Bailey v. Patterson Mimeographed Record Vol. III

    UNITED STATES
COURT of APPEALS

F I F T H  C I R C U I T

No.

SAMUEL BAILEY, ET AL,

APPELLANTS

VERSUS

JOE T. PATTERSON, ET AL,
APPELLEES

Volume III

Appeal from the United States District Court 
for the Southern District of Mississippi, 

Jackson Division

M IMEOGRAPHED RECORD



I N D E X

Samuel Bailey, Et A1 
Versus
Joe T. Patterson, Et A1
Volume III Page No
Transcript of Testimony Continues

Testimony of DR. JANE E. McALLISTER
" " HON. JOE T. PATTERSON
11 " J. L. RAY
" " JOHNNY FRAZIER, Recalled
" " VERA PIGEE, Recalled

Plaintiffs' Exhibits 32,33,34,& 35 Affidavits 
Testimony of MRS. ELL M. COWLING 
" " R. W. GODWIN
" " W. MARVIN STANLEY
" " LESTER GRANTHAM
" " P. E. LAMMEY
" " BOBBY RAY BURKS

" GERALD B. SHELTON
" " M. V. STALLINGS

393
?io
442
464
468
482
492
507
515
520



395
(R-1168)

VOLUME III

TRANSCRIPT OF TESTIMONY CONTINUED

DR, JANE E. MCALLISTER, called as a witness and having been 
duly sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MOTLEY:
Q. Please state your full name.
A, Jane Ellen McAllister.
Q, Is it Dr. McAllister?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you a medical doctor?
A. No. Doctor of philosophy.
Q. From what institution do you have your degree?
A. Columbia University.
Q. Any other degrees?
A. M. A,, University of Michigan^ and B.A., Taladega College, 

Taladega, Alabama.
Q. Where do you live?
A. Vicksburg, Mississippi.
Q. How long have you lived in Vicksburg?
A. I was born there and I have lived there all my life with 

just intervals of teaching in other places, but Vicks­
burg is my home.

Q,. What is your present position, Dr. McAllister?
(R-H69)
A. I am Professor of Education at Jackson State College in



594
(R-1169)

Jackson, Mississippi.
Q. How long have you been so employed?
A. Since approximately 1951 off and on. 1951. I actually 

worked there and helped organize the state college in 
1941, I think.

Q. Did you live here in the City of Jackson?
A. No, I live in Vicksburg. I commute each day and have 

since 1951 every day, summer and winter.
Q. Here you subpoenaed by the plaintiffs to appear here to­

day?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Did you say you live in Vicksburg?
A. I live in Vicksburg,
Q. How do you get to your place of employment at Jackson 

State College every day?
A. I commute on the Trailways bus each day.
Q. Have you ever been required to change your seat on any 

occasion —

BY MR. CANNADA: We object to leading.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes, don*t lead the witness,

Or. Did you ride the Trailways bus at any time during the 
year i960?

A. Yes, practically every day during i960 except during 
vacation.

Q. Did anything occur, anything unusual, during that year, 
that you recall?



395
(R-1170)
A. Well, one experience, I suppose I have tried to forget 

it because it was very humiliating, but the details 
aren't quite clear in my mind. In 1959----

BY MR. SHANDS: If she doesn’t remember what she Is 
about to testify about, we object to her testifying 
about it. She said it is not clear.
BY THE WITNESS: I said details. I can give you —
BY MRS. MOTLEY: This is during the year i960.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Your objection is overruled.

Q. This is during the year i960?
A. i960, yes, before Thanksgiving,
Q. Would that be November, i960?
A. It was.
Q. What happened on that occasion?

BY WITNESS: I'm under oath. Elay I say what happened? 
BY JUDGE RIVES: According to your best recollection.
BY THE WITNESS: Thank you. According to my best 
recollection.

A. I was —  The words were used, I'll say this: The words 
were used, "You are under arrest." I was asked to move 
my seat. I was next to the back seat —  Did you want 
me to discuss -—  I'm not familiar with court procedure. 
May I just say it.

Q. Please tell us step by step. Start at the beginning, how



396
(R-1171)

you got on the bus, and so forth, and tell us step by 
step, slowly, exactly what happened.

A. To the best of ray recollection. I got on the bus and 
sat —  I have a usual place where I work —  and I was 
about the second seat from the back, the very back seat 
—  third seat from the back seat. And there were two 
other Negroes. I made the third Negro. We were sitting 
together, but not in the same seat, in double seats.
The bus driver was not on the bus. He had gotten off.

Q. Why did he get off the bus?
A. I understand that he got —

BY MR. CLARK: Object to what she understands.
BY JUDGE RIVES: If you know the reason, you can testi­
fy. If you don't know —
BY THE WITNESS: I know the reason told me by the bus 
company. Would that do?
BY MR. CLARK: No.
BY MR. CANNADA: We object to it unless she knows of 
her own knowledge.

Q. You got on the bus, you say?
A. Yes.
Q. And you took a seat, the third seat from the back?
A. Yes.
Q. And then the driver got off the bus?
A. He was off the bus at the time the police officer got on.



397
(R-1172)
Q, Let's not rush to the police officer. I'm trying to 

get what happened after you got on the bus. You took 
a seat, the third seat from the rear,

A, That's right.
Q. And you said something about you usually work there. Do 

you want to explain what you mean?
A. I correct papers. If there are any teachers, they

know —  I correct papers on the bus every day because 
I need to use that tine.

BY THE COURT: Was this in Jackson?
BY THE WITNESS: This was in Jackson, in the bus sta­
tion.
BY MR. SHANDS: That's what we want to know.
BY THE WITNESS: In the Trailways station on the bus in 
Jackson.

Q,. Had you purchased a ticket?
A. I purchased a book which contains tickets for each day, 

and I had given in my ticket for that particular day.
Q. Was this before or after the driver got off the bus?
A. It was before he got on. He loaded his bus, and he loads 

by taking tickets as we get on.
Q. Did he direct you to any seat?
A. Oh, no. We usually take our seats.
Q. What happened after that, after you sat down?
A. After I sat down, I began correcting my papers, and then 

I heard someone, first, —  I didn't see them —  I heard



398
(R-1172)

someone say, "Get on that back seat." So the other two 
(R-1172a )

Negroes got on the back seat, and I merely Inquired,
"Are you a military policeman?" because I assumed he 
couldn't be a civilian, civil policeman. You know what 
I mean. And I said, "Are you a military policeman?"
And then he said, "Officer of the City of Jackson, and 
you are under arrest."

Q. What was that officer's name?
A. He told me his name was Reagan.
Q. What then happened?
A. Then I said, "Pick up my things?" They were lying on 

the side. And he drew his stick. He didn't strike me.
He drew his stick, and I said again, "Pick up my things," 
and then —

Q. —  Excuse me. You asked the officer to pick up your 
things?

A. He did. He picked them up. He was very kind about it.
He picked the pocketbook up, held it over his arm, but 
held the stick in this hand, the pocketbook in his hand. 

Q. Then what happened?
A. I didn't resist after he told me he was an officer, and 

he sort of helped me out toward the front of the bus, 
still holding his stick.

Q-. Did he put his hands on you?
A. Yes, he was holding my arm. He had lifted me up, you 

know, helped me up. Not that I resisted, but helped



399
(R~1172a )

me up and started me off the bus holding my arm and 
still holding his stick.

Q. What happened then?
A, Then when he got to the front of the bus, he said, quite
(R-1173)loudly, because I think he was excited, Call the 

patrol wagon."

BY MR. CLARK: We object to what she thinks. If he 
exhibited any —
BY THE WITNESS: He exhibited excitement in the tone of 
his voice, and so on.

A. And he said,"Call the patrol wagon."
Q. Whom did he say that to?
A. He yelled it to anyone out there. I imagine he thought 

Mr. Vickers or Mr. Dobbins or somebody would hear him 
and be kind enough to call the patrol wagon.

BY MR. O'MARA: We move to exclude what she imagines.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Strike what she imagines.
BY THE WITNESS: I'll admit that.

Q, What happened then?
A. We stood and talked in a quiet, civilized fashion. I 

suggested he call Mayor Thompson. Then I suggested he 
call Police Chief Rayfield, and then I thought he 
better call Msgr. Brunini —  because I thought he was 
Catholic. —  I know you don't want me to say "think. 11



400
(R-1175)
Q. Tell what happened.
A. Then I said, "Maybe you better call our family lawyer

in Vicksburg, Alex Brunini." And t h e n-- You want me
to tell this?

(R-1174)
Q. Yes. Please go on.
A. Then Mr. Burke, the driver, came up where I was, and I 

said, "I’m under your protection, Mr. Burke." This is 
as far as I remember. You know it happened a -—

Q, Did you know this driver?
A. I did, quite well. We have known each other as driver 

and passenger for some years. Then Mr. Burke said, 
"Well, I always cooperate with the police." And he 
took his book out to show me that his book said "Coope­
rate with the police." I thought that was kind of him. 
Then I said, "But I’m still under your protection."

Q. Then what happened?
A. Then the policeman said, "Get on the bus and go on to 

Vicksburg."
Q. Did you do anything else yourself?
A. No, I did ask him —  His stick was lying on my pocket- 

book, so I said, "Here’s your stick" —  or what do you 
call it. I think I said, ’cause I wasn’t sure of the 
nightstick.

Q. And then what happened?
A. Then I got on the bus, and the bus was being held up all 

that time, about thirty minutes late, and Mr. Burke



401
(R-1174)

came on and passed out the usual cards to he filled in. 
We do It for accidents. And I filled mine in, and 
where it said, "Were you injured?" I said "In potential
physical danger," I thought ---- And I said "humuliated
and embarrassed." —

BY MR, CLARK: Could we hear the witness1 answer? She 
dropped her voice at the end of the sentence and I 
couldn’t hear her.
BY THE WITNESS: I ’m always afraid I ’m going to say 
"think" and it won’t be accepted, but I ’ll say it over 
again.
BY JUDGE RIVES: She is speaking very distinctly.
BY THE WITNESS: You see, I ’m not accustomed to leaving 
out "think" and that is why.

Q. After you filled out this report, what happened?
A. Well, the driver and the policeman came back on the bus 

where I was sitting in my seat, my same seat, and he 
said, the policeman said, "I’ve always cooperated with 
Jackson State College," and I said, "Thank you," and 
he said "With President Jacob Rettix," and I said,
"I’m not President Jacob Rettix; I ’m Jane Ellen McAllis­
ter." But I appreciated the cooperation.

Q. Did they make any of these calls you referred to?
A. I don’t think they did. Again, I don't know. But Mr. 

Dobbins, Mr. Vickers, the other officials of the bus 
station were standing with me. I didn’t see them leave.



402
(R-1175)
Q. Did you report this incident to anyone after that?
A. Immediately. As soon as I got into my home, I called 

collect the vice-president of Trailways Bus Company. 
Apparently he was expecting me. I think it was the
vice-president ---- Well, I called for the vice-
president 1* 11 say that.

(R-1176)
Q, Where did you call?
A. I called Alexandria, -
Q,. Where?
A. In Louisiana. I said, '‘Will you take this call collect?" 

and apparently he knew I was calling because he took it 
collect. He said, "Put her on." I could hear him. It 
was the legal division, Me. Peach, and he said he would 
look into the entire matter. I then called lie. Ray- 
field, but I got Mr. Pierce, of the Jackson Police 
Department, and he said he would look into it.

Q. Did you contact anyone else?
A. And —  I think —  All I can remember. —  That's all I 

can remember at this time.
Q. ’lien did this occur, yousay?
A. I couldn’t find any material giving me the exact date, 

but it was before the Thanksgiving holidays. I had 
thought it was all over, and I had destroyed the mate­
rial and had forgotten it, as I do most humuliating 
experiences. I try to forget them as well as I can do.

BY MR, SHANDS: You don’t know when it was?



405
(R-1176)

BY THE WITNESS: Not precisely* I can look it up in the 
Justice Department or Mr. Pierce's office. I fm sure 
he has a file. And Mr. Peach has it too.

Q. Was this before the Tnanksgiving holidays last year?
A. Before the Tnanksgiving holidays last year. I'm sure

it's in Me. Peach's records, and Mr. Pierce’s records
(R-1177)of the City of Jackson, because they keep record. I 

don't.

BY MRS. MOTLEY: I think that is all the questions for 
this witness.

CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WATKINS:
Q. Dr, McAllister, as a matter of fact^ it occurred on 

November 28, i960.
A. Thank you for helping me out.
Q. Now, I believe you have told the Court you had commuted 

from Vicksburg to Jackson practically every day for 
ten years?

A. Yes, you know, except for vacations.
Q. Sundays?
A. Yes, Sundays, Saturdays and summer vacations. I did 

summer school, but I don't do it intervals between 
summer schools.

Q, Out of all those trips this is the only one that this 
kind of thing happened to you?



404

(R-1177)
A. Well, I don’t want to mention the other one. There was 

one other, but it was at the very beginning, and I 
settled it by writing to the president of the Trailways, 
and they came out and apologized, and I wouldn’t like 
to bring it up again.

Q. I was hoping this was the only one, Doctor. If you want
(R-1178)to tell about the other one, I certainly want you to.
A. Well, I wouldn’t —  I mean, he apologized,
Q. Certainly, on the vast majority of your trips from Vicks­

burg to Jackson and the return, you have been treated 
courteously and have sat where you wanted to sit on the 
bus?

A. Well, I’ll say I have sat where I wanted to sit. As it 
happened, I just didn’t sit on the front seat. I don’t 
know why I didn't after the rule was fastened on, but 
I didn’t, and the other places nobody has ever molested 
me.

Q. %  point, you are telling this Court about one occur­
rence out of the numerous trips you made where nothing 
has occurred unpleasant to you, either in the City of 
Jackson or elsewhere, have they?

A. No, I think that i s -- You don't want me to say "think."
Q,. I want you to say anything you want to say.
A. I think that is because —  I think I have been partly 

responsible for that.

BY MR. CLARK: We object to her surmising why things



405
(R-1178)

happened, and we think that the only competent testi­
mony from this witness Is what has or has not happened 
that she can tell this Court of her own knowledge.
BY JUDGE RIVES: She asked counsel if she could tell 
what she thinks, and he said yes.
BY MR. S H A M :  We certainly did not.

(R-1179)BY MR. WATKINS: I certainly did not intend for her to 
go beyond her own personal knowledge.
EY JUDGE RIVES: (to witness:) Confine yourself to the 
facts unless counsel asks you what you think.

A. I'm confining myself to the facts. I'll have to say
nothing has happened unpleasantly except those two inci­
dents, to me, personally.

Q. You keep —
A. —  You don't want me to say anything else about what I 

have seen happen though, do you?

BY JUDGE RIVES: Let's have order. Let's not have all 
this laughter.

Q. I'm asking you about the only occurrence you testified 
about on direct examination.

A. That's right. Well, I told you the truth about that.
Q. Now, I want to ask you whether on your next trip to

Jackson or any of your following trips to Jackson after 
November 28, i960, you had no similar experience, did 
you?



406

(R-1179)
A. Wo, I have had no similar experience.
Q. And did you see Officer Reagan at the bus depot at any 

time after that occurrence?
A. I don't know whether this was Officer Reagan or not.

I saw one young officer, and I asked the bus driver, 
because I had been assured that this would never happen 
again, that he would seat the buses. I was assured by

(R-1180)everybody concerned that no longer would police officers 
in the Jackson bus station seat the buses. That was my 
assurance.

Q. Now, Doctor, let's get back to the question.
A. I have to say that before I can answer your question. I 

saw a young officer who looked like Officer Reagan. I 
wasn't positive. So I said to the bus driver, "Is that 
Officer seating this bus again?" And the driver said, 
"I'll go and ask him." Aid he went and asked him was 
he seating the buses, and he came back and said he was 
not seating the buses, and I said, "Thank you. It 
really has been settled."

Q. What I am interested in knowing is whether any time after 
November 28, i960, you saw in and around the bus station 
the officer that took part in the occurrence of November 
28, I960.

A, I wouldn't know him exactly. I thought it looked like 
him, but it may not have been he. I would not like to 
judge.



407
(R-1180)
Q. You would not say positively?
A. No, I would not say positively it was Officer Reagan.

It was a young officer dressed as Mr. Reagan was dressed. 
Q. You understand all the officers dress in similar uniforms? 
A. No, these were, you know, patrol —  What do you call them? 

Motorcycle cops, this one was. Re was motorcycle. He 
was dressed a little differently.

Q. I want to ask you one more time, have you seen or been 
(R-1181)

given any trouble by the officer you described on Novem­
ber 28, i960?

A. No, no trouble.

BY MR. WATKINS: That is all.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Any further redirect?

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MOTLEY:
Q. I'd like to ask the witness whether you know of your 

own knowledge what the destination of this bus was?
A. Hie bus? It is what we call an express bus. It is sup­

posed to go to Dallas. It is not supposed to stop except 
at Vicksburg and then the big cities and go to Dallas.
It is express.

Q. Have you noticed a police officer standing at this Trail- 
ways bus terminal every day in the last ten years that 
you have been commuting?

A. No, I haven’t. I shall be perfectly frank with you.



(R-ll&L)
Certain things are routine to me. You know, when you do 
a thing so often it becomes routine. I had not noticed 
officers at the bus until Mr. Reagan got on, really had 
not noticed. Now, they may have been there. And then, 
of course, I’ve been consciously watching for them since. 

Q. Do you see them every day now?
A. I don’t see them every day. I really don't see much of

them. They may be in the white waiting room. I haven’t
seen them on there.

(R-1182)
Q. I see.

BY MRS. MOTLEY: That is all.

CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. O'MARA:
Q. During the several years you have been riding the bus

from Vicksburg to Jackson, have you sat on the bus where 
you desired to sit?

A. May I preface that remark with something?
Q. If you will just answer the question yes or no. You can 

answer it with one word.

BY JUDGE RIVES: She lias already said that.
BY MR. O’MARA: If she said, yes, I did not so under­
stand.
BY JUDGE RIVES: She said she did sit where she particu­
larly wanted to sit.



409
(R-1182)
A. May I preface the remark? I just never thought of sitting 

in front. I'll try sitting in front when I go back this 
afternoon if you'd like me to do so. I just, you know,
I have a regular place for sitting, and the drivers 
have never asked me to move. But I haven't been in the 
front seat. I'll be glad to try it out if you'd like me 
to do so.

(R-1183)
Q, I assure you, as far as I'm concerned, you can sit in 

any seat you want to.
A. Thank you.
Q. On the occasion when you have ridden the bus, has the bus 

driver treated you in a courteous manner?
A. I must say this for the bus drivers: They have been very 

courteous to me over ten years.
Q. One other question. I do not know whether I misunderstood 

you. I want to clear it up in my own mind. You were 
telling about the officer getting on the bus when it 
was parked at the station in November of i960. Did you 
say that Mr. Phil Dobbins was present?

A. I'm not sure about Mr. Dobbins. At that time I didn't 
know Mr. Dobbins so well, you know, that very day. I 
have learned him since he came up to the college to 
apologize —  and Mr. Vickers —  but I think they were on 
the platform that day. There were two or three white 
people. I know Mr. Vickers and Mr. Dobbins quite well 
now. They did come apologize for the treatment.



410
(R-1183)
Q. Was Mr. Dobbins present?
A. To tell you the truth, I can't remember, inthe excite­

ment. I can remember three or four white faces, but 
other than that, I can’t remember. They didn’t say any­
thing though, not where I could hear them.

BY JUDGE HIVES: (to witness) You may be excused. 
(Witness excused)

(Whereupon the Court was recessed for 15 minutes.) 
(R-1184)
HON. JOE T. PATTERSON, a defendant, called as a witness and 
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MOTLEY:
Q. Mr. Patterson, would you state your full name?
A. Joe T. Patterson.
Q. Are you the Attorney General of the State of Mississippi? 
A. I am.
Q. How long have you been Attorney General?
A. Since January, 1956.
Q. You are a defendant in this lawsuit, aren’t you?
A. I am.
Q. Do you recall that in 1956 there was a statute passed by 

the Mississippi Legislature requiring the posting of 
signs on carrier terminals, the waiting rooms thereof?

A. I don't recall specifically.



411
(R-1184)

BY MR. SHAKOS: The statute speaks for itself, whatever 
it provides.
BY JUDGE RIVES: I presume she was fixing that date.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: I wanted to fix the date.
BY MR. SHAKOS: The question did not stop with the date. 
BY JUDGE RIVES: If It goes further, of course, the 
statute speaks for itself.
BY MS. MOTLEY: I was trying to establish the date.

Q. Do you recall the date?
(R-1185)A. I donft recall the date. The statute will show. It is

set out in the statute book and the annotation thereunder 
will show what session of the legislature the statute 
was enacted.

Q. Have you read the Complaint in this case?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Have you read the statutes referred to in the Complaint?
A. Sure, before the Complaint was ever filed, I have read 

those statutes.
Q. But you are familiar with those statutes referred to in 

the Complaint?
A. Sure. I sat down and read them, as I read the Complaint. 
Q. I fd like to call your attention to Section 7787.5 of the 

Mississippi Code and ask you If you recall the enactment 
of that statute in the year 1958. (hands to witness)

A. It*s obvious it was enacted in 1958 because the statute
so states. "Sources, laws, 1958, Chapter 258, paragraphs



412
(R-1185)

1 to 3.”
Q. Thank you. Do you recall that in the year 1956 there was 

a decision rendered by the Supreme Court involving bus 
segregation in the City of Montgomery, Alabama?

BY MR. SHARDS: The Opinion speaks for itself, and the 
Opinion carried a date line, all in writing.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Are you objecting?
BY MR. SHARDS: I do. When she refers to "Itoes he re­
call an opinion was rendered by the court."

(R-1186)
BY JUDGE RIVES: I think the question obviously is 
just prefatory to some other question.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: I’m trying to establish the relation­
ship-—
BY MR. SHARDS: She doesn’t limit her question to that 
though, Your Honor. That’s what prompts me to object.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: What I was really trying to get at was 
that this statute was enacted following the Supreme 
Court’s decision in that case and that at that time —  
BY JUDGE RIVES: Just ask him that question.

Q. Isn’t it a fact this statute was enacted following the 
Supreme Court's decision in 1956?

A. I don’t know.
0,. You don’t recall that?
A. I don’t recall that. I certainly do not.
Q. Do you recall making any public statement regarding the



413
(R-1186)

Supreme Court's decision at that time?
A. I do not.

BY MR, SHAKOS: That is both incompetent and immaterial 
in this lawsuit. If she is driving where the Court and 
I both may suspicion she is driving, let her get to the 
point and the objection will be made.
BY JUDGE RIVES: What is the relevancy?
BY MRS, MOTLEY: I'll ask the next question while I get 
to the point.

(R-II87)Q. As the Attorney General of the State of Mississippi, what 
do you understand the racial policy of the State of 
Mississippi to be with respect to public transportation 
facilities?

BY MR. SHAKOS: We object to that, as to what he under­
stands the racial policy to be. First, it depends upon 
the wording of the statute. What he thinks about what 
a statute is or isn't is entirely different. As to his 
own personal, private opinion, or as Attorney General, 
that too could be nothing but a conclusion or opinion, 
and the statutes speak for themselves. That is not 
dissimilar to --
BY JUDGE RIVES: The objection to that is practically 
the same as you asked the Mayor, and the objection would 
be sustained under the same ruling. You may develop 
what you would propose to prove.



(R-1187)
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Yes, sir. We would offer It then 
under the provisions of Rule 43-c.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Understand this is not evidence but 
is what he would testify if he were permitted to testify-. 
BY MRS. MOTLEY: That's right.
BY JUDGE RIVES: The objection is sustained under that 
ruling.
BY MR. O'MARA: Will the Court have Counsel let us know 
when she is finished with that?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Yes.

(1188)
Q. You want to answer the question.
A. State the question again.

BY MR. SHARDS: flay the comments made on behalf of the 
Attorney General in connection with the objection on 
the Mayor's testimony, upon the ruling of the Court to 
permit the record to be made, be taken as repeated in 
effect?
BY JUDGE RIVES: It may be taken as repeated.

A. State your question again.
(The last question was read.)
A. What do you mean by the question? —  Racial policy with 

regard to transportation facilities.
Q. I mean in the State of Mississippi, as the evidence in 

this case shows, there are a number of transportation 
facilities, and the question I am asking you is what the



415
(R-1188)

racial policy of the State of Mississippi is with res­
pect to those facilities.

BY MR. SHAKOS: I realize this is only making the record, 
hut Counsel, in my judgment, in the interest of a tight 
record in this case, is commenting upon the weight of 
this testimony and the effect of it.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: 1 merely said the evidence showed there 
were transportation facilities in the State of Missis­
sippi.

(R-1189)BY JUDGE RIVES: That's all.
BY MR, SHARDS: That was not my recollection, and I 
won't burden the Court with having the reporter repeat 
it, but that is not the connotation I got from the 
question.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Very well. You may proceed.

A. I don't ride the public transportation facilities of the 
state very much. The last time I took a trip on the 
train, I believe I rode "The City of New Orleans" from 
Jackson to Chicago. That is integrated from one end to 
the other. I can say that from personal experience. 
Riding airplanes, which I do quite often, there are 
certainly no efforts to segregate passengers there.

Q. This is by the state, you are talking about?
A. I'm talking about in the State of Mississippi.
Q. I'm directing your attention to state policy, not the



4lS

(R-1189)
policy of the carrier.

A. I’m talking about what actually happens. And I presume 
that is what you are trying to get at.

Q. What I’m trying to get at, Mr. Attorney General, is state 
policy. Now, you understand the carrier may have one 
policy and the state may have another. What I ’m trying 
to get at is state policy.

A. I understand what you’re trying to get at, Counselor,
but what I’m saying to you is that there is no effort at
segregation on public transportation facilities In the
state. I have not prosecuted anybody under those

(R-1190) „statutesj I haven’t threatened to prosecute anybody.
Q. Are you saying the policy of the State of Mississippi is

integration on these?
A. I am saying what actually happens. You are dealing with 

a generality and a theoretical proposition.
Q. What about the buses?

BY MR. SHANDS: What about what?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: He had referred to the train, right?

A. How’s that?
Q. You had referred to the train?
A. That’s right, the Illinois Central.
q . And you referred to the airport, and now I’m asking what 

about the buses.

BY MR. SHANDS: I think he said —



(R-1190)
BY WITNESS: Let me answer the question.

A. You just heard a member of the colored race sit here and 
say she sat where she pleased, and counsel told her it 
was all right to sit where she pleased, on a Trailways 
bus.

q . That was a representative of the carrier. I'm asking you
as to the Attorney General of the State of Mississippi
what the state policy is. 

not
A. The state does/attempt to supervise and operate the public 

transportation utilities in the state.
(R-1191)A. It doesn't?
A. It does not.
Q. What is the state's policy then on race on these facili­

ties?
A. I have just told you the state makes no effort to super­

vise public carriers of the state, and the last train I 
rode was about eighty percent colored, twenty percent 
white, with the whites scattered over about a 22-car 
train. I don't know what else you would want by 
integration.

Q« That statute which you read a moment ago, which was enact­
ed in 1956, would you say that statute reflects the 
policy of the State of Mississippi?

A. That is a matter of opinion.
Q. Well, in your opinion?
A. Purely a matter of personal opinion. The legislature saw



4l8

(R-1191)
fit to enact it. I'm not a member of the legislative 
branch. The majority of the legislature obviously 
voted for it.

Q. I understand that, but I'm asking whether in your opinion 
as the Attorney General of the State of Mississippi this 
statute reflects the policy of the State of Mississippi. 

A. I would say that statute obviously reflected the attitude 
of the legislature at the time of its enactment.

Q,. Let me direct your attention to Section 7786, which I
assume you are familiar with, which is one of the sta­
tutes referred to in the Complaint, and ask you whether 
in your opinion as the Attorney General of the State of

(R-1192) „ ^  04.Mississippi that statute reflects the policy of the State
of Mississippi.

A. My answer to that would be the same.
Q. What was that?
A. My answer was that evidently it was the attitude of the 

legislature inl956 at the time of the enactment of that 
statute.

Q. What is your attitude —
A. They were there as representatives of their respective 

counties.

BI MR. SHARDS: As I recall, this statute 7786 —
BY WITNESS: —  That statute was last revised in 1944.
BY MR.. SHARDS: That is what I was about to call to the 
attention of the Court. I was looking for the pocket



419
(R-1192)

part. So that is a l44 statute instead of what counsel 
refers to as a *56 statute.
BY MS. MOTLEY: Tne first one is the '56 statute, and 
this is another one I am referring to, which is one of 
those cited in the Complaint.
BY MR. SHANDS: You are talking about 7786?
BY WITNESS: 7786 goes back as far as the Code of 1906, 
Section 406l, and was last amended or revised in 1944 
by Chapter 267 of the Laws of 1944.
BY M S ,  MOTLEY: That is correct.

Q. Now, let me direct your attention to Section 7786-01, with 
(R-1193)which I assume you are familiar and is cited in the 

Complaint, and ask if that statute in your opinion as 
the Attorney General of the State of Mississippi reflects 
the policy of the State.

BY M .  SHANDS: You are still making your record?
BY MS. MOTLEY: Yes, sir.

A. Well, that is the penalty section and it refers to seve­
ral other sections. That too lists its source "Laws of 
1944, Chapter 267," and it's the penalty provision 
attached to these other sections.

Q. The same with respect to Section 7787. The same question, 
A* Yes, that is a penalty provision, applies to railway 

officers and employees.
Q. As Attorney General, does that reflect the policy of the



420

(R-1193)
State of Mississippi?

A. YOU* ve never made plain to me what you mean by policy of 
the State of Mississippi. That is a law on the statute 
books of the State of Mississippi, yes.

Q. You don't understand what I mean by state policy?
A. Don't every law reflect policy*.
Q,. Every law does not reflect policy?
A. No. Lots of laws are not popular. We have a prohibition 

law in Mississippi, but I don't think that reflects the 
policy.

Q. These segregation laws are unpopular in Mississippi?
r(R-1154) „ . _ t 4 .
I A. I'll say those laws have not been used in I don’t know

when by anybody, by myself, the district attorney or
county attorney, all of whom have power to act on them.

Q. Aid you say these laws are unpopular in Mississippi?
A. I say they are not being used in this state.
Q. Let me ask you then, are they unpopular in the State of 

Mississippi?
A. I don't know whether they are popular or unpopular.

BY MR. SHANDS: We object to that.
BY JUDGE RIVES: I've already sustained the objection 
to this entire set of questions.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: The Attorney General has said that 
laws do not necessarily reflect policies; he said there 
are some laws which are popular and some which are un­
popular, implying that those laws which are popular re-



421
(R-1194)

fleeted the policy. That is why I'm asking the ques­
tion.

Q. Is that what you were trying to say?
A. No, I didn't say that at all.
Q. Would you please explain what you meant by that?
A. What I think you are wanting me to say is that these laws 

reflect the attitude of every man and woman in Mississip­
pi, I can't say that and you couldn't either.

Q. I'm asking you whether it reflects the attitude of every 
official of the State of Mississippi,

A. It reflected the attitude of the legislature at the time 
they enacted those laws. That is all I can say with 

(R-1195)certainty or anyone else could say, I think.
Q. Does it reflect your attitude as Attorney General of the 

State of Mississippi?
A. In what way?
Q. In enforcing segregation.
A. I've told you I have been Attorney General for six years 

and I have never instituted a prosecution under penalty 
of those statutes, neither has a district attorney or a 
county attorney, to my knowledge, and they all have the 
same authority in the matter as I have.

Q. I asked whether it reflected your policy.
A. As to what I personally believe?
Q,. As Attorney General. Now, all these questions are 

directed toyou as the Attorney General of the State,



422
(R-1195)
A. Well, my policy has been that I have filed no prosecution 

toward any individual or carrier under any of those 
statutes. I might add I fve been in the Attorney Gene­
ral’s office since December of ’47, and I don’t know 
of any instance during that entire time that a prosecu­
tion has been brought under it.

Q. Is it your policy as the Attorney General of Mississippi 
to enforce segregation on public transportation?

A. I Have brought no actions whatsoever to compel segrega­
tion on any public utility or transportation facility. 

(The last question was read by the reporter.)
A. I said in six years time I have brought no complaints 

toward an individual or a carrier in an effort to en- 
(R-1196)

force segregation on public transportation facilities.
Q. Let me ask you that question apart from these statutes.

Is it your policy as the Attorney General of the State 
of Mississippi to enforce segregation on public car­
riers?

A. I said I have not.

El MR. SHANDS: We think the witness answered that four 
or five times.
BY MRS, MOTLEY: He answered the first with respect 
to the statutes, I am now asking him apart from the 
statute whether he has the policy as the Attorney Gene­
ral.
BY THE COURT: With that you, may proceed.



425
(R-1196)
A. Beyond the statute, I would have no authority. I can only 

do that which I am authorized to do by statute.
Q. But you have no policy to enforce segregation as Attorney 

General of Mississippi, Is that what yourre saying?
A. My policy Is to enforce the laws of the State of Missis­

sippi when I feel like it should be done and when I 
have complaints from citizens and public officials re­
questing me to do so.

Q. Are there any persons on your staff as Attorney General 
who are authorized to enforce any of the laws of the 
state, or is that done solely by the local police?

A. What do you mean?
(R-1197)Q. Do members of your staff actually go out and inspect the 

terminals, for example?
A. No.
Q. To see whether they are complying with the law?
A. No.

BY M S .  MOTLEY: This is a certified copy of an article 
in STATE TIMES dated April 24, 1956 (Hands to counsel 
opposite.)
BY MRS. SHANDS: You are still traveling under your 
making of a record?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Yes, of policy, that is right.
BY MR. SHANDS: We have an observation. She claims 
a certified copy of a newspaper.
BY JUDGE RIVES: No question had been asked. None of



4 24
(R-1197)

this is going in evidence. ¥e are singly letting her 
make a record of what she proposes to prove,
BY MR. CLARK: Your Honor is only permitting her to 
make a record because there is some division among the 
Court as to whether the evidence is possibly permissible? 
BY JUDGE RIVES: We are letting her proceed under the 
Rules and make a record of what she proposes to prove.

Q,. Mr. Attorney General, I !d like to show you this copy of 
the front page of the STATE TIMES dated Tuesday, April 
24, 1956, and ask you to read the headline and the 
heading here and the first sentence attributed to you 
there.

(R-1198)
BY MR. SHARDS: May we let the record show further that 
the newspapers contains only hearsay and that no news­
paper would be admissible to be examined from or about 
under any circumstances.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You have got me now. The objection has 
already been sustained and she is simply making her 
record.
BY MR. SHARDS: I merely wanted that point. I made with 
deference to the Court, of course. I merely did not 
want the record to be silent on that particular point on 
this additional phase of it.
BY JUDGE RIVES: As I understand it, she is simply cal­
ling his attrition to a newspaper article now.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Yes, sir, and a statement attirbuted to



425
(R—1198) 

him.
BY MR. SHARDS: She asked, him to read from it.
BY- JUDGE RIVES: She is referring to some statement at­
tributed to him in the article.

Q. Would you proceed to read the headline?
A. (reading) "STATE TIMES* Jackson, Mississippi, Tuesday,

April 24, 1956 -- MONTGOMERY DESEGREGATES BU S E S ----"
I presume you want me to read the headline in the middle? 

Q. Yes.
A. "Patterson pledges continued resistance in buses and 

schools."
Q. And the first sentence that follows.
A. "State Attorney Genwral, Joe T. Patterson, pledged today
(R-1199)that Mississippi would continue to resist segregation 

efforts at all levels."
Q. Did the newspaper quote you correctly?
A. I don't know whether they did or not. I said then and I 

will say now that I will certainly attempt to enforce the 
laws of the State of Mississippi at any and all times 
I think it necessary for me to do so.

Q. Including the segregation laws?
A. If conditions should arise to such a point that I thought 

it was necessary to bring them into effect, yes.

BY MRS. MOTLEY: I would like to announce at this 
point we have completed our record on the question of



426

(R-1199)
policy.
m  JUDGE RIVES: Very well. Go back on the record.
This testimony from now on is being offered for admis­
sion.

Q. Mr. Attorney General, Ifd like to direct your attention 
now to Section 2087.5, which is one of the statutes re­
ferred to in the Complaint, disorderly conduct statute, 
which I assume you are familiar with. Now, isn’t it a 
fact that that statute was enacted in i960 after some 
Negroes in Biloxi, Mississippi, went on the beach there?

A. That, I don’t know. It was enacted in i960. I don’t 
know just what the date of that occurrence was and the 
date of the enactement of this statute. That I couldn’t 
say.

Q, Have any Negroes been arrested in the last six months for
(R-1200)violation of this statute for having gone into transpor­

tation facilities reserved for whites?
A. None to my knowledge.
Q. You don’t know of any?
A. No.
Q. Let me direct your attention to Section 2087.7 and ask 

you whether to your knowledge any Negroes have been 
arrested for going into transportation facilities re­
served for whites pursuant to that section.

A. None to my knowledge. I don’t direct prosecutions nor 
arrests at the local level. I have nothing whatsoever



427
(R-1200)

to do with them.
Q. And the same with respect to Section 2087.5?
A. That is right.
Q. Same answer?
A. Same answer.
Q. 2089.5, I ’m sorry.
A. Let me see. Right. The Attorney General of the State of 

Mississippi does not direct prosecutions at the local 
level, does not direct the bringing of charges.

Q. Did you hear the chief of police testify today?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you hear him testify that when some Negroes and whites 

came into the white waiting room of the Trailway depot 
here in Jackson within the last six months there was a 
call to or from your office?

A. No, I didn’t hear him testify to that.
(R-1201)
Q. You didn’t hear it?
A. No, and I heard all his testimony. He didn't say any­

thing about a call coming into my office on whites and 
Negroes going into a local place.

Q. What did you hear him say?
A. I heard his entire testimony, counsel. Be specific.
Q. What did you hear him say regarding a call to your office^

BY MR. SHANDS: Did you say to or from?

Q. To your office --  Or, from your office.



*f28

(R-1201)
A. Which do you mean?
Q. Prom. Let's take from to start with.
A. As I understood him, I understood he said he had a call 

from our office about a day before the so-called Free­
dom Riders came into Mississippi and was asked did he 
know about that.

Q. And you say you don't know anything about an arrest pur­
suant to these statutes we have just referred to?

A. I do not.
Q. Did you hear Captain Ray testify that there was a meeting 

in the Mayor's office at which you and a representative 
of your office were present?

A. I don't think Captain Ray has testified.

BY MR. SHANDS: Captain Ray has not testified.
Q. Beg your pardon. It is Rayfield, Chief of Police.
A. Now restate the question.
(Last question was read by the reporter.)
(1202)
A. Yes, I heard him.
Q* Were you present at that meeting?
A, I have conferred with Chief Rayfield and the mayor, I 

believe, on two occasions in the mayor's office.
Q. On these so-called freedom riders?
A. Not necessary any so-called Freedom Riders. On other r 

matters. I don't think it is unusual for the Attorney 
General of a state to confer with law enforcement 
officers of the state, particularly of a capital city.



429
(R-1202)
Q. Let me ask you, did you attend that meeting?
A. I said yes.
Q. With Chief Rayfield?
A. Yes.
Q. And the Freedom Riders were discussed at that meeting?
A. They certainly were because on the day before we had read 

in the newspaper of these people, the announcements 
they had made in the City of Washington, that they were 
coming South and were coming for the deliberate purpose 
of creating riot and disorder. I think the mayor and 
chief of police and I as Attorney General would have 
been derelict in our duties if we had not made prepara­
tions to see that did not happen in Mississippi as it 
had just happened the day before in Alabama. The re­
sult of our efforts show, I think, the wisdom of our 
efforts, because there were no riots, no disorders on 
the part of anybody in the State of Mississippi, a 
tribute to the people of Mississippi and its law en­
forcement officers.

(R-12Q5)
Q. Now, you say you heard that they were corning here for the 

deliberate purpose of creating riots and disorder?
A. That is what they said publicly.
Q. Who is "they"?
A. The announcement that was made in Washington by the 

spokesman for C.O.R.E,
Q. Who is that?



(R-1203)
A. I don’t know. I read that they had made that announce­

ment and I read of what happened in the State of Ala­
bama, and the same group was coming to Mississippi.

Q. Where did you read that statement?
A, It was general knowledge in every newspaper and over the 

radios.
Q. That they were coming for the specific purpose of ---
A. Coming for the deliberate purpose of provoking --
Q. —  riot and disorder?
A. Absolutely.
Q. You read that in the newspapers?
A. Yes, I read that. I know what you are driving at. They 

didn't say "We are going down and start a riot and 
disorder." They said, "We are going down and crack 
the laws of those states," knowing that would result 
in riots and disorder.

Q. You knew they knew that?
A. Certainly, they knew that, and the U. S. Attorney General 

knew that.
Q. I am asking whether you knew they knew that.
A. Certainly they knew that.
(R-1204)
Q. How do you know they knew that?
A. Because that was the purpose in their coming. I think to 

ask that question is ridiculous.
Q. Bid you ask them what their purpose was in coming?
A. Certainly I did not. Their purpose was obvious.



451
(R-1204)
q . You never conferred with them?
A. Certainly not.
q . In this meeting in the mayor's office, it was determined 

at that meeting, according to Chief Rayfield, the 
section of the law pursuant to which they would be 
arrested.

A. I don’t recall that it was. Our main concern at that 
meeting was to see to it that riot and disorder did 
not occur in the City of Jackson.

Q. Isn't It a fact at that meeting It was determined that 
these people would be arrested when they came in?

A. I don't recall that it was.
Q. What was determined there?
A. Because they could have ridden on through the City of 

Jackson and none of this would have ever occurred.
Q. Wasn’t it determined if they stopped here they would be 

arrested?
A. It might have been discussed that if they stopped and if 

certain things happened it would become necessary to 
make arrests.

Q. What things were discussed?
A. Our meeting was primarily for the purpose of seeing that 

riot and disorder did not occur. I went on the
(R-1205)the evening beforethey got here, and called upon the 

people of Mississippi to stand back and let law and 
order prevail, which they did do, much to the dis-



(R-1205)
appointment of your clients and others who worked at 
this.

Q. At this meeting, what facts and circumstances were dis­
cussed?

A. I don't remember the details.
Q. Can I finish the question?
A. No.
Q. What facts and circumstances were discussed at this 

meeting as being the basis for arrests?
A. I don't recall that was discussed. It could have been, 

but in an hour or two's discussions in a thing like 
that, you can certainly appreciate that minor details 
would not be remembered because, frankly, the matter 
of arrests was the least of our concern. Our concern 
was the preservation of peace and order and not par­
ticularly arresting somebody.

0. Did you instruct the chief of police to ----
A. No, I did not attempt to instruct the chief of police. I 

never attempt to instruct local officers as to what 
they should or should not do.

Q. Did you discuss with the chief of police what steps he 
was going to take to preserve law and order.

A. Yes, we discussed plans.
Q. What were those plans?
A. The plan was to do exactly what they did, first of all to
(R-1206)

keep down riot and disorder, and these arrests



433
(R-1206)

necessarily followed. They could have been easily 
avoided had your clients only wanted them avoided.
They came for that purpose, as I am sure you know.

Q. Now, as the Attorney General of Mississippi, you are 
willing to enforce all of these statutes referred to 
in the Complaint, aren’t you?

BY MR. SKANDS: I think the Attorney General has already 
stated that what he will do is enforce the laws of 
Mississippi.

A, I will state again, I will perform my duties as Attorney 
General as I am charged with the laws of the State of 
Mississippi to do.

Q. Let me ask you this: Is it your duty to enforce the laws 
referred to in the Complaint?

A, It Is my duty to enforce all laws in the state.
Q. I am asking you about the laws referred to in the Com­

plaint.
A. Well, counsel, that Is elementary. It is my duty to en­

force all the laws of the state that I am called upon or 
that is inposed upon me to enforce by statute.

Q,. Does that include the statute that —
A. The statutes speaks for themselves.
Q. Does that include the statutes referred to in the Com­

plaint?
A. The statutes speak for themselves.
Q. I am asking about your willingness to enforce the sta-



(R-1207)
434

tates.
A. I have stated it is my duty to enforce the laws of the 

state when it is imposed upon me by law to do so and 
when I think it proper to do so.

Q. Let me show you Section 7784 of the Mississippi Code, 
which is one of the statutes referred to in the 
Complaint, and ask if you are willing to enforce that 
provision?

BY MR. SHAKOS: As to what he would enforce and would 
not enforce, the Attorney General has unequivocally said 
he will perform his duties under the laws of the State 
of Mississippi. He has repeated that to her and that,
I think, is the extent of his statement.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Are you objecting to this question?
BY MR. SHAKOS: Yes, sir; as to whether he will or will 
not is hypothetical in the first place; in the second 
place, it is an effor_t to ask him to pre-judge him 
something on a hypothetical case; thirdly, all inthe 
world this man can possibly do is to say that he will 
perform his duties under the laws of this state. Now, 
that is as far as any conscientious officer can go.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Of course, the Attorney General ans­
wered that he would enforce the law of the State of 
Mississippi, but in our opinion he is still subject to 
be asked if he would consider this section 7784 a valid 
law that would affect his performance of duties. Under



435
(R-1207)

the Attorney GeneralTs duties, we judiciously know that 
he takes an oath to enforce the Constitution of the 

(R-1208)
United States, to respect the Constitution of the 
United States, and she asks if this is avalid law 
that would affect the performance of his duties.
What he considers the law may determine the policy.
You may ask him whether he considers this a valid 
law that, as the Attorney General of the State of 
Mississippi, would affect the performance of his duty. 
BY MR. SHANES: May I amplify the record as to the 
ground of my objection?
BY JUDGE RJVES: You may assign any grounds you see fit. 
BY MR. SHANES: One: the question calls for a hypo­
thetical answer based on no factual occurrence or basis; 
two: it is dealing in the future with something which 
has not arrived, has not presented itself to a public 
officer, and the effect of the answer, if required by 
the Court, will be to make this man, the Attorney Gene­
ral of the State, commit himself in advance of any 
occasion for committing himself; three: the Attorney 
General's testimony has been that he will perform his 
duties under the laws of Mississippi. When he says 
that, it then becomes a question of law for this 
Court to determine, rather than the function of the 
witness; four: the further reason is that the Court is 
in effect asking him to give an opinion, using the



H-36

(R-1208)
language of the presiding judge, whether the act is 
valid if he would enforce it, and that is, in our judg­
ment, usurping the prerogative of the judiciary 

(R-1209)
department of the state and the federal government.
If this Court is to be persuaded by his opinion of 
what is and isn't the law from the witness stand, then 
an odd situation is created.
BY JUDGE RIVES: This issue involves not only what the 
law is, but what the policy of the State of Mississippi 
is and what the policy of the Attorney General as 
the attorney general of the State of Mississippi is.
The Court is not asking him this, but I am permitting 
counsel to ask him the question.
BY MR, SHARDS: I am not arguing with the Court, but, 
in deference to the Court, this Court has already 
ruled that as a matter of policy it is not admissible. 
She has called upon him as to the policy, and the Court 
permitted her to make a record, and she has announced 
she is through with that.
BY THE COURT: On a particular question, asking the 
witness what his opinion of the policy of Mississippi 
was. Now, she is detailing the fact to him in asking 
this question. I don’t care to debate the question 
with you. I will permit her to ask that question.
BY MR, SHARDS: Is this still under the excluded evi­
dence?



437
(R-1209)

BY JUDGE RIVES: No, sir, this is not under any ex­
clusion.
BY MR. SHANDS: Very well. Note our exception.

(R-1210)
(Mrs. Motley, continuing:)
Q. I will ask you, Mu. Attorney General, whether that sec­

tion 7784 is a valid statute which would affect you as 
Attorney General in the performance of your duty?

A. Affect me? What do you mean hy affect me? What do you 
mean if it's a valid statute and would it affect me 
as Attorney General?

Q. Would it concern your duties as attorney general?
A. It may and may not. This is a statute that had its 

origin in 1892.
Q,. That is right.
A. Last amended in 1904.
Q. That is right.
A. I have stated to you previously that the Attorney Gene­

ral’s office does not attempt to supervise public car­
riers in the state, that no prosecutions, so far as I 
know, have been brought against a public carrier under 
this statute to which you refer here tnow in the past - 
I ’ll say twenty years or more.

Q. You consider that a valid statute?
A. It is still onthe statute books, it has not beendeclared 

unconstitutional, and that is for a court to determine; 
not me.



438
(R-1210)
Q. You are a lawyer, aren't you, and attorney general?
A, I am a lawyer, tut I am not the Supreme Court of the 

United States,
Q, But you are the Attorney General of Mississippi.
A. Yes, definitely so.
Q. So, the answer to the question is yes, you consider that 
(R-1 2 1 1)a valid statute which would affect you in the perfor­

mance of your duty?
A. I didn't say that.

BY MR. SHARDS: I want the record to show this: that 
if there is any doubt about it, we will pause here and 
go back to her calling this man to the stand. If my 
recollection serves me correctly, she did not call him 
as an adverse witness.
BY THE COURT: Nothing was said about being an adverse 
witness.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: No, sir, I did not.
BY MR. SHANDS: Now then, she has gone much, much too 
far. We did not want to bring that point out until 
this phase, but we say now that she has gone beyond 
any conceivable limitation on direct examination.
BY THE COURT; All of the questions you have asked the 
Attorney General is everything the Court can get any 
benefit from.

Q. Have you ever made any public announcement to the effect



439
/ (R-1 2 1 1)

;

that these laws referred to In the Complaint would not 
be enforced?

A. Would not be enforced?
Q. That is right.
A. Certainly not.

\ (R-12 12)
\Q. Have you written any opinions as Attorney General of the 

state regarding any of these sections referred to in 
the Complaint?

A. None I know of.

BY MRS. MOTLEX: I think that is all the questions we 
have of this witness.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Any cross examination?
BY MR. SHARDS: I have only this question.

EXAMINATION
BY MR. SABNDS;

Q. Mr. Patterson, do I understand you correctly to say you 
have never threatened any one of the three plaintiffs 
in this lawsuit with the enforcement of any statute 
against them?

A. That is correct. So far as I know — .
Q. Have you threatened to enforce any of the statutes men­

tioned in this Complaint against any of these plaintiffs. 
A. None whatsoever. In fact, the first time I ever saw any 

one of these three plaintiffs to my knowledge was here 
in this courtroom.



H O
(R-1212)
Q. Do I understand your testimony to have been that you have 

not threatened to enforce them against anyone else?
A. That Is correct.
q . Do I further understand your testimony to he that what 

you have said to this court Is that you propose to per­
form your duty under the law, that and no more?

(R-1215)A. That Is correct.

BY MR. SHARDS: No further questions.
BY THE WITNESS: Could I make this observation?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes, you are an officer of the court 
and you may.
BY THE WITNESS: %  sole purpose, since the beginning 
of these instigated troubles that were instigated out­
side our state and brought to our state, has been the 
preservation of peace and order within the borders of 
the State of Mississippi. I have undertaken that, 
along with all other public officials and law enforce­
ment officers of this state. I publicly appealed to the 
people of this state to stand back and let law and order 
prevail and let constituted authorities deal with this 
matter, rather than have incidents occur like that which 
occurred in our neighboring state of Alabama. In that 
we have wholly succeeded to this good day, which is 
a tribute to the people of Mississippi and its consti­
tuted authorities, and we have succeeded in doing that 
in spite of the obstacles that have been thrown in our



way by those who were bitterly disappointed because 
we didn’t have those incidents. And, to my amazement 
and surprise, the Attorney General of the United States 
seemed to find himself on the side of those who would 
create these disorders and troubles, rather than on the 
side of the State of Mississippi. That is all I care to 
say.

(Witness excused)
(R-1214)

BY MRS. MOTLEY: At this time we would like the Court 
to reconsider the rulings it has made throughout regard­
ing testimony by carriers and others as to the posting 
of signs pursuant to state statute, which the Court 
ruled was not admissible as against the Attorney General, 
in view of the Attorney General’s testimony on the stand 
just now that he intends to enforce all of the laws of 
the State of Mississippi, including these segregation 
laws.
BY JUDGE RIVES: In other words, you reoffer all of 
that testimony as against the Attorney General?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: That is right. The Court hasruled it 
was not admissible against the Attorney General.
BY JUDGE RIVES: The posting of the signs, as the Court 
has understood, has not been at the direction of, or 
the Attorney General lias had no connection with the 
actual postings of the signs, and what he would do if 
the occasion arose, we don’t think is enough to permit



(R-1214)
the evidence to be Introduced against the Attorney 
General, the posting of the signs. We adhere to the 
ruling.
BY MRS. MOTLEY; In that case, we call Police Captain 
J. L. Ray.

J. L. RAX’, called as a witness and having been duly sworn, 
testified as follows;

DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MOTLEY;
Q. Please state your full name.
(R-1215)
A. J. L. Ray.
Q. What is your position?
A. Captain of Police.
Q. How long have you been captain of police?
A. About 7 years.
Q. Was that captain of the police department in theCity of 

Jackson?
A. That is correct.
Q. Have you ever visited the terminal of the Illinois Cen­

tral here in the City of Jackson?
A. Many times,
Q, Have you been there in the last six months?
A. Many times.
0,. When you have been at the Illinois Central, have you 

noticed any signs on the sidewalk or anywhere on the 
building there?



(R-1215)
A. Yes, there are signs.
Q. What do the signs say?
A. Well, there are several different types signs. I don't 

know just which type you are talking about.
Q. Are there any signs which relate to the waiting room?
A. Yes.
Q. What do they say?
A. On the front I believe it says "WHITE WAITING ROOM."
Q, What else does it say on that sign?
A. "By Order of the Police Department."
Q. Is there a sign somewhere else in front of another waiting 

room?
(R-1216)
A. I am not familiar with just exactly where that sign is, 

but I have noticed one there.
Q. What does it say?
A. "COLORED WAITING ROOM ONLY - By Order of Police Depart­

ment. "
Q. Where are these signs located?
A. On the sidewalk.
Q. Are there any in the terminal?
A. Yes, I believe there are some in the terminal.
Q. Where in the terminal?
A. They are in the hallway between the waiting rooms.
Q. AI would like to direct your attention to the waiting

room in which there is a sign which says "WHITE WAITING 
ROOM" and ask you if in the last six months you have



m

(R-1216)
arrested any Negroes In that waiting room?

A. I have arrested Negroes and whites in that waiting room. 
Q. How many would you say you have arrested in there?
A. I can't answer that; I don't know.
Q. When did this occur?
A. At different times.
Q,. How many different times?
A. I don't know that either.
Q. What were the Negroes doing that you arrested in there? 
A. What were they doing?
Q. Yes.
A. They came here for the purpose of causing trouble, along 

with the whites, and their presence there caused a 
disturbance, and they were arrested.

Q. I didn't ask you what their purpose was — .
(R-1217)BY MR. CLARK: We object to counsel interrupting the 

witness before he has had a chance to complete his 
answer.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Sorry.

Q. I asked you what they were doing, not what their purpose 
was, the Negroes. Let's limit it to that. What were 
they doing?

A. They came in the terminal.
Q. What did they do?
A. They came in and some of them had seats and some of them 

stood.



445
(R-1217)
Q. What else did they do?
A. That is about all.
Q. Were they armed?
A. I never found any of them armed.
Q,. Were they loud?
A. No.
Q. Did they use any curse words?
A. No.
Q. Did they strike anybody?
A. No.
Q. Did they threaten anybody?
A. No.
Q,. Did you arrest them?
A. I sure did.
(R-1218)
Q. For what?
A, Because their presence provoked people and caused them 

to become disturbed, and I felt it best to maintain 
law and order and to order them to leave there. 'When 
they refused to obey my order, they were arrested.

Q. Would you explain what you mean by "their presence there 
provoked people"?

A. Well, as I stated earlier, we had advance notice that they 
were coming to Jackson to create an incident similar 
to what has happened inother cities, and my duty there 
was to maintain law and order, and I felt it best to 
get the root of the trouble out of there, and that is



446
(R-1218)

when I ordered them to leave.
Q. What did they do in violation of law and order?
A. When I ordered them to leave, they just stood there, as 

though they hadn't heard me say a word. I repeated that 
order several times, and they refused to obey, and that 
is when I arrested them.

Q. You say you got advance notice they were coming. Who 
notified you they were coming?

A. Well, through the regular police channels and most of the 
time it was pretty widely publicized.

Q. You don't know anyone specifically who notified you they 
were coming?

A. No, I don't know specifically who notified me.
Q. At the time you arrested these Negroes in the white 

waiting room of the Illinois Central, what were the 
white people doing you arrested?

(R-1219)
A. What were they doing?
Q. Yes.
A. They were doing the same thing the Negroes were.
Q. Just took seats?
A. Just stood around and took seats, refused to obey orders.
Q. Were they with the Negroes?
A. At times they were. Some were, and some wasn’t.
Q. Were there any other people in the terminal at that time?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. In the white waiting room?



(R-1219)
A. Yes.
Q. What were they doing?
A. When this group would enter, sometimes they would move 

toward them, and prior to their coming they would make 
remarks concerning this group that had been announced 
that they were coming and had been publicized that they 
were coming. By the way, we ordered other people to 
leave there, and they obeyed our orders, and had they 
not obeyed our orders we would have arrested them.

Q. You say prior to the time these people you arrested arri­
ved there were some people who made remarks about them? 

A. They made remarks concerning the group that was en route 
to coming to Jackson.

Q. What remarks did they make?
A. Well, they referred to them as agitators and trouble 

makers and similar things to that.
Q. Did they threaten to hit them?
A. They dicing exactly threaten to hit them, no, I wouldn't 
(R-1220)exactly say, but in my opinion they probably would have. 
Q. Did you arrest them?
A. I didn't arrest them. I —
Q,. Were they there when —

BY MR. CLARK: We object to counsel interrupting the 
witness before he has had a chance to answer the last 
question she asked.
BY MRS.. MOTLEY: I thought he had finished. I wasn't



(R-1220)
intentionally trying to interrupt him.

A. I think then it is the duty of any police officer to de­
termine the root of trouble and remove the root of the 
trouble. These people that were arrested, that was 
the root of the trouble, because it would be peaceful 
before they arrived, and after they were removed it 
would be peaceful again.

Q. Were these people who made the remarks there when the peo­
ple you arrested arrived?

A. Repeat that question.
Q. These people who made the remarks. You said there were 

some people who made remarks before these people you 
arrested arrived. Is that right?

A. Yes.
Q. Were they there when the people you arrested arrived?
A. We removed everybody out of the terminal other than those 

who were waiting on trains to come in or buses to come 
in or either waiting on people to come in on them,

(R-12 2 1)Those that had no business there were removed by orders 
given by us, and had they not obeyed they would have 
been arrested. Yes, some of those people I would say 
that made remarks were there.

Q. Some of them were there?
A. That is correct.
Q. You didn't move them out of there.
A. No, I didn't move them because because there was no act



(R-1221)
that they were going to do. They had expressed them­
selves, but they had not addressed the people that were 
arrested. They hadn't addressed their remarks to them; 
It was just about them. I think that you will find 
that remarks have been made all over the city many times 
concerning these groups of people.

Q,. Now, among the people that you have arrested in the Illi­
nois Central in the white waiting room, has anyone at 
any time attacked any of these people or attempted to 
attack them?

A. We had one incident that happened in the Greyhound Bus 
terminal. It was minor. I think one of the parties 
that was arrested stepped on some other man’s foot, 
and he pushed him off, I believe, and then made an 
affidavit against him.

Q. What was that incident? A Negro or a white person?
A. That was a Negro that stepped on a white person's foot.
Q- Was this intentional —  Did you see it?
A. I didn't see it, no, I did not.
(R-1222)
Q. All right. Directing your attention to the waiting room 

in the Illinois Central where there was a sign that 
said "COLORED WAITING ROOM" have you arrested any white 
people in there in the last six months?

A. I have.
Q* Directing your attention to the Greyhound Bus terminals, 

are there any signs similar to those you described in



450
(R-1222)

the m i n o t s  Central In front of that terminal?
A. I believe there is a sign in front of that terminal.
Q. Is there a sign that says "WHITE WAITING ROOM"?

BY MR, CLARK: We object to leading the witness. This 
is her witness and not a party defendant.

Q. What do the signs say in front of the Greyhound Bus termi­
nal?

A. I believe the sign is similar or like the one we describ­
ed.

Q. Would you describe them?
A. I am not positive that sign is there, but if it is there 

I would describe it just like I did ----

BY MR. CLARK: We object to what he would describe if 
he could remember whether or not there was a sign.
BY JUDGE RrVES: He can state his best recollection.

Q. What is your recollection?
A, That it was one just like the one I described in front of 

the I. 0. terminal.
(R-1223)Q. Were there two signs or one at the Greyhound terminal?

BY MR. CLARK: We object to the question again because 
he hasn't made sufficient identification of knowing 
whether the sign was there or not.

Q* Have you ever been in the Greyhound terminal?



451
(R-1223)
A, Yes, many times.
Q. How many waiting rooms do they have?
A. They have two.
Q. Can you describe the location of them?
A. Well, the main entrance to it, the larger waiting room, 

faces east or Lamar Street. The other one is behind.
It is an L-shaped building. It has an entrance that 
faces south and also another entrance that faces north.

Q. Where are the waiting rooms located in there with rela­
tion to those entrances?

A. One of them faces Lamar Street.
Q. With respect to that one, is there a sign in front of that 

door?
A. At one time there was a sign there.
Q. What does it say?
A. You mean on the door?
Q. No, in front of the door.
A. I believe I have already told you that it was just like 

the one in front of the Illinois Central terminal.
(R-1224)
W. What does it say?
A. "WHITE WAITING ROOM —

BY MR. CLARK: This is the exact objection we made be­
fore. The man is testifying about a sign that might
have been there some time and doesn’t recall ----
BY JUDGE RIVES: I don’t understand there has been much 
dispute. This is a physical fact about the signs, and



452
(R-1224)

most of the witnesses have testified to them. We would 
like to move on.
BY M S ,  MOTLEY: I was trying to get the two waiting 
rooms established, and I asked him about the one in 
which there is a sign in front of the white waiting 
room, because if I had said "white waiting room" without 
establishing there was a sign there, then they would 
have objected to that. So I was trying to get him to 
identify the room to which I am going to address cer­
tain questions.
BY JUDGE RIVES: We pretty well know the captain is 
fairly well familiar with signs on the waiting rooms 
in the bus stations and railroad stations. Those signs 
have been over time and again in the court. Let's get 
to the question you want to ask him about.

Q. Let me direct your attention to the Greyhound Bus termi­
nal and ask whether you have arrested any Negroes in 
front of the waiting room —  in the waiting room in 

(R-1225)
front of which there is a sign which says "WHITE WAITING 
ROOM ONLY"?

A. Yes,
Q. Have you arrested any white persons in the waiting room 

in front of which there is a sign that says "COLORED 
WAITING ROOM ONLY"?

A. Yes, I have arrested both white and colored in both wait­
ing rooms.



(R-1225)
Q. Let me address you as to the Trallways. Have you been 

there?
A. Yes,
Q. Are there two watting rooms there?
A. Yes.
Q, Directing your attention to the Trallways Company, the 

waiting room in front of which there is a sign saying 
"WHITE WAITING ROOM ONLY." Have you arrested any 
Negroes in there?

BY MR. CLARK: We object to that as leading and sugges­
tive, and assumptive of facts not proven in the record. 
BY JUDGE RIVES: Overrule the objection.

A. Yes, I have arrested people there.
Q. Directing your attention to the other waiting room at 

Trail ways in front of which there is a sign saying 
"COLORED WAITING ROOM ONLY", have you arrested any 
people in there?

BY MR. CLARK: Note the same objection as to the last_ 
(R-1226)

BY JUDGE RIVES: Overrule the objection.

Q. Have they been white people?
A. Both white and colored.
Q* What did you arrest those people for?
A. Breach of peace.
Q* With respect to the people you have arrested in the Grey-



(R-1226)
hound bus terminal, what were those people doing in 
there when you arrested them?

A. They had refused to obey my order and they were arrested 
for breach of the peace.

Q, Were they loud and abusive?
A. Wo.
Q. Did they threaten anybody?

BY MR. CLARK: Object to leading.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Wot leading, overrule the objection.

A. Wo.
Q. Directing your attention to the Trailways where you have 

arrested people. The people you have arrested there, 
what were they doing?

A, They had announced in advance, and we had advance notice 
that they were coming to Jackson for the purpose of 
creating an incident similar to what has happened in 
other cities which led to a riot. When they entered 
that terminal, people began being provoked, looked like 
in my opinion there would have been trouble, so I felt 

(R-1227)
it best to get to the root of the trouble and that is 
when I ordered them to leave and move on and move out 
of the terminal. When they refused to obey my order, 
they were arrested. That is what has happened in all 
of these terminals.

Q* When you were arresting these people in the Trailways ter



455
(R-1227)

minal, when was it there were people around that looked 
like they were provoked?

A. When?
GU Yes,
A. When this group of different people would enter there.
Q. Do you remember any specific time?
A. Any time?
Q. Yes. When were these people provoked?
A. When these different groups would enter at the different 

terminals.

BY MR. WATKINS: I am going to object on the ground of 
repetition. We have gone over every one of these ter­
minals two or three times with the same questions.
BY JUDGE RIVES; I think you have shown that the 
people in the terminals were not disorderly, did not 
raise their voices; not any fights or anything of that 
kind, but did refuse to move when the officer told them 
to move, or refused to obey the officer. I think those 
questions are pretty well established on both sides.
BY MRS. MOTLEY; What we are getting at now is whether 
the people standing around were disorderly. He 

(R-1228)
said they were provoked, and I asked him when there were 
such people provoked. I am trying to bring out whether 
there were any people around there who created any dis­
turbance and when he arrested them.
BY MR. CLARK; We believe the same witness has answered



456
(R-1228)

the question twice.
BY JUDGE RIVES: We'll let you ask it one more time, 
and Jet's get to an end of those questions.

Q. When were any people provoked at the Trailways when you 
arrested these people who came here, as you say, to 
create an incident?

A. When these different groups of people would enter the 
terminal, they would move forward as though they in­
tended violence to the different people, and that is 
when I determined the root of the trouble, and at that 
time is when I would order these people to move on that 
were arrested.

Q. You can't name any specific date at which these people 
were provoked?

A. Well, May 24th is the first date that they arrived here.
Q* On May 24th, directing your attention still to Trailways 

bus terminal, what were these people doing you say 
were provoked?

A. What were they doing?
Q. Yes.
A. They would move toward these groups of people that had 

announced they were coming here for a purpose, and they 
(R-1229)

appeared to maybe cause violence to some of these people. 
They came here for the purpose of stirring up trouble, 
and when they entered there they stirred up trouble.



457
(R-1229)
Q, 1*111 talking about the people standing around that moved 

toward the people who came here. Did you arrest any 
of them?

A. No, I said I tried to determine the root of the trouble 
and remove the root of the trouble. In other words, my 
duty is to maintain law and order, and if you can get 
to the root of the trouble, then you don*t have any 
disturbance of the peace.

Q. And the only people you arrested at that time were the 
people that came in?

A. Had they hit anybody, then they would have been arrested.
Q. Have you arrested anybody at the airport terminal?
A. Yes.
Q. What were these people doing you arrested at the terminal?
A. They were announced groups and we had information in ad­

vance they were coming here for the same purpose, to 
cause trouble, so the same circumstances surrounded 
those arrests.

Q. What did these people do? Did they take seats when they 
came in or what?

A. No, I can*t remember just exactly what every one of them 
did without my reports, and I don't have those, but 
they refused to obey the orders after I determined 
that — —

(R-1230)BY MR. CLARK: If the substance of the witness* testi­
mony is in the written report of the JacksonPollce



458
(R-1230)

Department, we submit the police department records 
would be the best evidence. We also renew our objection 
as to repetition.
BY JUDGE RIVES: She hasn't gone into the airport pre­
viously, and we will permit her to ask that.
BY MR. CLARK: Is my objection to the best evidence rule 
overruled?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes, your objection as to the best 
evidence is overruled.

Q. Just let me ask this last question with regard to people 
you arrested at the airport. Were any of them loud 
or abusive?

A. No.
Q,. When you arrested these people, did you make out some 

kind of affidavit?
A. Did I sign an affidavit?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, I did.

BY MRS. MOTLEY: That is all.

CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WATKINS:
Q* Captain Ray, counsel makes much of the presence of people 

arrested on different occasions in various terminals or 
(R-1231)in some particular room of the various terminals. I 

want to ask you this question: If those groups or any



(R-1231)
one or more of those groups had taken a stand and re­
fused to disburse under the conditions then existing on 
the public sidewalks or anywhere else, would you have 
arrested them in the same manner?

A. Yes.
Q. I ‘ 1 1 ask you whether or not in practically every instance 

there were members of both races arrested in exactly 
the same location.

A. That’s correct.
Q. I want to ask you whether the race or color of any indi­

vidual arrested had anything to do with whether or not 
that person was or was not arrested.

A. No, sir, did not.

CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. CLARK:
Q,. I understood you to say in response to a question of coun­

sel that people were not abusive, and I want to know if 
in your opinion as a police officer you felt that they 
abused the order that you gave them to move on at that 
particular time and under those particular circumstances?

A. Yes, sir, they did.
Q. Are you generally familiar with the City of Jackson?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In your opinion as a peace officer of this city, if you 

had not performed your duty as to these particular per-
(R-1232)

sons that you have described to counsel as being arrested



460

(R-1232)
for breach of the peace, would there have been any 
likelihood of breach of the peace in other areas of the 
City of Jackson other than the terminals of these parti­
cular carriers?

A. Yes, I think there would have been.
Q. Were your actions and acts on these times and on these 

occasions what your judgment as a police officer and 
a peace officer of the City of Jackson dictated and in­
dicated to you should be done to preserve peace and 
good order in the City of Jackson under the circum­
stances?

A. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Q,. Was that the sole reason?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. For your actions so taken?
A. That is the reason.

CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. CERNE:
Q. Captain Ray, you described several signs of the Illinois 

Central terminal. Are each of these signs the signs 
that were placed there by your department?

A. I do not know who places the signs there.
Q. But they are all signs that say "By Order of the Police 

Department"? Is that correct?
A. That is correct.



461
(R-1233)

FURTHER CROSS EXAMINATION
El MR. CLARK:
Q. Captain Ray, did Attorney General Joe T. Patterson or 

anyone purporting to be acting on his behalf direct you 
in any way as to what actions you would take as a police 
officer as you have testified here today?

A. No, sir.

(Witness excused)

BY MRS. MOTLEY: I'd like to say that this is our last 
witness and except for the introduction of these docu­
ments, we are through.
BY JUDGE RIVES: And you are going to offer these?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Yes, we are going to offer these 
records in evidence.
BY JUDGE RIVES: What are these? Records of prosecu­
tion of so-called Freedom Riders?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: That is right, affidavits in most 
instances signed by Captain Ray, or whoever the arres­
ting officer was, and the judgments of convictions.
They all are certified by the judge.

JUDGEMIZE: Does that include all of them that were 
arrested? Each and every one?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: No, sir, not each and every one. I 
think we have a total of 288 which were all we got, 
which I think includes virtually all of them except the 
last few. In the last week or two there have been



i+62

(R-1234)
others arrested, but we didnft get those.
BY JUDGE RIVES; We know there are going to be many 
objections to these documents, and to save time the 
Court is going to reserve the rulings on all the objec­
tions, You may dictate all the objections you see fit 
to the reporter and the reporter can take his time in 
marking these documents as exhibits in the order they 
come in, and the Court will take the objections with the 
case and reserve rulings on admissibility of each and 
every one of the documents. I say that to save time, 
and which defendant is going to start off on this case?
I want one of the defendants to be ready to start off 
in the morning. You can dictate your objections. The 
Court doesn’t have to be present. Or if you want to, 
dictate them later and the Court will carry the rulings 
with the case.
BY MR. J. WILL YOUNG: We will be ready.
BY MR. STOCKDALE: So far as Cicero Carr is concerned, 
all we will do is ask a motion to dismiss the petition.

BY JUDGE RIVES: Get ready with such motions you 
have in the morning, and one of the defendants be ready 
for introduction of witnesses so we may proceed with as 
much dispatch as possible.
BY MR. CLARK: The Court is not ordering us to do that 
now, but to decide before in the morning? Because we 
would like a conference among the defendants.
BY JUDGE RIVES: I just want the defendants to be pre-



463
(R-1234)

pared so we can dispatch as much as possible tomorrow.
(R-1235)Anything further?

BY MRS, MOTLEY : I want to point out tothe Court, in 
the interest of saving time, that in the marking of 
these documents there are 288 of them and we have bound 
them together in accordance with the following pattern: 
All of those arrested in the Illinois Central are bound 
together; all those arrested in the Greyhound are bound 
together; all those arrested in Trailways and all those 
arrested in the airport; and we thought that would save 
time, and when they are marked, they can be marked as 
one volume, so we hope they will keep them that way.
BY THE COURT: If there are four volumes, they can be 
marked as four exhibits, and each consecutive one by 
number. Do you have any objection to the attorneys for 
the defendants assigning any and all objections they 
might see fit and the Court carry the objections with 
the case?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: We have no objection. I just want 
to point out again that each one has the certificate of 
the court.
BY JUDGE RIVES: We will let you make your objections 
in open court in the morning on each and all of these. 
BY MR. SHARDS: May we address our objection to each 
one of these items if we care to?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes.



464
(R-1255)

BY MR. SHANDS: Rather than having all of them thrown 
at us together, because they must deal solely and alone 
with separate Individuals, and we know there may be some 

(R-12J6)
objections to some that may not go to others.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes, you may. The Court will ask you 
to do it in a way for reasonable dispatch of the case.
BY MR. O'MARA: May I call the Court’s attention to one 
thing: Earlier this afternoon I requestedthe Court to 
let me ask the witness Johnny Frazier several questions. 
I would prefer to do It today, but if the Court wants 
to do it —
BY THE COURT: Would it take very long?
BY MR, O ’MARA: I don’t think five minutes.
BY JUDGE RIVES: All right.

JOHNNY FRAZIER, recalled as a witness for further cross exa­
mination, having previously been sworn, testified as follows:

FURTHER CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. O’MARA:
Q* You are the same Johnny Frazier who testified in this 

case earlier today?
A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. Now, I want to ask you some questions to be certain that 

I clearly understood your testimony this morning. I 
understood you to say that on August 26, i960, you 
boarded a Greyhound bus in Atlanta, Georgia. Is that



465
(R-1236)

correct?
A. That’s correct, sir.
Q. I understood you to say that you traveled on that bus —  

that is, the Greyhound bus —  from Atlanta to Montgomery, 
Alabama?

(R-1237)A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. I further understood —  Did you leave Montgomery, Ala­

bama, on the same bus or change buses?
A. I left on the same bus, a Greyhound.
Q. On the same bus?
A. Only changed drivers.
Q. I understood you this morning to say that you traveled

on a Greyhound bus from Montgomery, Alabama, to Columbus, 
Mississippi. Is that correct?

A. That is correct.
Q. Pardon?
A. That is correct.
Q. I understood you this morning to say that you changed

buses in Columbus, Mississippi, and got off the Greyhound 
bus and got on a Trailways bus and traveled from Colum­
bus, Mississippi, to Winona, Mississippi, on a Trailways 
bus? Is that correct?

A. That is correct.



(R-1237)
BY MR. O ’MARA: That is all.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Any redirect?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: No, sir.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Any other cross examination?
BY MR. SHANDS: He is one of the ones I reserved my 
cross examination of,

(R-1238)
BY JUDGE RIVES: All right, (to witness:) You are 
still not excused. You will have to come back in the 
morning.

(Witness temporarily excused)

BY JUDGE RIVES: Court stands in recess until 9:30 
tomorrow morning.
(Whereupon the court was recessed until the following 
morning.)

WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 27, 1961, AT 9:50 A.M. THE HEARING 
WAS RESUMED.

BY JUDGE RIVES: I believe as we closed yesterday, the 
plaintiff had offered the transcript of a number of 
trials and then announced they would probably rest when 
those were introduced.
BY MR. OtMARA: The Court will recall the witness Vera 
Pigee was on the stand the the Court informed me I 
could cross examine her later, and I would like to do 
that before the plaintiff actually rests.



467
(R-1238)

BY JUDGE RIVES: We would like all of the plaintiffs 
witnesses to be cross examined if that is possible 
before the plaintiff rests. Are you prepared to cross 
examine those you had?
BY MR. SHARDS: As I understand the ruling of the Court 
and I know this has been over, but I want no misunder­
standing or lack of comprehension on my part if I have 

(R-1239)
not comprehended correctly. I reserved for cross examl 
nation James Frazier, Wilma Jones and Vera Pigee and 
Helen O'Neal, and I understand the ruling of the Court 
that evidence is not admitted as against Mr. Patterson, 
defendant in this case, who is the Attorney General of 
the State of Mississippi, and has been excluded to him. 
Is that correct?
BY JUDGE RIVES: That is my recollection.
BY MR. SHANDS: That is my understanding of the ruling 
of the Court. In view of that, I will not —  the 
Attorney General will not cross examine either of those 
four persons,
BY JUDGE RIVES: All right.
BY MR. WATKINS: I would assume we would now make the 
objection to the transcripts offered from the state 
court at this point?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Let us get through the witnesses first, 
if we may. If you will call your witnesses for cross 
examination, Mr. 0 fMara,



468
(R-1239)
VERA PIGEE, recalled as a witness and having previously been
sworn, testified as follows:

CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. O ’MARA:
Q. Your name is Vera Pigee?
A, Yes.
Q. You testified yesterday in this case?
A. Beg Pardon?
(R-1240)
Q. You testified yesterday in this case?
A. Yes.
Q. I believe yesterday your testimony dealt with an occur­

rence which you said took place in Clarksdale, Missis­
sippi, in April or May, 1959? Is that correct?

A, Right.
Q. Do you know whether the bus that you boarded in Clarks­

dale was a through bus or one that originated in the 
City of Clarksdale?

A. I’m not sure, but I think this bus was loaded --
0* —  Do you understand what I mean?
A- Yes, I understand what you mean. I think the bus was 

loaded in Greenwood, if I’m not mistaken. That’s what 
the superintendent told me, that this man ran from Green­
wood to Memphis.

^  4hen it was a through bus insofar as the town of Clarks­
dale is concerned?

4. Yes.



469
(R-1240)
Q. And. your ticket was from Clarksdale to Memphis?
A. That is true.
Q, At the time that you went up to the bus, to the door of 

the bus, for the purpose of getting on the bus, was the 
door opened or closed?

A. The door was open.
Q. Was the bus driver at the door at the time you first went 

up to it?
A. Yes, he was.
(R-1241)Q. Were there any other passengers already on the bus?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know approximately how many?
A. No.
Q. I want to ask you if the porter who works tat the bus

station you it would be necessary for all of the through 
passengers to get on the bus before any passengers 
originating in Clarksdale could get on the bus?

A. If the porter told me that?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. Did the bus driver tell you that or make a similar state­

ment to you?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Where was the bus driver when you first came up to the 

bus?
A. When X came to the bus he was standing at the door.



A?0
(R-1241)
Q,. -And you say the door was open at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he let any passengers board the bus before you?
A. When the bus was called out, I was the first one to get 

to the door. Ho, he did not. When I got to the bus he 
had not loaded anybody in Clarksdale, not to my know­
ledge. When the bus was called, I came out of the 
waiting room to the door of the bus.

Q. You say when the bus was first called, you were the first 
one to get to the door?

A. Yes.
(R-12^2 )
0,. Had any passengers gotten on the bus before you got to 

the door?
A. It was some people already on. I don’t know if they

came in there on the bus or not. Maybe they didn’t get 
off, —  I ’m not sure of that.

Q. I will ask you if the bus driver made this or a similar 
statement to you on that occasion: that it would be 
necessary for you to stand aside and let him load his 
through passengers before he loaded any passengers 
originating in Clarksdale?

A. Wo, he didn’t. The direct words he said to me was, when 
I walked up to the door and the people came up behind 
me, he told me to get out of the way.

Q* And he did not make the statement to you —
A- No, he did not.



471
(R-1242)
Q. —  that I just made to you or a similar statement?

You did get on the bus?
A. Yes.
Q. And rode on to Memphis?
A. I  d id .

Q, Did the bus driver make any other statements to you be­
fore you got on the bus?

A. Yes. When he told me to get out of the way, I refused to 
move. He loaded four passengers, two Negroes and two 
whites. Then he closed the door of the bus and got 
right up in my face and told me I didn!t purchase a 
ticket to boss the damn bus, and I told him no, I 
purchased a ticket to ride and if I had been across 

(R-1243)the street, he wouldnft have known I wanted to go.
Q. Now, at the time you were talking to him when you first 

got up to the bus door, you say the door was open?
A. Yes.
Q.. You were standing right in front of the door?
A. Yes.
*4. Ready to get on?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you at any time move away from the door?
A. No.
Q- How soon was it that the other three or four passengers 

that were back of you were able to get on the bus if 
you never moved from the door and were right in front of



472
(R-1243)

it?
A. He stood back and they squeezed by. Of course, I wasn't 

right up on the steps; I was standing just a little 
distance from the door and there was a little space 
between he and I and they were able to squeeze through.

Q. Did he close the door before you got on it?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did he open it for you to get on?
A. Yes, he opened it later just a little bit, about that 

bit (indicating).
Q. You say about that much? (indicating)
A. Yes.
Q. How wide is that?
A. Hot very wide. Anyway, I succeeded in —
Q. You measured it. Would you say that is six inches?
A. I didn't get through that little hole, I opened it a 

little bigger myself.
(R-1244)
Q. He opened it about six inches for you to get on?
A. That is right.
Q. And you got on the bus through the six inch space?
A. Ho.
Q. How did you get on the bus?
A. I took my hand and opened the door open big enough for 

me to get on.
Q* Pardon.

I took my hand and opened it big enough for me to get on.



473
(R-1244)

I couldn't get through that little hole.
Q. You opened it yourself?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Where was the driver at that time?
A. Standing at the door after he jerked the ticket out of 

toy hand.
Q,. Was he on the ground or inside the bus?
A. He was on the ground where he loads the passengers,

BY MR. O'MARA: I believe that is all.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Any fur tier redirect?
BY MR. BELL: I don't think so, Your Honor.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You may come down and be excused.
Any other witnesses to be cross examined?
BY MR, O'MARA: I don't, Your Honor.
BY MR. BELL: Do we understand the witnesses that we 
had to return today will not be needed any longer?
BY JUDGE RIVES: They may be excused.

(R-1245)
BY MR. BELL: In addition, we had subpoenaed two addi­
tional witnesses, who we will not have to use, Mr.
Ward and Mr. Hewlett.
BY JUDGE RIVES: I believe then we are down to the 
point where you are offering the transcript of the 
trial of these two hundred-odd people.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: That is right.
BY MR. SHARDS: May I make objection?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes, state the ground of your objection.



474
(R-1245)

BY MR, Q ’MARA: May I call the Court’s attention to 
this: I realize counsel has excused the witnesses he 
has listed. I notice some of them sitting in the 
courtroom, and the rule has been invoked. If by chance 
he should change his mind and want to put those wit­
nesses on the stand later, I will object to their so 
testifying if they remain in the courtroom.
BY JUDGE RIVES: The witnesses you may wish to put on 
the stand should go out of the courtroom.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: I don’t anticipate we will need these 
people again.
BY JUDGE RH/ES: The Court is not going to permit you 
to put any on the stand that remain in the Court.
BY MR. CERNE: Mr. Pickle is still in attendance as a 
witness under subpoena, and if no one is going to use 
him, I ’d like him to be excused.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: That is all right. He has already 
testified.

(R-1246)
BY JUDGE RIVES: He may be excused.
BY MR. WATKINS: Come the defendants, the City of Jack- 
son, its Mayor, Commissioners and Chief of Police, and 
object to the Introduction into evidence of the approxi­
mately 287 affidavits and 287 judgments offered in evi­
dence by the plaintiffs for reasons which include the 
following:

(l) None of said affidavits or judgments is predi-



475
(R-1246)

cated on any of the segregation statutes or the City 
ordinance, the constitutionality of which are challenged 
by the amended complaint filed herein.

(2) None of the affidavits or judgments discloses 
that it involves any member of the Negro race or any 
member of the class which the plaintiffs claim to repre­
sent in this action.

(3) None of the affidavits or judgments or any cer­
tificate thereon discloses the final disposition of the 
matter purported to be covered thereby or whether the 
defendant has exercised his right to appeal therefrom to 
the County Court of the First Judicial District of Hinds 
County, Mississippi.

(4) None of said affidavits or judgments or any 
certificate thereon purports to show the final disposi­
tion of this charge against the defendant.

(5) That each of said affidavits and judgments in­
volves factual matters which are not common to all 
affidavits and judgments and which are not within the

(R-1247)jurisdiction of this three-judge Court.
(6) That the offer of each of said affidavits and 

judgments constitutes an attempt on the part of the 
plaintiffs to make a collateral attack on the validity 
of a criminal action tried in the Courts of the State 
of Mississippi and over which this Court has no juris­
diction.



(r-1247)
(7) None of said affidavits or judgments Is material, 

relevant or competent to any issue involved in this 
action.
BI MR. CLARK: As to the second, third, fourth, sixth 
and seventh grounds of the motion of the City of Jack- 
son, we would like the record to show that the Attorney 
General also objects on those same specific grounds, 
with the additional grounds that if any final disposi­
tion of these cases or further action In these cases was 
in the nature of an appeal to the County Court of Hinds 
County, Mississippi, then that in and of itself renders 
the judgments of the justice of the peace court —  city 
magistrates court —  of the City of Jackson, Mississip­
pi, a nullity, and for that reason, we object to the 
introduction of each and every one of these judgments 
so offered.
BY JUDGE CLAYTON: That last ground is based, I assume, 
on the situation under the law wherein an appeal is 
a trial de novo?
BY MR. CLARK: Yes, and has the effect under the law 
and decisions of the State of Mississippi of completely 

(R-1248)
voiding and wiping out the existence of a judgment of 
a lower court.
BY MR. O'MARA: I object likewise for those reasons 
assigned and, further, for the reason that it has not 
been shown that either the Greyhound Corporation or the



^77
(r-1248)

Continental Southern had any of these parties arrested 
or permitted their arrest or had any part or played 
any part in the arrests of these individuals or in the 
trial of the cases in the municipal court of the City 
of Jackson.
BY MR. CERHE: I believe as to the Illinois Central, 
these are immaterial to the charges against us in the 
case.
BY MR. J. WILL YOUNG-: On behalf of Jackson City Lines, 
on the assurance of counsel for plaintiffs that no one 
involved in Jackson City Lines is involved in those 
affidavits, we have no objections.
BY JUDGE RIVES: I presume the other members of the 
Court have not seen the affidavits and papers at all.
Do they sufficiently identify these cases as people 
arrested in the waiting rooms?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Yes, sir.
BY MR. CLARK: Let me amplify ray objection in view of 
the Court's observation. These papers are separated 
into three stacks, and there is a printed pen and ink 
notation on a cover sheet on the front of each stack 
of papers. There is no official certificate as to 
what caused that writing to be placed on the cover 

(R-1249)
sheets of each of the stacks, and that, we believe, 
will be the only direct evidence that the Court finds 
where these incidents originated or how they came to



478
(R-1249)

be separated Into groups or whom they relate to other 
than the names of the parties, and we don’t think the 
cover sheet in any event is admissible, and we object 
to the cover sheet separately from our objection to the 
other papers.
BY JUDGE CLAYTON: %  understanding is they were separa­
ted in that fashion as a matter of convenience and not 
as a matter of evidence.
BY MRS., MOTLEY: That is right, and Mr. Bell will make 
out statements with respect to those, and he will indi­
cate that each affidavit does name the terminal in 
which the person was involved.
BY MR. BELL: That is correct, Your Honor. Each of the 
five sets represents arrests made under the two statutes 
set forth in the complaint, 2085.5 and 2089.5, which we 
allege were arrests being made in order to maintain 
the segregated patterns in the terminals.
BY JUDGE RXVES: I understand the theory you are offer­
ing them under.
BY MR. BELL: As to the cover sheets, this was a matter 
of convenience in identification. Let me read a typi­
cal one. (reading) "ILLINOIS CENTRAL RAILROAD STATION 
—  Attached Hereto Are the Judgment Records of Ninety- 
One Persons Who in the Police Court of Jackson, Missis­
sippi, Between the Dates of May 30, 1961 and July 31, 
1961 were Pound Guilty of Violating Section 2087.5 of



^79
(R-1250)

the Mississippi Code while in or near the Illinois Cen­
tral Railroad Station."
BY JUDGE RIVES: I understand that is placed on there 
by counsel and that is not evidence.
BY MR. BELL: That is right, but the copy of the general 
affidavit —  and I imagine the first one Is typical of 
all of them —  reads "J. L. Ray swears that affidavit 
made against James T. Davis, Jr. on or about May 30 
in the corporate City of Jackson" and so forth. Then 
it spells out, "in or around the Illinois Central Rail­
road station or depot in Jackson, Hinds County, Missis­
sippi, pOO West Capitol Street, a place of business 
engaged In selling members of the public in violation 
of Section 2087.5* Miss. Code of 19^2, Annotated, as 
amended, did then and there fail and refuse to disburse 
and move on upon orders to do so by affiant, a law 
enforcement officer of the City of Jackson, Mississippi, 
a municipality, contrary to the laws and ordinances in 
such cases made and provided and against the peace and 
dignity of the State of Mississippi." Then the signa­
ture of affiant, J. L. Ray, and attached thereto is the 
certificate signed by James L. Spencer indicating "do 
hereby certify that the annexed General Affidavit is a 
true copy of the original record in this case, which 
record is in my custody," as required by the Federal 
Rules, and each of those are similar.
BY MR. CLARK: I have this observation to make: The



480
(R-1250)

judgment is on a separate sheet of paper and the 
(R-1251)

certificate of the judgment does not purport to tie the 
two in together! the judgment does show that a particu­
lar named individual was convicted by this judgment of 
a particular violation of a statute, but the judgment 
does not locate where that man was convicted of that 
violation or the date — .
BY JUDGE RIVES: The name is in the affidavit.
BY MR. CLARK: Yes, sir, but that is the only way, and 
that inference is the only way to tie the two together, 
and we make the objection that that is not the reason 
for counsel to add his own observations or conclusions 
of what the record contains. The records, if admissible 
at all, are certainly the best evidence, and we object 
to these cover sheets.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Does the affidavit bear a case number? 
BY MR. CLARK: Does the affidavit bear a case number?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes, the judgment and the affidavit.
BY MR. CLARK: Yes, the affidavit has a number at the 
top, and all of these numbers purport to be 558-1 on 
the group that I have in my hand. I don’t see that the 
judgment has any number at all, and I don’t see any 
way to relate them other than by the name of the man 
in the affidavit was convicted of some offense.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: In addition, the section of the 
Mississippi Code under which he was arrested under the



481
(R-1251)

affidavit and under which he was convicted arethe same, 
which makes it a little more than a coincidence.
BY JUDGE CLAYTON: Pass one of those up to the Court. 

(R-1252)
(Same are handed to the Court.)

BY MB, CLARK: The Court understands we in no wise, by 
making the separate objection to the cover sheets and 
to the introduction of these records in bulk, do not 
intend to depart from the basic objection thatthese 
are not admissible in evidence, because they are not 
shown to be the final and complete disposition of the 
cases.
BY JUDGE RIVES: The cover sheet is not offered in 
evidence, but simply for counsel’s convenience? Am I 
not correct?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: That is right.
BY JUDGE RIVES: The Court is going totake the ruling 
with the case, one of the particular purposes, so that 
we may have a complete record in the case, and so that 
if the defendants wish to introduce any rebuttal, they 
may do so. The Court will carry the ruling on each of 
those matters with the case.
BY MR. CLARK: As to the remarks of counsel? In other 
words, would that not be appropriate to the court re­
porter perhaps, but not from counsel as to his deduction^ 
the fact that these all are in some stations?
BY THE COURT: There was a statement that was simply



(R-1252)
attached as counsel*s separation but was not offered 
In evidence.
BY MR. CLARK: This statement is not offered in evi­
dence?
BY JUDGE RXVES: The cover is not offered in evidence. 
BY MR. CLARK: ¥111 they be removed?

(R-1253)
BY JUDGE RIVES: No, sir. Leave it on there.
Does the Plaintiff rest?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Yes, Your Honor.

(p l a i n t i f f r e s t s )
(Same were received and marked as Plaintiffs1 Exhibits Nos. 
32, 33> 32J-> and 35, respectively. These exhibits are not 
copied here because upon order of the Court all original ex­
hibits are sent up with the mimeographed record,)

BY MR. WATKINS: Now come the defendants, the City of 
Jackson, its Mayor, Commissioners and Chief of Police, 
by its attorneys, at the conclusion of the evidence 
offered by the plaintiffs herein and respectfully move 
the Court to dismiss this action as to said defendants, 
and each of them, and to enter judgment and decree in 
favor of said defendants, and each of them, and in 
support thereof would show unto the Court the following:

(l) The amended complaint should be dismissed as to 
said defendants, and each of them, for the reason that 
the plaintiffs* evidence affirmatively discloses that



483
(R-1253)

this is not a proper class action under Rule 23 in that 
a class action cannot he maintained where the interests 
of the plaintiffs are antagonistic to and not wholly 
compatible with the interests of those whom they purport 
to represent, and in that it affirmatively appears from 
the evidence that the plaintiffs do not fairly represent 
the class which they purport to represent.

(2) It affirmatively appears from the evidence 
offered by the plaintiffs that none of them has been

(R-1254)
personally injured but that each of them purports to 
appear as a representative for others alleged to have 
been injured.

(3) The City of Jackson, as a municipal corporation, 
is not subject to liability in this action.

(4) It affirmatively appears from the evidence 
offered by the plaintiffs thatthey are not entitled to 
an injunction in equity as against said defendants, or 
any of them, which is the only relief which plaintiffs 
seek.

(5) It affirmatively appears from the evidence 
offered that this is not a controversy which arises 
under the Constitution, laws or treaties of the United 
States.

(6) The evidence does not disclose that said defen­
dants, or any of them, are enforcing the ordinance or 
any of the statutes, the constitutionality of which



484
(R-1254)

are challenged by the amended complaint.
(7) It affirmatively appears from the evidence 

offered by the plaintiffs that the gist of the contro­
versy is factual involving alleged discrimination en­
tirely Independent of and separate from the ordinance 
and statutes, the constitutionality of which are attack' 
ed by the amended complaint, and said issues are not, 
therefore, within the jurisdiction of this three-judge 
court.

(8) It affirmatively appears from the evidence 
offered by the plaintiffs that this Court does not have 
jurisdiction over said defendants or the subject matter 
of this action.

The evidence offered by the plaintiffs is not 
sufficient to support a claim against said defendants 
upon which relief can be granted.

(10) Neither Section 2087.5 nor Section 2087.7 nor 
Section 2089.5 has been construed by the Supreme Court 
of Mississippi, and this Court should refrain from de­
termining any issue raised by the amended complaint in­
volving said sections until such issues have been pre­
sented to and considered by the Supreme Court of 
Mississippi for the reason that said issues raise con­
troversies Involving unsettled questions of State law 
which should first be decided in the tribunals of the 
State of Mississippi.

(B-1255



485
(R-1255)

(ll) Neither Section 2351.5 nor Section 2351.7 nor 
Section 7786-01 nor Section 7787*5 has teen construed 
by the Supreme Court of Mississippi, and this Court 
should refrain from determining any issue raised by the 
amended complaint involving said sections until such 
issues have been presented to and considered by the 
Supreme Court of Mississippi for the reason that said 
issues raise controversies involving unsettled questions 
of State law which should first be decided in the tri­
bunals of the State of Mississippi.

This is in written form, and with the Court*s per­
mission, I would like to file it as such, and I have 
served opposing counsel with copies.

(R-1256)
BY JUDGE RIVES: Very well. Let all motions come in 
at this time.
BY MR. PHILLIPS: On behalf of Jackson Municipal Airport 
Authority, we would like at this time to renew our 
motion previously made to dismiss the complaint as to 
this defendant, and to point out to the Court the 
following additional grounds in support of our motion 
to dismiss:

That the plaintiff has introduced no evidence whatso­
ever as to the Jackson Municipal Airport Authority or 
as to any connection this defendant may have with any 
of the statutes, ordinances, policies or practices com­
plained of in this case. There is no evidence in this



486
(R-1256)

case that the Jackson Municipal Airport Authority exer­
cises any police powers or has any connection whatsoever 
with any of the arrests that were made at the Jackson 
Airport terminal. We point out to the Court also 
that as to the evidence introduced regarding the airport 
most of it was prior to February, i960, when the Airport 
Authority was created.

Captain Turner testified there are signs — .
BY JUDGE RIVES: Just state the grounds of the motion 
without arguing it. The motion is supposed to be in 
writing.
BY MR, PHILLIPS: We do have a motion to dismiss, which 
was previously filed, and which was carried forward 
and which I am calling up, and I am assigning these 
additional grounds:

(R-1257)There is no evidence in this case that the Jackson 
Airport Authority owns the premises on which are located 
the airport terminal. We therefore submit that those 
additional grounds further support our motion to dis­
miss the complaint as to this defendant.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes, sir. Do we have another motion?
BY MR. GERWE: I have prepared and submit herewith to 
the Court for its consideration a motion of defendant, 
Illinois Central Railroad Company, for judgment at the 
close of all evidence offered on behalf of the plain­
tiffs, which reads:



487
(R-1257)

Now comes the Illinois Central Railroad Company, a 
corporation, one of the defendants herein, by Wence F. 
Cerne, its attorney, at the close of all the evidence 
herein on behalf of the plaintiffs and respectfully 
moves this Honorable Court for entry of judgment in favor 
of the Illinois Central Railroad Company, a corporation. 
In support hereof, this defendant shows unto the Court 
that the evidence offered and received herein on behalf 
of the plaintiffs, fails to establish the right of 
plaintiffs to the injunctive relief requested against 
the Illinois Central Railroad Company.
BY MR, O ’MARA: I do not have a written motion. May I 
dictate one on behalf of my two clients?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes, and it will be received as if it 
were a written motion,
BY MR, OMIARA: Now comes the defendant, Greyhound 
Corporation, after plaintiff has rested its case, and 

(R-1258)
respectfully moves this Court to dismiss this suit 
against it and enter a judgment in its favor and assigns 
the following reasons:

(1) The testimony wholly fails to show the plaintiffs 
are entitled to any relief prayed for as against this 
defendant.

(2) Plaintiffs have wholly failed to meet the burden 
of proof in this case insofar as this defendant is con­
cerned in making out a case against this defendant which



488
(R-1258)

would entitle plaintiffs to any relief prayed for 
against this defendant.

(3) The evidence wholly fails to show that this de­
fendant has violated any rights of plaintiffs or any 
members of their alleged class.

And, if I have the understanding that the identical 
motion is made on behalf of the Continental Southern 
Lines without repeating it — ?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes, that may be understood.
BY MR. STOCICDALE: In behalf of defendant Cicero Carr 
we renew the motion to exclude the evidence of the 
witness Evers, on which the Court reserved its ruling. 
The Court will recall that was the witness who testi­
fied to an incident that occurred three years and five 
months ago.

In addition thereto, we move that the petition, or 
bill of complaint, be dismissed and judgment entered 
for defendant Carr on the grounds that the plaintiffs 
have wholly failed to meet the burden of proof required 

(R-1259)
upon which the issuance of a writ of injunction against 
this defendant could issue;
Further, upon the ground that there has been no proof 

as to the operation of a cafe in connection with ordi­
nances or statutes that have been challenged under this 
bill of complaint; that to the contrary it has been 
affirmatively shorn that the cafe was operated by Mr.



489
(R-1259)

Carr In accordance with his own personal desires.
BY J. WILL YOUNG: Comes Jackson City Lines, a corpora­
tion, one of the defendants herein, by its attorney,
J. Will Young, at the close of all evidence by the 
plaintiff and respectfully moves the Court for an 
entry of judgment in favor of Jackson City Lines, a 
corporation.

In support hereof, this defendant shows unto the 
Court that the evidence offered and received herein on 
behalf of the plaintiffs shows only that Jackson City 
Lines has complied with the statutes under which it is 
required to operate by placing the signs in exact con­
formity to the laws of the State of Mississippi, and 
that they have advised all passengers getting on the 
buses and seating in violation of the statutes of the 
State of Mississippi that those signs exist, that the 
law exists, and further advising and operating under 
the Tamiami Case that they would stop the buses and 
fail to operate them if they did not comply with the 
existing Mississippi law,
EY MR. CLARK: For the purposes of the record, the

(R-1260)
Attorney General would like the privilege of dictating 
a motion at this time into the reoord:

Comes Joe T. Patterson, Attorney General of the State 
of Mississippi, one of the defendants in this cause, 
and moves the Court to exclude the evidence offered



490
(R-1260)

by the plaintiff and direct a verdict for this defendant, 
and assigns to this Court on this motion the following 
grounds:

(1) The Attorney General adopts the following grounds 
assigned by the City of Jackson, Mississippi: 1., 2.,
4., 5«> 6., 8., 9., and 11. of said grounds.

(2) The only testimony in this case connecting the 
Attorney General with this case is his own testimony 
that he stands ready to perform his duty under the law. 
This is not sufficient to warrant the Court in proceed­
ing further against the Attorney General.

(5) The plaintiffs in this cause have completely 
failed to make out the statutory elements of an action 
under 42 USCA 1983, in that they have proved no injury 
whatsoever for which redress could lie to any of the 
plaintiffs in this cause and have proved the existence 
of no proper class as alleged or as could be properly 
proven in this action,

(4) This United States District Court should not 
anticipate constitutional questions, and the issuance of 
an injunction in this case would constitute such action.

(5) The plaintiffs cannot complain of any injury 
that may have occurred to any other person. They must

(R-1261)
prove an injury to themselves or to the class that they 
properly prove the right to represent here;

(6) The plaintiffs in this cause come before this



491
(R-126 1)

court of equity with unclean hands;
(7) There is here action which, if entertained by 

this Court, would violate Article 4, Section 4, and the 
Tenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States 
of America.
BY JUDGE RIVES; Any other motions? The Court is going 
to reserve decision on each of the motions and proceed 
with the evidence for each of the defendants.
BY MR. STOCKDALE: On behalf of the defendant Carr, he 
rests. Now, I might ask the Court if I might be excused 
further attendance at this trial.
BY JUDGE RIVES; Yes, you may be excused.

(DEFENDANT CARR RESTS)
BY MR. CLARK; I believe the Attorney General will 
probably make the first introduction or offer of evi­
dence, and I wonder if at this time we might have a 
brief recess to confer with the witnesses.
BY JUDGE RIVES; The plaintiff gave you advance notice 
last night, and you should be ready; however, we will 
take a 15 minute recess.
(Whereupon the Court was recessed 15 minutes.

After Recess
BY MR. CLARK: We would like to call Ell M. Cowling.
BY MR. PHILLIPS: While the witness is being called, I

(R-1282)
would like to announce on behalf of the Jackson Munici­
pal Airport Authority that we rest, and since we will not



492
(R-1282)

be offering testimony, I wonder if I might have permis­
sion of the Court to be excused.

(DEFENDANT JACKSON MUNICIPAL AIRPORT AUTHORITY 
RESTS)

BY MR. CERNE: I plan on behalf of Illinois Central to 
rest without offering testimony. May I likewise be 
excused from attendance?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes, sir.

(DEPENDANT ILLINOIS CENTRAL RAILROAD RESTS)
BY JUDGE RIVES: Before we proceed with the examination 
of the witness, it might save time to call all of the 
witnesses whom you have to be called and let them be 
sworn at one time.

(All defendants1 witnesses were sworn.)
BY JUDGE RXVES: The witnesses understand the rule has 
been invoked, and they will not tdiscuss the testimony 
they will give or testimony they have given in the pre­
sence of other witnesses. You may discuss it with your 
lawyers, but when discussing it with your lawyers, it 
will not be in the presence of other witnesses.

MR. ELL M. COWLING, called as a witness and having been duly 
sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. CLARK:
Q- You are Mr. ELI M. Cowling?
A. Thatls correct. I am.



493
(R-1263)
Q. Mr. Cowling, what position do you hold? What is your job?
A. I Tm an investigator with the State of Alabama, Department 

of Public Safety, Investigating and Identification Divi­
sion.

Q. Do you hold a rank in that service?
A. 1 do.
Q. What is that rank?
A. Corporal.
Q. Mr. Cowling, are you involved in any way with the people 

who came into the State of Alabama via public transpor­
tation on or about the 14th day of May, 1961, at which 
time there was an incident of violence or breach of the 
peace in the State of Alabama?

A. I was.

BY MRS. Motley: May it please the Court, we are going 
to object to any testimony as to violence or anything 
else which occurred in the State of Alabama on the 
ground it is not material or relevant to the issues in 
this case, which are whether there is state enforced 
racial segregation in the State of Mississippi.
BY JUDGE RIVES: There has been no question asked yet 
to which there is an objection. You might state gene­
rally the relevancy of the testimony you propose to 
introduce.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: May I add one other ground, that in 
any event, violence, as Your Honor knows, is no excuse



494
(R-1264)

for maintaining segregation, and therefore all testi­
mony as to violence, even in the State of Mississippi, 
would not be material or relevant to the constitutional 
issues in this case.
BY1 MR. CLARK: We take an opposite stand to counsel, 
inasmuch as all of the actions of the officials, the law 
enforcement officials of the State of Mississippi which 
form any basis for plaintiffs’ complaint in this cause 
are shown by the evidence to have been based solely and 
alone on the necessity of the preservation of the peace 
in this state, and entirely unrelated to the question 
that has been injected into these statutes and into the 
case here of state enforced or state maintained separa­
tion of the races, or other actions which might result 
in deprivation of claimed constitutional rights. By 
this witness and other witnesses, we propose to prove to 
this Court that in the sister state of Alabama immedi­
ately prior to the time that the first of the incidents 
of provocation occurred in the State of Mississippi 
that people on similar missions, and in some instances 
the same people, came into the State of Alabama under 
the same terms and conditions and the same circumstances 
and provoked acts of violence, bloodshed, in the State 
of Alabama, and that these facts were known to the law 
enforcement officials in the City of Jackson and through^ 
out the State of Mississippi before these same people 
continued their journey into the State of Mississippi,



^95
(R-1264)

and we think it relevant, very relevant, to show and 
(R-1265)

support the motives that these officials have testi­
fied to this Court that they had in taking the actions 
that they did take here that are complained of by the 
plaintiffs.
BY MR. WATKINS: May I make an objection? For the 
City of Jackson and its officials, I have tried consis­
tently to take the position that this case does not 
involve and should not involve the so-called Freedom 
Riders. The Court has taken my position and objections 
along with the case. I don’t know how the Court is going 
to ultimately rule on those motions and objections, 
but to be consistent, we object to the line of testimony 
on the ground that the Freedom Riders are no part of 
this case, not properly being made a party of this 
case, and on that theory we don't think the testimony 
in Alabama is competent.
BY JUDGE RTVES: I believe we will carry that objection 
and ruling along with the case, and by offering testi­
mony you will not waive your objection. We are asking 
for a complete record to be made of the case. The 
Court does not want the issues in this case broadened 
out sufficiently to try the Alabama incidents, and we 
would anticipate counsel will only undertake to show 
there has been disorders in the sister state or some 
other state. We reserve the ruling on that. You may



496
(R-1265)

go that far. If you get too far, going into the de­
tails of it, we may have to rule differently, because 
we don't want to prolong the trial by trying the

(R-1265-A)
Alabama case also.
BY MR. CLARK: We have no intention of trying any Ala­
bama lawsuits. We do want to show what did happen there 
and the fact it was known in Mississippi. That is the 
extent of the proof.
BY JUDGE RIVES: We will reserve the ruling.

(Mi?. Clark continues:)
Q. Mr. Cowling, the question to you, sir, recurs on whether 

or not you were personally familiar with any incidents 
or breaches of the peace of the laws of the State of 
Alabama which occurred on or about May 14th in connec­
tion with any persons who rode public transportation 
facilities into the State of Alabama. Were you personal­
ly familiar with any such incidents?

A. I was.
Q« When did you first become associated with these incidents 

or with this group of people that came into the State 
of Alabama, and how did that association occur?

BY JUDGE RIVES: The only thing that I take is relevant 
is what information came over to the Mississippi offi­
cers.
BY MR. CLARK: Your Honor, I would like to ask the Court



497
(R-1265-A)

to give me a little more ground than that. I would 
like to show what the information was and that it did 
come. Am I understanding Your Honors correctly?

(R-1266)
BY JUDGE RITES: All right. Go ahead.
BY MR. CLARK: I'm asking him to testify what he per­
sonally observed of these people coming into the State 
of Alabama.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Go ahead.

A. I was on the May 14, 1961, Mother's Day Greyhound bus 
that was burned in Anniston.

Q. Corporal, were you there in an official capacity?
A. I was.
Q. What was the purpose of your being there?
A. My purpose for being there was to observe, to see and 

learn any facts about what this group planned to do 
when they entered Alabama.

Q. Had you been told in advance or did you know from news 
media or other publications, public publications in 
the State of Alabama, that they were planning to enter 
the State before they came?

A. I did.
Q. Where did you observe any breach of the peace or any

public disorders inside the State of Alabama with regard 
to this group and what did that disturbance consist of? 

A. I observed disorder that occurred at the bus terminal.
Q* In what town?



498
(r -1266)
A. Anniston, Alabama,
Q. Tell us, please, what you saw in brief detail at that

time in the Anniston, Alabama, terminal.
(R-1267)A. I was a paid passenger on that bus traveling as the

other riders. We pulled into the terminal. Before we 
got ther in front of it there was cars on both sides 
of the street people standing out on the sidewalk in 
and around the cars. We pulled into the alley way be­
hind the bus station and pulled into where the bus stops. 
The people on both sides of the bus there, they began 
to shout abuses at the passengers and occupants of the 
bus. At that time I had come up front and took my 
position.

Q. Did any of these persons try to enter the bus?
A. They wanted to know if the riders were on the bus and 

asked them to come off. They didn't anybody leave the 
bus.

Q. Were the police officials of Anniston, Alabama, present 
at that time?

A. They were not at that time. They arrived later.
Q. Did any of the crowd of people at the station at Anniston 

enter the bus?
A. They did not get up in the bus. They came to the door. 

Might have been one or two that stepped up on the bus, 
and I told them they couldn't come any further.
Other than property damage to the bus, was there any 
physical violence to any of the occupants of the bus that



499

(R-1267)

you observed at that time?
A. There was none.
Q. Did the bus leave the Anniston station without any such 

physical violence occurring?
A. To any individuals?
Q. Yes, in your knowledge, or in the bus there with you.
(R-1268)
A. It did leave without any violence occurring to any of the 

individuals.
Q,. Did the city police department of Anniston, Alabama,

assist in any way in getting the bus away from the sta­
tion?

A. They did. They arrived and got one or two people up that 
were lying down in front of the bus. They had turned the 
- backed up near us, around the bus, where you couldn't 
see to back up. They got the crowd up and got them 
back. They didn't clear it out, got it back, got us 
out in the street, and we proceeded on toward Birmingham. 

Q. Did you leave the limits of Anniston?
A. We did.
Q- Without physical violence occurring to any occupants of 

the bus?
A. We did.

BY JUDGE RIVES: Did the passengers get off in Anniston?

A. They did not. The reason why none of them got off at 
Anniston, between Oxford, Alabama, and Anniston we met



500

(R-1268)
an oncoming bus. This bus turned. Its lights on; our 
driver pulled off; this bus pulled off. The two drivers 
got off the bus and went to the rear. In a little bit 
a man got off the other bus, came over, walked to the 
rear of the bus and came around and stepped up in front 
of the bus and asked were there any N.A.A.C.P. riders 
on this bus. No one answered him, and he said, "Well,
I just want to tell you there’s a large crowd at the 
bus terminal, or bus station, in Anniston. They are 

(R-1269)
mad, they are angry; some of them are armed, and my 
advice would be for none of you all to get off." And 
he turned and left and got back on the other bus. That 
is the first knowledge we had of any trouble.

Q, Did any passenger board the bus at the Anniston terminal?
A. One passenger, s,
Q. Inside the bus, with regard to the physical seating

arrangements and with regard to the races, were all the 
passengers of the white race or all of the colored race, 
or were they of both races?

A. They were of both races.
Q. Did you at any time attenpt to re-seat these people so 

as to separate the races from each other?
A. I did not.
Q* Did any person or official make such an attempt?
A- They did not.
Q- After the bus had left the city limits of Anniston, Ala-



501

(R-1269)
bama, what next occurred of moment, of note?

A. We came up to a railroad crossing and it was a pick-up 
truck there. It pulled on off, and as we got out of 
the city limits to where it was wide enough and straight 
enough for the driver to attempt to pass, he pulled out 
to pass. Of course, this truck was driving slow, 
holding us back, and the truck would swerve out across 
the center line as we would pull out, crowd him in the 
lane where he couldn't get by without being crowded over 
off on to the shoulder or into the ditch.

(R-1270)The driver made quite a few attempts to get around this 
truck. It directly pulled on off, and a cut-down Ford 
type vehicle, which I would classify as a hot-rod type 
that you see around these race tracks, pulled in front 
of us, and it did the same thing. We went to a point 
approximately four miles west of Anniston on Alabama 
202. Before we reached that point the driver said,
"One of my tires are going down. I'm having a flat."
And he said it was on the front, and he would have to 
stop and change it. We pulled up to a point in front 
of Forsythe's Grocery, which had a paved driveway into 
the grocery, pulled off and stopped. While we were 
going out there was a stream of cars, the approximate 
number I would not know. I observed them behind us.
Some of it was news media in the car; others were indi­
viduals. 1 don't know what capacity they were in or



502

(R-1270)
what type of people they were. And as soon as we 
stopped, I told the driver the first thing I wanted him 
to do was get off the bus and get my luggage. And at 
that time he got off and brought my luggage to me.
I opened my luggage and put my gun on.

Q. Did you do this in full view of the passengers?
A. I did. I was standing in the aisle when I did that.
Q. Did you go to the front of the bus after that?
A. I did.
Q. Did the crowd collect around the bus?
A. They did. They were hitting it with instruments, cur­

sing.
(R-1271)
Q. Did anyone cast anything into the bus, throw anything 

into the inside Of the bus?
A. We had been there a little while and somebody did throw 

something into the bus.
Q. Did that instrument or whatever it was cause smoke in­

side the bus?
A. It was some type of smoke or incendiary type instrument 

or bomb.
Q» Did it cause the inside of the bus to become stuffy and 

smoke-filled?
A. It did.

BY MRS. MOTLEY: All of this is leading the witness, 
but we would just as soon get it over with.
BY JUDGE RIVES: If you object to it as being leading,



503
(R-1271)

we sustain the objection.

Q, Did any actions of physical violence occur to any of the 
passengers, and, if so, under what circumstances?

A. None that I observed there. Now, the only thing that
bothered the passengers was they were inhaling a lot of 
smoke and they were carried to the hospital.

Q. Did you make any attempt to keep the people from outside 
the bus from boarding the bus?

A, I did. Even one newspaper photographer practically de­
manded to get on there.

(R-1272)Q. Did any of the crowd on the outside of the bus other than 
a newspaper man try to get on the inside of the bus?

A. They asked —  I was asked to let them get on there, yes.
Q. Did you refuse?
A. I did.
Q. Other than the smoke, the inhalation of smoke, what

physical violence occurred to the passengers on the bus 
at that time?

A. When they re-started after the help got there, patrol
got there, the bus began to fill up so much with smoke 
we didn’t figure we had enough there to handle the 
situation at the time. It became so intense in there 
and started burning in the back of the bus, we started 
unloading. And the first two, I believe, that got 
off ran a little wide. I told them when they got off 
not to run out into the crowd. Two of them ran a little



504
(R-1272)

wide, and the crowd rushed them and swung at them, I 
did not see any licks passed. At that time Sergeant 
O ’Flynn of the Alabama Highway Patrol was there, and 
he shot in the air and told the crowd the next ones 
that rushed he would lay them there. And the crowd 
backed off. We finished unloading the bus. We had 
two or three missing that we couldn’t account for.
We later learned they went out through windows in the 
back on the opposite side. Two white passengers and 
one colored passenger.

Q. Did you see any further incidents of physical violence 
at that scene?

(R-1273)A. I did not,
Q. Corporal, do you have any way of knowing where these 

passengers had intended to go? Did they make known 
to you the route they intended to take?

A. I learned through police channels and through news media 
that they were going to Birmingham.

Q. Was their ultimate destination Birmingham or Montgomery?
A. Montgomery eventually.
Q. Is Montgomery directly past Birmingham from Atlanta? 

Would it be logical for a person going to Montgomery 
to go to Birmingham?

A. It would not.
Q. Did you make a report of this incident to your superiors?
A* I did, that night.



505
(R-1275}
Q. Did you witness any other action of physical violence or 

breaches of the peace or physical disorder inside the 
State of Alabama at any later time?

A. I did.
Q. Hhere was that?
A. In Montgomery.
Q. Was it at the Greyhound terminal in Montgomery?
A. I saw two individuals, a white male by the name of Zwerg 

or Swerg, and a colored male by the name of Barbary, 
that met violence at or on or about the bus terminal.

Q, Did you make a report of that to your superiors?
A. My superiors were in that vicinity at the time. In fact, 

one of my superiors, Mr. Floyd Mann, the director of the 
Department of Public Safety, rescued Barbary out of the

(R-127^-)
crowd there.

BY JUDGE RIVES: When was this incident?
BY WITNESS: That was on Saturday, May 20th or 21st,
I believe. Somewhere in there.

Q. Do you know whether Harold Andrews was among those pre­
sent?

A. I do not.
Q. Do you know whether Catherine Burks was among those pre­

sent?
A. I do not.
Q. Do you know whether Wyatt T. Walker —



506
(R-127^-)
A. I know "Wyatt T. Walker. I have seen him In and around 

Montgomery. I did not see him there that day.
Q. Do you know whether or not he was arrested In connection 

with that Incident in the Montgomery terminal on that 
day?

A. On May 20th? 
qu 20th.
A. I know he was arrested. I was present at a Trailways 

terminal when he and a crowd of ministers —  I believe 
Reverend Abernathy and a few others, and some profes­
sors ■—  were arrested.

Q. Corporal, with regard to the incident that you witnessed 
on May 20th or 21st in Montgomery, what were the police 
of the City of Montgomery or any law enforcement offi­
cials of the State of Alabama doing with regard to 
attempting to keep the colored or white races separated 
from each other on a racial basis?

(R-1275)A. I did not see them trying to enforce any segregation laws.
Q* Did the passengers —  I withdraw that.
Q, Do you know of your own knowledge whether or not all of 

the breaches of the peace or acts of physical violence 
that occurred in Montgomery on that day occurred inside 
the bus station or immediately adjacent to the bus sta­
tion?

A. They did not occur on the inside of the bus station. Now, 
they probably —  I wasn't present when the violence



507
(R-1275)

happened. I saw the Individuals, observed after it all 
happened. I was at the bus station when Barbary met 
his violence, but he was attacked out in the street.

Q. You don' t know whether there were acts of violence in 
other parts of Montgomery that day?

A. I heard there was. I was not present of those.
Q, You did make a report of what you saw and heard, and I

believe you said your superiors were there? Is that 
correct?

A. That’s right.

BY MR. CLARK: That is all.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Do any other defendants wish to 
examine this witness? —  You may cross examine them.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: At this time we moveto exclude all this 
testimony on the grounds it concerns an incident which 
happened in the State of Alabama; there has been no tie- 
in with the State of Mississippi.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Reserve ruling, (to witness:) You may 
come down,

(Witness excused)

(R-1276)
R. W. GODWIN, called as a witness and having been duly sworn, 
testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION
B¥ MR. CLARK:
Q- You are Captain R. W. Godwin?



508

(R-1276)
A. Yes.
Q. Captain Godwin, what is your work or your position?
A. I am assistant to the chief in the Investigating and Iden­

tification Division of the Department of Public Safety 
in Alabama.

Q. Does Corporal ELI M. Cowling work for you in that depart­
ment?

A. Yes, he does.
Q. Did Corporal Cowling make reports to you concerning inci­

dents of violence and breaches of the peace that he 
observed in connection with bus passengers coming into 
the State of Alabama at or near the City of Anniston, 
Alabama, on the lAth day of May, 1961?

BY MRS. MOTLEY: Excuse me. We would like a running 
objection to all testimony on the issue of violence.
I donft want to keep getting up.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You may have a running objection, and 
on all of them the rulings will be carried with the case.

Q* Do you remember the question?
A. Yes.
Q. Aral the answer was yes, he did?
A. Yes.
(R-1277)
Q* Was the report disseminated over the regular police in­

formation services tothe State of Mississippi and other 
police departments?



509
R-1277)
A. Well, I would say part of it.

Was the fact that you had incidents of physical violence 
so reported?

A. Yes.
Q. Captain, did these incidents receive any public notoriety 

by way of radio, television or newspapers in the State 
of Alabama on or about the time they were happening?

A. They did.
Q. Do you have reports in your department that physical vio­

lence also occurred in the City of Birmingham, Alabama, 
some time during the middle of the month of May, 1961?

A. Yes, we had reports.
Q. Do you know of your own personal knowledge that physical 

violence occurred in the City of Montgomery on the 20th 
day of May, 1961?

A. I do.
0* Tell us, please, what you saw and observed in Montgomery 

on that occasion.
A. Well, after the bus arrived In Montgomery —
Q. Did these acts of violence relate to the people who had 

come into Montgomery as passengers on a bus?
A. Yes.
Q- Go ahead.
A. After the bus arrived there, some few minutes after the 

passengers got off the bus, there was instances of
(R-1278)

assault on persons.



510
(r-1278)
Q. Had you made any attempt to keep yourself advised of the 

fact that such a bus was coming into the City of Mont­
gomery?

A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any part or connection with the bus prior to 

the time it reached the terminal?
A. Yes, 1 came in with the bus from approximately half way 

between Birmingham and Montgomery. I met it —
Q. Were you on the bus or in a separate car?
A, I was in a car.
Q. Did you arrive at the same moment the bus did at the sta­

tion?
A. Yes, I came in with the bus.
Q. What did you notice in the way of the people collected 

around the bus station at the time that bus drove into 
the station in Montgomery on this occasion?

A. Well, I didn't see very many people there at the bus sta­
tion. There was a few people there. I noticed a few 
people on the street across from the station.

Q. Was this an abnormal situation so far as you were con­
cerned as a peace officer?

A. Wo, it didn't appear to be. I wasn't too familiar with 
the amount of traffic in the bus station there, but 
there was no large gathering of people there at that 
time.

Q. What did you do as the bus turned into the station? Did 
you follow it in or go somewhere else?



511
(R-1278)
A. No, I parked my car up the street. I had to go around 

the block and find a parking space, and I came back to 
(R-1279)the bus station.
Q. When you got back to the bus station, did you see any 

acts of physical violence?
A. Yes.
Q. Were they connected in any way with the bus passengers?
A. No, the act I saw was on a photographer there.
Q. What was the photographer doing?
A. He was making photographs,
Q. What did that consist of?
A. I say what he was doing —  when I saw him there, there 

was two men attacking him and trying to get his camera. 
Q. Did you see any acts of physical violence involving these 

persons on the bus?
A. No. I saw them after they apparently had been attacked.
Q. You saw them wounded or injured?
A. Yes.
Q* Did you see any members of the Montgomery city police 

department at the scene?
A. Yes, I saw quite a few.
Q. Who was in charge of the law enforcement activities at 

the terminal in Montgomery?
A. I would assume Commissioner Sullivan was. He was there.

1 saw him there.
Q. Who is Commissioner Sullivan? What police department or



512

(R-1279)
organization is he connected with?

A. He is Police Commissioner of the City of Montgomery.
Q. Was he there at the bus station?
A. Yes, I saw him there. I don't know exactly when he
(R-1280)

arrived.
Q. Did you see any uniformed officer of the Montgomery city 

police there?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see any members of the sheriff’s organization in 

the county in which Montgomery is located?
A. Yes.
Q. —  at the scene at the time these incidents were going on?
A. Well, I couldn’t specifically say about the sheriff’s 

officer. They were there. Whether or not they were 
there when some of these incidents occurred, I couldn’t 
say. They came there and helped move the crowd away 
from the station.

Q. What attempts did you see any officials of the Montgomery 
City Police or the sheriff’s office of that county or 
any of the men from your bureau make to separate the 
persons in the station on the basis of race or color?

A. There was none made.
Q. Was this incident at Montgomery also put on the official 

police information channels and passed to the State of 
Mississippi?

A. My information is that it was. I didn’t personally at the



513
(R-1280)

time relate it, but I have talked to some of the officers 
from Mississippi.

Q. Did those officers learn of that violence in your state?
Had they known of it?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did it receive any notoriety in the newspapers, radio or 

television?
(R-1281)
A. Yes, it did.
Q. Is that true also with regard to the breaches of the 

peace that occurred in Birmingham, Alabama?
A. Yes.

BY MR. CLARK; That is all of this witness.
BY JUDGE RIVES; Any cross examination?
BY MRS. MOTLEY; No, Your Honor, but we'd like to make 
the same motion to exclude this testimony for the same 
reason assigned to the testimony of the prior witness.
In addition, we'd like to ask the Court to take judi­
cial notice of the decision and order of U. S. District 
Judge Johnson in the case of United States against 
the Ku KLux KLan, et al, where he condemned the Mont­
gomery police for failing to take appropriate action to 
protect the people who were riding on the bus.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Do you have copies of that you can 
introduce?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: No, sir, I don't have it, but I think 
it is reported. If not, I can get copies.



514
(R-1281)

BY JUDGE RIVES: I doubt If the Court can take judicial 
notice of it. You might have to produce copies of the 
order.
BY MR. CLARK: WeTd like to see the order before it is 
introduced. We object to counsel offering the order in 
this fashion.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: I thought I had it with me, and I 
don't know if I can get a copy. 1*11 speak to the 

(R-1282)representative of the Department of Justice. He may 
have one.
EY JUDGE RIVES: (To witness:) Were any police of the 
City of Montgomery present when you first arrived?
BY WITNESS: Your Honor, I couldn't specifically say 
whether or not there was any there.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Did you see any there when you first 
got there?
BY WITNESS: When I parked the car and came back around, 
they were there.
BY JUDGE RIVES: How long was that?
BY WITNESS: Well, I would say within five or ten 
minutes.

(Witness excused)

BY MR. JOE T. PATTERSON: For the record, Mr. Glick- 
stein, of the Department of Justice, is sitting here 
conferring with counsel for Plaintiff on this case,



515
(R-1282)

which seeks to prevent the enforcement of the law in 
Mississippi.
BY JUDGE RIVES; Mr. Glickstein is from the Department 
of Justice as Amicus Curiae, and. there is nothing im­
proper in his conferring with counsel.
BY MR. GLICKSTEIN; I might say, Your Honor, that I 
will he glad to confer with any counsel.
BY MR. PATTERSON; In reply to that, I might say we 
prefer to confer with friendly counsel. Thanks for 
your offer.
BY MR. GLICKSTEIN; The Department of Justice is friend- 

(R-1283)
ly to anyone who is interested in truth and justice.

W. MARVIN STANLEY, called as a witness and having been duly 
sworn, testified as follows;

DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. CLARK;
Q. You are Mr. ¥. Marion Stanley?
A. W. Marvin Stanley.
Q. t o t  position do you hold with any law enforcement agency? 
A. ITm Assistant Chief of Police of the Montgomery Police 

Department, Montgomery, Alabama.
Q. t o t  information do you have, of your own personal know­

ledge, with regard to any incidents of violence or 
breaches of the peace in the City of Montgomery, Ala­
bama, on or about the 20th day of May, 1961, as related



516
(R-1283)

to passengers on a bus entering the City of Montgomery?
A. I was present at the Incidents that occurred at the bus 

station that day.
Q. Did you have any notice or knowledge in advance of the 

fact that these people were arriving?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did that knowledge come to you?
A. We were notified officially by the Federal Bureau of In­

vestigation that the bus had left Birmingham and was 
coming to Montgomery.

Q. Do you know whether or not the press, T. V. or radio
mediae that are disseminated there in the City of Mont­
gomery carried any information concerning the fact that

(R-1284)
these people were expected in Montgomery?

A. They did. The radio and T. V., the press, although we
were also notified by the Associated Press that they had 
a dispatch, but the newspaper did not come out before 
they came in. However, it was announced over the radio.

Q* Chief, what breaches of the peace or incidents involving 
physical violence occurred there at the station that 
day?

A. We had quite a bit of it that morning after the bus came 
in. Some several minutes after the bus came in and the 
passengers got off a group of possibly ten or twelve 
men attacked them, and then of course it turned into a 
regular scene of fighting and rioting and attracted some



517
(R-1284)

quite a large crowd.
Q. Had there been any attempt whatsoever by anybody under 

your supervlslonal control or any member of the City 
of Montgomery Police Department or any other law en­
forcement agency to act at that time so as to enforce 
separation or segregation of the races?

A. Not a bit.
Q. Had there been any attempt in the City of Montgomery in 

your knowledge to arrest or prosecute persons in Mont­
gomery city bus terminal for a violation of any ordinance 
or statute or for an actual mixing or mingling between 
any races in that terminal, whether covered by a sta­
tute or not?

A, There was not.
(R-1285)Q. Do you know of any such previous arrests or prosecutions?
A. No, sir.
Q. Here the acts of physical violence limited to the imme­

diate area of the bus station?
A. They were not. Once they got started then the crowd

scattered over the downtown business area and into some 
parts of the residential area. There were acts of 
violence for several hours.

Q. Did the Montgomery city police attempt to stop these acts?
A. We did, and did stop quite a bit of it. Of course, it 

was impossible to do all of it because it would happen 
so quick you couldn't get to it.



518

(r-1285)
q. Had you heard prior to the time the bus came to Montgo­

mery —  had you heard there had been acts of violence 
in other cities of .Alabama?

A. We had.
Q, What decision was made as regards the actions that would 

be taken by the police department of Montgomery, Alaba­
ma, in case these people came to Montgomery?

A. Our decision was that if we did not congregate any large 
force of policemen at that station, these people would 
in all probability come in, go about their business, and 
we would not attract any crowd there. We had the sta­
tion under observation by a number of policemen to 
observe whether or not any crowd congregated. No 
crowd did congregate.

Q. How long have you been a resident of Montgomery, Alabama?
(R-1286)
A. 56 years.
Q. Do you attempt toknow the people in that city?
A. I think I do.
Q. Was your judgment in this regard based upon your supposi­

tion of what these people would do in this instance?
A. It was.
Q. Was the information concerning these events passed

through regular police channels by your department to 
other police departments?

A. Yes, thatfs right.



519
(R-1286)

BY MR. CLARK: Nothing further.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: We would like to make the same motion 
with respect to the testimony of this witness as we 
have made to the prior two witnesses.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You may cross examine without waiving 
your motion if you like.

CROSS EJCAMINATION
EY MRS. MOTLEY:
Q. Mr. Stanley, you know of your own knowledge, don't you, 

that the police of the City of Montgomery were con­
demned by the United States District Court —

BY MR. CLARK: We object to that. That is an attempt 
to get in indirectly the evidence she said she was 
going to produce, and we objected.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Under the circumstances, we will 

(R-1287)admit it. She had no advance notice, and that is the 
only way she could prove it.
BY MR. CLARK: Is my objection overruled?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Overrule. Of course, all of this evi­
dence is being taken, the rulings, with the case.

(The last question was read.)
q. -M—  for failure to take appropriate actions to protect 

the riders on the bus?
A. We were criticized.
Q. For failing to protect the riders?



520

(R-1287)
A. That's right,

BY MRS. MOTLEY: I think that is all.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You may he excused.

(Witness excused)
BY MR. CLARK: May the record note we move to exclude 
all the questions and answers on cross examination of 
this witness?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Ruling will be reserved.
BY MR. CLARK: We have no further oral proof at this 
time.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Do any of the other defendants have 
any?
BY MR. YOUNG: We would like to offer the driver of the 
bus. He is in the witness room.

(R-1288)
LESTER GRANTHAM, called as a witness and having been duly 
sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION 
BY MR. J. WILL YOUNG:
Q. What is your full name?
A. Lester Grantham.
Q. You are a bus driver for the Jackson City Lines?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you been such?
A. Twenty-five years.



521
(R-1288)
Q. Did you operate a streetcar in Jackson prior to the bus 

operations?
A. No, sir.
Q, Mr. Grantham, how long have the white and colored signs 

been in those buses?
A. Ever since I have driven them, started driving.
Q. For twenty-five years?
A. Yes.
Q. You have been in the constant employ —
A. Yes, sir.
Q. —  of this company all that time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Mr. Grantham, what are your instructions in reference to 

that sign that is in that bus?
A. Well, my instructions is to, if I go to picking up more 

colored folks than I do white people, to move my sign 
up front, and if I get more white people than I do 
colored, to move it back.

(R-1289)Q. That sign is about four by nine inches and it is sus­
pended from the top of that bus somewhat like a traverse 
rod for a curtain?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you can sit in your seat and move it forward and 

backward?
A. No, sir, you have to get out of your seat to move it.
Q. You have to get up to move it?



522

(R-1289)
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Again, what are your instructions as to that sign?
A. Well, my instructions, the sign, to move it backward and 

forward to keep the races separated.
Q. To keep the colored people on one end of the sign and the 

white people on the other?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What instructions have you had from your superiors to do

/
I in the event someone doesn't get on the right side of 

that sign?
Is to stop my bus and wait until another bus that is 
following me catches me and then transfer ray passengers.

Q. Do you have any instructions to make any suggestion to a 
passenger who may get on the wrong side of the sign?

A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. Grantham, on the occasion down on Capitol and Lamar 

Street when there were four colored people who sat on 
the front part of your bus, do you remember that occa­
sion?

A. Yes, sir.
(R-1290)
Q.« One of those four people have testified here in this

trial. One of those four people was Doris Grayson, who 
has testified here in this trial. Will you tell this 
Court the complete circumstances and everything that 
happened and everything you did that day you know, of 
your own knowledge.



523
(R-1290)
A. Well, It was 1:24 P.M. when I arrived at that intersec­

tion. I began to pick up passengers, and these four 
was the first ones to get on the bus. They paid their 
fare and sat down on the front seat, the long front seat 
on the side.

Q. That is one of the seats that runs lengthwise of the bus?
A. Yes, sir. And two of them sat on a short seat just at the 

end of this long seat, I asked them to move back. I 
asked them three times. And they were reading their 
papers and studying their books. So neither one of 
them didn't never look up. So I figured what was happen­
ing there, so I didn't say another word to them.

Q. What did you figure was happening?
A. Well, I figured it was sit-ins.
Q. There had been a lot of publicity about sit-ins?
A. A lot of publicity.
Q. Did you ever move the bus at all after they got on that 

bus?
A, No, sir.
Q. After they ignored you and your saying that they move, 

what did you do?
(R-1291)
A. I killed the motor and went across the street and called 

my superintendent.
Q. Who is your superintendent?
A. Mr. Smith.
Q. What did you tell him?



524
(R-1291)
A. I told him what had happened and I asked him what to do.
Q. What did he tell you to do?
A. He told me to let her sit there until another but caught 

me and then transfer my passengers.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. That’s what I did.
Q. When you got back to the bus, what was happening?
A. Well, they were still there, sitting right where they 

first sat down. So I didn’t get back in the bus. I 
just stood around out on the street, and a policeman 
appeared. The fellow on the beat down there happened 
to come by.

Q. Did you send for him?
A. Wo, sir.
Q. Did you make any effort to have the policeman come there?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, go on and tell what the policeman did.
A. Well, this beat policeman, he got on the bus and asked 

them just as nice as I did to move back, and they V refused. So he called the headquarters and it wasn't 
but just a very few minutes before the carload of them 
arrived.

Q,. Mr. Grantham, did you ever read Section 7785 of the 
Mississippi Code of 1942, which requires that bus to

(R-1292)
have a sign four by nine inches on it with White on 
one side and "Colored" on the other?



525
(R-1292)
A, No, sir, I never read it.
Q. Is that the approximate size of that sign?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is that what is on it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q, Do you attempt, to the best of your ability, to keep that 

sign properly posted?
A. I sure do,
Q. That is your instructions?
A. Yes, sir.
Q, Do you have any instructions to make any effort other than 

that required of you by this section to enforce any 
segregation?

A. No, sir,
Q. The instructions you have about what to do in the event 

someone gets on the wrong side of that sign, where do 
those instructions come from?

A. Come from my superintendent.
Q. IX) you know where he gets his instructions?
A. No, sir.
Q. You are instructed, I believe, to not touch anyone nor 

make any assault on anyone or any physical effort to 
move anyone?

A. That*s right.
Q. Your instructions are solely to park the bus and not ope­

rate it if this section of the law is not complied with



526

(R-1292)
on your bus?

A. Yes,
BY MR, YOUNG: That is all.

CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MRS, MOTLEY:
Q, When did you say this incident occurred?
A. I don’t remember---

BY MR. YOUNG: He didn’t say.

Q. You didn’t say when it occurred?
A. I don’t remember the date, but it was in the afternoon 

at 1:24.
Q. Was it this year?
A. Yes, May of this year.
Q. You don’t remember the date?
A. No.
Q. Were there any white persons on the bus?
A. Yes.
Q,. At the time these four Negroes were on the bus?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there any disturbance on the bus?
A. Not a bit.
Q. Was there any disturbance outside the bus?
A. No, not any.
Q. Where did you say the policeman came from?
A. He was on his beat. That was his beat around that area



527
(R-1293)

where I stopped my bus, and he just happened to come 
(R-129 4)around the corner of the building there. I don’t know 

where he came from.
Q, But you had stopped the bus at that point?
A. Yes.
Q, How often have you traveled that route?
A. About every 45 minutes.
Q, For how many years?
A. 25 years.
Q. So you knew where the policeman stopped or would be lo­

cated?
A. No.
Q. You didn’t know where he stopped?
A. Not the policeman on the beat. He has an area to cover 

there. I don’t know where he was. He just happened 
to come around that corner there.

Q. How long had the bus been stopped when the policeman 
appeared?

A. Oh, I ’d say about —  I don’t know. Ten minutes probably. 
Q. How long did you say you have been driving a bus?
A. October 6th will be 25 years.
Q. Of Jackson City Lines?
A. Yes.
Q. Prior to this time have you ever noticed any Negroes 

riding in front of the bus?
A. No.



528
(R-1294)
Q. Wien the policeman came on the bus, did the students 

offer any resistance?
A, Yes, they resisted when he asked them to move. They still 

didn't move.
(R-1295)Q. When he arrested them, did they resist the officer?
A. This policeman, he didn't arrest them. He called head- 

quarters and some more came and they were the ones that 
arrested them,

Q. Did they resist the officer?
A. And the second group came and asked them to move just as 

nicely as me and this other policeman did, and they 
refused.

Q. Did they say anything to the policeman?
A. Didn't open their mouths.
Q. When the policeman asked them to get off the bus, did 

they get off?
A. He didn't ask them to get off the bus. He asked them to 

move back.
Did he tell them they were arrested?

A. After they refused he did.
Q. After he told them they were arrested, did they refuse 

to get off?
A* No, got up right quick and went to the car without any 

assistance.
^ This sign you described, how long has that been on the 

bus?



529
(R-1295)
A. Ever since we have had bases, I believe. As far as I

can remember ever since they started to operating bases.
Q, I believe you testified that you have been instructed by 

your employer to stop the bus whenever a Negro sits in 
violation of the sign or a white person sits in violation 
of the sign?

A. Yes.
(R-1296)
Q. What were you instructed to do after the bus was stopped?
A. Call the office, superintendent's office.
Q. Did you call the office in this case?
A, Yes.
Q. What were you instructed to do after you called the 

office?
A. To stay parked until a bus following me caught me and 

then transfer my passengers to it.
Q. Then what were you instructed to do?
A. Continue on my •—  get back on schedule and continue on 

my route.
With an empty bus?

A. Well, X began to pick up passengers again after I got 
back on schedule.

Q. What were you instructed to do if the passengers refused 
to get off the bus?

A. Sit there, sit right there.
Q. And then what were you instructed to do?
A. Well I was to sit there until —  I believe I got off



550
(R-1296)

that time about 3 :05. I would have stayed right there 
until 3:05.

Q, Would you have stayed on the bus or gotten off?
A. I would have been probably out on the street walking

around. I wouldnft have been sitting down all that time.
Q. And you would have left the bus without a driver in the 

seat?
A. I would have been around the bus but I wouldn't be sitting 

down in the bus.
Q. So that the police would notice a bus without a driver. 

Isn't that right?
(R-1297)
A. Wo. The policeman would have seen me if he had come

around to see about the bus. I would have been around.
Q. What instructions were you givenwith respect to the 

policeman coming to the abandoned bus? What were you 
instructed to tell the policeman if he asked you why 
the bus had been abandoned?

A. I haven't had any instructions. If it had been aban­
doned I wouldn't have been sitting there. I would have 
moved.

Q- What?
A. I would have gone on on my schedule.
Q* I'm asking you what you were instructed to tell the 

police if he asked you why you were standing on the 
sidewalk and the bus standing in the street with no 
driver?



551
(R-1297)
A, I haven't been instructed to tell the police anything 

about that, but I'm sure he would see what the trouble 
is.

BY MRS. MOTLEY: I think that is all.
BY MR. YOUNG: I have further questions.

REDIRECT E}CAMIHATION
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q. Mr. Grantham, you don't stop the bus out in the street, 

do you?
A. No, sir.
Q. The bus is pulled to a stop at the curb, isn’t it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The corner on which this happened is to Jackson what 42nd 
(R-1298)

and Broadway is to New York. Isn’t it the main corner 
in the City of Jackson?

A. That ’ s right.
Q* In the same block this Post Office Building is in?
A. Yes.
Q* The Deposit Guaranty Bank is on one corner, Walgreens 

on one corner, and the telephone company on the other. 
And there is practically all the time a policeman on or 
about that corner?

A* One or the other. That’s his beat.
0* When you pulled up and stopped on this corner, were you h 

headed west?



(R-1298)
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you stop in front of the bank?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is the regularly provided yellow painted curb for 

the bus stop?
A. Black and yellow, yes, sir.
Q. Is that where you pulled up and stopped when the four 

passengers got on?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever move that bus from the time you stopped it 

there until after the police took these passengers off 
the bus?

A. No, sir.
Q. Now, by inference, Mr. Grantham, counsel wants to lead 

the Court to believe that you knew where the policeman 
was and when you got off the bus you went looking for 
him.

A. No, sir, I didn’t.
(R-1299)Q. Did you make any contact with any police officer?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you have any intention of looking for a police offi­

cer?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you follow your instructions to the letter?
A. I followed my instructions.
Q* Do you know, Mr. Grantham, that under the law as written



553
(R-1299)

in this book that you could be arrested if you didn’t 
stop the bus, if you carried the passengers when they 
are in violation of that sign?

A. Well, I didn’t know it, but I must have been or my boss 
wouldn't have told me to do that.

BY MR, YOUNG: That is all.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Any further examination of this wit­
ness? If not, you may be excused.

(Witness excused)
(Whereupon the court was recessed until 1:30 P.M.)

After Recess
P. E. LAMMEY, called as a witness and having been duly sworn, 
testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. O'MARA:

Q. What is your name?
A. P. E. Laramey.
Q* Speak up loud where all of us in the room can hear you.

By whom are you employed?
A* Southern Greyhound.
(R-1300)
Q* How long have you worked for the Greyhound Company?
A. A little over 21 years.
^ In what capacity?
A. Bus operator.
0* Mr. Lammey, there has been testimony in this case with



(R-13500)
regard, to the incident In Clarksdale, Mississippi, 
involving one Vera Pigee in April or May, 1959- Were 
you the driver on that bus?

A, Yes, sir.
Q. Where did that bus schedule originate?
A. Greenville, Mississippi.
Q. What was its destination?
A. Memphis, Tennessee,
Q. Did it pass through Clarksdale on that run?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you got into Clarksdale, did you have any through 

passengers on your bus?
A. Yes, sir,
Q. Would you tell us, for the benefit of all of us, what 

you mean by a through passenger?
A. That is a passenger that gets on the bus en route to

points beyond Clarksdale before arriving at Clarksdale.
Q. When you arrived in Clarksdale did the through passengers 

stay on the bus or did they get off?
A. We have a ten minute rest stop there, and they are free 

to get off at that point.
Q. On this occasion, do you know whether the through passen­

gers got off the bus?
(R-1301)
A. Part of them.
Q* What did you do when you got to Clarksdale?
A. Well, we have to sign in on one of the reports upon



535
(R-1301)

arriving and leaving, and passenger accounting.
Q. Did you have to get off the bus to do that?
A. Oh, yes. It’s inside the ticket office.
Q. How does a passenger know how different passengers on

that bus know when the bus is ready to leave Clarksdale?
A. They have a call for it over the P. A. system_
Q. When the call was given over the loud speaking system 

that this bus was ready to leave Clarksdale, what did 
you do?

A. X went back to my bus to get my original passengers back 
on.

Q. Was Vera Pigee at the bus at that time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where was she? That is, where was she with reference to 

the bus?
A. Standing almost against the door.
Q. Was the door of the bus open or closed?
A. It was closed.
Q* How does that door open?
A. It opens from the back to the front of the bus. The 

hinges are in the front.
Q* When you open the door, it swings toward the front end of 

the bus?
A* Yes.
0* Were any of your through passengers on the bus at that 

time?
A* Some few of them.



536
(R-1302)
Q, Had those gotten off when you got into Clarksdale?
A. I’m not sure whether —  These passengers, maybe one or 

two had gotten on the bus before I came back out, I 
wasn't at the door of the bus during the whole time.

Q, What is the rule or policy of the company with regard to 
through passengers getting on the bus before local 
passengers, and when. I say "local passengers," I ’m re­
ferring to, say, passengers that boarded the bus 
originally in Clarksdale on that trip,

A. Well, the passengers that come into a rest stop on a bus 
are privileged to get off the bus for coffee or rest­
rooms and to get back on the bus before any of the local 
passengers or passengers boarding the bus at that point 
are allowed to get back on.

BY MRS. MOTLEY: We object to the testimony. If there 
is a regulation of the company, that written, regulation 
is the best evidence.
BY MR. O'MARA: Well, I’ll ask what the practice is.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Of course, that would be the best evi­
dence.

Q. Is that the practice of the company and bus drivers with 
regard to putting through passengers on the bus first, 
as you have just outlined?

A. Yes, it is.
Q* Wow, when you came up to the bus, you say Vera Pigee was



537
(R-1303)

standing at the door. Were there any passengers that 
had not gotten on the bus at that time?

A. Yes.
Q, When you put your through passengers on the bus, do you 

have to count them or determine the number on the bus?
A, Yes, sir.
Q. Why do you have to do that?
A. Well, in order to keep from leaving passengers that came 

in on this bus at a rest stop, we have to know whether 
they have gotten all back on that were originally on 
there.

Q. Do you determine that before or after you lef a local 
passenger board the bus?

A. Before.
0* When you walked up to the door of the bus to where Vera 

Pigee was standing, would you tell the Court in your 
own words what happened?

A. Well, I came out to the bus and she was standing against 
the door and I asked would she mind moving over, that 
I had other passengers that had to get back on the bus.

Q* Let me interrupt you for this question. When you came to 
the bus there did you hear any conversation between 
this passenger and a porter at the station?

A- Yes. This porter asked her would she move; that there 
were other passengers to get back on.
Did you tell her why other passengers would have to get
on first?



538
(R-1303)

A. He told her that the ones that had seats on the bus had
(R-1304)

to reclaim the seats before I loaded the other passen­
gers.

Q. What was the conversation, If any, between you and Vera 
Pigee?

A. I asked her to move over to let these other passengers 
on and she says, "Do you mean I have to move to let 
someone else on?" I said, "The ones that came In on 
this bus will have to get back on It before I can take 
any of the other passengers here."

Q. What did she say?
A. She didn’t say anything at that time, just stood and 

didn’t move.
k. Did you open the door or not?
A. Yes, I did.
Q< At that time where was she standing?
A. Well, as I opened the door, she — . I just opened the 

door, and as I opened the door she moved back with 
the door.

Q. Did you let any through passengers on the bus then?
The rest of the through passengers on the bus?

A. I did.
0* Were there any persons standing to the rear of this pas­

sengers at the time you were having this conversation?
^ There were several passengers standing there to board the 

bus.



539
(R-1304)

Q. Did you let them on the bus first?
L Not until I got my original passengers back on,
Q. I mean before you let Vera Pigee on.
A, Yes, I did.
(R-1305)
i Did you have any further conversation with Vera Pigee at 

that time?
A, No, sir.
Q. Were these passengers standing back of her members of 

the white race only or white and colored or colored?
A. They were whiteand colored.
Q. I believe you said you let those passengers on before 

you let Vera Pigee?
A. I did.
Q. Were they local passengers?
A. They were.
Q. Did you have any conversation with Vera Pigee relative to 

the fact that she, even though she had a ticket, could 
not run the bus?

A* After taking the other tickets, I told her, "This ticket 
you have was to ride this busj it wasn’t to run it - to 
operate it."

Q. Why didn’t you let her on the bus as the first local pas­
senger?

^ Well, as I finished getting these other passengers that 
came in on the bus back on, there was not anyone in any 
particular line. They were standing and they had their



540
(R-1305)

tickets, so I just started taking the tickets.
Q. Did she get on the bus?
A, She did.
Q. Do you know what her ticket was?
A. Memphis.
(R-1306)
Q. Did she ride the bus to Memphis on that occasion?
A. She did.
Q. Suppose that instead of that passenger having been Vera 

Pigee, it had been a white person, would you have let 
that person on before you let your through passengers 
on?

A. No, sir.

BY MRS. M0TLEY_ We object to hypothetical questions.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Carry the ruling with the case.

Q. You may answer the question.
A. I would have stopped anyone from getting on before my 

regular passengers got back.
Q* Was the fact that she was a colored person —  Did that 

make any difference to you in not letting her on the bus 
the very first thing?

A. No difference.
Q* When she got on the bus, did you tell her what seats 

whe would have to take?
A. No, sir.
0* Have you been given any oral instructions or orders by



5^1

(R-1306)
the Greyhound Corporation with regard to sitting pas­
sengers on the bus?

A. I have been instructed not to have anything to do with 
where anyone sits.

Q. When passengers get on a bus which you are driving, re­
gardless of whether they are white or colored, do you 
attempt to designate the seat that that passenger is to

(R-1507)
occupy?

A. No.

Q. Does the passenger have the right to sit where he or she 
desires?

A. Any seat that is vacant.

BY MR. O ’MARA: That is all.

CROSS EXAMINATION
BT MRS. MOTLEY:
Q. Mr. Laramey, how many through passengers were on the bus 

when it left Greenville?
A. I donft recall the number leaving Greenville.
Q* Were there any Negrog, passengers on the bus?
A. There were both races.

How many Negroes would you say were on the bus?
A- I wouldn't recall the exact number.
Q. Were there men and women?
A* Both men and women.

How did you know that Mrs. Pigee wasn't one of those



542
(R-1307)

through passengers?
A. She had the ticket in her ha^d.standing at the bus.
Q. Did you see the ticket?
A. Well, it is easy to see it.
Q, How is it easy to see?
A, Well, the ticket is about so square and no trouble to see.

Just like I see this man working this machine.
Q. Are all the tickets the same color?
(R-1308)
A. Not all tickets, not the same color.
Q. Was this different from a through ticket?
A. Not in color.
Q. How did you know it wasn't a through ticket?
A. Well, a through ticket has already been t o m  apart,

where one that hasn't been lifted still has the unused 
portion on it.

Q. When Mrs. Pigee was standing at the door, what did you say 
to her?

A. I asked her to move aside, that I had through passengers 
that needed to board the bus before I could take any 
local passengers on it.

Q* What did she say to that?
A* She said, "You mean I have to move back to let someone 

else get on before I do?"
0* What did you say?
A- I said, "Sure will, I have these through passengers that 

will have to board the bus before I can take anyone



(R-1308)
else on."

Q, What did she say then?
A. She didn!t say anything.
Q. You said there were Negroes and white people standing 

behind Mrs. Pigee in the line?
A. No, I said they were standing out there. They wasn't 

necessarily anyone behind anyone. They weren't in a 
line. They were standing out at the bus.

Q. Did you advise any of these people they would have to 
wait until the through passengers got on?

(R-1309)A. Well, I made the announcement but not to any particular 
one of them.

Q. What announcement did you make?
A. I just said the passengers that came in on this bus would 

have to board it before I take on the others.
Q. Did you say it to the others or just to Mrs. Pigee?
A. They were standing there.
Q. I thought you testified the announcement was made in the 

terminal.
A. The announcement for the departure of the bus was made in 

the terminal.
0* No announcement about through passengers boarding first?
A. There is an announcement. When they call the bus, that is 

the first thing they call over the speaker, for the 
passengers who came in on the bus to get in their seats, 
and then they immediately call the stations on the



544
(R-1509) 

route.
^  How many passengers were on the bus when you arrived, in 

Clarksdale?
A. I don't remember exactly.
Q. Was it crowded?
A. No.
Q. How many would you estimate?
A. After loading there, I took on several passengers and I 

still had plenty of seats. I don't remember just how 
many were there.

Q. How did you know this woman's name was Vera Pigee?
A. After arriving in Memphis, she went to my company offi~
(R-1310)

cials and through the report I made to my company I knew 
her name through the report.

Q. Who made the report?
A. I made the report, my report to my company officials. She 

had talked to the company officials prior to that.
Q. Didn't she make a complaint to the company and then you 

submitted your report?
A. Well, she may have talked to the officials before I made 

the report, because on arriving there, it wasn't any 
time for me to make a report at that time.

Q, Would you have reported this incident without the company 
requiring you to do so?

4. We report all instances without requirements.
When a person just tries to get on the bus before the



545
(R-1310)

through, passengers, you always report that?
A. If there is any question about it, we do.
Q, What question was there about it in this case?
A. Well, the fact that she refused to move when I asked her 

to was grounds to have a report on it.
Q, But you made this report after she complained, didn't 

you?
A. I imagine that I did, and I just happen to know that she 

did talk to one of the officials after arriving in Mem­
phis.

Q. I think you testified you have been driving buses for a 
Greyhound Corporation for 21 years?

A. A little over 21 years.
Q. Has that been in the State of Mississippi?
A. Between Memphis, Tennessee, and the State of Mississippi. 
Q. During all those 21 years?
(R-1311)A. I have been between Memphis and Mississippi.
Q» Have you been under instructions all of this time to let 

people sit wherever they want?
A. Hot all of this time, no.
Q. What were your instructions when you first started driv­

ing?

BY MR. O'MARA: We object to that because what 
happened 21 years ago would have no connection with 
this case.
EY JUDGE RIVES: I think you are going back too far.



5^6
(R-1311)

BY MRS, MOTLEY: I withdraw that,

Q, When was It you were instructed to let passengers 
choose their own seats?

A. It has been quite some time ago. I don’t remember the 
time. In fact, I don’t remember when the orders came 
out.

Q. Was that about 20 years ago?
A. It wasn’t 20 years ago, but I don’t remember how long It 

has been.
Q. Was it 10 years ago?
A. I don’t remember how long it’s been,
Q. You don't have any idea?
A. Wo, I don’t remember when it was.
Q. Did the company explain to you why they made this regu­

lation or rule?
A. They gave me orders not to interfere with the seating of 

passengers.
Q* Is that in writing?
A. Orally and in writing.
(R-1312)
^ Did they tell you why?
A. I don't recall whether there was a reason given in this 

or not.
0* Where did Mrs. Pigee ride when she boarded the bus?
^ I don’t know what seat she was in.
k You don’t know where she rode?

I know she rode approximately maybe half way in the coach.



5^7
(R-1312)

I donft know in what number seat.
Q. How many Negroes were sitting up front?
A. I don't recall whether there were any on this schedule or 

not.
Q. There weren't any Negroes.
A. I said I didn't recall whether there were any in front or 

not.
Q. Were there any in the back?
A. Well, there were both white and colored on the bus that 

day.
Q. Were any white people in the back?
A. I don't recall whether there were or not.
Q. And you don't recall where Mrs. Pigee was sitting?
A. Approximately half way of the bus I would say. I don't 

recallthe exact seat.
Q. You just recall she gave you a lot of trouble outside.
A. I don't recall where anyone sat because I don't know one 

passenger from the other.
Q. You don't know one passenger from the other?
A. We don't have any way of knowing the names of our passen­

gers. It is not required.
Q. But I mean, a person with whom you have had a dispute, 
(R-1313)you don't recall where that person sat after that?
A. Not necessarily. She is free to sit in any vacant seat. 
Q. But you don't recall any Negroes on the front?
A. I don't remember where they were sitting.



548

(R-1313)
BY MRS, MOTLEY: Those are all the questions,

(Witness excused)

BOEBY RAY BURKS, called as a witness and having been duly 
sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR, O'MARA:

Q. What is your name?
A, Bobby Ray Burks.
Q. Where do you live?
A. 2787 Amherst, West End, Shreveport, Louisiana.
Q. By whom are you employed?
A. Continental Southern Lines, Incorporated.
Q. In what capacity?
A. Operator.
Q. Do you recall an incident that occurred some time In

November of i960 at the Continental Southern Bus Station 
here in Jackson when it is said that a Dr. Jane Mc­
Allister was taken off a bus by a city police officer?

A. Yes, sir.
Q* Were you the driver on that bus?
A. Yes.
(R-1314)Q. Did Dr. McAllister get on the bus as a passenger?
A* Yes, sir.
Q* Had you loaded your bus? That is, had all of the passen­

gers gotten on the bus at the time she got on?



549
(R-1314)
A. I don’t understand the question. Would you reword that 

or something?
Q. What I«ra trying to find out is this: Before the police 

officer took her off the bus, had all your passengers 
gotten on the bus that were going to leave Jackson?

A. Yes.
Q. When all the passengers got on your bus, what did you do 

or where did you go?
A. After the passengers were loaded, I took my tickets and 

went to the dispatcher’s office to sign out, which is 
the opposite end from the bus station from where I 
was loading.

Q. Is that a usual practice you follow as a bus driver?
A. Yes, sign out after loading always before leaving.
Q. What did you then do?
A. After signing out, I started back to my bus.
Q. Did you get to your bus?
A. I don’t believe so. I can’t recall exactly whether I did 

or didn’t. I don’t think I did.
0* When you left the dispatcher’s office and went back to­

ward the bus, did you see a police officer and Dr. Mc­
Allister standing there talking?

A. I saw a police officer and Dr. McAllister getting off the 
bus.

(R-X315)
W. Were you near them?
A. No.



550
(R-1315)
Q. Did you have any conversation with Dr. McAllister?
A. At that time, no.
Q, Were she and the police officer talking?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you shortly after that have a conversation with D p. 

McAllister?
A. What do you mean by conversation?
Q. Did she say anything to you or you to her?
A. Yes.
Q. What was it —  what did she say and what did you say?
A. She asked, the best I can remember, that I was a conduc­

tor on the bus and I had no right letting a police 
officer on the bus, and I answered her that we coopera­
ted with the police, and any time a police officer wants 
to check the bus, I fm supposed to give him my permission.

Q* Was Dr. McAllister inside the bus or outside the bus at 
that time you were talking to her?

A. Was the police officer standing there?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any book that you pulled out of your pocket 

at that time?
A. Wo.
k What then happened with regard to Dr. McAllister?
A. Well, there was a lot of arguing back and forth.
0* Between whom?
A- Between the police and she. And I backed up. We have



551
(R-1316)

some rails at the bus station, and I backed up against 
the rail and just waited until it was all over with.

Q. Did she get back on the bus?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the officer leave?
A, The officer assister her back on the bus.
Q. Did you get on the bus?
A, Yes.
Q. Did you then leave?
A. I got back on the bus, and we have courtesy cards. If an 

accident or anything unusual happens, we get the cour­
tesy cards filled out. I got on the coach and got the 
courtesy cards filled out.

Q. Backing up a little, Mr. Burks, when Dr. McAllister first 
got on the bus, did you tell her where to sit or did 
she choose her own seat?

A. The passengers chose their own seats.
Q. Do you have any written or oral instructions from your 

superiors with regard to seating passengers on the bus?
A. Yes, to let them seat themselves where they want.
Q. Do you point out or tell a passenger where he or she is 

to sit on the bus?
A. No.
Q. I want you to state to the Court whether or not you asked 

this officer to go on the bus and talk to or see Dr. 
McAllister?
I didnlt ask the officer on the coach.



552
(R-1316)
Q. Sir?
(R-1317)A. I did not ask him to get on the bus.
Q, Did you know he had gotten on the bus until you had 

gotten back out from checking in?
A. No, because my back was turned to the bus. As I said, 

it is on the opposite end, and I walked with my back to 
the bus.

BY MR. O ’MARA: That is all.
BY MR

CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MOTLEY:
Q, Had Dr. McAllister ridden with you before this incident?
A. Yes.

oftenQ. How/would you say she had ridden with you before this 
incident?

A. That I couldn’t say.
Q. Well, has it been a week or two before that?
A. You mean the last time she rode with me?
Q. No. How often had she ridden with you would you say?
A. She had been riding with me, roughly, for nine or ten 

years.
Q. Did you know her very well?
A. I knew that she rides from Vicksburg to Jackson and

taught at Jackson College. I didn't know what her name 
was.

When you came back to the bus after having left to make



555
(R-1517)

your report and you saw Dr. McAllister talking to the 
police, did you ask him what happened?

A. No.
Q. When you heard the police officer arguing with Dr. Mc­

Allister, did you ask what the trouble was?
(R-1318)
A. No.
Q. You recognized her, didn't you, as this woman who had 

ridden with you for nine years?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was Dr. McAllister sitting?
A. I do not know.
Q. Where did she sit when she got back on the bus?
A. Third seat from the rear, left hand of the coach.
Q. Were there other people sitting back there also?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was sitting back there near her?
A. I do not know.
Q. Were they white or colored?
A. They were colored.
Q. How many were there?
A. I don't know. I believe it was two,
Q. Were there any white people back there?
A. No.
Q. Were there any Negroes riding on the front of that bus?
A. No.
Q. After police had escorted Dr. McAllister back on the bus,



554
(R-1318)

did you ask her what had happened?
A. I donrt recall.
Q. Why did you give out these reports of accident?
A. Because it was something unusual. I said when we have an 

accident or something unusual, we get the so-called 
courtesy cards filled out.

Q. What was unusual about this?
(R-1319)A. Any time an officer takes a passenger off a bus, it is 

considered an unusual incident.
Q. Whether you know why or not?
A. Yes,
Q. And you make no investigation to find out why the officer 

is taking the passenger off the bus?
A. No, I sure don't.
Q, Did you report this incident to your company?
A, I sure did.
Q. How can you report an incident you don't know anything 

about?
A. I report the removal of a passenger on my card.
Q. But you don't give any indication of why the removal was 

made?
A. No, unless they tell me.
Q. And you never asked?
A. Very seldom.
Q. Why didn't you ask in this case?
A. I don't know.



555
(R-1319)
Q. Did. Dr. McAllister say to you that she was looking to 

you for protection?
A. Dr. McAllister said I was conductor of the bus.
Q. Did she say she expected you to protect her?
A. She said I was the conductor of the bus.
Q. That is all she said?
A. She may have said something else. I don't recall. Seems 

to me she did, but I don't know.
Q. She knew you were the conductor of the bus, so she didn't 

have to advise you that you were. She knew that —
(R-1320)

She has known you for nine years.
A. That's right.
Q.. So she didn't have to tell you you were the driver of the 

bus. Is that all she told you?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Do Negroes generally ride on the back of your bus going 

to Vicksburg?
A. Negroes generally ride on my bus wherever they want to be 

seated.
Q. When was the last time you saw any Negroes in the front 

of your bus?
A. What's the date of the day?
Q. Yes, when was the last time?
A. What's the date of today?
Q. 27th of September.
A. The 26th was the last day I pulled a run, which was yes-



556
(R-1320)

terday,
Q. Yesterday you saw some Negroes on tbs front of your bus? 
A. Yes.
Q. Was it Dr. McAllister?
A. No.
Q. Have there ever been any before yesterday?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you had instructions to let passengers 

seat themselves?
A. Several years. I can't remember the exact date. But

it's been several years. By that I mean 2 or ) or more.

BY MRS. MOTLEY: That is all the questions.
(R-1321)

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WATKINS:
Q. Mr, Burks, was the police officer courteous to Dr. Mc­

Allister?
A. I thought so.
Q. How long did he detain her with his conversation?
A. I would say, roughly, 25 to 30 minutes, because I was 

about 40 minutes late leaving.
Q. And at the conclusion, you say he assister her back on 

the bus?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he attempt to direct where she sat on the bus?
A. As far as I know, he did not,



557
(R-1321)
Q. Has Dr. McAllister on each instance when she has ridden 

your bus sat where she wanted to sit, insofar as you 
know?

A. Yes.
Q. Has she ridden your bus regularly since this occurrence 

of November 28, i960?
A. No.
Q. Do you know whether she rides a different bus or how she 

comes to Jackson, or have you been transferred?
A* X changed runs.

BY MR. WATKINS: I believe that is all.

RECROSS EXAMINATION
EY MRS. MOTLEY:
Q. I thought you told me you didn’t hear the police officer

talking to Dr. McAllister.
(R-1322)
A. On the bus?
Q. No, outside the bus.
A. I didn’t hear it.
Q. How do you know he was polite to her?
A. I said when he started to assist her back on the bus. 

Isn’t that what I said?
Q. No, you said he was polite to her. You didn’t say any­

thing about assisting her back on the bus.
A  I thought the question was, when he assisted her back on 

the bus, or when he told her to get back on the bus,



558
(R-1322)

op something.
Q. But you can’t tell whether he was polite to her because 

you didn't hear what he said. Isn't that right?
A. I listened at a conversation, but I can't recall the

words that were being said, so many people talks harsher 
than other people.

Q. What did he tell her?
A. I don't remember.
Q. You don't know whether he was polite or not?
A. When he assisted her back on the bus, he was polite.
Q,. That is the only time you would say?
A. Yes.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WATKINS:
Q. Did he do or say anything in your presence to Dr. Mc­

Allister that you would consider discourteous?
A. As far as I recall, no.
(R-1323)

BY MR. WATKINS: That is all.
(Witness excused)

GERALD B. SHELTON, called as a witness and having been 
duly sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. O'MARA:
Q. What is your name?
A. Gerald B. Shelton.



559
(R-1323)
Q. Where do you live?
A. Meridian, Mississippi.
Q. By whom are you employed?
A. Continental Southern.
Q,. How long have you been employed by Continental Southern? 
A. 14 years.
Q,. In what capacity?
A. Bus operator.
Q. There has been testimony in this case with regard to an 

incident that took place in Meridian, Mississippi, on 
March 11, 1958, in which a person by the name of Medgar 
Evers was involved. Are you familiar with that inci­
dent?

A. Yes.
Q. Were you the bus driver on that occasion?
A. That is right,
Q,. Where did he board the bus?
A. Meridian, Mississippi.
Q. What was his destination?
A. Jackson, Mississippi.
(R-1324)
Q. Did you take up his ticket?
A. Yes.
Q. At the time that he got on the bus, where were you when 

you took his ticket?
A. Standing at the door of the bus where we take up tickets. 
Q, Inside or outside?



560
(R-1324)
A. Outside.
Q. Did he then go on to the bus and take a seat?
A. That is right.
Q. Where did he sit?
A, Right front seat of the bus.
Q. Did other passengers get on the bus at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. In Meridian?
A. Yes.
Q. When you got all your passengers on the bus, what did 

you do?
A. When I loaded my last passenger, I got my clipboard and 

started inside to sign out and list my tickets on the 
waybill, and after I stepped out of the door well 
of the bus, this lady came out of the bus that had a 
ticket to Newton and said she wanted her ticket back 
and said she didn't want to ride that schedule, that 
she*d catch the next one. I gave her her ticket back, 
and a policeman was standing there----

Q.. Beforethat now, had you made any statement to Evers prior 
to that?

A. Yes, sir.
(R-1325)Q. Tell the Court what you said to him.
A, After I loaded my last passenger, I got up in the bus and 

got my clipboard with the waybill and I saw him sitting 
on the right front seat of the bus, and I asked him



561
(R-1325)

if he would move toward the rear.
Q. What did he say?
A, He told me he preferred to sit there. That is all that 

was said, and I got my waybill and got off the bus.
Q, And that was on March 11, 1958. At that time did the 

company have a rule with regard to seating of intra­
state passengers?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the rule?
A. We could suggest that they sit at the rear of the bus.
Q. Let who?
A. Colored passengers sit at the rear of the bus.

BY MR3. MOTLEY: We object to that. If that rule is 
in writing, that is the best evidence.

Q. Is that an oral rule?
A. Yes.
Q. Subsequent to that time, had you been given oral instruc­

tions that are different to that?
A. After that?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, immediately after then we were.
Q, When you talked to this passenger and asked him if he

would move to the rear and he told you that he preferred 
(R-1526)

to sit where he was, what did you then do?
A. I got my waybill and started Inside to list my tickets to 

sign out and leave.



562
(R-1326)
Q. Inside the station?
A. Yes. Got off the bus to go inside the station to sign 

out and leave.
Q. Where did you run into the woman who asked for her ticket 

back?
A. She got off the bus right behind me when I got off to go 

inside, and she asked for her ticket back.
Q. Why did she want the ticket back?
A. Didn't want to ride behind the colored fellow sitting on 

the front of the bus, she said.
Q. Did you give her her ticket back?
A. Yes.
Q. You said something about an officer.
A. He was standing by the station about four or five feet 

from the bus.
Q. Did he have anything to say to you?
A. Well, he came up when she asked me that and asked what 

was going on. You could tell there was something, I 
guess.

Q. What did you tell him?
A. I told him this lady didn’t want to sit on the bus with 

this colored sitting on the right front seat, and she 
asked for her ticket back and I gave it to her.

Q. Did he then say anything to you?
A. He told me to wait, that he wanted to call the chief,
(R-1327)

which he did. He went inside the station and called the



563
(R-1327)

chief, and he and a detective came over there.
Q. Who?
A. A detective.
Q. How many officers came?
A. Those two, the chief and the detective and this one al­

ready there.
Q. Were there 2 carloads of officers came up there?
A. I didn't see them.
Q. What did the officers do?
A. The chief told me he wanted to carry him up to the police 

station for identification, and he went on the bus and 
got him off and carried him to the police station.

Q. Did you leave or remain there?
A. I remained around the bus there at the station, inside 

the station.
Q. Did this passenger return to the bus?
A. He did.
Q. In about how long a period of time?
A, I couldn't say for sure. I imagine about 20 or 30 minutes 

maybe.
Q. Did you then leave the station?
A. Left the station.
QU In the bus with your passengers?
A. Left the station and proceeded to Jackson.
Q. Was he on the bus?
A. That is right.



5 64
(R-1328)
Q. Where did he sit when he returned from the police sta­

tion?
A. On the right front seat of the bus,
Q. Was that the same seat he had occupied when he first got 

on the bus?
A, That is right.
Q. As you driving out of the City of Meridian, did another 

incident take place?
A. That is right.
Q. Would you tell in your own words what it was.
A. Well, I was proceeding out of Meridian on 45th Avenue

and there was a red light at 45th and 8th Street, which 
is also 19 and 80 highways. This cab passed me just 
before I got to the red light, waving me down. I 
thought —  you know, they do that pretty regular.
Every once in a while they do, for somebody to catch 
the bus. By the time I got stopped, I was at the red 
light, and I stopped the bus and opened thedoor.

Q. Was the light on red or green?
A. It was on red when I stopped there.
Q. Where did you stop with regard to the street?
A. It was in the right lane. There are two lanes.
Q. Were you in the travel portion of the street when you 

stopped?
A. Yes, there is only two lanes there.
Q. Go ahead.
A. I was watching the red light and the traffic at the same



565
(R-1328)

time, and this fellow came on the bus, and I was 
watching the red light, and out of the corner of my 

(R-1329)eye I seen him make a grab for this fellow, and asked 
me —  I donrt remember the exact words, —  said some­
thing to the effect that he would take care of him, 
or something, and I told him to go on and let him alone.

Q. Did you see any licks passed between the man that got on 
the bus and the passenger?

A. I didn’t see him strike him. As I say, I was watching 
the red light and the traffic, and out of the corner of 
my eye I seen him make a grab or something. I couldn’t 
say whether he struck him or not.

Q. What did you do or say?
A. Told him to get off the bus and let the passenger alone 

and that I would take care of the situation, which he 
did.

Q. Did he then get off the bus?
A. He then got off the bus.
Q. Did you know the individual?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever seen him before or since?
A. It was dark, understand, 1:30 in the morning —  about 

1:45 by then.
Q. What did you then do?
A. I proceeded to Jackson on my schedule.
Q, And I assume you arrived in Jackson?



566
(R-1329)

A. Yes.
Q. Since the date of this occurrence, you say that the com­

pany has given you oral Instructions with regard to the 
seating of passengers. What is that rule or what are

(R-1330)
the instructions at this time?

A. We are not to ask passengers, regardless of race or color, 
where they are to sit on the bus. We take the tickets 
and they sit where they please.

Q. Sir?
A. I say, we are not to suggest or tell any passenger where 

to sit on the bus. We take up the tickets, they sit 
where they please.

Q. How long, approximately has the present rule been in 
effect?

A. I couldn't say. It wasn't long after this incident hap­
pened.

Q. Was it in the year of *58?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you driving regularly at this time for Continental 

Southern?
A. That's right.
Q. Do you ever have any Negroes sitting up at the front of 

your bus?
A. That is right.
Q. When a Negro gets on the bus you are driving now, what 

orders or requests, if any, do you give or make to him



567
(R-1330)

with regard to where he Is to sit?
A, Not any.
Q. What orders or requests do you give or make of white per­

sons —
A. Not any.
Q. —  that get on the bus with regards to where they sit?
A. Not any.
(R-1331)Q* As I understand it, the passenger sits where he wants to? 
A. That is right.
Q. And you say you do now have Negro passengers riding in 

the front of the bus?
A. That is right.
Q. Are there white passengers that ride to the rear of those 

colored passengers?
A, Yes.
Q. Is that a fairly common occurrence, would you say?
A. What is that?
Q. Do you see that quite frequently?
A. Oh, yes. Most every day now.

CROSS EXAMINATION
EY MRS. MOTLEY:
Q. Prior to this incident, what instructions were given you 

by your company regarding the seating of passengers?
A. That we would suggest the colored passengers sit to the 

rear of the bus - intrastate passengers.
Q. What instructions were you given in the event that the



568
(R-1331)

colored passenger did not accept your suggestion?
A. That that is all we should do, just suggest that they do, 

and if they don't, not to bother with it.
Q. Did you advise the police officer in Meridian of this 

rule?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you advise the white woman who refused to sit behind 

the Negro of this rule?
A. I did not.
(R-1532)Q. What time was your bus scheduled to leave Meridian that 

night?
A. 1:00 A.M.
Q. What time did you get started?
A. I don't remember exactly. It was about 45 minutes late 

leaving, I think.
Q. Because of this incident?
A. That's right.
Q. And you never advised the police officer that the man 

could ride wherever he pleased?
A. I did not.
Q. But you held the bus up for 45 minutes while they took 

him to the police station?
A. By order of the chief of police. He ordered me to do 

that.
Q. What did he tell you?
A. Told me to hold the bus until he carried the man over to



569
(R-1532)

the police station for identification.
Q. I believe you testified that after you got started you 

noticed a taxi cab driver flagging you.
A. I couldn't say for sure if It was a cab driver. Some one 

in a cab,
Q,. What was to be your next stop after leaving Meridian?
A. Chunky, Mississippi, is the next,
Q. How far is that from Meridian?
A, About 13 miles,
Q. Do you have to make any report of the number of passengers 

you leave Meridian with who have boarded the bus?
A, That is right,
(R-1333)Q, Why do you have to dothat?
A. The report of how many that leaves?
Q, Yes, leaves with you as you leave Meridian.
A. That is for the company and the office. Wehave a waybill 

and then we have a sign-out sheet inside the station 
for the company records to show how many passengers 
we left with and how many we arrived with.

Q, And what their destination was?
A. Wo, don't tell the destination. Just how many passengers 

you arrive and leave with.
Q. And your next stop was Chunky, Mississippi?
A, Mississippi, yes.
Q. Are you permitted to stop anywhere you please and pick 

up passengers?



570

(R-1333)
A. That is right.
Q,. Anywhere along the road?
A. That is right.
Q, When do you make a report of those passengers?
A. At the time you pick them up you cut a cash fare, list 

them on your waybill and turn it in with your report.
q . You mean you are authorized to stop at every corner be­

tween Meridian and Chunky to pick up passengers?
A. On local schedules. They have express schedules and 

local schedules.
q>. On local schedules from Meridian to Chunky you can stop 

on every street corner and pick up passengers?
A. Pick up passengers anywhere between Meridian and Chunky.
Q. When this man got on the bus from the taxicab, why didn't
(R-1334)

you take his ticket?
A. He didn’t have a ticket. He didn't offer me one.
Q. Pardon me?
A. He didn't have a ticket or didn't offer me one.
Q. You let a passenger ride for free?
A. No. The first I knew —  I was watching the red light, 

as I said —  he grabbed this fellow and asked me that 
he would take care of him, or something to that effect.
I seen what was happening then, and I told him toget 
off the bus and let him alone, which he did.

Q. When you stopped to pick up passengers all along the 
way, when do you take their tickets?



571
(R-1334)
A. At an instance like that, stopped at a red light, you

would pull on through and get out of the lane of traffic 
and stop and cut his cash fare, or take his ticket, 
wherever he is going.

Q, Did you report to anyone the fact the man had gotten on 
this hus and struck one of your passengers?

A. After I got to Jackson, I did. Imade out a full report.
Q. You made out a report?
A. Made out a full report.
Q. Where is that report?
A. In the company's files.
Q,. What is the date of the report?
A. The day after that, after it happened, I guess.
Q. The day after it happened?
A. I called my superiors when I got to Jackson. I was on a 

round trip run, Meridian to Jackson; I returned to 
(R-1335)to Meridian that morning and made the report out that 

day and turned it in.
Q. What is the man's name you reported about having been 

struck?
A. Medgar Evers, I believe.
Q. You said that after this incident you were instructed to 

let Negroes ride wherever they please.
A. That is right.
Q. Did you tell that to the police officers in Meridian?
A. I did not.



572
(R-1335)
Q. Did you tell that to any Negro passengers as they boarded 

the bus?
A. I did not.

BY MRS. MOTLEY: Those are all the questions.
(Witness excused)

M. V, STALLINGS, called as a witness and having been duly 
sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION
EY MR. O ’MARA:
Q. What is your name?
A. M. V. Stallings.
Q. Where do you live?
A. Columbus, Mississippi.
Q. By whom are you employed?
A. Continental Southern Lines,
Q,. In what capacity?
A. Driver.
(R-1336)
Q. How long have you been employed as a bus driver by Con­

tinental Southern?
A* 14 years.
Q. Mr. Stallings, there has been some testimony in this case 

relative to an incident involving a passenger named 
John Frazier which occurred in August of i960 in Winona, 
Mississippi. Were you driver of the bus on which Fra­
zier was a passenger?



573
(R-1336)
A, Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you start driving the bus on that particular 

run?
A. Columbus, Mississippi.
Q. Where did you pick up John Frazier as a passenger?
A. Columbus, Mississippi.
Q. Was he a through passenger or one that originated in 

Columbus, Mississippi?
A* He was a through passenger changing from one coach to 

another.
Q. Do you know what bus line he used to get into Columbus?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What bus line did he use?
A. Continental Southern line.
Q. He didn’t use a Greyhound bus to get into Columbus?
A. No, sir.
Q. How do you know that?
A. Because I saw him get off the bus.
Q,. Did you see whose bus it was?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you take up a ticket from him?
(R-1337)A__ Yes, sir.
Q. Did you take a ticket up from Frazier when he got on your 

bus?
A, Yes, sir.
Q. I hand you this and ask you to tell the Court what it is.



574
(R-1337)
A. This is a round, trip ticket from Greenville, Mississippi, 

to Atlanta, and return.
Q. Is that the ticket that you took up from Frazier when 

he got on the bus in Columbus, Mississippi?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How do you know that is the ticket?
A. Because here's my punch mark and here's my name on the 

back where I gave it to the station manager in Winona, 
Mississippi.

Q. What is written on the back?
A. "QjK., Stallings."
Q,. Is that your handwriting?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did I understand you to say that ticket is punched with 

your marker?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What do you mean by that?
A. Each and every driver has punches that we have to vali­

date the ticket with, and each one has a mark, and this 
is my mark with three punch marks.

Q. Do all the drivers have the same mark or different marks?
A. Every driver has a different mark.
(R-1338)

BY MR. O'MARA: We offer this ticket as an exhibit.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendants' Exhibit
#2. This exhibit is not copied here because upon order of



575
(R-1338)
the Court all original exhibits are sent up with the mimeo­
graphed record.)

BY JUDGE MIZE: Where is that from?
BY MR. O ’MARA: Greenville, Mississippi, to Augusta, 
Georgia and back to Greenville, Mississippi.
BY MRS. MOTliEY: We'd like to object to that on the 
ground it hasn't been shown to be the ticket which was 
purchased by Johnny Frazier. The man identified it as 
a ticket on which he punched holes and that being his 
punch mark. It hasn't been shown to be the ticket of 
Johnny Frazier.
BY JUDGE RIVES; I understood him to say that is the 
ticket he took up from Johnny Frazier. Is that your 
testimony?
BY WITNESS: Yes, sir.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You remember the individual man?
BY WITNESS: Yes, because it was the only through pas­
senger I had with a ticket from Atlanta.

(Mr. O'Mara continues:)
Q. Is this the return trip portion of the original ticket? 
A. Yes, sir.
Q,. What company issued that, what bus company?
A. Continental Trailways ticket, but at Greenville, Missis­

sippi, all of us go into the same station, and it is 
(R-1339)issued on the back as Dixie Greyhound, and all of them



576
(R-1339)

pulls into the same station —  Greyhound, Trail ways, 
Missouri-Pacific.

Q. Which bus company*s ticket is it?
A. Continental Trailways, Continental Southern Lines.
Q. Continental Southern Lines. That appears on the face of 

the ticket, doesn't it?
A. That's right,
Q, Mr. Stallings, I believe you say you saw Frazier get off 

a Continental Southern bus that came into the station in 
Columbus, Mississippi?

A. Yes, sir,
Q. And then he got on the bus you were driving of Continen­

tal Southern leaving Columbus, Mississippi?
A, Yes.
Q. How long was he in Columbus?
A. Approximately 30 minutes.
Q. When he got on your bus, what —  was that the time you 

took the ticket from him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did he sit on the bus?
A. Second seat, right side of the bus.
Q. Did you go on the bus and say anything to him?
A. Not immediately, but in putting my bag and things on my 

bus, I went and said something to him.
Q. What did you say to him?
A. I asked him didn't he stop a little far up front.
Q. What did he say to you?



577
(R-1340)
A. He said, "I like it here."
Q. I want to ask you if you said this to him, or words to 

this effect; "Nigger, you're not going to ride on the 
front seat of this bus."

A. No, sir.
Q. Did you make any similar statements to him?
A. No, sir.
Q. When you asked him if he was not sitting up a little far 

to the front of the bus, were you violating any company 
rules?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had you before that time had any oral orders or instruc­

tions with regard to the sitting of passengers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What are those orders?
A. Sit as they may see fit.
Q. When the company found out that you had violated this 

rule by making this request of this passenger, did the 
company get on you or call you on the carpet, so to 
speak?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you planning to do it again?
A. No, sir.
Q. When you made this request of him, you in fact violated a 

rule or an order of the company that you knew about 
and knew was in force and effect?

A. Yes, sir.



578
(R-1340)
Q. Was there any other Incident that happened in Columbus,

or did you drive on?
(R-13^1)
A. No, sir.
Q. Did the passenger continue to sit in this particular seat? 
A. Yes.
Q. Did he sit in that seat all the way to Winona?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you then, I assume, left Columbus?
A. 6:30, yes, sir.
Q. Did you make any stops between Columbus, Mississippi, and 

Winona, Mississippi?
A. Yes, sir.
Q,. Do you know how many?
A. I’d have to call them off to you.
Q. All right.
A. Mayhew Junction, Starkville, Mathiston, Eupora, Stewart, 

Kilmichael, Winona.
Q. Are those regular stops?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you stopped at those several towns you mentioned?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I want to ask you if at any time between Columbus, Mis­

sissippi, and Winona, Mississippi, you stopped your bus 
at a place which was not a regular bus stop and got off 
the the bus and left the bus?

A, No, sir.



579
(R-1341)
Q. Did you make any telephone calls at all on your way 

between Columbus and Winona?
A. No, sir.
(R-1342)
Q. Did you ask anybody to make any telephone calls for you?
A. No, sir.
Q. When you got into Columbus, or rather, into Winona, did 

you drive on to the bus station?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you drove to the bus station, did you see any offi­

cers present?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where were they?
A. At the back of the station as I went around the station.
Q. Was that near the point where you parked your bus?
A. No, sir.
Q. Where did you park your bus?
A. Parked in front of the station in the Dallas docks.
Q. Sorry?
A. Parked in front of the station in the Dellas, Texas, dock. 
Q. Had you requested any officers to meet you at the station 

in Winona?
A. No, sir.
Q, Had you requested anybody to meet the bus?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you have lots of express on that bus?
A. Yes, sir.



580
(R-1342)
Q. Did you have anything in particular that you remember 

by way of express?
A, Yes, sir.
Q. What was it?
(R-1^3)A. I had 25 sacks of seed from Columbus, Mississippi, 

changing in Winona.
Q,. When you brought your bus to a stop at the station in 

Winona, did your passengers get off?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did John Frazier get off the bus?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see him again while you were unloading your ex­

press?
A. Wo, sir.
Q. Did you have any help in unloading these sacks of seed? 
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you personally assist in unloading them?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have any express you had to pick up?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In Winona. Was that put on your bus when you finished 

unloading the express?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it put on the bus at the same place you originally 

parked?
A. Yes, sir.



581

(R-13^5)
Q. When you loaded your express, what did you then do?
A. I go in to get a call.
Q. What do you mean?
A, To get a call Is for all the through passengers to come 

back and load the bus and give the first call for the 
departure of the bus,

(R-1344)Q. When you went in to get this call, as you say, did you 
see Johnny Frazier then?

A. I did,
Q. Would you tell the Court what you saw?
A, I saw him in front of the ticket window fighting or

scrambling with the deputy sheriff and another gentle­
man,

Q, Had you seen Frazier at any time between the time he got 
off the bus in Winona and when you saw him scrambling 
with the officer?

A, No, sir.
Q. You do not know what he had been doing or where he had 

been?
A. No, sir.
Q. Go ahead and tell the Court what you saw.
A. Well, as I said, I saw him fighting or scrambling, and 

he was hit by the deputy sheriff and they carried him 
out the back way of the station.

Q. Who is "they"?
A. The deputy sheriff and another gentleman.



(R-1344)
Q,. Do you now know who the other man was?
A, Yes.
Q. Who was it?
A. Happened to be the sheriff.
Q. Did you know him at that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you know the deputy sheriff prior to that time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you participate in that scrambling or fighting?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know what caused it?

(R-1345)A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know who started it?
A. No, sir.
Q. What was done with Frazier?
A. I don't know.
Q,. Was he taken away or did he stay at the station? 
a. Yes, sir, he was taken away.
Q. Who took him away?
A. The sheriff and the deputy.
Q. What did you then do?
A. I went to the bus, checked his seat, got his umbrella, 

went through my tickets, got his ticket, carried them 
in and gave them to Mr. Staley.

Q. Who is he?
A. Mr, Staley was the ticket manager, ticket agent, in



583
(R-1345)

Winona.
Q. Has he passed away at this time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you then do?
A. I then got my call and departed for Greenville.
Q. Before Frazier was taken away from the bus station in 

Winona, did you see a group of some four or five men 
walk up to Frazier and to the officers and some two or 
three of those men hold Frazier while an officer struck 
him?

A. No, sir.
Q, Did that take place in your presence or not?
A. It did not,
(R-1346)

BY MR, CLARK: Before counsel goes into cross exami­
nation, we had an objection as far as the Attorney Gene­
ral was concerned which was sustained as to all the 
evidence by Johnny Frazier as not admissible against 
the Attorney General, and I don’t want to waive my 
rights. May we have the same objection to this exact 
same incident on behalf of this witness, as to the 
Attorney General?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes, sir.

CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MOTLEY:
Q. How long have you been driving the bus for Trailways



584
(R-1346)

Company from Columbus to Winona?
A. 14 years.
Q. -And you have stopped in Winona over a period of 14 years? 
A. Yes, sir.
Q- And you don't know the sheriff - until this happened?
A. No.
Q. Isn't it a fact the sheriff’s office is right near this 

terminal?
A. I do not know.
Q. You don't know?
A. Don't know that.
Q,. I believe you testified that you did not participate

with the sheriff and his deputy in beating this passen­
ger?

A. I did not.
(R-1347)
Q. But if you had participated in beating this passenger 

and admitted----

BY MR. CLARK: We object to that. That infers he par­
ticipated in some sort of altercation, which is entirely 
contrary to the facts.
BY JUDGE RIVES: She hasn't completed the question.

Q. If you had participated in this action and had admitted 
it, that would have resulted in disciplinary action by 
your company?

BY MR. CANNADA: We object. There has been no testimony



585

(R-1347)
from Frazier himself or anybody that the bus driver had 
anything to do with it. He didn't even know the bus 
driver was present.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Was there any evidence he participated? 
BY MRS. MOTLEY: I believe Frazier testified the driver 
blocked his way so he could not get out of the way of 
the sheriff while he was inside the colored waiting room. 
BY JUDGE RIVES: Reserve the ruling.

Q, Do you want to answer the question?
A, Repeat the question.
(Same was read by the reporter. )
A. I do not know.
Q. You don’t know the company rules regarding beating of pas­

sengers?
A. I do not know.
(R-1348)Q, Does your company permit you to beat up its passengers?
A. I do not know.
Q. How many stops did you say there are on a route between 

Columbus and Winona?
A. I said I ’d have to call them off.
Q. Just estimate the number.
A. Approximately six.
Q. Are these stops made at bus terminals?
A. No bus terminals. They are at service stations. One is 

a car place that sells automobiles, and there is one 
bus station between Columbus and Winona.



586
(R-13^8)
Q. What is that?
A. Starkville.
Q. Starkville?
A. Yes.
Q. Are there any telephones at any of these stops?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. I believe you said that you saw Johnny Frazier get off the 

bus he had ridden from Atlanta?
A. Yes, ma' am.
Q. How did you happen to see him?
A. I was there in front of the dock where the bus from Bir­

mingham and Atlanta come in.
Q. Is that a Trailways bus, did you testify?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And you work for Trailways?
A. Yes, ma'am.
(R-1349)Q. Do you see that bus come in often from Atlanta?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q,. You know the driver?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Isn't it a fact that he told you that John was riding the 

front of his bus?
A. Wo, ma' am.
Q. How many people got off that bus?
A. Some fifteen or twenty.
Q, Were they Negroes and whites?



587

(R-1349)
A. Yes.
Q. How do you remember Johnny Frazier getting on?
A. I remember him because he had an umbrella. He was the 

only passenger had an umbrella and a briefcase.
Q. When he got on your bus and sat on the front seat and you 

asked him wasn’t he seated a little far front, what did 
he say to you?

A. He said, "I like it here."
Q. What else did he say?
A. That is all.
Q. Pardon?
A. That's all he said. Was very nice.
Q. How was it that you undertook to violate the company rule 

at this time?
A. I do not know.
Q,. Had you done it before?
A. No, ma’am.
Q. This was the only time?
(R-1350)A. Yes, ma’am.
Q. Was this the only time a Negro had ridden on the front 

of your bus?
A. Yes, ma’am,
Q. When you saw the sheriff and his deputy beating one of 

your passengers, did you inquire of them what he had 
done?

A. No, ma’am.



588

(R-1350)
Q,. You didn’t pay any attention?
A. No, raa1 am.
Q. I believe you said your company now has a policy of per­

mitting Negroes to sit wherever they will on the bus?
A. That’s right.
Q. How long has that been in effect?
A, Several years.
Q. How many would you say?
A. I do not know.
Q. Would you say two years?
A. That long, if not longer.
Q. Would you say ten years?
A, No, Ma’am.

BY MRS. MOTLEY: I believe those are all the questions. 
BY JUDGE RIVES: Any redirect?
BY MR. O ’MARA: Yes, sir.

(R-1351) REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. O’MARA:
Q. Mr. Stallings, did you block the way of Frazier when he 

was having this scrap with the officer or have any 
part in that scrap?

A. I did not.
Q. Did you hold him?
A. I did not.
Q. Or do anything to him?



(R-1351)
A. X did not, 
Q. All right.

(Witness excused)

589

BZ JTJDG-E RIVES: At this time we will take a 15 
minute recess.
(Whereupon the court was recessed for 15 minutes.)

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