Anderson v. City of Albany, GA Transcript of Record Vol. III
Public Court Documents
August 3, 1962
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Anderson v. City of Albany, GA Transcript of Record Vol. III, 1962. b285b54b-ac9a-ee11-be37-00224827e97b. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/2c55fdfb-e519-4259-8e89-1bfb968448ec/anderson-v-city-of-albany-ga-transcript-of-record-vol-iii. Accessed April 06, 2025.
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TRANSCRIPT OF RECORD
UNITED STATES
COURT of APPEALS
F I F T H C I R C U I T
No.
W. G. Anderson, et al. v.The City of Albany, Georgia, et al.Volume III
Appellants
Appellees
C. B. King221 South Jackson Street Albany, GeorgiaDonald L. Hollowell Cannolene Building (Annex) 859-1/2 Hunter Street Atlanta, GeorgiaJack Greenberg Constance Baker Motley Norman Amaker 10 Columbus Circle New York 19, N. Y.Attorneys for Appellants
H. G. Rawls, Esq.P, O. Box 1496 Albany, GeorgiaEugene Cook, Esq.Judicial Building 40 Capitol Square Atlanta, GeorgiaE. Freeman Leverett, Esq. Elberton, GeorgiaAttorneys for Appellees
Appeal from the United States District Court for the Middle District of Georgia, Albany Division
I N D E X
(Volume III)
Pa&e
HEARING ON MOTION FOR PRELIMINARY
INJUNCTION, NO, 727 — ------------ 529A
Testimony of Capt, J. E. Friend
Direct Examination ------------------------------- 529A
Cross E x a m i n a t i o n ---------- — ----- --------------- 537A
Testimony of Lt. B. L. Manley
Direct E x a m i n a t i o n --------------- -— ----- -------- 552A
Cross Examination --------- -----— •— ------------- - 570A
Testimony of Fire Chief E, E. Moody
Direct E x a m i n a t i o n --------------------------- 587A
Cross E x a m i n a t i o n ---------- ----------------------- 592A
Redirect Examination ----------------------------- 59^A
Testimony of Mr. George F. Johnson
Direct E x a m i n a t i o n ----------— ------- ----------- 597A
Testimony of Price L. Westbrook
Direct Examination ----------- 600A
Cross E x a m i n a t i o n ------------ 608A
Testimony of Mr. R, G, Wills
Direct E x a m i n a t i o n -----------— --------------- - 620A
Cross Examination ------------ 624a
Testimony of Dr. W. G. Anderson - Defendant
Cross E x a m i n a t i o n ----------- ---------------------- 637A
Appearances D e s i g n a t e d ------- 6 6 5A
Testimony of A s s ’t. Chief J. J. Lairsey
Direct E x a m i n a t i o n --------- --- *------------------ 69OA
Cross E x a m i n a t i o n -------------- ------------------- 692A
Testimony of Mr. Raymond F. Slaughter
Direct Examination ------------------------- -— 703A
Cross Examination — ---------- ------ ------------ -— 705A
Testimony of Mr. Allen Churchwell
Direct E x a m i n a t i o n --------------------------- 705A
Cross E x a m i n a t i o n ---- ------------ 710A
Redirect E x a m i n a t i o n ------------------- —-------- 714a
Recross Examination ------------ 716a
Redirect E x a m i n a t i o n ---------- ---------------- -— 719A
I N D E X
(Volume III continued)
Page
Testimony of Mr. Proctor M. Johnston, Jr.
Direct E x a m i n a t i o n ------------ 720A
Cross E x a m i n a t i o n ----------------------------- 722A
Redirect Examination ------------------------- 724 a
Recross Examination -------------------------- 725A
Redirect Examination ------------------------- 726a
Recross Examination ------ 728a
Testimony of Mr. A1 Morris - Recalled
(See Volume II, page 390A)
Redirect Examination ------------------------- 729A
Testimony of Mr. Charles Jones - Defendant
Cross E x a m i n a t i o n ------------- 731A
Plaintiffs' Exhibits O f f e r e d ---- ----------------- ■ 742A
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 5 29 A
CAPT. J. E. FRIEND
12th witness called and sworn
in behalf of Plaintiffs, testified
Direct Examination3Y MR. RAWLS:
Q Identify yourself to the court reporter there,
Mr. Friend, please?
A I ’m Captain J. E. Friend of the Detective Bureau,
Albany Police Department.
Q How long have you been with the Albany Police
Department, Mr. Friend?
A 12 years.
Q Continuously?
A No sir.
Q How much intermittent period 'were you off duty?
A I spent two year’s with the Georgia State Patrol,
between 1952 and 195*1.
Q What experience as a police officer have you
had, just in sort of a nutshell, Mr. Friend?
A I have worked with the Traffic Division, in
charge of the Traffic Division; worked as a patrolmanj I
have worked as captain in charge of a shift, and I am now
in charge of the Detective Bureau.
Q In addition to that, you’ve had two years with
the State Highway Patrol?
A Yes sir.
Q Mr. Friend, have you been connected with the
Chief of Police during all of these so-called demonstrations
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 530A
and marches conducted under the auspices of the Albany
Movement here in Albany?
A I have.
Q Now, do you recall any incident on Saturday,
July — on December 17, 1961, does that date bring anything
to your mind in connection with the Defendant, Martin Luther
King?
A It does.
Q What is that?
A Lt. Manley and myself ted been assigned to
observe and protect, look out for the interest of all of
the people, colored and white, that might be around the
churches at Shiloh and Mt. Zion churches, or anywhere
else that Dr. King might go to. We had been stationed out
at the side of the church probably two hours. Some news
men came out of the church and we were advised that it
looked like there would be a march.
In a few minutes Dr. King and Dr. Anderson came
out of the front door of the Shiloh Church and stood there
momentarily while they were being photographed. They made
a left turn on to the sidewalk on Whitney and proceeded east.
We had been advised previously to stay with
Dr. King. We got out of our car, got at the head of the line
of marchers or walkers, they were in columns of two's ccming
out of the church. When we turned the corner on to
Jackson Street, there were still followers caning behind
the line of march, turned north on Jackson and proceeded
north on Jackson; and we were met by Chief Pritchett and
other officers, and they talked with Dr. King.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 531A
After they were placed under arrest —
Q After who was placed under arrest, Mr. Friend?
A The demonstrators or marchers. They had been
advised to either disperse or — after they had been placed
under arrest, we marched to the rear of the Police Department
through the alley dividing the Royal Building and the City
Hall. In the front of the group Lt. Manley and myself
on either side of Dr. King and Dr. Abernathy - correction -
and Dr. Anderson.
As we approached the steps Dr. King made the
statement, he said ''Strike me first". I advised Dr. King
that there was nobody going to bother him in any way.
Q When you reached the steps of what, Mr. Friend?
A The side steps that goes into the Desk Sergeant’s
office. If you turn left after you enter the hallway, it’s
the caged area for the Clerk. If you go on down the corridor,
if you turn to the right, you go into the jail; and if you
make a left turn, you go to the Desk Sergeant’s office.
Q Had he made that same statement doxm the street
before he was arrested?
A I did not hear that statement.
Q You didn’t hear that?
A No.
Q Now, had anybody made any gesture or anything
toward Dr. King prior to him making- the statement "Strike
me first"?
A The only outburst or gesture made, to my
knowledge, was as we were travelling north on Jackson
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 532A
Street, as we were walking by the Harlem Cab Company, a colored
man standing In the door cursed at them and 'wanted them to go heme.
Q Said what?
A He said, "You damn people go home'*. And his remarks,
he was speaking to the crowd, the colored marchers. We were just
past the Harlem Cab Company approximately - well, a few steps beyond
the Harlem Cab Company, when this colored man came to the door in-
front of the Harlem Cab Company and In loud tones wanted them to go
home.
Q Nov/, that was a remark by a colored person in front of
the Harlan Cab to the marchers, was it?
A He was standing in the door of time Harlan Cab Company.
Q Now, Friend, on the night of July 24, did you have any
occasion to observe any of the activities of Martin Luther King and
these other Defendants, or anybody connected with the Albany Movement?
A On the 24th?
Q Yes sir?
A We took notes — We had been placed on surveillance.
Q Surveillance where, Mr. Friend?
A To observe the comings and goings of any one connected
with Dr. King. We were there for M s protection; wanted to make
sure that nothing happened to Dr. Martin Luther King. We were
stationed outside of Dr. .Anderson's house, where Dr. King had been
staying. Excuse me just a minute. . . (Witness referring to notes). . .
On the 24th Lt. Manley and myself were stationed at the
north City limits on U. S. #19, when Dr. King with his party came
into the City limits. We stopped the car and advised him that
Chief Pritchett would like to have a word with him. After he left
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 533A
Chief Pritchett's office, we went immediately to South Jefferson
Street and Dr. King and his party went into Elliott's Funeral Heme,
the home of Elliott, of the Elliott Funeral Heme; and from there
they walked to the church. As they got to the rear of the church,
we pulled out, after I had talked with Vinson Harding, who was driving
the car,, I advised Vinson Harding to give us a call and notify us
when they would be leaving the church.
Q Beginning to do what?
A They always notified us as to when Dr. King would be
leaving the church or going to the church, and we would give him
an escort.
Q Do you know anything of any incident that happened during
the course of a march held on the evening or the night of July 24?
A July 24 would be a Tuesday, I believe?
Q Yes sir?
A After the marchers had been placed under arrest --
let me back up for just one minute - We had left Dr, King at the
church.
Q , Which church, Mr. Friend?
A That was at the Mt. Zion Church, I believe; I couldn’t
be sure which church.
Q Mt. Zion and the other church are on opposite sides
of the street down there?
A Yes sir, they're across from each other.
Q That's the location you're talking about?
A Yes sir, at the intersection of Whitney and South
Jefferson Street. We left that area, travelled north to Highland
Avenue, made a right turn on to Highland caning to Jackson, turned
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No, 727 534 a
left on Jackson, and the Harlem area was very normal or sub-noraal
in people in that area. There were very few people in the Harlem
District at that time.
Q Now, when was that in reference to your visit to the
churches there? Vlas that prior to your visit to the churches or
after?
A No sir.
Q Or after your visit?
A That was after we had been to the church. As we left
the church, we drove directly to Highland, through Harlem and to
the City Hall.
Q Did you leave the Church after the marchers left the
church?
A Before,
Q Before the marchers left?
A Before the marchers left the church.
Q All right, go ahead?
A At approximately, on the 24th, it was approximately
10:55, we received a call that there was being a demonstration,
Lt, Manley and myself drove down Jackson Street. As we came to High
land Avenue, we could see a large group of colored persons coming up
the street.
Q From where?
A From the south side, frcm Whitney, from the area of
Whitney Avenue.
Q Do you mean the area where the churches are located,
Mr. Friend, or not?
A Well, it was a block away frcm the churches.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 535A
Q Mr. Friend, in observing these meetings at these churches
when the marchers would leave out, what would happen to the crowd
of people who would be in the church that didn’t join the march
and the people who were on the outside of the churches that didn't
join the march, what would happen to them?
A They would follow along and were giving them encourage
ment .
Q You mean following the marchers along?
A Some would be on both sides of the street and march along.,
except not in the column; but they would cane along with the marchers.
Q Well now, on the night of July 21, were you with the
Chief here and the other group of officers that went down to under
take to disperse this crowd that had assembled on the south side
of Oglethorpe? Were you in that party?
A Yes sir.
Q On the 24th?
A On the 24th.
Q That's what I'm talking about. Were you or not?
A I was.
Q What is your estimate of the crowd of people that had
assembled there and will you give us a description of the conduct of
members of the crowd, if you have any recollection of it?
A Lt. Manley and myself got in the patrol car, which is
equipped with loud speakers. At all of these demonstrations usually
there are large numbers of whites and colored in the area, the whites
being north of Oglethorpe and the colored being south of Oglethorpe.
We would use the loud speaker and disperse the crowds, have them
moving on, with the help of the Revenue Agents, also the police
officers.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 536a
When we got to Oglethorpe Avenue, traffic was heavy.
I would estimate the crowd between 2500 and 3000. They were
boisterous, they were cursing, using very vulgar language.
Q Will you tell us seme of the language you heard them
use?
A I heal’d from more than one voice in a loud voice, saying
"Send us Big Red" and "Come on down here, you white mother-fuckers”.
Q "White" what?
A "Mother-fuckers”. And "Trashy white police".
Q Did you observe anything else about the conduct of the
group that you estimate between 2500 and 3000 people?
A They were milling around, shouting, throwing objects;
and as we crossed Oglethorpe with Chief Pritchett at the head, I was
in the right column, and a little group would run up through the
cars, the parked, cars on the west side of the street, and run out
and spit at the officers; we were cussed for "sons-of-bitches",
"white bastards" and especially a "white son-of-a-bitching detective".
And as we got approximately in the area of the Ritz Theater, one
colored male, I could not identify, said "We’ve got the sons-of-
bitches where we want them now, let’s get them". And we were moving;
the crowd down as we went. But there were still stragglers on both
sides of the sidewalk.
Q Did you get hit by anything, Mr. Friend?
A I ducked several. I got hit on the leg after it had
hit the pavement and ricocheted.
MR. RAWLS: He's with you
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 537A
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. HOLLQWELL:
Q Mr. Frienda that's a nice name. May I ask you about
your statement concerning Dr. King, saying "hit me first": Are
you sure it was Dr. King?
A I am positive it was Dr. King.
Q Do you read the papers?
A I haven't had time lately.
Q Were you reading them in December?
A Some.
MR. RAWLS: Now, if Your Honor pleases, I notice
counsel has what appears to be a clipping from a newspaper.
We take the position that the clipping lias not been identified;
I don't know what it contains; but I say that he wouldn’t have
a right to read any statement from that clipping, unless it lias
been identified as a part and parcel of newspaper that was
published; and also identified by the reporter who put the
news item in the newspaper.
THE COURT: Suppose you do this, Mr. Hollowell, before
you read anything —
MR. HOLLOWELL: I didn't plan to read it, anything from
it at all, sir.
Q I show you D-8 and ask you if you would just read it
silently, this paragraph to which I am pointing, and see if your
recollection is refreshed in any way?
MR. RaWIS: Now, if Your Honor pleases, regardless
of what might be in that clipping from the paper, I say that
it has not been properly identified, nobody has testified as
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 538 a
to the newspaper it was published in; and there has been no
reporter on the stand to say that he gathered that news and re
ported it to his newspaper for publication; and to show this
witness just a printed statement is not fair to the witness.
THE COURT: Well, I anticipate probably that Mr.
Hollowell is getting at, he’s going to ask him to read some
thing and then ask him if that is a correct statement; and if
he does that, if that’s what he’s getting at, I will allow
It as part of his cross examination; but, of course, I will
not allow the paper to be Introduced In any way unless it is
properly identified.
MR. HOLLCWELL; Thank you, Your Honor.
MR. RAWLS: Besides that, Your Honor, he hasn’t fol
lowed the rule which requires that documents be submitted to
other counsel before submitting to the witness.
THE COURT: Of course, I was not going to require
him to do that unless you requested it; and now that you’ve
requested it, I will.
MR. HOLLOWELL: Be glad to, be glad to, Your Honor.
(Tendering newspaper clipping to counsel for Plaintiffs) . . .
Q Mr. Hollowell: Mr. Friend, would you defer for a moment
so your counsel or rather so the counsel for the Plaintiffs might
look at D-8?
THE COURT: Is it identified?
MR. HODjCWELL: Yes sir, D-8.
(Counsel for Plaintiffs reading clipping)
Q Mr. Hollowell: Having read the article, is your memory
in any way refreshed?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 539A
A Of this incident?
Q In this incident?
A As far as the newspaper clipping. I ’m not familiar with
what was said by Dr. Anderson at that time.
Q You are not familiar with it?
A No.
Q It's your best recollection that the statement, to which
you attributed in your direct to Dr. King was made by him as far as
your recollection goes?
A That is correct.
Q And would you submit that this statement here that you
read is incorrect?
A I didn’t hear that statement.
Q You did not hear it?
A I didn't hear it.
Q Now, who else was present at that time - and excuse me -
A There were numerous — *
Q Excuse me, sir — I ’m speaking of the time that this
alleged statement was made?
A There were between 8 and 10 officers. ‘They were waiting
at the door and sane outside of the door, right before we took them
in to be booked.
Q Can you name sane of than?
A I wouldn’t be sure.
Q As to any?
A Pardon?
Q As to any of them?
A I couldn’t say. I know Lt. Manley was close by but whether
he was right there, I do not know.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 540A
Q Where was the line of march stopped on the 16th of
December, when you were with the head of the line that was with Dr.
King and Dr. Anderson?
A To the best of my memory, it was on Oglethorpe and Jacicson
Streets.
Q Who stopped them?
A I believe it was Chief Pritchett.
Q They were stopped actually right in the middle of the
street, weren’t they?
A It’s possible. I can’t be sure.
Q You know that they did not reach the north side of
Oglethorpe before they rad been stopped, don’t you?
A I know they were stopped before they reached the north,
that is correct.
Q You were with them when they entered the street, when
they entered the crossing going across Oglethorpe on Jackson, from
south to north; ycu were right at the head of the line?
A That’s correct.
Q And they started across on the green light and were
stopped, you say, before they reached the north side?
A That’s correct.
Q And they were stopped by Chief Pritchett?
A Well, one of his officers. I know Chief Pritchett was
right in the Immediate area.
Q Now Mr. Friend, on the night of the 24th of July, were
you also walking at the head of that group?
A I was not
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 54lA
Q Did you see Dr. King that night?
A Could you clarify that? You mean In the march?
Q Yes?
A I did not.
Q Did you see him at home?
A I got in - corrections let me check my notes, please
(witness referring to notes) . . . I saw him. that night.
Q Where did you see him?
A On the 24th?
Q Right?
A We met him at the city limits of U. S. 19 north.
r\ At what time?
A It was right around dark. I ’m not - I don’t have the
time on that.
Q Did you see him in the vicinity of 10 o ’clock on that
night?
A At 9:07 P. fl. I saw him leaving Elliott's home on
South Jefferson, that’s at 520 South Jefferson; and he walked north
to the lit. Zion Church; and at 9:10 is the last I saw M m that night.
Q This was prior to the time of the so-called march, Is
that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q You saw him at no other time during that night?
A 1 did not.
Q Did you see any of the Defendants from that time until,
well say fron 9 o ’clock until 12 o ’clock on that night?
A From 9:00 to 12:00 ?
Q Yes?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 5^2A
A I don't recall seeing any of them.
Q Now, you met Mr. King, the Reverend King, on that evening
as he carae into the city limits?
A Yes.
Q He hadn't asked for any protection, had he?
A He had not.
Q This was voluntary on the part of the Police Department?
A We were assigned for Dr. King's protection.
Q Do you know why it was necessary to make such an assign
ment?
A That was the Chief’s decision and I didn't question his
command.
Q On this night that you say you were down in the area of
the 2- and 300 block on South Jackson, this is the 2Tth, how long
were you in the area?
A Well, I had been in and cut of that area from about
10:30, between 10:30 and 11:00, until after midnight, sometime after
midnight.
Q Now, from where were you caning when you first altered
that area and about what time was that?
A The first time we entered that area, we had been patrol
ling and riding that area .fromthe time we had escorted Dr. King to
the church.
Q That was 9:07, I believe?
A Right. We had a surveillance; I mean, seeing how the
crowd was and so forth. Vfe were in and out, sometimes on Pine
Street and sometimes on the south part.
Q The blocks between Oglethorpe and Whitney on South Jackson
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 5^3A
is generally pretty congested area, isn't it?
A Generally it is.
Q Incidentally, while you were in the process of keeping
surveillance on Rev. King, there was no one at any time made any
attempt upon his life in any respect, did they?
A Not at all.
Q Did you have the occasion to be patrolling on the night of
the 1st of August, 1962 In the vicinity of Mt. Zion Church?
A I had better get my dates. What Is today?
Q The 2nd?
A I did not.
Q You did not?
A No.
Q Do you know of any officers who did?
A I do not,
Q What about the night of the 31st of July?
A I don’t know who was on that —
Q Beg pardon?
A I don’t know if any one m s patrolling or not. I presume
they were.
Q As the Captain of the Detectives, would it not be nor
mally your responsibility for keeping sane record as to who and who
was not patrolling, or is that handled by another department?
A It is handled under another department.
Q Who handles that specifically?
A Chief Pritchett designates the officers to handle that.
That would be with your Uniform Division.
Q And you don’t know wto they were on that occasion?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction Mo, 727 544a
A I do not. It's a matter of record.
Q It is a matter of record?
A It’s a matter of record at the Police Department.
0 Now, on the night of the 24th of July, *62, were you
present in the vicinity of Broad and South Jackson at the time the
line of walkers were arrested?
A I was•
Q Were you a part of the arresting group?
A I did not make any arrests.
Q How long did it take than to clear tliis group from the
corner of Broad and to move then on to the jail?
A I don't know. I left. There was a lot of noise and
shouting further south, in front of the Bus Station, and I moved on
further south.
Q Weil, the group that was being arrested was moved out
promptly, right on up the center of Oglethorpe and right on up to
the jail, isn’t that correct?
A The next time I got to Broad,they were all gone.
Q They were all gone?
A I don’t know just how long it took.
Q You don’t know where these raiiarks - strike that, please:
You don’t know who made these vulgar remarks to which you have at
tributed -
A I do not.
Q - to some one during the course of your direct conversa
tion?
A I do not.
Q You do not?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 545A
A I do not.
Q Do you know tow many officers were struck by anything?
A I have no record on that.
Q You never did see any person seek to lay a hand on any
officer, ddyou?
A I did not.
Q Nor .have you even had any report that any person sought
to lay a hand on any of the officers who were up and down the street
that night, have you?
A
Q
A
Q
A
No one tried to put their hands on than, no.
Nothing hit you, did it?
I ducked or it would have.
You don’t know what It was?
It was a bottle and I hollered for the man behind me to
duck.
Q Which way was It caning from?
A It was coming from the southeast direction. I was walking
south on Jackson Street and it came out of a crowd of colored people
that was on the west - correction - on the east sidewalk of Jackson
Street, when it came over and the light hit the bottle and I ducked
and hollered for the people behind me to duck.
Q Mow, at that particular time, you say it came from a
crowd of people?
A That’s correct.
Q Of whom, at least the front of the line as far as you
could, see were Negroes, but you are not in a position to testify
that everybody in that crowd was Negro, are you?
A Everything I seen was Negroes.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 546a
Q Everything you saw?
A That's right.
Q. Eut you couldn't say that that was all that was there?
A No9 I couldn't say that.
Q You didn't have any occasion to have anybody to go and
count the number of bottles or fragments of bottles or rocks in the
street at any time, did you?
A Did not.
Q And as far as you know, nobody in the Department did
tills, did they?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Is it not true, Captain Friend, that this bottle to
which you made reference came from the general direction that this
rock that hit Officer Hill came .from, didn't it? You were moving
to the south on South Jackson along generally the right-hand side
and the bottle, you say, came from your left?
A Came from my left.
Q From your left?
A Yes.
Q And somewhere across the street in the general vicinity
opposite the theater, generally?
A Generally.
Q And so, you cannot Identify any person who threw any
thing, nor can you identify any person who made any remarks to any
officer who was on duty on that particular occasion?
A That's correct.
Q Was there - strike that please, Mr. Joiner — When the
officers moved on down the street on that occasion, the crowd
cn
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 5 4 7 A
gradually thinned on out and they were dispersed by the officers, is
that true?
A That’s true. They were moving ahead of the officers.
Q About how long were you in the — excuse me, let me ask
this question Instead right there: Where did you first join the
line?
A At Oglethorpe and Jackson Street,
Q Did you continue to walk in a southerly direction?
A I did.
Q Did you stop at any time?
A I did.
Q How many times would you suggest that you stopped? In
tne progress of walking ~ excuse me - in the progress of walking
south?
A I was not .In the actual line-up. The Chief had lined
all the men up. I went - I was changing positions, and the only time
I stopped was when I seen a young colored gild pick up a bottle, and
I started toward her and she dropped the bottle end ran in the crowd
and I got back into the line.
Q And you continued on to the south?
A And I continued on the south,
Q Now, how long was it from the time tint you started
at Oglethorpe before you arrived at South Jackson, a matter of 2 or
minutes?
A It wasn’t very long, just slow walk; just how ever long
it took to walk down there.
Q And the group generally was moving on as you were moving
on?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 548 a
A Well, the main body of the group was moving south. There
was still on both sides, on both sidewalks, there were still small
groups scattered; tut the main body of the demonstrators were moving
ahead Of the officers.
Q Now, isn’t it true that the demonstrators, so called,
had already been arrested?
A On the march?
Q Yes; so you mean when you refer to demonstrators on this
occasion, you mean the people who were along the side of the streets
after the folk who had been marching had been arrested?
A That's true.
Q What time or how long did it take you then to generally
disperse this group?
A To the best of my recollection it was probably 12:30
before things got back quiet.
Q You're not answering my question, sir?
A Repeat your question.
Q Let me ask it again: When you got to Highland, did you
continue on south?
A No.
Q You stopped at that point?
A That's correct.
Q So then, under your testimony, the crowd, it took you
about 3 to 5 minutes to get from Oglethorpe to Highland, and the
crowd was moving generally south, and there were sane snail groups
that were still along the sides, but the major portion of the crowds
on the right and left sides of the street had moved on to thewsouth;
that is your statement?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 549 A
A That’s correct.
Q And that is correct, is it not?
A That * s correct.
Q Now, why did you not go south of Highland?
A Well, I was taking orders from Chief Pritchett; and when
we stopped, he advised us to go back up, and that’s when I turned
around and came back.
Q So that, the crowd had moved on further to the south from
that point and there was no necessity to continue to follow that
crowd, was there?
A Well, I didn’t question whether there was necessity or
not. The Chief advised us to turn around and I turned around.
Q Did the Chief turn around at that time too?
A He did.
Q But you generally patrolled in the area up until about
12 o’clock, but this major crowd, to which you made reference, had
already moved on to the south and dispersed; that is correct, is it
not?
A It was after* 12:00; it was probably 12:30.
Q Excuse me, say that again; I didn’t hear you?
A It was probably 12:30 by the tine that the bigger groups
who had congregated had dispersed to where it looked normal.
Q You never did move south of Highland, however, in the
process of your walking from Oglethorpe to Highland; that’s your
testimony?
A That’s correct.
Q And that was the point at which you and the Chief turned
around, by your* testimony - correct?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 72? 550A
A I believe that’s correct.
Q Mr. Friend, let me call your attention to just one more
matter: You have ted the occasion to mate arrests of persons of
Negro extraction in the ^railways Station, haven’t you?
A I've never trade —
MR. RAWLS: Now, Your Honor please, unless he would
define the operations, this man has been on the police force
for 12 years and just to ask him if he's ever had occasion to
arrest Negroes is not proper.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. HOLLOWELL: I will specify it, Your Honor. I will
specify It right briefly.
Q Calling your attention to November 22, *61, did you not
have the occasion to arrest Blanton Kail in the Station, that is
the Trailways Station?
A That's correct.
Q Is that correct? Do you know what you arrested him for?
A I don't remember the charges.
Q Well, let me refer you to the record of the case of the
City of Albany v. Blanton Hall, before His Honor, Abner Israel, No
vember 7, 1961; and ask you to just read that statement there for a
moment and see if that refreshes your recollection (handing witness
copy of transcript) . . ?
MR. RAWLS: Your Hohor please, I take the position
that what he's bringing up here would be irrelevant and im
material.
THE COURT: I don't know yet; let's let him go a
little further and we'll see.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 551A
Q Mr. Hollowell: Now, would you want to state why you
arrested than or arrested M m ?
A His presence there, there was a large gathering of
colored as well as-white. As he came up this large group Of colored
people rushed to the windows and to the doors and it was causing a
disturbance.
Q What was he doing - excuse me?
A He lad been mingling in the crowd outside back and forth;
and as he came in, in my opinion, his presence there, had he been
allowed to stay there, there would have been disorder.
Q Did you not say that "he advised me he was not doing
anything disorderly” and then you said "I advised him that his pre
sence there was tending to create a disturbance and disrupt the peace
and if he didn't leave, I would arrest him” . . . This is as you
testified? -
A That's right.
Q And that’s all he was doing; he was just there, isn't
that right?
A That’s correct.
MR. RAWLS: Now, if Your Honor please, I move the
exclusion of this testimony, the question and the answer, on
the ground that it is irrelevant and immaterial.
THE COURT: I'm going to admit it.
Q Mr. Hollowell: Your answer was, that's correct, was it
not? I say your answer was, that’s correct?
A That’s right.
Q Do you recall what the charge was?
A I do not recall the charge.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 552A
MR. RAWLS: Your Honor, that would be a matter of
record in the Police Court dockets.
THE COURT: Well, he says he doesn't recall.
Q Mr. Hollowell: At the time this man was arrested, all
that he had done is walk into the waiting room about 15 feet, isn't
that correct?
A That's correct„
Q I believe that's all.
MR. RAWLS: You may go down.
IT. B, L, UANIEY
13th witness called and sworn in
behalf of Plaintiffs, testified
DiPECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RAWLS:
Q Identify yourself there to the court reporter, please
Mr. Manley?
A Lt. B. L. Manley, detective with the Albany Police
Department.
Q Do you have a position with the Albany Police Department?
A Yes sir.
Q What is it?
A Detective, Lieutenant-Detective.
Q How long have you been on the Albany Police Department?
A 12 years this coming September.
Q Mr. Manley, did you have occasion on December 17, 1961
to be in the vicinity of Shiloh Church here in Albany?
A Yes sir
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary. Injunction No. 727 553A
Q What, if anything, did you observe with reference to any
of the Defendants in this case: Reverend Martin Luther King or
Dr. Anderson or Abernathy?
A On this particular occasion Captain Friend and myself
had been assigned as an escort to Reverend Martin Luther King and
Reverend Abernathy. On this particular day we went to the Shiloh
Church with Rev. Abernathy and Rev. King. We had been at the Church
several hours that particular day, when we were notified — -
Q What had been going on inside of the Church on that date?
A There had been a meeting going on, on trie inside of the
Church with the different speakers. I can’t identify the speakers
that were speaking. And they were singing.
Q What was the type of attendance? Was it a large crowd,
or medium crowd or small crowd?
A The church was completely packed. There were people all
around on the outside of the Church.
Q Talking about both churches or just one?
A No, it was just the Shiloh Church. They were out into
the outside in front of the Shiloh Church and also standing across
the streets on all four corners, in other words.
Q Who all did you hear speaking to the crowd there?
A I can’t identify any one that I could say positively
was speaking at the church.
Q You can’t recognize, you didn’t recognize anybody’s voice
who was speaking or didn’t see anybody?
A I couldn't see. The windows were partially down and I
couldn’t see who was speaking.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 554 a
Q Now, what happened shortly before 6 o ’clock that after
noon with reference to Dr. King and Dr. Abernathy?
A Shortly before 6 o'clock, we were advised by sane reporters
that had cane out of the side of the church that they were getting
ready to leave the church, that they were getting ready, they said,
to march from the march. We went from the side of the church, that
was on the west side of the church, around to the front and just about
the time we got to the front, Rev. King and Dr. Anderson ccme out the
front of the church, followed by Rev. Abernathy and Dr. Anderson’s
wife.
They stood there on the steps of the church, I would say,
approximately 5 or 10 minutes, and then they walked off ccming - going
east on Whitney Avenue until they got to Jackson Street, turning north
on Jackson Street coming towards tom. I was walking to the right
side of Rev. King and Captain Friend was walking to the left side of
Dr. Anderson, caning up from the church there on Whitney and Jackson
Street.
As we were coming from the church this particular group
were met by others on the sidewalk and they were asked by the leaders,
Dr. Anderson, Rev. King and Rev. Abernathy, were asked to join in this
group. There were other people along the street asking them where they
were and they told them they were going to the City Hall to pray. And
they were asked to join in this group.
As we proceeded up, along about the time that we got to
Giles Super Market, that’s in the 300 block of South Jackson, we
started running into a few white people that were there in front of
Giles Super Market, standing in the doorways and out in. front. They
had sane selling stuff on the outside and sane white people there.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 555A
Rev. King was saying "Hit me first"i "Strike me first".
Q To whom was he talking?
A He would be walking but he was saying that in
a loud enough voice that I could hear him but he would be -
I took it to be directed to the white people that were standing
along the side of the street, because after we crossed Highland
Avenue, he didn't start saying those words again until we got to
more white people that were standing along in front of the Bus Station.
Q To your knowledge, had you or anybody else made any ges
ture or any attempt towards striking Rev. Martin Luther King?
A No sir.
Q So, just go ahead now, after that?
A At the time, by the;,time we passed in front of the bus
station, we were met by Chief Pritchett there at the corner of
Oglethorpe and Jackson Street, where he stopped this group and asked
than if they had a permit to parade or where they were going.
Q Before you get to that, Mr, Manley, had the group that
was being led by Dr. King and Dr. Abernathy crossed any street inter
sections that were guarded by automatic light signals?
A Yes, sir, we crossed Highland Avenue at Highland and
Jackson Street. 'When we got to that particular intersection, the
light was green for us to go across, the front part of it was green
for us to go across. As we went across the street, the light changed
several times. I was looking back, looking all around in fact, look
ing back, and the procession kept coming through those red lights and
green lights also there in the street.
There was traffic at Highland Avenue, through traffic,
east-west traffic on Highland Avenue at the time that we went across
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 556A
and at the time that the others in the group followed along, there
was traffic on those streets.
Q Now, let's move to July 21 of this year. Mr. Manley, tell
us what, if anything, you observed after escorting Dr. King to Shiloh
Church, arriving there around 9 o'clock in the evening?
A When we arrived at Shiloh Church, It was 9 o'clock in the
afternoon, and Rev. King got out of the automobile. He was brought
to the church in a car driven by Rev, Hardin, I believe Is M s name.
When he got out of the car there at the Shiloh Church, he was met by
a loud ovation there from the people In the street; the people outside
of the church hollering "Freedom" and singing; they started singing on
the outside. As he got out of the car he proceeded ~~
Q Would you estimate the size of that crowd, Mr. Manley?
A I would say that it was at least, from what I could see
there on the side of the church, there was 3- or 400 people right
there directly on the north side of that church.
Q Are you talking about In the church or outside of the
church?
A That was outside of the church.
Q Was the church full?
A Yes sir, the church was full and they were standing up
even in front and around the windows. You could see through the
windows people standing up all the way around inside of the church.
He got out of the ear and proceeded into the side door
of the Shiloh Church. As he was going through the crowd up on the steps
to go in, vie pulled off and cane from the Shiloh Church up to the Police
Department.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 557A
Q Did you come through the Harlem area?
A We came through the 2C0 block of South Jackson Street;
that iss we came up from the church up to Highland Avenue, turned to
the right on Highland in the 300 block of Highland and hit the 200
block oi South Jackson Street there at Highland and Jackson, and came
up to the Police Station.
Q What was the condition of traffic generally, of traffic
congestion, either pedestrian or vehicular, in that area there on
South Jackson just below Oglethorpe Avenue at the time the meeting
was going on in the church that Dr. King went to?
A Fran what I observed there were very few people in this
200 block of South Jackson Street, for it to have been Saturday right;
there were very few people on the streets or even any traffic in the
200 block of South Jackson Street that night,
Q Mir. Manley, now whan they would have these mass meetings
at these various churches, the church, you say, would be full and a
large group on the outside, and only a snail group would actually
engage in the organised march?
MR. HOIXOWELL: May it please the Court, I don't know
whether counsel is asking a question or testifying. I would
submit that he’s leading the witness in this statement.
MR. RAWLS: ; \ I was stating the preface for a question
I was fixing to ask the witness, Your Honor.
FIR. KOLLOWELL: I submit that this is his witness and
he would not be entitled to testify with any preface.
THE COURT: All right, let’s go ahead. Suppose you
rephea.se your question, Mir. Rawls; and allow him to complete
asking the question, Mr*. Hollowell, and then I will rule on
your objection.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 558a
Q Mr. Rawls: In the furtherance of your assignment
to afford coverage to Dr. King, did you notice what happened when a
march would start out from the church, relative to what people who were
not engaged in the actual march would do after the march started; that
is to say, whether they would stay at the church —
THE COURT: I think the question is clear and I think
anything further would be leading. Answer the question.
A. The Witness: Well, frcrn my observation, when they
would come out of the church, they would be met, of course, on the
street by other people that would be on the street and people coming
from the church, they would not only get in the procession and directly
behind the procession, but they would also be walking on the opposite
side of the street along about even with this same procession on the
other side of the street.
Q Mr. Rawls: Nov;, when you next observed the Harlem
area, after the marchers had moved out of the church on t M s particular
occasion, was there any congestion in that area?
A On t M s particular night on Saturday, we had been instructed
if Dr. King and Dr. Abernathy left the church, that Captain Friend and
I would be with them again. We got to the station this particular
night, Saturday night, and just as we got in the station we got a
report that they were leaving the church. Captain Friend and I went
back and got in the automobile and went to the 200 block of South
Jackson Street, and there at Highland Avenue and South Jackson we raet
the group that was coiling towards town. They were crossing the street
there at Highland and Jackson.
I noticed that the march was not being led by Rev. King
but Rev. Willis, Wills or Wells, m s leading t M s particular group.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 559A
As we turned around in the intersection, there whs a group walking
on the east side of the street, the east side of Jackson Street, in as
great a number I would say as there was behind following Doctor, I
mean Rev. Wells. This group, as we proceeded in the automobile along
the side of the group that was caning up frcm the church, the side
walks on both sides of us and behind us filled up completely. I mean,
there were people all over the sidewalks. The area between the side
walk and the street, the parkway, there were people completely walking
on both sides of the street up through the 200 block and also the 100
block of North Jackson Street.
When the group that was following Rev. Wills got to Ogle
thorpe Avenue, they proceeded on, on the east side - on the west side
of the sidewalk. Part of this group, all that followed him, went up
tine east side and the others that were not following in this march
walked to the east side of the street and come up the sidewalk on
the west side of Jackson Street in the 100 block. Tills group were
lined up thi.ck all the way from Broad Avenue to Oglethorpe Avenue as
the Rev. ’wills’ group was on the other side of the sidewalk.
Q Would you make an estimate of the crowd that assanbled in
that Harlem area there south of Oglethorpe immediately after the or
ganized march had passed by that was led by Wills?
A I would say that there ms at least 1500 to 2,000 or better
there in that area.
Q What was the demeanor or conduct of the people in that
crowd?
A Well, on this particular night, after we had got to Ogle
thorpe, I mean to Broad and Jackson Street, I got back in the patrol
car - we have a loud speaker on this patrol car - along with the loud
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 560A
speaker and the help of the other officers walking on the street, we
moved the people back that were on the sidewalk, on the Jackson Street
sidewalk, on the east side of the street; we moved them back down
across Oglethorpe Avenue, The officers were walking and I was talking
over this loud speaker.
Several times from Broad Avenue until we got to Oglethorpe
Avenue, when I would say something over the .loud speaker, there would
be something coming from the crowds, they’d. be saying "kiss my ass'®
or!,go to hell, you white son-of-a-bitch", "there’s that God-damn
detective hollering again". And this went on all the way until we
crossed Oglethorpe Avenue. And after we got this particular group
back across Oglethorpe Avenue, there was cursing caning fran the other
side of Oglethorpe Avenue. They were directing remarks, "pale-faced
mother-fuckers", "pale-faced son-of-a-bitches", "God-damn detectives",
and things like that.
Q Now, to what race did the people constituting this group
belong;?
A They were of the colored race.
THE COURT: Right there, let’s take a recess at
this time until 2 o ’clock.
LUNCH RECESS: 12:37 PM to 2:00 PM - 8-2-62
MR. RAWLS:
THE COURT:
Q Mr. Rawls:
May I proceed, Your Honor.
Yes.
Mr. Manley, 1 believe we covered the
date of July 21 this year in your testimony before lunch. Now, are
there any incidents between the activities in December and July that
stand out in your mind with reference to activities of this Albany
Movement?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 5 6 IA
A Since last December, starting from possibly the first of
January up until around the first of June or July, each week, practically
each week since that time there has been a meeting, usually on Monday
night, the majority of the times they were on Monday night, at the
different churches in town. On 2 or 3 occasions I have been rocked at
the Shiloh Church.
Q Now, you say you’ve been rocked, what do you mean?
A After this December I have been assigned to be in the area
of these meetings -
Q By the Albany Movement?
A At the times the Albany Movement had a meeting, I have
been assigned by Chief Pritchett to be in. that area at these meetings.
On several occasions there were rocks and bottles thrown that hit the
automobile at the Shiloh Church; and on one occasion at the church at
the comer of South Jefferson and Cotton. That’s a new church they've
just remodeled there at that place.
THE COURT: Hit what automobile?
MR. RAWLS: How's that?
THE COURT: He said hit the automobile; hit what
automobile?
A 'The Witness: Hit the police car.
Q Mr. Rawls: Which you were traveling in?
A Which I was traveling in, yes sir. At the time of some
of these meetings, there would be two patrol cars there, the detectives’
car and the captain's and assistant chief's car; and both of these
automobiles have been hit by rocks and bottles.
Q "Were there any Agents of the FBI also assigned to these
meetings that you know of?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 562A
A I have seen them come by. I don’t know whether they were
assigned or whether they had been —
Q You don’t know what happened in connection with other
police officers who were in company with members of the Federal Bureau
of Investigation?
A No sir, I was out of t o m on that particular day.
Q Now Mr. Manley, I ’ll ask you, do you know anything about
what we term the July 24 incident that’s been testified about. Of
course, you haven’t been in here but tell us what you know concerning
the July 24 incident?
A Well, on this particular night, on July 24, we met Rev.
King, Rev. Abernathy and Dr. Anderson as they came into the city
limits this particular1 night. We had been instructed to ask than if
they would come by the City Hall prior to - when they got into town.
We came on to the City Hall and we left, after Rev. King and Anderson
and Abernathy had a meeting with the Chief, we left the City Hall and
we went down from there, frcm the City Hall, we went to Elliott’s
Funeral Heme. From there we —
Q Was Dr. King in company with you all?
A Dr. King, Rev. Abernathy, Anderson, Charlie Jones and I
believe Rev. King’s wife was along that night, was with them. They
went to Elliott’s Funeral Hone and they stayed there a short time and
they left Elliott’s Funeral Heme and walked frcm the funeral home
north on Jefferson Street up to the Mt. Olive - Mt. Zion Church, at
the corner of South Jefferson and Whitney.
Q Now, is there a church immediately across the street?
A. Immediately across the street frcm Shiloh Church is the
Mt. Zion Church
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 563A
Q What kind of congregation or aggregation of people were
present at the church that night?
A Both churches were full. Fran the view that we could get
from the outside, there was a congregation around the outside and
both churches, all the way from the side of the church out to the
street, on the sides, on both sides of the churches and in front of
the churches.
Q Was there a march originating from that place on that
particular evening?
A Yes sir.
Q Who led it?
A I do not know who the leader was. I did not know him.
Q How long after Rev. King went in to one or the other of
the churches before the march,the organized march, came out?
A Rev. King went into the Mt. Zion Church at approximately
9:15 that night. The first notification I had that a march was caning
was about 10:00 or 10:30 that night.
Q Now, do you know the approximate size or number of partici
pants in the organized march that actually marched as a group frcm
those two churches that night?
A Well, the group that I observed coming up through the two
and 100 block of South Jackson Streets, the group behind, immediately
behind, the one that was leading, they were very orderly except they
were singing -
Q You mean what we call the "organized marching group"?
A Yes sir, the organised marching group, I would say, were
very orderly.
Q Nov;, was there another group?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 564 a
A Well, I would say that the group immediately behind, it
seemed like there was a point there where a certain number of them
might have been in that particular group and the group following them
and across the street, they were in great numbers.
Q Now, I ’ll ask you, frcm your observation of these various
mass meetings and marches away from them, what was the general pattern
with reference to what the over-flow crowd did who were not involved
in the organized march?
A Well, I would say the group that were coming out of the
churches were in fairly good order; I mean they were singing, usually
the Freedom Song, Freedom, and the songs that they sung tliere in the
church; but the ones that would follow along immediately behind these
groups
Q Now, what
MR. H0LL0WEE1
his witness.
MR. RAWLS:
Now, may it please the Court, this is
MR HOT 1HOLLOWELL:
I know he’s ray witness.
Just a moment, if you don’t mind, I ’m
making my objection. This is his witness and I don't think he
has any more right to cut off his response that counsel for the
other side has the right to cut M m off.
THE COURT: Go ahead and complete your answer to the
question. Had you finished answering?
The Witness: Yes sir*.
Q Mr. Rawls: I ’m asking you what happened to the con
tingent of people who were on the outside and inside who didn’t par
ticipate in the march, in the organized march, what course of conduct
did they pursue, as far as you know and as far as you observed,
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 565A
immediately after the marchers, the organized marchers, the led group,
left the church area, what did the other people do and where did they
go?
A Well, from what I observed from the marches that I saw
coming out of the church, the groups on the outside were more or less
pushing them on, shouting encouragement to them very loud, shouting
encouragement to then* Sane in these groups would be calling on others
that had been on the outside to join them. The people that were mill
ing around on the outside, to me they didn't know anything more that
was going on, on the inside than I did. They were walking frcm one
side of the street to the other. And then, when the group would cone
out, they would join in or get on the side of them shouting encourage
ment to them.
Q Would they congregate at any other place that you know of?
MR* H0II/3WELL: Don't lead the witness, if it please
the court.
A The Witness: In reference to the marches, the only
place I saw any congregation would be right there in the immediate
area around the churches.
Q Mr. Rawls: Well now, immediately after these marches,
did you ever observe any crowd, large crowd, of colored people in the
Harlan District?
MR. HOLLCWELL: Mow, if it please the Court, I have two
objections: No. 1, "These marches” is much, much, much too
general, No. 1; and No. 2, I submit he's still seeking to lead
the witness. Ask him what he did observe.
THE COURT: As I understand it now, his question is
related to a particular area, whether he ever observed any
crowds in a particular area.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 5 6 6 a
MR. HOLLOWELL: I didn’t so understand It. He just
said "these marches" and there’s no certainty without specifi
cation.
THE COURT: As I talcs it then, the question relates
to any march; is that the intent of the question?
MR* RAWLS: That is,Your Honor. I had designated
the group that I was specifically referring to as the organized
marching group that carne out of the church and walked down the
sidewalk area; and then I was trying to find ait what, if any
thing, happened to the crowd that had been on the outside of
the church and the remaining people that stayed inside the
church. That’s what I ’m trying to find out. However, I evi
dently don’t know how to ask the witness the question. It’s
my fault. I ’m not blaming anybody except myself.
THE COURT: I understand. Allright, let’s see if
you can put it in such a way that it’s not leading and in such
a way that the witness will understand what it’s about. Maybe
you’ve just done it by the statement that you’ve made.
Q Mr. Rawls: Mr. Manley, do you understand tehat I
mean?
A Well, I ’m not positive; I think I do. The people that
were coming out of the church were more or less in order as they were
being directed by someone. The groups on the outside of the church,
that would fill out into the streets and across the street, as this
group was caning, out, would never particularly participate in the
march, but they would be on the side, to the side of them.
Q Well, where would they go on the side?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 567A
A They would follow this group that had been led, they would
follow them the same route when they left the church all the way up
until usually the point where they were stopped and arrested.
Q And then what, if anything, did they do or where did they
go? I ’m talking about this other crowd?
A Well, they were, on this particular occasion —
Q I ’m talking about this particular occasion?
A On the 24th, prior to the time that they came frcm the
Shiloh Church that night, up and through Harlem, the Harlem area, the
2- and 300 blocks of South Jackson Street, had been covered by myself
and other detectives to observe the crowds in those two blocks. There
were very few people in the business establishments or on the streets
in the 2- and 300 blocks prior to the time that this group came from
the church.
As this group left the church, when they hit Jackson
Street they filled out from Whitney Street on to both sides of the
street, in the sidewalk and out in the street, all the way up into
the 2- and 300 blocks of South Jackson Street. This group had came
from the general direction of the church. I observed them, myself in
the 2- and 300 blocks. There was nobody, no groups of people in those
two blocks just a few minutes prior to the time that they cane frcm
the 200 block or 300 block of Whitney.
Q Mr. Manley, immediately after the organized marchers, as
I refer to them, the ones that were being actually led, were walicing
on the sidewalk, immediately after they passed that area, what was
the conduct of the crowd that assembled that you've described as
assembling immediately afterwards?
A Well, the groups that were following along beside were
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 568a
very loud, they were shouting and hollering. Some of them were sing
ing. They were very boisterous ail the way up the street.
Q Were you in the contingent of police officers that ac
companied Chief Pritchett down there in order to disperse that crowd?
Were you in that group of officers?
A Yes sir. Prior to the time we went down, the loud
speaker that we have in the police ear, they tad been instructed to
break up frcm that particular intersection around that corner and go
on about their business. This was carried on approximately 30 to 45
minutes before the Chief ordered the men down into the Harlem area.
I went along with the other officers that went down through the Harlan
area that night.
Q You were a member of the contingent of officers that went
down to disperse than?
A Yes sir.
Q Now, did you observe anything about the conduct of those
people with reference to what was said to the police officers or their
conduct towards them in any way?
MR. HOLLOWSLL: If it please the Court, I don’t like to
interrupt counsel, but he continues to seek to lead this witness.
THE COURT: Yes, I think that’s leading. I don’t
know that it really does any great harm because It sinply ex
pedites it but I do sustain your objections. I think it is
leading and I suggest you reframe the question.
Q Me. Rawls: Did you observe anything concerning the
conduct of this group that you have described which had assembled
there on both sides of the sidewalk and emptying out into the street?
A Yes sir.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 569 A
Q What did you observe?
A The groups were there on both sides of the intersection
and out in the street; and Chief Pritchett ordered the Troopers and
police offleers that had been assembled there in the 1-- and 200 blocks
of North and South Jackson Street into the intersection of Oglethorpe
and South Jackson Street. He put three motorcycles, three motor men
leading this group down through the street.
As we approached there in front of the Bus Station, I was
not in the line of men, I was working from the outside of than to the
inside of the other side of the men that were walking. The uniform
troopers, I was working fron one side of the street to the other, in
the street beside tie troopers.
About half-way the men, I would say approximately half
of them had got down in front of the bus station and there was a solid
wall of them from the Highland Avenue alley as far as I could see at
that time down to Highland Avenue. There was a half a block, the
sidewalks were completely full, the streets were completely full.
As we got to the Highland Avenue Alley, there was bottles
and rocks thrown from the mouth of the alley, coming from the alley
out into the street. They were hitting the pavement beside us, they
were falling between these two lines of people, the two lines of
Troopers, as we walked down through there. The people from the sides,
they were continuously cursing, calling us "pale-face son-of-a-bitches,"
"there’s them mother-fuckers", "there’s a bunch of Chief Pritchett’s
mother~fucking army", all the way. There were occasions when they
would run fron the sidewalk, as they would disperse from the street,
they would fill back over into the sidewalk, slowly moving south, even
on the sidewalk
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 570A
There were taxicabs and automobiles parked along the
street. They x«?ere continually running out and cursing, throwing stuff
from between these cars; and on 2 or 3 occasions I did see them spit
from behind the cars and they would run back into the crowd, and throw
their rocks and bottles and run back into the groups on the sidewalk.
Q Do you know race of people were doing the things that
you’re talking about, what race they belonged to?
A They belonged to the colored race.
MR. RAWLS: He’s with you.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. HOLLCWELL:
Q Lt. Manley, do you know how long Rev. King was in jail
from the time lie was first arrested in December until the time he was
released?
A It was approximately 6 o'clock on Decanber 17 that he was
arrested. He was taken to Americus; he was returned from Amerieus on
the following Monday.
Q Was there any time from this time and this date that you
have just mentioned until the following Monday, did you say?
A The following Monday, from that December 17 until the
following Monday.
Q How many days m s that? Was it mere than one?
A He was put in the Sumter County jail, I would imagine,
around 8 o'clock Saturday night and he was taken back out again Monday
Morning around 7 o ’clock. That was all night Saturday night, Sunday
and Sunday night.
Q He wasn't out of custody of the police during any of that
time, was he?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 571A
A No, there was uniform officer of the Police Department
there in the Gbunty jail at Americus.
Q Now, on this march that you say you observed which was led
by Rev. King on that date, did you walk right along by the side and at
the head of it from the time it left Whitney and Jefferson until the
time that it reached the alley going into the jail?
A That *s correct,
Q You were right with the head of it all the way up?
A All the way up from the church. We picked it up; in other
words, right in the immediate area of the church there was, I would say,
50 to 75 cameramen and newspapermen, and as they filled out on the
sidewalk we fell right in beside them when they got on the sidewalk.
Q .And this is where you were all the time?
A Yes.
Q You were there at the time that Dr, King was stopped by
the Chief?
A That's correct.
Q And you were there ail of the other time as it moved
right straight along?
A All the way Into the police station.
Q Who vas with you?
A Captain Friend was with me.
Q Anybody else?
A Now, after we were stopped by Chief Pritchett, there were
others joined in, yes; but prior to that —
Q You were still with Captain Friend?
A That's correct.
Q How far in front of the line were you?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 572A
A I was staying right side by side with them practically
all the time. I mean I may have been a few feet behind it or in
front of it at different times.
Q Did you march on the right or the left side of the line?
A I was on the right side.
Q On the right side of the line?
A I was on the right side of Rev. King.
Q On the right side of Rev. King?
A Yes.
Q All the m y up?
A All the way.
Q A M this is where you were all of the time, is that
correct?
A That’s correct. I was on the right side of him, either
possibly right in back or right in front of him and to his right all
the time.
Q Well, let me show you D-»l and ask you to look at it and
see if this is what you recollect of the M a d of the particular line
that you were talking about; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q Now, would you point yourself out on that photograph?
A Being as I can’t see myself, I ’m of the opinion that this
is me right back here (pointing on D~l), right behind this officer
right here.
Q Which one are you talking about?
A This one right directly behind this one right here
(pointing on D-l)
Q Right here?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 573A
A Yes.
Q About the first, second, third - about the third couple
behind the head of the line?
A No, I wouldn’t say that.
Q I mean, you’re not in front of Rev. King, are you?
A I am directly to his right.
Q I mean, do you see yourself to his right?
A I take this person to be right behind him to be me. I
can’t see it but that is to his right and maybe to the back of him a
little bit. I know not at which angle this picture was made.
Q Well, let me ask you this*. This isn't you - let the
record show I am pointing at the second couple, the first couple
behind Rev. King - now, that isn’t you, that’s Rev. Abernathy, isn’t
it?
A That's correct.
Q And that’s Mrs. Anderson?
A That’s correct,
Q To M s left, isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q Now, you don’t show on this photograph in front of Rev.
King or Rev. Abernathy, do you?
A I ’m not even sure that I show there. I take it to be
right behind this officer (pointing on photograph D-l). . ,
Q You wouldn’t say that that is you, would you?
A Well, I can’t see it, I can’t say it is but I have no
idea which angle that was made from.
Q As far as you can see frcm this photograph, which is a
Police Department photograph for your information, you see the head
574 a
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727
of the line but you don't see yourself; is that correct?
A I can't see myself if that is me back there but I know
where I was at. I was there.
Q Now, on none of these so-called demonstrations that you
were accompanying at any time were any of the marchers, even though
they may have gotten up to 3- or 400, were any of them disorderly or
were any of them arrested other than being a part of the march, isn't
that true?
A I'm not sure exactly what you’re referring to there,
"others arrested".
Q I say, at no time during any of the so-called demonstrations
that you accompanied or saw, was there anybody in the line of march
arrested other than for being a part of the march?
A Not arrested by me, no.
Q You haven't even seen anybody arrested who vas a part of
the march, other than by following along in front of the persons who
were in front of them, other than the leader, of course?
A I have heard of other people being arrested that were in
the area.
Q No, that isn't what I'm talking about in the area; I said
in the group of marchers who were arrested at any time, there was no
time that you or anyone else that you know of arrested any of the folk
who were in the line of inarch, except pursuant to their being a part
of the march itself?
A Well now, if you’re referring when we went down through
the 200 block of South Jackson Street on the 24th, we were ordered to
stay in that line and not break it; otherwise, there would have been
sane arrests
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 575 A
Q I ’m not talking about any speculation of any category,
other than the people who have been arrested for march; I am trying
to ask you, have you ever arrested any of those who were marching for
anything other than, just being a part of the marching group?
A At that time, no.
Q 1 mean, at any time?
A I don’t quite get It, I don’t think. I mean I don’t
quite get your question there.
Q Well, it’s simple, Mr. Manley -
THE COURT: I think the difficulty is, Fir. Hollowell,
I think you’re sincere in your question and he’s sincere in the
answer, but I think the difficulty is because of the breadth
of your question. Seme people who were in the march might leave
at seme other time been arrested for something else. I think
that’s what’s bothering him.
MR, HOT,TDWELT,; 1 don’t think that there’s anything that
would suggest it, but I will rephrase it, Your Honor. I will
rephrase it. I think I can handle It this way.
THE COURT: Suppose you do.
Q Mr. Hollowell: You never have arrested or seen any of
the marchers arrested, while in the process of marching, except for
being a part of the marching group?
A No, I never have.
Q Nor have you seen anybody arrest any of them, other than
for being a part of the marching group, have you?
A At that particular time, no.
Q As a matter of fact, you never have had the occasion to
have any of those who were arrested in any of the so-called marches
for being disorderly in making any vulgar statements or in throwing
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 576a
anything at any of the officers, have you, of the group marching as
you say, demonstrating as such and who were arrested as a group by
virtue of their marching?
A I will say that I have never seen anybody of the groups
that were arrested, I have never heard then using any cursing or
throwing anything from the group that was arrested.
Q All right now - and that would include all of these
Defendants, would it not?
A In different times, yes.
Q Now, it's your testimony that ordinarily when the folk
came out of the churches, you indicated that the leaders were very
orderly and that those who would came on out of the church and get in
the line behind them were always fairly orderly; this was your testimony,
was it not?
A That!s correct.
Q Now, on the night of the 24th of July, 1962 - excuse me,
strike e that and let’s go back to the 21st - On the night of the 21st
of July, 1962, you didn’t see Rev. King or Rev. Abernathy or any of
these Defendants, including Wyatt Walker, after about 9 o ’clock, when
you saw Rev. King at - where was it - Elliott’s? No, this wasn’t the
21st when you saw him - that was the 24th when you saw him at
Elliott’s, wasn’t it?
A Yes
Q You didn’t see him on the 21st at all, did you?
A I carried him from Dr. .Anderson’s or was following him
fi’om Dr. Anderson’s house to the Shiloh Church,
Q On what night?
A That m s on Saturday night, the 21st.
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 577 A
Q The 21st, what time was that?
A It was shortly before 9 o'clock that night; the exact
minute, I don’t recall but it was shortly before 9 o'clock, Rev.
Harding came out of the house and told us they were going to the
church, going to the Shiloh Church. Just a few minutes after he
came out, in fact he never did go back in the house, Rev. King came
out of the house, got in the car with Rev. Harding and they drove
directly frcm Dr. Anderson’s house to the Shiloh Church.
Q Did you see where Dr. King went?
A He went into the side door of the church.
Q Did you see where he went from there?
A I didn't see where he went after he got up on the steps
going in the door.
Q So, you don't know what he did or where he went, from the
time that he first put M s foot on the steps?
A No, I have no idea.
Q Did you see Dr. Anderson that night?
A No; no, I didn’t see Dr. Anderson.
Q Did you see Rev. Wyatt Walker?
A Mo, not at the church.
Q Did you see any of the Defendants on that night, other
than you say you saw Rev. King?
A That \tfas Saturday night?
Q That's correct?
A Saturday night, he's the only one that I recall seeing.
Q And so, of course, if you didn’t see them, you didn't have
any occasion to observe any of their conduct, because you didn't see
them, right?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 578 a
A I didn’t see them.
Q Now, you said there were sane few cat-calls and so forth
that were made by certain people on the night of the 21st, but there
wasn’t anybody making any such statements that you could identify as
having been a part of the group at the church, was there?
A I took it ~ in my opinion, they ccme from the church.
Q I mean, you’re not answering my question; I said, there
wasn’t anybody from which one of these menacing vulgar statements
that you have mentioned, that you can identify as having been at the
church? Not one, is there, yes or no, sir?
Q Individually, no.
Q Now, the same is true of the night of the 24th, there is
not one person that you can identify as being a part of the non-
arrested group that you know, as a matter of fact, was at the church,
is there; not one that you can name?
A Not one that I can identify, no.
Q Now, on the night of the 24th, I believe you said there
were some arrests made of maybe 140 or 160 folk, is that right?
A I didn’t give the number that were there.
Q You didn’t give any number; actually it was about 40 people
arrested that night, wasn’t there?
A I can’t give you the exact number.
Q You don’t know, but you know there was a group arrested?
A There was a group arrested.
Q A M there was nothing disorderly about that group that
were arrested? Was there?
A Fran the immediate group, no. There were people running
from this group across the street, trying to get others to join them;
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 579A
same were falling out and falling in but no great disorder frcm the
group that was actually following the leader.
Q Now, during the subsequent time when the group had been
arrested on the 24th, where were you? Let me say, at the time of
arrest, where were you?
A At the time of arrest on the 24th, I was in the 100 block
of South Jackson Street.
Q The 100 block of South Jackson is where?
A That’s between Broad and Oglethorpe Avenue.
Q Were you near the head of the line up there when they
were arrested or near the rear?
A I was near the rear.
Q You were near the rear; did you accompany than to jail?
A No, I followed than along in the automobile, I m s in
the detectives’ car, I followed along behind than until they stopped
and then they were led on. I did not follow than on to the police
station.
Q Where did you go then?
A I stayed in that block, 100 block of South Jackson be
tween Broad and Oglethorpe and down to Oglethorpe and Jackson.
Q You went back and forth up the street in your1 automobile?
A That’s correct.
Q How many times would you suggest that you went back and
forth up that street in your automobile frcm the time of the arrest,
until the time that you actually left the area?
A Well, that would be hard to say. I made, I would say, at
least two trips up, using the loud speaker on the car trying to move
the people back down across Oglethorpe. I not only was in that block
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 580A
during that time, from the time they were arrested until the time
we left that Harlem area that night, but I was around on Pine Street,
Broad Street and up and down.
Q You were circling?
A Circling up in the downtown area.
Q All right now, when you went, after the arrests and you
went back down South Jackson, were you in front of or behind the
line of officers who were lined along each side of South Jackson
Street?
A As we went down through South Jackson?
Q Yes?
A I m s on either the right or left side of both columns of
officers going down through there.
Q Were you driving ..at that time?
A No, I was walking.
Q Oh, you were walking?
A I was on foot at that time.
Q I see, and the people were moving on generally toward
the south?
A That’s correct.
Q A M were dispersing generally south, southwest, southeast?
A That Is correct.
Q Away from Scuth Jackson Street?
A H a t is correct.
Q And how many walking trips did you make - when did you
get on foot?
A Well, I was on foot standing at the intersection for
quite some time
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727
Q Which intersection?
A At Oglethorpe and Jackson. That was prior to the time
we started walking.
Q When you say "started walking", you mean prior to the
time that you started walking south?
A That is correct.
Q On Jackson Street?
A I had been at that intersection, I would say, probably 1
or 20 or 30 minutes.
Q And then, when the Chief cane along- was the Chief al
ready down in that area or he came along?
A The Chief was in and out of that area.
Q In and out of that area, up and down that line?
A Yes.
Q Now, when you started down that way, how long had the
arrests been made?
A That’s when we started walking down?
Q Yes, when you started walking south from Oglethorpe?
A I would say those arrests had been made at least an hour
Q At least an hour when you started down?
A That’s right.
Q And this was when the Chief had gone into the area with
the three motorcycles in front of him?
A That is correct.
Q Now one last thing: Now, Mr. Manley, you attributed a
statement to Dr-. King as he was walking along, do you remember that
there were sane reporters that were right there —
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 582A
MR. RAWLS: If Your Honor please, I object to him
showing this witness any clipping frcm any alleged newspaper,
unless it's first shown the newspaper that the alleged clip
ping was published in, and also the reduction of the reporter
who gathered the news that went into that. I object to him using
that in connection with the cross examination of this witness,
because it’s not fail’ to the witness to take a little piece of
printed paper and ask him questions relative to statements made
in that paper, unless the authenticity of the document is proved.
THE COURT: Of course, I will not allow the document
itself to be introduced in evidence without such identification.
I take it that what he intends to do is to ask him to read some
thing there and ask him Is that a correct statement of what
happened; and I will allow that. I overrule the objection.
MR. RAWLS: I object to him reading that in the
record, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I ’m not going to allow him to read it in
the record,
MR. HOLLQWELL: We have no intention of doing that and
haven't in the past, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I overrule the objection.
Q Mr. Hollowell: I would ask you to read D-8 here, that
section right in there (pointing) under that sub-title "Strike me
first", and see If your recollection isn't refreshed as to whom the
particular statements you made were made by (handing newspaper clip
ping D-8 to witness)?
A (Witness reading newspaper clipping) . . . I have read
that; now, ask the question again and let's see if I get it right.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 583A
Q Now, my question is, the statement which you
attributed to Dr. King, as you were coming along the line
of march, was not actually made by him at all; it was
actually made by Dr. Anderson, as this shows; isn't that
correct?
A No, the statements were made by Rev. King also.
Q You say that both made those statements?
A I am positive both made those statements.
Q Now, would you say where they were and to whom
and when?
A They were - the first time that I recall them
saying about "strike me first", was in front of Giles
Super Market. That's at the corner of Highland and Jackson.
The next time that I recall them making those statements
again was in front of the Bus Station, and both times
there were white people standing on the side of the street
at that time, on the side of the sidewalk at that time.
Q Now, you were marching in the same relative
position that you had been all of the time, weren't you?
A That's correct.
Q So, that meant that you were at least three
persons behind where Dr. King was; is that correct?
A No, I would say that there was very little
time between the time we left the church and the time we
got to the jail that I couldn't have put my hand on him.
Q But you couldn't have put your hand on him in
D-l, could you?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 584 a
A Well, like I told you, I'm not sure that
that's me standing back there; but with reference to that
picture, I don't know how close or how far away that picture
was taken. I said not at all times but the majority of the
time I could have put my hand on him, because I had a patrol
car riding right next to us for that purpose, if I had to
put my hand on him to put him in the patrol.
Q But you were never in front of him?
A I may have had a step or two in front of him
or a step or two behind him.
Q, But you weren’t in front - you said you were
in the same relative position all of the time; and so
you were never in front of him?
A In other words, the times that I might have
fell back Is when newspapermen and cameramen were getting
in the way, I may have had to step to one side or push
them to one side, and there might have been a step or two
separating us further at that time.
Q You know Mr. Vic Smith, don’t you?
A That’s correct.
Q Where was he? Did you see him?
A Coming up - I couldn’t say.
Q You don’t remember, but there were many reporters
around the head of that line, weren’t there?
A That’s correct.
Q You are familiar with the 200 block and the 300
block of South Jackson, aren’t you?
A That *s correct.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 585A
Q And this is generally a rather congested area,
is it, generally?
A
Q
At times.
It is generally construed to be a somewhat
congested area, isn’t that true?
A No, not at all times, no.
Q But most of the time it's very congested?
A No, I wouldn't say the majority of the time
it is congested.
Q What time - would you say it is not congested
on a Saturday night? It Is, as a matter of fact, a very
congested area on a Saturday night, isn't that true?
A Normally, on Saturday night, It is quite congested
Q Did you have the occasion to go into any of the
businesses along the 200 and 300 blocks on South Jackson on
Saturday Night, the 21st?
A Go into any of them, no.
Q How about on the 24th?
A Directly into any of then, no.
Q You never did go into any of then?
A No, but I could see into sane of them, but
never went In them
Q You could see into some of them?
A Yes.
Q
A.
.hi
You couldn't see into all of them?
No.
Q You couldn't see upstairs in the doctors'
offices?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 5 8 6 a
A No, I couldn't see up there.
Q You couldn't see upstairs in the insurance
offices?
A Inside, I don’t recall looking up there.
Q And you couldn't see upstairs in Attorney King's
office?
A I was looking up but I don't recall -
Q But you couldn't see up in his office, could you?
A No, I couldn't see in his office.
Q You couldn't see how many people were in the
theater, could you?
A I couldn't see whether there was anybody in the
theater.
Q The show was open that night, wasn't it, on the
night of the 21st?
A I imagine it was. I couldn't say that It was
but I imagine it was.
Q It was also open on the night of the 24th, wasn't
it?
A I would imagine it would be, yes.
Q You weren't hit by anything out in the street
that night?
A No; no, I wasn't hit.
Q On the 21st or the 24th?
A No, I haven't been hit.
Q And on the occasions when you say that your
automobile, the automobile in which you were driving and had
something to hit up against it, did you make any report of it?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 587A
A I made reports to the Chief that it had been
hit, yes.
Q Did you make any written report?
A To the Chief?
Q Any written report to any one?
A No, no.
Q You didn't make any written report to anyone?
A No.
Q Did it damage the vehicle?
A There were damaged places on it, yes.
Q Well, don’t you have sane instructions that
whenever there's any damage to one of the City vehicles,
you’re supposed to make a written report of It? Isn’t that
true?
A To any damage of any extent, yes.
Q But you made no written report?
A Mo xitritten report, no.
MR. HOLLOWELL: We have no further questions.
THE COURT: All right, anything further
for this witness?
MR, RAWLS: Cane down Lt. Manley.
FIRE CHIEF E, B. MOODY
14th witness called and sworn in
behalf of Plaintiffs, testified
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RAWLS:
Q Mr. Moody, you're the Chief of the Albany Fire
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 588a
Department?
A That's correct, yes sir1.
Q Mr. Moody, have you been sworn as a witness?
A No sir (Vitness sworn) . • •
Q How long have you served in that capacity?
A Since 1957.
Q Prior to that time you were for a long time 1
Assistant Chief?
A Yes sir.
Q Chief, do you recall any incidents that happened
on the evening or night of July 24, with reference to calls
to the Fire Department?
A Yes sir.
Q Have you checked your records to see the number
of calls that were received from what is known as the
Harlem area south of Oglethorpe Avenue in the City?
A I have a record, here.
Q What does your record show about the number of
calls from, say 8 o'clock that night until midnight?
A On the 7-24 of 1962, from 10:28 PM to 12:11 AM,
the 25th, we received 8 false alarms south of Oglethorpe
Avenue.
Q Did all of them originate in what is known
as the Harlem area of the City, Chief?
A I would like to give you the location.
Q All right.
THE COURT: Answer that question and then
you can give the specific locations.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 5 8 9A
Q Mr. Rawls: Did all of those alarms origi
nate in what is known as the Harlem area, Chief?
A Not all of them.
Q How many of them did?
A Four of them.
Q How close to the Harlem area did the remaining
four originate?
A Just a few blocks.
Q What is the predominant race of people who live
in the area where these fire alarms came from?
A Colored.
Q Now, do you say that eight originated between
what hours, Chief? I didn't exactly get it.
A 10:26 PM, the 24th, to 12:11 AM, the 25th.
Q Were any of those genuine? Did you answer all
of the calls and were all of them false or were seme of them
genuine?
A We answered each call and each call was a false
alarm?
Q In you and your men getting to the locale of the
supposed fires, did you encounter any traffic difficulty?
A No, we did not.
Q Was there any congestion on the streets?
A Not to these locations.
Q Not to those locations?
A No.
MR. RAWLS: He's with you
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 590k
MR. HOLLOl'ffiLL: Now, if it please the Court, Mr.
King, who was indisposed earlier caused by the loss of
blood and weakened.
THE REPORTER: I can’t hear you.
MR. HOLKMELL: I ’m sorry. I say, Mr. King
because of the loss of blood frcm the incident, related
earlier he couldn’t participate; but he’s better now
and he will take the cross-examination of this witness.
THE COURT: I want to ask the witness one
or two questions before you start, Fir. King.
BY THE COURT:
Q Give for the purpose of the record - I gather
you have it there Chief - the specific locations from which
the false alarms came, in each instance to which you
referred?
A 7-24-62 at 10:28 PM, Box 213, at the corner of
Monroe and Lincoln Avenue.
Q Now, right there at that point, is that a
predominantly colored area of the city?
A Yes sir.
All right, go ahead with the next one?
7-24-62 at 11:34 PM, Box 23, Jefferson and
Q
A
Highland.
Q
A
Q
A
Is that a predominantly colored area?
There’s a white area just west of this location.
Just west of what location?
Jefferson and Highland. 7-24-62, 11:45 PM,
Box 24, Washington and Highland.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction* No. 727 591A
Q Go ahead and give the same information?
A That is a colored section.
7-24- 11:52 PM, Box 28, Monroe and Whitney,
colored section;
7-25-62, 12:00 midnight, Box 226, Jackson and
Lincoln. T h a t ’s a colored section.
7-25-62, 12:01 A,M», Box 214, Monroe and Newton
Road, colored section;
7-25-62, 12:03 A.M., Box 215, Madison and Gordon,
colored section;
7-25-62, 12:11 A.M., Box 26, Jackson and
Whitney, colored section.
Q Is that all of them?
A That's eight.
Q All right.
BY MR. RAWLS:
Q Mr. Moody, in going to and from the fire
station to afford protection to those various areas,
would your fire equipment traverse the area on Jackson
Street immediately south of Oglethorpe Avenue?
A In answering this box 24, when we responded to
it, I directed my equipment to turn and go back Washington
Street. Normally, they would have come around the block
and come through.
Q Why did you direct your equipment around this
Particular area, the business district of Harlem?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 592A
A Well, I come back through that area myself in
my car and it was congested area, and t h a t ’s why I figured
the reason that I sent them back the other way.
MR. RAWLS: H e ’s with you.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. C, B,, KING:
Q Mr. Moody, a moment ago you testified that
there were eight calls, I believe, on July 24; is that
correct?
A I said the night thereof and the early morning
of the 2 5th.
Q Then, this would include the 24th and 25th,
is that correct, sir; that Is, during the night season?
A Up until 12:11 A. M.
Q Right. Mr. Moody, do you know, as a matter of
fact, who made these calls?
A No, I do not.
Q Can you establish, Mr. Moody, by racial identity
the persons who made this call, or these calls?
A At 12:11 A.M. I can establish this box 26 -
MR. KING: If Your Honor please -
MR. RAWLS: If Your Honor please, he was
answering the question.
MR. KING: I think this is the kind of ques
tion put, Your Honor, which can be answered categorically
yes or no, and.he has the privilege of explaining.
THE COURT: I gathered he was about to
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 593A
Indicate the specific information about one and
then h e ‘ 1 1 give it to you about — I suggest that
he give it to you about each one.
MR. KING: If Your Honor would indulge
counsel, I would prefer that he give a categorical
yes or no, if it pleases the Court, and then he has
the privilege of explaining.
THE COURT: What you want is the information,
whether he can give you the racial identity of who
may have put in these false alarms; that's what you
want, isn't it?
MR. KING: Well, I wanted a categorical
response to the question put.
THE COURT: Let him respond to it - you
see, I have already asked him to put it in the
record the detail about each call; so, if he wants
to give it that way, you'll get the information the
same way, won't you? Isn't that true, Mr. King,
d o n ’t you get the information that way? He has
his card there.
MR. KING: This is a. conclusion which may or
may not be valid.
THE COURT: Maybe I don't understand the
significance of the way you want it.
MR. KING: Perhaps I could rephrase it,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right, go ahead.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 59kA
MR. KING: And avoid the necessity of
confusion.
THE COURT: You're entitled to the informa
tion. I was just trying to simplify it for both of you
and have him give it with regard to each one.
Q MR. ICING: I ask you, Mr. Moody, you as
a matter of fact cannot tell me whether the person was
white, or the persons presumably who made these calls, were
white or black, can you?
A l can on one particular call.
Q Then, your response is that on one of these
you caii establish the race of the person who made the call?
A The race of the person because they were at the
location.
Q Then, I take it that simply by virtue of
the person being there, this is the way that you determined
that this call was made by a certain person?
A I d i d n ’t accuse them of making the call.
Q Well, would you answer the question then?
Can you tell me whether any of these calls were made by
black people?
A I had no case to make against any one on these
calls.
Q Then, your response is that you d o n ’t know who
wade the calls, is that right, Mr. Moody?
A I had no case to make against any one on these
calls.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 595A
Q Mr. Moody, you d i d n ’t answer the questionj
then, you d o n ’t know who made the calls, do you, sir?
A I do not.
Q As a matter of fact, Mr. Moody, you get a
number of these calls depending upon the season of the
year, is that right, say around Halloween time?
A We get a few false alarms during seasonable
times.
Q, But you d o n ’t know who made them, is that
right, sir?
A No.
Q As a matter of fact, Mr. Moody, there have been
occasions on which y o u ’ve had more than eight calls during
the night season, is that correct?
A No.
Q You have never had -
A Not in groups like that.
Q What do you mean by that, sir?
A This period of time from 10:28 to 12:11 A.M.
Q The question put, Mr. Moody, was whether during
the course of the night season y o u ’ve had more than eight
calls?
A No.
Q You've never had?
A Never have.
Q How long did you indicate that you had been
working with the Fire Department, sir?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 7 2 7 596a
A Been working with the Fire Department since 1 9 2 7 .
Q How long have you served in the capacity of
Chief of the Albany Fire Department?
A Since 1957.
Q Since 1957; then, your testimony goes to the
period from *57 to the present, is that correct?
A T h a t ’s correct.
Q No further questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
3Y MR. RAWLS:
Q Chief, of course, i t ’s a matter of calculation
but how much actual time elapsed between the commencing
hour and minute that you designated there and the closing
hour and minute? The opening is on July 24, the opening
time; that’s 1 0 — what?
A 10:28 P. M.
Q And your closing time of that period is when?
A 12:11 A. M.
Q T h a t ’s an hour and 43 minutes?
A Yes sir.
Q Now, how close is the 24th and 2 5th of July to
Halloween, do you know?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 597A
MR. HOLLOWELL: May it please the Court, I
submit that that would be purely irrelevant, Immaterial
and incompetent.
THE COURT: Yes, I sustain that.
MR. RAWLS: I'll withdraw the question,
Your Honor. I think that's a matter of calculation.
Q And, of course, July 4 had already passed?
A Yes sir.
THE COURT: All right, anything further from
this witness? . . . . You may go down,
MR. RAWLS: Your Honor, the Eire Chief
asks that he be excused and I assume that's all
right.
MR. HQLLOWELL: Yes.
MR. GEORGE F, JOHNSON
1 5 th witness called and sworn in
behalf of Plaintiffs, testified
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RAWLS:
Q Identify yourself to the court reporter, please,
Mr. Johnson?
A Patrolman George F. Johnson, Albany Police
Department.
Q How long h a - y o u been on the Albany Police
Department?
A 19 months.
Q Do you remember an occasion in July, 1962, when
you were on Highland Avenue Alley In Albany?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727
A I do.
Q Tell us what happened to you in connection
with your activities at that particular time and place?
A Well, Officer Wynn and myself were at what
we call the north call box, which is located on Highland
Avenue. I would say there was between 4- and 500 colored
people around us, had us more or less backed into the build
ing, the side of the building. We did make an attempt to
get up to the bus station, when all of the commotion was
going on but they w o u l d n ’t move. So, we backed up against
the building, and there was a couple of bottles throwed at
Q A couple of what?
A Bottles, pop bottles and also a couple of cans
Q Did anybody say anything to you?
A Yes sir.
Q What was aaid to you by an individual?
A One young colored boy, I would say about 20
years old, came up to me and said, as teed me could he go
to the bus station. I said "Yes, if you can get there."
He said, "Well we're going to cut any son-of~a-bitch that
S'-ts in our w a y ," I told him to go on home and behave
Himself. He stayed around a few minutes and finally he
left.
Q You d o n ’t remember the exact date in July that
that happened?
A July 21.
Q July 21?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 599A
A Yes.
Q Did you go with the Chief arid the other officers
down into the Harlem area on the night of July 24, in an
effort to disperse the group that had assembled there on
that occasion?
A I did.
Q Did you observe anything about the conduct of
the group who had gathered there? Do you have any estimate
as to the number that was in the group?
A I don't have any estimate as to what the number
was. I would say at least a couple of thousand, If not
more.
Q At least a couple of thousand?
A Yes.
Q Do you know the race of the people who consti
tuted that group?
A Colored,
Q Did you observe any conduct or any conversation
or any statement by anybody in that group aimed at the
officers or said to the officers?
A Yes sir, as we was marching down the street
someone in the crowd says, "Here comes the pale-faced
sons-of-blfcches now." And they called us "mother-fuckers"
and all kinds of names, vile names. Also, they would
d°dge in between cars and spit at us as were walking
along.
MR. RAWLS: He's with you.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Tn/function, No, 72? 6 o o a
MR. HOLLOW35LL: No questions.
THE COURT: You may go down,
MR. PRICE L. WESTBROOK
1 6 th witness called and sworn in
behalf of Plaintiffs, testified
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RAWLS:
Q Identify yourself to the court reporter there,
please Mr. Westbrook?
A Price L. Westbrook, one of the city detectives,
Albany Police Department.
Q How long have you been connected with the Albany
Police Department?
A Since September of 1936* with the exception of
three months.
THE CLERK: Were you sworn?
The Witness: No sir, I was not.
Q Mr. Rawls; Have you been sworn?
A No sir, I have not. (Witness sworn) . . .
Q What you have already stated is the truth,
1 presume?
A
0,
Yes sir.
Mr. Westbrook, on July 10 at approximately
9i30 in the evening, relate what happened when you were in
company with Sergeant Jeter and Agents of the Bureau —
MR. KING: Your Honor please, counsel
objects to this kind of leading question as h e ’s
propounding there. He's virtually indicating what
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 601A
he wants him to say, I think that it certainly can
he phrased in a different way without it being leading
as this was.
THE COURT: All right, suppose you attempt
to rephrase it to meet the objection.
Q Mr, Rawls: Mr, Westbrook, do you remember
the evening of July 10, 1 9 6 2 ?
A Yes sir, I do.
Q Who was with you and where were you on that
occasion?
A On July 10, Detective Sergeant Harold Jeter,
FBI Agent Bo 1 yard and -
Q What kind of Agent?
A FBI Agent.
Q Federal Bureau of Investigation Agent?
A Federal Bureau of Investigation Agents Bo1yard
and Marion Cheek and myself were at the corner of Whitney
and Jefferson;; and our reason for being there was observation.
We have always attended these meetings and stayed away from
the church, but as close as we possibly could. Our reasoning
for this, we wanted to observe the white people that happened
to be going by the church; we wanted to know what they were
doing and their reasons for being there.
On that particular night we were there, all
four of us were in the car. Myself and —
Q You and Mr. Jeter and the two FBI Agents?
A Yes sir.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 602A
Q, Were all in the same car?
A Yes sir. I was sitting under the steering wheel;
Detective Jeter was sitting on the right, and Agents Bolyard
and Cheek were in the back seat, when all of a sudden to
our right we heard a loud noise; and then, possibly a
second or two seconds after that, the vehicle we were in
was bombarded with rocks and bottles;and also a bottle
went over the car and landed out in the street.
Q Did anything happen to the dome light of another
police car that was in '-■hat area?
A Yes sir, we found out that the first noise we
heard was the dome or red light on the marked patrol car
was bu'sted out; and then approximately two seconds after
that, our car was hit.
Q Was your car hit by a stone or a bottle?
A It was hit by rocks and bottles. There were
five marks. We counted five marks on the vehicle. All
of them was in the rear.
Q Now Mr. Westbrook, up to now we've been talking
about July 10. Now, let's skip over to July 24; did anything
happen in connection with your police operations on that
particular night, that you recall?
A On July 24, sir?
Q Yes sir?
THE COURT; Before you leave the 10th,
let's find out where the bottles and stones came from,
if he knows.
H e a rin g on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 603A
Q Mr, Rawls: Do you know?
A To the best of ray knowledge, the rocks and
bottles and stones came from behind us. They are building
a service station on the northwest corner of Whitney and
Jefferson and we were parked up underneath the tree. We
saw across the street, when we heard the noise, the first
thing we did was shut the door and roll up the windows in
the event they threw some more; and then we all looked
behind us and we could see no one. Across the street I
could see a colored person pointing in the direction of
the service station and immediately behind the service
station and a little to its left is an alley. So, I assume
that it come from that direction.
Q Now, how close were you parked to any church,
where any meeting was going on?
A Just a little further from here to the back
of the courtroom, from where I am to the back of the courtroom,
Q Was there a meeting in progress In the church
at that time?
A Yes sir, there was.
Q Do you know anything about the size of the crowd
that was at the church?
A The inside of the church was full. I understand
they have a seating capacity of 6 5 0 . It was full, people
were standing around inside by the windows. There was
approximately 2- to 300 persons outside the church,
standing around, on the sidewalk, in the church grounds
and sitting on parked pars.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 6 o 4 a
Q Now, how far did you say you were parked away
from the side of that church?
A Approximately from here to the end of the court
room.
Q Would you estimate that in yards or feet?
A Just a rough estimate, I believe that particular
street is 36 feet wide, and it would be another approximate
ly 20 feet from the curbing to the church, approximately 20
feet from -2 0 or 30 feet from where we were at to the
curbing, I would estimate It 80 to 100 feet.
Q Mr. Westbrook, w e *11 move now to the night of
July 24: will you tell us of any incident that happened
to you In connection with your police duties on that par
ticular occasion?
A On July 24 we had a march. I am not sure
■just exactly what time the march was. We had a march and
our work was dispersing the people that were standing
around on the corners, standing around In the street; and
to protect the marchers as best we could. After the
marchers had been placed under arrest, I went down to the
intersection of Oglethorpe and Jackson, where we had
traffic blocked out; and there was quite a few other
officers there; and the crowd in Harlem began gathering
to where they were on the sidewalks and out in the
“'iiddle of the 200 block of South Jackson. Cars couldn't
S° in for the people standing around. And the crowd kept
on hunting up and mounting up and mounting up, until I
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 605A
would estimate it was somewhere between 2 - to 3 ,0 0 0 people,
were in Harlem at that time. We stood around —
Q Was that in the block of Jackson Street
immediately south of Oglethorpe Avenue?
A Yes sir.
Q All right go ahead?
A We just more or less stood around and tried
to observe. The motorcycle men kept the people moving on
the sidewalk, kept the traffic moving. We let no one in
that particular block. And during that time we could keep
on hearing noises from across the street, I'm nafe sure
just exactly what they said. It sounded like one time,
"Why don't you son-of-a-bitches come on over here on our
side?" But I'm not positively sure about that.
We stood around and then finally, Chief Pritchett,
he went into the crowd with 5 or 6 police officers; and he
come back —
Q What race of people constituted the crowd that
you referred to?
A. Colored people. That's all I could see.
Q Go ahead ?
A Chief Pritchett went Into the crowd with 5 or
̂or> 7 officers. I'm not sure how many; and he come back
he told them to bring the Troopers on; and we went into
tne crowd then. We lined up on each side of the street in
kw° lines and we started going down through Harlem to
disperse the crowd.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 7 2 7 6 0 6A
We had just gotten into Harlem good, I would
say I would be In front of the drug-store in the 200 block
of Oglethorpe - correction, 200 block of South Jackson -
when I heard someone say, "There's one of those God-damn
mother-fucking detectives.’1 I tried to pick him out of
the crowd but I was unable to.
We kept walking —
Q Do you know the color of the person who made
that statement?
A No sir, I do not for sure but when I looked,
the only thing I could see was colored people. I saw no
white person whatsoever.
Q Are you a member of the Detective Department?
A Yes sir, I am.
Q Go ahead?
A We kept walking and two bottles came over
from the east side of the street. Now, I saw both
bottles and I hollered, "Watch It". And both bottles
landed In the middle of the street. To my knowledte, no
one vras hit then.
We kept on walking and I would notice people,
someone go up close to cars or beside cars and then all of
a sudden they would run back; and at this particular time
T
Was 'bhe middle of the street, which would put me In
kbe middle of the two lines. I did not stay in one particu
ai> line, x was going from one side to the other side and
observing. And I heard one of the Troopers say, "Watch
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 607A
it, men* they’re spitting on us." I kept trying to watch
for that and I was unable to see any, but I did notice people
running up to the line that we were in and then go back.
We got down in the 300 block of South Jackson
and we stopped just before we got to the church or to
Whitney Alley, right directly in front of Whitney Alley.
I was in front of Giles Super Market when Trooper Hill got
hit. And all the time we were getting rocks and bottles
and we were cursed at for everything a person could possibly
think of. Chief Pritchett turned around and he said, "All
right, men, l e t ’s go back." We turned around and we started
walking back, and we were bombarded from the rear, because
I was walking backwards watching the rear of the line.
Q Bombarded from the rear with what, Mr. Westbrook?
A With bottles, and I could hear rocks. I could
not see the rocks. I could hear them after they hit and
see them bouncing around on the pavement. But we were
bombarded from the rear with bottles, and I told a group
of officers to turn around and watch behind them and walk
backwards, so they could see the bottles that were coming up.
I would estimate at one time there was 15 to 20 bottles
ln tlle area, all coming from the 300 block of Whitney -
correction, 300 block of South Jackson, in the vicinity
°f the church.
Q Did you see any members of any race in that area
e*cept the colored race?
A No sir, I did not. The only ones that were
white were the police officers.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, Ho. 727 60 8a
Q Were the business houses In Harlem closed on
account of that commotion or not?
A Yes sir, they were closed. We stopped on the
way back in the 200 block of South Jackson, and Chief
Pritchett broke the line and went to one whiskey store
and told them he wanted the place closed up. He come down
to another one and told them he wanted it closed up.
Q Mr, Westbrook, do you know whether the FBI,
the Federal Bureau of Investigation Agents Bill Bolyard and
Marion Cheek are in Albany at the present time?
A To my knowledge, they are, sir,
Q Do you know whether they're stationed at this
particular post?
A Yes sir, they are. Agent Bolyard Is in charge
of the Albany Division.
Q How do you pronounce that, Bolyard?
A Bolyard (pronouncing Bull-yard).
Q He's the agent in charge?
A He's the Agent in Charge of this divison.
Q I ask you whether or not they have an office
in ^Is building that this court Is being held in?
^ Yes sir, they do, on the second floor.
CROSS EXAMINATION
3Y MR. C, B. KING:
Q Mr. Westbrook, calling your attention to the
testimony with reference to July 10, 1962, I believe that
,/0U testified that at or about 9:30 you were In the area
f fcbe intersection of Jefferson and Whitney?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727
A That is correct.
Q Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Would you indicate exactly where your car was
parked?
A T h e r e ’s a service station being built on the
northwest c o m e r of Whitney and Jefferson. We had pulled
up underneath a tree in front of the service station. I
would say it would be approximately 20 to 30 feet actually
from the intersection of Whitney and Jefferson.
Q, Is this to indicate that your car was parked
parallel to Whitney Avenue?
A No, we were parked right In front of Jefferson
Street.
Q You were parked right in front?
A Right in front of Jefferson Street. We were
directly across the street from the back door of Shiloh
Church.
Q Then, your car was headed north and south?
A No, we were up on the service station ground,
where they were building the service station. We were not
iw the street.
Q What I ’m trying to establish, in what direction
Was head of your car or the front of your car headed?
A The car was heading east.
^ The car was heading east?
A Heading east.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727
q Then, your car was running parallel to Whitney
Avenue, is that correct, six-*?
A That's correct, approximately 20 to 30 feet
from Whitney. We were not directly beside it.
q I see. Then, you were up on what would
normally be the sidewalk, I take It?
A We were up on the service station lot, where
they were grading and getting the service station ready.
Q Then, you are saying also that you were toward
the rear, if a straight line was drawn in the direction
in which the front of your car was headed, you would be
toward the rear of the Shildhh Baptist Church, only on the
other side of the street?
A That is correct.
Q Is that correct?
A That Is correct.
Q Now, I believe you testified that in this
oar you had Mr, Bolyard, Mr. Cheek, yourself and Mr. Jeter
is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q Now, when did you first observe any missies
or, as you put it, the commencement of this bombardment
taking place?
A We were In the car talking. We had the doors
or open and all the windows down. We heard a noise to
0lJr right, a patrol car, a marked patrol car, was sitting
at the intersection of Whitney and Jefferson In the street
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 6 i i a
The patrol car was heading east, parked on Whitney. We heard
an unusal loud noise from that direct. Approximately one
to two seconds after that noise we heard our car getting
bombarded. The first thing I did was shut the door and let
up the window, so I w o u l d n 'g get hit.
Q, Now, do you know from what direction those
missiles came?
A They did not come from the front of the vehicle.
Q Then, this is to say that they did not come
from the side on which the church was situated, is that
correct, sir?
A They did not come from where the church was at.
Q Then, they came from obviously, as you have
deduced, from down the street on Whitney Avenue, is that
right?
A They came from the rear. Now, whether they
dame from directly behind us or from the side of us, I
do not know,
Q Then, I take it that the only affirmative
statement that you can make is that they did not come
from the direction of the church, is that correct?
A They did not come from the church.
Q You would also make the statement, would you
not, sir, that you do not know who threw those missiles,
that correct?
A I do not.
Fearing on Motion For Preliminary In junction, No. 727 612A
q Now, I ask you this, as a matter of fact, nobody
was injured as a result of this bombardment, is that correct?
A I would like to answer that question with an
explanation,
Q All right -
THE COURT: Answer it, give a definite
answer and then explain it.
A The Witness: No one was injured, In the
rear of the car there*s an indention which Is in there now
of approximately a half an inch, which was made by a stone
approximately this size (indicating), I got out and picked
the stone up myself. If that stone had been thrown -
Q Mr. King: I am not interested in the
'dtness1 speculation; I am interested only in what you
can attest to -
MR. RAWLS: Your Honor please, I think the
witness ought to be permitted to finish his answer
to the question.
THE COURT: Well, I will caution the witness
that he is not to speculate on what would have happened
If so and so and if so and so; but just recite the facts,
whatever the facts are.
A The Witness: No one was injured on that night,
to knowledge.
MR, RAWLS: May the witness finish his answer.
THE COURT: Oh yes, you go ahead and finish
your answer. The only purpose in stopping the witness
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 613A
was to caution him that he was not to speculate or
presume but just recite the facts. Go ahead and
complete your answer.
A The Witness: If the stone had been thrown —
MR, KING: If Your Honor pleases, I
believe the Court cautioned the witness that specula
tion was not proper, that we were interested only in
the facts.
THE COURT: T h a t ’s right. You will not
speculate about what would have happened if the
stone had been t h r o w in some other direction or
such as thatj but recite what did happen! not what
might have happened. Now, have you completed your
answer?
A The Witness: Yes sir.
THE COURT: All right.
Q Mr. King: I believe you further gave
testimony, Mr. Westbrook, with reference to the night of
July 24, and you indicated, I believe, that you were up
*n the 100 block of South Jackson Street earlier that
evening, that is during the time that the marchers were
being arrested?
A I would have to refresh my memory with other
notes, due to the fact that I was in so many places on that
t^icular night, that at that particular time 1 d o n ’t know
J'ust exactly where I was at.
gearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 6 i4 a
q Am I to understand, sir, that you cannot
distinguish the conduct of those persons who were arrested
from the milling mob that you speak of in the 200 block of
South Jackson Street?
A The persons that were arrested came across the
street. They went down on, I believe this group come down
the middle of the street. I am not sure. But I was either
in the 200 - in the 100 block of North Jackson or the 100
block of South Jackson. I was in that vicinity,
Q Did you observe those who were arrested?
A Only passing by.
Q Then, I take It that your testimony generally
does not go to the 40-something that were arrested?
A No sir, that was not my job. IVfcr job was to
keep people moving and not let no one stop.
Q In other words, I am simply attempting to
establish, Mr. Westbrook, whether you in any way came in
contact with those persons who were arrested in the 10 0
block?
A I did not.
Q Now, I believe that you said, however, that
were down in the 200 block of South Jackson Street, is
that correct?
A I did go down in the 200 block of South Jackson,
5j-s° the 300 block of South Jackson.
^ Now, I believe you testified as to the number
f P^sons who were there, is that correct?
learing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 615A
A I would estimate the crowd at approximately
2- to 3,000 people.
q How do you arrive at this estimate, sir?
A When I looked across the street, the only thing
I could see was people. I was unable to see the end of
Highland - correction - I was unable to see Highland Avenue
from Oglethorpe and Jackson. It was completely black.
Q It was completely black?
A Yes.
Q What does this testimony go to, sir, the
condition of the atmosphere?
A It does not. It goes that I could only see
colored people,
Q You aren't by any means attempting to suggest
that people who are definitely identifable as colored look
dl the same, are you, sir?
A Some of them look a little bit different from
others.
Q I see. Pursuing this just a bit further, are
you suggesting that you are able to recognize and otherwise
identify a Negro wherever you see him?
A I could not answer that yes or no.
^ Well, getting on with this testimony that you've
^Ven sir, you stated that you were called names;
re you able to identify the persons who called you these
names?
A I was not.
H e a r in g on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727
q Are you even able to identify them as to their
race?
A The only people I saw when I heard what I was
called was Negro people, colored people.
MR. KING: If it please the Court —
The Witness: I was not going to stop and
try to find out one person calling me one name, when
everybody else was hollering, shouting, screaming
and throwing bottles and everything else.
MR. KING: If Your Honor pleases, the
question put was whether or not he could establish
on the basis of race who made these vituperations
that h e ’s attesting to.
MR. RAWLS: Your Honor, he has a right to
explain his answer.
The Witness: I would like to answer with an
explanation, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes, suppose you give an answer
MR. RAWLS: Your Honor, if you*11 permit me
to make this statement, I contend that he answered
the question by the process of elimination.
T H E COURT: Well, I think so too; but
that’s a question that can be answered yes or no;
and so, suppose, Mr. Witness, you answer the question
yes or* no; and let what you have already said be by
way of explanation of your answer,
A The Witness I would answer the question,
yes, it came from someone of the colored race.
H e a r in g on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 617A
THE COURT*. All right.
Q Mr. King: How do you know that, sir?
A I saw no white people down there whatsoever,
other than police officers.
Q, Didn't you just a moment ago testify that
you would, not set yourself up as an authority to establish
the definite identification of the races of mankind?
A I have been wrong before, but when I am. In a
group of the colored people, where they are mixed up, I can
tell them, I can tell a colored person from a white person.
Now, X have been mistaken by, if the Court will excuse the
expression, by a "high yellow".
Q Whatever do you mean by that statement?
A Red down in Harlem, colored person they call "Red".
I have been mistaken about him.
Q I see. Then, I take it that as you have been
mistaken in that Instance, you do admit that you might well
be mistaken in others, is that correct, sir?
A I am not perfect.
Q Now, I believe that you testified a moment ago
that as you went down in this area you weaved back and forth
across the street, is that correct?
A I went from one side of the street to the other.
Q In your going to and fro across the street,
did you intermingle with the groups of people alledgedly
there?
A I did not. We had orders to stay in the line.
H earing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 6 i8 a
X was staying in between the lines. I was going from one
side, from the east side to the west side, inside the two
lines that we had.
Q Then, I take it that there were no persons
other than the officers who were inside the street?
A People kept running up in between cars. We
marched along outside the line of car*s, and people could
get in the street, the width of an automobile.
Q I believe you also testified that you were
not hit, is that correct, sir?
A I did not testify that I was hit. I did not
testify that I was not hit.
Q Were you hit, sir?
A A bottle hit at the bottom of my feet and
splattered on my pants.
Q Spattered on your pants?
A That is correct.
Q That was the extent of any contact that you had
with the missiles, is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q, Do you know of anybody else who was hit, of your
own knowledge?
A Trooper Claude Hill was standing approximately
3 or 4 feet from me when he got hit. I heard the lick.
Q Who else?
A I saw a bottle and also a rock bounce off of
a Motorcycle.
Hearong on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 619A
Q I want you to be responsive to the question,
sir. The question was, did you see anybody else get hit?
A Motor men on the motorcycle.
Q Did you say a motorcycle or somebody on a
motorcycle?
A Motormen on their motorcycles.
Q What's his name?
A At this time I wouldn't be able to tell you.
Q How long have you been with the Department, sir?
A Since '5 6 , with the exception of three months.
Q How many men are in the Department?
A I would have to guess at that. 60, 6l or 62,
I don't know.
Q As a matter of fact, you've worked on a desk,
is that correct, sir?
A T h a t 1s correct.
Q. Which job occasioned you coming in contact with
virtually all of the police department personnel, is that
correct, sir?
A That is correct.
Q And you can't identify who this particular
mounted officer was?
A I could not because I wasn't looking at him.
I was looking at bottles, rocks and anything else that was
coming in our direction.
Q Then, as a matter of fact, you don't know whether
^his man was hit or not, is that, sir? You didn't see
it then, did you?
620AHearing on Motion Per Preliminary Injunction, Mo. 727
A I saw the motorcycle get hit.
Q Oh, I believe you also testified that you heard
somebody say, "Watch out, men, they are spitting at us"?
A I heard some Trooper say that.
Q As a matter of fact, Officer, you didn't see
anybody spit on anybody, did you?
A I have not testified to that.
Q No further questions.
RECESS: 3:42 PM to 3:52 PM - 3-2-62
MR. R. G. WILLS
1 7 th witness called and 3worn in
behalf of Plaintiffs, testified
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RAWLS:
Q Identify yourself to the court reporter there,
Me. Wills? Tell the court reporter your name and occupation,
Mr. Wills, please sir?
A My name is Robert Gr*ady Wills, better known to
tne public as "Red" Wills; and known to the colored people
as "Big Red".
Q Are you a police officer of the City of Albany?
A I am, yes sir.
Q How long have you been?
A 1 5 years.
Q 1 5 years, continuously?
A Yes sir.
Q Do you drive w h a t ’s known as the "paddy wagon"?
I do, sir.A
H earin g on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 621A
Q Tell us about an incident that happened on May
10 in the 1100 block of South Jefferson, where you had
the paddy wagon parked?
A Well, sir, I was shot at on the paddy wagon.
My mirror here was shot off of the wagon.
Q Do you have your mirror?
A I do, sir.
A Does this mirror stick out from the side of the
windshield on the paddy wagon?
A Right on my left side.
Q Right on your left side?
A Yes sir.
Q T h a t ’s the mirror that you look into to see how
to back without backing into anybody?
A T h a t ’s right, sir.
Q And this is the actual mirror that was on the
side of your paddy wagon?
A Yes sir.
Q Who shot you, Mr. Wills?
A Well, I d o n ’t know. I met a car with a colored
in it. He was traveling south.
MR. KING: If Your Honor please, I believe
the question put presumes or otherwise assumes that
somebody, some individual has been shot. There has
been no testimony to indicate that any human being
has been shot, and I object to it on that ground,
MR, RAWLS: Your Honor, I di d n ’t ask Mr.
Wills who shot him.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 7 2 7 622A
THE COURT: I think the question was, "who
shot you", and I sustain the objection.
Q Mr. Rawls: Well, what j meant to sa.y was,
who shot your mirror, Mr. Wills?
A Well, as I said, I met a car in t h e H 0 0 block
of South Jefferson Street. I was traveling north on
Jefferson, and this car was traveling south. And just
as it passed me, the shot was fired from the automobile
and it hit this mirror.
Q, Is your testimony to the effect that the shot that
bu'sted the mirror, your rear-view mirror, was fired from
a vehicle, an automobile?
A That's right, yes sir.
Q How many occupants were In that car?
A Well, sir, I only seen one. Of course, the car
was traveling at high rate of speed, I would say 45 to 50
wiles an hour and had his bright lights on, as I was meeting;
and before I could - I never did overtake him or get up
with him. In other words, I went about a half a block,
turned around and, of course, that wagon is pretty slow,
and he topped the hill and went over the hill from me,
ovei’ a grade, and I lost him; never did catch him.
Q Could you see him as you were meeting him and
Identify him sufficiently to distinguish what race he belong
ed to?
A He was colored, yes sir.
Q Were you later at another time called to what's
kh°wn a.s Third IQokee Church in your paddy wagon?
H earin g on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 623A
A I had come by there, yes sir.
Q Was It on the same night? Was it on the same night?
A Yes sir, yes sir.
Q What happened at Third Klokee?
A Well, they were having a mass meeting out
there that night.
Q How far were you from Third Klokee when your
rear-view mirror got shot?
A I !d say 5 blocks, 4 or 5.
Q 5 blocks,
A About 5, I would say.
THE COURT; About what, I didn't get that
answer? You were about how far from the church?
The Witness; About 5 blocks, Your Honor,
Q Mr, Rawls: Did anything else happen to
your paddy wagon in the vicinity of Klokee Church?
A Yes sir. Later we had a call over on Cherry,
at the Teen-age Center over there, there were some boys
that was throwing bricks and bottles and we had a - gave
to us a signal 7. That represented disorderly conduct.
We went out in that area there and also one of the cars
was out there with me.
Q One of the police cars?
A Yes sir; and It got a cement alley throwed out
*n the alley. It was traveling, It was chasing some of
t^ep and they jumped behind a building and throwed a
cement block out under the car; and it knocked the oil pan
up ag'irj rods.
H earin g on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 624 a
Q Were those colored people?
A And I had left this wagon parked on Cherry
S t r e e t there, trying to help them round them up; and when
I come back, of course, I didn't expect it but later found
out that there had been some gas rags put up under the dash
and it burned the wires off of it a little later when I
cranked it up and left there.
Q Were those colored boys that you were dealing
with?
A Yeah, that's right.
MR. RAWLS: Mr. Clerk, I will ask you to
put some kind of identification on this rear-view
mirror appliance here, please sir.
THE CLERK:: P-10.
MR. RAWLS: The witness is with you.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. C. B. KING:
Q Mr. Wills, what is your first name?
A My first name is Robert.
Q Are you assigned generally to driving this
Paddy wagon that you've spoken of?
A I am.
Q How big is the paddy wagon?
A Well, you can seat 12 men in it.
Q 12 men. Are you the same person who was dis
patched to take prisoners to Camilla, that is 20-some odd,
this paddy wagon?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 7 2 7 625A
MR. RAWLS: Now, If Your Honor pleases, I
object to this question and the contemplated answer,
on the ground it's illegal, Irrelevant and immaterial.
MR. KING: If Your Honor pleases, this is
only for purposes of identification and to that extent
I think it would be relevant.
THE COURT: All right, I overrule the objection.
Q. Mr. King: You may answer the question?
A All right, what's your question?
THE COURT: The question was, are you the
same person who was taking parties to Camilla in
the paddy wagon?
A The Witness: Well, I'm the man that did start
with them but they wasn't carried down there in the paddy
wagon,
Q Mr. King: 22?
A I wouldn't recall how many, for I d o n ’t believe
I counted them.
Q More than 12, is that correct?
A Well, I wouldn't say If it was and I wouldn't
say it wasn't.
Q da this particular occasion, you said that you
started to:
A That's right.
Q And would you indicate what happened, why you
didn't take them?
A Well, I hadn't got out of town and they radioed
tlle u0 come back to the Station.
H earing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 626 a
Q Did you take them ultimately?
A I returned back to the Station,
Q How many were in the car, In the paddy wagon?
A As I say, I didn't count them and I wouldn't
know,
Q Well, why were you called back?
A Huh?
Q Why were you called back?
A Well, they decided to transport some in cars,
and so forth.
Q. The same number that had been in the paddy
wagon previously?
A I would say there was.
Q Do you remember how many cars were dispatched
for that purpose?
A No.
Q Was there more than one?
A Yeah, there was more than one.
Q Was there more than two?
A I wouldn't say there wasj I wouldn't say neither
way.
Q As a matter of fact, there were five, weren't
there?
A No. As I said, I wouldn't say. I don't know.
Q How, I believe that your testimony was with
deference to the night of May 10, is that correct? You
^Stifled that while proceeding on Jefferson Street in a
“Northerly direction?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727
A Traveling north, yeah.
Q, You were met by a car proceeding in the
opposite direction? Is that correct?
A T h a t 1s right.
Q I believe you testified further that your mirro
was struck?
A Yes.
Q Do you know what it was struck with?
A By a bullet.
Q, How are you able to ascertain that it was struck
by a bullet, sir?
A Well, there it is (pointing to rear-view mirror)
Q, Did you find the bullet, sir?
A No, couldn't find it.
Q At what juncture along South Jefferson Street
did this occurrence take place?
A In t h e 3100 block of South Jefferson.
Q And to what intersection is that closest on
South Jefferson?
A You mean - I don't quite get you?
Q At what cross street on Jefferson is this
closest?
A I believe it's Dorsett there, just above there.
Q Dorsett?
A In other words, Food Bank Grocery out there
*s in that 3100 block and I had just passed that.
Q Now, I believe that you said that it was close
b0 the intersection of Dorsett?
H e a r in g on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 7 2 7 628 a
A It was right in that neighborhood. I ’d say
Pood Bank Grocery, I had just passed that,* and that's in
theUOO block.
Q On what street is Third ICLokee Baptist Church?
A Well, it's on between Alice and Carver Drive
or Carver — I believe that's right.
Q Looking south from Dorsett, how many blocks over
would be Alice?
A Well, I would say that was kind-of southwest
from where that happened; and it would be, as I said, five
blocks across there.
Q I would like to establish, first of all, how
many blocks over would Dorsett or how many blocks over would
Alice be from Dorsett?
A Well, let me see . . . be about three, the best
I can say off-hand,
Q About three blocks, that is looking south, Is
that right?
A Looking south, yes.
Q Now, how many blocks over is Madison Street
from Jefferson Street?
A Well, let's see, I believe, it's one.
Q As a matter of fact, It would be three, Is
that right, sir?
A You're speaking from Jefferson to Madison?
Q That's correct, sir?
A Well, no, I don't think so, no.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 629A
Q Well, let's see, by way of refreshing your
recollection: From Jefferson to Monroe is one, is It not,
sir?
A It is, yes; possibly.
Q Are you indicating you d o n ’t know, sir?
A Well, as I said, It was about five blocks from
where it happened at, that's roughly.
Q Five blocks?
A Just roughly saying that, across. I didn't
mean — I was speaking about straight across,
Q Now, how did you ascertain that this was a
Negro that was driving this car?
A Well, sir, my light shined In his face as I
was meeting him.
Q I see, and you were able to establish what he
looked like, is that right?
A Why certainly.
Q What did he look like?
A Well, he was a colored man, slim fellow, had
on glasses,
Q What kind of car was he driving?
A I'd say between a *59 and a *60 Ford.
Q What color was It?
A Well, I'd say in the dark probably a dark green,
the best that I - the glimpse that I got of him.
Q
A
Do you have to wear glasses, sir?
I do to read.
H earing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 7 2 7
Q Did you have them on, on that occasion?
A Huh?
Q Did you have them on, on that occasion?
A I did.
Q Was this at night?
A It was.
Q About 9:30, I believe you have indicated?
A No, around 10:45.
Q Around 10:45?
A T h a t 's right.
Q Did you indicate whether or not you found the
b u lle t ?
A Did not; did not find the bullet.
Q How do you know it was1 a bullet?
A I ’ve seen too many of them, heard the noise
and pistols.
Q Then, as a matter of fact, you don't know
positively that It was a bullet, do yn?
A Yes, I know it was a bullet.
Q Did you see him shoot the pistol, sir?
A Just as he passed, we were just passing one
another when it was fired right from the automobile.
Q Oh, and this was the first occasion that you
had to see him, Is that right?
A
Q.
630A
A
No.
Just as you were passing?
No, I seen him just before I passed him
H earing o n Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 631A
Q Just before you passed?
A Yes.
Q. Was he going fast or slow?
A As I said, he was going about 45 or 50, just
roughly guessing.
Q Now, as a matter of fact, there is a hill there
by this store that you talked about, I s n ’t there, sir?
A T h e r e ’s an upgrade there,* yes, just past the
store that goes over like that (demonstrating). . .
Q Now, I believe that you testified that you were
at Third JQokee Baptist Church but you didn't testify that
anything happened there, is that right, sir?
A Did n o t .
Q But you did say something about something
happening at the Teen Center?
A Th a t 1s right.
Q Where is that Teen Center located?
A I t ’s out there south of McKinley, Ballard-Park
School, just below there,
Q And that is a municipally owned recreational
center which is limited to the use of Negroes, is that
correct?
A T h a t ’s right. I have the complaint here and
man that put in the complaint on the particular call.
Q Getting back for a moment, Mr. Wills, to this
tocident in which you allege that your mirror was broken:
T\J j
u you see anybody else in that car?
H e a rin g on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 632A
A I d o n ’t recall seeing anybody else but the
driver,
A Nobody but the driver, is that right?
A It is possible there could have been somebody
else. I wouldn’t say there was and wouldn't say there w a s n ’t.
Q Did you indicate whether or not you tried to
catch the man?
A I did, yes.
Q You did?
A Yes.
Q Exactly what did you do in an effort to try to
catch him?
A Well, I turned around as quick as possible;
but, as I said, the truck was so slow and everything and
at the speed that he was traveling going south that he had
done topped that grade there and I lost sight of him.
Q Did you have any other traffic on the street
at that time?
A Well, I wou l d n ’t recall if I did.
Q As a matter of fact, was there any activity
there in the area?
A No, no, not right in that vicinity there at
that particular time.
Q Did you stop in an effort to ascertain xvhether
there were any witnesses to this?
A No.
Q Why d i d n ’t you?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 633A
A Well, I didn't see anybody that I thought
probably could give me any, that's why.
Q What do you mean by that, you d i d n ’t see anybody
that you thought would be able to give you any?
A Well, who had probably seen that particular
oar.
Q Did you see anybody?
A Well, I was looking for anybody, only for the
man that I thought was the one that I had met out there
and had took a shot at me. That was the only one I was
interested in.
Q Now, getting on to this Teen Center incident,
when did this take place?
A When did it?
Q Yes?
A That particular night about, I ’d say, 9:30 or
9^5, probably, just about an hour, I ’d say prior to
that, prior to this particular case.
Q Now, I believe that you testified that on
^is particular occasion that there was some cement block
thrown, is that right?
A That *s right.
Q Do you know who threw it?
A All I knew was some boys, some colored boys.
Q How do you know that they were colored boys?
A Well, do you reckon we didn't see them?
Q Well, did you arrest them?
H earing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 634 a
A Couldn’t run them down, couldn't catch them at
night.
Q What did you do in an attempt to find out who
they were?
A Well, we was out there trying to catch them
but they were like birds.
Q However, you never answered the question:
Did you see them?
A I did, yes.
Q, Now, you testified a moment ago about these
rocks being, not rocks but this cement block being thrown:
Exactly where were you at the time that It was thrown?
A Right off of South - right off of McKinley
down on Cherry, right In that vicinity there.
Q Right In the vicinity, what vicinity, sir?
A Well, right off of Cherry Street.
Q Right off of Cherry Street?
A In the alley north of Cherry.
Q Where does Cherry Street go to?
A Well, she goes on out right on through, on
out the park there, but It's got kind-of an offset in
there.
Q Runs east and west?
A T h a t 's right.
Q Now, how far is this off-set on Cherry from the
Teen Center?
A Well, It starts right In there. The offset is
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 635A
right in there where that Teen Center comes in at. It runs
out into South McKinley there
Q What block of Cherry was this?
A Well, I'd say that was - I wouldn't be positive -
I believe it was in the 700 block there.
Q In the 700 block?
A Yes.
Q As a matter of fact, that entire area is extremely
dark under night conditions, is that correct, sir?
A T h a t 's right.
Q Then, ultimately you d o n ’t know who threw this
cement block?
A No, I d o n ’t. I just knew it was some colored
boys, that’s all.
Q It wasn't thrown at anybody, was it?
A I w o u l d n ’t think so. They threw it out in the
ôad, where they jump behind the corner of a house;
threw it out In the alley right in front of the police
car and then broke and run.
Q. Now, you mentioned also In your testimony, sir,
this patter of discovering subsequently some rags?
A T h a t ’s right.
Q Where was the car parked at this time?
A On Cherry, left it on Cherry Street.
Q On Cherry St., when did you discover the rags?
A Well, when it caught afire.
Q Well, when was that?
A That was about, maybe 45 minutes later.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 636a
Q Were you enroute to the police station?
A No, I w a s n ’t. I was out there —
Q Out where?
A In that vicinity, went to pick up --
Q Exactly where in the vicinity?
A I was out there on Cotton.
Q Out on Cotton Street?
A Y e s .
Q How far was that from the Teen Center?
A Oh, I ’d say 2\ or 3 blocks.
Q 2-| or 3 blocks0
A Y e s .
Q Then, as a matter of fact, you d o n ’t know who
put those rags In there, do you?
A No, I sho d o n ’t.
Q Nor do you know exactly when they were put there?
A Well, I couldn’t say positively.
Q No further questions.
MR. RAWLS: Come down.
MR. RAWLS: Your- Honor, we desire to call
The Defendant, Dr. W. G. Anderson, for the purpose
of cross-examination under the rules.
MR. HOLLOWELL: He Isn't here at the moment.
We can call him. We can call his office, If you want
to have him come. Here he is now.
Hearing on Motion. For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 637a
DR. W, G. ANDERSON
one of the Defendants, called as
adverse party by Plaintiffs, being
first duly sworn, testified on
CROSS EXAMINATIONBY MR. RAWLS:
Q Doctor Anderson, have you been sworn?
A Yes sir, I have.
Q Doctor, are you an osteopathic physician?
A T h a t ’s right and surgeon.
Q Where did you have your education?
A College of Osteopathic Medicine and Surgery
in Des Moines, Iowa.
Q What section of the Country are you a native of?
A Georgia, Southwest Georgia.
Q What particular spot?
A Americas.
Q Your people live in Americus?
A Most of the time. My dad has an office here.
Q Doctor, y o u ’re the President of what Is known
as the Albany Movement?
A That's correct, sir.
Q What is the set-up of the Albany Movement?
S ^ a Partnership or association or corporation?
A It Is an unincorporate body that Is made up
of local people with representatives of the various
C1Vil ^ghts organizations,
Q Such as CORE?
A Such as CORE.
Q Southern Christian Leadership Confei’ence?
6 3 8 aHearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction;, No. 727
A That's correct.
Q Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee?
A That is correct.
Q, And the NAACP?
A That is correct.
Q They are all affilliated with you In the Albany
Movement ?
A Not as organizations but individuals who are
members of those organizations are also members of the Albany
Movement.
Q The Albany Movement has from time to time in
the past dozen months conducted mass meetings at Shiloh
and Mt. Zion churches, Is that correct?
A In the past seven months;, that's correct.
Q Well, does it go back further than seven months?
A The Albany Movement came Into existence in
November, November 15 of 1 9 6 1 , to be exact.
Q Doctor, has Dr. Martin Luther King spoken to
any of these meetings?
A Yes sir, on several occasions,
Q He is one of your main adherents, isn't he?
A Well, we are one of his main adherents to the
principle of non-violent resistance,
Q Dr, Martin Luther Is the big-wig In the Christian
•^dership the colored churches, isn't that right? Is n ’t
ne regarded as the biggest one there Is?
A He is the w o r l d ’s most renown disciple of
n violent resistance at the present time.
Hearing o n Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 639A
Q And, of course,, his presence in any community
attracts attention of everybody that knows he's in that
community, i s n ’t that right, Doctor?
A I agree with you whole-heartedly, yes sir.
Q He has a tremendous following, d o e s n ’t he?
A Yes sir.
Q According to your information and knowledge,
is his a religious crusade or is it a political crusade?
A Well, I don't think you could classify It as
being a political crusade or purely a religious crusade.
It certainly Is a crusade for human rights, which of
necessity encouehes not only the religious aspect but the
socio-economic aspects, and fringes on political aspects,
inasmuch as he encourages Negroes to assume the status of
first-class citizenship and assume all of the responsibili
ties inherent thereto.
Q Now, his tactics, I believe, are No. 1, by
petition; is that correct?
A Well, I ’m not certain that I understand the
question.
Q To the authorities'; in other words, If he seeks
a certain social or political or economic standing in a
community, his first approach Is by petition, i s n ’t it?
A No.
MR, HOLLOWELL: May It please the Court, there
nasn't been any establishment that he, that this man
^Rows, xt would seem that Dr. King himself might be
ohe best one to give this, unless there is some
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 7 2 7 6 4 o a
foundation to the effect that this particular person
has and knows.
MR. RAWLS: He said he knew.
MR. HOLLOWELL: There h a s n ’t been any saying by
this witness that he knew what the procedures were
relative to the question that you asked, unless
you’re going to direct another question.
THE COURT: All right, suppose you ask him.,
Mr, Rawls, if he knows.
Q Mr. Rawls: Dr. Anderson, I'll ask you, do
you know what his approach Is?
A I know what the approach was in the City of Albany.
Q All right, what was the approach In the City ofAlbany?
A Well, in response to the original question,
he did not use such an approach here In the City of Albany.
Q. What has been his approach here In the City ofAlbany?
A He has come to Albany and has joined with the
leaders of the Albany Movement locally and has worked at
theur direction, and in cooperation with them; and whatever
-°licies were established by the Albany Movement, he has
c°0j-ortn.ed with them.
^ He has encouraged marches in violation of the
finances and laws of the City of Albany, hasn't he?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction, No. 727
MR. HOLLOWELL: May it please the Court, I
would submit that this would be a conclusion on the
part of this witness, and It would be asking this
witness to declare a legal responsibility or give
a legal interpretation of acts for certain purpose.
THE COURT: I sustain the objection.
Q Mr. Rawls: I'll ask you this question,
Doctor: Do you know of the existence of an ordinance In the
Code of the City of Albany regulating parades, which provide
that parades may be had only after approval of an applica
tion by the City Manager; do you know about this?
MR, HOLLOWELL: May It please the Court the
witness is not a lawyer and the best evidence would
be the Code Itself; and No. 2, the Code does not read
in the manner that counsel stated It.
THE COURT: Well, he's asking him
MR, RAWLS: Let me see the Code.
THE COURT: He's asking the question simply
whether he knows that there Is such an ordinance.
He hasn't asked him to interpret it. He has just
asked him if he knows and that would not call for
a legal conclusion. That's a question of fact.
Q Mr. Rawls: Do you know that there is
such an ordinance,Doctor?
A The ordinance that I am familiar with is
n°t consistent with the ordinance as you have stated it.
Q Well, what is the one you're familiar with?
Hearing on Motion For. Preliminary Injunction, No. 727 642A
A The one that I am familiar with states that
the City Manager can give authorization in writing to
persons desirous of obtaining permission to have a parade.
Q Have you heard Dr, King say that people should
parade, regardless of the provisions of that ordinance?
A Absolutely not. I have not heard him say that.
Q, You didn't hear him, when he was speaking to
the Press Club in Washington, D. C.?
A Yes sir, I did.
Q What is your recollection of what he said to
the Press Club in Washington, D.C.?
MR. HOLLOWELL: May It please the Court, I would
submit that this would be much, much too broad a
question, unless he pins it down to something
specific.
Q Mr. Rawls: I ’ll pin It down. What did he
say with reference to his attitude toward violating what
he regarded as unjust laws?
A Well, he certainly said that if the law was
unjust as dictated by the moral laws of the universe
^ by conscience, then these laws should be broken.
Q I ’ll ask you If you recall hearing this
Particular remark by Dr. Martin Luther: I quote, "Unjust
laws" —
MR, HOLLOWELL: May it please the Court —
Q Mr. Rawls; "— we will not tolerate" --
MR. HOLLOWELL: Just a moment, sir. This is
bo document to my knowledge that has been identified.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 643 a
MR. RAWLS: Look at it.
MR. HQLLOWELL: Well, even if I looked at it,
I wouldn't want it quoted in the record unless it
had been introduced into evidence.
THE COURT; Mr. Hollowell, this is just
the same situation that we were dealing with about
newspaper clippings. He hasn't asked him to read
a document. He's simply asking him a question in
connection with it and he is apparently reading some
thing from a memorandum which he has. I don't see
any objection to that.
MR. HQLLOWELL: Excuse me, sir. He is reading
a document which on the top says "News film", which
in my opinion falls in the same category as a
newspaper article; and I submit to you that he
can't read into the record from it, any more than
I could read from that article Into the record here,
since it has not been introduced Into evidence.
Now, if he wants to let him look at it and
point out some portion of It, to see whether or not
this Is true, I would submit that this he could do,
but not in the manner that he's seeking to do It.
MR. RAWLS: Your Honor, I believe I won't
pursue that particular angle any further at the
Present time.
THE COURT: All right.
Q* Mr. Rawls: Now, Dr. Anderson, Rev. Martin
tuther King was one of your1 most sought after a.nd most
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 644 a
desired speakers for your groups that you have to meet in
connection with this Albany Movement, Is that correct?
A Yes, sir, Z agree with you.
Q How about Charles Jones, is he a speaker,
did he speak to same of your mass meetings?
A He has spoken on occasion also.
Q How about Dr. Ralph T. Abernathy?
A He has spoken on occasions.
Q How about Wyatt Tee Walker?
A Likewise.
Q, Now, have you heard these above named four
speakers or either one or two or three of them urge people
in attendance at these mass meetings to join in marching,
picketing, to hold sit-ins and to boycott Albany merchants
and bus company?
A Would you mind taking them one at a time and
I could probably answer you more intelligently?
Q Well, I ’ll ask you, have you heard either one
of these speakers that I've mentioned, either one of these
mr speakers, advocate at a mass meeting of your Albany
Movement to join in marches?
A No sir, no sir.
Q Neither one of them?
A No sir1, not In marches.
Q To picket?
A I do not recall any of these persons asking anyone
a Pass meeting to engage in picketing.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 645 A
Q To engage in sit-ins?
A Likewise;, I don't recall any o f the persons
you named asking any one at a mass meeting of the Albany
Movement to call for picketing.
Q To boycott Albany merchants?
A I don't remember them using the word "boycott"
in any of the mass meetings of the Albany Movement.
Q What did they use instead of "boycott", if
anything, "selective buying"?
A I have heard the words "selective buying" used,
yes sir.
Q Advocated by all four of these men?
A Advocated by all four of those men.
Q Now, have you heard either one or all four of
them or any number of them advocate the boycotting of the
bus company?
A I again have not heard the word "boycott" used
by any of these men.
Q Well, how about, have you heard anything said
by either one of them relative to patronage of the bus
company?
A Not specifically. As a matter of fact, the men
that you named were not here at the time the Negro citizenry
elected not to ride the busses.
Q Dr. Anderson, now last Sunday afternoon
did you appear on the MEET THE PRESS program?
A Yes sir.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 646a
Q In Washington, D. C.?
A In New York City.
Q In New York City?
A Yes sir.
Q Now, were you substituting for Rev. King?
A That is correct.
Q Why didn't he go Instead of you? He was invited
first and they wanted the big man, didn't they?
A He was a guest of your jail.
Q You were too, weren't you?
A Yes sir, I was released on bond.
Q. Well, he could have used the same Identical
$200 that released you and got released himself, If he
had wanted to, couldn't he?
A I presume so, yes sir.
Q Didn't he and you prefer that he be locked up
in jail while you were on MEET THE PRESS before the whole
Nation, so as to entice people to contribute funds to your
Movement? Wasn't that a scheme that you and Dr. King had?
A Absolutely not,
Q Well now, Dr. Anderson, don't you know that he
c°uld have gone with you, if he had wanted to? He had the
î OO, didn't he?
A I didn't ask him. You'll have to ask him.
MR. HOLLOWELL: May It please the Court, just
a moment. Mr. Ravils Is arguing with the witness.
THE COURT: Yes, yes; let's don't argue
with the witness.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 72 7 647A
MR. RAWLS: I'll ask you this question
THE COURT Just a minute, Mr. Rawls
MR. RAWLS: Excuse me
THE COURT Just as I have heretofore
cautioned others and asked their cooperation, I
also ask yours to ask your question, pause, give
him an opportunity to answer and let him complete
his answer 'before you ask him another.
was the No. 1 priority on the invitation to go to MEET
THE PRESS, what conversation and arrangement took place
between you and Dr. King, which resulted in you being
selected to go and he remaining in Albany jail? Tell us
about that?
MR. HOLLOWELL: May It please the Court,
I can’t even see that that would have any relevance
to this case whatsoever, what took place In the
matter of a conversation relative to an appearance
on TV in New York City.
something was said In connection with his appearance
that might have some bearing on the demonstrations
or the activity or the unrest that has been the
subject here. It would have bearing, if there was
an arrangement between these two, because they are
both named Defendants, it would have a bearing if
that appears. Now, If it doesn't appear that there
was anything said that would have any bearing on It,
Q Mr. Rawls: Dr. Anderson, since Dr. King
THE COURT: Well, it would be relevant if
k
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 648 a
I would agree with counsel.
MR. HOLLOWELL: I would submit, sir, that
inasmuch as both were In jail at the time and there
is no evidence In all of these four days Indicating
that either of them have had anything to do with any
demonstrations while they were in jail or the Doctor
was in jail or since he has been out, then I can see
where there would be absolutely no relevance. There
is no testimony offered --
THE COURT: I overrule the objection and
allow the question.
A The Witness: Would you repeat the question?
Q Mr. Rawls: Do you remember the question?
A I lost the question.
M r , RAWLS: Mr. Joiner, will you read that
question back to Dr. Anderson, please?
THE REPORTER (reading): "Question: Dr. Anderson,
since Dr. King was the No. 1 priority on the Invitation
to go to MEET THE PRESS, what conversation and arrange
ment took place between you and Dr. King, which result
ed in your1 being selected to go and he remaining in
Albany jail? Tell us about that?"
A The Witness: None directly.
Q Mr. Rawls: Well, how is that you happened
°° g0 ^ Me stayed in jail?
A Well, this was an arrangement that had been
R'acle ^7 representatives of the organizations which we
both represent.
H earin g on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 649A
q Well,, wouldn't the organizations that you both
represented supply the same amount of money to Dr. King
as they did to you?
A I presume they would have.
Q As a matter of fact,, it was Dr. King's individual
choice that he remained In Albany, even though he could
have been released upon the payment or posting of $200
cash bond, but he chose to remain in the Albany jail and
let you go appear as his proxy on the very important MEET
THE PRESS program in New York City?
A Of course, I cannot respond to your query
relative to the motivations behind this thing. I would
certainly rather you direct such questions to him, based on
his motives. Your statement of fact as relates as to how
he could have been released on bond Is quite correct.
Q In other words, it is true that he could have
posted $200 cash bond, just like you did, and have gone to
New York to appear on that program?
A I believe that this is a, matter of policy as
established by the City, that any person who is held in
jail, on posting such bond can be released.
Q In the amount of $200 cash?
A Well, whatever the bond was set for him. As
a matter of fact, I don't know what his bond was set at.
Q Now, how much did you get, how much is the
fee, including the expenses from where you live to New
to appear on MEET THE PRESS?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 7 2 7 6 5 OA
MR. HOLLOWELL: Here again, Your Honor, this
is completely irrelevant.
THE COURT: I agree with counsel. I sustain
the objection.
Q Mr. Ravils: Now, let me ask you something
about what you said on MEET THE PRESS, Doctor?
A It'll be a pleasure.
Q, And see If we can agree on that: Did you or
not state that you would not obey laws which you considered
unjust?
A I did not state that.
Q What did you state which would be In substance
something akin to that?
A I stated that vie do not feel compelled to obey
®just laws or laws that are unjustly applied.
Q You, of course, admitted In that address that
you made, or In the responses that you made to questions
asked you by the panel, that the Albany Movement, of which
you were President, had conducted in Albany mass demonstra
tions?
A We have — the members of the Albany Movement
"aVe Participated In mass demonstrations in the City of
Alt)any, yes sir<
^ bid you or not say that It would be difficult
0 determine whether you would abide by the Injunction,
if vj
Wanted by judge Elliott, and further that you would
have tn f 1came it up with your executive committee?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 651A
A That is correct. I made that statement, and
I might extend it further to state that the record shows
that we have abided by such injunctions previously.
q D i d n ’t you say that you and your group
expected violence?
A We said, I said we anticipated violence
in non-violent resistance movements., and we expect to
absorb such violence; but at no time would we be the
perpetrators.
Q Did you or not say that If relief were not
forthcoming soon, you expected a Little Rock situation
to develop in Albany?
A I said that it Is highly likely that such a
situation may develop If some relief does not come.
Q, Well, what do you mean by saying or by
referring to the "Little Rock situation"?
A I mean simply that there is a great potential,
a great potential of an explosive situation in the City
°f Albany occurring.
Q You mean by that that there will be racial
j-ights, is that right?
A As a possibility, yes.
Q You think that is imminent?
A I do not think it is Imminent;
Q Well, what do you think will avoid the
Precipitation of a Little Rock situation in Albany?
A Recognition of the constitutional guaranteed
rights of all of the citizens of Albany by the City
authorities.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 7 2 7 652A
Q In other words, you hold that as a threat
over the constituted authorities' heads In the City of
Albany, is that correct, Dr. Anderson?
A Absolutely not. That Is Incorrect. At no time
has the City been threatened by violence from the members of
the Albany Movement or their associates.
Q, When you proclaimed to the whole world by
use of the television camera and equipment that if relief
is not forthcoming soon you expected a Little Rock situation
to develop, did you or not mean that you were threatening
violence?
A I did not mean and I will be happy to explain
to you what I m e a n t .
Q, I wish you would?
A I have seen the types of brutalities on the
part of the City officials, that Is especially the police-
wen of the City and the Sheriffs. I have seen the
brutality that has been waged against our people in jails
tnat are adjacent to the City of Albany In other communi
ties where our people are held in custody; and I certainly
Ieel as though, if such violence continues as instigated
an(t as perpetrated by the City policemen and the Sheriff
of this county continues, our people soonei’ or later may
Retaliate,
^ You mean to say that you and the leadership
you represent will recommend to your people that they
Physical redress rather than legal and orderly redress
thf°Pgh the courts?
H e a r in g on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 7 2 7 653A
A Absolutely not. At no time would we advocate
meeting violence with violence. Our Movement will continue
to bear a non-violent resistance movement, and, in spite of
the fact that we have been mishandled, we have been abused,
we have been beaten, we have been overcrowded in j.ails
and treated inhumanly, we still would never retaliate
by violence; while, at the same time, we recognize the
human element that is involved in the City of Albany and
we certainly hope that others will recognize it also. You
cannot consistently and repeatedly abuse a people in this
manner without someone of these responding on the basis
of instinct, rather than on the basis of thought and reason
and understanding.
Q. Right after you made the Little Rock suggestion,
didn’t you say that you expected as many as 1 0 ,0 0 0 people
to move into Albany to participate In the Movement here
to help you?
A No.
Q You did not?
A No sir, I think you misunderstood the question
and the answer. I was asked how many of the local people
were participating in the Albany Movement, and at that
I said, If you can judge by the number of people we
have regularly attending the mass meetings, and this, of
course, represents anywhere from 150 0 to 2000 people, that
if each of these represents a family, It would be safe to
assume that as many as 1 0 - to 1 2 ,0 0 0 local people are
Participating to some extent in the Albany Movement activities.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 72 7 654 a
Q Doctor,, let me ask you this question: Do you
or not regard it as being conducive to contempt for law
and anarchy for you and your group, all of whom are highly
educated people to advocate to the rank and file of the
members of your race the open and defiant refusal to obey
the mandates of the law?
A I do agree with you 0
Q Well, why do you do it?':
A Well now, I ha v e n ’t said we do i t .
Q Well, you tell them to violate the City
ordinances about parading, don't you?
A This is incorrect. At no time have I told the
people in our community to parade.
4 What did you mean, what did you have in mind,
'mat specific provision did you have in mind when you told
the television audience that you would decide yourself
whether a law was just or unjust before you violated it
or didn't violate it?
A I do believe that such decisions are left up
the individual based on his own conscience as to whether
e does abide by or does not abide by a law that he considers
UŜ or unjust. And I think that this is a demonstration
the highest regards for law, when an individual is willing
violate what he considers an unjust law and is willing
Pdy the penalty for so doing.
Q Doctor, I hand you a document that is entitled
Nsws fi 1 yy,U
m , a product of CBS News, dated July 1 9 , 1 9 6 2 ,
No, 797 , .
' 3 ( 3 titled, "Washington, Rev. King at NPC, running
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 7 2 7 655A
time ons minute 17 seconds , one minute — noj wait a
minute - I believe that is one hour and 1 7 minutes:
A Maybe I could help you read it.
Q Yes., I wish you would; you are familiar with
those things; I'm not --
MR. HOLLOWELL: May I see it, Counselor?
MR. RAWLS: Yes, you may see It. You've
already seen it once. You can see it again. (Docu
ment handed to counsel for Defendants) . . .
Q Dr. Anderson, of course, you don't have any
Communist affiliations?
A No sir, no more than —
Q You've never been a member of any organization
that was cited or classified by the Justice Department as
Communist leaning?
A No sir.
Q Doctor, I hand you a document here, which Is
hated March, 1962, on paper heading "The Albany Movement,
505 South Monroe Street", that's already been marked as
H ’ Whlch designates It as PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT #1: will
°̂U 'i'00^ that and tell us about whether i t ’s authentic
Op Hoi-*?• iu appears to have your signature.
A Yes, I do recognize it and I do recall having
thed the stencil from which this was run.
^ Doctor, I hand you — You do identify that
as being authentic?
A I do; that's authentic.
Q That 1 s your signature?
H earing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 7 2 7 6 5 6A
A Y e s .
Q Do you know the approximate number of these,
of this P-1, that were sent out and to whom they were
mailed?
A They were mailed to the merchants of the City
and a sufficient number was sent out, so that all merchants
would get one.
Q Doctor, I hand you now a document that's
headed, "The Student Voice, Albany, Georgia", do you
know about that publication?
A I have read some copies of it.
Q I ’ll hand you what has been designated as
PLAINTIFFS' No. 2 and see if you can give us any help
on the authenticity of that?
A No, I'm sorry, I couldn’t because this, of
course, Is done by a group of Individuals and there are
various contributors and there are no policies established
that must prevail in the publication; and they may vary
from day to day or week to week.
Q Is that one of the groups that collaborates
with you in the Albany Movement in connection with —
A "Cooperates" is a better word, is a better
choice of words but that is right, yes sir.
Q Do you have that same remark with reference
to P-3?
A Yes sir.
Q Now, I hand you a document here, which says
that it ’s a statement by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. J2J 6 5 7A
Dr. W. G. Anderson, 11:00 a. m.-, July 25, 1 9 6 2 ,
designated as P-4: will you look at that and see if
you can help us with the authenticity of that statement,
or whether you authorized the publication of that statement?
A That is correct, I so authorized.
Q I hand you PLAINTIFFS' EXHIHET 5, which is
entitled "a joint statement of Dr, Martin Luther King, Jr.,
President, SLC, SCLC (Southern Christian Leadership Con
ference), and Dr. VI. G. Anderson, President of the Albany
Movement, Sunday, July 22, 1 9 6 2 , for Immediate release'1?
A I do recognize this as being a legitimate
release.
Q And you authorize the publication of that?
A And I authorized the publication of it.
Q I hand you a statement, on the letterhead of
the Albany Movement, dated April 1 6 , 1 9 6 2 , and marked
PLAIilTIPFS' # 6 , and attached to the back of It is what
appears to be a communication, responding to the letter
°n The Albany Movement stationery; and I'll ask you if
y°u will state whether or not the letter on The Albany
Movement stationery was written under your direction - it
appears to have been signed by you - and whether the carbon
c°Py, the original of the carbon copy which appears to be
Response by Chief Pritchett, was received by you?
A I do recognize it as having been sent and
ajthorized by me, and I do acknowledge receipt of the
llSinal of the carbon copy which Is attached.
H earin g on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 658 a
q Doctor, now here's a document that seems to
be mimeographed in two pages; it's headed, typewritten
heading "The Albany Movement", dated November 17, 1 9 6 I:
will you examine both pages and see if you as the executive
officer of the Albany Movement authorized the publication
of the statements contained therein?
A Well, this, of course, was not for publication.
This was for information only. What we have here is the
minutes of a meeting, which I believe was the Initial
meeting of The Albany Movement, when it was organized;
and this was -
MR. HOLLOWELL: Excuse me just a moment, Your
Honor: For the record, what we have here, I am wonder
ing If we might Identify it as to number, so as to
keep the record straight.
MR, RAWLS; I t ’s identified as P-7.
The Witness: P-7.
MR. HOLLOWELL: What I meant was, Mr. Rawls
had two pages in his hand and was saying what we have
here.
A The Witness: Both of them are marked P-7;
and I say these are merely minutes of a meeting which was
held by the Albany Movement, and was not for publication.
Q Mr. Rawls: But it Is authentic?
A It Is authentic, right. These are - this is
an avbhentie duplication of the minutes.
Q I believe you disclaim any connection,
°££iclal connection, with the Student Non-Violent Coordinat
es Committee?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 7 2 7 659A
A Officially., out we do work together.
Q D r . Anderson, is your group putting out any hand
bills of any kind at the present time, advertising a prayer
meeting service to be held at the City Hall?
A Not as I know of.
Q Have you seen one of the circulars?
A I haven't seen one.
Q Have you heard anybody say that they were being
put out?
A No sir.
Q I'll ask you to look at a document, which has
been identified by the Clerk as PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT No. 11
and see If you know anything about that document? Are you
familiar at all with the facts stated in the document?
A Very good. I'm not familiar with it, I'm not
familiar with any of the contents, I had no knowledge of
it being printed and I see nothing that relates to the
Albany Movement or myself as an individual.
Q Do you approve it?
A Well, that's not for me --
MR. HOLLOWELL: Whether or not he approves
it would be of no significance.
THE COURT: Yes, I sustain that objection,
let me see what it is.
^ Mr. Rawls: Doctor, while the Judge is
over that document, I have submitted to your
u'asel ^his news film that we started to look at a while§̂0 j Wi *] I
x y°u look at that and tell me whether you vouchf
* th® authenticity of that?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 66 OA
A I am not qualified to vouch for the authenticity
of this. None of these statements were made by me* and,
of course, I'm not familiar with the publication.
Q Well, you recall hearing Dr. King make the
statement that's alleged to have been made by him?
A I don't recall this statement In its entirety.
I don't recall it, no. Some portions of it are familiar
tut I don't recall it In its entirety.
Q Doctor, you say you have no connection whatever
with this P-11?
A Well, I said I had no knowledge of It being
distributed.
BY THE COURT:
Q Well, did you have any connection with Its
being printed?
A I had no connection with it being printed,
I had no knowledge ’of it.
Q Did you have any connection with It in any
ffay? Let's start from the first?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Well, you would know whether you had any
connection with it or not, wouldn't you?
A I presume so. Mind you, I do have a number of
associates that are authorized to act on my behalf when I
att> inconvenient.
Q Do you have any knowledge of any of your asso-
Clates being responsible for the document identified as P-11?
H earing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727
A I have no knowledge of any of my associates
being directly involved in the publication or distribution
of it*
BY MR. RAWLS;
Q Do you have any knowledge concerning this
document or this pamphlet or this hand-bill at all, Doctor?
A Not at all. This is the first I've seen of
this one.
Q Well, I'm talking about, do you know or have
you known -
MR. HOLLOWELL; If it please the Court, I can't
see how it could be any more clear than that and
even on cross to have the opportunity to just -
MR. RAWLS: I ’m cross-examining him --
MR. HOLLOWELL: Just a moment, sir, I ’m
making my objection. He should not have the
opportunity to keep pounding, pounding, pounding.
The witness has said he has no knowledge of his
own or of anybody else with whom he is associated
who has had anything to do with this particular
document. Now, I d o n ’t see how he could be any
more clear.
THE COURT:. I agree with you. We'll
simply go one step further and I'll do it myself.
Q - Or any other copies of this document similar to It
The Witness: I have not seen any or know of
any being in existence.
THE COURT: All right.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 662A
Q Mr. Rawls: Doctor, this EXHIBIT "A'r ;to the
petition, which has been marked P~17> you authenticate that
document, of course?
A This Is an accurate duplication of the original.
I did so authorize.
MR. HOLLOWELL: We can't hear the witness, Your
Honor,
A The Witness: I did so authorize the release
of this document.
THE COURT: Mr. Rawls, suppose you do
this, suppose you step back a little and continue
your questioning from a little greater distance
and I think It would be fairer to the witness and
I think It would enable counsel, opposing counsel,
to hear better,
Q Mr, Rawls: Did you extend an invitation
^ Dr, King to come to Albany to participate in this
Movement, Doctor?
A Yes sir, I did.
Q Does Dr, King receive any form of compensation
for his services down here in connection with this movement?
A None whatsoever from the Albany Movement, or
ani' other organization so far as I know or individual
So far as I know.
Q The Albany Movement takes up collections, don't
they?
A Yes sir.
^ What do you do with the money you receive from
the collections?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 663 a
A Defray the expenses of the organization.
Q Were you present with Dr. King when he made
the statement that he intended to turn Albany upside down?
A I don't remember the exact words. I remember
something to the effect that It needed to be turned upside
down or right side up, or something to that effect. I don't
remember the exact words, but something to the effect that
it needed to be turned right side up.
Q How about "upside down"?
A Well, I guess then it must be upside down
already, if It needs to be turned right side up, I don't
remember the exact words but I remember his statement —
Q Do you think that would be a desirable position
for the City to be in?
A I certainly think the right side needs to be
up, yes sir.
Q, And then if somebody turns It upside down,
It would put that particular city in a rather precarious
situation, wouldn't it?
A But If the wrong side Is up, I think it would
Put it in a mighty good situation.
Q Is it your opinion now that the wrong side of
Albany Is up?
A yes sir, absolutely.
Q. And you're In complete concurrence with Dr. King
that it ought to be turned upside down, Is that right?
A I think It needs to be turned right.
Q Is that right?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No, 727 664a
A To the way of right, truth, justice and honesty.
Q, And you think by force and violence is the proper
way to achieve that end, don't you, Doctor?
A No sir, I do not,
Q Well, don't you know that when you and other
intelligent men of your race go before a group of
illiterates and talk them. Into a high pitch, concerning
how badly they're treated, and don't you know that when
parties march out in what you call a non-violent march
that the remainder of the crowd is liable to erupt in
violence, and don't you know they actually do that In the
City of Albany?
MR, HOLLOWELL: May It please the Court, I
must object to the statement on many grounds:
No. 1, it is so prolix that it is difficult to tell
what part of It that he would expect this witness to
answer; No. 2, it Is about three-pronged; No. 3*
it calls for a conclusion; and No. 4, it's argumentative
and I submit that it is improper and should be stricken.
THE COURT: I sustain the objection to the
question as phrased. It may be broken down and
rephrased, If counsel wishes to do that*
Q Mr. Rawls: Dr. Anderson, in —
THE COURT: Suppose - it might take you
quite a while to break that one down, Mr. Rawls; so,
with that situation, suppose we take a recess now
until tomorrow morning at 9 :3 0 .
3:05 p.M., AUGUST 2, 1962 - HEARING RECESSED
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No, 727
(M0A,M.. AUGUST 3, 1962: HEARING RESUMED: -
MR, R A W L S : ■ Your Honor, we had not concluded
our cross-examination of Dr. Anderson.
THE COURT: Before you proceed with further
examination of the witness, the court reporter has
called It to my attention that he does not have an
adequate record - and, of course, we do wish to
have an adequate record - of exactly who is repre
sented by which counsel In this case. At the beginning
of the trial on the first day we had all counsel
identify themselves and I believe at that time I
suggested that the record show who each counsel
represented; but the reporter tells me that the
record is not adequate in that respect.
So, before we go further I would like to
complete the record. Now, Mr. Rawls, first, will
counsel for Plaintiffs state exactly who they repre
sent? In other words, if some counsel represent one
Plaintiff and some another, I would like for it to be
cleared up and do the same thing with respect to all
parties.
MR. RAWLS: All counsel of record, Your
Honor pleases, represent all of the Plaintiffs.
THE COURT: All right, all Plaintiffs'
counsel represent all Plaintiffs, is that correct?
MR. RAWLS: That's correct.
THE COURT: Now, for the Defendants I
would like the same information.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 666A
MR. C. B» KING; May It please the Court,
Attorney Carl Rachlin represents CORE;
Mr. Frank Reeves represents the National Associa
tion for the Advancement of Colored People;
Mrs. Motley, Mr. Hollowell and C. B. King
represent all other Defendants.
THE CLERK: How about Howard Moore?
MR. HOLLOWELL: Mr. Moore is out of my office
and is a part of our representation.
THE COURT: All right, is that adequate,
Mr. Reporter?
TH E REPORTER: Yes sir. I don't see counsel
for two of the Defendants here.
THE COUPS?: Yes, of course, Mr. Reeves,
I believe, has not been here since the first day.
I excused him at that time when he came in and spoke
to me about it and I told him. It was all right if he
wanted to be absent. Mr. Rachlin has never communi
cated with me and he hasn't been here but one day and
was not excused. I presume he doesn't intend to
participate any further In the case.
All right, you may proceed.
MR. RAWLS: Let Dr. Anderson return to the
station, Your Honor please.
DR. W. G. ANDERSON
BY MR. RAWLS:
MR. RAVILS: Mr. Reporter, will you read me
last question yesterday when we adjourned? I believe
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 667A
it was rather long.
THE REPORTER: "Question: Well, don't you know
that when you and other intelligent men of your race
go before a group of illiterates and talk them into
a high pitch, concerning how badly they're treated" -
and quite a long question following.
Q Mr. Rawls: A rather long question^ well,
I think I will abandon that question.
Dr. Anderson, have you .heard any speaker at
Shiloh Church urge those present to, No. 1, march or
demonstrate?
A Do you mean using the words "march" or "demonstrated
Q, To cover the activities that were actually per
formed under the auspices of the Albany Movement?
A I will say that I have heard speakers at the
Church urge people to protest segregation in the City of
Albany.
Q Well, would you say that they urged them to
Jiarch in groups to the City Hall?
A I could not say that they were urged to march
^groups to the City Hall.
Q Have you heard any speaker urge picketing of
ar7 Albany merchants?
A I have heard it announced that individuals had
elected to picket stores in downtown Albany .
Q That was with the approval of the Albany Movement,
° Cau:Fse, and its officers?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 6 6 8 a
A Well, the Albany Movement itself is not an
autonomous body, but individual officers in the movement
have stated that they would do this as individuals.
Q You approved it as President?
A Well, obviously, I participated. I saw fit to
go and picket myself on occasions.
Q Well, how about picketing the City Hall, has
that been advocated at any of these meetings?
A There have been certain Individuals who have
expressed a desire to picket the City Hall in protest to
the segregation in the City of Albany.
Q D i d n ’t Dr. Martin Luther King say on some
one occasion, quote "Come tomorrow and bring your walking
shoes"?
A I believe that statement could be attributed
to me, sir.
Q Not to Dr. King?
A I don't recall him stating it.
Q Was Dr. King present when you made that statement?
A I believe so.
Q Don't you know that the State and National
Press gave credit to Dr. King for that statement?
A Well, I'm not aware of that.
Q But you claim it yourself?
A I have made the statement, yes sir.
Q Well, did you make it after Dr. Martin Luther
E-ng first made It, or did you originate the idea?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 669 a
A As I recall, I was the first to make the
statement in the meeting.
Q, .Did you m.ake a statement in response to a question
on the MEET THE PRESS program that we talked a little
about yesterday afternoon, that we did have an order of
the District Court requiring integrated voting and voting
lists, but that no election had been held?
A Yes, and that was in error. I later learned
that I was out of town at the time when an election had
been held. This was in error.
Q You actually voted in that election yourself,
didn't you?
A No, I did not.
Q, You did not?
A No sir.
Q Do you know whether or not the church people
have been signed up to march or demonstrate?
A Well, I would have to ask what church people
you have reference to.
Q, Any of the groups in the churches, where these
mass meetings are held?
A Signed up to march or demonstrate, I cannot
say that I know of any that have signed up to march or
demonstrate.
Q Well, what are they signed up to do?
A Well, varied and sorted things. We
individuals who have signed up to perform certain secretarial
responsibilities or duties; some that have signed up to write
H earing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 670A
news releases and to receive phone calls, various sort of
things.
Q, As a matter of fact, don't you have what is
known as a "sit-in squad"?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Not to your knowledge?
A No.
Q Who plans and decides upon the course of action
to be pursued by the Albany Movement?
A This Is usually done by Individuals or groups
of individuals and The Albany Movement Itself has been
characterized by its spontaneity from its very inception;
and even until the present time I'm certain that even all
of the officials of the Movement do not know what activities
are going on that eventually are represented as being acti
vities of the Albany Movement. This Is something, a form of
protest that is participated in by members of the Negro
community that actually feel they must protest this evil
system of segregation.
Q I'll ask you whether or not C. B, King is
head of the policy and strategy department o f the Albany
Movement ?
A He Is not.
Q Has he ever been?
A No sir.
Q He's a member of the policy and strategy group
though?
A He Is an adviser.
H e arin g on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727
Q NOW; Dr. Martin Luther King, has he discussed
with any other members of the group plans and decided
what course of action to be pursued?
A Yes sir, he has discussed it with us.
Q And Slater King?
A He has discussed it with us.
Q, And Wyatt Tee Walker?
A Likewise, he has discussed it.
Q, Rev. Abernathy?
A Yes sir.
Q Charlie Jones, Charles Jones?
A Yes sir.
Q Do you know anything about any so-called clinic
that are held at these meetings?
A Yes sir, I do. I have had the opportunity to
sit in on some of the clinics and non-violent resistance
movements.
Q Do you have a clinic that goes Into the
techniques of the sit-in program?
A The clinics have been directed toward preparing
members of the Albany Movement to receive whatever type of
punishment they may have to receive in exercising certain
rights and privileges as citizens in the community.
Q Well, how about marching, the marching clinics?
A I have not attended any marching clinics.
Q How about picketing clinics?
A Likewise, X have observed clinics in progress,
whereby individuals were being prepared to meet any
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No, 727 672A
e v e n t u a l i t i e s s o far as any bodily harm coming to them
while enga ed in protest activities.
Q You know a man named James Foreman, don't you?
A Quite well.
Q As a matter of fact, he's the director, he's
the principal director of these various clinics, Isn't he?
A Well, he has been one of the instructors in
the clinics.
Q Who is he, what official designation does he
carry and what particular group does he head, If you know?
A He is the Executive Secretary, I believe - I'm
not certain of that - of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating
Committee.
Q W h a t 1s known as SNCC?
A That's correct.
Q, Did you ever receive any instructions from
him of any kind?
A Not directly but I have been present In the meet
ings when the demonstrations, that Is the exhibition was
going on, and I have had the opportunity of observing.
Q As a matter of fact, the operation of these
clinics Is the specialty of the Student — of the SNCC,
is that right?
A Well, I can't say that; I don't know it, as
a matter of fact.
Q What about donations to the Albany Movement,
financial donations; do they have any?
H earing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 673A
A Very, very little. The Albany Movement has
taken care of its own expenses for the most part.
Q Well, the Albany Movement do e s n ’t operate any
remunerative activities or businesses, does it?
A No.
Q I'll ask you whether the Southern Christian
Leadership Conference has ever contributed anything?
A
Q
Not any money.
Well, what have they contributed?
A The services of its staff members.
Q I believe y o u ’ve already stated that the
Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee has contributed
the services of James Foreman?
A T h a t 1s correct.
Q Any money?
A No money or contribution.
Q How about the NAACP, have they contributed any
money to the Albany Movement?
A Likewise only services.
Q No money?
A No money.
Q How about the Ford Foundation?
A No money, no services either for that matter,
so far as the Ford Foundation Is concerned.
Q How about the Southern Regional Council?
A Likewise, no money; some services.
Q How about the Southern Conference for Human
Welfare?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 674 a
A I'm not familiar with the organization.
Q How about Ralph McGill?
A No, not at all.
Q You know Mr, McGill, of course?
A Quite well, I'm proud to say.
Q, Well, how do you pay for car pools that you
operate?
A Donations on the part of individual members
of the Albany Movement; they finance their own transportation.
MR. HOLLOWELL: May it please the Court, I
have tried to sit and listen for quite some time.
It appears to me that there can't be much relevance
to this line of questioning. There's nothing in the
complaint that I've seen that goes to the matter of
any financial aspects of any of the Defendants; and
I would submit that this is irrelevant and ought to
be stricken.
MR. RAWLS: We submit it is relevant,
Your Honor, We allege a conspiracy.
THE COURT*. As I recall the allegations of
the petition, the petition alleges a conspiracy
between these groups; and it also asks for relief
about financial contributions, contributing finan
cially to the activities which are described. And
I think It is relevant to the extent that it has gone
thus far. I don't know how much further it may be
relevant but I think it's relevant so far.
H earin g on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No, 727 675A
MR. RAWLS: I'm about to the end of that
line of questioning. I have one or two more questions.
THE COURT; All right.
Q Mr. Rawls; Doctor, on yesterday I exhibited
to you two copies of a publication of The Student Voice:
do you recall looking them over?
A Yes sir.
Q, Now, The Student Voice is the official organ
of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee, isn't it?
A This I do not know as a matter of fact
Q, Of course, you know Mayor Asa Kelley?
A Yes sir, quite well.
Q You* ve known him for quite some time?
A Yes sir.
Q And you know Mr. Stephen Roos? Where
You know the City Manager?
A To a lesser extent, I know him, yes sir.
Q Now, since you left the stand yesterday after
noon, have you obtained any information concerning the
identity of the parties who were responsible for the
publication of the circular with reference to prayer
meetings scheduled to be held at the City Hall?
A I did inquire of the Executive Secretary of
the Albany Movement, as to whether he was familiar with
it; whereupon, he replied he was not familiar with It either.
At that point, I did not pursue further.
Q, Now, Doctor, did any of the organizations
that I questioned you concerning a while ago have Albany
tranches or do they?
H earin g on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727
A The NAACP does have a branch. Of course, the
Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee Is not a corpora!
body. The representatives of that Organization have been in
here sporadically for the past 9 or 10 months.
Q Is that the only organizations that have
local branch offices?
A The NAACP is the only one that has a local
branch.
Q Has that local office of the NAACP contributed
any funds to the Albany Movement?
A No sir, none at all.
Q Now, what information have you obtained concern
ing the circular - what became of that circular? Will you
state what information you have received concerning this
P-11 that we talked about yesterday?
MR. HOLLOWELL: May it please the Court,
counsel has just finished asking about that same
circular and the witness has just finished answering
that he had addressed the matter to the Executive
Secretary; and he has Indicated that he has no
knowledge of It; and, therefore, the witness has
not consider the matter further. And it appears to
be completely repetitious and irrelevant to go
into it and Incompetent to go into It.
MR. RAWLS: My question is anybody else
besides the secretary.
THE COURT: In other words, your question
now is and relates to anybody except the Executive
Secretary.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727
MR. RAWLS; Anybody, from any source.
TH E COURT: All right, go ahead.
Q, Mr. Rawls: Did you get information from
any source as to how this notice or hand-bill concerning c it y - w id e prayer meetings or vigils to be held on August
2, 3 and 4, 1 9 6 2 at 6:00 PM at the City Hall — •
A No, none.
Q None at all?
A No.
Q Now, Dr. Anderson, you're a churchman, I presume
A Yes sir.
Q Wouldn't you think it would be more logical
to have religious prayer services within the confines of
a church or some other edifice of that kind that's devoted
to religious services, than to have it on the pavement in
front of the City Hall or the entrance to the City Hall?
MR. HOLLOWELL: Now, may it please the Court,
there hasn't been any evidence that has been elicted
pertaining to this particular matter to which he is
now addressing himself. Therefore, this question
becomes argumentative,
THE COURT: 1 think the question is argumen
tative, Mr. Rawls. You asked him if as a churchman
he doesn't think that it would be more appropriate
and so on. I think it is argumentative fundamentally.
MR. RAWLS: Now Your Honor, you will recall
that on yesterday he testified, this witness testified
that he didn't have any knowledge of the matters
H e arin g on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 678a
stated in this bulletin but that he heartily approved
it. So* he's now in the attitude of approving so-
called religious, series of religious services in
front of the City Hall or at the City Hall; and I
think 1 certainly ought to be able to go into that.
THE COURT: I think you could argue that
to me but let's don't argue it with him.
MR, RAWLS: I was trying not to argue, Your
Honor please.
Q, Now, Dr. Anderson, I hand you a document
here, entitled "Remember this week", I'll ask you to
glance over that and see if you know anything the issuance
of It?
MR. HOLLOWELL: May I see It, Counselor.
Q Mr. Rawls: Or the publication of that?
MR. RAWLS: Oh, excuse me. (Handing document
to counsel for Defendants).
Mr. Clerk, did you bring the file in that
voting injunction case?
THE CLERK: Right there.
MR. RAWLS: I will go ahead with another
angle that I want to develop, Your Honor, while they're
looking over that document.
Q Dr. Anderson, you and Thomas 0. Chapman, Jr.
and Ed Hamilton and Slater King, Mrs. Dorothy M. Scriven,
°n behalf of yourselves and other Negroes of Dougherty
County, Georgia, similarly situated, brought a suiit as
Plaintiffs against the Ordinary, the County Democratic
H earin g on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No, 727 679A
Executive Committee and the City of Albany authorities,
City Executive Committee, and also Kemp, who is the
Chief Registrant of Dougherty County, being civil action
No. 686: How did that action originate?
A How?
MR. HOLLOWELL: If it please the Court, I would
submit that there would be absolutely no relevancy
to this Court and to the issues in this court as to
how did some prior action, which action has been
adjudicated by a Judge in this district, originated.
The action speaks for Itself how it originated and
that is the best and highest evidence.
MR, RAWLS; Now, if Your Honor pleases, I
withdraw that question. I simply wanted to develop
from this witness, If i t ’s the truth, that he is
perfectly aware that any petition that was filed with
the City Commission for any claimed relief from what
he says is illegal practices --
MR. HOLLOWELL: We can't hear counsel very well,
sir,
MR, RAWLS; I say that we contend that this
witness, on account of this action, is perfectly
familiar with the matterof petitions to the City
Council, and then the subsequent proceedings in the
event the relief sought is not obtained; and I wanted
to show by this legal proceeding, which he Is the No. 1
petitioner In, that he Is aware of legal processes;
and I wanted to ask him why, in connection with the
H earing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727
complaint which we are trying before Your Honor now,
instead of resorting to coercion by mass meetings
and parades and so forth, he did not resort to legal
processes, like he did in the voting case.
THE COURT: I will let you go into that.
MR, HGLLOWELL: May it please the Court, I
didn't hear the Court's response.
THE COURT: He wasn't asking the witness a
question. He was directing his remarks to me,
explaining the theory, not the theory but the
evidence which he wanted to develop by asking the
witness questions about this particular suit; and I
simply stated to him that I would allow him to go
into it, I haven't ruled on any specific question.
MR. HOLLOW ELL: I see. Well, we will wait
until he propounds his question. I would submit
that this still would be argumentative as to why he
did not take a particular forum, that this Is argument
THE COURT: No, I don't think you understand
at least your understanding is not the same as mine.
What he intends to do, as I understand it, is to show
that this witness is aware that he could proceed
other ifays, other than the way he did proceed. He
doesn't intend to argue with him about it but he
simply wants to show that he is aware of this
procedure.
MR, HOLLOWELL: I submit that this is purely
irrelevant and would still be irrelevant to this
H earin g on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 7 2 7 68lA
particular issue and It would be argumentative to
the N'th degree. For instance. If he had filed a
suit instead of taking whatever other processes he
has taken, then the question could be asked, "Well,
why didn't you take another process Instead of filing
a suit?" I mean, it's argumentative either way
you take it and would have no relevancy here.
THE COURT: No, I take a different view of
that than that. I think it's pertinent to show
what may have been the purposes and the Intentions
and the anticipations of the Albany Movement in
sponsoring the various activities which are now
under consideration.
MR, HOLLOWELL: I think he could ask that,
which Is not the same as what I understand he was
about to proffer.
THE COURT: I am going to allow him
to go into it.
Q Mr. Rawls: Dr. Anderson, prior to bringing
tills suit, you and your associates did file a petition with
the Defendants named in the suit protesting against the
practice of requiring separate voting books for Negroes
and requiring separate voting lists for Negroes, and
requiring separate voting precincts fox’ members of your
race, didn't you, Doctor?
A That's correct.
Q And the people that you petitioned in their
°fficial positions declined your request for that con
cession, didn't they?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 682A
A That's correct.
Q And then you,, through counsel - let's see who
they were -
A Attorneys King and Hollowell.
Q - you filed a petition to the United States
District Court for this District., which was subsequently
heard by Honorable William A. Bootle, the United States
Judge, and in an orderly hearing in Macon, Georgia, after
arguments and briefs were submitted to His Honor, Judge
Bootle, he concluded that you were right, didn't he?
A That's correct.
Q And he entered an appropriate judgment of the
Court so proclaiming, didn't he?
A That's correct.
Q And there wasn't even an appeal to a higher
court by the Defendants in this case, was there?
A I presume not; I don't know it as a matter of
fact.
Q Well, don't you know that's true, Doctor?
A I don't know it as a matter of fact.
Q Well, don't you know that since the order
of the District Court that in every election which has been
held there has been compliance with the order of that
Court?
A So far as I know, there has been compliance.
Q And don't you know that subsequently to that
hate that Negroes and whites register in the same identical
hook, without any reference to race or anything else; don't
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 683A
you know that?
A I d o n ’t know that to be a fact.
Q Have you been down to see?
A I have been down to see and I have yet noticed
different colors of cards that previously have been used to
designate race.
Q Do you testify that those cards are in use at
the present time since the order of the Court In this case?
A I do not know as of the present time whether
this is in effect.
Q And you know that there has been an election
held subsequently to the rendition of that judgment,
where all of the races., all of the races colored and white,
went in the same line to the same precinct and voted with
out any regard to color, don't you, Doctor?
A So I understand; yes sir, that is correct.
Q. Now being perfectly aware of available legal
processes for the redress of any complained wrong that has
been done to your people, why did you as leader of The
Albany Movement propose to have mass meetings, which you
testified yesterday you knew were calculated to provoke
violence?
A T h a t ’s incorrect.
MR. HOLLOWELL: Now, if it please the Court, I
will object to the question, on the ground that the
question pre-supposes that the processes that the
witness has stated that he engaged In, which were
not those just enumerated by counsel, are illegal.
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 684 a
The very nature of the question. And for this reason
I submit that this would be., not only an unfair ques
tion, but here again it is an argumentative question.
THE COURT: Well, Mr. Hollowell, the
witness himself testified yesterday that the reason --
he gave his philosophy yesterday -- that the reason
he participates in these things and the reason that
the Albany Movement suggests that others participate
in them, is because they feel and it is his philosophy
that if a law is unjust, that they have a right to
violate it, and he says t h a t ’s the reason they do
these things.
Now, counsel is asking whether, since he knows
that there are legal processes available to correct
the injustices of any lav/, if there be anjr injustice
of it, he is asking him now why he d o e s n ’t resort
to that rather than resorting to demonstrations.
MR. HOLLOWELL: If it please the Court, if
my memory serves me correct, there was just a little
addition to that which Your Honor has related. My
understanding was that he said the reason that he
broke what was said to be unjust laws was because
these were laws that were used to enforce segregation;
and, of course, Your Honor and this counsel and
counsel for the Defendants know that such laws,
which are sponsored by the state or any subdivision
thereof, have already been declared unconstitutional
in other areas; and, therefore, when he says that he
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 685A
is willing to breach an unjust law., an unjust
ordinance, as It relates to segregation because
these are contrary to the moral and actually the
laws of the United States, as has been handed down
by the Supreme Court of the United States; and I
think that here again this action pre-supposes that
the processes have been used Is an illegal process,
whereas Your Honor as well as counsel know that the
Supreme Court has held that this Is possible and
it Is not illegal for one to even breach a law in
order to test a particular case, as is best known
or best set out in Evers v. Wyatt; and for that
reason I submit that counsel’s question still pr e
suppose an Illegal process on the part of that which
they are doing and, therefore, it Is agrumentative.
THE COURT: It doesn't presuppose It any
further than this witness has testified about it,
as I see it, Mr. Hoilowell. He himself says that
he regards these statutes as being illegal. He
testified that yesterday.
A The Witness: Pardon me, sir?
THE COURT: He said that yesterday; so,
it doesn't presuppose any more than the witness
presupposes. I will allow the line of questioning.
Go ahead.
MR. RAWLS: Would you read, Mr. Reporter,
the question which I propounded to the witness?
THE REPORTER: (Reading) "Question: Now, being
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 6 8 6 a
perfectly aware of available legal processes for the
redress of any complained wrong that has been done
to your people, why did you as leader of The Albany
Movement propose to have mass meetings, which you
testified yesterday you knew were calculated to
provoke violence? Answer: That's incorrect."
THE COURT: Now, with regard to that
phrase that "that you testified yesterday was
calculated to provoke violence", I do not recall
the witness having said that; and I think that
portion of the question whould go o u t .
MR. RAWLS: I strike that portion of the
question, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Go ahead with the remainder
of your question with that phrase omitted.
MR. HOLLOWELL: Excuse me, if I might Your
Honor, for the record, I'm sorry, I beg your pardon,
Mr. Rawls, I wanted to do this; I wanted to just
add as a part of my objection the additional reason
that It pre-supposes the illegality of people picketing
and peacefully protesting.
THE COURT: All right, go ahead.
Q Mr. Rawls: Will you answer that question,Doctor?
A I'm afraid you'll have to restate the question.
Q Well, to summarize, why did you and your group
elect to go through the processes which you have gone
through, rather than resort to legal processes?
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No, 727 6 8 7 A
MR. HOLLOWELL: I object to the "rather than
resort to legal processes", Your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Rawls, suppose you make it
specific. Suppose you simply ask why did they do
or go through these processes, demonstrations,
marches and so on rather than resorting to legal
action in the United States Court.
Q Mr. Rawls: Doctor, why did you and your
associates in the Albany Movement elect to go through the
processes which have been proven here or testified concerning,
and which you have admitted that you participated in, rather
than following the procedure which you followed with
reference to the voting rights you claim; that is to say,
file a civil action in the District Court for redress
of your claims?
A Well, No. 1, we certainly feel as though these
protests have all been directed toward the segregated system
in the City of Albany. Secondly, we feel as though we were
exercising a constitutionally guaranteed right; that is a
right that should not be circumvented by any local laws
or ordinances. The highest court in the land has supported
in the affirmation that segregation is contrary to the
constitution of the United States. So that, in engaging
in these protests we were merely exercising a constitutionally
guaranteed right; and any laws designed to interfere with
us exercising this right then would be contrary to the
Constitution of the United States, which is the highest
law of the land.
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 72? 6 8 8a
Q I ’ll ask you now., since you've made your
explanation, could you not have asserted the claimed rights
which y o u ’re undertaking to establish in mass meetings and
marches, by bringing a civil suit in the District Court
of the United States, before the same Judge - at that
time, at the time your group stated Judge Bootle was
still the only Judge in this District - could you not
have asserted the same rights which you contend you are
asserting by your mass meetings and your marches, your
parades, marches; is it not true that you could have brought
a civil action in the District Court for the protection and
for the assertion of the same rights you are trying to
establish by your Movement?
MR. HOLLOWELL: Are you through, Mr. Rawls?
MR. RAWLS: Yes.
MR. HOLLOWELL: Now, may it please the Court,
here again I t ’s argumentative; and beyond that, this
is a purely legal question; and this witness is not
a lawyer. Therefore, it would be a conclusion if
he gave a response, plus the fact that I don't
recall him ever saying that he had engaged in any
march.
THE COURT: I think the question as phrased
would call for a conclusion. I will allow the
question if it is rephrased to ask the witness
whether he knows that he could have done so and so;
not to ask him 'whether he could have done it but
whether he knows that he could have done it.
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 6 8 9A
Q Mr. Rawls: Doctor., are you aware that the
same rights and the same privileges that you are under
taking to assert in these mass demonstrations and marches
could have been asserted in a suit in the District Court
of the United States for this District?
MR. HOLLOWELL: Well, here again I submit that
he's not a lawyer and he's not a judge, and unless
he were In that category, it would be calling upon
him to make a legal conclusion, to know what rights
he would be able to assert in the District Court of
the United States.
THE COURT: I overrule that objection
because I think the question as asked simply asks
him whether him whether he knew or not. It doesn't
ask him to interpret the law. He is simply asked
whether he knew he could or not.
A The Witness: Well, the things that have
been set forth --
THE COURT: Just a minute. Now, that's
a question that can be answered with a yes or no.
He has asked you whether you knew that you could have
done these things that the question refers to. Now,
you answer it with a yes or no and then you can
explain your answer in any way you want to.
A The Witness: No.
Q Mr. Rawls: You don't have to explain
no then. You say you did not know that?
A I did not know that this could be accomplished
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. J2J 6 9OA
in this manner.
MR. R A W L S : That's all.
MR. J. J. LAIRSEY
1 8 th witness called and sworn in
behalf of Plaintiffs, testified
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. R A W L S :
Q State your name and occupation to the court
reporter, please?
A J. J. Lairsey, Assistant Chief, Albany Police
Department.
Q Have you been sworn?
A Yes sir.
Q How long have you been with the Albany Police
Department?
A 10 years.
Q Chief, do you recall an incident where certain
equipment of the Police Department was damaged or destroyed
being hit by missiles that were hurled at it?
A Yes sir.
Q Do you have personal knowledge of that?
A Yes sir.
Q All right, tell the circumstances under1 which
that was done, the place, its location?
A On the 7-10-62 at approximately 9:30 P.M.
I was parked at the Corner of Whitney and Jefferson on
tne southeast - southwest corner in a patrol car. I was
Sltting in the back seat. Some party threw a rock, or
eXactly about half of a brick, and broke out the red dome
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 691A
light on top of the police car.
At this time there was a large meeting in one
of the churches on the corner and there was a lot of people
outside, when the light was broke. I don't know,, I did
not see where the brick came from but it shattered the
dome light.
Q Now, Chief Lairsey, do you remember an occasion
ihen the police department, headed by Chief Pritchett, was
undertaking to restore order at a place on Jackson treet
just south of Oglethorpe Avenue on the 24th of July? Did
you participate in that?
A Yes sir.
Q How were you traveling?
A I was on a motorcycle that night.
Q Did anything happen to your motorcycle?
A I had a rock, one of the rocks that was thrown
did hit the motorcycle; it didn't hit me but it hit the
motorcycle.
Q Will you describe your recollection of what the
situation was with reference to whether bottles or rocks
were thrown as you observed there?
A Well, I was more or less the head of one column of
men that went down through Harlem and there was a lot of
mottles and rocks and stones thrown.
Q Do you have an estimate of the number of people
who were participating in that situation there?
A I would estimate in that vicinity down there
between 2500 and 3,0 0 0.
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 692A
Q What race did the people belong to that was
in this group that was undertaken to be dispersed?
A Colored race.
Q Did anything of any moment or of any importance
transpire along the sidewalks a short while prior to that
demonstration?
A I didn't understand you.
Q I say, what, if anything had happened with
reference to movement from the churches just prior to that?
A Just prior to that, we had had a march down
towards the City Hall from one of the churches.
Q Now, In your police efforts have you had
occasion to observe the pattern which is generally followed
from these churches or mass meetings by the other people
present at those meetings Inside and outside of the church?
A Yes sir.
Q. Well, I'll ask you now, what happens to the
ones who do not join in the actual organized procession
or parade? What do they do?
A Well, it seems like the ones that are not in the
actual march follow the march up through Harlem as far as
Oglethorpe and In that area and the others in Harlem more
°r less join in with them too.
MR. RAWLS: He's with you.
CROSS EXAMINATION
3Y MR. c. B. KING:
Q Mr. Lairsey, you indicated a moment ago that
°n July 1 0 , 19 6 2 during the night season down on the corner
693 aHearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727
of Jefferson and Whitney there was a missile of some sort
thrown at a car in which you were seated, is that correct?
A T h a t ’s correct.
Q In relation to wrhere this church meeting was
going on, where was the car in which you were seated?
A It was parked in the southwest corner.
Q On the southwest corner?
A On Whitney on the southwest corner.
Q. In what direction was the front of the car
headed?
A The front of it was headed east.
Q The front was heading east?
A Y e s .
Q This means then it was diagonally across the
street from Shiloh Baptist Church, is that correct?
A That 's correct.
Q The rear of which was going toward Monroe?
A That 's true.
Q Or west, is that right?
A That ’s right.
Q Now, all along the area which would be to your
rear is extremely dark during the night season, is that
correct?
A Yes, it's dark there.
Q Your response was "yes"?
A Y e s .
Q As a matter of fact, you d o n ’t know who threw
missile, is that right?
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 69^A
A I could not say who threw it.
Q And it came from that direction, is that correct
A I don't know which direction it came from.
Q It is your testimony that it hit the back of
the car, is that right?
A No, I said it hit the dome light on top of the
oar.
Q Where was the dome when you examined it?
A The dome light?
Q Yes, when you got out of the car, where was
the dome light?
A It was spattered all over the top of the car.
Q Now, I believe that you indicate that you
have been with the Police Department for a substantial
period of time, is that right?
A That's true.
Q W e r e n ’t you able to determine the point at
which or the direction from which that missile came, by
examining __
A No, was not.
Q -- by examining the pattern —
A No. There's so much vacuum In those lights,
'when something hits them, it just shatters,
Q Then, let me ask you t h i s : There was a light
in front of your car, was there not? There xvas a street
light in front of your car, is that correct?
A
corner.
Yes, I believe there's a light, right on the
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 695A
Q It is undeniable that If you were looking ahead,
you would be able to see anybody throwing from your front,
is that correct?
A That's correct. At the moment I can't say if
I was looking ahead or talking to the fellow side of me;
but if I had been looking ahead, I would have probably
seen it.
Q Did you see anybody, did you look ahead after
it was hit?
A Nov;, across the street ahead of us were some
people but I don't know who threw it, as I said.
Q Then, it's your testimony you don't know where
that brick came from?
A I don't know whether it came from the side of us
or back of us or In front of us.
Q Now, I believe on the 24th you testified that
you were on a motorcycle and came into the 200 block of
South Jackson Street, Is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q, I believe you indicated that there was some 2500
3,000 people in that area, is that right?
A That's correct.
Q How did you arrive at that determination, sir?
A Well, it's hard to judge a crowd, I suppose,
but I've been in so many big crowds, such as ball games
an<i so forth, that you can pretty well get an estimate of
bow many is in a crowd.
Q And this Is the basis on which you made your
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 7-7 6 9 6 A
estimate?
A In my opinion, that was it.
Q, Simply by your being in baseball crowds, is
that correct?
A In places where you knew how many people were
there and then Judging by that and this crowd.
Q Nov/, you indicated that on July 24 that you
drove a motorcycle down In this area?
A That's correct.
Q I take it that your motorcycle along with
somebody else's represented the head of a column, is that
correct?
A
Q
motorcycle,
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
That's correct.
Your testimony is that something hit your
is that correct?
It was a rock that hit the motorcycle.
Well, how do you know it was a rock?
It fell right down there side of my foot.
What is that?
It fell right beside my foot.
And you looked down and you saw it, is that
correct?
A That's right.
Q Then, I take it that there were other rocks,
°n the basis of your testimony,
A Yes, there were some more rocks and bottles
sPatter>ed around.
Q Now, how was this column moving?
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 69 7 A
A The column of men, one column on each side;
and there were three motorcycles, one on each side of me.
1 was in the center. And we were moving slowly down the
street.
Q Then, you were the head of it, is that correct?
A Well, I was, I think the motorcycles were
about even with each other but I was in the center.
Q You were in the center?
A Yes.
Q And you were moving how fast?
A Very slow. We were trying to go about a walking
pace.
Q There were people in front of you?
A The colored people wer,e in front of us.
Q Well, are they different from any other people?
A No, I didn't know just what, who you meant. We
were trying to clear the street.
Q Then, you were moving at the time that this rock,
you say, hit you?
A Yes sir, we were walking about a walking pace,
as slow as we could go and keep the motors going.
Q And yet, you saw the rock?
A Yes, as it hit, it hit right on the gas tank;
and as it hit, it bounced up down there on the street, and
I seen it.
Q Now, going back a bit, Mr. Lairsey, you are
the same Mr. Lairsey who had an occasion on or about
M e m b e r 19 to arrest --
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 69 8 A
MR. RAWLS: Now, if Your Honor please —
Q, Mr. King: -- Mrs. Norma Anderson in the
bus terminal?
MR. RAWLS: Now, if Your Honor pleases,
h e ’s going into matters which were not even thought
of or touched on direct; and we object to him
crossing this witness about any matter that was
not covered or touched on, on direct examination.
MR. KING: If Your Honor please --
THE COURT: Just a minute -- he hasn't
completed his question yet. After he's completed
his question, I'll hear from you.
Q Mr, King: No. I was interested to know
whether you are the same Officer Lairsey who had an occasion
on or about December 13, 19 6 2 to arrest a number of persons,
one of whom was Mrs. Norma Anderson?
MR. RAWLS: Now if Y 0ur Honor pleases,
before the witness has had an opportunity to answer,
1 object upon the ground that he's going into matters
that were not touched on or suggested in connection
with our direct examination.
THE COURT: Yes, I'll hear from you —
MR. RAWLS: He has no right to cross this
witness on any matter except what was brought out
on direct examination.
THE COURT: What about that, Mr. King?
MR. KING: If Your Honor pleases, I would
submit that counsel seeks this information as a means
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 699A
of establishing identity here. I would also submit.
Your Honor, that there has been on the direct
examination the elicitation of information with
reference to certain conduct on the part of officials
of the Police Department of the City of Albany, in
consequence of which I would submit to Your Honor
that, based on these two considerations, it would
become an appropriate subject matter for counsel to
go into.
THE COURT: I will rule this way on the
situation. I will allow the witness to answer the
question, which you have just propounded; that is,
is he the same officer Lairsey who made an arrest
at a given time. I will allow him to answer that
for the purpose of establishing identity, which you
say is the reason y o u ’re asking the question.
But I will not allow you to go Into the
circumstances of the incident because this witness
has not testified concerning anything relative to
that on direct examination, and any cross with regard
to it would be irrelevant; so, I will allow the
witness to answer the question that has been propounded
yes or no.
Q The Co u r t : Are you or are you not the
same officer who made an arrest, if you did make an arrest,
as he says?
A Yes sir.
THE COURT: All right, his answer was yes.
gearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 700A
Q Mr. King: You just testified a moment ago,
Mr. Officer, that you had an occasion to observe the persons
who were walking in an organized fashion, the 40?
A What was the last part of your question?
Q This was on July 24 or 2 5th, the 24th I believe?
A T h a t 1 s corre c t .
Q On the night of July 24; and, of course, you said
that it "seemed" that another group followed and joined in,
is that correct?
A Joined in at the rear of the march, is that
what you mean?
Q Yes?
A Yes, as the march come along the other crowd,
not in formation, begin to gather and walk along behind
them and on both sides of the sidewalk going in the direc
tion they were going.
Q Well, there is some question here, were they
behind them or on both sides of them, which one?
A They were behind them and also there were some
on the other side of them.
Q How many v/ere behind them?
A Now, what location are you talking about, when
you say "how many were behind them?"
Q, I want to know how many were behind; you were
the one who said that there was a contingent of persons
behind?
A Well, I say that as the march came up out
°f Harlem, there was 25- or 3^000 coming up towards the
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 701A
bus station. That would be behind the match. That's what
1 was getting at.
Q Well, how would you know, I believe by prior
testimony that you were supposed to have been away up in
front of this cordon of police, leading this line, weren't
you?
A I started at Oglethorpe, that's right.
Q Well, how would you be able to know whether
they were behind or where?
A I was there when the group come by us and
then I seen the ones -
Q, Nov/, which group are you talking about, excuse
me?
A I believe you're referring to some of the
people that were marching towards the City Hall?
Q Well, I didn't use the term "march", but that's
your own creation; I'm speaking in terms of the 40, I
believe that you did testify that there were 40 persons
who gave evidence of being organized, is that correct?
A That's right.
Q Now, we're talking about this other group that
you spoke of, the 2 ,0 0 0 or 3 ,0 0 0 or how many you said
there were, where were they?
A They were In the 200 block of South Jackson.
Q Where?
A Well, they were coming up from the 300 block and
the 200 block kept filling up in that area. That was after
these 40 had passed.
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 702A
Q Now, where were they, on the sidewalk or the
street?
A The sidewalk and the street.
0, The sidewalk and the street?
A That's correct.
Q, Now, were they behind the 40?
A They were behind them, all except the few
that was on the east sidewalk were more or less even with
then, some of t h e m .
Q, How could you see them, being at the front of
the line, if they were behind them,
A I didn't stay at the front of the line.
Q How long did you stay at the front of the line?
A You're talking about the front of the line that
had the 40 in it?
Q Yes?
A Or the front of the line of police?
Q The one with the 40 in it?
A I didn't stay at the front of that line. I was
there when the front of the line passed me. I didn't go,
didn't stay with the front of that line.
Q Where did you go after that?
A I was stationed there at the corner of Oglethorpe
and Jackson.
Q Now, in front of what line are you now?
A The front of the 40 that was arrested, they
came along by me at Oglethorpe and Jackson; and then, as
they passed me, these other people in Harlem, which I was
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 703A
talking about, the 2 5- or 3,0 0 0.
Now, are you justified based on your own testi
mony in saying that these people were behind them in the
sense of following them? You actually can't testify to
that, can you?
MR. RAWLS: Your Honor please, I object
to him arguing with the witness.
THE COURT: Yes, let's don't argue with him.
A The Witness: I can only give my opinion on it.
Q Mr. King: Then, I take it, sir, you don't
know, is that right?
A My opinion Is they were following.
Q, But that was not responsive to the question:
you did not actually see them follow, did you?
A They were going in the same direction, so that's
the same as following.
MR. K I N G : No further questions
MR. R A W L S : You can go down.
MR. RAYMOND F, SLAUGHTER
1 9 th witness called and sworn in
behalf of Plaintiffs, testified
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RAWLS:
Q Mr. Slaughter, will you identify yourself there
to the Court Reporter, please?
A Raymond F. Slaughter, motorcycle patrolman,
Bity of Albany.
Q How long have you been on the City police force?
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 704 a
A Approximately four years.
Q. Mr. Slaughter, do you recall an Incident on
or about - I believe to be exact, on Saturday, July 21,
1962, at a point near the front of the City Hall, you had
occasion to arrest a man named Mike Collins and C. R. Ammons
A Yes sir, I arrested Mr. Ammons in front of the
City Hall.
Q Well, give us a thumb-nail sketch of the
incident of that arrest, please sir?
A Well, sir, at that time we were having a
demonstration in front of the City Hall and several officers
in front observing the crowd. I noticed Mr. Ammons walking
down the street with his hands in his pocket going toward
the people that were demonstrating. I turned and started
toward him and about the time I got to him Officer Gordon
arrived too. Officer Gordon caught Mr. Ammons, who had
his hand in his pocket like this (demonstrating), he caught
Mr. Ammons by the arm.
Q How close was Mr. Ammons at that time to any
member of the group in the demonstration?
A I would say about the distance I am to you,
approximately 1 5 to 1.8 feet.
Q, Is that about 12 or 15 feet?
A Yes sir.
Q, Did he have a pistol in his pocket?
A Yes sir, he had a Smith & Wesson 38 in his
Pocket.
Q What was his condition with reference to
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 705 A
sobriety or drunkenness?
A He was in a drunken condition.
MR. R A W L S : He's with you.
BY THE CO U R T :
Q One question I want to clear up before we get
any further: The original statement of the witness was
"we were having a demonstration in front of the City Hall",
who was having the demonstration?
A There were several Negroes on the sidewalk,
praying and chanting.
Q, Is that the demonstration you referred to?
A Yes sir,
Q Allright, go ahead.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. C. B. KING:
Q Mr. Slaughter, is it not true that that is
not the first man that you've had the occasion to disarm?
A That's true.
Q No further questions.
MR. RAWLS: Come down.
MR. ALLEN CHURCHUELL
20th witness called and sworn in
behalf of Plaintiffs, testified
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RAWLS:
0 You are Mr. Allen Churchwell?
A T h a t 's right.
Q What buriness, if any, do you operate here in
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 706a
the City of Albany?
A Department store.
Q What Is the specialty with reference to what
you sell?
A Just general line of regular dry goods?
THE COURT: Can you hear him? Will you
speak a little louder?
A The Witness: General line of dry goods.
Q Mr. Rawls: Do you recall any occasions
In late January or early February, when the Albany Movement
made any announcement relative to the patronizing of down
town merchants?
A Now, I don't know - you've got a date; I don't
know what you're referring to.
Q I exhibit to you, Mr. Churchwell, a document,
which has been identified as PLAINTIFFS' Exhibit No. 1,
and I will ask you to look at it - it's dated March, 19 6 2 -
I’ll ask you to look at it and see If you recall having
received any similar communication from the Albany Movement?
A Yes •
Q You have?
A Yes •
0. Mr. Churchwell, have you checked your business
operations, so as to be able to answer what effect, if
a7y, the activities of the Albany Movement have had on
y°ur business?
A Well, I can't answer your question because we
don't keep any records as pertaining to such, to compile
H e a r in g on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 7 07A
such information.
Q Have you ever had any occasion to talk to Dr.
Anderson or any other member of the Albany Movement relative
to what demands they were making?
A I talked to the Rev. G. Grant. He came to my
place of business. And that's the only one that I have
talked to in the period of time up to recently.
Q Well,, I'll ask you this question: Have the
activities of the Albany Movement, with its boycott and
picketing, had any adverse effect on your business?
A I would say so.
MR. HOLLOWELL: If it please the Court, that's
a leading question, No, 1; and No, 2, It's a conclusion
of the pleader, not based upon any foundation that
has been laid with this witness. He asked him had
these activities as he described them had any adverse
effect, Instead of simply asking him had there been
any effect and, of course, here again he's leading him.
THE COURT: Are you objecting, Mr. Hollowell,
that there has been no showing that there has been
any picketing, is that the point?
MR. HOLLOWELL: There hasn't been any by this
witness.
THE COURT: Well, other witnesses have
testified about It; and I'm not clear exactly what
your objection is.
MR. HOLLOWELL: My objection in this instance
is whether or not - he said, as I recollection the
H e a r in g on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No, 727 7 0 8A
question, whether or not there has been any adverse
effect to his business by, and he listed these things.
And I would submit that this is leading.
THE COURT: Well, I see your point. I think
maybe, Mr. Rawls, the objection is good as stated.
In other words, suppose you first ask him if there
has been any picketing of his place.
MR. R A W L S : Yes sir.
Q Mr. Churchwell, where is your store in Albanylocated ?
A In the 100 block of North Washington Street,
1 1 0 .
Q Has there been any occasion or been any picket
ing by the colored people in front of your place of business?
A There has been on several occasions.
Q Now, I will ask you whether or not that
picketing as you've described, has or not adversely affected
your business?
A Well, that goes only in a matter of opinion.
I have an opinion in regards to it.
Q But what facts that you know is your opinion
based upon?
A Well, my opinion is based on the fact that
it seems that fewer people are there; and also the effect
that it has on all people when it is going on, when picketing
is going on.
MR. HOLLOWELL: Well, of course, Your Honor,
the effect that It has on all people is purely
H e a rin g on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 709A
speculative and a conclusion. There is no information
or evidence that he has contacted or that he has had
any psychological training which would enable him
to form such a conclusion.
THE COURT: I sustain the objection to the
question, I mean to the portion of the answer which
relates to all people.
MR. RAWLS: H e !s with you.
THE COURT: Just a moment before you begin
your cross examination. 1 will allow the witness
to testify, If you wish him to do so, about the
effect that it apparently had on people In patron
izing his store and about his observation of them;
but not with regard to all people. Do you have any
opinion about that?
A The Witness: Well, I received this in
this morning's mail (producing document). . .
MR. HOLLOWELL: May it please the Court, I would
submit that whatever it is that he has received is
not responsive.
THE COURT: You may answer the question that
I propounded without reference to any document which
you have there, if you have any, without any reference
to the exhibit?
The Witness: How do you put the question now?
THE COURT: Well, I don't care to pursue
it myself. I was just trying to solve the situation
about the objection that counsel made.
H e a r in g on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 710A
I don't care to ask him any
All right, is there any cross
MR. RAWLS:
more questions.
THE COURT:
examination?
MR. RAWLS: You may come down.
THE COURT: Just a moment.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. C. B. KING:
Q Mr. Churchwell, you indicated that there
have been persons at one time or another who have picketed
in front of your store?
A T h a t 's right.
Q Is that correct?
A Y e s .
Q How many have you seen at any one given time?
A Well, the picketing that 1 have seen has been
in the 100 block of North Washington Street, four at a time;
and i t ’s been, in other words, a quarter of a block on each
side, a half a block on each side of the street.
Q This is to say two pickets on either side?
A On either side, four in all, in the 100 block
of Washington Street.
Q. Now, where is your business located, on what
side of Washington Street Is your business?
A It's on the east side of the street.
Q On the east side of the street?
A T h a t ’s right.
Q How many pickets were on your side of the street?
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 711A
A O n e .
Q One?
A In that half-a-block, and across the street
there was another one.
Q. Was he carrying a sign? Was he carrying a sign?
A That's right.
Q Do you remember what it said?
A No.
Q, What is the policy of your department store as
relates to Negroes?
A Well, I would like a little more specific
question than t h a t .
Q Do you in any manner differentiate between
Negro patrons and white patrons?
A You mean in what respect?
Q In the facilities that your store affords?
A Well, we have — --
Q Do you have toilets for all of the patrons of
your store?
A We d o n ’t have toilets, no.
MR. RAVILS: Now, if Your Honor please, we
object to that upon the ground that we h a d n ’t even
anticipated asking Mr. Churchwell to testify to that.
He's not cross-examining him on anything that we
brought out or undertook to bring out with Mr.
Churchwell; so, he cannot cross examine on that
ba s i s .
THE COURT: Yes, Mr. King, that question
H e a r in g on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 712 A
of facilities in his store for patrons,, whatever
It is., I can't see that that has any bearing —
MR. KING: If Your Honor please --
THE COURT: Just a moment, just a moment'
You see, he was examined on direct only on the
question of had his store been picketed and, if so,
what effect It had on his business, and that's all.
Now, you can go Into any of the features of the
picketing that you with to go Into, or into any
evidence that it has not adversely affected his
business or that it has helped his business, anything
like that. But any of the facilities inside of his
store would have no pertinency with regard to the
direct examination.
MR. KING: If Your Honor pleases, I believe
that by establishing that there has been picketing,
it certainly puts the Defendants In the posture of
not being able to explain what needs to be explained
and that Is the motivation behind the picketing Itself.
THE COURT: I will take judicial notice,
If it is necessary, that whoever was doing the picket
ing was claiming some grievance with regard to the
establishment being picketed.
MR. KING: If Your Honor pleases, I would
submit that It needs to be extended, not some
grievance. The grievance has been addressed by prior
testimony, elicited from Dr. Anderson. Segregation
Is the causation.
H e a r in g on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 713A
THE COURT: I will take judicial notice
that that Is the basis of it; so, i t ’s not necessary
to go Into any detail on It.
All right, anything further from this witness?
(No response by defense counsel)
Anything further from the witness, Mr. Rawls?
Q Mr. King: There Is one other question
I would like to ask: Mr. Churchwell, in your observation
of such picketing that has been done at one time or another
in your block on your side of the street, did you have an
occasion to see the pickets arrested?
A Well, I think on one occasion I did. I don't
know whether they were arrested. I didn't see them put in
jail.
Q, You did see the police officer take them in
custody, is that correct, sir?
A Well, I saw the police officer talking to them
and I take for granted —
Q Did you see them go away with the police officer,
sir?
A On one occasion, yes, that I happened to be on
the street.
Q What was the picket doing at the time the
Policeman came up?
A Well now, I couldn't tell you that, other than
Picketing.
Q Other than picketing, thank you.
THE COURT: Anything further?
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 714 a
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RAWLS:
Q Your Honor, I desire to ask Mr. Churchwell
another question or two: I'll ask you, is It your opinion
that the activities that have existed In Albany since
December, 1 9 6 1 , in connection with the operation of the
Albany Movement, had any effect on your business?
A I would say so.
MR. HOLLOWELL: May it please the Court, there
is no testimony that this man has even been observing
or Is aware of the activities of the Albany Movement.
MR. RAWLS: I'll ask him that question first.
THE COURT: Very well.
Q Mr. Rawls: Are you familiar or have you
been advised, or do you know anything about the activities
of the Albany Movement?
A Other than a letter and other than talking to
who 1 took was from that organization, and was In confer
ence for about an hour and a half with him. That's all.
Q Mr. Churchwell, I hand you an envelope and a
document, which I believe you left at my office, to refresh
your recollection?
MR. HOLLOWELL:
MR. RAWLS:
A The Witness:
defense counsel)
Is that one I've seen?
No, I'll show it to you though.
Yes sir. (Document tendered to
MR. HOLLOWELL: I believe, Your Honor - I would
have to check this out - but 1 believe this is the
Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 715A
same thing that h e ’s shown him, which is already
marked as an exhibit.
MR. RAWLS: Well, we'll let the witness
testify to It.
MR. HOLLOWELL: What I'm saying is, it would be
completely repetitious.
•THE COURT: Well, he might want to introduce
it because this is the one this particular witness
received.
Q Mr. Rawls: Mr. Churchwell, I ’ll ask you If
you did receive this document, which is marked PLAINTIFFS'
EXHIBIT #18, on or about March 10, 1 9 6 2?
A I did.
Q, You did?
A Y e s .
Q, Now, I'll ask you whether or not the activities
of - I'll ask you to look at the top of the letter and see
whether or not It says "The Albany Movement, Dr. W. G.
Anderson"?
A At the top it says "The Albany Movement,
headquarters," and Anderson signed it.
Q Now, I'll ask you whether or not the activities
that have been carried on since you received this letter
have or have not affected the operation of your business?
MR. HOLLOWELL: Again, Your Honor, I object
to it. In the first place, he's made no specification
in that question, "whether or not the activities".
The question is too broad, too general, plus h e ’s
H e a r in g on Motion for Preliminary Injunction No. 727 716a
already asked the same question before.
THE COURT: Specify what activities you're
referring to, Mr. Rawls.
MR. RAWLS: Of the Albany Movement?
THE COURT: Ask him specifically about
the particular activities! either you ask him or the
witness testify.
Q Mr. Rawls: Marching* boycotting* picketing*
those activities?
A I think It's had an effect on business.
Q Has the effect been good or bad?
A Well* I think the effect has been bad on business.
Q Do you have any knowledge concerning the attitude
of any out-of-town customers you may have relative to coming
to Albany to patronize your store?
A That would be too general. I don't know of
any particular individuals that I could cite from out of
town with regards to your question.
MR. RAWLS: He's with you.
THE COURT: Anything further?
MR. KING: Yes* Your Honor.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. KING:
Q I believe* Mr. Churchwell* in response to
counsel's question as to whether business was bad* how bad?
A Now* he didn't ask that question but if you want
to answer it* I can give you a broad general idea.
Q. Don't you have books* sir* by which you would
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 717A
be able to specify how bad i t ’s been?
A Well now, business hasn't been so bad as
compared - our sales through the month of July was $5,000
less than it was the year before, from January up through
July.
Q, Then, are you in a position to determine what
has occasioned it?
A Well, I have my opinion.
Q, What Is your opinion, sir?
A My opinion, we have had the effect on the people,
you take during the picketing or during the excitement
i t ’s had an effect on everybody, even to the extent of
personnel that work in places of business.
Q Will you be more specific, sir? What persons,
what places of business?
A What?
Q I say, would you be more specific?
A I'm talking about, I'm primarily interested
in Churchwell's Store.
THE COURT: Are you talking about your
store? Is that what you're talking about?
A The Witness: That's right. I'm talking about
my store.
Q Mr. King: There is one other question I
would like to ask you, sir: Has your business dropped off
because Negroes stayed out of It?
A I would have to say yes.
H e a r in g on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No, 727 718A
Q Then., I take It that this is what you mean
when you say "adverse effect"?
A That's one phase of It.
Q What is the other., sir?
A Well, I received this In this morning's mail.
May I make a statement about it? This is the effect on a
customer.
MR. KING: If Your Honor pleases --
THE COURT: You can testify about specific
customers, if you know.
A The Witness: Well, I have a name and address.
THE COURT: All right, you can testify
about that.
A The Witness: This person has a lay-away
at the store and he enclosed a money order this morning.
"Please take one dollar on each lay-away; tried to come
to town soon; been staying away because of niggers. Thanks."
Q M r . K i n g : May I see that, sir?
A That came in the morning's mail (handing document
to defense counsel) . . .
Q Then, I take it, sir, that the person who wrote
this --
A I don't even know the person that wrote that.
Q But I simply wanted to call to the Court's
attention and to the reporter's attention that the person
so writing It indicates that the cause was "because of
Negroes", is that correct?
A I would take it she meant the activities; Now,
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 719A
that's what I would take it to mean.
Q But, as a matter of fact, the only thing that
communication says is "because of Negroes", is that right?
A Well, you saw the paper.
THE COURT: Anything further from this
witness?
MR. RAWLS: We have nothing further, Your
Honor.
Q, Mr. King: There is one other question
I would like to ask: Have you got any other such letters,
sir?
A No, that's the only communication in writing
I have had.
Q, No further questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RAWLS:
Q You said communication in writing; have you
had any verbal communication from customers relative to
the matter, by telephone or personal conversation?
A Mr. Rawls, it's hard to say because you get to
you get down to the point in asking me what and when and why
and I can't answer that.
0 I didn't ask you when but I just asked you
have you had any?
A I know but it would come; and general knowledge
is something —
Q The period we're now talking about is from
December, 1 9 6 1 up to the present time, Allen, and I didn't
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No, 727 720A
ask you why?
A Well, I would just — in other words, it's
something that I can pin-point. In other words, I want
to say what I can pin-point on it and I can't pin-point that.
Q, Do you know whether you've had any verbal
personal, by looking at you in the face, or telephone
statements from customers similar to the one you showed
counsel for the other side that's in writing?
A Mr. Rawls, I've had, I have had knowledge of
things but as far as specific testimony I can't give
that. I don't want to give anything unless it's what I
know.
Q, All right, thank you.
THE COURT: You may go down.
MR. R A W L S : Your Honor, we would like
for the Clerk to identify this note that Mr.
Churchwell testified about as one of our exhibits.
THE CLERK: P-19.
R E C E S S : 11:00 AM to 11; 15 AM 8-3-62
MR. PROCTOR M, JOHNSTON, JR.
21st witness called and sworn In
behalf of Plaintiffs, testified
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RAWLS:
Q Have you been sworn?
A No sir. (Witness sworn) . . .
0, You are Proctor Johnston, Jr.?
A That's right, sir.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 721A
Q Mr. Johnston,, do you together with your father
operate a business in Albany?
A Yes sir.
Q Where is that business located?
A 230 Pine Avenue, sir.
Q I'll ask you whether or not that is in the area
between the City Hall and Lane's Drug Store?
A Yes, it is.
Q, And I'll ask you whether or not that's on the
south side of the street?
A Yes, It Is.
Q Mr. Johnston, do you know anything about the
activities of the Albany Movement, so called Albany Movement?
A Only that they have initiated boycott on the
downtown merchants.
Q Well now, what effect •— has the boycott activi
ties of the Albany Movement had any effect on your business?
A It's had an indirect effect, in that our white
customers have been afraid to come to town to shop, due
to the demonstrations that have been going on outside of
our store and in that general area.
Q Do you testify that the demonstrations and
inarches by your store have impaired your patronage in
your store?
A Very definitely, yes sir.
Q, Do you have any - have you looked at your
records to see whether there has been any depreciation
in your gross profit?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 7 2 2 A
A Only during the months of November and December
1 9 6 1. As you know, in the clothing business, that is
our busy time of the year. We either make it or we
don't. And during the months of November and December,
19 6 1, we estimate that we lost approximately $ 1 0 ,0 0 0
gross, and we arrived at those figures by comparison
with I960 figures for the same two months.
Q Do you attribute that to the boycott activities?
A Yes sir, I do. Only about one-half of one
per cent, of our total customers are Negroj but, as I
said before, our white customers from surrounding areas
and local white customers are afraid to come to town.
We've had them call up and ask us to deliver merchandise
because they were afraid to come to town.
MR. RAWLS: H e ’s with you.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. C. B. KING:
Q Mr. Johnston, you said that there were white
customers who were afraid to come to town because of
patronage which was withheld by Negroes in this community?
A I did not say that, no.
0 What did you say?
A I said that our white customers were afraid to
come to town because of the marching and demonstrations
of the Negro citizens in front of our store.
q I see. What patrons were afraid to come to
town?
Hearing On Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 723A
A I don't remember any specific names but I did
have numbers of phone calls.
Q, As a matter of fact, sir., what this deficit
as compared with the preceding year's receipts was
occasioned by, do you, sir?
A I gave you an estimate. I do not know the exact
figure, no.
Q And you do not know the exact cause either,
do you, sir?
A I told you what I thought the exact cause was.
Q, What is the address of your business, sir?
A 230 Pine Avenue.
Q As the location of your business relates to the
City Hall, where is It?
A I would say it's on the main street.
Q Well, in what direction from the City Hall is it?
A It's between the City Hall and Court Avenue.
Q As a matter of fact, your business then is
east of the City Hall, Is that correct, sir?
A That's correct.
Q. This is to say it is in the direction of
Washington Street?
A That's correct.
Q And not towards Jackson Street?
A That's correct.
Q Then, I take it sir, that what you are saying
is that a number of people walking up North Jackson
Street from Broad Avenue, or more specifically, from
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 724A
South Jackson Street north on Jackson Street, they would
get to the City Hall much before they would get to your
business, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q, Then, any persons coming to the City Hall from
the direction that I have indicated would not have an
occasion to pass your business, is that correct?
A No, as long as they stopped at the City Hall,
they wouldn't get to my business.
Q, No further questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RAWLS:
Q Do all of them stop at the City Hail?
A No sir, they do not stop at the City Hall for
any length of time.
Q I'll ask you whether or not on any occasion
when these parades and demonstrations were going on that
the entrance to your store was blocked in any way?
MR. KING: If Your Honor pleases, I would
object to the question as put. It's very obviously
leading. It pre-supposes something which has not
been testified to.
THE COURT: Well, it would be so easy to
get at it another way. Suppose you rephrase your
question.
Q Mr. Rawls: I ask you whether or not during
these demonstrations large crowds of people gathered in
front of your store who were not customers of your store?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 7 25 A
A Yes sir, they did.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR, KING:
Q. When was this, Mr. Johnston?
A I don't recall any dates. It's happened on
numerous occasions; one occasion when there were pickets
in front of the store, not specifically my store but
pickets walking up and down the street. Also on numerous
occasions when a number of marchers, marching up and down
the street, singing and chanting, the entrance was then
blocked.
Q You were still in this same location then as
you are now, is that correct?
A That's correct, no move.
Q Now, were these pickets you mentioned arrested?
A I don't remember.
q Well, what happened to them, you were observing
them, weren't you?
MR. RAWLS: Now if Your Honor pleases,
I don't see how that could be relevant to this
testimony, what happened to the pickets.
THE COURT: I think it would because he's
testified that pickets interfered; and I think it's
pertinent cross examination. Go ahead.
A The Witness: I had a customer slip in the
back door and I went to wait on him; so, I didn't see
what happened to the pickets.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. J2J 726A
q Mr. King: Then, I take it, it was only
on one occasion when this happened, is that true?
A With the pickets, yes. With the marchers, it
happened on more than one occasion.
Q, How many times was it?
A I can't tell you exactly. I would say 2 or 3-
Q And when was this?
A When the demonstrations first started in
November
Q
happened
A
Q
A
Q
A
and December.
Then, sir, you are saying that this hasn't
since over a period of 7 or 8 months?
Yes, it has.
When was it?
You want the date? I don't have it.
Well, can you approximate it?
My memory fails me.
Your memory fails you; no further questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RAWLS:
Q I'll ask you if your business is close enough
to the City Hall, that when there's any undue congregation
of people in front cf the City Hall, whether it extends
back to your store or not?
A Well, my business is located on the corner
of Court Avenue and Pine Street. It 's somewhat of a
corner, and naturally anything going on at the City Hall,
that is one of the places that people congregate to watch
what is going on.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 727A
Q Does the aggregation of people who accumulate
In front of your store on such occasions Interfere with
the operation of your business?
A Certainly it does, because if you've got an
accumulation of people there blocking your entrance, be
they white or Negro, ladies are not going to proceed on
down the street to shop.
ME., KING: I would object to this latter
statement he made as a very obvious conclusion; that
is, xfhat ladies will not do and the cause as to why
they won't. It is highly speculative, in consequence
of which I would request that it be stricken.
THE COURT: Yes, I strike that last part
of his answer as being pure speculation. I will
allow him to testify about whether he observed
whether they did o.r not, but not to speculate about
what they would do or would not do.
q Mr. Rawls: Do you know of your own knowledge
that the presence of the group actually impeded people or
interfered with people who were undertaking to come Into
your place of business?
A As I said before, I've had phone calls. On one
occasion a lady stated that she had started to town and
saw the crowd gathering in front of the City Hall on Pine
Street and in front of our store and turned around and went
home. She later called me to deliver a Christmas present.
q How about the presence of police officers going
along undertaking to keep the crowd moving; does that
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 7 2 8 a
have any effect on your situation?
A I can't speak for ray customers; it makes me
feel uneasy.
Q, It has an adverse effect on you personally,
does It?
A It does.
MR. HOLLOWELL: I ask that that last be stricken,
THE COURT: Yes, I sustain that.
MR. RAVILS: No further questions.
THE COURT: You may go down.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. KING:
Q 1 think perhaps there is one other question
I would like to ask: I believe that your store is
virtually in front of the county courthouse, is that
correct?
A That's correct.
Q I ask you further that on innumerable occasions
when a dress parade from the local military bases are
held, the reviewing stand is in that general location;
is that correct?
A On the other side of the street from our store.
MR. RAWLS: Now, if Your Honor pleases, I
object to that question, including the answer,
on the ground that it's entirely Illegal, irrelevant
and immaterial.
THE COURT: Mr. King, I'm not clear exactly
the pertinence of that. Will you explain to me what
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 729A
you think the pertinence is?
MR. KING: If Your Honor pleases, he has
testified as to the number of people who apparently
are attracted In this area as a result of certain
protestations taking place in the area of the City
Hall. My Interest here is establishing whether or
not on innumerable occasions there haven't been
parades more immediately in proximity to his store;
and I would certainly be Interested to know whether
this has an effect on his business.
A The Witness: It very definitely does. It
hurts.
Q Mr. King: Then, I ask you, sir, by way
of comparison of thenumber of people who are attracted
and who are physically present in the area where these
parades are concerned and these military parades are
concerned far exceed those which are occasioned as a
result of protestations in the area of the City Hall?
A Yes, the number would exceed those but the
parades are advertised.
Q No further questions.
MR. Ah MORRIS
Witness called and sworn In
behalf of Plaintiffs, being
RECALLED, testified further
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. RAWLS:
Q Mr. Morris, do you have with you the tape that
you played here in the presence of the Court yesterday?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 730A
A Yes sir, I do.
Q Will you deliver It to me, please?
A (Witness handing tape to counsel for Plaintiffs)
Q This is the tape which you played?
A Yes sir.
THE COURT: I notice counsel said the tape
you played yesterday; to be sure it is correctly
identified, I want you to explain —
MR. RAWLS: There wasn't but one tape played,
Your Honor, I don't believe.
A The Witness: This was played day before
yesterday. I was in Atlanta yesterday.
Q, Mr. Rawls: What is this a tape of?
A It's a tape of the voice of Dr. Anderson and
Rev. Abernathy and some singing.
Q, Is it or not the same tape which you played on
your machine here on the desk day before yesterday?
A Yes, it is.
MR. RAWLS: He's with you.
MR. HOLLOWELL: We just want to renew our
objection Inasmuch as It was under the testimony of
this witness only small excerpts from a total program,
No. 1. And No. 2, it's an impression of an original
without the original having been produced. And No. 3*
it was so erratic that it was too difficult to under
stand so as to be sure that this was the thing that was
actually said by those whose voices the witness
testified were being portrayed.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No.727 731A
THE CLERK: P-20 (Tape recording).
THE COURT: I will rule on the objection
when it is offered in evidence. It hasn't been
offered yet.
MR. RAWLS: Call the Defendant., Charlie
Jones, for the purpose of cross-examination.
MR. CHARLES JONES
one of the Defendants, called by
Plaintiffs as adverse party, being
first duly sworn, testified on
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. RAWLS:
Q, You are Charlie Jones, one of the Defendants?
A Charles Jones, yes.
Q What connection, if any, do you have with the
Non-Violent Coordinating Committee? What is your title
with that aggregation?
A I'm a field secretary for the Student Non-Violent
Coordinating Committee.
Q, Do you have any Communistic connection? Are
you a Communist yourself?
A No.
Q Or do you have any Communistic connections?
A No.
Q What is your - you've already stated your
title; now, who is your local representative of the Student
Non-Violent Coordinating Committee here in Albany?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 732A
A There are several persons here in Albany who
have been here for some 8 or 9 months., since October
and November, all of which see representatives. There
is no special representative as such.
Q Is It an unincorporated association or a
corporation?
A It is an unincorporated assocatlon of
individuals.
Q
A
Q.
A
Q,
A
interested
Q
Where is its principal office?
The principal location is in Atlanta, Georgia.
Does it have a board of directors?
Could you define "board of directors"?
You know what a board of directors is, don't you?
Theoretically, the function Is the thing I'm
in. We have --
I'm talking about a board that Is the governing
body?
A
Coordinating
Q
A
staff, along
Q
A
Q
The policies of the Student Non-Violent
Committee.
Is there a policy board?
Yes, it's made up of most of the members of the
with some advisers.
Who are they?
The members of the staff or the advisers?
Yes?
A Which, all of them?
Q, All of them?
A Well, James Foreman, Charles McDew, Charles
Sherrod, Bill Mansen, Reginald Robinson, Charles Jones,
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. J2J 733A
Norma Collins, Mrs. Ella - Miss Ella Baker; Dr. Martin
Luther King; Harry Bellafonte, Harry Golden.
THE COURT: Is he from North Carolina?
A The Witness: North Carolina., Charlotte,
yes. Ralph Allen, Paul Brooks, Cordell Reagin, Robert
Zellner, Connie Curry - Constance Curry, Tim Jenkins,
As of now, I think this would pretty much exhaust the
immediate persons that are working in connection with
Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee.
Q Mr. Rawls: Do you have any knowledge
concerning whether or not any person you've named has any
Communistic affiliation or connection?
A To my knowledge, they have no Communistic
affiliations or connections.
Q Are you paid a salary?
A No.
Q You're not?
A N o .
Q Well, how do you subsist?
A At times I wonder. We have a main office
that does provide us when necessary with subsistence,
such to be determined by our own means of living. This
can be consistent In terms of annually, each week; usually
It isn't but it comes when It Is needed.
Q, I exhibit to you PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT #3, which
is entitled "The Student Voice", dated February 1 9 , 1962,
and I ’ll ask you to indicate whether or not that is an
authentic copy of that publication?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No, 727 734A
A Yes, these are authentic copies of what is
called "The Student Voice".
Q Is that the official publication of The Student
Voice, a copy of it?
A Y e s .
Q As a matter of fact, it is mimeographed and
run off under your supervision, isn't It, or your staff,
people that are working in connection with you?
A Individual persons use what we have been using
as an office to run this off, yes.
MR. RAWLS: Mark that as an exhibit.
(Exhibit handed to counsel for Defendants) . . .
Q I exhibit you two documents, one marke P-li,
which is entitled "Citywide prayer vigil", and another
one marked P-21, which Is entitled "Remember this week";
and I will ask you if you have any knowledge or information
concerning the publication of either one or both of those
hand-bills or pamphlets, whatever you want to call them?
A I have no knowledge of the publication of
these pamphlets. I have some knowledge of some of the
incidents involved In "Remember this week"; Mrs. Marian
King being slapped and kicked, Dr1. Martin Luthern King
being arrested, Bill Hansen being beaten, C. B, King
being struck by Sheriff Campbell. But as far as the
publication is concerned, I have no knowledge of who
or at what point it was done.
Q, You have no knowledge of the publication or
distribution of either one of those pamphlets?
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 735A
A No., I don't.
Q Did you make a speech to any group or make a
statement to any group after Judge Elliott issued the
temporary restraining order in this case, which was served
on you on July 21; did you make the statement to any group
that night that you had been enjoined but that there wasn't
any reason why they shouldn't march if they wanted to?
Did you make any such statement as that?
A Would counsel identify which group? I spoke
to many groups that particular night.
Q Well, I asked you as to any group; did you tell
any group of persons any statement similar to what I have
stated there?
MR. HOLLOWELL: May it please the Court, I
object to the statement as made. It's one thing
to make that statement and another thing to make
some statement similar. And I think it is too broad
in its scope.
THE COURT: All right, l e t ’s bring it
down and ask him if he made that statement; and
depending upon what his answer is to that, you may
ask him if he made one similar.
Q Mr. Rawls: Did you make the statement
that I asked you about?
A I don't recall making that statement.
MR. HOLLOWELL: Just a moment.' Excuse me just
a moment. He still has asked two and I want to know
which one we're talking about.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 73 o A
Q Mr. Rawls: I'm asking you about a statement
that was made on Saturday night* July 21* after you had
been served with the restraining order in this case?
THE COURT: Mr. Rawls* may I suggest that
you treat it this way* that you asked him specifically.
You recited it once. Ask him specifically whether he
made that statement or not. If he says he did* all
right* then i t ’s in the record. If he says he didn't*
then you can ask him whether he made any statement
similar to that. In other words* let's have it clear
exactly what you're talking about.
Q. Mr. Rawls: Well* I'm asking you now* No. 1*
did you make the specific statement to any group -
MR. H3LL0WELL: What group* what specific
statement?
MR. RAWLS: I'm fixing to say the specific
statement* Your Honor.
THE COURT: Just a moment . . . All right.
Q Mr. Rawls: -- to the effect that you had
been served with an injunction that prohibited you from
participating in a march* but there wouldn't be any reason
why your hearers couldn't so participate?
A No* I don't recall having made that statement.
Q, Did you make any statement of similar import?
A I would say what statement I made* not saying
it was of similar import or not. I would say what I did
say in regard to the restraining order to a group of people
who were assembled at Shiloh Church on the night of January 21.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 7 2 7 737A
In attempting to explain what this restraining
order., In my very limited understanding of Its implications,
I indicated that I had been served., along with - at least
had been cited, I didn't know whether they had been served
or not - some eight other persons; and that the injunction
addressed itself or the restraining order addressed itself
to the "Illegal picketing, illegal demonstrations",
unlawfully I think specifically pointed out.
And I said I felt I must recognize, untL1 such
time as I more clearly understood what it meant, this
restraining order, even to the point of not engaging in
any activities which even in my mind were clearly not
illegal but may have some interpretations as to their
legality or unjust application.
I further stated that any matter in which the
persons involved in the Albany Movement engaged in was
purely a matter of personal commitment. If they felt
that such a restraining order should restrain them,
fine; if they felt such a restraining order should not
restrain them, then they must make up in their own minds
what they were to do, being fully aware of the consequences.
This was the essence of the statement I made to the group
that night.
Q Now, have you on any occasion ever encouraged
groups of juveniles to engage In what is the so-called
"sit-in" practices?
A Again, everything that I have been involved in
in the Albany Movement has been done as a basis of my own
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 738 a
personal commitment and on the basis in cooperation with
other persons of their personal commitments.
Now, you asked me if I encouraged juveniles to
sit in. I would say I have informed persons of what I am
going to do. If they so choose to respond, then this is
their own basic commitment.
Q As a matter of fact, you have sat in with them,
haven't you?
A I don't understand what you mean.
0, You have sat in with juveniles at these various
places, where you conducted these sit-in activities, haven't
you?
A I have been with other persons who have sat
at lunch counters, attempting to get service as any other
person in the City would attempt to get service, if this
is what you mean, yes.
0 Weren't you one —
A Whether they were juveniles or not, I d o n ’t know.
I don't check ages.
Q Were you one of the sit-in-ers that was sitting
up at the stool at a lunch counter, pretending you wanted
service, when you didn't have a cent of money in your
pocket?
A No.
Q You were not?
A No, I was at C r o w e 11 s Drug Store, when I was
arrested for loitering on a City Code that had been passed
five days before to deal with this kind of situation. I had
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No, 727 7 39A
ample money in my pocket to take care of whatever I would
have consumed there, had I had a chance to be served as
any other normal person,
Q You mentioned a while ago about your practice
of deciding what laws you would obey; now, would you
specify some law or regulation which is being enforced
in Albany that you regard as unjust and illegal?
A Yes.
Q All right, l e t ’s have them?
A The segregation laws of the parks, the bus
station,the library, the auditorium, the coliseum, the
schools; and the attempt through City Code to apply these
same segregated practices to theaters, to lunch-counters,
and any other private or public facility that excludes the
participation of Negroes on the basis of race.
Q Do you know of any reason why you should resort
to demonstrations and acts of violence, rather than resort
to the courts to enforce your so-called and claimed rights?
MR. HOLLOWELL: Well, we would object to that,
If Your Honor please, on two grounds: #1, there
is no testimony to the effect that this witness has
at any time participated in any Illegal or any acts
of violence, No. 1. And No. 2, it is argumentative.
THE COURT: Sustain the objection to the
question as asked. If you wish to rephrase it,
Mr. Rawls —
Q Mr. Rawls: Do you regard the City ordinance
with reference to regulation of parades and mass meetings
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 740A
in the category of illegality?
MR. HOLLOWELL: If it please the Court,, this
is further argumentative, No. 1. And No. 2, this
witness is not a lawyer, and not a judge.
THE COURT: Well, he's not asking him
whether they are illegal or not. He Is asking him
if he regards them that way.
MR. HOLLOWELL: Well, I would submit that this
requires him to make a legal interpretation of it.
THE COURT: I think it's an appropriate
question in view of the philosophy that he's
propounding in response to previous questions;
in other words, he has testified that the reason he
has done these things is because he's protesting
certain ordinances. I think it's an appropriate
question to ask him then if he regards these
ordinances as being illegal.
MR. HOLLOWELL: Well, there's some question in
my mind as to whether he means it is legal per se
or illegal or whether or not it is Illegal In the
manner in which It is applied.
THE COURT: I think it's clear enough.
I think It's clear enough to be answerable and I
don't think it's objectionable under the circumstances.
Go ahead and answer the question.
A The Wi t n e s s : For the record I would have
to clear up in my own mind, you said parades and mass
meetings. I have no knowledge of an ordinance yet
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No, 727 7^1 A
which has been enacted to prohibit mass meetings. But
I think this is what you covered. But as far as the parade
ordinance, first of all, I have never considered anything
I've done or in concert with other persons to be a parade.
As far as whether I feel the regulatory definition of these
ordinances Is illegal or on Its face, no. I again cannot
give a legal determination. The courts will have to do
this. But in its application I have most definitely felt
that it has been unjustly applied in an attempt, an obvious
attempt, to deny persons constitutionally guaranteed
rights of assembly to redress grievances, peaceful
protests, peaceful picketing and this kind of thing.
Q Mr. Rawls: You do understand that you
have a right to resort to the courts for legal redress
of any right that you contend is denied you, don't you?
MR. HOLLOWELL: Well, if it please the Court,
that's argumentative, No. 1, It calls for a legal
Interpretation, No. 2. And No. 3, there is nothing
that I know of in the law which gives this Court
jurisdiction to handle any type of legal claim
that he may be entitled to.
THE COURT: We went through this in connec
tion with a previous witness here on the stand. I
think it's a fair question and an appropriate
question to ask him whether he knows that he has
a right to go into the courts. That doesn't require
any legal conclusion on his part. I remember the
previous witness answered the same question by
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 7^2A
saying, no, that he did not know. And I know know
what the answer of this witness will be, but I think
it's appropriate. You may go ahead.
A The Witness: No, I don't know of any legal
proceeding that would allow us to get the City Commissioners
to sit down and talk about grievances. This is just one of
the things. I could say categorically, no; I don't know
of a legal procedure that would force a climax to the
things that we are concerned about here. There are many
things, many grievances that we have that I don't have any
idea at all could be resolved through a legal proceeding.
I think this is probably why the Constitution provided
for peaceful assembly, to bring these matters to the minds
of duly constituted bodies, so there could be something
resolved in a peaceful democratic way.
THE COURT: Anything further from this witness
MR. RAWLS: Nothing further, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may go down.
MR. RAWLS: Now, if Your Honor pleases,
we tender into the evidence the exhibits which
have been identified in the course of the proceedings:
P-1, "Albany Movement Headquarters" dated March,
1962, PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT N o .1.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. HOLLOWELL: If you would just hand them all
over as you get through with them, then I will
indicate those to which I do have an objection
and might save some time, if this is all right.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. J2J 7^3A
THE CO U R T : Now, just a moment., Mr. Rawls
let's see if there is anjr objection to this one
before you present the next one?
MR. R A W L S : What's that, Your Honor?
THE CO U R T : Let's see if there's any
objection before you present another. Is there any
objection to Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 1?
MR. HOLLOWELL: None to No. 1, sir.
THE C O U R T : It is admitted. (P-1)
MR. R A W L S : We offer P-2, Your Honor •
MR. HOLLOWELL: No objection.
THE CO U R T : It is admitted (P-2).
MR. R A W L S : P-3* Your Honor.
MR. HOLLOWELL: No objection.
THE C O U R T : It is admitted (P-3)
MR. R A W L S : P-4.
THE COURT: I haven't heard anything with
regard to ]?-4 yet?
MR. HOLLOWELL: No objection.
THE COURT: P-4 is admitted.
MR. R A W L S : P-5.
MR. HOLLOWELL: P-5.
THE COURT: P-5 is admitted.
MR. HOLLOWELL: 6.
THE CO U R T : P - 6 is admitted.
MR. R A W L S : 7.
MR. HOLLOWELL: 7.
THE COURT: P-7 is admitted.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 744A
MR. RAWLS:
MR. HOLLOWELL:
THE COURT:
MR. RAWLS:
P-8 .
8 .
P -8 is admitted.
P-9 is the rock that was
identified by the Trooper.
MR. HOLLOWELL: 9-
THE COURT: P-9
MR. RAWLS: No.
mirror.
is admitted.
10 is the mirror, the broken
MR. HOLLOWELL: That's the one that,what’s his
name, the gentleman's name —
THE CLERK: Red Wills.
MR. RAWLS: Big Red.
MR. HOLLOWELL: No objection.
THE COURT: P-10 is admitted.
MR. RAVILS: While my associate is looking
for No. 11, with Your Honor's permission I will
pass on to other exhibits that I do have.
THE COURT: Let's wait just a moment.
THE CLERK: That's the notice of prayer
meetings.
MR, RAWLS:
THE COURT:
MR. RAWLS:
MR. HOLLOWELL:
has identified it.
THE COURT:
Notice of what?
Those two hand-bills or pamphlets.
P-11.
We object to it, sirj nobody
What about that, Mr. Rawls?
We agree with that, Your Honor.MR. RAWLS:
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 7^5A
THE COURT: I don't recall it being identified.
(P-11 excluded)
MR. RAWLS: P-12 is certified copy —
THE COURT: Now, just a moment, we're still
on P-11 now. Objection has been made to P-11.
MR. RAWLS: I meant to say and I probably
didn't say it loud enough for Your Honor to hear, that
we do not insist that it has been sufficiently identi
fied.
THE COURT: P-11 is withdrawn.
MR. RAWLS: P-11 is withdrawn. We offer
P-12, which is a certified copy of City ordinances.
THE CLERK: Six of them.
MR. RAWLS: There are six certified copies
under the heading of P-12.
MR. HOLLOWELL: Of the same or different ordi
nances?
MR. R A W L S : They're different ordinances.
They're copies of the ordinances.
MR. HOLLOWELL: Let us just write down the numbers
of them..........No. 12.
THE COURT: P-12 is admitted.
MR. RAWLS: We offer next, if Your Honor
pleases as our No. 13* certificate from the Secretary
of State with reference to the Student Non-Violent
Coordinating Committee.
MR. HOLLOWELL: We don't have any major objec
tion, except to say that it is surplusage; and as far
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 7^6 a
as we're concerned is really irrelevant. The witness
has testified that it wasn't a corporation and all
this does is certify that it is nota corporation.
It would just be surplusage in the record.
THE COURT: Well, I will admit it. (P-13)
MR. RAWLS: We offer as P-l4 the same type
of certificate relative to The Albany Movement.
MR. HOLLOWELL: The same.
THE COURT: It is admitted. (P-l4)
MR. RAWLS: We offer P-15 to show certified
copy of the statement which was filed with the
Secretary of State relative to the National Association
for the Advancement of Colored People.
MR. HOLLOWELL: No objection.
THE COURT: It is admitted. (P-15)
MR. RAWLS: We offer as P-l6 similar
certificate from the Secretary of State relative to the
Southern Christian Leadership Conference.
MR. HOLLOWELL: No objection.
THE COURT: P-l6 Is admitted.
MR. R A W L S : We offer as P-17, Your Honor,
EXHIBIT "A” to the petition, which has been identified
by Dr. William G. Anderson,as being authentic.
MR. HOLLOWELL: No objection.
THE COURT: It is admitted (P-17).
MR. RAWLS: Now, we bring to the Court's
attention that our P-l8 is identical with P-1.
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 7^-7A
MR. HOLLOWELL: We concede that this is the same
as that o n e .
MR. RAWLS: And it would be duplication to
put that in.
THE COURT; All right, I t ’s withdrawn (P-l8 )
MR. RAWLS: We offer P-19 which is the
letter which was brought out on cross-examination
from Mr. Allen Churchwell.
MR. HOLLOWELL: We would object to this on the
ground, Your Honor, that It is not addressed to any
one; there is no envelope showing that it was In
fact mailed; there Is no enclosed address; and in
addition to that i t ’s irrelevant and immaterial.
THE COURT: Well, the witness testified
that he did receive that through the mail. He
testified to that; so, I will admit It (P-1 9 ).
MR. RAWLS: Now, Your Honor, we introduced
P-20, which is the tape which the witness testified is
what he played into the record day before yesterday.
MR. HOLLOWELL: Without repeating argument,
Your Honor, we want to renew the argument made at
the time that this was first used.
THE COURT: The record will show that you
are objecting to it on the same grounds previously
stated.
MR. HOLLOWELL: Yes.
THE COURT: It Is admitted (P-20)
Hearing on Motion For Preliminary Injunction No. 727 7^8A
MR. RAWLS: Now, if Your Honor pleases,
P-21 is In the same category as the other hand-bills
which when offered were objected to and we conceded
had not been established sufficient to be introduced
into evidence; therefore, we withdraw that exhibit.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. RAWLS: We rest.
P L A I N T I F F S R E S T
* # # # - *
(Renewed argument on defendants’ motion to dismiss)
THE COURT: Anything further? .............
If not, I deny the motion to dismiss, and * * *
we will proceed further in the case at 2 o'clock
Tuesday Afternoon, and we stand in recess until
that time
1;10 PM AUGUST 3 j 1962: HEARING RECESSED.