Escambia County, FL v. McMillan Joint Appendix Vol. II

    No. 82-1295

IN THE
Supreme Court of the United States

OCTOBER TERM, 1982

ESCAMBIA COUNTY, FLORIDA, et al.,
Appellants,

v.
HENRY T. McMILLAN, et al.,

Appellees.

ON APPEAL FROM THE UNITED STATES COURT OF 
APPEALS FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT

JOINT APPENDIX  
VOL. II -  Pages 325-602

CHARLES S. RHYNE 
Counsel o f Record 

J. LEE RANKIN 
THOMAS D. SILVERSTEIN 

Rhyne & Rankin 
1000 Connecticut Ave., N.W. 
Suite 800
Washington, D.C. 20036 
(202) 466-5420

THOMAS R. SANTURRI 
Escambia County Attorney 
28 West Government Street 
Pensacola, Florida 32501 
(904) 436-5450

Attorneys for Appellants

EDWARD STILL 
Counsel of Record 
Reeves and Still 
Suite 400 
Commerce Center 
2027 1st Avenue North 
Birmingham, Alabama 35203

JAMES U. BLACKSHER 
LARRY T. MENEFEE 

Blacksher, Menefee & Stein, 
P.A.

4051 Van Antwerp Bldg.
P. O. Box 1051 
Mobile, Alabama

JACK GREENBERG 
NAPOLEON B. WILLIAMS 

Legal Defense Fund 
10 Columbus Circle 
New York, New York 10019

KENT SPRIGGS 
Spriggs & Henderson 
117 South Martin Luther 
King, Jr. Bldg.

Tallahassee, Florida 32301
Attorneys for Appellees

Appeal Docketed February 2, 1983 
Probable Jurisdiction Noted April 18, 1983



TABLE OF CONTENTS 

VOLUME I

Page

Docket Entries.............................................................................................1
District C ourt..........................................................................  1
Court of A ppeals.................................................................................. 30

Complaint ................................................................................................ 45

Answer and Affirmative Defenses — Escambia County.....................52

Consolidation O rder................................................................................ 59

Arnow, C. J. Letter to Counsel of R ecord .......... ................................ 61

Pretrial Stipulation .................................................................................. 64

Pretrial Order............................................................................................ 77

Notice of Proposed County Charter ..................................................... 82

Excerpts of Trial Transcript..................................................................146
Testimony of Dr. Jerrell H. Shofner........................................... 146
Testimony of Dr. Glenn David C urry......................................... 229
Testimony of Charlie L. Taite ................  255
Testimony of Otha Leverette ....................................................... 271
Testimony of Dr. Donald Spence ............................................... 280
Testimony of Billy Tennant ......................................................... 310

VOLUME II

Testimony of Julian B anfell..........................................................325
Testimony of Orellia Benjamin Marshall ...................................334
Testimony of F. L. Henderson..................................................... 338
Testimony of Elmer Jenkins..........................................................341
Testimony of Nathaniel Dedmond............................................... 348
Testimony of James L. Brewer ................................................... 357
Testimony of Cleveland McWilliams ......................................... 361
Testimony of Earl J. Crosswright ............................................... 363

(i)



Testimony of William H. M arshall........ ...................................374
Testimony of Dr. Charles L. Cottrell ........................................398
Testimony of James J. Reeves ........................................... .. 436
Testimony of Hollice T. Williams ............................................. 438
Testimony of Governor Reubin A skew .......................................452
Testimony of Marvin G. Beck ............ .......................................470
Testimony of Kenneth J. Kelson ............................................ .... 495
Testimony of Charles Deese, Jr. ................................................ 507
Testimony of Jack Keeney ........................... .................. ............532
Testimony of A. J. B oland ............................................................549
Testimony of Laurence Green ......................................................560
Testimony of Dr. Manning J. Dauer ............................... .. 578
Colloquy Between the Court and Counsel .................................598

VOLUME III

Plaintiffs’Exhibits................................................................................ 603

Exhibit 6 Demographic Tables — Pensacola Florida............603

Exhibit 8 Voter Registration, City of Pensacola................... 731

Exhibit 14 Excerpts — Computer Printouts Analyzing
Voting Patterns for Selected Elections...................733

Exhibit 16 Statistical Analysis of Racial Element in
Escambia County, Pensacola City Elections . . . .  771

Exhibit 17 Neighborhood Analysis, Pensacola SMSA .......... 799

VOLUME IV

Exhibit 21 United Way of Escambia County, Inc. — 
Community Planning Division Composite 
Socio-Economic Index for the 40 Census 
Tracts ............................................................................919

Exhibit 23 Excerpt — Statistical Profile of Pensacola
and the SMSA................    1006

Exhibit 25 Escambia County and Pensacola SMSA — 
Population Trends; Racial Composition; 
Population by Tract; Age Distribution.................. 1016

(ii)



Exhibit 32 Selected Deeds Conveying Property Located
in Escambia County ....................................... . . . 1 0 3 6

Exhibit 33 Votes Cast for all Candidates in Selected
Precincts — September 1976 Primary .................1047

Exhibit 55 Materials Relating to the City of Pensacola:
Adoption of At-large Election System in 1959 ..  1052

Exhibit 66 County Boards and Committees ..........................1106

Exhibit 70 Excerpt — 1976-77 Annual Budget of
Escambia......................................................................1108

Exhibit 71 Summary Analysis (County Recreation) ..........  1111

Exhibit 73 Transcript of Proceedings of Escambia Coun­
ty Board of County Commission at August 
31, 1977 Public Hearing ........  1131

Exhibit 80 1973-77 Escambia County, City of Pensacola 
EEO-4 Summary Job Classification and 
Salary Analysis ......................................................... 1142

Exhibit 92 Letter Appearing in the Pensacola News Jour­
nal, August 23, 1959 ............ .............. ................ .. 1152

Exhibit 95 Editorial Appearing in the Pensacola Journal,
August 13, 1959 ......................     1153

VOLUME V

Exhibit 98 Proposal of Charter Commission Appointed
in 1975 ...........................................   H55

Exhibit 99 Recommendations by Minority of Charter
Commission Appointed in 1975 ............    1225

Exhibit 100 Proposal of Charter Commission Appointed
in 1977 ....................................................................  1228

(iii)



(iv)

District Court Order Denying Stay of December 3, 1979
Remedial Order ..................................................................................... 1261

Excerpts of Trial of Testimony of Dr. Glenn David
Curry.......................................   1267

Excerpts of Trial Testimony of Dr. Manning F.
Dauer ..................................................................................................... 1284

NOTE

The following opinions, decisions, judgments, and orders have been 
omitted in printing the Joint Appendix because they appear in the 
Appendices to the Jurisdictional Statement as follows:

Page

Decision on Rehearing of the Fifth Circuit in 
McMillan v. Escambia County, Florida, 688 
F.2d 960(5th Cir. 1982) .................................................. . . . . . . .  A -la

Decision of the Fifth Circuit in McMillan v.
Escambia County, Florida, 638 F.2d 1239
(5th Cir. 1981) ...............................................................................B-30a

Decision of the Fifth Circuit in McMillan v.
Escambia County, Florida, 638 F.2d 1249
(5thCir. 1981) ......................... ..................................................... B-52a

Memorandum Decision and Order of the United 
States District Court for the Northern District 
of Florida in McMillan v. Escambia County,
Florida, PCA No. 77-0432 (N.D. Fla. Dec. 3, 1979)...............B-54a

Memorandum Decision of the United States District 
Court of the Northern District of Florida in 
McMillan v. Escambia County, Florida
PCA No. 77-0432 (N.D. Fla., Sept. 24, 1979) ................... B-66a

Memorandum Decision and Judgment of the United 
States District Court of the Northern District 
of Florida in McMillan v. Escambia County,
Florida, PCA No. 77-0432 (N.D. Fla. July 10, 1978) ............ B-71a



(V)

Judgment in McMillan v. Escambia County, 
Florida, 688 F.2d 960 (5th Cir. 1982)............ C-l 16a



325

TESTIMONY OF JULIAN J. BANFELL

[594] JULIAN J, BANFELL, called as a witness by 
the plaintiffs, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. BLACKSHER:
Q. May it please the Court, this is Mr. Julian J. 

Banfell. He resides at 705 South “I” Street in Pensacola. 
He’s fifty years old, born and raised in Pensacola. His pre­
sent employment is that of a plumbing contractor. Is that 
correct, Mr. Banfell? A. That’s true.

Q. Mr. Banfell, were you a member of the Escambia 
County, strike that, the Pensacola City Council during the 
period 1955 to ’61? A. I was.

Q. Do you remember the election between Charlie 
Taite and Admiral Mason in 1955? [595] A. I re­
member the election, yes, sir.

Q. Would you describe to the Court what the reaction 
of the council members was to the Taite-Mason election.

MR. CATON: Your Honor, I would object to that. The 
best evidence of that would be the council minutes where it 
was discussed. He can ask him what his reaction was to it.

THE COURT: I don’t see how you can get to this. If 
you show me some way to let you go this far, but you’re 
asking him something about reactions and it’s way out.

MR. BLACKSHER: Judge, I submit this is the kind of 
testimony that Rule 701 of the Rules of Evidence concern­
ing lay testimony was intended to cover where it says that 
the witness is not testifying as an expert, his opinions or in­
ferences are limited to those opinions and inferences which 
are (a) rationally based on the perception of the witness 
and, (b) helpful to a clear understanding of his testimony



326

or the determination of a fact in issue. To allow this 
witness, who was a participant, simply to describe his 
perceptions of what was going on —

THE COURT: He can certainly give us his own reaction 
and I didn’t say he couldn’t do that, but you’re trying now 
to get him to give us, describe the [596] reactions of oth­
er to it when they may or may not have had reactions, or 
as a minimum he has to judge their reactions by something 
that he saw or heard. I just don’t understand how you can 
carry it this far.

MR. BLACKSHER: Let me try it this way, please.
THE COURT: What was that, Rule 701 you were trying 

to bring it under?
MR. BLACKSHER: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: You can take him on his own reactions, 
what he went into. I realize we go pretty far in a case of 
this kind, sir, but I don’t — have you got any case citing, 
have you got any case to show me in which this kind of 
testimony went in?

MR. BLACKSHER: I have not researched the case law 
under this new rule, no, Your Honor. I would have to pro­
vide that after we’re given the opportunity to do that.

MR. LOTT: Your Honor, may I respond?

THE COURT: How’s that?

MR. LOTT: The note to the rule indicates that the 
limitations of (a) and (b) is the first one is the first hand 
knowledge requirement and the second one discusses the 
problem when the witness is not able to express himself in 
language other than what his opinion is. The kind of opi­
nion testimony that this kind of rule is contemplating here 
is something like were they [597] surprised or some­
thing like that.



327

THE COURT: I have that feeling too but I’m go­
ing to sustain the objection at the present time and if 
during the recess you can ask your witness to stay and 
come back, if during the recess you can give me further 
basis I’ll consider it again, but that’s my understanding of 
Rule 701 too, what Mr. Lott said about it.

Q. Let me try this question, may it please the Court. 
Mr. Banfell, was there shock on the council as a result of 
the Taite-Mason election?

MR. CATON: Your Honor, I’ll object to that question 
as being leading.

THE COURT: The objection will be overruled at this 
point. We’ve got him so confined in asking questions, ob­
jection will be overruled.

Q. That means you may answer.
A. It was surprise and amazement that Mr. Taite had 

come very close to defeating Admiral Mason, yes, sir.

Q. Were you privy to conversations by council 
members and remarks by council members off the record 
concerning the nature of their surprise? What remarks 
were made concerning the election?

MR. CATON: Your Honor —

[598] THE COURT: Objection sustained.

A. Well, we —
THE COURT: the objection was sustained.
Q. You can’t answer the question, Mr. Banfell. Mr. 

Banfell, was the surprise expressed by the council regar­
ding this particular election related to the fact that Mr. 
Taite is a black person?



328

MR. CATON: Your Honor, now we’re getting into the 
gist of it. He’s testified that there was a reaction. Now he’s 
asking him to testify as to what councilmen felt of 
thought, and that’s hearsay.

THE COURT: I’m going to let him go this one step fur­
ther. I’m going to let him answer that question.

Q. You may answer that question.

A. Would you rephrase the question, please? I didn’t 
understand you.

Q. I’m saying, I’m asking you if the fact that Mr. Taite 
was black had to do with the surprise or shock that the 
council members expressed.

A. Oh, yes, surely.

Q. What did it have to do with it?

MR. CATON: I’ll object that I think we’re going too far 
there.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. I’m trying to stay 
with you as far as I can, Mr. Blacksher. You can ask [599] 
this man about his own reactions to it, and he can 
testify. He was a member of that council, wasn’t he?

Q. All right, Mr. Banfell, what were your reactions to 
the Taite-Mason election?

A. This, I was elected at the same time, and —

THE COURT: You mean at the same time in this race?

A. Yes, 1955, and 1 didn’t take office till June, which 
wa a month or so away. My reaction was surprise and 
amazement. I had just gotten into politics. I was only 
twenty-seven years old at the time and I just didn’t know 
what to make of it.



329

Q. Why were you surprised? A. Well, prior to that 
to my knowledge there had never been a black on the city 
council.

Q. Mr. Banfell, in 1956 did the council reapportion or 
redraw the boundary for Ward Two in which the Taite- 
Mason race had occurred? A. Under the charter as I 
remember it, we’re going back a long ways, but under the 
charter as I remember it before each council election there 
had to be reapportionment as the population grew and 
shifted. And, yes, there was changes in boundaries and 
zones.

Q. Was there any effort in that 1956 apportionment to 
add white voters onto Ward Two?

[600] MR. CATON: Your Honor, I’ll object to that as 
being leading and assuming a point in issue.

THE COURT: I’m going to let him answer. Objection 
overruled.

Q. You may answer that, Mr. Banfell.
A. Yes, I think that they didn’t want a recurrence —
MR. CATON: Your Honor, I’ll object to this testimony 

as not being responsive to the question and citing hearsay 
as to what they wanted.

MR. BLACKSHER: Your Honor, this gentleman was a 
member of the council

THE COURT: He was indeed a member of the council. 
He did go beyond the question but I’m going to let him 
answer.

Q. Go ahead, Mr. Banfell. You may answer. A. 
With the interruption, would you please ask me the ques­
tion again.



330

Q. Yes, sir. My question was whether or not there was 
a conscious effort to increase the number of white voters 
in Ward Two by the redrawing of the boundaries in 
’56. A. Would Ward Two be Admiral Mason’s ward?

Q. That’s the one. A. Yes. There was a shifting of 
population and [601] redrawing of the boundaries 
which was, happened, as I said, before every election, and 
the boundaries were shifted.

THE COURT: Well, that’s not exactly what he’s trying 
to ask you, I think. You had the duty to reapportion each 
time to make the population equal?

A. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: As nearly as possible.

A. Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Now, was there any other consideration 

that entered into the addition of these two white, these two 
precincts, whatever they were, to Ward Two, other than 
that consideration? In other words was it motivated by 
racial considerations, if I need to ask it that way?

A. Well, they didn’t want a recurrence of what had 
happened in 1955.

Q. What do you mean? What had happened? 
A. Mr. Taite narrowly, coming very close to defeating 
Admiral Mason.

MR. CATON: Your Honor, I would move that that 
testimony be stricken as to again hearsay, what they 
wanted; number two, motives behind what they, whoever 
“they” is, wanted.

THE COURT: With deference to you, sir, I’m again go­
ing to overrule it. This gets into the heart of the area [602] 
I can appreciate your concern in this matter but we are



331

trying to get to the truth of this matter too and i was think­
ing you might even want to welcome such testimony as this 
to give you an opportunity to answer it. Your objection in 
any event is overruled and the motion is denied.

MR. CATON: Yes, sir, I understand we’re trying to get 
to the truth. I just want it to come from the horse’s mouth.

THE COURT: Well, it has come from something pretty 
close to it. He’s a member of that commission, and you 
can bring others on to testify to the contrary, if that’s what 
you’re talking about. Let’s go ahead with this. The objec­
tion is overruled.

Q. Mr. Banfell, I would like now to direct your atten­
tion to the events in 1959 leading up to passage of a special 
act in the Legislature that changed the five district elec­
tions in the city council to at-large elections. Do you recall 
the city, being part of the meetings between the city coun­
cil members and the legislative delegation to discuss 
this? A. Yes, sir, we met with the legislative delegation.

Q. All right, sir, could you tell us what some of the 
reasons given by the council members to the [603] 
legislative delegation were for asking for that change?

MR. CATON: Your Honor, I don’t know if it’s 
necessary that I continue to object on this, asking for 
reasons that other council members gave, which is hear­
say, and motivation also.

THE COURT: All right, sir, it would be hearsay but if 
he heard them giving the reasons to somebody else it 
wouldn’t be quite that kind of hearsay. I’ll overrule the ob­
jection.

Q. You may answer. A. The reasons for the 
Legislature —



332

Q. Changing the districts. A. Changing the law to 
at-large?

Q. Yes, sir. A. Well, it was felt that if everybody 
ran at-large then it wouldn’t be this hassle for reapportion­
ment so bad every time there was a council race coming 
up. And we, it made it, the council members running at- 
large, then it would make no difference other than popula­
tion being equally divided within the five wards.

Q. Specifically, Mr. Banfell, was the legislative 
delegation told that one of that reasons for the apportion­
ment would have been to prevent the opportunity of 
blacks from being elected to one of these districts seats, to 
one of these districts seats? [604] A. That I don’t 
specifically recall. Here again we’re gog back a long time, 
Your Honor.

THE COURT: I understand, sir. If you can’t recall, just 
say so.

A. I can’t recall.

THE COURT: If you can say so, say that.

A. But I believe that that was probably the —
MR. CATON: Your Honor, I’ll object as to probably. 

If he can’t recall, I think that’s the extent of his answer.
THE COURT: If you can’t recall, sir, either you recall 

something about it or you don’t, sir.
A. Yes, I’d have to say that that was, that was the 

reason for changing this around where we would have 
everybody run at-large.

THE COURT: You mean the black feature of it was the 
reason for changing it around? You previously testified 
they didn’t want to have these elections, this reapportion­
ment, every two years.



333

A. Well, by charter we still had to have reapportion­
ment regardless.

THE COURT: Well, your answer -
A. But you had to have, you had to have the, 

everybody run at-large.
THE COURT: That was what you were changing to?

[605] A. That’s right.
THE COURT: And the reason for that change was 

what?
A. Was because then we wouldn’t have this hassle of 

reapportioning to keep so many blacks in this ward and so 
many whites in that ward and keep the population in 
balance as to race.

THE COURT: All right, sir. Go ahead, Mr. Blacksher.

MR. BLACKSHER: That’s all we have of this witness, 
Your Honor.

***********



334

TESTIMONY OF ORELLIA BENJAMIN MARSHALL

[609] ORELLIA BENJAMIN MARSHALL, called as 
a witness by the plaintiffs, being first duly sworn testified 
as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. MENEFEE
[610] May it please the Court, this is Mrs. Orellia Ben­

jamin Marshall, 1803 East Scott. She’s forty years old. 
She’s married, with one child. She’s been a lifelong resi­
dent of the Pensacola-Escambia County are. She 
graduated from Washington High School, Washington 
Junior College, Florida A & M. She is presently employed 
with the Escambia County School Board, where she 
teaches a sixth grade science class. She is a member of the 
Sixth Avenue Baptist Church, League of Women Voters 
and Democratic Party. In 1973 she was a candidate for the 
city council and at that time her name was Orellia Ben­
jamin. Is that correct, Mrs. Marshall?

A. Yes.
THE COURT: The last name I didn’t catch.

Q. Benjamin. Is that correct?

A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. Thank you. Mrs. Marshall, why did you decide to 

run for office in 1973 for the city council?

A. Because at that time I strongly felt, as I do now, we 
need black representation on the city council and also 
representation of a woman.

Q. Who was your opponent in that election?
A. Mr. Porky Paulk was my opponent.



335

Q. Why did you choose to run for that office as
[611] opposed to perhaps the county commission or the 
school board?

A. Well, I did not have the revenues available for 
qualification for county commissioner and the revenues 
were more available for this position.

Q. And the school board?

A. The school board, I’m employed by the school 
board and I cannot run for a seat on the school board 
because I cannot be my own boss.

MR. RAY: I cannot hear the witness.
Q. Would you sit up in the chair.
THE COURT: See if you can speak a little louder for 

us, please. If you keep on having problem, move on over, 
Mr. Ray.

MR. RAY: Thank you. She said school board and it 
caught my attention. What was it?

A. I cannot run for a seat on the school board because 
I’m employed by the school board as a teacher.

MR. RAY: Thank you.

Q. Thank you. Mrs. Marshall, how did you assess 
your chance of winning this election when you announced 
your candidacy? A. At the time I decided to run I 
thought and I strongly felt that Pensacola was ready to 
accept a black skin in the political arena, and a woman, 
but as the [612] campaign ran on and it ended I real­
ized I only had a dream, there was no chance of my being 
elected on the city council by the citizens of Pensacola.

Q. Is that assessment still true today? A. I strongly 
feel that today that if I run today I would not win with the 
system the way it is.



336

Q. Mrs. Marshall, did you campaign in both black 
and white communities. A. I did.

Q. And how did you go about that? A. Well, I 
took my campaign base to my church because the black 
churches are the heaviest, is the best way for us to go, and 
the only way we have to go in politics. These are the people 
that financed me. I did have whites working with me but 
they’re what you call the liberal type whites in the South, 
you know, these type whites, and we campaigned every 
way possible we could but we had limited revenues and 
limited time because at the time I still had to stay on my 
job and campaign in the afternoons.

Q. Do you think you would run again under the pre­
sent system? A. No, I would not.

Q. Both Mr. Hollice Williams and Dr. Donald Spence 
have at times in the past won election to the city [613] 
council. How do you account for this? A. They were ap­
pointed before they won any election. I call those men 
chosen men.

Q. Do you think that they are, they were able to be ef­
fective, vigorous spokesmen for the black community? 
A. Dr. Donald Spence, yes. Mr. Williams, I don’t think 
he’s a very influential man. I don’t think he has really, I 
don’t think he has the ability to be a spokesman, and the 
experience.

Q. Why do you differentiate with Dr. Spence? 
A. One reason, because of Dr. Spence’s professional 
background in comparison to Mr. Williams. Mr. Williams 
doesn’t have that professional background that Dr. Spence 
has, and that has a lot to do with it.

Q. During the course of your campaign did you find 
various issues raised in the black community that were of



337

concern to the citizens? A. The biggest concern during 
my campaign to the citizens was that the senior citizens 
and the young kids, recreational areas and things of this 
nature, and the governmental complex was hot at that 
time, revitalizing Pensacola. Those were the main issues 
we were taking at that time.

* * * * * * * * *



338

TESTIMONY OF F.L. HENDERSON

[624] F.L. HENDERSON, called as a witness by the 
plaintiffs, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. MENEFEE:

May it please the Court, this is Mr. F.L. Henderson. He 
lives at 2608 North Seventh Avenue in Pensacola. He is 
forty-three years old. He’s been a lifelong resident of Pen­
sacola and the Escambia County area. He’s presently 
employed at Eglin Air Force Base as [625] a water treat­
ment analyst. He’s married, with six children, graduated 
from Washington High School, attended Pensacola 
Junior College. He is past president of the local chapter of 
the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, served for 
ten years on the executive council of the NAACP, been ac­
tive with the Young Democrats, member and president of 
the Jehovah Lutheran Church, and an officer in the 
Toastmasters International. In 1971 he was a candidate 
for the city council. Is that a correct statement, Mr. 
Henderson? A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q. Thank you, sir. Mr. Henderson, why did you 
decide to run for the city council in 1971? A. There 
were a number of reasons I decided to run. There were a 
number of issues at that time that we thought that the 
black community should address itself to and this was one 
of the reasons I ran. I felt that some of the items that were 
discussed during that particular period of time could only 
be addressed through someone from that particular group.

Q. Why did you choose to run for the city council as 
opposed to any other office such as county commission or 
school board? A. Well, at that time I was primarily 
concerned about the things that were happening within the 
[626] city, the flight of the white people from the city,



339

the decay in the downtown area, the problem with the 
housing area and other items at that particular time.

Q. Who was your opponent in that race, Mr. Hender­
son? A. Mr. John Frenkel, Jr. at that time.

Q. Okay, sir. When you announced your candidacy, 
did you think you had much chance of success? 
A. Not a great deal of chance of success but I thought 
that the issues had to be addressed at that time and I was 
hoping that maybe there was a possibility that I could 
arouse the conscience of the total community on the things 
that we were discussing as issues at that particular time.

Q. I see, sir. In organizing your campaign and 
soliciting funds what sources of funds did you receive 
from the black community? Who did you approach for 
financial help from the black community? A. Well, I 
approached the usual places. I approached the black 
business people, the churches, et cetera, also attempted to 
approach the white community as it relates to business and 
people that had participated in the election process in the 
past on helping candidates who they felt that had 
something to offer the city or as relates to being a sports­
man.

[627] Did you have much success raising funds in the 
white community? A. Yes, I did. No, I didn’t have any 
success raising any money. In fact my total revenue from 
the white community was zero.

Q. Did you have some success in the black communi­
ty? A. I raised approximately seven hundred dollars.

Q. Do you consider that race was a major factor in 
your defeat? A. It was the primary factor in my defeat 
because as a result of the race a number of items came out 
that, how did I feel I was qualified to run for city council,



did I feel that I could represent white people in city 
government, et cetera.

Q. Do you feel that you were able to represent white 
people in city government, had you been elected? A. I 
wasn’t concerned about representing any race or people. I 
was concerned about the issues in the city at that time. My 
primary concern was trying to upgrade the quality in the 
City of Pensacola. I felt that the expertise that I had gain­
ed through working in various organizations and being ad­
dressed to the problems of the city at that time in itself 
qualified me as a candidate.

Q. Okay sir. Would you seek election again [628] 
under the present system? A. No, I will not. 
There is no possible way I feel I could win under the pre­
sent system. That’s the reason I haven’t run again.

Q. Do you think that’s true for other black can­
didates? A. Very true. I think when you look at the 
total composition of the voting, of the people that vote, 
we only can look for about 20 percent of the total electors 
and with 20 percent we cannot win an election.

Q. Both Mr. Hollice Williams and Dr. Spence have at 
times won election to the city council. How do you ac­
count for that? A. Well, we must recognize that both 
of these gentlemen were appointed to this position and this 
is again an example of the power system, to select for the 
black community their leaders, the people that they want 
to represent them. These people were not originally elected 
by the constituents of this county or this city.

Q. During the time as an officer of the SCLC and the 
NAACP were those organizations active in putting for­
ward various community issues to the city, county and 
school board? A. Yes, very much so.

340



341

TESTIMONY OF ELMER JENKINS

[722] DIRECT EXAMINATION 
BY MR. MENEFEE:

Q. Would you please state your name and address, 
please, sir.? A. My name is Elmer Jenkins. I live at 
1003 East Hayes Street, Pensacola, Florida.

Q. Okay, sir, when did you come to the Pensacola 
area, Mr. Jenkins? A. I came to Pensacola in 1959.

Q. Okay, sir, what’s your educational background, 
please, sir? A. I received a BS with high honors from 
Florida A & M, Master’s with honors at the University of 
Illinois, and I did my Ph.D. work at Florida State Univer­
sity.

Q. Have you yet received your Ph.D.? A. But I 
have yet to finish one controversial part of my dissertation 
and I should get it in June.

Q. Okay, sir, what is your present employment? 
A. I’m an associate professor of biology at Pensacola 
Junior College.

Q. Okay, sir. Mr. Jenkins, have you been active in any 
civic or religious organizations or black groups in Pen­
sacola? A. Yes. I’m a trustee of Allen Chapel A.M.E.,
[723] African Methodist Episcopal Church.

THE COURT: Mr. Jenkins, perhaps if you will sit up, 
we do have a little acoustics problem. I know they fuss at 
me when I lean back.

A. Thank you. I’ve been on the board of directors of 
the March of Dimes. I’ve worked with the Boys Scouts 
through my church. I have worked in voter registration 
drives. I have worked in various political campaigns of 
people other than myself.



342

Q. Okay, sir. Mr. Jenkins, you have been a candidate 
for public office. Would you please tell us when and for 
what office you have run. A. In 1968 I ran for county 
commission in District Five. In 1974 I ran for a school 
board position in District Three, and for the same position 
again in 1976.

Q. Okay, sir. Do you remember your opponent in the 
1968 county commission race? A. In 1968 I had three 
opponents: Mr. Armour, Mr. Gindl, and Mr. Watley.

Q. What was the outcome of the election, please, 
sir? A. I finished second in the primary, receiving 
about fourteen thousand votes, and I was in the runoff 
with Mr. Sam Armour.

[724] Q. And did you lose the runoff? A. Yes, I 
lost the runoff.

Q. Would you please tell us who your opponents were 
in the 1974 school board race.? A. In 1974 I had one 
opponent, Mr. Sanders.

Q. What was the outcome of that? A. I won that. I 
won that election by about eighteen hundred votes.

Q. Okay, sir. This was for the Democratic nomina­
tion? A. Yes.

THE COURT: You’re talking about —

A. Yes, sir.
THE COURT: You’re talking about now you won a 

primary election?
A. Yes, sir, 1974, sir.
THE COURT: That was the primary?
A. That was the primary, yes.



343

Q, And then in the general election who was your op­
ponent and what was the result? A. In the general elec­
tion my opponent was Mr. Richard Leeper, and I lost.

Q. Okay, sir. Mr. Leeper was the Republican? 
A. Yes, sir, he was.

Q. Okay, sir. Would you please tell us who [725] 
your opponent was in 1976.? A. In 1976 in an election 
that was set up, an election in Escambia County to add 
two districts to the school board, number six and seven, 
my opponents were Mr. Bailey, Mr. Forester, Mr. King, 
Mr. Lee, M r. M cG ill and M r. S o u th a rd .

Q. Okay, sir, what were the results of the 
election? A. In the primary I finished first by twenty- 
five hundred votes and I was in the runoff. I was in the 
runoff with Mr. Jim Bailey.

Q. Mr. Bailey? A. Bailey, yes.

Q. Okay, what happened in the runoff? A. I lost in 
the runoff.

Q. Do you remember the vote margin approximately? 
A. Yes. Mr. Bailey received about twenty-six thousand 
and I received around twenty-one thousand.

Q. Okay, sir. Thank you. Mr. Jenkins, why have you 
run for office? A. Well, back in 1966 when I first ran 
for office I waited until nearly the closing days of the 
qualifying period and at that time no other blacks had 
qualified for that particular election and I thought that 
blacks should become involved and participate and about 
[726] two days before the period ended there still were no 
blacks so I qualified so at least there would be one black in 
the political arena in 1968.



344

Q. Okay, sir. Did you have similar reasons for the 
1974 and ’76 races or are they different? A. Well, 
similar reasons. Again not too many blacks were par­
ticipating. In 1974 in running for a school board position I 
thought that my chances for success might be enhanced 
since I was a college professor.

Q. I see, sir. Let me make sure I understand you. How 
did the college professor, this is your background in 
education? Is that why you -  A. Yes, I thought my 
chances for a school board position might be better than 
my chances were for a county commissioner position since 
I was a qualified, competent educator.

Q. I see, sir. Mr. Jenkins, with this experience behind 
you how would you assess your chance of winning at-large 
election in Escambia County? A. Well, if I had to run 
again in a countywide election I wouldn’t run because my 
chances would be about slim to none.

Q. Do you consider that your race was a major factor 
in your defeat? [727] A. Yes, I do.

Q. Any particular reasons? A. Well, in 1968 when 
I ran for a county commissioner’s position they had six 
rallies and four of those rallies were held in territory 
that I thought was hostile to me. They had one at Escam­
bia High School, they had one at Century, they had one at 
Bratt and one in the Cantonment area.

THE COURT: Now, that was the Democratic Primary, 
wasn’t it, Mr. Jenkins? You’re talking about those rallies, 
the Democratic Primary rallies?

A. Yes, sir, that was the Democratic Primary.

THE COURT: The Democratic Party?

A. Yes, sir.



345

THE COURT: So what you mean is you’re disagreeing 
with the Democratic Party, yet from what the testimony is 
I’ve heard blacks are pretty well represented in that party 
and its local committee.

A. What I’m saying, Your Honor, is this. They had six 
rallies and they did not schedule one rally in a 
predominantly black area.

THE COURT: My point with you, sir, is that from what 
I’ve heard there’s some pretty good black representation 
on that local Democratic Committee.

A. Yes, I don’t want to differ with that, sir, [728] 
but I’m saying if there are seven rallies, if there are seven 
rallies I think at least two of the rallies should be in areas 
where I have somebody with similar pigmentation that I 
have. But if you’re familiar with Bratt, Florida, I think 
that the rally in Bratt, Florida, served to my detriment.

THE COURT: By the same token, sir, if what you need­
ed to be getting exposure in is the areas where you weren’t 
strong, that’s where you needed to be selling yourself to 
the people. What’s wrong with that? A. Well, my 
thinking, Your Honor, is this. I don’t think, I don’t think I 
sold myself too well in Bratt because of the makeup of the 
Bratt area. I think I did, I think more harm came to me 
from the Bratt area than benefits.

THE COURT: All right, go ahead, Mr. Menefee.

Q. Mr. Jenkins, the Judge raised a question about the 
activity of the Democratic Party. Do you know whether or 
not the Democratic, local Democratic Party leadership in 
1968 had a great deal of participation or what participa­
tion it had by blacks in its leadership at that time?



346

A. In 1968 as I recall there was one black on the 
Democratic Executive Committee out of a total member­
ship of about fourteen.

[729] Q. I see, sir. And you heard the testimony this 
morning, did you not, concerning increased black par­
ticipation in the Democratic — A. No, I was not here 
this morning, sir.

Q. I’m sorry.
THE COURT: I hope he wasn’t. He’s not a party plain­

tiff.
MR. MENEFEE: Yes, he is. This is Mr. Elmer Jenkins.

THE COURT: All right, go ahead.

A. I wasn’t here this morning.
Q. Mr. Jenkins, would you please tell us what sources 

of funds you had available to conduct these various elec­
tions in the black community first. A. In 1968 I was 
able to raise approximately thirteen hundred dollars.

Q. Okay, sir, did that change? What about ’74 and 
’76? A. In 1974 I raised, I was able to raise approx­
imately two thousand dollars.

Q. I see, sir. A. And about sixteen hundred in 
1976.

Q. Okay, sir. Now, was this raised in the black com­
munity or the white community? Could you please tell 
us? [730] A. Basically in the black communities.

Q. Okay, sir. Who did you, what types of individuals 
or organizations would you approach in the black com­
munities? A. Churches, fraternities, social clubs.



347

Q. And in the white community? A. I talked to 
any individuals that I knew, and some organizations.

Q. I see, sir. Did you contact any coworkers at Pen­
sacola Junior College? A. Yes, I contacted some 
coworkers at Pensacola Junior College and some of them 
contributed to my campaign.

Q. Okay, sir. have you ever received the endorsement 
of the Escambia Educational Association? A. Well, in 
1974 they had an organization which endorsed certain can­
didates and they interviewed those in my areas and they 
narrowed it down to two and that was Mr. Bailey and 
myself.

Q. Who did they endorse? A. They endorsed Mr. 
Bailey.

Q. Okay, sir. Would you seek election again under the 
present at-large system? A. Yes, in 1976.

Q. I’m sorry, would you seek? [731] A. Would I 
now?

Q. Would you seek election again under the present 
at-large system? A. No, I would not.

Q. Are you familiar with Mr. Hollice Williams and 
Dr. Donald Spence? A. Yes, I am.

Q. They have both at times won election to the Pen­
sacola City Council. How would you account for that? 
A. Well, in the case of Mr. Hollice Williams prior to that 
time no black had served on any elected body in this coun­
ty and I think that the people in the area wanted to at least 
have token representation and they approached Mr. 
Williams and I think a lot of them knew him because of his 
job at the YMCA and they, I don’t think they thought that 
Mr. Williams would be a threat because of that job that he 
had there.



348

Q. I see, sir. And for Dr. Spence? A. Now, Dr. 
Spence came later and I think at that time the county 
perhaps had grown ashamed of just having one and they 
appointed Dr. Spence to the city council.

*  *  *  sje *  *

TESTIMONY OF NATHANIEL DEDMOND

[747] NATHANIEL DEDMOND, called as a witness 
by the plaintiffs, being first duly sworn, testified as 
follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. MENEFEE:
Q. Good evening, Mr. Dedmond. Your Honor, this is 

Mr. Nathaniel Dedmond, who lives at 1531 East Cross. 
He’s an attorney, part-time state attorney. He’s been in 
private practice for eighteen years and he’s lived in Pen­
sacola for eighteen years. He attended law school at North 
Carolina Central University in Durham, North Carolina, 
and attended undergraduate school there also. He has 
sought election to the county commission in 1968 and ran 
again for county judge in 1970. Is that a correct statement, 
Mr. Dedmond? A. I would think that was exactly cor­
rect.

Q. Mr. Dedmond, have you been active in any civic 
clubs or religious organizations? A. I’m active in a lot 
of clubs but I think that my involvement with those clubs 
would not significantly affect my testimony one way or the 
other.

Q. Okay, sir. [748] A. I’m a member of the 
American —

Q. I’m trying to show, I’m asking if you are involved 
in numerous community organizations that would give 
you perspective. A. The answer would be yes.



349

Q. C ould you give us a few exam ples, 
please? A. Well, my fraternity. I’m not as active as I 
should be. My church, the bar association, of course, 
which are not integrated, because we have no black 
lawyers actively practicing, but the normal clubs.

Q. Okay, sir, are there any other practicing black at­
torneys in Pensacola at this time? A. Not at the present 
time.

Q. Okay, sir.
THE COURT: Aren’t you a member of the Bar Associa­

tion of this circuit? A. I certainly am, Your Honor.
THE COURT: That’s what I thought. I thought you 

said you weren’t.
A. No, sir, I said I was, the American Bar, Florida 

Bar, Society of the Bar.
THE COURT: I thought I’ve seen you at the meetings. I 

don’t think we’re either there as much as we should be, but 
I’ve seen you there occasionally when I [749] was there.

A. That is a correct statement, Judge.

THE COURT: Go ahead.
Q. Mr. Dedmond, why did you decide to run for 

county commission in 1968?
A. Well, I suppose —
MR. FLEMING: Pardon me, Your Honor, just for 

clarification, not to keep the record confused any longer, I 
believe it was 1970 Mr. Dedmond was a candidate for 
county commissioner.

THE COURT: He said 1968. When were you a can­
didate for county commission?



350

A. I talked to one of the lawyers today and I told him I 
thought it was 1970 but I would have to defer to his 
recollection of the events of the year because I do not have 
my notes before me.

THE COURT: Well, let’s find out when he ran.

A. I think it was 1970.

MR. FLEMING: I have his returns. It was 1970.

THE COURT: He ran for county judge in 1970?
MR. FLEMING: Well, I don’t know anything about 

when he ran for county judge.
THE COURT: He said he ran for county judge in 1970 

and commissioner in 1968.
MR. MENEFEE: It was 1970, Your Honor, and I 

[750] apologize.
THE COURT: He ran for county commission in 1970?

A. That is correct, and two days, two years later I ran 
for county judge.

THE COURT: Nineteen seventy-two?

A. That would be 1972.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Q. Thank you, Mr. Dedmond. Now, in 1970 then why 

did you decide to run for county commissioner, please, 
sir? A. Well, as I had started to say, I think the basis 
for my running is akin to anyone that jumps in the 
political arena and that is that you feel you can do a job 
better than the person that holds the present position.

Q. I see. A. I wanted to become a part of the 
policy-making or governmental body.



351

Q. Okay, sir. How did you, at the time of your can­
didacy how did you assess your chance of winning the elec­
tion? A. Oh, I didn’t take a defeatist attitude. I was op­
timistic about it but in reality I knew what my chances 
were and I was prepared to accept the consequences 
[751] of my candidacy.

Q. What’s that reality? A. That reality was the fact 
that blacks are outnumbered by whites in this county and 
that from history, just looking at the past, I knew that a 
black had a very, very small chance of winning an election. 
And it was possible to do so only if you had a significant 
number of crossover white votes.

Q. Okay, sir. Is that assessment still true 
today? A. Exactly.

Q. Would you consider running in the present election 
system today with that reality? A. I don’t know at my 
age with what has transpired I would consider running for 
anything, but to be entirely candid with you, no, I would 
not run. Number one would be that I do not think my 
chances of winning are great. I think they are nil with the 
present, within the present political setup. And number 
two would be a matter of personal choice. But significant­
ly, I think primarily is because I don’t have eight to ten 
thousand dollars to throw away as I had in ’70 in my 
pocket.

Q. You say throw away. Is that the reality of 
that? [752] A. Well, let me be as candid as I can with 
you. In 1970 I spent approximately eight to ten thousand 
dollars out of my pocket. I would estimate that I lost ap­
proximately twice that amount of money from the practice 
of law because I was away, campaigning. Knowing what 
the realities of political life for a black is in Escambia 
County, Florida, I think you could in reality say that if I



352

were to run today that my eight to ten thousand dollars 
would be thrown away or lost.

Q. I see. A. I would not win.
Q. I see, sir. Thank you. During the course of your 

campaign what efforts did you make to raise funds in the 
black community, and would you contrast that with the 
effort you made in the white community, please, sir. A. 
First of all I realized at that time that I was not going to 
receive any significant amount of monetary consideration 
from the white community. From the black community I 
did not again expect any significant monetary contribution 
but that, the reason for my belief and my opinions are bas­
ed on two different premises. Number one, from the white 
community I did not expect them to support me monetari­
ly speaking because I knew that being a black, their 
money, their political dollar was going to go to the can­
didate who enjoyed the white [753] preference. Okay. I 
did not think that I would enjoy that preference. Number 
two, I do not think that I would nor did I receive from the 
black community any significant money for campaign 
purposes, not because of their nonpreference for me but 
because of, number one, their resources. Blacks do not 
have the economic power that whites have. It’s a reality of 
life. And number two, those who did have the economic 
resources to support me in a manner consistent with their 
means were not willing to do so because of the track 
record for blacks.

MR. LOTT: Objection, Your Honor. The reason they 
didn’t support him are his opinions entirely and under the 
rule the only opinion evidence he can give is firsthand in­
formation based on facts perceived by him, which neither 
one of these are related to.

MR. MENEFEE: Your Honor, he obviously had to go



353

in the community and solicit funds from numerous in­
dividuals or organizations and in that reaction —

THE COURT: I’m going to let him answer the question, 
Mr. Lott, without going too far with it.

A. All right, I’ll be more precise then. Blacks who 
were able, who had the resources to support Nathaniel 
Dedmond would not do so for the simple reason that they 
thought that I had no chance of winning and it was a ques­
tion of whether they should throw good money after 
[754] bad money, if you understand what I mean.

Q. Thank you. Mr. Dedmond, during the course of 
the campaign did you ever receive any threats or intimida­
tion of some phone calls of a racial nature?

A. Well, I can’t say that I received over two phone 
calls. As far as stares, as far as attitudes and as far as at­
mospheres are concerned at political rallies, that’s another 
thing. But I’ve been around for eighteen years and I’m not 
too easily intimidated.

Q. Okay, sir.
A. Now, number two —
MR. CATON: Your Honor, he’s going beyond the 

scope of the question.

THE COURT: Mr. Caton, what did you say, sir?
MR. CATON: Your Honor, the question was whether 

he received any phone calls and I think he’d already 
answered that question.

MR. MENEFEE: My question is broader. I think I said 
threats and intimidation and harassment.

THE COURT: I think so.



354

A. Now, as far as my political signs are concerned, 
after you passed Olive or somewhere in the vicinity of the 
Nine Mile or Ten Mile Road then my signs somehow 
became the subject of somebody’s intense attention 
because they were torn down as fast as I put them up.

[755] Q. Are you telling me that that is a racially 
more hostile area of your county? A. In my opinion, 
and that is strictly an opinion. But I would also say, If I 
may —

Q. Yes, sir. A. That in my opinion again while the 
Nine Mile Road or north of the Nine Mile Road is con­
sidered to be the more conservative area of Escambia 
County Florida, the area to the west of Pensacola, 
Florida, is also a conservative area as far as any expecta­
tion on the part of the blacks to get a significant number 
of crossover white votes. I think Mr. Oldmixon’s records 
will bear that out.

Q. Okay, sir. Are you familiar with Hollice Williams 
and Donald Spence? A. I know both of them very well. 
As a matter of fact I saw Dr. Spence Saturday.

Q. Okay, sir. They had both been successful for elec­
tion to the city council. A. I can’t quite hear you. Will 
you speak up just a bit.

Q. Yes. They had both won election to the Pensacola 
City Council. A. That is correct.

Q. Both were originally appointed? [756] A. Of course.
Q. Do you think their appointment was a significant 

factor in their chance for gaining reelection? A. It was 
the factor and the moving mode or motivation.

Q. Okay, sir. A. If I might expand on his question,



355

I don’t know whether His Honor will permit me, but you 
have to understand why that appointment or the appoint­
ment of these people, these two individuals, first to an 
elected position, is, was and will be a significant, well, 
would be a motivating factor in those individuals or any 
other blacks or black preference for candidates.

THE COURT: Mr. Dedmond, I’ve heard others talk 
about the appointive thing and say it’s a difference to 
them and yet a man like you turns around and says, “I will 
not run because I have no chance of being elected because 
of my race.” Being appointed doesn’t change their race. 
Do you mean the fact once they’re in office the people who 
wouldn’t vote for them when they’re first running for of­
fice, white people, will nonetheless change their minds and 
vote for them notwithstanding their race?

A. That is correct, Your Honor, but may I explain my 
answer. The question is once you have been appointed by, 
and I hate to use the word, [757] the establishment —

THE COURT: Well, appointed by due process of law. 
We can try that one, couldn’t we, Mr. Dedmond, because 
that’s the way the appointment comes through. Go ahead.

A. I agree with you. I agree with you.

THE COURT: All right, go ahead.
A. But when they’re appointed by due process of law, 

as you say, Your Honor, involved in that is an endorse­
ment on the part of those in power and once you have been 
appointed by the Governor or anyone, it doesn’t make any 
difference, the city council, they represent the power struc- 
ture and I believe that is a letter to the other people or a 
significant number of white voters to vote for that in­
dividual.

THE COURT: When you say power structure, what do



356

you mean? You mean there’s a small group of white peo­
ple in this county who are so powerful that they can 
dominate and dictate elections?

A. I don’t believe that, Your Honor, but I think they 
have a significant —

THE COURT: What do you mean by power structure?
A. Okay, when I say power structure, I mean those 

persons who have the finances to support candidates, the 
power, the contacts to go out and get people if they [758] 
don’t support them financially, to get out and work for 
those people, to pass the word around, Judge. That’s what 
I mean by the power structure. I don’t mean ten people.

THE COURT: In other words they can persuade people 
who are white to vote for black candidates? It can be 
done?

A. It can be done, Your Honor. I would suggest to the 
Court that E. W. Hopkins, president of Mutual Federal 
Association, can send out a letter to his stockholders or to 
his depositors and say, “We endorse this man or I think 
this is a good man,” you see, and I give much respect to the 
man.

THE COURT: You don’t know he has ever sent out 
such a letter?

A. I don’t know that, Judge.

THE COURT: I sort of question whether he has. I 
don’t know, and I’m not saying that he does not act and in­
terest himself in races.

A. This is correct, Judge, and I say if he sends out a 
letter, I give it to the man, he’s going to send it out, E.W. 
Hopkins, Jr., not Mutual Federal, but everyone knows in 
Escambia County, Florida, he’s president of one of the 
most stable financial institutions in this part of the county.



357

Okay, in the county, period. [759] And when he sends 
out a letter and says, “I want, I support this man, I sup­
port this man,” then I would say, Judge, that I could send 
out ten thousand letters and he could send out one and I 
would not be able to persuade as many persons to vote for 
a candidate as Mr. E.W. Hopkins would.

THE COURT: All right, sir, go ahead.

DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED 
BY MR. MENEFEE:

Q. Mr. Dedmond, earlier this afternoon there was 
testimony from Mr. Barney Burks, who’s presently presi­
dent of the Chamber of Commerce and former mayor, 
that he has been active and he testified he was active in 
politics and supported Hollice Williams. I realize you were 
using Mr. Hopkins as an example. Would you say Mr. 
Burks is an individual of similar qualities?

A. Same stature, the same, right. So I could have used 
his name and should have, perhaps.

MR. MENEFEE: I have no further questions, Your 
Honor. Thank you, Mr. Dedmond. * * * * *

TESTIMONY OF JAMES L. BREWER

[800] JAMES L. BREWER, called as a witness by the 
plaintiffs, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION 
BY MR. MENEFEE:

Q. This is Mr. James L. Brewer. He lives at 721 West 
Lloyd in Pensacola. He is presently a life insurance under­
writer with Mutual Savings Life Insurance Company. He 
graduated from Washington High School and attended 
Washington Junior College. He’s thirty-seven years old,



358

married, has one child. In 1975 he was a candidate for city 
council. He’s a black citizen. Is that [801] a correct 
statement, Mr. Brewer? A. that is correct.

Q. Mr. Brewer, why did you decide to run for the city 
council election, office, in 1975? A. First of all because 
I reside in the city and there were several changes that I felt 
should and needed to be brought forth and I felt that I 
could be instrumental in helping to bring this change 
about.

Q. Okay, sir. Who was your opponent in the race in 
1975? A. Dr. Paul Bruno.

Q. Okay, sir, and what was the outcome of the elec­
tion? A. Well, he was the victor and I was the loser.

Q. Okay, sir, do you have any recollection of the 
number of votes approximately? A. Eighteen hundred.

Q. D iffe rence?  T h a t’s the d iffe ren ce  in 
votes? A. No, that was my vote, eighteen something, 
somewhere in the neighborhood of nineteen hundred 
votes, and something with the write-ins, I don’t recall 
exactly.

Q. Okay, sir. Mr. Brewer, when you decided to run 
for office, what chance of winning did you think you had?
[802] A. Well, I didn’t put a figure to it but I felt that I 
would give it the best try that I could and this is what I did. 
I didn’t really think that I could win but I wanted to try 
and this is what I did.

Q. Mr. Brewer, when you were trying to raise funds 
for your campaign, what sort of success did you have in 
the black community, first off? A. They gave what 
they had, which was very little.

Q. What sort of success did you have in the white 
community? A. None, no contributions.



359

Q. Did you try to raise funds in the white community? 
A. I did solicit some.

THE COURT: You say you solicited from who?
A. From the white community.

THE COURT: You solicited some white people?
A. Yes, I did.
THE COURT: People you knew?

A. Some of them were.

THE COURT: Others you didn’t know?
A. Right.

THE COURT: Did you say you had any contributions 
from them?

[803] A. I did not receive any.

THE COURT: All right, sir.

Q. Did you encounter difficulties in soliciting funds in 
the black community? A. Yes, I did. Those who 
would, I did receive some. Do you need a figure amount?

Q. No, I’m interested in the kind of difficulties that 
you might have encountered in soliciting funds in the 
black community. A. In soliciting funds we, myself 
and some of the people who worked in the campaign, we 
had quite a lot, a lot of difficulty in getting funds. We 
tried with very little success.

Q. Do you think your race was a major factor in your 
defeat in this election? A. I would have to say yes, it 
was.

Q. Mr. Brewer, have you also had experience in radio 
broadcasting? A. I worked in the radio industry as a 
radio announcer here locally for about eight years.



360

Q. I see. Did you have your own program? 
A. Right. I did.

Q. Do you consider yourself well known in the com­
munity? A. Yes. I worked in public most of my life 
here.

[804] Q. After your experience in 1975 would you 
run again for the city council? A. Not under present 
conditions, no.

Q. Okay, sir, you are aware that both Mr. Hollice 
Williams and Dr. Donald Spence have been successful in 
elections to the city council, are you not. Are you aware 
that they have won election to the city council? A. Do I 
have an opportunity to answer that the way I must answer 
it?

THE COURT: He asked you if you were aware of the 
fact that Hollice Williams and Dr. Spence had won elec­
tion to the city council. You can answer that question yes 
or no. Are you aware of the fact? A. I’m aware of it.

Q. Okay, sir.
THE COURT: Now let him ask you the next one.
Q. How do you account for their success? A. First, 

they were appointed first and then afterwards they were 
elected. They were appointed first.

Q. Okay, sir. Did you campaign in the white com­
munity? Did you solicit votes from white voters? A. I 
certainly did.

MR. MENEFEE: I have no further questions, Your 
Honor.

*  *  *  *



361

TESTIMONY OF CLEVELAND McWILLIAMS

[847] Q. May it please the court. This is Mr. Cleveland 
McWilliams. He lives at 3317 North Alcaniz. He is 
presently employed by the Escambia County School 
Board. Presently he’s classroom teacher at Pine Forest 
High School. He’s forty-five years old, graduated from 
Washington High School in Pensacola, from Florida A & 
M and from the University of West Florida, and he holds a 
Master’s degree. He has previously been a visitng teacher 
with the Escambia County School Board, and I believe 
you told me dean, is that correct? A. Yes.

*  *  *  *  *

[864] DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED 

BY MR. MENEFEE:

Q. Mr. McWilliams, have you considered seeking 
public office? A. Yes, I have.

Q. Would you offer yourself as a candidate — let me 
back up. What public office might you be interested in 
running for? A. County commissioner.

Q. Okay, sir. Would you run under the present at- 
large election system? A. No, I would not.

[865] Q. Would you consider running under a single­
member district plan? A. Yes, I would.

Q- Why the difference? A. Well, to run now at- 
large to me, frankly, would be a waste of time and effort 
and money too because unless the white have a change of 
heart the blacks could not win at an at-large election. If 
you take the total black —

Q- You say the whites could not win in an at-large



362

election? A. No, the blacks. A black candidate could 
not win an at-large election.

Q. Do you presently serve as a committeeman? 
A. Yes.

Q. From your precinct, is that correct? A. Yes.

Q. What precinct is that? A. Ninety-one. It’s 
changed to ninety now.

Q. Is that a heavily black registration precinct? 
A. Yes, it is.

MR. MENEFEE: Okay, sir, thank you very much. I 
have no further questions.

$  sfc J|e sje sjs



363

TESTIMONY OF EARL J. CROSSWR1GHT

[886] Q. No, that’s all right. All right, this is Mr. 
Earl J. Crosswright. His address is 1202 East Yonge 
Street, I guess. A. Yes.

Q. Pensacola, and that’s inside or outside the 
city? A. Inside the city limits.

Q. He’s fifty-eight years old. He’s presently the prin­
cipal at A.M. DeVaughn School in the public school 
system. Did I get that right? A. Yes.

Q. He’s been principal there twelve years. He’s been 
employed by the Escambia County School Board thirty- 
one years. He was born in Evansville, Indiana, but came 
to Pensacola in 1947 as a teacher at Washington High 
School. He has a bachelor’s in education from Lincoln 
University in Jefferson City, Missouri; a master’s of 
education from Wayne University in Detroit. Now, Mr. 
Crosswright, is that correct? A. Yes.

Q. Have you ever offered as a candidate for election in 
local government in Escambia County or Pensacola? 
[887] A. None other than precinct committeeman.

Q. All right, sir, you have been a precinct commit­
teeman in the Democratic Party organization? A. I am 
currently.

Q. You are currently? A. Precinct fifty.
Q. How long have you been a committeeman for 

precinct fifty? A. Four years.

Q. Okay, and could you tell the Court how you 
became a committeeman, how you got involved in 
that? A. Well, I’ve been interested in politics 
throughout my entire tenure here in Escambia County. We



364

needed someone to sort of go through the precinct and 
muster votes and get people to register and this kind of 
thing and we didn’t have anybody who was actively involv­
ed so I attempted the chore of doing this.

Q. All right, sir, is that an elective office? A. Yes, 
it is.

Q. All right, who votes for you? A. Just the people 
in precinct fifty.

Q. Okay, is that precinct predominantly black? 
A. No.

Q. What’s the percentage in that precinct? [888] 
A. It has changed since the voting but it’s approximately 
thirty-seventy white.

Q. Thirty-seventy white?
THE COURT: Seventy percent white?

A. Yes.
Q. Were you opposed in that election?

A. No.
Q. All right, sir, did you ask anybody before you of­

fered as a candidate or did anyone ask you if you would 
run as a candidate for that committeeman position? A. I 
don’t recall anybody having asked me to do this.

Q. Who was the committeeman there before you, or 
did you have one? A. Yes, we had one. His wife is the 
female committeewoman at this time but I’ve never seen 
her nor him and I can’t think of who he is at present.

Q. Mr. Crosswright, have you ever considered run­
ning for an elected office as school board member or 
county commissioner or city councilman? A. The idea 
has been in my mind at certain times, yes.



365

Q. Any of those in particular that you’ve thought 
about? A. Yes, city council and county commissioner.

[889] Q. Okay, sir, why have you decided not to of­
fer as a candidate for those offices? A. Weil, I have 
seen that heretofore no one of color has been able to make 
it so I thought it was a matter of throwing away money 
and this is why I didn’t attempt it. I didn’t have the money 
to throw away. This is one of the problems.

Q. Does the fact that the elections for all these bodies 
are conducted at-large in the county or in the city, as the 
case may be, affect your judgment and your decision? 
A. Most definitely.

Q. And would you be more inclined to offer as a can­
didate if there were single-member district elections? 
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Mr. Crosswright, did you testify at hearings con­
ducted by the Escambia County Commission on the ques­
tion of charter government for Escambia County? 
A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was that? A. During, I don’t know the 
time.

Q. What year was it? A. This past year.
Q. All right. [890] A. When they were going from, I 

testified at the Junior College at one time and on 
Jordan and Palafox, the clinic, Health Department there.

Q. What was the announced purpose of these hear­
ings? A. To get the citizenry to give their opinion 
about the charter government program that was to be 
placed before the electorate.

THE COURT: This was before the committee, was it, 
Mr. Crosswright? That’s where you appeared, before Mr.



366

Tennant’s committee? A. I wasn’t appearing. It was a 
matter of being in the audience. I was there during the
time.

Q. What he means, was it the county commission 
holding the hearing or some committee appointed by the 
county commission? A. I’ve been involved in both. 
The very first time I was involved when the committee, the 
ad hoc committee was given an opportunity to make up 
the program itself, and I was involved there. When they 
came out with the program stating there would be five 
people voted in the precincts and two at-large, I think not 
precincts but in the district, two at-large.

Q. I wasn’t aware of that. Tell me about that. When 
was that occasion you met with — I take it this was —

[891] THE COURT: That must have been the commit­
tee, of course. A. Yes, this was the committee.

THE COURT: All right, sir.
A. That the county commissioners gave the respon­

sibility of putting together the charter government 
package, and of course I was at one of those meetings and 
this was open to the public also. And of course at that time 
they did have, they presented this to, as I understand it 
now, to the county commissioners. But at the other 
meeting at Palafox and Jordan this was removed from the 
package and it was changed to the at-large type program 
and I spoke at that particular meeting.

Q. What did you say at that meeting, the meeting of 
the commissioners now? A. I talked to the group. I 
was concerned about who represented me in precinct fifty 
since I had been a precinct committeeman for three years 
and had never met the, my district personnel.

Q. You mean your district, the commissioner who 
resided in that district? A. Yes, He had had an election



367

and he had not been in our district that I knew of, in my 
precinct, to find out who was voting for him or even to 
muster votes. 1 needed to know who the individual was 
because I was [892] having problems with baseballs being 
knocked into my yard and breaking my windows 
and I wanted some relief from this point of view so I went 
to this meeting to find out primarily who my county com­
missioner was and I asked who was the commissioner. I 
had already asked in the precinct and I couldn’t find peo­
ple in the precinct to know and it was amazing to find out 
that very few people even knew who their precinct com­
mitteeman was. I also went to City Hall —

Q. Knew who the precinct committeeman was or 
county commissioner? A. Not precinct committeeman; 
county commissioner. They didn’t know who he was 
either.

THE COURT: This is not exactly what you asked him 
about. You wanted to know about the hearing, didn’t you. 
You went there to find out who was the commissioner resi­
dent in your district, is that it?

A. That’s right. That was my purpose in going in the 
first place.

THE COURT: You do know that the county commis­
sioners represent all the people, not just the people in the 
residents district? You understand that, don’t you?

A. I do. Yes, I did at that particular time.
THE COURT: Why didn’t you go to the county [893] 

administrator or something instead of trying to find out 
about the county commissioner, just go to him? He’s just 
resident in your district. All the people in the county 
elected him like all the rest of them.



368

A. I thought all were responsible for everybody in the 
committee, in the district, also, to do the things for the 
people that voted for them.

THE COURT: Anyhow that was the reason you were 
looking for him. Go ahead, Mr. Blacksher. Go ahead. 
That was the reason you were looking for him anyhow. Go 
ahead, Mr. Blacksher.

Q. Were you raising this point, this question, at the 
hearing, to make any point with respect to the apportion­
ment proposal, the district proposal part of the charter 
government? A. Yes. This I was against at that par­
ticular time because it did not offer to me any relief 
because the commissioner at-large did not think enough of 
the people in his precinct, in his district, to see if they real­
ly needed any relief of any nature.

Q. So you spoke at the hearing in favor of the single­
member districts? A. Yes.

THE COURT: And your reason for doing it was what 
now, sir?

[894] A. Well, I feel that any time that we have at- 
large type voting we do not have the contact, personal con­
tact with the people who are supposed to represent us.

THE COURT: But you’re saying your reason for want­
ing a single-member district was that you felt if you were 
in a district where your people alone represented him he 
would be more responsive to you than he would be at- 
large, is that it?

A. Yes. we would definitely know him at any rate even 
if he didn’t respond to our wishes. At this time we didn’t 
know him.

MR. BLACKSHER: That’s all 1 have, Your Honor.



369

MR. FLEMING: May we have just a moment, Your 
Honor. The transcript of this particular proceeding is in 
the court file.

THE COURT: Do you want to cross examine him on 
that?

MR. FLEMING: It may be pertinent. Perhaps Mr. Lott 
can begin.

THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Lott.

MR. BLACKSHER: Your Honor, for the record, there 
was a transcript of this particular testimony that was filed, 
I guess, by Mr. Lott.

MR. LOTT: Right.
[895] MR. BLACKSHER: Pursuant to Your Honor’s 

order that the parties make known any contacts with class 
members, so it’s already in the file on that basis.

THE COURT: All right, sir. I don’t know what he’s 
looking for. Anyhow I want to cross examine this 
witness. Proceed, Mr. Lott.

MR. LOTT: I’ll go ahead and start if Mr. Fleming can 
find it in the meantime.

CROSS EXAMINATION 

BY MR. LOTT:
Q. Mr. Crosswright, you had a conversation on the 

telephone with Mr. Caton a while ago, is that not correct, 
Mr. Don Caton, the city attorney? A. I’m pretty sure 
it’s Mr. Donald Carr.

Q. Mr. Carr? A. Yes, some person called me by 
the name of Donald Carr.

Q. You talked about your feelings on charter govern­



370

ment at that time, is that correct? A. I didn’t talk about 
it. I told him, I didn’t give him any statement whatsoever.

Q. Okay, I think that’s a good enough predicate, 
Judge, for what I’m leading up to. The conversation you 
had with him, did you express the opinion that the [896] 
question of whether or not blacks would have more 
strength under single-member districts as opposed to at- 
large districts is a very difficult question to answer? Is that 
what you told Mr. Carr? A. Yes, 1 did, because it 
would be a very difficult question to answer.

Q. Okay, so can we determine from that it would be 
your opinion that you’re not sure whether it would be 
more advantageous for blacks to have at-large represen­
tatives or single-member representatives? Is that basically 
it?

A. No, no, I was stating that it would not matter 
whether he was, I’m concerned with the entire population, 
whether it be black or white. I think it would be better. 
When he said black, that ruled out any statement that I 
might make because I definitely feel it would be better for 
whites even to be represented by —

THE COURT: Mr. Lott, I believe his position is that he 
thinks, in other words your position on single-member 
districts is not concerned really with whether it would aid 
or help black people getting elected; your position on it is 
that regardless of who’s elected he would be more respon­
sive to the people in that district because they elected.him 
and that’s the reason [897] why you feel like single­
member districts are advisable?

A. That’s it, Judge, exactly. It would be good for 
white, Jews, Gentiles.

THE COURT: He made his position pretty clear to me, 
Mr. Lott.



371

Q. Okay, do you have an opinion as to whether blacks 
would have more benefit under a single-member district 
system as opposed to an at-large district system?

A. I think all people would.
Q. You think all people would?

A. Yes.
THE COURT: He’s said that twice for you now, sir. Go 

ahead.
MR. LOTT: Well, to me, Judge, that seems inconsistent 

with the statement that it would be a very difficult ques­
tion to answer whether blacks would have more strength in 
a single-member district. How do you reconcile that?

A. Well, you were indicating, Mr. Carr was indicating 
that only blacks, I inferred that he meant only blacks 
would be benefited by that and I couldn’t make that state­
ment because that isn’t the way I think.

THE COURT: Mr. Lott, I’m at a loss why you’re going 
on with this gentleman with this testimony. You go [898] 
and I don’t know why you pursue it.

Q. Did you also state in the course of that conversa­
tion with Mr. Carr that you did not believe the county or 
the school board wanted to keep at-large elections because 
of racial reasons but instead that you felt that the only 
reason that they wanted to continue at-large elections was 
because they wanted to preserve the fact that they were 
presently in office? Did you express that opinion?

A. I didn’t express it in the manner in which you are 
giving it. I did say, I did say that politics is a situation 
where those that are in would naturally want to do 
whatever would keep them in office.



372

Q. Is it your opinion that the reason the at-large 
system for school board and county elections are presently 
in effect is not because of racial reasons —

MR. BLACKSHER: Objection, Your Honor, that’s get­
ting a lot of mileage out of the testimony that came in 
from this witness’s mouth earlier.

THE COURT: It is getting a lot of mileage.

MR. LOTT: Your Honor, the testimony was that he ap­
peared at a charter government committee meeting and he 
spoke in favor of single-member districts and wanted to 
change from an at-large system to a single-member 
district.

[899] THE COURT: You went far afield on that one, 
sir. I’m going to sustain objection to that. That went too 
far out in opinion evidence and everything else. Objection 
sustained.

Q. At the Board of County Commissioners’ public 
hearing on charter government did you express the opi­
nion that all of the people should elect the people that 
they, that represents them? Is that what you testified, you 
stated at the public hearing?

THE COURT: Mr. Lott, if you’ve got something 
specifically he said there, because he has testified twice 
now, three times; he’s said three or four times he thinks 
they ought to come from single-member districts.

MR. LOTT: Yes, sir, and at the public hearing I have a 
transcript filed in the court record that says all the people 
that are elected should represent all the people. Now, is 
that your statement?

A. 1 don’t recall, but if it was, it was in it, the intent of 
it was not, I couldn’t feel that way because 1 most certainly 
feel that the people in North Florida should not be elected



373

by the whole State of Florida. And that was an erroneous 
statement if I made it.

Q. Well, in the context of county commissioners?

A. Beg pardon?

[900] Q. In the context of county commissioners in 
Escambia County does that statement hold true that you 
made?

A. No.
Q. You did make that statement, did you not?
MR. BLACKSHER: Your Honor, the witness answered 

“No,” and I think counsel is arguing with the witness.

MR. LOTT: I’m not arguing. I’m asking if he made the 
statement.

THE COURT: He says he does not know but if he did 
make it, it is not what he meant to say or what he has said 
today. It’s pretty clear, Mr. Lott.

MR. LOTT: I don’t have any further questions, Your 
Honor.

THE COURT: Any other cross examination? Any 
redirect with this witness?

MR. BLACKSHER: No, Your Honor.

* * * * * * *



374

[3] TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM H. MARSHALL

called as a witness by the plaintiff, being first duly sworn, 
testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. STILL:

Q. May it please the court this is William H. Marshall, 
who is fifty-two years of age, was born here in Escambia 
County, has been with the Escambia school system for 
nineteen years and is now the principal of Spencer Bibbs 
Elementary School. Is that correct, Mr. Marshall? A. 
That’s correct.

Q. All right. Mr. Marshall, have you ever run for the 
City Council? A. Yes, I’ve run for the City Council on 
two occassions.

Q. Which two years did you run? A. I think it was 
1969 and ‘71.

Q. All right, sir. What ward to you live in? A. Ward 2.

Q. All right, sir. Have you ever run for any other office 
in Escambia County? A. I’ve run for the State 
Legislature.

Q. Have you also been involved in other people’s cam­
paigns? A. Yes.

[4] Q. All right, sir, whose campaigns particularly? A. 
Well, I am an active member of the Democratic Party 
Local Committee and also State Committee so since 1968 
I’ve been actively involved.

Q. In 1969 when you first ran for the City Council, yes, 
the City Council, what was the motivation for you to



375

run? A. Well, at that time no blacks had been previously 
elected for office and I felt that it was a good time for me 
to make a try. I had a pretty good reputation within the 
community and I was very well known.

Q. All right, sir, what chance did you think you had of 
winning when you decided to run? A. Well, I didn’t feel 
like that I had much of a chance but I was hoping.

Q. All right, sir, why did you decide to run for the City 
Council, for instance, rather than a county-wide 
office? A. At time because the bulk of the black voters 
lived within the city limits.

Q. If the City Council remains an at-large position 
would you seriously consider running for that position 
again? A. I would have to think about it until the climate 
changes; I think it would be an act of futility.

Q. All right, sir, what about running for a County [5] 
Commission office? A. The same thing would hold here 
with the present system.

Q. All right, if it remained at-large? A. Right.

Q. When you ran in 1969, what was the approximate 
cost of your campaign? A. Well, in all I think approx­
imately it was close to five thousand dollars.

Q. How many thousand? A. five.

Q. Five thousand dollars, and in 1971 about how much 
did you spend? A. About the same.

Q. Do you remember how much you spent on your 
legislative race? A. It was, I can’t give the exact figures 
but it was more than that amount.

Q. More than five thousand dollars? A. Right.



376

Q. Did you find it was difficult to raise this kind of 
money? A. Very difficult.

Q. At the time that you ran for the City Council in 1969 
and 1971 was there a qualifying fee to run? [6] A. In ‘69, 
no.

Q. What about ’71? A. In ’71 I don’t, I’m not certain 
but I don’t think that fifty dollar fee was in effect at that 
time.

Q. If it was not in effect in 1971 do you know when it 
was put on? A. It was sometime after that. I think it was 
about four or five blacks in the race in ‘71 and after that 
they got the fifty dollar fee.

THE COURT: That’s a primary party fee?

A. No, this is the city election.

THE COURT: This was in the city election?

A. Yes.

THE COURT: I thought you were talking about a fee in 
the representative’s race.

MR. STILL: No, sir, we’re talking about the non­
partisan city race.

THE COURT: All right, sir. Go ahead.

Q. Were you the only black who was running for the 
City Council in 1969? A. If I remember correctly, yes.

Q. Were you the first black who had run since 1955 for 
the City Council to your knowledge? A. To my 
knowledge, yes.

Q. Were you the first black who had run since 1955 for 
the City Council to your knowledge? A. To my 
knowlege, yes.



377

Q. All right, sir. Did you receive any support [7] from 
the white community in 1969? A. At the time there were 
few whites who were active in civil rights work. 1 got some 
support from them and if I remember correctly I got a lit­
tle help from the Young Democrats.

Q. Did any white publicly endorse you? A. No.

Q. In 1971 did any white publicly endorse you? A. No.

Did you get the same type of help behind the scenes in 
1971? A. Yes.

Q. Both Hollice Williams and Dr. Spence have been 
elected to the City Council but you and other blacks have 
not been successful in being elected to the City Council. 
To what do you attribute this difference?

MR. CATON: Your Honor. I’ll object to that question 
as to what Mr. Marshall attributes it to. The facts speak 
for themselves and I believe it’s immaterial.

THE COURT: You’re asking for an opinion now.

MR. STILL: Yes, sir, I am asking for an opinion but it 
is based upon his observation of those campaigns.

THE COURT: Well, I’m going to let him give his obser­
vation but I guess to that extent I’ll let it come on in. To 
that extent the objection will be overruled. Go ahead.

[8] Q. Thank you. A. First I would like to say I think 
I’m the person responsible for Hollice Williams’ initial ap­
pointment to —

THE COURT: He didn’t ask whether you were respon­
sible for his initial appointment. He wants to know why 
were they elected when you weren’t, any facts you can give 
us respecting that.

A. Well, my only thing is that Hollice had worked for



378

the YMCA all of his life, we were in high school together, 
and he was very familiar with the city fathers.

THE COURT: He worked with white people and fairly 
familiar with city fathers?

A. He worked at the YMCA.

THE COURT: YMCA?

A. Right.

THE COURT: Ail right.

Q. By the way, at that time were there two YMCAs in 
town?

MR. CATON: Your Honor, I object to that question as 
being totally irrelevant.

THE COURT: What is the relevance of that, sir?

MR. STILL: Simply to show segregated institutions in 
the city at that time, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I’ll let you ask him. Go ahead. I guess [9] 
it might have some small relevance.

A. To my knowledge there weren’t any blacks YMCAs 
at that time.

Q. Were blacks members of the other YMCA that you 
know of? A. No, I don’t think they had a branch.

Q. Was the Ku Klux Klan active in any way in opposing 
your candidacy in any of the three elections in which you 
have run? A. Only from second hand information. I 
can’t give any first hand information on this because of the 
nature of how they operate.

Q. All right. Have you ever had any contact with the



379

Klan because of any of your activities? A. During the 
Escambia High School crisis I was threatened and 1 had to 
have the Sheriffs Office and City Police Department to 
guard my home along with my ex-wife’s home.

Q. All right, sir. Do you know of any white candidate 
over the last fifteen years who has run who has publicly 
advocated more vigorous enforcement of the Equal 
Employment Opportunity laws and the Fair Housing laws 
in Escambia County or in the City of Pensacola?

MR. LOTT: Objection, Your Honor. Whether or not 
this person here knows of the fact that any particular per­
son [10] espoused that view is of no relevance at all. If they 
want to prove that fact it’s up to them to come in and show 
that case is true but there’s no indication here this 
gentleman has made any kind of research to show the 
negative of a question like that and his determination of 
that is of no relevance at all.

THE COURT: I suggest to you he’s been long active and 
interested in politics in this county, Mr. Lott.

MR. LOTT: Yes, but the fact he doesn’t know anything 
about it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen and therefore it 
can’t be relevant.

THE COURT: I agree with that. There might be some 
slight relevance to it and that’s about all it amounts to. 
You may answer the question.

A. Will you repeat the question, please.

Q. Yes, sir. Do you know of any white candidate who 
has run for office in Escambia County or the City of Pen­
sacola during the last fifteen years who has advocated 
more vigorous enforcement of the Equal Employment Op­
portunity laws or the Fair Housing laws? A. No.



380

Q. Do white candidates sometimes come to rallies in 
black neighborhoods? A. Yes.

Q. Do they make speeches to blacks at those rallies? [11] 
A. Yes.

Q.Do they make promises to blacks at those 
rallies? A. Yes.

Q. At any of those rallies have you ever heard anyone 
promise more vigorous enforcement of the Equal Employ­
ment Opportunity laws? A. No.

Q. All right, sir. Now, in 1969 when you first ran for the 
City Council what were the issues that you espoused and 
talked about in your campaign? A. Basically, if I can 
remember correctly, paving, housing and jobs were 
basically.

Q. What was the issue about paving? A. Well, in most 
of your black community areas where they’re strictly black 
community you’ll find that at that time, as now, very little 
paving was done and very little effort on the part of the 
city to provide the conveniences or services that were being 
provided in other portions of the city.

Q: What was the issue regarding housing? A. At that 
particular time and now Pensacola Housing Authority was 
still not doing, in our opinion, carrying out their respon­
sibility to the citizens who live in these particular areas, 
and also at that particular time there was segregated hous­
ing.

[12] Q. And did you advocate desegregating public 
housing? A. Yes.

Q. What was the issue regarding jobs? A. Jobs, more 
jobs; at that particular time no blacks were in supervisory



381

positions within the city. The only person that we had that 
was in any kind of a managerial position was Mr. Sanders 
at the Municipal Auditorium and other than that they 
were all at lower level of employment.

Q. What as that gentleman’s name? Sanders? A. Yes, 
Walker Sanders.

MR. STILL: I believe that’s all the questions I have of 
Mr. Marshall.

* * * * *

[30J MR. STILL: Your Honor, I believe you had some 
questions of the witness.

THE COURT: The one question, yes. I’ll take just a 
minute. What I was going to ask you, Mr. Marshall, was 
this. You testified back in 1969, the reasons about the 
housing there and it was segregated and that kind of thing. 
Are those conditions, you may have partially answered, at 
least you have certainly to some extent. For example in 
this area today do you have a segregated housing problem 
that results from official action? I realize people tend to 
segregate themselves in housing. You and I know that. I’m 
talking about a segregation problem that results from of­
ficial action. That is what you’re saying you had back 
there.

A. Right.

THE COURT: What about that situation today?

A. To a certain extent, yes, because blacks applying for 
housing under the Pensacola Housing Authority, they’re 
either sent basically to the court here, I’m sorry, Gonzales 
Court now and the court downtown, but —



382

[31] THE COURT: Aren’t some white people sent there 
too?

A. Yes.

THE COURT: So it’s not segregated?

A. Not entirely but it’s easier for them to get on, if 
they’re on the waiting list and there’s available housing 
after a certain number of units have been filled in some of 
these areas such as Gonzalez and also Moreno Court, 
blacks aren’t going to get those. They’ll have to be put on 
the waiting list for Morris Court and possibly Attucks 
Court.

THE COURT: Do white people have to be put on the 
waiting list?

A. Yes, but, see, if they want to, Attucks Court is 100 
percent black. Morris Court is 100 percent black.

THE COURT: Well, how does that prove any official 
segregation, though?

A. Well, it’s not official because it’s the law of the land 
that it can’t be official but it’s enacted in other ways.

THE COURT: Well, I know, but how could it be
enacted, if you’ve got a list and go by the list?

A. The Pensacola Housing Authority I don’t think acts 
according to what, the way they’re supposed to act, and 
it’s been pointed out in the last study.

THE COURT: I’m sure I understand that. You are say­
ing you believe the Authority are intentionally [32] 
discriminating against blacks and doing that today?

A. I believe the people making the decisions are doing it



383

on their own. It’s not an official part of the code but 
they’re still doing it.

THE COURT: You mean making decisions based on 
racial factors?

A. Right.

THE COURT: You have nothing really, no hard 
evidence of that; that is just your personal opinion you’re 
expressing from what you’ve observed?

A. Well, it is my personal opinion.

THE COURT: That’s all I need, Counselor.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. STILL:

Q. Mr. Marshall, let me ask you a few questions that 
were covered in cross examination. How were you elected? 
Are you elected or appointed to the County Democratic 
Committee? A. You are elected from your precinct.

Q. All right, sir. Now, is the precinct that you live in 
predominatly black? A. It’s approximately, I think, 
about, well, it’s more than 50 percent black.

Q. All right, sir. Now, what about the state committee? 
Are you elected or appointed to that? [33] A. We are 
elected in our general meeting by the delegates.

Q. At a meeting of delegates? It’s a convention type 
thing, is that right? A. Right.

Q. Are you elected to represent a particular area? a. 
No.



384

Q. It’s for the whole county? A. Right.

Q. How many are elected from Escambia County? A. 
There are two state committee people that are elected, a 
committeeman and committeewoman.

Q. Now, the party post that you hold, the state party, 
secretary-treasurer, is that elected or is that appointed by 
someone? A. That’s elected. Well, let me explain the 
process. First you get on the ballot in order to be elected to 
the local county committee. All right, from then on it 
becomes an in-house function of the party. The officers 
are elected by the committee members at local level and 
also the officers at state level are elected by state commit­
tee members.

Q. Approximately what percentage of the Escambia 
County Democratic Committee is black? A. I’d say 
roughly 40 percent.

[34] Q. Excuse me, I didn’t hear you. A. Roughly 40 
percent.

Q. Forty, all right. What percentage of the State 
Democratic Committee is black? A. Less than 1.

Q. Less than 1? A. Yes.

THE COURT: Less than one what, sir?

A. One percent.

THE COURT: Of the State Democratic Executive Com­
mittee?

A. Yes.

THE COURT: Is less than 1 percent white?

A. Black.



385

THE COURT: Less than 1 percent black. I thought he 
asked about white. Well, your local executive committee —

MR. STILL: If I asked about white I’m sorry. I meant 
to ask about black.

THE COURT: Your testimony about the local commit­
tee, is that 40 percent white or black?

A. It’s about 40 percent black.

THE COURT: Forty percent black.

Q. Mr. Marshall, have you participated in drawing up 
with the Democratic Party or has the Democratic Commit­
tee while you’ve been a member of it, State Democratic 
Committee, drawn up any sort of affirmative action plan? 
[35] A. Yes.

MR. RAY: Objection. It exceeds the scope of direct.

THE COURT: How’s that? You’re starting all over on 
direct examination, aren’t you? Why didn’t you bring this 
out on direct?

MR. STILL: Your Honor, I didn’t go into party posts 
on direct examination. It was brought up on cross ex­
amination.

THE COURT: No, it was brought up in response on 
cross but now you’re getting into something even beyond 
party nomination, getting into affirmative action. If you 
want to reopen your direct examination I’ll let you do it 
but I’ll give him opportunity on cross.

MR. STILL: I’m not trying to.



386

THE COURT: You’re reopening by going into an area 
of affirmative action because nothing has been brought up 
with the witness on it, as I see it. As you wish to do so, 
proceed to do so and we’ll go back to cross examination.

MR. STILL: Your Honor, may I explain why I’m going 
into this area?

THE COURT: Yes, sir.

MR. STILL: The inference that can be drawn from 
cross examination was that a, that blacks have an equal 
opportunity or very good opportunity to be elected to 
Democratic positions. I am simply trying to show that it is 
a national policy of the party, Democratic Party, that 
there must be affirmative [36] action plans.

THE COURT: If that’s the kind of affirmative action 
you’re talking about it might be different. Go ahead, sir. I 
thought you were going into something else.

Q. All right. Mr. Marshall, what sorts of things does 
this affirmative action plan cover? A. Well, it guarantees 
that minority groups will be represented in all strata of the 
Democratic Party.

Q. All right, sir. Now, are those, is that a national 
policy of the Democratic Party? A. It is the national 
Democratic Party down through the state into the local 
county unit.

THE COURT: Counsel, with deference to you, in going 
into this, it is pretty well established blacks are treated all 
right by that party. Now you’re just showing even more 
firmly they do pretty well by them. I don’t understand. 
You’re not adding or detracting anything from the prior 
testimony.



387

MR. STILL: I’m simply trying to show that the motiva­
tion for that was that it was a national policy.

THE COURT: Regardless whether it’s a national policy 
or local policy or whatever, it may be, it’s policy that’s ef­
fective, isn’t it? You’re certainly not going to show to the 
contrary, it is not local policy. Go ahead, sir. I just think 
you’re getting stretched out, Counselor.

[37] Q. Let’s speak for a moment, Mr. Marshall, about 
rallies that are held in black communities. You were asked 
whether candidates come and make promises. I believe 
you also responded that racists will sometimes come in and 
make statements at these rallies in the black communities. 
Do those white candidates who come there follow through 
on those promises once they’re elected?

MR. RAY: Objection to exceeding the scope. He’s get­
ting into responsiveness. If he wants to recall the witness 
on that, let’s do it.

THE COURT: No, objection overruled. You went into 
this on cross.

A. Well, very little has been done by, I guess, the ma­
jority of the candidates that come in and make these pro­
mises. They come in with their statements that, what 
they’re going to do, but we see very little of it.

Q. About what percentage of the candidates for City 
Council come to those rallies in black neighborhoods? 
A. If it is a rally that’s sponsored, for instance, by a group 
or something, usually you have quite a few of them turn 
out.



388

Q. Is it unusual to see white candidates at these 
rallies? A. No.

MR. STILL: Thank you very much.
* * * * *



389

[43] MR, CATON: Your Honor, I don’t understand
how if a witness decides he didn’t like what he said he can 
come back again, and this opens up the door to all 
witnesses who decide they didn’t like what they said.

THE COURT: Mr. Caton, if it opens up the door you 
take him on cross examination and see why he changed his 
mind. It goes to the weight of the evidence. The man has a 
right to change his mind on testimony and it goes to the 
weight. It is true the question came late and it’s a quick 
question and answer. Note the objections for the defen­
dants. I’m going to let you call him back for the limited 
purpose only of going into that one statement, nothing 
else.

MR. STILL: Yes, sir, that is all.

THE COURT: All right, call him.

MR. STILL: Mr. Marshall.

WILLIAM H. MARSHALL,

recalled as a witness by the plaintiffs, having been 
previously duly sworn, further testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. STILL:

Q. Mr. Marshall, you testified yesterday and so you’re 
still under oath. Mr. Marshall, yesterday there as a ques­
tion to you regarding access to the political process which 
came, I believe, at the end of cross examination. What do 
you mean or what did you mean in answer to that [44] 
question about access to the political process? A. I only 
meant that legally the access to the political procedure was 
there, legally. The Democratic Party throughout its struc­



390

ture provides for equal opportunities for everyone but you 
get snarled down when you get into the realities of being 
able to fully participate in the political process. You can’t, 
for instance, garner enough funds by being black, you 
can’t make the necessary contact. Very seldom will you get 
invitation to the clubs or organizations that will mean the 
difference in whether or not you are elected, such as the 
Lions, Kiwanis and et cetera, and this is what I meant. 1 
didn’t mean that you had full access to all of the ramifica­
tions of the political process.

Q. Thank you, sir. Now, after you testified yesterday 
did you come in the courtroom and listen to any of the 
testimony? A. Yes, I did.

Q. Do you remember which witnesses you listened 
to? A. I listened to Mr. McWilliams, I think, Mr. 
Royster and Mr. Crosswright. I think these were the ones.

MR. STILL: All right, thank you very much, Mr. Mar­
shall.

THE COURT: Cross examination?

MR. RAY: Thank you, Your Honor.

[45] CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. RAY:

Q. Mr. Marshall, how did it come about that you were 
here again this morning? A. I was asked to return by the 
lawyers.

Q. When did you discuss with them your testimony 
yesterday and therefore again today? A. Basically I 
didn’t discuss it. I was asked to, for an explanation.



391

Q, Did the attorneys ask you for an explanat ion of what 
you meant by your testimony yesterday? A. Yes.

Q. And the explanation that you gave them was 
what? A. Well, the same as I’ve stated this morning.

Q. I see. Now, what you stated this morning was that 
there was, there is the legal access to the political 
process? A. Right.

Q. You don’t deny that? A. No.

But you’re saying as a practical matter you can’t fully 
participate? A. Correct.

Q. Okay. You mentioned three times, invitations to 
such things as Lions Clubs and Kiwanis Clubs. [46] A. Yes.

Q. That is one example of what you mean about not be­
ing able to fully participate, is that correct? A. That’s 
correct.

Q. Would this be for purposes of being able to speak to 
the memberships of those clubs and address them in 
meetings? A. That’s correct.

Q. For instance if you were a candidate for office?

THE COURT: Is that what you meant by that, Mr. 
Marshall? A. Yes.

Q. Just to make sure I understand what you’re saying, 
Bill, if you were a candidate for office you are not, 
because of your race, the recipient of invitations to speak 
to those luncheon clubs and whatever about your can­
didacy? A. That is correct. Nor do we get full participa­
tion from the media either.

Q. Okay, now, as far as —



392

THE COURT: What was that, sir?

A. From the media.

THE COURT: What do you mean?

A. We usually are not given the same kind of coverage 
as white candidates in the media.

[47] Q. Have you — please recount to me all the details 
of each and every instance when you requested media 
coverage and the same was not affored to you. A. All 
right, during my, at least all of my campaigns, I talked to 
Earle Bowden at the News-Journal and I talked to others 
and I haven’t received the same kind of coverage. Another 
thing is that they don’t —

Q. Let met interrupt you at that point now. You say you 
talked to Earle Bowden but you haven’t received the same 
type of coverage? A. Right.

Q. Newspaper coverage? A. The same kind of 
coverage that my opponents or other white candidates had 
from the media. For instance our announcements that 
we’re going to run, whereas the white candidate can get 
almost a full page on the front page announcing his can­
didacy black candidates can’t do this. We haven’t been do­
ing this.

Q. Okay, as far as you’re concerned, your races, you 
have never received a full page on the front page announc­
ing your your candidacy, is that correct? A. Right. 
That’s correct.

Q. How much column inch or space would your an­
nouncement of candidacy take up in the newspaper, and 
on what page or section would it be? [48] A. Well, on an 
average the news media usually along with pictures an­



393

nounces, gives the biographical data of a candidate and 
also makes the announcement that he’s going to run for, 
say, an office, and et cetera. Usually when blacks are go­
ing to run, if they get anything it will be a black enters this 
particular race or a black is vying for such and such a race, 
and this is the way it goes.

Q. Okay, Mr. Marshall, I’m going to ask you to limit 
your comments as I’ve limited my question. I want to talk 
about your races first. How much publicity has the 
newspaper given to your races, your race? A. A very 
minimum.

Q. And where have those articles appeared in the 
paper? A. Mostly, most of the time when they have ap­
peared on an average they were in a hidden comment or in 
the full reporting, for instance, on a particular race.

Q. I see.

THE COURT: Everybody else was in the full report?

A. Yes, but they’re getting along with that, they’re get­
ting individual announcements and et cetera. Anything 
they do, for instance, if they speak to —

THE COURT: All right, sir.

Q. Okay, sir, you have never had a separate article an­
nouncing your candidacy? [49] A. I don’t recall one.

Q. Now, this is what you mean by full participation of 
the media as far as the newspaper is concerned? That’s 
your complaint in that regard, is that correct? A. That’s 
correct.

Q. Okay, now, I think you mentioned other black can­
didacies that you’ve observed. I believe your testimony



394

was that there is always some suggestive headline that a 
black enters this race. A. Right.

Q. Is that correct? A. That’s correct.

Q. Cite me the names of the black candidates who have 
been subjected to that kind of publicity and when. A. All 
black candidates as far as I know have been subjected to 
the same type of treatment, either the first black to do this 
or the black candidate, and specifics, my race with Mr. 
Brockett for the City Council, this was vividly pointed 
out. It in my opinion polarized the community, black 
against white.

Q. That was Marshall against Brockett, what year? A. 
This was 1971 if I’m not wrong.

THE COURT: Who was that? Broxson, did you say?

A. Brockett.

THE COURT: B-R-O-X-S-O-N?

[50] MR. CATON: B-R-O-C-K-E-T-T.

THE COURT: Brockett.

Q. What was done in that race? A. The same kind of 
polarization. I remember the news media, the paper, a day 
prior to election said, “This is your choice,” and here we 
are; I think the editorial read that, “You will know what to 
do,” something to that effect. This was in the editorial the 
day prior to the election.

Q. Was this the article in which the newspaper sets forth 
their endorsements of candidates? A. This is one of the 
articles where they, those of us locally know that they, for 
the past few years they have not literally endorsed but 
what they have done, they have circumvented endorse­
ment by projecting certain candidates.



395

Q. By doing what? A. Projecting certain candidates. I 
meant by that they have wrote their stories in such a 
slanted way where it was evident who they were endorsing 
or selecting.

Q. Is that what happened between you and Mr. Brockett 
in 1971 in your race for the City Council? A. That’s cor­
rect.

Q. That the day before the day of the election there was 
a slanted story against you and in favor of Mr. 
Brockett? A. Correct.

[51] Q. And did it have your pictures? A. I don’t think 
this particular article had a picture of mine in it.

THE COURT: You say this was the day before your 
election?

A. The day before election. I think there was also an ar­
ticle the morning of the election.

Q. Okay. And do you remember any better what it said, 
either that slammed you or was that in favor of 
Brockett? A. Well, it was typical of what the News- 
Journal usually does in reporting, particularly on black 
candidates. The only, well, number one, they make sure 
that you are, it’s known throughout the county that you 
are a black candidate with the insinuation that, “You 
know how to vote.” Not only that is that WCOA the day 
of election polled precincts —

Q. Mr. Marshall, let me ask you to limit your com­
ments, please, to the newspaper. We’re going to take every 
one of the media as far as it relates to you and other black 
candidates, so let’s talk about you and the newspaper.

THE COURT: First, is what you’re telling me, and 
you’ll get to the rest — go ahead.



396

MR. RAY: Pardon?

THE COURT: You’re telling him let’s stay with this and 
you’ll get to the rest later.

MR. RAY: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Go ahead.

Q. Okay, that was in 1971? A. If I remember correct­
ly-

Q. Okay, any other instance in which this denial of full 
participation in the media by the newspaper, as far as 
you’re concerned? A. This has happened in each election 
that I have entered into and I ran in three.

Q. Okay, let’s take them. What’s the next one after 
1971? A. It would be my legislative race.

Q. When was that? A. If I’m not mistaken I think this 
was during the ‘74 term.

Q. Okay, who did you run against? A. Presently 
Senator Tom Tobiassen.

Q. Okay, what did the newspaper do to you then? A. 
It did the same kind of reporting on me that it had done 
previously.

Q. Specifically? A. Specifically slanted articles by the 
mere fact that I was black and on one occasion it noted 
that I happened to have been a very strong black can­
didate.

[53] Q. What type of article was it? Was it an endorse­
ment article, a genuine news article, announcement of can­
didacy? A. I think this was in the overall article and also 
the editorial, as usual, the editorial comments.



397

Q. Editorial, okay. Anything else in that race? I assume 
that was with regard to the general election. A. Right.

Q. Who had the newspaper endorsed in connection with 
the Democratic primary prior to that general 
election? A. I can’t recall that.

Q. Okay, anything else in that election? A. Nothing 
that I can specifically recall.

Q. Okay, what was your next race? A. 1 believe it was 
only three.

Q. Okay, you mentioned Marshall versus Brocket! in 
1971, Marshall versus Tobiassen in 1974. A. Marshall 
versus Elebash in 1969.

Q. Okay. Did the newspaper do the same thing to you 
then? A. Correct.

Q. Specifically what? A. Again lack of proper or 
equal coverage and slanted articles that, when we were 
covered.

*  *  *  *  *



398

TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES L. COTTRELL

[3] DR. CHARLES L. COTRELL,

called as a witness by the plaintiffs, being first duly sworn, 
testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. MENEFEE:

0  May it please the Court, this is Dr. Charles L. Cotrell. 
He lives at 508 West Craig Street, San Antonio, Texas. 
He’s thirty-seven years of age. His education includes a 
BA and MA degrees from St. Mary’s University and a 
Ph.D degree in the field of political science from the 
University of Arizona. He is married and has two 
children. He is employed as a professor of political science 
at St. Mary’s University, San Antonio, Texas. He’s been 
teaching at the university level, both undergraduate and 
graduate, for approximately sixteen years. Is that a correct 
statement, Dr. Cotrell? A That’s correct, Mr. Menefee.

THE COURT: You offer him as an expert in what
area?

MR. MENEFEE: The field of political science, Your 
Honor.

THE COURT: Political Science?

MR. MENEFEE: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Does anyone wish to interrogate respect­
ing qualifications?

MR. CARR: No, Your Honor.

[4] MR. MENEFEE: Your Honor, ! would like to put in 
some additional information about his background.

THE COURT: Excuse me, I thought you had finished.



399

Q Dr. Cotrell, would you please tell us what profes­
sional organizations you’re a member of. A I’m a 
member of the American Political Science Association. 
I’m also a member of the Southwestern Political Science 
Association. I’m a member of the American Society of 
Public Administrators.

Q Would you give us a brief description of your 
publications and convention papers, please, sir. A Yes. 
I’ll spare the court the convention papers. There are some 
fifteen of those. Publications include articles for example 
in Publius, the Journal o f  American Federalism, on the 
Voting Rights Act and Local Standards of Representation; 
monographs on municipal services equalization published 
by the Department of Urban Studies of St. Mary’s Univer­
sity, and the effects of at large elections on blacks and 
Mexican-American voters in Texas, published in govern­
ment publications, among other things.

Q Okay, sir, would you tell us very briefly what 
research grants or fellowships you’ve been the recipient 
of. A Yes. I ’ve received g ran ts from  the 
National [4] Science Foundation. I’ve received a grant 
from the John Hay Whitney Foundation of New York to 
research political access and governmental services in four 
Southwestern cities that ran for four years. I have also 
received grants to conduct videotape interviews of 
Southwestern political figures as well as Latin-American 
political figures in 1976 and 1977.

Q Would you briefly describe the courses that you 
teach at the university. A I teach courses in public ad­
ministration, in American political thought and other 
courses in political theory, and I also teach courses in 
Political attitudes and voting behavior.



400

Q On this basis we ask the court to accept Dr. Cotrell 
as an expert in the field of political science.

THE COURT: You don’t wish to inquire?

MR. CARR: That is correct, Your Honor.

THE COURT: You may proceed.

Q Dr. Cotrell is your fee for working on behalf of 
plaintiffs in this case contingent on the outcome of the 
case?
A No, it is not.

Q When were you first contacted by Mr. Blacksher 
and myself? A I was contacted in January; January or 
February of 1977.

[5] Q Okay, sir. What did we ask you to study? 
A You asked me to examine the impact of the at large 
election systems in Pensacola and in Escambia County, in 
the school district races and also in the County Commis­
sion, on the access of black voters.

Q Okay, sir.

THE COURT: The School Board and County Commis­
sion? A Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Well, those were the two? A Pen­
sacola, City of Penscola, and the County Commission and 
the School Board.

THE COURT: Oh, I see. All right, sir. A Yes.

Q Dr. Cotrell, have you been a witness in other litiga­
tion similar to this? A Yes, I have.

0  Dr. Cotrell, would you please tell us how you went 
about preparing your study. What sources did you con-



401

suit? A I began studying the Pensacola and Escambia 
County electoral system first by coming over here on, I 
suppose, five or six different occasions from the period ‘77 
through ’78. I asked for raw vote returns and have examined 
the raw vote returns for numerous elections in the city, 
the county and the school district. I have asked [6] for 
and examined the regression analyses run on the city and 
the school district and the county, those analyses now in 
evidence before this court. 1 examined for background 
material newspapers, any kind of printed material that I 
would find on Escambia County, some on Florida and the 
South, and also I conducted interviews with some twenty 
to twenty-five persons as background. They were informal 
interviews attempting to learn more about the politics and 
the dynamics of elections in the city and the county and 
the school district.

Q Okay, sir. A I also, I might say, did spend some 
time actually, as it were, driving and walking the county 
and the city itself.

Q Okay, sir. And have you been present through the
trial of the case? A And Eve been present through the
testimony in this trial up to this time.

Q Okay, sir. You mentioned newspapers. Over what 
period of time have you reviewed newspaper articles? 
A Roughly 1955 to 1978. The brunt of that analysis, 
however, has been in more recent years.

Q Dr. Cotrell, I would like to ask you to first help us 
understand two terms, to give us a definition, if you will, 
please, sir, of first what is a [7] polarized vote?
What does it mean to you as a professional? A.
A polarized vote is a voting situation or a dynamic 
wherein two recognizable groups vote differently and 
usually over time on candidates or issues. That’s what a



402

racial, a polarized vote means. It could be based on race or 
based on something else.

Q Okay, sir, you mentioned a time factor, over a 
period of time. What sort of period of time do you need to 
study to make such a judgment? A Well, it’s my opinion 
that you would want to take a fifteen to twenty year 
period, longer if possible, and examine the patterns, 
voting patterns, over that period of time.

Q The next term I wish you would address, Dr. 
Cotrell, is vote dilution. A Vote dilution is a term which 
means that the voting preference of a group, a cognizable 
group, has been submerged or thwarted or canceled in the 
context of, it’s usually used in the context of racially 
polarized voting. That’s the way I’ve heard it. And in the 
context of racially polarized voting dilution means that the 
voting preferences of one group are thwarted over time by 
the voting preferences of another group.

Q Okay, sir. This time factor that you referred to, 
would that be similar to the one, the same time 
span [8] you mentioned in relation to the polarized 
vote definition? A Well, I think, if I understand your 
question correctly, before one would reach a judgment 
concerning dilution you would want to look at the 
phenomenon over time. You would not want to isolate the 
one race or two races or a small, a very short span of time.

THE COURT: Doctor, let me interrupt. On your dilu­
tion, it does not include the factor of some form of official 
action on the part of the state or the county or the city that 
either purposely or has the effect of dilution? That’s not a 
factor in your definition of dilution? A That’s correct, 
Your Honor.



403

THE COURT: Your definition doesn’t get into
that? A My definition of dilution really deals with voter 
preferences being submerged.

THE COURT: I understand what you said, yes, sir, 
and that’s the reason you tied it to polarization as a factor 
in it that shows it consistently over a period of time, 
because one race has more political votes than the other; 
the other group is simply not, doesn’t get anybody elected 
and that kind of thing. A That is correct, Your Honor.

THE COURT: And you don’t take in that other factor.
I didn’t think I heard it. Go ahead, sir.

[9] Q Dr. Cotrell, is this dynamic of vote dilution 
associated at times.with at large election systems? A Yes. 
The notion of dilution in behavior and in law, I think, has 
been examined principally in the context or situation of at 
large elections. What happens in an at large election struc­
ture or electoral system, if you have the existence of racial­
ly polarized voting, it is possible over time for the at large 
structure to amplify the preferences of one voting majority 
over time, thereby canceling or diluting or thwarting the 
voting preferences of another group over time.

Q I see, sir. A And this is the effect of dilution in an 
at large structure.

Q Dr. Cotrell, have you formed an opinion on 
whether or not the vote of black citizens in Escambia 
County and Pensacola is diluted in the three jurisdictions 
we asked you to study? A Yes, I have. I’ve formed the 
opinion that racially polarized voting exists in the City of 
Pensacola, in the School Board, school district, and in 
Escambia County.



404

0  Okay, sir. A And also I reached the conclusion 
that dilution exists also in those three jurisdictions.

[10] Q Okay, sir. Dr. Cotrell, would you please address 
each of those jurisdictions separately and tell us what the 
basis of your opinion is for each one. Perhaps, shall we 
start with the county? A I was, well, I was - it’s fine if 
you want to start with the county. I was going to start with 
the city.

Q The city, okay, sir. A Yes.

THE COURT: It suits you, doesn’t it, Counselor? Go 
ahead.

THE COURT: MENEFEE: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Go ahead with it the way you have it set 
up. Start with the city.

0  If you’ll start with the city, Dr. Cotrell. A I ex­
amined, to reach my opinion I examined the regression 
analyses and for the city those included a great number. 
They included ajl races wherein blacks ran. I think there 
were some twenty races and eleven black candidates. It 
also included all winners in city elections in the period, in 
the seventies, the decade of the seventies, and it also in­
cluded a random selection of winning elections or winners, 
rather, during the decade of the sixties, excluding, of 
course, in this sample, the black, the cases wherein blacks 
were candidates for office which had already been covered 
previously. I also examined raw voting returns [11] and 
attempted through background interview sources to learn 
as much as I could about the City of Pensacola and its 
politics and the electoral dynamics here. I found in the 
regression analyses that consistently the phenomenon of 
racially polarized voting existed. It existed at a point 
higher than the statistical .50 “r” squared, which means



405

that half of the variance in the dependent variable that the 
candidate receives is explained by the factor of race. But 
that wasn’t enough. You have to look at raw vote returns. 
You see, before you could reach a conclusion of dilution 
you would have to, of course, have extant racially polarized 
voting but you would also have to have evidence of a 
submergence or a canceling of the voting preferences of, in 
this case, the black citizens of Pensacola. And so to do 
that I supplemented the regression analyses, and if the 
court would permit I would like to summarize some of 
that raw vote analysis, and this is what I did. I looked at 95 
percent white-registered voter precincts in the city. They 
range from, in number, of, twelve to fifteen. And I looked 
at 95 percent black voting precincts, black-registered voter 
precincts in the city, and I attempted to see if in fact in 
these highly concentrated areas if we had a situation where 
consistently and over time blacks were voting one way and 
whites were voting another. And also I looked at the 
number of people who were elected to [12] office. I 
found that looking at the seventies in this analysis, for ex­
ample, in 1971 in the city my records show that four 
blacks, Mr. Bill Marshall, Mr. W. F. Hendrieth, Mr. 
Henderson and Mr. Hollice Williams, ran for office. And 
looking at those -

THE COURT: This is all in 1971? A Nineteen
seventy-one, Your Honor. No, this is not. It goes on 
through to ’77, Your Honor.

THE COURT: That’s what I was thinking. You start 
with ’71. A If you want me to summarize this entire 
thing quickly.

THE COURT: No, you referred to 1971. You just con­
fused me. A That is this race, and I could go -



406

THE COURT: Well, you just go on. A 1 want to give 
the court the idea.

THE COURT: I just misunderstood your testimony. I 
thought you were saying there were four blacks that ran in 
1971 and 1 didn’t remember that. Were there four blacks 
that ran in 1971? A Well, I think that Mr. Marshall, 
Hendrieth, Henderson and Williams did, yes, sir.

THE COURT: All four of these ran in 1971? A Yes.

[13] THE COURT: But that was not in the city race. 
A Yes, sir.

THE COURT: It was in the city race?

MR. MENEFEE: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: I’m sorry I stopped you. You go right 
ahead. A Yes, sir. I found that there were twelve ninety- 
five and above registered white voter precincts. This gives 
you a really good idea because there are very few black 
voters in those precincts. It gives you a very good idea 
about how the white voters in these residentially concen­
trated precincts are voting and viewing the black can­
didate, and I found in ’71 that Mr. Marshall, Mr. Hen­
drieth and Mr. Henderson carried absolutely none of 
those. By carrying 1 mean 50 percent. I found furthermore 
that in that year those precincts alone, those twelve alone 
constituted 42 percent of the total vote cast in the election. 
And I found that the only black candidate who scored ap­
preciably well in those precincts was Mr. Hollice Williams 
and he carried eleven of them.

Q Eleven of the - A Eleven of the twelve, yes.

Q Okay, sir. A I found that with an exception of 
Mr. Henderson that the black precincts, the 95 percent



407

registered black [14] precincts, scored for, voted for 
the black candidate at a range of from 65 to 77 percent. 
Henderson received a near majority but not a majority in 
that case. Then I looked at the next elections, which were 
’75, where blacks were running opposed. Obviously 
if they’re running unopposed it doesn’t affect this analysis. 
And I found in ’75 that we had two blacks run­
ning for office, Mr. Hollice -I’m sorry, three blacks: Mr. 
Holiice Williams; Mr. Brewer, who testified yesterday; 
and Mr., Dr. Donald Spence. And we found that Mr. 
Brewer carried none of the fifteen precincts, found that Mr. 
Williams carried thirteen of the fifteen precincts, and that 
Mr. Spence carried six of the fifteen precincts. The ranges 
of support for Mr. Spence, Brewer and Williams ranged 
from 71 to 97 percent in the black precincts. Now I would 
like to add here also we have correlations, “r” squares.

THE COURT: The range in the black precincts, will 
you give me that. A Oh, yes, sir. They ranged from 71 
to 97 percent for the black candidates. Brewer received the 
lowest, 71. Dr. Spence received 97 percent. Mr. Hollice 
Williams, 96 percent. Then in 1977 there were two can­
didates, my records show, Mr. W. F. Hendrieth again and 
Mrs. Ruby Gainer, and there were fourteen of the oh, I 
forgot one thing on ‘75, that in ‘75, 50 percent of 
the [15] vote in the total votes cast was a product of 
those, at that time, fifteen precincts.

Q The white precincts? A White precincts, right. 
Then in ’77 I found that Mrs. Gainer carried one of the ten 
fourteen white-registered precincts while carrying 93 per­
cent of the black precincts, that were 95 percent or better 
registered black voters. Mr. Hendrieth carried none of the 
fourteen white precincts and carried a majority of 54 per­
cent of the black precincts. I had to examine these data



408

closely because obviously when you have the election of a 
black candidate then you’ve, it’s difficult to allege that 
there’s dilution because the preference of the blacks, there 
may be polarization but the preference of the black com­
munity and enough of the white community is elected, and 
what is striking here is the fact that the only people who 
have really, the only person who’s ever carried all of the, 
I’m sorry, a majority of the white precincts, has been Mr. 
Hollice Williams. And the only other person who is even 
on the scoreboard, that is, carrying six of fifteen white 
precincts in 1975, is Dr. Donald Spence. And although one 
could not say that there is dilution in the Spence and in the 
Williams elections one could say and has to say that cer­
tainly the fact that these two individuals were the only two 
introduced into the political system, into election, 
by [16] an all-white Council, would have in impact.

Q Dr. Cotrell, while you’re there would you please ex­
plain what significance being introduced by, I think you 
said all-white City Council, what significance is that to 
you on your opinion? A Voters -

MR. CATON: Your Honor, if I could interpose an ob­
jection here, at the time Dr. Spence was introduced into 
the City Council, appointed to the City Council, he was 
not appointed by an all-white Council. Hollice Williams 
was a member.

THE COURT: He did not say he was appointed by the 
Council. He said introduced into it by an all-white Coun­
cil. A Yes, 1 understand the distinction and I meant in­
troduced, Your Honor, instead of voted on by then 
Hollice Williams in ’73. I appreciate the distinction.

Q Dr. Cotrell, when you say introduced, is that 
synonymous with being appointed to office? A Well, 1



409

mean you’re appointed and these precincts which in the ci­
ty in the seventies, again nearly all white, overwhelmingly 
voted against black candidates, apparently took cues in 
these instances and voted with the black precincts. Then I 
think I gave the court the ’77 statistics. And S would point 
in 1977 60 percent of the [17] total votes cast in the city 
came from the then fourteen predominantly white 
precincts.

THE COURT: You say 60 percent? A Sixty per­
cent, Your Honor. So we can see a couple of things from 
this analysis and it influenced me along with the regres­
sions in reaching my conclusion concerning dilution. We 
can see that a preponderant vote in city elections is coming 
from the preponderantly white-registered precincts, and 
we can also see that these precincts, a majority of the time, 
to not vote at all with black candidates. Some of the time 
they vote, well, a black candidate can carry one or a black 
candidate can carry maybe six of fifteen, but the only per­
son, Mr. Hollice Williams, who has carried a majority of 
these precincts and better, has been Mr. Hollice Williams.

Q I see, sir.

THE COURT: Are you about to finish on the city part 
of it? A On the city, yes, sir.

THE COURT: I was wondering. It’s about time to
take a break. If he’s at the conclusion perhaps we ought to 
take about a ten or fifteen minute break. You’ll be on the 
stand for, you’ll have him, he’ll be with us another thirty 
or forty minutes, at least, I’m sure.

MR. MENEFEE: We have a few more questions, Your 
Honor, [18] yes, sir. Yes, sir; I’m sorry.

THE COURT: We’re going through the county and 
other things. What was it, Doctor? A Should I leave 
this stuff up here?



410

THE COURT: It will be perfectly all right. We’ll take 
about a ten or fifteen minute recess.

(Recess)

DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED 

BY MR. MENEFEE:

Q Dr. Cotrell, we were discussing the basis of your 
opinion as to the judgment you reached on this city 
government, City of Pensacola elections, and you men­
tioned previously the factor of the City Council approving 
or appointing Mr. Hollice Williams and Mr. Spence, Dr. 
Spence, and you used the term it was a cue. What do you 
mean? What effect from the standpoint of behavioral 
science does this type of approval have? A There are a 
group of political scientists and social scientists, I think 
who would have us believe that the electorates are fun­
damentally not very responsible, not very intelligent. That 
isn’t my point of view. But we also, when we judge in­
telligence of electorates, have to look at, distinguished be­
tween general symbols which they recognize, and specifics.

Q Such as? [19] A Well, if you ask the electorate 
at any given time what the President or the Mayor’s posi­
tion is on March 23rd, on this position, you might be 
disappointed. But V. O. Key, Jr., a venerable political 
scientist, wrote a book just at his death, The Responsible 
Electorate, where he tried to show over a long period of 
time electorates are aware.

THE COURT: They are w hat? A T hey are aware.

THE COURT: All right, go ahead. A And what I 
mean by cue is that leadership, visible leadership in the 
community, political leadership, of course, we’re speaking 
of that in this case, socio-economic leadership, of course, 
visible people in the community, people who have in­



41 i

fluence in the community, by their actions and by their en­
dorsements and by their policies can tell voters, not tell 
voters but can give voters cues, directions and leanings. 
When I look at these statistics, I look at Mr. Williams, 
Henderson, Hendrieth and Marshall in 1971 and I have to 
ask why did Mr. Williams receive, win eleven of these 
predominantly white-registered precincts and the other 
blacks none. I have to ask that question, and one very 
plausible explanation to me is the fact that, unlike the 
other three, Mr. Williams was introduced by, in Mr. 
Williams’ case, an all-white Council, and there is a 
degree [20] of acceptability associated with him that 
might distinguish in independence and so on from the 
other three black candidates. That’s what I mean.

Q Thank you. Now, Dr. Cotrell, would you please 
turn your attention to the next jurisdiction and tell us what 
was the basis. Does that conclude your basis of your opi­
nion as to the city? A Well, of course entering in all of 
these opinions are the testimony I’ve heard there, but also 
the interviews, the informal interviews, but those are prin­
cipal bases of the opinion, yes.

Q Okay, wo Jd you turn your attention to the next 
jurisdiction. 7. To the school district.

Q Okay, sir. A The School Board elections.

Q What was your basis for your opinion as to the 
School Board? A In the School Board cases I think I 
have on record the number of elections that were studies, 
but fundamentally all races wherein blacks ran and all 
races in the decade of the sixties and the seventies wherein 
there were winners.

Q You’re referring to the regression analyses? A 
The regression analyses, of course, were [21] run on all



412

of those races, so we have “r” squares or race as a factor, 
influential factor, predominant factor, in -

THE COURT: You used the same approach here as 
you did in the city? A Exactly, Your Honor.

THE COURT: And that would be true when you get to 
the School Board? A That is correct.

THE COURT: All right, sir, go ahead. I mean the
County Commissioners, because you are now on the 
School Board. A Yes, sir.

THE COURT: The same approach all the way through, 
is what you’re telling us. A Yes, sir.

THE COURT: All right, sir, go ahead and tell us. A I 
found racial polarization, but as I told you earlier, racial 
polarization doesn’t always mean dilution. I found in the 
School Board races then, using the same kind of analysis 
except for the wider Escambia County, that is, the 
predominantly white-registered, predominantly black- 
registered precincts, I found that in 1974 where Mr. Elmer 
Jenkins ran in the School Board race that there were sixty- 
nine predominantly white precincts and he was able to 
carry nine of those at a majority. Those precincts cast 
out [22] of a hundred, I think a hundred-twelve or 
hundred-fourteen total precincts 64.5 percent of the vote, 
total votes cast. I found further that Mr. Jenkins was able 
to carry the black precincts, 95 percent black-registered 
and above, 96 percent. 1 found in the general election that 
year - again, Mr. Jenkins won the primary.

THE COURT: This was the primary? A This was the 
primary, Your Honor, and the general election he won.



413

THE COURT: Wait a minute. A The primary, and 
now we’re going to the general election.

THE COURT: Who was his opponent in the
primary? A His opponent in the primary was Sanders, I 
think.

THE COURT: He was a white man, black
man? A He was a white man.

THE COURT: And he carried this even though he only 
carried nine of the sixty-nine? A He carried nine of the 
sixty-nine and won in a very close race, yes.

THE COURT: How could that be? There wasn’t
polarization; there had to be some crossover. A Yes, he 
had some crossover. In fact, Your Honor, the notion of 
racial dilution takes into account [23] crossover. I 
mean there has to, there’s no suggestion -

THE COURT: Well, in this particular race this is
evidence that polarization was not effective, that it was 
not there, that there was crossover voting sufficient to 
allow him to win the nomination. A Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Is that right? A Not in, I don’t think 
at all in those precincts but he gathered enough votes in the 
rest of the city to do it in a very close election in the 
Democratic primary, yes, and what I’m saying, Your 
Honor, is that it’s being offered into evidence because it is 
the overall pattern of those predominantly white and black 
precincts we’re looking at that you make your judgment 
on.

THE COURT: You have to take in, when you get
through with all these things, you have to take into ac­
count, as you’re doing, the results obtained. A Whether 
he won or not, and he won in the Democratic primary.



414

THE COURT: He obviously had to have some white 
crossover votes. A Oh, undoubtedly, he had to have.

THE COURT: So when you talk about somebody
voting by race, there were undoubtedly a good many white 
people in that race voting not by race but for the can­
didate.
[24] A That’s clear.

THE COURT: All right. A That’s clear. However, it 
doesn’t disturb the pattern of the predominantly white 
precincts and the way they go in this election. They did 
cast a significant portion of the vote. In the general elec­
tion Mr. Jenkins, this was against a Republican, Mr. 
Jenkins carried four of sixty-nine of the predominantly 
white precincts and 94 percent of the black precincts that 
were predominantly -

THE COURT: He carried only four of those
predominantly white precincts in the general election? 
A And lost to a Republican, Your Honor. Then in 1976, 
the School Board race, this must be, yes, it’s the primary, 
Mr. Jenkins carried none of the then sixty-three 
predominantly white precincts. They in turn accounted for 
61 percent of the total vote cast, and he carried 93 percent 
of the predominantly black wards or precincts. And final­
ly in primary one Dr. Spence, who was an incumbent on 
the School Board at that time, carried none of the 
predominantly white-registered precincts. Those precincts, 
those sixty-three, accounted for 72.6 percent of the vote, 
total vote cast. And Dr. Spence carried 93 percent of the 
black precincts. And finally in the School Board runoff, 
1976, Your Honor, Dr. Spence lost that runoff by twenty- 
nine to nineteen thousand.

[25] THE COURT: But the vote in the primary was suf­
ficient to put him in there notwithstanding the fact he car-



415

ried none of the white precincts? A No, he was able to 
get in the runoff.

THE COURT: No, he was in the primary one, wasn’t 
he? A He got about fifteen thousand votes, Your 
Honor.

THE COURT: Did he lose in the primary or general 
election? A He lost in the runoff in the primary.

THE COURT: He lost in the runoff in the primary? 
A Yes.

THE COURT: He had enough votes in the first run? 
A There were three candidates, sixteen, fifteen and ten 
thousand distribution, roughly. He lost the runoff. He 
carried none of the sixty-three white precincts and he car­
ried 98 percent of the predominantly black precincts. On 
that basis and on the basis that racially polarized voting 
exists in the School Board elections I have concluded that 
there is racial dilution of the vote in School Board races in 
Escambia County.

THE COURT: Let me ask you one thing about that. 
There was another candidate in that race who was on the 
School Board and who was running. [26] A Carl West.

THE COURT: And was also defeated. A Yes.

THE COURT: How did you compare his figures with 
Dr. Spence’s? A I did not. I knew that he didn’t get to 
the runoff.

THE COURT: You mean Mr. West didn’t get to the 
runoff? A Yes. He carried approximately five or six 
thousands votes and he ran poorly, in other words.

THE COURT: Yes, but you stopped right there; you 
didn’t compare it to see if there might be another reason



416

other than polarization, another factor entering in that 
particular election? You didn’t go into that? A I, well, I 
eyeballed it, Your Honor, and that is not good enough for 
the record for this kind of a summary. I could find, Mr. 
West didn’t, in these precincts -

THE COURT: White and black? A Well, the white 
precincts. Mr. West did not, 1 saw no discernible pattern 
by eyeballing; in other words a lopsided vote one way or 
the other.

THE COURT: He didn’t take any of the white
precincts, did he? A I don’t think he carried any.

[27] THE COURT: You see, we have a particular situa­
tion. There’s been some testimony about some things 
going on in the School Board before and that’s the reason I 
was interested in seeing whether this might have been 
another situation that you haven’t examined here that was 
in effect. I just wondered but what Dr. Spence may have 
gotten a total number, greater total number of votes than 
did the white man in this race. But you haven’t gone into 
that? A I did not go into the West race other than what I 
indicated to you, yes, sir.

Q Dr. Cotrell, you did in the course, did you in the 
course of your interviews obtain information about prob­
lems relating to the School Board during the issues that 
were raised during that period of time?

THE COURT: I’m sorry.

Q I was asking Dr. Cotrell, part of Dr. CotreiPs 
research was through interviews in the community.

THE COURT: I see. A And I just wanted to ask Dr. 
Cotrell if that type of, that part of his research gave him 
some background as to the problems affecting the School 
Board at that time. A Well, of course -



417

THE COURT: He says he didn’t consider it so I don’t 
know it makes much difference, Counselor. He hasn’t 
[28] gone into it. That’s what I understood. He didn’t go 
into these results to see if there were other factors that 
might have produced the vote. Isn’t that what you said? 
A Well, I did the interviews, Your Honor. I have a 
background about a little about what that election con­
tained in terms of issues and so on.

THE COURT: Did you get a basis for opinion from the 
interviews respecting it? A Well, my interviews revealed 
that the Rebel flag incident which has been much in discus­
sion in the testimony in this court did racially tinge the air, 
the election. Indeed, when you raise the notion of a Rebel 
flag itself, I think you’re talking about a symbol that can 
evoke a racial response. Yes, I considered that interview 
data. I’m going to the principal sources of my conclusion.

THE COURT: Well, do you have any opinion as to 
how it affected the race, elections, of these two men, these 
two people? A I think that in the case of, I can say in the 
case of Dr. Spence that School Board politics at that time 
were, the electorate was racially tinged, and his being 
black, his being as successful as he had been, yes, it would 
account in part for his defeat.

THE COURT: What about Mr. West? A I don’t have 
an opinion on Mr. West. He was [29] an incumbent 
and I don’t think that I got a pattern one way or the other 
on him.

THE COURT: Well, if race was in it, it seems to me 
that the converse, if race was there and it was defeating a 
black man, it should have helped the white man, both be­
ing incumbents. A Well, I don’t know, Your Honor. 
The only thing, I wasn’t able to determine whether Mr.



418

West rose as a visible spokesperson for the black com­
munity, as Dr. Spence is and was.

THE COURT: Well, he was a white person. A Yes, 
he was a white person.

THE COURT: Was he a visible spokesman for the
white community? A Well, no, for black interests. I 
wasn’t able to determine that. In other words if it could be 
determined that Mr. West was a visible spokesperson for 
the white interests or for black interests then I think that 
he might have had the kiss of death; the electorate would 
have swept him out of office.

THE COURT: But you would have to make that
assumption; you can’t A I don’t know what is, I did not 
hear in my interviews that Mr. West was a spokesman.

THE COURT: You really didn’t go into that situation. 
[30] We’re right back into that. A Yes, sir.

THE COURT: All right, sir, go ahead. A And when 
the county -

Q Was there anything further on the School Board, 
the basis of your opinion as to the judgment you reached 
as to the School Board, or is that the conclusion? A 
That concludes it.

Q Okay, sir, now would you turn your attention to the 
county. A In the county I found in the, I think there 
were four races wherein blacks ran 1 found racially 
polarized voting meeting the statistical criterion, .50 ‘V 
squared. I found a dearth of candidates, few candidates 
running, and I found some discouragement among blacks 
based on the interview data. I found some discouragement 
and based on testimony in this courtroom concerning a 
willingness to participate in county politics, or elections, I 
should say.



419

Q This is the first time you’ve mentioned the dearth of 
candidates. What do you attribute that to? A Well, as 
you know, there have been situations where in at-large 
election structures where no, the test of racial polarization 
in a sense can’t be made because there are no black can­
didates or, indeed, a white candidate visibly identified 
with the black community, who [31] have run. And in 
that kind of situation you, to reach a conclusion of dilu­
tion you have to examine the full panorama of the election 
system and one of that, one of those indicators is the will­
ingness, having a significant portion of the voters, one out 
of five of the voters in the election system of your race, 
anyway, the willingness of candidates to run.

Q Do you have an opinion why blacks haven’t run 
recently? A Well, I think there is a discouragement. 
They feel it’s futile to run. I think that the testimony in this 
courtroom reflects that, but more importantly or equally 
importantly to me, uniformly the black interview 
respondents indicated that, and then the actual statistics of 
people who have run indicate that. The last person to run, 
I think, was Mr. Dedmond in 1970, run for election. So, 
Mr. Menefee, what I’m suggesting is that any situation 
where you don’t have, as a word, that many tests, we do 
have four and they indicate racial polarization, but never­
theless in these situations where you don’t have that many 
tests you want to look at factors such as this because if 
candidates feel that it is not worth their while to offer 
themselves for election then in a sense this voter preference 
I spoke of is short-circuited before it even begins. That is, 
voters have no, they have no necessary preference if can­
didates of [32] their persuasion or race aren’t offering 
themselves for office because of a feeling of futility.

Q All right, Dr. Cotrell, were there any other factors 
that you wanted to mention that constitute the basis of



420

your opinion as to the County Commission? A Well, I 
think I mentioned the regression analyses. I mentioned the 
interview data, discouragement factors, and the number 
of candidates. As much as I can recall at this time that’s 
the basis of my opinion.

Q Dr. Cotrell, going on to a slightly different area, in 
this type of study that you conducted in Pensacola and 
Escambia County, is this consistent with methodology 
that you’ve used in other areas? And if so, would you ex­
plain about your methodology. A. If your question, 
Counselor, is, “Is this methodology similar to the other at- 
large jurisdictions I’ve been asked to examine,” Yes, it is. 
It involves election analyses, it involves interviews, it in­
volves ultimately a judgment concerning the effect that a 
particular electoral structure, the at-large structure, has on 
the preferences, voting preferences, of different groups.

0  Dr. Cotrell, Is there any, are there any factors that 
are particularly noteworthy about the study here as to 
what you’ve seen in other jurisdictions? A Well, these 
cases are becoming monuments of [33] evidence. I 
have some experience beginning, of course, with the early 
cases. The evidentiary basis is really strong and of course 
there were a hundred fifty regressions run. I have never 
been in a situation where that many regressions have been 
run on one locality.

THE COURT: You mean a hundred fifty were run
here? A Were run here in Pensacola, and that’s an ex­
traordinary amount in the terms of methodology that’s 
been employed. That’s not to say in other areas that you 
don’t run regressions and election analyses and look at as 
many races and factors as you can but I am saying that 
this is an extraordinary amount of analyses here.



421

THE COURT: Is that good or bad? A Well, I think 
it’s a good thing if you want to reach a sound judgment.

THE COURT: All right, sir. Okay, sir. Dr. Cotrell, 
would you briefly address yourself to the helpfulness 
of the scatter diagrams, for example. A This, yes, 
the scatter diagrams I have used myself before in 
my research in directing master’s these and so on. 
They are, to me they’re a marvel. They tell a story by 
simply looking at them. You just can’t escape the conclu­
sion of polarization or nonpolarization from those 
diagrams. I’m not talking about dlution now; [34] I’m 
talking about polarization. From those diagrams. They’re 
just irrefutable. And this in, well, in my experience this is 
the first time in a case that the scatter diagrams have been 
employed and 1 think they’re a definite improvement.

THE COURT: You mean to your knowledge this is the 
first time they’ve been employed? A To my knowledge, 
that’s true. Regression analyses, no, Your Honor, but 
scatter diagrams, yes. This is a further refinement of that 
technique, and again if the old proverb, “Every picture 
tells a story,” means anything it means something in the 
case of those scatter diagrams and the phenomenon of 
racial polarization.

Q Dr. Cotrell, have you studied voter turnout in con­
nection with your investigation in Pensacola and Escam­
bia County? A Yes. I have looked at figures on voter 
turnout in the School Board and, well, the county and 
city.

Q All right, sir. Do you have any opinion as to the 
turnout of black voters in Escambia County and the City 
of Pensacola, and if so, would you express that? A Yes. 
Blacks tend to have a lower voter turnout in almost, well,



422

in all jurisdictions, city and county and school district, 
save in one instance, and that is when a black candidate is 
running and then the black turnout either equals in, say, 
select wards, predominantly white or black [35] wards, 
either equals or exceeds the white turnout. One interpreta­
tion, well, if you came into a situation that had no kind of 
a racial polarization in it, no kind of racial tinge in the 
electorate, well, you wouldn’t expect to find that. You 
wouldn’t expect to find uniformly blacks turning out equal 
to or better than another cognizable group; that is almost 
without exception. One thing, one explanation of that 
could be that blacks obviously strongly identify with black 
candidates who, at least interview sources say, I think it’s 
common sense tells us, they feel they can represent black 
interests. Certainly we have had testimony here to that ef­
fect. And that at least of the whites running, at least of the 
whites running that blacks in Escambia County and Pen­
sacola, judging the turnout stats, statistics, I’m sorry, feel 
that of those who ran they wouldn’t be that well 
represented. There wasn’t enough interest to turn out at a 
high rate for those whites running. We can conclude that. 
So in a sense I guess you could say that blacks, the in­
ference from this could be that blacks feel that the, as 
represented by white candidates who have run, that they’re 
not that encouraged or interested in participating in a 
system that apparently has, for them, has few rewards.

Q I see, sir. You earlier mentioned in connection with 
candidate recruitment or candidates offering themselves 
for office the discouragement factor. Does the [36] dis­
couragement factor apply in the context of voter turnout, 
is that similar to this phenomenon you’re discussing of the 
lesser black voting percentage when only white candidates 
are offering themselves? A Let’s go back to this, Mr. 
Menefee. I understand your question. Let’s go back to this



423

view that the voters are not as dumb as people would like 
to think. I don’t think that voters are that ignorant. It 
seems to me that when a body of citizens feel that their 
vote or their participation generally is not going to result 
in a gaining of their act of voting, their preference, their 
mandate, if you wish, and this occurs time and time again, 
and then built on this is a, blacks in the South and in the 
Southwest, Mexican-Americans too, you have some 
shadow of history affecting participation rates. With these 
two things combined it’s not unreasonable to find this, 
well, kind of ironical situation where blacks equal the 
turnout or better the turnout of whites when blacks run 
but then they appear to be, to have lower, at least the ap­
pearance of lower turnouts and so on, they appear to be 
indifferent or whatever to white candidates who are run­
ning; they appear to be indifferent in that sense to the 
system.

Q Okay, sir. A That’s not an unusual explanation to 
me.

Q Yes, sir. Dr. Cotrell, I think you’ve [37] touched 
on it briefly in describing the basis of your conclusion for 
the County Commission. Would you address in a broader 
sense the problem of candidate recruitment in the black 
community, if you’ve studied that. A Yes, I have. There 
have been, I believe, twenty-seven, twenty-seven or 
twenty-eight black candidates over the period basically 
1955 to 1977. I’ll give or take a black candidate there on 
the twenty-five or twenty-seven, during the period ’55 to 
’77. In all these jurisdictions. And there have been some 
approximately five hundred forty white candidates. Now, 
I’m not trying to get in any kind of, “The population basis 
is this for the blacks and therefore they ought to have that 
many people running.” That’s not what I’m talking about,



424

but I am talking about a reasonable assumption that when 
you have 33 percent of the population that is of one race 
and these people are citizens and have interests Ike any 
other citizens, demands and aspirations and hopes and so 
on like any other citizen, that you would, you could expect 
more people to run for office.

Q Okay, sir. A Now, that many out of five hundred 
thirty-eight over that period is just, well, it’s just not that 
impressive.

Q Okay, sir. A I would like to add one thing, Mr. 
Menefee, [38] if I might, to a previous question, and 
it’s simply something that I know this is an adversary pro­
ceeding but I feel it should be said. When I spoke of 
discouragement factor and I talked about peculiar situa­
tion of blacks, I think there is historical and some current 
basis for that, vis-a-vis blacks. But that is not to say that 
white citizens or brown citizens or red citizens or whatever 
kind of citizens, that is not to say that these, those citizens, 
don’t also experience some of the same frustrations and 
sometimes lack of reception and response and so on, as 
black citizens. But what we are speaking of here is a ques­
tion of degree.

Q Okay, sir, this frustration experienced by other 
citizens, let’s direct your attention to the white electorate. 
You’ve heard comment in the courtroom, I assume, from 
the witnesses and the bench about low voter turnout in 
elections. Is this consistent and in line with the point you 
just made? Is that part of the discouragement or apathy 
factor? A Well, if your question is does the futility, elec­
toral futility for blacks as expressed here and in interviews, 
as expressed by statistics in terms of recruitment of can­
didates, if that futility is a response to their view that they



425

couldn’t possibly win or it wouldn’t do much good to run, 
yes. But I want to make, I want to make this point. What’s 
at issue here is a system. The crossover votes, and 
[39] they occur and I’m happy they occur, I know there 
are a lot of other people who are happy that crossover 
votes occur, the crossover votes show that some people are 
voting apparently on bases other than race. But what is at 
issue here is a systemic or system effect. We’re talking 
about a peculiar situation, not that Pensacola or Escambia 
County is peculiar; I’m talking about the election system. 
The at-large structure has a tendency anyway to amplify 
the winning majority and if you place on that structure 
conclusive evidence of racially polarized voting and then 
add to it the factors we talked about, and we need not go 
back through it here, add to it this context where people 
are shut out, what you have is a systemic effect. It is the ef­
fect of a system and in my understanding that’s really what 
I was asked to research and that’s what these lawsuits are 
about.

Q Okay, thank you, Doctor. Dr. Cotrell, from your 
professional opinion and background would you address 
the question of the importance of having a black office­
holder. What are the various factors that enter into the 
signifance of blacks holding public office? A That’s to 
me a very important question. I think that the literature in 
political science would suggest there are two general things 
that an elected official can do. His or her presence, black, 
white, brown, red or whatever, has a, can have a symbolic 
effect in the electorate. Symbolic. [40] And of course 
what they do actually is also a function of their being in 
office, what they do in terms of citizen demands and so 
on, what they actually do. Well, let’s take the first portion 
first, the symbolic effects. Obviously it seems to me that 
it’s just plain, common sense that a black in office is a



426

symbolic, has symbolic meaning to a black community. 
There’s been much testimony here about the actual 
performance of two blacks, for example, who sat or are 
sitting on the City Council, but I don’t think anyone’s go­
ing to deny the symbolic effect.

Q Explain some more. What do you mean, symbolic? 
A Yes, I want to.

Q Who is it symbolic to? A When you interview 
people, interview older people, and you ask them, here 
and elsewhere, you ask them, “Why do you run for office, 
Mister,” it’s unimportant who, it’s another jurisdiction, 
another situation altogether, a sixty-three year old man 
who’d been a model citizen all of his life; he knew he could 
not win in that situation. It was impossible. It was im­
possible for a lot of reasons. He said, “I ran so that the 
younger people could see what it means to stand up and 
exercise your citizenship rights and, I think, obligation to 
seek to carry out your point of view at the hands of the 
electorate,” and so on. That’s one of the symbolic mean­
ings. A second one would be obviously, maybe not so ob­
viously, but blacks or whites, there is, there are cultural 
differences, and one of the symbolic effects has been 
shown in some instances to be that blacks would seek out 
other blacks for the demands, requests, grievances, initia­
tion of policies and so on, and of course, turning to actual 
effects, the actual benefits of being in office, well, I don’t, 
I don’t want to take that much time. You have a person on 
the inside making the decisions from the respective point 
of view of a community or a group in a community, carry­
ing out that point of view, making the decisions 
themselves. And also, I guess you turn the coin, you have 
someone on the inside, not on the outside feeling 
excluded.



427

Q Dr. Cotrell, backing up, I think one idea, you men­
tioned the symbolic representative serving the function of 
receiving requests. Do you mean beyond their actual 
jurisdiction, or where are you, I don’t understand; what 
do you mean, receiving requests? All officeholders receive 
requests. A Well, you know, the court is going to have 
to judge the testimony presented here but there was a 
witness yesterday who, this is not uncommon, who spoke 
of, a black witness, Mr. Hunter, 1 think it was, the Human 
Relations Commission member, who spoke about receiv­
ing black requests all over the city and all over, all over, 
and this [42] is not infrequent with a minority 
legislator, be it Council-person or School Board member 
or state legislator. There are cultural factors involved and 
in some instances language factors. I’m not suggesting that 
here but I am in other areas.

Q So the system of single member districts for exam­
ple, if one of the single member districts elected a black 
representative are you saying that blacks other than in that 
district would likely or possibly use that black represen­
tative as a funnel for their requests? Is that the type of 
situation? A Well, yes. I mean that’s obvious.

Q Okay, sir. A You don’t want to, you don’t want 
to take away from the symbolic effects of having someone 
who a citizen identifies with up there successful. That’s im­
portant. That’s important to make this system run.

* * * * *

[56] Q Doctor, let me ask you if you agree with a state­
ment. The statement is, “The real question when in­
vestigating whether black political strength is diluted 
>s [57] whether the racially polarized voting patterns



428

yield a large enough white vote for black candidates so 
that when added to black votes that amounts to an overall 
majority.” A If you would add the phrase, “Contex­
tually over time.” That is, that judgment is made over a 
period of time; if it’s not isolated to one election.

Q So in other words what we’re talking about is 
whether black candidates are elected? In your view that’s 
the essence of dilution? A No. These cases, Mr. Carr, 
are cases of voter preference and elections obviously, as I, 
my earlier testimony reflects, when you have a black 
elected to office you have a correspondence between the 
preference of black voters and if there’s racially polarized 
voting, and a number of white voters, and it’s not dilution. 
But winning an election alone is not the only question. The 
question is over time whether in a studied judgment voter 
preferences are submerged in a number of instances in the 
context of racially polarized voting.

Q I’m not sure I understand the difference, and back 
to my original statement, it seems like there’s a bit of in­
consistency there. I asked for your agreement as to 
whether it was true that the sine qua non of dilution is 
whether the racially polarized voting patterns yield a large 
enough white vote for black candidates that when added

[58] to the amount of black votes amounts to an 
overall majority. Isn’t that the same as electability? 
A Mr. Carr, I don’t want to play cat and mouse with you. 
What you’re saying is you put all that together and 
whether or not the person is elected. I mean if the black 
votes and enough white votes make a majority and it’s the 
majority system you’re talking about for election.

Q Okay. A And I said that election alone is an in­
dicator, of course; it has to be.



429

Q What else is there? A Well, my earlier testimony 
just reflected that. The question, “What else is there,” is 
the issue of whether or not the voter preferences over time 
have been diluted in the context of facially polarized 
voting and whether after a studied judgment over time you 
find that to be the case.

Q Well, then it’s enough, it’s sufficient to constitute 
dilution then if these three factors are present: one, an at- 
large electoral structure; two, the minority status of 
blacks; and, three, enough racially polarized voting so that 
blacks may not get elected over time? A Well, you left 
out all of the judgmental factors on dilution.

[59] Q Okay. Let me ask you then how you evaluate 
the question of the performance of the government, which 
bears certainly on whether or not preferences are sub­
merged over time.

THE COURT: His test of dilution did not take into 
effect government action.

MR. CARR: That’s what I’m trying to bring out, Your 
Honor.

THE COURT: To the extent it took in effect the system 
in force I guess, that’s right; that’s what you’re getting to.

MR. CARR: I think that’s exactly what I’m driving at.

THE COURT: Which would be an at-large system, as I 
understand. You go right ahead and ask him.

Q So in other words the responsiveness of the govern­
ment really doesn’t enter into your assessment at all? 
A Well, no, responsiveness or governmental perfor­
mance, as political scientists call it, is definitely a symptom



430

or a political effect or symptom of dilution. In other 
words, if I may - if I may?

Q Please. A If you conclude that the voting 
preferences [60] of a group are diluted over time it 
would still remain to be proved whether or not a system, 
whether or not the effect of that dilution was poor 
performance or poor responsiveness to needs of those peo­
ple whose voter preference had been diluted.

Q Well, if you had a government, let’s assume in the 
hypothetical you had a government that was responsive to 
the interests of black and white citizens alike. Could you 
then have dilution? Could you say that those black voters’ 
preferences were being submerged? A Oh, you could 
certainly say that black voter preferences were being 
submerged but I think you would say that the system 
generally, the administration, the entire system, was 
meeting demands of black people.

Q Thank you.

THE COURT: And you say that to that extent you 
could not say that there had been any dilution because 
regardless of who was there to legislate at least they were 
being represented and their needs being fulfilled? A To 
that extent, Your Honor.

THE COURT: That’s what I get. A To that extent. I 
do want to stick with this notion of political effect and 
symptoms.

THE COURT: I understand.



431

Q But the actual selection of the interviewees was done 
by the plaintiffs’ lawyers? A Well, the more I learned 
about the situation, for example, I requested to see initial­
ly black candidates, to see white public officials, white 
candidates and so on. For example, I requested to see 
Barney Burks after I knew who Barney Burks was, the 
Mayor.

Q But the initial list, if you will, you said twenty or 
twenty-five people, the initial list was prepared and 
selected by the plaintiffs’ lawyers? A Well, as I came 
over on several occasions to Pensacola and Escambia 
County and as I learned more about the situation I 
sometimes asked for additions to that list.

Q Okay. Now, when we broke for the noon recess we 
were talking about the inclusion in your analysis of 
responsiveness type information. We’re clear on what we 
mean by that, right, the performance of government itself, 
and I think I asked you whether it was true that respon­
siveness essentially was a relevant question for the arrival 
at your conclusion. A I said that I had not examined any 
of the data which would lead to conclusions on respon­
siveness. I [63] do teach a graduate seminar in govern­
mental performance.

Q So that must mean that responsiveness isn’t a 
material factor to you in that analysis. The material fac­
tors are as you’ve stated them, whether or not there is so 
much racially polarized voting that over a time blacks’ 
preferences, if you will, are submerged. A That’s 
correct.

Q Okay. Now, in examining that question of whether 
black preferences are submerged is a material factor to 
you whether or not black citizens’ votes have played an im­



432

portant role in deciding election contests even between two 
white candidates? A That can be an important con­
sideration, yes.

Q So for example if there were a number of races in 
which the white candidate’s victory margin in 
predominantly black precincts was greater than his overall 
margin that would be a material concern? A Well, that 
and a number of other factors, in order to arrive at the 
conclusion whether or not blacks were what you would 
call a swing vote.

Q Right. And looking at the data, what is your conclu­
sion in the facts of the City of Pensacola and the Escambia 
County electorate? A My conclusion is that blacks are 
not a swing [64] vote or pivot vote.

Q Did you examine a race that involved Mr. Deese and 
Mr. Albritton for the County Commission two years 
ago? A Well, I’m sure I saw the returns, yes.

Q You examined all returns, that is, all races for the 
last ten or fifteen years? A Yes.

Q And you found no evidence that blacks were a 
swing vote? A I perhaps should explain that there are a 
number of conditions to Professor James Clubok’s, 
C-L-U-B-O-K, I think it is, Clubok’s, category. Professor 
Clubok categorizes Southern cities different ways. 
Without looking at the utility of his categorizations you 
would want to set a number of conditions that would have 
to be met to launch into a swing vote situation and one 
would have to be a kind of a consciousness or knowledge 
of the bargaining relationship that the black community is 
aware of and speaks about and in fact probably has 
leaders who in fact do bargaining to decide races between 
blacks and whites, and although we’ve certainly heard



433

testimony that white candidates do in fact seek, a number 
of them seek black votes, the interview data and my 
understanding of the situation is that blacks do not view 
themselves nor could they be viewed as a [65] bargain­
ing group here in Pensacola city elections or in the county.

* * * * *

[84] MR. MENEFEE: I agree, Your Honor. The point 
is that in the field of social science when you’re studying 
demographic data to get “r” squares and regression 
analyses that are as extreme and as high as this it’s a very 
unusual phenomenon and that was the extent of it, the 
only question I have.

THE COURT: If you want to ask him how the “r” 
squares in this case, if that’s your purpose I’ll let you ask 
that question.

Q Dr. Cotrell, are these “r” squares and regression 
analyses in this, that you’ve seen in this litigation, how do 
they compare to regression analyses and “r” squares that 
you see in social science data? A They are the highest in 
terms of the independent variable of race that I have seen.

MR. MENEFEE: Thank you, sir. I have no questions.

THE COURT: Does that get you on your feet?

MR. CARR: I believe I have a few questions on recross 
directed just to that.

THE COURT: Well, you did open up new area there. 

RECROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. CARR:



434

Q Dr. Cotrell, is what you’re telling us that Pensacola, 
Escambia County, electorate is the worst you’ve ever 
seen? A Not at all. I’m telling you that -

TTHE COURT: Go ahead. A I’m simply saying that 
the “r” squares, the statistical measurements which we 
have talked about in this courtroom for the last few days, 
are the highest in the independent variable of race that I 
have seen.

Q And in other pieces of litigation in which you have 
testified you haven’t relied for your conclusion as to 
polarized voting on “r” square analyses, is that right? 
A Not all of them, no.

Q So for example in the Lufkin, Texas, case, David 
versus Garrison -

MR. MENEFEE: Your Honor, I object.

THE COURT: You led into this and asked for com­
parison. Go ahead.

Q One could identify there actually how many black 
voters turned out to vote and how many black, how many 
votes the black candidate got and the number was sixteen 
hundred and sixteen hundred three? A Yes, there you 
had a very small East Texas City and identification of 
black voters there and white voters was very difficult and 
it was a very, very different situation from Pensacola.

Q And you found that that situation was diluting of 
the black vote?

MR. MENEFEE: Your Honor, I object.

THE COURT: You’re going too far. I thought you
were asking, there were some cases you have testified there



435

was no racial polarization or rather you did not have suffi­
cient data to verify polarization, isn’t that correct? A All 
he asked, Your Honor, was regressions, and I haven’t used 
regressions in all these cases. Some of, well -

THE COURT: Well, did you use regression in the
Mobile case? A Yes, I did.

THE COURT: I thought you said that since there had 
been a lack of black candidates running there it was a dif­
ficult task. A Well, you know, it stands to reason, Your 
Honor, that is a different situation in terms of there were 
no black candidates running and the question there was a 
white candidate who was clearly identified with black in­
terests who was getting, well, it was a very different elec­
toral situation in the city.

THE COURT: And that of itself might account for a 
lower “r” two factor? A It could very well.

THE COURT: The fact this is the highest you’ve seen is 
not of itself of real significance, I assume, except that you 
think it establishes firmly racial polarization? That’s 
all? A That’s what I testified to earlier, Your Honor, 
and I thought I’d said that earlier.

Q And racial polarization does not in and of itself 
mean dilution? A That’s correct, Mr. Carr.

THE COURT: Now, that was covered about four
times. Thank you, Mr. Carr. I believe we’re finally going 
to let you go. Is that correct?

MR. MENEFEE: Judge, I wouldn’t risk another ques­
tion. We’ll be here all afternoon.

THE COURT: He’s excused from further attendance.

*  *  *  *  *



436

TESTIMONY OF JAMES J. REEVES 
[1014] CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. MENEFEE:

Q. Mr. Reeves, my name is Larry Menefee. I’m an at­
torney for the plaintiffs in this case. Going back, did you 
mention, I wasn’t able to take them all down. You men­
tioned some of the civic clubs you were active in. I know 
the Rotary. Which are some of the others, I believe, 
sir? A. Pensacola Jaycees.

Q. Any others? A. Rotary Club.
Q. Okay, sir. A. Chamber of Commerce.
Q. Okay, sir.

THE COURT: He had a list if you want to see it.

MR. CATON: Yes, sir. Would you like to see the list?

Q. Are there any others? Are those the primary 
ones? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Okay, sir, what church do you attend? [1015] A. 
St. Christopher’s Episcopal.

Q. Okay, sir. Mr. Reeves, is St. Christopher’s 
Episcopal Church predominantly black? A. No.

Q. What would be the racial composition? A. It 
would be heavily white.

Q. So it is predominantly white? A. Oh, yes, no 
doubt about it. There is a black Episcopal Church, as I 
recall, that maybe disbanded at one time and some of the 
members went into the church.

Q. Okay, sir. A. As you know, Episcopal Chur­
ches are a lot more rigid as far as ceremony than some of 
the other denominations.

Q. Yes, sir. Now, who is, is Mr. Barney Burks presi-



437

dent of the Chamber of Commerce at the present time? 
A. Yes.

Q. Are you familiar with the board of directors of the 
Chamber of Commerce? A. Not really, l mean if you 
asked me to name ten of them I couldn’t. 1 probably would 
know all of them.

Q. Do you know about how many are on, how many 
members of the board of directors there are, what 
number? [1016] A. What numbei of the board of direc­
tors? No, I do not.

Q. Approximately? A. No.

Q. What’s the name of the Rotary Club you’re a 
member of, please, sir? A. Gulf Breeze Rotary Club.

Q. Is it a predominantly white club? A. It is an all- 
white club but not because of —

Q. By custom? A. No, it’s because it primarily is 
in, it’s a brand new club but it would certainly admit black 
members if there were members who met the qualifica­
tions.

Q- I understand. So i t’s not by rule or 
regulation? A. It is white. All the members are white 
but any person who met the qualifications to be a member 
would be a member and would be welcome in my estima­
tion.

Q- All right, sir. Could you tell me very briefly what 
type of law practice you’re in? What sort of clients do you 
serve? A. I’m primarily in corporate, finance, type 
practice.

Q- All right, sir. A. Office practice.
* * * * * * * *



438

[1078] TESTIMONY OF HOLL1CE T. WILLIAMS

Q. And how long were you in office before you had to 
run for election? A. Approximately nine months.

Q. Let me ask you this, Councilman Williams. If you 
had not been appointed. Well, let’s ask about that first 
election. Let’s ask about that election. Could you tell us if 
you had any intentions of not running for election or did 
you always assume that you would when election time 
came in ’71, or what was that? A. Well, I did have my 
fears of running after I had gotten on but then I felt like I 
was comfortable in doing the job so then I felt like I could 
run. Now, I felt like it was going to be a very difficult task 
to do but I did and I won.

Q. Could you tell us. how many opponents did you 
have in that election? A. Two.

Q. Two, and what was the vote? A. Well, I carried 
practically all the precincts in the first primary. I don’t 
recall exactly how many it was but I won in the first 
primary.

Q. Would it be a fair assessment to say you lost two 
precincts? A. Two or three at the most.

[1079] Q. Do you recall that? A. Yes.
Q. And won all the rest of the precincts? A. Right.

Q. Tell us about your campaign. Did you feel that 
since a white council had appointed you that you didn’t 
have to campaign for white votes or what was your feeling
about it? A. No, on the contrary, I felt like 1 needed to
campaign as hard as ever or harder. In fact I feel that my 
campaign went probably harder in the white community 
than it did in the black. I did campaign all over but I did 
campaign very hard and did — excuse me.



439

Q. Excuse me. Go ahead, sir. A. Well, to be 
honest with you, I was reluctant, really, to run, because 1 
felt like I couldn’t carry the white vote.

Q. So what did you do in order to get that white 
vote? A. House to house.

Q. In the white areas? A. Yes.

Q. Such as what? East Pensacola Heights? A. Yes, 
I did go in East Pensacola Heights. I went in Cordova.

[1080] Q. Cordova Park? A. Most every area. I 
went all over the City of Pensacola, black and white.

Q. And did you go and knock on doors? A. I 
knocked on plenty of doors, yes.

Q. How about knocking on doors in the white com­
munity? Did you feel a little apprehensive about that? Had 
you ever done that before? A. No, not to that extent. 
Now, I was reluctant really to knock on white people’s 
doors to try to get in. I didn’t, I didn’t know how I would 
be accepted.

Q. But you did it anyway? A. I did it anyway.

Q. I guess the results speak for themselves. 
A. Well -

THE COURT: What kind of reception did you meet 
with, Mr. Williams, as you were going to those white 
houses?

A. Well, some, I was just like anything else, turned 
down. Others, I was well accepted. I probably was asked 
wore questions than the normal candidate would have 
been asked.

THE COURT: Did you have the same sort of reception 
in black areas, though? Some turned you down [1081] and 
others asked you questions?



440

A. Yes.

THE COURT: Was there any difference in the recep­
tion accorded you?

A. I was more at ease in going to the black ones but I 
did have some people to not vote for me. I was hand 
picked, they said.

Q. Some people said that?

A. Yes.
Q. Councilman Williams, looking back over the time 

that you were appointed first and then ran for election, do 
you think the fact that you were appointed — let’s say you 
were not appointed first. Let’s say you had run that cam­
paign before you were appointed for the city council. How 
do you think you would have done?

A. Well, honestly, prior to being appointed I did not 
ever dream of being in politics but I believe that Hollice 
Williams could have ran, had I been interested.

Q. Could have run or could have won?

A. I believe I could have won.

Q. You believe you could have won even though you 
hadn’t been appointed to the council first?

A. Hollice Williams, yes.

[1089] Q. What about in 1975? That was your other 
contested race. A. No, I don’t remember the exact 
names offhand. If they were called I could probably recall 
the names.

Q. Do you know if any of those opponents had ever 
run for public office before? A. I’m not aware.



441

Q. Okay, sir. A. At one time one of them was a 
supporter, I believe, of somebody who was either in the 
Senate or in the House of Representatives and had worked 
in politics before and I’m trying to think of his name but I 
can’t recall his name.

Q. He had been a supporter, you think? A. Well, 
he had worked with one of the senators or one of the 
representatives in his office.

Q. But had not actually been a candidate? A. Not 
to my knowledge.

Q. Okay, sir. Mr. Williams, did I understand you to 
say that you were, that you approached two members of 
the YMCA concerning the appointment to the city coun­
cil? A. Yes.

Q. One was Mr. Paulk and who was the other [1090] 
please? A Frenkel.

Q. Frenkel. Do you remember your deposition being 
taken in connection with this litigation on, I believe it was 
August 2nd, 1977? A. Uh-huh.

Q- I think my partner, Mr. Blacksher, conducted that 
deposition. A. Yes.

Q. I would like to read a question and answer from 
page ten of that deposition: Question, “You were ap­
proached by a member of the city council, is that what you 
mean?” Answer, “Right.” Question, “Which member was 
that?” Answer, “Paulk, W. J. Paulk.’ Did he approach you 
or did you approach him? A. No, I made the ap­
proach.

Q- You approached him? A. Yes. I said that and I 
was wrong.

Q- I see, sir. So what you said in your deposition was 
incorrect?



442

THE COURT: He said that that was wrong. He says 
that was wrong.

Q. I’m sorry. Mr. Williams, do you have an opinion 
whether or not the vote in Pensacola is, tends to polarize 
along racial lines for black and white candidates [1091] 
when they’re running for the same election? A. I have no 
opinion.

THE COURT: You have no opinion one way or the 
other? A. No, sir.

Q. Do you remember whether you had an opinion in 
August of 1977? A. No, I don’t.

Q. In that deposition Mr. Blacksher asked you, “Is 
there still some

MR. CATON: What page are you on, please sir?

Q. I’m sorry, sure, page 21.

MR. CATON: Thank you.
Q. Line 14. Mr. Blacksher asked you, “Is there still 

some racial polarization in your opinion?” Answer, “Yes.” 
So you had an opinion at that time.

THE COURT: Do you remember that statement, sir?

A. Yes, I remember that statement, sir.

THE COURT: Well, you had that opinion at that timg. 
That was the opinion you had at that time but you dont 
have it today?

A. If I was understanding the question, he was asking 
me at that time was there any racial problems needed to be 
corrected.

THE COURT: No, no. Read that thing again.
[1092] Q. Yes, sir. “Is there still some racial polariza­

tion in your opinion?” Answer, “Yes.”



443

MR. CATON: I think the way he clarified is he thought 
he meant problems at the deposition.

THE COURT: I tell you what, Mr. Caton, we’ll let him 
do the talking instead of you, don’t you think.

MR. CATON: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: All right, sir. Mr. Williams, you heard 
the question.

A. Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And it was the same question, so far as I 

can tell, that was asked you today.

A. Yes, sir, this is true. And I think when he used the 
word “polarization” I alluded to something else and wasn’t 
clear.

THE COURT: What did you think he meant by it to­
day?

A. Well, I thought maybe today he meant when he 
asked me an opinion whether or not that there was bloc 
voting, so to speak, as far as black and white is concerned.

THE COURT: But you didn’t understand that other 
question? A. To that extent.

THE COURT: All right, sir.
Q. Mr. Williams, would it help refresh your [1093] 

memory if I backed up over and read some of the earlier 
questions starting at the top of page 20. Question, “In 
your opinion or in your experience have you observed that 
when a black person is running for office in Pensacola or 
m the county that the vote tends to polarize along racial 
lines with the white voting fo the white candidates and the 
black in large measure voting for the black candidates?” 
Answer, “At one time that was true.” Question, “When 
you say at one time, give us the time you’re talking about.”



444

Answer, “I think at one time we had people who claimed 
they could deliver votes, both white and black, to the 
polls. It was being polarized then just the black and white 
candidates each to his own.” Question, “Are you talking 
about the time now when Mr. Taite was running?” 
Answer, “Yes, sometime during that time also, I imagine.” 
Question, “And there were folks who thought they could 
deliver the vote, either black votes or white votes?” 
Answer, “Right.” Question, “Were there ballots cir­
culated among the electorate, one among the black, one 
among the white?”

THE COURT: Mr. Menefee, let me interrupt you. 
You’re now talking about a period of time sometime prior 
to August, 1977, in your questions to him.

MR. MENEFEE: Yes, sir.

[1094] THE COURT: He limited it and said at one 
time there was, so so far you’re not really coming up with 
anything helpful to this question here.

MR. MENEFEE: Right, yes, sir, except that he conced­
ed there was a polarized vote.

THE COURT: It’s clear that in that deposition he was 
saying at one time there was a polarized vote. He also said 
that in this other one when he got there that he thought 
you meant something else. If you read the whole thing he 
might have been talking about the prior period. I think 
you’ve carried this far enough, Mr. Menefee.

MR. MENEFEE: May I try to bring it up to date, Your 
Honor?

THE COURT: Beg pardon?
MR. MENEFEE: May I try to bring it up to date?



445

THE COURT: If you want to ask some more questions.
Q. Mr. Williams, do you believe there is still some 

polarized vote today when a black candidate runs and 
white candidate runs? A. I have no opinion.

THE COURT: What did you say, Mr. Williams?

A. I have no opinion.

Q. Mr. Williams, on page 43 of your deposition, this 
is, let’s see, the question begins —

[1095] MR. CATON: Your Honor, if I could interrupt 
at this time, I really don’t know what the point is, whether 
Mr. Williams’ opinion would have any probative value 
anyway, but I think one thing, if I could, just this one 
other point, Your Honor, there’s been differences of opi­
nion between plaintiffs’ own witnesses as to what polariz­
ed voting and polarization means.

THE COURT: Mr. Caton, when we need some help 
from you in connection with his testimony I’ll let you 
know.

MR. CATON: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: We’re trying to go through a deposition 
and take statements to see about impeachment. I don’t 
want you interrupting with those kind of comments again 
during this period. Do you understand what I said?

MR. CATON: Your Honor, I —

THE COURT: If you did, you may sit down.
MR. CATON: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Do you have something else in there that 
you think — you know the rule on impeachment. I don’t 
want you reading things, misleading the man or anything 
else. If you have something there you believe is contrary to



446

the statement he has made today, you may read it. Other­
wise, don’t read it.

MR. MENEFEE: Your Honor, yes, I do have some-
[1096] thing that I think is contrary.

THE COURT: Read it out and let’s see what it is.

MR. MENEFEE: I will read the immediate question 
and answer and go back further, if necessary. “You mean 
that he was defeated because of the polarized vote to some 
extent?” Answer, “I can’t say it was polarized but it could 
have been, it still exists, period.”

THE COURT: Do you recall that statement, sir?
A. I don’t remember that. No, I don’t recall saying it.

MR. MENEFEE: I’ll be glad to back up.
THE COURT: Bring it up to him and let him look at it.

MR. MENEFEE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: This is on page 43 of this deposition?

MR. MENEFEE: Yes, sir, page 43.

THE COURT: What did you mean by that statement?

A. Well, 1 don’t know what, I don’t know why I said it 
still existed. I really don’t. I thought I was clearing myself 
up when I said I don’t know if it was polarized.

THE COURT: Well, it sums up to this, and we have 
spent a long time with it. You have said now you have no 
opinion respecting racial polarization in this city [1097] 
and county at the present time, and does that mean in pre­
sent elections you don’t know whether blacks vote for 
blacks as opposed to whites voting for whites?

A. That’s what I’m saying.
THE COURT: You don’t know about that today?



447

A. No, I don’t know that to be true,

THE COURT: Well, have there been any change in the 
situation so far as you can tell since you gave this deposi­
tion in August of last year?

A. Change in voting, people voting?
THE COURT: Any change in people’s voting habits 

where they vote by way of race or not?
A. Not to my knowledge.

THE COURT: Mr. Menefee, I think you might as well 
proceed, don’t you?

Q. Thank you. Mr. Williams, had you been politically 
involved prior to your appointment to the city council? 
A. If you mean politically involved, if you mean in coun­
cil, government, anything of this nature, no.

Q. Had you ever worked in any campaigns? 
A. Not just work in a campaign. People I liked, to help 
to get votes I would get out and ask my friends to vote for 
them, that nature, but not, say, work.

Q. Had you ever run for office before? [1098] A. No, 
sure hadn’t.

Q. I see. What was your — okay, sir. Mr. Williams, 
do you think that equal employment opportunity is an 
issue of concern in the black community? A. Will you 
repeat that so I understand what you’re saying?

Q. Yes, sir. Equal employment opportunity, is that an 
issue of special concern in the black community, to do 
away with job discrimination on the basis of that? 
A. I’m sure it is, yes.

Q. And what measures have you taken as a member of



448

the city council to alleviate any job discrimination in the 
City of Pensacola? A. One of the things 1 have just 
recently done was to send back the affirmative action pro­
gram to be reworked. This is one of the vehicles, I think, 
which will help in that area. Also just recently I asked that, 
concerning the Civil Service ruling and what have you that 
was being passed on, I tried to get that cleared up where it 
would be more equal for blacks to get their jobs by getting 
clarified the percentage of oral as well as written examina­
tion that would be taken in that particular situation.

Q. Mr. Williams, what about in the private sector of 
employment, that is, private industry, jobs [1099] and 
such, in the City of Pensacola? What efforts have you 
sponsored on the city council to improve employment op­
portunity or to provide equal employment opportunity for 
all citizens? A. I really don’t understand your question, 
how you’ve phrased it there. Give me an example, if you 
will.

Q. Well, any local industry here, maybe a local office 
supply business, for example. Have you sponsored any ef­
forts in the city council to enact maybe a local ordinance 
prohibiting job discrimination in employment, in 
businesses operated in the City of Pensacola? A. 1 
haven’t introduced anything of that nature to private in­
dustry. However, in private industry I have gone to in­
tercede for blacks who was applying for jobs to make it 
known that I felt that they should have a job because, they 
should have that job because they was qualified as anyone 
else. That’s on a one to one basis.

Q. Do you think the city council should enact such an 
ordinance locally? A. 1 don’t know whether it can or 
not.



449

Q. Yes, sir. You could consult the city attorney 
couldn’t you? A. Yes.

[1100] Q. You have access to Mr. Caton? A. Oh, 
yes.

Q. What about an ordinance dealing with fair housing 
in the private sector, that is, allowing blacks, prohibiting 
discrimination in the sale or rental of apartments and 
houses in the City of Pensacola? Have you considered 
that? A. Some oh, I suppose three or four years ago, I 
personally checked on an apartment house in West Pen­
sacola, East Pensacola Heights, to find out why blacks 
couldn’t take advantage of rentals in that particular area. I 
have not introduced anything like that to the council but 
these are the kinds of things I think sometimes on a one to 
one basis, individual basis, we as councilmen do.

Q. Okay, Mr. Williams, let’s see, you’ve been on the 
council eight years approximately now. Have you spon­
sored or nominated blacks to the various boards and com­
mittees of the city? A. In some cases, yes.

Q. And on approximately how many occasions is that, 
please, sir? A. It would be hard for me to say. 1 know 
every time an opportunity presented itself that I would try, 
if I deemed a black could fill that position, then I [1101] 
would bring him on in.

Q. With what success? A. I think I’ve had some 
degree of success. I haven’t been able to win them all but 
I’ve been able to get some in positions.

Q. Well, would you say 10 percent or 50 percent? 
A. At least.

Q. Fifty percent? A. No, I couldn’t say fifty. I’d 
say ten.



450

Q. Do you know many qualified black citizens who 
are willing to serve on civic boards and committees? 
A. If I understand the question, and I keep getting mixed 
up on your qualifications on different things, different 
people are qualified for different things.

Q. Yes, sir. A. Yes, sir, and I do think that we 
have a goodly number of black people in the area that can 
fill, qualify in certain positions, if the opportunity 
presents itself. Yes, I feel that.

Q. Why aren’t more of those black citizens serving on 
the various boards and committees? A. Because they 
haven’t been appointed.

Q. Sir? [1102] A. They just haven’t been appointed.

MR. MENEFEE: Okay, sir.
THE COURT: Well, were they considered for appoint­

ment?

A. Beg pardon? In some cases, yes.

Q. And were turned down?
A. Yes. Well, usually the council procedure is by vote 

and if a name is submitted, most all names are considered 
and in many cases some did get it and some didn’t.

THE COURT: There were some whites turned down 
also, I’m sure.

A. Yes.
THE COURT: Nonetheless it remains over the period 

you’ve been there —

A. Yes, sir.
THE COURT: A great many more whites were ap­

pointed than there were blacks.



451

A. Yes, sir.

MR. CATON: Thank you, Mr. Williams.

THE COURT: Cross examination? Or, no, you were on 
cross examination. Redirect?

MR. CATON: No further questions, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Williams, you’re excused from fur­
ther attendance. Thank you for being here.

********



452

TESTIMONY OF GOVERNOR REUBIN ASKEW

[1414] REUBIN ASKEW, called as witness by the 
defendants, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. CATON:

Q. Your Honor, I present to the Court Governor 
Reubin Askew. I don’t have time to go in all the 
Governor’s qualifications. As the Court is aware, he is cur­
rently Governor of the State of Florida and has been. This 
is his second term. Governor Askew, were you a member 
of the legislature in the year 1959? A. I was.

Q. And what position did you hold? A. I was a 
member of the House of Representatives from Escambia 
County.

Q. Escambia County? A. I was elected in the general 
election of November of 1958.

Q. This was your freshman term then? [1415] A. That 
is correct, my first session of the legislature.

Q. Governor, do you recall back in 1959 a bill or change 
that was presented to the delegation by either the 
city council or some other group, the gist of which was to 
change the method of electing the city councilmen? 
A. Yes, I do.

Q. At my request have you done a little bit of research 
in this field to try to refresh your recollection even 
more? A. Yes, 1 have, because, quite frankly, when 1 
first discussed it with a Dr. McGovern from the University 
of West Florida, w h o called me —

Q. He called you first? A. I believe he was the first 
one who called me. 1 discussed it and 1 didn’t, at that time



453

I really didn’t have that much independent recollection 
although I did remember the change and remembered 
some of the circumstances of the change. Since that time I 
have refreshed my memory. But my memory still is not 
substantial, independent of that which I’ve used to 
recollect.

Q. I see. And have you reviewed some newspaper ar­
ticles from that period? A. Yes, I have.

[1416] Q. Do you have any with you? A. I have 
one newspaper article because Dr. McGovern asked me 
the question of whether I was asked to introduce the 
legislation and my answer to him was that I was fairly con­
fident that it had to originate from the city. In my 
freshman session of the legislature we did not really have a 
system of local hearings that we later perfected when I 
became a state senator in 1962, and the way it was hand­
led, frankly, was a great deal more informal than the 
public hearings that I later established because I had a 
policy when I became senator that we would not take any 
action on anything unless a public body asked us in a 
public meeting for that. And refreshing my memory 
through the newspaper, the city council did vote 
unanimously for several changes and requests of the 1959 
session of the legislature, one of which was for this change 
in the election process, a meeting that took place, accord­
ing to this newspaper article, on April 30th, 1959, by Paul 
Jasper of the Pensacola News-Journal, and which it in­
dicated that, “The Pensacola City Council this morning 
unanimously endorsed proposed legislation which would 
create extensive changes in the operation of the city 
government.” One of the items in this news article is that 
they also approved a change in the city charter which 
would allow all [1417] candidates for the city council to 
run at-large instead of from the individual district and



454

to elect two councilmen from each district. That was the 
change and also the bill that was introduced became law 
without the Governor’s signature on June 20th, 1959, 
which would have indicated that it was filed and passed at 
the very end of the legislative session, which was not un­
common at that point. Almost all local legislation 
becomes law without the benefit of the signature of the 
Governor.

Q. Yes, sir. A. In Florida a piece of legislation, op­
posite the federal government, there’s no such thing as a 
pocket veto. There are so many days after which if the 
Governor fails to veto it, it automatically becomes law 
without his signature, and that is the process that is used in 
Florida.

Q. Yes, sir. Your Honor, at this time I would like to 
add this newspaper article dated April 30th, 1959, entitled 
“Legislature lifts ad valorem limit,” and it also discusses 
the request of the city council for this proposed legislation, 
I would like to add it to the end of defendants’ witness list 
or exhibit list.

THE COURT: Let him see it.
A. I’ll show you the relevant paragraph if you’ll [1418] 

come forward.
MR. BLACKSHER: I’m familiar with the article, Your 

Honor. I’m going to object to its introduction. We have 
seen this. It seems to us, however, that since we were 
unable to locate where this appeared on the minutes that 
the city either ought to be able to produce the actual 
minutes that indicate this was done or else explain why the 
newspaper was able to report it being done without it ap­
pearing on the minutes.



455

THE COURT: I’m letting it in evidence because he 
testified he refreshed his recollection by it as to the action 
taken and why he took action. The objection is overruled. 
I’ll let you impeach somebody on the city since it does say 
that. I told you you could get newspaper articles to im­
peach. I agree with you, since it said it, if you want to use 
it for impeachment you may do so.

A. May it please the Court, I don’t wish to offer 
anything more than what I’m asked, but at that given 
point in time there were no formal meetings for the discus­
sion of legislation. Therefore there would have been no 
minutes of the meeting.

THE COURT: Governor, he was talking about minutes 
of a city council meeting in which they took action.

A. No, that is exactly what I’m talking about, [1419] 
Your Honor. You would not have had meetings at that 
time because they were not official meetings of the city 
council. As I said, it was a rather informal process.

THE COURT: It was, as between you and them, but 
he’s making the assumption, and it’s a reasonable assump­
tion, that the city council before it came to you had gone 
over it and decided whether to ask the action be taken.

A. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: That is what he’s talking about.
A. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: There’s evidence here we find nothing in 
the council minutes respecting the action.

A. Well, the process we employed with local legisla- 
hon, there would have been no minutes at that given point 
•n time.



456

THE COURT: it was as between you and the legislative 
delegation and the city council.

A. No, the city council, because the council when they 
met on these did not meet formally in session to discuss 
local legislation. It was a very informal arrangement.

THE COURT: I see.

DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED 

BY MR. CATON:
[1420] Q. To the best of your knowledge no official 

minutes were taken of those types of meetings? A. No, 
sir. No, sir, not in the very beginning. It’s only been, 
frankly, until we were able to get the Sunshine Law, of 
which I was the sponsor, that you’ll find that they’ve 
become recorded. Prior to that time, in fact they could 
well have been talking to somebody in Child’s Cafe for all 
anyone would have known about the request.

Q. So this particular period of time was prior to the 
adoption of Chapter 286, the Sunshine Law? A. Thats 
correct, and all we would have done is sat around with 
reporters from the paper there but it would not have been 
an official meeting of the city council wherein they would 
have had minutes.

Q. Incidentally, speaking of reporters from the paper, 
was Mr. Moose Harling a reporter for the paper at that 
time? A. Yes, sir, Mr. Maurice Harling covered almost 
all of the city and county. Where it takes several reporters 
now he generally reported the city, county and the school 
board. At this particular meeting, however, he was cover­
ing the legislative session in 1959 and he was in 
Tallahassee. Therefore, I’m sure, is the reason why Mr. 
Paul Jasper covered it. He would probably know as much



457

[1421] about anyone, as anyone in the county about the 
workings of government at that time.

Q. And is he here today? A. He’s here today. In 
fact he was given the Jaycee Good Government Award for 
his contribution to government.

Q. Governor, you say the city council requested this 
change. Were there other organizations that were also in­
volved in the change from ward to at-large election? 
A. I think this originally emanated from a request of the 
Pensacola Chamber of Commerce. It essentially 
originated from them based upon their desire to, what 
they felt at that time, was to upgrade the quality of the 
representation on the council, and running at-large they 
felt would do this. Now, in addition to this the League of 
Women Voters, many organizations at that time, were 
strongly in favor of doing away with what was then 
thought to be, quote, ward politics. The League of 
Women Voters led the fight in this state to do away with 
election from single districts on both the county and 
school board. I hope, at the appropriate time, however, I 
would like to express myself, if it’s permissible, not now, 
what my feelings are now about that.

Q. Yes, sir, we understand that. Well, what [1422] 
would you consider to be the prime reason for this change, 
this 1959 change? A. The prime change was that they 
felt like that it would result in a better quality of represen­
tation than they felt they were presently getting from the 
system that they had, by having an election citywide as op­
posed to part of it being from districts.

Q. Did you agree with that at the time? A. I cer­
tainly did.

Q. And — A. I might also say that this was sub­



458

mitted to referendum of the people in which they ap­
proved it.

Q. Yes, sir. Do you recall the city council race in 1955 
between Mr. Charlie Taite and Admiral C. P. Mason? 
A. 1 have no recollection of that at all. I was in law 
school at the time, and frankly, until Dr. McGovern even 
discussed with me I couldn’t even remember that much 
about it.

Q. During the time this change was being discussed 
and submitted to the delegation did it ever come to your 
attention that race may be a factor in making this 
change? A. I think with some it may have been because 
I did distinctly recall, and this is without the necessity of 
[1423] independent recollection because it stuck out in 
my mind, that one city councilman made what I thought 
was a racial slur.

Q. One city councilman? A. Yes, sir, one city 
councilman.

Q. How about the other nine? A. I can not recall 
anything from anyone else of that nature. I frankly was 
offended by the remark and, frankly, had 1 thought that it 
was racially motivated I not only would not have in­
troduced it, I would have opposed it, because the 1959 ses­
sion of the legislature was a difficult session in which there 
was substantial racial legislation coming before it and the 
biggest fight in the 1959 session of the legislature was that 
the Senate had passed what I felt was some undesirable 
legislation which I characterized on the floor of the House 
in rather, very clear terms, and the fight was to keep the 
House from extending the session past the sixty days, 
which required a certain vote, in order to keep from con­
sidering the legislation that the Senate was passing. Gover



459

nor Leroy Collins was Governor at the time. He wanted to 
get us out of there so we would not pass any bad legisla­
tion. Former Circuit Judge Tomm Beasley, who was then 
Speaker of the House, came down from the rostrum and 
made a stirring speech that we go home and not stay there 
to [1424] consider what would have been legislation in 
my opinion that would have been very adverse to 
Florida, and as a freshman I had the privilege of leading 
the fight. I say that, Mr. Caton, so that you will put in 
context that from the time I started running in politics 
black people have supported me and from the time I 
started in politics there was always that undercurrent that 
was attempted to be inserted in my election. I was sensitive 
in that regard.
Q. Yes, sir. A. And had I felt at the time that that 
was the reason, as I say, not only would I not have in­
troduced it I would have opposed it, which would have 
killed it.
Q. Had you opposed it, it would not have passed. 
A. That is true, because there were two members of the 
legislature, excuse me, two members of the House. One 
was Mr. Stone, a dear friend of mine, who was an 
outstanding member of the House, who was killed in an 
automobile accident later, and Mr. Philip Beall, who was 
our senator, and nothing could pass when there’s only two 
if both didn’t agree, so I cast off that remark, frankly, as 
being the opinion of that one councilman.

Q. Talking about that one racial remark? A. That 
one councilman, because I think he was trying to decide 
which way he would be better off and I [1425] think he 
decided he might not be better off either way.

Q. Which councilman was that? A. I will answer, I 
would almost prefer not to, if the Court tells me, because 
his remark was of a racial nature.



460

Q. Well, the name has already been mentioned. 
A. Well, Mr. Red McCullough. What he said was that, 
“If this bill doesn’t pass we’re going to have a salt and pep­
per council.” That’s what he told me. And as I say, I 
remember that. It stood out in my mind and I don’t need 
to be independently recalled of that.

Q. But I believe you stated you disregarded that as his 
opinion. A. I was offended by his remark because 1 
thought it would be one of the better things that could 
happen at this time.

MR. CATON: That’s all I have, Your Honor.
MR. FLEMING: Your Honor, may I make just a pro­

cedural point prior to cross examination. At the 
Governor’s request I would like to note for the record the 
Governor is appearing here today voluntarily, not under 
compulsion of subpoena, and any subpoenas which have 
issued have been discharged at the Governor’s urging. Is 
that correct, Governor?

[1426] A. That is correct.
MR. FLEMING: Thank you, Governor.

THE COURT: You wish to ask a question?
MR. FLEMING: No, Your Honor, I have no questions.

THE COURT: Cross examination?

CROSS EXAMINATION 

BY MR. BLACKSHER:
Q. Governor Askew, I’m Jim Blacksher from Mobile 

representing the plaintiffs. Could you set the scene for us 
where this meeting took place where Red McCulloughs 
racial remark was made? Where was this? A. I dont 
really recall. It seems to me it was connected with some



461

type of rally somewhere. It may have been some, it seems 
to me it was outdoors but I would, I don’t really have an 
independent recollection of the context. I just have a 
recollection of the remark.

Q. Were the other council members present? A. I 
can not recollect who was present but I do know that in the 
back of my mind at the time I felt that I was appreciative 
that I did not think that was a consensus of the other 
members.

Q. Did everyone else present in your recollection stand 
up as one and disavow this racist remark? A. I can t 
even tell you who was present so I [1427] cant very well 
tell you whether they stood up and disavowed it, but I 
can’t recall anything other than the fact that I didn t re­
spond. I had gone, I had gone through a race, Mr, 
Blacksher, in which some of the people in this community 
had indicated they were going to burn a cross on my lawn. 
Some had made some very strong remarks toward me 
because I refused to support any type of legislation that 
would have closed the schools. So what I want to tell you, 
that was during the election in ’58, so that by the time 1959 
had come I had fully made my position clear, so as I recall 
I said nothing further about it except I didn’t appreciate 
the remark.

Q. Governor, I think you’ve firmly established what 
your feelings were when you introduced the bill and my 
line of questioning is directed at trying to determine what 
you knew of the motives of the council members who pro­
posed the change. A. I can not state what the motives 
categorically of any of the members of the council would 
have been. I can only give you the benefit of the way in 
which I’m sure I received it. And had that been what I 
thought was the motivation I simply would not have in­
troduced it. I realize that is not being completely respon­



462

sive, you know, to what you say, but I can’t really speak to 
what the [1428] motives of the other people may have 
been. There may have been some who were motivated in 
this direction.

Q. The exhibit that’s been introduced as city exhibit 1, 
the newspaper article, do I understand that Paul Jasper 
wrote this? Is that your understanding? A. Well, I only 
know that that is his name beside that story and I would 
assume that he covered the meeting.

Q. April 30, 1959. And you don’t know whether there 
are minutes that support what this paper says or 
not? A. No, sir, I do not. I would think there would 
not be because these discussions on local legislation at that 
time simply didn’t take place in a formal meeting.

Q. Can you recall whether after this April 30, 1959, 
event at which the county approved a change in the city 
charter which allowed candidates to run at-large rather 
than from individual districts, whether after that there was 
a meeting between you, Mr. Stone, the council members, 
regarding introducing the legislation? A. No, I’m sure 
there wouldn’t have been a meeting. It was a matter of me 
checking with Mr. Stone and me checking with Mr. Beall. 
It was done, frankly, at that time, very informally. But 
everybody would have signed off on the bill and I would, 
most of the legislation [1429] during that session was in­
troduced in the House. In fact I became the one who 
would wind up doing most of the work introducing the 
legislation.

Q. Okay, sir. I guess what I’m trying to establish, as 
best I can, was how was it communicated from the council 
members to the legislative delegation that there was a 
desire to make this change? A. 1 rather think 
somewhere along the line I was sent a letter from Churchill



463

Mellen, whoever was the city attorney at the time, inclos­
ing copies of it and asking us to introduce it. Mr. Mellen 
also used to come to the sessions and present the legisla­
tion but the important thing is that there was an 
understanding between all of us that we would support it 
and it had to have either a local advertisement thirty days 
prior to introduction or it had to be submitted to a referen­
dum. In this case it was submitted to a referendum and I 
would think that it was, it would have been communicated 
to us either in writing by letter or handed to us personally. 
But I went back after Dr. McGovern’s call, I went back 
and could not find any records of the 1959 session and I 
also asked members of my, the law firm I was formerly 
associated with, if they could find any trace of that 1959 
session. I have to tell you that we have nice offices over 
there now for members of the legislature. When I went 
there, your [1430] office was your desk on the floor. You 
had another desk upstairs you shared with other peo­
ple and it was frankly not a very good arrangement for 
keeping good records, and I’m sure it was communicated 
to me in some way.

Q. Governor, you mentioned Maurice Harling. 
A. Maurice Harling, H-A-R-L-I-N-G.

Q. As a reporter at that time, and is he now on your 
staff, do I understand? A. He has been with me since 
the time I have been Governor. And he worked in the 
News-Journal. He came, I believe, sometime in about 
1947 or ’48 and he’s covered every session of the legislature 
bom then up till the time I became Governor. He retired 
from the Pensacola News-Journal and I was fortunate 
enough to have the benefit of him to come to work with 
me.

Q. When did he retire from the News-Journal? 
A. Well, he retired at the same time that he came to work



464

for me, which would have been at the first of the year 
1971.

Q. All right, sir. So he was around here as a reporter 
in 1959? A. I can tell you that he probably knows more 
to the extent that he has independent recollection about 
government and the workings of government probably 
than anyone that I know.

[1431] Q. Well, with regard to the extent of Mr. 
Harling’s knowledge and the knowledge that people at the 
newspaper had about government, Governor Askew, have 
you seen the editorial that’s been introduced regarding this 
election and the statement in the editorial, which I’d better 
read since there’s some disagreement, Your Honor, about 
what exactly it says. I’m going to read you the editorial 
and get you to comment. A. I have read it, but, com­
pletely the editorial, and frankly I have absolutely no 
recollection of ever having seen the editorial.

Q. Well, that wasn’t going to be my question, so better 
let me read it.

THE COURT: You want to read him only that part you 
were talking about, I’m sure, not the whole editorial.

Q. Just the one paragraph, yes, sir. “This would be an 
advantageous change for at least two reasons. One reason 
is that small groups which might dominate one ward could 
not choose a councilman. Thus one ward might con­
ceivably elect a Negro councilman. Thus one ward might 
conceivably elect a negro councilman although the city as 
a whole would not. This probably is the prime reason 
behind the proposed change.” My question to you is based 
on what we’ve said, that isn’t it fair to say that the 
newspaper at that time with people like Mr. Harling work­
ing on it should have been in the know as far as what was 
going [1432] on behind the scenes politically on a local 
level?



465

A. And there may well be an explanation of why that 
was like it was. It’s really incongruous, you know, with 
Mr. Marion Gaines, who was the editor, you I 
think was one of the most outstanding editors any 
newspaper had, and Mr. Don Hogan, and of course you 
have to read the next paragraph with it. But I think you’ll 
also find that Mr. Marling in his explanation of the pros 
and cons on it never mentions anything like that. So that 
may at that time have been the feeling of one person on the 
News-Journal. I personally, as far as I’m concerned, that 
was not my recollection of it.

Q. Do you think that -  strike that. Governor, I think 
in fairness we both ought to take note of the differences in 
just the way people thought about racial matters in 1959 as 
opposed to the way we do now in terms of what would be 
considered then as active and vicious racism as opposed to 
now. Isn’t it possible that in those times, and I’m talking 
about 1959, there were still people who thought about 
good government and keeping blacks out of government 
in one and the same breath? A. Yes, unfortunately 
there are still some today.

Q. So that the person who wrote this editorial and the 
people on the editorial board who approved it were [1433] 
not necessarily raging racists, at least in the context of 
those times? a. Yes, sir, I think that’s a fair statement.

Q. In your opinion could an editorial like this, written 
at that time, have had any effect on the electorate in 
regards to how they would turn out for or against the 
referendum? A. I think that with that insertion in the 
editorial unquestionably it could have had an effect in ap­
pealing to those who would change it for that reason.

Q. Governor Askew -  A. That was in regard to 
the referendum, you know, as opposed to the request for 
the legislation.



466

THE COURT: Was that editorial before or after the 
referendum?

MR. BLACKSHER: I beg pardon?

A. The editorial, I think, was in September.

MR. BLACKSHER: It was on the eve of the referen­
dum.

THE COURT: On the eve of the referendum?

A. It was in September after such time as the legisla­
tion had been passed, Your Honor.

Q. Right. That was just before the vote was taken. 
Governor Askew, counsel for the city didn’t give you the 
[1434] opportunity to state your present position so I 
want to call to the Court’s attention that already in 
evidence as plaintiff’s 35 are two newspaper articles and 1 
would like to read pertinent sections from them and see if 
you still agree with this, Governor. One is December 6th, 
1976, Miami Herald: “Askew’s speech, however, made it 
clear that he wants a Constitutional Revision Commission 
to consider single-member districts for not only the 
legislature but local government as well ‘to insure greater 
representation to minorities.’ ” Would you still stand by 
that statement today, Governor?

A. Yes, sir, and if it meets with the approval of the 
Court I would like to amplify on it.

THE COURT: All right, sir. Go ahead, sir.
A. I want to say that when we look back twenty years 1 

don’t know why we permitted some of the things to ever 
take place that did take place, and I don’t say that in 
reference to the introduction of that law. At that time we 
were, I think, concerned about what often was called ward 
politics. I think that day is behind us. I think that we have



467

the benefit through television, from media, for people to 
make up their own minds and I have come to believe and 
believe very strongly that while single-member districting 
will not require necessarily fair representation among 
minorities, in my opinion it is the [1435] single most im­
portant step you can take to try to better insure represen­
tation by minorities. I believe until every multiple body 
that is elected such as your school board, your county 
commission, your city and your legislative districting, un­
til they are districted singularly where one person votes on 
one person from all of it so the people know who to hold 
accountable, pinpoint responsibility, and that the districts 
are fair and not gerrymandering, which often took place 
back then because districts sometimes were arranged to in­
sure that there would not be minority representation, and I 
personally feel that if black people in this case, other 
minorities, if they’re not afforded an opportunity through 
single-districting to speak and elect some of their own peo­
ple to the boards, which that government is supposed to 
represent them, I don’t know how we can say that govern­
ment is truly representative of all the people. In Florida we 
have a handful of black people in the legislature in spite of 
the fact we have a substantial percentage of our people who 
are black. We have a half a million Cuban-Americans in 
this state and yet Dade County has no Cuban-American. 
And I have just got to believe strongly, and I have said so, 
I was disappointed in the Constitutional Revision Com­
mission that they only districted legislative districts but 
that was at least a step in the [1436] right direction, 
because we need more minority representation on govern­
ment if government is supposed to fairly represent them 
and if we want young black people in particular to feel 
they’re part of the system. Then they have got to be given a 
chance in a fair way and not be outvoted with a larger ma­
jority. And I understand, I have tremendous respect for



468

the judge presiding in this Court and I know that he has to 
enforce the federal law as it’s set forth as opposed to doing 
what he may or may not like to do. I understand the con­
text under which this takes place. But I’ve been in govern­
ment twenty years. I think that we’ve come a long way. We 
nave a long way to go. It may not be the context of litiga­
tion that brings this about but it is going to happen and it’s 
going to happen one way or the other, for one reason 
because it’s right in terms of pinpointing responsibility and 
because it is fair.

MR. BLACKSHER: Okay, sir. Thank you.

THE COURT: Any redirect?

MR. CATON: Just one question, Your Honor.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. CATON:

Q. Governor, you’ve stated very eloquently the case 
for single-member districts. Is there not also a case for the 
at-large system as espoused by other people with [1437] 
qualifications maybe not as well as yours but similar? A. 
Mr. Caton, I can only state my views.

Q. Yes, sir. A. But I want to assure you that I am 
now finishing up twenty years. I’ve been privileged to serve 
as Governor of Florida longer consecutively than any per­
son in the history of this state and I’m here to tell you that 
when you force people all to be elected within the whole 
political constituency you are indirectly disenfranchising a 
iot of people from fair representation.

Q. Yes, sir, I understand your viewpoint. My question 
was, are there people that hold a different philosophy, 
legislators throughout the state? A. There are. There 
are many people who do hold this different view, but I am



469

gratified that just as I have come to appreciate the impor­
tance of this, I believe they will come to appreciate the im­
portance of it.

Q. Yes, sir. A. If they want a government that is 
supposed to be truly representative of all the people.

MR. CATON: Yes, sir. That’s all I have, and unless 
there’s some further questions I would like to thank the 
Governor for being here today, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Well, I think there will be no further 
questions, Mr. Blacksher. He’s had his chance at him. 
[1438] Governor, thank you for being here and you’re 
excused from further attendance. A. Thank you, sir.

* * * * * * * * *



470

TESTIMONY OF MARVIN G. BECK

[1462] MARVIN G. BECK, called as a witness by the 
defendants, being first duly sworn, [1463] testified as 
follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION 
BY MR. LOTT:

Q. Your Honor, this is Marvin G. Beck. He’s present­
ly a county commissioner on the Board of County Com­
missioners for Escambia County Florida. He’s chairman 
of the Board of County Commissioners for a one year a 
term which expires in November as far as chairmanship is 
concerned. He’s a lifelong resident of Escambia County, 
His age is forty-five, residence address 1264 Whipporwill, 
Cantonment. Formerly athletic director and basketball 
coach at the University of West Florida and formerly 
teacher at Pensacola High School.

THE COURT: He was elected when?
MR. LOTT: Nineteen seventy-six.
THE COURT: For the record we need to ask him to 

verify that on the record. *
Q. Mr. Beck, are the statements I just made about you 

true and correct? A. Yes, they are.
Q. Mr. Beck, you were first elected to the Board of 

County Commissioners in 1976. When was the first time 
you ran for countywide political office? A. This was 
the first time I’d entered into politics.

[1464] Q. And what party affiliation did you have 
when you ran? A. Democratic.

Q. All right, did you participate in the Democratic 
Primary in September of 1976? A. Yes, I did.



471

Q. Who were your o p p o n en ts  in th a t 
election? A. The incumbent was Mr. Sam Armour. 
Other members in the race were Mr. Clarence Gulsby and 
Mr. Harold Brown and myself.

Q. Okay, during that campaign what were the issues 
that you campaigned on and that any of the other can­
didates addressed as far as the county is 
concerned? A. I think the basic issue that I tried to put 
forth is accessibility of a county commissioner. I found 
that the incumbent was not accessible to the people and 
this is a big point that I tried to put forth in my campaign, 
that I would be accessible, I would have an office in the 
Court House and I would be there whenever people 
needed me and wanted to reach me.

Q. All right, as a result of the primary was there a 
runoff? A. Yes, there was a runoff.

Q. Who were the candidates in the runoff? A. It 
was Mr. Armour and myself.

[1465] Q. A nd th e re a f te r , the  ru n o ff  
results? A. Of course I won the election and there was 
not a Republican opponent.

Q. No Republican opposition? A. No Sir.

Q. In the general election in November. Okay. Would 
you describe in what areas you campaigned for the black 
votes in Escambia County. A. Well, as you know, the 
rallies were set up in all different areas of the city and of 
the county, and of course I attended all of the rallies that 
were sponsored by the Democratic Committee. In other 
areas I talked to a group of black ministers out in the 
Ensley area at a church who represented a large area of the 
city and the county. That was on the western side of 
Ensley, I guess you might say. And in the Cantonment 
area at the recreation center in that area. Also on the



472

eastern side up in the Century area and plus down in the 
southern part of District Five and the eastern part of that 
district in the Ensley area too.

Q. All right, what kind of rallies or gatherings did you 
address during your campaign? A. As I said,, these 
were basically scheduled rallies, Democratic rallies 
throughout the county that we, that all the candidates, you 
know, had the privilege and [1466] opportunity to speak at 
these rallies.

Q. Were some of the rallies produced predominantly 
for the benefit of black voters? A. Fm not sure that 
they were for predominantly black voters, just the location 
of them. In other words Pensacola High School stadium is 
an area that is there. It’s not specifically for a black sec­
tion.

Q. All right. Do you consider the black vote to be an 
important factor in the success of your election as county 
commissioner? A. I certainly do.

Q. How so? A. Well, I consider all votes as being 
important in getting elected and of course this is true of 
black and white. Anyone that, you know, is eligible to 
vote that I can represent is very important.

Q. Did you have any black citizens assist you in your 
campaign efforts? A. Yes, I did have some that 
assisted me. First of all I might say that I really did not 
have a group, an organization that some people might 
have. Basically it was myself, my wife and my children, 
and I had a sister and brother-in-law that basically put 
forth my campaign efforts. And I did have some friends m 
the black community that did help to pass out literature 
and to speak to groups [1467] for me.

Q. Who were those persons, if you can recall some of 
them? A. I had Mr. Elmore Standberry in the Canton­



473

ment area who works for St. Regis. He helped in that area, 
and Mr. Lawrence Green in the Ensley area. Mr. Cleve 
McWilliams, who is with the school system. Esther 
Williams, Marion Hargraves. These are some of the ones 
that 1 can think of off the top of my head.

Q. You’re presently the county commissioner in 
District Five and that’s a residency district in the county. 
Would you describe briefly what the district boundaries 
are. A. Basically it’s from the Interstate north to the 
eastern boundary of the Escambia County River to the 
western boundary of Perdido River all the way to the 
Alabama line, the western boundary and northern boun­
dary.

Q. Would you briefly describe for the Court the func­
tions of the residency district as far as the county commis­
sion governing its territory is concerned. In other words 
what effect does the fact that you represent or you’re 
elected from a residence district have on your interests in 
the county? A. I don’t exactly know exactly what you 
mean.

[1468] Q. Well, you come from a residence district, 
District Five, and that’s where your residence is located. 
What areas of special interest come to you as a county 
commissioner from District Five as opposed to all over the 
county? A. Well, I would say the main concern in 
District Five would be the roads, the system in that area. 
As you know or may not know, the road paving formula 
was based on 20 percent in each district, and of course 
District Five, which is my district, has over three hundred 
miles of unpaved roads. This is 77 percent of the unpaved 
roads in the county. So I think this was a major problem 
of the people living in that district. Of course it is a rural 
area in the northern part of it. Of course the southern part 
°f that district is a district that’s probably increasing more



474

rapidly than any other section of the county because most 
of the people are moving out in that direction.

Q. All right, as far as road paving is concerned you 
mentioned the 20 percent allocation of road paving funds 
to District Five. Is that presently the situation in the coun­
ty commission? A. No, I was able to convince or per­
suade the other commissioners that it was really not fair to 
the people in District Five, where you had 77 percent of 
the [1469] unpaved roads, to only receive 20 percent of 
the money, and this had been the case I don’t know how 
long, but this is one reason that we had so many problems 
in District Five because whenever you have 20 percent of 
the money and 77 percent of the roads that need paving, it 
developed over a long period of time and you have a pro­
blem. I was able to convince the other commissioners with 
the help of the constituents in that group, I think, to 
change that formula. I now receive 39 percent of the road 
paving money, in road paving budget money for District 
Five. Last year, my first year on the board, we had a total 
of like three hundred twenty-two thousand dollars for the 
entire county budget. That was based on 20 percent per 
district, which amounted to about sixty-five thousand 
dollars per district. This year we have about 1.4 million 
dollars in our road paving budget and my budget for 
District Five is like five hundred twenty-two thousand 
dollars. So it has, we have more money in the budget this 
year and we are also, I’m receiving more money in District 
Five, which we’re able to get a lot more done in that area.

Q. What argument did you use to persuade the other 
county commissioners to allocate additional funds to 
you? A. Well, when 1 first started, I tried to convince 
them that I needed this money based on just figures of be­
ing [1470] 77 percent of the unpaved roads but I didnt
get anywhere. I was voted down four to one. But then I



475

kept up my work and every time I would go into the 
district I would tell the people that were talking to me 
about road problems and needing roads paved that, I 
would tell them that’s, “Well, I agree with you but you’ve 
got to help me convince those other commissioners that 
you vote on those people just like you do me,” and I think 
this, you know, had a help in convincing them that they 
should change that formula.

Q. Okay, since you’ve been a county commissioner 
have there been substantial road paving efforts made in 
District Five? A. Since I’ve been a commissioner?

Q. Yes, sir. A. Yes, from the amount of money we 
have turned it around, like I said. We had sixty-five thou­
sand dollars which was left from previous administration, 
up to five hundred twenty-two thousand dollars. So you 
see it’s a considerable amount going into District Five.

Q. All right, sir. In making your determination of 
what roads were to be paved as a result of this additional 
money what kind of criteria did you use to determine what 
roads would be paved? A. Well, as you know, I have a 
very large area [1471] that I represent. It’s from the east 
side to west side, which is approximately twenty-five 
miles, and it’s approximately forty-five miles from north 
to south. And my main concern is trying to spread this out 
as much as I possibly could in all areas to make sure that 
we could try to provide something for as many people as I 
possibly could. The other point was that the volume of 
traffic on the roads and also, you know, the need, the 
problem areas where we had more complaints. This would 
be one of the criteria. If we had, you know, whenever it 
comes a rain or something we have fifty or seventy-five 
calls in a particular area, then of course, naturally, I’m go- 
m8 to look at that area. But basically it was based on



476

volume of traffic, trying to spread out, you know, 
geographic location and the need, the severity of the prob­
lem.

Q. Would the race of the person complaining about a 
road problem have any bearing on your decision to 
allocate money for the paving of the road? A. No, I 
think you can look at the list of roads that 1 have on my 
paving list and it would verify that.

Q. All right, sir, from that paving list would there be 
roads that are in predominantly black neighborhoods or 
black areas or that serve predominantly black people in

[1472] your district? A. Yes, that is true.

Q. Could you enumerate some of those roads and ex­
plain how they were chosen? A. Well, we have a prime 
example, would be Quintette Road and Welcome Circle, is 
a predominantly black section. Quintette Road is a road 
that runs from Old Highway S-95A over to 29. it’s what 
we call a collector road and this is basically what I tried to 
spend my money on paving at this time because we did not 
have enough money to get to all the requests that I had. 1 
had as of last week, I had eighty-five petitions for road 
paving. You know, this is in addition to the ones that I 
have on my list. And of course I received a couple in last 
Thursday’s meeting. But in the Cantonment area, the 
streets of Booker, Lewis, these areas are predominantly 
black that are being resurfaced and blacktopped in that 
area.

Q. Mr. Beck, let me ask you a question at this point. 
There was testimony earlier concerning the number of 
streets paved in black areas in Cantonment. Would you 
say that more than two streets in the Cantonment area are 
paved or under paving contract at the present 
time? A. Yes, 1 would say it would be.



477

Q. About how many more? Do you have any 
idea? [1473] A. Well, you say completed at this time 
or to be paved?

Q. Or under contract to be paved?
MR. BLACKSHER: Objection, Your Honor. I think to 

ask him, no, that’s all right. I’ll check it on cross examina­
tion.

THE COURT: Can you answer that question, Mr. 
Beck? Do you know the status of those roads out there 
now?

A. As of, no, I haven’t been in that area in the last 
week but they’re under contract to be paved.

MR. LOTT: We’ll have some other testimony on the 
same thing, Judge.

THE COURT: I believe you all can get together and 
more or less stipulate on it. As I understand, a contract 
has been let and the contract is underway and it will take 
care of most of the streets in the Cantonment area. Isn’t 
that the testimony I’ve heard so far?

MR. LOTT: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Go ahead.

Q- Are there areas in your district that are 
predominantly white that have unpaved roads and that 
there have been requests for road paving? A. Oh, yes. I 
have a large number.

Q- Are there requests received from white persons by 
you for paving in District Five that will not be responded 
to immediately and black areas that will receive paving in 
advance of the rest of those white areas?



478

MR. BLACKSHER: Objection to counsel leading the 
witness. I think if we could —

THE COURT: You were leading the witness, Mr. Lott. 
Watch your questions.

Q. Yes. sir, Your Honor. I’m trying to facilitate mov­
ing the witness along rather than trying to drag it out but 
I’ll try not to suggest the answer to the witness. Mr. Beck, 
would you say the allocation of road paving in District 
Five as a result of your actions predominantly benefits 
whites disproportionately over blacks?

A. No, as I pointed out, I’ve tried to go to the 
geographic locations and trying to spread it out in the 
large district that I had and trying to, you know, make it 
as far, as much as possible to all the citizens. And I do not 
feel that I have favored, you know, white over black or 
black over white.

Q. Do you feel that the supply of paving and other ser­
vices that you have control over in District Five to 
predominantly black areas is an important element in your 
responsibility to the constituency that elected you?

[1475] A. Yes, I do. For example, the area in 
Quintette, Welcome Circle, a citizen, Mr. Elmore Stand- 
berry, Mr. Gray, I went with those people and we rode 
over those roads right after I was elected and I felt —

THE COURT: Mr. Beck, do I understand that the way 
the county commission operates is that the individual 
county commissioners go into the wards from which they 
were resident and they decide the road projects? You dont 
rely on your commission staff for that?

A. Yes, sir, we do. We have engineering staff that has 
a list of the roads and the problem areas.



479

THE COURT: But then each individual commissioner 
in a particular residence district decides what’s going to be 
paved and what isn’t? Is that what you’re telling me?

A. Based on the volume of traffic and general loca­
tion.

THE COURT: Why do you have an administrative 
staff, engineer and county manager? Aren’t you a policy­
making body?

A. Yes, sir, we have.
THE COURT: Yet you take that policy where each in­

dividual one of you decides which roads are going to be 
put in the residence district from which you come. Is 
that [1476] what you’re doing in the commission?

A. Yes, sir, the road paving money is divided up in 
each district and you have the authority to go with 
engineering and with staff to determine the basic need for 
the final decision —

THE COURT: You don’t have an overall policy where 
the money goes where it’s good for it, regardless of where 
it needs to go?

A. This is always, Your Honor, you work out with 
engineering and this is part of your decision.

THE COURT: In other words the commission serves as 
more than a policy-making body; it involves itself in the 
day-to-day operations of the county to such extent that 
each of you in a residence district from which elected may 
go down and ride out there and say, “We’re going to pave 
this road and not that one.” That’s the way you run it?

A. As far as road paving is concerned, this is true.

THE COURT: All right.



480

DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED 
BY MR. LOTT:

Q. Mr. Beck, in connection with drainage problems, 
and you can address your question, your answer to ques­
tions, on a countywide basis, are you familiar with 
drainage problems [1477] in black areas that are 
predominantly black neighborhoods that are under con­
struction or improvement by the Board of County Com­
missioners? A. Well, we’ve already mentioned the area 
in Cantonment as one that’s under construction.

Q. Are you aware of areas in predominantly white 
neighborhoods where more severe problems exist as far as 
drainage is concerned but which are not receiving atten­
tion from the county commission? A. Yes, there’s an 
area that’s south of the Nine Mile Road and west of 
Chemstrand Road, through that area, that’s been a con­
tinuous drainage problem that’s connected, you know, 
with state and county problems, that we have not been 
able to solve at this time. We are hopeful we’ll be able to 
work something out with the state and so the county can 
solve that problem.

Q. All right. I would like to direct your attention fora 
few moments to the proposed charter that was recom­
mended by the Charter Committee appointed by the 
Board of County Commissioners to study charter govern­
ment and which committee made a recommendation to the 
Board of County Commissioners concerning single­
member districts. Are you familiar with the recommenda­
tion of that committee to the Board of County Commis­
sioners concerning single-member county commission 
districts? [1478] A. Yes, I am.

Q. All right, what was the decision of the Board of 
County Commissioners with respect to that recommenda­



481

tion? A. We voted, 1 think, to recommend countywide 
elections and from my point of view I think I just pointed 
out the example that I used to be able to get the road pav­
ing formula changed as my reasoning why that I felt like 
that the countywide election is better than the district elec­
tion because I felt like that is it went to a district election 
that the other commissioners would have no need to share 
or change the formula. They could set it up at 20 percent 
in each district and we’d be right back where we were and 
not getting anything done for the people in the north end 
of the county. And that’s the reason that I voted, 1 felt like 
that the countywide election would benefit the people in 
that area countywide rather than trying to go to a district 
and be isolated, so to speak.

Q. Okay. Under the present at-large election system 
do you receive complaints from citizens and requests for 
service from areas outside your own residency 
district? A. Yes, I do.

Q. Do you issue work requests for those kind of re­
quests? [1479] A. Yes, I have issued work requests 
for, in all districts of the county.

Q. Would you explain briefly for the Court what a 
work request means? A. This might be a particular 
problem, it might be a driveway that’s washed out or 
something in a district and someone calls my office and a 
lot of times we can go ahead and issue a work request for 
the county road department to go and take care of this 
driveway. This is issued through my office. It doesn’t 
necessarily have to be in my district. I have issued them in 
all districts for this type —

THE COURT: You don’t consult anybody but yourself 
on that?

A. No, sir.



482

THE COURT: And it goes to your county engineer?

A. Goes to our county engineering.

THE COURT: It’s a request but he sort of treats it like a 
command to go do something and does it?

A. Well, they check out whether or not it needs to be 
done. They’ll send an inspector and see if it is a problem, 
and of course the inspector will make that report to the 
engineering department and it’s related to the road depart­
ment and they take care of it.

THE COURT: And that’s a day to day operation you’re 
[1480] involved in? Now, you do this as chairman or 
each commissioner does this?

A. Well, I would think that each commissioner.
THE COURT: Each commissioner can issue a work re­

quest?

A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Q. Commissioner Beck, do you feel that the needs of 

black constituents could safely be ignored now that you’ve 
been elected and you could act with impunity towards re­
quests from black citizens for county services under your 
control? A. Excuse me, I didn’t hear all your question.

Q. I’m sorry. Do you fell that you could safely ignore 
the needs of your black constituents or black persons in 
Escambia County and still get reelected or act with impu­
nity towards those requests without fear of action at the 
ballot box by those people? A. No, I don’t. I don’t 
think you can neglect any segment of the county and get 
reelected. I think, you know, accessibility and what you do 
while you’re there and how accessible you are and how you 
represent the people, I think, you know, you’ve got to do 
that to get reelected.



483

Q. Do you feel that you have adequately represented 
and that you do adequately represent the interests of black 
citizens of Escambia County? [1481] A. I certainly 
do. I feel that I represent all the citizens of Escambia 
County.

MR. LOTT: No further questions.
THE COURT: Cross examination?

CROSS EXAMINATION 

BY MR. BLACKSHER:
Q. Mr. Beck, did anybody ever accuse you of not hav­

ing good sense in giving up a job as basketball coach to go 
into politics?

A. Yes, sir, I’ve been accused of that.
THE COURT: I’m not sure that’s exactly relevant. It 

may be Mr. Beck himself has wondered about it from time 
to time. Is that right?

A. Yes, Your Honor, you’re right.
THE COURT: Go ahead, Counselor.
Q. In your campaign for county commission, let’s say 

in the Democratic Primary since you were unopposed in 
the general election, how much did you spend on your 
campaign? A. I think it was approximately fourteen 
thousand dollars.

Q. How would you compare that with the amount 
spent by your opponents? A. I really don’t know. I 
haven’t looked at the record on what they spent on the 
campaign.

[1482] Q. When did you say the Quintette Road and 
Welcome Circle were paved? A. It’s under contract to 
he paved. They have the base material down now. It’s 
waiting for the final cap on it.



484

Q. Isn’t it a fact that those contracts were let after this 
law suit was filed? A. I’m not sure when the contract 
was let for the road paving.

Q. Well, were they let in ’77 or in ’78? A. They 
were let in ’77.

Q. And what part of ’77? A. Well, our budget year 
is from October to October and when they were finally ap­
proved, I don’t know.

Q. What about the Cantonment paving and drainage 
work? When was that let? A. I’m not sure on the date 
that the Cantonment project was let. But I know it’s been 
underway for some time. We’ve had a weather problem in 
the area.

Q. Well, do I take “some time” to mean several weeks 
or several months or several years? A. Several months.

Q. Several months? A. Yes.
Q. Now, is there some federal money going into

[1483] the Cantonment project? A. Yes.

Q. Isn’t it a fact that you’ve gotten some community 
development money to do this project in Cantonment? 
A. Yes, this is true.

Q. And there are certain guidelines pursuant to the 
feds on exactly what areas you can use this community 
development money in, right? A. This is true.

Q. And when you use community development money 
it has to be, all of the entire cost of the project has to be 
paid for by the community development moneys, is that 
correct? A. Yes, this is true.

Q. This area that was south of Nine Mile Road and 
west of Chemstrand Road that Mr. Lott referred you to



485

which is predominantly white, did you say it was in worse 
shape than Cantonment? A. I would say it would equal 
the Cantonment area, yes.

Q. But it’s not being fixed? A. No, sir.

Q. Okay, are you saying that the predominantly black 
areas in Cantonment are getting preferential treatment
[1484] over this predominantly white area? A. No, I 
would not. You know, this is just a matter of money 
again, what you can do.

Q. Was the community development money available 
for this particular location west of Chemstrand 
Road? A. No, it was not.

Q. Did you say that you were on the committee that 
was appointed by the county commission to study charter 
government? A. No, I don’t think I said that.

Q. All right, I misunderstood you. So you didn’t have 
an opportunity, I take it, to voice your opinion on district 
elections as opposed to at-large elections until it came up 
for a vote on it? A. We had public hearings as a body, 
the commission group, the county commission, held eight, 
ten, I don’t know exactly how many public hearings. But 
basically we were there to hear the input from the citizens 
and not to voice our opinion one way or another on the 
charter government.

Q. Okay, I want to go into the reason you gave the 
Court why you voted for at-large elections and striking 
from the committee’s proposal the single-member district 
aspect of the charter proposal. As I understand it, it’s your 
contention that if you had to run from a district [1485] 
you would not be able to deal with the other commis­
sioners and make them be fair to the constituents in your 
district as regards paving. Is that what you



486

mean? A. Well, I think it would help, you know, to 
know that each commissioner has to rely on all the citizens 
of Escambia County to be reelected. Yes, I think this 
would be the assumption.

Q. Have you done any, have you got any personal 
background to make this judgment or have you done any 
studies to make this judgment? A. No, sir, I was just 
going on the record of what it has been for a number of 
years. It’s been 20 percent of the money in each district 
and it’s now 39 percent in District Five and a lower number 
in some of the other districts.

THE COURT: It’s just been an arbitrary 20 percent for 
a number of years? A. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Well, now that means, Mr. Beck, in a 
way, what the commission was doing while you talk about 
representing each other generally, and that’s what they’re 
supposed to do under the law, as I understand it, 
nonetheless they were just arbitrarily giving somebody in 
the district, weren’t they; they were in effect representing a 
district.

A. Also the other side of that, the commissioners 
[ 1486] are able to use money in other districts rather than 
their own district.

THE COURT: Well, I know, but I thought you said for 
a number of years until you were able to get some more 
money it had been 20 percent arbitrarily in each district.

A. Basically I think this is the way it has been.

THE COURT: I see.

A. I’m sure how many years it has been based on 20 
percent per district.

THE COURT: I was just suggesting to you and I was



487

trying to understand this, under the Florida law you’re 
supposed to be a policy-making body, are you not, and 
you represent everybody in the county.

A. Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And you’re elected from a resident 

district so you’ll have knowledge of the particular district 
to contribute to the commission but then how can you say 
you’re fulfilling that function and why aren’t you in effect 
really treating it as single-member districts when you, in­
stead of doing all that, each one of you takes a district or 
he’s sort of responsible for that district and gets all the 
money he can for that district and he goes down and 
makes decision where the money is going to be [1487] 
spent instead of turning it over to the administrative, your 
manager, your engineer, and letting them set the details of 
it. I don’t understand that approach. A. Well, we get 
that, your Honor, we get the list from our engineering 
department on, you know, all the roads that are brought 
up for discussion for pavement and this is where the deci­
sion is made, you know, from the staff that brings the list 
to us.

THE COURT: But then you go into a district and make 
final decision, each of you individually?

A. Yes.
THE COURT: All right, go ahead, Counselor.

CROSS EXAMINATION RESUMED 

BY MR. BLACKSHER:
Q. Mr. Beck, I’m still puzzled by the last answer you 

gave me, which indicated that you thought that the way, 
well, that somehow the situation had been allowed to 
develop whereby District Five ended up with the most un­



488

paved roads, but isn’t it a fact that you had at-large elec­
tions for the county commission now in this county for the 
last twenty-four years? A. Well, the thing about it, I 
think the districts were set because of the population in 
each district and not, you know, based on roads in each 
district. This is they way —

[1488] Q. Do you understand we’re trying to get at 
your reasoning on why you think the at-large system is bet­
ter than the district system? A. Well, as I pointed out, I 
feel that being able to have the people in my district tell the 
other commissioners that they, you know, vote on them 
too, not just me, that it might have an effect on, you 
know, setting up an equitable formula for road paving.

Q. Mr. Beck, in these hearings that the commission 
held on the question of the charter proposal isn’t it a fact 
that a number of black citizens as recorded in the minutes 
presented to this Court of those hearings appeared before 
you and urged the commission to leave in the district elec­
tions that the charter study committee had proposed? 
A. At some of the hearings?

Q. Yes, sir. A. I don’t remember any specifically.

Q. You don’t remember Mr. Crosswright there? 
A. Mr. who?

Q. Crosswright. A. Mr. Crosswright, no, sir.
Q. Do you remember Dr. Gainer, Dr. Ruby 

Gainer? A. Yes, I remember Dr. Gainer.
Q. Okay, you don’t remember her urging you to

[1489] include the single-member districts? A. 1 
don’t, not specifically, no. I do not.

Q. In your opinion, Mr. Beck, is it more difficult for3 
black candidate to get elected if he has to run at-large in



489

this county than if he were allowed to run from a 
district? A. I don’t think so.

Q. What do you think are the chances of a black being 
elected in the current system?

MR. LOTT: Your Honor, I object to the question on 
the grounds that this suit is not about the electability of 
blacks. This suit is about whether the people that are 
elected are representing the black interests. And they’ve 
said over and over there’s no point at all.

THE COURT: We’re also going into a question of 
motivation and different things. I think it has some out­
side relevancy, Mr. Lott. All of these things are part of the 
picture, I’m afraid. I’m going to overrule the objection. 
Your may proceed to answer it.

A, What was the question again?

Q. Isn’t it a fact that there’s never been a black person 
elected to the county commission under the at-large 
system?

A. Not to my knowledge, no.

[1490] Q: Are you aware of the fact that there have 
been black candidates who have sought the county com­
mission unsuccessfully?

MR. FLEMING: Your Honor, all this has been 
stipulated to.

THE COURT: Well, he’s asking him about his 
awareness now, sir, and apparently he’s just said he didn’t 
know so we’d better, he may not have that much 
background. Do you know whether any black candidates 
have been elected to the county commission?

A. No, sir, I do, as I say —



490

THE COURT: If you were to assume the fact none have 
been elected and some have tried to be elected, would that 
have any effect on your opinion respecting their electabili- 
ty as such?

A. No, sir, it would not.

THE COURT: go ahead, Mr. Blacksher. You never 
really made any detailed study of the background in that 
respect, I’m sure, have you, Mr. Beck?

A. No, sir, my past background has been in education 
for twenty years.

THE COURT: Yes, sir.?

A. This is my first time in politics.

Q. Mr. Beck, if we told you that there was evidence 
already in this case that indicated that there was [1491] 
racially polarized voting in this county, that no black had 
ever been elected to the county commission or to the 
school board or to any other countywide local office under 
an at-large system, and that black citizens were bringing 
this suit to seek a change to district elections to give them 
an opportunity to express their preferences at the polls, in 
light of that would you consider that to be in any way, in 
your decision to oppose the district elections actually pro­
posed by your charter study committee? A. No, as 1 
pointed out earlier I felt like that the countywide concept 
would enable me to serve the county better in just the ex­
ample that I pointed out.

Q. Did you read the charter committee’s rationale sup­
porting its decision to suggest changes to single-member 
districts? A. Yes. I read the proposals that we had, that 
we had to vote on there, but again, sir, basing it on my 
knowledge of going out and meeting the people in my 
district is what I’m basing my opinion on.



491

Q. What black citizens in your district indicated to 
you that they preferred that you strike the single-member 
district proposal from the charter government 
draft? A. Mr. Lawrence Green, for one, believes that 
the county wide election is better.

Q. Yes, sir, we’ve had Mr. Green mentioned before. 
[1492] Who else? A. I don’t know of any other 
specifically that I, you know, know.

Q. You’re telling us that you don’t recall a single black 
person urging you to keep the district elections 
in? A. As I pointed out, Mr. Green had talked to me.

Q. You say he wanted at-large elections? A. The 
at-large elections.

Q. You don’t recall a single black person urging you to 
vote to keep the single-member districts in the charter pro­
posal?

THE COURT: Well, he just said Mr. Green, didn’t he?
MR. BLACKSHER: Yes, sir, but Mr. Green, he said, 

wanted the district elections stricken.

THE COURT: He wanted single-member district elec­
tions.

MR. BLACKSHER: No, sir, he’s testifying that Mr. 
Green wanted at-large.

THE COURT: He wanted countywide. I see. Excuse 
me, yes.

A. I don’t remember anyone coming to me and asking 
me, you know, to keep, to go, you know, keep a [1493] 
district election. No, sir.

Q. Who else did you ask in your district among your 
black constituents besides Mr. Green? A. I didn’t ask 
him. He, you know, he made his —



492

Q. I thought you said you went out amongst the peo­
ple in your district? A. I do. I did and I still do.

Q. Aside from Mr. Green who else, what other black 
constituents did you speak with? A. Specifically on the 
charter, on the single-member districts?

Q. Yes, sir. A. I don’t know of anyone that I spoke 
to.

MR. BLACKSHER: Okay, thank you.

THE COURT: You had a charter commission you all 
appointed recommending to you otherwise but in talking, 
going around to people there you didn’t seek to get expres­
sions of opinion from your people about that charter com­
mission; you made up your own mind about it without 
consulting people outside your constituency, in your con­
stituency?

A. Well, the people in my district when I was able to 
talk to them about being able to vote on all county com­
missioners, this is what they agreed that they [1494] would 
like the opportunity to vote on. I mean the blacks -

THE COURT: You did make some inquiries?
A. Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Among your constituents, and when you 

say that you talked about your district, you mean your 
residence district? That’s where you made inquiry?

A. Not just in that district.
THE COURT: You made some outside of that as well?

A. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: All right, sir.
MR. LOTT: Your Honor, I have three short questions 

on redirect.



493

THE COURT: Yes, sir.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. LOTT:

Q. Mr. Beck, did the filing of this law suit have any in­
fluence or have any bearing on your decision to allocate 
the paving m oneys fo r W elcom e C irc le , 
Quintette? A. No, sir, it did not.

Q. During your conducting of public hearings on the 
charter government how many people would you say 
spoke at the public hearings, overall in the public hear­
ings? A. Very few. I don’t know just how many people
[1495] spoke, really, but we would have, you know, fif­
teen or twenty at each meeting. That’s an estimate.

Q. Fifteen or twenty at each meeting? A. Yes.
Q. Over ten meetings. Were these publicly announced 

hearings? A. Yes, sir.
Q. On the method of changing the whole form of 

county government? A. Yes, sir, they were advertised 
as public hearings and published in a newspaper insert in a 
pamphlet booklet on the charter proposal.

Q. Mr. Beck, were you aware that a black person had 
ever won the Democratic Primary for a countywide 
race? A. I thought Mr. Jenkins had.

Q- Did that play any part in your opinion that a black 
person could get elected in the county? A. The ques­
tion again?

Q- Did the fact that you knew that play any part in 
your decision, in your opinion that a black person could 
be elected in Escambia County? A. Yes, it did.

MR. LOTT: No further questions.

THE COURT: Let’s see, he was defeated by —



494

[1496] MR. BLACKSHER: Mr. Jenkins beat Mr. 
Sanders, the college student.

THE COURT: Mr. Jenkins defeated who? That was in 
the primary election?

MR. LOTT: That was in the Democratic Primary, yes, 
sir.

THE COURT: And what happened in the general elec­
tion to Mr. Jenkins?

MR. LOTT: He was defeated by incumbent Republican 
Leeper.

THE COURT: he was defeated by Republican Leeper. 
All right, sir. You may step down. I started to excuse you 
from attendance but you’re a party defendant so I don’t 
have to tell you that, but anyhow you may step down now, 
Mr. Beck. A. Thank you, Your Honor.



495

TESTIMONY OF KENNETH J. KELSON
MR. LOTT: We call Mr. Kenneth Kelson.

KENNETH J. KELSON,
called as a witness by the defendants, being first duly 
sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. LOTT:
Q. Your Honor, this is Kenneth J. Kelson. He’s a 

county commissioner from District Two and presently sit­
ting on the Board of County Commissioners of Escambia
[1497] County Florida. He’s fifty-six years old, self 
employed, owner of Florida Electric Company. He resides 
at 1600 West Cypress Avenue. Mr. Kelson, are the facts I 
just related true and correct? A. It’s true.

Q. Mr. Kelson, what year did you first run for county 
commissioner? A. The first time I run for county com­
missioner was the year 1970.

Q. Okay, in that election I believe you had previously 
been a city councilman for a number of years. Is that cor­
rect? A. Yes, I resigned from the city council. I was a 
city councilman from 1959 through 1970, July, 1970.

Q. Who were the candidates in 1970 that you ran 
against? A. There was Sherman Barnes, Mr. E.S. 
Cobb and Reed, John Reed.

Q- All right, sir, were you successful in that 
election? A. No, I wasn’t. I come in third in a four- 
man race.

Q. So you were not in the runoff either? A. No,
sir.

[1498] Q. Okay, when did you next run for county



496

commission? A. The next time I run was in the year 
1974.

Q. Okay, who were the candidates in that 
election? A. That was Sherman Barnes was the incum­
bent at that time, and we had several other candidates in 
there but I don’t remember their names.

Q. Okay, what were the results of the primary 
election? A. Well, Sherman beat me very badly in the 
primary but I was the second runner-up to him so we had 
to run it off in the runoff.

Q. All right, sir, in your campaign for county commis­
sion did you have any black persons who participated in 
your campaign or were interested in your campaign at 
all? A. Yes, Lawrence Green was in my campaign and 
you had a lot of people that got involved in the campaign, 
just coming by, volunteering, picking up literature, cards, 
whatever they could do to help.

Q. Were any of these people who were volunteering in 
picking up cards or campaign material black? A. Yes, 
some of them were.

Q. Did you make any kind of effort to determine
[1499] who was coming by, picking up this stuff, passing 
it out? A. No, sir, I didn’t. I just left it open for any 
body that wanted to pick up literature, to pick it up.

Q. Okay, what was the result of the runoff in your 
campaign against Mr. Barnes? A. The final result was 
I beat him by two hundred thirty-two votes.

Q. Two hundred thirty-two votes? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay, during that election did you actively solicit 

and campaign for votes in black areas and appear at 
rallies? A. Yes, I was a campaigner that went where I



497

was invited. Especially I was at a rally at Magee Field. 
That’s on Alcaniz and Cross.

Q. Was that largely attended by blacks? A. Yes 
this was a rally put on by the black, a black organization, 
and I can’t recall the name of it.

Q. Do you feel the black vote was a significant con­
tribution to your election in 1974? A. Yes, sir, as far as 
I could tell Sherman and myself about split the black 
precincts. It was not overwhelmingly for me or him either 
one.

Q. Mr. Kelson, you were chairman of the Board of
[1500] County Commissioners at the time the county 
considered the charter for the county as recommended by 
the charter study committee, is that correct? A. Yes, 
sir.

Q. Would you briefly describe to the Court how the 
commission went about considering the recommendation 
of the committee.? A. Well, to start off with, you 
know, the commissioners tried to stay neutral in the elec­
tion where we could probably have what they call a fair 
election if people wanted charter government, we’ll let 
them vote it in. So we conducted these various hearings all 
over the county, which was a very poor turnout by the 
citizens of all areas. So at the conclusion of the hearings 
we come up with the document that we put on the ballot 
for the election by the people.

Q- All right, that final document contained a provi­
sion for countywide election of county commissioners. 
Was that consistent with the general, the recommendation 
of the charter committee? A. No, your charter com­
mittee was split on the recommendation of the charter that 
was submitted to the Board of County Commissioners.

Q- The majority report contained —



498

[1501] A. The majority report contained the district 
voting.

Q. Did you vote to change that back? A. I sure 
did.

Q. What was your reasoning? A. The simple 
reason, I feel if you run countywide you represent all the 
citizens of Escambia County, not just a district.

THE COURT: Well, if the law provided it, you would 
be doing it as a matter of law.

A. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: You’re talking about as a practical mat­
ter if you run otherwise you simply can’t do it?

A. Your Honor, you can do it, but I don’t believe -  if 
I was working in the district I would work in that district.

THE COURT: Well, from some testimony I’ve just 
heard you all still kind of split it up into districts and each 
of you looking after your districts and making decisions.

A. No, sir, not to my opinion.

THE COURT: Well, you heard it.
A. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Do you agree with what Mr. Beck told 
me?

[1502] A. No, sir, I don’t. I don’t work that way.

THE COURT: You don’t go out in your district and 
help select what roads to be paved and that kind of thing?

A. No, sir, 1 do not. When I was elected a commis­
sioner, I asked engineering to send an inspector into my 
district and not any particular roads but make a list of 
what was needed in District Two.



499

THE COURT: I see.

Q. Mr. Kelson, do you feel that the interest of black 
citizens in Escambia County could safely be ignored and 
their request for county services be ignored and a county 
commissioner act with impunity and still be elected in 
Escambia County? A. No, sir, I don’t think you could 
ignore not only black people but anyone and I don’t think 
you should as an elected official.

Q. Do you feel that you represent adequately the in­
terests of black citizens of Escambia County? A. Yes, I 
do.

Q. On the Board of County Commissioners. Mr. 
Kelson, as a county commissioner have you actively sup­
ported any black organizations that the county sponsors 
or any organizations that the county sponsors that aid 
predominantly black interests? [1503] A. Yes, I’m 
member of the CAP Agency. I serve on that particular 
board.

THE COURT: What is that?
A. CAP.

THE COURT: CAP?

A. Yes.

THE COURT: What is that? Civil Air Patrol is the only 
thing I know.

MR. LOTT: For the record it’s the Community Action 
Program.

A. Community Action Program. We’ve got so many 
abbreviations.

THE COURT: Thank you. I can understand that, sir.

Q- Do you know Mr. Tony McCray? A. Very well, 
sir.



500

Q. Is he a b lack  c itizen  o f Escambia 
County? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you as county commissioner worked with 
him closely in any project? A. Yes, sir, in the POCD.

Q. What is that organization’s function? A. Let 
me think and I’ll give you the name of that one. That’s 
People Organized for Community Development.

Q. Is th a t a n e ighbo rhood  improvement 
program? A. Do what?

[1504] Q. Is that a neighborhood improvement pro­
gram? A. Yes, it is. It’s mainly in your downtown sec­
tion area, that section of Escambia County.

Q. Mr. Kelson, you mentioned in your runoff election 
that put you in the county commission the difference be­
tween you and your opponent in the runoff in the 
Democratic Primary, the difference was two hundred 
thirty-two votes. Was there any Republican opposition in 
the general election? A. Yes, it was. We had one per­
son qualified in the general election. I think I beat him 
around twenty-seven thousand votes to twelve thousand 
votes in the general election.

Q. Okay, during the Democratic Primary do you feel 
that the black vote could have swung the election to the 
other side or changed the outcome of the election? 
A. In the primary election?

Q. Yes, sir, the primary runoff. A. It could have.
THE COURT: You mean in the runoff? Is that what 

you’re saying?
MR. LOTT: Yes, Your Honor.

A. In the runoff election.



501

MR. LOTT: Yes, Your Honor.

A. Yes, I think it could have.

[1505] MR. LOTT: Okay, no further questions of this 
witness.

THE COURT: Cross examination?

MR. BLACKSHER: Just one second, Your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION 

BY MR. BLACKSHER:

Q. Do you think the white vote could swing an elec­
tion, Mr. Kelson? A. Not for me it wouldn’t.

Q. What? A. Not for me it wouldn’t.

Q. It couldn’t possibly swing it for you? A. No, I 
always depend on all citizens to elect, not just white peo­
ple.

THE COURT: You just testified in a particular situa­
tion a black vote could have swung it. It’s equally true a 
few more whites voting for you would have swung it. 
That’s all you could have meant. A. What I meant, 
Your Honor, if you check the precincts —

THE COURT: If no more white voters voted for you, 
rather, if less whites had voted for you or some blacks 
voted against you it could have changed the result. In any 
close race in this county a swing vote of whites or blacks 
could change the result because we have enough black
[1506] or white voters. A. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: That’s about all you’re saying, isn’t it?

Q- I want to go back over something you said in 
regard to the charter government proposal and the propos­
ed single-member districts. Didn’t you testify just now that



502

there was a minority report from the committee which 
proposed at-large elections as opposed to the single­
member districts in the majority report?

A. No, sir, they just opposed the charter as proposed 
to the commissioners, it was my understanding.

THE COURT: They opposed what, sir?

A. They opposed the charter as submitted to the com­
missioners, the two members of the charter study commit­
tee.

Q. All right, well, let’s set the record straight because I 
got a different inference from your direct testimony. 
There wasn’t any minority report of the charter study com­
mittee that proposed at-large elections as opposed to the 
single-member districts? A. No, sir. No, sir, not that 
particular one.

Q. The committee as a whole proposed single-member 
districts, right? A. The majority of that committee, 
yes, sir.

[1507] THE COURT: Weren’t there two reports 
there?

MR. BLACKSHER: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: You’re going into that. Go ahead.

Q. Yes, sir, I’ll give the witness the reports that are 
already in evidence from the charter study committee 
report. The first one is marked 98 and it was the majority 
report submitted by the first committee. You remember 
there were two committees? A. Yes, sir.

Q. The second one is marked 99 and it’s the minority 
report of the first committee. And finally the third one is 
marked 100 and it’s the only report that was submitted by



503

the second committee. Now I just want to clarify whether 
or not there was even a single person on either one of those 
committees that proposed at-large elections. A. Well, I 
just assume if you have a report from some member of 
that committee that they didn’t approve the report as sub­
mitted the first time.

Q. Well, if you’ll look, I’ll tell you what, look at that 
document in the middle marked 99. That’s the only written 
minority report we have in the record, Mr. Kelson. Now 
look on the second page at the top and see what it says. 
The second page. That was the one submitted by Mr. 
Brosnaham, I believe. Correct me if I’m wrong.
[1508] A. Yes, by Brosnaham, Mr. Brosnaham.

Q. Brosnaham, excuse me, I mispronounced it. 
Doesn’t it say at the top that the minority is proposing five 
single-member districts? They don’t even propose the two 
at-large seats that the majority proposed. A. Right, on 
their report. The only thing I knew, they objected to the 
original as submitted to us.

Q. Well, they objected to a number of things? 
A. Yes.

Q. But that wasn’t one of them, was it? A. No, sir. 
No, sir, that wasn’t.

Q. Okay. So once again what was your reason in the 
face of this proposal by your own committee for voting to 
change or to keep at-large elections rather than to change 
to single-member districts? A. I just felt that I can 
represent the people better at a countywide election.

Q. You could? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay, tell us why you felt you could represent 

whoever it is you wanted to represent in a countywide elec­



504

tion. A. For the simple reason if you’re in a district I 
think you’d have more of a tendency to work with that 
district and that’s all as far as I’m concerned. I just felt
[1509] that if you were responsive to all the citizens of 
this county you’re going to be responsible to them when 
they call you for anything that goes on in the county.

Q. We understand that argument, Mr. Kelson, and I 
guess you would acknowledge there’s an argument on the 
other side that people representing just one district are go­
ing to have to deal with the other representatives as well, 
isn’t that correct, just like a legislature does? The 
legislature manages to function somehow even though 
they are elected from separate districts throughout the 
state. They have to deal with each other, right? That’s 
compromise. So there’s two sides to that, right? 
A. That’s true.

Q. Okay, sir. Now, were you aware of the fact that 
there were black citizens who were urging that the county 
commission keep the proposed change to district elec­
tions? A. The only ones I can remember is the ones at a
meeting at the health center when we had several appear 
there.

Q. And they asked, they urged you to keep the district 
elections in the proposal as suggested by the study commit­
tee, correct? A. That’s true.

[1510] Q. Are your concerns, what I want is to get 
you to tell us, explain to us how your political science con­
cerns about how well you represent someone in an at-large 
system outweigh the concerns of a minority group who 
feel they’re being shut out of the political process by the at- 
large elections. Which is more important in your mind? 
A. I don’t feel nobody is being shut out as far as county 
government is concerned.



505

Q. Well, it’s a government that blacks have been shut 
out of the county commission so far as being elected. That 
is something you can’t deny, isn’t it? A. No, sir, but I 
was shut out in 1970 too, if you’ll bear in mind, and to me 
I was one of the most popular politicians in the Pensacola 
area at that time.

Q. Yes, sir, and if we put your batting average up over 
time I guess you’d be proud of it, wouldn’t you? You did 
make it eventually. A. I made it because I went and 
tried and I learned something in the first election. I wasn’t 
ready to get out here in a countywide campaign and I 
found this out in a hurry.

Q. Blacks have been shut out altogether, isn’t that cor­
rect? A. I don’t think so. Mr. Hollice Williams has 
been [1511] elected time after time.

THE COURT: He means on the county commission. As 
far as you know blacks have never been elected to the 
county commission, is that correct, Mr. Kelson?

A. No, sir, the only one I ever remember running is 
Mr. John Reed, who ran in the race with me, and he polled 
five thousand votes.

Q. He ran fourth at that time?
A. Yes, sir. There wasn’t but four in the race.
MR. BLACKSHER: I think that’s all.

THE COURT: Any redirect?

MR. LOTT: One question.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. LOTT:

Q. Commissioner Kelson, isn’t it true that the deci­
sions with respect to charter government and the change in



506

the committee recommendations all occurred after this law 
suit was filed?

A. That’s true.
MR. LOTT: No further questions.
THE COURT: All right, sir. You may step down, sir, 

Mr. Kelson.
A. Thank you.
THE COURT: I’ve been telling them they’re excused but 

these defendants are heading out. It’s about time to 
[1512] take another break, I imagine, about a ten minute 
break. We’ll take about a ten minute recess.

(Recess)

(Open court)



507

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES DEESE, JR.
MR. LOTT: Call Charles Deese, Jr.

CHARLES DEESE, JR. called as a witness by the 
defendants, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION 
BY MR. LOTT:

Q. Your Honor, this is Charles Deese, Jr. He lives at 
8500 Sharron Lane. He’s a lifelong resident of Escambia 
County. He’s forty-five years old. He’s self employed in 
the business of residential design and general contracting 
and building. He’s a member of the West Florida Home 
Builders Association. He’s presently a county commis­
sioner from County Commission District Five on the 
Board of County Commissioners of Escambia County 
Florida. The statements I’ve just made to the Court, are 
they correct, Mr. Deese? A. Sir?

Q. Are the statements I made to the Court correct? 
A. No, sir, it’s District One.

Q. I’m sorry, excuse me, District One.
[1513] THE COURT: It’s correct otherwise?

A. Otherwise correct.

Q. Mr. Deese, when did you first run for the county 
commission? A. I first ran in 1972 and was unsuccessful.

Q. Did you reach the runoff? Did you run in the 
Democratic Primary? A. Yes, I did.

Q- Did you reach the runoff? A. Yes, I did.

Q. Who was your opponent in the runoff? A. Mr. 
Albritton.

Q. And you were defeated in 1972? A. That is cor­
rect.



508

THE COURT: You were defeated in the runoff, 
Democratic runoff?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. When did you next run for county commission, 

Mr. Deese? A. In 1976.
Q. Who were your opponents in that election? 

A. Bill McClellan, Raymond Lee, Herb Van Dyke, 
Harry Ham, Mr. Albritton, the incumbent, and myself. 
Six.

Q. What was the result in the Democratic Primary? 
A. In the Democratic Primary I was the, out of [1514] 
the six I was the front runner and then the runoff in 
the Democratic Primary, I was successful against Mr. 
Albritton.

Q. Mr. Albritton was the incumbent at the time, is 
that correct? A. That’s correct.

Q. What kind of margin of victory did you have in the 
election? A. I believe Mr. Albritton’s vote was, total 
vote in the runoff was eighteen thousand two hundred 
forty-six. My total was twenty-nine thousand nine hun­
dred thirty-one.

Q. Okay, during the conduct of your two campaigns 
did you consider the black vote to be an important factor 
in the success of your election in 1976? A. Yes, sir, I 
did.

Q. Did you have any black citizens who assisted you in 
your campaign efforts? A. Yes, I did. Would you like 
the names?

Q. Please, sir. A. Okay. Mr. Lawrence Green took
some of my literature and passed it out in the community' 
Mr. Gene Brown and Mr. James, I’m sorry, not James



509

Walker, I had a campaign meeting at Woerner’s 
Restaurant some seventy-five or eighty people attended. I 
had approximately ten blacks [1515] attending that 
meeting. They took some districts to work and some 
literature and we all worked successfully together. During 
my campaign I had three blacks: Willie Mae Jackson, 
James Royster and Mrs. Elmore Benjamin, on the radio 
with campaign information. 1 also had Mr. and Mrs. 
James Walker doing telephone calling for me through 
their church efforts.

Q. Were they black citizens? A. Yes, they were. 
I’m giving you the names of the blacks at this time, if you 
would. I had a Mrs. Rafael Greer, Mr. Rafael Greer said 
he would ask his wife to do the telephoning for me, which 
I assume she did. Mr. and Mrs. Gene Brown were also 
heavy workers in my campaign. Reverend Callaway, I 
discussed the campaign with him and some of my other 
supporters discussed it with him and he was working for 
me. Mr. Elmore Benjamin also was very active, probably 
the most active of all the workers in my campaign in the 
black community, taking me to different functions in the 
black community.

Q. Okay, tell me about the functions and rallies and 
other public appearances you made in your 1976 cam­
paign. A. Well, of course we’ve already discussed in 
previous testimony the Democratic rallies throughout the 
[1516] county. I attended all of them. Some of my black 
people attended these rallies also to assist me and pass out 
information. I went to the Royal Entertainers Club on 
Alcaniz Street on two occasions at their invitation. I at­
tended a meeting at a black church on Gulf Beach 
Highway at their invitation and discussed my candidacy 
with several of their members. I went to, attended a black 
sorority meeting at the Sheraton downtown.



510

Q. Do you feel that the black voters in Escambia 
County were an important element in your overall consti­
tuency that resulted in your election? A, Yes, sir, I had 
everyone from one end of the county, black and white, 
working for me, I feel like, and I had a good working 
organization.

Q. All right, sir. Let me draw your attention for just a 
minute to the proposed charter that the Board of County 
Commissioners considered last year and the recommenda­
tion of the charter study committee to the Board of Coun­
ty Commissioners. Would you please describe for the 
Court the consideration the board gave to the charter pro­
posal and how they went about considering it. A. Yes. 
The board was presented a majority and a minority report 
on the charter. At a later date a committee was set up to 
restudy the charter proposal and [1517] then present to 
the board. Because I was one of the newest commis­
sioners at that time I was quite interested in just exactly 
what the charter contained, what it was all about, things 
of this nature. So I was placed on the committee to go over 
the charter word by word to see what needed to be ad­
justed here, there and yonder before giving any final 
presentation.

Q. Okay, the board, I believe, in previous testimony 
has indicated, it was indicated that the Board of County 
Commissioners changed the recommendation or did not 
accept the recommendation of the charter study commit­
tee to go to single-member districts but instead retained 
the present general at-large election of county commis­
sioners countywide. Would you explain to the Court your 
reason behind supporting that. A. Yes, I would. The 
board, after we received the recommendation of the com­
mittee, the board then went over each of the points 
basically, went over the different points and chose various



511

and sundry things in the presented charter that were to be, 
upon their opinion, would be recommended to be changed. 
One of these proposals, and there were quite a few, but 
one of these proposals was to stay with the same type of 
county wide voting because it represented, each person was 
then representing all the people of the county rather than 
just their private districts, [1518] and on the opinion 
there it was possibly that the individual districts would go 
back to the individual little kingdoms where you would 
have individual commissioners having his own little works 
and not being receptive to anything else that went on 
anywhere else in the county.

Q. Okay, what was the issue on which you cam­
paigned in 1972 and 1976? A. In 1972 basically, and in 
1976, we had, as you know, I was running against Mr. 
Albritton and there was quite a bit of dirt road politics as 
such where the expression there came about where we had 
a one to one basis, individual commissioners one to one to 
the constituents, where we needed a commissioner that 
was more responsive to the total number of people rather 
than just the district. It was also called pothole politics, it’s 
been referred to in several editorials and things of this 
nature. I campaigned that the people should be getting fair 
representation and that each commissioner should be 
responsive to the people of the county and also that there 
would be no political deals made and things of this nature. 
I was very much opposed to any back room politics, as 
another word, cliche’ being used.

Q. How did the decision to retain at-large elections 
relate to your campaign theories? [1519] A. To my 
campaign what?

Q- Your campaign issues were dirt road politics and 
service to all areas. How did that relate to the particular



512

decision to retain at-large elections? A. Weil, I think 
the people of this county want to have representation on 
the board and they want to be able to call any of their 
commissioners. I get calls from people all over the county. 
For instance Saturday morning at 9:00 o’clock I was in 
Molino. This is Mr. Beck’s district. I was in Mr. Beck’s 
district talking to some people there at their request and 
was taken up there by some other people who wanted to 
talk about it. Sunday at the church I was given a request to 
be taken care of. I don’t know whose district this is. It’s 
still in my pocket. I haven’t taken it out. We get represen­
tations, we get calls from people all over the county. It’s 
not just no one place or the other.

Q. All right, sir, I call your attention to the appoint­
ment by the Board of County Commissioners of the county 
budget and finance committee. Are you familiar with 
that? A. Yes, I am.

Q. Do you make any suggestions as to the persons to 
be included in that committee? A. Yes, I did. I made 
two suggestions. I made a [1520] suggestion and they 
were accepted. I recommended Dr. Donald Spence. He 
was accepted. And I also recommended Elmore Benjam in. 
He was accepted.

Q. Were these the only two recommendations? 
A. These were the only two.

Q. What are the races of those two gentleman? 
A. They ’re both black.

Q. Mr. Deese, could you briefly describe the character 
and boundaries of your residency districts? A. Excuse 
me one second, if you could. Could I make an explana­
t io n ,  if the Court would, as to why I appointed those two?

THE COURT: All right, sir, go ahead.



513

A. The other members, some of them had already 
been appointed and they were still being appointed and I 
recognized the fact there were no blacks on there at this 
time so this is one of the main reasons that I appointed the 
ones I had, plus one of those was a very strong worker in 
my campaign and I knew what his thinking was and I 
knew how straight he was. So I did appoint him and then 
also Don Spence. I learned to appreciate him in the cam­
paigning time. I had no knowledge of him otherwise. So I 
met him at the campaigns and I appreciated his attitudes.

Q. Okay, would you briefly describe for the Court 
[1521] the boundaries of your county commission 
residency district and the character of it. A. Yes. 
Basically I start somewhere near Pensacola High School 
and go over to Palafox and go north on Palafox to ap­
proximately Interstate 10 and then we’ll go west along the 
centerline of Interstate 10 to Ashland Avenue, then turn 
north up Ashland Avenue to approximately ten mile road 
where there is a creek in there. Then it follows the boun­
daries of the creek west until it gets to Interstate 10 and 
then follows it on Interstate 10 on out to the west till we 
get to the Perdido River, which is Alabama. On the south, 
taking from Pensacola, Pensacola High, going west, we 
will go out through some portions of Brownsville and out 
Mobile Highway till you hit Saufley Field Road, turn left 
on Saufley and go west on Saufley to about Saufley Field 
and then it more or less follows a boundary line of a creek, 
something of that nature, across the back side of Saufley 
Field. It is divided up in farm land, suburban area and, as 
you know, something in the black and white mixed district 
down around Pensacola High School.

Q- Are there any unpaved roads in your district? 
A- I have approximately, well, I had approximately fifty 
wiles of unpaved road in my district. That was [1522] 
before last year’s paving.



514

Q. What was the paving, what did the paving pro­
gram in your district consist of last year? A. Okay, 
the roads that I paved in my district, Wymar, the west 
side, I’m sorry, the east side of George Stone School going 
north, tying into Interstate Circle, going west and tying in 
and stopping at Pine Forest road. Now, this is a leader 
road that is, there are white residents living on this road 
but it’s not heavily populated along either one of those 
roads, especially the Interstate Circle Road, but there are 
leader roads and tie-in roads that will take the traffic away 
from George Stone School. They represent some 49 per­
cent of my paving. Then I paved Longleaf Drive from 
George Stone School to the east, tying in to Rolling Hills 
Road, which represents 48 percent of my paving.

Q. Okay, Mr. Deese, as to that 48 percent of your pav­
ing budget for 1977 as it relates to Longleaf Drive, what 
was the predominant character of the neighborhood in the 
area served by that road as far as racial composition? 
A. From George Stone School to the east we have ap­
proximately four white residents and then it goes on to the 
east and ties in and opens up the back side, the west side of 
the Wedgewood area, which is predominantly [1522] 
black. This gives the Wedgewood residents a west direction 
to go to the Navy Yard and west to go west and then north 
on Pine Forest to St. Regis or south from Pine Forest to the 
other parts of town and also gives them good access to 
George Stone School where a lot of their people go.

Q. What is the racial composition of the people that 
benefit directly and primarily from that 48 percent of your 
budget? A. Eighty percent black.

Q. Okay, you mentioned Rolling Hills Road. We had 
some testimony about this earlier in the trial. Are you 
familiar with any complaints that have been made to you 
or to the Board of County Commissioners concerning



515

county commission requests for services in Rolling Hills 
Road? A. Yes, sir, I have, and I’ll be glad to go over 
these, if you would like. I will give you, for instance, I 
have five reports here from a Reverend Ford on Roiling 
Hills Road, about six. These were taken care of im­
mediately. I have here starting 10/11/76 from Mr. Max­
well, one of the plaintiffs, “Request grading road and fill­
ing holes,” on 10/11/76. This was taken care of and dated 
10/12/76. I have from Mr. Maxwell dated 6/21/77, re­
quest to grade the shoulder of the road and also repair 
road. This was taken care of on 7/20/77, “Repaired road, 
grass shoulders as requested.” I have a request from Mr. 
Maxwell, 9/16/77, request to put dirt on the north end of 
the road and also round the road and repair it to mail box, 
and the request states that, “Put dirt on the road and 
graded.” I also have a memorandum that I attached to this 
to Mr. Mooney, Executive Director, and I’ll read it. It 
says, “As per attached copy of work request and response 
of Mr. Maxwell, came in this morning not to complain 
about the work but wondered if the work had been in­
spected to see if it had been done properly. Also was con­
cerned about the lack of coordination between the road 
department.” And we’d been getting complaints along the 
same lines. Rolling Hills Road again, October the 10th, 
Mr. Maxwell, request of the same nature. January 1 , ’78, 
Mr. Maxwell requesting grade the road. This was on 1/9. 
The road was graded on 1/13 per request. Mr. Maxwell re­
quested February 3rd, ’78, “Road is washed out, needs 
crowning, filling and grading.” On February the 10th the 
foad inspector’s investigation said that they cut the mud 
off the road and leveled up the same. On February the 
13th, and this came from Reverend Ford, I’ve got it mixed 
UP in here, requesting road repair, the same road, on the 
13th of May; it said, “The crew went out on the 13th and 
made a mess. Please check and correct.” The request was,



516

[1525] it was repaired as per above request. Mr. Maxwell 
on February the 15th requested put swale at each side of 
the street, crown and grade the road, repair at the mail 
box, road foreman to contact Mr. Maxwell. The board, it 
was signed off by the road supervisor that it was just com­
pleted —

THE COURT: Instead of going all through these, they 
speak for themselves. Put them in evidence and he can 
save time in his testimony. How many more of these do 
you have, Mr. Deese?

A. Your Honor, I have a bunch of them. We can take 
care of them in a day or two.

THE COURT: Why don’t you put them in?

A. They’re basically the same.
MR. LOTT: We move at this time for their admission, 

if there’s no objection. They weren’t on our exhibit list.

THE COURT: We can go over and over these things.

A. Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Do you have any objection to them com­

ing in this way? They speak for themselves.
MR. BLACKSHER: I think I understand Your Honor’s 

concern but I think in fairness if we’d had the opportunity 
to see these documents before trial we could have checked 
behind them to see what was going on and be prepared to
[1526] respond to them.

THE COURT: Mr. Deese, go right ahead, sir.
MR. BLACKSHER: But, Your Honor, I’m as concern­

ed as you if we’re going to go through all these. We merely 
request the opportunity to come back and cross examine 
later, if we may.



517

THE COURT: Well, I don’t know what you want me to 
do.

MR. BLACKSHER: If you’re going to put them in 
evidence, give us —

THE COURT: Since you’re objecting to it this way I’m 
going to let him go right on through and you can cross ex­
amine. Mr. Deese, I’m sorry I lost this time. You go right 
ahead.

A. Thank you, Your Honor.

Q. Mr. Deese, you may continue to try to summarize, 
if you can.

A. Sir? I’m sorry.

Q. You may continue, but summarize if you can.

A. All right. I’m sorry. I have a letter here from mail 
delivery service to Mr. Maxwell stating that service there 
was going to have to be discontinued due to the fact that 
the road was in the condition that it was in. The next day, I 
believe it was, after this date, we had a meeting of the 
county commission. Mr. Maxwell and [1527] Mr. Stokes, 
the plaintiffs, appeared before the board and re­
quested that something be taken care of immediately, 
especially due to this letter, which I did submit to the 
board. And at that time the board agreed that they would 
authorize special work day to be done and that was on Fri­
day. Now, the road camp does not work on Friday. We 
work four ten-hour days, so on this day of Friday the 
work crews came out at an overtime pay and took care of 
the problem that existed at the location. February the 22nd 
we have a similar situation. February 29th it was taken 
care of. March the 3rd, the 6th, we have a similar situa­
tion. March 17th it was taken care of. Now we get into Mr. 
Stokes’ requests and we have a similar situation, Your



518

Honor. Basically these things are all the same, daily 
reports, requests, daily returns, daily taken care of.

THE COURT: Maybe we can stop on that and that 
gives Mr. Blacksher enough to cross examine on.

MR. BLACKSHER: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right, sir, go ahead, Mr. Lott.

Q. Okay. Mr. Deese, what was the race of the persons 
who were requesting these services from the county? 
A. These services?

Q. Yes, sir. A. These were from the predominant­
ly, from the [1528] black community, and it was from 
Mr. Stokes and Mr. Maxwell and Reverend Ford, all of 
the black community.

Q. Okay, and how many of those requests have not 
been responded to with the requested action? A. Here’s 
my folder of the pendings on Rolling Hills Road and there 
it is and this request was made by Eugene Brown and the 
request was to repair the shoulder of the road and the cost 
was about thirty-five dollars and this would be, this was 
dated May the 3rd and it was taken care of on May 9th. I 
just found this out. So it has been taken care of also.

Q. So there are no outstanding requests that haven’t 
been responded to, is that correct? A. As of Friday 
afternoon there are no responses, no requests that we have 
not responded to immediately.

Q. Mr. Deese, about how long ago did these requests 
start? A. Well, I can look back on my list and give you 
basically the earliest date. Now, bearing in mind I’m a new 
candidate in office as of ’76. I have the first one here, 
10/11/76. Now, that is —

THE COURT: That shows you how far back they went?



519

[1529] A. That is prior to my taking office but these 
dates have been —

THE COURT: Okay, the first one you have is October 
10th, 1976?

A. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Lott.

Q. Mr. Deese, did the fact this law suit was filed have 
anything to do with the county’s response to those requests 
after the date of initial litigation? A. No, sir. In fact it 
was about a week and a half ago that I realized that Mr. 
Stokes and Mr. Maxwell were one and the same. I didn’t 
check them with the suit and I have no reason to worry 
about it one way or the other because I treat all the same.

Q. Mr. Deese, do you consider responding to requests 
from black citizens as well as white citizens a responsibility 
and a keeping of your campaign promises? A. Yes, sir. 
I took an oath of office to serve the people of the county, 
not to serve the white people.

Q. Do you feel that you represent fully the black in­
terests as well as the white interests of the citizens in 
Escambia County? A. I do my very best to do this and 
I hope that they feel the same way.

Q. Do you feel that you could safely ignore in a 
[1530] campaign or in an election the needs of black con­
stituents and feel comfortable about going back to the 
Polls? A. Absolutely not.

MR. LOTT: No further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Deese, if you took an oath in a 

single-member election you would still be taking an oath 
to serve the people of the county, not the people in your 
district. Could you comply with your oath in this situation 
and could you comply with it in that situation?



520

A. Your Honor, the only thing —

THE COURT: We have, we have the State of Florida 
with all our legislators; they serve the people of the State 
of Florida under their oath, and in a single-member elec­
tion district you would take that same kind of an oath.

A. Yes, sir, but is it not true that maybe Bob Sikes 
feels a little bit more about Northwest Florida than he 
would South Florida?

THE COURT: Well, that’s what you’re saying but 
beyond that you would feel that a little bit more about 
your district right now because you talk about “my district 
and my roads” and you’re only a resident in that district.

A. Yes, sir, that is correct. The district, my [1531] 
office handles the majority, it’s a clearing office for the 
complaints and anything that comes in from that district. 
However, that doesn’t mean that we don’t go over in other 
districts, as I stated earlier.

THE COURT: You would in the other kind of election 
too. Another thing, haven’t you and the county, under the 
law as I understand it in Florida you’re supposed to be a 
policy-making body and you’ve got your people down 
there under you. You’ve gone to an administrator, have 
you not, as I understand it, some ordinance not too long 
ago, you all went through something and delegated and 
spelled out that you have an administrator. If you don’t 
like him you get rid of him, but he’s your detail man. Yet 
from what you tell me you take on details yourself. These 
people that come to you, you don’t say, “Now, what you 
need to do is go down and talk to our people because they 
take care of the day to day details”? You don’t do that?

A. No, sir, because the people of this county say, “I 
voted for you and I want to speak to you. I don’t want to 
speak to your secretary, I don’t want to speak to Mr.



521

Mooney, I don’t want to speak to anybody but the com­
missioner I voted for.” And therefore what are you going 
to do? Are you going to say, “I’m sorry, I’m a policy 
maker”? I represent everyone that comes into my [1532] 
office.

THE COURT: In other words you’re not a policy maker 
in practice even though in law you’re supposed to be in 
your judgement?

A. By law I’m supposed to be a policy maker?

THE COURT: That’s what I thought you were sup­
posed to be. We’ll find out about it. I thought the Board of 
County Commissioners sat as a policy-making body and 
the details of the work went on with the staff. That theory 
is there with the school board. It’s supposed to be policy­
making with the superintendent being the administrator. I 
thought you all had the concept in law. Maybe I’m wrong.

MR. LOTT: Your Honor, under Florida law the county 
commission has historically been both a legislative and ad­
ministrative body. To the extent they desire they may ap­
point an administrator to handle such duties as they deem 
desirable to appoint to him but under Florida law the 
county commissioners are both administrative and legis­
lative. The only function that is separated as far as the 
government of the county is concerned is the judicial.

THE COURT: I see. But this board has recently tried to 
divorce itself more from administrative work and get more 
in the policy-making areas?

[1533] MR. LOTT: To the extent they adopted the 
county administrator’s format. However, the county ad­
ministrator’s format permits the county to delegate as 
much authority as it sees fit to an administrator and retain 
as much as it sees fit.



522

THE COURT: I see. Well, that clarifies my thinking in 
that respect and that leaves you in that position.

A. Yes.
THE COURT: And that would be a reason you think 

you ought to stay on a general election even though you 
work in and out of a district and come back and forth?

A. Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Go ahead.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. BLACKSHER:To sum up the county ad­
ministrator ordinance that the county commission 
adopted, it delegated the authority to the county ad­
ministrator hiring people and doing things in the central 
offices but the county commissioners retained for 
themselves the prerequisite of deciding which roads in 
their residency districts would be paved, is that 
right? A. Those roads are recommended by the com­
missioner and the engineering department because there’s 
no way that [1534] I could take that, to give you a total 
recommendation on a road without the input from 
the engineering department, because they figure up how 
much it’s going to cost. Now —

Q. Well, what I was saying, Mr. Deese, is whereas 
under your ordinance that Mr. Lott was talking about the 
commissioners can’t go behind a decision made by 
whoever the administrator is to hire or fire somebody, that 
is not true with respect to roads; the county administrator 
doesn’t decide where the roads are going to be built or 
repaired. That’s something that you still participate in to a 
large extent, is that right? A. We make the recommen­
dation to the board and the full board votes on which



523

roads will be paved. They are divided into districts because 
of the sheer working conditions of the road camp people.

Q. Well, how often does the full vote of the board 
overturn the decisions made by the individual commis­
sioner about which roads in his district within the budget 
allotted to you will be paved? A. Any time you have a 
three to two vote.

Q. Well, I understand that the majority is three to 
two. Mr. Deese. A. Yes, sir.

Q. But I asked you how many times does that [1535] 
happen?

THE COURT: To your knowledge has it happened at 
all where one was overturned, a recommendation of a 
commissioner?

A. Not to my knowledge.

THE COURT: Since you’ve been there you don’t 
remember it happening?

A. There was a recommendation that a certain road be 
paved in my district this past year. I did not desire to par­
ticipate in it so another commissioner did pave that road in 
my district with his money.

THE COURT: You mean he made the motion?
A. Sir?

THE COURT: He made the motion it be paved?

A. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: But he knew you didn’t want to make a 
motion for some reason?

A. No, it was not on my list that I was going to recom­
mend.

THE COURT: I see.



524

A. So he added it to his list.
THE COURT: I see.

A. He paved it with his money. Thank you.

THE COURT: With his money?

A. His money.
[1536] THE COURT: There you go again. The money 

is to be spent in his district and money to be spent in yours. 
It’s almost a single-member election concept in that thing, 
isn’t it, Mr. Deese? It’s hard to get away from it?

A. Well, if it were that way, Your Honor, I would 
think that commissioner would be very jealous of his area 
and would not want to spend money in my district. He’d 
hold his in his district.

THE COURT: Well, it could be. It might work out that 
way.

A. Your Honor, a long time ago we had those type 
things, little kingdoms.

THE COURT: I know you did. There’s a lot of history 
in it. Go ahead.

Q. Mr. Deese, I need to understand whether the work 
requests you were reading with respect to Mr. Maxwell, 
Mr. Stokes, Reverend Ford, concern the same road. 
A. Yes, sir, that section they’re referring to is a little over 
a block long.

Q. Well, I counted, I tried to count, I got something 
like seventeen work requests beginning in October of 1976 
up through, well, you’ve got one that hasn’t been answered 
there. Now, isn’t that a little bit high incidence for one 
block needing repairs? [1537] A. Yes, I really believe 
it is. 1 think it’s an imposition on their part to call for the



525

same thing to happen, both of them calling and getting ex­
actly the same thing. When the road needs paving, when 
the road needs working, it appears all three of them get 
together and call. I don’t know it, to be frank, and it ap­
pears all three call and we would have three requests. This 
is overtaxing the county personnel to have to have these 
working crews run out this way.

Q. Do you have indication there these requests were 
not well founded, the work didn’t actually need to be done 
and somebody just went out there and looked at it and 
said, “It’s all right,” and turned around and came 
back? A. No, sir.

Q. So they did some work every time they went out 
there, right? A. They were in the process of doing the 
work while they were also being called for the next day’s 
work.

Q. Well, I don’t - A. The dates prove that.

0- Pardon? A. The dates show that. They’ll be 
working out [1538] there today to do yesterday’s or two 
days ago’s request and at the same time getting another re­
quest to do something else possibly.

Q. Well, have you done any inspection or asked your 
engineers to do any kind of investigation to find out what 
the general problem is with this road that it requires such 
constant upkeep and maintenance and why it’s 
deteriorating so fast? A. Yes, we have. It is an area 
that is going down a slope. At the end of the road is a 
swamp. There is a spring that is on the east side of the road 
that is giving a lot of trouble. We have taken many 
truckloads or yards, we’ll say, of gravel out there, which 
We normally don’t put on the road, to try to get this water 
Moving. I consulted with our road superintendent as to



526

what was being done. He said we needed some way to get 
the water across the road and still not mess up these peo­
ple’s property. Any time that it rains real hard it’s a funnel 
area.

Q. How about paving? A. Be glad to pave it. We 
need some money to pave it with. We need some twelve 
thousand dollars to pave that section.

Q. I see. And that money is not available? A. At 
this time it’s not available.

[1539] Q. Is there any money available for paving 
anywhere since October, 1976? A. Since October 
when?

Q. October, 1976. Has there been any money available 
for paving anywhere in your district? A. Oh, yes. I 
paved primarily the feeder roads, as I stated before.

Q. The high traffic roads? A. The high traffic 
roads, which is the other side of Rolling Hills Road, ties 
in, that carries these people to the area.

Q. And those roads you testified about are used 
primarily, among other things, by school buses? 
A. Absolutely. This is taxpayers’ money we’re tearing up 
the buses with so I’m trying to protect the taxpayers’ 
money in the form of protecting buses.

Q. I think you also testified, Mr. Deese, that you were 
proud to have appointed Dr. Spence, and was it Reverend 
Benjamin? A. Elmore Benjamin.

Q. Elmore Benjamin. To one of the boards? 
A. That’s correct.

Q. That you were mentioning, and I can’t rem em ber 
the name of it, and you said that you thought there was a



527

need to appoint black people because there had [1540] 
not been any on that board before. Is that what you 
said? A. This was a brand new board and it was in the 
process of being appointed.

Q. Okay, sir. Did you make that observation with 
respect to boards and committees generally appointed by 
the commission? A. I’ve had no reason to appoint 
anyone else.

Q. Well, are you implying by what you said about all 
the paving you’ve done in these black neighborhoods or 
the improvements you’ve done in these black neigh­
borhoods by appointing blacks to a board and com­
mittee that your predecessor in office wasn’t sensitive to or 
responsive to blacks and you were making up for that? Is 
that what your inference is? A. I didn’t indicate 
anything about my predecessor.

Q. You’re not saying then that you felt the need to do 
some catching up for black folks in your district? 
A. No, sir.

Q. So you haven’t given them any particular 
preference over white people in your district? A. No,
sir.

Q. And for the instances that you gave us of [1541] 
having prepared a road in a black neighborhood you could 
§ive us many others for having done the same thing in a 
white neighborhood, is that correct? A. Your percen­
tages will prove that I paved 48 percent on Longleaf Drive, 
which serves, I paved 21 percent on one, 3 percent on 
another, a total of 100 percent. I had seventy-nine thou­
sand two hundred seventy-eight dollars to work with.

Q. Those were throughways you’re talking about, 
r'ght? You’re counting as a black area those residences in



528

and around a thoroughfare that has been paved to 
facilitate traffic from Pine Forest Road south and so 
forth, right? A. Right.

Q. All right. A. From George Stone School.

Q. Let me talk to you a few minutes about the charter 
study committee and the charter proposal, please. Isn’t it a 
fact you were a member of the second charter study com­
mittee that was appointed by the commission? A. I’ve 
already testified to that fact.

Q. I’m sorry, I didn’t understand that you were on that 
committee. A. Yes, sir. Now, wait a minute now. 
Don’t get it confused with the majority and minority com­
mittee [1542] that formed the charter government.

Q. That was the first one, and you weren’t on that 
one? A. I was not there. I was not even elected. I was 
on a committee that was to study the proposal and then 
come back to the commission with recommendations.

Q. All right, sir. A. And we did study that word 
for word.

Q. In plaintiffs’ exhibit 100 is the report of that second 
study committee of which you were a member, am I cor­
rect? It was so identified my Mr. Tennant.

THE COURT: You were a member of that committee, 
Mr. Deese? That’s what he’s asking. A. Your Honor, 
I’m, the front of this thing confused me a little bit because 
there were two of these. I believe one of them did say 
majority report.

THE COURT: This is the second one. A. Do we 
have two of them just like this except one of them says 
majority report?



529

THE COURT: Can you look at that thing and see if 
you’re a member? A. There are no names on it.

THE COURT: I think the testimony says that was a 
unanimous report.

[1543] MR. BLACKSHER: That’s correct. The 
testimony Mr. Tennant gave - A. Okay.

MR. BLACKSHER: Was that there was no minority 
report from the second committee. What’s marked as 98 is 
the majority report from the first committee and that 
looks something like that. A. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: This is the committee you served on? 
A. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Are you finished with this?

Q. Yes, sir. Well, now, that committee report also 
proposed single-member districts, isn’t that correct, Mr. 
Deese? A. I believe it did.

Q. Okay, sir, and you were a member of that commit­
tee? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you didn’t file a minority report, did you? I 
mean you were in favor of that proposal. That’s what I’m 
getting at. A. I did not object to it.

THE COURT: Well, that being so, you agreed to that 
report as it went in but you voted otherwise on the com­
mission? [1544] A. The commission, the thing that 
we voted on, on the report, we took the other report that 
he had —

THE COURT: Dr. Deese, all I’m saying to you, sir, is 
that Mr. Tennant had said this is unanimous. You say you 
didn’t object to it so I suppose that report went to the com­
mittee as a report you approved. A. Yes, sir.



530

THE COURT: And it recommended single-member
districts? A. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: On the commission, however, you voted 
otherwise? You did not vote for single-member districts? 
A. Your Honor -

THE COURT: Is that correct? A. We, if I could -

THE COURT: I’m just asking if that’s correct, and 
then you may explain, of course. A. Yes, sir, it is cor­
rect. If I may qualify my statement.

THE COURT: All right, sir. A. When we voted, we 
made one vote and it covered a multiple of changes to this 
report. It didn’t single out and vote individually on each 
thing it covered. One vote covered a multiple so I didn’t 
single out and vote [1545] against or for the single-man 
district thing. It was a multiple of things that were 
changed.

THE COURT: It still remains you didn’t feel strongly 
enough about the situation in your committee, at least, to 
come in and talk about it and file a minority report. 
A. No, sir.

THE COURT: Perhaps you don’t feel too strongly one 
way or the other about the entire situation. Is that right? 
There are merits on both sides of it, is that what you’re 
saying? A. Yes, sir, in this situation.

THE COURT: Merits on both sides, single-member or 
at-large? That’s what you’re saying. But you did change 
and vote - A. In the full vote.

THE COURT: How’s that? In the full vote you
changed that? A. Yes.

Q. Given the fact that there are merits to both sides 
from a political science standpoint, Mr. Deese, wouldnt



531

you be in favor of voting for that forum that gave minor­
ity groups such as the black citizens of this county the best 
opportunity for full representation? A. I’m sorry, I’m 
not a political science [1546] expert. I don’t believe I 
could answer that. I have been elected to office but I’m not 
a political science expert.

MR. BLACKSHER: All right, sir.

THE COURT: Redirect, Mr. Lott?

MR. LOTT: Just one question to clarify something Mr. 
Deese testified about on cross.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

Q. Mr. Blacksher characterized the road that you 
paved with 48 percent of the money and you had said was 
for the benefit of the blacks. Let me get up to the 
mike. A. Please.

Q. Mr. Blacksher had characterized as a thoroughfare 
road the road that you had testified was to the benefit of 
blacks. Does that thoroughfare road lead from a county 
road system directly into a predominantly black neighbor­
hood? A. Yes, sir, it does.

Q. Does it exist on the other side in a thoroughfare 
style? A. It goes through the community and comes 
out on Pensacola Boulevard, which through the black 
community is basically paved all the way to Pensacola 
Boulevard but the [1547] west side of the Wedgewood 
area has no paved, had no paved outlet to the west for Navy 
Yard people, George Stone people or people going to St. 
Regis to work the back side, or the Southern Bell 
Telephone, which is on that west side, either. There was no 
paved access.



532

Q. Is it a thoroughfare road used principally for the 
benefit of the black neighborhood? A. Yes, sir. Well, I 
would say that blacks and whites will use it. It does create 
a good road to take the buses to the east from George 
Stone School area.

MR. LOTT: No further questions.

THE COURT: You may step down, Mr. Deese. Call 
your next witness, Mr. Lott.

MR. LOTT: We call Jack Kenney.

TESTIMONY OF JACK KENNEY

JACK KENNEY,
called as a witness by the defendants, being first duly 
sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. LOTT:

Q. Your Honor, if it please the Court, this is Jack 
Kenney, who resides at 1199 Ellyson Drive. He’s resided in 
Escambia County for twenty-three years. He’s forty-eight 
years of age. He’s self employed in the advertising 
business. He’s the county commissioner presently serving 
in the Board of County Commissioners for [1548] Es­
cambia County, residency District Four. Are the state­
ments that I’ve just made to the Court true and correct, 
Mr. Kenney? A. Yes, they are.

Q. Mr. Kenney, when did you first run for county 
commission? A. Nineteen seventy.

Q. Who were your opponents in that race? A. The 
incumbent was W. A. Davis. The other D e m o c ra tic  oppo­
nent was Nathaniel Dedmond.



533

Q. Was this in the Democratic primary? A. Yes.

Q. What’s the race of Mr. Dedmond? A. He’s 
black.

Q. Okay, what was the result of the first election in the 
primary? A. I won.

Q. Was there a runoff? A. No, there was not.

Q. You received a majority of the votes? A. Yes.

Q. After the election did you have occasion to have a 
conversation with Mr. Dedmond concerning the election? 
A. Yes, we had several.

[1549] Q. Did he make any statements to you concern­
ing his basis or his feeling for his defeat in the election? 
A. Only one.

Q. What comment was that? A. He said words to 
the effect, “My own people didn’t support me.”

Q. What did you take that to mean under the cir­
cumstances and context of what was said? A. I never 
have been able to really be sure whether he meant that the 
black community did not vote for him or the black com­
munity did not turn out to vote at all or in relatively small 
numbers.

Q. All right, sir. How did you conduct your campaign 
in 1970? A. It was basically a media campaign, 
primarily in the electronic media, since that was my area 
of recognition and expertise.

Q. Did you appear at any rallies or church congrega­
tion meetings which were organized for or for the benefit 
primarily of black voters? A. I appeared at all of the 
scheduled Democratic rallies. I don’t believe that in the 1970 
election, I don’t recall that there was a rally set up by any 
specific black organization per se.



534

[1550] Q. Did you appear at any predominantly black 
churches to speak? A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did you have any black persons who assisted you 
in your campaign? A. Yes, sir, I did.

Q. Who were they and what was the nature of their 
support? A. They were mostly assisting me in the area 
of distributing pamphlets, information, introducing me to 
black groups such as churches. I don’t recall that we had 
any telephone committee type of organization. It was not 
a formally organized campaign as such.

Q. Okay, now let’s look at your campaign in 1974, 
Basically what kind of campaign was that? A. It was 
also basically a media campaign around somewhat the 
same issues and some of the issues that had come up in my 
four years previous experience.

Q. Did any black citizens in the county assist in your 
campaign in that election? A. Yes, they did.

Q. Okay, who were your opponents in that election? 
A. In that election the opponents were Harry Ham and 
Tom Bailey in the Democratic Primary and Christopher 
Henson, a Republican, in the general.

[1551] Q. Did you win the Democratic Primary on the 
first ballot? A. Yes, sir, I did.

Q. You defeated the Republican in the general 
election? A. Yes.

Q. What were the issues that you felt were particular­
ly notable in the ’74 election? A. I think the fact that I 
had at least made great strides toward following up and 
accomplishing the only real promise I made in terms of the 
first election and that was the establishment of a county­
wide bus system. That was the primary thrust of that 
campaign.



535

Q. Okay, could you give the Court a brief history of 
the development of the bus and how it benefits the people 
of the county? A. The City of Pensacola had a 
management agreement with American Transit Company 
to run a bus system within the City of Pensacola. They 
found this no longer economically feasible so they drop­
ped the bus system and for several months we had no bus 
system. I felt that government owed mass transit services 
to its people and campaigned on that basis and was thus 
appointed as chairman of a joint city-county-legislative 
delegation transportation committee and our charge was 
to investigate [1552] the possibility of establishing a 
county bus system. We proceeded with the presumption 
that such a system was needed and it was a government 
function, and how the best way to fund it was really our 
charge so we applied for federal funds from the Urban 
Mass Transit Administration for the acquisition of four­
teen buses and the allied equipment. After the usual time 
for red tape and so on the grant was made and the buses 
were purchased and we started a county bus system under 
the auspices of the county and the city on a diminishing 
city bases.

Q. All right, sir, now you identify this as one of your 
campaign issues in ‘70 and 1974. Would you say that the 
fulfillment of that campaign promise was something you 
felt was necessary as far as your political future was con­
cerned? A. Well, I operate on the principle that you 
don’t promise anything you can’t deliver and you’d better 
deliver everything you promise if you want to be reelected, 
so I feel it was vital.

Q. Okay, what is the characteristic makeup of the peo­
ple who use and ride the Escambia County Transit System, 
if you can make such a generalization? A. Generally 
speaking I would say they are of the lower income bracket.



536

[1553] Q. What is the racial composition of those who 
use the Escambia Transit System predominantly? A. I 
don’t think we’ve made any surveys to that extent. It 
would strictly be my own opinion and riding on the buses. 
It would indicate probably 75 percent black.

Q. How was the scheduling of routing determined as 
to where the buses would go? A. Basically it was deter­
mined in the areas where the lower income people lived or 
were trying to get to, taking into account requested routes 
by petitions. We had several, many, many areas, 
neighborhoods, if you will, that said, “We would like a 
bus system.” We tried to run the buses there and are still 
running in many of them depending on the ridership and 
the availability of buses.

Q. Can you characterize the areas that are 
predominately served by the routing of the bus system? 
A. Well, I think that from the general downtown area it 
would be characterized as heading in the spokes of a wheel 
to and from the downtown area. We do run one route to 
the Naval Air Station. Generally speaking the rest would 
go to East Pensacola Heights, all the way out towards the 
Ensley area. We also have a bus that runs from Century to 
Pensacola.

[1554] Q. All right, sir, is this venture by the county a 
profit-making operation? A. No, sir.

Q. What kind of expense deficit is incurred by the 
county? A. I don’t have the exact figures but I would 
estimate somewhere in the neighborhood of three hundred 
thousand dollars per year deficit.

Q. And what is the purpose of funding the deficit as 
opposed to increasing the fares? A. There is a sort of a 
diminishing return. We found that if you increase the



537

rates, the fare rate, beyond a certain point, you decrease 
the ridership. And therefore increasing the rate does not 
increase the revenue. In fact it usualiy decreases it. We 
tried to hit a happy medium.

Q. Does the bus system operate solely within your 
residency district as a county commissioner? A. No, sir.

Q. Does it serve predominantly your area or residency 
district? A. No, sir.

Q. To what do you attribute the concern of the bus 
system as a commissioner from your residency district 
since it doesn’t serve particularly your area? A. [1555] 
Well, I have been elected on a countywide basis and I feel 
it’s my responsibility to serve the people of the county 
wherever they may live.

Q. Have you particularly sponsored any other county 
projects that are outside of your own district? A. Well, I 
have one now that I’m working on now and have been for 
a year or so, the creation of an artificial reef which is ac­
tually in the water and I guess it would be the commis­
sioner’s district in the Santa Rosa Island area if it were in 
any specific district. This is a countywide effort to which 
I’ve devoted a lot of time.

Q. Going back to your election and the constituency 
that you appeal to, could you basically describe for the 
Court the importance you attributed to the blacks in your 
1970 campaign and your 1974 campaign for county com­
mission as far as a component in your constituency to win 
an election? A. Well, in 1970 I was a little naive about 
how you put together a political organization. I didn’t 
have one per se but I did have volunteers, both white and 
black, who suggested they might help in a certain way. I 
gratefully took them up on this. This was a learning ex­



538

perience for me so that in 1974 I tried to organize in a bet­
ter manner and went to leaders of the black community 
and [1556] said. “Do you find it possible to support me 
and I will appreciate that support if you think I’ve done a 
good job.”I think that the contributions that they made, 
particularly in the 1974 campaign, were significant.

Q. Do you feel that as a county commissioner you’ve 
adequately represented the interest of black citizens in the 
county? A. I’ve certainly tried to.

Q. Do you feel that the black components of the con­
stituency in the county could be safely ignored by you in a 
campaign and insure your election? A. I’m sure it 
could not.

Q. Are you aware of any particular projects by the 
Board of County Commissioners in the area of paving that 
have benefited the black citizens of the county? A. There 
is one in particular that I’ve been involved in just recently 
that comes to mind first.

Q. What is that? A. That’s in the area in Canton­
ment, Welcome Circle.

Q. Were those funds that were appropriated by the 
Board of County Commissioners? A. They were funds 
from my paving district.

Q. In other words you used funds that were allocated 
to your district in the Cantonment area? [1557] Is the 
Cantonment area in your district? A. No, sir, it’s not. 
If I might explain, my district is basically on the east side 
of the county near the airport. We do not have the amount 
of unpaved roads that some of the other areas do. And 
even though my percentage is lower than some of the 
others I usually can take care of the most crying needs of



539

that district and have some left over to contribute to some 
of the other commissioners where they need it.

Q. Are you familiar with the community development 
block grant program that the county operates? A. Yes.

Q. Do those funds come to the county without 
substantial effort on the county’s part to receive them? 
A. No, there’s substantial effort.

Q. Once they’re received is there any requirement that 
they be allocated to any particular area or does the board 
decide what area will be benefited within the guidelines of 
the grants? A. It has to be within the guidelines of the 
grant.

Q. Mr. Kenney, the plaintiffs have made some conten­
tions about the advisory boards and committees and 
number of blacks that are appointed to them. Could you 
explain what your experience has been with regard to
[1558] appointment of blacks to advisory boards and 
committees? A. Most advisory boards in my experience 
have been appointed by individuals who have 
demonstrated an interest or expertise in a certain area. 
They have demonstrated this interest by civic work, by at­
tending meetings, by actively showing this interest in a 
positive way. They come forth and, if not volunteer, at 
least show their willingness to become an active part of the 
community in terms of helping in an advisory way. Most 
of the advisory committees are made on that basis, of, 
“This person has expressed an interest or desire to serve.”

Q. Are you aware of any black citizen who’s expressed 
an interest on being on such an advisory board or commit­
tee that has been refused? A. No, sir, I’m not.

Q. Mr. Kenney, there’s been some testimony today



540

concerning the proposed county charter that was con­
sidered by the board’s charter committee. Would you 
please explain how you voted as a member of the board 
and what factors you considered in reaching your deci­
sion. A. I voted for countywide representation. I voted 
for it basically on the premise that there are issues and 
problems that transcend district lines and perhaps did
[1559] not exist, these problems did not exist in, prior to 
1950 when the old road boards were in operation. The 
issues such as the transit system which I’ve just talked 
about in my opinion could not exist under a district vote 
where an individual commissioner, if he did have the idea 
that a transit system should be put in, would probably 
only be able to put it in his district, which would not be a 
transit system at all. The artificial reef is another thing. 
The water and sewer problem, the drainage problems that 
cover vast areas. Many of the urban problems that the 
county is faced with today it was not faced with several 
years ago. These problems in my opinion can not be solved 
without a countywide representation.

MR. LOTT: No further questions, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Cross examination?

CROSS EXAMINATION 

BY MR. MENEFEE:

Q. Commissioner Kenney, my name is Larry Menefee. 
I’m an attorney for the plaintiffs. Is Mr. Dedmond a 
respected member in the community? A. Yes, he is.

Q. Known for his truth and veracity? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you in the courtroom when he testified
[1560] the other day? A. No, sir, I wasn’t.



541

Q. Would you agree with his assessment that the black 
has little chance of election, that the present at-large 
system operates to exclude blacks? A. I can’t entirely 
agree with that, no. There have been several cases where 
it’s been a close race.

Q. All right, sir. Have you ever studied this statement 
that you attribute to Mr. Dedmond, have you ever studied 
the results of that election to try to gain some understan­
ding of what he meant? A. Yes, I have, not in great 
depth. I studied it to the extent of finding out what sort of 
numbers he had and what sort of numbers I had. I’m not 
really that familiar with an individual precinct to say this 
all went for me and this all went for him. All I know is I 
got all the precincts.

Q. That was in 1970? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Mr. Kenney, our statistical analysis indicates that 
in the 1970 elections, though the black turnout rate was 
below the white turnout rate in virtually every election that 
year by a substantial margin the black rate as to the 
Dedmond-Kenney-Davis race was, how shall I phrase
[1561] it, much, much, closer, much more equal to the 
white than in any other election run that year. The figures 
we have indicate a fall-off in the black participation of .39 
in your race with Mr. Dedmond whereas other elections 
show black fall-off rate of .77, .51, .73.

THE COURT: I doubt if he knows what fall-off rate is. 
Maybe you better refresh us both. What are you sug­
gesting those figures show? You’re getting into statistical 
theory with him.

MR. MENEFEE: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: What’s all this going to him about?



542

MR. MENEFEE: Your Honor, that in fact -

THE COURT: There’s testimony that these figures in­
dicate a certain thing. Now, that’s what you’re trying to get 
to, isn’t it?

MR. MENEFEE: Yes, sir. Yes, sir, these figures in­
dicate that blacks in fact turned out quite well for Mr. 
Dedmond.

THE COURT: Well, you brought that out. Now has he 
questioned that in any way?

MR. MENEFEE: Well, I’m trying to understand. He 
said that -

THE COURT: Oh, I see, yes.

MR. MENEFEE: As I understood what he said relating 
to Mr. Dedmond’s statement that Mr. Dedmond was com­
plaining, [1562] he didn’t understand exactly what Mr. 
Dedmond meant.

THE COURT: You’re talking about the statement that 
he says Mr. Dedmond told him they didn’t support him.

MR. MENEFEE: Yes, sir, I’m trying to understand his 
interpretation of it.

THE COURT: Perhaps you should have been asking 
Mr. Dedmond about it. This was not his statement. It was 
Mr. Dedmond’s statement. Have you made any statements 
about how well the blacks turned out to support you or 
Mr. Dedmond, Mr. Kenney? A. No, sir, I haven’t.

THE COURT: I didn’t recall any either.

Q. What’s your understanding of Mr. Dedmond’s 
statement?



543

THE COURT: His statement speaks for itself. He’s 
already said, “I don’t know whether it means they didn’t 
turn out or didn’t support him when they turned out.’ I 
remember Mr. Kenney’s statement. I think the matter 
you’re going into now is more properly addressed to Mr. 
Dedmond, not Mr. Kenney.

Q. Does that statement have any meaning to you?

THE COURT: Don’t bother to answer. He said it could 
have gone two ways, Counselor. I recall it, if you don’t. 
You’ve pursued this far enough.

[1563] Q. Mr. Kenney, about how much money did 
you spend in your campaign in 1970? You said you ran a 
media campaign. A. I think it was around ten or twelve 
thousand dollars.

Q. And in 1974 approximately A. Probably about 
fourteen.

Q. Okay, sir, where did you raise most o f those funds? 
A. Knocking on doors.

Q. Can you give us a rough breakdown as to how 
much you raised in the black community as opposed to the 
white? A. No, sir, I can’t. I’m sorry.

Q. And soliciting votes in the black community, you 
said you contacted churches? A. Yes.

Q. Are black churches a leading institution or some of 
the primary institutions you solicited for campaigns in the 
black community? A. They were some o f the leading in­
stitutions.

Q. What other institutions in the black community? 
you said you contacted churches? A. Yes.



544

Q. Are black churches a leading institution or some of 
the primary institutions you solicited for campaigns in the 
black community? A. They were some of the leading in­
stitutions.

Q. What other institutions in the black community? 
A. I was asked to appear at Abe’s 506 Club.

Q. What is Abe’s 506 Club? [1564] A. It’s a night 
club.

Q. It’s not a social, not a fraternity as such, is it? 
A. It’s not a closed club. It’s open to the public.

Q. Okay, sir. Any others? A. No organized institu­
tions.

Q. Okay, sir. Mr. Kenney, would you agree with me as 
to this bus system that there are many functions served by 
a mass transit system such as that including energy conser­
vation, the economy of the area, and that it is not solely 
for the benefit of the riders themselves? A. I would 
agree to the extent that it is energy-conserving if we can get 
people that are riding in Ford cars to ride the bus. If they’ll 
leave the automobile. We haven’t found as a practical mat­
ter that it happens. It sounds great in theory but it hasn’t 
worked for us.

Q. And consumers are able to get to the shopping 
centers? A. Yes.

Q. Who otherwise are not, and it stimulates business? 
A. Yes.
[1565] Q. Mr. Kenney, this is plaintiffs’ exhibit number 
66. It’s I think, actually supplied by your office. It’s a list 
of the various boards and committees which you and the 
other commissioners make appointments to. The first two 
sheets are a summary giving the name of the committee



545

with a racial breakdown o f the various members. On the 
second sheet there is a total which indicates three hundred 
ninety-five whites have been appointed to these commit­
tees and twenty-three blacks. We’ve counted thirty-nine 
separate committees. You said one o f the, you said you 
were glad to appoint any citizens that came forward. Do 
you have any idea why more blacks don’t come forward? 
Are they not interested in government? A. I couldn’t tell 
you.

Q. Do you think they view your office as open and ac­
cessible? A. Yes, I do.

Q. Then why don’t they come forward if they view it 
that way? A. You tell me.

Q. I was hoping maybe you could tell me.

THE COURT: He said he didn’t know. Let’s proceed, 
Counselor.

Q. Do you know o f qualified blacks that would be 
willing to serve? [1566] A. Yes, Sir, I do.

[1566] Q. Are they serving? A. Many o f them.

Q. Twenty-three? Mr. Kenney, on this community 
development block grant funds did you actively par­
ticipate in formulating the request for CD funds? 
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And is it not a present assessment o f needs o f low 
income neighborhoods? A. Yes, it is.

Q. This is the 1977 community, let me see, I’ll identify 
the exhibit for the Court. It’s plaintiffs’ exhibit number 78. 
It’s the community development application from the 
county, 1977, and going into what’s designated as page 
two of thirty-eight pages lists the five areas o f need. I



546

would call, there’s three on the first page. Going on the se­
cond page there are two more areas. In particular the fifth 
area, I call your attention to it. It denotes that the area of 
Cantonment and Century have an urgent need for com­
munity facilities, particularly sanitary sewage facilities, 
and points out serious health problems in these areas, et 
cetera, goes into housing demands. Do those areas have 
substantial black populations? A. Yes.

[1567] Q. So when this was filed as a request for funds 
it was the assessment of you and the others who filed this 
that these areas were in serious need as compared to other 
areas in the county, is that correct?

MR. LOTT: Your Honor, within the stipulation the 
plaintiffs have conceded they don’t contest our respon­
siveness on the issue of water or sewerage.

THE COURT: Isn’t that correct, Counselor?

MR. MENEFEE: Judge, I’m talking about the CD
funds.

THE COURT: You’re talking about CD funds but still 
getting into responsiveness on water and so forth, aren’t 
you? It’s covered under the stipulation regardless of where 
the funds came from. You weren’t contesting unrespon­
siveness in that area.

MR. MENEFEE: Okay, Your Honor. Yes, Your
Honor, that’s certainly correct. This also, I just read com­
munity recreational facilities.

THE COURT: Let’s proceed on. We could take a lot of 
time getting into things and I think you’re getting into a 
stipulated area.

Q. So that was the present assessment as to the needs 
of the community, the particular needs, is that correct? 
A. Yes.



547

[1568] Q. I think that’s about it, Mr. Kenney, except 
when you ran in 1970 was Mr. Davis the incumbent? 
A. Yes, sir, he was.

THE COURT: Mr. Kenney, let me ask you something. 
You said you believed a black man could get elected in this 
county. We have about two-thirds white, one-third black. 
On the reverse side o f that token -

MR. LOTT: Your Honor, the percentage is about 19 
percent black in the county.

THE COURT: Only 19 percent in the county?

MR. LOTT: Yes, sir. The one-third, two-thirds, is in the 
city.

THE COURT: Is that voter registration?

MR. CARR: The registered electorate in the county is 
about 16 or 17 percent.

THE COURT: Yet you still believe that with that pro­
portion between the registered white and black, a black 
could be elected? A. Yes, sir, I do.

THE COURT: On the reverse side o f that coin, if you 
have an area divided in this county where you had, say 
divided in an area where the reverse were true and in that 
particular district the blacks were some 75 or 80 percent
[1569] and you were running in a district, could a white 
man be elected? A. If he was the right man I think he 
could, Your Honor.

THE COURT: You think he could if he was the right 
man? A. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: You don’t believe there’s any polarized 
voting by race in this county? A. I would hope there 
isn’t.



548

THE COURT: But you must believe there is, of course, 
to make that averment. A. To some degree there is.

THE COURT: Anything else with Mr. Kenney

MR. MENEFEE: No, sir.

THE COURT: Any redirect?

MR. Lott: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Kenney, again as a commissioner 
you may step down.



549

TESTIMONY OF A.J. BOLAND 

[1763 A] A.J. Boland,

called as a witness by the defendants, being first duly 
sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. CATON:

Q. Your Honor, this is Mr. A. J. Boland. He’s cur­
rently the chairman o f the Democratic Executive Commit­
tee for Escambia County. He is a principal in the local 
system, has been in the local system for how long, Mr. 
Boland? A. In Escambia County since 1953.

Q. Is that correct about the other information I gave 
about your background? A. Yes, I am the chairman o f  
the Escambia County Executive Committee and I am the 
principal o f Oakcrest Elementary School.

Q. How long have you been a member o f the Ex­
ecutive Committee and how long have you been chair­
man? A. I’ve been a member o f the committee, I 
believe, since about 1972.

Q. And how long have you been chairman? 
A. Since, that would have been December, 1974.

Q. December o f ’74? A. Right. I was elected chair­
man. I was elected to the committee in March o f ’74 during 
the [1764] presidential primary but we didn’t have the 
reorganization o f the committee till December o f ’74 and 
was elected chairman at that time and I was reelected again 
in 1976.

Q. Could you describe to us briefly what the 
Democratic Executive Committee is and how it operates? 
A. Well, the committee is composed o f precinct people,



550

men and women who are elected from each precinct in the 
county during presidential primaries. After their election 
there’s an organizational committee and they elect -

Q. Elected by whom? A. Oh, the committee people 
are elected by the Democratic voters in each precinct, the 
registered Democratic voters in each precinct.

Q. Yes, sir. Go ahead. A. All right, after the 
primary election where these people are elected in the 
precinct then we have an organizational meeting and we 
elect the officers of the committee to serve for the four- 
year period. The nine officers that we have are the chair­
man, the vice-chairman, secretary-treasurer. We have, at 
that time we elected an audit committee composed of three 
members, one of whom is chairman. Then we elected a 
state committeeman and state [1765] committeewoman.

Q. So there are nine officers. Could you tell us who 
the current officers are? A. All right, I’m the chair­
man. Dorothy Devalt is the vice-chairman.

Q. Could you tell us the race of each person as you go 
along? A. All right, I’m white, of course, and Dr. 
Devalt is black. She’s the vice-chairman. Betty Park is 
secretary. She’s a white person. John Reed is the treasurer. 
He’s a black person. Beverly Mills is chairman of the audit 
committee. She’s white. Cleveland McWilliams is a 
member of the audit committee. He’s black. Bill Lamar is 
a member of the audit committee. He’s white. William 
Marshall is black and he is our state committeeman and 
he’s also the state treasurer.

Q. He holds a state office as well as a local office? 
A. Yes, the state committee has three officers; a chair­
man, a vice-chairman and a treasurer.

THE COURT: You don’t need to bother going into



551

that. That is uncontested on the record before us. Go 
ahead. A. Olivia Jones is the last member and she’s 
white.

[1766] Q. And what’s the approximate total member­
ship o f the executive committee? A. A Hundred sixty- 
five.

Q. And o f those do you know how many are white 
and how many are black? A. Yes, there are thirty-three 
black. I have a list o f their names here if you would like 
that. Thirty-three black.

Q. Yes, sir. A. And that’s a percentage, I believe, o f 
approximately 20 percent, and in the Democratic Party in 
the county the overall registration is, the black is about 15 
percent o f the toal Democratic registration and the 
membership on our committee, though, is 20 percent, and 
then o f course the number o f officers who are black on 
our committee is four out o f nine or approximately 45 
percent.

Q. I see. Could you give us a little more detail as to the 
function o f the committee, what it actually does, what the 
purpose o f it is? A. Well, the purpose o f the committee 
is to support the Democratic Party and its nominees and to 
do anything that’s proper and fitting according to custom 
and law and party rules in behalf of the Democratic Party. 
We have political rallies at election years during primaries.
[1767] We try to assume a role o f neutrality in the 
Democratic Primaries because we have our own people 
running against each other and that’s in the family.

Q. Yes, sir. A. So we assume a role o f neutrality 
during the primaries. After the primaries are over, though, 
and we have Democrats run against Republicans, we sup­
port our nominees. In the primaries we have political



552

rallies. We have TV rallies in which we give our candidates 
exposure to the public so that they present their cases.

THE COURT: You’ve given enough detail. Go ahead, 
Mr. Caton.

Q. Mr. Boland, you say the committee supports the 
Democratic candidate in the runoff. In the primary you 
try to take a neutral position?

MR. BLACKSHER: No, sir, he didn’t say in the
runoff. He said in the general election, may it please the 
Court.

THE COURT: He said in the general election.

MR. CATON: Excuse me, general election.

THE COURT: I think his position is clear and it’s clear 
from other evidence. I thought it was even stipulated the 
Democratic Party takes no position in the Democratic 
Primaries but supports its candidate in the general elec­
tion. Isn’t that what you’re saying to us? [1768] A. 
Yes, sir. Now, there are two primaries oftentimes.

THE COURT: And you take no position in either
primary? A. In either one of those.

THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Caton.

Q. In supporting the candidate in the general election 
does it make any difference as to the race of that can­
didate, whether or not the committee supports him? 
A. No, sir, no difference whatever. We don’t ask them 
whether they’re black or white or man or woman or what 
their religion is. If it’s a Democratic nominee then we treat 
them equally.

Q. Do you recall the election in 1974 when Mr. 
Jenkins, a black man, ran against Mr. Leeper in the runoff 
election? A. This was before I -



553

Q. Mr. Leeper, I believe, was a Republican, was he 
not? A. Right, this was before 1 became chairman. I 
became chairman in December o f ’74 and at that time the 
elections had already been held. I do recall the election, 
though, yes.

Q. Okay, do you know if the Democratic Committee 
[1769] supported Mr. Jenkins? A. To the best o f my 
knowledge they did, yes. Now, I was not one of the elected 
officers at that time and I can not tell you to what extent 
but I voted for Mr. Leeper and I know that many others -

Q. Who did you vote for? A. Excuse me, I voted for 
Mr. Jenkins. I voted for Mr. Jenkins and I know many 
other Democrats who support him also.

Q. Yes, sir. Mr. Boland - A. Could I add this?

Q. Yes, sir. A. I didn’t really support Mr. Jenkins 
solely because he was a party nominee. Now, he’s a college 
professor and I knew some of my students had gone to 
school out there who gave him an excellent reputation and 
they said he’s a good teacher and he’s fair to his students 
and there were other factors to be considered also, but I 
did support him in that election, yes, sir.

Q. Could you tell us briefly, Mr. Boland, whether 
there are any either legal or practical restrictions on any 
black person or persons of races other than white in the ac­
cess to the Democratic Executive Committee? [1770] 
A. No, sir. None whatever. We cooperate with Joe 
Oldmixon, the Supervisor of Elections, in getting new peo­
ple to register, and of course we’re not the only ones. The 
League of Women Voters, other groups do this also, and 
we try to get as many people to register or to reregister if 
they’ve been dropped. So the door is open. Anyone can 
register. Secondly, once they’ve been registered, well, we



554

have get-out-the vote campaigns and that’s for all the 
precincts, for all groups and all races to get out the vote. 
And -

THE COURT: You’ve answered the question, I think.

Q. All right.

Q. How do you become a member? What do you have 
to do in order, is there any qualification other than to be a 
Democrat or what?

Q. To be a member of the Democratic Committee?

Q. Yes, sir. A. There are two ways you can become 
a member. One you can go down to the Supervisor of 
Elections’ office during election time and qualify in your 
precinct and run like anyone else. Now, if no one runs and 
there’s a vacancy then the committee by a majority vote 
can fill vacancies. So when we have meetings almost every 
member who knows of a person in the precinct where we 
have a [1771] vacancy can recommend that person and 
by majority vote he could be elected to membership in the 
committee. There are no restrictions. Now, well, there is 
one restriction and that’s in reference to sex. We can only 
have one committeeman and one committeewoman from 
each precinct except precincts where there are a thousand 
or more registered Democrats and in that case we can have 
two men or two women, but that has nothing to do with 
race.

Q. I see. How about party headquarters? How about 
the access of black citizens to party headquarters? How 
does that operate? A. During the general election of 
1976 we did open party headquarters down at 810 North 
Pace Boulevard and during the course of the presidential 
campaign we had three employees, clerk type people, work­
ing in the office, making telephone calls and sometimes



555

going out to the precincts and carrying groups of 
volunteers to do precinct work, distribute literature and 
things like that. There were three people employed in 
there. Two of them were white, one was a black. The black 
person was Esther Williams, a young school teacher.

THE COURT: You’ve given us a lot of background but 
he wants to know whether there was access of blacks. 
A. Yes, sir, definitely.

[1772] THE COURT: All right, sir, l think you’ve
answered the question.

Q. Have there been situations, who is physically at 
party headquarters during an election, during a runoff 
election, say the last one? A. Well -

Q. General election, excuse me. A. During ’76 when 
we had the election, I refer to ‘76 because we did not have, 
on nonelection years, ‘77, we do not have an open head­
quarters and we don’t have one as of yet this year, but in 
’76 the three people who worked there were on a staggered 
schedule. Then we had many volunteers who come in and 
out and then the officers of the committee go in and any 
member of the committee can go in there. The candidates 
could come in and out. The candidates have, they can put 
up card tables and put their literature on the table.

THE COURT: Mr. Caton, you don’t need all this
background information.

MR. CATON: Your Honor, not all; just I think this is 
my last question and it will be pretty brief.

THE COURT: All right, sir.

Q. Tell us about the tables at the party headquarters. 
A. Each candidate could have a card table with
[1773] his literature on it and he could use the telephones



556

in to the office. He could use whatever voter lists we had 
there. Now, all of the candidates, of our Democratic can­
didates, had access to this.

Q. This includes the black candidates as well as white 
candidates? A. Yes.

Q. After the primary is over and it’s time for the 
general election is there still activity at party headquarters?
A. Well, this has been the most of our activity then. 

We’re low key during the primaries and the party head­
quarters really has a more sustained drive to get 
Democrats to vote and vote Democratic in the general 
election than we do in the primary. We’re low key during 
the primary.

Q. In the last election when school board members, 
say, were being elected, were there black citizens as well as 
white citizens active in the general election at Democratic 
Headquarters? A. Oh, yes, very much so.

Q. Did you see them there personally? A. Yes, sir. 
Yes, sir, many of them.

Q. Were there any black candidates in that general 
election or had they lost in the primary? [1774] A. 
Dr. Spence was a candidate during that time and Mr. 
Jenkins was a candidate.

Q. We’re talking about ’76? A. Yes.

Q. Yes. A. They were candidates.

Q. Did they lose in the first primary or were they not 
successful? A. They lost in the second primary.

Q. So they were not in the runoff.

Q. The activity where the black citizens were there as



557

well as the white was in the runoff elections that you’re 
referring to as well as the primaries? A. Yes.

MR. CATON: That’s all.

THE COURT: Any cross examination? Any cross ex­
amination, gentlemen?

MR. BLACKSHER: Yes, Your Honor. We’re fighting 
over who’s going to get it.

THE COURT: Beg pardon?

CROSS EXAMINATION 

BY MR. BLACKSHER:

Q. Mr. Boland, are there any national party re­
quirements on participation of minorities on the local 
[1775] committee? A. The national party adopted an 
affirmative action plan and it was subsequently adopted 
by the state and we participate in this too and in fact this 
list of thirty-three people here is our affirmative action 
people who were recommended to participate from 
Escambia County.

THE COURT: Mr. Boland, we’ll do better if you
answer questions specifically. You’re full of your subject 
and have a lot of background but we’ll get along, he’ll 
bring out what we need to know. You wanted to know if 
they had some affirmative action program?

MR. BLACKSHER: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: He’s now given you some details. Go 
ahead, Mr. Blacksher. You want to ask him something 
else about it? A. Specifically what is your question 
then?



558

Q. I think you answered it. I asked if there was a 
national requirement.

THE COURT: I think he’s answered and given you 
more detail than you’ve really asked for. I was just sug­
gesting some of the questions you can answer yes or no. 
We’ll see how it goes. Go ahead, Mr. Blacksher.

Q. Mr. Boland, are you satisfied with the success the 
local Democratic Party has had in promoting 
the [1776] candidacy of its black candidates? A. 
Well in ’76 we weren’t promoting any candidates in the 
primaries and blacks did not make it to the general elec­
tion so we had no opportunity there to promote them in 
the general election. But they, I don’t know how I can 
answer your question on that. I cannot answer for 
previous administrations or past boards of the committee 
but in ’76 the blacks had equal opportunity and equal ac­
cess -

THE COURT: Mr. Boland, you’ve answered the ques­
tion the best you can. You have no statement with respect 
to that question is what it amounts to. Anything else with 
this witness?

MR. BLACKSHER: No, except to note there was no 
testimony by this witness concerning the city case.

MR. CATON: I’m conducting this examination on
behalf of the school board.

MR. BLACKSHER: I think that illustrates how we’re 
all in this together, Judge.

THE COURT: You can make that in argument to me 
later on, if you wish to. I don’t know what you want. Is 
this witness excused from further attendance?

MR. CATON: Yes, Your Honor. We would like to call 
John Broxson.



559

THE COURT: Mr. Boland, thank you for being here. 
[1777] You’re excused from further attendance.
A. Thank you, Your Honor.

* * * * *



560

TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE GREEN

[1991] LAWRENCE GREEN,

Called as a witness by the defendants, being first duly 
sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. FLEMING:

Q. Your Honor, the witness is Mr. Lawrence Green. 

THE COURT: Has he been sworn here?

MR. FLEMING: Yes, he was, Your Honor.

[1992] THE COURT: All right, proceed.

Q. Mr. Green, I understand, is sixty-four years old. 
He’s a black citizen of Escambia County. His address is 
8720 Hinson Street in the Ensley area of Escambia Coun­
ty. Mr. Green is the precinct committee chairman for 
voting precinct number 53. Is that correct, Mr. Green? 
A. Yes. sir, it’s right.

Q. Mr. Green, will you explain to the Court -

THE COURT: When you say voting precinct chair­
man, you mean the Democratic Precinct Chairman? 
A. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: That’s what we’re talking about, Mr. 
Green? A. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: All right, sir. Go ahead.

Q. Thank you for correcting me, Your Honor. Will 
you explain to the Court what you do as precinct chair­
man, what the official duties are and how you perform 
those duties, please. A. My duty is to see, get as many 
people registered as I can. And on election day my duty is



561

to make sure that all elderly and people that don’t have 
automobiles and everything get to the polls.

Q. How do you go about doing that, Mr. Green?
[1993] A. Every way that we can by people that are 
running, and the Democratic Party this last time give a 
hundred fifty dollars to make sure that we did get the peo­
ple out in the Ensley area. If I may say so, as you know, 
Ensley formerly was Fig City and has become the largest, 
practically, voting area that we’ve got now in Escambia 
County.

Q. Okay, the racial makeup o f that precinct, is it 
mixed black and white? A. It is.

Q. How long have you been the precinct commit­
teeman, Mr. Green? A. This is my second term. My 
term expires 1980.

Q. And your first term began when, so we’ll have the 
time frame? A. It was two years at the time, four years 
ago.

Q. Mr. Green, have you been involved in politics in 
Escambia County for a period o f time prior to that? 
A. Oh, yes, sir. I really go way back.

Q. Have you been active in the campaign efforts of 
particular candidates for office and, if so, which can­
didates and what is your involvement in their campaigns?
[1994] A. County commission, sheriff, state attorney, 
judges.

Q. How far back does your involvement in these cam­
paigns go? A. Oh, way before Mr. Westmark’s time, the 
late Mr. Westmark.

Q. That would have been prior to - A. And T. C. 
McCoy, Mr. Cobb, Bill Powell.



562

THE COURT: How many years are we talking about 
approximately, Mr. Green? A. Well, ever since that 
we’ve -

THE COURT: I mean how many years does this go 
back approximately? A. Oh, this goes back thirty years 
to me.

THE COURT: All right, sir, go ahead.

Q. How, if you would, describe some of the can­
didates that you’ve been principally involved with over 
that period of time, and by no means, I’m not asking you 
to list them all but explain how you’ve been involved in 
some of those campaigns. A. First let me say the 
precinct committeeman, I have so many people running 
for office come by and talk with me. As you know, I was 
an elected official just like everybody else and all I can ex­
press to any candidate when he comes out is this. He says, 
“Can I get [1994] your support?” If I agree to vote for 
him, then when others come and ask me, “Who are you 
voting for,” all I can tell them is who I’m voting for. I can’t 
tell them they vote for this man or that man. I tell them 
who I’m voting for and if they think he’s got a good 
enough platform and have sold himself on them I guess 
they vote for him too.

Q. Do large numbers of voters come to you and seek 
your advice due to your having conversed with member of 
political candidates? A. That’s why I’m late. I was in 
Cantonment on that same subject at an office today. 
That’s where I was.

Q. You were talking with voters about candidates? 
A. They was talking, and if you want to know who they 
were talking about, they was talking about the governor’s 
race, and I don’t know them, I can’t tell them who.



563

Q. Give the Court, if you would, an indication of how 
many candidates there are who come to see you during the 
election campaigns, just so the Judge will be aware of the 
extent of your involvement in local political activity. 
A. Well, everyone running. I would say everybody run­
ning in Escambia County goes by [1996] Lawrence 
Green’s house if they’re running. I believe I can say that. 
There’s nobody that I could say don’t go by.

Q. And do they come by actively seeking your sup­
port? A. They come by and they, the biggest of the 
candidates, when they come by they want to know where 
the voters are at in Ensley, where they live, so that they can 
go and see them and shake hands with them personally 
themselves. They say, “You have the list of them. Give 
them to me.” Some of them bring their secretary. They sit 
under my tree out there and type out the names of all the 
lists of voters in 28, 53, 101, 69, 37 and 112 and 111. They 
check them out and they goes around to check them and 
see them and talk to them their personal self. They say, “I 
want to know where they live so I can go.”

Q. Now, are these candidates who come to see you, 
are they mostly black candidates, mostly white can­
didates? A. All of them, black and white.

Q. Virtually every one of them? A. Everyone of 
them. I can name you every one. Every one I named 
previously have been to sit and talk with me.

Q. Well, let’s talk about the campaigns, some 
of [1997] the recent candidates for office. I would ap­
preciate it, if you would prefer it that I do it another way, I 
would appreciate it if you discuss them as they come to 
mind, those most vividly to you, so we won’t waste a lot of 
time with some you don’t have a recollection with. Explain 
to the Court some of the recent campaigns as you’ve ex­
perienced them, how the blacks and how the whites have



564

made efforts to solicit your support and what you’ve done 
for them. A. For instance, say Mr. Lancaster. I don’t 
think he’d mind me using that. This last election he moved 
his campaign in Ensley and he moved it out there because 
he wanted to be where the voters were together and go see 
them. And he called people. He visited them out there, 
both black and white. He didn’t just visit me alone. He 
went to everybody’s house he could call and he went to see 
them. And he got the votes.

Q. What about Commissioner Kelson, Kenneth 
Kelson? A. Mr. Kelson did the same thing.

Q. What about Commissioner - A. Mr. Beck, same 
thing.

Q. What about Commissioner Jack Kenney? A. He 
didn’t visit Ensley too well.

Q. Jack Kenney hasn’t come to visit? [1998] 
A. No, he did not.

Q. How about Commissioner Charles Deese? A. He 
lives there, been there all his days. He was born and raised 
there in Fig City so he’s all over there.

Q. How about the members of the school board? Do 
the members of the school board come to you and seek 
your support and seek the votes of the people in your com­
munity as well? A. On the school board system, this is 
my twenty-ninth year of my wife driving a school bus and 
the school board has a policy they don’t care too much 
about the employees being too much in politics and that’s 
my wife and I try to stay just as level on that as I can 
because I wouldn’t want to see a school board member be 
elected and say, “Your husband ran around here and 
fought me.” So I stay as level with them. I helped Mr. 
Stokes, if you might want to know about that. He’ll tell 
you the same thing.



565

Q. Now - A. He’s the superintendent o f public in­
struction now.

Q. So far we’ve mentioned white candidates for office 
and those who have successfully been elected to office. Do 
these candidates, white candidates for office, [1999] 
repeatedly come around to your house or do you only see 
them at election time? Is their politicking continuous or is 
it just election day? A. Till 7:00 o’clock election night 
you still see them out working. They never gives up. Your 
arm gets tired o f shaking hands.

Q. How about between elections? A. Same thing.

Q. Now I would like you, if you would, please, Mr. 
Green, to explain your experience with respect to the 
amount o f such political activity from black candidates 
for office. For instance, Mr. Elmer Jenkins. Has Mr. 
Jenkins come to see you in the same fashion? A. Mr. 
Jenkins came out and visited me very often. The last three 
weeks he didn’t, and my boys, one o f them, the one in 
business, was handling all o f Mr. Jenkins’ transportation, 
as much as he could, as much as he was able in this last 
election.

Q. You say as much as he was able. What do you 
mean by that, sir? A. He went about five hundred 
gallons o f gas for automobiles, I believe, you know, for 
transportation.

Q. And has Mr. Jenkins come around to keep up con­
tracts between elections in the same manner that some of 
the other candidates you spoke about do? [2000] 
A. Mr. Jenkins did not do that in the last three weeks 
and he’s sitting over there and I’m saying he did not visit 
Ensley. I don’t think he did it because he didn’t, hadn’t 
checked the records to find out that Ensley was as strong a 
voting area as it was. Quite a few of the candidates hadn’t



566

checked that with Mr. Oidmixon’s office to find out those 
precincts are pretty heavily population of voters and 
maybe Mr. Jenkins during the time was think that he was 
better off, I reckon, in the city, which I don’t know too 
much about city elections, and that’s what come in.

Q. Are you suggesting Mr. Jenkins didn’t make the ef­
fort he might have? A. To my opinion Mr. Jenkins 
slacked off in the last three weeks.

Q. And you’re speaking of which campaign? Seventy- 
six? A. This last one, this time he ran with Mr. Bailey.

Q. Did you have the same experience with respect to 
his ’74 campaign for school board? A. I don’t think so 
because Mr. Jenkins was pretty well on Mr. Leeper that 
time.

Q. You’re saying he ran a better campaign in ’74 than 
he did in ’76? [2001] A. No, I think he was better
than Mr. Bailey, I feel that, countywide. I’m talking about 
countywide, Judge. He was countywide better on this last 
than he was previous according to my record.

Q. I’m about to go on to another subject matter, Mr. 
Green. Before I do I’ll ask you, are there other races or 
other candidates for local office which you think are ex­
emplary or good examples of the type of activity, the type 
of campaigning for political office that black or white can­
didates make in the committee precincts? A. You’d bet­
ter come back and explain that a little more and let me see 
what you’re talking about.

Q. What I’m getting at, I’m just trying to bring out the 
examples. A. I mean what you meant. You’re saying 
between black candidates and white?

Q. 1 would like you to compare for us, if you would, 
the relative efforts of black candidates and white can­
didates for votes in your precinct and those precincts -



567

THE COURT: The relative ethics?

MR. FLEMING: Efforts.

THE COURT: Efforts. A. Well, you know yourself 
a lot o f blacks don’t just vote for blacks. They vote for the 
man that they think [2002] is most qualified. I think 
that’s out, to say that all blacks are going to vote for 
blacks. They won’t do that because they have people that 
they think about just like the white do.

Q. Do you not share the opinion o f some that a black 
voter needs to have a black representative? A. They 
don’t vote for blacks just because the black is running. 
There’s a lot o f people in Escambia County votes for the 
man they think is best qualified. That’s who they vote for.

Q. Well, with respect to the qualifications, if what you 
say is true then those persons who have been elected to of­
fice might be the most qualified so I would like to get on 
to, without being argumentative I would like to get on to 
the next subject and ask you if you would describe your 
experience with respect to the responsiveness o f the local 
white officials who’ve been elected to office after these 
campaigns and how responsive they are to the needs o f the 
county’s black citizens. Begin, if  you would - A. I think 
I can answer that. At the present time I’ll use the county 
commission on that. The county commission at the pre­
sent that we have in office, they don’t, not, I don’t believe, 
to my opinion, look at a voter after the election because 
any taxpayer can call [2003] any one o f the county 
commissioners and tell him, “I live in Bratt, the north end 
of the county, Bratt. I want you to come up here im­
mediately. I want you to see somebody.” And one of them 
is going. It doesn’t make any difference about that.

Q. Have you had that experience? A. Sure, I’ve had 
that this past week.



568

Q. How about your neighbors? You may be a par­
ticularly influential person who can get results that 
somebody else can’t get. Do you have similar experience 
with respect to your neighbors’ ability to get service from 
county commissioners? A. If you’re asking, we have a 
problem right now in Ensley on Stockdale Road and the 
neighbors are real upset. They continue to tell me they’re 
not going to vote for Mr. Beck because they won’t grade 
Stockdale. That is the street. The street is the thing, that 
the county can’t get a drainage system. The highway patrol 
lives down there, has got a fish pond. Mr. Johnson says 
he’s not going to run it on his and the other man is not go­
ing to run it on his so their hands are tied until they get it, 
and quite naturally, some of the blacks say the county 
commission is no good, but they have to have drainage. 
They have to have right-of-way. They’ve got two places 
right in my community, they can’t grade the [2004] road 
through because some of the houses are sitting in the right- 
of-way. Thirdly, you have to give the county commission 
thirty-three feet off your property, thirty-three off the 
other, to get a route. A lot of our people, both white and 
black, say, “I ain’t going to give the county no right-of- 
way, they’re going to buy it.” The State Road Department 
is the only ones going to buy a right-of-way and when they 
don’t do that they don’t get a road and the county commis­
sion is no good.

Q. I believe you have particular experience, particular 
knowledge in that regard of Airway Drive, which is in the 
vicinity of a neighborhood, It’s in the same neighborhood 
in which you live and to which Mr. Sam Adams spoke 
about and which I understand Mr. Robert Jackson is a 
resident of that neighborhood. Will you explain. A. Mr. 
Robert Jackson lives one house off Airway Drive and it’s 
paved. During the time when Airway Drive was paved the



569

blacks give a right-of-way from Johnson Avenue which 
goes north from Ensley school. It got down to the white 
settlement, just across on the end o f the black settlement, 
and the white refused to give a right-of-way and the coun­
ty commissioners stopped blacktopping right there. They 
did not do it until [2005] the whites signed the same 
things the black signed before they would pave it.

Q. Are you saying the black road got paved first? 
A. It got paved first, Airway Drive.

Q. What about the, have you experienced that only 
the commissioner from your residency district has been 
helpful in getting things done in the north end and in the 
Ensley area or have you gotten help from other commis­
sioners as well? A. Before, well, I’m going back a little 
bit so some o f you will know about it. You’re not my age. 
Before this was countywide as it is now District Five, I 
know in the time Mr. T.C. McCoy, a grader would break 
down and he didn’t have money to fix it with.

Q. T. C. McCoy? Before you go on, T. C. McCoy was 
a county commissioner prior to the change to at-large? 
A. Yes, District Five didn’t get the funds to operate o ff 
as the other four districts and it has always been a trend 
that they just didn’t get none. But since this has been like it 
is now and the county, everybody votes for county com­
missioner and does so, we have been beginning to get more 
roads from here to the north end of the county. We’ve not 
got them, we’re still far behind, there are plenty o f roads 
that are not paved, but we are [2006] getting better 
than we were since this has been beginning.

Q. Do you think it’s the fault o f the county com­
missioners that there are a number of unpaved roads? 
A. Well, during the past, as I aforesaid, that the county



570

commissioners in Districts One, Two, Three and Four 
would not allot the money for District Five is the largest 
there is because it goes all the way to the Alabama line and 
extends straight across Olive Road and goes to the north 
end of the county. It’s a large thing and the funds always 
was low.

Q. Now, sir, have you had similar experiences with 
respect to the responsiveness and the works of members of 
the school board? How have the school board members 
treated you in that regard, those that have been elected? 
A. I haven’t had no trouble with nobody in the school 
system. As I aforesaid, I have a wife with twenty-nine 
years and I didn’t go into that too far because 1 didn’t want 
some member of the school board being elected and turn 
around and say, “Well, your old man run around here and 
hurt me so I’m going to hurt you.” I stayed away from that 
as much as I can. I helped Mr. Charlie Stokes and that’s 
about as far as I went. I don’t [2007] want to talk about 
the members of the school board. I would rather not.

Q. By not talking about them do you mean to suggest 
they haven’t been responsive to the needs of your com­
munity? A. I haven’t seen anything they’ve done 
wrong.

Q. You haven’t seen what, sir? A. I haven’t seen 
nothing so far they’ve done wrong.

Q. Okay, thank you. Now, I haven’t asked you par­
ticularly about the city council because as I understand 
you haven’t been involved with the politics of the City of 
Pensacola. A. No, sir, I do not bother with the city 
council. Anything north from Brent Lane to the Alabama 
line I’m willing to talk with you about but when you come 
on downtown I don’t bother with that because I don’t live 
in the city limits.



571

Q. Now, apart from the downtown area in the City of 
Pensacola, Mr. Green, I don’t think this has been done 
before, will you explain to the Court where the principal 
areas in Escambia County are where black people live 
other than downtown. A. Right at the present time 
you’re asking a question that I can’t exactly answer 
because right in my [2008] neighborhood right now in 
these new subdivisions the blacks are buying and moving 
in all o f them so they’re wherever you go right now.

THE COURT: Are you in or outside o f the city limits? 
A. Out o f the city limits.

THE COURT: Are you in or out? A. I’m out o f the 
city limits.

THE COURT: You wanted to find out outside o f the 
city limits where the blacks primarily live? Is that it?

MR. FLEMING: I was trying to locate where blacks 
primarily live but I can do it through my next witness, 
Your Honor. A. I will tell you, this question, that in my 
community where I live is a large black community but the 
white are moving in. They’re buying and building houses 
right in our neighborhood so it’s hard to say now where 
blacks live or who lives. You used to.

MR. MENEFEE: We’ve got the census tracks.

THE COURT: You don’t need to go into this. I think 
you have other testimony.

Q. I just have one more question, Mr. Green. Tell the 
Court, if you would, how far the Ensley area where you 
live is from downtown Pensacola. [2009] A. I live 
from the San Carlos Hotel nine miles and one-tenth.



572

Q. Nine and one-tenth miles from the San Carlos 
Hotel? A. I’m just south of the Nine Mile Road.

MR. FLEMING: Thank you very much, Mr. Green.

THE COURT: Cross examination of this witness?

MR. MENEFEE: Yes, sir, very brief.

CROSS EXAMINATION 

BY MR. MENEFEE:

Q. Mr. Green, what’s your educational background, 
please, sir? A. I’m glad you asked that.

Q. Yes, sir, I’m glad I did. A. It came out, I was try­
ing to check on that yesterday. That was being checked 
yesterday. I’ll give you the history of my life.

Q. No, I don’t want the history of your life.

THE COURT: Mr. Green, just tell us the extent of your 
educational background. A. I finished the tenth grade.

Q. Okay, sir. A. At the Snow Hill Institute, but I 
went all the way through the Air Force and I got every type 
of diploma you can name up to a B-52. I was a crew chief 
[2010] in Okinawa.

Q. Okay, sir. Now, let’s see, Mr. Green, if I can go 
back over it, it’s precinct 53? A. Yes, sir, precinct 53.

Q. All right, sir, and which candidates in 1976 for 
county commission did you work for? A. Mr. 
Lancaster.

Q. Mr. Lancaster? A. Uh-huh. I didn’t work for 
him. I just told people I thought he was the best candidate 
in that election.



573

Q. I see, sir. Okay, vote returns reflect that Mr. Lan­
caster got four hundred eighteen votes and Mr. Barnes got 
three hundred twenty-six in that precinct. A. That’s 
correct.

Q. Who else did you work for, please, sir? Mr. Beck, 
Mr. Armour? A. Mr. Beck.

Q. Okay, sir, Mr. Beck carried that precinct four hun­
dred seven to three hundred seventeen. Who else did you 
work for? Mr. Deese, Albritton? A. Worked for Mr. 
Albritton and lost.

Q. Mr. Albritton lost that one two hundred ninety- 
three to four hundred fifty-eight. Now, you said that Mr. 
Jenkins slacked o ff in his campaign? [2011] A. I said 
that Mr. Jenkins slacked o ff in -

Q. Let’s see how Mr. Jenkins did in your precinct. 
A. That’s right, slacked o ff coming out to the house, 
which I asked him and I didn’t see him in the last three 
weeks before election.

THE COURT: Well, do you think, did you testify, you 
didn’t testify that that hurt him in that area, did you? Or 
did you? A. Yes, sir, the first time it did, Judge.

THE COURT: You said you think it hurt him in the 
area because he wasn’t there during the three weeks? Is 
that what you said? A. That’s exactly the way I feel 
about it.

THE COURT: I see. I didn’t know. Go ahead.

Q. Mr. Jenkins got three hundred fifty-nine votes in 
that precinct. That’s what the record shows. A. Let me 
see.

Q. He lost that precinct by about thirty-five votes. All



574

those elections were sort of split down the middle, weren’t 
they? Let’s go back. How many did you say he lost that?

THE COURT: If you need to get into this, and I don’t 
know, but his testimony was that he ran worse the second 
time he ran in that area than he did the first time [2012] 
and he thinks it’s because he didn’t show up and work out 
in that area. How valuable or what relevance that par­
ticularly has I don’t know.

MR. MENEFEE: I don’t believe it’s supported.

THE COURT: If you’re going to get into it, let’s get the 
results from the first time and second time, if we have to 
spend this time. I question why we are doing it.

Q. Well, I suppose I have some doubt too, Your 
Honor.

THE COURT: I tell you what, sir. I’ll just foreclose it 
now. I’ll just rule it out under the rule if it has any rele­
vancy it’s outweighed by practical considerations, and let’s 
drop the subject and go on.

Q. Thank you, Judge. Let’s see, Mr. Green, you were 
talking something about the paving conditions in your 
neighborhood, Ensley, and we’ve had testimony from Mr. 
Sam Adams and others about unpaved streets in your 
neighborhood. There’s a fair number of unpaved streets in 
your neighborhood, is that correct, sir? A. The only 
street in Ensley that I aforesaid was Stockdale, in that 
area, that there was a big complaint about. At the present 
time they can’t get a drainage system and that’s been in the 
budget for two years and they can’t get it through because 
they can’t turn [2013] the water in anybody’s yard 
without being sued.



575

Q. Let me ask you this question then, sir. Am I not 
correct that Hinson Street is paved past your property and 
to the edge of your daughter’s property and then it stops 
and then is unpaved and then Ensley Street is paved on the 
other side of your property to the edge of your son’s pro­
perty and stops there and then is unpaved. A. That is 
one of the cases where they come down and stopped the 
county commissioners and there’s property in between the 
two residences and why it’s not gone any further, Mr. 
Jenkins knows himself, that’s Mr. Montgomery’s property 
and he says the county wasn’t going through the property 
and when they got up there he stopped them with shotguns 
and that’s why they stopped there.

THE COURT: Who stopped them with a shotgun? 
A. The property owner.

Q. Have you had much problem getting blacks in your 
precinct to reidentify? Is that a problem? A. You mean 
to register?

Q. Yes, sir. A. I’ve been working on that all day. I 
have a list of them out there from Mr. Oldmixon’s office 
showing how many were dropped from the list. I wish I’d 
brought it with me and let you see it.

[2014] THE COURT: He wants to know if you have a 
problem with it. A. No, sir, I don’t have trouble.

Q. You mean it takes a lot of work? A. Yes, sir.

Q. You work at that a lot? A. I’ll be glad when 1980 
comes. I won’t have this no more because it’s voluntary 
work and it’s tiresome. No, sir, I have no trouble getting 
them to register. I have slight trouble getting them to go to 
the polls and it’s got so if you don’t ride people to the polls 
these days they won’t go.



576

Q. Well, did you understand I’m not saying Mr. Old- 
mixon caused any problems; I’m just asking how much - 
A. No, sir, he didn’t. He’s not caused any trouble.

Q. I’m not saying that. Are you telling me that it’s easy 
to get people to go down there and reregister, reidentify? 
A. Yes, sir. I’m getting them now every day.

Q. Okay, sir. A. Every day.

Q. You work at it every day? [2015] A. Yes, sir.

Q. Okay, sir. A. Yes, sir. But I aforesaid that on 
election day we have a lot of difficulty sometimes get­
ting people to go to the polls and I believe there’s men in 
here with me on that.

Q. Are your sons in the fill and dirt business? 
A. Yes, I give them it. That was my business and I give it 
to my son after I was retired.

Q. Did you do any work for the county or school 
board? A. No, sir.

Q. Neither? A. No, sir. No.

Q. When were you first, when did you first try to get 
Hinson Street paved? A. Lord have mercy, ever since 
the late Mr. T. C. McCoy was in office.

Q. Early fifties? A. Thirty years ago.

Q. When did it finally get paved? A. Mr. Lancaster, 
Mr. Albritton and Mr. Kelson and Mr. Armour and them 
got together three years ago and paved it first down to my 
house and ran out of material and finally finished it to my 
daughter’s house and later [2016] went in that area east 
and ran into Mrs. Mitchell and Mr. McCoy and them’s 
property and said, “No, sir, you won’t go any further.



577

That’s how come Ensley Street runs into Airway Drive at 
Spencer and when it gets there Spencer takes over from 
Ensley and Ensley Street stops and we just can’t, they 
won’t let them go through.

Q. The answer is in the past two or three years? 
A. Yes, sir.

MR. MENEFEE: Thank you, sir. A. All right, sir.

THE COURT: Any redirect with this witness?

MR. FLEMING: Nothing further, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Green, thank you for being here. 
You’re excused from further attendance. A. Yes, sir. 
Sorry I was late.

* * * * *



578

TESTIMONY OF DR, MANNING J. DAUER*
[3] DR. MANNING J. DAUER,
called as a witness by the defendants, being first duly
sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION 
BY MR. CARR:

Q. May it please the Court, this is Dr. Manning J. 
Dauer, D-A-U-E-R. He is sixty-eight years old. He ws 
born in North Carolina, attended the University of 
Florida, graduating with a bachelor’s degree in history and 
political science in 1930. He got his master’s from the 
University of Florida on the same subject in 1931. He 
finished his doctorate in history and political science at the 
University of Illinois in 1933. In 1931 to ’32 he was a 
fellow, a teaching fellow, at the University of Illinois. He 
went to the University of Florida to become an instructor 
and professor and chairman of the department of political 
science, where he has been since 1933. He has been a 
Distinguished Service Professor at the University of 
Florida from 1972. He has been a visiting professor at a 
number of universities around the country, including New 
York University, the University of Alabama, the Univer­
sity of Massachusetts and Stetson University. In 1955 he 
was appointed by the Governor of Florida to the Citizens 
Committee on Constitutional Revision and its committee 
on reapportionment. He was in individual amicus curiae in 
a lawsuit styled [4] Swann vs. Adam s  involving reap­
portionment of the State of Florida in the mid nineteen- 
sixties. He has been director of a civics institute at the 
University of Florida, consultant to the Florida Constitu­
tional Revision Commission in 1966, a consultant to the 
Executive Reorganizational Plan Committee of the 
Florida House of Representatives in 1968. He belongs to
^Transcript pages 21-47 of Dr. Dauer’s testimony were accidentally 
omitted in printing but are included in Volume V to this joint appen­
dix at 1284-1304.



579

numerous professional associations including the 
American Political Science Association, of which he was a 
member of the council between 1953 and 1955 and vice- 
president of that association between 1965 and ‘66. He 
also belongs to the Southern Political Science Association, 
of which he was the secretary-treasurer and later presi­
dent; the American Historical Association; president of 
the University of Florida Chapter of Phi Beta Kappa; 
managing editor of the Journal o f  Politics. He has written 
numerous articles, monographs and books on municipal 
and state government, reapportionment, and on at-large 
and multi-member districting and the impact of such 
districting on minorities. Your Honor, we offer Dr. Dauer 
as an expert in the field of political science and introduce 
his vita.

MR. STILL: No objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right, sir. For the record you do 
have to ask him if what you said is true.

Q. Doctor, is what I’ve said true? [5] A. Yes.

Q. Dr. Dauer, have you been retained by all the 
defendants in these lawsuits, that is, the City of Pensacola, 
Escambia County, and the School Board of Escambia 
County? A. I have.

Q. When were you first approached by these defen­
dants? A. In February of this year.

Q. And are you being paid your usual hourly fee for 
your consultation in this case? A. That is correct.

Q. Is your fee in any way contingent upon the out­
come of this litigation? A. No.

Q. Dr. Dauer, would you tell us what the terms “dilu­
tion” and “white polarization” or “white block voting”



580

mean to you as a political scientist. A. Yes. Dilution of 
any group of voters depends on a total picture of what the 
political effects of elections are. Included in these total ef­
fects, I would say, is any group of the population excluded 
from registration or from the polls, either formally or in­
formally. That would be very significant evidence because 
if they did not have access to the ballot then they obviously 
could not participate.

[6] Q. You’re talking, Doctor, about formal or infor­
mal restrictions of any sort? A. That is right. In other 
words if there were legal restrictions, as was formerly the 
case in the south, or if there were any attempts to place the 
polls in inaccesible places or matters of that nature, that 
would be a primary factor. A second factor is, do can­
didates try to get the vote of a particular minority. For ex­
ample, do they, candidates, campaign on issues which are 
of interest to that group and do they openly campaign. A 
third factor is whether or not if the candidates are elected 
and have indicated a program or platform that concerns a 
particular group, do they carry out their program. By pro­
gram I mean, for example, such matters as specific items 
as in the case of a School Board, this would include not 
only the regular curriculum but also any matters of in­
terest such as compensatory education, summer school 
programs, Head Start, possible nursery support, school 
lunches, free textbooks, and various items such as voca­
tional education. The same thing would apply in the case 
of cities: Are services rendered uniformly throughout the 
community to all recipients; is street lighting in that way; 
is it placed more in one area and more in one segment of 
the population than another; are streets paved; is there 
garbage collection; are there recreational facilities; or is 
there adequate fire [7] protection. And then included in 
this area of services are matters of special interest such as



581

employment programs, federal grant programs, are those 
actively sought; CETA programs which might lead to fur­
ther training and employment, would a governmental unit 
such as a city, school board or county commission concern 
itself with such items. Then there will also be the matter of 
appointments to office and whether or not minorities are 
appointed among the various employees, whether or not 
there are affirmative action programs. Affirmative action 
includes seeing to it that there is no discrimination because 
of race or class or sex or the like. Now, affirmative action 
programs do have to be weighed in part according to the 
availability of individuals in particular categories of jobs. 
That is, if none are available in a particular specialty such 
as accounting, why, it would not be expected that affir­
mative action could result in an exact equal distribution 
among men and women or white and black. It would have 
to - but in general there should be a proper consideration. 
After you get through these services a final factor is on 
whether or not there is election of candidates from a 
minority, whether or not women or a minority are able to 
compete. But that factor by itself is only a part of the total 
picture.

Q. So what you’re saying, Doctor, then is that the 
most important things to you as a political scientist in 
[8] weighing whether dilution exists in a given context is 
the actual campaign dynamics of a situation and the actual 
performance of the government.

MR. STILL: Objection, Your Honor, that is leading 
the witness.

THE COURT: Objection is sustained.

Q. All right, sir. Doctor, can you tell us how you 
measure the degree of the white polarization that you have 
said is the key to, or the sine qua non of dilution? Can you



582

make a determination of that solely upon any statistical 
measure?

THE COURT: I don’t remember his testifying about 
polarization. Maybe I missed his testimony. Did you give 
us any thoughts or views about polarization of voting in 
connection with your testimony so far, Doctor? A. No.

THE COURT: That’s what I thought, sir.

Q. I’m sorry, Doctor. I thought I understood you at 
the outset to address that question and its relationship to 
dilution.

THE COURT: Go ahead and get into your subject with 
him.

Q. Thank you, Your Honor. Doctor, what is the rela­
tionship between the term “dilution” and the term “white 
polarization” or “white bloc voting” as it’s used? A. All 
right. This would relate in this manner, [9] that if the 
white vote in a black-white contest proceeds to block 
behind candidates who are opposed to a minority, for ex­
ample if it were possible for the candidate to ignore a 
minority and then still get the bulk of the white vote, that 
would indicate white polarization. That would indicate 
that the appeal to prejudice, the appeal to race, trans­
cended anything else. And then if the candidate did not 
campaign in the black community, was able to ignore the 
black community, was able to show that the black com­
munity did not have to have any of its needs considered, 
why, then if that candidate on such a platform received an 
overwhelming number of w'hite votes and the white vote is 
in a majority, that would indicate the effective polariza­
tion. That would mean that the white vote was susceptible 
to a racist appeal. Thereupon you can measure that 
statistically if the white vote ignores the candidates who 
might favor the black community. And or, and it the



583

white vote blocks behind candidates that favor the white 
community only in platform and in the like, then I would 
say that that constituted polarization and was serious 
evidence of dilution.

Q. So can you make a determination -

THE COURT: Mr. Carr, just a moment, please, sir. 
Doctor, give me that last one, one more time, will you? I 
was trying to make notes. You said it can be measured 
statistically if the white vote ignores the candidates [10] 
favoring minorities, I got that much out of it, and would 
you give me the rest of it, sir. A. All right. If the white 
vote is following candidates who appeal on the basis of 
race and who ignore the needs of the minority or if in the 
platform there is specific appeal against the minority or if 
there is specific appeal only to the white voter and then if a 
percent of the white vote goes for that, overwhelmingly 
for that candidate on that type of platform, that would be 
evidence of severe polarization.

THE COURT: All right, sir. Go ahead, Mr. Carr.

Q. So, Doctor, can you measure the degree of this 
white polarization solely upon any statistical measure such 
as a regression analysis? A. A regression analysis is a 
procedure to find out correlation between various aspects 
of the appeal. For instance if I am making up a regression 
analysis I would get the precincts which have a heavy black 
vote and I would get the percentage of blacks and then I 
understand that there are some hundred-fourteen or were 
a hundred-fourteen precincts in Escambia County. I 
would scale those precincts according to the percent of 
vote that, excuse me, the percent of registration first. Then 
I would take the black-white registration in precinct after 
precinct and scale them from those that were high registra­



584

tion black to zero percent [11] black or very low per­
cent black. That would, then I would enter the actual vote 
for particular candidates and if the candidate, for exam­
ple, had ignored the black demands and got a heavy vote 
in the white precincts, that would be an important factor 
in a statistical measure. Now, specifically in stepwise 
regression, which is one procedure that you can use in this, 
the result would be that that would be one factor; that is, 
the relationship between the platform on the one hand and 
the percent of vote in black-white registration precincts. 
Now, also in regression analysis you have to consider 
other factors. For example, you may need to consider the 
men and women and then you do another correlation 
where you put the men and women in a particular 
precinct. Or you take from the census tracts the question 
of income. That would be a third type of correlation that 
you could work out. Then you see which of these is the 
most indicative of the way individuals vote. Now, this is a, 
in other words in a particular race if the candidate be white 
and the candidate has opposed the blacks and that can­
didate gets a heavy vote in the white precincts, that is 
evidence of vote polarization in that particular race. And, 
now, on the other hand, if the vote only blocks in the 
black precincts and doesn’t block in the white precincts 
significantly, then it is not evidence of such polarization.

THE COURT: Why isn’t it, sir? It would mean that 
[12] in the blocs with their votes they’re voting for their 
candidate. A. That’s right.

THE COURT: It would be polarization as far as they’re 
concerned. A. It would be polarization on the part of 
the black vote but not polarization on the part of the white 
vote.

THE COURT: I see.



585

Q. Dr. Dauer, let me ask you this question. Could you 
have under a stepwise regression technique a high correla­
tion of coefficient, coefficient of correlation, and still 
have very little blocking of the white vote? Could you have 
a black candidate who wins the white precincts and still 
come up with a high coefficient of correlation? A. You 
could in this type of situation in that this is a limitation on 
the, on the use of this stepwise regression. For instance if 
the black candidate gets 90 percent in the black precincts 
but still were to get 55 percent in the white precincts, then 
in the case of a majority of white voters, why, the can­
didate is doing very well. The black voters are being 
polarized; the white voters are not. This would still show 
as factor number one on the stepwise regression but it 
would not be evidence of vote dilution because the can­
didate either who is black or who favored 
the [13] black has been elected.

Q. Okay, sir. So, Doctor, you then don’t think that 
you can determine vote polarization solely by regression 
analysis? A. No.

Q. What then do you look to to ascertain that? A. I 
would look at who gets - I think it depends on the total 
political picture, and by the total political picture I come 
back to what I defined as vote dilution and that is if all 
segments of the population can register and vote, if they 
are all, if the candidates campaign on issues and campaign 
among the minority, if the candidates are elected who 
favor programs for the minority, and if the candidates 
then carry that out, then the statistical analysis is far over­
come by the total political result in the community and in 
that particular area as with a school board or county com­
mission or city commission.

Q. Thank you, Doctor. Doctor, as you use the term 
“polarization” can you characterize a white electorate as



586

genuinely polarized, would it elect even a black candidate 
who had previously been appointed to his office and thus 
had an incumbency advantage? Would there be a genuine 
polarization in that situation? A. The candidate ap­
pointed is what?

Q. Is black. [14] A. If the candidate appointed is 
black he has the advantage of incumbency but the advan­
tage of incumbency would be far overweighed by white 
versus black if the electorate were polarized.

Q. So an electorate that is genuinely polarized would 
not behave that way, would not elect the black in that par­
ticular case? A. That is correct.

THE COURT: That is in that particular case. Obvious­
ly if he’s elected and running from minority status, ob­
viously there was no polarized white vote against him. 
A. That’s correct.

THE COURT: That would be true only in the par­
ticular election where that resulted. You would have to 
look to other races for other factors? A. Yes, in other 
races you would have to, if white versus black, and 
nobody is an incumbent, you still have to look at the pro­
gram, at the platforms of the candidates. But the ultimate 
result is not, the ultimate definition of polarization in my 
judgment is not the election of a particular candidate 
because candidates have varying degrees of popularity and 
it is also true that when a minority comes into the political 
process its candidates may not be as well known as some 
others initially but in the long run then there still is 
potential for their election.

[15] THE COURT: I see. A. So that - but I think it 
still turns not just on the election of a candidate of a 
minority but the total result of the political process in



587

terms of the delivery of services that are of interest to the 
minority in the electorate, in the political process.

THE COURT: All right, sir.

Q. So, Doctor, may a black minority in fact have 
more real raw political power, if you will, in an at-large 
system than in a single-member system? A. The answer 
is that if it can - 1 have made studies of legislative delega­
tions which I think are applicable to this situation. I did 
one on multi-member districts in Dade County and I 
weighed, this was legislative and not city or county com­
mission, but it has this applicability, that candidates cam­
paigned in the black community where there was at-large 
election. Then I took the votes cast in the Florida 
Legislature and found that the total number of votes in the 
Dade County delegation went fairly heavily when they 
were voting on measures in the Legislature such as social 
welfare legislation or the like according to the platform 
that they had campaigned on in the black community. 
Consequently, because the black community had impact 
on, in this case, some sixteen races, it had more impact in 
my judgment because it was having an impact on [16] 
sixteen votes in the Florida State Legislature. It was having 
more impact than if the black, if they were in single­
member districts, and in single-member districts then at 
best there might have been two representatives from the 
black area and the other fourteen would not have been 
represented as much by the vote that was cast in the black 
community. So I don’t regard multi-member districts as 
discriminating against the blacks. I think in fact they can 
have more impact because they vote for, in a number of 
races, and if we turn to a city or county commission the 
result could be that if you elect one black on the commis­
sion because that individual is in a, from a district where 
there are a majority of black voters, but the other four in­



588

dividuals only campaign in the white community, then 
that guarantees nothing about the delivery of services and 
nothing about the measures which the black community 
may need for its support. So that in such case you merely 
could transfer polarization from the specific district into 
the commission and there would be no gain. Whereas if 
you let the black individuals vote in the five races as for 
county or city commission, then what you wind up with is 
if the candidates, black or white, who are elected, cam­
paign in the black cummunity , and if they, and in many 
instances that conceivably could be the swing vote that 
would determine the election, why, then there is a larger 
impact of the m inority on the total results 
of [17] delivery of services than is the case if you have 
single-member districts.

Q. Doctor what other advantages are there to at-large 
systems as opposed to single-member systems? A. The 
other advantage of at-large systems is that there is less 
ward politics. There is, that is, we have had a number of 
studies of city commissions, of county commissions, and 
instead of considering the total needs of the community 
you might, you could often wind up, for example, 
distributing street lights per ward and then letting the per­
son elected from that ward or district determine where 
they be placed. And this is on a basis of favoritism and is 
not a good system

Q. Doctor, is the danger of ward politics significantly 
reduced by the simple fact that you might have a city 
manager or county manager? A. It is reduced somewhat 
but it’s no guarantee against ward politics. It’s reduced 
somewhat because city manager charters typically have a 
provision preventing the individual member of a commis­
sion requesting specific policies of the city or county 
manager and also requesting that the city or county



589

manager make appointments. However, if they log roll 
among themselves for matters they could then get around 
that by having such a vote in the commission as would tie 
the hands of the city manager, city or county [18] 
manager.

Q. All right, Doctor, in an urbanized area is single­
member districting necessarily going to reduce the costs of 
campaigning from that which would obtain in an at-large 
system? A. The answer is not because in rural areas if 
you had many different towns and different newspaper 
publications, why, then the cost of campaigning could be 
reduced if you have a very large constituency, but when 
you get into a metropolitan area the candidate has to buy 
time on the radio, the TV and in the newspaper, and usual­
ly each of those media that I’ve named cover the whole 
community so that the candidate might be reduced in 
terms of cost of shoe leather but that’s a relatively minor 
factor.

THE COURT: Doctor, you’re speaking in general
terms and not this particular area there, I assume. I mean 
this is a general principle. A. I am speaking in terms of 
general principles because I have not studied -

THE COURT: For example in a report here that was 
put in by a study committee for the county commissioners 
1 believe they said that they recommended single-member 
districts and the basis of it was they said it would 
significantly reduce the cost of campaigning. You don’t 
really agree or disagree with that statement because you 
don’t have [19] that much information about it, I 
assume. Is that correct? A. As applied to Escambia 
County I do not have the information.

THE COURT: Yes, sir. All right.

Q. But you don’t think it’s necessarily true? A. As a



590

general principle I don’t think it would apply to an area the 
size of Escambia County.

Q. Doctor, let me ask you again as a general principle, 
is single-member districting necessarily going to increase, 
work an increase in voter turnout, as opposed to that 
which would obtain in an at-large system? A. The 
answer is no. Single-member districts are, depend in that 
case, voter turnout depends on the quality of the can­
didates in each of the respective districts and the interest 
stirred up within that district. The voter is concentrating 
on the two or more candidates in his or her particular 
district and that, and really it can cut down on the total 
turnout because if the candidates are running at large then 
all the voters of the particular area, whether the city or the 
county, will listen to several candidates and there’s more 
chance that, in an at-large system, that more of them will 
be interested and get to the polls.

Q. Okay. Now, Dr. Dauer, defendants have not asked 
you, have they, to do all the study necessary to form an 
opinion as to whether black voting strength in Pensacola 
[20] or Escambia County has been diluted? A. No. I 
have looked at some election returns but I have not studied 
the total delivery of services in this county and I have been 
speaking as to general principles.

Q. Right. So defendants asked you to tell the court 
what you as a political scientist think are the most impor­
tant elements to consider in assessing whether or not that 
dilution exists? A. Yes.

Q. But if you were confronted with an opinion, Doc­
tor, that dilution of black voting strength is established 
solely by the fact that black candidates have been defeated 
in at-large elections, would you agree or disagree?

THE COURT: I don’t remember any such testimony in 
this case, Counselor.



591

MR. CARR: All right, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Do you? I don’t recall any such
testimony.

MR. CARR: Your Honor, we had a bit of argument 
about that. I recall the day.

THE COURT: If you want to ask him, you can say it. I 
do not recall the testimony. The testimony I recall, it’s ob­
viously consistent with the defeat that black candidates, I 
don’t know, I assume Dr. Dauer would agree it’s at least a 
factor, some evidence to be considered, when you get in 
the question of polarization, but it certainly is [21] not 
determinative. Would you agree with that, Doctor?
A. I agree with Your Honor’s statement of it, exactly.

Q. Thank you, Your Honor. Dr. Dauer, that’s all the 
questions I have. Lawyers for the plaintiffs may like to 
cross examine.

*  *  *  *  *

[47] THE COURT: What does skewing mean, Doctor? 
A. Skewing means that if the black vote is polarized and 
the white is not you can’t generalize about the total elec­
torate; you can only generalize about part of it. And skew­
ing means that you’re coming to a false conclusion.

THE COURT: Because you don’t know about the
white? A. Because you don’t know about the white.

THE COURT: And you said what about it in these 
things? Did you say you found no skewing? A. I found 
that all of them were skewed because of the heavy vote in 
the black precincts and that that’s a fault in regression 
analysis.

Q. Doctor, by heavy vote do you mean heavy in turn­
out? A. No, I mean the percent that is voting in that



592

[48] ward for the particular candidate; or precinct, ex­
cuse me, not ward.

Q. All right, sir. Now, doesn’t the “r” square value by 
being very high tell us how well the line fits all of the dots 
on the scattergram? A. It tells you how the line fits the 
scatter diagram but it doesn’t justify a conclusion of 
polarization. You can’t move from the statistical evidence 
where only part of it is polarized to saying the total elec­
torate is polarized.

Q. But the regression analysis looks at the entire elec­
torate, doesn’t it, Doctor? A. It looks -

Q. Gives you an “r” square for the entire electorate? 
A. Yes, you can have an “r” square but the “r” square 
doesn’t prove anything except that this is factor number 
one in the entire operation. But I’m still saying that if, that 
in certain of those races where the white candidate got 51 
percent or better in most of the white precincts, it still 
turned out that factor number one was black-white. But 
that does not conclude polarization. The black candidate 
in the city races was getting, was being elected.

Q. Now, Doctor, let me call your attention in
[49] Changing Politics o f  the South to your table nine­
teen, which is labeled “Wallace Vote in 1968, Florida 
Counties in Multiple Correlation Stepwise Regression 
Analysis.” A. Yes.

Q. Now, there the first step that you came out with 
was percent of income over fifteen thousand dollars and 
you had an “r” square of .7635. A. Yes.

Q. Now, what does that particular piece of informa­
tion tell us about the appeal of George Wallace to the elec­
torate? A. It tells you that there is a correlation with in­



593

come. But it doesn’t say that, it doesn’t go on to say that 
that is polarized.

Q. It indicates that there is a correlation, is that cor­
rect, sir? A. That is correct. But the conclusions you 
draw from correlations are not automatic. You have to use 
some judgment.

Q. All right, Doctor.
THE COURT: I think what you’re telling me, even in 

these situations where you have here you thought it was in­
sufficient there were some correlations shown by the elec­
tion results and things, which means to my layman’s mind, 
and you straighten me out, that there were indeed some 
whites voting [50] for white candidates as against black 
candidates because of racial considerations but that 
polarization means sufficient numbers of them voting for 
that reason to effectively prevent the black from having a 
chance of getting elected. A. To prevent the black from 
having any chance.

Q. Now, Doctor, I want to make sure we’re talking 
about the same term here. You’re not talking about dilu­
tion of the vote; you’re talking about polarization of the 
vote, which means that they’re polar opposites, isn’t that 
correct? A. That would be correct.

Q. And you’re saying that a regression analysis which 
comes out with an “r” square of .95 or above does not tell 
us that the vote is polarized along racial lines,that blacks 
are voting one way and whites are voting another way?

MR. CARR: Your Honor, I’m going to have to object 
to that. He’s gone into this time and time again and the 
witness has testified time and time again the voting returns 
themselves and not statistical analysis gives you the total 
picture.



594

THE COURT: I’m going to let him ask the one more 
question. You are repeating yourself in cross. Go ahead. 
He used this time an “r” two factor of what? A. Point 
nine. I would have to know then as to, that would show, 
that might show that in the case of this [51] particular 
situation, if 90 percent are up in the top, well, let me start 
over. That would show that if in the black precincts the 
candidate was getting 95 percent and in the white precincts 
he was getting 55 and it all scaled neatly down in relation 
to the number of whites you still could get that out of a 
hundred-fourteen precincts ninety-five of them, 95 percent 
of them scaled most according to black-white. But that 
would not show that the white vote is polarized because in 
the example I’ve cited down in the white precincts the in­
dividual is still getting over 50 percent of the votes and so 
your white voters are giving a majority to the black can­
didate and you’re still getting, but you’re still having factor 
number one emerge as black-white. But it doesn’t show 
polarization down at the other end.

Q. In that case -

THE COURT: Mr. Still, go ahead. We have about 
gone over this thing pretty thoroughly.

Q. Well, in that case the difference, the change in the 
vote would be what we would be measuring, wouldn’t it, 
from the all-white precincts to the all-black precincts, and 
we would be explaining by the “r” square of .9 or .95 the 
difference in the vote, is that correct, Doctor? A. The 
difference in the vote from what?

Q. The difference in the vote between the all-black 
precincts and all-white precincts. A. No, when you’re 
[52] using units and you’re using the proportion of 
black-white registrants to votes and you’re saying that the 
most powerful explanation here is that, black-white.



595

Q. All right, Doctor, did you in this analysis of 
George Wallace’s vote in 1968, did you check to see 
whether there was any skewing there? A. Yes.

Q. You checked? Was there any skewing? A. The 
answer is no because it also showed a relationship with the 
lower income groups.

Q. All right, Doctor. Now, you mentioned that you 
utilized what you called the difference of means test and I 
believe in your deposition you talked about Blalock’s 
book, Social Statistics. A. Yes.

Q. Is this the same difference of means test that is 
found in Blalock’s book? A. Yes.

Q. This difference of means test, is this analysis you’ve 
been talking about here of the 40 percent as a 
cutoff? A. Yes. Now, the difference of means in 
Blalock’s doesn’t do the 40 percent. I mean you’re using 
the Blalock formula and then you’re using the Jewel and 
Patterson definition [53] of what is polarized and what 
is not.

Q. Doctor, with regard to whether or not single­
member districts reduce the cost of campaigning in urban 
areas I believe you testified that it as a general rule does 
not because these candidates have all got to use the same 
TV stations and same newspapers that they used in at- 
large elections. Have you made any analysis to see whether 
or not there is any difference in the amount that is spent in 
Escambia County between people running for the County 
Commission and people running for the School Board, 
both of which are elected at large? A. No, I’ve made no 
analysis of Escambia County on those points. I was speak­
ing as a general principle.

Q. Doctor you, I believe, in your deposition cited 
New, Verba and Pertrocik’s book, The Changing



596

American Voter, as being one which is well-recognized in 
the field, is that correct? A. That is correct.

Q. Would you agree with them when they speak of the 
polarizing issue of race as being an important factor in 
analyzing elections? A. As a possible factor, yes, that 
certainly you always have to take the ethnic vote into ac­
count and then see what the result is.

Q. And Bartley and Graham in Southern Politics and 
the Second Reconstruction [54] speak of the perverse 
persistence of race in politics in the South. Would you 
agree with them?

THE COURT: Speaks of the what, sir?

Q. Perverse persistence of race as a factor in politics. 
A. Fortunately I think it is decreasing and it depends on 
the area and the particular race as to that, but it always is 
one in Southern politics that we have to analyze.

THE COURT: Mr. Still, I don’t know how much
longer you think it will take but it’s been going on a 
considerable period.

MR. STILL: Yes, sir. I’ve got about one or two more 
questions.

THE COURT: While you’re looking them up or think­
ing about what you want to ask I’ll ask him a question. Dr. 
Dauer, I have had two, we have had two experts testifying 
in this field respecting regression analysis and dilution and 
that kind of thing. They testified here last week. Have you 
had any opportunity to go over their testimony as they 
gave it here? A. Not in court. I did look at their regres­
sion figures and I did, I was supplied with their deposi­
tions, which, I add, were read to me, the point being that 
I’m developing cataracts and so it’s inaccurate if I say I 
read [55] them, but I did have them. I had their deposi­
tions. But I have not heard their testimony.



597

THE COURT: Of course I haven’t had the depositions. 
I heard the testimony. Let me ask you this point, this ques­
tion, though. To what extent, if any, do you disagree with 
their findings or conclusions? A. All right. As to their 
use of regression analysis I think we’ve been discussing it.

THE COURT: I understand that one. A. That point. 
Another point, and I think that their definition of dilution 
does not include what I think is correct in political science, 
which is the total scope of the political process including 
registration and voting, whether the candidates campaign, 
whether they campaign on significant issues, and finally 
delivery of services. And in the last place I would put the 
issue of just black-white opposed elections because I think 
that from the standpoint of that group in the electorate the 
test of the pudding is not the election in a particular race. 
So I found their testimony leaning much too heavily just 
on the issue of black-white opposed races and not on the 
total political process.

THE COURT: All right, sir.

Q. Doctor, you’ve written an article or a monograph 
in 1953 in which you supported the use of at-large elec­
tions [56] for local communities in Florida, didn’t you? 
A. Yes.

Q. So you’ve been on record for at least twenty-five 
years now supporting at-large elections, is that correct? 
A. At-large providing the districts are of reasonable size 
or there be a reasonable number of candidates for the 
voter to receive attention.

MR. STILL: Thank you very much, Doctor.

THE COURT: Redirect?

MR. CARR: Your Honor, I don’t believe we have any 
questions.



598

COLLOQUY BETWEEN THE COURT AND COUNSEL

[2058] MR. FLEMING: I’m uncertain to the degree to 
which we’ll be able to stipulate but I will offer —

THE COURT: Well, all right.

MR. FLEMING: I will offer this much and see if Mr. 
Menefee is in agreement.

THE COURT: I suppose, does that have really much 
relevance here? We’re talking about dilution of vote 
through, in effect, official action or inaction, nothing else. 
We can’t cure all the racial ills under the guise of constitu­
tional requirement.

MR. MENEFEE: Judge, it has this relevance. The 
political system operates on a given social structure. Con­
tacts for politicians, as ample testimony has developed 
here, are formed in any number of clubs, in any number of 
social institutions.

THE COURT: Well, it may have some relevance, carry­
ing it pretty far. Anyhow, let’s see what you have.

MR. FLEMING: I would suggest if the stipulation is re­
quired, I would suggest this, Your Honor. There’s a 
significant racial segregation in private social, civic and 
religious organizations. However, this is due principally to 
voluntary decisions of the public and there is little to sug­
gest that this segregation is due to the rules of the 
organizations or its members.

MR. MENEFEE: Your Honor, we would certainly, the 
[2059] first sentence is fine. I think it’s a matter of 
custom.

THE COURT: Beg pardon?
MR. MENEFEE: We would suggest it’s a matter of 

custom. We’re not arguing any prohibitory rules.



599

THE COURT: Well, the rest of it, it is indeed a matter 
of custom and I would think people living in this area, 
undeniably there have been some times when we’ve had 
clubs or civic organizations or particularly social clubs 
who have not let black members join. You can’t get away 
from that, Mr. Fleming.

MR. FLEMING: I don’t know that, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Well, anybody over here would back 
that one up, I think. We’ve had social clubs that have kept 
out minority groups and we have it today. Anybody want 
to, anybody dispute that statement? I’ll give you the Pen­
sacola Country Club as an example.

MR. RAY: Never been there, Judge.
THE COURT: You’re not a member of it? You’re not a 

member of that club?
MR. RAY: No, sir.
THE COURT: Isn’t that true? I happen to be a member 

of it. I’ve never seen a black whose a member of it. I have 
been told that club, for example, in times past and today 
will not let blacks be members of it and [2060] will not 
let Jews be members of it.

MR. LOTT: Your Honor, if that be the case, the fact of 
that being the case is obviously not in violation of any 
federal law.

THE COURT: I would agree with it. He’s talking about 
what it is. Let’s don’t say that’s true if you all don’t know. 
I’m just having to speak from what I’ve been told and I’m 
just not out there very much. I’m not active in that club. I 
just happen to be a member of it, so I don’t know whether 
it’s true or not.

MR. FLEMING: Your Honor, I believe defendants



600

have nothing further to present. The defendants rest, Your 
Honor.

THE COURT: All right, on this stipulation we’d better 
get a lot of custom in it too. There’s a lot that goes back. I 
think it’s equally true there would be black organizations 
in this town in which we’ve got that kind of segregation 
too. We’ve got a lot of black churches with few, if any, 
white members. We’ve got black organizations which by 
custom otherwise don’t have whites.

MR. MENEFEE: The stipulation was to cover both 
sides.

THE COURT: Let’s leave it generally at that.
MR. FLEMING: I think the remarks on the record 

[2061] will suffice for the record.
THE COURT: Here I am putting stuff on the record 

and making stipulations for you. Anybody got objections 
to what I finally said there? We’ll get away from that par­
ticular country club deal. Any argument about that being 
true in this area?

MR. RAY: Your Honor, I don’t know if it’s true.
THE COURT: Don’t know what? Forget about the 

country club. I mean what I said about the black organiza­
tions. We have them and black churches and few, if any, 
whites in them, and white organizations and white chur­
ches and few, if any, blacks in them. Generally speaking, 
that’s true in this community? Is that acceptable to all of 
you as a stipulation?

MR. MENEFEE: It is to us.

MR. LOTT: But not as a rule.
MR. CATON: With the qualifications Mr. Fleming had 

about custom.



601

THE COURT: It’s been there by custom and there are 
some exceptions to it but it is generally in this area and 
community today.

MR. FLEMING: I think that’s agreeable, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right, what else do you want to get 
into now?

[2062] MR.FLEMING: Nothing, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Everybody announcing, you’re announ­
cing rest, all three of you?

MR. BLACKSHER: Mr. Shimek’s testimony will take 
five minutes, Judge.

THE COURT: Let’s get your rebuttal testimony right 
now.

MR. BLACKSHER: We’ll call Mr. Paul Shimek. I’ll get 
him, Judge.

MR. RAY: Your Honor, before Mr. Shimek testifies I 
would like to state that my understanding of the problem 
with this exhibit was that it wasn’t the complete exhibit 
and therefore the defendants or the plaintiffs were af­
forded an opportunity to bring the complete exhibit to 
court to make it a full exhibit. I don’t know what 
testimony Mr. Shimek could offer in that regard.

THE COURT: I think he’s caught short here and he’s 
going to have Mr. Shimek testify from personal recollec­
tion and maybe come into it. I think he’s had that pro­
blem, Mr. Ray. I don’t know. We’ll let him come forward 
and see. Mr. Ray. I am not inclined to be too technical. If 
he’s got other evidence in that thing that goes beyond what 
you did it seems to me we ought to get it here.

* * * * * * * *