Gaines v. Dougherty County Board of Education Multilith Record

    MULTILITH RECORD

IN THE

UNITED STATES

C O U R T O F A PPEA LS
FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT

No. 24236
SHIRLEY GAINES, PATRICIA ANN GAINES,
MARIAN GAINES,  MINORS,  by MONROE  GAINES,
their father  and next friend, ET AL,

Appellants

versus

DOUGHERTY COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION,  

ET AL,

Appel lee i

Appeal from the United States District Court 
for the Middle District of Georgia.



I N D E X
PAGE NO.

Designation-----------------   1
Motion for Further Relief---------------- -— -- 3
Photostatic Copy of Appendices A (Text for
Choice of School Form) ----------- -------- - 10

Note: Portion of Record omitted -
Filed in its Original Form-----------------  11

Important School Notice -■— ----- ----- --------- 11
Photostatic Copy of the above-- --------- ----- 14 - 15
Photostatic Copy of FULL-TIME NEGRO 

STUDENTS ENROLLED IN PREVIOUSLY ALL-
WHITE SCHOOLS------------------------ — — —  16

Transcript of Proceedings (Depositions)  — 17
J. J. Cordell---------------------  17
Herbert Preston Haley------- ------- 56

Note: Portion of Record omitted -
Filed in its Original Form ----------------- 73

Memorandum Opinion and Order on Plaintiff's
Motion for Further Relief -------- --------- 73

Notice of Appeal--- -------------- ------- -— —  86
Note: Portion of Record omitted -

Filed in its Original Form ----- -— ---------  86
Transcript of Proceedings — -—  --- -----------  87

Mr. Harold E. McNabb --—    ---- ---  90
Mr. J. J. Cordell----- ------------ - 118
Mr. Herbert P. Haley-- ------- ---- - 16 5

Note: Portion of Record omitted -
Filed in its Original Form------- -— ------ — 220



1

IN THE

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS 

FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT 

NO. 24236

SHIRLEY GAINES, PATRICIA ANN GAINES,
MARIAN GAINES, minors, by MONROE GAINES, 
their father and next friend, et al,

Appellants,

v.

DOUGHERTY COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION 
et al.,

Appellees.

APPEAL FROM THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF GEORGIA

DESIGNATION OF RECORD ON APPEAL

(Filed: December 5, 1966)

Appellants, pursuant to Rule 23(a) of this Court and Rule 

75(a) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, hereby designate 

the following portions of the record on appeal to be included 

in the printed record:

1. Motion for further relief filed in the Middle 

District of Georgia, R. 2-7.

2. Exhibits of defendants, D.l - D.5 (R. 23-25).

3. The following portions of the depositions of J. J.



2

Cordell and Herbert Preston Haley:
(a) Deposition of J. J. Cordell, R. 26 to 41 

(through line 21; R. 59 (line 8) to 82.
(b) Deposition of Herbert Preston Haley, R. 108-124.

4. The memorandum opinion and order of the District 
Court filed August 22, 1966, R. 126-136.

5. Notice of appeal filed September 7, 1966.
6. The following portions of the transcript of testimony, 

found in the supplemental record on appeal:
(a) Colloquy, pp. 3-6.
(b) Testimony of Harold E. McNabb, pp. 6 to 15 

(through "A. Oh, no sir.''); 33 (from
"Q. BY MR. KING:") to 40 through "... in 
several years”); 42 (from "Have you had ...") 
to 54.

(c) Testimony of J. J. Cordell, pp. 54 to 59 
through "A. That's right") 61 (from
"Q. MR. KING: Since there's some question
...") to 76 (through "Q. Has the Board ...
A. No."); 85 to 86 (through "... she would 
go back to all Negro school."); 87 (from 
"DIRECT EXAMINATION") to 102 (through "THE 
COURT: All right."); 106 (from "BY THE
COURT...") to 112.

(d) Testimony of Herbert Preston Haley, pp. 113-162.



3

7. This designation.
S/ Charles Stephen Ralston 

JACK GREENBERG 
JAMES M. NABRIT, III 
CHARLES STEPHEN RALSTON 

10 Columbus Circle 
New York, New York 10019

C. B. KING
P. 0. Box 1024 
Albany, Georgia

a a aOOOa a a
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF GEORGIA 

ALBANY DIVISION
SHIRLEY GAINES, PATRICIA ANN GAINES,
MARIAN GAINES, minors, by MONROE 
GAINES, their father and next friend, 
and others,

Plaintiffs,
v> CIVIL ACTION

NO. 764
DOUGHERTY COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION,
a public body corporate, and others, (Filed: June 23, 1966)

Defendants.
MOTION FOR FURTHER RELIEF

Plaintiffs, by their undersigned counsel, hereby move this 
Court to require the defendants to revise the desegregation plan 
currently in force so as to conform to the standards for school 
desegregation plans issued by the United States Department of 
Health, Education and Welfare in March of 1966. A copy of said 
standards is attached hereto and will be referred to hereinafter



4

as the "HEW11 plan. As grounds for this motion, plaintiffs 
show the following:

1. There has been no provision made for the desegrega­
tion of teachers, principals and other professional and non­
professional staff members.

The Dougherty County Board of Education has failed to 
meet the burden of disestablishing the segregated school sys­
tem in that it has failed to address itself to, and has other­
wise ignored its responsibility to desegregate teachers and 
other staff personnel of the system.

Plaintiffs prayed in their original complaint to this 
Honorable Court that it grant relief by enjoining defendants 
to desegregate teacher and personnel assignments. On August 
27, 1963 this Honorable Court entered an order pursuant to 
the above complaint in which it said,

“The court is not at this time ruling on the ques­
tion of assignment of teachers and other professional 
personnel."
Approximately three years have elapsed since this court 

ruled in effect that it was not the time to deal with the 
problem of teacher and personnel assignment. Over this very 
protracted duration of time, the Board has persisted in fail­
ing to take any affirmative steps in the direction of teacher 
and personnel intergration.

2. Inadequate provisions have been made for giving



5

full and sufficient notice to all parents and students in 
the school system of their right to transfer to another school. 
Moreover, an inadequate period of time has been provided for 
pre-registration and for transferring.

A notice in the Albany Herald on March 30, 1966 indi­
cated that those seeking desegregated assignments for the 
1966-67 school year must apply for such assignments between 
April 4th and April 8th between the hours of 8:30 ASM. and 
5:00 P.M. Subsequently the Superintendent of Education placed 
another notice in the Albany Herald on April 15, 1966 which in­
dicated that there would be another similar registration period 
from April 18-22, 1966.

3. The defendant School Board has failed to effectively 
desegregate the school system in that it has not in the past 
nor does it now treat formerly all Negro and formerly all 
white schools as parts of a unitary and uniform system of 
education of this county.

Students transferring 5 from the formerly all Negro high 
school to the formerly all white high school have not been 
given full credit toward graduation for certain courses which 
they have taken in the school from which they have trans­
ferred. Students who have received one full credit for 
courses which they have taken in the all Negro school are on­
ly given 1/4 or 1/2 half credit for those courses upon



6

transferring to the formerly all white school. These courses 
include band, physical education, and family living. More­
over, students who have received excellent ratings in band in 
the formerly all Negro school, have not been admitted to the 
band in the formerly all white school.

WHEREFORE, plaintiffs pray for an order directing de­
fendants to institute a plan which shall include, at a mini­
mum, the following:

1. Race or color will henceforth not be a factor in 
the hiring, assignment, reassignment, promotion, demotion, 
or dismissal or teachers and other professional staff, with 
the exception that assignments should be made in order to 
eliminate the effects of past discrimination.

(a) Teachers, principals and staff members will 
be assigned to schools so that the faculty and staff are
not composed of members of one race. Some Negro student teach­
ers shall be assigned to schools predominated by white stu­
dents and some white student teachers shall be assigned to 
schools predominated by Negro students. Some persons of each 
race shall be on the professional staff in each school of the 
system, or in the alternative, a significant portion of the 
professional staff of each race will be assigned to parti­
cular schools in the system where their race is a minority.

(b) In the recruitment and the employment of teach­
ers and other professional personnel or applicants or other



7

prospective employees, they will be informed that Dougherty 
County operates a racially integrated system and that members 
of its staff are subject to assignment in the best interest of 
the system and without regard to race or color of the parti­
cular employee.

(c) Teachers and other professional staff will not 
be dismissed, demoted or passed over for retention, promotion 
or rehiring on the grounds of race or color. In any instances 
where one or more teacher or other professional staff members 
are to be displaced as a result of desegregation or school 
closing, they shall be transferred to any position in a sys­
tem where there is a vacancy for which they are qualified.

(d) No staff vacancy in the school system shall be 
filled through recruitment outside the system unless a school 
official can show that a displaced staff member is not quali­
fied to fill the vacancy. Further, if the progress of the 
desegregation plan results in a reduction in the professional 
staff, the qualifications of all staff members must be evalu­
ated in selecting the staff members to be released. HEW § 
181.13.

2. Opportunity for transfer for the school year 1966-67 
shall be reopened to provide at least two additional weeks for 
students to exercise their option.

3. Hereafter, timely notice will be given to all



8

prospective pupils of the choice open to them in order that 
they shall have ample opportunity to exercise such choice.

(a) On or shortly before the date the choice period 
opens, a notice describing the desegregation plan will be 
published in the local newspapers. HEW § 181.53.

(b) On the first school day of the choice period, 
an explanatory notice and a choice form will be sent home with 
each child in the Dougherty County school system.. Extra 
copies of the explanatory notice and the choice form will be 
freely available to the students, prospective students, 
parents, and the general public at each school in the system 
and at the office of the superintendent. The explanatory 
notice and choice form will be in substantially the form
as set out in Appendices A attached hereto, HEW § 181.46,

(c) The exercise of choice may also be made by the 
submission of any other writing which contains information to 
identify the student and indicates that he has made a choice 
of school. HEW § 181.46.

4. The period for exercising choice will be no less 
than thirty days, as close to the end of the school year as 
possible, preceding the school year for which choice is to 
be exercised. No student or prospective student who exer­
cises his choice within a choice period should be given the 
choice because of the time within the period when such choice 
was exercised, HEW § 181,44.



9

5. Students transferring from one school to another 
school within the Dougherty County school system, shall not 
lose credits which they have previously earned i n the school 
which they formerly attended. Moreover, students who have 
been deemed qualified to participate in certain extra­
curricular activities in one school will be presumed to be 
qualified to participate in those same activities on trans- 
ferral.

Movants further pray that this action be advanced on 
ftie calendar of this Court sufficiently to accommodate Movants 
and members of their class in regard to the relief sought by 
them for the coming academic year.

Respectfully submitted,
S/ C. B. King 

C. B. KING 
P. 0. Box 1024 
ALBANY, GEORGIA
JACK GREENBERG 
CHARLES STEPHEN RALSTON 

10 COLUMBUS CIRCLE 
NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10019

...o0o...



TEXT FOR CHOICE OF SCHOOL FORM 
(Requirod by § 181.46 of the Statement- of Policies)

k f  SBPAEATB SCHOOLS HAVE B E E N  M A I N T A I N E D  F O B  O T H E R  T H A N  Nf.C.RO AN D W H I T E  S T U D E N T S ,  T E X T  IS  TO BE  A D JU S T E D  
„ -  ACCORDINGLY)

(School System Name and Office Address) 

C hoice of School F ohm
(Dale sent)

This form is provided for vou to choose the school your child will aiieiul for the coniine school year, fi 
does not matter which school the child has been attending, and if dues not matter whether the school 
you choose was formerly a white or a Negro school. C  --- .V ■
C85BK3§SS£ti^i This form must either be brought to any school or mailed to the Superintendent’s
office at the address above by . . . -------------------- ------------ ‘ If the student is 15 years old by the date
of choice, or will be entering the ninth or a higher grade, either the student or his parent may make the 
choice.

1. Name of C h ild _______ _________________________________ _________________
Last First Middle

2. A g e ........................
3. School and grade currently or last attended______________________________  Grade
4. School Chosen (Mark X beside school chosen)

Name of School Grades Location

[Here list by name, grades offered, and location each school available. For example:]
□  George Washington High School S—12 Adams St., Jefferson
□  James Madison Elementary School 1 - 7  Monroe St., Jackson

This form is signed by (mark 
proper box) :
Parent □
Other adult person acting as 
parent □
Student □

Signature________________________ _ .P ___
Address_________________ _____ _______ fS
D a te ____________ ______ _____ _________

This block is to be filled in by the Superintendent’s office, not by person signing. 
Is student assigned to school chosen? □  Yes □  No

If not, explain:........................... ........................................... ............... ........... ..............

U .S . COVCHHIM HT MHHTING O f f f C I  : 15*% O — l  1 0 -1 0 0



11

* * * * * *

NOTE: PORTION OF RECORD OMITTED
FILED IN ORIGINAL FORM

•k "k "k ie ie ie

000O0Oo0O

IMPORTANT SCHOOL NOTICE 
SCHOOL REGISTRATION

MONDAY THROUGH FRIDAY - APRIL 4-8, 1966
Parents of a child entering the First Grade in Sep­

tember, 1966 shall register their child at the former all 
Negro school or the former all white school nearest their 
residence.

All students now in school shall be assigned to schools, 
without the necessity of registration, for the school year 
beginning in September, 1966 subject to the right of transfer 
as hereinafter set forth.

All students who will be in grades 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10,
11, and 12 during the school year beginning in September,
1966 shall have the right to request assignment to the former 
all Negro school or the former all white school nearest their 
residence. All such requests for assignments must be made 
at the Administration Building of the Dougherty County School 
System, 601 Flint Avenue, Albany, Georgia and must be made in 
person by the students and each student must be accompanied 
by his or her parent or guardian.



12

Registration and requests for assignment shall be made 
during the week of April 4-8 between the hours of 8:30 a.m. 
and 5:00 p.m.

J„ J„ Cordell
Superintendent of Education

. a • OOO 0 . .
IMPORTANT SCHOOL NOTICE 

SCHOOL REGISTRATION EXTENDED 
MONDAY THROUGH FRIDAY - APRIL 18-22, 1966

Parents of a child entering the First Grade in Sep- 
tember, 1966 shall register their child at the former all 
Negro school or the former all white school nearest their 
residence.

All students now in school shall be assigned to schools, 
without the necessity of registration, for the school year 
beginning in September, 1966 subject to the right of transfer 
as hereinafter set forth.

All students who will be in grades 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,
8, 9, 10, 11, and 12 during the school year beginning in Sep­
tember, 1966 shall have the right to request assignment to 
the former all Negro school or the former all white school 
nearest their residence. All such Requests for assignments 
must be made at the Administration Building of the Dougherty 
County School System, 601 Flint Avenue, Albany, Georgia and 
must be made in person by the students and each student must



13

be accompanied by his or her parent or guardian.
Registration and requests for assignment shall be made 

during the week of April 18-22 between the hours of 8:30 
a.m. and 5:00 p.m.

J. J. Cordell
Superintendent of Education 

. . , O 0 O..a



IMPORTANT SCHOOL NOTICE
SCHOOL REGISTRATION 
Monday Through Friday

1966
Parents of a child entering the First Grade in September, 1966 shall

register their child at the former oil 
school nearest their midenesfe ^
,/ -.4

i AJfsfurients :t>ow Ip schtw^ 
hasegwity ^/W^fratlop,. 
subject fq the fight of ;b$'"

;o school or the former all white
... v '• • l.v' '?T£ ■**>*•>.

■ jlaW : %
fining ift Slperfiher, 1966 

;er set forth. V •

4/ 5, d ; TO, 1 T, crtTd* 12 during 
shall

or the i C ^ i K ^ !

•* Ail students Who will Be lh gr< 
fhe schodl yegr begi.anjhg jn ^ p  
osslghrnent to the forp^r 
nearest their residence. All such rfepsiests fer asslgnfhetifjt: hiusf be (hade at 
the Administration Building of the Dougherty County School System, 601 
Flint Avenue, Albany, Georgia, and must be made in person by the students 
and each student must be accompanied by his or her parent or guardian,

Registration and requests for assignment shall be made during the week 
of April 4-8 between the hours of 8;30 a.m. and 5:00 p.m.

J. J. CORDELL
Superintendent of Education

j



IMPORTANT SCHOOL NOTICE 
School Registration Extended 

Monday Through Friday 
April 1 8 -2 2 , 1966

. ■ i
Parents of a child entering the First Grade in’; September, 1966 shall y # • l

register their child at the former all Negro school 'or the former all white
school nearest their residence.

r-.A*- Ail students now in school shall bo assigned to schools, without the 
# rteg^ration, for the SOh'ool yeor beginning in September, 1966 

;- ^ p 4 ;to  the rfijjht of transfer as hereinafter set forth,
' i' \ ■ ■ • ■’ . . . ’ ’

• Afl students who will be in grades 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 17, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12
dyring the school year beginning in September,- 1966 shall have the right
pt request assignment to the former all Negro schoofor the ̂ former alj.wjids
schpol nearest their residence. All such requests fof assignments must be
made at the Administration Building of the Dougherty County School
System, 601 Flint Avenue, Albany, Georgia ond must be made in person
by the students and each student must be accompanied by his or her parent 
or guardian.

Registration and requests for assignment shall be made during the week 
of April 18-22 between the hours of 8:30 a.m. and 5:00 p.m.

J. J. CORDELL
Superintendent of, Education



16J M '
FULL-TIME NEGRO STUDENTS ENROLLED IN PREVIOUSLY ALL-WHITE SCHOOLS

School 1 9 6 h - 6 S 1965-66 1966-6

Albany High School 6 72 177

Dougherty High School 16 30

Albany Junior High 33

Dougherty Junior High 26

Merry Acres Jr. High 20

McIntosh Jr. High 26

Broad Elementary 13 1*5 119

Highland Elementary 13 37 72

Isabella " 1
Mamie Brosnan " u h 12

Mock Road " 9 17

Mulberry " 2 11 15

Radium Springs " 5

Sylvandale " u 9 22

Sylvester Rd. " 2 2

Turner " 2 9 8

Albany Area Voc-Tech. 12 30 U5

Total 56 2b5 629



17

(1) TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
(Number and title omitted) (Filed: )
Albany, Georgia 2:00 P.M. August 4, 1966„

Depositions of - J. J. CORDELL, HARRY MARTIN, and 
HERBERT PRESTON HALEY - called by the Plaintiff for the pur­
poses of cross examination, before Elizabeth Clark, Notary 
Public, Georgia, Bibb Countytestimony taken at the Federal 
Building, Albany, Georgia, beginning at 2:00 P.M., August 4, 
1966.

APPEARANCES:
For Plaintiffs: MR. C. B. KING

MR. CHARLES LAWRENCE 
Post Office Box 1024 
Albany, Georgia

For Defendants: MR. J. W. WALTERS
Perry, Walters, Langstaff & Lippitt 
Post Office Box 527 
Albany, Georgia

STIPULATION:
Depositions taken by agreement with all formalities 

being WAIVED. Reading and signing of transcript by the wit­
nesses is WAIVED by witnesses and counsel. All objections, 
except to the form of the question, are RESERVED to the time 
of trial.
(2) J. J. CORDELL
Witness, called by the Plaintiff, being first duly sworn,



18

testified on
CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. KING:
Q Would you state your full name for the record, Mr.
Cordell?
A I am J. J.Cordell.
Q What is your official calling or occupation, sir?
A Superintendent of schools.
Q That is, of Dougherty County?
A Superintendent of Education, Dougherty County.
Q I see. Mr. Cordell, calling your attention to the
notice specifically that was given by the Board of Education, 
that is, Dougherty County, to pupils who were or might have 
been interested in effecting a transfer from previously all 
white schools to previously all negro schools or vice versa, 
would you indicate whether or not there was an official de­
termination on the part of your office regarding the number 
of notices or publications of days on which such applications 
for transfers could be made?
A I was instructed by the Board to publish the notices in
the Albany Herald. The number of times was not designated by 
the Goard at that time and a copy be given to every child in 
all the schools.
Q I see. Do you have in your possession, in your (3)
official capacity as the Superintendent of Education.



19

Dougherty County, a copy of the resolution from whence your 
authority came, sir?

(Witness hands document to Mr. King.)
Q All right. Now, pursuant to what is reflected in --
what do you call this book?
A That is the Book of Minutes, Dougherty County Board 
of Education.
Q This is the Book of Minutes of the Dougherty County
Board of Education. Are you the custodian of that, sir?
A Yes.
Q Now, in light of what is reflected on the Minutes
dated March 15, 1965, it was initially indicated, was it 
not, that April 5 through 9 would be the days open for appli­
cations on the part of students attending the various schools 
of the Board of Education of --
A As I recall, in the original plans, it was the first 
week in April. It was stated the first week in April.
Q I see.
A And that means the first school week in April and that
was used —  April 5-9.
Q Now, was there, in fact, notices given pursuant to the
observation made in this Minute, that is March 15, 1965?
That is, it makes the observation that the registration (4) 
Period would be from April 5 through the 9th and —
A That's right.



20

Q And notice was given?
A That's right.
Q Do you have the —
A That's a copy of the notice.
Q This is a copy of the notice. Would you indicate, Mr.
Cordell, what media were used in terms of publicizing 
this, sir?
A Well,-the Albany Herald was used, and I'm not sure --
this year we used the Albany Herald, the Albany Journal, and 
the Southwest Georgian, and I think we used all three last 
year.
Q I see.
A But I cannot be positive about all three but I can be
positive about the Albany Herald. But for 1966 we did use the 
other 'two and I think we used them last year.
Q I see. Was there any other medium or media for dis­
seminating notice for the period of registration aside from 
this?
MR, WALTERSs

What year are you referring to?
MR. KING:

March 1966.
THE WITNESS:
A Just the notice to the students, to every student, and
in 1966 we published notice in all three papers.



21

(5) Q I see.
A But that was it.
Q Then, the notices that were given of transfer by the 
Board of Education were as follows, as I understand it?
The three newspapers, one daily and two weeklies, more 
specifically, the Albany Herald, the Southwest Georgian, and 
tie Albany Journal, is that correct?
A That's right.
Q And, secondly, you say that notices were given to each 
student in the Dougherty Board, that is, each student at­
tending schools of the Dougherty Board of Education?
A My action in that matter was to call the principals 
together and give them a copy for each child and instruct 
them to give them to each child. That’s right.
Q And, presumably, this was done. Would you indicate,
Mr. Cordell, whether or not you have in your file a copy of 
the notices that were given to each student or the principals, 
presumably, at the various schools?
A This is it right here.
Q The same thing that was published in the papers was
similarly given to each student?
A Yes.
Q (Hands paper to Reporter) Would you mark this for
identification purposes, please?

(Reporter identifies paper as P-1.)



22

Q So what has been identified as P-1 was the content of
the notice that was put in the various news media that you 
have previously indicated as three and were presumably given 
to each student in the various schools of the Dougherty 
County Board of Education, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q Now, were there any other notices bearing upon transfer, 
right to transfer, disseminated by the Board of Education, 
sir?
A No.
Q These were the exclusive notices that were used, that
you have identified as P-1? Is that right?
A That's right.
Q Now, Mr. —
A in tnat connection, we did originally publish a plan of
desegregation —  that was originally published, a plan of de­
segregation. As I recall, it was published in one of the 
papers.
Q So when you say you originally published your plan of
desegregation in the papers, you mean when the plan of de­
segregation was ordered by the Court initially?
A That's right.
Q You aren't suggesting that there was a republication
of it in advance of the commencement of the most recent



23

term, are you, sir?
A No.
(7) Q So, you are really referring to what your
conduct was responsive to the court order in the first 
instance, is that correct?
A That's right.
Q But your response to my question as it was initially 
given regarding the notices that were disseminated relating 
to the 1966-67 academic year of the public schools of this 
system, P-1 is a notice, and exclusive notice, that was 
given both in terms of advertising in the various news media 
that you have given and being presumably given to each one 
of the students, is that correct?
A That's correct. Now, that was true in 1965. Now in 
1966 we had another notice.
Q In 1966 you had another notice? All right, when was
that, sir?
A That was April 18 - 22.
Q April 18 - 22?
A That's right. This is a copy of this notice right here.
Q I see. Now, is there a variance -- yes, there is, I
see. (Turns to reporter.) Would you mind identifying this, 
please?

(Reporter identifies paper as P-2.)
Q I submit what has been identified as P-2, to you, Mr.



24

Cordell, now P-2 is a further notice that was given (8) by 
the various news media, that is, the three papers again, 
and was it similarly given to each student?
A Each student.
G It was given again to each student. All right, now,
this is distinguishable from the notice relating to April 5 
through 9, in what particular, do you recall, sir?
A Yes, it did two things. Under the original plan, the
Jr. High School was not scheduled to be desegregated until 
the fall of 1967. But the Board of Education at the request 
of some parents decided to go ahead and desegregate the Jr, 
High Schools in the fall of 1966, and I was authorized to do 
that and to extend the registration period for one week. As 
a result of that decision by the Board, we published this 
notice to that effect.
Q Now, the extension of the period for registration by
one week, can you explain what was the fact determinative 
of the decision of the Board presumably to extend it by one 
week?
A Well, during the period of the registration for the
grades that were scheduled to be desegregated in 1966, we 
had several requests from parents who wanted their children 
to transfer to the white, previously all white Jr. High 
School.
Q Well, I am not speaking specifically of that because,



25

as a matter of fact, you had instructed persons responsible 
for the registration of transferees that if their (9) stu­
dents or if the students were interested in transferring to 
the, I believe it was the seventh, eighth and ninth grades, 
wag it not, that they would not be permitted to transfer? 
Initially, this was the program, isn't that true?
A Those grades weren't mentioned in this. It was just 
the grades that were to be desegregated in the first notice, 
No mention had been made of the seventh, eighth, and ninth 
grades.
Q Well, since you elected to mention that, I am asking 
you, sir, was it not the instruction given by your or some­
body in authority that transferees and their parents seeking 
to have their children registered for grades, seven, eight 
and nine, I believe it was, would not be permitted to 
register them for that?
A I don't know if they had any definite instructions but
they were instructed what students to register and that was 
for the fifth, sixth and tenth, but they were given no in­
structions to register for the seventh, eighth and ninth.
G I see. So when you speak in terms of requests there
were parents who notwithstanding this affirmative responsi­
bility put on the people you had there registering sought to 
have their children enrolled anyway in these grades, seven, 
eight and nine not mentioned, is that correct?



26

A I can recall two parents in particular*
Q All right, now, but my specific concern here, (10) sir, 
addresses itself to whether or not there was an explanation, 
as to why there was a further extension of one week. Was 
there not some event between April 5 and April 9 which meant 
that -- was there not a holiday intervening between April 5 
and 9? My best recollection is that there was because, as I 
recall, I did speak to Mr* Walters with reference to it*
You don't have any independent recollection of that?
A At this point I'm not sure*
Q You don't have any recollection of any holiday event, 
that is, national or regional or state holiday?
A Well, we had spring holidays in the school along about
that time but at this minute I cannot recall for sure that 
one of the days was a spring holiday.
Q Well, don't you have --
A it could have been.
Q Don't you have some independent recollection of that, 
being as a matter of fact, one of the considerations that 
weighed heavily in the determination to extend the period for 
registration for transfer, sir?
A I don't remember. I think the reason for it, as I
recall, the reason for it was that we were desegregating 
three more grades and they had to have some time to regis­
ter and that was the main reason for doing it. It's pos­
sible that there was a holiday in there and that could have



27

been a factor.
(11) Q I see. Now, you said, though, that pursuant
to the request or manifested interest of some of the parents 
to have their children transferred to the grades, seven, 
eight and nine, the Board of Education decided that it would 
go on and do it, was the need ever indicated officially to 
the Board of Education to your knowledge, Mr. Cordell, that 
there was a need of more days than five or eight or ten days 
for purposes of people expressing a choice as to where they 
wanted their children to go?
A i had never told them that because I had never had any
serious complaint about it.
Q I see. What is the explanation, may I ask, regarding
the five-day period? Is that seriously thought by the Board 
to be adequate time in which parents, all parents, in fact, 
would be able to effect transfers of their children?
A Well, since we had registration for this purpose, I 
have not had any complaints about this being too short a 
period of time. I have had possibly, I can recall maybe two 
or three instances where somebody said "I was out of town 
and what about it" but nobody complained to me about it being 
too short a period of time to do it.
Q Did Mr. Walters ever indicate in any official way what
wight have been the concerns of persons whom he came in touch 
with regarding the amount of time ---



28

(11-A) MR. WALTERS:

You don't have to answer anything that Mr. Walters 
might have said or done. It's confidential communication be- 
tween attorney and client, and you don’t have to answer.
MR. KING:

Q I certainly would agree with him, sir. That's quite
true and I'm not seeking here to force it. I am just —
MR. WALTERS:

I am instructing him not to answer anything that I might 
have said.
MR. KING:
Q I see. But did you have any notice otherwise that out­
side of the one or two that you indicated that might have 
said that "I was away during the five-day period."
A No, I don't recall any others.
Q All right.
A The one or two -- I don't remember who they were but I
do remember one or two who made that statement on the phone.
Q I see. And then yo ur categorical view was that five
days was sufficient?
A That was apparent to me.
Q How many children did you have transferring during the
period represented from April 5 through April 22 from pre­
viously all negro schools to white schools?
A Now, which year?



29

(12) Q This would be for the year 1966-67.
A Roughly, about 375, between 375 and 400.
Q Between 375 and 400.
A That's roughly, I don't recall exactly.
Q What was the number of applications for transfers
during the academic year antecedent to the 1966-67 year?
A About 200.
Q About 200. I see. Isn't it true, Mr. Cordell, that
there were significant numbers of parents who, that is, ne­
gro parents, who subsequent to the 22nd sought to effect 
transfers of their children from previous all negro schools?
A Not to me.
Q Are you saying that there —
A They didn't appeal to me.
Q Are you saying that there were none that appealed to
you?
A I don't recall any that did. I have numbers of problems
m  my business as superintendent --
Q I am asking you to the best of your recollection?
A I don't recall any.
Q I see. Now, how many negro students or let me put it
this way. How many students did you have attending previous- 
ly all negro schools in the academic year 1965-66?
A I think it was 178.
Q 178. Well —



30

A 1965-66?
Q I asked how many did yDu have attending -- how many
students did you have attending during 1965-66 previously 
all negro schools? How many students? Apparently, you did 
not understand my question.
A Oh, you mean —
Q The enrollment?
A About 8,000.
Q About 8,000, I see.
A Now, let's see. I think that's right, about eight or
nine thousand. I don't remember the exact number.
Q And how many white students did you have attending pre­
viously all white schools in the system for 1965-66?
A Around thirteen or fourteen thousand.
Q Around thirteen or fourteen thousand. Now, of that
number of 13,000 or 14,000 attending the previously all white 
schools, how many of those were negro -- for '65-66?

A 178
Q 178. And it is your testimony —
A Included in that -- 1 have here 245 for 1965-66.
Q Well, is that simply applications as distinguishable
from actual enrollment? A hundred and seventy-three were 
actually enrolled, is that correct?
(14) A My original figure didn't include the Albany
Area Vocational Technical School.



31

Q But 173 —
A I think it was 178 enrolled in one period. I don’t 
recall —  that's not the total enrollment but at one time 
that was the number. It fluctuates from time to time - it 
has —  I don't know why —  but possibly one number was those 
that registered and the other was the enrollment but there 
was a total of 245 who requested to be enrolled.
Q I see and of that number how many did actually matri­
culate?
A Well, I don't have that figure, actually.
Q You don't, I see.
A But the rough figure was around 200 exclusive of the 
Vocational Technical School.
Q Exclusive of that, is that correct?
A And they had thirty there.
Q Now, can you tell me, Mr. Cordell, would you have any
objection or do you know of any objection that has been or 
would be registered on the part of the Board of Education 
regarding an extension of the five-day period which has been, 
as a matter of policy, adhered to by the Board of Education 
as a period for registering?
A Actually, we had ten days in 1956, which would mean, I 
Presume, that there would be no objection if it is (15) neces­
sary to deal with a problem -- we did extend it when it was 
necessary.



32

Q Would you indicate the time that the office was held 
open —  Oh, I see. It's indicated here, is it not, that is, 
from 8:30 until 5:00 P.M., is that correct?
A. That's right.
Q Mr. Cordell, how long have you lived in the Dougherty
County community?
A Twenty odd years.
Q Twenty odd years. Of that period of time you have 
been made familiar with the fact that many of the persons 
of the negro community are hired as domestics and constitute 
generally the laboring class of people of this community, 
you are aware of that, are you not?
A yes.
Q You are also aware, are you not, sir, that many of 
them do not get off at or before 4:30 or 5:00 P.M.?
A Yes, I presume that's so.
Q It was requisite, was it not, that eigher a parent or
a relative accompany these transferees?
A Yes.

* * * * * * * *

(33) Q I see. Now, I am interested in knowing, Mr.
Cordell, the names of academic as well as extracurricular so­
cieties that are officially recognized by the Albany High 
School?
A I'm not familiar with those.



33

Q You aren't? I see. I ask you, sir, whether or not you 
as the Superintendent know that there are such organizations? 
A Yes, I know that there are.
Q I ask you, sir, isn't it true that these organizations 
have, that is, organizations which are recognized by the 
Albany High School, have excluded negroes, negro students, 
from membership in them?
A No, I don't know that.
Q You don't know that. You will not deny that?
A No, I wouldn't deny it and I wouldn't affirm it because
I don't know.
Q I see. But Mr. McNabb would know?
(34) A Yes.
Q May I inquire of you this. What is the position of the
Board of Education, if any, you are aware of, regarding the
recognition of academic and extracurricular societies on the 
school campus which maintain or have practiced and currently 
practice discrimination in membership based upon race?
A That's never been — ■ the problem has never come to the 
Board or ever come to me actually.
Q Are you in a position, based upon the question posed, 
to administratively indicate what your position is?
A I don't think there'd be any discrimination on a racial
basis whatsoever. I think I could state that very positively. 
Q What is your statement, then?



34

A 1 don’t think that would be discrimination on purely
race •—
Q Do you think that there should be?
A I don't think there is on purely a racial basis.
Q Are you suggesting that maybe on a diluted basis there
might be?
A I don’t know of any basis, really.
Q I ask you, sir, isn't it true that many of these or­
ganizations give —  hold many of their activities and their 
meetings at the YMCA?
(35) A I don't know about that.
Q You don't know that they hold any of their meetings 
there?
A I understand maybe there are some connected with the Y
but I'm not familiar enough with it to know who does and who 
doesn't.
Q I see. You are familiar with the avowed practice and
publicized policy of the YMCA, are you not, sir?
A Yes.
Q And I ask you hypothetically, since you are not aware,
whether or not your position as the official administrator of 
the Board of Education would sanction or otherwise countenance 
academic societies or organizations recognized by the various 
high schools of the city whose meetings would be held in a 
racially exclusive context, such as that we've spoken of



35

relating to the local YMCA?
A Well, I don't think we could —  the clubs would do 
anything that would discriminate against, on anybody on a 
purely racial basis.
Q Now, Mr. Cordell, you keep saying "a purely racial 
basis" and, of course, this is presumably what we're talk­
ing about. We're talking about race. I think I posed the 
question not on academics, not on other factors, but on race. 
Now, what is implied by you in your persistent use of pure­
ly race —  I just want to be sure?
(36) MR. WALTERS:

Let me make this statement. I don't follow Counsel,
I don't know whether he's referring to a club or organization, 
frankly, that the members of the club or organization might 
control the membership or whether this is a club that or 
organization that is created as a result if a student makes 
A's and B's then: he's automatically in the club -- 
MR. KING:

No, it wouldn't make any difference in terms of the 
responsibility in Counsel's view of the Board of Education 
regarding the recognition on the part of the Board of Educa­
tion of any club that pursued a —
MR. WALTERS:

Well, I just ask you to make your questions clear.
MR. KING:

This is what it is addressing itself to, whether it's



36

based on academics that would exclude the cause of race or 
whether it's social and would exclude on basis of race.
MR. WALTERS:

Are you talking about whether membership is con- 
trolled by the students or are you talking about membership 
comes about as a recognition of something done in the school -- 
MR. KING:

It wouldn't make any difference —
MR. WALTERS:

Well, I'm just asking you what you're talking about.
(37) MR. KING:

I'm talking about both of them.
MR. WALTERS:

Let's clarify them one at a time and talk about one and 
then talk about the other one, so that the witness will un­
derstand the question.
MR. KING:
Q Well, we're talking about both of them. You understand
what I'm saying, Mr. Cordell?
.MR. WALTERS:

Unless he wants to designate what clubs he’s talking 
about, Mr. Dordell, I instruct you not to answer the ques­
tion. You can separate them and question him about them.
MR. KING:
Q I frame the question and ask you whether you



37

understand. We are talking about any clubs on the school 
campus sanctioned and otherwise recognized by the school it­
self that practice in terms of its membership racial dis­
crimination. Do you understand the question?
MR. WALTERS:

Mr. Cordell, I instruct you not to answer his question 
unless he wants to talk about and explain to you the type of 
organization he's talking about, that is, whether it's an 
organization that's in existence and membership is automatic 
by virtue of some achievement in school, whether it be an 
athletic achievement or some scholastic achievement or whether 
it's a club where membership is on the invitation basis from 
other students who control the operation of the club.
(38) MR. KING:
Q Would it make a difference in light —
A I'm not familiar with the whole area, actually. I don't
know enough about the area to answer the question. I don't 
administer the high school and I'm not familiar with this 
phase of it.
Q In light of what Counsel has explained, would it make
a difference to you in terms of your official posture in the 
situation? Would it make any difference in your judgment as 
to whether you would approve or disapprove the existence of 
such a club on the campus if it practiced racial discrimina­
tion?



38

A I still don't quite understand it but --
Q Did you understand my question?
A I don't think our policy would permit a club to se­
lect its members on purely a racial basis,, I don't think 
we could do that.
Q In other words, you are saying, sir, give them two
students of equal competence or certainly competence that 
would be equal to the other student, one being black and one 
being white, you are saying that there could be, in your 
view as Superintendent, no distinction in terms of their 
right to belong?
MR. WALTERS:

Again, Mr. Cordell, if he's talking about a club where 
achievement or activity in the school is the basis for ad- 
mission to the club, (39) or by invitation from the members 
of the club —
MR. KING:

Well, Jay, all I am saying is if it is done by race 
would it make a difference?
MR. WALTERS:

Well, I think — t- there are two types of clubs, one,
I would assume that there are honorary societies which award 
the basis of membership strictly on the basis of achievement,
scholastic achievement - 
MR. KING:

Scholastic achievement, right.



39

MR. WALTERS:
X would assume they've got an A Club out there for 

which the membership is strictly upon the awarding of a 
varsity athletic letter.
MR. KING:

Right.
MR. WALTERS:

I would assume that there are clubs out there that 
have been formed by students where invitations are extended 
to other students to become members of it wherein the Board 
of Education, the principals, or no one would have any con­
trol over who the students invite.
MR. KING:

I agree but the only thing is, Jay,the way the ques­
tion is framed adresses itself to —  even if the students 
~~ let us say, theoretically, the school had nothing to do 
with bringing this into the system, if the students them­
selves -- suppose you had a chapter of the Klu Klux Klan 
out there -- 
(40) MR. WALTERS:

And if they wanted them in there, I would say it’s all- 
right. Just like I would say it would be all right, if the 
colored students out there wanted to form a club for only 
colored students. I'm talking about the social activities 
which the students themselves control —



40

MR. KING:
I see.

MR. WALTERS:
Now, if we’re talking about clubs that are sponsored 

by the school that are awarded on the basis of achievement, 
this, I say, .Mr. Cordell is in a position to answer and I 
just want you to distinguish the type club you are talking 
about.
MR. KING:

Well, we know what your position is now. You have in­
dicated what your position is and I think that he's quite 
competent to indicate what his position is. I am asking him 
whether it would make a difference. Certainly, he under­
stands the distinction you have made and I want to know 
whether he, as the Administrator of the Schools, in his 
judgment,this, would this make any difference in terms of 
what organizations that practice racial discrimination the 
School Board would be willing or the Superintendent or the 
School Board generally would be willing to countenance or 
approve, this is what I'm asking. Would it make any differ­
ence?
(41) A Well, in an invitation, say, if it's on an in­
vitation basis, I have had mothers of many white children 
call me and say she is very disturbed because her child 
didn’t get an invitation to a club so --



41

Q Certainly, we know that it wouldn’t be done on race
under those circumstances, is that right, Mr. Cordell?
A Well, not exclusively, though, because —
Q Oh, we certainly know that it would not be on race, 
because this is a white kid, wasn't it, the parents who 
called? We surely know that it wasn't race involved, isn't 
that right, Mr. Cordell?
A That's right.
Q Well, I am talking about race. This is what I'm talking 
about. I'm not talking about whether you have a very per- 
sonable and winsome personality, whether you smell bad or 
whether you smell like a flower, I'm talking about race.
This is what I'm talking about and this is a very simple 
question, as I view it. Would it make any difference to you 
—  I don't care whether it was social and created by the 
children themselves —  what would be the official position 
of the School Board if race was a predicate upon which kids 
were permitted to belong?
A if that was the sole basis for it, I don't think we
could defend it.
Q Then, it is your position that you could not (42)

countenance it?
A Yes.
Q This is all I was asking. Nobody is talking about
whether you smell like a flower or you smell like a polecat.



42

We are talking about race here. Now, Mr. Cordell, going on 
a bit further, in addressing yourself to our teachers, now, 
calling your attention to the teacher's list that you have 
brought to this hearing for the academic year 1964 and 1965, 
would you identify that, please?
MR. WALTERS:

Do you have copies of these?
MR. CORDELL:

I will have to have those back.
MR. KING:

Well, we have no objection, of course, we wouldn't even 
want her to necessarily have them in her custody.
MR. WALTERS:

I thought you were going to introduce them in evidence 
and I was going to say you'll have to make copies.
MR. KING:

Yes, we will be quite agreeable to doing. We don't 
have to have the —
MR. WALTERS:

All right, I just want it understood that they don't 
leave Mr. Cordell's -—
MR. KING:

No, we have no objection.
MR. KING:
Q Now, Mr. Cordell, I submit to you what has been



43

identified as P—3, and X ask you whether or not this compila­
tion -- this is a compilation of teachers who (43) are em­
ployed by the Dougherty County Board of Education —  do you 
have any independent recollection of their total number, sir? 
A Not the exact number, there are about 950.
Q And in this particular volume which has been identified
ad P~3,you have them listed consistent with the schools in 
which they teach, is that correct?
A Yes.

Q That is, Albany High being first and so on until we 
have included every school, is that correct, sir?
A That's right.
Q Now, P-3 is a compilation of all of the teachers, is
that correct? That is, of the system?
A That's right.
Q And I call your attention to Albany High, specifically,
and ask you out of the names and addresses which have been 
listed here, are there persons, any of whom are members of 
the negro race?
A Yes.
Q I see. And calling your attention to those that are
listed for Monroe High School I ask you whether or not any 
°f the names and addresses listed are those who are mem­
bers of the white race?
A No.



44

Q I ask you ultimately, sir, whether or not any of the
schools of the system for the academic year 1964-65 had (44) 
white teachers working at any previously all negro schools?
A No.

Q And, conversely, any negro teachers working at any pre­
viously all white schools?
A No.
Q Calling your attention to what has been identified as
P-4 and styled "Teacher's List for 1965-66", I ask you 
whether or not this volume is similarly set up to P-3, sir?
A It is.
Q And calling your attention to the teachers listed un­
der Albany High, I ask you whether or not any of those 
teachers are members of the negro race?
A No.
Q All of them are members of the white race?
A Yes.
Q I call your attention to Monroe High; I ask you wheth­
er any of the teachers there are members of the white race?
A No.
Q I am asking you generally about the system as a whole,
whether there are any negro teachers who taught at any of the 
schools of the system for th academic year 1965-66 that 
were members of the negro race that taught at previously all 
white schools?



45

(45) A No.

Q And, conversely, were there any white teachers who 
taught for the academic year 1965-66 at previously all 
negro schools?
A No.

Q I ask you, sir, do you have the list for the academic 
year 1966-67?
A No, I don't have it.
Q And when is that list made up, sir?
A The first of September.
Q The first of September. Calling your attention to con­
tracts which were let by the Board of Education, isn't it 
true, sir, that these contracts are let in the spring of the 
year antecedent of the commencement of the coning academic 
year?

A Some of them are and some of them are not. They are let 
as we fill the various positions.
Q I see. Is it your testimony that a teacher who is
teaching presently for the Board of Education, that is, du- 
rm g  the time leading up to the renewal of contracts, does 
n°t, as a matter of procedure, have her contract let during 
the spring of the year?
A Yes.
Q So when you say that not all of them are let at that 
time, you simply mean those persons who would be coming



46

(46) new to the system and that sort of thing?
A They get a contract if they remain in the system and
if they leave, then, of course,they don't*
Q Yes, I am asking you —
A And we let the others as they come in during the in­
terim* They get contracts as they are employed.
Q And that's what you were making reference to?
A Yes*
Q Now, isn't it true that those contracts also make ref­
erence to the grade and school?
A The grade and the school?
Q Yes.
A Yes.
Q I ask you how many teachers who were hired for the
academic year 1965-66 did not have contracts re-let for the
year 1966-67?
A State that question again*
Q How many --
A How many resigned -- is that what you are saying?
Q How many resigned or otherwise were fired?
A I don't know the number. No, 1 doAt know the number
Q Was it —
A As I recall,
Q Was it few or many?
(47) A There were none that I know of that didn 't



47

voluntarily resign.
Q No, I’m not trying to ascertain how they left the sys­
tem. I want to know if there were few or many who did not 
have contracts re-let for the year 1966-67?
A Well, there was a good large number.
Q I see. However, how many teachers remained to be 
hired in order to complete your complement?
A I anv not sure, I think about 75.
Q About 75?
A I think so, possibly more.
Q I see. Now, has the complement of teachers for the
Dougherty County system been increased from the roughly 900 
and something for the coming year?
A There has been some increase. I don't know the exact 
number but I'm not —  there has been some increase, yes, 
some small increase.
Q Some small increase. Then I ask you of the number
less the 75 you speculate remained to be employed, how many 
of the negro teachers, if any, have been assigned to pre­
viously all white schools?
A We don't assign teachers to the school -- 
Q Well, I withdraw the question, sir --
^ Well, there are none that have been assigned, but there
are none that have been assigned anywhere. But (48) they 
have —  if they were in a school and requested to stay there,



48

they stayed, and if they came into the system, then they ap­
plied for a particular position and they were given a con­
tract for that position.
Q I see. Then, have any negro teachers applied for or
been assigned to or otherwise employed by the Board of Edu­
cation to work as teachers in any of the previously all 
white schools of the system?
A No.
MR. WALTERS:

Mr. Cordell, just a minute. That’s a four-pronged 
question which he's asking. If you want to ask a question, 
ask applied, assigned or transferred, ask him a question 
that can be answered ■—  no four-pronged questions. You don't 
have to answer a question like —
MR. KING:

Well, notwithstanding, I want the record clear, not­
withstanding the fact that Mr. Cordell did answer it, it 
seems in the judgment of opposing Counsel that Mr. Cordell 
is not competent to answer it. Your response to the ques­
tion -- 
MR. WALTERS:

Let the record show that Mr. Cordell has already 
stated that teachers are not assigned. He asked if any ap­
plied, if any were assigned, now in fairness to a witness, 
ask a question —  you can ask him if any applied to teach; you



49

can ask himif they (49) assigned any; you can ask him if 
any were transferred, but ask the questions one at a time in 
the proper manner. You know how to ask a question.
MR. KING:
Q For the coming year 1966-67 are any negro teachers to 
teach at any of the previously all white schools? That is, 
of the Dougherty County School system.
A No
Q I ask you whether or not any white teachers are to, for 
the academic year 1966-67, teach or, better still, are to 
be employed to teach by the Board of Education at any pre-' 
viously all negro schools?
A No.
Q Can you explain why, sir?
A Well, I have no explanation except that negro teachers 
have been employed to teach in the previously all negro 
schools and white teachers have been employed to teach in the 
previously all white schools.
Q Has this ever been discussed by the Board of Education?
A Yes.
Q And i s  t h i s  r e f l e c t i v e  o f  th e  a t t i t u d e  o f  th e  Board
your pronouncement o f  w hat h a s  been  t h e  p r e v io u s  policy?
A The Board has discussed it and talked about it and have 
had some concern about it but -- 
Q But they have done nothing?



50

(50) A They have taken no official action at this
point*
Q I see. Has there been any suggestion of taking any
action on it at all?
A We discussed it and I presume there was a certain
amount of suggested action when you discuss a thing but there 
has been no official action.
Q Calling your attention to the -
MR. WALTERS:

Now, I am not trying to hurry you but I am going to 
have to leave here at five and we will just have to continue 
again in the morning if it goes after that because I have an 
engagement at 5:00 that I've got to keep.
MR. KING:

Thank you for advising me, Counsel.
MR. KING:
Q Calling your attention to other staffs -- maybe we need
to strike that — - do you make a distinction, Mr, Cordell, in 
the characterization of employees that are employed by the 
Board of Education, that is, to say, faculty as distinguished 
from staff employees?
A Well, of course,when you say staff, that includes
everybody,
Q Is that right?
A There is — ■ of course, you have different kinds,



51

teaching staff, principal staff and general administration 
staff --
Q Well, I want to know the language that is used (51) if 
there is any, I would assume there would be, between a bus 
driver, let's say, and a teacher. I would assume there must 
be a distinguishable characterization between the two em­
ployees. What, if any, is there? How do you —
A Well, if he's a bus driver, you call him a bus driver.
If he's a teacher, you call him a teacher. And that's all 
I know. The whole business makes up the general staff.
Q Then, are there any aspects of employment within the 
Board of Education or I should say is there any level within 
the Board of Education in terms of employees employed by it 
where you do have integration?
A Yes, we have an integrated staff at Reading Clinic that, 
we have. And you say in the matter of employment?
Q Yes.
A We employed —  we have a group employed there as an
integrated group of people,
Q But that is not a part of the school system in the sense 
°f being a grade between first and twelfth, is it, sir?
A There are not grades in it? this is for special problems.
Q I see -- special problems.
^ And they come from all of the schools.
(52) Q But outside of this, this is the only integration



52

that you have in employment, is that correct?
A That's right.
Q And how recent has it been since that came into ex­
istence?
A During the last year, during the last school year*
Q I see. And you are saying that you have white teach­
ers that work in this clinic — - 
A Yes.
Q And you have negroes who work in this clinic?
A Yes.
Q How many whites work in the clinic, sir?
A I think there are three, altogether the personnel in­
volved there are nine whites and 18 negroes in the Reading 
Clinic. That's the entire staff.
Q I see. Now, would you indicate whether or not all
eighteen of the negroes are teachers?
A No, they are not all teachers.
Q How many are teachers?
A Strictly teachers —  now, we enter an area, you see, we
just said we didn't have grades. We have one negro secretary 
that I know about. I think we have two negro speech thera­
pists —  I don't know whether you would call them teachers or
not. I think we --  this is a specialized area but as (53)
regular classroom teachers — ■
Q In other words, this is remedial in nature --



53

A It's for children who have special problems? they are 
brought into this clinic.
Q So you say that you had two negroes reading thera­
pists?
A Speech therapists -- I'm not familiar with the exact 
number in each category but that's the total number and I'm 
not familiar with what each person does.
Q I see. Do white and negro children attend?
A Yes.
Q All right. Isn't it true that whites take care of the 
requirements or needs of the white youngsters and negroes 
take care of the needs of the negro youngsters?
A I don't think that's true.
Q Do you know?
A I think I can say positively that is not so. I have 
seen different arrangements -- I have seen white teachers 
teaching negro children and I’ve seen negro teachers teach­
ing white children.
Q All right. Now, where is this clinic, sir?
 ̂ It's on West Oglethorpe. I don't recall the street
number.
MR. WALTERS:

It's the old hosiery mill.
Q Is that right? I wondered about that. I see (54) Now,
how long has it been there?



54

A It was established during the past school year,
Q All right. Now, ashing you, sir, with reference to
student teachers —  students are used, student teachers 
are used in the system, are they not, sir? Where they do 
their practice teaching?
A Yes.
Q And this would be both?
A On a limited basis — - I don’t know the number we have 
but we have some, yes.
Q Both black and white?
A Yes.
Q Is it true, sir, that white practice teachers are
limited to teaching in the previously all white schools and 
negro practice teachers are limited to teaching in previous­
ly all negro schools?
A Yes.
Q What is the explanation for that?
A Well, it's just that the negro teachers —  in the first
place, I don't think we've had any requests to do it other- 
wise.
Q And that is your explanation, sir?
A That's one explanation. There has been no issue made
of it and it has been done that way and we have continued 
to do it that way.
(55) Q I see. It has been a matter of custom and



55

practice, is that right?
A Yes.
Q You spoke a moment ago about seventy-five vacancies 
in the school system. I believe this was the estimate —
A Generally or roughly, that's the number.
Q I see. Were there any of these white?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember off-hand what areas they were in in 
the white schools?
A No, I don't,
Q You don't. How many of these -- these are the seventy- 
five vacancies which yet remain to be filled, is that right?
A No, that was the number, the general number for the 
year.
Q Oh, you are saying that all of them have been filled?
A Yes, up to this date. I believe as of today they have.
Q In other words, there are no other vacancies?
A That's right.
Q Calling your attention to the method used by the Board 
of Education for purposes of recruitment of teachers (56) 
for employment, what is the method used?
A Well, we send some people to colleges to find students 
&nd we receive applications from interested people, and from 
fo°se two sources we select the people who teach.
Q What colleges do you customarily send people?



56

A I'm not sure -- I don’t do it myself but we go to any
college, over the period of years we go to any college that 
we think might have a person who can fill a need we have,
MR. KING:

All right. I don't think I have any further questions, 
Mr. Cordell. Thank you very kindly.

* * * * * * * * * *
(81) HERBERT PRESTON HALEY
Witness, called by the Plaintiffs, being first duly sworn, 
testified on

CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. KING:
Q Would you state your full name for the record, Mr.
Haley?
A Herbert Preston Haley.
Q Mr. Haley, would you indicate what, if any, official
function you have with the Dougherty County Board of Educa­
tion?
A I am a member of the Board and the president of it.
Q How long have you served in the first of the capacities
indicated by you?
A I would have to go to the record, it's been several
years.
Q It’s been several years and by several you indicate
that it exceeds three?



57

A Yes, more than six.
Q More than six and as the president you have functioned 
how long?

A Here, again, it's a matter of the record, possibly, 
maybe, this is the third year, I forget. This is a matter 
of the record.

Q Yes, and to the best of your recollection it's (82) about 
three. I want to ask you whether or not you remember the res­
ponses given by Mr. Cordell relevant to the fact that no negro 
teachers have been employed to work by the Board of Education 
in previously all white schools nor have white teachers been 
employed to work by the Board in previously all negro schools. 
You do indicate that this is consonant with what presently 
is the policy of the Dougherty Board of Education, is that 
correct, sir?
A To the best of my knowledge there are no white teach- 
ers teaching in formerly all negro schools nor conversely.
Q I said this is consonant with what you know the 
official position of the Doughtery County Board of Education 
is, is that correct, sir?
" You are leading me on.
Q Well, I am, yes sir, I am simply asking for an affirm™
stion or a denial?
^ I will simply say that there has been no application 
to my knowledge that would fall in either of these categories.



58

Q I believe your resolutions indicated that that was
germane to accomplishing this,
A I don't think there is anything in the Minutes that 
would indicate that.
Q Is there anything elsewhere that would officially in-
dicate that this is germane or relevant as a condition of 
negroes either working in previously all white schools or 
white teachers working in previously all negro schools?
A This has simply been a matter of custom,
Q Well, then would you answer the question, sir?
A State the question again.
Q I say, is there anything that makes this a relevant
factor, the one that you brought up that nobody made applica- 
tion, in the practice of the Board of Education or in any of 
its minutes or resolutions? Has this been discussed as a 
relevant consideration, the fact that the only reason that 
we are not using negroes indiscriminately or whites indis­
criminately in the Board for this unitary system of educa­
tion is because nobody applied, is that what you are saying?
A It has not been put in the framework that you just
placed it.
Q This is what I am desirous of doing. Has this been dis­
cussed as a relevant situation, has it officially been indi­
cated to you relevant in the determination of the —  of 
having or letting negroes work indiscriminately at the schools



59

within the system and, conversely, whites indiscriminately 
at schools within the system?
A As I said, the issue has never been raised in the man- 
ner that you are not presenting it.
(84) Q Well, that doesn't keep you from responding,
sir?

A I don't think any official action has been taken along 
these lines. It was more of a matter of comment.
Q Then why did you make it, saying that nobody had ap­
plied? what was the relevancy of that? I would like to 
respectfully solicit a response?
A To an extent I simply mean to indicate that the issue 
has not arisen to this particular point. And that's as far 
as I care to go.
Q That's as far as you care to go? What do you mean by 
that, sir?

^ I don't know how to express anything other than that..
Q You said the issue —  what issue, sir?
h The one which you just stated in this context. Frankly, 
1 don't know how to answer your question.
Q Is the only explanation that you give as President of 
the Board, sir, attributable to why negroes have not been em­
ployed on a basis that would permit them to work indiscri- 
minately at the various schools of the system and, converse­
ly/ whites as well, is that neither white nor black have made



60

application for transfer, is that it?
A This is an involved question. I simply made a s Ample
statement --
(85) Q Well, I am asking you another one, sir —
MR. WALTERS:

You don't have to stand up in the witness' lap, Mr. King, 
MR. KING:

I want the record to be eminently clear that I am not 
standing in the witness' lap.
MR. WALTERS:

Well, you are sitting in his lap. You can move away 
from the witness to the extent that you would not —
MR. KING:

I want the record to be eminently clear that I am in 
the same position I was in when I was talking to Mr„ Cordell 
and the other witness here.
MR,. WALTERS:

Let the record show that Mr. Cordell and the other wit­
ness were a good distance further from him. I don't mind 
you questioning the witness —
MR. KING:
Q (To witness) Is my presence in this proximity to you
repugnant?
MR. HALEY: !
A Your presence is not. The framing of the questions



61

Q Thank you very kindly, sir. I assume that the comment 
cf opposing counsel becomes irrelevant.
A Let's see if I can get at what you're asking.
Q I simply wanted you to explain —  you can just forget
about anything else that I asked you. Will you indicate
(86) to me, sir, as the President of the Board of Education 
of Dougherty County what, if any, is the explanation why no 
negroes have been employed to work as teachers in previously 
all white schools and, conversely, no whites have been em­
ployed to work in previously all negro schools of the sys­
tem of education that we have here in Dougherty County?
A This is a more answerable question. I feel that the 
quality of education afforded by the schools of our county 
is the principal thing with which the Board should concern 
itself.
Q Well, now, are you speaking individually?
MR. WALTERS:

Let him finish. Finish your answer, Mr. Haley.
THE WITNESS: ';
A The conditions under which pupil and teacher sit and 
work together have a great deal to do with this, the matter 
°f communication, this matter of learning, this matter of 
receptiveness and also the matter of imparting knowledge, 
what it takes to stimulate and awaken a mind is an important

bothers me.



62

thing. In Dougherty County during the last several years 
there has been a good deal of stress in the school system 
and the Board has addressed itself primarily to the propo­
sition that it is maintaining the quality of education as 
its, you know, prime concern. The court, I am speaking of 
this Circuit Court o f  Appeals,,,took under the advisement the 
question o f  desegregating the teaching staff (87) and it 
reserved comment on this matter to a future date. Members 
of the Board o f  Education individually ha ve certainly con­
cerned themselves with this matter. They have thought, about 
it, they have talked about it, and they have read various news­
papers and periodicals on this subject. And, still at this 
point, the Board is endeavoring to keep the educational pro­
cess on an even keel. They have tried to be in tune with the 
general situation in this last year, for example, speeding up 
by one year the schedule of which the classes would be de­
segregated --
Q Well, this is hardly responsive to the question we are
talking about, the explanation about the teachers —
•MR. WALTERS:

Go right ahead, Mr. Haley.
Q Now, --
MR. WALTERS:

Are you through, Mr. Haley?
A I think I would sum this up by saying that the attention



63

of the Board at this point has really addressed itself pri- 
marily to the maintenance of order and some degree of academic 
efficiency in the teaching that is in the system,
Q All right. Now,
A We have proceeded as fast as we thought we prudently 
could with the desegregation of the Dougherty County School 
System and we feel that our actions have been consonant with 
the order of the court.
Q I see. And that is since the court did not deal (88) 
at the time you were enjoined as a body from further mainte­
nance of segregation in education, because the court did not 
elect to deal at that time with desegregation of staff, 
teaching staff, you are suggesting by your concluding remark 
that you are being consonant with the decree of the court 
that this is explanatory of that consistency or being conso­
nant with the court's dictate, is that correct?
A Pretty much to this effect, yes.
Q Now, you made reference to there being a lot of 
stress in Dougherty County education, what did you mean by 
that, sir?
^ I think this needs no elaboration.
Q Well, I am asking you for it, sir?
^ You've lived here; I've lived here. You work here; I 
w°nk here. You listen here; so do I,
Q Well, I am more interested for the edification of court



64

and those who are responsible for making some determination 
in knowing what you mean by stress?
A I think about the same thing Webster means, an emo­
tional area.
Q Are you refusing to answer, sir?
A I am saying that I think I have given a sufficient
answer.
Q Well, I am asking you what did you mean?
Ml. WALTERS:

If you think your answer is (89) sufficient, Mr. Haley, 
you don't have to further elaborate on it.
THE WITNESS:
A I feel that it is adequate.
Q All right, Mr. Haley, then your reaction is that of re­
fusing to respond to my question, is that correct?
MR. WALTERS:

I think his reaction is that he has sufficiently 
answered the question.
THE WITNESS:
A I have answered the question, I think.
MR. KING:
Q I take it that you will agree that you were subpoenaed
here for the purpose of answering my questions, you do agree 
that this is why you've come to this place?
A I don't know a great deal about legal procedures and



65

the delicacy and what not but I think I have answered your 
question.
Q I would simply like to know whether you would agree 
that you've come to this place today for the purpose of 
answering my questions?
A I presume so, yes.
Q And I have indicated to you that I would like a 
response to it and your response is that you feel that you 
have answered it, is that correct?
A Yes, that's right.,,,
Q Now, you went on to give a description of the (90) Board 
of Education being that of quality education, I believe you 
characterized this and in that regard you made reference to' 
the necessity of preserving the relations between students 
and teachers. Do you remember this?
A Yes.
Q And this need that you spoke of reflects, does it not,
tie need, in your own view and not presumably expressed by the 
Board of preserving the educational system much as it is in 
relationship to white teachers teaching white children and 
negro teachers teaching negro children?
A At this point in the sociological evolution of events,
I think so, yes.
Q And that is reflective of your Board?
A You asked me for my view and I am speaking for myself.



66

Q You are he re today as the official representative of 
■foe Board, are you not, sir?
A I am,

Q These attitudes are reflected in that capacity, are 
they not?
A I don't presume to speak for the Board man for man,
Q But -would you suggest that a majority prevails?
A Like I tried to explain in the beginning on this thing,
we have not made any official approach to this problem,
(51) Q I believe that you did indicate, did you not,
sir, that "we have thought about it; we've read the news­
papers about it; we have talked about it". Now, these are 
presumed to be your exact words, isn't that true?
A That's true but you are now asking me for what the
Board would vote on the issue,
Q I am not asking you that at all --
A This is the way I constructed your questions as asking,
Q 1 see. Then people are —  this is quite a concession
on your part, Mr, Haley, to acknowledge that words are sub­
ject to be construed and there was perhaps some later re­
flection on your part, some efficacy in my desire to know 
what you meant by stress but, be that as it may, go right on 
and tell me about your having said "they thought about it; 
they talked about it; they read about it; and they've dis­
cussed it," Now, what they talked about what they had



67

discussed, what they had read, what they had said about, it, 
was it reflected at your meetings, sir?
A No, these were informal things.
Q I see. And this is the basis upon which these re­
flections which you have made today are made, is that correct? 
A That's right.
Q I remember hearing you say finally, sir, that (92) it 
has been the desire of the Board of Education to keep the edu­
cational processes on an even keel. This, too, would be con­
sonant with the wisdom in your judgment which you have indi­
cated of maintaining this policy of whites, of white teachers 
and white students and black teachers and black students?
A I said at this point in time.
Q Yes, granted, but I said this was —
A I didn't say forever, which is a connotation I hear you
reading in.
Q I appreciate your sensitivity as to what is valid.
MR. WALTERS:

Just ask him a question without making side remarks.
MR. KING:

You don't have to tell me how —
MR. WALTERS:

I am —  I will tell you. If you want to question this 
witness, you ■—
MR. KING:

You can take him away but don't be telling me how to



68

ask a question.
MR. WALTERS:

I am telling you now if you want to ask him —
MR. KING:

I want you to know that so far as I am concerned your 
instructional suggestions are persona awry. Please be ad­
vised of that.
MR. WALTERS:

Just ask him questions.
(93) Q Now, finally, Mr. Haley, I would ask you, based
upon the discussion that you had made or given with refer­
ence to the Fifth Circuit's apparent present consideration 
of the problem of integration of faculty, is this the predi­
cate upon which you base your reliance in determining whether 
or not you will or will not do anything affirmative to inte­
grate the teaching staff of this system?
A I simply say to this point --
Q Did you understand the question, sir?
A I'm trying to answer it.
Q Well, I think it really requires nothing more than a
yes or no answer. Then you can explain it all you want. All 
I want to do is to get —  I think that's all it requires, a 
yes or no answer. You can explain it -- just answer the ques­
tion.
A My answer to that would be no.



69

Q All right. You are saying -- 
MR. WALTERS:

Let him make any explanation he wants to, Mr. King.
MR. KING:

Yes, I quite agree and I have no objection.
THE WITNESS: ' -
A I will say that this circuit has not forbidden us to 
do this. They have not ordered us to. At this point in time 
it does not appear to be prudent of the applications that 
have come in to do this.
(94) q I see. Then you have received applications?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Then, what did you mean about the applications that 
have come in?
A Well, perhaps, out of the situations which have arisen
would be another way to say it.
Q What are those?
A Well, I simply say that there has never been proposed 
that a particular person teach a particular subject cross 
racially in a particular school.
Q By the Board? You say it has never been proposed, 
hy the Board?
^ By the Board.
Q You said that it would not be prudent in your judg­
ment, why, sir?



70

A For the simple reason that all matters related to the
functioning of the school and public opinion, this seems to 
be about the most sensitive of all.
Q I see.
MR. WALTERS:

Excuse me, how much longer are you going to be?
MR. KING:

I'm going to be leaving right now.
MR. WALTERS:

Because I have an engagement.
MR. KING:

I agree. As a matter of fact, you are over your time 
already.
(95) MR. KING:
Q And this is the basis upon which the Board has decided
that it would be non-prudent at this time?
A Be non-prudent?
Q Yes, you said it would be non-prudent to integrate —
A Wait a minute.
Q This is what I thought you said. I'm sorry, sir, if I
misunderstood you.
A I am just saying the Board as a present course thinks
it is pursuing a more prudent course.
Q Yes, and I am saying then you are saying that because
of the reasons you have given here it would be in the Board's



71

judgment non-prudent to integrate the staff, is that cor­
rect? This is all I am saying.
A This is another way of saying it.
Q Yes, but recognizing that you are one of the sons
of Princeton, I would assume this is no material hurdle 
for you to grapple with?
A I had to hear it twice to be sure I understood it.
Q All right. But, now, being assured that you did un­
derstand it, for these reasons, then, the Board would con­
sider it non-prudent, is that right? The reasons that you 
have enumerated?
A This is my opinion.
(96) q And you do reflect the opinion's of the Board,
I take it?
A I think this is so.
Q Did you say you think that is so?

I think this is so. If it were to come to a vote, I 
think this would be the answer.
Q All right, just one final question. I want to ask 
you, sir, the extension of time, the Board's position on 
the extension of time, has the Board had any occasion to 
consider the extension of time in terms of giving notice, 
that is, from the five days that have traditionally been 
Pursued? We do take knowledge of the fact that there were 
two notices given back in April.



72

A My recollection is that the plans call for notice being
given and registration occurring, rather registration occur­
ring, in the first week of April.
Q Your recollection is valid but hardly relevant to the 
question that I directed to you. What, if any, position has 
the Board taken regarding the possible extension of time from 
the traditional five-day period?
A I hadn't finished. In the spring just passed the Board
did extend the period. My recollection is that some holiday 
occurred during this period and we felt that because of this 
someone might not have adequate time and we did extend the 
period last year. I do not recall what holiday (97) it was 
or what the circumstances were but I think the feeling of the 
Board was that particular first week in April would not 
afford the opportunity which should be afforded.
Q Well, I had reference --
A And next year I don't know what the first week in April
is.
Q But this is the only possible concern so far as an ex­
tension is concerned, that the Board in inclined at this 
point to address itself in the way of possible extension of 
time, is that correct?
A My recollection is that last year's action was a one­
time thing and this coming spring we will look at it again.
Q But so far as the year 1966 and 1967, there is no



73

disposition to your knowledge to consider a further exten­
sion of time?
A Here again the question has not come up,
Q I see. That is, before the Board,
A That's right.
MR. KING:

That's all. Thank you very kindly.
Deposition Concluded: 5:15 P.M. August 4, 1966

*«.oQo...
* * * * *

NOTE: PORTION OF RECORD OMITTED -
FILED IN ORIGINAL FORM

* * * * *

...oOo...
MEMORANDUM OPINION AND ORDER ON PLAINTIFF'S 
_________MOTION FOR FURTHER RELIEF

(Number and title omitted) (Filed: Aug. 22, 1966)
By order of this Court (entered pursuant to mandate of

the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit) the
Dougherty County Board of Education began desegregation of the
public school system of Dougherty County, Georgia in September,
!964. Under the plan required to be adopted by the Court's
order the desegregation of all grades in the public schools
°f Dougherty County was to be accomplished with the beginning
°f the school term in September, 1967, Gaines, et;■ al, v,
Dougherty County Board of Education, et. al„, 344 F, 2d 983.



74

This Court retained jurisdiction of the cause for the grant-, 
ing of such further relief and the entry of such further 
orders as might be found necessary from time to time* Coun­
sel for the Plaintiffs have now filed a motion for further 
relief and hearing with respect to the matter has been held 
by the Court.

In support of their prayers for further relief Counsel 
for the Plaintiffs make various criticisms of the manner in 
which the schools are being administered.^ We will deal with 
all of the questions raised by Counsel during the course of 
the hearing, although some of them appear to the Court to 
be frivolous.

Under the Court's previous order the School Board was 
required to give timely notice to parents in the community 
concerning how they could go about requesting a transfer 
either to a previously all-white school or previously all-Ne­
gro school. Pursuant to this order, in anticipation of the

The Court uses the phrase "Counsel for the Plaintiffs" as 
distinguished from "Plaintiffs" for the reason that the 
evidence shows that none of the Plaintiffs in this case 
or their parents, nor any other Negro student in the 
schools nor their parents, have complained to the Sphool 
Board with regard to any of the criticisms set forth in 
the application for further relief, and the Court is 
further impressed by the fact that none of the Plaintiffs 
nor any other witness appeared at the time of hearing on 
this matter to testify in support of any of the criticisms 
made by Counsel.



75

beginning of the forthcoming school term 1966-67, the Board 
published a notice in all three of the newspapers wnich 
are published in the community, they being The Albany Herald, 
The Albany Journal, and The Southwest Georgian, this notice 
being in the nature of a display advertisement in bold type 
measuring 5 inches by 8 inches and stating as follows: 

I M P O R T A N T  S C H O O L  N O T I C E  
S C H O O L  R E G I S T R A T I O N  

MONDAY THROUGH FRIDAY 
April 4-8, 1966

Parents o f  a child entering the First Grade in 
S ep tem b er, 1966 shall register their child at the 
fo rm er all Negro school or the former all white school 
n e a r e s t ' t h e i r ' residence. V

All students now in school shall be assigned to 
schools without the necessity of registration, for the 
school year beginning in September, 1966 subject to 
the right of transfer as hereinafter set forth.

All students who will be in grades 2, 3, 4, 5,
6, 10, 11, and 12 during the school year beginning 
in September, 1966 shall have the right to request 
assignment to the former all Negro school or the 
former all white school nearest their residence.
All such request for assignments must be made at. 
the Administration Building of the Dougherty County



76

School System, 601 Flint Avenue, Albany, Georgia, 
and must be made in person by the students and each 
student must be accompanied by his or her parent or 
guardian.

Registration and requests for assignment shall 
be made during the week of April 4-8 between the 
hours of 8:30 a.m. and 5:00 p.m.

J. J. CORDELL
Superintendent of Education

This notice was published in The Albany Herald, which is a 
daily newspaper, two times, on March 27 and March 30, and it 
was published in The Albany Journal, which is a weekly news­
paper, on March 25, and in The Southwest Georgian, which is 
also a weekly newspaper, on April 3.

In addition, a mimeographed letter size copy of this 
notice was given to each child in the entire school system 
with instructions to take the notice home and give it to the 
child's parents. All parents in the community were thereby 
notified that the registration period for this purpose would 
be from April 4 through April 8 between the hours of 8:30 a„m. 
and 5:00 p.m.

Later the Board of Education decided to include grades 
seven, eight and nine, which are the Junior High School 
grades, in the desegregation plan for the forthcoming year 
and notice relative to making applications for transfer with 
respect to those grades was also published along with a



77

republication of a notice with regard to all the other 
grades dealt with by the previous notice. Notice of this 
additional period in which applications for transfer might 
be made was published in the three newspapers above men­
tioned by display advertisement measuring 5 inches by 8 in­
ches. Copies of this notice were also sent home by the 
children to be delivered to the parents from all of the 
schools in the school system. This notice which was pub­
lished and which was sent home to the parents read as fol­
lows :

I M P O R T A N T  S C H O O L  N O T I C E  
S C H O O L  R E G I S T R A T I O N  E X T E N D E D

MONDAY THROUGH FRIDAY 
April 18-22, 1966

Parents of a child entering the First Grade 
in September, 1966 shall register their child at the 
former all Negro school or the former all white 
school nearest their residence.

All students now in school shall be assigned to 
schools, without the necessity of registration, for 
the school year beginning in September, 1966 subject 
to the right of transfer as hereinafter set forth.

All students who will be in grades 2, 3, 4, 5, 
6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12 during the school year 
beginning in September, 1966 shall have the right to



78

request assignment to the former all Negro school 
or the former all white school nearest their resi­
dence. All such requests for assignments must be 
made at the Administration Building of the Dougherty 
County School System, 601 Flint Avenue, Albany,
Georgia and must be made in person by the students' 
and each student must be accompanied by his or her 
parent or guardian.

Registration and requests for assignment 
shall be made during the week of April 18-22 between 
the hours of 8:30 a.m. and 5:00 p„m.

J. J. CORDELL
Superintendent of Education

All parents in the community were thereby notified of a second 
registration period for this purpose from April 18 through 
April 22 between the hours of 8:30 a.m. and 5:00 p.m.

The registration period was at approximately the same 
time as the previous year and the Board never received any com­
plaints from any parent or any student in the previous year or 
this year that the time allowed for making applications for 
transfer was not known and was not adequate. The effective­
ness of the notices may be further judged by the fact that in
the school year 1965-66 there were 245 applications for trans­
fer and for the forthcoming year 1966-67 there were 629 ap­
plications for transfer.

Counsel for Plaintiffs complain that the notice given 
to the public was inadequate. The Court concludes from the



79

foregoing that the notice given by the Board to the public 
was not only adequate, but was more than adequate,,

The next criticism made by Counsel for the Plaintiffs 
is that some students who have heretofore transferred from 
the previously all-Negro high school, Monroe High School, to 
the previously all-white high school, Albany High School, 
have not been given as much credit at Albany High School for 
certain courses as had been given the student at Monroe High 
School. For instance„ the evidence shows that in the past 
Monroe High School has given students more credit for courses 
in physical education than are given students for the same 
course at Albany High School. So when these students have 
transferred to Albany High School they have been given the 
same credit as if they had taken the course at Albany High 
School which in this instance turned out to be less. How- 
ever, the evidence shows that this is not a matter of dis­
crimination because of race. Indeed, it is not a matter of 
discrimination at all for the same practice is followed with 
regard to students who transfer to Albany High School from 
other high schools both within the Dougherty County system 
and from outside the Dougherty County system. If the school 
administrators were required to give students transferring in­
to Albany High School more credit for such courses than is 
9iven to students already enrolled in Albany High School for 
the same course the administrators would be favoring the



80

transferring students and discriminating against those already 
tiere. The transferring student is not placed at any dis­
advantage. He is simply not accorded any advantage. He is 
placed on exactly the same basis as all other students at 
Albany High School. Incidentally, the evidence shows that 
the Board of Education has now adopted a new policy with re­
gard to all schools in the Dougherty County system whereby 
the same credit will be given for the same courses in all 
schools in the Dougherty County system, so that in the fu­
ture no questions with regard to transferring credits within 
the system can arise. The Court regards the criticism made 
by Counsel as being without merit in the first place, and 
even if it had merit it is rendered moot by the establishment 
of uniform credits within the system.

There are approximately 30 student clubs of one kind 
or another at Albany High School and Counsel for the Plain­
tiffs have raised questions with regard to some of them. Two 
of these clubs are the. Hi-Y Cliife-for. boys and the Tri-Hi-Y Club 
for girls. All girl students in the school are eligible for 
membership in the Tri-Hi-Y and all boy students are eligible 
for membership in the Hi-Y Club regardless of race, but it 
seems that no Negro student has joined either of these clubs. 
Although there is no evidence to support the contention, we 
gather that Counsel's complaint is that there might be Negro 
members of these clubs but. for the fact that they customarily



81

hold their meetings at the downtown YMCA and it is known that 
the downtown YMCA is a white organization. The school offi­
cials testified, however, that if any Negro student should be- 
come a member of either of those clubs and if the downtown 
YMCA indicated that it would not be permissible for the clubs 
to continue to hold their meetings at the downtown YMCA the 
clubs would then begin holding their meetings at the school, 
just as is done at Dougherty County High School, which is also 
a member of the system. The school officials testified that 
no Negro student has asked about joining either of these clubs 
nor has any student made any complaint to them with respect 
thereto. The School Board has no connection with nor control 
over the downtown YMCA.

Counsel for the Plaintiffs also complain that there are 
some "service” clubs at Albany High School which are sponsored 
by civic organizations, such as Kiwanis, Rotary, Civitan, and 
others, and that no Negro students are members of these service 
clubs, and Counsel ascribes this to the fact that the member­
ship of these downtown sponsoring civic clubs mentioned is ex­
clusively white. The evidence shows that the school authorities 
have nothing to do with who becomes members of these service 
clubs. The members are selected by the service organizations 
themselves and they become members by invitation extended by 
these service organizations.

In summary, the evidence shows that insofar as the



82

school administrators are concerned every student at Albany 
High School, Negro and white, is eligible for membership in 
any club which exists on the campus and there are a number of 
Negro students who are members of various clubs at the school, 
and further, that no Negro student or parent of a Negro student 
at Albany High School has ever made any complaint to the school 
officials about the manner in which any clubs are operated at 
Albany High School.

Next, Counsel for the Plaintiffs complain about what 
they refer to as a "segregated" bus used for the transportation 
of Negro students to Albany High School, In this regard the 
evidence showed that for some time it has been the practice 
in the school system for all students who live in the environs 
of the city and who are eligible to be transported by school 
bus to Albany High School to meet at the nearest neighborhood 
school where they are picked up by a school bus and transported 
to Albany High School. When Albany High School became inte­
grated this same procedure was continued, but the Negro stu­
dents objected to being required to meet at the neighborhood 
school and insisted that they be picked up by the buses at 
their respective homes. Since these Negro students lived in 
scattered areas throughout the city, the school authorities, 
in an effort to avoid any complaint, designated a special bus 
to go pick these students up at their homes and bring them to 
Albany High School, Since there were no white students



83

who objected to gathering at the neighborhood school the in­
evitable result was that the only students being transported on 
this particular special bus were Negro students and thus they 
"segregated" themselves- They were not segregated by the Boards 
but their insistence on being picked up at their homes re­
sulted in self-segregation and it is this result about which 
Counsel now complains. No student and no parent of any stu­
dent has made any complaint to the Board about this arrange­
ment, and if any Negro student feels that he is being dis­
advantaged by riding this bus all he would have to do to get 
the "advantage" of riding on the bus with white students would
be to meet at the neighborhood school as the white students do

2and be transported as they are.
Finally, Counsel for the Plaintiffs complain that there 

are no white teachers teaching at formerly all-Negro schools 
and no Negro teachers teaching at formerly all-white schools.
The evidence shows that the Defendant Board of Education has 
had no requests from Negro teachers teaching at formerly all- 
Negro schools to transfer to formerly all-white schools, nor 
have they had any requests from white teachers to transfer

The Board does not have a policy against operating inte­
grated buses. Many of the school buses in the system 
transport children of both races at the same time.



84

from formerly all-white schools to formerly all-Negro schools, 
and that they have had no applications for employment from 
Negro teachers to teach in the formerly all-white schools, nor 
from white teachers to teach in the formerly all-Negro schools. 
This means that what Counsel are contending is that the Defend­
ant Board of Education should have ordered Negro teachers and 
white teachers to transfer to other schools against their will 
simply for the purpose of creating racial integration. We do 
not conceive that the Board is under any such mandate, espe­
cially since there is complete freedom of choice within the 
system whereby students may transfer from one school to another. 
There has been no showing that any child in the system is being 
deprived of any constitutional right by any reluctance on the 
part of the School Board to forcibly assign teachers against 
their will. The evidence in the case shows that the adminis­
trators of the system have in mind the assignment of teachers 
at a later time in such manner that there will be bi-racial 
faculties, but it is their judgment that that stage has not 
yet been reached in the evolving plan, and having in mind the 
fact that good student-faculty relationships are necessary 
for quality education they conceive it to be their duty to 
approach this step when all of the administrative problems 
and additional burdens which have been imposed upon the school 
system by virtue of the accelerated desegregation plan have



85

become somewhat less than at present.
The Court observes that although the Court's order 

required the desegregation plan with regard to the assignment 
of students to be completed by the beginning of the school 
year 1967 the Board will actually have completed the imple­
mentation of the plan by the beginning of the school year 
1966, or one year in advance of the schedule prescribed by 
the Court. This is convincing evidence that the Board is act­
ing in good faith in discharging its obligations under the 
Court order and may be depended upon to do so in the future .

The Court concludes that none of Counsel's criticisms 
appear to be valid. On the contrary, the evidence shows that 
there is no need for modification in the plan and all of the 
prayers for further relief are accordingly denied.

IT IS SO ORDERED this 19th day of August, 1966.

S/ J, Robert Elliott 
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

...oOo...

3
It is noted that in the order which was entered by this Court 
pursuant to the mandate of the Fifth Circuit Court of Ap­
peals no reference is made to any forcible integration of 
faculties or assignments of teachers against their will and 
it may be presumed that none was intended, for that Court 
spelled out in detail the order that was to be entered by 
this Court.



86

NOTICE OF APPEAL
(Number and title omitted) (Filed: Sept. 7, 1966)
TO: DOUGHERTY COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION, a public body corpo­
rate, and others:

You, and each of you will please take notice that 
the Plaintiffs in the above subject case do hereby appeal to 
the U. S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit from the 
judgment and order denying the relief sought in said motion 
for a modification of the school desegregation plan, on the 
ground that the evidence showed that there was no need for 
modification in the said plan, entered in said case on the 
22nd day of August, 1966 and that the certified transcript of 
the record will be filed in said Appellate Court within 40 
days from the filing of this notice.

DATE: Sept 1, 1966
S/ C. B. King

ATTORNEY FOR PLAINTIFFS
C. B. KING 
P. 0. BOX 1024 
ALBANY, GEORGIA 31702

...qOo ...
* * * * *

NOTE: PORTION OF RECORD OMITTED -
FILED IN ORIGINAL FORM

* * * * *

...oOo...



87

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
(Number and title omitted) (Filed: )

NON-JURY - BEFORE
HONORABLE J. ROBERT ELLIOTT,
United States District Judge
At: Albany, Georgia,

AUGUST 10, 1966.
A ppearances:

For Plaintiff: ME, C, B. KING*.?
s  > -I t  3 9  a 6 J h  °  S '■* IAlbany, Georgia . d rip  J

F orcDefendant ? x riw no ,5 WA£TERgJ;' LIPPITT,ERsf'i

ss±±b as. ncaiLt srew oriw* adLsbuds &noiJeoiXqqfi ^ n i M m  ro Reported By
b sb asc rx e  313W S ^ t j D E ^ I N E R ,  ‘J ^ : ,

_ r .Official Reporter,. U, S. Co .sloorioa Jbf?"(3doir|ia,
0:1:+ lo me.:: : • ... Ga

(!) ALBANY, GEORGIA ̂  ^  10:.00 A.M. fa AUGUST. 10.,.-. 1966
the COURT:

i d s  - a r id  rd ;  - o b

rnn-rteo.iort >o i
'T S r- JjSrfJ ( ’V: •' £ f ' ' S K -T1

.eiso i vs xo i  a  o  i s  o n  s : i i  a  a oori o:t't rnrxaq sisv
We have set for a hearing at thi^i,..̂ 4||ê d̂ T>F'̂ ax'A' 

to Civil Action. No. ,,764r ,in tji,e .Albany.p iv i s iQ p ,^ ^ h e „ .a p p l i e a - -

tion of the Plaintiffs for further relief, relats.iye,,.t,Q ..thee l j q v q  o .i e x x i o n  c o s o s s e i  p n w i p  1 0  {J ii i,~i.xc:uu,j. ■ •:. •

subject-matter pf the .complaint,,, .which represents, ,a. spit which 
has been pending in this Court., for pome tipe,r(,^pi^j-jt]p:.ee yeape,^ 
would .imagine. . . ( ^  ^  ... no i n e v  ™ o D  er[T

Does, the Plaintiff announce ready, to.proceed, Mr... K.ing^w 
m - KING: ......ViM

, . . . .  ,.a , ,  ,,, 'i  ,.;n  r-f-4 ! r r o w  S . ' l . ' t

Your Honor, the Plaintiff announces ready, sir,



88

THE COURT:
Mr. Walters?

MR. WALTERS:
The Defendant is ready, if Your Honor please.

THE COURT:
All right, Mr. King, it is your motion and you may 

proceed.
MR. KING:

All right. If Your Honor pleases, this is a motion 
for further relief under an injunction which issued on 
August 4, 1964. The decree of the Court said in effect that 
the students who were then in attendance or making application 
for attendance in the schools of this county were extended 
freedom of choice in the selection of vocational schools.
It said also that students attending the school system of the 
county relating to the plan regarding the affected grades in 
the plan were permitted to choose the nearest previously (2) 
all white or Negro school.

It also dealt with the fact that the School Board 
had the responsibility of giving reasonable notice to pupils 
of the opportunity for those pupils to exercise the choice 
relating to the then changed circumstances.

The Court went on further to say that these essentially 
were minimum requirements and that, upon motion by the 
Plaintiff, the burden would rest on the Defendants to show



89

why an acceleration of complete desegregation of the County 
schools should not be required.

Essentially, Your Honor, after sustaining the reach 
of the injunctive relief that was given by this Court in 
the first instance, we come to this Court today addressing 
ourselvei to essentially two grievances, and that is the 
absence of teacher desegregation in the county school system 
of Dougherty; and, of course, secondly the adequacy of no­
tice of pre-registration transfers; and it is toward that 
end, Your Honor, that we want to submit evidence bearing upon 
those matters and, after the presentation thereof, we res­
pectfully request the relief prayed for in the prayer or the 
motion for permanent relief.

Toward that end, Your Honor, the first witness that 
the Plaintiff calls this morning is Mr. McNabb, the Principal 
of the Albany High School. I don't believe he's been sworn. 
Will you swear him, sir?
(3) THE COURT:

Do you want to be heard from, Mr. Walters?
MR. WALTERS:

Yes sir, I would, if Your Honor pleases. Your 
Honor please, as I understand counsel - he has many more 
Aspects of this matter set forth in his motion for further 
r©lief - but, as I understood him, the only two features 
that he is now concerning himself with are teacher desegration



90

and inadequacy of notice,
MR. KING:

No, we address ourselves to all of the relief which 
is prayed for in the motion for further relief. We take 
the position that all of what is prayed for in the motion 
for further relief is but an aspect of these two principal 
concerns.
MR. WALTERS:

I just wanted to see whether he was abandoning the 
other aspects.
THE COURT:

All right, swear the witness.
MR. HAROLD E. McNABB

called as adverse witness by Plaintiffs, being duly sworn, 
testified on

CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. KING:
Q Would you state your full name for the record, sir?
A Harold E. McNabb.
Q Mr. McNabb, what is your profession or calling, sir?
(4) A School teacher, principal.
Q And of what school is that, sir?
A Albany High School, Principal; and Director of High
Schools at the present time.
Q And how long have you served in that capacity, sir?



91

A In which one?
Q How long have you served in that capacity?
A As Principal of Albany High School since 1947 and
Director of High Schools, I believe it's about three years.
Q Would you indicate what your function is, sir, as the
Director of High Schools?
A As the Director of High Schools, it's more or less
general supervision of the two high schools, Albany High 
School and Dougherty High; and I've been instructed during 
the past spring to also supervise the Monroe High School 
for the coming year.
Q But your function as the Director of High Schools has
been that of supervising -
A And the selection of teachers for Albany High School
and Dougherty High School.
Q Now, you've served in that capacity for two years, is
that correct?
A Yes sir.
Q You are employed by the Dougherty County Board of
Education, sir?
(5) A Yes sir.
Q Now, I call your attention, sir, to one of the func­
tions enunciated by you, and that is the employment of 
teachers, you say, at the Albany High School as well as the 
Eougherty High School?



92

A Correct/ sir.
Q I ask you, sir, whether it is true that no Negro teach­
ers are employed by either of those previously all white 
schools?
A That is correct.
Q Can you explain why, sir?
A Well, in the employment of the teachers, we do not
have any - for one thing, we did not have any particular 
applications at all, none as far as I know for Albany High 
School or Dougherty High School, and we employ teachers more 
or less as we always have based on applications that we re­
ceive and so forth.
Q As well as race, is that correct?
A As well as what?
Q Race?
A We have never employed any for the white schools on
the basis of anything other than white teachers for white 
schools.
Q And that is the or was the prevailing policy since
you assumed your responsibility as the Director of High 
Schools, (6) is that right?
A Yes.
Q And to your knowledge, it is still the policy of the
School System?
A I have not received any instructions otherwise.



93

THE COURT:
What is the policy? You used the word "policy" and 

I haven't heard any statement of policy. So, what do we meant? 
I want to be sure the witness understands your question and 
I want to be sure I understand his answer. What do you mean? 
MR. KING:
Q Of hiring white teachers for previously all white
schools and Negro teachers for previously all Negro schools; 
is that correct, sir?
A I have not hired any Negro teachers for any schools,
Q Did you understand what I meant when I said "policy",
sir, and you answered it?
A I think so.
THE COURT:

Well, what is the answer to his question, if I under­
stand the question? The fact that none, that no Negro 
teachers have been employed in the white schools, that is not 
a policy; that is a fact or it's not a fact; but if we're go­
ing to talk about a policy, let's be sure we understand each 
other and understand what we're talking about.
MR. KING:

Well, I asked the witness and I assume (7) he's the 
highest and best evidence of what he understands about what's 
meant by policy.
TKE COURT:

I want to be sure he understands first; and then,



94

secondly, I want to be sire I understand. It's important 
that I understand it also.
MR. KING:
Q It is your statement, is it not, sir, that the policy
of employment as relates to your function as the Director 
of Education at the Albany High School and the Dougherty 
County High School is that of employing as you have in the 
past only white teachers to teach in those schools, is 
that correct?
A i have not received any instructions to hire either
white or black.
Q Would you answer that question, sir?
A As I say, I have not received any instructions;
therefore, I em ploy teachers as I have in the past, all 
white teachers for white schools.
Q And that was your policy?
BY THE COURT:

/Q Let me ask a question: There's no use in trying to
beat around the bush, just ask the question and let's get an 
answer to it: Do you have a policy of not employing any
Negro teachers in white schools? Do you have a policy of not 
employing any Negro teachers in any previously all (8) white 
schools?
A No sir, I can't say that I have been informed not to
employ Negro teachers for white schools. When I say



95

informed, that would come from the Board policy,
BY MR. KING:
Q I see. As you understand your job, sir, would it
permit you to employ Negro teachers at this time at either of 
the schools of which you are director?
A I do not know whether they would be employed or not.
I could recommend them to the Superintendent of Schools and 
the Board.
Q As you understand your job, sir, would you be per-
mitted, that is as you understand your job as Director - 
A Right.
Q - of Education at the Albany High School and Dougherty
County High School, would you be permitted to employ Negro 
teachers at either of those schools?
A That I could not answer because mine only would be a
recommendation to the School Board and I don't know that they 
would be employed or not employed.
Q Did you make any recommendations, sir?
A No sir.
Q Did you make any recommendations -
THE COURT:

Just a minute -- 
MR. WALTERS:

Well, I see now he is going further (9) into this ques­
tion. i thought he had finished his question, did he make



96

any recommendations"; and I don't know how anyone could 
answer any such question as that without his saying what it 
pertains to; but I see he is now going further into it.
MR. KING:
Q Did you make any recommendations of any Negro teachers?
A No sir, I did not have any to apply for either of those
schools.
Q Are you suggesting, sir, that this is the only way that
you make recommendations is upon application?
A Well, I certainly would not make any recommendations
unless I felt sure that I had a teacher applying for a job.
Q You didn't answer my question, sir: The question was,
are you suggesting that this is the only way that you make 
recommendations, and that is upon application?
MR. WALTERS;

Your Honor pleases, I think the witness answered the 
question, that he couldn't make any recommendations unless 
he had an application from a teacher to teach.
THE COURT:

Well, he can say that. The question was asked him.
Go ahead and answer the question.
THE WITNESS:
Q The answer is the same. I could not make a recomenda-
tion unless I had somebody to recommend.
(10) MR. KING:
Q Then, your answer is "No", you don't make



97

recommendations unless you have an application, don't make 
recommendations of anybody unless you have an application, 
is that right? Is that what you're saying?
A That's correct.
Q Have you conferred with the Board asking whether or
not there are any Negro teachers who have made application 
to teach in any of the high schools?
A No sir.
Q Then, is it not true that what you mean is that there
have been no applications sought by you of Negroes who are 
competent in areas relating to either of these high schools? 
A Repeat the question, please.
MR. KING:

Would you read it back to him, Mr. Reporter?
THE REPORTER:

Then, is it not true that what you mean is there have 
been no applications sought by you of Negroes who are compe­
tent in areas relating to either of these high schools?^
THE COURT:

What is that now? Do you understand the question?
THE WITNESS:
A Well, I thought I did.
THE COURT:

As I understand the question, he's asking you whether 
Y°u have gone out and sought people to (11) make applications



98

for positions; that's the way I understand it; is that what, 
you mean? Is that what you said?
MR. KING:

No, that isn't what I said.
THE COURT:

Well, re-state it; if that is not what you said, then 
I'm confused about it.
MR. KING:
Q Mr. McNabb, is it not true that your function as Di­
rector of Education requires you to examine applications 
which have been made to Mr. Cordell for employment at the 
Dougherty County Board of Education?
A if Mr. Cordell has applications, he sends them to me
in the normal procedure; and then I interview the people.
Q Pursuant to this normal procedure, has Mr. Cordell
ever sent you the application of any Negro teachers?
A No sir.
Q Is that the explanation as to why you have never
recommended any?
A Well, the only answer I can make to that is, the rea­
son I didn’t recommend any is that I didn't interview any 
and I had no applications from any of them. Now, as to why 
I didn't get the applications I do not know. I do not think 
that Mr. Cordell got any for white schools but that's a 
supposition.



99

Q Are you suggesting, sir, that teachers who are -
that it is your experience that teachers who are coming into 
(12) the Dougherty County School System make application for 
a certain school?
A Some of them d.o. Most of them sometimes will state
''in your school system".
Q Well, isn't that the rule rather than the exception,
that they are interested in employment in your school sys­
tem regarding their area of specialization?
A I cannot say that that is true because we have, I
will say from January to May, we get a lot of applications 
from people who know about our schools, who are interested 
in coming to Albany High School because of experience and our 
reputation. In other words, we do not have any trouble, 
you might say, in filling vacancies with most of the time 
experienced people from say January to May.
Q I ask you, sir, that is not the exclusive method, is
it, sir?
A Oh, no sir.

* * * * * * * * * *
(30) BY MR. KING:
Q Is it not true, sir, that there are many extracurricu­
lar organizations on the campus of the previously all white 
school, Albany High?
^ Yes.
(31) Q T ask you further, sir, is it not true that



100

there are many extracurricular clubs or organizations on 
that campus which exclude members because of race?
A 1 do not know of any clubs that we have in which
you would be excluded because of race. Now, if you are 
thinking of the Tri-Hi-Y or Hi-Y, which was mentioned to 
me sometime ago, I do not know that they exclude anybody 
on the basis of race, I mentioned to Mr, Mays, the man who 
was in charge of the Y~ last year, "Jimmie, any student at 
Albany High School, any student at Albany High School has 
the right to join any club or is eligible to join; what if 
they join the Hi-Y?" He said "They could not meet at the Y." 
I said "Well, that’s not necessarily any problem; they could 
meet here at the school", which they do at Dougherty High,
And he said "Well, we'll face that when it comes to it,"

Now, there's nothing, there's no club set up where 
race is an issue at all in our schools. We have no activity 
where race is an issue.
Q I ask you, sir, you do have cn your campus the Hi-Y
and Tri-Hi-Y clubs?
A Yes sir.
Q 1 ask you, sir, if that is a club which is affi­
liated with the YMCA?
A Right.
Q I ask you, sir, is it not true that their meetings
(32) are presently held and activities are presently held



101

at the YMCA of this City?
A That's right.
Q I ask you, sir, isn't it true that the policy of the
YMCA to your knowledge is racist?
A He has never, tye YMCA Director has never told me
that.
0 I didn't ask you what he told you?
A Then, I do not know it.
Q I said, to your knowledge, sir, is it not a racist
policy?
A No sir, I do not know.
Q That the YMCA in this City has?
A I do not know. I'm not a member of the Y myself and
1 do not know that.
Q But you do admit that their activities of the Tri-Hi-Y
aid the Hi-Y —
A Yes sir,
Q —  are carried on at the YMCA?
A Yes sir.
Q And that this is a sanctioned or approved activity
bY the School?
A Yes sir; and furthermore, if a student had wanted to
join them last year, they could have joined the club in our 
school and then we could have found out whether they would
(33) have been accepted or not.



102

Q But it is your indication that in talking to the
manager of the YMCA - 
A Right.
Q - the ambiguous or the greatest assurance that he
would give you as to what the policy would be regarding race - 
A He did not give me any assurance.
Q -- was his ambiguous statement that "we would get to
that when we came to it" - is that correct?
A Right.
Q And you didn't pursue it any further?
A No sir.
Q But you still approved?
A The club?
Q The Tri-Hi-Y and the Hi-Y?
A Yes sir, they do fine work.
Q Just a momentI You approved them continuing to
have their meetings at the YMCA, is that correct?
A As long as the conditions as they are, yes.
Q Do you have occasion to go to the YMCA very frequently
sir?
A No, I don't think I've been there in 3 or 4 years.

Q This matter was addressed to your attention by Negro
students in attendance at Albany High, was it not, sir?
A This what?
(34) Q This matter of the racist policy of the YMCA?



103

A No student has ever spoken to me about it.
Q Then, would you explain, sir, why it became sig­
nificant enough for you to address it to the Manager of the 
YMCA?
A Because Mr. Mays was out there one day making ar­
rangements with some of the sponsors about a meeting; and 
X said, "By the way, Jimmie, you will probably have some 
Negro students joining the Y. " He said "Well, they can’t 
meet at the Y."
Q Oh, I see.
A And I did not pursue the thing with him.
Q But he did tell you on that occasion that they
couldn1t meet at the Y?
A Yes.
Q And how did you interpret that, when he said they
couldn't meet at the Y?
A I said they can meet here then because any of our
students can meet here.
Q I asked you, how did you interpret it, sir?
A Interpreted it that they didn't want us over there,
that they didn’t wans us over there.
MR. WALTERS:

Your Honor, I don’t know whether we're trying the 
YMCA today or the Albany schools?



104

MR. KING:
Well, I think they are inseparably related.

(35) MR. WALTERS:
They are not inseparably related. The Dougherty 

County Board of Education doesn't have one iota or one 
thing to do with the Albany YMCA.
THE COURT:

I imagine that's true. Nothing appearing to the 
contrary, I will presume that the School Board doesn't have 
anything to do with control of the YMCA. The Superintendent 
has said and made it clear that if Negro students wanted to 
join, they could have their meetings at the school.
THE WITNESS:
A That's right.
THE COURT:

That if the YMCA didn't want them therec they could 
meet at the School. I don't know of anything else that the 
Superintendent could do. He can't make the YMCA take any- 
body they don't want, I don't suppose. Of course, I am 
presuming that. But he has said, the statement was made to 
the person in charge of the activity that if any Negro stu­
dent wanted to join the organization, they could do so and 
that they could have their meetings there at the School.
BY .MR. KING:
Q You didn't tell a Negro student that, did you?



105

A No Negro student has asked me about it, about any
club.
Q You didn't answer my question, sir: You didn't tell
any Negro student that, did you, sir?
(36) A No.
MR. WALTERS:

Now, if you you would like to explain that, explain 
it, Mr, McNabb.
THE WITNESS:
A I just don't explain any of the clubs to the stu­
dents or make any recruitment for any clubs or anything 
else.
BY THE COURT:
Q Well, did any Negro student ask you about it?
A No Negro student asked me about joining any club,

sv

anY club. There are some 30-something clubs in our School. 
BY MR. KING:
Q Isn't it true, Mr. McNabb, that in years past, that
the School - that is to say in years past, I mean in prior 
years - that the School put out brochures on the clubs that 
^udents could apply for and join?
A We haven't made any new brochures in several years.
Q I didn't ask you that, sir. Will you answer the
question?
^ We had a brochure several years ago, about the time



106

Albany High School was the new high school,, that outlined 
and gave a small, a short description of each subject, and 
each club, each activity and everything that the School had 
on the campus; and that has not been revised and no new one 
has been issued.
Q So, you just ran out here recently, is that correct?
(37) A Well, we haven't given that bulletin - we
haven't had any of those in several years.

* * * * * * * *

(39) Q Have you had any new campus organizations to 
be approved by the School at Albany High, sir, new or­
ganizations, say in the past three years?
A Clubs?
Q Yes sir?
A You mean clubs organized?
Q Yes sir?
A I don't believe so. Off-hand, I can't think of any
new ones that have been organized.
Q To the best of your recollection, when was the last
time an organization or a club was given approval by the 
school?
A These dates run together on me, but the only new club
(40) that I can think of, we had a Debating Club that was 
organized 3 or 4 years ago; we had a Girls Club that was 
organized somewhere around 4 or 5 years ago. Those are the



107

only two that I can think of off-hand. If you can give me 
more concrete information, I might be able to give you a 
better answer.
Q How many clubs would you submit are on the campus
and approved by the School, sir; that is, at the Albany High? 
A I guess around 30.
Q Around 30?
A Or 35.
Q Now, when was the first year that you had Negro
students attending a previously all-white high school?
A '64-65.
Q What, if anything, did you do, as the Principal or
Director of Education, to determine what the racial policy 
°f these organizations were?
A Well, all except five, there was no determination
necessary, because they're eligible to anybody, based on 
either achievement or interest or desire to join. The five 
service clubs that we have from the standpoint of the School, 
there's no racial problem there, except that the clubs them­
selves - for instance, the Key Club, sponsored by the Kiwanis 
Club, has been in existence 18 years; and they select their 
own membership.
(41) Q Excuse me, sir; the only thing I'm trying
to ascertain is, with the admission of black people to the 
Previously all white schools, what, if anything, did you do



108

in terms of investigating racial policies of any of the 
clubs?
A Nothing, sir.
Q You did nothing?
MR. WALTERS;

Your Honor, I think he was answering the question 
in its entirety and I submit he should be permitted to con- 
tinue his answer.
THE COURT;

He said he did nothing in the way of investigating 
but he apparently knows without having to investigate.
MR. WALTERS;

And he was explaining it.
THE COURT;

If he knows, as he said, that none of these clubs 
have any racial policies, it's pertinent for him to say so; 
and, as I interpret it, that is what he has said, with the 
exception that he was about to mention, some who are con­
trolled by outside, such as service clubs and the Key Club 
he had just mentioned. And so, he is entitled to a full 
explanation of his answer. If he wants to go ahead, he can 
if he doesn't want to, I'm not going to require him to.
THE WITNESS;
A Well, I'll finish the statement. Those clubs them­
selves select the students and invite the students to join



109

their clubs. They may be - as far as I know, (42) they 
have no other policy. The only thing that they do to me 
is that will give me a list of 30 or 40 names or more and 
ask me to check them from the standpoint of whether they're 
passing their work or not, whether they have any cuts and 
deportment and things like that. And I check those things 
and they make their selection. They make up their own, 
list of people that they want me to check for their clubs.
Q Do you take the position, sir, that you have no
responsibility in approving a club to know whether or 
not the parent or outside agency, like the Kiwanis, has a 
racial policy or not?
A No sir, I think that our club has been in existence
for the past 18 years and they have proved - 
Q Would you answer the question, sir? Do you take
the position that you owe no responsibility in your position 
as the Director of Public Education to determine whether or 
n°t the parent organization is a racist organization or not? 
A Well, I don't know what you mean by "racist organiza­
tion" about the Kiwanis.
Q That is, they believe in racial exclusiveness?
 ̂ I don't know whether that's a part of their policy
°r not.
Q That isn't the question:



110

THE COURT:
That is not his question. His question was, do 

you think it is any of your responsibility (43) to deter­
mine that before you let those organizations have service 
clubs on your campus. That's his question. Do you think it 
is any of y>ur responsibility to determine that?

Now, of course, next I'm going to ask counsel wheth­
er he's got any evidence that any of those organizations 
have such a racist policy, because this doesn't do any 
good unless you're going to show that. But go ahead and 
answer the question now.
THE WITNESS:
A No sir.
THE COURT:

All right, go ahead; do you want to ask him now or
later.
BY MR. KING:
Q If I understand your response, you feel that in
your official capacity as the Director of Public Educa­
tion regarding these high schools, you have no responsibility 
to inquire into the racial policies of these organizations. 
Now, would you name the remainder of these service organi­
zations, aside from the Kiwanis?
A Rotary Club, Civitans, the Anchor Club; and the
Civians have a girls' club too. Those five.



Ill

Q Now, I ask you, Mr. McNabb, is it not true that the
Rotarians of this community are racially exclusive in their 
membership?
A Yes sir.
(44) Q I ask you, sir, is it not true that the
other service organizations that you have made reference 
to in this community are not racially exclusive in their 
policy for membership?
A As far as I know, they are, sir.
MR. KING:

I have no further questions for Mr. McNabb.
DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. WALTERS:
Q I have just one or two questions as a matter of
information for the Court: Now, when you referred to ser­
vice clubs, which I believe you said the Key Club was spon­
sored by the Kiwanis Club, do you or any of the teachers or 
any of the personnel of the Dougherty County Board of Edu­
cation or teachers of the Albany High School have anything 
whatsoever to do with the selection of membership to those 
clubs?
A No sir.
Q Are the members selected by the parent club or the
5ponsoring club?
^ No sir, the school club itself.
Q The school club itself?



112

A Yes.
0 Mr. McNabb, relative to the Negroes that are in at­
tendance at Albany High School, does the High School,
Albany (45 High School have any policy of treating them any 
different than they do any other student whatsoever?
A No sir.
Q Are they treated just exactly like all other stu­
dents in the Albany High School?
A Yes sir.
Q When we talk about the credits that were given in
transferring from Monroe High School to Albany High School, 
as I understood your testimony, it was that you in going 
over the transcripts apply those credits exactly as they 
are applied in the Albany High School and earned in the 
Albany High School, is that correct? We'll take Physical 
Education, for instance?
A Right.
Q What credit does the Albany High School give students
for physical education?
A One quarter unit per year.
Q One quarter unit per year?
A Yes,
Q Any student transferring to Albany High School, who
has previously in some other school taken Physical Education 
and earned more than one quarter unit per year, is this unit



113

adjusted to conform with the standards of Albany High School? 
A Yes sir.
Q White and colored alike?
(46) A Yes sir.
Q Is the reason for this so that people graduating from 
Albany High School will all have a like graduation record?
A More or less; in other words, at least meet the same 
requirements.
Q Now, are any Negroes members of clubs in Albany High 
School?
A Yes, we had some that were in the French Club last 
year and some in the Dramatic Club and we have 5 or 6 or 7 
in the play that we had; and we had some the year before in 
the chorus; and we've had them in Spanish Club and I think 
we had some in - I know we had some in the Speech Club; 
there were several of them in that. And Around in the 
other clubs, I do not know specifically. But we do have 
several of them that are in clubs.
Q Mr. McNabb, has any student, any Negro student at 
Albany High School or any parent or guardian of any Negro 
student at Albany High School, ever made any complaint to 
you relative to the mode of transportation to and from 
their homes?
^ No sir.
Q Mr. McNabb, has any student, Negro student at Albany 
High School, or any parent or guardian of any Negro student 
at Albany High School, ever made any complaint to you about



114

the manner in which clubs were operated at Albany High School? 
A No sir.
(47) Q Has any Negro teacher within the system of the
Albany public schools ever been to you at the Albany High 
School and requested that they be given the right to trans­
fer to the Albany High School?
A No sir.
Q Has any Negro ever come to you, as Principal of the Al­
bany High School, and applied to you for a position, a teach­
ing position in the Albany High School?
A No sir.

RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. KINGr
Q Now Mr. McNabb, when you respond to Mr. Walters' in­
quiry regarding the adjustment of units and you reply in the 
affirmative, what you meant by that was a reduction in units
to conform with Albany High Schoo; is that correct?
A If that's what it meant, yes sir. In other words, to
give the same credit for the same thing for the same time.
Q Right and, as we have discussed it as relates to Mon­
roe it and Albany High, it constitutes a  diminution, does it 
not?
A In this case, yes sir.
Q Now, how many teachers have you employed for the year
1966-67, sir?
A I think somewhere around 31 or -2.
Q 31 or 32?



115

A Somewhere along there.
Q And of that number how many made applications to you? 
A All of them.
Q Now, didn’t you testify just a moment ago that they 
came from Mr. Cordell, applications?
A The application blank may have been sent to me from 
Mr. Cordell but I consider that an application to me when 
they came to me.
Q So,when you testified before about Mr. Cordell send­
ing you applications, you were talking about blanks?
A An application that's filled in is an application, 
and whether the application went to him or went to me, if 
it went to him, it came to me; but it's already completed; 
and then I make the contact and the arrangements and the 
interview with the person.
Q But it is your testimony that they would normally 
come from Mr. Cordells1s office to you; is that true?
A Both ways; some came direct to me and some came from 
him.
Q Well, did you not testify a moment ago that the 
general sequence was that they came from Mr. Cordell to you? 
A I don’t think so.
Q You don't think so?
A No.
Q Well, how does it in fact occur, sir?



(49) A It comes both ways.
MR. WALTERS;

Now, if Your Honor please, has has answered that 
question four times, to my knowledge.
THE COURT:

Yes.
THE WITNESS:
A A lot of people write in from the colleges and, as
I told you, experienced teachers write in direct to me; 
we send them an application blank and they fill that out 
and send it back and we set up an interview. Some ap­
plication blanks go to Mr. Cordell's office and he puts 
them in the mail to me; and then I contact the person.
THE COURT:

A number of questions were asked about how many new 
teachers had been employed for the coming year; I don't 
know what that refers to.
MR. KING:

30, he said 
BY THE COURT:
Q I don't know; apparently you all understand each
other but I don't understand it. Do you mean in the high 
schools in the system; is that what you mean?
A Yes sir.
Q In all of the high schools in the system?

116



117

A Yes sir, I think Albany --
BY MR. KING:
Q You have reference specifically, do you not, to
Albany High School and Dougherty High School?
A Albany and Dougherty, I think the two of them to­
gether (50) run around 36 or 37, the two of them together.
Q And all of those that you've employed are white?
Is that correct?
A Yes sir.
Q At least - have you interviewed all of them?
A Yes sir, we don't employ them unless we interview
them.
Q Then, you can reliably inform me that they are
white?
A To the best of my knowledge.
Q Mr. McNabb, you indicated that none of the Negro
students at Albany High made any complaint to you with ref­
erence to any circumstance regarding their situation as 
students, as I believe you put it —
A I believe the question was about clubs.
Q Well, clubs. And your response was that no complaint
had been made to you, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q This, of course, is not to suggest that there were
not complaints made to their teachers or persons in authority?



118

A If so, they were not given to me and I think I would
have - I get most of the complaints. You get those.
MR. KING:

I have no further questions.
MR. WALTERS:

I think.he's answered this question but I will ask
him.
(51) REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALTERS:
Q All of the teaching positions in the Albany High
School and Dougherty High School are filled for the school 
year 1966-67, are they or not?
A Yes sir.
THE COURT:

All right, we'll take a recess of about 10 minutes 
at this time.

RECESS: 11:25 AM to 11:35 AM. - AUGUST 10, 1966.
MR. KING:

If Your Honor pleases, the Plaintiff calls Mr. J. J. 
Cordell for cross-examination, sir.

MR. J. J. CORDELL
called as adverse witness by Plaintiff, being first duly 
sworn, testified on

CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. KING:
Q Would you state your full name for the record, sir?



119

A I'm Joel James Cordell.
Q Mr. Cordell, would you indicate what your calling
or profession is, sir?
A Education; I'm an educator.
Q And how are you employed or for whom do you work
presently?
A The Dougherty County Board of Education.
(52) Q And in what capacity, sir?
A As Superintendent of Education. > *
Q Now Mr. Cordell, I call your attention to the
desegregation of public schools; you are aware, are you 
not, of the decision that issued in August, 1964, with 
reference to desegregation of schools of this County?
A Yes.
Q Pursuant to the decision of the Court relating to
desegregation, I ask you, sir, what, if anything, did 
you in your official capacity do toward giving notice for 
the academic year, 1966-67?
MR. WALTERS:

May I hand the witness material concerning that, 
Your Honor?
THE COURT:

Yes. I don't believe you had finished your ques-
ti on.
MR. KING:

No sir, I didn't.



120

Q Pursuant to that order what, if anything, did you
do, sir, for the year or the academic year coming 1966-67 
to disseminate information regarding the plan of desegre­
gation?
A Well, we prepared and distributed or prepared and
published in three local newspapers a notice of the period 
of registration or request for transfer; the first one 
being, appeared the first week in April, as directed by the 
Court order. And these dates were April 4 through 8th.
(53) Now, that notice was published in the Albany Herald 
and the Albany Journal and the Southwest Georgian, and a 
copy of the notice was given to each child in the school 
system to be carried home.
Q Then, if I understand you correctly, sir, you're
saying that notice was published in the Albany Herald, the 
Southwest Georgian and the Albany Journal; is that correct, 
sir?
A That's right.
Q Was it published on one occasion in each of these?
A This particular notice was, yes.
Q Yes, that is the one relating to the 5th. through the
9 th?
A That's right.
Q Is that correct, sir?
A That's right.



121

Q It is your testimony, is it not -
A Now, it wasn't the 5th through the 9th. It was
the 5th and 6th and 9th, this particular notice here.
Q The 5th?
A And 6th and 9th grades.
Q No, no. I see; there was room for error; I was
thinking in terms of dates of April 5th through 9th?
A Oh, well, this was the 4th through the 8th.
Q The 4th through 8th?
(54) A You said 1966?
Q Yes sir?
A 4th through 8th.
THE COURT:

In reading the record, I'm afraid I'm going to be 
confused; you gentlemen probably understand each other but 
that doesn't make sense to me. Let's get it straight so 
I'll understand it;

Are you talking about now the notice that was 
published the 4th through the 8th, or are you talking 
about the period of application for transfer, 4th. through 
8th? What do we mean there? Suppose you just let him 
state it.
MR. KING:

I'll clear that up. 
the COURT:

Let him state it in his own language and maybe 1111



122

understand it.
BY THE COURT:
Q Just state what was done?
A Yes sir, under the Court order we were -
Q Referring to dates, as Mr. King has tried to elicit?
A Under the Court order we were directed -
Q No, don't tell me about the Court order; tell me
what you did?
A . The first week in April we were to give timely notice 
to the parents concerning how they would go about requesting 
a transfer either to previously all white school (55) or 
previously all Negro school. So, we published this notice 
actually on March 29 and April 2 in these papers, stating 
that the registration period for this purpose would be 
April 4 through 8, 1966.
Q Now, the notice you're referring to is something
you're holding in your hand?
A That's right.
THE COURT:

All right, let that be identified as something, as 
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1, if you want to.
MR. WALTERS:

Yes sir, it will be a defendant's exhibit I had pre­
pared for that purpose.
MR. KING:

I was going to offer it. It doesn't make any difference.



123

THE COURT:
Well, Plaintiff's Exhibit #1, as long as we get 

it in the record; that's all.
MR. KING:

Yes sir.
THE COURT:

All right, do you want to identify it as Plain- 
tiffs' Exhibit #1?
MR. KING:

Yes sir.
BY THE COURT:
A And you said further that a copy of that notice
was given to each child in the school system?
A Yes sir.
Q To be taken home to the child's parents?
A Yes sir.
Q With instructions that they give it to the parents?
A Yes sir, that was the instructions given to (56) the
teachers.
Q And by the teacher to the child?
A That's right.

* * * * * * * * * *

(58) . MR. KING:
***■'-•

Q Since there's some question about it, would you
read that please?



1.24

A (Reading): "Important school notice, School
Registration, Monday through Friday, April 4-8, 1966;
Parents of child entering the First Grade in September, 
1966, shall register their child at the former all Negro 
school or the former all white school nearest their res­
idence .

"All students now in school shall be assigned to 
schools without the necessity of registration for the 
school year beginning in September, 1966, subject to the 
right of transfer, as hereinafter set forth.

"All students who will be in grades 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,
10, 11 and 12 during the school year beginning in Sep­
tember, 1966, shall have the right to request assignment 
to the former all Negro school or the former all white school 
nearest their residence. All such requests for assign­
ments must be made at the Administration Building of the 
Dougherty County School System, 601 Flint Avenue, Albany, 
Georgia, and must be made in person by the students, and 
each student must be (59) accompanied by his or her parent 
or guardian.

"Registration and request for assignment shall be 
made during the week of April 4-8, between the hours of 
8:30 and 5:00 P.M. J. J. Cordell, Superintendent of 
Education."
Q Now, what you have read, that was the notice that



125

was sent out in the first instance by way of appearing 
in each of the publications that you've named; that is, 
the Albany Herald, the Albany Journal and the Southwest 
Georgian once each, is that correct?
A No, I think it appeared twice„ I think the dates
were March 29 and April 2. I believe those are the dates 
it appeared.
Q Now, you are aware, are you not, Mr. Cordell, that
the Albany Journal and the Southwest Georgian are weekly 
papers, and you aren't suggesting that it appeared twice 
in those papers, are you?
A I have reference there to the Albany Herald on the
29th and 2nd. It did appear in the other two and that's 

C: why I hesitated. I wasn't sure whether it was twice or 
once but I think it must have been in the Albany Herald 
twice and in the others once. Well, I have the dates 'here. 
Q Are you sure, sir, that it appeared twice in the
Albany Herald?
A March 27 and March 30, according to the record I
(60) have here. The Albany Journal on March 25th and the 
Southwest Georgian on April 3.
THE COURT;

The what?
THE WITNESS;

April 3.



126

BY MR. KING:
Q April 3 or 30th?
A 3rd.

Q Now, then you're saying that it appeared twice in
the Albany Herald and once each in the Albany Journal and 
Southwest Georgian?
A That appears to be right.
Q Now, aside from that, it is your testimony that you
gave printed notices bearing that information that you've 
just read to students in the affected grades, is that cor­
rect?
A That's right,
Q And there was nothing else at this time?
A No.
Q Now, later did you have the occasion to do anything
else in terms of either extending the period - you did ex­
tend the period, did you not?
A Yes, at the direction of the Dougherty County Board
of Education, we extended the purpose for including Grades 
7, 8 and 9, the junior high school grades; and we did that 
on April 15; and notice to this effect, the same type notice, 
essentially the same notice, except including three addi­
tional grades was published in the Albany Herald on the 
15th, in (61) the Albany Journal on the 21st, April 21, and 
the Southwest Georgian on April 17; and this notice was



127

also sent home by the children in all of the schools.
Q It appeared once in each of the papers that you've
named?
A Yes.
Q That is, the second one?
A That's right.
Q And only the first one appeared twice in the Albany
Herald?
A That's right.
Q Now, calling your attention to the period covered
in the first notice, isn't it true that the spring holidays 
of the Dougherty County school system were in effect on 
Thursday through the following Monday,'* sir?
A Well, the holidays were Friday and Monday but there
was one day of registration period included which was Friday; 
yes, that's true.
Q Well, isn't it true, sir, that the school activi­
ties for the holidays commenced as of the noon hour on 
Thursday, the 8th, and continued through Monday; isn't 
that what happened?
A Not the noon hour. We dismissed school, I think
it was, at 2 o'clock.
Q Then, school functions ceased at 2 o'clock on the 8th
(62) and resumed on the Tuesday of the following week, 
isn't that true?



128

A Now, the 8th date; I think the 8th; you're talking
about the 7th, I think? Thursday was the 7th and Friday 
was the 8th?
Q Oh, I see, right, yes, the 7th, right.
A The 7th, yes, at 2 o'clock on the 7th, that's right.
Q And did not resume until the Tuesday following?
A The Tuesday following, that's right.
Q So, really there was about three days and a half
for actual registration for transfer, isn't that true?
A Well, this registration wasn't necessarily tied in
with routine activities of the school. This registration 
was open all day until 5 o'clock and also the next day.
Q Is it not true that these people who were respon­
sible for registration of children were teachers of the 
Dougherty County Board of Education, employed by the Board 
of Education?
A Yes but they stayed on the job and they registered
all day Thursday 'and all day Friday.
Q That was from 8:30 in the morning until 5 o'clock
in the afternoon?
A That's right, yes.
Q Why was there no use made of the radio and tele­
vision media for notice to be disseminated, Mr. Cordell?
A We didn't deem it to be necessary. We don't do
that (63) as a general thing with this kind of announcement.



129

Q Well, desegregation of the school system would not
be considered a very general phenomenon, would it, sir?
A Well, we didn't do it because we didn't think it
was necessary; I will just leave it at that,
Q Now, I ask you, how did you arrive at the arbitrary
five-day period, sir?
A Well, that was the direction of the Court order,
that it be done the first week in April,
Q What Court order was that, sir?
A I mean that was part of the original plan approved
by the Court. I believe that's what I'm saying; the ori­
ginal plan submitted by the Dougherty County Board of Educa­
tion and approved by the Court designated the first week in 
April as the period in which this transfer request would be 
made.

Q Is this to suggest sir that from the time that
the Board of Education submitted its original plan or the 
Plan that was approved by the Court, it elected not to 
alter its position in any way in conformity with the court 
order that was issued on August 4, 1964?
A No, we didn't change it.
Q You are aware, are you not, sir, that the Court or­
der, as issued by this Court, and the injunction by which 
you were bound, reads in part:
THE COURT:

Paragraph 5.



130

(64) MR. KING:
Paragraph 5, sir? Yes.

■— -Q "That the Defendant shall give timely notice to
all prospective pupils affected by the order of the choice 
open to them in order that they shall have ample opportu­
nity to exercise such choice”?
A Yes, I'm familiar with that.
Q You are aware of that?
A Yes.
Q You didn't make any determination as to whether five
days were adequate; you were just following the initial 
plan that was approved by the Court, is that correct?
A Well, we never had any complaints from anybody on
it. Nobody ever complained to me abcdt not being able to.
Q Would you answer the question, sir?
A Ask it again.
Q I said that you didn't make any independent in­
quiries about it?
A No.
Q You're just simply saying that you submitted it as
a part of the initial plan which was approved and you never 
changed it?
A Right.
Q Is there any reason procedurally or mechanically
justifying it not being extended, in your opinion, sir?



131

A Well, in addition to being timely, we would like
for (65) it to be as expeditiously as possible, so that 
we could proceed with the processing of these applica­
tions and making plans for the coming year. That's the 
only reason I had for it.
Q Well, it wouldn't substantially create any hardship
if it were extended two additional weeks, would it?
A Well, it would be a degree, whatever extension there
was would be a degree of hardship, I would presume, I 
wouldn't say it would be impossible, no; whatever degree 
it was extended would naturally retard it.
Q In light of your statement, sir, in terms of ex­
peditiously handling it, could you not as well have 
started it 2 or 3 weeks in advance of the time?
A It could be done, except in this kind of thing the
nearer the end of the year that it can be done, the better 
it is because you are closer to the approaching year and 
thus be more realistic about it and have fewer changes 
to be made in it when the new year gets here.
Q What do you mean "fewer changes", sir? You mean if
the student changed his mind?
A Well, moved out of town or for any reason wouldn't
be a part of the school system.
Q Well, that wouldn't affect you any way, if he moved
out of town, would it, sir?



132

A Yes, he would have registered and we would have gone
(66) through the process of transferring his papers and 
doing all of that work; and the nearer the end of the 
school we do it, the less of that we would have.
Q Oh, I see. So, that is the concern of the incon­
venience that you're talking about?
A Well, that's one of the reasons that I know of
that we would be affected.
Q It is the only one that you think of, is that right?
A That's right.
Q You said that was right?
A That's the only one that I think of right now that
would give us any problem.
Q Well, you have given thought to it, haven't you,
sir?
A No, I really haven't.
Q You have resided in this community how long, sir?
A 20-odd years.
Q It is true, based upon your knowledge and expe­
rience as a part of the community, that the majority of 
Negroes constitute the laboring class, working class, 
domestics and that sort of thing, sir?
A Yes, I agree to that.
Q It was requisite to registrate the transfer that
the student bring his parent or guardian, isn't that true?



133

A That's true.
Q Have you given any consideration to the fact that a
(67) substantial number of Negroes are in the class that 
we're concerned with and are employed in these capacities 
and wouldn't get home until 5:00 or later in the afternoon? 
A No, I don't know that we considered that in any of
our school activities and I had no complaint about it.; 
nobody complained to me that they couldn't come because 
of that fact.
Q You didn't predicate that determination on the fact
that there was an absence of complaints, did you, sir?
A What?
Q You didn't predicate the determination to set these
hours based on the absence of complaints?
A No, we set it and we had no complaint as a result
of it and consequently didn't change it.
Q Did you say you didn't have any?
A Nobody complained about that particular thing, no,
to me.
BY THE COURT:
Q Is that the same period that you carried on the
registration the previous year?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you have any complaint at that time about it?
A Haven't had any.



134

Q No complaints at any time about it?
A No sir.
(68) BY MR. KINGi
Q I ask you, sir, how many Negro students did you
have register for transfer from previously all Negro 
schools to previously all white schools, sir?
MR. WALTERS:

May I hand him this compilation that he has prepared 
at my request?
THE COURT:

Is that his memorandum?
MR. WALTERS:

Yes sir.
THE COURT:

It is not yours?
MR. WALTERS:

No sir.
THE COURT:

All right.
MR. WALTERS:

It was prepared for me by him, at my request.
THE WITNESS:
A Now, each year or what particular year?
BY MR. KING:
Q The past year, sir, that is '65-66?
A 245.
Q 245; what is the number registering from transfer



135

the coming year, "66-67?
A 629.
Q 629?
A Yes „
Q I ask you, sir, what was the number of transfers
from the following period, April 4 through April 8, 1966?
A I don't know. I have the total number of transfers
(69) here but I don't remember that number there. I could 
give you —  well, I couldn't; I don't remember, no.
Q Well, to the best of your recollection, do you re­
member what portion of the, approximately what portion of 
the 600 and something registered during that period?
A I would say close to 500, around 500.
Q And you would say 100 and something for the subse­
quent period, to the best of your recollection?
A Yes, that's about right.
Q Is there an ascertainable method whereby this Court
would be advised as to the exact number?
A Yes, I think I have that information. I think I
could get the exact number,
Q You think you would be able to get the exact number?
A Yes.
Q Where would it be recorded, sir?
A I think I have it in my office, although it would just
be incidental; it wasn't something that we had to have but I 
think though I have that information though I am not absolute­
ly positive.
Q Now, you were in the process - I believe that you



136

answered for both of those years, for the academic years 
'65-66 and '66-67?
A In numbers, yes.
Q Is it true that these notices that you have spoken
(70) of with reference to the first week in April and the
subsequent one on the 18th of April, I believe it was,
‘that they were taken to the schools and given to the prin­

ts
cipals?
A No, we called the Principals in and gave them the
notices and instructed the Principals to give them to the 
teachers and tell the teachers to tell the children to take 
them home.
Q To take them home?
A That's right.
BY THE COURT;
Q To the parents?
A To the parents, that's right.
BY MR. KING;.
Q None of them were sent by mail?
A No.
Q The affected grades were the 1st, 2nd through 3rd
grades; that is in the elementary schools?
A Well, the affected grades in the last notice was the
entire school system.
Q We're talking about the first one?



137

A The first notice was, yes, all of the elementary
schools, all elementary grades, 1st through 6th, and IQth, 
11th and 12th. That was the first notice, yes.
Q Did you give them any instructions as to how they
were to handle the first grade students in those notices?
(71) A No, there were no instructions given.
Q The application was just to apply to students gen­
erally, is that correct?
A They were just given to the students that were in
school, yes, to be carried home.
THE COURT:

You're talking about the first grade students - 
that question you asked, Mr. King - are you talking about 
students now in the first grade or students to be in the 
first grade?
MR. KING:

No, I'm talking about students who were in school. 
THE COURT;

Who were then in the first grade?
MR. KING:

Yes sir.
THE COURT:

In other words, handled the same way with them a s  

with all the others, is that it?
THE WITNESS:

Yes sir.



138

THE COURT:
I wasn't sure whether you meant prospective first 

grade or what.
BY MR. KING:
Q Then, the only notice, Mr. Cordell, that a pros­
pective student entering the first grade would get would 
be through either taking the Albany Herald, the Southwest 
Georgian or the Albany Journal, is that correct?
A It would be unless they had children in school that
brought notices, yes.
Q Mr. Cordell, as the Superintendent of Schools of the
(72) Dougherty County school system, it is true, is it 
not, that no Negro teachers are employed in previously all 
white schools or white teachers employed in previously all 
Negro schools?
A That's right.
Q Can you explain that, sir?
A Well, it's been traditional with the schools and
there1s been no change in it.
Q And that would be the extent of any explanation which
you have for it?
A That's right.
Q You were bowing your head "yes"?
A Yes.
Q I ask you, sir, isn't it also true that the School



139

System absorbs yearly a certain number of practice teachers 
in the school system, that in terms of permitting its 
classrooms, that is the Board of Education's classrooms 
to be used in conjunction with experienced teachers, prac­
tice teachers on assignment from various colleges?
A Yes, the colleges use our schools as laboratories
for apprentice teachers, yes.
Q Isn't it also true, sir, that Negro practice teach­
ers are not by the Board of Education permitted to practice 
teach in previously all white schools?
A Well, they've never been denied because they've
never asked for it but there's still the same traditional
(73) policy that we've had concerning any teacher to apply 
in case we were, but we haven't been asked to.
Q But your explanation of the failure there o f  Negro
practice teachers to practice teach in previously all white 
schools or vice versa, is that because of tradition that 
this has been done in the past and there has not been a de­
cision to change it, is that correct?
A That's right.
Q You keep asking, sir, or keep indicating that no­
body has made application: Have you made it known to the
practice teachers that they might make application to 
transfer?
A No.



140

Q Have you made it known to Negro teachers presently
in the System that they may make application to transfer 
to teach in previously all white schools or white teachers 
to make application to teach at previously all black 
schools?
A No.
Q So, you've given no indication to anybody who is
affected that what is traditional has changed, is that right? 
A No, I haven11.
Q Has the Board of Education authorized you to do that?
A No.

4  *X* hU *4* *4? *4* ‘4-* <4* <4*

(82) Q Now, I ask you, sir, the tradition which
you have indicated as expressing itself in terms of Negro 
teachers or resulting in Negro teachers teaching in pre­
viously all Negro schools and white teachers teaching in
previously all white schools, this i& the same.tradition
that is applicable to other staff employed by the Dougherty 
County Board of Education?
A No, no. We have a reading clinic in which we have
an integrated group of people working.
Q This is a reading clinic as distinguished from
teaching situation, is that right?
A That's right.
BY THE COURT:
Q "What is this, remedial reading?



141

A Yes, sir, remedial and children with special problems.
BY MR. KING:
Q This is calculated to ascertain or to deal with es­
tablishing specifically what the problem is, is that cor­
rect, when it comes to reading?
A Yes.
BY THE COURT:
Q Where is that conducted, Mr. Cordell?
A We have a separate building for it located on
Oglethorpe Avenue out here. We lease the building. It 
was previously a hosiery mill actually and we had to re­
novate (83) it and look after it.
Q It generally covers all of the grades in school
where the problem exists?
A Yes sir, they are primarily elementary grades.
Q Ordinarily they would be?
A Yes sir, primarily.
BY MR. KING:
Q And isn't it true, Mr. Cordell, that these persons
who work in the clinic for the coming year will function 
m  their respective schools; that is, being racially iden­
tified; that is, take Teacher X, who incidentally happens 
to be a Negro: She will work at the clinic with her stu­
dents or she will go over, if she's Negro, she will go 
to teach in all Negro school to deal with students over



142

in that area?
A When she leaves the clinic, she would do that, yes;
she would go back to all Negro school.

* * * * * * * * *
(84) DIRECT EXAMINATION 
BY MR. WALTERS;
Q Mr. Ccsdell, under the original decision of the
Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, what school year was the
(85) Dougherty County School System to be fully inte­
grated as pertains to pupils?
A '67-68.
Q -67-68?
A Yes.
Q Has the Board of Education of Dougherty County
completed full integration of the Dougherty County school 
system one year prior to that time?
A Yes, it will be completed in 166-67.
Q In other words, it has been speeded up from what
was held by the Court to be proper, it has been speeded up 
one year?
A That's right.
Q Now Mr. Cordell, some question was asked you as to
whether or not the Negroes did not comprise the working 
class; I'll ask you whether or not white mothers and 
fathers and white children both work in this day and time?



143

A Oh yes, yes.
Q I'll ask you as to whether or not, in your opinion,
the hours of 8:30 to 5:00, 8:30 in the morning until 5:00 
in the afternoon are adequate and sufficient for any parent or 
any student that wants to be sincere about their schooling 
and the schooling of their children to register them?
MR. KING:

Your Honor please, I object to his opinion.
(86) THE COURT:

Well, he's school administrator and he's experienced 
in these things; so, I think he can express an opinion 
about it.
MR. KING:

I think he's indicated —
THE COURT:

I think obviously his answer would be yes; other­
wise, he wouldn't have set these hours. I think it's a 
proper question.
BY.'MR. WALTERS:
Q Do you think those hours are adequate and sufficient
for registration or transfer, application to transfer?
A Yes, in that we had no complaint about it from the
Previous year or for any time that we've used those.
Q Mr. Cordell, I'll ask you if the great majority
here of students entering the First Grade in any given



144

year would not have brothers and sisters who are already 
in school?
A Yes, I would say the majority of them do.
Q And I'll ask you, Mr. Cordell, if the notice that
you've referred to were not sent home by each and every 
student in the school?
THE COURT:

Did you say "were not"?
MR. WALTERS:
Q Were sent home, if they were sent home?
A Yes, they were sent home.
Q Now Mr. Cordell, did the plan of operating the school
system of Dougherty County provide that the registration 
period (87) would be held beginning the first Monday in 
April of each year and continuing through Friday of that week 
of each year? That was the plan that was presented, was it 
not?
A As I remember it, it was; yes.
Q And that plan was approved, both by this Court for
that pxirpose and by the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, 
was it not?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Cordell, I'll ask you if since that time any
parent or any student has been to you as Superintendent of 
Schools and said, by reason of the fact that registration



145

was not held but one week, "I was not in a position to 
apply for a transfer?
A No, nobody has said that to me.
Q Mr. Cordell, I'll ask you, as Superintendent of
the School System of Dougherty County, Georgia, if a 
parent came to you and proved to your satisfaction that, 
due to illness or due to absence from the city, they were 
not available at that time and they wanted to transfer, 
would you submit such application to transfer to the 
Board of Education?
A Yes.
Q Do you have any opinion as to whether or not such
application would be approved?
A Well, I think they would.
(88) Q I'll ask you, Mr. Cordell, has any ap­
plicant by the Negro race to attend a previously all white 
school, to your knowledge, been declined that was made 
within the framework of the decision of the Court?
A No.
Q I'll ask you, Mr. Cordell, have you given explicit
instructions to all of the Principals of the affected 
schools that both Negro and white children are to be treat' 
ed alike as far as their educational processes are con­
cerned?
A Y e s .



146

Q I'll ask you, Mr. Cordell, if any Negro were to
come for registration and ask, which is the nearest white 
school, former white school teaching the class in which 
my child is in, if that information would be readily 
given to him?
A Yes.
Q I'll ask you, Mr. Cordell, have you or the Board of
Education by any trick or device - 
MR„ KING:

Your Honor please, these questions about whether 
this would take place are speculative and call for conclu­
sion which is really incompetent; that is, whether it would 
or would not. Now, he can say whether or not in the event 
that it was called to his attention what he would do; but 
this matter of phrasing the question, I would submit is 
improper.
(89) THE COURT:

Yes, of course, no witness could say what would 
happen. He can say what the policy is, what the routine 
is, what the practice is; but, of course, nobody could say 
what will happen except -- 
MR. WALTERS:

In reply to that, I might say there seems to be a 
lot of speculation and conjecture here because I haven't 
seen any parent or any pupil come into this Court and say



147

that by reason of any action, they have been denied any 
constitutional right guaranteed to them under the Consti­
tution.
Q Mr. Cordell, have you, by any trick or device,
attempted to deny the right of any Negro student to go 
to an all previously white school?
A No.
Q I exhibit to you what appears to be a school notice,
and which has two pieces of paper attached to it, and on 
the top page "given to all students week of March 29~April 
2 with instructions to student to carry notice home to pa­
rents". I'll ask you if you recognize that?
A Yes, I do.
Q I will ask the Clerk to identify this as Defendants’
No. 1. . . Now, Mr. Cordell, what I have handed you and
what is referred to as Defendants' Exhibit No. 1, is that 
a copy of the notice that was given to all of the students 
to carry home to their parents, as pertains to the regis­
tration week (90) of April 4 through April 8 of 1966?
A Yes, it is.
THE COURT:

Is that the paper I said I wanted to get in the
record?
MR. WALTERS:

That's one of the papers you said you wanted to get



148

in the record, Your Honor.
Q I exhibit to you another two sheets of paper, which
have been identified as Defendants' Exhibit No. 2, and 
which appears to be a notice that was sent, calling atten­
tion to parents of the registration being extended through 
Friday, April 18 to the 22nd, Monday to Friday; and I ask 
you if that is a copy of the notice that was given to the 
students with directions to take home to parents?
A Yes.
Q As pertains to that registration?
A Yes, it is.
Q Now, I'll ask you if this notice does not differ
from Defendants' Exhibit No. 1, in that three additional 
grades were added for the second week's registration?
A Yes, that's right.
Q I will ask you if the second week's registration --
THE COURT:

And also — ■
MR. WALTERS:
Q Yes sir, this is what I was fixing to ask - if during
the second week's registration you also extended the privi­
lege to the children or students in grades (91) other than 
Junior High School to another week for the purpose of trans­
fer?
A Y e s .



149

Q So, you actually had two weeks of transfers during
that period for those affected grades?
A Yes.
Q In the year 1964 and in the year 1965, all you had
was one week; is that correct?
A That1s right.
Q I exhibit to you, Mr. Cordell, what has been identi
fied as Defendants' Exhibit No. 3 and ask you what that 
is, Mr. Cordell?
A That's a photostatic copy of this notice as it ap­
peared in the newspaper.
Q And could you say at this time if the dates of
publication which are attached thereto are correct?
A To the best of my knowledge, they are.
Q And this ad was run in the Albany Herald on March
27 and 30th, the Albany Journal on March 25 and the South­
west Georgian on April 3?
A Yes.
Q I'll ask you what is the Southwest Georgian?
A That is a predominantly Negro newspaper.
Q Did the Board of Education or you as Superintendent
of the Board of Education try to hide from the Negro race 
the (92) mechanics of the operation of the Dougherty Coun­
ty school system?
A No.



150

Q I show you what has been identified as Defendants'
Exhibit No. 4 and ask you what that is?
A That's a photostatic copy of the second notice that
was published in these newspapers.
Q And are the dates there for that publication in the
Albany Herald on April 15, the Albany Journal on April 
21 and the Southwest Georgian on April 17 correct?
A Yes.
Q Now, the difference in the two newspaper ads was
the same difference that existed and appeared in the no- 
tices that were carried home by the students to their 
parents?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Cordell, I exhibit to you Defendants' Exhibit No
5, which appears to be a compilation of full time Negro 
students enrolled in previously all white schools; and I 
ask you if this was prepared under your direction and if it 
is correct?
A Yes.
Q I'll ask you, Mr. Cordell, how many Negro students
went to previously all white schools the first year of the 
change in the operation of the Albany public school system 
A 56.
(93) Q The second year, Mr. Cordell, how many
Negroes went to previously all white schools?



151

A 245.
Q And now for the coming year, how many have regis­
tered for previously all white schools?
A 629, which includes an estimate of 45 for the vo­
cational school.
Q The registration for the vocational school has
not taken place as yet?
A No.
Q And this was purely an estimate on your part?
A Yes, that's right.
Q Mr. Cordell, has any Negro teacher presently em­
ployed in the Dougherty County school system been to you 
and made application or request that they be transferred 
to a previously all white school?
A No.
THE COURT:

What was the answer?
THE WITNESS:

No.
BY MR. WALTERS:
Q Mr. Cordell, did any of the students, Negro students,
in the Albany High School last year, that is the school 
year 1965-66, did any of them come to you as Superintendent 
of the Schools, complaining of the manner in which they 
were being transported to the Albany High School?



152

A No.
(94) Q Did any of their parents come to you and
complain of it?
A No.
BY THE COURT:
Q Have they since done so?
A No sir.
BY MR. WALTERS:
Q Now, Mr. Cordell, there has been some testimony
relative to the question of the diminution in credits upon 
transfer from Monroe High School to Albany High School:
I'll ask you if it is the policy of the Albany High School, 
and as set forth by you as Superintendent, that all stu­
dents graduating from the Albany High School be treated 
alike as to earned credits?
A Yes.
Q In other words, would I be correct in saying, Mr.
Cordell, that you insist that all students who graduate 
from Albany High School earn the same credits for the 
same courses?
A Yes.
Q For one student to get full credit for graduation

a-purposes in physical education and for another student to 
get a quarter credit for a course in physical education 
would be somewhat of a discrimination against the students



153

already in Albany High School, would it not?
A Yes, I would think so.
Q By diminishing the credits where they did not con­
form (95) to the credits given in Albany High School, that 
is diminish- credit for students coming in to Albany High 
School, was there any distinction between Negroes and 
whites?
A No.

RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. KING:
Q Mr. Cordell, your response to counsel’s inquiry up­
on direct examination, regarding full integration in ad­
vance of the time designated by the Fifth Circuit, that was 
your response; is that true? That is, that you have at­
tained full integration of the school system in advance of 
the plan approved by the Court?
A All grades integrated, yes, this year; one year
ahead of the schedule, that's right.
Q Well, you understood, did you not, pursuant to that
decision that this Court said that that was minimal, that 
those provisions were minimal; you understood that, didn't 
you? I call your attention - you've read the decision?
A Yes, I read it.
THE COURT:

He said yes; he said he understood it.



154

MR. KING:
Well, I want to be sure.

THE COURT:
He said he understood it. There's no use tp read it 

to him; he said he understood it.
MRf KING:

Is the Court inhibiting me from asking him?
(96) THE COURT:

I am because there's no use to read it when he's 
already said he understood it and it would just be kill­
ing time.
BY MR. KING:
Q Did you say that you understood the whole decision
or this one provision?
THE COURT:

He understood what you asked him. You asked him if 
he understood that the Court said that those requirements 
were minimal and he said yes, he understood it.
BY MR. KING:
Q I ask you, sir, did you understand the Court to say
in the decision that, in the event the burden -- excuse me 
—  that the burden shall rest on the Defendant, meaning 
the Board of Education - to show cause why further ac­
celeration of complete desegregation of the County Schools 
should not be required? Are you aware of that?



155

A I have read it; yes, I read that.
Q Do you interpret that to mean, when it says "com­
plete desegregation", that it means teacher desegregation 
as well as student desegregation, sir?
A I didn't interpret it that way, no.
Q And that's the only reason to your knowledge why it
hasn't been desegregated, because you didn't interpret it 
that way?
A I'm not the sole man to decide those things but in
(97) my own interpretation I did not read that into it, no. 
Q Now, I call your attention, sir, to another inquiry
made of you on direct examination: Did I understand you to
say that notices were sent home by every student?
A Yes, I called the Principals into my office and
instructed them to take these notices and instruct the 
teachers to give one notice to each child and the child to 
carry it to his parents.
Q What I'm simply trying to say is, when you cate­
gorically asserted on direct examination that notices were 
sent home by every student, you mean that in your adminis­
trative capacity you gave instructions that this be done, 
is that correct?
A That's right.
Q You weren't attesting to the fact that you knew
this, is that right, sir?



156

A I couldn1t say absolutely that every child got
one; I couldn't say that but that was the instructions 
given.
Q The instructions you gave?
A And I saw evidence that it was done.
BY THE COURT:
Q Do you have any reason to think it wasn't done?
A No sir.
THE COURT:

Now, if you have any reason to think it wasn't done, 
Mr. King, I want you to produce it. In (98) other words, 
if you've got any evidence that it wasn't done, I want 
you to produce it. He said that he gave instructions 
that it be done; he has seen evidence that it was done; 
so, if you have anything to the contrary, I want you to 
produce it.
MR. KING:

Indeed I will. However, I submit to the Court the 
position of counsel in this case is consonant with the 
decree of the Court, which I take it the Court is cogni­
zant of.
THE COURT:

Is what?
MR. KING:

That is, the burden of proof, given the establishment



157

of the existence —
THE COURT:

All right.
MR. KING:

—  is upon the Defendant.
THE COURT:

He has testified and Mr. McNabb has testified that 
the instructions were given and notices were given, and 
they have reason to believe that it was carried out. Now, 
that's their positive testimony and by your constant 
questioning about it, you seem to indicate that you've 
got some idea or some evidence that these notices were 
not sent home. Now, what I'm saying is —
MR. KING:

No sir, I don't intend to. If the Court construes 
it that way, I want it understood that I don't intend to... 
(99) THE COURT:

All right, they have both testified - 
MR. KING:

I just wanted it to factually appear; that's all.
THE COURT:

Then, I see no reason to be continually asking these 
questions over and over again, which implies that you sus­
pect that it wasn't done. If you've got any evidence that 
it wasn't done, then let's get the evidence in here,



158

instead of just continually implying by these questions — - 
MR. KING:

Well, I don't intend, I want the record to be re­
plete; I don't intend to imply anything other than what it 
factually shows.
THE COURT:

All right.
* * * * * * *

(103) BY THE COURT:
Q One question that I have: There has been some (104)
inference made by the tone and nature of the questions that 
have been asked, that there's some dereliction, some failure 
qn the part of the administrative assistants to properly 
notify people about their opportunities for transfer; and 
there has been some suggestion made that people who are 
going to have a child in the First Grade might not have 
known about the fact that they could register the child in 
either a previously all Negro school or a previously all 
white school.

Now, since I have children in school myself, I know 
that it is the custom in the system in which my children 
are pupils that the only way that the Board of Education 
has to communicate with the parents is through the news­
papers or by word of mouth in the community, or by send­
ing a notice home by the children. I don't know of any



159

other way that the Board has to communicate with the parents 
Now, is that the way the Board customarily communi­

cates with parents in the Albany school system?
A Yes sir.
Q In that way?
A Yes sir.
Q By publication in the newspaper, new stories in
the newspaper, and sending notices home by the children, 
and by putting the word out in the community generally; is 
that the way?
(105) A Yes, sir.
Q Now, you say these notices were sent home by pupils,
all pupils in the schools carried them home. Now, of 
course, that means that if anybody had a child who was 
going to be in the First Grade and they then had a child 
who was already in some grade in the school, the notice 
went home by that child?
A Yes.
Q Now, let's go to the situation where we have a
couple who have not previously had any children in school, 
a newly married couple relatively, and they've got a child 
who is now going to be in the First Grade, and this is the 
first child they will have had in school: I don't pre­
sume that you know that they've got a child who is going 
to be in school until you hear from them in some way,



160

do you?
A No sir.
Q In other words, they1 re out there and they have
a child that's gomg to be in school, but is there any way 
that you can communicate with them, other than through 
the newspaper or through word of mouth in the community, 
or through them learning from other parents who have 
children in school of what the procedures are?
A No sir.
Q Is there any way you can communicate with them?
A No sir.
(106) Q Is there any way you can communicate
with them?
A No sir, I don't know of any way, no sir.
Q Has that always been true, is that the way you get
the word out in the community?
A Yes sir.
Q Is that the way you did it this time?
A Yes sir.
Q And was the same notice, which was the notice
published in the newspaper and the word of mouth in the 
community, was that the same way that, white parents in 
the community found out about their opportunity to regis­
ter a First Grade child?
A Yes, sir.



161

Q And was that same procedure used to notify the
Negro parents in the community, if there were any, who 
were going to have a child in the First Grade?
A Yes sir.
Q Was there any discrimination at all about it?
A No sir.
THE COURT:

All right, any other questions?
MR. WALTERS:

I have one other.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. WALTERS:
Q Mr. Cordell, relative to families moving into Albany
during the school year or during the summer months (107) and 
not during the registration period, are those students 
given the opportunity to go to the school of their choice, 
to a former all w life or former all Negro school closest 
to their residence?
A Yes sir.
THE COURT:

All right, Mr. King.
RECROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. KING:
Q Mr. Cordell, you are aware of the multiple nursing
schools or pre-school nurseries that they have in the City?



162

A Yes, I know they have some, yes*
Q What, if anything, did you do to ascertain from
those supervisors the names of students who would be going 
into the public schools the coming year?
A I don't know that we did anything.
Q You are aware of the number of the radio stations
that Albany boasts of, are you not, sir?
A Yes.
Q How many?
A Oh, I'm not aware of the number. I don't know wheth­
er I know the number or not, really; there are 3 or 4.
Q There is one by the name of WGPC?
THE COURT:

We don't have to go into that. Just state the number 
THE WITNESS:

3 or 4.
(108) BY MR, KING:
Q 3 or 4?
THE COURT:

I'll take notice of the fact that Albany, Georgia, 
has radio stations. Go ahead.
BY MR. KING:
Q And you're aware that it has a TV-station?
A Yes.



164

jin the phrasing of the question; and he's asking what 
Lid be done futuristically is not proper. 

jSY MR. WALTERS:
3 What has been the policy in the past, since the 
change in the operation of the Albany school system?
I Well, if they come in and say that they didn't 
register during the regular time, a first year child, we 
(usually ask them why they didn't come in; and if it is 
some legitimate reason, we register them where they want 
to go.
SR. KING:

I have no further questions for this witness.
EE COURT :

You may go down, Mr. Cordell.
All right, who do you have next, Mr. King?

SR. KING:

The Plaintiff calls Mr. Herbert Haley, please.
SHE COURT:

All right, we'll take a recess at this time until 
- until 2:45 o'clock. I thought this might have been 

'ae last witness and that’s the reason I ran beyond the 
,e9ular recess time.

LUNCH RECESS: 1:10 PM to 2:45 PM - AUGUST 10, 1966.



163

BY THE COURT:
Q Mr. Cordell, have you ever used radio station or
TV station as a means of communicating with parents of 
school children?
A In some emergencies, we have.
Q In some emergency?
A Yes.
Q But not in administrative affairs?
A No sir.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALTERS:
Q Mr. Cordell, I want to ask you one further ques­
tion: A student who is entering the First Grade for the
first time in September of 1966, whether he be a resident 
of Dougherty County, Georgia, a life-long resident of 
Dougherty County, Georgia or a newly arrived resident of 
Dougherty County, Georgia, who has not during the pre­
scribed time registered for school, who either now or in 
September, for the first time, comes to register for school; 
is he at that time given (109) the opportunity to go to 
the school of his choice, be it former Negro or former 
all white?
MR. KING:

If Your Honor pleases, I would object to the ques- 

The Court has already enunciated what is appropriatetion.



165

MR. HERBERT P. HALEY
called as adverse witness by Plaintiff, being duly sworn, 
testified on

CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. KING:
Q Would you state your full name for the record,
please?
A Herbert Preston Haley.
Q Mr. Haley, would you indicate whether or not you
are a member of the Dougherty County Board of Education?
A I am.
Q And in what capacity do you serve on that Board?
A I serve as President of the Board.
Q How long have you presided as President of the
Board
A It1s a matter of record; about 2 or 3 years; I
haven't looked it up.
Q Mr. Haley, calling your attention specifically to
the failure of the Dougherty County Board of Education to 
integrate the teaching staff, I ask you, sir, isn't it 
true that the policy of the Board in failing to so inte­
grate the teaching staff is based upon the failure of the 
Fifth Circuit in its decision to specifically or affirm­
atively require that?
A Would you shorten up the question a little bit?



166

And if you could speak it without the word 11 f ai lure", I
think I would understand it better.
Q Do you understand the question, sir?
A No, I don’t.

(1 1 1 ) Q You do agree, do you not sir, that the
Board of Education has not integrated its teaching staff?
A Right.
Q Isn't it true that the reason why it hasn't inte-
grated racially its teaching staff is because the Fifth 
Circuit issued no affirmative decree, insisting that the
Board so integrate?
A Well, this may have some bearing on it. You seem
to be asking whether or not the Board will obey the court.
Q Did you understand the question, sir?
A I'm not sure that I did. It's an involved question
Q You are a graduate of MIT, sir?
A I am.
Q And your problem is that you fail to understand the
question?
A The phrasing of the question is such that it's dif­
ficult for me to answer it.
Q Is it not true that the Board of Education, of
which you are the President, has failed to integrate the 
teaching staff of this County? Can you answer that?
A I will say that the teaching staff of this County



167

has not been desegregated.
Q Then, are you suggesting that it represents no
failure, as you view it, to integrate?
A We simply have not integrated.
(112) Q And why have you simply not integrated,
sir?
A There was no apparent need at this time.
Q What constitutes need, in the judgment of the Board,
sir?
A The furtherance of quality education for all of
the children of Dougherty County.
Q And in what way, in the judgment of the Board,
does the integration of the teaching staff prove disruptive 
or otherwise- reduces the quality of education for this Coun­
ty?
A The issue has not been drawn. We have never taken
a vote on whether to employ -
Q I didn't ask you whether you had taken a vote, sir.
I am asking you whether you would respond to that ques­
tion?
A Well, I think, as Mr. Cordell phrased it, tradition­
ally white teachers have taught in the formerly white 
schools and colored in the formerly colored schools.
THE COURT:

Mr. King, I want to point this out because it relates



168

relates to your use of language in the way you propound 
your questions and that apparently is causing tfre witness 
some difficulty in answering. There's nothing in the or­
der of the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals that I see 
that requires the Board of Education pf Albany po inte­
grate. So, when you ask him the question, "your failure 
to integrate" and so on, you imply that there was some 
mandate from the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals for him 
to do so.
(113) MR. KING:

I would say that this is the Court's construction 
of what counsel is saying but counsel never intended that 
that construction or that type of construction would be 
gleaned, Your Honor.
THE COURT:

Well, you've used the language, if that's not what 
you mean. You referred to the mandate of the Fifth Cir­
cuit Court of Appeals and you used the term "integrate".
The Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals did not require inte­
gration; it required the abolition of segregation; and the 
two things are different. So, I think if you would relate 
your question to the mandate of the Fifth Circuit as is, 
the witness would probably have no difficulty in answering.
In other words, there was nothing in the mandate of the Fifth 
Circuit Court of Appeals, as I interpret it -



169

MR. KING:
And counsel neither, Your Honor.

THE COURT:
Just a minute! —  that required the Board of Edu­

cation to require by order and procedure, to require 
Negro teachers to teach in a white school or white teach­
ers to teach in a Negro school as formerly constituted. 
There's nothing in that mandate that requires that. So, 
when you propound your question the way you have, "your 
failure to integrate" and so on, you imply that there was 
some requirement that it be done. I just would like for 
counsel to have it in mind and the (114) witness and the 
Court, that that is not the mandate of the Fifth Circuit 
Court of Appeals, as I view it.

All right, go ahead.
BY MR. KING:
Q Without imputing requirement as the decree of the
Fifth Circuit that you in those words integrate, I ask 
you, sir, whether or not the Board of Education of Dough­
erty County has failed to integrate its teaching staff 
racially?
A I say again that we -
MR. WALTERS:

Just a minute, Mr. Haley! I have to concur with 
Your Honor, "has failed to integrate" is not proper. I



170

think he has a perfect right to ask this witness as to 
whether or not the teaching staffs are integrated or 
segregated; but when he does imply by using the word 
"failure", as I understand the law - and maybe I’m inca­
pable of understanding it - this issue comes down as to 
whether or not persons of a particular race are being 
denied constitutional rights by reason of their race.

It's strange to me that at this stage of the hear­
ing, I haven't heard of any Negro school teacher applying 
to teach a school and saying to this board "you've de­
nied me the right to teach in X school because of my race; 
and, therefore, you've denied me my constitutional right. 
(115) And I object to his use of the word "failure", and 
ask the Court to instruct him, as it has already done, to 
frame his question without using the word "failure".
MR. KING:

I would like to make an observation responsive to 
counsel's objection. First of all, I would urge upon the 
Court that we aren’t adjudicating the right of teachers 
to apply for a transfer, nor does it become relevant, I 
urge upon this Court, as to whether or not a teacher, 
black or white, did in fact make an application for trans­
fer. We're adjudicating the rights of these students; 
these students who are the Plaintiffs in this case are en­
titled to a desegregated education.



171

THE COURT:
Well, just ask him if he has required --- 

MR. KING:
This was responsive to the observation that he made. 

THE COURT:
Ask him if he has required white teachers to teach 

only in the white schools - 
MR. KING:

Well, I don't want to ask him that.
THE COURT:

You don't want to ask him?
MR. KING:

No sir, I don't.
THE COURT:

That's really the thing at issue, because there's 
nothing in the mandate of the Fifth (116) Circuit Court of 
Appeals that required him to order a Negro teacher to teach 
somewhere else or a white teacher to teach somewhere else. 
It's a question of whether they have done away with the 
forcible segregation and have made it possible for inte­
gration to take place. Obviously, they are not required, 
and when you use the word "you have failed" to do so and so, 
you imply that there was some obligation.
MR. KING:

I would submit to the Court that, as I understand the



.172

law coming from the Fifth Circuit, it is to the effect 
that this Board of Education has an affirmative responsi­
bility to disestablish - 
THE COURT:

You mean you interpret the mandate of the Fifth 
Circuit Court of Appeals —
MR. KING:

I said, disestablish this long history of main­
tenance of segregation.
THE COURT:

Do you mean you interpret the mandate of the Fifth 
Circuit Court of Appeals to mean that this Board of Edu­
cation has got to go to some Negro school teachers and 
tell them, whether they want to or not, "you've got to go 
over here to this formerly white school and teach whether 
you want to or not"; and that they've got to go to -white 
school teachers and. tell them, "Even though you don't want 
to, you have got to go to this (.117 other school and teach", 
is that what you're saying?
MR. KING:

No, not in those words because, as the Court; is 
putting it, you certainly are not permitting a school sys­
tem to operate at optimum; you are more occupied with the 
races of people than you are the functioning of the system.



173

THE COURT:
Who is more occupied with the race question? Are 

you suggesting that the Board is more occupied with it 
than you are, than the people whom you purport to repre­
sent?
MR, KING:

No; this was only in response to the Court. The 
Court made inquiry of me as to whether I was saying cer­
tain things and, of course, I was attempting by analogy 
to respond.
THE COURT:

Well, the evidence so far is that there has not been 
any denial, or rather the evidence so far does not show 
any denial on the part of the Board of any desire, re­
quest or application for a Negro teacher to transfer to 
a formerly all white school to teach; and it doesn’t show 
any denial on their part of an application or request or 
desire on the part of any white teacher to transfer to 
any formerly all Negro school.

Now, if that can be shown and if it can be shown 
that their refusal to grant the application was based (118) 
solely on race, then this Board, of course, is not com­
plying with the mandate of the Fifth Circuit Court of Ap­
peals. But just to say that, because there has been no 
integration of the faculties, that there has been a failure



174

to comply with the mandate of the Fifth Circuit Court of 
Appeals, to my mind that falls short.
MR. KING:

No, I didn’t say that, Your Honor. I haven’t 
been challenging what the Fifth Circuit did or did not say 
in this specific instance.
THE COURT:

All right, go ahead with your question now that 
we seem to understand one another.
ME. KING:

Well, I simply pose the same question, the one 
that the Court has accepted, and that is the failure to 
integrate the —
THE COURT:

That's not the question that I was propounding.
MR. KING:

Well, I said the Court used that language; this is 
the same language -- 
THE COURT:

No, that's the language that I'm saying you should 
not use, "failure to integrate." They are not under any 
affirmative duty to integrate; they're under an affirmative 
duty not to segregate. They're not under any affirmative 
duty to integrate.



175

Is the Court prohibiting me from asking him whether 
they have failed to integrate -- ?
(119) THE COURT:

No, you can ask the question but if the witness 
wants to decline to answer it, I will sustain him because 
I think it's a loaded question; it!s a loaded question.
It is not a question that's based fairly on the decision 
of the Court; just like you might him, "have you failed 
to gold-plate all of the drinking fountains". Well, he's 
not under any obligation to gold-plate the drinking 
fountains. You're asking him now, have you "failed to 
integrate", when he's not under any affirmative duty to 
integrate. They're under a duty not to segregate but 
they're not under any affirmative duty to integrate; and 
that's the point.

You can go ahead and ask the question.
BY MR. KING:
Q The teaching staff of the Dougherty County school
system, that is those persons who are employed as teachers 
in the various schools of this County are employed in 
previously all white or previously all Negro schools con­
sonant with their ethnic identification, is that correct, 
sir?
A This happens to be because teachers generally apply

MR. KING:



176

to teach a certain grade in a certain school; and their 
contract is to do this, as I understand it. I don't 
handle this end of the thing but this is mu understanding 
of it.
Q What represents the source of your understanding
in that particular, sir?
(120) A Well, conversation with the Superintendent
of Schools.
Q In conversation with the Superintendent of Schools?
A Yes.
Q And it just works out that way; that is, that Negro
teachers are hired at previously all Negro schools and white 
teachers are hired at previously all white schools; is 
that true?
A This is what has happened in the course of tradi­
tion .
Q This has happened in the course of tradition?
A Yes.
Q Well, didn't you testify on deposition^ sir, res­
ponsive to why the teaching staff had not been integrated, 
that this was out of regard to quality, out of regard 
and in deference to the maintenance of qulaity education?
MR. WALTERS:

Will you state where you are referring to?



177

Q Isn't that what you stated?
MR. WALTERS:

Will you state where you are referring to in 
the deposition?
MR. KINGs

This is not required in the question that I asked. 
THE COURT:

Yes, counsel is entitled to know where you are 
reading from?
MR. KING:

I don't propose to be reading, Your Honor. 1 
said isn't that what you testified to?
(121) MR. WALTERS:

If Your Honor please, it is proper to call the 
witness' attention to the question and to the answer, 
and I think that counsel is entitled to have the informa­
tion as to where in the deposition it is.
THE COURT:

That's right. Show the witness where it is you 
contend he said that.
MR. KING:

In my place, I state to this Court I directed no 
specific question to him in the record of the deposition.
I said "Isn't it true that you testified in the deposition

MR. KING:



178

to the effect" that such and such a thing; and I say 
that this is an appropriate question and I urge upon 
the Court that I be permitted to get a response to it.
THE COURT:

All right, go ahead but, if Mr. Walters objects 
to it -- 
MR. WALTERS:

Your Honor please, I still say if he is going to 
call his attention and ask him about testimony given in 
the deposition, the proper procedure is to refer him to 
the question and the answer given in the deposition and 
to refer counsel and the Court to the place in the de­
position where he is talking about.
THE COURT:

Yes* certainly there can be no harm in that. If 
the man so testified, there can't be any harm, in letting 
him see the deposition and in letting opposing counsel 
see the deposition and letting the Court see the deposition.
(122) MR. KING:

Strike the question, sir. I. assume the Court is 
sustaining the objection?
THE COURT:

I'm sustaining the objection unless you allow the 
witness to see the place in the deposition that you are re­
ferring to.



179

I referred to no specific place. Your Honor.
THE COURT:

Well, go ahead to some other question.
BY MR. KING:
Q You did testify on the deposition, did you not,
on the taking of your deposition?
A My deposition was taken, yes.
Q I ask you, sir, have you not previously testified
under oath, responsive to inquiries regarding why Negro 
teachers were - taught at previously all Negro schools and 
white teachers taught at previously all white schools, 
that this was out of regard and out of deference to the 
maintenance of quality education within the system?
A Yes, in this context:
MR. WALTERS:

Now, if Your Honor please, again I interpose the 
same objection that I previously interposed.
THE COURT:

I sustain the objection. Show him the place in his 
deposition where he said it and let him see it and let 
opposing counsel know what page you are referring to, so 
opposing counsel can follow it.
(123) MR. KING:

If Your Honor pleases, for the purpose of perfecting

MR. KING:



180

the record, I would like to get the response.
THE COURTr

I'm sustaining the objection.
MR. KING:

I see. The Court is prohibiting any response?
THE COURT:

No, 11m not prohibiting any response; I'm simply 
requiring that you let him see the place in the deposition 
to which you refer before he responds. That's all I'm 
requiring.
MR. KING:

I asked the witness whether he previously testi­
fied, Your Honor.
THE COURT:

I sustain the objection. If you want to proceed 
by letting him see the deposition, you can get an answer 
to your question.
BY MR. KING?
Q I call your attention, Mr. Haley, to the deposition
and I ask you whether or not you were asked the following 
question -- 
THE COURT :

What page, so counsel may know where you are reading? 
BY MR. KING:
Q 89. "Now, you went on to give a description of the



181

Board of Education being that of a quality education, I 
believe you characterized this and in that regard you made 
reference to the necessity of preserving the relationship 
between students and teachers; do you (124) remember this?" 
And you said "yes". Do you remember that, sir?
A Yes, I remember some such statement as this. You're
not reading the full text; you’re paraphrasing it. I re­
member about the point that you speak.
Q Are you accusing me of not reading what is here, sir?
THE COURT:

He's not accusing you of anything; if you will just 
let him look at the deposition, Mr. King, you will be fair 
with the witness and we can get along.
MR. WALTERS:

May I open the original deposition?
THE COURT:

Yes, open the deposition.
THE WITNESS:
A I understood that he was summarizing.
MR. KING:

I certainly want the record to show, Your Honor, 
that I haven't attempted to be knowingly unfair to any wit­
ness .
THE COURT:

I haven't said that you were. But I'm saying, to



182

be sure that you're not, let the witness see a copy of 
his deposition.

(Original deposition handed to witness by Mr.
Walters) . . .

BY MR. KING:
Q Will you respond to the question, sir?
A What is the question?
Q Whether or not that was the question and the res­
ponse was "yes"?
(125) THE COURT:

Ask the question again, Mr. King, new that he's had 
a chance, to look the question over.
BY MR,' KING:
Q Starting at the bottom of page 89: "Now, you went to
give the description of the Board of Education being that of 
quality education, I believe you characterized this, and in 
that regard you made reference to the necessity of preserving 
■flue relationship between students and teachers; do you re­
member this"?
A Yes. Now, if you will pause for a moment, please no­
tice that that is marked "question:"; and when;;I said "para­
phrase" a while ago, you see you were reading your own words; 
you were not reading mine.
Q I asked you whether or not that question was asked,
sir, and 'I ask you whether or not that was your response?



183

A X didn't understand that that was your question, as

you put it.
Q But now that you're advised, will you answer it?
A I took it to- be a paraphrase here this afternoon
rather than a paraphrase at the time of the deposition.
I think I'm with you now.
Q Well, would you respond? Is that the question that
was asked you and is that the response?
A That's right.
THE COURT:

Now, you see the value of letting the witness see 
the deposition; he knows what you're talking about. All 
right, go ahead with your question.
(126) BY MR. KING:
Q 1 call your attention to the following question which
immediately follows, Mr. Haley, and ask you whether or not 
this question wasn't asked you: "This need that you spoke
of reflects, does it not, the need in your own view and not 
presumably expressed by the Board, of preserving an educa­
tional system much as it is in relationship to white teachers 
teaching white children and Negro teachers teaching Negro 

children"?
A The answer I gave is, "At this point in the socio­
logical evolution of events, 1 think so, yes."
Q Now, what do you mean by the response to that, sir,



184

when you say "at this point in the sociological evolution 
of events# I think so"?
A Well# at this point in time, I think this is in the
best interest of education. The school board, the ad­
ministration, the faculty is concerned with preserving the 
quality of education now. It's loaded, it's stressed with 
many events that impinge upon this teacher-pupil relation­
ship, Whatever is extraneous to the teaching and learning 
is not a good thing for education? and at this point in 
time, 1 think that everybody has got all they can do to 
do well what they have undertaken to do. This Board thinks 
it's doing a pretty good job of desegregating the school 
system,
Q In consequence of this, you are submitting that this
(127) is at present the affirmative policy of the Dougherty 
County Board of Education to have Negro teachers teach at 
previously all Negro schools and white teachers teach at 
previously all white schools; is that correct?
A This is not quite right.
Q And in what particular is it incorrect, sir?
A In the proposition that the Board has not affirma­
tively addressed itself to this proposition of desegregating 
the faculty. It has not felt that it had any duty to do so. 
It has put its greatest effort on doing what it set out to 
do and what was ordered by the Fifth Circuit to do,



185

Q What do you understand the order of the Fifth Cir­
cuit to you to be, sir?
MR. WALTERS:

Your Honor pleases, this is a layman and I think 
this is a legal question.
THE COURT:

In what respect, Mr. King? Let's at least narrow 
it down to some particular.
MR. KING:

:;i want to know what affirmative responsibilities 
does he understand the Fifth Circuit imposed on him, the 
Board of Education.
THE COURT:

Well, in what regard, with regard to pupils, with re­
gard to buildings, with regard to transportation; in regard 

to what?
MR. KING:

As regards the desegregation of the school system, sir.
(128) THE WITNESS:
A Well, I think we111 just have to get out the text

land:read it.
BY MR. KING:
Q Well, didn't you just a moment ago assert that as
you understood the Fifth Circuit's decree, that it did not 
require that, and I simply want to know what do you understand



186

it required?
A I recognize nothing -
MR. WALTERS:

Just a minute, Mr. HaleyI May I hand him a copy of 
the decision if he's going to be called on for this?
THE COURT:

Yes,hand him a copy of it. I can't remember it my­
self.

(Copy of Fifth Circuit opinion handed witness)
THE WITNESS:
A The order here deals with assignment of pupils to
schools, the operation for the fall term of '64, each per­
son attending vocational school —
BY MR. KING:
Q Mr. Haley, are you reading for my benefit, sir?
A Well, I was just refreshing my memory and kind-of
mumbling along.
Q Well, since you were doing it audibly, I wondered
whether you were doing it for my edification, sir?
A Perhaps I can say this and satisfy your question.
I have not understood that the Court order required the 
Board to mix the faculty.

(129) Q I see and, in consequence of this, the Board
has not addressed itself to that at all?
A This is correct. It's had its hands full dealing



187

with what it was ordered by the Court to do, is the plain 
truth of the matter.
Q When you say "had its hands full", what do you mean
by that?
A Well, the Board, the administration and the faculty
have been working in recent years under conditions of more 
of a strain than heretofore, because of doing the things 
ordered by the Court. These things take up the time of the 
Board at meetings; they take up the time of the Board out 
of meetings thinking about them; they take up the adminis­
tration's time; they take up * the teachers' time. There 
are many things that arise out of this that were not going 
on before and it's just a matter of how many balls a juggler 
can have in the air at once; he might drop some.
Q You do acknowledge that you1ve had over two years
to deal with this matter, haven't you, sir?
A Well, yes.
Q Sir?
A Yes.
Q Hasn't the desegregation of the schools gone pretty
smoothly in your view, sir, in this community; that is, the 
desegregation of the pupils?
(130) A I think it's gone moderately well. I think
I said so earlier. Nevertheless, I think that it has been 
at the limit of the strength of everybody concerned to keep



188

it on the track,
G To do what, sir?
A To keep it on the track.
Q To, keep it on the track?
A To keep matters within bounds and still do a decent
job of teaching.
Q I see. In other words, the integration of pupils
has brought about considerable stress in the administra­
tion of education?
A This is right and in the teaching area.
G Sir?
A And in the teaching area.
Q And what, in your judgment, is the causative factor,
causing considerable stress on teachers in teaching a black
and white child instead of all white children as before?
A The nature of man, I suppose.
Q The nature of man?
A Yes.
Q Whatever do you mean by that, sir, "the nature of
man"?
A Exactly what I said, sir.
Q You do submit thi s as a reason, is that right?
A Yes.
(131) Q Well, would you communicate to me the siĝ
nificance of your response and that is "the nature of man"?



189

I don't think we need to go into that area. I in­
terpret that as the witness meaning human nature,the nature 
of human beings. I don't think we need to go into that.
BY MR. KING:
Q Do you mean racial antipathy?
THE COURT:

I don't think its necessary to go into any philosophy. 
I understand what the witness means.
MR. KING:

I think that it's essential, Your Honor, in terms of 
completing this record to know exactly what he means. He 
certainly is here in official capacity representing the 
Board of Education and this is vital.
THE COURT:

Then, ask him some specific question; don't just ask 
him a question about some nebulous thing that calls for 
philosophy and all of that business about the nature of 
man and so on; just ask him some specific question.
MR. KINGr

Because it is nebulous, Your Honor, and he's the 
author of it, it becomes important for us to know.
THE COURT:

Well, he said it because you kept wanting him to 
say something and he said that, and now you want to spend

THE COURT:



190

an hour cross-examining him about that. Ash him some 
question that gives him an opportunity to (132) answer with 
definiteness, instead of some philosophy, How would that 
help us?
MR. KING:

I would submit to the Court, in counsel's judgment 
this witness hasn't been exactly cooperative, Your Honor; 
and I think it's required.
THE COURT:

I think he's being rather frank with you; I think 
he's being rather straight forward. Go ahead and ask 
him some question that he can answer with some definiteness, 
BY MR. KING:
Q Now, when you say "the nature of man", by that do
you mean the basic antipathy and hostility born of race?
A I thought we just over this, about the nature of man,
Q But since I don't understand what you mean, sir,
I'm asking you whether you mean that or not?
A I understood the Judge to say that we need not
philosophize like this and I think that's what your question 
calls for.
THE COURT:

He is asking you now specifically, is that one of the
things that you had in mind when you used that term. He's
asking you that question.



191

A Well, I don't know that this is an inherent thing
in man.
(133) BY MR. KING:
Q I didn't ask you whether it was inherent, sir?
A I do say that similar things in the classroom do
give rise to problems which interfere with the course of 
education and I think some of this is a matter of racial 
difference.
Q And when you say "give rise", you mean the mere
presence of black students integrated with white students 
in the classroom creates the problems that you say repre­
sent things of gravity that the Board of Education has to 
deal with; is that correct? You're shaking your head "yes", 
sir?
A I think that's right.
THE COURT:

Well, hasn't the Supreme Court of the United States 
said that? Didn't they say that?
MR. KING:

I don't know, sir, what they've said.
THE COURT:

In other words, that's the reason that they initially 
started out with the deliberate speed philosophy, because 
fhe Supreme Court realized that there are racial overtones

THE WITNESS:



192

and that's -- 
MR. KING;

I would certainly say -- 
THE COURT:

— - so I presume that that's what the witness has in 
mind, is that that that is a problem; and, as a matter of 
fact, the Federal Courts have recognized it consistently 
since the Brown decision, that (134) that is a problem. So,we 
presume that that ...is a problem.. Now., go, on to: ..something else. 
MR. KING:

However, I would submit, Your Honor, if the Court is 
offering that as justification -- 
THE COURT:

I'm not offering anything as justification; I'm trying 
to terminate the philosophical questions because it's well 
recognized by everybody that that is one of the problems and 
that's the reason that the Boards have been allowed to pro­
ceed with some gradual approach. If it were not a problem 
like that, there would have been no point --

All right, go ahead.
BY MR. KING:
Q Now, I call your attention, sir, to the deposition
which you gave; you do recall your deposition having been 
taken in this case, sir?
A As I've said earlier, yes.



193

Q I call your attention to page 93 and ask you whether
or not you remember this question being put to you: "Now 
finally, Mr. Haley, I want to ask you, based upon the dis­
cussion which you had, may have given with deference to 
the Fifth Circuit's apparent present consideration of the 
problem of integration of faculty* is this the predicate 
upon which you base your remarks concerning whether or not 
you will or will not do anything affirmative to integrate 
(135) the teaching staff of this system"; and, of course, 
you eventually respond to the question at line 16, by say­
ing that "my answer to that would be no." And, of course 
you go on to say —  Is that correct, sir?
A I'm trying to follow it here. (Witness referring
to deposition) . . .
Q I would simply suggest at line 16; it seems that
that represents your answer; that represents your answer 
ultimately given to that question, does it not, sir?
A I'm trying to look at what the question is. I'm
a slow reader.
Q Oh, I'm sorry?
A Here again, this is a difficult and involved ques­
tion. . . May I read it to you?
Q. No, I have already read it, sir.
A All right
Q Is that not what you said in the deposition?
A When I get through reading it, I'm not quite sure



194

that it asks and it also feeds in certain elements.
Q Is that the question? Is that not the question
that was asked you?
A I presume it is. I've no tape recorder in my head.
I remember some such question.
Q Is it not also true, sir, that ultimately you
respond in the negative to that at line 16?
A Yes.
(136) Q And you go on further at line 22 to say
this: "I will say that the Fifth Circuit has not forbidden
us to do this; they have not ordered to do this at the point 
in time and it does not appear to be prudent of the applica™ 
tions that have come in to this date"?
A "Prudent of the applications" doesn't make much sense
I may have said that; I don't deny it.
THE COURT;

What is that "prudent of the applications"?
MR. KING:

Yes.
THE COURT:

That doesn't mean anything to me, I don't know wheth 
er it does to the witness; if so, he can explain it.
MR. KING:

This is why I asked him, Your Honor.
THE COURT;

It may be that the stenographer misunderstood.



195

A There must be a garble here and I was trying to
think what I might have said. There's probably an omission 
there. It might be something like this: At this point in 
time it does not appear to be prudent. That still wouldn't 
make sense.
MR. WALTERS:

Of course, if Your Honor please, I submit that the 
proper way to question the witness is to ask him the ques­
tion at this time; and then if he (137) wants to impeach 
him by proving that he made under oath previously contra­
dictory statements, to call his attention, rather than to 
take this deposition and say, "Didn't I ask you this and 
didn't I ask you that." This is highly improper but I am 
not objecting in the interest of time.
MR. KING:

Well, I am addressing myself to the witness with 
reference to this deposition.
Q What is your response, sir, with reference to that
answer? That was not your answer?
A Well, if it was my answer, it's pretty good non­
sense and I can't think what I might have said that would, 
you know, fit in with these words, but the gist is, I 
wouldn't think it would be prudent at this point in time to 
put a white teacher in a colored school and conversely, to

THE WITNESS:



196

just up and do this; it wouldn't make any sense.
THE COURT:

In other words, what youre saying is that you 
think that more progress generally —
MR. KING:

Well, if Your Honor pleases, did he say that he 
thought more progress would be made?
THE COURT:

I'm asking him; I'm asking him. In other words, 
what you're saying is 
MR. KING:

Well, he is a defendant, Your Honor.
THE COURT:

I want to get the information He's (138) Chairman 
of the Board and I want to know what he thinks.
BY THE COURT:
Q What you're suggesting is, when you say that it is
imprudent at this time - 
A At this point in time.
Q - that you think that more time needs to pass before
this is done?
A I'm not sure of it even then but I’m sure of it at
this point in time.
BY MR. KING:
Q Will you speak louder, sir, so that I may have the



197

benefit of your conversation with the Court?
A I say that at this point in time, I don't believe
any more can be done than the Board has undertaken to do.
Q Would you enumerate what the Board has undertaken
to do, sir?
A It has undertaken to track the Fifth Circuit's
order.
Q Sir?
A It has undertaken to fulfill the Fifth Circuit's
order; at least, as we understand it.
Q Calling your attention to paragraph 4 of this
Court's order to you, the Board of Education, when it says, 
"The requirements herein set out are minimal requirements 
and are subject to modification hereafter upon motion by 
the (139) Plaintiffs, in which event the burden shall rest 
upon the Defendants to show cause why further acceleration 
of the complete desegregation of the county schools should
not be required"; and it goes on further to say that "as to
the burden of proof resting on the school authorities to 
justify the delay" - Now, what is the justification for the 
delay, sir?
MR. WALTERS:

Your Honor pleases, I think that the evidence in this 
case shows, rather than a delay, that there has been a speed­
up of the desegregation plan and of the order as submitted



198

and rendered by the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals; that the 
plan as originally devised and the order as originally is­
sued and the mandate issued by the Fifth Circuit Court of 
Appeals dealt with the assignment of pupils on an inte­
grated basis, and calls for the complete school system to 
be included in the school year of 1967-68. The evidence 
shows that this Board of Education has done it in the year 
school year 1966-67. There is no request by this Board of 
any further delay. This Board is moving forward at a 
faster pace then even the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals 
suggested.
MR. KING:

If Your Honor pleases, is this an objection to some- 
■fhing or is this just an observation made by opposing counsel? 
THE COURT:

No, I think the way you frame your question suggested 
the comment by counsel, because your (140) question implies, 
as you have done several times in examining this witness, 
your question implies that you interpret the order of the 
Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals different from the way I in­
terpret it and from the way Mr. Walters apparently inter­
prets it. You interpret it as applying some affirmative 
action, some forcible transfer, some action of that nature, 
whereas I do not interpret the order that way; and your 
question to this witness implies that, just as previous



199

questions have implied that,* and I think that is what 
prompted Mr. Walters comment.
MR. KING.'; ■ ■

Wells I say that his comment is certainly out of 
place, unless it is in the process of an objection.
MR. WALTERS:

I object to the form of question, to imply that this 
Board is attempting to delay this procedure or evolution, 
if you want to call it.
THE COURT:

Of course, that's a matter which the Court will be 
called- upon to decide later.
MR. KING:

I bead him the decision, excerpts of the decision 
and 1 asked him question with reference to it.
THE COURT:

' Well, you see by the way you frame your question, 
you .seem to put some other interpretation (141) on it.
You can question him without implying that there is that 
affirmative integration, which you keep referring to? and 
it will save us and keep us out of difficulty.

All right, go ahead with what you started with.
MR, KIMGs

I .thought that it would be of greatest help to the 
Court for the witness to indicate how he apprehended or his



200

reaction to it.
MR. WALTERS:

Your Honor please, I might say that Mr. Haley and 
the Board of Education are paying me to interpret these 
decisions.
MR. KING;

Mr. Clerk, would you please read the question that 
I posed to Mr. Haley?
THE REPORTER;

‘'Calling your attention to paragraph 4 of this 
Court's order to you, the Board of Education, when it says, 
'the requirements herein set out are minimal requirements 
and are subject to modification hereafter upon motion by 
the Plaintiffs, in which event the burden shall rest upon 
the Defendants to show cause why further acceleration of 
the complete desegregation of the County schools should 
not be required', and it goes on further to say that "as 
to the burden of proof resting on the school authorities to 
justify the delay." Now, what is your justification for 
the delay, sir?
(142) THE COURT;

Now, you see that prompted Mr. Walters' observation, 
which I think is appropriate. Mr. Walters points out that, 
instead of delaying the desegregation of the system, that 
they have actually accelerated it beyond the minimum



201

requirements set.■ out by the Fifth Circuit. . Now., ■ .that ’ s 
the point. And you imply by your question that the -Board 
is under some affirmative duty that they have failed to 
discharge. Now, if you could; avoid that situation by 
framing in some other way, I think it would be better*. , 
MR. KING: aasadiw srif tsi'h uniyro rh«.rOO s.r

Your Honor, may I inquire?
THE COURT3

Yes sir. ... ed sent mi xvts i-oa , :V
MR. KING: ' . .• ,

Counsel, as I understand the situation here, this is 
a determination to be .made by this Court as to whether or not 
■there is a justification in delay. Obviously, there has been

a delay. odJ -lowan,p
THE COURT: j w b  r ,,

A delay in what?

MR. KING: ■ ode woflt •; oouo o:;. ■
In terms of a desegregation of the faculty and staff 

and of the employees of the Board of Education. 1 think 
this is rather obvious.
THE COURT:

We haven't got any evidence that there has been any 
delay at all; there hasn't been any application; there 
hasn't been any application by anybody for a transfer from, 
one school to the other, which; gets right back to the



202

original question that was raised. (143) You seem to feel 
that the Board is under some affirmative duty to go get 
somebody and put them in there; and I do not so interpret 
the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals' order.
MR. KING:

Well, is the Court saying that the witness will 
not be permitted to answer the question?
THE COURT:

No# no; I'm not saying that he won't be permitted 
to answer. I was just trying tp get everything in focus 
thatf if he answers, it will be in the light of correct 
understanding of the Fifth Circuit's order.
BY MR. KING;
Q Will you answer the question, sir?
A I'm not sure I know what your question is now.
Q What was that?
A I'm not sure I know what the question is npw.
Q You did hear -r
A Do you have reference to No. 4 here?
Q Yes, you heard paragraph 4 read, did you not?
A Right. Well, we feel that we have moved as fast and
faster than the schedule calls for.
Q Mr, Haley, do you feel that you and the Board pf
Education are under an affirmative duty to do more than 
what is minimally required by the order of the Court?



203

MR. WALTERS:
Your Honor please, I don't know in (144) what 

respect he is referring to. The order of the Court deals 
with several features. I really couldn't answer that 
question myself and I doubt if the Court could. And I ask 
that counsel direct questions to this witness dealing with 
this Court's decision in a clear and concise manner.
MR. KING:

Whether comsel could answer it or not is not germane, 
if this witness can. I say that the Court is lucid.
THE COURT:

That the Court is what?
BY MR. KING:
Q I say that the question is lucid. Do you understand
the question, sir? Would you care for me to repeat it?
A I couldn't repeat it.
Q I said, would you care for me to repeat it?
A Well, see if this will answer it for you?
Q Well, do you understand it, sir?
A I say, see if this will answer it.
Q Well, first of all, I would like to know whether you
understood it or not?
A All right, repeat the question.
Q Because I don't know whether it will answer it;
that's conjectural and you'll have to answer whether it



204

does or not?
(145) A 1 don't know either. You're getting me
mixed up. Let me see if I can listen to your question and 
iemember it.
Q I would like to know whether or not you take the
position in your official capacity representing the Board, 
feel that the Board is under no affirmative duty to do any- 
thing other than what is minimally required in the order, 
the Court's order?
A I don't know whether "duty" is the right word;
I'11 say -
Q Will you answer the question, sir? I mean, I'm not
interested in. whether you feel that certain words that I 
use are the right words or not, but did you understand the 
question, sir?
A I suppose our duty stems from our oath of office as
Board members and the instruction of the Court.
Q Well, I didn't ask you what your instructions were?
A We are endeavoring to do the best we can in the per­
formance of our duties. Now, when you're told by the Court 
to do something, I don’t understand this to be a cast- 
iron framework or a straight-jacket, that this and only 
this can be done. I presume there's some latitude and 
some freedom in the exercise of the Board's normal duties. 
This is the best I can give you* the best answer I can give
you.



205

Q Did you understand the question, sir?
A Well, frankly, I don't comprehend the question,
(146) Q I'll go over it again?
A It doesn't ring to me in a way that I can answer it
straight forwardly,
Q Well, I'm primarily interested in the honest of the
response, sir: I ask you, sir, whether or not it is the
view of the Board - 
A The what?
Q - the view of the Board, that it is under no affirma-
t ive responsibility or duty to do anything other than what 
is minimally required by the Court's order?
A I have never asked the Board this and so I couldn't
answer that,
MR, WALTERS:

Just a minutel This question doesn't mean anything. 
Now, if he wants to ask the witness if they are under an 
affirmative duty to go out and get a Negro teacher and make 
him go and teach in a white school or vice versa, or they 
are under an affirmative duty to have Board meetings or to do 
anything, Your Honor -- 
THE COURT:

Mr. King, the evidence shows that the Board has 
already done more than they are minimally required by the 
Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals' order.



206

MR. KING:
Your Honor pleases, that -- 

THE COURT:
Just a minutl For instance, they have desegregated 

more grades than they were required to desegregate at this 
point; so, when you as'k the question (147) you are pre­
suming that they haven’t done more than is required, when 
the evidence already shows that they have done more.
MR. KING:

I am asking what their view was. Your Honor, and I 
submit that it is an appropriate question, to which this 
intelligent witness can respond.
THE COURT:

Obviously, he doesn't think and the Board doesn't 
think -fhat they're not required to do more, because they 
have done more; they have done more. So, obviously, that is 
not their view because they have done more than the minimum 
requirements of the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals' order.

So, as Mr. Walters suggests - and it: seems to me to 
be appropriate - in order that we can get definite answers 
to definite questions, if you have some particular some­
thing in mind, something about transportation, something 
about teachers, something about clubs, something about 
anything as long as it's specific, ask him what he conceives 
their duty to be in regard to that or to this or to this.



207

But just a blanket question I don't think is of particular 
help to us because the evidence shows that they have done 
more than the minimum requirements. So, I'm trying to 
help you get some information, as well as trying to help 
the witness be able to answer (14S) your questions. And 
I would like to be enlightened myself.
BY MR. KING:
Q Does the Board take the position that they are under
an affirmative responsibility at all pursuant to the order 
of the Court, sir?
A In certain respects, yes.
MR. WALTERS:

That, Your Honor please, is the same question that 
has been put in another form,.
MR. KING:

That's right.
MR. WALTERS:

"Does the Board take the position that they are 
under any affirmative responsibility at all." The Board 
is charged with the responsibility, as I understand it,
Your Honor: No. 1, of providing quality, as Mr. Haley uses
the word, education for the children of this community, 
both black and white; they have that affirmative responsi­

bility.



208

THE COURT:
Well, they haven't got that responsibility under 

the order of the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals decision. 
They've got that responsibility fundamentally but the 
Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals didn't say anything about
that.
MR. WALTERS:

That's correct, yes sir.
MR. KING:

Does the Court care to rule on the objection which 
has been interposed by opposing counsel, Your Honor?
(149) THE COURT:

Well, insofar as it suggests a more specific ques­
tion, yes. If you've got something in mind that you want 
to question him about, whether the Board feels it is under 
obligation to do this or to do this or to do this, or to 
do this, then I, will require him to answer that. But just a 
blanket question, it doesn't help us any, doesn't con­
tribute anything to the solution, because the evidence 
shows that they have done more than the minimum.
MR. KING:

The question was whether or not he felt that they 
were under an affirmative obligation or what were they 
under an obligation, if anything, what they were under an 
affirmative obligation to do under the Court order. This



209

is the nub of the question that brings us before this 
Court, whether or not they have conformed to the mandate.
MR. WALTERS:

Now, if Your Honor pleases, to begin with, the de­
cision of the duty or the question of the duty, affirmative 
or negative duty of the Board of Education, as put forth 
by the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals in this case is a 
legal question, a question to be interpretation by the 
Court, as to whether or not this Board of Education has 
complied with its mandate. I would assume if counsel felt 
that they had not complied with the injunction which was 
issued by Your Honor, in response (150) to the mandate 
from the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, that we would be 
up here trying a contempt citation today. The order cer­
tainly specifies they are under an affirmative duty to 
integrate three classes a year. Yes, they are under that 
affirmative duty. They have done more than that. The order 
specifically states (1) they are under an affirmative duty 
to carry out the assignments they have already made, and 
this is where we differ: the question of affirmative duty
is a question and what this Court ordered this Board to do 
is a question for Your Honor's interpretation and not 
this witness'.
MR. KING:

May I speak to the objection?



210

THE COURT:
Obviously, the Board apparently has felt, of course, 

nobody knows but the Board -- 
MR. KING:

Well, wouldn't that be better •—
THE COURT:

Just a minute! -- apparently the Board has felt 
that it was under a duty to proceed with the plan of de­
segregation as fast as possible; otherwise, they would not 
have gone further than the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals 
has already required. Obviously, they have felt that they 
were under a duty to go as fast as they could, or they 
wouldn't have gone faster than the Fifth. Circuit Court of 
Appeals required. That's the reason (151) that I don't 
see that it's necessary to keep coming back to it. I will 
allow the witness to answer the question. In other words, 
you can ask him now if the Board felt - 
MR. KING:

J withdraw the question, Your Honor.
THE COURT:

No, I want him to answer the question that you just
a sked.
MR. KING:

No, I withdraw the question, Your Honor.
THE COURT:

Well, I would like to get an answer to it myself,



211

if you don't care for an answer, I would like to get an 
answer to it myselfj_
BY THE COURT:
Q He's asked you, Mr. Haley, whether the Board felt
that it was under any affirmative obligation to go faster, 
to go beyond the specific minimal requirements of the Fifth 
Circuit Court of Appeals?
MR. KING:

I would say to the Court in my place I did not ask 
the witness that, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
Q All right, that's the question I'm asking.
A Well, as I understand it, the Court asked that this
minimum be done and would be'pleased to see more than that 
being done. We had requests from parents that seemed reason 
able to do what -- the 8th and 9th grades; the Board con­
sidered (152) these requests and thought they should be 
granted without too great damage to anything: and so, that*
the way it was. It was reopened and we moved one year up on 
the schedule because we felt that it could be done.
Q So, the answer to the question is -
A - the answer is yes.
Q - yes, that you did feel that you were under a duty
to go as fast as you could, even though it was more than the 
order of the Fifth Circuit required?



212

A We have never supposed that we were to drag our
heels and just move at this particular pace.
Q All right.
BY MR. KING:
Q You adopt the observation made by the Court, that is
obviously you felt that you were going as fast as you pos­
sibly cou^d, is that correct? You adopt that as your testi­
mony?
A That is correct.
Q And what is your explanation as to why you could not
possibly desegregate the teaching staff or other employees 
of the Boqrd of Education?
A Because this is a more sensitive step and we feel
that we are doing as much as we can now, without, you know, 
messing up the quality of teaching, to be quite frank with 
you.
Q When you say "sensitive step", you mean sensitive to
(153) how white folks will feel about it?
A Well, it could be colored folks would too.
Q Well, I asked you the specific question, sir: I
didn't ask you about colored folks this time; I asked you 
about white folks?
MR. WALTERS:

Your Honor please, he said it could be other folks 
too and I think his answer is a proper answer. He can give



213

an explanation of his answer.
THE COURT:

I understand him to mean by that, that he thinks 
it would be sensitive to both.
MR. WALTERS:

To both.
MR. KING:

Well, that was not the question I asked him. Will 
you read the question I asked, Mr. Joiner?
THE REPORTER:

"When you say sensitive step, you mean sensitive to 
how white folks will feel about it?"
THE COURT:

And the answer is yes.
THE WITNESS:
A I say yes and colored people too..
BY MR. KING:
Q Then, your response was affirmative?
A (No answer) . . .
Q Now, what indication have you as a member of the
Board of the reaction of Negroes to the desegregation in 
terms of staff of schools that are predominantly attended 
by them?
A I haven't gone out and asked the question.
(154) Q Have you caused anybody else to go out?



214

A, Mo ,
Q You have not?
A Not that 1 know of.
Q Have you caused any inquiry to be made into the
white community?
A Not of a formal nature.
Q Not of a formal nature, but. isn't it true, because of
your association more intimately with the white community in 
an informal way, you are aware of what their sentiments and 
persuasions are?
A This would be true.
Q That's correct?
A Yes.
Q And this is the area of concern to which you as a
member of the Board are sensitive; isn't that correct, sir?.
A This is an area. The pupil is my larger concern.
Q Sir?
A The pupil-teacher relationship is of great importance
as well.
Q What evidence has this Board received of any damage
at all in terms of a diminution in the quality of education 
being occasioned by white people teaching black kids or 
black people teaching white kids?
A We've had no studies conducted on this subject and I
(155) don't pretend, to pass judgment on this, one way or the 
other. X was reading the other evening, for example, that



215

there are people who feel that a computer is better quali­
fied than a human being to teach a disadvantaged student, 
and much work is being done on this.
Q How is that relevant to the question put to you, sir?
A Well, it's relevant in this sense, that it may benei-
ther black nop white. It may be a thing to teach, I don't 
know.
Q I see. But it is your testimbny that the Board has

• ; . '-h • - • .f , * ■done nothing to determine whether this is in fact a'valid 
concern of not, right? '
A I wouldn't say that it has done nothing but I don't
know what It's done.
Q I see. He's with you.

DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALTERS":
Q Mr. Haley, as President of the Board of Education
of Dougherty County, has any parent, Negro or white, been 
to the Board of Education and complained that their children 
are not being taught by either a .Negro or white teacher?
A Not to my knowledge.
MR. KING:' ' ” ■ '"-U -

If Your Honor pleases - just a moment - 1 object to 
that; it has no relevance here at all as to whether a parent 
complained.
(156) MR. WALTERS:

I think we1ve got a -



216

MR. KIEfG:
Just a moment, sirI - that a black teacher has not 

gone in a white school or a white teacher having gone into 
a black school, isn't relevant to our consideratipn here.
MR. WALTERS:

I t^ink, if Your Honor pleases, if we get down to 
the basic bottom of this entire issue, it is mighty strange 
to me to know as to who has registered a complaint relative 
to the operation of the school system in Dougherty County,
I think it is very relevant. This Board of Education is 
charged y/ith the duty of promoting and affording educational 
opportunities. If parents come in and complain, Mmy child 
is not getting a proper education because they?re not being 
taught by the proper teacher", then this Coupt would of ne­
cessity have to concern itself with it greatly. If teachers 
came in and complained and said "I am not being given an op­
portunity to exert my greater energies toward teaching be­
cause you won't let me", then, of course, this Board would 
address itself to these questions.

And I simply mean to prove by this witness, the 
President of the Board of; Education pf Dougherty County, 
that none of these things have occurred in the Dougherty 
County school system, I haven't seen the first witness pome 
into this court and say "you denied me this, you (157) denied 
me that, yqu did this to mp, ypu did that to me," This whole



217

case is trying to proceed on the theory that such and such 
doesn't exist. And we say that these questions are rele- 
vant and they go to the very heart of the case.
THE COURT:

I agree with you; I overrule the objection.
BY MR. WALTERS:
Q Mr. Haley, has any Negro parent or white parent been
to the Board of Education complaining of the fact that their 
children were not being taught by a teacher of the opposite 
race?
A No.
Q Has any Negro teacher been to the Board of Education and
complained that they have applied for a job in a previously all 
white school and on account of their race have been refused?
A No.
MR. KING:

Now, if Your Honor please, by the witness' own testi­
mony, he said this was by long 'tradition. The law doesn't 
require people to do vain acts. This man has testified on 
the stand that the Board has demeaned itself consonant with 
tradition and custom and that sort of thing; you know, black 
people teach black people and white people teach white people. 
(158) THE COURT:

It relates, Mr. King, to the question of how mucy of



218

an obligation they were under to do more than the minimal 
requirements because, if there had been some considerable 
dissatisfaction or considerably number of complaintsf con­
siderable desire manifested to make some of these changes 
over and beyonfl what the Fifth Circuit required, that might 
be a proper matter to consider in whether they should have 
done so pr not.

X think it appropriate for him to bring out whether 
there have been or whether there have not.
MR. KINCJ:

Then, the Court has overruled the objection; is that 
correct, sir'?
THE COURT:

Yes,you correctly interpreted my ruling.
BY MR. WALTERS:
Q Mr. Haley, has any parent or student been to the Board
of Education complaining to the Board of Education of the 
type or manner of transportation they are being given to 
and from their homes and schools?
A Not to the Board that I know of.
Q Mr. Haley, I will ask you if, in your opinion, as
Chairman of the Board of Education or President of the Board 
of Education of Dougherty County, do you have any opinion as 
to whether or not the Board of Education of Dougherty County,



219

Georgia . is earnest endeavoring to comply with the constitu­
tional requirements of education, as set forth and as has 
(15.9.) been explained to you and as particularly enunciated 
to you in the case or .in the decision by the Fifty Circuit; 
are you endeavoring to comply with that in all good faith?
A Very definitely.
Q Do you concern yourself with quality education?
A We feel this is our first duty.

RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. KING:
Q Responsive to the question put by opposing counsel
relating to whether or not the Board has been the recipient 
of any complaints regarding segregated busses, prior to the 
desegregation plan, this school system was totally segre­
gated, is that correct, sirA?
A I presume it was; I don't know.
Q Well, were you not a member of the Board antecedent
to the mandate from the Court?
A Insofar as I know, it was.
Q Which meant that busses as well were segregated, is
that right?
A Right.
Q Now, what, if anything, has the Board, done to indi­
cate to the black community that these children, these black 
children, have a right to ride to school on busses with white



220

pupils? Have you done anything?
A They're riding on the bus.
(160) Q Are you suggesting, sir, that the kids, that
is the black kids, who are attending Albany High did not or 
were not 'required to ride in a segregated bus?
A I really have no personal knowledge of that situation
at all.
Q Would you, therefore, defer to the more intimate
knowledge of the Superintendent?
A I certainly would.
Q And you did hear his testimony, didn't you?
A As to some mixing on the busses, my authority is
Mr. Cordell. I have not ridden the busses myself.
Q Oh I see. But you felt competent to respond about
no student or parents making complaints about segregated 
busses, didn’t you?

* * * * * * *

. . . 0 O 0 . . .

NOTE: PORTION OF RECORD OMITTED -
FILED IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM

e> .  . OOO® .  .



H  B  I d l e r  Service, J L .  

327  BkartreS ~2>t. 
flew Orleans, l a .  70130