Court Transcripts

    IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 

FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF LOUISIANA 

NEW ORLEANS, LOUISIANA 

RONALD CHISOM, ET AL 

_ versus 

EDWIN EDWARDS, ET AL 

CIVIL ACTION 

NO. 86-4075 

SECTION "A" 

APPEARANCES: 

Judith Reed 
Roy J. Rodney, Jr. 
Sharalyn Iffil 

William P. Quigley 

Ronald Wilson 

Robert S. Berman 
Steven Rosenbaum 
Lora Treadway . 

Robert G. Pugh 

Moise Dennery 

NAACP Legal Defense Fund 
99 Hudson Street 
New York, New York 10013 
Attorneys for Plaintiff 

901 Convention Center 
Fulton Place, Suite 119 
New . Orleans, Louisiana 70130 
Attorney for Plaintiffs 

837 Gravier Street, Suite 310 
New Orleans, Louisiana 70112 
Attorney fbr Plaintiffs 

U. S. Department of Justice 
Civil Rights Division 
P. 0. Box 66128 
Washington, D. C. 20035 
Attorneys for the United States 

Commercial National Tower 
333 Texas Street, Suite 2100 
Shreveport, Louisiana 71101 
Attorney for Defendants 

601 Poydras Street 
New Orleans, Louisiana 70130 
Attorney for Defendants 

David A. Zarek, CSR, RPR, CP 
Registered Professional Court Reporter. 

Hale Boggs Building, Suite 323 

500 Camp Street 

New. Orleans, Louisiana. 70130 



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A. R. Christovich 1900 American Bank Building 
New Orleans, Louisiana 70130 

• Attorney for Defendants 

(This matter came on for bench trial on the merits on 

Wednesday, April 5, 1989, in the Courtroom, United States - 

Courthouse, 500 Camp Street, New Orleans, Louisiana; 

HONORABLE CHARLES SCHWARTZ, JR., District Judge, presiding.) 



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PROCEEDINGS 

MORNING SESSION 

(Wednesday; April 5, 1989) 

(Court convened at 9:30 a.m.) 

DEPUTY NELSON: Ronald Chisom, et al, versus Edwin 

Edwards, et al. 

THE COURT: Counsel for plaintiff ready to proceed? 

MS. REED: Yes, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Counsel for defendants ready to proceed? 

MR. PUGH: Yes, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: I guess the Counsel should state their 

appearances for the record. 

MS. REED: Your Honor, representing the plaintiffs, 

Ronald Chisom, _t al, is myself, Judith Reed, Roy Rodney and 

Bill Quigley and Ron Wilson. 

MR. BERMAN: For the United States is myself, Robert 

Berman, Steve Rosenbaum and Lora Treadway. 

MR. PUGH: May it please the Court, on behalf of the 

defendants I'm Robert G. Pugh. I have at Counsel table 

representing the defendants Mr. Christovich, Mr. Woodard and 

Mr. Dennery. Thank you, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: I understand the attorneys for the 

intervenors are present but are not participating in this 

phase of the trial. 

MR. LANDRIEU: Moon Landrieu on behalf of intervenor, 



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Justice Pascal Calogero only representing on the remedy of 

damages, not on this part of the trial. 

MR. BUTLER: Peter Butler representing intervenor, Walter 

Marcus only with respect to the remedy and not with respect 

to the merits. We will not be participating in this 

particular proceeding. 

THE COURT: All right. 

MS. REED: We are ready to proceed then. 

THE COURT: Let's introduce all of the plaintiffs' 

exhibits at this time and just introduce them by number to 

which there is no objection. 

MR. BERMAN: On behalf of the United States as intervenor 

Exhibits 1 through 49. 

THE COURT: Is there any objection to intervenor United 

States Exhibits 1 through 49? 

MR. PUGH: No, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Let them be received in evidence. 

MS..REED: Your Honor, at this time we would move 

Plaintiffs' Ronald Chisom, et al, Exhibits No. 1 through 6 

into evidence. 

THE COURT: Any objection to Ronald Chisom's Exhibits 1 

through 6 being received in evidence? 

MR. PUGH: No, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: There being no objection, let them be 

received in evidence. 



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MR. PUGH: On behalf of the defendants, Exhibits 1 

through 4, Your Honor. I think an objection was posed as to 

3 at one time. I don't know whether it is still a viable 

objection. 

THE COURT: Any objection to Defendants' Exhibits 1 

through 4? 

MR. BERMAN: Yes, the United States object's to No. i 

based on relevancy. It contains no factual matter, it is 

merely a footnote from a legal brief. 

MR. PUGH: May I respond to that, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: I think that's the footnote mentioned in the 

memorandum, is that correct? 

MR. PUGH: It is also in the memorandum, Your Honor. 
•• • 

THE COURT: Well, I am going to receive it in evidence. 

I could even take judicial coghizance of it, but I will 

receive it in evidence over the objection. For what and how 

much weight and effect I will give to it is not indicated by 

the fact that I am receiving it in evidence. 

MR. PUGH: Yes, Your Honor. 

MR. BERMAN: Your Honor, we have a or will have an 

objection based on relevancy to a portion of the expert's 

report, one of the expert's reports. Would you like the 

objection now or as a portion of the testimony? . 

THE COURT: You can object to it at the time the expert 

files his report. 



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MR. PUGH: Your Honor, the defendants would like to move 

for the exclusion of all of the fact witnesses to be under 

the rule to be called timely. We have an agreement with the 

parties that the experts would be able to stay. 

THE COURT: I wouldn't exclude any expert witnesses. I 

would sequester all of them who are --

MR. BERMAN: The United States would object to that. The 

lay witnesses are all lawyers, they are officers of the 

Court. 

THE COURT: That's a ridiculous -- now, wait a minute, 

don't make ridiculous objections. You know that there is no 

basis for that. I'm going to exclude and I don't know why 

you would want them in here anyhow. That's a ridiculous 

statement. All fact witnesses have to be, should be excluded 

.when anybody requests it. That's what they do in my Court. 

I don't know what Courts you have been practicing in, but we 

don't do that down here. 

MR. PUGH: Thank you, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: All of you who are going to be fact witnesses 

please stand. The fact that they are lawyers doesn't, I have 

never heard of an argument like that, the fact that they are 

lawyers that means they shouldn't be excluded because --

what's the purpose of excluding somebody? 

MR. BERMAN: No, Your Honor, that was not the entire 

purpose of the statement. 



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THE COURT: What's the rest of it? I want to hear this, 

this ought to be interesting. 

MR. BERMAN: Your Honor, this is a important trial and 

THE COURT: All trials are important. Does the 

Government think we try cases that aren't important? It 

depends upon the person with a $1,000 claim may think he is 

just as important as Government thinks they are in this case. 

MR. BERMAN: I understand that, Your Honor. And THE COURT: That detracts from the rest of everything you 

are going to say. 

MR. BERMAN: This is --

THE COURT: Go ahead. 

MR. BERMAN: This is a class action that has been 

certified. 

THE COURT: Class actions are no different. 

MR. BERMAN: ' And that --

THE COURT: We must be going to different law schools or 

read different documents. Go ahead. So far you haven't told 

me anything. 

MR. BERMAN: Your Honor, the fact that these. are fact 

witnesses, and the United States is very aware that the 

motion of any party that they may be excluded we would just 

point out to the Court that this is a case that has extreme 

amount of significance to a lot of people.. And for that 

reason because it involves the witnesses who ere attorneys 



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who --

THE COURT: Attorneys are exempt from that. 

MR. BERMAN: I understand that, Your Honor, and would 

just like to make that as --

THE COURT: Well, you made your point. All right, all of 

you -- how many fact witnesses do we have? 

MR. RODNEY: We have 4 who are present here, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: All of you are attorneys? 

MR. RODNEY: In fact, just 2 of them, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Well, who else are the attorneys? 

MR. RODNEY: Mr. Melvin Zeno to the left and Anderson 

Council to the right. 

THE COURT: Aul right, as to all of you who are going to 

be fact: witnesses in this case, the Court enters the 

following order of sequestrat'ion: After a witness has 

.testified in this case, he shall not reveal to a witness who 

has not been previously called the questions asked or the 

responses given while on the witness stand. Likewise, a 

witness who has not been called shall not attempt to find out 

directly or indirectly the questions asked or the responses 

given by a witness who has previously testified. While the 

attorneys may discuss the case with their clients and their 

witnesses, they shall not in such discussions either directly 

or indirectly reveal to a witness who. has not testified the 

questions asked or the responses given by any witness who has 



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previously testified. 

I charge and direct the attorneys in this case to pass 

this order of sequestration along to any witnesses who may 

have been subpoenaed by t:::m or under their control. And I 

charge and direct the named parties also to be responsible 

seeing that this order is enforced. 

If this order is disobeyed, I will consider that 

appropriate sanctions should be imposed including contempt, 

striking of a claim or a defense, prohibiting a witness from 

testifying. I have given this similar order in about every 

time a sequestration order has been requested I don't know 

how many times in the last 13 years, and never once has the 

order been disobeyed. And I am confident that these 

witnesses will keep my record 100 percent. In view of .that 

order, you will have to wait out in the hall until you are 

called to testify. 

MR. PUGH: Excuse me, Your Honor, we may have one other 

thing that needs the Court to address. 

THE COURT: Let me say this: So far I have read 

everything everybody has written. It looks like we are 

acting responsibly. I can't help but notice that the 

Government's motion not to have these people excluded was 

frivolous. This is a very serious matter. I don't intend to 

be taken up with frivolous motions or motions for some 

tactical advantage, and I am not going to tolerate it. 



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MR. PUGH: Your Honor, this doesn't fall into either one 

of. those categories I *don't believe. I got a call yesterday 

concerning the possibility of the witness testifying who was, 

as the plaintiff said, inadvertently left off of the pre-

trial listing. Obviously I have no objection., but I think it 

is a matter that the Court needs to address. 

THE COURT: Well, who is the witness? 

MR. RODNEY: Your Honor, we would like to move to amend 

the pre-trial order to include Mr. Marc Morial, one of the 

named plaintiffs, as a may-call witness in this case. 

THE COURT: Well, was he ever deposed? 

MR. RODNEY: No, but he was included on our witness list. 

was not deposed. e 

• THE COURT: He was on your witness list? 

MR. RODNEY: Yes, he was. 

THE COURT: If he was on your witness list -- besides, if 

he is a named party, you don't even have to really put him on 

.the witness list if he is a named party. So he can testify. 

MR. PUGH:- Thank you, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Let's proceed. 

MR. RODNEY: Your Honor, at this time the plaintiffs 

would like to call as their first witness Judge Revius 0. 

Ortigue. • 

THE COURT: All right. 



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-HON. REVIUS 0. ORTIGUE, 

called as a witness at the instance of the plaintiffs, after 

having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as 

follows: 

BY THE WITNESS: 

A My name is Revius O. Ortigue. 

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. RODNEY: 

Q Judge Ortigue, where are you employed now? 

A I'm employed by the State of Louisiana. 

THE COURT: Look, we know who the Judge is. Why don't 

you just lead him on those things. Propose a stipulation as 

to where he is employed. We don't want to be wasting our 

time with matters that are not in dispute. Nobody is even 

going to object if you lead him and say that he is a Judge in 

the Civil District Court, how long he has been a Judge. Just 

go ahead and stipulate. Those matters should be stipulated 

to. 

MR. RODNEY: Thank you, Your Honor. I will be happy to 

lead him in that area. 

THE COURT: Well, go ahead. Nobody is going to object. 

BY MR. RODNEY: 

Q Judge Ortigue, you are a Judge in the Civil District 

Court for the Parish of Orleans? 

A Yes, I am. 



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Q And you are a former Chief of the Civil District foP the 

Parish of Orleans, is that correct? 

A Yes, I was. 

Q You have been a Judge since 1979? 

A Yes. 

Q And prior to your election as a Judge, you were a 

practicing attorney in the State of Louisiana, is that not 

correct? 

A Yes. 

Q And as a practicing attorney in the State of Louisiana, 

you were involved in numerous Bar activities including 

activities in the Louisiana State Bar Association and the 

National Bar Association, is that correct? 

A Yes, I was. 

Q And you have served as a past president of the National 

Bar Association? 

A Yes, I have. 

Q And I believe that you are the only lawyer in this 

country who has served twice as the President of the National 

Bar Association? 

No, I was the last person to serve for two terms. They 

have since constitutionally nullified that possibility. 

Whether that was good or bad I don't know but that's what has 

happened. 

Q As a lawye- ]Irior to your election to the bench of the 



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Civil District Court, you had an opportunity to serve on the 

Board of Legal Services? 

A Legal Services Corporation, yes. I was appointed first 

by President Ford to the Legal Services Corporation Board and 

was subsequently appointed by President Carter to the Legal 

Services Corporation Board. I am the only person who has, 

who was appointed for two full terms. 

Q And also prior to your election to the Civil District 

Court Bench, you served your country at the request of 

President Nixon on the Scranton Commission? 

A Yes, I did. I served -- President Nixon appointed me to 

the Scranton Commission, President Johnson appointed me to 

the Federal Hospital Council. 

And you also served on a similar State commission- at the 

request of the Attorney General of Louisiana in 1972 to deal 

with campus unrest at Southern University and other colleges, 

is that correct? 

A Yes, by the then Attorney General, present Attorney 

General, the Honorable William Guste. I also served as 

President of the National Legal Aid and Defender Association 

at the time when they had 42,000 members throughout the 

United States. I was the first black who was ever elected to 

that position. 

And. you are the first black to have ever served as a 

Judge on a Civil District Court in Orleans Parish? 

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A Yes. 

Q Judge Ortigue, in 1972 you made a.run for the Louisiana 

Supreme Court in the First Supreme District, did you not? 

A Yes, I did. 

Q. And could you tell the Court why you ran for that 

position? 

A Well, primarily because I wanted to serve on the Supreme 

Court but also -- and I think of equal significance, because 

I-felt that it was time that a black person be permitted to 

serve on that august body. There had never to my knowledge 

been a person to serve as a member of that Court, and I felt. 

since the population of blacks in this State was significant 

that we should have someone that would feel the sensitivity 

that blacks feel toward each other and towards their own 

culture. 

Q Does the support that you received in that election in 

terms of election vbtes, was this, in fact, from the black 

community? 

A Primarily almost solely, as a matter of fact, from the 

black community. 

What sort of support did you receive from the other 

parishes that make up the First Supreme Court District: 

Jefferson, St. Bernard and Plaquemines? 

A Very insignificant, almost nil. 

we can for a moment, Judge, I would like to talk about 



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your campaign activities in that 1972 election. I would like 

you to outline for the Court those rallies that you were able 

to attend in St. Bernard; Jefferson and Plaquemines and 

describe for the Court if you will the sort of political 

activities you attended in those parishes. 

A I was not invited to any rally in the Parishes of 

Jefferson, St. Bernard or Plaquemines Parish. I did 

participate in St. Bernard Parish in a home of a black 

individual who was entertaining candidates, and I was invited 

to that private home to participate in a very small forum. 

There was no other activity to which I was invited, nor did I 

attend. 

Q Did you receive any support from any elected officials in 

either Jefferson, St. Bernard or Plaquemines Parish? 

No, I did not, not in 1972. 

Q And did you receive any support from any organized 

political organizations in any of those parishes? 

A Yes, in Orleans Parish. 

Q No, in St. Bernard, Jefferson or Plaquemines? 

A No, I did not. T was called, I was called to the home of 

one of the principal elected officials in Jefferson Parish, 

who at that time was the Assessor of Jefferson Parish. He 

asked me to come up to his home to discuss my candidacy. I 

sat down with him, and he indicated to me that he was very 
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impressed with my credentials he had asked me to send to him, 



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but that he could not support me because I could not win. 

Those were his exact words. 

Q Did he say to you why you could not win? 

MR. PUGH: May it please the Court, if I may I would like 

to object to any testimony that is beyond this man's, that is 

to say, what some other witness testified. 

THE COURT: Sustained, it is hearsay. 

BY MR. RODNEY: 

Q In 1979 you ran for election to the Civil District Court. 

Can you tell the Court some of the circumstances surrounding 

your decision to run for the Civil District Court? 

I had served as a member of the Court for Division "B" of 

that Court at the appointment of the Supreme Court of the 

State af Louisiana. I had been recommended by the Justices 

Marcus and Calogero for that position, and I was thus 

appointed. I think my term commenced, my ad hoc term 

commenced in May of 1973 and continued through October of 

1978. 

Q What sort of qualifications did you have to run for the 

position of Judge of the Civil District Court? 

I had been in the practice for about, for over 20 years 

in the active practice. I had been a sole practitioner 

initially, but toward the end of my active practice I had 

been joined by 2 or 3 lawyers who came and served time in my 

office. I trained 2 lawyers right out of law school in my 



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office. I had served in many capacities in my community in 

support of community activities, and I had been invited by 

the Governor as well as the Mayor to serve on various legal 

committees. I was the first person, the first black person, 

to be elected to the House of Delegates -- that's elected, 

not appointed -- •to be elected to the House of Delegates of 

the Louisiana State Bar Association, and I had served as one 

of the authors of the Code of Professional Conduct at the 

invitation, request and appointment of the President of the 

Louisiana State Bar Association. 

Q Judge Ortigue, can you tell the Court in more detail what 

sort of community activities you were involved in? 

A Oh, I was involved in, . I suppose my greatest honor was 

becoming the first black person to be elected to the 

Metropolitan Area Committee: That's considered one of the 

most influential groups in the metropolitan area, and I was 

Chairman of the Health, Educational Authority of the State of 

Louisiana. My name appears on 3 public buildings in the 

metropolitan area as a result of my having been Chairman of 

that committee. 

I served as a member of the Board of the United Way for 

many, many years. I have served on the Advisory Council even 

though I am not a Catholic on their Advisory Council to the 

Archbishop's Community Appeals Program. 

I have served 5 times as President of the Urban League of 



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Greater New Orleans. I could go on and on. I have just had 

many honors and many blessings, too many to count. 

In the capacity of your service yith the Metropolitan 

Area Committee, you, in fact, have served as their President, 

is that correct? 

A I did. 

Q And in addition to the community activities that you have 

outlined above, prior to your election in 1979, •you served as 

a member of the Advisory Board of the Lafont Home? 

A Yes, as a member of the Advisory Board: 

THE COURT: No one has interrupted you, but I don't 

understand the purpose of this line of questioning. 

MR. RODNEY: I am moving prior to his election in 1979, 

Your Honor, to show the qualifications that Judge Ortigue 

had. 

THE COURT: No one is questioning his qualifications. 

MR. RODNEY: Well, I am establishing --

THE COURT: I will take judicial cognizance that he was 

eminently qualified from both legal training and community 

activities -- in fact,.. I was on some of those boards with him 

-- to run for the office that he sought for which he was 

elected. 

MR. RODNEY: Thank you, Your Honor. We appreciate it. I 

will move on to other activities. 

BY MR. RODNEY: 



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In that 1979 election can you tell the Court whether or 

not you received the endorsement of any political 

organizations at that time? 

A For the second time I received endorsements of DOLE and 

though I received endorsements of COUP, SOUL, RDO, the . 

Alliance for Good Government. I had a panorama of support in 

1979. 

Q And would it be correct for me to describe the Alliance 

for Good Government, the Regular Democratic Organization 

which you have described as the RDO and the Eagles 

Organization as primarily white political? 

A Oh, yes, I should have mentioned also Eagles. That was 

the then the late Sheriff Stire's organization, and I 

received unanimous support from that organization. 

Q And did ydu also receive in your election in 1979 the 

support of some of the political officials in Orleans Parish? 

A Yes, I had the support of Mayor Ernest Morial, several of 

the Assessors, the Civil Sheriff, the Criminal Sheriff, other 

parochial officials. 

Would this have included both white and black officials 

in the Parish of Orleans? 

A Yes, very much so. 

Q And I know that you have outlined a lot of your Bar 

Association activities, and the Judge took cognizance of your 

activities. But did you receive the support of the New 



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Orleans Bar Association in your 1979 election? 

A No, I did not. 

Do you know why? 

A No, I do not know. I know that -- I know as a fact of my 

own knowledge having watched those New Orleans Bar 

Association polls that no black has ever received the support 

of the New Orleans Bar Association if he was opposed by a 

white candidate. 

Q Judge, prior to your election in 1979 had you received 

the support or the recognition of local groups and local 

media? 

A In 1975 the TIMES-PICAYUNE on a Sunday editorial page 

indicated in an unsolicited statement that I was well 

qualified to be a member of the Federal Bench and indicated 

its support in response to some discussions by members, by 

the 2 members of our Senate, as to whether I should be 

supported for the Federal Bench at that time. 

Q So they also supported you in your 1979 election? 

A No, the TIMES-PICAYUNE did not support me in my '79 

election indicating that they could not make the choice 

between my opponent and myself. 

Q What was your opponent's service to the legal community 

at that time prior to --

From my own knowledge? 

Q Yes, from the knowledge you have gained during the course 



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of the. campaign. 

A He apparently had little or no community activities. 

Q Was he incumbent Judge? 

A No. 

Q Was he, could you tell the Court whether he was white or 

black? 

A He was white. 

BY THE COURT: 

Q Who was the opponent at that time? 

A Pat Riley. 

MR..RODNEY: That would be all the questions that the 

plaintiffs have. 

THE COURT: All right. 

.MR. PUGH: May it please the Court, 1: -17.ink we talked 

earlier if it is all right with the Court that they would go 

and then I would go last. 

THE COURT: That's correct. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION 

BY MR. BERHAN: 

Q Turning your attention to that same 1979 race, Judge 

Ortigue, I would like to call your attention to what's been 

marked as United States Exhibit 18, which appears at the' 

chart to your side there. And •those are the numbers of the 

estimates of the percent of votes you received from black 

voters and white voters. And in turning your attention to 



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the general election, the parties have stipulated that 

between 98 and 99 percent of the black voters of Orleans 

Parish voted for you, and between 13 to 15 percent of the 

white voters in Orleans Parish voted for you. What's your 

reaction to those numbers? 

A Well, I'm not surprised at the vote from the black 

community. By that time I had received acclaim from the 

black community as well as the white community I suppose I 

had received every possible award that one could receive by 

1979 including the National Conference of Christians and 

Jews, the NAACP Award, the Urban League Award, the other 

civic awards. So I'm not surprised; as a matter of fact, in 

a poll taken recently I know of my own knowledge that my name 

recognition is very high in this community and has continued 

to be very high. I was surprised at the small support that I 

got from the white community in 

community activities across the 

been President of MAC, I would 

have assumed that I would have 

Having been very much involved 

as well as the Criminal Courts 

view of my participation in 

board; for example, having 

have assumed in 1977, I 

gotten greater support. 

in the juvenile justice 

would 

system 

in aiding counsel across the 

board I thought I would have gotten more support, certainly 

having been one to have 

support of various 

traveled across this country in 

hospitals, particularly the private 

hospitals in this community that were put in an advantageous 



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position by my service on the Federal Hospital Council I 

would. have thought that I would have gotten greater support 

The Federal Hospital Council was the group that determined 

all of the Hilbert money throughout the United States, and at 

that time at the time that I served we were participating at 

the local as well as the regional levels 

the development of hospitals. Certainly 

Louisiana and in New Orleans had secured 

providing funds for 

hospitals in 

some of those funds. 

Q With regard to your 1984 election, were you challenged in 

1984 for re-election to the bench? 

A No, I did not have any opponent. 

Q You have stated that you ran for Supreme Court in 1972. 

Have you considered running for the Supreme Court again? 

A Yes. According to the newspapers recently said I had 

announced -- I have not announced, but I have indicated to 

the Ethics Committee, I wrote to the Ethics Committee saying, 

Look, there are some people who are 

for me, what should my position be? 

a response; although the newspapers 

beginning to raise money 

And I have not received 

reported that the Ethics 

Committee said that that committee must make some responses. 

Did you consider running in 1988? 

A I considered it, but so long as it was going to remain a 

4-parish race, my supporters, my advisors as well as myself 

concluded that that would not be an appropriate thing to do. 

I do not wish to lose or to begin any race from this moment 



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in my life where I don't think that I have a real strong 

possibility of winning. There is no advantage. 

Q Why don't you think you have a strong possibility of 

winning? 

A Well, No. 1, I know of no black candidate who has been 

successful in Plaquemines Parish. I know of none who has 

been successful in St. Bernard Parish, although I think that 

I have seen in the news media that some persons serve, but I 

am not aware of how they got elected or what the situation 

was. But I do know that I would feel intimidated, I 

personally would feel intimidated campaigning in Plaquemines 

Parish and even in St. Bernard Parish at this time, that is 

beyond this number of years, beyond 1972. 

Q Have you had any occasion to visit any of the parishes 

outside Orleans in yOur r;apacity as .Judge? 

A Yes, sir. I remember distinctly that about a year-and-a-

half ago it was appropriate for me to go and hold a session 

of Court at a site in Plaquemines Parish at the request of 

all of the litigants. And we went down there, but because of 

my concerns for the safety of myself as well as my staff --

this was going to be out in an open oilfield -- I assisted 

that the Sheriff of Orleans Parish, the Civil Sheriff 

arranged with the Sheriff of Plaquemines Parish for my 

presence in that parish. Acting in an official capacity as a 

Judge, I felt it would be a little strange in that parish for 



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some of the people who live in that parish and there was no 

doubt that the officials of that parish felt that it would be 

a little strange because from the time that we entered the • 

parish there were sheriffs posted 

at us or. waved us on, let us know 

obvious because Of course, it., was 

at various points 

that we are going 

we were traveling 

who waved 

through. 

in 

sheriff's vans, and they were well marked. 

Q Based on your experience in running judicial campaigns in 

Orleans Parish and having considered and then rejecting a run 

for Supreme Court in 1988, what would you 

to gather votes in Jefferson Parish to be 

voters in Jefferson Parish, approximately 

base your ability 

among the black 

what percent of the 

vote of' the black citizens of Jefferson Parish could You 

obtain? 

That's difficult to say, although I would have to 

acknowledge that I have very strong relations with some of 

the black persons 

Council person in 

towns up there, I 

in Jefferson Parish. For example, the 

one of the smaller areas, townships or 

have a relationship with that lady. I have • 

a relationship with persons who live in Gretna. It would be 

hard to say because frequently those persons are influenced 

by the local politics there and the local politicians. But 

if I had a free shot at gathering those votes, I think that I 

would get a strong, substantial vote. My name recognition is 

there in Jefferson Parish, also. 



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Q• What about among the white voters in Jefferson Parish, 

what.percent would you reasonably expect to obtain from those 

voters? 

A As a reasonable person based on the reports of the very 

last election where a black candidate who has the support of 

what I consider a very strong political force in Jefferson 

Parish got very little support, certainly would get very 

little support, I believe. 

Q And the other 2 parishes, St. Bernard and Plaquemines, 

what percent of the white vote could you reasonably expect to 

obtain from those voters? 

A I don't think I would get any significant vote. I don't 

think I would get any, as a matter of fact, in those 2 

parishes. 

Q Based on your experience as a Judge for 10 years, are you 

aware of rationale in terms of judicial admission for 

electing 2 Judges from a multi-Judge district that consists 

of 4 parishes, are you aware of any reason for that? 

A I can only ascribe it to the --

MR. PUGH: May it please the Court,. I believe what's 

being sought is an opinion out of a witness who is a fact 

witness. 

THE COURT: I sustain the objection to that because --

MR. BERMAN: I have no further questions, Your Honor. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION 



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BY MR. PUGH: 

Q Good morning, Judge. 

A Good morning. 

Q It isn't really fair that you speak in terms of very 

little vote or no vote, that that's really pure speculation, 

is it not, on your part? 

A I wouldn't say it is pure speculation, Mr. Pugh, because 

I think that it can be demonstrated that there has been 

continuing to be a hostile attitude in Plaquemines Parish, 

for example, as well as St. Bernard Parish toward black. 

people. 

Q You mentioned one of the races by which you concluded 

this to be a problem and just for the purpose of the record 

please tell us what race that was that you just alluded to. 

To refresh your memory, I believe you testified that there 

was a race recently in Jefferson Parish where even though 

they had a substantial amount of white support --

A .Even though they had a strong person from the political 

community, that was Mr. Zeno's race in which the Assistant 

District Attorney and Mr. Mamoulides came out politically 

saying that he was supporting him, and I know personally of 

Mr. Mamoulides' influence in the Parish of Jefferson. 

Q He is the District Attorney there? 

A He is the District Attorney there, yes, sir. 

Q Let's refer back. for a moment to the 1972 race that you 



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entered. At that time-I believe there were 2 available 

seats?. 

A Yes. 

Q Why did you pick the particular one that you picked to 

run for as distinguished from perhaps running for the other 

one? 

A Well, I picked that one because, No. 1, I was, I had not 

been on the bench. I felt at that time the leading candidate 

in that race was the now Justice Calogero who also had not 

been on the bench. And 2 I recognized that I was going to be 

running a grass roots campaign and that I felt that I would 

not be able to raise the kind of money that would be involved 

in the other race. 

-Looking at that, and this is certainly no reflection on 

Justice Calogero, but my impression at that time was that he 

was not well heeled in the sense that he had a lot of support 

from people who had money. So I chose him as being the 

opponent. Two (2) things I think you need in a race, one 

is --

Q Weak candidate? 

A 
rs. And money. If you can have both -- but I was going after 

the people. 

Q Is it not the race that Calogero and Sarpy, all 3 

involved in? 

A Yes, yes. 



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The other one you say there was no previous candidate, I 

mean the candidate had no previous experience. Who in the 

other race had previous experience? 

A Justice Marcus. 

Q And had been sitting? 

A •He had sat on the bench, yes,sir. 

Isn't it true in that 1972 race that a *substantial number 

of blacks crossed over and supported Calogero? 

A No question about it, but you have got to remember that 

Mr. Landrieu was the Mayor, and he was the first mayor who 

had given to black people any hope of participating in the 

political process, any strong real broad-based hope. And 

blacks in large numbers came to me and said, Look, I would 

love to support you. 

I don't want you to testify as to what somebody else said 

if you don't mind. 

A All right. But I was not, I was not giving that 

information for the truth or falsity of what it was but to 

just give you a flavor of what was going on. These persons 

were concerned that they had to demonstrate their loyalty to 

anyone who had given them even a semblance of equality, and 

Mr. Landrieu I would prefer if he wasn't in the room, but 

he is in the room -- he had given them their first real hope. 

Q What about money in that campaign, can you compare 

perhaps what you spent with what some of the others spent in 



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that Campaign? 

Mine was insignificant, intentionally insignificant 

because T was depending upon the black community to support 

me. But let me say this: That there were persons that I 

know personally who contributed to Mr. Justice Calogero's 

campaign who stated to me unequivocally talking about black 

persons. 

We are back into the facts. Please don't tell me what - 

somebody else told you. 

A I'm talking about, I know, I saw the, it came to me by 

way of communication that they were contributing to Mr. 

Justice CaIogero's campaign and not to mine, or they were 

contributing to his in large measure and to mine as in a 

token fashion so that I would know that they supported nib. 

Q Well, actually Mr. Sarpy got more votes in Orleans than 

Mr. Calogero, didn't he, at that time, did he not? 

No question about it in the first primary. 

Q May I move on to your '79 race. As I understand it, you 

were appointed I believe you said through the encouragement 

or the assistance of Justice Marcus and Justice Calogero, 

they being in this area to serve on the Civil Bench? 

A Yes. 

take it that you were appointed to one Division and you 

ran in another one, or you wouldn't have been able to run 

under the then Constitution, is that correct? 



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A Yes. 

That's what you did? 

A There is a prohibition since you mentioned that, 

Counselor, I think the record ought to accurately reflect 

that until such time as blacks became -- these are 

demonstrable facts -- until such time as blacks became a 

force in the political arena in Orleans Parish, that was not 

the law. Most of the, my brothers on the bench that I served 

served as appointees, ran as incumbents and were elected as 

incumbents or did not have any opposition at all. When 

blacks became a political force in our community, that law 

was passed by our Louisiana Legislature. 

BY THE COURT: 

Q Well, doesn't it work the other way, wouldn't it if the 

whites control the Legislature or the whites control the 

appointments they would appoint a white, and he would run 

against an incumbent? I don't follow that. Changing the law 

helped the blacks, but maybe you can explain that to me. 

A It hurt the blacks. 

I don't agree with you. But anyhow, it didn't make any 

difference. I don't think that makes any difference, but I 

don't follow you on that one. 

BY MR. PUGH: 

Q Isn't it a fact that it was not the Legislature but it 

was the Constitution of the State of Louisiana that made that 



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change? 

A Well, of course, all matters that are voted on by the 

people in our State first pass through the Legislature. 

Q Well, the Louisiana Constitution of 1974 didn't pass 

through the Legislature? 

A Well, that's true but this was initiated in the 

Legislature is my belief. 

Q You then were an incumbent in 1979 when you ran for 

election, you were incumbent Judge, you were sitting as a 

Judge, though admittedly in another Division7 

A No, I was not. 

You were not? 

A I was not. My ad hoc judgeship ended in October, and I 

think the race was the next month was a very short time 

between, however. 

Q You would concede that you benefited from having been an 

incumbent as it related to that record? 

A I would think so, I would think so. 

Q And is it fair to say that none of the other candidates 

in that race had any prior judicial experience either by 

appointment or election? 

A Except one, Mr. Alhon (phono) had been serving as a 

commissioner, which, of course, is a quasi-judicial position 

in Orleans Parish. 

A commissioner I take it would be by appointment or 



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ele.ction that he serves for the benefit of the bench to do 

certain functions-for them, is that the case? 

A Yes, they wear robes and do all the things that we Judges 

do except t'y jury cases. 

Q At this time was the, the blacks in Orleans Parish were 

they a majority of the electorate in 1979? 

A They were a majority of the population, I'm not sure 

whether it was very close at that time, maybe they were 51, 

52 percent, I say maybe. The more I think about it it was 

just close. 

Q And we are talking about --

A 1979.-

Q Qualified to vote in 1979, not population but qualified 

to vote? 

A Yes, it may have been a slight majority, but I doubt it. 

Q Do you recall whether or not a lot of money was spent on 

that particular campaign? 

A A lot of money was spent on the general election. I 

considered it a lot of money. I spent about a $125,000 but 

that's only because my opponent had a lot of money, a lot 

more money. 

Q In 1979 that was a substantial sum to be spending' on 

electoral race for --

A Judgeship. 

-- judgeship, was it not? 



35 

A Yes, sure. 

Q And I believe early on on direct examination you had 

indicated that you have already gotten money coming in or 

available to come in for a race for you if you elected to 

make a race as it relates to the First Judicial District? 

A The chairman -my committee told me that it was about 

,,000. I don't know what it is today because I told them I 

don't want to know. 

Q. I see. And that race ordinarily would not be until 1982, 

is that correct? 

I have no idea. I'm hoping it is sooner. 

Q Well, let's put it this way: Under the existing law 

that's the next scheduled election would be 1992, would it 

not? 

A Yes. 

Q Thank you very much, Judge. I tender the witness. 

THE COURT: Any redirect? 

. REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. RODNEY: 

Judge, when you ran in your 1979 race, who did you 

receive the majority of your contributions from, was it 

blacks or whites?' 

A The black community definitely. 

Q So they supported you by giving you financial 

co.ntributions? 



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A Yes. 

When your. appointment ended prior to your election in 

1979, did you have to leave your judicial offices and -leave 

your staff and return to private practice at that time? 

A Yes. When my ad hoc appointment ended, I left the staff 

and returned back to my office. 

Q And then you met with your supporters and you decided to 

run for an elected office? 

A Yes. 

Q Is that correct? 

A Yes. Judge Oliver, the late Judge Oliver Garriere 

retired. • 

Q Okay, thank you. 

THE COURT: Any other questions? 

MR. RODNEY: May I ask one more? 

THE COURT: Sure. 

BY MR. RODNEY: 

Q Judge Ortigue, if this suit is unsuccessful, would you 

consider running in the 1992 Louisiana Supreme Court election 

in the 4-parish area? 

A No, no. That's definitely out. As I indicated, at my 

age now I don't intend to seek any position that I don't feel 

very comfortable of winning. If I were to run from Orleans 

Parish only, I would feel very, very comfortable. I'm sure 

that I could raise the necessary funds, and I just think that 



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would receive overwhelming support in Orleans Parish 

particularly from the black community. 

*Q Thank you. 

RECROSS EXAMINATION 

BY MR. BE 

Q Judge Ortigue, the next election is 1992 or 1990? 

A I think it was 1990, but I was given Mr. Pugh credit for 

knowing better than I, and so I would not certainly would not 

dispute that. He said 1992, I thought it was 1990. I would 

hope that by that time Orleans Parish will be a Supreme Court 

District. If it is, I definitely will run. 

MR. BERMAN: No further questions, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: All right, thank you. 

(Witness is excused.) 

THE COURT: Call your next witness. 

MS. REED: It would be Bernette J. Johnson. While the 

witness is coming, I want to take care of an omission that I 

incurred this morning. I forge; to introduce also sitting at 

the table co-Counsel for plaintiffs Ms. Sharilyn (phon.) 

Iffil, I-f-f-i-1, who is an attorney with the Legal Defense 

Fund and also assisting.. 

THE COURT: Thank you. 



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HON. BERNETTE J. JOHNSON, 

called as an expert at the instance- of the plaintiffs., after 

having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as 

follows: 

BY DEPUTY NELSON: 

Please be seated and state your name for the record. 

A My name is Bernette Johnson. 

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MS. TREADWAY: 

Q Lora Treadway for the United .States, plaintiff 

i-tervenor. Would you please state your race? 

A I'm black. 

Q And you are presently a Civil District Court Judge in 

Division. "I" for Orleans Parish, are you not? 

A That's correct. 

Q And you were elected to this position in 1984? 

A Yes. 

Q And that is the only time that you have been elected to 

public office? 

That's true. 

You have been a resident of Orleans Parish since you were 

a young child? 

•A That's correct 

And your elementary and secondary education was this 

entirely in Orleans Parish Schools? 



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A That's true. 

Q Were those schools racially segregated at the time you 

attended them? 

Completely segregated grades 1 through 12. 

Q After high school you attended Spellman College in 

Atlanta? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the racial makeup of Spellman when you were 

there? 

A It was black with some students of African descent, 

meaning from Kenya and other countries on the African 

Continent. I think we had a few Cubans, and the only white 

students we had were exchange students from other 

predominantly white colleges. 

Q You received your bachelor's degree from Spellman in 

1964? 

A That's right. 

Q You then returned to Louisiana to attend law school at 

Louisiana State University? 

A That's right. 

Q And you received your law degree in 1969? 

A That's correct. 

Q Do you recall the number of blacks who were in your 

graduating class from law school? 

A There was me and one other woman, Camille Grace 



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Poindexter, who is now residing in Virginia. 

Q And you have been a resident of New Orleans and are 

currently a. resident of New Orleans since you graduated from 

law school? 

A That's correct. 

Q Could you briefly describe your activities while you were 

in law school and after college. 

A Well, after college I worked first for the NAACP Legal 

Defense Fund. I did some commuhity organizing in several 

southern states, Louisiana was one of them, but I have also 

worked in Mississippi, Alabama, North and South Carolina, 

Tennessee. And my work basically was to give persons in the 

community information about recent school desegregation 

decisions that had been won in the courts for the lawyers for 

the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. I did that immediately after 

graduation from Spellman College. 

I then worked for a short time in New York City as a 

social worker with a foster care agency, then returned to 

Louisiana to attend law school. And each summer in law 

school I either worked for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, and 

then one summer I think following my second year of law 

school I worked for the Justice Department, Civil Rights 

Division. One of my tasks was to be a federal observer for 

elections in Greenwood, Mississippi, I believe. 

Q When you graduated from law school, what were the 



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employment opportunities for black lawyers in New Orleans? 

A It was very limited. I had a conference with our dean 

about placement opportunities in New Orleans. He had invited 

the members of the graduating class to come in if we were 

interested in assistance with employment. I said to him, 

"Dean Crawford, that I was interested in returning to New 

Orleans and was interested in knowing what the LSU Law School 

could do to assist me with some education, with some 

employment opportunities here." And the only suggestions I 

got from him were --

MR. PUGH: May it please the Court, I would object to any 

of the testimony that was given. 

THE COURT: Sustained. 

MS. TREADWAY: May I respond, Your Honor? We are asking 

these questions because Judge Johnson has a legal career here 

in Orleans Parish, and this case obviously involves the legal 

system. 

THE COURT: But the objection is what somebody told her 

is hearsay. If it is not used to prove the truth of the 

matter asserted, then what's the purpose of it? 

MS. TREADWAY: It is to establish what she based her 

legal 

THE COURT: Then all she has to say on the basis of 

information I did such and such and not tell us what somebody 

told her, then it-is not hearsay. 



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BY THE WITNESS: 

A All right. The only referrals I got from law school were 

to Attorney Ernest Morial and to Attorney Robert Collins, who 

were themselves black graduates of the LSU Law School. 

BY MS. TREADWAY: 

Q Where did you begin practicing law? 

A I did clerk for Ernest Morial. I have known him 

previously from my civil rights activities from at least 

1964. 

Q What was your first legal job after your clerkship? 

A My first employment as an attorney was with New Orleans 

Legal Assistance Corporation. I worked as a staff attorney 

and then as one of the managing attorneys for approximately 

five years. 

Q' And could you briefly describe your legal career since 

you left the New Orleans Legal Assistance Corporation. 

A After leaving NOLAC, I worked, did some private work as 

an attorney in the area of civil and criminal work. I then 

worked as an educational director for a national educational 

foundation, and one of the things I did was to set up 

internships for young people who are interested in going to 

law school. 

After that period I worked as an assistant city attorney 

and then a deputy city attorney for the City of New Orleans. 

I did defense work in the Civil District Court. I defended 



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police officers and police brutality cases here in the 

Federal Courts. I also handled Civil Service appeals for the 

City of New Orleans. I taught on the faculty at Southern 

University here in New Orleans. I have also done Civil 

Service appeals for the State as a referee. 

Q Could you describe what your professional affiliations 

are. 

A I am a member of the American Bar Association, the 

National Bar Association, the American Judges Association, 

the National Association of Women Judges, locally the Lewis 

Martinet Legal Society. 

Q Are any of these predominantly black organizations? 

A The National Bar Association and the Martinet Society are 

minority Bar Associations. 

Q And what particular activities have you been directly 

involved in with these organizations? 

A With the local Martinet Bar I am chair of the continuing 

legal education program. .We chaired, I chaired that program 

for about a year-and-a-half now. We have done 2 or 3 

seminars for local attorneys statewide, statewide programs 

for attorneys with the National Bar Association. I have 

chaired a luncheon for the Committee on Southern Africa where 

we awarded plaques to among others Randall Robertson with 

Trans-Africa because of his work with regard to anti-

apartheid activity. 



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Q Judge Johnson, turning to your political -involvement, 

have you sought other elective, other officers other than the 

judicial position to which you have been elected? 

A Yes, I think it was 1978 I ran for a vacancy on the 

Orleans Parish School Board. 

Q And what was the result of that? 

A I was, I ran third and was eliminated in the primary 

election. 

Q And was that an at-large, parish-wide election at that 

time? 

A Yes, it was. 

BY THE COURT: 

Q Which was it? 

A It was a parish-wide, .at-large election rather than a 

district. The Orleans Parish School Board has just recently 

divided into districts. Prior to 1987 or '83 I believe all 

of the seats were city-wide. 

BY MS. TREADWAY: 

Q And are there any other elective positions for which you 

have run? 

A I ran for a, in a district race, and I don't recall the. 

year. I ran -- well, it would have been, it had to be 1973. 

It was for the Constitutional Convention as a delegate to the 

Constitutional Convention. 

Q And what was the result of that? 



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A The race was won by our district representative, Johnny 

Jackson, who is now on the City Council here in New Orleans.. 

What motivated you to seek judicial office in 1984? 

I considered my background, my history of community 

involvement and decided to offer myself to the voters as a 

candidate. 

Q Have you been involved in other election campaigns 

besides? 

A Yes, I have. I have assisted other candidates running 

for judicial office. I have been involved in mayors' races, 

I have supported candidates in district races for House of 

Representatives, I have been politically. 

Q Were those primarily or exclusively black candidates for 

whom you worked? 

A T can't recall. I guess totally I have been involved, I 

guess, in presidential politics with some of those races, 

which, of course, would have been white candida 

Deciding to seek elective office, what was the principal 

requirement for you in 1984? 

Well, I think the requirement is probably the same for 

every candidate. To my way of thinking, to be a successful 

candidate requires some kind of background in civic work or 

civic activity service to community. One of the reasons you 

are successful is because people know who you are and what 

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don't know if I spoke about my involvement with regard to 

women!s issues, but one of the things I have done in the past 

was to work as a rape counselor to assist children and women 

and sometimes males who are victims of rape. I think my 

background in this area assisted me certainly with regard to 

appealing to activists in the women's movement. I early on 

organized 16cally in New Orleans a chapter of household 

workers so that they could receive Social Security benefits. 

That was in the 1970s. 

Q And are there any other community service activities that 

you have been directly involved in other than those you have 

already .described? 

A I am active in PTA, I am active at my church. I am now 

chair of a program where we feed the hungry on Wednesdays. 

am active in a lot of areas in civic; church work, Bar 

groups, et cetera. 

Q What was your first step when you began your 1934 

campaign? 

A What I wanted to do was to introduce myself as broadly as 

possible to persons in the community who might not have known 

me or my involvement or what I had done. And what I did 

initially was to write a letter to every elected official in 

Orleans Parish, all of the Assessors, all of the Councilmen, 

State Representatives, State Senators, the Registrar, to Mr. 

Demarest and the mortgage office, the conveyance office, 



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every person I found on that list of elected officials: I 

wrote them a letter saying who I was, what I was attempting 

to do, saying something briefly about my background of civic 

service, attached a resume of my educational credentials and 

asked for a meeting. My feeling was that even if this person 

didn't vote far me or couldn't suppo:'' me, it was important 

for them to know who I was because they obviously could 

influence other people. And so I wanted to sit down and meet 

with them and tell them who .I was and what I was attempting 

to do. And as a result of that I had a broad support from 

elected officials here in Orleans Parish when I ran for Judge 

in 1984. 

And what officials or what officials' support did you 

receive? 

A We 11, I received the Mayor's support because of our long 

involvement, and I guess the press said I was his protege. 

had known him since my law school years. I attended LSU Law 

School, he attended LSU Law School. 

I had the support of the Civil Sheriff Valteau. I had 

the support of Mr. Demarest in the mortgage office. I had 

the support of Dan Foley in the Clerk of Court's Office, 

several City Councilmen. I had the support of Assessors 

Deegan and Heaton in the Carrollton area, and I think it 

contributed substantially to my winning. 

And which of those persons are black? 



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A Of the persons I mentioned, Sheriff Valteau and the 

former Mayor Morial are black. I had endorsements, of 

course, from several State legislators. In my council 

district I had the support of Councilman --

BY THE COURT: 

I presume all of the others you mentioned were white? 

A Yes, yes. I had support of elected officials who were 

white. 

BY MS. TREADWAY: 

Q What was the value of their support? 

Well, I think it contributed.to the fact that I got 30 

percent of the white vote in September of '84. 

Q And what percentage of black votes did you receive? 

A I think it was approximately 85 percent. 

Q What endorsements did you receive, community 

endorsements? 

A Well, the major what we style as major black political 

organizations endorsed my candidacy: BOLD, SOUL; COUP, LIFE, 

OPPVL. I had Tipps, the Tremaine Organization, I had 

substantial support from labor organizations, the teachers' 

organizations UTNO, United Teachers of New Orleans. I had 

endorsements from the ministers in the community. 

Q Given the level of support which you had in the 

endorsements that you had, what was your reaction to the 

results of that election in terms of what you have identified 



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as the black and white support? 

A Well, I guess I failed to mention had endorsements of 

the TIMES-PICAYUNE, I had the endorsement of the GAMBIT 

Newspaper, Eagle in New Orleans East. The -only -7 I had the 

endorsement of the Alliance for Good Government. The only 

major white organization that I could identify that I did not 

receive an endorsement from would have been the RDO which 

endorsed my opponent, Mr. Harris. And despite all of those 

endorsements I got 30 percent of the white vote. 

Q Did you take race into account in your campaign? 

A Not initially. I began the campaign to appeal to every 

voter in Orleans Parish. It was important to me that every 

voter in Orleans Parish knew who I was. My radio spots were 

the same whether they played on WSMB or WYLD. I did not 

slant my message or change it in any way regardless of where 

it was sent in the community. 

Q The radio stations you have identified, one is 

predominantly directed to the black community and one to the 

white? 

A Well, I think if you look at the -- I don't know how they 

do that in terms of how identifying listeners of radio 

stations, but certainly in my mind WSHB would have at least a 

majority white listenership and WYLD would have a black 

format. 

Q What personal appearances did you make? 



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A I spoke, I appeared everywhere I was invited. I appeared 

before the RDC, I attended every speakers' forum where I was 

invited. 

THE COURT: What's the purpose of this line of 

questioning? If the purpose of this line of questioning is 

despite the tremendous amount of white support she only got 

34 percent of the white vote, I think you have established 

that. 

MS. TREADWAY: I believe we stipulated to 30 percent, 

Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Thirty (30) percent? She said 34. 

BY THE WITNESS: 

A I think I said 30 percent. 
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BY THE COURT: 

Q T misunderstood. 

A Thirty (30) percent. 

Q Well, I misunderstood you. 

A - No problem. 

THE COURT: But is that the purpose? Because I think 

that's established. 

MS. TREADWAY: All right, Your Honor, thank you. 

THE COURT: I mean', Mr. Pugh, do you have any, are .yo' 

going to cross-examine her on that particular point? 

MR. PUGH: No, Your Honor. I am going to go into those 

organizations but not what she is talking about. 



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THE COURT: I think that's established that she had 

tremendous support from all sections of the community and 

received no more than 30 percent of the white vote. 

BY MS. TREADWAY: 

Q With regard to your 1984 campaign expenses, what did you 

project that the campaign would probably cost you? 

A When I began the race, the consensus opinion was that, I 

believe, a race for citywide race for Judge would cost 

approximately $100,000. 

And what were your total 'expenses? 

A I can't be precise because I couldn't locate my records, 

but I think approximately 35,000 is what we spent on that 

campaign. 
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Q And what were your primary sources of funds? 

A Perhaps 10 or 15, 000 of my own money and the rest in 

contributions from various people in the community and 

fundraisers. 

Q Were the sources of those funds primarily from black or 

white residents? 

A I got contributions from both. I don't -- I can 

identify, I guess, a few persons from both races who gave me 

funds. 

Q What did the, election results tell you about your 

campaign strategy? 

A Oh, obviously it was successful. 



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Q And what about the voting behavior of Orleans Parish 

voters? 

A Well, I concluded that despite overwhelming endorsements 

from every facet of the community, on election night I was 

still not confident that I would wake up a Judge the next 

day. 

Q Would you seek judicial office in any of the other 3 

parishes of the First Supreme Court District? 

A I wouldn't. It just would not, it wouldn't be feasible 

to me. 

Q And why is that? 

MR. PUGH: May it please the Court, I think she is 

supposed to have been a resident of Orleans or she couldn't 

be a Judge in Orleans. I don't know how she could run in 

these other parishes. 

THE COURT: I think that's purely speculative. 

BY THE WITNESS: 

A Are you suggesting whether I would run for a Supreme 

Court seat with the present configuration? 

BY MS. TREADWAY: 

Q Would you? 

A No, I would not. 

Q And why is that? 

A Well, because I think it would not make sense for a black 

candidate to launch a campaign, an expensive campaign to win 



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votes in Jefferson, Plaquemines and St. Bernard Parish. ' 

And what reason, what reasons are there? 

A Well, I like to do things that make sense. And despite 

my ego, I think I am qualified. T think in those instances 

If I offer my credentials and have an opportunity , to present 

myself, if people are fair, they perhaps would consider me as 

a candidate. But from living in this area, I don't think it 

would make sense to offer myself as a candidate in some areas 

of Jefferson Parish, perhaps, Plaquemines and maybe St. 

Bernard. 

Q In which areas are those? 

A Well, the district that comes to mind might be the 

District 81 that recently elected David Duke. I can't 

believe people with this mindset would also support me. 

Q And whqt is the racial makeup of that? 

A I'm not sure. I just know from the press and the recent 

race for House seat in District 81, but I'm of the firm 

opinion that it would not make sense for me to go to District 

81 and offer myself as a candidate would be nonsensical. 

Is that because of the lack of support that you would 

expect from white voters or from black voters? 

A Well, I don't know if there are any black voters in 

District 81, and I don't know how open-minded the white 

voters are in that particular precinct. 

Q And why would you question the open-mindedness of white 



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voters in certain areas of Jefferson and other parishes? 

A From living in the area, from reading the newspaper, from 

listening to statements that voters in the district make when 

they talk with the press, the television stations. 

Q How does the electorate of Jefferson Parish differ from 

that of Orleans? 

A Well, as I said my --

MR. PUGH: May it please the Court, I think she is just 

before expressing an opinion, and I don't know why she would 

be in a position to be able to express such an opinion. As 

understand it, she has never run in these other parishes. 

THE COURT: I don't think that that's really -- you .can't 

pick out one district. You will go down and let's say if I 

were a-white candidate I wouldn't run in the district where 

the Desire Project is prominent. So I don't think this 

really adds anything. You want to add some humor to it: I 

live in District 81. 

BY THE WITNESS: 

A Well, Iodon't know if -- well, I wasn't saying it for 

humor, Judge-, I was saying - 

BY THE COURT: 

Q No. 

A I wouldn't offer myself as 

That's my personal feeling. 

Q I realize that. 

candidate in that district. 



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rt I- didn't say it for humor. 

I said I wanted to add some humor to it. 

A I wouldn't offer, I wouldn't spend'a dime to run in 

District 81. 

Q My point is I don't think -- I don't blame you -- but 

don't think that's --

THE COURT: I don't understand the relevancy of the 

questions. You can't isolate one district no more would a 

white person run in certain districts in Orleans. This 

doesn't make --

MS. TREADWAY: I think the question was --

. THE COURT: towards areas of the First Supreme Court 

District. It goes both ways. I don't think that's relevant, 

but go ahead. I'm not going to stop you from building up 

your record. You are wasting time with a question like that 

because there is obviously reversal of that question. You 

can't do that, that's not what's at issue. If that's your 

point, I think you are .misreading your case. 

MS. TREADWAY: Our point merely was --

THE COURT: .Go ahead, I understand your point. Let's go 

ahead, let's go ahead. 

MS. TREADWAY: That was the end of my questioning at this 

time. 

THE COURT: All right, fine. 

MR. PUGH: Excuse me, does plaintiff have 



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MR. 1.0DNEY: We don't have any questions of this witness. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION 

BY MR. PUGH: 

Good morning, Judge. 

Good morning. 

Judge, this election of yours in 199..4, and I think you 

speculated on whether or not you would run for the next 

election, for the purpose of the record I want to apologize 

it is 1990 and not '92. I will make the question 

concerning '90. Then actually if you were to run for Supreme 

Court you couldn't run for the present seat you have and for 

the 'Supreme Court seat? 

A No, you can't run for 2 judgeships concurrently, you have 

got to make a choice. 

You would have to give up your seat to run? 

A Well, not necessarily. If the 2 seats are up for 

election at the same time, I would have to give up one. But 

in fact, could remain on the Civil District Court bench 

and run for the 'Court of Appeal, Traffic Court Judge, Supreme 

Court or any other judgeship without resigning from this 

office if the election is held at a different time. 

Q As a matter of fact, all the District Judges run in 1990, 

do they not? 

A Yes. 

As a matter of fact, the next scheduled election under 



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the existing law for the Louisiana Supreme Court is in 1990, 

isn't it? 

A If you say so. 

Q Did you have any prior judicial experience when you ran 

for office? 

A T had quasi-judicial experience, I guess, as a referee 

for the Civil Service Commission deciding those cases. I 

also sat ad hoc in Civil, First City Court here in New 

Orleans. 

Of course, you made those matters known to the public at 

the time you ran? 

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A I certainly did. 

Q How about your opponent or opponents, was it just one 

opponent in the race? 

A I think ultimately on election day it was just Ronald 

Harris and myself. 

Q And did he have any previous judicial experience? 

A I don't recall. I didn't see him at any forums, I don't 

remember. 

In connection with the financing, as a matter of fact, 

you out-spent your opponent, did you not? 

A I don't know what Ronald Harris spent. I don't have 

those records. 

Q You alluded to the political organizations as you listed 

them, and it appeared to me you had a substantial number, if 



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not all, of the political. organizations. As I understand it, 

there could be 70 or 100 but there are a viable visible 

number of black political organizations in Orleans Parish, 

are there not? 

A There are lots of political organizations white and 

black. 

Q And in connection with political organizations, and I 

will allude to the black political organizations that you got 

the support of., I think you said BOLD, COUP and LIFE? 

A Uh-huh. 

As I understand it, what happens is that you actually 

appear before those organizations and seek their support? 

A Yes. 

And as I also understand it, what happens is one of the 

criteria for their supporting you is for you to pay money to 

them to assi .st whatever they do, is that not a fact? 

A Well, I guess maybe in some instances, but I didn't pay 

them anything because I didn't have a lot of money. They 

traditionally, I think, do a budget with a pro rata share for 

the costs of mailout, postage and printing, et cetera. But 

if you check the records, most of them carried me without 

cost. 

Q Actually you spent $20,122.36, I believe, on your --

A Pardon? 

Q ‘(:;20,122.36, is that what you spent? 



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- On postage and all with organizations? 

Or whatever you reported to the State? 

Probably. That's a small sum for ballot printing and 

postage. 

You did, however, get a 30 percent crossover white vote, 

- believe? - 

T did. 

And you got 85 percent of the black vote? 

• Yes. 

Is that your experience here that 30 percent is a large 

crossover white vote, or is that medium? 

A Well, the record seems to show it's high. 

Thank you very much, Judge. 

A Okay. 

THE COURT: Any redirect? 

MS. TREADWAY: No, Your Honor. 

HR. RODNEY: No, Your Honor. 

(Witness is excused.) 

THE COURT: We will take a 15 minute recess. 

(Court recessed at 10:58 a.m. 

and then the Court reconvened 

at 11:14 a.m.) 

THE COURT: Be seated, please. Call your next witness. 

MR. RODNEY: At this time plaintiffs would like to call 

the stand Mr. Melvin Zeno. 



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MELVIN ZENO, 

called as a witness at the instance of the plaintiff, after 

having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as 

follows: 

BY DEPUTY NELSON: 

Q Please be seated and state your name for the record. 

A I'm Melvin Zeno. 

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. RODNEY: 

Q Mr. Zeno, would you state your race for the record. 

A Black, black male. 

Q I would like to get some background information from you 

at this time. With the Court's permission I will lead Mr. 

Zeno to some extent through the background information. Yoll 

are a graduate of Southern University in Baton Rouge, is tha': 

correct? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q And you are a graduate of the Loyola University of the 

South here in New Orleans, is that correct? 

A Also, yes. 

Q When you graduated from Southern in Baton Rouge, you 

became a teacher in the Jefferson Parish School System, isn't 

that correct? 

A That's correct. I did for a short period of time work in 

the Iberville Parish School System for about 6 weeks or so. 



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And you worked in the Jefferson Parish School System for 

about 7 years? 

A That's correct. 

Q And during that time you were involved in the education 

of special children and mentally retarded children? 

A That's correct. 

Q So that you would have access to children systemwide, is 

that not the case? 

A Yes, sir. 

And you have also since completing your law degree you 

have served as an Assistant District Attorney in Jefferson 

Parish? 

A Yes. 

And you have done that for. approximately 15•years? 

A Yes. 

And you also have your own firm in Jefferson Parish, is 

that not right? 

A That's correct. 

Q And that is the firm of Zeno, Frazier and Banks? 

A That's correct. 

In addition to. working as an attorney, you have also been 

an instructor on the collegiate level? 

A Yes, I have. 

Q And during your time that you have spent in Jefferson 

Parish you have also been involved in the community as a 



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scoutmaster? 

A Yes. 

And as a civic organization leader? 

A Yes. 

Q And a coach with the Special Olympics in Jefferson 

Parish? 

A That's correct. - 

Q In fact, you have been the area coordinator for the 

Jefferson Special Olympics, is that not right? 

A That's correct. 

And a member of the board of the Louisiana Special 

Olympics? 

MR. PUGH: Excuse me, may 'it please the Court, Your 

Honor, they have introduced as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 6 some 

information concerning his race that details all of what we 

are now having the examination about. Unless he has got 

something to add, it would seem to be duplicative. 

THE COURT: Why don't you stipulate that his testimony on 

direct examination would be as set forth in Exhibit --

MR. PUGH: It's Plaintiff Exhibit --

RODNEY: Plaintiff Exhibit 6. 

THE COURT: -- as in Plaintiff Exhibit 6? 

MR. PUGH: I would so stipulate, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: All right, then you can ask him any 

additional questions. 



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MR. RODNEY: That's fine. 

BY MR. RODNEY: 

Mr. Zeno, did you ever have occasion to run for public . 

office in Jefferson Parish? 

A Yes, sir, I did. May I comment on the exhibit relative 

to my background? 

Yes. 

A There are some items which are not included in that 

because we purged those due to some concerns that we had 

relative to those documents going into predominantly white 

areas. 

Q Why don't we outline for the Court those things which I 

think I can bring out in your examination that are not 

included in your campaign literature in Exhibit 6. You have 

served as a member of the National Bar Association? 

A Yes. 

Q And that's a minority Bar Association? 

A Yes, it is. 

Q And you have also served as a member of the Louis 

Martinet Society, which is also a minority Bar Association, 

is that not right? 

A That's correct. 

Q And you have also served as a member of a predominantly 

black fraternity, Omega Psi Phi? 

A Yes. 



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And those things were not included in your literature in 

Exhibit 6, is that not right? 

A That's correct, and we also did not include vice 

president of Martin Luther King, Jr. Task Force. We purged 

that from my qualifications as well. 

Can you tell the Court why you purged that information 

from your campaign literature? 

A We had some concerns in Jefferson Parish that if those 

items were distfbibuted th predominantly white areas that it 

would affect' the possibility of my receiving -- we thought we 

would not get a white vote if they thought I was involved 

with the Martin Luther King, Jr. Task Force or NAACP, those 

kinds of thin-s. 

Q And were you advised as to that possibility of not 

receiving white support by listing your involvement in black 

activities by any of your campaign s'upporters? 

A Yes, I was. 

Q What supporters advised you that that literature may not 

be to your benefit, that sort of information may not be to 

your benefit r a white community? 

A Well, there were a number of people. We had some local 

attorneys, Wayne Walker and his wife, I had conversations 

with who is a white attorney, has a practice in Gretna. Mike 

Gross, who is one of the Assistant District Attorneys and a 

supervisor who serves in the same capacity as I do with the 



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District Attorney's Office. We had a conversation; he 

advised me against putting certain information or appearing 

personally at certain functions, of putting my picture face 

on TV. In addition to that those persons who were working 

very closely with my campaign: Virgil Robinson and Roy Clark 

and a number of others who worked very closely with the 

campaign advised me against it. We had the public relations 

firm that had volunteered to do work with us that we had 

conversations with, NBC Firm, one of their representatives 

advised me against putting information on my document or my 

photograph. 

Q What is the name of that firm? 

A I believe it was NBC, I believe are the initials. I'm 

not sure what that stands for- Andre Laborde was one of the 

partners in that firm, but he didn't do most of the work, one 

of his partners did. 

Q What about political organizations or political supporter 

groups or civic groups, did they advise you the same way? 

A I received the endorsement of the Alliance for Good 

Government, the Jefferson Branch. Their president, whose 

name is Dan Gilbert, 

requested that I give 

in the Metairie area. 

approached me at a time that they had 

them campaign literature to distribute 

The literature that I had prepared at 

that time had my photograph on it, and he came back to me and 

told me that he could not distribute that literature in his 



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area at point blank the whites in that area would not accept 

that I would have to go back and have some other literature 

prepared which did not have my photograph on it, and I did 

that. 

When you say "this area," you mean the predominantly 

white residential areas of Jefferson Parish? 

A Yes. Dan lives in House District 81, which is the same 

as the one that. David Duke was elected from and my opponent 

was running from, who was Judge Cusimano now, and they were 

going to distribute in that area as well as some areas on the 

•East Bank including shopping centers and neighborhoods and 

that we put out yard signs and so forth. And he was the one 

that asked me to -pull it off. 

Q So that advice was not simply limited to House District 

31 but included other predominantly white residential areas 

of Jefferson Parish? 

A Yes, it did. And at the same time the Alliance published 

in the TIMES-PICAYUNE their endorsement. They indicated to 

me that they thought it would be better not to include my 

photograph. So the other candidates who received 

endorsements of the Alliance had their photographs published 

next to the endorsement and the name. Mine was the only one 

that did not have a photograph. 

Q let me go back a bit. Wasn't that your decision to run 

for office in 1988, what led to your decision? 



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Well, I had always, I guess, since I began practicing 

law, well, sometime after I became interested in becoming a 

Judge being an Assistant DA I was in the Courtroom a lot and 

had an opportunity to observe a number of things and felt I 

had something to offer to the judicial system. Judge 

Collins, Lionel Collins, passed while on the bench. I in 
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consultation with other persons who supported me believed 

there was a good opportunity to run. We felt that it would 

be possible since he was the only black Judge that it might 

be easier to be replaced to get that position on the basis 

that some might feel it would be good to replace a black 

Judge with another black Judge inasmuch as he was the only 

one. 

Q What position were you running for exactly? 

A The same seat that Judge Collins that was vacated by 

Judge Collins' death, District "L", 24th Judicial District 

Court. 

And did you campaign subsequently campaign and run for 

that seat in Jefferson Parish? 

A Yes, I did. 

And did you receive some support of some of the elected 

officials in Jefferson Parish? 

A I received what I thought was the cream of the support in 

Jefferson Parish: The District Attorney, John Mamoulides 

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Well, I had always, I guess, since I began Tracticing 

law, well, sometime after I became interested in becoming a 

Judge being an Assistant DA I was in the Courtroom a lot and 

had an opportunity to observe a number of things and felt I 

had something to offer to the judicial system. Judge 

Collins, Lionel Collins, passed while on the bench. I in 

consultation with other , persons who supported me believed 

there was a good opportunity to run. We felt that it would 

be possible since he was the only black Judge that it might 

be easier to be replaced to get that position on the basis 

that some might feel it would be good to replace a black 

Judge with another black Judge inasmuch as he was the only 

one. 

Q What position were you running for exactly? 

A The same seat that Judge Collins that was vacated by 

Judge Collins' death, District 

Court. 

Q And did you campaign subsequently campaign and run for 

that seat in Jefferson Parish? 

A Yes, T did. 

And did you receive some support of some of the elected 

officials in Jefferson Parish? 

A I received what I thought was the cream of the support in 

Jefferson Parish: The District Attorney, John Mamoulides 

endorsed me, made the radio spot for me; Sheriff Harry Lee 

ft T1 , 24th Judicial District 



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endorsed me and sent out literature to his employees in their 

payroll checks. He had a letter of support for me and in 

their payroll checks. Mayor Aaron Broussard of Kenner 

endorsed me and distributed a letter to the residences of 

Kenner evidencing that endorsement. Mayor Leo Kernan of 

Lafitte endorsed me. The chairman of the Jefferson Parish 

Council, Robert Edmunds endorsed me and made a television 

spot for me which ran on Channels 4, 6 and P. Councilwoman 

Wilma Ervin of Kenner also endorsed me for that position, and 

I can't recall any others. 

Q District Attorney Mamoulides, Sheriff Harry Lee, Mayor 

Aaron Broussard, Mayor Leo Kernan and Council President 

Robert Edmunds, they are all white, aren't they? 

A Yes.. 

Did you receive any support from any political 

organizations? 

A We received the endorsement of the Alliance for Good 

Government and along with that endorsement they canvassed for 

me in the neighborhoods and distributed literature as I 

indicated earlier. The Jefferson Democratic Committee 

endorsed me and also published that endorsement in the 

newspaper in support of my candidacy. I can't remember 

others, I'm sure there must be. 

Q The Alliance for Good Government in Jefferson Parish, 

that's a predominantly white organization? 



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Yes it is. 

What about the Jefferson Democratic Committee? 

It is likewise. 

When you were running for Judge, did you campaign in all 

areas of Jefferson Parish? 

A Well, T wil l have to qualify it by saying that I had 

people who went into all areas. I did not personally appear 

in all areas; because my advisors suggested that that would 

no be in my best interests to do that. 

So you feel as though that you were forced to use 

surrogates t,o campaign for you in some areas of Jefferson . 

Parish? 

A 
rt. Absolutely. We had to do that. Councilman Evans made 

the television spots for me because we were advised that it 

was not appropriate as I indicated earlier for me to appear 

on television. So I didn't make the television spots, he 

made it for me. And in the spot he did indicate other 

support that I had received. We had a number of persons from 

the District Attorney's Office, a sizable number I should 

say, which I guess exceeded 100 who were predominantly whites 

that supported my effort, and we dispatched them to go into 

the shopping centers at the foot of the Greater New . Orleans 

Mississippi River Bridge before the opening of the second 

span. It was quite common for politicians to appear there in 

the morning between the hours of 6 and 8 to 8:30 and campaign 



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by walking to automobiles and greeting people and talking 

with them. I was not able to appear there for reasons that I 

have stated, and we dispatched those groups of persons to go 

down there. They went down and distributed my literature, 

but I wasn't able to go down and do that. 

We were invited to appear at an affair at the St. Joseph 

the Worker Catholic Church to meet with persons, but we sent 

some of our representatives down, and they came back and sad 

that the crowd was predominantly white and there were only 

one or 2 blacks who were there and that would not be in my 

best interests. They carried some literature down. We were 

advised to come down by one of the State Representatives who 

was down there at that time, and so we couldn't appear there. 

We turned down, we did not appear at a radio talk show on one . 

occasion because my opponent was not going to be there, and 

we felt that the conversation based upon the information we 

had was going to focus on my being the black candidate, and 

we did not want that kind of information to go out because 

the radio station in question had a good listening audience 

in conservative listenerships in Jefferson Parish. We did go 

out to Avondale Shipyard, I did personally appear at Avondale 

Shipyard on one morning because as we assessed the situation 

we determined that there were sufficient number of blacks 

from Jefferson Parish who worked at Avondale and would be 

arriving through a particular gate. So that it would be to 



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my advantage to go out and campaign in person at that site. 

Q Your opponent, who was your opponent in this race? 

A We started the qualifying there were 4 candidates. One 

withdrew immediately, I would say within a week or week's 

time or so. That left Charles Cusimano, Patrick McGinity and 

myself as the candidates remaining up until, I guess, about 4 

days before election at which time Pat McGinity withdrew and . 

endorsed me for the position. And so during election process 

there were only 2 of us -- Pat's name did appear on the 

ballot because he withdrew too late to have it removed. 

Q Mr. McGinity, was he white also? 

A Yes, he was white, and the House District he lived in 

House District 81 I might say. 

Q. Mr. Cusimano, was he white also? 

A Yes. 

Q We have stipulated to your background. Do you have any 

knowledge-of what Mr. Cusimano's background was at the time 

of this election in 1938? 

A He was an attorney. He was a, in the Legislature at that 

time, represented House District 81 as I understand it for 

about 7, to 7 years had been th-rP. As far as the practice of 

law is concerned, I am in the Courthouse frequently in 

Jefferson Parish, and I don't recall ever seeing him 

practice, handling cases at the Courthouse. And from my 

investigation, it was, he was very seldom there, if any. 



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Did you receive any support from the media? 

Well, we, T was personally informed that I was going to 

receive an endorsement of the TIMES-PICAYUNE, that did not 

come to pass, however. There were a number of events that 

took place that in my mind were suspect. I received a 

telephone call from a reporter from the TIMES-PICAYUNE whO 

told me that I would receive endorsement of the TIMES-

PICAYUNE that due 'to the time remaining that they would not 

conduct an interview process with me, that they would hold 

the announcement of the endorsement because at that time the 

question of the election was with the U. S. Supreme Court. 

Ant it was our feeling that the election would not take 

place. And so they were going to hold the endorsement. 
- -• • 

Subsequently they called me back and asked me to come in 

and bring information on myself for purposes of a profile to 

be published in the newspaper. They were publishing a 

profile on all of the candidates. This was not the . 

endorsement. After I arrived at the PICAYUNE's office and 

presented my profile, the reporter there questioned, asked me 

whether or not I had reported to the main office on Howard 

Avenue for purposes of the interview for the endorsement, and 

I reminded him that he told me there would be no interview, 

that I had received the endorsement. At which time he .told 

me that it would be necessary for me to go through an 

interview process and gave me the name and telephone number 



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of the gentleman whom I should contact. I called the main 

office in an effort to set up the interview with myself and 

the person in question and was told that at tha.t time that 

the interviews were closed and that I would not be 

interviewed. 

I related what I had been told, and the apology from the 

secretary who said they weren't interviewing. I started to 

see if my opponent, Charles Cusimano, had been interviewed, 

and she indicated that he had been. Subsequently thereafter 

the endorsement came out I think about that Thursday or so 

before the election, and my opponent was, received 

endorsement of the PICAYUNE. 

Q Before you ran in the race, did you commission any polls 

to see how likely. 'it mould be that you could win that 

electiorl? 

A Yes, but - 

Q What did those polls indicate? 

A The poll indicated that when my qualifications were 

placed against those of my opponent, Mr. Cusimano I won 2 to 

1. 

MR. RODNEY: If I might approach to allow the witness to 

see Exhibit 6? 

THE COURT: Go ahead. 

BY MR. RODNEY: 

(Counsel shows document to he witness.) Exhibit 6 



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contains on this first page a letter from you, I believe, 

addressed to the voters with your picture on it, is that not 

correct? 

A Yes, it is. 

Q As a result of your campaigning for this Judge seat in 

1988, did you have any discussions with any of your advisors 

or any of the political organizations or elected officials 

that supported you surrounding that picture? 

'Yes. We had the same kind of discussion as I indicated 

with Dan Gilbert of the Alliance, that this letter would not 

be acceptable in the white neighborhoods, and therefore we 

had to do another letter wherein my picture did not appear, 

and we produced that letter. 

Q On the second page of that Exhibit 6 there are 2 campaign 

placards, both have your name, Melvin Zeno, on it : And I 

think on the back your clualifications, but one has your 

photograph and one does not have your photograph. Can you 

explain to the Court how it was that you produced 2 or why it 

was that you produced 2 campaign push cause (sic), one 

bearing your photograph and one not bearing your photograph? 

A This was in direct response from Mr. Gilbert, and we 

complied with it, that the push cause in question were going 

to be distributed in white areas and that we could not make 

that distribution with my photograph on it. 

We, therefore, went back to the printers and had him to 



-75 

print additional push cause and remove my picture from it. 

The one which is shown on this document without my picture 

actually is a second printing. The first one was almost 

identical to it in quality and tone to the one on the left 

side, but we.ran out and we had a second printing without my 

photograph. 

Q When was that election actually held? 

A On October 1, 1988. 

Q And what percentage of the vote did you receive? 

A I think I received 20 percent, somewhere around in there 

of the votes cast. 

Q And what percentage of the votes that you received were 

black? 

A One hundred (100 percent according to the information 

that we had. 

Q And.what percentage of the white vote did you receive in 

your election? 

A Anywhere from 15 to 18 percent. 

Q Having run in your race with the sort of support that you 

have and knowing the election results, do you have any 

opinion concerning your campaign strategy and your election 

campaign experience? 

A Well, given the circumstances that I experienced earlier, 

I would not run for office again as a Judge in Jefferson 

Parish under ".t current system. I don't believe that it. is 



76 

possible for a black person to win a judgeship in Jefferson 

Parish under the current situation. 

Isn't it the case that someone or some persons who are 

involved in politics have brought to your attention that 

there may be another available seat on that bench in the ?4th 

JDC? 

A I was approached roughly a week-and-a-half ago relative 

to Division "I" seat, Judge Wallace LeBrun having to depart 

due to physical disability, and asked whether or not you 

would seek that position. I have declined .for the reasons 

that I have just stated. 

Q So under the current system you don't intend to run for 

any vacant Judge seat in Jefferson Parish? 

—•. 
A . No, I would like to but I. don't believe based upon the 

financial requirements and the time that's required to 

campaign that it would be futile, useless and a waste of my 

time and electorate to do that. 

Q What about the results of the voting as far as the 

percentage you received in blacks and whites, what effect 

does that have on your decision to run in the future? 

A Well, if, in fact, there was a district wherein a 

majority of the black population was voting, I would 

certainly run without any hesitation. 

MR. RODNEY: That's all the questions that the plaintiffs 

have, Your Honor. 



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CROSS-EXAMINATION 

BY MS. TREADWAY: 

Q Just a few question b from plaintiff intervenor. You have 

described what you did with your printed signs and how you 

had to purge them and how you had to restrict your public 

appearances because of expected antipathy from white voters. 

And also that you were unable to make your own television 

advertisements. But what radio media advertising did you do? 

A Mr. Mamoulides prepared a radio spot for us and it ran on 

WWL and one other radio station, I believe FM 102 I believe 

is the station. I made one personally, and I didn't recall 

when I was questioned earlier, I •did make one personally that 

ran on WYLD. I did that one on advice that it would be good 

to let the blacks know -predominantly a station according to - 

our information that was heard by predominantly black 

persons, so I made that one myself. 

Q And did you make any appearances in debates either in 

person or on the radio? 

A I appeared at, I believe it was 3 different forums The 

Alliance for Good Government, the League of Women Voters, the 

New Orleans League of Women Voters also had a deba - on WWL 

Radio. I appeared for that one, and I believe that's it. 

And with you in that radio debate was your opponent, Mr. 

Cusimano? 

A Yes, he-was present.. 



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And what occurred during that discussion on the radio? 

A Well, things were going fairly well until the question of 

merit selection came up. The moderator asked us a question 

as to our opinion relative to merit selections for Judges. I 

began, I made my comment on it; Mr. Cusimano commented, and 

then he made what appeared to me to be a direct attempt to 

bring out my race by saying that black lawyers did not favor 

the merit selection system, and he said, isn't it true, Mel? 

And he kept saying it over and over, and I thought based upon 

the context that he was attempting to let the audience know 

that I was black. 

MS. TREADWAY: NQ further questions at this time. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION 

BY MR. PUGH: 

Good morning, Mr. Zeno. 

A Good morning. 

I would like to first let's talk about Judge Collins. As 

I understand it, there was a black Judge sitting in Jefferson 

Parish, and it was his seat that you sought, is that correct? 

Yes, sir. 

How long had he been sitting in Jefferson Parish? 

A Oh, I know but I can't tell you exactly. I know he had 

one full term, and he had been appointed for a period of 

time. So I would think probably 7 or 8 years. 

Q For the full term, I presume, he was elected to office? 



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A Well, not in what we would call an elect-ion. The other 

candidates all Withdrew; he never faced the electorate, he 

never had to be voted upon by the general public. 

Q So what occurred is he ran and some others were going to 

run and they dropped out of the race. So you are saying he 

didn't have any viable candidate then to run against? 

THE COURT: Wait, there is an objection. 

MR. RODNEY: We have already stipulated as to the facts 

of running Judge Collins' initial appointment and then 

subsequently elected without opposition in this particular 

case. 

THE COURT: But he is going, his question went beyond the 

stipulation. 

MR. RODNEY: Well, he asked the exact same thing in the 

stipulations. 

THE COURT: But then I think he is leading up to another 

question. 

MR. PUGH: Thank you, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Are you leading up to another question? 

PUGH: I was. 

THE COURT: Co ahead, you may. 

BY MR. PUGH: 

Let me ask you this: This poll of 2 to 1 that said you 

were going to win, did that poll indicate that there was 

Judge Collins who was black and that wo-uld you vote for 



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another black to replace Judge Collins? 

A No, the poll was a neutral one. It only asked the 

question that given qualifications and it listed the 

qualifications of Mr. Cusimano being the Representative with 

his background in law and given the qualifications of -- did 

not list my name, but it listed my involvement as -an attorney 

and Assistant DA and the experience that I had -- which one 

of these candidates would you vote for? 

Q You paid for that poll T assume? 

.A I didn't have to pay for it personally, it was Mr. 

Mamoulides had it commissioned. He was working along with my 

campaign. 

Q Speaking of Mr. !,:amoulides, he is the District Attorney 

there in Jefferson, isn't he? 

A Yes, sir, he is my employer; I work for him. 

What other efforts were made by these whites to assist 

you in your campaign? 

A Well, counseling -- I don't believe any of them gave me 

any financial contributions. Mr. Mamoulides gave me a 

substantial amount of assistance in terms of advice and 

assisting me in fundraisers that I had after the campaign was 

over. The others sent out letters as I indicated, Sheriff 

Lee and Mayor Broussard. 

Did anybody on your campaign staff suggest since it 

wasn't in the poll that perhaps the way to run a race when 



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there had been an incumbent who was black, obviously 

acceptable, that what you ought to do is pitch your campaign 

instead of taking your picture off to use that as your 

advantage because you were replacing a black man? 

A Well, no one made that suggestion. I don't think that we 

felt that a black candidate was acceptable even given Judge 

Collins' situation. He was first appointed, and then the 

candidate S were all convinced to withdraw from the election, 

and it was commonly felt that if he had to run he would have 

never won that election. 

Q How much did you spend in this election? 

A We spent roughly S30,000 in 2 weeks. We had a 2-week 

campaign because the election that we qualified and then it 

was called it was say about a week-and-a-half after we 

qualified. And then it didn't go back on until about 21 days 

exactly before the election, and we were able to crank up and 

actually get involved about- 2 weeks before the election. 

In that connection how much did Cusimano spend? 

It 
A My information is he spent at least twice as much. 

believe it was somewhere in the 60-something area. 

Q You were having reason to believe it might have been in 

excess of twice that much? 

A I have no reasons to doubt that. T understood that his 

father was prepared to write a check for him to run. 

Q Is it fair to say that he had substantial financial 

• 



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support, his father or otherwise? 

It would be fair to say that, and we had difficulty 

getting people to contribute to the campaign, I will agree 

with that. 

Yours then I assume was, was not a campaign run on the 

basis of a substantial amount of money but, in fact, you 

actually spent little money compared to the other opponent, 

is that right, I say "little," and I guess that's relative? 

For me it was a lot. 

I'm not saying but actually there was a lot more money 

spent against yau in that campaign? 

A That's right. I don't think from the standpoint of my 

desire, I certainly had a desire to spend more. It was just 

a problem in trying to raise funds in that period of time. 

Thank you very much, sir. 

REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. RODNEY: 

Q Mr. Zeno, when you responded to Counsel's question about 

the poll and said that it was a neutral poll, what do you 

mean by that? 

A It did not reflect the race of the parties involved. 

On a subject of money based upon your experience in 

campaigning in that district, do you believe that you would 

have been successful if you had spent twice as much as your 

opponent? 



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No, no, I don't. 

Q Why not? 

A I'm convinced that no amount of money would permit a 

black to be elected to a -judgeship in Jefferson Parish on the 

current situation based upon racial voting patterns. 

Q Thank you very much. 

THE COURT: Any other questions of this witness? 

MS. TREADWAY: No, Your Honor. 

(Witness is excused.) 

THE COURT: Call your next witness. 

MR. BERMAN: United States calls Anderson Council. 



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ANDERSON 

called as a witness at the instance of the plaintiff 

intervenor, after having been first duly sworn, was examined 

and testified as follows: 

BY DEPUTY :1ELSON: 

Please be sated and state your name for the record. 

A I'm Anderson Council. 

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. BE 

Which parish do you reside in? 

A Jefferson Parish. 

Q . And what is your race? 

My- race? 
- 

Your race. 

A Blank. 

Mr.. Council, you ran for the office of Juvenile Court 

Judge in 1987, is that norrPt?-

A Yes, that is. 

Prior to that time had you had any judicial experience? 

Yes, I had sat as Magistrate Judge in the City of Kenner. 

And any law enforcement experience? 

Yes, I had served as Assistant City Attorney, the city of 

Kenner. since 198 14. 

In addition to these duties, do you also maintain a 

private practice? 



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A Yes, I maintain a private practice since 1969. 

Q And just very briefly what does that private practice 

consist of, is it strictly civil or criminal? 

A Both civil and criminal and, of course, municipal for the 

City of Kenner. 

Q What were the factors that prompted you to decide to run 

for Juvenile Court Judge? 

A Well, as a practicing attorney, I guess most practicing 

attorneys eventually see themselves as going into a 

judgeship, and I had always wanted to perhaps end my practice 

as a Judge. And when the Juvenile Court Judgeship came up, I 

saw this as an opportunity run because of the fact there was 

no incumbent seat at the time, there was no candidate with 

any name recognition, and neither the candidates that were 

runnipg had as much experience as I had, trial experience as 

I had, as much criminal experience as I had. And, of course, 

I felt that my qualifications at this time and with my 

involvement with elected officials in the Parish in 

supporting other candidates in the Parish I felt that with 

their help this would be a good time and good opportunity for 

me to seek a judgeship. 

Were there any other factors that were particular to the 

August 1987 election that prompted your decision? 

A Well, this was an election that we expected to be 

extremely low key. There was not a great deal of excitement 



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as I say generated about this election because it was, in 

fact, a Juvenile Court election. And traditionally in 

Jefferson Parish an election of that kind of low magnitude 

had not generated a great deal of interest in the past. We 

expected low turnout, or we had hoped for a low white 

turnout, and I felt that if we could get the black vote out 

or g.,.=t the black community to see this as a golden 

opportunity that we had never had a black to white parishwide 

to get out and campaign parishwide, if we could get the black 

community really fired up and in this election with a low 

white turnout that we would have a very good chance of 

running. 

And, of course, as I said, I contacted many elected 
. . 

officials in the parish whom I had worked with and helped in 

civic organizations irr the parish that I had worked with in 

other elections, and we had quite a bit of support that was 

promised to us, white support that had been promised to us. 

And we thought this was an excellent time for us to win a 

seat parishwide, but, of course, the death of the Parish 

President, Mr. Yenni, sort of threw a monkey wrench in that 

in this. 

In what way did it throw a monkey wrench into that? 

A Well, the election or the campaign for Parish President 

involved Mr. Yenni's son and a former Parish Councilman who 

was acting President, Mr. Willie Hof. And it gene-rated into 



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a lot of mud slinging and people breaking off into camps, and 

it pit political parties against political parties. And my 

officials, it generated too much interest in the overall 

elections, namely, the Parish President election. And our 

being on the ballot at the same time it brought out too much 

white vote in order for me to have an opportunity to win. 

Was it part of your campaign strategy to keep the turnout 

among white voters low, is that your testimony? 

A Wel, that was what we were advised, to work the. black 

communities, the black churches, the black organizations to 

really generate stronger black support, as we could and at the 

same time to avoid confrontations with the other white 

candidates so as.not to politically arouse the white 

• 
" • community, T  guess. 

How was this done when it came' to doing media or 

advertising? 

A did radio advertising with 2 black radio stations, and 

we did one white radio station. And the Council Presidency 

of Kenner did the radio spots for us on the white radio 

.stations. 

Why was that? 

A ,Jp 1 1 because we were directing our attention to the 

white constituency, and I was advised that it's best or 

imperative that we have someone of name recognition of the 

white community to do the radio ads for us. 



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We also did the 3 major television stations the week of 

the election, and there again the Mayor of the City of Kenner 

did the television spots for us in order to appeal to the 

white constituency without creating any issue over race. 

Is the Mayor of the City of Kenner white? 

Yes. 

Q With regard to the results of that election, I believe 

Exhibit 18, which is the .charge to the sidP there, indicates 

the amount of support you received from black Voters in 

Jefferson Parish and white voters. What!s your reaction to 

those numbers? 

A Well, : guess the numbers pretty much tell the story. We 

thought with 80 to 85 percent of the black vote that we would 

be in pretty good shape. But we thought with letters and 

contacts with the white civic associations with the support 

of numerous white elected officials that was promised to us 

that we would need about 20 to 95 percent of the white vote 

cast in order for us to have a shot at that time. But then. 

we were expecting the white turnout to be low but if we could 

get somewhere in the neighborhood of 20, 25 percent of that 

low turnout because of my involvement with other white 

candidates and their election, if we could get them to 

deliver for us we would have had a pretty good shot at it. 

But as you can see we fell dismally in the white vote. 

Based on that strategy of trying not to increase the 



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white voter turnout, was it part of your strategy to spend or 

to wage an expensive high visibility campaign? 

A Well, I didn't have the kind of money that would have and 

to have given me the opportunity to have a high visibility 

campaign parishwide. But there again if, you know, if you 

got ::;300,000 available to you, it is always great. VIP knew 

he, we didn't have that kind of money. We knew we weren't 

going to be able to raise that kind of money. With that kind 

of money with our strategy, we would not have gone on TV or 

the radio anyway because of the fact that our strategy was to 

maintain a low visibility as far as the white constituency 

was concerned. We only had something like 14 percent black 

population, and we knew that, of course, the majority of the 

vote would come from.-the white community. So we definitely 

did not want to go out and make it blatantly known that I am 

a black candidate. 

So having that kind of money certainly would not have 

increased our awareness in terms of our visibility, in terms 

of our faces on TV-or our voice on radio. We would have 

made, spent that money in other areas. 

How many opponents did you have in your contest? 

Two (2). 

And what ta,.rg, their races? 

A They were white. 

BY THE COURT: 



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What are their names? 

Ann Keller, who won the election, and Arthur Kingsmill. 

BY PBERMAN: 

And did either of your opponents have any judicial 

experience at all? 

A Mr. Kingsmill had served as Juvenile Judge ad hoc. 

A 

And did Mr. Kingsmill win the election? 

No. 

Ms. Keller ,lid? 

Keller won the election. 

MR. BERMAN: No further questions, Your Honor. 

MR. RODNEY: No questions on behalf of plaintiffs. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION 

BY.. MR. PUGH: 

Good morning, Mr. Council. 

Good morning, sir. 

If you maintained a low -visibth campaign '0 that 

white people wouldn't know that you were black, how did they 

find out? 

A Well, T think in the latter days of the campaign the. 

newspapers disclosed the fact that T was a black candidate, 

and, of course , the forums that we were involved in there was 

no way that I could hide that fact. But in the forums we 

were  addressing people that were politically active, 

politically aware. But the outcome of the election indicates 



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that the whit vote that we lost was just-in the general 

population. 

Q Well, 97 percent of the white vote did not vote for you, 

is that correct? 

Absolutely not. 

And you are telling this Court that 97 percent of the 

white voters found out you were black as a result of the 

forums you were 

information? 

1), 

in and as a result of that newspaper 

would imagine that's the only answer that 1, 

certainly didn't _ 

Isn't it a fact, Mr. Council 

.MR. RODNEY: I just Mr. Pugh to allow the witness to 

complete his answers. 

THE COURT: Let's let him complete his answers, Mr. Pugh. 

3Y ER. PUGH: 

Go ahead, sir. Did you have something else? 

A Venc, sir. 

Q Did you have anything else? 

A No. 

Isn't it a fact, Mr. Council, that you only spent 5 

percent of the total amount of money that was spent in that 

campaign? 

A Well, Mr. Kingsmill allegedly spent $215,000, and I think 

3. Keller spent upwards of what Arthur spent, and I only 



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spent ih the neighborhood of "):0. 

The figures I have has you down to 23,57")-94, is that 

about right? 

That's about right. In terms of the actual campaign 

expenses, I did not include travel expenses that we spent in . 

an attempt to raise funds that were unsuccessful. 

Is. Keller, she spPnt $227,000? 

A She spent upwards of what Arthur spent. Arthur spent 

21S,000 so he disclosed to me. 

fl So then if you take the figures that you have given me, 

we are still looking at you only spending about 5 percent of 

the total amount of money? 

Whatever that proporti'on is, sir. 

That's all the questions. I 

72-Y. NR. pm.DT,IAm. 

Q 

have. Thank you, sir. 

REDIRECT PXAINATION 

One question, Mr. Council: If you had l')227,000 to spend 

on a campaign, is it you .: :alk that would have made any 

difference in the results? 

R. PUGH: May it please the Court, that's going to be 

speculation involved in this. 

THE COURT: Well, also you want to speculate which of the 

candidat - had name recognition, did he or did :Ir. Kihgsmill 

or the lady have name recognition? 

Pr.;"11.1, AM. Is. Keller. 



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THE COURT: :.Ls. Keller. 

R. PUGH: Wr-, will withdraw the objection. Thank you. 

BY THE COURT: 

o you can answer the question. Go ahead. 

No .. 

T mean those aren't the only factors; in fact, I can take 

judicial aognizance of living in this area that Mr. Kingsmill 

had a lot of name recognition. I have heard of Mr. 

nngsmill; T have never heard of this gentleman. You live in 

the 

No, T don't. 

Don't you think name recognition has something to do with 
• 

the elections? 

Yes, sir. 

And if you can spend money you can also acquire name. 

recognition? 

Yes, sir. 

And they spent money and they got name recognition, 

didn't they? 

Well, I would speculate to think so, Your Honor. 

All right. 

THE COURT: Go ahead, T an letting you build your record. 

But a lot of this is, I think we arc wasting our time. But 

go ahead. 

BY BERMAN: 



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Would it have been desirable in your opinion .to build up 

your name recognition among the white electorate in Jefferson 

was advised by the other elected officials that were 

helping me in my race not to exploit the fact that T was 

black. 

Would it have been possible to increase your name 

recognition without somehow advertising the fact that you are 

black man? 

A No, T don't think so. 

THE COURT-: really think we are in a Catch-22. I don't 

know how you win an election if you don't advertise your name 

when the other people are advertising their names. So I just 

don't know what this means. 

BY THE TITNESS: 

Would you like me to answer? 

BY THE COURT: 

don't know how you expect them to know who you are if 

you are running. So if that's your purpose, T guess nobody 

can ever get elected. 

Would you like me to answer that? 

Certainly you can try and answer it. 

Okay, well --

Q I mean if you tell me how you can run an election, vote 

for you if nobody knows you are running and everybody else 



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knows everybody else is running you can tell me that, fine. 

I have listened to that theory. 

A Am I to attempt to answer? 

Go ahead, say whatever you wish. 

Well, our strategy, Your Honor, was to generate as much 

black vote, to work the black communities, the black 

churches, b lack organizations and to build up that vote, as 

high as we could. The strategy was in terms of our white 

campaign was to allow the Mayor, the City Councilmen, the 

School Board representative, those white elected officials 

who do - speak highly of me to allow them 4- e, 

the white,. as much white vote as we could 

try to generate 

get from those 

individuals rather than myself going out into the 

That partially answers, but if .they are going to do that, 
° 

they have to say who you are and your qualifications and have 

to make your name known; otherwise, nobody knows you are 

running. 

wpil, that was our strategy, to. lean on those folks to 

let those people deliver as much white vote as they could for 

me rather than myself going out c,-eating any kind of 

or.frontations over the situation relative to my race. 

BERMAN: No further questions, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: You really don't have to go through all this 

testimony to convince me that it would be difficult for you 

to win an election in a primarily white area. But I don't 



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thin you can win an election by not putting your name 

forward especially if everybody else is spending a lot of 

money putting their name forward and their qualifications and 

particularly when one of the candidates had as far as I'm 

concerned a great deal of name recognition. So let's go 

forward. 

NR. RODNEY: Just brief redirect. 

THE COURT: Sure. 

REDIRECT XAI1INATiON 

BY MR. RODNEY: 

Q l!r. Council, it wasn't your intention to keep your name 

and qualifications from the white voters, was it? 

A No, it r1/as not. 

was only your intention to keep your race from the. 

white voters, isn't that correct? 

That was the major concern. 

47,d that's the way that you were advised by the elected 

officials who supported you, in that election? 

We were advised in that manner because I felt that my 

qualifications were as good or better than my opponents'. 

experiences Ca 

My 

a trial attorney, my involvement as Assistant 

City Attorney, my serving as lagistrate Judge, that my 

qualifications would sog,-,, k for themselves. If we had to run 

a race where T didn't have the race question, then, of 

course, I could go out and just, you know, wave my 



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qualifications high.. But we were advised that they would 

have no problems getting my qualifications before the voters. 

It is a question they were concerning about: What the 

reaction would be toward my race. 

The money that you raised in the race, that was money 

that was raised primarily from the black community? 

So you had difficulty raising money from the white 

community in Jefferson Parish? 

A We were --

MR. PUGH: May it please the Court, I'm not sure that I 

went into any of that about --

THE COURT: Well, really it doesn't --I grant some 

leeway in that, but really your redirect should be concerned 

with the cross; otherwise, we will be here for a long time. 

But go ahead, I will let you answer the question. Go ahead, 

I mean ask the question, anyhow. 

BY MR. RODNEY: 

So the difficulty you were having in raising money was 

raising that money from the white community in Jefferson 

Parish? 

A Well, the funds that I did raise were, I guess, 90 

percent or better from the black community. I was promised 

funds from the white community that I never received. 

Q Okay, thank you, Mr. Council. 



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THE COURT: Any other questions of this witness? 

R. RODNEY: No, Your Honor, that's all the.questions we. 

have. 

BY THE COURT: 

Thank you, sir. 

(Witness is excused.) 

MR. BERMAN: Your Honor, United 

Lombard. 

C ails Edwin 



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EDWIN LONARD, 

called as a witness at the instance of the plaintiffs, after 

having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified a 

follows: 

BY DEPUTY NELSON: 

Q Please be seated and state your name for the record. 

Edwin Lombard. 

BY MR. BEREAN: 

A 

P 

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

Mr. Lombard, what parish are you a resident of? 

Orleans Parish 

And what is your race? 

Black. 

And what_ is your present position or occupation? 

A Clerk of Criminal District Court. 

Q And what do you do in the Criminal District Court? 

A I am administrator of the Court. I am the person 

responsible for the orderly flow of the records and documents 

to and from the Court. In addition to that .re manage the 

bond department for the Criminal District Court, property 

evidence and all of the functions that are associated with 

the Court and the Clerk's offices. 

And is that an elected position? 

A Yes, it is. 

And do you run from Orleans Parish as a whole? 



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Every 4 years. 

And how long have you been. serving as Clerk of the 

Criminal Court? 

A As of April 1st, last Saturday, 15 years. 

How many elections is that, how many times have you run? 

A Three (3), 4, yes, 4. 

Q Are you aware of any black man or black person who was 

elected to a parishwide office prior to your being elected to 

the Clerk of Criminal Court? 

A Two (7 ), I think 2, I'm sure, as a matter of fact. 

And while you were serving as Clerk of Criminal Court, 

you ran for Secretary of State in 1937, is that correct? 

A Yes, it is. 

That's a statewide office? 

A Yes, it is. 

During that campaign you had occasion to run in the 4 

parishes which constitute the First Supreme Court District 

Orleans, Jefferson Parish, St. Bernard and Plaquemines, js 

that right? 

A Yes. 

- - 

Could you just briefly describe the campaign activities 

you undertook in Or1.-,r,ns Parish? 

A Orleans Parish campaign activities were about what normal 

campaigning someone would have run in Orleans Parish; that 

is, once you qualify for office, you receive lots of letters 



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invitinz you to address various political' groups, social 

groups and civic groups to present your platform and your . 

candidacy. So it-was a typical :Jew Orleans-type campaign 

where there was at least 3, ,, maybe sometimes 5 meetings a 

night a forum or something you would go to and discuss your 

campaign. 

Was there any one particular portion of OrleansParish 

that you made your campaign appearances in? 

Entire City. There is no one particular area of the 

City. It was in all areas of the City. 

Would you now focus your attention on your activities in 

St. Bernard Parish. 

A There was no activity in St. Bernard Parish. I was not 

invited to one forum or one political meeting in St. Bernard 

Parish. 

Q. How about in Plaquemines Parish? 

Plaquemines Parish, T was invited to maybe 2 or 3 

meetings, and those meetings that was invited to were in 

bla.ck communitLes or black gatherings that were political 

gatherings supported by blacks. 

And how about Jefferson Parish? 

A Jefferson Parish I was invited to more than Plaquemines 

and St. Bernard. Jefferson Parish there may be about 10 

black groups I was invited to addressed and there were 2 

white groups, one on the East Bank and one on the West Bank 



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that I wa , inv'ted to address. 

id lo ,,, ople in attendance at those 2 functions that were 

majority white in attendance, how would you characterize the 

position or the occupation of those persons? 

Elected officials for the most part on the East Bank. On 

the West Bank it was some residences of Lafitte, but it was a 

political party for the re-election of the Mayor of Lafitte 

that I was invited to go and address. But it was elected 

officials and residents in. Lafitte, small community of 

Jefferson Parish on the West Bank. 

And is Lafitte majority white or majority black? 

THE COURT: Lafitte has about 1r.-;On registered voters, 

maybe that many. 

:BY. THE WITNESS: 

That's plenty if that many. It is a small area. 

THE COURT: 

BY THE WITNESS: 

A 

am think of Grand Ts1P has --

Grand Isle Lafitte is a small area. 

THE COURT: Lafitte is even smaller. 

BY R. BERI1AN: 

fl When you were invited to functions in Orleans Parish, 

could you characterize the people in attendance as being of 

one race? 

.There were functions, there were separate races and they 

were functions where there were a combination of races. Did 



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that occur in the other 3 parishes? 

A No. 

After the first election in 1937, you obtained a majority 

of the votes in Orleans Parish and finished, T.bPlievP the 

record rPfl ,,, otcz, almost 20 percent of the black vote and 

approximately ".,;0 percent of the white vote. Have you 

reviewed the election results of that election recently? 

A Yesterday. 

And based on your review of those election results, how 

did you fair in the parishes outside of Orleans Parish? 

Well, outsidP of Orleans Parish -- in Jefferson Parish? 

2Y THE COURT: 

Who was your opponent at that time? 

T was 10 opponents, 10 opponents in the first primary 

election, I think 11 of us in the fi eld. 

0 T.-lho was finally 

Fox l'cKeithen, Walter XCKeithen was the major candidate 

along with •ike Cutshaw from Baton Rouge and Jefferson 

Parish. I think he received 21 percent of the vote. 

3v MR. BERMAN: 

Total votes? 

A Total votes, some 27,000 votes. In PlaqueminPq T 

finished second and third in St. Bernard. I'm not familiar 

with the number, but out of the 11 candidates. 

And in the It pariShes. do you recall how you finished in 



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the field of 11 candidates, wherr, you finished? 

T would guess second. I didn't total that, you know, but 

would think the strong New Orleans vote would make it 

cond. 

If you finished first with a plurality with the 4 

parishes, would that have any significance to a black 

candidate in a majority white electorate who had to go in a 

runoff election? 

A Oh, in the runoff that would be insignificant, I think. 

Why is that? 

Because if you look at the primary votes, if you add all 

of the :70t95 of the candidates assuming that the people would 

vote the same way, then I would maintain my numbers, and the 

eventual winner would get all.of..those votes, all the 

majority of them -- let me say the majority of them. 

With regard to the votes you obtained in Orleans Parish, 

the record reflects you obtained approximately 30 percent of 

the votes cast by white voters. In your experience as 

running for office, how does that reflect upon your previous 

success with white voters? 

A Well, until I really looked at it, I was terribly 

disappointed because in the past in Orleans Parish I have run 

with such great success. Of course, the first time I ran I 

was an incumbent, and I think I received about 22 to 23 

percent of the white vote as a new guy on the block. But 



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after that I think T would receive ;u, 75 percent. Of 

course, I have only had a black candidate oppose me and a 

Hispanic candidate oppose me since then. But this is the 

first time I have run when they have had a lot of candidates 

and lots of different races. And a 30 percent really 

surprised me; I-thought T would do much better in the white 

community than 30 percent in New Orleans. 

What did you feel your recognition w,hin a white 

community is? 

A Well, the reason I think recognition should be higher 

having been in office for at that time 13 years. and having 

run 3 times, 3 or 4 times before that. 

In addition to that my relationship with the community at 

whole is one that is quite different from other 

'officials. I at least have an opportunity to meet a lot of 

people in New Orleans 2 or times a year as the custodian of 

the voting machines and the chief elections official in the 

City of New Orleans. I have to 20 out and meet commissioners 

and people who work *polling places. So I'm about titled up.-

Q •Based on your experience in running in the 4-parish area, 

what would be the expected result of a black candidate in 

obtaining white voter support in the 4 parishes? 

There would be an expctatior, I suppose, that anybody 

who submits their name for candidacy that they could get the 

vote. But based upon my returns, it would be very difficult, 



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it would be very difficult particular in Plaquemines and St. 

3ernard and certain areas of Jefferson. 

In comparing the amounts of money that you spent in your 

campaign to the other people who ran for Secretary of State, 

would you characterize your campaign as one of the higher or 

mor ,-, expensive campaigns? 

A *:•!y‘ campaign, my personal campaign I think I am probably 

the recordholder in the State •of Louisiana for maximizing 

rars in voter turnouts. I think I spent a total of 

25,000 and received almost 300,000 votes. And the reason 

for that is it is very difficult to raise money. 

Based on what • is it difficult to raise money? 

A Particularly in races like that when most people who give 

o campaigns have the perception that you can't win. -here 

is no hope for you to win, they won't give you any money. 

There is not much campaign contribution coming from the black 

community, serious campaign contribution. We have to rely 

upon our white friends and white constituents, white business 

partners and associates. And lots of people just are not 

going to give you money when they don't t'-:ink you have a 

chance of, legitimate chance of winning 

And given the racial voting patterns at least within the 

4 parishes at issue here, it is your opinion that there is 

not a great chance of a black candidate to win? 

A Not as presently constituted, no. 



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BERMAN: Jo further questions, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Do you have any questions, Mr. Rodney? . 

?IR. RODNEY: Just a few, Your Honor. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION 

BY ME. RODNEY: 

Hr. Lombard, you mentioned that you were invited to more 

political activities in Jefferson Parish than you were in St. 

Bernard Parish. You received some strong political support 

in Jefferson Parisil, did you not? 

A Yes. 

Q .What support did you receive in Jefferson Parish? 

A I had.Councilman Ed Muniz. T had agreements from 

Lawrence Chehardy, the Assessor, several Justices, Constables 

and Justice of the P--acr, in Harahan and in Terrytown, Sal - 

forgot his name -- there were at least 15 or 20 elected 

officials at the meeting at Billy K's who agreed to support 

me. 

In Jefferson Parish? 

A In Jefferson Parish including the Assessor and Councilman 

Euniz who organized the meeting. 

Did they .subsequently come out and support you during 

this election? 

A 

As the Clerk of the Criminal District Court, you are 

charged with receiving the election results in Orleans. 



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Parish? 

Yes, entire election process, I think, in terms of 

mechanics of it. 

You receive those election returns in your office? 

A Yes. 

Do you announce the results of those elections to the 

mPrii;,? 

A Yes, we make it available 'for the media election night. 

And do you provide the results of those elections to 

State election officials? 

A Yes. 

And during the 15 years that you have been charged with 

receiving and announcing and distributing those election 

results to the media and to the State elected officials, have 

you had occasions to review races involving general election 

involving black and white candidates? 

A qh ,", yes. 

Have you found in your experience in as the chief 

elections officer for the Parish of Orleans that there is a 

pattern of racially polarized voting in Orleans Parish? 

A Mere are patterns. I can look at returns early enough 

and look at pi-ecincts and I can almost tell you how the vote 

is going to turn out. 

Q Based on whether or not the precincts are black or 

whether or not they are white? 



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And how they vote, yes. 

And wh.:,--t;h ,==r or not the candidate is black or whether or 

not the candidate is white? 

A And turnout, yes. 

MR. RODNEY: Th at's all the questions we have, Your 

Honor. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION 

BY YIP,. PUGH: 

Good morning, Mr. Lombard. 

A Hi. 

Tell me about your white crossover vote election in 

Orleans Parish, has it been substantial or what's been the 

effect of crossover vote? 

First election when I defeated the ineumbent, I think I 

had 20 or so percent of the vote. And since then 'I have not 

n 

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a major opponent, so I have had, I have won by 

nificant numbers of votes. I think that second time I ran 

I received 113,000, and the opponent received 20,000. I was 

unopposed the next term. The last time I ran- I received 

100,000 votes, and my opponent received 29,000 votes. • So 

there had .to be a lot o crossover vote, really no contest. 

And in connection with this Secretary of State's campaign 

that you have been testifying concerning you say there were 

11 candidates running for the office 

A Yes, sir, I think 11 candidates. 



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How many of were white and how many of them were 

black? 

Well, one black candidate withdrew too late to get his 

name off the ballot. So I don't think his vote was counted. 

There was one other black. 

One in addition to the one that withdrew? 

A Yes. 

So counting yourself there were 2 black candidates and 

there would have been 8 or 9 depending on whether this person 

dropped out whitr. candidates? 

A Right. 

Was Fox NcKeithen the lead vote getter in this area? 

Not in New Orleans. 

Who was? 

I was. 

Fox -- in the Orleans area if you took the 4 parishes 

that you have been testifying concerning and isolate those 4 

parishes and take your race and the results of your race,-

isn't it a matter of fact that was representative of the 

whole state, you would have been in the runoff election? 

A I didn't have those. If T could look at those if you 

know the figures, tell me. •I didn't add them up, but I would 

add them. 

You don't know? 

A T have them, I did not add my totals as opposed to Mr. 



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c.Keithen's totals and the rest of the guys' totals in the 4 

parishes. I did not add them. 

You are telling me you don't know how you came out in the 

4 parishes? 

A T would have to T led Orleans Parish with 53 percent 

of the vote. I would probably be leading assuming that the 

numbers hold off even in Orleans or Jefferson. I did not 

look at them, but I would assume that. 

Q The 4 parishes you were no lower than second? 

A No lower than .second. 

Of the 4, therefore, you would have been in a runoff? 

A That's correct. 

Q. If that was the category we were considering? 
- . 

A Right, I will agree with that. 

0 You made a statement that I would like to follow up. on. 

You said something about typical New Orleans, and I would 

like to explore with you what you meant by typical New 

Orleans. I think it was in a context of these organizations. 

A Uh-huh. 

Q Tell me something if you will about the black 

organizations in Orleans. 

BERMAN: Objection, I believe the testimony was 

typical of New Orleans referred to the manner in which Mr. 

Lombard was received in both the black and white communities 

and the manner in which .he appeared and the functions within 



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those oranizations. 

THE COURT: He is under cross-examination. He said he 

could handle the question. He said, he just said he 

understands. Didn't you hear him? You want to read back 

what the witness said? I understood --

BY THE COURT: 

Did you say you understood the question? 

didn't think he was finished asking. 

saying anything. 

I didn't remember 

THE COURT: Let's read back 

what was said. 

THE COURT: Somebody said I understood. I thought him to 

say that. I don't know if you heard him. I.thought he did. 

MR. PUGH: T want to know .somethinrz'about his political 

organizations in Orleans Parish. 

BY THE WITNESS:. 

Okay. 

MR. RODNEY: I want to object, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Overruled. I overrule the objection. He is 

under cross-examination. I think he has a right from what I 

heard on direct to ask him this question. He is under cross— 

examination. I don't understand the basis of your objection. 

-1R. RODNEY: Well, not only was I objecting to that it 

was beyond the scope of this witness' testimony, but I was 

also objecting on the basis that I think that the subject 



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matter is irrelevant, and the witness has not qualified 

himself in any way as having been --

THE COUTr: Then if he is not qualified, I would have to 

reject half of the questions that were asked of him of 

opinion evidence. 

MR. RODNEY: I just meant as to that particular result. 

THE COURT: Well, overruled. 

BY_MR..PUGH: 

How familiar are'you with the political organizations in 

Orleans Parish? 

A Very familiar. 

Q Can you tell me how many of such organizations exfst in 

Orleans Parish? 

A No one can tell you that. 

Can you tell me how many of them if one were to 

characterize them as principal organizations there might be? 

I suppose the press makes principal organizations. So I 

would have to assume that according to what the press 

determines as principal organizations maybe 4. 

Four (4) and name the 4 that you know. 

A I would say those would be the Southern Organization for 

Unified Leadership (SOUL), COUP, Community Organization for 

Urban Development or something, COUP; BOLD, Uptown Black 

Organization for Leadership Development and LIFE. 

Q What about DAWN, I have heard it? 



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DAWN? Again it depends upon the who, where you are 

running and whose opinion you get who is major and who is 

minor. I didn't get DAWN's endorsement. 

Q .You did not get it? 

A No. 

I take it you got the other endorsements? 

A No, I didn't gat LIFE's either. 

How about the other 2? 

A Did. 

In connection with these endorsements, tell me what 

occurs, will you, how you get an endorsement. 

Well, it is no different between white or black groups 

who are political alphabet groups as we referred to. You are 

invited up, you are given so m ny -min.utes to speak and to try. 

to convince the members that you ought to get their 

endorsement. And sometimes they vote, sometimes they tell 

you to come back later, they call you later. And you know it 

sometimes you just wind up on the ballot, you never know. 

Are you not expected to place some money with that 

organization in connection with the --

Vt:7. 

Go ahead, sir. 

A I've had some great luck with some friends. They know I 

was broke when I got there. So.it wasn't a matter of owing 

any money.: You are expected to pay your pro rata share, and 



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suppose, yes. 

Q Pro rata share of what? 
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Whatever the cost that the organization determines for 

postage and printing and get out th:., vote. 

And talking about get out the vote, do they put people 

around the polling place in connection with getting out the 

vot e? 

Yes, that's the practice, to put people around the 

polling places, yes. 

Does the organization attempt to get the people to vote - 

for the candidates that they. are supporting? 

A Yes.. 

Q And has your experience been that if successful in 

getting he candidates, getting the people to, voters to 

support the candidates that they are supporting? 

A My experien-ce? 

Yes. 

A I-3T honest opinion? 

Q Yes. 

A In the past they were. I think that the media now has 

taken over from groups. I think that if you look at election 

results in terms of who is supporting who, it is the people 

who can get th ,, Channel 4 ads on with the money, the $1600 a 

minute ads and the newspaper ads and the mass media. I think 

the public is getting to the point now where the person with 



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the money who can afford the campaigns are likely to get 

And that's an expensiveprocess? 

A Very expensive process. 

6 Is what you are telling me that an organization that's 

supporting a candidate given out his material telling them I 

guess who they want him to vote for that that's overridden, 

that support from the organization is overridden by the news 

media, is that what you are saying? 

A I'm saying that in the natural evolution of political 

organizations in New Orleans we are getting to the point now 

in tpe history of political organizations in New Orleans 

where we have a more informed, intelligent and independent 

electorate who are now relying more on whaL, they get from 

commercials, advertisements, articles in the newspaper than 

from ballots and lottery lists as we did in the past. And it 

is the case in some parts of other parishes or not. I ' m 

saying the electorate is .more informed and more intelligent 

and more informed. 

And the ballots and lottery lists, tell m_ about the 

ballots and the lottery. 

A Lottery lists are not that prevalent here in New Orleans, 

but they are printed ballots with a list and names of 

candidates on it, and the name would be of the organization 

usually in the organizations' color. People can associate 



117 

color, and they are mailed out or handed out at the polls. 

has the number. that the people to whom they 

expect them to vote for, is that the whole idea? 

A It was to suggest and recommend those candidates, yes. 

And those calldidates as you have testified earlier are 

the ones that put money? 

A 7 have no idea, not necessarily. 

THE COURT: There is an objection. 

MR. PUGH: Thank you very much. 

MR. RnDNEY: Withdraw the objection. 

REDIRECT EXAMIrATION 

BY MR. BERMAN: 

Mr. Lombard, based on your experience or knowledge of 

these political organizations, are you expected to pay your 

money before you get your endorsement sort of like a quid pro 

quo or does the money come as a pro rata share of what the 

expenses are for theorganization? 

A There is no handbook for political organizations. I have 

not seen a handbook. Everybody operates differently. I - 

don't know who does what or where some people will have a 

budget together when you get there and say this is here and 

they will show you --

THE COURT: Mr. Berman, before I had this job and can't 

involved in politics, I was well aware of what those get 

organizatIons do, and I think you really have to be around 



118 

hre, and T can almost take judicial cognizance that those 

organizations don't represent you unless you put some money 

out to then. If that's what you are trying to disprove, you 

are wrong. 

BERMAN: Your Honor --

THE COURT: I mean anybody around here if you take the 

time to know that, nobody in those organizations is going to 

support you unless you pay for that endorsement. Now, 

whether you are paying your pro rata share or whether it goes 

to ballot pushers, it all goes to what goes to what expenses. 

This is really almost insignificant to what's in the task. 

before us. But all you are indicating is your lack of 

knowledge of what goes in those political organizations. If 

you would bring all the people in hare and we would have the 

time to crass-examine them, you would find out exactly what 

an saying is correct, that those organizations aren't going 

to represent anybody who doesn't pay their share, and their 

share can be what the leaders of the organization says is 

their share. Those are the political facts of life. 

HR. BERMAN: That's what I understand, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Well, 

BY 2111. BERAN: 

^n , . 

• 

Nr. Lombard, when you were endorsed by s-.veral political 

groups and not endorsed by other political groups, you were 

expected to provide an amount of money to cover what was 



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explaind to you .as the expenses? 

-THE COURT: Th.,, t's rep etitious. We hay: Yiready gone 

into that. . 

3Y THE WITNESS: : 

A Somebody misunderstands me. I said that if you look at 

the Campaign Finances Act, the majority of those groups 

endorsed me free. They did not charge  me a quarter, nothing. 

They printed me, they carried me. 

BY THE COURT: 

Certainly they carried some people because they wanted 

that name on the ballot so they can give some prominence 

the names that aren't being carried. Come on, I'm 

familiar 

THE COURT: Anybody who lives here and has seen these 

organizations and been a part of the political process knows 

that backwards and forwards. 

BERMAN: No further questions, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: You want to prove what happens, bring those 

people in here and let them tell how they endorse someone. 

tie all know, I don't think anybody can doubt that they take 

some name S which they, sometimes they put somebody's name on 

the ballot they haven't even contacted them. All, you have to 

do is be around here for some elections. 

BY THE COURT: 

- Am T right, Mr. Lombard?. 



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Yes, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: And T can also take judicial cognizance of 

the fact that he is a very, very popular candidate. I would • 

hate to run against him. All right, let's recess until 2 

o'clock. 

(Court recessed at 12:40 p.m.) 



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DROCz'EDIi•TGS 

t 1 r1 RODNEY: 

AFTERNOON SESSIOIT 

(Wednesday, April 5, 1989) 

(Court reconvened at 1:58 p.m.) 

T would like the Court to know that Mr. 

Ernest M. Morial is f'.erc in Court today, that the plaintiffs 

(4n not intend to call Mr. Morial as a witness except for the 

possibility of rebuttal testimony. 

THE COURT: All right, since the plaintiffs apparently 

indicated that they would call Mr. Morial, I presume they are 

calling him and tendering him 

to examine him? 

to -the other side if they wish 

MR. PUGH: I apologize, Your Honor, .1 was looking at 

something. 

THE COURT: Well, Mr. Rodney is saying that he listed Mr. 

Morial as a witness. 

MR. PUGH: Yes, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: He presently does not intend to .call him. He 

may call him as a rebuttal witness. So having indicated to 

you that he would call him, he is under an obligation to have 

him present. He is now present and he is not going to use 

him, but you can use him if you wish, and he is tendering him 

to you, I guess, for cross-examination at this time if you 

wish. 

MR. PUGH: T waive that right at this moment, Your Honor. 



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And if he calls him on rebuttal 

THE COURT: Of course, if he calls him on rebuttal, then 

you have the right to cross-examine him at that time. 

Mr. n:)rial, you are excused unless you want to stay and 

hear these erudite proceedings. 

BERis:AN: If we may proceed? 

THE COURT: All right. 

MR. BERMAN: At this time the plaintiffs would like to 

call Mr. Silas Lee to the stand. 

THE COURT: All right. Is Mr. Lee an expert witness? 

MR. RODNEY: Yes, he is. Hr. Lee has included a 

substantial portion of his qualifications in the report that 

is submitted as his direct testimony. So we would offer him 

now as an expert in .tie area of -political 

consulting. 

THE COURT: All right, are there any questions on the 

voir dire, Mr. Pugh? 

MR. PUGH: No, Your HonDr. 

THE COURT: There are no questions? All right, the Court 

will recognize him as such an expert and will treat his 

testimony as 

campaig •n 

such an expert. Do we have a copy of his --

MR .. PUGH: Yes, do I have one with me? 

THE COURT: Do you have a copy of his report?. 

MR...ROSENBAUM: Yes, we do. 

MR. RODNEY: Dos the Court need a copy? 



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71-', 7 COURT: I have a copy of your report which doesn't 

appear to be dated. Oh, yes, it is dated March 28, 1989, on 

the second page. 

SILAS T717 

r.Filef: as an expert witness at the instance of the 

plaintiffs, after having been first duly sworn, was examined 

and testified as follow: 

BY THE COURT: 

If you were called upon to testify herein on direct 

examination, would your testimony be as set out in your 

report? 

Q 

Yes. 

Which has been designated Exhibit 4. All right, that 

will be your testimony on direct. 

THE COURT: Mr. Pugh, you may cross-examine. 

NR. PUGH: Thank you, Your Honor. 

CROSS-EXAMTNATTON 

BY MR. PUGH: 

fl Good evening, Mr. Lee. 

A Good evening. 

0 Lee, in your report you have include Tammany, 

which came as a surprise to me, and I wonder why you have St. 

Tammany in your report. 

A We included the metropolitan New Orleans area which does 

include St. Tammany. . 



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fl Obviously you .are aware of the fact that St. Tammany is 

not within the 4 parishes that are the. subject of this 

lawsuit? 

A Yes. 

0 You have indicated that it costs $100,000 to run a 

campaign, I believe, in Orleans today, judicial race. 

A A' citywide race yes. 

A citywide race. 

Citywide race for the purposes of the record I take it' . 

that Orleans Parish and citywide, are they the same 

P.Po57 ., 2phic area or not? 

A Right, Orleans Parish itself would be considered 

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citywide. 

0 Thank you very much. You handled Mr. Dannel's race, did 

you not? 

A TIP were an advisor to Dennis Dannel in his attempt 2 

times before for judgeship. 

4 Can you tell me how much you lent on each of those 

occasions? 

A No, I cannot. 

Do you know if he spent $100,000? 

A it. was significantly less than that. 

Q Did he win? 

A The last time he did win; the third time he won -- 2 



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previous times he lost. 

Do you know whether he spent more money on the third time 

than he did the first 2 times? 

A 

So the answer is you don't know? 

Q 

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No, it was not. I was not that involved the third time. 

T don't know. 

Were .you involved with Johnson in 1934? 

NO, qas not. 

Do you have personal knowledge as to what he may have 

spent? 

A No, I don't. 

What is this table that you have on page 2 of your 

report, what's that supposed to signify? 

A That is supposed to signify the number of registered 

voters by total in race as it .relates to Orleans JefZerson 

and St. Bernard and a percent of the registered black voters 

as of 1987. 

You have not indicated anything reflective of a 

percentage. It is your purpose is that somebody interpolate 

this on a percentage basis? 

I have oercentage of black voters? 

Yes. 

A Yes. 

M. PUGH: May I approach the witness, Your Honor? 

want to be sure we are reading out of the same report. 



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THE COURT: Yes. 

(Counsel Pugh shows document to 

the witness.) 

BY MR. PUGH: 

is that your report, sir? 

A Right. 

ER. RODNEY:. May I see that? This is from your 

affidavit? 

BY THE WITNESS: 

A Right. 

BY MR. PUGH: 

That's from the affidavit.. He wants the report. Do you 

have a copy of your report? 

A 

THE COURT: You need a copy? 

MR. RODNEY: At this time the witness is referring to his 

affidavit, which had been submitted earlier in this case, and 

I will give him a copy of his report. (Counsel Rodney gives 

document to the witness.) 

BY MR. PUGH: 

in your report on page 2 and specifically as relates to 

the paragraph entitled Voter Registration Breakdown, no 

attempt was made there to percentage those figures, was it? 

A No, it's not on here. 

-MR._ PUGH: That's all the questions I have, and thank 



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you, Your Honor. 
• 

THE COURT: Any other? 

MR. BERMAN: No questions, Your Honor. 

MR. RODNEY: No questions, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: All right, thank you very much 

(Witness is excused.) 

THE COURT: Call your next witness. 

MR. QUIGLEY: The next witness is Professor Cassimere. 



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RAPHAEL rip , 01-;,..zrOV 

called as an ex.pert witness at the instance of the 

plaintiffs, after having been first duly sworn, was examined 

arid testified as follows: 
• 

BY DEPUTY NELSON: 

Please be seated and state your name for the record.. 

Raphael Raohnl Cassimere. I'm associate professor of 

history at the University of New Orleans. 

MR. QUIGLEY: Your Honor, I direct the Court's attention 

to P-3 which has already been admitted into evidence on 

behalf of plaintiffs. It is a 4-page typed document, the 

first page most of which contains the personnel and 

professional background of Professor Cassimere. And on the 

basis of that I tender him as an expert in the field of 

Louisiana's continuing history of racial_ discrimination. 

THE. COURT: Well, T will qualify him as an expert 

historian and permit him to give opinion evidence as to 

racial, continuing racial discrimination. I think that would 

be the proper 

fl. QUIGLEY: That would be fine. 

THE COURT: I thin!: that's a better category. 

QUIGLEY: Okay, that would be fine, Judge. 

THE COURT: I'm prepared to do that unless you have 

MR. PUGH: I have no objections. 

THE COURT: I will qualify him as an expert historian and 

.00 1••• 



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permit him to give opinion testimony as set out in his 

report. 

BY THE COURT: 

Q All right, Dr. Cassimere, if you were called upon to 

testify in this matter on direct examination, would your 

testimony be as set out in your report? 

A Yes. 

Q And by your report I mean the report that you rendered 

here referred to as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 3. And it appears to 

be undated, but it is referred to as Exhibit 3. 

A Yes, I have a copy of that. 

MR. PUGH: Are you ready, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

CR6SS-EXAMINATION 

BY MR. PUGH: 

Q Good evening, sir. 

A Good evening. 

Q I want to ask you a few things about your report if T 

may. First, I'm appreciative of the fact that you have taken 

us back to slavery time, however, I would like to confine my 

questions to the last 25 or 30 years. 

A Certainly. 

Q In that regard can you tell me whether or not there has 

been any official discrimination in the State of Louisiana in 

the last 25 years? 



130 ' 

A Certainly. 

Q All right and please tell me in what areas there has been 

official discrimination in the last 25 years? 

A In higher education. There is a case.before the Court 

presently ordering Louisiana to dismantle the system of its 

system of higher education that has been operated on a 

separate and non-equal basis. 

Q All right, sir. And any other instances? 

A Certainly. We have had recently 4 settlement between the 

Justice Department and the State Department of Transportation 

in which there was evidence that-the State Civil Service 

System did not -- failure for black Civil Service workers and 

promote them in the Department of TransportAtion. 

Q Any other instances? 

A There have been lawsuits won challenging unfair and in 

which the legislative districts have been drawn, Major v.  

Treen which the congressional districts were unfairly drawn. 

Most recently Jefferson Parish has settled a redistricting 

case for the school board. That has been a case where the 

City of Gretna has been ordered to redistrict itself so that 

blacks would have a fair chance of election of one of its 

members. 

Q So in those you all you say those are each instances of 

official discrimination? 

A Absolutely. 



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Q Let's talk about higher education. 

A Yes. 

Q Isn't it a fact that Louisiana has an open enrollment 

system and that a student may attend any college or 

university of his or her choice? 

A Yes. 

Q Are you aware of any of the background in connection with 

the suit to which you alluded as to whether or not and the 

settlement of the suit earlier on both Grambling and Southern 

what they received in connection with the settlement of the 

suit and at that point there was an order issued by the Court 

in that? 

A I'm aware that they agreed to the Consent Decree. 

-- THE COURT: -- W6-11, I at-one of the members of- the Court 

involved in that suit; in fact, I am the writing Judge of the 

3-Judge Court. So I am fully aware of that proceeding and 

what happened in that suit is part of the public record --

MR. PUGH: Yes, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: -- part of the record of this Court to which 

anyone can refer to if they wish. 

MR. PUGH: I will be pleased to move on concerning the 

Court's knowledge and background of the matter. I was 

chairman of the Board of Regents when the settlement was 

made, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Well, I don't want to comment on it because 



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it is presently being re-litigated as to certain phases of 

it. 

MR. PUGH: Thank you, Your Honor. 

BY MR. PUGH: 

Q Now, if I may in connection with your report you said 

that there was a statewide voter purge. When was there a 

statewide voter purge? 

A There was an attempt on the part of certain parties 

during the senatorial campaign between Henson Moore and John 

Breaux which was targeted at black voters. 

Q And what area did that so-called purge cover, didn't 

cover the State, did it? 

A Well, it didn't cover anywhere because there was an 

injunction enjoining that action. 

Q Do you know whether or not the action prior to the time 

it was enjoined was a statewide based action as distinguished 

from a particular area within the State? 

A It was targeted at heavily black precincts. 

Q In what- parish 'or parishes? 

A Specifically Orleans and East Baton Rouge. 

Q To the best of your knowledge, it didh't involve anyone 

or any of the parishes in northwest Louisiana or northeast 

Louisiana, did it? 

A I don't think it did. 

Q So then it's not a statewide voter purge, was it? 



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A It had statewide implications. It affected an office 

that was going to be contested on a statewide basis. 

Q And it wasn't the State of Louisiana that caused a purge 

to occur, rather than it was the parties or candidates in 

connection with that race? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know whether or not teachers are paid the same 

salary from Louisiana whether they are black or white for the 

same job? 

A Paid the same salary, within parishes I assume that's 

what you are asking me? 

Q. Yes, sir, -do you know whether or not if one is called 

upon to do work on a minimum pay scale the same is true for 

black -or white, is it not? 

A I'm pretty sure that's true. 

Q Do you think the opportunity is pretermitted on the issue 

in the higher education case that professors are pa-id the 

same salary for the same kind of work? 

A I know they are not. 

Q They are not within the same institutions? 

A Within the- same institutions. 

Q Explain what you know. 

A Well, the salary for members of the universities and 

colleges varies greatly by discipline, by experience, 

publications. It is much more subjective than would be true 



13 14 

of public school teachers who are paid according to the 

salary schedule. 

Q Well, it is not a black or white question, though, is it? 

A We would hope that it would not be. 

Q I want your answer as to whether or not in your opinion 

it is or it is not. 

.A I don't have any hard evidence that it is, sir. 

MR. PUGH: I tender the witness. 

MR. RODNEY: No questions, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Thank you very much. 

(Witness is excused.) 

MS. REED: At this time plaintiffs would call Dr. Richard 

Engstrom to the stand. He will be testifying, we are 

tendering him as an expert witness being an expert in' Urban -

political systems and election systems. Dr. Engstrom has 

submitted .2 reports, the first of which is labeled 

Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1, and he has another report labeled 

Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2. His vitae appears in Plaintiffs' 

Exhibit 1. 

THE COURT: For what purpose did you wish to qualify him? 

MS. REED: Dr. Engstrom is an expert in urban politics 

and election systems. 



135 

RICHARD L. ENGSTROM, 

called as an expert witness at the instance of the 

plaintiffs, after having been first duly sworn, was examined 

and testified as follows: 

BY DEPUTY NELSON: 

Q Please be seated. 

BY THE COURT: 

Q I guess your field would be political science if I had to 

have a field? 

A That would be the most general area. That's what my 

degree is in and my faculty position. 

THE COURT: Do you want to question him on his voir dire, 

because.I am prepared to qualify him as an expert .political 

scientist and permit him to give opincOn testimony in that 

area that has just been referred to by Ms. Reed? 

MR. PUGH: Thank you, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: I will treat him as such an expert. 

BY THE COURT: 

Q If called upon to testify on direct examination, would 

your testimony be as set forth in Plaintiffs' Exhibits 1 and 

2? That's your report dated -- well, let's say, likewise, 

don't think it's dated. 

A I don't think it's dated per se turned in as of the due 

date for exhibits. 

Q That's all right. I was just trying .to, I think 



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Plaintiffs' 1 and 2 will be sufficient identification. 

A Yes, my testimony would reflect the contents of those 2 

reports. 

Q All right. 

MR. PUGH: May I proceed? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION 

BY MR. PUGH: 

Q Have you ever served as consultant to any candidate in 

the judicial race? 

•No, I have not. 

Q • Is your experience as an expert, in your -experience as an 

expert have you ever developed any districting plans for 

local government .or state governments? 

A Yes, I have. 

And which ones have you done that for? 

A I have developed districting plans for the City of 

Gretna, Louisiana; for the City of Amite, Louisiana; 

Sarasota, Florida; cases involving those political 

jurisdictions, not for the cities themselves. 

Q. You worked out a districting plan for each one of those? 

A Yes. 

Q And what cases are you currently serving as an expert? 

A I am currently retained as an expert in a case involving 

Bleckley County, Georgia, and 2, I guess consolidated cases 



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or one party may be an intervenor in the trial judge's case 

in the State of Texas. 

Q Then you have been involved in, you were involved in the 

Clark case, were you not? 

A Yes, I was. 

Q And the Clark case relates to the District Judges and the 

Court of Appeal Judges for the State of Louisiana, does it 

not? 

That's correct. 

Q You say you were involved with the Texas case? 

A I am currently involved with the case involving the 

election of Judges in both Dallas County, Texas, and Harris 

County, Texas.-

Q And are you involved on the plaintiff's side or the 

defendant's side in that ldtigation? 

A Plaintiff's. 

MR. PUGH: May lapproach the witness, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

(Counsel Pugh shows document to 

the witness.) 

BY MR. PUGH: 

Q I have now handed you, sir, some of the exhibits that are 

furnished in connection with this trial by opposing Counsel, 

and I would like for you to look at Government Exhibit 4, 

please. 



138 * 

A All right. 

Q Based on this map would you say that the black population 

in Orleans and Jefferson Parish is geographically compact? 

A Black population across the 2-parish area? 

Black population in Orleans and Jefferson Parish, is it 

geographically compact? 

A Parishes individually or across the 2 parishes? 

Across the 2 parishes. 

A If you take into account the numbers of people reflected 

in these precincts, yes, I would say that they are relatively 

concentrated in Orleans Parish. 

Q Geographically compact As the question I asked. 

A It depends. These units do not contain equal numbers of 

black people. So most of the black people in this 2-parish 

area are located in these red units. In Orleans Parish from 

that sense they are geographically compact. 

Q But not ot'.trwise? 

A Well, there are obviously blacks living out in the 

western portions of Jefferson Parish. 

If you look at Exhibit No. 5, please, in that same group 

that should be Orleans Parish, and is the black population in 

Orleans Parish is it geographically compact? 

A Yes, I believe it is. 

Q Excuse me, did you answer me? 

A Yes, I said I believe it is. 



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Q You believe it is, thank you. 

If you look at Government's Exhibit.6 they are referring 

to Jefferson Parish. Based on this map would you say that 

the black population is in Jefferson Parish is geographically 

compact? 

A This is a map of registered voters, not population. 

As it reflects registered voters, is that geographically 

compact? 

A No, I would not call that compact. 

And why not? 

A They are spread in portions of both the West Bank and the 

East Bank. 

Q If you look at Exhibits 7 and 9 --
_ 

A Yes, sir. 

Q If you look at those 2 and would you refer back to 

Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2 where I think you had prepared a map. 

Do you have a copy of your exhibit of Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2 

with you there at the stand? 

A Yes, I believe I do. And may I note that this says 

Plaintiffs' Illustrative Apportioned District. I'm reading 

out of the same thing as on 9. 

Yes, sir. 

A There is an error in the way that district is 

represented. These 2, the district outside of Gretna is .only 

one precinct deep going from the river south. So the line 



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you will see, for example, just about the middle of the map 

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you will see the designation for Precinct 

Q Yes, sir. 

A That I believe is 7th Street. That runs, that's the 

southern boundary, and this district is the southern boundary 

of this district at that point is 7th Street running all the 

way over to 1st Avenue. So, in other words, this 

illustration of the district goes a little bit too far south 

from mine. I would trust it is reflected accurately on 

plaintiffs' exhibit. 

MR. PUGH: May I approach the witness, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

BY MR. PUGH: 

• 

(Counsel Pugh approaches the 

witness and shos him a 

document.) 

Q If you would be kind enough, please, sir, to look at 

Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2. There is a difference between that 

and the '79 you have been testifying about, is there not? 

A Yes, there is. 

Q Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2 reflects 2 different maps, and each 

of those maps are different from '79, aren't they?. 

A Yes. 

Q If you look at, Government's Exhibit 14, which would be 

one of those maps that are together there, and if you will 



1141 

just hold 2 for a while. 

THE COURT: I presume there is some purpose in, you're 

going to connect up what you mean and what,you mean to convey 

to me by knowing the differences in these maps. 

MR. PUGH: Because we have an instance where an expert is 

saying in his Exhibit 2 a portion of the Jefferson Parish 

could be placed within Orleans Parish to -satisfy one man/one 

vote. And then the Governmental exhibit that you now have in 

your left hand purportedly is for the same purpose, and they 

got 2 different lines. So they couldn't be the same, Your 

Honor. This was the only purpose for it, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Well, you don't have a jury here. It's all 

right to entertain a little argument at this time. 

Government Exhibits 7 and 9.were prepared for this case -or 

were prepared for another case originally? 

MR. PUGH: They were for this case, Your Honor-. The 

exhibits are for this case. They were prepared solely for 

this case. 

MR. BERMAN: That's correct, Your Honor. 

MR. PUGH: Yes. 

THE COURT: And the exhibits attached to Plaintiffs' 

Exhibit 2 were prepared solely for this case? 

MR. PUGH: That is right, Your Honor. And maybe it is 

that the plaintiffs are going in one direction, and the 

Government is going in another because they are 2 different 



1142 

exhibits, and they reflect 2 different parties in this case. 

THE COURT: And you say this witness' exhibit was 

prepared for what purpose? 

MR. PUGH: For this trial, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: And to show what? 

MR. PUGH: That they were prepared, I believe, for the 

purpose of advising the Court of how one might take Orleans 

Parish and add additional areas, in this instance an area, 

part of Jefferson Parish to comply with some sort of one 

person/one vote in the event that the Court wanted to know 

how such a district could be drawn bearing in mind that 

that's not suggesting that the remaining districts by a long 

shot would satisfy any one man/one vote requirsement, Your 

Honor.. 

MS. REED: Your Honor, let the plaintiffs' attorney 

please address the reason that this was produced because it 

is not quite accurate. 

THE COURT: I'm trying to find out why he is questioning 

the witness along this line. And as I said since we don't 

have a jury I am anticipating argument. So I realize what 

Mr. Pugh says is not evidence, but I am trying to understand 

why he is going into that line of questioning, otherwise, it 

doesn't mean anything to me. It is not apparent to me on its 

face what the purpose of the questioning was. All right, I 

understand. 



1113 

MR. PUGH: Thank you, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: • In other words, you have completed your - 

MR. PUGH: Not my examination, only on that one -question. 

I thought you wanted to speak to that. 

THE COURT: She will come back. 

MR. PUGH: Thank you. See you in a little while. 

BY MR- PUGH: 

Q Now, if you would look at Plaintiffs', at Government's 

Exhibit 14. 

A. Yes. 

Q What's illustrated in that map? 

A it says United States Illustrative Apportioned District. 

Q Will you describe for the Court the boundaries of that 

illdStrative black majority' 6istrict map. 

THE COURT: What are we looking at, what exhibit? 

MR. PUGH: 14, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Illustrative -- 14 doesn't say such a title I 

don't think. 

MR. PUGH: . Excuse me, Your Honor, may I look back at the 

map? 

BY THE WITNESS: 

A It says--

THE COURT: Population Black Concentrations by Census 

Tract. You mean 7? 

BY THE WITNESS: 



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A At this point it says United States THE COURT: That's Exhibit 7. His 14 is different from 

the 14 that's in the bench book that I, have.. Apparently 14 

and 17 are reversed in my --

LAW CLERK MONACHINO: The 14 you just handed me has 

United States Illustrative Apportioned District. 

MR. PUGH: May I inquire, is that what you have given me 

earlier or is that something else? Let me get mine. May I 

approach the bench, Your Honor? 

(Counsel Pugh approaches the 

bench.) 

MR. PUGH: This is What .you.were kind enough to send me. 

MR. BERMAN: That's 14. 

MR. TUGH-: Have we .all got the ..same 14? .. 

THE COURT: Now, we all .have the. same exhibit. 

BY MR. PUGH: 

Q Would you be kind enough --• .you need this? 

A You have it. 

Q . I will. try to bring this back to you. .(Counsel Pugh 

hands document back to the witness, who. had given it to Mr. 

Pugh previously.) 

That's the same 14 you looked at just a minute ago, is it 

not? 

A I believe it is, yes. 

Q What's illustrated by that map? 



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A It says United States Illustrative Apportioned District. 

Q Would you describe for the Court the boundaries of this 

illustrative district. 

A Well, I am assuming there the dark blue lines -- and I 

guess we could begin by going from the northwest end of 

Orleans Parish south along -the Jefferson/Orleans boundary to 

apparently the River. It goes west from there along the 

River to Jefferson Parish boundary, has a southern boundary 

at that point then comes up around the Avondale area, goes on 

over toward Marrero and comes around following streets on the 

West Bank of Jefferson Parish over on apparently then picks 

up Algiers  and the rest of Orleans Parish. 

Q How man. sides does that district appear to have? 

MR. B;ERMAN: Your Honor, the exhibit is not offered as a 

proposed district, which would -- it is just offered as an 

illustrative example of the fact that if one person/one vote 

requirement is held for judicial elections that it is 

possible that a district, such a district could be 

constructed. Now, there are alterations, there are many, 

many different ways to draw a line and to construct a 

district. And this is obviously not one that we are 

suggesting anyone adopt, nor is this a requirement that we do 

so. It is merely one to show that within the confines of 

600,000 persons a district could be recreated in which black 

persons constituted a majority, and it is offered only for 



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that purpose. 

THE COURT: This is only Orleans Parish, correct? 

MR. BERMAN: It is a portion of Jefferson. According to 

the 1980 Census, Orleans has 550,000 persons. A district 

that would be required to meet the one person/one vote 

standard would have to have approximately 600,000 persons. 

The State has opted not to use one person/one vote in their 

judicial election districts; however, if they did do so, then 

it is possible to create such a district. 

THE COURT: So there would be one, you are saying that if 

you prevail, if you win, the plaintiff prevails in this suit, 

that this could be one of the Supreme Court districts? 
• 

MR. BERMAN: No, Your Honor,- we are not. What we are 

saying 

THE COURT: You are not saying that? 

MR. BERMAN: What we are saying is if you follow State 

policy as established throughout the entire rest of the 

State, the State has a policy of creating Supreme Court 

districts that do not cross parish lines. There are 5 of 

them, they each elect a single Judge. 'In Orleans that policy 

could be followed by creating an Orleans Parish district 

following parish lines with no need to cross any parish 

boundaries. That would be 557,000 persons. Similarly, the 

remainder of the First District, which would be Jefferson, 

Plaquemines and St. Bernard, would constitute a Second 



1147 

District. 

THE COURT: That would be complete.gerrymander.ing. 

MR. BERMAN: It would follow the State policy. 

THE COURT: I don't think there is any, I'don't follow 

that at all. I can understand, but we are not at that stage. 

But that's something we will get to later if you prevail. I 

understand the purpose of it. 

MR. PUGH: That was my next question, Your Honor: Was 

that gerrymandering? May I get those exhibits back now that 

the witness has? 

BY MR. PUGH: 

Q What methodology problems are there in estimating black 

and white .voter preferences in using diversity analysis and 

extreme case analysis? 

A What methodological problems? 

Q Yes, are there any? 

A T think there can be. It depends on the situation in 

which you are applying the methodology. 

Q All right, sir. Are there bettc - ways of learning about 

black and white preferences? 

Ways in which I have confidence? 

Q Yes. 

A Once again I mean if one has a large number of 

observations, if there is variation on the independent 

variable and considerable range, if the reg.ression lines have 



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a tight fit to the point -- I'm not sure there is a better 

method.. I'm not saying that .every application of regression 

is the best method, but I am saying given certain data 

conditions by variant regression probably would be the best 

method. 

Q Why is it we don't use white on white election? 

A Who is "we"? 

Q Sir? 

A Who is "we"? 

Q Well, why is it that you didn't use white on white 

elections, I will ask you that? 

A I always begin by looking at elections in which there are 

black and white candidates dompeting. And if I discover that 

in that context that if when black voters prefer black 

candidates they don't have an equal opportunity to elect 

those candidates. I would then not go on and look at white 

on white elections in an effort to cleanse the fact that 

there is a discriminatory result. If the ability to elect a 

candidate of your choice depends on the race of the 

candidate, then that ability is in no way an equal 

opportunity. 

Q Well, are you suggesting to this Court that the race of 

the candidate is the criteria? 

A Criteria for what? 

Q For a determination as to whether or not there is 



149 

dilution insofar as the vote is concerned? 

A I'm saying if there is evidence that when blacks prefer 

black candidates if they are unable to elect those candidates 

that's dilution regardless of whether they might be able to 

get on the winning side in white on white contests. 

Q Are you suggesting that if there is a series of examples 

of races and part of the series which show what you have 

reference to on the black on white races that you would 

totally ignore all the white on white races? 

A If I'm convinced that blacks could not elect candidates 

of their choice when the candidates of choice are black, that 

is sufficient for me to conclude that the system would be 

diluted. The fact that they can elect white candidates of 

their choice in no way cleanses the discrimination. 

Q Would there be discrimination if they can elect whites of 

their choice? 

A In white on black elections? 

Q White on white elections. 

A There could be, yes. 

Q And you didn't examine any of those instances here? 

A Well, election systems can have a chilling effect on 

candidacy, in other words, depending on the structure of the 

election system, black candidates may decide that they don't 

want to contest these particular offices or districts. So 

they don't offer themselves. Whites may choose -- black 



150 

voters may choose among whites who are candidates for office 

but that doesn't necessarily mean that those are necessarily 

the first choices they would have if they were offered black 

candidates. 

I don't want to belabor the point. If they are not 

offered black candidates and they.vote substantially all for 

A white candidate then that A white candidate is their 

candidate of choice in: that race, is it not? 

A Among the candidates offered, yes. 

Thank you. Can you tell me what the distinctions or 

factors you would draw as between a judicial race and, say, a 

race for legislative office; do you find any different 

factors between the 2? 

A Well, from what I have investigdted I have not. And in 

that sense- what I mean is that it doesn't matter whether it 

is a legislative office or judicial office. I find that in 

black and white when black and white candidates are both 

competing, black voters have a strong tendency to vote for 

black candidates and white voters have a strong tendency to 

vote for white candidates regardless of whether it is 

legislative or judicial office. 

Q Can you tell me if there are any things or factors that 

are peculiar to a judicial race which might not occur in a 

legislative race from a participation standpoint? 

A Something peculiar from a participation --



151 

Q Is there rolloff, falloff on a judicial --

THE COURT: What do you mean by "rollaff"? Would you 

define what you mean by the term rolloff or falloff. 

MR. PUGH: I would be glad to, Y.!,rr Honor. 

BY MR. PUGH: 

It is my appreciation, and correct me if I am wrong, sir, 

that not everybody that goes into a voting booth votes for 

every, for at least one candidate in each race or for that 

matter all the issues that may be presented on that one 

ballot. In that regard I believe the situation is in 

judicial races there are less people who vote on the judicial 

positions than would ordinarily vote on the other positions, 

and their failure to vote is called •rolloff or falloff. 

There are actually 3 phases and they are almost as I begin to 

learn used interchangeably. 

THE COURT: And for the record why don't we get a 

definition of it as long as we are on the theory of 

definitions, why don't we get a definition of dilution-of. 

voting strength. I think I know what it is, but I want to be 

sure that everybody is speaking about the same thing. 

BY MR. PUGH: 

Q If you will would you be kind enough to give the Court --

A Yes, a dilutable electible arrangement is one in which 

due to the way that electoral competition is structured the-

ability of a minority group to elect candidates of their 



152 

choice is either eliminated or seriously impaired again as a 

consequence of the structure in which the electoral 

competition occurs. 

BY THE COURT: 

Q Well, that isn't exactly the definition I would give but 

all right, go ahead. 

MR. PUGH: Thank you, Your Honor. 

BY THE WITNESS: 

A May I clarify the definition of rolloff and falloff? 

BY THE COURT: 

Q Fine, you can go on rolloff and falloff, but I think your 

definition of dilution needs further explanation, because I 

think I know what it is. But I was just hoping we can all be 

speakang in the same terms here. 

Well, I used falloff in my report,,and it is ia little 

different than the way Mr. Pugh described it. 

Q Why don't we for the record say how you used, what you 

meant by the term falloff. 

A When I referenced falloff in the report, it's the 

difference between people who sign in to vote on election day 

and then vote in any particular contest being examined on . 

that ballot that day. That's what I mean by falloff.. That's 

a little different than you considered falloff and rolloff 

equivalent. They are very similar. Rolloff I would agree is 

from the top of the ballot, generally the contest that draws 



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the largest participation down to an election that you are 

concerned with. 

Q But in either term what we are saying is that people vote 

but don't, are attracted to vote for some reason, but many 

people do not vote on all issues on the ballot. 

A That's correct. 

Q And there are certain issues on a ballot- in particular 

elections that are more popular than other issues and more 

people vote for certain issues than on other issues, correct? 

A Correct. 

Q If people are running for, say, President of the United 

States, you will find more people voting for the President of 

the United States than you will on for constitutional 

amendments? 

A Yes, you will. 

Q And you will often find when we have legislative - 

candidates you will find more people voting on the 

Legislature than on judicial candidates? 

A I am not sure about that. 

Q You are not sure about that? 

A I'm sure I'm not sure about it. I have not done these 

studies, and I have read studies --

Q Well, -you know people. Okay. 

A I have read studies that conclude that rolloff rates are 

no greater in judicial elections than other low salient 



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elections, whether they be State Legislatures, Board of 

Aldermen and City Council elections. There is substantial 

r'olloff in many cases. 

Q Well, have you been around here when many elections for, 

say, the Mayor is going at the same time you are electing a 

Judge? 

A There is rolloff there. 

Q Haven't you heard a lot of people say, well, who are the 

Judges? I don't know anything about them. I'm not going to 

vote for the Judge, I don't know anything about them. You 

haven't heard that? 

Sure. 

Q But you very seldom see them say, who is in the running 

for Mayor? 

You didn't ask me about Mayor. I thought you said --

Q - I'm talking about elections where there are other offices 

running besides judicial offices. 

A Well, if the President or Governor or Mayor is on the 

ballot, certainly. 

Q I wish there were more interesting judicial offices, but 

I think anyone who lives in •a community realizes that there 

is less interest in those generally speaking than in the 

other offices. Tfri 
a. surprised as a political scientist you 

don't realize that. You don't realize that? 

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studies. 

Q You are an expert. You are not sure about samething as 

important as that in the context of this case? 

A. I think experts, it is important when they are not 

sure --

Q An expert is not supposed to be biased, sir. Once I 

qualify you as an expert, I expect you to be candid. 

A Excuse me, sir. I said I have not done studies comparing 

them. 

Q You don't have to do studies to know that -- in your 

experience. 

A I have said I have read studies that conclude 

differently. 

-Q - Fiz., Okay. 

BY MR. PUGH: 

Q Can one use spending as a criteria of determining whether 

or not a candidate is viable? 

A As a criterion for whether or not --

Q One candidate spends 5 percent, and the other candidate 

spends 95 percent split 60/35 between 2 other candidates, is 

the 5 percent candidate a viable candidate? 

MS. REED: Objection unless Mr. Pugh defines viable. 

THE COURT: Well, if the witness_can understand what he 

means by it - 

BY THE COURT: 



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Q Can you understand what it meant by the question? 

A I believe I do, yes. 

Q Well, if you can understand it --

A And obviously candidates that spend very little money are 

not likely to be elected. So in that sense they are much 

less viable. 

BY MR. PUGH: 

Q Thank you, sir. 

Let' turn now to your Table 2, please. You have it 

there with you? 

A Okay. 

Q What page are you reading from for Table 2? 

A I don't believe the tables are numbered. 

Q All right, sir. 

A I'm at the beginning of Table 2. 

BY THE COURT: 

Q Does it star,, with the date of election 9/1 6/7 8? 

A They all start with that, the table titles of extreme 

case estimates? 

Q Extreme case estimates of race division in both the black 

candidates? 

A Right. 

BY MR. PUGH: 

Q You got the page the Judge has reference to? 

A Yes. 



1" I 

I would like to talk about the Wilson race. I believe 

that's the first .one there, is it not? 

A Yes, it is. 

Q Tell me what you intend the Court to find as a result of 

your table and as it relates to the Wilson race. 

A That Wilson in this table estimate based on homogeneous 

precincts analysis is that he received 30.1 percent of the 

vote cast by blacks and 2.4 percent of the vote cast by 

whites. 

If I would go down this list and ask you a similar 

question for each one that's what your percentage are 

intended to imply, right, or reflect? 

A Yes. 

Q Let's look for th6-- moment at the Young race, please, in 

1979, Juvenile Court "E". It appears to me that he got or 

she got as the case may -be 25 percent of the white vote and 

still lost, is that not a correct analysis? 

A Are you in the runoff? 

Q Yes, sir, I am now. 

A December 6, 1979? 

Q Yes, the general. 

A Yes, the estimate based on homogeneous precinct is 26.4 

percent of the white vote, and Mr. Young was defeated, yes. 

Q Tell me the factors that you considered in your analysis 

of the judicial elections in this case. 



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A Can you clarify the question? 

Q What factors did you use in making this report, the 

analysis of these cases? 

A In Table 2? 

Q Yes. 

 Table 2, Table 2 is based on what are called A 

homogeneous precincts. And these are precincts in which 90 

percent or more of the registered voters are either black or 

white except 

sign-in data 

for the 1988 

when we get into 1938 elections. At that point 

are available from the State of Louisiana. So 

elections these are the precincts that are over 

90 percent black or 90 percent white based on voters who 

signed in to vote that election day. And what these 

percentages reflect -are -the TercentagCs oT -v-o-tes for-the 

identified candidate cast in that group of black precincts, 

homogeneous black precincts, and that group of homogeneous 

white precincts. 

Q For the purposes of the record because it may have been a 

little air of confusion, you said '83 you could get the 

information from the State? 

A Correct. 

Q Prior to that could you not get the information from some 

of the parishes or do you know the answer to that? 

A From some of these parishes? 

Q Yes. 



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A You cannot get it from Orleans. 

Q All right. 

A there are, there is a point you can get it for some of --

well, Jefferson has it available for some elections but not 

in 1987. Jefferson does not have it available for all years. 

As for St. Bernard and St. Tammany prior to 19, St. Bernard 

and Plaquemines prior to 1988 I am not aware that you can get 

it. 

Q In connection with your analysis of any of these did you 

look at any of the financial data concerning the amount of 

money that was spent by the candidate? 

A No, I did not. 

Q Did you not request information from us, and we submitted 

it through your lawyer to you, or did you get that 

information? 

A The financial data? 

Q Yes. 

A No. What I got was a list of candidates identified by 

categories, not financial. 

Q Not any financial data? 

A No. 

MR. PUGH: I tender the witness, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Any questions? 

MR. BERMAN: No questions, Your Honor. 

REDIRECT EXAMINATION 



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BY MS. REED.: 

Q Dr. Engstrom, just so the record is clear, Plaintiffs' 

Exhibit 2 contains 2 maps at the back of it, is that right'? 

A Yes. 

Q And I believe in your report, that's Plaintiffs' Exhibit 

2, they are labeled Map A and Map B? 

A Yes. 

Q Why did you prepare Map A and Map B there in Plaintiffs' 

2? 

A They were prepared in response to .a statement in 

Professor Weber's draft report for the defendants that you 

could not draw a black majority single member district within 

the 4 parishes of the First Supreme Court Districts. And that 

was done in response to that assei-tion and also adopted as a 

standard in terms of compliance with one person/one vote. 

Dr. Weber expressed the standard which was within a 5 percent 

deviation plus or minus. 

Q Dr. Engstrom, in your view is it necessary to take 

rolloff or falloff into account in analysis of whether the 

racial block voting is occurring? 

A Well, it depends what you mean by take it into account. 

I think you have to base your estimates on people who cast 

votes in „hose elections. .So in that .senc, yes, it is not 

necessary that you estimate the amount of rolloff or falloff 

but that you exclude voters who rolloff or falloff from the 



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percentage calculations. 

Q Dr. Engstrom, hay.e you reviewed literature discussing the 

comparison between judicial elections and other elections 

such as legislative or similar elections? 

A Yes, I have. 

Q Have you come to any conclusion based on your review of 

the literature as to whether there is --

THE COURT: What literature are you referring to 

specifically? 

MS. REED: I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. 

THE COURT: What literature are you referring to 

specifically? An expert has the right to base his report on 

literature, but the trier of fact has •the right to know 

exactly what literature he bases that opinion on. So when 

you say "literature," I want you to specify what particular 

studies or treatises you are referring to. 

BY MS. REED: 

Q Could you provide to the Court the names, titles and 

authors, perhaps? 

THE. COURT: That contain information as to the questions 

you have just asked. 

BY MS. REED: 

Q Yes, that discussed this particular topic. 

A Primarily the work of Philip Dubois. 

BY THE COURT: 



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Q Spell that. 

A D-u-b-o-i-s. 

Q What year was that done, article published? 

A Well, first there is an article in the JOURNAL OF 

POLITICS. 

Q All right. 

A On participation in.judicial elections, it appears, I 

believe, in the year 1979, very close thereto. 

Q All right. 

A This is a study of participation in Supreme Court 

elections. Much of that same work also appears in his book. 

Q He discusses fallout in that book? 

A I don't. 

Q Well, that's what we are referring to. 

MS. REED: The title? 

BY THE COURT: • 

Q I said he discusses fallout in that study? 

MS. REED: Falloff. 

BY THE COURT: 

Q Falloff, he discusses it? 

A Yes, he does compare turnout level from 

Q And that it is based on what he says? 

A Well, I haven't finiahed. 

Q • All right. 

A Dubois also has a book published in 1980 called "From 

111••• 



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Ballot to Bench" I believe is the title published by the 

University of Texas Press contains a lot of that same data. 

Then he also has an article termed Trial Court Elections in 

Los Angeles County, I believe it is California, published in 

the JOURNAL OF LAW AND POLITICS or LAW AND POLICY REVIEW. 

BY THE COURT: Mark that spot 

on the transcript, please. 

(Court Reporter complies by 

marking notes.) 

BY THE WITNESS: 

A Or is it LAW AND POLITICS? . I forget if it is JOURNAL OF 

-- it is not the JOURNAL OF LAW AND POLITICS, it is LAW AND 

POLITICS QUARTERLY I believe is the title. It appeared,I 

would say approximately 1981 along with another article by 2 

'scholars from California, one from Southern California, one 

from Pomona College. Their names escape me right now. The 

articles are back to back, but essentially the conclusions of 

the Dubois work are that voters are drawn to elections by the 

more high salient contest -- President, Governor, Mayor, 

U. S. Senators, offices like that. And 'it is, indeed, the 

case that in judicial elections there is often especially in 

a non-partisan context a lot of rolloff, less so in a 

partisan context. And again it depends upon if voters are 

allowed to cast straight ticket votes on the machine or paper 

ballot. However it's done, there is less rolloff, but 



1614 

generally there is rolloff to the judicial context. 

BY THE COURT: 

Q Then you and I agree? 

A I wasn't in disagreement. I believe you were referring 

to other low salient elections. 

BY NS. REED: 

Dr. Engstrom, would you define low salient election? 

A Elections in which there is less public interest. 

Q According to your review of the literature that you have 

described, is there a difference between judicial elections 

and other elections of low salience variety? 

A The conclusion seems to be. there really isn't, that this 

is typical of other low salient elections and it's not unique 

to judicial elections, it happens in many, many low salience 

elections. 

Q Dr. Engstrom, you mentioned there might be a difference 

between non-partisan and partisan elections, didn't you? 

A Yes. 

Q To your knowledge are the ballots in Louisiana judicial 

elections is a voter aware of the party of the candite? 

A if the candidate is affiliated with a party, the party is 

listed on the ballot. 

Q Dr. Engstrom, you were asked earlier to defifte the 

concept of dilution, voter dilution. Could you explain to 

the Court what are the components you would consider in that 



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definition, what are the components in making up dilution? 

A Well, basdcally it refers to the way in which electoral 

competition is structured and the inability to convert votes 

into the selection of candidates of your choice. The basic 

components would be racial polarized voting and then the 

demographics of the racial composition of the particular unit 

that's going to elect a candidate. 

Q You have been asked also about financial data and 

campaign financing, have you not, do you recall that 

question? 

A I have been asked a question about it, yes. 

Q To your knowledge, have blacks in Orleans, black . 

candidates in Orleans, spent minimal amounts and still won 

elections? 

Well, I have not seen any indication of the amounts that 

they have spent. What I have seen is a classification that 

says whether they have spent the most among all the 

candidates or did not spend the most. 

Q Would you just so the record is clear what are you 

referring to when you say a classification, are you talking 

about a table that you have seen? 

A Yes, in Dr. Weber's report for the defendants there is a 

table that lists black candidates by whether they were the 

top spender or not and then whether they won or lost. And I 

have been provided the names of candidates that are in each 4 



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cells of that particular table. 

Q Did you come to any conclusion or can you draw any 

conclusion from that table and the names of candidates which 

were provided to you by Dr. Weber that fit within the cells? 

A Oh, yes. T examined them, and what the table shows is 

certainly that spending the most money is an advantage and 

makes you more likely to win but certainly is not a necessary 

condition. Black candidates have been the winning candidates 

in these elections in Orleans Parish without necessarily 

having spent the most; indeed, I believe the figures were 

of the winners spent the most; 5 of the winners had not. 

IS. REED: No further questions, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Any other questions? 

MR. BERMAN: No questions, Your Honor. 

BY THE CGURT: 

Q in consideration and making your report on these Judges' 

elections, did you consider in addition to race the question 

of whether one was a Republican or one was a Democrat or 

whether one was a known more or less conservative-type and 

one was a more or less liberal type, did you factor in those 

questions anywhere in your report? 

A No, sir. 

Thank you. I have no other questions. 

A Step down? . 

MR. BERMAN: No questions, Your Honor. 



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THE COURT: All right, is this witness excused? 

MR. PUGH: I have no further questions. 

BY THE COURT: 

Q Thank you very much. 

(Witness is excused.) 

MR. BERMAN: United States calls Dr. Bernard Grafman. 



168 

BERNARD GRAFMAN, 

called as an expert witness at the instance of the 

plaintiffs, after having been first duly sworn, was exam.i!ned 

and testified CIO follows: 

MR. RODNEY: Your Honor, before Counsel for the United 

States begins, may I be excused from the Courtroom for a few 

minutes? 

THE COURT: Sure. You want us to interrupt the 

proceeding?. 

IT,. RODNEY: No, Your Honor, I will not ask Doctor --

THE COURT: I will be happy to. 

MR. RODNEY: That will not be necessary. 

NR. Br.R.!:All: Dr..Grafman is an expert witness. His 

testimony is being presented by the United States. His 

report is identified as Government Exhibit 49 requesting Dr. 

Grafman be qualified as an expert in the field of political 

science with a special expertise in the political and 

statistical fields of political and statistical 

methodologies. 

THE COURT: Any objection to m7 receiving his testimony 

as such? 

MR. PUGT-i: No, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: All right, I will-receive Dr. Bernard 

Grafman's testimony as an expert in political science and 

permit him to give opinion testimony in the field just 



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described. 

BY THE COURT: 

presume, Dr. Grafman, if you were called upon to 

testify in this matter, your testimony would be as set forth 

in the document labeled Exhibit 49, which is your report? 

Yes, sir, Your Honor. 

It's dated March 25, 1959, 

A. Yes, sir, that's correct. 

MR. P7J11: Are you ready, Your Honor? 

THE COURT:. Yes. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION 

BY MR. PUGH: 

Good evening, Doctor. Let me ask you if I may first, you 

kind of analyzed the analy sts in this, did you not? 

A Yes, that's correct. 

You did not go back and try to reach the source and 

develop data which others had already done or were doing in 

this connection? 

pi That's correct. 

So you worked on the validity of what each one of them 

had already done? 

,d • , orrecu. 

Q . Doe-s the first test under Thornberg calling i a 

sufficiently large and compact single member district where a 

minority voter majority constitutes a threshold test in voter 



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relation cases --

MR-. BERMAN: Objection, Your Honor, that's not the 

standard as enunciated in Thornberg. If you would state it 

properly as to what the standard is - 

THE COURT: Rephrase your question and take out, just 

refer to that standard and don't refer to any particular 

case. 

BY MR. TUGH: 

Q If I may get at this this way: What do you understand 

the threshold question to be. in connection with voter 

dilution matters that you have been called upon to testify as 

an expert today? . 

A I understand the threshold question in issues involving 

exactly 2 political grOdps -, biEi-ok -and cont'ext 

of a multi-member district or an at-large election system to 

be that a .sufficient test for vote dilution is set forth in 

Thornberg as containing 3 parts, those parts having to do 

first with a population majority in a single member district 

which is majority/minority; secondly having to .do with 

whether or not voting is racially polarized; and thirdly 

having to do. with whether minority candidates regularly lose. 

Q And that 3-fold question must be resolved, T take it, 

before one can reach a conclusion concerning dilution? . 

A It is sufficient to answer those 3 questions in order to 

reach a decision about dilution, •yes. 



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BY THE COURT: 

Q Those questions when you say sufficient must be answered 

in the 'affirmative, I take it? 

A Yes, Your Honor, that's correct, of course. 

BY ER. PUGH: 

-c) Tell me why is that apparently even though one of the 

experts used white on white elections as well as white on 

black elections, and another expert just used white on black 

elections, why wouldn't you believe that white on white 

elections would be relevant? 

A Well, there are 3 reasons: First and most obviously in 

Thornberg itself the only elections that are analyzed are 

black versus white contests. Secondly, if one were to find 

that blacks often succeeded in electing white candidates whom 

preferred but rarely every succeeded or regularly .di ci not 

succeed in electing the black candidates of their choice, 

that would be not sufficient to overturn a clear finding that 

blacks were unable to elect a candidate of choice when that 

candfdate was himself or herself black. - 

And thirdly and most obviously the third component of the 

Thornberg test has to do with the ability of minority 

candidates to be elected and in order to determine whether or 

not a minority candidate is elected one necessarily must 

confine one's self to those elections in which a minority 

candidate is to be found, namely, elections involving most 



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black and white candidates. 

Q So, sir, in that regard then you have limited your 

comments to the factual situation presented in the Thornberg -

case, that is, I believe that there happens to be black on 

white elections are the ones that were under consideration in 

that case and that there were no white on white elect-tons? 

A No, that's not at all correct. The factual situation was 

that there were a plethora of white versus white contests 

available for analysis in North Carolina but that I, and 

indeed, all expert witnesses within that case focused 

attention exclusively on the black versus white contests. 

Q So that it went to the Court and for fear of being 

repetitious it went to the Court on a 'factual situation that 

you and the other experts had deterfnined was appropriate, 

that is, that it should be just black versus white elections? 

A Yes that,is.correct, in Thornberg and to the 

best of my knowledge in all previous voting rights cases for 

expert witnesses testifying for the prevailing side. 

Q Are you satisfied as an expert that there cannot be 1 c-

determination made by white on white elections as to whether 

or not there is dilution? 

A To restate my exact statement: I'm satisfied that if 

there is a finding that voting is racially polarized and that 

minority voting strength is diluted on the basis of analysis 

of black versus white contests, no information derived from 



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white versus white contests could change that conclusion. 

So that if you had a )00 white on white cases and 2 white 

on black cases or black on white cases then you would throw 

out the 100 white on white cases and rely on the 2 black on 

white or white on black? 

A Given what the standard is as I understand it to be as 

enunciated by the Federal Court and subject to minor 

correction that I would modify . 2 to 3, I would prefer 

to have at least 3 elections involving black versus white 

contests to look at, yes. 

And if you were able to establish again using the figure 

of 100 and now raising it from 2 to 3, if you were able to 

establish on the white on white elections that the blacks 

could get their preferred candidates a substantial number, 

let's say two-thirds of the time you would still throw all 

those out and you would deal just with a black on white or 

white on black, whatever? 

A Yes, for the reasons that I previously stated. 

Q Would you agree that the race of the candidate has no 

bearing on these issues? 

A Certainly not. 

Q So we look to the voter himself and what or herself for 

determination of what that voter consideration to be their 

candidate of choice irrespective of whether or not the 

candidate is black or white? 



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A Using the term candidate of choice, which has not 

previously been defined, as simply synonymous with the 

candidate whom someone votes for certainly a voter can vote 

for any candidate he or she chooses to vote for and it would 

be reasonable to refer to that candidate as the candidate as 

that voter's candidate's choice. Similarly, if there is a 

candidate who receives group support that would be reasonable 

to call in political scientists' terminology that candidate, 

the group's candidate of support -- I'm sorry? 

Q Of choice? 

A Candidate of choice. 

Q So the group itself could have a candidate of choice? 

A Yes, that's correct, using those .terms in political 

science language not purporting to provide legal definitions. 

But you say or I believe I understood you to indicate 

that there had not heretofore been a definition for a 

candidate of choice, did I misunderstand you? 

A I did not hear one presented in this trial. Perhaps I'm 

wrong. 

Well, let me ask you a simple question: I go into a 

voting booth and I look at the list of candidates and there 

are 3 candidates for a.particular race. And I decide I am 

going to vote for the first of those 3 candidates. Is that 

candidate my candidate of choice, or are the other 2? 

A Candidate whom you voted for certainly reasonable to 



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claim to your candidate of choice. 

That's all I have. Thank you very much. 

REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. BERMAN: 

Dr. Grafman, just to ask you very briefly for your 

dcfinition of vote dilution as the Court asked for Dr. 

Engstrom' s. 

A My definition of vote dilution in the context of this 

case will be that it is sufficient to establish the 3 

Thornberg factors as I have previously stated them and that 

vote dilution consists in the submerging or minimizing of the 

voting strength of the cognizable political or racial group. 

. . 
Mr. Pugh was asking you questions about the choice 

minority voters in white on white elections. 

A 0 

In your view what relevance does that have in a 

determination as to a candidate of choice for the minority 

community? 

A Using the term simply the way I had been defining it, a 

candidate of choice is a candidate who receives a group 

support regardless of race of that candidate. That, however, 

is irrelevant to the Thornberg questions in particular 

whether or not minority candidates, that is to say, 

candidates who are themselves in context black, are elected 

of the endirl:-,tpcz who themselves are also candidates of 



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choice of th ,,, minority community. 

Q Why is that important? 

A It •is important because it would be a mockery of the idea 

of equality of voting rights for a group to be said to have 

an equal opportunity to elect candidates of choice if this 

equal, .supposedly equal, opportunity were to be confined only 

to candidates who happen to be white. 

Would it in your view be relevant to compare the 

opportunity, excuse me, to compare the success of the white 

voters in electing candidates of choice to that of black 

voters? 

A It would be relevant to compare the opportunity of white 

voters to that of black voters in electing candidates of 

choice in -black/whit.. contests. Certainly that would be the 

most important question, the relative ability of the blacks 

and whites to elect candidates of choice in contests . 

involving both black and white candidates. 

Dr. Grafman, in doing your analysis and preparing your 

report, did you have the opportunity to review Dr. Weber's 

analysis of the white/white contests? 

Yes, I did. 

Q And did you come to any conclusions based on that review 

of those elections? 

A Yes, if you will give me just a moment, please. 

THE COURT:  Well, let's be careful here. I don't think 



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one witness should determine upon, really, the credibility of 

another witness, But T do think that one witness can point 

out how he differs in methodology of another witness and Why 

he believes his methodology is correct and the other is 

wrong, and T think you should confine your questions to that 

respect. I presume that's what you were doing? 

MR. BERF1AN: Well, that's correct, Your Honor-. And in 

that regard one of the points in looking at the 

methodology --

THE COURT: You can have him say why he disagrees with 

the methodology. I don't want one witness commenting on the 

credibility of another witness. You reference it by sayLng 

referring to this methodology and say why I think th ,, 

methodology is correct and the other methodology is 

incorrect. ut that's the proper way.. One witness should no 

comment upon another witness' testimony. 

BY fiR. BERMAN: 

Q Dr. Grafman, in your rev.iew of the methodology presented 

by Dr. Weber in white/white races, would your conclusion 

change as to the relative ability of black citizens in the 

First Supreme Court District to elect to participate equally 

in the political process and elect candidates of choice? 

A I'm sorry, based on my review of that has, based on my 

review of that there has been no -change in the conclusion 

that I have previously -,,aL,ed as to the existence of 



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polarization and the other conclusions stated in my report. 

In reaching that conclusion, is it possible for you to 

state an opinion as to the relative ability of white voters 

to elect a candidate of choice? 

A LT,11 in the 22 outcome determinative elections that are 

identified in the stipulation of facts and are presented on 

the chart now before the Court, in 6 of those where whites 

and blacks differed as to the candidate whom they preferred, 

whites were successful in 16 f the 22 election contests, 

outcome determinative outcome election. Blacks were 

successful in electing a candidate of choice that was a 

candidate receiving a majority or plurality of the black vote 

in only 6. 

(Counsel confers with co-Counsel., Dr. Grafman, in 

looking at the regression analysis of the white/white races 

is it your opinion that in those instances there is an 

agreement or no disagreement between white and black voters 

as to the candidates that they prefer? 

A There are: a substantial number of election contests in 

which white and black voters are voting for the same 

candidate. To the extent that .one can glean anything useful 

from these white/white contests, candidates involving 

exclusively white candidates, it is preferable to focus on 

those instances where the white community is supporting one 

white candidate, and the black community is supporting a 



179 

different white candidate. Since to say that blacks have 

equal opportunity to elect candidates of choice as long as 

they 1Tappen to be candidates of choice of the white community 

is somewhat silly; therefore, looking only at the outcome 

determinative elections involving white candidates only where 

whites and blacks differ as to their candidate of choice, we 

find that even if we confine Ourselves to the white versus 

white contests that in 11 of these contests identified in Dr. 

Weber's exhibit and in the stipulations that in 7 of these 

the candidate of choice of the white community prevailed; 

that is, the white candidate preferred by white voters and in 

only 4 of these did the candidate the white candidate 

preferred by the majority or plurality of the. black voters 

succeed in gaining elect-ion. 

And what effect would that have upon your previously 

stated opinion regarding the voting patterns in the First 

Supreme Court District? 

A As I previously indicated, no information derived from 

white versus white contests would affect a determination 

based on black versus white contests as to vote dilution; 

however, the evidence from the outcome determinative 

elections where the white community and the black community 

have differed in their white candidate of choice further 

reinforces the point that when whites and blacks differ, 

whites disproportionately win, and blacks disproportionately 



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lose. 

You used a phrase "outcome determinative election." What 

is your understanding of that term? 

A My understanding. of the term outcome determinative is as 

specified in the stipulations, to wit, an outcome 

determinative is an election contest in which an individual 

actually elected to office is chosen. 

MR. BER1'!AN: No further questions, Your Honor. 

THE COURT:. icny recross? 

MR. PUGH: I do have one question. It will lead to a 

couple, : a'e -ume, as is always the case. But if I may --

RE CROSS EXAMINATION 

BY MR. PUGH 

You used a phrase in responding to Counsel: "Equality of 

voting right." I will repeat, equality of voting rights. 

Yes. 

If there is a pool of 300,000 voters and that pool has 

the right to elect an individual and then if there is a pool 

of 600,000 people and the voters in that pool have the right 

to elect an individual and the 2 then elected individuals 

serve on the same body casting decisions with similar import, 

count if you will, equality of voting rights between 4'sc, 

necessary 300,000 pool and those 600-,000 pool, is there 

equality? 

A There is equality of voting rights between gr,Dups insofar 



131 

as an election system is structured. It provides those 

groups with an equal opportunity to elect candidates of 

choice. Necessarily a group which is larger will win 

elections if unified against a group which is smaller, but 

the first element of the .Thornberg test is whether or not 

there exists within a multi-member district a group 

sufficiently large and sufficiently concentrated so that it 

, could be given a single member, dis trict  which it would be 

able to even despite polarized voting patterns elect 

candidates of choice. And it is in that sense and only in 

this sense in the context of Thornbercz in which it is 

sensible to talk about equality of voting rights or if you 

will equality of opportunity. 

Q As an expert in this fi eld, are you telling me that it is 

not sensible to talk about equality of voting rights which is 

what this is all about as I understand it if a party elected 

by a group consisting of 300,000 has the same rights after 

.election as a party who has been elected by a group 

consisting of 600,000, isn't the net result that with both of 

them having the same rights that the first group has twice 

the representation of the second group? 

MR. ITREAN: Note my objection. I think it is the same 

question Ile just asked. 

answered by the witness. 

THE COURT: I'm not certain that it is, but if it is T 

T think it has been asked and 



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will sift it out. So go ahead and answer the question. 

BY MR. PUGH: 

Q It is the same question that was asked, Your Honor, 

except that the answer went off into an area that wasn't 

responsive to the question I asked, or I believe it did. 

A If that is the question, I apologize to Mr. Pugh. 

Q Not at all, sir. 

A I intend to answer the question in the context of this. 

particular case, and I assuMe that was the area to which the 

question was directed. Reading. the question or listening to 

the question literally, that is to say, a group of 300,000 

elects a single candidate, and a group of 600,000 elects a 

single candidate, obviously we are in some different type- of 

electoral system than that— wh-ich rs- now befdre -Usi -presUnialbly 

some system pre-Baker v. Carr because in this case you have 

described an election system in which we have very different 

apportionment. So this might be either a pre -Baker v. Carr  

or some other election method not subject to the Baker v.  

Carr test. 

BY THE COURT: 

Q But you still laven't answered the question. I think you 

have explained --

With respect to -- I'm not sure, Your Honor, that I can. 

If Mr. Pugh can please rephrase it, I am simply having 

difficulty understanding what it is that he is asking me. 



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Q Okay. 

BY MR. PUGH: 

Q Let's put it in simpler numbers. Let's talk about 

instead of ---100,000 and then let's talk about 6 instead of 

600,000. Let's merely say that a group half the size of 

another group and of the 2 groups the half size and the full 

size if you will each has the right to elect one individual. 

A Yes. 

Q For a total of 2 individuals. 

A Yes. 

Q Whom upon election have the same powers, duties and 

rights of each other, isn't it a fact that the people, the 

300,000 people are getting twice as much representation as 

the 600,000 people? 

A If these are 2 districts which are unequally apportioned, 

then, indeed, the group which is in the smaller district but 

is nonethelTE. entitled to the same is given the same 

representation as the group in a district twice its size is, 

in fact; in effect, getting twice the representation for its 

numbers than is the larger group, yes. 

Q Thank you very much, Doctor. 

BY THE COURT: 

Q I hope you don't charge for that answer, because I could 

have given that one out myself.I'm being facetious. 

MR. BERMAN: No further questions, Your Honor. 



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THE COURT: All right, thank you very much. 

(Witness is excused.) 

THE COURT: Call your next witness. 

MS. REED: May I have a moment, Your Honor? You have 

heard the presentation of all of the plaintiffs' witnesses. 

And before we rest there is one interrogatory and the 

defendants' answer that we would like to read into the record 

if we may. I am reading from Interrogatory No. 3 of the 

United States' First Set of Interrogatories which were served 

the 27th of September, 1988. Interrogatory No. 3 reads as 

follows: (Counsel Reed reading) "Identify each State 

interest served by the inclusion 9f a multi-Judge election 

district in the electoral scheme for electing members of the 

Supreme Court." Answer to Interrogatd-ry No. 3 provided by 

the State is as follows: "Continuity, stability 

and custom. This electoral scheme was created 109 years ago 

and has successful served the State's purposes from then 

until now and has been included in each of the State's 

Constitutions as adopted by the electorate both black and 

white thereafter." End of answer to interrogatory. 

At this point, Your Honor, plaintiffs Chisom, et al 

would rest their case-in-chief. 

MR. BERMAN: At this time the United States rests at this 

point. 

MR. PUGH: May it please the Court, Your Honor, 



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defendants have 2 witnesses they choose to put on. The 

witnesses are both experts. Their reports have been 

submitted to all parties and the Court ., and the 2 experts 

THE COURT:. Which -would you like to come first? 

MR. PUGH: Dr. Miller if I may, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: All right. 

0•111, 



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'RALPH MILLER, 

called as an expert witness at the instance of the 

defendants, after having been first duly sworn, was examined 

and testified as follows: 

BY DEPUTY NELSON: 

Please be seated and state your name for the record. 

A Ralph Miller. 

MR. PUGH:. May it please the Court, under the standards 

of the pre-trial order this witness is tendered as an expert 

for cross-examination at this time. 

THE COURT: is Dr. Miller's report, which is it? 

MR. PUGH: What is his report? 

THE-COURT: Yes. - 

MR. PUGH: Just one second, Your Honor. 

BY MR. PUGH: 

Dr. Miller, do you have a.copy of your report there? 

P. 

Yes, sir. 

licaad the title for the benefit of the Court. 

Analysis of Dilution of Voter Registration. 

MR. PUGH: Exhibit 1, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: I have it. 

MR. PUGH: The bench book is Exhibit 1. 

THE COURT: Let's see if w.e -- is Dr. Miller's curriculum 

vitae included? 

BY THE WITNESS: 



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A It should be. 

MR. PUGH: It should be under professional profile which 

follows immediately after. 

THE COURT: All ri7ht. 

BY MR. PUGH: 

May T ask the witness, do you have an updated profile? 

No, sir. 

BY THE COURT: 

is your educational profile as set out in the 

professional profile attached'to Defendants' Exhibit 1? 

A Yes, sir. 

THE COURT: And you are tendering Dr. Miller in what 

capacity? 

1,:R. PUGH: As an expert, Your Honor, in the fields of 

marketing, experimental statistics. 

BY THE COURT: 

What is your basic field? 

A Market research and also political consultant. 

THE COURT: All right, I will qualify -- is there any 

question on his voir dire? 

Clito No, Your Honor, we don't. 

THE COURT: All right, I will qualify Dr. Miller as an 

-ex-pert in the field of marketing and political consultation. 

BY THE WITNESS: 

A Yes, sir. 



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THE COURT: And permit him to give expert testimony of 

the matters set out in his report. 

PUGH: Thank you, Your Honor. May we now tender him 

for cross-examination? 

BY THE COURT: 

Dr. iiller, if you were called upon to testify on direct 

examination, would your testimony be as set forth in 

Defendants' Exhibit No. 1, which is entitled Analysis of 

Voter Dilution in Judicial Elections? 

r 

Yes, sir. 

THE COURT: I don't know if it is dated either, all 

MS. REED: Your Honor, the United States wi:1 1 cross-

examine Dr. Miller first. But before we do this, plaintiffs 

would like to move that certain portions of Dr.. Miller' 

report, which is Defendants' Exhibit -- I'm not sure-. 

THE COURT: Exhibit 1. 

Rn.2,1): Defendant 1 be stricken from the record. As 

you recall, all parties reserved that right in the pre-trial 

order. I have the portions I would like to read them as you 

look starting on page 4 the last entire, last paragraph of 

that page beginning with the words "The results of falloff" 

including the last words Williams might have won:" - The 

grounds for all the objections will be the same, so perhaps 

it is easier if I'read 



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THE COURT: Let me read it. 

MS. REED: Moving to strike a portion of this testimony 

on the grounds of relevancy, Your Honor. Each of the 

sections that I will be addressing talks about areas of. this 

State are not within the 4 parishes. This lawsuit 

involves the First Supreme Court Distric t. 

THE COURT: Well, this would be relative in the context 

of the overall nature of his report and what he is trying to 

demonstrate. So. what weight and effect I will give to it is 

a different matter, but I certainly think it is relevant in 

connection with his report. 

MS. REED: Well, Your Honor,. but is it relevant to our 

claim? It is not relevant to any of the issues raised in 

this lawsuit. 

THE COURT: I will take a look at it, but I would think 

it is relevant in the context of his report if I use it just 

for an explanation of his voter falloff. Now, whether T give 

it any effect in the context of this nslcc, is another matter. 

ES. REED: May I then jusL, for the record to have the 

sections --

7H7 COURT: That's my feeling about the first one. 

What's the next one? 

REED: Page 5 in the section headed Cohesion. We 

would move to strike that the portion of that paragraph, 

believe•it is the fourth sentence beginning with "For 



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example, Ms. Sylvia Cooks" and going on. 
• 

THE CURT: But again he is explaining what he means by 

the term cohesion. He is giving an example. So he didn't 

give an example in Orleans Parish, but he is defining the 

term cohesion, I think. --I-tat I partially agree with .you and 

partially disagree .with you. Tillpt weight and effect --

certainly am not going to give it much effect as to what the 

voters in Orleans Parish would have done in a particular 

election. T certainly can look at it insofar as regards his 

explanation of the term cohesion. 

MS. REED: V.n.c Your Honor. On page 5 we would move to 

strike the parasraph, T believe it's the second from the end 

of the page beginning with "From my review of pr. Wr=bPr's 

report." That statement he concludes there is no clear 

statewide pattern. We would urge the Court to rule- this 

should be stricken from the record because it is not 

relevant. Whether it is a statewide pattern of racial block 

voting is not relevant to a determination of whether there is 

racial block voting within the First District. 

THE COURT: I will agree with you to that extent, but it 

may be relevant to show there is not a pattern of 

discrimination or th ,i-n-e is some problem with blacks being 

able to express themselves. To that extent it may be 

relevant. 

S. REED: Certainly the statewide pattern :s simply not 



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relevant to this case. Again, I'm sorry, as to make the 

record clear. 

THE eOURT: I think they are trying to show there is a 

statewide pattern of discrimination against blacks that's 

continuing, and to that extent it may have some, not much, 

but some relevance. 

MS. REED: Similarly we would move to strike the 

paragraph that begins on page 6 an,, carries over to the top 

of page 7 which begins: (Counsel reading) "I also 

participated in" and there he discusses, Dr. Miller discusses 

the 19th Judicial District -- not relevant to this case. 

THE COURT: Relevant, only to the extent that it may show 

State action is neutral. It has minimal value one way or the 

other,.I agree with you. 

MS. REED: And finally we would also move to strike page 

9 that begins with that portion of page 9 headed with the 

letter "I" and entitled 

differences in judicial 
elections." We would move to strike page 9 through 17, which 

"An Alternative Explanation for voter 

is the conclusion of Dr. Miller's report. That entire. 

section of the report discusses elections in East Baton Rouge 

Parish. Again we would move the Court to enter an order 

striking those on the ground those pages, that entire section 

of the report on the ground time-t it is not relevant to any of 

the issues raised in this lawsuit. 

THE COURT: Well, he says the relevance of this analysis 



19 7 

f these Supreme Court elections are the same type of 

judicial elections as being challenged. They involve an 

electorate similar to that of New Orleans. I think it has 

some possible evidentiary value but how much weight and 

effect I will give to it I will determine at a later date. 

At this time I will let it in for that limited purpose. 

Ms. REED: Thank you. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION 

BY MR. BERIAN: 

Q Dr. Miller, I would like to turn your attention to your 

report, page 3, the section entitled Orleans Parish Polarized 

Not Diluted. 

A Yes, sir. 

Have you t. conformed the numbers that appear in this 

section of your report to the uncontested facts that the 

parties have _ agreed to? 

V 
M, 
;A, I made no effort to change, to modify this report in 

accordance with those facts. 

MR. BERMAN: No further questions, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: All right, thank you very much. 

MS. REED: May we have a few questions? 

THE COURT: I'm sorry. 

(Counsel Reed confers with co-

Counsel.) 

MR. PUGH: For the purposes of the record, while they are 



19 

deciding what they want to do T think the record should 

reflect that these reports were exchanged at a time prior to 

the time we finished all the stipulations. We finished those 

up at 1 'o'clock on rater morning, and it was an obligation 

for the reports to be sent to all of the parties prior to 

that time. And that reason if there was any need to make 

any adjustments in it and that we came a little late because 

the reports came first, and I wanted to put that on the 

record. 

HR. BERMAN: I would like the record te reflect that we 

received Dr. Miller's report at 2:01 the morning after 

Easter, on the 27th of March. 

THE COURT: Well, I don't think any harm is done. If we 

had a jury, we might have. more- of a problem, but we really 

don't have any problem. 

MR. PUGH: Thank you, Your Honor. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION 

BY MS. =IL: 

Q Dr. Miller, I have just a few questions about your 

report. In your report, Dr. Miller, on page 14 - - actual? 

begins on the bottom of page 3, you refer to an election in 

which a black candidate received 22.5 percent of the vote 

cast by registered voters. Are you talking about 7= runoff 

election for 1930. Is that the Hughes election that you are 

talking about? 



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A Yes, ma'am. 

In the Hughes election didn't Yvonne Hughes receive 

percent of the black vote according to the stipulation, I 

believe it is Stipulation 78 that the returns there show that 

she had received "5 percent of the black vote, is that 

correct? 

A• I'm not sure. I don't have the stipulation in front of 

me. 

I'm certain that it is Stipulation 78, page 6 of your 

report then. In paragraph, let's zee the full paragraph, the 

second full paragraph on that page. 

A The example of --

You are. talking the paragraph that begins with "Whil ,-

26.1 percent of the black reistered —Voters," the s-eCond 

sentence of that paragraph, you are referring to primarily, 

•for example, Congressmen and you say the Republican 

candidate, Livingston, received an overwhelming portion of 

the vote, nearly 50,000 votes compared to the 2 Democratic 

challengers who received 9,179 votes and 4,320 votes 

respectively, is that correct? 

A Yes, ma'am. 

That race was for congressional seat in Jefferson Parish, 

is that correct? 

A Yes, ma'am. 

Q That would be District 1, wouldn't it? 



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A 
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Q Does District 1 encompass all of Jefferson Parish? 

THE COURT: I can tell you it doesn't. 

BY THE WITNESS: 

A No. it's encompasses parts of St. Tammany and I think 

part Uf St. Bernard. I'm not certain but I think it 

covers •••• 

BY MS. IFFTL: 

Q And in that same paragraph you refer to the Melvin 

Zeno/Cusimano race. And that race was also in Jefferson 

Parish for District 24, Division "L", that was a judicial 

race, wasn't it? 
• 

A Yes, ma'am. 

0 That race was parishwide, wasn't it? 

A Yes. 

Q So what you have done in that parish is compare a.race 

that took place in District 1 that is part of Jefferson 

Parish with a race that took place parishwide in Jefferson, 

is that correct? 

A Yes, ma'am. 

So then from your analysis of the congressional race in 

District 1 you concluded that the Republican received 

considerably more votes than both of the Democrats combined, 

correct? 

A I'm sorry? 



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Q In District 1? 

A What I concluded is that the operating factor at that 

time was the partisan political behavior rather than the 

racial considerations. 

Q So then what *you are doing there is comparing political 

parties and behavior in District 1 and suggesting that it h-a-s 

some correlation to perhaps political parties and behavior in 

the other parishes? 

A No, ma'am. I believe what I was trying to talk about was 

behavior of those races in Jefferson Parish, the part of the 

District 1 that's in Jefferson Parish and Jefferson Parish in 

terms of the District Court race. 

Q Yet, then•y u compare it to the amount of votes that Zeno 

received in the entire parish? 

A Right. 

Q You don't include, for instance, Billy Tauzin, who I 

believe ran as Democrat from Jefferson Parish in that 

congressional race that year not in District 1 but in . 

Jefferson Parish, are you aware of that? 

A Yes, but no, I don't. 

* He is not included? 

A No. . 

BY THE COURT: 

Q You have me confused now. What are you trying to 

demonstrate in this paragraph that Ms. Iffil is referring to? 



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A That T felt that the issue of party partisanship behavior 

of registered --

Now, when you say Republican Livingston received 47, you 

mean he received 47,307 i/otes in Jefferson Parish? 

You are not saying parishwide when he received that, and 

you are comparing it, and of course, Mustacos (phon.) and 

Honig they were also in the parish, eand then you are 

comparing Zeno's parishwide vote? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q So it is all parishwide vote, all your figures are 

parishwide vote? 

A No, sir, not the portion of Jefferson Parish that's not 

in the First Congressional District. 

Q Are you comparing the same voting area for Zeno as you 

are comparing for Livingston? That's what I'm trying to 

ascertain. 

11 N o . 

Then what do your figures represent if you don't compare 

the same voting area? 

They represent the portion of the First Congressional 

District that's in Jefferson Parish. 

But if you are using a larger source of votes for one, 

then for the other the figures don't mean much, do. they? 

8 My intent here was to talk about some other 



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characteristics that might be examined in looking at how the 

voters behave, and here I felt it was since there was --

Q A neophyte looking would understand that unless Ms. Iffil 

had brought that out. 

A I'm sorry it wasn't clear. 

All right. 

BY MS. =IL: 

. Mr. Miller, if T can direct you to the bottom of page 7 

and on the top of page 8.of your report, and I believe in 

this s'ection you' ye enumerated the very factors that you 

think impact on voters in judicial elections, is that 

correct? 

Yes 

Q And that second factor is that there is a generally 

accepted career ladder that qualifies incumbent Judges for 

advancement? 

A Yes. 

And that the third point deals with the expectation that 

a candidate for judicial office has certain personal 

qualifications or directly related experience for the office, 

is that correct? 

Yes, ma'am. 

.What about the Zeno/Cusimano race, the one we just spoke 

about which VIC:1J the race in which Melvin Zeno, who was an 

Assistant District Attorney, ran against Cusimano. ‘.usimano 



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was a legislator, he? 

THE COURT: But you know what? No one brought this out, 

but I can take judicial notice of it. I live in the 

district; Cusimano was a well known name in that area, well 

known legislator, and everybody had heard of Cusimano. So 

that's not going to play. 

S. IFFIL: The point is, Your Honor, that he may have 

been well known as a legislator but not - 

THE COURT: But I can assure that that makes a great 

difference in that type of election. Cusimano was a well-

known popular name in that area. So that's 

IFFIL: I grant that he was well known. However --

THE COURT: No one had ever heard of Zeno.. T think if 

you took a, if you had a name recognition poll in the area, 

think you would find out that Cusimano was much more well 

known by the voters in that area than Zeno was. 

S. IFFIL: !Ir. Zeno testified this morning, however, 

that in a qualifications poll in which neither the race nor 

the name of the candidate was mentioned Mr. Zeno won. Now, 

the specific point 

THE COURT: He may say that but 

1,1S. IFFIL: The specific third point he refers to 

pecffically relates to experience. 

THE COURT: I'm not giving much weight and effect to that 

type of testimony. 



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TFFTL: will move on. 

THE COURT: You will have to have an expert on that. 

That to me is a self-serving statement by him to that effect 

to have that much weight. 

113.*IFFIL: Let's move on to Point 5 in that list. 

BY IFFTL: 

The credibility of the title of Judge virtually assures 

re-election in Louisiana. So it is your belief then that an 

incumbent has a better chance to be elected than someone who 

has not previously served as a Judge? 

1 ma'am. 

Did you hear the testimony this morning of Judge ,r)rtiguc? 

A No. 

You did no? 

A 71 

Are you familiar with the 1979 race of Judge Ortigue? . 

A Not specifically. 

In 1979 Judge Ortigue ran for Civil District Court "H", 

and I believe it has been stipulated the fact that he 

received 99 percent of the black vote and only 1'1 percent o 

the white vote. And Judge Ortigue was an incumbent. 

THE COURT: Let me tell you this: You are not convincing 

me that 

• iFFTL: May I go on? 

THE COURT: No, let 1.2e explain something to you because I 



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am the one that's judging this And so let 's you 

can't convince me that an incumbent doesn't have an 

advantage?' That is a well-known fact. When you try to say 

that that's not a determining factor, but when you try to 

convince the Court that a person running with the title Judge. 

have some edge, you take away the credibility from 

the rest of the argument you make. in fact, it's considered 

in this State such an important factor that a person ran as 

Judge that we did away with the system of letting the 

Governor appoint somebody for a Judge for an unepired term 

and then letting him run as an incumbent. All people in 

politics realize that that's an important 

MQ . 

L. 4- lacuor. 

TFFIL: And I thoroughly agree with that. The point 

I'm trying to elicit, Your Honor, is that --

THE COURT: That is not the sole determining factor but 

it is all -- all he said is it is a factor. Don't detract 

from the argument that you are making. 

HS. TFTFTL: I will move on. 

BY MS. IFFIL: 

Point 0 in your enumerated list: "Once both black f--, nd 

white voters respond to incumbent •Judges in a race neutral 

manner for re-election or advancement." Again --

'but 

THE COURT: hope that's true. I don't know if it is, 

sure hope it is. 

BY MS. TFFTL: 



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Again, the 1979 race Judge Ortiguc, received oo• percent of 

the black vote; 14 percent of the white vote. That would be 

a racially-charged voting for judicial election, wouldn't it, 

Dr. Miller? 

A Let me see if I can catch up. 

Point 3. 

A 1979 Orleans Civil "H" 9 

Right. 

A There was, there was racial polarizatIon in that race. 

Also in --

THE COURT: Who was running against Judge Ortigue in that 

race? 

MR. RODHEY: Judge Ortigue, Judge? 

THE COURT: Who was running against Judge Ortigue? 

RODNEY: .Riley. 

MS. IFFIL: Pat 

BY 1-1S. IFFIL: 

Also in 1988 the Municipal Court race, the primary in 

whiGh Julien ran, 1988 Municipal Court Julien received 

anywhere between 62 and 54 percent of the black vote and only 

14 percent of the whit ,, vote. Again would you call that rac ,,, 

neutral voting? 

A I think that's polarization. 

IFFIL: T have no further questions. 

BY THE WITNESS: 



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A I would call that polarization. 

MR. BERMAN: No questions. 

MR. PUGN: I have nothing further. 

(Witness is excused.) 

THE COURT: Call your next witness. 

MR. PUGH: Defendants would like to call Dr. Weber to the 

stand. Dr. WPber's report has also been submitted to all 

parties .and to the Court. Dr. Weber will be Exhibit 2. 

Exhibit 2 it is the vitae attached. 



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called '71 C 

RONALD WPPER, 

an expert witness at the instance of the 

defendants, after having been first duly sworn, was examined 

and testified a 

BY DEPUTY NPLSO1J: 

follows: . 

Please be seated. 

THE COURT: Dr. Weber's qualifications, are they set out? 

Yes, they are. 

BY THE COURT: 

Q . Dr. Weber, is that your curriculum vita_ that appears at 

the end of Defense Exhibit 2? 

A Yes, sir, it should be dated on the last page March 1939. 

That would be page 12 perhaps. 
• 

_LI, is eonsist.ingof 12 pages dated March 18, 1989? 

A Yes, sir. 

THE COURT: Does anyone wish to question -- for what 

purpose are you offering him, Mr. Pugh'? 
.• 

MR. PUGH: May it please the Court, as an expert in --

professor of political science carries the same 

characteristics as both of the plaintiffs' witnesses. 

THE COURT: He is being offered as an expert in political 

science and to give testimony, opinion testimony in 

accordance with his report. Any objection to his 

qualifications? 

NS. REED: No, Your Honor. 



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THE COURT: All right, he will be so accepted as an 

expert. He will be permitted to' give expert opinion in 

accordance with his report. 

BY THE COURT: 

Dr. Weber, if you were called upon to testify on direct 

examination, would your testimony be set out in your 

report dated March 23, 1959, and filed herein as Defense 

Exhibit 2? 

1-1 Yes, sir. 

Q All right. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION 

BY MR. BERMAN: 

Dr. Weber, if you were to examine a jurisdiction to 

determine whether racial vote dilution occurs, one of the 

first things you would look for is to the extent that voting 

is virtually polarized, isn't thatone of the first things? 

A Yes. When you do the analysis of such phenomena as 

racial vote dilution, you must begin by looking at 

polarization. 

Then you would look at the proportions of registered 

voters within that jurisdiction for every racial or ethnic 

group you were examining? 

A Well; in thls particular case I did. I think I would 

the data were available for consistencies. I think I would 

use sign-in data, the data by race as people sign in to vote. 



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But this was not available for all the elections. So we went 

to the next best form of data, which is to use the .voter 

registration by race by precinct. 

Q But some form of data that would indicate the electorate 

and its racial characteristics? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q And then a third factor you would look at would be the 

kind of election system that's under challenge, is •that 

correct? 

A Yes. 

Based on those factors I believe it is your testimony 

that within Orleans Parish black citizens have an equal 

opportunity to elect a candidate of their choice, is that 

correct? 

A Yes. 

And Orleans Parish is majority black, correct? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q And it is also your testimony that black citizens within 

the First Supreme Court District have a similar equal 

opportunity to elect candidates of their choice to office, is 

that correct? 

A I believe that statement was made probably on the basis 

of the evidence related to the 3 Supreme Court elections that 

T analyzed, not to all of the elections that I analyzed. 

First Supreme Court District is with regard to registered 



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voters it is 32 percent black, correct? 

A I believe that's true. It is some number in that area 

below 30 percent. 

Q Given the level of racial polarization that occurred, 

what do you base your conclusion on that a black candidate 

can win Th election in the First Supreme Court District? 

=MOM 

A I do not base my conclusion on the fate of the black 

candidate, I base my conclusion on 3 elections that were held 

in the 4 parishes for the First Supreme Court District: The 

1974 race, th.. 1990 race and the 1983 race in which I have 

evidence based upon the, by very progression analysis in 

supreme case analysis as to the preferences of white voters 

and black voters, and in all 3 of those races the preferences 

were no different: That both preferred the winner. 

Q Given the levels of racial polarization as :hibited on . 

Chart 18 to your Exhibit 18 to your right, if you look at the 

6 winning black candidates and if yciu assume an equal turnout 

black voters and white voters throughout the 44 parishes 

within the First Supreme Court District, isn't it -a fact that 

none of those black candidates would win election in a 4-

parish area even with a 99 percent voter support by the black 

community as, for instance, in Judge Ortigue's race? 

A I would be really reluctant to try to do that kind of 

math in my head. For example, if we were to take the 1988 

general election for Traffic Court and to make an assumption 



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that Mr. Dannel, who won that race, were to have received the 

99 percent level of support and to take the 34 percent level 

of support and then to ripple that across the whole district, 

I just I can't be sure that you could do my math correctly to 

be sure what the result would be in that particular election. 

Well, if I were to represent to you that 77 percent, 

which is the amount of black voters' support that Mr. Dannel 

got, times the 32 percent which represents the black 

registered voter percentage in the First District would be 

24.6 percent; and a 34 white crossover vote times the 68 

percent white voter, white registered voter percentage in the 

First District would be 23.12 percent which would come to a 

total of 47.76 percent of the vote. 

A I'm nOt sure if I understand 
. 

where --

Q Basically that's if you were to multiply it out 

percent Mr. Dannel got 

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-- 

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Right, I'm following you. I guess what gives me trouble 

about that is that probably Mr. Dannel would not have been - 

successful in the 4 parishes in such a race because he was 

outspent by his opponent. This was a very interesting• 

circumstance of a black 

incumbent Judge who was 

so without putting into. 

candidate running against an-

outspent, and he won the race. But 

the factors of spending, you know, 



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have won. 

Given the fact that Mr. Dannel did win, given the fact 

that there are 5 other black candidates that did win, without 

paying any attention to the amount of money that they spent, 

their ability to win outside of Orleans Parish is much less 

than their ability to win inside of Orleans Parish, is that 

correct? 

A The only evidence that we have related to outside of 

Orleans Parish are the 2 races in the chart that deal with 

Jefferson Parish, and I already stated in my report that I 

believe that Mr. Council was not a viable candidate in this 

particular race. So I don't think we can make anything out 

of that race as far as black and white preferences are 

concerned. I think we can make a little*more out of the 

Zeno/Cusimano race, but I also think that the fact that Mr. 

Cusimano was an incumbent legislator very well important, 

high name recognition -- Mr. Zeno did not raise and spend 

money at the level that is normally necessary to counter 

someone with high name recognition, then I am not sure that I 

can make anything .very sensible out of those particular races 

as it relates to the voting preferences of the white or black 

voters in Orleans Parish, in Jefferson Parish and extrapolate 

to the rest of the district. 

If you were advising a person who would come to you with 

regard to running for judicial office --



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Yes, sir. 

-- I believe your advice would be become an Assistant 

District Attorney or get on the, become a pro tern or ad hoc  

Judge? 

A Those were the sort of things that we tried to find in my 

deposition, and I stated that I would advise candidates to do 

it, yes, to prepare, to prepare a ladder from which one can 

run eventually to become a Judge. 

MR. BERMAN: No further questions, Your Honor. 

CROSS-EXAM -NATION 

BY MS. 

Dr. Weber, in your report you discussed what you term the 

uniqueness of... judicial elections. - , 

A Yes, r -ht • 

Have you followed judicial elections fairly closely, 

would you say? 

A Well, I have been as I have lived in Louisiana now for 10 

years and followed those elections very closely since 7 have 

been living here I was an officeholder in Indiana prior to 

the time that I lived here, and at that time I worked for and 

supported candidates for judicial election. So T have a fair 

degree of knowledge, I think, both as a professional 

political scientist and as practical experience as to what's 
• 

involved in judicial elections. 

Are you familiar with the California election involving 



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Justice Rosenberg? 

A Yes, ma'am. T have not made any study of it, but I know 

what the election was and what it was about, yes. 

Q Well, you would not term that election a low profile 

election, would you? 

A No, that was a very unusual election, as I think most 

political scientists would say. I think it was to be 

characterized as a high salience, lots and lots of money was 

spent in that election. 

Nor would you, Dr. Weber, consider that a tranquil 

election, would you, a tranquil affair? 

A No, I would not. 

Nor would you consider that an election where issues were 

not discuss " • 

THE COURT: She was the issue, wasn't she? 

T.1S..REED: T believe there was a death penalty issue. 

THE COURT: She was the issue other than the death 

penalty. : don't know what that has got to do with this. 

That's the most 

BY THE WITNESS: 

A This, the hundreds of, the hundreds. of retention 

elections that are held every year in the United States under 

systefi-is like the California system, this was a very different 

election. There is no.question about that. 

BY MS. REED: 



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Well, • Weber, you arc familiar with the 

Jacobs/Calogero race, are you not? 

A . I'm not -- I'm familiar with the outcome, okay. 

familiar with the outcome, yes. 

again you wouldn't call that election a low profile 

election, would. you? 

A I do not have direct knowledge of that. I have been, I 

have heard from people who live in the Orleans area that that 

was, there was a lot of money spent and there was a lot of 

things that went on in that particular election. But I have 

not witnessed that personally living in Baton Rouge. 

Dr. Webc,r, you referred to a comment or an author by the 

name of Mary Vokansic (phon.) in your report, do you-.not? 

A refer to ,-, Mary Vokansic. I'm not sure wh ,„ you mean. 

Q • And do you recognize Ms. Vokansic as an authority in the 

field of elections or in judicial elections in particular? 

A She has written some articles, yes. 

You, in fact, cite her in your report, do you not? 

Yes, I do, but she not s for she would not have the 

standing of, say, Philip Dubois, who has probably done 

most definitive work on judicial elections. 

You cite her in your report? 

A Yes, yes. 

And you also -- well, you said you have mentioned Philip 

Dubois. You have cited' 

the 



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A Yes. 

.Q And you do recognize Dubois as an expert in your field or 

in the field of --

Yes, he is the preeminent expert in terms of having 

written what everyone seems to think is the definitive work 

on judicial elections. 

Are you referring to his book called "From Ballot to 

Bench"? 

A Yes. 

You heard Dr. Engstrom talk about that? 

Yes. 

Well, Dr. Weber, you talk about one of the 

characteristics and how judicial elections differ from other 

elections by referring to low level voter turnout. 

A - Lower levels of voter turnout, yes. 

Don't, in fact, 1-1r. Dubois, or should I address him as 

Doctor? 

A Doctor, professor. 

Dr. Dubois takes a different view of the difference 

between judicial elections and other elections than you UJ: 

A I wouldn't say that. Maybe T missed something in my most 

recent read in of it, but I think we essentially agree. 

Well, let me ask you, you have read, have you not, "From 

Ballot to Pench"? 

A Yes, I have. 



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On page 62 of that book Dr. Dubois concludes that his 

analysis demonstrates "The level of voter turnout in judicial 

elections is primarily a function of institutional 

arrangement under which they are conducted and is not 

reflective of peculiar voter behavior in these kinds of 

elections." 

A T assume that's an accurate quote. 

Well, I can show you it if you like. On that same page 

Dr. Dubois also says, "The low level of voter turnout which 

many critics have observed in State judicial elections is 

easily explained by the propositions developed in electoral 

research to account for the level of turnout observed in 

elections generally." Now, Dr. Weber, you also mentioned 

Vokansic, and wa established that you cite her -in your 

report? 

vPs • 

Have you reed, T believe it's Chapter 6 in a book, and 

the chapter is entitled, I believe the book is entitled "The 

Analysis of Judicial Reform." And this chapter written by 

Mary Vokansie is entitled "The Effect of Judicial Election 

Reform, What We Know and What We Do Not." 

A That is, yes, read that. That is an inventory up to 

this time of all kinds of studies that have been done by 

judicial elections and various aspects of them. 

You would agree with me then that Ms. or Dr. Vokansic 



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comes to a different conclusion than you do on whether 

judicial elections are, in fact, different from other types 

of elections, gould you agree with me? 

A I don't have the article in front of me to reference. 

best recollection of that ar ti cle is that it's an inventory 

of a number of studies done by other researchers. It is 

meant to be sort of a statement of the field at that 

particular point in time, and T don't recall that Professor 

Vo.kansic reported any original research in that particular 

article. 

Oh, no, T didn't mean to mislead you that she did. 

simply I take it you have already reviewed the literature in 

this field, have you not? 

A I have reviewed the leading, -what I have been able to 

determine, is leading work. T have done the bibliographic 

research to turn up what I thought were the most recent 

studies of this. This is not a very well studied field in 

political science, and it is underdeveloped in comparison to 

other fields. But I have done my best to assess this field. 

Well, would it surprise you to learn that Mary Vokansic 

concludes, and I'm quoting: "Th-,, literature on judicial 

elections strongly suggests that races for judgeships are not 

significantly different from other sub-presidential 

elections." 



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THE COURT: She hasn't lived in Louisiana. She hasn't 

lived in Louisiana and read election returns. She hasn't 

read what the paper prints, how many people voted for the top 

of the ticket and how many people voted in judicial 

elections. She hasn't lived in Louisiana and looked at the 

turnout when we have solely judicial elections and when we 

have other issues. And I can take judicial cognizance of the 

fact that insofar as Louisiana is concerned I think that 

statement is utterly incorrect, and anybody who wants tti I 

will tell you what T will do. T will give everybody 10 days 

to submit 01 a. to me showing that that statement insofar 

as in Louisiana is inaccurate, statistically inaccurate. 

MS. REED: Well, Your Honor 

THE COURT: You have 10 days in which to submit your 

brief, anybody, that that figure goes back to the elections 

in Louisiana where there have been judicial elections and go 

back and compare the top of the ticket with what they voted 

on the judicial elections. Go look in the voter turnout in 

judicial elections when only judicial elections were at 

issue. 

REED: I believe I don't know --

THE COURT: You have 10 days in which to do that if you 

wish. 

IS. REED: Fine, Your Honor. If I may move on to another 

area that Dr. Weber talked about. 



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THE COURT: I mean we have got so many issues that are 

important in this case, and I don't think you could convince 

anybody that's lived here that you get the same interest in 

judicial elections that you get in other elections. You have 

to be living in a vacuum to believe that. 

MS. REED: U.,.11, Your Honor, if I may be permitted to 

address this very briefly I don't think that there is a claim 

that judicial elections are exactly like other elections, for 

example, presidential elections. T think --

THE COURT: Not presidential, I'm talking about local 

elections. This State is election silly if I have 

describe it. it. Every visitor that comes here they say, You 

always have an election every time come to New Orleans. 

Just give .r11 -6 the figures, and I will recant. Those f'o.ur - 

are available in all kinds of newspaper article reports all 

over. 

MS. REED: ' felt it was appropriate to ask Dr. U-ber 

about commentators that he cited and what their views 14 ,,, re. 

BY MS. REED: 

If I may move on to the campaign finance question, you 

stated that Anderson Council was not c_ nandidate." 

Yet you wouldn't disagree that he got over 

black vote, would-you? 

A that' s true. Yes, he did. 

r) percent of the 

Dr. Weber, you would not tell a black candidate 



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definitively that this black candidate could win in District 

81 -- I'm sorry, in Jefferson Parish where David Duke ran for 

election and could win there, would you? 

A I'm sorry? 

You wouldn't claim that a black candidate in Jefferson 

Parish that whether that candidate won or lost would depend 

on how much money he or she spent, would you? 

ft 
tl I would certainly advise any candidate including black 

candidates to try to raise !Is much money and spend as much 

money as possible. 

BY THE COURT: 

Q No, the question was, and.: think the q'uestion almost 

answers itself, I would imagine District 81 must be about 95 

percent white, and it is a very conservative district. The 

question was no matter how much money a black candidate spent 

you wouldn't advise him to run in that district, would you? 

A No, not in District 81. No, I didn't understand it was 

District 31 she was-asking about. 

BY MS. REED: 

Q Your Honor stated the question more clearly than T did. 

In your section of the report where you discuss the history 

of the discrimination in Louisiana, Dr. Weber, one of the 

things, one of the .studies that you rely on for your 

conclusion that there is no longer discrimination -- and I 

believe you term it in Southern States that touches upon the 



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right to vote is a study done by Abramson and Clag*et (phon.) 

due to be published in May? 

A Yes, ma'am. 

Q Isn't it true that, Dr. Weber, that the Abramson and 

Claget, the authors of that study, admit that their study is 

inconclusive because they cannot discount the possibility 

that randomness. produced the results of their study? 

A Ma'am, I'm having some difficulty understanding how 

randomness would affect --

Q In other words, they cannot eliminate the possibility 

that the results may have been random? 

A Well, I think to the extent that it was it appears to be 

a deviant pattern from patterns in previous elections. 

think that's why they may be concerned, and I think any 

investigator would be concerned that there simply may have 

been something that occurred randomly in that particular 

election. it Would take more elections in effect to be sure 

that what they show in that particular report for 1986 is 

continuing. 

Dr. Weber, your opinion as to the existence of racial 

block voting in the First District is based primarily on your 

analysis of elections that include both white on white races 

and black on white races? 

A Yes, ma'am, it includes both. 

In fact, over 50 percent of the races you analyzed are 



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involving white candidates only, isn't that right? 

A 7 believe that's right, yes. 

Q You testified you are familiar with the Jingles (phon.) 

case, are you? 

A Oh, yes. 

Q And you are aware then that in Jingles the District Court 

and Supreme Court were able to reach a conclusion as to 

whether there was racial block voting based on analysts of 

black on white elections only, are you not? 

A Yes, they were. My understanding is that the experts on 

all sides decided that they were only going to look at those 

elections. 

Q Well, the Jingles Court accepted that view, did they not? 

Yes, but I don't think' -- I guess what my point is I 

don't believe the Court was presented with the question of if 

it had had white on white elections what would have been the 

value of those elections? 

Q Well, Dr. Weber --

BY THE COURT: 

Q Can I interpose a question here because there's something 

that's bothering me? Maybe this will resolve it all this 

question. When you have white on white elections with a 

large black voting population, obviously there is no voter 

dilution because the blacks may be the swing vote, and then 

you get the person of their choice. So that's animal A. But 



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when you have black and white election, then you can have 

voter dilution. So you can take the same area, the same 

population and one election have voter dilution and one have 

not, is that not correct, or dm I wrong? 

MS. REED: Well, Your Honor, I'm not sure that I am the 

one who is qualified to address those kinds of questions. 

THE COURT: Well, you all - 

MS. REED: It is our position that you have to analyze as 

Dr. Engstrom testified you have to analyze the black on white 

races in order to determine whether the black candidates, 

whether the black candidate is preferred. 

THE COURT: fly question helps you unless you may 

wouldn't object if -- I would have jumped at„,t,hat question 

it was in your favor.. 

BY THE COURT: 

But isn't that correct? 

A I'm not sure I understand Your Honor either .what -- I 

mean I understand - 

Q We are talking about voter dilution, 

A Yes, sir. 

We can't talk about apples and oranges. If an election, 

let's take the same area, same voting population. At one 

point they vote; you can have voter dilution of blacks when 

they are running against a white, and at the very next month 

you can have another election where the blacks happen to be 



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the swing vote. Then there is no voter dilution, correct? 

19causr, in that case you would get, in the white on white 

race you would have the black voters getting their candidate 

of choice. 

On the white on white when there is no black candidate 

there, .y would be determining the election. But when 

there is black on white, they may be subsued (phon.)? 

A 

fl 

That can be the case in a number of cases. 

Okay. 

Oka Your Honor, we have no further questions. 

of Dr. Weber. 

1:R. PUGH: We have nothing further, Your Honor. 

THE COUT: All right, go ahead. 

PUGH: I have no further questions. 

THE COURT: don t have anything further. 

R. PUGH: Those are the 2 witnesses that we have 

indicated we would call and did call, Your Honor. 

(Witness is excused. 

THE COURT: Do you rest also? 

117. PUGH: Yes, Your Honor. 

THE CO=: Any rebuttal witnesses on the part of 

intervenors or plaintiffs, any reb uttal? They have rested. 

MR. BERMAN: Not for the United States, Your Honor. 

113. REED: No, Your Honor, no rebuttal. 

THE COURT: All right, obviously don't need any argument 

(7. 



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because I am not going to rule from the bench. So don't need 

to argue the case. 

HS. REED: We somehow thought that - 

THE COURT: Does anyone feel the necessity of submitting 

any further briefs on or memorandum? 

MS. 7.)T77.7n. 

• DEMIAI!: 

Yes, we do, Your Honor. 

do. 

THE COURT: You do? 

HS. REED: I believe it appropriate for the submission of 

supplemental findings of fact and conclusions and. perhaps a 

short additional brief. 

THE CCURT: . How much time? 

• REED: Ten (10) days, Your Honor, from today. 

TEE COURT: All right. Now, I presume you want to reply; 

MR. PUGH:* Yes, T would like the right to reply. 

TUE COURT: How much tim..2. will you need to reply? 

M. PUGH: Another 19 days for me. 

THE COURT: All right, ' will give you 10 days from 

today. 

• BERMAN: Could we have one moment? 

THE COURT: How about one w--,k after you get, one week to 

get -- your memorandum will be due one week after you get the 

transcript, and you still can have -- you don't know what 

they're going to say I will give you 10 days to 'reply from 

the day you get their copy.. That shortens it a littl!, bit. 



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I would like to take a feu moments really to congratulate and 

thank, sincerely thank all of the attorneys who participated 

in this case. And I know some of you didn't examine any 

witnesses, but you had a lot to do with the case. The reason 

I would like to congratulate you is because you made the 

Court's job of a difficult situation somewhat easier to 

resolve. You didn't put on any unnecessary evidence. You in 

good faith prepared stipulations about matters that were not 

in dispute. T wish all the attorneys that appeared in Court 

would expedite the trial in that manner. The briefs that you 

submitted thus far were excellent and rise to the level, 

think, of a Law Review article on both sides. 

Despite the fact that I have jumped on any of you at one 

time, it was a rear pleasure to proceed with you people in a 

difficult, and I think hard fought case as this. And you 

also controlled your emotions as you should do in Court, and 

think overall this type of matter and many matters this 

from an overall standpoint is one of the best performances 

have seen in a difficult matter. And I don't recall having 

making this long speech at the end of a trial T haven't 

decided in a long time. So T rib want to thank you, and T 

sincerely mean it and appreciate your efforts. Thank you 

very much. 

MR. PUGH: Judge, I'm sorry we misjudged about 2 days 

length of the trial. It is usually the other way around, so 



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there is some benefit. 

(Court adjourned at )4:56 p.m.) 

REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 

The undersigned certifies, in his capacity of Official 

Court Reporter for the United States District Court, Eastern 

District of Louisiana, the foregoing to be a true and correct 

- n Ltra nsc ri p tion" ._„,lon of his 3L,enograph notes taken during the 

procPedixrs in the above-numbered and titled case on the 

day of April, 1989. 

New Orleans', Louisiana, the day of April, 199,9. 

DAVID A. ZArry 
Official Court Reporter