Evers v. Jackson Separate Municipal School District Transcript

    IN THE UNITED STATEvS D l i .AULT CuURT FOR THE SOUTHERN 
DISTRICT OF USIoSlr i I, JACKSON 

DIVISION

DARRELL K. EVERS, et al
vs. No. 3379
JACKSON SEPARATE MUNICIPAL SCHOOL DISTRICT, et al

DIAi. HUDSON, ET al
vs. No. 33£2
LSAtU COUNTY SCHOOL BOARD, et al

GILBERT R. MASON, JR., et al
vs. No. 2696
BILOKI MUNICIPAL SEPARATE oCHOwL DISTRICT, et al

APPEARANCES*
Hon. Derrick A. Bell, Jr., 10 Dolumbus Circle, New York, L. Y. 
for the plaintiffs;
Mon. Robert C. Cannada, Attorney, Jackson, Mississippi,
Hon. Thomas H. atkins, Attorney, Jackson, Mississippi,
Hon. Victor B. Pringle, Attorney, Jackson, Mississippi,
Hon. Dugas Shands, Assistant Attorney General, Jackson,
Mississippi,
Hon. Will C. Well, Assistant Attorney General, Jackson, 
Mississippi,
Mr. Dan H. Lhell, Attorney, Jackson, Mississippi,
&, pearing for the defendants.

BE IT IttliEMBEAED that on July 29, 1964, the above entitled 
and numbered causes came on for hearing before Hon. S. C. 
Mize, U. G. District Judge for the Southern District of 
Mississippi, at Hattiesburg, Mississippi, and the following 
proceedings were had and entered of record, to-wit:



2

(Wednesday, July 29, 1964, 10:00 a.m.)

THE COURT: Very well, Gentlemen, calling these school
cases of Evers versus Jackson Municipal Separate School 
District, Hudson versus Leake County School Board and 
Mason versus Biloxi Municipal School District* Are 
you ready to proceed?
MR. CANNADA: We are ready for Jackson, Your Honor.
MR. BELL: We are readyfbr the plaintiffs.
MR. WATKINS: We are ready for Biloxi, Your Honor.
MR. WELLS: We are ready for Leake County, Your Honor. 
THE COURT: Is there any testimony in the case?
MR. CANNADA: Ve have been discussing this among
counsel while waiting for the court to open and, sub­
ject to the Court’s approval, and we have agreed that 
insofar as the City of Jackson is concerned that we 
would put the superintendent on, the trustee of the 
district, put him on and take his testimony and let 
him be submitted for cross-examination by the plaintiff 
and that would be our case, if that meets with the 
Court’s approval.
THE COURT: Very well.
MR. WATKINS: If it please the Court, we have one
witness to put on for the Biloii school system.
MR. WELLS: We have one witness to be put on for Leake
County school system on the same basis.
MR. BELL: That would be satisfactory to us, Your Honor,



3

and, in addition, I would like to pass up a copy of a 
brief in support of our objection, and I have given 
copies to counsel opposite,
MR. WATKINS: I would like to submit a brief in sup­
port of our position as to our opposition to the objection, 
THE COURT: Very well. Let the witnesses come around
and be sworn,

(Whereupon the witnesses were sworn)

MR. KIRBY WALKER called as a witness, having first been 
duly sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. CANNADA:
Q. Will you give your full name to the reporter,
A, My name is Kirby Walker,
Q. Are you the superintendent of the schools of Jackson, Miss­

issippi?
A, Superintendent of the Jackson Public Schools.
Q. Are you the same Kirby P. Valker who testified in this case 

on its merits?
A. Yes, Sir,
Q. Since that time, Mr. talker, have you had any connection 

with the order of the court in which the trustees of 
Jackson Municipal Separate School District, in which 
you were defendants, were ordered to submit a deseg- 
ration plan of the schools of your district?

A, I have, as administrative officer of the Board of Trustees



4

of the Jackson Public Schools.
Q. And upon the decision of the board to submit a plan, did 

you make a recommendation to that board?
A. I have.
Q. . r. Walker, would you state to the Court and for the record 

what has been done by you and your staff since an order 
of the court recently issued in the preliminary injunc­
tion up to and including the submission of the plan 
and the reasons why you recommended this plan to the 
Board of Trustees ?

A. If I may, I would like to relate this in terms, really, of 
the chronology of it and make some comments with respect 
to the nature of our work in this connection.
We assumed as a staff for the board of trustees of 
Jackson Public Schools that for all practical purposes 
of school operation we reesumed that school desegregation 
is now beyond the debating stage in this district and 
that we had a task to do as the board had assigned us 
and the court had ordered us. We recognized as we 
attacked our job that every school district is distinct­
ively different; each has its own particular character­
istics, social, economic, educational, cultural. V«e 
recognized that there was no federal pattern or national 
pattern or any control of educational structure or plan 
on a national basis. We felt that the employees of the 
school board administratively our job was to get on 
with the work on a good basis, and that we proceeded to 
do. We felt that we had a control in our action, namely,



5

that there should be no serious and permanent injury 
to the school system, that is, to pupils and teaching 
personnel in the devising of plans to desegregate the 
school system. That lead us then to two. That led 
us then to two basic reasons fot  recommending the plan 
that was adopted eventually. One of them had to do 
with the educational aspects of it and the other had 
to do with the administration of it. If I may I would 
like to refer to the segregation plan that has been 
adopted. It declares that the maintenance of sepa­
rate schools for Negro and 'White children of Jackson 
Public School District shall be completely ended with 
respect to the first grade commencing with the school 
year 1964, and with respect to at least one additional 
school grade each school year thereafter. Second, that 
for the school year beginning in 1964 all pupils enter­
ing the first grade shall be admitted to the various 
elementary schools without regard to race--there are 
thirty-eight of these— giving primary consideration to 
the choice of the pupil or his legal guardian or his 
parent. Third, that among those pupils in a deseg­
regated grade applying for admission to a particular 
school— and that would be this year— and that would be 
the first grade— that where adequate facilities are not 
available for all applying pupils priority of admission 
shall be based on the proximity of the residence of the 
pupil to thi3 school, provided that other justifiable 
administrative reasons, other factors not relating to 
race, may be applied. In simple language that simply



6

says that the children who live nearest the school would 
have first call on the school facilities, provided that 
for justifiable administrative reasons not related to 
race, other factors may be considered.
Fourth, that ^vhere a pupil in a desegregated grade, or 
his parent or legal guardian, has indicated his choice 
of schools and has been notified of his admission to 
such school the transfer to another school be permitted 
only in a hardship case of a valid reason unrelated to 
race.
Finally, that the plan would be published in a newspaper 
having general circulation in the district not later 
than August 10th so that all parsons would know their 
rights to be accorded them under that plan.
After the court order in March, the Bosrd of Trustees 
instructed its staff to study and to investigate plans 
of desegregation of schools in other parts of the country. 
In April members of the staff visited some fourteen 
school systems that had been desegregated, he made 
reports to the Board of Trustees on these visits, what 
we found, what we observed, what seemed to be plausible, 
what seemed to be administratively sound.
In May we were somewhat interrupted in our work because 
of the hearing on the merits of the case and that con­
sumed some week or two of our time in preparation and 
hearing. Then in June the ruling of the court was 
received and, as I 3tated at the outset, we assumed 
that for all practcal purposes of school operations



that we were beyond the debating stage and we were in 
strictly a line of getting the job done with dispatch.
On ’July 14th the school board recommended— I mean 
adopted the plan which has been recommended, and on 
July 15th, which is the following day, we began staff 
conferences and conferences with principals of schools 
looking to the implementation of the plan adopted by 
the board by the opening of school on September 14th,
I would like to point out what we consider the educa­
tional finding of the plan that has been adopted.
First of all, we have tried to keep in mind that our 
task was to provide education for the youth in our 
school district, without regard to race, and there 
seemed to be some very positive reasons for desegre­
gating our schools beginning with grade one. Briefly, 
they are as follows:
(1) The first grade child, who typically is six years 
of age, is more likely to adjust to changes than is a 
pupil already conditioned by school attendance of a year 
or more in our system. It was our considered opinion 
that the cild would find contentment, security, would 
be at ease more readily as a beginning pupil that if
he were at an advanced age or grade. It was our sole
conviction that the first grade child is more amemable 
to teacher control than is an older child. He is more
docile; he is more willing to take directions. This
seemed to be important to us from the standpoint of 
getting right on with the teaching.



Third, that the time of teachers at all levels can 
be devoted to instruction rather than trying to 
blend different pupils into class situations if they 
were of advanced age, as against a beginning age, 
a first year child.
Finally, because this is a new area of educational 
experience for our district and for our people, it 
was our belief that the experience that we would gain 
as teachers, as parents, as pupils could be built upon 
on a one-year basis beginning with a first grade child 
and then advancing from that point on. Much more 
effectively than if we tried to start at some other 
point. Simply, it would appear to us that with a 
yearsTs experience with children in mixed classes that 
we would would have a performance for, not only the 
pupil, the class, a grade of children; that the teachers 
then as the child would move to the next grade would 
have clear records of adaptation, of performance, of 
achievement, achievement ability and their work would 
be better planned to deal with these children in 
light of the experience of the teachers in a school 
with mixed classes.
Now I list those and cite those as positive reasons 
for selecting and recommending that the desegregation 
of schools in this district begin with the first grade. 
There are some negative factors that seem to us ought 
to be considered in the matter of looking beyond deseg­
regation of more than the first grade at the outset.



9

I am 3ure the testimony when the case was heard on 
its merits made it crystal clear that in Jackson 
public schools there had been a record for more than 
a quarter of a century that there was a disparity in 
the ability to do the things that children do at school 
and in their achievement in doing these things as be­
tween the white and the Negro pupils and that thi3 dis­
parity was 30 marked and increased over the years as 
the child advanced that we would simply be dislocating, 
educationally, any child that we attempted to place at 
a grade beyond the first grade. The best evidence we 
have is that at the first grade level all children 
seem to be nearer together than in any subsequent year. 
Now, if there is any merit in the idea of mixing as 
opposed to separate schools, it would seem that we 
would be approaching this on the best basis and on a 
good-faith basis to do what we can to keep this dis­
parity from developing at a later time.
The second thing which is a negative factor as we looked 
at it was that our teachers are not prepared to revise 
their actual daily lesson plans and their designed 
programs to fit such heterogeneity in class composition 
above the first grade level. Now bear in mind, as I 
have said earlier, that the first grade children we 
believe are nearer together in the ability to do school 
work than at any other time that we have records for 
the twelve years in our school system. It would seem 
then that we would have less demand on teacher time to



10

to get ready to deal with desegregation of schools this Fall
by working with first grade pupils than with any other 
group of teachers we would have. This works both v/ays 
whether you have mixing in schools that were formerly 
all white or mixing in schools formerly all colored. 
The third negative consideration here was that the 
older child— the older a child is to a mixed situation 
the more alien he is to his class environment and 
school environment and learning environment. From 
the psychology of learing and what little we know in 
education about the childfs behavior, we are aware of 
the fact that the child who is alien to his class 
environment is more likely to be a exhibitionist, a 
show-off. The teacher is going to more likely find 
himself involved in the exercise of more restraint, 
more disciplinary action on such a child.
And finally, when you get these two conditions prevail 
ing you are going to find, or we think we would find, 
that we would nave more demand made on the time of 
parents, who would be coming to school for conferences 
to inquire why the child was being managed as he was 
or wh he was not performing as the group to which he 
was assigned was performing; that teachers would be 
taken from their responsibilities as teachers to really 
try to placate, appease, and try to explain to parents 
why this condition prevailed.
Finally, this may have seemed speculative to an extent 
but we feel that we have observed enough as adminis­
trators and educators to give some emphasis to this.



11

In our visits to school districts throughout the South 
in soma fourteen districts, we found that in conferences 
with teachers there were in mixed-class situations, 
particularly at the upper levels as they moved along 
in the upper grades, that teachers were asking for 
transfer out of class situations that were pretty 
badly mixed, not on the basis of ability, performance, 
or on the basis of the management of the children. And 
this seems to accompany where they have experienced 
considerable desegregation. Well, practically, to the 
school administrators it seemed to make real sense to 
us not to add to the burden or taxing of teachers in 
their work any more than necessary, nor than to disturb 
their morale any more than necessary. Teachers are 
rather in short supply in certain areas of the country. 
They are able to find employment rather easily, and we 
feel that we see no particular point in devising a plan 
just for the sake of planning that isnft based on the 
likelihood of your work being done as capa bly as your 
people can do it if you exercise good judgment in deter­
mining what your desegregation will be. I think ttts 
fairly covers the factors that we considered in reco­
mmending to the baord that the plan of desegregation 
for the schools in the system we represent beging with 
grade one,

Q. Mr. Walker, in connection with that point you made just now, 
of course you start it with one grade in September and



12

the plan anticipates at least one grade each year there­
after, but you have testified concerning the disparity 
of the achievement and mental I.Q* of the children of 
the Jackson Municipal School district and that there 
will be very little difference starting at the first 
grade. If in fact you moved up and took in the second 
grade, that is, the grade that was the first grade last 
year and will be the second grade this year, based on 
your past experience and insofar as their aptitude, 
mental I.Q. and achievement is concerned, is there in 
your judgment as an educator sufficient disparity be­
tween those particular groups of children that would 
be In the second grade next year as to make it certainly 
highly inadvisable that those particular children, froip 
their own standpoint, that they be sent to the same 
school?

My answer in brief would be yes, but I think this was doc­
umented again in the responses to interrogatories that 
came to us back some weeks ago. And as I recall, this 
is an illustration of the point that I tried to make a 
moment ago: that if we move beyond the first grade 

we immediately invite a spread in mental ability that 
will call on teacher time and administrative resources 
to do a teaching job that is going to be made pretty 
difficulty. At the first grade level— I tried to make 
this clear— at the first grade level the disparity in 
mental ability between the white and colored pupils is 
limited. They are rather close, at least so close that 
we have got a working group of children, a working class.



Whan I refer to a class I am referring in this instance
to grade one. In grade two, as of last Fall, the fall
of 19^3, the mean I. Q., scores of the second grade
pupils in our school system— and this covers about
£,000 students— the I.Q of the white child was right at
105 and the I*Q. of the colored child was right at 91•
Veil, thatfs a fifteen point spread. Athe fifth grade
that disparity has increased, the white children going

dropping
to 10$ and the colored chiidren/to $0.4. There we
have a twenty-two point spread. At the eighth grade
it’s 107 for the white pupils and 7$ for the colored
pupils; and the tenth grade 105 for the white pupils
and 77 for the Negro pupils. This says right on the
face of it that any attempt to bring these groups
together on a pre-choice oasis would simply complicate
daily instruction and you do tham the damage that I

at the
hava referred to/outset— serious damage to both levels 
of pupils and to the teachers because the roup is 
going to be very different on this sort of arrangement. 
MR. BELL: I think, if I may interrupt, that while it
probably can be presumed, maybe we should make the 
record clear tliat we would make the same objections 
to the U36 of tnis testimony to limit the amount of 
desegregation that can be taken at any particular time, 
for the purpose of justifying retention of desegregation. 
So we would object to its use.
Thai COURT: Very well. Let the objection be noted and
I will overrule the objection. I think the testimony 
comnetant to be considered bv a court in determining



I

14

the ultimate question here involved.
Q, Mr. V/alker, these records to which you have testified

of course are facts that you know to be true insofar 
as they pertain to the children in the district of the 
public schools?

A. Our school district, yes, Sir.
A. And I believe you testified that even as to the second 

grade there has developed a sufficient disparity to 
make it educationaly unwise or more difficult?

A. Well, more simply, if we had to in September of 1964 deal 
with any other than the first grade we would find 
teachers unprepared to deal with groups that are as 
far apart a3 these groups would be, based on the 
records we have now.

Q. And under the proposed plan of this school board, you would 
take first graders to start out more nearly the same 
and try to carry them along at the same level all the 
way through in an effort to make the educational 
system work?

A. Right. We would have the experience at the end of a year 
and if the disparity had not developed we would know 
the technique and device we were using were working 
effectively and we could move to the second year with 
a great deal more confidence than we could now.

Q. Whereas as it now stands, regardless of what is done this 
disparity in the upper grades is there and and will 
have to be met if you Jump beyond the first grade.

A. Thatfs right.



15

MR. BELL: Let me interrupt and say that my professional
status requires that I object to the leading question.
THE COURT: Yes, that is leading. Sustain the objection.

Q. Mr. Valker, we now go to the next phase of your testimony 
as it pertains to the administrative problems. You 
have given basically your educational reasons for the 
first grade and the first grade only this Fall. Are 
there any administrative reasons why in your judgment 
no more than the first grade can be desegregated in 
this district in the year beginning September of this 

year?
A. Yes, Sir, and I would like to comment on those, if I may.

If I could review to the Court, I would like to state 
that this is a school district which we serve that has 
this last year approximately 3$»000 pupils enrolled.
It has been growing rapidly at the rate of about
1.500 pupils a year. There are approximately 2,200 
or 2,300 employees, of which number about 1,400 or
1.500 are teachers and principals, supervisors. V«e 
have with the increase in enrollment, with the turn­
over in staff by virtue of retirement or resignation, 
illness, death, of other causes, we have about a 
fourteen or fifteen percent turn -over in teaching 
staff. The board has had to fill,on an average, a 
class room each week for the last fifteen years.
This ha3 been going on and the experience is still 
with us and we now have had this problem of dealing 
with the matter of desegregating schools. As an ad-



16

rainistrative staff we have not been enlarged to any
appreciative degree in administering these schools.
V,'e have had to make forecasts of enrollments, we have
had to project building needs, we have to give original
impetus to needs for bond elections, provide the basic
data on which people could act, casting a ballot on
whether or not they wanted to build schools. We have
had to plan school buildings, we have had to be in the
position of studying the areas in the district, which
is about seventy square miles in total, and giving

the board our best judgment as to the areas in which
buildings would be needed or in which sites had to be
acquired, involving at times condemnation suits. This
may not have an immediate bearing on the problem, but
it keeps the staff involved. We are busy, is what am
trying to, say. This p. st year, for example, this was
a legislative year. The legislature found fiscal 

financing the business of the State, 
problems of rather acute nature,/and one of the last
p5.eces of legislation in the appropriations was the 
appropriation of funds for the operating of schools for 
the years 1964-66, and the greater part of that appro­
priation, of course, is that of having to do with the 
fixing of salaries of teachers in the public schools of 
the state. V,e were held in suspense, literally, elect­
ing teachers, issuing contracts,, until the very last 
week of the school year. We are to this date still 
recruiting and staffing for 1964-65. Our school 
budget had to be prepared and approved and filed by



July 15th, which, incidentally seemed to be another 
date which we had to meet for certain. We at the 
same time, beginning in March, were aware that we 
were under a temporary injunction and had to, as the 
board had directed, study the whole business of de­
segregating. We had to visit these other school 
districts, which involved weeks of time, and, finally, 
as I mentioned earlier, in May we had our day in court 
and judgment was finally received. The board acted, 
in ray opinion, as rapidly as it possibly could, and 
on July 14 the staff had its orders and we then began 
to operate under forced threat. We have cancelled 
vacations for our general administrative offices.
Next Monday, August 3rd, we expect to present to the Board 
of Trustees a complete outline of the procedures to be 
used in compliance with the plan of desegregation which 
has been submitted to your court for approval. In all 
candidness as a practicing administrator, we have done 
what we could do to the very best of our ability, with 
no semblance of dragging feet or being recalcitrant or 
being contrary the least bit. We have earnestly tried 
to keep the education of all these young people at the 
heart of what we are doing. It was our feeling that 

once the board said "desegregate”, that the mechanics 
of this had to be perfected as rapidly as we could 
and we have done that sincerely and without any 
thought of subterfuge or being careless. We have, 
as I said, a limited staff of persons to assist us in



to assist us in this work. I won*t say that the deseg­
regation problems have brought us to these particulars 
that I am going to mention, but I would say this: 
that in the total task, the total assignment we have,
I can understand how it would be extremely difficult 
for us administratively to do more than we have done 
and do it with credit to children and to the community 
that we serve. We have a director of curricula. He 
has the responsibility for recruting and having con­
ferences arranged with principals to that the schools 
will be staffed when September comes. I just talked 
with him yesterday. He is still wofully behind with 
his work. He has had to be a party to many conferen­
ces that have to do with the work of the district I 
have mentioned here, plus the work that is on us for 
desegregation. The time might have well been used in 
getting teachers interviewed, recommended and assigned.
A project that has been underway this year has been 
preparing a suitable guide for our substitute teachers.
On an average teachers will be absent four or five days 
apiece out of a school year. For fourteen hundred 
teachers that means somewhere between five and six 
thousand days of substitute teaching that has to be done. 
It is our feeling that the work of substitute teachers 
should be more than baby sitting or child care; that 
instruction should go on. It has been his assignment, 
working with a group of teachers and principals, to 
try to prepare by this September a guide for the use



19

by substitute teachers to make their work more effect­
ive. This has been in suspense for months. Our 
director of testing in special education, we felt with 
the problems on us we could no longer delay trying to 
make some extra provisions for children who are re­
tarded, educationally and mentally retarded. At 
considerable sacrifice on the part of the others 
we arranged for him to go and spend some time in an 
eastern university trying find some ways to find more 
people who can work with children who are educationally 
and mentallly retarded. He has been out of the office 
for some days, weeks. The Assistant Superintendent, 
who has the responsible of educational programs in 
working directly with principals in our system, is 
Chairman of the School Plant Planning Committee for 
our district. At the present time on the drawing 
board there are four high schools. This involves 
much planning to give architects that we expect to 
operate these buildings. The time of this man, who 
is charman of this group, is extremely important this 
season of the year because we hope to have these build­
ings under contract this Fall and ready for occupancy 
in the Fall of 1965.

The director of our curriculm and one of his 
assistants hav e been hospitalized in the last few 
weeks, or ill, and they have been removed from their 
duties, one about three weeks and another one about 
two weeks, and they are behing with their work.



20

The director of our schools, who works in a particular 
assignment with our colored teachers, principals and 
staff, has been placed under doctor’s care. He's a 
young man— forty-two or three years old. When he 
went for his annual physical, which is required of 
all employees, all teachers, principals and adminis­
trators of the school system, his physician called me 
and said that his blood pressure is such that "I am 
quite concerned and I would advise that he be given 
a period of rest.” This has been done and he was out 
of his office for about three weeks.

These are practical problems of administration, all 
of which had bearing on our Judgment that we had done 
in good faith as much as reasonably expected to do in 
the desegregation of schools in this district beginning 
in September of 1964.

I might just recap, if I may, by saying that as 
we see it in arriving that the judgment that we have, 
that it appeared to us that the Supreme Court in its 
decision back in 1954 recognizes that pupils have free­
dom to choose the schools they wish to attend. This 
is exactly the plan that we have proposed to our Board 
of Trustees— a plan that would permit desegregation of 
schools in our district without either educational or 
social chaos. Up until the close of this past year, 
with what we believed to be strong and convincing 
evidence in the school system that we serve, there 
have been separate schools operating in our judgment



21

that were better, and there has been no real compelling 
reason, as we saw it, certainly no educational basis 
for us as administrators to try to alter the plan for 
the education of the children of the district that we 
serve. Now, with this ordor to desegregate and the 
plan that has been adopted by the board to become 

effective in September, it seems to me in my view 
that this plan should be instituted on as beneficial 
a basis a3 possible, educationally speaking, and that 
we should try to avoid so far as possible confusion 
and chaotic conditions in the operation of the schools. 
That is the plan that we have submitted to the board 
and that they have approved.

Q. Mow, Mr, Walker, your testimony that you have given, as I 
see it, pertains to the question that if there is to 
be a change in the plan for the first grade for the 
course *64-65 your administrative problem would be as 
described?

A. Would be compounded and complicated.
Q. V’ould any other educational and administrative duties 

suffer as a result of that?
A. Well, it would be a mfetter, of course, of making judgment

f
as to what would he neglected. The answer is yes, 
as to things would have to be neglected. What they 
would be, at the moment I am not prepared to say. 
Certainly something would have give. ’What we tried 
to do blend into a plan of operation that which is 
good educationally £nd will not be demoralizing to



22

people who have got to administer a school system 
as they would expect to do it with credit to themselves 
and their community.

Q. Mr. laiker, getting back to the plan, some objections have 
been filed concerning the operation of the plan and 
it is important that you explain exactly how this plan 
would operate. As superintendent of the schools, will 
you be the chief administrative officer that will sup­
ervise the operation of this plan?

A. I will.
Q. Under the present set-up, unless there is some change by 

the board, unless there is some change, insofar as 
grades two through twelve are concerned would you 
still continue to supervise those as you have in the 
past?

A. Yes, Sir. As of this time— and we had to presume that 
we were on good ground and defensible ground and I 
have tried to justify the action we have taken and 
to the recommendations that have been made. *e have 
prepared and will release shortly complete written 
instructions to the parents, pupils, principals, 
teachers as to the assignment of pupils in grade 
two to twelve for the session of 196J+-65. I might 
say further that the mechanics of dealing with the 
entire school area, grades one through twelve, have 
been prepared; and, as I mentioned earlier, next month 
we would hope to submit those to the board of trustees 
so that they would know the direction we propose to



2?

take and would so approve.
Q. But, basically as to those grades there is administration, 

of course, and that you have done and you are prepared 
to move ahead?

A. That is correct.
Q. Under this plan where you are desegregating as to the first 

grade, how will that work under this plan?
A. Well, on August 10th there will be published in a news­

paper in the district a legal notice as to the plan 
that is approved, and it would be, as I would imagine 
at the time, really the essence of this document that 
was filed and adopted by the board on July 14th. As 
I 'would interpret it, the first statement here is that 
the people of our school district would know that 
the maintenance of separate schools for Negro and white 
children would bo completely ended with respect to the 
first grade beginning this fall and with respect to 
one additional grade each school year thereafter.
That would be known, and where hetfetofore we have had 
twenty-six schools attended by whites, twelve attended 
by Negroes, that beginning this year there will be 
thirty-eight elementary schools and every child —  

and our best estimate is that there will be between 
three and four thousand of these pupils— they would 
have choice to admission of any one of these thirty - 
eight schools without regard to race. That is covered 
in the first two items of this plan. So, any child, 
white or colored, would have opportunity to enter any



24

one of these thirty-eight schools as he or his parents
choose. Now, obviously, if all three or four thousand
of them appear at one building, they could not be acco­
modated.

3o, the third provision is that among those pupils 
in a desegregated grade,, which is in this year the 
first grade, applying for admission to a particular 
school where facilities are not adequate— now we may 
comment on what we mean by adequate facilities? wellt 
buildln 3 are usually built to accommodate on an average 
of about thirty children to a teaching station. If 
there were twelve teaching stations we would say that 
that would accommodate 360 pupils. We know that is a 
planning figure, but we would finally look at what Is 
a reasonable v/orkload; v;e would want the school’s 
quality of work recognized and accredited and so we 
would have a limit as to the word ’’adequacy”. We 
certainly would not be in an attitude of placing more 
children in a class room— or putting so many children 
in a class room— that the accreditation of the school 
would be jeopardized.

Again, there might be a room in the building that 
could be used as instructional purposes but not as 
teaching, and where you w'ould have, say, three or 
four or five more thildren than could be accommodated 
in a class it would not make good administrative sense 
to employ teachers to teach these four or five pupils 
but, rather, to limit the cla33es to the staff and the 
facilities that are available and to give the children



25

who are nearest that building an opportunity to attend
another school. The priority of admission here is based 
on the nearness of the child1s residence to the school
that he wishes to attend.

Now, there’s another provision here— -
Q. Up to that point, Mr. Walker, if I avay interrput just a

second, this attendance and in determine the adequa­
cies of the facility, will the race question enter 
the picture.

A. Using the language that I have seen some where, we will be 
color blind with respect to the first grade.

Q,/ All right, proceed.
A. Now, the next provision under Item 3 here is:

"provided that for justifiable administrative reasons 
other factors, not related to race, may be applied in 
making decisions as to who i3 admitted.”

Mow, that language is a little general there, a 
little loose, and was written that way on purpose.
I think, if I might have access to a district map where 
these thirty-eight schools are I can make myself under­

stood.
Q. Mr. -alker, I hand you a map here that shows— a map of 

Greater Jackson, and ask you if you recognize that.
A. Yes. This was prepared at our direction.
Q. What is it?
A. Ip»s a map showing generally the bounds of the school

district, which includes all of the City of Jacrson 
and some twenty-five or more square miles additionally. 
On it, by symbol, there has been placed the approximate



26

location of the thirty-eight elementary schools to 
which reference has been made as desegregated schools 
beginning September 1964, and in which somewhere about 
three or four thousand first grade pupils would be 
expected to be admitted.
MR. CANNADA: We would like to offer this as an
exhibit to the testimony.
THE COURT: Very well, let it be received in evi­
dence and marked as an exhibit.
(Same received and marked Defendant Exhibit No. 1)

Q. Mr. Walker, in talking about your problem of using other
factors other than just proximity as a justifiable and 
administrative reason for determining assignment of a 
student to a school, can you give to the Court and 
illustration of the type of thing you are talking 
about•

A. I think I can do it very easily. Here, for example, are
two elementary schools roughly within a mile and a half 
of each other—

Q. Excuse me just a moment.
A. Here are two elementary schools roughly within about a 

mile and a half of each other. Let's ass ume for 
illultration that when the first grade pupils present 
themselves that we have more children presenting 
themselves for admission than we have facilities to 
accommodate them. Let's take a child who is right 
here, (indicating on exhibit), who is a mile and a



27

half from this building. Now, he says, "I can’t go 
here because you have already filled up the building 
with children who are nearer this building than I.n 
Well, that’s what this plan says— that the person in 
the proximity is going to be the first factor con­
sidered. But it makes reason, and is the considerate 
thing to do for this child to say to him, ”all right, 
you may attend.” We’ll take another child who is nearer 
another school and ..further from this school and say 
to him, ”you may choose— ” not necessarily go to this 
school, but ”you may choose another school than this 
one,” because it doesn’t make rhyme or reason that 
this child should be required to go already a mile 
or better to another mile or better to get to this school 
when this one is more convenient to him and he wants to 
attend it. So, the point here is primarily for conven­
ience where we have a situation, not related to race, 
that makes just good commom sense and good management 
in accommodating a child at a school nearest. Now, 
that’s one type.
Here’s another. Here is a child who lives, we’ll say, 
at this point here, (indicating on exhibit). The 
nearest school to him is here. The school is filled 
up. Very well, then you say to him, ”you go here”, 
which is two miles from him, or ”go here”, which is 
two and a half miles from him. That doesn’t make 
sense when a child may be here, who has chosen to go 
here, and is within a nearest distance to here than he 
is to here. So this child would be, for administrative



23

reasons, given preference, again without regard to race.
Now, let’s illustrate again. Buildings differ in 

design and in their arrangement. We can’t begin to 
anticipate all of the reasons that the people will 
have to ask for some special consideration with respect 
to the admission of a child when he is not the nearest 
child to it. This happened last week. A mother called 
and she said, "my child has had polio and has to use 
a wheel chair. We live within two blocks of a school. 
This child will be in the first f~rade. He is nearer 
this building than any other. Can he elect to go to 
another school that is farther removed fz*om our resi­
dence than the one he is proposing to attend", or we 
would ordinarily think he would attend?

The answer was, "yes; he can attend any one of the 
thirty-eight schools provided there adequate space for 
him." The only point that she had in mind is that 
the building be such that the child can come from the 
street level into the building without having to use 
stairs and can get to the lunch rooms and toilets 
without having to use stairs and have an attendant to 
get him about. Again, for administrative reasons 
it would make sense to us to say to that parent, "where 
we have a school that meets your condition, we will 
look with favor on admission of this child because of 
the hardship condition existing," without regard to 
race and without regard to the proximity of his resi­
dence to that particular school.

These illustrations are, I think, sufficient to



29

mafce the point that a school board should have adminis­
tratively, at least give its 3taff,the right to exer­
cise good sense judgment in school operation; and that 
is all this is. This has really nothing to do with 
the desegregation plan.

Q. Under that language in that plan the proximity would be 
primarily controlling, bufc provided for justifiable 
reasons other factors not related to race may be app­
lied? I donft want to lead you, but I do want to geti
this point over, that there are many varied factors 
that might come up and you have not attempted to iden­
tify them in the plan except to except to state and 
assure the Court that they will not be related to race; 
is that correct?

A, That's correct, and that we just simply cannot anticipate 
for the community of 3&,000 children all of the con­
ditions and circumstances that may justify a judgment 
that we feel would be reasonable to excersise, at any 
time, under any sort of school operation.

Q. Mr. l.alker, is there anything further you would like to say 
in connection with this matter?

A. I believe that is sufficient.
MR. CAKNADA: That is all.

CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL:
Q. Let's just start from where we are. You indicated that 

there are many varied factors and showed us the 
proximity problems that might arise and problems



of the infirraed child. Are you telling the Court that 
while a child in the first grade was seeking a deseg­
regated education may not for one of these reasons be 
able to obtain admission to the school of his choice, 
that is, the closest desegregated school, that under 
those circumstances would a child who wants a deseg­
regated education in the first grade be frustrated 
in his efforts to obtain it?

A. That’s a rather complicated question. I don't want to 
try to answer it and not understand it. Could I 
rephrase it and see if I have your question?

Q. Go ahead.
A. Are you saying to me, "do I smell a rat in thi3 plan?”—  

is that what you are saying?
Q. Not really. I want to know, will every first grade child 

who wants to go to a school formerly—
A. Segregated?
Q, --for children of the opposite race, will he be able to 

have that choice?
A. My answer is yes, except under the provisions as stated—  

for justifiable reasons. And it’s got to make sense; 
it’s not to be related to race.

Q. V<ell, you said yes, and then you indicated maybe no. Now, 
ray point is that perhaps a Negro child may not be able 
to go to the closest white school for one of these 
administrative reasons, but is there any possibility 
a Negro first grader would not be able to go to a 
formerly white school?

A. No, none thst I know of. If he lives nearest the building,



31

certainly he can go there.
Q. Suppose he lives next door to whit was once a Negro 

school?
A. That won’t matter if we can accommodate him in another 

school.
Q. If the closest white school is a mile away and it is 

filled by students living closer than he—
A. They would have priority, but ha could pick another.
Q. I see.
A. He has choice until he is satisfied, as long as we’ve 

got space.
Q. Is it correct that 3ome of the students in the Jackson 

school system are transported to school by bus?
A. Yes, about, I would say, sppriximately thirteen or four­

teen hundred.
Q. Y/hat is the standard?
A, He has to be a resident of the district outside of the

municipality and more than one mile distant from his 
home to the school to which he is in attendance.

Q. What you are saying is that no child within your school 
district is eligible for bus transportation?

A. That is true, with the exception of a child who was men­
tally handicapped. He is transported at school board 
expense, if he lives a considerable distance from 
school. There are probably a hundred or so of those. 
I don't think that is really germane to the subject.

Q. What is the basis for the bringing in of students into
your system who are not living within the school dis­
trict?



32

A. That»s a legal transfer.
MR. GANNADA: If the Court please, I think there is
confusion h^re. He has reference to the city Units, but 
the attorney is using the word "district* and we should 
be talking about the city limits.
MR. BSLLj Oh, I see.

A. The City limits. Under the 3tate laws pupils are entitled 
to transportation if they are living in the school 

district beyond the city limits and are one mile or 
more from the building which they are attending.

Q. Now, as a part of this bus transportation as provided, ha3 

it been found necessary for administrative or other 
reasons to take children past one school, which in 
the past they were eligible to attend, on to another 
school.

A. I don’t know about this ’’eligible to attend”
Q. Well, people who are eligible for bus transportation, are 

they inevitably taken to the closer school?
A. No, they are taken to where we have facilities— usually.

For example, we may have a building that would have 
five class rooms that would not be filled and we 
could take fifty chidren to that building from this 
added area outside of the municipality. V.e could drop 
fifty of them there; we might drop fifty of them at 
another building and fifty at another— where we could 
accommodate them. These children in these added areas 
are so sparsely, so spread out over an area, it would 
hardly justify building of schools in these sparsely 
settled areas and we use transportation to overcome



33

that problem and take them to a school where then can 
be accommodated.

Q. If I interpret the answer correctly, if there would be Negro 
students who would choose a desegregated school that 
would be more than this mile or mile and a half dis­
tance, and that they met the other criteria, they 
would be able to obtain bus transportation in the same 
way the students did before?

A. What do you mean? You lost me there.
Q. Is it possible that Negro students will be able to obtain 

bus transportation if they meet the requirements of 
bus transportation and this is necessary to get them 
to an open school?

A. i'hat^ right • Now, I want to be sure we are together.
You are not saying, "are the pupils within the city 
limits to be provided transportation under this planj 
are they are not to be provided transportation under 
this plan.” The answer is they will not be provided 
transportation under this plan. Ko pupil within the 
city limits. This plan is no different so far as 
transportation is concerned as heretofore, except for 
the first grade child would have choice of school—  

thirty-eight of them.
Q. And the bus transportation, you indicated, is only avail­

able for those in the district outside of the city 
limits?

A. Thatfs right, more than a mile from the school which they 
attend.



34

Q. Then there v/ould be no bearing in the provision of trans­
portation of c- Negro child who would be in the city?

A. No, he is not barred from that at all* Neither is a white 
child.

Q. You indicated that you were preparing details of the plans
and procedures you were going to place before the board. 
Is there anything in those plans which is relevant 
or would possibly effect what your testimony has been 
here this morning?

A. X think it would be related and if you would like I can 
tell you again generally about it.

Q. All right.
A. Now, the calendar I will give is not precise, but I think 

for the purposes it will serve. The first step would 
be on August 10th to publish the plan and accompany 
with that publication sufficient instructions to all 
people in the district, all children— first through 
twelve— what they can expect in the way of school 
operation in September of 19&4.

W. Just a second. You indicated on direct that this would be 
in the form of a legal notice.

A. well, I think the plan calls for that, as I recall.
Q. I was wondering whether it is true that in past years v/hen 

you published the schools where people living in dif­
ferent areas to go that was a general notice in the 
main part of the newspaper.

A. I canft speak on that. I think we need the advice of the 
attorneys and the board as to whether or not it would



35

be legal notice. Administratively it would not matter 
to us whether it's legal or otherwise. Ve would like 
to see it clearly described and folks would know what 
their rights are.

Q. I think I interrupted when you were going to indicate what 
the substance of the notice would provide, perhaps in 
addition to the printing of the plan.

A. Kill, just to make it clear that children and their parents 
would have a right to go to any one of the thirty-eight 
schools and make the application. And this would be 
done in advance of school opening as heretofore. And 
would deal with first grade pupils in a distinct way, 
because their rights are different, and deal with the 
second to twelfth grade pupils as we have done here­
tofore.

Q. Are there additional factors included in the proposal that 
would be placed before the board that you havenft 
discussed this morning?

A. Additional factors in what?
Q. In the plan that you will give to the Board of Trustees 

on Monday August 3rd?
A. Yes. We would, yes. We are going to have to ask some 

people to cone back and handle first grade pupils 
independently of dealing with the other, because we 
have set these up on a schedule basis and we will be 
dealing with, roughly, three or four thousand pupils 
in advance of the others. That will involve some



36

staff of assistants we don*t have ordinarily.
Q. How is the parent of the first grade child going to

have an opportunity with the procedure by which he 
excercises the choice ?

A. Just take his child to school and register him.
Q. When will he do that?

I don’t know the tine yet. This would be prior to the 
usual registration of pupils.

When is the normal period of registration?
The first week of September. The class work begins the 

second week of September, and I would presume, just 
as a loose day, probably a week prior to the normal 
registering of all pupils.

School will open on what date in September?
Classes will begin September 14th. Teachers report to 

duty September 7th. The weak of September 7th will 
be used for orientation purposes and registration of 
pupils grades two to twelve. Now, for illustration, 
we will just move it up a wefek. That would be what—  

August 24th, 25th, 26th. What is — . Roughly, a 
week earlier. We will just assume for illustration—  

MR. CANKADA; August 3lsb.
We’ll assume for illustration that August 31st we will ask 

first grade teachers and principals to report and handle 
the first grade pupll3. That’s about the procedure.

Then it is correct that during that week, all pafents of 
first grade pupils will be expected during one of those 
days to take their child to the school of their choiie?

Right. I was hoping it wouldn’t take a whole week to take



37

care of the three or four thousand and probably 
accomplished in a day*s time.

Q. Is it possible in the pre-registration for first graders 
that there would only be one day they would have 
opportunity to do this?

A. Well, we*ve got to take children the year around. We
couldn*t cut off admission of youngsters. For initial 
convenience, because we are breaking new mound, we 
would try to impress on people the importance of com­
plying with the request to register as of a time. Now, 
what the specific time will be, how many hours and how 
many days, is something yet to be completely determined.

Q. I guess my question really is, if for some reason a parent 
did not come in and exercise this freedom of choice 
during the designated period would he lose the right 
of freedom of choice as provided under this plan?

A. I think we will have to exercise some judgment as to what 
is a reasonable time to do this sort of thing, which 
means we will very likely have to establish some little 
limits of leeway and what we consider adequacy of 
facilities to take care of bonafide, late, justifiable 
registrations. Do you follow me?

Q. -̂ es. And it kind of leads to the next question, which is, 
in the past as indicated by the experience of other 
school systems, and if I read the interrogatories 
correctly, there are a number of parents who don*t bring 
their children to school sometimes until school has 
begun. What policy would you follow in the assignment 
of those late registrants?



A. They would have choice.
Q. They would still have choice?
A. Oh, yes. They would have choice,
Q. Would there be any penalty involved as far as, perhaps, 

the limitation?
A. I think, again, we would have to look at that on the basis 

of how genuine is the treason for being tardy in mak­
ing the application. That would make sense to me.

Q, You have indicated the serious problems educationally and 
administratively in bringing about the desegregation 
of the first grade. Have you as a part of your studies 
made any effort to determine the number of parents in 
the first grade who seek desegregated assignments for 
the children?

A. In our district?
Q. Yes.
A. No, Sir.
Q. I take it that all the testimony you gave indicated that 

you had a pretty good idea that would be a fairly • 
substantial number?

A. Could be. I don’t know. I think we have got the plan 
for what could be complete across-the-board mixing.

Q. Is there anything apparent in studies in other areas to 
indicate—

A. No, nothing to that extent. It varied by communities, 
by school areas,

Q. As a matter of fact, isn’t it fairly true that in most of 
these areas where a freedom of choice plan was in 
dperation, across-the-board in all twelve grades, the

3$



39

number seeking assignment the first year was real small?
A. Initially small, that is true.
Q. That brings into my concern, as I understand it, the board 

is unwilling to extend an opportunity to obtain deseg­
regated education to students for the first grade for 
the 1964-65 school year?

A. That was our advice.
Q. Now, in indicating that you were desirous of limiting it tt> 

only the first grade, you listed all of these various 
problems that would occur above the firs grade if 
you had desegregation there. Now, if the freedom of 
choice option was granted in all twelve grades and 
you received the same type of response to that in the 
initial year as has been received in other areas, is 
it your position nevertheless that you would have all 
of these administrative problems and all of these edu­
cational problems?

A. well, I could speak with a good deal of certainly about
the problem of accommodation in grades seven to twelve. 
We just could not simply accommodate, what was formerly 
white students.

Q. I think that now we have only six or seven plaintiffs,
and let us say that there would be only the plaintiffs, 
all of whom are above the first grade, and perhaps 
six or 3even above the first grade who would be desir­
ous in the initial year of bbtaining a desegregated 
education, do you tell us that us that the school 
board and the school system would not be able to



40

accommodate thos people?
A. No, The school board could accommodate six or seven

people, but that was not my understanding, I under­
stood this was to anyone— what do you call it, a class 
suit?

Q, That’s correct,
A. Well, that’s my answer— if it’s on a class basis we could 

not accommodate any general moving of children from 
schools formerly attended by Negroes to schools 
formerly attended by whites.
MR, CANNADA: We would like to object to this line
of questioning for that reason, that, as a matter of 
fact, that this is a class suit and if any plaintiffs 
have any rights then all of the class would have that 
right and as to whether there would be one or one-thou­
sand is purely speculation. Any complainant would have 
to anticipate that any one in the class would have the 
right of any other member of the class and we would 
object to this,
THE COU lT: Overrule the objection, I think it is
competent to be considered by the Court.
MR. BELL: What I am trying to get al, Your Honor, is
that there has been research and investigation of what 
is happening in other areas and that we know that what 
has happened in other areas, even when you give freedom 
across the board, you don’t have a tremendous and big 
response from the Negro community as far as rushing 
into the formerly white schools concerned. And I



41

was trying to get at what had been done as far as 
research in that area.
MR. WATKINS: Your Honor, I want to object. Counsel
keeps referring to districts where they have had de­
segregation acroBS the board. I don,t understand that 
Dr. Walker has testified that he’s visited any such 
district. If counsel knows of any such district, I 
don't think that’s competent evidence, but he keeps 
questioning about school districts that have deseg­
regated across the board. There is not one word of 
testimony in this record, to my knowledge, of any 
school district that anybody has been familiar that 
has desegregated across the board. As I understand 
it, these districts visited were such as our’s— that 
started desegregation on a very limited basis, and 
most all of them one grade at a time.
THE COURT: Veil, I think it is competent for him to
question him on it. Of course, if he can’t answer the 
question, then he can state he canlt. But, I think it 
is competent in determining the fairness of the plan 
submitted here. So, I will overrule the objection and 
let him cross-examine.

Q, Mr. Walker, on one of your field trips in the desegregated 
areas, did you by any chance go to Louisville, Ky.?

A. I personally went to Louisville.



42

Q. Do you recall what type of desegregation plan they had?
A. I donft recall how it was instituted and I don*t recall the 

number of Negroes that are now in schools that were 
formerly white . As I recall, they moved into what 
they called a voluntary plan, as I recall, and to 
what extent they moved I don’t know.

Q. l>o you recall that they had a variation of the freedom 
plan of choice where students would be able to make 
their choice, to go to a desegregated school or not?

A. Someway I was under the impression that they had— . Now, 
whether this was the initial step or not I donft 
recall— but I was under the impression that they 
had zoned their school district.

Q, Do you recall whether or not there was a initial response 
that was relatively smqll and then increased in sub­
sequent years?

A. I have the record. I fm sorry; I donft know.
Q. Did you go to Savannah, Georgia?
A. No, Sir, I didint.
Q. Can you list a few of the other places?
A. I went to Nashville, Davidson County and 3t. Louis—

Davidson County, Tennessee. Nashville and Davidson 
County started with grades one.

Q. Do you recall what the response was there as far as the 
number of persons seeking desegregated education 
during the initial year?



43

A. Well, in Davidson County the ratio of Negroes to whites 
was about 10 to 90— 10$ Negro and 90# white— and it 
was very limited.
In the case of Nashville, as I recall, their population 
was about 40# Negro and 60# white, and only in maybe 
two or three schools was there any appreciable mixing 
of classes, and, as I recall, they had gone as far 
as seven grades when I visited there.

Q. If you haven’t done any studies, have you received any
information that would lead you to believe that there 
would be a departure from this trend in the Jackson 
schools? In other words, have you received any 
information that there would be a large number of 
pupils in the first grade seeking this desegregated 
education?

A. Well, I have no information in the sense that we would
really be informed. I would be presuming in my guess­
ing as to what would come. I pointed out that I felt 
that the secondary level, grades seven to twelve, 
would be in serious straits.

Q. Would you be in serious straits if you had only a half- 
dozen students in all of those grades?

A. No. I thought I answered that before, but I am not sure 
that we would end with six or seven. As I said to 
you earlier, I had presumed that in this instance, 
and I still do, that there would be a more extensive



44

mixing at the secondary level than the elementary 
level.

Q. Although you admit this has not been the situation in
those

other areas,/you and your staff members have visited, 
isn’t that correct?

A. Well, that is what I have seen, as I recall. Most of these 
plans started with the first grade except when they 
began to admit youngsters on a highly screened basis, 
and we have not considered any selection of youngsters. 
Ve were going at this thing, as I said earlier, on a 
educational basis. They had their rights and we were 
going to try to give them an opportunity beginning 
with the first grade and make our program then from 
there on work with these children. I might say, 
for example, in Nashville I do recall— and this was 
a late disclosure to me and I completely overlooked 
it— that in one of the elementary schools where there 
had been considerable desegregation of classes that 
in talking with the principal of the school the prin­
cipal said to me— . I asked the question, ’’beginning 
with the first grade do you find this is something 
you work with and is it proving step by step that you 
are getting along well?” The comment there was— and 
this is what bothered me then and does now— that they 
were doing pretty well for the first two or three 
grades, but at the fourth grade the disparity in 
achievement and ability so pronounced that they were



45

having trouble. Now, that came from the experience 
of that particular school. Of course, they had been, 
in this particular community, seven years under this 
program. But it gave emphasis and gave more point to 
us that we should attempt to start with this thing 
with this knowledge of these difficulties thay they 
have experienced and that we have experienced even 
on a segregated basis and that we would try to over­
come it. And we would like to have a chance to work 
this thing over.

Q. I imagine some of your staff members went to Savannah and 
Birmingham?

A. They did, Birmingham, Savannah, Mobile, New Orleans, Baton 
Rouge, Memphis, Little Rock.

Q. As to these that went to Savannah, Birmingham and Mobile, 
desegregation was begun at the twelfth grade; do 
you recall that?

A. I don’t recall, really.
Q. Have you been made aware that the Court of Appeals for the 

Fifth Circuit has approved, as a matter of fact order­
ing, further desegregation from the top grade down?

A. Am I aware of it?
Q. Yes.
A. I am aware by newspaper reference, but I frankly say I

of
am not sure I understand the language/the Court or 
the language of attorneys when they begin to describe 
all of these plans. I get back to a simple basis; 
and that is that as we saw it and as we recommenfed it



46

we were looking at the job that we had to do in our 
community. We felt we knew the children, knew our 
people and that we could do a reasonable and a good 
educational job for them, and that's what we recom­
mended.

Q. What form of transfer procedure is the school board going 
to utilize this year?

A. You mean transfer between the school districts or trans­
fer within the district?

Q. Transfer within the district.
A. With respect to first grade pupils?
A. Abo ve the first grade.
a . I have nothing in mind contrary to what we have done 

heretofore.
Q. Under the present plan students from grades two to twelve 

will be assigned as they have been in the past, in 
the segregated times?

A. That would be our program, yes.
Q. As I further understand the plan, if any of the students 

from grade two to twelve start desegregated assign­
ments through the transfer procedures used in the 
past, that those transfers would be denied; is that 
correct?

A. I haven’t had to face that question before. I don't 
know what would be done with them.

Q. It seems the indications are from your statements that no 
desegregated assignment above the first grade are 
presently contemplated?

A. That's correct.



47

Q. Then the answer is that those transfer assignments would 
likely be denied?

A. I can’t answer that. I think we would have to look at 
that on the basis of the situation at that time?

Q. This much you can answer, that while you have indicated 
that as to the first grade the children are going to 
be assigned on a color-blind basis, that this would 
not be true as to the assignments or the transfer of 
students from grade two to twelve?

A. The temporary assignments that would be correct.
Q. What is the reason for your hesitance as to transfers?
A. I didn’t mean to hesitate on the transfers.
Q. You stated it would be true as to the initial assignments, 

preliminary assignments?
A. Well, that’s been the procedure for ten years and after 

they attend and resign, I am again in this respect 
looking at an administrative job to be done. W* 
would look at each request on the basis of merits.

Q. Does that indicate it would be possible or not possible 
for a child in grade two to twelve to receive a de­
segregated transfer ?

A, It isn’t contemplated, but I don’t know about the possibil­
ity. That is beyond my administration.

Q. Is it possible that the board has completely abandoned
pupil assignment law as far as these these transfers?

A. I can’t answer that. I ddn’t know what you mean. I 
donft believe I c ould answer.



Would it still be possible— would it still be necessary 
for students seeking transfers to go through the 
pupil assignment procedures that are a part of the 
record in this case?

Yes, those would prevail. We would recommend— * NOj I 
will put it this v/ay: they will prevail as we propose 
to administer it•

In the past had they received temporary assignments not 
to their liking, they could apply on written forms 
provided by you for transfer to other schools?

That's right.
And then would be acted on by you?
Tha t * s ri ght.

MR. WATKINS: I think counsel ovght to make it clear
that he is not talking about the grade covered by 
this plan, which is the first grade, because they 
are entirely different. He asked the question 
without indicating what grades.

Well, I was referring to grades two to twelve.
Now, how about the pupils coming into the system for the 

first time and who are above grade one. How would 
they be assigned?

Just as we have heretofore.
And in the same way the pupils in grade two to twelve 

who are presently in the system?
That's correct.

MR. BELL: I think no further questions.
THE COURT: You may stand aside, Mr. Walker.
Who will you have next?



49

(Whereupon the witness was excused)

MR. CANNADA: The defendants, trustees of the Jackson
Municipal Separate School District, rest.
MR. WATKINS: If it please the court, Biloii would
like to call Dr. Lee.
MR. BELL: I would prefer, I think the testimony is
going to be similar, and if it meets with Your Honor's 
approval, I would prefer to get all three superintend­
ents on first before we make any rebuttal testimony.
MR. CANNADA: If it please the Court, I would like
very much to get our case disposed of, if he has 
any rebuttal testimony. Y«e have separate cases.
THE COURT: Yes, I guess it would be proper procedure
to dispose of one at the time. Anything in rebuttalf 
Mr. Bell?
;R . BELL: I wanted, really, a little time to review
my material and that is one reason I was requesting 
the other system^
THE COURT: Very well. It is ten minutes to twelve and
we will take a recess until 1:30.

(Noon recess)

MR. BELL: We have decided not to put on any testi­
mony-just to make our argument in support of our 
objections.
THE COURT: V.;ry well, and you rest?



50

MR. BELL: Yes, Sir.
THE COURT: Before I hear argument, Gentlemen, I
have been thinking over this thing, of course, ever 
since the plan was filed. I read them and the three 
plans are substantially the same. And after Mr. 
Walker1* testimony this morning, which is all the 
testimony in the City of Jackson case, I think that 
the best plan would be at this time— . Well, before 
I start on that, I am in accord with something Mr.
Bell said when the case was on trial on its merits—  

or maybe some discussion before the case came up on 
the merits— but he made the expression, with which I 
heartily agree, and that is that they wanted the seg­
regation to be as quite and as amicable and agreeable 
as is possible and that any ill feeling toward any­
body be forgotten, so forth, if they ever had any. I 
thought about that and I gave thought about the law..

I am of the opinion that the law is this: that in 
determining the question of whether to approve or 
disapprove a plan would be to take as one of the 
guide steps, one of them, thqt the best interest of 
all the children in the school district would be of 
prime importance. That*s a cardinal rule of law 
whenever the interest and welfare of chldren are 
concerned. It is especially true in contested 
matters between parents, so forth, as to who should 
have custody of the child, all of which we unanimously



51

agree with, that the guiding star is what is for the 
best interest of the child. Now, in these school 
cases these children are the onest who are to receive 
an education and it is the desire of the parent and 
everyone that they do receive the best education 
available. So I think the best interest of the 
child is the one guiding star— -to get an education 
for all the children. The children are the ones who 
will live with it through their whole lives.
So, now I have heard all this testimony and understand 
these three plans, and before I hear argument on the 
matter I believe I will announce what my thinking is.

I think the best thing to do is to tentatively 
approve this plan. I think that it is feasible and 
under all the circumstances shown in this particular 
case is fair and just and would best subserve the best 
interest of all the children of the entire district.

So, I have just about reached the conclusion to 
tentatively approve the plan, because I believe it is 
a fair plan under all the circumstances, and recess 
this hearing until a future date, say sometime in 
January or February or March, so as to give the plan 
a trial and give the board, the teachers and admin­
istrators a chance to see how to put it into effect 
and reserve the jurisdiction of the Court to change 
the plan or to modify the plan or to require a new 
plan and hear that sometime in the early spring so 
that if there were any objections to any procedures



52

that the board might determine at that time to 
outline, then I would have ample time in which to 
hear it and determine the question as to whether or not 

the plan should be changed or modified or approved, 
and I think ultimately and finally I will have juris­
diction of these matters until the schools are com­
pletely desegregated or whether it would be two grades, 
three grades or five grades later on.

But at this time it is my judgment that this is 
the best course to pursue and I think that is what 
I am going to do, but I certainly want to give counsel 
on both aides an opportunity to beheard as to whether 
I should proceed that way or not.

Mr. Bell', what do you say?
MR. BELL; Well, our primary problem would be to 
ascertain from the superintendents of both the Leake 
County and the Biloxi Boards the same sort of details 
which took up most of our examination with Mr. .alker 
as to the Jackson case this morning. That would be 
point one. Point two, I didnTt put testimony on as 
to our one main concern, because it isn’t easily 
available, and I thought I could make my point in 
my argument, and that is this:— and I think it would 
hold as to all three cases, all three plans-- 
THE COURT: So we night get together with all three 
at once, are you willing to concede that the testimony 
would be substantially as that given by Mr. Walker 
this morning?



53

MR. WELLS: Yes, Sir, with this addition: We have in Leake
is

County another problem that/in addition to what was testi­
fied and that is that in Leake County there are no separate 
high schools or junior high schools. There are eight schools 
in the county. All of them start with the first grade and go 
through the twelfth grade. We have a financial problem 
in Leake County, just barely being able to operate on the 
money that is available now, resulting in the the fact that 
in most of the schools one teacher i3 teaching two grades 
in each school and our proof would show that if the number of 
students we anticipate coming into these schools in the 
first grade this year, and if more than one grade came in, 
there would not be in any one school teachers available to 
teach them; no money to hire another teacher; would have more 
children in a room than would be permissible and put the 
accreditation of that school into jeopardy. Further, that 
a request has been made of the Board of Supervisors for more 
money this year and they were told that there was no more 
money available for 1964-65. Effort would be made, perhaps, 
to change that situation in another year. If that situation 
did change for the years 1965-66, the schools would be in a 
position, perhaps, to hire more teachers and be in better 
shape to take care of this situation.

We lave that additional problem, if the Court please.
THE COURT: What does the City of Biloxi say, Mr.

Watkins?



54

MR. WATKINS: The City of Biloxi school system would 
like to adopt the testimony of Mr. .alker, both as to 
the reasons of the plan and as to how they propose 
to administer the plan. We would like to adopt his 
testimony.
THE COURT: Substantially the same?
MR. WATKINS: Yes, Sir.
MR. WELLS: Of course Leake County also would like
to adopt that testimony, with that additional problem 
which we have.
THE COURT: I believe, Gentlemen, you can argue the
three together. You started out together with the 
three cases and I would like to wind up together with 
the three as nearly as we cqn. So, Mr. Bell, I will 
hear from you.
MR. BELL: I have gotten no impression from reading 
the plan, or hearing the testimony, that the plans 
were not offered in the best of faith and I think the 
plaintiffs are appreciative of that in view of the 
lengthy litigation that has gone on in this case.
I think, moreover, that beginning in the first grade- 
limitation of desegregation to the first grade— this 
position will be very hard to argue against if the 
matter which, I believe, ^r. Walker and the others 
assume were going to take place. That assumption is 
that in September there will be a sizeable percentage 
of the Negro children who would excercise their 
option and request admission to previously white



55

schools. Now, we have two things on that: our 
experience in other school cases— and I guess we have 
handled just about all of them— has been that in 
the initial year when the parents are given a choice, 
whether you start at the first grade or the twelfth 
grade, or, many areas where you get freedom of choice 
in all twelve grades, that there isn’t a tremendous 
number of parents who rushed over to take advantage 
of the opportunity to get a desegregated education. 
Now, the reasons vary, but generally there is, one, 
an agreement tha desegregation is a good thing but 
reluctance to have their child exposed as one of the 
pioneers in the desegregation process.
Now, as you go into the second, third and fourth 
years this reluctance gradually disappears, so I 
think by the time you get to the fourth year you have 
a goodly number seeking desegregated education.
Now, there is no reason to believe that the exper­
ience throughout the rest of the south where schools
have been desegregated and in the north, for that mat-

opportunities
ter, where studentrf/have been provided for children 
to go to other than in their traditional neighborhood 
schools, but there is no basis to conclude the 
situation is going to be different in Jackson, Leake 
County or Biloxi. As a matter of fact, because of 
other factors operating in the state, none of which 
I have reason to believe the school boards are 
responsible for, to the contrary, as a matter of



56

fact, based on what has happened here. But there are 
a number of factors that would tend to lessen, even, 
the small number of parents who would be taking ad­
vantage of their opportunities to go to a desegre­
gated school. Why is that important here? I think 
it is important, as I said earlier, because much of 
the board justification for limiting desegregation 
to one grade seems to be based on tha assumption 
there is going to be a sizeable number of kids coming 
in in the first grade and there their hands will be 
full solving the problem of adjustment at this level.

It is also important now for the reason that in 
designating „ shat we should have an initial start 
in September 1964, I think the Court of appeals, and 
perhaps this court as well, was of the mind it was 
at long, last time to get started on this thing and 
I think it is going to be beneficial, and this is based 
on our experience in other areas, if this start is a 

worthwhile start and not a start of two or three child­
ren in a whole school system who immediately are made 
subject of attack by those who oppose the thing and 
who because of small numbers have a much more diffi­
cult time adjusting than would otherwise by the si­
tuation.

So that, the first grade as a starting place— and 
limiting it to the first grade only— is only worth­
while if we can assure ourselves there is going to be 
a substantial desegregation process taking place in



the first grade. And, as I indicated, this probably 
won't happen because generally there is reluctance 
in the first year and particularly there are problems 
in Mississippi that would increase that reluctance.
It is for that reason the plaintiffs had objected, 
one, to the limitation of desegregation to the first 
grade; two, had suggested that the board show actually 
do the assignments themselves, since the burden has 
been placed on the school boards by the courts to 
effectuate the desegregation process and this burden 
shouldn’t be passed back to the parents.
Now, I say in all frankness that while some courts, 
particularly the Sixth Circuit, have required the 
assignment by the board; other courts, particularly 
in the Fourth Circuit, have indicated freedom of 
choice is a valid method by which desegregation can 
be effectuated. I think there is strong argument 
because of the situation in Mississippi to require the 
desegregation to be done by the bo ;rd, however, if 
it should be the ruling or opinion of this court 
that in this situation the freedom of choice method 
is sufficient and that the board should not be against 
their will forced to draw up zones and assign all 
students according to non racial criteria within 
the zones, then that freedom of choice should be 
initiated on a basis that will insure that there is 
Meaningful desegregation, and by that I mean more than 
two or three people. I think if it took in all the



grades there wouldn’t be a tremendous number of 
students, probably less than a hundred, if you had 
all the grades. But, certainly, limiting it to one 
grade puts in jeopardy the possibility of meaningful 
desegregation and we need that I believe to get through 
this change peacefully and in an orderly fashion.

Also for those reasons the plaintiffs had pointed 
out that in the Court of Appeals opinions, the rec­
ent opinions, they had stated what they referred to 
as minimal standards which should be contained in all 
desegregation plans— 'indicating there should be a 
reasonable start within the grade in which the start 
is made, eliminating all ghoul assignments. It also 
indicated that people coming into the system from the 
outside, regardless of the grade should not be sub­
jected to a segregated system and should be assigned 
to a school on a basis that has nothing to do with 
race.

The school board here in Jackson, and I assume 
the other areas, too, does not plan to do this.

In addition, the Fifth Circuit has indicated 
that while one grade should be desegregated, there 
should be through the method of transfer plan or 
pupil assignment plan or some other plan an oppor­
tunity given to students above those grades which 
are being desegregated entirely to make application 
for transfer to a desegregated school and to have 
those applications ruled on on a basis that does 
not have anything to do with race. In this group



59

I think would come our plaintiffs. I say that while 
this is a class suit and while the plaintiffs here 
benefit because of the beginning of desegregation of 
the systems in which they are presently attending 
schools, that we shouldn’t depart too far from the 
traditional ideas of the law suit, and that is bring 
a suit in which you are interested in personal relief 
as well as relief for the class. Now, in effectua­
ting and beginning a desegregation of the system 
there is in a sense some personal relief, but I 
believe the plaintiffs in each of these cases, and 
their number? are not great,— perhaps no more than 
six in the Jackson case, about fifteen in the Biloxi 
case and I think about twenty-five in the Leake County 
case— who have borne the burden of this litigation in 
all the sacrifices that were a part of it are them­
selves entitled to some relief. Judge Groomes, for 
example, always lets the plans go, notwithstanding 
what the plan is. Other judges say, as one judge in 
fennessee, that the plaintiffs are like Moses, that 
they were privileged to lead their people to the 
promised land and view the promised land from Mt. 
Pisgah, but not the privilege to go in. It is a 
very colorful biblical reference, but I think unfair.
I think the plaintiffs are entitled to obtain deseg­
regated education, both because it is the fair thing, 
and because in these situations we are quite frankly 
not sure— based on our check in the community--at



60

this moment that we are going to have any people making 
applications at the first grade. Permitting the 
plaintiffs to have desegregated educations will insure 
that there is some desegregation started in September 
in compliance with the orders of the Federal Court.

I think that, based on the explanations that have 
been given here, that we would have no further ob­
jection about the method of the freedom of choice 
assignment. While it talks in terms of proximity 
and administrative problems, there seems to be clear 
that any student who seeks a desegregated education, 
while he may not be able to get it at the first 
school where he applies, will be able to get a deseg­
regated education. And that clears up that problem*

Also, as to the publication, I get the impression 
that the publication giving the public what their 
rights under this plan will be sufficient and ade­
quate. So, therefore, our objections still come 
now to the problem that because there is an assump­
tion, which we think is not well founded— generally 
and particularly not in Mississippi— that there will 
be a large number applying in the first grade; that 
meaningful desegregation, more than one or two stu­
dents, is not certain, and if only one or two students 
are desegregated in each of the situations then the 
danger of the desegregation process getting off the 
ground successfully is going to be greater than if 
we can have, perhaps, two dozen students and we can



61

assure that we do have this number by giving the plain­
tiffs an opportunity of securing a desegregated edu­
cation, and, in addition, this will equate with 
equity and fairness as to the plaintiffs.

THE COURT: Well, as you say, this is a class
action and I dare say that if I gave the relief to 
those not in the class that would probably of ne­
cessity require modification at this time to deseg­
regate several grades to do that. So as it started 
out as a class action, I am of the opinion that is 
the best procedure for an amicable and orderly 
manner of desegregation of the schools in this dis­
trict. Now, I have implicit confidence. I think 
these men administering the school systems in the 
City of Jackson, Biloxi and Leake County are people 
of highest honesty and integrity. I am certainly 
impressed with the testimony of Mr. alker as to 
his honesty, integrity and good faith, and, just as 
he said, he will be color blind when it comes to 
making the assignments. And I am frank to say, 
that I am reluctant— of course I recognize the fact 
that the courts have the duty and the power to compel 
most anything with reference to integration immed­
iately— but I hesitate and am reluctant to put my 
judgment, never having taught school in my life, up 
against those administrators of the school system as 
to how it is best to run the schools of a city; and 
since this is a change in the life of the nation during 
this turn-over, I think the judgment of those who



62

have experience and have made studies of how to run 
a school system are more qualified to establish the 
best method that can be had, far better than the 
average judge is.

I believe that, therefore, the rights of all would 
be protected by the course of tentatively approving 
this plan so as to be put into effect as to the 
first grade of these schools at the September term.
And I think it will orderly go along and be no di­
fficulty in nakin all the arrangements for each and 
all of those there. But if you put more than that 
there is going to be confusion and probably a slowing 
up of the education to which the child is entitled.

Also, I am of the opinion there will be quite a 
number of those who will make application for the 
change, and, as I4r. Walker said, they certainly will 
be given the same and identical treatment as those of 
the white race. I am convinced he means that and I 
think it will be a fine showing to be made here in 
the first efforts to intagrate thepublic schools in 
Mississippi.

3o I am going to take that course, Gentlemen. I 
have given considerable thought to it. I am going to 
tentatively approve this plan, permitting the first 
grade, and I am going to continue the further hearing 
of it until some future date no later than April 
in order to see what the experience these schools have



63

developed from that time. I can modify the plan, 
change the plan or require a new plan if these 
didn’t turn out satisfactorily. I believe it will 
be to the paramount interest to every child in this 
district that that course be followed.

That is what I will do and an order may be drawn
tentatively approving until further notice, reserving
jurisdiction to modify or change to a new plan and
recess this hearing until sometime in April, the
exact date to be fixed at 30me future date.
An order may be drawn in accord with that ruling.
That applies to all three of the schools.
MR. BELT.: You indicated a little earlier, and I was

be
thinking it may/well, based on changes that would be 
requested by the plaintiffs or changes by the defend­
ants, for that matter, in the plan for subsequent 
school years, we of course reserve our objection to 
the one grade, and to the indie tiori that there would 
only be one grade in each year coming up, and I think 
the court has been fairly clear to the fact that a 
grade a year would not be enough. Now it would be 
too early at this point for the board to say that 
they are going to go along with only one grade a 
year, however, assumming they should suggest next year 
that only one more grade be taken, and that this be 
approved or that we suggest that the sixth grade be 
taken and that might be approved, then there .light 
be desire of appeal by one side or the other, and 
for that reason I think it would facilitate the ad­



64

ministration of the school , if any appeal be forth­
coming from the plan next year it could be taken in 
time it could be resolved and give the board a chance 
to make its plans prior to everybody leaving for the 
summer, which would be about the middle of May. So 
for all of those reasons I would suggest that we plan 
to have a further he .ring perhaps in January.
THE COURT: Very well, we can have it in January and
see where we are, and if we need a little more time 
for developments we will give it. Certainly the one 
grade a year is not going to be continued throughout 
the entire twelve years, but the situation is this: 
what I want to see is an orderly integration and I 
believe this is the best method to be obtained. And 
then, as I said, reserve jurisdiction to change, 
modify or require a new one, and then maybe next year 
maybe two or three, the following year maybe three or 
four, something like that can be worked oat as time 
progresses. Certainly you have a right under the 
ruling I made to offer a plan yourself if you wanted 
to at that hearing, or just wait and see what does 
develop in that time.
Tiie order will be taken for January and the Court will 
fix the date at a later time.

____ _________________ ______

('■ hereupon the hearing was recessed until a date 
to be fixed)



65

COURT'S RiSPORT SK'3 .̂ HTXFICATS

I hereby certify that the foregoing sixty-four (64) pages 
constitute a true and correct transcript of the testimony and 
proceedings ĥ .d in this cause before Kon. 3. C. Mize, U. 8* 
District Judge for he Southern Dist ict of Mississippi, on 
the 29th day of July, 1964, at Hattiesburg, Mississippi, in 
the Hattiesburg Division of The Southern district of Mississippi, 
This the 3th day of February, 1965*

I rdan, Court Reporter