Evers v. Jackson Separate Municipal School District Transcript 2

    A

pep;
to® study to vhlohyou just 2?®faired.

A# Yea, gif, \ > ' wV. . £.

H 8 | U D t  I offt? tola 1 * 0  evidence. 

9pl OOBBTt I®t it be received la evidence
(Same receive
<l* I ask, Dr.

opinion on
AA« Yea.
cW !(&rt+ 4 n fViMficuw UU&L

A

And the conclusion of your atasSy on that sub 
these factors do or do not affect toe difference?

the «nvircaxaent ha® alnest a negligible effect 
Have you made a ainilar study of any let a! of toe available 
literature on the twin studies to which you referred?
Yaa‘ *»% I brought up the rats because it is «•
•patrol children toe way you can animal*. y mat apologia® 
for toe iatS| but it v&s toe only one In which pealiv ♦.yK?T,, 
waiS a control, flow, in oasea of twins there have been fifty 
Etudl*» of identical and fraternal twine, and the oonoensus 
is that 75 percent of the difference st^ pe thcoe fraternal 
tirtna can be accounted far by heredity* only 85 percent by 
enviroenont. Bat has been accepted by geneticist* everywhere
it* -—  tint in Irradon and I think everybody vtio has studied 
toe subject.

^  R “ t’* 35 P®’0® *  of the difference, and not 25 percent of the 
entire tost?

A



Yeu can’t break clown a score Into heredity or environment j
29*

you can only break down what awtfaas people very.
I show you at this time what purports to be an article 
entitled '‘Genetics ami Intelligence, * by Henry E« Garrett, 
and ask it this is the study to which you lust referred?
Yes, 1 think X cams up with 72 percent there, but 73 is 
often quoted, and it’s close enough, that ves based on fifty 
studies*
Dc you know of any actual studies to the contrary, any 
substantially serious studies which would disagree with you on

I a. 9WjLg » £
Ho.

THE OOUKPt Let me ask here: Are you offering that 
in evidence?

MR* LEC8AKD; X asked that it be marked in evidence,
THE COtiHTt X didn’t hear you. Let that be received 

in evidence* ,*■
sas received In evidence and Marked as Intervener’s Exhibit No*7) 
In tenon of this cultural change which you have referred to,
Br* Garrett, as theoretically Changing the gap which exists 
between the two races and which you have stated these studir 
tend to disprove, do you know of any long-range figures 
which have been used on these gaps to determine whether 4 
change of & culture over a long period of time has in f 
lessened toe gap between the two groups? Has such a <



for exaaple, been made in Wilmington that you k m  of?
Gh. I thought you wanted historical studios.

The Wilmington study oospore! the relative position 
In a. tssaber of tests of the Hegro and white students 
some 55 years ego, and again In the last year or two* and 
the gap vti as great as It was then, In spits of the obviously 
very auoh Increased social and economic condition of the 
Hegro children* It's exactly the sane result that the 
Jackson schools shoved In that 1927 book on the O'Shea report. 
You are referring to the O'Shee report which Dr. Walker 
participated in?
Yes*
find the figures there are substantially the sane as the figures 
they have today?
just the s m s *  Forty years made no change*

Has there been, in your opinion, Doctor, any substantial 
change in the position of the Hagro in Jackson, Mississippi, 
in the forty years intervening?
Hot from that report* That's all X can judge by*
Ho, X naan in the cultural position of the Hagro in Jackson.
Oh, X thiatf certainly from a standpoint of social and economic 
change there's been terrific inpeovement*
And that Is without any substantial effect, apparently, on
the figures which show the aeasurmaentsf
Yfee* Of course, the n&ttve African had 5,000 years, in which
there was no change



296
0, You saean culturally epeaklag?
A* tfsll, they were earned to various types of eulture, but their- 

own status did not loprove as ite* as any developnaat of culture 
of their own is ©oacemad*

Qjt fbwnttnrt giir̂gj (fepp$tt, Wh*t ifl thS al g»4
of these dlfftorsnoes, as you see it?

A* Well, tfofr would be thlst
If you hawe two groups, one with the average IQ centering 

around 00, and the other, IDO, if they are thrown together 
in ymaqft claasrocK, if tHt standards are set so that the 
lower group can do the work, fifty percent of the other group 
will not get sn education*

On the other hand, if you set the standards far the 
uooer imam, tcu have soot fifty to sixty percent of your lower 
prrrMtp «hc are not ttoiXiSL to be educated* Thev *?on*t he .̂bie to 
follow the work, with #»# results of drop-outs, frustrations 
and the go with it*

Q* la this reaction at all affected by the teacher-pupil
mi ycBi see it?

A* X think very directly so*
Q,o In what way?
A, yell, the pupil responds to the teacher, aytd if the

teacher understands has **"**» irf̂ i of «a^
qpbtlt1*!* m  the jMiyrfi doae, there is wp*** likely to be 
rapport and resulting «et* efturt1.on th**̂  there la with 
a pawKft. whose gy ter*? fltfr-f'tttd* «v* outlook is very



m

different.
Q,. ifellf you were talking before about the fhct that there appears 

to be & $egro and a whits study of educability pattern* Would 
thin apply as winch to the teachers as to the pupils?

A* X think 00.
Q» And would It, In such s case# be educationally advantageous 

la your opinion to have teachers and pupils with essentially 
the saae pattern?

A* It certainly would look so. That's what X was trying to say# 
that the rapport would certainly be greater where they 
have the sans attitudes*

Q.„ Would this be essentially the asm if they had the sane sduc&~ 
tional background or a different educational background as long 
as their education was superior to that of the children?
As long as their education was what? 
Superior to that of the children.

A, Yes.
Q. In other words# is the pattern sasre important than what we 

«ight call the foctroi scholastic standing of the teachers?
A. X would say the pattern is mace important,
Q, And this pattern is# in terns of educating the chiId# the aost 

important of the teacher's qualifications# in essence?
A* That's right.
Q,» Dr* Garrett# Mr. Pifctaaa calls ray attention to a Kent

County study that was node at cos tine. Do you recall that?
Sent County# Ontario?



298
Ju
A

A«

As

4I 11
ft%4

■fecit County* Ontario? Yes*
Soil us sceethlng About that study.
Vail* the negroes that lived in Ontario* in Canada* for a 
hurrj^a years* a great many of them case in on tsK&rgpound 
railroad* wad there had never been any segregation* She negro 
group were Bashers of the oomtamity. Shey did segregate 
thosselses In a sens®* or separated theuselves* the way 
people do* but there was no legal compulsion* Shay went to 
school with the white ohUdren* And this study was deco in 
1939$ and at that tine the difference In ashlevoaent
of the two g r e w  was m  great an it is in the United states —  
that is* the Begro group lags behind the white group* with an 
overlap of something W m  33 to 20 percent*
Dr* Garrett* do you keep abreast of all the educational news 
cowing out of Sew York City* as far as the papers are 
concerned?

Ytep* I try to.
Are you aware of the recent efforts they are asking in 
to Increase the standards of the Karim schools?
I’ve rood sene of it*

and overseas the lag which they have found* What 1 want 
to ask your opinion about* Dr* Garrett* Is this:

Is It better in a school in which the school population is 
casentiAlly Hegro* to wove at a pace which fits the negro’s 
lssssdlate capability* or to drive to a higher level in order 
to try to tasks them fit e ness?



akilitlOJSi.* you driveTO eewe at the rate idiich fits his oap«*u~u 
frl« &t a hi^ier rat®# you vill have trouble*

it: the effort they are ©slag to makeuXSderBtC*!*! Wj »"•* ”* v i# wHow* as X
q half Yoj^  at chl-i tiffifc is im aoBclal classes which willCO 99b tv* igjrw t<4*»-fc

..._-. vwt fA «*i~t of these peoplego beyond even the oonas end try to neons au
back up* , * __.- .0 «■ a* <  vmubstisk you at this vick r. Garrett, 1

whether tr. this is liable to wwoe student more ©ducate

'&11* they won’t saaê aed, in the first place* sod it*a net 
going to succeed, sod such little success as they achieve 
vill probably make the student lass educated* became he
viiH  be more confused*

Is that the Haryou project in Barlem?
That’s the one X understand* the Haryau effort* by putting 
money into iy>rvysw&fl<̂r? education, the theory 
can drive this up* Vhat X was asking you was whether yew think 
It **» be driven up* or Whehther it has to proceed at a pace
that seta itself*
Wall, isn’t that the general theory* that by education and 
social reform* you can change people fundamentally? —* Which, 
of course* you can’t do* and which we have failed in so often 
before*
Do you know of any examples of pupils who have b&crt placed in 
schools in which they a w  not really fitted to go into and 
vhsfc happens to in terms of their mental and physical
health?



Well* there ere a good many of those* they are anecdotal, 
and anecdotes are not offered in evidence, shut they are 
very suggestive* In Charlottesville, Virginia, they hare put 
MSB IVegroes Into the high school# s high school of sore 
1200 white students with about JO negroes is It now, and 
aooordlng to the counselors snet of them are not very happy* 
Xhey hang together in a little clique, as though they are 
reinforcing each other* Four of thaa dropped cut during the 
year sod asked to go* Share were several eases of so-called 
nervous breakdowns, which can taean rest anythin ft hasn*t 
been happy*
Do you consider this a normal result of attempting «*~
A normal result of an abnormal situation, I think, yea*
But you previous2y discussed. Dr* Garrett, the existence of 
separate patterns here for these groupsyhe question la, if 
you try to ooofent them to a pattern, is this a unreal
result,as you see it as an educator?

Xa there a stress upon the in bains placed in a 
pattern which is not fitted—
—  Tee* Of course there is* X vaSn’t sure whether we were o 
the eare wave length then*
Does such a stress affect hia education?
X think so, yea*
Are there any other natters, Dr* Garrett, which yoy think 
bear upon the question which is before this Court?



A. 'Hell* X think this question of eiryviroraaenfc* that vet ought
301

to consider that all of the evidence that we hwnt would ce«a 
to Indicate that racial difftnooos «i*e far suxre — — act 
determined to a far greater Aagree tor heredity than by 
eiwirorangmt, Ybu Iwe the anatomical evidence, which, you are 
going to bring or here, the psychometric evidence, testing, 
the historical evidence —  dtlct, for m, at least, la 
$ult» conducive —  and then you have the social evidence 
with scold behavior* which seems to me to indicate a kind of 
Immaturity In many of these children, which is matched by 
their patterns of growth in studies made in Uganda, Kenya, 
East Africa* showing that the ffegro child there grows up 
fast* hit® hit peak early, and after that he doesn't go any 
farther* And ves have that same pattern in this country. The 
overlap in the 1st grade In Virginia in a statewide survey 
chewed almost m  difference in the kindergarten and let grade 
level. After that, they pulled apart steadily, so that by the 
time you got to the high school, it was m  longer a gap; It was 
a chasm.

How, X think you would have to take account of that 
difference in educability, which is a result of a having or 
not having abstract Intelligence, lfod&m technical I, • . • 
civilisation depends on that. That is probably, in an 
evolutionary sense, the last thing that has developed in 
man, and the difference between the md huts of the Congo 
and the oathsdrals of Europe star it in a concrete way.



392

H*

Wall, let m  say this, Dr* Garrett;
Taking that aid interpreting it in tanas of actual 

curriculum isn't it pawBible to teach, the steam subject 
matter in one fwwe 1a  abstract f9w and in the other 
case in essentially aemary foxvf?
Well, up to a certain 1 m l *  You get to a point where you 
can no longer do that*
And would. toe t *EMA patterns we have heed discussing in this

A .

Court, for enople* the two entirely different patterns which 
we have been testifying about, suggest possibly different 
treatments of the sane subjects—
7804
—  to those two groups?
Yfe*« flhgfc was done in Wilmington, Barth Carolina# very 
successfully sad was satisfactory to all concerned..
Have you heard about special primers they have boon using in 
acme places in the Barth?
Yea, I have seen then*
And otherwise In terse of these sesxtal Characteristics of 
the early age and the early maturity* would this suggest to you 

the type of driving instruction Which Dr* Barter has 
to is the type of instruction which is best# 

essentially# for the Uegro# sc opposed to the white child?
Xt seens so# certainly*
Would it be USilusion then that not only separate# but



H03
diiSnwtt schools — —

“*  W6 WMBtfelAHy ZS<2UjbESd ill Q3"<$3J? to graart t^osl a fa n a tl^ î

opportunity?
Bjual educational opportunity is a fallacy if they are the 
&W&4 They are ns longer equal* The opportunity has to 
be adjusted to the potential of the child* and people she 
quote with groat glibaeaa of equality of opportisilty are 
saying precisely nothing* It has to be an opportunity which 
is adjusted to the level of the learning,

Ifit* LEOKAHD: That Is all X have.
TEE COOFTs Any erase examination?
NR* BELLi Vc will just Bate the mam objection regarding 

the relevancy of the beetlaany*
THE CQUBTt Very well. 1st thee objection be overruled.
HR. CAESADAi The defendants would ijfaw to adopt the 

testimony of Br* Garrett. 
mz GOOWi very veil.

(witness excused)
THE COCOTt At this point we will recess until o'clock 

h&xan&if men •Ring.

(Whereupon the court was recessed until the following day)



(Wednesday* Magr 20# 196A# the trial vu resumd)
MR. IBOBARD* We w ill c a ll Dr, Frank 0, MeONarj

ttvs.
- o f shology* Alabssa College,> He haa

, 0©i ŝ osnsi*

(The eltaess v it  duly secret)

sxt. C, y, Kcoasg,. coiled as a z ib e t s  and having lx

ism# testified  as J» o3p «jL̂ W& $

m m a f E xm w & nm

W tJSmAmfriti* zaum Di

I6?«. MtsQtoplZt vould you please Identify yourself? What it your 
present en̂ loyraent?
Professor of Psychology at Alabtam. College,
® w  7®u done any prior teaching at any other institutions? 
Ssu^it at the University of Pennsylvania* Catholic University 
At Xahigt University* West Point* YUlsnova University,
That’s the United States Military Academy?
Xfc la»
What degrees do yen hold?
Bachelor of Science* Master of Arts froa the University of
Pennsylvania., PSD in Psychology free Catholic University*
What subject uas your mater in?
Psychology.
Are you a amber of any professional organisations?

Would you please state those to us* sty of the principal 
organ!, gations of . dtloh you are a lamber?



305
A* I ant c. Essmber of the asaecutive board of Aaeric&n Institute- of

Medical ClJmtologyj araaber of Aaerlean Psychological Association; 
member of the American Eugenics Society* and a raambea? of the
Society of &t&a& Pel*

0,* Is Slgra& Pei a profssslonal honor society?
A* It is the professional research. hqnm« society.
(In Shank you. i '7 ^ y. . p  ;

MR* 1B0RABD* 1 will offer in evidence a statement of the 
qualifications of Dp, F. C, J. M-3Gurk> Professor of Psychology, 
Alabama College,, and ask that it be marked in evidence*

IKE COUETi let it he received la evidence.,
(Base .received in evidence and taerksd as Inter fenor’s Exhibit Bo. 3) 

Dr* KcQurk* have you published any work in the field of racial 
psychology?

A* I have,
Q* Could you give us some sxspyleat
A She first om appeared in 19̂ 3. Would you like m  to detail 

tlnesa?
Q* So, just generally,
A* fie first article was in 19 3̂? and it dealt with school

ability of children in Rlchaond, Virginia, 1951 I published 
an article dealing with the teat scores of Begro and white 
children in the Barth- 1953# two studies dealing with Begrc 
and white differences, 1956, a study, and in 1959 or *50 
another study dealing with the sans material,

Q.* What was your subject of your doctorate thesis?



306
Tt*XV

Qt
Ami

vqb a study of the test score differences of Uegro sad 
white high. school seniors.
Xs that on© of the studies you have Just referred to?
»  I*. AAA AA AA® #
As a setter of tMoJoground, Doctor, to extent is there 
®ay noanlng la the testing such aa you sere doing la terns 
of predictability or academic or scholastic success?
The psychological tests are Measures of the ability of «
"hP of children to achieve in school. $bsy are Measures of school 
achievement abilities.
In other words, the groupie probable suocess aptitude can
be sheen by testing?
n*.

Has the testing which you have dons and of lfeldh you know In
this field iadiavlg4 that
'v̂ twssn ]$?*><?ro end whlte oh
Well, on evsry study that
the Hegre*8 average score

A<

white average score*
Bo they differ at all in their educational aptitude by 
subject scatter, aa far aa you know?
$o the extent that these tests are noasures of scholastic 
abhleveasnt, there la a difference,
la other words, the tests which are currently used, by and 
-Birge, shew a difference in scholastic aohisveasnt by subject?



©jif tents cm the face do not* by implication, they do* Since 
the teste esc related to aehtevensnt, then one can project from 
the fprwuirirtgc of the test snore the scholastic achievement*
THangp those are the mental maturity type testa that you are 
talking about now?
Yoc, they are aoraotiaes called that*
And either- by correlation or direct imputation the oo-ceXLrd 
achievement tests by subject matter then would follow this
cut?
Yes, but always by correlation.
I see. Do you know of any explanation which has been given 
fbr these difibrsnoee which has to any extent been studied 
by you?
Yfes. rt*s hard to say when it was first announced, but 
the usual explanation Is now known as the cultural hypo­
thesis*
Could you explain what that means jand tell us where it 
started? ? _
X just don't know where it started, but I do know that it 
la held widely awing sociologists, widely, and widely among saae 
psychologists* point they try to make is these test score 
differences are caused, directly caused by differences in 
socio-economic status, or culture status, that one group is 
more acoulturnted than the other*
In other words, If I understand this correctly, it is that



fclncG the Hagro in Ajserlea is viewed as being in a lover

■■*. A A&e

cultural status than the Udtti as an assumption* 2 presume ̂ 
for this theory? 
that's true*
And the test results will necessarily be lover?

A* Yha,* "■’• ■jawf.-y #
VeU* does the cultural hypothesis then say anything about 
how to change this?

^  A- As stated by Blimbeasg* —  and this is not a word for word 
etatoiaent* text it'i pretty close to the word for word meaning «~ 
that as the socio-economic status of the negro as a group 
becomes closer to the oooio-*econcBd.c status of the whites 
as a group, teat score differences will disappear*

[Bfl

•

In other words* this hypothesis says that if you bring thorn up 
to the sane socio-ecoaotaic status* there will be no nose 
difference between them in achicveraorrt or in mental maturity?

A. Well; own more then that* because as you bring them up to 
this identical* as you faring them from this status* then* 
that there will be a constant reduction In test score dif­
ferences! as there Is a constant reduction in socio-eoonoaio 
differences* there is a constant reduction la test score 
differences*

y & £  Q*
’ . • A/£%*■-j 
A
A

Xa there any way that tills hypothesis can be tested* Doctor? 
H b *
HOW?
veil* 2 tested It in 2951.



309

ft

a

L

ft<4

I simply the soolo-econcedc status of a group
of Wegpo and white Children*
Before no caaa to that* has there boon any other work done 
In an effort* before jours?
X think not*
—  In an effort to natch socioeconomic conditions?
Have there been any reliable studios in the field* other 
than yours* which have used a broad saespli 9 ?
10s 4 Z think It night be veil far ns to modify shat I lust 
said* There have boon studies prior to nine that did use 
gocio-ecomnic status as one of the test variables* but no 
studies prior to that attempted to show that as the difference 
decreased In socio-econonio status* the teat differences 
decreased*
I ew< Prior to that tine* they used stable groups* X take It?

A
VJr*

T&s, gonorally.
m  other words* it use lust a simple equating* bub without any 
effort to do it on a proportionate or percentage basis? To find 
whether it increased variably*
Without any attempt to nehe & change In the variable called 
socioeconomic status*
Were any studies pads about the time of World War Z?
During World War X* a study was done by a group of Army 
psychologists headed by Xerkes* In which they tested a great 
number of white and Sfegro draftees*
What conclusion did they reach?



330
JL wan* they c m i  to the eartlMlM that for the netlegfre * 

aholc, And peotty sauch state by state* that the SOgro group 
overlapped the average soars of the shite group by about ST* 
26* 29 percent*

Q, vjhst overlap would roan that the tv© groups ©ere the sans? 
A. 30 percent.
Ct« And the overlap found la World War X was £7 percent?
A* Sjr to 30 percent*
0. With the changes which have occurred In the culture of 

Americans sines World War X* has this overlap substantially
changed today?

A* It has not decreased very such,
Q» Have there been studies on test score differences Which

you have prepared for your work:? Are you faadLllar with the 
test score differences generally In the literature?
fes.

Q, When you said before that they all show the ams results* 
that these differences In achlevutaent* difference In Men­
tality* do exist* are you saying that they are all consistent 
to *h*,» end? There are no contradictions in it?

A* It think- it*a feir to say that they are consistent. X know 
of no study that has ever been done* ever* in which the 
Itesro group achieved an average score equal to the white 
group* X know of no study.

Qv ifow* that would not be Halted to the South* X take it?
A» SO* no 90* no.
A  Would it aafeanft ta k w h s  iS ihS  the social status



was the same?
j.- \\ '} ' « •' : l . '_*A \ r & j • 'v "  r .i . i

Ar ike.
Q. Do you know of any ttoavdss?
A. The earliest one I can think of is Tanaer’s study,. Tamer’s 

study vas done in Kent County, Ontario, Canada* which was 
dom in 1939* Now, Kent County was the northern terminus of the
underground railway during the Civil War, and met of the

whoNegjxras/got into Kent County were escapees from the United 
States, and they were accepted in Canada pretty ouch without 
prejudice and without any discrimination, and yet the average 
scores of the children who were their descendants Is about 
equal to the average scores of the Negroes la Jfew York City —  

that Is, considerably below whites.
Q. What was the p w n t sga of overlap which Tamer found?
A« Hr recollection is that it’s around IT to 20 percent.
Q, In other w  ?ds, less than Yerkea fbuo£ in World War I on Alli

Negroes in the United States, includi m  the South?
A. Yes,
Q. was a study ever made in this field by Bruce?
A, Bruce did a study In this country. Be was concerned with 

Virginia children, young Virginia Children.
Would you identify Bruce for us?

A. Bruce is a psychologist who is now out of the field. She is 
married, I understand, and is no longer participating in these 
endeavors.

<U

511

Who was she with?



312
n

o.

Afi,.

*a •

Gk

3ho ¥88 at Ctolanbia University- if X recall correctly, and was, 
X thin!:, a pupil of KXinebergc,
What yes the subject of her study?
She Virginia children, Negro and White, in the lower grades*
She natohod a group of white children against Negro children 
£os> eoovee on socio-e conastc measure which waa currently used 
at that time* and found that cyan when socio-econocdc 
status was nor© actual she called it ^practically equal' 
at first —~  even under those circumstances , the Negro scores 
wore much lower than the white ocoroa*
Hist degree of overlap did she find?
20 or 15 —  Around 15 percent, X believe*
In other words, considerably lower than the overlap of *31 
the scores of Negroes tasted In World War X?
Yes, touch lower*
Even after all this — — Even after sb© had rado this equating 
of the social oondltiona of bar whita and Negro subjects?
Xfes*
Did Dr* Saucy ever wake a study in that field?
Lftuay studied a |$?oup of very select students frost & IJjr#
York university*
Would you Identify Dir* Shuey for us?
Shisey is now Professor of Psychology at Bandblph-Mocon College
for Women*
Sac she ever written in this field that you know of?
Yee* She wrote the study on the New York group, and then she



313
Is the author of the book known ae fCTIHG 0? S 
SKSLUCESOE*
Xb that a comprehensive book?
Very ccnprabeostvou
Xn your opinion, is It a valid text on tbs subject?
I think It is* I think It is a perfectly grand survey of the 
field, '
Aa3. what van Br* 3fauey*s work at How York University?

selected her subjects so that she could match a Itegro 
abject and a white subject when both of them were considered 
almost Identical la aocicHBoenomtc status, and there were a 
uuEsberof matching criteria so that & great many people were 
rejected from her studies because they did not satisfy the 
criteria*
Would you give us sods examples of the criteria you are referring 
to that are used to measure socioeconomic status?
Xn connection with Shusy, Z oan recall that one of the matching 
factors was the place of birth of the father. If the father 
of the subject was horn, out of the country, out of New York 
City that student was matched with someone Whose father was 
boom out of Hew York City* It the subject’s father were bom 
abroad, then that subject would have to be matched with armfry* 
whose father was born abroad. If the subject had attended a 
jeGregated school ami had moved Hbrth, then that subject was 
*®*&3had with another one who, as closely as possible, approximated 
the type of school from which the subject came.



Of course* that was not possible In all oaaes* but matching 
was exceedingly close aojordlng towhat ah© thought*
Bow about salaries, vagss?
Wage was a matching factor*
Boat paid?
X don’t recall that that was specifically a matching factor. 
Well-, ere there any e concede factore generally* as to the 
femtly bacJcgrouad as well as the amount — ~
Education of the parent was a matching factor*
®be type of education which had already been gotten?
And the amount*
Whet was Shusy*© conclusion In this?
^lusy found that the overlapping vm sensrubere in the 
nsl̂ ibcxrhood of 20 percent* acomdier® in that neighborhood* 
Xn other wards, a gain* less of an overlap than vas found 
on all negroes and whites in World War I by Ycrkes?
Yea* in spite of the fleet that this was an exceedingly 
selective group. Exceedingly selective*
Bas any study been made, to your Jdaovlodge* by Brown in 
this?
Bream did the study in the Minneapolis kindergarten*
Who was 23k* « Broun?
X don't know Brown* X don't know whether ho is an educator 
or a psychologist or What*
What is the nature of his study.
Be studied the test scores of white mid llegro JdLndergarten

314



children in Minneapolis* That’s preschool children* and Z
515

assins —  he didn’t state in the study, but X assnxse the 
children were about five years old.

Q. old he notch tham at all for status?
A. He m/3& no afcbanpfc to match them for status, but commented 

that since they were children and dace they were young and 
attending kindergarten that we could assume that the children 
were somewhat more equal In socio-econoolo status than If they
were older children* since they were In kindergarten* there would 
be leas disparity in socio-economic status.
What overlap did hi find in kindergarten?

A. 51 percent. How, he did not say this, but by re-studying 
his figures, 1 computed 31 percent* He stated that there 
wns no difference between the white and Negro children •
As a matter of fait, the difference is very large and 
statistically significant.

Q. And on the tests which you have known of and on the figures 
which we have had, if there’s a 31 percent overlap of the 
kindergarten grade, dots that slay the same thereafter, or does
it tend to diverge?

A. That 31 percent is the largest percent of overlapping of
which X know.

<£, This is on kindergarten children?
A* Oh kindergarten children.
Q. And that as we cams up to World War I, the ago of the draftees

it
in World War l/ms 2f percent.



And when vo sot to tbs people by Ets*. Siuey at IffU, it was 
vhat?
Z think 17 to 20 percent# In that rengo.
Shank you*

Oo you know of a study cade fay Bhoads and others?
Bhonda and others did a study in Hilladelphia,
Would you identify the© for os?
Stooada was a medical doctor*, physician, a pediatrician, Z 
believe, Interested at the time la the affects of canned 
BttZk on the growth rate of children. The psychological study 
was an off-shoot of that*
Vh&t sea the nature of the study he made?
The children were very young# scragwhor j/~X thirty the study 
started vken the child was somewhere around six months of 
age* And there were several physical examinations« As I 
reoall# the children were examined physically periodically 
every six months# and those children who failed to jseop an 
â Rpointaent to come in far the six month check-up vex® 
automatically dropped from the study. How, that means each 
^iild was examined physically so and so many times during the 
study, and the psychological tests were given when t*>*n*> 
children were la the neighborhood of a^o 3, so thH they 
had had a lot of study prior to that, and fay the m «*> ^

**5® 3# all the people who ware ready to drop out had dropped
out.
Vat' there ujy matching for sodo-econctaic status?



317
A. Hot deliberately, but ei me the study vas doaa on oliildrer* 

uho wore called "deprived children,,f and since all of them 
lived in the slum area of Philadelphia, it vaa assumed that 
mat of were of most comparable socioeconomic status 
than would have been under other circumstances*

Q,. And what was the overlap he found?
A* Dr* Hhoadc didn't publish any overlap, but again, eomputing 

on the basis of hie figures, my reooUection la that it vas 
around 25 percent, plus or minus*

Q* Went, vhat vas your study in this field?
A* Hy study vas —  Each one of these studies that I have 

•W k*d to you about vaa in some vay defective} they either 
matched socio-economic status by hoping that it vas equal, 
or they did some such thing that wasn't quite satisfactory*
What I vented to do vaa to match the soc io-economic 
status on some objective and clear-cut basis and hold to it, 
and find out whether, as ELI isberg stated, there vas a 
change in tost score difference as there vas a chsago in 
socio-economic status* Shis would be, in effect, testing 
the culture hypothesis*

So 1 developed a rating instrument for rating socio­
economic status of the subject, and then on the basis ~  

Describe it for us*
i* It vas vhat is called the aims Bating Scale, S-i-m-e, 

the Sims Bating Scale. It had been used for years prior to the

Q*
A.

«*. d m o i H i m



w m m m
218

In it* such as* "Does your family have & telephone?" yell* 
by the tian 1 \jxu hold of it* everybody had a telephone so 
that it doesn't much matter* fixings like that bad to be 
gotten out. So vs tasted the test end threw out a lot of
fefafi* ittMi th&t VCM not f11 siniti ̂Inatini? DQOOlQ «*<*>•»
that is* everybody had a telephone* that's not an important 
question* or if nobody had something* that's not important.

X ended up vith fourteen things that were important:
One was the mother's education* the father's education} the 
occupation of either the mother or the father* depending on 
who it was who earned the living for the feaUyj the membership 
in clubs for the mother —  rfeoiliea where the mothers 
Delons to clubs are usually higher in status than families 
where mothers do not belong to clubs. 1 found the number of 
cooks in the hone an IjQ&ortant thing. And altogether* fourteen 
of such items* which I could enumerate for you exactly if you 
wish.

Q» And this vaa the basis of your pairing of these groups?
A. fills vaa* but in this fashion: The score that the Negro subject 

obtained on t***” rating scale hamum rj>e criterion fo r «?*-t.qfa:ng 
a white subject with him.

Q* in  other words* they were paired?
A* They were paired* so that the white subject was paired

permanently with a Negro subject* so that in each case each of



the two children had exactly the saw* scores on the socio­
economic scale, cm? if that was not possible., then the 
white subject bad e lower score in cyvory case. In no case
—  We can eay It this way? 2a no oasc did the white have 

, < r . T 
a higher socioeconomic statue than the negro.

Q„ Da the test itself and. in your test construction, Dr. Motok, 
wouldn’t you nevertheless ham favored the whit© group by 
having cultural questions in your tost?

A. In the teat* there’a a possibility* but in this socio-economic 
business that we’re talking about, that did not enter.
That’s clear.

Q,* In other words, the tack ground wee th© asms in both cases 
ffca? each of the pairs, or the white was lower?

>*■ "  ■ ■ . ’ ' u .V .  ^

A. Tbs,
Q. How, as to the construction of the test which you gave itself?
A. The measuring inetnsaont-

The measuring lostrwaant* Were you able to waaovo the cultural 
effects from that?

A. In part.. In part. Bo-f, what I did there was to go throng a 
file ef old poyohoiogicaJ. tests,and at random I picked every 
10 err* 12 questions and ended UP with about 500 questions*
We submitted the 500 questions to several groups of children 
and threw away all the questions that were failed by 80 

percent an/ throw ewsgr all the questions that veav* passed 
tqr 80 paroonfc of the sacg>le. That took care of the easy 
questions nod tfee hard questions* Then I bad the remining



quostious which ware now down tO, Xet*s say, 125 **M̂  I*w 
fcygot'ton ams <yy&3tiy •*’**•*' but X took the rm>BA Bing quosticcs to 
a group 9t school teantier*, sociolUiigisita and payohologists 
acd others, * group ©f about 900 actually, ©ad lashed ttei if 
tlM?7 vouM rate thaso questions into three piles* 1 had the 
Questions printed cor gut at ion on & single 2 by 5 aard, ana I 
gave then this great bif. stack of cards and said, ”Bsta those 
questions# put over here those you think are taeaviiy culturally 
loaded, and put ovor here those you think are not heavily 
culturally loaded, and put in the center those you think you 
can’t make up your sUnct about*1

X3taf06Pbis8Bt©3y» out of U s  300 Of so people, less than 
90, X guess 9 separated the questions* ‘Bie others either 
got confused or didn*t feel like doing it* So that on the 
basis of between 90 and 75 people, I had then a pile of 
questions that school teachers and sociologists considered 
culturally loaded fad another pile not considered by the® 
ho&viiy culturally loaded* Mow, there11# no question about 
getting rid of culture* You just don*t do it* But — —  

q , Well* we’re speaking about it here- What dost culture mean 
in a test question?

A* A sociologist namd Harrell wrote a great, big, thick treatise 
on it, and he caid nI don’t kxsmr*”
Have you iaproved on that*?
X have not*

* What d M  you do with the heavily loaded cultural

QH,'

A*
Q., All rlgttfe



qwstlornj-?
A in

A'■'V

T r-':r:.;-Su,rix̂j.-c:: tiiea® two piles j the heerity loaded \ 
questions tlx£ not heavily loaded qpMt&Mi wihj 
I'smtatiiriityiwl to group of subjects* and I aerated the 
amber of subjects vao got each quest&m corxoctj so that fop, 
leb*s assy, 123 questiOGB* I could toe& pat the questions into 
order tey iihetbsi? they ver* culture questions ox not raXture 
questions in tames of the hardest dossi to the lowat* in tzvm 

of the pâ xsiitfige of poopXe vho got each question correct*
©sen I
fey 65 3

euXtur
end a cultural question passed by 2£> percent of the subjects 
was pairs*a vtth a acsi-otllturel question passed by S3 percent 
of tbs subjects* Hie result sas 7% pairs of quest loos*
AM that*h the test.

j* v vteQti 3 tfae?a, so that for
Tcsnt ;• * -*•*"* *f■* > | £* fftfc fW 4 Jht /-v« NT»» i*'r. *.*s Wvfes*

que»tion passed by

All right* Would you state to we *$h«t the results of the tost 
showed?

A* She test u r s  adslaistaved to every high school that 1 could 

get lots in Banasylvaala and tfcv Jevoery, all unsegpeg&ied*
5tov» ̂ hcm you my ‘"uonagresatod,rs they actually had Itegro 
pupils it them* or vea It eir̂ ply stats Ian/ that they veran't

A* They actually had Sfcgro children in them*
Q, AM all of th<; i&gro children yc-u tools la this test t-*®:? 

attending an intatmixed high school/



322
A. Yes, and had been all their lives.
Q. And had been all their lives.
A. There are only fourteen schools that we could get into. Por- 

one reason or another, the schools were inaccessible or did 
not wish to cooperate, but we administered this test in fourteen 
different high schools in Southeastern Pennsylvania and Korthem 
Sew Jersey.

The results case out senna thing lilac this: As far as 
total score is concerned —  that la, culture score plus non­
culture score — as far as total score la concerned* the 
whites were higher in average than the negroes, and the overlap 
was about 27 percent —  that is, 27 percent of the Hegro 
children attained scores that were equal to or higher than 
the average score of the white children.

Q. in other words, exactly the 3arae, essentially, as Yerlfies 
had found in World War IT —

A. Yes.
Q, —  In 1916, voax all Btegroes of the united state®, includi ng 

the South?
A. Yes.
Q. And all schools, whether separate or mixed,
A. Well, 1 had no segregated schools.
Q. Ho, I don’t mean that. In World War X» I assume the Hsgroas 

tested in World War I oeme from all types of schools?
A1 Yes.
Q. And the overlap you determined fro© this culturally socio­



economically Batched set, with Negroes who had been brought up 
completely In Interracial schools , was the same as in World 
War I for the entire country, without limitation?

A. Yes* — Without limitation?
Q. In other words, me limitation of the World War I figures* 

Everyone who fougit in the services, I take it, was tested?
A* X don't think so. There were seme people taken in who were 

not examined. These were draftees. Volunteers I don't think 
were examined.

Q. I see.
Have you ever brought that study —  What was the date of 

that study?
A. This was in 1950, the spring of 1950.

.
Q. Did you at any time publish an article covering that work?
A. I did.
Q. Where?
A. It is published on micro-card, "Comparison of the Vast Scores 

of Negro and White High School Seniors," et cetera, Catholic 
University, Washington, D. C.

Q. I see. And have you at any time done any further work to either 
bring that up to date or to check it further?

A. Yes. I became interested in the figures showing the relation­
ship between the culture and the non-culture scores. Now, 
we were calling the the scores culture and non-culture, with



Q.

32*
the understanding that the culture sores were those considered 

heavily laden with culture, and the others not heavily laden 

with cultures so for the sake of ease of speaking, we refer 

to them as the culture scores and the non-culture scores*

Now, another one of the hypotheses that had been advanced 

by Kline berg and ease of his associates was that the reason 

Negroes obtained such low average scores on psychological 

tests was because the tests were weighted with culture, so 

to test this hypothesis, I coopered the culture scores —

—  This isn't the same as culture hypothesis?

A* No, this is somewhat different, but it's pinned to it.

Q« Distinguish the two for me*

A* Well, the culture hypothesis is a generic statement of the

problem, that the reason for any test score difference, culture 

or non-culture, any test score difference is because of the 

culture factor. Those who have the best culture, the widest 

possible culture, make better scores on psychological tests

than those whose culture is restricted* That is the general 

statement of the culture hypothesis* Now, as a sub-statement,

Kline berg had announced that the Negro pupils who had res­

tricted cultures were also deficient in their performance on 

verbally weighted material.

Q* What do you mean by that?

A* Verbally weighted. Such a question as this* ’’Mozart scored 

his symphonies in the key of what?"
Q* That would be -— ?

A. That would



325
Q* You think that vould be culturally loaded?
A. Ch, very. Very.
Q. What vould verbal be, as opposed to that?
A. Same thing. It vaa aasuud that vert*! queatloa vers culturally 

loaded*

Q. In other words, anything that you read Is culturally loaded,
In the sense that you have to learn to read?

A. I suppose you could drive It back to anything la words.
#  Q Anyth!* Is , you have to have *? culture* in order to

be able to appreciate It. How do you avoid this In testing?
1̂1, x started to say, there Is no clear understanding of 

what Is a culture thing and what Is a non-culture *Mnc 
because nobody knows what culture la,

Q. WOU, in this further test, what specifically were you trying 
to determine.

#  A. I was trying to detendne whether the test score difference,
whether the Negro-white difference, was greater on the 
culturally loaded questions than it was on the unloaded, or 
so-called non-cultural questions.

Q* 13 other Wide, the difference between whether they can recog­
nize the key of Mosart, one of Mcxart*s works, on the one hand, 
as against being able to recognise that music has tea^o?

A. Well, as an enable of a non-culture question, I think we 
used thisi H5Sse sun rises In the what?" Because it was 
sasuaed that anybody who had lived long enough to see the 
aun corae up and vhocould talk had idea and certainly



any child going to school*
q , in other words, if be bad vhafc m  aight call orientation.
A« Yes.
Q, 10 whoa was this test Jpiwn?
A* It was given to th© sane group of children V. ~  v £ * 

before> the Negro and white high school denies *&>rtnom 
Rev Jersey and Southeastern Pennsylvania hi#i schools.

Q. And how did you divide them for this purpose?
A. Just by race at first, end I observed that the difference 

between the Negro and the white pupils on the culturally 
loaded Questions was smaller than the difference between, 
the Negro and the white children on the non-cultur&l quest! ns.

0. What you're saying, if I understand it, is that the more
culturally loaded the question was, the greeter the d-agree of 
overlap, the less the variation between the Negro and tdiite?

A. Exactly, is exactly opposite to vhat the hypothesis of
the sociologists would have you believe*

Q. Is there any way you could further check this study?
✓ .

A. No, I didn't have en opportunity.
q . d d  you divide your subjects at all into good or bad performers?
A« 50. I later divided them into hl£i end low socio-economic

groups.
Q. How did it came out?
A. She point I was testing there was, if the culture hypothesis 

foftp any opportunity to work at all, if it*s of any importance, 
certainly the subjects with the highest socio-economic status 
should show a certain ratio difference as compared with the



subjects of the lowest socio-economic status, So what I 
did was to talas 25 percent* the highest quarter * of the 
Negro pupils whoso socio-economic scores were the 
highest* and along with them* of course* went the white 
children who were matched with them* It was not the highest 

quarter of whites* it was simply the highest 25 percent 
of Negroes* plus the whites who had been permanently matched 
with them. And Z compared their performance with the lowest 
25 percent of Negroes and the white subjects tho had been matched 
with them. So I have new two groups* I call this one the 
high socio-economic group and this one the low socio-economic 
group.

And I found this: that there was practically no difference. 
The differences between the whites and the Negroes lathe low 
socio-economic group was practically zero; the significance 
was very low. But when I compared the Negroes and whites 
of the higher socio-economic group* I got tremendously big 
differences* statistically significant* which was exactly 
opposite to what the culture hypothesis said* exactly opposite.

Q. In other words* the higher the social condition of the Negro 
involved* the greater the disparity between the groups?

A, Yes* The greater the opportunity for socio-economic 
expression ~

Q. And this is In addition to the fact that the' more culturally 
loaded the questions on the test itself* the greater the 
disparity?



320
A. Yes,
Q. Well, la terns of a total conclusion, do you feel as a result

that the culture hypothesis still has any validity to It?
A* Writ* X can say without ary qualification* There Is 

absolutely no evidence anywhere from anybody that the cultural 
hypothesis has any validity.

Q» In other words —  Well, there oust he statements by sosnbody.
A. Oh, 1 said evidence.

# I*o sorry.
A, And I don’t m m  evidence in the legal sense, I mean factual 

evidence.
Or* Test evidence?
A* Yes • Scores« numbers •
Q, There la no study that shows It?
A. Hone*

• And you feel that your study hast disproved It?
A. Let's put It thi« ways All of the studies that are extant 

show exactly the opposite. All of the studies.
Q. Of your studies?
A. My study too. Show exactly the oppo-iite.
Q. In other words, your study Is consistent with all other and 

earlier studies?
A* Yes*
Q, And as far as your professional knowledge goes, there arc

no actual test results to the contrary?



A. Exactly*
q, m  thlai Hare you published this material anywhere?

Save you published the results of these studies?
A* I have*
Q,. in what publications?
A* The first was the micro-card that 1 discussed vith you, and that 

study was then re-written and published in MAHHMD QUARTERLY, 
the exact volume and pages X don't know, but it was published 
in MANKIND QHAJRTERiar* The result of the culture non-verbal 
questions was published in THE JOURNAL OF APPLIED PSYCHOLOGY* 
The study of the big* and low soalo-econanic groups was 
published in the JOURNAL 00? ABH05WAL AHD SOCIAL PSYGHCEUX3Y.

How, there have been subsequent papers in which I have 
expanded and defended this*

in
Q. Has tHta ever been reported otyeny of the magazines?

Has your study aver been reported on that you know of? Have 
you ever suraaarised it for any magazine?

A* U. 8. HEWS AHD WORK) REPOST*
' 'Vr#Q. ‘When was that?

A* That was in 1956.
Q* I show you, Dr- McQurk, a 2erox reprint of pages 92 through 

96 of H. S* HEWS & WOOD REPORT far the week of September 21, 
1956, entitled "Psych logical Tests —  A Scientistfe Report on 
Race Differences," and aak if this is what you have just 
referred to?

A* Yes, this is the study*



L

MR. uxmtjxD: YOur Honor, Z offer la evidence Dr.
HsQurk's report on the studies to which be has Just 
testified.

1HE CCURT? let It be received In evidence and marked.
(Seas received la evidence and marked as Intervener's Exhibit Ho. 9)
Q. Woe any reply made to your articles?
A. Tothifl article, yes.
Q. a m  you ever written a rebuttal?
A. Ho, Z was forbidden to.
Q. By wham?
A. By the college at which I was teaching.
Q. For what reason?
A. Z don't really know. *the reason given was that they didn't 

want to get into controversial Issues*
Q« Well, if what you have told us Is correct, Dr. McGurk, If 

all of the studies and all of the tests that have been made 
show the asm  conclusion, could it hardly be a controversial 
issue?

A* Well, Z didn't feel it was controversial either, but college 
administrators have different ideas, I suppose.

Q- In any event, you did not publish a rebuttal, at the specific 
request of your university?

A* Yes, because certain organisations had visited them In an 
attempt to have me discharged.

Q* Have you ever written for HARVARD HWGATIOHAL REVIEW"?
A* I wrote an article to the HARVARD EDOCAnOHAL REVIEW In

550



answer to one they published, How, incidentally, it digit
be Interesting for the record that sqt suspension from 
publication lasted two years*. After tvp years the university 
lifted ay ban*

Q« Has this ever happened to any other professors that you know
of?

A* Specifically, of people whom X know, just one* And this is 
oisply his own word of south oonvoroation.

Q,. I won't ash for It then. In any event, after the two years 
you were allowed to write again?

A» Yes.
Q. And did you at that tide respond to an article 

in the HARVARD SDUCATIOKAL REVIEW?
A. I did.
Q. VJhat was the nature of that?
A* Two aen at Harvard, one an undergraduate by the name of 

Seraerefch, and a person by the naae of McCord, sociologist, 
wrote an article assailing ay findings on certain points, 
which I answered point' by .point in aa article entitled 
’‘Bogro vs* "White Intelligence? - An Answer?

Q. X show you a Seim reprint of pages 5t through 62, Volurao 
Kdx, HO. 1, of the HARVARD EDUCATIOHAL REVIEW, Winger, 1959# 
entitled M,Hegro vs* White Intelligence * - An Answer, 
by Frank C. J. McQurk, and 1 ask you If this is the article 
to which you have just referred?

A* It is*

351



?>2
MR* Lmmmt I offer in evidence at tills time tha article 

just identified by the witness.
TBE COTSj let it be received in evidence and Marked as

an e;iiibit.
(Sane received in evidence and Barked as Intervener^ Exhibit So, 10) 
Q. What does this leave you with, Dr MeOurk, as an explanation of

Use differences in learning patterns and aptitudes milch vs 
have been considering in this case?
To the extent that these psychological teats are predictors 
of school achleveoeat'—
Are they?
And they are, but not perfect ones, —  It leaves simply thlat 
Ihat it should not be expected that white and Negro children 
should achieve, on the whole —  it should not be expected that 
they should achieve the same amount of achievement in school, 
that there will be a difference in achlevahtlity in school 
subjects.
Bo you think this difference is educationally significant, 
Doctor?

A, It would be a guess now, and it would be inferred from wj other 
data, and the evidence, and what I see is that it is a big 
difference* quite a big difference*

Q# Would it suggest to you that a difference in rate of teaching 
would be of advantage between the two groups?

A, Yes, for the sane reason that it*s always an advantage when 
you have slower learning people,



333
Q. Would It suggest to you different an̂ Jhaais on various pasts 

of the curriculum?
A. Yes, 1 Uliak It would.
Q* Would it suggest to you possibly different treatment in the 

touching of seme of these subjects?
A. Yes. Those are all things which one could infer out of 

the factual knowledge.
Q. And vould it suggest to you that for the waxiiaum and best 

education of the children of each of these groups that the 
type of education that they should be given should be 
different?

A. Yea, to the extent that we have this difference in educability.
It vould aem  more efficient on the whole —

Q- —  Assuming that you vented to match the educability of each 
of these groups.

A. It would be more efficient on the vholc to separate and teach 
them by their educability groups.

Q* Tell me one lost thing, from your studies* If we «ro tb s*> :- * 4
intermix white and I'fegro children, have your studies indicated 
whether this will raise the so-called cultural level of the Negro 
children?

A# No, there is no evidence at all that it will.
Q« From the extent of your studies, would you say actually that 

the groups will get a better education?
A. No, I have no evidence to say that.
Q. Thank you very much, Doctor.



THE COURT? Any questions by the defendants?
HR. CANNAEAs We have none,. Your Honor,
THE COURT'. Any cross examination, Mr* Bell?
MR. BELLt Ho. We m o w  to strike all of the testimony 

of Dr, Motak on the same basis, that the sole issue in this 
case is whether or not the schools are segregated. The 
testimony that lie has offered is not relevant on this point, 
and we move it be stricken.

THE OTSTi I Overrule the motion and overrule the 
objection.

MR. CANADA i On behalf of the defendants, >r© would IJLftaa 
to adopt the testimony of Br. McQurk.,

THE COURT? Very well, let the record so show that you 
adopt it.

You may step down, Doctor*
(Witness excused)

ER. ERNEST YAH DEN HAAS, called as a witness and having been duly 
sworn, testified as follows?

DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. ISONAHDi As the witness has a number of papers with him 

I wonder if we need a short recess for him to 
THE WITNESS? I have them in order.

BY MR. LEONARD?

Q. Would you please state your name and present employment?
A. I am IS?* Ernest Van Dun Haag, Adjunct Professor, New York



tftiiveraity, and lecturer In the new School of Social Research, 
Hew York.

Q# What are you a lecturer In ?
A* Sociology and. Psychology and —
Q« Is that both undergraduate and graduate, or which?
A. Both. And also a psychoanalyst In private practice.
Q. Have you lectured at any other universities?
A* Yes, I have lectured at Yale, Harvard, Columbia, Princeton. 
Q* Have you been designated to give the Freud Memorial Lecture 

this year?
A. Yes, I have.

Would you tell u© something about that?
It’s one reason why I’m somewhat In a hurfcy to go back to Hew 
York, because X have to give it at the end of thl» week, 
it is regarded as a very high, honor for people in my profession 
Where have you studied?
I studied in Europe and Florence, Italyj in Maples; and in
Paris. I received —
Have you taken any degrees in this country?
Yes. I received a Master of Art at the State University of 
Ohio, and a PHD at Mew York University.
What was the doctorate in?

A, My doctorate was in economics.
Q. Are you a member of any professional organisations?
A. Yes , I am a Fellow of the American Sociological Associationj 

the Royal Economic Society; a member of the New York Academy



of Sciencesj and a number of other things.
Q« Have you published any laaterial in your field* Doctor?

■*■ ' J, '*,?.? ' , , ’ r' v " >• ' •' . • •- ..
A Veil* I published three books end about 20 to 30 articles* 

and a number of chapters in book* edited by other persons*
I hope you don't ttanfc me to quote them all.

Q» Ho* fhmfe you.
Did you write a book in 1956 entitled EDCATIOH AS AH 

XJCDOSm?
A* Yes* sir,
Q, In 1957* THE FABRIC OF SOCIETY?
A. Yea* sir.
Q* And in MASfe OOIfflURE in 1957> “PsychoancOysis and Its Discontents"?
A. Yes, I wrote that article* but not in HASS CUIffUKE. That came 

cut in a book called IVKSGJtifA&BlS, SCIEKTOTC HETHOD AHD
ranosom.

MR, ZJBGBftE&t At this time* Your Honor, I offer in evidence 
a ttammey of the qualifications of the vltoee*, vhioU the 
witness has just testified to*

® S  COURT* Let it be received in evidence,
(Satae received in evidence and Misted as Intervener's E*MbIt HO. 11)
Q* Tell me something about your area of study, in term* of 

social and psychological groups.
A. 1 m  basically interested in the individual in the relation to 

his group or his various group memfrevahlpe* Seaaettes that's 
called social dynamics,

Q* I vender if you would just explain that to us a little further.



Social dynamics. Is that a branch of ̂ psychology or 
sociology or which?

A. It *» a branch of both, sort of overlaps What I am Interested 
In is the individual personality as It is formed by the 
groups of which the individual is or becomes a member,

Q. Ton Hem the effect of the group on the Individual?
A. Right.
Q, As veil as the individual on the group?
A. Right.
q 8 When you say the "effect" on the Individual, arc you referring 

to physical effects, mental effects?
A. Psychological effects. Hy Interest is in the way the

Individual forms an Image of himself, forms his own identity 
by reflecting the attitude of the group toward him/û a engaging
in relationships with various groups.

Q. Tell me, What is the effect of this? You say, hov he forms 
these things. What difference tea it make to the individual? 

A. W011, the individual becomes conscious of himself, of his own 
abilities, capacities of reception or rejection of the approval,
which has an encouraging effect, or disapproval), which has a
discouraging effect, of other peoplej and this consciousness 
is what ultimately helps him to form his own character and his 
own identity, and to motivate him one way or the other. 

q . Does this effect his ability to study, for example?
A. Yes, among other things it does. It affects his whole



personality and* certainly, it* '*>es affect his motivation to 
study and his ability to follow that motivation.
Does it have any relation to what we aiffrt call his 
osntal health?
1 say h*R mental health, to a very large extant, depends
on his relationship to the group .
In other nerds, the individual1® mental health is tied in 
vith the relationship of his own identity with the group?
Ye&f sir, and may I recall that the word which we used to use 
for psychiatrist or psychoanalyst used to be called "alienist*
An alienist va© a person concerned with those who were alienated 
tPCK& society —  that is, from their group, Biat is,alienation, 
isolation fromi the group, inability to feel accepted by a 
group, was regarded as very os sense of insanity or psychopathology 
you aro aware of the fact that this separation into Negro and 
white groigxs in schools has been regarded by sorae as causing 
injury, have you not?
Ysst air, Iha aware of that*
Is that a part of this pattern you are talking about, the 
relationship of these two groups together?
Wb11; I tMrtfr what you* re referring to is the statement of the 
Suprem Court that modem authority has shown that that 
separation is harmful. Am I correct?
Well, all I want to know is whether the ham that occurs 
by lying together or separate Is a part of this field of 
social dynamics •
yes, air, it certainly is#



338

q . And tht*- injury or le^k of Injury is specifically the
concern of this study?

K  Yes, sir,
<U —  Xhis type of study.
A. 39to« ; v.; ■ ■;•'. V  \rf*% ■• "■::W •'. /' X ;+-"’
Q.. Let oe read to you* if X may; I*. Van Den Haag, a statement 

that vaa made by Professor Philip Khrlaad. —  By the way, 
who is Professor Khrland?

A. X think he is a professor of las at the University of Chicago. 
Q« Who is Eft*. Kenneth Clark?
A. Be is a very veil known social psychologist vho undertook and 

teamed to certain tests on Negro children which pftiycd a 
major role in various lawsuits that were ultimately consoli­
dated and cams to the Supreme Court as Broun vs. Board of 
Education, Be is also the organiser and major author, as 
veil as major supplier of evidence, for the appendix to the
brief of Brown that vas submitted to the Supreme Court, and

major
he is quoted by the Court, in effect, as this/Modern authority, 
among others, that would confirm the harm done.

Q* Do you know whether Eft*. Clark wrote a bock called PREJUDICE 
AHD YOCR CHUD?

A. Be did.
Q. Do you know whether Professor Kurland has an essay in that 

book?
A. Yhs. air, he does.



359
I wold like to read you th& following froa Professor 
gjurland’s essay la that book* and I quotes

nDr* Clara's study was utilised by the Supreme Court 
to provide a factual base on which to rest its conclusion that 
segregation of white and Btegro school children was a depri­
vation of the equal protection of the laws cocmandod by the 
Fourteenth Aasodmecfc."

Save you ever read that stateraent?
A* X have, sir*
Q.* You notice what he says in there, "to provide & factual base" 

on Dr. Clerk's study?
A. Yes* sir.
Q, let a© read you at the saasaent then whet was said thereafter 

— — whet was said by the Supreme Court on this point in the 
Brown Cases

:\Jhatever aay have been the extent o f psychological 

•morfledeo a t  the time o f P lessy  vSv Pbrguson, th is  finding 

i s  amply supported by modern, authority  * , . "

—  the finding being that?
"...that segregation is harmful to Hegro children.." ~
Stow? toll b», Doctor Vhn Den Haag, does Dr. Clark 

have any extant study which tends to show that segregation 
is ham ful to Hegro children?

A. Be has made such a study, and thie; will take — —  Shall I 
explain the study to you?



Qo If you would, please* Just tell os when it was and
what it was and how It v&s used*

A,. He hat; actually made tvo studies. One consisted of a study 
in which he submitted to sixteen Negro children —

Q. Hon many?

3bO

A* Sixteen. —  in South Carolina a masher, or rather , he 
shoved them one white and one Negro doll and asked them a 
masher of quea tions, some to identify which doll is Negro and 
which doll Is vhite, Then he vent on to ask other questions
meant to find out t 
!Th©n be asked the o 
doll would you like

heir preferences, which doll is nicer* 
ther questions of the same kind, “Which 
to play with?' And finally he asked;

"Which doll is like you?'
Not?', his 

children in 
doll && ”the

results were that ten out of the sixteen Negro 
his segregated southern school picked the white 
one that looks like you,: Fran this, he coo-

clu&sd —  and I quota —  "that these children hanre been 
definitely harmed In the development of their personality*"
Since he knew, of course, that the question before the 
Court was whether it was segregation that might have harmed
them, he added, n3$y opinion is that the fundamental effect of 
segregation is basic confusion in the individuals and their
concepts about themselves conflicting in their self images, 
fhla seems to be supported by the result of these sixteen
children-*

Now, the syntax Is a little bit obscure, but the essence,





But ftf. Van Dea Haag, oqg moment. Do you mean to toll me 
that the doll teat tfclofa vent before the Supreme Court vm 
baaed on the testimony of sixteen children* and only sixteen? 

A* Well, that was In the South Carolina case. Mr, Clark
testified in two more cases and undertook essentially the 
sane test with essentially the same result, also with 
extremely small groups of children, 30 or 15 and 20, I believe. 

Q, Did this agree with the larger studies, as he said it did?
A, Well., he said that it was consistent with the larger studies. 

And I thereupon looked up the larger study, which is published 
in a book called READHWS Iff SOCIAL PSYCSOLOGY, edited by

3*2

Hewooabo and Hartley. SoaNtMEfe to my surprise X found that, 
contrary to his testimony, this larger study seamed to 
lnilcatc- the very opposite of what his testimony tended to show.

Q<. What do you mean by "the opposite"?
®  A. flay X describe it?

In the larger study Br* Clark t e s t e d 13^ ffegro children 
in segregated schools in Arkansas, as it happens, and 119 ffegro 
children in unsegregsfced schools in Springfield, Massadussefcts.
They w e  about evenly divided by sex, about the earns age, 
and, by all indications, the same socio-economic status, 
althougi the matching can be dubious. Again he presented 
black and white dolls, and asked again which doll was nicer, 
which on© they vented to play with, which one "looks like you."

X am now quoting, if I may, his conclusions in this study, 
which he asserted was consistent with the on© submitted to the



5*5
Court.

Q- Bow, this
A, 1?4, plus

About 260

A. All right

Q.
A.

how many children?
ml' me

years earlier, and as Professor Clark baa himself asserted 
In a comaent he made, It was undertaken vitnout any thought 
of later Importance. That was long before the Brown vs. Board 
of education decision,
Was It the same test?
Exactly,

Q. In other words, It was the same dolls given under the same 
conditions exactly? Except around 260 children, instead 
Of 16, and both Horth end South at the same time?

A« Both segregated and unsegregated Hegro children.
Q. And what was his conclusion at that tine?
A. Veil, there are several. First, and I quotet

“She children In the northern mixed school situation 
do not differ from children in southern segregated schools 
In either their knowledge of racial differences or their 
racial identification, except,»," and I quote again, M,..the 
southern children In segregated schools are less pronounced 
in their preference for the white doll, compared to the 
northern unsegregated children's definite preference for this 
doll,"

Q* You*re saying that -—  I wonder if you would say that to me



•&30 southern Segro children preferred which?
la the southern segregated schools, they did prefer- the -white 
doll to a leaser extent that is, there were fewer of them 
cl'ittt poPNSfsflcred sud Hc-uv̂ Lfted with tas cioXl oiaû.*
was the ess© with Hegro vthildren In enaegregabed schools in the
ifcrtJu v ■ /■

In cr&hsr wox'cLsî you. suy tĥ îi tt*e fieg3
»-•<-» More of thsl this earHLie? 1hah ;

► identify t&188U1 e up

■fhb* In 1i&Ot| X BH

sain* Sc tin« n tab!

IfiSfS ti>.SC %dion ].tv. !,i

<H that lxXK3 ;Hie©

hools iitm 7 MfcV vfti

RH

•o children in the South 
m picked the Stegro doll

?3? Clark rs figures on this

isv Li!

Cihjt* C C d £ '.*ix04f\)m

children, Give we the 
snt in the non** segregated 

doll: whereas only 25 percent did so m

at, his cour£ X 1asy chuck* au o£i t.h'i ft xor W UM

nod 1c5ou?taoceptdd. testisaooy SPl d
lm "̂Vk<li4* IncA t n AIH'JO jchildren t0 ssj[s

(t he did not suDiuu.t to the Court •

a eantrolb&d study that Is* a

tame 1ts t  01.  ̂~n 1 sri in a ciiKtiil a

tut hi 
he oslled a 0 

with the same
cause, Actually, though, ho had au.cfc a controlled study 
available, hawing uadertauen it liimcelf ten years* before
&ia xx

jMy suspicion is that the i^aaoa he did not mitralt ttrib



controlled study is that It- would tare: shcr.ru that the conalusioas 
he draw Traci his study with the sixteen Negro children was 
contradicted by the controlled study* The controlled study 
showed rery dearly that when Negro children are in a mixed* 
noni'-segregateti situation* they tend to identify asore frequently 
and prefer more! frequently the white doll than they do when they 
are in an unmised* segregated situation —  that is* in 
Professor Clark’s terns* they have doubts about their self 
image and conflicting views about It*

(1* Veil* In our terminology* are you saying now that where they 
are intermixed they have less sense of racial identity than 
where they are separate?

A* fiat’s a correct statement. But let me add to the statement 
that according to Professor Cleric* it is that sense of 
■iolf-identi.fication that la the syaptoa of mental health) 
so if they lack or lose that in a mixed situation, then, 
according to Prof#ssor- Clark, they sre bring dona harm by the 
mixture*

Q* In other words.- the raeatal injury that the Supreme Court was 
talking about was this loss of racial Identity?

A, Yes, sir*
Q.» And that Profeasor Clark’s own study indicated that it was 

lost more In an intermixed school than in a separate 
school?

At Yes, sir.
THE C(XMTt Very well. We*21 tsias a recess. 

(Ten minute re-.xi.n5)



After Recess
(i®. leoward Gosmmmi)
Qa Just before the recess, De?„ Vaa Den Haag, we had boor? to 

this question of whether Dr. Clark's earlier study surtually 
shoved greateroental Injury lay loss of racial 1 denttflcation In 
the Intermixed school in the north, rather then In the separate 
school In the South.

A. Tea, sir. Hay 1 amend what you said a little bit? It Is not 
a question of loss, I think, of racial, identity so such as It 
is a question of conflict about itj so if it were possible for 
• Negro to lose his racial identity altogether- and assume 
a white identity, whatever else one would think about It, It 
would probably not lead to mental injury. The trouble is 
there Is a tendency to lose the positive identification, but 
not to replace it, so that he remains with a negative attitude 
toward his own group and yet without being able to enter or 
fully accept, not to speak of being accepted as a group, in 
this case the white group. It is a conflict that makes for 
mental injury.

Q» Well, you're saying then that in the Northern school this 
ambivalence, this divided loyalty type of situation existed 
more than it did in the South?

A © In fact, I think the conflict usually increases the more the 
contact la, and particularly in a school situation. And there 
are various reasons for that. To put It very simply, In a 
school situation, I think the IJegro child that goes to school 
with white children naturally resents the fact that the



ackieveo@nt of the white child Is likely te be higher, arid
2*7

that th® resentment certainly cm the one hark! again reinforces 
the wish to dekLdaotlfy with the Wtegro group end, on the 
other hand, increase a feeling of Inferiority and hostility
to the white group ,

Q. Have any sorts of these doll tests of Dr* Clark been made 

here In Jackson or the Mississippi area?
A* There has recently been wade a test by Professor James Gregor.
Q« Wot by Dr* Clark?
A* Wot by Dr. Clark, as far as I know.
Q, Has the same type of test ever boon racde?
A* Gregor intentionally, m  far as I understand his paper, which 

has not yet been published, intentionally used exactly the same 
technique, the sane dolls, and the same questions that Clark 
had used, and he undertook tests with — * let ms see —  8? white 
children and 92 Hegro children in Jackson. Mississippi.

Qo Were these children of school ago?
A* Yes. I can give you the age. Excuse (Examthŝ i papers)

He has the age somewhere ---
Q. Well, can you approximate the age for me?
A. X think about seven to nine. Age seven to nine.
Q« Children who era about seven to nine*
A. Yes.
Q. And here in Jackson?
A* That *s right.
Q. And a total of how many? About 170?



That** right*
When was that study made?
Quite recently* There Is no date on the paper 1 have before ms 
butt I understand it was made a few months ago,
What la the test result?
Well, he found basically the same results Clark found* only 
more so. He found that these vere Negro children tested In 
segregated schools? and he found that In these schools the 
percentage of children that Identified with the Negro doll —  

that is, showed what he calls signs of mental health —  was 
even higher than the ones that Clark had found In segregated 
schools.
In other segregated schools?
Yes.
Was it therefore higher than the one he had found In an inter- 
missel school?
Much higher, yes*
In other words, mare Uagro children in Jackson, Mississippi* 
correctly identified themselves with the Negro doll than 
identified themselves with the white doll?
That's right. I can give you the comparative figures.
The children that identified themselves correctly with the 
Negro doll In Jackson, Mississippi, were, of the total number, 
depending cm the question, 59, 60, and 59 percent.
Do you have any of the percentages of Dr. Clark's study?
— * Just one more percentage I want to give on the Jackson



study* 95 percent of the Negro children in the segregated 
schools of Jackson correctly said, whan ... ....V- ■«• "Give me the 
doll that looks like you,” correctly designated the dark 
Negro doll.

Q« 95 percent?
A» 95 percent.
Q* How does that compare to Clerk*s prior results?
A. Clark*# own figures for segregated schools are---
Q* Give m  the figure that Clark gave to the Supreae Court in 

the study vhiah he submitted to the Supreme Court* Stow many 
Negro children there identified themselves?

A* Six out of sixteen identified with, the Negro doll? ten with 
the white doll. To figure that out in percentages —

d* In other words, only shout a third of the Negro children in 
Clark*s study at that time Identified themselves with the 
Negro doll? two-thirds Identified themselves with the white 
doll?

A. Shat1# correct o
Qc And this is the report that was submitted to the Supreme 

Court?
A. Right*
Q* In Jackson, Mississippi, 95 percent of the Negro children 

identified themselves with the Negro doll?
A. That*3 righto
Q. And only 5 percent — . Did the 5 percent clearly identify with

^ 9

the white doll, or are they confused between the two?



590
A.

Q*

A

It*s not entirely clear frcm Dr. Oregon**b report. Just 
that they choose the whit© doll.
What, would your conclusion be from this in terras of mental 
healthy as shown by the Jacke-on study?
X do think that although the teohnigue seetmi to be not 
altogether free from errors in general, the doll test that 
originated with Clark, I do think that it does indicate 
©onething about mental health, and again, what it indicates 
seeaas to me shat you would really expect. I can*t understand
why f̂ "1 oy&p eithei» «af (1 ATiexpect*
that when ffegre ahlldP8£* fffs fAQ ;
they tend to bo confused g»IAiM,V
When they @6 to school only vitl
oonfueion does not occurs Moreover, their ideal., their ego, 
ideal co? ego iinags * oonsetimes ther P’O to school witti Itegro 
children will, of course, he th'- Msgro child that ssost appeals 
to theaj Whereas, 'when they go to school in a mired situation, 
they will form uix<sd ideals, sa it were./conflicting ideel to 
which they will then feel usable tc live up. So in tw b b  
of mental health, I shall, put it very simply sad say that the 
greater the olxtur® and the earlier, the worse probably the 
effect on the mental health of those that are being mimed.

Q« Did Dr. Clark ever use any figure coloring tests, as veil ea 
doll, teste?

A. Not that 1 know of*
Q,* Has he ever done any other typo of test besides the doll test.



351
In this same field?

A* I*» sure he has, but I*a net —  I don’t know them
ft. You don’t kmu of any results of thm?
A. Mo X cry call your attention to the fact that I

published the things I haw Just testified to* urd I got 
reaction fro® Professor Clerk to that, yfcloh I think for 
the sake of completeness should be motioned*

Q. Nh&t is that?
A« Well, in his book, PKE.TUDICE AND YWR CHUD, Professor Clark 

on page 45 has a paragraph that refers to the tests 
I haw just mentioned, the tent* on these 30 1 children, includlg 
oowtrol tests.

ft, Hr Van Dan Haag, I yonder If you will look ect pegs first 
and tall las vhat was referred tothere about the coloring 
teat, let m  read to you the paragreph I haw in mind.

"Sow do Northern Nsgro children differ from Southern.
Negro children in this respect? Nearly 80 percent of the 
Southern ohiMrer* colored their preferenoeE brown, whereas 
only 36 percent of the Northern children did, Furthermore, 
osrer 20 percent of the Northern ( M H m  colored their 
profte.r9n.ce3 in a htssrre color, while only 5 percent of tfco 
Southern children did, A record of spontaneous remarks of 
the children shoved that 8a percent of the Southern children 
spoke as they worked, but only 20 percent of the Northern 
children did*"

.Now, Is that coloring the aetaa as the doll t.*st?



352
A. la ecsenno. It As & slightly different technique, but it Is 

the interpretive theory, Jind t*h&i he founds as you have
just read, is oiks© more that In the South where the children 
tend tc be segregated* they easily identity with their own 
group, a*>d in tb& Berth vnor© they tv-./h to be nixed, they 
do not as freQaently and an easily Identify with their ova 
g?oq$>. In fact, t£ui last iioiet yon just iscntioried. that they

4 t% i*i 5 v*.qt*?wta0?i *>**»*-? f>#%'9vb a v *5 iKV* *"»+• v4intt »vw!tv v < * v « .  V M  JM A. t>4/A/4> A «'•._ ,*.w«V 2 VV<„V «**k l u  «.-»vwV*  ̂fa.? u U O A  J (.U  V

so confined by conflict about their identity that they don*t 
>5ure to choose > sis it wre, AM th«t is certainly not a vary 
©sod thing,

Q* Vhu,t do they have? An outline or flgus & Oi»iJLuiCii t#0 0'0iX0a»> ̂
A* 1 assisaa so. I aa not familial* with this particulet test* The 

doll test> they had an actual doll , which I have ceen* In the 
coloring test, X pro*sis&i it*a a cut-out of a human figure that 
they are supposed to color ,

Q.® In any event, the result© which X. h*»/fc juat read arc -ocŝ lataly 
constant to what you understand to have bfssn Clgrk*® first 
and laxijmt study with the dolls and with the special doll 
study test is&de bsa&xi la Jackson.?

A* Correct, with, the ddltian that ihu&h «r© not the 
results that l*s sulmifct®& to the Court,

Q* Bias th is  been been published since h is Troifc In Brown was 

suimitted to the Court? *&blg om I b*vo just read,
A, Actually,, the took in question frcea -which you .raad was 

published afterward, but I vcu34n*t be surprised If the



coloring test wasn’t undertaken earlier. Certainly, the doll 
test X refer to was undertaken ten years earlier*
In other words, he would have known of thit coloring test at

353

the sane time also before me evidence vent Dei ore thf» ftsupreme
Oourfc?

A, Certainly, yes.
Q Did you haw another portion frees FHEJODICE AND YOUE CHILD 

you wanted to refer to there?
A« Yen, After writing about these matters that we have just

discussed* there Is a paragraph on page k5 at the bottom which 
I suspect Indirectly refers to the publication of my analysis 
of hlft restsi and it Is as follows i

"Qti the surface those findings * t* —  that is, the findings 
with the 30C children —  \siigit suggest that Northern Negro 
children suffer mere personality damage from racial prejudice 
and crimination. than do Southern children* However, this
in.u@rpretabic8i woujlu. secsseem to be not only superficial but
incorrect* The apparent emotional stability of the Southern 
Negro child may be indicative only of the fact that through rigid 
racial segregation end isolation he has accepted as normal 
the fact of his inferior social status * Such, an acceptance Is 
not symptomatic of a healthy personality. The emotional turmoil 
remled by acme of the Northern children may be interpreted as 
an attempt on their part to assert acme positive aspect of 
themselves.”

I think this is faJLrly clear, but If I may —



Q* Yes, If you viH restate It.
A, What he, la effect̂  says* is that the tests may be Interpreted 

aa he himself did inteipret thorn originally end as I did 
interpret them folla/in̂  him, but that would be incorrect or 
superficial, and that actually the acceptance of a lower .status 
which he presumes 1a  the case In the South and the greater 
mental stability associated therewith sight be a symptom, of 
worse mental trouble than the instability that appear to occur 
in the north . HOW, —

Q. But that la merely a subjective —
A* That is M b new iuterpre tetlon, which I suspect is motivated 

by the fact that his old interpretation would have to lead him 
to advocate metre segregation^ whereas he wanted to advocate 
less.

!Ebe:re is ooc difficulty with this ism interjs^tatiouo 
What he has really dont> 1© to say that whatever the outcome of 
the teat, whether it asaru; that In mixed situations negro 
children prefer warn white dolls, or ihether it means that in 
white situations they do, or vice versa with Hegro dolls — - 
Whatever the outcome, he is new asserting., it always shows 
that segregation is bad, either because they choose more white 
dolls or because they choose fewer white dolls. In either case 
it shown that segregation is bad.

How, I do not think that this sort of experiment is 
usual* Th© purpose of an experiment is usually to either 
prove or disprove a hypothesis of the experiment* ,■?? ***

3fc*



e^qrorimat is so arrfingod that whatever the out coos, the
hypothesis is proved, It is not ncnwally considered to be an 
ô perlzaenfc act all> it proves merely the prejudice of the
experimenter^
But in any event, the resets thesjselves, the objective results 
have ahenm a greater, stronger racial identification in the 
South aa&mg children in separate schools then in the North 
in intermixed schools?
OSiey certainly do, and so did Professor Clark recognise 
originally, but he now lilaee to take that- beck for reasons 
that I don*t know.
Doctor, are you faailiar with the testimony of £s% Be&field 
whioh was put in evidence in Briggs vs. Elliott, one of the 
component cases in Brown against Board of Education?
Briggs — '?
X can read you the following excerpt fro© the decision of the 
Court in Sfcell against S&vannsh-Qmthaei County Board of 
Education., in the Savannah Division of tbs Southern District 
of Georgias

Br. Kedfield testified at Page 160 of the Briggs v,
Elliott record as fellows?

nTh0  conclusion then to which I oosae is different in 
intellectual capacity or in ability to leera have not been 
shown to exist as between Negroes arid whites, and; further,



th at the re su lts  mice I t  w ry  probable th at I f  such 

d ifferen ces are la te r  shown to  e x is t  they w ill not prove

to be aignificent for any educational policy or practice »*
Do you recall tills teatiaony?

A« Yes,- sir*
la it constant —  Ib it in agreomnt with what you know the 
facts to be as indicated by all of the existing tests?

Av Well* it*a a little ©Quivooaa.*, If it refers to test results* 
then it*s nimply obviously wrong* The test results that 
WQ how st» far mx entirely clear * If I taay read to you fjwjot 
e study called ^Action Patterns In School D&eegregafc ion.w 
l^hlishcd by Frefecuor Wey, Professor of Education at the 
University of Miami. This study* incidentally* is intended 
to help schools to desegregate. It certainly ie not written 
toy a man who ie in favor of aegpegation. On pegs 215 of that 
stutiyj he describee the differences as found by tests* 
also testified to by a saaafcer' of superintendents:

’'ihere are sons top Ifegro studentssees© redlOdWt 
ones* and some Quite retarded. This is also true of white 
children. However*, the proportion of slow learners 1st 
greater among the itegroos. Difference? are not m  apparent 
in klndarsarten end first grade as in the upper1 grades and 
high schools,"

And then he indicates a niaaber of schools and tests where 
&8 n&tob had been shown. Sow* in this Interpretation.* if 
Fpofbmov Hadfteld meant that in terns of test results Jfegroos

356



equaled whites* certainly* the ^rjemlLy accepted and owso* and 
eves* ccnfirraed results —  ccKifteiaed even by people î to 
•-. . !;7 audit mm :ln :\ttvar of In Ifew York as uells*;
an^bere else, the results are that Hegross* learning ability

i.
’ SMB!1 ft f <» •*?V“ *? (C A>Mf!l| Kbi Mini Mfei
iroversry* find that 1Is why I s»
1 Bedfisld aaaat — is whe'ltfcsr

due to avoidable ca* changeable «nviromientftl facte®** such as 
opporfcmity, eultair&l stlroilsttoE, quality of the schools, 
op tfcether It la du& to wbafc w© way call gentle inherent fartc 

Iff opinion on genetic factors is not* 1 think- worth 
lotting, bscsuso I*a not a geneticist. Bit I do want to&ake 
a logical vwKtks it X my, and I used to teach logloj nad 
that la this* If we assume that In places * at isaet. the
cultural nyjpcjrfcunity of Jfsgroea, Wftgpo children, tfesil hesna

§a&nt end so on, are such m  ti
j which I think in iasny czt&eo X# a »>3Ps?fto ticy, vnten i tntatc xn M a y  rants u  a <kbvkii wupuptiitfij 

it would not follow that there nay not also be an inherent 
genetic facto? *—  That is* it could veil be that part of the 
below^iiita^ihio^nsaent is to be ct&rifrtted to cultural jaatters 

<1> Mtore you in court yosterd’jy, BostdBp?
A* Ho* I vbjss not; ,
Q* X3r« Cteswett testified yastorday that acŵ ording to the studios 
• aad tests fee test* of and had jovjU/ <od, oppWiAfcaaU Ijf 75 percent 

of the difference between Hegpo and white test differences vac; 
of genetic origin and 27 percent, as shown by the twin studios



353

and others, at the most should be attributed to 
smdjonraerit* Be that approximately vhat you are referring 
to aow, that there in a contoi nation of these two facrtcamt 
Well; there is a combination* I m  not oure about the 
numerical proportions, not hearing undertaken any teste 
myself end not being altogether familiar with Professor 
Gterrett*c tests »

What I a z m t to say is very simply thlac You take a person 
to a dark room sad he cannot see in thi« room, You? norml
conclusion le to say scathing, obviously, the room
is d&rkj he cannot see.5’ But if you are a scientist, you would 
aloe \m xt to take him 1 flto a United room and see if he 
could oes there, because the reason for his not seeing in 
the dark room m y  be the dasfcness and may also be that he Is
blind, <xr ttb least shortsighted* And so in the Kegro case* 
it amgr be that the low aohisveomt is In part due to the lack 
of cultural opportunity, bid; it may also be that their capacity 
is inferior, as Professor Garrett has by his test found.
Bid you hear* Be* McGurl th is isorniQg? ~~-~

I did heasr part of it, yes*
— That he had made such a test, and had taken, the ones with 
the equal cultural availability?
Well, I heard him testify, and it st-undsd to me quite 
convincJ.Qgj but I want to mention that the usual objection 
against this is that lt*s extremely hand to standardize
cultural opportunity and thus make the test culture-free*
What you*re saying is that there is no possible way of



measuring?
I iflouldn®t cay th£.r*e in no possible- way ox î -asuringo I would 
say that one would have to see, In Uis testic»iiy you have 
Just nuenttC'-’V'd vhc itfest* the cultiuvxl opiXs*tualtles were 
really IDO percent ntaixiar&ixecL If tlaey are, tho teat is 
psxltectly velldj and If they are not, the test is not.
Hov can you possibly aa&sutft all the cultural opportuo.lt lea ?
I think you he?® a problem there .
Wall, you eouldn*t, since the ottltumal opportunity vould be 
ths total history o « person’a life, day by day and hour 
by hour.. Khab ytx:*re spying ts that t-'iew it go pa xiLility 
of treking « oeâ arlsoa*
Mo, I vmtto *t go so ts#* You er® <juite right, of court*?} in 
the exact mem* vhst you say vould bo correct. But if we 
take a group of dblldî n, we usually assume that once they 
have bee n reasonably jn&tohod and tho factors are eoatitBed, 
that other fact caw tend to compensate for each other. If 
ve accept what wo say literallŷ  then \#a couldn? t taio? any 
test of anything «w,
Are you feed,liar with the aims Seal* that Dr* JfcOurk used?
I*ve heard of it, but I*a not familiar with lt«
Have you over used it?
MO, sir3
Do you know of any scale that gives a better result?
Mo, air, I don*t, I do not myself do any testing. =
'B-ien as far as she Sims Seals is coocarnad, as far as this



A- • -v

■ .

A.

a*

can be equated; you are in efppseneofc then with Dp* McOuask1* 
ootosluaiott# that m  fast'm equation. can be aeeaured, the 
cultural part of It does not mk» a duge?
Logically* certainly As far as it e$s. be Measured, yea* 
’Hherfcher he has saeasiurod it or not-. X an net able to say*
Hoe, In the statejrmt̂  which hes?e been id® since the decision 
of the Suppose Court in the Bswn ease, Doctor Van Den Bass# 
are yen awce of any steteaeats that have been made 
as to ’Jfcsether os* net segregation Injury bod been shove in 
that case by the evidence? And X*si talking not? about ctate- 
neats by the person who put in the evidence«
My fueling ia that a water of pesr̂ oca actually «W® er less 
coni&csod that that was not quite the eaaii but X do not h<we 
the quotations with a*u 
Was Klinebcr̂  cess of those?
Yes, air* ©vaxo were fchirfcy-two social scientists \fa& signed 
the appendix, and I believe Klirasbere wi: ooe of them, and 
so, of course, was Clark*
Was Kllnobexg one c.f th« authors of the atatessent?
Ibs* sir.
X read you from m  Antidlacr3 n&nafcion League publication, 
entitled *̂ be Bole of Social Selan in Desegregation —
A SpqjoaiiSa*n a it it aunt by Kline berg and ask if this is 
the sfcataHsot to which you oak* m f s m m m

:Vo were vaxy careful in the social saleaoe statcaaent
net to i r  that segregation caused all these troubles,



5 6 1

because vo <314 act have tbo date feat stooged fe&t children 
brought up In eegregsted schools war© vary different i*c*s 
those brought up in non --segregated schools* We hod to put 
da? conclusion in terns of the overall effort of dlscri&inatioou ” 
yell., if I may oaaBBflt* if he h«d done- that, then the testliaony 
w u M  have h&m Irrelevant to fee oasa* As a matter of feet* 
aa I quoted you before, Professor tlajtfc very clearly stated that 
vianfe he festtfted to, the oAsnage that he felt he found vac due 
fOndtaasnially to -jiegraQhtion*
Aad h*as Hr. Cletlc made a at atcMBt ae to whether in hie 
presentation to fee Supreme Court he had mentioned whether 
aegre^tioci causes injury?
1 think he has, but a@ala I dou*t have it with me* 
list me read you from fee book which you have previously 
m£®vm& to* HJOTDICE AND YOBR GBm>P written by Ur. SMBivtti 
Clerk, the frost pejse

“When the lawyer* of the BAACP In their vndenrtan&eblA seel 
to develop fee strongest possible oase. *snkod fee social scientists 
Whether- it vm possible to present evidence shewing that public 
achsol segregation in Itself dragged pcrsomlitS|B of Negro

Mi that the available studies 
variable Crocs fee total social 
.0 oriTsimtion sod «ecre^tion#1 

veiy reasonable statement if t?»t had been the

children* jIt wfca pointed out to
had not so far isolated <a single
cqraple;d.ty of racial pro.judio&s

Jjft OFS St
tootiEKXx," feet was given, but, as 1 pointed out, Professorthe vacpiable qsjled01flMc*s teatisioay was ̂ tually thftva«gr*®«fcihu caused fee damage



562
that he saw. Of course, the Court, may I point out, accepted 
* M m statement because it assarted that Modern authority —  

meaning Professor Clark and the other social scientists —  
had shown that segregation causes ham. So the Court inter­
preted, apparently, the testimony by Clark and others differently 
than they —

q * -—  Than they themselves have since interpreted?
A, Yes, sir.
Q,e Are you familiar vith the name of Dr.Kelly, Alfred Kelly? 
A. Yes. He is a psychologist, but I don’t remember where he 

teaches now*
Q* Do you recall that there were hearings before the United Ctates 

Senate in which Kelly testified as to his preparation of part
of the Brown case?

A* Yes, sir.
Q. And the factual statement. Let me read to you from the opinion 

I previously referred to in the Stall case, as follows t 
—  And I ask if this is the statement which you are now
referring to —-

"In the exhibit, hearing before a subcommittee of the 
Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, 87th 
Congress, 2nd Session, Pages 166 to 178, appears a speech 
made by Dr , Alfred H, Kelly of Wayne State University, in 
which he described in some detail how h© helped to present
the Brown case to the Supreme Court, n 

In part, he said, and I am quoting
from Dr* Kelly, not



from the opinioni
"it. is m% that vo were engaged In formulating lies. There 

was nothing <&b crude and naive as that. But we were using 
facts* emphasizing facta, bearing down on facta, sliding off 
of facts, quietly ignoring facts, and above all interpreting 
facts in a way to do as Thurgood Marshall said ve had to 
do to *gst by those boys down there,*"

Is that the ct&tement you were referring to?
That is the statement, and I think it is also correct,
3>* Van Den Haag, to leave Brown for the ament, would you tell 
m  in your own words, or in as lay language as possible, what 
is the meaning of this concept of self-identification of the 
individual which you have been referring to?
Every individual at some point or other must form an Image of 
himself, of what he means to others, of what he means to 
himself. This is what we call his sense of identity. He 
identifies the continuous disposition and emotions active in 
himself, u M  he distinguishes himself, sees himself, identifies 
himself as an individual distinguished from others and 
related sore to some and less to others. How, this occurs when 
the individual is in a group. When he is not in s group, 
and, particularly, when he is not In a group that tends to 
accept him and that he feels a certain community with,, when 
tfcffc is not the case, then there is going to be trouble.

let me refer to some extreme cases. Kingsly Davis , 
Professor of Sociology at the University of California in



Berkeley, observed two children in different circumstances
vho had been brought up in isolation until the 6th year 
in one case «od the 8th year in the other - In both cases 
these children could not speak, could not walk- could not 
control their evacuation,* were afraid of anyone, did not 
recognise other human beings as human beings and reacted to 
them as animals would do.

What that shows is that to beccms human, one has to be a 
member of a group Splt*# a physician, in an
experiment that also became quite famous, has shown that 
infants who are not allowed to have the minimal contact of 
even seeing other Infants and interacting with them, be it 
only visually, either died or came to suffer from a variety 
of physical ailments, and in any case become retarded, often 
in a non-reversible way

So membership In a group is essential for a human being to 
become human« Unless he is a member of & group, he is only 
potentially human, and unless he becomes a member of a group 
fairly early, this potentiality will be altogether defeated. 
How, when I say a member of a group, of course, I do not 
m m  a formal ssaberehip, with a membership card, but 
simply that ha hae to interact habitually with a number of 
persona that he recognises ca similar to himself.
How, does ho have control over this? In other words, may you 
identify yourself with any group you wish?



565
Ab Ho* you cannot, because of course the identification s&ist be 

mutual* and people haw always Identified themselves with 
groups who* In tho first place., look similar to them* A 
child does not Identify with, an adult; he Identifies with 
other children. A girl child identifies with other girl 
children. If that is not the case, if & boy child identifies 
with girl children, one of the possible results may be 
homosexuality, la short, children have to identify with —  
and usually do unless there is cook special circumstances —  
other children of about the same age, the ease group 
sexually, racially, in terms of sge* 

q , yell, tell me this* Does a single individual identify himself

Ao
Q«

A,
Q*
A,

with many groups, according to subject? Religious, professional, 
racial* national, family, and other?
Certainly» W b all are members of numerous grom?c»
Are you saying that if a person is a lawyer, for example, he 
identifies himself with other lawyers and reseats slurs cant, 
let us say, upon the legal profession?
I think that would be quite right?
Regardless of his personal opinion of Individuals in it?
I think that would be quite normal, but at the same tin® he 
also will identify with other group*?* again, religious — - that 
is, suppose he is Jewish and he Is in a Jewish house of worship, 
he isn*t identifying as a lawyer; he is going to identify as 
a Jew* When he is couxting a girl, he is identifying as a younS
man, ana so on



Q, What ere the factors which make for ide atif ication? In other 
words, what compels a poison to {associate himself vith « given 
gr sup t

A« X dou*t think it is usually a eiatter of eas^Mlsipa. It is a 
matter of selection uhen you can see the similarity in the 
others. And. I should point out that children tend to perceive 
that similarity at a very early age, most important thing
that Is perceived at the beginning is* of course., the visual 
aspect of the other person*

Q« What *s a visual aspect?
A* The way ho looks. And the moat important thing in the way he 

locks is usually the color of the skin*
Q« Bov about sax?
A. Well; that Is also quite importaatj not for vUsrj .̂̂ 17 

childron us important, I think* as the color of the skin 
It be cases more important as they grow up.

Q,. Well, do very small children identify themselves racially 
at an early age?

A*. leSi And let me, If I may, point to research that
has been dx na about this by Miry Goodman, Catherine Lendreth, 
and finally by Marion Radke.

Dr® Ooodaan found that this feeling of racial identity, 
identification, — X quote* 'aw&rcnaco of one's racial identity 
may be regnrdod as one facet ox what coh&OjLOu&ness of &8X.t

> three or four

366

which is gradually achieved during the first



j&r

years of life*'* and '’pĵ limlnary analysis" —— and this ims 
a study of a nur-aery school in. California —  " leads to the
belief shat these children ef apprgodmteiy 3 to #~2/s years 
wore in the pi*gl,q&* of beecodjag sware of r&ee differences*"

A study by Dp* CachePine Landrrth in Sac, Francisco 

called "foung Children̂  Responses to a Hot ere sod Inset 
$s®t Designed to Reveal Reactions to Persons of Different Skin 
Color̂ ! Xh&t study concluded, 'patterns of response to 
persons of different skin color ©re present as early as 
three years and become accentuated during the succeeding 
two years." s'

Dr. Radke in his study found that "white children In all 
the situations and at all age; (b&vmi to thirteen years In this 
case) expressed strung preference for their ova racial group* 
’This is particularly the case when, thair choices between fltegre 
and white chJLl&Ptix as friends ax*© on asa. Abstract op wish 
level." .4.

Q* Would it fee fair to say the auraaary of those studios, Doctor^

A.

is that the self - Went

early isl l i fe  before tl

f l m t by the t ibis the *

Shat see■a»S fa ll11, yea.

out that in this ttiore

Ac»rl«*a ■heaoca£ti€'* L* IX

eliaoei in the r*afc&P6 0!

school?
you wish. I say go on. and point

U. M At 1 H tWXi SJ
«rs&I3y cud has a purpose

IU UHSA.ll
Q~ What Is that purpose? Would you o.pl&lii that̂  pl©a.3<5?



A* yes* Well* X would t/O refer to

A

Arthur iCslth.- Kati,

r
:he Hovel Anthro­

pological Society sod of the British Association for the
Mvuncsinen
What does Dr* Keith say'

war lei retresents ©aour pranictori 
ishos t V* thoufc isolation wtupfi could have

The answerr.rvi JV4fi niJf'.V-

trioe ail 
legionary QXjpaa 
done nothing , How did she k 
to this qi^stlon yields a clue to the object of our search —  
the origin, of our prejudices* We era apt to think of seas* 
river a, isountaio chains , deserts, and impenetrable jungles m  
the h&rriex-s which kept evolving tribes and races apart. No 
doubt they have assisted to secure this object, but Nature did 
not trust th«ia* She established her real and most effective 
barriers in the human heart* These instinctive likes ant 
dislikes of ours, which X speak of as prejudices, have ccaae dawn
vO U0 dfuU Xi

the QVoiatXomjrj mmmogwsr ra*coa »
eons of tiisw to secure the separation of nan into penaanetit 
group® aod th?î to attain production of new and improved races

They are essential parts of 
taefains ̂ aployed throughout

of ffianklncu * *
■ ) obtain universe /j nsrenrii.!!-! yx

reckon toe price you
the racial birthright
flitt&lll SUCll &Q

A* iiftvw bv yl

&at ffotur
J6Q V>.

1 you roust also 
The pH.ce Is
on you. To 
itxdeb and



369

continents oust pool not only their national interests, but 
they amt also pool their bloods, ..."

It goes on, If ye m e  to do this "this universal 
derectalisation/ If It ever conns about certainly —  and 
I quote again —  "both head and heart will rise against it* 
Basra will well up within you an oveiwastaring antipathy to 
securing peace at such a price." ”... nature has implanted 
within you for her own needs —  the is®a?ovenient of Mankind 
through racial differentiation. Race prejudice. X believe, 
works far the ultimate good of Mankind and Bust be given 
a recognised place la all our efforts to obtain natural 
justice for the world."

And I may go on with a statement none recent, the 
statement of Sir Arthur Malth la now 25 years old. In 
1962 Profhssor Oar la ton 8. Coon, pest president of the 
Amrlcan Anthronolotd.cal Societv, states In him book, 
fit- O&Bmf OP BACKS*

"...Call It xenophobia, prejudice, or whatever, people 
do not ordinarily welcome masses of strangers in their midst, 
particularly If the strangers w> with women ««d children 
,friv3 settle down to star. Social mtwhan^gww arise auto- 
safcloally to tb** aewcoraess as fluvfo as

to i;Bep genetically separate* Vi»« happened
historically to Jews (who wanted to preserve their culture) 
nearly everywhere, and to Megroes in the Mew World. It has



happened recently to European® In India and Indonesia, and In 
Africa* it la happening vesy drsaaitlcally to Europeans* even 
as I wrote*

M»a» shove is the behavioral aspect of race relations, 
the genetic aspect operates in a comparable way* Genes that 
Tom as part of a cell nucleus possess an internal equilibrium, 
Just aa do the msnbere of social institutions. Genas in a 

are in equilibrium if the population is living & 
ha+M’hy life «s a corporate entity. Racial intermixture 
rqtfi upset the genetic as well as the social equilibrium of a 
group and so, naturally, introduced genes tend to disappear 
or to be reduced to a minute percentage.

How, if I may, I wish to refer to the mechanism by means 
of which this separation into groups occurs even when there Is 
a physical intermixture.

I'd to quote on this Professor George A. Lundberg, a 
former president of the American Sociological Association.
I quote because I think he expressed this as well as anyone 
oan. TMft is from an article that appeared in the Sumner
of 1958 in Momm AGEEi

" in every society man reset selectively to their fellow 
men, in the sense of seeking the association of seme and avoiding 
the association of others. Selective association Is 
ry*Gftnyfl*ir1,3y based on some observable differences between those 
whose association we meek and those whose association we 
avoid. The differences which are the basis of selective



m

association are of an indefinitely 1arge variety, of all 
degrees tef visibility and subtlety, and vastly different in 
social consequences. Sex, age, marital condition, religion, 
soci0--aooaomie status, color, size, shape, health, morals, 
birth., breeding, and b *0. —  the list of differences le 
endless and varied, but all the items have this in commons 
(l) they are observable} and (2) they are significant differ* 
cases to those she react selectively to people with the 
Characteristics in question* It is, therefore, wholly absurd 
to try to ignore, deny or talk out of existence these 
differences Just because we do not approve of some of their 
social results.1:

in a different article, the sane Professor Lundberg 
undertook an ©qpirie&l study In a high school population.
The study is called “Selective Association Among Ethnic 
Group* in a High. School Population. * This is published 
in the AMERICAS SOCIOLOGICAL REVIEW, Volume 17, So* 1 (1952). 
I quotes

Every ethnic group showed a preference for Its own 
mss&ers In each of the four relationships covered by the 
question*

M« .Eteoocentriffia or prejudice is not confined to the 
majority of the dominant group*

n*.,A certain amount of ethnocentricra is a noxml and
necessary Ingredient of all group life* It is the basic 
characteristic that differentiates one group from another



and thus Is fundaia&rital to social structure, Ethnoce atrism 
(discatLminstiQn, preju&Io©) is, therefore, not in itself 
necessarily to be regarded as a problem„" i'., - r r

And now, if 1 may, I vent to quote still aam further 
evidence on this*

5HS GOOFS' ; X believe this will be a very good place 
to tate our noon recess, so we'll recess until one-thirty* 
(Whereupon the court was recessed until It 3 0  P.M.)

After access
m l  i b m b p  oc& m m st

Q,.. Or* Tan Dsn Haag, before the noon recess, you were testifying 
about a number of studies by Sir Arthur Keith, Professor 
Carleton Coon, and Dr. Lun&bergj and in this connection, 
several of the authors used the word “prejudice. *

Vfcat is the meaning of “prejudice” in their sense?
A n Xho sense * particularly that Sir Arthur Keith uses the word, 

is not the sense in which we usually use it here* Bare we 
usually mean by ‘'prejudice " bad opinion, a hostile view you 
have of someone which is not justified.? l&ereas, What Sir 

y Arthur Keith has in mind is a selective preference for one's 
own group and a rejection of people who are not of one's own 
group —  a rejection that is not necessarily hostile, but 
simply in the sense of realizing that one does not or that 
they do not belong to the same group.



7 0

Q„ Is this, on a racial basis, what Is referred to ss
ittuoMstidnt

A. Yes, sir*

Q,* How, would it be fair to summarize these studies as saying
that this is essentially a biological thing, or Inate 
characteristic of every Individual?
That Is certainly altogether Sir Arthur Keith’s 
opinion* and also the opinion of Carleton Coon, both of 
whoa Indicate that it has very important biological 
function* but 1 would also say that It can be culturally 
reinforced or weakened with a variety of effects*
VS31, but if It*s a biological Mechanism flmdaraentally,
Dr. Van Den Haag, la it the sort of thing that would require a 
distinct and continuing effort of will to disregard or to 
overcome?
Yes, 2 do think so. And such an effort, though it can be 
made, never seems to be wholly successful*
Does this have any moral connotation?

A« Well, the motive for such an effort usually is morel, I think.
People will make such an effort if they feel that for 
ideological or morel reasons they ought to. lot me Make an
analogy.

Suppose you are with a person who Is crippled, or bears 
some sort of other stigma. I use the word aa the the aocio* 
legist Qottmn uses It and wrote a book about, on stigma.



Suppose you are with a person who has an obvious 
physical deftest, and you haw learned It would be cruel 
to make a person feel that he differs from others, so 
you might then make an effort of the will to try to ignore 
this defect and treat him as though he did not have the 
defect# Th? interesting thing, as pointed out, is that though 
you try and for the beat motives, you do not succeed. You are 
aware «3i the time that you have to continue to make the effort 
not to notice the difference, And vhat is more, the person 
in whose favor this effort is directed Is equally aware of 
the effort and vould Irish, according to the -writer, that you 
didn’t make Iti he vould wish that you simply admit to yourself 
and to him that there is this difference, and on that basis 
of belonging to different groups, establish a resoaable 
relationship. That is vhat Qottman maintains, and I would agree 
with him, that your attempt to deny to yourself the reality of 
your natural feeling is not only condemned to failure, but also 
makes your relationship to the person Involved vdry difficult.
In other words, axe you saying that the only healthy situation 
is one In which, you accept the difference and build in the basis 
of ltt
Yes, sir# In fact, if I may make a personal recollection, I 
remember years ago X met a woman who had written a book 
OdldERBLCHD, by which title she wished to indicate that a 
person ought uot to see each other’s color* and X recall a



very long discussion In which I tried to explain to her that 
people are not bam colorblind and do not become colorblind, 
they can only try to pretend that they are, and that that 
pretense is not a very healthful one.

Q. Ia It proper then to say that this group preference on any
basis, Including racial basis, does not arise necessarily from 
discreditable motives, but Is simply present in the individual?

A* It is present In every group. It is present, as I pointed out 
before, already In three year old children. And I might 
point out that the studies that I mentioned before were made 
on middle class children from so-called liberal homes,—  That 
is, from homes in which if they were conditioned at all, they 
were likely to be conditioned to ignore these differences,

Qe In this constant awareness of the difference where
a member of a different group Is present, Is It possible to 
eliminate in effect by having a group which is totally 
separate In itself? In other words, has a complete self- 
identity of its own Does the awareness in such a group drop 
as to its difference from outsiders?

A. I wouldn’t say the "awareness" except In the possibility 
that in a negative sense —  that is, the hostile element, 
the defensive element in that awareness may drop aa the 
group Is isolated from other groups; and the group’s ambitions, 
interests, what the psychologists call cathexis 
those would be directed inward to the group itself; but the



576

awareness of difference remains.
Veil, perhaps I can phrase this just slightly better, Dr.
Van Den Haag.

If a group is by itself, wholly with its own group members, 
does it develop its group conscelousness more in that area 
or when there are present a different group or in the presence 
of a different group? In other words, when does it tend to 
solidify in its own pattern?
I appreciate your effort, but I think the difference lies 
not in a matter of more or less, but what happens is that 
there will be a different group consciousness. In the 
case of separation, the group consciousness will be one in 
terms of pride, of belonging to the group; in the case of 
intermixture, they will remain group-conscious, but in a 
confused way. Because their ambitions would be directed toward 
the group of which they are not a member, they will often 
try to themselves pretend that they are, and the result 
will be confusion and conflict.
Have there any studies been made of Negro communities, for 
example?
Yes. I was about to quote one made by Moselle Hill, Professor
at the Universi ty of Chicago at the time, and published in a
Negro social science magazine called FHYLQK in the third
quarter of 1946. 1,113 study' oaUfid "A CoB®arative 3tufly 
of Race Attitudes in an All Negro Comnunity in Oklahoma,



came to the conclusion —  I quote:
"An individual residing in an all-Negro society will have 

a much higher regard for Negroes. He will be more egotarian 
in his attitudes toward them and thus more favorable in his 
expression towards his race. It appears safe to conclude that 
all Negro youths have a higher opinion of Negroes due to the 
absence of pressure from white man, combined with the 
essentially middleclass ideology."

There is another study by Allison Davis, also a psychologist 
at the University of Chicago, who notes that in an all-Negro 
environment, Negroes have a more favorable attitude toward their 
own race and themselves.

Q. Dr. Van Den Haag, taking groups as groups, are there any 
studies which are made to ascertain the effect of group 
contact, as such, the effect of one group upon another?

A. Well, we call this usually cultural contact, and have quite 
a numher of studies. I think the best thing may be to refer 
to one directly, which I have here. This is a study that has 
been made by Professor Bernhard Lander, who teaches at Hunter 
College in New York, under the title "Towards an Understanding 
of Juvenile Delinquency." The part that is relevant is as 
follows:

"The Negro delinquency rate increases from 8$ in areas 
in which the Negro population concentration is less than 10$ 
of the total population to 13$ and 14$ in tracts with 
10-29.9 and 30-49.9 Negro population percentage. However,



as the Negro population concentration increases beyond 50$, 
the Negro delinquency rate decreases to 7$ in areas with 90$ 
or more Negro population. Thus, in areas with the greatest 
Negro population proportion, the Negro delinquency rate is 
lowest. A similar pattern of delinquency frequency also 
characterizes the white group in relation to the porportion 
of Negroes*...As the Negro proportion of the 
total tract population increases to 50$, the 
delinquency rate correspondingly decreases. Thus, when 
other factors are held constant, delinquency rates .. are 
hipest in areas of maximum racial heterogeneity. ”

Let me give a comment, if you wish, on this, and 
put this very simply which Professor Lander points out.
The higier the degree of intermixture, the higher the 
delinquency rate of both the mixed groups. As the inter­
mixture decreases, let us say, more than 50$ Negroes or so, 
the delinquency rate decreases again, and when it cooes 
to be a very nearly homogenous group, 90$ Negro, then the 
delinquency rate goes down to normal levels.
Allow me to see if I understand that. Are you saying that 
the delinquency rate is virtually a function of the degree 
of overall contact between the two groups?
All other things being equal, yes.
All other things being equal, the more contact there is between 

the two, the higher the delinquency rate?



590
A. Pdght »
Q. And when there’s a small group at one end or the other, 

whether It’s a small group of whites or a small group of 
Negroes, below a certain point, then the delinquency 
rate will drop?

A, Yea, air,
Q. How, is that for lack of identification of a small unit as a 

group in the whole?
A. Yes, generally speaking. The pienoraenon 4avoired is called

H g ft • ■■■*'4 ' - r-'-v-' V/\,aocsiiia by sociologists, and by psychoanalysts "neurosis." 
They’re almost the semes one is social and one is an individual 
phenomenon. And what is a literal translation is that 
the Negro is ruling less and less. What occurs is 
people of different kinds, usually with different ideas, 
customs, and group nonas, come together. The norms that 
have bound each group and have helped to integrate each 
individual both within himself and with the group tend to 
become loose, because each group observes the members of 
the other behave sciaevhat differently. The result of 
is that people get a feeling of meaninglessness, valuelessness, 
rulessness —  call it what you wish -—  which leads them 
to feel that anything goes, as it were, with high delinquency 
rate.

Now, what I wish to stress is that delinquency rates
are not the point really, but they are larffly a symptom

been
of a psychological disorder that has/caused by this



591
constant group contact.

Q. Has any study been made In Baltimore on this?
A. This is the study I quoted, by Professor Lander. It was 

mode In Baltimore. And may I point out that 
Professor lander*s study has the virtue, ae other studies 
of the kind do not have, of having carefully investigated
whether other factors such as slum conditions and so on, 
educational levels, and so on, played a role. Having 
excluded all these by a number of technical devices, he
was forced to conclude that it is racial heterogeneity, 
racial heterogeneity alone, that causes the high 
delinquency rate.

Q.. Is this in essence an expression of the consciousness of
group differences which you were speaking of previously?
Well, I don’t know that I wait to use the word '’consciousness," 
but it is certainly an expression of, not necessarily conscious, 
feeling people have that their situation within the group 
Is no longer what it was. They tend to be tom in their 
loyalty between both groups, and being torn, the attempt to
force one's self sometimes to be what one is not, tends to 
express itself in hostility, of which delinquency is one
fexna.

Q. Has.Professor Ichheiser ever written on this stress factor in 
interrelations ?

A. Yes, sir. 1 think I have with me what he has written.



392
Bie article by Dr. Ichhsiser la called "Socio-psychological 
and Cultural Factors in Race Relations.” It appeared in 
the AMERICA!? JOURNAL OP SOCIOLOGY, In 1949-

Q. Who is Dr. Ichheiaer?
A. Professor of Sociology at the University of Chicago.

May I quote the relevant passage?
Q. Please do.
A. the negroes...” and he speak® of the case of

intermixture. —  "If the Negroes would refuse to identify 
themselves consciously with the Negroes as a subgroup, then 
they would develop a kind of collective neurosis, as do 
other minorities tool for the conscious *we* would in case 
of such an attitude be persistently in conflict with the 
unconscious 'we, * and this inner split would inevitably 
reflect itself in different pathological distortions of the 
Negro personality."

roiia Is why I wasn't quite willing to accept your 
expression of group consciousness.. Bie point of the matter 
Is that they may consciously try to identify with a group 
not their own, but their unconscious won't follow, and the 
result would lead to what he calls a "collective neurosis.”

Q. Has any study of group contact been made in Brazil that 
you know of, or of culture in Brazil?

A. Yes, and I think it is of some importance. This is the 
study to which you are referring —  I will give you the 
exact name of it in a moment. —  It is of seme importance



for this reason: that Brazil is usually regarded as 
a country where race mixture has taken place and has lead to 
the elimination of any form of race consciousness*

She study to which I want to refer is called "Racial 
Attitudes in Brazil," by Dr. Bailio WiHsms, and appeared 
in the AMERICAN JOORHAL OP SOCIOLOGY, in Vblutne 54, Number 5, 
19^9. And I quote fro© iti

* ..* Of 245 advertisers, 194 were interviewed..."
——  Advertising for employment. — — 
tt... about the reasons for their unfavorable 

attitude toward Negro servants. In this Interview, 46 were 
unable to give any clear answer, but they found their own atti­
tude ‘very natural.* 18 advertisers did not accept Negro 
servants because of presumed lack of cleanliness j JO thought 
black housemaids were always thieves* 14 alleged instability 
and lack of assiduity* and!2 said only that they were used to 
white servants and did not wish to engage colored ones.
Seven persons precluded Negroes because of the contact they 
would have with their young children. Uiere were a few 
other reasons, such as *race odor,* 'bad character,*
'laziness,' 'carelessness,' and other imperfections that were 
ascribed to Negro servants.”

The article continued:
‘’There are many situations in social life where 

whit© people refuse to be seen with Negroes. In such 
public places as hl^i-class hotels, restaurants, casinos,



fashionable clubs and dances, Negroes are not desired, and 
there are few whites who dare to introduce Negro friends 
or relatives into such places. Thus, discrimination was 
strongly resented by a&ddieclass Negroes. On the other 
hand, those Negroes complained bitterly of the contemptuous 
attitudes that middleclass mulattoes assumed toward them,"

What I am trying to point out is not that the things 
that are being attributed to Negroes in these cases 
are true, but that they are believed to be in Brazil, 
despite the fact that that country is usually described as 
one where racial amalgamation has succeeded and prejudice or 
even selective preference has been eliminated, I want to go 
on for one more point of this study*

"Our inquiry led to some other interesting results. In 
23 out of 36 cases the questionnaires contained references 
to formal associations of all kinds from which Negroes 
were excluded. Usually..."—
-—  Is this still in Brazil?
Still in Brazil, yes.

—  "..Usually these associations are clubs maintained by the 
upper-class families of the city, though there does not exist 
any reference to Negro members in club statutes, these are 
rarely admitted..."

Now, still in Brazil, I would like to refer to another
study by Professors Roger Bastide and Pierre van den Berghe, 
which was published in the AMERICAN SOCIOLOGICAL REVIEW,
Volume 22, No. 6 (1957).

39*



They gave a questionnaire to 5&> white Brazilian students from 
five different teachers* collages in Sao Paulo, Brazil.
Let me quotei

"..Stereotypes against Hegroes and nulattoes are 
widespread. 75 percent of the sample accept 2j5 or 
more stereotypes against Hegroes. Ho one rejects 
all stereotypes against Hegroes. ... Mulattoes are judged 
inferior or superior to whites on the same traits as Ifegroes 
but somewhat lower percentages. The most widely accepted 
stereotypes are lack of hygiene (accepted by 9 1 percent), 
physical unattractiveness (87 percent), superstition (80 

percent) lack of financial stability and foresight, (77 

percent), lack of a morality (76 percent), aggressiveness 
(73 percent), sexual*perversity* (57 percent), and 
exhibitionism (50 percent)*"

Q. Tell me, Doctor Van Den Haag, on that, how much of this 
is just rationalization of the basic feeling of group 
identification that you previously discussed?

A. 1 could say almost all of it. 1 do not think myself that 
any of these traits that are being, by the respondents to the 
gentlemen who undertook the inquiries, attributed to Ifegroes 
are actually necessarily associated with them, necessarily, 
in a higher degree than with other races.

What I do think thou^a is this: that the whites in
Brazil, as people everywhere, have & strong group feeling.
They are not fully aware of that group feeling, in the sense



that they’re not fully aware that they resist and diaiikB
396

mixture with Negroes; they’re not aware of their actual 
reasons, which I’ve been trying to describe, so they 
have the feeling, and they justify it to themselves, by 
attributing to Negroes all kinds of qualities, which are 
very largely, I think, imaginary.

Q* Also, if they did in effect recognize in themselves a funda­
mental feeling of identification solely with whites, they would 
consider this quasi-shameful, in effect, to have such an 
attitude?

A. mat probably is the case. I’m not sufficiently familiar with 
Brasil to say for certain.

Q. well, taking Americans, by and large, the ones with whom you know 
in setting stereotypes of this kind, we’re talking here about 
group : identification. I want to now find out from you whether 
today in our culture and in other cultures there is a tendency 
to feel a rather shameful attitude toward this desire to be 
solely with one *s own group.

A. I'm afraid there is.
Q* —  And rationalizes this in terms of other reasons which may 

have no validity?
A. I certainly would subscribe to this. I would like to point 

out that this tendency is very strong, very widespread, and 
is assisted through education. If I may: Most of my friends 
in New York certainly have the tendency that you have 
asked about —  that 1s, they wouldn’t for the life of 
themselves be willing to admit that they have a feeling, a



natural feeling of distance and difference toward Negroes.
597

They will deny that* They go to schools themselves in which 
they are taught to deny that, and these schools are 
supposed to eliminate this feeling of selective preference*

New, Dr. Charles H. Stember has written a book, a little 
book, called THE EFFECT OF SCHOOLING CW PREJUDICE AGAINST 
MINORITY GROUPS, which was published by the Institute of 
Human Relations in New York In 1961. I quotes 

"Much of —
Q. Who is Dr. St amber?
A. He teaches at the Institute of Human Relations at New York, or 

did, at least then; I’m not sure about now. I quote:
"Much of the research stresses that those who are

more educated become less prejudiced* The present study finds 
no such clearcut relationship. On many issues the
educated show as much prejudice as the less educated. On 
some issues they show more. The educated are more likely 
to hold certain highly charged and derogatory stereotypes.
They favor informal discrimination in many areas of 
behavior. As we go up the educational ladder, Old images 
of minorities are replaced by new ones which are 
no less harmful. ”

I may point out that toe education which is referred to 
is usually here racially mixed education —  that is, education 
in colleges in New York, which not only are of themselves quite 
liberal, but who have no racial din crimination in their



598
admission policies.

I may add one other quote from Dr. Stember. Oils is 
from an article that he wrote in the JOURNAL OP PSYCHOLOGY, 
1931# In which he says as follows!

— —  I*m sorry. I see I made a mistake.
This is in Stember’s book, but he is quoting, in turn 

here, Professor P. L. Hofstetter in an article entitled 
"A Factorial Study of Cultural Patterns in the United States," 
JOURNAL OOP PSYCHOLOGY, No. 32 (1951)

1'Neither better and more widespread education nor a rise 
In the standard of living affect racial discrimination 
directly. Racial discrimination is a function,.1’ —

That is, dependent.
-— "..is a function of the relative frequency of the 

clement discriminated against."
To put that into direct terms, what he says is there 

will be the more prejudice the more contact there is between 
the various groups.

Q. This is very similar to your prior Study of lander?
A. Yds« „ -• .V,

Q. The one you referred to, —
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ——  that increase in group contact itself brings about an 

increase in what we think of as discrimination?
A. Yes, because the more group contact, the more people 

become aware of their membership in their own group and



allenness of the other group*
Is there any evidence that the intermixture of students or that 
the Increase In contact between groups has decreased discrimi­
nation?
I know of no such evidence except —  Well, there is one 
study which you cany be referring to, by Sr* Coles*
In fact, to isy knowledge, it le the only study of the kind*
One would think there would be more* In this study called 
"The DMtsfcegration of Southern Schools," a psychological 
study by Robert Coles, He investigated the effect of 
desegregation on Itegro children that had been 
transferred to white schools* His conclusion is this, and I 
quote: —  There are many points, but I quote this ptlnt:

'‘What Is important to stress Is the observation that 
their admission to the white schools In the South and their 
attendance In them is stressful but not Incapacitating.w

They survive, though it vac stressful. That's what he 
seems to say. By "not incapacitating, *  I suppose he means 
they can go on, but It is a stressful situation*
In other words, they can possibly live through it?
They live through It* Now, It should be noted though that 
Dr* Coles study was made on 60 children between ages of 6 
and 7 and that he himself admits that these children are not 
representative In two senses) in the first place, they were the 
most capable and intelligent Negro children —  that is, 
a highly selected croup, and In the second place, whether
til* mvntn ta talimtail a m wife. ♦Jw* cflaat ***** m aim ahM «mw



400
few children transferred can in no way be compared to the effect 
that would be when a great number is touched, I think 
Dr, Coleo would be the first ewe to agree that his study 
has these limitations.

Q. Dr. Van Den Haage, are you acquainted with the statement that 
James Hood made, the Negro who was admitted to the University 
of Alabama and then left?

A, No, He left, but I*m not acquainted with the statement,
Q. At the time he left, he made a public statement, and I 

quote for you from wliai is said in the NEW YORK TIMES.
"James A Hood, the second Negro to attend the previously 

all-white University of Alabama withdrew suddenly to avoid a 
complete mental and physical breakdown arising out of an 
emotional conflict from which he saw no escape. Friends 
and associates who know Hood agree that this conflict re­
sulted from Hood *s attempt to become a real part of the 
University and at the same time to remain loyal to the 
Negroes he left behind.”

Does this illustrate the point you just made?
A. Yes* I couldn’t have invented it bettor, but I assure you 

I didn’t write that story in the TIMES. It clearly Indicates 
that he wished to become a member of the group, but it led
to uhat ^95 I quoted before,/a split In hla
personality. He could not BU8tain “ Y looser, oo he returned

•T



to his original group, which I think was wise in this 
case. But I would Ilk® to tasks one point* Uhls is 
in college, if I understand you correctly. I would have 
assuaed —  but I'm learning that assumptions are not always 
true —  that difficulty would no longer occur to that extent 
at college age. You see, my view has always -—  and perhaps 
I didn't make it sufficiently clear — - referred to grammar 
school and hl$i school children, because it is at that time that 
the personality formation occurs, that identity is still a 
fluid natter, that this conflict could be very grave and lead 
to considerable damage. I would have assumed that by the 
time one reaches college age that it is still a stress but 
not that much of a stress. But it seems, at least, in some 
cases, it Is.

Q. In other wards, what you mean is there is more voluntary 
control over it as you mature?

A. Well, yes, as you mature. By that time you have become aif you are normallittle bit more stable;/your image of yourself has becoras a 
little more stable. You might have some difficulties, but 
they are usually difficulties with which you can cope.

The difficulty with high school and grammar school 
children is of the same nature, but the egos, in my opinion, 
are not usually as strong as that of a person of college 
age who is mature enough; so my fear is that they 
would not be able to cope with these difficulties. And 
in college age, I assume you can.



Q,. Lot me read another report which was made on the sane 
subject, Doctor, frets, the HASmJGTOB:! POST of October 2$,
1963, stated to be a statement by a Negro girl transferred to 
a white Fairfax County hi#i school when she said, "Some kids 
at Luther Jackson, the Ifegro hî b school in the county, won*t 
even speak to me now because they feel I have tried to drop 
out of my race, I Just don't understand It."

Now, again, are we talking in terms of this sense that 
here her own group tends to reject her?

A. veil, I'd put it this way: her own group feels rejected by her 
for leaving and joining the white school. They react to that 
by rejecting her.

Q. Well, let me carry that one step furthers
Are you saying, In effect, that the bright individual, 

easily capable, let us say, of moviqg from one group to 
another and keeping up with the work, is nevertheless going to 
be conscious of these group differences and the stress which 
would occur?

A. I certainly am saying that, and you have yourself just 
illustrated it by the article you have quoted.

But I would like to add something else, if I may.
The bright Individual leaving his own group —  and in this 
sense, perhaps, the former Negro schoolmates of this little 
girl had a point —  the bright individual leaving for a 
white school tends necessarily to somewhat demoralize those

k02



non-whites who remain. It Is as thou$i you wore depriving 
them of their natural leadership. The result, I «hn»irt 
predict, is that their achievement would suffer taore than it 
would have had these natural leaders been allowed to 
remain with them.

Q,. Are you familiar with tbfe testimony which Professor Goodan 
gave here on Monday?

A. -Who?
Professor Gooden, the Negro Superintendent of Schools in 
Jackson, now retired, —  gave hare chi Mooiay with respect 
to the fact that the brighter Ifegro children in Jackson, the 
ones capable of making the transfer with the least possible 
adjustment, were the ones who should not go, and in hie opinion 
and in present psychological opinion, more than any they 
are the ones who should stay with their own group?

A. I fully agree with that opinion, both for their own sake and 
the sake of the group.

Q* Mow, why for their own sake?
A. Because, the reason that you Indeed have quoted. If they 

leave, they feel as traitors to their own group. Further- 
more, they will have the difficulty of Joining a group that 
they themselves, at least unconsciously, feel they cannot 
really Join. Hence, they will be in an artificial situation, 
pretending to be members of a group of which they are not 
really members, not felt members, they do not feel ambers, 
even though they ml̂ it pretend. Shat means there will be a

H03



404

spilt between their unsonsclous feeling of identity and the 
feeling that they will try to display, and that will lead 
to all kinds of psychological turmoil.

Q. Is this the stressful situation which Dp. Coles refers to?
A. Ho, I don't think he had that in mind. I think he meant

by stress simply the difficulty that the Negro child has in a 
new environment. I don't think he meant much further.

Q. Now, is there any question of the Individual's achievement 
potential and his motivation In transferring in that way?
If you take an individual of one group who Is an outstanding 
performer and you put him in another group There he Is not as 
outstanding a performer, does it have any effect on him In 
terms of educational motivation?

A. If your assumption is that in the other group, thoû i he Is 
able to get along, he will no longer have the relationship 
of being the best or nearly the best in his class, the effect 
in. all likelihood will be demoralizing! but this is a matter 
cm which I certainly wouldn't ay we have definite evidence 
one way or the other —  rather, we have evidence on both 
sides.

Q. Well, you spoke about the effect on the group left behind. 
Could you explain that further? What would be the effect 
on the Negro group from which the leaders could leave?

A. 1*11, I think that effect will simply be that that group, 
apart from emotional reaction such as feeling betrayed by 
its leaders, will not have, so to speak, a paragon i



osr* prototype to emulate, and as a result its own motivation 
for achievement will be considerably reduced.
Would there be any sense of rejection in the group as a whole?

A. There certainly will be the sense of rejection that you have 
mentioned yourself in the case of the Washington school girl.

Q. Would it tend to increase consciousness of lack of equal 
progress of the group that remains behind, any sense of 
Inferior acccmplisivaent ?

A. Oh© group would literally feel left behind.
Q. In this sense, let me ask your opinion, on the question of 

teachersi,
Is it your thought in this group formation that the 

teacher should be Ideally a member of the same identifiable 
group as the pupil?

A. well, this is, I think, not a matter of opinion, but rather 
a matter of observation. I have with me a paper written by 
Professor David Gottlieb of Michigan State University, who has 
made & number of observations on this matter, and they seem 
00 iX: theoretically what I would have expected, but I would 
rather quote his observation. There ore two ldndsjhe refers 
to, in general, the motivation of Ifegro children in Southern 
segregated schools, aa distinguished from Northern mixed 
jonools, and he refers also to the question you just 
mentioned. let me quote. His paper was delivered at the 
American Orthopsychiatrlc Association noting on March 19,
196̂ , and has not so far been published.



Gottlieb states, and I quote:
"...A greater proportion of Negro students from 

•Southern segregated s<fcools Indicate a desire for 
college than do Negro students from Northern schools.
It is among the Negro students in the inter-racial 
sdiools that the fewest students 'with college -going 
intentions are found,"

©rnt relates to what you have just questioned me about; 
namely, that —

Q« Hie greater educational motivation?
A, Yes. That’s correct. He continuesj

"Negro students at the Southern segregated schools are 
more likely than those in the Northern schools to match 
expectations with aspirations. The greatest discrepancy is 
found among Negro youth in the Northern inter-racial high 
schools*"

Let me interrupt far a moment here to point out that the 
result of matching expectations with aspirations is happiness, 
and a result of the difference between the two is what we 
caaaonly call unhappiness. That is, if you aspire to 
some thing that you are actually capable of achieving and 
achieve it, you are reasonably happy, and so on; if your 
expectations are unrealistic —  your talents and your 
abilities and so on do not enable you to achieve what you 
expected to achieve, the result is usually a very unhappy 
and frustrated person.



Now, about the question or Itegro teachers, Gottlieb says: 
n• •. It seems quite likely that Negro students are 

more apt to see Negro as opposed to vhite teachers 
as understanding their goals and as having a desire to 
help the student attain goals."

She explanation for this perception "may be the unique 
relationship that can take place between members of the 
same ethnic or racial group. Within the segregated 
classroom the Negro teacher can discuss and deal with 
specific problems unique to Negroes. The inter-racial 
classroom setting would not be conducive to such a dis­
cussion even though the teacher ral̂it be a Itegro."

Q. Are you familiar with the work AN AMERICAN DILEJS4A?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall that this was one of the works referred to by 

the Supreme Court?
A. It is In the Footnote 11.
Q. On the point on which we now are, I would like to read from 

that book one paragraph and aak if It concurs with that which 
you have just read from Dr. Gottlieb:

"Canady has reported that a group of Itegro stulents showed 
an average IQ six points higher when tested by a Itegro 
psychologist than when tested by a white psychologist, and 
that a group of white students showed an average IQ six points 
lower when tested by a Itegro psychologist than when tested by 
a white psychologist." And he gives as the reference to that,

407



408
"The Effect of Rapport on the IQ, A New Approach to the 
Problem of Racial Psychology," printed in the JOURNAL 
OP NEGRO EDUCATION for April, 1936.

Does that concur, does that agree,with what you have 
just expressed?

A. That does agree with what I have been trying to say, and in 
fact, we have new experiments since that more or less 
confirm this. Vte may add, the younger the children, the 
more this is the case. The child has the confidence to perform 
well when interrogated, questioned, tested by a person with 
whom he can identify racially, and lacks that confidence in 
himself and his own performance, and therefore his perfomaance 
is reduced, when that is not the case.

Q. Are you familiar with Professor Eli Ginsberg at Columbia?
A, I know him.
Q. Do you know of his book, SHE NEGRO POTENTIAL?
A. I haven't got it, I'm sorry.
Q» I would like to read from that one paragraph by Professor

Ginsberg, and again ask if this concurs, if his opinion concurs,
with those of yourss

"A Negro student who attends an interracial school in the 
Northiaay encounter other psychological obstacles. His 
teachers are usually white. This fact alone may inhibit the 
quality of his performance. A Negro student may be further
inhibited by repeated failures to meet the competition of



better prepared white studenta.”
409

By referring to the teachers, does this *gMn __
A. Yet, certainly this confirms what I have been saying. It 

simply la the result you would expect.
Q* Finally, Dr. Van Den Haag, you referred this Morning to a 

*hl Dblta Kappa (Jowdssion project by Herbert Way and John 
Corey, entitled "Action Patterns in School Desegregation."
Do you recall the reference?

A, Yes, and Vm trying to find it.
Q. I would just nice to read to you one paragraph from that

Publication and again aak If this la consistent with what you 
have been sayings

s

After a tint- because of their academic deficiencies
and because they do not feel that they a n  a part of the
school, same Negroes become sullen and disgruntled. Bie
same students who paid no attention to degrading remarks
®de to them by whites at the beginning of desegregation,
suddenly take offense and retaliate at the slightest prove- 
cation."

A. Tea, and I would explain this with a tens that I hate 
previously used. An Insulting or degrading remark la of 
course always unpleasant and la reacted to with a matching 
attitude, I would say, but what has happened here In all 
likelihood la that hating stayed for a while In the white 
sohoc1, these Negro students hews become themselves unsure 
of thaomelvss, both as to their Identity and their



performance ability, and as a result they become far more 
sensitive to these remarks than they uere, because the 
remarks now find an echo in their own psychic that they did 
not before find.

In other words, the quotation you gave indicates that 
the debility, the intensity of reaction of Negro students to 
degrading remarks, increases the longer they stay in the 
white school. What I have just said is en attempt to 
explain this.

Q. In other words, the Increase in contact Itself makes the si­
tuation worse, rather than better?

A. It does, because It makes the Negro student more unsure, both 
of his capacities and his identity. Thus, the insulting 
remarks that before, so to speak, could slide off because 
it didn’t touch anything in the Negro student’s mind, now 
is reacted to severely because It really touches on an 
unconscious conviction in the Negro that has been formed 
owing to the length of his contact in the white school.

Q. Let me complete the reading of the portion I started 
from that study:

"A Missouri principal stated, ’Prom the aptitude and 
achievement scores of our colored students, it was clear 
that the majority could not cope with our academic program. 
Instead of Negroes being elevated, our whites are slowly 
succumbing to mediocrity. Typical Negro student questions 
were, ’why am I not able to learn like the white students?” ’'



How, does this tend to show, In your opinion, Hr. Van 
Den Haag, the desirability of separate education for Negro

411

and white?
A. It certainly does tend to show that mixed education threatens 

to do very grave harm to Negroes emotionally, without
helping them educationally, and to do very considerable 
ham to whites educationally.
In your opinion, Dr, Van Den Haag, which la superior, from a 
purely educational point of view; the separate school for
Negro children and white children, or the intermixed school 
for both?

A, You ask about grammar and high school?
Q. I'm talking about grammar and high school,
A* I have not the slightest doubt in terms of preventing 

emotional harm that segregated schools are required,
Q. Do you know of any studies at any time which tend to show 

that there is actually harm to the individual, mental harm
to any child, from the use of separate schools as opposed
to mixed schools?

A. Would you repeat the last part of your question?
(The question was read by the reporter)

A* I know of many assertions of such harm. I know of absolutely 
no evidence demonstrating the existence of such harm.
On the contrary, as I tried to point out before, attempts 
to produce such evidence has actually tumedout to show that



liana occurs from desegregation and not throû i segregation. 
Thank you, Dr. Van Den Haag.

Is there anything else you would like to pdht out?
One thing more, I think important, since we are discussing 
education. I have with me a study called "Comparative Study 
of the Adjustment of Negro Students in Mixed and Separate 
High Schools,” which was published in the JOURNAL OP NEGRO 
EOTCATICK, Fall, 19̂ 3, by Roderick W. Pugh, This is, to ay 
knowledge, the only study that has attempted to find out 
whether the performance of Negro students in de facto 
segregated schools in this case in Cleveland, I think, 
was inferior to the performance of Negro students in 
mixed schools in the sams sity, and Negro schools of 
the same environment. May I quote the conclusions?

The conclusions of Mr. Pugh came to this*
"There is no statistically significant difference in the 

academic achievements of Negro students in the two types of 
schools.

"There is no significant difference in their academic 
interests."

And he went bade to studies previously undertaken, which 
had the incidental result of leading him to this conclusion:

"No reliable difference was found in their total 
adjustment...

"The group in separate schools, however, showed far better



413
adjustment to the social life of their schools than the Negro 
groups in mixed schools.”

I think that is all the additional evidence I wanted 
to submit.

Q,. Shank you, Dr. Van Dan Haag.
THE COOTS1: Any questions from the defendants?
MR. CANNADA.: We have no questions.
M  THE COURT: Any cross examination?
MR. YOONS: We move to strike the testimony of this 

witness on the ground the testimony is not relevant to the 
issue in the case.

THE COORT: Overrule the motion.
MR. GAHHADA.: On behalf of the defendants, we would like

to adopt the testimony of this witness.
SEE COGHF: Very well.
You may step down.

(Witness excused)

MR. PITTMAN: I would like to make a statement and then
call our witness.

We are not jumping from one area to another! we are 
moving logically and gradually, we hope, from one area into 
the other. We have been dealing with educational and 
psychological factors, and now we will go into the anatomy, 
biology and genetics —  sciences in that field.

Your Honor will recall the Supreme Court has often, as



well as other courts, stated this principle, that the
Constitution does not require things which are different
in fact or opinion to be treated in law as thou$i they
were the same. That quotation is from the Perkins v.Iurens Steel Co.
case, 310 US 147, by Justice frankfurter.

Now, in the Brown case, the MACP, of course, had that
principle in mind, and they undertook to show there were no
differences between the white and colored races, and that
therefore the equal protection clause would apply, because,
since there was no difference of consequence, there was no
rational basis for distinguishing or for classifying one
race or one people or one group from the other.

We have already shown by several witnesses —  well,
we've shown by the last witness that the statement made
by Dr. Redfield —  and it was one of the fundamental bases
far the Brown decision. I will read that again. Redfield Southsaid in the/Carolina case and in other cases:

"Differences in intellectual capacity or in the ability 
to learn have not been shown to exist as between Negroes 
and whites, and, further, that the results make it very 
probable that if such differences are later shown to 
exist they will not prove to be significant for any 
educational policy or practice.

Hien, under the assumption that in spite of what Dr.
Redfield has said, it might be shown by some witnesses or

4l4



migit appear in the record that there were differences,
contrary to what Redfield and others said, and that 
those differences might be significant. Then Myrdal’s 
AMERICAN DILEMMA, was cited, and in the appendix to the 
brief of the NAACP counsel, and Myrdal in several places 
in his work took the position that whatever differences 
there are were environmental and not genetic and that those 
differences, If they did exist, could be cured by changing 
the environment of the Negro child —  that is, if you put 
the Negro child in school with the white child, changing 
his environment to that extent, then you would cure that 
difference.

I quote from page 139 of Myrdal on that point. He 
says:

"Compared to the average white man, the average Negro 
of the present day seems to exhibit the following physical 
traits..."

— I'll not read them, but I'll read one:
"...Cranial capacity slightly less."
That is, the Negro's cranial capacity is slightly less* 

Notice the word ’slightly." Then on the same page, he 
continuesi

"Cranial capacity and perhaps other traits are 
also modifiable by environmental changes, and the 
differences do not therefore necessarily or wholly 
represent hereditary traits."



Now, that was cited in Footnote IX.
We move now in this case to the genetic factors 

involved. We will offer testimony to show that 
environment will not change the physiological and 
morphological matters that control whether or not one 
may, as Redfield said, have ability to learn; and so now, 
at point, we leave the psychological area, without 
clear cleavage, and we go to the morphological area.

®  MR. YOUNG: Your Honor, may it please the Court, inasmuch
as counsel for the interveners has stated what his reasons 
are and what the witnesses expect to introduce now and 
testify to —  that is, to the anatomical differences of the 
Negroes and whites —  we respectfully move to strike all of 
the testimony on the same grounds as we did heretofore, that 
it is irrelevant to the issues in this case. We respectfully 

®  submit that the only issue before this Court is whether or not
the Jackson Public Schools are in fact operating a segregated 
school system, and if so, in ligit of the Brown decision, the 
Court has no other choice but to rule, if it is operating a 
segregated school system, then to make the injunction permanent; 
and we respectfully submit that the testimony about to be 
submitted by the interveners is irrelevant and should be 
struck, and we move to strike it out.

USB COURT: Well, I will overrule the motion and let 
the testimony be produced. If it is not relevant and has no 
bearing on the issues at all, then at the appropriate time I



will exclude it or disregard it as having no probative force.
So let the testimony be produced.

m. BOBERS? E. KDTTMER, called as a witness by the interveners and
having been duly sworn, testified as follows J

DIRECT EXAMINATION
EX’ MR. EEHMAHt

Q. Give the reporter your name, your occupation, and your 
address.

A. Robert E. Kuttner, I teach at the Creighton School of Medicine, 
Omaha, Nebraska.

Q. Will you state for the record, Doctor, briefly something about 
the training you have received and the degrees you have 
received?

A. I have a doctorate in zoology from the University of Connecti­
cut. I attended from 1952 until 1958. I have spent three 
years in post graduate work in brain chemistry at a mental 
hospital in Connecticut, Institute of Living.

Q. Now, you're not talking to the reporter. You're talking to 
the people in the back of the room.

A. And for the past three years I have been teaching normal 
biology and preclinical sciences, department of Creighton 
University School of Medicine. And I have dene research 
in brain chemistry and biochemical anthropology, and I have 
done semis work in biological and psycho logical areas relative



4l8

Q. A little louder as you go.
Now, will you please state for the record of what 

societies you are a member? Or some of them?
A. American Association for the Advancement of Science;

Ihe International Institute of Sociology; Nebraska Academy of 
Science; American Chemical Society; Sigma XI, honorary 
professional society, and various other —  The 5Xigenics 
Socidy of the United States; Eugenics Society of Great 
Britain.

q. do you hold any offices in any scientific societies at this 
time?

A. I was fomasrly president of the International Association 
for the Advancement of Ethnology and Eugenics, and I 'm 
still on the board of directors.

q. Doctor, have you published a number of works in your field in 
physiological chemistry, neurochemistry, biology, psychology, 
and so on?

A. Yes, sir.
MR. P3TOIAN: I tender at this time, Your Honor, the

biographical statement, together with a list of the 
publications, notes and cocmunicattons that D.r. Kuttner 
has authored in his field.

TEE COURT! Het it be received in evidence and marked 
as an exhibit.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Internenor*s Exhibit No. 12)



MR. PITMAN: Will the Court new hold Dr. Buttner
qualified as an expert?

THE COORTi Yes. He is qualified as an expert.
Dr. Kuttner, in the studies you have made, are you familiar 
with the biological and physiological differences that exist 
between races and the bases therefor?
Yes, I am.
Will you state what some of those processes, physical and 
biological processes, are by which the traits or charac­
teristics are handed down from generation to generation?
And we realize that you could talk about that for a week, 
but will you please talk about it briefly and summarize 
it, if you can?
Well, the subject you are referring to ts the branch of 
zoology known as genetics. This field of study is devoted 
to elucidating the mechanisms by which physical traits 
and psychological traits are passed from parent to 
offspring. And for the past 75 years or more, this process 
has been in the hands of specialists in various branches of 
biology, and in the present time these various branches have 
contributed to a comnon understanding of the subject, which 
includes information from chemistry, biology, botany, histology

Now, to put this in lay language, we know that in every 
cell there is a nucleus. ' In every nucleus of every body 
cell, barring certain exceptions like the red cell, there are



elements called chromosomes, that when a cell divides, these 
chromosomes divide also. And these chromosomes are known 
to control the inheritance of traits. They store the 
information by which a new cell builds itself. They are 
the blueprints. These chromosomes are further subdivided 
into units called genes, and these genes, by chemical 
analysis and by other means, have been shown to contain sub­
stances called nucleic acids.

Now, we have gotten down to the very basic moleculer 
structure. These nucleic acids are long molecules, long 
chains, and they have as part of their structure various organic 
bases, and the arrangement of these bases, the sequences of 
these bases, provide the code by which the cell stores the 
information it needs to build itself. These are nucleic 
acid triplets, and each triplet Informs the synthetic 
machinery of the cell what amino acids to place in what 
position in a protein.

So we move now from the unit of inheritance, the 
nucleic acid, to protein. Now, proteins are the most 
impotent element in protoplasm, and some of these proteins 
have very active functions in tire cell. They are catalysts, 
and these in turn are called enzymes.

Now, the activity of these enzymes determines 
metabolism, and metabolism, to define that briefly, is 
the synthesis or breakdown of cell components —  nutritional



1*21

elements and structural elements in the cell. By controlling 
the formation and the proportion of enzymes made, which 
enzymes are made, how much, whether are normal or abnormal 
enzymes —  because we do have instances where enzymes haw 
boon modified by some accident and, therefore, their activity 
is lost —  but by regulating the formation, the amount, the 
quality of these catalysts in the cells, we thereby regulate 
all the activities of the cells, of all cells, and this 
includes not only somatic cells of the body in general, but 
also the cells that are associated with mental functions, 
which would include all the cells of the central nervous 
system, the peripheral nervous system, and likewise the same 
process would apply to endocrine glands, which also regulate 
body activity and mental activity.

I think I have summarized.
Q. Now, you come eventually, do you not, to the determination 

of individual differences in human beings? Is that correct?
A. Yes. 5he individual differences would ultimately be traced 

to the operation of the same forces in the cell, the cells 
of that individual or that organism. We would picture this 
by a reference to, say, bone, that if the enzymes that 
regulate the formation of bone were very active, we would have 
more bone growth; if the endocrine substances were very 
active, that would play a role in this formation, then 
w« would have increased growth. On the other hand, other



systems in the body vould likewise be responsible. I
picked for an example the bone, but I could have picked any 
example to illustrate this point. And differences in bone 
would determine the person*s height, or differences in 
endocrine function vould determine how fast he grows and 
how tall he grows. This vould also be determined as 
metabolism, how fast he bums his food, how active he is.
It would determine every biological activity.

Q. Nov, Doctor, tell us whether or not the protein molecules 
and the nucle 1a-acids which you spoke about govern or 
determine individual differences, and also govern functions, 
os well as those structural differences.

A. Well, the illustration of bone vould have been a demonostra­
tion of how a structural element is produced, the quantity of 
it and the quality of it. The amount of an enxyrae form 
may determine the activity of an organ. If we have 
inherited a stomach which secretes a lot of acid, this would 
all be traced back to a genetic element, because originally 
there was a trait which Involved the enhanced production of 
protein to males a stomach cell. There would have been regulators 
in that cell which were inherited which would control the amount 
of stomach acid produced, and we would have by this means 
bridged the gap between the physiological and the molecular.
But tt> take It a step further, this demonstration fctein it a 
number of steps, and the connection between these steps are 
the subject matter of many sciences. Briefly, however, if we



vere to demonstrate the functional activity with respect to 
nucleic acid, we could inject these substances into the 
body or destroy them by some means, and then determine what 
changes took place in behavior. likewise, we could destroy 
them or modify them and search for dif ference in structure.

So in terms of this original analysis, we have the ability 
in the enzymes to modify nucleic acid by sane means, and then 
search for resulting change In structure, anatomy, or 
function.

Q. How, are there any behavioral differences in animals, we* 11 
say, which we may relate to human beings, which could be 
correlated with chemical activity in the brain?

A. Well, in the end, of course, the total capacity of the 
brain depends upon its inherited equipment, the apparatus 
that you have, and the genetic materials are the basis for 
the amount of apparatus, the amount of equipment, you have, 
and the quality of it. To show that nucleic acids play a 
role, —  this again is very recent work —  one can feed 
or inject substances into animals or modify the body’s 
mechanism for making these substances, and then search for 
differences. Now, this has been done from animals ranging 
in simplicity from the flat worm up to human, but, again, 
this is very recent. I may illustrate perhaps in between —  
the intermediary range between the flat worm and the human 
might be the laboratory rat. In this case, If you inject 
certain substances or drugs which are known to interfere 
with nucleic acids svnthesls In the bodv . such substances



are being produced and examined because of the Interest in 
slowing down cell growth in the field of cancer research.
But these same substances when injected into animals 
very often will interfere with the nucleic acid synthesis 
in the central nervous system, and thereby produce behavioral 
changes. Rats treated with such drugs lose the ability to learn 
certain tasks. Again, feeding the substances into rats for 
a long period of time —  Now, I'm not referring to the same 
substances, but feeding the nucleic acids themselves to animals 
has been reported in recent articles to enhance their learning 
ability up to a certain point. likewise, by feeding these 
substances to persons suffering from degenerative changes 
in the brain due to old age have been presumably benefitted 
from it, so far as memory function is concerned.
Would that be a permanent benefit or temporary?
This probably would be a temporary one. Again, it’s very 
recent.
Because if it's permanent, I want some.
The assessment of the importance of this for these animals is 
not yet complete.

But what I have tried to make here as a point is that 
these nucleic acid substances, which are not only the basis 
for the formation of the heredity of the organism, but they 
are the blueprints, the information storage depots of the 
cell, may likewise be the information storage depots of the



central nervous system, where ve are not storing biological 
information, but behavioral information, or something that 
we have learned.

Q. How, to shorten that, Doctor, would these various 
functions and activities of the brain, the endocrine 
glands, are they under genetic control or under environ­
mental control?

A. Well, they are very certainly under genetic control.
I think I mentioned a little earlier the chain of sequences 
that occurs between the laying down of the nucleic acid 
and then the final effect. This is the general answer to 
this question, and I can't answer it more except to say 
that the brain is a structure j its function is thought; its 
function is determined by enzymes, by hormones, by 
potentials on the membranes, by the general metabolism.
Bow, this metabolism is the same for the brain as it 
is for the cells, and we inherit a capacity. We inherit our 
enzymes * rate of formation. In this way, certainly the 
function of the brain, its activities, are under genetic 
control.

Q. May I ask you this, Doctor: Is there any way, or are there
any studies that have been made or can be cade which will 
illustrate the fact that behavioral differences are 
inherited in human beings?

A. Well, of course, we can't study human beings as in the 
chemical realm very well because of the laws. We can't



operate with human beings as we can with animals; the 
demonstration with human beings would be impossible in 
our society.
Something has been said here about twin studies.
’fell, that is an indirect way, but to answer your question,
I think that the way that most people would think of a 
demonstration would be by analogy from animals. This 
we can show. We can take animals that have been found to be 
intelligent, animals that learn rapidly —  a strain of 
rats —  and then we can take another strain from the same 
original breed that have been selected for slower learning, 
or less potential to learn, and study the chemistry of the 
nervous systems in these animals, and we do find that 
there are chemical differences that accompany 
behavioral differences. For instance, in a nerve enzyme 
called cholinesterase the levels of this enzyme are diffe­
rent in smart rats from the levels in retarded rats, and 
this trait —

You might state, if you will, Doctor, in that experiment 
by which that was determined, how do you find the difference 
between the dull rats and the smart rats?
Well, it is an artificial distinction based upon a single 
task. There are many ways you can test a rat. One way is 
to run them through a maze, and they learn very quickly 
whether there is a reward in this alley or another alley, 
s-ati when they learn this task they have teen tested by



427
criteria and are assumed to be intelligent. How many times 
you have to run them before they learn is a measure of their 
intelligence. Then you can take from the same breed other 
rats which are less successful in finding the motivating 
factor for their taking the test. !3he rats so separated 
when bred together —  these two groups are bred together —  
preserve their trait of fast or slow learning, and from 
generation to generation —  and for rat generations, many 
many dozens —  the traits persist. Likewise, the chemical
trait.
About how many years did it take to carry this experiment with 
rats?
Well, I don't recall because this was done many, many decades 
agop the initial selection and breeding experiment was done in 
California decades ago. Hie strains still exist, and the 
difference in learning still persists, and the difference 
in the chemistry, which was only discovered perhaps ten 
years ago, is still present.
How long ago did you say this difference in chemistry was 
discovered? Did you say chemistry?
Chemistry. The difference in chemistry was discovered about 
ten years ago in these brains.

Q. Since about 1954?
A. Let's put it about that date. A little later possibly, 
Q. Row, are you familiar with an article by Sir Cyril Burt, 

that deals with that ̂subject, "The Inheritance of Mental



428
Ability”?

A. Yes, I am familiar with that article, and this is 
another means of —

Q.. —  First, tell us who Dr. Burt was.
A. Dr. Burt was a psychologist employed by the London County 

School Board approximately 50 years ago to study the learning 
abilities of school children in England. And this he did 
for the greater part of his life, and he finally suntnarized 
his findings, and this was published in THE AMERICAN 
PSYCHOLOGIST, Vol. 13, January *51.

Q. Is that ’51 or *58?
A. *58. I’m sorry. Hiis article was entitled "Ohe Inheritance 

of Mental Ability11 and culminates his act of life. He had 
already retired.

Q,. /ould you state for the record the conclusions reached by 
Sir Cyril Burt, Dr. Burt, with which you agree on the subject 
you have been discussing?

A. Well, so far as his work is relevant to ray field, he was 
employing a method of study which was designed to determine 
the components of heredity and the components of 
environmental Influences that made up the mental abilities 
of school children. He was searching for a way of determining 
what relative amounts we could ascribe to these two 
different mechanisms of influencing children - environment 
and genetic components - in the whole make-up of mental 
ability; do he employed for his study children drawn from



different schools and determined the closeness of their 
genetic association and sought thereby to ®e if this closeness 
was correlated with their Intelligence. lie was using, in 
other words, the twiT* study method of determining the degree 
of genetic influence in a trait. This method is used not 
only for mental, but also physical traits. We all know that 
identical twins are called identical because they are identical. 
This we can see visibly. We know that sotae of the invisible 
traits, the ones we don’t notice, like fingerprints, blood 
types, are also identical. The question is, are the mental 
abilities also identical? This is hard to tell, and the 
only way you can do this is to test these individuals 
with formal examinations designed for measuring various 
capacities of the brain.

So he took such identical twins from the school system 
of London, and he took besides the identical twins that were 
reared apart. This is, of course, something that happens, 
unfortunately; the twins were separated at birth, or shortly 
after; and they are genetically identical, all descended from 
one egg, the sums egg; they share the same prenatal experience, 
and their genetic equipment is identical, since they are the 
same cell divided twice and be cams two individuals; but now, 
when these individuals are born, they are separated in some 
Instances, perhaps through the inability of the mother to 
support the two children, or for other reasons, and so he 
had in his samples some such individuals a&so.



!ME COURT: Doctor, just remember -where you are leaving
off, and we are going to take a ten minute recess.

(Ten minute recess)

^50

After Recess
MR. PITTMAN CONTINUES:
Q, Dr. Kiittner, you were testifying concerning Dr. Burt's study 

entitled "The Inheritance of Mental Ability, " and I wonder 
if you would not for us summarize the results of that 
study. I believe you have explained how it was conducted, but 
if you have not fully done that, continue that, and then 
summarize the results and tell us whether or not you agree 
with his conclusions.

A. I was explaining that Dr. Burt selected out of the school 
population individuals whose genetic association varied.
There were in that group identical twins. These are 
really two persons who share their heredity completely 
because they all were derived from one egg, one fertilized 
egg. And he had two types of identical twins: he had the 
identical twin that was reared in the same home; and he had 
the identical twins that were separated. This was the 
second kind.

Now, when you have an identical twin reared in the
same home, raised in the same home, you have individuals 
who share heredity; they also share a common environment 
insofar as the same parental influence, same family influence,



came local caaaunity, same school. When the twins ore 
separated, there is a different person raising the twins; 
they probably go to different schools; probably there 
are different economic levels in the homa. This then 
varies the environmental influence, but, of course, the 
genetic influence can't be modified.

Q. In other words, the socio-economic factors are different where 
they are reared apart?

A. That's correct.
Q. And if they are reared together, they are the same.
A. That's right.
Q. Go ahead.
A. For instance, the grandmother may be raising ore twin and 

indulging that twin, whereas the mother may be very strict 
with the one left with her.

In addition to identical twins, he also had fraternal 
twins or twins who were just like brother and sister, bom 
at the some time but not from the same egg. These two 
individuals are not any more closely linked in genetic 
traits than brothers or sisters. There were two eggs 
fertilized at or© time, and these are two individuals.
And he had groups of non-identical twins that were reared 
together.

Finally, —  Well, not finally, but he had siblings,

431

ordinary brothers and sisters but not fraternal twins, that 
were reared together; and he had siblings, brothers and



k32

sisters, vho were reared apart; and finally, he had 
the regular school population of unrelated children. 
And these completed his study.

So he tested these individuals with various tests employed 
in England —  some of them also employed in this country —  
and showed that the correlation between their test 
performance followed very closely the closeness of
their genetic link, that the identical twins scored on 
these exams to about the same degree of proficiency, to 
about the same extent. The correlation in terms of numbers
was .9 and higher.

Q,. How much?
A Well, as far as various intelligence tests, he gives numbers 

like .944, .921, .925. —  That's "Pinal Assessment, .925." 
This is considered a very hifgi correlation. As a matter of 
fact, if the same individual were to take the tost twice —  
if a single individual took this exam today and then was
retested two or three days later, his scores on these exame 
would not be any closer than the two identical twins taking 
it at one time. So it's actually like one person taking the 
exsm when identical twins tales it.

When the twins were separated, there was also a very 
high correlation. Now, these identical twins when separated 
also scored very high in this correlation. They were close 
to *9. The actual number is .876, the Pinal Assessment.



This means that though these twins were separated, their 
performance was almost identical, a duplicate.

Now, comparing this correlation to that of non-identical 
twins reared together, or to brothers and sisters reared 
together, we have sums like .551 and .558* What this means 
is that identical twins, even when separated, score almost 
identical grades on these exams far intelligence, for 
general intelligence, while individuals who are not 
closer related than brother and sister or fraternal twins,
2-egg twins, they score much ieos alii®. Now, when identical 
twins are separated aid we have a completely different environ­
ment, and when non-identical twins or siblings - brothers and 

sisters - are roared together, we have the same environ­
mental influences, but a much more distant genetic link, and 
yet though the environment remains close for the 
non-identical twins reared together or for brothers and sisters 
still the identical twins score much closer grades to each 
other even though reared apart. Now, this demonstrates that 
the genetic components in learning ability, in mental ability, 
are more important than the environmental influence.
Now, can you state that in round figures?
Well, on page 9 of this article, Burt does state this in 
terns of numbers,
Will you read that, for the record?
I will. He begins, "Prom Table 2...’ He refers to a table



from which he di’aws Ills data:
‘'...it vill be seen that, with the crude test results, 

taken just as they stand, nearly 2j5$ of the total variance 
appears due to non-genetic influences, i.e., to environment 
or to unreliability, and about 77$ to genetic factors; ...”

And he continues:
"...with the adjusted assessments only about 12% (or 

slightly more) is apparently due to non-genetic influences 
and 89% to genetic factors.”

<£. What does he mean there when he says —  I believe that study 
has been used, Doctor, by some other witness, and he stated a 
different figure from that 88.

A. 88$, which means that the influence of the genetic
element counts almost for the entire test performance, and 
only 12 percent environmental influence. What this means 
is that this is almost entirely a physical trait, or inherent 
as a physical trait. Now, the numbers here, for the two numbers 
he gives —  77$ and 88$ —  are both very large, both very 
convincing; but he is able to adjust his figure, his actual 
crude data figure of 77$ to 88$ by making certain corrections. 
And he corrects —

Q. Now, what does that mean in terms of mental ability, or 
educability?

A. I think what —  Well, I don't know if I finished what I was 
going to say here on this number.

In testing children, you have to know a little about them



uben they take their examination, and there are oases 
where maltreatment at home mi$it affect the child's 
performance, or whether the background of the child is such that 
he is not able to perfom in school for reasons not connected 
with his genetic ability; so by interviewing these students 
and checking on their homes and so forth, he was able to 
eliminate certain individuals from the sample. Wien he does 
that, then he reaches the number of 88$.

And this means, this adjustment here that he makes, even
not

though this adjustment is/ important —  if you didn't make 
it, it doesn't change the picture so far as the meaning of 
my testimony is concerned, because 77$ is not that different 
from 88$, It means that the mental ability that these 
students display in terms of general intelligence is very 
largely, almost exclusively, due to their physical inheri­
tance . That's what it means.

Q. Is there anything that can be done to change the inheritance 
of children? In other words, that 88$ could not be changed 
by any method of instruction? Is that right?

A. Well, it is possible to destroy some of this correlation 
environmentally. If you beat the children before they take 
the exam, they will be distracted. And this is actually one 
thing he is checking for; seeing that the child Is fed, so 
that when he is taking the exam there Is no distinction 
due to hunger. You can lower the correlation, but you can't 
change the native ability. However you measure it, whether



it*8 77 op 88 percent, the feet remains that it is genetic, 
and rig the gmsetio ability is southing that is beyond
our science»
Do you have any other studies along that sane line, Doctor, that 
com to substantially the same conclusion?

A, well, in the same study there are scattered references, but 
X donft t-JHwir that I have to quote then here any further.
The Interesting thing about the Burt study is that he 
©employed. the twin study method, Which is one of the 
finest or .least ambiguous methods of demonstrating the 
connection between genetic endowment, and scorn behavioral or 
sane anatomical, traits.

How, the other study that X have here which bears on this 
subject is —
— *. Before you go to the other, Doctor, X would like to 
identify "The Inheritance of Mental Ability, " by Dr. &art, 
for the record,please.

THE COURT: Was that for identification?
MR* ranfiUf! Ve offer it in evidence*
*HE COURT? Vbry well. let It be received in evidence.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Xntervenar*s Exhibit No. 13) 
Now, proceed* Doctor,

A* Well, along the lines of twin studies, there is another 
article here which Illuminates the preceding article and 
helps validate it* This article is entitled "Twins Brought TJ!p 
Apart,"



Q, Would you state the author of that reticle and when it 
was published? Is that the one In HXrSKICS REVIEW?

A* That's collect, EU3KKIC3 REVIEW of July, 1958, and the
author is James Shields of the Genetics Unit of the Institute of 
Psychiatry., Mauds ley Hospital, London, England.

Q, Rov> both of these studies, the twin studies, were made 
in England*

A. That's correct* a .
Q. And they were made since 195*W
A* That's ri#it« This article has been published in 2958*
Q* All right. Tell us about that study.
A. This study originated by a television appeal to

Blglish listeners or viewers that if they were one member 
of an identical twin pair, they should come forward and 
volunteer for research. By this means, this wide publicity,
Shields obtained a large group of Identical twins that were
separated at birth, or very shortly thereafter. He 
obtained a sample size twice as large as the preceding 
one, which I'm not going to quote. He obtained a total 
group of ?8 —  I believe that's the number —  38 pairs 
of identical twins that were separated at birth or shortly 
thereafter* Seme of these twins had been separated for 
the entire childhood and adult life and never met until 
they were introduced by the sponsors of this research.
One twin would come in in response to the broadcast, and



they would locate* the other twin in sane cases living as far 
apart as Denmark and Chile.

And the importance of this paper is that this 
separation here is complete. This maximizes the environmental 
factor. These identical twine were reared apart by com­
pletely different parties. In some cases, perhaps, it might 
have been a grandmother or an aunt, or in other cases they 
might have been reared apart separated by oceans. The environ­
mental difference was very pronounced here. They weren’t, in 
most cases, even living in the same city, as in the case of 
Burt who drew his samples from the schoolrooms.

This 3tudy then is important because of the separation 
factor, which is so complete, so total, and therefore 
emphasizes the environmental factor, and also because it*s 
such a large group, jQ pairs, the largest group studied, 
although since then he has found --

Q. What was the conclusion reached as a result of that study?
A. Sale Ids likewise gave intelligence tests, and he found that 

identical twins when raised apart still resembled one 
another more closely than ordinary siblings raised in the 
same household. The correlation was again very high, the num­
bers of .77, .7̂ . This is very hl$i compared to the correlation 
figures given for siblings raised in the same home, which 
is .5* These numbers may differ a little bit, but then, of 
course, the testing conditions differ and the type of environ­
ment in the test situation differs, and there may be some



factors there, but again his correlation la very high* And It 
shows, as Shields emphasises throughout the paper, that 
the genetic factor is predominant in the inheritance of 
intelligence, or test performance that measured the intel­
ligence*

Q. Did he cane to the conclusion finally that environment does 
not fundamentally alter the personality of the child?

A* Veil, I said that he measured intelligence. Now, actually, 
his actual Interest was personality. Of course, in this case, 
the report is based on self assessment and on observation.
It‘s not a metrical quality you could put in numbers, but 
there were striking resemblances in the behavioral traits.
The personality traits of these twin pairs, even though 
separated —  the type of mental quirks, neurotic symptoms 
a person showed, appeared in the other twin despite the fact 
that they were raised in different environments. The tastes 
for Dsoaic and so forth were sometimes similar; their 
mannerisms were similar; and again this emphasized the 
importance of the genetic element.

And he adds, on page 121 of this article, and I quote 
it:

’'Pram the material as a whole one gains the impression 
that the personality of the mother and her methods of child 
rearing can vary quite a considerable degree without funda­
mentally altering the personality of the child.”



Because these were In fact different mothers raising these
children. And this underlines and supports the work of Burt, 
who had a smaller sample of Identical twins, and these identical 
twins that Burt worked with for the most part came from the 
London school environment. Many of Shield’s cases, of course, 
involved wide separation —  one in an urban community, one 
in a rural community —  and yet the type of responses that 
these people gave to Interview situations were very similar.

So again we stress the importance of the genetic element 
here in the intelligence-personality.

MR. PMAN: I tender this study by James Shields for
identification and admission into the record.

THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.
(Same reoeived in evidence and marked as Intervenor's Exhibit Ho. 14) 
Q. Doctor, are you familiar with any articles, any other articles, 

of this nature, "The Inheritance and Nature of Extraversion"?
A. Well, the article I have here —
Q. What does that mean, "extraversion w?
A. It's a measure of a personality trait.
Q. Do you have articles on that with which you agree?
A. Well, I have an article here that I am gging to cite. The, " . ■ r ■ '}

reason for it, of course, I think will be evident. This article 
is also from KICS REVIEW



441
Q. Vfoat Is the date of that?
A. April, 1956.
Q. That is, of course, since 1954. Now, so ahead and tell us —  
A. The title of this article is ’’The Inheritance and Nature 

of Extraversion.” The author is H. J. Eysenck.
Now, this article is likewise devoted to twin study,

and Eysenck is a very well known and competent psycholo­
gist in England.
State for the record where this paper was first read.
It was at the meeting of the Eugenics Society in 1955, 
December 7th —  numbers’ meeting of the Eugenics Society.

Q. Go ahead.
A. The work that Eysenck carried out on these twins, he obtained 

them from the area of greater London, and he carried out a 
wide battery of examinations and found that identical
twins —  now, these were not separated twins) they were 
identical twins in the same environment —  performed on 
various intelligence tests —  obtained scores that were very 
close. Now, this confirms the previous references I have
made.

likewise, he gave tests for autonomic function. Auto­
nomic function is related to endocrine function, neuro­
endocrine and nervous function, and things like blood 
pressure, for instance, and temperature, and responses to 
stimuli. These things are part of the spectrum of things 
one would measure when interested in determining autonomic



function. He gave such tests.
Likewise, he gave personality tests to measure Introversion

and extraversion, and again, these are personality traits 
that I mentioned. This trait —  It*a not important, I 
suppose, to go into vhat the traits are, but the outgoing 
person and the inward-looking person would define these 
traits. Veil, there are means of scaling these qualities 
in individuals, end one can employ various tests.
Vhat Is the significance of his findings?
Veil, the significance is that a personality trait —  How,
I mentioned already the intelligence and autonomic tests.
How, the personality test of extraversion. These three items 
he found to be genetically determined. They were very 
close in scores, in scores obtained. These Identical twins 
in these studies obtained scores on these examinations that 
were very close —  high enough correlation to indicate the 
genetic components being dominant.

So these three things, autonomic ability, intelligence, 
extraversion-introversion, were found by Eysenck to be 
correlated with the genetic components. This is important 
because personality makes up part of the total individual; 
it*s not just Intelligence. It’s a temperamental trait that 
is shown to pass on in the process of inheritance in the 
same way as a physical trait or a mental trait. We have 
here a personality trait that is found to be inherited, by 
twin study method* This means that In the end v© have those



genetic elements in the cell as the primary responsible 
factor in this* Twins obtained the same genetic equipment 
and displayed the same personalities, so far as this measure 
is concerned.

Hie other tiling that is interesting here is that the 
autonomic test indicated that the genetic element is very 
strong. Autonomic is in part a member or part of the 
team that makes up the endocrine system. We have, I think, 
mentioned in the earlier part of my testimony that endocrinas 
are related to intelligence} they are one way of regulating 
cell metabolism, and likewise they influence the brain, and 
certain endocrine changes can affect learning or wipe out the 
ability to learn. Hie classical example there is cretinism, 
which I chould have mentioned earlier. Hie absence of a 
harmone will make a person an idiot, and yet the replacement 
of this hormone will restore to him his normal function.

Is an extreme example, but we know that the endocrine 
system, the neuro-endoerine system, the autonomic functions 
that are part of the peripheral nervous system are all 
inherited. Of course, he has measured only this single 
component, and he has demonstrated, however, with this 
single component the extraversion factor, that there is a

'• * • * "i . *

very high dependence upon the genetic closeness, which, in 
turn, demonstrates the Importance of genetic element in 
manifesting this trait.



Mi, ft
-tV ‘ T t T F

Nov, I can cite certain ports of this article here 
that surra arises some of this.

Q., I don11 believe you need to do that. You testify, do you, 
Doctor, that the findings of this gentleman Eysenck correlate 
with the findings made with respect to the twins to which 
you have testified, except they involve different charac­
teristics?

A. They agree , and they extend the work. They agree with the 
preceding work, and they extend it to Include the personality
factor, which Shields himself brought up but did not quantify. 
He based his conclusions upon interpretation and self- 
assessment. This man measured with tests and obtained & 
number, which ewe to manipulate according to symetrlcal
quality.
It moves the same frontier of knowledges a little bit
further back in another area?

A* That is correct.
Q« That's right?
A. In an equally important area, the personality being as impor­

tant as the intelligence in day to day operations of society.

MR. PlTiMAJh I’d like to identify this article for 
the record,please, and offer it in evidence.

THE COURT* Let it be received in evidence.
(Sam received la evidence and marked as Intervenor13 Exhibit HO, 15)



Q. Now, Doctor, in our efforts to move back the frontiers of 
knowledge a little more than in recent years, I call your 
attention a study by Steven 0. Vandenberg and ask if you 
are familiar with that study," Hhe Hereditary Abilities 
Study* Hereditary Components in a Psychological Test 
Battery"?

A. Yes.
Q,. When was that study published, Doctor?
A. That was published in June of 1962.

445

Q. >/hat publication?
A. In the AMERICAN JOURNAL OP HUMAN GENETICS.
Q. Nhat is the title of that article?
A. “The Hereditary Abilities Study: Hereditary Components

in a Psychological Test Battery."
Have you read that article or studied it recently enough to 
give us the benefit of the conclusions?
This study originated with a group of twins, and physical, 
anthropological qualities were measured —  components —  
and it was extended by Vandenberg to include aspects of brain 
function.

The importance of this study hangs upon the fact that, 
unlike the previous studies where general intelligence was 
measured, Vandenberg broke down the general factors into 
components, and he separated out from the arsenal of 
psychology and physiology a total of 117 separate test 
devices or scoring devices. He broke down the factor of



intelligence into subdivisions or specific factors, and he 
has a total of 117 separate scores from various categories. 
Some -were drawn from the usual mental abilities tests.
Him verbal ability, mathematical ability, computational 
skills, phrase comprehension, and then various other tests 
that measure your ability to reason, motor skills, perceptual 
skills, sensory tests, and measures of other things —  
personalities and musical tastes, and so forth. And he 
took 117 such scores and administered them to 45 pairs of 
identical twins and 37 pairs of fraternal twins from high 
schools in Dearborn and Detroit.

This is an American study. The study was perforated 
at the University of Michigan, the Institute of Human 
Biology.

And he found that with varying degrees of significance, 
but all the data being significant, he found that almost 
half of these tests showed the operation of genetic factor 
being the significant factor. In other cases, about half, 
or slightly more than half, he did reach a level of signifi­
cance. Some of these tests, perhaps tapping with the finger 
in tine with the music, and so forth, these were not 
conditioned, were not related to the genetic factor, or 
might have been environmental; but almost half, 44 percent 
of the testees of the 117 were shown to have genetic com­
ponents important or predominant. At least, they reached 
the level of significance by statistical tests.



447

And he concludes, or he makes this statement here:
'‘The results reported indicate that hereditary 

factors play a role in many areas of human skilled perfor­
mances, often in spite of the fact that these skills are 
highly practiced."

In other words, this twin study method has shown 
some skills of the 117 that he enumerates, though they could 
be, in the opinion of the common man, acquired by practice, 
still a degree of performance and a degree of skill was 
limited or controlled by the genetic inheritance of these 
twins.

That is the importance of the test, the fact that he 
has demonstrated the separate components, the specific 
factors, instead of general intelligence, and broken them 
down and showed which were highly correlated with genetics 
and which were loosely or not at all correlated with
genetics.

MR. PITTMAN: I tender this study by Vandenberg in
evidence.

THE COURT: Let it be received.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenor's Exhibit No. 16) 
Q,. Now, each of the studies concerning which you have testified 

are quite recent studies, so far. After you reviewed these 
becent studies, have you reached any conclusion regarding 
individual human differences in behavior and psychological 
traits, and whether or not they are more determined by



m

heredity or environment? —  Before I ask £ou that question 
though, I believe I should ask you this:

Do you know of any other new material, before I ask 
for that conclusion, that you would like to refer to or 
discuss before giving your final conclusion?

A. Well, I can answer both of those questions at once.
I do have here an article which reviewed this entire field, 
and I accept as my conclusion, the conclusion of this article.

Q.. All right, if you would like to use that, you may state 
the substance of it, please.

A. This is the most recent summary of this entire area, and 
it was published in SCIENCE, December 15, 1965, Volume 142, 
entitled "Genetics and Intelligence —  A Review.”

Now, this was published by the Department of Medical 
Genetics of New York State Psychiatric Institute.

Q.. Would you please, Doctor, since I don't have a copy, read 
that portion of that recent article that you believe 
relevant and material in arriving at the conclusion which 
you have come to?

A. Well, I will read the abstract, which is in this Journal 
the equivalent of the siamary.

Q. All ri#it.
A. "A survey of the literature of the past fifty years reveals

remarkable consistency in the accumulated data relating 
mental functioning to genetic potentials. Intergroup resemblance



449
in intellectual ability increases in proportion to the 
degree of genetic relationship."

Hiatus the end of the quote.
Now, this is shown in a table here, and one gets the 

range of the relationship. At the same time, one gets 
the range of the test criteria. Now, this total study 
reviewed a total of 52 separate studies covering a 50 year 
period of research, and it was found that, to re-state the
abstract by looking at this table here, this figure, that 
the degree of correlation between intelligence and mental 
traits is not too great between people who are not related.
We wouldn't expect that. By accident we might find two people 
equally bright, but we don’t expect it from a random sample 
of a random population. When there is & foster parent-child 
relationship, there is a slight degree of influence here 
upon intelligence. The foster parent, if he’s well educated , 
will try to train and raise the child in a way that will 
reflect tils own abilities. Bit that relationship is not 
as close as that between parent and child, because not a 
genetic element enters into it. There will be the parent- 
child correlation here because the genetic element is 
there and also the motivation to educate the child to at 
least the level you yourself have. Then when you check 
siblings, now you are locking for genetic traits In the same 
environment, and you find there is a fair correlation when



they are reared together! the intelligence correlates to 
about the .5 level. M s  is what we find for physical traits 
also*

When we cans once again tothe twin studies of the identical 
pairs, we find that we have the highest level of correlation, 
a .9* This repeats and recites these previous studies. The 
numbers are always very close and very hî h* v

And working back a little bit now, the reared-apart twin, 
identical twin, is slightly less matched with his other 
member of the pair, but Btili almost completely genetic.

And the 2-egg twin doesn’t correlate his factors with 
the other member of the twins to a degree much higher than 
siblings rated together.

So we have —  I have reviewed here, and. I accept this 
as my conclusion, the conclusion in this paper that genetic 
factors are predominant in the mental abilities field so far 
as we can measure. This repeats what I have said before 
and emphasises what I have said before, that the genetic 
element —

Q. Do you know of any modern authority that readies the con­
clusion contrary to the conclusions you have just now 
leached, to the effect that heredity, rather than environment, 
is the controlling factor?

• ■•‘■“v ,  * : I-* l i  As .A  t  <•' • -jrJfc6 ■’ * * yf* t •• > l o * 'A. Do I icnow of a modern authority--?
Q. —  Contrary to those you have read to the effect that genetics

450



Is the controlling factor, rather than environment?
A. Well, I have heard of people who would not accept this type 

of evidence.
Q. Veil, when I say ’‘modern authority,” I mean a study. Do 

you know of any study?

451

Well, not with twins. I mean, we have people who disagree 
with these results for reasons probably separate from the 
quality of the evidence. I understand that there are 
still people In Russia that would disagree with this; that’s 
the Iysenko school of genetics, which has no parallel in 
the civilised world.
Has he ever been recognized as an authority in the field of 
genetics?
He has been recognized by Stalin.
Has he ever been recognized by any reputable scientist out­
side of Russia, as an authority in genetics?
Ed has been defended by Communist scientists, but,from
attack, but this la a field that I can’t claim expert 
knowledge in. But I do know of one individual in England
defended him long ago, but this was not a point of interest
to me, and I’m not sure of the name, 

is
Q. Iysenko/the so-called scientist who came to the conclusion, 

without ever having studied at any of the universities and 
without ever having studied genetics to any great extent, 
that you could, through environmental factors, change 
winter wheat to spring wheat?



Yes, he had something to do vlth this field, but I have no
knowledge of his qualifications except they weren’t very
many, and I don’t know what his credentials are.

In thlB country I know of no authority in the field.
Well, to return to Lysenko, he never worked with twins.

is
And in this country I know of no authority that/recognized 
in the field that rejects this work, as such, though there 
are some people who would evaluate it as leas conclusive 
or less striking. There are such people. But I’m not 
aware of who they are.
I will ask you this: Are the findings you have just
stated contrary to what is generally known as the 
equalitarian theory in some respects; so that if a person 
is an equalitarian, he might be willing to accept dogma, 
rattier than facts?
Well, I don't quite know —  Ve would have to define 
equalitarian very carefully before I could answer that 
question.
In other words, one that believes rigidly that all men are 
created equal? Would that define an equalitarian?
Well, this might be one possible definition. I would say 
I can't speak for What the equalitarian would believe, but 
I would say, if I have to answer that question, that I 
suspect that a person who was dogmatic about some social 
or political or economic issues might not credit this type



of work with the importance that it deserves, but I can't 
say how or to what degree this credit would be withdrawn 
or not acknowledged; I can't answer that.

Q. Thank you very much, Doctor.
THE COURT: Is this examination going to extend much

longer?
MR. PITTMAN: It will extend beyond four-thirty.
THE COURT: Very well. I believe we will take an

adjournment at this point until nine o'clock tomorrow
morning.

(Whereupon the trial was recessed until the following morning)

THURSDAY, MAY 21, 1964, AT 9*00 A.M. IKE TRIAL WAS RESUMED.

THE COURT: Very well. Let the witness take the
stand.

MR. PITTMAN: We hope to get through in three additional 
hours with the testimony, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well.

(MR. PITTMAN CONTINUES EXAMINATION OP DR. KDTTNER:)
Q. Dr. Kuttner, you completed your testimony about the twin 

studies yesterday, did you not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. —  Illustrating the influence of environment as opposed 

to the Influence of genetics?



454
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All ri#it.

Sow, I will ask you, Doctor, as briefly as you can to 
address yourself to the subject of how races of men,
of people, have been formed throughout the ages, what influ­
ences have been brought to bear upon the formation of races* 
Hie various mechanisms by which races arose have been cata­
logued, and I think the principal one of interest is the 
process of selection. We have the modem evolutionary theory 
which explains that groups of individuals who have certain
traits incotnoon; a certain population that possesses common 
ancestry would naturally have common traits. And if these 
traits, attributes, be they physical or mental, are adjusted 
to the conditions under which that population may live, then 
we expect that that population would thrive. If the traits 
are not particularly advantageous or if they result in a 
maladaptation or maladjustment with the environment, then 
we would expect in due time that this population would be 
diminished; it would be less successful in fitting into the 
environmental circumstances. Now, this is the main process. 
May I ask you a scientific question*

Suppose a tribe of Eskimoes should be dropped into the 
heart of Africa, what is likely to happen to those Eskimoes? 

A. Well, —
Q. —  Over a period of time.



We would expect a certain amount of attrition to set in at 
once, because there are diseases in the tropical regions 
to which Eskimoes are likely to have low resistance.
Where would they get their polar bears?
Their what?
Where would they get their meat?
Well, they would adjust probably to the fact that the source 
of food has to change. This would be a lesser problem.
They would merely have to adjust their taste. But the
important things would be that their physiology, which is 
adjusted to a colder region, would not have any special 
advantage in the tropicsj it might even be harmful, 
particularly their resistance to disease, their resistance 
to heat. In case the temperature extremes rise, they 
are likely to develop fevers, —
Suppose you put a thousand Negroes in the Arctic region, 
from Africa, and just turn them loose. What would happen
to them?

A. They are being dropped in a polar region as we find them 
in Africa?

Q. They jould be transplanted to a polar region.
A. Well, without the equipment of civilisation, they would 

perish.
Q. Then in simple language, can you say whether or not climatic 

conditions and supply of food and so forth have anything



456
to do with race formation?
I don*t quite understand this question, but I would like to 
return — . If you place a person in an alien environment 
and instruct him in the requirements of survival there —  
that he must hunt polar bear — I think you would find your 
African population could develop skills and succeed in 
surviving to a certain extent by learning the tricks that 
are necessary to survive in that area* In the long run, 
however, —  not in the short term sense —  but in the 
long run, the Negro would be at a disadvantage in a polar 
region without the equipment of civilization . Sane would 
probably survive, but a large number of Negroes would be 
weeded out, and the survivors would represent a new 
population, and this would be a population that possessed 
sane genetic traits which would pass on to the next generation
and —

Q. Let's get to the point# Over the hundreds of thousands 
of years, haa Nature fashioned and formed races?

A. Yes. Yes, by the process of selection.
Q. What difference, briefly, has there been in the Influences 

of Nature on those who were located in Africa —  as between 
those located In Africa and those located in the more 

frigid areas of the north?
A. In other words, you are asking for a list of —
Q.. Not a list; just some of them.



A. Well, in the swat glands there would be different, more 
efficient means of regulating body heat, would be necessary.

Q. In Africa, you mean?
A. The disposal of excess heat would be necessary, and the 

conservation of body heat would be necessary in the Dolar 
region. One way by which this could be seen to by Nature 
would be the body size. Large animals which are found ln 
the northern regions are warm-blooded animals because of the 
ratio of body surface to body volume is less, thereby the 
heat radiation would be less. Other means by which adjust­
ment can be made to climate would include the ability to 
regulate the loss of heat in the akin by controlling the 
circulation. Now, there have been studies on Laplanders, 
aborigines and others, and search has been made, and there 
have boen scsne physiological differences. Another means 
may be the utilisation --

Q. Are certain traits weeded out of the racial groups?
A. Yes♦
Q. —  by reason of the climate, we'll say?
A. Yes, there are certain traits weeded out and certain traits 

concentrated in population. Favorable traits would be 
concentrated and favored.

Q. Now, are you familial5 with the writings of Dr. Carle ton Coon -
A. Yes.
Q. on that subject? Or is that a subject that he deals with?



Well, he deals with many subjects, but I think -

Are you familiar with his views on the effect of natural 
selection on the different races of mankind?
Well, his views are the camion views in anthropology.
Will you state briefly or read a brief excerpt that will 
illustrate what the views of Dr. Coon are, and then I will 
ask you who he is.
Dr. Coon, like other anthropologists, recognizes that we 
have various races, of various human types. These are types 
which are sufficiently different so that they must have 
been exposed to selective forces for a very long period of 
tine.
Do you have an article or a chapter by him entitled "Race 
and Ecology in Man"?
Yes, I do. I have a copy of this article.
On Page 155 is there a brief statement by him on tills subject 
that might be helpful in the record?
Well, he refers to the rate of change of different populations. 
How, this is the statement. This, by the way, came from 
the Cold Spring Harbor Symposia on Quantitative Biology 
in the year I960, and he states:

"There can be little doubt that human evolution 
proceeded during the latter part of the Pleistocene at 
an accelerated pace, particularly among Caucasoids and 
Mongoloids of the Palaearctic region. One reason was the



changing ecological challenge which grew as culture
accumulated, placing a continuous premium on certain 
unique human Cultures»"

He states that a second reason was the small size 
of breeding population which'allows genetic traits to be 
accumulated rapidly or lost rapidly; and small populations 
are easy to wipe out if they don’t possess favorable genes, 
and they are also small enough to be successful and to 
thrive in competition with other small groups if they 
possess favorable genes.

He states the same thing in another article, in another 
volume, much the same way, but briefly he means that 
the challenges thrown at different populations in 
different regions differ, and he then states, or implies, 
that a challenging environment selects more beneficial 
genes, because a challenging environment tends to be 
unfavorable and you have a premium placed upon native 
intelligence, and this if it’s absent or relatively 
absent in a group means that group is exposed to the risk 
of extinction, where if it’s present then that trait is 
likely to be concentrated or accumulated in the population.

So he contrasts perhaps Ice Age Europe with its many 
challenges to, say, the more comfortable regions of Africa 
during the glacial era--



460
Q. Let*s get down to the issues here.

1*11 ask you, first, who is Dp. Coon?
A. Dp. Coon is one of our most distinguished anthropologists, 

perhaps the foremost expert on European races, the author 
of many books.

Q. Where is he now?
A. Well, the last I heard he was —
Q. —  Where was he when he wrote this book?
A. University of Pennsylvania. He was the curator of the museum 

and functioned there as the anthropologist.
Q. Is he recognised as an authority throughout the world?
A. Yes, he is.
Q. How, have you read his views regarding the evolutionary 

development of the white and colored races?
A. !Ihat book, — In that current book which you have there 

he discussed the evolution of the various races, and he 
states that they underwent a separate but parallel evolution, 
and that they crossed the threshholds from primitive type 
of man, what is called homo erect us, to homo sapiens, 
modem type of man, at different periods in our pre­
history; that the Caucasian race made this evolutionary 
step over a quarter of a million years ago, 300,000 years 
ago, based upon the estimates of human type remains in 
Europe.

Q. By that —
A. —  He states also, if I may finish, that the Negro made



this step thirty to forty thousand years ago, that there 
are no ancient Negro skeletons that are identified as 
modern Negroes in Africa before that time, though there 
has been a very intensive search.

So on these grounds he explains that there are separate 
lines of evolution leading to at least five races that he 
can distinguish.

And the aongoloid made this step, if I may include 
the third race, some time closer to the Caucasian than to 
the Negro.

But each race is proceeding at a different pace of 
evolution, that the threshhold was crossed, betveen a 
more primitive type of man and modern man, at different 
times in the past. This is the point of that book, if you 
want to read it.
Do you have any short excerpts that illustrate your testi­
mony? Turn to page 658 and 664.
Veil, I have already cited his points, that the beginning 
Oj. man was at least a half a million years ago, that we 
already had distinguishable geographic races, and that 
these races became sapiens, the modem type of man, at 
different periods of history. This is the quote on 658.
Now, when you say 'sapiens," in the language of the cotton 
market or the riverbank or a street comer, is that —  what 
does that mean?
That means, sapiens" means "thinking man, 11 which means modern



man. Of course, the thinking process was present before
the homo sapiens* this is just a notaen tewn, part of the

462

nomenclature of anthropology.
He became what we recognize as a human being? Is that right? 
That's right.
Now, according to what you said, Coon says that the Caucasians 
became that a quarter of a million years ago, and the Negro , 
became that around 40,000 years ago?
Yes.

Q. You agree with that?
A, I agree with this because it is the opinion of other res­

pected anthropologists. Sir Arthur Keith has found a sharp 
separation between the primary races, and this separation is 
sharp enough to have required a great antiquity. R, Ruggles 
Gates and a number of other people very prominent in
their thinking in this field, leaders in their thinking In
this field, leading thinkers in these fields, likewise 
ascribe to this view, so that I think I would say that I 
accept it.

Q. Has any other anthropologist or any other authority accumu­
lated as much evidence as Dr. Coon accumulated for his book 
on the origin of the races?

A. In this country, no. This is the life work of Professor 
Coon, and there is in this country no one, I think, that



would rank with him In his field*
Q. Nov, let’s leave for the moment the matter of race
formation, and go to the question of race differences, and 

I will ask sou this questions
Are there any recognizable anatomical and physical 

differences between Negroes and whites that are significant 
for educational purposes? How, we’re not talking about 
psychological tests, but anatomical and physical charac­
teristics .

A* Between Negro and white that are significant for education?
Q. Tea.
A. Anatomical?
Q. Yes.
A. I can think of nothing that would be visible, She ability 

to hold a pencil and to focus the eyes on the page, I think, 
are the minimum requirements,

Q. Ihat is, if you stand them up side by side you don’t see 
such differences. But when you make anatomical studies, 
ralcrospopic studies, do you find those differences?

A. Well, no one has correlated microscopic structures with any that axe 
anatomical in general with education, Ibis is not a field 
that people are entering —

Q, You mean that the brain of the Negro and the brain of the 
white man are not different?

A. No, I didn’t say that. I’m speaking of visible gross



differences that are racial. There is nothing that one 
can point to that has any significance, to ray knowledge, 
to proficiency in school subjects.

Now, if we are speaking of the brain, which is —  we 
are getting with another subject now. Ve can*t tell a 
brain size by mere inspection of an individual. The 
thing has to be measured scientifically and sufficient sample 
has to be studied before conclusions can be drawn.
Well, have you studied the brain, and are you a biochemist? 
That is correct.
Have you made chemical studies?
Ihere are no biochemical studies on the brain. Racial —  
What differences are there between the Negro and the white 
brain?
There are well known differences in size.
Will you get into that? What are the differences?
Are you referring to the differences, or the differences, 
reported differences in size, or other differences besides 
size?
We are starting with the size. What are the differences in 
size between the Negro and the white brain?
Well, there have been numerous studies on this subject, 
and the general opinion, current opinion, that any survey 
would substantiate is that there is about a ten percent 
difference in brain size, volume and in weight, between



465

the people of Caucasian origin and people of African 
origin, Negro Africans. This would be eight percent or 
twelve percent —  would vary from study to study depending
on method and sample size, but it would tend to average 
about ten percent.
Is it generally conceded among all scientists that the brain 
is the center of intelligence? The seat of intelligence? 
That is correct. Yes.
And does brain size, then, have any relation to intelligence? 
Well, we know from several different types of study that this 
is correct. We know that in the ' process of evolution there 
has been an increase in brain. I think there is a chart 
here that was prepared; I don’t know if we have to use it, 
but there is no doubt here that the progression upward from
the great ape, the level of the great ape, to —

Q. Turn the chart around.
A. I don’t know how Important it is to make reference to this 

chart, but we have here various classes of primitive human­
ities —  various prehistoric fossil types of men and also the 
great apes. And what this chart shows is that there is an 
increase in the cranial capacity measured from the recon­
struction of the skulls from estimates, from the fragnents 
that are found, and we see here that the further up we go 
toward modern man, the larger the brain presumably is. This 
is a sign of evolutionary progress. The more complex tasks



466
a person has to perform, the bigger the brain must be. 
Finally, we reach modern types of man, homo sapiens, and we 
find the largest capacity. Also we have a considerable 
range because in here is thrown together several types of 
man, several reuses. Our Neanderthal man looks rather large 
here; this is only because he had a large skull, but some 
of the things that we notice from the skull of Neanderthal 
indicate that though his brain may have been large in seme 
ways it was primitive; certain regions of the brain in 
Neanderthal were less developed, though the size might 
have been --
Now, what does the scale at the bottom indicate?
This is capacity in cubic centimeters.

Q. Capacity in what?
This is the skull capacity, the volume.
Well, is it in pounds?
It’s a volume measure.
Well, what’s that "ccm"?
That’s cubic centimeters.
All right. And that n2000," is that 2000 cubic centimeters? 
This I think would represent the extreme reported range of 
one or two Individuals. 'Hie average homo sapiens —
Now, the great ape has from 500 to 700?
Yes.

Q. And then you move on to the Neanderthal man, that has a



k 6 j

capacity or, say, from 1100 to 1500 cubic centimeters?
And then the homo sapiens ranges from over a thousand to 
over 2000?
Yes.
Go to the next chart. Explain what that represents.
This represents the volume of the cortex, the outer layer of 
the brain, which was here plotted against total volume in th 
brain. This is now in cubic millimeters, and it*s in terms 
of a log.

Q. A what?
Logarithm. This is a device to make aurved lines straight. 
But in any case, the progression here shows that the 
amount of cortex that we have relative to the amount of 
brain that we have increases as we progress upward from a 
very primitive form of primate-like animal to monkey to ape 
to man. This indicates the importance bf the cortex, the 
outer layer of the brain, where we have the interconnection 
between the various nerve cells.
What is the function of the outer layer, the cortex?

A. Well, the function is to integrate behavior, movement —  
The nerve cell by Itself can do nothing alone. It has to 
be connected with other nerve cells, aid when you have 
these connections, they take place, send out to each other 
to a very considerable extent in the upper layer of the 
hraln, the cortex, the gray matter, which is sane thing that



468
we find increases throughout evolution, the relative 
amounts of it, and thereby this indicates the importance 
of it for complex function, including thought.
Now, this graph--It shows the growth as you go up
in the evolutionary scale. Now, once you get to man, then 
there are variations, are there not, in the size of the 
brain and in the amount of cortex? Is that right?
Yes. Now, in size, in particular, we know this. The 
cortex, there are some estimates.

Q. All right. Go to the third chart there.
Explain that chart, .-please.

A, This chart represents the region of development of the 
brain. This here is —  (indicating)

Q. —  You are pointing at the first?
A. Ciat’s right. —  Tarslus.

This is a great ape —  (Indicating)
Q,. Now, you are pointing to the middle one. 
A. And this here is human.
Q. The first is the brain of what, now?
A. Tarsiua. A primitive form of life which led to the monkey. 

It’s a pre-monkey stage.
Q,. Now, what does the clotted area represent in there, in the

last two?
A. This area is really a region, in volume terms. The frontal 

lobe.



Q. Nhat Is the function of the frontal lobe?
A. This Is believea to be the area of association where we have 

our higher activities, higher mental functions.
Q,. Is that where the thinking is done?
A. That is one way of saying It yea.
Q* la that where we organise materials in a case nw» this?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there any difference between the frontal lobe of the

Caucasian and the frontal lobe of the Negro?
A, There has been some work on this and some reports Indicate

that we find smaller frontal lobe volume in the Negro.
This is the work of an anatomist called Bean that was
published a number of years ago In a journal. I don’t know,remember, contains,what, it actually/ in terns of numbers, but I have these citations
here — — but he reported frontal lobe area--

Q. Do you have Bean’s study?
A. Yes.
Q. You said there is a difference in brain weight between Negro 

brain and Caucasian brain, but you didn't say which one is 
bigger. Will you state for the record which one is bigger.

A. Which?
Q. Which is larger.
A. The Caucasian brain on the average is larger than the Negro 

brain.
Q. Now, do you have studies on that particular point?
A. Yes. I have here, I think, the most recent review of this



subject and —
Do you have the one by Hambly?

Ttiia is the one I have here. This is the one published 
in 19̂ 7 in the Chicago Natural History Museum publication 
called FIZLDIAHA. ANTHROPOLOGY. Hambly is the Curator, 
African Ethnology, there.
This is the moat recent and comprehensive review of 
racial brain volumes or brain weights.
What does it show, briefly?
This chart shows his last table, and he lists here measured 
capacity for different peoples.
Will you please start at the top and read that chart for 
the record?

THE COURT: I suggest you stand on the side.
The top line here lists Europeans, ancient and modem.
This is a collection of skulls.
Let me ask you if that includes Caucasian?
That is Caucasian.
Continue to interpret that chert.
And he lists after it the pleasured capacity of these 
European sicuJa, and he lists the volume he finds as i486 
centimeters.
Is  that the largest brain listed by Hambly in his study?
It is the largest average. This is a collection of not



a single brain. This is a collection of numerous simllsj 
not a single one. The average for the European is the 
largest.

Q. All right, continue.
A. Below we have the Old English skull. These are--

471

Please read that chart.
"Old English." The volume here is "1472."
What was the volume of the first one?
"1488." The difference is not significant, I don't believe.

We then come to "Miscellaneous Mongoloids." Ihis is
a grouping of several Mongoloid type people, and again we
find a very sizeable cranial capacity. The actual numbercubicis 1465. One thousand four hundred sixty five nfentimeters.

Below we have additional Mongoloids, the American Indian 
and Eskimo, and, likewise, their volume is sizeable, "1460 
cubic centimeters.

We come to a specific population, Polynesians, and the 
volume is large, 1451.

We come to Fijians and Loyalty Islanders, 1439.
We come to the African Negroes, 1346.

Q. Now, what is the difference between the Negro and the 
Caucasian?

A. Well, not bothering to subtract, I would say about ten 
percent.

Q. Proceed.
A. Well, below we have Melanesians, and the Hindu and Tamil and —



but we get down to the bottom and we--
Q. —  Well, let's read then all, because that doesn't sound 

good In the record. You are now with the African Negro,
1546. Go on down from that.

A. The Melanesians. These are dark people living in New 
Guinea. We have a volume of 1545.

The Hindu and Tamil. These ere populations of sub­
continents of India; they measure 1535*

Now, we have additional Melanesians, and this population 
was found to be 1525 cc.

And Australian aborigines, 1294} and Tasmanians, 1256 cc.
Q. All right, you can take the stand again.

MR. PITTMAN: I tender for identity and for the record
a copy of the study by Hambly from which that chart was 
made.

THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence and marked
as an exhibit.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Internvenor'B Exhibit No. 17)
CU Is that representative of the studies, the number of studies, 

that have been made showing the relationship between the 
sizes of the brains of different peoples?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you familiar with the writings of a man by the name of 

Boas?
A. Yes, I read one of the works of Boaz.



Q. I will ask you if Boas is the man, the anthropologist, who 
was cited and most relied on in the book called HIE 
AMERICAS DILEMMA by Myrdal, which was cited as an authority 
in Brown versus Board of Education?

A. In Myrdal ?s book there are a number of different authorities 
and different contributors. Boas was probably dependedcon 
rather heavily for his ktudy for information regarding physi­
cal traits.

Q. Mow, I read to you from a book written by Boaz in 1911 
entitled HE MIND OF PRIMITIVE MAN. About the brain.
When I have finished, I will ask you some further questions 
about it. This is on, beginning on, page 2̂  of THE MIND 
OF PRIMITIVE MAN:

“We will new turn to the important subject of the 
size of the brain, which seems to be the one anatomical 
feature which bears directly upon the question at issue.
It 3eems plausible that the greater the central nervous 
system, the higher the faculty of the race and the greater 
its aptitude to mental achievements. let us review the 
known facts. Two methods are open for ascertaining the 
size of the central nervous system: the determination of 
the weight of the brain, and that of the capacity of the 
cranial cavity. The first of these methods is the one 
which promises the most accurate results. Naturally the 
number of Europeans whose brain weights have been taken is 
much larger than that of individuals of other races.



There are, however, sufficient data available to 
establish beyond a doubt the fact that the brain 
weight of the whites is larger than that of the 
most other races, particularly larger than that of 
the Negro, That of the white man is about 13>60 grams.
The investigations of the cranial capacities are quite in 
accord with these results. According to Topinard 
the capacity of the skull of males in the Neolithic period 
in Europe is about 1560 o.c.’b. lhat of the modern 
European is the same. Of the Mongoloid, 1510 c.c.’s.
Of the African Negro, 1̂105 c.c.’s. And the Negroes of 
the Pacific Ocean, 1460 c.c.*a. Here we have therefore 
a decided difference in favor of the white race. In 
interpreting these facts, we must ask, Does the Increase 
in the size of the brain prove an increase in faculties?
TMft would seem highly probable, and facts may be adduced 
which speak in favor of this assumption, 
first among these is the relatively large size of the 
brain among the higher animals, and the still larger size 
in man. Furthermore, Manouvrier has measured the capacity 
of the skulls of 55 eminent men. He found that they averaged 
1666 c.c.’s, as compared to 15&> c.o.’s general average, 
which was derived from 110 individuals. On the other hand, 
he found that the cranial capacity of ̂ 5 murderers was 
1580 c.c.’s, also superior to the general average. The



same result has been obtained through weighing the brains
475

of eminent men. Hie brains of 54 of these showed an 
average increase of 95 grams over the average brain weight 
of 1557 men. Another fact which may be adduced in 
favor of the theory that greater brains are accompanied by 
higher faculties is that the heads of the best 
English students are larger than those of the average 
class of student.*'

And then, further, I read this one thing:
"Hie increase of the size of the brain in the higher 

animals and the lack of development in microcephalic 
individuals are fundamental facts which make it more than 
probable that increased size of the brain causes increased 
faculties, although the relation is not quite as immediate 
as is often assumed."

Now, do you agree with that statement made by Boaz 
in 19 11?

A. Yes. I'm not familiar with the reference to the brain 
weight of the nairdererB, however.

Q. What’s that?
A. lie has a reference there on the brain volume or brain 

weight of a group of murderers. Now, the other portions 
of Boaz*s statement have been substantiated] there is 
general agreement; but I have no idea of anybody else 
studying the brain weight of murderers except that one



reference there.
X see. All right. You Have no knowledge of the brain 
weight of murderers as compared vith others?
Ho knowledge *
How, do you have any recent studies, more recent than 
19 11, that prove what Boas said then was the truth?
Well, other than the Haably study, here is —
What about Pearl?
Other than the Hambly study there are several studies, 
and. one Is by Pearl, Raymond Pearl, who worked la the 
biology department of —
What *8 the date of that study?
193 *̂ He worked in the biology department of the 
School of Hygiene and Public Health, John Hopkins 
University. j

Since Dr, George testified about that and ve will read 
his testimony; X. won’t ask you to go 1 rfco detail, but I 
would like for you. to tell who Pearl is and identify that 
Pop the record.
I identified him as a member of the faculty of John HopkJLhs
University, and — -
Is he an authority in the field?
Yes.

MR. PHUSCAIf: May I identify that for the record, Your 
Honor, and tender it for admission, the study of Raymond
Pearl?



477
TEE COURTS let it be received.

(Sane received in evidence and marked as Intervener’s Exhibit No. 18)
Q. Now, do you have another study, by Gordon, "Amentia in 

the East African"?
A. Yes, I have a copy. Ihis is H. L. Gordon, M. D., a publi­

cation in EUGENICS REVIEW, 1924.
Q,. Does his finding accord with those of Harably and Pearl 

and those recorded by Boas in 19 11?
A. Well, Gordon studied the weight of the African, various 

types of African Negro, measured the brain capacity. He 
then compared this capacity to reported values far 
Europeans.

This chart summarises the numerical values he obtained.v ■ .\ • t ; ■* cubicThe European white, calculated by Berry, was 1481 /Centimeters,
and the East African of various types —  their cranial
capacity he found to be 1216 , a difference of 165 cubic
centimeters, and the percentage difference is 1 1 percent.

Q. 11.1?

A* This manber is within the range usually found in comparative 
studies of volume or weight between white and Negro.

Q. Now, on yesterday were you present when I read an excerpt
fl’am Myrdal’sbook, saying to the effect that the difference 
between the weight of the white brain end the Negro brain 
waa <xily slight?

A. Yes, sir.



*78

q . I yin ask you if that percentage shown by th© studies
of Gordon Is a sllfgit difference or a materially substantial
difference?

A. It Is a substantial difference.
MR. PITTMAN: Vfe now tender for identification into th®

record on article by H. L. Gordon entitled "Amentia 
in the East African,* published in the EUGENICS KEVIEtf.

THE C0U1??: let it be received In evidence.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenor*s Exhibit No. 19) 
q. Are you faGri.U&? with a work by a Dr. Reginald Ruggles Gates 

entitled ’’Human Genetics"?
A. Yes. '< ■

Q. Who was Gates? '■*>. - "•
A. Professor Gates was a very distinguished English biologist 

and geneticist. His period of research covered many 
decadesj he was on many expeditions, made many studies oa 
liman populations, and was perhape on© of the foremost 
authorities in the world, we ’ll say, within the past 10 

or 20, in human genetics.
Q,. do you have a photocopy before you of a portion of his 

work entitled 1‘Human Genetics," Volume 2?
A. < L v  d t
Q. Page 1138 —  You may have a copy —
A. I have a copy of it.

Would you read what ht has to say on that subject?
A. On the subject of brain — Well, he cites Pearl and seme



other studies, but his sumary is as follows, on page 1138: 
.♦.it seems difficult to avoid the conclusion that 

the brain of Negroes in .America and of East Africans is 
some 10 percent less than in Europeans. This conclusion is 
unpalatable to those who affect to think that all races 
are equal in an evolutionary sense, but mere denial of the 
facts will no longer meet the case."

^79

Q. Is that work in two volumes by Reginald Rugglea Gates on
’Human Genetics regarded as an authority in the field of 
genetics?

A. Well, I would say that it is very highly regarded.
Q. Is It used?
A. Yes. It was published in39̂ 6 and not updated, but I would 

say copies of it are in use and much in demand.
MR. FJGltolAN: we offer "Human. Genetics'1 by Dr. Gates

for identification into the record.
1HE COHRTi let it be received in evidence.

(Sans received in evidence and markBd as Intervener's V.hlbit Ho . so) 
Q. Are you familiar with the writings of Professor

A.

Q.

A.

Robert Bean? On the subject of the negro brain.
Yes,
Do you have a copy of any of hi3 writings?
I don't have a copy of Dr-. Bean's *oric, no, but I have a
small sumary of it here. I made reference to it earlier 
I believe.

*

Q. If you don't have a copy for the record, do you have before



*8 0

you any summary from It or anything copied from it that would 
be useful to illustrate?

A. Yes. I have here some of the results.
Q. Will you state than for the record, if you agree with them?
A. This article was entitled "Some Racial Peculiarities of the 

Negro Brain, and appeared in the AMERICAN JOURNAL OP ANATOMY 
Volume %  in 1906. This was a study of Hie American white 
and the American Negro, and Bean, as in other studies 
since cited, showed that there was a considerable wei$it 
difference between these races, so far as brain was concerned.

He also noted some differences in the corpus callosum.
This is the tract which connects hemispheres. There was 
some difference in the shape. And from this, he concluded 
that there might have teen functional differences in the 
association centers cf the Negro brain.

Q. What is the d$te of that work?
A. 1906.
Q. Are the conclusions readied by him still valid,in your opinion?
A. I think they have been confirmed a number of times. There 

are some people who do not accept this work. There are 
some people who have confirmed it, and there are some people 
wao have not found the same differences but have found other 
differences. I know that Bean reported the frontal lobe 
smaller. I mentioned that earlier, I believe. Others have 
not found this to be true, and again other experts have



48l
confluaed it. There is some dispute on this. However,
even in the case where confirmation of this one point was
not made, other differences were found. The weight of the
frontal lobe may not have been found different by otherfoundworkers, but they may have/the dimensions to be different, 
or the height of the frontal lobe, or estimates of its 
development; but it's been confirmed in essence a number 
of times.
Are you familiar with the studies conducted by Dr. Vint? 
Yes, X am.
Do you have a copy of any study made by him?
Dr. Vint published a report In the JOURNAL OF ANATC&Y 
entitled "The Brain of the Kenya Native." That was 
published in 1954.
Are you in agreement with his findings?
Well, he had several findings.
That is, his conclusions from the findings.
Yes.

Q. Did he —  Were his findings with respect to brain
BWpho&ogy substantially the same as those made previously 
by others, anthropologists and — ?

A. By "morphology" you mean weight? 
ft. Yes.
A. His weights were again ten percent different. He found some 

differences in grooving of the brain.
Q. Will you read his summary which appears on page 222 of



hia article?
(Reading) '1. Hie average weight of the brain of the Kenya 
native ie 10.6 per cent or I!j2 gja. less than the average 
weight given for the brain of the European.

,f2. No disproportion was found in the percentage weights 
of the fore-brain and the mid- and hind-brain in the native.

A lunate sulcus was present in 70 percent of the 
brains examined, and there was a tendency to expo core of 
the insula.

”4. --  "
Tell us what the insula is?
It’s the lover portion of the brain. It would be hard to 
demonstrate, but this ia not a major point. I think the 
next thing ho comes to, with reference back to Bean, I thin]: 
Is important:

4. Hie reduction in size of the native brain, as 
compared with the European, seems to be accounted for 
mainly by a failure In development in height."

Hiat means that the native brain lacked development in 
the upward dimension, the frontal pert. Then with reference 
back to Item 2, we found the weight difference in the fore- 
train. This did not confirm Bean, but this other item, 
the failure of development of the upper dimension, the 
hei^it dimension of the frontal lobe and frontal section 
of the brain, shows a difference again.



Q. Have you read the 4th item?
A. That was the 4th item, the height of the frontal region 

of the brain. Then the 5th item:
"5* The cortex of the native brain was found to be 

narrower than that of the European. This is true of 
all the individual laminae in the areas examined, except 
in the lamina zonalie, and in laminae 5 and 6 of the 
visuo-senflory area.

48?

Q. What is the laminae of the brain?
Well, the cortex, the itewer part of the cortex —  by 
“newer part'1 I mean the part that developed mo3t recently 
in the animal kingdom —  called the isocortex —  this is 
the main covering of the brain. This is layered; there are 
six layers, and the importance of this is demonstrated 
by the fact that the higher up we go, the more developed 
these layers are, the more prominent they are, and the dif­
ference that Vint reports, he reports differences between 
various groupings of these layers. I'm not prepared to 
say anything about the importance of these different layers. 
That will be covered by sane other evidence.
I do say in terras of numbers —  and he doesn't cite numbers —  

there was a 15 percent difference.
You say there is 15 percent difference in thickness?
Yes. He found the Negro brain was 15 percent thinner so 
far as the cortex was concerned, and this cortex was composed 
of six layers.



Q,. Go ahead with the next one.
A. "6. The pyramidal cells of the supragranular cortex,

and the Beta cells of the motor area, are smaller in the 
native brain than in the European.

"7« Cell counts per unit area are the same in the 
African and European brains.
Now, when he says "cell counts per unit area," that means 
per square inch of area?

A. Well, when he sections the brain, he has a two-dimensional 
preparation. He can't count in depth; he can only count 
in surface. But this refers to the total volume. He would 
refer to a volume instead of an area. And what he is saying 
then is there are the same number of cells per unit volume 
in the region studied in the Afri con and in the European.

Q.< But the volume of the white is greater than the volume of the 
Negro brain?

A, Yes. And the cortical layers, which are the important 
layers, are also different.

MR. PITTMAN: Ve tender that article by Sr. Vint for
identification in the record*

THE COURT: let it be received.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenor's Exhibit No. 21)
Q* Are you familiar with an article on a similar or related 

subject by Dr. James H. Sequeira, which was published in 
THE BRITISH MEDICAL JOURNAL, entitled ’’The Brain of the East



African native"? 1952, I believe, was the date of that
485

article.
A. Yes, I have a copy.
Q. Very quickly, if you will, read that table showing brain 

weights discovered by him.
A. Well, the table begins with Caucasian, and it's placed at

3380 grams; Mongoloid placed at 1,500; East African at 1,280; 
Negroid at 1,240; the Australoid at l,l80.

Itow , this table is obviously derived from several 
sources. I don’t know where he gets it.

Q. I will ask you if that table shows substantially a ten percent 
difference?

A. Yes.
Q,. —  In brain size,
A. It does.
Q, Now, I will ask you to look at his conclusion in the next

column, the next to the last paragraph. Have you read those ?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Would you agree with it?
A. You want me to read it and then —
Q. Yes. Read it. Read it aloud.
A. (Reading) "Educational authorities dealing with backward 

native races cannot afford to neglect the teachings of 
anthropology and psychology. If It is proved that the 
physical basis of ’mind’ in the East African differs from 
that of the European, it seams quite possible that efforts



486
to educate these backward races on European lines will 
prove ineffective and possibly disastrous. It has long been 
recognized among hi$ily civilized races that the educational 
methods applied to the normal child cannot be applied to 
the backward and defective.

Q. t>o you agree with that, from all the studies you are 
familiar with?
I would say that there is a very considerable element of 
truth in tills. There are many, many issues involved in this 
paragraph, however. Some of them are —
Veil, we are trying them here today.
Some of them are not scientific. Some of them relate to 
educational theories. What this man is saying is that 
based on the work of Vint, there are differences in cortical 
layers. These cortical layers he relates to ability. How, 
some of this 1 b a sequence or construction of steps and 
sequences which is not always easy to follow. There is an 
area of knowledge here that is not sufficiently developed to 
come to a one hundred percent conclusion. I would agree with 
the general tone, but I don*t say that the work it refers to 
is sufficient by itself to propose new theories of education
or to bolster a single theory of education and make it the 
final dogjna of the day. But in general I agree with this 
conclusion.

I may point out one thing, that this is an English M.D



i*87

writing about another English M. D. and having in mind perhaps 
a different educational system, and dealing now with African 
education and English education. These are not quite the 
same. And I don’t know what type of education they were 
giving in East Africa.

Q. He was more familiar with the traditions in Africa than you 
are, was he not?
That is correct.
Be had been there and made the study, had he not? 
That is ri$it.

Q And he came to the conclusion that you couldn’t educate them
together?

A. TMs is the opinion of this man. This did come from Africa,
yes.

Q. Do you have any reason to question it?
A. I don’t quest in it, but I find that I don’t neceasary- 

I don’t take issue with him if he disagrees with the
educational system in Kenya. I wonder, however, what else 
one brings to this subject before one cooes to a conclusion. 
Now, he brings Tint’s work in. This by itself would seem 
sufficient to ms to —

Q. 1 didn’t ask you that. Isn’t this in accord with general 
authorities in the field?

MR. EEELs Your Honor, I don't know that this is 
necessary. This is an expert witness; I don't think counsel 
should put words in his mouth. let him state the true facts



m

as he understands them. I object to him leading the witness.
SHE COURT* Be. Don’t lead the witness.
MR. OTTMftN* Well, 1 tender tills far the record and 

Into evidence as an authoritative sfcaieoant based upon toe 
studies made by others.

HR. BELL: I don’t know that he said it is. I couldn’t
understand what his explanation of it vas.

MR. PHJEMAI?: Well, I withdrew toe tafciiaony of this 
witness, then, with respect to it.

WITNESS: Did I make myself clear when I said that 
I cannot agree with an M. B. discussing the educational 
situation of Africa if he is deciding that upon one anthro­
pological study or histological study? This is taking too 
little and making too much. This is my opinion. But In 
the larger context with other evidence, then perhaps it 
might be permissible to say something on this subject.

Q. Then, Doctor, wo go to this. I see your point. Your point 
Is that based upon one study you wouldn’t draw such a 
conclusion?

A. Ho.
Q. All right. Based upon all the studies that have been made 

as to brain size and brain structure, what is your conclusion 
with respect to the educability of the Negro as compared with 
the Caucasian?

A. I would say that based upon these differences, we would find 
these physical traits, these anatomical traits, reflected



in intellectual function, which in turn would be reflected 
in ability to learn, which. Is, of course, the process 
we are encouraging in school. This would be the 
sequence as 1 see it.

Q. All right.
MR. PZTOIAHj We tender this for the record and into 

evidence.
WE Let it be received in evidence.

(Setae received in evidence and marked as Intervenor’s Exhibit No. 22) 
Q, Were you present yesterday when an excerpt was read from the 

record in the Brown case from the evidence of Dr. Redfield 
from the university of Chicago, which was to the general 
effect that no differences have been found, no substantial
differences have Over been found in the educability or the 
mental capacity between the Negroes and the whites, and that 
if such differences should ever be found they would not 
prove to be of consequence? Were you here?

A. I seem to remember that, yes. And I think I have read It 
before.

Q,. Are you familiar with the writings of Dr. Lewis S. D, Leakey, 
who deals with that subject in a work written in 1961, 
entitled !lThe Progress: and Evolution of Man in Africa"?

A. Yes, I have read that book. I am familiar with that work.
Q. Will you read, or do you consider that book authoritative?
A. Dp. Leakey is one of a group of three workers in South Africa



of international reputation, and I would regard him as a 
leading authority, yes, and I regard his work as being 
distinguished In quality.
What do you have before you of his writings on the subject 
testified to by Bedfield in the Brown case?
Leakey made several very interesting statements, but the one 
here of import Is as follows*
" As a social anthropologist, I naturally accept and even 

stress the fact that there are major differences, both 
mental and psychological, which separate the different 
races of mankin d. Indeed, I would be inclined to suggest 
that however great may be the physical differences between 
such races as the European and the ffegro, the mental and 
psychological differences are still greater.!:

That’s the close of that quotation.
Are you in agreement voth that statement?
Ifes. This would be in harmony with everything I have said.

MB. PITTMAN: You may question him.
THE COUHF; Any questions by the defendants?
Any cross examination?
MR. BELL: No, Your Honor. We move to strike the testimony

on the basis it is irrelevant, and we further move the Court 
to strike it on the basis of its weight as evidence in this 
case.

TEE COURT: Par the reasons heretofore stated, I will
overrule the motion,. . .(Witness excused)



MR. PITTMAN: Dr. Doors© of the University of North
Carolina testified in two cases previously. He is a 
biologist. At this time his wife is ill and in the 
hospital, yet he was coming anyway; but then his daughter 
was to remain with his wife and his son-in-law became ill 
and was put in the hospital; and he could not come.

But Dr. Hoy is here from the University of South 
Carolina. He has taught biology there a number of years.
He has heard and has read the testimony of Dr. George* 
and we would like, in the economy of time rather than to 
question Dr. Hoy independently, to have him take the 
stand and for us to read to him the questions asked Dr. 
George, and let him read the answers of Dr. George. In that 
vay, we can cut down and shorten the time. That has been 
done before.

MR. BETA: Counsel for plaintiffs are quite familiar
with Dr. George*s testimony, both in the Stell case 
and as it appeared in several other cases. Subject to the 
sane objection, we have no objection to permitting that 
testimony to be read into evidence. And with the further 
idea of economy of time, we would be quite willing to make
stipulation that the expertise of Dr. Hoy, which I would not

/

question, would support the statement of Dr. Georgs, without 
putting him on the stand and having Mm read all of this 
in the record.

THE COURT: 'Vbry well. I thick that would be good pro-



cedure, if It Is agreeable to you. As I understand It now,
you make the statement you make the same objection you male' •
to all the other, but other than that, that la your only 
ground of objection?

MR. EEIL: Yes, Your Honor. That Is correct.
THE C&JRTi Very well, I will let that be received In 

evidence, and, of course, If you desire to question Etc.
Hoy— ?

MR. HOT!AUt I believe, if Your Honor please, if we 
could present this in the record in question and answer 
form, Your Honor would probably find that type of presentation 
more effective, but that is a: matter for your Honor to decide 
•whether or not we shall hand it to you to read or whether or 
not It will be presented.

SHE COURT? In order to save time, I will read It, 
rather than have It read before me now. Reading It myself,
I get better results than hearing It read. That Is the 
testimony of Dr. George?

MR. PITTMAN: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Very veil.
MR. PITTMAN: And we would like also to introduce —

Well, Dr. George states his qualifications in this, so we 
tender for the record and in evidence the testimony of 
Dr. George as marked on Page 191, 19k, 195# 196, 197# 198,
199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 20k, 205, 206, 2 11, 212, 213, 2lk, 
215, 216 of the Transcript of Proceedings in the United



States District Court for the Southern District of Georgia, 
Savannah Division, which constitutes the relevant portions 
of the testimony of Dr. George of the University of north 
Carolina.

493

THE COURT: Very veil, let that be received in evidence 
and marked as an exhibit.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervener's Exhibit No. 25) 
MR. PITTMAN: May ve have about a five minute recess?

We now have shortened the record, and ve only have one more 
witness.

3HE COURT: Very veil, take about a ten minute recess. 
(Whereupon the court was recessed for ten minutes)

After Recess
HALFORD SNXDER WHITAKER, called as a witness and having been duly 
sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION
arm. it tM
Q. Dr. Whitaker, are you a medical doctor?
A. Yes, air.
Q. Would you 3tata, please, your qualifications as a medical 

doctor? And give your full name.
A. Halford Snyder Whitaker. As qualifications, I have a Doctor

of Medicine degree, and trained in pediatrics, certified
< & .. . 0  -Vk..' _ • k - V ,  l. k- r •as a specialist in pediatrics.
Q. You are a board-qualified pediatrician?



m
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Go ahead.
A. And trained in neurology and EEG, electroencephalogram .

I®. m'JMAWi Your Honor, ve tender into the record 
tiie sheet containing the qualifications and training and 
experience, and the publications by Dr. Whitaker,

SHE COURT* let them be received in evidence.
( . azac received in evidence and marked as Intervenes?1 s Exhibit No . 24)
Q. Eft*. Whitaker, what is neurology?
A. Neurology is the study of the brain and its functions, both 

at the bedside and as a basic discipline of biology.
Q* Since your graduation from medical school and your

internship and since your residency in pediatrics, how many 
years have you had in child neurology?

A. Threej two in neurology and one in pediatric neurology.
Q. Where are you now located?
A. I am on the faculty of the Bowman Gray School of Medicine 

in North Carolina,
Q. On the faculty?
A, Yes.
Q. How old —  Before we get into the detailed questions, 

how old is the method of study of the brain by electAcity, 
electric study of the brain? How old is that system?

A. Well, the first signals from an animal brain vê e picked up 
about in 1879• It has been used on humans since the late



1950'b, and is used every day in hospitals now, since the 
second world war.

Q.. Doctor, we have been studying, the brains of adults, but the 
ones involved in this case are children, school children<,

And I will ask you if there is any relation between 
the brain sise of children and the intelligence in children?

495

A. This has been studied, and actually there is a better 
correlation between estimation of this cranial capacity 
and intelligence in six year old school children than there 
is in these adult studies.
Wow, when you say "better correlation," do you rasan that the 
differences are greater In a six year old school child than
they are in adults?

A. These were done on English school children, all white, and 
they showed the greater the cranial capacity, the greater 
the intelligence, and it was measured by several test3.

Q. Are you in agreement with those studies?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are there any ways to test the working of the brain other than 

intelligence and sociological testing that we have shown in 
the trial of this case?

A. Well, a more direct way, it gives a little different
information, is this electroencephalogram, which I would 
be more interested in, and this Is a way like the electro­
cardiogram which we are familiar with.

Q. The electrocardiogram is for the heart? And the



496

electroencephalogram Is for toe brain?
A* Yes, sir. There’s toe difference. And In this case, toe 

vires are applied over the head and electricity given off 
by toe brain, —  the brain functions as an electric organ —  
these signals are then carried into a machine where they 
are amplified a million times, and they write out a record, 
and this record makes a different pattern, and these can
be either analysed by another machine or ve can just by 
direct inspection look at them and compare them with the 
patterns that have been worked out several years ago by 
Gibbs at Harvard and in his 25 or 50 years since. This shows 
normal and abnormal patterns.
How, this is purely for demonstration, and not for evidence 
in this case, but did you not hand me some samples of tracings
made by the electroencephalograph?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you just take one or two of these and explain for the 

record how that machine records these impulses from the
brain.

A. These are examples showing the paper which runs through 
toe machine itself. Bie recording, of courge, is done 
without toe benefit of anyone between toe patient and the 
machine, and the machine records this directly.

This shows a child, in a somewhat irregular behavior 
of the waves and these big waves that you see here.



497

And this then shows an adult pattern, as you can 
see, shows a little more regular and faster and smaller 
waves running across the page. And when the eyes are 
opened, all this stops.

MR. PITTMAN: I believe I will identify the first one for
the record.

THE COURT: Very well.
MR. PITTMAN: We tender It for identification and part 

of the record. That is a sample of a child’s brain study.
THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervener’s Exhibit No. 25)
Q. Now, the next one you have in your hand is a sample of 

a study of an adult brain?
A. Yea, sir. This one I just showed you.
Q. Are you through illustrating with this to the Court?
A. Yes•

MR. PITTMAN: I offer this latter study of an adult
brain for Identification and for the record.

THE COURT: let it be received in evidence.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenor’s Exhibit No 26)
Q. Now, in making those recordings, what enters into it? Is 

that one voluntarily or involuntarily, or does the one who 
Is doing the recording have any effect upon what those 
papers show?

A. The patients* you might say, make their awn recordings, and 
these are just electrical signals from the different parts of



the brain, picked up by the machine, magnified and 
written down.
Have standards of normal patterns been worked out over the 
last few years so that that gives a reliable indication 
of certain phenomena?
Standards have been worked out and are published, and there 
is an international classification of these that we all use. 
And these can be done by interpretation of the record, by 
only counting the number of each type of wave and writing 
than down, and comparing it with the standard.
Are there any studies which have compared the white and Negro 
brains by the methods that you speak of or by electrophysio­
logy?
Not in the U. S. 'Riere are some studies on African natives 
and African white persons, and these are, one, by the doctors 
of the French Array, some of whom were electroencephalograjherB,, 
Are you familiar with that article, or have you studied it?
Yes, sir.
Do you have a copy of that article in French?
Yes.
It was published originally in French, was it not?
Yes.
Can you read French?
Yes, sir. I have to.
Did you translate that article from French to English?
I did for myself; I didn’t make any translation.



Q» Do you have a copy of a translation?
A. Yes.
Q,. Is that translation correct?
A* It agrees with the original.
Q« Go ahead with your testimony about that study.
A. Well, these findings in this study, which was done with 

standard technique and the standard in the international 
classifications, and some of them were interpreted with the 
electronic analyzer —  that is, the doctor didn’t interpret 
them.

On the natives , on the blacks in Africa, shows one-third 
of them had none of this normal adult rhythm that we show 
Is the normal that we usually expect.

Q. Now, who were these Africans that were being tested that 
the article reports on?

A. These were some troops In the French Army. ’They were
natives who had been taken into the Army, screened for the 
absence of nervous system disease, of course, and any 
evidence of severe head trauma, anything that might have 
influenced the record. These hundred soldiers had been 
in the Amy several years and had been taken to France, 
and this is where they happened to be when the study was 
made, in Marseille, France. They had no evidence of 
central nervous system disease, and the study was made 
just as a comparison.

Q. Then you state to the Court what were the findings.



A. Well, they say one-third of them did not show the normal 
alpha ryhthm that ve see as expected in the adults,

Q* Will you explain what the alpha rhythm is? And you mi$it 
point to one in one of these exhibits so that the Court 
can better understand it.

A. This is a normal adult record (indicating) showing thin 
alpha waves all across the record and disappearing when 
the eyes are opened to come back when the eyes are 
closed.

Q. Explain to the Court what you mean by when the *yes are 
opened and when the eyes are closed, the mechanics of it

,7 '• Jii* i \«

when testing.
A. During this type of recording, we have the patient lying 

undisturbed, with his eyes closed. At times during the 
recording we have him open his eyes, and then close them. 
Very rarely the alpha wave will persist. Ihey nearly 
always go away when the eyes are open. This is supposed 
to be because the tension of the eyes is arrested atthat 
time. Otherwise, the alpha waves persist through the 
record. Bits is the adult pattern. As we said, the child 
does not have this but has a much slower and more irregular 
record.

Q. Now, the normal white subject, when his eyes are closed, 
what do those lines show? Are they rhythmic?

A. Bils Is a rhythm that runs all across the record in the 
channels that are connected to the back of the head.

500



Q. All right, When the eyes are opened, then what do those 
lines reveal?

A. Well, when the eyes are open, the pattern goes away. Oke 
patient is no longer resting alert with his eyes closed.
It has been seen in a few psychiatric subjects —  and this 
is reported in the Standards book on EEG, in Htn. & Parke, 
it*s called —  there are some of these psychiatric subjects 
whose alpha will go right on when their eyes are open, 
and this ie supposed to mean a lack of visual imagery, and 
it*s not the usual abstract capacity that other people have.

Q. What is the difference between the recordings for those 
100 African troppers and the nomal recordings of the 
group of whites? I believe that appears on page 116 of 
your translation —  I mean on page 16,

A. She things that were found, the most striking is that when 
the eyes are open, the alpha waves rarely disappear) as I Say, 
this does happen in white people rarely, that they will 
persist, but the opposite was true in these troops in that 
the alpha wave nearly always went right on,

I think the way it was said in the conclusions of the 
author was, the author that did this study, it said*

stoppage reaction is rarely complete, some tires 
entirely absent.*

As I said, this is exactly the opposite to the white
normal.



502
Q. Now, what were the conclusions of this study?
A, Well, to quote the author, he sayss

M..We find ourselves in the presence of an accumula­
tion of facts, not very detailed, but very expressive in 
their raw nature.”

lie calls attention to the fact that this would 
be, except for this business of the alpha persisting, 
which he says there can be no explanation for, if it occurred 
in all the white persons, —  except for this complete 
difference, he says that the other chcaracteristics in 
these tracings could be explained as immaturity, because 
this sort of record is seen in very young children,
Ihere is a lot of the slow waves, the regular slowing; 
he found this in most of these tracings, and he even found 
what we call delta waves, which are never present in the 
adult white tracings.

Q.. Would it be accurate or inaccurate to say that this 
study reveals evidence of inraaturity or childishness 
in a third of the subjects studied?

A. well, I would modify that to say that two-thirds of than 
showed much more alpha than would be seen in the normal 
adult tracing that we are used to seeing here in the white 
race. Otherwise, this statement would be true. This still 
does not explain the complete difference in alpha blocking 
which he can have no explanation for; it*s just different 
In these troops tested than in any of the studies that have



503

been done on the white race.
Q. I ask you this* Are the slow delta waves which were found 

In the examination of those Africans —  not all of them, but 
a large portion of them —  are those ever seen in white 
people except during childhood?

A. Ho.
Q. How, I read you from page 16, and ask you if that finding is 

a correct finding in the French text which you translated: 
"In taking account of the nouns established for the

white race in important statistical studies to which we
shall now return, we found only 42$ of the tracings in 
accord with the established criteria."

Is that rî it? Page 16 of the translation.
Well, it is true that he found only 42 percent of the tracings 
in accord with the established criteria, but he takes into 
account that seme of these 42 would be abnormal in the
normal adult white, but they still wouldn’t be completely 
normal .tracings.

Q. How, on page 21 I read to you:
"This system of Interpretation of the electrical 

details of the brain of subjects of the Hegro race would 
bring biological confirmation to the work of psychiatric 
and psychological specialists on the black continent, who 
have already known for a long time a psychological immaturity 
with a tendency toward paroxysmal manifestations in the case



of the forest Negro."
A, What page is that on?
Q. Page 21. Is that a correct interpretation or, rather, 

translation, land la that conclusion in accordance vith 
your opinion as a specialist?

A* Yes *
MR* PUTMAN: We tender, if Your Honor please, for the 

record and for admission in evidence both the article 
in the original French and the translation. The article 
la entitled "introduction to the Study of the Electrophysiology 
of the African Negro," by P, Gailals and G. Miletto.

THE COURT: Let it be marked.and received in evidence.
MR. EEIL: Your H>nor, let us enter a special objection 

for all these studies of the African Negro. I have great 
difficulty seeing the relevancy of these studies fen the 
African to the American Negro in Mississippi.

THE COURT: I will adhere to the ruling heretofore
made and overrule the objection.

MR. PITTMAN: If Your Honor please, I vould suggest a
number 27-A and 27-B.

THE COURT: Very well.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenes Exhibits
No. 27-A and 27-B, respectively)
Q. So 16 it or not true, Doctor, that this study shows a 

distinct and confirmed difference in the physiology of the 
brain?



Q. Is there anything further you wish to state, anything 
I have failed to ask you about in connection with the 

electrical studies?
A. Ports of this have been tested and confirmed, and I 

apologize that there are no studies I know of in the 
United States.

Q. And that is the only study you know of in the world, of the 
Negro brain as compared with the white?

A. Well, that and the second study done in another part of 
Africa, and this was reported on by the United Nations 
in one of their reports, this same study. These are the 
only ones I know of.

Q. And are all of those studies in accord to the effect that 
the electrophysiology of the Negro brain is different from 
that of the white brain?

A. Yes.
MR. PITTMAN: That is all.
THE COURT: Any questions by the defendants?

m. CANKADA.: No, sir.
BKE COURT: Any cross examination?
MR. BELL: No cross examination, Your Honor, and the

same motion to 3trike the testimony.
THE COURT: For the reasons heretofore stated, I will

overrule the motion.
MR. CANNADA: May we say, on behalf of the defendants,



506
we would adopt for the defendants the testimony of the 
Interveners.

THE COURT* Yes, sir.
(Witness excused)

THE COURT* Do you rest?
MR. PITTMAN* We rest. The intervenors rest.
THE COURT: I believe all the defendants have now

rested. Is that correct.
MR. CANNADA.: Yes, sir.
THE COURT* Any rebuttal?
MR. HELL* Yes, 3ir. We would, of course, renew our 

motion to stries from consideration in the record all the 
testimony of the intervenors for the reasons that we 
gave; and in rebuttal to the testimony given in the main 
by defendants —  although I guess the Court can consider 
this for whatever relevancy it has throughout the 
consideration of this case —  plaintiffs offer In rebuttal 
as an exhibit to their case a part of the evidence admitted 
in the case of the United States of America vs. State of
Mississippi, Civil Action No. 5312* the record In this 
court, Southern District of Mississippi! that part of the 
evidence which is a comparison of the education of Negro and 
white children, white persons, in Mississippi, from IB90 

until 1965.
New, this data was gathered by the United States Govern­

ment in response to interrogatories of certain of the



507
defendants for the State of Mississippi. Ihe data was 
gathered from official state reports. It is fairly 
lengthy, but I would, as a part of my motion to have 
it admitted, like to point out setae of the highlights 
of the information that it contains.

On page 2 of the report, it points out that white 
public school teachers in Mississippi were and are more
highly trained than Negro teachers."

It points out further that this is during this whole 
period of the study from 1890 to the present. It points 
out moreover that white public school teachers in Mississippi 
were and are more highly paid than Negro school teachers.

As Just one example of a lot of the figures it gives, 
in 1949-1950 white school teachers averaged $1,805*69 per 
year, and Negro teachers averaged $710.56 per year.

More white teachers are provided for white child in
attendance than for Negro child in attendance in the public 
schools of Mississippi.

In 1951-52 school year the ratio for whites in white 
schools was 25 students for each teacher. During the 
same period, the ratio was for Negroes 54 students for 
each teacher.

In 1961-62 the ratio for whites was still 25 pupils
for each teacher, and for Negroes it had dropped down only 
to 28.5 pupils for each teacher.

MR. WASOTB: Pardon me. I want to object to this. It



508

is clearly inadmissible. Wb don’t knew 'who assembled 
this data. We have no opportunity to cross examine, and 
counsel is merely reading into the record certain statistics 
alleged to have been obtained by some person from sons 
report, and he will later cite from the record those 
statistics as though it were evidence. We don't think 
this ban any place in this record. He is reading what are 
alleged to be findings by some unknown person in some other 
lawsuit.

MR. HELL: I think, if counsel was listening, I
pointed out that what Ijm reading is part of the record in 
a case which was heard in this court, and on that basis 
alone the court Gould take Judicial notice of it.

But, moreover, I pointed out that the records were 
compiled by the United States Government in answer to 
interrogatories posed by officials of the State of 
Mississippi in all of the material and all of it set 
forth here is taken from state reports by state officials
of the State of Mississippi.

Wow, we have gone through here since Monday, almost 
three full days of testimony, all of which has been 
adopted by the defendants, aimed at showing that Negroes 
are inferior, are less educable, have lower scholastic 
achievement, and in all other manner are greatly inferior 
to white pupils in Mississippi, and therefore, a classifi­
cation based on race, which is the way they are operating



their schools, is Justified under the Constitution,
I am pointing out in sole rebuttal, and I think 

I am entitled to a few minutes after they have taken a 
few days, one exhibit which I think throws more light 
chi inequality between Negro and white pupils than all 
of the information that they have shown.

THE COURT* Of course, the Court takes judicial 
knowledge of its own record and will take judicial knowledge 
of such record, as it is required to take. However, unless 
it was offered in evidence, as you are doing now, X doubt 
if testimony taken would be considered as part of the record 
of which judicial knowledge would be taken.

But at any rate, I will let the offer be made and 
be a part of the record here in this court in another
case --  to which I assume these parties in this
case were not parties to that suit? What was the style 
of that?

MR. HELL: I think that was the United States versus
State of Mississippi. I don't know the exact —  Well, to 
the extent that the attorney-general's office is represen­
ting the school board in accordance with state statute, 
then to that extent the parties would be the same. But 
I don't think that similar parties —  Similar parties is 
not one of the prerequisites.

THE COURT* I will permit you to make the offer and



call the attention of the Court to the high spots, and I 
will reserve i*uling upon the objections of the defendant 
as to whether or not it is admissible, because I am not sure 
whether that can be admitted in that form or not.

So I reserve ruling upon that objection.
ME. CANNADA: Is he permitted to continue to read his

resume of what the report shows, which we have never seen 
and had no opportunity to cross examine on?

THE COUHT: Of course, the record, you are offering—
MR. CANNADA: We have never seen it.
THE COURT: Let counsel opposite see that.
MR. BELL: All right. We haven*t seen a great deal

of some of the latter testimony and we made no similar objec­
tion. Now, I would like to, if I may, if this is going to 
be so much problem, continue my resume and then offer this 
in evidence and let them see it for whatever purposes they 
want, and perhaps after the luncheon break they can make any 
further objection to it that they may see fit.

MR. WATKINS: Your Honor, may I ask a question? I’m
not too familiar with the record, but, Counsel, isn't it 
a fact that the Court in that case from which that was taken 
refused to consider the answers to those interrogatories 
you are reeding as evidence , and disregarded it in that 
lawsuit?

MR. BELL: I'm not certain that that is so. I am certain



511
the ease is presently pending on appeal before the TJ. S. 
Supreme Court.

1©. WATKINS: Do you know whether or not the Court
that heard that case considered that as evidence in the 
case?

MR. BELL: Now, I'm not going to answer these-
questions.

SHE COURT: The record will show —
MR. CANNADA: fha other question I would like to ask

is, we are here dealing with the students of the Jackson 
Municipal Separate School District, —

MR. BELL: I'm going to get to that if they will
give me the courtesy —

MR. CANNADA: —  and insofar as I have heard, he is
talking about a report we have never seen.

THE COURT: let me see what you are offering.
(Same is handed to Court)
THE COURT: I see here "Answers to Interrogatories of

State of Mississippi; Mrs. Pauline Easley, Circuit Clerk 
and Registrar of Claiborne County; J. W. Smith, Circuit 
Clerk and Registrar of Coahoma County; T. E. Wiggins, 
Circuit Clerk and Registrar of Lowndes County."

Iiow, Coahoma County and Lowndes County are not in this 
district.

MR. BELL: I believe that the United StatesGoverament
in that voting suit, which is the type of suit it was, had



512

Joined all of the counties, if I'm not mistaken, as 
party defendants, and these particular party defendants had 
requested interrogatories and asked the United States Govern­
ment to explain allegations in the complaint to the effect 
that the educational opportunities provided Negro children 
in the State of Mississippi were g r e a t ly  inferior to the 
educational opportunities provided white children in the 
State of Mississippi. Now, in response to those 
interrogatories, the Government compiled this document,
compiled It completely from official state reports, reportsstateof the superintendents of the/educational system, reports 
of the state body to the legislature biannual reports, 
a 20-year study and various other studies made by officials 
of the State of Mississippi.

IKE COURT: Biia document that you have handed ms
which you propose to offer in evidence, is tills an exact 
copy of the answers to the interrogatories?

MR. HELL: I believe it is, Tour' Honor, though I imagine
that can be checked. I received it from an agent of the
United States Government. Although I didn't think it would

\be necessary to have the seal raari on, I certainly can 
get that without difficulty, or it can be checked with the 
original in the clerk's office.

THE COURT: I think the interrogatories ought to be,
because this looks like a lot of argument and stuff here



rather than copy.
MR, HELL: Ho, Your Honor, It is all factual material*
THE COURT: In direct answers?
JMR. HELL: mat's right, me question was —  There

was a series of interrogatories , and I believe most of this 
data was in in answer to one particular interrogatory, 
which requested the plaintiff, the United States Government, 
to explain an allegation in the complaint to the effect that 
Negro educational opportunities in Mississippi were inferior 
to the educational opportunities provided for white children. 
How, all of the materials there 13 not argument, but the 
support for the allegation.

rrffF. COURT* And Is the language of the answer?
MR. BEIL: And is the language of the —  Most of it is

quotes or statistical quotes.
MR, shakos: Have you examined that statement to verify it?
MR. BEIL: What statement?
THE COURT: Just a minute, Gentlemen. One at a time.
I t-Mnir he ought to be able to verify that these are 

direct answers. I certainly don't know, and It’s not certi­
fied to by the cleric of the Court; but I will let you offer 
it and, of course, you can offer it and it will be come a 
part of the record whether it is competent or not; but I 
will exclude it just on statements here because I could 
not take judicial notice of the records of the Northern



District of Mississippi because they are not available 
to me. Hern, the Court will take judicial knowledge of any 
record in Its own district because they are available to 
the Court for whatever they may be worth.

So I think you should just offer them in evidence 
and —

MR. BELL; Your Honor, I should like to —  I would 
like to have the courtesy that I extended to counsel for 
defendants and counsel for interveners during the period 
since about eleven o’clock on Monday morning when we 
rested our case, and that is to at least permit me to 
make my offer on this proof, and at the conclusion of it 
then hear the various objections. I think I am entitled 
to that.

SHE COURT; Yes, you are ehtltled to that, and I am 
going to let you do that.

I am going to let him epitomise what that —
MR. PITTMAN: If Your Honor please, I’d like to make

a statement in behalf of the intervenors.
MR. BELL; Your Honor, I have been interrupted in the 

course of this thing.
2HE CCORT: Well, they are entitled to be heard, and the; 

I will hear you.
I©. PITTMAN: We object to the admission of any evidence

or any material derived from any case in which the inter­
venors were not parties and with which they were not



concerned and In which they had no opportunity to present 
contrary facts or evidence of any kind. We insist that 
under the low we are only bound in cases where the same 
parties where the evidence was offered, where we were 
parties, or where we were represented by parties. And in
the matter he speaks of, we were not represented directly

■
- or indirectly, and had no opportunity to consider or refute 
any of the material in itj so we think now it will be 
incompetent as far as the Interveners are concerned.

TEES COURT: Very well. let tie objection be noted, and 
I will reserve ruling on it.

Of course, the statement he is reading into the record 
now, if there is a variance from anything in the exhibit —  
if the exhibit should be received in evidence, the exhibit 
will control, and the balance of the statement would be 
disregarded. He is simply making this as an offer?rather 
than reading the testimony he is offering at this tire, he 
is epitomizing the parts he euipects or desires to call 
attention to.

You may proceed,
MR* BELL: Blank you, Yoir Honor.
As I was indicating, during this whole period of the 

statistics and other reports that have been compiled, more 
money was spent for tiiênŝ I'uĉ on of white children in..



the State of Mississippi than for Negro children.
In 1929-1930 the record indicates that an average of $40.42 
was spent for each white child, while $7*45 was spent for the 
education of each Negro child.

By 1956-57 that figure had increased to $128.50 per 
white child, and had increased for the Negro child to 
$78.70.

By 1960-61 the figure for the white children was an 
average of $173*42| for Negroes, $117.10.

Now, with particular reference to the defendants 
in this case, the exhibit shows at pages 8 to 10 that during 
the year 1961-62 that the defendants boards here spent in 
the education of each child above the state wiaimnm program* 
The Jackson board, first of all, for white children,
$149.64, and for Negro children, $106.37; for the Leake 
County board, that figure was above the state minimum for 
the white children, $48.85, and for Negro children, $17.37. 
For the Biloxi Separate School District, the figure was for 
the same period, 1961-62, for white children $128.92, and 
for Negro children, $86.25.

Now, the figures here give the breakdown for every 
school district in Mississippi, and I certainly voa1! try 
to read them all, but other typical ones include Clarksdale



and Coahoma County school district, where the Court can 
take Judicial notice where school desegregation suits 
have been filed: for toe Claries dale Separate School 
District, the figure for 1961-62 was $146.06 for toe white 
children, and $25.07 for Negroes. For Coahoma County School 
District, the figure was $15903 for each white child, and 
for each Negro child, $12.74.

Just a few other examples: From Madison County, our
neighboring county here, the figure was $171.24 for the white 
children, while for Negroes it was per child $405.

For neighboring Rankin County, we have for white 
children, $72.71 per child, and for Negro children, $14.78, 
per child.

And one more, Yazoo County, located about 50 miles 
away, for each white child above toe minimum, it was $245.55# 
for each white child, and for Negroes for each child, $2.92.

The report points out at pages 11 to 14 that in 1954-55 
every school district in Mississippi spent more money to 
educate white children than it did for Negro children.
IXiring that period toe Jackson school board, according to 
the figures given here, spent $217.00 for the education of each 

white pupil and $157*00 for toe education of each Negro pupil.
The Leake County board spent $169 for the education of each 
white pupil, and $104 for the education of each Negro.
The Biloxi school board Bpent $191 for the education of each



white pupil, and $141 for the education of each Negro.
The county average in county school boards during this 

period throughout the state was $l6l for each white child, 
and $87 for each Negro.

For special or separate school districts in the amount of 
money, it was generally a little more. The average was, 
throû iout the state, $181 for each white child, and $106 
for each Negro child.

On page 14, the report taken from official state 
documents indicates that white children have generally 
longer school terns than Negroes throughout the State of 
Mississippi, They give the data brining up to date to 
the 196l~62 situation, which showed that in that period 
only 2 white school districts had school terns of eig <t 
months, while during the same period 103 Negro school 
districts had school terms of eigit months. During the 
same period 637 white school districts enjoyed full nine- 
month school terras. During that same period only 399 Negro 
school districts enjoyed full nine-month school terms.

On page 15 of the report, it shows that in 1910 
Mississippi decided that consolidation of rural schools 
would improve education for children, and the report 
on that indicates the several reasons the determination 
to consolidate was made —  Indicated that if the 
teacher was responsible for only one or at the most two



519
grades, It would be easier to secure good teachers with 
professional training. It was an economy toconsolidate the 
sohools. "Pupils are more interested in school and there­
fore attend more frequently and remain in school and go on to 
high school. The entire curriculum can be enriched. The 
school building will be much superior. Consolidation offers 
the bases for the solution of more of the rural school 
problems than anything that has yet been offered."

Based on these findings, consolidation of the Mississippi 
schools began in 1910. However, between 1910 end 1950, 
while many white school districts were consolidated, no 
Negro school district was consolidated during that period. 
Therefore, as of 1951# there were 959 consolidated white 
school districts, and 7̂ 9 unconsolidated white school dis­
tricts at that stage. During the same period there were 
only 16 consolidated Negro school districts, and 3,484 
unconsolidated Negro school districts. The report points 
out that the consolidation of Negro schools did not really 
get underway until after the Brown decision in 1954, forty 
years after consolidation of white schools.

On pages 16 and 17 of the report, it points out that at 
all times in Mississippi "secondary education has been made 
available to more white children than Negro children," even 
though there have always been more Negro children than 
white children of school age. And the report goes on to give



the breakdown In statistics supporting that statement.
On page 18 the report Indicates, giving statistics in 

support, that at all times "more white high schools than 
Negro high schools"have been accredited by either the 
State of Mississippi or by regional accrediting associ­
ations .

On pages 20-23 of the report there are breakdowns 
indicating the wide variation in college training available 
to whites and Negroes In Mississippi,

On page 24-we offer that particularly with reference to 
the fact that school teachers who have to have the training 
generally get it within the state, then come, return to either 
Negro or white school.

On page 24 of the report it points out that officers 
of the state government have recognized that the public 
educational facilities provided for Negroes were Inferior to 
those provided for whites. Now, it gives first of all a 
number of quotes from various governors of the State of 
Mississippi concerning education, and I certainly won’t try 
to read them all. And I think It does show an improvement 
from the early quote by Governor Vardsman back in 1907 when 
he is reported to have said, "Here is what I promised to 
do. I said if you elect me Governor and elect a legislature 
in sympathy with me that I would submit to the people of 
Mississippi an amendment to the State Constitution which 
would control the distribution of a public school fund so



521
as to stop the useless expenditure in the black 
counties.".. •

THE COURTS Let me ask you there about that now.
Is that an answer by these registrars?
MR. BELL: No, Your Honor. I was confused on that

point. The registrars didn’t give the answers. The regis­
trars filed the interrogatories, and the Government, in 
answer to the registrars’ Interrogatories, provided these
answers, but they provided them from--

THE COURT: Well, I’m going to sustain the objection
to the introduction of that, because I was admitting it 
upon the theory of a statement against interest. Those 
are self-serving declarations*

MR. BELL: They are not self-serving declarations,
Your Honor, when they are made by officials of the State 
of Mississippi. If anything, they are declarations against 
interest, at least in this regard.

THE COURT: As I understand, the State of Mississippi
didn't give that information.

MR. BELL: But the information that was given, Your
Honor, is taken from official reports of the State of 
Mississippi.

THE COURT: I’d like to see that report where It is
stated. Anyway, that wouldn’t be competent. I kn ew 
Governor Vardaman personally. He was campaigning, and that’s



vhat he was doing in the campaign.
MR. HHXLl Well, let me strike the statement of 

Governor Vordaman -which tends to be a campaign statement 
and go along to another statement, Your Honor, which 
was the only other one I was going to mention.

THE CCXJRTj I believe I will sustain the objection 
to that document in the form it is. I would like to see 
those records of which I could take Judicial notice, rather 
than to have a copy that is prepared by someone other than 
the official custodian of the records. Now, if that had 
been certified to by the clerk of the court, then, of course, 
under that doctrine a certificate would certify to its 
accuracy.

MR. BELL: Well, Your Honor, let me interrupt, if I
may.

I wasnft basing the admissibility of' this solely on 
the fact that It was admitted in another case. I think that 
was a certainly firm basis, and if you prefer it on there, there 
would certainly be no difficulty in getting the clerk within 
a very few minutes, I‘m sure, unless the record has already 
been sent up on appeal, to have her certify that this is a 
true copy of the document that was Hied. Now, it certainly 
purports to be a true copy from the face of it, I'm sure 
you will admit. 'Moreover, you have the word of counsel 
and I have certainly, in all of the years I've been coming



down here, and I pride myself on being a member of this 
court, and I soy to the Court that it is a true and 
correct document of a part of a record of a case in this 
court. Now, ve have not, during all these few days, 
required any of these books, this information, or at least 
these graphs which have been shown to the Court, to be 
certified in any such fashion. We assumed that because 
these attorneys who are members of this bar had indicated 
that they were what they were, that that was good enough. 
Now, I can’t see why we should have to be held to a higher 
standard, Your Honor.

THE COORTs Because I'm not satisfied, when you start 
quoting there from political speeches, that — -

MR. HELL: —  It was a statement to the legislature,
Your Honor; not a political speech.

Let me return to the statistics and let me ask you to 
reserve the decision until I finish.

THE COURT: All right, you can do that.
MR. WATKINS: Your Honor, before he coranences, let

me point out once more that these are statements of some 
person with the United States, purported to have been lifted 
from the public records of Mississippi. Now, we are not 
complaining because ve don't think that is what is reflected 
in the records of that lawsuit, but we complain, as we would 
have in that lawsuit if there had been public facts alleged



524
to have been produced by the United States without 
certifloation of the facts as produced; and we think 
the record is being cluttered by a fom of evidence that 
is not proper here, would not even have been proper in the 
case in which it was offered, and it is my advice from the 
attorney-general's office that it was ruled incompetent 
in that case for the very reason I am stating. And I 
don't think we ought to clutter the record with alleged 
facts found by the United States --

THE COURT: Well, I believe he's nearly through, aren't
you?

MR. HELL: I am, Your Honor. May I continue?
Nov, every two years the State Superintendent of 

Public Education in Mississippi reports to the Mississippi 
Legislature. Following are excerpts from some of the 
reports, many of which are set out in fairly good detail 
here. These reports indicate that the public education 
for Negroes has been inferior to that provided for whites.

Now, an early report, at page 25 and 26 of the exhibit, 
is quoted, as follows:

"in many counties, particularly in rural areas, Negro 
children are forced to attend school in mere shacks or in 
church houses.. .Consolidation has done away with practically 
all of the one and two-teacher schools. In fact, this 
year' there are lass than ten percent of the white children



of the rural districts attending those old type schools.
The other ninety percent have the advantage of modem hjgi 
schools, in many of which, not only the college preparatory 
course is given but also work in vocational agriculture, 
home economics and business training..."

How, this was taken from the Biennial Report 1929-31# page 
11 of that report.

Another report indicated that 85 percent of all colored 
children enrolled in school were in open country rural schools, 
the great majority of which were of the one and two teacher 
type so common in Mississippi in both races prior to 1910*

That statement was taken from a document titled 
*Knm*r YEAEB OP PROGRESS 1910-1950 AHD A BIENNIAL SURVEY" 
SCH01A3TIC YEARS 1929-50 AND 1950-51 OF PUBLIC EDUCATION IN 
MISSISSIPPI, issued by V. F. Bond, State Superintendent of 
Education.

Now, from the same report by V. F. Bond, he states 
at page 90s

"The quality of work done in the school room by the 
majority of Negro teachers would not rank very high when 
measured by any acceptable minimum known to the leader's 
in educational thoû it. There is a growing sentiment among 
the white people and the Negroes in Mississippi favorable to 
improvement in school plants, in the training of Negro 
teachers which will guarantee a better quality of work in



the schoolrooms for the Negro race."
At Page 28 from the Biennial Report to the State 

Legislature of 1955-55* the report says:
"There is also dire need for school furniture and 

teaching materials - comfortable seating facilities, 
stoves, blackboards, erasers, crayon, supplementary reading 
materials, maps, flash cards, and charts.

"in many of the 5*765 colored schools of the state 
there is not a decent specimen of any one of the above- 
mentioned items. In hundreds of rural schools there are 
just four blank, unpainted vails, a fev old rickety benches, 
an old stove proppped up on brickbats, and two or three 
boards nailed together and painted black for a blackboard.
In many cases, this sonstitutes the sum total of the furni­
ture and teaching equipment."

Now, the next biennial report, for 1955-57* Indicates 
that "high school advantages for Negroes in Mississippi 
are very meager. Ninety-four percent of the educable Negro 
population of high school age Is not in school. .. .'There 
are twenty-eight counties in Mississippi which do not have 
any recognized high school facilities for Negroes. Fifteen 
counties make absolutely no provision whatever for high 
school training of Negro children. Of the fifty-four regog- 
nlzed four-year high schools for Negroes, fifteen are 
privately owned and supported. ** Only eighteen. Negro high 
schools in Mississippi..." ---



527
THE COURT: I believe, Mr, Bell, that is all I care

to hear from that. You may offer it and let It be 
marked as an exhibit. And I sustain the objection to it 
and will exclude it from consideration in reaching a 
judgment in this case for more reasons than one.

I think it is not between the parties that are in this
litigation, and they are not bound by it extra Judiciary.
It would have to be proven by witnesses because there is 
a lot of material in there that is so far back that—

MR. BELL: Veil, I was going to bring it up to date,
Your Hobor, if you will give me the minimum of the time 
tiiat the defendants have had. I was going to bring that 
ri$it up to date and show that there has been an improvement 
but that there was an admission by the state legislators 
up to the present day that there was still a lot of work 
to be done before the Negro schools in the State of Mississippi 
are on a per with the white schools. I was going to bring 
it up to date.

Not, we've gone clear back to dark Africa to show that 
Negroes are inferior.

THE COURT: Yes, but that was by competent evidence, 
and I don't think this is competent. If you had competent 
evidence here to establish those facts where it would be 
subject to cross examination by the attorneys in this case 
who are conducting the trial of this case and were not 
connected -- that is all the intervenors; none of them



were connected with that case, and none of the other 
defendants were connected with those cases. So It 13 not 
admissible in evidence.

Now, part of it would be competent testimony if a 
witness were here subject to cross examination, but the 
document In Its present form Is not competent, In ray 
Judgment, and for that reason I will sustal n the objection; 
but, of course, it will go into the record, and if I am 
wrong about it, then it would be erroneous and the courts 
would probably reverse any judgment that I might render 
in the case, or they might, considering the record Itself, 
rnigat conclude that whatever Judgment I rule would be

correct regardless of whether that was competent or 
not competent.

Now, you have your record complete by offering it in 
evidence, and since I am going to exclude it for the reasons 
I have stated, it is not necessary for you to take up any 
more time reading that. So I sustain the objection to it.

MR. BELLt Could I make a further statement, Your Honor?
THE COURTt Yes.
MR. BELL: When we returned with this case from the 

Fifth Circuit and the motion to intervene was made, and the 
plaintiffs objected to such intervention on the basis that 
it was a mere attempt to relitigate the issues that had 
already been settled in the Brown decision by the United



States Supreme Court, and moreover that subsequent similarbyefforts had been knocked out either /the district courts or 
by the Fifth Circuit in a number of cases, the Court pointed 
out that nevertheless the interveners were entitled to make 
their record.

How, one of the bases for objection to permitting that 
record to be made, notwithstanding the unlikelihood that 
the position could be sustained, was that we had to 
face the fact that Mississippi not accidentally was the 
last of the states to initiate at least token desegregation, 
and that we were hopeful that this inevitable change could 
be brought about in as peaceful and orderly fashion as 
possible. We pointed out to the Court that the introduction 
of all of this mass of material, with the importance that 
the case lias generally and with the tremendous play that it 
will be given in the newspapers and news media all over the 
state, as it has been given, would make more difficult 
rather than less difficult the job of Initiating and carrying 
through compliance with the Supreme Court's decision of 
195̂ .

How, it was the opinion of plaintiffs, as we have 
pointed out several times, one, that all of such data was 
irrelevant to the issues in thi3 case, end--

529

THE COURT: I have already ruled on those and--
MR. BEIL: —  This is preparatory to making a further



530
offer on that, Your Honor, If I may.

THE COURT: Well, you needn’t remind me of everything —  
Certainly I don’t want to shut you off on anything you want 
to say that I don’t already know, but we have taken up some 
tine here, and we have two more cases to go on to pretty 
soon, so what Is it?

MR. BEIL: Well, what I want to say is that it was my
hope to, since we must be cognizant of the fact, while we 
are trying the case to the Court, that the State of 
Mississippi as a whole is following this case with avid 
interest, to at least be able to indicate part of trie 
reason, in rebuttal, why, if there is any disparity betv/een 
Hegro and white achievement, our reason for believing that 
it is due to the long and rather unhappy histoiy of unequal 
educational opportunities that have been provided for Negro 
children in the state.

For that reason we wish to offer this, and it is for that 
reason that I would permit the Court to permit counsel for 
plaintiff under Rule 43-c of the Federal Rules to continue 
making their offer in order to make the record. —

TEE COURT: Well, you've already made your offer, and it 
is there and speaks for Itself. And I have sustained the 
objection for the reasons I've already stated, so it is 
not necessary to make any offer of what you expect to prove, 
because there it is. Now, if you have any other evidence you



want to offer in rebuttal, of course, if it is competent 
certainly you are entitled to get it In and I will hear it*
I don’t want to shut you off from anything I think you’re 
entitled to and which you want to do? that’s not ray purpose. 
I am simply ruling hero upon the admissibility of evidence, 
and in ray judgment that is not admissible. As I say, though 
it is there and will become a part of the record upon appeal 
in the event there is an appeal from whatever decision the 
Court makes? so it is there, and it is not necessary for 
you to say anything on what is in there.

MR. BELL: All right, Your Honor. We have nothing
further.

THE COURT: Very well. Let it be marked, and the
objection is sustained.

(Same was marked as Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 4.)
THE COURT: It will not be taken into consideration in

reaching a judgment in this case.
Anything further, Ms. Bell?
MR. BELL: Nothing further, Your Honor. The plaintiffs

rest.
THE COURT: I believe everybody has rested. Is that

correct?
MR. LEONARD: The intervenors rest, but I would like

to point out in connection with the statement which has 
Just been made to the Court by Mr. Bell that we have



presented here in court the actual witnesses and 
documents of which we spoke, and we put them on under 
the conanon laws of evidence, and that they were open both 
to rebuttal and to cross examination, and that Mr. Bell’s 
choice not to cross examine has not been a matter of 
courtesy on his parti it has been an unvillinghess to 
meet this proof.

THE COURT: Very well. Everyone has his statement
in the record now.

It is nearly adjourning time, so let me ask about 
the next case, the Leake County case.

MR. BELL: Yes, Your Honor. On this case, counsel for
plaintiffs and defendants have been making some efforts to 
shorten the proceeding by preparing and agreeing to a 
group of stipulated facts which can be submitted to the 
Court as the factual record of this cose, some of which would 
be attached, exhibits, and other documents.

Now, we are in sort of a draft stage at this time, and 
I believe with a little longer than ordinary lunch break —

THE COTRT: Very well. What about three o’clock?
MR. WELLS: I think by three o’clock we will be able to

come into court with a complete stipulation and eliminate 
any taking of any evidence whatsoever.

THE COURT: Very well. The next case will be the
Biloxi case. What about it?

MR. WATKINS: I don't think the Biloxi case trill take



long, Your Honor. Wo vill probably have one witness.
We expect to adopt the evidence offered in the Jackson 
case, to which I understand counsel has no objection.

MR. TffftJ.it We have the regular objection to its 
competency, but we have no further objection.

USE COURT: I see. You rely upon the same objections
you have heretofore entered.

All right. Let toe ask this now: I don’t believe these
cases have been consolidated, but as I recall it, it was 
agreed here when we started that all the evidence that was 
teicen in this Jackson case, so far as was relevant to the Issues 
in the other cases, would be considered as a part of the evi­
dence in each one of those cases. Is that the understanding?

theMR. BELL: I think that was/understanding.
THE COURT: Is that your understanding?
MR. WATKINS: Yes, sir.
MR. BELL: I did have one witness on the Biloxi case, one

of the plaintiffs who is a medical doctor and one of the few 
Negro medical doctors in the ccmnunity, and I thought there 
was a possibility he could get on today, but rather than 
take his time, I had asked him to be prepared for nine 
o’clock tomorrow morning. Now, I wa3 wondering if we 
could finish up Leake County this afternoon and if it would 
be possible to come back tomorrow morning with the hope of 
finishing up within a very few hours.



554
MR. WATKINS: If counsel would reduce to writing what

Dr. Mason —  Is it Dr. Mason?
MR. BELLI Yes.
MR. WATKINS: --what Dr. Mason plans to testify to, we

may be able to agree that would be his testimony. I would 
like to get through, this afternoon on the Biloxi case, 
if we could.

THE COURT: I imagine you know, in substance, what
Dr. Mason would testify to, don't you, Mr. Bell?

NR, BELL: Yes, Your Honor, I was hoping the Court
would get a chance to see Dr. Mason, in view —

THE COURT: Oh, I know Dr. Mason.
MR. BELL: Oh, you know Dr. Mason? Then *—  Sometimes

I begin to wonder myself* after two or three days of this, 
and I thought Dr. Mason was a prime example to the 
contrary. —  But if you know him, perhaps we could get 
together and make stipulations similar to those that we 
are preparing with Mr. Wells.

THE COURT: Very well. We will take a recess until 
three o'clock, and see what you can work out in that 
time.

(Whereupon the court was recessed until 5*00 P.M.)



IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN 
OF MISSISSIPPI, JACKSON DIVISION

M K M SICT

DAKREUi SENYATTA EVERS and KEENE DENISE EVERS, minors, by MEDOAR W. EVEi© and MRS* MXRLIE B, EVERS, their parents and next friends, ET AL,
Plaintiffs,

Vb *

JACKSON MUNICIPAL SEPARATE SCHOOL DISTRICT,KIRBY P. WALKER, Superintendent of Jackson City Spoolsa LESTER ALVIS, Chairman; C. H. KU», Vice-Chairman; LAMAR NOBLE, Secretary; V. 0. MIZE and J. V. UNDERWOOD, Members,

JIMMY PRIMOS, ET AL,
Defendants,

Intervenors.
(Civil Action No. 5379)

COURT REPORTERS CERTIFICATE 
I, D. B. JORDAN, Official Court Reporter for the 

Southern District of Mississippi, do hereby certify that 
the above-entitled cause came on for hearing before the 
Honorable 8. C, Mize, United States District Judge for the 
Southern District of Mississippi, at Jackson, Mississippi, 
in the Jackson Division, on the l8th day of May, 1964, 
and that the foregoing pages constitute a true and correct 
transcript of the testimony and proceedings.

WITNESS my signature, this the 2nd day of July,
1964.