Gamble v. Josey Transcript of the Proceedings
Public Court Documents
September 17, 1965
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Gamble v. Josey Transcript of the Proceedings, 1965. ed00a9af-b29a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/39690483-8bad-4056-88e0-1721470e8d0b/gamble-v-josey-transcript-of-the-proceedings. Accessed May 12, 2025.
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF GEORGIA
DUBLIN DIVISION
REUBEN GAMBLE, ETAL
VS
WILLIAM D
)CIVIL ACTION NO.661
JOSEY ETAL
A TRANSCRIPT OF THE PROCEEDINGS
I N D E X T H E E V I D E N C ET 0
NAME PAGE
beverly B/’Ha y e s ........................................ 17
BEVERLY B. HAYES........... (RECALLED) 428
1. B. WILKES............................................. 33
WELL I AM D. JOSEY - . ......................................44
WLLIAM D. JOSEY -....... (RECALLED)...................172
RROLD E. WARD........................................... 99
AROLD E. WARD............ (RECALLED).................. 420
HROLD E. WARD Z (RECALLED ) *439
SANLEY R. HAHN......................................... 277
MLO TOMLINSON.......................................... 294
L---
W, R. BUSSELL........................................... 300
—VEIN ON L. De LOACH...................................... 320
HEJRY L. WALDEN
ARTHUR L. LANE, JR.
J. H. APPLEGATE ---
T. D. SIPLE -------
JHUNITA TUCKER ---
CHARLES MYRICK----
ROGER DEMMONS -----
REUBEN GAMBLE -----
-360
-389
-406
-414
-414
-461
-476
-503
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF GEORGIA
DUBLIN DIVISION
REUBEN GAMBLE, ETAL.,
PLAINTIFFS,
WILLIAM JOSEY, ETAL.,
DEFENDANTS.
)
)
)
)
)) CIVIL ACTION NO. 661.
)
)
)
)
)
A P P E A R A N C E S
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: MR. HOWARD MOORE,
Attorney at law,
Atlanta, Georgia.
MR. THOMAS JACKSON,
Attorney at law,
Macon, Georgia.
FOR THE DEFENDANTS: MR. BEVERLY B. HAYES,
Attorney at law,
Dublin, Georgia.
2
THE COURT: Now, Gentlemen, the case before us today is
the City of Dublin, Georgia, Shirley Bolden and Herman Kirkland,
a petition for removal, and there are two oth er companion cases
there - petition for removal - City of Dublin, Prosecutor, Vs
Gloria Outler, etal., petition for removal , and another petition
for removal is the City of Dublin, Prosecutor, Vs Gamble, etal.
The other case is Rueben Gamble and Rosa Lee Kirkland, on behalf
of themselves and all others similarly situated, as Plaintiffs,
Vs William Josey, Individually, and as Chief of Police of the
City of Dublin, Georgia, Defendant.
Now, who appears for the Plaintiffs and Defendants in
these cases?
MR. HAYES: I represent the City of Dublin in all the
cases, and I represent the defendant, Chief Josey, individually
and as Police Chief of the City of Dublin.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HAYES: My name is Beverly Hayes and I am City
Attorney of the City of Dublin.
THE COURT: All right. Now, wh4 represents the other
sides.?
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, the plaintiffs are represented
by myself, Howard Moore, of Atlanta, Georgia, and Thomas Jackson
of Macon, Georgia.
THE COURT: All right. Now, who is the young man there
without a coat?
3
MR. MOORE: He is one of the plaintiffs, Your H^nor.
We have another young man who --
THE COURT: (Interposing) That's all right. I was just
thinking about him not having a coat on. He is the only person
in the court room that hasn't got a coat on. I tell you what
you do --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) It is out in the car,Your
Honor.
THE COURT: All right, suppose you go and get your coat.
All right, then both sides are ready?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: you are ready too, are you not, Moore?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HAYES: Your Honor, I have some pleadings that I
want to file.
THE COURT: All right, take your time.
MR. HAYES: I didn't have a chance to serve them until
just now.
THE COURT: That's all right.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I would like to state the
reason why there was a slight delay, we were stopped by the
State Patrol.
THE COURT: How is that?
4
MR. MOORE: I say, we were stopped by a member of the
Georgia State Patrol but it turned out to be inconsequential,
and that occasioned a slight delay.
THE COURT: That's all right. Now, the first three cases,
they were filed first, so I presume we should try them first, how
ever we could try them all together. As 1 understand the facts
are the same and it is the same law. I am not rushing you all
but it just struck me that it would facilitate the matter, if
we could combine the cases, since the evidence is going to be
the same. What do you all say to that?
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I have not had an occasion to
examine the pleadings which has been served on me by Mr. Hayes.
If I could have a minute or two to examine them.
THE COURT: I will give you ample time to examine them.
I think it would be advantageous to both sides to try them all
together. Although, I haven't got anything else to do the balance
of the week. I have cancelled everything out for the balance of
the week for these cases. Suppose I do this, suppose I take out
for an hour and give you an opportunity to go through the plead
ings and you all see if you can reach that agreement, I mean as
to trying them all together. If you can't why, that's all right.
You go ahead and look over your pleadings. You are entitled to
ample time to do that. Both sides are entitled to ample time to
examine the pleadings. You said you have not had an opportunity
to examine the record. An hour will be ample time, won't it?
5
MR. HAYES: As far as the defendants, as far as we are
concerned, anytime the Court sets is all right.
THE COURT: Well, how about you all on the other side?
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I would say we should be ready
in about a half an hour.
THE COURT: All right, come back at a quarter of eleven.
Well, make it twelve o'clock. We will come back at twelve o'clock.
Take a recess until twelve o'clock.
THE MARSHAL: Take a recess until twelve o'clock.
(NOTE: Accordingly a recess was then had from 11:15,
A. M., until 12:00 o'clock, Noon, of the same day, at which time
the proceedings were resumed as follows.)
THE COURT: All right, are you all ready?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir, we are ready.
THE COURT: How about the other side? Are you ready?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir, we are ready.
THE COURT: And you are ready for the other side?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir, we are ready subject to a written
motion and objections with respect to the pleadings which haee
been filed on me by the defendant, Josey, denominated as "Answer
of Defendant Counter Claim."
THE COURT: On the Counter Claim. 1 just read that over
6
this morning. Supppee I withhold a ruling on that until I finally
determine the case. I am in doubts about whether he has a legal
right on that, but I am not making any ruling now, and I withhold
my ruling on your motion until --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) Well, I would like to state
my motion for the record,Ygur Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. MOORE: First, we would ;move to strike the counter
claim (1) because it fails to state a claim and (2) defendant,
Josey, has no standing to assert such a counter claim in this
action and (3) defendant, Josey, has a plain and adequate remedy
in
at law and (4) that iji/any event under the construction of the
pleadings the so-called counter claim would be a permissive counter
claim and the Court would have discretion not to entertain it at
this time.
THE COURT: Well, I am not going to rule on that at this
time. I should have asked you what your grounds were, but it is
the same thing I had in my mind, and that is what I am going to
do is to withhold my judgment on that until you complete your
evidence, and then when you do that, at a final determination
of the case I will rule on it, because I am not sure about it at
this time. I have not had an opportunity to examine it at this
time. All right, anything else?
MR. MOORE: And one other ground, and that is the defendant,
Josey, basis his counter claim and the legality of his actions upon
7
the ordinances of the City of Dublin, Georgia, set out as being
2622 of the Code and 2213 of the City Code, that they themselves
are unconstitutional in that they deny rights which are protected
by the First Amendment, association, assemblage and petition, and
which are made binding upon the City of Dublin by the Fourteenth
Amendment to the Constitution, and we take a further position,
which would be our fifth position, Your Honor, that these statutes,
as applied, are clearly unconstitutional.
THE COURT: I will take all of that into consideration
when I render my judgment in this case. Now, did you all agree
on the matter of consolidation of all the cases?
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, we have a motion here which I
think would be in order with respect to the question of consoli
dation, a copy of which I now serve upon opposing counsel, the
original of which I peesent to the Court.
THE COURT: All right. That is the cases for removal.
Now, what about the other case, the one against Mr. Josey there?
u/hat about that one? Are yot| willing to consolidate that with
all the other cases?
MR. MOORE: Not in a strict sense, Your Honor, but I
think the testimony that is given in the removal cases would perhaps
be relevant.
THE COURT: Well, I thought we could consolidate them
all, because the questions of fact are the same - well, I wouldnt
say the questions of fact are all the same, but the questions of
8
law, I think, are practically# the same thing. Now, if you all
won't agree to it, don't want to agree to it, I haven't got
another thing this week to do but try these cases.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I submit that the issues in the
injunction case, that is, Gamble against Josey, are perhaps larger
than the particular issues in the removal petition, but I do be
lieve that the matter would be expedited by hearing them together.
THE COURT: All right, then, do you agree to try them
all together, all the cases together? So, that there won't be
any misunderstanding the case of the City of Dublin Vs Shirley
Bolden and Herman Kirkland, and the City of Dublin Vs Gloria
Outler, Rosetta Lewis, Sammie Robinson, Charles Myrick, William
Holliman, Izell Wilcher, Edward Dunham, Mamie J,ou Vichers, Dianne
Kirkland, Joyce Ann Kirkland, Millie Frank Brown, Jimmie Underwood,
Joe Hubbard, James Dixon, Ralph Lttimore, Christine Wright, Ulysses
Evan, Larry Godfrey, Jerome Bullock, Frank Underwood, Rosa Lee
Kirkland and Jimmie Lee Guyton. And the City of Dublin Versus
- lets see - the next case is 1935. It is the City of Dublin
Vs Reuben Gamble, Robert Wilburn, Frank Stanley , Freddie Pooler,
Alfred Thomas, Charles Lattimore, Lewis Stanley, Norman Lindsey,
Eddie Howard Kinsley, Willis Turner, Willis Tucker, Robert Finley,
Kenneth Waters, John T. Gray, 111., Hodges Coney, Charles Lawson,
Walter Monroe, Earley Wells, Charlie Martin, Lauretha White, Winney
Howard, Bessie Todd, Barbara Todd, Patricia Scott, Gwendloyn Lewis,
Deloris Stanley, Imagene Thomas, Mattie McGirt, Anne Smith,Willie
9
Pearl Glover, Milliard Hall, Jr., Edward D. Robinson, Roger
Eemons, Leon Bbash, Jammy Jackson, Edward Thomas, Richard Sheffield,
Cecil Cortez Kinsey, Leroy Davis, Herman Sampson, Robert Reynolds,
Echol Knight, William Wood, Charlie Hightower, Louis Smith, Larry
Blash, McGraph Stephens and Regina Brantley. Now, that was 1735.
Now, 1734 is the City of Dublin, Prosecutor, Vs Gloria
Gloria Outler, Rosetta Lewis, Sammie Robinson, Charles Myrick,
William Holliman, Xzell Wilcher, Edward Dunham, Mamie Lou Vickers,
Dianne Kirkland, Joyce Ann Kirkland, Willie Frank Brown, Jimmie
Underhood, Joe Hubbard, James Dixon, Rajbph Lattimore, Christine
Wright, Ulysses Evans, Larry Godfrey, Jerome Bullock, Frank
Underwood, Rosa Lee Kirkland and Jimmie Lee Guyton.
Then case No. 661, that is Reuben Gamble and Rosa Lee
Kirkland on behalf of themselves and all others similarly situated
Vs. William Josey, Individually, and as Chief of Police of the
City of Dublin, Georgia, his agents, servants and employees,
successors and all persons in active concert and participation
with him.
Now, the question I want to propound to all counsel
is whether you all agree to consolidate all of these cases?
MR. MOORE: That is with respect to motions that are
presently before the Court, that is,the plaintiffs' motions in
number 661 for a preliminary injunction and their motions in
criminal Nos. 733 and 734 and 735 for further relief i n the
nature of an injunction against the illegal state court prosecution.
10
THE COURT: Well, what I am getting at is just a simple
matter, are you willing to consolidate all of these cases?
MR. MOORE: I don't want to take up too much time, Your
Honor, but --
THE COURT: (Interposing) That's all right.
MR. MOORE: I want to get it clear in my mind, that we
are consolidating the cases for the purposes of the hearing on the
motions which are now before the Court?
THE COURT: Well, I am not going to determine any motions
now before the court until after all the evidence is introduced
and then I will render my decision. I will render my judgment at
that time.
MR. MOORE: Well, Your Honor, can I put it another way?
Does the court mean by consolidating the cases --
THE COURT: (Interposing) Hear all the evidence together.
MR. MOORE: As they relate to the motions for further
relief and for a preliminary injunction.
THE COURT: Well, I will answer that by asking a question.
I hate to have all of this. Just answer yes or no. Are you willing
to consolidate these cases and try them together and, of course,
the evidence which do not pertain to some of the cases - of course,
some other evidence might come in - of course, I would consider
that in my judgment. I would not consider any illegal evidence,
of course. All I want to know is if you have any objections to
consolidating these cases?
11
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, my answer to that is yes, if
I can state my understanding?
THE COURT: If what?
MR. MOORE: If I can state my understanding, and that
is when the Court says consolidate, it means the hearing on the
motions now before the Court/
THE COURT: The hearing of everything before the court.
MR. MOORE: That is, the motion for further relief and
for a preliminary injunction, together with the motion to remand?
THE COURT: That is correct. Then you agree to that.
What do you say?
MR. HAYES: In answer to your question, as far as the
City of Dublin, Judge, and Chief Josey is eoncerned, yes.
THE COURT: All right, then we consolidate all the cases
that are to be tried at this time. Of course, that doesn't take
away from one case. I might find in favor of the plaintiffs in
some of the cases or the defendant in some of the cases. That is
what you had in mind, is it not,Counsel?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir, on the matters before the Court.
THE COURT: All right, I think that is clear, and there
is no objections.
MR. HAYES: Now, Your Honor, I believe the Court has
said that you will not pass on any motions at this time.
THE COURT: That is correct.
MR. HAYES: I want to call your attention in these three
12
for removal from the Recorder's Court - there are three separate
cases - to this Court we have a motion for dismissal in one of
those cases, and that is based on the fact that there are no such
cases pending in the Recorder's Court and have never been any such
cases, and then with reference to the two other cases that you
read out the long list of names on each case, we have a motion to
remand, and I just wanted to call your attention to that because
it would not require evidence. I believe they are to be passed
on as a matter of law.
THE COURT: Well, I will take that up, like I said, all
motions, I will take them up at the time I render my judgment. I
have tried to make it as clear as I could. I am just withholding
judgments on any of these motions.
MR. MOORE: I understood Mr. Hayes to say that he was
presenting a motion to remand to the court prely as a matter of
law?
MR. HAYES: I think it is a matter of law. However, the
motions are there for whatever they are presented for.
THE COURT: I should think it would be a question of law,
but I am not going to pass on that now. I am not going to pass
on anything now. I am having a hard time making myself understood.
What I have said five or six times is that I am not going to pass
on any of these motions at this time and I understood that was
with the consent of counsel?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
13
THE COURT: Until I render my judgment, and I will render
my judgment on all of the motions that have been filed at that
time. I think that is plain ehough. All right, now then you may
proceed with the trial of the case. Now, you presented this case
up to the Circuit Court of Appeals, did you not, this past week?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And they didn't decide on it. What they did
they postponed it until tomorrow or today, didn't they?
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, my last information from the
Clerk is that they are to be presented for decision on or about
24th of August, on yesterday, now something may have transpired
since then, I don't know.
THE COURT: Well, I didn't even know that it had been
filed until this morning. That's all right. That's your privilege,
and the Court will get to it when they can. Now, before we get
into the trial of these cases do you all wish the witnesses placed
under the rule?
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, most of my witnesses are plain
tiffs and they would have a right to stay in the court room.
THE COURT: Yes, if they are plaintiffs, but suppose you
call your witnesses and then if they are plaintiffs they can so
stay.
MR. MOORE: All the witnesses that I plan to use at this
time, Your Honor, are plaintiffs and who are presently in the
court room. If any other person or persons should arrive we
14
will have them sequestered.
THE COURT: Well, then, Mr. Marshal, put out everybody
in the court room that are -- Well, he will have to know who
are the plaintiffs and who are not. Suppose you call a list of
the plaintiffs, so there will not be any misunderstanding.
MR. MOORE: All right, sir. Reuben Gamble, Shirley
Bolden, Gloria Outler, Bernice Turner, Rosetta Lewis, Frank
Stanley, Winney Howard. These are witnesses who are plaintiffs.
Now, we have others who are not plaintiffs. Maxime Carl Rice,
and ^uantia Tucker.
THE COURT: All right, those last two are not plaintiffs.
They would be subject to, if you all place them under the Rule,
they would have to go out. That is the last two that you mentioned.
Now, lets get this straight, they are not plaintiffs, therefore
they make a motion to place them under the Rule, so they will
have to go out.
MR. HAYES: We have not asked for the rule to be invoked.
I didn't hear him.
THE COURT: Oh, hell, I thought you did.
MR MOORE: I insist on the Rule, Your Honor.
THE COURT: He asked for the Rule.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir.
THE COURT: All right, now, Mr. Marshal, you have got
the names of those two.
THE MARSHAL: Do you want to call the rest of the witneses?
15
THE COURT: I want to call the other side now. I want
to get his straightened out first. I on't know who the two were.
THE MARSHAL: I have them.
THE COURT: You have got them. Now, suppose you to step
out.
THE MARSHAL: Wait until we can swear them, Judge.
THE COURT: All right. Yes, but let the other side call
their witnesses and we will swear them allat one time.
MR. HAYES: Harold Ward, Arthur Lane, Henry Walden,
Bernard DeLoach, Glyen Harden, Jim Applegate, FBI Agent Sipples,
I believe it is.
THE COURT: All right, now, Mr.Clerk swear them all.
THE CLERK: All right, sir.
(NOTE: Accordingly, the witnesses on both sides were
duly sworn with the exception of one witness who would only
affirm.)
THE COURT: How many of those people you called, Mr.
Attorney, are plaintiffs or defendants in this case?
MR. HAYES: None, sir.
THE COURT: All right, they will have to step out. Now,
I would like to ask counsel a question. You have one witness here
that you called as a witness who is Judge of the Superior Court
of the Dublin Circuit. Now, of course, from a technical standpoint
16
he might be an officer of the Court, but I want to ask you all if
you want him placed tfunder the Rule , if you do, I will place him
under the rule.
MR. MOORE: I won't insist on it, Your Honor.
THE COURT: What?
MR. MOORE: I won't insist on it. It is in the dis
cretion of the court, but I won't insist on it.
THE COURT: Well, if nobody objects to it, all right.
You can bring Mr. Ward back in, Mr. Marshal. Judge, you were not
peesent but I asked counsel, you being Judge of the Superior Court
whether or not they had any objections to you remaining in the
court room and they very nicely said they would raid no objections
So, you may remain in the court room.
MR. WARD: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: Now, I think all the preliminaries are out
of the way. All right, you may proceed. Now, there are three
cases of the plaintiffs - well, four cases - 1, 2,3,4 cases --
well, really and truly it looks like five cases, four on that
side over there and one case you represent, is that right?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir, and there is a counter claim of
the defendant. I represent the City of Dublin in the three removal
cases and the Chief of Police, individually.
THE COURT: Well, I guess the burden of proof would rest
with you, and so you may proceed with all cases, Go right ahead.
MR. MOORE: All right, sir.
17
BEVERLEY B. HAYES. Called by the Plaintiffs for
the purpose of cross examination and after having been duly
sworn the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth to
tell, testified as follows:
ON CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. MOORE:
Q Will you state your name, please?
A Beverley B. Hayes.
Q Where do you live, Mr. Hayes?
A I live in Dublin,Georgia, Laurens County.
Q Are you engaged in any profession?
A I am.
Q In Dublin,Georgia?
A I am.
Q What is that profession?
A I am a practicing attorney at law.
Q Are you also employed as City Attorney?
A I am.
Q How long have you been employed in that capacity?
A Since the first of January of 1965.
Q Were you employed as City Attorney before that time?
A I have been in the past.
Q When was that, sir?
A I am unable to recall the dates. It was not
18
immediately preceding the first of January,1965, but it was some
time during the year 1951 or 1952 or '53.
Q Are you a full or part time City Attorney?
A I am the only City Attorney that the City of
Dublin has?
Q Then are you employed full time?
A The answer to that would be no.
Q Are you employed on a fee basis?
A I am not. Wait just a minute. Let me clarify that.
The City Attorney of the City of Dublin is retained on a monthly
basis at $100.00 per month. There are other charges when things
are done that are not in the ordinary course of being City Attor
ney, such as attending council meetings and for extra legal advice
I do render additional bills to the City of Dublin. To this date
I have not had occasion to do that. Does that answer your
question?
Q I have some other questions. Do you also charge
additional fees for your appearance in court?
A I do.
Q Have you had occasion to represent the City of
Dublin in Court?
A I have.
Q And, when was that?
A At the present time I am representing the City of
19
Dublin in some school consolidation - merger cases that are now
pending in the Supreme Court of Georgia. I believe that is all
at the present time.
Q I don't believe I asked you how long you have been
a practicing attorney?
A I was admitted to the Bar, I think it was, in
June of 1949.
Q And was that in this State?
A That was in the State of Georgia.
Q You are also a member of the District Court?
A I am.
Q Are you a member of the Court of Appeals?
A Of what?
Q The United States Court of Appeals?
A 1 am not.
Q What about the Supreme Court of the United States?
A I am not.
Q How long have you been admitted to practice in
the United States District Court?
A Since, I believe, the year, either 1949 or 1950.
Q Were you serving as City Attorney for the City of
Dublin on or about August 16th, 1965?
A I was.
Q Were you present in the City Court of the City of
20
Dublin on August 16th, 1965?
A I don't recall the exact date,whether I was present
or not.
memory?
Q Was it Monday was a week ago, to refresh your
A What was the date?
Q August, 16th?
A I was.
Q What was your purpose in being present there?
A I was there representing the City of Dublin in
the Recorder's Court in the trial of certain violations of the
City Ordinances of the City of Dublin.
Q Would those cases be the same cases as appear in
the caption of petition for removal No. 733 and 734 -- pardon me,
735?
A I don't recall the number of those cases. If I
could see them I might could identify them.
Q I hand you a petition for removal number 735 —
pardon me, 1735?
A I represented the City of Dublin in the prosecution
of all of these cases listed here.
Q I show you removal petition 1734, what about that
one?
A I represented the City of Dublin in the prosecution
of all the cases listed here.
21
Q I show you removal petition number 1733?
A Now, to answer your question, this case of the City
of Dublin,Georgia, Vs Shirley Bolton and Herman Kirkland, I examined
the records of the City Court of Drublin, Recorder's Court, and as
far as I am able to determine there are no cases pending and has
never been any cases in the Recorder's Court of the City of Dublin
Vs Shirley Bolton and Herman Kirkland as listed in this case No.
1733.
q Then you have no interest in case number 1733, is
that correct?
A I have an interest in the case due to the feet that
I am here now representing the City of Dublin in this petition for
removal.
Q Well, it is a fact that the City of Dublin does
not intend to prosecute either Shirley Bolton or Herman Kirkland?
A I can't answer that. I say at this time there are
no pending cases and have been no pending cases against these
two individuals by the City of Dublin, but whether they intend
to prosecute them on some other date on some other charge or not,
I don't know.
Q Do you intend to prosecute them on the charges
stated in the removal petition?
A We haee no charges against these defendants in
the Recorder's Court of the City of Dublin, as shown by the
removal petition.
22
Q I don't believe that is responsive, Mr. Hayes. The
question is, do you intend to prosecute them on the charges laid
in the removal petition?
A There are no charges at the present time pending
against Shirley Bolton and Herman Kirkland in the Recorder's Court
of the City of Dublin.
Q All right. Do you understand the question?
A Yes, sir. I understand the question, and I have
answered it to the best of my ability.
Q The question is not whether the cases are pending
in the ---
THE COURT: (Interposing) Well, cogld he represent the
City or not represent the City if there were no cases pending?
MR. MOORE: I think he could answer that too, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, he said that there were no cases
pending. I think it is tweedledum and tweedledee on both sides.
He couldn't represent the City if there were no cases pending.
You might ask him if the cases were made or something to that
effect. What was your question?
Q Were any cases made, Mr. Hayes?
A According to the record of the City of Dublin in
the Recorder's Court no cases were made, nor are there any cases
pending now against Shirley Bolton and Herman Kirkland.
Q Who is the keeper of records for the Recorder's
Court of the City of Dublin?
23
A The Chief of Police of the City of Dublin, who
at the present time is William Josey is Clerk of the Court.
Q Where may those records be found?
A They may be found in the Chief of Police's Office
of the City of Dublin, Georgia.
Q Have you, yourself, personal occasions to examine
those records?
A I have.
Q And your testimony is based upon your examination
of the records?
A That is correct.
THE COURT: I think he testified to that just now.
Q Do you contemplate bringing cases against Shirley
Bolton and Herman Kirkland on the bases of the charges in the re
moval petition?
A At the present time there are no pending cases
in the Recorder's Court against those two named individuals.
Q Let me put the question another way: Are you
thinking about bringing cases against --
THE COURT: (Interposing) Well, I think that is going
a little far about what he is thinking about.
MR. MOBRE: Well, Your Honor, I would just like to get
the information from the witness.
THE COURT: Well, he said there are no cases pending.
MR. MOORE: Well, I asked him if he was contemplating
24
doing so. I thought perhaps there was some confusion about the
languaged I used and I thought I would change it and ask him if
he was thinking about it.
THE COURT: Well, I am not going to let him answer that
question, as it now stands, "are you thinking about it?" I don't
think that would be a proper question. He has already answered
the other questions, dhen he says that there are no cases pending,
I think that answers the question.
Q Approximately, what time of day did you start the
first case involving any of the persons named in the petition for
removal on August 16th?
A I don't recall. It was sometime after 9:00 A. M.,
I don't have any idea as to the exact time.
Q The first case you tried last Monday was the case
of Richard Sheffield. Does that refresh your memory?
A I don't recall, but I believe that was the first
case. There were so many of these cases, Mr. Moore, that I don't
recall the cases. Richard Sheffield was tried.
Q Now, Richard Sheffield involved a different matter.
It is not a subject of this removal petition, is it?
A As far as I know, his name is not mentioned, or
is not listed on the removal petition.
Q And that case took approximately all the morning,
is that right?
25
A I don't recall. I am not trying to evade the
answer, I just don't know, there were so many cases that I just
don't recall.
Q You don't remember trying any case similar to what
was involved in the Sheffield case, do you, during the morning?
A I don't remember.
Q Das you remember the first person who was called
and tried that is listed in the removal petition?
A I do not.
Q Do you remember the case of Linda BeNotie?
A I do.
Q Did you call that case in the afternoon?
A That case was called sometime during that session,
whether it was called in the afternoon or called in the morning
or called the next day, I don't remember. I believe it was the
first case called, but I am not sure about that.
Q Now, you were present when Attorney Thomas Jackson
served and presented these removal petitions to Chief Josey and
to the Recorder?
A I was.
Q You were present?
A 1 was.
Q And you hai not tried the cases that are listed
in the removal petitions at that time, had you?
26
A As far as I know, or as far as I can recall, we
had not.
Q When the removal petitions were presented to you
you were informed that the filing of the sefies of petitions
affected the removal of the cases, were you not?
A What do you mean by that question?
Q I am asking you the question.
A I don't understand the question.
Q Let me ask you this question: Do you recall Attorney
Jackson reading to you from Title 28 of the United States Code?
A No, sir.
Q Do you recall Attorney Jackson reading to you
Title 28, Section 46 (e)?
A I recall Tom Jackson and myself discussing the
legal points involved in these cases if that is what you are
asking about. As far as him reading me any law or anything, why,
I don't recall that.
Q All right. When you say you don't recall, you mean
that you have no independent recollection?
A I recall that there was a discussion about the law.
He gave his opinion and I gave my opinion.
Q I am asking you, sir, do you have any independent
recollection of whether or not he read Title 28, Section 1446(e)?
A To the best of my knowledge, he showed me a book,
something on Civil Rights, and said that was the law and in his
27
opinion that was the law that governed the case. I read it and
I told him that as far as I was concerned I didn't agree with
him. That was the limit of our conversation.
Q All right, then, by that are you testifying that
jou did, in fact, read the following from Title 28, Section 1446(e)
"Promptly after the filing of such petition and bond the defendant
or defendants shall give written notice thereof to all adverse
parties and shall file a copy of the petition with the clerk of
such state court, which shall effect the removal and the State
court shall proceed no further unless and until the case is re
manded."
A Now, what is your question?
Q Do you recall that having been read to you?
A Read to me?
Q Yes, sir?
A No, it was not.
Q Do you recall having read it?
A I read it, and I am familiar with it.
Q All right, sir. Did you have any familarity with it
prior to August 16th, 1965?
A I had never been concerned with that point before,
and as far as I know I have never.
Q Now, you proceeded to try the persons who were
listed in the removal petition, did you not?
A I did.
28
Q At that time you had not filed a motion for reman^,
is that correct?
A I had not.
Q As a matter of fact, you have only filed your
motion for remand today?
A That is correct.
THE COURT: Anything else?
MR. MOORE: Just one second.
Q Mr. Hayes, on August 16th, after the Noon recess,
did you return to the court room and copy Title 28?
A I don't recall whether I did or not.
Q But you would not deny that you did?
A I would not deny that I did, and I would not deny
that I am not familiar with the law you are questioning me about.
Q Now, those prosecutions were continued as of August
18th, is that correct?
A I don't understand your question.
Q tfell, on August 18th, which was Wednesday, about
2:00 o'clock an announcement was made in open court respecting
these cases to the effect that the Recorder was ill?
A In substance, yes.
Q And at that time the prosecutions were continued?
A That's right.
Q And they have been continued until now by the
Recorder who is present in court now?
29
A I believe there was an order taken that they were
ontinued uctil next Monday or Monday week I can't recall, but
there is an order to that effect. They were continued at that
time for approximately two weeks.
Q Was that a written order?
A Yes.
Q Is a copy of it available?
A I don't know whether it is or not, but possibly
I have one in the file.
Q Could you produce a copy of it to the court?
A If I have it, I can.
Q Bwfore these proceedings are terminated?
A I can produce it now.
THE COURT: All right, suppose you do that.
THE WITNESS: Can I come down?
THE COURT:Where is it?
THE WITNESS: I will have to get it, Judge.
THE COURT: Well, you go get it.
THE WITNESS: All right, sir.
(NOTE: Witness leaves the stand to obtain document.)
THE COURT: There is one thing that I forgot to mention,
and that is an attorney is here from the Department of Justice
merely, as I understand it, if any of the FBI boys are placed on
the stand, to represent them in any questions that might be asked.
30
He talked to me this morning. Is he in court?
THE MARSHAL: Yes, sir, He has just stepped out.
THE COURT: All right, call him in. You have no objection
to him remaining in court, have you?
MR. MOBRE: He is attorney --
THE COURT: (Interposing) He is an attorney for the
Department of Justice.
MR. MOORE: No, sir.
THE COURT: Fine. Let him come in. He said that some
of the FBI boys have been subpoenaed to be here as witness. I
think they were subpoenaed by the defendant as witnesses, and I
told him that I would make the announcement so that he could
remain in the court room, so if you see him, you know him, don't
you?
THE MARSHAL: Yes, sir. He has just left, Judge. He was
sitting right here.
THE COURT: I thought I saw him get up. That was what
brought it to my mind. He has just stepped out. Tell him that
he can remain in here. I told him that I was going to do that
and I omitted to do it this morning. He was subpoenaed by you
all, wasn't he?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
) Q May I have it, please, sir?
I
A Certainly.
THE COURT: The Agents were subpoenaed by you all,
31
were they not?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir, they were. There were two agents,
Judge.
THE COURT: Two agents of the FBI?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
Q Now, Mr. Hayes, that order shows that those cases
were continued until September 6th at 10:00 A. M., in the Recorder's
Court, is that correct?
A I shall I read the order?
Q I am asking you the question, please, sir?
A Will you restate the question, please.
Q Those cases were continued on August 18th, 1965,
until 10:00 o'clock, A. M., September 6th?
A 1965. That's correct.
Q And was that by reason of the health of the Recorder?
A This order is signed by the Recorder, who actuary
controls the court. I have nothing to do with it. It gives no
reason why they are continued. It just says continued for trial
or other disposition by this court on September 6th, 1965, at
10:00 A. M. I think the order speaks for itself.
Q Was it drawn the same day that it was signed?
A It is signed the 18th day of August, 1965, and the
answer to that is as far as I know, it was.
32
Q As far as you know, that order has never been
served on counsel for any of the defendants, has it?
A It has not. So far as I know, it has not.
Q You don't have any other information that would
lead you to believe that it was served on anybody else, have you?
A I do not.
Q Now, the announced reason in court was that the
Recorder was ill?
A That's correct.
Q Is it correct that he was ill, or was that the
announced reason?
A I do not know.
Q But you are testifying that it was announced in
open court that the Recorder was ill and therefore the cases were
continued?
A I just answered that question by saying that is
correct.
MR. MOORE: No other questions.
THE COURT: All right, you may go down. It is a quarter
to one now and I usually take out at 12:30 and come back at 2:00,
and I am going to take out now and come back at 2:30. So we will
recess until 2:30.
THE MARSHAL: Take a recess until 2:30.
33
D. B. WILKES, Called by the Plaintiffs for the purpose
of cross examination, after having been first duly sworn the truth
the whole truth and nothing but the truth to tell, testified
as follows:
ON CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. MOORE:
Q Will you state your name, please?
A D. B. Wilkes.
THE COURT: I see our friend is here from the FBI. As
I understood you to say you are subpoenaed by the defendants, that
you are here merely to be present when the FBI give their testimony,
is that right?
THE AGENT: Your Honor, I am from the Justice Department.
I am just here representing the FBI Agents.
THE COURT: All right, you may just have a seat there
at the table. All right,
MR. MOORE: That is not a true alignment.
THE COURT: What is that?
MR. MOORE: I say that is not a true alignment of
parties.
THE COURT: I didn't catch it, what?
MR. MOORE: I said that it is not a true alignment of
the parties, the defendant and the Justice Department.
THE COURT: Well, I wouldn't say that. I think you are
taking a lot upon yourself to say what the Department of Justice
34
should do. He is here to represent the FBI Agents.
MR. MOORE: I was just jesting. I was not trying to
make a point on it, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Do what?
MR. MOORE: I was not trying to make a point of it.
THE COURT: What were you trying to do? All right,
go ahead.
Q Will you state your name for the record, please?
A D. B. Wilkes.
Q Mr. Wilkes, do you hold a position in the City
of Dublin, Georgia?
A I do.
Q What is that position?
A I am Recorder for the City of Dublin, or Judge
of the Recorder's Court.
Q Well, how long have you been Judge of the REcorder's
Court?
A Oh, fourteen months, or thereabouts.
Q Were you elected or appointed?
A I was elected.
Q You were elected?
A Yes.
Q Was that in a public election or by the City
Commissioners?
35
Q The Mayor and Council?
A Yes.
Q Had you served as Recorder prior to that time?
A No.
Q Had you held any positions in the City of Dublin?
A Yes, some years before that time.
Q What positions were those?
A Well, I was Sanitary Inspector at one time and
then I was Street Supervisor.
Q Can you recall how far back that was?
A 1947 through '49 and '52 to the first of September.
Q The first of September when, sir?
A 1952.
Q From 1949 to the first of September, 1952?
A I didn't say that. I said that I was employed by
the City July of 1947 to December 31st, 1949, and then from January
1st, 1952 to September 1st, 1952.
Q In what capacity were you employed at that parti
cular time?
A I have just told you.
Q Which period were you Sanitary Insp ector?
A The first period.
Q Now, do you have any training in law?
A None whatsoever, sir.
A By the City Fathers, the Mayor and Council.
36
Q Is it fair uto say that you are not an attorney?
A I am not an attorney.
Q Were you present in the City Court of Dublin,Georgia
on the 16th of August, 1965?
A I wouldn't say so.
Q Were you present in the Recorder's Court on Monday
about a week ago?
A If you are referring to the Recorder's Court, I
was. Ygu said the City Court.
Q Pardon me. That was August 16th?
A That's right, yes.
Q Judge Wilkes, was that the day on which you were
trying cases listed in the removal petition?
A I have tried every case in the City of Dublin for
the last two years and some months.
Q And on August 16th those cases listed in the removal
petition were cases that you were then trying?
A I was trying some, yes.
Q Do you recall Attorney Tomas Jackson having served,
attested true copies of those petitions, on you?
A I recall him serving me with some kind of a paper
and I examined the paper and I didn't find anybody's name on it
that I thought was authorized to serve me with papers.
Q Let me ask you this: Were you served with a copy
of the removal petition ?
37
A
Q
A
Q
direction you
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
now since the
peesence?
A
Q
A
that.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
He handed me one, yes.
Did it say a |rue attested copy?
Yes.
Now, at that time, did you seek advice as to what
should take?
I don't recall that I did.
Did you discuss it with Mr. Hayes?
No, sir.
Did he discuss it with you?
No.
Was there any discussing about what you should do
removal petition had been served upon you in your
No, sir, not that I recall.
There was no discussion whatsoever?
Well, we probably talked about that sometime after
wften you say sometime after that, what do you mean?
That same day, maybe.
Would it have been in the early afternoon?
I don't recall.
rfould it haee been later in the afternoon?
I told you that I don't recall.
But you do know that there was some discussing?
A Yes.
38
Q And you do know that Mr. Jackson was present and
Mr. Hayes was present?
A Right.
Q Did you ever seek advice from the City Attorney as
to what the meaning of those petitions was?
A No.
Q You did not?
A No.
Q You, yourself, did not know what the meaning of
those petitions were?
A Yes, I did.
Q You did?
A Yes.
Q What was your understanding of the effect of those
petitions?
A They had no effect on me whatsoever. I just stated
that - in other words, His Honor, Judge Scarlett's, name wasn't on
them at no place and I didn't figure they were binding on me what
soever. He read some law to me about the state, of course, I
agreed with the law, but the cases under which I was trying was
not, as I interpreted it, a state case, but purely a municipality
case and it hadmothing to do with it, as I understood it.
Q At that time you were relying on your own interpre
tation of what the law was?
A Yes.
39
Q And you acted accordingly, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q You did not seek any advice on it?
A That is my testimony.
Q Did you seek any advice the following day?
A What, about this thing?
Q Yes, sir?
A No.
Q What about the next day?
A No, not in the morning part of the day.
Q Did you seek advice in the afternoon?
A I did.
Q From whom did you seek that advice?
A His Honor, Judge Scarlett.
Q Did you make a telephone call ?
A Yes.
Q Do you recall what the substance of that conversa
tion was?
A I do, very clearly.
Q What was it?
A You came in there and gave me some kind of a paper.
You said: "I am serving this on you to enjoin you from proceeding
with these cases." I asked you this question: "Were you a United
States Marshal?" You said: No, sir. I am not." I said: "By what
right or authority have you got to serve me with any kind of a paper?
40
You sfcated that it was the authority of the United States, the
laws of the United States. I said: "you show me the law and I
will bow to it." You said: "I can't do it. I haven't got it down
here." I said: "I will proceed." Then it was that I called His
Honor, Judge Scarlett, and told him what I understood you to say,
and asked him what to do and he said "Proceed, try every one of
them." I don't know whether you will allow m e t say this or
not, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: You had stated to Mr. Hayes that if he and
I proceeded to try any more cases that you would see to it that
we would be in contempt of Judge Scarlett's court, the United
States Court.
Q I think your testimony on that score should be
corrected, and that is I told you that at the conclusion of these
proceedings that I would bring a petition to cite you for contempt.
A You didn't tell me either one of them.
THE COURT: Well, that is neitherh here nor there. I
think all of this is irreldvant testimony any way, but it is up
to you to put up whatever witness you want.
Q Now, the following day you called a recess, is
that correct, the day following?
A No, that same day.
Q That same day?
4;
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, what day were you advised to restrict your
activities because of your health?
A I believe - I don't recall whether it was Tuesday
afternoon or Wednesday. X believe it was Tuesday afternoon. Yes,
Tuesday afternoon.
Q And at that time you declared a recess?
A No.
Q You didn't?
A No.
Q Did you at
A I did.
that time continue the cases?
Q
A
Q
You continued them for a period of two weeks?
No. I continued to try the cases.
Well, there must be some misunderstanding. The
following day you issued a continuance, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q You remember that order that Mr. Hayes had?
A I signed the order.
Q now, when did you sign that order?
A I think it is dated there.
MR. MOORE: Identify this document, please.
(NOTE: Accordingly, same was then marked for identifi
cation as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 1.)
Q Judge Wilkes, I show you Plaintiffs' Exhibit P-1.
42
Is this the order to which you have reference?
A That's right.
Q This is the order that you entered, continuing the
cases listed on Plaintiff's Exhibit P-1, is that right?
A When I recessed the Court, I did not give that
order at that time. I recessed until further notice of the court
pending my physical condition.
Q And when did you give this order?
A About 2:00 o'clock on that day, Wednesday.
Q On the same day?
A Yes.
Q At the time you convened court and made the
announcement that you were forced to restrict your activities,
did you at that time state you were going to produce a medical
certificate?
A No.
Q You did not?
A I hdd one but I didn't state I was going to produce
it. If anybody wants to see it, I have got it.
Q You do have a medical certificate?
A I have. I haven;t got it with me. I didn't think
it was necessary.
Q You didn't bring it to court with you?
A No, I did not.
Q By whom was it issued?
43
A By Dr.Fred Coleman.
Q Had you been under treatment before this?
A Dr.Fred Coleman has been doctoring me for about
eighteen or nineteen years, somether thereabouts.
Q What about during this past year?
A I don't recall that he doctored me at all this year
until the date you are talking about there. I had no use for him.
Q your reason then for continuing these cases was
because of your health?
A Correct.
Q And there was no other reason?
A None whatsoever. I wanted to go ahead but he ordered
me home for at least two weeks. If I am going to pay him I am
going to listen to him as far as I can.
HR. MOORE: The witness is with you.
THE COURT: Any questions?
MR. HAYES: No, sir.
THE COURT: You may go down.
44
WILLIAM D. JOSEY. Called by the Plaintiffs for the
purpose of cross examination and after having been first duly
sworn the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth to
tell, testified as follows:
ON CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. MOORE:
q Will you state your name for the record, please?
A William D. Josey.
Q Where do you live, Mr. Josey?
A 1512 Stonewall Street, Dublin,Georgia.
Q How long have you lived in Dublin, Georgia?
A Since March of 1964.
q Do you mind if I ask you where you lived prior to
that time?
A I lived at Cochran,Georgia.
Q Approximately, how far is Cochjran from Dublin?
A Thirty miles.
Q Would you mind stating your age for the record?
A I am 33 years old.
Q How long haee you been connected with the Police
Department of the City of Dublin?
A Since March of 1964.
Q What was your first position with the Police
Department of the City of Dublin?
A Chief of Police.
45
Q Had you/ held a job as a policeman prior to that
time?
A No, not a policeman.
Q Had you held a job as a Sheriff or a Deputy Sheriff
prior to that time?
A I was chief deputy sheriff of Blakely County.
Q Where is that county located?
A Nortwest of Laurens County.
Q That is at Cochran, isn't it?
A That's right.
Q How long had you been Chief Deputy Sheriff over
there?
A Since 1960.
Q Had you worked as a law enforcement officer prior
to that time
A Since 1958.
Q And where was that?
A In Blakely County.
Q In Blakely County?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what position did you hold?
A Deputy Sheriff.
Q Deputy Sheriff?
A Yes.
Q And how long were you deputy sheriff in Blakely
46
County?
A Since 1958.
Q And had you held a law enforcement position prior
to that time?
A No, I had not.
Q Do you mind if I ask you what you ctid do?
A I was in the insurance business.
Q Where was that, sir?
A In Blakely County.
Q And what type of insurance business was that?
A Life Insurance.
Q Now, have you had occasion to serve in the United
Armed Forces?
A I have.
Q And in what branch of the Service did you serve?
A The United States Army.
Q With what unit or with what attachment?
A 38th Infantry Regiment, 2nd Division.
Q Did you have occasion to serve as a military
policeman
A No.
Q Have you had an opportunity to attend a Police
Academy?
A Which one?
47
Q Have you had occasion to attend one, first?
A I have attended several police schools. Do you
have a specific academy in mind?
Q Yes, name the ones in which you have been enrolled?
A I have attended several in Athens.
Q At Athens,Georgia?
A At the University of Georgia.
Q Have you attended police schools or seminars
elsewhere?
A I have.
Q Where?
A In Dublin.
Q Dublin,Georgia.
A Dublin, Georgia.
Q And when was that, sir?
A I believe the first one was in 1960, '59 or '60.
I don't remember the exact date.
Q And by whom was it sponsored?
A It was sponsored by local law enforcement officers
in that area.
Q You mean in Laurens County?
A Laurens County and several surrounding counties.
Q How many days was it in session?
A Five days.
Q And what month and year?
48
A It was in 1960, in the spring of the year, along
in March.
Q Is that your best recollection?
A It is.
Q And what course did you take up at that time?
A Basic fundamentals of law enforcement.
Q And what are they considered to be?
A The arrest and identification and records, the
evaluation of records and so forth and various things that deal
with law enforcement.
Q You have reference then to the administratiee
procedures for arresting and retaining persons?
A That's right.
Q Did it deal with any other subject?
A Identification, several different subjects. Do
you have any particular one in mind?
A The ones that you can recall. Do you recall any
others?
A It had to do with identification and proper police
procedures and so forth
Q With respect to what?
A With respect to enforcing the law.
Q How to go about enforcing the law?
A How to go about enforcing the law, the laws, I
should say.
Q
A
49
Is that all you can recall at this seminar?
Administrative procedures.
And these are the ones to which you have alreadyQ
testified?
A That's right.
Q Now, you made mention of schools in Athens, when
did you attend such seminar over in Athens?
A I believe the last one was in March of thie year.
Q And for how long a period was that school?
A Three days, I believe.
Q And what subjects did you take up?
A Various subjeets and police methods.
Q And, for an example, sir?
A Records evaluation, selective patrol, relationship
of the officer and the defendant, the officer and the accused.
Q Do you remember anything else about it, sir?
A It is a very interesting school.
Q All right. Now, I believe you mentioned that you
had been to Athens before, when was you there before, sir?
A I believe it was in 1964.
Q Is that your best recollection?
A Yes.
Q And for how long a period were you there?
A About three day s.
50
Q About three days?
A Yes.
Q What subjects did you take?
A Some that I have just named.
Q You don't recall studying any others than the ones
you have named?
A Not right off. Do you have any specific one in
mind?
Q Let me ask you this question: By whomvere these
seminars sponsored?
A National City Managers Association, I believe.
Q What type of an organization is that ?
A It is a National Organization of City Managers.
Q Was this the southeast region?
A I don't know if it was or not.
Q This wasn't the national wide seminar. This was
a region seminar?
A It was.
Q You don't recall any officers being there from
any other place other than Georgia, do you?
A Yes, there were officers there from other states.
Q Do you know from what states those were?
A One was from Florida, I remember, and one was from
Carolina, I believe.
Q Is this true on both occasions?
51
A No, I am speaking of the last one.
Q What about the first time you were there?
A I don't remember.
Q Now, have you attended any other seminars or
schools other than the ones you have testified about?
A Yes, I have attended many others.
Q Police schools?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where?
A In various places.
Q For example?
A Hawkinsville, for example.
Q Hawkinsville,Georgia?
A Yes, sir.
Q When was that?
A I don't remember the date.
Q Do you know who sponsored the school?
A Local Law Enforcement Officers.
Q Was that in 1963?
A I don't know.
Q
VYou know that it was not before 1962?
n
A No, I don't.
Q As a matter of fact, it was before the Governor/s
Program that you attended any of these schools, is that right?
A What Governor's Program?
Governor nSanders?
52
Q Governor nSanders?
A I don't know what you are talking about.
Q You have no knowledge of the Governor's Program
for improving police enforcement?
A Yes, sir, some of them were before this, yes.
You are speaking of Governor Carl Sanders?
Q Right?
A Some were before he was elected Governor.
Q He was elected when, in 1961, wasn't it?
A I don't remember, maybe it was 1961.
Q Ygur recollection is that you didn't attend any
school prior tol961, is that correct?
A Yes, I am sure I did.
Q Where did you attend?
A In various cities in the middle Georgia area.
Q But not outside of the middle Georgia area?
A No.
Q Now, how large is the city of Dublin? How many
people live there?
A I could give you an approximate guess.
Q Well, your best estimate?
A Well, approximate J.6,000.
Q Approximately 16,000?
A Yes, about that.
Q Do you have any knowledge of how many Negroes and
53
how many whites in the City of Dublin?
A No, nothing definite.
Q You are not able to estimate that?
A No. I wouldn't attenpt to.
Q Now, how many men are employed by the Dublin Police
Department?
A Nineteen.
Q D0es that include you, the Chief?
A It does.
Q Now, what are the hours of work of the police
officers?
A 49 hours a week.
Q And how are those hours broken up?
A Eight and a quarter hour shifts.
Q Didnf -- I didn't quite hear you?
A Eight and a quarter hour shifts, six days a week.
Q What time does the first shift start?
A The first shift starts at 7:30, A. M.,
Q And goes until when?
A 3:30, P. M.
Q From 7:30 to 3:30, P. M.?
A Right.
Q How many men work the first shift?
A It varies.
Q Varies between what?
54
A Usually there are four men on the first shift.
Q You would call that the morning shift, is that
right?
A The morning shift, yes.
Q Now, the next shift comes on, say, about 3:00
o'clock, is that right?
A 3:30, P. M.
Q And, how late do they work, sir?
A From 3:30 until 11:30, P. M.
Q And, approximately, how many men do you have on
that shift?
A Five.
Q Is that ture for the weekend?
A Well, it varies, there is a relief Sergeant and a
relief officer that work alternate, that alternate on the different
shifts.
Q I don't believe I undefstand that. Will you explain
that, sir?
A There is a relief officer which alternates from
shift to shift.
Q Now, the next shift is after 11:00 o'clock at night,
is that right?
A From 11:30 to 7:30.
Q How many men work that shift?
55
A Approximately five.
Q Do you have police cars?
A I do.
Q How many police cars do you have?
A Three.
Q Do you have other motor vehicle equipment for the
use of the Pdice Department?
A I do.
Q And what is that ecuipment?
A Two motorcycles.
Q Pardon me?
A Two motorcycles.
Q Mr. Josey, do you remember being present in the City
of Dublin on Sunday evening July 25th?
A Sunday evening? I do.
Q Do you remember being present at or near the City
Hall at about 8:20, P. M.?
A I do.
Q Is the City Hall located on Belvue Avenue?
A It is at Belvue and Church, Church and Belvue.
Q Church and Belvue?
A Yes,
Q In the City of Dublin. And, how far is the City
Hall from the Police Station?
56
A The Police Station is in the City Hall.
Q Right in the City Hall. Now, across the street
from the City Hall on Bellevue is the Baptist church, is that
correct?
A That's correct.
Q Do you know the name of that church?
A The First Baptis Church.
Q Do you remember seeing, on that day a young
white boy by the name of Carl Wright? 3/1*
A I do.
Q Was there a disturbance in that area?
A There was,
Q Were you present throughout the disturbance?
A I was.
Q There ;was a sizeable crowd of white persons present
on the Bellevue side of the street, is that correct?
A Yes, there was some over there side of the street.
Q And there were some over at the church, is that
right?
A That's right, that's on the Bellevue side.
Q All right. How many police officers did you have
present?
A I don't recall right off.
Q You had at least two or three, didn't you?
57
A I did.
Q
correct?
Now, Wright was with some Negro people, is that
A That's correct.
Q
Church?
And they had sought to go into the First Baptist
A That's right.
Q And you asked them to move across the street,
is that right?
A I did, after they began singing.
Q Now, when you walked up they were standing there
with bowed heads in front of the church praying, is that right?
A No.
Q
praying?
You say they weren't standing with bowed heads
A
walked up.
To get the record straight, I was there when they
Q You were there when they walked up?
A Yes.
Q And you know, as a matter of fact they were not
allowed to go into the church?
A I do.
Q Because you know, as a matterof fact, that the
church doesn't accept Negro and */hite worshipers together, don't
you?
58
A So far as I know, theytf haven't.
Q And they were not accepting them on that day, so
far as you know?
A That's right.
Q Now, you had Maxium - I will call him "Max" just
to make it simple?
A You can call him whatever you like.
Q All right. Now, you had Mr.Rice across the street,
is that correct?
A I did.
q And there was a group of people there with him?
A Yes, there was a group with him.
Q And in that group there were some Negro girls, is
that right?
A There were.
Q And perhaps one or two Negro men?
A Boys.
Q When you say boys, you mean they were young, is
that right?
A Yes.
Q Now, do you remember seeing a man by the name of
Preston Horton?
A I do.
Q Did you see him when he beat Max Rice?
59
A When I saw him, he was on top of Max Rice. I
pulled him off him.
Q You think you pulled him off?
A I did.
Q Now, this man, Preston Horton, was using an
instrument, is that right?
A I didn't see an instrument.
Q But you were the one that pulled him off, you say?
A I was.
Q Now, do you know whether he had your billy club
or another policeman's club?
A I know that he didn't.
Q You don't know?
A Sure I know. But he didn't 1 have a club that I
saw.
Q Now, do you know whether or not it was your police
officer who threw this mustard gas or some one else?
A I don't know any was thrown.
Q Weil, you were there all the time these people
were there, weren't you?
A 1 was.
Q And you were there at the time the young girl had
to be taken away from the City Hall about a block down the street?
A Not that I know of.
60
Q You don't know anything about that?
A No.
Q You don't know whether it happened or not?
A As far as I know, no such an incident occurred.
Q Do you recall making a statement to the press that
you discussed with the young girl on whom this gas was thrown?
A No, I do not.
Q You didn't make a statement like that?
A No, I did not.
Q Now, Max Rice was taken to the hospital, is that
right?
A He was.
Q He was severely beaten, wasn't he?
A Well, he was bleeding about the head. He had a
knot on his head.
Q He was hurt?
A He had a gash on his head.
Q But he was hurt?
A He was hurt.
Q Did you go to the hospital with him?
A No, I didn't,sent one of my officers with him.
Q You sent one of your officers with him?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know which one?
A I do.
61
Q Which one? What's his name?
A Hightower.
Q Who?
A Officer Hightower.
Q Do you know to which hospital he was taken?
A No. I used the radio to call my radio dispatcher
and asked him to dispatch an ambulance to the scene. I don't
specify any hospital. My duty, so to speak, ceases when I load
the subject and turn him over to the care of the ambulance attend
ant. On this specific occasion he was alone and I sent and officer
with him.
Q What did you charge nMax Rice with doing? Did
you charge him with loitering?
A No, I didn't.
Q Now, you made a statement later on that night to
the press about Max Rice, didn't you?
A Not that I recall. I possibly did. What have you
got in mind?
Q I am asking you if you made a statement?
A It is possible.
Q You don't recall whether you made a statement
or not?
A It is possible that I did.
Q Did you ever visit the hospital where Max Rice
62
was taken?
A I did.
Q When did you go to the hospital?
A The following morning.
Q pardon me?
A On the following morning.
Q To which hospital did you go?
A The County Hospital, Laurens County Memorial
Hospital.
Q W^at did you do?
A I asked the doctor the extent of his injuries and
so forth.
Q Did you talk to Max Rice?
A No, I didn't.
Q Did you attempt to talk to him?
A No, I didn't.
Q Did you consider it important to talk to him?
A Not at that time.
Q Have you talked to him about this incident since
then?
A Not that I recall.
Q Now, you didn't, yourself, arrest Preston Horton,
did you?
A I did.
63
Q You did?
A I did.
Q And you dharged him with disorderly conduct,
didn't you?
A
Q
A
That's right.
You didn't charge him with anything else?
That's right, disorderly conduct, fighting and
disorderly conduct.
Q Did you arrest him on a warrant?
A No, I didn't.
Q You arrested —
A At the cite of the violation.
Q When did you arrest him?
A Immediately.
Q Immediately when?
A August 25th. I believe it was August 25th - July
25 th.
Q July 25th?
A Yes, July 25th.
Q This was after the beating, is that right?
A Just as soon as I pulled him off Rice.
Q And it is your testimony that you pulldd him off?
A It is.
Q And it is your testimony that you chafged Horton
with disorderly conduct?
A It is.
64
Q What was the disposition of that case?
A A bond forfeiture.
Q Just a bond forefeiture?
A Yes, sir.
Q YQu have not applied for a warrant for his arrest
since then, have you?
A No, I have not.
Q You didn't think it was important, did you?
A As far as I am concerned, the city's case is settled
&hen you forfeit a cash bond
Q How much was that bond?
A $22.00.
Q How many stitches were taken in Rice's head?
A I don't know.
Q You talked to the doctor, didn't you?
A Yes.
Q Did you find out?
A The Doctor said that he had minor lacerations of
the head.
Q And that was all you bothered to do?
A No, not exactly.
Q But you never talked to Rice?
A No, I didn't talk to Rice.
Q Now, Preston Horton is white, isn't he?
A He is.
Q And so is Max Rice?
A He is.
Q Now, you know Max Rice to be connected with the
Civil Rights Movement, is that right?
A As far as I know, that's his business in Dublin.
Q Pardon me?
A As far as I know, that's his purpose of being in
Dublin.
Q You don't know what the Civil Rights Movement is,
do you?
A I don't know if I do or not.
Q Pardon me.
A What Civil Rights Moeement? What Civil Rights
Movement do you have in mind?
Q Well, the one that you think is taking place in
Dublin?
A Well, he was wearing a button on his shirt with
the initials "SCOPE", I believe, or Scope, or something like that
I think they call it.
Q And, when you see that button, you associate that
with Civil Rights?
A Not necessarily.
Q Chief Josey, what is your understanding of a hit
65
and run violation?
66
A What do I understand of a hit and run violation?
Q Yes?
A Are you speaking of a traffic offense?
§ That's right?
A That's when one vehicle strikes another and leaves
the scene of the accident.
Q What are the motorists suppose to do at the time
of collision? wjiat are they suppose to do, if anything?
A He is suppose to notify a police officer or some
authority to investigate the accident.
Q Can he leveve his telephone number and his address
and license at the scene and go on?
A It wouldn't be acceptable to me. I suppose he
could, if he wanted to be charged with leaving the scene of an
accident.
Q Now, for an accident case, say, for example, a
traffic hit and run case, what is the usual bond?
A Are you speaking of a security bond or a cash bond?
Q Say a security bond?
A A bond is anything that the Chief of Police deems
necessary up to $300.00.
Q Three Hundred Dollars is the maximum?
A In the REcorder's Court it is.
Q Suppose it is a cash bond?
A It would be the same. Anything that the Chief
67
of Police thinks proper.
Q Now, how soon after one has been arrested - strike
that, please. Is anyone authorized to set bond besides you?
A The Shift Sergeant.
Q Who is the Shift Sergeant, say, about 7:00 o'clock
in the evening?
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
have had the
A
Q
varied?
Depends on which evening.
Lets say Wednesday or Thursday?
Wednesday or Thursday?
What about Tuesday?
Sergeant Hart. In the afternoon?
That's right, say. around about 7:00 o'clock ?
Sergeant Harden.
That was true for August?
Unless he was off for some reason.
Well, whoever was Shift Sergeant at that time would
authority to set bond, would he not?
That's the usual procedure.
What are the circumstances where this procedure is
A If it is flagrant offense, if it is more than a
minor violation the Chief of Pohice will set the bond.
Q And do you endeavor to set the bond promptly?
A I do.
68
Q Could the Shift Sergeant call you on the 'phone
and get a bond set?
A I am usually available.
Q He could call you on the 'phone or the radio and
get a bond?
A I am usually available yes.
Q Chief Josey, I want to ask you about, say, an
illegal parking violation. How does that work? State for example
Reuben Gamble here got a ticket for illegal parking, could he come
down and pay# the thing off?
A He could post a bond, yes.
Q And how much would the bond be?
A If it was a traffic violation, the minimum bond
on the Recorder's Court citation is $12.00.
Q You post a bond, and if you don't come back to
court that takes caee of it?
A The bond is forfeited, not necessarily takes care
of it.
Q What are the circumstances where it doesn't take
care of the offense?
A When the bond is forfeited?
Q Yes, sir?
A I am sure you are familiar with court procedures.
Q Yes, sir, but if the bond is forfeited, what happens
then?
69
court.
A The bond is forfeited if the defendant is not in
offense,
Q All right, and then that takes care of the traffic
and that is what the law provides, isn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q You put up a cash bond in traffic cases?
A Yes.
Q Is that right?
A That's right.
Q It is not necessary for the defendant to come back
to court and appear unless he wants to , is that right?
A It is not necessary, no. He can forfeit a cash
bond, if that satisfies the Judge.
Q Suppose you run through a red light, something
like that?
business,
A You want to know what the bond would be?
Q Yes?
A The minmmum bond is $12.00.
Q When would the bond be mofe than $12.00?
A Depends on the offense.
Q Well, say, running througha red light?
A Well, probably it would be $12.00.
Q You come down and post bond and go on about your
iS ;that right?
A If the officer doesn't bring you down and makes
70
citation, when he writes up the citation, rather.
Q Even after the officer arrest you, you can put
up a cash bond in the police station, can't you?
A You can.
Q You don't want people in jail on traffic offenses,
do you?
A I don't particular want any one in jail.
Q Particularly on a traffic offense?
A On any offense.
Q You always endeavor to set bond as speedily as you
can, is that right?
A I do.
Q Now, do you recall Wednesday, August 11th?
A I do.
Q Do you recall going out Glenwood Avenue?
A I do.
Q And do you recall seeing some people out there
picketing?
A I do.
Q How many police officers did you have out there?
A About five. When are you speaking of.
Q Lets say about 8:30?
A About 8:30, there was between 8 and 10.
Q Pardon me?
71
A There were between 8 and 10 at 8:30.
Q Between 8 and 10 officers about 8:30?
A Right. Between 8:30 and 9:00.
Q Now, who was in charge before you arrived?
A Sergeant Harden. Oh, are you speaking of the time
when I arrived, how many were there?
Q That's right?
A When I arrived there were four there.
Q Did you talk to Sergeant Harden when you arrived
there?
A I did.
Q How long a conversation did you have with him?
A Five or ten minutes.
Q Where did the conversation take place?
A At the corner of Warbash and Glenwood.
Q Now, let me ask you this: The Todd Filling Station,
or Service Station, that is in the Negro community, is it not?
A It is predominately Negro.
Q Most all of the people out there are Negroes, is
that right?
A Most of them, yes.
Q As a matter of fact, Mrs. Todd's Service Station
is the only white business in about three blocks, is that right?
A No.
72
Q Pardon?
A No, that's not right.
Q Well, there is Walker's Service Station up at
the other corner on Glenwood, right?
A Yes, there is Walker's Service Station up there.
Q And then down the street from Walker's Service
Station is the Glenwood Soda Shop, is that right?
A Yes.
Q And down further from that is the Thomas Recreation
Center?
A Right.
Q They are all operated by Negroes, aren't they?
A How far is it from Walker's Service Station to
Todd's Service Station?
Q I don't know. I will have to ask you that. Do you
know?
A It is less than three blocks.
Q Less than three blocks?
A Yes.
Q When was the last time you checked it out?
A I don't remember the last time specifically, but I
believe it is two blocks.
Q There is no white businesses between Walker's
Service Station and the Glenwood Soda Shop, is there?
q A None that I know of, no.
73
Q And when you cross over on the Glenwood Street
on the side where Mrs.Todd is> the west side of the street, the
next thing there is the V.F.W., is that right?
A V.F.W.?
Q Yes?
A There is no V.F.W. in that neighborhood that I
know of.
Q That place is closed now, isn't it?
A What place are you talking about?
Q Where the V.F.W. was?
A There is no V.F.W. there that I know of. There
is no such business as that on Glenwood along there.
Q Now, I believe you said that is a predominate
Negro community along there?
A Yes. It is predominately Negro.
Q And the Glenwood Avenue we are speaking about in
Dublin is actually a part of U. S. 19, isn't it?
A It is.
Q And U. S. 19 starts about three blocks down the
street?
A I believe it is Georgia 19.
Q All right, you say it is Georgia 19?
A Yes.
Q Now, on this occasion you caused about 50 people
to be arrested, is that right?
74
A I did.
Q How many people did you arrest on the street?
A You mean on this particular occasion?
Q That's right.
^ I believe we counted about 52.
Q Now, you arrested about 30 people down the street
next to the Thomas Recreation Center, didn't you, in the garage?
A 1 arrested some down the street near the Thomas
Recreation Center, hear the Scope Headquarters.
Q That is where Scope is, isn't it?
A Yes.
Q What?
A They said it was Scope Headquarters in the rear.
Q You know that, don't you. You kept it under
surveillance, didn't you?
A Not necessarily.
Q Didnjt you go down there and make an investigation?
A I haven't.
Q Have you casued an investigation to be made?
A Not so far as I know.
Q You are concerned abaout what goes on in Dublin?
A What?
Q I say, are you concerned about what goes on in
the City of Dublin?
A 1 am.
75
Q Don't you think it is important to investigate
the Civil Rights Headquarters?
A I haven't had the occasion to arrive.
Q Have you had occasion to cause it to be investigated?
A No, I haven't.
Q So, the night that you went in there on August 7th
was -- I beg your pardon, the night that you went in there on
August 11th, was the first time you had gone into the Scope
Headquarters?
A It is.
Q You told everybody in there to get out, didn't you?
A I gave orders for everybody in that immediate
vicinity to clear out and go to their homes, to clear that immed
iate area.
Q I am asking you about the people who were in the
office on the inside?
A There were people milling around under a shelder
there near the street and the side walk and around the building
in general.
Q wfhat about the ones inside?
A There was some inside.
Q And you told the people inside to get out, didn't
you?
A To go home, to go to their homes and clear that
immediate area.
76
A No, I don't think I counted to three.
Q You didn't?
A I gave them ample time, if that is what you are
Q That you would count to three?
referring to.
Q But you did not count to three?
A No.
q When everybody got out, as soon as you told them,
"get out", you put them under an arrest, didn't you?
A After they had had amaple time to clear that area,
I did.
Q After they had ample time to clear it?
A That's right.
Q You then put them under an arrest?
A I did.
Q That was just a second or two after you said
"get out?"
A
Q
A
Q
to three and
Well, now, it was more than a second.
Well, you promised to count to three, didn't you?
No, sir.
You didn't warn them that you were going to count
if they were not out you were going to put them in
jail?
A I made no such statement.
77
A I advised them if they didn’t clear that immediate
area and go to their homes they would be arrested.
Q Now, you had no search warrant to go into Scope
Headquarters, did you?
A No, I had no search warrant.
Q You hdd no arrest warrant to go into Scope Head
quarters, did you?
A No.
Q You had no warrant of any kind, did you?
A No.
Q You arrested everybody in Scope jHeadquarters, didnt
Q Did you make a statement similar to that?
you?
A So far as I know, we did.
Q Do you remember taking the white girl, Linda DeNotie,
and pulling her out by her arm?
A I remember taking her on the outside, yes, and
placed her in a patrol car.
Q You personally arrested her, didn't you?
A Yes, I did.
Q Now, did you see the Negro girl that was in the
office talking over the telephone?
A I don't recall.
Q But you do know there was somebody making a long
distance call when you went into the office?
78
A
Q
A
Q
with blocking
A
Q
A
Q
i a
the outside.
Q
is that right?
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
No, I don't.
You didn't bother to see, is that right?
No. No one was making a long distance 'phone call.
Now, you charges these people there in the office
the streets, is that right?
Failing to obey a police officer.
And blocking the street, wasn't it?
Blocking the street and side walks.
And these people were on the inside?
Some inside, and there was some milling around on
Now, these people were taken to the county jail,
That's right.
Were they taken down there under your direction?
They were.
How long were they kept in jail?
I don't iknow exactly.
Do you know when they were released?
I know when some of them were released.
That was on Friday, is that right?
Some of them were released on Friday, yes.
Pardon?
I said some of them were released on Friday and
some were released prior to that.
79
q These were the two people that got out on a $200.00
bond?
A I believe they were arraigned before the Superior
Court Judge and a bond was set, or a hearing waived, or something
of that kind.
q You do know that bond was set at $200.00 for each
of the persons that you arrested on August 11th, 1965?
A I believe so.
q And that was a bond with security, is that correct?
A That's right.
q Now, when you went out to Glenwood Avenue on
August 11th you knew that these people were out there picketing
Mrs. Todd's store, didn't you?
A I knew they had been picketing, yes, sir
Q And you knew that they were complaining about her
practice at the gasoline station?
A Yes, I had heard that. I didn't know why they
were picketing.
Q But you knew that they were picketing because they
had grievances with Mrs.Todd, didn't you?
A Well, one of them made the statement that they
were going to close it down, close the station down.
Q You didn't hear that statement directly, did you,
Chief?
A I did.
80
Q When did you hear that statement?
A That was on Tuesday, I believe.
Q This was the day before?
A On a Wednesday morning.
Q Had you been out there in the morning?
A 1 had.
Q And people were out there picketing that morning,
is that right?
A They were.
Q
isn't it?
And this is the time that you set up the barricades,
A They were completely blocking the entrances to
the service station.
Q I am asking you a question now. I am not asking
you about what they were blocking. I asked you if you set up
barricades?
A Yes, I set up barricades to keep them from being
run over by people trying to get in and out of the biriness there.
Q Chief, who set the bond at $200.00?
A Judge Ward, I believe.
Q Was that at your direction?
A I don't usually direct the Superior Court judges.
Q Did you suggest that the bond be set in that
amount?
A No, sir.
81
Well, who convened the commitment hearing?
A Judge Ward convened the commitment hearing.
Q Was that at your suggestion?
A I believe it was.
Q It was at your suggestion?
A Yes, I believe it was.
Q Now, you went out there that morning, on August 11th,
and you saw these people out there picketing, didn't you?
A I did.
Q You saw the signs they were carrying, did you not?
A I did.
Q
A
is one that I
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
What did the sign say?
One of them said: "We've got God. You'ee got Josey',
remember.
You didn't like that, did you?
It didn't bother me particularly.
It bothered you some, didn't it?
Not particularly.
You? mean a sign like that don't disturb you?
Not particularly.
That kind of a sign didn't bother you?
I didn't lose any sleep over it, if that is what
you mean.
Q Well, you had not had a chance to before that night?
82
A Well, I haven't so far.
Q Do you recall any of the other times?
A Yes, sir, there were several carrying signs.
Q But you don't know what those signs said, do
you?
A Well, there were different groups. At times there
were 50 pickets in front of this place. They were carrying all
kinds of signs. They were completely blocking the entrance and
exits to this service station.
Q Were you there throughout Wednesday morning?
A No, I wasn't.
Q You were back at the police station?
A I was attending to the affairs of the Police
Department.
Q You took care of the business at the police de
partment?
A I did.
Q Now, I show you Plaintiff's Exhibit P-2, and ask
you if you recognize that?
A That is the Glenwood road, showing the gas pumps
at the Todd Service Station, I believe.
Q Right. Does it show the street and drive way in
front of Todd Service Station?
A It does.
83
Q What is the distance from the intersection of
Glenwood and Warbash to the end of the property line where Todd's
Service Station is located?
A Approximately 60 feet, I would say.
Q You went out there and measured that off the other
day, didn't you?
A No, sir.
Q Did you have it measured off?
A I have had it measured.
Q And that was since August 11th, right?
A Yes.
Q Now, there are two drive ways entering the Todd
Station on Glenwood Avenue, isn't that correct?
A There are.
Q And there is another drive way or possibly two
drive ways entering Todd's Station from Warbash, is that correct?
A Yes, you can enter it from Warbash.
Q So there are three entrances and three exits to
the Service Station and pumps, is that right?
A Yes, there are.
Q Now, you set up the barricades on the Glenwood
side of the station, is that right?
A That's right.
Q And you barricade the drive way nearest Warbash,
is that correct?
84
A I did.
Q Which is near the Sinclair sign there?
A I barricaded the side the pickets were on.
Q All right, the pickets were walking up and down
the street, is that correct?
A On the side walk, yes.
Q And they were walking one behind the other, and
would walk a distance of 60 feet, like I started to do then, and
go down the end of the drive way and turn around and come back
up to Warbash?
A Right.
Q One right behind the other, didn't they?
A That's right.
RHE COURT: How many pickets were there?
THE WITNESS: It varied, Judge, from 20 oti up to 50 or
60 sometimes.
THE COURT: And that was right in front of Todd's
Service Station?
THE WITNESS: Right in front of the service station.
THE COURT: And how long or how wide was Todd's Service
Station?
THE WITNESS: It is about sixty feet frontage.
THE COURT: And you say sometimes the maximum number
of pickets was what?
85
THE WITNESS: Between 40 and 60, I would say, at least
50, Judge.
Q Now, they never picketed on the Warbash side of
the station, did they?
A Not that I know of.
Q Right. Now, these picekts, were there 20 or 50 on
August hlth of August?
A Now, I would like to make it clear. This Warbash
would be a secondary entrance, a secondary street.
Q All right. But on the Warbash side there were no
picketing?
A None that I saw.
Q You didn't put up in barricades on the Warbash
side, did you?
A No.
Q And you didn't put up any barricades at the second
drive way leading into Todd's Service Station on the Glenwood
side, did you? You only put the barricades up in one area, is
that right? s
A I put the barricades up where the pickets were.
Q So that the pickets could walk in that area, is
that right? !
A So that the traffic trying to go in and out could
do so. I had reports where they tried to be run over. They
refused to get out of the drive way and the people didn't stop.
86
Q That is what you heard?
A That's right.
Q You didnjt hear that from the pickets, did you?
A That was the complaints.
Q And then you blockaded the drive way?
A I called the city warehouse and had them send some
barricades up there.
Q Now, describe these barricades that you had, sir?
A They are two by fours, painted yellow and painted
black and white.
Q How high and how wide were they?
A They are approximately three and a half feet high.
Q And how wide were they?
A How wide?
Q Yes? How long were they?
A They are two by four wide.
Q All right, what about the length from one leg to
the other leg, between legs?
A There various sizes.
Q What were the sizes that you used?
A I don't recall. I didn't measure them.
9 But they were adequate ]Ato block off that drive
way, weren't they?
A They were.
Q YQur answer is yes, is that right?
87
A Yes, they were.
Q All right, you blocked off this drive way so that
the pickets would haee a continuous area in which to march, one
behind the other, and turn around up at the second drive way and
come back to Warbash, is that right?
A That wasn't necessarily my purpose. I know for a
fact that they had intimidated people who had stopped at the
service tank and almost caused trouble while I was standing there
in person.
Q And you would not let any trouble break out while
you were there, would you?
A Not if I could help it.
Q That's right?
A They were threatening this subject who was buying
gas there and trouble almost errupted.
Q Now, this is what Mrs. Todd told you?
A This is what I heard with my own ears and what I
saw myself. The subject was driving a 1964 yellow Chevrolet.
Q All right, whate else do you remember about it?
A I believe it was a 1965 yellow Chevrolet. I remember
he was a white male with blond crew cut hair.
Q Do you remember anything else about him?
A I remember one or two of the pickets threatening
him for buying gas.
88
Q YOu don't l$now who these pickets were, do you?
A No, I couldn't tell you that.
Q You didn&'t bring any charges against anybody who
was picketing for an assault, did you?
A No.
Q You didn't bring any charges against any pickets
for battery, did you?
A No.
Q The only charge you ever brought against any
picket in that line was for obstructing the side walk?
A That's right.
Q Now, you built this barricade and once you built
the barricade they could have access to Mrs. Todd's pump at the
first drive way and at the Warbash drive way, is that right?
A Who do you mean "they"?
Q The pickets. Strike that. The motorists coming
into the station?
A They would have to come in on the Warbash side
and go down to the very far end and turn and come back up to the
pumps on the Glenwood side.
Q They could drive right into the pumps from the
Glenwood side couldn;t they? They could drive right up to the
pumps on the Glenwood side from Warbash, couldn't they?
A On the far side.
Q That;s right. They pump from both sides of the
89
gas pump, don/t they?
A As far as I know.
Q Yes. Now, the pickets were always on the side
walk. You didn't arrest anybody for trespassing on Mrs.Todd's
property, did you?
A No, I didn't.
Q Now, I believe you went back out there the following
day, is that right?
A What?
Q You went back out there on the following day, which
was on the 12th, on Thursday?
A It is possible.
Q You did?
A I am sure I did.
Q What time did you go out there?
A Various times during the day, probably.
Q How many times did you go out there during the day?
A I don't know.
Q Did you see any pickets out there?
A Yes, sir, there were some pickets out there.
Q At this time you had about 50 people in Jail,
didn't you?
A There were some in jail, yes.
Q Would 50 be an accurate number?
A I believe it would be accurate because two made
bond, probably two of the leaders.
Q How many pickets jfidid you see out there on the 12th,
during the day?
A I informed these people that they were having an
excessive amount of pickets there, that six pickets should be
adequate to picket that filling station, that they had a right
to picket, if they had a grievance with that service station, but
they didnjt have a right to block the entrances, the ingress or
egress, or anyone going in or out of that station or to intimidate
anyone stopping there to trade and that they should limit their
pickets to six.
Q How did you arrive at six pickets?
A In the space there for them to picket, six would
be adequate, in my opinion, and that every one and anyone travelling
that road could see them and six should not be in danger of being
run over by cars entering or leaving that service station.
Q You don't have any ordinance in the city of Dublin
regulating the pickets, do you?
A No, sir.
Q Chief Josey, I show you Plaintiff's Exhibit "P-3"
and I ask you if you are able to recognize the scene there?
A That is Todd's Service Station. That is the
Glenwood Road.
Q Do you recognize that police car?
91
Dublin.
picketing?
Q
A
Q
I
A
Q
taken?
Q
A
Q
A
isn't it?
A
Q
arenjt they?
A
were driving
Q
don't you?
A
That is a police car that belongs to the City of
Do you see any persons there picketing?
I do.
Can you determine the number of persons there
I believe it's five. I believe I see five there.
You don't see more than five?
Not that I can determine, no. When was this picture
It says "July 12th", don it, on the back?
It doesn't say anything on the back.
That police car is blocking the drive way, isn't it?
Partially.
And the service station is filled with automobiles,
Apparently so.
People going in there, pumping gas and driving out,
Well, there are cars in there. I couldn't say they
in and out. They are in there in this picture.
In that picture you see business going on as usual,
I don't see anyone at the gas pumps, if you mean
92
they are pumping gas, I
there.
don;t see anyone handling the pumps
premises.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
you know the
12th?
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
with another
Q
A
Q
You see cars in there, don't you?
I see cars in this parking area there on the
Now, did you, yourself, arrest anybody on the 12th?
I couldfiossibly have.
Pardon?
I possibly could have, yes.
Do you know the names of the person arrested? Do
name of the persons who arrested the people onthe
Which people do you have in mind?
The pickets?
Yes, I do.
Who was that person or persons?
Lt. DeLoach arrested some.
Is he associated with your department, or is he
agency?
He is with my department.
He is an officer with your department?
He is.
Do you know whether or not he was in plain clothes
or in uniform on the 12th?
93
A He was in plain clothes. He is a plain clothes
investigator, probably he and Sergeant Daniels and Sergeant Harden.
Q And these people too were held in jail until that
Friday, is that right?
A Probatty until they made bond.
Q And the bond was $200.00?
A That's right.
THE COURT: Who do you mean by "these people"?
MR. MOORE: Pickets.
Q The people who were arrested for obstructing the
street while picketing were held in jail until that Friday on the
13th on $200.00 bond, isn't that right?
A That's right. A $200.00 security bond or property
bond.
Q Chief Josey, I think it is your testimony that
you didn't arrest anyone on the 12th, did you?
A No, it wasn't.
Q What?
A No, it wasn't my testimony that I didn't arrest
anyone on the 12th.
Q You didn't arrest anyone on the 12th?
I don't recall. Who do you have in mind?
Q Well, did you arrest anyone who was picketing? on
the 12th?
A No, I didn't.
94
THE COURT: Anything else?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: I thought you had finished.
Q Did you file a petition in the Superior CQurt on
the 12th of August?
A Did I file a petition in the Supeeior Court?
Q Yes, sir?
A Not to my knowledge. What do you have in mind?
Q Did you go before Judge Ward on the 12th of August
and get an order?
A I did.
Q Chief Josey, I will ask you if this is a copy of
the order that you got from Judge Ward on August 12th, marked
"Exhibit D" to the plaintiffs' petition?
MR. HAYES: Your Honor, for the purpose of saving time
we will that that order was signed and so forth, as attached to
the petition.
THE WITNESS: It is.
THE COURT: All right.
Q All right. Did you file a written petition in the
Superior Court?
A I did not.
Q You procured this order on the basis of your oral
representation, is that right?
95
A I did.
Q Chief Josey, did you receive a telegram advising
you that a petition was being filed enjoining you in this case?
A I did.
Q Did you receive that telegram on Monday, August 16th?
A I did. I believe it was on Monday, August 16th.
MR. MOORE: No further auestions.
THE COURT: All right, any questions by you?
MR. HAYES: Your Honor, if I am wrong, correct me. He
is on cross examination and --
THE COURT: (Interposing) That's correct. You are right.
You will have an opportunity to put him up later, but he is not
subject to cross examination or direct examination at this time
by you*
MR. HAYES: I would like to have the right to recall him.
THE COURT: Certainly. You are right. You can recall
him later.
MR. MOORE: It might expedite time, if he went ahead now.
THE COURT: No, I had rather take it in an orderly manner,
in a legal manner. You don't seem to be in a hurry, so we will
take him in order. I had rather take it up in regular order. It
is my understanding of the law that when you put a witness up for
cross examination as an adverse witness he is not subject to cross
examination but that does not preclude the party who brought him
into court from using him as his witness when the time comes.
96
MR. MOORE: Now, Your Honor, we at this time offer the
affidavits on the motion for a preliminary injunction.
THE COURT: Well, is that permissible, affidavits?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir, on a motion for a preliminary
injunction.
THE COURT: We are trying the preliminary and permanent
injunction, that's right. All right.
MR. HAYES : Your Honor, for the purpose of the record
we object to these affidavits on the basis that they are given
by individuals that I presume are not in court and not subject
to cross examination. We had no notice that these affidavits
would be submitted, therefore, we had no chance to cross examine
these people.
THE COURT: Ordinarily that would be true, but these are
affidavits which are submitted when he came before me the first
time, I presume, in support --
MR. HAYES: (Interposing) No, sir.
THE COURT: I presume in support of a temporary restraining
order which I would not grant and which I continued until today.
MR. HAYES: No, sir. These are additional affidavits.
When he brought his original petition he had two affidavits, one
by Reuben Gamble and one by a Bernice Turner.
THE COURT: Well, are they now in court?
MR. MOORE: They are available for cross examination.
THE COURT: How is that?
97
MR. MOORE: They are available for cross examination,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: They are available for cross examination?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right, that will take care of that.
All right, now, you may proceed.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, pardon me. We offer plaintiffs'
exhibits "P-2 and P-3" along with the verified petition in this
case.
TI COURT: All right, any objections to those affidavits?
I mean those pictures?
MR. HAYES: No, sir, we have no objections.
THE COURT: All right, they are admitted without
objection.
MR. HAYES: I do have further objections to this affidavit,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, they will be subject to cross examin
ation. The attorney says that they are here and they will be
subject to cross examination.
MR. HAYES: Well, I feel, if they are here, rather than'
use these affidavits he should put them on the stand and let them
testify rather than have the affidavits.
THE COURT: Well, you can put them up.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir.
98
THE COURT: All right, anything else?
MR. MOORE: The Plaintiffs rest.
THE COURT: All right, anything for the defendants?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right, you may proceed.
MR. HAYES: I would like to call Harold E. Ward.
THE COURT: All right.
THE MARSHAL: Judge Ward, come around to the stand.
99
HAROLD E. WARD. SWORN FOR THE DEFENDANTS, TESTIFIED.
ON DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HAYES:
Q
A
Q
A
Circuit.
Q
A
Q
that consist
A
Counties.
Q
A
Circuit for
Q
A
Q
A
Attorney.
Will you state your name?
Harold E. Ward.
What is your profession?
Judge of the Superior Court, Dublin Judicial
How long have you been so elected?
Since December 28th, 1960
When you say the Dublin Judicial Circuit, what does
of?
That includes Laurens, Truetlin, Twiggs and Johnson
Did you hold any elective office jfarior to that time?
I was Solicitor General of the Dublin Judicial
four years.
For how long?
From January 1st, 1957 to December 28th, 1960.
And, what did you do previous to that time?
From 1953 through 1956 I served as Laurens County
Q Talk just a little louder, Judge.
A From 1953 through 1956 I served as Laurens County
Attorney. From 1951 until 1953 I served as Attorney for the town
100
of East Dublin. I began the practice of law in Dublin in 1950.
Q Are you admitted to practice law in the United
States District Court for the Southern District of Georgia?
A I am/ yes.
Q On the 11th day of August, 1965, at approximately
6:00 P. M., on that date, where were you?
A That was one of the days that there had been some
picketing around Todd's Service Station, and I had a keen interest
in the situation throughout Dublin, and so I rode out past Todd's
Service Station and observed as to what may or may not be going on.
Q Now, when you say Todd's Service Station, that's
Todd Service Station located where?
A It is located on the ast margin of Glenwood Avenue
and also known as the Southside Service Station.
Q Judge Ward, do you recognize those pictures?
A Yes, I recognize Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 2 as
being taken from the east margin of Glenwood Avenue at the inter
section of Warbash, showing the Sinclair sigdn of Todd's Service
Station. And Plaintiff's Exhibit,No. 1, as showing the entrance
to Todd's Service Station, with a police car, which apparently
is a City of Dublin Police car.
MR. MOORE: Excuse me. I think you made an error there.
THE WITNESS: Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 3.
MR. MOORE: That's right.
101
THE WITNESS: Exhibit No. 3, showing apparently a Dublin
City Police car in the entrace of Todd's Service Station and cer
tain unidentifiable persons marching on the side walk, or walking
on the side walk.
Q Now, I believe you said you were in that area on
August 11th, 1965?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what time did you say?
A It would have been very briefly after six o'clock,
within ten or fifteen minutes.
Q You mean 6:00 P. M.?
A Yes, 6:00 P. M.
Q Why did you go there?
A As I stated, I was interested in this situation
that existed in Dublin and had tried to keep in close contact
with what was going on as humanly possible, and therefore I rode
out there to determine what was going on at that time, if anything.
Q Will you reveal to this Court what you observed
there at that time on that date?
A Well, in a northwestly direction from Todd's
Service Station is located what is known as The Glenwood Soda
Shop, and I believe in the back of the Glenwood Soda Shop is a
beer parlor, and there were a number of persons congregated in
that area. There were some five or six policemen and, if I am
102
not mistaken, some of them were regular city policemen and some
of them were auxiliary policemen. I believe the city has about
23 auxiliary policemen. On further up, on the right-hand, or the
west margin of Glenwood there was a considerable gathering of
on-lookers. Inside of the side walk of Todd's Service Station
there were several cars with a number of young white boys. I dont
recall seeing any young girls, and I would estimate at that time
about 35 persons picketing and some of them carrying signs and
some of them not carrying signs. I don't recall what was said
on all of those signs. I think one sign did say: "Our face maybe
black but our money is green."
THE COURT: What was that?
THE WITNESS: "Our face maybe black but our money is
green."
Q You say there were how many pickets at that time?
A I would estimate it in the vicinity of 35.
Q Where were they located?
A They were located on the side j*alk in front of
Todd's Service Station and marching up and down throughout the
area of the Sinclair property.
Q Is that service station located on a highway?
A It is located on State Highway No. 19, and I
believe the U. S. Highway designation is 319.
Q Is that a heavily travelled highway?
103
A It is a north - south highway and is extremely
heavily travelled.
Q Now, the pickets were located where, in relation
to that highway?
A They were located on the East margin, on the side
walk, on the east margin.
Q What else did you see other than that?
A Well, as I stated, I saw the pickets with the
various signs walking up and down the side walk in front of the
building. I saw crowds congregated across the street in three
cr four locations. I saw a number of white boys congregated inside
of the perimeter of Todd Service Station, and people were freely
walking to and from across the street in rather large numbers. I
would estimate at that time the ;total number of persons in that
area, which would be less than onehalf of a block, would have
been a minimum of 200.
Q What color were these people?
A There was one girl who was knownto me as Linda
DeNotie, or DeNoter, and she is white. I don't recall and I
don't believe he was there, I don't believe Max Carl Rice was
there at that time. I don't think he was there during a period
of two or three days. Tfyere was a three or four day interval
that he was not in Dublin. The jx’emiinder of the pickets were
all Negroes.
104
Q Can you describe more specifically to this court
what you mean by there were crowds across the street in three
or four locations?
A Well, you would see a cluster of people there.
You couldn't tell whether they were curiosity seekers, or what
they might have been, and everybody had their eyes focused on
the pickets.
MR. MOORE: I object to that,Your Honor, as being a
conclusion as to where their eyes were focused.
THE WITNESS: I will say from my observation I concluded,
well, that would be a conclusion, but from my bbservation apparently
most people were looking at the pickets, and the vehicular traffic
would slow down and quite a number of people would turn and cast
their eyes toward the pickets.
MR. HAYES: Is that all right?
THE COURT: I think that makes it admissible. I mean
by the supplemented statement that you made perhaps covers it
and make it admissible.
MR. HAYES: I didn't mean to go on and --
THE COURT: (Interposing) That's all right.
Q In these crowds, in these various locations, were
they colored people or white people?
A Primarily colored, but there were a number of whites
too, but most of the whites, like I said, in the perimeter of
Todd's Service Station and I would say there were probably 10 or 12
105
in there and there were a few whites across the street in front
of some residences which are immediately south of the Glenwood
Soda Shop.
Q Now, this place that you have described there as
a beer joint, I mean a place to dispense beer, where is that
located with reference to Todd's Service Station?
A That is owned by Mr. Cecil Claxton of Wrightsville,'
Georgia, who is a white man and it is lamed lately in the rear of
the Glenwood Soda Shop.
Q In the rear of what?
A Glenwood Soda Shop.
Q And where is Glenwood Soda Shop located with re
ference to this filling station, Todd Service Station?
A It would be north, or rather just diagonally across
the street. s
Q And you say you know of your own knowledge that the
Glenwood Soda Shop is owned by Cecil Claxton, who is a white man?
A Yes, because he has contacted me.
Q And that is directly across the street from Todd's
Service Station?
A Diagnoally across the street.
Q Now, were these people that you observed obstructing
the side walk?
A At the time I observed them, but I did not, and I
want to make this clear here, there were some cases made later
that night that some maybe certioraried to the superior court
and by permission of the court I had rather not answer any ques
tion in regard to what might have occurred that night, in fact,
I don't know what occurred that night because I wasn't present,
but I don't want to put myself in a posigion of disqualifying
myself in the trial of any certioraries that might come before
me in the future.
THE COURT: All right.
Q Judge Ward, I appreciate that, but maybe you didn't
understand my question?
A I think I understood it, but I wanted a clarifi
cation.
Q All right, sir.
A At the time I observed it, which was sometime
shortly after 6:00 o'clock, I would say that the number of pickets
that were there that you or myself or any other person in the court
room would have had an extremely difficult time in --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I object to that, Your Honor.
I think that is a conclusion.
THE COURT: I don't know. He is stating a fact. He has
not finished with his testimony. Lets let him get through testi
fying, but what I think he is covering now are the facts leading
up to it, as to what he is going to testify to.
THE WITNESS: Well, I will describe it this way: As the
107
pickets would march south they would get to the end of the
property, and then they would turn around, and at that time
there were points in there where there was a double aline, not
a single line, from the point of turn around, all the others hadn't
reached the end of the line at that time, therefae, from my
observation of it, hdd I gotten out of the automobile to be
a pedestrian on that particular portion of the side walk it
would have been extremely difficult to pass.
Q I will ask you whether or not - I will ask you
where those pickets were located that you observed with reference
to the drive way of the filling station, the ingress and egress
at the filling station?
A Well, I go out there quite a lot because my maid
lives down Gray street, which is adjacent also to the Todd Service
Station, and they covered the area from the intersection of
Warbash to the end of the Sinclair prppprty. They did not cover
any of the area on Warbash.
Q Would that area that you have just described in
clude the entrance and the exit to this filling station?
A Those on the Glenwood Highway, yes, sir.
Q Now, Judge Ward, what did you then do?
A After that?
Q Yes, sir?
A As I recall, I went home.
Q You went home?
108
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you go back through that location at anytime
during the remainder of that day?
A No, sir.
Q Do you recall on the morning of the 13th of August,
1965, any proceedings in your court concerning any arrests made
by the City Police, the Sheriff's Office and the GBI Agents of
the previous night?
A Yes, on the night of the 12th I was advised that
certain arrests had been made. I was unadvised as to the total
number. On the night of the 11th, it was, I was advised that
certain arrests had been made but wag not advised as to the number.
Early on the morning of August 12th ?Chief Josey came by the office,
and I believe I suggested this; that since there had been so many
questions, or rather bringing up the pi point that they were not
allowed commitment hearings and the courts had decided ;that
question so often that even those were city cases and since they
were lodged in the county jail that they should be given an
oppeotfcnity to either have a commitment hearing - and that I
would make myself available to conduct the commitment hearing,
or they could waive a hearing and the court would set a bond.
Q That was the conversation that you had with Chief
Josey, the defendant in this case?
A Yes, sir, and at 9:30, A. M., on the morning of
August 12th I had the official Court Reporter for the Dublin
v
Judicial Circuit present and I had Mr. W. W. Larsen, Jr., the
Solicitor General, present, because you were absent. I realized
that you were City Attorney but you were not present at that time.
I had the entire proceedings transcribed and had the Court Reporter
to type out everything that occurred.
Q Now, these proceedings were held at what time with
reference to the time that the arrests were made?
A The best of my information I have is that the
arrests were made around 9:30 the previous evening.
Q What date was that, Judge?
A August lltfc, 1965, and I held the commitment hearing
at 9:30, A. M., August 12th, 1965.
Q Did the Chief inform you, or do you know, of your
own knowledge, how many defendants there were?
A At the call of the case - well, I have 52 and one
includes a Shirly Bolden. The reason I call your attention to
that is that she was in jail on ano ther charge.
Q She was in jail on another charge?
A Yes.
Q Does those names on your proceeding there correspond-
with the names in that removal proceedings?
A If I might spot check this. The order in which
I have the names are not in the same order in which you have the
names.
MR. MOORE: We might check it.
110
MR. HAYES: I am fixing to read them.
THE COURT: All right, go ahead.
MR, HAYES: If Your Honor please, the attorney for the
plaintiffs and I stipulate that all of these names on this removal
petitinn arethe same as referred to here.
THE WITNESS: Well, I might state with two exceptions.
The names Reuben Gamble and Bernice Turner are not on the transcript
that I have because they had previously posted bond.
MR. MOORE: That is true.
THE COURT: All right.
Q Now, will you identify that, Judge Ward?
A This is the official transcript, signed by Floyd
K. Horton, Official Court Reporter for the Dublin Judicial Circuit,
Dublin,Georgia, of a commitment hearing, charging some 51 named
persons with violation of City Code Section 26-22.
THE COURT: What is that Code Section?
THE WITNESS: That is unlawful assembly and the obstruct
ion of public ways and side walks.
THE COURT:Allr right.
THE WITNESS: The Court brought the parties before the
Court for the purpose of asking them if they desired to have a
commitment hearing or if they wanted the court to appoint them
an attorney or to set them a bond, and that applied to everyone
except Shirley Bolden,and a spokesman for the group stated that
they desired a bond, and the Court stated that was for everyone
Ill
except Shirley Bolden, and Shirley Bolden was charged in a state
wriminal warrant, issued by myself, on August 11th, 1965 for
cussing in the presence of a female and simple assault by apprck-
prious words.
Q Now, you know, of your own knowledge, that the
case against Shirley Bolden is a state case?
A I issued the warrants.
Q Now, do you know anything about the case of Herman
Kirkland?
A No, sir, except what I hzve heard. I have no direct
knowledge of it.
Q With reference to the transcript of the record
there, what was the response from the defendants?
A ^Reading) "By the Court: Now, do you want the
court to set you a bond, or do you want a commitment hearing"?
SPOKESMAN FOR THE GRO UP: Yes, sir, a bond." And the Court
then set a bond for $200.00, and earlier the question came up as
to the bond. Now, a previous bond had been given to Reuben Gamble
and Bernice Turner of $200.00, and they being similar cases I
set a like bond.
Q Do you know when Bernice Tuener and Reuben Gamble
were released from jail on bond?
A I am certain that Reuben Gamble was released the
night of August 11th. I am not certain about her.
Q That was the night of the arrest?
112
A Yes, sir. I am not certain about Bernice Turner.
Q Now, those individuals who were arrested on the
11th and given a hearing on the 12th, did they make bond?
A To my knowledge none of them made bond.
Q Did you have any transactions or communications
with any individuals who were interested in making bond for some
of these individuals charged?
A I did.
Q Has that with this group that we have just gone
into?
A No
MR. MOORE: I object to that, that is a conclusion.
THE COURT: He asked him if he himself had any communicat
ion.
MR. MOORE: We think that he certainly could testify
that he had communication but he couldn't testify as to what
the subsequent communications were, and --
THE COURT: (Interposing) Well, he can testify to
anything that he knew. Of course, what anybody told him would
be hearsay. If I was go to somebody here and tell him something
that I knew, you could ask me whether I did it or not.
THE WITNESS: In order to shorten this, I think what I
would have to say would be hearsay, Mr. Hayes. It does not come
from anay of the defendants. It comes from a third party.
THE COURT: Then that would be hearsay.
THE WITNESS: I think it would too, Your Honor.
Q Now, Judge Ward, on the date of the 12th of August,
1965, did you hold another commitment hearing concerning these
arrests?
A Yes, sir. I was advised about 4:00, somewhere in
the neighborhood thereof, that some 22 persons had been arrested
at this same location, and charged with the violation of City
Code Section 26-22. I notified Chief Josey that I felt a like
procedure should be followed and that they should be given an
opportunity to have a hearing, or to have a bond assessed. I was
then advised that Attorney Jackson was in jail, I mean at the
jail conferring with his clients, I didn't mean in jail, and so
I asked that he come to the court room, and they brought the 22
to the court room and you were present and Mr. Larsen, the Solicitor
General was present, and you handled apy arraignment and advised
them as to their rights. First, I asked Attorney Jackson in the
presence of his attorney - I mean I asked Attorney Jackson in
the presence of his clients, if he wanted a hearing. The only
purpose of holding a hearing was to try to get some of these
people out of jail, and then I gave Attorney Jackson time to
dLscuss with his clients as to what they wanted to do, and if ny
recollection is correct two of the 22 wanted to set a bond. Then
Attorney Jackson asked that 12 of the 22, who ere juveniles, be
bound over to the Laurens Juvenile Court, and for the eight re
maining that he be granted a commitment hearing for them, that's
the best of my recollection.
Q Were these defendants that were juveniles bound
over to a Juvenile Court?
A Yes. Now, let me put it this way. This is an
order that I signed on the 13th of August. Your Honor, may I
read the order?
THE COURT: Certainly, go ahead.
THE WITNESS: (Reading) "Georgia, Laurens County. After
consultation with Dublin Chief of Police, W. D. Josey, it was
determined that some 30 persons are presently incarcerated in
the local jail, charged with violation of Dublin City Code
Settion 26-22, who are 15 and 16 years of age. It is the agreed
opinion of Chief Josey and the undersigned that it is in the best
interest of said juveniles and all concerned to release said
minors from confinement in the custody of their parents or
guardians, IT IS THEREFORE ORDERED that all persons incareerated
in the Lauresn County jail for appearance in the Dublin Recorders'
Court,who are under 17 years of age, be released to their parents
or guardians for appearance in Recorder's Court for the City of
Dublin on Monary August 16th, 1965 , at 9:00 A. M. o'clock, either
for trial by the Recorder or for referral to the Laurens Juvenile
Court for apprptiate action. So ordered, this 13th day of August,
1965. Signed Harold E. Ward, Judge Laurens Superior Court.
In further answer to your question, I was later advised
that Judge Wilkes in the Recorder's Coaurt had referred certain
115
juveniles to the Juvenile Court, but no formal order has yet been
passed giving the Juvenile Court its jurisdiction.
Q Now, when you say juveniles, is that seventeen
and under?
A No, under seventeen.
Q Under seventeen?
A Yes.
MR. HAYES: Now, Your Honor, the attorney for the
opposite side has agreed and stipulated that these individuals
named and designated in Court case No. 1734 are the same individuals
that Judge Ward has just testified to about holding this hearing.
THE COURT: All right, is that right?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir.
MR. HAYES: And further that /jthe individuals designated
in case No. 1735, now on trial, are the same individuals that
Judge Ward referred to in his commitment hearing, the commitment
hearing before him on the 12th day of August, 1965, with the
exception of Reuben Gamble and Bernice Turner.
THE COURT: All right.
Q Did Chief Josey state to you why these individuals
were placed in --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I object to that,Your Honor,
that is certainly hearsay and probable self-serving.
THE COURT: How is that/ I didn't catch it.
MR. MOORE: We object to the question, Your Honor, that
116
Chief Josey stated why certain individuals and so forth, as that
the Laurens County jail rather than the Dublin City jail when they
were charged with an offense against the City of Dublin?
A Well, knowing of the facilities for accomodating
a large number of persons I could only conclude that the facilities
at the city jail were inadequate, and we have a large jail at the
county jail, and the city jail will not hold as large a number
as the county jail.
MR. MOORE: I move to strike the answer on the ground
that the proper foundation has not been laid for him to answer
that particular question.
MR. HAYES: Well, I will just withdraw the whole thing,
the question and answer and let it go at that.
would be hearsay. w
MR. HAYES: I will withdraw it.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. MOORE: And it would also be hearsay*
THE COURT: I think it would. I think you will agree
with that.
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir. I will withdraw the question.
THE COURT: All right.
Q Do you know 'why these individuals were placed in
THE COURT: All right.
Q Judge Ward, do you know when the picketing movement
first started in Laurens County,Georgia?
117
MR. MOORE: I object to -- I will withdraw that objection.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: The picketing movement, there had been no
picketing until the latter part of July.
Q Of what ^year?
A 1965.
Q Have you observed the picketing carried on in
Dublin,Georgia, during the latter part of 1965, the latter part
of July, 1965?
A Yes, I have.
Q Will you state to the Court what you haee observed,
Judge Ward?
A I observed, and I believe my date tfwill be correct
on Sunday July 25th I went to the Cith Hall as I had been advised
there might be some efforts to integrate the First Baptist Church.
I was familiar with the policies of the First Baptis Church. At
that time, about 11:30, well after church hours had begun, a group
began marching with signs in front of the City Hall, inside of
the City propery, on the side walk, which is not a public side walk
but a side walk leading from the public side ̂ alk to the entrance
of the City Hall. They were carrying various signs relative to
"Price fire Josey and Jackson."
THE COURT: What?
THE WITNESS: One of the signs read: "Fire Josey and
Jackson".
118
THE COURT: Who was Price?
THE WITNESS: Price was our Mayor, the one that died
last night
THE COURT: Oh.
THE WITNESS: One of the signs said "Price fire Josey
and Jackson."
Q Now, you said it was not a public side walk, what
do you mean?
A It would be in effect a public side walk. You have
a parking area. You have a side walk at the street level. You
have the parking area and then you have an interior side walk
leading from Academy Avenue fkt the one side and Bellevue Avenue
on the other side, running north and south, and then you come to
the center and you have a walkway going into the City Hall.
Q So, the side walk is open to the public?
A Yes.
Q What kind of property is it on?
A Public property, owned by the City of Dublin.
Q Did you bbserve these pickets at that time?
A Yes, sir.
Q Can you describe the picketing to the Court?
A I don't recall having heard any words said Ijy
any of the pickets. They marched up and down in front of the
Cityh Hall, as stated. I believe the correct figure would be 39.
Q How do you know that figure?
119
A I counted them,
Q Now, this 39 pickets, what area were they covering?
A They were covering the area from on the side j*alk
from Academy Avenue across the city property on the side walk,
passed through or by the entrance to the city hall, to the walkway
going to the city hall, to Bellevnue Avenue and turn around and
go back the opposite direction.
Q Can you estimate the distance covered by these
39 pickets?
A In my opinion, from the side walk on Academy Avenue
tt> the side walk on Bellevue Avenue would be approximately 55 feet.
Q How long?
A From 55 to 65 feet.
Q So they were picketing in an area from 55 to 65
feet?
A Yes, from 55 to 65 feet, I would say.
q What effect, if any, were these pickets having
with reference to the streets and side walk?
A Well, the persons that I observed going into the
city hall - now, most of them that I observed going into the
city hall were coming in from the Bellevue side, and then they
would come to the side walk on Academy Avenue and walk on up the
side walk passed the walkway where the pickets were walking and
then walk across the grass into the city# hall.
Q You mean by that the side walk was blocked by the
120
pickets?
MR. MOORE: I object to that. That is calling for the
witness to confirm a conclusion of counsel.
THE COURT: Well, what was the question again?
MR. HAYES: Judge, I asked him if he meant by his previous
testimony that the side walk was blocked by the pickets.
THE COURT: I think that is admissible.
THE WITNESS: Should a person have blocked his automobile
in front of the city# hall and --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I object to that as being
s peculative.
THE WITNESS: He lives there. He ought to know. Are
you familiar with it?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I am thoroughly familiar with
the physicil surroundings around the city hall as to the parking
facilities, as to the side walks and as to the streets.
THE COURT: I think that is admissible.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, the witness is saying that should
a person park there, I don't think that type of a hypothetical --
THE COURT: (Interposing) Well, maybe he should not have
said should. Perhaps he should have used some other word, but the
substance is the same.
THE WITNESS: Mr. Hayes, in response to your question,
Dr. Joel Radney parked his car in front of the city hall in the
parking lot and he came around and went - to go into the building
121
and on the walkway, as stated, they were wafcking back and forth
so he walked to the Bellevue Avenue side walk, walked up Bellevue
Avenue and went into the city hall on the grass.
Q You know that of your personal knowledge?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, did you make an effort to get into the city
hall?
A Yes, sir.
Q How did you get in there?
A Well, I parked my car at the Bellevue Pharmacy and
walked.
Q Were you hindered in any manner by anything?
A No, sir.
MR. MOORE: I object to that about whether he was hindered
by anything or not.
THE COURT: He said no,
Q Now, did you observe anything further on that date?
A On that date church broke up very shortly after
twelve o clock. A few people from the church across the street
came over, very calmly. The FBI was there, CMef Josey was there,
Sheriff Bussell was there, and Sergeant Harden was there. Officer
Brantley was there, Officer Jackson was there, Sergeant Daniels
was there, GBI Agent Walden was there, Lt. Spurlin of the GBI was
there. Mr. Applegate of the FBI was there and two other unidentified
FBI men were there, and several other officers, auxilliary police
122
men, some of whom I don't know their names.
Q Judge, these officers that you have described,
other than the ones you have identified as being members of the
GBI and the FBI, whose officers were they?
A Police officers of the City of Dublin.
Q Now, that was on what date?
A On Sunday, July 25th.
Q 1965?
A 1965.
Q from what you observed, would you say these pickets
had adequate police protection?
MR. MOORE: I object to that,Your Honor. That calls
fer a conclusion of fact that is for the court to pass on and not
the witness on the stand.
THE COURT: What is that now?
MR. MOORE: Counsel for the defendant is asking the
witness on the stand to make a judgment as to an ultimate con
clusion of fact whether or not there was adequate police protection
there.
THE COURT: Well, now, here is a man, according to his
testimony, has been prosecuting attorney for the County, four
counties in the Dublin Judicial Circuit, he is also Judge of the
Superior Court for that Circuit and in Laurens County in which
Dublin is located, and if he don't know, I don't know who in the
world would.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, he has not been qualified, and
there has not been a proper foundation laid for this type of
testimony from this particular witness, opinion testimony from
this particular type of witness. It is very true the things
that you stated but at --
THE COURT: (Interposing) And he also stated that he
knew that property and saw everything that was going on at that
time. I think I will admit it as it now stands.
MR. MOORE: I just want to note my objection.
THE COURT: That's all right.
Q Would you answer the question please?
A Well, I would say, from my knowledge of the events
as they occurred, and with probably twenty officers present, there
was more than adequate police protection.
Q Now, do you know whether or not any arrests were
made concerning those individuals that you have described picketing
on that date?
A There was not.
Q Now, Judge Ward, on any other dates, have you
observed picketing in the City of Dublin, Georgia, other than
diat you have told us?
A Well, I have observed it on any number of occasions
in going home to lunch and so forth in front of the city hall.
Q Have you observed picketing in any other place
in Dublin,Georgia, other than the city hall?
124
A I observed, as I have previously testified, at the
Service Station. I have observed it in front of Colomial Store
and the Winn-Dixie Store.
Q When was that?
A It was either on a Friday or a Saturday. Well, I
believe at the Winn-Dixie Store it was on a Friday and a Saturday
or part of a period on Saturday, and at the Colonial Store I think
it was on a Friday, one day.
Q Was that previous to the 11th day of August, 1965?
A Yes, sir.
Q Well, do you know the date?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know how long it was before the 11th of
August, 1965? Approximately how long before August 11th, 1965?
A In the neighborhood of two and a half weeks, I
would say.
Q What did you observe as far as picketing at the
Colonial Store is soncerned?
A At the Colonial Stores, the parking lot at Colonial
Stores is on the west side of the store. There is a slight insert
where cars can pull up in front of the store that the pickets were
picking on the side walk in front of the Colonial Stores.
Q How many pickets did you observe?
A The most I observed, and that was for a very brief
period of time, there was six and for a short period of time there
125
were nine or twn, and if I am not mistaken either Sergeant Harden
or Sergeant Daniels advised them that they had been restricted
to six pickets and I think they cut down to six pickets.
THE COURT: Who restricted them, Judge?
THE WITNESS: According to the original permit --
THE COURT: (Interposing) They had a permit?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. In the original permit, the
restrictions in the permit was six pickets.
THE COURT: Well, how many did the permit give these
people to picket?
THE WITNESS: That was the same permit I referred to.
THE COURT: The same permit?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Six pickets?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
Q Did you continue to check those pickets during those
days?
A Yes, sir, I watched from an automobile that was
parked in the Piggly Wiggly lot which is right there across the
street. I walked over there and went in Colonial Stores and made
a purchase of groceries and came back outside and walked back to
the Piggly Wiggle and got in my automobile and left.
THE COURT: WelJ, who was doing the picketing?
THE WITNESS: The names, I don't know, sir.
126
THE COURT: I mean, what concern was picketing?
THE WITNESS: Colonial Stores.
THE COURT: I know, but what concern was ordering the
picketing?
THE WITNESS: Well ---
MR. HAYES: (Interposing) The same group, Judge.
THE COURT: That was the same group?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I will have to object to that
because Mr. Hayes is doing the testifying.
THE COURT: Well, I guess you are right.
THE WITNESS: The only ones that I could identify —
MR. HAYES: (Interposing) Well, I am going to prove it.
THE COURT: All right, you can prove it when it comes
up, but I will sustain the objection as it now stands.
THE WITNESS: The only one that I could identify would
be Max Carl Bright.
THE COURT: Who?
A Maxium Carl Wright, who is with SCOPE.
THE COURT: He is one of the witnesses in this case?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir
Q Did you see Reuben Gamble during that time you
observed this picketing at Colonial Stores?
A No.
127
Q You did not see him?
A No, sir.
Q Did you see - what's this white woman that you
described?
A DeNoter.
Q Did you see Max Carl Wright - or Rice?
A I did.
Q Were these pickets carrying signs?
A They were.
Q Was there anything on those signs that would
indicate who was doing the picketing?
A The signs at the various stores would have - some
had jointly "NAACP" and "SCOPE", Which stands for "Summer Community
on Political Education."
Q You saw that on the signs at Colonial Stores?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, did you see any signs at Winn-Dixie?
A Yes, sir
Q What was on those signs?
A The same initials. I am sure one had "SCLC", which
is "Southern Christian Leadership Conference."
Q Now, you have read all the pleadings in this case?
A I have.
Q Now, Judge Ward, were there any arrests made during
128
any of those days to your knowledge?
A There was an arrest of a local Dublin white boy
I think, at Winn-Dixie, or somewhere in that vicinity. I think he
tried to start some trouble and the police officers arrested him.
MR. MOORE: I move to strike that testimony because it
is not based upon the facts that he observed.
MR. HAYES: That's all right, we will prove it by another
wLtness.
THE COURT: All right, I will sustain the objection
to that.
Q To your knowledge, were there any otherr arrests
on those dates that you observed?
A None.
Q Judge Ward, on --Now, this order has already been
stipulated that he signed it and it has been identified -- are
you familiar with that?
A I am.
Q Will you state to the court the circumstances
surrounding that order? First, will you read the order into the
record?
MR. MOORE: We have stipulated ;that as a part of the
record. Perhaps he should identify it as being "Exhibit D, attached
to the petition"?
A The order that I hold here is Exhibit D, attached
to the plaintiff's petition, being civil action No. 611, and --
129
THE COURT: (Interposing) You said you would stipulate.
What was that?
MR. MOORE: Wel}.y, we will stipulate that order is a
part of the record.
THE COURT: All right.
Q Will you read that order into the record please?
(Reading) "Georgia, Laurens County. It being shown to
the court that a condition presently exist within the City of
Dublin, due to certain demonstrations and assemblies by large
numbers of persons, which tends to cause a tense and critical
situation, which could lead to violence and a serious breach of
the peach. If further appears that such crowds are congregating
in and around Glenwood Soda Shop, Glenwood Avenue,Dublin,Georgia
and Thomas Recreation Center Glenwood Avenue, Dublin, Georgia.
Based on the foregoing and in an effort to quell any further
disturbances the Chief of Police, W. D. Jfasey, or his lawful
officers is authorized to close the above places and such other
places as he deems in the best interest of peace and harmony until
the further order of this court and under existing conditions
have changed. So ordered, this 12th day of August, 1965. Signed
Harold E.Ward, Judge Superior Court."
Q Will you state the circumstances surrounding the
granting of that order?
A Now, may I say this, there is a slight amendment to
130
that order. Attorney Jackson stated to me , and I think in your
presence, that this Thomas Recreation Center also was the place
wherein the SCOPE Headquarters were located. Well, I don't know
whether he said NAACP or SCOPE, but one of them and he said that
he didn't feel that the order applied to that portion of the
building. I told him that in the interest of trying to get some
thing settled down that as far as I was concerned it applied to
the entire building and to such other places as the Chief of Police
thought proper to close in the interest of trying to have harmony
in our community. Mr. Jackson stated that he still didn't think
it covered that building, so then I went back to the court house
and drew this short amendment, as follows: "Georgia Laurens
County. The above order is amended in the interest of clarification
to apply to the entire building and both of the referred to in
stances as these are the areas of congestion." Signed by myself.
Q Why did you issue that order, Judge?
A At his request. He wanted it amended for the
purpose of clarification.
Q Now, why did you issue the whole order?
A Chief Josey had come to me and described jito me
vhat had occurred and --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I am going to object to that,
Your Honor. That would be hearsay.
THE COURT: I don't know whether that would be hearsay
131
or not. He asked the question as to why he did it. Well, he is
saying what the Chief told him.
MR. HAYES: May I be heard on that?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
MR. HAYES: There is an exception to hearsay evidence
if it is to ascertain motive and explain conduct and so forth.
The attorney brought out on direct examination of this officer
here about that order.
THE COURT: Well, I think the safe thing to do is to
put Josey back on the stand. I just don't want to get any error
in this record.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir. O.K., Judge.
THE COURT: It may ljnt be but I certain^ want to keep
it out, if it is not relevant.
MR. HAYES: I imagine he will bring it out on cross
examination anyway.
THE COURT: Well, if he doesn't Josey is here.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir. Y0ur witness.
THE COURT: Well, it is now 5:00 o'clock and I usually
take out at 5:00 unless there is some reason for dot doing it.
When you try to rush a case is when you get in trouble. I usually
take out at 5:00 o'clock.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I don't know whether he is ;going
to volunteer to come back tomorrow or not*
132
MR. HAYES: He is ;going to be here until the case is
over.
THE COURT: Well, it is 5:00 o'clock, unless you have
some other reason. I know the Judge wellenough that he is going
to be here tomorrow as a witness. You will be here tomorrow, won't
you, Judge?
THE WITNESS: I will be here, Judge.
MR. MOORE: I just thought we could conclude with this
witness in a short time.
THE COURT: Well, I had rather not do it this afternoon.
He will be back in the morning. When you try to hurry a law case
you run into trouble. He will be back here tomorrow. It is 5:00
o'clock, and you will also take some little time with him, I imagine
because he has testified some little while. So, I am going to
postpone it until 10:00 o'clock tomorrow morning.
MR. HAYES: Judge, may I make a request?
THE COURT: Certainly.
MR. HAYES: Judge Wilkes here, you can look at him and
tell he is suffering --
THE COURT: (Interposing) Well, don't ever tell a man
that he looks bad.
MR. HAYES: I don't mean he looks bad.
THE COURT: Well, you think he ought not to come back
in the morning. I told him today, when he left the witness stand,
that I would look after him if he was not physically able to come
133
tomorrow.
MR. HAYES: Well, I would like to ask that he be excused.
THE COURT: If you have any other questions to ask this
gentlemen, Judge Wilkes, you can ask him now.
MR. MOORE: I have no further questions for Judge
Wilkes.
THE COURT: What about you?
MR. HAYES: No, sir.
THE COURT: Well, it is agreeable with both sides that
he need not come back tomorrow. All right, that's fine.
THE MARSHAL: Take a recess until 10:00 o'clock tomorrow
morning.
(NOTE: Accordingly the proceedings were then recessed
from 5:00 o'clock, P. M., Wednesday, August 25th, 1965, until
10:00 o'clock, A. M. Thursday August 26th, 1965, at which time
the proceedings were resumed as follows on the next page.)
134
10:00 o'clock Thursday Morning, August 26th, 1965.
THE COURT: All right, you may proceed.
THE MARSHAL: Any witnesses in the court room, please
go on the outside.
THE COURT: Now, you all have got it straight now. Any
witness in the court room must get out. I don't want to hold anybody
in contempt, but any witness that is a witness in this case must
go on the outside and remain out of this court room. Now, you
all have got it straight, all witnesses must go out, if you don't
I will hold you in contempt. All right, lets proceed.
MR. MOORE: They are all either plaintiffs or defendants
in the removal petition.
THE COURT: What is that? I donjt understand you.
I don't understand what you mean. All the people in court, you
say, are either plaintiffs or defendants, is that right?
MR. MOORE: All right, then they should stay in in the
court room, but no witnesses can stay in the court room.
THE WITNESS: (Harold E.Ward) Your Honor, I would like
to clarify one thing. I testified that I observed certain things
at the City Hall on July 25th, and upon recollection the date was
actually August 1st.
THE COURT: What is that now?
limy. WITNESS: On yesterday I testified that I had observed
certain picketing in front of the City Hall on Sunday,July 25th,
135
when the correct date was Sunday, August 1st.
THE COURT: All right, you may# make that correction.
All right, you may proceed.
......... -......... CROSS EXAMINATION..................... .
By Mr. Moore:
Q You mean that the testimony that you gave respecting
July 25th, 1965, is incoorect?
A Not incorrect as to the testimony but incorrect
as to the date.
Q You are certain as to that now?
A That's correct.
Q What caused you to change your testimony?
A Because I made a mistake.
Q How did you recognize that mistake?
A Because I realized that July 25th was the day
that Maxium Rice had his incident at the City Hall and I was not
present at that time, but I was present the following Sunday and
by looking at a calendar, which I have in front of me, I find that
the following Sunday was August 1st.
Q The following Sunday was August 1st?
A That's correct.
Q It is your testimony that there were demonstrations
in the City of Dublin on August 1st, 1965?
136
A That is correct, only at the City Hall.
Q Y^u don't have any recollection of anything that
happened on July 25th, 1965?
A No, I was out of town that jday.
Q Judge Ward, are you a member of the First Baptist
Church?
A No.
Q Any of your relatives?
A No. I have only one relative in Lauresns County -
No, I have no relatives in Laurens.County.
Q Were you present at the First Baptist Church on
July 25th?
A No, I was in Dillon, South Carolina.
Q Were you present at the First Baptist Church on
August 1st?
A No, I was across the street from the First Baptist
Church.
Q
A
Q
at the First
A
Q
A
You were across the street?
Yes.
Did you make any statement respecting any incidents
Baptist Church on August 1st?
Did I make any statement?
Yes, sir?
To what are you referring?
137
Q Did you make any statements to news reporters?
A No, sir.
Q Were you photographed standing in front of the
First Baptist Church?
A Not to my knowledge. Now, I understand that
photographs were made.
Q But you have no knowledge as to whether you were
photographed?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know Mr. Jones?
A I know saveral Mr. Joneses?
Q Bo you know Mr.Wilbur S. Jones?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know, of your own knowledge, whether he
is a member of the First Baptist Church?
A He is.
Q Did you see him on August 1st, 1965?
A I don't believe so.
Q YOu didn't see him on August 1st, 1965?
A No, sir, I don't believe I saw him. I saw Dr.
Stanley R. Hahn, who is the Pastor of the First Baptist Church.
Q Bow long have you been Judge of the Superior Court?
A Since December 28th, 1960.
Q Is that an elective position?
A Yes.
Q Had you been judge prior to that time?
A No.
Q This was your first time and you were elected?
A Yes.
Q I believe your testimony yesterday was ;that the
Dublin Judicial Circuit was comprised of at least three counties?
A Four counties.
Q Would you name those counties again, please?
A Laurens, Johnson, Treutlin and Twiggs.
Q Lauresn, Johnson and - is it Troup?
A Treutlin.
q What are the regular coart sessions in those
counties?
A Well, we generally stay in session the year around.
The regular sessions in Laurens are the Fourth Mondays in January,
April, July and October, and in Johaeon County the regular sessions
are the Third Monday in March, June, September and December, with
the Uune and December Terms being non-grand jury sessions, and in
Treutlin the regular terms are February and August, and in Twiggs
the regular sessions are January, April, July and October.
Q When in July does it meet in Treutlin?
A It doesn't meet in Treutlin in July.
Q Where arethe sessions held? ^
A The session starts on the Secnnd Monday in July
in Twiggs County, on the Fourth Monday in July in Laurens County.
138
139
Q What about the sessions in August?
A The Third Monday in August in Treutlin.
Q Do you have a heavy case load in that county?
A Laurens County would take care of 75 per cent of
the case load. In the past four and a half years, in Laurens
County, we have disposed of criminal and civil about 2300 cases.
Q And are you the only Judge in that Circuit?
A Yes, all the Superior Court judge.
Q I believe that you testified that on August 12th,
I believe it was, did enter an order closing a certain establishment
or establishments in the City of Dublin, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And those establishments were the ones listed in
the order?
A There are two establishments listed in the order,
and I think you will recall when I read the order "and such other
places as the Chief of Police might deem proper."
Q It was all left up solely to the discretion of the
Chief of Police?
A Yes, sir.
Q As to what other places should be closed?
A That is correct.
Q You didn't specify any other place?
A No, that's correct.
Q As a matter of fact, you did not conduct a hearing
140
prior to issuing that order, did you?
A No, I didn’t.
Q Aĵ d you didn't give notice to any of the establish
ments concerning that order?
A No, but I talked to all of them afterwards.
Q But not before that.not before the order was issued?
A That's correct.
Q Now, one of those places was Thomas Recreation
Center, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q Do you know whether that is operated by Negroes?
A Operated by Henry Thomas, I mean Emory Thomas.
Q Emory Thomas?
A Yes.
Q Is he a Negro?
A Yes.
Q And the Glenwood Soda Shop, is that operated by
Negroes?
A Yes, operated by Negroes. Now, the beer portion
of the building in which the Glenwood Soda Shop is operated is
owned by whites.
Q But it is operated by Negroes?
A That's right, and owed by whites.
Q Mrs. Todd's Service Station is in that area?
141
A That's correct.
MR. MOORE: Will you marked this, please, as Plaintiff's
Exhibit "P-4"? (NOTE: And same was so marked)
Q Judge Ward, { show you Defendant's, or rather
Plaintiff's Exhibit "P-4", and I ask you if you can identify it?
A That would be a true picture of the Glenwood Soda
shop, Glenwood Avenue, Warbash, Hudson Street, Gray Street, the
Sinclair Station, which is known as Todd's Service Station the
South Side Service Station, and various houses, a service station,
and was at one time an old funeral parlor there, and Thomas Recre
ation Center, andthen in the rear you have the NAACP and the Scope
office. I could not testify that that was the Naacp or the Scope
office except from what I was told by one of your fellow counsel.
Q Judge Ward, would Plaintiff's Exhibit P-4 be a true
representation of the street lay out and the establishments on
Glenwood Avenue?
A It would, yes. When I say it would be a true re
presentation of the locations, now, as to your scale I wouldn't
say it would be true.
MR. MOORE: We offer this at this time as Plaintiff's
Exhibit No. 4.
THE COURT: All right, hand it to the Court reporter.
MR. HAYES: It is not accurate as to scale, but is just
a general diagram as to that area, is that right?
142
MR, MOORE: That's correct.
MR. HAYES: We have no objections.
THE COURT: All right, it is admitted without objection.
Q Now, you/ have personal knowledge, you have testi
fied about that, that the beer parlor, which is off to the side of
the Glenwood Soda Shop, is owned and operated by white persons,
is that right?
A Yes, because the owner called me the following
morning.
Q Following August 11th, or August 12th?
A Following August 12th, because he called me on
the morning of August 13th, about 6:00 o'clock.
Q Your order at the time it was written did not
appla to the beer parlor did it?
A Yes, sir,it applied to both buildings. As I stated
yesterday, I amended the order at the request of Attorney Jackson
to include the entire building, of both buildings.
Q Whereas, originally issued it was not?
A It was intended to include the entire building
of both buildings.
Q Now, your order did not cover the Todd Service
Station, did it?
A Not specifically by name, but Todd's Service Station
was closed at approximately 7:30 on that same evening, and the
order was issued at approximately 6:00 o'clock.
143
Q But the order itself did not cover it?
A Not by name.
Q You do not have any personal knowledge as to the
fects inducing the closing of the Todd Service Station?
A No.
Q I believe your testimony was that there was a
sizeable group of white persons gathered at the station when you
were there about 6:00 o'clock on the evening of August 11th, is
that correct?
A That's correct. I believe I stated there were 12
or 15 persons there.
Q And your testimony was that these white people
were milling around by the station, is that correct?
A They did sot appear to be trading there. They
appeared to be milling around the station, yes.
Q Did you hear them make any remarks?
A No, I did not hear any remarks.
Q tfere you on the same side of the street as the
Service Station?
A As I went by I was on the opposite side. As 1 came
back I was on the same side.
Q In other words, you didn't actually stop at the
station, or in the area, you just drove through?
A I stopped on the opposite side, and I believe
Sergeant Hattaway, Sergeant Donald Hattaway, who is one of Dublin"s
144
23 volunteer policemen, was on duty at that time.
Q Now, what is the status of a volunteer policeman?
A My understanding of it is that some six or eight
months ago the City of Dublin, through Chief Josey, organized
a volunteer policemen, who are citizens of Dublin and who have
taken a training course in police work and serve on a volunteer
basis when needed.
THE COURT: You say they did take training?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
Q From whom did they take their training?
A That, I do not know.
Q Now, have you ever seen volunteers?
A Yes, sir.
Q How many negroes are among these volunteers?
A No Negroes among the volunteer policemen. There
are two Negroes employed by the City of Dublin as police officers.
Q Yes, sir, I understand that, but there are no
Negroes as volunteer policemen, is that right?
I
A That's correct.
Q Are the volunteer policemen selected?
A That, I don't know. I know that some work at the
woolen mill, some at the VA Hospital and various other fields of
employment, but as to how they are selected I couldn't testify.
Q Do you know whether or not any investigations of
145
their back grounds and associations were made prior to the time
of their acceptance as volunteer policemen?
A No, sir, I don't.
Q Are these volunteer policemen provided arms?
A They are provided full uniforms, weapons - the
entire uniforms that the regular police officers have and they
are likewise issued identification certificates or cards.
Q Is that by Chief Josey?
A By Chief Josey, yes, sir.
Q What type of uniforms do the policemen wear?
A At the present they are wearing blue denim pants
and a lighter blue shirt, with a holster, of course, gun and badge
aid caps.
Q Helmets?
A On occasions. They are furnished but the don't
wear them on regular occasions, but on some occasions they do
wear them.
Q Now, this equipment is paid for by the City of
Dublin?
A That, I don't know. Now, we are speaking about the
volunteer policement
Q Volunteer policemen?
A That, I don't know
Q Do you know whether or not they use motor vehicles?
A Yes, they do.
146
q Do you know who provides the motor vehicles?
A The City of Dublin.
Q Are tjfiey marked or unmarked?
A Marked.
Q So, they are volunteers with the same status as
the regular policemen?
A That's right. Well, I presume they have the same
status. I merely know they issue cards, giving them the authority
of police officers.
Q They are not sworn in?
A Yes, I swore them in myself.
Q You swore them in yourself?
A Yes, in a ceremonyy.
Q Under what authority?
A Under the authority I administer the oath to any
person.
Q Is this an oath required by the laws of Dublin and
the laws of Georgia?
A I administered the same oath to them that is ad
ministered to regular police officers with the exception that
the word "auxiliary" was inserted in the oath and it was signed
by each of the officers. It was administered in the Laurens
Superior Court Room.
Q Do you have any personal knowledge as to how the
regular police officers are employed?
A The regular policemen?
Q Yes, sir?
A I can tell you what I understand the policy to
be,
Q What is that policy?
A An investigation is made into their back ground,
their physical characteristics and they capability to perform
police work. I have known of men being rejected from the City
Police Force because of their back ground and their inability to
carry out the work.
Q Do you know who passes on whether or not a policeman
is hired?
A We operate under a City Managef form of Government,
and the City Manager selects the Chief of Police, and the Chief
of Police selects his officers, subject to the approval of the
City Manager.
Q Subject to the City Manager?
A I am sure that would be true.
Q Now, these volunteer policemen are to be used in
racial incidents, isn't that right?
A No, they were working in Dublin long before any
racial incidents occurred.
Q Had they been called to actually serve as policemen
prior to any demonstrations?
A Yes, many times.
Q Pardon me?
A Many times.
Q Do you have personal knowledge of those instances?
A Well, I can't recall dates. I have been to the
police station. I have seen one of the volunteer policeman who
is in a wheel chair and he is assigned to the radio, he operates
the radio. I have seen others in the streets, walking the streets,
and in the automobiles. At the times I have seen them they were
generally in the company of a regularly employed police officer.
Q A sort of a buddy system?
A If you want to call it that, yes, sir.
Q All of these volunteers, twenty three in number,
are white persons?
A That is correct.
Q Now, August 11th, 1965, was rather a hot day,
wasn't it?
A It has been pretty hot lately.
Q The temperature was in the upper nineties, wasn't it?
A I don't knot, but I would say that it was hot.
I wouldn't know about up in the nineties.
Q It was an extremely hot day, wasn't it?
A I was in an air-conditioned courthouse and jail.
Q But you were also out on the streets some?
148
A Part of the time.
149
Q Now, when you went down Glenwood Avenue, you weren't
going out there to see what was going on, were you?
A Yes, I was.
Q I thought your testimony was that you were going
to take your maid home?
A No. I said that I go out there frequently to take
my maid home. I went out there purposely to keep myself advised
as to what the situation was.
Q Qidn't you consider that irregular?
trying to work for the best interest of the people of Dublin and
Laurens County, Negro and Jhite.
Court Judge to be in a position where your impartiality is not
affected?
to keep, from there being any breach of the peace by whites or
Negroes.
gations of the Judge of the Superior Court. I think that is
entirely irrelevant.
A No, I don't consider anything irregular when I am
Q Well, don't you have an obligation as a Superior
A I have an obligation to the people to keep, or try
Q Now, don't you obligations as Judge --
THE COURT: (Interposing) Lets don't go into the obli-
MR. MOORE: I think it is important, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I don't agree with you. I am ruling it out.
MR. MOORE: We except to the ruling, Your Honor.
150
Q Now, under what authority did you hold a commitment
hearing on August 12th?
A Under the authority that the courts have held that
if any person is in jail they are entitled to a hearing as quickly
as possible.
Q Even on a Recorder's Court charge?
A I think anything that would carry any penalty
pnishment, which our charter provides up to 90 days, would entitle
that person to a quick hearing. Now, if a person objects to a
commitment hearing, Mr. Moore, I would not want to give them on,
but I feel that anybody would be entitled to one whether they
be a Negro or a white person.
Q Now, the Recorder's Court could have been convened
as quickly as a commitment hearing, could it not?
A That's correct, but they were in the Laurens
County# jail.
Q They remained in the Laurens County jail?
A That's correct, until I signed an order releasing
all of the 32 without bond, and the other parties remaining in
jail were likewise released without bond.
Q That was on a Friday?
A That was on Friday.
Q Many of these people had been arrested on Wednesday
night?
A That's correct.
152
Q You didn't make any independent investigation into
he circumstances and financial conditions of any of these people
as to what would be an adequate amount of bond, did you?
A No, I didn't.
Q Now, Judge Ward, many of these people who were in
jaij., you knew?
A Oh, yes.
Q Because they lived there in the community?
A Yes, sir. In fact, I had one gentleman that had
two neices that vgere arrested, and he came to me to see me about
getting them out of jail on bond, and he said he went down and
talked to them and they said they didn't want to get out. That
was Virgil Butler.
Q You remember Attorney Jackson appearing before
you?
A Yes, on Thurdday afternoon August 13th.
Q Do you remember Attorney Jackson requesting that
you reduce the amount of bond?
A I remember that he requested that I release the
juveniles without bond.
Q And you remember you having refused to do so at
that time?
A I stated that a few moments ago.
Q You subsequently changed your mind, is that correct?
153
A That's correct.
Q And that was the following day?
A Yes. Do you want toknow why I changed my mind?
Q I was going to ask you. What induced you to change
your position?
A Because I felt like that after they had remained
in jail for the length of time they had that they had no intention
of making bond, that they merely wanted to remain in jail until
the Recorder's Court met on the following Monday, and I would take
the juveniles, because as Judge of fhe Superior Court I am Judge
of the Juvenile Court, that I would take it upon myself to release
the juveniles, and the others being city cases and which would
ultimately be tried by the City, that I would not take the re
sponsibility of releasing them, subsequently Chief Josey and
Mr. Lane did release them without bond the same day.
Q You did not investigate these people after the
commitment hearing, did you?
A I am not an investigating officer.
Q You didn't make any effort to ascertain why they
vere staying in jail, did you?
A Except what the uncle of two of them told me.
Q And that was all?
A And then I turned the names - I had Mr.Watson to
investigate the court records as to the 30 juveniles, I had Mr.
James Norris, who is our Circuit Court Service Juvenile Worker,
154
to investigate
back grounds.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
time?
A
Q
not been done,
A
Q
A
Q
had there not?
A
Q
bond?
or he is now investigating all of these family
What did he do?
What did he do?
Yes, sir?
I said that he is now doing that.
Oh. He is in the process of doing that at this
Yes.
But at the time you changed your mind, this had
had it?
That's right.
You never reduced the bonds, did you?
No. I just let them out without bond.
And a request had been made to reduce the bond,
No, there had not.
Attorney Jackson did not request you to reduce the
A No. I told you that he requested that the juveniles
be released without bond. He made no request for reduction of
bond for the others.
Q I believe yesterday, when you testified, you
testified that a Doctor, or some one, went to the police station
on Sunday, is that correct?
A Dr. Joel Radney.
Q Who?
A Dr. Joel Radney.
Q You observed him walk across the lawn, is that
correct?
A That's correct.
Q You did not see him attempt to walk through the
picket line, did you?
A No.
Q You don't know why he walked across the picket
line, do you?
A Why he walked across it?
Q That's right?
A I didn't penetrate his thoughts.
Q Then your testimony yesterday was just a conclusion
on what you imagined his actions and motive was?
A From the physical evidence that I saw.
Q But no one physically tried to stop him from going
into the city hall, did they?
A Oh, no.
Q Now, this was on a Sunday, is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q What offices are open in the City Hall on Sunday?
A The only office, to my knowledge, that would be
open, would be the Police Department.
156
Q And the City Hall, with the exception of the Police
Department, is closed on Sunday, is that right?
A Well, unless some of the officials are there doing
same extra work, but I waild say for all practical purposes they
are closed.
Q As a matter of fact, most of the businesses in that
area are closed on Sunday, are they not?
A Well, I don't consider church business, but the
church was open that day.
Q Pardon me?
A The churches were open that day.
Q But the other businesses, the postoffice --
A (Interposing) Churches, plural.
q And the postoffices were closed?
A That's right.
Q And other businesses?
A The postoffice is about three blocks away.
Q And your testimony is that the pickets were across
the street from £he Church on the CityVl Hall side of the street?
A That's correct.
THE COURT: Anything else.
Q Other than Dr.Radney-----
THE COURT: (Interposing) You didn't answer my question.
Any other questions? You didn't hear me, I don't think. Any other
questions?
157
MR. MOORE: Just one or two more questions.
THE COURT: All right.
Q Other than Dr.Radney, you saw no one else go to
the City Hall?
A Oh, yes. I saw numerous people.
Q Were they police officers?
A Police officers and others too. I saw the FBI
Agents and certain unknown civilians to me, and police officers.
Q The City Hall was accessible to those who wanted
to enter?
A Oh, yes.
MR. MOORE: The witness is with you.
THE COURT: All right, you may go down. Any questions?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HAYES:
Q What FBI Agent did you see on that date?
A I saw FBI Agent Applegate, and I believe I saw
FBI Agent Sipple and two that were unknown to me.
Q Where did you see Agent Applegate?
A In front of the City Hall and inside the Cith
Hall.
158
Q A$d the date was what?
A August 1st.
Q Of what year?
A 1965.
Q Judge Ward, with reference to this commitment the
attorney questioned you about concerning these individuals arrested
on the 13th of August, he asked under what provision of law you
held that commitment hearing, or a question to that effect; do
you remember the discussion that took place between myself, as
City Attorney, and Thomas Jackson in the presence of the court
concerning this particular nommitment hearing held on that date?
A Was that the discussion in the court room?
Q Yes?
A Yes, I remember that.
Q Will you relate what that was to the court?
A I stated for the record that it was irregular for
me, as Superior Court Judge, to hold a preliminary hearing or
commitment hearing and --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I object, Your Honor. He
said ;that he stated for the record and the record has been
introduced here, and the record would be the highest and best
evidence of it.
MR. HAYES: Your Honor, this is a different proceeding.
We had two commitment hearings. This is a different proceeding
from the one that he testified to yesterday. This is the one that
159
Moore was questioning him on today.
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, this is the hearing that took
place in the afternoon.
MR. HAYES: Just a minute, Judge. The commitment hearing
that he was questioned about was held on the 12th day of August,
1965, in which you were questioning him about to the effect,wasn't
it irregular for him to hold a commitment hearing for Recorder's
Court cases.
THE COURT: He said it was a different occasion.
Q Was Tom Jackson, attorney for the defendants,
p resent at that commitment hearing?
A Yes, he was.
Q Will you state what took place?
A I stated that - or stated to you and to Mr. Jackson
that it was irregular for me, as Superior Court Judge, to hold a
commitment hearing on Recorder's Court cases, but that I felt that
these defendants were entitled to a hearing, and either be given
a hearing and if the evidence showed that they had violated any
ordinance they would have bean bound over. I stated that they
were entitled to a hearing or to have a bond set, and that I would
not conduct a hearing unless it was desired.
Q Was there any statement made by Tom Jackson at that
time?
A He said he had just known of cases and that he would
160
like sometime to discuss it with his clients and I recessed court
and gave him the opportunity to discuss it with his clients and
to make certain that he had all the prieacy I asked all the
officers and the attorneys and everyone to lea ve the court room
except Attorney Jackson and his clients.
Q And did he make 'any motions after that recess?
A After recess we came back into session and I again
asked Attorney Jackson what his desires were and he stated that
two of the parties of the 22 desired bond be set.
Q And did you set a bond?
A I set a bond.
Q In what amount?
A $200.00. And there were twelve juveniles which
he requested they be bound over to the Juvenile Court. I told
him that I would hold a hearing, if I am not mistaken, the follow
ing Wednesday, and that I would likewise hold a hearing - he wanted
a hearing on all of them except the two - that I would hold a
hearing on the others and I believe it was likewise on the follow
ing Wednesday for those who were not juveniles.
Q He asked that the hearing be continued?
A He said that he was not prepared to have a hearing
at that time and he wanted additional time and we discussed
several dates and I think we finally came up with the date of
the following Wednesday.
Q Do you know, of youj own knowledge, how long after
161
the arrest of those individuals took place was this commitment
hearing held?
A Of those 22 that were arrested on the afternoon of
the 12th, the hearing was held not more than 45 minutes after
the arrest.
Q And the purpose of that —
A (Interposing) I think the arrest was made at
approximately 4:00 o'clock and the hearing was approximately
5:00 o'clock.
Q Now, you were asked about these volunteer police
men and if there were any Negroes on the Voluneer Police Force,
and I believe you answered - what did you answer? W^at was your
answer to that?
A I think I answered no. I know of none.
Q Do you know whether or not any Negroes have volunteer
-ed for that place?
A I know of none.
Q Judge Ward, I believe the order that he questioned
you about gave Chief Josey the authority to close these places,
gave him the authority to close all places that he saw necessary
to present violence, is that not in the order? Do you have the
order before you?
A Yes.
Q You were questioned by the attorney about why
Todd's Service Station, is there anything in that order to cover
Todd's Service Station or any other places?
A Not specifically by name, but it is in the other
"and such other places as he deems in the interest of peace and
harmony."
Q Now, do you know the percentage of Negroes regis
tered to vote in Laurens County, Georgia?
A 62.3 of the eligible Negro population is registered
t o vote.
Q Have you ever had any complaints - Strike that -
Can you tell this Court the progress that has been made between
the white, Caucasian Race, and the colored race in Laurens County?
MR. MOORE: I object to that.
THE COURT: I think the objection is good. I don't see
any relevancy of that.
MR. HAYES: Judge, may I be heard on that?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. HAYES: The reason I am bringing this out is that
the attorney has asked him, in my opinion, has asked him questions
about no Negro volunteers on this police force, he has made a
point of that, and he has made the point that only Negro places
were closed by this order and, in my opinion, the point was made
to show discrimination against the Negroes.
THE COURT: Jell, I don't think that is relevant.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir. That's all.
THE COURT: I haven't objected to anything yet. There
are a lot of things that are irrelevant in this case.
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir, I understand,
THE COURT: But I wanted to give you all a hearing, so
I am doing it.
163
..... RECROSS EXAMINATION .......................
BY MR. MOORE:
Q Judge Ward, at this commitment hearing on the
afternoon of August 12th, you admit that was an irregular pro
ceeding, is that correct/
A I will admit that I don't usually hold them, yes.
Q Then it is irregular to do so?
A
not improper.
I say, that I don't normally hold them, but it is
Q This is your first j experience in holdiig such
hearings, isn't it?
A No, I have bound people over to the Recorder's
Court in the past.
Q When?
A Well, listen, I have so many cases, I can't recall
individual cases. I have bound them over to the City Court of
Dublin and I have bound them over to the Recorder's court, depending
on what the offense might be.
164
Q The City Court of Dublin is a statutory court or
a grand jury court, is it not?
A It is not a grand jury court.
Q It is established by the grand jury, isn't it?
A No.
Q Established by the Constitution?
A No.
Q Established by statute?
A That's right.
Q The Recorder;? Court is established by an Ordinance,
isn't it?
A By Charter.
Q And you have the function to bind misdemeanors
over to the City Court?
A That's correct. No, no.
Q Well, does the City Court have the function of
binding misdemeanors and felonies over to the Superior Court
in which you sit?
A Superior Court can try either misdemeanors or
felonies.
Q And the City Court would normally hold a commit-
cent hearing, wouldn't it?
A No.
Q It wouldn't?
165
A J. P's can hold commitment hearings, Superior
Court Judges can hold commitment hearings, Judge of the City
Court can hold commitment hearings and Recorder's Court can hold
commitment hearings, and the Mayor of the City of Dublin and the
Mayor Protem, when they are Kitting as Recorder can hold commit
ment hearings.
Q The usual procedure is for the inferior courts
to h<kld commitment hearings and not for the superior court,
over which you preside, to hold commitment hearings?
A Well, I would say, In Laurens County, I hold
more commitment hearings than the J.P's and the REcorders and
the City Court of Dublin combined.
Q At this commitment hearing you took no evidence,
did you?
A No, because they didn't want a hearing.
Q You took no evidence on the question of a bond?
A No, the bond is in the discretion of the presiding
magistrate.
Q And you exercised that discretion to set the bond
in the same amoaunt as the Chief of Police had set?
A That's correct.
Q Now, I believe you were asked whether or not any
Negroes had volunteered for the auxiliary police and you answered
no?
A No. I said not to my knowledge.
A Asking for volunteers?
Q Yes, sir?
A Not to my knowledge, but the public does know that
they are volunteers.
Q But no public notice was given to anyone as far
as you know?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q As a matter of fact, Chief Josey does most of
the requesting, doesn't he?
A That,I couldn't answer.
Q So you don't have any pessonal knowledge whether
any Negroes have ever been asked to volunteer for the Auxiliary
Police Force?
A I have none.
Q How recently has it been since you have had Negroes
on the Pilice Force?
A I would think they were hired about March of this
year, and prior to that I swore in two Negro deputy sheriffs.
Q When was that?
A Probably in January or early February of this
year.
Q So to the best of your knowledge and information
there has been no Negroes who had served either on the police
Q No public notice is given for volunteers,is there?
force or as deputy sheriff until 1965?
167
A The By-racial Committee, or Human Relations
Committee, had requested the employment of Negro policemen and
I think it went for a period of two or three months in investi
gating to make ;certain that they got qualified policemen and
two were hired. Prior to that Sheriff Bussell and I discussed
it as to Negro deputy sheriffs and we swore in two Negro deputy
sheriffs.
Q That was in this year of 1965?
A Yes, all in 1965. Now, this registration drive
with SCOPE began on July 1st, but it was several months prior
to the beginning of that.
Q How far is Todd's Service Station from down town
Dublin?
A I would say, from the court house, I would seven
or eight blocks, roughly, or three ouarters of a mile.
Q And that is in the Negro community?
A Yes.
Q Judge Ward, why did you not close Todd's Service
Station?
A Why did I not?
Q That's right?
A I was not requested to. The crowds, except for the
pickets, had I closed Todd Service Station then possibly it would
have been construed that I was not allowing the pickets to picket.
168
Q It might be construed that you were not allowing
Mrs. Todd to continue to operate her business too?
A We discussed that, and I told Chief Josey that in
lte event any difficulty arose to close anything around there. You
seem, apparently, to question either my authority or the wisdom of
it, now, I think this --
MR. MOORE: Judge, I don't think that is responsive
to the question.
THE WITNESS: Your Honey, may I be allowed to explain?
THE COURT: Yes, you can, go ahead.
THE WITNESS: I think this, that any judge of any court
has a responsibility to see that all of the citizens are treated
equally whether it is required by an Ex Parte order or otherwise.
You will recall the other day, it was in the paper, that a child
was run over in Fort Deposit, Alabama --
MR. MOBRE: Your Honor --
THE COURT: (Interposing) I do think that is getting
a little out of line, but you can go ahead and tell anything
affecting you, Judge.
THE WITNESS: Well, I think in the interest of holding
down any possible violence when you have got two, three and four
hundred people milling around in a half a block area that a judge
has to use his discretion and play things by ear.
Q Well, Judge, at the time you entered the order,
there was no picketing taking place?
169
A At the time I entered the order?
Q Yes?
A I wasn't out there. No, I didn't go out to see if
there were. I know that it stopped the next day.
Q You entered the order on the 12th, late in the
afternoon on August 12th, didn't you?
A Yes, there was picketing taking place, because I
went out there again on that afternoon and I talked with Attorney
Jackson.
Q You went out to the Glenwood area?
A That's right.
Q And talked to Attorney Jackson?
A Yes, sir.
Q What time were you out there?
A Roughtly, about six o'clock.
Q Are you testifying that there was picketing at
6:00 o'clock on the 12th?
A I will say there were large crowds congregating
because when Attorney Jackson came across the street there were
some five or six with him and quite a number of people in the
general area.
Q Now, you are sure you were there on the 12th?
A The day the order was signed.
Q Was that the same day that you were driving
through?
170
A No, that was the second day. I have at the
bottom of the order "Amended at the request of Attorney Tomas
Jackson so as to include the entire building at approximately
6:00 P. M.", August 12th."
THE COURT: Anything else?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir.
Q Now, it is your testimony that the people who had
gathered were on thejother side of the street opposite the station,
is that correct?
A Both sides, but primarily the other side.
Q The Negro people were on the opposite side of
the street at the Glenwood Soda Fount, is that correct?
A And at Thomas' Recreation Center.
Q And at Thomas Recreation Center?
A And at the houses in the general area.
Q And the white people who had cmme out and were
milling around the area, they were in the service station, weren't
they?
A That was what I testified to.
Q And the pickets were just walking up the street
by themselves?
A That's correct.
THE COURT: Anything else?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir.
171
THE COURT: Well, confine yourself to the relevancy
of the case. I haven't objected to anything, but you have been
r ambling.
Q Now, you neeer thought it was important to close
the service station?
THE COURT: I think you have asked him that, have you
not?
THE WITNESS: I think I told you that I told the Chief
to close the filling station, if he thought it was proper, and
the service station did close.
Q But it was not included in your order?
A It was not included by name.
Q And that was where the difficulty was out there
in the area, wasn't it?
A That was where the picketing was.
MR. MOORE: That's all.
THE COURT: All right, you may go down. Now, listen,
lets confine the case to relevant testimony. What you all haee
been doing this morning, I don't see any relevancy. I have been
letting you all go along, and if I have got to call a halt I
just as well do it. I certainly want both sides to get in all
of their evidence, but I donti want to keep going like it has been
going this morning. I certainly want to give both sides a fair
trial but there certainly has been a lot of rambling by both dides.
All right.
172
WILLIAM D. JOSEY. SWORN FOR THE DEFENDANTS, TESTIFIED.
ON DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HAYES:
Q I believe you were sworn yesterday, were you not?
A I was.
Q State your name?
A William D. Josey.
Q What do you presently do?
A I am Chief of Police of the City of Dublin.
Q How long have you been so employed?
A Since March of 1964.
Q Would you state to the Court ---
THE COURT: (Interposing) Excuse me just one minute.
You have cleeed, haee you not, and this is his witness?
MR. MOORE: We rested.
THE COURT: I mean, you have rested?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And this is your witness?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir, Judge Ward was our first witness.
THE COURT: And he was put up as an adverse witness.
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir, he was called by them for the
purpose of cross examination .
THE COURT: All right, you may go ahead. I just wanted
to get it straight'
Q Will you describe to this court the organization
of the Dublin Police Force, the Dublin Police Department, on the
12th day of August, 1965?
A Exactly what do you mean by the organization?
Q How many police officers did you have on the
payroll of the City of Dublin that day?
police officers, including myself.
Q How long has these nineteen police officers, so
far as numbers are concerned, been employed?
A Well, it varies. When I was appointed Chief of
Police in Dublin there were fifteen officers, including the
Chief, and it has been increased in size this year up to nineteen
and on August 12th there were nineteen full time police officers.
A The entire police Department consist of nineteen
Q Does that nineteen include yourself?
A Yes, sir, it does.
Q Now, do you have officers in your police force?
A I do.
q State to the court the organization of the police
force with reference to
A There is one Chief and one Lidutenant.
Q Will you name the Lieutenant?
A Lt. Vernon Deloach is a plain clothes detective.
He handles all the investigations, burglaries, burglary complaints,
of any nature. He handles any investigation that concerns the
174
Police Department in detail. He holds the rank of Lieutenant.
There are four Sergeants, Shift Sergeants. One is assigned to
each shift. There are three regular shifts, eight and a quarter
hour shifts, with a Sergeant in charge, plus a relief Sergeant
and a relief officer that are deployed on various shifts primarily
when the relief Sergeant, or when the regular Sergeant is on
pass the Relief Sergeant is in charge of his shift, except on
the weekends or holidays and so forth, the relief Sergeants and
relief officers are usually assigned to the more active shifts.
responsibility of seeing that the laws and ordinances sf the
City of Dublin are enforced .
Q What are the duties of these Sergeants?
A They are to instruct the men and they hold a
Q What hours do you work as chief?
A No specific hours, but usually from 12 to 16 hours
a day.
Q How many hours are you on subject to call?
A Twenty four hours a day.
Q How man&y days a week?
A Seven days a week.
Q Now, will you give us,briefly, the available
iequipment furnished the Police Department in reference to
automobiles and so forth?
THE COURT: I think he went through that yesterday, did
he not? Didn't he testify they furnished them automobiles and
175
everything on yesterday?
MR. HAYES: Judge, may I say this?
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. HAYES: He testified to various sketchy points on
yesterday. Now, there maybe a little repetition in some of this
witness' testimony, but to substantiate our counter claim that
is allowed, and also to refute this injunction feature about
this individual not doing his job, it is extremely necessary
to my case on both the suit brought by them and the counter claim
that I examine this officer in detail.
THE COURT: Well, let me ask you a question right there
in connection with your counter suit filed, or what is your
c ounter suit for?
MR. HAYES: It is a counter claim against the plaintiffs
and other individuals of like kind which they have brought the
suit stating that they have come into the City of Dublin and
they/ are guilty of illegal picketing and violating the ordinances
of the City of Dublin with reference to blocking traffic and
sLde walks and egress and ingress of streets located within the
City of Dublin and they are picketing in such a manner.
THE COURT: Well, what are your damages?
MR. HAYES: That they are invading the constitutional
rights of these property owners that they are picketing so as to
not allow them to use their property and make a living.
THE COURT: That is a question of damages?
176
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir, and the fact that they are doing
it to such an access that it is taking the entire police force
of the City of Dublin to take care of this particular group and
leaves the rest of the city out or unguarded.
THE COURT: And your question of damages, as you have
stated, is caused by the picketing?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right, I just wanted to get it straight
in my mind.
MR. HAYES: Now, may I proceed?
THE COURT: I think under that, although it is straining
at nats, and like I say we are getting a lot of testimony in here
this moning that I don't think has anything to do with the real
issue, and I have not tried to raise any objections because I
want to give both sides a full hearing, and if you think it is
necessary, why, you go ahead.
MR. HAYES: I do, Judge, if not, I would not be putting
it in.
THE COURT: I don't think you would. All right, go
ahead.
Q Do you understand my question?
A You asked as to various police equipment that I
haee. I have three patrol cars, two solo motorcycles and one
scooter.
177
Q Now, do you have any gas equipment for mob violence
and so forth?
A I have, I believe, four canisters of tear gas
stored in the utility room at the police department.
Q Who has charge of that?
A I have sole charge of it and keys to the room.
Q Well, suppose a policeman wanted to use some of it
a n d--
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I object to that. That is
a speculative question as to what is supposed to be.
THE COURT: Well, you can leave the word suppose out.
Q In case a policeman wanted to use some gas --
MR. MOORE: I object to that,
THE COURT: I think that is admissible. I don't know
what is coming up in the testimony, but I read?! something in
the petition or answer about gas.
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: I think that is admissible.
Q All right, I will rephrase it just a little though.
THE COURT: Well, do that.
Q What is the procedure for using that gas?
MR. MOORE: I object to that, Your Honor, that it is a
leading question and this is his witness.
THE COURT: I don't think that is leading. I will let
him ask that.
178
THE WITNESS: The strict procedure in the Police De
partment, the Chief of Police issues the order as the use of
gas or anything of that nature that is to be used.
MR. MOORE: I move to strike the first part of his
answer as being a conclusion without evidence to support it.
THE COURT: The motion is overruled.
q Proceed?
A I am instructed that if any drastic measures are
to be used at anytime the Sergeant in charge will be consulted, if
the Chief of Police is not available.
q To your knowledge, during the past three months,
has any of that gas supply been used by the City Police Departments
A There has been none used in the past year or year
and a half, there has been none used.
q Chief Josey, in these schools that you attended,
which you testified to yesterday, can you be more specific as
to what - or rather who were the actual instructors in those
schools?
A They were qualified instructors from the Federal
Bureau of Investigation. They weee specialists tmm in their
field.
Q And what were the fields?
A Various fields on police administration, crowd and
riot control, public relations, records and so forth.
Q Now, I hand you an affidavit here that is dated
179
August 21st, 1965, which has been offered in evidence by the
petitioners, signed by one Maxium Carl Rice. Have you previously
read that affidavit?
A I have.
Q Are the facts alleged in that affidavit true?
A They are not.
Q Now, do you recall the time when Max Rice was
allegedly assaulted by Preston Horton?
A I do.
Q What date was that?
A That was on the 25th day of July, 1965.
Q What time?
A It was approximately 8:00 P. M., I would say.
Q Where did this occurrence take place?
A It occurred near the side walk on Bellevue Avenue,
or near the City Hall, between the City Hall and the side walk.
Q Did you see the incident?
A No. I on^y saw part of it. I heard the scuffle
and I turned and went to him and pulled this Preston Horton off
Max Rice.
Q Do you know what caused the scuffling?
A No, I don't know what caused it, actually. There
was quite a gathering in the general area. The situation was
becoming tense and explosive and I had instructed the Sergeant —
MR. MOORE: I object to that. There is no foundation for
the witness characterizing it as a tense and explosive situation.
THE COURT: Well, he is a police officer, Chief of
Police, and he was there and is testifying to what he saw.
MR. MOORE: But we don't have the benefit, Your Honor,
of what this witness didn't see --
THE COURT: (Interposing) Well, you will get him on
cross examination and you can ask him.
Q Tell the Court exactly what took place on that
occasion?
A I had instructed Sergeant Daniels to move the
people out of that immediate area because they were beginning
to gather in numbers and the situation was beginning to get out
of hand, so to speak. They were chanting back and forth and the
situation was becoming tense and as I say I instructed Sergeant
Daniels to move the white people out of the area and I, myself,
was talking to - there were about 10 or 11 Negro boys and girls,
and asking them and was in the procedure of moving them out of
the area.
Q When you say out of the area, where were they
located?
A They were located between the City Hall and
Bellevue,on the side walk of Bellevue Avenue.
Q Was that at the church?
A Between the City Hall and the church. The church
was/ndirectly across the street, the First Baptist Church.
181
Q Where were they when you first saw them?
A When I first saw them, they marched up to the
First Baptist Church.
Q Describe what happened?
A They apparently asked
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I object to what apparently
happened, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I sustain your motion on that.
Q Just tell what you know and what you saw?
A They conversed with the ushers or members of the
First Baptist Church in a group and I came up and I heard them
being told that they would not be admitted.
Q Now, you have nothing to do with the policies
of the church?
A Nothing whatsoever.
Q All right, go ahead.
A They were told by members of this church that they
could not be admitted and a discussion arose as to why, a very
brief discussion, and they began singing and chanting, and this
Carl Rice was in the crowd, and I moved them across the street
from the church. I believe church services started at 8:00 o’clock
and they were just beginning, and they stood across the street
and sang for some, I would say ten or fifteen minutes, chanting
and a crowd began to gather. White people were beginning to move
in fairly close to them and a crowd began to gather and I instructed
182
my men to move them out of the area, to clear the immediate
area, and was in the process of doing this when I heard the
commotion between this Carl Rice and this Preston Horton.
Q Where was Max Rice at that time?
A When I saw Max Rice at that time - well, I didn't
know who he was at that time, but there was a scuffle and I
turned from what I was doing and ran to it and I could see the
fLght, they had kinda gathered around, and I caught hold of Preston
Horton and pulled him up off him, and I saw that it was Maxium
Carl Rice on the ground and Sergeant Walden was there about
that time.
Q Who is he?
A He is Member of the Georgia Bureau of Investigation.
Q What is his first name?
A Henry Walden, H. L. Walden. He had Preston Horton
by one arm and I turned to one of my officers, Fuqua, and told
him to take the subject inside and book him and charge him and
I turned around to see the condition of Max Rice and he was still
on the ground, near the side walk, and I used a walkie-Talkie
Radio that I had and advised my dispatcher to dispatch an ambul
ance to the scene.
Q Was that done?
A It was done.
Q Then what was done? Then what happened?
183
A I helped them load Maxium Carl Rice on a stretcher
and pieced him in an ambulance and sent one of my officers with
the attendant in the ambulance.
Q What was the purpose of sending one of your
officers with him?
A The attendant was alone and couldn't load him by
himself and therefore he couldn't unload him and I sent Officer
Hightower in the ambulance with him.
Q Did you see Maxium Rice immddiately before the
scuffle that you have described?
A No, not immediately before. I had seen him in
that area. He was walking up and down and running up and down
die side walk in thag general area, going to this group of
colored people, and then moving off out of my sight. It was
dark at this time. It was getting dark about 8:00 o'clock.
Q How long did thse individuals remain at the First
Baptist Church there on the side walk?
A I would say about ten minutes.
Q And what were they doing during that time?
A They were singing and chanting, so to speak.
Q Did Maxium Rice make any complaint to you con
cerning this incident?
A None whatsoever.
Q Did anyone?
184
A No one has made a complaint to me, or filed a
complaint, no.
q What was done at the time - or was anything done
at the time to Preston Horton?
A Preston Horton was arrested and placed in the
city jail, charged with disorderly conduct.
q Has that case been disposed of?
A It has.
q Who is Preston Horton?
A He is a white male, approximately 38 years old.
He has black hair. He is a former member, some years back, he
has been employed by the City of Dublin as a policeman.
q Was he, on that date, employed by the City of
Dublin?
A No, and has not been I know since I have been
Chief of Police of Dublin.
Q Is he a member of the auxiliary police force?
A He is not and never has been.
Q Now, with reference to this statement of Maxium
Rice that I have exhibited to you says this: "During the time
I was being beaten Chief Josey was present and about eight other
policemen. Neither Chief Josey or any of the other policemen did
anything to prevent the beating or to help me. They just stood.
Some standby pulled the man off me. I heard some one say "stop
that fellow."
185
A That's a lie. I pulled the man off him. I went
directly to him when the commotion occurred.
q Is that statement that I have just read you true?
A It is not.
q Is any part of it true?
A No part of it is true. Well, yes, the part that
the policemen were in the area is true.
MR. MOORE: I move that be struck, the witness can state
the facts that he knows.
THE COURT: I think that is what he is endeavoring to do.
I guess he got the cart before the horse, you would say, but he
was getting to it when you bbjected. He was getting to it. So,
you may go ahead.
THE WITNESS: The part that there were policemen in
the area is true.
q How many policemen were in the area at that time?
A All the policemen on duty were in the area.
q How many was that?
A That consisted of about eight.
THE COURT: Let me ask you a question: You said that one
of the participants in this fight was a former policeman. Who
was the other man? Was he a native of Dublin or not? Read it.
I think he said in the first part of that affidavit.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir."Now comes the undersigned
Officer authorized by law to administer oath, Maxium Carl Rice,
186
23, white, who being first duly sworn, deposes and says:
I live in Columbiaville, Michigan. In April 1964
I graduated from Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, with
a RS.Degree. Following graduation I worked for the Ethyl Cor
poration Research Laboratory, in Ferndale, Michigan. I plan to
enter a Theological School this fall. I am now a Summer Vol
unteer with SCOPE” ---
THE COURT: (Interposing) That's all right. I just
wanted to find out who the other man was. One of them was a
foremer policeman of Dublin and I just wanted to find out who
the other man was and where he was from. Go ahead.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir.
Q Now, in this affidavit it further says that "just
before the attack I and another white person, along with about
twelve NegDoes, had been conducting a prayer virgil, protesting
racial discrimination at the church. At first we attempted to
stand near th4 front of the church with our heads bowed and
pray. Chief Josey moved us across the street to the City Hall
side." Is that true?
A In part. I believe they did bow their heads. I
don't know if they were praying, and I waited patiently until, oh,
some four or five minutes until they finished before I moved
them across the street.
MR. MOORE: I object to the characterization that he
waited patiently. That is a conclusion of the witness.
187
THE COURT: He can stfite about how long he waited.
Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: Oh, I would say three to five minutes.
Q In other words, you waited for them to finish
praying?
A Yes, sir.
Q You waited a reasonable time?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right, go ahead.
A And then I moved them across the street. The
church services were beginning. I asked them to leave the
immediate area because the crowds were beginning to gather at
that time.
Q Did you ask the crowd to move off?
A I did. I asked my officers to move them back.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I hate to interrupt him, but
I object to this type of questioning. This is Mr. Hayes' witness
and I don't think leading questions are proper.
THE COURT: I think he was asking from the affidavit.
I think the affidavit was by one of your witnesses. That is just
a matter of detail. What he is asking now, I think, is to get
over your objection to the fact that he had not laid the proper
foundation and he is trying to show that it was getting out of
hand. That is my recollection of it, and I think this witness'
testimony that he moved the people back across the street and
188
other matters there, I think that is admissible.
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir, but I don't think he can do it
by leading questions.
THE COURT: Well, I don't think it has been exceedingly
leading. He was reading mostly from the affidavit of your witness.
Go ahead, you may proceed. I will overrule your motion on that.
Q This affidavit further says: "While we stood
there a city fireman threw oil of mustard on us." Did you see
any such a thing happen?
A Nothing of this nature happened. I was in the
a r e a --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I object to that and move
that the answer be stricken in that it is not responsive.
THE COURT: He asked him if any oil of mustard was there.
He has testified that it was under his custody and control. So,
you may proceed.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I don't think that is exactly --
THE COURT: (Interposing) Well, I think I am the one
to judge whether it is relevant or not. Go ahead.
Q Had oil of mustard been thrown were you in position
to have seen it?
MR. MOORE: I object to that, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I overrule your objection.
MR. MOORE: That is speculative.
THE COURT: I overrule your objection. I think it is
189
admissible. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: I would have. I was in the area the
entire time directing the operations of my policemen. I have
seen no indication of any gas of any type used and I have had
the occasions to use tear gas in the past and I know the effects
of gas and there was none used and there was none in the air.
MR. MOORE: Now, I move to strike that testimony, One,
it is speculative and, two, it is irrelevant to the question
asked.
THE COURT: All right, now, what is speculation?
MR. MOORE: He said that he would have been in position
to see it, if it hdd been done.
THE COURT: That is not speculation. That is a direct
statement.
MR. MOORE: There is no evidence before the Court
respecting tear gas that this witness has testified abaout.
THE COURT: That was in the affidavit, was it not?
MR. HAYES: It says "oil of mustard", Your Honor.
THE COURT: That is a part of your affidavit that oil
of mustard was used, and I think that is a direct statement,
and certainly it is admissible for him to state that it wasn't
true.
MR. MOORE: I don't think he can establish by this
witness that oil of mustard is in fact a tear gas.
THE COURT: Well, it is in that affidavit. What is it,
190
oil of mustard or tear gas, what was it?
MR. HAYES: Your Honor, the affidavit says that the
"City fireman threw oil of mustard on us."
THE COURT: Did you see any evidence of that?
THE WITNESS: There was no evidence of gas or any
mustard or anything of that nature in that area.
THE COURT: All right, I think that is admissible.
Q The affidavit further says: "I approached two
police officers and asked them who threw the oil of mustard
and they said that it would be impossible to find that person."
Was there any report made to you of that?
A None whatsoever.
Q The affidavit further says: "As a result of the
oil of mustard most of the girls were crying and one girl was
blinded."
blinded?
A
Q
A
No, sir.
Did you s ee any individual being blinded?
No, sir. These people were freely moving around
in that area. There was nothing to indicate that any of them
wre blind or any way in part.
Q Did you bbserve them yourself?
A I did. They were singing and chanting. I talked
with them and ask them to go their homes or go back to the colored
191
church which they markhed from to this First Baptist Church and
they continued to sing and chant, and I was in the process of
moving them when this incident occurred.
Q Then what happened?
A I heard the scuffle and turned and arrested this
Horton subject. My officers immediately cleared t;he area, the
entire ;area. This was the only arrest made, this Preston Horton.
These Negroes were gone in just a few minutes and the Whites
leered and was no trouble at all.
Q Now, this affidavit further says: "I asked police
officers to call and ambulance and they refused."
A I called an ambulance myself for this Rice fellow,
or had the dispatcher to dispatch one. The ambulance came and
there was only one operator and he stated to me that he was the
only on duty at that time and I sent Officer Hightower with him.
Q Now, this hit and run incident, as referred to
in this affidavit, do you know whether or not that was a city
case or a state case?
A It is a state case.
THE COURT: What was that? I never heard anything
about that.
MR. HAYES: Shall I read it to you, Judge?
THE COURT: Yes, read that portion of it.
MR. HAYES: The affidavit further says: "On or about
Tuesday, August 17th, 1965, I had a collision with another
192
motorist in Dublin --
THE COURT: (Interposing) That was another case, was
it?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir, but this is in evidence.
THE COURT: All right, go ahead.
q "At the time of the accident the motorist and I
exchanged names, addresses and telephone numbers, and I then
drove over to Americus and later went to Atlanta. Upon my return
Wednesday, August 18th, 1965, I was stopped by two policemen on
the Dublin Police Force. The officers took me to the City Hall
and filed charges. At the City Hall they showed me a piece of
paper which said I was charged with hit and run. From the city
hall they took me to the county court house. I was jailed at
the county court house without benefit of having bond set. I
asked to be let out on bond. They said they would not set any
until 9:00 o'clock the next morning. I stayed in jail until
9:30 the next morning when I was released on bond in the amount
of three hundred security." I will have to get to that later.
THE COURT: All right.
q I believe you testfied that there were no other
arrests made at that time other than Preston Horton?
A None that I know, none that I recall.
THE COURT: Anything else?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Well, we will take a five minutes recess.
193
THE MARSHAL: Take a five minutes recess.
(NOTE: Accordingly, at this point a recess was then
had from 11:25, A. M., until 11:32, A. M., at which time the
proceedings were resumed as follows.)
THE COURT: All right, you may proceed.
Q (By Mr. Hayes) Chief Josey, where ;were you on
August 11th, 1965 at about 8:00 P. M.?
A I was on Glenwood Avenue.
Q Where?
A Near Todd's Service Station.
Q Where?
A In the City of Dublin, Georgia.
Q Why were you there?
A I had been called there by Sergeant Harden in
respect to the situation that was developing there concerning
some picketing of this station and crowdds of people gathering
in the streets on the side walks in this area.
Q How long did you remain in that area?
A I was in that area for approximately and hour and
a half or two hours.When I arrived there there were a number of
pickets in front of Todd's Service Station, a number, I would
say, of approximately 50. The side walks were completely blocked.
The drive ways were blocked at this service station. There were
194
crowds across the street from this service station on the Glenwood
side and on the Warbash side. There were people in the streets
moving back and forth from the picket line. The entire area
there, I would say, for a block - the streets and side walks were
blocked from these crowds of people that had gathered in that
area. There had been a fight at this service station. Some of
these pickets had attempted to beat the colored attendant there.
MR. MOORE: I object to that,Your Honor, unless he
can identify the persons.
THE COURT: I think he could say certain pickets. He
wouldn't have to identify them by name. He could say certain
pickets.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I would suggest, if I may, that
he would have to because no one has been charged yet with any
assault and battery or assault with intent to murder or anything.
THE COURT: I understand that, but he said he went
there and he saw these pickets around there. I don't know whether
he knows the exact ones or not, but he said some pickets. Did
you say a picket, or pickets?
THE WITNESS: Some of the people in this area - now,
these people were picketing. There was no specific ones for any
length of time. They were running back and forth across the
streets in groups, changing frequently, with these pepple that
were gathered across the street participating at times. There
was no system at all. Sergeant Harden reported when he arrived
195
there that some of these people had attempted to beat this colored
attendant and I talked to him and asked him who it was --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I object to that, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Just one minute. When he gets through then'
jou can raise your objection.
THE WITNESS: I talked to this colored attendant and
asked him who it was that attempted to beat him and he advised
me that he didn't know the ones. It was dark at that time and
I asked him - I advised him that I would furnish a patrol car
to take him home. It was about time for this station to close,
to take him to his home and he replied "Chief, I have been living
in this town all of my life. I have been walking back and forth
home, and I am not going to let these Negroes bluff me out of
going about my normal routine. I am going to walk home tonight."
THE COURT: Well, I think, perhaps, that would be inad
missible, this conversation, but I think by his identifying and
saying some pickets had a fuss or fight there there, or something,
I think that is admissible, because you wouldn't have to identify
a man if you say "I was out there and I saw such and such a thing."
Why, that is admissible. I overrule your motion as to that, but
his conversation with this bpy, who was the attendant, I will
rule that out as hearsay evidence. All right, you may proceed.
Q Can you identify that?
A This is a sketch of Glenwood Avenue in the City
194
of Dublin, Hudson street to Warbash street, this is a sketch of
the area in question.
Q All right, Are you familiar with that area?
A I am.
Q Are you familiar with that sketch?
A 1 am.
Q Does ;that, with the exception of not being drawn
to scale, does that represent the designated area?
A It does.
THE COURT: Well, submit that to counsel, if you will.
MR. MOORE:Your Honor, we will agree that ill represents
tte area, but there is one aspect of it that I cannot agree and
that is whether or not it truely reflects the number of pickets.
THE COURT: Well, is there any number of pickets
designated on there?
THE WITNESS: Not that I see.
MR. MOORE: They have dotted lines which confuses me.
I don't know whether they intend to show by that the way the
pickets walked, or their route of walking, or the number of
pickets. I wonder if he could clarify it.
THE COURT: What do you say to that? Do you say
there were pickets?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT:Does that represent the number of pickets?
195
Q What is this?
A This is the area in which the pickets were carrying
on their piceting.
THE COURT: But it does not designate the nu mber of
pickets, is that right, Mr.Witness?
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
MR. MOORE: It just designates the way in which they
picketed?
THE WITNESS: Right.
THE COURT: Then there is no objections to it ?
MR. MOORE: No objections.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: There was no specific number - well, at
times there was a great number, fifty or sixty or more --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I move to strike that.
THE COURT: Why?
MR. MOORE: It is not responsive. It is not the question
before the witness.
THE COURT: What was the question you asked?
THE WITNESS: He asked if these dotted lines represented
the pickets.
H THE COURT: But not the number?
THE WITNESS: That's right.
THE COURT: Is that your question?
MR. HAYES: No, sir. He questioned him. I didn't ask
him that.
196
MR. MOORE: I didn't question him, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, who is doing the questioning out
there? Which one of you all?
MR. HAYES: Well, I have been trying to.
THE COURT: 0. K. Well, I think he just raised his
objection, and I want the question that you propounded to him.
MR. HAYES: I haven't yet.
THE COURT: All right, go ahead, and then see if he
has any objection.
Q Will you descfibe, using that sketch, will you
describe to the court what you found with reference to the
pickets during this time you observed them?
A When I arrived there were approximately, I would
say between 45 and 60 pickets, or people carrying signs on the
side walk directly in front of Todd's Service Station on the
side walks and across the drive ways. In fact, I had to turn
and drive into the area on the Warbash side. These people, some
of them were carrying signs and some of them were not. There
were people lined on both sides of the street four and five
deep. There were people going back and forth across the street
from the picket line in groups, in droves, so to speak.
MR. MOORE: I object to the word ' droves", because it
is too indefinite, Yonr Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
197
THE WITNESS: Well, in groups of more than two.
THE COURT: You say in groups of more than two?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right,I think with that, I think that
is admissible.
THE WITNESS: The traffic in this area was at a halt.
The side walks were blocked and the streets. The traffic travelling
on Georgia 19 was hasardous due to these pepple in the street.
MR. MOORE: I object to that, Your Honor, about it being
hqzardous.
THE COURT: Well, you might - well, I am not trying to
tell you what to say. Well, I will sustain you as to that word
hazardous. Go ahead.
Q Can you be more specific?
A I assigned officers to try to eliminate the
traffic congestion and the blockading of the streets in this area
when I arrived. I radioed to Police Headquarters for Lieutenant
DeLoach to bring me a fog horn or loud speaker, so to speak, and
when it arrived I addressed these people. I addressed them as
Chief of Police and advised them to clear that area and to go
to their homes, that this was an unlawful assembly, that the
side walks and streets were block, to lea ve that immediate area
and go to their homes. I advised them that if they did not go
to their homes and clear the streets and side walks that they
would be arrested.
198
THE COURT: Well, did they leave immediately?
THE WITNESS: No, sir. They made no attempt to move.
I gave this command several times, more than three, and advised
them that if they didn't move that they would be arrested for
violation of city ordinance 26-22, that they had blocked the
streets in that area, the side walks were blocked, there were
people standing on the side walks four and five deep. They made
no attempt to move. I radioed previously to this to the police
department and had my entire police department called on duty,
the men that were off duty, I had the reserved department called
in for duty, and some ten minutes later when they began arriving -
I waited there some ten or fifteen minutes until some of these
men could arrive. The ehtire shift that was on duty was in that
immediate area. I told these people that if they refused to
leave this area and relieve this situation that they would be
arrested and when they refused to move and comply with this order
they were arrested and taken to the county jail.
Q How many times did you give this order?
A More than three. I used this fog horn - I stepped
upon - there was about a two foot high cement block here, right
near this intersection of Warbash and Glenwood and I addressed
the people on the Glenwood side and then I would turn to the
Warbash side and be sure that the sound carried up and down both
streets in that entire neighborhood.
199
Q After you gave the last order, gave the order
he last time, what did you then do?
A I commanded my officers to arrest them.
Q How long a period of time or interval took place
in giving the ldfirst order and the first arrest?
A Approximately ten or fifteen minutes.
Q And what interval of time took place between the
last order and the first arrest?
A Oh, I would say some few minutes.
Q Would you say how many?
A Three or four minutes. I talked to Sergeant Harden.
They were making no apparent effort to move and I had him to
give the order. I gave the order to him to proceed with the
arrest. There were two deputy sheriffs in the are$, and all of
my entire department that was on duty was in the area.
Q How many/ police officers were in the area, to
your knowledge, at that time?
A There were approximately eight at that time.
Q How many officers of the Sheriff's Department
was there?
A Three.
Q Were there any other officers there?
A Sergeant Walden of the Georgia Bureau of Investi
gation was there.
200V ZUU
Q Where was he?
A He was near me. He was standing very near me.
Q How long did he remain inrf that area?
A During this entire time.
Q Were there any officers that you know of that was
in that area?
A Lt. DeLoach was in the area.
Q Were there any other officers?
A No, that I recall. There were police officers,
Sheriff's deputies, Lt. DeLoach and myself and Sergeant Walden.
Q Will you describe to this court the incident --
Strike that. Where were you when the arrests were made?
A I was in a command position, so to speak. I
was standing on about a two foot concrete block observing the
entire area.
Q From Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 2, can you identify
your location?
A I was standing on this block right hered.
Q Where?
A There is a block right here, Judge. You can see
the intersection of Glenwood and Warbash.
Q Will you identify that location on that sketch?
A This is the intersection of Glenwood and Warbash
right here. (Indicating on sketch)
Q From that position, what could you bbserve,
Cief Josey?
A I could observe the streets of Glenwood and
Warbash, the entire area.
Q What did you see taking place?
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I hate to aiake this type of
objection, but I think that is a little too vague. What did you
see taking place?
THE COURT: I don't see how you could make it more
explicit, what did you see?
MR. MOORE: Suppose nothing was taking place, Your
Honor?
THE COURT: What?
MR. MOORE: Suppose nothing was taking place.
THE COURT: He could testify to it.
MR. MOORE: He is suggesting to the witness that something
did take place.
THE COURT: I just don't know how it could be any more
explicit then to ask him: What did you see?
THE WITNESS: I could see these streets block and I
could see the side walks blocked. I could see the entrances to
this service station blocked.
MR. MOORE: I object to that, Your Honor, as being a
201
mere conclusion of the witness.
202
THE COURT: Well, I don't know, I think the witness,
especially a Chief of Police, who has had experience, can testify
whether the road was blocked or not. I just don't see how he
could be more explicit than what he has said.
THE WITNESS: I would estimate that there were 300 Negoes
in this immediate area. They were moving back and forth across
Glenwood Avenue in groups of more than two at no specific intervals,
and the streets were crowded throughout this time.
Q Were there arrests made?
A Yes, sir, there were arrests made.
Q Did you observe these arrefets?
A I did.
Q /That did you see?
A When I directed my officers to arrest them they
immediately took hold of the onest nearest them and placed them
in the patrol cars and the others began to disperse at this point
and move back and began moving out of this area after my officers
began placing them under arrest and in these cars, and they began
to disperse immediately after Reuben Gamble was arrested. I
observed him across the street jumping up and down and telling
them not to move but to stay there and not to move.
THE COURT: Who is Reuben Gamble?
THE WITNESS: He is the man sitting there at the table.
THE COURT: The one that came into court without a coat?
THE WITNESS: That's exactly right.
203
Qls he one of the plaintiffs in this case?
A He is.
Q Will you point him out?
A He is sitting to the left of Lawyer Moore.
Q All right, go ahead.
A After he was arrested and placed in a car they
began to disperse and ninety percent of them moved from this
area up to this SCOPE building, went directly to this SCOPE office
after the officers began arresting them. They moved from the area
of this service station and crowded in and around this SCOPE
office that was approximately a half block up south on Glenwood,
about 700 feet, I would say, from this Todd Service Station.
Q How many were arrested at that time?
A Fifty two, I believe.
Q Did you observe any violence on the part of any
of the police officers?
A No, I didn't. The arrest was very orderly. There
were no incidents at all. The arrests merely consisted of taking
hold of them by their arms and placing them in the car. Some of
them would drag back but I wouldn't consider that as resisting.
After the officers took them by the arm they went very quitely to
he (police car. There were no incidents at all that I observed.
THE COURT: Did you see any beatings by the officers
of any of them?
THE WITNESS: None whatsoever.
Q
A
204
Did you observe, yourself, all of these arrests?
Yes, I did.
Q Where were - what equipment did these arresting
officers have with them at the time of the arrests?
A These men were equipped with crash helmets, their
regular uniforms, consisting of cartridge belts and holsters and
night sticks. These night sticks were on their belts.
Q I will ask you whether or not you saw any police
cfficer with a night stick in his hand?
A I saw no police officer with a night stick raised
MR. MOORE: I object to that and move to strike the
answer.
THE WCOURT: Why?
MR. MOORE: On the ground it is not responsive.
THE COURT: He asked whether he saw it or not.
MR. MOORE: He asked did he see any police officer with
a night stick in his hand, and the witness answered that he saw
no night stick raised.
THE COURT: Well, I think that is admissible.
THE WITNESS: The night sticks were on their belts.
THE COURT: They were on their belts?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir,
THE COURT: Well, I think that answers it.
Q Now, Chief Josey, the affidavit of Samuel Jackson
offered in evidence in this case, sworn to on the 21st of August,
205
1965, says, among other things: "On Wednesday August 11th, 1965,
about 9:00 P. M., I was /picketing the Todd Service Station in
Dublin." Then it goes on to say: "I think Mrs, Todd called the
police. After the first group of police came, the second group
arrived. Finally Chief Josey came and toJ.d us to disperse and go
home. We kept on marching. Josey told us again to go home. We
then started to go home and he said "You are all under an arrest.
At that time I was crossing the street on my way home. A Negro
police officer grabbed me and took me to the car. As he was taking
me to a car a white police officer came over and hit me in the
stomach with his fist. 1 caught my stomach and went into the car.
Then they drove us to jail."
Did you see any such a thing happen?
A No, I did not. And I received no complaint of
such a thing happening.
Q Do you know whether cr not any such incident did
take place?
A It did not.
Q He goes on further
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I object to that, Your Honor,
and move to strike the answer on the ground that it is not re
sponsive. He asked if knew whether any such incident happened,
and he said it did not.
THE COURT: Well, that answers it. I don't see how he
can be more explicit than that.
206
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, he asked if he knew.
THE COURT: Well, he said he didn't see any such an
incident and that no complaint had been filed. I am overruling
your objection on that.
MR. MOORE: Pardon me. Your Honor, one further question,
Will Your Honor construe the answer as being one that he did
not know?
THE COURT: Yes, go ahead.
Q Did the incidents that I read to you from this
affidavit take place?
A No, they did not, as stated there. I did come
to that area. I gave the orders to disperse and to go home several
times and when they refused to go they were arrested.
Q This article further says: "They put about 40 of
us boys in one cell in the county jail. On Thursday night they
hotssome gas into the jail.The gas gave me a headache."
Did that happ en?
A So far as I know, it didn't. The Sheriff maintains
and operates the county jail.
Q Have you ever had any reports that it did happen?
A None whatsoever, no complaints in any way, shape,
form or fashion.
Q Now, I read from an affidavit offered in evidence
in this case by Frank Stanley, which says, in part: "On Wednesday,
207
August 11th, 1965, at at about 9:30 P. M., I was standing in
front of the Glenwood Soda Shop. A white policeman, Mr. Jerry
Daniels" ---
Qo you have a white policeman by the name of Jerry
Daniels on your force?
A I did.
Q --"was running a colored boy down the road swinging
at him with a club." Was Jerry Daniels on duty at that time?
A He was.
Q Did you observe him at the time and place you
testified to?
A I did.
Q Did you observe him at this time at 9:30, P. M.,
on August 11th, 1965?
A I did.
Q Is this incident here about a white policeman, Mr.
Jerry Daniels, running a colored boy down the road swinging at him
with a club true?
A No, it isn't,so far as I know.
q "Then he came back up the street where I was by the
car. He szid, I said run, and I started walking across and Mr.
Daniels started swinging at me with the club. I turned around to
keep him from hitting me on the head. He started hitting me on
the hand and arm with his club. He kept hitting at me. I kept
ducking." Did you see any of that?
208
A No, sir.
Q Is that true?
A That's not true.
E$R. MOORE: I move that the witness' answer be struck,
because if he did not see it, he would not be in position to say
whether it was true or not.
THE COURT: He said he didns't see it. If it had happened,
would you have seen it?
THE WITNESS: Judge, I was observing the entire area
and was observing my officers as they arrested these people, and
I have already testified that the afrests were very orderly. They
offered practically no resistance. The arrests were procured by
taking these people bodily by the arm and taking them and placing
them in the partrol car and transporting them to the county jail.
THE COURT: I will let him go ahead.
Q "About nine months ago I was shot through the nose
and the bullet lodged in the back of my head. I am not even suppose
to even bump my head. As I was backing away another policeman
came up and caught me by the arm and both officers started twisting
my arms." Did you see that?
A No, I didn't.
Q Were you in position to see it?
A I was.
Q Did it happen?
A So far as I know, it did not. I received no com
plaint of it.
209
Q "They put me in the car and took me to the county
jail, On Thursday night, while I was in jail, they shot some kind
of gas into our cell." Did you have apy complaint of any gas
being shot into the cell?
A None whatsoever.
Q Was any shot in there?
A None.
Q Did Frank Stanley, or any other person make any
complaint concerning these facts that he has testified to?
A None whatsoever.
Q Now, did tfyou make any arrests at a place called
NAACP Headquarters and the SCOPE Headquarters?
A I did.
Q When was that?
A These people moved from across the street and this
SCOPE Headquarters is approximately 700 yards sooth on Glenwood
Road. These pi peopled moved and congregated in that area. They
ere arra6ted in front of Todd's Service Station. Hhey merely moved
about, I would say 700 feet, down south on Glenwood and congregated
in and around this SCOPE Headquarters.
Q What did you then do?
A I mowed down the street and addressed these people
and advised them to leave that immediate area and go to their
homes or they would be arrested.
210
q Then what happened?
A They were arrested. This Scope Headwarters is
kind of a car shelder sort of deal at the rear of this building,
and they were standing under this shelder in and around this
building and they refused to leave and they were arrested.
Q Were there any doors to this Headquarters you
have described?
A Yes. Now, under this shelder sort of a thing
there was a door on back further into the rear of that building.
Q Did you handle these arrests yourself?
A I was in that area.
Q Did you have a conversation with these individuals
before they were arrested?
A Not individually. I advised them to leave this
immediate area and to go their homes and they made no attempt.
They just merely moved down the side walk about 700 yards to
in and around this Scope building, I mean about 700 feet.
Q Now, did you make any arrest at the Scope Head
quarters that you have just described?
A I did.
q State the circumstances?
A These people wee gathered in and around this
Scope Headquarters, and as I stated they moved down there directly,
say, 700 feet north, and after they refused to leave and clear
that area I had them arrested.
211
Q Why?
A To keep the peace and to restore law and order to
this entire area for the protection of all of the citizens.
MR. MOORE: I bbject to that, Your Honor, and move that
it be stricken. There is not proper foundation to show that.
THE COURT: I don’t know whether it would be or not. He
has testified from what he saw himself and what he knows himself.
I will let it remain in evidence.
MR. MOORE: We object to it as self-serving also.
THE COURT: X understand and you can file your exceptions
if you so desire.
Q Did you observe these arrests as they were being
made?
A I did.
THE COURT: That is in the event the cases go up. I am
not assuming anything, but I meant if you so desired you could
file your exceptions.
Q Now, I read you this affidavit ;by Gwendlen Davis
in part, which says: - or Gwendlon Lewis, which says: ”0n August
11th, 1965, Wednesday night, between the hours of 9:25 and 9:45
Officer Herton - do you have an officer on your police force by
thfit name?
A I do not.
Q "Officer Herden came to the door of the NAACP office
and informed us that anyone wanting to go home could and some of
212
the people started out of the door, and the officer told them
that they were under an arrest for unlawful assembly, and a
lady was on the telephone talking to the FBI and Office Fuqua" --
do you have an officer Fuqua?
A I do.
Q --"smashed the receiver and he stood there about
two or three minutes with the telephone still in her hand and
another member was dictating and Chief Josey snatched the paper
out of her hand and grabbed her arm and told all of us that we
were under an arrest, and before all of this about eight or ten
officers were outside"-- let me read that over: "about eight or
ten officers were outside before they came in in cars from East
Dublin, County deputies and city officers were all around there
to carry us down, rfe were carried to the county jail and boaaked
and locked up.In about 30 or 40 minutes we had to go down and
have pictures taken, tfddnesday night we slept on the floor."
Now, ylu say you do not have an officer Herton on your
police force?
A No, sir.
Q Did you observe Office Fuqua while he was making
these arrests?
£ I did.
Q Did he smash the receiver of the telephone?
A He did not.
213
Q Did you snatch any paper out of somebody's hand
J jwho was dictating?
A None whatsoever. I arrested Linda DeNotie in that
area.
Q Are these statements that I have read to you from
this affidavit true?
A They are not.
Q Now, I read to you an affidavit from Mrs.Emma
Gene B. Thomas, 22, Negro.
MR. MOORE: You mean Negro?
MR. HAYES: I said Negro. You muftt have misunderstood me.
Q "On Wednesday, August 11th, 1965, I was in the
NAACP office at 222 Glenwood Avenue in Dublin. This office is
also used by Scope. About 9:30 in the evening Chief Josey came
with some other police officers. He said all that we want - all
that want to, can go. Some people started walking out and then
he said "I am going to count to three and arrest you all - are
going to jail" -- I will read that over. "I am going to count
to three and the rest of you all are going to jail." Is that
ture?
A That is mmmt not true. I made no such statement.
Q "Chief Josey told us to line up and ordered the
officers to put us in their cars." Is that true?
A No, that is not true.
214
q "I got in the police car with three other fellows
and there was no room for me. The police told me to crawl over
the three fellows. They took us down to the jail. I stayed in
jail Wednesday night" -- well, you wouldn't know about that.
Those statements that I have read to you, are they true or not
true.
A They are not true.
q From your own personal knowledge?
A Yes, they are not true.
Q Now, I have an affidavit here from Shirley Bolden.
I will ask you if you have any case pending in the Recorder's
Court of the City of Dublin against Shirley Bolden?
A I have none.
Q Do you have one pending against one Herman Kirkland?
A I have none.
Q Do you know of your own personal knowledge whether
or not there are any cases in Laurens County pending against
Shirley Bolden and Herman Kirkland?
A I believe there are state cases pending against
than
Q Did you investigate the dockets to find out?
A Yes.
Q What did your investigation reveal?
A They are charged with misdemeanors, returnable
to the City Court.
215
THE COURT: What were the misdemeanors?
THE WITNESS: This Shirley Bolden, there was a warrant
sworn out. She was arrested on a warrant.
THE COURT: You wouldn't know what the warrant was for?
THE WITNESS: No, sir, not exactly. It was for a simple
assault, I believe. And this Herman Kirkland --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I object to that,Y0ur Honor.
The warrant would be the highest and best evidence?
THE COURT: Well, I imagine it would be. Perhaps the
Court should not have asked that question.
MR. HAYES: We will prove that, Judge.
THE COURT: Well, if he has read the warrant over and
knows of his own knowledge, then I think it would be admissible.
You need not consider that question and answer. I rule that out.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir.
THE WITNESS: Herman Kirkland was arrested on a public
drunk charge.
Q Do you know that of your own knowledge?
A Yes, I do.
Q Is that in the Recorder's Ccurt?
A No, it will be tried in the City Court. He was
arrested by a deputy sheriff.
THE COURT: Wel>, I don't know if any of that would be
admissible in connection with this case here.
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir. Your Honor, excuse me.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. HAYES: I have a motion in this case, along with
these other cases, to dismiss this removal petition here, the
City of Dublin Vs Shirley Bolden and Herman Kirkland on the
ground that there is no pending prosecution in the Recorder's
Court and has been none against these individuals.
THE COURT: Well, I am going to take all of these motions
up, and these affidavits. I think you have moved to strike all
of these affidavits because you didn't have an opportunity to
cross question them, but the attorney said they were all here in
the event you did want to cross question them.
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Therefore, I am going to withhold all of my
judgments on those until I render my decision in this case.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir. I just wanted to tell you
the reason why.
THE COURT: That's all right.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I would just like to state that
if the facts jhe states are true then he wouldnjt have any standing
to make a motion to dismiss.
THE COURT: Well, I am going to rule on all the motions
that he has made and all the motions that you have made - the
Court Reporter has got it in the record. He is taking everything
216
217
down, and I will take those motions one by one at the time I go
to render my decision.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir, may I proceed, Judge?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q I read from an affidavit by Winney Howard which
ays, in part, as follows: "On August 11th, 1965, I was picketing
in front of Todd's Service Station. About 8:30, P. M. I stopped
picketing and went across the street to a cafe. While I was
sitting there I heard people yelling and so I went to the window
to see what was happening. I saw two policemen beating a man that
was wearing a white shirt." Did that happen?
A No, it did not.
Q "People began to crowd into the cafe so I went
back to my seat and then a policeman came to the door and told
us to leave or he would shoot tear gas into the building."
Do you know of your own knowledge whether that happened or not?
A It did not.
Q "I didn't want tear gas, so I left and went to
the NAACP office where I had been doing volunteer work. After
being there about ten or fifteen minutes Chief Josey came with
some other officers. Chief Josey told us to go home if we didn't
want to go to jail." Is that true?
A No, it is not.
Q "I did not move until he said that we were under
an arrest." Is that true?
218
A None of that is true.
Q "At that time a policeman hung up the telephone
that was Bernice Turner was talking on."
A I don't know if she hung up the telephone.
Q I will re-read that sentence: "I did not move
until he said that we were under an arrest." Now, the next
sentence: "At that time a policeman hung up the telephone that
Bernice Turner was talking on." Now, did you see that happen?
~ I did not.
Q Did it happen?
A No, it did not.
Q "Chief Josey grabbed Linda DeNotie by the right
arm and said: "All right, lets go." Do you know Linda Denetie
or DeNotie"?
A I do.
Q Who is she?
A She is an individual who has been in Dublin for
some three or four weeks associated with this Scope and --
Q (Interposing) Do you recognize that picture?
A This is a picture of Linda DeNotie.
Q Which one is she?
A She is the lighter one on the right.
THE COURT: Let me see it.
THE WITNESS: Nay, the other picture is the subject
making this affidavit.
Q Do you know her address?
A It's Ft. Bragg, California, I believe.
Q She is from California?
A Yes, sir.
Q "In front of the building I was put in the
Sheriff's Department car and taken to the county jail" -- I am
still rea ding from the affidavit of Winney Howard, "where I
stayed until Friday, August 13th, 1965. My first night at the
jail I slept on the floor. The jail was dirty and unsanitary."
Is the Laurens County jail dirty?
A I have been in the Laurens County jail many times,
and I have never seen it dirty and unsanitary. It is one of
the nicest jails in this part of the country. It is the Conrad
Hilton of the jails, you might say.
MR. MOORE: I object to that, Your Honor. There is no
foundation for that. The witness is not competent to testify as
to how the Laurens County jail compares with other jails.
THE COURT: What question did you ask him?
MR. HAYES: Well, I will withdraw all of that.
THE COURT: All right.
Q Just describe the Laurens County jail to the
court, will you?
A The Laurens County jail is a new and modern jail.
It is air-conditioned and is very sanitary. It has many modern
features.
Q How many times a week are you in that jail?
219
A Three to fifty times, I would say.
Q Have you ever seen it in a dirty and unsanitary
c ondition?
A Never.
Q "On Friday, about 9:15, A. M., a man whom I believe
was a GBI Agent came into our cells with the jailer, Mr. Bob Sellars,
and told him not to serve any more food until the place was cleaned
up." Was that true?
A I don't know.
Q Was any complaint ever made to you by Winney
Howard, or for anybody for Winney Howard concerning the statements
that he has made that I have read to you?
A None whatsoever.
Q None whatsoever?
A No, sir, on none of these statements. There has
never been any complaints made to me as Chief of Police of the
City of Dublin.
Q Now, I read from an affidavit by Jimmie Lee Guyton.
It is in evidence in this case: Jimmie Lee Guyton, 21, I live at
310 Warbash Street,Dublin, Georgia," It says in part, as follows:
"On Thursday,August 12th, 1965, I was picketing Todd's Service
Station. I had been picketing about an hour and I was arrested
by Dublin Police. At the time of the arrest we were just walking
around quitely in front with our signs." Is that true?
A No, it is not true.
220
221
Q VThe police told us to get out of line. They only
wanted six of us to march. We kept marching quitely around.We
were walking on the side walk, on the Glenwood side and we were
not blocking the diive way," Is that true?
A That is not true.
Q MThe police punched me in the stomach with his
stick and told m e to get in the car* Did you see that happen?
A No, I didn/t
Q It didn’t happen?
A No, sir.
Q "He didn't tell us what we were charged with. I
worked at the station before Mrs. Todd took it over
THE COURT: (Interposing) Did you go through all of
those?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir. Your Honor, there are several in
there that I think says nothing, as far as I am concerned, and I
am not going to take up the time of the court on those.
THE COURT: That's up to you. You handling the case.
MR. HAYES: There are one or two that I will have to use
other witnesses on.
THE COURT: All right.
Q Chief Josey, how long have you been Chief of
Police of Dublin?
A Since March of 1964.
222
q Do you have an auxiliary police force?
A I do. I have a police reserve unit.
q Who set that system up?
A I initiated it in the City of Dublin.
q Would you describe the initiation and the present
set up of this police force to the Judge?
A These pre people and citizens who live in the City
of Dublin and the immediate area. They are selected by the members
of this organization now. In the beginning they were selected
solely by the Chief of Police on basis of character and physical
fitness and so forth. They are used in times any emergency or
natural or man made disorders. They are used primarily to relieve
the regular officers from routine assignments, such as traffic
control and radio operators, to make my regular officers available
for more serious tasks in case of disaster or emergency. These
men are uniformed similar to the regular police department. Their
uniforms are paid for by themselves. They have put in, oh,
thousands of hours in service to the City of Dublin. Each one
of them has had at least 80 hours of class room training. They
have had in-service training with the regular officers of the
Dublin Police Department. Thhir uniforms and equipment are paid
for through various means, fund raising means, their service and
these unitorms has not cost the City of Dublin anything, the City
of Dublin has born none of the expense. As I aay, they have had
223
at least 80 hours of class room training on proper police pro
cedures and subjects relative to police work and regularly con
cerned with police work, and they also receive in-service training
with a regular officer. These people do not make an arrest. They
are merely there to assist the regular officers. Usually they
are assigned the less hazardous duties of traffic control and
operation of the communication system of the police department.
Q When was this system set up?
A About May of 1964, in May of 1964
Q How many members do you have at the present time?
A Twenty-two.
Q Are they all white?
A They are.
Q Have you had - or how do these people become
members of the organization?
A They make application exactly as a regular police
officer would --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I object to that,Your Honor.
I think the application itself would be the highest and best
evidence.
THE COURT: Do what?
MR. MOORE: The application itself would be the highest
and best evidence. He is testifying to the writing of other
persons not connected with this case, and -
THE COURT: (Interposing) Writing, did you say?
224
MR. MOORE: Etfe application.
THE COURT: Oh, you say that the application itself would
be the highest and best evidence?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: As to whether they made application or not?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir, and also --
THE COURT: (Interposing) Well, I think if he knows of
his own knowledge he can testify to it.
Q Go ahead.
A They make application the same as a regular officer.
Their character is investigated and they are brought - their
back ground and their qualifications are reviewed by the Sergeants
in the reserve unit and they are brought before the Chief of
Police who has the final say as to whether the man is accepted
or not.
Q Are these applications available to anyone?
A They are.
q Regardless of race, creed or color?
A They are.
Q Have you had any applications from any Negro
applicants?
A Not to my knowledge. None has come across my deak
for review.
Q Do you have any Negro officers on the Dublin Police
Force?
225
A I have two.
Q When were they employed?
A About four or five months ago.
Q Did you have authorization to employ Negro policemen
before you employed the two you now have?
A I did.
Q How long hdd yofa had authority to employ two
Negro policemen before you employed them?
A The CMef of Police has the full authority to hire
and fire anyone he deems necessary in the Dublin Police ?Department
Q Do you have --
THE COURT: Anything else?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
Q Has there been any other picketing in the City
of Dublin other than the picketing at the Todd Service Station
that you have described?
A There has. There has been picketing at the Colonial
Stores, and Winn-Dixie.
Q When was that?
A On several occasions along the last of July and
the first of August.
Q Do you know of your own knowledge who this picketing
was done ;by?
A They were done by Negro boys and girls. They were
226
carrying signs ;reading "SCOPE and NAACP". They were protesting
various things, and these signs bore the name of SCOPE or NAACP.
Q Did they have the authority to do this picketing?
A They were issued a permit by the City Manager.
Q Are you familiar with the permit?
A I am.
Q W^at were the terms of it?
A That there would be no more than six pickets at
any one time in front of these businesses, and --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I object to that,Your Honor.
I think if there is a regulation or ordinance with respecting to
picket that the regulation or ordinance itself would be the highest
and best evidence.
THE COURT: I think you are right.
MR. HAYES: Your Honor, there is no ordinance on that.
Well, that's all right.
Q Could you describe this picketing to the court?
A Yes, sir. It was carried on at Piggly-Wiggly and
Winn-Dixie and it consisted of six of them marching up and down
of the stores and usually there would be a crowd gathered
around, the police department was constantly having to deploy its
entire reserve in the areas to maintain the peace, to keep the
peace in these areas and protect these pickets from bodily harm
by by standers and so forth.
227
THE COURT: Well, listen, it is 12:30 now, and it is
my usual custom to adjourn at 12:30 and come back at 2:30. So,
Mr. Marshal you may recess court from now until 2:30 this after
noon.
THE MARSHAL: Take a recess until 2:30.
(NOTE: Accordingly, at this point the proceedings
were then recessed from 12:30, P. M., until 2:30, P. M., of the
same day, at which time the proceedings were resumed as follows.)
THE COURT: All right, you may proceed.
Q (By Mr. Hayes) Chief Josey, were any arrest cases
made against any of the demonstrators that were demonstrating and
picketing at Winn-Dixie?
A No, sir.
Q For how long a time did they picket Winn-Dixie?
A I don't know. You mean in days?
Q Yes, sir/
A Three or four days, I would say. I don't know
exactly.
Q Did you have any - was there any trouble or
incidents during this picketing at Winn-Dixie?
A They were.
Q State what they were to the court?
228
A One Saturday morning I remember specifically that
they were attacked by a white subject or harrassed by this white
subject, and upon arrival at the scene I arrested this subject.
He was in his car, driving up the street, and he was charged with
driving under the influence. He was under the influence of intoxi
cants .
Q What did your investigation reveal as to what he
did?
A He stated to me that he struck one of the pickets.
Q Was a case in the Recorder's Court made against
him?
A There was.
Q Has it been disposed of?
A It has been.
Q What was the dispotion of it?
A The bond was forfeited.
MR. MOORE: I object, Your Honor, the records of the
Recorder's Court would be the highest and best evidence.
THE COURT: Yes, I guess they would. I sustain the
objection.
Q Did you have any other incidents at the picketing
at Winn-Dixie?
A Yes, I had to have officers there constantly to
keep down trouble. It consisted of --
229
MR. MOORE: I object to that, Your Honor.
THE COURT: He said it consisted of something. Let me
sae what it consisted of.
THE WITNESS: It consisted various incidents that could
have develpped into trouble, and I had to assign officers to that
area constantly. In fact, it took my entire department constantly
assigned to protect these pickets.
MR. MOORE: I object to that and move that the answer
be struck, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I o verrule your objection.
MR. MOORE: May I state the grounds for the record,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes, you can, if you want to.
MR. MOORE: I object to it on the grounds that the
witness' testimony is based upon a hypothetical situation and the
witness has not set forth anything upon which he drew this con-
clusion.
THE COURT: I thought he did. I thought he said he had
to keep his force there all the time, that there was some harrassing
and that he arrested a man that was drunk, and he said there were
similar incidents, as I recall. I will admit it. What is the
relevancy of all that /happened up there at Winn-Dixe to these
cases? What ts the relevancy of it? Both sides have been going
into it.
230
MR. HAYES: They are claiming that they did not have
adequate police protection.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HAYES: And they are claiming further that there
was police brutality, and that unjufct arrests were made, and that
there was harrassement.
THE COURT: And you are trying to show that is not true?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right, I guess it is admissible.
Q Now, can you describe the picketing that took place
at the Colonial Stores?
A Yes, sir. There were approximately six pickets that
picketed in front of Colonial Stores for three to four days, and
this was during the same time that there were six more picketing
in front of Winn-Dixie. This necessitated having one group of
officers at Colonial Stores and one group at Winn-Dixie, and during
be time they were picketing, large groups or large crowds would
gather in the parking lots and the general businesses of these
areas were disrupted and the traffic was much greater and caused
the streets to be heavily congested. The side walks were blocked
for unreasonable length of time.
Q How long did this picketing in front of Colonial
Stores continue?
A From three to four days, I would say.
231
Q Did you make any arrests? Were any arrests made?
Were any arrests made during that period of time?
A Not that I recall.
Q Did these occasions that you have described from
he stand this morning have any effect upon your police department?
A It did.
MR. MOORE: I object, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, I don't know. Lets see what it is.
I want to hear it first.
THE WITNESS: It necessitated in using every available
officer I had at my command to keep the peace and protect these
pickets.
MR. MOORE: I object to that, Your Honor. That is a
conclusion of the witness.
THE COURT: I wouldn't say that. I think he would know.
He said it took all his officers there to protect them and keep
the peace.
MR. MOORE: There is no evidence, Your Honor, before
the court that the police officers have in any way protected the
pickets.
THE COURT: That is what he is testifying to now.
MR. MOORE: This is self-serving.
THE COURT: Well, lets don't argue about it. I ^111
admit it.
Q Go ahead?
232
THE WITNESS: It necessitated every officer on duty
having to be assigned to these particular areas to keep the
peace and protect these pickets, and therefore 9ther 15,000 or so
people in Dublin were without protection.
MR. MOORE: I object to that as a conclusion, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: I don't think it is a conclusion at all. I
think it is relevant.
MR. MOORE: There is no evidence that --
THE COURT: (Interposing) Well, what you think, I am
glad to hear it, but after all I am the judge of that.
MR. MOORE: I know, Your Honor, but I would like to
state my objection.
THE COURT: Well, I think you have. You contend that it
is a hypothetical question, and hypothetical questions are ad
missible in evidence, you knww.
MR. MOORE: Well, Your Honor, my objection is that there
is no evidence to support any conclusion that this witness is
making as to what happened to 15,000 other people in Dublin.
THE COURT: Well, as I recall, the testimony was that
there were 15 or 17,000 people in Dublin, and the natural presumption
is that they were supposed to protect the pepple at large and not
any particular group. I think it is admissible.
Q All right, will you continue?
233
A The Chief of Police is charged with protecting
every citizen in Dublin.
MR, MOORE: I think the law is the best evidence.
THE COURT: Well, I am admitting that evidence. I think
it is admisiible. You may go ahead.
THE WITNESS: And these gatherings and pickets, so to
speak, as I said, necessitated my officers being in that area
constantly and therefore they had devote their full time in keeping
the peace in this particular area and protecting these pickets
and consequently the other services rendered by the police de
partment had to go lacking.
Q If these picketings,as you have described, what
effect will that have yn your police department?
MR. MOORE: I object to that,Your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: In my opinion it would be detrimental to
the police department. It would necessitate the police department
to carry on their normal activities in furnishing equal and ade-
qiate protection to all of the citizens of Dublin.
MR. MOORE: I move that it be stricken.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q Chief Josey, based on what you have testified to
and what you have observed during these demonstrations, in your
opinion, have you furnished adequate protection, adequate police
protection for these pickets?
234
MR. MOORE: I object to that, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: I have furnished adequate police protection
for these demonstrations and picketings, but it consisted of using
every available man at my disposal.
MR. MOORE: I move to exclude that testimony, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q Now, this order - I believe you are familiar with
it - I heblieve there has bean questions about the order, signed
by Judge Ward giving you the authority to close these places?
A I am.
Q Do you recalls the date that order was signed?
A I believe it was signed on the 12th.
Q Of what month?
A August of 1965.
Q Was that order - did the Judge give you any further
order concerning that order?
THE COURT: I think that has been gone int<?, hasn't it?
MR. HAYES: No, sir.
THE COURT: I think that has been gone into about certain
buildings and everything.
MR. HAYES: I am going to ask him this, and then I am
through. I have not covered this with this witness.
THE COURT: All right.
235
q Go ahead.
A He gave me a further order on the following day,
on the 13th day of August.
Q Do you have that order?
A I have a copy of it.
Q vtfill you read it into the record?
MR. MOORE: May I see it?
THE COURT: Yes, let counsel see it.
MR. HAYES: All right. Your Honor may I proceed now?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q Read that into the record, please?
A "Georgia, Laurens County. The Court heretofore
on August 12th, 1965, issued an order closing or authorizing
the closing of Thomas Recreation Center,Glenwood Soda Shop, and
such other places as the Chief of Police, tf. D. Josey, deems
necessary in the interest of public safety and harmony, the
Court having been assured by the owners and operators of said
businesses that they will make a diligent effort to keep crowds
at a minimum, it is ORDERED that said businesses be allowed to
reopened so long as the safety of the general public is maintained.
So ordered, this 13th day of August, 1965. Judge Harold E. Jard,
Judge of Laurens Superior Court."
Q nfhen was that order given to you?
A On the 13th day of August, 1965.
236
MR. HAYES: The witness is with you.
---- CROSS EXAMINATION ........................
BY MR. MOORE:
Q Chief Josey, I want to ask you about this Auxiliary
police. I think your testimony was that the initial members of
the auxiliary police were selected by you, is that right?
A That's right.
Q And that the irftial members selected by you then
selected the others, is that correct?
A There are —
Q (Interposing) Just answer yes or no, and then you
can explain, if you have an explanation.
A Bo, they are not selected by the members.
Q By whom are they selected?
A In a sense they are, so far as the Chief of Police
has the sold reponsibiikity or sole authority in saying that they
are accepted or rejected.
Q
to them?
But the initial members then make suggestions as
A They make recommendations.
Q And you have to pass on them?
A That's right.
237
q And at this time there are approximately twenty
three auxiliary policemen, is that correct?
A Twenty-two, I believe.
q I believe you testified that their uniforms and
equipment are paid for by funds that are contributed by other
persons, is that correct?
A That's correct.
q What organizations contribute to this fund?
A The merchants of the City of Dublin.
q Anyone else?
A Those are the only specific organisations that
I can think of right now.
Q Niw, you initiated this auxiliary police department,
didn't you?
A
Q
A
I did.
That was on your own initiative, is that ^correct?
So to speak. There had been some sketdy plans and
preparations made prior to my becoming Chief in Dublin, but the
matter had just dropped, so to speak.
Q You didn't consult with anyone else before you
started the auxiliary police, did you?
A I did.
q With whom did you consult with?
A The City Manager.
238
Q With the City Manager?
A Yes.
Q With anyone else?
A Several people, many people.
Q What did you do? Did you tell them that you wanted
<fc start an auxiliary police?
A I did.
Q And that is the way it was started?
A Well, after consulting and talking with many of
the people and citizens of Dublin and the officials of that city,
so to speak.
Q And they were put on duty in March of 1965?
A No, their training program began in 1965.
Q When were they sworn in?
A I believe their training program began in May
of 1964.
Q And then when were they sworn in?
A They were sworn in, I don't remember the exact date.
The Court records will show.
Q Was it in 1964 or in 1965?
A 1964.
Q There was no ;emergency in Dublin at that time,
was there?
A None that I know of.
229
Q Who paid for their training?
A You mean who the instructors were paid by, or paid
tiie salaries of the instructors?
A Who paid for the training of these special police
officers?
A There was no charge for the training. The salaries
of the instructors were paid by the various departments that they
worked for.
Q 1 didn't understand that. What departments did
they work for?
A Some for the State of Georgia, and some for the
United States Government.
Q You mean the United States Government paid for
toe training of auxiliary police for the City of Dublin?
A They have, yes. They paid instructors' salaries
who instruct policemen or reserve policemen or deputy sheriffs
in police work.
Q Is this some kind of a special grant?
A Not that I know of.
Q What department of the United States pays for the
training of the auxiliary police?
A I didn't say any department paid for the training.
They paid the salaries of the instructors.
Q You mean the instructors are employed Iunp by the
United States Government?
240
A Various governments, various branches of the law
enforcement.
Q And they work in their full time capacity and are
paid a salary, is tht correct?
A I presume they are paid a salary.
Q You don't mean by your testimony that they are
paid a separate and independent salary for instructing the auxiliary
policemen, do you?
A No.
q Then the instructions were given free?, is that
aorrect?
A That's correct.
Q Now, I believe you testified or rather you
didn',t intend to testify that you were out at the Glenwood Soda
Shop — pardon me, not at the Glenwood Soda Shop, but at the Todd
Service Station on August 12th, did you?
A I was in thet£ neighborhood, yes.
Q Were you at the service station?
A I could haee been.
Q Do you know whether or not you were there?
A I am pretty sure I was at Todd's Service Station
on August 12th, August 10th, August 13th, August 14th. I am pretty
sure I was, or in that general neighborhood.
Q Now, you testified earlier on direct examination
241
that you stood upon a block at the intersection of Glenwood and
Warbash Avenue, is that correct?
A 1 did.
Q On the night of August 11th, 1965, is that correct?
A That's right.
Q Would you take this plan and draw an "X" mark on
Plaintiff's Exhibit "P-2"., indicating and showing where you
stood?
A Right here.
Q Let the record show that the witness, Defendant
Josey, has drawn an "X" mark at the intersection of Glenwood and
Warbash Avenue on the south side. Is that correct?
A On the south side cf what?
Q The south side of the intersection of Glenwood
and Warbash Avenue on the corner where the Sinclair Service
Station is?
A That's right.
Q All right. Now, is it your testimony that you stood
at that intersection where this block was throughout the evening?
A No, it isn't.
Q Then did I misunderstand your testimony to the
effect that you stood there from 8:00 o'clock until approximately
9:30?
A You did.
242
Q Is that a correct understanding?
A No, it is not.
Q Well, what was your testimony in that regard?
A I testified that I stood on that block and used
this fog horn and addressed this crowd of people that had gathered
in that area on the streets and side walks and in the streets.
Q How long did you stand on the block?
A I don't know exactly.
Q Well, approximately how long?
A Well, approximately ten or fifteen minutes.
Q So, you were not continuously nn the block from
the time you first arrived at the station until you went down to
the Scope office?
A No, I wasn't. I was in that m immediate are?,
though.
Q You were moving around in the service station
and on the street?
A I was supervising my policemen in carrying out
their duties.
Q My question was you moving about in the area?
A I am sure I was, and I am sure this necessitated
my carrying out my duties.
Q Now, approximately, how wide is Glenwood at or near
tthe intersection of Warbash?
A I don't know how wide it is.
243
Q Would you say it was about fifty feet in all?
A Re-state your question.
Q I am asking you would you say it was fifty feet
or more?
A Where?
Q The width of Glenwood avenue at its interesection
with Warbash?
A No, I wouldn't.
Q Would you say that Glenwood Avenue at or near the
intereection of Warbash is wide enough for three lands of traffic
on each side?
A With cars paralleled parked, it is a two lane road.
Q When you say two lanes, you mean the traffic would
be travelling in two lanes on each side?
A I mean the traffic would be two lanes, one going
north and one going south.
Q If the cars were paralleled - parked?
A It's a two lane road.
Q Is that based upon your best judgment?
A It is.
Q Now, did you cause Lt. DeLoach to go out to the
intereection of Warbash and glenwood Avenue on Monday and measure
the distance across?
A I instructed him to measure the distance there at
Todd's Service Station.
244
S You didn't instruct him to measure the distance
across the street, did you?
A I instructed him to take such measurements as
he deemed necessary.
Q Ail right, did that include the measuring the
width of the street?
A No,it didn't.
Q It did not?
A No.
q But you do testify that is a large street there
at the intersection of Glenwood and Warbash Avenue?
A Large by what comparison?
Q It's a wide street by comparison to the rest of
U. S. 19 on the out skirts of town?
A Well, I would say it is about 44 feet or 46 wide
feet wide possibly.
Q Now, where you were standing at the intersection
of Warbash and Glenwood, the Glenwood Soda Shop is across the
street in a northwestly direction, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q And the Sinclair Service Station is right there
at the intersection on the same side, is that correct?
A That's right.
Q Now, the crowd of people that you say were con-
245
gregated over here at the Glenwood Soda Shop, as shown on
Plaintiff's Exhibit "P-4", these were Negro people, is that
correct?
A Predominately.
Q Right here. This is a Negro neighborhood, isn't
it?
A That's right.
Q You don't normally expect white people to hang
out in a Negro neighborhood, do you?
A Not normally.
Q And with the exception of the Scope work, Dublin
is a normal town?
A So far as I know it is a normal town in most every
respect.
Q Now, here on Warbash Avenue, as shown on Plaintiff's
Exhibit "P-4", Negroes live up and down this avenue, is that
right?
A That's right.
Q As a matter of fact, this whole area in here is
a Negro community, is it not?
A It is.
Q And the same is true for the other side of Glenwood
and Gray, isn't it?
A It is.
246
Q This whole area in here, where the directional
sign is, is a Negro community, isn't it?
A It is.
Q Now, you testified that Negroes were standing
out on Warbash, didn't you?
A I did. Some of them fhree and four feet deep.
Q You didn;t see any white people on Warbash, did
you?
A Not that I recall.
Q As a matter of fact, you couldn't see too weel
at that time of night anyway, could you?
A Judging by what, comparison by what, 12:00 o'clock
in the daytime?
Q Well, I am asking you could you see well at that
time of night?
A I could see well enough to carry out my duties,
if that is what you are asking.
Q I am asking you could you see well enough to
define people?
A I could.
Q And by what illumination of light did you observe
these people?
A
Q
Possibly from street lights.
Was there a street light?
247
Q Will you note on Plaintiff's Exhibit YP-4" where
the street light is on the intersection of Glenwood and Warbash
Avenue? Would you put an "X" there?
A Right about here. I am not exactly sure where
the light is. If you have a photograph of this area and if there
is a light in the area, I will identify it.
Q I am just asking you on the basis of your recol
lection, can you indicate where the source of light was?
A I won't attempt to indicate it on this sketch.
If you have a photograph of the area and if there is a li&ht
there I will be glad to identify it for you.
Q Yqu can't independently identify it?
A I am sure there are several lights in the area.
Q But you can't recall?
A The spedrifications, no.
Q That's right. As a matter of fact, you didn't
pay any attention to the lights the night you were out there,
did you?
A I don't suppose I had any particular reason to pay
any attention to the lights as to where they are located and so
forth.
Q All right. Now, there were some white people near
the Sinclair Station, weren't they?
A As far as I know,there was.
248
Q They were just milling around in the station,
weren't they?
A There was some in the sta tion and there were
some in front of the station.
Q When you say in the station, you mean inside the
station itself?
A Yes, that's right.
Q And there was some out in the area where the gas
pumps were?
A There were.
Q Is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q And they were mingling around, weren't they?
A I suppose so.
Q Now, you knew that these white people didn't
live in this area, didn't you?
A I am pretty sure they don't live in that immediate
area.
Q You knew that they were not there purchasing any
gas, didn't you?
A No, I didn't.
^ Did you make an investigation to find out what
the white people were doing there?
A There were.
Q So, the business was being operated normally,
is that correct?
A Well, it was being operated.
Q Now,you arrived there about 8:30, isn't that correct?
A Somewhere in that general time area, yes.
Q Would it be before 8:30 or after 8:30?
A It could have possibly been a little prior to
8:30.
Q And it could ;have been eight o'clock?
A No, I don't think it was exactly eight o'clock.
Q Now, when you first arrived you had some kind of
a conversation with an officer Horton?
A Sergeant Glenn Harden.
Q How do you spell that?
A H A R D E N . (Spelling)
Q You don;t have an officer jHorton on your force,
do you?
A No.
Q You have a Harden?
A Harden. (Spelling)
Q And you had some kind of a conversation with him?
A I did.
Q And according to that conversation, or according
to your testimony yesterday it took about ten minutes to talk to him
249
A There were some purchasing gas.
250
A
Q
or was at some
A
parked my car
Q
A
Q
station?
A
Q
pumps were?
A
and Warbash.
I had quite a discussion with him.
And at that time, was he over at the Service Station
place else along the avenue?
He was at the sevice station. When I drove up I
near that service station
Ddd you park it inside the service station?
W|iat?
I say, did you park your car inside the service
No, I didn't park it inside the building.
Did you park it inside the station where the
I parked it near the corner up there, at Glenwood
Q Was that where the seriice station is?
A Yes.
Q Is that in the perimeter where the station
fecilities are,for pumping gas?
A Yes, on the property of the servicd station.
Q All right, will you place a "P" on Plaintiff's
Exhibit "P-4" where your car was parked?
A 1 parked right in this general area here.
Q Let the record x show that tjhe witness has placed
a "P" on Plaintiff's Exhibit "p-4" where his car was parked. Now,
where was Sergeant Harden's car parked?
251
A It was parked further down Warbash, I believe.
Q Would you put an "H" where you recollect Sergeant
Harden’s car having been parked?
A Somewhere in this area.
Q Will the record show that the witness has placed an
"H" on Plaintiff's Exhibit Mp-4" showing where Sergeant Harden's
car was parked. Now, was there any other police car at the scene?
A I believe there was.
Q All right, were there more than one?
A Yes.
Q Do you have any independent recollection as to
where those cars were parked?
A No, I don't.
Q You don't have any independent recollection, do
you?
A No, I couldn't say exactly where these cars were
parked, the exact location on this sketch.
Q Now, were there any auxiliary policemen present
on the scene this evening?
A Not when I arrived.
Q Did you then summon some auxiliary policemen to
the scene?
A I did. I had them summonsed to the station house.
Q To the station house?
A Yes.
252
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
police cars.
Q
they parked?
A
Q
Did they come to the ;scene at Glenwood and Warbash?
Later on they did.
Approximately what time was that?
Approxibmafeely around 9:00 o'clock.
Did they come in cars?
They probably came in cars and probably came in
Police cars. Do you have any recollection of where
No, I don't.
Do you know whether or not they parked on Glenwood
or one of the
A (interposing) No, I dont.
Q You don't remember. But you do remember them
driving up to the scene, is that correct?
A I remember them being on the scene. I don't remember
them driving up to the scene.
Q All right. You did not keep your eyes on the
policemen all the time they were there and at the time they
arrived, is that correct?
A While they were in the area, I did.
Q And how many auxiliary policemen did you summons?
A When I arrived on the scene I looked the situation
over and it seem tobe getting out of hand, it seem to be reaching
a peak where most anything could happen, there were people in the
252
streets on Glenwood, and --
Q (Interposing) I want to know how many policemen
did you summons there?
A I radioed to the dispatcher and asked him to call
all policemen at the statio house and all policemen on duty.
Q And how many was that?
A I have a total of nineteen <?n the Dublin Police
Department, and I also advised him to call the reserve police.
Q Then you had a contingency of 41 policemen, is
that correct?
A If they all had arrived, I would have, provided
they all arrived, which they didn't.
Q Do you know whether all of them arrived or not?
A I do.
Q Did they all arrived?
A They did not.
Q How many did arrive?
A Approximately seven.
Q Approximately seven in addition to the eight that
were already there?
A Yes.
Q So you had a total of fifteen policemen there
on duty, is thht correct?
A It what specific time?
253
Q At about nine o'clock?
A About 9:00 or 9:30 there were probably fifteen
on duty.
^ Were they fulled armed?
A They were fully armed and under co}.or of the
Police Department.
Q That is, they were dressed in police uniform?
A Yes, sir.
Q Does that jnclude the auxiliary police also?
A It does.
Q Now, earlier in the day of August 11th, you had
been out to Todd's station, had you not?
A Yes, I had.
Q And it was at that time that you had - rilets call
them horses, or barricades - is that right?
A That's right.
Q You had them put up?
A Yes.
Q And you had one of the drive ways to the service
station blckaded, is that right?
A It was already blockaded.
Q 1 bean barricaded?
A I erected the barricades to prevent these people
from being run over by the customers trying to come in and out
the traffic in general.
254
Q All right, would you draw a circle or a line here
indicating on Plaintiff's Exhibit "P-4" wherein you put up the
barricades?
A Where is the gas pump?
Q Well, just indicate generally where you put the
barricades?
A I will in relation to the gas pump.
Q Could you indicate where the gas pump is?
A This is your map, suppose you indicate it.
Q I am doing the questioning.
A I will show you, generally, wherethe barrixages
were in relation to where the gas pumps were. There is no building
on this sketch.
Where the barricades were?
A The barricade was on the Glenwood side.
Q On the Glenwood side closer to Warbash, is that
right?
A Yes, on the Glenwood side of the service station.
Q And when you put up the barricades, did you intend
that the pickets continue to picket in that area?
A Did I intend for them to?
Q That's right?
A Not necessarily.
Q You didn;t intend for the pickets to lea ve, did
you?
255
A I didnjt intend for them to do anything. It was not
ny intention for them to be there in the beginning.
Q Well, you put up the barricade, didn't you?
A I did.
Q Your testimony is that you put up the barricades
to keep them from being run over?
A I did.
Q All right, so, you intended for the pickets to
stayf there, didn't you? Strike that. You barricaded that area
in order that the pickets could picket in that area, is that
right?
A That's right.
Q And when you arrived at 8:30 in the evening, the
pickets ;were ^picketing in that area, weren't they?
A They were.
Q That's right.
A In that entire area.
Q Now, I believe you testified that about nine o'clock
you had to make some arrests?
A I did, somewhere in that time.
Q Now, on the night of August 11th, 1965, you arrested
a total of 52 people, didn't you?
A I believe that's correct. I had it done.
Q And you had some of the arrested near the inter-
256
section of Glenwood and Warbash and the others were arrested at
the Scope office about 700 yards down the street?
A Yes, that's right, about 700 feet.
Q About 700 feet?
A Yes.
Q Now, did you arrest everybody at the SCOPE Office?
A I don't know for sure.
Q Would it be your testimony that you arrested most
of the people at the SCOPE Office?
A It would.
Q Would that be at least 90 percent of the people
that was up there?
A At that time.
THE COURT: Anything more for this witness?
HR. MOORE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Well, lets get along with it. You all have
just been dealing with irrelevant testimony all the afternoon,
and that applies to both sides. A lot of it has not been relevant.
MR. MOORE: Would you mark this Plaintiff's Exhibit "P-5"
and this one Plaintiff's Exhibit "P-6"?
(NOTE: Accordingly, same were then marked Plaintiff's
Exhibits "P-5 and P-6", respectfully.
Q Did you arrest Linda DeNotie?
A I did.
257
Q You arrested her yourself?
A I did. I remember taking this person by the arm
and taking her out to the patrol car. I am sure I turned her over
to another officer to put her in the patrol and take her to the
county jail.
q You arrested her from inside the Scope office?
A Yes.
Q Did you make out the ticket for the arrest of
Linda DeNotie?
A No.
Q Do you know who did?
A I could look at my records and maybe tell you.
Q Do you --
THE REPORTER: (Interposing) Spell that name.
MR. MOORE: flonati. (Spelling)
Q Do you have a police officer on your force by the
name of Orr?
A No.
Q I show you plaintiff’s exhibit "P-5" and ask you
if you recognize it?
A It is a copy of a summons to Recorder's court of
the City of Dublin.
Q It is issued to whom?
A Linda Denati.
258
Q Would you examine it to ascertain who was the
ssiuing officer?
A Lt. DeLoach wss the issuing officer.
Q Does his name appear on that?
A No, it doesn't.
Q It says it was issued by Officer Ott, doesn't it?
A If you are referring to who the arrest made by
it indicates that all on duty policemen were participating in
the arrest.
Q So, the term "all" refers to all police officers
on duty at the place of arrest, is that right?
THE COURT: Is that "ALL"? (Spelling)
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: I thought it was "ORR".
Q But you in fact arrested her?
A I did.
Q Did you have any discussion with Lt.DeLoach after
you arrested Linda Denati?
A Not that I can recall immediately.
Q Where were these tickets drawn up?
A They were drawn up at the county jail in the process
of getting these subjects identified and booked, so to speak.
t
Q Were you present atttf the county jail?
A No, I wasn't. I was in this area where this trouble
was.
Q Was Lt. DeLoach in that area?
A He was at the very beginning.
Q Was he there at the time that Linda Donatt was
arrested?
A I don't know.
Q Did you have any conversation with Lt.DeLoach prior
to the time that Miss Donati was booked?
A Many conversations. Just when do you mean?
Q Between the time you arrested defendant,Donati --
A (Interposing) No.
Q You did not?
A No.
THE COURT: You know, I don't like to interrupt counsel.
I just can't see the relevancy of all of this, about this woman
being put in jail, and the conversations between the officers at
that time. I just can't see the relevancy. I have sit idely by
all day. I have just sit here all day wondering what its relevancy
was. To my mind, there has been so much irrelevant testimony.
MR. MOORE: Well, I would like to push on, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I wish you would come down here sometime when
I am trying a law case. Of course, this is a law case too, but
the lawyers in this section are good lawyers and they stick to the
issue.
Q I will show you Plaintiff's Exhibit "P-6" --
259
260
THE COURT: Now, wait a minute, Is all of this relevant?
On what basis is all of this relevant?
MR. MOORE: Well, Your Honor, I think it is relevant
as to how the arrest was made and the circumstances leading to
the charges that were brought against the defendant. It certainly
has certain impeaching valika to it , Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, I just can't see where all of this
is relevant to the issues as outlined in your petition.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I think we have made specific
allegations that make it relevant?
THE COURT: What, for instance?
MR. MOORE: In the removal petition there are certain
allegations respecting---
THE COURT: (Interposing) What, for instance?
MR. MOORE: I think it is paragraph seven.
THE COURT: Well, what is it?
MR. MOORE: The one fchat different colored slips were
used for different arrestees, and that they were issued by
fictitious persons.
THE COURT: Well, I just don't want you all -- you see,
we have been here today and yesterday, two days, and have only
examined tjfco or three fitnesses. How many have you examined?
MR. MOORE: Approximately five.
THE COURT: Five.
261
THE COURT: And then the Judge, and this gentlemen here,
and the Judge of the Recorder's Court, who else have we had?
MR. MOORE: Mr. Hayes.
THE COURT: Go ahead. I am not trying to keep you from
putting in your testimony. All I want is relevant testimony.
Q Do you recognize this as being a copy of the charges
against Bernice Turner?
A It is.
Q And was it issued by the Police Department?
A It was.
Q Was it issued by an officer named "All Officers"?
A It was.
Q Is that a pink slip?
A It is.
Q Is the other one, Plaintiff's Exhibit "P-5" a
yellow slip?
MR. MOORE: Pardon me. I was counting him twice.
A It is.
THE COURT: What is the difference if the offense is on
a yellow slip, if one is on the yellow slip and one is on a pink
slip?
THE WITNESS: None whatsoever.
THE COURT: There is no difference?
THE WITNESS: There are three copies of a summons in a
Dublin Police Department citation book. The original is given to
262
the office. One of the other copies is given to the defendant,
and the other one remains in the officer's book for his record.
THE COURT: That is the reason for the three different
copies?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Well, there are three different
ones. The printers print them different colors for their own
purposes, not for any purpose of the Police Department.
MR. MOORE: We offer these in evidence*
THE COURT: All right, no objections, are there?
MR. HAYES: No, sir.
TH E COURT: All right, they are admitted without object
ion. Anything else for this witness?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir.
Q Now, did you, yourself, arrest Reuben Gamble?
A No, I didn't.
Q Did you direct that he be arrested?
A Yes, 1 did.
Q You directed that he be arrested for jumping up
and down, is that correct?
A Well, no, that is not correct.
Q That isn't correct?
A No.
THE COURT: State just why he was arrested?
THE WITNESS: He was arrested because he was in this crowd
blocking the side walks and was a direct participant.
263
Q Now, you knew Reuben Gamble, didn’t you?
A I know him by sight.
Q And you know him by reputation ?
A What called my attention to him, if you mean jumping
up and down, he was kind of jumping up and down and hollowing at
these other Niggers to stay there and defy the law.
Q That's right. Niggers. N I G G £ R S. (Spelling)
Is that right?
MR. HAYES : He didn't say that, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: I am not sure how it is spelled.
MR. MOORE: That is what he said.
THE COURT: All right, lets get onto something else.
QR. MOORE: I just wanted to have it clear as to what
his reference is.
Q Now, you knew Reuben Gamble as being a member of
the NAACP, didn't you?
A Yes, I did.
Q You knew that at the time he was arrested, didn't
you?
A As far as Knowing he was a member, I heard that
he was.
Q And you knww that he ^was active in civil rights
demonstrations, didn't you?
A Yes.
264
Q In Dublin?
A Yes.
Q Now, was he the first person arrested?
A No.
Q Now, the first people that were arrested were the
pickets there in front of the service station, is that right?
A They were among the first ones.
Q The pickets?
A They were among the first.
Q All right. Now, all the persons who were picketing
Todd's Service Station on August 11th, U65, when you gave your
order to disperse, were arrested?
A No.
Q Most of them were? Most all of those were arrested,
weren't they?
A I wouldn't know. There were only 52 j'arrested and
on many occasions on August 11th, 1965, there were as many as 60
picketing the service station alone.
Q But all of them were arrested there at the time
you gave your odder?
A No.
Q
A We arrested what did not move on out of the area.
Q
Did you arrest most of them?
We arrested what did not move on out of the area.
Now, these were pickets, right?
265
A They were carrying signs and marching up and down
in front of Todd's Service Station and blocking the side walks
and entrances.
q You had people carrying signs arrested?
A Some of them were w arrested.
q Now, you didn't arrest any of the white people who
were standing in the station, did you?
A No, not that I recall.
q And you didn't make the white people who were
standing in the station move on, did you?
A I did.
q That was when the station closed at 9:00 o'clock,
wasn't it?
A No, I was constantly having - my men were having
to have them move on, people who came there, in my opinion, if
amy opinion is any good, for the purpose of causing trouble and
resting an incident.
q You didn't know who those people were, did you?
A Not by names.
Q Do you know them by sight?
A They were people.
q I asked you if you knew them by sight?
A No, not to know their names. They were people that
lived in Laurens County, most of them.
Q Do you know who arrested Robert Wilburn?
266
A Not without looking at my records.
Q You don't have any recollection of that at all,
do you?
A Not specifically, as to a specific officer, no.
Q Do you know who arrested Frank Stanley?
A One of my police officers?
3 YOu don't know which one, do you?
A Not without looking at my records.
Q Do you know who arrested ---
THE COURT: (Interposing) Is all of this material to
this case?
MR. MOORE: I think it is very material.
THE COURT: Why? Tell me why.
MR. MOORE: Well, the witness has testified this morning
that he observed all of these incidents and that he had the
situation constantly ugnder his surveillance and I am asking him
about his knowledge about what his man did.
THE COURT: All right.
Q Do you know who arrested Freddie Pooler?
A Not without looking at my records, but one of my
p olice officers.
Q Now civilians made any arrest that night, did
they?
A No.
267
Q Alfred Thomas?
A He was jarrested by some of the police department.
Q What about Charles Lattimore?
A The answer would be the same.
Q What about Bernice Turner?
A The answer would be the same.
Q Do you know where she was arrested?
A Not without looking at my records. She was arrested
somewhere in the vicinity of Glenwood Avenue.
Q Do you know where Richard Sheffield was arrested?
A He was arrested in that same area.
Q When you testified this morning, you didn't testify
from any notes, did you?
A No, I didn't.
Q You testified from your recollection, didn't you?
A I did.
Q And nothing has occurred between this morning and
now to make your recollection faulty, has there?
A None that I know of.
Q So, when you testified that you observed everything
that went on out there, that was incorrect, wasn't it?
A No, it wasn't.
3}HE COURT: Anything else?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir, just a second.
268
Q Do you know the name of the doctor who trea ted
Carl Rice?
A No, I don't recall his name. I talked to him while
he was on duty at the Laurens County Memorial Hospital.
Q Now, Chief Josey, there were some sheriff's deputies
out at the scene, were there not?
A Thejre were.
Q Were they under your command?
A They were.
Q How were they dressed?
A They were in full uniform.
Q When you say full uniform, fill us in on that,
please?
A
the sheriff's
Q
A
They were in fjll uniform and under full color of
office.
And what color does the Sheriff's Office wear?
They wear brown pants with a green shirt, if it is
of interest.
Q All right.
A And their badges are displayed readily on the left
side of the breast, and they wear hats made of straw or straw
material.
Q All right. How many sheriff's deputies were present
at that time?
A Three.
269
Q And these were in addition to the men you mentioned?
A There weee four.
Q Four deputy sheriffs?
A Yes.
Q Making a total of nineteen officers out there?
A Yes.
THE COURT: I think we have been over that. I am going
to hold both sides down and not have any repetitions.
Q Chief Josey, I believe that you testified earlier
that on August - pardon me, on July 25th, in the afternoon or
morning, you went to the Fisst Baptist Church, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q You did not testify whether you were there on
August 1st?
A I don't think I did.
Q Were you there on August 1st?
A No. I wasn't at the church on August 1st. I didn't
attend the worship services, is that what you mean?
Q Well, that is not your church, is it?
A I have attended church there.
Q Is that where you regularly worship at?
A It is, when I am in Dublin
Q Are you a member of the First Baptist Church?
A I am not.
Q But you regularly attend when you are in Dublin?
270
A I do.
Q Are you familiar with the policies of the First
Baptist Church with respect to receiving mixed groups, are you
not?
A I am not familiar with their policies, not with
all their policies. I have been told that --
THE COURT: (Interposing) I wouldn't say what you have
been told. That would be hearsay evidence.
THE WITNESS: I have not been shown anything concerning
their policies.
Q But you know, as a matter of your own investigative
work, that they do not receive mixed groups of Negroes and Whites?
A I have been told they would not receive them.
THE COURT: That is hearsay. Lets get down to the issue.
Q Do you sympathize with that policy?
THE COURT: Now, listen, that is totally irrelevant. I
think you will agree with me on that.
MR. MOORE: I will have to disagree with you,Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, I am the Judge. I think I am.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, shall I construe ;that to mean
that the witness should not answer that question?
THE COURT: Yes. That is not an issue in this case.
Q Chief Josey, you set bail for the persons who
were arrested on August 11th, 1965, didn't you?
271
day.
was arrested?
A
Q
offenses, is
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
are?
I believe they were set in a hearing the following
Now, Reuben Gamble was released the same night he
That's right. I set the bail on Reuben Gamble.
You are the person who usually set bail for city
that correct?
It's under my authority, yes.
What is the usual bail for fighting?
$ 22 . 0 0 .
$22 . 00?
Yes, it depends.
It depends on how serious theinjury is, or injuries
A It depends on what the Chief of Police deems
adequate and necessary.
Q Is that in all related to persons who are involved?
A It is all related to the persons involved. In what
respect do you mean related?
Q Well, let me ask you this question
A (interposing) As to where they live and so forth?
Q Does it have anything to do with the extent of
injury or injuries inflicted as a result of fighting?
A It probably would if I had reason to suspect that
the person engaged in the fight that more serious charges would
grow out of it, such as a murder charge.
Q What about an assault and battery?
A It would be as I deem or thought necessary.
Q What about an assault with intent to murder?
THE COURT: I think he testified that all of those came
under his jurisdiction, that it was discretionary with him, is
that not correct?
THE WITNESS: That is correct, up to $300.00.
Q Now, what is your understanding of fighting?
A Repeat your question.
Q What is your understanding of fighting?
THE COURT: What do you mean, relative to what?
MR. MOORE: Well, he said that he /arrested some one and
charged them with disorderly conduct, fighting and --
THE WITNESS: (Interposing) In my opinion, fighting is
disorderly conduct. Is thatwhat you mean?
Q Is that what you mean?
A Fighting, in my opinion, is disorderly conduct.
Q Then any irregular conduct would be fighting tn so
far as you are concerned?
A Not necessary.
The Court; Now, listen. What has that got to do with
this case?
MR. MOORE: Well, Your Honor, I think it is very plain
273
as to the significance of the testimony. I won't press it any
further.
THE COURT: No, if you think it is relevant, you tell
me why you think it is relevant, and if I think it is relevant
I will let you proceed. The definition of fighting, I just can't
get all of this. All I want is relevant testimony, any relevant
testimony that you want in.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I think I can conclude by asking
just one more question.
THE COURT: All right, I will let you ask the one more
question then, go ahead.
Q Chief Josey, you don't have any other definition
of fighting, do you?
A That depends on what type of fighting. There are
many definitions of fighting. Prize fighting. What do you have
in mind?
Q A type of fighting for which you would make an
arrest?
THE COURT: Didn't he say disorderly conduct?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
MR. MOORE: I am just asking him if that is an exclusive
definition, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: An exclusive definition, one and only
definition of fighting?
Q That you have?
274
A No.
Q You have others?
A There are many others.
Q I mean do you have others?
A Yes, I have many others.
Q Ones for which you make arrest?
A If the occasion arose, I would.
MR. MOORE: I don;t have any other questions.
THE COURT: Do you haee any others?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
................... REDIRECT EXAMINATION .....................
BY MR. HAYES:
Q Chief Josey, they charge in their removal petition
that a yelbw copy is issued, talking about summons, that yellow
copies are issued to white offenders and pink copies to Negroes,
is that true?
THE COURT: He has testified to that. He said that it
was not true, that he had three, one for three different parties.
He has already testified to that.
MR. HAYES: Well, I heard him, Judge, but I wanted to be
sure you had.
THE COURT: Well, I am not asleep.
275
MR. HAYES: I know that, Judge.
Q Now, these defendants that were arrested on the
11th of August, let me ask you if you assessed a bond for them,
the 11th of August, 1965? You remember him asking you that?
A I do.
Q Now, in fact, those defendants weee released without
bond, were they not?
A They were, the most of them,
Q And they were released at their request?
A That's right.
MR. MOORE: I object to that,Your Honor. He can't
lead his witness that way.
THE COURT: Well, he has already testified to that
this morning.
MR. MOORE: He can't impeach his own witness.
MR. HAYES: I am not trying to impeach my own witness,
and I haven't asked a question to impeach my own witness.
THE COURT: Now, listen. I think all of that was gone
into this morning.
MR. HAYES: This question I was fixing to ask him,wasn't,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
Q Now, the very first one we called for Recorder's
Court that morning for trial, didn't show up, did he?
276
A He did not.
MR. MOORE: I object to that, Your Honor.
THE COURT: On what grounds?
MR. MOORE: It is a leading question.
THE COURT: Well, I don't know whether it is leading
or not.
MR. HAYES: Come down, Chief.
THE COURT: You may go down.
MR. MOORE: I have just one question, Your Honor.
.................. RECROSS EXAMINATION .....................
BY MR. MOORE:
Q Other than Reuben Gamble and Bernice Turner, all
of the persons whom you arrested on August 11th, 1965, stayed
in jail until that next Friday the 13th, didn't they?
A I believe they did.
Q You know they did, don't you?
A I am pretty suee they did.
THE COURT: Now, that's all irregular. One hops up
and then another one hops up. I have never seen anything like this
in court before.
MR. HAYES: Come down, Mr. Josey.
THE COURT: All right. You may go down, Chief.
277
DR. STANLEY R. HAHN, SWORN FOR THE DEFENDANTS, TESTIFIED.
ON DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HAYES:
Q State your name, please?
A Stanley R. Hahn.
Q What is your profession?
A Minister of the Gospel.
Q Where are you peesently ministering, Dr. Hahn?
A I am Pastor of the First Baptist Church of Dublin,
Georgia.
where is
Q Where is that located?
A 405 Bellevue Avenue, Dublin, Georgia.
Q With reference to the City Hall of Dublin, Georgia,
this church located?
A Across the street.
Q How long have you been at that ministry?
A Five days from now will be five years.
Q And where were you located before that time?
A South Side Estates Baptist Church, Jacksonville,
Florida.
Q And how long were you there?
A Three and a half years.
Q Do you recall an incident or incidents that have
occurred at the First Baptist Church on Belleveue Avenue in the
past two months?
278
A Yes.
Q Concerning civil rights demonstrations?
A I do.
Q Will you relate, in your own words to the court,
what you observed of your own knowledge?
A There were four incidents within three Sundays
in which we were approached with a group, which we ghought were
agitators.
MR. MOORE: I bbject to that.
THE COURT: He said what he thought. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: We were told they intended to enter our
church. We being under the opinion that they were not there to
worship turned them away, or told them that they could not enter
our church. They returned and said they were going to enter and
the answer given the second time was that they were not. They
came into our vestibule and close enough to the service of worship
going on already inside to cause disrruption of the service.
MR. MOORE: I object to that,Your Honor.
THE COURT: I overrule your objection. This man would
knw, if anybody would, whether they were disturbing the worship
or not. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: Did you agree with the objection, Judge?
THE COURT: No, he objected and I overruled the objtection,
and so you go ahead.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. Being in the pulpit I felt
279
that I was in a position to observe. I do not preach with notes,
and therefore I can observe the reaction of my congregation. They
were visibly disturbed, and their attention was taken from me
several times by what was going on in the vestibule over a period
of many minutes on that first occasion. On another occasion the
same thing took place. This time they did not come into the
vestibule.
MR. MOORE: I want to move to strike the witness' answer
unless he can specify the occasion.
THE COURT: I overrulethi motion. Let him get through
and then you can cross examine him on it.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, we should have some guide lines
as to when these things happened.
THE COURT: As I recall, he said it happened on three
or four occasions, is that right?
THE WITNESS: Four occasions on the first three Sundays
in July, if you want to be specific, the morning and evening
worship service on the Third Sunday in July, and on this particular
occasion on the third Sunday in July they finally removed across
the street by the City Hall. In consequence of what occurred
across the street I received a letter from the minister, the young
white man, who is associated with this group. I do not know him
personally, but the name the minister gave to me was Max Rice,
and I have the letter here as evidence, if the Cgurt wishes it.
280
This young man stated that he was beaten up when trying to enter
our church. This is a lie. He was hit by some one across the
street, and the implication was that it was a member of our church.
MR. MOORE: I object to the word '•implication".
THE COURT: It is kinda technical on this, preacher.
I have got a son that is a preacher. You have to go by rules of
evidence, of course. //hat somebody said to you or wrote to you
or anything like that would be hearsay. Just tell what you know
of your own knowledge.
THE WITNESS: Well, he said in the letter that the young
man called him and said he was beaten up when he was trying to
enter our church.
MR. MOORE: I object to that, Your Honor. I am confused
now.
THE COURT: I think you are.
MR. MOORE: He said that somebody called up.
THE WITNESS: Max Rice called his minister in Rochester,
Michigan, and said that he was beaten up while trying to enter our
church.
MR. MOORE: I wish opposing counsel would clear this
up. I don't want any railroading evidence to go in.
THE COURT: Well, I am sure that I don't.
MR. MOORE: I want to know who is saying what.
THE COURT: Well, as I understand it, and see if I am
correct now. He said that he got a letter from this young man's
281
preacher to you?
THE WITNESS: That's correct.
THE COURT: Making certain statements that you say are
not true?
THE WITNESS: That's correct.
MR. MOORE: I object to that,Your Honor. That is hearsay.
THE COURT:Did you say you have gotthe letter?
THE WITNESS: I have got the letter.
MR. MOORE: You say you can produce the letter?
MR. HAYES: We will not pursue that any further, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: All right, he says he will not pursue it
any further. All right.
Q Now. Dr. Hahn, can you give me the dates that these
incidents occurred at the church?
A Yes, I can. Mr. Hayes, I had one other thing to say
about that evening.
Q All right, sir, I will get to it. Give the first
date first?
A July 4th was the first Sunday.
Q Of 1965?
A Of 1965, yes, sir.
Q Now, relate to the court what took place on that
date that you know of your own knowledge?
282
A Two of my men came to me after the service and
described the cause of the disturbance.
MR. MOORE: I object to that, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Doctor, I hate |ito interrupt you, but you see
anything that anybody told you is illegal testimony. In ohher
words, that would be what we call hearsay evidence, and that is
what he is objecting jto, to what somebody told you occurred.
You can't go into what they told you. You can testify to anything
you know yourself, but not what anybody told youj you can't
testify to that because you would not know of your own knowledge.
Uust remember that. It is his privilege to object to hearsay
evidence and that evidence was hearsay.
THE COURT: Well, I saw the disturbance in the congre
gation myself, and as the doors were being opened, as the ushers
went back and forth into the disturbance --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I object to that, Your Honor,
as it is not responsive to any question that has been asked him.
MR. HAYES: Yes, it is, too.
THE COURT: Yes, it is. It is in responsive to the
question he asked him as to what he saw himself. He is testifying
to what he personally saw himself on this occasion and that is
certainly admissible and I am admitting it.
MR. MOORE: I object to it because the witness' answer
was not in response to any question.
THE COURT: 'What question did you propound to him?
283
MR. MOORE: I haven't propounded any question.
THE COURT: I know you haven't. I can see that. I know
that, although you don't seem to agree with it. Well, what was
the question?
MR. HAYES: I asked him first to give me the first date
that the incident occurred.
THE WITNESS: July 4th, 1965.
MR. HAYES: Then I asked him to tell you what he knows
of his own knowledge as to what happened on that date?
THE COURT: Then I say that is admissible, what you
aw yourself.
THE WITNESS: That was the evening on which I noticed my
congregation visibly upset apparently by something that was going
on in the vestibule.
MR. MOORE: I object to what was going on in the vestibule.
He can testify that his congregation was upset.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: As the doors were opendd by the ushers as
they went in and out, which is very abnormal, after the service
has begun, I could see members of the Negro Race in the vestibule.
iiiQ Wgat were they doing?
A First hand evidence. I can not give you any as it
would be objected to.
Q Did you see anything else on that date?
A I saw nothing else.
Q Now, what is the next date that these incidents
occurred?
A I did not see anything myself the second Sunday,
but the agitation continued outside.
MR. MOORE: I move to strike that.
THE COURT: Overrule your objection. The objection is
overruled, go ahead.
MR. MOORE: He testified that he didn't see anything.
THE COURT: He said that there was some disturbance on
he outside, that he heard it.
THE WITNESS: I heard it.
THE COURT: But he said he didn|t know what it was.
Didn't you say you saw some colored people on the outside, or did
jou not on this particular occasion?
THE WITNESS: I saw them before the service. I came out
briefly and saw them, and that is all.
THE COURT: All right.
Q What did you hear?
MR. MOORE: I object to that, Your Honor.
THE COURT: What you heard on the outside in the commotion,
or what did you say?
MR. MOORE: He can'tlead his own witness.
MR. HAYES: I am not leading him. He said he heard it.
284
THE COURT: Go ahead.
285
MR. HAYES: He said that he saw them outside before the
church and then he said he heard disturbance on the outside. I
don't see how it is leading when I ask him "What did you hear?"
THE COURT: I think that's all right.
MR MOORE: We submit, Your Honor, that that is illegal
testimony.
THE COURT: I have admitted, and so please do not talk
so much when I am ruling. Go ahead.
Q What did you hear, Preacher?
A I heard loud voices, which is not normal before
our services of worship.
MR. MOORE: I object to that, Your Honor, and move that
it be stricken.
THE COURT: Overruled, Sit do wn.
Q Did these voices you heard tend to disturb your
worship?
MR. MOORE: I object to that, Your Honor, on the ground
that it is a leading question.
THE COURT: I don't think that is leading. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: On either that evening, or the next Sunday
morning, which was the third Sunday morning, and I don't think a
witness is expected to remember the exact date of everything, because
in either case it is a service of worship.
MR. MOORE: I move to strike all of that, Your Honor, it
is not in response to the question.
286
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: The Chief of Police came into my study,
and he said "Pastor" ---
THE COURT: (Interposing) Don't go into what the Chief
of Police said. You see, thatwould be hearsay what he told you.
THE WITNESS: I was going to give h*im some instructions
as to what the wishes of our church would be in the matter.
THE COURT: I understand that, but I don't think that
would be admissible.
THE WITNESS: All right. That evening the incident, which
has been in the papers, took place across the street from our
church. I went out before church service began and saw a crowd
milling in front of my church composed of white and Negroes and
after the service began, I did not know what was going on outside
until I got up to preach my sermon, I heard this terrible noise
from across the street, shouting and cheering noise, and it was
such that it was very difficult for me to begin preaching my
sermon, and certainly my Divine worship was disturbed.
MR. MOORE: I object to that, Your Honor, that is a
conclusion of the witness.
THE COURT: I guess a preacher would know when his
services were disturbed.
MR. MOORE: He can testify to that, Your Honor, but he
cannot testify to a legal conclusion.
THE COURT: Wj|at was a legal conclusion?
287
MR. MOORE: He said that he knows definitely that his
Divine worship was disturbed.
THE COURT: Who would know better?
MR. MOORE: I think that the highest and best evidence
would be the inferences which the evidence would permit.
THE COURT: Well, I overrule your objection. You may
proceed.
THE WITNESS: That's all I have, sir.
Q Now, do you know of your own knowledge, or did
you observe anything other than what you have testified to in
this case?
A I saw the City Police at work several times, not
only in the terms of the services of worship but also in terms
of picketing in the City of Dublin
Q Whflt did you see?
A I saw the police standing --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I object to that and move
to strike the testimony unless the witness can pinpoint the time.
THE COURT: Well, when you get him on cross you can
ask him those questions.
Q What did you see?
A The Fourth Sunday morning in July, immediately
after worship service, wondering why we had no agitation that
morning, I came out of the building, after greeting the members,
and looked across at the City Hall and noticed that people who
288
stated that they were ready to worship on Sunday Morning instead
at the hour of worship were carrying placards, and picketing City
Hall. I walkdd across the street and greeted several of the
officers of the law. They were standing there in a very quite
orderly manner as they hdd on anji occasion that I had seen them
ready to perform their duties to protect the rights of all citi
zens .
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I would like to ask that Mr.
Hayes would not stand between his witness and myself.
THE COURT: 1 am sure he didn't intentionally do it.
MR. HAYES: I want him to get the full benefit of this
testimony.
q Go ahead?
A The deacons of nur church met with me and asked
me —
THE COURT: (Interposing) Don't go into that what
the deacons told you, because that would be hearsay. Now, I
don't want to interrupt you. I like to hear you talk.
THE WITNESS: In consequence to this I wrotfe a letter
t o City Hall expressing appreciation for the way the police had
acted throughout the whole situation.
THE COURT: Well, I don't think that would be admissible.
MR. HAYES: He is your witness.
THE COURT: All right.
289
BY MR. MOORE:
Q You say you have been pastor over there at the
First Baptist Church in Dublin for the past four years?
A Yes, approximately.
Q And 360 days, is that right?
A Approximately.
Q That is your tesfiimony, isn't it?
A Yes.
Q Is the First Baptist Church in Dublin a member
of the Souhhern Baptist Association?
A It is.
Q The National Baptist Association?
A No.
Q Now, you have never sworn out a warrant or made
any charges against anyone for disturbing Divine worship, have
you?
A Not yet.
Q But you have not yet?
A I have not. I may.
Q As a matter of fact, you are not a man of a mean
spirit, are you?
A I trust not.
290
Q Now, have you been on vacation this year?
A Yes, just finished another week,
Q Where did you go on vacation?
A I went on vacation last week.
Q The last week in August?
A Yes.
Q what was ^ e date?
THE COURT: What has that got to do with this case?
MR. MORE: I think we can tie it in,Your Honor.
THE COURT: How is that?
MR. MOORE: I think we will be able to tie it in.
THE COURT: Well, be sure and do it.
THE WITNESS: The last Monday morning, the 16th of August,
and came back Monday evening the 23rd of August.
Q That was when you went and returned?
A That's right.
Q Do you remember approaching a group of pickets
about July 4th or July 11th, this year, at your church?
A They were not picketing.
Q Do you remember approaching an integrated group?
A What?
Q I say, do you remember approaching an integrated
group who attempted to worship in your church?
A At a distance. I approached to a distance.
291
Q And do you remember having told them that the
Pastor was out of town and that they couldn't come in now?
Pastor,
church?
A I never jfidid. I could not have, since I am the
Q WHat time do the services start in your church?
A In the evening or the morning?
Q In the evening?
A 8:00 o'clock during the summer hours.
Q And this was summer time?
A Summer time.
Q what time does the morning services start in your
A At 11:00 A. M. sharp.
Q Eleven A. M., sharp?
A Yes.
Q Which service do you start at that time, the
regular worship service?
A The regular worship service.
And what time does the church turn out?
Twelve o'clock or thereabouts.
Is that 12:00 o'clock sharp?
No, ninety nine times out of a hundred it is before
Q
A
Q
A
twelve.
Q How long before twelve?
A Anywhere from five minutes to the hour, up to the
hour.
292
Q It is your testimony, is it not. Rev. Hahn, that
you do not receive any Negro worshipers at your church?
A We have had Negroes to worship in our church
always on a voluntary and friendly basis, but never on a forced
or political basis.
Q You never inquire as to the motives of your white
whrshipers, do you?
A No, I do not.
Q You have never refused to admit white worshipers
unless they were with Negroes because you didn't believe they
came to worship in good faith, is that correct?
A This particular group.
Q I am asking you about your policy in respect to
your white worshipers?
A I have never had the problem myself. Our janitor
has set in our services many times without question.
Q Is he a Negro?
A He is a Negro.
Q Anyone else other than your janitor?
A I have been told that there were many oth ers.
Q They aee not members of your church, are they?
A No.
Q You don't have any plans for having Negro members,
do you?
293
A No present plans, no.
Q Your church would be what they consider a segregated
church, is that correct?
A Yes.
MR. MOORE: No further questions.
THE COURT: All right, you may go down.
MILO TOMLINSON. SWORN FOR THE DEFENDANTS, TESTIFIED.
ON DIRECT EXAMINATION
294
BY MR. HAYES:
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Registrar.
when you say
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Will you state your name?
Milo Tomlinson.
Where do you live?
Route 4, Dublin, Georgia.
Wttat do you do?
Clerk in the Tax Commissioner's Office and Deputy
For what county?
Laurens County.
How long have you been so employed?
Oh, approximately three years.
Are you familiar with the Registrar Records - well,
Registrar Records, what do you mean?
Voting records of Laurens County.
For what?
For state and county elections.
How long did you say you have had this job?
October will be three years, I believe.
As such Registrar, what are your duties?
We accept any Registrant when he comes in, fill out
dhr card for him and put them in the proper files so that the
Registrars can check them for putting them on the books.
295
Q Have you, since you have been in this position,
refused to register any person to vote?
A Yes, sir.
Q How many?
A Oh, eight or ten would be the most, I believe.
Q For what reason?
A Well, one was duly registered to vote in the State
of Florida and the others were felony convictions and on parole.
Q Have you ever refused to register a person because
he was a Negro?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know what percentage of the Negroes are
registered to vote in Laurens County?
MR. MOORE: I object to that unless he puts in what the
total figures are.
THE COURT: I presume he will get to that. You are going
to get to that, are you not?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: I ghought you would.
QR. HAYES: I was asking him what percentage --
THE COURT: (Interposing) I understand.
THE WITNESS: Repeat your question.
MR. HAYES: I don't know as he has that figure.
THE COURT: Well, if he has it, he will have to produce
them.
296
Q Do you know the total percentage of Negroes of
voting age that are now registered to vote in Laurens County,
Georgia?
A No, sir, we don't know what the population is.
It has been five years since the census, and there is no way to
tell today the colored pppulation.
THE COURT: The purpose of his testimony -- let me see
if I get it -- the purpose of his testimony is to show that there
is no discrimination in Negroes voting?
MR. HAYES: That's right.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HAYES: Your witness.
THE COURT: Any questions? All right, lets move along.
It s four o clock. For the benefit of counsel, and I know you
want to know, I have cancelled all of my engagements for tomorrow
and so you can have all day tomorrow.
MR. HAYES: Fine, Judge. I enjoy being in Brunswick.
THE COURT: Well, it is an awful way to show it, but
show it by making haste.
MR. HAYES: May I ask him one more question?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q Do you know the total number of Negro voters regis
tered in Laurens County,Georgia?
A Yes, sir.
297
Q What is that?
A I can give it to you in two figures. The vote
list has been revised and this is a figure, 3448, and this was
approximately April 1st that this list was made up.
Q Of what year?
A 1965, this year, and since that time we have put
on 451 Negro voters.
THE COURT: What does that make a total of?
THE WITNESS: It looks like 3899, I believe.
MR. HAYES: yQuw witness.
THE COURT: Any questions?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir, a couple of questions.
.................. CROSS EXAMINATION ........................
BY MR. MOORE:
Q Do you know the number of Negroes of voting age
in the county?
A The only thing we have on that was a piece in
the paper this week, or last week, I believe it was, in the Macon
paper, giving it for the 1960 census. That is the only thing we
have on it.
Q SFou didn't prepare those figures did you? You
didn't prepare the figures that appeared in the paper?
298
A No, sir. Some syndicated writer out of Macon, in
the Macon Telegraph. It was for the whole state and our county
was in it.
Q Do you keep a separate voting list for Negroes
and whites?
A No, we don't.
Q Then how are you able to ascertain the number of
Negroes and White voters?
A Just simply going through,and for information,
counting them.
Q This is based on an information from a count?
A Yes.
Q How are you able to recognize the ones that are
Negroes and the ones that iare White?
A Well, it shows "race" on the card.
Q Race is on the card?
A That's right.
Q So the voting cards are arranged by Race?
A No.
Q But the race is identified on the card?
A It is on the card.
Q Is this for state and federal elections?
A Statej and county and federal.
MR. MOORE: That's all.
THE COURT: All right, you may go down.
299
MR. MOORE: If it please the Court, I would like to
ask the witness just one other question.
THE COURT: All right, come back just one minute.
Q Mr.Tomlinson, do you know what the white total is?
A White total?
W Yes, sir, for voting?
A It will be in two figures too. There were 12,743,
plus 83.
Q When you say "plus 83", does that mean since April
the 1st?
A That's right.
Q Now, Mr.Tomlinson, are these the ones actually
enrolled? In other words, they are actual voters 12,743?
A Yes, that is registered voters.
Q And that is the white total?
A That's right.
MR. MOORE: That's all.
THE COURT: All right, you may go down. ^ 3
I > ' \ ^
__________________ 1
iT>
W. R. BUSSELL. SWORN FOR THE DEFENDANTS, TESTIFIED.
ON DIRECT EXAMINATION
300
BY MR. HAYES:
Q Will you state your name, pleased
A W. R. Bussell.
Q What is your position ? What do you do?
A I am Sheriff of Laurens County,Georgia.
Q How long have you bean sheriff of Laurens County?
A Since January 1, 1961.
Q What were you previous to that time?
A I was a practicing Veterinarian in the City of
East Dublin, Georgia.
Q How long have you lived in Laurens County,Georgia?
A Since June 30th, 1962.
Q Will you give this court the benefit of your
educational back ground as far as police schools and so forth
are concerned?
A Well, I have attended several police schools that
have been conducted by the Peace Officers' Association of Georgia
I have had the benefit and attended and completed seeeral schools
that have been conducted by the FBI, and other short courses,
specialized courses, in finger printing and other investigative
techniques.
Q Are you familiar with a Civil Rights demonstration
301
march that was held in Dublin,Georgia, on the 4th day of Mqrch
1965? Excuse me, I mean on the 4th day of August, 1965?
A I am.
q Are you familiar with the police protection given
this march?
A Yes.
q State what you know about this police protection
to the court?
A Shortly prior to the time that the march took place
I was advised by the City Manager of the City of Dublin that the
March was going to take place on the date stated by you, and it
was requested that 1 come to the City Hall of the City of Dublin
aid meet with a group of other law enforcement officers, (the Chief
of Police,Jthe Georgia Bureau of Investigation Agents, and Agents
of the FBI, in order to co-ordinate law enforcement protection
for this march. At the time designated by the City Manager I did
go to the City HAll and I did sit on a meeting that took place
there and I participated in the discussion, the planning and
the various techniques that would be utilized in providing this
protection and then following this planning stage I haee just
mentioned I also furnished men and participated in the exectitiion
of the plan that was formulated and was later carried out.
q Would you tell me what date that was that you
attended the meeting?
302
A It was the date prior to the actual inarch.
Q Will you state who was present at that time? Can
you name the individuals that were present at that time?
A The City Manager, Mr. Lane, was present. He
moderated. Chief Josey was present, I believe. Henry Walden
of the GB1. Mr. Applegate of the FBI, and some other member of
the FBI that 1 don't remember. He was out of the Savannah Office
and myself.
Q Were there any others present?
A I believe you were there. I don't recall any others
ofaher than that being there. I believe there were others but I
don't recall who they were. If I might add this: There might
have been some member of the East Dublin Police Department over
there because I do recall that we have included, or attempted to
include, all the law enforcement agencies of the county, state
and federal government and Jto utilize them to the best advantage
to offer protection to all of our citizens. So, I do know that
there were others there, but I could not definitely say whether
the East Dublin Police or some rep resentative of their department
was there, but I think possible that they were.
Q Can you recall whether or not Lt. Vernon DeLoach
was present?
A Yes, sir, he was peesent.
Q Sheriff, I hand you some objects there and ask you
if you can identify those?
302
MR. MOORE: Y^ur Honor, I hate to protnude on Mr. Hayes'
case, but perhaps it would be better for all concerned if he
would have them marked for identification.
MR. HAYES: I don't know whether he can identify them
yet or not.
THE COURT: All right, if he can identify then, why,
then you can have the court reporter to mark them for identification
All right, you may proceed.
Q Can you identify those?
A yes, I recognize them.
Q What are they?
A These are photographs that were made during the
march that took place in the City of Dublin on the date just
specified by you, just stated by you.
MR. HAYES: I will have these marked now
THE COURT: All right.
(NOTE: Accordingly same were then marked for identifi
cation as Defendants' Exhibits one through eight, respectively.)
Q Do you recognize that picture?
A Yes, sir.
Q Sheriff Bussell, can you be a little more specific
about the conversation that took place in the planning of this
march?
MR. MOORE:Your Honor, I object to the conversation.
303
THE COURT: Well, I think perhaps that would be irrelevant
as to this conversation they had about the planning of this march.
Any conversation that you all had in planning and everything would
be irrelevant and hearsay evidence. Well, it wouldn't be hearsay.
MR. HAYES: That was an act within itself. It is an
actual occurrence that took place.
THE COURT: Well, he has already testified that it was
done for the protection of the public. I think that is sufficient.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir.
Q Now, I hand tfyou the Defendant Josey's Exhibit
No. 2. Will you describe what is on there to the court?
A This is a photograph of the rear of the march that
went through the city of Dublin and it is travelling south on
Jefferson street, which is the north-south of main street, they
are going through the City of Dublin. Now, at this point this is
U. S. 441 here, and the beginning of Glenwood Avenue. Then this
photograph that I have just referred to I count eleven officers
right here in this photograph.
Q T^at is Defendant'^ Exhibit No. 2.
A Yes, sir.
Q From your professional opinion, as a sheriff, would
you say that crowd of demonstrators were given adequate police
protection?
MR. MOORE: I object to that, your Honor. I think the
picture shows what it shows.
THE COURT: Well, I think his opinion would be worth
something. He is the Sheriff and knows the situation. Well,
what do you object to, what is your ground?
MR. MOORE: We object on the ground that the proper
foundation is not laid for eliciting an opinion from this witness.
THE COURT: Well, he has testified that he has been
sheriff for a number of years - well, I will admit it.I think
that testimony is admissible.
Q Will you anwwer the question?
A It is my opinion, veiy conclusively, that the rear
of this column is adequated protected. There are men on each
flank. There are men in the rear and there men up under the red
light where the column is making its turn, and so certainly it
is covered with protection as well as any one could be.
THE COURT: All right, do you have some other questions?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
Q All right, now I hand you Defendant's Exhibit
No 3. What do you see there?
A This is a photograph - it is looking west on
Jackson Street, which is the main street, the east-west m ain
street in the city of Dublin, and this photggraph is one that
includes a picture of me, and I am standing on the square of the
court house of Laurens County and I am observing the march, the
order of march, as it is coming and making its turn off Jackson
304
305
street on Glenwood Avenue,going south.
Q And what is the date of that march?
A I beg your pardon?
Q When was that march that you testified to there?
A This march that I am testifying to now is the same
march that was mentioned by you in the beginning of the testimony.
I don't recall the date, but it is the same one that you referred
to earlier.
Q What does that photograph show?
A This is a photograph of the line of march as it
is proceeding north on church street and the photograph was taken
in a southerly direction from in front of the City Hall of the
City of Dublin,Georgia.
Q Do you say there was adequate police protection
there?
A Yes, sir, I would. I see officers all up and down
the order of march. They are properly dispersed. They have the
proper equipment to protect the marchers, and further the march
was without incident, so that speaks for itself, that there was
enough protection.
Q Would you briefly examine Defendant's Exhibit No.
5 and tell the court what that is?
A Yes, sir, this is a photograph of the rally that
took place on some urban renewal prooperty. It is just off Glenwood
306
Avenue. It lies between Glenwood Avenue and Washington street
in the City of Dublin, and this is a photograph of the partici
pants at the rally on the same date that the March took place.
Q And what do you see in Defendant's Exhibit No. 6?
A Well, this is a photograph that duplicates the
Exhibit No. 8, and which we have just referred to, and the photo
graph includes pictures of the persons participating in the rally
and also is a picture of one of the automobiles and the deputies,
and the automobile that I see here has two deputies, one in the
front seat and one in the back seat, so they will have four way
access there. And for four-way access, for the benefit of those
who do not know anything about law enforcement is this: That if
you have two men sitting in the front seat, the man on the driver's
side has access only to the window nearest him, unless he wants
to reach over, in case some emergency arises, he has to reach
over and there is the possibility of endangering the life of
the deputy sitting side of him, so what we do here, for moee
efficient utilization of personnel is to put one man in the back
seat and one in the front seat. Further, by putting one in the
front and one in the back, you have a method of escape, if some
emergency arises on the left, two men can get out simultaneously,
if an emergency arises on the right two men can get out simul
taneously without jamming the doors, or without a man having
to get out on the left and run around to the right, or one get
out on the right and have to run around to the left.
Q Were those your officers?
A Yes, sir. They are officers of the Laurens County
Sheriff's Office.
Q Now, I hand you Defendant's Exhibit No. 7, and ask
you to state what that shows?
A This is another photograph of some of the partici
pants of the march in front of the Catholic Church in the City
of Dublin on the same date mentioned.
Q And I ask you what Defendant's Exhibit No. 8 shows?
A Exhibit No. 8 further shows some of the participants
of the march. Included in this photograph - well, I see four
actual full body participants in the march here and one policeman.
Q What does that sign say?
A It says: "Price Fire Josey, or meet us at the polls."
THE COURT: What?
THE WITNESS: It says: "Price fire Josey or meet us at
the polls."
THE COURT: He was the mayor?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
Q Now, Sheriff, I hand you defendant's Exhibit No.
1. Are you familiar with that photograph?
A Yes, I am.
Q Are you familiar with that building?
A Yes, sir.
3 0 7
Q As shown by that photograph?
A Yes, sir.
Q Whet is shown in there?
A This building is a building that belongs to a Mrs.
Williams in Dublin. It is better known as a building that housed
an pop cola business back during World War 11. And it has housed
numberous businesses since then, Hartly-Rowe body Shop. Hartly-
Williams Body Shop, and now I think Williams Body Shop is now
occupying this building, but more specific and what you have re
ference to is that the front of this building is inclosed with
large plate glass windows. Now, each one of these large plate
gLass windows have been broken by some object being thrown through
these windows and breaking the windows --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I object to that, Your Honor.
I don't see the relevancy of whatever body shop that is.
MR. HAYES: If he will let him finnish he will see some
relevancy.
THE COURT: All right, let him finish, and if it is not
relevant I will rule it out.
THE WITNESS: Well, these large plate glass windows have
holes in them as a result of some one throwing an object through
the windows.
Q Where is that building located in reference to
308
Todd's Service Station?
309
A It is roughly a block away.
Q Did you receive any reports in your office con
cerning that photograph and that building?
A We received reports that some one had thrown some
objects through the windows.
Q On what date?
A Mr. Hayes, I couldn;t say what date it was that we
received the complaint. I was out of the office on that date, but
the officer that I had in charge, when I returned, reported to me
that a complaint had been filed.
THE COURT: Well, that has not been connected.
MR. HAYES: I will connect it.
THE COURT: All right. Have you finished with this
witness?
MR. HAYES: No, sir, I have one other thing on these
affidavits.
THE COURT: Well, lets take out for five minutes.
THE MARSHAL: Take out for five minutes.
(NOTE: Accordingly, a recess was then had from 4:25,
P. M., until 4:33, P.M., of the same day at which time the
proceedings were resumed as follows.)
THE COURT: All right, you may proceed.
MR. HAYES: We offer these photographs into evidence.
THE COURT: Any objections?
1£R. MOORE: We don’t think Defendant's Exhibit One is
admissible.
THE COURT:Which one is that?
MR. HAYES: I will just withold that one and offer it
later.
THE COURT: Well, suppose you do that.
MR. HAYES: I then offer Defendant's Exhibits two
through --
THE COURT: (Interposing) Well, he said he had no
objection to these, that the only one he was objecting to was
Defendant"s One, I believe, and you said you were withholding
that, and you say you will connect that later
MR. HAYES: I will.
THE COURT: All right, then I will just admit these that
you have agreed to and withhold that one.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir.
THE COURT: All right, you may proceed.
Q (By Mr. Hayes) Sheriff Bussell, you recall on
the 11th day of August, 1965, receiving city prisoners?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you participate in the arrest of any of those?
311
Q Do you know how many prisoners you received for
the City?
A No, sir, I don't.
Q Now, I read a part of an affidavit to you by
Sammy Jackson, leaving out the formal parts, states: "Sammy
Jackson, 17, live at 105 Cooper Street, Dublin, Georgia," and
among other things, it ;ends up, or at the bottom, or a part of
the affidavit says this: "They put about 40 of us boys (referring
to the 11th day of August, 1965) they put about 40 of us boys all
in one cell in the county# Jail, that on Thursday night they shot
some gas into the jail. The gas gave me a headache." Is that
statement true?
A No, sir.
Q Did you ever have any complaint from this individual,
Sammy Jackson, or anyone else about such a complaint as that?
in this case from one Frank Stanley, 18, and it is referring to
Wednesday, August 11th, 1965, and it says, in part, as follows:
"On Thursday night,while I was in jail, they shot some
kind of gas into our cells". Is that statement true?
A No, sir.
Q Did you ever have a complaint from Frank Stanley
or anyone else concerning such a complaint as that?
A No.
Q Now, I read to you from an affidavit in evidence
A No, sir.
312
Q I have an affidavit here, offered in evidence in
this case by one Shirley Bolden, 21, who says: "On Wednesday,
August 11th, 1965, I started back to the shade tree where I
was stopped by a deputy sheriff, James Williams." Do you have
such a deputy sheriff working for you?
A No, sir.
Q Have you ever had a deputy sheriff by that name?
A No, sir.
Q "He says, I have a warrant for you. I said, let
me see it.He showed me a piece of paper on which was writting
"cursing in front of a female',' My name was not on the warrant
at that time. When we got down to the county jail he put my name
on the warrant." Is that statement true?
A No, sir.
MR. MOORE: I object to that, Your Honor.
THE COURT: On what grounds?
MR. MOORE: He can't tell unless he is in a position
to know.
THE COURT: I am sure he was in a position to know,
or he would not have testified to it. He said that it wasn't
so.
MR. MOORE: He is testifying about the question he asked.
THE COURT: Do what?
MR. MOORE: He is testifying to the question he asked.
THE COURT: He asked him if that particular incident
313
occurred, and he said it did not.
MR. MOORE: But, Your Honor, if he is going to testify
to it, he should be in position to know. I move to strike the
witness' testimony.
THE COURT: Well, you might ask him the question as to
whether he was in a position to know.
Q Is it the policy in your office to have warrants
served that have no nameswritten on them?
MR. MOORE: I object to that,Your Honor.
THE COURT: Just ask him the particular point blank
question whether he knows of the occurrence. I am not going to
tell you how to try your case. You know as well as I do.
Q Do you remember Shirley Bolden being arrested?
A No, sir.
Q All right.
A May I say something on my own volition?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
THE WITNESS: Now, this is something that I can say, for
the benefit <fif counsel on both sides, and that is I am the sheriff
of Laurens County and I personally hire and I personally lire all
the deputies who work for me or who have worked for me in the
past. Now, they act under direct orders from me, written orders,
not verbal orders, but written orders. I make them up in the
office of sheriff and I hand them to them as to what we are going
to do and how we wmm are going to do it, and no man has ever
314
served a warrant against anyone in Laurens County in blank, nobody
has ever served a John Doe warrant in Lauresns County --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) The best evidence of that
would be --
THE WITNESS: (Interposing) Well, I am the sheriff.
MR. MOORE: Well, your Honor I still think that the
witness should be restricted to the type of evidence that he
could testify about. The best evidence as to whether these
type of warrants have been served would be the warrant themselves.
THE COURT: All right, he is just explaining the matter.
You may go ahead,Sheriff.
THE WITNESS: To continue, none of these search warrants
have ever been served, and if anybody can produce any evidence
that one has been served I will be very quick and very fast to
fire the man, because I certainly don't approve dif it myself. It
is against my orders and it is against my policy and I just don't
have it. Now, let me say this further, if I may, Your Honor.
MR. MOORE: ^gur Honor, I would like to have the oppor
tunity to cross examine this witness.
THE COURT: You will haee your opportunity.
MR. MOORE: He has attempted /to testify --
THE COURT: (Interposing) Well, let him go ahead and
explain the matter.
MR. MOORE: There is no question before the witness,
and apparently he thinks it is important to his case that --
315
THE COURT: Well, the Court does. The Court thinks it
is advantageous to him. He is a public officer, and if he wants
to make a statement as to his conduct of his officers relative
t o --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) But the Court hasn't asked
h i m --
THE COURT: (Interposing) I have already ruled on it.
MR. MOORE: I would like to state something for the
record.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. MOORE: The Court has not asked this witness any
question. Mr. Hayes has not asked him. I haven't asked him any
questions about that.
THE COURT: Well, he asked me could he make the statement
and I said yes.
MR. MOORE: But I thinkji it should be relevant to the
issues in the case.
THE COURT: That's all right. I will admit it. I will
say that it is relevant.
THE WITNESS: Well, so much for the warrant. Now, about
the gas. I don't even have any gas of any kind, tear gas, or
any other kind of gas. I have never had any in the five years
that I have been in office. I am against the use of any kind
of gas. We just don't have it, and we won;t have next year if
I am there and we won't have it the year adter that, if I am
316
there, and I am not just saying this as to the parties concerned,
but I am saying it to everybody, that there will be no Jone Doe
warrant served and there will be no blank warrants served and
there won't be any gas used, and we won't have any gas.
THE COURT: All right, Sheriff. Now, anything else,
Mr. Hayes?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
Q Sheriff, has any complaint ever been made to you
by Shirley Bolden or anyone acting for her that this situation
existed that I read to you about the warrant not being completed?
A No, sir.
MR. HAYES: That's all.
THE COURT: Now, the witness is your's. You may proceed.
...................... CROSS EXAMINATION ......................
BY MR. MOORE:
Q
A
Q
they want to,
A
Q
or any of the
A
Do the City Police have access to your jail?
Yes, sir.
They come in when they want to and they leave when
is that correct
Yes, sir.
Tfeey do not have to request permission of you
deputies in order to enter the jail, is that correct?
Essentially.
317
Q. IS THAT CORRECT?
A Essentially. May I say this? Our jail, we open
it ito all law enforcement officers. Anyone whom we recognize
as an officer, cijzy, state or federal are admitted.
Q But it is true that the police officers of the city
of Dublin have free access?
A That's correct.
Q Do you have an officer with a similar name of
James? Do you have a deputy sheriff by the name of James?
A Give me a moment and let me think. No, I don't
have.
Q Do you have any special deputies by that name?
A No, I don't have.
Q Were you present at the jail on August 11th, 1965,
in the evening?
A Give me just a minute and let me look at my calendar
and see. I was at the jail on August 11th, 1965, which was on a
Wednesday, until 4:00 o'clock in the afternoon.
Q Did you return to the jail after 4:00 o'clock?
A I returned jAto the jail approximately 1:00, A. M.
on August 12, 1965.
Q Then, Sheriff, you conclude that you were not at
the jail between the hours of 4:00 P. M. and 1:00 A. M.?
A That's correct.
318
Q Y&u don't know what happened during those hours,
do you?
A No, sir. I might explain. I was in Atlanta
attending a school.
Q Do you know who made these pictures that are
Defendants' Exhibits 2 through 8?
A Those pictures were made by the -- well, he is
an officer in the Dublin Courier Herald Publishing Company.
q Pardon me?
A He is an officer, I don't know what office he
holds, but he is in the Courier Herald Publishing Company.
Q Is that a newspaper in Dublin?
A Yes.
Q Was this march in the daytime?
A Yes.
Q About what time df day was it?
A It was about 3:00 o'clock, about 2:30 or 3:00
o'clock in the afternoon.
Q I show you Defendant's Exhibit "D-4" and ask you
if you see Chief Josey in that picture?
A I ;can definitely say that three of those officers
are not Chief Josey. Now, there is one down there that I can't
say about. He is about the same stature of a man as Chief Josey.
May I point to him?
A This man is about the same stature as Chief Josey
and, of course, I was not present when this particular photograph
was made, but this man has the same stature as Chief Josey and
stands like ?Chief Josey and that could be him.
Q Now, I think this is Defendant's Exhibit "D-6",
none of those men in there are Dublin Police Officers, are 'they?
A These two men in this car here are deputy sheriffs
of Laurens County.
Q Are all the men shown in the picture with white
hats on in "D-2" , are they police officers or deputy sheriffs?
A They are police officers.
Q Police officers?
A There were some forty odd officers, city officers,
that were involved in the protection and support of this march,
not counting the federal officers that were present.
Q Now, there were not any large froups of white
people gathered on the day of that march, August 4th, was there?
A No.
MR. MOORE: The witness is with you.
THE COURT: All right, you may go down. Call your next
witness.
320
VERNON L. DeLOACH. SWORN FOR THE DEFENDANTS, TESTIFIED.
BY MR. HAYES:
ON DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q State your name?
A Vernon L.DeLoach.
Q What is your job?
A City Detective, Dublin, Georgia.
Q What is your rank?
A Lieutenant.
Q How long haee you been so employed?
A I have been employed as City Detective since
March 1st of 1965.
Q What did you do before that time?
A I was a uniform police officer.
Q Of the City of Dublin?
A Yes, sir.
Q For how long?
A Two years and about six or eight months.
Q Have you had any other law experience other than
what you haee just described?
A I was deputy sheriff of Laurens County for two
years.
MR. MOORE: Bid he say Laurens County?
THE COURT: He said Laurens County.
THE WITNESS: Laurens County.
321
THE COURT: That's at Dublin?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
Q Do you recall a Civil Rights Demonstration March
held in Duhlin on the 4th day of August, 1965?
A Yes, sir, i do.
Q Did you participate in that march in any manner?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q What was your participation?
A I was in charge of the police department, as the
Chief of Police was absent that day, and I was filling his place.
Q At whose request?
A At the request of the City Manager and Chief of
Police.
Q And at whose Request were you assiting in the
march?
A ?At whose request was I assisting in the march?
Q Yes, sir. Who asked thd Police Department to
assist them in the march?
The NAACP or SCOPE
Q Did they furnish you any information concerning
this march?
A They furnished the information to the City Manager
and he, with me, rounded out the march that they told him they were
going to take, on the map, and I have the map that I drew up and
322
the route they told us they were going to take.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor to shorten things, we will agree
that notice was given of the march and that the line of march was
drawn up.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HAYES: All right, thank you.
Q What plans were made concerning police protection
to protect this march?
A I called in all of my off-duty police officers that
day, August 4th. I called in all my police officers and then in
a meeting from one to two discussed this march with them, telling
them what their job was in this march and where their post would
be and also I called in this reserve police that we have. I called
the Captain and asked him to get me as many of his men that he
could firnish that day to use as road guards, to turn the traffic
from Jackson street to the line of march they had stated to us
that they were going to take, that they were going to assemble
at the Morris State Bank, which is the intersection of Monroe
street and Bellevue Avenue and Academy Avenue, that they would
start the march there and march down to Church street, which would
be west, they would make a left turn and march to Academy and make
a left turn and go down Academy, West Jackson, to the County
Court house, which is at the intersection of Jackson and Jefferson
streets and end the march. At 2:00 o'clock we got information that
they were holding their meeting on south Jefferson street and that
323
tyey would start the march at this location on South Jefferson
street and march to the court house and turn left again, marching
through town on Academy to Church street and turn right, going
to Bellevue Avenue and turn right again and marching back to
their location out on south Jefferson street.
THE COURT: Was that the same route that you all had
prescribed to them?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, that is all except the march
from the assembly out on south Jefferson street to the court
house. The only thing that would be change would be on sotth
Jefferson street - their assembly was supposed to start at the
Morris State Bank.
between Laurens street and Jefferson street I placed one Sergeant
in charge of that block and plced three police officers on each
side of the street and in the next block, which is Monroe street
and Laureas street, I put a Sergeant in charge of that iblock and
put three police officers on each side of the street there. On
Academy, from Church street to Monroe street, I put a Sergeant
in charge of that block and gave him the balance - I gave him two
THE COURT: With that exception, it was the same?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. That was the information that
we gathered at two o'clock?
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: I placed my police officers - this block
324
police officers there and used the other police officers to go
out and give them what protection they might need to keep the
traffice out of their assembly on south Jefferson street. I
take my reserve police and placed them at each intersection to
do onjty the direction of the traffic to keep it from west Jackson
street. As the march began on South Jefferson street and marching
to town I stayed along with the mafch at the rear and as it ap
proach Madison street and Jefferson street they made a left turn
and a fergeant on a motorcycle radioed and said they were tumning
on Madison street to the left which would be travelling west. I
had radio communications in each one of these blocks, a walkie
talkie, I had radio communication,and I radioed to Jefferson and
Laurens street, I radioed to that Sergeant and said "Move your
men to Madison street and give what protection they needed to
move in that block." Then I called to the second or to Monroe
and Laurens I called to that Sergeant and told him to move his
men one block back on Madison street, and likewise on Church and
Monroe streets, I moved them back, and as they passed this first
block, which is Jefferson and Laurens, I moved these men to march
along with them to give them protection at about ten to fifteen
feet intervals as they passed them and marked with them until they
completed their march out on south Jefferson, and as they passed
Monroe and Laurens street I moved the police officers back upon
Jackson street to assist them in case they needed any assistance
there, and down on Academy and Church street and Monroe street as
the march passed there I moved those police officers back upon
Jackson and also I moved them on south Jefferson street along
the roads or streets that might be coming into south Jefferson
where there were a lot of spectators or people looking on and
who were not participating in this march. I sent two officers
out to where the assembly was, this is when they returned to the
assembly, to direct the traffic where they would have plenty
of room and would not have any tra ffic coming in and holding
it off south Jefferson street.
THE COURT: All right.
Q I will ask you whether this march went right
through the middle of Dublin, Georgia?
A It went right through the middle of Dublin on
Jackson street, it did.
Q Did you have any inc idents which himdred this
march in any manner?
A No, sir, I did not, not even after the march was
changed. When they changed the line of march I moved my men
and they were there in seconds and I didn't have ayy incidents
at all.
Q Were any afre&ts made on that day?
A iio, sir.
Q What time was this march suppose to begin?
A It was suppose to begin at two, but it did not begin
until approximately three o'clock.
Q Do you recall being on duty on the 11th of August,
A Yes, sir, I was on duty.
Q Did anything unusual happen that day?
A There was an incident that happened on Glenwood
Avenue, which is Todd's Service Station.
Q What was that?
A We had -- that night we went out there, we had to
go out there on the traffic that was causing a hazardous out there,'
where we had a group of pickets out there, probably about fifty
and we had approximately two hundred across the street in front
and the pickets were continuously running in and out of the
picket lines back across the street and it was causing a hazardood
condition out there because of that and the vehicles, people
stopping and having to wait to keep from running over theqj, letting
them across, blocking the streets.
Q At what time was that?
A Probably 8:20 or 8:30.
Q What did you then do?
A When we arrived out there - I pickdd up the Chief
of Police at the City Hall and his loud speaker, his portable
speaker, and we went out there and when we got to this service
station the pickets were picketing from one end of the drive way,
from the far end of the drive way on the south side all the way
1965?
327
to the far end of the drive way on the north side, continuously
picketing up and down there. There were about 40 or 50 pickets
out there and there were, I guess, altogether about 200 people
out there and the Chief of Police, over his speaker, his loud
speaker, asked the people to disperse and go home. He asked
them four or five or maybe six times to disperse and go to their
homes. He told them that if they didn't disperse and go to their'
hmmes,that they would be arrested, that they were violating a City
Ordinance and they would be arrested if they did not disperse
and go to their homes. They were causing a disturbance out there.
There were approximately fifteen whites out there, about six or
eight in the service station, and several on the side and we asked
them all to go home and some of them did and some of them did not.
At the time the Chief told them they would be arrested if they
did not break it up and clear the street and when he told them
that they were under arrest and for the police officers to arrest
them, the uniform police officers, then some of them broke and
ran and a lot of them, when they ran, they ran down the street
on Glenwood toward their office, which is known as the SCOPE
office, which is approximately 700 feet south of this Glenwood
Service Station, Sinclair Service Station that they were picketing.
Q What did you then do?
A At that time my job - I don't wesr a uniform, at
that time I went down to the county jail and I booked these pickets
328
or these ones that were arrested as the uniform police officers
brought them in. I booked 52 of them.
Q Now, you say "booked", what do you mean by that?
A I taken their names, their ages, and the offense
that they were charged with, that the officers told me that they
ewe charged with.
Q Did you issue those? (Indicating)
A No, sir, I didn't.
Q Do you know who did?
A No, sir, I don't.
Q Do you know when they were issued?
A No, sir.
MR. MOORE:Your Honor, may the record show that counsel
has handed me Defendants' Exhibits "D-5 and D-6"?
THE COURT: That's correct, wasn't it?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HAYES: I will check them again. That's correct,
Judge.
THE COURT: All right.
Q What did you then do?
A After I booked them - it was at the county jail
officer Jackson, I asked him $o - he was at the county jail at
this time, and I asked him would he take them back and lock them
up.
329
Q Is he a police officer?
A Yes sir, he is a police officer.
Q Is hA (^.colored police officer?
A He is a colored police officer.
Q Were they locked up?
A Yes, sir, they were locked up.
Q Can you identify that?
A Yes, sir.
Q What is that?
A This is a diagram drawn of the Service Station
on Glenwood which the pickets were picketing, comer of Glenwood
Avenue, Warbash and Hudson streets, on the south side of Dublin.
Q Who prepared that sketch?
A I did.
Q Can you, using that sketch, describe - first, let
me ask you this: These dots in here, these dotted lines, shows
pickets?
A Right.
Q Now, there is no designation there as to numbers?
A No, sir.
Q Can you take that sketch and show the Judge where
hd: picketing was taken place that̂ you have described?
A Yes, sir. The pickets were picketing from this
curbing --
THE COURT: (Interposing) All right, come around. You
330
can't see over there, can you?
MR. MOORE: I can see here.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: The pickets were picketing from this curb
to this curb here. This dotted line shows the way that they were
picketing.
THE COURT: Would the pickets come up here and then
utn around and go back?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
Q What is this?
A This is the drive way to the service station on
the north side. This is the drive way to the service station on
the south side. There is some green grass right between these
two drive ways.
MR. MOORE: Suppose Lt. DeLoach mark the south drive
way with a "Y" and the north drive way with an "X" for the
record.
THE COURT: All right, you all are going to have a
mess around here after awhile. You are going to get them mixed
up, but that's up to you all.
MR. HAYES: If he wants it, he can have it. I am satisfied
with it like it is.
THE COURT: Well, I have got the information anyway.
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
331
THE WITNESS: This is the Glenwood side of the street.
THE COURT: I see it.
Q What is this highway here?
A That is Georgia 19, Glenwood Avenue, Dublin.
THE COURT:Where is that picture there. Where is that
time you have described previously in your testimony, how many
pickets were picketing in that area?
station. They were blocking the traffic by keeping anyone from
going in there. After they would pass the cars would have to stop
until they cleared the drive way, and as they would stop they
woul4 cause cars to block or back up behind each other. On thi
side of the street they would back up at least, well, I would say,
as an estimate of a 100 yards down there because it was a long
block there.
located in here?
THE WITNESS: It is not on here.
THE COURT: All right.
Q And in this area designated "Pickets" at the
A There were approximately 40 to 50.
Q Did that picketing, from your observation, have
any effect on these two drive ways?
A Yes, sir, it did.
Q What was it? What was that effect?
A They were blocking the traffic from the service
332
Q You mean it would close off this highway?
A Yes, sir,
Q And that highway?
A Yes, sir, way back down here.
Q Now, these crowds that you testified to, can you
locate them on this?
A Yes, sir, this crowd that was gathered here was
gathered on this side of the street, they were over here, gathered
here, which is at the Glenwood Soda Shop and beer joint, they were
gathered up here, here and over here.
THE COURT: All right, anything else for this witness?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
Q Can you identify that photograph?
A Yes, sir, I can.
Q What is on the back of it?
A Exhibit 1.
Q Defendant's Exhibit 1?
A Yes, sir.
Q What is that a photograph of?
A It is a photograph of Hartley and Williams Body
Sh&p.
Q On the date of the 11th of August, 1965, did ;you
have any complaint concerning that body shop?
A Yes, sir, I did. I had a complaint.
Q When was that?
A Approximately 10:00 or 10:30.
Q When you s ay 10:00 or 10:30, do you mean 10:00
or 10:30, A. M., or 10:00 or 10:30, P. M.
A P. M.
Q State what the conplaint was to the court?
A Some one had thrown something in the widows and --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I object to that,Your Honor.
THE COURT: Unless he connects it, I will sustain the
objection.
THE WITNESS: Some one had thrown something in the
windows of this place, the plate glasses, and when I arrived
there I hdd seen that there were several bricks laying inside of
this body shop, and I called Mr. Hartley^ to come down and open
up the body shop, and as we entered the building, which there was
glass all over the side walk in front of the building and glass
on the inside of the body shop. There were six bricks laying on
the inside that we found, and I asked Mr.Williams if the bricks
were in thdre when he left and he said no, that they werem't, and
from the evidence on the concrete, or the floor, showed that the
bricks had come through those windows with force and had scarred
the concrete or cement floor.
Q Can you point out on that photograph the damage
333
that was done to the windows?
334
A Yes, sir.
MR. MOORE: I moee to stripe that, Your Honor.
THE COURT: If he doesn't connect it up, I will.
MR. HAYES: I am fixing to connect it right now.
THE COURT: All right, and after you connect it, I am
going to take out until in the morning.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir.
Q Can you do what I asked you to do?
A Yes, sir.
Q Well, go ahead and do it?
THE COURT: Well, I know about what it is.
THE WITNESS: Judge, this window here is broken right
there,and this window is broken right here, and this one is broken
right here, and this one is broken right here, and this one right
here is broken?
THE COURT: Well, I see it now. I thought it was something
else, but I see it now.
Q Where is this building located in relation to Todd's
Filling Station?
A It is two blocks, and it is a good 1000 yards, at
least a 1000 yards from it.
Q When did your investigation reveal that damage
was done?
A It was done the 11th of August, 1965.
335
q When was it done in reference - or does your
investigation reveal when it was done in reference to this mass
arrests of these individuals on the 11th of August, 1965?
A Would you say that again?
q Does your investigation reveal ^hen this damage
was done in reference to the 52 arrests that the City of Dublin
made of these Negroes on the 11th of August, 1965?
A This was done after the arrest and after we had
cleared the streets at the service station on Glenwood.
MR. HAYES: I think that connects it.
THE COURT: I don't know. I haven't seen any connection
with these defendants.
MR. HAYES: If it doesn, Your Honor, that is all I have
got.
THE COURT: Well, I don't think that just this one
incident is sufficient to connect it ra up. I sustain the
objection.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir. Then we will not reoffer
that.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HAYES: Shall I continue, Judge?
THE COURT: Well, it is 5:15 now, and I usually take
out at 5:00 o'clock, so Mr. Marshal excuse everybody until 10:00
o'clock tomorrow morning.
336
THE MARSHAL: Recess until 10:00 o'clock tomorrow
morning.
(NOTE: Accordingly, a recess was then had from 5:15,P.M.
Thursday, August 26th, 1965, until 10:00 o'clock, A. M.,Friday,
August 27th, 1965.)
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, Mr. Hayes and I have agreed
that the following people need not appear or remain in attendance
in court to be aross examined about their affidavits, and that
is Maxium Carl Rice, Frank Stanley, Shirley Bolden and Thomas
Jackson, that so far as Mr. Hayes is concerned the others could
be escused.
THE COURT: You just want those back?
MR. MOORE: Is that correct, Mr. Hayes?
MR. HAYES: Judge, we have these affidavits, and I
feel that those are the only ones I would desire to cross examine.
the Court: All right.
MR. HAYES: As far as the plaintiffs, I have nothing to
do with that. I think some of them are parties in this case, but
I will not call any of these witnesses for the purpose of cross
examination.
THE COURT: Suppose you call them again so there won't
be any misunderstanding. You will not cross examine those witnesses
337
is that right?
MR. HAYES: The onfy witnesses that I require and will
attempt to cross examine as to these affidavits is Maxium Carl
Rice, Frank Stanley, Shirley Bolden and Thomas Jackson.
THE COURT: All right, sir.
MR. HAYES: Anita Louise Glascow?
THE COURT: That is what you all have agreed to?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
10:00 O'CLOCK. A. M. FRIDAY. AUGUST 27th, 1965.
THE COURT: All right, you may proceed. I believe the
Lieutenant was on the stand when we adjourned yesterday.
MR. MOORE: Is it likely, Your Honor, that we will go
tomorrow?
THE COURT: If we don't finish today we will.
MR. MOORE: Very well.
THE COURT: I have out of town counsel scheduled. I
thought about adjourning over the week end, but I have got
several matters next week. All right, proceed.
MR. HAYES: ^our Honor, I would like to introduce into
evidence Defeddant's Exhibit No. 9, which opposing counsel says
338
he has no objections to,which has been identified and testified
to by this witness in his testimony
THE COURT: All right, it is admitted without objection.
MR. HAYES: And also I would like to introduce at this
time Defendant's Exhibit No.10, which shows the line of march of
the demonstrators as testified to by this witness now in the
stand, which the attorney for the ppposing side says that he
has no objection.
THE COURT: All right, it is admitted without objection.
MR. HAYES: The witness is with you.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. MOORE:
Q Chief DeLoach, I forgot how long you said you had
been with the police department?
A I have been with the police department three years.
I was with the uniform police for about two years and six or
eight months.
Q Ygu haee been with the Dublin Police Department
for btween two and three years?
A Yes, sir.
Q You were a uniform officer for two years and six
months?
339
A Yes, sir.
Q And you have been a plainclothes detective for
approximately how long?
A I was taken over with the plainclothes detective
on March 1st, this year.
Q What was your rank at the time you took over?
A At the time I taken over with the Detective Depart
ment, I was just a plain patoolAan.
Q Just a plain patrolman?
A Yes, sir.
Q And since that time you have risen - well,I made
a mistake. I should have said Lieutenant, should I?
A Right.
Q I am sorry about that. You have risen to Lieutenant?
A That's right.
Q And that is in the space of about six or eight
months ?
A About that.
Q When were you promoted to Lieutenant?
A Monday night, the first Monday night in this
month.
Q In August?
A Yes.
Q Do you intend to stay with the Department?
A Yes, sir.
340
Q I believe you testified that on the day of the
march, August 4th, 1965, that Chief Josey, here, was out of town,
is that correct?
A August 1st?
Q August 4th?
A Right.
Q Lets say the big march?
A Right. He was.
Q Do you know where he was?
A He left going to Daytona Beach on vacation.
Q How long did he stay away on vacation, do you
know?
A About four or five days.
Q The Chief had been in on the initial planning for
this march, had he not?
A This march?
Q Right? You know there was a meeting between the
Chief, Mr. Lane, the FBI Agents, Mr. Walden, the GBI Agents and
I believe the Mayor and yourself on a Monday before this march,
is that correct?
A I don't recall the day. I was thinking it was
on a Saturday.
Q I maybe mistaken as to the date, but there was
a meeting, is that correct?
A Right.
341
Q And at that time the plans of the march and how
to handle the march were outlined, is that correct?
A Right.
Q And I suppose Sheriff Bussell participated in
that meeting and planning?
A He did.
Q And you, yourself, right?
A Right.
Q You sorta outlined, or masterminded, to use that
phrase, how to deploy the police and all, didn't you?
A Right.
Q The deployment of the police was one of the big
tasks since you haee been Lieutenant, is that right?
A Will you ask that question again?
Q I say, the deployment of the police and providing
how the police should be used on this occasion was sorta one of
the big jobs that you have done since you took over as Lieutenant,
wasn't it?
A Well, in this march I was only a Sergeant.
Q You were oify a Sergeant at that time?
A Right.
Q But subsequent to the march you have been made a
Lieutenant, is that right?
A Right.
Q
the police?
A
342
On the date of the march, were you in charge of
Right.
Q Now, it was not your idea that the Chief should
go out of town, was it?
A No.
Q That was Mr. Lane's idea, wasn't it?
A I don't know.
Q There was some discussion that the Chief should
not be present during the march, wasn't there?
A No.
Q The Chief is considered as being a little hot
headed on these racial questions, isn't he?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q But there could have been some discussions with
others when you were not present as to the Chief being absent?
A I don't know what was said behind my back.
Q All right, you can't testify about that?
A No.
THE COURT: All right, anything else?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir. I have some more questions.
THE COURT: Well, don't you all think most all of this
is irrelevant this morning, about the Chief going on a vacation?
That's his business. He certainly wasn't running away. I will
343
*
bet on that. I am not taking sides on it. But if he did go off
I don't see where that has got anything to do with this case.
He ought to be congratulated on getting a vacation. That is all
I am going to get.
MR.. MOORE: You are not alone in that,Your Honor.
Q This Exhibit "D-8", a photograph of pickets with
signs, is that correct?
A Yes, it is.
Q And that sign says "Price", referring to the late
deceased Mayor of Dublin, "Fire Josey or meet us at the polls."
Is that right?
A That's right.
Q Was it your understanding that one of the chief
gripes and greviances that these Negro pople there in county,
or in Dublin, was against the Police Chief, is that correct?
A Well, the picket signs they were carrying, his
name was on several of them.
Q And,from reading those signs, as a matter of common
sense, would sa y that they were dis-satiified with the Chief?
A Well, with the signs there.
Q Now, the police here in Defendant's Exhibit "D-2",
that you see bringing up the rear there, thdise policemen are
there to make sure that the march does not get out of order and
that they do not wander all over the place and create any disorder,
is that correct?
344
A It wasn't the march, It was mainly to keep the
by-standers and other people that would be standing on the streets,
the hot-heads, getting into the march or interferring with the
march. It wasn't that the march was going to get out of order.
Q All right. It is your experience that the Negro
pickets are usually orderly and well behaved?
A They were orderly that day.
Q You have had experience with what you call "hot
heads" before, had you not?
A Well, in my line of work, I have.
Q Well, as it ^elates, lets say, to tihese civil
rights dsmonstrations, had you had prior experience with hot-heads?
A Not with this march, no.
Q I mean in prior civil rights incidents?
A Well, only this incident that happened on Glenwood,
where there was a gatering on the streets.
Q When you say "hot-heads", what does that m ean? What
do you mean by that?
A Well, the way I would describe a hot-head is one
that couldn't hold his temper, who would want to ral up. I am
not speaking of hot heads that would happen in this, but I am
speaking in the past when we have arrested some, not only the
colored people but whites ;also.
Q Would you say that a hot-head is --
345
THE COURT: (Interposing) Now, listen, We are getting
into a dictionary situation now as to what a hot head is. Lets
get down to this case.
MR. MOORE: I think this is right down the line, Your
THE COURT: Well, didn't you all have some picketing at
some of those stoees up there? Didn't we have some testimony
on yesterday that you all had some trouble up there?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, that they were picketing at
the store, I wasn't present at that time.
THE COURT: All right.
Q Now, were you present when the incident happened
at the First Baptist Church on the 25th of July?
A Yes, I was.
Q Were you present in the morning?
A Yes, I was.
q What about in the afternoon?
A Yes.
Q Were you there at the same time the Chief says
A Yes, I was.
Q Now, on August 4th, the day of the big march, that
Honor.
he was there?
was on Wednesday, wasn't it?
A Right.
Q
are they not?
A
346
Q
are they not?
A
Q
And on Wednesday the shops and things are closed,
Right.
On Wednesday afternoons?
A Right.
Q There is not as much traffic on Wednesday as there
is on the other days of the week?
A No.
Q The same is true for Sunday?
A Sunday, things are usually quite.
Q Now, I believe you testified that on August 11th,
1965, you went out on Glenwood Avenue there to Mrs. Todd's Service
Station, is that correct?
A August 11th?
Q Yes. Were you out there in the afternoon?
A No, not on the 11th.
Q Were you out there in the evening?
A I was out there in the evening.
Q Did you drive out in a police car?
A I drove out in my car, which is a 1956 Chevrolet.
iiQ W en you got out there, where did you park your
n
car?
A I parked it in the drive - not the drive way but
in the station parking lot, station property, grounds.
Is that in front of the service station?
347
A Right.
Q Or behind it?
A It's in front.
Q Chief DeLoach, do you have any bbjection to putting
a "D" where your car was parked on Plaintiff’s Exhibit "P-iT|?
A My car was parked approximately in this area right
here.
Q All right, just make a "D" for your car.
A All right.
MR. MOORE: Let the record show that the witness has made
a "D" here on Plaintiff's Exhibit "P-4" where his car was parked
at the service station.
Q About what time did you arrive at the station?
A Approximately 8:15, somewhere around that time.
Q Was the Chief there when you arrived?
A Yes, he was. Well, the Chief went with me out
there.
Q You weren't in the same car, were you?
A We were in the same car.
Q I In the same car?
A Right.
Q Were there other police officers there when you
arrived?
348
A When we arrived there were approximately six
police officers there.
Q All right, do you know them by name?
A I believe Sergeant Daniels was there. I don't know
exactly who all was there.
Q How about Sergeant Harden?
A I don't know whether Sergeant Harden was there
or not at this time.
Q Did the Chief arrive at the same time you arrived?
A Right.
Q Did you observe the Chief having a discussion with
anyone?
A He talked with the group. I am speaking of the
pickets, and the group that was assembled there across the street,
on all the streets, and he talked with them through a loud speaker,
a portable speaker.
Q Did he talk with anyone else?
A I don't know.
Q You didn't observe him having a discussion with
Sergeant Harden?
A No.
Q At the time you got out there, were the barricades
still up?
A No, the barricades weren't up.
349
Q They weren’t up at all. q0 you know whether or
not apy barricades had been put up?
S They had been put up, but with the crowd and all
they had been pushed back and pushed back, with the crowd that
was there, and the picketing and all, they were gone. They could
have been somewhere around the station. I don't know.
Q All right. You don't know who moved the barricades,
do you?
A No.
Q All right. Now, I think you testified yesterday,
aid I believe you will want to correct yourself on your testimony ,
you testified yesterday that there was some traffic blocking. You
said it was blocked up a 100 yards. Now, a 100 yards is 300 feet,
you didn'jtiean that, did you?
A I said approximately. From that service station
to the Glenwood Soda Shop, which is across the street from the
service station, it was blocked up frmm there all the way down
to the next street which is Hightower street.
Q Now, was there any police out there directing
traffic?
A We had police directing traffic.
Q How many policemen did you have directing traffic
out there?
A I don't know.
350
Q Do you know where they were standing?
A No, I couldn't say just where the police officers
were standing. Like I said, there were approximately six police
officers,and the Chief radioed the station and called all off duty
police officers and some reserve police officers.
Q You couldn't state definitely about the deployment
of the police at that time?
A No, I couldn't.
Q Now, when the pickets were arrested on the night
of August 11th, 1965, their signs were takentoo, weren't they?
A They had their signs.
Q The signs were taken to jail with them?
A They were.
Q Now, at the jail the signs were put in a room
separate from the place where the pickets were incarcerated, is
that right?
A The signs, some of them had thrown their signs
down there in the hall at the booking desk, and some of the
signs were thrown down on the floor, and they were picked up and
put into the finger printing room, all signs were put in the
ifeger printing room.
Q All right, sir. Now, you were in charge of the
booking, is that right?
A Well, I was the one doing the booking.
351
Q That is, you wrote out the names?
A Wrote out the names and the ages and what they
were charged with.
Q lieutenant DeLoach, did you write out Plaintiffs'
Exhibits "P-5 and P-6"?
A No, I didn't write this out. This was wrote out
later.
THE COURT: How is that?
THE WITNESS: I didn't write this.
Q May I ask you this question? You wouldnjt haee
any bbjections if I asked you this question: When you say
"booking", what does that mean?
THE COURT: Didn't he explain that yesterday?
MR. MOORE: Well, I was confused about it, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: As we carry them to the jail, we take
their names, their ages, sex, female or male and the charges.
That is at> the jail, on the books at the Laurens County jail,
Q Oh, that booking is the entering of the name
and the other information in the big book at the jail?
A Right.
Called the jail book or the jail docket?
Jail docket, I believe. I don't remember which.
And the summonses are issued later?
This summons was issued probably that night or the
Q
A
Q
A
next day, I couldn't say.
352
Q And you don't know hy whom it was issued, do
you?
A No.
Q It doesn't show who issued it, does it?
A No/
Q Now, you went out to Mrs.Todd's Service Station
the following day, the 12th, didn't you?
A Right,
Q Now, were there barricades put up out there that
day?
day.
A No, there weren't any barricades out there that
Q There were no barricades out there that day?
A No, not on the 11th.
Q On the 12th?
A On the 12th? I don't remember. I don't think there
were. I couldn't say positive whether there were or not.
Q What time did you first arrive out there at the
Todd's Service station on the 12th?
A I don't know, but I have some notes in a folder
there.
THE COURT: If you want it, you can go get it.
THE WITNESS: It is in the folder there.
Q I will pass it to you. You have no further recol
lection, do you?
q About 3:30?
A Yes, about that time.
MR. MOORE: Let the record show that the witness is
refreshing his memory.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: The booking of fourteen, which I have here,
was made at 3:30, which the arrest at the station was probably
3:25 or 3:20.
Q Now, after you arrested these people. Strike
that. Chief DeLoach, does your record show the persons whom you
arrested at 3:25?
A Yes, sir, it does.
Q Will you state those persons for the record,
please?
A Christine Wright, Female, age 15. Rosa Lee
Kirkland,female, age 25. Jerome Bullock, make , age 17. Jimmy
Lee Guyton, male, age 22. Jim Underwood, male, age 16. Larry
Godfrey, male, 17. Joe Hubbard, male, age 14. James Dixon, male,
age 18. Frank Underwood, male, 19. Ralph Lattimore, male, 14.
Rosetta J.ewis, male, 19. Ulysses Evans, male, 15. Gloria Outler,
female, 18. Sammie Robinson, male, 16.
Q Those are the persons you arrested?
A Those are the persons that I arrested.
THE COURT: Mr. Marshal, there is some laughing and
A It was probatfy about 3:30.
354
talking back there in the court room. Stop that, please.
Q Now, there were no other arrests made at the Todd
Service Station after 3:25 on the 12th of August?
A No, there wasn't.
Q Y8u made the last arrest, is that correct?
A That's right.
Q I show you Plaintiffs' Exhibits "P-3" and ask
you if you recognize the car that is in that photograph?
A Yes, sir, I recognize the car.
Q Whose car is that?
A That is a 1965 Chevrolet of the City Police of
Dublin.
Q Do you know who was driving it on that occasion?
A No, I don't.
Q Does this photograph show other police officers
and persons at the Todd Service Station?
A Yes, it does.
Q Does it show pickets?
A Yes, it does.
Q In front of the station?
A Yes, it does.
Q Is that an accurate portrayal of the way the
pickets were marching along as you came out to the station?
A No, there were more in the group when I arrived
at the station than this. This picture here is taken before I
355
arrived at the scene.
THE COURT: And you wouldn't know about that?
THE WITNESS: And I wouldn't know anything about this.
Q Now, I believe you testified from an Exhibit -
Defendant's Exhibit "D-9^ , which is a diagram of the area. You
remember your testimony?
A That's right.
Q Now, you say# that the dotted line here shows
the manner in which the pickets were picking, is that correct?
The dotted line shows the picketing on the evening
of the 11th.
Q In the evening,on the 11th?
A Yes.
Q You were not there during the daytime at all?
A No.
Q That is what the dottednline shows?
A Right.
Q And what it shows is that the pickets would walk
single file from down near the intersection of Warbash and
Glenwood Drive?
A Right.
Q And Glenwood Avenue?
A Right.
Q And then turn?
A Right.
356
Q And continue in a single file?
A That's right.
Q Back and turn again, is that right?
A Yes.
Q And that is the way theytf picketed all the while,
is it not?
A Yes, that's right, that's the way they picketed.
THE COURT: Anything else for this witness?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir.
Q Lt. DeLoach, I show you Plaintiffs' Exhibit "P-7-V
and ask you if you recognize what's shown in there?
A This looks similar to this lo cation.
Q Do you see Todd's Service Station?
A I don't see Todd's Service Station. I see something
that is similar but I don't see Todd's Service Station.
Q You are not able to recognize that one?
A No.
Q Now, Lt. DeLoach, I show you Plaintiffs' Exhibit
"P-8" and ask you if you are able to recognize wh&t is shown in
that exhibit?
A The sign Sinclair. I can identify that by the
South Side Service Station on this sign, the coca cola sign.
Q This shows Todd's Service Station?
A This shows Todd's Service Station.
Q In which direction does that photograph appear
to have been taken?
357
town.
A It was taking standing on the south side facing
Q Does it accurately portray the width and character
of Glenwood Avenue down in that area?
A Yes, it is approximately 40 feet.
Q Lt. DeLoach, I hand you Plaintiffs' Exhibit "P-9"
and ask you if you are able to recognize that?
A Yes, I do.
Q .That does it show?
A It shows the sign of Todd's Service Station. It
shows "clean rest rooms", a street marker with "Glenn", or "glen".
That is about all I can make out of it.
Q Is that an accurate portrayal of the area which
is shown there?
A It is.
THE COURT: Any pickets there?
THE WITNESS: N9, sir.
THE COURT: Then what is the relevancy of it?
MR. MOORE: I think we will be able to show it.
THE COURT: Well, so far you have just shown the pictures
and you don't show anything else, and you have had the pictures
identified three or four different times.
MR. MOORE: Well, I think we will be able to tie it in
through other witnesses.
THE COURT: Tie in what?
358
THE COURT: Well, you certainly haven't got any relevancy
so far in these pictures. I think you have just identified four
pictures as being the place. If it shows pickets or anything
else that is relevancy, why, all right, but just to show him a
picture and ask him if that is the place, I don't see the relevancy
of it.
MR. MOORE: We offer these into evidence as Plaintiffs'
Exhibits "P-8" and "P-9".
THE COURT: What do you say?
MR. HAYES: Your Honor, I agree with the Court but I
have no objections to them going in.
THE COURT: All right, they are admitted.
MR. M30RE: No other questions.
THE COURT: All right, you may go down.
MR. MOORE: The relevancy of it.
HENRY L. WALDEN, SWORN FOR THE DEFENDANTS, TESTIFIED.
359
BY MR. HAYES:
ON DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q Will you state your name?
A My name is Henry L. Walden.
Q Will you give your official position?
A
gation.
Special Agent for the Georgia Bureau of Invest!-
Q How long have you been so employed?
A I have been employed by the state nearly 32 years.
Q Did you have an occasion to be in Dublin, Georgia,
Laurens County, on the dates of August 11th and August 12th,
1965?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q Do you recall the incident which caused the arrest
of some 50 demonstrators?
A I do.
Q Did you participate in the arrest?
A I was present.
Q When were you present?
A I was present approximately from about 8:00
o'clock until around 12:30 that night of August 11th.
Q When you say eight o'clock, you mean P. M?
A *;00 P. M.
Q Did you see the demonstrations?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q Will you briefly describe what you saw to the
court?
A Well, I saw this picketing at the Todd Service
Station on Glenwood Avenue there in Dublin, and there were ap
proximately fifty pickets there on the service station side, and
bunch of spectators out in the street and across the street from
the station.
Q What you have just described have any effect
upon the streets and side walks?
MR. MOORE: I object to that.
THE COURT: On what grounds?
MR. MOORE: On the ground that it is a leading question.
THE COURT: Well, what was the question?
MR. HAYES: Judge, I asked him what he saw, if it had
any effect upon the streets and side j*alks.
THE COURT: I think it is relevant. You may proceed.
THE WITNESS: The streets and the side walks both were
blocked.
Q What do you mean by "blocked"?
A Well, they were pedestrians, these pickets and
spectators and they hdd the side walks aid streets partially
blocked.
360
Q Did you make any arrests yourself?
361
A No, sir, I didn't.
Q Did you observe any arrests?
A Yes, sir.
Q Can you describe what you observed with reference
to the arrests?
A Well, most of the arrests were made by the City
Police and the Sheriff's office, all of them were, in fact. They
were arrested and carried down to the Laurens County jail and
booked.
Q Did you stay at this scene during the entire
arrest?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you see any acts of violence performed by any
of the police officers?
A No, sir.
MR. MOORE: I object, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Objection overruled.
THE WITNESS: No, sir, there were no acts of violence.
Q Were you in position to see such acts, if there
were any?
THE COURT: You mean violence by whom?
MR. HAYES: Judge, I asked hsLm by any City police officer.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: I saw no acts of --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I object to that, Your Honor.
362
He asked him if he was in a position to see anything. He should
ask him where he was.
THE COURT: Well, suppose you ask him on cross.
Q Will you answer my question?
A Restate it, please, sir.
Q Were you in position to see the arrest?
A Yes, sir, I was standing right there where I
could observe everything.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HAYES: Your Honor, I have some exhibits here --
THE WITNESS: (Interposing) I think there are 52 of
them.
THE COURT: What are those exhibits pertaining to?
MR. HAYES: Your Honor, in this petition, if you will
let me ask this witness.
THE COURT: That's all right, go ahead.
MR. HAYES: They are claimaing police brutality, and
also in these affidavits here, and I want to be sure that I offer
evidence on them.
THE COURT: Well, I tell you, there is so much diversity
in those affidavits, I am going to request that those affidavits
te turned over to the Federal Grand jJdry, and if there is any
false swearing, I want them indicted.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I object to that. There is
no basis for that at all. I would like for the record to be
363
very clear on it.
THE COURT: Well, I am asking that it be done. I am
asking that it be done. I thought about it this morning. Somebody
is not telling the truth. I am not saying it is any of these
people, or who it is, but somebody is not telling the truth. I
want it to be thoroughly investigated by the next federal grand
jury that meets.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor --
THE COURT: (Interposing) Well, let me get through.
And if there is any false swearing, I am going to have them
indicted and tried.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, we move that the testimony of
the Police Chief and each and every witness examined and put on
the stand by the defendant. Josey, be submitted to the grand
jury also.
THE COURT: I am not getting into that. You can do that,
if you want to. That is not to come before me, but these —
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) Your Honor, they are here
testifying ---
THE COURT: (Interposing) Just£ one minute. Ygu ace not
the judge.
MR. MOORE: I know that, sir.
THE COURT: Well, you are acting like it. Now, I have
said that, and that is what it is going to be. I am going to have
366
them submitted to the next grand jury, and if they are innocent,
why, of course, they won't return a bill against them. I am not
going to have these witnesses' testimony brought before the grand
jury, but I am going t ado that, and that is final.
MR. MOORE: Just one second, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Do what?
MR. MOORE: May I have just one second? I don't know
whether the Court Reporter has put this in the record or not, but
I would like for it to be a part of this trial record.
THE COURT: Certainjry.
MR. MOORE: My motion is that the testimony of the de
fendant. Josey, and the testimony of each and every witness offered
by the defendant. Josey, be submitted to the grand jury for such
action as is proper.
THE COURT: That motion is overruled. If you so desire,
you can take it up with the grand jury. Now, you may proceed.
Q What is that I hand you there?
A This is a photograph made on the night of August
11th, 1965.
Q What are those photographs of?
A This is the route --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I object to that,Your Honor.
THE COURT: On what grounds?
MR. MOORE: There is no foundation to show that this
witness is competent to testify to the questions which are being
367
put to him as to what are those, when they were made and by whom
they were made.
THE COURT: I can't get what you mean. He is testifying
now as to these pictures.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, our position is ;that the witness
is incompetent to testify as to these pictures, because there has
been no proper foundation laid.
THE COURT: You mean as to who made the pictures? Is
that what you have reference to?
MR. MOORE: He testified that those pictures were made
on August 11th, 1965. There is no evidence to show that he was
in a position to know when they were made.
THE COURT: Well, he asked him the question and he tes
tified to it. He testified positive to the d*te, that is all I
know. I think it is relevant.
Q Did you participate in making those photographs?
A I did.
Q State the circumstances surrounding them?
A These photographs were made at the Laurens County
jail on the night of August 11th of all the people that were
arrested down on Glenwood Avenue.
Q What was the purpose of making those photographs?
A The purpose in making these photographs were to
show who had been arrested down there while they were picketing.
Q Are those photographs identified?
368
A They are.
Q How?
A By a name on the back of each one and I listed
them as we made them.
Q Now, does your list show one Frank Stanley?
A I will chetk through it and see. Yes, sir. He
will be number three.
Q Pick out Frank Stanley there, if you will, please.
THE COURT: Let me see them. You have got the names
on them?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: You placed them there yourself, the names?
THE WITNESS: No, sir, I didn't place the names on the
back, I wrote them on this piece of paper.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I can't hear the witness testi
fying.
THE COURT: I misunderstood him. I thought he said that
he marked the names on the {>ack of the photographs, and he said
that he did not do that, that he had them on a spearate piece
of pap er.
Q Do you have a photograph there identified as
Frank Stanley?
A I do, sir.
Q What is shown by that photograph?
A What is shown by the photograph?
A It just shows a photograph of Frank Stanley
stripped to the waist.
THE COURT: I think all of them are that same thing,
aren't they?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Couldn't you ask one question to cover them
all?
MR.HAYES: Yes, sir, I am going to with the exception
of this particular question, Judge.
Q How long after the arrests was it before those
photographs were made?
A Within two hours.
Q Do you see anything on that photograph indicating
any bruises or marks of violence of any kind against Frank Stanley?
A No, sir, I don't.
Q Have you examined all of those photographs?
A I have, sir.
Q Do you see anything in those photographs to show
any bruises or marks of violence or any type whatsoever?
A No, sir, I don't.
MR. HAYES: I would like to offer these photographs into
evidence.
THE COURT: Well, he hasn't seen them yet. Exhibit them
to opposing counsel first.
370
MR. MOORE: We have no objections to the photographs.
THE COURT: Admitted without objections.
MR. HAYES: They will be Defendants' Exhibits 11 through
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HAYES: Your witness.
MR. MOORE: May I have a few seconds, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. MOORE:
GBI?
A
Q
32 yeass?
that long.
Safety prior
A
Q
A
Q
Officer Walden, how long have you been with the
1 have been with the GBI for twenty years.
I thought you testified that you had been with them
I have been with the Department of Public Safety
And what did you do with the Department of Public
to becoming a GBI Agent?
I was a uniform man.
That was with the State Patrol?
Right.
Where were you stationed during the 32 years?
371
A My first post of assignemfent was at Americus,
Georgia. Brunswick,Georgia, was the second, and then Swainsbor,
Cartersville and Dublin.
Q And what are your hours of employment with the
GBI now?
A My hours of employment?
Q Twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week.
Q And do you liee there in Dublin?
A I do.
Q How long have you lived in Dublin?
A Dublin is my home.
Q Do you know the attorney here, Mr. Hftyes?
A I do.
Q Is he a friend of your's?
A Well, I have been knowing Mr. Hayes every since
he has been in Dublin. I consider him to be my friend.
Q What about Chief Josey?
A I have been knowing Chief Josey for about eight
years.
Q Do you consider him your friend?
A I sure do.
Q Did you know him when he was over in Cochran?
A I did.
Q Was he your friend over in Cochran?
372
A That is right.
Q You worked together from time to time?
X Worked together.
Q Now, were you assigned to cover civil rights
demonstrations by the GBI?
A I was requested by the Police Department and
the Sheriff's Department to observe these that we were having in
Dublin.
Q Did you receive any official assignment from
Atlanta to do so?
A I didn't have to.
Q I am asking you, did you?
A I did not.
Q And your roll was one of objservance, is that
correct?
A That's correct.
Q Where can I find the regulations which permit you
to take photographs of persons arrested on citytf charges?
A I don't know where you ean find them.
Q By that, do you mean there is no such regulation?
A I don't know about you finding them, but we
photograph prisoners.
^ I am asking you about the regulations?
A i don't know about the regulations.
373
Q
not, do you?
You don't know whether jthere is a regulation or
A
Dublin or in
A
Q
A
Q
Well, I know that we do it.
Were these photographed in the GBI Office in
the county jail?
They would be at both places.
In both places?
That's right.
I am asking you where the pictures were taken?
A They were taken at the county jail. Excuse me.
thought you said where are the pictures now.
Q They were taken at the county jail?
A At the county jail.
Q Was that a machine provided by the Georgia Bureau
of Investigation? a
A It was.
Q Is it stationed at the county jail?
A Beg your pardon?
Q Is the photographic camera kept at the county jail?
A No, it isn't it.
Q Now, did you bring it over from the GBI office?
A No, I didn't. Captain Hutchins did.
Q Did you order him to bring it over?
A I didn't order him. He is my boss.
374
Q He brought it over?
A Yes.
Q Now, the purpose in making these pictures were
to be able to keep civil right demonstrators under surveillance,
is that not true?
A I didn't know anything about that surveillance
business. Those pictures were made after the arrests were made.
Q And then you have a record of persons who ha ve
been involved in civil rights demonstrations?
A I have never seen any records of any people that
were involved in my department there in Dublin.
Q And you have never seen any situations where you
stripped people down to their waist and take their pictures, have
you?
A Oh, yes.
Q Do you do that commonly?
A Everytime we make pictures, except on the women.
Q But you don't have any express authority to do
that, do you ?
A Well, I don't know what express authority you
would have to have, but that is the way we do it.
Q Are you a member of the First Baptist ?Church of
Dublin?
A I am.
375
Q How long have you been a member there?
A I have been going there 52 years.
Q I show you defendant's exhibit "d-58" and ask you
to examine it?
A All right.
Q When you took those pictures, what was your purpose
in taking them?
A We made a picture of all the prisoners that were
arrested that night.
Q What was your purpose in doiqg so?
A The purpose was to have a record of those that
were arrested.
Q Was there any other purpose?
A That was it.
Q Then your purpose in photographing the persons
was not to determine whether they had bruises and contusions but
to have a record about whether they had been arrested or not?
A We photograph all the prisoners that we arrest.
Q Will you answer the question?
A Rephrase that question, or restate it, either one
you want to. What did you ask me?
Q I asked you if the purpose in taking the pictures
was not to photograph bruises and contusions but to have a record
of the persons who had been arrested?
376
A Right.
q Now, you testified that all of the 52 persons
that you photographed on the night of August 11th were arrested
while picketing, is that correct?
A They were ;arrested while either picketing or
demonstrating.
q Aftd you testified that all of the 52 persons that
were arrested were on picket lines, is that correct?
A All were, or had been, or involved in it one way
or the other.
arrested in the SCOPE office, were you?
A I was right in front of the Scope office when
that happened.
Police Chief Josey brought outside had been on the picket line
earlier or not, do you?
So$ you concluded?
A That1s right.
0 You were not present at the time the pickets were
You were right in front of the Scope office?
A Right.
q And you don't know whether or not the people that
A Most of them had.
Q Which ones?
A Well, I couldn't name them.
377
Q So you don't know whether they had or not?
A Well, I knew them by their face.
Q How long had you been observing these people?
A I have been observing them every since they have
been in Dublin.
^ So you would be able to recognize them by their
names?
A No, I wouldn't be able to recognize them by their
names. I don't even know your name.
Q Did you see the Chief when he brought out Linda
DeNotie? I will show you this picture.
A Well, I would know by looking on the back. Yes, sir,
I remember her. I remember him coming out with her.
Q He had her by the arm, didn't he?
A When I saw him, he didn't.
Q He had her though, didn't he?
A She was in front of him when I saw her.
Q And that is all you saw?
A Yes.
Q But she came out of the SCOPE Office, didn't she?
A Well, the way that building is built, they had
a blackboard or something across there, and when I saw them they
were coming out of what appeared to be a grease rack place thing
there, or something.
378
Q Back behind a board?
A Back behind this service station there, South Side
Service Station, I believe it is.
Q You personally saw the Chief arrest her, didn't
you?
A No, I didn't see him personally arrest her. I
saw her coming out ahead of him.
Q The Chief was right behind her?
A He was right there behind her, close to her.
Q Now, I show you Defendant's Exhibit "D-56 ". Who
is that a picture of? Does it show on the back?
A Charles Lattimore.
Q Now, you don't know who hit that felbow in the
eye, do you?
A No, sir. I didn't see anybody hit him.
Q You didn't see anybody hit him.
A No, sir.
Q And you don't know who hit hi, do you?
A If anybody hit him, I didn't see it.
Q I show you defendants' exhibit "D-53", and I ask
you if you know the person who hit the person shown in that
photograph?
A If he was hit, I don't know a thing about it.
Q I show you defendant's exhibit "D-33", and ask
you if you know the person who hit that man on his head?
379
THE COURT: Let me see those pictures when you finish
with them .
THE WITNESS: All right, sir. If anybody hit him, I
didn't see him.
Q The photograph that you have here of Frank Stanley
merely shows his face, shoulders and his chest down to his waist
line, right?
A That's right.
Q And his arms down to his forearms, is that correct?
a I will have to look at the picture to tell you.
That is correct.
Q What is the exhibit number on that one?
>A 59.
Q D-59?
A Yes.
Q Just one other question, Chief Walden. Pardon me.
I keep calling everybody chief. Did you drive out to the service
station that night?
A I drove out to the front of the station that night.
Q In front of the station ?
A Yes.
Q Do you have Plaintiff's Exhibit "P-4" there?
A Here it is.
Q I show you plaintiff's exhibit "P-4", is that a reu
representation of the area?
380
A Yes, sir, that looks pretty good.
Q What time did you arrive at the station? Is it
Captain Walden or what?
A No, Special Agent.
Q Special Agent?
A Yes.
Q What time did you arrive at the station?
A It was around 8:00 o'clock, I presume.
Vi Was it before eight or after eight?
A About eight, or maybe a little before or a few
minutes afterwards, it could be either way.
Q What kind of a car were you driving?
A I was driving a Plymouth?
Q Where were you parked?
A I can't tell you exactly vhere I parked but it
was near the service station.
Q Do you have any recollection of where you parked?
A It was on Glenwood, along in here. I don't liknow
exactly where. It was on Glenwood in here somewhere.
Q On the side where the station was?
A Yes, it was.
Q Was it inside of the station perimeter?
A I believe I did pull up in there.
Q Do you have any objections in taking this pen
aid marking a MW" where your car was parked?
381
A Well, now, I wouldn't say it was parked in the
exact spot.
Q Just your best estimate?
A 1 was in and out there a good bit. Wait a minute.
I pulled up Warbash and came right in here.
Q 0. K. Put a "W" right there?
A All right.
MR. MOORE: Let the record show that the witness puts
a "W" on Plaintiff's Exhibit "P-4" where his car was parked.
Q Mr. Walden, were you out at the station earlier
in the day?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were you out there at the time Chief Josey put up
the barricades?
A Well, wait just a minufee now. Let me think. I think
1 was.
Q Do you know whether the barricades were still up
when you came back out there that night?
A Tffiat I can't remember.
THE COURT: Anything else for this witness?
MR. MOORE: Just a couple of questions, Your H^nor.
THE COURT: All right, lets move along.
Q Mr. Walden, here is an exhibit marked Plaintiffs'
Exhibit "P-10^, and I will ask you whether or not you recognize
it?
382
A That looks like Todd's Sinclair station there on
the left.
Q I will ask you if you can recognize - you can see
in the picture there a barricade. Can you see that?
A Yes, that's right.
Q Would you say that barricade is across that drive
way there?
A That barricade looks like it is across where the
side walk goes there. Here is your drive way that goes into
the service station. There is a barricade there. Here is one
here.
Q All right. So, the way it is shown in this exhibit
"P-10", that at the south drive way on Glenwood there is a barri
cade running perpendicular to the dtive way, is that correct?
A That's the way it looks, yes, sir.. I think so.
That looks like a barricade there. Here is one here, and it looks
like one there.
THE COURT: Let me see that picture with the barricade
in it.
THE WITNESS: All right, sir.
THE COURT: Where is the barricade?
THE WITNESS: Judge, that looks like a barricade there,
and one down here.
Q Now, you observed the picketing?
A Yes.
383
Q Now, the pickets would go up to the barricade,
as is shown in Plaintiff's Exhibit "P-10" and then turn around
and come back down to the north drive way and turn around and
walk back to the barricade, is that right?
A Well, at one time there they were picketing the
vhole area there on the Glenwood side, drive ways and all.
Q Chief Josey came out and barricaded /that off,
didn't he?
A Well, I don't know what day that barricade was
put up. This picketing went on for several days. Now,whether
there was a barricade up on the night of the 11th, I don't remember.
I know that the barricades were put up one afternoon out there.
Q Very well. Now, do you carry a weapon?
A I hardly ever.
Q On what occasions do you carry a weapon?
A Well, I might carry one if I know I am going out
to arrest some hardened criminal.
Q Any other times?
A Never, no, sir.
Q Do you ever carry a weapon on Sunday?
A Now, if you are getting to that church business,
I have never worn a weapon in church.
Q How about outside of the church?
A Outside of the church either.
386
MR. MOORE: The witness is with you.
MR. HAYES: Judge, I left out one picture and I think it
is important that you have them all.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HAYES: He has already identified it.
THE COURT: All right, tender it to counsel.
MR. HAYES: Ut was in the group, but it wasn't marked.
We offer that in evidence as Defendant's Exhibit No. 62.
THE COURT: All right, any objections?
MR. MOORE: No objections.
THE COURT: All right, it is admitted without objection.
Anything else?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir, one question.
THE COURT: All right.
.................. REDIRECT EXAMINATION ......................
BY MR. HAYES:
Q This Frank Stanley that he asked you about what
the picture showed, did you see him stripped that night?
A Did I see him stripped?
Q Yes, sir?
A When they brought him in he was stripped to the
waist.
Q Did you bbserve his back?
A It looked all right. I looked at it.
387
Q What did you observe?
A I just observed a boy standing there that we made
a photograph of, nothing unusual.
MR. HAYES: All right, that's all.
THE COURT: All right, you may go down.
MR. MOORE: Just a minute.
................. RECROSS EXAMINATION .......................
BY MR. MOORE:
Q You didn't pay any particular attention to what
he looked like. Y0u just wanted the best picture you could get,
isn't that right?
A Well, we looked at all of them and took their
names when they came by, Captain Hutchings and I both did.
Q That was for the purpose of making that picture,
isn't that right?
A Right.
.................... REDIRECT EXAMINATION............ -.......
BY MR. HAYES:
Q If he had any bruises, or anything on him you would
have noticed it?
328
MR. MOORE: I object to that.
THE COURT: I think that is admissible because there
was testimony here before, as I recall, that that boy got beat,
wasn't there?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
MR. MOORE: That is not a permissible question.
THE COURT: Why not?
MR. MOORE: It is a leading question, and is an attempt
to impeach his own witness.
THE COURT: What a man could see is certainly admissible.
He said he saw it and he didn't see any bruises, I think that
is admissible evidence. I will admit it. You may step down
before they think of some other questions, and I have reference
t o both sides.
389
ARTHUR L. LANE. JR.. SWORN FOR THE DEFENDANTS, TESTIFIED.
ON DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HAYES:
Q For the purpose of the record, will you state your
name?
A Arthur L. Lane, Jr.
MR. MOORE:Your Honor, I hate to interrupt him, but
will the witness raise his voice just a little?
THE WITNESS: Arthur L. Lane, Jr.
Q Do you have an official position?
A City Manager of Dublin, Georgia, yes, sir.
Q How long have you been so employed?
A Since ApriJ 1st, 1965.
Q Mr. Laney before that date, what did you do?
A Assistant City Manager at Waynesboro,Virginia.
Q What size town is that?
A About 18,000.
Q And what is the population of the City of Dublin?
Do you know the population of the City of Dublin?
A It is estimated right now as between 15 and 16,000.
Q What are the duties of a General Manager of a
City -- Strike that. What are your duties, as City Manager of
the City of Dublin, Georgia?
A WelJ. briefly, I would say to co-ordinate the
390
activities and direct the activities of the various departments,
such as your streets and what-have you and counsel administrative
representatives.
Q Do you have any jurisdiction over the Police
Department of the City of Dublin?
A Yes, I do.
Q What is that?
A Well, I am the administrative head of all of the
departments of the city, pother than the Clerk's office,of course.
q What control, if any, do you have over the police
department?
A Well, I don't know exactly how to answer that Mr.
Hayes, but I do have a certain amount of control, which I try
not to exercise any more than I actually have to. I try to leave
the operation of the Police Department and other departments to
the department heads.
q Who does the hiring and firing of policemen? of
the City of Dublin?
A The Chief of Police does this, with my sanction
in most cases, of course.
Q Are you familiar with the recent civil rights
demonstrations conducted by the NAACP and SCOPE in the City of
Dublin, Georgia?
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I object to that question about
beipgconducted by the NAACP. He hasn't shown that they were donducte
391
by the NACCP.
THE COURT:What?
MR. HAYES: The pleadings themselves show that. I asked
him if he was familiar with the recent dvil rights demonstrations
conducted by the NAACP and SCOPE in Dublin,Georgia.
THE COURT: Now, what was your objection?
MR. MOORE: I don't believe the evidence shows that.
THE COURT: What were the pleadings?
MR. HAYES: The pleadings say they were. All through
their pleadings they say this man is acting and gives his title
aod what his ^authority is with the NACCP.
THE COURT: I mean as far as this man is concerned.
MR. MOORE:^four Honor, I have no objections to him
asking if they were civil rights demonstrations.
THE COURT: All right, that doesn't make any difference.
MR. HAYES: Judge, I would like to have my question
like it was asked, if it is all right with you.
THE COURT; I don't see where it makes any difference
one way or the other, but just to get along I will sustain that
part of it.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir. Can he answer that?
THE COURT: No, I guess not.
Q Are you familiar with the recent civil rights
demonstrations held in the City of Dublin, Georgia?
A Yes, sir.
392
Q
made to you?
As City Manager, were any requests for demonstrations
A Yes.
Q How were they made?
A In writing.
Q Do you have the requests?
A Are youspeaking precisely of the march/
Q I am speaking of any?
A Oh, yes, I have a copy of each one.
Q
request made?
Let me have the request, please. When was the first
A July 29th.
Q Who was it made by?
A It was made on behalf of Reuben Gamble, but not
by Reuben Gamble. I believe at this particular time it was two
Negro women came to see me. I know they did on the latter occasion,
and I think it was true on the first one.
Q Was it oral or in writing?
A No, this was oral.
Q What was their request?
A
Dixie Stores.
To conduct picketing at Colonial Stores and Widn-
Q Did you grant that request?
A
Did you grant that request?
Yes, I did.
383
Q How did you grant that request?
A I granted it in writing here in the form of a
letter, limited to six pickets per location.
Q What did you do with the letter, the original
letter?
A The original leetter was given to the ones that
requested it. They came by my office and picked it up.
THE COURT: Who were the women?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I couldn't say.
THE COURT: Don't the letter show?
THE WITNESS: NO, they requested it on behalf of Reuben
Gamble and the letter was addressed to Mr. Reuben Gamble.
Q Do you have that letter?
A Yes, I do.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, to expedite the proceedings we
will be willing to stipulate that the letter was sent, and I
gaess that is a copy of it there.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: You have no objections to him introducing
it into evidence, do you?
MR. MOORE: Let me make sure. Let me see it.
THE COURT: All right. Lets get them all out at one
time so he can see them.
Mr. Hayes: Your Honor, I have a letter here, marked
Defendant's Exhibit No. 63, dated in August, and Defendant's
Exhibit No. 64, dated August 5th, and Defendant's Exhibit 65,
dated August 18th, and Defendant;s Exhibit 66, dated July 29th
and Defendant's Exhibit No. 67, dated August 2nd. All of these
dates are in the year 1965, and they are to be admitted without
objections.
THE COURT: What are those letters? I don't know.
MR. HAYES: Well, I haven't read them into the record.
THE COURT: Well, you needn't read them, it will take
up so much time. You give them to me. I think I can at least
read.
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir, I know that Judge. There is a
City Code Section that provides for all parades and asemblies
and so forth to get a permit from the City Manager before they
parade and picket and so forth.
THE COURT: I think I saw that in the pleadings.
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir. And these are letters in answer
to requests for these picketings, setting forth that they have
the authority to picket, the number of pickets that they can
use and the time they can picket.
THE COURT: All right.
Q Now, those are all the same except different
instances. This other letter here, the last one, is a request
for police protection for this mass march. With reference to
the request for police protection for the mass demonstration to
be held on the 4th of August, 1965, did you do anything with
385
reference to that request?
A I discussed it with the City Council, yes, sir.
Q And did you furnish police protection?
A Yes, sir.
Q State the type of police protection that you
fiirnished?
A You want --
THE COURT: (Interposing) I think the pictures and all
show that, don't they, as to the police protection that was given?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
THE COURT:Do you want to go through that again? Isn't
it in evidence?
MR. HAYES: If you don't want to hear it, we wont go
through it.
THE COURT: I will hear any evidence you allX have, but
I was just trying to simplify the matter and get through with
the case.
MR. HAYES:All right, sir.
THE COURT: Well, now, if you want to introduce it, I
have no objections for either one of you. I don't think I have
tuled out any evidence. I am just trying to simplify it.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir.
Q Are you familiar with a By-racial Committee in
the City of Dublin, Laurens County,Georgia?
386
A Yes, sir, as it is now named it is the Human
Relations Committee. It is a Bi-racial Committee.
Q Are you a member of that Committee?
A I am ex -officio member. I do not have a vote
on it.
Q How long have you been a member?
A Since April 1st, when I assumed the job that I
am in.
Q How many meetings have you attended of that
Committee?
A I would say approximately eight.
Q Is that a functioning committee?
A Yes, sir.
Q Describe the committee to the court?
THE COURT: And at the same time let me know how they
are elected. I think that is very important.
THE WITNESS: The City Council appointed a Citizens
Advistory Committee sometime last fall. I wasn't here at the
time. As an out-growth of this committed they established a
Human Relation or Bi-racial Committee.
THE COURT: Who appointed that Committe?
THE WITNESS: The Chairman of the Citizen Advisory
Committee took names that were submitted to him by a Committee
they had to establish this particular Committee, so then the
387
Chairman appointed them and it is based on population as nearly
as possible. There are seven whites and four Negroes currently
on this committee, for a total of eleven of them.
THE COURT: How does that compare with the population?
THE WITNESS: This is on the same basis as your population,
as near as you can get to it. It is 38% Negro and the jrest white.
THE COURT: You tried to be in conformity with the
population?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right, do you appoint them who have
taken no sides, or as nearly impartial as you can?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. They are definitely supposed to
be impartial.
THE COURT: What do you mean by "suppose"?
THE WITNESS: Well, you don't have any guarantee.
THE COURT: You tried to select impartial people?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: By the Chairman of this committee?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, that's right.
THE COURT: He is appointed by the committee and the
committee is appointed by the Council?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
Q Do you know the names of this committee?
A Yes, sir.
388
Q Will you read them into the record?
A Yes, sir. Wilbur S. Jones is Chairman. David
Mercer.
THE COURT:What does Wilbur Jones do?
THE WITNESS: He is the Sinclair Dealer. 0. T. Tarpley.
Bill Lovett.
MR. MOORE: You asked a question, Your Honor. I don't
think I got it.
THE COURT: I was trying to find out who the Bi-racial
Cmmmittee is and how they were selected, and he testified to
that, and then the attorney asked him who were the members of
the Bi-racial Committee. I asked him about the population to
see how that runs, the white and Negro population respectively
as to how that runs and he stated it.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I thought you asked him something
about Chairman.
THE COURT:
MR. MOORE:
THE COURT:
MR. MOORE:
THE COURT:
I asked him who was Chairman of that Committee.
And then I thought you asked something else.
I asked him what the Chairman did.
Who did he say he was, or did?
He said that he was the Sinclair Oil repre
sentative.
MR. MOORE: Thank you.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
389
THE WITNESS: The fourth name is Bill Lovett, Sarah
Orr Williams, Dr. James Kibler, Martha Hooks, A. F. Cummings,
Lucius Bacote, Ed Bates and Ruth Mays.
Q Now, will you call out the colored people that are
members of that committee?
A Yes, the last four that I read: A. F. Cummings,
Lucius Bacote, Ed Bates and Ruth Mays.
Q Do you know,9f your own knowledge whether or not
any of those members are members of the NACCP?
A Yes, I do.
Q Which ones?
A The only one that has openly stated that he was
was Ed Bates.
Q That is the only one that you know of your own
knowledge?
A We were discussing this one day in a meeting and
he definitely stated that he was.
Q Mr. Lane, can you tell the court - strike that.
Has this committee accomplished anything that you -- Well, strike
that also. Has this committee accomplished anything since you
have been an ex efficio member of it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Can you state what those accomplishments were to
the court?
390
A Well, the ones that I know of that was the direct
out growth of it was that we have hired two Negro policemen. We
have helped to integrate the restaurents and places of public
accomodation. They have had some integration of the hospital
but to the extent of this I do not know.
Q The hospital has been integrated?
A Yes, sir, it has been integrated.
Q What else?
A Employment of Negroes in local factories. Dese
gregation of the theater and there are other things that the
committee has indirectly had influence on, such as the hiring
of two Negro deputy sheriffs, Negro court baliffs, Negro jurors,
grand and traverse, and this committee definitely did a lot
of work toward having Negroes employed in department stores and
other businesses down town.
THE COURT: Will you make me a list and mail it to me?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
MR. MOORE: I wonder if counsel can have a copy?
THE COURT: Certainly. Mail jcounsel on both sides a
copy 6f it.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
MR. MOORE: Now, Your Honor, we are going to object to
the witness testifying to something in the newspaper.
THE COURT: I don't know what it is. I haven't heard
anything about a newspaper.
391
MR. HAYES: I am just going to identify this. The
plans for school desegregation which, of course, is not a city
function. There are certain rules and regulations that these
schools have to run an add in the newspaper as to what has been
done, and I have here a plan for school desegregation and it
gives a plan which has been approved by the Federal Government.
THE COURT: Well, I don't think that would have anything
to do with this case. He can testify as to what this committee
has done, I think that is admissible, but I don't think an article
in the newspaper would have anything to do with this case.
things, that they have no rights up there, nothing.
THE COURT: Well, this gentlemen has kestified to what
rights they have, and I think that is sufficient.
BY MR. MOORE:
Q Mr. Lane, Mr. Wilbur S. Jones is a member of the
MR. HAYES: All right, sir, but let me say this.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HAYES: In their petition they allege all of these
MR. HAYES: All right, sir. Ygur witness.
THE COURT: Any questions?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir.
CROSS EXAMINATION
First Baptist Church, isn't he?
392
A That's right.
Q Are you a member of the First Baptist Church?
A No, I am not.
Q I think your testimony was tnat the Human Relations -
that the Chairman of the Citizens Advisory Committee picked the
members of the Human Relations Committee, is that correct?
A That is correct, yes, sir.
Q Now, the original members of the Citizens Advisory
Committee are all white persons, is that right?
A No, that is not correct.
Q Who was on the Board of Citizens Advisory Committee?
A When it was originally set up last fall I under
stand there were around 60 members on it, of both races, now, I
understand it was around 60 members. I haven't seen aiything
official on this, but I do know that I have attended one of those
meetings when I would s^ there were approximately 25 of those
members present at the meeting.
Q Twenty-five members of the Advisory Committee?
A Yes.
Q Is that still in existence?
A Yes, it is.
Q You don't know how these persons were selected
to serve on the Citizens Advisory Committee, do you?
A My understand is that they were appointed by
the Council.
Q By the City Council?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was that in an election?
A No.
Q But there are no members of the Negro Race on the
City Council, are there?
A No, sir. That's right.
Q And then the Advisory Committee selected the persons
who would be on the Human Relations Committee?
A That's correct.
Q The Human Relations Committee was not appointed
by the Citizens Council?
A That's right.
Q As a matter of fatt, the Human Relations Committee
only has an informal status, is that correct?
A That is true.
Q They do not have any official standing or authority?
A It is strictly a recommending body, regardless of
who it is appointed by, it is still a recommending body.
Q Just to recommend, right
A That's right.
Q And it was set up by population ratio, so there
would be a white majority?
A No, I wouldn't say that.
394
Q Well, it was set up that way?
A It was set up on a population basis, yes, but
to say it was definitely to be a white majority, I would not
agree with that, no.
Q There are more white people on it than Negroes,
right?
that question.
MR. MOORE: He said between 15 and 16,000, but he did
not break it down by the races.
THE WITNESS: The 1960 census said that it was around
something like 8,000 whites and 5,000 Negroes.
now. It was only around about 13,200, I think, I don't know the
eaact figure.
population now is estimated between fifteen and sixteen thousands.
Q And you don't know whether the increase has been
A That's right.
Q Now, what is the white population of Dublin?
THE COURT: I think I asked him that and he answered
Q Eight thousand Negroes --
A No, whites.
Q Eight thousand and some white?
A Yes. That is the 1960 census that I am quoting
THE COURT: The entire population?
THE WITNESS: The entire population, yes, sir, but the
in favor of the Negro race or the i'/hite race?
395
A I have no way of knowing that.
Q All right. But the representation on the Human
Relations Committee is tagged to the 1960 census?
A That is correct, yes.
Q And that, roughly, based on the 1960 census, that
means - I think you said fifteen members?
A No, it's eleven members.
Q Of the Human Relations Committee?
A Yes, sir.
Q And that would entitle white representatives to
seven and Negroes to four?
A That is correct.
Q You say that is a fair mathematical balance?
A I wouldn't say that it was exactly, but I would
say it was at the time the committee was established.
Q Now, there were two suits filed by the United
States Justice Department to desegregate restaurents in Dublin,
is that correct?
A I read it in the papers is the only way I know it.
Q But even after the 1964 Civil Rights Act of 1964
was passed, there were still restaurent segregation in Dublin?
A I understand so. I am not familiar with the suits.
All I know is that I read an article in the paper that the suits
had been filed.
396
Q Now, you are not acquainted with the hospital
situation either, are you?
A No, I am not.
Q You don't know, of your own personal knowledge, that
the Investigators have come here from the Department of Health,
Education and Welfarento investigate the continuous segaegated
wing of the hospital?
A No. I do not know of this.
Q You spoke of theaters. It is a fact that the
theaters did not accept Negro patrons on the same basis of the white
until after the enactment of the Civil Rights Act of 1964?
A I was not in Dublin. I do not know, but since I
have been in Dublin it has become desegregated though.
Q You have been in Dublin since when?
A Since the first of ftpril.
Q Now, as to Negro jurors on grand and traverse
juries, that is a county function?
A County and State, yes sir. I am not too familiar
with that.
Q You don't have anything to do with that at all,
do you?
A No, I do not.
Q Your testimony that there are Negro grand and
traverse jurors is based upon hearsay, is that right?
A Yes, since I have no official connection with it.
397
^ Now, I believe you testified that there were Negro
Baliffs?
a
Q
A
Q
Chief Josey?
A
Yes, I did.
That is in respect to the Superior Court, isn't it?
Yes.
That is not in respect to the Recorder's Court or
No
Q There are no Negro baliffs in the Recorder's court?
A No.
Q Are you a membef of the National Association of
City Managers?
A Yes, I am. It is the International Managers -
International City Managers' Association.
Q International?
A Yes.
l|R. MOORE: Your Honor, I would like to ask this
question. It might be a little irrelevant.
Q City Managers are usually a favorite of smaller
towns, isn't it?
A No, sir, this is not true.
Q Isn't there some type of population or statistics
relative to efficiency or inefficiency?
A No, sir. Some of the largest cities we have in the
United States have City Managers. They vary anywhere from 1500
398
population to a half a ^million.
Q Did you attend the meeting with Sheriff Bussell,
the FBI Agents, Mr. Walden, Oolice Chief Josey here and Lt.DeLoach,
sometimes called Chief, about a large march or demonstration in
Dublin?
A The meeting was held in my office, but Chief Josey
was not present. The rest of them you named were present.
ference to?
MR. MOBRE: Your Honor, I was under the impression, based
upon lieutenant DeLoachjs testimony, that the meeting was on a
Saturday. Now, I could be wrong.
this witness here would be handicapped. Tell him what date it was
and then it will refresh his recollection.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, the only thing I have to go on
is that Lt. DeLoach testified, and I am trying to repeat his
Q Chief Josey was absent?
A Yes, sir.
%Q Is that based on your best recollection?
A Was this on Tuesday afternoon of August 3rd?
Q Were there any other meeting?
THE COURT: Well, he is trying to familarize himself
with dates. What^date was that particular meeting you have re
THE COURT: What day of the month, do you know that?
MR. MOORE: That must have been about ---
THE COURT: (Interposing) I want to get the date because
testimony correctly, that the meeting was held on Saturday befofe
the march.
MR. HAYES: He didn't say that. On cross examination you
asked him about smme meeting, and he said he didn't think it was
held on that day, but that he thought it might have been held on
Saturday, but he didn't say it was held on Saturday.
THE COURT: Well,lets get the date. I suppose the witness
wants that date.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
MR. HAYES: I started to question him about it before
and you said that you didn't think it was necessary. The meeting
was held on the 3rd day of August, the date preceding the parade,
and that was the only meeting held, and the Chief of Police was
not there.
THE COURT: Well, if you will agree to that. Of course,
he is not testifying, but he is stating his recollection of the
evidence. Now, if that is the date you have in mind, then you
can ask him if that is the particular date you have in mind.
MR. MOORE: Well, maybe this will clear it up.
q Mr. Lane, was there more than one meeting held
involving these pepple that I have just mentioned concerning this
parade?
A Involving this parade?
^ Yes, sir?
A No. There was only one meeting.
400
present?
Q Then we can agree that it was on Tuesday, I suppose?
A It was on Tuesday, August 3rd.
Q All right. And you say that the Chief was not
A That's correct.
Q The Chief had not left town at this time, had he?
A Yes, he had.
Q When did he leave town?
THE COURT: That is the same meeting, isn't it. Didn't
he say that the Chief hdd gone on his vacation that same week?
THE WITNESS: The Chief left the preceding Sunday around
3.30 in the afternoon, as well as I can remember.
Q All right, the Chief hdd left town?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was it your advice that the Chief leave town?
A Not at my advice, no.
Q Did you suggest it?
A No, absolutely not. He had a vacation planned/
He had a free place to stay where he went on his vacation and
we had talked about it before and when we heard about the march
I told him that I thought he should go ahead and take his vacation.
We discussed it. I was in agreement with him taking it, since
I didn't know when he would be able to get these same accomodations
® again that he was offered at this particular time by a friend
of his, and this is the reason he went on his vacation at this
time.
Q And this worked out co-advantageous to the city?
A No, sir. I would not say that.
THE COURT: What was that? I didn't catch the question.
What did you ask him?
MR. MOORE: I asked him was it not also coadvantage
to the city for the Chief's vacation to come up at that parti-
c ular time.
THE WITNESS: I think we did a very good job in providing
law protection, but I think we would have done equally as good
a job or maybe a little better had the Chief been there.
Q But you haven't had a demonstration of this sire
with the Chief present in town, have you?
A We have not, no.
Q Then you don't have any basis to make that judgment,
do you?
A I am basing it on his ability as a Police Chief.
Q But you haven't had any experience with his
handling large demonstrations, have you?
A We have not.
THE COURT: All right, you may come down.
MR. HAYES: Let me ask him one question.
THE COURT: All right.
401
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
402
BY MR. HAYES:
Q This attorney, by other witnesses, has inferred
that the Chief was a hot-head and you had sent him out of town
during this period of time. Is that true?
A That is not true. This is what I tried to clarify
in my answer just now.
Q All right, that's all.
THE COURT: All right, you may go down.
MR. MOORE: Just a couple of questions.
.................. RECROSS EXAMINATION ......................
BY MR. MOORE:
Q Mr. Lane, is the Human Relations Committee about
to dissolve?
A This is a little hard to answer. The Council
right now has taken under advisement the appointment of a new
committee or either appointing this committee with possible
additions or something. They are studying right now the possibility
of changing this committee, since it seems to be - or a lot of
people seem to think that they don't have any legal standing,
or something, which I still don't think they will have, but they
do have this under advisement right now. The present committee
is not dissolved, no. It is still active.
the court: All right.
403
MR. HAYES: Judge, I hate to keep doing this, but there
is one other question in rebuttal to that.
THE COURT: Well, it seems to be in order for the last
two or three days for both of you to keeping jumping up one behind
the other.
MR. HAYES: Well, may I ask him one question?
THE COURT: Yes, go ahead.
.................. REDIRECT EXAMINATION .....................
BY MR. HAYES:
Q Do you have in your possession any demands made
upon the Me¥or and Board of Aldermen from this Human Relations
Committee?
A Yes, I do.
Q May I have it?
A Yes, sir.
Q What is this?
A This is a list of demands that was presented to
my office. I was not in the office at the time, but the day of
the march Reuben Gamble, Bobbie Hill and I don't know who else --
I saw them come out of the office, but I don't know who else was
with them, although I understand there was some one else with
them, took these to my office and laid them on the desk and then
they went back and joined the march and left those with me.
THE COURT: That was just before the march commenced?
THE WITNESS: This was during the march?
THE COURT: This was during the march?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. They were near the end of the
march, or ra ther near the head of the march and got out of the
march and deposited that in my office and then rejoined the march.
THE COURT: They stopped by there during the march?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
Q Will you read this into the record?
A In its entirety?
Q Yes, sir?
A "From the Executive Committee of Dublin Branch of
the NAACP to Mayor and City Council regarding bill of demands.
(1) Immediate dismissal of Chief Josey for gross
neglect of duty, failure to act in time of crisis, continuous
sanction of police arrests and intimidation and brutality on
the part of his department. Blaten bious and discrimination.
(2) Immediate dismissal of Officer Dent Jackson and
replacement with another qualified and acceptable Negro for the
following reasons: Because he does not have the sufficient
educational back ground to adequate interpret and enforce the law
and enforcing segregation, aiding and abetting the brutality of
a Civil Rights Worker.
(3) End of segregation in employment city hall, fire
department, recreation and municipal possessions.
(4) Demand of sewer systems in all Negro communities.
(5) End to city enforced and sanctioned segregation in
Stubss Park and other recreational facilities that are financed
with city funds.
(6) End of segregated school systems.
(7) End of segregation in employment at the Welfare
Department.
(8) Immediate meeting with the Mayor and City Council
for the formation of a Bi-racial Committee sanctioned and approved
by the Negro community.
MR. HAYES: Your witness.
THE COURT: Well, I think everybody is finished with him.
All right, you may go down. Call your next witness. Any other
witness?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir. The Marshal has gone to get the
next witness.
THE COURT: All right.
406
J. H. APPLEGATEt SWORN FOR THE DEFENDANTS, TESTIFIED.
ON DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HAYES:
Q Will you state your name?
A James H.Applegate.
Q By whom are you employed?
A Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Q How long have you been so employed?
A Eighteen years,next month.
Q On the first day of August, 1965, were you in
Dublin, Laurens County, Georgia?
A Yes, I was.
Q Where were you on that date in Dublin?
A I was in front of the City Hall most of the day,
or most of the day. I mean that morning.
Q Can you specify the time?
A I arrived there about 10:30 A. M., and stayed
there until about 12:30, P. M.
Q Will you state to the court what you observed
during that period of time?
A I observed a group that eventually numbered about
35, the best I recall, who were picketing, walking back and forth
on the side walk directly in front of the City Hall.
Q Were they colored or white?
407
A Tftere was one white boy and a white girl, the rest
were colored, or Negroes.
Q Did you recognize the white boy?
A Yes.
Q Who was he?
A Maxium Rice.
Q Do you know where that individual was from?
A Yes, sir. I am not sure, Your Honor, whether this
would result in -- or enter into the results of an investigation,
which I conducted.
Q That's all right. I will withdraw the question.
THE COURT: All right, he withdrew the investigation.
THE WITNESS: It would be from the investigation I made,
the results of an investigation I made, and I am not suppose to
testify as to that.
THE COURT: Well, I wouldn't want you to testify to that,
and Iknow j[he wouldn't either, and he said he withdrew the question.
MR. HAYES: His attorney says that it is all right for
him to answer.
MR. MOORE: We don't object, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, I understand the government doesn't
wnat those kind of questions answered, but there is the attorney
over there for the Government. He told me that he was representing
the Government.
Q Do you know from any personal conversation you have
408
had with Maxium Rice where he is from?
A Yes, sir, he is from Michigan.
Q How long has he been in Dublin, Laurens County,
Georgia?
A I don't really know the length of time.
Q Mr. Applegate, did you observe anything other
than the picketing that you have described?
A I observed the officers present and also a number
of spectators gathered down on Church street below the City Hall.
Q How many officers were present at that time?
A The best I can recall, I saw possibly seven city
policemen around the city hall, outside, and I did observe some
city policemen inside the City Hall. I don't know how many were
there. Two GBI Agents, deputy sheriffs, and of course some FBI
Agents were there.
Q Was Chief Josey peesent?
A Yes, he was.
Q Did you observe anything further than what you
have testified to?
A Yes, sir. As I say, I observed the crowd, which
most of them were gathered across the street on Church street
and then a group, oh, possibly six, eight or ten of the younger
spectators started across the street toward the pickets and I
observe Chief Josey go down and request them to move back across
409
the street, which they did. He personally went down there, and
of courese there was also a group of Negro boys that started
across the street toward the picketing and he also had them
moved bakk across Church street there. _ — — —
Q Now, the first group you described, were they white
or colored?
A They were white boys.
Q Did you, or could you tell by their movement what
or where they were moving to?
A Well, as I stated, they were moving toward the
pickets, toward the City Hall.
Q Were they making any comments that you could hear?
A No. I noticed one or two of them had a coca cola
bottle in their hands. I didn't see any weapons or anything, but
they were boys in T-shirts, young looking boys.
Q Were the coca cola bottles empty or full?
A Empty.
Q How were they carrying these bottles?
A In their hands.
Q And did you hear - What did Chief Josey then do?
A Well, he returned. In fact, I was standing with
him right in front of the City Hall most of the time while the
picketing was going on. We were standing right close to them.
I don't particularly recall any other activity of the Chief.
410
Q Well, what did he do with reference to this crowd
o f white boys with coca cola bottles?
A Well, as I previously stated, he moved them back
across the street, the same group.
Q Did you hver hear any orders or demand that he made
to them at that time?
A No, I didn't, because I remained up near the city
hall and 1 couldn't hear what the Chief said to the crowd or to
any of the boys at that time. I could not hear that conversation.
Q Were there any arrests on that date?
A To my knowledge, no, not while I was there.
Q On the 3rd day of August, 1965, were you in the
City of Dublin,Georgia?
A Yes, I was.
Q Were you in the City Manager's Office during that
date?
A Yes, sir.
Q State the reasons for being there?
A I don't recall who invited me, whether it was the
City Manager, or Vernon DeLoach. I don't recall, but I was invited
to be in his office about 2:00 o'clock and I appeared there, in
the City Manager's office.
Q What took place?
A I over heard a discussion at that time - well, there
were city officers there, GBI Agents, Sheriff Bussell, Judge Ward,
yourself, Arthur Lane, City Manager, discussing what officers
would be available and how they would be handled on the march
which was to take place the next day from the City Hall to the
County courthouse. The best I can recall Vernon DeLoach that
the city could have about twenty officers, or twenty-four, Sheriff
Bussell said that he and his deputies could get about six deputies,
and Lt. balden and Lt. Spurlin, GBI Agents, planned to be present,
and the plan was to have those officers spaced as close as they
could from the city hall to the county court house during the
march, which was planned for the following day. Of course, the
discussion of the purpose of the officers being there would be to
prevent any of the spectators, anyone in the crowd and causing
any disturbance or hurting anyone.
Q I will ask you whether or not you attending the
briefing that was held previous to the march by the city police
the next day?
A No, I didn't. I was not in Dublin the next day.
Q How many occasions have you, approximately how
many occasions have you been in Dublin since the first day of
July, 1965?
A Well ---
Q (Interposing) Strike that. Let me ask you this: Have
you observed any of the Civil Rights deonstratinns carried on in
the City of Dublin?
412
A The only one was August 1st, Sunday morning.
Q Would you say from your experience as an FBI Agent
and what you observed on that date -0----
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I object.
MR. HAYES: He don't even know what I am going to ask
him.
THE COURT: I was wondering myself. Lets wait until he
ask the question, and then you can raise your objection and I
will rule on it.
Q Do you know from your years of experience as an
FBI Agent, some eighteen years, from what you observed in J&blin
on the 1st day of August, 1965, whether or not these demonstrators
on the date of August 1st, 1965, had adequate police protection?
MR. MOORE: I object to that, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: I can't answer.
THE COURT: I think his answer took care of your objection.
He said he couldn't answer that question.
MR. HAYES: All right, your witness.
................. CROSS EXAMINATION ..........................
BY MR. MOORE:
Q Mr. Applegate, what time did the demonstrations
take place on August 1st?
413
A The group arrived there approximately at 11:30,
11:25 or 11:30 or thereabouts.
Q How lnng did the demonstration continue?
A Until about a quarter after 12:00 the best I
recall.
Q Do you recall whether or not the Chief of Police
was at that meeting on August 3rd?
A He was not at the meeting on August 3rd.
MR. MOORE: That's all*
THE COURT: All right, you may go down.
T. D. SIPLE, SWORN FOR THE DEFENDANTS, TESTIFIED.
ON DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HAYES:
Q Will you state your name?
A Trent D. Siple.
Q By whom are you employed?
A Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Q How long have you been so employed?
A Seventeen years.
Q Were you in the City of Dublin, Laurens County,
Georgia, on the 4th day of August, 1965?
A Yes, I was.
Q Did you observe a Civil Rights Demonstration
march on that day?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you take any pictures of that march?
A I did.
Q Do you have those pictures?
A Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Were are you stationed new?
THE WITNESS: Columbia, now, Your Honor. I used to be
in Vidalia.
THE COURT: Judge Wyche is the judge over there.
THE WITNESS: I haven't met him.
414
415
MR. HAYES: Your Honor, these pictures.
Q First, how many pictures are these?
A Eighteen.
MR. HAYES: I would like to have these marked for identi
fication during the recess and not take up the time now.
THE COURT: If that is all right with counsel.
MR. MOORE: That will be all right.
MR. HAYES: I will have these pictures identified and
will introduce them in evidence and I have no other questions
for this witness.
THE COURT: All right, that is goingto be five minutes
all right.
MR. MOORE: I don't have any objections to these pictures,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. That was the witness that you
wanted? He said he had no objections to them, so that finishes
with this witness, don't it?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Then you may be excused.
MR. HAYES: That is, as far as I am concerned.
THE COURT: I was going to come to him. Have you any
uestqions that you want to ask this witness?
MR. MOORE: I would like to just ask him one question,
Your Honor.
416
THE COURT: All right.
........ -....... CROSS EXAMINATDN.. ..................... .
BY MR. MOORE:
q Mr. Siple, what do the numerals on there mean,
one, two and three?
A That is to identify the individual, On the back
is a number that corresponds as to the identity of the individual.
THE COURT: All right, now, I am going to let him go.
You all don't need him any more in the trial of the case, is
that correct.
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Is that right? All right, you may go.
THE MARSHAL: Does that apply to both FBI Agents?
MR. HAYES: No, I want to keep Mr. Applegate.
THE COURT: Well, this witness can go.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: If you see Judge Wyche, give him my regards.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I certainly will.
THE COURT: Well, it is 12:10 now, and I am going to take
out until 2:30.
THE MARSHAL: Take a ;recess until 2:30.
417
(NOTE: Accordingly, a recess was then had from 12:10
P. M., until 2:30, P. M., at which time the proceedings were
resumed as follows.)
THE COURT: All right, you may proceed.
MR. HAYES: The only thing further that I have at this
time is this: In these two motions to remand these cases back
to the Recorder's Court of the City of Dublin, we have asked
fcr attorney's fees.
THE COURT: Who has asked for Attorney's fees?
MR. HAYES: The City of Dublin.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HAYES: There are provisions which we will submit
authority on to the court later. Your Honor said you would pass
on these motions later.
THE COURT: I want you all to make arrangements with the
Court Reporter about getting the record and then after I get the
record I will read it over and pass on all the motions and everything
at that time.
MR. HAYES: Now, in addition to that, there is a motion
to dismiss in the third case of the petitions for removal, two
cases, and we, or rather the City of Dublin,has asked for attorney's
fees in that case.
THE CUBURT: All right.
418
MR. HAYES: In the case of Reuben Gamble Versus William
Josey, as you know William Josey has filed an answer and a counter
claim and on that counter claim we have asked for attorney's fees.
What I would like to know is do you wish me to present evidence
on attorney fees?
THE COURT: Certainly, if you are asking for it. That
applies to both sides. If you are asking for attorney fees I want
to get evidence from you too.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I haven't asked for attorney f
fees yet.
THE COURT: Well, it is up to you. If you do, I will
hear evidence from you to that effect.
MR. MOORE: I am strongly considering doing that, Your
Honor. I do propose to file certain motions to this so-called
counter claim and the remand motion and to dismiss.
THE COURT: Well, I want to get all of this in now before
you close this case.
MR. MOORE: I don't think there is any authacrity at all
for him asking for attorney fees.
THE COURT: Well, I tell you what you do, I would like
to hear from you on attorney fees, if you are asking for any,
before we take out the trial of this case at this time, because
I don't want to hear any more evidence after you all finish the
evidence in this case.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir. Call Judge Harold E.Ward.
419
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I have a motion. We object
strongly to any evidence being put on respecting attorney fees
because (1) there are no facts alleged in the petition sufficient
to show any entitlement to attorney fees, and (2) Defendant Josey
has no standing whatsoever to maintain a counter claim, and the
evidence is very clear that the plaintiffs are entitled to relief
any way, but there is no showing any special damage to Defendant
Josey in respect to attorney fees, nor could there be any.
THE COURT: Well, like I said, I have not heard any
motions and I am not going to hear any now, but I will hear the
evidence, and I will pass on them later.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, we think it is irreleva nt and
improper for the court to take evidence on attorney fees now.
THE COURT: I am not deciding anything now, but I am
going to hear the evidence on it, so that when I get ready to
hear the motions and to decide the case I will have all of that
behind me instead of coming back and hearing more evidence, if
I should decide with Josey. And 1 want you to give me some law
on that.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir. We have got it.
THE COURT: And I want some law from your side of
the case also.
MR. MOORE: I have attached to my motion for a preliminary
injunction a memorandum which we think is adequate.
420
THE COURT: All right, and if you want to add anything
else, you may do so. What I want you to do mainly is to see the
Court Reporter, Mr. Watson, both sides and make arrangements for
getting the record.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir.
THE COURT: All right, you may proceed.
421
HAROLD E. WARD. RECALLED BY THE DEFENDANTS, TESTIFIED.
ON REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HAYES;
Q Judge Ward, I hand you case number 661, now
pending in this court, with the petition and the answer of the
defendant in a counter claim, and I hand you three petitions
for removal designated case No. 1733 and case No. 1734 and case
number 1735, along with the two motions to remand and a motion
ibr dismissal concerning those three cases, and I also hand you
a motion for further relief to protect the jurisdiction of this
court, rights of petitioners, and I will ask you to please examine
those. First, I will ask you are you familiar with those pleadings?
A Yes, I have read the pleadings.
Q Are you familiar with the various motions and
the answers and counter claims concerning those pleadings?
A I have read all the pleadings on the part of the
plaintiffs, and I have read the defensive pleadings on the part
of the City of Dublin, and on the part of the defendant Josey.
Q I believe you have remained in the court room
during the entire trial of the consolidation of these cases?
A Practically all the time, yes, sir.
Q I refer you to the first case I handed you, 611 --
A (Interposing) Yes, sir.
Q Can you tell the court what, in your opinion, would
422
be reasonable attorney fees for Mr. Josey in answering and defend
ing and presenting evidence in that case?
MR. MOORE: I object to that, Your Honor, on the ground
there has been no proper foundation laid that the witness on the
stand is competent to testify as to any attorney fees.
THE COURT: Well, you might ask the Judge just what his
experience has been.
MR. HAYES: Well, that has already been done, Judge.
RHE COURT: Well, whether or not he has been a practicing
attorney and what he is now.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir.
Q Will you state -- First, what do you now do?
A Judge of the Superior Courts of the Dublin Judicial
Circuit.
Q How long have you been Judge?
A Since December 28th, 1960.
Q And what did you do before that date last mentioned?
A From January 1st, 1957 until December 28th, 1960,
I served as Solicitor General of the Dublin Judicial Circuit.
Q And previous to that?
A I served for three years as Laurens County Attorney,
two years prior to that I served as attorney for the town c£ East
Dublin, and at the time I was Laurens County^ attorney and attorney
for East Dublin and Solicitor General I was engaged in the practice
of law.
423
q When were you admitted to the Bar?
A I was admitted to the Bar on or about April 7th,
1949, and graduated from the University of Georgia School of Law
in August, 1949.
q Was that the STate of Georgia?
A The state of Georgia, yes, sir.
q What courts are you a member of? What courts
are you permitted to practice in?
A The Supreme Court of Georgia, Georgia Court of
Appeals, and the Federal District Courts of the Southern District
of Georgia.
q How amy years have you actually practiced law?
A I have been admitted to the Bar - I started
practicing law on January 1st, 1950, and I have either been in
the active practice of law or Judge of the Superior Courts at
all times since then.
Q As Judge of the Superior Court, how many cases
have you disposed of in the past four years?
A In Laurens County\ in excess of 2,000, and in
the other three counties I would say probably a thousand.
Q Do you handle divoree cases?
A Yes.
q In handling of these divorce cases, is it necessary
that the Court sometimes award attorney fees?
424
A Yes, the court is required to award attorney fees
for the benefit cf counsel, for the benefit of the plaintiff, or
the wife.
you handled, since you have been Judge?
A In Laurens County, in 1964,there were about 140
filed, and I would say during 1964 probably 70 were granted, the
others having gone back together or dismissed for some cause.
Q That was in Laurens County?
A Yes, sir, for 1964.
MR. HAYES: Judge, I feel like that qualifies him.
THE COURT: You may go ahead.
MR. MOORE: It is over our objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You might ask him about any other matters
concerning attorney fees, as to him awarding any other fees.
Q Are you familiar with the awarding of any other
matters, other than divorce cases?
THE COURT: And the amount of fees, if he is familiar
with fees in the general practice of law. Uou might ask that
also?
Q Approximately how many of those type cases have
MR. HAYES: All right, sir.
Q Are you familiar - in disposing of any other cases
in your court, do you coneern yourself, or does the court concern
itself with attorney fees?
425
A Not particularly, no, other than in divorce cases.
Q Are you familiar with the minimum fee schedule
as prescribed or set up or recommended by the State Bar of
Georgia?
A Not in detail. Certain features of it I would be
familiar with.
Q Are you familiar with the recommended minimum
fee scale as set up by the Dublin Judicial Bar Association?
A I know the prevailing fees generally charged in
the Dublin Circuit, yes.
THE COURT: I think that will oualify him.
Q Now, with reference to attorney fees requested
by the defendant, Josey, in case Number 611, would you give
this court --
THE COURT: (Interposing) That case is in favor of
Josey and against whom?
MR. HAYES: The cases brought is actually styled as
Reuben Gamble and Rosa Lee Kirkland on behalf of themselves and
others similar situated, as plaintiffs, vs William Josey, individ
ually and as Chief of Police of the City of Dublin, Georgia, his
agents, servants, employees, sucdessors and all person in active
concert and participation with him.
THE COURT: In favor of the plaintiffs against the
defendants.
426
MR. HSYES: Yes, sir, and I am asking him now for the
defendant. Josey, what the reasonable attorney fees would be
for Joeey filing his answer and presenting his case to the court.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: Now, I could better tell -- I certain
that this took quite a bit of time in the preparation of it,
not only in the trial of the case, but I could better tell if
I had some idea of the time involved.
THE COURT: You mean in the preparation of it?
THE WITNESS: In the preparation of it, yes, sir.
MR. HAYES: I think he is qualified, Your Honor.
THE COURT: It will be necessary, as he says, and I
think it is well taken, that he find out by evidence from you
as to just how much time you have spent on the preparation of
this case. So, you might let him step down and you get on the
stand. I am not telling you how to run your case. But for you
to get on the stand and testify as to just how much time you
have spent.
MR. MOORE: Now, Your Honor, we object to this proceeding.
May I make a suggestion?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. MOORE: I don't know what Mr. Hayes intends to put on,
but this matter can be gone into on depositions*
THE COURT: Now, I am going to hear it right now. Now
is as good a time as any other.
427
MR. MOORE: Well, I object to this proceeding. I submit
that it is irrelevant.
THE COURT: Well, I don't think so. I want to hear it,
and like I said, if it is not relevant then there won't be any
harm done. If it is, then I will be in a position to pass on it.
I think I will hear the evidence right now.
MR. HAYES: Come down, Judge Ward. Your Honor, I call
myself as a witness. I have already been sworn in this case.
THE COURT: All right.
428
BEVERLY B. HAYES. RECALLED IN BEHALF OF DEFENDANTS, TESTIFIED.
ON REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Your Honor, I have practiced law since 1949, as I
have previously testified. These cases - this case that I
questioned him about, this case, Civil Action 661 - I said 611
but it is 661, in this court, entitled Reuben Gamble and Rosa
Lee Kirkland, on behalf of themselves and others similarly
situated, Plaintiffs, Versus William Josey, individually, and
as Chief of Police of the City of Dublin, Georgia, his agents,
servants, employees, successors and all parties in active concert
and participation with him, as defendant, The show cause order
was signed on the 16th day of August, 1965, and was served on
Chief Nosey, I believe, that same date.
MR. MOORE: I object to that.
THE COURT: Object to what?
MR. MOORE: The return service would be the highest
and best evidence as to when it was served.
THE COURT: Well, I guess he is right about that.
THE WITNESS: This case was served on William Josey,
Police Chief of the City of Dublin, Georgia, on the 17th day of
August, 1965. At that time Chief Josey called me and turned the
pleadings over to me. I spent approximately - well, I spent
three whole days researching what I considered the important
law in this case, and I spent one day preparing the answer, four
429
full dayS preparing this particular case.
THE COURT: Well, did you examine the witnesses, your
witnesses?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir. I examindd the Chief of Police
thoroughly. I examined all the witnesses that have been presented
in this case, with the exception of one of the FBI Agents, Mr.
Trent Siple, who included - shall I list them?
THE COURT: Well, it might be a good idea?
THE WITNESS: Judge Harold Ward, Chief Josey, GBI Agent
Walden. Jim Applegate.
THE COURT: Applegate, was he the FBI Agent?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. I talked to him. I did not
talk to Aggnt Trent, or Siple, I believe his name is. I investi
gated and talked to some nine city policemen. Sergeant Harden
is the oity witness that we haven't used down here. I talked to
the City Manager, Mr. Arthur Lane, concerning this case. I spent
approximately three or four hours at the scene of the picketing
and was alreddy very familiar with the area anyway. In addition
to that have attended court the 25th, 26th and the 27th in the
t rial of this case along with the consolidation of the other
three cases. Now, with reference to these <jther three cases
entitled "City of Dublin, Georgia, Vs Reuben Gamble, etal.,
Number 1735, and the City of Dublin Vs Shirley Bolden and Herman
Kirkland, No. 1733, and the City of Dublin Vs Gloria Outler,etal.,
430
Number 1734”, I spent two days studying and preparing myself —
well, actually studying the law on it first, and then investi
gating these various witnesses. I will say this, that the evidence
in these cases, the investigation and interrogation of the witnesses
was the same, or approximately the same, as the interrogation and
investigation of the witnesses in the William Josey case. The
acts and actions of these defenda nts were the same, the same
defendants, approximately the same, involved in this case, and
actually the cases, the evidence and all was approximately the
same in both cases. I filed these two petitions for removal and
one petition for dismissal and then I have spent Wednesday and
Thursday and today in court trying to defend these cases. That
is all I can say.
THE COURT: And then you are going to Harold back up.
MR. MOORE: I want to cross examine this witness, Your
H0nor.
THE COURT: I am going to give you a chance. I am not
going to cut anybody off. I have been on the Bench a long time
and I have never cut anybody off yet. When he gets through cross
examining you, then your idea is to put Harold Ward back up on
the stand.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
431
BY MR. MOORE:
Q Now, Mr. Hayes, the removal petition was served,
in your presence, on the Chief of Police and Recorder on Monday,
August 16th, 1965, wasn't it?
A That's right.
Q And at that time you elected to disregard the
removal petition, didn't you?
A I felt like that they did not apply in those cases
and we did continue to try the cases.
Q And at that time the law had been read to you,
Title 28, U. S. C. A. 1446(e), is that correct?
A That section was not read to me.
Q Did you redd that section?
A I read that section.
q And after having read that section you elected
to continue, didn't you?
A I did.
Q As a matter of fact, you advised the Recorder to
continue trying the cases, didnjt you?
A I possibly did. I notice that he testified from
the stand that he continued on his own motion and didn't ask me
for an opinion. I am sure I advised him to continue trying the
cases.
Which necessitated filing a motion for further
relief to restrain you from continuing the cases after they had
432
been remoeed to this court?
A I can't answer that. I don't know whether it
necessitated that or not.
Q Well, a motion for further relief was filed in
all three cases, is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q You are the City Attorney, are you not, there in
the City of Dublin?
A 1 am.
Q And, as City Attorney, you have access to the
police and to these officers, is that correct?
A That's correct, along with any other matter con
cerning the City's legal affairs, and any other attorney has the
same access to the police officers.
Q And as to the factual evidence that you adduced
here, you were familiar with that in your roll as prosecuting
attorney for the City of Dublin, Georgia?
A I was not.
Q You mean you heard none of the evidence that was
introduced here when you tried the cases over in the City Court,
the Recorder's Court?
A I heard Sergeant Harden testify.
Q You have not introduced him in this hearing,have
you?
A He is here. He maybe produced and he may not, I
dont' know. It depends on what you do. He has not testified today.
433
Q All right. What are the jurisdictional issues
in this case, in a removal case?
A Whfit are the issues?
Q The Jurisdictional issues?
A The jurisdictional issues is only one, as far as
my position is concerned. Of course, I am entitled - when you
asked me if this other attorney read me the law - he is entitled
to his opinion as to the interpretation of the law and I am
entitled to my interpretation of the law. The jurisdictional
feature in this case, as far as I interpret the law, is that
this court has no jurisdiction over any of these cases in the
petition for removal. The petition itself shows on its face, your
petition, that these individuals are charged with a violation of
an ordinance of the City of Dublin. It has nothing to do with
civil rights, and the City of Dublin, a municipal court,tahich is
not a state court, has authority to try those cases and this court
does not.
Q Now, that is your complete statement?
A I don’t know whether that is my complete statement
or not, but that is my answer to your question.
■v£ There is nothing that you want to add to your
answer?
A As far as I know, I don't.
Q Now, you called on the Attorney General of Georgia,
434
A I did not.
Q Did Mr. Wilkes call the Attorney general of Georgia?
A He did not. Wait a minute. Let me take that back.
I don't know what Mr. Wilkes did. As far as I know, he did not.
Q Mr. Peyton Hawse was peesent in court on Wednesday,
August 25th, wasn't he?
A He was.
Q And that was for the purpose of consulting with
you?
A It was not at my request, and as far as I a know
it was not from a request of any pesson of the City of Dublin.
How Mr. Hawse got here, I do not know. I was glad to see him.
He told me that he would be here, and I asked him if he would
like to participate in the cases, or sit in on the cases, but
he did not see fit to do so, but he was not here at my request,
and he was not here at Chief Josey's request and he was not here
at the request of any official of the City of Dublin so far as
I know. I feel like that if some one had asked him to be here
I would have been informed because the cases have been entirely
in my hands.
Q This is the first time you have had occasion to
participate in a civil rights case of this sort, is it not?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, is it your testimony that you, yourself,
435
prepared the answer?
A That is my testimony. I did prepare the answer
and I prepared all of the pleadings in this case.
Q Did you procure from the Attorney General, or
from the Solicitor ovee in Americus, a copy of his petition?
A 1 have some information that I got from Mr.
Freeman Leverett in Elberton,Georgia. To be perfectly frank
with you, I didn't get it in until the day I was drawing this
and I actually don't know what is in it, but I do have some. I
have nothing from the Attorney General's Office, and I have nothing
from Americus,Georgia.
Q Now, Mr. Freeman Leverette is a Special Assistant
Attorney General of the State of Georgia?
A I do not know.
Q You have no knowledge?
A I know that he has been on some cases for the
State but I don't know what his official capacity is.
Q It is with civil rights cases, isn't it?
A I do not know.
Q Do you know, of your own knowledge, if he handled
the cases over in Americus, Georgia, involving essentially the
same issues that we have here?
A I have been informed that he does.
Q And you called upon him because of his expert
knowledge in that field?
436
A I did.
Q And he assisted you?
A No, he didn't assist me. I just called him - he
was contacted and was asked if he had any information that would
assist me in this case, and he furnished me some citations, but
like I say I have not had a chance to thoroughly go over.
Q Now, your pleadings are not supported by memorandum
of citations, are they?
ft I feel like they are.
Q You have not filed a written memorandum?
A I have not.
Q In either of the cases, have you?
A I am prepared to present the law in these cases
on my position now.
Q I say, you hove not filed a written memorandum?
A I have not filed one, no.
Q You and Judge Ward are buddies, is that correct/
A Well, we are mighty good friends.
^ You have been knowing each other for a long while?
A That's right.
Q Associate with each other very frequently?
A We do.
Q Where are you staying while you are in Dublin?
A While I am in Dublin?
437
Q Pardon me. In Brunswick?
A I am staying at the Palms Motel.
Q Is Judge Ward staying at the same place?
A He is.
Q Do you share the same room?
A We do not.
Q Do you have a room on the same floor?
A We ha ve, we do.
Q Is it near your room?
A It is adjoining my room.
Q Have you been talking to him about this case in
the course of this trial?
A I have talked to Judge Ward continuously along
with these other witnesses since - or even before and especially
since the 16th day of August, 1965.
Q And conferred as to how you should handle the
case?
A I have discussed the cases with him. I will say
thts caee, whether it is good or bad, I have tried this case. I
have presented it and this is my pleadings and the decisions are
mine. Now, I have discussed the case with Judge Ward every since
we have been in Brunswick.
Q And approximately how ma ny hours have you spent
in discussing it with Judge WardZl
A Well, I can't answer that question.
438
Q But it has been constantly?
A I wouldn't say it was constant, no.
Q But it has been daily and at night, hasn't it?
A tie have discussed the case at the end of each
day's hearing?
MR. MOORE: No further questions.
THE COURT: All right, you may go down.
439
HAROLD E. WARD, RECALLED IN BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANTS, TESTIFIED.
ON REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HAYES:
Q Judge, whose pleadings are those in that petition?
Are they yours or mine?
A They are your pleadings.
MR. MOORE: I object to that, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I think it is in response to the question
that you propounded.
MR. MOORE: It indicates who signed the pleadings.
THE COURT: I know, but you asked the question.
MR. HAYES: May I proceed?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q Did you have anything to do with preparing those
pleadings?
A No, I did not.
Q Based on the testimony that I gave. You heard
my testimony, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Woufld you refer to the case of Reuben Gamble
Vs Josey?
A All right,I have it before me.
Q Do you feel like, under the facts that you now
have, you can set an amount that would be reasonable attorney
fees in that case for myself?
440
A I think, in setting attorney fees, you have to
consider the overall picture, since --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) I object to the witness'
testimony.
THE COURT: On what grounds?
MR. MOORE: On the grounds that the witness is disqualified
to give an opinion as to what would be an adequate amount for
attorney fees on the ground that£ the witness himself is interested
and is not disinterested and impartial.
THE COURT: I think because a lawyer consults, or talks
with another lawyer -- Well, I will take a personal illustration.
I have no hesitancy in talking to a lawyer about his case. I
will talk to any lawyer about his case. I will talk to anybody
about their cases, but that doesn't mean that I am going to be
influenced by it. I will let him go ahead. I think he is qualified.
MR. MOORE: four Honor —
THE COURT: (Interposing) I think he is qualified.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, we respectfully disagree.
THE COURT: Well, I have decided against you, and you
may proceed.
Q Judge Ward,can you answer my question?
A I feel like,in a matter of attorney fees, in this
particular instance, you will have to consider that you have
consolidated all of hhese cases. If they had been tried separately
I think the attorney fees would be much higher, because it would
441
more in the total number of days, but as to case No. 661, you
have seven days, three days you testified to as to research,
one day in the preparation of your pleadings, and three days in
court, presuming that you conclude today. Of my own personal
knowledge, it is 140 miles from Dublin to Brunswick. I think,
-- wait a minute. I would think the services for the seven days
in the preparation of the pleadings and being in court would be
worth a minmum of $300.00 a day, or $2100.00, and that your travel
would be worth a mininum of ten cents a mile, which would be &28.00,
and that your expenses in Brunswick woikld run about $25.00 per
day, which would be $75.00, or $2203.00 for case No. 661.
Q Would you now give your opinion, or your testimony,
as to the other three cases?
A As to the other three cases, then I would on^y
consider the two days research and the one day in the pleadings
because I have already taken into consideration the three days
in court, and based on the sime formula I would say the attorney
fees in those cases would be worth $900.00.
Q In each case?
A Now, your testimony was that your research was in
the three cases together, so I would say a total of $900.00 for
the three cases, and not individually.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
442
BY MR. MOORE:
Q Judge Ward, are you here on a subpoena?
A Yes.
Q Do you have a copy of the subpoena?
A Yes, I do. Now, what is on the reverse side maybe
my private notes and I rather you wouldn't read them.
MR. MOORE: Have you got the original of this subpoena,
Mr.Clerk?
THE MARSHAL: It has not been returned yet.
THE COURT: How is that?
THE MARSHAL: It has not been returned yet.
THE COURT: It has not been returned by the Marshal.
Q Judge Ward, you have never tried a civil rights
case, have you?
A No, I never have.
Q As a matter of fact, you have never been a judge
or an attorney involving constitutional jury exclusion?
A What?
q Constitutional jury exclusion?
A Jury exclusion?
Q Yes, sir?
A Well, I have granted a writ of habeas gorpus on
the basis of the fact that at Negro defendant had been coneicted
of murder in Laurens County and I granted a writ of habeas corpus
on the ground that there were no Negroes in the grand jury box
at that time.
Q Did you give him a new trial?
A Yes.
Q Is that case on appeal?
A It is to be tridd the week of September 28th.
Q Was that a murder case involving a Negro or
white?
A Killing a Negro child.
Q It did not involve a white person?
A No.
MR. MOORE: That's all.
MR. HAYES: You may come down, Judge.
THE COURT: All right, you may go down, Judge.
MR. HAYES: With that, Your Honor, we rest.
THE COURT: All right, you may proceed.
MR. MORE: Your Honor, I moee to exclude the witness'
testimony on the grounds previously stated?
443
THE COURT: I will overrule your motion.
444
JAUNITA TUCKER, SWORN FOR THE PLAINTIFFS, TESTIFIED.
ON DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MOORE:
Q State your name?
A Juanita Tucker.
THE COURT: I am not rushing you at all, but I would
like to know just for my own convenience as to how many moee
witnesses you have. I just want to know if there is a possibility
of getting through this afternoon.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I don't know exactly how late
we are going.
THE COURT: Well, if you will tell me how many witnesses
you have perhaps we can get an idea, that is, if you are in a
position to do so.
MR. MOORE:Your Honor, I have quite a few witnesses but
I can't say how many I am going to use.
THE COURT: That's all right. We will do the best we
can. You have got a clear field for tomorow. I do have smme
lawyers coming down from Macon this afternoon but I can handle
that all right. I can handle that tonight. I can handle that
Macon case tonight and then I will give you all day tomorrow.
MR. MOORE: I don't want to be presumptious, but may
I make a suggestion?
HHE COURT: Yes.
445
MR. MOORE: Would it inconvenience the court if we went
to, say, maybe 5:45. We might finish.
the Gourt: If you can finish by that time, if you
think you can finish by running until 5:45, why, I will run
to that time.
MR. MOORE: All right, sir.
Q Have you been sworn?
A Yes.
Q Will you state your name, and speak up so coujnsel
can hear you and so the Judge can hear you?
A My name is Juanita Tucker.
Q Where do you live, Miss Tucker?
A 120 Garner street, Dublin, Georgia.
Q And what is your age?
A Eighteen.
Q State whether or not you are a student?
A I am a student at Albany State College, at Albany,
Georgia.
Q And what year are you in school?
A I am Sophomore.
Q State whether or not you have engaged in picketing
in Dublin,Georgia?
A Yes, I have.
TQE COURT: Where did she say her home was, Albany? I
mean where is she going to school? At Albany?
446
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
Q Where did you engage in picketing?
A At Winn-Dixie.
Q And when was that?
A July 31st, 1965.
Q And where is the Winn-Dixie located?
A On Jefferson street.
Q State the purpose, if you know, of your picketing?
A We were picketing because of discriminatory tatics
against Negroes at Winn-Dixie.
Q Who, if anyone, associated with you in the picketing?
A You mean the names?
4 If you can recall, yes?
A I can't recall all of them because we would relieve
each other at one time or another.
Q At the time you were on the picket line, do you
have any recollection as to the number of pickets?
A At one particular time there were ten, but the
officers asked four or us to leave, and then there were six.
Q Did you leave?
A Yes.
Q State whether or not anything unusual occurred
during the course of the day?
447
A Yes.
Q What occurred that day?
A Two white men - there was a crowd of about 50 or
75 people, white men, standing at the entrance of Winn-Dixie,
and two men advanced from this crowd and came toward the picket
line and one came toward the front and the other one toward the
back, and the one that came toward the front advanced toward the
rear and as he did he hit pickets as he ran down the line.
Q State what happened to you, if anything?
A As he came to me he aimed to hit me. He was hitting
at my head, so I dodged, and he hit me on my shoulder and ■ knocked
me against a utility pole.
Q State whether or not the police were there at
that time?
A No. The police left the area, all police left the
area about two minutes before the incident.
Q State whether or not this crowd was there at the
time that the police were there?
A Yes, they were there at the time the police left.
Q State whether or not this crowd was engaging in
any type of activity?
A Well, they were talking, but as to what they were
saying I couldn't hear because the parking lot was between the
picket line and Winn-Dixie.
448
Q State whether or not you were picketing on the
side walk or on the parking lot?
A We were picketing on the side walk that they had
designated for picketing.
Q Were you carrying signs?
A Yes, I was.
Q What did your sign say, if anything?
A My sign said: "This store is fresh out of Negroes".
THE COURT: What did you say: "This store is fresh out
of Negroes."
THE COURT: Fresh out of Negroes?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: What does "fresh out of Negroes mean"?
THE WITNESS: This slogan,"This store is fresh out of
Negroes" was implying that no Negroes were shopping at this
particular store.
THE COURT: I see. 0. K.
Q What happened after the attack?
A After I was attacked I went - or after I was attacked
this man went on down the line advancing to the rear, and he hit
each picket that he passed, and he went back to the crowd and he
shook the hand of the Manager of Colonial Stores.
Q What did you do next, if anything?
A Well, the group of us talked for a few seconds
and decided that we would continue to picket until our time was up,
449
or until some one came to pick us up.
Q State whether or not some one came to pick you
up?
A Yes. We began to picket for 45 seconds or maybe
a minute and a car came and picked us up.
Q Afld who was driving that car?
A Mr. Roscoe Browder, an instructor at Oconee High
School.
q Where did you go then, if any place?
A We went back to the office.
Q What did you do then, if anything?
A Well, I talked with Mr.Gamble about the incident.
I told him about it.
Q State whether or not you were present in the City
of Dublin on August ilth, 1965?
A Yes, I was.
Q Were you present at or near Todd's Sinclair Service
Station?
A I was not in the picket line, but I passed several
times.
Q Did you haee occasion to observe the pickets there?
A Yes, I did.
Q Will you describe to the court the manner in which
the picketing was taking place?
450
A They all were very peaceful. I noticed maybe
six, or seven - no more than ten.
Q Wjiat did you see there at the area where that
picketing was taking place, if anything, at that time?
A What did I see in the area?
Q Yes?
A Well, everything was normal. I think I saw a patrol
car parked at the station. I am not too sure whether it was this
particular day or not.
Q Speak up, please, so the Judge and everybody can
hear you?
A I think I saw a patrol car at the service station,
but I am not sure whether it was Wednesday, the 11th, or another
day.
Q State whether or not you desired to participate
in the picketing?
A Yes, I desired to, but I was afraid to.
MR. HAYES: Your Honor, I thought I wouldn't object, but
I am going to have to object. He is leading this witness. This
"whether or not" doesn't take the question out of the leading
category, and by putting "whether or not" in his questions he
is leading the witness in every question he has asked.
THE COURT: Well, I think both of you have been very
g>od about leading today. There has been some objections, but
try not to lead the witness.
451
Q I believe you stated that you did not take part
in the picketing?
A No, sir.
Q State what your reason were, if any?
A Why I didn't picket?
"
A
Yes?
I was afraid to picket, really, because of the
lack of protection. The incident that happendd to me at Winn-Dixie
could have happened again.
Q On the following day, August 11th, 1965, did you
have occasion to go to the county jail?
A Yes, I did.
Q What was your purpose in going to the county jail?
A We had received messages from the county jail that
they were not getting the proper food.
Q Upon receipt of that message, what did you do,
if anything?
A We brought food down there.
Q What?
A We bought food and taken it down there to them.
Q What did you do with the food, if anything?
A When we got to the jail we were told that any
glass articles, or any cans --
MR. HAYES: (Interposing) Your Honor, I am sorry, I
can't hear the witness.
452
THE COURT: You will have to talk a little louder.
THE WITNESS: We were told that anything like glass
or tin could not be taken into the county jail, so we began to
empty the contents into paper cups, so they might have something
to eat.
Q Did you meet a deputy sheriff while you were at
the county jail?
A Yes, I did.
Q Do you recall the name of that deputy sheriff?
A It was James Williams, or James Williamson.
Q What enables you to recall the name of that deputy
sheriff?
A I asked him his nameq and he told me.
Q Do you remember anything about him?
A He talked a lot, and when Gloria Outler asked if
she could write a message so that he could take it to some of the
g iris to let them know which personal items belonged to whom, and
he told her no, you can't write a message, tell me and I will be
glad to tell the girl, and when she began to name out the personal
items he began to laugh and snicker.
Q Is that how you are able to remember his name?
A Yes.
MR. MOORE: The witness is with you.
THE COURT: Let me adcyou a question. Who induced you
453
to become a picket out there? Who asked you to become a picket
out there?
THE WITNESS: At Winn-Dixie?
THE COURT: Yes?
THE WITNESS: Well, I volunteered.
THE COURT: You volunteered?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Did you get any pament jlfor it?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: You haven't been paid?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: All right.
.................. CROSS EXAMINATION .......................
BY MR. HAYES:
Q Who were you picketing for?
A For the Negroes of Dublin, Georgia.
Q Can you be more specific?
A The Negro population of Dublin, Georgia.
Q Were you picketing for the NACCP?
A I was picketing because I am a member of the NACCP.
Q And you were picketing at the request of the MACCP?
A Yes.
Q
A
454
Q
A
Q
Are you a also a member of 6C0PE?
No. I have worked with SCOPE some.
Were any SCOPE Members picketing at Winn-Dixie at
the time you were?
A At the time I was attacked, no.
Q Well, were any of them picketing there at anytime?
A Yes.
Q Was Winn-Dixie being picket at that time by the
supervision of the NACCP and SCOPE?
A Yes, sir.
Q How about Southern Christain Leadership?
A Well, SCOPE Is a part of Southern Christain
Leadership.
Q Now, you say you were attacked on the 31st day of
July?
A Yes.
Q What time was it?
A It was approximately a quarter of seven.
Q In the morning?
A No.
Q What time of day?
A In the afternoon
Q In the afternoon?
A Yes.
Q On Saturday?
455
A Yes, sir.
Q Was the store open at that time?
A Yes.
Q Had there been any policemen there during the day?
A Yes, there had been.
Q Do you know what time Winn-Dixie store closed?
A Seven o'clock.
Q At seven o'clock?
A Yes, sir.
Q And this happened at seeen o'clock?
A No, it happened a quarter of seven.
Q What did the man do to you?
A Well, he hit me.
Q Where did he hit you?
A On my shoulder and arm.
Q Who was he?
A I don't know.
Q Who did you report this to?
A Mr. Gamble.
Q Did you report this to anyone else other than him?
A No, sir
Q You did say that you, at a later date, did go to
Todd's Service Station on August 11th?
A I passed there. I didn't go to it.
456
Q What were you passing there for?
A I passed to observe the picket line.
Q You passed to observe the picket line?
A Yes.
Q But you did not picket?
A No.
Q Because you were scared to picket?
A 1 was afraid to
Q But you were not afraid to go there?
A I didnjt go there. I passed there in a car.
Q You were not afraid to pass there, but you were
afraid to picket?
A Yes.
Q Do you know wno was picketing Todd's Service
Station on August 11th, 1965?
A No, I don't. There were different people at
different times.
Q What organizations were involved?
A NAACP.
Q Was there any other organization involved?
A SCOPE, I am sure.
Q Was Reuben Gamble involved in any way?
A In the picket line, you mean?
Q In the picket line?
A No.
457
q Was he involved in any other way with the
pickets?
A Well, he is the President of the NAACP. There
is a connection. He would tell who to go and who not to go.
Q That is Reuben Gamble?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is he in the court room?
A Yes, sir.
Q And he is the President of the NAACP?
A Yes, sir.
Q Of which Chapter?
A Dublin Chapter.
Q Are you familiar with the Dublin Chapter of
the NAACP?
A Yes.
Q Is it an affiliate of any other organization?
A What do you mean by that?
A I mean, is it an affiliate of any other NAACP
Organization?
A We have our Charter from the New Yokr Office.
Q Now, do you know how many days those pickets
picketed Todd's Service Station?
A Wednesday, Thursday and - well, I am not too sure
about Friday.
458
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Exhibit No.
A
Avenue.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Were you there Thursday?
I passed by there Thursday.
How many pickets did you see Thursday?
No more than the average six or seven.
No more than six or seven.
And how many did you see Wednesday?
About six or seven.
At no time you didn't see any more than that?
No more than ten anyway.
Now, I hadn you a picture here, which is Plaintiffs'
11. Can you identify that picture?
That is Todd's Service Station. This is Glenwood
Well, that is the place you are talking about?
Yes.
Where you observed the pickets?
Yes.
How many pickets do you see there?
Well, I see more than ten.
How many?
I couldnjt say.
Well, can you count them?
How can I count them when there is some one standing
in front of them?
459
Q Well,would you say there were as many as 25?
A Yes.
Q Now, do you see this section from here down to
there? Do you know what that is?
A That is the drive way.
Q The drive way to the filling station?
A Yes.
Q Now, where are those pickets standing in reference
to that drive way?
A They are standing in the drive way.
Q And it is block, isn’t it?
A Yes._________
MR. HAYES: All right.
THE COURT: All right, you may go down.
MR. MOORE: I have some questions,Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right, strictly in rebuttal now, and
that applies to both sides. It must be strictly in rebuttal.
No lawyer can ask anything, after you finish, unless it is
strictly in rebuttal.
MR. MOORE: All right, sir.
Q I show you Plaintiffs' Exhibit "P-10", and ask
y>u if you recognize it?
A Yes, I do.
Q Look at it. Do you see a barricade across the
drive way?
460
A Yes.
Q Is that the same drive way that you see in
Plaintiffjs Exhibit ,,P-lln? Is your answer it is?
A This shows more.
MR. HAYES: I am sorry, I can't hear the witness.
THE COURT: All right, talk just a littlje louder.
TQE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
Q All right. Did you make a report -
you make an affidavit respecting the attack in front of Winn-Di*ie
to the FBI?
pardon me - did
A Yes, I did.
Q Do you know the name of the FBI Agent?
A I can't remember the name of the Agent that took
my affidavit, but Mr.Applegate was there, and he was a witness
to my giving an affidavit.
MR. MOORE: That's all.
THE COURT: You may go down.
CHARLES MYRICK, SWORN FOR THE PLAINTIFFS, TESTIFIED.
ON DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MOORE:
Q Will you state your name, please?
A Charles Myrick.
Q Your age?
A Twenty
Q Where do you live, Mr. Myrick?
A 115 Agone street.
Q Is that in Dublin,Georgia.
4 Dublin, Georgia.
Q
July of 1965?
Did you have occasion to engage in picketing in
A Yes, sir.
Q Where was that picketing?
A At Winn-Dixie.
Q Who was with you at the time, if anyone, when
y ou were picketing?
A Louis Stanley and Robert Finley are the only two
guys that I remember.
Q Were there others?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, what was your purpose in picketing Winn-Dixie?
A Our purpose in picketing Winn-Dixie is because
they wouldn't hire any Negroes to work at Winn-Dixie.
462
A Yes, sir.
Q Can you state to the court what happened?
A Well, there was a truck that came along and they
vere throwing water and bottles in the picket line where we were
picketing at, and they would drive the car up to the picket
line, over the picket line, where we were picketing at in order
to keep us from marching down the side walk.
q Was the police peesent while this was going on?
A They were riding up and down the street.
Q Were the persons who were throwing the bottles and
water arrested?
A No, sir.
Q Were those persons members of the Negro or White
race?
A White.
q What else happened, if anything?
A After we got out release we crossed over from
Winn-Dixe, over by this church, and were standing up there to
rest awhile, and an officer came up on a motorcycle and told
us to move on. We began to walk up the street slowly, and then
a police car came and turned into the Colonial lot and circled
the block and came back around and stopped and said "You are
under an arrest for disobeying an officer." We got in the car
and they took five of us down there and left three, and then
Q D i d a n y t h i n g u n u s u a l h a p p e n o n t h i s o c c a s i o n ?
463
they went back and picked up the other three and then they# came
back, and searched us all and then they locked us up.
Q What time of day did this happen?
A At 4:45.
Q Where were you taken?
A To the City Hall.
Q How long did you remain at the City Hall?
A Six hours and a half.
Q Were you released?
A Yes, sir, after Mr.Gamble and Bobbie Hill came
down and talked with us.
Q Did you have a trial scheduled in the Recorder's
Court the following Monday?
A Yes, sir, but we had it continued.
Q Do you know to when your case was continued?
A Until the next Monday.
Q What, if anything happened upon the trial of the
case the next Monday?
A Well, we all were tried and we all were found
guilty.
q What was your sentence?
A Twenty-two Dollars or fifteen days on the road.
THE COURT: What? Fifteen dollars or?
THE WITNESS: It was $22.00 or fifteen days on the road.
Q Did you stay in jail?
464
A Yes, sir, we stayed in jail three days.
Q When were you released?
A We were released that Wednesday afternoon about
seven o'clock.
Q What did you do, if anything, after you were re
leased?
A I was released and we went down by the Glenwood
Soda Shop and I went home and took a bath and I came back and
again started my activities. I went across the street and got in
the picket line and started picketing.
Q Approximately, how long did you picket?
A I picketed until I was arrested about 9:00 o'clock.
Q Were there any other persons in the picket line
with you?
A Yes, sir.
Q How many persons were in the picket line with
y ou, if you remember?
A I would say about 25.
Q Were there other persons in the area where you
were picketing?
A Yes, sir.
Q Can you indicate there, in the area, these persons
were present?
A Ehere were some across in front of the service
station, on the opposite side of the service station, and there
465
where some in the service station yard.
Q The persons opposite the service station, were
they Negro or White?
A Negroes.
Q What about the persons inside the service station
yard?
A They were white.
Q Approximately how many white persons were there?
A About 15 or 20.
Q Do you have any knowledge as to what they were
doing, if anything?
A They were talking, and cursing.
Q Did they say anything to you or to the pickets?
A Yes, sir, they were cursing at us, but we didnt say
anything back, just kept marching.
Q Were the police present at that time?
A One officer arrived, Mr. Buddie Daniel, but he
wasn't on duty. He came up there and stayed abaut 30 minutes.
Q What did he do, if anything?
A He got out the car with a dog at first, and then
some one said: "We are not afraid of your dog", and then he took
the dog back and put him in the car, and then a few minutes jLater
an officer came up there, and then Mr.Daniel got in his car and
went back and then he came back in a uniform.
466
A No, sir.
Q Do you recall an officer taking a can from the
car later on?
Q D i d a n y t h i n g u n u s u a l h a p p e n t h a t e v e n i n g ?
A Yes, sir.
Q Can you describe that event to the court?
A It was a red can. They got this can and came out
on the side walk where we were and poured something down there
by that sign that says "South Side Service Station."
Q I will show you a picture, Plaintiff's Exhibit
"P-8", and ask you if you can identify it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you see a sign that says "South Side Service
Station"?
A No, sir.
Q You don't see that sign?
A No, sir.
Q What, if anything,happened when this material was
poured near this sign that you have described?
A When it was poured on the street you couldn't
hardly breathe. You would have to take your handkerchief and
cover your nose.
Q What, if anything, happened at that time?
A We kept marching.
467
Q State whether or not your picketing had any effect
upon the traffic on Glenwood Avenue?
A No, sir, it didn't.
Q State whether or not you saw pickets going back
and forth across the street?
A I didn't.
Q Were you later on arrested in the evening?
A I was.
Q Can you describe what happened at the time you
were w arrested?
A When we were arrested, Chief Josey came down and
said "Disperse and go home." We kept marching. He said it
again, and then he gave the order over a loud speaker to start
picking us up. An officer walked up to me and caught me by the
hand and said "Lets go." I got on in and went on to jail.
Q Were you on the picket line when you were arrested?
A Yes, sir.
Q What happened after you were placed in the car,
if anything?
A Nothing happened, they just took us down to the
county jail.
Q What, if anything happened at the county jail?
A They booked us, and they took some of the guys
picture. They didn't take mine.
468
A
Q
A
Q
August 11th,
erected?
Q
No, sir.
Were you later on released?
I was released that Friday.
At the time you were picketing on the night of
19o5, state whether or not there were any barricades
Did anything else happen?
A Yes, thejre were.
MR. MOORE: The witness is with you.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. HAYES:
Q Charles, you are one of these Negroes that lay
down in the street when you were picketing at Winn-Dixie, aren't
you?
A No, sir. We didn't lay down in the street.
Q Well, did you lay down on the side walk?
A No, sir.
Q Where did you lay down?
A We didn't lay down at no place.
W You didn't?
A No, sir
Q Now, why did you say you were picketing?
A Picketing where?
469
Q At Winn-Dixie?
A We weee picketing because they wouldn't hire any
Negroes to work in Winn-Dixie.
Q How do you know that?
A Because we had went out there and tried to get
jobs. I did myself.
Q You went down and tried to get a job?
A Yes, sir.
Q And they wouldn't hire you?
A No, sir.
Q Tftat was the reason you were picketing?
A That's right.
Q Are you a member of the NACCP?
A Ye, sir.
Q And are you a member of SCOPE?
A Yes, sir, I work with SCOPE.
Q You aee a member of both of them?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who is the boss of SCOPE in Dublin, Georgia?
A That, I don't know.
Q You don't know who the leader is?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know who is the President of the NACCP?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who?
A Mr. Reuben Gamble.
Q Now, what date did you picket at Todd's Service
Station in Dublin?
A August 11th.
Q Of what year?
A 1965.
Q Did you picket all day?
A No, sir.
Q How long did you picket?
A Oh, from - I got out of jail about seven o'clock,
from seven o'clock until about 5|;00 or 9:30.
Q From 7:00 o'clock in the morning until you were
arrested that night?
A Yes, sir.
Q You picketed all day?
A I couldn't picket that morning because I was in
jail.
Q You pkcketed from the time you got out of jail
until the time you got back in jail, is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you have an previous record of arrest?
A No, sir.
Q What are the most pickets that you all had at
the Todd Service Station at any one time during that day?
470
471
A I don't know about that date.
Q Well, you were there from seven o'clock until nine?
A When I got in the picket line there were about
25 in the picket line.
Q About 25 pickets?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were they blocking the side walk?
A No, sir.
Q They were not blocking the drive way to the service
station?
A No, sir.
Q And you stayed in that line all day?
A That's right.
Q Now, you are just as sure of that testimony as
you are everything else you hove testified to from this stand?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right, now, I hand you this exhibit here and
see if you recognize it?
A I do.
Q What is it?
A That is the Sinelari Service Station that we were
picketing.
Q All right, now, what is this?
A That's a drive way.
Q And what is that in that drive way?
A Pickets.
Q And you are still testifying that you were not
blocking the drive way?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right, do you recognize that picture?
A I do.
Q What is this?
A The side walk.
Q Is that a drive way?
A It is supposed to be.
Q It is supposed to be?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, are those Negro pickets there blocking that
drive way?
MR. MOORE: Wait a minute, Counsel.
THE COURT: What is it?
MR. MOORE: I think that this is offensive to keep
regerring to 'Niggers".
MR. HAYES: I didn't say "Niggers."
THE COURT: I don't think calling a person a "Nigger"
is offensive.
MR. HAYES: I will call them anything he wants me to.
MR. MOORE: That is no such a word as that. It is a
respectful way of saying "Niggen." And I object to it.
472
473
THE COURT: That is not the same thing as saying
"nigger".
MR. MOORE: Respectful way of saying it.
THE COURT: What do you mean by respect?
MR. MOORE: The way he said it, is supposed to be
a cross between "Negro" and "nigger".
THE COURT: Well, I just can't get it. I don't know
what you mean. Calling one a "Negro", that's not offensive.
MR. MOORE: Well, I don't consider it offensive.
THE COURT: Well, he said "Negro."
MR. MOORE: He slid "Negri". (Spelling uncertain)
THE COURT: Well, that's "Negro", isn't it?
MR. MOORE: N0t in my language, sir.
MR. HAYES: I want to say this: I pronounced the word
like I think it should be pronounced, not with the idea of har-
rassing or intimidating anyone. I will call them colored folks
or anything else he wants me to call them, Judge.
THE COURT: The correct way, as I understand it, is
'Negro", and you pronounced it "Negrow", I think. Any way, I
will take it under advisement, so you go ahead.
MR. HAYES: All right, sir.
Q Now, are these Negroes blocking that drive way?
A I wouldn't say they were.
Q You would not?
A No, sir.
474
THAT IS INTRODUCED IN EVIDENCE?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Let me see it.
Q How do you pronounce your last name?
A Myrick.
Q What is your alias?
A What do you mean?
Q Do you have another name other than that?
A No, sir.
MR. HAYES: All right.
THE COURT: All right, you may go down.
MR. MOORE: Just a minute, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Now, I am going to ask both counsel not to
be getting up after you have finished. I have always been pretty
strict about that in this court. When you finish you can't get
back up and ask other questions that are not in rebuttal.
MR. MOORE: I haven't asked the question yet.
THE COURT: I know you haven't. I am just warning you,
because you all have been doing it all day. You have been hopping
up all day and he has been hopping up and doing the same thing.
Get through and then let it alone.
MR. MOORE: I will apologize if the court thinks I have
been doing that all day.
THE COURT: Well, you have been getting up and doing it,
and opposing counsel has too. I think you both haee been getting
475
up, but get through with your testimony so you won't have to
be going back over it again, unless it is in rebuttal. All right,
you may proceed.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MOORE:
Q Mr. Myrick, while you were picketing had any
cars attempted to come through the picket lines and you wouldn't
let them through?
A Yes, sir.Chief Josey came up to the picket line.
THE COURT: There is one thing perhaps I should say.
I might have this morning, when I said that I wanted all of
these affidavits presented to the grand jury, that might have
been a little - it looks like it, although I didn't mean it that
way, but it might look like an intimidation of the witnesses, so
I will withdraw that statement at this time.
MR. MOORE: Thank you, Your Honor.
476
ROGERS DBMMONS, SWORN FOR THE PLAINTIFFS, TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
ON DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MOORE:
Q Mr. Demmons, will you speak up so counsel here
can hear you and I can hear you and so the Judge can hear you.
Will you state your name, please?
A Roger Demmons.
Q Where do you live, Mr. Demmons?
A 1225 King street.
Q Is that in the City of Dublin?
A It is.
Q Did you or have you had an occasion to go to the
First Baptist Church?
A I have.
Q When did you go to the First Baptist Church?
A I went to the First Baptist Church on three
Sundays.
Q Do you recall the first occasion on which you
wnet to the First Baptist Church?
A I do.
Q What was that occasion?
A Well, the first occasion I hdd to go to the
First Baptist Church was on the second Sunday in July
Q W^at of day was it when you arrived there?
477
A It was in the afternoon, about a quarter to eight.
Q Were there any other person or persons with you?
A Max Rice, Linda DeNotie and Carroll Johnson and
some more Negro kids.
Q What, if anything, happened when you arrived
at the church?
A Well, we parked the cars back of the church in
the parking lot, and we walked around to the front of the church
and went upon the porch of the church, and there these two men
met us and begin talking to Max and Carroll, and I was standing
back there and could not hear, and so I moved up to the front
and I heard this man say that they didn't like for drunks and
bums coming to their church. Then I heard him state again, he
said: "Give me your 'phone number and your address and I will
call you this week and let you know." They were supposed to
have a meeting that Monday, and they would call us and let us
know.
Q Were the people with you Negro and White?
A They were.
Q What did you do after this conversation, if any
thing?
A Well, we left and went back and got in the cars
and went down to St. Paul's Church.
Q Were any persons with you drunk or bums?
A No, sir, they were not.
Did you have another occasion to go to the FirstQ
478
Baptist Church?
A I had an occasion to go to the First Baptist Church
on the Third Sunday in July.
Q Was that this year?
A It was.
Q What time of day did you go?
A Well, myself, Willie Hall, Willie Huff and Willie
Dave Plummer went down there to the First Baptist Church about
ten minutes to eight.
Q What happ ened, if anything, when you arrived at
the church?
A Well, this time, as we crossed the red light down
there on Bellevue and were coming up the side walk to the church
we were stopped by GBI Agents of Georgia and several other men.
He said: ''Where are you going"? We told him that we were going
to worship God. He said: "Well, you are not going into the
church". So, he began to pull his coat back and I could see
a gun, and so afffcr that I asked him again, I said: "May we
go in the church and worship God"? He saidV "No." Then we had
this conversation again we turned left and went back down to
St. Paul Church.
Q Did you have another occasion in July to go to the
First Baptist Church?
A I went back to the First Baptist Church the Fourth
Sunday in July in the morning and in the evening.
479
Q What, if anything, happened when you went to the
church that morning?
A Well, that morning myself and fourteen other
Negroes and one white went back to the First Baptist Church
and we had got across and Mr. Wilbur S. Jones, the GBI Agent and
some other members, which I took to be members of the church,
was waiting for us outside.
Q What, if anything, happened when you encountered
Mr. Jones and the GBI Agents?
A Well, the GBI began to talk with us and said:
"What do you want this time"? We said: "We came here to worship
God." He said: "Well, I told you all last week that you all were
not coming in this church." Then Mr. Wilbur S. Jones called them
off to the side and began to talk with them but I did not hear
the conversation.
Q Who was he talking to?
A Miss DeNotie.
Q Following the conversation between Mr. Jones and
Miss Denotie, what, if anything, happened?
A Well, Mr. Will S. Jones came back up to the bunch
where I was and he said: "I want all of you to come to the Human
Relations Committee that Monday night and we will discuss this,
and so I told him that we were not going to the meeting because
we didn't think it would help us any by going, and so I asked him,
I said: "Have you had a meeting?" He said: "No, this is what we
480
are going to do Monday night." So, this man had told me that
they had already had a meeting and they decided that they were
not going to let any Negroes into the church.
Q What time of the morning was this?
A This was about a qiarter to eleven.
Q About a quarter to eleven?
A Yes, sir.
Q After the conversation with Mr. Nones what, if
anything, happened?
A Well, we sung a song real softly and had prayer
and then we left.
Q Did you have occasion to return to the church on
that day?
A We went back that Sunday afternoon about a quarter
t o eight.
Q What, if anything, happened when you arrived at
the church that evening?
A Well, that afternoon, after we arrived at the
church, we asked if we pould we go and worship God? And this
man, which I took to be the preacher because he had his Bible,
and he said: "I have told you all before that you are not coming
into this church." I had never seen him before. We then had a
prayer, and then Chief Josey came up and he said: "Now, you all
have sung your song and had your prayer, now leave." So, one
of the men called Max off to the side and began to talk with him,
481
and then the man with the Bible in his hand said: "All right,
Chief, they are in your hands." So the Chief grabbed Max by
the arm and took him across the street and we folbowed him.
Q When you reached the other side of the street
what happened, if anything?
A We began to sing freedom songs. After ww were
over there about five minutes a man behind a bush in a fireman's
uniform shot some liquid up in the air which looked like water
and then it began to burn.
Q What happened to anyone else, if anything?
A Well, one girl, Eugina Brown, had some of this
sprayed into her eyes, and Max asked one of the police officers
to call an ambulance and he said no he was not going to call an
ambulance, so he went back and called Mr.Gamble and Mr. Gamble
came over and picked Euginia up and two other fellows then took
her out to the hospital.
Q When you aay "Max", you mean Max Rice?
A I do.
Q What, if anything happened after that?
A Well, after that Max went back down there and
asked one of the other officers if he would call an ambulance
for the rest of the kids and he said no, and then he went back
to Dent Jackson and asked him if he would call an ambulance and
Jackson saidi no, and so we went back to singing and Chief Josey
came up. I don't h know whether he came from across the street
482
or down the street, and he said: "All right, lets move", and
so we stepped off the side walk down into the parking lot, and
so at this time a man, who I learned later was Lt. Harden, I
learned his name later, pulled Max away from us, and as I turned
around I saw this man hitting Max with a blackjack. He got it
from a police officer.
Q Go ahead*
A He hit Max about twice before he fell to the
ground, and then he hit him about a couple more times before he
had a chance to get his hand over his head to protect his head
and he hit him about once more, and then some one said "That's
enough."
q What happened then, if anything?
A These two boys came over and pulled this man up
off Max and then Chief Josey was facing us and he turned and
went back and was leaning over Max and as I started over to help
Max Dent Jackson, a colored police officer, pushed me away.
Q What happened then, if anything?
A Well, then Gloria Outler and Linda and them were
trying to find some one to make a telephone call, trying to find
a telephone booth, and so by this time John Gray, Joyce Lott and
George Lattimore came back in a car and they taken a picture of
this but the camera was taken away by a police officer, so they
let George Lattimore and Joyce Lott go but they kept John.
Q Are they Negroes?
483
A They are Negroes.
Q What happened next, if anything?
A Well, at this time Joyce came up to where we were,
and so Gloria gave George a dime to go call the ambulance and
about this time an ambulance came from around the corner and
picked Max up and took him away. About this time George said
to call an ambulance but it was too late Max had already gone.
Q After Max was taken away, what happened next, if
anything?
A Well, we were all going up the streets and Imogene
Thomas, a Negro resident of Dublin, came by and picked up all
of the girls and took them out to the hospital, and George
Lattimore and myself walked on out to the hospital.
Q What happened at the hospital, if anything?
A When we got to the hospital, we got there about
five minutes before Mr. Gamble came back, and we went inside
the hospital, me and Mr. Gamble and some more fellows, went in
the hospital, andmrse began to say that she was going to call
the police because she wasn't going to stand for all of this,
and so we all came back out and began to look for the rest of
them and we couldn't find them and in about 30 minutes they came
back, and Imogene was in there crying and the police came by
and picked her up and took her away down to the city hall.
Q Did you then go to your church?
4254
A Well, not exactly then, we didn;t go to our
church, because there was not enough cars for all of us to go
back so Mr.Roscoe Browder and some others came over and then
we left and went to the church.
Q Have you had occasion to picket in the City of
Dublin?
A I have.
Q Were you engaged in picketing on August 11th, 1965?
A I was.
Q Approximately what time did you start picketing?
A Well, I started picketing in the morning.
Q What time of day was that?
A It was about 9:30 or 10:00 o'clock.
Q And were there other persons picketing with you?
A There were.
Q Who were the other persons?
A I don't know the persons, but there was about
seven or eight of us.
Q And where were you picketing?
A Picketing at Todd's Service Station.
Q Now, are you able to describe the manner in which
you picketed?
A We were just walking up and down the side walk in
an orderly manner and we would turn and go back down and when
485
we would get down to the corner we would turn and come back.
Q Did you have occasion to see Chief Josey come
out to the station on that occasion?
A I saw him about 12:00 or 12:30.
Q What, if anything, did Chief Josey do, when he
came out to the place?
A Well, first, when he came out there he went and
talked to Mrs.Todd,the station owner, and then he stayed there
and they got some blockades and brought out there and set up.
MR. HAYES: Your Honor, 1 object to his guessing.
THE COURT: Did he say guessing? I didn't understand
what he said.
MR. HAYES: He said that he guessed Chief Josey did
this and did that.
THE COURT: Well, I won't take that into consideration.
1$[R. MOORE: I didn't understand him to say he guessed.
THE COURT: Well, go ahead.
Q State whether or not any blckades were brought
out there?
MR. HAYES: I bbject to that question on the ground
that it is a leading question.
THE COURT: Well, I will let him go ahead and answer it.
We will never get anywhere if we don't keep going. Go ahead, you
can ask the question.
486
A I did.
Q What was your answer?
A There was.
Q What was done, if anything, with these barricades?
A These barricades were set up. They had one on
the drive way here, and one here. They had blockades across here
and had some on down side of the gas tanks.
Q I will show you Plaintiffs' Exhibit "P-4" and
ask you if you are able to mark on here by the use of "X" and
a "Y" the place where Chief Josey placed the blockades?
A Right here.
Q Let me ask you this question: Does Plaintiff's
Exhibit "P-4" show the Sinclair Service Station?
A It does.
Q WiJ.1 you indicate the place where Cttief Josey
located the barricades?
A The barricades were located between the two drive
ways.
Q Would you draw an MX: where you say the barricades
were? That is one of the barricades?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right?
A There were some more barricades. He had nnd down
Q Did you hear the question?
side of the gas tank at the service station.
Q Will you put an "X" there?
A All right.
Q May the record show that the witness has put
"X'es" on Plaintiffs' Exhibit "P-4" wherein he recalls the
barricades having been placed? Did you picket within the area
where the barricades were placed?
A I did.
Q Describe the manner in which the picketing was
c onducted?
A Well, after they had put the barricades out there,
we would go up to where the barricades were and stop and turn
and go back down to where the other barricades was down at the
corner and turn and come back.
Q And what time of day was this?
A Well, this was about 1:00 or 1:30.
Q Did you continue picketing after that?
A No, I didn't.
Q What did you do, if anything?
A Well, after then some one came over and relieved
me and so I went back up to the NAACP o ffice and SCOPE Headquarters
Q Did you later return to picketing?
A No, I didn't. So Ernest asked me would I go down
there and watch in his place and so I went down there and watched
his place to about 7:30 or 8:00 o'clock and then I left and Went
back to the NAACP Office.
487
488
q When you were down watching the picketing on
Glenwood between 7:30 and 8:00 o'clock,what did you observe,
if anything?
A Well, I noticed this car would come and and try
to hit some of the pickets. He would come out and he would go
up to the next drive way and turn around and come back and come
through again.
Q You said come out - come out from where?
A q Well, the barricades, there was an opening in
there and she would came through the barricades and the pickets
would be going across and she would try to hit them, and we
would tell the pickets to stop.
Q Do you know the person who was operating that
car?
A No, I do not, but it was a feaale.
Q Did you have occasion to observe anything else?
A I observed some more mcars coming through.
Q Coming through where?
A The same place the other car was coming through.
Q Is that at the Service Station?
A Yes, at the Service Station.
Q What effect, if any, did the picketing have upon
the traffic on Glenwood A venue?
A It didn't have any effect on the traffic.
Q Did you have occasion to see negro people going
from one side of the street to the other during the picketing?
A Well, about 4:00 or 4:30 some Negro pickets came
and relieved some that had been picketing and this was the only
time.
Q I see. On the night of Augusta 11th, 1965, were
you arrested?
A I was.
Q What were you doing, if anything, at the time you
were arrested?
A I was in the NAACP office.
Q Do you know where that is located?
A It is located on Glenwood Avenue.
Q What happened, if anything, at the time you were
arrested?
A Well, at first, I heard arguments going on down
by the service station and I was in the office and I came out to
see what was going on, and I heard Chief Josey say to disperse
and go home, and so I was Agoing on down the street to see what
was going on and I met Ulysses Evans and he told me to come on
back and so I went on back to the NAACP office, and about 9:30
Chief Josey came down and told us to disperse and go home. At
first nnne of the kids moved and then he said "all of those who
wants to go home, can go". So, some of the girls started to leave
490
and he said: "All right, you aee under an arrest." So, he began
to take us down there and one police office came into the office
and snatched the telephone receiver from Bernice and Chief Josey
himself snatched Linda from behind the desk in which she was
sitting down taking a fresh report.
Q Was that Linda Denita?
A Yes, sir.
Q At the time Chief Josey came down to the NAACP office
were you standing inside or outside of the office?
A 1 was standing inside.
Q After you were arrested, what happened, if any
thing?
A Well, we were taken down to the county jail and
booked.
Q After you were booked, what happendd, if anything?
A Well, at first, they put us in separate cells.
Q I didn't understand you, sir?
A They put us in separate cells, and then they took
us out of the cell - there was about sixteen of us - they took
us out of that cell and brought us up to the first cell in which
they told Mr.Gamble and them to come out, and the regular prisoners
that they had there, they brought them and put them in the regular
cell where the bunks were, and then they put all of us into one
room, and there was only one bhnk and one long table.
491
Q What happened next, if anything?
A Well, we all had to sleep on the floor. There was
about 39 of us that had to sleep on the floor.
Q I would like to redirect your attention to the
time that you were in the office, are you able to recall the
number of pepple that were in the office at the time you were
arrested?
A There was about 15 or 20 people in there.
Q State whether or not all the people that were in
the office at that time were arrested?
A They was.
Q Do you know where the telephone is in the office?
A I do.
Q Where is the telephone?
A The telephone is on the wall as you come in the
door on the left-hand side.
MR. MOORE: The witness is with you.
THE COURT: Let me ask you a question before he starts.
You all came from the St. Paul's Church down to the First Baptist
Church, is that right?
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: Were you all in St. Paul's Church when you
all came out?
THE WITNESS: No, sir. we were in the building where
492
the SCOPE Office is located at.
TQE COURT: Well, is tha t the St. Paul's Church?
THE WITNESS: The SCOPE office was located in the back.
THE COURT: In the back of the St. Paul Church?
THE WITNESS: St. Paul.
THE COURT: Then you all came out and went to the Baptist
Church?
THE WITNESS: Well, on this particular night the St.
Paul Church was not having any services.
THE COURT: They were not having any services that night?
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: But usually they have services as the St.
Paul Church?
THE WITNESS: They have services on the Second Sanday
in the morning and they have one of the Fourth Sunday in the
morning.
THE COURT: Well, I was just trying to get that straight
in my mind. But they do have services at that church. Are fiyou
a member of that church?
THE WITNESS: No, sir, I am a member of the Glenwood
Baptist church.
THE COURT: Well, now, they have the same Bible, do
they not, at St. Paul's Church and the other Baptist Church as
they do in the First Baptist Church?
THE WITNESS: They do.
THE COURT: All right, and you pray to the same God
there, don't you?
THE WITNESS: They do.
THE COURT: And God can hear you in one church just as
well as in another?
THE WITNESS: That's right.
THE COURT: If you just wanted to go to church for the
purpose of worshiping God, why couldn't God hear you just as well
in the St. Paul Church as in the First Baptist Church?
THE WITNESS: Well, in my opinion, I think you should
be able to go and worship in any church, if they are God's churches.
THE COURT: I am not asking you that. I say, why do you
want to go to the First Baptist Church, when you say they preach
the same Bible at the St. Paul's colored church as they do in the
First Baptist Church, white, why can't God hear you the same in
St. Paul's Church as well as he can hear you in the First Baptist
Church?
THE WITNESS: He can.
THE COURT: Then why do you want to go to the First
Baptist Church?
THE WITNESS: Well, as I said before, if these are God's
churches you should be able to worship there.
THE COURT: I know, but God can hear you in St. Paul's
493
494
Church as well as in the First Baptist Church. Now, why did you
want to go to the First Baptist Church?
THE WIBNESS: Because it is a church of God.
THE COURT: You don't seem to understand
THE WITNESS: I understand what you are saying. You are
saying why ---
THE COURT: (Interposing) God can hear you as well in
one church as in another, and if you go there to worship God,
why don't you stay in the St. Paul Church rather than go to the
Baptist Church?
THE WITNESS: Wei}., on this Bunday St. Paul's Church
was not having services.
THE COURT: Well, you went back to the First Baptist
Church the following Sunday when they were having services in
your church?
THE WITNESS: Well, they were having services at St.Paul.
THE COURT: That is what I say. And why didn't you
go to St. Paul's Church instead of going to the First Baptist
Church?
THE WITNESS: Well, if both are God's churches, why
couldn't we go to the First Baptist Church?
THE COURT: Well, God can hear you as well in your
church, St. Paul's Church, or the Baptist Church, as well as
he can hear you in the First Baptist Church, and then why did
495
you want to go to the First Baptist Church?
THE WITNESS: Because, as I said, I feel that they all
are God's churches.
THE COURT: Well, then,,why did you want to go there?
THE WITNESS: I will put it this way: When God put
man here on the earth he didn't say what color he was.
THE COURT: I am not going into that. I am asking you
a simple question. You say you have got the same Bible and that
God can hear you just as well in St. Paul's Church as he can
hear you in the First Baptist Church, and if you are going to
worship God, why can't you stay in St. Paul's Church?
THE WITNESS: Well, suppose I say this: In St. Paul's
Church and the rest of the Negro churches the preachers preach
God's word different than they do in the white First Baptist
Church.
THE COURT: You say the preaches are different and preach
different?
THE WITNESS:I suppose they preach different. I have
never heard a white preacher preach before.
THE COURT:You just don't know then?
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: But you know that God can hear you in one
church just as well as in another church?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I know that.
496
THE COURT: You go to church for God to hear you, don't
you?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right, that is all I wanted.
..... -..........CROSS EXAMINATION..........................
BY MR. HAYES:
Q Do you know how many Negro churches there are in
Dublin,Georgia?
A No, sir.
Q Have you made any effort to go to any of them?
A I have been to them.
Q How often do you go to church?
A I go to church most every Sunday when they have
church/
Q How often, before the first day of July, 1965, did
you go to church?
A Every Sunday they had church and Sunday school.
Q How often was that?
A They have Sunday School every Sunday and church
ervices every two Sundays.
Q How old are you,Roger?
A Seventeen.
497
Q Seventeen?
A Yes.
Q Do you go to school?
A I do.
Q You know what it means to take an oath?
A I do.
Q What does it mean?
A It means to tell the truth.
Q Now, all of this testimony that you have testified
to from this witness stand a few minutes ago about Max did this
and Max did that. Did you see all of that?
A I saw him go to the police officer, and the telephone
Q Where were you when he was gone to the telephone?
A The booth was standing out here and I was standing
out in front of the booth, about long here, and I could see Max
go to the telephone.
Q How far were you from the telephone booth?
A How far was I from the telephone booth?
Q Yes?
A I would say approximately a 100 feet.
Q Did you over hear what his telephone conversation
was about?
A No, sir.
Q Well, how do you know who he called?
498
A Well, Mr. Gamble came out there.
Q //ell, answer my question. How do you know who he
called?
A As 1 say, Mr. Gamble came out.
Q Do you know who he called?
A No, sir.
MR. HAYES: I make a motion to strike that evidence,
that part of the evidence, about what he testified to.
MR. MOORE: There is no basis for allowing his motion,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, I will remember the evidence, or when
I get the evidence from Mr. Watson I will read it over and find
out just exactly what has been testified to. If I come to
something that should be ruled out, why, I will rule it out.
Go ahead.
Q Now, when he went to the police station -- you say
he went to the police station?
A He went to a police officer.
Q Were you with him at that time?
A Ves, I was.
Q How far were you from him?
A I was at his side.
Q You were at his side. All during this incident,
did you travel around with him.
499
A Only when we were asking the police would they
call an ambulance, I was.
Q What did you want them to get an ambulance for?
A Because this liquid that I have described, which
felt like water, began to burn. It got in some of the girls' eyes
and was burning them.
Q Were you with them at that time?
A I was when the liquid was sprayed.
Q Where was the liquid sprayed from?
A It was sprayed from behind a bush.
Q From behind a bush at the City Hall?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did the police officer tell you all?
A What did he tell us?
Q Didn't you say that Max Rice asked him to get an
ambulance?
A Yes, sir, and he said he would not call one.
Q He said he would not call one. Do you know what
that police officer's name was?
A No, sir, I don;t.
Q You do not know him?
A No, sir, not his name.
Q How many times have you been arrested in the City
of Dublin?
500
A Once. The only time I got arrested was when I
was picketing.
q That was the onjy time?
A Yes, sir.
Q Have you ever been arrested by the county?
A I have not.
Q Now, I believe you testified that you saw a white
man, who you later identified as Mr. Horton, with a blackjack,
s aw a policeman give him a blackjack?
A When he passed by the policeman handed him a
blackjack.
Q
A
a leathhr, and
on the inside
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
What do you mean by a blackjack.
A blackjack is something about this long, with
I believe it has something like a piece of iron
and it is covered.
And you say it was in the policeman's hand?
Yes, sir.
And he taken it from the policeman?
Yes, sir.
What policeman was that?
Well, the policeman was kinda turned to the side,
like that, and Chief Josey was standing between me, just like
I was over here and Chief Josey was here, but I could see Preston
Harden reach and get the blackjack.
501
Q You say Police Josey was blocking your view?
A He was blocking part of toy view, but as I went to
the side, like that, I could see it.
Q But you couldn't see the policeman to identify
him?
A No, sir.
Q But you could see him well enough to see this fellow
get a blackjack from him?
A Yes, sir.
Q How far was he from you?
A The policeman?
Q Yes?
A «fell, he was about 20 or 25 feet.
Q What time of day or night was that?
A It was in the afternoon about a quarter after
eight o'clock.
Q Was it dark?
A Yes, sir, it was dark.
Q It was after dark?
A Yes.
Q Then what did you see?
A What did I see?
Q Yes, with reference to what Mr. Horton did?
A Well, he hit Max about twice before he fell to
502
the ground, and he was trying to get his hand over his head to
protect his head.
Q How far were you from that?
A I was about ten feet.
Q About ten feet?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know what Max Rice did to Horton?
A I do not.
Q You don't know what caused him to hit him then?
A No, sir.
THE COURT: Well, we have been over that down there in
front of the church continuously, and I think we have got all
the facts about that. Suppose you proceed on something else.
MR. HAYES: I am through Judge.
THE COURT: All right, you may go down.
REUBEN GAMBLE. SWORN FOR THE DEFENDANTS, TESTIFIED.
503
BY MR. HAYES:
ON DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q Will you state your name for the record, please?
A I am Reuben L. Gamble.
Q Where do you live, Mr. Gamble?
A 616 Marcus Street in Dublin, Georgia.
Q Where are you employed?
A I am employed with the Veterans Administration
Hospital in Dublin,Georgia.
Q What is your age?
A I am 36.
Q Are you connected with any civil rights organi-
zations in Dublin?
A Yes, I am President of the National Association
for the Advancement of Colored People.
Q Is that the Dublin branch?
A The Dublin and Laurens County Branch.
Q
name of SCOPE?
Are you associated with an organization by the
A We have worked with SCOPE since they haee been
there this summer. I am not connected with SCOPE.
Q Do you hold any office in SCOPE?
A No.
504
Q Do you know that the function and purpose of SCOPE
is?
A Yes. Scope is a Summer Community Organization for
Political Education.
Q Do you know what the function of the NAACP is?
A Yes.
Q What is that function?
A The function of the Naacp is to ask or to advance
the Negro Race to equal rights.
Q On or about July 25th, 1965, did you have occasion
to receive a telephone call from Maxiume Rice?
A Yes, I did
Q What was that call?
A Max Rice called me and he told me --
MR. HAYES: (Interposing) Just a minute. I object to this
testimony on the ground that it is hearsay evidence.
MR. MOORE: Very well.
THE COURT: What do you say as to that?
MR. MOORE: I won't insist on it, Your Honor.
Q What did you do as a result of that call?
A As a result of that call I went immediately to
the City Hall and upon arriving at the City Hall I saw a group of
about 300 spectators, mostly white, and I saw a small group of
people, whom I was able to identify as Mx Rice and some other
members of the group, were standing there, and there were some
505
girls, one that was crying, and covering her eyes.
Q What did you do, if anything?
A I got out and went over and took the girl and a
couple of other fellows that had been burned, and the girl that
was crying very hard I took her and placed her into my car and
took her to the Laurens Memorial Hospital, where she was treated
for severe eye burns and irritation.
Q Did you remain at the Laurens Memorial Hospital?
A I stayed there until such time as the doctors
began treating her. I had been at the church in a meeting, add so
I went back to the church to inform the people as to what had
happened.
Q And which church was this?
A This was at the Washington Street Presbyterian
Church.
Q Did you have another occasion that same evening
to go to the Laurens County Memorial Hospital?
A Yes, after I went back and informed the pepple as
to what had happened, I went back to the hospital to see how the
girl was doing. Upon getting back to the hospital I met a group
of kids who had been down at the City Hall. They informed me
at that time _ —
MR. HAYES: (Interposing) I object to anything anybody
else told him.
506
THE COURT: What do you say to that?
MR. MOORE: I don't insist on it, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
Q What did you do, as a result of the conversation,
if anything?
A I went into the emergency room and there I saw
Max Rice, who was lying on the emergency table, bleeding very
profusely about the head, and the doctor came in about that time,
and the aids were in the process of cleaning dry blood off Max's
head, dry blood and sand, off his head, and the doctor was getting
ready to start treating Max.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I was examining the witness,
and I would like to know where it is necessary for me to stand.
THE COURT: Do how is that now?
MR. MOORE: I just wondering, I saw Mr. Hayes standing
up here.
THE COURT: Well, I guess he has got a right to stand.
MR. HAYES: He has been trying to tell me how to try my
case all the week.
-THE COURT: i know. But what do you mean, by the position
where he is standing?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Well, I think he has a right to stand where
he wants to stand.
507
MR. MOORE: *fell, I would like for the record to show
that while I am examining this witness on direct examination that
Mr. Hayes is standing approximately twelve feet from the witness.
THE COURT: Well, I think the witness can see you and --
MR. MOORE: (Interposing) Between me and the witness.
THE COURT: Not between you all. I don't say he is between
you all.
MR. HAYES: And to get the record straight, I would like
for it to show that I am not a prosecuting attorney. I don't know
why he keeps referring to --
THE COURT: (Interposing) Well, I am going to overrule
the motion. He was not between you and the witness, and I can
see the witness and hear him and if you want to move over you
can move over.
Q How long did you remain at the hospital?
A I remained at the hospital, oh, I guess approximately
45 minutes to an hour.
Q Did you have an occasion to return to the hospital
the following day?
A Well, in fact, I returned to the hospital later
that night. I came back to the hospital, I guess, about 11:30,
and I inquieed as to the condition of Mr. Rice. I was told by
the nurse --
MR. HAYES: (Interposing) I object to that.
THE COURT: All right, I think you will agree with me
508
that is hearsay evidence.
MR. MOORE: We don't insist on that.
THE COURT: All right.
Q Did you then leave the hospital?
A Yes, I left the hospital.
Q The following day, which was Monday, did you have
an occasion to return to the hospital?
A Yes, I did. I visited Max Rice in the hospital
about Noon the next day.
Q Did you leave him at the hospital?
A Yes, I left him at the hospital.
Q Did you have occasion to return to the hospital
later in the day.
A Yes, I came back to the hospital between 6:30 and
7:00 o'clock that evening and Max was released around 7:00 and
I took him home at that time.
Q Did you have occasion to be near the intersection
of Hudson street and Glenwood Avenue on August 11th, 1965?
A Yes.
Q And what the purpose of you being there?
A Well, I was observing the pickets fros time to time
diring that day. There were a group of members of the NAACP who
was picketing the Todd Service Station.
Q What was the first occasion that you had to go out
and observe the pickets?
509
A I went out shortly after 10:00 o'clock in the
morning.
Q Can you describe to the court what you observed
at that time?
A At that time I observed about six pickets on the
Glenwood side of the street, marching up to the edge of the drive
way and turning around and marching back down to the edge of the
other drive way on the side walk, very orderly and very peacefully.
0 Did you have occasion later in the day to return
to the scene and bbserve the picketing?
A Yes, I did. I returned back to the scene about
1:30. I observed about eight pickets picketing in this same general
area that I described before, however, at that time a barricade
had been placed and the pickets were picketing within the limits
of the barricades very orderly and very peacefully.
Q And how long did you remain at the scene at that
time observing the pickets
A I was there for about ten minutes.
Q What did you do following this, if anything?
A I then went to the office of the NAACP.
Q And where is that office located with respect to
die picketing?
A This is located about a half a block from the Todd
Service Station where they were picketing.
Q How long did you remain at the office?
510
q Did you have occasion to return to the area where
the picketing was going on during the date of August 11th, 1965?
A Yes. I remained at the office for about two hours
and then 1 left and I came back between 7:30 and 8:00 o'clock.
q What did you observe at that time, if anything?
A Well, between 7:30 and 8:00 I drove passed and I
did stop for a few minutes, and I observed something like twenty
pickets picketing and there was a group of spectators on the
Glenwood, Negroes, and a group of spectators on the Warbash side,
also Negro, and I observed a group of people milling around, white
people, milling around in the service station property.
q Are you able to approximate the size of the group
of white persons who were milling around in the service station:
A At that time there was quite a large group and I
estimate it to be in the neighborhood of fifty people.
Q Did you hear anything that was said by the people
who were milling around in there?
A No, I really couldn't distinguish anything that
was being said, but I do know there were comments from time to
time, but I was unable to distinguish anything that was said.
q State whether or not attf this time the pickets
were marching in the area that was barricaded?
A They were marching in the area of the barricades.
A I remained in the office for about two hours.
511
Q What effect, if any, did the picketing have upon
the traffic on Glenwood Avenue at this time?
A I noticed that the traffic was still moving. The
people would pass and, of course, look over at the pickets, but
the traffic was continuing to move.
Q State whether or not Glenwood Avenue is a heavflly
travelled thoroughfare?
A Glenwood Avenue is not a heavily travelled street.
Q State whether or not there are parking meters on
Glenwood Avenue?
A None that I have seen.
Q Do you have any personal knowledge as to what
the parking duration is?
A On Glenwood?
Q Yes?
A Usually there is no parking on Glenwood, if so,
very little.
Q Was that true on this evening?
A That was about the general case. There were a few
cars parked, but not very many.
Q State whether or not you observed any jNegroes
crossing back and forth from one side to the other?
A Occasionally I would see a Negro or two cross, but
not many.
Q Now, was this about 7:30?
A Yes, in that time range of 7:30 or 8:00 o'clock.
312
Q State whether or not you observed any policemen
present at that time?
A At that time I did not observe any policemen
present.
Q What did you do after observing the scene of the
picketing at this time?
A I then went to the office of the NAACP.
Q What did you do at that office, if anything?
A I was doing some work in the office there, and
some one later on brought to my attention that some type of gas
had been thrown, a gas of some kind, a gas with an amonia type
smell .
MR. HAYES: I object to that testimony as being hearsay.
THE COURT: What he saw would be admissible, but what
somebody told him would be hearsay.
MR. HAYES: He said that some one had 'phoned him, I
thought.
THE COURT: Well, anything that somebody informed him
would, of course, be hearsay.
MR. MOORE: I don't insist on it, Your Honor.
Q After your conversation there in the NAACP office,
vhat did you do, if anything?
A I walked out and I looked around and I noticed that
the pickets were still picketing, and I came beck into the office.
Q Did you have occasion to smell the atmosphere?
513
A No, I could not smell - I mean I smelt the atmos
phere, but I was unable to determine at that time the gas smell.
Q HOw long did you remain in the office at this time?
A ?Well, I remained in the office until I heard some
type of commotion going on up there, and I walked outside and I
noticed that Chief Josey was walking around with what appeared
to be a loud speaker in his hand, and as I got a little closer
I heard him say "I order you to disperse or you will be arrested'*.
I heard him give the orders to the officers to arrest, and the
officers immediately went into the line of pickets and they began
swinging clubs and pulling people around and jerking them around
and people were beginning to move out into the streets and the
officers were beginning to rush across the street into the group
of spectators and running the people on down between the houses
and back -- well,I was close to the Soda Shop there and people
ran down behind the soda shop, and seeing all of this I started
to cross over the street there to talk with Chief Josey with
reference to it and to ask him to call the policemen^ off and
maybe we could quiten this thing off without this type of bru
tality being used.
Q What happ ened, if anything, across the street?
A Well, across the street Chief Josey gave an officers,
as I continued across the street Chief Josey gave an order to
one of his officers to arrest me. This officer took me by the arm
514
and forced me over to the car and I was placed in a patrolman's
car.
Q Now, after you were placed in the partolman's car,
what happened, if anything?
A Well, I sit in the patrolman's car for a few
minutes and three other fellows were brought and placed into
the car, and after a few minuees we were taken down to the county
jail.
Q What happened, if anything, when you arrieed at
the county jail?
A When we arrived at the county jail, there were
two officers in the car. One officer, whose name I later dis
covered to be, I believe, was Officer J.Daniels. This was the
name that was on his badge. He got out of the car and ppened the
rear door and made a statement "I want one of you niggers to try
to run and see how far you will get."L-—— ■ — ■ ■ _ ’
Q What happened then, if anything?
A Of course, no one attempted to run, and we started
moving to the door of the county court house there, leading to
the jail, and officer J. Daniel was behind me and he was constantly
punching me.in the back with his club, and I made the statement:
"Officer, I am going very peacefully, so I can't see why you con
tinue to punch me in the back with a club", and he made a statement
to the effect "I won't only punch you in the back with a club •
but I will beat (I would like to offer an apology to the court
515
here) but he made a statement: "I won't only punch you in the
back but I will beat the goddam hell out of you."
What happened then, if anything?
A Well, about that time we were entering the jail,
and we were booked by Detective DeLoach and we were placed into
the cell. We were first placed into a cell with the regular
prisoners, where we had the outter space and also the space in
the area whre the bunks were. After being in there for a while
we were later ordered out along with the regular prisoners and
then the rest of the prisoners were ordered to go back into this
area and into the area where the bunks were. There is a door
there and this door was locked. Well, that left us out into
kinda alcove like, where there was a long table and a bench on
each side of the table. I think there was a bed over in the
corner. Now, we were there and later, just a little later, I
think there were maybe about twenty of us in there at that time
and then they brought about fifteen or so more and placed then
in the same cell with us, the same area. Now, we had no beds, and
we were all either sitting around or on the floow or on the table
and some of us were sleeping on the floor.
Q Now, what happened next, if anything?
A Well, I remained in jail until about 2:00 o'clock
and I was released under a $200.00 bond.
Q Was that bond with security?
A Yes, that was a security bond.
516
Q Do you understand the meaning of that?
A Well, 1 will explain it this way: Some one came
down and signed a $200.00 bond for me.
Q Now, prior to the commencement of the picketing
at Todd's Service Station on August 11th, 1965, had there been
any meetings conducted by the NAACP in respect to picketing?
A Yes.
Q When were those meetings held?
A Well, we had a meeting on our regular meeting night,
which at that time was on Monday, which, I think, would have been
on the 9th, and we decided at that time that we were going to
picket the Todd Service Station.
Q What was the purpose in picketing the Todd Service
Station?
A Well, the Todd Service Station had refused to serve
some Negroes, especially Negroes who were active in the civil rights
movement, or Negroes who were wearing SCOPE BUTTONS OR NAACP buttons,
Q Now, were there any instructions given in respect
to how the picketing was to be conducted?
A Yes.
Q What were those instructions?
A We always give our people instructions as to how
to picket. They were told to picket very orderly and very peace
fully. They are told not to comment on any situation, even when
comments are made or directed to them. They are not to return
517
any comments at all. They are to remain at all times non-violent,
even if they are struck at anytime they are never to strike back.
Q Were these instructions carried out in the picketing
as you observed?
A As I observed it, yes.
Q It was carried out as instructed?
A Yes.
THE COURT: Anything else?
MR. MOORE: The witness is with you.
THE COURT: Let me ask you a question : Did you all get
a permit to picket Todd Service Station?
THE WITNESS: At this time, no, sir.
THE COURT: You did not have a permit when you commenced?
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: I meant a City permit?
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
.................. CROSS EXAMINATION .......................
BY MR. HAYES:
Q Can you identify that?
A Yesm I can. This says a mass ralley before the
march in the fill across from Walker Service Station. Hear what
is going on in Dublin. Speakers: Mr. Joe Tucker, State Field
Director, NAACP, Atlanta,Georgia. Mr. Bobbie Hill, Regional
518
Youth Field Director, NAACP, Athens, Georgia. Mr. Mark Roseman,
Regional Youth Field Director, NAACP, New York, New york, and
Present of N.E.R.B. Mr. Ernest Evans, Task Force Worker, NAACP,
Athen,Georgia. Mr.Reuben Gamble, Active President and Youth
Adviser, NAACP, Dublin, Georgia. Mr. Maxium Rice, Scope volunteer,
SCLC, Detroit, Michigan. Join us today. August 4th, 2:00 P. M.,
l_City has agreed to provide protection for the march. NAACP,SCLC.
Q Who put that out?
A The NAACP.
Q And that was put out when?
A This was put out sometime prior to the march of
August 4th.
MR. HAYES: No further questions.
THE COURT: All right, you may go down. Anything else?
MR. MOORE: Yes, sir. I want to make this section of
the Code a part of the Plaintiffs' case. Do you have any objections
to my reading it?
MR. HAYES: No.
MR. MOORE: "Section 26-21. Permit required for parades,
demonstrations, and public addresses on streets.
In order to provide orderly ingress
THE COURT REPORTER: (Interposing) A little louder, please.
MR. MOORE: In order to provide for the orderly ingress
and egress of citizens through and upon the streets of the city,
all parades, demonstrations, and addresses on the streets are
519
hereby prohibited, except by written consent of the City Manager.
(Ord or 9-17-62)
THE COURT: All right, anything else? Anything else
from either side?
MR. MOORE: The plaintiffs* rest.
THE COURT: All right, anything else?
MR. HAYES: Your Honor, I would like to introduce into
evidence Section 26 --
THE COURT: (Interposing) You may redd it, please.
MR. HAYES: Although this is in the pleadings, but it
is a City Ordinance that I think I should introduce in evidence.
THE COURT: All right, go ahead.
MR. HAYES: This is the section that we offer in evidence,
without objection from opposing counsel, Section 26-22 of the
Code of Ordinances of the City of Dublin, Georgia, which reads
as follows:
"Assemblies obstructing streets, public places, prohibited
It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble in a crowd so as
in any manner obstruct the street passage of the streets, side
walks, public ways and public grounds in the city. Each person
forming a part of such assemblage, after noticed by any duly
constituted law officer having jurisdiction, shall be guilty of
a misdemeanor. 1937 Code, 163 Ordinance of 9-17-62."
And further: "Section 1-8 of the Code of Ordinances of
the City of Dublin. General Penalty. Continuing violations.
Any person guilty of the violation of the provisions
of tils Code, Ordinance of the City of Dublin, or doing any act
within the city prohibited by this Code, or an Ordinance of the
City, or failing to perform any duty required by same, unless
otherwise provided, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and shall
be punished at the discretion of the court by a fine not exceeding
$200.00 or by a imprisonment for a term not exceeding thirty (3)
days or in lieu of fine or imprisonment shall be sentenced to
labor upon the streets and side walks and other public works
of the city for a term not exceeding ninety days. The sentence
maybe in the alternative in which case if the fine and costs are
not paid the defendant will serve the sentence of imprisonment
or labor. Each day any violation of this Code or any Ordinance
shall constitute a separate offense."
THE COURT: All right.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, I have one more section I would
like to submit.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. MOORE: Chapter 22 of the Code of Ordinances of the
City of Dublin, Georgia, Section 22-2. Special policemen. In case
of emergency special policemen maybe appointed by the City Manager
(1937 Code, Section 19).
THE COURT: All right, nov/, that finishes the evidence,
as I understand on both sides?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir.
521
THE COURT: All right, now here is what I would like
to do and I want to see if you gentlemen have any objections to
it, 1 mean the two attorneys in this case, and that is 1 had
rather have briefs than arguments. I can get at the case better
in that way, I think, not that I am dispararity of your oral
arguments, but I can take your briefs home with me and read
them over and study them. I use to say before I went on the
bench that I would neeer do that, but I would like for each one
of you to send me a brief of your contentions. I want a statement
of fact first, your conclusions of law, and then I want your
judgment, your proposed judgment. Now, that is for each one
of you. Now, who is the plaintiff in this case? Who assumed
the burden in this case?
MR. MOORE: We did, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right, then suppose you send - well, I
can't compete with you all tattking out there, unless you want
to say something.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, my colleague seems to be under
the impression that we were assigned first, and to clear the
record up I would like to say that we are the plaintiffs in
No. 661, which is Gamble against Josey. We made a motion --
THE COURT: Yes, I understand that. You might be right,
but what I was trying to do was to give you the advantage here,
but as long as you make your motion it's all right. Anyway, the
522
the one who assumes the burden should have the opening and con
clusion, and to that end the plaintiffs in the case are required
to server their briefs, serve me with a brief, copy to opposing
counsel, within thirty days from this date, that is, after you
get the record from the Court Reporter, thirty days after you
and I received the record from the Court Reporter. And you all
make arrangements with the Court Reporter as to how and when
you can get the record. All right, then you serve them with
your brief within thirty days after you get the record and then
^e> turn, the defendants in turn shall serve you with a reply
brief within fifteen days. Also, send me a proposed Judgment
covering, as I stated, the statement of facts, conclusions of
law and the judgment and then a proposed order. I don't suppose
you all want to make an oral argument this afternoon, do you?
All right, then we won't have any oral arguments but will have
it by briefs.
MR. HAYES: Judge, on this proposed judgment, will you
state that again, covering what?
THE COURT: I want to get a proposed judgment the
questions of fact, as you understand they were produced here
in court, and then I want conclusions of law, I want the law
as you see it, and then I want a judgment prepared, and then you
send me your form that you think I should sign, and the other side
can send me their proposed order that he thinks I should sign.
523
Now, you all will have to make arrangements with the
Court Reporter as to you can get the record and every tiling. And
in the meantime this case is to remain in status quo. I am holding
you lawyers responsible for it, no demonstrations of any kind are
to be had in Dublin or anywhere else in that vicinity of Dublin
and Laurens County. I jam going to put in Laurens County. Didn't
you ask for an injunction?
MR. HAYES: Yes, sir, he did.
THE COURT: What did you ask for?
MR. MOORE: That the Chief of Police be enjoined from
intimidating or threatening them and --
THE COURT: (Interposing) Well, there won't be any
picketing until I file my final judgment.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor --
THE COURT: (Interposing) Certainly I am going to do
that. I am not going to have any picketing in the meantime.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, that is paramount to issuing
an injunction.
THE COURT: I am going to let it stand. This is the
order that I am passing, that there is no picketing and I am
going to hold you lawyers on that, on your side and on the other
side, both sides, responsible for any picketing, there will be
no picketing.
MR. HAYES: Judge; I don't want to be held responsible
for no picketing because I haven't got anything to do with the
524
picketing.
THE COURT: Well, I am putting it eaually on both sides.
Well, what are you asking them to be enjoined from?
MR. HAYES: We are asking for that.
THE COURT: And what else? You asked for something
in your pleadings, I thought.
MR. HAYES: That is what we are asking for.
THE COURT: I know that is primarily what you are
asking for.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, let me be heard further on that.
THE COURT: Wo, let me get through first. Let me see
if I have got everything that I wanted to tell you. As I said
today, in that statement, I thought perhaps it was unwarranted,
taking all the facts of the case in, that I would report this
to the grand jury. I am not going to do that. I am going to hold
that in abeyance. I am not going to do anything about that. If
somebody else does it, I won't have a thing to do with that. I
don't think anybody else would, and I am not going to do it. I
am going to hold all of that in abeyance as of today. I understand
there is no picketing up there today. T^at is correct, is it not?
Just let it all stand in status quo.
MR. HAYES: These cases in the Recorder's Court?
THE COURT: Everything. I am going to let everything
stand in abeyance until you all can get the record and I can
render my judgment. It won't take me long after I get the record.
525
MR. MOORE: Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. MOORE: There is a matter of ;cases pending in the
Recorder's Court, do I understand that the Respondent, Mr. Wilkes,
and Mr. Hayes are not to proceed?
THE COURT: That's correct. They cannot proceed with
the prosecution of those cases until my final orddr is passed
in this case.
MR. MOORE: And one other thing,Your Honor, your order
says no picketing.
THE COURT: I don't want any picketing and I do not
want any trial of any cases.
MR. MOORE: Couldn't we have picketing at least to the
extent the City Manager will permit?
THE COURT: No, I am not going to do that. There is not
to be any picketing whatever, and no trial of any case. I think
that is fair on both sides.
MR. MOORE: But normal picketing --
THE COURT: (Interposing) That's all right. I am passing
that order. I am trying to get this thing adjusted and the only
way I can get it adjusted, as I see it, is to stop both sides,
stop him from trying the cases. Now, that is just as fair as
can be. No picketing and no trial of cases. Now, that's it.
Now, that is the order of the court and I will prepare a formal
526
order on this and file it with the clerk of the court and every
body will be nn notice. Now, I do want to say that I think the
case was handled in an orderly way. I think it was handled well
on both sides.
MR. MOORE: Your Honor, 1 would like to file certain
amendments and responses to the counter-claim and ---
THE COURT: (Interposing) Well, you can do that. Any
brief you want to file, you are at liberty to do so. Now, there
was one other thing that I had in my mind, tfhat in the world
was it? I do not want any violation of this oral order which
I am going to reduce to writing and file with the clerk of the
superior court of Laurens County, and I think that is fair, to
stop him from trying the cases and to stop you all from picketing.
MR. MOORE: Now, does your order relate to all the cases?
THE COURT: Yes, everything is held in abeyance. That
covers everything. But today I did think it was rather unfair
when I said that I was going to have this reported to the grand
jury. I thought that might have been construed as being a little
intimidating, or could be construed that way, so just disregard
what I said. I dont think it was exactly fair. Now, with that
we stand adjourned.
THE MARSHAL: Take a recess until further notice.
(END OF TRANSCRIPT)
CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER.
I, the undersigned, Alton L. Watson, Official Court
Reporter for the United States District CQurt for the Southern
District of Georgia, do hereby certify that the foregoing FIVE
HUNDRED AND TWENTY SIX (526) Pages of typewritten matter is a
true and correct transcript of the evidence and proceedings had
in the trial of the heretofore stated to the best of my skill
and ability.
I further certify that I am not of counsel to any of
the said parties, nor related by blood or marriage to any of
the said parties, nor to their counsel, nor interested directly
or indirectly in the outcome of said case.
Witness my hand and official signature,
Alton L. Watsnn, U. S. Court Reporter.