Bratton v. City of Detroit Amicus Curiae Brief in Support of Petition for Writ of Certiorari to the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit
Public Court Documents
October 25, 1983
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Coppedge v. The Franklin County Board of Education Appellee's Appendix and Exhibit Volume, 1967. 522fa6e6-c99a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/9d4cf67f-20f5-4914-8862-dcc3984a1ec2/coppedge-v-the-franklin-county-board-of-education-appellees-appendix-and-exhibit-volume. Accessed April 06, 2025.
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!'v. ■ COPPEDGE. at als I
t a n d
'W' *4 UNITED STATES, et als
tW . VSo
TH E FRANKLIN iIs
K . COUNTY'-BOARD
fIPi OF EDUCATION,.
.
e t as-.:",
4th Cir.
APPELLEE’S
APPENDIX AND
EXIBIT VOLUME
■
t
I n t h e
United States (Cmtrt of K ppm iz
F ourth Circuit
No. 11,794 U 6 ~ f
____________________________ C <
Harold Douglas Coppedge, a minor, e£ al.,
and
United States o f A merica, etc.,
Appellees,
-v -
The F ranklin County B oard of E ducation, et al.,
Appellants.
APPEAL FROM TH E DISTRICT COURT OF TH E U N ITED STATES FOR TH E
EASTERN DISTRICT OF N O RTH CAROLINA
RALEIGH D IVISIO N -CIVIL
APPELLEES’ APPENDIX
John Doar
Assistant Attorney General
Frank E. Schwelb
Francis H. K ennedy
Department of Justice
Washington, D.C. 20530
Attorneys for
Plaintiffs-Intervenors-Appellees
Jack Greenberg
James M. Nabrit, III
R obert Belton
James N. F inney
10 Columbus Circle
New York, New York 10019
J. LeV onne Chambers
405% East Trade Street
Charlotte, North Carolina
Conrad O. P earson
203% East Chapel Hill Street
Durham, North Carolina
Attorneys for
Plaintiffs-Appellees
I N D E X
Volume I
PAGE
Complaint......................................................................... 2a
Answer ................................................. .........................._. 10a
Exhibit “A ” Attached to Answer—General
Statement of Policies, etc. (Omitted) ............. 16a
O rder................................................................................. 17a
Complaint in Intervention ......................................... 18a
Verified Answer to Complaint in Intervention........... 26a
Transcript of Hearing on Motion for Preliminary
Injunction..................................................................... 35a
Motion to Delay Injunction.................................. 150a
Order Denying Motion for Preliminary Injunction .... 156a
Findings of Fact; Conclusions of Law; Interim
O rder........................................................................ 162a
Appendix A —Plan for Compliance, etc. ........... 171a
Appendix B—Assurance of Compliance, etc. ..- 177a
Plaintiffs’ Response to Defendants’ Standards for
Employment, etc......................................................... 180a
Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Objections to Defendants’
Standards, etc. ......... 182a
Motion to Require Defendants to Eliminate Edu
cational Disparities ................................................... 185a
11
Affidavit of Frank E. Schwelb in Support of Motion 186a
Appendix A— Enrollment List ............................. 191a
Appendix B—Enrollment List ............................. 193a
Appendix C— Enrollment List ............................. 195a
Appendix D—Enrollment List ............................. 197a
Appendix E—Enrollment List ............................. 199a
Appendix F—Enrollment List ............................. 201a
Appendix G—Assignment of Buses ................... 203a
Motion for Further Belief .......................................... 204a
Plaintiffs’ Interrogatories ............................................. 209a
Defendants’ Answers to Plaintiffs’ Interrogatories .. 213a
Exhibit A —Enrollment T ota ls............................. 217a
Exhibit B—Notice of School Desegregation
Plan ................................................ 219a
Exhibit C—Letter to Parents............................... 221a
Exhibit D— Same as Exhibit B ........................... 222a
Exhibit E -l—Letter ............................................... 223a
Exhibit E-2— Same as Exhibit B ....................... 224a
Exhibit E-3— Choice of School Form ................. 225a
Defendants’ Answers to Plaintiffs’ Interrogatories .. 226a
Defendants’ Response to Plaintiffs’ Motion for Fur
ther Relief .................................................................... 228a
PAGE
Transcript of Hearing in Baltimore, Md., dated
April 20, 1967 ............................................................. 233a
Transcript of Hearing in Raleigh, N.C., dated May
9, 1967 ......................................................................... 236a
Appendix C to Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Proposed Find
ings ............................................................................ 239a
Appendix D to Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Proposed Find
ings ............................................................................. 259a
Defendants’ Motion to Stay Execution of Opinion
and Order dated August 17,1967 .............................. 262a
Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Memorandum in Opposition to
Defendants’ Motion to Stay Execution................. . 265a
Order Denying Stay ..................................................... 271a
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston ........... 272a
Deposition of Booker Talefero D river..................... 308a
Deposition of Cecil M acon........................................... 328a
Deposition of Sidney Winston M anley...................... 335a
Deposition of George Vance Floyd ............................ 345a
Deposition of John Echols .......................................... 363a
Deposition of W. J. Champion...................................... 370a
Deposition of Jean Carol Satterwhite ...................... 380a
1X1
PAGE
IV
Stipulated Testimony of Satterwhite, Moore, Geddie
and Dunn ...................................................................... 410a
Deposition of Nellie Margaret Kearney ................... 413a
Deposition of Irene A rrington.................................... 418a
T estimony
(Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction)
Government’s Witnesses
Warren W. Smith—
Direct (By Mr. Fink) ...................................48a, 79a
Direct (By Mr. Chambers) ........................... 59a
Cross (By Mr. Yarborough) ......................... 83a
Redirect (By Mr. Chambers) .................112a, 146a
Recross (By Mr. Yarborough) ...............137a, 148a
Redirect (By Mr. Fink) ................................. 149a
Volume II
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham ................ 483a, 907a
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood .......................... 526a, 742a
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge ......................... 560a
Deposition of Spencer McKinley Massenburg ....... 590a
Exhibit 1— Note ...................................................... 601a
Exhibit 2— Note ...................................................... 603a
PAGE
Deposition of Queen E. W orth am ................................ 397a
y
Deposition of Plummer Alston, Jr............................... 604a
Government’s Exhibit 1—Article in Franklin
Tim es...................... .............. .............. ................ . g lia
Deposition of Inez D avis................................................ 612a
Exhibit A—Form B ............................................__ 623a
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek .................... 625a
Deposition of Margaret Crudup................................. . 648a
Government’s Exhibits 2 and 3—N otes............... 667a
Government’s Exhibit 4—Letter dated August
12, 1965 ................................................................. 669a
Deposition of James T. Anderson.......................... 670a
Government’s Exhibit 1—Article from Franklin
Tim es..................................................................... 689a
Deposition of Joseph Henry Branch ........................ 690a
Exhibit 1—Letter dated June 10, 1965 ........... 705a
Exhibit 2— School Preferential Form ............... 707a
Exhibit 3— School Preferential Form ............... 709a
Deposition of Christine Coppedge ...................... 710a, 760a
Government’s Exhibit 1—Article from Franklin
Tim es..................................................................... 725a
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers ...................... 726a, 847a
Government’s Exhibit 1—Article from Franklin
Tim es............................... 741a
PAGE
VI
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg .............................. 821a
Deposition of Buck Norwood .................................... 882a
Deposition of Christopher Neal ................................. 925a
Deposition o f Paul C. Engram ................................. 959a
Volume III
Deposition of Warren E. Massenburg ................... 997a
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson ................... 1014a
Deposition of William L. Stormer ........................... 1036a
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan ............................... 1096a
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey ............................ 1127a
Deposition of Michael Dan Matthews .................... 1149a
Deposition of Wanda Lou Parrish .......................... 1151a
Deposition of Sheral Frazier .................................... 1153a
Deposition of Jerry Wayne Boone .......................... 1154a
Deposition of Ira Bowden .......................................... 1153a
Deposition of Mattie Gr. C. Harris .......................... 1163a
Deposition of Arnee Hartsfield ................................ 1475a
PAGE
Deposition o f Alice Fay Clanton ................................ 790a
Deposition of Buby E. Perry ......... 1183a
Deposition of Charlie White .... 1189a
Deposition of Frank W. Bogers ....... 1194a
Deposition of Joyce Terrell ........................................ 1202a
Deposition of Willie Perry ....................... 1208a
Deposition of Dazell Walters .................................... 1214a
Deposition of Sadie M. Suitt .................................... 1216a
Deposition of Joyce Griffin ........................................ 1221a
Deposition of Bobert B. Fleming ............................ 1226a
Deposition of Alvaretta Moore .................;.............. 1230a
Deposition of Cunetter Bolden .................................. 1235a
Deposition of Melissa Dean ........................................ 1236a
Deposition of Ollie Strickland .................................. 1241a
Deposition of Gladys Hayes ...................................... 1243a
Deposition of Bobert Bichardson .............................. 1244a
Deposition of Evelyn Kay Harris .......................... 1246a
Deposition of Veronica Hawkins .............................. 1252a
vii
PAGE
Deposition of Mattie W. Crudup .............................. 1179a
Vlll
Transcript of Trial July 25-26, 1967 ........................... 1256a
Summation of Argument by Counsel ................. 1489a
(Trial July 25-26, 1967)
Plaintiffs’ Witness
Rev. Luther Coppedge—
Direct (By Mr. Schwelb) ............................... 1259a
Direct (By Mr. Chambers) ........................... 1286a
Cross (By Mr. Yarborough) ......................... 1287a
Redirect (By Mr. Schwelb) ........................... 1316a
Recross (By Mr. Yarborough) ..................... 1319a
Defendants’ Witness
Warren W. Smith—
Direct (By Mr. Davis) ................................... 1330a
Cross (By Mr. Chambers) ........................... 1354a
Cross (By Mr. Schwelb) ............................... 1398a
Redirect (By Mr. Davis) .....................1436a, 1483a
Recross (By Mr. Chambers) ......................... 1470a
Recross (By Mr. Schwelb) ........................... 1477a
PAGE
ix
Exhibit Volume
EXHIBITS
PAGE
Government Trial Exhibit 16 (Excerpts from the
Minutes of the Franklin County Board of Educa
tion (Minutes of the Meeting of February 4,
1963) ............................................................................. 1535a
Government Trial Exhibit 20 ..................................... 1545a
Government Trial Exhibit 22 ..................................... 1547a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of Sidney
W. Manley of July 26, 1966 ...................................... 1550a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of Margaret
Crudup of July 27, 1966 .......................................... 1550a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of William
L. Stormer of May 19, 1967 ...................................... 1551a
Government Trial Exhibit 1 ....................................... 1567a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of Irene
Arrington of July 27, 1966 ...................................... 1568a
Government Trial Exhibit 15 ..................................... 1570a
Government Trial Exhibit 3 ....................................... 1571a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of George
V. Echols of July 26, 1966 ...... ............................ 1573a
X
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of Irene
Arrington of July 27, 1966 ....................................... 1575a
Government Trial Exhibit 6 ......................................... 1577a
Government Trial Exhibit 5 ......................................... 1578a
Government Trial Exhibit 7 ......................................... 1581a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of Rev
erend Luther Coppedge of July 28, 1966 ............. 1582a
Government Trial Exhibit 8 ........................................ 1583a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of James
T. Anderson of July 28, 1966 ................................. 1584a
Government Trial Exhibit 9 ......................................... 1586a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of Plummer
Alston, Jr. of July 27, 1966 ....................................... 1587a
Government Trial Exhibit 11 ....................................... 1588a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of Reverend
Sidney Dunston of July 26,1966 ............................... 1591a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of Fred W.
Rogers of July 28, 1966 ............................................. 1595a
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of Fred W.
Rogers of April 28, 1967 ........................................... 1596a
Government Trial Exhibit 36 ...................................... 1606a
PAGE
XI
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of Fred W.
Rogers of April 28, 1967 .......................................... 1608a
Government Exhibit 4 to the Deposition of Arthur
L. Morgan of May 20, 1967 ..................................... . 1611a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of Arthur
L. Morgan of May 20, 1967 ...................................... 1614a
Government Trial Exhibit 33 ...................................... 1616a
Government Trial Exhibit 35 ...................................... 1618a
PAGE
I n t h e
Ittiteii States (£nurt uf A ppals
FOB TH E
E astern District o f North Carolina
R aleigh Division
Civil A ction N o. C1796
H arold Douglas Coppedge, a minor, by Ms father and next
friend, R ev. L uther Coppedge;
F rances Narene Driver, Jacquelyn R ose Driver, B ooker
T. Driver, Jr., and Jesse L. Driver, minors, by their
father and next friend, B ooker T. Driver;
Charles D. Gill, Martha D. Gill and James Gill, minors,
by their father and next friend, Otis Gil l ;
P atricia K. Gill, a minor, by her father and next friend,
R ufin Gill ;
Margie J. K elley and Gwendolyn E. K elley, minors, by
their father and next friend W illie Pettiford;
Jean Carol Satterwhite and Carl Lee Satterwhite,
minors, by their father and next friend, Henry
Satterwhite ;
Bertha E ngram and P aul E ngram, II, minors, by their
father and next friend P aul E ngram ;
Norine A rrington, a minor, by her mother and next friend,
Mrs. Irene A rrington;
Carrie C. McK night and Nathaniel McK night, minors,
by their mother and next friend, Mrs. Carrie H. Comer ;
Charlie H. J ones, a minor, by his father and next friend,
Sandy J ones ;
Regina 0 . W oodson, a minor, by her mother and next friend,
Mrs. Osceloa Cogswell,
Plaintiffs,
v.
The F ranklin County B oard of E ducation,
a public body corporate,
Defendant.
2a
Complaint
(Filed December 8, 1965)
I
The jurisdiction of this Court is invoked pursuant to
Title 28 U. S. C. §1343(3) and (4) this being a suit in
equity authorized by law, Title 42 U. S. C. §1983, to be
commenced by any citizen of the United States or other
person within the jurisdiction thereof the redress the
deprivation under color of statute, ordinance, regulation,
custom, or usage of a State of rights, privileges, and
immunities secured by the Constitution and the laws of
the United States. The rights, privileges and immunities
sought herein to be redressed are those secured by the
Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses of the Con
stitution of the United States.
II
This is a proceeding for a preliminary and permanent
injunction enjoining the Franklin County Board of Edu
cation, its members and its Superintendent from con
tinuing the policy, practice, custom and usage of dis
criminating against the plaintiffs and other Negro citizens
of Franklin County, North Carolina, because of race or
color.
III
The plaintiffs in this case are Harold Douglas Cop-
pedge, a minor, by his father and next friend, Rev. Luther
Coppedge; Frances Narene Driver, Jacquelyn Rose Driver,
Booker T. Driver, Jr., and Jesse L. Driver, minors, by
their father and next friend, Booker T. Driver; Charles
D. Gill, Martha D. Gill and James Gill, minors, by their
3a
father and next friend, Otis Gill; Patricia K. Gill, a minor,
by her father and next friend, Rutin Gill; Margie J.
Kelley and Gwendolyn E. Kelley, minors, by their father
and next friend, Willie Pettiford; Jean Carol Satterwhite
and Carl Lee Satterwhite, minors, by their father and
next friend, Henry Satterwhite; Bertha Engram and Paul
Engram, II, minors, by their father and next friend, Paul
Engram; Norine Arrington, a minor, by her mother and
next friend, Mrs. Irene Arrington; Carrie C. McKnight
and Nathaniel McKnight, minors, by their mother and
next friend, Mrs. Carrie H. Comer; Charlie H. Jones, a
minor, by his father and next friend, Sandy Jones; Regina
0. Woodson, a minor, by her mother and next friend, Mrs.
Osceloa Cogswell. Plaintiffs are Negroes and bring this
action on their own behalf and on behalf of all other Negro
children and their parents in Franklin County, North
Carolina, who are similarly situated and affected by the
policy, custom, practice and usage complained of herein.
Plaintiffs are citizens of the United States and of the
State of North Carolina. All plaintiffs reside in the Frank
lin County, North Carolina, and the minor plaintiffs and
ohter minor children similarly situated are eligible to
attend the public schools of Franklin County which are
under the jurisdiction, management and control of the
defendant. The members of the class on behalf of whom
plaintiffs sue are so numerous as to make it impracticable
to bring them all individually before this Court, but there
are common questions of law and fact involved, common
grievances arising out of common wrongs and common
relief is sought for each member of the class. The plain
tiffs fairly and adequately represent the interest of the
class.
Complaint
4a
IV
The defendant in this case is the Franklin County Board
of Education, a public body corporate, organized and
existing under the laws of the State of North Carolina.
The defendant Board maintains and generally supervises
the public schools in Franklin County, North Carolina,
acting pursuant to the direction and authority contained
in the State’s constitutional provisions and statutes. As
such the Board is an arm of the State of North Carolina,
enforcing and exercising State laws and policies.
V
Defendant, acting under color of the authority vested
in it by the laws of the State of North Carolina, has pur
sued and is presently pursuing a policy, custom, practice
and usage of operating the public school system of Frank
lin County, North Carolina, on a racially discriminatory
basis, to wit:
A. Defendant maintains and operates dual school zones
and attendance areas for white and Negro pupils. All
Negro pupils are initially assigned by the defendant Board
to schools limited to Negro students; similarly, all white
students are initially assigned to schools limited to white
students.
B. Defendant employs and assigns principals, teachers
and other professional school personnel on the basis of
race and color. Negro principals, teachers and other pro
fessional school personnel are assigned to schools reserved
for Negro students and white principals, teachers and other
professional school personnel are assigned to schools re
served for white students.
Complaint
5a
C. Effective with the 1965-66 school year, defendant has
adopted a plan for the assignment of students to the various
schools as follows:
1. Students entering the first grade, or entering the
school system for the first time may indicate their
choice of school.
2. Students in grades 2, 9 and 12 for the school year
1965-66 were permitted to indicate a choice of school.
Freedom of choice is to he extended to grades 3, 4,
10 and 11 for the school year 1966-67 and to all
remaining grades for the school year 1967-68.
3. Students in grades unaffected by the plan this school
year and for the 1966-67 school year are assigned to
schools pursuant to dual biracial school zone lines,
Negro students to Negro schools and white students
to white schools.
4. In case of overcrowding, preference is given to stu
dents living nearest to the school.
5. No provision is made for elimination of racial em
ployment and assignment of teachers, principals and
school personnel nor for the elimination of racial
planned or sanctioned extra curricular school ac
tivities.
VI
Individual plaintiffs herein, pursuant to the plan adopted
by defendant and on the basis of their race and color,
were assigned by defendant to Negro schools. Plaintiffs,
through their parents, requested reassignment to pre
viously all-white schools. Plaintiffs’ requests were denied,
plaintiffs were advised, because they were in grades un
Complaint
6a
affected by defendant’s plan. Plaintiffs’ requests for trans
fer were denied by the defendant pursuant to a plan
which deprives plaintiffs of their rights to equal protec
tion and to due process of law as guaranteed by the Four
teenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States
and 42 U. S. C. §1983, in that plaintiffs were assigned
to schools and are compelled to remain at these schools
solely on the basis of their race and color without justifi
cation therefor.
VII
Plaintiffs have made reasonable efforts to communicate
their dissatisfaction with the continued racial discrimina
tion by the Board in the operation of the Franklin County
Public Schools, but without effecting any change. Plain
tiffs seek here, not only their transfer to previously all-
white schools, but also the complete reorganization of the
Franklin County School System into a unitary, nonracial
system wherein the educational opportunities offered by
the defendant are made available to all students without
regard to race or color, wherein there are no racial designa
tions in the assignment of teachers, principals and other
professional school personnel, wherein school plans, opera
tion, and all school activities are free from racial designa
tion and restrictions.
Complaint
VIII
Plaintiffs and members of the class which they represent
are irreparably injured by the acts of defendant com
plained of herein. The continued operation of a racially
discriminatory school system in Franklin County, the con
tinued use of racially drawn attendance lines, the assign
7a
ment of students and personnel on the basis of race and
the administration of a racially discriminatory transfer
system, the approval of school budgets and school activities
on the basis of race violate the rights of the plaintiffs and
the class they represent which are secured to them by the
Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses of the Four
teenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
The injury which plaintiffs and members of their class
suffer as a result of the actions of the defendant is and
will continue to be irreparable until enjoined by this
Court. Any other relief to which plaintiffs and those
similarly situated could he remitted would be attended
by such uncertainties and delays as to deny substantial
relief, would involve a multiplicity of suits, cause further
irreparable injury and occasion damage, vexation and in
convenience to the plaintiffs and those similarly situated.
W herefore, plaintiffs respectfully pray that this Court
advance this cause on the docket and order a speedy hear
ing of the action according to law and, after such hearing,
enter a preliminary and permanent decree enjoining the
defendant, its agents, employees and successors and all
persons in active concert and participation with them:
1. From refusing to permit plaintiffs to transfer im
mediately to the school of their choice.
2. From continuing to maintain a dual scheme or ra
cially drawn school zone lines or attendance area lines.
3. From making initial assignments of pupils to the
public schools of Franklin County, North Carolina, on the
basis of race or color.
Complaint
8a
4. From continuing to administer a racially discrimina
tory transfer system.
5. From assigning teachers, principals, and other pro
fessional school personnel to the public schools under their
jurisdiction on the basis of race or color.
6. From approving employment contracts, budgets and
disbursing funds on the basis of race or color.
7. From undertaking any new construction designed to
continue and perpetuate a segregated system of education
in Franklin County, North Carolina.
8. From programming, sanctioning and supporting ex
tra-curricular activities which are limited solely to mem
bers of one race or color.
9. From continuing to make any other distinctions in the
operation of the schools under its jurisdiction which are
based solely on race or color.
In the alternative, plaintiffs pray that this Court enter
a decree directing the defendant to present a complete
plan in a period of time which will permit its implementa
tion during the school year of 1965-66, reorganizing the
entire school system of Franklin County, North Carolina,
into a unitary, nonracial system which will include a plan
for the assignment of teachers, pupils, principals and other
school personnel on a nonracial basis; the allotment of
funds, the construction of schools, the approval of budgets
on a nonracial basis; the programming of extra-curricular
activities on a nonracial basis and the elimination of any
Complaint
9a
other discrimination in the operation of the school system
or curricular which are based solely on race or color.
Plaintiffs pray that if this Court directs defendant to
produce a desegregation plan, this Court will retain juris
diction of this case pending Court approval and full and
complete implementation of defendant’s plan.
Plaintiffs pray that this Court will allow them their
costs herein, reasonable counsel fees and grant such other,
further and additional or alternative relief as may appear
to the Court to be equitable and just.
Respectfully submitted,
Complaint
CONBAD 0 . P e ABSON
2031/2 East Chapel Hill Street
Durham, North Carolina
J. Levonne Chambebs
405% East Trade Street
Charlotte, North Carolina
J ack Geeenbebg
Debbick A. Bell, Jb.
10 Columbus Circle
New York, New York 10019
Attorneys for Plaintiffs
10a
(Filed January 14, 1966)
Now c o m e s t h e d e f e n d a n t the Franklin County Board of
Education, answering the complaint in this action, and
says and alleges as follows:
1. Answering Paragraph 1 of the complaint, it is ad
mitted that the Statutes cited therein confer jurisdiction
upon this Court; hut the defendant denies that any of the
plaintiffs in this action have been deprived by the defendant
of any rights, privileges, and immunities secured by the
Constitution and laws of the United States, and those se
cured by the Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses of
the Constitution of the United States.
2. It is admitted that the complaint states that the
plaintiffs in this action seek a preliminary and permanent
injunction enjoining the Franklin County Board of Educa
tion, its members and its superintendent, from continuing
certain alleged practices; hut this defendant says that all
allegations of the complaint alleging discrimination by
the defendant against the plaintiffs and others similarly
situated in Franklin County, North Carolina, because of
race or color, are unwarranted and are untrue.
3. It is admitted that the parties listed in Paragraph 3
of the complaint are denominated plaintiffs herein, hut it
is denied, upon information and belief, that every one of the
next friends is the father or the mother of a minor plaintiff
or that every one of the minor plaintiffs is a citizen of
Franklin County, North Carolina.
Further answering said paragraph, the defendant admits
that the plaintiffs are of the colored race, but the defendant
Answer
11a
has no knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief
as to how many other members of the colored race desire
the plaintiffs to act on their behalf or to represent them
in this action, for that this defendant denies that any of its
policies, customs, practices and usages discriminate against
or deprive any citizen of Franklin County, North Carolina,
colored or white, of any of their rights or privileges. Ex
cept as herein admitted, the allegations of Paragraph 3
of the complaint are denied.
4. The allegations of Paragraph 4 are admitted, except
that the defendant says that it enforces and exercises not
only State laws and policies but also acts to the best of its
ability in compliance with the laws and policies of the
United States.
5. That Paragraph 5 of the complaint is denied. Further
anwsering said paragraph, the defendant says and alleges:
A. That the Office of Education of the United States
Department of Health, Education and Welfare (herein
after called Office of Education) pursuant to the enactment
into law of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, issued rules and
regulations respecting the enforcement of the provisions
of said Act, which said rules and regulations were, accord
ing to defendant’s information and belief, approved by the
President of the United States as required by said Act.
That said rules and regulations were entitled “ General
Statement of Policies Under Title V I Of The Civil Rights
Act Of 1964 Respecting Desegregation of Elementary And
Secondary Schools” , a copy of same being hereto attached,
marked Exhibit “A ” and asked to be taken as a part of
this Answer.
Answer
12a
B. That upon being informed of requirements of the
Department of Health, Education and Welfare of the
United States Government that a Franklin County Plan
for Compliance with the Civil Rights Act of 1964 must be
submitted to and approved by the said Office of Education,
the defendants, through its agents and representatives, had
conferences and meetings with representatives of the Office
of Education, and pursuant to these conference and meet
ings, the Franklin Coupnty Board of Education submitted
to the Office of Education a draft of a Plan for Compliance
with the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (hereinafter called “ Plan
for Compliance” ) ; that thereafter, other conferences and
meetings were held with representatives of the Office of
Education and amendments were made to the Franklin
County Plan for Compliance; that on 31 August 1965 the
Office of Education approved said Plan for Compliance as
amended. A copy of said Plan for Compliance, embracing
all amendments made subsequent to 3 May 1965, is hereto
attached, marked Exhibit “ B” and asked to be taken as a
part of this Answer.
C. That as provided by the directive issued by the Office
of Education of the United States Department of Health,
Education and Welfare, same being Exhibit “A ” hereto
attached, the Franklin County Board of Education, prior
to the time of the closing of the schools for the 1964-65
school year, required parents or legal guardian of children
entitled to attend the schools of the Franklin County Ad
ministrative Unit in the 1965-66 school year and who were
to be initially enrolled in the first grade or who were pro
moted to the second, ninth or twelfth grades for the 1965-66
school year, to make a free choice of the schools within said
Administrative Unit in behalf of said children, and pursu
Answer
13a
ant to said free choices, ten colored children were assigned
by the Franklin County Board of Education for the 1965-66
school year to schools formerly attended by white children,
and a number of said colored children are now attending
formerly all white schools. That under the aforesaid ap
proved Plan for Compliance, all parents or legal guardian
of all students in all grades of schools of the Franklin
County Administrative Unit will be required, beginning
with the 1966-67 school year which commences on or about
1 September 1966, and for each school year thereafter, to
exercise a free choice of schools, and no pupil will be ad
mitted or readmitted to any school in the Franklin County
Administrative Unit until such free choice has been made,
as herein specified.
D. That the United States Office of Education, Depart
ment of Health, Education and Welfare, has set a target
date of the fall of 1967 for the extension of desegregation
to all grades of all school systems within the United States,
and the Franklin County Plan for Compliance with the
Civil Eights Act of 1964 exceeds the minimum requirements
of said United States Office of Education, in that the fall
of 1966 is the date for extension to all grades in all schools
in the Franklin County Administrative Unit of the freedom
of choice plan approved by the said Office of Education.
That therefore, under the Franklin County Plan for Com
pliance, for the 1966-67 school year which will commence
on or about 1 September 1966, the parents or legal guardian
of all children eligible to attend the schools of the Franklin
County Administrative Unit, including all plaintiffs who
may be so eligible, shall be required, prior to the closing of
the 1965-66 school year in the month of May 1966, to exer
cise their free choice of schools, and the Franklin County
Answer
14a
Board of Education is now adhering and will continue to
adhere to said Plan for Compliance.
6. That the allegations of Paragraph 6 of the complaint
are denied. Further answering said paragraph the de
fendant says that requests were made in behalf of the
plaintiffs for assignment fo rthe 1965-66 school year to
schools of the Franklin County Administrative Unit other
than the schools which said plaintiffs had previously been
attending, but that the grades to which transfers were re
quested in behalf of said plaintiffs were not the first,
second, ninth or twelfth grades, but were for grades to
which freedom of choice will be extended for the school
year beginning September 1966, and for which assignments
shall be made by the Franklin County Board of Education
prior to the end of the 1965-66 school year in May 1966,
and therefore those of the plaintiffs who will be eligible
to attend the schools of the Franklin County Administra
tive Unit for the 1966-67 and subsequent school years will
more than receive the benefit of the United States Office of
Education’s 1967 target date for total public school desegre
gation. That all of the minor plaintiffs are for the 1965-66
school year enrolled in and attending the schools to which
their parents or legal guardian initially enrolled them by
their voluntary action, and this defendant says that the
defendant Franklin County Board of Education is not
depriving the plaintiffs, under color of statute, ordinance,
regulation, custom or usage, of rights, privileges, and im
munities secured by the Constitution and laws of the United
States, but on the contrary said defendant Franklin Board
of Education is assuring and supplying to the plaintiffs
all of their rights, privileges and immunities provide by
the Constitution and laws of the United States. Except as
Answer
15a
herein admitted, all the allegations of Paragraph 6 of the
complaint are untrue and are denied.
7. That there is no racial discrimination by the Franklin
County Board of Education in the operation of the Franklin
County public schools; that all educational opportunities
offered by the Franklin County Board of Education to
students eligible to attend the schools of the Franklin
County Administrative Unit are now available to all stu
dents without regard to race or color pursuant to the
aforesaid Plan for Compliance; that there are now no
racial designations in assignment of teachers, principals
and other professional school personnel; and that school
plans, operation and all school activities are now free from
racial designation and restriction, pursuant to the afore
said Plan for Compliance and said directive of the United
States Department of Health, Education and Welfare.
Except as herein admitted, all the allegations of Para
graph 7 of the complaint are untrue and are denied.
8. That the allegations of Paragraph 8 of the complaint
are untrue and are denied.
W herefore, the defendant prays judgment of the Court:
1. That, plaintiffs’ request for preliminary and perma
nent injunction be denied, and that the defendant be heard
by the Court before the entering of any order respecting a
preliminary or permanent injunction.
2. That all prayers in plaintiffs’ complaint be denied and
that this action be dismissed.
3. That plaintiffs be taxed with the costs hereof, and
that the Court grant such other, further and additional
Answer
16a
relief to the defendant as may appear to the Court to be
equitable and just.
R espectfully submitted, this the 14th day of January
1966.
Answer
“ Exhibit A” Attached to Defendant’s Answer
General Statement of P olicies U nder T itle Y I of the
Civil R ights A ct of 1964 Respecting Desegregation of
Elementary and Secondary Schools
(Omitted)
17a
Order
This cause came on to be heard on January 19, 1966,
on the motion of the Attorney General of the United States.
It appearing that the Attorney General has certified
that this is a case of general public importance, it is or
dered that the plaintiff-intervenor’s motion for leave to
intervene is granted and the plaintiff-intervenor is hereby
allowed to enter its appearance in said cause and to file
its complaint in intervention therein.
It is further ordered that the plaintiff-intervenor’s mo
tion to add new parties is granted and that Franklin
County Board of Education, Louisburg, North Carolina;
Warren W. Smith, Louisburg, North Carolina; Mrs. T. H.
Dickens, Louisburg, North Carolina; Jones H. Winston,
Youngsville, North Carolina; Albert C. Fuller, Louisburg,
North Carolina; Lloyd A. West, Henderson, North Caro
lina; and Horace W. Baker, Youngsville, North Carolina,
be added as parties-defendant and that the Clerk issue
summons to be served upon them, together with a copy of
the complaint in intervention.
This 20th day of January, 1966.
/ s / A lgernon L. B utler
A lgernon L. B utler
Chief Judge,
United States District Court
18a
Complaint in Intervention
(Filed January 20, 1966)
I n TH E
United States District Court
FOR TH E
E astern District of North Carolina
E aleigh Division
Civil A ction No. C 1796
H arold Douglas Coppedge, et al.,
Plaintiffs,
United States of A merica, by Nicholas deB. K atzenbach,
Attorney General,
Plaintiff -Inter venor,
v.
T he Franklin County B oard of E ducation, a public body
corporate; W arren W . Smith, Superintendent, Mrs.
T.H. Dickens, Cbairman, Jones H. W inston, A lbert
C. F uller, Lloyd A. W est, H orace W . B aker, members,
Franklin County Board of Education,
Defendants.
The United States of America, plaintiff-intervenor
herein, alleges:
1. This is a complaint in intervention filed by the
United States under Section 902 of the Civil Rights Act
of 1964 (78 Stat. 241, 266-267), and Rule 24, F.R.C.P.
19a
2. On December 8, 1965, the plaintiffs filed their com
plaint in this case nnder 28 U.S.C. §1343 (3) and (4) and
42 U.S.C. 1983 seeking injunctive relief against alleged
conduct of the defendant Franklin County Board of Edu
cation denying them the equal protection of the laws on
account of race or color, in violation of the Fourteenth
Amendment to the United States Constitution and 42
U.S.C. 1983.
3. The Attorney General has certified that this case is
of general public importance and his certificate is attached
to this complaint in intervention.
4. The plaintiffs herein are Negro citizens of the United
States who presently reside in Franklin County, North
Carolina, and are presently enrolled in or eligible to attend
the public schools operated by the Franklin County Board
of Education.
5. The Franklin County Board of Education, the orig
inal defendant herein, is charged with the responsibility
under North Carolina law of operating a public school
system in Franklin County, North Carolina.
6. Mrs. T. H. Dickens, chairman, Jones H. Winston,
Albert C. Fuller, Lloyd A. West, and Horace W. Baker
are members of the Franklin County Board of Education
and are charged under Article 5, §§115-18 et seq. General
Statutes of North Carolina with the general control and
supervision of all matters pertaining to the public schools
administered by the Franklin County Board of Education.
7. Warren W. Smith is the Superintendent of schools
for Franklin County. He is charged under Article 6,
Complaint in Intervention
20a
§§115-54, et seq. of the General Statutes of North Caro
lina with the responsibility of acting as ex officio secre
tary to the defendant Franklin County Board of Educa
tion and of keeping records and supervising other admin
istrative functions in the operation of the schools operated
by the defendant school board.
8. In operating the public schools in Franklin County,
North Carolina, prior to the 1965-66 school year the defen
dants maintained a dual system based upon race and color.
Seven schools were maintained exclusively for Negro stu
dents and were staffed by Negro teachers and six schools
were maintained exclusively for white students and were
staffed by white teachers.
9. The defendants, in operating and directing the pub
lic school system of Franklin County, have received and
are receiving financial aid and assistance under various
federal programs administered by the Department of
Health, Education and Welfare.
10. Pursuant to Sections 601 and 602 of the Civil Rights
Act of 1964 (42 U.S.C. §§2000d, 2000d-l) and implementing
regulations adopted by the Secretary of the Department
of Health, Education and Welfare (45 C.F.R. §80.1 et seq.),
the defendants filed a desegregation plan with the Dnited
States Office of Education, which plan was approved on
August 31, 1965.
11. The desegregation plan accepted by the United
States Office of Education provided that students enrolled
in the first, second, ninth and twelfth grades of the schools
operated by the defendants were to be given a free choice
as to which of these schools they would attend.
Complaint in Intervention
21a
12. The desegregation plan further provided, that stu
dents enrolled in grades other than the first, second, ninth
or twelfth grades of the schools operated by the defendants
could also apply for a transfer to their choice. These
transfers were described by the defendants’ desegregation
plan as “lateral transfers” . Pursuant to the desegregation
plan the defendant school board could adopt racially non-
discriminatory prerequisites for lateral transfers provided
that the prerequisites were made known to the transfer
applicants. The defendant Board of Education adopted
a policy that lateral transfers would only be granted to
students who changed their residences or desired to take
a course of study unavailable to them at the schools in
which they were enrolled at the time of application.
13. Pursuant to their desegregation plan, the defen
dants, in the spring of 1965, conducted a freedom-of-choice
school registration. Sixty-one Negro students, out of a
total of over three thousand Negro students in the Franklin
County School system, applied for transfer to formerly
all-white schools.
14. Of the sixty-one applications for transfer referred
to in the preceding paragraph, thirty were filed on behalf
of Negro students seeking lateral transfers to schools
attended by white students.
15. The defendants failed to inform prospective appli
cants for lateral transfer of the conditions upon which
such transfers would be granted. As a result of this failure,
the thirty Negro applicants for lateral transfer had no
opportunity to set forth in their applications information
Complaint in Intervention
22a
showing that they met the conditions imposed by the de
fendants for the granting of snch transfers.
16. The defendant school board, on or about August 23,
1965, denied the applications of the thirty Negro students
seeking lateral transfers and continues to refuse to enroll
these Negro students in the schools of their choice, upon
the grounds that the applications did not state the appli
cants had changed their residences or desired to take
courses of study unavailable at the school in which the
applicants were enrolled at the time they submitted their
applications for transfers.
17. Of the sixty-one applications for transfer referred
to in paragraph 13, thirty-one were filed on behalf of
Negro students enrolled in the first, second, ninth and
twelfth grades of schools operated by the defendants seek
ing freedom of choice transfers to schools attended by
white students.
18. Following the receipt of the applications for trans
fers from the Negro students the defendants caused the
names and addresses of these students to be published
in a newspaper of general circulation in Franklin County.
19. Following publication of the identities of the Negro
applicants, they and their families were threatened and
intimidated by various means, including cross burnings
and the shooting of firearms at homes of Negroes.
20. Following the publication of the identities of the
Negro applicants and their being threatened and in
timidated as above described, approximately twenty of
Complaint in Intervention
23a
them requested that they he allowed to withdraw their
applications. The defendants granted each such request
and enrolled the applicants in schools attended solely
by Negroes.
21. As a result of the actions of the defendants at
least fifty-one of the sixty-one Negro applicants for trans
fer are still enrolled in schools attended solely by Negroes.
22. The defendants maintain, at the present time, a
racially segregated school system in which students, faculty
members and other staff personnel are assigned on the
basis of race or color and will continue to do so unless
restrained by order of this Court.
W h e r e f o r e , the plaintiff-intervenor prays that this Court
enter an order enjoining the defendants, together with
their agents, employees, successors and all those in active
concert or participation with them from failing to offer
and provide equal educational opportunities and facilities
to all students in all schools without regard to their race
or color and from otherwise maintaining in the operation
of the Franklin County School system any distinctions
based upon race or color and more particularly requiring
that:
1. Defendants not publish, or otherwise divulge without
legitimate reason, the identity of any Negro student who
applies for transfer to a school attended by white students;
2. Defendants immediately enroll in the schools of their
choice the Negro students whose requests for lateral trans
fers for the 1965-1966 school year were denied;
Complaint in Intervention
24a
3. Defendants adopt all measures and take all steps,
necessary and reasonable, to ensure that every student en
rolled, or eligible for enrollment, in any school operated
by the defendants makes a full, informed choice unin
fluenced by threats, intimidation or harassment from any
source, of the school which he will attend beginning with
the 1966-1967 school year.
4. In the event that, upon a hearing, defendants do
not demonstrate that a truly free choice of schools, unin
fluenced by threats, intimidation or harassment, can be
given every student no later than the commencement
of the 1966-1967 school year by the measures and steps
adopted and taken by defendants, then, in such case, the
defendants be required to assign all students according
to a unitary system of geographic attendance zones, or some
other non-discriminatory means not depending upon the
choice of the pupils.
5. Defendants shall make provision for the desegrega
tion of the faculty and staff in all schools under their
jurisdiction. The race or color of teachers or staff mem
bers shall not be a factor in the initial assignment to a
particular school, or class within a school, of teachers, ad
ministrators or other employees, and reasonable steps shall
be taken toward the elimination of segregation of teachers
and other staff personnel in the schools resulting from
prior assignments based on race or color.
6. Neither race nor color shall be a factor in the hiring,
retention or dismissal of teachers or other staff personnel
in the schools under the jurisdiction of the defendants.
Complaint in Intervention
25a
Plaintiff-intervenor further prays that this Court grant
such additional relief as the needs of justice may require,
including the costs and disbursements of this action.
Complaint in Intervention
Nicholas deB. K atzenbach
Attorney General
J ohn Doar
Assistant Attorney General
R obert H. Cowen
United States Attorney
Maceo W . H ubbard
Attorney
Department of Justice
26a
Verified Answer to Complaint in Intervention
(Filed February 21, 1966)
Now c o m e s the defendants, answering the Complaint In
Intervention of the United States of America, and say and
allege as follows:
1. Answering Paragraph 1, it is admitted that the United
States of America, by Nicholas deB. Katzenbaeh, Attorney
General, has intervened in this action, but the defendants
say that there has not been a denial by them, or any of them,
of the equal protection of the laws under the 14th Amend
ment to the United States Constitution to any persons on
account of race, color, religion, or national origin.
2. It is admitted that on or about 8 December 1965 the
original plaintiffs herein filed a Complaint against the
Franklin County Board of Education, seeking certain in
junctive relief against alleged conduct of said defendant
Franklin County Board of Education, but the defendants
say that all allegations of said Complaint alleging discrimi
nation by the defendant Franklin County Board of Educa
tion against the original plaintiffs because of race or color,
are without foundation and are untrue.
3. It is admitted that there is attached to the Complaint
in Intervention herein a certificate by Nicholas deB. Katzen-
bach, Attorney General, stating that in his judgment this
case is of general public importance.
4. Answering Paragraph 4, the defendants say that the
minor plaintiffs are presently enrolled in and are attend
ing the public schools of Franklin County, North Carolina,
and are citizens of the United States, but these defendants
27a
do not have sufficient knowledge or information to form a
belief as to whether or not all of the minor plaintiffs are
legal residents of Franklin County, North Carolina.
5. That Paragraph 5 is admitted.
6. That Paragraph 6 is admitted.
7. That Paragraph 7 is admitted.
8. Answering Paragraph 8, the defendants say, upon in
formation and belief, that prior to 1955 there was operated
in Franklin County a constitutional system of schools pro
viding separate schools for pupils of the colored race and
for pupils of the white race; that beginning with the 1956-57
school year, the Franklin County Board of Education en
rolled pupils in schools within the Franklin County Ad
ministrative Unit in accordance with the provisions of
Article 21 of Chapter 115 of the General Statutes of North
Carolina, and this procedure continued through the 1964-65
school year; that during the period from 1956 through the
1964-65 school year, according to the defendants’ informa
tion and belief, first grade pupils were enrolled initially in
the schools to which their parents or legal guardians pre
sented them for enrollment, and thereafter such pupils
were enrolled in the same schools, or in a school for which
the previously attended school was a “feeder school” , un
less they changed their places of residence or unless re
quests for transfers were made in their behalf, in which
cases the provisions of Article 21 of Chapter 115 of the
General Statutes of North Carolina were followed. Further
Answering said Paragraph, the defendants say that prior
to the 1965-66 school year 13 schools were operated by the
Verified Answer to Complaint in Intervention
28a
defendant Board of Education and that pursuant to the
procedure hereinbefore outlined in this Paragraph, colored
students attended seven of said schools and white students
attended six of said schools; that teachers in the aforesaid
schools were employed pursuant to applications filed by
said teachers, the nomination of said teachers by the princi
pals of the respective schools, and the election of said
teachers by the local school committees, all in full compli
ance with the laws of North Carolina. Except as herein
admitted, the allegations of Paragraph 8 are denied.
9. Answering Paragraph 9, the defendants say, upon in
formation and belief, that Federal funds are expended by
the defendant Board of Education in the operation of the
Franklin County School System, hut that all of said funds
are allocated to said defendant Board of Education by the
North Carolina State Board of Education, and that to the
present, insofar as the defendants have knowledge or in
formation, there have been no Federal funds received by
the defendant Board of Education directly from the United
States Department of Health, Education and Welfare.
10. Answering Paragraph 10, the defendants say that
pursuant to Title V I of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which
title embraces Section 601 and 602 of said Act, and pursuant
to certain rules and regulations issued by the United States
Department of Health, Education and Welfare, the defend
ant Board of Education filed with the Commissioner of Ed
ucation of the United States Department of Health,
Education and Welfare a Plan For Compliance with the
Civil Rights Act of 1964; and that pursuant to many con
ferences and several meetings between officers and repre
sentatives of the defendants and certain officials of the
Verified Answer to Complaint in Intervention
29a
United States Department of Health, Education and Wel
fare, and after adoption of several amendments to said
Plan, the same was approved by the United States Com
missioner of Education under date of 31 August 1965. Fur
ther answering said Paragraph, the defendants say that
the aforesaid Franklin County Plan for Compliance with
the Civil Rights Act of 1964 should not be designated a
“desegregation” plan, for that in the opinion of the defend
ants the Franklin County Board of Education has been
operating a school system in full compliance with the laws
of the State of North Carolina and of the United States, in
the manner hereinbefore set forth in this Answer regarding
the assignment of pupils.
11. That a copy of the Franklin County Plan for Com
pliance with the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is attached hereto,
marked Exhibit “A ” , and the same is asked to be taken as
a part of this Answer. That said Plan for Compliance pro
vided that for the 1965-66 school year the parents or legal
guardians of students being initially enrolled in the first
grade or being promoted to the second, ninth or twelfth
grades of schools in the Franklin County Administrative
Unit, were to be given a free choice as to which of these
schools they desired said pupils to be enrolled, and upon
the opening of said schools for the 1965-66 school year said
pupils were enrolled pursuant to free choices by their par
ents or legal guardians as expressed to the defendant Board
of Education. That the aforesaid Plan for Compliance fur
ther provided that for the 1966-67 school year and for sub
sequent years freedom of choice would be extended to all
grades in all schools of the Franklin County Administrative
Unit. Except as herein admitted, the allegations of Para
graph 11 are denied.
Verified Answer to Complaint in Intervention
30a
12. Answering Paragraph 12, the defendants say that
the provisions of the Franklin County Plan for Compliance
with the Civil Rights Act of 1964, copy of which is attached
hereto marked Exhibit “A ” and asked to be taken as a part
hereof, are clearly stated, and said provisions can be best
obtained from said Plan itself. Further answering said
Paragraph, the defendants say that the defendant Board of
Education adopted for the 1965-66 school year a policy that
lateral transfers in grades other than the first, second,
ninth and twelfth, would be allowed in cases where students
had changed their places of residence or desired to take a
course of study for which they would be qualified and which
would not be available to them in the school to which they
would normally be assigned under the provisions of the
approved Franklin County Plan for Compliance with the
Civil Rights Act of 1964. Except as herein admitted, the
allegations of Paragraph 12 are denied.
13. It is admitted that the Franklin County Board of
Education, prior to the time of the closing of the schools
for the 1964-65 school year, required parents or legal
guardians of children entitled to attend the schools of the
Franklin County Administrative Unit in the 1965-66 school
year and who were to be initially enrolled in the first grade
or who were promoted to the second, ninth and twelfth
grades for the 1965-66 school year, to make a free choice
of the schools within said Administrative Unit in behalf of
said children, and pursuant to said free choices, ten colored
children were assigned by the Franklin County Board of
Education for the 1965-66 school year to schools attended
by white children, and six of said colored children are now
attending schools with white children. It is further admitted
that the total of free choices and of applications for lateral
Verified Answer to Complaint in Intervention
31a
transfer was 61. Except as herein admitted, the allegations
of Paragraph 13 are denied.
14. That Paragraph 14 is denied, the fact being that ap
plications for lateral transfers were made in behalf of 36
colored pupils.
15. Answering Paragraph 15, the defendants say that
the parents or legal guardians of colored pupils in whose
behalf requests for lateral transfers were made, were given
full opportunity to state the reasons they desired said pu
pils to be assigned to another school, but none of said ap
plications stated that it was made for the purpose of en
abling a student to take a course of study which would not
be available in the school to which the pupil would be as
signed under the aforesaid Franklin County Plan for Com
pliance, nor did it show that there had been a change of
residence of such pupil; that the defendants verily believe
that the parents or legal guardians of said 36 pupils gave
the true and valid reasons for requesting lateral transfers,
and relied upon the good faith and truthfulness of said
parents or legal guardians in stating their reasons.
16. Answering Paragraph 16, the defendants say that on
or about 23 August 1965 the parents or legal guardians of
the students in whose behalf applications for lateral trans
fers had been made were informed that said students were
not in the four grades for which freedom of choice was
avaiable for the 1965-66 school year pursuant to the afore
said Franklin County Plan for Compliance as approved by
the United States Commissioner of Education, or otherwise
did not meet the criteria for lateral transfers, and said
pupils were assigned for the 1965-66 school year to schools
Verified Answer to Complaint in Intervention
32a
in accordance with provisions of the aforesaid Plan for
Compliance regarding grades other than the first, second,
ninth and twelfth grades.
17. Answering Paragraph 17, the defendants say that
there were 25 freedom of choice requests filed on behalf of
colored students entitled to be enrolled in the first, second,
ninth and twelfth grades for the 1965-66 school year in
schools operated by the Frankin County Board of Educa
tion. Except as herein admitted, the allegations of Para
graph 17 are denied.
18. That Paragraph 18 is denied.
19. That in the summer of 1965 some of the defendants
saw reports in the press of one or more instances of cross
burnings and the shooting of fire arms at a house, hut these
defendants have no knowledge or information that said
acts were related to the implementation of or action under
the Franklin County Plan for Compliance with the Civil
Eights Act of 1964. Further answering said paragraph,
these defendants specifically deny that they or any one con
nected with the Franklin County Schools committed any act
of intimidation by any means against any person whomso
ever. Except as herein admitted, the allegations of Para
graph 19 are denied.
20. Answering Paragraph 20, the defendants say that
prior to the opening of schools for the 1965-66 school year
the parents or legal guardians of eleven (11) pupils in
whose behalf freedom of choice of schools had been made,
requested the defendant Board of Education that said stu
dents be permitted to continue attending the schools that
they had been previously attending, and that said defendant
Verified Answer to Complaint in Intervention
33a
Board of Education, in order to allow said parents or legal
guardians full freedom of choice as to the schools the said
pupils would attend, granted said requests. Except as
herein admitted, the allegations of Paragraph 20 are denied.
21. That the allegations of Paragraph 21 are not clear
and accurate statements of the true facts, and these defend
ants therefore deny the same. Further answering said
Paragraph, these defendants aver that the students re
ferred to in said Paragraph are enrolled in and are attend
ing schools in which they were initially enrolled by their
parents or legal guardians, and that they are now being
educated to the full extent of the educational opportunities
afforded by the Franklin County Board of Education to all
students in the Franklin County School system without
discrimination on account of race or color.
22. That the allegations of Paragraph 22 are denied.
In f u r t h e r a n s w e r to the Complaint in Intervention here
in the defendants say that the Answer filed under date of
14 .January 1966 by the defendant Franklin County Board
of Education to the original Complaint herein, contains a
true statement of the facts therein set forth, and these de
fendants therefore refer to said Answer for an additional
and further answer to said Complaint in Intervention.
W h e r e f o r e , the defendants pray judgment of the Court:
1. That the plaintiffs’ prayer for an injunction be de
nied, and that the defendants be heard by the Court before
the entering of any order respecting a preliminary or per
manent injunction.
Verified Answer to Complaint in Intervention
34a
2. That all prayers in plaintiffs’ Complaint in Interven
tion be denied and that this action be dismissed.
3. That plaintiffs be taxed with the costs hereof, and that
the Conrt grant snch other, further and additional relief
to the defendants as may appear to the Court to be equitable
and just.
R e s p e c t f u l l y s u b m i t t e d , this the 19th day of February
1966.
Verified Answer to Complaint in Intervention
35a
The Court: The court is calling the case of Coppedge,
and others, and the United States of America against the
Franklin County Board of Education and others.
This matter, I understand, is before the court on a mo
tion for preliminary injunction. The position, apparently,
of the original plaintiffs and the United States are similar.
I will hear from such counsel as desire to be heard with
respect to the motion.
Mr. Fink: Your Honor, as you said, this is a motion for
a preliminary injunction. The government’s motion covers
approximately 30 children whose parents requested a trans
fer for their children to previously all-white schools in
Franklin County. They did this in the spring and summer
of 1965.
The government will show at this hearing that the Frank
lin County Board of Education entered into or submitted a
freedom-of-choice plan to the Department of Health, Educa
tion and Welfare in the Office of Education. This plan pro
vided for desegregation of four grades this year and all
of the grades of the schools for next year under a freedom-
of-choice plan.
Some children who were not in the fourt grades that
were directly covered by the freedom-of-choice provision
— 5—
for this year made application for a transfer to white
schools during the spring. These (requests for) transfers
were made pursuant to a provision in the plan which is
known as a lateral-transfer provision. The lateral-transfer
provision itself made no reference to any criteria to be
utilized by the defendant school board in making these ap
plications effective or in denying them.
— 4—
Transcript o f Hearing on Motion for
Preliminary Injunction
36a
It will be the government’s contention, and we intend to
prove, that the defendants never made known to the govern
ment or to any of the individual plaintiffs or any of the
other Negro children who are similarly situated that these
criteria existed. It will be our contention that they denied
all of these transfers on August 23rd and mailed these de
nials or, more accurately, they mailed an assignment to
these children on August 30th.
The Department of Health, Education and Welfare at
tempted to come to some sort of agreement as to these
children, because they had been under the impression when
they accepted this plan that these children were getting into
white schools. They were also under the impression that 61
children had applied for transfer, or their parents had ap
plied for a transfer for them, and that these children were
being transferred into white schools. In fact, ten children
— 6 —
actually did transfer, but only six of them remained.
In support of the legal side of the government’s position
we cite Patricia Rogers, et al, and Edgar P. Paul, et al; and
this was cited in the plaintiffs’ memorandum in support of
a preliminary injunction. This case was decided on Decem
ber 6, 1965, by the Supreme Court of the United States. In
this particular case the plaintiffs had been attempting to
enter white schools since approximately 1957. The particu
lar matter involved a motion to add plaintiffs to the case,
because the original plaintiffs had left school or were leav
ing school due to having graduated.
The Court: One, I believe, had.
Mr. Fink: Yes, sir. And I think one was about to gradu
ate.
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Preliminary Injunction
37a
The Court said—and this is what we consider the im
portant part of the holding—that: “Petitioners are en
titled to immediate relief; we have emphasized that ‘delays
in desegregating public school systems are no longer toler
able,’ ” citing Bradley v. School Board.
And said: “Pending the desegregation of the public high
schools of Fort Smith according to a general plan consistent
with this principle, petitioner and those similarly situated
— 7 —
shall be allowed immediate transfer to the high school that
has the more extensive curriculum and from which they
are excluded because of their race.”
They did this with particular reference to students who
had been assigned to a Negro high school “ on the basis of
their race” ; and that the assignments were “constitutionally
forbidden not only for the reasons stated in Brown v. Board
of Education, 347 U.S. 483, but also because petitioners are
thereby prevented from taking certain courses offered only
at another high school limited to white students . . . ”
The answers to the interrogatories in this case filed by
the defendants in answer to the original plaintiffs’ inter
rogatories show that there are different courses available at
the white schools in Franklin County.
Mr. Chambers: If it please the court, the plaintiffs’ posi
tion here is very similar or practically the same thing as
that of the government. We will show here that the Frank
lin County Board of Education has operated a completely
segregated school system; that it has proposed here some
thing to comply with the regulations of the Department of
Health, Education and Welfare, under the Title 6 provision
of the Civil Eights Act of 1964, a plan of compliance which
patently falls short of the requirements of the Brown de
Transcript of Hearing on Motion for
Preliminary Injunction
38a
cision and implementing decisions such as Watson v. City
of Memphis, and Golds v. Board of Education, and other
decisions.
The board has adopted a plan, as stated by the govern
ment, providing for free transfers in four grades and for
lateral transfers, as subsequently interpreted by the board,
upon certain criteria.
We submit, first of all, that the plan in limiting transfers
to four grades this year is far too little, and that under the
recent decisions of the Supreme Court the board is required
to go much faster in desegregating the system and is per
mitted to delay desegregation only upon showing some ad
ministrative burden. And we will show here that the board
has no administrative burden to delay desegregation of the
school system and to open up all twelve grades of the school
system for the 1965-66 school year.
We have requested the court in a subsequent motion, an
amendment to our initial motion for preliminary injunction
in which we requested that the thirty children who were
denied transfer be ordered immediately transferred to the
white schools, and enlargement of this motion to require
that the board now adopt a plan that will desegregate the
school system, requiring that the board adopt a plan pro
viding for geographical assignment of students and for
— 9 -
complete desegregation of the faculty and school personnel.
There are other factors which we will show here today that
should be considered and required of the board in its plan
of desegregation, such as athletics or extra-curricular activi
ties.
Transcript of Hearing on Motion for
Preliminary Injunction
— 8 —
39a
The board has denied the transfer of the 30 children in
volved in this suit by applying criteria not applied to white
students similarly situated; that is, that white students are
assigned to the schools, to which the Negro students have
requested transfer, without meeting or having applied to
them the criteria the board here seeks to apply to the Negro
students seeking to transfer; and we have cited cases in our
memorandum which prohibits the board from applying dif
ferent criteria to Negro students seeking to be assigned to
the same schools as white students similarly situated. This
is a patent discriminatory practice by the school board, and
we submit that the court should require the board to delete
it.
Thirdly, the board here has failed to include in its plan
and to provide for desegregation of its faculty. We submit
that the court should require the board complete desegrega
tion of its faculty for several reasons, one being that the
students are denied their rights, as required under the
Brown decision, by being assigned to the school system in
— 10—
which faculty members are assigned according to race;
secondly, a plan providing for freedom-of-choice is wholly
inadequate where faculty members are assigned according
to race; thirdly, the board cannot desegregate the school
system where it continues to maintain any discriminatory
practice such as faculty assignment by race. This would be
our position here today. And we propose to introduce the
answers to the interrogatories filed by the school board and
testimony of some of the plaintiffs involved in this pro
ceeding.
The Court: Now, Mr. Chambers, one question at this
point. You have stated that this plan of compliance falls
Transcript of Hearing on Motion for
Preliminary Injunction
40a
short of constitutional standards. Has the plan in this case
been submitted to and approved by the Department of
Health, Education and Welfare?
Mr. Chambers: The plan, I think, as attached to the
answer of the school board has been submitted to and ap
proved by the Department of Health, Education and Wel
fare.
The Court: You are attacking that plan?
Mr. Chambers: Yes, sir. Also, the board adopted a plan
in May which was not approved by the Department. The
Department approved an amended plan, which is the plan
attached to the answer.
— 11—
These children were denied transfers under the May
plan, not the plan approved by the Department. And 1
think the government has an affidavit to that effect: that
the denial here by the board of the applications by the plain
tiffs was not pursuant to the Department’s understanding of
the way the plan was to be administered.
Mr. Fink: That is correct.
The Court: Do counsel for the defendants desire to he
heard now in a preliminary statement, or do you wish to
reserve it until after the evidence has been offered?
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor please, I would like to
clarify one matter. I understood that the hearing today is
on the government’s motion for preliminary injunction;
and as to the original plaintiffs’ motion for preliminary
injunction, they served notice on me that today they would
move to amend their motion, which changes the complexion
of their original motion. So I would like to know to what
extent they propose to be heard on their motion for pre
Transcript of Hearing on Motion for
Preliminary Injunction
41a
liminary injunction. I have before me the one that was
served just a few days ago.
The Court: Well, I do not know the effect of the amend
ment. I have it, I believe, now before me.
— 12—
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, if I may, the amendment
was filed subsequent to our original motion for preliminary
injunction; and we interpreted the proposed amendment as
only changing the requested prayer for relief. We did not
intend to change the substantive evidence which we pro
pose to produce here today. If the court, however, feels that
it would delay the proceedings to permit us to produce the
evidence we propose to produce in order to obtain the re
quested relief and the motion for amendment, we would
withhold the motion for amending the original motion for
preliminary injunction and just proceed on the original
motion.
The Court: Well, of course, the evidence that is ad
duced by both sides has a direct bearing upon the relief
that’s granted; and it may be that your amendment, if it
enlarges the relief that you seek, may have an effect upon
the evidence that might be pertinent. Whether or not the
defendants would be prepared to meet that at this hearing
is a matter for them to say, unless you desire to withdraw
your amendment at this time.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, if it is the defendant’s posi
tion that it will change the substantive evidence that should
be produced, in order to protect them if they should be sur-
— 13—
prised by the proposed evidence that we would like to in
troduce to support the requested relief in that motion, we
Transcript of Hearing on Motion for
Preliminary Injunction
42a
will withdraw the motion and proceed on the original mo
tion that we filed.
The Court: I will hear from the defendants.
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor pleases, as I under
stand it, the government’s motion for preliminary injunc
tion has only at the moment to do with the assignment of
approximately 30 pupils to other schools. The original
motion for preliminary injunction filed by the original
plaintiffs asks substantially that.
This amendment asks that the board be directed to com
pletely reorganize the entire school system of Franklin
County, and so forth, which as I understand it is a total
assault on the freedom-of-choiee system or theory itself.
As I understand the government’s position, they are not at
tacking the freedom-of-choice theory or system but only at
tacking, you might say, the administration or handling of it.
In their amendment a completely different relief is sought.
The Court: Do you mean by that to say that you are not
prepared to meet that issue at this hearing at this time?
Mr. Yarborough: That is correct, sir. I do not think we
could meet that issue as to whether or not we should pre-
—14—
sent a complete plan of reorganizing the entire school sys
tem. We didn’t come prepared for that.
The Court: Well, I understand the plaintiffs to say, in
light of that, that they will withdraw that motion at this
time. So we will proceed on the original motion.
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor pleases, so far as stat
ing our position, Mr. Tucker has a point of law, but we
would prefer other than that to wait until they have com
pleted their evidence. Your Honor gave us that privilege,
I would assume.
Transcript of Hearing on Motion for
Preliminary Injunction
43a
The Court: All right.
Mr. Tucker: Your Honor, just briefly. We don’t want to
go into our side of it fully at this time, but I have read the
Rogers case that was mentioned, and I am sure your Honor
has too, and I want to call attention to the fact that that
was a case of not where the board had adopted the regula
tion of the Department of Health, Education and Welfare
limiting the minimum, but it was a case of grade-by-grade
integration which no one contends is a good-faith compli
ance nor fast enough.
We feel that under the law, as clearly expressed in the
case we have cited in our memorandum, which is a case
—15—
where the town officials, and so forth, in Alabama tried to
enjoin CORE from doing almost the same things that they
accuse the Franklin County Board of doing. In that case
they held that CORE could not be enjoined. The district
court did enjoin CORE, but the circuit court reversed and
in that reversal stated what is the converse of the rule of
law stated by the Department of Justice that the cases made
clear that this board is practicing segregation in an uncon
stitutional manner and that you should issue a preliminary
injunction. In that case cited in our memorandum, it is
clearly stated that the converse of that is true, and that the
court should not issue a preliminary injunction unless it is
clear that the board is violating the constitutional rights of
these plaintiffs.
And I want to point out also that in the plan as regards
to lateral transfers, although it does not specifically state
what procedure the board should adopt, it is in the plan
that the lateral transfers should be allowed upon specific
conditions set by the board; therefore, it is very obvious
Transcript of Hearing on Motion for
Preliminary Injunction
44a
that if the hoard adopted reasonable conditions, that they
were not only in the plan, but that it is good common sense
and good law, and we feel that the evidence in this case
will show—
The Court: Was any notice or publication given of such
- 1 6 -
rules or regulations as were adopted?
Mr. Tucker: I ’m sure there was. But I want Mr. Yar
borough or someone else to get into that phase of it.
And these defendants are not far, your Honor, from the
Holt case which went up in Raleigh in which Holt failed
to go before the hoard and allow them to make a prelimi
nary inquiry into some of the very things that are here as
to what curriculum was in Broughton that was not in Ligon.
And he did not do that. There wasn’t any plan that the
hoard there had any specific authority to ask Holt to come,
but it was considered a reasonable request on the part of
the board in order that they would he able to assess his
qualifications to a transfer; and it held that where he had
failed to do that, that not only preliminary injunetino be
not allowed hut permanent injunction not allowed.
The Court: Of course, the law is going to have relation
to the facts as they develop; and, of course, at the present
time I don’t know what the facts are.
Now, I wonder if the parties have made any effort to
stipulate the facts such as they can stipulate? Any agreed
facts in this case?
—17—
Mr. Tucker: I think so. Mr. Yarborough worked all day
over there, and he is more qualified along those lines.
Transcript of Hearing on Motion for
Preliminary Injunction
45a
The Court: Can it be submitted to the court on agreed
facts, or are the parties now prepared to present such evi
dence as you may have ?
Mr. Fink: As far as the government is concerned, your
Honor, we have shown the defendants’ attorney, Mr. Yar
borough, a copy of the documents we intend to put in, and
it is agreed as to the form of these documents. I am sure
that they are still reserving the right to challenge them on
the substantive grounds. But I don’t think we will have
a great deal of difficulty in putting in the evidence.
The Court: Now, will there he a separate proffer of evi
dence on the part of the original plaintiffs and the govern
ment?
Mr. Fink: There will he a separate proffer, but I don’t
believe we are going to he duplicating in that. I don’t be
lieve, also, as far as the government’s case is concerned
that it will be a very lengthy presentation.
The Court: Let’s hear from the original plaintiffs then.
You may offer your evidence.
Mr. Chambers: That is true of the plaintiffs too.
— 18—
Your Honor, the government has certain documents that
it plans to intrdouce, and we would like to get those in be
fore we present our part of the case.
The Court: You have no objection to the government
putting in its evidence first?
Mr. Chambers: None at all.
Mr. Fink: The government presents for identification—
The Court: You may just offer those as exhibits if there
is no objection. Is there going to be any objection? Now,
you have a perfect right to object, anybody does, of course,
to any evidence that goes in.
Transcript of Hearing on Motion for
Preliminary Injunction
46a
Mr. Yarborough: I don’t think there will be any objec
tion.
Mr. Fink: We offer as Government’s Exhibit No. 1: Gen
eral Statement of Policies Under Title 6 of the Civil Rights
Act of 1964 Respecting Desegregation of Elementary and
Secondary Schools, published by the United States Depart
ment of Health, Education and Welfare in the Office of
Education.
Mr. Yarborough: No objection.
Mr. Fink: As Mr. Yarborough has pointed out, your
Honor, this is attached to their answer.
—19—
The government offers Government’s Exhibit No. 2: A
letter from the Department of Health, Education and Wel
fare, Office of Education, dated February 4, 1966, and it is
signed by David Barus and notarized. It contains attach
ments, and it reads: “Attached hereto are true copies of
the Desegregation plan of Franklin County, North Caro
lina, Board of Education, as amended, with attachments
thereto as they appear in the files of this office.” Signed
David N. Barus, Deputy Director, Equal Educational Op
portunities Program.
Mr. Yarborough: I f your Honro please, may I ask Mr.
Fink one question regarding that? Is the letter from the
Office of the Commissioner of Education, dated 31 August,
attached to that? That modifies—
Mr. Fink: I am going to offer that right now.
Mr. Yarborough: Otherwise we would object to that as
not being the complete plan.
The Court: I understand he is going to offer that next.
Mr. Fink: I offer Government’s Exhibit No. 3 which is
the letter dated August 31, 1965, addressed to Mr. Warren
Transcript of Hearing on Motion for
Preliminary Injunction
47a
W. Smith, Superintendent of Franklin County Schools,
Louisburg, and it is signed by Francs Keppel. This is the
letter that Mr. Yarborough just mentioned. This was not
— 20—
attached to the affidavit.
I offer Government’s Exhibit No. 4 which is a letter from
Warren W. Smith, dated October 21, 1965, to Dr. Frances
Keppel. Dr. Frances Keppel is the U.S. Commissioner of
Education. This letter and the attachments show the break
down by race of the students in Franklin County as of
October 21st.
I would like to note parenthetically that the government
would show that there is a slight difference in the number
of students who are actually enrolled today. At that time
there were more Negro students enrolled in the white
schools.
The government offers as Government’s Exhibit No. 5
an affidavit of David S. Seeley who is the Acting Assistant
Commissioner for Equal Educational Opportunities, Unit
ed States Office of Education, dated February 3,1966. This
was served on the parties.
I would also like to call your Honor’s attention to an
affidavit that was filed in this case by the government on
January 20, 1966. This affidavit wTas signed by Luther Cop-
pedge. This was filed, and I assume that that would now
he a part of the record.
The Court: Very well, yes.
Mr. Fink: The last group of documents, your Honor,
will require a witness, so I would like to call Mr. Warren
—21—
W. Smith, Superintendent of the Franklin County Schools.
Transcript of Hearing on Motion for
Preliminary Injunction
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
— 22—
W arren W. Smith, called as a witness by the govern
ment, having been duly sworn, was examined and testified
as follows:
Direct Examination by Mr. Fink:
Q. Please state your name. A. Warren W. Smith.
Q. State your address, sir. A. 118 Person Street, Lou-
isburg, North Carolina.
Q. What is your occupation? A. Superintendent of the
Franklin County schools.
Q. H o w long have you held that position? A. Since July
1, 1963.
Q. And you have held it all the time since then? A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Smith, before the hearing in this matter today,
I showed you a list of documents, which I will hand to you
now—
The Court: Now, I expect you should mark those
for identification.
Mr. Fink: Yes, I will.
Mr. Clerk, I hand you twenty-one sheets of paper
that I would like to be marked Government’s Col-
—23-
lective Exhibit No. 6 for identification.
The Witness: Let me ask one question. This first
one—
Mr. Fink: Let me do it this way.
Q. I am going to hand you the papers marked Govern
ment’s Collective Exhibit No. 6 for identification. Are yon
familiar with these documents? A. Yes, sir.
49a
Q. Will you describe them, please? A. This document,
Page No. 1—
Q. Describe it by the name appearing. A. This is the
assignment for first-grade students for 1965-66 for begin
ners.
The Court: Let me see it for just one minute so
I will understand it.
Mr. Yarborough: I f your Honor please, may I
interrupt? Mr. Smith undertook to ask a question
about the first one. As I understand, that applies to
some person named Brown who is not involved, the
parent or the child, in this case.
Mr. Fink: This is only to put it in for a matter
of completeness. I am not editorializing on any of
them. I am taking what appeared in the Department
of Health, Education & Welfare files; and I assume
— 24—
Mr. Smith, in his identification of these, will point
out any of the problems.
Mr. Yarborough: What I am trying to say, if
your Honor pleases, in that particular one some
child named Brown, I believe, is not involved in this
case.
The Court: Maybe this will clarify it. Mr. Fink,
are you offering this only to demonstrate the type
of notice or form that is used in making first-grade
assignments ?
Mr. Fink: No, sir. I am taking this collective ex
hibit as the entire file of the Department of Health,
Education & Welfare with reference to the notice as
to the assignments of children.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
50a
Now, it is possible that there is no controvery as
to one or more of these children, hut to be fair to
the defendants, I have taken the whole file, and I
haven’t editorialized any of it. This is what was
presented to the Department of Health, Education &
Welfare.
The Court: Now, I understand that the defendant
says that the particular student whose name appears
on this first sheet of Government’s Collective Exhibit
No. 6 has no reference to any party to this suit. Is
that substantially correct?
—25—
Mr. Yarborough: That’s correct. So far as I am
able to say now, there has been no controversy with
regard to the admission or assignment of that partic
ular student to any school, so far as I know. Mr.
Smith or someone else will have to correct me if I
am wrong. It makes no particular difference, except
that it pertains to a student who is not involved in
this particular suit.
The Court: I get your point.
Now, what is the purpose now, Mr. Fink, of this
first sheet?
Mr. Fink: I say it is only included as a matter
of completeness so that there is no editorializing.
So far as we know, these are all the children that
the Franklin County Board of Education said had
been assigned in this manner, so far as we know in
Washington.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, the plaintiff might
say in addition that this is a class action, and we
think the exhibit shows the pattern that we hope
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
51a
to establish here of the Board’s adherence to a dis
criminatory practice.
Whether the person named is an individnal plain
tiff in the suit, the fact that this is a class action
and also the fact that this might be some evidence
—26—
to show a practice of discrimination, and we think
the exhibit would be pertinent.
Mr. Fink: My point, your Honor, is that I frankly
do not know whether that individual child has sub
sequently been admitted to a white school or not.
All I know is that these exhibits were submitted to
the Department of Health, Education & Welfare as
the exhibit showing who had been denied a transfer
from a Negro school to a white school, or had not
been admitted to a white school upon request.
The Court: Very well. I shall admit the exhibit,
and will give it such consideration as at the proper
time, if any, I think it deserves.
Mr. Yarborough: Now, pardon me for interrupt
ing, but I would like to correct Mr. Fink when he
uses the expression “white schools.” I think he will
find from our pleadings that we have no schools
designated as white, Negro, or colored. He says
“white schools.” Our Board of Education operates
no school designated as white or colored.
The Court: All right.
Mr. Fink: On the other hand, I would like to
—2 7 -
point out that the very next document in Collective
Exhibit No. 6 is that of Mr. and Mrs Luther Cop-
pedge, and the name of the child is Harold Douglas
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
52a
Coppedge, and lie most certainly is a part of this
controversy.
Now, in this collective exhibit other than this first
piece of paper, which is addressed to Lillie B. Brown,
all of these students are now requesting and demand
ing that they be admitted to schools of their choice;
and the government takes firm position as to each
and every one of these.
I am only saying that as to the first individual,
Lillie B. Brown, I do not know what her position
is right at this moment.
The Court: All right, yon may proceed. It is
admitted.
By Mr. FinTc:
Q. Mr. Smith, how many schools do yon operate in
Franklin County? A. Thirteen.
Q. How many of these schools have Negro children en
rolled in them? A. Two.
Q. Two children? A. Two schools.
- 2 8 -
Q. In the whole county? How many have Negro students
enrolled in them? A. It would he eight.
Q. Of these eight schools how many are entirely com
posed of Negro students? A. Six.
Q. There are no white students at all in these schools?
A. That’s right.
Q. How many of these schools are attended by white
students? A. Seven.
Q. How many of the seven schools that you have just
mentioned are attended solely by white students? A. Five.
Q. There are no Negroes, in other words, in five of these
schools? A. That’s right.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
53a
Q. That leaves two schools, is that correct, that have
Negro students enrolled at the present time with white stu
dents? A. That’s correct.
Q. How many Negro students are enrolled in each of
—29—
these two schools? A. There in one school and three in
another.
Q. And what are the names of these two school? A. The
Louisburg High School and the Bunn High School.
Q. What grades are these three children in in the Louis
burg school? A. The first, second, and twelfth.
Q. And in the Bunn school? A. Two in the first and one
in the twelfth.
Q. How many Negro students applied in the spring of
1965 for entrance into a white school? A. Sixty-one.
Q. How many students actually have entered in any
form into a white school in 1965 or 1966? A. Ten were
assigned. Eight actually showed up at the school.
Q. What happened to the others? You say “eight” , what
happened to the other two? A. They requested reassign
ment to schools where they had previously been.
Q. What that granted? A. The Board has not acted.
Q. The Board has not acted on the two? A. No.
Q. Where are they now? They are not in the white
- 3 0 -
schools, I take it, is that correct? A. No, they are not.
Q. So if the Board hasn’t acted, where are they? A. I
couldn’t say for sure.
Q. They have not re-entered into Negro schools? A. I ’m
not absolutely sure on all of them.
Q. In 1964-1965 for the 1964-1965 school year, how many
Negro students attended schools in Franklin County with
white students? A. None.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
54a
Q. How about in the school year of 1963-1964, how many
Negro students attended school with white students? A.
None.
Q. Do you have any knowledge as to the prior history
of the Franklin County schools with reference to how many
Negro students have applied for and have been admitted
to white schools? A. None that I know of.
Q. No Negro has—you mean no Negro has been admitted
to a white school prior to 1963-1964 to your knowledge?
A. To my knowledge, no.
Q. Tell me this: How many Negro students are now
riding on buses with white students to school? A. I guess
all six.
—31—
Q. Do they ride all of the way to school with white
students, or do they have to take a Negro bus part way, a
bus that Negro students ride on part way?
The Court: Now, just a moment. You say that all
six of the Negro students ride on buses with white
students. To what six do you refer? I understood
that there were eight Negroes enrolled in 1965-66 in
these school to which they applied for assignment.
By the Court:
Q. Now, you refer to six riding on buses? A. We have
six now in what were formerly white schools.
Q. I still do not have this clear. I understand that sixty-
one Negroes applied in 1965 for admission to other schools;
that ten were assigned; that eight enrolled. Now, yon
refer to six. Are those eight that enrolled still in the
schools? A. No. Six are still in formerly white schools.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
55a
Q. Then two of the original eight are no longer attending
the schools to which they were assigned? A. That’s cor
rect.
The Court: I see. You may continue.
By Mr. Fink:
Q. Mr. Smith, how many Negro teachers are now assigned
—32—
to teach in schools for white children, if any? A. None.
Q. How many white teachers are teaching in schools
where Negro students are the sole persons attending? That
is, schools solely attended by Negroes as students, are there
any white teachers assigned to any of these schools? A.
No. Classroom teachers, no.
Q. In 1963 and 1964 did the same situation exist? A.
Yes.
Q. In 1964-1965 did the same situation exist? A. Yes.
Q. Are there any courses that are taught at the Louis-
burg High School that are not taught at the Riverside High
School? A. I could not say for that without referring to
the list of subjects that I have in the interrogatories.
Q. Hid you compile the information in the answers to
the interrogatories? A. I had the high school supervisor
compile these.
Q. Under your direction? A. Yes.
Mr. Fink: I am not going to pursue this line, your
Honor, under the assumption that the plaintiff’s at
torney, Mr. Chambers, is going to submit those. Is
—33—
that- correct, Mr. Chambers?
Mr. Chambers: Yes, sir.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
56a
Warren W. Smith—for Government—Direct
By Mr. Fink:
Q. I would like to ask you one series of questions, sir,
one the administrative set-up of the schools. When do
you have a first marking period or grading period at which
time students are tested and graded by the schools'? A.
Every six weeks.
Q. Every six weeks? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Beginning at what date—beginning when—in Septem
ber or October— A. Well, the first day of school, the first
day of the 180; and then in six weeks from that, or thirty
school days from that date.
Q. Every thirty school days. And when did you start
school this year? A. September 8th.
Q. September 8th. My mathematics are very poor. When
would have been the last time you had a grading period—
what day? A. Approximately a week ago.
Q. One week ago? A. Approximately.
Q. That was approximately at the mid-point of your
- 3 4 -
school year, is that correct? A. Yes. However, let me
bring this out. The Christmas holidays were extended, but
the examination period was not extended. The examina
tions were given, really, before the end of the mid-year.
Q. Approximately when were the examinations given?
A. They were given the week of the 19th.
Q. Of what month? A. January.
By the Court:
Q. Is that a mid-year examination, or how do you describe
it? A. We consider it as the mid-year examination. The
week of the 17th, excuse me.
57a
Warren W. Smith—for Government—Direct
By Mr. Fink:
Q. The week of the 17th of January ? A. Yes, sir. The
17th through the 21st.
Q. I would like to know when would be your next exami
nation period? A. It will be about the first or second week
of March.
Q. And when will be your final examination period of
the year? A. It would be the last week of June.
Q. The last week in June? A. Yes.
—35—
Q. Have you ever had any student transfer into your
school system after October 1 of a particular school year
from another district or from outside the State of North
Carolina? A. I ’m sure we have.
Q. And what is the procedure followed with a student in
that situation? A. Well, the principal or the guidance
counselor or the homeroom teacher would try to map out
the schedule as best they can.
Q. Would the student be normally admitted to classes?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would he normally get credit for the full year, as
suming that he passes the examinations in the spring of
the school year? A. Yes, if he could pick up the subjects
that he had been taking in the other school.
Q. How would he pick up the subjects that he had been
taking in the other school? A. Well, they would have to
be offered in the school that the student was entering.
Q. Have you ever had a child who was in the last year
of school and you had a required course for graduation
—36—
that he couldn’t take that he hadn’t taken at the school that
he had come from; ever had that? Do you recollect that?
58a
The Court: Just one minute. (To reporter) Read
that question back.
Mr. Fink: Perhaps I could make it clearer.
(Last question read by reporter.)
Mr. Fink: I will withdraw that question and re
word it.
By Mr. Fink:
Q. Have you ever had children enrolled in your school,
after October 1st of the school year, in the last grade; that
is, in the 12th grade? Do you recall anyone who has ever
come into it? A. I do not recall that I have had.
Q. Have you ever had any white child who requested to
transfer to another school within the system after October
1st of the school year? A. Yes, when they moved from one
attendance area to another.
Q. Have you ever had that occur? A. Yes.
Q. Do you ever recall any of these students taking a
course at the school to which they transferred that had
not been available in the school from which they trans-
— 3 7 -
ferred? A. No, I do not recall.
Q. Mr. Smith, I would like to turn to this plan of desegre
gation that you and the Board submitted to the Department
of Health, Education and Welfare. Do you recall whether
at any date prior to September 1, 1965, either you or any
member of the Board informing the Department of Health,
Education & Welfare that it was going to utilize two criteria
in deciding whether or not to grant or to deny a lateral
transfer? A. Of course, we had many, many hours of tele
phone conversations with HEW officials, but nothing in
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
59a
writing except the original draft and the amendment. In
fact, they sent nothing hack to us in writing. Of course, we
talked many hours about the guidedines that were handed
down on April 30th or whatever the date was.
Q. Did you ever tell Mr. Seely or Mr. Keppel or any
member of their staff that you intended to utilize two
criteria, i.e., that any child that moved into a new district,
into a new school district, or that he wanted to take a
course unavailable to him, that either of these criteria were
included? A. No, not in my telephone conversations.
Mr. Fink: That is all the questions I have at this
time, your Honor.
—38—
Examination by Plaintiffs by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Smith, I have a copy of the answers filed by the
defendants to plaintiffs’ interrogatories which I would like
to have marked as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 1, and ask if you
were involved in the preparations of these answers filed
by the school board? A. Was I involved in— ?
The Court: Now, hasn’t he testified that they were
prepared under his supervision, in response to a
question by Mr. Fink?
You want the original marked?
Mr. Chambers: I want to substitute the original
for the copy that I have here.
The Court: You want the original filed?
Mr. Chambers: Yes, sir, I would like to file the
original.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Smith, while he is marking that, how long have
you been involved in the Franklin County school system in
any capacity? A. 1948— September 1948, since that date.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
60a
Q. Since September 1948? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you come into the school system as a school
- 3 9 -
teacher or in an administrative capacity? A. As a school
teacher.
Q. Were you subsequently promoted or elected as a prin
cipal of a school? A. Yes, sir.
Q. At what time? A. 1953.
Q. And when did you become principal—I mean super
intendent of the schools? A. July 1, 1963.
Q. Was your position from 1953 to 1963 that of principal
of one of the schools in the school system? A. Yes.
By the Court:
Q. Was it 1953 or 1956 that you were elected principal?
A. ’53.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Smith, are you familiar with any plan or steps
taken by the Franklin County Board of Education to de
segregate the Franklin County school system prior to the
school year 1965-66? A. Of course, the plan we followed
at that time was from the North Carolina school law.
Q. You mean the North Carolina Pupil Enrollment Act?
- 4 0 -
A. Yes.
Q. And that is the plan that you followed? A. Up
through this past school year.
Q. No other steps were taken by the Board to desegre
gate the school system, is that correct? A. We have had
meetings with principals, and so forth—integrated meet
ings.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
61a
Q. You have had integrated staff meetings, you mean1?
A. Yes.
Q. But nothing was done by the school board to deseg
regate the students assigned to the various schools? A.As
I say, we followed this plan prescribed by he North Caro
lina school law.
Q. Nor was any step taken to desegregate the faculty in
the various schools? A. Other than once again following
the North Carolina school law.
Q. And you have testified, have you not, that Negro
teachers were and have been assigned to Negro schools,
and white teachers to white schools? A. Once they had
made application for that school and nominated by the prin
cipal and elected by the committee and approved by the
superintendent and the Board of Education.
—41—
Q. And this has resulted in Negro teachers in Negro
schools and white teachers in white schools? A. Yes, sir,
Q. And it is also true that Negro students have been
assigned to Negro schools and white students to white
schools? A. What do you mean by— ?
Q. Under the Pupil Assignment Act. A. Yes.
Q. Now, in administering the North Carolina Pupil As
signment Act, you did not have any Negro student assigned
to a predominantly white school? A. No.
Q. Nor any white student assigned to a predominantly
Negro school? A. No.
Q. Now, how were students assigned for the 1965-66
school year who were not in grades 2, 4, 8, and 11? A.
Who were not in grades 2, 4, 8, and 11?
Q. The grades that you have here provided for being
affected by your plan of compliance. A. Those who would
be in grades 1, 2, 9, and 12, the grades you are referring
to. You are asking the other grades?
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
— 42—
Q. The other grades. A. In the remaining grades, each
student and the report card of each student, this informa
tion on lateral transfer, was inserted in the report card;
this went home to the parents, giving this information
about lateral transfers, and those stated that they could
apply or had the right to apply for lateral transfers by fill
ing out a certain form and turning it in by a certain time,
and so forth.
Q. Were they not notified by the report card, when dis
tributed, that they were assigned to the school they attended
the previous year? A. No.
Q. They were not? A. No.
Q. They were not given any assignment when the report
cards were distributed? A. No.
Q. When were they assigned? A. August 23rd.
Q. All of these students were assigned August the 23rd?
A. The students you are referring to, August 23rd.
Q. Now, on August 23, how were they assigned to the
schools? A. You are still referring to the—
—43—
Q. —the students in the grades not affected by the plan.
A. The lateral-transfer applications?
Q. No. I want to know how they were assigned by the
school board, whether or not they made requests for lateral
transfers. A. Those who had not made a request were
assigned to the schools which they had previously attended.
Q. And how were those assigned who made requests for
lateral transfer? A. If they did not meet the two criteria,
they were assigned to the school they previously attended.
Q. How many students did you have to make requests
for lateral tranfers? A. There were thirty-eight.
63a
Q. And how many of these thirty-eight were assigned to
the school requested in the application for lateral transfer?
A. None.
Q. All thirty-eight applicants were denied transfer? A.
Well, actually seven requested reassignment; seven of the
thirty-eight requested reassignment.
Q. Do you mean that they were assigned initially and
then requested reassignment? A. No. They requested re-
— 44—
assignment before they were actually assigned.
Q. Now, trying to explain your word “ reassign,” under
the plan you adopted you provided that students involved
in grades 1, 2, 8, and 11 would be permitted to indicate the
school they wanted to attend before any assignment was
made; is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. Now, did the same thing apply to the students in the
other grades? A. That they could choose the school that
they—No.
Mr. Yarborough: Your Honor, may I correct an
obvious error? Mr. Chambers used 1, 2, 8, and 11.
Actually it was 1, 2, 9, and 12.
Mr. Chambers: That’s correct. 1, 2, 9, and 12.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. Now, how were the students in the other grades, that
is the grades other than 1, 2, 9, and 12—were they permitted
to indicate the school they wanted to attend before they
were assigned? A. No, not unless they asked for the lat
eral transfer.
Q. Weren’t they really assigned and then permitted to
— 45-
Warren W. Smith-— for Government— Direct
ask for a lateral transfer? A. No.
64a
Q. Then they were permitted to indicate the school they
wanted to attend before they were assigned? A. If they
fit the two, they conld request it, of course, if they fitted the
two criteria.
Q. Now, I will read to you, Mr. Smith, paragraph D of
the Plan for Compliance which you have attached to the
answers to the interrogatories, which reads:
“At the end of the school year, pupils eligible to continue
in the same school except where covered by Part A and Part
C above, will be assigned thereto for the forthcoming year.
At a date fixed by the Board of Education and appropri
ately in advance of the time that assignments for the forth
coming year are made, there shall he made available in all
schools and at the office of the superintendent, appropriate
instructions setting forth in detail the procedure by which
parents or legal guardian of the child entitled to attend the
schools of Franklin County Administrative Unit may ex
ercise their right to apply for a transfer of such child to a
school of their choice.”
Does this mean that the child was initially assigned hack
to the same school and then permitted to request transfer?
- 4 6 -
A. No.
Q. Following your Plan of Compliance, you have testified
that ten Negro students were assigned to a formerly all-
white school? A. Yes.
Q. Eight of those students, you say, enrolled? A. I’m
pretty sure eight did enroll.
Q. And now six are enrolled in the schools? A. That’s
right. That, I do know.
Q. What happened to the other four? A. Well, one
never would go to the school which was assigned. In fact,
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
65a
there were two that would not go to the school to which
they were assigned.
Q. Do you know the names of those two students! A.
One was Neal, a twelfth-grade student; and I cannot think
of the other name—he was a second grade student.
Q. Was Neal a Negro student! A. Yes.
Q. Was he assigned to a Negro school! A. He was as
signed to the Louisburg school.
Q. And the Louisburg school is a predominantly white
school! A. Yes.
Q. And the student in the second grade, was that student
—47—
a Negro student? A. Yes.
Q. Was that student assigned to a predominantly Negro
or predominantly white school? A. White.
Q. And these two students, you say, did not go to the
school to which they were assigned? A. To my knowledge,
they never actually attended the predominantly white school.
Q. Are they still in the school system? A. I ’m not sure
about the one in the twelfth grade; I ’m not sure whether he
is still in the school system at all.
Q. What about the one in the second grade? A. I ’m
pretty sure that that student is in the Riverside School, but
I do not know this.
Q. And the Riverside School is a predominantly Negro
school? A. Yes.
Q. What happened to the other two students? A. They
requested to go back to the same school.
Q. To the same school? A. Yes, sir, the one they at
tended the previous year.
Q. Now, was this subsequent to October 1st of 1965 or
—48—
prior to October 1st of 1965? A. This was prior to.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
66a
Q. Prior to? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know whether this was during the month of
September? A. Pm pretty sure it was during the month
of September.
Q. After school had opened? A. Yes.
Q. And the other two students requested to go back to a
Negro school? A. Yes.
Q. Did the Board act on these two applications? A. No,
they have not acted on those yet.
Q. And those two students are now attending a Negro
school? A. I assume they are; I do not know.
Q. How were they admitted? A. I don’t know.
Q. But they are attending predominantly Negro schools
now? A. I do not know for sure.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, are you required under the North
Carolina law to keep attendance records of students? A.
- 4 9 -
Yes. The principals, of course, keep the attendance record
and turn it into the county office.
Q. Are you also required to report truancy of students?
A. We have an attendance counselor who works with the
principal and the teachers.
Q. Are you required to report to the North Carolina State
Board of Education any absences of students in your school
system? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you reported the absence of these four students?
A. Of course, individually, I do not know. The principal
certifies this and turns it in to me. These students Pm sure
—Pm almost positive they were marked absent in the
school to which they were assigned.
Q. Do you know why the four students of the ten did not
go to the predominantly white school to which they were
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
67a
assigned! A. I do not know for sure. I know what one
or two told me.
Q. You do not know why they did not go? A. They said
that—
Q. No. I just want to know if you know.
Mr. Yarborough: He said he knew what he was
—50—
told.
The Witness: I know what I was told.
Mr. Chambers: I know. But if you don’t know.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. According to Exhibit B attached to the answers to
interrogatories filed by the defendants, it is indicated that
schools listed as predominantly white schools have some
courses not offered by schools listed as predominantly Ne
gro schools; is that true? A. Yes. And it would work in
reverse also.
Q. You mean that some Negro schools would have some
courses that some white schools would not have? A. Yes.
Q. Now, of the high schools, would you indicate the
schools which are predominantly white and the schools
which are predominantly Negro. A. Yes. Bunn High
School is predominantly white; Edward Best High School
is predominantly white; Epsom High School is predomi
nantly white; Gethsemane High School is predominantly
Negro. Gold Sand School is predominantly white; Louis-
burg High School is predominantly white; Perry’s School
is predominantly Negro; Youngsville High School is pre
dominantly white; Riverside High School is predominantly
Negro.
Warren W. Smith—for Government— Direct
68a
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
— 51—
Q. Do you know the schools to which the plaintiffs in
volved in this action requested transfer? A. Louisburg
School, the Edward Best School, and the Bunn School.
Q. Do you know the schools to which these plaintiffs were
assigned? A. The Perry’s School, Cedar Street School,
Riverside School, and the Gethsemane School.
Q. Did any of the plaintiffs request reassignment to
Louisburg High School? A. Yes.
Q. Isn’t it true, Mr. Smith, that the predominantly white
schools that you named here offer courses not offered at
the schools you stated the Negro plaintiffs here were as
signed? A. I would have to look at that list again. I
could not answer this without tabulating.
Q. What do you mean by “ tabulating” ? A. Comparing
them and see which subjects would be offered in one and
not be offered in the other.
The Court: It this information concerning which
you have asked set out in the exhibit?
Mr. Chambers: It is set out in the exhibit, yes, sir.
By Mr. Chambers:
- 52-
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, did you have anything to do with
the preparation of the Plan of Compliance submitted by
the Board of Education to the Department of Health, Edu
cation & Welfare? A. Yes.
Q. Did you have anything to do in the determination of
limiting the free transfers to the four grades for this year!
A. Yes, I was working on the committee drafting this plan.
Q. Do you know why the Board limited free transfers at
69a
this time to four grades? A. We were following the guide
lines set up by HEW.
Q. When you say that you were following the guide-lines
set up by HEW, do you mean by that the plan or the
guide-lines adopted by HEW indicating that some schools
may have four grades for desegregation per year; is that
what you followed? A. Yes. And we were trying to get a
plan whereby we could operate our schools in Franklin
County.
Q. Now, what do you mean by getting a plan by which
you could operate your schools in Franklin County? A.
A plan whereby—a feasible plan in our opinion that was
best for most of the people in Franklin County.
—53—
Q. Now, what do you mean by a feasible plan? A. One
that would work.
Q. Could you elaborate a bit more on what you mean
by one that would work? A. Well, first of all, we had to
satisfy HEW officials.
Q. And if you satisfied HEW, that is all you would seek
to do? A. Well, that was the first objective.
Q. Now, you could have opened all twelve grades for free
transfers for this year, could you not? A. Yes, I guess so.
Q. In other words, HEW’s regulations do not prohibit
you from permitting transfers in all grades, do they? A.
No.
Q. You did not, however, elect to do that? A. No.
Q. You decided to limit free transfers to four grades?
A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Yarborough: I f your Honor please, may I
ask counsel to whom he is referring when he says
“you decided” ? Does he mean the witness or the
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
70a
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
Board of Education, or what? I think the record
—54—
should be clear.
Mr. Chambers: I will withdraw that question.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Smith, are you, as superintendent of the Franklin
County school system, in attendance at school board meet
ings? A. Yes.
Q. Do you hold any capacity with the school board? A.
Secretary to the Board of Education.
Q. And you take down the minutes of the school board?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you in attendance at the school board meetings
during the school board’s discussion of the proposed plan
of compliance with Title 6? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And were you in attendance at each of those meet
ings? A. Yes.
Q. Are you not, Mr. Smith, the principal draftsman of
the plan adopted by the board and presented to the Depart
ment of HEW? A. No, sir.
Q. Who else participated with you in the drafting of that
- 5 5 -
plan? A. The committee which was appointed by the
board.
Q. Consisting of board members? A. A board member,
yes.
Q. And who else? A. The attorney to the board, and
the superintendent or secretary.
Q. Did you attend each of those committee meetings!
A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, you indicated a moment ago that
you were trying to adopt a plan which would be feasible.
71a
Could you explain to the court why a plan providing for
free transfers in all twelve grades would not be feasible?
Mr. Yarborough: We object to that question, if
your Honor please. He can’t speak for the board;
he can only speak for himself.
The Court: Well, objection overruled. I will hear
what he has to say.
A. Ask your question again.
(Last question read by reporter.)
A. I don’t know.
Q. You don’t know. During your attendance at the meet
ings of the committee and the meetings of the board in
considering the plan adopted and presented to the Depart
ment, did you discuss adopting a plan providing for free
- 5 6 -
transfers in all twelve grades? A. All types of plans, yes.
Q. And it was the consensus of the committee meetings
and the board meetings that you would not adopt such a
plan? A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you also feel that you should not adopt a
plan providing for free transfers in the twelve grades? A.
Was that my feelings?
Q. Yes. A. Yes.
Q. What is the basis for your feelings? A. The basis
of mine is the transition year, the first year we have had
integration of the schools.
Q. Do you mean that if you were to provide for free
transfers in all twelve grades, you might have some oppo
sition from people in the community? A. Well, we don’t
know.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
72a
Q. You might have? A. Might.
Q. Did you feel that by adopting a more limited plan
you would limit the number of transfers of Negro students
to formerly all-white schools? A. We had no way, really,
of knowing.
- 5 7 -
Q. Wasn’t that your intention? A. I don’t know that it
was.
Q. As the plan has worked, had you adopted a plan pro
viding for free transfers in all twelve grades, you would
have had more than six students now in formerly all-white
schools, would you not?
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
A. I don’t know.
Mr. Tucker: He doesn’t know.
The Court: Objection sustained. That calls for a
conclusion that I don’t know whether he is in a posi
tion to make.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Smith, if the hoard had adopted a plan providing
for free transfers in all twelve grades, and with the num
ber of applicants who applied, more would have been
eligible for transfers than the ten that were approved by
the board, is that not correct? A. If we had free choice.
Q. Transfers in all grades? A. Yes.
Q. And by adopting the four grades, you had fewer stu
dents who satisfied your criteria for transfer?
Mr. Yarborough: We object to “fewer,” if the
court pleases.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
— 58—
The Court: Yes. I think that is a matter of argu
ment rather than testimony of the witness.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, you indicated in the board’s answer
to plaintiffs’ interrogatories that the board would prefer
to continue following its prior practice in assigning teachers
and school personnel? A. Yes.
Q. And it’s stated here that the board feels that this is
the better method for employment and assignment of
teachers and school personnel. Do you know what basis the
board used for this determination? A. It’s an opinion that
we feel.
Q. Do you know the basis for the board’s opinion? A. I
would say for the person to apply for the job where they
want to teach.
Q. But do you know the basis of the board’s opinion that
it would be better to follow your prior practice? A. I
would say it would be hard to fill teaching positions if we
did not follow it.
Q. Why would it be difficult to fill teaching positions? A.
I would say most anyone would like to know where they are
going to work when they sign a contract.
— 59—
Q. Has the board considered, to your knowledge, reas
signment of teachers on a non-racial basis? A. I ’m sure
it has been considered.
Q. Was it considered at an official board meeting at
which you were in attendance? A. Yes, it has been dis
cussed.
Q. And was it not decided that the board would not pur
sue that practice of making non-racial assignments of teach
74a
ers? A. I don’t know that any definite decision was
reached.
Q. At least you have not followed that practice?
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor please, we object
to that because I think the witness testified that
teachers are assigned pursuant to their applications.
There is no evidence at all that the hoard makes any
assignment except pursuant to the teacher’s request
for employment in a particular school.
The Court: Yes, I understood that to he his testi
mony. You may continue.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Smith, has the board ever adopted an official
policy that teachers may be employed and assigned on a
non-raeial basis, to your knowledge? A. Well, there was
- 6 0 -
the plan itself.
Q. I mean has the board, to your knowledge, adopted a
policy at any stage of which you are familiar to employ and
assign teachers on a non-racial basis? A. I do not know
of such a policy.
Q. You do not know of such a policy. Has the hoard, to
your knowledge, advised teachers and school personnel in
the system that teachers may he employed and assigned on
a non-racial basis? A. No.
Q. You have not indicated to the principals of the schools
nor to the teachers in the school system that the hoard will
consider applications and will assign teachers without re
gard to their race ? A. The principals have been instructed
that the teachers make applications for the schools in which
they want to teach.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
75a
Q. But you have not instructed the principals that a
Negro teacher, for instance, may apply and be assigned to
a predominantly white school, or that a white teacher may
apply and be assigned to a predominantly Negro school?
A. Not specifically, but they apply for the school in which
they want to teach.
Q. And you have followed the practice, as you have
—61—
stated, which has resulted in Negro teachers in predomi
nantly Negro schools and white teachers in predominantly
white schools?
The Court: I think he has sufficiently covered that
territory.
Q. One final question, Mr. Smith, that would go back to
your previous testimony. You stated that you followed the
North Carolina Pupil Enrollment Plan prior to this school
year? A. Yes.
Q. Did the board at any time prior to this school year
advise Negro students that they could apply and be as
signed to any school of their choice? A. Not that I know
about.
Q. To your knowledge no such notice was made at any
time prior to the 1965-66 school year? A. No.
Q. Mr. Smith, do you know of any reason why the Negro
students involved in this proceeding as plaintiffs should not
be assigned to the school of their choice? A. You mean at
this time?
Q. At this time. A. I think transferring at any time
through the year is not in the best interest of a student as
far as subject matter is concerned. Each teacher teaches at
a different rate, would be in a different place in the subject
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
—62—
or the book that they would be taking; and it’s always the
possibility that you could not get the same subjects you
were taking at one school if you transferred to another
school.
Q, You do not admit of disparity in the quality of educa
tion offered by the schools? A. No.
Q. And if the Negro student decided to exercise his
choice, if permitted, should it not be his right to decide
whether he wants to transfer at this stage?
Mr. Yarborough: We object, if the court pleases.
Whether or not it should be the pupil’s right to de
cide, I think would he a question of argument.
The Court: Yes, I think so.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Smith, is there any administrative problem that
the board would incur if these students were permitted to
transfer at this stage? A. Well, there are always adminis
trative problems when you have transfers and that sort of
thing.
Q. Would they be very serious administrative problems?
A. Well, it would be if they could not get the subjects in
—6 3 -
the school to which they transferred; and transportation.
Q. If they could get the subjects, there would not he any
serious administrative problems? A. No, not any serious.
Q. And the school system has agreed in its plan to pro
vide transportation for all students regardless of race? A.
I forget how that is worded, but those eligible to be trans
ported, or something, to that school. In other words, we
77a
would not necessarily run all the way across the county for
an isolated case.
Q. You do provide transportation for students living
more than one-and-a-half miles from the school to which
they are assigned? A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, would there be any administrative
problem were the board to adopt a plan for this year pro
viding for free transfers in all grades? A. Would there
he any problems ?
Q. Administrative problems. A. Yes.
Q. What would they be, Mr. Smith? A. Well, the trans
portation and schedules.
Q. Transportation and schedules. Is there any other
- 6 4 -
problem? A. Well, I ’m sure there are many, many more
problems. I can’t think of all of them now.
Q. When you speak of transportation, do you mean rout
ing the buses? A. There would always be that problem.
Q. And you would have that problem at any time during
the year, would you not? A. You mean transportation?
Q. Transportation. A. Yes.
Q. The routing of buses? A. Oh, yes.
Q. And you would have the other problem you refer to
at any time during the year? A. What do you mean—
schedules?
Q. Yes. A. Being able to get the subjects?
Q. Right. A. Yes.
Q. So there wouldn’t be any unusual administrative prob
lem that you wouldn’t have at any stage of the year? A.
No.
Q. Mr. Smith, isn’t it true that the same thing would have
been the case had you provided for free transfers in all
- 6 5 -
grades for this year? A. You mean in the very beginning?
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
78a
Q. In the very beginning. A. No, I wouldn’t—
Q. That the board wouldn’t have had any serious ad
ministrative problems? A. No, I doubt it.
Q. It wouldn’t have had? A. No. Of course, I have no
way of knowing.
Q. But you know of no administrative problem that you
would have had? A. No.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, I have about two or
three other questions I would like to ask, and I will
be through with this.
The Court: All right.
Q. Mr. Smith, the white students assigned to the schools
to which the plaintiffs involved in this proceeding requested
transfer were not required to be subjected to the same cri
teria you have applied to the Negro applicants, were they?
A. What do you mean—lateral transfers ?
Q. No. I mean the white students initially assigned and
who were assigned this year to, for instance, the Louisburg
School, were not required to show that they could obtain a
— 66-
course only at the Louisburg School? A. You mean in
the— ?
Mr. Tucker: —lateral transfer?
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. No. I ’m talking about the white students now assigned
to the Louisburg School were not required to show that
they could obtain some course only at the Louisburg School?
A. You mean the original assignment?
Q. The original assignment. A. No.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
79a
Q. They were assigned there initially? A. Yes.
Q. And they did not have to pass muster with some cri
teria? A. Those who were already in the school?
Q. Right. And those who were assigned for this school
year were not required to be subjected to the criteria that
you seek to apply to those requesting lateral transfer? A.
Those who were in the school the previous year.
Q. Mr. Smith, isn’t it true that the procedure formerly
followed by the board in utilizing the school committees has
now been discontinued? A. Yes.
—67—
Q. In the Franklin County school system? A. Yes.
Q. Isn’t it true that a teacher now applies to the school
system and is assigned by the school system to a particular
school? A. Yes, I would say that the board would assign.
Mr. Chambers: No further questions.
Mr. Fink: Your Honor, may I have the witness
for just a moment ? I would like to clear up a couple
of questions.
The Court: All right.
Further Direct Examination by Mr. Fink:
Q. Mr. Smith, how did you inform the Negro plaintiffs
in this lawsuit of their eligibility to make an application
for a transfer to a white school during the spring of 1965?
A. This information was put in the child’s report card.
Those who were in the grades other than the freedom of
choice grades, this information was put in the report card
saying that they would fill out this preferential form and
have it in by a certain time, turn it in to the principal or
to the office of the superintendent.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
80a
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
— 68—
Q. Did it spell out at this time in the report card any
criteria which the school board would utilize in granting
or denying these applications? A. No.
Q. Did you subsequently publish in a local newspaper or
by any other means the criteria that were going to be util
ized? A. No.
Q. Did you inform the applicants of the criteria at any
time before they made the application? A. No.
Q. Did you inform the principals to so inform the par
ents of the applicant? A. The principals were informed
of the procedure, and so forth. The criteria, specifically,
no.
Q. Did you, personally, ever tell any of the plaintiffs
prior to the end of August that you were going to utilize
two criteria? A. No. No one ever asked me for this infor
mation, and no one ever asked the principals for this in
formation to my knowledge.
Q. And to your knowledge, did you ever tell them or
did any of the principals ever tell them? A. I did not.
I don’t know whether the principals did.
—6 9 -
Q. During the questions put to you by Mr. Chambers,
he mentioned that a child named Neal withdrew from a
white school—I believe the Riverside School—before he
actually entered? A. That was a twelfth-grade student.
Q. Yes. And what was his first name? A. I can’t recall.
Q. Would it be Lynwood? A. It seems to me that might
be one.
Q. Did he have a brother named Christopher? A. I be
lieve so.
Q. Did Christopher actually enroll? A. The ninth-grade
student actually enrolled, but I don’t know which was which.
81a
Q. But one of the Neals enrolled in September ? A. Yes.
Q. Is he still in school now! A. So far as I know.
Q. Is he in a white school? A. So far as I know he is
in the Riverside School, but I ’m not sure of that.
Q. He’s in the Riverside School, which is a Negro school?
A. Yes.
— 70—
Q. He is not in the Louisburg School? A. He is not in
the Louisburg School. I would not say for sure whether
he’s in the Riverside School.
(Two-page document marked for identification
as Government’s Exhibit No. 7.)
Mr. Yarborough: Let the clerk show that is in two
parts, two pages.
Mr. Fink: I ’ll make that clear.
By Mr. Fink:
Q. I hand you, sir, Government’s Exhibit No. 7 for iden
tification. Do you recognize this document? A. Yes.
Q. What does the first page purport to be? A. Request
for reassignment by Willie M. Neal for his two sons to go
back to the Riverside School where they were assigned the
previous year.
Q. And there is a second page, is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. And would you please describe that? A. Well, the
reason—
Q. I mean the second page, sir. A. You asked me to
describe the second page. I can’t very well describe it with-
—7 1 -
out giving this. The reason given by Willie Neal stated for
Lynwood Neal—I believe that is the twelfth-grade student
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Direct
82a
—that the “ child would not attend Louisburg School but
will attend Riverside.”
Then the other child who was in the ninth grade, I be
lieve Christopher Neal: “ Only one in his class at Louisburg
who transferred from Riverside.” And it says: “Intimi
dated by students.”
Then I have a letter from the principal of the Louisburg
School.
Q. That is the second page of Government’s Exhibit No.
7; is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. On that page isn’t it correct that Mr. Fox, the prin
cipal, in essence denied— A. (Reading from Page 2 of
G-7) “After thorough investigation I can not find one mem
ber of the Faculty at Louisburg who has seen or heard of
any form of intimidation to Christopher Neal before or
during his attendance at this school. In my opinion the
boy was completely left alone. He was given every oppor
tunity to adjust to his new situation, but it appeared to me
that he was unhappy with the idea of coming to Louisburg
School from the beginning. When talking with Christo
pher’s father after he decided to transfer, his father said
- 7 2 -
the boy was merely lonesome for his friends and classmates
who were at Riverside. He made no mention of any intimi
dation at that time.”
Mr. Fink: Your Honor, at this time I offer Gov
ernment’s Exhibit No. 7.
The Court: All right.
Mr. Fink: I have no further questions.
Warren W. Smith—for Government— Direct
83a
Cross Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Smith, with reference to the exhibit (G-6) con
taining the assignment of one Lillie B. Brown, do you have
any recollection at all as to whether or not there has been
any controversy about the assignment of that child to the
first grade of the Riverside School? A. No, none whatso
ever.
Q. Mr. Smith, pursuant to Mr. Fink’s questioning of you,
there are a few matters I would like to ask you about.
When did the Franklin County Board of Education send
out these notices of the request for transfers? A.May 10,
1965.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, under what date did the Franklin
County Board of Education first submit a draft of its Plan
—73—
for Compliance to the Office of Education in Washington?
A. April the 27th was the draft. The preliminary draft you
are referring to?
Q. Yes, sir. A. The preliminary draft was sent to Wash
ington, D.C., to Mr. Allen Lesser.
By the Court:
Q. For my information, who is he, or what is he con
nected with? A. He is an HEW official.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. I mean when was the first plan adopted by the board?
A. May 3, 1965.
Q. Mr. Smith, do you recall when the Board of Education
received a copy of one of the government’s exhibits (G-l)
entitled “General Statement of Policies,” and so forth, is
sued by the U.S. Department of Health, Education & Wei-
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Cross
84a
fare! A. A copy came from the State Department of
Public Instruction sometime in May, a mimeographed copy
of these rules, and so on.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, the draft of the Plan for Compliance
submitted under date of 3 May 1965 to HEW provided, did
—74—
it not, that free choice of schools would be made or awarded
or granted to students entering the first, the second, the
ninth, or the twelfth grades, for the 1965-66 school year!
A. Yes.
Q. This paper here, General Statement of Policies, one
of the government’s exhibits, do you recall in that what
grades that required for desegregation! A. Yes. It was
the—
Mr. Chambers: I would like to object to that ques
tion, your Honor. As I understand it, he is asking
him what did HEW require; and I think that that
policy statement is self-explanatory; and I think the
question carries a bit more than the policy plan pro
vides.
The Court: Let me see if I can find that. You
started to make a comment, Mr. Yarborough!
Mr. Yarborough: Yes, I say that it is in evidence
both attached to our answer, and Mr. Fink also put
it in as one of the government’s exhibits.
The Court: It is Government’s Exhibit 1 ,1 believe.
Mr. Yarborough: And I just wanted to ask Mr.
Smith the four grades required under this that the
—75-
board—
The Court: All right. Go ahead and rephrase your
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Cross
85a
question and point out what you have reference to
in here.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Smith, in Government’s Exhibit 1, which is Ex
hibit A attached to the Board of Education’s answer to the
original complaint here, will you state what grades the
Office of Education or the Department of HEW required to
be desegregated or freedom of choice given for the school
year 1965-66? A. The first grade, and the first and last
grade of high school.
Q. In Franklin County what would that be? A. That
would be the first, ninth and twelfth, and then you could
choose any other grade.
Q. And what other grade did the Board of Education
choose? A. The second grade.
Q. And in the notices sent out on 10 May 1965, state
whether or not pupils planning to enter those four grades
—first, second, ninth, or twelfth—for the 1965-66 school
year were given freedom of choice, the parents or guardians
of such pupils? A. Yes.
—76—
The Court: Is a copy of that notice attached to
any of the pleadings, or has it been offered in evi
dence?
The Witness: The freedom of choice grades ?
The Court: No. The notice to which Mr. Yar
borough refers which was furnished to the parents.
Mr. Fink: Your Honor, it is attached as a part
of Government’s Exhibit 2. That is the “School Pref
erential Form.”
Mr. Yarborough: It is Form B-3 attached to
Government’s Exhibit 2.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Cross
86a
Warren W. Smith—for Government—Cross
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, in this form B-3 attached to Govern
ment’s Exhibit 2, state whether or not that is the form or
notice sent to the parents or persons purporting to be legal
guardian of pupils entering the second, ninth, or twelfth
grades for the 1965-66 school year? A. Yes, sir, this is
the type of form.
Q. Now, on that form at the bottom there is a blank,
simple statement requesting the grade and the school to
which the parent or guardian wanted that child to be as
signed? A. Yes, sir.
Q. To whom were those notices sent and by what means?
—77—
A. These notices were inserted in the report card of all
students who were in the first, eighth, and eleventh grades,
and they were sent to the parents; and this was inserted
in the report card on May 10th.
Q. Now, pursuant to that, do you recall how many appli
cations of so-called free choice you received? A. Twenty-
three.
Q. And that, of course, did not apply to pupils planning
to enter the first grade, because they were not then in
school? A. That’s right.
Q. But was a freedom of choice allowed to parents or
legal guardian of pupils entering the first grade? A. Yes.
Q. I believe notice of that was published in the Franklin
Times as a paid advertisement? A. That’s right. It was
the first week in May, May 4th and May 6th.
Mr. Chambers: May I ask for some explanation or
clarification? You mean notice of what?
Mr. Yarborough: To all the parents or legal
guardians of all persons planning to enter their child
87a
in the first grade of the Franklin County school
system for the year 1965-66.
Q. And what other method did you use to get word to
—78—
those parents or legal guardians of those entering the first
grade? A. The students who were in school, if they knew
of someone who would be a beginner for the 1965-66 school
year.
Q. Those who had younger brothers and sisters planning
to enter? A. Yes.
»
Mr. Pearson: One question, Judge Butler. Don’t
you think we should have a copy of that notice which
was published in the newspaper?
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. It was published in two issues? A. That’s right.
Mr. Yarborough: I don’t have one with me. I can
provide one.
The Court: Well, I shall suggest to counsel to the
Board that you find a copy of the notice that was
published on May 4th and May 6th.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Smith, attached to Government’s Exhibit No. 2
just prior to Form B-3, is that the letter that was sent to
all known persons having children that might enter the
first grade ? A. Yes.
—79—
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, state whether or not those parents
were notified of a complete free choice of schools for those
first graders to enter? A. Yes.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Cross
88a
Q. Do you recall how many choices were made? A.
Three.
Q. Of colored to formerly white schools? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, I know we are try
ing to expedite these proceedings, but we object to
counsel leading, testifying you might say.
Mr. Tucker: It‘s his witness, your Honor.
Mr. Chambers: We grant that, your Honor, but
we think that this is a little bit more than leading.
The Court: Well, just try to avoid leading if
you can.
By the Court:
Q. How many did you say received in response to this
letter, that is requests for reassignment? A. Well, ac
tually, this is the first grade. We had over 500 of these
in all. But what was your question?
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Well, first, how many responses did you receive?
—8 0 -
A. Over 500.
By the Court:
Q. Well, what do you mean by “ responses” ? You mean
requests ? A. Beginners.
Q. Requests for assignment? A. That’s right.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. And out of that how many colored children were
there who sought initial assignment in the first grade of
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Cross
89a
a school that had formerly been attended by only white
children? A. Three.
Q. Mr. Smith, state whether or not those three were
granted? A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, state whether or not parents or
legal guardians of children entering the first grade for
the first time were required to make a choice of schools?
A. Well, I believe it states in this letter if they had reg
istered or carried this child for pre-school clinic for be
ginners, to state the school of their choice.
Q. And out of the 500 state whether or not you re-
—81—
ceived any complaint by or on behalf of any parents that
their child or ward had not been assigned to the school
that person wanted that child to attend? A. None.
Q. No complaints whatsoever? A. No complaint.
Q. And then insofar as you know, all parents of all first-
graders got their child in the school they wanted that
child to attend? A. Yes.
Q. State whether or not since the assignment or since
the opening of school until this date, have there been any
complaints about first-graders? A. No.
Q. I believe you stated there were applications in behalf
of 27 colored pupils for assignment to schools formerly
attended only by white pupils? A. In the—
Q. —other three grades. A. There were 23.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, those applications were received
hy the Board of Education about the middle of May? A.
Yes.
Q. Now, prior to the time that the board made these
- 8 2 -
assignments, how many parents requested the board or
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Cross
90a
notified the board that they desired to make a change
in their request for assignment? A. In freedom of choice?
Q. In freedom of choice. A. Eleven.
By the Court:
Q. Is that eleven of the twenty-three? A. Yes.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. And the board granted those? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, those requests to be allowed to change their
choice of school, state whether or not they were late in
writing to the board? A. Yes, they were late in writing.
Q. And I believe copies of all of those were furnished
to Mr. Fink some several months ago at his request?
A. Yes.
Q. Photo copies. And those requests were made by
parents or legal guardians of the children, people who
were responsible for the children? A. Yes.
Q. State whether or not as far as you know they were
—83-
all done freely and voluntarily?
Mr. Chambers: Objection.
Mr. Yarborough: I mean so far as he knows,
based on statements on the letters he received from
them.
Mr. Chambers: That calls for a conclusion and
some hearsay evidence.
Mr. Yarborough: I will withdraw it, if your
Honor please.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Cross
91a
Warren W. Smith—for Government—Cross
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Smith, by what method did those people com
municate with you, originally? A. By letter or through
the principal. Each one wrote a letter or made some state
ment requesting assignment.
Q. Some statement in writing! A. In writing, yes, sir.
Q. Mr. Smith, something has come up about these two
—that out of the ten assigned, eight were enrolled, and
there are now six. Now, out of the ten initially assigned—
The Court: Now, just one moment at that point.
By the Court:
Q. Was that ten of the twenty-three that were assigned?
—84—
A. Yes.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Actually assigned? A. Yes, sir.
Q. By letter? A. Yes.
Q. And eight enrolled in school on the first day? A.
Yes.
Q. Out of that eight, do you recall how many were en
rolled in the Louisburg School? A. Five, I believe.
Q. And how many in the Bunn School? A. Three.
Q. Now, that was actually enrolled. Now, how many
were assigned to the Louisburg School? A. Seven to the
Louisburg School and three to the Bunn School.
Q. Out of the seven assigned, five actually appeared
on the opening day and entered school? A. Either on the
first or second day, yes, sir.
Q. Now, of those two who were assigned to the Louis-
92a
burg School and didn’t go, one was Willie Neal’s boy!
A. That’s right.
—85—
Q. And he stated, did he not, in your presence, verbally—
The Court: Well, now, the form of the question is
objectionable there.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. What did he state?
Mr. Chambers: I object to that, too.
The Court: Overruled.
Q. What did he state was the reason that that boy did
not enroll? A. That he just would not go to that school.
Q. That was the boy’s father? A. Yes.
Q. The boy is a minor, approximately how old? A. Well,
in the twelfth grade.
Q. And you knew Willie Neal, his father, of course? A.
Yes.
Q. Now, as to the other one, he was a second-grader, I
believe? A. Yes.
Q. What was his name? A. Whitley.
Q. I believe you stated that that child never appeared
for enrollment in the Louisburg School? A. No.
— 86-
Q. Now, do you know wThat that child’s mother— A. The
mother came to me—
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, we would like to en
ter an objection to that, too.
The Court: Well, is that child a party to this suit?
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Cross
93a
Mr. Yarborough: No, sir. But a good deal was
said on direct-examination, if your Honor please, by
Mr. Fink about ten assigned, eight enrolled, and
only three there now. I wanted to bring it on down
as to why they are not in there. I think it will take
only a moment.
The Court: Objection overruled. What was the
name of that child?
The Witness: I believe it was Barbara WTiitley.
A. (Continuing) The mother came in to see me and said
the child had been crying and would not attend the Louis-
burg School, and she had tried for several days to get the
young child to go to the Louisburg School, and for emo
tional and for health reasons, and so forth, she would like
for the child to go back to the school which the child had
attended the previous year.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, that child never appeared at the
—87—
Louisburg School for enrollment? A. No.
Mr. Fink: Your Honor, I have absolutely no
objection to Mr. Yarborough’s going into this area;
however, I wanted to state that these matters will
become, probably, one of the chief matters in con
troversy in the case in chief that we will present
at the time the case is heard on its merits, the
entire case.
We have refrained from getting into the details
on these matters at this time, and so I didn’t want
it to be taken that this would be the total govern
ment’s case at this point.
The Court: I understand.
Mr. Chambers: Nor the total plaintiffs’ case.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Cross
94a
Warren W. Smith—for Government—Cross
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, two were enrolled— Christopher
Neal and a Davis child, I believe1? A. Yes.
Q. State whether or not within a few days after school
opened their parents requested those two children to go
hack to Riverside School? A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. One was in the 9th grade and one in the 12th? A.
— 88 - -
One in the 9th and one in the 12th, yes, sir.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, you stated to Mr. Fink on direct-
examination that there were no colored children enrolled
in school with white children in the year 1963-64 or the
year 1964-65. A. That’s correct.
Q. I believe yon further stated that at that time the
Board of Education was operating under the North Caro
lina Pupil Assignment Act? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know how long they had been operating under
that Act, or do you know whether or not it was since it was
enacted by the Legislature of North Carolina? A. Ap
proximately, I would say, about that length of time.
Q. And, of course, by the same token, there were no
white children in any schools attended by colored children
during those years? A. That’s right.
Q. Mr. Smith, about the teacher assignment or employ
ment which was constantly referred to by Mr. Fink and
Mr. Chambers, prior to this year what method did the
Board of Education use in employing principals and
teachers? Use principals first. A. The teacher made ap
plication—
Q. Use principals first. A. Oh, the principals?
—89—
95a
Q. Yes. A. The superintendent nominated the princi
pal, the local committee elected, and then it came back to
the Board of Education for approval or disapproval.
Q. Mr. Smith, state whether or not during the time it
was your duty to nominate them, state whether or not
you nominated those principals pursuant to the applica
tion of each principal to each school? A. Yes. Each prin
cipal made application to me for the school which he wished
to be principal of.
Q. State whether or not in effect the principals made the
choice of schools. They assigned themselves by applying,
is that correct?
Mr. Chambers: Objection.
The Court: Well, that is a conclusion, I think.
He stated the facts, as I understand it.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, in teachers what methods were used?
A. The teachers made application to the school in which
they applied to teach in, and the principal would nominate
to the committee; the committee would elect, and then it
—90—
would come up to the superintendent and the board for
approval.
Q. And state whether or not that was the state law?
Mr. Chambers: Objection.
A. That was the state law.
Mr. Yarborough: Well, if your Honor please, Mr.
Chambers asked him quite a few things about what
the state law required. I won’t quote the law, but—
Warren W. Smith-—for Government— Cross
96a
Q. Well, Mr. Smith, state whether or not you had any
complaints from any teachers as to the school in which
they were teaching? A. No.
Q. Or any principal? A. No.
The Court: Just a minute there.
By the Court:
Q. The principal submitted the names or made nomina
tions to the school committee who elected the teachers. Now,
was that election, as you understand it, subject to the
approval of the Board of Education? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Fink: Your Honor, I have no objection to
the question as to whether any of the teachers com-
- 9 1 -
plained, but it is irrelevant to this suit. The ques
tion is whether the students complained or these
particular plaintiffs complained. It isn’t a matter
of the teachers’ standing; it’s a matter of the pupils’
standing to challenge a school system in which the
teaching staff was not desegregated.
Mr. Tucker : It’s a problem, though, whether you
can make a teacher go to a school he doesn’t want
to go to. I don’t think any court has ever gone into
that problem and decided it yet.
The Court: All right, I understand the objection.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Smith, state whether or not since you have been
superintendent, you or the Board of Education has ever
assigned any principal or any teacher to a school for
Warren W. Smith—for Government— Cross
97a
which that teacher or principal did not apply? A. No, we
have not.
Q. Mr. Smith, pursuant to one of Mr. Fink’s questions
you made the statement that there are no classroom teach
ers of one race currently teaching in a school predominantly
of another race. How about other teachers? A. We have
administrative and supervisory personnel working in all
of the schools.
Q. How many supervisors do you have? A. We have
two.
—92—
Q. You state they work in both schools? A. Yes, sir.
And, of course, we have a director of instruction.
Q. State whether or not the director of instruction works
in all the schools? A. In all the schools.
Mr. Pearson: Mr. Yarborough, are you speaking
of white and Negro supervisors?
Mr. Yarborough: Both?
The Witness: Both.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, in your in-service meetings state
whether or not you have desegregated meetings? A. We
have desegregated meetings in the in-service meetings.
By the Court:
Q. What do you mean by “in-service” ? Is that your ad
ministrative and supervisory personnel and your teachers
and officers? A. Yes, sir. Or we could have someone else
come in and give instructions to the teachers, a couple of
hours maybe in one session, or it might be a 16-hour course
or something like that—in-service training.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Gross
98a
Warren W. Smith—for Government—Cross
By Mr. Yarborough:
- 9 3 -
Q. I believe you said they are integrated? A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Smith, I want to correct one statement I believe
you made. Pursuant to a question by Mr. Fink, you stated
that the examinations, final examinations, would be given
the last week in June. A. That’s the first week in June,
as it now stands. The first week in June.
Q. Mr. Smith, does the Franklin County School system
have a semester system? A. No.
Q. What is required in the Franklin County school sys
tem to get credit for a course? A. We follow the outline
prescribed by the State Department of Public Instruction
whereby a student pursues a course for 180 days, say,
one hour a day for 180 days before he or she receives a
unit of credit.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, state whether or not subjects are
taught for the nine months straight through? A. Yes, in
every case with maybe one minor exception, economics and
sociology. That’s the only course I can think of that would
be taught on a half-year basis, and even those might be
applied six weeks and then switch to the other one, depend
ing on the manner the teacher wishes to give instruction.
—94—
Q. When Mr. Chambers was examining you, you were
asked about some of the lateral transfers. State how many
notices were sent out, approximately how many, in the early
part of May for pupils then enrolled in the Franklin
County school system, regarding the assignment to the
schools for the next, ensuing year. A. All
.Q All? A. It would be approximately 6,000.
The Court: Now, that covered what?
99a
Mr. Yarborough: All pupils then attending the
Franklin County school system who expected to en
roll in the school system for the ’65-66 school year.
Q. That applied both to the free choice grades and lat
erals? A. Yes, sir.
The Court: What was the nature of the notice ?
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Smith, on that notice for the three grades other
than the first, that is, the 2nd, 9th, and 12th, this form B-3
was sent out. Do you have any idea about how many were
sent? A. It would be an estimate if I gave it.
Q. Give us an estimate. A. Approximately 1800 of
—95—
them.
Q. And do you have any idea approximately how many
you received back? A. About 90%.
The Court: Which notice are we talking about?
Mr. Yarborough: This is Form 3-B on the free
dom of choice, if your Honor please, grades 2, 9,
and 12.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, do you know how many of the other-
forms were sent out about the other eight grades?
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, we would like to re
quest some identification of what other form he is
referring to now.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Cross
100a
Warren W. Smith—for Government—Cross
By the Court:
Q. Now, you have testified, as I understand it, that ap
proximately 6,000 notices were sent, which I understand
encompasses all of the students in their entire Franklin
County school system? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you sent certain types of notices to certain stu
dents and other types of notices to others? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, the 6,000 includes all the notices that were sent?
- 9 6 -
A. Yes, sir.
The Court: Now, you may continue and see if you
can elucidate what notices went to whom.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Smith, this Form B-3 attached to Government’s
Exhibit 2, state whether ro not this was sent to those plan
ning to enter the 2nd, 9th, or 12th grades for the ’65-66
school year? A. Yes, sir. The B-3 was sent to them.
Q. And state whether or not this letter you referred to
a few minutes ago attached to Government’s Exhibit 2 just
prior to Form B-3 was distributed to all known parents
of children entering the first grade? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, I hand you Government’s Exhibit 2
and show you wfiat is denominated as Form B-4. State
whether or not a form substantially like that was sent to
the parents or legal guardians of pupils in the other eight
grades, excluding 1, 2, 9, and 12? A. Yes.
Q. State whether or not that pertained to the grades
now called “ lateral transfer grades.” A. Yes.
Q. Do you know about how many of those forms were
—97—
distributed? A. That would be approximately 4,000.
101a
Q. Do you know approximately how many were re
turned? A. It would be 37—37 came to—you see, these did
not have to he returned. This was information that went
to the parent.
Q. How many requests for lateral transfers were made?
A. Thirty-seven.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, state what was done— A. I beg
your pardon, that should be 38.
Q. State what was done to all the pupils other than those
applying for free-choice transfers and those applying for
lateral transfers. What was done as to the other as to the
assignment of schools for the ’65-66 school year? A. Re
peat that, please.
Q. I say what was done with reference to the assignment
of all of the pupils in the Franklin County school system
other than those planning to enter the 1st, 2nd, 9th, or 12th
grades for the ’65-66 school year? I mean were they as
signed? A. They were assigned to the school that they
were presently attending.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, state whether or not you have had
any complaints since then from those assignments? A. No.
—98—
Mr. Chambers: Objection.
The Court: Overruled.
Q. And when were those assignments made for all of
these 38? A. May the 19th.
Q. And by what means were they distributed? A. They
were distributed on the report card that went out at the
end of the year.
Q. Now, Mr. Chambers asked you a question about if
the Board of Education assigned teachers on a non-racial
basis or on a racial basis. State whether or not they make
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Cross
102a
any such assignments on a racial basis of teachers em
ployed by the Franklin County school system. A. Well,
the teachers are assigned to the school for which they ap
ply, and elected to teach.
Q. Mr. Smith, he asked you if there would be an admin
istrative problem, Mr. Chambers did, of transferring pupils
at this stage of the school year, with particular reference
to the transportation and schedules. When are your trans
portation routes and your school schedules worked out? A.
They are worked out in the spring or summer before the
opening of school.
Q. State whether or not teachers are employed on the
- 9 9 -
basis of the schedules in the subjects which they are to
teach? A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Chambers asked you a good deal about pupils
already in school not being required to meet the same cri
teria as is required of these pupils seeking lateral transfer.
I ’ll ask you to state whether or not that same rule applies
to both white and colored pupils? A. Yes.
Q. I ’ll ask you to state whether or not all pupils are now
in the school to which their parents or guardians brought
them?
Mr. Chambers: Objection.
The Court: Overruled.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, may I say one thing
on that?
The Court: Yes.
Mr. Chambers: I think the fact that these plain
tiffs are involved in this proceeding would refute the
question that was asked.
The Court: Well, it may refute it, but neverthe
less I don’t think it makes the question or the answer
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Cross
103a
irrelevant. There was some talk about freedom of
choice, and this question I think tends to be relevant
— 100—
to that inquiry.
Objection overruled.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Smith, state whether or not that so far as you
know all of these minor plaintiffs are now enrolled in the
Franklin County school system and are being taught there?
A. Yes.
Q. And state whether or not every one of them, so far
as you know, are enrolled in the schools which they attended
for the ’64-65 school year? A. Yes.
Mr. Pearson: May it please the court, you know
he testified there were two students he didn’t know
where they were, whether they were in school or not.
Mr. Yarborough: He said so far as he knows.
The Witness: So far as I know.
The Court: All right, go ahead.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Smith, in reference to those two students just
mentioned, state whether or not that was the Neal child
and the Whitley child? A. Yes.
— 101—
Q. Mr. Smith, state whether or not their parents, Willie
Neal, or the Whitley child’s mother—I do not recall her
name—asked you to transfer them back?
The Court: I believe he has been into that.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Cross
104a
Mr. Yarborough: The reason for the question, if
your Honor please, I wanted to know whether or
not Mr. Smith gave them permission to go back to
Riverside School.
Q. You permitted that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. This was done pursuant to their parents’ request!
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Smith, with reference to the lateral transfers and
the criteria that the Board of Education used for lateral
transfers, state whether or not that criteria applied equally
to students of the white race as well as students of the
colored race? A. Yes, sir.
The Court: I believe he has testified to that.
Mr. Yarborough: I beg your pardon, your Honor.
I didn’t remember.
Q. Mr. Smith, about this notice or the notice about the
- 102-
criteria for change, I ’ll ask you to state whether or not
the criteria regarding the availability or regarding the
desire to take a course of study offered in one school and
not in another, state whether or not that was contained in
the guide-line issued by the HEW? A. Yes.
Mr. Fink: If your Honor please, the way it is
phrased in the guide-line is there for anyone to see.
My objection is that no witness can interpret that
for this court. I think that is a matter for oral argu
ment by the attorneys.
The Court: Yes, I think the regulations speak for
themselves.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Cross
105a
Warren W. Smith—for Government—Cross
By Mr. Yarborough:
. Mr. Smith, state whether or not the Board of Educa
tion considered the guide-lines issued by the Office of Edu
cation of HEW before they adopted any criteria! A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, when did your school open, the school
system of Franklin County, this year! A. September 8th.
Q. State whether or not some days prior to that date
the assignments or notice of assignments for the laterals
or for the minor plaintiffs in this action were sent out!
—103—
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Smith, did you have a conversation with Luther
Coppedge prior to the opening of school and subsequent
to the date the notice of assignment of his child, Harold
Douglas Coppedge was sent out! A. Yes.
Q. How was that! A. By telephone call. He called me.
Q. Do you remember the date! A. I ’m not sure if it
was the last day of August or the first of September. It
was Tuesday or Wednesday of that week.
Q. Pursuant to that telephone call did you have another
conversation with him or a meeting with him! A. Yes.
We arranged a meeting with two members of the Board of
Education, the attorney to the Board of Education, and
myself.
Q. With whom! A. We met with Mr. and Mrs. Cop
pedge, Mrs. Irene Arrington, and Mr. B. T. Driver.
Q. State whether or not Mrs. Arrington and B. T. Driver
are plaintiffs in this action! A. Yes.
Q. And so is Luther Coppedge! A. Yes.
—104—
Q. Now, when was that meeting held! A. The meeting
was held on September 2nd.
106a
Q. Where? A. In the Office of the Board of Education
in the Board room.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, at that meeting state whether or not
the criteria was fully explained to those parents there,
Mr. Coppedge, Mrs. Arrington, and Mr. Driver. A. Yes.
The Court: Just a minute. What criteria?
Mr. Yarborough: That is the criteria for lateral
transfers, if your Honor pleases.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, did Mr. Coppedge make any state
ment as to whether or not his son desired to take a course
of study at Edward Best School which was not offered at
the Perry’s School? A. He made the statement that his
son’s reason for asking for transfer was not for a subject
at the Edward Best School that he could not get at the
Perry’s School. His reason was that the Edward Best
School was the nearest one to his home, as he had put on
his application, preferential application.
Q. Mr. Smith, state at that meeting on the 2nd of Sep
tember before school opened whether Mrs. Arrington or
Mr. Driver stated that their child or children desired to
— 105-
take a course of study not available at the school to which
they were assigned? A. No, neither one.
Q. Did you later on meet at a meeting with Mr. Cop
pedge? A. Yes. We made a trip to Washington, D.C.,
and met with Mr. Mordecai Johnson and a Mrs. McClure,
HEW officials, and Mr. A. C. Fuller, Vice-Chairman of the
Board of Education, Mr. Yarborough, attorney to the
Board of Education, and I, met in Washington, D.C. with
Reverend Coppedge and a Reverend S. G. Dunston.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Cross
107a
Q. Now, how was that meeting held? A. That was held
in one of the offices of the HEW headquarters or these tem
porary S-buildings, which is a part of HEW.
Q. Do you know whether or not Mr. Coppedge made any
statement in the presence of all of those people relative
to his child desiring to take a course of study at Edward
Best that was not available to him at Perry’s High School?
A. He made the same such statement again in Washington,
D.C.; that his reason was not for a course of study, it was
because it was nearer to Edward Best School.
Q. What was that date, that approximate date? A. Oc-
—106—
tober 8,1965.
Q. State whether or not you had a meeting subsequent
to October 8, 1965, at which Mr. Coppedge was present?
A. It was October 13th.
Q. Where was that meeting? A. That was a meeting
with the full Board of Education.
Q. Who else was present other than the members of the
Board and you? A. Mr. Yarborough, attorney to the
Board of Education, Mr. S. 0. Dunston and B. T. Driver,
and Reverend Coppedge.
Q. State whether or not there Mr. Coppedge made any
statement regarding his son desiring to take a course of
study at Edward Best not available at Perry’s? A. He
made about the same statement that had been made on two
previous occasions; that the course of study was not his
reason for asking for transfer; that it was nearness to
school.
Q. B. T. Driver was also present? He’s a plaintiff here.
A. Yes.
Q. State whether or not he made any request for trans
fer to the Bunn School from the Gethsemane School, to
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Cross
108a
which his children were then assigned, on account of
— 107—
a course of study there not available at Gethsemane ? A.
No.
Q. Mr. Smith, I hand you this paper here. State whether
or not that paper is the request for the assignment of
school, signed by Mr. and Mrs. Luther Coppedge? A. Yes,
sir. This is a copy of the preferential form that we have
on file in the office of the Board of Education.
Q. Who signed that paper ? A. Christine Elizabeth Cop-
pedge, the mother; and Luther Coppedge, the father.
Q. In whose behalf? What was the name of the pupil?
A. In behalf of Harold Douglas Coppedge.
Q. Now, what reason is given there? A. (Reading from
document) “This school is the nearest one to my home.”
Q. Now, what school did they request assignment to for
their son, Harold Douglas Coppedge? A. Edward Best.
Q. From what school? A. From the Perry’s High
School.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, I ’ll ask you this question. State
whether or not any of the plaintiffs, the parents of the
minor plaintiffs in this case, ever made any statement to
—108-
you that they desired their child to take a course of study
offered in the school to which they sought assignment and
not offered in the school to which their children were as
signed? A. No.
Q. Did any of them state that they had moved their resi
dence closer to a school or moved their residence since the
last school year and for that reason wanting assignment!
A. No.
Q. Mr. Smith, this paper you have here signed by Chris
tine Elizabeth Coppedge and Luther Coppedge, state
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Cross
109a
whether or not Mr. Coppedge in those three meetings with
you stated that was the reason he wanted his child trans
ferred—nearness to school? A. Yes.
Mr. Fink: May I ask the defendants’ attorney if
that is going to be placed in evidence?
Mr. Yarborough: Well, we weren’t putting evi
dence on at the moment. I expect to offer it when
we put on our evidence.
Mr. Fink: Since he is testifying to it, it might
help if we have that marked for identification.
The Court: Yes, let’s mark it for identification.
- 1 0 9 -
Document referred to above marked for identifi
cation as Defendants’ Exhibit 1.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Smith, I believe you signed an affidavit yesterday
for presentation here today? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I believe you verified the answer to the interroga
tories? A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, it may be in evidence here but, if not,
under what date did the Franklin County Board of Educa
tion receive final approval ? A. August 31, 1965.
The Court: Final approval from whom?
Mr. Yarborough: Office of Education of the De
partment of Health, Education & Welfare.
The Court: I just wanted to get that in the record.
Q. State if you know, between the draft submitted on 3
May 1965 and the final approval dated 31 August 1965 by
HEW of the Franklin County plan, how many amendments
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Cross
110a
were made pursuant to conversations with HEW ? A.
- 110-
Nine amendments.
Q. State whether or not, Mr. Smith, the final amendment
was set forth in the letter from HEW dated 31 August 1965?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Smith, how many conferences did you have with
ofiicias of HEW ?
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, I object. That doesn’t
seem to be material to this inquiry.
Mr. Yarborough: We think it is. Our answer is
based—
Mr. Chambers: It seems that the only material
thing here would be if they would like to introduce
the first plan and the amendments they submitted,
and the final plan approved.
Mr. Yarborough: I think Mr. Chambers, himself,
asked Mr. Smith about these telephone conferences
and if he told them in some of those conferences. I
think that happened, as Mr. Chambers will probably
recall.
The Court: Well, I don’t know whether it is rele
vant or not. I will hear the testimony, and I will ex
clude all irrelevant matters.
Mr. Yarborough: All right, your Honor. I will
strike that question.
— 111-
Q. Mr. Smith, who had most of the conferences in be
half of the Board of Education with officials of HEW
A. Our attorney to the Board of Education, Mr. Yarbor
ough?
Q. Me? A. Yes.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Cross
111a
Q. Do you have any idea how many conferences were had?
The Court: Well, objection sustained. That is in the
realm of speculation.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Smith, it has been suggested that possibly this
wasn’t clear. On the pupils seeking reassignment in grades
2, 9, and 12, it wasn’t made clear as to whether or not those
pupils or the parents or legal guardians of those pupils
were required to fill out the form printed at the bottom
of Form B-3. A. Yes, the parent or legal guardian were
required to.
Q. Were required to sign that? A. Yes.
Q. None were assigned until they had filled this out?
A. That’s correct.
Mr. Yarborough: Your Honor, that will be all, I
think, for the moment, sir.
—112—
# # * # #
—115—
Pursuant to adjournment at Clinton, North Carolina, on
February 8, 1966, the hearing was resumed on February
10, 1966, in the courtroom of the United States Courthouse
and Post Office Building, Ealeigh, North Carolina, before
Honorable Algernon L. Butler, Chief Judge. The parties
being present and represented by counsel as heretofore
noted, the following proceedings were had:
The Court: I believe at the time of recess Mr. Smith was
on the stand being examined by the plaintiffs. Is there any
further examination?
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Cross
112a
Mr. Fink: No farther examination by the government,
yonr Honor, hut I think Mr. Chambers wanted to have a
chance to redirect.
The Court: Resume the stand, Mr. Smith.
W aeben W. Smith, having previously been duly sworn,
resumed the witness stand and was examined and testified
further as follow s:
Redirect Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Smith, you testified in answer to some questions
propounded by Mr. Yarborough that the regulations of the
Department of Health, Education and Welfare required
- 1 1 6 -
grades 1, 2, 9 and 12 to be open for transfer? A. In our
plan, in our agreement with HEW they were the grades—
1, 2, 9 and 12.
Q. The regulations in fact required, did they not, Mr.
Smith, that the board open all grades unless the board was
able to show some administrative problem which would
prevent it from doing so?
Mr. Yarborough: I f your Honor please, we object
as to what the regulations require. They are in evi
dence, I think. Mr. Fink put them in evidence.
The Court: Yes, I think the regulations will speak
for themselves.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Smith, you testified of your discussions with the
Department of Health, Education and Welfare. Did you
at any time during those discussions present any adminis
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
113a
trative problem which would prevent you from opening all
grades for transfer for this year? A. No.
Q. Now, you testified further that in the grades affected,
that is, grades 1, 2, 9 and 12, the students were required to
indicate a choice of schools and that 90% of those students
in grades 2, 9 and 12 indicated a choice of schools? A. Yes,
- 1 1 7 -
sir.
Q. What happened to the other 10% of those students?
A. The other ten were assigned to the school previously at
tended.
Q. Did you have any students moving from one school
unit to another school unit? A. You mean from one ad
ministrative unit into our administrative unit?
Q. Oh, no. From, say, elementary school to high school.
A. Yes.
Q. And where were those students—how were those stu
dents assigned? A. Well, most of our schools are union
schools or feeder schools to this particular union school.
Q. They were assigned by your feeder pattern? A. Yes.
Q. From an elementary to a high school? A. Yes.
Q. And this feeder pattern was the pattern in existence
prior to 1954? A. Yes.
Q. And resulted in students attending predominantly
white elementary schools being assigned to predominantly
- 1 1 8 -
white high schools? A. Yes. But that is where the stu
dents or their parents presented them for the initial enroll
ment.
Q. No. If a student was not enrolled in the high school
but in the elementary school, and if a student was moving
from the elementary school to a high school, the students in
predominantly white elementary schools went to predomi
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
114a
nantly white high schools; is that not correct? A. They
would follow the same pattern that had been (followed) in
past years.
Q. You testified also that students in grade 1 were re
quired to indicate a choice of school, but if they had en
rolled in a pre-school clinic, they were assigned to the
school in which they enrolled in the pre-school clinic whether
they indicated their choice or not; is that correct? A.
They had the right to make a free choice where they went
for the pre-school clinic or beginner’s day to the school
they chose. If they did not choose another school then,
they were assigned to that school.
Q. When were your pre-school clinics held? A. I believe
they were in March. These pre-school clinics were set up by
the Franklin County Health Department.
- 1 1 9 -
Q. And how were they set up ? A. They were set up in
the individual schools, to the best of my knowledge, by the
Franklin County Health Department.
Q. That’s the state or county health department? A.
Yes.
Q. You are not talking about the Department of Health,
Education and Welfare? A. No. I ’m talking about the
Franklin County Health Department.
Q. Now, in any of these pre-school clinics did you have
Negro students—
Mr. Tucker: Your Honor, I want to object on the
ground that it is not pertinent to the inquiry on pre
liminary injunction. I know we have gone into it,
but I think it ought to stop, because the only issue
really before the court is these lateral transfers on
the preliminary injunction.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
115a
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, our basic contention
here is that the whole pattern followed by the school
board is pertinent to show the pattern or practice in
trying to maintain separation of students in the
schools, and that the denial of the lateral transfers
here were mere perpetuations of the pattern or prac
tice of the school board, and we think the practices
— 120—
used by the school board in initial enrollment are
pertinent here on the question of whether the school
board justifiably denied the transfers of these plain
tiffs here.
The Court: Objection overruled.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Smith, I will repeat my question. Did you have
for the 1965-66 school year any Negro students enrolling
in predominantly white schools at pre-school clinics? A.
Yes.
Q. At what school? A. The Bunn School and the Louis-
burg School.
Q. Now, how many Negro students enrolled at these
pre-school clinics? A. Pre-school clinics? I don’t know
about the pre-school clinics. I was thinking you were
talking about the registration period. I do not know.
Q. In the March period of pre-school clinics you do not
know whether you had any Negro students to enroll at
these pre-school clinics? A. No, I do not know.
Q. And you testified that you had how many Negro
students assigned to predominantly white schools in the
first grade? A. Three.
— 121—
Q. And how many requested assignment to predominant
ly white schools ? A. Three.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
116a
Q. Now, did you advertise prior to March or during the
month of March that students in the school system could
enroll at pre-school clinics at any school1? A. Did I? This
is left to the health department.
Q. To to the health department? A. Yes.
Q. And this is a process used in enrolling students for
school—the pre-school clinics? A. The pre-school clinics—
sometimes, yes.
Q. And do you know of your own knowledge of any ad
vertisement advising parents in the community that they
could enroll their children in any pre-school clinic they
desired? A. I don’t know exactly how the advertisement
was made, hut I do know an advertisement was put in the
paper by the Franklin County Health Department.
Q. And did it advise the parents to enroll their children
at any pre-school clinic? A. Well, it stated where the
clinics would be held.
Q. But did not state that the parents could enroll their
—122-
children in any pre-school clinic? A. Well, I don’t know
exactly whether it stated it in so many words, but they
gave the locations and the hours that they would have
the pre-school clinics.
Q. And is that all that you recall of the notice? A.
That’s all that I recall of the notice.
Q. Now, you testified about supervisors working in all
schools. How many Negro supervisors do you have? A.
We have one.
Q. Anri what is the name of this supervisor? A. Mrs.
Davis.
Q. And what does she supervise? A. Elementary.
Q. Elementary education? A. Yes. We have two ele
mentary supervisors.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
117a
Q. And what is the name of the other elementary super
visor? A. Mrs. Holmes.
Q. Is she white or Negro? A. White.
Q. Now, does Mrs. Holmes supervise the white schools
or predominantly white schools?
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor please, we would
like to object. I don’t want to bother the court, but
I understood we were hearing today two motions
—123—
for preliminary injunction, and all that is set forth
in the original plaintiffs’ preliminary injunction is :
they respectfully pray the court to preliminarily
enjoin the defendants, and so forth, to admit the
minor plaintiffs to enlist in the school—they say in
the school of their choice for 1964—that’s the 1965
school year—to notify all such plaintiffs of the right
to enroll effective at the beginning of the second
semester of the 1965-66 school year.
Now, that is set forth. Now, they served notice
of motion to amend their motion for preliminary in
junction, but they did not pursue it at the hearing
and withdrew it at the hearing day before yesterday.
We are prepared, what we thought, to answer, to
hear, on what they are seeking at this hearing, not
the trial of the case.
Now, I think getting into the supervisors is an
other thing, if your Honor pleases, and gets far
afield from either the original plaintiffs’ motion for
preliminary injunction or the government’s motion
for preliminary injunction which did not go into
the teachers at all. I grant that those matters are
raised in the main suit but not in here. The original
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
118a
plaintiffs ask and spell out the names of those ask-
- 1 2 4 -
ing to get admitted at the beginning of what they
call the second semester of the 1965-66 school year;
and there is nothing else mentioned about any teach
ers or anything else in this hearing.
The Court: Well, I have allowed some latitude
in this hearing because its being a matter before
the court, I didn’t want to foreclose or preclude any
relevant testimony as to the motions before the
court. But, frankly, I do not see the relevancy of
this on these motions.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, I will gladly with
draw the question if the court does not think it
pertinent here, but the defendants did go in—
The Court: Well, now, do you think it’s pertinent
to the pending motion1?
Mr. Chambers: Yes, sir, because we include in
our complaint and motion and allegations something
similar to the problem of Rogers v. Paul out of
Arkansas where the court there talked in terms of
an Equal Educational Opportunity offered by the
school board in the Negro schools. Now, certainly
the supervisors of the particular school system would
be quite essential to a sound educational system.
— 125—
The Court: Do you have the opinion in that case!
Mr. Tucker : I have, your Honor. It uses the
words “ certain courses taken: * * * but also because
petitioners are thereby prevented from taking cer
tain courses offered only at another high school
* * * ” it doesn’t identify—
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
119a
Mr. Fink: But at the bottom of the page, sir, it
goes on to say:
“Even the Court of Appeals’ requirement for
standing would be met on remand since petitioners’
transfer to the white high school would desegregate
their grades to that limited extent. Moreover, we
reject the Court of Appeals’ view of standing as be
ing unduly restrictive. Two theories would give stu
dents not yet in desegregated grades sufficient in
terest to challenge racial allocation of faculty: (1)
that racial allocation of faculty denies them equality
of educational opportunity without regard to segre
gation of pupils ; and (2) that it renders inadequate
an otherwise constitutional pupil desegregation plan
soon to be applied to their grades.”
So I agree with Mr. Chambers that there is some
relevancy to it. In my instance and the government’s
—1 2 6 -
instance I would have asked the same question; I
wanted to ask this same question for a different
reason.
On cross-examination on Tuesday by Mr. Yar
borough, Mr. Smith testified to this very set of
facts, and it was left unclear as to whether or not
Negro personnel supervised either white personnel
or white students in any way. It was just simply
stated that whereas there were no teachers teaching
children of another race, that is, in schools that were
predominantly attended by children of another race,
there were administrative personnel and supervisory
personnel in this situation.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, in order to expedite
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
120a
the proceeding I will withdraw the question and
reserve it, if I may, for the trial on the merits.
The Court: Very well.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Smith, yon testified also about credit courses
and time required for a student to stay in school in order
to receive unit credit? A. Yes.
Q. Did you state that a student must stay in a course
for 180 days before receiving credit? A. I stated that was
—127—
the regulation from the State Department of Public In
struction.
Q. Now, is that a requirement; that is, that a student
stay in school for 180 days, or is it less than 180 days? A.
Well, a unit of credit ordinarily is given for a subject pur
sued one hour a day for 180 days.
Q. Isn’t it really two-thirds that is required, two-thirds
of the 180 days rather than the 180 days? A. I doubt if
a student would get credit for a course if he missed one-
third of the school year. That would he 60 days.
Q. Do you have a copy of the regulations of the state
department? A. No, I don’t.
Q. You don’t? A. Not with me. I can give you where
this regulation is.
Q. Where is the regulation? A. It’s in the Handbook
for Elementary and Secondary Schools issued by the State
Superintendent of Public Instruction, Raleigh, North Caro
lina, 1953.
Q. That’s the handbook for public instruction? A. For
elementary and secondary schools, issued by the State
Superintendent of Public Instruction, Raleigh, North Caro
lina, 1953.
Warren W. Smith,— for Government— Redirect
121a
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
—128—
Q. Thank you, Mr. Smith. You do have students trans
ferring into your school system in the middle of the
school year? A. Coming from another administrative unit.
Q. Coming from another community? A. Yes.
Q. And how are they accommodated for the 180 days?
A. Well, if they transfer, the number of days they have
been in the previous school system.
Q. And you do have students in your school system
moving from one school district to another? A. Yes.
Q. And how are they accommodated? A. In our school
system, one district to another?
Q. Yes. Say from Bunn School to another school in
your school system, how are they accommodated for the
180 days? A. Well, all the schools run the same number
of days unless a boiler were to burst or something like
that and we could not have school in a particular school,
but thus far—
Q. They would ordinarily be accommodated, however, by
transferring their school days from the old school to the
new school? A. Yes.
—129—
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, do you know now the courses taken
or being taken by the plaintiffs involved in this proceeding?
A. Yes, I have this information.
Q. The records that they have would be records you
would like to keep in your file and not leave with the court?
A. They are Register Sheets, which would be the record
for the student in the individual schools.
Q. Do you have those now? A. Yes.
Q. May I see them a moment?
122a
Mr. Yarborough: I f your Honor please, these
records are in the nature of confidential records
within the Board of Education. They are not re
leased to any person as a rule, or ever, except to
the student himself or his parents or upon written
permission such as transcription to a college or
something. We have no objection if the court says,
but I want it clear that the Board of Education
does not free-handedly pass out this information.
The Court: I do not know what these reports
- 1 3 0 -
contain. There may be some information on there
that for some reason might not be wise to make
public. I do not know that that’s true; I do not
know the facts. I understand, however, that counsel
has only asked this witness as to the record of the
courses of study that the plaintiffs in this case are
now pursuing. Is that correct?
Mr. Chambers: That is correct.
The Court: And in view of the fact that his
question is restricted to the parties to the suit and
he is counsel for those parties, his request for this
information the court will hold is a waiver of any
privilege that his clients may have.
Mr. Yarborough: That’s quite all right, if your
Honor please. We weren’t objecting to it, but we
wanted the people to know that the reason they
were made public was upon the court’s order or
request. But the Record Sheets contain more infor
mation, as I understand it, than just a list of the
courses taken. They contain the grades they have
made and maybe some other information regarding
them; I do not know.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
123a
The Court: I will direct the witness to furnish
the information as it relates to the courses of study
- 1 3 1 -
now being pursued by the plaintiffs in this action.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Smith, I will call the name of the plaintiff in
volved and if you would tell the court the courses presently
being taken by the plaintiff, this is the only information
that we would want from the records that you have. A.
Which? Each plaintiff?
Q. Yes. I am going to call the plaintiff’s name. Harold
Douglas Coppedge.
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor please, may I
say this while Mr. Smith is looking for those rec
ords? That these records were brought pursuant to
a telephone conversation from plaintiffs’ counsel
yesterday and at their request. Mr. Smith just
wasn’t carrying them around in his pocket. He
brought them at their request.
Mr. Fink: I want the record to show that I thank
them for doing this. I called them, and they did
this under very difficult circumstances. We appreci
ate that.
A. I have his record now.
Q. Would you state the courses that he is taking for this
—1 3 2 -
school year? A. English II, Algebra I, Biology, World
History, French I, Home Economics 712—ordinarily the
second year of Home Economics.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
124a
Q. And what grade is Harold Coppedge in? A. The
10th grade.
Q. He requested assignment to which school? A. The
Edward Best School.
Q. Do you have the record of Frances Noreen Driver?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you state the courses she is taking? A. Read
ing, Language, Spelling, Writing, Arithmetic, Science, Ge
ography, History, Health, Physical Education, Music, and
Art.
Q. And what grade is she in? A. Grade 8.
Q. And do you know the school to which she requested
transfer? A. The Bunn School.
Q. Jacquelyn Rose Driver. A. Reading, Language,
Spelling, Writing, Arithmetic, Science, Social Studies,
Health, Physical Education, Music, and Art.
Q. And what grade is she in? A. The seventh grade.
—133—
Q. Do you know the school to which she requested trans
fer? A. Bunn School.
Q. Booker T. Driver Jr. A. Reading, Language, Spell
ing, Writing, Arithmetic, Science, Geography, History,
Health, Physical Education, Music, and Art.
Q. And what grade is he in? A. The sixth grade.
Q. And did he request transfer to Bunn also? A. Yes.
Q. Jesse L. Driver. A. Reading, Language, Spelling,
Writing, Arithmetic, Science, Social Studies, Health, Physi
cal Education, Music, and Art.
Q. Do you know the grade that Jesse is in now? A.
The third.
Q. And did Jesse request transfer to Bunn also? A.
Bunn School.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
125a
Q. Charles D. Gill. A. English II, Algebra I, Biology,
United States History, Agriculture 702.
Q. What grade is Charles in? A. The tenth.
Q. And what school did he request transfer to? A.
Louisburg School.
— 134—
Q. Martha D. Gill. A. English II, Algebra I, Biology,
History 421—I assume that is U.S. History, Home Eco
nomics 711.1—that is ordinarily Home Ec. I.
Q. What grade is Martha in? A. Tenth.
Q. And what school did she request transfer to? A.
Louisburg School.
Q. James Gill. A. English, Beading, Language, Spell
ing, Writing, Arithmetic, Science, Social Studies, Health,
Physical Education, Music, and Art.
Q. What grade is James in? A. Fifth.
Q. What school did he request transfer to? A. Louis
burg School.
Q. Mr. Smith, maybe we can shorten this. Could you
state at this stage whether the schools to which the plain
tiffs have requested transfer offer the same courses that
they are now taking at the schools to which they have
been assigned? A. Yes, I can state that. They would not
be able to get all the courses they are now taking.
Q. They would not be? A. Would not be.
—135—
Q. And woirld this be true of all of the plaintiffs? A.
I doubt that it would be true of all of the plaintiffs.
Q. Do you know those who would he the exception, that
is, who would he able to get all the courses they are now
taking? A. No, not without a thorough investigation.
Q. Would you state the courses taken by Patricia K. Gill.
A. English III, Geometry, United States History, French
511 and Typing I.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
126a
Q. What grade is she in? A. Eleventh grade.
Q. And what school did she request transfer to? A. The
Louisburg School.
Q. Now, does Louisburg offer the courses that Patricia
Gill is taking? A. Yes. But I might bring this out: even
though a school offers the subjects, there is always the
scheduling problem.
Q. What do you mean by the “ scheduling problem” ? A.
Well, it might be that two of these subjects would he
offered at the same period.
Q. Two of the subjects that she is taking? A. Two of
—136—
the subjects would be offered at the same period.
Q. That’s a possibility? A. Yes.
Q. Would that be true of the students in elementary
school? A. No.
Q. It would not be true? A. No.
Q. And, also, all of your elementary schools teach the
same courses anyway, do they not? A. Basically the
same courses, yes.
Q. So, certainly, for the students in the elementary
schools there would be no problem so far as the courses
are concerned? A. So far as getting the course. But once
again, as I said the other day, each teacher does not teach
at the same rate, and the amount of work covered would
be different.
Q. But insofar as the courses are concerned there would
be no conflict, and all of the students would be able to
take or continue the same courses they are now taking!
A. Yes.
Mr. Yarborough: I f your Honor please, may I
—137-
interrupt? I understood that question was directed
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
127a
to the elementary grades. I just wanted to clarify
that. Is that correct?
Mr. Chambers: Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you stated there might be some conflict in the
high school so far as scheduling is concerned? A. Yes.
Q. Now, what courses is Marjie J. Kelley taking? A.
Reading, Language, Spelling, Writing, Arithmetic, Science,
Geography, History, Health, Physical Education, Music,
and Art.
Q. What grade is Marjie Kelley in? A. Eighth.
Q. And would she be able to transfer without any diffi
culty as to courses? A. Be able to get the subjects.
Q. She would be? A. Yes.
By the Court:
Q. What school is she seeking transfer to? A. The
Bunn School.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. Gwendolyn E. Kelley. A. English Reading, Mathe
matics, Spelling, Writing, General Science, Health, Geog
raphy, Art, History, Music, and Physical Education.
—138—
Q. What grade is she in? A. Fifth.
Q. And she, too, would be able to transfer without any
difficulty as to courses? A. Being able to get the subjects?
Q. Yes. A. Yes.
By the Court:
Q. What school is she seeking transfer to? A. Bunn
School.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
128a
Q. What grade is Jean Carol Satterwhite in'? A. The
eleventh.
Q. What school is she requesting transfer to? A. The
Bunn School.
Q. And does the Bunn School offer the courses that she
is presently taking? A. No.
Q. What course is she taking now that is not offered at
the Bunn School? A. Well, I can see one—French I.
Q. Bunn does not offer French I? A. No.
Q. Does Bunn offer any French? A. Second year
French. —139—
Q. Is that French II? A. French II, yes.
Q. Where is French I offered in the Bunn School unit?
A. It’s not offered at all this year.
Q. Not offered at all this year? A. They are teaching
Spanish.
Q. They rotate each year from French I to French II?
A. It is my understanding that they will be teaching Span
ish from now on out. They are teaching the second year
of French for those students who had French I. The next
year will he all Spanish.
Q. Carl Lee Saterwhite is in what grade? A. Tenth
grade.
Q. And is he requesting transfer to Bunn? A. Yes.
Q. Would he be able to take all the courses he is pres
ently taking, at Bunn? A. The courses are offered. I do
not know whether there would be a conflict in scheduling.
Q. But they are offered at the Bunn School? A. Yes.
Q. All of the courses he is presently taking? A. Yes.
—140—
Q. What grade is Bertha Engram in? A. The eleventh
grade.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
By Mr. Chambers:
129a
Q. What school is she requesting transfer to? A. The
Louisburg School.
Q. Would she be able to take all the courses she is
presently taking, at the Louisburg School? A. I believe
the subjects would be offered. I do not know whether there
would be a conflict in schedules.
Q. The subjects are offered? A. Yes.
Q. Going back to Jean Carol Satterwhite, how many units
of foreign languages are required in order to complete a
high-school course? A. Well, usually they have—if you
take it one year, it would take the second year to get
credit—to get into college.
Q. But one unit is all that is required to get a high-
school diploma? A. Yes.
Q. What grade is Paul Engram in? A. Eighth.
Q. And what school is he requesting transfer to? A.
The Louisburg School.
Q. And, as you have stated, he would be able to take
all the courses at the Louisburg School that he is presently
taking? A. Yes.
—141—
The Court: Who is this now?
The Witness: Paul Engram II.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. There would be no conflict so far as Paul Engram is
concerned? A. No.
Q. Norine Arrington is in what grade? A. Seventh
grade.
Q. And what school is she requesting transfer to? A.
The Louisburg School.
Q. She, too, would be able to transfer without any con
flict as to courses? A. Yes.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
130a
Q. What grade is Carrie C. McKnight in? A. Eighth
grade.
Q. What school is she requesting transfer to? A. The
Lonisbnrg School.
Q. She, too, would be able to transfer without any con
flict as to courses? A. Yes.
Q. What grade is Nathaniel McKnight in? A. Seventh.
— 142-
Q. And the same would be true as to him? A. Yes.
Q. He would be able to transfer without any conflict as
to courses? A. Yes.
Q. And he is requesting transfer to Louisburg? A.
Louisburg School.
Q. Charlie Jones is in what grade? A. Seventh grade.
Q. What school is he requesting transfer to? A. The
Louisburg School.
Q. He, too, would be able to transfer without any con
flict as to courses? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What grade is Regena 0. Woodson in? A. The sixth
grade.
Q. What school is she requesting transfer to? A. The
Louisburg School.
Q. And she, too, would be able to transfer without any
conflict as to courses? A. Yes, she would be able to get
the courses; but, once again, I don’t know whether the
amount of work covered in one school would be the same
amount of work.
Q. At least she would be offered the courses and there
would be no conflict in time? A. Yes.
— 143—
Q. Now, do you have with you, Mr. Smith, a copy of the
bus routes? A. Yes.
Mr. Chambers: May I see that copy?
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
131a
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor please, I would
like for the record to show that these copies of the
bus routes were brought pursuant to their telephone
request also, made yesterday.
The Court: Very well. Without objection the
record will so indicate.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Smith, do you know anything about the residences
of the plaintiffs? A. Yes. Not exactly, but pretty near.
Q. Would you be able to state whether the bus routes
you have presently adopted would provide transportation
for these plaintiffs to the schools to which they have re
quested transfer? A. As the routes now stand, I could
not say.
Q. You could not say? A. I could not say.
Q. Do you know whether or not all of the plaintiffs re
side more than one and a half miles from the schools to
which they requested transfer?
—144—
Mr. Yarborough: Your Honor, I think that infor
mation is related in the interrogatories.
The Court: Well, if it is, let’s don’t go into it
again.
Mr. Chambers: I just don’t recall seeing it. Yes,
it is. I will withdraw the question.
Q. Mr. Smith, would you take out the bus routes for
Bunn, Louisburg High School, and Edward Best Elemen
tary and High School? A. I have the Bunn School here—
their route.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, I ’m sure that Mr.
Smith would like to keep those maps and we would
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
132a
like to tender them only for the purpose of the
court’s seeing that it would be possible, if these
plaintiffs be permitted to transfer, for them to take
the bus to school. We would have no need for them
in the subsequent hearing, and we request the de
fendants and the court to permit us to introduce
them solely for the purpose of the court’s consider
ing our motion here.
The Court: Well, could the subject of this testi
mony with respect to bus routes be covered by stipu
lation?
Mr. Yarborough: Whatever the facts are we will
stipulate, if they agree.
- 1 4 5 -
The Court: Suppose we take a five-minute recess
and let you see what you can do with respect to a
stipulation.
(A short recess was taken.)
The Court: Gentlemen, were you able to reach
any stipulation with respect to the bus routes?
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, after conferring, I
think we agree to stipulate that with respect to all
plaintiffs, with the exception of the Jones children,
the Kelley children, and the Arrington children,
there would be no problem of bus transportation,
With respect to the three sets of children named,
that is, Jones, Kelley, and Arrington, the school
board would be providing bus transportation within
a mile of their home.
Mr. Yarborough: That is correct, your Honor;
that is. assuming that our locations of the places
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
133a
of residence on the map are correct, and I believe
they are.
If your Honor please, jnst in thinking on the stip
ulation, several of those people live within a mile
of the school and transportation is not involved. I
wouldn’t want the board to get in the fix that it is
stipulated they would provide them (transportation)
—146—
if they live within walking distance of the school.
I don’t recall the wording of the stipulation.
The Court: Well, as I understood the stipulation
—and counsel can now correct me if I ’m in error—
the stipulation in substance is that all of the plain
tiffs except the Jones, Kelley, and Arrington chil
dren would present no problem as to bus trans
portation; and as to those three sets of children,
Jones, Kelley, and Arrington, transportation is now
available within one mile of their homes. Is that
correct?
Mr. Chambers: Yes, sir.
Mr. Yarborough: Yes, I think so.
Now, if your Honor pleases, Mr. Smith has men
tioned in the conference that there is a possibility
that five or six children in one family may over
crowd that bus, but so far as the bus passing or
being close to the house would be no problem; but
what would happen on the crowding of the bus, I
do not know. There is that problem as I understand
it from Mr. Smith.
The Witness: Yes.
Mr. Yarborough: Some of them are quite loaded
when they get to a particular place, and the State
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
134a
—147—
has regulations regarding the amounts of passengers
that can he put on a bus.
Mr. Chambers: Mr. Smith did indicate that. He
also indicated, however, that if there is overcrowd
ing, the school follows the policy of allowing the
bus drivers to make a return trip to pick up the
children.
Mr. Yarborough: That is correct, your Honor.
But that would require rescheduling certain people
who are now getting no buses at a certain time if
the buses had to come back for them due to over
crowding. It would present some problem, as Mr.
Smith says.
The Court: Well, I understand that that is a
problematical situation. Do you have the informa
tion now as to whether or not the buses would or
would not be overcrowded?
Mr. Yarborough: You do not know now, Mr.
Smith?
The Witness: No.
The Court: I understand, I think.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Smith, just one final question. In reference to
the statements just made, do you of your own knowledge
— 148-
know of any of the buses that would be involved if the
plaintiffs here would be permitted to transfer—which are
presently overcrowded? A. Maybe I can answer it this
way—
Q. Do you know of your own knowledge of any of the
buses being overcrowded? A. No. But we did have to
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
135a
do a lot of rescheduling the first of the year to take care
of situations where the buses were overcrowded.
Q. And did your rescheduling alleviate the problem of
overcrowding? A. Eventually we were able to do it.
Mr. Chambers: No further questions.
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor pleases, on Tues
day the question arose about the notice published
in the Franklin Times concerning the pre-school en
rollment of first graders, and your Honor asked me
to get a copy of that ad, and I have it and I would
like for Mr. Smith to identify it.
(Ad from Franklin Times marked for identifi
cation as Defendants’ Exhibit 2.)
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, we might shorten
that. I ’m not sure about the government’s position,
— 149—
but the plaintiffs will stipulate that that notice was
published.
Mr. Yarborough: I f your Honor pleases, accord
ing to the publisher’s affidavit, it was published in
the issue of May 4, 1965, and May 6, 1965, in the
Franklin Times, the newspaper published in Louis-
burg with general circulation in Franklin County.
Mr. Chambers: We will so stipulate.
Mr. Fink: So will the government.
The Court: All right. Now, that is a notice with
respect to what?
Mr. Yarborough: Your Honor, I will read it. It’s
a notice which looks like about six by eight inches,
I guess, approximately a quarter of a page.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
136a
(Mr. Yarborough read into the record Defendants’
Exhibit 2 as follow s):
PRE-SCHOOL ENROLLMENT OF
FIRST-GRADE CHILDREN FOR 1965-66
FRANKLIN COUNTY SCHOOLS
Pre-registration of pupils entitled to attend the
schools of the Franklin County Administrative Unit,
planning to enroll in the first grade for the 1965-66
school year, will take place for a period of five days,
from May 17, 1965 to May 21, 1965 between the
hours of 3 :30 p.m. and 5 :00 p.m. Under policies
adopted by the Board of Education, parents or legal
-1 5 0 -
guardians of such children shall register them dur
ing this period at the school of their choice for
assignment to such school, without regard to race,
color, or national origin. Those whose choices are
rejected due to overcrowding will be notified within
thirty days and permitted to make a second choice
of another school where space to accommodate them
is available. The choice is granted to the parent or
legal guardian of children who are entitled to at
tend the schools of the Franklin County Administra
tive Unit. Preference will be given according to
geographic proximity without regard to race, color,
or national origin.
Teachers, principals, and other school personnel
shall be prohibited from advising, recommending,
or otherwise influencing the decision. School person
nel shall neither favor nor penalize children because
of the choice made.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
137a
Children E ntitled T o A ttend The Schools Of
T he Franklin County A dministrative Unit, E n
tering T he F irst Grade, W ho H ave Been P re-
Registered F or T he 1965-66 School Y ear A t T he
School Chosen By T he Parent Or Legal Guardian
On Beginners’ Day A re Not R equired T o R e-
Register P ursuant T o T his A nnouncement.
Parents or legal guardians of children entitled to
attend the schools of the Franklin County Admin
istrative Unit, not pre-registered in the spring, may
register them at the school of their choice on August
23, 1965, between 9 :30 a.m. and 11:00 a.m., prior to
the opening of schools for the 1965-66 school year;
but first preference in choice of schools will he given
to those who pre-registered in the spring period.
Recross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Smith, this notice refers to “beginniners’ day.”
Now, what is that? A. Beginners’ day would he a day or
an afternoon set aside where the parents or legal guardians
would bring the child to school and they would get some
— 1 5 1 -
instruction. The parents would he instructed mostly as
to what to expect when the children came to school the
next fall. Also, usually they take a short bus ride to ac
custom the children to ride the bus—the parents rather.
Q. Something of an orientation? A. Orientation, yes.
Q. Who sets those beginners’ days ? A. The supervisors
and principals.
Q. And some beginners’ days had been held prior to
the publication of this notice? A. Yes.
Q. That is the reason, is it not, that they were not re
Warren W. Smith — for Government— Recross
138a
quired to re-register if they had picked a school to go to
on beginners’ day? A. That’s correct.
Mr. Chambers: Objection to that question on the
ground the question calls for a conclusion.
Mr. Yarborough: It calls for the witness’ conclu
sion, if the court pleases.
Mr. Chambers: That’s why “they” didn’t do it.
The Court: I am not able to hear you gentlemen.
Will you speak just a little louder, please?
—152—
Mr. Chambers: I will withdraw the objection.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Smith, a good deal was said awhile ago on your
redirect-examination by Mr. Chambers about the pre-school
clinics. State whether or not those clinics are required hy
state law—or certain examinations? A. Certain examina
tions are required by state law, and as a matter of con
venience the health department will set these pre-school
clinics up, and for the most part in individual schools.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, you say “certain examinations.”
State whether or not certain physical examinations or cer
tain immunizations are required by state law before the
pupils can enter the Franklin County school system? A.
That is correct.
Q. And state whether or not these health clinics are
set up by the board of health to perform those physical
examinations and render the required immunizations? A.
Yes, the health department does this.
Q. And as such that has nothing or had nothing to do
with registering them in a school in the first grade. A. No.
Warren W. Smith — for Government— Recross
139a
Mr. Chambers: Objection, your Honor. The wit-
— 153—
ness testified earlier that the students who enrolled
in these pre-school clinics hut did not indicate a
choice at the subsequent enrollment were assigned
according* to the school in which they enrolled for
the pre-school clinic.
Mr. Yarborough: I understood him to say—I don’t
know whether he was referring to beginners’ day,
but I understood him to say—I want him to clarify
that matter as to whether they consider that an
enrollment or only as a list in making assignments.
The Court: Well, of course, the record will show
exactly what the witness has testified to. If there is
any clarification that counsel on either side desires
to make, they can go to that.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Smith, state whether or not frequently children
enroll in the first grade without previously having taken
the required health examinations and immunizations? A.
Have they—
Q. Do they appear for enrollment without having taken
those? A. Yes, we do have some.
Q. What do you do then? A. Well, this past year
— 154—
when some of the students had taken the polio immuniza
tion and there was some conflict between that and the other
immunizations, they did give them some leeway—the health
department.
Q. I mean state whether or not they were required to
take them after they returned to school? A. Oh, yes, they
are required to take them.
Warren W. Smith — for Government— Recross
140a
Colloquy
The Court: What is the relevancy now of this
particular line of testimony about the immuniza
tions ?
Mr. Yarborough: I f your Honor please, only to
clarify what Mr. Chambers brought out. He went
into considerable detail about pre-school clinics and
I wanted the record to show what they were, that
they were not a requirement to get into school, that
sometimes children appeared and were enrolled and
then required to go out to the health department and
take them. It was only a board of health matter
and not a school matter.
The Court: Well, now, am I correct in my im
pression that although these pre-school clinics are
arranged by the state health department for the pur
pose of physical examination of children prior to
their entrance in the school system for the purpose
of giving such immunizations as the law requires,
—155—
that nevertheless when the parents of children or
guardians or others who stand in loco parentis to a
beginner takes a child to some particular pre-school
clinic, that unless there is some subsequent request
by the parents or guardians for entrance of the child
into a different school, that the child would nor
mally be admitted to the school at which he attended
this pre-school clinic?
Mr. Yarborough: Yes, that was up until this
year. This year they required them all to make a
choice, and I understood him to say that about 90%
made choices. But where a child’s parent or guard
ian did not make such a choice and the board of edu
cation had a list of those who had attended, they
141a
assigned that child to the school to which pre-school
clinic the child has been carried by his father or
mother or guardian, assuming that that was indica
tive of his choice of schools in absence of any other
request. Ten per cent of the people of Franklin
County, I ’m sorry to say, did not honor the require
ment that they make a free choice, and the hoard of
education had to do something—and for whatever
reason they didn’t honor it—so they used the next
best thing, assuming that the parents took the child
—156—
to the pre-school clinic of which he or she wanted
the child to enter.
The Court: All right.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, in connection with
the question that was propounded by the court, I
would like to call the court’s attention to the notice
that the defendants have just introduced in evidence,
reading:
“ Children entitled to attend the schools of the
Franklin County Administrative Unit, entering the
first grade, who have been pre-registered for the
1965-66 school year at the school chosen by the parent
or legal guardian on beginners’ day are not required
to re-register pursuant to this announcement.”
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Well, of course, beginners’ day and pre-school clinic
were two entirely different things, were they not, Mr.
Smith? A. Yes.
Q. I mean pre-school clinics were conducted by medical
personnel. A. In some cases it might he that they would
have pre-school clinic and beginners’ day all together when
Warren W. Smith — for Government— Recross
142a
the children came, but the pre-school clinic itself was done
—157—
by the health department, and it might he that that same
afternoon or day they would have beginners’ day.
Q. And this notice said that they were not required to
re-register; that’ s correct, isn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, a good deal was brought out regard
ing individual students about whether or not they could,
on account of your existing schedules, take certain courses
in certain schools. Have you made something of a study
of the high-school applicants involved in this case! A.
Yes.
Q. Could you tell the court which of the plaintiffs, in the
short time you have had, you have found could not con
tinue to take the same courses if they were transferred at
this time ? A. Harold Coppedge has a conflict in schedules.
Q. What is that conflict, do you have it there? A. It
would either be a conflict between English II and World
History or Algebra I and English II.
Q. Between English II and World History or Algebra I
and English II? A. That’s right. In other words, World
History in the Edward Best School would be taught during
—158—
the fourth period, and also English II would be taught dur
ing the fourth period. There is another section of English
II during the third period, but at that time Algebra I is
being taught.
Q. So if he transferred, he would have to give up Alge
bra I, English II, or World History? A. That’s correct.
And I do not know about Home Economics; I found out
about that at the very last minute and I have not checked
that to see if it could be worked in the schedule. I do not
know whether Home Economics could be worked in or not.
Warren W. Smith — for Government— Recross
143a
Q. All right, sir, do you have any other? A. Carl Sat-
terwhite. I notice that he is taking a special course in
Beading in the Gethsemane School and no such course is
offered in the Bunn School.
Q. All right, sir, do you have any more? A. Jean Carol
Satterwhite. I believe this was brought out before. French
I is not offered in the Bunn School,
Q. All right, sir, any more that you have had an oppor
tunity to make a study of? A. Martha Gill has a conflict
between English II and Biology. In other words, a section
of English II and a section of Biology is taught during the
fourth and fifth periods, the only two sections of each
would be taught during the fourth and fifth periods. Let’s
- 1 5 9 -
see—Algebra I—the only section of Algebra I and World
History is taught during the first period. So there would
be definitely one conflict and possibly two.
Q. All right, sir. A. Charles Gill is now taking Agri
culture in the Riverside School; this course is not offered
in the Louisburg School. And there is also a possibility
that there are other conflicts, but I can just look at this
and glance and tell there’s a conflict there.
Q. Mr. Smith, I believe they were made hurriedly pur
suant to a last-minute investigation? A. Yes.
Q. At their request.
Mr. Chambers: Objection.
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all right, we’ll withdraw
the question.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, -what is Louisburg School—is it a
union school? A. Yes.
Q, All twelve grades? A. Twelve grades.
Q. How about Riverside? A. A union school.
Warren W. Smith — for Government— Recross
Warren W. Smith — for Government— Recross
—160—
Q. All twelve grades? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Bunn School? A. Union school.
Q. Gethsemane School? A. Union school.
Q. Perry’s School? A. Union school.
Q. Epsom School? A. Union school.
Q. Edward Best School? A. That actually is one unit,
grades 7 through 12 in one building and six in another.
Q. You consider it as one school unit? A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, with reference to Riverside School
some of these pupils, I believe, or maybe one or two are
attending what is designated as Cedar Street School. What
is that—is it a branch of the Riverside School? A. It’s a
branch of the Riverside School.
Q. State whether or not it’s under the jurisdiction of the
principal of Riverside School? A. Yes.
Q. And how many grades are taught at Cedar Street!
—161—
A. Seven grades, one through seven.
Q. Where is the eighth grade? A. It goes to the River
side location.
Q. Mr. Smith, there are no organized junior high schools
in the county school system, are there? A. No, we do not
have junior high schools as such.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, Mr. Chambers questioned you some
what about the first-graders. State how many requests for
assignment to previously white schools were made in be
half of colored first-graders? A. Three.
Q. And where were those children assigned? A. Two
were assigned to the Bunn School and one to the Louisburg
School.
Q. State whether or not they were assigned exactly pur
suant to the parents’ request?
145a
Mr. Chambers: Yoar Honor, we have gone into
this.
The Court: I think that has been over.
Mr. Yarborough: They have been in it even on re
direct. I just wanted to clarify whether or not they
got in the school their parents asked for.
A. Yes.
—162—
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, Mr. Chambers asked you about
whether the elementary transfers as a rule can get the
same subjects in any elementary school in the same grade?
A. Yes.
Q. Now state whether or not different teachers on the
different stages of the year are ahead of others in the text
book course ?
The Court: I think he has been into that.
Mr. Yarborough: Well, all right, sir. But, if your
Honor please, all of that came from Mr. Chambers’
questioning.
The Court: Well, I know. But since it’s in evi
dence, there is no need to put it in twice. It is my
understanding that the witness testified that different
teachers taught at a different rate of progress and
that at different times of the year one grade, though
teaching the same subject, would be either behind or
ahead of some other grade.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q- Mr. Smith, at this time of year state whether or not
any new courses were started in the month of February?
A. I do not know of any.
Warren W. Smith — for Government— Recross
146a
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all, if your Honor please.
— 163—
Mr. Chambers: I have just one or two questions.
Redirect Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Smith, you stated that Harold Coppedge would
have a conflict in either English II and World History or
Algebra I and English II? A. I f he took English II the
third period, he could not take Algebra I during the third
period; if he took English II during the fourth period, he
could not take World History which is offered during the
fourth period.
Q. These are the only periods that English II would he
offered? A. That’s correct.
Q. And the only periods that World History would be
offered? A. Just one period.
Q. And the only period that Algebra I would be offered!
A. Yes.
Q. Isn’t Harold Coppedge in the tenth grade? A. Yes.
— 164—
Q. Now, is World History a requirement to receive a
high-school diploma? A. No.
Q. Is Algebra I a requirement to receive a high-school
diploma? A. No.
Q. But English II would be, would it not? A. Yes.
Q. Now, Algebra I is a continuing course, is it not! I
mean it will be taught next year? A. Yes.
Q. Is World History a continuing course, will it be taught
next year? A. Yes.
Mr. Tucker: Objection to that, your Honor. We
are talking about this year.
The Court: Objection overruled.
Warren W. Smith—for Government— Redirect
147a
Warren W. Smith—for Government—Redirect
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. It is possible, isn’t it, Mr. Smith for Harold Cop-
pedge—
Mr. Yarborough: Object to what is possible, if
your Honor pleases.
The Court: Well, let him finish his question. Go
ahead, Mr. Chambers.
Q. Harold Coppedge could complete the requirements
—165—
of the high school set by the North Carolina State Depart
ment even if he transferred this year, could he not?
The Court: Can you answer that question?
The Witness: I could not specifically, but I was
going to say it’s possible.
The Court: All right, objection overruled.
Q. I’m talking about if he passed the course. A. He
could get in another 16 units before—
Q. And if he gets in the 16 units and completes the speci
fied required courses in high school? A. Yes.
Q. And Algebra I and World History are not specified
courses that are required to complete a high-school educa
tion? A. No. But, of course, college entrance require
ments are very, very important.
Q. Very, very important? A. Yes.
Q. But it’s not even a requirement for college entrance ?
A. Not in every college, but I don’t know of but very few.
Q. Is reading a requirement for a high-school diploma?
—166—
A. No.
148a
Q. Do you recall the grade that Carl Satterwhite is in?
A. I believe it’s the tenth grade.
Q. Now, did you check to see how many units he already
has? A. No.
Q. Do you know the grade that Jean Satterwhite is in!
A. Well, she’s taking some tenth-grade subjects and some
ordinary, eleventh-grade subjects.
Q. She would not be going to the twelfth-grade this year!
A. No.
Q. And you testified that only one unit of a foreign
language is required for a high-school diploma ? A. I don’t
believe I testified only one unit.
Q. How many units are required? A. No units.
Q. Now, is Agriculture a required course for a high-
school diploma? A. No.
Q. Is Home Economics a required course for a high-
school diploma? A. No.
, —167—
Mr. Chambers: No further questions.
Recross Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Smith, all of these courses that these children
are now taking are being taken at their request or the
parents’ request, aren’t they—I mean with the parents’
consent? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Courses that were picked in their behalf or by the
pupils themselves at the beginning of the school year? A.
Yes.
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all.
The Court: Are there any further questions of
this witness ?
Mr. Fink: I just have one question, your Honor.
Warren IT7. Smith — for Government— Recross
149a
Redirect Examination by Mr. Fink:
Q. Mr. Smith, at what time is Agriculture I, the first
course in agriculture, taught at Edward Best High School?
- 1 6 8 -
Do you know that?
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor please, I don’t
think anything has been said about agriculture at
Edward Best High School on any of these pupils.
I have no particular objection, but it’s something
new.
The Court: Well, there is testimony that Charles
Gill is taking agriculture now but it is not taught in
the school to which he requested transfer.
Mr. Yarborough: That’s right. But Edward Best
is not involved with him.
The Court: That’s all right. Objection overruled.
Go ahead.
The Witness: I don’t know whether I have the
question.
Mr. Yarborough: Will you please read the ques
tion.
Q. (Read by reporter) “Mr. Smith, at what time in Agri
culture I, the first course in agriculture, taught at Edward
Best High School? Do you know that?” A. I don’t know
whether I have any information to give that or not. If
Agriculture 701 is “Ag-I” , it would be the first period.
—169—
Mr. Fink: That’s all, your Honor. No further
questions by the government.
Mr. Yarborough: No further questions from the
defendants.
Warren W. Smith— for Government— Redirect
150a
Colloquy
Mr. Chambers: No further questions from the
plaintiffs.
(A recess for lunch was taken from 1 :00 p.m. until
2:30 p.m.)
A fternoon Session
Mr. Fink: Your Honor, the government now rests
in this preliminary injunction hearing.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, with respect to the
plaintiffs I would like to state that I have discussed
the matter with the plaintiffs and each of the plain
tiffs is still interested in transferring at this stage
of the proceedings if the court so orders, and I would
tender them here if the court would like to ask them
any questions or if the defendants would like to ask
them any questions; and if not, the plaintiffs will
rest.
The Court: Do the defendants desire to cross-
examine any of the plaintiffs'?
Mr. Yarborough: No, sir, if your Honor please.
— 170—
The Court: Any evidence for the defendants?
Mr. Tucker: I think, your Honor, we ought to
make a motion at the present time. I don’t know
whether we want to argue it right at this moment,
but we want to move that the motion of the plain
tiffs not be allowed, that it be denied.
The Court: The record will show the motion.
Now, do you have any evidence?
Mr. Yarborough: Your Honor, may we check with
the clerk a moment about what exhibits were put in?
The Court: All right.
151a
Mr. Tucker: Your Honor, I always assume that
all pleadings are a part of the record.
The Court: That is my understanding.
You don’t have depositions hut interrogatories'?
Mr. Tucker : Yes, sir. We have answers to inter
rogatories. They have been introduced.
The Court: You may introduce the entire record,
if you want to, at one time if you have any question
about it.
—171—
(Discussion off the record concerning affidavits of
Mr. Smith and Mr. Fuller.)
Mr. Chambers: I didn’t understand they had been
offered in evidence. If the defendants propose to do
so, we want to object to certain parts of them.
The Court: Well, suppose you offer in evidence
whatever you want to then. Let the record be out
side the record.
Mr. Tucker : We desire to introduce all of the
affidavits filed.
Mr. Yarborough: We desire to offer Defendant’s
Exhibit No. 1. That is the request for transfer filed
by Christine Elizabeth Coppedge and Luther Cop-
pedge. This was identified on the 8th of February.
We desire to offer Defendant’s Exhibit No. 2. That
is the notice presented here this morning regarding
pre-school enrollment of first-grade children for
1965-66.
Mr. Tucker: And, your Honor, Defendant’s Ex
hibit No. 3 which is the affidavit of Warren W. Smith
which was filed with the court on February 8, 1966;
and as Defendant’s Exhibit 4 the affidavit of Albert
C olloquy
152a
Clinton Fuller which was filed with the court on Feb
ruary 8, 1966 at Clinton.
— 172—
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, as to both affidavits,
Defendants’ Exhibits 3 and 4, plaintiffs would like
to enter an objection at this time.
The Court: All right, sir, I will hear from you.
What is the objection?
Mr. Chambers: Directing your Honor’s attention
to Paragraph 2 of Defendants’ Exhibit No. 3, the
affidavit of Mr. Warren W. Smith, at about the third
complete sentence beginning:
“ * * * That under the provisions of guidelines is
sued by the Office of Education of the United States
Department of Health, Education & Welfare . . . the
Franklin County Board of Education was required
to provide that any pupil in any of the other eight
grades shall have the right . . . ”
We objected to this testimony by Mr. Smith on
Tuesday, and our same objection would be raised at
this time.
The Court: Now, will you state for the record the
basis of that objection.
Mr. Chambers: That the government has intro
duced Government’s Exhibit No. 3 which sets forth
the requirements of the Department of Health, Ed
ucation and Welfare as to the requirements of the
school board in complying with the Title 6 provision;
and that the statement here is a conclusion of law,
— 173—
and that the matter should be left to the court to
C olloquy
153a
determine rather than be testified to by the witness
for the school board.
The Court: Yon are saying, in other words, the
regulations speak for themselves?
Mr. Chambers: Yes, sir.
And on Page 3 of Defendants’ Exhibit 4, Para
graph 4, Mr. Fuller’s affidavit, the last phrase:
“ . . . The undersigned had some doubt that the
incidents were necessarily a result of the aforesaid
applications for school transfers . . . ”
This is not from the personal knowledge of the
witness or the affiant. The same with respect to the
last sentence of Paragraph 5 on Page 3:
“ . . . That in the opinion of the undersigned, the
publication of said names did not cause the above-
mentioned cross burning and other allegations of
harassment to said Luther Coppedge.”
And also, your Honor, with respect to the affidavit
of Mr. Fuller we would like to reserve our right to
cross-examine with respect to this at the hearing of
the cause on the merits.
The Court: Any further evidence for the defend
ants?
—174—■
Mr. Tucker: It depends on your Honor’s ruling.
The Court: Well, I am going to reserve my ruling
on these motions.
I will say this: that an opinion of a witness,
whether it is by affidavit or by testimony, is worth
just as much as the foundation upon which it is
predicated.
C olloquy
154a
Colloquy
Mr. Tucker: We desire, your Honor, to introduce
the answer of the defendants. That will be Defend
ants’ Exhibit No. 5.
Mr. Fink: Your Honor, the government has no
objection to putting in a complaint or an answer, but
I don’t know why that is necessary. I am from out
side the district, however.
The Court: Well, as a rule if a pleading is verified
and contains an admission, the relevant part of one
pleading and the corresponding admission or denial
of the other can be put in. I don’t see, normally, any
need for putting in an allegation in the pleading.
Certainly if it is not verified, I don’t think it would
be evidence; if it is verified, I don’t think it is neces
sary unless it is in the nature of an admission.
Mr. Fink: Well, your Honor, as far as the govern
ment is concerned we have a verified complaint and
—175—
we just assume it is a part of the record.
Mr. Tucker: Our answer is not verified, and the
original complaint is not verified.
The Court: Oh, it’s certainly a part of the plead
ings. I don’t know that the pleadings ever attain the
dignity of evidence unless it’s offered in evidence
for some recognized, legitimate purpose.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, would the objection
be proper if the pleadings here, the answer, is being
offered for the purpose of evidence if it’s not being
verified!
The Court: I don’t know what he is going to offer
—the entire answer in evidence!
Mr. Tucker: Yes, sir.
The Court: Upon what theory!
155a
Colloquy
Mr. Tucker: Well, it has some exhibits—
Mr. Pearson: May it please the Court, I think the
court’s inquiry was whether or not the defendants
intended to introduce any further evidence. I haven’t
heard them answer.
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor please, with those
exhibits, the defendants rest.
The Court: I want to clarify one matter, and that
is this last Exhibit No. 5 which I believe was referred
to as the answer of the defendants.
—176—
Mr. Tucker: I withdraw my offer of that.
The Court: Then there is no further evidence for
the defendants'?
Mr. Yarborough: No, sir.
The Court: Any further evidence for the govern
ment or the plaintiffs?
Mr. Fink: No, your Honor.
Mr. Chambers: No, your Honor.
# # * # *
156a
T his Cause coming on to be beard upon the application
of plaintiffs for a preliminary injunction restraining the
defendants from denying the immediate admission of plain
tiffs to the schools of their choice in Franklin County,
North Carolina;
And the court having conducted hearings upon plaintiffs’
application for an order directing defendants to show
cause why the preliminary injunction should not issue;
Now, therefore, upon the testimony adduced at the hear
ings and from an examination of the pleadings and ex
hibits filed in this action, the court makes the following
findings of fact:
1. That plaintiffs, minor Negro children now enrolled
at schools attended only by Negroes, seek immediate ad
mission to certain Franklin County Schools which are
presently attended only by white students.
2. That pursuant to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the
Department of Health, Education and Welfare [hereafter
HEW] published a “ General Statement of Policies Under
Title VI of The Civil Rights Act of 1964 Respecting
Desegregation of Elementary and Secondary Schools.”
3. That the HEW statement of policies requires the
“ freedom of choice” plan for Grades 1, 9 and 12 in the
Franklin County System, and one other grade for the
school year 1965-66.
4. That the Franklin County Board of Education sub
mitted to HEW a plan of compliance with the Civil Rights
Order Denying Motion for Preliminary Injunction
(F iled February 24, 1966)
157a
Act of 1964, and that the said department approved the
plan on August 31, 1965.
5. That the Franklin County plan of compliance pro
vided for the immediate application of the so-called “ free
dom of choice” plan for Grades 1, 2, 9 and 12 in all schools
in the county for the school year 1965-66.
6. That the HEW statement of policy requires the ex
tension of desegregation by the fall of 1967 to all grades
in school systems not fully desegregated in 1965-66.
7. That the Franklin County plan provides for the
desegregation of all grades in every school of the county
by the fall of 1966, one year earlier than the deadline
required by HEW and only 16 school weeks from the
date of this order.
8. That the “Statement of Policies” published by HEW
permitted the lateral transfer of a pupil attending a school
to which he was originally assigned on the basis of color,
race or national origin, to another school—irrespective
of whether or not the grade concerned had been desegre
gated—in order to (1) take a course of study for which
the pupil is qualified but which is not available in the school
then being attended, or (2) upon a showing that the pupil
either had entered the school system for the first time or
became eligible to attend some other school in the system
by reason of a change of residence into a new geographic
attendance zone.
9. That the Franklin County plan approved by HEW
on August 31, 1965, provided for the lateral transfer of
Order Denying Motion for Preliminary Injunction
158a
students in grades other than Grades 1, 2, 9 and 12 for
the school year 1965-66.
10. That a condition for lateral transfer within the
Franklin County system was that the applicant show
either (1) his desire to take a course of study not available
in the school he was then attending, or (2) that he had
either entered the school system for the first time, or
became eligible to attend another school in the system
by reason of his change of residence into a new geographic
attendance zone.
11. That the defendants caused the plan as approved
by HEW to be published in the public press, but that the
plan as published did not recite the two criteria applicable
to lateral transfers.
12. That plaintiffs applied for lateral transfers in grades
other than 1, 2, 9 and 12, but were denied their requests
on the ground that none had alleged as a ground for such
transfer either of the two criteria.
13. That after school assignments were made for 1965-66
and before school began, plaintiffs were informed that
they were denied admission to the school of their choice
under the lateral transfer provisions because they met
neither of the two criteria prerequisite to such transfers.
14. That notwithstanding that this information was
given to plaintiffs before the 1965-66 school year began,
they neither then nor at two later meetings, in October
1965, indicated their desire for lateral transfers on either
of the two grounds required by defendants.
Order Denying Motion for Preliminary Injunction
159a
15. That the Franklin County schools operate on a nine-
month, rather than a semester, curriculum, and that the
State of North Carolina requires one hour of attendance
in each class for 180 days in order for a student to earn
credit.
16. That some of the plaintiffs are now pursuing courses
of study which would not be available to them upon trans
fer, and that where fields of study could be continued
there is a probability of differing stages of advancement
in the course material at schools which plaintiffs now at
tend and to which they seek lateral transfers.
17. That teacher loads and allocations are made before
the opening of each school year on the basis of the enroll
ment anticipated, and that bus routes and bus loads are
determined before each new school year.
The court now concludes as a matter of law:
1. That the United States Congress, while bound by the
rule of Brown v. Board of Education, 347 U.S. 483 (1954),
yet cognizant of problems encountered in desegregation,
intended by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to effect racial
desegregation in public schools over a reasonable period
of time.
2. That Congress invested HEW with a limited dis
cretion to implement the intent of Congress by requiring
a showing of good faith efforts to desegregate in order to
qualify for federal aid.
3. That HEW, exercising its discretion, has provided
for the desegregation of public schools pursuant to the
Order Denying Motion for Preliminary Injunction
160a
congressional mandate and has specifically approved the
plan adopted by defendants.
4. That defendants’ plan effects total desegregation of
public schools one year earlier than the deadline set by
HEW, and will give freedom of choice in all grades be
ginning in September 1966.
5. That defendants have shown their good faith by
providing for total desegregation one year earlier than
required by HEW.
6. That although the court does not sanction the failure
of defendants to give proper notice of the criteria for
lateral transfers, the conditions adopted by defendants
were cited by HEW in its statement of policies which
served as the guideline for defendants’ plan, and which
was available to the public.
7. That plaintiffs did not base their request for lateral
transfers upon either of the grounds embraced in the
criteria, and therefore have not been prejudiced by the
failure of defendants to give proper notice of said criteria.
8. That there has been no showing of a clear constitu
tional right to the immediate admission of plaintiffs to
the schools of their choice, and that plaintiffs have not
shown irreparable injury from a denial of their requests
for transfer.
9. That plaintiffs as well as students whom they would
join in the new classes to which transfer is sought would
suffer from a transfer at this time, when the current
school year is nearly two-thirds completed, when course
Order Denying Motion for Preliminary Injunction
161a
advancement is not on a parity, and when plaintiffs could
not continue in all the courses which they are now pur
suing ; that such transfers by students in the upper grades
could result in failure to complete the prescribed courses
for graduation from high school, or in failure to meet
college entrance requirements, and that it is not in the
best interest of the minor plaintiffs to transfer to other
schools in mid-term.
10. That the guidelines adopted by HEW do not deny
plaintiffs their constitutional rights, nor are they con
trary to the intent of Congress. 11
11. That defendants have in good faith adopted and
applied a valid plan of desegregation approved by HEW,
and plaintiffs therefore are not entitled to the relief
prayed for.
Now, t h e r e f o r e , i t is o r d e r e d that the motion for a
preliminary injunction be and it is hereby denied.
This 21st day of February, 1966.
/ s / A l g e r n o n L. B u t l e r
Chief Judge, H. S. District Court
Order Denying Motion for Preliminary Injunction
162a
This Cause having come on for a hearing on July 25
and 26, 1966, the Court, on the basis of the testimony and
exhibits herein and the statements of counsel on behalf
of the respective parties, but without a full trial on the
merits, makes the following Findings of Fact, Conclusions
of Law, and enters the following Interim Order to supple
ment the Order of February 21, 1966 and the Findings
and Conclusions contained therein.
F indings or F act
(1) The Franklin County School Board, beginning with
the 1966-67 school year, is operating a “ freedom of choice”
plan for all grades for all students in the system, in ac
cordance with its Desegregation Plan of August 3, 1965,
as amended by its HEW Form 441B, executed by the
Franklin County School Board on April 15, 1966, which
incorporates the HEW Revised Guidelines of 1966. The
Plan, the Form 441B, and the Revised Guidelines are
attached hereto as Appendices A, B and C respectively.
(2) At the conclusion of the 1965-66 school year, 6 of
the 3,488 Negro students in the system were attending
schools attended predominantly by white students and
staffed exclusively by white teachers and staff members.
The remaining Negro students were enrolled at schools
attended exclusively by Negro students and staffed ex
clusively by Negro teachers.
(3) Following the spring 1966 “ free choice” period, the
Franklin County School Board notified the Department of
Health, Education and Welfare, in its “ Estimated Fall
Findings o f Fact; Conclusions o f Law; Interim Order
163a
Enrollment of School System as of September 1966” , that
23 Negro students had chosen to attend predominantly
white schools and all other Negro students had elected to
attend predominantly Negro schools. In the same docu
ment, the School Board notified said Department that no
white classroom teachers were assigned as of May 16,
1966 to teach at predominantly Negro schools in 1966-67
and no Negro classroom teachers were assigned as of the
same date to teach at predominantly white schools. One
white supervisor is to work with all high schools in the
system and one Negro supervisor is to work with all ele
mentary schools in the system.
(4) The defendants’ past practice with respect to staff
and faculty assignment has been to assign teachers to the
school to which the teachers have applied. No Negro
teacher has been assigned to a predominantly white school.
No white teacher has been assigned to a predominantly
Negro school.
Conclusions of L aw
(1) The plaintiffs and plaintiff-intervenor are entitled
to an order enjoining the defendants from racial discrim
ination in staff and faculty assignment and employment
in accordance with the decision of the Court of Appeals
for the Fourth Circuit in Wheeler v. Durham City School
Board, No. 10,460, decided July 5, 1966.
(2) The plaintiffs and plaintiff-intervenor are entitled
to an order prohibiting racial discrimination by the defen
dants in operating the Franklin County School System.
Findings of Fact; Conclusions of Law; Interim Order
164a
I nterim Order
It is Ordered as follows:
(1) That the defendants, their employees, agents, suc
cessors, and all persons in active concert or participation
with them shall not engage in any act, practice, or policy
of racial discrimination in the operation of the public school
system of Franklin Cunty.
(2) A new freedom of choice period beginning August 1,
1966 and ending August 16, 1966 shall be afforded all
Negro children attending, or eligible to attend, the public
schools operated by the defendants for the 1966-67 school
year. Except as herein expressly provided, the choice
period shall be conducted in accordance with the Revised
Guidelines promulgated by the Department of Health, Edu
cation and Welfare in March 1966.
(3) The defendants shall, no later than July 30, 1966,
mail to the parent, or person acting as a parent, of each
Negro child attending or eligible to attend any school in
the Franklin County public school system, a freedom of
choice application and associated papers in the form at
tached hereto, together with a copy of the portion of this
document entitled “Interim Order” . The defendants shall
further cause to be published in each edition of the Frank
lin Times during the choice period the terms of the new
choice period and the text of the portion of this order
entitled “Interim Order” .
(4) Freedom of choice applications made pursuant to
this order shall be treated as if they had been made during
the spring 1966 choice period.
Findings of Fact; Conclusions of Law; Interim Order
165a
(5) All persons eligible for free choice shall be notified
by the defendants that any interference with the exercise
of free choice shall be reported to Robert H. Cowen, United
States Attorney for the Eastern District of North Caro
lina, Post Office Building, Raleigh North Carolina, tele
phone 828-9031, for prompt submission to the Court. Pro
vision shall be made for reasonable notice to all parties
in the case of any application by any party for modification
in this order.
(6) The freedom of choice provided for herein is being
conducted under order of this Court. Any person or per
sons who interfere with any person exercising or seeking
to exercise rights hereunder will be dealt with pursuant
to federal law. The Court retains full jurisdiction over this
action for purposes of modifying this decree in the interest
of justice. In the event of interference by any person
or persons with the implementation of this order, or with
the exercise or enjoyment of rights thereunder, the Court
shall take such action as it deems appropriate under the
circumstances to achieve the orderly and effective elimina
tion of segregation in the Franklin County school system.
(7 ) It is f u r t h e r O r d e r e d : t h a t th e d e f e n d a n t s , t h e i r
em ployees, a g e n t s , s u c c e s s o r s , a n d a l l p e r s o n s in a c t i v e
concert o r p a r t i c i p a t i o n w i t h t h e m a r e h e r e b y r e s t r a i n e d
and e n jo in e d a s f o l l o w s :
That race, color or national origin shall not be a factor
in the hiring or assignment to schools or within schools
°f teachers and other professional staff. Vacant teacher
positions in the future shall be open to all applicants, and
each filled by the best qualified applicant regardless of race.
The Franklin County School Board shall encourage trans
Findings of Fact; Conclusions of Law; Interim Order
166a
fers by present members of the faculty to schools within
the system in which pupils are wholly or predominantly
of a race other than such teacher’s. The Franklin County
School Board shall set up and file with the Court on or
before August 10, 1966, definite objective standards for
the employment, assignment and retention of teachers and
professional staff in a manner not inconsistent with this
order and compatible with the requirements of the Due
Process and Equal Protection Clauses of the Constitution.
(8) This order shall not be construed to limit in any
manner the obligations of the defendants under the provi
sions of the HEW Form 441B and the HEW Guidelines
of March 1966, except to the extent, if any, that they may
he modified by this order.
(9) The defendants shall file a report with the Court
on or before September 12, 1966, with copies of said report
being served upon counsel for all parties, advising the
number of Negro students requesting reassignment to
predominantly white schools and the schools to which such
students have been assigned. Said report shall also advise
of the number of Negro and white teachers and school per
sonnel assigned for the 1966-67 school year to schools in
which the majority of the students are of another race
and of the schools to which such teachers and personnel
have been assigned.
This the 27th. day of July, 1966.
/ s / A l g e r n o n L. B u tle r
Chief Judge, U. S. District Court
Findings of Fact; Conclusions of Law; Interim Order
167a
F r a n k l i n C o u n t y B o a r d o f E d u c a t io n
Louisburg, North Carolina
July 30, 1966
Findings of Fact; Conclusions of Law; Interim Order
Dear Parent:
The United States District Court has ordered changes
to the plan for the desegregation of the schools of the
Franklin County administrative unit. A copy of the Court’s
order is enclosed.
The Court has ordered that every Negro student or his
parent must make a new choice of the school the Negro
students will attend in the coming school year. It does
not matter that you have already made a choice of school.
You must choose again. You and your child may choose
any school you wish, and it does not matter whether that
school was formerly a Negro or a white school.
The free choice period is being conducted under the
order of the court, so that your right to choose your child’s
school, including a desegregated school, will be protected.
If any attempt is made to interfere with the choice you
make, or to harass you because of the choice you have
made, you should report the matter to local authorities
and to the United States Attorney, Mr. Robert H. Cowen,
at the Post Office Building in Raleigh (Telephone 838-
9031).
The choice form you should use to make your new choice
is enclosed. It should be mailed in the enclosed envelope
or delivered by you or your child to the Superintendent’s
Office on Pickett Boulevard in Louisburg. You should make
168a
the choice as soon as possible, BUT NOT LATER THAN
AUGUST 16.
Your school board and all the school staff will do every
thing within their power to comply with the order of the
Court, to protect the rights of all its students to a truly
free choice, and to carry out successfully the desegregation
plan.
Sincerely yours,
Superintendent
Findings of Fact; Conclusions of Law; Interim Order
169a
F r a n k l i n C o u n t y B o a r d o p E d u c a t io n
Louisburg, North Carolina
July 30, 1966
Choice of School Form
This form has been sent you to make a new choice of
the school your child will attend for the coming school year.
It does not matter that you have already chosen. You must
choose again. You may choose any school of the schools
listed below which have your child’s grade, regardless of
whether the school is predominantly white or Negro. This
form must be returned to the Superintendent’s office NOT
LATER THAkN AUGUST 16. I f a student is 15 years
old by the date he makes the choice, or will be entering
the ninth or higher grade, either he or his parent may make
the choice.
1. Name of Child ....................................................................
Last First Middle
Findings of Fact; Conclusions of Law; Interim Order
2. Age .....................
3. School attended last year ..................................
Grade entering in coming school year ....
L School Chosen (Mark X beside school chosen)
170a
Findings of Fact; Conclusions of Law; Interim Order
□
□
□
□
□
□
□
□
□
□
□
□
Name of School
Bunn Elementary & High School
Cedar Street Elementary School
Edward Best Elementary School
Edward Best High School
Epsom Elementary & High School
Gethsemane Elementary & High School
Gold Sand Elementary & High School
Louisburg Elementary & High School
Perry’s Elementary & High School
Riverside Elementary & High School
Youngsville Elementary School
Youngsville Elementary & High School
Grades Location
1-12 Bunn, N.C.
1-7 Rt. 3, Louisburg, N.C,
1-6 Rt. 2, Louisburg, N.C.
7-12 Rt. 4, Louisburg, N.C.
1-12 Rt. 1, Henderson, N.C.
1-12 Bunn, N.C.
1-12 Rt. 3, Louisburg, N.C.
1-12 Louisburg, N.C.
1-12 Rt. 2, Louisburg, N.C.
1-12 Louisburg, N.C.
1-8 Hillsboro Street,
Youngsville, N.C,
1-12 College Street,
Youngsville, N.C,
This form is signed by (mark
proper box) : Signature
Parent □ Address
Other adult person acting as
parent □ Date
Student □
This block is to be filled in by the Superintendent’s office, not by person
signing.
Is student assigned to sehool chosen? □ Yes □ No
I f not, explain: .............................................................................................
171a
P lan Foe C o m p l ia n c e W i t h T h e C i v il R ig h t s A c t o f 1 9 6 4
A dopted B y T h e F r a n k l i n C o u n t y B o a r d o f E d u c a t io n ,
W i t h “ E x h i b i t s A, B a n d C”
The Franklin County Board of Education, Franklin
County Administrative Unit, Franklin County, North
Carolina, in order to comply with the Civil Rights Act of
1964, adopted the following policies contained herein at a
meeting of the Board on May 3, 1965. ( N o t e ) P l e a s e s e e
EXHIBIT “ c” FOR STATEM ENT OF ADM INISTRATION PLAN BY DE
FENDANTS FOR 1 9 6 6 -6 7 SCHOOL YEAR.
I. A summary statement of present racial situations in
the Franklin County Administrative Unit, Franklin
County, State of North Carolina is attached.
II. Type of plan for Franklin County Administrative
Unit, is based on freedom of choice as hereinafter
stated on the part of parents or legal guardian of chil
dren who are entitled to attend the schools of the
Franklin County Administrative Unit. The Board of
Education gives its assurance that the freedom of
choice plan will be carried out in good faith and that
no students will be excluded from participation in, be
denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimina
tion under any program or activity on the ground of
race, color, or national origin. All facilities in any
school are available to all pupils within that school
without regard to race, color, or national origin.
There shall be no discrimination based on race, color,
or national origin, with respect to services, facilities,
activities, and programs sponsored by the schools of
the system.
Appendix A
172a
III. Plans and procedures for compliance with the Civil
Rights Act of 1964 in the operation of the schools of
the Franklin County Administrative Unit, Franklin
County, State of North Carolina.
A. Pre-registration of pupils planning to enroll in
the first grade.
1. During the first week in May in two publica
tions of a newspaper having general circulation
in Franklin County the announcement below
shall he conspicuously published as a legal
document. The Plan F ob Compliance With
T he Civil R ights A ct oe 1964 will be covered
as part of a series of news articles now being
run in this paper. Copies of said plan will be
available in all schools of the Franklin County
Administrative Unit.
P re-begistbation of F irst Grade P upils eob F all 1965
Schools of F ranklin County A dministrative Unit
Pre-registration of pupils entitled to attend the
schools of the Franklin County Administrative Unit,
planning to enroll in the first grade for the 1965-66
school year, will take place for a period of five days,
from May 17, 1965 to May 21, 1965 between the hours
of 3:30 P.M. and 5:00 P.M. Under policies adopted
by the Board of Education, parents or legal guardian
of such children shall register them during this period
at the school of their choice for assignment to such
school, without regard to race, color, or national origan
Free choices that are denied because of overcrowding
will be notified promptly and permitted to make a
second choice of another school where space to ae-
Appendix A
173a
commodate them is available without regard to race,
color, or national origin. In the event more choices
are made for a particular school than can he accom
modated due to overcrowding of facilities, preference
will be accorded to the students choosing that school
who reside closest to that school, without regard to
race, color, or national origin, or to prior attendance
at the school. The choice is granted to the parent or
legal guardian of children who are entitled to attend
the schools of the Franklin County Administrative
Unit. Preferences will be given according to geo
graphic proximity, without regard to race, color, or
national origin.
Teachers, principals, and other school personnel
shall be prohibited from advising, recommending, or
otherwise influencing the decision. School personnel
shall neither favor nor penalize children because of
the choice made.
Children entitled to attend the schools of the Frank
lin County Administrative Unit, entering the first
grade, who have been pre-registered for the 1965-66
school year at the school chosen by the parent or legal
guardian on Beginners’ Day are not required to re
register pursuant to this announcement. Parents or
legal guardian of children entitled to attend the schools
of the Franklin County Administrative Unit, not pre
registered in the spring, may register them at the
school of their choice on August 23, 1965, between
9:30 A.M. and 11:00 A.M., prior to the opening of
schools for the 1965-66 school year; but first prefer
ence in choice of schools will be given to those who pre
registered in the spring period. Parents or legal
guardian will be given the opportunity to re-register
at the school of their choice.
Appendix A
174a
2. Annually after 1965, similar practices will be
followed with respect to registering and enroll
ing children for the first time in the first grade,
B. All other children newly enrolling in Franklin
County Administrative Unit:
At appropriate times there will be furnished to the
parents or legal guardian of children entitled to at
tend the schools of the Franklin County Administra
tive Unit, who are newly enrolling, the forms and
instructions necessary to complete registration and
enrollment, along with information of the Plan For
Compliance W ith the Civil R ights A ct of 1964 For
the F banklin County A dministrative Unit.
C. P upils Being P romoted to the Second, Ninth,
and T welfth Grades
1. The initial assignment of pupils being promoted
to the second, ninth, and twelfth grades of
schools in Franklin County Administrative
Unit will be handled in the following manner:
All pupils in the first, eighth, and eleventh
grades will be furnished by their classroom
teachers on a date fixed by the Board of Edu
cation, prior to the end of the school year, the
appropriate instructions and forms on which
parents or legal guardian of children who are
promoted to the second, ninth, and twelfth
grades and entitled to attend the schools of the
Franklin County Administrative Unit, are re
quired to make their choice of the school to be
attended by such pupils. A period of ten days
Appendix A
175a
from and after tlie date of distribution will be
allowed for the return of free choice forms.
Parents or legal guardian are required to ex
ercise their choice of school, and no pupil will
be admitted or re-admitted to any school until
such a choice has been made as herein specified.
D. Lateral Transfers By P upils Eligible to Con
tinue In a School W here Currently E nrolled.
At the end of the school year, pupils eligible to con
tinue in the same school except where covered by Part
A and Part C above, will be assigned thereto for the
forthcoming year. At a date fixed by the Board of
Education and appropriately in advance of the time
that assignments for the forthcoming year are made,
there shall be made available in all schools and at
the office of the superintendent, appropriate instruc
tions setting forth in detail the procedure by which
parents or legal guardian of a child entitled to attend
the schools of Franklin County Administrative Unit
may exercise their right to apply for a transfer of
such child to a school of their choice. Classroom teach
ers will furnish all pupils information stating that in
structions for lateral transfers are available at the
office of the school principals and the Franklin County
Superintendent. Such instructions will set forth in
detail the Board of Education’s policies respecting
transfers without regard to race for the forthcoming
year as set forth in Part A and Part C above and will
state that each child will be assigned to the school
currently attended in the event the right of lateral
transfer is not exercised within the time fixed in the
instructions. The instructions may also provide for
Appendix A
176a
lateral transfer at other times of the year under spe
cial circumstances as may be fixed by the Board of
Education.
E. Freedom of choice will be offered to all students
in all grades for the school year 1966-67 and each
school year thereafter.
IV. The exercise of free choice will not be restricted by
transportation policies and practices. Transportation
will be provided for all pupils in a school on the same
basis, and without segregation because of race, color,
and national origin.
V. The Board recognizes that staff desegregation has been
declared necessary under the provisions of the Civil
Rights Act of 1964. Joint faculty meetings, in-service
programs, workshops, demonstrations, and other pro
fessional meetings are being held. Meetings and con
ferences will be held to inform staff members of the
provisions of the Board of Education’s Plan for Com
pliance with the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Principals,
teachers, and other staff members will not be dis
charged or demoted on the basis of race, color, or
national origin because of actual or expected loss of
pupils in a school where the pupils they serve or have
been serving choose or are assigned to a school of
their choice. No faculty or staff member of this dis
trict during the school year 1964-65 was refused re
employment or was demoted for the school year 1965-
66 on account of race, color, or national origin, or be
cause of actual or expected loss of pupils in a school
where the pupils they serve or have been serving chose
or were assigned to a school of their choice.
Appendix A
177a
Assubance op Compliance W ith the Bevised Statement
op Policies fob School Desegeegation Plans
Undeb T itle YI o p the Civil B ights A ct of 1964
Franklin County Board of Education (hereinafter called
(Name of Applicant)
the “Applicant” )
HEREBY AGBEES THAT it will comply with all re
quirements in the Bevised Statement of Policies for School
Desegregation Plans under Title VI of the Civil Bights
Act of 1964, issued by the U.S. Commissioner of Education
(hereinafter called the “ Commissioner” ), March, 1966
(45 CFR Part 181), which are applicable to plans of the
same type as the Applicant’s voluntary plan for the deseg
regation of its school system. The Applicant also agrees
that it will comply with any amendment of such Bevised
Statement, unless after the publication of any such amend
ment the Applicant shall notify the Commissioner that it
does not intend to operate a voluntary plan for desegrega
tion in accordance with such an amendment.
If any real property or structure thereon is provided or
improved with the aid of Federal financial assistance ex
tended to the Applicant in reliance on this assurance, this
assurance shall obligate the Applicant, or in the case of
any transfer of such property, any transferee, for the
period during which the real property or structure is
used for the purpose for which the Federal financial as
sistance is extended or for another purpose involving the
provision of similar services or benefits. If any personal
property is so provided, this assurance shall obligate the
Applicant for the period during which it retains ownership
Appendix B
178a
or possession of the property. In all other cases of exten
sion of Federal financial assistance in reliance on this
assurance, this assurance shall obligate the Applicant for
the period during which the Federal financial assistance is
extended to it.
The Applicant has adopted and is implementing a voluntary
plan for desegregation of its school system based on Free
dom of Choice.............................. ............................................
(specify whether freedom of choice, geographic attend
Appendix B
ance zones, a combination of both of the foregoing, or other type of plan).
Applicant should check the applicable box below:
fx) Such plan was accepted by the Commissioner prior to
the submission of this form and is hereby modified to the
extent necessary to comply with the applicable require
ments of the Revised Statement of Policies for School
Desegregation Plans Under Title VI of the Civil Rights
Act of 1964 (45 CFR Part 181).
or
□ Such plan is submitted herewith.
THIS ASSURANCE is given in consideration of and for
the purpose of obtaining any and all Federal grants, loans,
contracts, property, discounts or other Federal financial
assistance conditioned upon the acceptance by the Com
missioner of a Voluntary Plan for Desegregation if such
assistance is extended after the date hereof to the Ap
plicant, directly or through an intervening State agency,
including installment payments after such date on account
of applications for Federal financial assistance which were
179a
Appendix B
approved before such date. The Applicant recognizes and
agrees that such Federal financial assistance will be ex
tended in reliance on the representations and agreements
made in this assurance, and that the United States or the
State agency through which Federal financial assistance
is extended, jointly or severally shall have the right to
seek judicial enforcement of this assurance. This as
surance is binding on the Applicant, its successors, trans
ferees, and assignees, and the person or persons whose
signatures appear below are authorized to sign this as
surance on behalf of the Applicant.
Dated March 30, 1966
Franklin County, North Carolina
(County and State in which
Applicant is located)
Franklin County Board of Education
Box 6
Louisburg, North Carolina
(Applicant’s mailing address)
Franklin County Board of Education
(Applicant)
Mrs. T. H. Dickens
(President, Chairman of Board, or
comparable authorized official)
I f any grades are covered by free
dom of choice for the 1966-67 school
year, state grades so covered: 1-12
and choice period dates: 4-4-66 to
5-4-66
State grades covered by any other
type of plan for 1966-67: ..............
Specify type of plan: ....................
180a
Plaintiffs’ Response to Defendants’ Standards for the
Employment, Assignment and Retention of Teachers
(Filed August 18, 1966)
Come now the plaintiffs, by their undersigned counsel,
and, in response and objection to defendants’ Standards
for the Employment, Assignment and Retention of Teach
ers and Professional Staff, respectfully show the Court:
1. That the standards proposed in paragraph III of the
section on Initial Employment of defendants proposed
plan are subjective.
2. That the areas of evaluation of paragraph V of the
section on Initial Employment in which the Advisory
Committees and Principals are to judge applicants are
subjective and patently vague in that no rating scale is
set forth by which to judge the areas of evaluation and
no minimum evaluation is established.
3. No standards are proposed in paragraph VI of the
section on Initial Employment as bases for the required
nomination and selection.
4. That paragraph III of the section on Assignment is
subjective and designed to perpetuate segregation of staff
and faculties in the Franklin County School System.
5. That paragraphs IY and V of the section on Assign
ment provide no standards as bases for the required
recommendation.
6. Paragraph III of the section on Retention is ob
jectionable in that:
181a
Plaintiffs’ Response to Defendants’ Standards for the
Employment, Assignment and Retention of Teachers
(a) The areas of appraisal are vague and contain no
standards for determining the teacher’s fitness
for retention;
(b) No scale of rating is set forth by which appraisals
are to be made;
(c) No minimum rate of appraisal is established;
(d) No provision is made for periodic appraisals
from which a cumulative appraisal can he de
termined ;
(e) No provision is made for appraisals by more
than one person.
7. That paragraphs IV and V of the section on Reten
tion provide no standards for the required recommenda
tions.
W h e b e f o b e , plaintiffs pray that the Court reject the
proposed standards filed by the defendants and order that
defendants submit new, objective and definitive standards
which will accord due process and equal protection of the
law to the teachers and school personnel of the Franklin
County School System.
182a
Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Objections to
Defendants’ “ Objective Standards for
State and Faculty Employment”
(Filed August 22, 1966)
Plaintiff-Intervenor, United States of America, respect
fully files the following Objections to the “Objective Stan
dards for the Employment, Assignment and Retention of
Teachers and Professional Staff Adopted by Franklin
County Board of Education,” dated August 6, 1966.
1. In general, the Standards proposed by defendants,
while objective with respect to criteria for hiring, assign
ment and retention of teachers and staff members, make
no provision for the disestablishment of presently existing
total racial segregation of staff and faculty members in
the Franklin County system. There is no provision in the
Standards for a public expression by the defendants to
all prospective teachers and staff members and to citizens
of Franklin County that the Board of Education recog
nizes, and proposes to carry out, its obligation to employ,
assign, promote and discharge teachers and staff members
without regard to race and to take all reasonable steps
to eliminate racial segregation of staff and faculty which
has resulted from the operation of a dual system based
on race or color.
2. The Standards provide that “vacant positions shall
be open to all applicants,” but do not make it clear whether
this refers to applications to a particular school or to
applications to teach in the system as a whole. To assign
teachers pursuant to applications to a particular school,
or to encourage applications to be made to a particular
school tends, under the segregated conditions now existing,
183a
Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Objections to Defendants’
“Objective Standards for State and Faculty Employment”
to perpetuate the dual system by requiring the individual
teacher to take the initiative in desegregating the faculty.
The responsibility for disestablishing faculty desegrega
tion is placed by the law on the defendants and the initia
tive for measures to accomplish this end should come
from them.
3. The Standards do not provide, either with respect
to initial employment of teachers and staff members, nor
with respect to retention of teachers and staff members
previously employed, that willingness to teach at a school
in which most of the teachers and students are of another
race, shall be treated either as a qualification for employ
ment or for retention, or even as one of the considerations
relevant thereto.
4. The Standards provide, with respect to assignment,
that “the choice of assignment expressed by teachers or
members of professional staff will be honored to the extent
practicable.” The words “to the extent practicable” are
not defined and do not acknowledge the Board of Educa
tion’s constitutional responsibility to desegregate the fac
ulty. The Standards include no provision that teachers
may be assigned to schools in which the majority of the
teachers and students are of a different race, in order that
the Franklin County Board of Education may meet its
constitutional obligation to accomplish faculty desegre
gation. The Standards likewise fail to implement the
provision of Paragraph 7 of this Court’s Order of July 27,
1966, that teachers and staff members are to be encouraged
to accept assignment at schools in which the majority of
the teachers and students are of a different race from the
184a
Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Objections to Defendants’
“Objective Standards for State and Faculty Employment”
teacher to whom the request is being made, and they do
not disclose what specific steps, if any, defendants are
taking to encourage teachers to transfer to such schools,
5. With respect to the employment of new teachers and
staff members, the Standards do not provide that each
applicant for a position will be advised that Franklin
County operates an integrated school system and that all
teachers are subject to assignment in the interest of the
system without regard to their race or to the race of
most teachers and pupils at the school to which they may
be assigned.
6. With respect to assignment, the Standards provide
that “race, color or national origin shall not be a factor
in the assignment of teachers and professional staff.”
This sentence should be qualified to express the proposi
tion that race, color or national origin may be considered
by the Board for the purpose of disestablishing and cor
recting existing segregation.
7. With respect to the employment of new teachers
and staff members, the Standards do not provide that all
recruiting shall be done on a non-racial basis. Under the
Standards as written, principals and other persons en
gaged in recruiting would be able to continue to engage
in their activities in a traditional manner, with white prin
cipals recruiting at predominantly white teacher’s colleges
and Negro principals recruiting at predominantly Negro
teacher’s colleges, etc. Continued recruitment on such a
basis would tend to perpetuate racial segregation of the
staff and faculty of each school.
185a
Motion to Require Defendants to Eliminate
Educational Disparities
(Filed October 7, 1966)
Plaintiff-Intervenor, United States of America, respect
fully moves this Court for an order preliminarily and
permanently enjoining the defendants, their agents, em
ployees and successors, from failing or refusing to take
all necessary and reasonable steps to eliminate educational
and other disparities between the predominantly white
and predominantly Negro schools in the Franklin County
school system.
This motion is based on the attached affidavit of Frank
E. Schwelb, on the pleadings and other papers on file
herein, the testimony and exhibits introduced into evidence
herein and on evidence to be introduced upon the hearing
of this motion.
186a
Affidavit o f Frank E. Schwelb
W ashington,
D isteict of Columbia, ss. :
F rank E. Schwelb, being duly sworn, deposes and says:
1. I am an attorney with the Department of Justice
and counsel for the Plaintiff-Intervenor in this case. I
make this affidavit in support of Plaintiff-Intervenor’s
“ Motion to Require Defendants to Eliminate Educational
Disparities.”
2. In preparation for the hearing in this cause from
July 25-28, 1966, attorneys and a Research Assistant of
the Civil Rights Division, working under my supervision,
examined portions of the Educational Directory of North
Carolina for 1965-66 applying to Franklin County and
records filed with the North Carolina State Department
of Public Instruction by the defendant Board of Educa
tion and hy principals and other employees of the defen
dant Board, for the academic year 1965-66. Copies of these
records were introduced into evidence hy the United States
as Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Exhibit 29. The contents of this
affidavit are taken from the materials introduced into
evidence as Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Exhibit 29.
3. During 1965-66, the defendants operated the follow
ing schools in Franklin County, North Carolina:
Predominantly
White
Name Grade
Negro
Name CrMfZe
Bunn 1-12 Cedar Street 1-7
Edward Best Ele. 1-6 Gethsemane 1-12
Edward Best H.S. 7-12 Mapleville 1-6
187a
Affidavit of Frank E. Schwelb
Predominantly
White
Name Grade
Negro
Name Grade
Epsom 1-12 Perry’s 1-12
Gold Sand 1-12 Riverside 1-12
Louisburg 1-12 Youngsville Ele. 1-8
Yonngsville High 1-12
I am advised that Mapleville School was closed by the
defendants for the 1966-67 school year but that all other
schools in the system continue in operation. The formerly
Negro schools remain all-Negro in their student bodies
and the formerly white schools remain predominantly or
wholly white. Fewer than 1.5% of the Negro pupils in
Franklin County are attending previously white schools.
4. The records described in paragraph 2 of this Affi
davit and introduced into evidence as Plaintiff-Intervenor’s
Exhibit 29 disclose the following:
A. A ccreditation by State of North Carolina
All of the predominantly white elementary schools in
the system, but none of the Negro elementary schools, are
accredited by the State of North Carolina. All of the high
schools in Franklin County are accredited, hut the pre
dominantly white high schools have been accredited for a
longer time than the Negro schools:
Negro
Year
School Accredited
Gethsemane 1961
Perry’s 1960
Predominantly
White
School
Bonn
Edward B est
Year
Accredited
1922
1924
188a
Affidavit of Frank E. Schwelb
Predominantly
White
School
Epsom
Gold Sand
Louisburg
Y oar
Accredited
1928
1927
1920
Negro
Ye<ar
School Accredited
Riverside 1933
Appendix “A” to this Affidavit reflects the accreditation
status of each public school in Franklin County.
B. Capital V aluation of School Buildings
According to the Principals’ Final Reports for 1965-66,
the capital valuation of school property per pupil enrolled
in the Franklin County School System, by race, was as
follows:
Predominantly White Schools $913.44 per pupil
Negro Schools $285.18 per pupil
Appendix “B” to this Affidavit reflects a breakdown, by
school, of the statistics reflecting capital valuation and
enrollment.
C. A creage of School Property
According to the Principals’ Final Reports for 1965-66,
the acreage of school property per white pupil enrolled m
the Franklin County school system was approximately four
times the acreage per Negro pupil enrolled:
Pupils Acres
Acres
per pupM
Predominantly White Schools 2,688 107.7 .04
Negro Schools 3,457 36.5 .01
189a
Appendix “ C” to this Affidavit reflects a breakdown, by
school, of acreage per pupil.
D. P upil-Classroom R atio
On the basis of the Principals’ Final Reports for 1965-66,
the number of pupils classroom, by race, during 1965-66 was
as follows:
Predominantly White Schools 22.8 to 1
Negro Schools 34.9 to 1
Affidavit of Frank E. Schwelb
Appendix “D” to this Affidavit reflects a breakdown, by
school, of the pupil-classroom-ratio.
E. L ibrary V olumes Per Pupil
s
On the basis of the Principals’ Final Reports for 1965-66,
the number of library volumes per pupil at predominantly
white schools was more than double the number of library
volumes per pupil at Negro schools:
No. of
Pupils No. of Volumes
(ADA) Volumes per Pupil
Predominantly White Schools 2,469 22,347 9.05
Negro Schools 2,809 11,324 4.0
Appendix “E” to this Affidavit reflects a breakdown, by
school, of the number of library volumes per pupil.
F. P upil Teacher Ratio
According to the Principals’ Final Reports for 1965-66,
the pupil-teacher ratios at predominantly white schools
ln Franklin County were lower than the corresponding
190a
ratios for Negro schools, whether based on enrollment or
an average daily attendance:
No. of Pupils No. of Pupils
per Teacher per Teacher
Enrollment (A.B.A.)
Predominantly White Schools 24.9 22.9
Negro Schools 31.8 26
Appendix “ F” to this Affidavit reflects the pupil-teacher
ratio for each public school in Franklin County.
G. Transportation
According to the Personnel Budget for 1965-66, sub
mitted by the defendants, the pupil per school bus ratio
for Negro schools in Franklin County is approximately
one and a half times as great as the pupil-school bus ratio
for white students:
No. of Students
Affidavit of Frank E. Schwelb
No. of Assigned to Students
Buses Buses per Bus
Predominantly White Schools 44 1,931 43
Negro Schools 37 2,373 64.1
Appendix “G” to this Affidavit reflects the number of buses,
and students transported for each public school in Franklin
County.
Frank E. Schwelb
191a
Appendix A
190a
ratios for Negro schools, whether based on enrollment or
an average daily attendance:
No. of Pupils No. of Pupils
per Teacher per Teacher
Enrollment (A.D.A.)
Predominantly White Schools 24.9 22.9
Negro Schools 31.8 26
Appendix “ F” to this Affidavit reflects the pupil-teacher
ratio for each public school in Franklin County.
G. Transportation
According to the Personnel Budget for 1965-66, sub
mitted by the defendants, the pupil per school bus ratio
for Negro schools in Franklin County is approximately
one and a half times as great as the pupil-school bus ratio
for white students:
No. of Students
Affidavit of Frank E. Schwelb
No. of Assigned to Students
Buses Buses per Bus
Predominantly White Schools 44 1,931 43
Negro Schools 37 2,373 64.1
Appendix “G” to this Affidavit reflects the number of buses,
and students transported for each public school in Franklin
County.
Frank E. Schwelb
L t S ^ ST,!-.
x - e . d x t e c Ls c h o o X C ( S i - a d e s > _____________ EC X- e nrt — I - r -±-sz:Tr%.
Bunn (1-6) 3GU* 194 2 ioo%
Bunn ( 7 - 1 2 ) 3 5 7 * 1922 . 100%,
Edward Best (1-6) 1 5 7 1952 100%
Edward Best (7-12) 190 1924 100%
Epsom (1-6) 119 1942 100%
Epsom (7-12) 106 1928 100%
Gold Sand (1-6) 178 1939 100%
Gold Sand (7-12) 168 1927 100%
Louisburg (1-6) 380 1940 100%
Louisburg (7-12) 306 1920 100%
Youngsville H. (1- 6) 149 1943 100%
Youngsville H. (7r 12) 195 1926 100%
White Schools 1347 1322 100% - 100%
Cedar Street (1-7) 123
Gethsemane (1-6) 442
Gethsemane (7-12) 279 1961 100%
Mapleville (1-6) 106
Perry (1-6) 474*
Perry (7-12) 400* 1960 100%
Riverside (1-6) 791*
Riverside (7-12) 703* 1933 100%
Youngsville El. (1--8) 201
2137 1382 0% 100%
*Students not c l a s s i f i e d by grade are not included in these figures.
Total E l e m e n t a r y Enrollment 3484 61 % attend'g non-accred. schs.
Total H i g h School Enrollment 2704 0% a t t e n d ’g non-accred. schs.
Appendix B
(See Opposite)
m \
$£'* |!i
» #
• 1 I
p , : d 1
■*4P \
dm j U :V ' -
Iliil
* s ;
„m: m
zm&im
p»
Appendix B
(See Opposite)
Edward Best: High $191,700 2 2 5 $ 8 5 2 . 0 0
E p s o m $ 2 1 9 ,5 0 0 190 $ 1 , 1 5 5 . 2 6
Gold Sand $331,700 346 $ 958.67
Youngsville High $309,840 344 $ 900.69
Bunn $595,200 740 '$ 804.32
Louisburg $722,000 686 $1,052.47
Total White $2,455,333 ’ 2,688 $ 913.44
Cedar Street $ 16,420.00 123 $ 133.49
Gethsemane $262,000.00 721 $ 363.38
Mapleville $ 6,700.00 106 $ 63.20
Youngsville Elem. '$ 18,848.34 201 $ 93.77
Perry $241,977.08 895 $ 270.36
Riverside $470,177.98 1,517 $ 309.93
Total Negro $1,016,123.40 3,563 $ 285.18
Total Negro
and White $3,471,456.40 6,251 $ 555.34
APPENDIX B
.. ,>V ■
193a
194a
Appendix C
(See Opposite) 85^
E N R O L L E D
E d w a r d B e s t E l e m .
Epsom
Edward Best High
Youngsville High
Gold Sand
Louisburg
Bunn
Total White Schools
Youngsville Elem.
Mapleville
Cedar Street
Riverside
Perry
Gethsemane
Total Negro Schools
Total white & Negro
*These figures are based on
**Not included in total.
A.
157
225
190
344
346
686
740
2,688
201
106**
123
1,517
895
721
3,457
6,145
enrollment.
A P P E N D I X G
A C R E A G E A C R E S P E R p u p XT.*
6 .0 3 8 2
18 .0800
10 .0526
8.2 .0238
11 .0317
40 .0583
14.5 .0195
107.7 .0400
3 .0149
3t Given
3 .0243
10.5 .0069
10 .0111
10 .0138
36.5 .0105
144.2 .0234
195a
Appendix D
(See Opposite)
2 3 . 1Gold Sand
E p s o m
Edward B e st Elem .
Edward, B e st High
Y o u n g s v i l le High
Bunn
L ou isb u rg
1 5
17
6
9
16
29
26
34-6
225
157
190
344
740
686
1 3 .2
26.2
21.1
21.5
25.5
26.4
T o t a l W h ite 118 2,688 22.8
Cedar Street 4 123 30.8
Gethsemane 20 721 36.1
Youngsville Elem. 7 201 28.7
Mapleville 4 106 26.5
Perry 24 895 37.29
Riverside 43 1,517 35.3
Total Negro 102 3,563 34.9
Total white and Negro 220 6,251 28.4
*These figures based on enrollment
197a
Appendix E
(See Opposite)
Sd M a r dSdMard l u t E3.mm» 157 1*3 1.302
SpsotB 225 209 2,842
Edward Beat High 190 176 1,724
Youngsvilla High <$S4t 3? 2 2,634
Gold Sand 346 321 2,641
Bunn 740 672 5,016
Louis burg 686 626 6,188
2,469 22,347
Youngsvilla EL era. 201 157 1,0X1
Mapleville 106 74 624
Cedar Street 123 102* Not Given
Riverside 1,517 1,240 3,134
Berry 895 724 4,034
Getheseraane 721 614 1,911
2,809 11,324
Ratio of books to whites: 9.05 book* per white pupil
Ratio of books to Negroes* 4.0 books per Negro pupil
Ratio of books to all pupils: 5.7 books per pupil
♦Not included in total
♦♦Ratio computed using the ADA.
199a
Appendix F
(See Opposite) 8 ^
Wigiggl
Epsom XO 2 2 5 2 2 . 5 2 0 9 2 0 . 9
Edward Best Elem. 6 157 26.2 143 23.8
Edward Best High 9 190 21.1 176 19.6
\
Youngsville High 14 344 24.6 322 23.0
Gold Sand 14 346 24.7 321 22.9
Bunn 28 740 26.4 672 24.0
Louisburg 27 686 25.4 626 23.2
Total White 108 2,688 24.9 2,469 22.9
Cedar Street 4 123 30.8 102 25.5
Gethsemane 23 721 32.8 614 26.7
Youngsville Elem. 7 201 28.7 157 22.4
Mapleville 4 106 26.5 74 18.5
Riverside 45 1,517 33.7 1,240 27.6
Perry 29 895 30.9 724 25.0
Total Negro 112 3,563 31.8 2,911 26.0
APPENDT-/ F
201a
202a
Appendix G
(See Opposite) 25^
tr o schools to busses p>e.r~ b u s
Bunn 13 599 46
Edward Best Schools 8 279 34.8
Epsom 5 152 30.4
Gold Sand 6 298 49.6
Louisburg 6 361 60.1
Youngsville High 6 242 40.3
White Schools 44 1931 43
Gethsemane 8 552 69
Perry 11 613 55.7
Riverside, Cedar Street
and Mapleville 16 1144 71.5
Youngsville Elem. 2 64 32
Negro Schools 37 2373 64.1
All Schools 81 4304 53.1
A P P E N D I X G
203a
204a
Motion for Further Relief
(Filed April 10, 1967)
Come now the plaintiffs, by their undersigned counsel,
and respectfully move the Court for further relief in the
above-entitled cause and, as grounds therefor, show the
Court as follows:
1. This cause was initially filed by plaintiffs on Decem
ber 8, 1965, seeking a temporary restraining order, and
preliminary and permanent injunctive relief against further
racially discriminatory practices by the defendants in the
operation and administration of the Franklin County Pub
lic Schools.
2. On January 11, 1966, a motion for leave to intervene
in the proceeding was filed by the United States, along
with a complaint in intervention.
3. Answers to plaintiffs’ complaint and to plaintiffs’
motion for temporary restraining order and preliminary
injunction were filed on January 14, 1967, following the
order entered December 16, 1966, extending the time for
defendant to answer.
4. On January 20, 1966, the Court entered an order
allowing the Government to intervene, to file its complaint
in intervention and to add additional parties-defendant.
On the same date, the Government filed an application for
defendants to show cause why they should not be required
to immediately enroll all Negro students, who had been
denied the right to transfer, in the school of their choice.
5. Answer to the Government’s complaint in interven
tion was filed on February 21, 1966, and on the same day,
205a
following hearings, the Court denied plaintiffs’ motion for
temporary restraining order and a preliminary injunction.
6. The cause came on for hearing on July 25 and 26,
1966, following which the Court entered an Interim Order,
enjoining defendants from further practices of discrim
ination in the operation of the Franklin County Public
Schools, ordering a new freedom of choice period to be
conducted in accordance with the Revised Guidelines of
the Department of Health, Education and Welfare, re
straining further consideration of race or color in the
employment and assignment of teachers and school per
sonnel and ordering defendant to present a plan of definite,
objective standards to govern the employment and assign
ment of teachers. The Court retained jurisdiction of the
course to consider any interference, threats or intimida
tions of parents, children or others seeking to exercise
their rights under the Court’s order.
7. On August 6, 1966, the defendant Board filed its
standards for the employment, assignment and retention
of teachers, objections to which have been filed by the
plaintiffs and by the Government.
8. The defendants filed a report of the progress of de
segregation on September 10, 1966, indicating that 49
Negro students requested reassignment and were assigned
to predominantly white schools and that two white teach
ers and one Negro teacher had been assigned to schools
m which their race was in the minority.
9. On October 1966, the Government moved for an order
requiring defendant to eliminate the educational dispari
Motion For Further Relief
206a
ties between the white and Negro schools in the Franklin
County School System.
10. In their complaint, plaintiffs alleged that the defen
dant Board pursued a policy and practice of maintaining
racially separate schools, that Negro and white students
have been assigned on a racially separate basis; that Negro
and white teachers and school personnel are assigned on
a racially separate basis, that Negro students and parents
have consistently been intimidated and threatened when
they seek to exercise their rights to attend school without
consideration of race. The Court’s order of July 27, 1966,
sought to eliminate these practices, but without success.
Negro students and parents who seek to exercise their
right to obtain a desegregated education are still intimi
dated and threatened; teachers and school personnel have
continued to be assigned on a racially discriminatory basis;
the defendant has continued to perpetuate inferior schools
and school facilities for Negro students.
11. The responsibility for desegregating the public
schools of Franklin County has clearly been placed upon
the defendants. Plans or programs which fail, for what
ever reason, to eliminate racial discrimination or segrega
tion are constitutionally inadequate and defendants should
be required to adopt a different plan or to take additional
steps which will in fact desegregate the school system.
12. The plan followed by defendant Board has proven
wholly inadequate to meet defendant’s constitutional duty
of completely desegregating the school system. Defendant
Board proposes no changes which might correct the in
adequacies of its plan.
Motion For Further Relief
207a
Motion For Further Relief
Specifically:
(a) The fear of Negro parents and children, caused by
threats and intimidations, prevents them from exercising
a choice under the freedom of choice plan, the lack of a
substantial increase in the number of students attending
desegregated schools as required by the “Revised State
ment of Policies for School Desegregation Plans Under
Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964” of the Depart
ment of Health, Education and Welfare, Section 181.54
[hereinafter referred to as Revised Rules].
(b) Defendant has continued to employ and to assign
teachers and school personnel on the basis of race and
color so as to perpetuate racial identities of schools and
has failed to take the steps as outlined in the Court’s
order of July 27, 1966 and by the Revised Rules to elim
inate the racial compositions of staffs resulting from past
racial assignments. See Section 181.13.
(c) Defendant has continued to perpetuate its inferior
schools for Negro students. See Revised Rule Section
181.15.
(d) Defendant has continued its dual transportation
system for Negro and white schools.
13. By failing to institute measures for faculty deseg
regation and by failing to take the affirmative steps neces
sary to implement an effective desegregation plan, defen
dants have continued to violate the rights of plaintiffs and
others of their class.
W h e b e f o r e , the plaintiffs pray that the Court advance
this cause on the docket and order a speedy hearing of
plaintiffs motion for further relief and of the other mo
208a
tions and objections heretofore filed in this cause, and,
upon such hearing, enter a decree:
1. Ordering the defendants to present a new plan, with
in a period of time which will permit its implementation
at the beginning of the 1967-68 school year, reorganizing
the Franklin County school system into a unitary, non-
racial system, which will provide for all students, without
consideration of race, being assigned to school pursuant
to geographical zones, for all teachers, new and old, being
assigned to the various schools without consideration of
their race or the race or color of the students attending
the particular school, for the elimination of inferior schools
or school facilities, previously designed for Negro students,
for the elimination of the racially separate transportation
system, for the elimination of racially separate programs
and extra-curricular school activities, and for the elim
ination of any other discrimination in the operation of the
school system based on race or color;
2. Ordering the defendants to pay the costs of this ac
tion and reasonable counsel fees;
3. Retaining jurisdiction of this cause pending full and
complete compliance by the defendants with the Court’s
order.
Motion For Further Relief
209a
Plaintiffs request that the defendants answer under oath,
pursuant to Rule 33 of the Federal Rules of Civil Pro
cedure, the following Interrogatories:
1. For the 1966-67 school year, state for each school:
(a) The number of Negro students, by grades, in each
school;
(b) The number of white students, by grades, in each
school;
(c) The number of Negro teachers in each school;
(d) The number of white teachers in each school;
(e) The planned pupil capacity for each school;
(f) The difference in course offering between predom
inantly Negro and predominantly white schools.
2. For the 1967-68 school year, state for each school:
(a) The number of Negro students, by grades, who
have requested reassignment or assignment to
predominantly white schools;
(b) The number of white students, by grades, who
have requested reassignment or assignment to
predominantly Negro schools;
(c) The number of Negro teachers assigned or to be
assigned to predominantly white schools and the
grades or subjects to be taught;
(d) The number of white teachers assigned or to be
assigned to predominantly Negro schools and the
grades or subjects to be taught;
Interrogatories
210a
(e) The planned pnpil capacity for each school;
(f) The difference in coarse offerings of formerly all-
Negro and all-white schools.
3. For the 1967-68 school year, in connection with the
freedom of choice period, attach a copy of all correspon
dence or information sent to parents and state how the
correspondence or information was delivered or brought
to their attention.
4. State the number of students, by race, who reside in
the Franklin County school unit and have been assigned
to a school outside the Franklin County school unit for
the 1966-67 school year and the number, by race, projected
to be so assigned for the 1967-68 school year.
5. State the number of students, by race, who reside
outside the Franklin County school unit and have been
assigned to a school within the Franklin County school
unit for the 1966-67 school year and the number, by race,
projected to be so assigned for the 1967-68 school year.
6. State in detail the specific steps taken by the Board,
prior to and during the 1966-67 school year, to desegre
gate the teachers and school personnel. If representatives
of the Board conferred with teachers, state the name and
race of each such teacher. If correspondence or other in
formation was sent to teachers, please attach a copy of
alT such correspondence or information.
7. State in detail the specific steps taken by the Board
to desegregate teachers for the 1967-68 school year. If
Interrogatories
211a
representatives of the Board conferred with teachers, state
the name and race of each such teacher. If correspondence
or other information was sent to teachers, please attach
a copy of all such correspondence or information.
8. State the number of new teachers, by race, employed
by the Board for the 1966-67 school year and for the 1967-68
school year.
9. State in detail the steps to be followed by the Board
to desegregate the school system for the 1967-68 school
year.
10. Attach a copy of or state the planned future use of
each school in the school system.
11. Attach a copy of or state any planned construction
of schools in the school system.
12. State in detail the specific steps to be taken by the
Board to eliminate the educational disparities among the
various schools. Please attach a copy of the Board’s plans
in this regard and refer to minutes of the Board by dates
and pages where such plans have been considered and
adopted by the Board.
13. State what changes, if any, have been made in the
bus routes at each school, specifically referring to Board
minutes, by dates and pages, where such changes have been
considered and adopted by the Board. 11
11- State what steps, if any, have been taken or planned
hy the Board to eliminate the racially separate programs,
Interrogatories
212a
activities, and athletics at predominantly Negro and white
schools.
P l e a s e t a k e n o t i c e that a copy of such answers must be
served upon the undersigned within fifteen (15) days after
service of the foregoing Interrogatories.
This ........... day of April, 1967.
Interrogatories
213a
Defendants’ Answers to Plaintiffs’ Interrogatories
(Filed April 26, 1967)
The defendants, answering the numbered interrogatories
served herein upon it by the plaintiffs, state:
1. (a) See Exhibit “A” attached hereto.
(b) See Exhibit “A ” attached hereto.
(c) See Exhibit “A ” attached hereto.
(d) See Exhibit “A ” attached hereto.
(e) Most of the schools in the Franklin County Ad
ministrative Unit were erected between 30 and 40
years ago, and affiant has been unable to locate any
figures showing what the planned pupil capacities for
such schools were.
(f) Basic courses are the same in all schools. For
courses and programs which are not given at every
school in this school system, see Paragraph 6 of Ex
hibit “B” attached hereto.
2. (a) See Exhibit “ C” attached hereto.
(b) See Exhibit “C” attached hereto.
(c) As of this date, no teachers have been employed
for the 1967-68 school year.
(d) As of this date, no teachers have been employed
for the 1967-68 school year.
(e) Most of the schools in the Franklin County Ad
ministrative Unit were erected between 30 and 40
years ago, and affiant has been unable to locate any
214a
figures showing what the planned pnpil capacities for
such schools were.
(f) Basic courses are the same in all schools. Tor
courses and programs which are not given at every
school in this school system, see Paragraph 6 of Ex
hibit “D” attached hereto.
3. See Exhibit “E” (1), (2), (3), and (4). On the first
day of the choice period, there was distributed, by first
class mail, a letter, an explanatory notice, and a choice
form, to the parent or other adult person acting as parent
of each student who was then enrolled, except high school
seniors expected to graduate, together with a return envel
ope addressed to the Superintendent. The texts for the
letter, notice and choice form used were in a form prescribed
by the United States Commissioner of Education, and copies
are set forth in Exhibit “E” (1), (2), and (3) hereto at
tached. Each prospective student known to defendants, in
cluding students planning to enter the first grade, have been
furnished a copy of the prescribed letter, notice and choice
form, either by mail or in person.
4. None.
5. For the 1966-67 school year, fifty-four (54) students,
white, who reside outside of the Franklin County School
Unit, were assigned to a school within the Franklin County
School Unit, pursuant to Freedom of Choice applications;
for the 1967-68 school year, forty-two (42) students, white,
who reside outside the Franklin County School Unit, have
been assigned to a school within the Franklin County School
Unit, pursuant to Freedom of Choice applications.
Defendants’ Ansivers to Plaintiffs’ Interrogatories
215a
6. Race, color or national origin was not a factor in the
hiring or assignments to schools or within schools, of
teachers and other professional staff for the 1966-67 school
year. The defendants having fully complied with Para
graph (7) of the Interim Order entered in this action on 27
July 1966 by Honorable Algernon L. Butler, Chief Judge
of the United States District Court for the Eastern District
of North Carolina.
7. Race, color or national origin shall not be a factor in
the hiring or assignment to schools or within schools of
teachers and other professional staff for the year 1967-68
school year. The defendants will fully comply with Para
graph (7) of the Interim Order entered in this action on 27
July 1966 by Honorable Algernon L. Butler, Chief Judge
of the United States District Court for the Eastern District
of North Carolina.
8. Race, color or national origin was not a factor in the
hiring of teachers by the Franklin County Board of Educa
tion for the 1966-67 school year. Forty-nine (49) new
teachers were employed for the 1966-67 school year, of
which twenty-four (24) were of the Negro race and twenty-
five (25) were of the white race. No teachers as of this
date have been employed for the 1967-68 school year, but
race, color or national origin shall not he a factor in such
employment.
9. The schools of the Franklin County Administrative
Unit are desegregated. The Franklin County Board of Ed
ucation is following in detail the “Revised Statement of
Policies for School Desegregation Plans Under Title VI
of the Civil Rights Act of 1964” , dated December 1966, as
amended, for the school year 1967-68, issued by the United
Defendants’ Answers to Plaintiffs’ Interrogatories
216a
States Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, Of.
fiee of Education.
10. Interrogatory No. 10 is subject to “ Objections to
Interrogatories” filed herein by defendants.
11. Interrogatory No. 11 is subject to “Objections to
Interrogatories” filed herein by defendants.
12. Interrogatory No. 12 is subject to “ Objections to
Interrogatories” filed herein by defendants.
13. Transportation is provided for all pupils in a school
on the same basis, without regard to race, color or national
origin. Any changes made in bus routes were administm
tive changes to provide, to the extent permitted by North
Carolina law, transportation of pupils to the schools chosen
by said pupil or the parent or other person standing in re
lation of parent. The administrative changes were not re
flected in the Board minutes.
14. There are no racially separate programs, activities
and athletics within any of the schools of the Franklin
County Administrative Unit.
This the 24th day of April 1967.
Defendants’ Answers to Plaintiffs’ Interrogatories
( (
f t
1 1
ENROLLMENT TOTALS BY GRADES FOR THE 1966-67 SCHOOL TERM
October 3, 1966
217a
Exhibit “A”
218a
Exhibit “ B”
(See Opposite)
Franklin County Board of Education, Louisburg, North Carolina
NOTICE OF SCHOOL DESEGREGATION PLAN UNDER TITLE VI OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS
ACT OF 1964
(Required by §181.46 of the Statement of Policies issued by Office of Education, U. S. Department of
Health, Education, Welfare)
THIS NOTICE IS MADE AVAILABLE TO INFORM YOU ABOUT THE DESEGREGATION OF OUR SCHOOLS. KEEP A
COPY OF THIS NOTICE. IT WILL ANSWER MANY QUESTIONS ABOUT SCHOOL DESEGREGATION
1. Desegration Plan in Effect
The Franklin County public school system is being desegregated under a plan adopted in accordance
with Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The purpose of the desegregation plan is to eliminate
from our school system the racial segregation of students and all other forms of discrimination based on
race, color, or national origin.
2. Thirty-Day Spring Choice Period
Each student or his parent, or other adult person acting as parent, is required to choose the school
the student will attend next school vear. The choice period will begin on April 4, 1966, and close
May 4, 1966.
3. Explanatory Letters and School Choice Forms
On the first day of the choice period, an explanatory letter and this notice will be sent by first-class
mail to the parent, or other adult person acting as parent, of each student then in the schools who is
expected to attend school the following school year. A school choice form will be sent with each letter,
together with a return envelope addressed to the Superintendent. Additional copies of the letter,
this notice and the choice form are freely available to the public at any school and at the Superintendent’s
office.
4. Returning the Choice Forms
Parents and students, at their option, may return the completed choice forms by hand to any school
or by mail to the Superintendent’s office, at any time during the 30-day choice period. No preference
will be given for choosing early during the choice period. A choice is required for each student. No
assignment to a school can be made unless a choice is made first.
5. Choice Form Information
The school choice form lists the names, locations and grades offered for each school. The reasons
for any choice made are not to be stated. The form asks for the name, address and age of the student,
the school and grade currently or last attended, the school chosen for the following year, the appropriate
signature, and whether the form has been signed by the student or his parent. The race, color, or national
origin of the student is requested for purposes of recordkeeping required by the U. S. Office of lEducation.
Ihe information wifi not be used in any way to discriminate against the student. Any letter or other written
communication which identifies the student and the school he wishes to attend will be deemed just as
V l ld “ ' “ f i t t e d „ „ the ch„,ce form supplied by the school system. The n . „ , « of students and
the schools they choose or are assigned to under the plan *111 not be made public by school officials.
6. Course and Program Information
and l ° £ Uide StUv,deLtS and ParentS in making ? clioice of schooI> Iisted below, by schools, are the courses and programs which are not given at every school in this school system.
CkkiS: Bunn, Ed. Best High, Epsom, Gethsemane, Louisburg, Perry’s, Riverside
yorld History: Bunn, Ed. Best High, Gethsemane, Gold Sand, Louisburg, Perry’s, Riverside, Youngsville High
Economics & Sociology: Bunn,Epsom, Gethsemane, Louisburg, Riverside, Youngsville High Perry’s
Geography: Bunn, Riverside ’ 1
Negro History: Gethsemane, Perry’s
G eneral B u sin ess : Bunn
Am erican G overnm ent: L ou isburg , R iversid e
Advanced A lgebra & T rigon om etry : Bunn, Epsom , Louisburg
A gricu lture: Bunn, Edward B est. Gold Sand, R iversid e , Y ou n gsv ille High
B u sin ess Math: L ou isburg , Bunn
Qg.»g,ral Edward Best High, Epsom, Gethsemane, Louisburg, Perry’s, Riverside
Spanish 1: Bunn, Epsom
FWoTTi Gethsemane, louisburg, Perry’s, Riverside,-Youngsville High
“ u™ Gold&id ' l " " ' hllr- Rivetaide. Youngsville High
^ .T i l hS I " 1 E h B r 1’ B“ " ' High
Chemistry: Bunn Epsom, Louisburg, Gethsemane, Perry’s, Riverside Youngsville High
S S ' Z . T j i ' S S f * — ' G» ld S“ d. L o-ah -g , Riverside
t E£ ,S 'i ! ! if h G“ 'd Perrys, Riverside, Youngsville High
Exhibit “B”
(See Opposite) E5”
(Required by § 181.46 of the Statement of Policies issued by Office of Education, U. S. Department of
Health, Education, Welfare)
THIS NOTICE IS MADE AVAILABLE TO INFORM YOU ABOUT THE DESEGREGATION OF OUR SCHOOLS. KEEP A
COPY OF THIS NOTICE. IT WILL ANSWER MANY QUESTIONS ABOUT SCHOOL DESEGREGATION
1. Desegration Plan in Effect
The Franklin County public school system is being desegregated under a plan adopted in accordance
with Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The purpose of the desegregation plan is to eliminate
from our school system the racial segregation of students and all other forms of discrimination based on
race, color, or national origin.
2. Thirty-Day Spring Choice Period
Each student or his parent, or other adult person acting as parent, is required to choose the school
the student will attend next school year. The choice period will begin on April 4, 1966, and close
May 4, 1966.
3 . Explanatory Letters and School Choice Forms
On the first day of the choice period, an explanatory letter and this notice will be sent by first-class
mail to the parent, or other adult person acting as parent, of each student then in the schools who is
expected to attend school the following school year. A school choice form will be sent with each letter,
together with a return envelope addressed to the Superintendent. Additional copies of the letter,
this notice and the choice form are freely available to the public at any school and at the Superintendent’s
office.
4. Returning the Choice Forms
Parents and students, at their option, may return the completed choice forms by hand to any school
or by mail to the Superintendent’s office, at any time during the 30-day choice period. No preference
will be given for choosing early during the choice period. A choice is required for each student. No
assignment to a school can be made unless a choice is made first.
5 . Choice Form Information
The school choice form lists the names, locations and grades offered for each school. The reasons
for any choice made are not to be stated. The form asks for the name, address and age of the student,
the school and grade currently or last attended, the school chosen for the following year, the appropriate
signature, and whether the form has been signed by the student or his parent. The race, color, or national
origin of the student is requested for purposes of recordkeeping required by the U. S. Office of f Education.
The information will not be used in any way to discriminate against the student. Any letter or other written
communication which identifies the student and the school he wishes to attend will be deemed just as
valid as if submitted on the choice form supplied by the school system. The names of students and
the schools they choose or are assigned to under the plan will not be made public by school officials.
6. Course and Program Information
To guide students and parents in making a choice of school, listed below, by schools, are the courses
and programs which are not given at every school in this school system.
C ivics: Bunn, Ed. Best High, Epsom, Gethsemane, Louisburg, Perry’s, Riverside
World History: Bunn, Ed. Best High, Gethsemane, Gold Sand, Louisburg, Perry’s, Riverside, Youngsville High
Economics & Sociology: Bunn,Epsom, Gethsemane, Louisburg, Riverside, Youngsville High, Perry’ s
Geography: Bunn, Riverside
Negro History: Gethsemane, Perry’s
G eneral B u sin e ss : Bunn
Am erican G overnm ent: L ou isburg , R iversid e
Advanced A lgebra & T rigonom etry : Bunn, Epsom , Louisburg
A gricu lture: Bunn, Edward B est, Gold Sand, R iversid e , Y ou n gsv ille High
B u sin ess Math: L ou isburg , Bunn
General Math: Edward Best High, Epsom, Gethsemane, Louisburg, Perry’s, Riverside
Spanish I: Bunn, Epsom
French I: Bunn, Gethsemane, Louisburg, Perry’s, Riverside,.Youngsville High
Etench I): Edward Best High, Gethsemane, Louisburg, Perry’ s, Riverside, Youngsville High
Spanish II: Bunn, Gold Sand 5
Physical Education & Health II: Bunn, Perry’s, Youngsville High
Advanced Biology: Riverside
Chemistry: Bunn, Epsom, Louisburg, Gethsemane, Perry’s, Riverside, Youngsville High
£hyslcs: Bunn, Edward Best High, Gethsemane, Gold Sand, Louisburg, Riverside
Shorthand: Bunn, Epsom, Louisburg
’ > 11: Bunn- Edward High, Epsom, Gold Sand, Louisburg, Perry’s, Riverside, Youngsville High
Bookkeeping: Bunn, Gold Sand, Louisburg
Music I, II: Riverside
Band: Louisburg, Riverside
Special Education: Bunn, Perry’s, Youngsville Elementary, Riverside
Special Education for Accelerated: Louisburg
10. Students Moving Into the Community
■ A cM ce ° f scho<l1 for any student who will be new to the school system may be made durum the
spring 30-day choice period or at any other time before he enrolls in school. An explanatory letter* this
notice and the school choice form will be given out for each new student as soon as the school system
knows about the student. At least seven days will be allowed for the return of the choice form when a
choice is made after the spring 30-day choice period. A choice must be made for each student No
assignment to any school can be made unless a choice is made first.
11. Students Entering First Grade
The parent, or other adult person acting as parent, of every child entering the first grade is required
to choose the school his child will attend. Choices will be made under the same free choice process used
tor students new to the school system in other grades, as provided in paragraph 10.
12. Priority of Late Choices
No choice made after the end of the spring 30-day choice period may be denied for any reason other
than overcrowding. In the event of overcrowding, choices made during the 30-day choice period will
have first priority Overcrowding will be determined by the standard provided for in paragraph 8.
Any parent or student whose first choice is denied because of overcrowding will be given a second choice
in the manner provided for in paragraph 9.
13. Tests, Health Records and Other Entrance Requirements
Any academic tests or other procedures used in assigning students to schools, grades, classrooms,
sections, courses of study, or for any other purpose, will be applied uniformly to all students without
regard to ra.ce, color or national origin. No choice of school will be denied because of failure at the
time of choice to provide any health record, birth certificate, or other document. The student' will
be tentatively assigned in accordance with the plan and the choice made, and given ample time to
obtain any required document. Curriculum, credit, and promotion procedures will not be applied in
such a way as to hamper freedom of choice of any student.
14. Choices Once Made Cannot he Altered
. ? nc^u c^?*c.e ^as been submitted, it may not be changed, even though the choice period has not
en ed. I he choice is binding for the entire school year to which it applies, except in the case of
T0in-r>,e lnF hardship (2) change of residence to a place where another school is closer, (3) the
availability of a school designed to fit the special needs of a physically handicapped student, (4) the
avaihibihty at another school of a course of study required by the student, which is not available at the
school chosen.
15. All Other Aspects of Schools Desegregated
All school-connected services, facilities, athletics, activities and programs are open to all on a
desegregated ba,sis. A student attending school for the first time on a desegregated basis may not be
subject to any disqualification or waiting period for participation in activities and programs, including
athletics, which might otherwise apply because he is a transfer student. All transportation furnished
by the school system will also operate on a desegregated basis. Faculties will be desegregated, and no
staff member will lose his position because of race, color or national origin. This includes any case
w here less staff is needed because schools are closed or enrollment is reduced.
16. Attendance Across School System Lines
No arrangement will be made, or permission granted, by this school system for any students living
in the community it serves to attend school in another school svstein, where this would tend to limit
desegregation, or where the opportunity is not available to all students without regard to race, color or
national origin. No arrangement will be made, or permission granted, by this school system for any
students living in another school system to attend school in this system, where this would tend to limit
desegregation, or where the opportunity is not available to all students without regard to race, color or
national origin.
17. Violations To Be Reported
It is a violation of our desegregation plan for any school official or teacher to influence or coerce any
person in the making of a choice or to threaten any person with penalties or promise favors for any
choice made. It is also a violation of Federal regulations for any person to intimidate, threaten, coerce,
retaliate or discriminate against any individual for the purpose of interfering with the free making of a
choice of school. Any person having any knowledge of any violation of these prohibitions should report
the facts immediately by mail or phone to the Equal Educational Opportunities Program, U.S. Office of
Education, Washington, D.C., 20202 (telephone 202-962-0333). The name of any person reporting
any violation will not be disclosed without his consent. Any other violation of the desegregation plan
or other discrimination based on race, color, or national origin in the school system is also a violation of
Federal requirements, and should likewise be reported. Anyone with a complaint to report should first
bring it to the attention of local school officials, unless he feels it would not be helpful to do so. If local
officials do not correct the violation promptly, any person familiar with the facts of the violation should
report them immediately to the U.S. Office of Education at the above address or phone number.
B6TS
Page; 2 of Notice
7. Signing the Choice Form
A choice form may be signed by a parent or other adult person acting as parent. A student who
has reached the age of 15 at the time of choice, or will next enter the ninth or any higher grade, may sign
his own choice form. The student’s choice shall be controlling unless a different choice is exercised by
his parent before the end of the period during which the student exercises his choice.
8. Processing oj Choices
No choice will be denied for any reason other than overcrowding. In cases where granting all
choices for any school would cause overcrowding, the students choosing the school who live closest to
it will be assigned to that school. Whenever a choice is to be denied, overcrowding will be determined
by a uniform standard applicable to all schools in the system.
9. Notice oj Assignment, Second Choice
m1 stndenj S and t]iei.r P ^ n ts will be promptly notified in writing of their school assignments,
should any student be denied his choice because of overcrowding he will be promptly notified and <nven
a choice among all other schools in the system where space is available.
10. Students Moving Into the Community
A choice of school for any student who will be new to the school system may be made during the
spring 30-day choice period or at any other time before he enrolls in school. An explanatory letter* this
notice and the school choice form will be given out for each new student as soon as the school system
knows about the student. At least seven days will be allowed for the return of the choice form when a
choice is made after the spring 30-day choice period. A choice must be made for each student, No
assignment to any school can be made unless a choice is made first.
11. Students Entering First Grade
The parent, or other adult person acting as parent, of every child entering the first grade is required
to choose the school his child will attend. Choices will be made under the same free choice process used
for students new to the school system in other grades, as provided in paragraph 10.
12. Priority oi Late Choices
219a
Exhibit “ C”
(See Opposite) I3F*
ASSIGNMENT TOTALS BY GRADES FOR THE 1 9 6 7 -6 8 SCHOOL TERM
A p r i l 1 4 , 1967
l , b ,
SCHOOL U
6ra
fH
ded
Grade 1 Grade 2 Grade 3 Grade 4 Grade 5 Grade 6 Grade 7 Grade 8 Grade 9 Grade 10 Grade 11 Grade 12 | Total Teachers
W NW W NW W NW W NW w NW W m W Mi y NW W NW W NW VI MW W NW W NW | tf NW W NW
'n
5 7 6 7 7 0 2 5 6 6 4 i 4 8 51 1 5 3 1 6 1 1 6 0 2 5 3 1 51 2 II
Cedar
Street 6 1 3 1 5 1 4 8 11 8
Ed. Oast
Else 1 9 2 1 2 5 2 2 1 9 2 6
Ed, Best
High 2 4 3 4 3 4 2 8 2 9 2 5 1 |
Epson
1 8 2 1 1 7 19 2 0 2 0 19 2 0 77 ........... 1 8 1 4 21 1
Sethseaane
13 5 1 4 7 5 4 4 9 6 4 6 3 5 8 5 6 4 8 4 7 36 3 5
told Send
2 4 2 4 3 2 2 1 3 0 2 9 3 1 3 5 3 5 3 3 2 7 21
touisburg
6 5 1 5 4 5 0 1 6 5 3 4 2 2 5 5 ... ... 6 5 4 6 2 5 5 7 4 5 4 4 5 1 3 4 2 5 3^
ry's
15 3 9 5 5 5 6 9 3 5 2 6 7
—
7 5 5 6 7 8 6 7 60 5 3
Overside
16 3 5 1 2 3 1 2 1 1 2 5 . 1 2 7 1 0 6 1 2 0 1 3 8 1 2 7 1 0 2 128 8 3
Voungsvillem, 1 3 13 15 1 7 13 12 15 2 0 2 5
toangsvtlle
— u . L
1 7 2 0 2 2 & 2 1 3 1 1 9 3 2 2 8 3 7 30
221a
Exhibit “ D”
(Same as Exhibit “B” )
Exhibit “ E” (1 )
(See Opposite)
L E T TE R TO PAREN TS
F o r U se D u r in g A n n u a l 3 0 -D a y C h o ic e P e r io d
(Required by §181.46 of the Statement of Policies issued by Office of Education, 11 S. Department of
Health, Education, Welfare)
Franklin County Board of Education, Louisburg, North Carolina
Dear Parent: March 1, 1967
Your school system's desegregation plan under the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is being continued for
the coming school year. The purpose of the plan is to eliminate the dual structure of separate schools
for children of different races.
The plan requires every student or his parent to choose the school the student will attend in the coming
school year. It does not matter which school the student is attending this year, and it does not matter
whether that school was formerly a white or a Negro school. You and your child may select any school
you wish.
A choice of school is required for each student. A student cannot be enrolled at any school next school
year unless a choice of schools is made. This year there will be a 30-day choice period, beginning
March 1, 1967, and ending March 31, 1967.
A choice form listing the available schools and grades is enclosed. This form must be filled out and
returned. You may mail it in the enclosed envelope, or deliver it by hand to any school or to the address
above any time during the 30-day choice period. No one may require you to file your choice form before
the end of the choice period. No preference will be given for choosing early during the choice period.
No principal, teacher, or other school official is permitted to influence or dissuade anyone from choosing
a school where a desegregated education can be obtained. No one is permitted to favor or penalize
any student or other person because of a choice made. Once a choice is made, it cannot be changed
except for serious hardship.
Also enclosed is an explanatory notice giving full details about the desegregation plan. It tells you how
to exercise your rights under the plan, and tells you how teachers, schoolbuses, sports, and other activities
are being desegregated.
Your School Board and the school staff will do everything we can to see to it that the rights of all
students are protected and that our desegregation plan is carried out successfully.
Franklin County Board of Education
223a
Exhibit “ E” (2 )
(Same as Exhibit “B” )
Exhibit “ E” (3 )
CHOICE OF SCHOOL FORM
(Required by §181.46 of the Statement of Policies issued by Office of Education, U. S. Department of
Health, Education, Welfare)
Franklin County Board of Education, Louisburg, North Carolina
March 1 1967
C hoice of School F orm
This form is provided for you to choose the school your child will attend for the coming school year. It
does not matter which school the child has been attending, and it does not matter whether the school
you choose was formerly a white or a Negro school. No student can be enrolled without making a
choice of school. This form must either be brought to any school or mailed to the Superintendent’s
office at the address above by March 31, 1967. If the student is 15 years old by the date of choice, or
will be entering the ninth or a higher grade, either the student or his parent may make the choice.
1. Name of C h ild ______________________ ______
Last
2. Age ---------------------- R a ce ............................ ............
3. School and grade currently or last attended__
4. School Chosen (Mark X beside school chosen)
Name of School
Bunn Elementary & High School,
a Cedar Street Elementary School
□ Edward Best Elementary School
□ Edward Best High Schooln Epsom Elementary & High School
□ Gethsemane Elementary & High School
□ Gold Sand Elementary & High School
□ Louisburg Elementary & High School
□ Perry’s Elementary & High School
□ Riverside Elementary & High School
□ Youngsville Elementary School
□ Youngsville Elementary & High School
Grades
1-12
1-7
1-6
7-12
1-12
1-12
1-12
1-12
1-12
1-12
1-8
1-12
First Middle
-------- ------------------------- Grade
Location
Bunn, N. C.
Rt. 3, Louisburg, N. C.
Rt. 2, Louisburg, N. C.
Rt. 4, Louisburg, N. C.
Rt. 1, Henderson, N. C.
Bunn, N. C.
Rt. 3, Louisburg, N, C.
Louisburg, N. C.
Rt. 2, Louisburg, N. C.
Louisburg, N C.
Hillsboro Street, Youngsville, N. C.
College Street, Youngsville, N. C.
This form is signed by (mark
proper box):
Parent □
Other adult person acting as
parent □
Student □
Signature
Address .
Date
This block is to be filled in by the Superintendent’s office
Is student assigned to school chosen? □ Yes □ No
, not by person signing.
If not, explain:
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225a
226a
Defendants’ Answers to Plaintiffs’ Interrogatories
(Filed July 25, 1967)
The defendants, answering Interrogatories Numbers 10,
11 and 12 heretofore served upon defendants by plaintiffs
state:
Interrogatory No. 10. It is the plan of the Franklin County
Board of Education when funds shall be available, to con
solidate the nine existing high schools into four high
schools, grades 9-12; it is anticipated that one of these four
high schools will be located at the present site of Louisburg
High School and will be part of a union school, grades 1-12;
the three other high schools will be located in areas of the
then centers of population, and with regard to the feasibility
and economy of transporting pupils to these high schools.
The existing facilities, with needed improvements and ad
ditions, of one or more, up to three, of the following schools
may be utilized for the three high schools in addition to
Louisburg, namely: Bunn, Edward Best High, Epsom,
Gethsemane, Gold Sand, Perry’s, Riverside, Youngsville
High. In the alternative, one or more of the three additional
high schools may be constructed on new sites, depending ob
the factors of population and feasibility and economy of
transportation.
Upon the completion of the high school consolidation
program, the existing facilities, with needed improvements
and additions, at Bunn, Edward Best High, Epsom, Geth
semane, Gold Sand, Perry’s Riverside, Youngsville Ele
mentary and Youngsville High Schools may be utilized for
elementary schools, grades 1-8.
Upon the completion of the high school consolidation pro
gram, the present facilities of Cedar Street and Edward
227a
Defendants’ Answers to Plaintiffs’ Interrogatories
Best Elementary Schools will not be utilized for school
purposes.
Interrogatory No. 11. See answer to Interrogatory No. 10.
Interrogatory No. 12. See answer to Interrogatory No. 10.
hi the judgment of the defendant Board of Education, there
are no “educational” disparities among the various schools.
This the 21st day of July 1967.
228a
Defendants’ Response to Plaintiffs’ Motion
for Further Relief
(Filed May 9, 1967)
Now c o m e the defendants, through their counsel, and file
this Response to Plaintiffs’ Motion for Further Relief dated
6 April 1967 as follows:
1. It is admitted that this cause was filed by plaintiffs on
or about 8 December 1965, but the defendants deny that
they were at that time or are now committing racially dis
criminatory practices in the operation and administration
of the public schools of the Franklin County Administrative
Unit.
2. It is admitted that on or about 11 January 1966 a
Motion for leave to intervene and a complaint in interven
tion were filed by the plaintiff-intervenor, but it is denied
that the defendants were at that time or are now operating
a racially discriminatory system in the Franklin County
Administrative Unit.
3. Admitted.
4. Admitted.
5. Answering Paragraph 5, the defendants admit that on
21 February 1966, Honorable Algernon L. Butler, Chief
Judge of the United States District Court for the Eastern
District of North Carolina, entered an Order denying plain
tiffs’ Motion for a preliminary injunction and concluding
as a matter of law that the defendants had in good faith
adopted and applied a valid plan approved by the United
States Department of Health, Education and Welfare; that
L
229a
said Order entered on 21 February 1966 is respectfully
asked to be taken as a part of this Response, as if the
same were here copied verbatim.
6. Answering Paragraph 6, the defendants say that on
27 July 1966, Honorable Algernon L. Butler, Chief Judge
of the United States District Court for the Eastern District
of North Carolina, entered an Interim Order and caused
the same to be filed on said date. That said Interim Order
dated 27 July 1966 is hereby referred to for its terms, and
the same is respectfully asked to be taken as a part of this
Response, as if the same were here copied verbatim. Fur
ther answering said Paragraph the defendants say that they
have complied with each and every provision of said In
terim Order conscientiously and in good faith.
7. Admitted.
8. Answering Paragraph 8, the defendants say that un
der date of 10 September 1966 they filed with the United
States District Court for the Eastern District of North
Carolina, a Report of the Number of Negro Students As
signed to Predominantly White Schools and Number of
Negro and White Teachers and School Personnel Assigned
Duties in Schools in Which Majority of Students are of
Another Race. That said Report showed that 49 Negro
students requested assignments to predominantly white
schools and were assigned to such schools. That two white
teachers were assigned to a school in which the majority
of the students were of a race other than such teachers’, and
that two Negro teachers were assigned to schools in which
the majority of the students were of a race other than
Defendants’ Response to Plaintiffs’ Motion
for Further Relief
230a
such teachers’, that two Negro and four White Staff Mem
bers were assigned duties in all schools in the Franklin
County Administrative Unit, including all schools in which
the majority of students were of a race other than such
Staff Members’, and that three White Staff Members were
assigned duties in schools in which the majority of students
were of a race other than such Staff Members’ That said
Report dated 10 September 1966 is respectfully asked to
be taken as a part of this Response, as if the same were
here copied verbatim.
9. It is admitted that in October 1966 the plaintiff-
intervenor moved for an Order requiring the defendants
to eliminate certain alleged disparities, but the defendants
deny that they were then or are now operating any racially
discriminatory schools in the Franklin County Adminis
trative Unit.
10. That Paragraph 10 does not contain a true state
ment regarding the matters and things therein alleged, and
paragraph 10 is therefore denied. Further answering said
Paragraph the defendants say that they are operating in
good faith a non-racially discriminatory school system, in
full compliance with the Orders of this Court and Rules and
Regulations issued by the Office of Education of the United
States Department of Health, Education and Welfare. 11
11. Answering Paragraph 11, the defendants say that
they are operating a desegregated school system, and that
there is no racial discrimination or segregation in said
school system. Therefore, Paragraph 11 is denied.
Defendants’ Response to Plaintiffs’ Motion
for Further Relief
231a
12. Answering Paragraph 12, the defendants say that
they are operating a desegregated school system wholly in
compliance with the Orders of this Court and with Rules
and Regulations issued by the Office of Education of the
United States Department of Health, Education and Wel
fare. Specifically answering the sub-sections of Paragraph
12 these defendants say:
(a) That each student in the schools of the Franklin
County Administrative Unit is attending the school selected
by said student or his or her parent or person acting as
parent, without regard to race, said selection having been
freely and voluntarily made by such student or parent or
person acting as parent, under the freedom of choice plan
in effect in said Administrative Unit, without threats or
intimidations by any defendant or other school personnel,
and without any threat or intimidation by any other person,
to the knowledge of the defendants.
(b) That the allegations of sub-section (b) are untrue
and are denied, the true facts being that the defendants
have fully complied with each and every provision of the
Order entered on 27 July 1966.
(c) That the allegations of sub-section (c) are untrue
and are denied.
(d) That the allegations of sub-section (d) are untrue
and are denied.
13. The allegations of Paragraph 13 are wholly untrue
and are denied.
W h e r e f o r e , the defendants pray that the relief sought
in Plaintiffs’ Motion for further relief he denied, and that
Defendants’ Response to Plaintiffs’ Motion
for Further Relief
232a
that defendants be permitted to operate the schools of the
Franklin Connty Administrative Unit in compliance with
Orders heretofore entered by Honorable Algernon L. But
ler, Chief Judge of the United States District Court for
the Eastern District of North Carolina.
Respectfully submitted, this the 9th day of May 1967.
Defendants’ Response to Plaintiffs’ Motion
for Further Relief
233a
Baltimore, Maryland
April 20, 1967
Before the H o n o r a b l e A l e x a n d e r H a r v e y , II, U. S.
District Judge, In Chambers, at 3 :40 p.m.
P r o c e e d i n g s
(In Chambers)
The Court: The present action arises on the motion for
farther relief filed by the plaintiffs on April the 10th, 1967.
The defendants have not as yet filed an answer to the
motion hut it will be filed shortly.
In addition, there is presently pending before the Court
plaintiffs’ response to defendants’ standards for the em
ployment, assignment and retention of teachers and also
plaintiff-intervenor’s objections to defendants’ objective
standards for state and faculty employment, both filed on
or about August 22, 1966.
Thirdly, there is pending before the Court motion to re
quire defendants to eliminate educational disparities filed
on October the 7th, 1966.
The defendants have filed no response to the pleadings
last mentioned.
At a preliminary pre-trial conference held in Baltimore,
Maryland, the following were present: Mr. E. F. Yar
borough and Mr. Wilbur M. Jolly, representing the de
fendant ; and Mr. Julius Chambers, representing the plain
tiff; and Mr. Frank E. Schwelb and Mr. Francis H. Ken
nedy, of the Department of Justice, representing the plain-
tiff-intervenor.
The following issues are presented by the pleadings
presently before the Court:
Hearing in Baltimore, Maryland
234a
I. With, reference to teachers:
1. The question whether race has been a factor in
assignments of teachers to schools in accordance with
the order passed by Chief Judge Butler on July 27,
1966.
2. The question whether the Franklin County School
Board has encouraged transfers by present members
of the faculty to schools within the system in whid
pupils are wholly or predominantly of a race other
than such teachers, also in accordance with the provi
sions of Judge Butler’s order.
3. Whether the objective standards for the employ
ment, assignment and retention of teachers and pro
fessional staff as previously filed by the school board
with the Court satisfy constitutional and other ap
propriate legal standards. A portion of Judge But
ler’s order also deals with the filing of these standards.
II. With Reference to Students:
1. The issue of intimidation, coercion, community
pressure, or the like, which might prevent students
from exercising a freedom of choice.
2. The question, whether the freedom-of-choice sys
tem in Franklin County satisfies constitutional and
other legal standards.
III. Whether the schools attended by white children
and negro children are basically unequal, in other
words, the disparity issue.
The parties have stipulated that the evidence in this
case can be taken by way of deposition. It is further under
Hearing in Baltimore, Maryland
235a
stood and agreed that the plaintiffs and the plaintiff-inter-
venor will take their depositions during the week of April
24th and that the defendants will take their depositions
during the week of May 1st. This case is scheduled for
hearing in Raleigh on May 9th and the case will remain in
the assignment for that date.
The Court is not requiring that all depositions or all
evidence he completed before the May 9th date. However,
it is expected that both parties will make a conscientious
effort to complete as much of the evidence as possible be
fore the May 9th date and will report to the Court with
reference thereto. At the hearing on May 9th, further deci
sions will be made concerning the case, including the taking
of live testimony, the taking of further depositions and
dates for final decision.
It is agreed by all parties that there is some urgency to
completing this case since plans have to be made by the
school board based on the rulings of the Court.
Each of the parties is requested to file with the Clerk of
the Court in Raleigh, by May 5, 1967, a memorandum set
ting forth the principal legal authorities relied on in this
case.
A copy of this preliminary pre-trial order shall be sent
to all counsel.
(Thereupon, at 4:05 p.m., the aforecaptioned proceedings
were concluded.)
Hearing in Baltimore, Maryland
236a
Raleigh, North Carolina
May 9, 1967
Before the H o n o r a b l e A l e x a n d e r H a r v e y , II, U. S.
District Judge, In Chambers, at 9:40 a.m.
P r o c e e d i n g s
The Court: On April 20, 1967, this Court entered a pre
liminary pretrial order following a conference in Balti
more, Maryland with counsel for the various parties. In
that order, certain dates were set for the taking of deposi
tions by the plaintiffs and plaintiff-intervenor, and by the
defendants, specifying that the plaintiffs could take their
depositions during the week of April 24, and that the de
fendants would take their depositions during the week of
May 1st; and the case was scheduled for hearing in Raleigh
on May the 9th, that being later changed to a conference
with the Court on May the 9th.
It was indicated in the previous order that the Court
was not there requiring that all depositions be completed
by the May 9th date. However, the order stated that both
parties were to make a conscientious effort to complete as
much of the evidence as possible before the May 9th date
and report to the Court with reference thereto; and that
on May the 9th, further decisions would be made concern
ing the case, including the taking of live testimony, the
taking of further depositions, and dates for final decision.
The parties met with the Court on May 9th in Raleigh
and a further discussion of these questions followed.
It is now understood and agreed that the plaintiffs ana
the plaintiff-intervenor will complete the taking of their
depositions by May 20th.
Hearing in Raleigh, North Carolina
237a
The Court further orders that the defendants will com
plete the taking of their depositions by May 31st.
Subsequent to May 31st, either party may apply to the
Court—-and that would be whatever judge is sitting in the
Eastern District of North Carolina—for a further confer
ence to arrange to set this matter down for trial on some
date in June.
It is further ordered that at the trial each side will be
permitted to call no more than 5 witnesses. The plaintiffs
and the plaintiff-intervenor are to have 5 witnesses between
them. Either side may call bona fide rebuttal witnesses.
The plaintiffs have served interrogatories on the defend
ants, filed April 6, 1967. Defendants have excepted to In
terrogatories Numbers 10, 11 and 12. The Court has con
sidered the exceptions filed by the defendants, and such
exceptions are overruled. The defendants should answer
these three interrogatories by May 31, 1967.
It is further ordered that each side must give the other
side notice of the names and addresses of witnesses to be
deposed, at least one day before the taking of the deposition
of such witness.
A copy of this further Pretrial Order shall be sent to all
counsel.
Hearing in Raleigh, North Carolina
Appendix C to Plaintiff-Intervenor’ s Proposed Findings
(Filed July 26, 1967)
(See Opposite) BSP
Apvnmjx c
Pete
1963:
January 24
September 15
1964:
Hay
June 16
June
June 23
Saner
October 10
CHROKOtCGY OF XHTXMXBATXC&
■iasil̂aLi s,saisa.
Rev. Danaton and Rev. Brodie (both Oanston, dap. p. 29
#*|roei) sent « petition, signed by
130 persons to the Franklin County
School Board regard log desegregation.
On that date a church was boobed in Dunstau, dap. ? . 6
Birmingham. On the following Monday, Dunn, dap. p. 59
after a meat tag with the school
board regarding the petition for
desegregation, a boob threat was
telephoned to Rev. Dunston's home.
Alonso Dunn, a Hegre foster child,
confirmed the story.
A cross was burned at the Courthouse Franklin Tines,
in Louiatmrs • 6 /2 /64 , SX-1
Eight Segro children seek to
transfer to white schools.
1& Times,
6/16/64, Arrington
dep. Ex. 1
St. Clarence Arrington, one of the Arrington dep.,
Hogroea who bed applied for a p. 15, 58
transfer of his children to a white
school, come to Mrs. Irene Arrington,
a plaintiff la this action, who had
also made such an application, to
ta ll her, on his white landlord's
behalf, to stay off tbs landlord's
land or suffer the consequences.
Bar. Arrington also told Mrs.
Arrington that ha had withdrawn
his application because of fear
his landlord would evict him.
Transfer requests are denied.
Discriminatory signs s t i l l main
tained In Courthouse in Louisbarg;
taken down by request of civil
rights leader.
Rally of Ku Klux Klonj 600 attended.
toafc.1.1*,
6 /23/64 , Arrington
dep. Ex. 2
Anderson dep. p. 116
———_— s
8/20/64, Cx. 3
i^ut Echols, chairmen of Christs**
Parade in Frank1laton, receives
telephone threat to put ’’niggers"
In back of parade» and his store
windows srs broken by gunshots.
■s resigned as e lu im s .
December 5 Echols, dep. p. 135-136
239a
240a
Appendix C to Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Proposed Findings
(See Opposite) H®3
I M S :
February 13
March
May
May 23
June 4
June 3
June 8-14
(approx.)
June 14
June 14
lock thrown through window of horae Massenburg dep. p. 6 , 13
of S. Massenburg, a negro, and
threatening latter was put in his
mailbox. The note threatened hie
for allegedly leading a Megro aiarch.
In the spring, school board sent Duneton, dap. p. 37
notice to parent# concerning assign*
aunts for 1965-66.
Oil was put in the well of Queenie Worths® dep., p. 38, 53
Wortham, a Megro and tacks thrown
in her driveway, after her two
daughters were the first Megroes to
secure previously all-white jobs.
Her employer later told her Ha
thought that these Incidents were due
to her sending her child to a white
school.
House of Irene Arrington, a Negro, Arrington dep., 19
shot into. She had again applied
far a transfer for her children.
List of names of Megro children Franklin Times,
requesting transfer to white 1/13/66, 6x7 10
schools broadcast over local radio
station.
Kaoea of Hegro students requesting
transfers to white schools published
in Franklin. Tinea newspaper of which
Clint Fuller, a member of the county
school board, is the editor.
Dunsten dep. p. 9;
First Latham dee.
pp. 16, 38, 56;
6 /8 /65 , Ex. 1 to
Duneton's dep.
Irene Arrington receives numerous Arrington dep. pp. 26-27
telephone calls threatening bar
life and saying "Gold Sand School
callin g ." There would be four or
five cells a night.
House of Irene Arrington, was again
shot Into, and both house end ear
were danced by gunfire. Photographs
are in evidence.
Arrington dep. p. 18
6/17/65, fix. 3 thereto
House of Sandy Jones, a ti«gro, father Arrington dep. p. 23,
of Irene Arrington, shot into. He Franklin Times,
lives next door to her. One of hie 6/17/65, Ex. 3 thereto
grandchildren had applied to attend
e desegregated school.
241a
242a
Appendix C to Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Proposed Findings
(See Opposite) HSF*
1965s (c o a t ’ d)
July
July 27
Following the publicettoo of hie seme First L• Coppedge dep.
In the paper concerning a request to p. 118
transfer his son to a white school,
Rev. Coppedge receives harass'-ng phone
calls every few hours for two weeks.
Following newspsper publication of 0mston dep. p. 10
Megro transfer applicants, Rev. Dunston
receives anonymous, silent or abusive,
phone ca lls ; these calls continue a ll
A cross was burned at Booker Driver's Driver dep.» p. 58
house; his children's application
for transfer to a white school had
been published.
Letter referring to child applying to Crudup dep., p. 89
white school, and threatening to k ill
parents, received at the Crudup
residence. The Crudup*s daughter had
applied to attend all-white Foungaville
Sigh School.
Cecil Macon, a Hegro emdoyer, received Macon dep., p. 84;
a .)hone call demand that Macon force Manley dep. , 5. 94, 98
Sidney Manley, a Negro, to withdraw
hit ward's transfer application, or
else fire him. He communicated this
to Manley who withdrew his child’ s
application.
On s day around July, o il was put in Dunston den., p. 15
Rev. Dunstools well.
Horace Ball, white, told Joseph Branch, Branch dep., pp, 143-4
Hegro, to get hia grandchild out of
the white school because the Klan
might blow up his (B all's) building.
The grandchild's application was
withdrawn.
Franklin Timas reports that a Klan
rally was held near Louisburg, with
2£0O persons reported in attendance.
The next day 80 Klanamen la Klan
regalia staged a walk in Loulaburg.
t e H U a U
7/27/65, Cx. 6
243a
244a
Appendix C to Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Proposed Findings
!
!
(See Opposite) 8 ^ *
1965: Ccoat’ d)
August
August 19
August 23
In August, Rev. Dunston led a march Dunscan den. , p. 41
la Louisburg to open voter regia- Anderson dep., p. 116
trstlaa.
Michelle Hutchinson, a Negro c iv il Anderson dep., pp. 117-118
rights worker was kicked by a white
men during the voter registration
march. Rev. Dunston end James Anderson,
a Negro active in voter registration
and other c iv il rights activity,
accompanied Miss Hutchinson to cake a
complaint. A large explosion occurred
that night at the house of James Anderson.
A cross was burned at Rev. Coppedge’ s Luther Conpedge dep., p. 120
borne. l£«aKAi,a.l.^Jt>
8/17/65? Ex- 1 thereto
A friendly white neighbor advised Luther Coppedge den., >•*. 121
Rev. Coppedgc that other neighbors
are upset about his sending his son
to Edward Best, te lls him they w ill
stop helping him financially.
Lateral transfer applications of Negro
children for white school# vera denied.
August 24
August 28
The grankUa Time# reports that a cross Franklin Times.
was burned at the Franklin times 8/24/65, Gx. 8
office in Louisburg. The Tim*^
attributes burning to the fact that
the Times also printed a Negro
newspaper.
Three white men la truck drove into Dunston dep., pp. H , 13
Rev. Dunaton’ s driveway and shouted Geddie dep., o. 59
threats to Rev. Dunston. These mem
also scattered tacks in the driveway.
Following the truck incident, Dunston Duaston dep., p. 12
receives two phone threats; one
threat referring to the Arrington
shoot lags.
September 1 Telephone calls were made to Buck Norwood dep., p. 195
Norwood, a Negro, warning him to
withdraw his grandchildren from
all-white Frank!Inton High School.
245a
246a
Appendix G to Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Proposed Findings
(See Opposite)
XAatre Source
1965} COant'd)
October
1966;
January
March
April
Spring and Simmer
A Negro woman, Annie Satrtrerwhite, who had enrolled her children in
a white school, was fired becauseher employer did not believe in
race-mixing. Mrs. Alveretta Moore,
a witness, substantiates this
conversation.
la e id ten t*
Annie Satrterwhite
dep., p. SS Alveretta Moore
Dep. S3*
Oil or kerosene is put in Buck Norwood dep.,
Norwood's well. p. 199
A bomb was exploded near Buck
Norwood's bouse. Norwood dep., p. 201
A cross was burned mid dynamite Norwood dep. p. 204
exploded at Mary Xingsfetrry's house, mother of two children at
predominantly white schools.
Later, a fire war started on her
land. She is the daughter of Mick
Norwood and lives Across the street
from him.
During the period May 1965, to July, First L. Coppedge 1966, nails were put in Rev. Coppedge* p.122 driveway about thirteen times,
causing two flat tires.
the house of Sanford Johnson, a Kearney dep., p.4
Negro, was shot into at night. He had Ex* 1 & 2 thereto no children in white schools.
She church of Rev. Plummer
Alston, a Negro minister, was dynamited. Luther Coppedge is
the uncle of Rev. Alston's wife.
rJerome Cheek, one of six Negroes, in all of the predominantly white
schools, receives two threatening racial notes at school.
Alston dap., p.20,44
., wk. * thereto
L. Coppedge dep. p.126-127
Cheek dep., p. 52
Oil was put in the well at Jerome Cheek dep., p. 54 Cheek's house.
Oil put in the well at Jerome Cheek dap., p. 55Cheek's house a second tlms.
Airing spring and summer. 1366,large First Latham dep.
nails were put in the drivemy at p. 25, 26the home of Rev, Latham, a white
minister who encouraged the schoolboard to treat Negro transfer
applicants fairly, a nd who hadspoken out against the Xian.
247a
Appendix C to Plaintiff-Intervenes Proposed Findings
(See Opposite)
Dm c » Incidents
19*6 :
April (Cant’d)
May
May 20
May 22
July 12
July 14
July 16
In spring or summer, 19««, Mr*. First Latham dep.
Latham advised Rev. Latham that a pp. 8, 9, 26
telephone caller threatened her
life for riding to work with "niggers.”
During this period harassing phone
calls were received at the Latham
residence. Rev. Latham, a white minister,
was working for improved race relations
especially In accepting Negroes to White
schools.
About May, 1966, the words %o niggers (Morgan dep., pp. 22-24
are going to this school" were written
on the street next to all-white
Youngsville High School.
On the second Saturday in May, sugar
ptft , *1 cyk-s hi r\l< o f Cef petty £$ T “f Y0.C\o V',
Re v. Dunston fs license for a foster
home was taken away shortly after
this date.
First L. Coppedge
dep. p. 125 Dunston dep. p. 13
I Charlotte Observer
J 5-20-66, Ex.2 thereto
i 'The Charlotte Observer published l that county lx alth inspector Thilbert 'i
Pearce disapproved the Dunston well.
Pearce was reported as saying "We
never expect as much from Megroes
as white people . . . the general
sanitary conditions of the home would
be more in keeping with the raising
of pigs than of children." FBI photographs sliow immaculately kept
Dunstern home.
The chairman of the Centerville Sc c w d kJoob
Baptist Church Board of Deacons told Rev#Wood, a white minister,
that due to pressures, Wood should
not have social or business dealings
with Negroes. Rev. Wood had preached
for better race relations, and his wife,
a teacher in another county, had enter
tained her white and Negro students at ...
their home. Rev. Uoppeage complains Coppedge trial
to~Justice Department about racial testimonysigns on county Health Department.
Slums later removed.
A cross, 6 feet high* was burned at First Wood dep., Rev. Wood’s house following two p. 76integrated parties for students from a school in another county Where his wife taught.
A cross was burned at the
residence of Fred Rogers,
Superintendent of Franklintcn schools. The Franklin T W «
published that tne same night, a cross was burned at the pre
dominantly white Franklinton School,
where an Integrated pre-schoolers program was held.
Rogers dep. p. 188
249a
250a
Appendix C to Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Proposed Findings
(See Opposite) B3F*
X3&6:
J U ly 1 7
J u l y 2 7
August 1-15
August
6 co* 7
August 3
August 30
September 3
September 3
Cross burned at R ev . L a th a m ’ s h o u s e . First Latham dep.
p . 25
Interim Order. Depositions in this
case taken during week of July 25.
The second .hoice period for Negro
students pursuant to the Interim
Order was held August 1-15.
Rev. Frank Wood, a white minister, Second Wood dep.,
was fired after commenting favor- p. 7, 13
ably cm the court1* desegregation
plan and after testifying in this
action.
Shots were fired into home of Mrs.
Perry, who had wo children in a
white school. This occurred during
the court ordered second choice
period, and the Franklin Times
insaediately associated the incid nt
with the desegregation suit.
The opening of Franklinton
schools was delayed after a p u b l i c
maeting in Franklinton concerning
possible further desegregation
of schools. Comments were made in
favor of retaining the freedom of choice
plan for students, and against the
proposed transfer of additional Negro
children to white schools. A petition
signed by 594 persons in opposition
to further desegregation was presented
to the Franklinton Board.
Residence of Brenda Fogg and Margaret Fogg dep., p. 7
Fogg shot into. They are Negro
students in Louisburg High, avhlte
school.
Margaret Fogg, a Negro, is called Fogg dep., p. 12
derisive names at a white school.
Willie Perry dep.,
p . 220
second Rogers dep.
Second Rogers dep.,
p. 157, 4-29-67
Franklin Time#
C T T K 7 there to
Franklin Tiroes reports that
franklinton School Board
rejects plan to transfer ad
ditional Negroes to white school}
coEanunity disapproval of the plan
voiced at stormy public meeting of
School Board. Raleigh News t
Observer editorializes that no
free choice is possible under the
unusually heavy community pressure,.
Rogers dep. Raleigh
Mews > Observe ;r, 9-10-66
3NM6I, to second
Rogers dep.
2 51 a
Appendix C to Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Proposed Findings
(See Opposite)
D ate Incidents S o u r c e
1966: (Cont'd
N o v e m b e r
N o v e m b e r 7 ■
/'
. )
M a r g a r e t Fogg was sent a racial
note at school.
Threats of damage to Frank-
linton school bus by K K K made;
F r a n k l i n t o n school officials
suspended use of the bus,
Frank l i n Times headline reads,
''FRANKLINTON BUS U S E SUSPENDED,
L I F T E D F O L L O W I N G K K K THREATS."
Fogg d e p . , p. 12
Second Rogers dep.
p. 162
Franklin Times
12/1/66, Ex thereto
253a
254a
Appendix C to Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Proposed Findinj
(See Opposite)
1967: (cont’dj
April 11
April 19
April 20
April 21
A p r i l 2 5
May 26
July 13
July
Franklin Tim.* report* that Fred Rogers
plana not to return aa Superintendent
of Franklinton schools; associates
matter with hia desegregation stand
and intensive consnunity opposition
thereto. Rogers had testified on
behalf of plaintiff once previously.
or 26 Harassing telephone calls are made
to the Coppedge residence.
Carolyn Jones, a Negro, was called
obacane and racial names in
Louisburg High.
Carolyn Jones, a Negro, received
racial and obscene notes at a white
school.
Franklin Times reports on HEW
proceedings against Franklinton;
Buck Norwood’ s testimony about
in t im Ida t ory ine id ants; inc lud ing,
dynamiting* involving his grand
children at desegregated schools.
Shots fired into home of Wiley Davis,
whose brother and neighbor, James
Davis, had two children in desegre
gated schools.
Franklin Times reports that 20 private
citiaens visited a Franklinton Board
meeting to voice opposition to transfer
additional Negroes to predominantly
white Franklinton School; only five
Negroes applied this year.
From February to the end of July,
many anonymous phone calls have been
received at Rev. Coppedge*s House.
The callers breathe heavily into
the phone..
Franklin Times
4/11/67, Ex. to
second Rogers dep,
Mr*. Coppedge dep.,
p. 35, 4/27/67
C. Jones dep., p. 58
C. Jones dep., p, 51
Franklin Times,
4/25/67, Ex. 33
Coppedge trial testimony
Coppedge trial testimony
255a
256a
Appendix C to Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Proposed Findings
(See Opposite)
N o v - e m b e r 23
December 1966
1966:
1966-67
1 9 6 7 ;
February
March
March 5 or 6
I=\aiXur-e of voXuntar-y com- Second Roger's dep.
pliance with desegregation #2, P-_Xt>R
guidelines opens e n f o r c e - Fr*anl<l:Ln Tiroes
merit p r o c e d u r e s by HEW against 12/1/66
Franlclinton Schools.
Rev. Latham, who testified on
behalf of plaintiff-Intervenor
in July, leaves Franklin
County as a result of pressures
and inability to accomplish an
effective ministry, including
better race relations, under
the circumstances
During the year, Alice Clanton,
one of two Negroes at a pre
dominantly white Edward Best
High School, was called racial
names, and racial names were written
on the classrooms. Alice later
decided to return to an all-Negro
school.
Second Latham dep.
Clanton d e p . ,
p. 76, 83
Raleigh newspapers give extensive
coverage of reprisals against Isham
High, Wake County Negro.. with
children in predominantly white
school, including cross burnings,
pollution of his well, and warnings
to him from officers to say his
prayer about having children in
desegregated school; Franklin County
Negroes knew of the case.
A. L. Morgan
dep. 11, 45-46;
Exhibits 1-5
thereto; dep.
Mattie Harris dep,
p. 16
1967 freedom of choice period begins
March 1, and enus March 30, 1967. Mrs. Coppedge
Harassing telephone calls, about dep. p. 32
100 during the course of the
1966-67 school year, begin again
at the residence of Harold
Coppedge, the first-named plaintiff
in this action
An explosion occurs at nighttime
at the Coppedge residence during
the choice period. Mrs. Bowden,
Mrs. Gardner, and Miss Ossie
Spivey, neighbors, all heard
the noise.
Mrs. Coppedge dep.
p. 30
Mr. Bowden
dep., p. 128
Mrs. Gardner
d e p . , p. 161
Ossie Spivey
d e p . , p. 81Dynamite was exploded at the
house of Leslie Joyner, a white
man who live across the street from
Buck Norwood. Norwood's grand- r. . >v .
daughter who attended a white school
in Franlclinton City, resides next door to
Joyner and is his tenant.
4 ^ 1
257a
258a
Appendix D to Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Proposed Findings
(See Opposite) B3P
F R A N K L I N COUNTY,
N o r t h C a r olina
O c c u p a t i o n Groups of E m p l o y e d P e r s o n s , 1960
Total E m p l o y e d Persons: 9,235
White: 5,868
Nonwhite: 3,6-17
Nu m b e r % of % of % of
in Total W h i t e N o n white
Group Employed Employed Employed
Farmers and F a r m M a n a g e r s
White
2,6-03
1,321 16.2 22.5
Nonwhite 1,082 11.7 - 31.7
Farm Laborers, U n p a i d F a m i l y W o r k e r s , & F a r m Fore m e n
White
. 1,219
363 3.7 5.8
Nonwhite 876 9.6 - 25.6
Private H o u s e h o l d W o r k e r s
White
378
66 . 5 .7
%
Nonwhite 336 3.6 - 9.8
Laborers, except F a r m and M i n e
White
696
150 1.6 2.6
Nonwhite 366 3.7 - 10.1
259a
260a
Appendix D to Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Proposed Findings
(See Opposite) 83?“
Operatives and K i n d r e d W o r k e r s
White
Nonwhite
Professional, T e c h n i c a l & K i n d r e d Work e r s
Whi te
Non white
Craftsmen, Foremen & K i n d r e d W o r k e r s
White
Nonwhite
Service Workers, ex c e p t P r i v a t e H o u s e h o l d
White
Nonwhite
Managers, Officials & Proprietors, excl. Farms
White v
Nonwhite
Clerical and K i n d r e d W o r k e r s
White
Nonwhite
Sales Workers
White
Nonwhite
Occupation not R e p o r t e d
White
Nu m b e r % of % of % of
in Total W hite N o n w h i t e
Group E m p loyed E m p l o y e d E m p loyed
1,593
1,303 14.1 22.2 —
290 3.1 - 8.5
533
387 4.2 6.6 __
146 1.6 - 4.3
688
572 6.2 9.7 . _
116 1.2 - 3.4
347
236 2.5 4.0 _
111 1.2 - 3.2
480
459 4.9 7.8
21 .2 - .6
586
573 6.2 9.8 —
13 .1 - .4
382
382 4.1 6.5 “ %
0 0.0 - 0.0
182
98 1.1 1.7 —
84 .9 - 2.5Nonwhite
Firm ak°ve statistics are from the U n i t e d States Census of Population: 1960,
Thi RePort PC(1)-35C, "General Social and Economic Characteristics: N o r t h Carolina,"
ie P- 35-261 and Table 88, p. 35-294.
261a
262a
(Filed August 25, 1967)
The defendants in this action having filed notice of ap
peal to the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals from the
opinion and order rendered by His Honor Algernon L,
Butler, Chief Judge of the United States District Court
for the Eastern District of North Carolina, on August 17,
1967, move the court that the execution of said order con
tained in said opinion and order be stayed pending the final
disposition of said appeal as follows:
1. That portion of said order which reads as follows:
“The defendants shall prepare and submit to the court, on
or before October 15, 1967, a plan for the assignment, at
the earliest practicable date, of all students upon the basis
of a unitary system of non-racial geographic attendance
zones, or a plan for the consolidation of grades, or schools,
or both. In drawing the new plan, the defendants shall
take into consideration the capacities of the various schools
based on uniform pupils per classroom ratios, so that, as
far as possible, assignment pursuant to such plan shall
result in no school in the system being substantially more
crowded than any other school. In the event of geographic
zoning, the zones shall be drawn in such a manner as to
avoid gerrymandering for any purpose. The defendants
shall make provision in the plan for the period of time
over which the conversion to a desegregated school system
shall be accomplished and shall set forth a schedule of
steps to be taken to effect this conversion.”
2. That portion of said order that reads as follows:
“Pending court approval of the new plan, the defendants
Motion to Stay E x ecu tio n of Opinion and Order
Dated August 17, 1967
263a
shall transfer or cause to be transferred for the 1967-68
school year a sufficient number of Negro students to pre
dominantly white schools so that at least ten percent of the
Negro students in the system will attend predominantly
white schools.”
3. That portion of said order that reads as follows:
“Defendants shall take immediate affirmative steps to ac
complish substantial faculty desegregation in the system
and in each school therein for the 1967-68 school year, not
withstanding that teacher contracts for the 1967-68 school
year may have already been signed and approved. In this
connection, the defendants shall again promptly meet in
dividually or in groups with all faculty members in the
school system and encourage the transfer of faculty mem
bers so as to desegregate the faculties in the various
schools. The defendants shall advise all present and future
faculty members that the Franklin County Board of Edu
cation operates a desegregated school system, and that all
teachers are subject to assignment to any school therein in
the best interests of the school system. If the assignment
of teachers on a voluntary basis does not result in signifi
cant faculty desegregation of every school in the system
for 1967-68, to the extent that at least two teachers of the
minority race (white or non-white) shall be on each de
segregated faculty, the defendants shall assign for the
1967-68 school year a sufficient number of white and non
white teachers to the several schools in the system so that
two or more teachers of the minority race shall be on each
school faculty. The defendants shall establish as an ulti
mate objective that each faculty contain the same approxi
mate percentage of non-white teachers as there is in the
entire system.”
Motion to Stay Execution of Opinion and Order
Dated August 17, 1967
264a
The defendants state that they have filed notice of appeal
in this action to the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals in
good faith and verily believe that serious questions con
cerning all three of the aforesaid portions of the order will
be raised on appeal, and it is of great importance to the
defendants and to all of the parties to this action that a
final opinion of the appellate court be obtained before the
three portions of the aforesaid order are enforced against
the defendants.
That if the aforesaid three portions of the aforesaid
order are enforced against the defendants prior to the
opinion of the appellate court the Franklin County School
System will be deprived of its remedy on appeal.
Motion to Stay Execution of Opinion and Order
Dated August 17, 1967
265a
(filed August 29,1967)
S t a t e m e n t
The defendants, having noticed on appeal herein, have
moved the Court to stay the principal provisions of this
Court’s order of August 17, 1967, pending review by the
Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit. We oppose the
motion.
For purposes of this motion, the portions of the order
sought to be stayed fall into two distinct categories—im
mediate relief which is to be effective for the 1967-1968
school year (faculty desegregation consisting of at least
two minority race teachers at each school and sufficient
pupil desegregation to assure the attendance of 10% of the
Negro pupils at desegregated schools) for relief to be com
pleted at a later date (filing of a plan for desegregation
under unitary system of geographic attendance zones, or
by consolidation of schools or grades, or both.)
The record in this case is voluminous, and, even if the
Court of Appeals gave the matter the most expeditious
treatment, its review would certainly take several months.
If the “immediate” portions of the order were stayed, this
would mean in effect that the faculties of the various schools
would remain almost completely racially segregated at
least until 1968-1969, and that pupil desegregation would
remain at the level of less that 1.5% for a like period. If
the portion of the order requiring submission of a geo-
graphieal attendance or similar plan were stayed, and if
the defendants were not required to institute any prepara
tion for conversion to a constitutionally acceptable system
Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Memorandum in Opposition to
Defendant’s Motion for a Stay
266a
until after full appellate disposition, there is a serious pos
sibility that even the initiation of such preparations would
be delayed so long that it would be difficult, upon affirm
ance by the Fourth Circuit, to begin the conversion in time
to make it effective even for 1968-1969. In the light of the
foregoing considerations, and in view of the mounting im
patience of the Courts with delays in the implementation of
constitutional school desegregation requirements,1 only the
strongest showing by the defendants of irreparable injury
from denial of a stay would entitle them to extend for
another year the unconstitutional practices which this
Court has described in its August 17, Opinion and Order,
In fact, the defendants can make no showing of injury at
all.
With respect to the “immediate relief” portions of the
order, Superintendent Smith testified, and the Court con
cluded, that “a greater degree of faculty desegregation can
be accomplished without serious practical, administrative
or other problems,” 1 2 3 it is hardly open to defendants now to
argue that this cannot be done. With respect to the reas
signment of Negro students to predominantly white schools,
the evidence showed, and the Court found, that the all-
Negro schools are far more crowded than the all-white and
predominantly white schools ;s in fact, Superintendent
Smith acknowledged that Negro students living near Ep
som, which is filled to 39.4% of capacity, are based thirteen
miles to all-Negro Eiverside, which is at more than 126%
1 Griffin v. County School Board, 377 U.S. 218 (1964); Watson V.
Memphis, 373 U.S. 526 (1963); Goss v. Board of Education, 373 U.S.
683 (1963).
2 Conclusion of Law No. 5.
3 See Finding of Fact 17 and footnotes 13 and 14.
Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Memorandum in Opposition to
Defendant’s Motion for a Stay
267a
of capacity. The elimination of this condition by the trans
fer of Negro stndents from overcrowded to under-utilized
schools is a significant educational and administrative bene
fit, and not an irreparable injury. Finally, with respect to
the filing of a geographical or related plan by October 15,
1967, there can be no injury to defendants at all, for, in the
event that the Court of Appeals should reverse the ‘ ‘freedom
of choice” portion of this Court’s decision, all that the de
fendants need to do is return to their prior mode of opera
tion, or to any other which the appellate court may permit.
There is certainly no irreparable injury in the requirement
that a plan be filed and that the parties be afforded the
opportunity to litigate its mechanics, so that, if this Court’s
decree is affirmed, its provisions can be implemented at the
earliest practicable date.
A r g u m e n t
Rule 62(a) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure,
while providing for an automatic 10-day stay of certain
types of orders, provides, in pertinent part, that
Unless otherwise ordered by the court, an interlocutory
or final judgment in an action for an injunction . . . .
shall not be stayed during the period after its entry
and until an appeal is taken or during the pendency
of an appeal.
Rule 62(c) provides:
When an appeal is taken from an interlocutory or final
judgment granting, dissolving, or denying an injunc
tion, the court in its discretion may suspend, modify,
restore, or grant an injunction during the pendency of
Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Memorandum in Opposition to
Defendant’s Motion for a Stay
268a
the appeal upon such terms as to bond or otherwise
as it considers proper for the security of the rights of
the adverse party.
In Taylor v. Board of Education of New Rochelle, 195
F. Supp. 231, 238 (S.D. N.Y. 1961), aff’d. 294 F. 2d 366 (2d
Cir. 1961), cert. den. 368 U.S. 940 (1962) District Judge
(now Circuit Judge) Kaufman, in denying the application
of the school board for a stay of a desegregation injunc
tion formulated the test as to whether or not a stay should
be granted, and its applicability to school desegregation,
as follows:
The determination of whether to grant a stay rests
in the Court’s discretion and requires a balancing of
the equities of the particular situation It is incumbent
upon the defendants to prove that they will be irrepa
rably injured if a stay is not granted. Cf. Eastern Air
lines, Inc. v. C. A. B., 2 Cir., 1958, 261 F. 2d 830. In
this instance, this Court is being asked to weigh the
constitutional rights of the plaintiffs against the ad
ministrative convenience of the Board of Education
and to rule in favor of the latter. Merely to state the
proposition is to reject it.
The Taylor opinion, and Meredith v. Fair, 306 F. 2d 374
(5th Cir. 1962, aff’d. 83 S. Ct. 10 (1962) both cite numerous
Supreme Court and other decisions denying stays in school
desegregation cases. Among these are Ennis v. Evans,
364 U.S. 802 (1960) (Court of Appeals reversed District
Court’s gradual desegregation order, ordered instant total
desegregation; Supreme Court denied stay); Houston ■
Indep. School Dist., v. Ross, 364 U.S. 803 (1960) (Supreme
Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Memorandum in Opposition to
Defendant’s Motion for a Stay
269a
Court denies stay after federal court rejected the Board’s
desegregation plan and entered one of its own); Danner v.
Holmes, 364 U.S. 939 (1960) (District Court stayed decision
desegregating University of Georgia; Court of Appeals
Judge vacated stay; Supreme Court affirmed); Lucy v.
Adams, 350 U.S. 1 (1955) (Supreme Court vacated District
Court’s stay of its order desegregating University of Ala
bama) ; Tureaud v. Board of Supervisors 346 U.S. 881
(1953) (Supreme Court stayed appellate court’s reversal
of desegregation order, thereby enabling plaintiff to enter
university); United States v. Louisiana, 364 U.S. 500 (1960)
(Supreme Court denied stay of three judge court order
invalidating Louisiana statutes as preservative of segrega
tion). In the Meredith case, supra, both the Supreme Court
and the Fifth Circuit vacated stays granted by a single
judge of the Fifth Circuit and caused James Meredith to
be admitted to the University of Mississippi. More re
cently, on April 17, 1967, the Supreme Court denied a stay
of the Fifth Circuit’s recent Jefferson decision.4 See Caddo
Parish School Board v. United States,------ U.S. ------ , 87
S. Ct. 1342 (1967). Several provisions of this Court’s
order in the present case have been taken in whole or in
part from the Jefferson decree.5
This decree presents no unusal or insuperable obstacles
to the defendants. Other school districts in North Carolina
have much more desegregation than is being required of
defendants—the state average for last year was 15.4% !6
4 United, States v. Jefferson County Bd. of Education, 372 F.2d 836
(5th Cir. 1966), aff’d en banc------F.2d - — (5th Cir. 1967).
5 See footnote 17 to this Court’s opinion.
As the Court said in Meredith v. Fair, supra, 306 F.2d at 376:
This is a not a Chessman case. It is not a Rosenberg case. It is
not a matter of life or death to the University of Mississippi. Texas
Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Memorandum in Opposition to
Defendant’s Motion for a Stay
270a
The rate of teacher desegregation required in this Court’s
order is the same as that prescribed by Jefferson, by the
Fourth Circuit in Bowman v. School Board of Charles City
County,------F. 2d------- (4th Cir. 1967), and by the Revised
HEW Guidelines to which North Carolina school districts
not under court order are subject. The feature of the order
eliminating so called “free choice” is based on the Bowman
decision (the Fourth Circuit’s most recent statement on
school desegregation) and on ample additional authority;’
defendants have cited no case holding that “free choice” is
permissible where intimidation prevents it from being
free in fact as well as theory. In light of the extensive evi
dence of intimidation in the record, all or most of it undis
puted, it is hardly arguable that this Court’s findings with
respect thereto are “clearly erroneous.” Accordingly, the
probability of reversal on appeal is very slight. In view of
this, and in view of the public importance of the case and
the fact that the public interest, as well as private rights
are involved, the granting of a stay would be inappropriate.7 8
C o n c l u s i o n
For the reasons stated, we respectfully request that de
fendants’ application for a stay be in all respects denied.
University, the University of Georgia, Louisiana State University, tie
University of Virgina, other Southern universities are not shriveling
up because of the admission of Negroes.
7 See conclusion of Law No. 4 and authorities cited in support thereof.
8 See United States v. Nutrition Services, Inc., 234 F. Supp. 578 (E.D-
Pa. 1964), aff’d 347 F.2d 233 (3rd Cir. 1965), to the effect that courts
are reluctant to stay the execution of orders enforcing “public interest
types of regulations. The Complaint herein is accompanied by the At
torney General’s Certificate that this is a case of general public im
portance.
Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Memorandum in Opposition to
Defendant’s Motion for a Stay
271a
Order Denying Slay
(filed Sept. 5, 1967)
The defendants having applied to this Conrt for an
Order staying the execution, pending final disposition of
their appeal to the United States Court of Appeal for the
Fourth Circuit, of the first two paragraphs of Part I and
of the first paragraph of Part II of this Court’s Order
entered herein on August 17, 1967, and said application
having come on for a hearing on August 31, 1967, and the
Court having considered the arguments of counsel for the
respective parties,
It is h e r e b y o r d e r e d that defendants’ application for a
stay of the enforcement of the aforesaid provisions of said
order he and it is hereby denied, and
It is f u r t h e r o r d e r e d that the plan to he filed by the de
fendants pursuant to the first sentence of Part I of said
Order, and the report to be filed by the defendants pursu
ant to the fourth sentence of Part IV of said Order, shall
each he filed thirty days after March 1, 1968 or 30 days
after the filing of the decision of the United States Court of
Appeals for the Fourth Circuit in this cause, whichever is
earlier, instead of on October 15, 1967.
Ordered th is 3 1 s t d a y o f A u g u s t , 1967 .
A l g e r n o n L. B u t l e r
Chief Judge
United States District Court
272a
R e v . S i d n e y G a r f i e l d D u n s t o n , a witness for plaintiffs,
being duly sworn, deposes and says:
Direct Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Please state your full name for the record, where you
live, and state your race. A. My name is Sidney Garfield
Dunston, I live at Louisburg, North Carolina; I am a
Negro.
Q. What is your occupation? A. I am a minister of the
Gospel.
Q. What education have you, Reverend Dunston? A. I
finished the 8th grade in school, have taken a course in
Theology at Shat University, completed my studies over
there in 1951.
Q. Are you active in your community, Reverend Dun-
ston? A. I think so.
Q. What are some of your activities in your community?
A. Well, I am president of the Ministerial Alliance, presi
dent of the Franklin County Christian Fellowship Club,
and I am chairman of our church Work Committee, a
branch of the NAACP.
Q. How long have you been a member of the NAACP?
A. I would say approximately 10 or more years.
Q. Have you been active during the time you have been
a member of the NAACP? A. Well, to some extent, yes.
Q. State very briefly what kind of things you have been
doing in the NAACP. A. Well, I worked awhile on the
Labor Industrial Committee trying to get jobs for people,
and I am on the Church Work Committee.
Q. Is the NAACP branch in Franklin County interested ,
in the matter of school desegregation? A. Yes, sir.
— 3 -
Deposition o f Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
273a
Q. Do you recall any steps taken in 1963 tending toward
school desegregation? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you tell me what steps were taken at that time?
A. Well, I think in 1963 was when the petition was sub
mitted to the Franklin County Board of Education for
school integration, and that was accompanied by a letter
from the desegregation committee.
Q. Who signed that letter? A. The Reverend Brawley,
I think, and myself ; two of us signed the letter.
Q. Who were the leading figures or forces in that peti
tion? If you can answer it. A. I would say the leading
force was the local branch of the NAACP.
— 5 —
Q. Did you take a leading part in the activity surround
ing that petition? A. Well, yes, I did.
Q. Did you, following the filing of that petition, have
any meetings with the school Board with respect to deseg
regation of the schools? A. That’s right.
Q. Did that result in any desegregation of the schools
in 1963? A. No, not in 1963.
Q. Now, Reverend Dunston, do you recall any incident
in the State of Alabama about the time that the desegre
gation petition was presented and these negotiations were
feeing made? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was that? A. Well, on September 15th, 1963
the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama,
was bombed.
Q. Do you recall any incident that happened in your
family or your home about that time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was that? A. On the Monday following that
incident we had a meeting with the Board of Education—
Q. Who is “we” ? A. I am referring to the Educational
— 6—
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
Committee fo the NAACP branch.
274a
Q. Proceed. A. While we were down meeting with the
Board of Education, well, when I arrived back home from
that meeting there I found that our four boys there at
our home were frightened, and they stated to us that while
we were absent the telephone rang and that one of the boys
answered it and that someone said on the phone, “There is
a bomb going off in 30 minutes.”
Q. Reverend Dunston, pause there for a moment. I want
you to state for the record whether you heard that tele
phone call personally. A. No, I didn’t hear it, I wasn’t
present.
Q. Now, did you have any foster children staying at your
home? A. Yes, we had four boys there, foster children.
Q. How long have you been caring for those foster chil
dren? A. Our home was licensed, if my memory serves
me correctly, in 1960.
Q. Is that an approximate date ? A. That’s right, it is.
Q. I now direct your attention to the spring of the year
1965, Reverend Dunston, and ask you whether prior to the
—7—
spring of the year of 1965 you had any desegregation of
the Franklin County schools? A. Did we have any deseg
regation of the Franklin County schools prior to the spring
of 1965?
Q. Yes. A. No.
Q. Do you recall whether or not freedom of choice appli
cations were distributed by the Franklin County School
Board during the spring if 1965? A. Yes, they were.
Q. How many grades were desegregated with respect to
that? A. I ’m not sure.
Q. Did it apply to all grades, were all grades to be de
segregated? A. No; I believe it applied to the first, sec-
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
275a
ond, third, and fourth grades, if my memory serves me
correctly.
Q. Do you recall whether there was a provision made for
other grades to be desegregated through transferring? A.
It was suggested that there would be provision made for
lateral transfers.
Q. Now, you said you had foster children in your home;
who were those foster children that you had in your home?
A. Alonzo Dunn, Jr., Louis, Jerry, and Quther Geddie,
three brothers.
—8—
Q. Now, Reverend Dunston, do you recall whether you
or your wife made any application for any of these chil
dren to attend a formerly all white school? A. Yes, sir,
Alonzo Dunn and Quther Geddie, two of them.
Q. Do you remember what grades they were going into?
A. No, sir, I don’t.
Q. Do you know whether they were former desegregated
grades or not? A. No, I don’t remember.
Q. With respect to Quther Geddie were you notified by
the School Board as to any criteria he would have to meet
in order to be allowed to transfer at that time? A. No.
Q. For what reason, Reverend Dunston, did you choose
the Louisburg school instead of Riverside for this child?
A. For convenience; it was nearer, and it was a better
school, we felt.
Q. Were there any particular facilities you have refer
ence to? A. Well, the class rooms were better at Louis
burg, a better auditorium, and better playgrounds, felt that
it was all more adequate at Louisburg than at Riverside.
Q. Do you recall whether or not the names of persons
who had applied to send children, Negroes who had applied
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
—9~
to send their children to schools formerly restricted to
white students, were published in the newpaper? A. Yes,
they were.
Q. Do you recall whether their names were read over the
radio ? A. I don’t know about the radio; I didn’t hear the
names on the radio, but I read them in the paper.
Mr. Schwelb: I wish the record to show that prior
to the taking of these depositions Mr. Yarborough,
counsel for the defendant, stipulated with me in
formally that clippings from newspapers could be
introduced in evidence without further identification
and that they would be treated for the purposes of
this trial as being what they purported to be.
Mr. Yarborough: We did not agree that they
would be accepted in evidence wit]} respect to rele
vancy or authenticity, just agreed that they might
be introduced for what they are.
Mr. Schwelb: I wish to introduce in evidence as
Government Exhibit 1 in this deposition a newspaper
clipping from the Franklin Times, Louisburg, N. C.,
date of June 8, 1965, the clipping showing the names
of the applicants for transfers, and the names of the
students.
— 10-
Mr. Chambers: Mr. Yarborough, there was a stip
ulation entered into at the last pretrial conference
with respect to clippings from newspapers, and so
on, is this stipulation any different from that one?
Mr. Yarborough: I don’t think so. What was pub
lished in the newspaper we have no objection to. We
do not agree as to their relevancy, however.
277a
Q. Reverend Dunston, were the two children for whom
you applied for transfer accepted into the Louisburg
school, or were they rejected? A. They were rejected.
Q. Now following the publication of the names in the
newspaper do you recall any consequences with which you
are familiar which might have been unfortunate?. A. Yes.
Q. What were they? A. We began receiving anonymous
telephone calls. The telephone would ring and we would
answer and there would be no reply. I remember that one
night the telephone rang just about all night, rang until
3:00 o’clock in the morning. I had to take the receiver off
the hook. And then, also, following this incident, later in
the year, of course, on the 28th of August, if my memory
serves me correctly as to the date, it was reported to me
— 11—
that a truck driven by three white men, there were three
white men on the truck it was reported to me, but I didn’t
see it, and it was reported to me that this truck had four
flags on it, two United States flags and two Confederate
flags. The little foster boys had been playing out there and
they said one of the men shouted at them and said, “ Tell
him we are going to get him, tell him that we are tired of
this school issue, tell him he won’t make it until tomorrow'.”
Q. You have already testified, I believe, that you didn’t
personally see this truck? A. That’s right. No, I didn’t
see it at that time.
Q. Now, for a moment reverting to the telephone calls,
did you off and on get telephone calls for awhile? A. We
received them every day, and sometimes they would run
into the night.
Q. How often in the day, and what were the heaviest
times? A. Well, as I recall—I am ont most of the time—
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
278a
but as I recall, we received at least one or two, or three,
at different times of the day, as I remember it.
Q. Did you personally answer any of the calls? A.
Sometimes I did, yes.
Q. Were they also like the ones that you have described?
A. With the exception of one. Following this truck inci-
— 12-
dent the telephone rang one night and I answered it my
self and someone said, “Who is this?” and I said, “Rev
erend Dunston” , and he said, “Reverend Dunston, ain’t you
dead yet?” Says, “Man, you mean to tell me you ain’t dead
yet?” And that’s what I recall their saying to me.
Q. Now, Reverend Dunston, do you know a lady by the
name of Mrs. Irene Arrington? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall any reference being made to Mrs. Ar
rington in any of the telephone calls? A. Yes, sir, her
name was in it on two occasions. And following the last
shooting at her house our telephone rang one night and
my wife answered it and I heard my wife say “What about
her?” And then she turned and said to me, “Someone
asked me had I heard about Mrs. Arrington” , and when
she asked What about her the person on the phone said,
“Well, I want to tell you, you all better watch out.”
Q. Reverting now to the truck incident, you didn’t actu
ally see them shout to the children, but did you get to see
the truck? A. Yes, sir. I was in my study and I heard
the little boy when he ran in and said to Ms foster mother
Dunston, said, “A truck just came into our driveway; it had
—13-
four flags on it, two United States flags, and two Confed
erate flags,” said, “there were three white men on the
truck and one of them shouted to us and said ‘Tell him
we’re going to get him, tell him we’re going to get hi®
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
279a
tonight, tell him he won’t make it until tomorrow.” And
there was a neighbor that lives just a few doors from us,
a widow, and she said that the truck backed out of the
driveway and drove down in front of her house and some
one shouted “Be sure to tell him we’re going to get him
tonight.” And in the meanwhile there were nails found in
our driveway after the truck left.
Q. Did you call the Sheriff’s office? A. Yes, I did. I
called the Sheriff’s office and no one answered, and I called
the Police Department and the Police Department said
they would send someone out there in a few minutes, and
it wasn’t long before the High Sheriff and two deputies
were out there. I also called the FBI.
Q. Did you recognize one of the men in the truck ulti
mately? A. No, I didn’t.
Q. Did you bring any charges against anybody? A. No.
—14—
Q. Why not? A. Well, the Sheriff told me, and the gen
tlemen that came with him, as well, and the SBI men and
the FBI men from Henderson said that in the light of the
fact that he didn’t call my name that I couldn’t make out
a good case, that we couldn’t get a good case against him.
Q. As far as you know, has anybody been arrested for
making anonymous telephone calls to you? A. No, sir.
Q. Or anyone who threatened you? A. Not to my knowl
edge.
Q. Now, did you have any difficulty with the water sup-
ply at your home? A. At my home we have a well and
we have running water in the house.
Q. Did anything happen with respect to your well during
this period following your application for those children to
go to a formerly all white school, those foster children?
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
280a
A. Well, with your permission, I’ll go back to the time of
the licensing of the foster home.
Q. I was not referring to the problem of the licensing of
the foster home but was referring to the incident involv
ing kerosene or some substance being put in your well. A.
- 1 5 -
All right. Sometime during the year, and I don’t remem
ber just what date it was, oil had gotten into the well, kero
sene oil.
Q. Do you know who put kerosene into your well, if any
body did? A. No, I don’t know how it got in there.
Q. How could you tell there was kerosene oil in it! A.
Well, it had the odor of oil and the taste of oil, and I called
the Sheriff out there and he took a sample of it.
Q. Did you manage to clean the well out? A. No, we
didn’t, because the well had a concrete from around it, a
concrete top, and the odor and the taste finally died away,
faded away.
Q. Will you state when that oil got in your well whether
it was an accident or whether it was done deliberately, in
your opinion?
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
Mr. Schwelb: I ’ll rephrase the question.
Q. What is your judgment as to how the oil go in your
well?
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
The question withdrawn.
Q. Reverend Dunston, do you know of anybody else who
—16—
found oil in his well? A. I heard of a man who lives near
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
281a
Youngsville by the name of Wortham, and I don’t know
his given name, and that is what caused me to become sus
picious about my well. When I detected oil in my well I
probably got suspicious that it might be oil like the oil in
that man’s well, and I became suspicious and reported it
to the Sheriff.
Q. Do you know James Keith? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know anything about his well? A. Oil was
put in his well later, sometime later this year.
Q. Now, Eeverend Dunston, how did you keep your home,
was it clean or dirty? A. Well, I would think it was kept
fairly clean.
Q. Prior to the time of the desegregation of schools,
which began in 1965, did any officials of Franklin County,
or anybody else in authority, ever criticize your home, to
your knowledge, on the ground that it was not kept prop
erly? A. No, not to my knowledge.
Q. At the time when the foster home was licensed who
inspected the well? A. Well, at the time the foster home
was licensed we had an open well with a frame wooden
—17—
structure around it and we went on for several months
under those conditions and finally the sanitary man, Mr.
Pearce, came over there and said we would have to close
the well, and he didn’t suggest what kind of closing he
meant, so I just made a wooden top for it and put it over
the well.
Q. Did the sanitary man say anything to you with re
spect to whether or not the well was so constructed as to
pass his inspection? A. Later he did.
Q. Did he make any objection at that time to the way
the well was constructed? A. Not at that time.
Q- Did the well remain in that condition? A. No, sir.
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
282a
Q. Tell us about what happened in connection with it.
A. Later he called or came over there—I’m away from
home so much and a lot of these transactions were made
with my wife—my wife said that Mr. Pearce came there
and suggested that we would have to eliminate that wooden
structure altogether and put in a concrete structure with
a concrete top on it, and this we did.
—18-
Q. Mr. Pearce so instructed you? A. That’s right.
Mr. Schwelb: At this time I offer in evidence as
Government Exhibit 2 in this deposition a clipping
from the Charlotte Observer of May 20, 1966.
Q. Do you remember reading any newspaper in which
there was the quoting of a letter which Mr. Pearce wrote
and which had anything* to do with your home? A. Yes,
I did read that.
Q. Please read from this newspaper clipping just intro
duced in evidence this portion of the article which I am
indicating to you, reading it down through the word “chil
dren.” A. It reads, “In addition to the well,” he wrote,
“ I would like to mention the general sanitary conditions of
the home would be more in keeping with the raising of pigs
than children.”
Q. Now, Reverend Dunston, are the Geddie children still
in your home? A. They are there this week because we
are conveying them to court, but they are not living there
now.
Q. They are not living with you anymore? A. Our li
cense of a foster home for them has been taken away.
Q. Your license has been taken away? A. Yes, it has.
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
— 19—
Q. Is there any one of those foster children at your home
now! A. Yes, one.
Q. Even though the license has been taken away! A.
Yes.
Q. Which one is that? A. Alonzo Dunn. He has been
there 7 years.
Q. Now, with respect to the telephone calls you received,
do you believe that you would have received them had it
not been for your trying to integrate the white schools and
your interracial activity?
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
A. (No answer).
Q. Prior to your getting into Civil Rights activities did
you receive any threats of any kind? A. No, sir.
Q. With the exception of the alleged threats at the time
of the Birmingham bombing do you recall having received
any threats between that time and 1965? A. No, I didn’t.
Q. To what did you attribute the telephone calls?
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, as to the form.
A. (No answer).
Q. Do you believe that the various incidents which you
have related were incident to your desegregation activity?
— 20-
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
A. (No answer).
Q. Tell me what you think the reasons were why you got
these telephone calls and experienced these other incidents.
284a
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
Mr. Schwelb: Go ahead and answer the question.
A. Because of my activities in the Civil Bights movement,
including my request for reassignment of the children.
Direct Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. You say, Reverend Dunston, that you were active in
desegregation of the schools back in 1963? A. Yes, we
presented a petition to the Board of Education.
Q. That is, the NAACP did that? A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall the requests made in the petition that
was presented to the Board at that time? A. I don’t recall
it word by word.
Q. Please state the substance of what was requested in
the petition. A. Well, in keeping with the Supreme Court
decision of 1954, as citizens of the County we felt that the
— 21-
Board of Education had in mind the complying with the
law of the Supreme Court and we were suggesting that.
We had several parents to sign the petition.
Q. Did the Board of Education take any steps, as a re
sult of that petition, to desegregate the schools? A. Not
at that time.
Q. Did you receive a reply from the Board of Education?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall what you were advised by the Board at
that time?
Mr. Yarborough: We already have the Minutes of
the Board, so there would be no need for him to
answer that.
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
A. (No answer).
285a
Q. Did the NAACP have an Education Committee in
1963 in respect to the desegregation of the schools! A. In
1963, yes. In 1963 on August 19th, I think it was, the Com
mittee wrote the Health, Education and Welfare Depart
ment in Washington.
Q. Was that in 1963 or was it in 1965! A. I bqg your
pardon, it was in 1965.
Q. Did you and the committee attempt in any way to
encourage Negro parents at that time to transfer their
children to other schools! A. Yes.
— 22—
Q. Were you successful in getting Negroes to request
transfers for their children in 1963! A. I think we had
a few that requested assignment, hut I ’m not definitely
sure of that, hut I do think that we did have a few who
requested the reassignment of their children.
Q. Do you recall whether or not there were any requests
in 1963 for transfer of their children, by Negroes, to white
schools! A. In 1963, I don’t definitely recall.
Q. To your knowledge you had no Negroes attending pre
dominantly white schools prior to 1965! A. That’s right.
Q. Did you have a chance in 1965 to work with Negro
parents that had children they were seeking to get trans
ferred into predominantly white schools! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you go about extensively in the community get
ting parents to request transfer of their children! A. No,
I didn’t because I didn’t have time to do that.
Q. Were you working on a committee in doing that! A.
That’s right.
Q. Did you get a chance to meet several Negro parents!
A. A few, not too many.
—23—
Q. From your experience in working with Negro parents
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
286a
in the community regarding transfer of their children to
predominantly white schools what is your opinion regard
ing their desire to exercise free choice of schools in Frank
lin County?
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
A. (No answer).
Q. Do you believe the Negro parents of children in
Franklin County, or is it your opinion that the parents of
Negro children in Franklin County can or can not exercise
their free choice without fear of intimidation or threat?
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
A. I doubt very seriously if they will exercise it.
Q. Just what is your opinion in that respect? A. Be
cause of former intimidation and harassment they have
heaped upon us I doubt if they will.
Q. Are you speaking of some of the harassment that you
received at your home? A. That’s right.
Q. And any others? A. That others have received too,
such as cross-burnings and threats of different kinds.
Q. Now, in the operation of your foster home was there
other than you one principally in charge of the operation
of that foster home ? A. Mrs. Dunston, yes.
—24-
Cross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Reverend Dunston, you say that in 1963 you and the
Reverend Mr. Brawley mailed a letter, or was it a petition
that you mailed to the Board of Education? A. There was
a petition accompanied by a letter.
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
287a
Q. What time in 1963 was that? A. If my memory serves
me correctly, it was around January 24th 1963.
Q. Mr. Smith was not Superintendent then, was he? A .
I don’t remember who was Superintendent, don’t remember
when Mr. Smith became Superintendent.
Q. Yon met with the Board of Education following the
reply to the petition which was filed with the Board? A .
Yes, following the reply we received from the Board then
we met with the Board.
Q. Was it the following month or a month or two, or
about how long was it before you met with the Board? A .
I think it was in February that we received the reply from
the Board, and between February and May I think we had
a meeting with the Board.
Q. You don’t recall whether or not Mr. Smith was then
Superintendent? A. I believe he was, but I don’t know.
—25—
Q. I want to refresh your recollection, and ask you if he
didn’t assume office on July 1st 1963, ask you if the other
man didn’t die in February or March, or maybe in Janu
ary? A. I said I didn’t remember.
Q. Then I became attorney for the Board in 1963 and I
had nothing to do with that matter in January, February
or March, of 1963, did I?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
A. (No answer).
Q. Befreshing your recollection I ask you if I was attor
ney to the Board when you met with them then? A. Mr.
Yarborough, the first time I remember meeting with the
Board—I beg your pardon, but I have two Boards mixed
up. I had been before the Board of Commissioners during
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
288a
that time, went before the Board of Commissioners and
the Board of Education, and I just don’t recall who was
attorney for the Board of Education when I first went
before the Board.
Q. Then later on in 1963 about the time the schools
opened in late August or early September of 1963 there
was a boycott at the Riverside School was there not? A.
That’s right.
Q. You took part in that march or boycott, did you not!
- 2 6 -
A. That’s right.
Q. Along with many others? A. That’s right.
Q. And a committee from that boycott group met with
the Board of Education and you were present at that meet
ing? A. Yes, sir, I was present at some of the meetings
but not at all of the meetings.
Q. And in regard to that boycott along about the first
of September 1963 and the meeting of the committee from
that group with the Board of Education you had with you
Mr. Charles McClain who was Field Secretary of the North
Carolina NAACP, didn’t you? A. That’s right.
Q. And that committee met with the Board a number of
times and you were present? A. Yes, most of the time.
Q. And the demands or requests of that committee from
that group were all resolved through negotiations, to the
satisfaction of Mr. McClain and the committee, it was all
resolved to the general satisfaction of all of you at that
time, isn’t that correct?
Objection, by Mr. Schwelb.
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
A. Most of them were.
289a
Q. Which ones were not resolved? A. Well, at that time
—27—
we were asking for a change of Administrator, a change of
Principal at the Riverside School, and we were asking for
more adequate class rooms, and things to do with the buses
were included at that time, and all of those requirements
were not met.
Q. Do you know which ones were met? I am not trying
to confuse you. A. Well, we asked for a cafeteria and
that requirement was met.
Q. They built you a brand new cafeteria? A. Yes, brand
new.
Q. And there was a question brought up about the con
tinuation of the employment of a teacher who was said to
have a bad moral background? A. That’s right.
Q. That was resolved, wasn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Mr. McClain met with the Board several times
and I ask you if pursuant to those meetings the boycott
was not called off? A. Yes, the boycott was called off.
Q. The boycott was called off pursuant to agreement?
A. That’s right, with promises that other requests would
— 28—
be met, something done about them.
Q. I ask you if there haven’t been improvements made
at the Riverside School in recent years?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
A. I wouldn’t say there have been too many.
Q. But there have been improvements made at Riverside
so that Riverside compares generally with the Louisburg
school, compares favorably? A. I would like to see River
side up to Louisburg.
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
290a
Q. The Louisburg school up until a few years ago was
not a new building but was built brand new from funds
pursuant to a bond issue voted by the people of Louisburg
Township, isn’t that true? A. I know it was built brand
new.
Q. Don’t you know that it was built pursuant to a vote
of the people there, and that there was a lawsuit growing
out of that election? A. That I don’t remember.
Q. You are paying a special school tax on your property,
aren’t you? A. I ’m paying a special school tax, yes, sir.
Q. There in Louisburg Township? A. That’s right.
Q. You are now paying a special school tax to keep up
the Louisburg school, are you? A. That I don’t know.
Q. You say you are paying it? A. I don’t know.
-2 9 -
Objection, by Mr. Schwelb, To the form.
Q. Aren’t you paying a special school tax there to pay
for the Louisburg school? A. I don’t know.
Q. You are a leader of your race in the community and
you don’t know Avhat the tax was levied for?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers, To the form.
Q. When you all had the boycott in 1963 the Louisburg
school had been built then? A. I don’t remember when it
was built.
Q. You know when the Louisburg school was built, don’t
you? A. I don’t remember the year it was built.
Q. In 1963 when you engaged in the boycott at Riverside
school you don’t know whether the Louisburg school was
sitting down by the old standpipe or on the present loca
tion then?
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
291a
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
A. I don’t remember.
Q. You do not? A. No.
Q. Well, your boycott, the one you engaged in in 1963,
was not directed at any transfer of any pupils from River
side to the Louisburg school, was it? A. School integra
tion was included.
Q. You saw the demands in writing presented by your
committee to the Board of Education at the time of the
school boycott? A. I ’m sure I did but I don’t remember
about it.
—30—
Q. The transfer of pupils from Riverside to Louisburg
was not included in those demands, was it? A. I don’t
remember whether they were or not.
Q. Who else was on that committee from the Louisburg
community at the time of the school boycott other than you,
do you recall? A. Yes, sir, I think I recall some of them.
Q. Who were they? A. The Reverend Mr. Brawley was
on the committee, and Willie Neal was on the committee,
and Otis Gill; I don’t recall all of them.
Q. I ask you, Reverend Dunston, if it is not true that
every time you or the committee of which you were a mem
ber sought an interview with the Board of Education or
any of the officials, ask you if that interview was not
granted? A. That’s right.
Q. Such interviews were granted every single time ? A.
That’s right, whenever we sought one.
Q. Every time you sought one it was granted? A. That’s
right.
Q- In order to comply with those demands or requests
pursuant to the boycott I ask you if a representative of the
292a
Board of Education didn’t even go to your house where
you had your committee assembled? A. I didn’t quite get
- 3 1 -
your question.
Q. I ’ll put it this way: I ask you if I didn’t go there as
representing the Board of Education, went to your house!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You telephoned and had some of your people to come
there? A. That’s right.
Q. And that was relative to the matter of whether there
should be a continuation of employment of that teacher
with whose moral background there was dissatisfaction!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At that time I went to your house and we sat in your
study or living room and I talked with you? A. Yes, we
did.
Q. Talked with you on cordial terms? A. Yes.
Q. And pursuant to a recommendation of your commit
tee, of which you were a member, that teacher’s contract
was not renewed? A. That’s correct.
Q . And she is no longer in the county school system? A.
That’s right.
Q. Now, in the early part of your testimony you referred
to the bombing of a church in Birmingham; were you down
—32-
there? A. No, I was not, and I am glad I wasn’t there.
Q. You didn’t state whether or not you were there and
I just wanted to know. A. No, sir, I was not there.
Q. You say you received that telephone call right about
then; what was the approximate date of that call? A . As
I recall it, Mr. Yarborough, that was on September 16th,
and it was on September 15th when the church was bombed.
Q. What year? A. 1963, the same year that President
Kennedy was assassinated.
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
293a
Q. Do you have any idea who made that call! A. No,
sir. I don’t.
Q. Did yon report that call to any law enforcement offi
cer! A. My oldest son did. My oldest son was driving the
automobile at the time and the little hoys ran out of the
house and reported to him that I had received this call and
he called the Sheriff’s Department, and one of them came
out there and checked and didn’t find anything.
Q. No bomb exploded! A. No bomb exploded.
Q. Now, I believe that it was on the 28th of August that
you said that you received a message through the boys that
stayed at your house relative to someone shouting “Tell
him we’re going to get him” , do you know what year that
—33—
was! A. That was 1965. August 28th, 1965.
Q. Nobody did get “him” ! A. No, sir.
Q. And the Sheriff investigated it! A. That’s right.
Q. and the SBI investigated it! A. That’s right.
Q. And the FB I! A. That’s right.
Q. All of the higher law enforcement agencies investi
gated the matter! A. That’s right.
Q. Now, as to those children that were staying at your
home, you were operating what is known as a licensed
boarding home, weren’t you! A. A foster home for chil
dren.
Q. Under the auspices of the welfare department! A.
That’s right.
Q. And the Welfare Department paid you or your wife
for operating that foster home, for keeping those children!
A. That’s right; and my wife has all of that information.
Q. And she did draw money from the Welfare Depart
ment! A. That’s correct.
Q. And as long as they stayed there you were paid or
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
294a
she was paid at a contracted rate of payment? A. She
- 34-
can explain that to you. I didn’t have anything to do with
that.
Q. She got money, the money that she was entitled to
receive, as long as they were there, didn’t she, as far as
yon know? A. She can explain all of that to you, Mr.
Yarborough.
Q. Did you ever hear her say that she was owed any
thing for it that she had not received? A. I had rather not
quote her, since I am not sure about any of that. She can
explain all of that to you.
Q. I am just asking you if you ever heard her say that
they had not complied with their part of the contract, if
you ever heard her say they owed her any money that had
not been paid her? A. I don’t think they owed her any
money. I haven’t heard her say that they do.
Q. Do you know how much she got per child for keeping
them? A. Well, definitely per child I don’t know.
Q. Do you know how much she got per month for keep
ing the four children there? A. Well, to be exact, I don’t
know. She has all of those records and can tell you.
Q. It was a matter of contract between the operator of
the foster home and the Welfare Department? A. That’s
—35-
right as far as I know.
Q. You remodeled or added to your home when your wife
was in that line of work, and did that to accommodate those
children? A. That’s right.
Q. Those children were from Johnston County, weren’t
they? A. Three of them were from Johnston County hut
the fourth one was from Franklin County. Alonzo Dunn.
Q. And he is still with you? A. That’s right.
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
295a
Q. And the other children have been returned to John
ston County? A. That’s right.
Q. Is the Welfare Department still paying you on ac
count of the Dunn child? A. No.
Q. You do not have a boarding home, a foster home li
cense now, do you? A. No, we do not.
Q. Who issues such a license? A. I think they are is
sued by the State through the Welfare Department, I think
that is correct.
Q. The Board of Education of Franklin County has
nothing in the world to do with the licensing of such a
home, does it? A. Not to my knowledge.
—36—
Q. And you never felt that the Franklin Board of Edu
cation had anything to do with the licensing of such a
home for you? A. No, sir.
Q. You live, I believe, on highways 401 and 39? A.
That’s right.
Q. You live close to the Louisburg Oakwood Cemetery,
the cemetery operated by the City? A. That’s right.
Q. Now, you say that your well now has a concrete slab
across the top of it? A. That’s right.
Q. And it has a pump in it? A. A pump, but it is not
in operation now.
Q. It is with an electrically driven pump that you get
water from your well into your house? A. That’s right.
Q. That is a dug well, a well with a rock casing ?A. I
think so.
Q. You could look down in its when it had an open top
and see it? A. That’s right.
Q. You haven’t changed the lining or casing of the well,
the wall of the well, have you? A. No, sir.
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
296a
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
- 3 7 -
Q. And that well has a rock wall? A. I think so. There
wasn’t anything suggested about changing the casing until
the 13th of October of last year.
Q. But the answer to my question is that the inside of
the wall casing of that well is stone? A. That’s right.
Q. Stone or cement block or terra cotta? A. It is terra
cotta part of the way but not all the way.
Q. How long have you had that cement at the top of
your well? A. I would say maybe five or six years.
Q. Prior to that time it had a wooden curbing? A.
That’s right, it was an open well with wooden curbing.
Q. You would let the bucket down with chain and boom?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, in the spring of 1965 the Franklin County Board
of Education pursuant to the Civil Rights Act of 1964
adopted a plan of desegregation and sent notices to parents
and legal guardians of children relative to the assignment
of children in the county school system for the year 1965-66,
did they not?
Mr. Schwelb: We will stipulate that the notices
were sent.
Mr. Yarborough: All right.
Q. Those four children were in your home at that time,
having been placed there by the Welfare Department?
A. That’s right.
—38-
Q. They were not your children, were they? A. No, sir.
Q. And you had not adopted them at that time, they
had not been placed in your custody by any court order,
as far as you know, at that time? A. Well, that’s what
297a
I don’t know. I heard something about that they had
been run through the court. As I said, my wife has all of
that information.
Q. But at that time you had not asked any court to place
them with you? A. No, I hadn’t.
Q. And your wife had not asked any court to place them
with you, as far as you know? A. As far as I know,
she had not.
Q. From what "Welfare Department were they assigned
to be put there with you? A. The Franklin County Wel
fare Department.
Q. And you signed an application for those children to
be transferred from what school to what school? A. One
from Cedar Street to Louisburg High School, and one
from Riverside to Louisburg High School.
Q. Two of them? A. That’s right.
Q. You applied for how many? A. We applied for two.
— 39—
Q. Those two applications were made in what capacity?
A. What do you mean by that?
Q. You placed them there as guardian or as a parent?
A. As guardian.
Q. Had you at that time been appointed guardian of
those children by any court that you know of? A. Had I
been appointed guardian?
Q. Yes. A. No, sir, but as foster parents. As a foster
parent I think I had the right to seek the best for them
just as I would for my own children.
Q. That is your opinion, you thought you had that right?
A. That’s right.
Q- Did the Welfare Department people tell you that
you had a right to file an application for the transfer of
them, signing as guardian? A. No; I didn’t ask them.
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
298a
Q. Do you remember what grades they were assigned
to? A. No, I don’t remember that. I know that there
was a place on the form provided for guardians and I was
under the impression that foster parents were considered
guardians for the children.
Q. That was your impression? A. Yes, sir.
— 40—
Q. How did you obtain that impression?
Mr. Chambers: I object and direct the witness
not to answer the question. The question is not in
the required form and he is not required to answer
it.
Mr. Yarborough: I withdraw the question.
Q. And you signed as guardian? A. I think I did.
Q. As guardian? A. That’s right.
Q. Now, wrhose name appeared on the checks that came
from the Welfare Department covering those children?
A. My wife’s name.
Q. In whose name was the foster home licensed to re
ceive those children? A. It was in both of our names,
Q. You are quite sure of that? A. I am. On the license
it said “The home of Reverend and Mrs. S. G. Dunston”,
Q. Who dealt with the Welfare Department regarding
the placement of those children in your home, you or yonr
wife? A. My wife did that.
Q. Now, in August of 1965 you began some other Civil
Rights activities which were not related to schools, isn’t
that correct? A. That’s right.
— 41-
Q. And you led a march or marched in a march around
the courthouse square in Louisburg? A. That’s right.
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
299a
Q. And the objective of that march was to have the
registration books opened immediately, wasn’t it? A.
That’s right; to have them opened for the purpose of
getting more people registered.
Q. You knew that the election on a bond issue was
scheduled for the first part of November of 1965, and
you knew that the books would have opened within 30 or
40 days, didn’t you, and they did open within 30 or 40
days after that? A. I knew they opened sometime, knew
that they opened sometime between then and the time
of election.
Q. Sometime between then and the time of the election?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You know that the books usually open a month or
5 or 6 week prior to an election, did you know that? A.
I don’t remember what time exactly.
Q. But some several weeks before the election? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. So at the time you were leading that march or were
in that march to have the registration books opened you
knew they would open by law anyway within 30 or 40 days
—42—
or 50 days, didn’t you?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers, to the form.
Q. You knew they would open anyhow sometime prior
to the November 1st election, didn’t you? A. I knew they
would open before the election.
Q. And they did open before the election? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The books opened for registration prior to that No
vember election? A. That’s right, I ’m sure they did.
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
300a
Q. In the course of time the books were opened for
people to register? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do yon know how many registered for that election?
A. I don’t remember exactly how many.
Q. Your objective at that time was to make the officials
open the books for registration a month or two earlier?
A. Not to make them do it, but to ask them to.
Q. You asked whom? A. The Chairman of the Board
of Elections; we sent a committee to the Chairman of the
Board of Elections and asked that the books be opened.
We had learned that the hooks were open in other counties
and we thought we were asking properly.
- 4 3 -
Q. And he told you— A. —I didn’t go to him myself,
Mr. Yarborough.
Q. Anyway you learned that in Franklin County the
Board of Elections operated under a provision of law
which provided that the books be opened some 4 or 5 or 6
weeks prior to each election? A. I just learned that they
wouldn’t be opened then or couldn’t be opened at that time.
Q. You learned that the books couldn’t be opened until
the regular time? A. That’s right.
Q. And so far as you know ever since you have been
voting the books have always opened at the regular time
prior to every election for registration of voters? A.
That’s right.
Q. So, in August of 1965 along when some of these
instances were taking place that you are talking about,
you were engaged in some activities other than school
desegregation activity? A. That’s right.
Q. At that time you were also engaged in school deseg
regation activity? A. That’s right.
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
301a
Q. You were a member of the Educational Committee
of the NAACP? A. That’s right.
—44—
Q. And you put your signature on a letter that went to
Washington first complaining about the Franklin County
Board of Education sometime in the summer of 1965?
A. Yes, August 19th, 1965.
Q. And you met with some members of the Board of
Education along about August 27th or 29th? A. On Au
gust 27 th.
Q. And that was a cordial meeting, everybody was
cordial and pleasant to one another at that meeting, were
they not? A. I think so.
Q. And were the Reverend Brawley and the Reverend
Mangrum present? A. Yes, that’s right.
Q. And the application you made in behalf of these two
children that the Welfare Department had placed in your
boarding home, which you say was operated by your wife,
was denied?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
Q. Was denied by the Franklin County Board of Educa
tion and notice sent to you?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
—45—
Mr. Yarborough: I will rephrase the question.
Q. You have testified that you sent in to the Franklin
County Board of Education in behalf of these two children
residing in your boarding home an application requesting
that they be transferred to the Louisburg School for the
1965-66 school year? A. That’s correct.
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
302a
Q. And you received a notice from the Board of Edu
cation, addressed to you, denying that application? A.
That’s right.
Q. Denying that application for reassignment from that
school to which they had been previously going? A. That’s
right.
Q. And in denying it the Board stated that they did not
fit into the grades or were not in the grades specified under
the freedom of choice plan then in effect, is that right?
A. I don’t think, Mr. Yarborough, that they were in the
grades, but the letter stated, as I recall, that they didn’t
meet the criteria.
Q. What grades were they going to be in that year?
A. Pardon me, I meant to say the lateral transfer plan.
Q. They were not in a grade provided for under freedom
of choice? A. That’s correct.
—46-
Q. They were in some other grade or grades for which
were not afforded lateral transfer application? A. Yes,
sir, that’s right.
Q. Freedom of choice was open only for four grades
for the 1965-66 school year? A. That’s right.
Q. You know that? A. That’s right.
Q. And the notice came back to you that they were not
in the grades for freedom of choice? A. That’s right.
Q. And the notice said that because they were not in
any of the grades of free choice that for that reason the
applications were rejected, and that was on the notice
that you received? A. That’s right.
Q. And you know, of course, that there had been a trial
on the issue of lateral transfers, you know about that,
don’t you?
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
303a
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
Objection, by Mr. Chambers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You know at that time there was a hearing on the
issue of lateral transfers before Judge Butler and you
were at that hearing, weren’t you? A. I came up here
—47—
but didn’t stay.
Q. Did you go to Clinton? A. No, sir.
Q. You knew that there was a hearing in this case there?
A. That’s right.
Q. And you know that that hearing was about lateral
transfers ?
Mr. Schwelb: We concede that there has been
such a hearing, and we concede that the Judge ruled
that the Board of Education was not required to
admit those.
Q. Judge Butler ruled on that issue and issued an order
stating that those children were not to be admitted into
the ■school during the 1965-66 year? A. I believe so.
Q. Reverend Dunston, what school is Alonzo Dunn sched
uled to attend for the coming year? A. Riverside.
Q. Who signed that application? A. We did.
Q. Who is “we” ? A. My wife and I.
Q. Now, you said you attempted to get some Negro
parents to request reassignment of their children in 1963?
A. As far as I recall.
Q- Do you remember who those parents were? A. I
don’t remember the names of the parents.
Q- You are unable to recall the names of those parents
at the present time? A. That’s right.
304a
Q. Now, you have stated that the names of the children
were published in the Frankling Times! A. That’s right,
the names of the children and their families.
Q. In the issue of the Franklin Times of June 8, 1965?
A. That’s correct.
Q. You know that the names of those two children that
resided in your boarding home with you and your wife
were published in that issue of the Franklin Times? A.
That’s correct.
Q. And in that issue of the Times there was nothing
untruthful about those children with whom you were con
cerned? A. No, sir, there was nothing untruthful about it.
Q. It stated the truth? A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, the Board of Education of Franklin County is
a public agency, is it not? A. That’s right.
Q. You and others vote on the members of the Board
and they spend tax money? A. That’s correct.
- 4 9 -
Q. And you know that the Minutes of the Board of Edu
cation of Franklin County are open to public inspection?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
Mr. Yarborough: I will rephrase the question.
Q. You know that North Carolina law requires that
the Minutes of the Franklin County Board of Education
be open to the public? A. I think so.
Q. When you sent in that application to the Board for
transfer of those two children residing in your boarding
home did you present the Board not to make it available
to public inspection? A. No, I didn’t.
Q. Were you told by any official or any representative
of the Board of Education at that time that it would be
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
305a
treated as any other public record, open to public inspec
tion! A. Not at that time. Later on we were asking
Mr. Smith, suggesting to him that we didn’t want the names
published.
Q. That was later on! A. That’s right; and that was
after we received a letter of intimidation, and that was
the cause of it.
Q. After the names were published in June and within
three months of the time they were published you were
—50—
actively engaged in civil rights demonstrations or engaged
in a civil rights demonstration relating to voting! A.
That’s right.
Q. And you have been active for ten years in that work?
A. Something like that.
Q. Has any member of the Franklin County Board of
Education or any official, agent, or representative of the
Board ever intimidated or threatened you? A. No, not
to my knowledge. I received several telephone calls but
I didn’t know who they were coming from.
Q. You are not intimating that they were from any
members of the Board of Education, are you?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
A. I don’t think they were.
Q. You don’t think they were? A. That’s right; but I
don’t know who the telephone calls panic from.
Q- So far as the incidents that you have testified about
as to threats, and so on, they didn’t come to you from the
Board of Education, the school Board? A. Not to me.
Q. Not to you? A. That’s right.
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
306a
- 5 1 -
Q. So any accusation against the Board of Education is
based on inference or something gathered from your opin
ion—
—Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
Q. -—as far as any accusation against the Board, as far
as intimidation is concerned?
Objection, by Mr. Schwelb.
A. I don’t think the freedom of choice plan will work in
Franklin County due to intimidation, because the people
are afraid of intimidation, so the people are afraid to
make a choice.
Q. But you are not blaming the Board of Education for
any of those things? A. I am not accusing the Board of
Education of anything. I ’m not blaming anybody but
those who are responsible for it, and I don’t know who
they are.
Q. To get the record clear, you are not blaming the
Board of Education for the intimidation, are you?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
Mr. Yarborough: I just do not like to leave the
inference, but I will go on.
Q. Now, Reverend Dunston, you spoke about Mrs. Ar
rington; she lives in Cedar Street Township? A. I don’t
know what township she lives in.
—52—
Q. Don’t you know that she votes in Cedar Street Town
ship? A. I just don’t know. I don’t know what township
she lives in.
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
307a
Q. Have you ever known her to vote in Louisburg Town
ship! A. No, sir.
Q. She usually votes, doesn’t she! A. As far as I
know. I never have seen her vote.
Q. Now, as to these children there in your home, the
Welfare Department put them there, assigned them to you!
A. I think so.
Q. And the Welfare Department took them away from
you, didn’t they! A. As far as I know.
Q. Now, you stated that several of these threats, calls,
that after they came in you called the police or the sheriff,
and always officers came out, responded! A. That’s right.
Q. And you were never able to give them any informa
tion at any time as to who made any of those threats or
any of those calls to you! A. No; because I don’t know.
Q. So, as far as you know, the officers didn’t get any in
formation, any information that they needed in order
to arrest anyone or who to investigate! A. That’s right.
—53—
Q. And officers responded to every call you made! A.
That’s right.
Q. And you have stated, I believe, that people cannot
exercise their free choice on account of harassment! A.
That’s right.
Q. Some of the people have exercised free choice in the
past year, haven’t they! A. Yes, I think there was sup
posed to have been ten to enter, but it only ended up
with six; only ten were admitted and it ended up with six.
Q. I know, but some have continued in the school of their
choice throughout the year! A. That’s correct; but some
did not.
Q- The Otis Gill child in the 4th grade! A. That’s
right.
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston
308a
Mr. Schwelb: They are all in the record.
Q. The Reverend Brawley’s child? A. Yes.
Q. And there were others in the county, several at
Bunn? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You know the Reverend Mr. Brawley and yon know
Mr. Gill? A. Very well.
Q. And Mr. Gill is at the present moment president
of the NAACP in the county? A. That’s right.
- 5 4 -
Q. And you and he married sisters? A. That’s right.
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all the questions I have
to ask this witness.
Mr. Schwelb: You are excused, Reverend Dunston,
(Witness Excused)
Deposition of Booker Talefero Driver
—55-
B o o k e r T a l e t t .r o D r i v e r , a w i t n e s s f o r t h e p l a i n t i f f s , be
i n g d u l y s w o r n , d e p o s e s a n d s a y s :
Direct Examination by Mr. Schivelb:
Q. Please state your full name, and your race. A.
Booker Talefero Driver; Negro.
Q. Where do you live? A. I live in Franklin County,
Route 4, Louisburg, North Carolina.
Q. How much education have you had? A. I have bad
three years of college.
Q. Were you in the Service? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long were you in the Service? A. Two years.
Q. What kind of discharge did you get upon leaving the
Service? A. An honorable discharge.
Deposition of Booker Talefero Driver
Q. Do you have any children? A. Yes.
Q. How many school-age children do you have? A.
Four.
Q. What school do they go to? A. Gethsemane High
School.
Q. Are the teachers in the Gethsemane High School all
white or Negro? A. Negro.
—56—
Q. Did you try to get your children into a predominantly
white school at one time? A. Yes, I did.
Q. In the spring of 1965-66 do you recall whether or not
there were freedom of choice and lateral transfer forms
distributed to the parents in your county, including your
self? A. They were.
Q. Did you attempt to secure lateral transfer for any of
your children? A. No.
Q. Did you try to transfer any of your children to pre
dominantly white schools? A. Yes.
Q. Which ones? A. All four.
Q. Why did you want to send them to formerly all white
schools? A. Well, for one thing, it is nearer.
Q. How much nearer? A. One mile or better.
Q. Did you have any other reasons for wanting to do
so! A. Yes.
—57—
Q. What were they? A. The second reason was because
of lunch room facilities; we have none at the present school,
the Gethsemane School.
Q. You have no lunch facilities at the Gethsemane
School? A. That’s right.
Q- To what school did you try to transfer them? A. To
Bunn.
310a
Q. Were there any courses that yon know of that your
children wanted to take at the Bunn School? A. No.
Q. Now, were your children sent to the Bunn High
School? A. No.
Q. Do you know why? A. The only reason I received
was that they were not in those four grades, not in the
four grades category.
Q. Now, do you recall that the names of the parents re
questing transfers for their children came out in the news
paper? A. They did come out in the newspaper.
Q. After they came out in the newspaper do you recall
any incident happening near your house on the same night
that another incident happened at Mr. Coppedge’s house!
A. Yes, the same night that a cross was burned at Reverend
Coppedge’s house the next morning I noticed a cross was
—58-
laying in front of my door; it was beside the road.
Q. Was that shortly after the names came out in the
newspaper, or do you remember? A. I don’t remember.
Q. Do you know Mr. Coppedge? A. Yes, I know him.
Q. Now, do you know James Cheek? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know of any incident that happened at James
Cheek’s house, or have you heard of any incident that hap
pened to him?
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
A. I heard that some oil was placed in his well water.
Q. Do you know Mrs. Irene Arrington? A. Yes.
Q. What have you heard happened, any incident, that
happened to her?
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
Deposition of Booker Talefero Driver
311a
A. There were some telephone calls, for one thing.
Q. Have you heard of anything else with respect to her!
A. That’s all I know about.
Q. What school did you select for your children to attend
during the coming year? A. Gethsemane.
—59—
Q. Why A. Well, I had such a problem trying to ex
plain why they were not admitted to Bunn last year I just
didn’t want to run into the same problem again, this time I
wanted to make sure before I applied because I was so far
disappointed.
Q. Which school do you now think better, Bunn or
Gethsemane ? A. Bunn.
Direct Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Driver, had you requested reassignment of your
children prior to 1965? A. No.
Cross Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. You live in the Cross Creek territory? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you live on the north side of the river, do you live
on the Bunn side or the Maplewood side? A. I live on
the Maplewood side.
Q. Which is the north side of the river? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you own your own place? A. Yes.
Q. You had four children in school during this past school
year? A. Yes, sir.
—60—
Q- You know that the free choice plan in operation in
the school year 1965-66 applied only to four grades, this
past year? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Booker Talefero Driver
312a
Q. None of your children was in one of those four grades!
A. That’s correct.
Q. And you applied for lateral transfers for those later
other than the four grades of free choice! A. Yes.
Q. And the Board denied your application! A. Yes.
Q. And the Board sent you a notice stating that those
children were not in either of the four grades! A. Yes,
sir.
Q. That was the substance of it! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then you joined with others in bringing a law
suit against the Board of Education of Franklin County to
admit them during the school year! A. Yes.
Q. And you know how that phase of this suit has been
resolved, do you not! A. Yes.
—61-
Q. And now, in this year, in April or in the early days of
May you received through the mail some documents from
the Board of Education regarding the free choice plan for
the 1966-67 school year, did you not! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were sent an envelope to send back any re
ply! A. Yes.
Q. And there was an explanation given that all grades
would be open for the 1966-67 school year on free choice!
A. Yes.
Q. And it had information in there from the Board that
the names would not be made public, one of the notices or
the letter so informed you! A. I don’t remember that.
Q. Anyhow, you have applied for your children to be as
signed for the 1966-67 school year to the Gethsemane High
School! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you have stated that the reason you did that was
that you didn’t want to humiliate your children! A. Yes,
sir.
Deposition of Booker Talefero Driver
313a
Q. Well, you knew last year or knew prior to the opening
of the 1965-66 school year that the next year free choice
—62—
would apply to all grades? A. No, I did not.
Q. You didn’t know that the free choice would apply this
coming year, didn’t know that in September of this year
free choice would apply to all grades? A. No, I didn’t
know that.
Q. I ask you if you didn’t attend one or more meetings
with the Board of Education? A. Yes, I did.
Q. And I ask you if a representative of the Board didn’t
tell you that it was most unusual, with the number of chil
dren you had, that none of them fitted the four grades,
weren’t you told that? A. Yes.
Q. And weren’t you told that for the coming year it
would be for all grades? A. I don’t recall that.
Q. You knew in April when the forms were sent that this
year free choice was to be extended to all twelve grades in
the Franklin County school system? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You know that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And in spite of that you still selected the Grethsemane
School? A. Yes, sir.
—63—
Q. Now, those meetings that you attended with the Frank
lin County Board of Education, they were amiable meet
ings, the people were cordial people and all were on good
terms there? A. Yes.
Q. And you know some of the members of the Board?
A. Yes.
Q. You know the Superintendent and other representa
tives of the Board and know them very well? A. Yes.
Q. Do you take the Franklin Times or is it available to
you for reading? A. I don’t take it, but my father does.
Deposition of Booker Talefero Driver
314a
Q. And you saw the names of the people who had made
application for transfer for the 1965-66 school year, you
saw those names in the paper? A. Yes, sir.
Q. At the time that you made application had anybody
told you that they would not be published? A. No, sir.
Q. You didn’t ask anybody at the time you applied that it
not be published? A. No.
— 64-
Q. Now, you said you found a cross in front of your
house, did you? A. In front of my house on the same morn
ing that the cross was burned at Reverend Coppedge’s
house the night before.
Q. What was the type of cross, what was its condition,
had it been burned? A. It wasn’t on fire, had been set on
fire before that, was just a wooden cross about 7 feet tall
made of pine.
Q. It was a wooden cross and the wood had not been
burned? A. It had been burned, yes.
Q. Did you see it when it was burning? A. No.
Q. How far was it from your house, how close was it to
where you lived? A. Approximately 40 feet, I would say.
Q. Was it on the road or in the ditch, or where? A. It
was beside the road.
Q. Do you remember what month that was? A. No, sir,
I don’t recall.
Q. Was it before or after these names were published in
the paper? A. It was after they had been published.
—65—
Q. That is all that has happened to you—I mean, yon
have the same credit you had before? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you come and go pretty much now as you want
to, just like you did before, don’t you? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Booker Talefero Driver
315a
Q. And yon deal with people in Bnnn and Louisbnrg in
the stores, and lawyers’ offices, and at other places in those
towns, without being subjected to any intimidation or fear,
don’t you? A. Yes.
Q. Do you have a telephone? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you received any telephone calls that were out
of the way? A. I don’t recall any.
Q. Mr. Driver, you say there is a difference of a mile
or a little bit more from where you live to the Bunn school
than from you live to the Gethsemane school, that is, the
Bunn school is that much nearer to your home? A. That’s
right.
Q. It is about the same distance in school travel on the
same road to get to both schools from your house? A.
— 66—
There is about a difference of one mile.
Q. They do ride the bus? A. That’s correct.
Q. Did you know that the Gethsemane school for the
coming school year has made arrangements to serve a cafe
teria lunch in accordance with a government grant, a gov
ernment program, did you know that? A. I didn’t know
about that.
Q. Didn’t you know that the Gethsemane school, the
Riverside School, and Perry’s School—You are familiar
with those schools, are you not?
Didn’t you know that those schools will be under a
government program receiving, provided they qualify un
der government regulations, their meals at 20 cents less
than other schools, did you know that would be in effect
this coming year? A. No, I did not.
Q- Have you heard that they were to have that program?
A. I heard that some schools would have it but I do not
know definitely which ones.
Deposition of Booker Talefero Driver
316a
Q. You had heard that some schools were to get their
meals 20 cents cheaper, and that Riverside school had that
program this past year, you have heard that, haven’t you!
A. Yes.
- 6 7 -
Q. You say that you know James Cheek; he lives how far
from you! A. Approximately 20 miles.
Q. And Mrs. Irene Arrington lives how far from you!
A. Approximately 15 miles.
Q. You live on the southeast side of Louisburg, and
Mrs. Arrington lives on the north side of Louisburg, and
James Cheek was living on the northwest side of Louis
burg! A. That’s right.
Q. Usually in traveling from your house to Mr. Cheek’s
house you would go through Louisburg! A. That’s right.
Q. And to go to Mrs. Arrington’s house from your house
you would normally go through Louisburg, perhaps go
otherwise, but that would be the shortest way!
Q. And so far as this school year, this coming school
year is concerned, and I mean the school year 1966-67 you
have made a choice of schools, made it during the spring
period either in April or during the first few days of May,
freely, didn’t you!
Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
Q. Do you understand what I have asked you! A. Yes,
sir, I understand.
Q. You exercised a free choice for your children either
— 68-
in April or the first few days of May 1966, didn’t you?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers, To the form.
Deposition of BooTcer Talefero Driver
317a
A. I wouldn’t care to answer that.
Mr. Chambers: Answer it, if you know, and if you
don’t, just say so.
Q. Mr. Driver, didn’t you state a few minutes ago that
you had a problem last year, that you had to explain to so
many people why your children were not admitted to Bunn,
and that they were disappointed and you didn’t want to
disappoint them again for this coming year, isn’t that the
answer you gave, in substance? A. That’s correct.
Q. And that is your reason, hut it was your choice that
you made, and you made that decision so as not to disap
point them? A. Yes.
Q. And that was the reason in April or May of this year
for the 1966-67 school year why you chose to send them
back to Grethsemane for the 1966-67 school year? A. Well,
I felt, figured they might be rejected once more.
Q. But you made that decision? A. I made the decision.
The 1965-66 letter stated, but I don’t recall the exact words
but can give you the idea, that my children regardless of
race or color could go to any school of their choice, so I
sent that, decided to send my children to the Bunn school.
—69—
Q. But they were not in the free choice grades, and you
know that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You stated on direct examination that there were not
any courses of study offered at Bunn that were not given
at the Grethsemane school, or words to that effect? A.
That’s right.
Q. Now, Mr. Driver, you attended a meeting in Louis-
burg in March of this year which Air. Fink held in the
courthouse, sometime in February or March? A. I don’t
recall that.
Deposition of Booker Talefero Driver
318a
Q. Didn’t you attend a meeting in the courthouse, at
which time I turned on the lights and left, and Mr. Fink
from Washington held, in which meeting you stated when
asked which school you wanted to transfer those children
to, you stated which one? A. Yes, I remember that.
Q. That meeting was held in the court room in Louisburg
sometime in February or March? A. Yes.
Q. And you stated to Mr. Fink what you wanted, and yon
now know what I am talking about? A. Yes.
- 7 0 -
Q. And even on that day you still wanted to transfer your
children? A. Yes.
Q. And that was long after the morning that you found
the cross in front of your house, some 8 or 9 months later!
A. Yes.
Q. That happened in February or March and this other
thing happened in June, some time along then? A. (No
answer)
Q. So, about 9 months after the children’s names ap
peared in the newspaper you met with Mr. Fink and again
stated that you wanted to transfer your children in the
middle of the year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That’s right? A. Yes, sir.
Q. From G-ethsemane to the Bunn school in the middle
of the school year? A. That’s right.
Q. That was all after that, and you know that all of this
misunderstanding, your trouble about last year’s school
assignment is behind us and some parts of it have been
settled by the Judge, have they not!
Objection by Mr. Chambers.
Deposition of BooJcer Talefero Driver
A . (No answer).
319a
Q. You know how the case has come out so far, don’t you!
—71—
A. Yes.
Q. And you know, don’t you, that the Judge did not re
quire the Board of Education to admit your children for the
school year 1965-66!
Objection, by Mr. Chambers, To the form of the
question.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the only complaint you have, the only dissatisfac
tion that you had with the Board of Education was because
they did not assign your four children to the Bunn school
for the 1965-66 school year?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers, To the form.
A. Yes.
Q. Otherwise your relations with the Board of Education
have been satisfactory? A. Yes.
Q. Nobody advised you before you made the choice for
your children in April of 1966, nobody advised you not to
make that, did they, or did anybody advise you not to or
recommend that you not do it? A. No, none.
Redirect Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Was it your impression that when you assigned your
children or requested that they be assigned to an integrated
—7 2 -
school that that was popular or unpopular among the white
people of Franklin County?
Objection, by Mr. Tucker.
A. Unpopular.
Deposition of Booker Talefero Driver
320a
Redirect Examination by Mr. Chambers-.
Q. Did that affect your thinking, was that given due con
sideration?
Objection, by Mr. Tucker.
A. Yes.
Q. You did consider it? A. I considered it, yes, sir.
Q. How did it affect your decision as to where you would
send your children to school! A. Well, in that I think some
of it was that I was thinking of the incidents that were
happening over the County could happen to me, and I
noticed I didn’t have any incidents to happen to me until
after I signed the application for my children to go to the
white school.
Recross Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. You say that you considered it, but it didn’t affect you
any, did it, didn’t affect your decision! A. Yes, I would
say it would.
—73-
Q. Well, you made that decision as late as February,
March, or April of 1966, stating that you still wanted to
get them transferred in the middle of the school year, you
did make that decision at that time? A. Yes.
Q. You signed a paper to that effect for Mr. Fink? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Signed that paper to the effect that you still wanted
them transferred? A. Yes.
Q. Whatever effect it did have on you along in May or
June of 1965 you did do what you wanted to do in February
or March of 1966, didn’t you? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Booker Talefero Driver
321a
Q. In May of 1965 you asked for assignment of your
children, the reassignment of them to the Bunn school?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you say you heard of some incidents? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And then in February or March 1966 you still made
the same decision, didn’t you? A. Yes.
Q. So hearing about them didn’t change your decision,
did it?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
—74—
Q. Between May of 1965, soon after May of 1965 and
March of 1966 you heard of some incidents happening be
tween those two dates? A. That’s correct.
Q. But what you heard had happened didn’t change your
decision, did it ? A. No.
Q. And after May of 1965 at which time you first asked
that your children be reassigned to the Bunn school, then
in February or March of 1966 you again requested that
your children be assigned to the Bunn school? A. That’s
correct.
Q. So you did not change any decision you had made then,
did you? A. No.
Q. And you say now that you prefer that they go to the
Bunn school? A. Yes.
Q. And you do know that you are going to have an op
portunity to make another choice and your lawyer has told
you that, hasn’t he, that you are going to have that op
portunity within a few weeks? A. No, he hasn’t.
Q. You are a party to this lawsuit, aren’t you? A. Yes,
—7 5 -
sir.
Deposition of Booker Talefero Driver
322a
Mr. Chambers: I would like for the record to show
that at this time the Court has not entered an Order
as of this time.
Q. Though you say that you had trouble or bother ex
plaining to your friends why your children were not ad
mitted you went ahead and made the same decision after
these incidents had happened that you heard about?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers, To the form.
Question withdrawn.
Q. Though you heard of these incidents happening, that
didn’t affect your decision, didn’t change your decision, did
it? A. No.
Q. And you are going to make the same decision that you
made in May of 1965, that is, you are going to request the
Board of Education to reassign your children to the Bunn
school? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You are reiterating or reconfirming, you were doing
that in February or March of 1966, that your children be
assigned at this time to the Bunn school? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you are confirming the same decision that yon
made last year ?
—76-
Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
Q. If you get another chance, when you get it under the
free choice plan, in spite of all of these incidents that you
say you have heard of, you are going to make the same de
cision you made in 1965, that is, you are going to request
the Board of Education to reassign your children to the
Bunn school? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Booher Talefero Driver
323a
Q. You reiterated or confirmed that decision in February
or March of 1966 that your children be reassigned at that
time to the Bunn school? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you reiterated and confirmed that same decision
in the courthouse at Louisburg when Mr. Fink was there!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you say that in order to avoid possible embarrass
ment to your children or to you that you decided to let them
go to the Gethsemane school? A. Yes.
Q. But you say now that if you get another freedom of
choice within the next few weeks, and the Court has Ordered
that you will again have that free choice, you will request
the Board of Education to let your children go to the Bunn
Deposition of Booker Talefero Driver
Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
Mr. Yarborough: I will rephrase it.
Q. In May of 1965 you asked the Board of Education
to reassign your children to the Bunn school, didn’t you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And in February or March of 1966 you asked the
court to have them reassigned to the Bunn school along
about the middle of the year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then, in April of 1966 pursuant to the receipt of the
free choice form you asked the Board to reassign them to
Gethsemane school? A. Yes.
Q. But now, if and when you get this new chance of
free choice, which you will probably get within the next
week or two and prior to the opening of the 1966-67 school
year, you will at that time ask the Board to reassign your
children to the Bunn school? A. Yes, sir, I will.
324a
Q. So, in spite of all of the incidents yon have heard
of you will ask the Board of Education on that date to do
exactly what you asked them to do in May of 1965? A.
Yes, sir.
- 7 8 -
Q. That is, you will ask the Board to reassign your
children to the Bunn school? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You will ask the Board at that time to reassign all
of your children to the Bunn school? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you will ask that in spite of all of these incidents
that you say that you have heard about, the phone calls, the
oil having been put in Mr. Cheek’s well, the cross burning
at the Reverend Coppedge’s house? A. Yes, sir.
Be-Bedirect Examination by Mr. Chambers-.
Q. Mr. Driver, in April of 1966 when you requested the
reassignment of your children hack to the Gethsemane
school and you stated that this was because of some prob
lem that you had had and that you had heard that others
had had who had requested reassignment under the free
dom of choice plan, were you or have you been motivated
in your decision with respect to where you requested the
reassignment of your children because of the freedom of
choice plan? A. I don’t understand your question.
Mr. Yarborough: I don’t understand it either.
—79-
Q. Mr. Driver, has the freedom of choice plan been ob
jectionable to you in any way? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In what way has it been objectionable to you? A.
Well, it looks like instead of the Board making the decision
the parent has to make the decision and get the responsi
bility.
Deposition of Booker Talefero Driver
325a
Q. For what? A. For these people that are causing
these incidents to happen; in other words, having it di
rected toward their responsibility.
Q. Now, Mr. Yarborough asked you if the court ordered
another free choice period he instituted whether you would
request your children to go to the Bunn school, that is,
with the parents exercising free choice for the period that
might be ordered by the court!
—Objection, by Mr. Tucker.
A. I don’t understand the question.
Q. Well, Mr. Driver, you stated that your objection to
free choice, the freedom of choice plan, is that it places
the responsibility upon the parents? A. Yes.
Q. Now, my question is this: If the Court orders a new
freedom of choice period would this responsibility still be
placed on the parent if the parent has to exercise choice
—80—
as to whether to send his children to a predominantly white
school?
Objection, by Mr. Tucker.
A. I think it would still be objectionable. I think the
Board and the court will be taking the step of taking the
responsibility away from themselves.
Be-Recross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Driver, at the time you had a choice you assumed
that responsibility in spite of the idea that you are express
ing that the parent ought not to have this responsibility,
you certainly assumed it in behalf of your children in May
of 1965 and in February or March of 1966 and in May of
Deposition of Booker Talefero Driver
326a
1966 and yon are willing to assnme it again when yon get
another free choice period, are you?
Mr. Chambers: I object not only to the form of the
question but it looks as if you were asking him to
contradict what he has previously testified to.
Mr. Yarborough: I ’ll strike that and ask another
question.
Q. Mr. Driver, in May of 1966 you had a special reason
for sending your children to the Gethsemane because, as
I believe you stated, you did not want your children to be
embarrassed, were afraid that they might not be admitted?
- 8 1 -
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you made that decision on account of the special
relationship between you and your children, a special
matter between you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So every time you have had the opportunity to exer
cise a choice as to where you wanted the Board to assign
your children you assumed the responsibility of exercising
it, didn’t you?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
A. (No answer)
Q. Well, Mr. Driver, you certainly exercised the responsi
bility of a parent for your four children in May of 1963
by returning that form? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you sent that form back to the Board you as
sumed and exercised that responsibility, took it upon your
self as their father to exercise that responsibility? A. Yes.
Q. And you did that again in February or March of
1966, as the father of those four children? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Booker Talefero Driver
327a
Q. You undertook to tell the Court where you wanted
—82—
them to go and you assumed and exercised that responsi
bility in April of 1966 again, didn’t you, when you sent that
letter back to the Board of Education? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You exercised that responsibility as to where you
wanted them to assign your children, and you now say that
you are willing to do it again when the free choice period
is again offered? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you get that form you expect to sign it and
send it back to the Board? A. Yes.
Q. Now, you think that the court or the Board of Educa
tion should assign the pupils to the school closest to where
they live and not take into account any desire or wish of
the parents of those children, is that what you say? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And you think that the children should he sent or
assigned to the school nearest to where they live and re
gardless of who the pupils are who go there, regardless of
everything and everybody else and also you have the idea
that wrhere a man lives ought not to deny him the right to
have the choice of the school for his children to go to,
should he able to choose to go to the school where there are
better services? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Booker Talefero Driver
(Witness Excused)
Deposition of Cecil Macon
- 8 3 -
C e c i l M a c o n , a witness for the plaintiffs, being duly
sworn, deposes and says:
Direct Examination by Mr. Leonard E. Ryam:
Q. Please state your full name, your place of residence,
and your race. A. My name is Cecil Macon, I live in
Franklin County, I am a Negro.
Q. Do you live in Louisburg or close to Louisburg, North
Carolina? A. Yes, sir, I live within a mile or two of
Louisburg.
Q. Do you work in Franklin County? A. Yes, sir, I
work in Franklin County.
Q. What kind of work do you do? A. Brick work, ma
sonry work.
Q. You are a mason, you do bricklaying work? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Doing that work do you engage in subcontracting
contracts? A. Yes, sir, most of my work is in contract
work.
Q. Now, in the spring- of 1965 did you have a man work-
ink for you by the name of Sidney Manley? A. Yes, sir,
I did.
Q. How long bad he worked for you at that time? A.
Five or six years. I don’t recall exactly how long right
now.
—84—
Q. What kind of work did he do for you? A. Labor
work, mixing mortar mostly.
Q. Is he a Negro? A. Yes, he is.
Q. Sometimes in the spring of 1965 did you receive a
telephone call with respect to that Mr. Manley that worked
for you? A. I did.
329a
Q. Where were you when you received that telephone
call! A. I was at home.
Q. Please tell us what, in substance, that telephone call
was, just tell what was said. A. Well, some man called
me and asked me was Sidney Manley working for me and
I told him Yes, and he said, “Have him withdraw his child
or fire him.”
Q. That was what he said, in substance, in that tele
phone conversation! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know who it was that made that telephone call
to you! A. No, I do not.
Q. Was it a man’s voice or a woman’s voice? A. It was
a man’s voice, sounded like a man’s voice.
Q. Did you speak to Mr. Manley subsequently and tell
him what that conversation was about? A. Yes, sir, the
—85—
next morning I told him about it, told him what was said
to me over the phone.
Q. Just what did you say to him? A. I said “Sidney,
someone called me over the phone last night and asked me
to have you withdraw your child or either fire you.” And
he said he didn’t know, said, “I didn’t know he had applied
to go to another school, but he must have done it.” They
are the words he told me.
Mr. Eyan: They are all the questions I have.
Mr. Chambers : No questions.
Cross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q- You say you received a telephone call from some
unknown person? A. That’s right, I don’t know who it
was.
Deposition of Cecil Macon
330a
Q. You have no idea who it was? A. No, sir, I really
don’t.
Q. And whoever it was asked you if Sidney Manley
worked for you? A. That’s right.
Q. And whoever it was told you to have him withdraw
his child or fire him? A. Yes.
Q. And you told Mr. Manley about it the next day? A
Yes, sir, the next morning.
— 86-
Q. And he said that he didn’t know that his child had
even applied? A. He said he didn’t know, that he must
have done it.
Q. He didn’t know that he had done it? A. That’s right.
Q. That he must have done it? A. That’s what he told
me.
Q. How many children does he have? A. I don’t re
member how many he has, but quite a number, around five
children, if I make no mistake.
Q. Does he have one child named Sidney A. Manley!
A. He didn’t say definitely what their names were, to tell
you the truth, if he did I don’t remember, because I can’t
always remember the names of mine.
Q. Would you recognize Sidney Manley’s handwriting,
have you ever seen him write? A. I don’t believe I have
ever seen him write; I don’t know his handwriting.
Q. Do you know what he did, if anything, as a result of
your telling him that? A. Well, he kept on working up
until this year off and on. His wife got sick right after
then, got sick sometime during the fall and he was off from
work looking after her, staying around the hospital look-
—87—
ing after her before she died. He came back and told me
Deposition of Cecil Macon
331a
that he thought he was going to have to get a job over
there around Durham somewhere, and he did.
Q. Do you know whether or not he and his boy had a
fight? A. No, sir, I don’t know anything about that.
Q. Of course you had a boy attending school, still have
one or more children attending school? A. I have two
more attending.
Q. Those who live in the Cedar Street community are
called parakeeters? A. Yes.
Q. You live close to the Reverend Sidney Dunston? A.
Yes.
Q. Your children have been attending the Cedar Street
school or the Riverside school? A. That’s where all of
them go, at least nine of them or ten, there are twelve in all.
Q. You have put ten through school and you are winding
up with two more ? A. That’s right.
Q. I believe you are on the Riverside School commit
tee? A. That’s right.
Q. And that committee recommends the principal and
the teachers? A. Yes, sir.
— 88—
Q. In the operation of the Riverside, and Cedar Street
schools? A. That’s correct.
Q. And everybody on that committee has a child or chil
dren in school, as far as you know? A. I am afraid to
say about that, because I don’t know.
Q. Some of them do, then? A. Some of them do, but as
far as all of them having children in school I don’t know.
Q- You are a patron of the school, your children go there ?
A. That’s right.
Q. You work for both white and colored people in the
community there ? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Cecil Macon
332a
Q. You say that Sidney Manley continued to work for
you off and on until his wife died? A. That’s right.
Q. And he continued to do the same kind of work that
he had been doing after you received this complaint? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And he left you for awhile and went to Durham? A.
Yes, sir, he said his wife was in the hospital and that he
had to he with her a good part of that fall and then after
- 8 9 -
she died he came back and worked a while longer.
Q. He was just a common laborer in masonry brick
work? A. Yes, sir. He mixed mortar, things like that.
Q. He was just an ordinary laborer, a common laborer
working there in the community? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that’s all you know about this thing? A. That’s
all I know about it, yes, sir.
Redirect Examination Toy Mr. Ryan:
Q. If you had your choice would you send your children
to the white school in Louisburg? A. If they wanted to
go I would.
Q. For what reasons? A. Well, because they would
want to go, and there are one or two other reasons, prob
ably. It might be closer, in other words than between my
house and the high school where they are going, and of
course it is probably a better school, as far as that goes.
Recross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. You say that the Louisburg school is a better school;
do you mean by that that it has better teachers or a bet-
—90—
ter principal, or what? A. It is probably better built.
Deposition of Cecil Macon
333a
Q. It’s a newer building? A. That’s right.
Q. I do not want to embarrass you, but since you have
been on that committee you have nominated a principal
and a number of teachers! A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have picked out the very best ones you could
find? A. Yes, sir, to the best of my knowledge.
Q. You have picked the very best ones? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And as far as you knowT they have all been good
teachers and you have had a good principal? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Your principal, Mr. Harris, has been over there for
some 30 years. A. I reckon it has been at least 30 years
that he has been there.
Q. You have exercised your choice just like you have
wanted to? A. What the children wanted.
Q. You have exercised your full free choice and nobody
has intimidated you, have they? A. That’s right.
—91—
Q. And as to Sidney Manley, you had already made your
choice at that time, you made your choice at the same time
he did? A. Well, the children had; I left that to their
mother.
Q. And, as far as you know, they went where they wanted
to go? A. That’s right, as far as I know.
Q. What I ’m getting at Mr. Macon, is this: You have no
complaint against the members of the Franklin County
Board of Education, have you? A. Not that I know of.
Q. Well, you would know it if you had, wouldn’t you?
A. I have none as far as I know.
Q- You know most of the members of the Board, don’t
you? A. I think so.
Q- Your business has been good for a long time in that
area? A. That’s right.
Deposition of Cecil Macon
334a
Deposition of Cecil Macon
Q. You have had all the business that you could do or
that you wanted to do and could do, haven’t you? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Mr. Macon, I believe you talked with Mr. Eyam just
before coming over here to testify, didn’t you? A. Yes,
sir.
- 9 2 -
Q. What was your conversation about, what you were to
testify? A. No, sir.
Q. Didn’t he talk to you about what your testimony would
be? A. That’s right. He went over it with me, asked me
about it.
Mr. Yarborough: They are all the question I
have.
Mr. Eyam: You are excused, Mr. Macon.
(Witness Excused.)
Deposition of Sidney Winston Manley
—93—
S id n e y W i n s t o n M a n l e y , a witness for the plaintiffs,
being duly sworn, deposes and says:
direct Examination by Mr. Ryam:
Q. Please state your full name, and your race. A.
Sidney Winston Manley; I am a Negro.
Q. Mr. Manley in the spring of 1965 were you living out
side of Franklin County? A. No, sir, I was living in
Franklin County in 1965.
Q. Where were you working? A. I was working around
in Franklin County?
Q. In the spring of 1965 were you employed by Mr.
Cecil Macon? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What kind of work were you doing for him? A. I
was a brick mason’s helper, a laborer, a common laborer.
Q. At that time, that is, in the spring of 1965, how long
had you been working for Mr. Macon? A. I imagine for
about five or six years.
Q. Do you have any children? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have a son named Sidney Manley, Jr.? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. In the spring of 1965 did you sign a form to transfer
—94—
him from one school to another? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He was attending what school at the time? A. River
side.
Q. You signed the form for him to he transferred to
what school? A. To Louisburg school.
Q. Sometime in the spring of 1965 did you have a con
versation with Mr. Cecil Macon about a telephone call
that he had received? A. Yes, sir.
336a
Q. Tell as what the nature of that conversation was, tell
us what Mr. Macon said to you about that telephone call.
A. Well, he told me that he had received a telephone call
from somebody but he didn’t give no name, said the people
that called didn’t give him a name.
Q. What did Mr. Macon tell you about what the person
who called said? A. He said that my child’s name was
published in the Franklin Times, that he had been assigned
to go to the Louisburg school, and he told me that the
person wanted to know was I working for him, and that he
told him Yes, and that the person told him that he either
had to let me go or I had to withdraw my child’s name,
He explained that to me that the man said that the best
—95-
thing for him to do was either to let me go or withdraw
my child’s name that was published in the paper or he
wouldn’t get much work to do around Louisburg.
Q. Subsequent to that time did you send a letter to Mr.
Smith withdrawing your child’s name ? A. Not right away.
Q. About how long after that was it? A. It was about a
week afterward.
Q. Look at this copy of this letter I hand you and say
whether or not that is the letter that you wrote to Mr,
Smith, with your signature on the letter. A. That’s right,
this is my signature on it, yes.
Mr. Ryam: I wish to offer this copy of the letter
in evidence in connection with this deposition as
Government Exhibit No. 1.
Q. Now, do you know Mrs. Irene Arrington? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Do you know James Anderson? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Sidney Winston Manley
337a
Q. Do you know the Reverend Mr. Dunston? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Do yon know of any incidents that occurred involving
either or all of them, in the County? A. I know all three
—96—
of them. There was snposed to have been some shootings
into Mrs. Arrington’s house. There was supposed to have
been a bomb put in James Anderson’s yard. And the
Reverend Mr. Dunston was supposed to have had some
kerosene poured in his well. That’s all as far as I know.
Direct Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Where are you going to send your son to school in
the coming year? A. He will be going to school in Durham
or in Wake County.
Q. Do you live in Franklin County now? A. I live in
Durham now.
Gross-Examina,tion by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. You worked for Mr. Cecil Macon, mixing mortar for
brick work, doing things of that sort? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you know most of the people in Louisburg, were
born and reared in Louisburg? A. Yes, sir, I have lived
there all my life.
Q. And you moved away recently after the loss of your
wife? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you married again? A. No, sir.
— 97—
Q. And you moved to Durham? A. Yes, sir.
Q- You left Durham when your wife died? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you say that Mr. Macon told you that he said
that your child’s name was published in the Franklin
Times? A. That was before my wife got sick.
Deposition of Sidney Winston Manley
338a
Q. But he had that eovnersation with you after the names
had come out in the Franklin Times? A. The names had
already been in the paper then.
Q. The names had already been published in the Frank
lin Times? A. Yes, sir.
Q. At the time that yon and Mr. Cecil Macon had the
conversation about the telephone call made for him? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And, then, he told yon one day when yon came to
work about the conversation? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you went to work that day? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And about a week later you wrote a letter to Mr.
Warren Smith? A. Yes, sir.
—98-
Q. And you thought about it for about a week? A.
Yes.
Q. You didn’t do anything about it for about a week, the
best you can get at it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that was the first and only time that anybody
complained to you about your child being transferred, was
when Mr. Macon told you about the telephone call? A,
That’s right.
Q. Anri that came about as a result, so he said, of the
names coming out in the Franklin Times? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You take the Franklin Times or do you read it? A.
We take it.
Q. So you saw it in the Times yourself then? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. You had already seen it when he spoke to you about
that telephone call? A. He spoke to me after it was pub
lished in the paper.
Q. You had already seen the publication in there? A. 1
had already seen the names in the Franklin Times.
Deposition of Sidney Winston Manley
339a
Q. And he spoke to yon about it? A. Yes, sir. I didn’t
keep up with the dates.
—99—
Q. But that is your best recollection? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then it was a week later before you wrote to
Mr. Smith? A. It might have been a little longer than a
week.
Q. But it was several days? A. Several days.
Q. You didn’t write him that same day? A. No, sir.
Q. There were several days in there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I ask you if those names weren’t published in the
Franklin Times on June 8,1965, in that issue of that paper?
A. I don’t know.
Q. That is a copy of your letter, the one introduced here?
A. I think so. I believe it is. It looks like my handwriting
and it is, the best I remember.
Q. Look at that copy, this copy that I hand you now, see
if this paper isn’t your letter. A. I believe it is.
Q. Is this letter (showing witness a letter) identical with
the copy? A. It was written on paper like that.
Q. Isn’t this your signature? Look at this original and
see if it isn’t. A. That is my handwriting, yes, sir.
— 100—
Q. That is your name, you signed your name on that
paper in your own handwriting? A. I signed my name to
it.
Q. And this original is exactly like the copy? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And this paper (apparently referring to the original)
is in your handwriting? A. Yes, sir.
Q. This is the original, isn’t it? A. As far as I know, it
is my handwriting.
Deposition of Sidney Winston Mcmley
340a
Q. And this issue is June 8th of the Times in which they
published the names, and you say you waited some several
days, a number of days, before you wrote this letter to
Mr. Smith, explain if you will why this letter is dated June
9, this letter to Mr. Smith in your handwriting, signed by
you?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
A. (No answer)
Q. You dated that letter, didn’t you? A. I don’t think
I dated the letter, the letter was addressed to Mr. Warren
Smith.
— 101—
Q. Look and see if this isn’t the original of your letter.
A. My sister written it.
Q. This is the letter that you were talking about pur
suant to Mr. Ryam’s direct examination, the letter that you
wrote to Mr. Smith pursuant to the conversation Mr. Macon
had with you, isn’t it? A. Wait a minute, make the ques
tion a little hit more plain.
Q. You wrote a letter after Mr. Macon spoke to you
about the telephone call that he had received about you
withdrawing your child? A. The names had been put in
the paper, like I said, before then.
Q. Before then? A. Before I written this letter.
Q. I thought you said your sister had written it? A. My
sister written it.
Q. It was for you? A. I signed it, yes.
Q. You said you had waited several days? A. I don’t
remember how many days it was.
Q. You didn’t write it that day? A. I know I didn’t
write it that day.
Deposition of Sidney Winston Manley
341a
Q. Your best recollection is that you wrote it about a
week later?
Objection, by Mr. Eyam, To tbe form.
— 102—
Mr. Eyam: Objection to the form of the question.
He testified he doesn’t recall.
Q. You wrote it several days afterward?
Mr. Eyam: I object and I direct him not to an
swer any more questions along this line.
Q. How many days afterwards was it? A. As I told
you, I don’t know.
Mr. Eyam: I object to this line of interrogation.
Mr. Yarborough: I have a right to cross-examine
him, Mr. Eyam. He has said that according to his
best recollection it was a week.
Mr. Eyam: It is all in the record.
Q. This letter is dated June 9th, isn’t it? Look at it and
see if it isn’t? A. It’s June 9th on there.
Q. And this is the letter that was written in your behalf
by your sister, isn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this paper that was introduced in evidence here
is a copy of that letter isn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, did you tell Mr. Cecil Macon that you didn’t
know your child had applied to be transferred to another
school? A. I told him that my wife had signed the paper;
he knowed about it.
—103—
Q. Tell us what you told him. A. I told him when he
'was telling me about the telephone call, I told him it must
Deposition of Sidney Winston Manley
342a
be because my kid bad signed np to go to tbe school over
there.
Q. Yon knew it? A. Yes, sir, I knowed it. A. Did you
tell Mr. Macon that you didn’t know it? A. I don’t recall
telling him I didn’t know it ; because I knowed it.
Q. What else did you tell Mr. Macon? A. Well, it wasn’t
nothing else for me to tell.
Q. What else did you tell him?
Mr. Byam: Objection. In respect to what?
Q. What else did you tell Mr. Macon, you have told us
about the telephone call that he said he received. Did you
state that your kid had done it? A. I don’t remember.
Q. What’s that? A. I don’t remember telling him any
thing else that I can recall, because he was telling me.
Q. But you answered him, didn’t you, didn’t you give
him any answer? A. About what?
Q. In answer to what he told you.
—104—
Mr. Chambers: I object to repetition.
Q. Tell what response you gave him? A. I told you
that I don’t remember telling him anything.
Q. You don’t recall giving him any answer? A. No, be
cause he was telling me.
Q. Didn’t you give any response to what he told you?
A. I didn’t say anything to him. We just sat there and
talked a little.
Q. About what? A. He was telling me it would be a
good idea not to go walking the streets late at night.
Q. What did you say to him? A. I just took his advice.
Q. What, if anything, did you say to him?
Deposition of Sidney Winston Manley
343a
Deposition of Sidney Winston Manley
Objection, by Mr. Ryam.
A. (No answer)
Q. I have asked yon what yon responded to Mr. Macon,
if yon responded anything to him. A. No more than I just
told him my kid had signed np to go to the school over
there.
Q. What school are yon referring to? A. Lonisbnrg.
Q. And yon said that yon said nothing to him, said “We
just sat there and talked awhile” and that you couldn’t
—1 0 5 -
recall anything yon said. I want to make it clear in the
record, and ask yon again, Did yon tell him that yon didn’t
know that your kid had signed np? A. I told him—
Mr. Ryam: Objection; don’t answer that.
Q. Do yon deny that you told Mr. Cecil Macon during
your conversation with him, regarding the telephone call
that he had received, that yon did not know that your child
had applied to enter the Louisbnrg school ? A. I don’t re
call telling him that.
Q. After that conversation with Mr. Macon yon kept
working for Mr. Macon and when you left his employment
you left it voluntarily, so that yon could go to Durham?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you have worked with him since from time to
time? A. I came back from Durham and worked for him
two days, I think.
Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Manley, following your letter to Mr. Smith your
child was withdrawn from the Lonisbnrg school, was he, not
344a
Deposition of Sidney Winston Manley
assigned there? A. Well, you see I got a letter from Mr.
Smith telling me that he was to go back to Riverside.
- 1 0 6 -
Further Cross Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. That was after your sister had written the letter to
Mr. Smith for you, asking that he go back to Riverside?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Smith, your
self, or did you have any conversation with any member of
the Franklin County Board of Education about this matter?
A. No, sir.
Q. You didn’t have any conversation with any of them?
A. No, sir.
Q. None whatsoever ? A. No, sir.
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all from me.
Mr. Ryam: You are excused, Mr. Manley.
(Witness Excused)
Deposition of George Vance Floyd
—107—
G e o r g e V a n c e F l o y d , a w i t n e s s f o r t h e p l a i n t i f f s , b e i n g
d u ly s w o r n , d e p o s e s a n d s a y s :
Direct Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Please state your name, and address, and your race,
for the record. A. George Vance Floyd, Louisbnrg, North
Carolina, Route 3, Negro.
Q. Mr. Floyd, what is your occupation! A. Farmer.
Q. Do you work someone else’s land! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have a family! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who are the members of your family? A. My wife
and four children.
Q. Is your wife in good health? A. No, sir, she is sick
in bed.
Q. Please state the names of your four children, and
their ages. A. Henry Lee Floyd, age 13; Claude Earl, 12;
Emma Jean, 11; and James Albert, 9 year old.
Q. Mr. Floyd, do any of those four children attend
school? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What school do they attend? A. Riverside.
—108—
Q. Do yon know what school most of the white children
living in your general area attend? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What school is that? What school or schools? A.
Louisburg and Epsom.
Q. I would like for you to tell me which of the two schools
you think is better, Riverside or Louisburg?
Objection by Mr. Tucker.
A. Louisburg.
Q. That is your opinion?
346a
Deposition of George Vance Floyd
A. Yes, sir.
Objection by Mr. Tucker.
Q. Wby do you believe Louisburg to be a better school?
A. They have the most subjects at Louisburg, more than
they do at Riverside.
Q. If you felt entirely free and without any influence
brought to bear upon you where would you like to send
your children to school? A. Louisburg; I would like to
send two of my children to Louisburg, Claude and James.
Q. And the other two, where would you want to send
them? A. Well, they have a poor ability to understand.
Q. If they had special classes at Louisburg and at River
side for children with less ability and understanding where
—109—
would you like to send your two children with slow un
derstanding? A. Riverside.
Q. If you felt entirely free as to where you woud like
to send your faster learning children where would you
send them? A. To Riverside.
Q. Did you understand my question that I asked you!
A. Maybe I didn’t understand you.
Q. Your two quicker learning children where would you
like to send them to school?
Objection by Mr. Tucker.
A. Riverside—I mean Louisburg.
Q. And if both schools, Riverside and Louisburg, had
classes for slow learners where would you want to send
those two children? The slow-learning ones, I mean. A.
Riverside.
347a
Q. Riverside? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now let’s go back to the two children you would like
to send to Louisburg. What was the reason you wanted
them to go to the Louisburg school? A. They have quick
ability to learn.
Q. You say they have quicker ability to learn, why would
you prefer to send them to Louisburg rather than River
side? A. I feel they wouldn’t be so much embarrassed,
— 110—
wouldn’t be so embarrassing to them.
Q. Perhaps you didn’t understand my question. My ques
tion was as to the quicker learning children, where you
would rather send them and why? A. To Louisburg be
cause I feel like they would get so much better training for
the future than they would at Riverside.
Q. Now, do you remember that back in the spring of
1965 free choice forms were sent out to the parents of
children living in the County asking where the parents
wanted to send their children? A. Yes, sir, I remember
that.
Q. When you got those forms where did you assign your
children at that time, to what school? A. Riverside.
Q. If free choice forms are sent out this spring for this
year’s school where are you going to send your children?
A. To Riverside.
Q. Now, this would be in spite of the fact that you think
Louisburg is the better school? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why would you do that? A. Because I ’m afraid to
transfer them.
Q. What is it you’re afraid of exactly? A. Afraid of
— Ill—
the night clan, the night riders.
Deposition of George Vance Floyd
348a
Q. What are you afraid the night riders would do? A.
They might shoot up my home, might put kerosene in my
well, and maybe bring a cross and burn the cross in front
of my house.
Q. Are you a member of the NAACP? A. I am.
Q. Do you know Mrs. Irene Arrington? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you heard of any incidents that happened to
her? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What do you know about that, what have you heard
about that? A. I heard that somebody shot into her home.
Q. Do you know how many times? A. No, I don’t.
Q. Do you know a man by the name of James Cheek? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Have you heard of any incident that has happened
to him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was that? A. Heard that somebody poured
kerosene into his well.
Q. Do you know a lady by the name of Annabel Me-
Knight? A. Yes, sir.
— 112—
Q. Have you heard of any incident that happened to her?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was that? A. She lost her job.
Q. Do you know for what reason she lost her job, have
you heard why she lost her job? A. Because she had a
child assigned to the Louisburg school.
Q. Do you know anybody by the name of Dunston? A.
Yes, sir, I know the Reverend Dunston.
Q. Have you heard of any incidents involving him? A.
Not direct.
Q. What do you mean by “not direct” ? A. I haven’t
heard him explain them.
Q. You mean what information you got about that was
gotten from other people? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of George Vance Floyd
349a
Q. What was the effect of these incidents which you have
heard of in connection with people who sent their children
or tried to send their children to desegregate the schools,
what influence did they have on your attitude !
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, to the form.
A. Made me feel some of the things might happen to me.
Mr. Schwelb: They are all the questions I have.
—113—
Mr. Chambers: I have no questions.
Cross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. You talked to an FBI man, didn’t you! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you told him, didn’t you, that you were afraid
that your landlord, Mr. Smithwitck, or Mr. Leon Spencer,
might make you move! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who owns those premises out there where you stay!
A. I don’t know who owns them.
Q. Who lives on the premises! A. Mr. Spencer lives
there.
Q. Mr. Leon Spencer! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And don’t you deal with Mr. Robert W. Smithwick
out there! A. Yes, sir, I deal with both of them.
Q. You don’t know who owns that place! A. No, sir.
Q. Who is in charge of the place! A. Mr. Smithwick’s
name is on the transactions.
Q. What transactions! A. All the marketing of the
crops transactions.
Q. You borrow money from him, do you! A. Yes, sir.
—114—
Q- And he doesn’t charge you any interest, does he ? A.
No.
Deposition of George Vance Floyd
350a
Q. Your relations with Mr. Leonard Spencer and with
Mr. Smithwick have been very good, haven’t they? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. You have been living over there for 14 years? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Now, why did you tell the FBI man—by the way, who
was that man, Mr. Goldberg, or who was it? A. I don’t
remember his name.
Q. You know that last year your children didn’t come
within the free choice grades? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So you didn’t apply for them? A. That’s right.
Q. And you know that this year the free choice will be
open to all grades? A. That’s right.
Q. There has been no intimidation at all against you, has
there? A. No, sir.
Q. There have been no threats against you, or anything
of that kind, isn’t that right? A. That’s right, there have
—115—
not been any.
Q. And your relations with your landlord and with Mr.
Spencer, who lives on the premises, have been very satis
factory? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And yet in talking to the FBI man you used Mr.
Smithwick’s name, didn’t you, telling him that Mr. Smith-
wick might make you move? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Has Mr. Smithwick ever said anything to you about
making you move? A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. Smithwick is a friend of yours, isn’t he? A. I
think so. I have never talked to him about the school prob
lem.
Q. Why were you afraid he would make you move? A.
For fear of what other people might do to his property.
Q. Afraid of w h a t s o m e b o d y m i g h t d o t o Mr. S m it h w ic k ’s
property? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of George Vance Floyd
351a
Q. There are many, many, colored people in Franklin
County, are there not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the only incidents that you have heard of were
—116—
those to do with James Cheek, Mrs. Irene Arrington, and
Mrs. McKnightf A. No, sir, they are not the only ones I
have heard of.
Q. Who were any others that you have heard o f! A.
Well, I heard about Mr. Ball, that if he didn’t fire one of
his workers.
Q. What Mr. Ball, Mr. M. T. Ball of the Louisburg Mo
tors! A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you hear? A. A man told me that Mr.
Ball, an automobile dealer, was threatened, that his auto
mobile would be messed up if he didn’t fire one of his
workers.
Q. Did you hear Mr. Ball make any such statement?
A. No, sir.
Q. It was just rumor, you didn’t hear Mr. Ball say it?
A. I didn’t hear him say it.
Q. Who was it that you heard say that? A. I can’t think
of his name right now, who told me that.
Q. He was quoting what Mr. Ball had said? A. He was
working with Mr. Ball and he said Mr. Ball said that he
was afraid somebody might mess his automobile up, might
pour ink on his automobile if he didn’t fire him or have him
withdraw his child from the Louisburg school.
—117—
Q. Do you belong to the NAACP? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you been a member? A. Around four
years.
Q- Did you ever attend a meeting out there at Howland’s
Chapel last February or March? A. I guess I did.
Deposition of George Vance Floyd
352a
Q. Did you attend a meeting at that Chapel in 1966 and
hear a man from Washington or Raleigh, or from any
where else, recommend or advise the members present not
to choose the white schools for this coming year! A. No,
sir.
Q. You never heard that stated at any meeting that yon
attended at that chapel! A. No, sir.
Q. Was it discussed, as far as you know, among the
membership that they should not change their children over
to the predominantly white schools this coming year! A.
No, sir.
Q. Now, about the FBI man that yon talked to, do you
know how it came about that he called on you for you to
make a statement! A. Sir!
Q. Did you volunteer to become a witness or make a state
ment in this case! A. Well, they questioned me.
—118—
Q. Who, the FBI, is that who you are talking about! A.
Yes, sir.
Q. But why did the FBI man come to your house to ask
you any questions, do you know. Answer the question if
you can.
Objection, by Mr. Schwelb.
A. I can’t.
Mr. Schwelb: Do you remember what he told you
why he came there to see you!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was that! A. I can’t think of it right now.
The man came there trying to investigate, came there in
vestigating and he chose my name. He showed me my
name and said it was sent the FBI, a letter.
Deposition of George Vance Floyd
353a
Q. Showed you your name to the FBI? A. Chosen my
name.
Q. What was the name of the man? A. I can’t think of
his name now.
Q. Was he a white man or a colored man? A. A col
ored man.
Q. He called on you and asked you if you would make a
statement, said he was trying to get the facts from you?
A. Yes, sir, asked me why I didn’t send my children to
white schools, and asked was I afraid to, and I told him
—1 1 9 -
Yes, I was afraid to.
Q. Think hard and see if you can think of that man’s
name.
Mr. Chambers: Are you referring to the Rev
erend B. B. Felder?
A. I believe so.
Q. Do you know where he came from to come to this
County? A. No, sir, I don’t know where he is from.
Q. About when was that? A. I can’t get it all clear, my
wife has been sick for three or four months and I can’t
think of anything much.
Mr. Yarborough: I am only trying to get the in
formation into the record. I have been told by dif
ferent people that your wife is in a very serious
condition and we are all very sorry about that, and
I am not trying to embarrass you but am just try
ing to get the facts.
A. All right, sir. It was in the spring but I can’t think of
the date it was.
Q. Anyway, a man named B. B. Felder came to see you
Deposition of George Vance Floyd
354a
and asked you if you were afraid or if you were willing
to testify! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that was the first time you ever told anybody
that you were afraid! A. No, sir, that’s not the first time
— 120—
I ever told anybody I was afraid, no, sir.
Q. When did you become afraid! A. Ever since it
started.
Q. Ever since what started! A. Integration.
Q. And yet not a single threat has ever been made against
you! A. No, sir.
Q. Not one threat made against you! A. No.
Q. And no cross war ever burned in front of your house?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you have a telephone? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever received a threatening letter? A. No,
sir.
Q. You are the only colored man within a mile or a mile-
and-a-half of where you live, aren’t you? A. About half
or three-quarters of a mile.
Q. And you have been in that same place for 14 years or
more? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you have never had a cross word with your land
lord, Mr. Smithwick, have you? A. No, sir.
— 121—
Q. And you have never had any harsh words with Mr.
Leon Spencer, either, have you, or the elderly unmarried
lady that lives on the premises, on the same tract of land
you live on, have you? A. No, sir; that’s right.
Q. You are the Reverend Herbert Floyd’s son? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And you are Johnny Lawrence Floyd’s brother? A.
Yes, sir.
Deposition of George Vance Floyd
355a
Q. Now you do know that there were some colored chil
dren that attended previously predominantly white schools
this past year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you know that this past year free choice only
applied to four grades! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you know that for the coming year the Frank
lin Board of Education has chosen to make free choice ap
ply to all grades? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you been attending meetings regularly of the
NAACP for about four years now? A. Not attending the
meetings regular.
Q. And that chapel that we were talking about, Rowland’s
- 122-
Chapel, the one that you said you attended some NAACP
meetings at, is near Rocky Ford in Franklin County? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Has that church ever been bombed as far as you
know? A. No, sir.
Q. Are you a member of that church? A. No, sir.
Q. What church are you a member of? If any. A.
Gethsemane Church.
Q. Your father moved down there and you moved with
him, did you, from Parrish Town to the Gethsemane area?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you still keep your membership down there? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And in your Gethsemane Church there are only col
ored people who are members of your church? A. Yes,
sir.
Q- And it is a Free Will Baptist Church? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know where the Reverend B. B. Felder is
from? A. No, sir, I don’t.
Q. Do you know what church he preaches in? A. No,
sir, I don’t.
Deposition of George Vance Floyd
356a
Q. Do you know why he came to your house1? A. No,
-1 2 3 -
I don’t ; I can’t explain that.
Q. You don’t understand why he came to your house, is
that what you mean by saying you can’t explain it? A.
Yes, sir. I can’t get it clear in my head, so much has been
through my head I can’t get it clear.
Q. Would you say that he had been or has been to every
house occupied by a colored person in that area? A. No,
sir.
Q. He went to your house and skipped some houses as
far as you know, did he? A. I didn’t go with him.
Q. He didn’t go to all of them? A. That’s right.
Q. He said that he had gone to some of them? A. Yes,
sir, he said that.
Q. Do you know why he was in Franklin County in the
spring of 1966?
Mr. Chambers: Do you want us to stipulate why
he was there? We have nothing to hide with respect
to the Reverend Felder.
Q. Do you know the month that he came to your house?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you expecting him to come there or did he come
—124—
there unexpectedly? A. I wasn’t expecting him.
Q. Did he ask you if he might come to your house, before
he came there? A. No, sir.
Q. Was that the first time you ever saw him? When he
appeared there at your house and stated his name. A.
No, sir, that wasn’t the first time I ever saw him.
Q. When was the first time you ever saw him? A. I
can’t get it clear in my head now when it was.
Deposition of George Vance Floyd
357a
Q. Was it at a NAACP meeting that you met him for
the first time? If you recall. A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long was it after that meeting before he came
to your house ? A. I don’t know.
Q. Now, Mr. Floyd, the reason that you fear anything is
because you have heard of what happened to Mrs. Arring
ton, and to Mr. Cheek, and the automobile incident of Mr.
Ball of the Louisburg Motors, and I believe you said they
were the only incidents that you have known about? A.
No, sir, there were others.
Q. I believe you did state that there was one more,
Annabel McKnight? A. I heard about a church being
—125—
bombed in the county.
Q. What church was that? A. I don’t know the name
of it but it was down there near Centerville, heard that
a church had been blown up.
Q. It was just several months ago that you had a chance
to make a choice, along about March of this year, when
you and other people had to make a choice, just this year,
several months ago? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, as to that church you speak of, have you seen
that church? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you know that it was not a regular church but
that it is actually a store building that was being used for
church purposes? A. I don’t know what sort of place it
was. I have never seen it.
Q. So your fear had already come up long before then?
A. I don’t know what time it was now.
Q. But you say that your fear has arisen since integra
tion started? A. Oh, yes.
Q- So from the very beginning and before any of these
things happened, that you say that you have heard of,
Deposition of George Vance Floyd
Deposition of George Vance Floyd
—126—
you were fearful? A. Sir?
Q. Your original fear did not start from any of these
tilings that you have told that you have heard about? A,
It kept building up.
Q. But in the very beginning and before any incidents
happened you were fearful? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were just a little bit afraid back yonder and you
are a little bit more afraid now?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers, To the form.
Mr. Yarborough: He said it was built up, and I
want to know what he means by that.
Q. You said that your fear arose before any of these
incidents happened? A. Yes, sir.
Q. But in spite of your fear you were not only willing to
do so but you volunteered to come into court and testify
that you were afraid your landlord woud make you move,
weren’t so fearful but what you volunteered to come into
open court and tell that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have been a spectator in court before, haven’t
you been in courtrooms before? A. Yes, sir.
—127—
Q. And courtrooms are usually crowded, a large number
of people in them? A. Some of them are.
Q. And they are open to the public? A. Well, some of
them.
Q. Have you ever tried to get into a court that wasn’t
open to the public, a courtroom? A. I know I wasn’t ever
summoned to court.
Q. But I’m asking you this: You never have been barred
from a courtroom, have you? A. No, sir.
359a
Q. You never have been barred from a courtroom dur
ing a court trial, have you? A. No.
Q. Do you know that this court has Ordered another free
choice period for the colored people of Franklin County?
A. Sir?
Q. Did you know that the colored people of Franklin
County will be given another free choice period within a
week or two? A. No, sir.
Q. If and when they are given such a free choice period
what choice will you make ? A. I don’t know. I don’t know
- 1 2 8 -
how it is.
Q. If another free choice period, like the one that was
given you last April, if another such free choice period is
given you what will be your decision? A. I don’t know
about this question.
Q. I am simply asking you this: I f you are given an
other free choice—you know what free choice means, don’t
you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. If you are given another free choice period
to pick the school you want your children to go to, a period
exactly like that one last April, what will be your choice
for your children? A. I don’t understand your question.
Mr. Yarborough: I will withdraw the question,
then.
Q. Now, has anybody ever denied you credit on account
of any actual activity that you have engaged in yourself
regarding civil rights? A. No, sir.
Q- Has anybody ever refused you a job on account of any
such activity? A. I ain’t never applied for nary one.
Q- Now, nobody has made you move from where you are,
Deposition of George Vance Floyd
360a
nor has anybody threatened to make yon move, have they?
A. No, sir.
—129—
Q. Now, have you rented some tobacco acreage for this
year, have you some tobacco other than that which is on
the farm that you are on? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that from a white or colored person? A. Colored.
Q. You went out on the market and rented some tobacco
acreage? A. They did.
Q. Who is “they” ? A. Mr. Smithwick.
Q. He is a white man there on that place? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The people there rented some tobacco acreage for
you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you cultivated it on shares ? A. That’s right.
Q. Your relationship with Mr. Smithwick has been a very
happy one? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have no complaint whatsoever about your busi
ness or personal relationship with Mr. Leon Spencer and
Mr. Robert W. Smithwick? A. That’s right; no, sir.
—130—
Q. You have had a perfect relationship with Mr. Smith-
wick and yet you told the FBI man that your landlord,
and you mentioned Mr. Smithwick’s name, that you were
afraid that your landlord would make you move if you
chose a different school for your children? A. Yes, sir.
Redirect Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. I ask you if you ever intimated that you intended to
send your children to a predominantly white school? A.
No, sir, I have not.
Q. You testified, I believe, that your landlord, if you
sent your children to a formerly all white school, might
be interfered with by white people? A. That’s correct.
Deposition of George Vance Floyd
361a
Q. In conection with, that, do yon believe that the integra
tion of schools is popular or unpopular with the white
people of Franklin County1?
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
Q. I’ll change my question and ask you this: Are the
white people of Franklin County, in your opinion, for in
tegration or against integration, mostly?
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
A. I can’t answer that.
—131—
Q. Do you think the white people of Franklin County are
for or against integration? A. Against it.
Recross Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Can you give me the names of some of the white peo
ple in Franklin County that you say are opposed to inte
gration? A. I don’t know them.
Q. You can’t give me the names of any white people in
the County who are opposed to integration? A. No, sir.
Q. How far do you live from Ingleside? A. I live right
near Trinity Church.
Q. In that Ingleside section most of the white people
send their children to Louisburg to school, or lots of them?
A. That’s right.
Q. And you cannot give me the name here of a single
white person that you believe or think is opposed to inte
gration, can you? A. No, I cannot.
Q. Not by name? A. No, sir.
Q. Can you describe anyone by description or place of
Deposition of George Vance Floyd
362a
Deposition of George Vance Floyd
-1 3 2 -
residence in Franklin County, even if you don’t know the
name or where lie or she lives, that is opposed to integra
tion? A. I don’t know where he lives.
Q. What white people are you talking about when you
say that you believe they are opposed to integration, since
you cannot tell me the name of one, cannot tell me any
one’s name? A. Threats have been made.
Q. Do you know who made any threats? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know whether any such threats were made by
a white man ? A. I don’t know who they were made by.
Q. Do you know where Mrs. Irene Arrington lives? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. How far do you live from her? A. Approximately2
or 2% miles.
Q. Now, you referred to the time that one of those shoot
ing incidents occurred; wasn’t there a liquor still found and
destroyed near her house by law enforcement officers, have
you ever heard of the operators of a liquor still being caught
behind her house, and I ’m not talking about her having
—133—
operated it, but am asking you if you heard about one that
was being operated close to her house about the time of
those alleged shooting incidents? A. No, sir, I never heard
of a still be caught there at all.
Q. You never heard of it being reported, never heard
of that? A. No, sir.
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all I wish to ask the
witness.
Mr. Schwelb: You are excused, Mr. Floyd.
(Witness Excused)
363a
Deposition of John Echols
—13 4—
J o h n E c h o l s , a w i t n e s s f o r t h e p l a i n t i f f s , b e i n g d u l y
sw o rn , d e p o s e s a n d s a y s :
Direct Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Please state your name, and your address, your
residence. A. John Echols, 1126 Main Street, Scotland
Neck, North Carolina.
Q. What is your occupation? A. I own the Western
Auto Associates store in Scotland Neck.
Q. Have you lived in Franklinton, North Carolina fairly
recently! A. Yes, sir, I moved from Franklinton, sold my
business in Franklinton, believe it was the first of April
of 1965, purchased the store in Scotland Neck, moved to
Scotland Neck.
Q. In April of 1965? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In 1964 were you designated Chairman of the Christ
mas parade in Franklinton? A. Yes, sir, I was, and also
in 1962 and 1963. I resigned from being Chairman of the
parade in 1964.
Q. All right. That 1964 parade is the one I am concerned
with. Tell us about that parade and about your Chair
manship of it. A. I believe the parade was approxi-
—135—
mately on the 5th day December or thereabout. I couldn’t
give you the exact date of it because all of that has gone
out of nay mind. But approximately the Sunday or Satur
day night before the parade the window of my store was
either knocked out or shot out, and I found out about it on
Sunday morning; at approximately 9:30 or 10:00 o’clock
I got a telephone call and the caller stated that as to the
parade I had better get the white people in the front of
it, and the caller wanted to know who set up the parade,
364a
and I told him that me and other officials of the parade did
it. Mr. Woodlief, and Mr. Johnson that worked in Leg
gett’s, and I don’t know his first name, and the caller
stated for me to see that the parade would go with the
white people in front “and niggers behind” .
Q. Did he use the word “niggers” ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Go ahead. A. And he said that I was to advise the
merchants to that effect or there would be consequences,
and he hung up the phone, at which time I called the Mayor
and the Chief of Police and told them what was going on,
and the Chief of Police told me, said, “John, don’t resign,”
so I waited until the next morning and handed in my reg-
ignation after the Chief of Police checked and assuted me
that the Ku Klux Klan had nothing to do with the parade;
that was at the time that the Klan was after the Louis-
burg parade and the Franklinton parade. I told him that
if I didn’t resign and if any of the kids got hurt on Main
Street that I would feel like I hadn’t done my duty. So
I resigned and turned the parade over to the Mayor and
the Chief of Police.
Q. The only reference given in that connection was the
reference made to “niggers” ? A. He said the white should
be in front and the “niggers” in back, said I had set up
the parade and I had better change my mind.
Mr. Schwelb: Those are all the questions I have.
Mr. Chambers: I have no questions.
Cross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Echols, you brought your store to Franklinton in
October of 1960, I believe, and you left Franklinton in
April of 1965? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of John Echols
365a
Q. You stayed there, roughly, 4% years! A. Yes, sir.
—137—
Q. And you catered to both white and colored! A. Yes,
sir.
Q. In other words, when a man came into your store in
Franklinton, and it would be the same in Scotland Neck,
if a man came into your store, a customer, being in busi
ness you would greet him hoping to sell him something!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You didn’t make any difference in waiting on any
body, didn’t make any difference between white and
colored! A. That’s right.
Q. You didn’t make any distinction among your cus
tomers! A. No, sir. If a man came in my store and I
had an item marked $5.00 it wouldn’t make any difference
if he was the President of the United States he is going to
pay $5.00.
Q. You got along well with everybody! A. Yes, sir.
In other words, when I left Franklinton my colored cus
tomers came in and would say, “John, why are you leav
ing!” Or, “Mr. Echols, why are you leaving!”
Q. You got along well with them! A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were asked that by a lot of white people too,
weren’t you! A. Yes, sir. There was nothing brought
—138—
np about color.
Q. You headed up the parade for the Merchants Asso
ciation! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the parade went through about like it was set
up! A. Yes, sir it went through just the way it was
lined up.
Q. And you headed up the parade, you were Chairman
of it in 1962, 1963 and 1964! A. That’s right.
Deposition of John Echols
366a
Q. It is a fact, isn’t it, that most of the merchants in
Franklinton are white people! A. Yes, most of them
were operated by white people.
Q. So that it was white people mostly who contributed
to the cost of the parade! A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that there were more merchants who were white
people who were responsible for the parade than mer
chants of stores operated by colored people! A. That’s
right.
Q. There were different kinds of floats in the parade?
A. Yes, sir. We designated a couple of years ago that
there would be four floats for the colored and four floats
for the white.
Q. You have been working with the parade, the Christ
mas parade through the years! A. Yes, sir. I was the
—139-
instigator of the Christmas parade idea. I got the first
parade going.
Q. During 1962 and 1963 the Christmas parade was a
mixed parade, wasn’t it! A. Yes, it was mixed right on,
even the one I resigned from, resigned because I felt it
was for the betterment of the town and people that I
resign.
Q. But in 1962 and 1963 it was mixed! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the parade went off without incident! A. That’s
right, there were no incidents.
Q. And you say in 1964 somebody called you and told
you that you had better put the white ones in front and
the colored ones in the rear of the parade! A. Yes. That
was a crackpot. And I have been advised that the author
ities are on the trail of that man right now and, as I stated
earlier here this morning, when I filled out this paper
I said I would not divulge that man’s name to anyone.
Deposition of John Echols
367a
Q. And you say he was a crackpot? A. I felt he was
a crackpot.
Q. And that was the first complaint or threat that any
body ever made to you? A. Yes, sir.
—140—
Q. And the only one? A. That’s right.
Q. Now, Mr. Echols, you know, of course, that this law
suit here involves the Franklin County Board of Educa
tion, you know that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you don’t say, I suppose, that the Franklin
County Board of Education had anything whatsoever to do
with that threat about the parade, do you? A. The man
that threatened me I have been told is not a merchant
and he is not a member of any Board or a member of any
police enforcement body.
Q. I would like for you to answer my question directly,
however. Nobody on the Franklin County Board of Edu
cation had anything to do with that telephone call, did
they, that you know of? A. No, sir.
Q. No mention of schools was made in that conversation?
A. No, sir.
Q. And Franklinton has its own school system, a part of
the Franklin County School System? A. That’s right.
Q. And it is complete and separate? A. That’s cor
rect, sir.
—141—
Q. Mr. Echols, in 1964 you were the Chairman of the
Christmas parade in Franklinton, were you? A. That’s
correct.
Q. And you resigned as chairman of it before the parade
took place? A. Yes, I resigned. My family went to the
parade but I stayed at the house because, as I stated here
Deposition of John Echols
368a
before, I felt like it was for the protection of the town
that I resign.
Q. Did the parade take place without any incidents?
A. Yes, it took place without incident but it didn’t run
as smoothly as it did before.
Q. Was what was due to, that it did not run as smoothly?
A. It was due to the lack of knowledge of the people run
ning the parade, they just didn’t know the procedure
to make it smooth.
Q. But there was no racial trouble at all? A. No, sir.
Q. And the parade went along in full swing? A. The
only thing that was pulled out of the parade, that I know
of, was my truck; everybody else stayed in the parade,
as far as I know, and I would say it went off as it was
set up.
Q. You got that phone call from that man about the
—142-
parade and also a plate glass window was broken or shot
out of the front of your store, as you say, and you just
became disgusted and quit, didn’t you? A. I thought it
would be to the best interest of the town and the merchants
for me to resign.
Q. You did quit? A. Yes, I quit. But, as I said, I didn’t
want any of the kids to get hurt. Suppose your kid had
got hurt during the parade, suppose I hadn’t quit and your
kid had got hurt and you found out later about this, that
I hadn’t let you know about it, then afterward you would
have said to me “John, you Avere a sorry civic official”
Q. Mr. Echols, you stayed in business in Franklinton
from then until you sold out in April of 1965? A. Yes,
Deposition of John Echols
sir.
369a
Q. You were in business there until about 4 months later,
four months after the parade? A. Yes, sir. And the rea
son I sold the store and moved to Scotland Neck is because
Scotland Neck is approximately three times as big as
Franklinton and my business in Scotland Neck is approxi
mately three times as big as it was in Franklinton.
Q. And you moved from Franklinton voluntarily when
you moved to Scotland Neck? A. Yes, sir.
—143—
Q. Do you remember about what it cost to put on such a
parade as that one in Franklinton? A. It cost between
$800.00 and $900.00 to run that parade.
Redirect Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Mr. Echols, this reprint of an article that appeared
in the Franklin Times under date of 12/8/64 headed
“Franklinton Parade Still On, Threatened Chairman Re
signs, you read that at the time, did you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. This article dealt with the parade and your resigna
tion as Chairman, did it not? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schwelb: I offer in evidence as Government
Exhibit No. 1 in this deposition this article which
appeared in the Franklin Times under date of
12/8/64. You are excused, Mr. Echols.
(Witness excused)
Deposition of John Echols
370a
Deposition of J. W. Champion
—144—
J. W. C h a m p i o n , a w i t n e s s f o r t h e p l a i n t i f f s , b e i n g d u ly
s w o r n , d e p o s e s a n d s a y s :
Direct Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Please state yonr name and place of residence. A.
J. W. Champion, Route 4, Louisburg, North Carolina.
Q. You are the Sheriff of Franklin County? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. How long have you been Sheriff of Franklin County?
A. This makes eight years.
Q. I believe it is correct, isn’t it, that you were defeated
for reelection recently? A. That’s true, yes.
Q. I want to ask you if you investigated certain incidents
of violence, certain related incidents in Franklin County
which have allegedly happened over the past year or two.
A. All right, sir.
Q. Did you investigate these incidents occurring in
Franklin County? A. Some of them I did, and some of
them I didn’t.
Q. Did you investigate the shootings at the home of
Mrs. Irene Arrington? A. I investigated the last shooting
there.
Q. Were any arrests made as a result of that investiga
tion? A. No, sir.
— 145—
Q. Did you investigate the shooting at the home of
Sanford Johnson? A. I did.
Q. Were any arrests made in connection with that shoot
ing? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you investigate a cross-burning in front of or
near the home of the Reverend Luther Coppedge? A.
Yes, I investigated that.
371a
Q. Was any arrest made in connection with, that! A.
No, sir.
Q. I understand that you did not investigate the incident
of the alleged putting of sugar in the tractor of the
Reverend Mr. Coppedge. A. That’s right, I did not in
vestigate that.
Q. Did you investigate the alleged putting of kerosene
oil in the well of the Reverend Dunston ? A. I did.
Q. Was any arrest made in connection with that! A.
There was not.
Q. Did you investigate the matter of three people coming
in a truck into the driveway of the Reverend Dunston’s
home and allegedly threatening to kill somebody and
allegedly throwing tacks in his front yard and in his drive
way! A. I did.
—146—
Q. Was anybody arrested as a result of that investiga
tion! A. No, sir.
Q. Did you investigate the throwing of rocks at or into
the home of the Reverend Massenburg! A. Yes, I in
vestigated that.
Q. Were any arrests made as a result of that incident!
A. There were not.
Q. I ask you if you investigated the leaving of a threaten
ing note for James Crudup! A. No, sir.
Q. Did your office, anyone from your office investigate it?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Did you participate in the investigation of the destruc
tion of a church which the Reverend Plummer Alston was
the pastor and which church was called the Redbud
Church? A. I did.
Q. Did any arrests result from that? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you investigate the throwing of an explosive
Deposition of J. W. Champion
372a
Deposition of J. W. Champion
device in the vicinity of the home of James Anderson!
A. I did.
—147-
Q. Did any arrest occnr as a result of that investigation?
A. No.
Q. Did you investigate the throwing of tacks at the home
of a man named Wortham or the putting of any substance
into his well! A. Yes, I did.
Q. Was any arrest made as a result of that investigation!
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you investigate the burning of a cross near the
home of Booker T. Driver? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you investigate the shooting into the home of
Sanday Jones who is the father of Mrs. Irene Arrington!
A. I did.
Q. Were any arrests made as a result of that investiga
tion! A. There were not any made.
Q. Now, in connection with the shooting into the home
of Sanford Johnson did you also investigate a like shoot
ing in the vicinity of Sanford Johnson’s home? A. I did.
Q. Whose home was that? A. I investigated the shoot
ing into the home of Sanford Johnson.
Q. Didn’t you investigate also a shooting into a home
—148—
which was about two houses away from there, which
missed? A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did the Federal Bureau of Investigation participate
in some of these investigations? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did the State Bureau of Investigation participate ffl
some of these investigations? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you say the law enforcement agencies investi
gating these incidents did their best in trying to apprehend
the culprits? A. Yes.
373a
Q. Including the FBI? A. They certainly should have.
Q. You do not doubt that and as far as you know they
did? A. Yes, sir.
Direct Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Sheriff Champion, in connection with these various in
cidents that you say you investigated were you ever able-
to determine the purpose of any of these incidents? A. I
was not.
Cross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough-.
Q. Sheriff, in any of these incidents reported to you did
any of those people who reported them give you any idea
- 1 4 9 -
how or why the shots were fired? A. Well, after I traced
down two men in a truck I found out there wasn’t anything
to it. He just gave the license number of the truck and
I went into that and found that he was looking for another
house, had started to turn in to this house, was working
on a pump down the road about half-a-mile away and
started to turn into this house and backed up and wrent
on down the road, so that was the only incident.
Q. Did any of these people follow through in any way
whatsoever, giving you the name of any person? A. One
of them did.
Q. Who did that person say he thought it was? A. He
turned in the license number of the car, they followed
after it, the one to do with the throwing of the kerosene
in the well.
Q. Who was that, if you are at liberty to say. A. One
of them was M. C. Wilder.
Q- He is now dead? A. Yes, sir. And there was the
Deposition of J. W. Champion
374a
Chase boy that worked at the Allen Oil Company, it was
his car. And Babiy (?) Land.
Q. Did any of those people during your investigation
disclose the reason why, if they did, they did it? A. They
denied it, denied doing it, said they didn’t do it. At that
time a car was reported stolen and they claimed they
—150—
didn’t know anything about it, about the throwing of the
oil in the well.
Q. Were any of those people, as far as you know, con
nected in any way with the Franklin County Board of
Education? A. No, sir.
Q. Now, M. C. Wilder, he runs stores in Louisburg and
Bunn? A. That’s right.
Q. And the Mr. Chase (?) that you mentioned, he worked
for an oil company as a truck driver? A. Yes, sir, he was
a pump installer.
Q. And Babiy Land, what did he do? A. He worked
at the U. S. C. S. office.
Q. The IT. S. C. S. office is an agency of the United
States Government? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, Sheriff, with those two exceptions, all of these
things were committed, as far as you know, by unknown
people and for unknown reasons ? A. That’s right.
Q. Now, there was a man named Ball, some involvement
about a truck? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And as to the Bedbud Church, that is a store build
ing, was an old store building and was being used as a
church? A. That’s right.
—151—
Q. It wasn’t constructed as a church? A. No, sir.
Q. How long was it after that church was allegedly de
stroyed before it was reported to you? A. Well, it was
Deposition of J . W. Champion
375a
destroyed on that Friday night and some people said it was
aronnd 8 :00 o’clock. I got a report of it at 5 :00 o’clock the
next day, on Saturday evening.
Q. It was some 21 hours or more later when it was re
ported to your office, approximately that much later after
it happened! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there some disclosed discrepancy between the
times given by people who live on either side of it! A. Yes,
sir.
Q. You never were able to determine whether it was
dynamited or what happened to it! A. I wasn’t able to
find out, but I don’t think it was dynamite; I couldn’t tell
what it was. There was a storm that came up about that
time and I don’t know whether lightening struck it or what
happened to it but there was a hole knocked in the cement
floor about this big (indicating), right inside of the window,
but I didn’t find any fragments of dynamite or either a fuse.
—152—
Q. You do know that the Reverend Austin was the pastor
of that church! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know whether or not the communicants of his
church solicited funds for the rebuilding of that church
from both the white and colored people of the community!
A. Yes.
Q. Funds were solicited from both races! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And so far as you know in regard to the result from
the solicitation of those funds by those colored people from
white people no incidents occurred following that solicita
tion, that you know o f! A. That’s right, there were no
incidents in connection with that.
Q. You do know that some white people of the community
did contribute, don’t you! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know whether or not the church has been re
built! A. No, I don’t know.
Deposition of J. W. Champion
376a
Q. You talked to the Reverend Austin, did you? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. State whether or not he gave you any reason why he
thought it had been done. A. He said he couldn’t give us
- 1 5 3 -
any reason at all.
Q. Did your investigation disclose, or did the Reverend
Austin tell you that that church is attended solely by people
of the colored race? A. Yes, sir, it is attended only by
colored people.
Q. State whether or not as to every complaint about
these incidents that were made to you, reports to you of
any of these crimes or any other crimes connected with civil
rights or anything else, whether or not in each instance you
made a full investigation within your power and ability
with the facilities available to you. A. I did, yes.
Q. State whether or not the FBI and SBI frequently
worked with you? A. Yes, they would come there every
once in awhile and work with me.
Q. State whether or not out of all these complaints and
reports made to you, if any one of them reporting com
plained about or accused anybody who was a member of
the Franklin County School Board, or anybody who worked
with the Board, participated in any of these incidents re
ported to you. A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever heard any report from any source that
any member of the Franklin County Board of Education or
any officer or agent or representative of the Board ever
—154—
participated in or encouraged any unlawful act affecting
any civil rights? A. No, sir, I have not.
Q. Have you ever had any complaint or heard of any
act of any member or representative of the Board of Edu
cation of Franklin County, any criminal act by any member
of the Board or any representative or agent of the Board
Deposition of J. W. Champion
377a
in connection with the integration of the schools? A. No,
sir.
Redirect Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Sheriff, how long did you say you have been Sheriff
of Franklin County? A. This would make eight years.
Q. You are an experienced law investigator? A. Well,
I have done the best I could along that line.
Q. And you think the SBI and the FBI have done the
best they could in the investigation of these incidents? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you mentioned that one of the complaints in
volved a truck and that you investigated it and that you
found there was not anything to it, the incident at Beverend
— 1541/ 2—
Dunton’s home? A. I might have said that.
Q. So you say, categorically, that you “ found out there
wasn’t anything to it?” A. Well, we didn’t find enough
evidence. The FBI man, Mr. Lynn Hardin, and myself
were out there, and after we made our investigation we
told the Beverend Dunston that w didn’t think we had
enough evidence to indict these boys, but I told him that if
he wanted to indict them anyway we would serve the war
rants on them, but he never did.
Q. Now, if the story told you by the Geddie children and
the Dunn boy was correct and the story told you by the
people in the truck was incorrect would you then have
had enough evidence to indict them, in your opinion? A.
Well, they told me that they just pulled up in the drive
way and turned around and went on.
Q. That is what the people who were in the truck told
you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what did the Geddie children and the Dunn child
Deposition of J. W. Champion
378a
tell you? A . The children there told me that the truck
drove up in the driveway and one of them said, “ Tell him
we’re going to get him” , and that was all.
Q. Didn’t Virginia Macon also tell you something along
the same lines, about the same thing? A. I don’t know
—155—
about that one.
Q. Anyway, if what the Geddie children said was trne
and what the Dunn boy said was true, there was an actual
threat, wasn’t there? A. If it was true it would be a
threat.
Q. You didn’t believe them? A. Well, the others said
they didn’t do it and I believed the others just as quick or
quicker than I would the children.
Q. Wasn’t it three or four against two? A. Well, the
men in the truck said they didn’t do it, and I told the
Reverend Mr. Dunston that if he wanted to get out warrants
we would serve them.
Recross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Did the Reverend Dunston take out a warrant? A.
No, sir.
Redirect Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Sheriff, did you investigate any incidents recently of
cross-burnings in Louisburg? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know anything about those incidents of cross
burning? A. I heard about them.
Q. Do you know where those incidents occurred? A. 1
—156—
believe I heard that one of them was in Louisburg and two
in Franklinton.
Q. Isn’t it a fact that there were five such incidents
in Franklin County during July? A. Last week, you
mean?
Deposition of J. W. Champion
379a
Q. Or week before last, yes. A. Three is all I heard of.
Q. Where was the one that occurred in Louisburg?
A. I heard it was at the Educational Building, that is what
they said, and I am just telling you what they said.
Further Redirect Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Did you hear about the cross-burning at the Reverend
Latham’s house, a white minister who has been there about
ten years! A. No, sir.
Q. Did you hear about a cross-burning at the Reverend
Robert Wood’s! A. No, sir, I did not.
Further Redirect Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. With respect to the parties inquired about here where
incidents occurred, weren’t all those people active in civil
rights activity in Franklin County! A. WHio!
—157—
Q. Well, wasn’t the Reverend Coppedge active in civil
rights matters! A. I don’t know.
Q. Wasn’t Sanford Johnson engaged in civil rights ac
tivity! A. I don’t know.
Q. Wasn’t the Reverend Massenburg active in civil rights
activities! A. I don’t know.
Q. How about James Crudup! A. I don’t know.
Q. Wasn’t Mrs. Irene Arrington active in civil rights
matters! A. I don’t know.
Q. Wasn’t the Reverend Dunston engaged in civil rights
activity! A. I don’t know.
Q. How about Booker T. Driver, was he active in civil
rights matters! A. I don’t know.
Mr. Chambers: They are all the questions I have.
Mr. Schwelb: You are excused, Sheriff Champion.
(Witness Excused)
Deposition of J. W. Champion
380a
J e a n C a r o l S a t t e r w h i t e , being first duly sworn, deposes
and says:
Direct Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. I want you to tell us your name, address and your
race. A. My name is Jean Carol Satterwhite. My address
is Box 117, Bunn, North Carolina. My race is Negro.
Q. Jean, how old are you! A. Seventeen.
Q. What is your occupation! A. Going to school.
Q. Is Mrs. Annie Satterwhite your mother! A. Yes.
Q. And your father, his name is what! A. Henry Sat
terwhite.
Q. And are you family plaintiffs in this suit against
The Franklin County Board of Education! A. Yes.
Q. What kind of average do you have in your school!
A. About a B average.
Q. And what school have you been going to up until now!
A. Gethsemane.
Q. Now, Jean Carol, did you or your parents make an
application for you and your brother to attend a school
for this last year different from the one you attended! A
Yes.
—5-
Q. What school was that, please! A. To Bunn.
Q. Where do you want to go, to Bunn or to Gethsemane!
A. To Bunn.
Q. Tell us something about why you wanted to go
Bunn, rather than to Gethsemane, please. A. I wanted
to go to Bunn because they offer typing, shorthand and
chemistry, bookkeeping and other subjects that G ethsem ane
don’t offer, and because whenever I get out of school so
I wouldn’t have to do extra work to be up with my class.
Deposition of Jean Carol Satterwhite
— 3—
381a
Q. What do yon mean by extra work! Who is having
to do extra work that you know about? A. I had an aunt
who had to do an extra year.
Q. An aunt? A. Yes.
Q. And did she go to a predominantly white or pre
dominantly Negro school? A. She went to a Negro school.
Q. Now, Jean, you mentioned you wanted to take sub
jects at Bunn not offered at Gethsemane. You were in a
grade that had to apply for a lateral transfer last year?
A. Yes.
— 6 —
Q. Now, at the time when you and your family received
the application for lateral transfer, do you remember any
body telling you or sending you any word what the criteria
would be for having your lateral transfer accepted? A.
No.
Q. Did you know at that time that one of the criteria
was to take a course that was not accepted at Gethsemane?
A. No.
Q. If you had known that, would you have put that in
the application? A. Yes.
Q. Now, you mentioned some of the things they had at
Bunn that you wanted to participate in. Can you tell us
a little hit about Gethsemane, and any comments you had
about the situations there that you may or may not be
satisfied with? A. Well, one in particular is the students
have to sell sandwiches during class. They are brought
out of class to make sandwiches to sell during lunch hour.
—7—
Q. Where did you eat those sandwiches? A. They usu-
a% go to the classroom.
Q. Don’t they have a lunchroom? A. No.
Q- At Gethsemane they don’t have a lunchroom? A. No.
Deposition of Jean Carol Satterwhite
382a
Q. Now, let me ask you this, Jean Carol: Approximately,
and I know you can’t remember this exactly, how many
children were in your ninth-grade class at Gethsemane!
A. There were approximately between forty-five and fifty-
two.
Q. This is your best recollection! You don’t know ex
actly! A. Yes.
Q. And does that number have to sit together in the
classroom at the same time in some courses! A. Yes.
Q. Which is nearer to your home, Jean Carol, Bunn or
Gethsemane! A. Bunn.
Q. Now, Jean Carol, has anybody threatened you at all
in connection with trying to go to the Bunn School! A.
No.
- 8-
Q. Apart from threats now, let me ask you this: The
people in Bunn to you, are they as friendly as they were
previously! A. No.
Q. Some of the white people! A. No.
Q. Can you give me some examples of that! A. Well,
in the grocery stores, the clerks, they have changed, and
where before we put in application we would go in, they
would have something to joke about, and now since we
put in the application, you go in and they turn around,
as if they don’t want to wait on you.
Q. Do you feel among the white people that you know
in Bunn that they welcome you to attempt to attend the
Bunn School! A. No.
Q. Now, did you have to serve sandwiches or prepare
sandwiches sometimes when you were attending Getli-
semane! A. Yes.
Deposition of Jean Carol Satterwhite
i
383a
Q. Now, what kind of time would that he done in! Would
that be done during your free period, or when! A. Dur-
— 9 —
ing this year it was in my geometry class.
Q. Did you have to do that several times! A. Yes.
Sometimes two or three times a month.
Q. Did all the children have to do it! A. Yes.
Q. Now, did your little brother attend the first grade at
Bunn last year! A. Yes.
Q. Did you sometimes walk him to school! A. Yes.
Q. On most instances were there any incidents involv
ing that! A. No.
Q. Can you remember any incident that sticks out in
your mind in connection with that! A. One. One morn
ing we walked, and we were coming on back. My brother
was behind me, and this car came on up, and about when
it got to where I was, it ducked out at me.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. It did what! A. It ducked out at me.
By Mr. Schwelb:
Q. What do you mean by “ducking out” , Jean Carol!
— 10-
Swerve! A. Yes. It came out of the direction it was
going. It was going straight up and when it got about to
where I was, it came out.
Q. What was your impression that he was trying to do!
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form.
A. Well, I thought he was either trying to hit me. or he
was playing one.
Deposition of Jean Carol Satterwhite
384a
Deposition of Jean Carol Satterwhite
By Mr, Schwelb:
Q. Did it frighten yon a little! A. Yes.
Q. Now, do you have friends in your class that you have
discussed transferring to Bunn with! A. On occasion, no.
Q. A great many of them stay in Gethsemane! A. All
of them.
Q. Have they ever told you why!
Mr. Tucker: We object.
A. They just say they don’t want to go.
By Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Have they ever told you why they don’t want to go!
A. No.
Q. Do you think it is generally known that Bunn has
a lunchroom at Bunn! A. Yes.
— 11-
Q. And that it has courses not offered at Gethsemane!
A. Yes.
Q. And they still want to go to Gethsemane! A. Yes.
Q. Do you have an opinion as to why your friends don’t
want to go to Bunn, even though it has better courses
and lunchroom!
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
Mr. Tucker : We object to the form.
By Mr. Schwelb:
Q. You can answer it. A. I think one reason is they
have never been to another school. They have been there,
and all their friends are there, and they had just rather
stay there at Gethsemane.
Q. Do you know Mr. Booker Driver! A. Yes.
385a
Deposition of Jean Carol Satterwhite
Q. Do you know any incident that happened at his house!
A. I have heard about an incident.
Q. What have you heard! A. I heard that once some
people started to burn a cross in his yard, and before they
could get in his yard the dog barked, and that ran them
away.
— 12—
Q. Have you heard of any other incidents involving
people who have been trying to send their children to
white schools! A. Yes.
Q. What other incidents have you heard of! A. At the
Coppedges, I heard they burnt some crosses there and
put tacks in his yard.
Q. Have you heard of any others! A. I don’t think so.
Q. Have you heard of any shooting! A. I don’t think so.
Q. Do you think the incidents at Reverend Coppedge’s
house and Mr. Driver’s house relate to the, well, are they
well known in the Bunn area! A. I don’t think so.
Mr. Schwelb: No further questions.
Direct Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Were you in any organization at Gethsemane! A.
Yes.
Q. What organization were you in! A. I was in the
glee club, and I kept scores for the basketball team.
Q. Did you belong to the Homemakers of America! A.
- 1 3 -
No. They don’t have a club.
Q- Do they have a 4-H Club there! A. No. The com
munity has a 4-H Club.
Q. Are you a member of the 4-H Club in the Community!
A. Yes.
386a
Q. Is this 4-H Club made up generally of your students?
A. Yes.
Q. From your school? A. From right around in the
community.
Q. Do all of these attend school! A. Yes.
Q. Members of the 4-H Club? A. (Nods affirmatively).
Q. How are the 4-H Club members selected or recruited!
A. When they get nine, they are able to join them.
Q. They are not connected with the school? A. No.
Q. You say you were the scorekeeper for the basketball
team? A. Yes.
Q. Did your basketball team play Louisburg High
School? A. Yes. No, Riverside.
Q. Did you play any white school or predominantly white
school in Franklin County? A. No.
—14-
Q. Did you play anywhere else? A. No.
Q. Did you ever go to any of the football games? A.
No.
Q. Of your high school? A. We don’t have a football
team.
Q. You didn’t have a football team? A. No.
Q. Did you have a basketball team? A. Yes.
Q. I mean a baseball team? A. They started one in
the spring.
Q. Did you go to any of the games? A. But they haven’t
been off to play anyone. Just playing against themselves,
Q. Among themselves there at the school? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have a library there at Gfethsemane? A
Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever go through it? A. Sometimes.
Q. Do you know how many books they have there? A
No.
Deposition of Jean Carol Satterwhite
387a
Deposition of Jean Carol Satterwhite
—15—
Q. Did you have a Future Farmers of America there
at the school? A. No.
Q. Did you have a vocational school there at Geth-
semane? A. Vocational?
Q. Did you teach agriculture? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you teach home economics? A. Yes, sir.
Q. But you didn’t have a Future Farmers of America
there? A. No.
Q. Did you at any time while at Gethsemane participate
in an activity in which quite a few of the students were
involved? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you have distributive education at your school?
A. What do you mean?
Q. You don’t know what that is?
(Discussion off record)
A. No, we didn’t have that.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. You didn’t have that? A. No.
—16—
Mr. Chambers: No further questions.
Cross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Jean Carol, your father is named Henry M. Satter
white, is he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And who is Alvie Mae Satterwhite? A. That is my
daddy’s sister.
Q. Your aunt? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is she the one you are talking about that had to take
extra courses somewhere? A. No.
Q. Now, this Alvie Mae Satterwhite did go to Bunn this
past year, didn’t she? A. Yes.
Q. She was in the twelfth grade this past year? A. Yes.
388a
Deposition of Jean Carol Satterwhite
Q. Did she graduate? A. Yes.
Q. You this past year were in the eleventh grade! A.
Yes.
Q. You have one more year in school! A. Yes.
—17-|
Q. I believe you did go with your aunt, Alvie Mae Satter
white, on the Washington trip by the Bunn High School,
didn’t you? A. It was to New York.
Q. To New York? A. Yes.
Q. You and your aunt. You were not a student at Bunn?
A. No.
Q. And they had a senior trip? That is what it was,
isn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. So you did participate in the trip? You are not a
senior at Bunn and not attending school, but you did go
on a bus trip to New York about two or three months ago!
A. Yes.
Q. To New York? A. Yes.
Q. How many went on the trip? A. I think there were
eight-three.
Q. Eighty-three? A. Yes, sir.
Q. They were all white school children, but you and
— 18—
your aunt, Alvie Mae Satterwhite? A. No, they were not
all school children.
Q. All white, anyway? A. Yes.
Q. And the only two colored children on there were yon
and your aunt? A. Yes.
Q. So you did go on one trip with white people, even
though you are not a member of that school, didn’t you?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, the Bunn High School doesn’t have a football
team, either, does it? A. I don’t know.
389a
Q. I beg your pardon? A. I don’t know.
Q. Have you ever beard your aunt say whether it had
a football team or not? A. No.
(Discussion off record)
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Now, you say something about not joining and not
belonging to some kind of farmers’ club, farm club. Your
father is a carpenter, isn’t he? A. Yes.
—19—
Q. And your mother is a domestic or housewife? A.
Yes.
Q. And so you do not live on a farm, do you? A. No.
Q. You live in, what is it—New Bunn or Bunn Annex,
or real close to the city or town of Bunn? A. We live in
Bunn City Limits.
Q. You live inside of Bunn? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So now, I want to ask you, you say you have never
received any threats of any kind? A. No, sir.
Q. Now, I want you, you say that white people have
been unfriendly and that you have been made unwelcome
in stores. Bunn is a small town, isn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. And you know most of the people that work in the
stores, don’t you? A. Yes.
Q. Give me the names, please, of those clerks or owners
of the stores that have been unfriendly to you, made you
appear unwelcome. Give me their names. A. Mutt Win
stead.
— 20—
Q. He works in Mr. Wayne Winstead’s store, doesn’t he?
A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Jean Carol Satterwhite
390a
Q. And who else? A. I don’t know Ms name. I know
what they call him. They call him by nickname. Hambone
Pearce.
Q. Where does he work? A. He works in Mr. Wayne.
Q. Mr. Wayne Winstead’s store? A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Now, who else? A. Well, that’s about all.
Q. What’s that? A. I say I think that’s about all. Be
cause they don’t have too many clerks in there.
Q. There are other stores in Bunn, of course? A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Edwards has a store? A. He don’t act that
way.
Q. And several other stores in Bunn? A. Yes.
Q. The drug store and other places? A. (Nods affirm
atively).
Q. Now, who else has changed, except Mr. Mutt Win
stead and Mr. Hambone Pearce in stores that you go into!
A. I think that’s all.
Q. Just those two? Now, you say there are unfriendly
white people. Can you name anyone else that have been
unfriendly, that you believe have been unfriendly to you
as a result of from your applying for the Bunn School!
I ’d like to have their names. A. I can’t think of anybody.
Q. You know everybody in Bunn, don’t you? Both white
and colored? A. No. I don’t know everybody.
Q. Well, a great many? A. I know a great many.
Q. The whole town has only three or four hundred people,
doesn’t it? A. I don’t know.
Q. You don’t know the population of the town in which
you live? A. No, I don’t.
Q. Now, on this car, you say you were walking with your
brother to school and the car ducked out? Who was that
— 22-
man ? A. Well, I don’t know his name, hut he was a senior
at Bunn this year.
Deposition of Jean Carol Satterwhite
391a
Deposition of Jean Carol Satterwhite
Q. This past year? A. Yes.
Q. Well, it was a boy, then, instead of a man? A. Yes.
It was a boy.
Q. Did you ever ask your aunt, Alvie Mae? She was a
senior, too. To find out who he was, or his name? A. No.
I came in home, and I told my mother, and she called Mr.
Kelly, and he said he would look into it.
Q. Mr. Kelly is the principal of the school? A. Of Bunn.
Q. Of Bunn School, and your mother reported it to him,
and he said he would look into it. That boy that ducked
out to you, did he go on the senior trip? A. Yes.
Q. You were on the same bus with him, weren’t you?
On the same trip with him, anyhow? A. Yes.
Q. And you didn’t ask Aunt Alvie Mae who he was ? A.
Not in my remembrance I didn’t.
Q. And did he do anything to you on the trip? A. No.
—23—
Q. Did anybody else? A. No.
Q. You enjoyed your trip, didn’t you? A. It was O.K.
Q. Well, what was the matter with it, if anything? A.
There wasn’t anything the matter with the trip.
Q. Nothing the matter with the trip. And you were tak
ing at Gethsemane home economics? A. Yes.
Q. And that has to do, a considerable part of that is
cooking and serving and so forth, isn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. They teach you to cook and make sandwiches and
other things, don’t they? A. Yes, to cook, that is, instead
of making sandwiches.
Q- You did make some in practice in home economics,
didn’t you? A. No. We didn’t cook this year.
Q- What was it? A. We took some and had a lesson
out of the book.
Q- You took French at Bunn, didn’t you? A. At Geth
semane?
392a
Deposition of Jean Carol Satterwhite
—24—
Q. At Gethsemane. I beg your pardon. You took French
there, didn’t you! A. Yes.
Q. Took geometry! A. Yes.
Q. English! A. Yes.
Q. United States History! A. Yes.
Q. And now, you knew your aunt graduated at Bunn!
You went to the graduating exercises! A. Yes, sir.
Q. You saw her take the stand, just like the other
students, walked up on the stage and got her diploma! A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And there were quite a few colored people there at
the graduation? A. Yes.
Q. And you sat where you wanted to! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the colored people went into the auditorium,
and it was pretty full, wasn’t it! A. I don’t know. I didn’t
go in when the rest of them went in. I stayed out. I had
—25-
to take some pictures.
Q . When you went in, you took a seat where you wanted
one! A. I took one where there was one. All the other
seats were filled up. I took one at the backend.
Q. That was because the others were filled! A. Yes.
Q. You saw other colored people spotted about in the
auditorium? A. No, sir. They were not spotted about.
The ushers sat them together.
Q. Did you hear anybody complain about how they
wanted to sit? A. No.
Q. And so they were evidently satisfied with where they
sat; that’s right, isn’t it? A. I guess so.
Q. Who was the usher? Do you know? A. No. I don’t
know any of the ushers.
393a
Q. Don’t you know that at Bunn it has a reserved sec
tion for the families of the graduates, and they all sit
together, and the ushers carry those families to those
—2 6 -
special sections? A. All the parents sit together.
Q. That’s right. Of the families. Not necessarily the
parents, but the families, isn’t that the ordinary practice?
They sit together in a special section? A. The family
members of the graduates.
Q. That’s right. Do you know that they are customarily
carried to a special reserved section for them? A. No,
I don’t know it.
Q. You don’t say it is not so, though, do you? A. No.
Q. Did you know any other graduates, except your aunt?
A. Did I know any others?
Q. Any other students that graduated at Bunn? A. I
knew a few of them.
Q. Did you see their families there at graduation? A.
No. I can’t remember. Because if I saw them, I don’t
remember.
Q. Well, if you don’t remember, please state so. A. (No
answer).
Q. Now, you were taking French at Gethsemane, and
you came up to Louisburg sometime in February or March,
didn’t you? A. Yes.
—27—
Q. Where they had a meeting in the courthouse? A.
Yes.
Q. And were you there? A. Yes.
Q. And your father, or your mother, or both, signed at
that time for you to transfer about the middle of the year,
didn’t they? A. Yes.
Deposition of Jean Carol Satterwhite
394a
Q. And you knew if you transferred, you would have
to drop French, because they did not teach it at Bunn?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew that? A. No. I didn’t know it then. I
went to see Mr. Cannon that evening after we left the
meeting.
Q. And found out you couldn’t take French? A. Yes.
Q. Did you tell your people to change that decision!
A. No.
Q. Did you not tell them? You told them that, didn’t you!
A. Told who?
Q. Your people, your father or mother, or both? A.
My mother.
—28-
Q. She found out that if you transferred in the middle
of the year, you would have to drop your French course!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And those courses that you say you wanted to take
at Bunn, which were not offered at Gfethsemane, you named
several. Did Mr. Kelly tell you you could enter them in
the middle of the year to make a passing grade? A. No;
I didn’t ask him about it.
Q. So, if you had transferred in the middle of the year,
and you say one of your reasons was to take courses which
you could not get at Gethsemane, you didn’t inquire whether
you could pick up a half credit? A. No. Mr. Finks told
me—
Q. (Interposing): Now, he is a government lawyer,
isn’t he? A. Yes, sir. Told me to go to the white school
and find out how they were, how far they were in front
of us and to compare it and see whether I could make the
adjustment.
Q. Did you do that? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Jean Carol Satterwhite
395a
Deposition, of Jean Carol Satterwhite
—29—
Q. That was after your father or mother or you had
signed up to change anyhow, wasn’t it! A. Yes.
Q. Even though before you found out whether or not
you could make the adjustment, they signed up to change
anyhow? That’s right, isn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. Did you know that it was against the school rules
for students to serve anything during a class period, such
as sandwiches? A. No.
Q. Did you know that Mr. Dodd, he’s your principal,
isn’t he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He violated the rule of the school board when he
took you out of your geometry class to serve sandwiches?
A. No.
Q. You didn’t know? Well, Mr. Dodd is the principal of
Gethsemane, isn’t he? A. Yes.
Q. What class was it that you say had how many in it?
A. Repeat the question, please?
—30—
Q. You said a while ago some class had a large number
of pupils in it. What class was that? A. That was in my
ninth grade class.
Q. In your ninth grade class they had what? A. Forty-
five to fifty-two of us.
Q. Twenty-five to fifty-two? A. From forty-five to fifty-
two.
Q. That was several years ago? A. No, that was in
the ninth grade.
Q- You have finished the eleventh now, so it has been
three years ago? A. It’s been two since I was in the
ninth grade.
Q- You have finished the eleventh. And you have been
to Gethsemane so far all of your school year and have
396a
Deposition of Jean Carol Satterwhite
made a B average or better, and been a good student,
haven’t yon? A. I think it’s about a B.
Q. It is a B average, and yon have learned right well,
haven’t yon? A. Sir?
Q. You have made good marks and have learned a right
much, haven’t yon? A. I think so.
Mr. Yarborough:
tions.
Well, we have no further ques-
-3 1 -
Mr. Schwelb: I have no further questions.
Redirect Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. How many Negro students were in Bunn? A. Three.
Q. Do you know whether they were seniors? A. There
was one senior and two in the first grade.
Q. The Negroes that you saw at the graduation cere
mony were all members of the family of your aunt? A,
No. All of them wasn’t members.
Q. O.K.
Mr. Chambers: No further questions.
Mr. Schwelb: We have nothing further.
Recross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Just a minute. You stated you applied for and have
been assigned to the twelfth grade of the Bunn School’
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Pursuant to the Freedom of Choice given to all grades
in the County School System? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You knew last year the choice was only four grades,
didn’t you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right.
Mr. Yarborough: That is all.
-3 2 -
Deposition of Queen E. Wortham
—36—
Mbs. Queen E. W ortham, being first duly sworn, de
poses and says:
Direct Examination by Mr. Cannon:
Q. Mrs. Wortham, will you state your name, please!
A. Mrs. Queen E. Wortham.
Q. And for the record, would you state your race! A.
Colored.
Q. And could you tell us where you live, please, ma’am?
A. I live on Louisburg, Route 1, Box 134.
Q. And how many children do you have? A. I have
two girls and one little son, a foster son.
Q. And what are their names, please? A. The oldest
daughter is Yardine Wortham.
Q. And the others? A. Esther Mae Wortham. Willie
Earl Wortham.
—37—
Q. All right. Are any of those children now attending
schools in Franklin County? A. Willie Earl is attending
Riverside.
Q. Is that an all Negro school? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Mrs. Wortham, did you receive a Freedom of Choice
Form in 1965? A. Yes, sir. I received it in May.
Q. Was your daughter, Esther, employed after that
time? A. Well, yes. She was employed in May, but I
couldn’t say exactly the date.
Q. Was it after you received the choice form? A. Now,
I received the choice form in May, too, and she was hired
in May.
Q. Is there anything unusual about the job that she was
employed for? A. Unusual?
398a
Deposition of Queen E. Wortham
Q. Is there anything unusual or significant about the
job she was employed for? A. No, sir.
Q. What was the job that she was employed for? A. It
was figuring up tobacco acreage.
Q. Were any other Negroes employed at that job? A.
It was two.
—38-
Q. Had they been employed before here? A. Both of
them was employed at the same time. Esther and Elaine.
Q. Was that ever mentioned in the paper? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Which paper was that? A. It was in the Franklin
Times.
Q. Can you tell me what day of the week that was? A.
Well, they published the paper on Tuesday, and the paper
eomes out on a Wednesday.
Q. What happened Wednesday night? A. Well, on a
Wednesday night it was some oil put in our well.
Q. Did anything else happen? A. Well, it was some
tacks thrown in the yard.
Q. Did you see the people that did it? A. Well, I went
to the window. I got up out of the bed and I went to
the window, and I saw the car drive off real fast.
Q. Going back to the job that your daughter, Esther,
took, was she the first Negro employed at this job? A.
She and Elaine, yes, sir, were the first two Negroes.
Q. Before that it had been all white? A. I beg your
pardon? L
Q. Before that only whites had been employed at that
job? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did the newspaper article say?
Mr. Tucker: I object to the form.
399a
Deposition of Queen E. Wortham
By Mr. Gannon-.
Q. What did the newspaper article say about your daugh
ter?
Mr. Tucker: I object to the form.
By Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Go ahead and answer. They can object to the form.
That is among the lawyers, but you can answer the ques
tion anyway. A. Well, I remember something in the paper,
it said Esther Mae Wortham, Elaine Brown and Esther
Mae Wortham was hired, you know, just temporarily. In
the paper. That’s all. I couldn’t think of all what it said.
By Mr. Cannon:
Q. What made this hiring noteworthy! What was im
portant about it?
—40—
Mr. Yarborough: Objection to the form.
Mr. Tucker: Objection.
A. I couldn’t tell you.
By Mr. Gannon:
Q. The day after the kerosene was put in the well, what
happened? Did anything happen on Thursday? A. Well,
I sent the little boy’s application in to school. To Riverside
Union, to maintain back at Riverside School.
Q- Did anyone speak to you about which school he was
going to? A. Well, our bossman came that Friday. And
I was setting on the well. And he asked me. He heard
that the reason the kerosene was put in the well, said I
400a
had signed my little boy to Bunn’s High School, and I told
him no, sir, I did not.
Q. Is Bunn High School predominantly white? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And what was that man’s name that talked to you?
A. Ellis Bryant, Sr., of Oxford.
Q. And does your husband work for Mr. Bryant? A.
Yes, sir. We farm for Mr. Bryant.
Q. Are you tenant farmers? A. Yes, sir. We are ten
ant farmers for him. We have been with him thirty years.
—41—
Q. Did anyone come by after the incident and ask you
about it? A. Well, neighbors came by and asked.
Q. And anyone else? A. Well, our closest friends and
came home on a Sunday and asked about it.
Q. How many people altogether would you estimate came
out to see you about it? A. I ’d say there were about six.
My neighbors and closest relatives.
Q. How many would you say? A. About six.
Q. Did anyone drive by to look at the place? A. Yes.
A lot of them drove by and looked at the well.
Q. Including those people, how many would that be!
A. I ’d say there were about fifty or seventy-five. I didn’t
go running to the door, you know, every time, and look.
I would probably be cooking or doing something, but you
know, I didn’t run to the door every time and count them.
Q. Did anyone mention it to you when you went into
—42-
town? A. They mentioned it when we would go to the
store. And like I went to Sunday School, and my friends
at Sunday School would ask me about it. And I just told
them yes, it was kerosene put in the well. That’s all I said.
And I didn’t say no more.
Deposition of Queen E. Wortham
401a
Mr. Cannon: I don’t think we have any further
questions.
direct Examinaiton by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mrs. Wortham, how old was your boy that you re
quested assignment for last year at Riverside School? A.
Well, last year he was eight years old, and he’s nine this
year.
Q. And did you request reassignment for him this year
back at Riverside? A. To maintain back at Riverside, yes,
sir. I received it.
Q. Why did you send him back to Riverside? A. Well,
I just rather for him to go back to Riverside, because I
figure he knows his little friends over there and he knows
his teacher right well, and so I assigned him back to River
side. And I know the principal, because he taught me, and
so he taught my girls and they finished there, and it is a
—4 3 -
family school, and I would just rather for him to main
tain back at Riverside. That’s my reason.
Q. Did you know anything about the courses offered at
Bunn? A. At Bunn?
Q. At Louisburg High School? A. Courses? No. I don’t
believe I do.
Q. Do you know the subjects that were taught there at
Louisburg High School? A. No, sir. I don’t believe I do.
Q. Have any of your children gone to college? A. Yes,
sir. My daughter. I have a daughter that went to Eliza
beth City, two and a half years.
Q- This incident of the kerosene being placed in the well
had no effect on your choice of your son attending school,
did it?
Deposition of Queen E. Wortham
402a
Mr. Tucker: Objection to the form of the question.
A. I wouldn’t know. I wouldn’t say.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. You don’t know? A. I don’t know. I wouldn’t say.
I just don’t know.
Q. You have only one child in school now? A. I have
only one little foster son in school. He’s nine years old,
—44—
and he will be in the fourth grade this year. That’s right.
When he goes back to school.
Mr. Chambers: No further questions.
Cross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mrs. Wortham, you live where, south of Louisburg,
near the Caseen Farm? A. I’m joining the Caseen Farm,
Mr. Yarborough.
Q. And Mr. Bryant from Oxford owns it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And looks after it? A. (Nods affirmatively).
Q. And you all have been there for thirty years? A. I
have been there for thirty years.
Q. And your father lived there before you? A. That’s
right.
Q. Who was he? A. Sol Williams.
Q. Sol Williams? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he has been there and you stayed on, you and
your husband stayed on? A. I stayed right on, and we
married there, and I still am continuing on there.
—45—
Q. And so far it has been completely satisfactory, be
cause you have been there a long time, haven’t you? A.
Well, it’s just like home to me.
Deposition of Queen E. Wortham
403a
Q. And Mr. Bryant is a mighty nice man, isn’t he? A.
Yes, sir. He’s dear to us.
Q. He likes you all because you all have been there a
good while; so far as you know he likes you all? A. Yes,
sir. He treats us nice, so far as I know.
Q. And Mrs. Wortham, your daughter, Esther Mae, she
applied for the job over in the A. S. C. A. Office? She put
in the application for the job? A. Yes, sir.
Q. She did that voluntarily? She did it because she
wanted to work? A. She put in the application. That’s
right.
Q. Who was in charge? A. Mr. John E. Davis.
Q. And he lives out on the same road as you do ? A. He
lives on 401.
Q. And you go out 401 from Louisburg and turn off on a
dirt road, going to your home? A. That’s right.
Q. And so the job that your daughter, Elaine, or Esther,
—46—
I beg your pardon, worked at, was a job with the United
States Government, wasn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The Department of Agriculture, Tobacco Control.
Figuring tobacco acreage? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And she liked the work and finished on out, didn’t
she? A. No, sir. She worked a week over there. She
worked one week.
Q. Then what did she do? A. She didn’t work any more.
She said she couldn’t do the work.
Q. Said she couldn’t do the work? A. That’s right. I
mean the light hurt her eyes. Have to work under a light,
ard it hurt her eyes.
Q. And she voluntarily quit? A. Yes.
Q- It was done all on good terms with Mr. Davis? A.
That’s right.
Deposition of Queen E. Wortham
404a
Q. You and your husband go in there signing up and
various things, don’t you? Don’t you and your husband go
to the farm office ? A. No, sir. Mr. Bryant looks after that.
We don’t go in there at all.
- 4 7 -
Q. He goes in and draws the sales cards and things? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. In his name and he gives you all the card in time for
the sale? A. No, sir. He keeps the card himself.
Q. And that is a satisfactory way? You all get along
with it fine on that, don’t you? A. Yes. We get along fine
for this many years.
Q. He meets you at the warehouse? A. That’s right.
Q. And this Elaine Brown, who was her father? A,
Joseph Strickland.
Q. Joseph Strickland that lives down near Stalling’s
Mill? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Called Joe Leonard Strickland, some of them call him?
A. That’s right. Yes, sir.
Q. Is she a married girl, woman? A. Yes, sir. She is
married.
Q. How long has she worked there? Do you remember?
A. I couldn’t say, Mr. Yarborough. I don’t know, sir.
—48-
Q. I believe Joseph Leonard Strickland ran for the Board
of Education this spring, didn’t he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The same time everybody else ran for various jobs
he was a candidate? A. (Nods affirmatively).
Q. Now, Mrs. Wortham, Willie Earl, I believe you said
was your foster son? A. Willie Earl.
Q. And you sent him to Riverside and you went there?
A. (Nods affirmatively).
Deposition of Queen E. Wortham
405a
Q. And your daughter is, your daughters have done
well, and one of them went on to college two and a half
years! A. My oldest daughter went to college two and a
half years, and my second daughter went to Riverside
twelve years.
Q. Who is your second daughter! A. Esther Mae.
Q. She went on to work! A. Yes, sir.
Q. She graduated already. And Professor Carr Harris
is a good friend of yours! A. Yes, sir.
—49—
Q. And it is a family school! A. It is a family school.
Q. Now, on this house you live in, you say six neighbors
came to inquire about the oil incident! A. Yes.
Q. And you say many of them drove by. How far is the
well from the road! I know the road well, but I don’t re
member exactly which house you live in. A. My well is
close to the road as from here to that door.
Q. Do you call that twelve or fifteen feet! A. I reckon
so.
Q. Which house do you live in! A. I live in the house
right in the sharp curve. You know, as you pass the old
home house!
Q. Yes. A. I live in the sharp curve. Well, the well is
setting right there.
Q. Right in the curve! Sort o f! A. Yes, sir. Setting
right in the curve.
Q. And you live not so far from the road yourself, do
you! A. I don’t live hardly nowhere from the road.
Q. And your daughter didn’t have any complaint about
—50—
Mr. John Davis, did she, to you! A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know him, other than the fact who he is! Do
you know him in person when you see him, to speak to him!
A. Mr. John Davis!
Deposition of Queen E. Wortham
406a
Q. Mr. John Davis, the A. S. C. manager. A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he knows you? A. Yes, sir. He knows me.
Q. How long did Elaine Brown work there? A. Well,
I couldn’t tell you how long she worked there.
Q. And you say these people at the store, what store do
you all usually trade? A. At Lloyd.
Q. Mr. Lloyd’s store? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how long have you traded with him? A. Well,
we go up there and buy often. Every other day, you know,
something from him.
Q. You have done it a long time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Your dealings with him have always been all right!
A. Yes, sir.
-5 1 -
Q. You have always dealt all right with Mr. Lloyd? A.
(Nods affirmatively).
Q. He is a white man? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, Mrs. Wortham, first, a few questions I will ask
you: In May of sixty-five, when you got these choice forms,
you filled them out just like you wanted to ? A. I beg your
pardon?
Q. That school choice form in May of 1965, you filled that
out and carried it on back to Riverside School? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And turned it into the office or somewhere there? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And it just so happened that at the same time your
daughter, Elaine— A. (Interposing): Esther.
Q. Esther, went to work on figuring the tobacco allot
ments or whatever. There was no connection between the
two ? She went over there when she found out she could go
to work, and it so happened at the same time the school
Deposition of Queen E. Wortham
407a
board sent out the forms, along in May? A. It was in
- 5 2 -
May. Yes, it was. It was in May.
Q. So far, Mrs. Wortham, as you are concerned, there
was no connection between the school and the oil in your
well, was there? A. Well, no, sir. I wouldn’t say. No, sir.
Q. I mean there would be no reason for it, would there?
I mean you sent your children to the school you wanted
them to go to? A. That’s right. Yes, sir.
Q. And so far as you know, the school you sent your
child to didn’t have a thing in the world to do with some
evil man putting oil in your well, did it ?
Mr. Chambers: We object to the form of the ques
tion.
A. I don’t think so.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Actually, coming into Louisburg from your home, if
somebody would come looking for a school, they would find
Riverside first, wouldn’t they? Riverside is closer to your
home than Louisburg School is? A. Yes, sir. It is.
Q. It is on the south side of the road? A. I ’m not but
- 5 3 -
six miles from Riverside.
Q. And it is the closest school to your home? A. It is
the closest school to my little son.
Q- And he rides a bus there? A. Yes, sir.
Q- That’s all.
Mr. Yarborough: We have no further questions.
Deposition of Queen E. Wortham
408a
Redirect Examination toy Mr. Chambers-.
Q. Mrs. Wortham, did you say your bossman talked to
you about this oil in your well! A. Yes, sir. My bossman
talked to me on that Friday.
Q. When was this oil put in the well! A. I beg your
pardon!
Q. When was this oil put in your well! A. On a Wednes
day.
Q. And what was it you said your bossman said!
Mr. Tucker: Objection to the form of the question.
A. My bossman said—
By Mr. Chambers (Interposing):
Q. Go ahead. A. My bossman asked me, said it was told
to him that the reason the oil was put in the well was be
cause I had signed my little son to Bunn, Bunn High School.
—54-
I said it wasn’t so.
Q. And that is a white school, isn’t it! A. Yes, sir. I
told him it wasn’t so. I had not signed my son to it.
Recross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough-.
Q. Mrs. Wortham, did you say that the day after the oil
was put in your well on a Wednesday you carried the form
hack to Riverside! A. That’s right. I sent it in.
Q. Sent it in! A. Like the rule was. Like I sent it in
this year.
Q. And so in your boss, Mr. Ellis Bryant, Jr., is he Mr.
Linwood Bryant’s son! A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Queen E. Wortham
409a
Q. Mr. Linwood Bryant has got some age on him now,
and his boy is looking after his farms! A. That’s right.
Q. So when he said something to you, you had already
sent the form back, hadn’t you! A. Yes, sir. I had sent
the form back.
Re-Redirect Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. You had sent the form back before he spoke to you!
A. Before he even spoke to me.
Q. Was the form sent back after the oil was placed in
—55—
the well! A. The oil was placed in the well a Wednesday
night, and I sent the form back that Thursday.
Re-Recross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Had you already filled the form out the Wednesday
night before you found out about the oil! A. Well, yes,
sir. I had filled the form out, before ever I knew anything
about the oil.
Q. The oil didn’t have a thing in the world to do with
the school you picked for your son, did it! A. I don’t think
so.
Mr. Schwelb: We have nothing further.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. That is all. Thank you, Mrs. Wortham. That is all.
Mr. Yarborough: That is all, as far as we are con
cerned.
Deposition of Queen E. Wortham
410a
>: —57-
Stipulated Testimony
Mr. Schwelb: The parties in this case have made
certain stipulations with respect to the testimony of
four witnesses.
They are Mrs. Annie Esther Satterwhite; Mrs.
Alveretta Moore; Cuther Geddie; and Alonzo Dunn.
Now, the stipulation is to the effect that they would
testify in the manner indicated. There is no stipula
tion as to whether or not the subject matter so testi
fied to is admissible.
(Discussion off Record)
Mr. Schwelb: The only ground on which defend
ants reserve the right to object to this stipulated
testimony is on the grounds of relevancy or compe
tency or materiality.
Now, the stipulation is that Mrs. Annie Esther
Satterwhite would testify as follows:
“Mrs. Annie Esther Satterwhite, Negro, would
testify that she enrolled her son, Donald Ray, in
the first grade at Bunn High School, pursuant to
Freedom of Choice in ’65 and ’66, and that two chil
dren in lateral transfer grades were denied lateral
—58-
transfers for ’65 and ’66. All three children will he
attending Bunn for the 1966-67 school year.
“ In about September, 1965, Mrs. Butler Brantley,
who is not associated with the School Board and
who had employed Mrs. Satterwhite to tie tobacco
Stipulated Testimony of Annie Esther Satterwhite,
Alveretta Moore, Cuther Geddie and Alonso Dunn
411a
for four days, asked Mrs. Satterwhite if she had a
child at Bunn, and Mrs. Satterwhite said she did.
Mrs. Brantley told her that she could no longer use
her because Mrs. Brantley did not believe in races
mixing. Mrs. Satterwhite has not worked for her
since and has not applied because ‘she does not need
it that bad’.”
Mr. Schwelb: (Continuing) Mrs. Alveretta Moore
would testify as follows:
“Mrs. Alveretta Moore, Negro, would testify that
she heard the conversation between Mrs. Satter
white and Mrs. Butler Brantley and that Mrs. Satter
white has correctly stated the conversation.
“Mrs. Moore continued to work for Mrs. Brantley
for the balance of the tobacco-tying season.”
Mr. Schwelb: (Continuing) Cuther Geddie would
testify as follows:
“Cuther Geddie, Negro, age fifteen, a former ward
of the Franklin County Welfare Department, who
—59—
had been placed in the Dunston home, would testify
that at his request, the Dunstons applied to transfer
him to Louisburg High School for 1965-66, and his
application for a lateral transfer, signed by Reverend
Dunston, was denied.
“A few weeks after June 8, 1965, three men in a
truck came to the driveway of the Dunston home,
and called out, “Tell him we’re going to get him
tonight” , or words to that effect. They scattered
Stipulated Testimony of Annie Esther Satterwhite,
Alveretta Moore, Cuther Geddie and Alonzo Bunn
412a
some tacks or nails. He understood that the men
were referring to Reverend Dunston.
“ Geddie would also testify that he was well treated
at the Dunston home and that it was kept clean.”
Mr. Schwelb: (Continuing) And Alonzo Dunn
would testify as follows:
“Alonzo Dunn, Age seventeen, Negro, a ward of
the Franklin County Welfare Department, residing
at the Dunston, home, would testify that in about
1963, while Reverend and Mrs. Dunston were out one
evening, the telephone rang, he answered it, and an
unknown voice said, “The house will be bombed in
half and hour” , or words to that effect.
Dunn and the three Geddie boys were afraid and
—60-
ran to a neighbor.
“ The house has not been bombed.”
Stipulated Testimony of Annie Esther Satterwhite,
Alveretta Moore, Cuther Geddie and Alonzo Bunn
413a
Deposition of Nellie Margaret Kearney
—3—
Nellie Margaret K earney, a witness for the plaintiffs,
being duly sworn, deposes and says:
direct Examination by F. H. Kennedy, Jr. :
Q. Please state yonr name, your place of residence, and
your race. A. Nellie Margaret Kearney, Route 1, Box 56,
Louisburg, North Carolina, Negro.
Q. How long have yon lived at that address? A. I have
lived off and on for about four years at that address.
Q. Do you have any children? A. Yes.
Q. How many? A. Two.
Q. How old are they? A. One is 4 years old and the
other is 5.
Q. Are either of them in school? A. No.
Q. Who do you live with at that house where you live?
A. I live with my father and mother.
Q. What are their names, your parents? A. Sanford
Johnson is my father’s name and my mother’s name is
Betty Johnson.
Q. Do you have any sisters and brothers? A. Yes, sir,
I have two sisters and one brother.
— 4—
Q. What are their names? A. My sister is named
Mamie Johnson Jones and my brother is named Sanford
Johnson, Jr., and my other sister is Elva Mary Johnson.
Q. Do you have any brother or sisters in school? A. I
have one sister that graduated this past June.
Q. Where did she graduate from? A. Riverside High
School.
Q. Now, has anything unusual happened, any unusual
event happened at your house this past year? A. Yes,
it did.
414a
Q. What was that? A. Well, it was in this last January,
1966, but I don’t know the exact date but it was on a
Monday around somewhere in the neighborhood of 11:00
p.m. someone shot in my father’s house.
Mr. Yarborough: Were you there at the time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you asleep or awake at the time? A. Well, I
was in the process of going to sleep.
Q. Were you upstairs or downstairs? A. Downstairs.
Q. Did you hear a noise? A. Yes.
Q. Describe that Noise. A. Well, it sounded like some-
— 5-
one was running and banged into the house. That was
the noise I heard from the outside, and the noise I heard
on the inside sounded to me as though somebody was falling
or something was falling, and I figured it was my sister’s
books that were falling, from it, because she had left them
there before she went to bed that night.
Q. Did you see any evidence of what you considered to
have been the result of a shot? A. Yes.
Q. Describe that for us. A. The bullets came through
the screen, the window, the drapery, through the wall from
the living room through the den and out the back door.
Q. Can you tell us approximately how high up off the
floor the bullet holes were in the living room, how many
feet they were up? A. About 4 feet, approximately 4 feet.
Q. Was anybody in the room at the time? A. No.
Q. Had there been anybody in the room within the pie-
ceding hour or two before the shot? A. Yes.
Q. Who was in there before the time of the shot? A.
I was.
Deposition of Nellie Margaret Kearney
Deposition of Nellie Margaret Kearney
— 6 —
Q. I show you now several photographs. I want you to
look at them and tell me if you can identify what they
represent. A. This is the window (indicating on photo
graph).
Mr. Kennedy: Let the record show that the wit
ness is pointing to the photograph which is marked
9-6, which is a photograph of the window located in
the lower righthand corner of the living room, the
photograph showing where the bullet entered the
living room. And the record may show that the wit
ness is also indicating the photograph marked 9-7.
Q. Proceed. A. This is a picture (indicating) of the
hole in the living room, from the inside of the living room.
Mr. Kennedy: Let the record show that the wit
ness is pointing to the photograph marked 9-8.
A. This is the hole in the living room by the door that
goes into the den.
Mr. Kennedy: Let the record show that the wit
ness is indicating the photograph marked 9-9. Pro
ceed.
A. This is where the bullet came through to the dining-
area in the kitchen.
Q. Photograph marked 9-10 is what? A. This is the
hole going through the back door in the den.
—7—
Q. And what does the picture marked 9-11 represent? A.
That is the hole from the back porch in the door.
416a
Q. Who discovered the holes made by the bullets? A,
my sister.
Mr. Kennedy: I offer in evidence as Government
Exhibits 1 and 2 in this deposition, the two sets of
photographs which the witness has been identifying.
Q. I believe I asked you who discovered the bullet holes,
did I not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was that? A. My sister, Elva Mary Johnson,
Q. What did she do then, if anything?
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, “To the form.”
A. She knocked on my door and told me to get up and
when I did she asked me if the hole was in the wall when
we went to bed and I told her no, so then we got my
father and mother up and we discovered the hole came
from the living room and went on through the back door
to the back porch.
Q. Were your two children with you in the house at
the time? A. Yes, sir, the two children were there.
Q. And your father and mother were there? A. Yes.
Q. What effect did it have on you? A. Well, I’m still
—8-
nervous from it. Can I explain that?
Q. Yes. A. Because before I went to bed I was stand
ing up folding clothes and where I was standing the bullet
came right, you know, by where I was standing, and I
had been in bed, I guess, about 15 minutes.
Q. Did the Sheriff come out to investigate the happenings
A. Yes.
Q. To your knowledge was anybody ever arrested as
a result of that shooting? A. No.
Deposition of Nellie Margaret Kearney
417a
Mr. Kennedy: That’s all.
Mr. Chambers: No questions.
Gross Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. This unknown to you person shot into your father’s
house for some reason unknown to you? A. As far as I
know, Yes.
Q. And you say the Sheriff came out and investigated
the matter? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The Sheriff of Franklin County? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the FBI investigated it also to the best of your
knowledge? A. Yes, sir.
—9—
Q. And they were unable to turn up anybody that you
know of? A. Not anybody that I know of.
Q. And you were unable to give them any leads as to
who it might have been? A. That’s right.
Q. No members of your family were able to give the
officers any leads? A. That’s right, we have no idea about
whom it was at all.
Mr. Yarborough: They are all the questions I
have.
Mr. Schwelb: I have no questions.
(Witness Excused)
Deposition of Nellie Margaret Kearney
Deposition of Irene Arrington
— 10-
Mrs. Irene A rrington, a witness for the plaintiffs, being
duly sworn, deposes and says:
Direct Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Please state for the record your name, your address,
and your race. A. Mrs. Irene Arrington, address Louis-
burg, N. C., Route 3, Box 267.
Q. And what is your age? A. I am 45 years old.
Q. You are a Negro? A. Yes, I am a Negro.
Q. How long have you lived in Franklin County? A.
All my life.
Q. What part of Franklin County do you live in? A. I
live in the Moulton Community.
Q. Is that community within the city limits of Louis-
burg, North Carolina? A. No.
Q. How far is that community from Louisburg? A.
About 7 miles.
Q. Who is your father? A. Sandy Jones.
Q. Where does he live? A. He lives on Louisburg
Route 3, at the same address I live at, the same address
—li
as mine.
Q. Does he live in an adjoining house to yours? A.
Yes, he does.
Q. You are a widow? A. Yes, I am.
Q. When did your husband die? A. My husband died
January 4th 1966.
Q. Mrs. Arrington, do you have any children? A. Yes,
I do.
Q. How many? A. Three.
Q. Is one of your children named Norine? A. That’s
right, Norine.
419a
Q. Were you representing her as one of the plaintiffs
in this case! A. Yes.
Q. She was trying, that is Norine, was trying to get into
the schools of Franklin County that were not fully—
—Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, “As to form.”
Q. I’ll put it this way, then: You were trying to get
the schools of Franklin County fully desegregated! A.
That’s correct.
Q. Are you a member of the NAACP! A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you been a member of that organiza
tion! A. I have been a member of the NAACP around
— 12—
6 or 7 years.
Q. Have you encouraged Negroes in the community to
register to vote! A. I have.
Q. Are you interested in the desegregation of the schools!
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Do you remember that back in 1963 a petition was
being circulated by several of the clergy, Negro clergy,
asking the desegregation of the schools! A. Yes.
Q. Did you sign such a petition! A. I did.
Q. In 1963 was there any desegregation as a result of
that! A. No, sir, not that I know of.
Q. Do you remember whether or not the year after the
petition had been signed you applied to try to get your
children or any of your children placed in a formerly all
white school! A. Yes, I do; I did.
Q. That was the year before the freedom of choice came
out! A. That’s right.
Q. Mrs. Arrington, were you the only parent who at
tempted to do this at that time! A. I was not. There
were others.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
420a
Q. There were others? A. There were others.
Q. Who were they? A. Mr. and Mrs. St. Clarence Ar
rington, and Mrs. Christine Rodwell.
Q. And St. Clarence Arrington is the husband of Susie
Arrington? A. That’s correct.
Q. And what are the names of your children? A. Joe
Bennie, Lenwood, Jr., and Norine Arrington.
Q. What was your husband’s name? A. Lenwood Ar
rington.
Q. Did he join you in attempting to enroll your children
at that time? A. He didn’t object, but he didn’t know
anything about it because he was sick and there was
nothing he could do.
Q. He was sick how long before he died? A. For 10
years.
Q. Was he an invalid during any part of that time?
A. Yes, he were.
Q. How long was he an invalid? A. He was an invalid
for about 5 years.
Q. Was your application to enroll your children ap
proved or disapproved? A. It was rejected by the Board
of Education.
—14—
Q. Do you now know what the reason was that they were
rejected? A. No, I couldn’t say I know anymore now than
I did at first.
Q. Do you recall that anyone explained to you that yon
didn’t live in the city limits of Louisburg and that that
was the reason?
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, “To the form.”
Deposition of Irene Arrington
- 1 3 -
421a
Deposition of Irene Arrington
A. No.
Q. Was there any explanation given to you that you can
remember? A. Well, now, do you mean as to either one
of the applications that I signed?
Q. I’m talking about the first application before the
freedom of choice came out. A. No.
Q. Now, do you know whether St. Clarence Arrington
and his wife persisted in their application or whether they
withdrew? A. They withdrew it.
Q. Have you been told what the reason was? A. Yes,
I have.
Q. What were you told about that and by whom? A.
They were threatened by their landlord, threats were made
by their landlord that if they didn’t withdraw that they
would have to move, that they couldn’t stay there; that’s
—15—
what they said.
Q. They told this to you? A. They told this to me.
Q. Were you threatened at that time? A. Yes, I was.
Q. By whom? A. By the same man that he lived with.
Q. Tell us about that. A. He sent word to me that I
was not to come on his premises no more and that some
thing was going to happen to me.
Q. Now, Mrs. Arrington, you didn’t actually converse
with this man did you? A. No, I didn’t, I never had any
talk with him.
Q. You don’t know about it of your own knowledge and
you are just relating what somebody else told you? A.
That is what somebody else told me, correct.
Q. And who told you that ? A. One of his tenants named
Peter Branch and St. Clarence Arrington.
422a
Mr. Schwelb: At this time I would like to offer in
evidence two articles clipped from the Franklin
Times, one of them under date of June 16, 1964, as
Government Exhibit No. 1 in this deposition, and
the other one dated June 23rd, 1964, as Government
Exhibit No. 2. And just for clarification I will ask
her another question.
- 1 6 -
Q. Mrs. Arrington, regarding the man that came there
and gave you the message, you did not hear the man make
the threats and you are only telling what other people
told you! A. It was what other people told me, and they
said that “He sent me here to tell you.”
Mr. Yarborough: Objection to the newspaper
items introduced as Government Exhibits 1 and 2
in this deposition.
Q. I would like for you to tell us, please, Mrs. Arrington,
what the reason or reasons were that you wanted to enroll
your children in the Louisburg High School, and you
might start your answer by saying what school they were
going to at the time and what you thought about that
school. A. Well, I wanted it for better education and a
better school bus. The bus they were going on they would
have to leave home in the mornings and couldn’t even
get a lunch over there, not even a package of peanuts or
nothing that they could have for lunch until after they
would get back from school.
Q. What school was that! A. Cedar Street Elementary
School.
Q. They had no lunch room at that school! A. No, there
was not one there.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
423a
De-position of Irene Arrington
—17—/
Q. They would get back home about what time? A.
Around 4:00 o’clock or a little after.
Q. Now, do you remember that back in the spring of 1965
that a free choice system was adopted by the School Board
and that free choice applications and applications for
lateral transfers were distributed in the community? A.
I do.
Q. In the spring of 1965 did you make any applications
for Norine to attend the Louisburg High School? A.
That’s right, lateral transfer.
Q. What grade was she going into? A. The 7th grade.
Q. You have referred to lateral transfer; were you ad
vised what the criteria were for admitting people? A.
No I haven’t been.
Q. You have not been told about that? A. I have not
been told, no.
Q. Were you told who could apply?
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, “To the form.”
A. Well, I knew that if they didn’t think she could attend
they wouldn’t have sent word out and I didn’t know
nothing else but to apply, and that is what I did.
Q. What was your reason for applying for the lateral
transfer at that time? A. For a better school for my
daughter.
—18—
Q. By that time had your son, Joe Bennie, graduated
from high school? A. No, he hadn’t.
Q. Had you applied for him to attend? A. No.
Q. Why? A. He didn’t want to.
424a
Q. What about your son Lenwood, Jr.! A. He didn’t
want to.
Q. But Norine did! A. Yes, she wanted to.
Q. What school are Joe Bennie and Lenwood, Jr. going
to now! A. Riverside.
Q. Now directing your attention to the date of May 28th
1965 I ask you if anything unusual happened at your
house on that day! A. Yes, it did.
Q. What happened at your house on that day! A. On
May 28th, on the night of May 28th around 11:25 that is
the time my house was shot into.
Q. How many times was your house shot into! A.
Twice.
Q. Do you remember the exact date that your house was
shot into! A. I remember the date of the last one but
on the first one not.
—19-
Q. Let’s talk about them one at a time. With respect to
the first time, and I ’m asking about the first shooting now,
what time of day was that! A. It was about 9 :15 at night,
and I don’t recall exactly the date of that shooting, but
they were two weeks apart.
Q. Let’s talk about the first shooting and then we’ll get
to shooting number two. If you don’t remember the date
exactly with respect to shooting number one you do say
that it was at about 9:15 at night? A. That’s right.
Q. Who was in the house at the time? A. My father and
my three kids and myself.
Q. Was your husband there too! A. No, he was not;
he was visiting his mother; his mother would send after
Viim or would tell me to bring him over there to her ant
her keep him for three or four days sometimes and he
Deposition of Irene Arrington
425a
would stay until lie would get tired and would want to
come back home and then I would go and get him and
bring him back home.
Q. At the time what were the children doing? A. They
were watching T Y .
Q. What part of the house were you in as they were
watching TV? A. There was two bedrooms there in the
— 20-
house, my bedroom and my husband’s bedroom, and I was
sitting kind of in the doorway and the TV was in my
bedroom; I was sititng between the rooms.
Q. Tell us where the bullets went. A. Came in the
window right over the TV, right in the west part of my
home.
Q. How many shots were there, approximately? A. I
know there was two loads that came in the window; prob
ably one or two in the car.
Q. On the first occasion did you call the sheriff? A. Yes,
sir, I did.
Q. When did you call the sheriff? A. I called the Sheriff
about 10 minutes after it was done.
Q. Did the Sheriff come there? A. He came there.
Q. When did the Sheriff come there ? A. The next morn
ing at 7 :30.
Q. Did you have any other conversation with him be
tween the time you first called him and the time he came?
A. No, I didn’t. I just called him and he said he would
be there and he didn’t come then. Then at 7 :00 o’clock
I called him again and he said he would be there about
7:30.
Q. Did he come at 7 :30? A. That’s when he came.
— 21—
Q- Did he try to investigate it? A. Yes.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
426a
Q. Do you know, in connection with that first shooting,
whether anybody has been arrested! A. No they haven’t,
that I know of.
Q. Do you recall the names that came out in the news
paper of people who were applying to send their children
to formerly all white schools! A. Yes.
Q. Now, after this first shooting happened at your
house, do you recall the second shooting that took place
at your house! A. Yes, I do.
Q. Was that second shooting before or after the names
came out in the paper! A. It was afterward.
Q. If you were to learn that the newspaper came out
on June 8th—
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, “To the form.”
Q. Mrs. Arrington, if the newspaper came out on June
8th then could you say whether the second shooting was
before June 8th or sometime after June 8th! A. The
second shooting was in May, I think. I think it was in May,
— 22-
if I don’t make any mistake.
Q. Was it after the names came out in the newspaper?
A. It was after the names came out in the newspaper, yes.
Q. What part of the house were you in! A. I was m
the bed at that time.
Q. What time was that! A. That was around a quarter
past eleven, if I make no mistake.
Q . Was your husband at home then! A . My husban
was there then, just my husband and the three kids.
Q. Describe what happened to the bullets at that time.
A. Well, I was awakened by the bullets, was sleeping and
I was awakened by the noise, and the bullets came bac
Deposition of Irene Arrington
\
427a
in the same window and went, some of them went all the
way through the den and went on through the wall in there,
and one of them went clean through the room at the head
of my husband’s bed, and then they shot in my front window
on the porch, the next room, then they shot in the back
of my car and tore up the back of my car glass and two
bullets went through the back and came on and hit the
front windshield.
Q. Do you know whether or not any other home in your
vicinity was shot into at that same time? A. My father’s
home was shot into that same night.
—23—
Q. Was he at home at that time? A. No, he wasn’t.
Q. Do you know who was there, if anybody? A. My
sister was there.
Q. She is now deceased? A. She is now deceased, yes.
Q. Did your father have any grandchildren with him?
A. Yes, he had one there, Charles Jones.
Q. Had an application been made for Charles Jones to
be transferred? A. Yes.
Q. Where was Charles Jones supposed to go? A. Louis-/
burg high.
Q. Was it elementary or high school? A. He was sup
posed to go the following year.
Mr. Schwelb: I would like to introduce in evidence
as Government Exhibit 3 to this deposition this
newspaper clipping from the Franklin Times of
June 17, 1965, there being attached as a part of it a
Times Staff photo showing the automobile in ques
tion after the shooting had taken place.
Q- Did you read about this shooting in the Franklin
Times after the shooting happened at your house? A.
Yes, I read about it.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
428a
- 2 4 -
Q. Would you say that whatever date was stated in the
Franklin Times would be the correct date!
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, “To the form”.
A. I would.
Q. Besides the newspaper publicity that has given the
facts, the newspaper item that has been introduced in evi
dence here, because of the fact that you had made such
application for your children to get into the white school,
did you hear of it on any other news media! A. It came
out over the radio and it came out in the Franklin Times.
Q. Had anybody ever shot into your home before you
applied to be allowed to send your child to a white school!
A. No.
Q. Did you have any other incident to happen to you
besides the shootings, after you had applied to send your
children to a formerly all white school! A. Never have.
Q. Did you talk to anybody on the telephone that you
had never talked to before!
Mr. Yarborough: I object to that.
A. I had a lot of telephone calls in between the two shoot
ings ; that is when I had a lot of threatening telephone
calls.
—25—
Q. Tell us something about that. A. Well, after the
first shooting I had a lot of telephone calls; the telephone
calls started around supper time and would last until
about 11:00 o’clock, and a lot of them would tell me, asked
me was I trying to get white, why did I want my childrtn
Deposition of Irene Arrington
429a
to go to an all white school. Some of them was telling me
that something was going “to happen to you, you are going
to get killed.” And some of them would say they was
going to bomb my home. Every time I would ask who
they was, they said “Never mind” . And others would say
“Gold Sand School calling, Gold Sand School calling,” and
when I would ask who they was they said “Never mind” .
They was threatening right between the two shootings
after the names came out in the paper then they started
threatening until the last shooting.
Q. What about after the last shooting, did you have
anymore calls? A. I didn’t have anymore calls after the
last shooting, that ended the telephone calls.
Q. How frequently would those calls come in? A. Every
night.
Q. Would there be more than one at night, each night?
— 26—
A. There would be at least from four to five every night.
Q. From four to five calls? A. From four to five calls
every night.
Q. How late would they be calling you? A. After around
11:00 o’clock I never got another one.
Q. Did you know any of the people who called you, per
sonally? A. No, I didn’t.
Q. Could you tell whether they were white people or
colored people calling by the kind of accent?
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough.
A. No, not definitely.
Objection, by Mr. Tucker.
A. I think they were from white people.
Q. Do you believe that there ought to be desegregation
in the schools? A. That’s right.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
430a
Q. Was 'the lateral transfer for your daughter allowed?
A. No.
Q. And she is still at what school? A. She is assigned
this year for Riverside.
Q. Have you filled out a freedom of choice form for next
year? A. Yes.
Q. What school did you ask that she be assigned to?
A. Riverside.
- 2 7 -
Q. Actually, didn’t you fill out one of your two sheets of
paper for next year and then filled out another? A. I filled
out the first sheet that was sent to me, and Mr. Smith told
me to come to the office and I went down there and I signed
another one.
Q. Explain to us a little bit how that came about, please.
A. Well, the first form that I filled out I put on there that
I would like for my children to go to the all white school
but that I was afraid of being intimidated; that was the
first form. Then Mr. Smith sent for me to come down to
Mr. Yarborough’s office and they asked me would I sign
another form.
Q. Was Mr. Yarborough there at that time? A. Yes, he
were.
Q. Did he explain to you that you had every right for
them to go to whatever school you wanted them to go to!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was he polite to you? A. He was very polite to me.
Q. Was he kind to you? A. Yes, he were.
Q. By the way, your window was broken at least on one
occasion there in your house, wasn’t it, the glass broken?
—28-
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, to the form.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
431a
Deposition of Irene Arrington
A. Both times.
Q. Do you have any friendly white neighbors? A. Yes.
Q. Did they do anything for you in connection with this ?
A. When my glass was broke in my automobile Mr. George
Fuller gave me a glass to be put back in which cost $90.00.
Q. Is he a white man, what race is he? A. He is a white
man.
Q. Did other white people talk to you in a friendly man
ner about this? A. No one have said anything to me about
the suit against the Board of Education. A lot of them
have told me how dirty it is, said it was just a dirty trick,
things like that, that it was just a shame, a lot of them
have said that.
Q. Would you still like for your daughter to go to school
where she could get a desegregated education, to an inte
grated school, if possible? A. Would I like for her to go
to a white school?
Q. Yes. A. I certainly would.
Q. Can you tell us now, and I want you to be calm and
honest and free with, us about this as you can be, why,
—29—
although you are a plaintiff in this case, you didn’t apply
for Norine to attend Louisburg High School this year? A.
I just think it is a better education at the white school and
their schools are better than ours.
Q. You misunderstood my question. Why didn’t you ap
ply for Norine to attend the white school this year? A. I
beg your pardon. It was because I was afraid of being
intimidated.
Q. Tell us what the reasons were that you were afraid
you would be intimidated. A. Well, when it would come
out in the papers. I have a boy now that is driving my car
on the road, on weekends dating, and when they found it
43?,a
out I was afraid that somebody might waylay my boys and
hurt them. They could be shot at or something while I was
asleep, and I didn’t want to get hurt anymore.
Q. You have been shot at? A. Yes.
Q. You went to Mr. Yarborough’s office to talk to him
about this? A. I went to Mr. Yarborough’s office when I
was sent for.
Q. Did you tell him that you were afraid? A. No. He
didn’t ask me.
Q. If you weren’t afraid would you want to send your
child there now? A. To a white school?
— 3 0 -
Q. To a formerly all white school, yes. A. Yes.
Q. For the reasons that you have described in this depo
sition? A. That’s right.
Q. Do a lot of Negroes know about the shootings into
your home? A. Yes, they do.
Q. Are you claiming that anybody at the Franklin School
Board was ever less that polite to you?
Objection, Mr. Tucker, To the form of the ques
tion.
A. Nobody but Mr. Clint Fuller; he was the only one on
the Board of Education.
Q. What happened about him? A. At the meeting in
which we were asking them to reconsider and let our chil
dren go to the white school, and that was after they were
rejected as to the matter of transfer, he raised his voice
and said How could he please the Negro and the white race
and the Klan, if that is what you would call it. And I spoke
up then and told him that the Reverend Mr. Coppedge was
the one that was speaking for us, said, “Mr. Fuller, yon
Deposition of Irene Arrington
433a
are getting the wrong impression. The Beverend Mr. Cop-
— 31—
pedge is not just speaking for my child now, he is the
spokesman for the whole group and is concerned about all
the Negro children, not only his and mine.
Mr. Schwelb: They are all the questions I have
now.
Direct Examination by Mr. Chambers •.
Q. Mrs. Arrington, where are you working now, if any
where? A. I am working in a private home, working for
Mrs. Parish.
Q. Where were you working at the time that you re
quested the transfer for your children? A. I was working
at the same place, working in the home of Mrs. Annie Par
rish.
Q. Were you working in her home in 1964 when you re
quested the transfer? A. Yes, I have been working there
5 years part-time and have been working there 3 years reg
ular.
Q. In 1965 did you apply for work anywhere else? A.
Yes, I did.
Q. Where did you apply? A. I applied for a job in the
Cedar Street School cafeteria, when they said they were
going to build one out there I applied for a job there.
Q. Was that after you requested transfer of your child
to an integrated school? A. That was in the spring, yes.
—32—
Q. Did you get the job in the cafeteria? A. Not at first;
I was rejected at first. But by being the president of the
PTA the parents over there got together and said they
wouldn’t support the program if they wouldn’t hire some-
Deposition of Irene Arrington
434a
body out of the Cedar Stret PTA to work with their chil
dren, so it went hack through again and I was informed that
everybody on the Board talked well of me excepting Mr.
Clint Fuller who said some words to the principal that he
didn’t approve of me but that I could still get the job, but
after he said that I wouldn’t accept the job then.
Cross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. You learned about there being a job open in the Cedar
Street school, learned that they were going to put in a
cafeteria there and that they would need some workers and
you applied for the job through Mr. Battle, the principal
of the school? A. That’s right.
Q. You knew that that school and you know now that it
has a committee or advisory council? A. Yes, sir, sure, I
knew that.
Q. And you know that the policy of the Board of Educa
tion is that employees of the school be approved both by
—33—
the principal and the local committee? A. Yes.
Q. And you knew, of course, that your name first had to
be submitted to Mr. Battle and then to the Committee be
fore the Board of Education took a hand in it at all, you
knew that was the way it operated, didn’t you ? A. I knew
that my application was filed or given to Mr. Battle, the
principal of the school, and that then it would be turned
over to his Committee, and I found out that it was denied
by his Committee.
Q. You found out that it had been denied by his Com
mittee? A. By his Committee, yes. And I called Mr. Smith
and told him that the Cedar Street PTA would not support
the program unless the parents could have the opportunity
to work with their own children, told him that we had quab-
Deposition of Irene Arrington
435a
fled people out there that wanted to work, and Mr. Smith
explained to me that this had come from the Advisory Com
mittee and that he was expecting them to work something
out.
Q. And he told you that it hadn’t come before the Board
of Education up to that time! A. That’s right, that it
hadn’t come before the Board of Education at that time.
Q. You know Mr. Cecil Macon who was on the Advisory
Committee! A. Yes, I know him.
—34—
Q. And he was a witness here yesterday? A. I don’t
know about that.
Q. But you do know him well? A. I sure do.
Q. He lives right next to the Beverend Dunston’s home?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you know Mr. Wilton Perry? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you know that the Chairman of that Advisory
Committee is a colored man? A. That’s right.
Q. And you know Mr. Joseph Lewis, who was on that
Committee? A. I do.
Q. And you know that he is a colored man? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you know that Mrs. Esther Loan was on that
Committee, and you know her? A. Yes, I know her very
well.
Q. And you know Mrs. Lula Johnson, who was on that
Committee? A. Yes, very well.
Q. You knew the members of that Committee? A. Yes,
I knew them.
Q. So when you wTere rejected, as you say, you weren’t
—S S -
rejeeted by Mr. Smith and you were not rejected by Mr.
Battle, hut you were rejected by the Committee, is that
correct? A. That’s correct.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
436a
Q. And all of those people on that Committee were col
ored people? A. That is what Mr. Smith told me.
Q. I want you to answer my question, All of those peo
ple on that Committee were colored people, is that correct?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. And yon say you were the president of the PTA at
the Cedar Street School? A. That’s right.
0. And you had a child there at that school at that time?
A. I did.
Q. And you and the members of the PTA of the Cedar
Street School felt that whoever worked over there ought to
be from that community? A. That’s right.
Q. And you told Mr. Smith that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he told you that he hoped that your PTA would
continue to support the school cafeteria, didn’t he? A. No,
he said he was hoping that the cafeteria would be run by
the Cedar Street PTA.
— 3 6 -
Q. You mean that he said that he expected the cafeteria
to be run by the school authorities? A. He said he hoped
it would be run by the PTA. I told him that the Cedar
Street PTA would not support it unless they would have
an opportunity to work with their own children and he said
that that was what he was planning on, was that the PTA
members would work in the cafeteria with their own chil
dren.
Q. That PTA has got how many members? A. Thirty
or forty.
Q. Who told you that you were rejected over there? A.
It was wrote to me in a latter.
Q. By whom? A. By the principal of the Cedar Street
School.
Q. Mr. Battle? A. Yes.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
437a
Q. And Mr. Battle is a colored man? A. That’s right.
Q. And he told you that you were rejected by the Com
mittee? A. After the first one was rejected we had another
meeting.
Q. I am asking you, first, about the letter. A. He said
in it that I was rejected; and we had another meeting and
it was carried back through again, carried back to the
Committee again and at this time there was a letter sent
to me saying that everybody had approved of me working
—3 7 -
in the cafeteria except Mr. Clint Fuller.
Q. Who wrote that letter? A. It came to me from Mr.
Battle, the principal of the Cedar Street School, that Mr.
Fuller said that he did not approve of me.
Q. Do you have that letter with you? A. No, I do not.
Q. But you still have it, do you? A. I looked for it the
other day and couldn’t find it, but it is around there some
place. If I have to find it, I can.
Q. After you were rejected by that Committee of colored
citizens—That is correct, that they were colored people?
A. Yes.
Q. After you were rejected by that Committee of colored
citizens and you got the the letter what did Mr. Battle say
in that letter, that first letter? A. Oh, the first letter
was right down the line with my name and Mrs. Dunston’s
name rejected, and the ones that was hired, showed who was
approved and that these others were rejected.
Q. Approved by the Committee or by the principal? A.
By the Committee.
Q- You did get that, in a letter? A. Yes, sir.
Q- A letter from Mr. Battle? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
—38—
438a
Q. And lie told you that your application was rejected by
a Committee of colored citizens ? A. He didn’t say colored
or white.
Q. But you knew that all members of that Committee
were colored? A. That they were colored, yes.
Q. And you knew that the principal, Mr. Battle, was
colored? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then after your first application was rejected you
say it went through again and then did you get a letter
stating that your application had been approved? A. That
it had been approved, yes, and that everybody had ap
proved of me excepting Mr. Clint Fuller and he said some
remarks that I didn’t approve of; that is what the letter
said, but still when I did get the job then I wouldn’t accept
it.
Q. You got the job in the cafeteria then? A. No, I
didn’t; I am still working at the same place.
Q. Haven’t you applied for a job in a plant at Hender
son within the last month or so, some job there? A. No,
I haven’t.
-3 9 -
Q. You haven’t applied for a job at any other place
during this last spring except for that school cafeteria job?
A. When he sent for me I told him I wasn’t able to work
that I was recommending Mrs. Leland Bullock, and if I
could I would go to work in the glass plant in Henderson,
but I never did go there and apply for no job.
Q. So, Mrs. Arrington, you did write a letter to Mr.
Battle that you had put in for the job in Henderson, didn’t
you? A. That’s right.
Q. And you expressed your appreciation for all that he
did for you, thanked him? A. That’s right.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
439a
Q. And yon told liim that yon would he glad to help in
any ther way that yon could? A. Yes.
Q. And this paper that I hand you is a copy of the
letter that yon wrote to Mr. Battle? A. Yes, it is.
Mr. Yarborough: I wish this letter marked De
fendant Exhibit No. 1 in this Arrington deposition,
copy of a letter dated April 28, 1966 from Mrs.
Irene Arrington addressed to Mr. Battle.
Q. So then, Mrs. Arrington, in April of 1966 while this
—40—
lawsuit was pending against the Franklin County Board
of Education you did apply for a job with that school over
there and you were willing to work there at the time you
applied? A. At the time I applied I was willing to work
there before it came out that Mr. Fuller said some remarks
about me at the Board that the principal didn’t approve of,
I really didn’t accept the job.
Q. But you told Mr. Battle in that letter to him that you
had put in for another job in Henderson? A. That’s
right.
Q. And you recommended somebody for the job? A. I
recommended Miss Nellie Bee Perry or Mrs. Bullock, Mrs.
Leland Bullock, and they accepted Mrs. Leland Bullock.
Q. One of the two whom you recommended? A. That’s
right,
Q. Will you look again, when you get home, and see if
you can find the letter that Mr. Bullock wrote you with
reference to what Mr. Clint Fuller had said? A. I certainly
will, but, after looking if I can’t find it I have got witnesses,
people that did read the letter, Reverend Dunston read
that letter, and he can tell you that I had it. When I got
the letter I let him read it.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
Deposition of Irene Arrington
- 4 1 -
Q. Was that letter written in longhand or was it typed?
A. It was typed.
Q. Mrs. Arrington, did yon receive free choice forms in
April of 1966? A. I did.
Q. Did you fill them out and return them? A. I did.
Q. Thereby requesting that your children be assigned to
the Riverside Negro School? A. I did.
Q. And you wrote a statement on the back of each of
those forms about your wanting your children to go to an
all white school? A. I did. But I was afraid of being
intimidated.
Q. And pursuant to that Mr. Smith sent Mr. Dunston
out there to your house? A. I know there was a white man
that came by on my job where I was working.
Q. Where you were working at Mrs. Parrish’s house?
A. Yes. It was 4:00 o’clock or around 3:30 then when lie
asked me to go down there, and I told him it was too late
that I had had no notice, that I had taken Mrs. Parrish
where she was to visit and I had to pick her up and bring
her home, that I couldn’t get there that day.
—42-
Q. Told you that we would like for you to meet with ns
at my office? A. Yes.
Q. And you told him that you couldn’t come that day and
he suggested another time? A. He said if I couldn’t come
that day would I please come there at 9:00 o’clock the
next morning, and I told him I would.
Q. Didn’t he tell you that we would send a car for you?
A. No, he didn’t say nothing about sending a car for me.
Q. Did you come there in your own car? A. Yes.
Q. And you met with us in my office? A. Yes.
441a
Q. And it was explained to you that your statement
would not indicate a fully free choice? A. That’s right.
Q. And that we would prefer another statement from
you? A. That’s right; that is what you told me.
Q. And I explained to you at the time about the different
schools, about the transportation, told you about five schools
from which transportation was close enough to your house
to take care of your children? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What five did I name? A. I don’t remember about
—43—
that.
Q. Didn’t I name Louisburg, Riverside, Gold Sand,
Perry’s and Epsom? A. I wouldn’t say you didn’t, but I
don’t have any remembrance of that.
Q. Do you recall that you were told by Mr. Smith, who
was there, that with respect to transportation you lived
in a place that was a sort of conjunction of bus routes, that
there was transportation for your children to any one of
those five schools, you remember that we talked about the
buses, don’t you? A. I remember that you told me that it
was my choice, that I could send them to any school that
I wanted to, hut as to the naming the schools I don’t recall
you naming the schools, but I wouldn’t say you didn’t,
but I don’t want to tell you nothing wrong.
Q. I told you that you had the choice of any school in the
county? A. You probably did.
Q. And you said you still wanted them to go to River
side? A. That’s right.
Q. And therefore you signed another form? A. Yes.
Q. And the nearest all white school was Gold Sand,
—44—
wasn’t it? A. I wouldn’t say that Gold Sand is nearer
than Louisburg.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
442a
Q. Louisburg was not an all white school this past school
year, was it, and yon know that, don’t you! A. Yes, but
that is the school I was assigning them for, the Louisburg
High School.
Q. You assigned them to Riverside, didn’t you! A. Yes;
but the one I assigned them to was Louisburg, before.
Q. The earlier one! A. Yes, sir.
Q. You know that this past year Louisburg High School
was not an all white school, you know that, don’t you! A.
I know there was one or two colored pupils, maybe 3.
Q. If then you had wanted them to go to an all white
school that meant Epsom or Gold Sand, didn’t it! A. No-
Yes, but I wanted them assigned to Louisburg High.
Q. You didn’t ask this year for them to go to Louisburg
High, did you? A. Not this year.
Q. You asked that your children go to Riverside, didn’t
you! A. Yes, but I would like for them to go to Louisburg
High.
Q. But you asked that they be assigned to Riverside?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mrs. Arrington, at that meeting we had in my
office, it was a cordial meeting, everyone was pleasant?
—45—
A. That’s right.
Q. It was a pleasant meeting. No one threatened you
in any way while you were there, did they? A. No.
Q. Everybody was friendly with each other from the time
you came until you went out? A. Yes, sir, that’s right.
Q. And you spoke to some people who were there that
knew you, spoke to them on your way out, I believe? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. So when you left that office on that date, so far as
Mr. Smith or myself could tell from you what you Wanted,
Deposition of Irene Arrington
443a
you wanted them to go to Riverside School? A. No, I
never wanted them to go to Riverside School.
Q. But from what we could learn from what you told us
that day, when I explained to you that they could go to
any school you picked out, you wanted them to go to
Kiverside? A. Yes, but I wanted them to go to Louisburg
High but I was afraid of being intimidated and that is
why I sent them to Riverside, but I didn’t want them to go
to Riverside.
Q. But from all that we had to go on from what you
said you wanted them to go to Riverside this coming year ?
A. That’s right.
Q. One of your boys I believe was courting? A. That’s
right.
Q. And you said that he might be out at night riding
around, while he was courting, didn’t you tell us that?
A. Yes.
Q. And you filled out another form and in a few days you
got your notice that they were to go to Riverside? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And at that time you were told that the Board could
not act on the first application because of your statement
about intimidation, that that wouldn’t look like it was a
free choice on your part and we told you that that was
the reason we wanted you to come into the office ? A. That’s
right, you did.
Q. And you don’t have any complaint about what was
done at that meeting on that date? A. No, I don't.
Q. Mrs. Arrington, with reference to these unfortunate
shootings, was it a shotgun, or a rifle, or a pistol that was
used? If you know. A. On the first shooting it was a
Deposition of Irene Arrington
444a
shotgun. On the last shooting it was a shotgun. The FBI
said it was shotgun shooting, small shot, and then there
was shooting of buckshots, and some of them said it was
- 4 7 -
shooting a rifle, but I don’t know what they were shooting.
Q. Did FBI men come to visit you quite a few times?
A. Yes, the FBI and the SBI, and the Sheriff came. The
last time, the last shooting he came that night, but the
first time he didn’t come that night.
Q. But he did come both times but one time he was late
getting there, didn’t come until the next day? A. Both
time he came, but the first time he was late.
Q. The FBI investigated the shootings, did they? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. But as far as you know they have never been able
to find any person that could be charged with that crime
or crimes? A. Not as far as I know, but I have learned
that they have been told, that the Sheriff had been told who
they were.
Q. How about the FBI? A. I don’t know whether it
has been told to the FBI or not.
Q. Sheriff Champion recommended that you tell the
Fedaral Bureau of Investigation people? A. Yes, sir.
But I haven’t seen the FBI since this man told it.
—48-
Q. How long ago was that? A. It has been about 2
months ago, I seen this person, yesterday I seen this person
Monday morning before I left home.
Q. The person that told the Sheriff? A. The person
that told the Sheriff.
Q. And you have been here since Monday morning and
Deposition of Irene Arrington
445a
have had a chance to talk to the FBI and you haven’t done
so? A. I haven’t talked to no FBI agent.
Q. Have you told Mr. Schwelb or any of the other govern
ment men that you have seen here, walking about here!
A. I haven’t seen any FBI men.
Q. But have you seen any of the government lawyers that
are here? A. Sure I have.
Q. Did you tell any of them that you wanted to get in
touch with the FBI? A. I give one of them the name.
Q. You did? A. Yes.
Q. So that information is in the hands of the FBI now,
as far as you know, and is certainly in the hands of the
government lawyers here, anyhow? A. Yes. It would be
in there when they give it to Sheriff Champion as far as I
- 4 9 -
know.
Q. You know that the name is in the hands of the govern
ment lawyers now? A. I know I told one of them.
Q. Do you know which one of them it was? A. I don’t
know his name.
Q. Is he here today in this room now? Was it Mr.
Schwelb? A. Wasn’t it you? (Addressing Mr. Schwelb)
Mr. Schwelb: I can’t testify for you.
A. I think this is the man, (Indicating Mr. Schwelb) if I
don’t make any mistake.
Q. This man sitting here (indicating Mr. Schwelb) who
has been asking you questions on this examination, he was
the one that you told it to, the one that has been asking you
questions? A. I think he is the man.
Q. And up until you found out the name recently of the
Deposition of Irene Arrington
446a
person yon are talking about you were not able to supply
the Sheriff or the Federal Bureau of Investigation or the
State Bureau of Investigation the name of any such suspect,
were you? A. No, I wasn’t.
Q. And up until 2 months ago you didn’t know of any
name that you could give to any of them, did you? A. No.
- 5 0 -
Q. And no member of your family as far as you know
could give them any name? A. No.
Q. And you say that one or more of the callers said it
was Gold Sand School calling? A. That’s right.
Q. Was it a man or a woman calling? A. Sometimes a
woman would call and then the next time probably a man
would call.
Q. And they would say that it was the Gold Sand School
calling? A. Yes, that it was the Gold Sand School.
Q. Did any of your children go to the Gold Sand School?
A. No.
Q. You lived in Sandy Creek Township? A. That’s
right.
Q. Did you go to the Gold Sand School to vote? A. Yes.
Q. You had been voting there for a number of years?
A. That’s right.
Q. And you would give in your taxes to Mr. Perry there
at the Gold Sand School, too? A. That’s correct.
Q. Do you know why the Gold Sand School was inter
ested in calling you? A. I would ask why and they just
—51-
said “Never mind” , and I would ask who it was and they
never would say, just said “Never mind” .
Q. And they never said why the Gold Sand School was
calling you? A. They never said why, that’s right.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
447a
Q. Now, I believe you said that Mr. Clint Fuller at a
meeting raised Ms voice to you? A. He sure did.
Q. And you say that Mr. Clint Fuller was mentioned in
Mr. Battle’s letter to you? A. That’s right.
Q. And I ask you again, will you try to find that letter?
A. Yes, I will find it if I can.
Q. Of course Mr. Fuller is the local editor of the local
newspaper and is a member of the County Board of Educa
tion? A. That’s correct.
Q. And you have met with the County Board a number of
times? A. Yes, I have one time.
Q. When school opened in 1963 the NAACP members,
and others possibly, had a protest demonstration at the
Riverside School, is that correct? A. That’s correct.
—52—
Q. And Mr. Charles McLean of the State NAACP was
there? A. That’s correct.
Q. And the Board had a meeting with a committee from
the people who were protesting and Mr. McLean was
present? A. Yes.
Q. And were you present at that meeting, that committee
meeting? A. I was.
Q. I believe the Board had said that it couldn’t meet with
all of you but that it would meet with a committee from
the protesting group, and the group elected or named a
committee and you were one of them? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who else was on that committee? A. Mr. Otis Gill,
and Mr. Willie Neal, and Mr. Herbert Rodwell, and Mr.
James Cheek, and the Reverend Mr. Dunston and Mrs.
Dunston, and maybe some more that I can’t remember right
now, and Mr. Carl Harris.
Q- That meeting was in the early fall right after school
Deposition of Irene Arrington
448a
opened in 1963, wasn’t it, that meeting of protest! A. I’m
not sure when it was directly.
Q. Wasn’t it right along about the time that Mr. Smith
took office and wasn’t it right after I took office! A. Mr.
Smith was in there, all right.
Q. Mr. Mitchell was in there before and he died some
- 5 3 -
months before! A. That’s correct.
Q. And in those meetings held along in there things were
finally worked out, things that were the cause of the meet
ing, and the boycott was called off! A. After that, yes, sir,
Q. After we had those negotiations! A. Yes.
Q. And an agreement was finally reached whereby the
boycott was called off! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And all the students went back to school! A. That’s
right.
Q. That boycott, that protest, was directed mainly against
Mr. Carl Harris, the principal! A. Against the Adminis
trator.
Q. You mean Mr. Harris! A. Mr. Harris, that’s right.
Q. And you had a complaint about a teacher who was
accused of having a bad moral character! A. That’s right.
Q. And that teacher was not rehired! A. That’s right.
Q. So that she is gone from there! A. That’s right.
—54—
Q. And they built a new cafeteria over there afterward!
A. That’s right.
Q. So that most of the things that were being protested
against were resolved satisfactorily and certainly to the
extent that the boycott was called o f f ! A . They were. It
were.
Q. What meeting was it that Mr. Fuller raised his voice!
Deposition of Irene Arrington
449a
A. The meeting that Mr. Fuller raised his voice in was the
meeting after the lateral transfer was rejected, and in this
meeting there was Mr. Booker T. Driver, and Mrs. Cop-
pedge and the Reverend Mr. Coppedge, and myself, were
there.
Q. At that first meeting at the time of the boycott it
looked like the Board of Education was trying the best it
could to meet all your requests? A. Yes.
Q. And Professor Harris was getting along in years and
didn’t have but a few years to go before he was to retire,
and that was mentioned? A. That’s right.
Q. And some of your committee members said that they
hated to see him leave his job as he was almost ready to
retire? A. I didn’t hear that.
Q. You wanted an assistant principal, thought that would
—55—
be satisfactory for awhile? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they did put in Mr. Conway? A. That’s right.
Q. So as a result the Board at those meeting granted
most of what was requested at that time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The boycott was really against Mr. Carl Harris and
it was agreed to put in an assistant principal because Mr.
Harris was mighty abrupt, was getting deaf, and there
were some other things that were brought out against him?
A. That’s right.
Q. And the Board worked on those things to get them
adjusted and they were there in a meeting one night until
around 11:00 o’clock. A. I believe so.
Q. And as a result of all that working on the things that
you requested the boycott was called off? A. That’s right.
Q. And none of those demands at that time pertained to
any integration at all? A. No.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
450a
Q. They had to with the cafeteria, and a teacher that you
considered had had morals, and to the administrator, Mr.
- 5 6 -
Harris ? A. That’s right.
Q. Now, Herbert Rodwell was not related to Mrs. Chris
tine Rodwell? A. He was related to her husband. He was
her husband’s brother.
Q. They all lived in the same community north of Louis-
burg, beyond you? A. Yes.
Q. And Mrs. Christine Eodwell lived in Sandy Creek
Township a little further from Louisburg than you live and
she is an elderly lady? A. She is a widow and is elderly.
Q. She has a lot more age on her than you have? A. Oh,
yes.
Q. And these children that she was involved in were not
her children? A. That’s right.
Q. They were not even her grandchildren but were may
be connected with her in some way? A. She raised them.
Q. And you know that she had a son who lived in Nor
folk or Portsmouth, lived in some place away from her?
A. Yes.
—57-
Q. Hid you know that her son came down to Louisburg
and along with Mr. Herbert Eodwell obtained the neces
sary information and withdrew their applications? A. I
heard her say they were withdrawed.
Q. And Mr. Herbert Rodwell helped in doing that? A.
She never told me about him. She said they were with
drawed.
Q. Now, Mr. St. Clarence Arrington was kin to your hus
band, you say? A. Yes, they were brothers.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
451a
Q. And you say his landlord sent a message; who was
his landlord? A. Carl Duke.
Q. Do you know where he lived? A. Yes, I do.
Q. Where was it that he lived? A. He lived about a-mile-
and-a-half from Moulton, between Moulton and Louishurg,
between Moulton and Eden’s store.
Q. Eight near Willie Ballentine’s? A. That’s right.
Q. He lived on Burrough Allen’s place? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So he lived about as far from Louishurg as you did?
A. I think he lived a little further from there than I do.
Q. You turn off by Eden’s store down there on 561 and
go by there on the old Allen School road? A. Yes, on the
—5 8 -
old Allen School road.
Q. On a dirt road? A. You go a little ways on the dirt
road but you don’t have to go very far on a dirt road.
Q. And you say the landlord sent the message by a ten
ant; was that Mr. Duke’s tenant or Mr. St. Clarence Ar
rington’s tenant? A. He was Mr. Duke’s tenant.
Q. And his name was Peter Branch? A. Yes.
Q. And he told you that Mr. Duke had told that to Mr.
St. Clarence Arrington? A. No, he said, “Mr. Duke told
me to come here and tell you” .
Q. He told Peter Branch to come and tell you? A. Yes,
to tell me not to put my feet on his premises no more, and
that something was going to happen to me, that I was try
ing to get people, Negroes, to enroll their children in the
white schools and for me not to come there no more, and
that meant that I couldn’t go to Mr. St. Clarence Arring
ton’s home.
Q. You had been going there from time to time? A. Yes,
to Mr. St. Clarence Arrington’s home, yes.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
452a
Q. And do yon know, as far as those applications are
- 5 9 -
concerned, that that was before the Civil Rights Act of
1964 was passed? A. We had signed for integration.
Q. Signed what? A. I think we had signed a petition,
a lot of ns signed a petition.
Q. Bnt that was before the Civil Rights Act of 1964,
wasn’t it? A. It hadn’t passed.
Q. That was in early 1964? A. That’s right.
Q. And the Civil Rights Act wasn’t passed until July
2nd, 1964, as I remember it, is that correct? A. I don’t
know; I wouldn’t say because I don’t remember.
Q. And the Board denied or rejected your application!
A. That’s right.
Q. Mrs. Arrington, you do not know that you pay taxes,
you do own property and land? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You own real estate? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you know that the people in Louisburg Township
—and you do not live in Louisburg Township but live in
Sandy Creek Township—pay a special tax for having built
—60-
the Louisburg School? A. No, I don’t know about that.
Q. You weren’t told that was the reason? A. No, I
wasn’t.
Q. Anyhow, you do not pay a special county school tax
for Louisburg Township, do you? A. No, sir.
Q. You pay just the tax levied in the county as a whole,
pay the county tax, that’s all, the ad valorem tax, one tax
bill? A. I think I pay school tax, so much for school tax,
and so much for road tax, and so much for property tax.
Q. But all of those items are in a countywide tax hill,
though, aren’t they? A. They are not in there all together.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
453a
It says in one place School Tax, and in another Poll Tax,
and Dog Tax, and they are in different spaces, have dif
ferent spaces for them on there, but whether they work
they together or not I couldn’t say.
Q. It is all one piece of paper, isn’t it? A. Yes, it is all
one piece of paper.
Q. Now, after you got notice in the early part of 1964
you didn’t do anything else about the matter at that time
did you? A. No, I didn’t.
—61—
Q. You didn’t come back to the Franklin County Board
of Education, did you? A. No, I didn’t.
Q. When you got the letter rejecting the application you
didn’t do anything else about it then? A. After I got the
letter I didn’t do anything else about it until the Civil
Rights bill passed.
Q. You knew Mr. Smith, didn’t you? A. I had seen him.
Q. You had been over and met with him while you were
on a committee in 1963, you were over there when he was
present? A. Sure.
Q. And you knew most of the other members of the
Board of Education, didn’t you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you saw me over there at the meeting and you
knew who I was? A. Sure.
Q. And you didn’t call Mr. Smith or didn’t call me, didn’t
call either one of us and speak to us about anything else
in connection with the rejection in May of 1964? A. No,
I didn’t ; I didn’t think there was any need.
—62—
Q- You did not do it, anyhow, did you? A. No, I didn’t.
Q- Then in May of 1965 you got lateral transfer notices?
A. That’s correct.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
454a
Q. And yon put in for a lateral transfer or transfers!
A. Put in just for Norine.
Q. For what grade? A. She was going to the 7th grade
then. They teach through the 7th grade.
Q. So, in the spring of 1965 you applied for your daugh
ter Norine to be transferred to the Louisburg school? A.
That’s correct.
Q. She was going from the 7th grade? A. Yes.
Q. That was not a free choice grade for that year, was
it? A. Well, when it came out we didn’t know whether
it was that way or not.
Q. You mean to say that when you got the transfer no
tices that you did not know what grades you could ask for
transfer in and yet you say you were very much interested
in school desegregation in 1965? A. I don’t know exactly
what you mean.
Q. In 1965 you were a member of the NAACP? A. Yes.
Q. And at that time you were very much interested in
—63-
obtaining school desegregation, weren’t you? A. Yes.
Q. And even though in May of 1965 you were a member
of the NAACP and had already filed an application for the
year before and had applied under the assignment act about
getting one of yonr children into the Louisburg school, yet,
when you got those notices in May of 1965 you did not know
enough about it or did not understand that information that
for that year free choice was only for four grades?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers, To the form of the
question.
A. When I filled out that paper I was thinking about the
lateral transfer when I filled that out, but nobody didn’t
Deposition of Irene Arrington
455a
explain it to us that she could not be moved or transferred
from Cedar Street School to Louisburg.
Q. You mean to say that no one had explained it to you!
A. No, they hadn’t. When the notices came out I thought
then that they were supposed to explain it to us and that
if it wasn’t for her that there was some way that they would
have notified-us that it wasn’t for her.
Q. So you didn’t seek any information, you just took
whatever was on the notice! A. Just took what came on
the notice.
—64—
Q. And made application, applied for Norine, your
daughter, for the Louisburg school! A. That’s right.
Q. And that was later rejected! A. That’s right.
Q. Norine wanted to get into what grade! A. The 7th
grade.
Q. You didn’t know that it just applied to four grades
for that school year, four grades only! A. No, sir, be
cause it wasn’t on the form.
Q. You didn’t know that it didn’t affect all grades! A.
No.
Q. You know that it does affect all grades now, don’t
you, for the coming school year, that free choice applies to
all twelve grades! A. That is what I have heard.
Q. Did you get a notice about the free choice in April of
this year! A. I did.
Q. That notice says that it applies to all twelve grades!
A. Yes.
Q. Have you read the notice or has someone just told you
about it! A. I read it in the notice.
—65—
Q- Mrs. Arrington where does Peter Branch live now!
Deposition of Irene Arrington
456a
A. He lives at the same place, in the same community,
lives in the Henry Hicks home house.
Q. Who owns that property? A. I don’t know, to tell
you the truth.
Q. You know Mr. Henry Hicks? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He is dead now? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He was a white man? A. That’s right.
Q. And some of his people, his widow or his children,
own that place? A. I don’t know who owns it.
Q. Didn’t Mr. Thurman Purdie buy part of that land or
an adjoining tract? A. I don’t know.
Q. You know Mr. Thurman Purdie? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He is a white man? A. That’s right.
Q. Has Peter Branch moved from the Duke place to the
Purdie place or the Henry Hicks place since the time he
brought you that message? A. I don’t think so.
— 66-
Q. He was a tenant on Mr. Duke’s place? A. Yes, sir,
He is living on the same place now.
Q. You say he is living on the same place now? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Since he brought you that message he has still beer
living on the same place and is living at the same place
now? A. If I make no mistake that is correct.
Q. Now as to St. Clarence Arrington, where does he live!
A. He lives on the Kittrel route.
Q. Do you know who he lives with? A. No, I don’t.
Q. Is he still farming? A. I think he works in a Hen
derson factory.
Q. At that time, in 1964, he was then working in a tobacco
factory at Henderson, wasn’t he? A. If he were he va-
supposed to have helped this man house his crop.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
457a
Q. Was he farming? A. He didn’t farm for himself.
Q. Don’t yon know that he was working in a tobacco
factory, Taylor’s tobacco factory? A. I know there is a
glass factory over there, and Taylor’s tobacco factory, and
a lot of factories, hut which one he was working in I don’t
know.
—67—
Q. He worked in the Taylor tobacco factory part-time
during tobacco season, didn’t he? A. I believe so.
Q. Now, didn’t St. Clarence Arrington tell yon that Pro
fessor Mangrum brought him that form—Yon know who
I’m talking about, Professor Mangrum of Franklinton?
A. Yes, I know him.
Q. He used to he a school principal, didn’t he? A. I
don’t know.
Q. St. Clarence Arrington said that Mr. Mangrum
brought him this form and that he thought he was signing
a petition against the school principal, Carl Harris, didn’t
he? A. No. Mr. Mangrum didn’t bring it to him.
Q. Who did bring it to him? A. I don’t know, but Mr.
Mangrum didn’t bring it to him.
Q. You know that Mr. Mangrum notarized it, don’t you?
A. I do.
Q. Did you go to him? A. That’s right, in Franklinton.
I took it myself to him.
Q. Did you take St. Clarence Arrington to Franklinton?
A. Yes, and taken his wife.
Q. St. Clarence Arrington didn’t sign it, did he ? A. Yes,
he did sign it.
Q- He didn’t sign it before the Notary Public, did he?
A. No, he didn’t sign it before the Notary Public, but he
signed it.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
458a
Deposition of Irene Arrington
- 68-
Q. But lie didn’t acknowledge it before the Notary Public!
A. No, he didn’t.
Q. You know that, you took his wife over there? A. I
took him and his wife over there.
Q. How about Mrs. Christine Rodwell, did you take her
over there? A. She went with me too.
Q. All of you went through Louisburg to get to Frank-
linton to get to see Mr. Mangrum? A. Mr. Mangrum
wasn’t in Franklinton; he was in a private home when I
found him.
Q. In Louisburg? A. Yes.
Q. You say you “found” him, do you mean you had to
look for him? A. He knewed we was coming.
Q. To sign papers? A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, do you know what happened to the Mayo chil
dren with respect to the school they were attending? A.
They dropped out.
Q. Do you know where they are now? A. One of them
is up here in Raleigh, and one is in Henderson.
—69-
Q. Are they big enough to work? A. Sure, they are
large enough to work.
Q. You say they dropped out of school, left Mrs. Rod-
well’s and that one of them is now in Henderson and one
is in Raleigh? A. That’s right.
Q. Sandy Jones is your father? A. That’s correct.
Q. And the child named Charles Jones, that is his grand
son? A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mrs. Arrington, at the time that you were in my
office last May with Mr. Smith about these forms it was
459a
all right with ns, but you signed your father’s name By
you! A. That’s right.
Q. Did you know that the Department of Health, Educa
tion and Welfare sent out a form called Guidelines and
that the Franklin County Board of Education accepted that,
contracted to abide by the provisions wherein it was pro
vided that there would be no publication of any names, and
that as far as the Board is concerned it has done everything
in its power to prevent such publication of names ? A. Yes.
Q. So when you filled out the forms you knew at that
—7 0 -
time that the names would not come out in the newspaper?
A. I don’t know whether I knowed it or not exactly when
I filled out the forms but I learned it pretty soon after
then, if I didn’t know it before, and I think you told me
in the office that it wouldn’t come out in the paper, wouldn’t
he published in the paper.
Q. And it hasn’t been published, the names have not
been published, have they? A. I haven’t seen it.
Q. Do you take the Franklin Times? A. I do.
Q. Do you say that you still want your daughter to go
to a white school, to attend a white school? A. I want
her to go to a white school, but I am still afraid of the
freedom of choice plan. She wants to go.
Q. And the other children they want to go to Biver-
side? A. Correct.
Q. And your daughter Norine still wants to go to the
white school? A. She does.
Q. Do you know that pursuant to meetings held between
the Judge and the lawyers on both sides of this case that
it has been agreed that the Judge may enter an Order,
Deposition of Irene Arrington
460a
Deposition of Irene Arrington
- 7 1 -
and that the Judge has entered an Order pursuant to that
agreement—
—Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
Q. That pursuant to a meeting with the lawyers, and
without a trial, the Judge has entered an Order today say
ing that there would be a new freedom of choice for all of
the colored children in the Franklin County school system!
A. I have heard that.
Q. So when the new freedom of choice forms are re
ceived by you within the next few days are you still
going to leave it to your children to pick the schools they
want to go to? A. I would still send mine to Riverside.
I wouldn’t change and send them to Louisburg not under
the freedom of choice plan because it is not going to work
Q. You have already decided that, in your opinion, it is
not going to work? A. Yes, I am quite sure it won’t.
Q. You knew that last February or March? A. No, I
didn’t know it until after I had been intimidated so much
and then I found out that it really wasn’t going to work.
—72-
Q. The intimidation that you refer to took place in
1965? A. Yes, and it was after then that I found out that
it wasn’t going to work.
Q. After 1965? A. After I was being intimidated.
Q. The intimidation that you are talking about is the
two shootings that took place in 1965 and your getting a
lot of telephone calls in between the two shootings? A.
Yes.
461a
Q. And after the second shooting yon also got some tele
phone calls? A. That’s right.
Q. And that is the intimidation that yon are speaking of,
those things yon have stated? A. Yes.
Q. And all of that occurred in 1965, didn’t it? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Yon were willing in March or in February of 1966
to even then have your child transferred in the middle
of the year? A. Yes.
Q. You went to that meeting in the courthouse, didn’t
you, a meeting in the courthouse in Louisburg when Mr.
- 7 3 -
Fink, from the Department of Justice, was there? A. Yes,
I was.
Q. A meeting that was held upstairs in the courtroom
one morning? A. That’s right.
Q. And at that time Mr. Fink asked each one of you to
still decide where you wanted your children to go to school?
A. Yes.
Q. And you either signed a paper or made a statement
about that, didn’t you? A. I signed a statement as to
what?
Q. Did you sign anything there that morning? A. Yes,
I did.
Q. And that was for one of your children, Norine, to
go to the Louisburg school? A. That’s right.
Q. And that was even in the middle of the school year?
A. Yes, it was.
Q- That was in March? A. I can’t remember.
Q. Anyway, that was after you had come here to Raleigh
for a hearing? A. I had been to Clinton.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
462a
Q. You had been to Clinton, and you didn’t come here
—74-
to Raleigh? A. I didn’t come here to Raleigh but I
knew they had a meeting here.
Q. And it was after that hearing here, the meeting with
the Judge, that Mr. Fink called on you all to meet one
morning in the courthouse in Louisburg? A. That’s right.
Q. And you first went to the post office and found they
didn’t have room for you and then you came over to the
courthouse, do you remember that? A. Yes, I do.
Q. And Mr. Fink explained to you about what the Judge
wanted to know, about the Judge wanting to know whether
or not in the middle of the year you wanted to change
your children from whatever school they were going to
to Louisburg? A. I don’t remember the exact words that
he used.
Q. But that in substance was what he told you? A. I
think so.
Q. Am I stating fairly and accurately about what was
done on that occasion? A. Oh, yes, at the time of the
meeting, that is correct.
Q. And I was not at that meeting but a few minutes, was
I? A. That’s correct.
Q. I simply turned on the lights and I left there then!
A. That’s right.
—75-
Q. And at that time you signed a paper or agreed that
you wanted one of your children to go to Louisburg? A.
That’s right.
Q. And that was either in February or March, wasn’t
it? A. Yes.
Q. And then in April, within a month or two later yon
Deposition of Irene Arrington
463a
signed for them all to go to Riverside? A. I don’t know
exactly the date that I did sign for them all to go to River
side,
Q. You don’t know whether it was in April or May, but
you do know that you signed for them to go to Riverside?
A. Yes, I signed for them to go to Riverside.
Q. And you signed within the time that you were sup
posed to after you got the notice, didn’t you? A. I got
the notice and I kept it about 3 weeks and then I signed it.
Q. You signed it within the 30 days set forth in it? A.
Oh, yes.
Q. So it was about the 1st of May and before the time
that it ran out on May 4th that you signed it?
Mr. Chambers: I request that counsel show the
witness a copy of what she signed.
Mr. Yarborough: I don’t have a copy.
Q. But, Mrs. Arrington, you did sign it during the
—7 6 -
period set forth in that letter or notice, did you not? A.
Before the time ran out, yes.
Q. Within the time, whatever it was? A. Yes.
Q. And you were of the same mind in February or March
that you were in April or May, as the case may be?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
Q. You were of the same mind in April or May that you
had been in February or March?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
Q- Did you change your mind between those dates?
Deposition of Irene Arrington
464a
Deposition of Irene Arrington
Objection, to the form, by Mr. Chambers.
Q. Did you change your mind between those dates'? I
am trying to find out what happened, Mrs. Arrington. A.
Ask the question again.
Q. You said a few minutes ago that you didn’t think that
freedom of choice will work? A. That’s right.
Q. Well, did you change your mind about that between
February or March and April or May? A. You mean did
I in February or March sign for her?
Q. This is my question: Did you feel the same way about
it in February and March as you did in April or May?
- 7 7 -
Objection, to the form, by Mr. Chambers.
Q. That is, about the freedom of choice not working.
A. No, I didn’t.
Q. How did you feel then? A. At the time I didn’t think
really that so many people had been intimidated until 1
got up here in court this week and saw all these people
I didn’t think so many had been intimidated until this week,
didn’t think so many had been intimidated.
Q. But what you thought or felt about school desegrega
tion or freedom of choice, you felt that before you knew,
before you knew all this other stuff and all you felt the
way you did before that, before you found out about all this
other this week? A. At the time I signed I would have
let her went there but now I just wouldn’t let her go on
freedom of choice.
Q. Is that because of what you found out here this week?
A. Part of it.
Q. And so you are now saying that whatever the court
465a
has ordered done you are not going to ask that any one
of your children be assigned to the Louisburg school this
coming year1? A. Not on the freedom of choice plan, no,
I wont.
—78—
Q. Do you want freedom of choice to work!
Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
Mr. Chambers: I instruct her not to answer that
question.
Q. Mrs. Arrington, what positions have you held with
the NAACP! A. You mean holding office?
Q. Yes. Holding an office or acting on a committee, or
anything of that sort. A. Not any.
Q. Did you ever go to any of the meetings at Rowland’s
Chapel? A. Yes.
Q. You know where that is? A. Sure.
Q. And you know the Reverend B. B. Felder? A. Sure;
but I don’t know him too well, but I know him when I
see him.
Q. He frequently attends meetings there at that Chapel,
doesn’t he, or didn’t he ? A. I don’t know how many times
he has been there.
Q. But sometimes he did attend meetings there? A.
Yes.
Q. Were you in a meeting there at that Chapel sometime
in March or April of this spring, a meeting of the NAACP
local chapter at which time someone suggested or said
—79—
that parents of colored children should not choose a for
merly predominantly white school, because that would
Deposition of Irene Arrington
466a
wreck this case, or something to that effect? A. I never
heard of it.
Q. You never told that to anybody? A. Are you ac
cusing me of saying it?
Q. I am only asking you if you ever heard anybody
make that statement as having heard anything like that
said at a meeting over there, or did you ever tell anybody
that it was said there ? A. I haven’t ever even heard those
words before.
Q. What words do you mean? A. What you have just
said or asked me.
Q. You have never heard anybody make a statement
that that was said at such a meeting over there at that
chapel, that such a statement was made? A. No, I haven’t.
Q. Mrs. Arrington, what position, if you know, does
the Reverend B. B. Felder hold in the NAACP? A. I
don’t even know, to tell you the truth.
Q. He doesn’t live in Franklin County, does he? A. I
don’t know that, either.
Q. Have you ever heard him speak at one of those meet
ings that you attended there? A. I guess I have heard
him speak, but what he said I couldn’t tell you.
—80-
Q. You have heard him make a speech to the group?
A. I have heard him make a speerh.
Q. And you say you don’t remember what he said?
A. No, I don’t remember.
Q. Now, any intimidation that you were subjected to
ended with the shootings? A. That’s right.
Q. Now, while I know you had no part in it, I ask you,
wasn’t there a whiskey still broken up by officers some-
Deposition of Irene Arrington
467a
where near yonr house? I don’t mean right at it, but in
that vicinity, in the vicinity of where you house is. A.
Yes, there were.
Q. And didn’t the officers haul the still out close by
your house! A. Did they haul it out?
Q. Didn’t the officers come out there and bring it in, or
whatever happened? A. I didn’t hear them.
Q. Iiow far was it from your house? If you know.
A. I don’t know how far it was.
Q. It was close to your house out there at a place behind
your house or east of your house somewhere? A. East.
—81—
Q. Your house generally faces west as it sets beside of
the road? A. It was north back toward between my house
and Louisburg.
Q. Mrs. Arrington, how much time was there between
that and the end of that shooting at your house? A. It
was over a week afterward, or a week.
Q. The end of the shooting was a week after the still
breaking? A. I don’t know exactly but I reckon about
a week or two after then.
Q. Now, you and your husband didn’t own the farm but
you owned a house on the lot? A. That’s correct.
Q. How much lot did you have, how much land, an acre
or more? A. An acre of land.
Q. Did you all buy that from the Parrishes? A. Mr.
Parrish bought it for us.
Q. Made the deed to you? A. Made the deed to us.
Q. And the lady you worked for, you waited on her,
took care of her? A. That’s correct.
—82—
Q. How long have you lived there at that place? A.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
468a
My husband was 53 years old, and he was horn on the
place.
Q. The same house? A. Not in the same house. He
was born on the same man’s farm and in another house.
Q. On the Parrish plantation, a part of the Puller land?
A. That’s right.
Q. How long have you all had that house? A. Around
15 or 16 years.
Q. And your father has his house on the same land?
A. It is on my lot.
Q. And your house is on a one acre lot? A. That’s
right.
Q. And Mr. Ferrell Parrish and Mrs. Parrish deeded
that lot to you all? A. That’s right.
Q. And your husband was a carpenter? A.No, he wasn’t
anything but a farmer.
Q, Now, after the shootings he and his family expressed
sympathy, you said that some of your white neighbors
expressed sympathy for you? A. Some of them, not too
many.
Q. But some of them did who lived closeby in your
neighborhood? A. That’s right.
— 8 3 -
Q. And some of them had children that were going to
school, and some were going to the Louisburg schools,
and some of them spoke to you in sympathy? A. Yes.
Q. Some of your white neighbors? A. Yes.
Q. And one white man gave you a new glass for your
car that cost $90.00? A. That’s right.
Q. Did any other help come to you in a financial way,
such as money or anything? A. No, never has.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
469a
Q. So the only thing of a material value that came to you
was the glass from Mr. Fuller! A. That’s right.
Q. Was your car otherwise damaged except for the
glass? A. There were bullet holes in it that went in the
back of it and through it, three or four bullet holes large
enough for you to stick your finger in them.
Q. Did you get the car repaired? A. No, I haven’t never
repaired it.
Q. Now, you are a party to this lawsuit? A. Yes, I
am.
—84—
Q. And this suit was first brought to compel the Franklin
Board of Education to put your children in the Louis-
burg school during the 1965-66 school year? A. That was
brought in.
Q. I ask you if this suit wasn’t brought to compel the
Franklin County Board of Education to put your children
during the 1965-66 school year, or your child, in the Louis-
burg school? A. I didn’t see it that way. We were asking
for integration and we was rejected. I would say it was
just because we didn’t think we were getting justice from
the Board of Education.
Q. Well, you say you didn’t think you were getting justice
from the Board; they did put some colored children into
white schools this past year, didn’t they? A. Three I
think was put in in Louisburg.
Q. Do you know how many were first put in there or
assigned? A. I think it was around 60 was assigned there
but a lot of them, or some of them were withdrawed.
Q. I ask you if you don’t know that this suit, if you
don’t know that this lawsuit, that in the bringing of it
Deposition of Irene Arrington
470a
one of the main objectives was to compel the Board of
Education to put your child into the Louisburg school
during the 1965-66 school year? A. Oh, that could be.
Q. You know that that was what the suit was brought for,
- 8 5 -
don’t you! A. Yes.
Q. And you say that you went to one hearing in Clinton,
and that you knew that another hearing was held here
in Raleigh! A. That’s right.
Q. And you were called on by a government lawyer, Mr.
Fink, you remember him, do you? A. Yes, I do.
Q. You were called on by him to make another decision
in February or March as to whether you still then wanted
to transfer your child to the Louisburg school, that is cor
rect? A. I don’t know whether it was in February or
March.
Q. I ’m not sure either as to the month, but it was in one
of those months, about that time of year, wasn’t it? A.
That’s right.
Q. At that time you were called upon then to make an
other decision, asked whether or not you wanted the trans
fer then? A. Yes.
— 86-
Q. And you made a decision then that you wanted your
daughter to go to the Louisburg school? A. To Louis
burg?
Q. To the Louisburg school? A. That was Riverside,
wasn’t it?
Q. I ’m talking now about your decision made in Feb
ruary or March to transfer from Riverside to Louisburg
in the middle of the school year. A. That’s right.
Q. The one that Mr. Fink was handling? A. Yes.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
471a
Q. You made that decision or request to put her in the
Louishurg school at that time of year? A. Yes.
Q. And a month or 6 weeks later, a short while later,
freedom of choice to all pupils in all grades was granted
by the Board of Education, was it not? A. That’s right.
Redirect Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Mrs. Arrington, I think you have testified that you
do not think that freedom of choice will work, have you
not? A. That’s right.
—87—
Q. Why do you say that, why won’t it work? A. It
didn’t work before.
Q. It didn’t work before because of what? A. Intimida
tion.
Q. You thought freedom of choice would not work so
you asked that your children be assigned to Riverside?
A. Yes, to Riverside.
Q. Now I believe you testified that you know about the
Judge entering an Order, the Order of the Court? A.
That’s right.
Q. Have you been told the details of that? A. No,
I haven’t.
Q. Have you been told, for instance, that the judge has
issued an order for a new freedom of choice period and
that during the freedom of choice period the white people
and the Negroes, the lawyers for all the parties, the negro
leaders and the white leaders, are asked to work together
to make the freedom of choice period work, have you
been told that before? A. No, I haven’t.
Q. Now, if that is the fact, are you prepared to try to
make the new freedom of choice work, as the Judge has
Deposition of Irene Arrington
472a
asked us all to do, will you do your best to make it work?
— 88-
A. Oh yes, I would do my best.
Q. Do you still have some question as to whether it will
work even then? A. I still don’t feel like it would work
but I would try my best, but I don’t feel like it will work.
Q. But you have testified that you woud try? A. I
would try, but I still don’t feel like it would work, not in
Franklin County.
Q. Now, Mrs. Arrington, Mr. Yarborough asked you
some questions about you trying to get your girl into the
Louisburg school in about February or March and then
asked you about changing your mind and sending her to
Biverside in the spring; now, Mrs. Arrington, do you know
whether the court ruled that your child would be allowed
to go to the Louisburg school or wouldn’t be allowed, do
you know which way the Court ruled in the middle of
the year at that hearing in Clinton or at the hearing here!
A. I really have forgot the exact words they said and I
rather not try to explain that.
Q. Did the Judge say that he would allow your child
into the Louisburg school or did he say that she wouldn’t
be allowed to go to the Louisburg school? A. I think
he said that he wouldn’t allow it.
—89-
Q. Did that discourage you or—
—Objection, by Mr. Yarborough.
Q. Were you pleased or sorry about that? A. I was
sorry about that.
Q. And you say that since you have been here aronnd
the court that you have learned of many other intimida
tions? A. Yes.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
473a
Q. And yon also learned about such intimidations when
you went to Clinton? A. Yes.
Q. Where there were other Negroes, when you went to
Clinton! A. Yes.
Q. You talked to them and you learned about other in
timidations? A. Yes.
Q. Learned that from people that were there in Clinton?
A. Yes.
Redirect Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mrs. Arrington, what is your objection to freedom of
choice as a plan for assigning pupils to schools? A. "What
is my objection?
Q. Yes. A. I really think that at the time when they start
to school and it is put in the papers that we have freedom
—90—
of choice we are going to have intimidation. I just really
am afraid, and that is my feeling, just afraid to.
Q. What kind of a plan would you like to see the Board
install, would you like to see it set up on a traffic plan of
assignment, that is, to go to the nearest school? A. I
would like to see the School Board assume the respon
sibility, that is what I -would like, I would like for the
Board to take that responsibility.
Q. You think that would take the pressure off the
parents?
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To the form.
A. I do.
Q. This paper that I hand you is a copy of a letter you
wrote, and which has already been marked as an exhibit
in your deposition, is that right? A. That’s right, it is.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
474a
Mr. Chambers: I wish to introduce in evidence as
Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 1 in this deposition copy of
the letter written by Mrs. Arrington, dated April 28,
1966, which letter has already been identified as
Defendants Exhibit No. 1, in this deposition, I wish
it now identified as Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 1 in this
deposition.
—91—
Q. Mrs. Arrington, did you sign a petition that was
presented to the Franklin County Board of Education in
1963 requesting the desegregation of the schools'? A. I
did.
Q. Back in 1963, then, you were attempting to get the
Franklin County Board of Education to desegregate the
schools'? A. That’s right.
Q. Did you attempt to get the Franklin Board of Educa
tion to desegregate the schools of the County in 1964 and
1965? A. I did.
Q. Was there a written request presented to the School
Board requesting a change of administrator? A. Yes, and
there was a lot of things, I guess about 12 or 13 things
that were carried before the Board, asked them to con
sider them.
Q. Was that presented in writing to the Board? A. It
was a written request, yes.
Q. Now, you told about the shootings in June; have you
heard of any incidents from that June until May of 1966?
A. I wasn’t in them but I heard of threats and intimida
tions.
—92—
Q. Did you hear of any in July of this year?
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To the form.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
475a
Deposition of Irene Arrington
A. Some cross-burnings.
Q. You have heard of such incidents in July of 1966!
A. I have.
Q. What were they? A. I heard of a lot of cross-burn
ings which were published in the papers, and bombing
of a church, and shooting, and all that stuff.
Further Redirect Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Mrs. Arrington, going back to the incidents connected
with St. Clarence Arrington, for just a moment, and the
other man that you said came to see you and brought
the message, told you that you had been threatened, did
you believe him!
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough.
A. Yes, I did.
Q. You did believe it! A. Yes.
Q. And when that other person came and told you that
you weren’t welcome over there you believed him!
Objection, by Mr. Tucker.
Q. Do you know James Cheek! A. Yes.
Q. Does he have a son that attended the Louisburg
school! A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever hear of any incident occurring to Mr.
Janies Cheek after his son had attended the school in
Louisburg!
Objection, by Mr. Tucker.
476a
Deposition of Irene Arrington
A. Yes.
Q. What sort of an incident was that ? A. I heard about
oil being poured in his well.
Q. Do you know the Reverend Mr. Dunston? A. Yes,
I do.
Q. Do you know whether or not he applied to get his
children into white schools? A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did you ever hear of any incident that happened to
the Reverend Dunston after he did that? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what that was ? A. I do.
Q. What was it? A. Reverend Dunston had nails put
in his driveway and he had a truck or a car to come to his
yard and somebody in it hollered to his children to tell
—94-
him that he wouldn’t be living tomorrow, or something
like that.
Q. Do you know the Reverend Plummer Alston? A.
Yes.
Q. He is the pastor at the Redbud Church? A. That’s
correct.
Q. Do you know what happened to his church in March
of 1966? A. I do.
Q. What happened to it? A. It got bombed out, torn
all to pieces.
Q. Can you think of any incidents that have happened
since August of 1965 of that kind? A. I know that the
Reverend Mr. Coppedge had a cross burned at his house,
saw in the papers that he had crosses burned at his house,
and I saw in the paper where a cross was burned on the
Board of Education lawn. That’s all I can think of right
now.
Q. You are not sure whether there were others or not,
is that right?
477a
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough.
A. I didn’t know that there had been such a lot of them
before I came up here this week.
Recross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. In spite of those different things you knew about in
—95—
February or March of 1966 you still requested that your
child, Norine, be assigned to the Louisburg school in Feb
ruary or March of 1966, in the middle of the year? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. You were even then willing, in spite of all the threats
and in spite of what had been done to the Dunstons, and
in spite of the threats made against you earlier, and in,
spite of the threats that you had heard about from other
people, threats and intimidation of other people, you were
still willing then to put her in the Louisburg school? A.
Yes.
Q. You still in February or March, and right in the
middle of the year, requested that she go to the Louisburg
school, be transferred there ? A. That’s right.
Q. And then in April you said you wanted her to go to
Riverside? A. That’s right.
Q. Mrs. Arrington, something has been said here about
a petition which was presented to the Board of Education
at the time of the boycott, and I ask you if a list wasn’t
made up at the committee meeting with the Board of
Education and in their office, ask you if it wasn’t made up
—96—
there by Mr. McLean and others there in the office and if
it wasn’t mimeographed there and distributed, the list of
Deposition of Irene Arrington
478a
12 demands or requests? A. I don’t remember about that,
don’t remember that it was.
Q. Didn’t Mr. McLean do the writing for those meet
ings and didn’t he preside in behalf of the colored people
at those meetings as a rule? A. I don’t know, I don’t
remember where that list was made up at.
Q. You would say, wouldn’t you, that those twelve de
mands presented at the time of the boycott to the Board
were resolved to the extent that the boycott was called off?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know that the Government through the Office
of Health, Education and Welfare through their Office of
Education has issued guidelines allowing desegregation
over a period of three years, three years of freedom of
choice over a three year period? A. I have heard some
thing about it.
Q. Starting the freedom of choice period in 1965-66
school year, starting, rather, in 1964, 1965 and 1966? A.
No, I didn’t know that.
Q. Did you know that the Franklin County Board of
- 9 7 -
Education had adopted those guidelines and has even
moved it up one year to complete freedom of choice in
1966-67, did you know that? A. No, I didn’t know that.
Q. You did not know that freedom of choice in Franklin
County right now is for all grades ? A. No, I didn’t know
that.
Q. Now, you have just been told here that the Judge has
signed an Order to the effect that all colored parents
in the Franklin County school system are to have another
freedom of choice period starting within the next few
days haven’t you? A. That’s whan I have been told,
yes.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
479a
Q. Are you prepared now to say what schools you will
pick for your children when that freedom of choice form
comes to you? A. Riverside.
Q. You still expect to send them to Riverside school? A.
Yes.
Q. You are going to send them to Riverside in spite
of what Mr. Schwelb told you about the Order the Judge
is signing? A. Yes, because I’m afraid not to send them
there.
Re-Redirect Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Mrs. Arrington, you said you did not know about
the guidelines issued by the Health, Welfare and Educa
tion Department covering desegregation over a period of
- 9 8 -
three years of freedom of choice; do you know what the
court has said about immediate desegregation unless there
were administrative difficulties?
Objection, by Mr. Tucker.
A. No, I didn’t know about that.
Q. Did you know that Mr. Smith testified at the last
hearing in this case there were administrative difficulties
requiring a slower pace of desegregation?
Objection, by Mr. Tucker.
A. No, I didn’t know that.
Q- Mrs. Arrington, Mr. Yarborough asked you just now
if you knew about the Board of Education of Franklin
County doing certain things with respect to desegregation
of the schools in the County; I now show you a copy of
Deposition of Irene Arrington
480a
the Franklin Times for July 26, 1966—this is a copy of the
Franklin Times for that date, isn’t it? A. Yes, it is.
Q. Please read aloud the headlines on this article here
in this issue of the Franklin Times, just read that headline,
please.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, “It speaks for it
self.”
Q. Go ahead and read that headline out loud for the
record, please. A. “HEW denies school plan approval.”
- 9 9 -
Re-Redirect Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Schwelb told you a little while ago about the new
freedom of choice plan which is coming out now; did you
fully understand what he said about it? A. Not fully.
Q, Well, under the plan, as Mr. Schwelb told you, the
Court is requesting that the litigants in this case, the
attorneys representing the parties, all parents white and
negro, cooperate to see if the freedom of choice plan will
work, and you told him, I believe, that you would cooperate
to the best of your ability to make it work, did you? A.
Yes. And, if I may ask you a question, will the forms under
this new freedom of choice plan be sent out to all white
and negro parents?
Q. No, the Order requires that the forms will be sent
only to the parents of Negro children in Franklin County
during this new period of freedom of choice. A. All right
Q. And I understand from you now that you will do all
that you can to make the plan work? A. Yes, I will, hut
I still would be afraid to send my children to the Louis-
burg school, my child to the Louisburg High School.
481a
—100—
Q. I believe your answer to Mr. Yarborough with respect
to sending your child during this new freedom of choice
period to Riverside was based—
—Objection, by Mr. Yarborough.
Question Withdrawn.
Q. You answered Mr. Yarborough to the effect that you
would again send your child to Riverside during this new
period of freedom of choice? A. That’s right.
Q. Why will you send your child to Riverside? A. Be
cause I would still be afraid.
Further Re-Redirect Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Mrs. Arrington, after these depositions are over, af
ter the hearing here, if you get a chance to do so will you
agree to consider very carefully that decision, after talking
with the lawyers informerly about what the Court Order
says? A. I will.
Q. You will think the matter over very carefully before
you decide, not decide quickly? A. I will.
Re-Recross Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mrs. Arrington, you were not afraid to pick the
—101—
Louisburg school as late as last February or March, were
you? A. I was afraid then but I had already asked for
it and they rejected it, and if it was still that I would still
carry it out the best I could.
Q- You say you were afraid? A. Yes, I was afraid,
hut I was going to do it.
Deposition of Irene Arrington
482a
Q. The government lawyer Mr. Fink was there then,
wasn’t he, when yon made that decision? A. Yes. I made
that on my own.
Q. When yon made that decision in the courthouse he
was right there and yon all signed those things while he
was there, didn’t yon? A. Yes, we did.
Further Re-Redirect Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Mrs. Arrington, did Mr. Fink make you do anything?
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To the form.
A. No, sir.
Q. Did Mr. Fink put any pressure on you? A. No.
Further Re-Redirect Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Now, Mrs Arrington, when you were advised back in
February or March by Mr. Fink and the others, as to
your decision then as to where you wanted your child
— 102—
to go to school, whether you wanted to have her trans
ferred in the middle of the school year, were you told
by Mr. Fink or any of them that it would be under pro
tection of an Order of the Court? A. No, I wasn’t.
Mr. Schwelb: Mrs. Arrington, we are advising you
now that this new freedom of choice plan will he
under the protective Order of the Court.
Mrs. Arrington: All right.
(Witness Excused)
Deposition of Irene Arrington
.
.
.
.
.
.
r
■
..... 7’ -- ... -zs v -■ ._. *___iv:Mmm . m r ■ '
MEILEN PRESS INC. — N. Y. C.°^ip»=219
In t he
I m t p f c S t a t e s ( t a r t o f A p p m l z
F ourth Circuit
No. 11,794
Harold Douglas Coppedge, a minor, et al.,
and
United States o f A merica, etc., Appellees,
The Franklin County Board of Education, et al.,Appellants.
appeal f r o m t h e d is t r ic t c o u r t o f t h e u n i t e d s t a t e s f o r t h e
EASTERN DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA
RALEIGH DIVISION-CIVIL
APPELLEES’ APPENDIX
John Doar
Assistant Attorney General
Frank E. Schwelb
Francis H. Kennedy
Department of Justice
Washington, D.C. 20530
Attorneys for
Plaintiff s-lntervenors-Appellees
Jack Greenberg
James M. Nabrit, III
Robert Belton
James N. F inney
10 Columbus Circle
New York, New York 10019
J. LeV onne Chambers
405y2 East Trade Street
Charlotte, North Carolina
Conrad O. Pearson
2031/2 East Chapel Hill Street
Durham, North Carolina
Attorneys for
Plaintiff s-Appellees
I N D E X
Volume I
PAGE
Complaint...................................................................... 2a
Answer ....................................................................... - 10a
Exhibit “A” Attached to Answer—General
Statement of Policies, etc. (Omitted) ............ 16a
Order............................................................................. 17a
Complaint in Intervention ........................................ 18a
Verified Answer to Complaint in Intervention.......... 26a
Transcript of Hearing on Motion for Preliminary
Injunction.................................................................. 35a
Motion to Delay Injunction................................. 150a
Order Denying Motion for Preliminary Injunction .... 156a
Findings of Fact; Conclusions of Law; Interim
Order.................. 162a
Appendix A—Plan for Compliance, etc........... . 171a
Appendix B—Assurance of Compliance, etc. .... 177a
Plaintiffs’ Response to Defendants’ Standards for
Employment, etc......................................................- 180a
Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Objections to Defendants’
Standards, etc............... 182a
Motion to Require Defendants to Eliminate Edu
cational Disparities ......................................... 185a
Affidavit of Frank E. Schwelb in Support of Motion 186a
Appendix A—Enrollment List ........................... 191a
Appendix B—Enrollment List ........................... 193a
Appendix C—Enrollment List ..................... ..... 195a
Appendix D—Enrollment List ........................... 197a
Appendix E—Enrollment List ........................... 199a
Appendix F—Enrollment List ........................... 201a
Appendix Gf—Assignment of Buses .................. 203a
Motion for Further Belief ........................................ 204a
Plaintiffs’ Interrogatories .......................................... 209a
Defendants’ Answers to Plaintiffs’ Interrogatories .. 213a
Exhibit A—Enrollment Totals........................... 217a
Exhibit B—Notice of School Desegregation
Plan .............................................. 219a
Exhibit C—Letter to Parents............................. 221a
Exhibit D—Same as Exhibit B ......................... 222a
Exhibit E-l—Letter ......................... 223a
Exhibit E-2—Same as Exhibit B ..................... 224a
Exhibit E-3—Choice of School F orm ................ 225a
Defendants’ Answers to Plaintiffs’ Interrogatories .. 226a
Defendants’ Besponse to Plaintiffs’ Motion for Fur
ther Belief ..... 228a
11
PAGE
Transcript of Hearing in Baltimore, Md., dated
April 20, 1967 .......................................... ................ 233a
Transcript of Hearing in Raleigh, N.C., dated May
9, 1967 ..................................................................... - 236a
Appendix C to Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Proposed Find
ings ............................... -............................ -............ 239a
Appendix D to Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Proposed Find
ings .......................................................-................... 259a
Defendants’ Motion to Stay Execution of Opinion
and Order dated August 17,1967 ............................. 262a
Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Memorandum in Opposition to
Defendants’ Motion to Stay Execution.................. 265a
Order Denying Stay ................................................ - 271a
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston .......... 272a
Deposition of Booker Talefero Driver ..................... 308a
Deposition of Cecil Macon ................................ ......... 328a
Deposition of Sidney Winston Manley ...................... 335a
Deposition of George Vance Floyd ........................... 345a
Deposition of John Echols ............... ......................... 363a
Deposition of W. J. Champion.................................... 370a
Deposition of Jean Carol Satterwhite ...................... 380a
Ill
PAGE
IV
Stipulated Testimony of Satterwhite, Moore, Geddie
and Dunn........................................................... 410a
Deposition of Nellie Margaret Kearney .................. 413a
Deposition of Irene Arrington .................................. 418a
Testimony
(Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction)
Government’s Witnesses
Warren W. Smith—
Direct (By Mr. Pink) .................................48a, 79a
Direct (By Mr. Chambers) ......................... 59a
Cross (By Mr. Yarborough) ....................... 83a
Redirect (By Mr. Chambers) ................112a, 146a
Recross (By Mr. Yarborough) ..............137a, 148a
Redirect (By Mr. Pink) ............................... 149a
Volume II
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham ................483a, 907a
Deposition of Rev. Prank Wood .......... .............. 526a, 742a
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge ................ ....... 560a
Deposition of Spencer McKinley Massenburg ...... 590a
Exhibit 1—Note ................................................... 001a
Exhibit 2—Note ................................................... 003a
PAGE
Deposition of Queen E. W ortham .............................. 397a
V
Deposition of Plummer Alston, Jr............................. 604a
Government’s Exhibit 1—Article in Franklin
Times .......................................... ........................ 611a
Deposition of Inez Davis................................ ..... ....... 612a
Exhibit A—Form B ............ .......................... . 623a
Deposition of Thaddens Jerome Cheek .......... ......... 625a
Deposition of Margaret Crudup............................... . 648a
Government’s Exhibits 2 and 3—Notes ........... 667a
Government’s Exhibit 4—Letter dated August
12, 1965 .............................................................. 669a
Deposition of James T. Anderson............................. 670a
Government’s Exhibit 1—Article from Franklin
Times.................................................................. 689a
Deposition of Joseph Henry Branch ................... 690a
Exhibit 1—Letter dated June 10, 1965 .......... 705a
Exhibit 2—School Preferential Form .............. 707a
Exhibit 3—School Preferential Form .............. 709a
Deposition of Christine Coppedge ..................... 710a, 760a
Government’s Exhibit 1—Article from Franklin
Times.................................................................. 725a
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers ..................... 726a, 847a
Government’s Exhibit 1—Article from Franklin
Times.................................................................. 741a
PAGE
VI
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg ........................... 821a
Deposition of Buck Norwood ................................. 882a
Deposition of Christopher Neal .............................. 925a
Deposition of Paul C. Engrain .............................. 959a
Volume III
Deposition of Warren E. Massenburg .................. 997a
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson ................... 1014a
Deposition of William L. Stormer ........................ 1036a
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan ............................ 1096a
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey .......................... 1127a
Deposition of Michael Dan Matthews ................... 1149a
Deposition of Wanda Lou Parrish ........................ 1151a
Deposition of Sheral Frazier .................................. 1153a
Deposition of Jerry Wayne Boone ........................ 1154a
Deposition of Ira Bowden ....................................... 1158a
Deposition of Mattie G-. C. Harris ........................ 1163a
Deposition of Arnee Hartsfield ............................. 1175a
PAGE
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton ........... 790a
Deposition of Ruby E. Perry ........... ............... ....... 1183a
Deposition of Charlie White .................................... 1189a
Deposition of Frank W. Rogers .................. 1194a
Deposition of Joyce Terrell ..................................... 1202a
Deposition of Willie Perry ...... 1208a
Deposition of Dazell Walters ................................. 1214a
Deposition of Sadie M. Suitt ................................. 1216a
Deposition of Joyce Griffin ..................................... 1221a
Deposition of Robert B. Fleming .......................... 1226a
Deposition of Alvaretta Moore .... ................... 1230a
Deposition of Cunetter Bolden .............................. 1235a
Deposition of Melissa Dean ..................................... 1236a
Deposition of Ollie Strickland ................................ 1241a
D eposition o f Gladys Hayes ................................... 1243a
Deposition of Robert Richardson ............................ 1244a
Deposition of Evelyn Kay Harris ........................ 1246a
D eposition of Veronica Hawkins ............................ 1252a
Vll
PAGE
Deposition of Mattie W. Crudup ...................... . 1179a
Vlll
Transcript of Trial July 25-26, 1967 ......................... 1256a
Summation of Argument by Counsel ................ 1489a
(Trial July 25-26, 1967)
Plaintiffs’ Witness
Eev. Luther Coppedge—
Direct (By Mr. Schwelb) ............................. 1259a
Direct (By Mr. Chambers) ......................... 1286a
Cross (By Mr. Yarborough) ....................... 1287a
Eedirect (By Mr. Schwelb) ......................... 1316a
Eecross (By Mr. Yarborough) .................... 1319a
Defendants’ Witness
Warren W. Smith—
Direct (By Mr. Davis) ................................. 1330a
Cross (By Mr. Chambers) ......................... 1354a
Cross (By Mr. Schwelb) ........................... . 1398a
Eedirect (By Mr. Davis) ....................1436a, 1483a
Eecross (By Mr. Chambers) ....................... 1470a
Eecross (By Mr. Schwelb) ......................... 1477a
PAGE
ix
Exhibit Volume
EXHIBITS
PAGE
Government Trial Exhibit 16 (Excerpts from the
Minutes of the Franklin County Board of Educa
tion (Minutes of the Meeting of February 4,
1963) ......................................................................... 1535a
Government Trial Exhibit 20 .................................... 1545a
Government Trial Exhibit 22 ..................................... 1547a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of Sidney
W. Manley of July 26, 1966 .................................. 1550a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of Margaret
Crudup of July 27, 1966 ........................................ 1550a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of William
L. Stormer of May 19, 1967 .................................... 1551a
Government Trial Exhibit 1 ...................................... 1567a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of Irene
Arrington of July 27, 1966 .................................... 1568a
Government Trial Exhibit 15 .................................... 1570a
Government Trial Exhibit 3 ....................................... 1571a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of George
V. Echols of July 26, 1966 ........................... -........ 1573a
X
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of Irene
Arrington of July 27, 1966 .................................... 1575a
Government Trial Exhibit 6 ...................................... 1577a
Government Trial Exhibit 5 ...................................... 1578a
Government Trial Exhibit 7 ................................... 1581a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of Rev
erend Luther Coppedge of July 28, 1966 ............ 1582a
Government Trial Exhibit 8 ...................................... 1583a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of James
T. Anderson of July 28, 1966 ............................... 1584a
Government Trial Exhibit 9 ............... ....................... 1586a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of Plummer
Alston, Jr. of July 27, 1966 .................................... 1587a
Government Trial Exhibit 11 .................................... 1588a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of Reverend
Sidney Dunston of July 26,1966 ............................. 1591a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of Fred W.
Rogers of July 28, 1966 .......................................... 1595a
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of Fred W.
Rogers of April 28, 1967 ... ..................................... 1596a
Government Trial Exhibit 36 .................................... 1606a
PAGE
XI
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of Fred W.
Rogers of April 28, 1967 ........................................ 1608a
Government Exhibit 4 to the Deposition of Arthur
L. Morgan of May 20, 1967 .................................... 1611a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of Arthur
L. Morgan of May 20, 1967 .................................... 1614a
Government Trial Exhibit 33 .................................... 1616a
Government Trial Exhibit 35 .................................... 1618a
PAGE
..
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.
■
483a
Egbert T. Latham, a witness for the plaintiffs, being dnly
sworn, deposes and says:
Direct Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Please state your name, your age, and your address.
A. Robert T. Latham, Route 4, Box 144A, Louisburg, N. C.
Q. How long have you lived in the Louisburg area, Mr.
Latham? A. Three years.
Q. Where did you live prior to that time ? A. I lived in
Kansas City, Missouri.
Q. Where were you born, sir? A. At Wichita Falls,
Texas.
Q. Have you spent most of your life in the Southwest?
A. Yes.
Q. What is your occupation? A. I am a minister.
Q. What is your particular connection right now? A. I
am Superintendent of Missions with the Tar River Baptist
Association, Franklin County, North Carolina.
Q. How long have you held that position, Reverend La
tham? A. For three years.
Q. What are the functions and duties of the Superintend
ent of Missions, the position you hold? A. The correla
tion and supervision of work for the 39 churches that are
—4—
m the Association, and I also serve in an advisory council
capacity as regards all types of church ministry and prob
lems.
Q. You serve the 39 churches in a supervisory capacity?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where are those 39 churches located? A. They are
located in Franklin and Martin counties in this State.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
— 3—
484a
Q. Do you know approximately what the church member
ship is in these churches under you! A. The membership
is approximately 8,000.
Q. Are most of the persons who attend these churches
which are under your supervision and direction white peo
ple or Negroes! A. They are of the white race.
Q. As far as you are concerned are Negroes welcome to
come to these churches! A. As far as I am concerned they
are certainly welcome but they are not as far as the churches
are concerned. I can only speak for myself.
Q. Generally speaking, what is your personal position on
civil rights for Negroes! A. I think every person is en
titled to proper recourse as regards his constitutional
rights.
—5 -
Q. Have you taken positions with respect to treatment
of Negroes in North Carolina and in other places, that is,
have you taken a public position on the matter! A. Yes, I
have.
Q. Tell us a little bit about that, just in your own words.
A. Perhaps my position could be summarized in two dif
ferent statements, first, that every individual is loved by
God and ought to be the recipient of love and proper treat
ment by every Christian regardless of his race, and so
forth; the second, is, that both the white population and
Negro population have obligations and responsibilities as
well as privileges in order to effect a kind of co-existence
and brotherhood, intermingling of the citizens, and so forth.
Q. Have you taken that position publicly! A. Yes, I
have.
Q. Describe just what position you have taken in public
and over what period of time, and when! A. Well, actu
ally, over all of the 3-year period I have been here, both in
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
485a
sermons and in teaching situations, and on public occasions,
and editorially through the publication of these little book
lets, Highlites, which has a circulation of approximately
2,000 in the area.
— 6—
Q. I show you now an issue of the publication you have
just referred to, “Highlites” , dated April 8, 1964, and ask
you just what this is ? A. This is the official publication of
the Tar River Baptist Association of which I am the Editor.
Q. And you say this publication has a circulation of what!
A. Approximately 2,000.
Q. For example, have you taken any position with re
spect to Ku Klux Klan and other vigilante groups! A.
Yes, I have.
Q. What has been your position about that, generally!
A. My position has been that it is a hate group hiding un
der the cloak of a love group, which is anti-Christian, a
hate group disassociated by its activities from its claims.
Mr. Schwelb: I introduce in evidence as Govern
ment Exhibits 1 and 2 in this deposition the two is
sues of Highlites dated respectively April 8, 1964
and November 12, 1965.
Q. Reverend Latham, how many sermons have you
preached over the past two years on the subject of Better
Race Relations and Pair Treatment of Negroes! A. I
have treated the subject periodically, don’t know how many
tunes but have treated the subject in sermons, in the body or
—7—
context of my sermons, and also in specific Mission studies
which deal with Baptist Mission work around the world,
have dealt specifically with the race issue in my sermons,
have dealt with the race situation.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
486a
Q. Have you been reticent with respect to your position
on the subject? A. No, I have been open in my position
with no reticency about it at all.
Q. Now, what is your wife’s occupation? A. She is a
seamstress.
Q. Does she work anywhere? A. Yes, she does.
Q. Where does she work? A. She works at the Justice
Manufacturing Company located there in the Justice com
munity.
Q. And what is your wife’s name, please? A. Shirley
Eay Latham.
Q. Does she go back and forth to work? A. Yes, she
does.
Q. How does she usually get to work? A. She hitches a
ride every morning, to and from work.
Q. Does anybody ever pick her up? A. Yes.
- 8 -
Q. Who picks her up? A. Anyone who works at the
factory that happens to come by at the time she is waiting.
Q. Do both white people and Negroes work at that fac
tory? A. Yes.
Q. Have you been told by your wife of any incident, of
which you do not have personal knowledge, regarding any—
—Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To the Form.
Q. —incident that happened as a result of her riding to
work with Negroes.
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To the form.
A. (No answer)
Q. Did your wife tell you anything about what happened
to her in that connection?
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham,
487a
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough.
A. She told me that she had received a telephone call while
I was gone one evening and the party on the phone asked
her if she was Mrs. Shirley Latham who worked in the
Justice Community factory and that she said Yes, and the
voice said then, “Are you the one that has been riding with
those damned niggers ?” And she said she had been riding
with some Negro ladies, and the voice on the other end of
the line, and which she said was a female voice, said “If
— 9 —
you ride with them again it will be the last time you prob
ably will ride with anybody.”
Q. You didn’t personally hear that telephone call, did
you! A. No.
Q. You believed what your wife told you about it, did
you!
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To the form.
A. Yes, I certainly did.
Q. Has she continued to ride with them! A. Yes.
Q. Have you been upset by this?
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To the form.
A. Yes, because she was upset.
Q. Reverend Latham, have you taken an interest in the
desegregation of public schools in Franklin County? A.
Yes, I have.
Q. What, exactly, has been the nature of your interest
and what have your activities been pursuant to that inter
est? A. My primary concern has been to do whatever I
could to effect desegregation, with the minimum amount of
488a
intimidation and violent involvements concerning the race
issue.
Q. Are you personally acquainted with the Reverend
Luther Coppedge ? A. Yes, I am.
— 10-
Q. Do you know the Reverend S. G. Dunston? A. Yes,
I know him, have known him ever since I came here.
Q. Are you and he on friendly terms? A. Yes, we are
on friendly terms.
Q. Do you know any members of the Franklin County
Board of Education! A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you know Mr. Yarborough, Attorney for the
Board? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know Mr. Smith, the Superintendent? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. How many members of the Franklin County Board of
Education do you know? A. I personally know Mr. Lloyd
West, and have a speaking acquaintance with Mr. Clint
Fuller.
Q. Do you know any other members of the Board per
sonally? A. No, I just know some of them hut I do not
know them personally.
Q. Reverend Latham, how long have you been aware of
the legal and other controversies involving school desegre
gation in Franklin County? A. Somewhat over a year.
— 11-
Q. Have you been approached by any person to take any
action with respect to these differences, trying to reconcile
them? A. Yes, I was approached unofficially by certain
members of the School Board to meet with Mr. Smith and
Mr. Yarborough in an attempt to try to effect some kind of
conciliation between the Board and the Negro community.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
489a
Q. What member or members of the School Board ap
proached yon? A. Mr. West was the man who made the
initial contact with me, and I met with Mr. West, Mr. Ful
ler, Mr. Yarborough, and Mr. Smith.
Q. And where did you meet? A. In Mr. Yarborough’s
office.
Q. Approximately when was that? A. That was in the
fall after school had opened.
Q. Was that meeting held on the School Board’s initia
tive? A. It was held unofficially on the part of the mem
bers of the school board whom I met with.
Q. I would like for you to outline the dealings that you
had with the School Board and with the Negroes as best
you can in connection with this. A. The upshot of the
first meeting with the Board was a request on their part
for me to act in the capacity of a mediator and to try to
persuade the Negro leaders and the Negro community to
— 12—
withdraw complaints made to Washington in regard to de
segregation. I viewed that as an opportunity for me to try
to lessen, if possible, the possibility of future incidents dur
ing the integration of the school system, and I talked with
the Negro leaders on several occasions.
Q. Which ones did you talk to? A. I talked to the
Reverend Luther Coppedge, and the Reverend S. (t. Duns-
ton. And I met with the Board of Education, met unofficially
with these members of the Board on three occasions and
tried to work out some type of agreement which would be
satisfactory to everybody involved.
Q. What discussions did you have with each side with
respect to those things? A. Well, the purpose of the Board
seem to be to try to talk the Negro leaders out of continu
ing with their complaints to Washington.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
490a
Q. What was their principal complaint at that time?
A. Are you asking with respect to the Negro leadership
that I talked to?
Q. That’s right. A. Intimidation, unwholesome atmos
phere which was not conducive to the proper working of a
plan; they were suspicious of the actions of the Board,
- 1 3 -
and I think they felt that the Board had not acted honestly
with them in the matter of the publication of names which
they felt had suddenly opened up the possibility of intimi
dation.
Q. Did the issue arise in their minds as to lateral trans
fers in grades not covered by the four grades? A. That
was an issue in point, yes.
Q. Did you have any conversation with any members of
the School Board regarding lateral transfers and the cri
teria required in the applications for lateral transfers!
And if so, state what conversations you had. A. Yes, we
did have such conversations. We discussed that, and the
Board expressed, the Board members expressed their view
point concerning the issue, and the Negro community
leaders expressed their viewpoint and I was thrown in the
situation personally where I had to not only try to be fair
with both groups but try to be honest with myself as re
gards where the responsibility in the matter lay and what
kind of suggestions to make as to how to bring about some
kind of reconciliation.
Q. Are you familiar with the criteria that were eventually
adopted to determine whether the applications for lateral
—14-
transfers would be accepted? A. Generally, yes.
Q. Did you learn during that time from any members of
the School Board as to when these criteria were adopted
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
491a
and the circumstances under which they were adopted? A.
It is my impression from discussions with members of the
School Board that the criteria were adopted after the ap
plications had been filed.
Q. Can you tell us what members of the School Board
they were who gave you this impression ? A. It was during
the course of approximately a week when all these meetings
were going on where Mr. Fuller, Mr. West, Mr. Smith and
Mr. Yarborough were present at the meetings.
Q. Did you make any recommendations to the School
Board with respect to the applications for lateral trans
fers? A. I suggested at one time, on the basis of my im
pressions, that I felt like normally the Board ought to go
ahead and grant all the applications. The Board was very,
at least some members of the Board to which I suggested
that, were very strong in their feelings that that would not
be done. And on the strength of this type of testimony and
feeling I made three suggestions which possibly might be
acceptable by the Negro leaders in the community; one was
—15—
that all of these people who had made application who had
been denied be guaranteed that their applications would
be granted in the fall semester; and the other would be that
the Board agree that no names be published regarding the
people who made applications either now or in the future.
Q. You have stated two of your suggestions, I believe
you mentioned there were three. A. Yes. The other one
has escaped my mind for the moment.
Q. Now, Reverend Latham, what was the response of the
Board to your suggestion that all the applications for
transfer be permitted? A. Their response was clearly
negative.
Q- Did any member of the Board state a reason why they
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
492a
would refuse to admit them! A. They indicated that they
felt that they had gone as far as it was possible for them
to go in dealing honestly and fairly with the Negro com
munity in this regard.
Q. What is your meaning in saying that they said they
had gone as far as they could go, from what point of view?
A. I think it was the point of view of how they felt and the
prospective total Board.
—16-
Q. Was that the reflection of the feeling of the commu
nity, or something else?
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
A. I think it was the reflection of the feeling of the Board.
I certainly think it was also a reflection of the feeling of
the total community but I think it was also a reflection of
the Board members.
Q. Do you know of your own knowledge whether the cri
teria were set out on the applications for lateral transfers
that were sent out to Negroes? A. It is my impression
that they were not.
Q. You mentioned, did you not, that you made the sug
gestion to the Board to cease publication of the names in
volved? A. That’s right.
Q. Has a member of the school Board power over what
things are not published and what things are published,
has a member of the School Board the power to publish
things that he wants to in the Franklin Times ? A. I don’t
know who has authority to do this.
Q. Is a member of the School Board the publisher of the
Franklin Times? A. Yes.
Q. And who is that? A. Mr. Clint Fuller.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
493a
—17—
Q. Tell me what discussions, if any, you had with Mr.
Clint Fuller and with other members of the Board about
this. A. Well, I suggested to the total group that I felt
like Mr. Fuller’s role in the whole affair had served as an
obstacle to peaceful integration.
Q. In what respect? A. Well, since Mr. Fuller is on the
School Board what he says and does is clearly regarded in
the community as a reflection of the School Board. Some
viewpoints in one of the first editorials that Mr. Fuller
wrote indicated that the School Board through Mr. Harris
Baker, I believe it was, expressed in a statement what was
probably reflective of the School Board’s attitude, that the
only reason they were involved in it was because they had
been forced into it by the Federal Government; conducive
to intimidation and certainly was not positive in any way
as regards integration.
Q. Did you ever recommend to Mr. Fuller not to print
the names of Negroes involved in desegregation, not to
print them in his newspaper?
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To the form.
A. I recommended this to the total group, Mr. Fuller being-
present. I also talked with a member of the Board with
—18—
whom I was more personally acquainted and asked him if
he wouldn’t say something to Mr. Fuller about it.
Q- What was Mr. Fuller’s response? A. My impression
was that Mr. Fuller felt like there was no relationship be
tween what he did with his paper, the terms of editorial
reporting of the news, and his relationship with the School
Board.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
494a
Q. Do you know of any intimidation incidents that hap
pened prior to yonr dealings with the Board on this sub
ject? If you can remember. A. Yes, I know of incidents
but they are not incidents upon which I can call forth wit
nesses, because people are intimidated or certainly some
of them are reluctant to become a witness to give such tes
timony.
Q. Have you actually heard of such reluctance as related
to giving such testimony?
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To the form.
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Have you heard of incidents of violence, had you
heard of such incidents before that time?
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To the form.
A. Yes, I had heard of shooting into Negro homes, the
burning of crosses, nails in driveways, and had heard of
some type of liquid fuel being put in the wells of people,
—19-
and so forth. Also, I heard of economic pressure brought
to bear.
Q. Did you make a reference to this type of thing in your
conversations with Mr. Fuller as to the effect of the pub
lication of names? A. I think I shared with the Board
that the Negro community felt that the publication of the
names was forthrightly and strongly associated with some
occurrences of intimidation.
Q. Was there any further publication of the names of
Negroes in the Franklin Times after those conversations!
A. Yes.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham,
495a
Q. With respect to the issue of free choice and intimida
tion what dealings or negotiations did you have with the
School Board? A. Please restate that question.
Q. You mentioned how you felt about lateral transfers
at the publication of the names in the paper, did you also
deal with them with respect to the whole problem of free
choice or not?
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To the form.
A. No. I think I discussed it very briefly with Mr. Smith
later on, our conversations and dealings dealt with specific
— 20-
issues that related to intimidation and freedom of choice
but not necessarily whether it would work, but how to re
solve the issues at hand.
Q. In connection with Mr. Fuller, again, did you have
any conversation with another member of the Board re
garding a suggestion that a member of the Board made
to Mr. Fuller? A. Yes, I did.
Q. What was that conversation that a member of the
Board had with Mr. Fuller? A. Well, I had suggested to
Mr. West that it would certainly be wise for someone to
get Mr. Fuller’s ear, someone who could persuade him to
construct his editorials in such a way as not to be deroga
tory regarding Negro leadership, would not place the onus
of inflammatory matter on the Negroes. After my discus
sions with the School Board I became convinced that the
School Board was the one basically responsible although I
felt like the Negro community may have been over suspi
cious to a point which was not normal, and I suggested
that he ask Mr. Fuller not to publish the names anymore,
and this member of the Board stated that he had talked
to Mr. Fuller about this matter and that he was told in so
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
- 21-
many words by Mr. Fuller to mind bis own business.
Q. Now, do you think your testimony as so far given
by you is the principal information regarding your deal
ings with the School Board on this matter?
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To the form.
A. I think I have given you the principal information with
the exception of my own viewpoints or conclusions as to all
of these things.
Q. Based upon your dealings with this matter what was
your conclusion?
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To the form.
A. I came to the conclusion—after acting as intermediary,
at the meetings, between the School Board and several
Negro leaders I had no particularly strong feelings as to
who was really at fault other than the fact that I certainly
was persuaded that it tended toward intimidation, and so
forth. After examining the issues at hand and reading the
editorials and reviewing the past I came to the conclusion
that probably on about four counts the Board was respon
sible for creating a situation which was conducive to intim
idation and which was certainly not conducive to any kind
of working of freedom of choice. My conclusion was based
on these four ideas: 1. This one I have mentioned, the
— 22-
publication of the editorials by a member of the Board
prior to the making of applications and after the making
of applications, which indicated a defiant spirit toward the
law. And also I think he made the basic appeal to the
white community indicating to them that the only reason
497a
why the Board was involved was because it was forced into
it; and I didn’t think that created a healthy atmosphere.
I think the editorials indicated, and it was my impression
from my meetings with members of the Board, that if there
was any preference to be made it would be made as regards
the white population and not the Negro population. I think
the publication of the names in the paper was certainly a
violation of the responsibility of the Board not in order
to try to achieve a type of peaceful integration.
Q. I think in fairness to your testimony I should ask you
if this last was an expression of opinion, is that right? A.
Yes.
Q. Do you know that the School Board minutes of Frank
lin County are a public record under the law of North Caro
lina? A. I am not aware of that.
Q. Now, have you ever preached in a church under un
usual circumstances, a church in this area?
—2 3 -
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To the form.
A. If you are asking me whether or not I have preached
in a Negro church in this area, the answer is Yes.
Q. When did you do that? A. In September of this last
year.
Q. Where was it that you preached in such church? A.
In Warrenton I preached at a meeting of people from the
Warrenton area, from adjacent counties, a Negro Laymen’s
League.
Q- You mentioned, I believe, that you have heard of
some attempted intimidation of Negroes, I wash to ask you
this:— A. —May I stop you and regress a little with re
spect to a question you asked me awhile ago?
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
498a
Q. Yes, you may. A. There was another reason why I
felt like the Board was responsible for lack of involvement
in positive integration, and that was the fact that the cri
teria was not established until after the applications were
received and also that the Negroes were not apprised
of this criteria when they were making the applications,
and this also goes further back to the statements I made
prior to this, that the Negroes felt that the Board had dealt
- 2 4 -
dishonestly with them, and I felt like the School Board was
probably responsible for this other action, that at least it
had effected a sabotaging of real communications. And the
other suggestion that I had made to the School Board re
garding this matter, the third suggestion that had slipped
my mind for the moment in my earlier testimony, was that
the School Board accept their responsibility in regard to
communication with the Negro community and effectually
offer freedom of choice, lateral transfers.
Q. Now, Reverend Latham, the testimony that yon have
just given as to the matter of responsibility of the Board
is an expression of opinion of yours in general terms as
to the School Board and members of it?
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
A. Well, I think this is my opinion, yes, that I expressed
to the School Board that I felt like that morally they should
probably allow all of these applications to be processed be
cause of the method of handling. And then I think my
other viewpoints were expressed in the three criteria which
might effect resumption of reconciliation.
Q. Now, what you have testified to here, is that similar
or dissimilar to what you said at that time to them? A.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
499a
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
—25—
It is not dissimilar, it is similar; I thought that was clear.
Q. Eeverend Latham, have you had any incidents to hap
pen at your home or in connection with your home indicat
ing that somebody disapproved of what you were doing!
A. Yes.
Q. Please describe those incidents. A. I have had very
large nails brought into my driveway on six different occa
sions. I have heard heavy breathing during the phone
calls, that is, when answering the phone calls all you could
hear on the other end of the line was heavy breathing. I
have had a cross burned in close proximity to the yard.
Q. When was the cross-burning? A. On July 16th of this
year.
Q. Anything else? A. I have also had incidents reported
to me by ministers in the area and which, of course, I have
to treat in confidence because their jobs also might be
jeopardized, but which incidents indicate that there are
pressures being brought to bear to try to eliminate rue
from my job relationship.
Q. Have you received any unusual publication at your
door?
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
—26—
A. Yes, on several occasions I have had Ku Klux Klan
paper fired across at my door.
Q. Have you had any difficulties in driving your car? A.
Well, on one occasion I picked up some of the nails in my
driveway, so I did have a little difficulty with it.
Q. Please state over what period these incidents have
occurred? A. Most of the incidents occurred, as far as the
nails, and the heavy breathing on the phone calls are con
cerned, last fall. The threat on my wife’s life and the com-
500a
munications from the ministers concerning attempts pos
sibly to be made concerning my job relationship, and the
cross, all happened this spring and this summer.
Q. Today, on the occasion when we first met, did you
express an opinion to me that the exercise of the freedom
of choice would or would not work in Franklin County!
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What is your opinion as to that? A. I indicated to
you that I felt like because of how the School Board has
handled the situation in the general management of it by
—27-
the Board in the area, because of the general feelings and
background of the community in Franklin County, because
of the obvious, or to me obvious, attempts at intimidation,
the lack of response to freedom of choice, told you that I
did not feel that the freedom of choice plan is a workable
plan.
Q. Do you know that an Order was signed by Judge But
ler yesterday? A. Yes, I do.
Q. We had a conversation about that Order, did we not,
you and I? A. Yes, we did.
Q. Did I convey to you what Judge Butler wanted every
body in the community to do?
Objection, to the form, by Mr. Yarborough.
A. You conveyed to me your understanding of it.
Q. What did I say to you?
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To the form.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham,
501a
A. You indicated to me that Judge Butler was very con
cerned about effecting some kind of peaceful integration of
the schools, was very persuasive as regards working out
some type of compromise between the parties involved here
so as to effect integration.
Q. Do you know whether or not the next period of free-
— 271/ 2—
dom of choice plan is going to come about within the next
month or so? A. Are you referring to the 15-day period
in August?
Q. Yes. A. Yes, I am aware of that.
Q. Following my explanation to you and what you know
of the Judge are you going to make an effort to make it
work as successfully as possible? A. I am not certain that
I understand your question.
Q. Are you going to take steps to try to make it work?
A. I will probably discuss possible actions with ministers
in the area and apprise them of my understanding of the
interest of the Court and my interpretation of the possible
consequences if this is not faithfully done, and I’ll prob
ably mimeograph and circulate copies of the Court Order.
Q. It appears from your testimony that you have some
difference of opinion with the School Board, isn’t that
right? A. In my own mind I have.
Q. Do you have any personal rancor about it? A. No,
sir.
Q. Are you prepared to offer your service to them now,
—28—
if desired? A. Yes.
Q. I take it that your criticism—
—Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To “criticism’’.
Q- —is not personal resentment, but is an objective ap
praisal?
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
502a
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To the form.
A. I have indicated that I had no particular viewpoint
concerning where the fault lay until after I had become in
volved in an attempt to mediate, and I feel that my conclu
sions are made on an objective basis.
Q. Are you prepared to go to them and offer your
services? A. Yes, if in any way I could be of help in
peaceful integration.
Mr. Schwelb: Those are all the question I have
now.
Mr. Chambers: No questions.
Mr. Schwelb: I do have a few more questions and
will ask them now.
Mr. Schwelb (continued)
Q. Did you ever write a letter to Mr. Smith? A. Yes, I
did.
Q. I now show you a copy of a letter and ask you if that
is a copy of the letter you wrote Mr. Smith? A. Yes, it is,
Mr. Schwelb: I wish to offer in evidence as
—2 9—
Government Exhibit 3 in this deposition a copy of a
deposition a copy of a letter from Robert T. Latham,
Louisburg, North Carolina, Route 4, to Superinten
dent, Franklin County Board of Education, Louis
burg, North Carolina, dated April 8, 1966.
Q. Did you receive a written answer to that letter? A.
No, I did not.
Q. Did you have any oral discussions with Mr. Smith
about the subjects involved? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
503a
Q. What, in effect, did he tell you in response to the
letter? A. He apprised me of the difficulty of answering
the questions which I posed in the letter. He also indi
cated that he felt like that if I requested transfer of any
child to the Louisburg School that transportation could
not he worked out for him, that something else could he
worked out in order to move him back to the school area
where transportation could be worked out. I suggested to
him at that time that I felt like the freedom of choice was
really limited since it was burdened with so many adminis
trative problems in regard to transportation.
Q. Now, even though you have thought that freedom of
choice could not work—
—Objection, by Mr. Yarborough.
—30—
Q. —are you going to give it a good try? A. I certainly
will.
Direct Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. How would the freedom of choice be limited? A.
By the bus routes, actually. I indicated in my letter that
if we were to have freedom of choice we would certainly
have to have some type of area county transportation. If
my boy were sent to Louisburg to school and there was no
bus transportation provided then he couldn’t stay in the
school system.
Q. Have you discussed the problem of bus transportation
with Negro leaders in the community? A. No, I have not
discussed it. The letter constituted my personal impression
and questions as regards the validity of it.
Q. Have you approached any specific members of the
School Board with respect to this subject of transporta-
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
504a
tion ? A. No. The only thing that Mr. Smith told me was
whether or not transportation wonld be provided, that it
would be dependent upon the number of pupils living in
a certain given area who had made applications and whose
applications had been approved. I told him that I under
stood the difficulties of this kind of situation and I didn’t
press the matter any further although I did indicate that
- 3 1 -
I felt like that maybe the solution to the whole problem
was a plan based on geography whereby all the problems
could be eliminated.
Cross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Reverend Latham, you have been living in Franklin
Comity three years ? A. Correct.
Q. Out of the 8,000 members of the Tar River Baptist
Association how many of them live in Franklin County?
A. We have approximately from 25 to 30 churches in the
County.
Q. But you gave a number of 8,000 as being the member
ship ? A. Yes.
Q. Can you break that down? A. I can’t break it down
fully because we have in the county larger churches, larger
churches in Franklin County.
Q. Well, how many churches do you have in your associa
tion? A. We have thirty-nine.
Q. How many do you have in Franklin County? A. I
would say approximately 25.
Q. You have approximately 25 churches in Franklin
County? A. That’s right; and the larger churches are in
Franklin County, such as Louisburg and Flat Rock.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
505a
Deposition, of Rev. Robert T. Latham
—32—
Q. The Louisburg Baptist Church is one of your larger
churches! A. That’s right.
Q. You have been in Franklin County three years and
you have worked diligently with those churches of which
you are the missionary! A. That’s correct.
Q. As set forth in these two two copies of the publication
Highlites which you have introduced here! A. Yes, I
think it probably would be a fair appraisal of my work.
Q. What! A. I think that is a fair appraisal, think
that those copies of Highlites carry typical articles.
Q. You have worked diligently at it as a matter of prin
ciple to bring about desegregation, integration? A. No.
No. The fact of the business is that I say in one of the
articles here, have indicated that I do not think that inte
gration or segregation ought to be a part of the Chiristian
vocabulary in approaching this situation.
Q. I am trying to get at it with regard to race. A.
Proper human relations, brotherhood, race, all that is based
on Christian perspectives. I have not in any shape or form
—33—
suggested to any of my churches that they ought to inte
grate, and so forth. I have said that they ought to approach
the problem from the standpoint of Christian understand
ing.
Q- That is what I am trying to get at. You have dili
gently expressed the view, have you not, that this is a
race problem that we are confronted with and which should
he approached with Christian understanding! A. That’s
correct.
Q. And for the three years you have done that? A. Cor
rect.
506a
Q. And you have diligently done that in the 25 Baptist
churches that are located in Franklin County? A. Yes,
approximately that number are in the county.
Q. And in spite of your diligent efforts the situation
that you have described relative to threats and intimidation
has existed in Franklin County since along in last summer?
A. That’s right.
Q. In spite of your efforts among your membership of
your churches that situation did exist? A. That’s right.
Q. Now, Beverend Latham, you wrote Mr. Smith a letter
and pursuant to the writing of that letter you contacted
—34—
him, did you not, went and talked to him? A. He requested
that I do so.
Q. He called you about it and you went to see him? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And he showed you the provisions in the federal
government’s guidelines regarding transportation, read
those provisions to you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He read to you the provisions with respect to the
transportation feature? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is the age of your child? A. He is eight years
old.
Q. To what school is he assigned for the coming school
year? A. We essentially asked for him to he sent hack to
the same school where he went, and that was the basis of
the conversation I had with Mr. Smith.
Q. And which school was that? A. The Edward Best
Elementary School.
Q. And you have received a notice that he is so assigned?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And that is the end of that matter and there will be
nothing further regarding that? A. That’s correct.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
Deposition of Dev. Robert T. Latham
— 35—
Q. You anticipated sending your boy to the Edward Best
Elementary School? A. Yes.
Q. That was the nearest school for children in the second
grade, the nearest school to you? A. I really don’t know
whether it is nearer than any other or not, the nearest or
not.
Q. What is the exact mileage distance between the Ed
ward Best Elementary School and the next nearest one to
you for children in the second grade ? A. I don’t know the
exact mileage.
Q. Yon live in the Justice community? A. That’s cor
rect, the Justice Community.
Q. And you preach at the Duke Memorial Baptist
Church? A. That’s correct.
Q. Through an arrangement provided by your church
Association? A. That’s right.
Q. That is in the Cedar Bock Township? A. That’s
correct.
Q. You vote in the Cedar Rock Township? A. Yes.
Q. And the Edward Best Elementary School is located
in Cedar Rock Township? A. That’s my understanding,
- 36-
yes.
Q. And you vote at the Edward Best High School? A.
That’s right.
Q. The voting place is in the school building? A. Yes.
Q. About how far is it between the two buildings, if you
know? A. Between the Edward Best High School and the
Elementary School?
Q- Yes, about how far is it between the two buildings?
A. Three or four miles.
508a
Q. Were you living in Franklin County when the bond
issue was up and was voted on in Cedar Rock Township, a
bond issue regarding schools and was defeated? A. Yes.
Q. You knew about that then? A. Yes, I knew about
that.
Q. You know that the people there voted the bond issue
down, the bond issue for the improvement of those schools!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you say that two school buses were passing your
house this past year? A. That’s correct.
Q. And one of those picked up children for the Edward
-3 7 -
Best Elementary-High School? A. Yes.
Q. And the other one went to Riverside? A. I don’t
know, but it was transporting Negro students.
Q. Didn’t you find out where that bus went to? A. No,
I had no reason to find out.
Q. Now, Reverend Latham, right much has been said
about Mr. Clint Fuller, a member of the Board of Education,
and you have said that he is the editor of the Franklin
Times, and he is the managing editor? A. That is my un
derstanding.
Q. Do you subscribe to the Franklin Times? A. Yes, I
read the Times.
Q. His name appears on the masthead of the Times? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. As being the Managing Editor? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he is the editorial writer for that paper, as far
as you know? A. That’s correct.
Q. And he has assumed responsibility for what went
into that paper? A. That’s correct.
Q. And the Franklin Times is published twice a week, is
a twice a week newspaper? A. That’s right.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
— 38—
Q. It is a newspaper with a general circulation and with
subscribers throughout the area? A. I assume it does
have.
Q. It is a recognized newspaper ? A. Recognized in that
area, yes.
Q. It is a newspaper which accepts advertisements and
such things? A. That’s correct.
Q. And you say that Mr. Fuller told Mr. West, when Mr.
West spoke to Mr. Fuller about some of the matter appear
ing in his paper, told him to mind his own business, or
something to that effect? A. Yes, something to that ef
fect.
Q. It was Mr. Fuller’s responsibility to run that news
paper, wasn’t it? A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, you spoke about the publication of the names
in that newspaper; do you know about when that was, what
issue those names were published in? A. It was sometime
in the summer of 1965, I believe.
Q. Reverend Latham, in your conversations with mem
bers of the Board and with Mr. Smith and in some of your
conversations with me which took place along about Octo
ber of 1965—we did have such conversations then? A.
— 39—
That’s correct.
Q. And that was several months after the publication of
those names in the Franklin Times? A. That’s right.
Q. Some of the colored parents were then complaining
about the publication of the item in that newspaper? A.
That’s right.
Q. Now, do you know that those same parents a short
while after the month of October themselves published to
the world those same names in the title of an action brought
510a
in the United States District Court for the Eastern District
of North Carolina?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers, To the form.
A. I did not know that.
Q. Ton did not know that those names were given in the
title of that case when that suit was brought?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
A. (No answer)
Q. You do know that a lawsuit was brought by the
Reverend Coppedge and others, do you not? A. I know
that the Reverend Coppedge was involved in a lawsuit, yes.
Q. A lawsuit in the United States District Court here in
Raleigh? A. That’s correct.
-4 0 -
Q. And did you not know that in the title of that case the
names of the children involved in the lawsuit appeared on
the title or caption of the suit? A. I ’m not aware of that.
Q. A subpoena was served upon you for you to come here
to this court, was it not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did yon see any name on it with respect to the
title of the case? A. Yes, there was one name on it.
Q. And what was that name? A. Harold Coppedge.
Q. He was a plaintiff by his father the Reverend Cop
pedge? A. That’s my understanding.
Q. So, in spite of the expressed objections of the parents
to the publication of those names in the newspaper those
same names appeared in the open Federal Court in the
bringing of a lawsuit, the names of those involved were so
published? A. I assume so from what appeared on mj
subpoena, though only one name appeared on it.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
511a
Q. Did you read those names in the newspaper, the
News and Observer published here in Baleigh at the time
the suit was filed or shortly after the suit was instituted?
—41—
A. No, sir, I did not read those names in that paper.
Q. Have you read those names in any paper at any time
since the suit was instituted? A. Not to the best of my
knowledge.
Q. You didn’t read those names in the Franklin Times
sometime after the suit was instituted ? A. I don’t remem
ber it.
Q. You do know that court records are open to the public,
don’t you? A. I have had no reason to know that.
Q. Don’t you know that court records are open to the
public? A. I have no reason to feel one way or the other
about that.
Q. You do not? A. I do not know of my own knowledge
whether court records are open to the public or not.
Q. You do not know about that either way? A. No.
Q. You have no knowledge about that either way? A. I
have no particular knowledge about that at all. I have had
no occasion to have knowledge of it.
Q. I understand you to say then, that you do not know
whether or not court records are open to the public? A.
(No answer)
—42—
Q. I understand that you do not know that the Minutes
of the Board of Education of Franklin County are public
records, open to the public? A. That’s correct.
Q- You do know that the Board of Education of Franklin
County is an official part of the County government, do
you not? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
512a
Q. And yon know that the members of the Franklin
County Board of Education are nominated in the Demo
cratic Primary in the County? A. That’s correct.
Q. And you know that they are voted upon, that the
nominees or candidates are voted upon and that those on
the Board were voted in at the Democratic primary of
May 1966, don’t you, you know that they were voted upon
at that time? A. Tes.
Q. At that time you voted for one of them or some of
them, did you? A. No, I did not vote.
Q. You did not vote? A. No, I did not vote.
Q. Were you registered so that you could vote? A.
Yes.
—43—
Q. In Cedar Bock Township in Franklin County? A.
That’s correct.
Q. Do you know that there were candidates for posi
tions on the Board of Education from the Cedar Bock
district? A. That’s correct.
Q. And do you know that one of the positions in that
primary was for a member on the Board of Education in
the Louisburg district? A. Yes.
Q. You knew that? A. Yes, sir, at least I assumed so.
Q. Mr. Clint Fuller’s name was on there as a candidate,
in that primary as a candidate? A. Yes.
Q. And he is the same Mr. Fuller that you have been
talking about here in your testimony? A. That’s correct.
Q. And he resides in Louisburg, as far as you know?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, you said, I believe, that your wife, Mrs. Shirley
Latham works at the Justice Manufacturing Company out
there near where you live? A. That’s correct.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
513a
Q. That manufacturing concern is a fairly new estab-
—44—
lishment there near your home, is it not? A. That’s cor
rect.
Q. And it is located in what was formerly a school build
ing? A. Correct.
Q. And both white and colored people work there in
that plant? A. Correct.
Q. And a Mr. Morris is the owner of it? A. That’s my
understanding.
Q. Do you know him ? A. I do not know him personally.
Q. But you do know that colored and white people are
both employed in doing the same or similar work there?
A. Yes.
Q. And in some instances both white and colored work
side by side? A. That’s correct.
Q. The plant is located a mile or so from your home?
A. Approximately a mile.
Q. That plant has been in operation about a year? A.
It has been in operation for something oyer a year.
Q. From the beginning of its operation it has employed
people without regard to race? A. I assume so. I did
not know anything about the employment there until my
—45—
wife went to work there.
Q. How long has your wife been working there? A.
Approximately 10% months.
Q. Were colored and white people working there at the
time she became employed there? A. That’s correct.
Q- And she still works there? A. That’s right.
Q. And is she still catching rides with white and colored
passersby? A. That’s right.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
514a
Q. In spite of her having received threats that hasn’t
stopped her? A. That’s right.
Q. And your wife, Mrs. Shirley Latham, still rides with
those that pick her up? A. That’s right.
Q. That plant is what was once the old Justice School
plant? A. I understand that to be true.
Q. That community center there is called Justice? A.
That’s right.
Q. Now, in your testimony you made a remark about
the attitude of the members of the Franklin County Board
of Education, believe you said that you believed that it was
—46—
the feeling of the total community, their feeling, didn’t
you use that expression? A. Well, in the community as
a whole.
Q. Of course, you do not mean the whole community, do
you? A. Not every single person.
Q. By the “whole community” you mean the whole body
of people in the county? A. That’s right.
Q. Well, in the county approximately 40 to 45 per cent
of the population is colored? A. That’s correct.
Q. Colored people? A. That’s correct.
Q. So when you said that you thought the feeling of
the Board expressed the feeling of the community as a
whole you weren’t thinking of the 40 to 45 per cent colored
population were you? A. No, I had in mind the white
population.
Q. Your statement, then, should have been that yon
thought that the feeling of the Board was the feeling not
of the total community but the feeling of the white com
munity? A. The white community as a whole, yes.
Q. I wanted the record clear on that. Are you willing to
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham,
—47—
qualify your statement to that extent, making that correc
tion! A. Yes.
Q. And certainly one white person that was not of that
feeling was you! A. That’s correct.
Q. And your wife, I presume? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And some others whom you know? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Reverend Latham, with respect to the Tar River
Baptist Association, how are you elected? A. At the Tar
River Baptist Association meeting, through elected repre
sentatives from each church who are on the Executive
Board, Executive Committee.
Q. Of your Association? A. Yes.
Q. And how is each representative from the church
elected or chosen? A. It is based upon church member
ship.
Q. Now, at that meeting at which one or more members
of the Board were present, and at which Mr. Smith and
myself were present, that meeting was the result of a call
— 18 - —
from you to Mr. Lloyd West? A. It was a call from a
member of the Board, Mr. West.
Q. Who was a member of a church which belongs to
your Association? A. Correct.
Q. And what church is that? A. The Sandy Creek Bap
tist Church.
Q. I ask you if it wasn’t concerned with a trip to Wash-
mgton about complaints by the Reverend Luther Coppedge
and others, concerned about the promotion of that trip to
Washington for a conference with the HEW officials, isn’t
that true? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The Office of Education, a branch of that depart
ment! A. Yes, I know what you are talking about.
516a
Q. And the concern of the Board of Education of Frank
lin County was with the funds, federal money, might be
lost? A. Yes.
Q. It was a preliminary with respect to a grant of fed
eral funds to the County Board of Education, and you
knew, Beverend Latham, that if the plan was disapproved
that the money could be cut off? A. That if the plan
was disapproved the money would be cut off?
- 4 9 -
Q. Yes. A. I knew there was that possibility.
Q. You knew that there was that possibility? A. Yes.
Q. And the Board members with whom you talked were
concerned about losing that money? A. Yes, I think that
is a fair statement.
Q. And you were told that all of that money if and
when received by the County Board of Education from
the federal government under that program would be
spent in schools which were then solely attended by colored
people, weren’t you told that ? A. The statement was made
to me that most of that money would be spent in Negro
schools, a portion, not all of it ; I don’t remember the word
“all” .
Q. You don’t remember that the statement was made
that those funds would be spent in schools attended solely
by colored people? A. I think it would be fair to say
that my impression was that in the meeting it was said
to me that a large proportion, even a larger portion of it
would be spent in Negro schools.
Q. A large proportion of it would be spent in Negro
schools? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you know7 that sum that we are referring to
—50-
amounted to something over $500,000.00? A. I was in
formed of that.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
517a
Q. And yon were told that much of that fund would be
spent in providing lunches at greatly reduced rates for
the students attending those schools who were eligible?
A. Yes.
Q. And you gained the impression from the members
of the Board with whom you talked concerning the re
ceiving of this fund that it would be spent for the colored
schools'? A. I knew that they were concerned with receiv
ing the funds.
Q. And I believe the suggestion was made that you go
to Washington and ride up there with me? A. That’s
correct. Also had the suggestion from the Negro leaders.
Q. And the suggestion was made that we all go together
in my car? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Those meetings were amiable and there was nothing
inflammatory or vicious about them, was there? A. The
meetings I had with the School Board were amiable as
far as our relationships were concerned.
Q. And in some of those meetings the Reverend Mr.
Coppedge was present? A. I know that all the meetings
I had with this group were segregated, if you will let me
use that word.
—51—
Q. Attended only by white people? A. Yes, sir.
Q. There was no barring of anybody out, was there ? A.
Well, my understanding was that it was in the nature of a
private meeting.
Q. But no one undertook to say that anyone would be
harred out, did they? A. That’s correct.
Q. They were confidential meetings and you were asked
somewhat in confidence, as a peacemaker? A. That’s cor
rect,
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
518a
Q. I ask you if the members of the Board of Education
with whom you talked, and other officials of the Board,
didn’t express complete confidence in you? A. I don’t
know about that, but I do know they were confidential
meetings.
Q. An effort was being made to resolve the differences
between the Franklin County Board of Education and cer
tain colored citizens of the county, isn’t that correct? A.
That’s correct.
Q. And you were to act as an intermediary or peace
maker and you agreed to that? A. That’s right.
Q. You agreed to that and you did try? A. That’s cor
rect.
—52-
Q. But it did not result in a successful result? A. That’s
correct.
Q. I believe that prior to that first meeting I had not
had the pleasure of making your acquaintance, had I? A.
I think that’s right.
Q. Bid you know me before that time? A. Only by
name.
Q. Now, I believe you stated that you preached in a
colored church in War rent on at some type of meeting? A.
That’s right.
Q. Bo you know that from time to time white preachers
have preached in a colored church in Louisburg? A. Do
I know what, from time to time?
Q. That from time to time a white preacher has preached
in a colored church in Louisburg, did you know that? A.
I have had no particular occasion to be aware of that.
Q. And Episcopal Church rector? A. Being a Baptist
I just didn’t happen to be aware of that.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
519a
Q. You didn’t know that that has been happening for a
long time, for many years, from time to time! A. No, I
was not aware of that situation.
Q. You were not aware of that! A. No.
—53—
Q. You were not aware of the fact that white rectors of
the Episcopal Church and white lay readers of the Episco
pal Church have been preaching and reading the service
in colored Episcopal Churches in Louisburg! A. No, I
was not aware of that.
Q. Now, you said, I believe that what you have testified
to concerning the Board, what you have had to say in
that respect is more of an expression of private opinion
than anything else! A. That’s correct.
Q. And another matter you touched on, these children
you were speaking of were admitted during the month of
October to the schools of their choice, were they not! A.
That’s correct.
Q. Under lateral transfer assignment! A. That’s right.
Q. I believe you said you knew that a lawsuit had been
brought, did you not? A. Yes.
Q. And the case came on for hearing before the Honor
able Algernon Butler, Judge of the United States District
Court here? A. That’s right.
—54—
Q. And after one or more hearings before him he de
clined to admit them, you know that, do you? A. That’s
correct, I know that.
Q. Now, regarding your letter written to Mr. Smith,
about which you testified, he did not write you in answer
to your letter but asked you to come in to see him, did he
not? A. Yes, he called me to come in and talk to him,
which I did.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
520a
Q. You went there to the Board of Education and talked
to him about it? A. That’s right, I did.
Q. And you made no other demands then? A. No, I
didn’t.
Q. You have read the guidelines put out by the HEW or
at least have been told about the guidelines put out by
that department with respect to the desegregation, have
you not read them or been told about the guidelines! A.
I believe the guidelines were discussed at some of your
meetings, Mr. Yarborough.
Q. You knew or were told that the first guidelines issued
in the spring of 1965 pursuant to the effective date of the
second of January 1965 that in the school portion of the
guidelines or of the Civil Rights Act, rather, of 1964 that
the HEW allowed three years for full free choice integra
tion?
- 5 5 -
Objection, by Mr. Chambers, “Misleading.”
Q. You do know that the plan of the Franklin County
Board of Education provided for free choice over a period
of two years, first for the four grades? A. Yes.
Q. And then provided for full free choice in all grades
for the next year? A. That’s correct.
Q. That is, beginning in August or September of 1966
free choice will be provided for all twelve grades? A.
That’s correct; I know about that.
Q. And of course you received a notice stating that?
A. Yes.
Q. And after a conference with Mr. Smith you did make
a choice for your child? A. Yes.
Q. Did he tell you then or show you that the criteria
provided by the HEW for lateral transfers was based
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
521a
either on a change of address or for a course of study not
offered in the school from which transfer is asked?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
A. That was related to me in your meetings in October.
—56—
Q. Then you have no reason to believe or you do not
believe you were misled by the criteria, do you, set up in
the regulations of the HEW guidelines? A. I have no
reason to believe that what was discussed in your office
was misleading or an attempt to mislead.
Q. And what you are referring to, that conversation,
took place in my office? A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, I believe you said that sometime during that
period Mr. West spoke to Mr. Fuller, suggesting to him
something about the contents of what his editorials should
be? A. I suggested to Mr. West that I did believe, in
the light of the inflammatory situation existing in our area
and in the light of the fact that it was impossible to sep
arate Mr. Fuller’s actions as a member of the Board from
the editorials which he wrote that certainly Mr. Fuller
ought to approach his editorials with a little more caution
with regard to the kind of situation we were in.
Q. Reverend Latham, Mr. Fuller being editor of the
Franklin Times is also, as far as you know, a citizen of
Franklin County and a member of the Board of Educa
tion of Franklin County? A. That’s correct.
—57—
Q- Do you know of another situation in which a member
of a County Board of Education is also the editor of a
newspaper? A. No, I ’m not aware of any.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
522a
Q. Now, sir, with respect to our meeting held in October
of 1965, that was several months after the names had been
published in the Franklin Times, was it not? A. That’s
correct.
Redirect Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Reverend Latham, Mr. Yarborough asked you a ques
tion with respect to the bringing of this lawsuit and the
time of the publication of those names in the newspaper,
did he not? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know when this lawsuit was brought? A. It
was brought in November, I believe.
Q. Was that before or after your discussions that you
referred to which took place in Mr. Yarborough’s office?
A. That was after our discussions.
Q. Between the time that Mr. Fuller published those
names in the newspaper and that time, do you know if
—58-
any reprisals, or anything that appeared to be reprisals,
had been visited upon any of them? A. Several Negro
leaders told me that reprisals did occur.
Q. Mr. Yarborough was discussing with you as to what
the HEW guidelines of 1965 provided with respect to trans
fer criteria, was he not? A. Yes.
Q. I show you a provision in the guidelines under the
Roman numeral Y (e) and ask you to read that into the
record. A. “ (e) Any student attending any grade whether
or not fully desegregated, at the school to which he origi
nally was assigned on the basis of his race, color or na
tional origin shall have an opportunity, subject to the
requirements and criteria applicable equally to all students
without regard to race, color or national origin to trans-
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
—60—
fer to any other school in which he originally would have
been entitled to enroll but for his race, color or national
origin
Q. Now, Reverend Latham, did you know that the pro
vision that you have just read was included in the criteria
which the school Board operated last year? A. (No
answer)
—59—
Q. Reverend Latham, are you having any difficulty in
construing that? A. Yes.
Mr. Schwelb: I withdraw the question, then.
Q. Now, Reverend Latham, when the HEW guidelines
were explained to you in October of 1965 or thereabouts,
was it explained to you that when the lateral transfer
applications were circulated that the criteria was supposed
to be sent, was supposed to accompany those lateral trans
fer applications? A. I think the member of the Board to
whom I was talking at that particular time indicated that
it probably would have been wise if they had been.
Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Reverend Latham, you say that a member of the
Board told you that it probably would have been wise if
they had sent the criteria along with the notices? A. Yes,
it was my impression that the Board admitted that it was
an error on their part not to make clear the criteria at
the time at which the applications were given.
Q. As I understand you, you said that the criteria were
adopted after the applications had been returned? A.
That’s my impression, yes.
524a
Recross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough-.
Q. You do know, do you not, that at the time Judge
Butler issued his Order with respect to the preliminary
injunction he took no notice of the failure of the Board
to so publish the criteria?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
A. Yes. But that didn’t have anything to do with the fact
of the general knowledge of the Negro community that it
had not been sent out and I think it was damaging to
future relations between the Negro community and the
Board as far as a positive approach to the problem is
concerned.
Q. So then it is your opinion that what was done by the
Court and the Board still affects the action of the colored
people ? A. I think that all of this affected the human rela
tionship between the whites and Negroes and between the
Board and the Negro community.
Q. You mean you think it still affects their attitude now,
that is, as this year ends ? A. I think it affects their con
fidence or trust in the Board, that it certainly does affect it.
—61-
Re-Redirect Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Have you read Judge Butler’s decision on the lateral
transfers? A. No, not if you are talking about the deci
sions of last fall and winter, no, I have not read them. I
probably read what was in the newspaper, what was re
ported about it, but I have not read per se, the Order.
Q. Do you know whether or not it was grounded on the
best interest of the transferees, the children?
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough.
525a
Q. Do you know whether or not it was grounded on the
proposition that it was not in the interest of the children
to be transferred in the middle of the year? A. I do not
know that.
Re-Redirect Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Reverend Latham, Mr. Yarborough asked you if you
knew whether Judge Butler considered the failure of the
school Board to give notice to the parents in rendering
his decision in relation to the lateral transfers; do you
know whether or not Judge Butler had before him at that
time the knowledge that the school Board had adopted the
criteria after the applications had been filed, that they
had not even discussed the criteria until after the applica
tions had been filed? A. I do not know about that.
—62—
Further Recross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. You do not know when the criteria were adopted,
but only stated what your impression was about that? A.
I understood on the basis of the discussions that this did
come out when we discussed the responsibility of the
Board of Education in muffing this whole business of
communication.
Q. What “communication” are you talking about? A. i
am talking about the communication concerning the cri
teria and the handling of the applications.
Q. You are saying, in effect, that it was a mistake of
the Board not to have included the criteria in the notices
to the public? A. That’s correct.
Mr. Schwelb: You are excused, Reverend Latham.
(Witness excused)
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
526a
—63-
Rev. Frank W ood, a witness for the plaintiffs, being duly
sworn, deposes and says:
Direct Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Please state for the record yonr name, your address,
your age, and your race. A. Frank Wood, Box 346 Route
2, Louishurg, North Carolina, age 23, white.
Q. What is your occupation1? A. I am a minister.
Q. Serving where! A. At the Centerville Baptist
Church.
Q. Are you a member of or associated with the Tar
River Baptist Association? A. Yes.
Q. Just what is your association with the Reverend
Latham, who just finished testifying here a little while
ago? A. It is one of simple friendship, and there is an
official relationship between us by virtue of my position.
Q. Are you married? A. Yes.
Q. What is your wife’s name? A. Martha Swain Wood.
Q. Do you have any children? A. No.
Q. Where is the church located at which you are the
minister? A. In Centerville.
—64-
Q. What is the name of your church? A. The Center
ville Baptist Church.
Q. How many deacons do you have in that church? A.
We have nine active deacons.
Q. What is the approximate size of your congregation?
A. The membership is about 225 or 250.
Q. What is the general attendance at your church! A.
I would say it is 130 in the winter and 100 in the summer.
Q. What is your wife’s occupation? A. She taught
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
527a
school last year and is back at Duke this year to finish
her Masters, to get her Masters Degree.
Q. Where did she teach last year! A. She taught at
the Henderson High School.
Q. Do you know whether or not that school was deseg
regated? A. Yes, I would say it was.
Q. Do you know whether or not your wife taught both
Negroes and white pupils? A. Yes, I do.
Q. Did she? A. She did, she was teaching Negro and
white students together.
Q. Now, Reverend Wood, have you personally in public
taken a stand on the question of the integration of schools?
A. Yes.
—65—
Q. What has been your stand and where have you taken
it? A. I have stood against any Christian affiliation with
the Ku Klux Klan, in the first place, and I voted for and
endorsed a resolution of the Tar River Baptist Associa
tion with respect to the subject.
Q. What was that resolution, in substance? A. We con
demned the Klan as unChristian and asked our church
members to withdraw their influence from it.
Q. I believe you were a messenger to the Association on
one occasion and stated your views publicly? A. Yes;
that was not the extent of my public stand, but that is
a part of it.
Q. Tell us about your public stand on the race issue.
A. Well, I preached a sermon in January at the Centerville
Church in which I stated that the Bible knew something
about a community that felt threatened by outsiders but
that the truth of the Christian Gospel was inclusive in the
direction toward including all men in the same brother
hood. And I said that my interpretation of the Christian
Deposition of Rev. Frank, Wood
528a
Gospel and of our church constitution was that Negroes
ought to be accepted in worship service if they applied
and that they ought to be considered for membership if
they applied.
- 66-
Q. I neglected to ask you earlier in this examination, but
ask you now, Where are you from? A. I was born in
Miami, Florida, part of my life I lived in Germany, lived
there for a long time. My father was in the Army and
was also a civilian employee of the government of Ger
many. I have lived in Georgia, and in North Carolina,
and in Miami, Florida.
Q. Where is your wife from? A. From Fayetteville,
North Carolina.
Q. She is from down near Fort Bragg? A. Yes, next-
door to Fort Bragg.
Q. Now, apart from the service at which you preached
the sermon you spoke of, and your participation with re
spect to the Resolution of the Tar River Baptist Associa
tion, have you taken any other public stand on desegrega
tion and associated matters otherwise? A. None specifi
cally except the preaching of a baccalaureate sermon which
I preached at the Gold Sand High School in which I there
stated, among other things, that the changes that were
coming over our land in race relation patterns ought to
be understood as the work of God and not on the side of
change. That is essentially what I said.
Q. Now I would like to direct your attention, sir, to the
—67-
month of May 1966 and specifically ask you whether or
not you had occasion, in conjunction with your wife, to
invite a group of persons to your home? A. Yes, we did.
Q. Tell us about that. A. During that month of May
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
529a
my wife and I sent ont letters to all of her students, which
we both signed, and which had the permission—or, anyway,
the Principal of the High School knew about that letter
and had no objection to it—sent ont letters inviting them
to our house for hot dogs, rolls, and home-made ice cream,
asking them to come one afternoon after school. My wife
had different classes and three of them came on Saturday
May 21st, and two classes came to us on May 31st.
Q. Reverend Wood, were those people integrated groups?
A. They were integrated groups.
Q. Had you had prior conversations or gathered impres
sions in Centerville that made you feel that occasions like
this would not cause any particular stir?
Objection, by Yarborough, to the Form.
A. (No answer)
Q. Let’s go back and I ’ll ask you what the reaction was
there at the time of your sermon in which you indicated
that Negroes should be admitted to the Church if they
— 68—
applied? A. It was favorable from all persons who said
anything to me about it, and the people, from whom I
heard a variety of viewpoints, all of them were favorable.
And I was told I had given a moderate but clear state
ment. And six weeks later at a deacons’ meeting at the
church, the deacons when in conversation with me, and I
didn’t bring it up or hint at it or anything of that sort,
but it was brought up at the deacons’ meeting the ques
tion of what the ushers should do if Negroes came to our
church, about seating them, I took the position and the
deacons took the position, and there were seven of them
piesent, that our church constitution and the Gospel clearly
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
530a
required that we seat them in our worship. I advised the
deacons that we need not vote on it, that the policy of
the church, unless it was changed by a vote allowed that,
and they said they would communicate this information
informally to the Chairman of the ushers and individually
volunteered at that meeting that they would even help
clear the way to have Negro members in the church. I
had suggested that perhaps we should have the Member
ship Committee to counsel with anyone who applied for
membership to the church and I recommended this to the
church, and the church adopted this procedure for mem-
—69-
bership, so, on the basis of those kind of responses I as
sumed that the church community was moving in a mod
erate direction on race.
Q. What was your expectation with respect to the party
that you and your wife arranged? A. I will say that my
wife and I both scarcely gave it a second thought. We at
least had been conditioned by the action of the church,
and I assumed on the basis of what had happened in the
church that it would not be a serious problem, particu
larly since it was a private affair, didn’t expect any trouble.
Q. Did you give any consideration to it? That is, the
inviting of the white and Negro students? A . No, sir, we
never have done that.
Q. Will you tell us, please, what events took place at or
near your house on May 21st 1966? A. Well, I don’t re
call what time of day they came, but I think it was at about
2 :00 or 3 :00 o’clock in the afternoon, and when the party
was about two-thirds over along about five or five-thirty
we noticed that there were a lot of cars riding up and
down in front of our house, and they would slow down
and the people in the cars would look at the yard and the
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
531a
house where the students were gathered; some of them
—70—
would drive by a hundred yards or so, would then turn
around and come back and would slow down in front of
our house again down to a very low speed, and some of
them did that three or four times, so that it was very
noticeable. It got to a point where there were cars passing
almost all the time in front of our house.
Q. Was there any trouble among the students them
selves? A. No. Some seemed embarrassed, however, but
that was all.
Q. Did anybody there become injured, get injured or
was anybody there threatened while the party was on?
A. Not to my personal knowledge; I didn’t see or know
of any.
Q. Now, tell us what, if anything, happened, with respect
to your position in the church and the attitude of other
persons, following this first party? A. Well, on Sunday,
which was the 22nd of May, the Chairman of the deacons
said that he had already planned a special deacons meet
ing that coming Friday and that at the meeting he did
not want the party discussed. He said that he had had
people coming to him about the party we had, but that
he wasn’t going to let it be discussed at the Friday meet
ing, that he was going to wait, about the discussion of it,
—71—
and that was all that I heard that morning, but that night
he sent word to me that he wanted to see me.
Q. What was that man’s name? A. Mr. Melville Griffin.
He sent word to me that he wanted to see me and I
offered to go to see him that night but the word was
that I could come in the morning. I went to see him and
he told me that he was obliged, because of the pressure
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
532a
brought to bear on him, to bring this matter up for dis
cussion at that special meeting on Friday. But it was not
called up for discussion or dealt with at that meeting be
cause at that meeting they had to discuss plans for the
parsonage.
Q. Did you have any further discussion about the prob
lem of having had the Negroes at your home for that
party, did you have any discussions with any persons!
A. I had a discussion with him and he said that he
strongly advised me to refrain from having anymore
Negroes at my home, and I said to him, “Suppose I have
occasion to conduct business with Negroes or have a con
ference with Negroes!” and he said, “Well, if you have to
do that take them to a public place, don’t do it at your
house.”
Q. At that time or shortly thereafter did anybody have
- 7 2 -
occasion to tell you about the safety or lack of safety of
your job!
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To the form.
A. (No answer)
Q. Did you have any conversation with anybody with
respect to continuation of membership there at any time!
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
A. Well, at the first deacons meeting, actually it was the
second deacons meeting, the question of my job became
most pressing, and there were other meetings that fol
lowed, and at one of those meetings one of the deacons said
in response to a question from me, “I think you should
resign.”
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
533a
Q. Did he give a reason? A. He said that he thought
that I had simply done something that the community
didn’t in any sense approve, and that I ought to get out,
and he said, and also other deacons said, “It should be
without making a recommendation to the church,” that is,
as to whether I should be fired or not, and agreed that
the matter ought to be brought before the church for them
to decide. So they voted on it at the second meeting to
bring the matter before the church as to whether or not
I could continue as pastor of the church.
—73—
Q. Did you have a second party of the same kind as
your first party? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When did you have that party? A. That was be
tween those two deacons meetings and was May 31st.
Q. What took place at that party? A. Well, there was
awhile during the party when some were riding back and
forth in front of our house, there was a smaller group
that rode back and forth.
Q. How did the groups compare as to size, those that
came to the first party and those that came to the second
party, and how many Negroes were there? A. At the
first party there were 7 Negroes and 35 whites, and in
the second group there were 3 Negroes and about 15 or 18
white people.
Q. Do you still have your job? A. Yes.
Q. What has been the latest development as to that?
A. Well, I went off on a vacation a week before they were
supposed to vote.
Q. When was that? A. They were supposed to vote
on June 19th and I went off about a week prior to that
weekend and during that time the former pastor of the
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
534a
church heard that the vote was coming up and he counseled
with the deacons, asked them to recommend instead that
the church not vote, but wait, and he was instrumental
in procuring another former pastor of the church, a semi
nary professor, and they counseled with the deacons about
that, talked it over and agreed to that.
Mr. Yarborough: I couldn’t hear just what you
said. Were you present when they talked it over.
A. No, I was not present when they talked it over, they
just told me what occurred.
Q. Proceed, Reverend Wood. A. They agreed to recom
mend that the church not vote at the present time but that
they wait and see before they engaged another pastor, and
on June 19th that recommendation was unanimously
adopted by the church. I might add, also, that in line
with the way the Baptists do things, that at the end of
that service there were a large number of people who
came forward on invitation in rededication and recommit
ment to the church.
Q. Between the first meeting and the second meeting
did you have occasion to meet with seven of your deacons!
—75-
A. The first meeting?
Q. No, I mean between the first party and the second
party. A. That was the first deacons meeting, yes, and
they agreed, or some of them did, to take no action, and
I indicated to them that I didn’t see that there was any
action to be taken, that I wasn’t willing to be told by the
deacons that I couldn’t have anymore parties, and I asked
them if I had a second party if they would support me,
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
— 7 4 -
535a
continue to support me as pastor, and two said Yes and
five said No.
Q. Do you believe you have given a fair synopsis of the
events f
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
A. (No answer)
Q. Do you believe that you have given a fair synopsis
of the events arising out of those two parties'?
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough.
A. Well, let me think about that for a minute. This that
I am thinking of now is only an impression of mine but
I am willing to convey it nonetheless. The deacons im
pressed me with the fact of how strongly they were re
acting to the community; they told me that people in the
community were down their necks and that they just had
to do something about it. Also I noticed very pointedly
—76—
one deacon who said, “I really don’t have enough Christian
ity to take the right stand here.” And he said, “It would
hurt my business and endanger my family if I did.”
Q. Now, directing your attention back to two weeks ago
or less than two weeks ago, I ask you if anything unusual
happened at your home? A. Well, we got up on Friday
morning. We get up at 6:00 o’clock, and when I got up
that Friday morning I saw a cross burned on the lawn.
Q. Please describe that cross. A. It was, roughly, 6
feet tall, was made out of undressed wood, I mean it was
made out of a twig about 2 or 3 inches in diameter across
and was wrapped in burlap and wired and burned, all
charred up. I still have the cross.
536a
Q. But you didn’t bring it to court with you? A. No,
sir.
Q. Reverend Wood, have you been advised of the Order
which was issued by Judge Butler in this case yesterday!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you read that order? A. Yes, I have.
Q. So that you are familiar with the contents of it?
- 7 7 -
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When I was at your home last evening did you ex
press an opinion to me as to1 whether or not you thought
the freedom of choice would work satisfactorily in Frank
lin County? A. Yes, I think I did.
Q. What was your opinion which you expressed at that
time? A. I said I didn’t think it could work.
Q. Is that still your opinion? A. Well, under the terms
of that Order I can’t be so sure it won’t work, my own
feeling is that regardless of what anyone official says the
community has learned to not pay too much attention to
what is said officially either by the Federal Government,
the School Board, or anyone else and the attitude in our
community about anything in connection with the Federal
Government is simply sheer defiance. I don’t know if it
will work or not, to tell you the truth.
Q. Have you been advised that the District Judge, Judge
Butler, is trying to secure cooperation from all groups,
Negroes, whites, and officials, and those who are not offi
cials, trying to make freedom of choice work? A. Yes.
Q. In spite of your fears are you prepared to do your
—78-
best to make it work?
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To the form.
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Yon are! A. Yes.
Q. Are you planning to take some steps in that direc
tion? A. Yes, I am.
Q. Describe the steps that yon are planning to take?
A. I tentatively plan to read at least part of the Court
Order in church Sunday and appeal to the people to help
to make it work.
Mr. Schwelb: Those are all the questions I have
now.
Mr. Chambers: No questions.
Cross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. You say you are going to your membership with it,
is your membership wholly white? A. Yes.
Q. You are going to appeal to the white people, your
congregation, to help make the freedom of choice plan
work? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You realize, do you, that to make the plan work will
require the cooperation of the colored people? A. Cer
tainly.
— 79—
Q. Do you plan to appeal to them in any way, the Ne
groes? A. I plan to make such an appeal to them in my
remarks. I’m going to prepare my remarks and put them
on paper, since I plan to mimeograph my statement, and
I assume it may get into the hands of some colored people,
and my remarks will indicate an appeal to them, as well.
Q- You realize that if they fail to apply for the schools
of their choice the plan will not work? A. Yes, and I am
concerned about that. I think, I hope that they will apply.
Q. Mr. Wood, how long have you been there at the
538a
Centerville Church, the Centerville Baptist Church? A.
I have been there since April of 1965.
Q. Is your church the only church in the town of Center
ville? A. Yes.
Q. And you have some 200 to 250 members? A. That
many on the roll, hut they are not all active.
Q. How many people will your church seat? A. I ex
pect it would seat 200 people.
Q. And what did you say your average attendance is?
A. About 130 in the winter and an average of about 100
in the summer.
Q. So then you have an attendance at your church of
some 100 to 130, and they are usually about the same
—80-
people who are attending? A. Yes.
Q. Unless it is some unusual occasion? A. That’s right.
Q. Why do you want to put what you have to say on
paper? A. I want it in sufficient quantity so that it can
be circulated outside of the church.
Q. Does your congregation rent a parsonage for you to
live in or is it owned by the church? A. It is rented by
the church for me. It is just half a house, half of a duplex,
Q. Is it located on the church grounds? A. No, the
church is right around the corner from the house, bach
toward the Gold Sand School, around that corner.
Q. Near where a Methodist church was? A. Yes.
Q. Now, as to that resolution of the Tar Biver Baptist
Association condemning the Ku Klux Klan, at what meet
ing was that resolution passed, when was that? A. It was
last fall, sometime in the fall of 1965.
Q. So, in the fall of 1965 the Tar Biver Baptist Asso
ciation had in attendance Messengers from 25 churches is
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
539a
Franklin County? A. I don’t know exactly the number in
—81—
the County but that sounds about right as to the number.
Q. Practically all of the Baptist churches attending that
meeting are white people, the churches belonging to the
Association? A. Yes.
Q. And practically all of the Messengers from those
churches attended? A. Practically all of them.
Q. So about how many Messengers were there? A.
There must have been about 100, and there were other
people there who were not official Messengers but who
were members of the various churches, and there were
many alternates, so that I would say there were altogether
150 to 175 in attendance when a vote was taken on the
resolution, and the vote on it was 95 to 11, something like
that.
Q. So in the fall of 1965 after the schools in Franklin
County were desegregated, at one of the conventions of
the Tar River Baptist Association attended by approxi
mately 25 churches from Franklin County, Messengers rep
resenting the churches in that Association by a vote of
almost 10 to 1 approved the resolution condemning the
Ku Klux Elan? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And your congregation with an enrollment of ap-
—82—
proximately 225 and with an average attendance at your
services of 100 to 130 approved at a congregational meet
ing the matter of seating colored people in your church?
A. Well, the question of seating colored people was decided
hy the deacons and not by the congregation.
Q. When was the change in membership procedure made
with reference to receiving members into your church? A.
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
540a
The change of membership procedure was in February,
this past February.
Q. So in February of 1966 at a Congregational Meeting
of your church the membership voted to change the mem
bership admitting procedure so that it was possible for
colored people to be admitted to membership? A. I had
said in my sermon that, but that was in January when I
explained that to the deacons, but in February we didn’t
discuss the question of whether Negroes would apply for
membership on the floor of the church, but simply pre
sented this plan and adopted it without too much discus
sion, and the plan was that when anybody applied for
admission to the church it would not be voted on immedi
ately but would be voted on within three weeks and that
in the meantime such applicant would counsel with the
Committee appointed by the church with the Pastor as
Chairman.
—83-
Q. You recommended that? A. Yes, I recommended that
in my sermon, and it was favored at the deacons meeting,
was passed on by them.
Q. So the congregation passed upon the recommenda
tion you made in your sermon, regarding membership of
people coming into the church? A. Yes.
Q. And you were entirely in accord with it? A. With
this procedure, yes.
Q. And that was in February of 1966? A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember how many people were in attend
ance, how many were in the congregation on that day or
evening? A. The date of the vote?
Q. Yes. A. There was a normal attendance.
Q. Reverend Wood, when your Board of Deacons tool:
that vote on the seating of colored people in your church
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
541a
do you remember about what month that was? A. That
also was in February. I might point out that they did not
vote to seat Negroes, however, for I had advised them
that unless they voted not to seat Negroes that they didn’t
need to vote because, as I interpreted the policy of the
church and the Holy Bible, they would be seated, and
—84—
they agreed with me that they would be seated.
Q. So in February of 1966 your Board of Deacons agreed
with you? A. Yes.
Q. That in an absence of a vote of the deacons barring
colored people from your church they would be seated?
A. Yes.
Q. Any who appeared would be seated in the congrega
tion? A. Exactly.
Q. And the Board of Deacons approved that. A. Yes.
Q. And you recommended that they approve it? A. I
favored the policy, yes.
Q. It was in accord with your views? A. It was. I
wouldn’t say it was a formal vote, it was not a formal
vote, it was unanimous, everyone agreed with the step.
Q. Normally in the Baptist persuasion when members
are admitted they are present at the time? A. That is
the normal procedure, yes. I pointed out in my sermon
that if a Negro were to apply for membership I would
have no other choice but to present it for a vote at the
time.
Q. It is the normal thing in your church when new mem
bers are being admitted, for the congregation to partici
pate? A. Yes.
Q. You vote them into your church, so to speak? A.
Yes.
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
542a
Q. And after a trial period you can vote them out? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Now, that occurred in February of 1966 and I want
you to tell me what time it was in May that you and your
wife wrote letters to her students inviting them to a party?
A. Well, there was a party planned earlier than that, but
it was canceled because of rain. I think the letters were
sent out in late April.
Q. You say that your wife taught in Henderson High
School last year? A. Yes.
Q. That school is located in Vance County? A. Yes,
it is.
Q. And it is not in Franklin County? A. No.
Q. And that school is about 30 miles from Centerville!
A. It is about 22 miles from Centerville.
Q. What grade did she teach there? A. She had high
school courses in French, four classes in French, and one
class in English.
- 86-
Q. So she had five groups of students? A. That’s cor
rect.
Q. And how many white and how many colored students
did she have in those different groups, if you know? A.
I don’t know exactly. I do know that one of her classes
was approximately half and half, and that others did not
have that many Negroes in them. At one time she must
have had in all of her classes about 30 Negro students.
Q. And there were approximately how many white stu
dents in them? A. Well, in the five classes there must
have been 100 or 120 white students, and 30 colored.
Q. And your wife invited the students to come to your
home to a party there, an entertainment, where refresh
ments would be served? A. That’s right.
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
543a
Q. Where hot dogs and rolls and home-made ice cream
would he served? A. That’s right.
Q. A cookout, as it were? A. Yes.
Q. And you say at the first party she had there were
35 white students and 7 colored students that came to the
party? A. Yes, sir.
—87—
Q. And that was on the 22nd day of May? A. No, that
was the 21st of May on a Saturday.
Q. Then the second party was how much later than the
first? A. It was 10 days later. Three of her classes came
the first day, and two of her classes came to the second
party.
Q. Mr. Melville Griffin, the Chairman of your Board of
Deacons, expressed his opinion about your party, did he?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What was it he said? A. He said that so far as he
was personally concerned he didn’t have any objection to
it, but that he was sure that the community couldn’t stand it,
and this, now, was after his second contact with me when
he said this would be brought up at the special meeting of
deacons.
Q. Did it come up at the special meeting of the deacons ?
A. Yes, it was brought up then.
Q. And what do you say happened there? A. Well, we
discussed the matter and I explained to them what had
happened and told them that I had a second group already
invited to come, and I discussed with them the question
of having them come to the party, and one of them said
— 88—
he would be willing to go up to the school and tell them
they shouldn’t come.
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
544a
Q. Who was that person? A. That was Mr. Edward
Radford.
Q. He is a member of your church? A. Yes, he is a
deacon in the church. Incidentally, I did not tell them
whether I was going to have the second party at my house
or not. It was suggested that I have it somewhere else
but I was very reluctant to do that, but I didn’t tell them
on that Friday night what I was going to do but, as I
said, between Friday night and Sunday I had the second
party and I informed the church of it that Sunday.
Q. Now, the time when you say the people came forward
and rededicated themselves to the church, when was that?
A. That was when it was voted not to vote on my tenure
of office. A. And you say that you had two parties at
your house for your wife’s pupils, then you spoke in the
church and then sometime later on you made a talk re
garding race matters? A. Yes. And they voted not to
vote on me, and that was on June 19th. In my sermon I
didn’t deal directly with race then, but there was a large
response.
—89—
Q. They voted not to take any action with respect to
terminating your pastoral relationship? A . That’s right.
There was no unusual argument. The people came forward
and rededicated themselves.
Q. They rededicated themselves and were you proud of
having them come forward? A . W ell, I was impressed.
Q. By the number that came forward? A. By the gen
eral response of the church members. I was impressed
with the Christian fellowship and the Christian faith. It
wasn’t unanimous, however, and there are some who haven’t
been back to church since then.
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
545a
Q. But the deacons have not discharged you? A, Well,
no, they can’t do that; the church has to do that, the con
gregation.
Q. You are still their minister? A. Yes, sir.
Q. There at the church? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you give me the names of the members of your
Board of Deacons? A. Melville Griffin, Edward Radford,
Lonnie Radford, Moses Sykes, Troy Collins, Ernest Hol
land Denton, Lee Bowman, Archie Thompson, Garner De
ment.
—90—
Q. Do they all live in or near the town of Centerville?
A. One of them lives in Raleigh.
Q. Does he still maintain his membership? A. Yes.
Q. Who is he? A. Mr. Lee Bowman—There are two of
them that live in Raleigh, Lee Bowman and Troy Collins
both live in Raleigh.
Q. For what term are the deacons in your church elected,
for one year, or two years, or what? A. They are elected
for three years, staggered terms, three each year.
Q. When did you come to the Centerville Church? A.
In April of 1965.
Q. You have from time to time preached regarding the
race situation? A. Actually my first sermon on race was
in January of 1966. I had made references to my conclu
sions earlier hut as far as the actual integration question
went, had not until that sermon.
Q. Did you preach that sermon to a normal size con
gregation? A. Yes—well, now, the day of my Race ser
mon in January there was a big snow that day and the
attendance was small.
Q. But you had some people there? A. Oh, yes.
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
—91-
Q. So in January of 1966 you preached a sermon on the
subject and prior to that time you had expressed open op
position to the Ku Klux Klan, in the church there? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And you had a mixed group of students in your home
on two occasions? A. Yes.
Q. And you attended the Tar River Baptist Association
meeting at which the resolution was voted against the Klan,
was presented and adopted? A. Yes, I was there, and
voted for it, and of course there were other Messengers
there who voted for the resolution, Ernest Powell, Holland
Denton, Bonnie G-upton, and Melville Griffin, they all voted
for the resolution.
Q. Do I understand from you that these matters were
pretty well known to the community? A. That’s correct.
Q. Almost so soon as you got there you made your views
known? A. Well, actually I had not said much about the
subject from April until October.
Q. October of 1965? A. That’s right.
Q. So from October 1965 on it was pretty well known
—92-
by your congregation what your views were and your con
gregation was composed wholely by members of the com
munity there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the people knew you took that position? A. Yes.
Q. And the church has certainly not discharged yon?
A. No.
Q. You are still the pastor there and the deacons have
not voted to discharge you? A. No.
Q. And you still perform your services, perform the
communion, baptisms, burials, and weddings, if any, such
rites? A. That’s right.
Q. You are conducting your normal pastoral duties there
547a
and in addition yon preached the baccalaureate sermon at
the Gold Sand School? A. That’s correct.
Q. You were invited to preach that sermon by the local
people? A. By the senior class.
Q. And you preached that sermon and white people in
vited you? A. Yes, sir.
—93—
Q. When did you receive that invitation? A. I received
it hack in February or March. I was told about it by the
senior teacher.
Q. Who was that? A. Lois Carson. Later, after the
party and before the baccalaureate sermon was preached,
two or three students had asked her if they couldn’t with
draw my invitation.
Q. That was sometime in the latter part of May that
you were told that two or three students asked if the in
vitation might be withdrawn ? A. That’s right. There was
a large outcry, a big uproar, and some of the students were
bitterly opposed to my party while some were very much
in favor of it.
Q. But yon did preach the baccalaureate sermon anyway?
A. Yes.
Q. The school committee did invite you and you did come
there and you preached there? A. That’s right.
Q. Is Harold Dickerson a member of your church? A.
Not that I know of.
Q- Is 0. K. Tharrington a, member of your church? A.
Not that I know of, no.
Q. Is Joe Denton a member of your church? A. Not
that I know of.
Q- Are they members of the school committee at the Gold
- 9 4 -
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
Sand School? A. I don’t know.
548a
Q. You preached the baccalaureate sermon along about
June 6th or 8th at the Gold Sand School? A. That’s right.
Q. And your meeting with the deacons came after that?
A. Let’s see—No, I don’t think the deacons meeting was
after the sermon.
Q. After the baccalaureate sermon was this discussed
at your meeting or meetings with them? A. We had two
meetings a month, had it on the first Saturday in the
month, a meeting of the deacons.
Q. After the sermon? A. One, we had one. We had a
meeting for the vote on June 19th, and this other was on
Saturday June 4th.
Q. Just a day or two before your sermon? A. Yes.
Q. And they did not vote on June 19th hut postponed it
for further consideration? A. That’s right. Now the meet
ing at which they decided to recommend a postponement
or not to vote I wasn’t in that deacons meeting. That meet
ing was on Tuesday night the 14th of June and I was not
present.
Q. Your church rule requires you normally to have
notice, you were supposed to be notified of all meetings?
A. That’s right. I wasn’t notified of it.
—95-
Q. That is, your deacons failed to notify you? A. Yes,
sir. However, I might point out that the man who was
invited to come and counsel with the deacons came by my
house and told me that he was going to that meeting, but
I wasn’t there. I was at a baseball game that night, but
my wife told me that he was there.
Q. What was that man’s name? A. Mr. Eugene Owens.
Q. He used to he Pastor at the Centerville Baptist
Church? A. Yes, he is a former pastor, and he came down
there and counseled with them.
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
549a
Q. Now, is Paul Childers a member of your church? A .
Yes.
Q. He is engaged in business there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is he a minister of the Gospel, also? A. Yes, he is,
but he is not actively preaching.
Q. But he is a minister? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Has he been defrocked, or anything of that sort? A.
No.
Q. Now, you say that a meeting of the Board of Deacons
was held between the two parties which you had at your
home, and you said that there was a vote taken by the
- 9 6 -
Board of Deacons and that two voted Yes and five voted No.
A. Well, I asked them individually, “Would you continue
to support me as pastor if I had a second party?”, asked
them that individually, and two said Yes, and five said No.
Q. Who were the two that said Yes? A. Lee Bowman
and Ernest Holland Denton.
Q. And who were the five that voted No? A. Well, they
all voted who were present, all voted except Troy Collins
and Moses Sykes, who were not there.
Q. How about Melville Griffin? A. He was one of them.
And Garner Dement, Edward and Lonnie Radford, and
Archie Thompson.
Q. Which one of the deacons was it that said he didn’t
have Christianity enough to do something, who was that,
and what was it he said? A. That was Edward Radford
who said that he didn’t have enough Christianity to take
the right stand. He said that at the first deacons meeting.
Q- You stated that you had considerable support in your
congregation as pastor, is that correct? A. I don’t know
if I said that or not. But I think I do.
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
550a
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
-9 7 -
Q. Do you think you had as much support after these
things happened as you did before? A. Not as much as
I did before.
Q. But you have considerable support? A. I would
term it considerable support.
Q. The Town of Centerville is incorporated? A. Yes.
It is a little place.
Q. It has about 300 people in the town? A. I think there
are about 300 people in it.
Q. And how far is Centerville from the Gold Sand
School? A. Bight around four miles.
Q. How far is it from Perry’s School? A. It is a mile
or two less, Perry’s School is between Centerville and
Gold Sand School.
Q. Both are on the same road? A. Yes.
Q. And you say that on May 21st when you had your
party a large number of cars passed back and forth in
front of your house? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you recognize any of the drivers of those cars
or the occupants of any of those cars? A. Yes. Several
were members of my church; some I recognized and some
I didn’t recognize.
—98-
Q. Will you give us those names ? A. The names of the
people I recognized?
Q. Yes. A. Garner Dement, Lloyd Gupton, Melville
Griffin, George Raynor, Jr., Lloyd Gupton’s daughter, Jo
Ann Watkins; Willard Leonard and his son Tommy.
Thurman Thomas drove by twice.
Q. Is he the only one that drove by twice? A. No, there
were more than one that drove by more than once. I have
not mentioned any one that drove by just once.
551a
Q. Were they all members of your church? A. Yes. I
didn’t recognize anybody except church members.
Q. Most of those lived in the Centerville community?
A. Yes.
Q. Lloyd Gupton is the chairman of the church’s Finance
Committee? A. No, Lee Bowman is Chairman, but he is
a member of the Finance Committee, Lloyd Gupton is.
Lee Bowman lives in Raleigh.
Q. He is a member of your Board of Deacons ? A. Yes.
And I might add, that certainly there were just as many
people there that I didn’t recognize, probably more that
drove by that I did not know.
Q. You say your wife will not teach this coming year,
—99—
but will be going to Duke? A. That’s correct.
Q. And you have been attending the Seminary in Wake
Forest? A. Yes, this is my last year.
Q. Do you expect to continue preaching at the Center
ville Baptist Church? A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, I believe you said that you did preach the
baccalaureate sermon at the Gold Sand School, there in
the auditorium? A. Yes.
Q. And there were some 25 or so graduates, seniors?
A. That’s right.
Q- And that was on a Sunday, June 5th, and your con
gregation has not voted upon any action yet as to whether
or not you are to continue as pastor, continue in that
relationship there? A. That’s right.
Q- Will you finish at the Seminary next June? A. It
will be in May, believe it ends in May.
Q- The academic year ends there in May? A. That’s
correct.
Q- T h at s e m in a r y is o p e r a te d b y th e B a p t is t C o n v e n tio n
0r the B a p tis t d e n o m in a tio n ? A . C o r r e c t .
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
552a
- 100-
Q. And that Seminary is located at Wake Forest, North
Carolina? A. That’s right.
Direct Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Do yon have an opinion as to why freedom of choice
hasn’t worked in Franklin County?
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Please state that opinion. A. I think the reason it
didn’t work in the first place is because the names of the
students were known, which resulted in intimidation, and
I think that another general cause was that Franklin is
such a stronghold of the Ku Klux Klan which has caused
an atmosphere on up until now that has been so bitter
that everyone in the County knows that for a Negro stu
dent to apply for transfer to a white school is not the
thing to do.
Q. You spoke of the resolution passed by your conven
tion, condemning the Klan, condemning the activities of
the Klan? A. That’s correct.
Q. Do you know of any effort having been made or any
— 101-
statement that has been made by the Franklin County
Board of Education that was designed to retard or deter
the activities of the Klan or other vigilante groups in
Franklin County?
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To the form.
A. Do I know of any effort or statement made by the
whole Board to do what, to restrain the Klan?
Deposition of Dev. Frank Wood
553a
Q. Yes, or anything else they have done to deter the
Klan, any activity of the Klan, or any similar vigilante
groups! A. No, I have never heard of any. I have not
heard of anything like that except that resolution passed
by the Tar River Baptist Association; that is the only
public statement I have seen.
Redirect Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. You do not think free choice will work! A. No. I
don’t think the choice is really free.
Further Cross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. In your answer given a few moments ago you used
the word “everyone” ; did you mean to include in that you
and me, what did you mean by that! A. I mean that is
the general concensus, that that is generally the accepted
attitude in the county.
Q. White and colored! A. I meant the white community.
— 102—
Q. You restrict your statement now to the white com
munity, do you, when you said “everyone” in the commu
nity just now you now restrict it to the white community,
do you! A. Yes. I was stating my opinion.
Q. Well, you said “everyone” and I just want to know
if you meant everyone! A. I mean that that is the gen
eral concensus.
Q- Do you know any members of the Board of Educa
tion! A. I know one of them, Mr. Lloyd West.
Q- Is he the only member of the Board that you know!
A. I don’t know him very well, just know him.
Q. Have you express his opinion on this matter! A.
On what matter!
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
554a
Q. This matter of free choice and the desegregation of
the schools'? A. No.
Q. He was at the Association meeting when the resolu
tion was proposed and he offered an amendment to the
resolution, did he not? A. Yes.
Q. What was that amendment? A. His amendment was
to the effect that condemnation of the NAACP should he
included, and it was defeated. All of our votes were against
the amendment.
—103—
Q. Are you a member of the NAACP? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever been a member of that organization!
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know anything about what their activities are!
A. The main thing I know about their activities is that
they make legal challenges.
Q. Legal challenges with respect to desegregation? A.
Yes.
Q. Do you know of any other activities of theirs? A.
My impression is that that is their main activity. I don’t
know too much about their activities. I think they are
trying to do something about voter registration.
Q. And those same people in your association, your
Baptist Association, voted against Mr. West’s amendment!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know that a cross was burned in front of Mr.
West’s house? A. No. I was told that his business has
suffered during the past two years because of some alleged
sympathy for the Negroes. His pastor said that it was
hearsay, that it was a mistake, that he was the wrong
man, that they should not be getting after him because
that was all a mistake.
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
—104—
Q. Do you know Mr. Clint Fuller? A. I know of Mm.
Q. Did you know that a cross was burned in front of
his place of business? A. I know that, yes. I didn’t know
anything about Mr. Lloyd West’s cross directly.
Q. What did you mean when you said you had not heard
of any statement by the Board of Education regarding
this matter? A. I said I hadn’t seen any statement by
the Board tending to restrain or discourage the Klan.
Q. You haven’t seen one from the encouraging the Klan,
either, have you? A. No, I have seen no certain state
ment either way.
Q. And you say Mr. West wanted your Association in
their resolution to condemn the NAACP also; but you
have never yet heard anything that the Board has had
to say about that, have you, first hand? A. I have read
some statements in the newspaper about the Board mem
bers, is all.
Q. You spoke about about the Ku Klux Klan with refer
ence to members of your congregation? A. Yes.
—105—
Q. Do you know any members of your church who are
members of the Ku Klux Klan? A. No. Of course we
don’t know who the Klan members are for sure. I have
members in the church who are suspected of being Klans-
men by the rest of the church.
Q. Do you know of anybody, whether he be a member
of your church or not, that is a Klansman in Franklin
County or in your community? A. Not for certain I don’t
know of any Klansmen.
Q. So when you speak of the Klan you are speaking
°f the organization because you do not know any mem-
556a
bers of it to your own knowledge, do you? A. That’s
correct.
Q. You do not know of your own knowledge where they
live or where they come from, whether they ride or walk,
don’t know anything about them of your own knowledge!
A. That’s right, I don’t.
Q. That is throughout Franklin County, within the
county you know none? A. I don’t know any of them.
Q. And at best you can only say that there may be several
members of the Klan in your church, people who you say
—106-
some of the members of your church are suspicious of
being Klansmen? A. That’s correct.
Q. Have you taken any action tending toward the ex
pulsion of any members from your church because they
are suspected members of the Klan? A. No.
Q. I believe you stated that your church can expel mem
bers? A. Theoretically, yes.
Q. You can vote them out? A. Certainly. It is done
under our constitution.
Q. Now, you travel freely, do you not, on the roads and
anywhere in Franklin County when you want to go any
where? A. Yes.
Q. You freely ride, during the school year, backward
and forward to the Seminary located in the Town of Wake
Forest? A. That’s right.
Q. And your wife rides backward and forward to school
from your home, does she? A. That’s right.
Q. And you freely travel the public roads from Center-
—107-
ville to Wake Forest, while your wife travels back and
forth to her school, and without threats or molestation?
A. That’s correct.
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
557a
Q. And you travel freely in the Town of Centerville,
going into places of business there whenever you want to
go to them? A. Certainly.
Q. And you ride from your home to church to your work
frequently? A. Yes.
Q. And you have to travel along the public roads in
doing that? A. Yes.
Q. And your church is located at or near the U. S. High
way 401 and State Highway 561 and the roads from there
to Ealeigh are heavily traveled? A. Yes.
Q. And the members of your church built a brand new
parsonage for the church and have a new program going
now? A. That’s right.
Q. That special meeting in June was a meeting to con
sider a new parsonage? A. That was a special meeting
for that purpose, and it was held after my party on the
— 108—
21st of May, that being the date of my party.
Q. So members of your church as late as the latter part
of May were considering a new parsonage and at that
meeting they made a decision not to bring up the party,
but to wait, and take up the parsonage matter? A. Yes.
Q. That church is not a rich church, is it? A. No, sir,
we are not rich.
Q. And when that church was built some years ago the
congregation had to go into debt in order to build the
church building? A. Yes, sir.
Further Redirect Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. He asked you whether or not you suspected any of
your church members of being Klansmen; and you an-
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
558a
swered that there were members of your church who did
have such suspicions; are there any people in your con
gregation that you are suspicious of? A. No.
Q. Now, with respect to Mr. West, who is a member of
the School Board, you say he voted to condemn the NAACP,
-109-
is that right? A. Yes, he made a motion to include them
in the resolution.
Q. As far as you know has Mr. West attempted to inte
grate the schools in Franklin County?
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To the form.
A. I don’t really know.
Q. Do you know whether or not the NAACP is engaged
in activities of that kind? A. I have heard that the NAA
CP is so engaged, but that is all I know about it.
Q. Mr. West is a member of the School Board? A. Yes.
Q. Do you personally know of any other contact or con
nection with the NAACP that Mr. West has had with ref
erence to integration of the schools? A. No, I don’t.
Recross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Do you know how Mr. West voted on that resolution
condemning the Klan? A. I believe he voted against it.
Q. He is a member of the Sandy Creek Church? A.
Yes.
— 110-
Q. Didn’t you testify earlier that you thought that all
members of the Sandy Creek delegation voted for the
resolution? A. I said my Centerville members voted for
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
559a
it and voted against the amendment. I don’t know how
the others voted.
Q. It was a free vote proposition? A. Yes.
Q. A man could vote like he pleased? A. That’s right.
Q. You didn’t attempt to influence your delegates? A.
That’s correct. I didn’t even discuss it with the delegates.
Q. So you did not attempt to influence them as to how
they should vote? A. No, I did not.
Q. You didn’t ask the delegates, didn’t talk to them indi
vidually, about how they felt? A. That’s right.
Q. And you say that there is a provision in your church,
in the Baptist Church, for dismissing a man from the
church, you say that theoretically for any reason if the
congregation wanted to vote him out it can do so, and
he is out? A. Yes. We don’t have any procedural safe-
— 111-
guards, anything like that.
Q. And if for any reason the congregation votes him out,
he is out, if the majority of the congregation sees fit to
vote that way? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Yarborough: I have no further questions.
Mrs. Schwelb: You are excused, Reverend Wood.
(Witness Excused)
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
560a
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
- 112-
Rev. Luther Coppedge, a witness for the plaintiffs, being
duly sworn, deposes and says:
Direct Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Please state your name, your race, your age, and
your address. A. Reverend Luther Coppedge, Negro, age
38 years, I live in Louisburg, North Carolina, in Franklin
County.
Q. What is your occupation! A. I am a minister.
Q. How long have you lived in Franklin County? A.
Thirty-four years.
Q. Are you married? A. Yes.
Q. What is your wife’s name? A. Christine Elizabeth
Coppedge.
Q. Have you any children? A. Yes, I have one son.
Q. What is his name? A. Harold Douglas Coppedge.
Q. Is Harold Douglas Coppedge, your son, a plaintiff in
this ease of Harold Douglas Coppedge, a minor, by his
father Reverend Luther Coppedge, et al, against The
Franklin County Board of Education? A. That’s correct,
yes, sir.
—113—
Q. For what purpose was this lawsuit brought? A.
Well, I requested the transfer of my son to an all white
school and it was denied.
Q. Were you also trying to desegregate the school sys
tem in the county? A. Yes, I wanted that too.
Q. Reverend Coppedge, are you a member of the
NAACP? A. Yes, I am.
Q. Tell us about your activities with that organization.
A. Well, I haven’t had too much activity with the NAACP,
mostly I am only a member.
561a
Q. Has that organization supported school desegrega
tion? If you know. A. I think so.
Q. How old is your son, Harold Douglas Coppedge? A.
He is 16.
Q. What grade has Harold just completed? A. The
10th. And I want you to back up there for a minute. You
asked me if the NAACP supported school desegregation;
do you mean financially, or just what do you mean by that?
Q. I mean have they supported it in any way. A. They
haven’t financially, have not financially. They are not finan
cially able to desegregate the schools.
Q. Did you say just now that Harold has just been pro-
—114—
moted to the 10th grade or that he has completed the 10th
grade? A. He has completed the 10th grade.
Q. What school did he complete the 10th grade in? A.
Perry’s High School.
Q. Is Perry’s High School attended by white or Negro
students? A. It is attended by Negro students.
Q. Have any white students ever attended that school?
A. No.
Q. Do you know of any white faculty stall members in
that school? A. No.
Q. State whether or not on behalf of your son you applied
for assignment of him to any other school last year. A.
Yes, I applied for him to attend the Edward Best High
School.
Q. What is the composition of the students that attend
the Edward Best High School? A. I don’t know exactly,
hut I understand there are about 200 students there.
Q. I asked you the question in the wrong way. I want to
know whether white students go there or Negro students
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
562a
or both. A. Oh, just white students attend that high
school.
Q. What part of the county do you live in Reverend Cop-
—115—
podge ? A. I live in the southern part of the county.
Q. What is the community called in which you live? A.
It is called the Justice community.
Q. How far do you live from Perry’s High School and
how far do you live from the Edward Best High School!
A. I live 16 miles from Perry’s and I live 3% miles from
the Edward Best High School.
Q. Will you give us some reasons which entered your
mind and caused you to decide to apply for the transfer of
your son to the Edward Best High School? A. My main
reason was the nearness of the school, that was my main
reason.
Q. How did your son get to Perry’s school? A. On the
bus.
Q. How long does it take him to make the trip, ordi
narily? A. About 45 minutes.
Q. Forty-five minutes each way? A. Yes.
Q. How long does it take to ride the bus from your home
to the Edward Best High School ? A. Right at 15 minutes.
Q. One way? A. Yes.
Q. What other reasons were in your mind, if any, in
—116-
addition to the nearness of the school to your home? A.
Well, there was a course of study being offered in Agri
culture there which I wanted him to take, and he was
going to take that course if he had been permitted to
attend that school.
Q. Did you apply for your son to be permitted to attend
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
563a
a formerly all white school with your son’s consent or
without your son’s consent ? A. With his consent.
Q. Did he want to go to that school or not? A. Yes, he
wanted to go there.
Q. How about your wife, what was her attitude about it?
A. She wanted him to go there, both of us wanted him
to go there.
Q. Now, at the time you filed the application for transfer
was that an application for lateral transfer? A. I think
so. I don’t know any difference in the transfers, though.
Q. At that time were you given any notice of any criteria
that was required for lateral transfer? A. No, I -was not.
Q. If you recall, what reason did you place on the ap
plication? A. The nearness of the school.
Q. Was that, in fact, the only reason you gave?
—117-
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough. To the form.
A. That was my main reason.
Q. I believe you stated that that was one of the reasons ?
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough.
A. (No answer)
Q. What was one of the other reasons that you wanted
him to go to that school? A. I wanted him to take the
Agriculture course there.
Q. Are you a farmer? A. Yes, I am.
Q. If you had known that one of the criteria being con
sidered by the Board was because the applicant wanted to
take another course, would you have written anything dif
ferent into that application ?
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
Objection, by Mr. Yarborough, To the form.
564a
A. Yes, I would have included the other subject, the sub
ject he was unable to get at the school he is presently
attending.
Q. Did you know at that time that you were supposed to
put all the reasons on there that occurred to you? A. No,
I did not.
Q. Now, do you take the Franklin Times, that news
paper? A. Yes, I take it.
Q. Do you recall whether or not the names of the persons
—118—
applying for transfer to formerly all white schools were
published in the Franklin Times in June of last year? A.
Yes, they were published.
Q. Was your name in there? A. Yes, it was.
Q. Do you have any personal knowledge as to whether
or not that list of names was given out over the air on
radio? A. I heard it was, but I didn’t hear it myself.
Q. Now, after that list came out in that newspaper did
any incidents occur at your home of an unpleasant nature!
A. Yes, we began receiving telephone calls that were anony
mous. There would be one call after the other and that
lasted for a couple of weeks, phone calls that lasted through
the night, and they bothered us.
Q. What did the anonymous callers say when you an
swered the phone? A. Well, most of the time we heard
someone breathing in, hut twice a man asked me had I
heard of one of my neighbors who was sick and had been
taken to Goldsboro, and I told him I had not; yet, I had
heard it that morning; he said, “Didn’t he have some
children in Edward Best?” And I said, “Not that I know
of.”
Q. Who was that neighbor? A. Joe Spivey.
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
— 119-
565a
Q. Had Joe Spivey applied for one or more of Ms cMl-
dren to attend the Edward Best High School? A. Yes,
he had.
Q. What was meant by the Goldsboro reference? A.
That had reference to the mental hospital over there.
Q. Do you recall any other telephone calls that yon re
ceived? A. Yes, about 30 minutes from then on that same
day I received another call and it was a different voice but
what was said was almost the same thing the other person
had said, asked almost the same thing, Had I heard that
Joe Spivey had gone to Dix Hill and I said “I heard that
he was in Goldsboro.”
Q. What does the reference Dix Hill mean? A. That’s
a mental hospital for white people?
Q. Can you recall any other telephone calls that you
had? A. Well, I have head many more since that time.
Q. How frequently were those telephone calls? A. Well,
the first two weeks they would maybe be every 25 minutes,
through the night maybe a couple of hours; we left the
telephone receiver off the hook so that it wouldn’t bother
us so much.
Q. And over what period of time did those telephone
— 120-
call continue? A. They continued for about two weeks,
continued until we called the president of the Telephone
Company so he could try to catch whoever it was that was
calling, and they did stop off then.
Q. Now, do you recall around the middle of June any
unusual thing being brought in the vicinity of your hoouse?
A. Well, a cross was burned in the vicinity of my house
but I just don’t know what date it was, but a cross was
burned there one night, and it was after 12:00 o’clock at
night.
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
566a
Q. Did you see the cross yourself? A. I saw it the
next morning.
Q. Did you see it while it was burning? A. No.
Q. Where was the cross located with reference to your
house? A. Eight at my driveway, beside the driveway.
Q. I show you now a clipping from the Franklin Times
of Louisburg, dated August 17, 1965, describing an inves
tigation of the occurrence by Sheriff Joseph W. Champion,
and ask you—
Mr. Yarborough: —Objection. The clipping speaks
for itself.
Q. —if this doesn’t describe the facts and tell of the
fact that a cross was burned in the vicinity of your house!
— 121—
A. That’s right.
Mr. Schwelb: I offer in evidence as a part of the
Eeverend Coppedge deposition this clipping from the
Franklin Times of 8/17/65 as Government Exhibit
No. 1.
Q. Do you know a man by the name of Whit Hayes? A.
Yes, he is a farmer who lives about 2 miles from our home.
Q. Of what race is he? A. He is a white man.
Q. Did you have any conversation or did you have occa
sion to talk with him at any time about the question of
having your child transferred to a formerly all white
school? A. Yes.
Q. What was that conversation? A. He came to my
home and told me that the white people in the community
were mad at me because I had requested that my child be
allowed to attend the Edward Best High School, and I
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
567a
told him I thought it was within the hounds of the law
and that I was sorry they were mad, and he said they were
going to stop helping me. Some of my neighbors had lent
me money, helping me in that way, and he said that they
told him that they were going to stop helping me.
Q. Is Mr. Hayes a friend of yours? A. Yes, I think
he is.
— 122—
Q. Did you believe what he told you? A. Yes, I believed
him.
Q. Reverend Coppedge, I now show you some items
which I have here in this envelope and I now ask you if
you have ever before seen anything like these items or
objects in this envelope? A. Yes, I have seen quite a few
of those in our driveway.
Mr. Schwelb: Let the record show that I have just
taken from an envelope, which was in our files, some
tacks with heads of the tacks being about 3/4ths of
an inch in diameter and which tacks have points
approximately three-quarters of an inch in length,
the envelope containing these tacks, which tacks
have just been shown to the witness, is marked
“Coppedge nails taken by .......... on March 13th,
1966.” These tacks are in a Department of Justice
Official Business Air Mail envelope.
Q. Where did you say you had seen tacks like those I
have just shown you? A. In my driveway.
Q. How often have you found them there? A. I have
found them there on about a dozen different nights and
I found some there one day.
Q. Have you had any difficulties or trouble in eonnec-
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
568a
tion with such tacks? A. Yes, I have had two or three
-1 2 3 -
flat tires from such nails.
Q. Now I want to ask you about another matter, Rever
end Coppedge. Have you had occasion recently to go to
Washington, D. C. to see some of the HEW officials? A.
Well, last October I went there.
Q. Tell us about that. A. Well, a lady from Washing
ton, a Mrs. McClure, called me and asked me could I get
to Washington, said some of the officials of the Franklin
County Board of Education, along with their attorney,
wanted to go there and explain this matter, and asked
could I get there, and I told her I would come.
Q. When you refer to the attorney for the Board yon
are referring to Mr. Yarborough who is sitting here in
this room now? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Mr. F. E. Yarborough, Attorney at Law, from Louis-
burg, North Carolina? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you at that time trying to resolve your differ
ences in as friendly way as possible? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And were they also trying to do that? A. Well,
— 124—
they didn’t seem to want to change what they had already
said.
Q. They were polite to you? A. Yes, they were polite
to me.
Q. Now, awhile ago you were talking about telephone
calls; do you have any recollection of any telephone calls
after you returned? A. Yes.
Q. What was the nature of that telephone call? A. Well,
the call that was made to me, they just didn’t say any
thing, were just breathing in, but my wife the next day,
after we had come home from Washington, said someone
Deposition of Rev. Lutl%er Coppedge
569a
called and said that to tell me, Who did I want to preach
my own funeral, and added a cuss word.
Q. Did you hear that telephone call made, yourself? A.
No, I didn’t hear that.
Q. Who told you about that? A. My wife.
Q. And did you believe what she told you about it? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Now, approximately when did the various incidents
that you have related happen, were they in 1965 or 1966,
the ones that you have talked about so far? A. Most of
them happened in 1965.
—125—
Q. You have testified that you are a farmer, have you
not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, do you have a tractor? A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you remember any difficulty that you had with
your tractor along about March of this year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was that? A. Someone put some sugar in
the gas tank of my tractor.
Q. Do you remember about when that was? A. Yes,
it was the second Saturday in May.
Q. It was the second Saturday in May? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How do you know that someone put sugar in the gas
tank of your tractor? Tell us about that. A. Well, I took
the tractor to the shop to have some -welding done on it
on that Thursday and he told me that I could get it back
on Friday. My son drove the tractor up there Thursday
and without any trouble, but when we got ready to bring
it away from there the motor would only run for about
a minute or two and then it would cut off. I didn’t know
what was wrong with it, so I took it to the factory tractor
place in Louisburg and had a gasket put on it and it still
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
570a
—126—
wouldn’t run and I kept on taking off parts and looking
for the trouble, looked in the gas line at the gas tank and
sugar came out of it.
Q. Eeverend Coppedge, have you had occasion to notice
any unusual cars in the vicinity of your home? A. Well,
I have seen at least two or three cars that I don’t know.
Q. What were those cars doing? A. One of them started
up in my driveway which I met; I had started out of the
yard and he backed back and he went on up the road
and I followed him until he turned off. My wife said the
car came back shortly after I left.
Q. Approximately when was that? A. That was ap
proximately in October; we were picking cotton at that
time.
Q. Eeverend Coppedge, do you know the Eeverend Plum
mer Alston? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know what church he used to preach at? A.
Yes, the Eedbud Church.
Q. Do you know what happened to that church? A. It
was bombed.
Q. Are you familiar with or related to anybody to do
with that church? A. His wife is my niece.
—127—
Q. The Eeverend Alston’s wife is your niece? A. The
owner of the church, his wife is my niece, and the owner’s
name is Ernestine Thomas.
Q. Now, Eeverend Coppedge, besides trying to desegre
gate the schools have you been interested in encouraging
Negroes to register to vote? A . Yes, I have.
Q. In connection with that have you had any unusual
incident in the recent past involving your efforts to get
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
571a
Negroes to register to vote? Tell us about that, if so. A.
Well, I took five persons to the place to register.
Q. Were they permitted to register ? A. They were per
mitted to register.
Q. When was that? A. That was the first Saturday in
May.
Q. What unusual thing took place in connection with
that trip? If anything. A. Well, I had an envelope on
the front seat of my car and when the ladies who were
in the car got out the envelope fell or dropped out and
one of the ladies asked me was the envelope mine and I
said Yes, and I asked her to put it back in the car and
— 128—
I saw her place it back in the car, but someone took the
envelope out and put it in the fork of a tree, near where
my car was parked, and marked three K’s where the en
velope was. I didn’t see the envelope until I returned and
brought five more persons there an hour later.
Q. Where was it that you originally left the envelope?
A. In the front seat of my car.
Q. And where did you next see it? A. In the fork of a
tree close by.
Q. And where it was then someone had put three K’s?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Reverend Coppedge, prior to your being engaged in
trying to desegregate the Franklin County schools were
you subjected to any kind of intimidation at all before you
became involved in desegregation? A. No, sir.
Q. Was it your belief that the reason these various
incidents have happened, with the exception of the one
with the three K’s, was it your belief that the reason
these incidents have happened—
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
572a
Q. Do you have reason to believe that the reason they
happened was because of your involvement in desegrega
tion!
-129-
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
A. I think it was because I requested the reassignment of
my child to the all white school.
Q. Now, when you requested the reassignment for your
child what school was it that you asked that he be assigned
to? A. The Edward Best High School.
Q. Is it your personal preference, is your personal
preference for the freedom of choice plan or for the so-
called zoning plan, under the now existing situation in
Franklin County?
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
A. Well, I would like to see some plan so that the parents
would not have to be responsible for the reassignments to
the schools. I think that is why people started intimida
tion against us was because we took that stand.
Q. Now, Reverend Coppedge, during the last couple of
days or so you have had several conversations with me,
have you not? A. Yes, I have.
Q. Have I advised you about the Court Order which
Judge Butler signed yesterday? A. No, I don’t Believe
you told me about that.
Q. Did I tell you something about it when I talked to
you this morning? A. Yes, you did.
-13d'
Q. Did I tell you, Reverend Coppedge, whether or not
Judge Butler wanted everybody to cooperate during the
new freedom of choice period? A. Yes, you said that h
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
573a
wanted the parents, the School Board and the children to
cooperate, wanted all of ns to cooperate.
Q. White and Negro? A. That’s right.
Q. Now, you have testified that you would prefer a plan
other than one which places the burden on the parents;
in spite of that are you prepared to do your best to make
the freedom of choice plan work? A. Yes, sir, I will do
my best.
Q. When you get your application form where do you
propose to apply for your son? A. For the Edward Best
High School.
Q. Will you do everything that you can to comply with
the wishes expressed by Judge Butler in this case? A.
Yes, sir, I will.
Q. Now, arrangements are contemplated whereby the
Board will invite certain leading members of the Negro
community to meet with them to discuss the way this thing
is going to be operated; will you make yourself available
for such a meeting? A. Yes, sir.
—131—
Q. Despite the fact that in this lawsuit you sued them
you are now prepared to cooperate with the School Board
in every way that is reasonable? A. In every way that
is reasonable, yes, sir.
Q. Do you have any personal ill feeling toward them?
A. No, sir.
Direct Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Reverend Coppedge how long have you been working
actively with the NAACP in Franklin County? A. About
three or four years. I haven’t done much active work.
Q. Had you prior to 1965 been involved in any effort by
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
574a
the NAACP to integrate the schools of Franklin County?
A. No, sir, I hadn’t.
Q. Were you involved in such in 1964? A. No, sir.
Q. Were yon so involved in 1965? A. Yes, I was.
Q. Have you had occasion to go around and talk to
several Negro parents in Franklin County about having
their children reassigned to predominantly white schools!
A. Well, no, I haven’t encouraged that. I want them to
make their own choice.
Q. Have you talked with any Negro parents to determine
—132-
what their opinions were about sending their children to
integrated schools? A. Yes, I have done that.
Q. Have you talked to several Negro parents with refer
ence to that? A. Yes, I have done that.
Q. Throughout Franklin County? A. Yes, in several
places.
Q. Have you attended several meetings at which trans
fers by Negro parents of various schools were discussed!
A. Yes, I have attended some, not too many, but I have
attended a few meetings.
Q. Do you think that because of your contacts with the
Negroes in Franklin County and your communications with
them this would enable you to express an opinion upon
their exercising choice under the freedom of choice plan?
Objection, by Tucker, To the form.
A. I think so.
Q. Do you have an opinion as to why the freedom of
choice plan has not been working in Franklin County?
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
Objection, by Mr. Tucker, To the form.
575a
A. Most parents were afraid.
Q. Do yon have an opinion about that? A. Yes, I have
—133—
an opinion, I think I have an opinion.
Q. What is your opinion? A. I think most parents are
afraid to let their children go to white schools because
they don’t want to go through what some of us have had
to go through.
Q. Have you had occasion or a chance to visit very many
of the schools of Franklin County? A. Yes, I have visited
several.
Q. Have you visited any white schools? A. Yes, one.
Q. Which one was that? A. The Louisburg High School.
Q. Did you get a chance to see the equipment there in
the Louisburg High School class rooms? A. No. I just
went to the baccalaureate sermon there at the Louisburg
High School.
Q. Was that this year? A. This year, yes.
Q. Have you attended any functions or activities at any
Negro schools? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you noticed any integrated affairs among the
students in any Negro school? A. No, sir.
—134—
Q. Do you know of any activities in which Negro and
white students have participated in any Negro schools?
A. No, sir.
Q. Your son rode a bus to school, did he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. To Perry’s School? A. That’s right.
Q- Does the Edward Best school bus run by your house?
A. Yes, it does.
Q- Negroes ride the Negro bus to Perry’s School? A.
Yes.
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
576a
Q. And white students ride the bus to the Edward Best
school! A. That’s right.
Q. And both run right by your house? A. That’s right,
Q. Reverend Coppedge, when you went to Washington
along with the officials of the Franklin County School
Board to discuss the Board’s school plan for 1965-66, did
you have any understanding at that time as to whether
the students from the lateral transfer places would be
permitted to transfer? A. Well, I thought they were going
to permit them to be transferred.
Q. Was that your understanding in Washington, that
— 135-
they would be permitted to transfer ? A. That’s right; I
thought that was what the Board members who were there
said they were going back and try all that they could to
get them to be transferred.
Q. Did you have a subsequent meeting with the Board
in reference to lateral transfers? A. Yes.
Q. Were you at any time after your return advised that
efforts would be made for the lateral transferees to trans
fer? A. We had a meeting but the Board members who
were there said they would have to see the other members
of the Board, said all members were not there, and I think
I received a letter from the Superintendent stating that
they had not changed; I think that is right.
Q. That they would again be assigned to the same pre
dominantly Negro schools? A. Yes, sir.
Cross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Reverend Coppedge, at that meeting in Washington
you were there and the Reverend Dunston was there? ̂
Yes, sir.
Q. And Mr. Warren Smith, Superintendent of Schools,
was there? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
577a
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
—136—
Q. And I was there as Board attorney? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Mr. Clint Fuller was there, was he? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And he was the only Board member there, wasn’t he?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you know that there are five members of the
Board, don’t you? A. That’s right.
Q. And you say that you gained the impression from
those who were there that they would try to get the other
members of the Board to act favorably on your request?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And there was only one Board member there? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And he said then, did he not, that he could not speak
for the other members of the Board? A. That’s what he
said.
Q. And you understood that he couldn’t obligate the
other members of the Board who were not present, didn’t
yon? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And attending the meetings in Washington were Mr.
Mordecai Johnson, Mrs. McClure, and possibly someone
—137—
else? A. I think that is right; I think that was all.
Q. Now, about the busses passing your house, that Mr.
Chambers was asking you about as to whether the children
attending a certain school rode that bus, didn’t he ask you
about that? A. Yes, sir.
Q- All the children living in that vicinity, including your
own, who were attending Perry’s school rode the bus that
went to Perry’s school, and all that were attending school
at the Edward Best school rode the bus that went to the
Edward Best school, didn’t they? A. Yes, sir.
578a
Q. So that none of the children, except those that went
to the school on that school’s bus, rode that bus, isn’t that
correct? A. That’s my understanding.
Q. Now, you say that you attended the baccalaureate
sermon in late May or early June of this year at the Louis-
burg school? A. Yes, sir.
Q. At which Jerome Cheek was graduating? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And when you went into that auditorium you went to
any seat that you wanted to sit in, did you not? A. Yes,
— 138-
Q. You sat in any seat that you chose to that was vacant!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And there were colored people attending that sermoi
besides you? A. Yes.
Q. Did you see about ten or eleven in that auditoriu®
sitting together, colored people? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were they of one family? A. That wTas Mr. Cheek
and his family and friends.
Q. They went there together and nobody told them where
they could sit, did they? A. No, sir.
Q. And so far as you know they chose to sit together!
A. Yes.
Q. Is that right? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You wouldn’t undertake to say that that was a segre
gated audience, would you?
Objection, by Mr. Chambers.
Deposition of Rev. Lutlier Coppedge
A. No.
Q. You answered “No”, did you? A. That’s right.
— 139"
Q. There were marshalls to escort you? A. Yes, sir.
579a
Q. And you heard the Reverend Mr. Tomlinson preach
and then you left? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He is a Baptist preacher there in Louisburg? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And Jerome Cheek graduated in the class along with
the others? A. Yes.
Q. Right close to the white students? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, Reverend Coppedge, you testified that you
talked with some of the Negro parents in Franklin County;
just who did you talk to? A. I talked to Mrs. Irene Ar
rington, and she said she was afraid, and I think I talked
to George Floyd.
Q. Mrs. Arrington has been a witness here? A. Yes.
Q. And George Floyd has been a witness here? A. I
don’t know about that.
Q. You don’t remember the names of any others that
you talked to? A. Well, I talked to Mr. and Mrs. Satter-
wkite and they said they were afraid.
—140—,
Q. Which Satterwhite? A. Henry; his wife’s name is
Annie.
Q- Is she a large lady from Bunn, a heavy set person?
A. Yes, that’s right.
Q. Do you know that her son attended the Bunn school
this past school year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Under the freedom of choice and in one of those
grades this year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you know Alcer Mae Satterwhite? A. Yes,
sir.
Q- You know that she attended Bunn school also, don’t
you! A. Yes, sir.
Q- She was in one of the free choice grades? A. Yes,
sir.
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
580a
Q. And they graduated at Bunn at the Bunn school?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever attended any meeting of the NAACP
at Rowland’s Chapel! A. Yes, I have.
Q. Do you know the Reverend B. B. Felder? A. Yes,
sir, I know him.
—141—
Q. Where does he live! A. He lives in Dunn, North
Carolina.
Q. In Harnett County! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever attend a meeting in Rowland’s Chapel,
or at any other place, where the members of the NAACP
were present, where they were advised not to exercise the
freedom of choice this past April! A. No, sir; I don’t
think anyone told anybody not to exercise it.
Q. Did you attend a meeting anywhere where anyone was
told to choose, where they were told to choose predomi
nantly colored schools! A. No. I think everybody has to
make his own choice.
Q. You made your own choice? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the Board granted your choice? A. That’s right.
Q. Now, the school year of 1965-66, last year your son
was to be in what, the 10th grade? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that was not a free choice grade? A. No, that
was a lateral transfer grade.
Q. And the Board of Education did exactly what it told
you it was going to do at that time, namely, have four free
—142-
choice grades in 1965-66 and all grades free choice in 1966-
67 school year, didn’t they? A. That’s right, they told me
afterward.
Q. They told you some time after school opened in Sep-
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
581a
tember of 1965, that is the time the Board told you that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this year, 1966-67 you know that the Board has
awarded free choice in all grades in all schools for the com
ing year? A. That’s right.
Q. And you got a notice stating that? A. Yes, our hoy
will be in the 11th grade.
Q. And you exercised his free choice for him? A. Yes,
sir, but I didn’t choose it as freely as I did before. I didn’t
make a free choice. I am afraid.
Q. That was not because of anything that the Board has
done, was it? A. Not that the Board has done other than
the Board rejected him.
Q. You exercised free choice, didn’t you? A. Yes, it was
a free choice.
Q. Nobody compelled you to make that choice, no threats
or intimidation was brought to bear upon you to make
—143—
you ask that he be allowed to go to the Edward Best High
School, did they ? A. No, nobody didn’t make me ask for it.
Q. You wanted your son to go to the Edward Best
school? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you put it down on the form and mailed it back
and you got a notice within a few days that he was as
signed to the Edward Best school? A. Yes, sir.
Q- And he brough his report card home? A. That’s
right. I was a little afraid, but did it.
Q- Y o u w e re a lit t le a fr a id , b u t y o u s t i ll a sk e d f o r it ?
Y . T h at’ s r ig h t.
Q. And you got it? A. Yes, sir.
Q- N ow , y o u s a y th a t th e se th in g s h a v e h a p p e n e d to y o u ,
tke telephone c a lls a n d o th e r th in g s , a n d th a t th e y h a p p e n e d
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
582a
in the summer of 1965 after your name had appeared in
the newspaper? A. Yes.
Q. But still you stuck right to it and said that you wanted
him to go to the Edward Best school in 1965-66 school year?
A. I stuck to it, yes.
—144—
Q. What’s that? A. I stuck to it yes, in a fashion.
Q. You brought this suit to do it, didn’t you? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And you stated that you brought this suit to get him
in there, to get him in that school and with Mr. Chambers
and others as your lawyer or lawyers ? A. That’s right.
Q. And you went to court two or three times about it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Appeared in court? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that was all done after some of these things had
happened to you ? A. Yes.
Q. You went to the meeting at the courthouse at Louis-
burg when Mr. Fink was there ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You went, you and others, to the post office first and
there wasn’t room enough for you there so you went to the
courthouse? A. I don’t think we tried to get into the post
office.
Q. Didn’t you go to the post office first? A. We met but
we didn’t go inside.
—145—
Q. After meeting there you did go to the courthouse of
Franklin County where I made arrangements for the meet
ing, turned on the lights, and tried to make a place for you
all to meet? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And even at that time you still stuck to your boy go
ing- to the Edward Best High School for that year? A.
Yes, sir.
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
583a
Q. And yon are the one, aren’t you, that passed the word
around to the other parents of the people in the same law
suit with you, took notice to them to come to the meet
ing! A. Yes, sir, I took the word to some of them.
Q. You told several people that the meeting was to be in
the Louisburg courthouse courtroom the nest morning,
didn’t you? A. I notified about two or three parents and
Mr. Gill notified some. Three of us made the notifications.
Q. Mr. Otis? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that year he already had one child in the Louis
burg schol, in one of those first selected grades of free
choice? A. That’s right.
—146—
Q. And you know that for the coming year he has got all
of his children in the Louisburg school ? A. I understand
he has.
Q. Now, about your tractor, which you say you drove up
to a shop; whose shop was that? A. Mr. Melvin Inscoe’s.
Q. That is a garage, a repair place? A. Yes, he does all
kinds of repairs.
Q. And when you started driving it away you noticed
trouble with it? A. That’s right.
Q. And you think that something could have happened
to it there at that shop? A. I think so.
Q. Because your boy drove it up there all right? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. What kind of repair did he do on it? A. He welded
a place on the steering wheel.
Q. He did some welding work on it? A. Yes, sir.
Q- And it continued then to give you trouble when you
started to drive it away? A. That’s right.
Q- The tractor gave you trouble and you say that there
—147—
was sugar in the gas line or in the gas tank? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
584a
Q. Mr. Inscoe is a friend of yours, isn’t he ? A. Yes, sir,
I think he is.
Q. He has done work for you before? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he has done work for you since then? A. No,
sir, I haven’t had any to do.
Q. You haven’t needed any work done? A. No.
Q. Mr. Melvin Inscoe is a white man? A. Yes, sir.
Q. About how far is his shop from your place? A. His
shop is about seven miles from my place.
Q. You say that you are a member of the NAACP; are
you a member of the civil rights organization known as
the Leadership Conference? A. No, sir.
Q. Are you a member of the Congress for Racial Equal
ity? A. No, sir.
Q. Are you a member of any of the other ones? A. No,
sir.
Q. Now, you say a car pulled into your driveway and
you came out your driveway and the car backed out? A.
Yes, sir.
— 148—
Q. Who was driving that car? A. I don’t know the per
son, but I did take all his license number and I reported
it to the FBI.
Q. Yon reported it to the FBI? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you investigate it yourself as to who the li
cense number showed it was? A. Well, the license num
ber was given to the Sheriff.
Q. But did you investigate it yourself? A. No.
Q. Did you write or telephone to the Motor Vehicles De
partment and find out yourself who the name of the party
was, through the license number? A. No, sir.
Q. You didn’t ever get the name? A. The FBI got the
name but they didn’t tell me anything.
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
585a
Q. But you, yourself, did not telephone or write to the
Motor Vehicles Department? A. I came up here.
Q. Did they tell you anything about it at the Motor Ve
hicles Department? A. I didn’t ask the Motor Vehicles
Department.
Q. You didn’t ask about it yourself? A. No, sir.
—149—
Q. But it was turned over to the FBI and they investi
gated it, as far as you know? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the Sheriff investigated it, as far as you know?
A. That’s right.
Q. So both of them attempted to cooperate with you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And so far as you know, the FBI has not yet been
able to indict anybody? A. No, sir.
Q. Nor has the Sheriff? A. No, sir.
Q. Had you ever seen the driver of that car before?
A. No, sir, I had not; if I had I didn’t know him.
Q. You said that the owner of the Redbud Church was
Ernestine Thomas, is that a man or a woman? A. A man.
Q. Named “Ernestine” ? A. That’s right.
Q. That congregation was not meeting in a conventional
church building there but was meeting in a building that
was an old store building, using it as a church? A. Well,
it was small.
Q. But, I am asking you, wasn’t it a building that had
been used as a store before? A. I think so.
—150—
Q- Church services were being held in that building which
had formerly been used as a store and was not built as a
church? A. I didn’t know the building when it was used
for a store.
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
586a
Q. Wasn’t there another church organization there before
that was using that church for religious services? A. Yes.
Q. What happened to that earlier organization? A. They
moved to Rocky Mount, North Carolina.
Q. Now, Reverend Coppedge, you received and filled out
a form for the lateral transfer in the 1965-66 school year,
last year, and stated on the form that the reason you were
requesting transfer was that you wanted your boy to trans
fer from Perry’s school to the Edward Best school because
it was nearer your home, the Edward Best school? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Reverend Coppedge, do you remember meeting with
the Board of Education on one occasion when they met
in my office? A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Did you not state then that the course of study was
not the reason you wanted the transfer made? A. I said
—151—
that was not my main reason; that’s what I said.
Q. And you say now that the course of study was not the
reason you wanted it? A. I said it was not my main rea
son.
Q. I ask you if your boy hasn’t himself said that he wants
to be an architect, that he hopes to be an architect? A.
Well, he wants to study that subject, but he really doesn’t
know what he wants to do.
Q. Hasn’t he expressed a preference for the study of
architecture, saying that that’s what he wants to study
when he gets out of high school and into college? A. Yes,
he has spoken of that.
Q. Now, as to land cultivation, does your family culti
vate the crop there on your place or do you rent it or are
you there as a tenant? A. I cultivate it myself.
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
587a
Q. Aren’t you, yourself, attending school or college? A.
Yes, I am attending Shaw University.
Q. What course or courses are you taking there? A.
Am taking courses in the religious field, trying to improve
my skill.
Q. You live on the road between the Peace Memorial
Church and Mr. John Wilbur Gardner’s place? A. That’s
—1 5 2 -
right.
Q. Is Mr. Gardner a white man? A. Yes, he is.
Q. You and Mr. Gardner have always gotten along fine
together, haven’t you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And I believe you stated that your white neighbors
have been kind to you; they have lent you money when
you needed it for your crops and other things? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Tell me, please, if you can, the name of a single one
of them that used to lend you money that has stopped lend
ing you money now. A. Well, it has been a few years since
they lent me money.
Q. You haven’t borrowed any money for the last few
years? A. No, sir. That’s right.
Q. Had any of them stopped lending you money about
the time you applied for your son to be assigned to the
Edward Best school ? A. I don’t know.
I haven’t had to borrow any money within the last two
or three years.
Q. Nobody has turned you down when you wanted to
—153—
borrow any money, have they, since you applied for the
transfer of your son to the Edward Best High School?
A. No, sir.
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
588a
Q. Have you been borrowing money, do you belong to
any production credit association? A. Yes, sir, the Pro
duction Credit Association.
Q. And this year you have been accommodated there
just as you were last year, in exactly the same way! A.
That’s right.
Q. You don’t borrow from the banks in Louisburg, do
you? A. No, sir.
Q. The attitude of Mr. John Wilbur Gardner towards you
has not changed, has it? A. No, sir.
Q. You keep right on borrowing things from him, do you!
A. Well, I haven’t been borrowing anything from him
lately, but our relationship is all right.
Q. You are neighborly? A. That’s right.
Q. You live at the same place your father bought, do you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it was bought from Mr. Tucker, I believe? A.
That’s right.
—154—
Q. And the place was purchased on credit extending over
a period of years? A. That’s right.
Q. And the relationship with Air. Tucker has been good?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Neighborly? A. Yes.
Redirect Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Eeverend Coppedge, do you know a man by the name
of Beatis (?) May? A. Well, I haven’t ever had too many
dealings with him.
Q. Has there been any sort of contact between any mem
ber of your family and him? A. Well, my wife had been
going to a neighbor’s house visiting and in going there she
would go on a path through his pasture and he had never
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
589a
objected to her coming through there before, not until this
came up, but he has told her not to come through there
anymore.
Q. Did you hear him tell her that? A. No, sir, I didn’t
hear him tell her that.
Recross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Where does that Mr. May live? A. There is one
house between ours and his.
— 155—
Q. Whose house is that? A. Mr. Bowden’s.
Q. Does he farm? A. Yes, he farms.
Q. His objection was to driving a car or walking through
his pasture, was it? A. His objection was to walking
through his pasture.
Q. Doesn’t he have cows in there, in that pasture? A.
Yes, he does.
Q. And you say that he told your wife that he doesn’t
want her to pass through there on that path anymore?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Isn’t there a gate at each end of that pasture? A.
I think so.
Q. And to go through that pasture you have to open
those two gates? A. That’s right.
Mr. Schwelb: That’s all, and you are excused,
Beverend Coppedge.
(Witness Excused.)
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge
590a
Deposition of Spencer McKinley Massenburg
- 2-
# # # # #
Spencer McK inley Massenburg being first duly sworn,
was examined and testified as follows:
Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Would yon state your name and your age and your
address for the record, please, sir? A. Spencer McKinley
Massenburg.
Q. And your race and your age and address. A. Col
ored, 68, and my address is Route 3, Box 303A, Louisburg.
— 3—
Q. Are you a white man, or Negro? A. Reverend Mas
senburg, Negro.
Q. Now, what is your occupation, sir? A. We have—I
live on a farm. I am a minister. I live on a farm, been
living there all my life.
Q. Are you a member of the NAACP? A. Yes, I’ve
been a member.
Q. How many children do you have, Rev. Massenburg!
A. I have ten children.
Q. How many of school age? A. All of them are school
age. Part of them finished college. Others are in college or
ready to go to college, except one.
Q. The ones that are in school now, have been in school
the past two years, what school have they attended? A.
Sir?
Q. What school have your children attended? A. Per
ry’s High School.
Q. Rev. Massenburg, at Perry’s High School are the
teachers -white or Negro? A. Colored.
Q. And the students? A. Colored.
591a
Q. Now, I ask you whether you recall an unusual inci
dent that happened in the vicinity of your home in Febru-
—4—
ary 1965? A. Well, we were in bed and I heard a noise,
but I didn’t know just what it was. I heard an awful noise,
unusual noise, but I thought maybe it was a car or some
body passing on the road or something. And I heard—
sounded like some shooting but I thought maybe it was a
car, maybe, backfiring, because I live near the road. But
we got up and went around the house and didn’t see nothing.
Aid I heard dogs barking. I heard a dog or somebody,
looked like, run from the house but I couldn’t say it was
the dog or a human being. I heard something running,
sounded like, from the house and the dog, appeared like,
running away from the house, a noise down the road. We
didn’t see nothing, and listened around. We didn’t see noth
ing happen and listened and thought maybe—we kind of
thought what it was. Next morning—but we didn’t know—
next morning my boy got up and came out of his room, and
the window was broke out. And he said, “What is it?”
What happened awoke us but not boys like that. I looked
around and that is what that noise was, and I heard a
noise in there, and we looked down and glass was all across
the floor. And we discovered a rock right down there. I
said, “Don’t pick it up. Don’t pick it up.” And I said,
“We’ll just call the law.” And we found a rock down there
— 5 —
just under the window. So I turned the whole matter over
to the sheriff.
Q. Was your window broke? A. Yes, sir, tore all to
pieces.
Q. Did you have to replace the window? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you find anything unusual about that time? A.
Deposition of Spencer McKinley Massenburg
592a
Deposition of Spencer McKinley Massenburg
No, I didn’t find anything unusual but that rock. I don’t
know whether that was the only rock or not. There was a
hole in the glass, the whole glass tore all to pieces. The
glass was as big as this table.
Q. I ’d like to show you a note and an envelope and ask
you if you have ever seen these before? A. Yes, sir, I
have seen this. This was in my mail box on the following
Monday.
Q. On the Monday after the rock was thrown? A. Yes,
sir.
Mr. Schwelb: I ’d like to introduce the letter and
the envelope as Exhibits 1 and 2.
Mr. Yarborough: Yes, sir.
Mr. Schwelb: Would the reporter please mark the
letter or the note as Exhibit 1 and the envelope as
Exhibit 2 to this deposition.
(Marked for identification)
— 6-
Mr. Schwelb: For the record, to simplify things,
I would like to read this note into the deposition. It
reads: “You did not do such a good thing trying to
start a march you can not live long like this. This
may be your ticket to hell.” On the other side of the
page it says: “ To Eev. Massenberg,” which is mis
spelled. There is a heart with a cross on the heart
and in the heart it says: “Love always.”
Mr. Yarborough: Well, we object for the record.
You are identifying it. It speaks for itself. The pic
ture and writing is all right.
Mr. Schwelb: There is a crude picture of some
kind, the words “Believe this” and the words “Boute
593a
3, Louisburg” under the picture, and “Route 4, hell,”
to the right of the picture; below the word “hell” it
says, “You ask me to return paper, Joe W. Cham
pion.”
Q. (Mr. Schwelb) Now, when you first saw that note,
Rev. Massenburg, were the words “you ask me to return
paper” written on this! A. No.
Q. Did you give it to the sheriff? A. Yes, I give it to
Mm that night.
Q. Did he return the note to you? A. Yes, later on. It’s
—7—
on there when it was returned.
Q. Remailed to you in this envelope in November 1965?
A. Yes. He kept it for me.
Q. Now, you say the sheriff came to investigate the
matter? A. Yes, sir.
Q. As far as you know has anybody been arrested or
prosecuted for this? A. I haven’t heard.
Q. Now, do a lot of Negroes in your area, to your knowl
edge, know about this incident? A. Oh, yes. I live right
there. Been there all my life, 68 years.
Q. Have they asked you about it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. For the record, do you have freedom of choice—
strike that. Did you receive freedom of choice forms for
your children for the year ’66 to ’67, also? A. Well, last
year we received some papers that concerned freedom of
choice.
Q. And you selected all Negro schools for each of your
children on this occasion? A. All of my children were out
of school. One was coming out. She didn’t have but just
a few days in school because she was going to graduate -when
Deposition of Spencer McKinley Massenburg
594a
we received this notice, and I thought it wouldn’t be wise
to break up two or three days, and so long as she wanted
to go with the class— she had been there twelve years—and
I said, “ Let her go on and finish.” The other boy was in
the junior class and he wanted to go hack. About the other,
it wasn’t any objection on my part to change schools or
class. Whatever it would be best was all right with me.
Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Eev. Massenburg, how long—I believe you stated to
Mr. Schwelb that you are a member of the NAACP. How
long have you been a member? A. Well, I don’t just defi
nitely remember the date and year when I joined. Many
years ago. I joined many years ago. I haven’t rejoined but
I have supported it. In other words, if I am at a place,
like a meeting, and they ask for an offering, I give an offer
ing, but I haven’t reinstated or anything of that kind.
Q. Were you a member long enough to have had ten
children? A. Yes.
Q. And in 1965 all but two had finished school? A. Yes,
sir.
—9 -
Q. And do you have any children teaching? A. Yes, sir,
Q. How many? A. I have two.
Q. One at Oethsemane? A. Yes.
Q. And one at Perry’s? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it your daughter that filled in this past year for
Charles Austin? A. Was it my daughter—
Q. Was it your daughter— somebody named Miss Mas
senburg, a young lady named Massenburg, was she your
daughter? A. Well, I have two daughters.
Deposition of Spencer McKinley Massenburg
— 8 -
595a
Q. That filled in teaching for Charles Austin! A. No,
that was my step-daughter— daughter-in-law, my son’s
wife. No, that wasn’t my daughter.
Q. I didn’t know. I asked because I don’t know all of
your children. So, Reverend, you—this past school year,
1965-1966, one of your son’s was at Perry’s teaching!
A. Yes.
Q. And that was the same school you sent your boy to,
— 10—
the youngest child ? A. Yes.
Q. And the other son is teaching at Gethsemane ? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Both of those in the Franklin County School unit!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Mr. Smith is the superintendent! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And your daughter-in-law was a substitute teacher!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. This past year, and she taught almost the whole year!
A. Well, most of the time. I didn’t keep up with it.
Q. When Charles Austin went to work for the State!
A. She was down there a good while. She was there a good
little while.
Q. Do the two boys that teach live with you! A. They
have their own home.
Q. As far as you know the both of them have signed a
contract to teach for the coming year! A. As far as I
know.
Q- You haven’t heard them say they were dissatisfied!
A. I didn’t—
Q. So far as you know they like their work? A. So far
as I know, yes, sir.
— 11—
Q- Been teaching—both of them—a number of years?
Deposition of Spencer McKinley Massenburg
596a
A. Yes. My son had—he done some substitute work, but
he hadn’t been teaching as long as the older one.
Q. Both of them have been teaching? A. The other boy
hasn’t been teaching as long as the one at Perry’s.
Q. Reverend, you say in February 1965, last February
a year ago, this rock and note came in? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you say that something sounded like shooting
going down the road? A. Well, the noise would seem to
be going that way.
Q. Sounded like shots? A. Yes, sir, and the dog went—
it went out and was looking and barking that way. In other
words, whatever the noise was, he got after it.
Q. Sounded like somebody shooting a pistol or gun!
A. Sounded like—there I can’t say. I didn’t see nobody
shooting but it sounded like shooting.
Q. And the next morning your little boy came out and told
you it was a rock? A. He was the first one. It shattered
the window, tore it all to pieces.
Q. Was he in the room? A. He was in the room oppo-
- 12-
site.
Q. Nobody was in this room? A. Nobody was sleeping
in there. Nobody was in the room. The glass was thrown
clean back to my boy’s room. I mean spilled on the floor.
Q. But did it go across the room into his room? A. Go
clean across the floor, clean across the house.
Q. Hid it wake him up? A. No, it didn’t wake him np,
but we were awake.
Q. He didn’t know it? A. No, sir.
Q. He wasn’t hurt as far you know? A. No, he w a s n ’t
hurt as far as I know.
Q. Then several days later you found the note in the mail
box? A. Yes, on the following Monday.
Deposition of Spencer McKinley Massenburg
597a
Q, That was what—several days later! A. Yes, sir. I
found the note in the mail box with my mail.
Q. Now, Reverend, now, your counsel introduced an en
velope. The note was not in that envelope when it was
found, was it! A. No, it wasn’t in there.
Q. You don’t say—Joe Champion, you know him! A.
Yes.
—13—
Q. The envelope was from him! A. Yes, sir, from Mr.
Champion as far as I know. His name was on it.
Q. And so the envelope—I wanted to clarify for the rec
ord. The envelope was not in your mail box that first day!
A. No, the note was there. No, this writing here was in
with the mail. I happened to take some papers and other
mail that come out and it was with it.
Q. Down in there! A. Kind of folded up.
Q. With the other mail! A. With the other mail, but
who put it there I don’t know.
Q. Yes, sir. So you delivered it to Sheriff Champion and
he investigated it! A. Yes, sir, as far as I know.
Q. And then you told him several months later, in No
vember, you wanted the note back! A. I asked him when
I gave it to him, I wanted him to give it back to me, even
if he made the investigation.
Q. And he did mail it back to you in November! A.
- 1 4 -
Yes, sir.
Q. And that was the envelope! A. Yes, sir, this is the
envelope that he mailed it back to me in.
Q. Now, so far as you know there has been no arrest or
prosecution! A. No, hasn’t been any as far as I know.
Q. Were you able to give the Sheriff any name or any
suggestion as to who may have done it ! A. No more than
I have you.
Deposition of Spencer McKinley Massenburg
598a
Q. You have no idea who did it? A. No, sir, I don’t
know who did. I couldn’t think of anybody. I ’ve been liv
ing there all my life. I couldn’t think of anybody.
Q. You were not able to give the sheriff any names? A,
Certainly I wasn’t, because I didn’t see the person.
Q. He did what he could as far as you know? A. As far
as I know. I can’t say he did and I can’t say he didn’t. As
far as I know he did.
Q. Did you take the note to him in town? A. No, sir,I
called him on my phone and he came up there.
Q. Yes, sir, he came there? A. Soon that Sunday.
-1 5 -
Q. Soon the morning you called him? A. Yes, sir, he
came.
Q. Rev. Massenburg, in May of 1965 you got a freedom
of choice letter—not this past May but the year before,
1965? A. Well, I don’t know definite about that. Not is
the mail. The children received some from the school.
Q. That is what I mean. From the school people! A
They brought it. I didn’t set the date down, but I did see
something concerning it.
Q. This past year you got a notice? A. I did see some
talking about it more this past year than it had been before,
Q. You went on—one child was about to graduate— A,
Yes, in her class.
Q. In a few days, and she did graduate? A. Yes.
Q. In the same school that one of your boys taught? A
Yes, sir.
Q. The other one wanted to go back to Perry? A. If he
did want to go back.
Q. And he did go back? A. Yes.
Q. And you have a boy teaching there? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Spencer McKinley Massenburg
599a
Q. And a daughter-in-law? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, Reverend, of course, to clarify the date this rock
throwing incident took place, that was in February of 1965?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that was before any school matters had come up,
wasn’t it? A. Well, as far as I can remember it was.
Q. As far as you can remember. Well, it would have
been. If the first school letters went out in May ’65, and
this was in February, that was following of course. It was
before. Rev. Massenburg, where do you live with respect
to the County—out on Route 3, of course? A. Yes, I live
out on Route 3. I am what you call—I live about eight miles
northeast of Louisburg. Been there, living in this area all
my life.
Q. Live on what road? A. Alert Road.
Q. Is it a road from Moulton to Alert? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Near Mr. Pete Smith’s garage, in that area? A.
Yes, sir. Of his shop.
—17—
Q. Of Mr. Pete Smith’s shop? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, who is your mail carrier or was your mail car
rier in February 1965? A. Well, Mr.—fellow by the name
of Mr. Hight had been carrying the mail, but we have a
substitute and I don’t keep up with what days—
Q. Mr. High Hight was the mail carrier? A. Mr. Hight
had been carrying mail. I understand he is the regular
carrier.
Q. He works for the Post Office in Louisburg? A. This
man I know says he was Mr. Hight.
Q- I mean he is a regular mail carrier ? A. What I mean,
someone else carries sometimes besides him.
Deposition of Spencer McKinley Massenburg
— 16—
600a
Q. Do you know who is the substitute? A. No, sir, Ido
not.
Q. Mr. Hight is the regular mail carrier from the Post
Office on Route 4? A. I don’t know.
Q. Well, he’s been carrying the mail for a long timet
A. That is my understanding.
Mr. Yarborough: That is all I have.
Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Reverend, the date of this rock throwing incident
-18-
was what? A. The thirteenth.
Q. Of February? A. Yes.
Q. Nineteen what? A. ’65.
Q. ’65. All right. Now, the two sons you have teaching
in school, one is at what? A. Grethsemane.
Q. And was one at Perry’s? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know at any time whether they have been
advised that they can teach at any other school other than
a Negro school? A. Not that I know of.
Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Reverend, as far as you know, or do you know whether
they have ever applied or requested to teach in any other
school? A. Not as I know of.
Mr. Schwelb: I have nothing further.
Witness excused.
Deposition of Spencer McKinley Massenburg
601a
Exhibit 1
602a
Exhibit 2
(See Opposite) 85^
JOE W . CHAMPION
Sh er iff of Franklin C ounty
Louisburg. N. C.
MR S.P.MASSENEURO
RT # 3
LOUISBURG. N.C.
a
**' \
603a
604a
Deposition of Plummer Alston, Jr.
-19 -
P l u m m e r A l s t o n , Jr., being first duly affirmed, was ex
amined and testified as follows:
Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Would you please state your name and your age and
your address for the record? A. I am Mr. Plummer Als
ton, Jr., 45 years of age, Negro, Route 3, Box 204, Louis-
burg.
Q. What is your occupation, sir? A. Farmer, part-time
minister.
Q. How long have you lived in Franklin County? A. I
was born in Franklin County. I have been there most of
my life in Franklin County.
Q. Do you have any children, sir? A. I have eleven. Ten,
and one adopted.
Q. How many are in school now? A. Seven.
Q. And could you tell us what school they attend, please!
A. Riverside High.
Q. Is the staff or faculty at Riverside High white or
Negro? A. Negro.
— 20—
Q. Are the students at Riverside High white or Negro!
A. Negro.
Q. I direct your attention to the Red Bud Church an
ask you if you had any relation to that church? A. I am
the pastor.
Q. Where was that church located until March 1966? A
Highway 58, near Castalia.
Q. In Franklin County? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was that church a church attended by N egroes or
white people? A. Negroes.
Q. Do you know whether anything happened to i!
church in March 1966? A. Yes, sir.
605a
Q. What happened to the church? A. On March the 5th,
1966, about five minutes past five, I came home and one of
my children come running and said “ Father, father,” said,
“Reverend Strickland called and said your church is tore
all to pieces.” So I thought it was just a joke then, and me
and my wife and my son jumped in the car and went down
there and, sure enough, it was tore all to pieces. One wall
standing there. So I came back to Reverend Strickland’s
house and called the sheriff’s department and the sheriff
— 21—
wasn’t in but the deputy was there. The deputy come out
and investigated it.
Q. As far as you know did this investigation result in
anybody being arrested or prosecuted for this act? A. No.
Q. Have you heard of churches being burned or de
stroyed in Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, or states like
that? A. I have.
Q. Have you ever heard of it happening in North Caro
lina before? A. Not at that particular time I hadn’t.
Q. Are you associated in any way with the destruction of
churches in any of these other states?
Mr. Tucker: Objection to form.
Deposition of Plummer Alston, Jr.
A. No.
Mr. Yarborough: He said no.
Mr. Schwelb: Now, I ’d like to offer in evidence
an article from the March 8,1966, issue of the Frank
lin Times, depicting the church, Red Bud Church,
after it had been destroyed. Would you please re
ceive and mark that in evidence as Government’s
Exhibit 1 to this deposition.
606a
(Marked for identification.)
- 22-
Mr. Schwelb: I have no further questions.
Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Reverend, your church was down on Highway 58, near
Red Bud Creek? A. I guess it was.
Q. And the nearest place—right near Castalia. Castalia
is in Nash County, not in Franklin County at all. The I
county line runs between your church and Franklin County!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Castalia is a town of about 500 people? A. I
guess so.
Q. How far did you live from the church? A. As near
as I can figure, I think about eighteen miles.
Q. From the church? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where do you live? A. I live a mile on the other side
of Ingleside, near the Mitchell farm.
Q. Now, Ingleside is between Louisburg and Henderson!
A. Yes, that’s right.
Q. At the fork of U.S. 401 and 49? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you live on Frank Mitchell’s farm? A. Yes, sir
—23-
Q. That is a little bit west of Ingleside? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Known as Rocky Ford Road? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What denomination is your church? A. Christ.
Q. Disciples of Christ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you live right near Corinth Church? A. Yes, sir
Q. And that is a Baptist Church? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And who called Reverend Strickland? A. Frank, b
called.
Q. By telephone? A. Yes, sir.
Q. At Reverend Strickland’s? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Plummer Alston, Jr.
607a
Q. Where does he live? A. He lives down there near
Castalia, Route 1.
Q. Lives on Route 1, near Castalia, in Nash County? A.
Yes—in Franklin County.
Q. Franklin County. Where does he preach? A. Mt.
Moriah, near Bunn.
— 24—
Q. Now, Reverend, Reverend Strickland is the pastor of
Mt. Moriah, and that is between Louisburg and Bunn on
another road? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you remember what day of the week March
5th was? A. Saturday.
Q. That was when you got word, was it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you came home about five minutes to five in the
afternoon? A. Five past five.
Q. Five past five in the afternoon? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you don’t know when or what day or what time
of day the church was destroyed? A. On Friday night.
That is the information we got after.
Q. On Friday night, and you got word of it Saturday
afternoon? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you called a sheriff and got a deputy? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And did they all come right on out there? A. Yes,
- 25-
sir.
Q. And did you meet the deputy? A. Yes, sir.
Q- And you told him all you knew about it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you stated as far as you know no one has been
Prosecuted or arrested on behalf of it? A. No, sir.
Q- H av e y o u b e e n a b le to g iv e th e s h e r if f o r d e p u t y th e
name of anybody that might be suspected of it? A. No,
sir.
Deposition of Plummer Alston, Jr.
608a
Q. And you have no idea by whom it was done or for
what reason? A. No, sir.
Q. And your children have been attending, are now and
have been attending, those in school, Riverside School! A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And they ride the school bus? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Down to the school, and you signed up for them to go
to that school? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The school year—for this past school year you got
a notice, you signed it and sent it on back? A. Yes, sir.
-2 6 -
Q. How about the previous year, did you get a notice
that year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You signed up, and the Board of Education did ex
actly what you asked them to do, did they not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, Reverend Alston, I believe members of your con
gregation, after your church was destroyed, solicited funds
to help— A. Yes, sir.
Q. Start a new one? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they solicited from both white and colored? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And both white and colored contributed? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall the names of—do you have a list of
those who contributed? A. I don’t have the list. I know
some of them.
Q. Do you know that I was one? A. Yes. sir.
Q. And those that solicited in Louisburg and other
places, as far as you know, were treated courteously a11̂
all right? A. Yes, sir.
—27-
Q. By both whites and colored? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Your church was a right new church, and just got ‘!
started? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Plummer Alston, Jr.
609a
Q. And it was not a traditional church, it still was a for
mer store or filling station? A. Yes.
Q. And you were using that as a make-shift until your
congregation could provide more adequate church facili
ties? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And your congregation, they are voluntary members,
they all joined because they wanted to? A. Yes, sir.
Q. They had their own reasons? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And so far only colored people have joined your
church? A. That’s right.
Q. Your congregation or your church rules provide for
—do you vote them in? A. No, we don’t vote them in.
Q. How do you handle it? A. The first ones join the
—2 8 -
church and make a profession of faith. We baptize them
or invite them in fellowship, according to the Bible.
Q. I mean it is up to the minister to handle that? A.
That’s right.
Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Now, Mr. Yarborough asked you if you had any idea
who did this or why it was done and you testified you did
not. Now, as a matter of fact, no white people have ever
attended services at your church, have they? A. No, sir.
Q. Since the bombing have you heard any rumors in the
Negro community as to why it was bombed?
Mr. Tucker: Objection as to the form.
Mr. Schwelb (To Witness): You can answer.
A. I hear since then that the reason our church got blown
up, that we had white people attending.
Q- (Mr. Schwelb) That isn’t true, is it? A. No, sir.
Deposition of Plummer Alston, Jr.
610a
Q. You heard the Negroes—the rumor from Negroes? A.
Yes, sir.
Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Do you know who started the rumor? A. I don’t.
- 2 9 -
Q. You accept members by profession of faith in Al
mighty God and Jesus Christ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they have to be baptized to get in? A. Yes, sir,
Q. You welcome a person of white faith if you believed
he was sincere in the profession of faith? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you would admit them as you would anyone else!
A. Yes, sir.
Witness excused.
Deposition of Plummer Alston, Jr.
Services Canceled -Staff Photo by Clint Fuller.
Franklin County Deputy Sheriff Tom Powell "is shown above
inspecting the ruins of the Red Bud Church of Christy following
whT he described as the “ dynamiting” of the building last
Friday night around 8:30 p.m. by persons yet unknown. The
32-Stnember Negro church hold services every third Sunday
and Sunday School each week, according to Rev. Plummer
. Alston, Jr., Rt. 3, Loulsburg, pastor. The structure, located
between Centerville and Castalia in Franklin County, was
completely destroyed by the blast. The building belonged
to Ernestine Thomas, Rt. 2, Spring Hope Negro. Pow^l re
ported that his department was not notified of the iiiident
until around 5 p.m. Saturday. Sheriff Joseph W. Champion
reported today that there were no new developments? in his
investigation. vr 1
THE FRANKLIN TIMES
Louisburg, N. C.
3/8/66
Page 1
)
611a
Government’s Exhibit 1
612a
M rs. Inez Davis being first duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows:
Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Would you please state your name, your race, and
your address for the record? A. Mrs. Inez Davis. My ad
dress, 1009 South Main Street, Louisburg, North Carolina,
and my—what else is it—
Q. Your race. Are you a Negro? A. Negro race.
Q. How long have you lived in Franklin County, ma’am?
A. Well, most of my life, ever since I was a child.
Q. Mrs. Davis, do you have any children? A. Any what!
Q. Do you have any children? A. I do.
Mr. Schwelb: I ’d like for you to speak a good
deal louder.
A. Yes, I have children.
By Mr. Schwelb:
Q. How many children do you have ? A. Six of my own.
Q. Do vou have any grandchildren? A. Ido.
—31—
Q. Do you have any grandchildren who have been living
with you? A. Yes, I have two.
Q. How many? A. Two grandchildren.
Q. What are their names, please? A. Cornell Davis
and Larry Davis.
Q. How long about have Cornell Davis and Larry Davis
been living with you? A. Been with me fifteen years.
Q. How old are they? A. Cornell, he will be eighteen
the sixth of September, the month after next.
Deposition of Inez Davis
-3 0 -
613a
Q. How old was Larry? A. He was sixteen in March.
Q. Have they been living with yon since Larry was a
baby? A. He was nine months old.
Q. Who was their father? A. James H. Davis.
Q. Where does he live? A. He lives in Boston, Massa
chusetts.
Q. Now, since these two boys have been going to school,
Mrs. Davis, who has been looking after them? A. I have,
—32—
especially since my hnsband died.
Q. Now, for instance, to whom are their report cards
sent? A. Sent to me.
Q. And who signs their report cards ? A. I sign them.
Q. Now, have they gone through grade school into high
school? A. They have.
Q. And who brought them to their grade school and to
their high school? A. What do you mean?
Q. Who enrolled them there? A. I took them there,
each one, when the time came.
Q- Now, have you been appointed their legal guardian?
A. I haven’t.
Q. Has anybody, prior to the Spring of 1965, did any
body ever mention to you that your authority with them
was not sufficient for school matters because you weren’t
their legal guardian ? A. They haven’t.
Q. Now, do you recall in the Spring of 1965 that freedom
of choice forms were circulated to the parents and to the
—3 3 -
children going to school in the Franklin County School
District? A. I remember.
Q- And did you receive such freedom of choice forms?
A. The one—Cornell, the one that was going to the twelfth
grade brought one home. He was the only one that was
Deposition of Inez Davis
614a
given one, and yon have to apply for the other one, if you
want to send the other children, bnt he had to sign one
for one school or the other.
Q. Did Larry get any transfer application or anything
of that kind? A. He didn’t get one, bnt he conld have
gotten one. They were given ont.
Q. Did yon file a transfer for Larry? A. Not that year.
Q. With respect to Cornell, what school did you and he
seek to enroll him in? A. In Louisbnrg High School.
Q. Is that a school in which the teachers are white and
most of the students white? A. That’s right.
Q. And what school had he been going to before? A.
Riverside.
- 3 4 -
Q. Why did yon try to enroll him in Lonisburg instead
of Riverside? A. When he brought the blank home to sign,
he was somewhat interested and I thought it was all
right.
Q. Now, which school did you think was a better school!
A. Well, according to all you hear—
Mr. Yarborough: All you what?
A. All you hear about the schools, and different schools,
we thought that was the best.
By Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Was your purpose in doing it to get him a better
education ?
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form of it.
Mr. Schwelb: All right.
Deposition of Inez Davis
615a
Deposition of Inez Davis
By Mr. Schwelb:
Q. What was your purpose in trying to send him to
Louisburg? A. I wanted him to get as good an education
as he could get, that was available.
Mr. Schwelb: I think your objection is well
founded. I ’m sorry, Mr. Yarborough.
By Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Now, about what time in the year did you make that
application, do you remember? A. I don’t exactly remem
ber, but it was—I think it was a little before school closed
that they brought the application home.
Q. Now, was the application for your grandson accepted
—35—
or rejected for the school? A. It was rejected.
Q. Do you know on what grounds it was rejected? A.
Because it wasn’t by his legal parents, his parents or legal
guardian.
Q. Now, Mrs. Davis, when did you learn it was rejected?
A. It was the last of August, about the time for school to
open.
Q. That was about three months after you filed it? A.
I don’t exactly—I can’t exactly say. I don’t know just—I
know it was just before school closed that he brought it,
and then I got this letter—
Q. The summer vacation intervened, is that right? A.
That’s right.
Q- Now, do you know whether your son who lives in
Boston was willing or unwilling to send the child to the
-'Ouisburg school? A. He didn’t know anything about it.
Q' Did you have an opportunity to check with him after
616a
the application was rejected? A. Well, when I got the ap
plication it was time for school to open, just abont.
-3 6 -
Q. When you got the rejection? A. When I got the re
jection it was just about time for school to open. I thought
it was too late to do anything but send him to school.
Q. Now, Mrs. Davis, I direct your attention to the time
back in 1963 when there were racial demonstrations over in
Halifax County. Do you remember that? A. I do.
Q. Do you remember hearing about some Klu Klux Klan
slogans and pamphlets that were being circulated at that
time? A. I do, and, too, I heard about them being in
Louisburg, over the other side of the river.
Q. Let me ask you this: Did you at that time have any
contact, however vague, with the Klu Klux Klan? A,
Well, all I had was a note in my yard, right at my window,
Q. What did the note say, if you remember? A. It stated
the Klu Klux Klan is on the move.
Q. Now, at that time do you know what kind of crisis
was going on in Halifax County? A. I can’t say I know
too much about it.
Q. Do you know that it had anything to do with integra
tion? A. At this time I can’t say. I ’ve just forgot all
about it. It’s so many things—
—37-
Q. Now, where did you enroll your son Larry for this
coming year? A. In Louisburg High School.
Q. You still believe it is a better school?
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form of the
question.
Deposition of Inez Davis
A. I think it’s all right.
617a
Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mrs. Davis, where did you enroll your six children
when they were in school ? A. They went to Riverside. Of
course, at that time it wasn’t Riverside. It was Franklin
County Training School. All of mine, I think, when they
went to school it was Franklin County Training School.
Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mrs. Davis, your six children, how long ago since
they were in school? I’m talking about your own children.
I don’t know. About how long has it been since they
finished? A. Since they finished school? Well, let me
see. The last one of my children finished in 1950.
Q. The last one of your own children finished in 1950?
—38—
A. That’s right.
Q. And these boys, Cornell and Larry, were your grand
children? A. Yes.
Q. And their father lived in Boston and works in Boston?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And his wife, their mother’s address is unknown?
A. Yes, that’s right.
Q. Has he married again? A. No, he hasn’t.
Q. That is his home, that is, in Boston? A. That’s right.
Q- And they are his children? A. Yes.
Q- Were they born up there? A. No, no. Born here.
Q' He was living in Franklin County at the time? A.
That’s right.
Q. And you got a notice in May of 1965 relative to a
freedom of choice regarding Cornell who was found to be
in the twelfth grade? A. That’s right.
Deposition of Inez Davis
618a
Deposition of Inez Davis
Q. The other hoy could have got one but he was in
another grade, wasn’t he? A. That’s right.
Q. So you understood that in only four grades freedom of
choice applied? A. I did, but it said on there the parents
could apply to the others.
Q. To the others? A. That’s right.
Q. And you didn’t send for a form on that? A. No, I
didn’t.
Q. And that form you said was to be signed by legal
parents or guardian? A. That’s right.
Q. And of course you were neither? A. That’s right.
Q. Neither parent nor legal guardian? A. That’s right,
Q. Nevertheless, you signed. Mrs. Davis, I was looking
here—you live at 1009 South Main Street? A. That’s
right.
Q. Where is that, how far down? A. Well, it’s not too
far down.
Q. About the ice plant, Little River Ice? A. That’s
right.
Q. And how long have you lived there? A. I’ve been
there thirty—
-40-
Q. Thirty-some years? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Or near that. Do you own your place or do you rent!
A. Me and my husband did.
Q. He died. What was his name? A. Howard Davis.
Q. What kind of work did he do? A. He farmed and
later he just plowed gardens, you know. He had a stroke
a time or two.
Q. How long has he been dead? A. 1960.
Q. Now, Mrs. Davis, your hoy Cornell I believe graduated
this past Spring? A. Yes, sir.
- 3 9 -
619a
Q. Over there at Riverside. He went on and made his
grade? A. He did.
Q. And yon say that he thought he could get—that the
Louisburg School is a better school. Have you ever been
up in to the school? A. Louisburg School?
Q. Yes, ma’am. A. I haven’t.
—41—
Q. You have not? A. You mean over to Louisburg?
Q. Yes. A. I have not.
Q. You have no idea how it is arranged or anything about
it? A. No, I don’t. I have seen the other school.
Q. Beg your pardon. A. I had seen the other school.
Q. Millside? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was an old building that was sold? A. Yes, I
know.
Q. Now, Mrs. Davis, you filled out this form for Cornell
in May of 1965 and sent it on back to the school or to the
Board of Education, or somewhere; you sent it on back?
A. Yes, I sent it Avhere it said send it.
Q. Where it said send it. And then you got an answer
sometime later, in August I believe, just before school
opened? A. That’s right, just about time the school—the
school opened twenty-something.
Q. You did have three months to check with the boys’
—4 2 -
father to sign but you signed? A. I had three months?
Q. Between May and August. A. May?
Q- You got it in May and sent it back to the school and
beard the answer the last part of August? A. That’s
right.
Q. So you had pretty much three months to check with
your son, James H., regarding his boy, didn’t you? A.
Yes, and if I had known it was required, I would have.
Deposition of Inez Davis
620a
Q. But you did not tell him of any change! A. I don’t
know as I did. The boys might have told him.
Q. I ’m talking about—you know that the paper stated
that parent or legal guardian! A. No, no, the paper didn’t
say that. I mean the paper said parent or guardian. It
didn’t say anything about legal, being the legal guardian
when I signed it.
Q. I hand you this paper and I ask you to see if that
isn’t the paper you signed in 1965! A. I know I signed
one.
Q. I am not trying to embarrass you, Mrs. Davis. I just
want you to see if that is the paper that you signed. A, I
-43-
see.
Q. I understood her to say it didn’t say legal guardian,
A. I don’t know what—but at any rate I probably didn’t,
Q. Mrs. Davis, I mean this is your signature; that is
what you signed, isn’t it? A. That’s right.
Q. And it is right over the word parent or legal guardian’
A. That’s right.
Q. And you were neither! A. That’s right. But how
did they know that ?
Q. You were not either! A. How did they know?
Q. That is a different qeustion. You were neither. B
does state parent or legal guardian? A. I just want to
see.
Q. If you will read that.
Mr. Schwelb: We are happy to concede it so states
Mr. Yarborough: I wish you would mark this 4
identification. Identify it for the defendants so that
if we ever do put it in evidence—identify it.
— 44"
Deposition of Inez Davis
(Marked for Identification)
621a
Deposition of Inez Davis
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mrs. Davis, you said something about—in 1963 about
Halifax County. Were you living in Halifax County at
that time? A. No. I said I heard about it. I said I didn’t
know too much about it.
Q. You say you found a note on the top of your window?
A. It was on the ground outside of the window.
Q. Outside of the window. And that was in 1963? A.
That’s right, in April.
Q. But in 1965 when you thought that you had the right
to make a choice for your grandchild Cornell Davis, you
applied for him to be assigned to the Louisburg School?
A. I did.
Q. And this note that you found was on the ground, out
near the window, was on the ground, wasn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. Was it stamped or stuck in the ground or just lying
on the ground? A. At my bedroom on the right side. I
came from the kitchen up in the room and just walked up
to the window—
Q. And saw it on the ground? A. On the ground. I
walked up to the window, like I just walk up to this window,
—45—
from the back, and I saw a note, and I came out, and I
wondered why it was there, and I went out and got it.
Q. Mrs. Davis, how far is your house from South Main
Street? A. Say what?
Q. How far from the road or the street is your house?
A. How far from the road?
Q-Yes, ma’am. About how many feet? A. Say what?
Q. About how many feet? A. I don’t know whether it’s
twenty.
622a
Q. About twenty feet? A. I don’t know it’s even that
far.
Q. You don’t know it is twenty feet, but it is close to tie
road! A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is, the Main Street of Louisburg? A. Yes, sir,
Q. It’s heavily travelled by people walking and riding;
it’s a lot of traffic on the road? A. That’s right.
Q. Mrs. Davis, how close is your house to a neighbor’s
-46-
house? A. Well, it’s a long ways on the side, over north,
Q. On the other side who is your nearest neighbor? A,
Mrs. Lewis is on the other side.
Q. Mrs. Lewis?
Mr. Yarborough: You all will stipulate that this
is a copy of what she acknowledged was her signa
ture?
Mr. Sehwelb: We will so stipulate.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mrs. Davis, that is a copy that the government law
yers just made of this paper. That is correct, isn’t it! Is
that a copy of your signature on that paper right there!
A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chambers: That is, Mrs. Davis.
Mr. Sehwelb: We will stipulate to that.
Mr. Yarborough: That that is a copy of it. That’s
all. Thank you, Mrs. Davis.
Mr. Chambers: We’d like to introduce it as
Plaintiff’s Exhibit A.
Deposition of Inez Davis
Witness excused.
623a
Exhibit A
Form B-3
FRANKLIN COUNTY SCHOOLS
Louisburg, North Carolina
May 10, 1965
Dear Parent:
The Board of Education of the Franklin Connty Ad
ministrative Unit has adopted the following policy for
pupils who are promoted to the second, ninth, and twelfth
grades:
The parents or legal guardian of a pupil now in the 1st,
8th, or 11th grade of a school in the Franklin County Ad
ministrative Unit, and who is promoted to the 2nd, 9th, or
12th grade, are required to file application for the enroll
ment of such pupil for the 1965-66 school year in the ap
propriate grade of the school of their choice. The choice
of the school must be expressed and the application below
completed and signed by the parents or legal guardian and
returned to the pupil’s present classroom teacher on or
Before May 14, 1965.
The choice is granted to the parents or legal guardian of
a child entitled to attend the schools of the Franklin County
Administrative Unit, in accordance with the provisions of
the Plan for Compliance with the Civil Rights Act of 1964,
624a
Exhibit A
adopted by the Franklin County Board of Education on
May 3, 1965.
Fbanklin County B oabd op Education
By: Mbs. T. H. Dickens
Mrs. T. H. Dickens, Chairman
W a b r e n W. Smith
Warren W. Smith, Secretary-
Application for Enrollment in the 12th grade of Louis-
burg High School for the 1965-66 School Year.
Cornel W. Davis—Name of child
Signed: Mbs. Inez Davis—Parent or Legal Guardian
Signed: .............................
1009 S. Main St.
May 11, 1965
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
—47—
Thaddeus Jeeome Cheek, being first duly sworn, was ex
amined and testified as follows:
Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Would you please state your name, your age, and
your race for the record? A. Thaddeus Jerome Cheek, 17
years old, Negro.
Q. Where do you live, Jerome? A. About a mile and a
half west of Rocky Ford.
Q. Is that in Franklin County, North Carolina? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Jerome, are you a graduate of Louisburg High
School? A. Yes.
Q. Are you the first Negro graduated? A. Yes.
Q. Now, Jerome, I’d like to ask you whether, back in the
Spring of last year, you and your father received the oppor
tunity to file a freedom of choice application as to which
school you would attend? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And which school did you choose at that time? A. I
chose Louisburg High.
—48—
Q- Is that a school attended predominantly by white stu
dents? A. Yes.
Q. And taught by white teachers? A. Yes.
Q. What school had you been attending prior to that?
A. Riverside High.
Q. What race of people teach and study there? A. Ne
groes.
Q. Now, would you tell us, please, why you selected Lou-
isWig High School instead of Riverside High School? A.
el > I chose Louisburg because the classes weren’t as
crowded and I thought it was a better school, could learn
wore there.
626a
Q. Let me ask you this: you have attended both Louis-
burg and Riverside now, haven’t you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In which are the classes more crowded, in Louisburg
or Riverside? A. Riverside.
Q. Now, did you have schoolbooks in both Louisburg and
Riverside? A. Yes, sir.
-49-
Q. Was there any difference in the schoolbooks? A
Those that I had were practically new.
Q. Where? A. At Louisburg.
Q. In what condition were the ones at Riverside? A
They were in fair condition.
Q. In fair condition ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were they as new as the ones at Louisburg? A.No,
sir.
Q. Now, did you ride a school bus to both schools? A
Yes, I did.
Q. In which school was the school bus newer? A. The
one at Louisburg High.
Q. Were there any courses that you took at Louisburg
High that were not available at Riverside ? A. I took gov
ernment and bookkeeping. Government was offered. I
didn’t take that. It was offered.
Q. Do you remember if government and bookkeeping
were taught there, were they courses that were offerd at
Riverside? A. Government was offered but I don’t think
it was offered until the last year, and bookkeeping was not
offered.
—50-
Q. Now, Jerome, did you understand that you had free
dom of choice between any formerly white high school and
any formerly Negro school in the district when yon ap
plied? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheeh
627a
Q. Was it your impression that you would be transported
to whatever school that you chose? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, would you describe, please, the manner in which
you got to Louisburg High School during the different parts
of the school year that you attended Louisburg? A. Well,
about the first month or so my father would take me to
Mr. Shelley Brown’s store and I would catch the Louisburg
bus there.
Q. How far is Mr. Shelley Brown’s store from your
house? A. About three and an eighth miles.
Q. What did your father do for a living? A. Part-time
electrician for Mr. Beasley.
Q. After that arrangement was ended, how did you get
to Mr. Shelley Brown’s house? A. Well, the girl that drove
the Biverside bus told me that she would come over early
enough that I could get the Louisburg bus to get to school
on time.
—51—
Q. So you took two busses after that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, actually there is another school of—predomi
nately -white school that is nearer to you, is that right? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. What school is that? A. Epson High.
Q. Why didn’t you choose Epson High School? A. Be
cause I—I guess—I couldn’t really say. This friend of
mine, Cornell Davis, and I had both planned to ge to Lou
isburg High and we knew practically all the people in
Epson.
Q- You knew all the people in Epson, in the community,
and you didn’t go so what was your advantage?
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
628a
Q. (Mr. Sehwelb) If you knew all the people in the com
munity, why did you go there? A. I felt that I might be
intimidated.
Q. At Epson? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have any opinion between Epson and Louis-
burg? A. I thought Louisburg was better.
Q. Now, Jerome, I’d like to show you a piece of paper
-5 2 -
and ask you to read it out loud please.
Mr. Sehwelb: Is that procedure satisfactory?
Mr. Yarborough: Yes.
A. “Beware, beware, beware, listen. We don’t want you in
the white school any more than you want to be here, so
why don’t you make it easier for your family and you drop
out of school now. It will be easier for us to get you out
but that would get a little messy for you. We are not about
to take a more sure fire action. There will not be black faces
in the senior class when graduation gets here. But you
didn’t know that, did you. Surprise. There will not be a
black face in the senior class. This is not a threat. This is
a promise. Beware, beware, beware.”
Q. Jerome, what you have just read, is that a copy of
anything you have ever seen before? A. Yes, I got two
copies of a note written like that.
Q. Where did you find those? A. One was placed on
my locker and the other was found on my desk.
Q. At what school? A. At Louisburg.
Q. Now, in fairness to everybody what did you do with
—53—
that note? A. The first one, I took it home to my father
and showed it to him and the next day I gave it to Mr. Fox.
Q. Mr. who? A. Fox.
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
629a
Q. Is he the principal? A. Yes.
Q. Was Mr. Fox sympathetic to you? A. Yes, he had
been out to the house a couple of days before that and told
me that some notes were going around and told me what
was on it and if I should get one of them not to be shocked
and bring it to him.
Q. Was Mr. Fox nice to you throughout the time you
were at Louisburg school? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And were the teachers? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I will ask you whether—were you involved in any
activities other than your studies at Louisburg school last
year? A. I helped put on the senior class play.
Q. What was your function in connection with the senior
class play? A. I was in the crew. I helped build the sets.
—54—
Q. And did you have to do that in the evenings some
times? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there ever any occasion for your father to come
to the school ? A. He came to pick me up, after work.
Q. How many times did he have to do that? A. Three
or four times.
Q. Did anything occur near your home shortly after the
times when your father came to pick you up at home? A.
Some oil was placed in our well.
Q. Placed in your well? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was that investigated by any of the authorities ?
A. Yes, sir. Daddy told the sheriff of Franklin County and
he told him that he thought the FBI should be notified
about it.
Q. And were the FBI notified? A. Yes, sir.
Q- So far as you know has anybody been punished for
putting oil in your well? A. No, sir.
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
630a
Q. I will ask you whether your father was in the PTA,
-5 5 -
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember whether or not he went to any PTA
meetings ? A. He went to one. I think it was the fifth one
that they had.
Q. And thereafter did anything else happen, after he had
gone to the PTA meeting? A. Well, he had attended the
senior class play the night after he attended the PTA,
and that Sunday night some more oil was placed in the well.
Q. Is it easy to get oil out of a well?
Mr. Yarborough: Yes.
Mr. Schwelb: I withdraw that question.
Q. (Mr. Schwelb) I will ask you if you know how the oil
was taken out of your well? A. Yes.
Q. How? A. It was drawn out by a water pump and-
several times—and washed the walls down with soap and
detergent, and he drawed it off several more times after
that.
Q. Where are you planning to continue your education?
A. At North Carolina College, in Durham.
Q. Jerome, if you had chosen a predominantly Negro
school, do you believe you would have been able to go to
college ?
—56—
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
Mr. Schwelb (To Witness): You can answer it.
A. No.
Q. (Mr. Schwelb) And do you believe that oil would have
been put in your well every time?
631a
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
Mr. Schwelb (To Witness): You can answer.
A. No, sir.
Q. (Mr. Schwelb) And do you know whether many Ne
groes in the community know that these things happened?
A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schwelb: I have no further questions.
Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Did you participate in any activities at the Louisburg
School? A. I was in the French Club. As I said, I helped
build the set for the senior play.
Q. Did you participate in any athletics? A. No.
Q. Did you have any incidents on the busses from your
home to the school? A. I was called names and paper was
shot at me several times.
—57—
Mr. Yarborough: What was done?
A. I was called names and paper was shot at me several
times.
Q. (Mr. Chambers) What do you mean by papers were
shot at you ? A. They used rubber bands and pull it back
and shoot like that.
Q. These incidents were reported to the principal of the
school? A. Yes, sir.
Q- And Mr. Fox investigated and disciplined those re
sponsible? A. I think so, yes, sir.
Q- Were these incidents communicated to any of the
other Negro children there in schools like Riverside or
other Negro schools? A. What?
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
632a
Q, These incidents that occurred to you on the busses to
school. A. Had they happened before?
Q. No, did the Negro community know about these inci
dents! A. Oh, yes, sir.
Mr. Chambers: No further questions.
-58-
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Now, Jerome, you live between Rocky Ford and Bob
bitt and Vance County, don’t you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Close to the edge of Franklin County? A. Vance
County?
Q. Close to the edge of Franklin County and Vance
County? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Epson School is closer to your home, isn’t it!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How far is it from where you live to Epson? A.
About four and a half miles.
Q. About four and a helf miles. And the school bus serv
ing Epson and the school bus serving Riverside go right
by your house, don’t they? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you chose the Louisburg school? A. Yes.
Q. How far is it from your home? A. To Louisburg?
Q. Yes. A. About nine miles.
Q. And it’s very little difference between the distance
between the Riverside School and Louisburg School and
—59-
your home? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And both of them are almost the same distance.
Yes, sir.
Q. Jerome, do you know that your father agreed to those
arrangements for your transportation? A. Do I
633a
Q. Your father agreed to the arrangements for you to
get to Riverside School, didn’t he? A. I think he said he
was going to try it and see how it did work out.
Q. Did he ever make any complaint about it not working-
out? A. Not so far as I know.
Q. What’s that? A. Not to me he didn’t.
Q. I will ask you if you don’t know that your father was
told that you could go to the Riverside—to the Louisburg
School even though he lived outside of the tax district? A.
That’s right.
Q. You were told that to go there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And in view of the freedom of choice the County
Board of Education wanted to give—to let him exercise
—60—
and use the freedom of choice? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that the State regulations didn’t permit them to
send a bus six or eight miles out of the way to pick up one
child? He was told that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How far do you live from the Louisburg bus? A.
About—the bus came about a half a mile from Mr. Shelley
Brown’s house.
Q. How far is that from you? A. It’s about four to five
miles.
Q. Four or five miles from there the bus came? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And you do know that pursuant to your father’s ar
rangements they arranged for the bus to go to Shelley
Brown’s store or house? A. Yes.
Q- And further down the road at a place where you were
to meet the bus? A. Yes.
Q- Your answer is ‘yes’ ? A. Yes.
Q. And your father said he would try it and see how it
■ftould work and he never made a complaint or requested
a change, did he? A. No, sir.
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
634a
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
—61-
Q. And yon had a similar arrangement throughout the
school year? A. Yes.
Q. And that didn’t interfere with your studies because
you graduated, didn’t you? A. Yes.
Q. Now, Jerome, do you know that schoolbooks are is
sued out of a central school book room to all the schools,
distributed to them without regard to one school or an
other? A. A didn’t know.
Q. And whenever you went to school at Riverside or
Louisburg you took whatever books were offered to you!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you do know that the State of North Carolina
provided the books? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that the County had nothing to do with it but
that the State provides the books? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you do know, too, that the State of North Caro
lina provides the school busses? A. Yes, sir.
—62-
Q. That the County buys the bus new and that the bus
is used until the State of North Carolina school officials
replaces it? A. Yes.
Q. And you say that you rode to Riverside on the River
side bus and then on to the Louisburg school? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know the State of North Carolina decides
when they replace a bus? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you not understand, too, that the County took the
school bus and moved you from one school to the other!
A. I don’t know.
Q. Did they have some brand new busses at Riverside
from time to t im e? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And some there were new and some are old? A. Yes,
sir.
635a
Q. And some at Louisburg were new, weren’t they, and
some weer old? A. One was.
Q. One was what? A. One was old.
—63—
Q. One was old. Now, about this class play. You didn’t
go out for the acting part of it? A. No, sir.
Q. That is the way—the acting parts are filled by those
most talented, the teacher picks those out? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the teacher picks who she or they thought was
the best to act the part? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it was a voluntary thing completely, wasn’t it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you volunteered to be a stage hand? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And there were white boys who were stage hands?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you all work together? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what you did was all voluntary? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you did not seek to be an actor in the play, is
that right? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You didn’t go out for football? A. No, sir.
Q. Or any other athletics? A. No.
—64—
Q. And you did play football over at Riverside? A.
Yes, my junior year.
Q. You played at Riverside but nobody kept you at Lou
isburg from going out for anything you wanted to? A.Yes,
sir.
Q- K you wanted to go out for football you could have?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And basketball, if you had made the team? A. Yes,
sir,
Q- And the school class took a trip, you had an oppor
tunity to have gone ? A. I could have gone to—
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
636a
Q. You had an opportunity to go to Washington if you
had wanted to? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you didn’t ask to go on that, is that right? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And the time the seniors went you stayed at home?
A. Yes.
Q. You didn’t ask to go? A. Yes.
Q. And you stayed at home? A. Yes, sir.
-6 5 -
Q. And you had an opportunity to go just like any other
students? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the only difficulty you had was with the white
boys on the bus? A. Yes.
Q. How tall are you, Jerome? A. Six, four.
Q. Six feet, four inches. How much did you weigh? A.
240.
Q. You consider yourself in good health? A. Yes, sir,
Q. And you consider yourself a strong boy? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And a former football player at Riverside? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And I believe you got sick one time and went to the
hospital while you were in school? A. Yes, sir.
Q. At Louisburg? A. Yes.
Q. And your teacher, one of them, some of them sent
you a letter, some of them brought you flowers or candy,
didn’t they? A. Mrs. Arnold brought a candy basket and
— 66—
Mrs. Bland sent me a get-well card.
Q. A get-well card. And they were white teachers that
taught you? A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. A1 Fox is the principal, isn’t he? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And he talked with you several times? A. Yes.
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
637a
Q. And you talked to him, and he did everything in his
power to treat you just like other people in the school!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he told you that he couldn’t keep folks from star
ing at you! A. Yes, sir.
Q. But that he could handle it if they interfered with
you! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And I suppose they did stare at you, didn’t they! A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Now, Jerome, this oil in the well, of course, you don’t
know who put it there, do you! A. No, sir.
Q. And your father doesn’t know so far as you know!
—67—
A. No, sir.
Q. Either time you say, at either time it was put there!
A. No, sir.
Q. And your father’s well is a long way from the road,
isn’t it! A. No, sir.
Q. How far! A. About fifty yards away.
Q. Fifty yards, that is a hundred fifty feet! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And your father’s house, he has inside plumbing, it’s
a pump in the well that pumps the water about five hun
dred or more feet to your father’s house! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the other people live nearer than your father
does! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the well—they use it! A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many families use water from that well! A.
Three in all.
Q- Your father and two more families! A. Yes.
— 68—
Q. Some of these people live nearer than your father
did! A. Yes, sir.
Q- Your father had a pump to his house and the others
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
638a
went there and drew water by bucket with a chain! A,
Yes, sir.
Q. And the first incident, somebody came to your father’s
house and thought that somebody had oiled the chain! A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And thought that he had oiled the chain! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that is the first time he knew about it! A. Yes,
sir.
Q. The well had an open top! A. Yes, sir.
Q. About three feet square! A. Yes, sir.
Q. A well bucket and a chain! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the well was open, it didn’t have a cover or lid
on it, it stood open! A. It had a cover on it.
Q. Had to open the cover and draw the water! A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And that cover frequently was up! A. Took it off to
-6 9 -
draw water, and put it back on.
Q. Had a hole in it for the chain to go through! A. No.
Q. Didn’t have any bucket that stayed down in the well
and the other one came up! A. It only had one bucket.
Q. Just one bucket on the end of the chain! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the well was there, anybody used the well in the
community any time they wanted to and got water! A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And, Jerome, the sheriff investigated the thing, didn’t
he! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the FBI did! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they came to your house many times—several
times, didn’t they! A. Yes, sir.
Q. They worked hard on it! A. Yes.
Q. The FB I! A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
639a
Q. And even the FBI with its facilities have never yet
—70—
been able to turn up who did it? A. No, sir.
Q. And your mother or your father never gave the sher
iff the name of anybody that they thought might have done
it, did they? A. Not that I know of.
Q. And so far as you all know it was done by unknown
persons? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you think you know the reason, but you cannot
say the reason, can you? A. No, sir.
Q. It’s only a guess, any reason that you have given?
A. Yes. sir.
Q. And your brother did drive a bus to Riverside? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And between the time------and you talked about driv
ing the school bus to Professor Harris? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He is the principal of Riverside School, isn’t he? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And even after your father had made his application
for you to go to Louisburg, you talked to Professor Harris
to see if you couldn’t get on driving a bus for him? A.
Yes, sir.
—71—
Q. You told him that really—and you talked to Professor
Harris? You know who I ’m talking about—Carl Harris?
A. Yes, sir.
Q- And you asked him to see if you—to talk to your
parents and see if they couldn’t get you back to Riverside?
A. No, sir.
Q- You didn’t tell him that? A. I told him that I didn’t
know whether I would be assigned to Riverside or not. I
told him if I did, I wanted to drive a bus, because I was
only assigned to Louisburg about two weeks before I went
there.
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
640a
Q. But you knew that the Board of Education had said
that every child in Franklin County entering the twelfth
grade would be assigned to the school that their parent or
legal guardian requested? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You did know that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have any reason to believe that the Board
of Education were trying to mislead you? You didn’t, did
you? A. No, I didn’t have any reason.
Q. And you did get to go to the school that you wanted
—72—
to go? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And at considerable trouble for the Board of Edu
cation arranging and setting up transportation? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And the transportation was agreed to by your father,
wasn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. After a conference he had with the officials of the
Board of Education? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he never made a complaint after you started!
A. Not as I know of.
Mr. Schwelb: If you know.
Mr. Yarborough: Did you say you weren’t put
ting on his father?
Mr. Schwelb: I don’t—
Mr. Yarborough: If you object to it, put the ob
jection in.
Mr. Schwelb: Right. I was just explaining to him.
Q. (Mr. Yarborough) Jerome, you all—he and his fam
ily—live in Hayesville Township in Franklin County? ̂
Yes, sir.
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
—73—
Q. And Epson School is the only school in Hayesville
Township, isn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Louisburg Township has got two schools in it,
Riverside School and Lonisburg School? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you knew that several years ago all the voters in
Louisburg Township voted a bond issue and built the new
Louisburg school and paid a special tax for it? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And your father owns his own land, of course, and
lie doesn’t pay a nickel of tax to the Louisburg Township-
lie wouldn’t if he pays his county tax? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And in spite of that your father requested of the
Board of Education, wanted them to let bim send you to
Louisburg High School? A. Well, I had been going to
Riverside before then.
Mr. Chambers: We’d like to object to the form of
the question. If you know.
Q. (Mr. Yarborough) I say the Louisburg School was
built by the Louisburg Township, they did it, and the Ep
son School was built by County money ? A. I couldn’t say.
—74^
Q. So far as you know? A. I couldn’t say.
Q- You do know that you live in Hayesville Township?
Your father votes at Epson School? A. Yes, sir.
Q- And you are not old enough to vote. Now, in spite
of these few instances or the incident as you say about in
timidation, you say whenever you went to school you were
treated nicely by the principal and faculty, and you gradu
ated? A. Yes.
Q- A n d y o u r p e o p le c a m e to g r a d u a t io n , d id n ’ t th e y ?
A- Y e s , sir .
642a
Q. And the colored people came to the senior class play!
A. My mother and father.
Q. Your mother and father came to the senior play, and
your father came to the PTA? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have to join that, don’t you pay some dues? A,
Yes, sir.
Q. And he did join that without any trouble? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And you did know that parents of other people joined
the PTA, who wanted to go? Did you ever go to one? A.
-7 5 -
I went to one with daddy. They put on a skit of the senior
play at the PTA meeting the night before it was presented,
Q. You went to the PTA meeting with your father? A,
Yes, sir.
Q. And he came in and took a seat where he wanted to,
didn’t he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. As a matter of fact he sat far in the back, didn’t he?
A. I didn’t see him. I was in the back, behind the stage.
Q. You were there working? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were working, doing work you volunteered to
do? A. Yes, sir, that’s right.
Q. And doing the same work you had asked to do? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. You asked to be made a stage hand; all seniors didn’t
take part in it, did they? A. No.
Q. Jerome, you stated that your father had to take yon
home sometime at night. That was because of—on account
of your voluntary work? A. Yes, sir.
—76—
Q. And every student that took part in the night wort
either had to walk home or somebody had to come after
them? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
643a
Q. Didn’t run a school bus for anybody out there that
worked at night; you knew that when you started to do
the work? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that work was done because you wanted to do it!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And each student had to get to his home by his own
means! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And some of them probably lived closer to the school
and probably walked. Now, your father, believe he farms,
too, rents his farm—he owns a farm, doesn’t he? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And he also was working for C. M. Beasley as an
electrician? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And been there for a number of years? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He is still working for him, isn’t he? A. No, sir, not
now.
—78—
Q. Doesn’t he do any part-time work? A. He does part-
time work for him, but Mr. Beasley is supposed to be going
out of business.
Q. Mr. Beasley’s health is bad, and he doesn’t work like
he used to. Your father had worked for him from time to
time? A. Yes, sir.
Q- Yes, sir, and he’s done wiring for many, many white
people? A. Yes.
Q. You know that Mr. Beasley—at times, on account of
his health, Mr. Beasley wasn’t active, your father on his
own did work? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And people call him directly and not through Mr.
Beasley? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that was all after you entered the Louisburg
school? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
644a
Q. And when this so-called incident took place? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Yonr father never complained about the public treat
ing him any different except on this incident? A. He said
he thought he didn’t have as much business as he could have.
-7 8 -
Q. He was working for Mr. Beasley until his business
closed down, wasn’t he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then he worked on work for himself? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what work he thought he could have got!
A. Mr. Beasley used him only mostly in the summer, and
during the time Mr. Beasley stopped, and daddy does a lot
of work around home.
Q. Your father is not really a licensed electrician or
licensed plumber, is he? A. No, sir.
Q. He never took the State Board examination on either
one of them? A. No.
Q. Even during the time when your father was making
his own arrangements he did that work under Mr. Beasley’s
license? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he wired houses? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Because Mr. Beasley was willing to assume that re
sponsibility even though he had closed down to some extent!
—79—
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Your father felt like maybe people should have called
him more during that time, but he kept working during the
time he was with Mr. Beasley?
Mr. Schwelb: I object to the form of the question.
A. Yes.
Q. Your father worked both for white and colored people
when he worked for Mr. Beasley? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
645a
Q. Don’t you know he worked for many white people!
A. Sir?
Q. He worked for many white people at times or some,
anyhow, didn’t he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And his complaint was that he thought he ought to
have more work, or his statement? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all. Thank you.
Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. When you executed your form for transfer, were you
under the impression that you could apply and be assigned
to any school in Franklin County? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you have any notice that you would have some
—8 0 -
bus difficulty? A. No, sir.
Q. And what was it you said with respect to your father’s
feeling about his work, or lack of it? A. Well during this
time that Mr. Beasley’s health was bad he said that he felt
maybe he could have had a little bit more work if I hadn’t
attended the school, and Mr. Beasley told him afterwards
that pressure had been put on him about that.
Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Your father, of course, was a good electrician and a
good plumber, but he was not licensed and had no license
to operate in his own name? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And everything he did, when he was not working
under—for Mr. Beasley, he did under Mr. Beasley’s license?
A. Yes.
Q- And even though Mr. Beasley was not present or did
not make the contract, he did do it under Mr. Beasley’s
license? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
646a
Q. So your father is not a skilled licensed man, is he!
A. No, sir.
-8 1 -
Q. And as soon as Mr. Beasley started back doing more
work and his health got better your father still worked for
him from time to time whenever he called him? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And during all the time your father has been farm
ing, or he owns the land? A. Yes.
Q. He rents the farm out? A. Yes. Farms cotton and
corn.
Q. He farms cotton and corn and rented his tobacco be
cause he wanted to? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Because of the work he was doing the other times!
A. Sir?
Q. I say he didn’t have time to cultivate tobacco so be
rented the tobacco because he wanted to, and he continued
at what he called public work? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And during that time your father actually bought bis
brothers’ and sisters’ interest in the farm and borrowed
money from a land b a n k , hasn’t he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And all during this time you were in the Louisburg
school? A. Yes, sir.
-82 -
Q. And he never complained about any trouble getting
credit from the land banks certainly, did he? A. No, sir,
Q. And he did get credit from those? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you know the president of the Land Bank
Association is Mr. John Paul Askew who lived not so far
from your father? A. (No answer)
Q. You know Mr. John Paul Askew, don’t you, and yon
know he is the president of the Land Bank Association, and
he is a white man? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
647a
Q. And you voluntarily chose or was admitted to the
North Carolina College in Durham because you wanted to
go there, didn’t you? A. Yes.
Q. Did you apply to any other school? A. No, sir. I
felt in order for me to go to college I would have to get a
loan.
Q. A loan to pay your expenses? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you picked North Carolina College on your own
choice? A. Yes, sir.
—83—
Q. And that is a predominantly colored college, isn’t it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have a brother in college, have you not? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And he is at Shaw University here in Raleigh? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And he went there because he wanted to? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And that is a wholly—predominantly Negro school,
isn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he get a loan, too ? A. He got an athletic scholar
ship.
Q. He is captain of the football team at Shaw University,
is he not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And on a scholarship, an athletic scholarship? A.
Yes, sir.
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all.
Witness excused.
648a
Deposition of Margaret Crudup
-8 4 -
M a b g a r e t C r u d u p being first duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows:
Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Margaret, I ’d like for you to speak loud and clear.
I ’d like for you to tell us your name and your age and your
address and your race. A. My name is Margaret Crudup.
I am eighteen years old and I live at Route 4, Box 89-B,
Louisburg, North Carolina. My race is Negro.
Q. Margaret, how long have you lived in Franklin
County? A. All of my life.
Q. How long have you been living in the part of Franklin
County where you live now? A. Just about a year.
Q. What part of the county did you live in before? A.
I stayed in Youngsville before.
Q. Are you a student? A. No. I graduated th is year.
Q. What school did you graduate from? A. R iverside
High School, Louisburg.
Q. Now, when you were living in Youngsville and going
to Riverside, how far was Riverside School from where
—85—
you lived? A. Well, I had to travel about seventeen miles
going and coming.
Q. And was there any school in the Franklin County
school system nearer to your home at that time than River
side High School? A. Youngsville High.
Q. How far was Youngsville High? A. From where I
live it’s about a half a mile.
Q. Now, if there were no other factors influencing y°u>
which of the two schools had you rather had gone to?
Youngsville or Riverside High? A. Youngsville.
Q. Tell us why you had rather gone to Youngsville?
649a
A. Because it had better facilities and everything, and the
class was smaller.
Q. The class was smaller and it had better facilities. Give
us the names of your parents, please, Margaret. A. James
and Annie Crudup.
Q. You live with them, and you used to live with them
at Youngsville ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, do you remember in the Spring of 1965 there
being a freedom of choice period at which time the twelfth
- 86-
grade was desegregated? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you recall whether your parents and you got
some freedom of choice forms? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Originally how did you complete your freedom of
choice forms, which school did you select? A. I selected
Youngsville High School.
Q. Is that the school that is a half a mile from your
home? A. Yes.
Q. Now, shortly after you selected the Youngsville High
School did you have a conversation with some other Negro
students in your class at Riverside? A. Yes, sir.
Q- And did you find out that they were or were not go
ing to Youngsville? A. They had applied to go but they
said that they weren’t going.
Q. Were you anxious to go there by yourself? A. No.
Q. Why was that? A. Because I was afraid I may be
mistreated in some way.
—87—
Q. Had you ever been mistreated? A. No.
Q. Had you ever been to a white school before? A. No,
sir.
Q- Had there been any Negroes attending the Youngs-
HUe School before? A. No, sir.
Deposition of Margaret Crudup
650a
Q. What kind of grades had yon been getting? A. Ever
since I ’ve been in high school I ’ve been an honor student,
and this year I made an “A ” average.
Q. Have you had mostly “A ’s” throughout the period?
A. Yes, sir.
Q, Now, why did you originally choose Youngsville when
you thought that you may be mistreated there! A. At
first, when I chose the school, I made a mistake. J thought
that all the seniors were supposed to have gone there, and
I found out differently. They didn’t have to go there it
they didn’t want to.
Q. And other children said they were not going to go!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who were the other students? A. Fannie Monroe
and Agnes Jefferson.
- 88-
Q. Now, they were Negroes? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you recognize your mother, Mrs. Annie Crudup’s
signature? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I would like to show you a copy of a letter, apparently
signed by your mother, and ask you if you know when tins
letter was written and where. A. Yes, sir.
Q. Tell us about that. A. It was written by a man op
in Youngsville at this—some type of fertilizer place. Any
way, he was working for the school board, and it was writ
ten on the sixth of June, 1965.
Q. Now, at that time your mother signed the letter ask
ing that you be withdrawn, that your choice be changed?
A. Yes.
Mr. Schwelb: I ’d like to offer this in evidence as
Exhibit 1 in the deposition of Miss Crudup, please'
Deposition of Margaret Crudup
(Marked for identification.)
651a
Q. (Examination by Mr. Schwelb continuing) Now, Mar
garet, some time after your parents or your mother signed
this letter withdrawing you, which was on June 10th, did
— 8 9 —
anything occur at your home of a frightening nature? A.
Yes. In the mail we got a threatening letter.
Q. Excuse me. A. It was a threatening letter.
Q. I’d like to show you a small letter with red writing on
it and an envelope and ask you if you have seen these be
fore? A. This is the letter that we got in the mail.
Q. Would you read that letter, please?
Mr. Yarborough: Well, the letter speaks for it
self, but I presume you will introduce it.
Mr. Schwelb: We will introduce it.
A. “Dear Mr. and Mrs. Crudup. We hear that you are
sending a child to Youngsville school. Well, we are giving
you thirty days to get out of Franklin County. Pay your
land what you owe him, if any. Leave your crop. We are
not going to warne you agane. We will start in your family
and will start with you. To killing.”
Mr. Schwelb: Now, I ’d like to offer as Govern
ment’s Exhibit 2 and 3 this letter and envelope which
has been identified by the witness.
(M a r k e d f o r id e n tif ic a t io n .)
Q- (M r. S c h w e lb ) W h o f ir s t s a w th is le t t e r in y o u r f a m -
—90—
1 y, Margaret? A. My sister went to the mail box and my
mother, she opened it.
Deposition of Margaret Grudup
652a
Q. How many children are there in your family! A. At
home there are three. Seven in all.
Q. I believe you lost a young brother in a car accident!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, what does your father do during the day! A,
During the day he worked on the farm.
Q. Is he around home? A. Yes.
Q. How did you react when your family received this
note f
Deposition of Margaret Crudup
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form of the ques
tion.
Mr. Schwelb (To Witness): You may answer.
A. Well, I was frightened myself when I first saw it. All
of us were frightened at the time we saw it.
Q. Did you know who you received the threat from? A.
No.
Q. Actually, you had already withdrawn your application
to Youngsville at the time you received this, is that right!
A. Yes.
Q. Now, although you had already withdrawn, did yon
-91-
take any further action? A. Yes. I wrote a letter to the
superintendent of the Franklin County Schools.
Q. I ’d like to show you another document and ask yon
if that is a copy of the letter you sent to the Franklin
County superintendent? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In whose handwriting is the test of the letter and
the date on top ? A. I wrote it.
Q. Who signed the letter? A. My parents.
Mr. Schwelb: I ’d like to offer that in evidence as
Government’s Exhibit 4.
(Marked for identification.)
653a
Q. (Mr. Schwelb) Why did you write that letter? A.
Because the man—the first man we sent it to, he said he
would let us know but he didn’t never notify us, so I
wanted to make sure so I went to the superintendent.
Q. And why were you so anxious to make sure at that
particular time? A. Because of the threat.
Q. Now, you graduated last year, did you? A. This
year.
—92—
Q. So you didn’t have any opportunity to choose a school
again for yourself ? A. No, sir.
Q. Are you going to college next year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, do you know where your younger brothers and
sisters are going to school this coming year—are they both
brothers and sisters? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where are they going? A. They were assigned to
Riverside High School.
Q. Riverside High School? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that where your parents applied for them? A.
Yes, sir.
Deposition of Margaret Crudup
Mr. Yarborough: I object to the form.
Mr. Schwelb: I withdraw that.
Q. (Mr. Schwelb) Do you believe that had you not made
tiie application to Youngsville that you would have
ceived this threatening letter ?
re-
Mr. Yarborough: I object to the form.
A. No.
M r. S c h w e lb : N o f u r t h e r q u e s t io n s .
654a
Deposition of Margaret Crudup
— 93-
Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Margaret, were you in any activities at Riverside
School? A. The whole four years that I went there!
Q. Yes. A. Yes.
Q. What activities? A. Well, I was in the Crown and
Scepter Club, the Choral Club, the Glee Club rather, the
Girls Scout and N H A.
Q. Is that the New Homemakers of America? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Were you in the N H A last year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is the Crown and Scepter Club? A. That is the
honor students.
Q. Do they have the Crown and Scepter Club at Youngs-
ville ? A. I don’t know.
Q. At Louisburg? A. I don’t know about Louisburg
High School, but they do at Riverside High.
Q. Were you at any time during the time you were in
Riverside in any activity that was racially mixed? A. Say
what?
- 9 4 -
Q. Did you participate in any activities with white stu
dents? A. No.
Q. Did any of your organizations meet with white stu
dents? A. No.
Q. Were you in the cheering squad? A. No.
Q . Did your basketball team ever play a white school!
A. Not as I know of.
Q. Did your football team ever play a white school? A.
No, sir.
Q. Never played Louisburg? A. No.
655a
Deposition of Margaret Crudup
Q. Or the basketball team ever play a white school? A.
No.
Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. You said some man wrote the first letter! A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And you yourself wrote the second? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So neither your mother nor your father did any of
the writing, other than putting their names on it, is that
- 9 5 -
right? A. That’s right. That’s all.
Q. Even the application, you made it out and they signed
it, didn’t they? A. That’s right.
Q. Margaret, on June 10th your mother I believe signed
a letter, I believe, didn’t she? A. Yes.
Q. And you got a letter—that so-called threatening letter
was postmarked in July, wasn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. So at that time your mother had already requested
that you be assigned to Riverside School? A. That’s right.
Q. Now, so far as the change being made in June, on
June 10th, the letter had nothing to do with it because it
hadn’t even been received? A. That’s right.
Q. And then about a month later, sometime in July, you
received a letter through the mail? A. Yes.
Q. And then you yourself on August 12th went to Mr.
Smith’s office, didn’t you? A. Yes, sir.
Q- And took the letter that you had written? A. Yes.
—96—
Q. And you are a honor student and were then about
seventeen years old? A. Yes, sir.
Q’ And just one year short of graduating, and you took
h to Mr. Smith yourself, with just your mother’s and your
lather’s names on it, wasn’t it? A. Yes.
656a
Q. And it reads as follows: “Route 1, Box 74-B, Youngs-
ville, N. C., August 12, 1965. Dear Sir: Our daughter,
Margaret Ree Crudup”—that is you, isn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. “Our daughter, Margaret Ree Crudup, has applied to
go to the Youngsville High School of Youngsville, North
Carolina, for the 1965-66 school year. We, her parents
would like for that application to be changed if it is possible
in any way, for her to go back to the school that she has
attended every since her first day in high school. The
school is Riverside Union in Louisburg, North Carolina.
“She is now a Senior and we would prefer her to graduate
from Riverside Union. Thank you kindly! Sincerely yours,
James Crudup and Annie Crudup.” And you yourself toot
that letter to Mr. Smith? A. Yes, sir.
-97-
Q. The gentleman sitting here, the superintendent of
schools? A. Yes.
Q. Why did you want to mislead Mr. Smith?
Mr. Chambers: May I object to the form of that
question.
Mr. Yarborough: The letter did mislead him.
Mr. Chambers: I object to the form of the ques
tion.
Q. (Mr. Yarborough) The letter misled Mr. Smith as to
the reason why you wanted to go to Riverside? A. WeH
I don’t know whether I misled him or not.
Q. Well, it wasn’t the reason that you have just testified
to, is it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, the reasons you wanted to go back to Riverside
then for the 1965-66 school year was because you had been
there every day since your first day in high school, that
Deposition of Margaret Crudup
657a
you are a senior and yon would prefer to graduate from
Riverside Union, that is the reason! A. Yes.
Q. That is the reason you wanted to go back to River-
— 98-
side, wasn’t it! A. Yes, and, too, when I applied for the
Youngsville school that was all misleading.
Q. It was! A. I thought that all the seniors were sup
posed to go up there.
Q. You thought that everybody in that neighborhood had
to go to Youngsville! A. Yes, sir.
Q. So, then, Margaret, you got exactly what you wanted
to do! A. Yes.
Q. I mean they sent you to the school that you wanted
to go to! A. Yes.
Q. And the threat may have worried you all—it probably
did and should—but it had nothing to do with your school
choice, the first choice was made under the stated fact!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the second choice, just what you wanted to do,
go back to graduate from Riverside in Louisburg! A.
Yes.
Q. You knew at the time that it had always been attended
by colored people, had a colored faculty, and all were col
ored people! A. Yes, sir.
— 99—
Q. And you had done very well there! A. Yes.
Q. And you graduated at Riverside Union in June of
1966! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you are planning to enter what college—plan
ning to enter a college! A. Yes, sir.
Q- What college! A. General business.
Q- General business college! A. Durham Business Col
lege.
Deposition of Margaret Crudup
658a
Q. And do yon have any idea who wrote this threatening
letter or note? A. No.
Q. Does your father or your mother have any idea win
wrote this threatening note? A. No.
Q. It was reported, wasn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. And it’s been investigated? A. Yes.
Q. And neither you nor your mother nor your fata
were able to give the investigating officer any idea as to
- 100-
who it might he? A. No, we weren’t.
Q. And the FBI man was there, wasn’t he—the federal
bureau man? A. Yes.
Q. And he talked to you? A. No, he didn’t talk tom
Q. He came and talked to your mother and your father
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was your landlord at that time? A. Haywool
Holmes.
Q. Margaret, how long did your father farm? A. Hi
didn’t farm. He helped him with his crop just one year.
Q. You all were pay hands, as it is called? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Pay hands is a group of people where you work for
different people when they need you? A. We just worked
for him.
Q. At that time your father was working where? A. at
father was working in Raleigh.
Q. And you and your mother, when he needed yon
prime tobacco, house tobacco, or set it, you all worked? A
Yes, sir.
Q. What type of work did your father do in Raleigh
- 101-
A. He was working at the Raleigh Bonded Warehouse.
Q. Where do you all live now? A. At Louisburg, jllSi
above Edward Best High School.
Deposition of Margaret Crudup
k
659a
Deposition of Margaret Crudup
Q. On whose land do you live now? A. W. A. Jones.
Q. Now, you live within just a little ways—when did you
all move there? A. In March 1966.
Q. 1966! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that is just a short distance from Edward Best
School! A. Yes, sir.
Q. In sight of it! A. About a half a mile.
Q. So you went on to Riverside? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Because you wanted to go? A. Yes.
Q. Does your father still work in Raleigh? A. No, he
is farming this year.
Q. With Mr. Jones? A. Yes.
Q. They call him Casey Jones, don’t they? A. Yes, sir.
— 102—
Q. Mr. W. A. Jones is a white man? A. Yes.
Q. And you said, Margaret, that your classes were
smaller at Youngsville? A. Yes.
Q. Well, that was the reason you wanted to go to
Youngsville, and the other reason, because you had been to
Riverside all the time and wanted—like you said in the
letter and wanted to graduate from Riverside? A. If I
bad gone to Riverside, that would have been an advantage.
Q. But if you had a choice, you still wanted to go to
Riverside, just as you put in your letter? A. Yes.
Q- So you could graduate at Riverside as you had been
there all this time? A. Yes.
Q. Had you ever been to Youngsville High School, in the
building? A. No.
Q. How did you know the classes are smaller? A. One
of the girls I worked with said the classes were smaller.
She asked about the class enrollment.
Q- Y o u asked y o u r s e lf o r sh e t o ld y o u ? A . S h e to ld m e .
660a
Deposition of Margaret Crudup
—103-
Q. What was her name? A. Catherine Murphy.
Q. Whose daughter is she? A. George Murphy.
Q. So all you know, she told you and you all compare!
enrollments? A. Yes.
Q. And did you know that Riverside Union High School
is the largest one in the County and has activities such s
the Crown and Scepter and many other things; it hass
band, a football team? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know that in the County system there are only;
two football teams in the system? A. No.
Q. Riverside and Louisburg. It has a basketball teal
Riverside does? A. Yes.
Q. A glee club, a band, and many, many other activities!
going on all the time? A. Yes.
Q. And you joined five or six of them? A. Yes.
Q. And there is even a girl scout group connected wil
the school? A. Yes.
_10b
Q. Did you attend the girl scout meetings during the
school hours? A. Yes.
Q. During the school hours? Or did you have to com
back? A. During the school hours.
Q. Now, who were the two girls that you said you thought
were going to change—Jeffries and somebody? A. Fannie
Monroe and Agnes Jeffries.
Q. What schools did they go to last year? A. River-
side.
Q. Were they seniors? A. Yes.
Q. So far as you know they didn’t apply for any other
school, did they? A. Yes, they applied but they with
drew.
661a
Q. Fannie Monroe and Agnes Jeffries'? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did they withdraw for the same reason—they
found out they didn’t have to go there? A. I don’t know.
Q. You don’t know why they withdrew? A. No.
Q. Are they up here as witnesses, that you know of?
A. No, they aren’t.
—105—
Q. Now, Fannie Monroe didn’t get promoted to the
twelfth grade, did she? A. She was promoted but she
didn’t graduate?
Q. She didn’t graduate? A. Yes.
Q. Her work was bad, or what was the trouble? A. I
don’t know.
Q. She continued in school? A. No, she quit the last
semester, just about three weeks before the last—
Q. Have you ever talked to a man by the name of B. B.
Felder about this? A. No, I don’t know him.
Q. Is your father or your mother here ? A. My mother.
But she is not a witness.
Mr. Schwelb: She is not uder subpoena.
Q. (Mr. Yarborough) But she is here? A. Yes.
Q. Now you said you were afraid of being mistreated?
A. Yes.
Q. Where ? A. What did you say ?
Q.You say you are afraid of being mistreated? A. Yes.
Q- Now, did you tell Mr. Smith that? A. No, I didn’t.
—106—
Q. You went into the country schools office building and
talked to Mr. Warren Smith himself, didn’t you, you handed
the letter to him and had an opportunity to talk with him,
that s right, isn’t it ? A. I did, but I just gave him the let-
Deposition of Margaret Crudup
662a
ter and he read it and he said that he would see—you would
have a meeting of some kind and he would let me know.
Q. You did talk to him that much? A. Yes.
Q. And you went right into the school office and you were
not afraid over there, were you? A. Do what?
Q. You were not afraid in the school office, nobody fright
ened you over there—were you? A. No, sir.
Q. You didn’t mention anything about smaller classes or
anything about being mistreated, did you? A. No, sir.
Q. And you thanked him and went on your way? A.
Yes.
Q. And he was nice and polite to you, wasn’t he? A.
Yes.
Q. So far as you know has anybody ever found out who
wrote that letter? A. Which one?
—107—
Q. The threatening letter. A. No, they haven’t.
Q. Your mother and your father agreed to that letter
that you wrote to Mr. Smith in your handwriting and they
signed it? A. Yes.
Q. That was all right with them? A. Yes.
Q. And you? A. Yes.
Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Now, Margaret, Mr. Yarborough was talking about
the football team at Riverside. Do you play football? A.
No.
Q. He also—Mr. Yarborough also made the point that
you acknowledged that Riverside was the school that you
wanted to go to. If you hadn’t felt that you might be mis
treated at Youngsville, which school would you have wanted
to go to?
Deposition of Margaret Crudup
663a
Mr. Yarborough: I object to the form.
A. Youngsville, if I thought that I would have been treated
as I was at Riverside, I would have preferred it.
Mr. Schwelb: No further questions.
—108—
Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. I will ask you: who did you think was going to mis
treat you! Did you think that Mr. Smith was going to mis
treat you? A. No. I didn’t have any special person.
Q. Why did you think you might be mistreated at
Youngsville? A. Because no Negro had ever been up
there, and I thought that maybe they would try to mistreat
you.
Q. You didn’t want to be the first one, you were unknown
you got along with white people, the girl, Catherine
Murphy, very fine ? A. Yes.
Q. And you talked with her about your school work? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And got along fine? A. Yes.
Q. You never had any trouble with any of them? A.
Yes, sir.
Q- I say you never had any trouble with any of them?
A. No.
Q. How old was Catherine Murphy? A. Eighteen.
Q. She graduated this year? A. Yes.
—109—
Q. So you weren’t—didn’t think she was going to mis
treat you, did you? A. No.
Q- The Murphy area was a white settlement, wasn’t it?
A. Yes.
Deposition of Margaret Crudup
664a
Q. And possibly those people went to the other school!
A. Yes.
Q. And you knew them? A. Yes.
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all.
Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Margaret, do you watch television sometime, or read
the newspaper? A. Yes.
Q. Have you ever read about integration problems in
other states? A. Yes.
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form. I don’t
think it is proper to come back on my re-cross.
Q. (Mr. Schwelb) Well, have you ever seen a television
or newspaper where the children who were first desegregat
ing formerly white schools in the south had trouble in
there? A. Yes, on television.
- 110-
Q. What have you seen on television? A. The trouble
that they had in Mississippi or places like that. I didn’t
know whether anything like that would happen or not.
Q. In Franklin County, North Carolina, was it usual for
Negroes to be associating or attending white schools or as
sociating?
Mr. Tucker: Object to the form of that question.
A. No, it wasn’t usual.
Q. (Mr. Schwelb) And when you said you were afraid
of being mistreated, did you know that— A. No, I didnt.
Deposition of Margaret Crudup
665a
Q. You didn’t what? A. I didn’t know that I would be
mistreated.
Q. Had you seen these television programs and read
the newspapers before that? A. Yes.
Mr. Schwelb: No further questions.
Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. You had seen a lot of trouble on television in north
ern cities, New York and other places? A. Yes.
Q. And you look at television almost every night? A.
Yes.
— Ill—
Q. And you see whatever news, whatever they put on in
most places? A. Yes.
Q. At schools and other places? A. Yes.
Q. And most recently places in northern cities, Chicago,
and New York? A. Yes.
Q. And were you afraid that any of those white girls or
boys that lived on Murphy Road where you lived were going
to mistreat you? A. Not specially on the road where I
lived, but I, you know, I didn’t think of whom might be
mistreating you; I thought just maybe someone would.
Q. You didn’t think anybody would at the school? A.
I—some of the kids or some of their parents.
Q. I’m talking about the school teachers or anybody? A.
No.
Q. How far do you live from Catherine Murphy? A.
Before I moved they used to stay right across the road
from me. We moved up to Haywood Holmes’ and I stayed
about three miles from them.
Deposition of Margaret Crudup
666a
Q. Is Mr. Holmes a white man or colored man? A,
White.
Q. Your father rented a house? A. Yes.
— 112-
Q. And this year he changed and went to Mr. W. A
Jones and went on quarter shares or half shares? A. Half
shares.
Q. And he quit his job in Raleigh and went back to farm
ing? A. Yes.
Q. And you moved down there with him? A. Yes.
Q. And the Franklin County Board of Education always
rode you right to the door, on the bus? A. Yes.
Q. You rode the school busses? A. Yes.
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all.
(Witness excused.)
Deposition of Margaret Crudup
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669a
670a
Deposition of James T. Anderson
—113—
J a m e s T. A n d e r s o n Being first duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows:
Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. "Will you state your name, your address, and your
race, please, sir? A. James T. Anderson, Route 4, Louis-
burg, my address. I am a Negro.
Q. How long have you lived in Franklin County? A.
Practically all my life. For two years after the service and
about six months I lived in New Jersey.
Q. What is your occupation, Mr. Anderson? A. I am a
barber by trade.
Q. You spend a good portion of your time doing anything
else but barbering at the present time? A. I am in school,
also.
Q. What are you studying? A. I am majoring in a
combination of history and government.
Q. Trying to get a bachelors degree? A. Yes.
Q. At what university? A. St. Augustine College, here
in Raleigh.
Q. You are both working and going to school at the
-114-
same time? A. Yes.
Q. Are you married? A. Yes.
Q. How old are you? A. 33.
Q. Do you have a family? A. Yes, I do.
Q. What family do you have? A. My wife and one
daughter.
Q. Over the past few years have you been active in any
organizations the goal of which is to secure civil rights
for Negroes? A. Yes, I have been active in NAACP.
671a
Q. What have you been doing, your activity in NAACP?
A. In NAACP, until I started to school, I was chairman
of the legal redress committee.
Q. What was the function of the legal redress committee!
A. The legal redres committee was to attend courts when
there were civil rights cases being heard to bring back
information, just what went on in court, and to find out if
we needed to take further steps to secure additional lawyers,
and so forth.
Q. Do you believe in resolution of the matters through
— 115—
the court!
Mr. Yarborough: Objection to the form of the
question.
By Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Do you believe in trying to resolve civil rights con
troversies through the court! A. Yes.
Q. Now, when you were a member, let me ask you this,
did you have any particular office with this grievance com
mittee?
Deposition of James T. Anderson
Mr. Yarborough: He didn’t say he was a member
of the grievance committee.
A. I was chairman of the legal redress committee.
By Mr. Schwelb:
Q- You were chairman of the legal redress and grievance
committee, is that correct? A. No, not the grievance com
mittee at all.
672a
Q. Did you have anything to do with the grievance com
mittee? A. No.
Q. Now, in connection with your work in the legal redress
committee did you ever have any occasion to have contact
with the County Board of Commissioners? A. Yes, twice,
Q. Tell us about those contacts, please. A. The first
time Mr. Willie Neal, Claude Dunstan and I, we met mil
-116-
the County Commissioners and asked them to remove tie
discriminatory sign in the courthouse. They promised®
that they would talk about it and see just what they could
do.
Q. When was this, by the way? A. That was approxi
mately two years ago I believe.
Q. So up until 1964 they still had discriminatory signs
in the courthouse? A. Yes. And the second time they
met with us they told us that the signs would be removed,
and they removed the signs from the water fountains and
painted over the signs on the bathroom doors of the court
house.
Q. Now, when was the second contact that you had with
them? A. That was the second contact.
Q. I see. Do you recall back in August 1965 there vs*
some protest by some Negro groups regarding voter regis
tration procedures? A. Yes, I do.
Q. What were those protests? A. The protests waste
get the registration books open so that more of our peopl®
might get on the books to register.
Q. Now, in connection with this do you know whether
—117"
there was any picketing? A . Yes, there was picketing.
Q. Do you recall a young lady called Michelle Hutch®
son? A. Yes, I do.
Deposition of James T. Anderson
673a
Q. Do you know of any incident that happened to her?
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form of the
question.
By Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Did you learn about any incident involving Mrs.
Michelle Hutchinson and did you take any action? A. I
learned of the incident involving Miss Hutchinson.
Q. What was the incident you learned about? A. That
she had been kicked by some fellow.
Q. What race was the fellow? A. White.
Q. What, if anything, did you do about it? A. Well, I
didn’t take any particular action myself. I was asked by
Eeverend Dunstan and Michelle Hutchinson to go with
them to the police station to get warrants drawn up for
that particular man.
Q. Did you do that? A. Yes, I did.
— 118—
Q- And did you succeed in your endeavor? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know, and if you don’t know, so state—whether
the person who allegedly kicked Mrs. Hutchinson was ever
punished for it? A. I don’t know.
Q. By the way, is Miss Michelle Hutchinson a civil
rights worker? A. Yes, she is.
Q. Is she white or Negro? A. Negro.
Q- Did anything out of the ordinary happen to you or
J'Our family after you took this step? A. Yes. On the
night of the very same day, about quarter to eleven that
night, my family and I had gone to bed and I heard some
0 Jeet strike the house. Being half asleep I guess, I got
upland went to the window, to the east window, and looked
1U an(' ̂ didn’t see anything so I went back through
Deposition of James T. Anderson
674a
the bedroom. I went back—I went out of the bedroom into
the bathroom, and just as I parted—just as I parted the
drapes to look out of the window a terrific explosion with
a large ball of fire exploded. It seemed at that time right
in front of my face. Debris and everything hit up against
the screen. So I told my wife to take the baby and get
-119-
on the floor, and I fell down on the floor, crawled to the
telephone and called the operator and asked the operator
to get me the sheriff’s department.
Q. Did you afterwards inspect the damage that was
done by this explosion? A. Yes, I did.
Q. Would you describe it, please? A. It was a hole in
the back yard about ten feet from the house, a hole in the
ground, I ’d say, from six to ten inches deep. I didn’t
measure the hole. And about eighteen inches in diameter
in the back yard and with something that looked like
plaster paris had crumbled around it, you know, around
the center of the explosion.
Q. Now, you say the sheriff came, did he? A. Yes, he
did.
Q. Was he polite to you? A. Yes, he was polite.
Q. Did he apprehend the person who did it as far as
you know? A. Not that I know of.
Q. Has anyone else apprehended the person who did it?
A. Not that I know of.
— 120-
Q. Do you know who did it? A. No, I don’t.
Q. You say you both work in a barber shop and you go
to college, I think you testified? A. Yes.
Q. Are your wife and child at home a good portion of the
time ? A. On Friday nights and Saturday nights.
Deposition of James T. Anderson
675a
Q. What, if any, effect did this bombing have, or this
explosion, have on yonr peace of mind in connection with
them? A. Well, quite a bit. First off, I lost about thirty
pounds worrying about their safety and also mine. This
type of fear gives you—you are afraid to go to sleep.
Every time a car slowed down, you get up and go to the
window, and several nights we stayed over to my father’s,
and it’s just a constant fear now. When a car slows up at
night, I still have a tendency to wake up and go to the
window.
Q. Now, Mr. Anderson, in your opinion would this ex
plosion have taken place had you not engaged in this civil
rights you described?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
Mr. Tucker: Object to the form.
A. I don’t believe so.
—121—
By Mr. Schwelb:
Q- You don’t have any children in school yourself, do
yon? A. No.
Q- You inform yourself about civil rights developments,
do you not, sir? A. Yes, sir.
Q. State whether or not you know of any petitions signed
y white people against school integration in the county?
Y I don’t know of any.
Mr. Schwelb: I’d like to introduce into evidence,
P ©nse, an article from The FranJclin Times, August
31, 1965, which relates to this.
I have no further questions of this witness.
Mr. Chambers: I have no questions.
Deposition of James T. Anderson
676a
Mr. Schwelb: I ask the reporter to mark this
please as Government’s Exhibit 1 to this deposition.
(Marked for identification)
Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Anderson, you operate a barber shop in Louis-
burg? A. Yes, I do.
— 122-
Q. About a half a block or less than a half a block from
the courthouse? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Right on Main Street? A. Yes.
Q. How long have you run that shop ? A. Since Septem
ber 1958.
Q. And you cater mainly to colored trade, don’t you!
A. That’s right.
Q. You don’t make any bones about it, you say it is
operated for colored people? A. Yes. I serve what whites
come in.
Q. But it is mainly colored? A. Mostly colored.
Q. And you have served whites? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you get along with them fine? A. Yes.
Q. They came in because they wanted to? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had the choice of coming in or going somewhere
else? A. Yes.
Q. And there are several barber shops in town? A.
Yes.
Q . And more than one barber shop operated by colored
people? A. Yes.
—123—
Q. George Washington Dunstan operates one? A. Yes.
Q. And maybe others. And how long have you been a
member of the NAACP? A. About five years I imagine.
Deposition of James T. Anderson
677a
Q. Now, Mr. Anderson, sometime prior to 1964 you say
you appeared before the County Commissioners, you and
Willie Neal, and who was the other—Dunstan? A. Dun-
stan, that’s right.
Q. What is his name? A. Claude L. Dunstan.
Q. Is he S. G. Dunstan’s son? A. Yes.
Q What does he do, run a barber shop in Franklinton ?
A. Yes.
Q. Anyhow, the signs that were there were removed and
are now gone? A. Yes.
Q. And have not been replaced? A. That’s right.
Q. And that is what you accomplished in those two meet
ings, and they did do it? A. That’s right.
—124—
Q. And you spoke about the 1965—in August 1965 about
this voter registration protest? A. Yes, I spoke about
that.
Q. Now, are you active in that? A. I was not active
in the voter registration, no.
Q- That was in August 1965 ? A. That’s right.
Q- Now, in approximately the first of November, 1965,
an election was scheduled to be held, wasn’t it? A. That’s
right.
Q- On a bond issue? A. Yes.
Q- A road bond issue? A. Eoad bond issue.
Q- And are you registered and vote? A. Yes.
Q' And have been for some number of years? A. Yes,
I have.
Q- And you, of course, know that the law requires the
o s to open four or five weeks before the election, every
election? A. Yes.
Q- Arid so this protest was trying to get the books open
» a month or so earlier? A. That’s right.
Deposition of James T. Anderson
678a
Deposition of James T. Anderson
—125-
Q. Do you know how many did register when it did op®
at the normal time? A. Very few I gather, from what I
read in the paper.
Q. Very few did register? A. Yes.
Q. And the protest marches and things lasted three oi
four weeks, didn’t they? A. Yes, I believe they did. Some
thing like that.
Q. And had organized marches of colored people througl:
the streets and the police moved the traffic on one or more
occasions so they could march in the street on the court
house square? A. I don’t know.
Q. They did have some marches? A. Yes.
Q. Through the streets, from the Masonic Hall? A. Yes,
I remember seeing that.
Q. Had several of them? A. Yes, they had more than
one, I remember that.
Q. And police protection was provided? A. Yes,
Q. Traffice was blocked? A. Yes, I imagine. Let®
clarify the statement. I was not in the march. I was work
ing, so I only saw it as it passed the barber shop.
— 126-
Q. And so far as you know it was without incident! A
Yes, as far as I know.
Q. And they went on to the courthouse square and tad
speeches and songs and other things; you could hear then
in your barber shop if you opened the door? A. Yes, I
could hear the songs. I couldn’t hear the speeches.
Q. That is what we call right in the middle of the To"1
of Louisburg? A. Yes.
Q. Of course, you live there and I do and know. A.
answer)
Q. And so after all of those protests, marches, m eetin g -'
679a
and picketing, didn’t they march around the courthouse,
picketing and carrying signs? A. I wouldn’t say they
marched around it. I know they marched.
Q. They had signs? A. Yes, they had signs.
Q. Impatient, in a hurry to get them open at once, weren’t
they? A. I don’t know if they were in a hurry.
Q. You knew they were going to open in a month or so,
didn’t you? A. Yes, I did, I knew that.
—127—
Q. You knew that, but they didn’t want to wait that long,
didn’t want to wait, were in a hurry? A. I can’t say what
they wanted to do.
Q. I thought you said the purpose was to get the books
open to get more people to register ? A. That is what I
said. I don’t know whether they were in a hurry or not.
Q. You were in a hurry to get them open earlier? A. I
was in a hurry to get them open more than just on Satur
days, where we would be able to get more of our people on
the books.
Q. It’s open all week, aren’t they? A. The books?
Q. Yes, sir. A. I have never known them to be open but
one day.
Q. Don’t you know the law says it’s open straight
through?
Mr. Chambers: I think the law speaks for itself.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. I’m asking you if you don’t know that once they open
ey stay open until they are closed? A. The only time
|n Franklin County is three Saturdays, I believe it is, prior
to the election in the Spring and in the Fall. They have
never been open to us in the week. Only on Saturday.
Deposition of James T. Anderson
680a
Q. What I mean to say: do you know of anybody that was
ever sent to the polling place to register and was told pal;
he couldn’t vote? A. I don’t know.
Q. Every other time is when you run the registrar dow
and find him.
Mr. Chambers: That is not a question, it is i
statement.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. The law requires the registrar to be at the pollim
place on certain hours on certain Saturdays prior to til
election. Do you know that to be so? A. I don’t knowtM
to be so.
Q. Do you also know it to be so that the law requires tk
books to be open on all days and you have to go to tie
registrar’s place of business or his home on days otto
than Saturday, do you know that to be a law in this state,
the law required in North Carolina? A. I don’t knowtiat
Is that true that we are able to go to the person’s louse
any time during that week? We was told—
(Discussion off record)
—129"
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Anyhow, Mr. Anderson, after—this was the last of
August that you had these voter registration deni op
tions and the books did open so far as you know and very
few registered? A. Very few registered, took advantage
of it.
Q. It wasn’t because they were overcrowded at the
Deposition of James T. Anderson
— 128-
681a
Deposition of James T. Anderson
tration book on Saturday, was it? A. I don’t know. It
was very few registered.
Q. Did yon go up to see? A. No. As I said before, I
was not—I didn’t have anything to do with the voter regis
tration. I knew what was going on but as far as me being
in any authority to say this, that, or the other, I was not in
any authority to say just what—
Q. But when this woman, Hutchison woman, had trouble
they did call on you for assistance? A. They came to my
barber shop.
Q. And you went down and obtained a warrant? A. I
can’t obtain a warrant. I went with her up there to the
police station. May I just make a statement on that part?
Mr. Yarborough: It’s all right with me.
A. I felt very bad on the part of here is a young lady from
another state here in Franklin County. She is kicked on the
street and nothing is done about it, nobody to do anything,
—130—
so when they came and asked me if I would go with them up
to the police department, I said certainly I would, and I
think any other man would do the same thing.
Q. Did you go, and was it right after it happened? A.
I’d say within about two hours.
Q- The same day? A. The same day.
Q. You do know that that same woman from another
state, after she got in Franklin County, she was also ar
rested on a criminal charge? You do know that, don’t you?
A. I heard that.
Q- You said you didn’t know what happened to the case.
Do you know that she never appeared in Recorders Court
to testify against the person for whom she swore out a
682a
warrant? A. Mr. Yarborough, I was in school during that
time and I don’t know whether she appeared or not.
Q. You do know T. T. Clayton, don’t you? A. Yes.
Q. That he is a colored lawyer from Warrenton? A,
That’s right.
Q. Do you know that—you told me that you knew or un
derstood that Michelle Hutchison was arrested on a criminal
-131-
warrant herself—somebody took out a warrant against her.
Do you know that she—that her lawyer, T. T. Clayton,
whom you know, appeared in Superior Court of Franklin
County and entered a plea for that charge and prayer for
judgment was continued? A. I don’t know just what hap
pened in Superior Court. I know it was something hap
pened up there, but I really haven’t heard anybody say that
had any authority on the case that could say really what
happened. I don’t know.
Q. And do you know that the case against the man ac
cused of kicking her was nol prossed because she did not
appear in court as a witness ?
Mr. Chambers: Object to that question.
A. No, I don’t know.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. I ’m talking about that case against the Hutchison girl'
Mr. Anderson, you know many members of the Board of
Education of Franklin County, maybe all of them, don t
you? A. I know some of them.
Q. Are you saying that they or anybody working asa
member of their staff had anything to do with any explo
sion at your house? A. No, I am not saying that. I sad
that I didn’t know who was responsible for it.
Deposition of James T. Anderson
683a
—132—
Q. And you do not now know! A. No, sir, I do not now.
Q. And the sheriff came out there! A. Soon after I
called him.
Q. And you were unable to give him any names of any
suspects! A. That’s right.
Q. And to this date— A. I am still unable.
Q. And that explosion was caused by person or persons
unknown to you! A. That’s correct.
Q. What is your wife’s name! A. Edith A. Anderson.
Q. Does she teach! A. Yes, she does.
Q. Where does she teach! A. Gethsemane High School.
Q. How long has she taught ? A. Where! At Geth
semane!
Q. Yes. A. I believe about four years.
Q. Did she teach in Franklin County prior to that time!
—133—
A. No.
Q. And she has applied for a contract to teach this com
ing year at Gethsemane, hasn’t she! A. Yes.
Q. And she made an application to that school because
she wanted to teach there, didn’t she! A. Yes.
Q. To your knowledge has she ever applied for any other
school in the county! A. Not in Franklin County.
Q. What other county did she teach in before she taught
in Franklin County! A. She taught in Richmond County.
I believe it was beginning in 1953 in Rockingham. She
taught in Wake County. I believe it was beginning in the
fall of 1957.
Q- Well, that is not important, but it is that she sought
the job of teaching at Gethsemane and she was employed
by the Franklin County Board of Education to teach! A.
Yes.
Deposition of James T. Anderson
684a
Q. And she has taught four years ? A. Four, or it might
be five. I don’t recall.
Q. Mr. Anderson, you rent your building in which your
— 134-
barber shop is located from a white person? A. Yes.
Q. And you own your own place— A. I do.
Q. Don’t you? A. Yes.
Q. Your house, own your home? A. Yes.
Q. That is out in a section largely occupied by colored
people, not altogether, but largely occupied by colored peo
ple, in a residential section? A. Yes.
Q. Quite a few homes out there? A. Yes, it is.
Q. Most of those subdivisions on land that at one time
Dollie Massenburg once owned? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He is the father of Mrs. S. T. Dunsten? A. Yes, lie
is.
Q. And Mrs. Otis Gill and Mrs. Willie Brodie? A. Yes,
Q. And was your wife—she was not a Massenburg, was
she? A. No, she wasn’t.
—135-
Q. Who was she—a Franklin County name? A. Yes,
Austin. Her father was Mr. Harvey Austin, worked at tie
college for thirty-seven years, I believe.
Q. For many years? A. Yes.
Q. His home is right close to where Mr. Cecil Macon
lives? A. Yes.
Q. And right close to where Reverend S. G. Dunst®
lives? A. That’s correct.
Q. The only real connection you have with the school
system of Franklin County at the moment is that y°ur
wife for four or five years has been teaching in the school
system? A. That’s correct.
Deposition of James T. Anderson
685a
Q. And your child is not yet old enough to go to school!
A. That’s right.
Q. And your wife teaches at the school for which she ap
plied for a position and was elected! A. That’s right.
Q. And you are here testifying in a case brought by Otis
Gill and others against the Franklin County Board of Ed-
—136—
ucation, in which the government has intervened, the De
partment of Justice, hut you have no complaint at all about
the Franklin County Board of Education in your own ca
pacity, have you! A. Not in my own capacity, no.
Q. And you stated in your opinion that this blast—it
must have resulted from civil rights activities! A. I said
that in my opinion it was directly from my going to the
police department office and assisting in obtaining the war
rant.
Q. And you made a statement awhile ago that this lady
from outside of the state being kicked—and you deplored
it, and I assure I do, but do you also deplore a person tak
ing out a warrant, charging someone with a crime and then
failing to appear in court as a witness!
Mr.Chambers: We object to the form of the ques
tion.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q- Do you deplore someone taking out a warrant, citing
someone on a warrant, and failing to appear in court to
testify! A. Yes, in a way.
Q. And do you deplore—strike that question, please. If
a Pers°n is charged with a crime—
Mr. Chambers: Obect to the form of the question.
Deposition of James T. Anderson
686a
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. And is cited to court, and then appears in court with
her lawyer and pleads guilty to that crime, that indicates
that that person is guilty, wouldn’t you think?
Mr. Chambers: Wait a minute—wait a minute,
I ’d like to say for the record that this question im
poses much more than this witness should be called
upon to answer.
(Discussion off record)
Mr. Yarborough: I withdraw the question.
Mr. Chambers: I have no questions.
Examination by Mr. Schwelb :
Q. Mr. Yarborough asked you about your wife and about
whether she had ever applied to teach at a predominantly
white school. Let me ask you this: do you know—strike
that. Do you have the impression that Negro teachers were
permitted to teach in white schools recently?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form of the ques
tion.
By Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Have Negro teachers so far as you know been per
mitted to teach in white schools? A. Not that I know of,
— 138-
Q. Has your wife ever suggested that she has applied to
a white school? A. Not that I know of.
Q. Do you know whether she would be willing to teach at
a white school if she had the opportunity, if you know? A-
Deposition of James T. Anderson
— 137—
687a
I don’t think it would make any difference to her as long as
she is happy. I don’t think it would make any difference.
Q. Do you think she would be willing to accept an assign
ment?
Deposition of James T. Anderson
Mr. Yarborough: We object.
By Mr. Schwelb:
Q. As far as you know she would be willing to teach at a
predominantly white school? A. I do not know if she
would be willing to. I have heard her say that it didn’t
make any difference at which school she worked.
Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. To your knowledge have Negro teachers been advised
that they could teach at any other schools other than Negro
schools in Franklin County? A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. You were asked if you had any personal concern with
this litigation and you answered that you did not, is that
—139—
correct? A. I do not.
Q. You answered that you were on the legal redress com
mittee? A. Yes.
Q. And you were a member of that committee for five
years? A. No, I said I had been with NAACP for five
years.
Q. Are you familiar with the petition to the school board
in 1962? A. No, sir.
Q. Are you familiar with the petition presented to the
school board in 1965? A. No, I am not familiar with it to
e that I know exactly what was on it, no more than
know what I read in the paper. I got a lot of my informa-
b°n from there.
688a
Q. Do you know about the 1964 petition presented toll
school hoard? A. No.
Mr. Chambers: I have no further questions,
Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Anderson, about your wife teaching, or wk
she wants to teach, insofar as the Franklin County Boil
-1
of Education she is teaching at the place for which she®
plied to teach? A. That’s right. May I make a state®:
there off the record?
Mr. Schwelb: Is it responsive to the question:
Deposition of James T. Anderson
A. No.
Mr. Yarborough: We can make it off
you want.
Mr. Schwelb: Let’s go off the record
statement off the record and if it is someth)
somebody thinks ought to be in, we will
about it later.
(Discussion off record)
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all. Thank you
Mr. Schwelb: Mr. Anderson, that’s a
tions I have.
Witness excused.
M
Racial
; A September 7th hearing In
Franklin County Recorder’ s
Court has been set In the cases
of a white woman and man and
a Negro woman charged In a
, racial Incident on the streets
o f Loulsburg last Thursday af
ternoon.
Mrs. Frances Duke Is charged
; with destroying private proper
! ty as a result of reportedly
tearing some placards being
carried by Negro demons
strators parading around the
County Courthouse. Woodrow
Medlin, Loulsburg service sta
tion operator, Is faced with two
charges of assault growing out
! of the incident.
Michele Hutchinson, n /f, a
Southern Christian Leadership
Conference civil rights worker,
is charged with blocking traffic
when she lay on the hood of
an automobile during the scuf
fle. Medlin is free under
$400 bond, and the two women
are free.<usdsr -bonds of $200
each.
The town council, after con-
Incidents
(Continued from page 1)
unidentified Negro man "cam e
;from nowhere” and cut Phillip
Knott, local white man, while
ferrlng Friday afternoon,!Knott was sitting In his car.
granted a parade permit to lo - ; Charles RogerStailings, n /m /
cal Negroes for a Friday nightjlfi, of South Main St. here,
march. About 82 Negroes too^; is charged with theft of an au-
part in a peaceful prayer vigi:
at the courthouse. There werd involved
very few spectators on the
streets In contrast to an earlier
march a few weeks
hundreds gathered.
tomobile which was reportedly
in the Saturday night
incident. Stallings wrecked the
v^iicle Monday night and was
ago when treated at the local hospital.
He is also charged with driving
Sheriff Joseph W. Champion under the influence, without a
reports a puzzling bombing a< license and careless and reck
less driving.
Auxiliary policemen were on
duty for last Friday night's Ne
gro demonstration, but ther'e
were no incidents reported.
the home of James T. Ander
son five miles east of Louis-
burg in what is called Mas
senburg Town, a Negro settle
ment. The explosive is believec
to have been thrown from a car Feelings have been running high
and to have rolled off the roo:
of the house and exploded ii
the yard. No damage was re
ported.
A young Loulsburg white mai
was painfully cut last Satur
day night in what was termed
race incident when he ap
proached a Negro acquaintance
on South Main Street here. An:'
(See INCIDENTS Page 8)
in the area since the voter*
rights demonstrations begarf
here about three weeks ago fo il
lowing a street walk and ralfir
by the Ku Klux Klan.
THE FRANKLIN TIMES
Louisburg, N. C.
8/31/65
Page 1
, ■ \ „■ ij _u ...
■jBwn..y/yjSJfjjwV' ,
689a
Government’s Exhibit 1
Deposition of Joseph Henry Branch
—141-
J o s e p h H e n r y B r a n c h , being first duly sworn, was ex
amined and testified as follows:
Examination toy Mr. Schwelb :
Q. Would yon state your name and your address and
your race for tbe record, please, Mr. Branch—loud and
clear. A. My name is Joseph Henry Branch, and I sign it
Joe Branch.
Q. Where do you live, Mr. Branch? A. 813 Kenmore
Avenue, Louishurg, Franklin County.
Q. Are you a Negro, Mr. Branch? A. Negro, that’s right,
Q. Are you married? A. Yes, I is married.
Q. Do you have children? A. I have a grandchild.
Q. You have a grandchild. Is his name Harry Branch!
A. Harry Branch.
Q. Where do you work, Mr. Branch? A. Well, I wort
now.
Q. Pardon? A. Yes, work for Buff aloe Battery, Raleigh
Q. Raleigh, North Carolina, and what do you do there!
A. Do body work, paint.
—142-
Q. Now, Mr. Branch, does Harry Branch live with you!
A. Yes, sir, all his life.
Q. He has lived with you all his life? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, do you remember hack in the spring of last yeai
that school children were given freedom of choice to
school they would apply to? A. Yes.
691a
Q. Before that did all the white children go to the white
school and the Negro children go to the Negro school? A.
Before then they went to-—the white went to the white
school and all the Negro children went to the colored.
Q. Now, do you recall to what school application was
made for your grandson Harry Branch originally? A.
Well, my wife signed—he wanted to go to the white school.
My wife signed him up to go to the white school.
Q. Which white school was that? A. Well, I always
called it Mills High School. I think it is Louisburg High
now.
Q. Louisburg High School in Louisburg. You live in the
city limits of Louisburg, don’t you? A. Yes, sir.
—143—
Q. What grade was he going into, do you remember?
A. He was going into the eighth.
Q- Now, answer this only if you know the answer, Mr.
Branch. Do you know whether that was one of the four
grades that was supposed to be desegregated? A. I
■wouldn’t say.
Q- Now, Mr. Branch, after your grandson was signed up
for the Louisburg High School, did you have occasion to
withdraw his name and ask that he be reassigned to River
side? A. Well, Mr. Ball—
Q- Well, wait a minute. Did you do that, did you with
draw his name ? A. I withdrew his name.
Q. Why did you do that? A. Mr. Ball asked me, “Who
is Harry Branch?” I said, “It’s my little grandson, I rec-
k°n- He said, “Did you sign up for him to go to a white
school!” and I said, “No, my wife signed him.”
Q- What was his name? A. Mr. Horace Ball.
Q. Mr. Horace Ball, is he a white man or Negro? A.
White man.
Deposition of Joseph Henry Branch
692a
Q. What relation is he to you? A. I was employed wtili
him.
Q. He is your employer? A. I was employed with him
at that time.
Q. You told him your wife had signed him up? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. What did you do after that? A. He said who give
his address and I said, “My wife must have gave it,” tie
address that I was working at, and he told me, “I wish you
would take it off,” said because the Klan might blow up his
building.
Q. That the Klan might blow up his building, is that
correct, Mr. Branch? A. Yes, sir. I mean take the address
off.
Q. He asked you to take the employer’s address of;
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you put his employer’s address on there-yo®
employer’s address on there? A. No, I didn’t. I didn t put
nothing on no papers at all. My wife did all the signing.
Q. Now, Mr. Branch, do you know James Cheek? A
Yes, I know him.
Q. Do you know of anything—do you know whether W
bov went to the white school? A. I don’t know it person-
J —145-
ally, but I heard he went to the white school.
Q. Did you hear of anything happening to Mr. Chee.
A. I heard somebody put some kerosene in the well
Q. Did you hear of anything that ever happened up»
Moulton? A. I heard somebody shot into somebo"
house, but I don’t know who it was.
Q. Now, are you pretty well known in Franklin Oou®.
as far as you know? A. Everybody in Franklin Coun,
Deposition of Joseph Henry Branch
—144—
693a
knows me. Apparently everybody. I would say ninety per
cent of the people know me in Franklin County.
Q. How old are you! A. Fifty-two.
Q. Have you lived in Franklin County all your life? A.
Born in 1913 and lived there all my life.
Q. The fact that your being well known, did that have
anything to do with it?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
Q. (Mr. Schwelb) Did the fact that you were well known
have anything to do what happened, withdrawing your
grandson? A. It did.
Q. Tell us about it? A. I felt like if I hadn’t withdrawn,
—146—
everybody knowing me—because everybody knows me in
the County.
Mr. Schwelb: I have no further questions.
Mr. Chambers: I have no questions.
Examination by Mr. Yarborough :
Q. Mr. Branch, this boy Harvey is your grandson? A.
Yes.
Q. And he’s been living with you ever since he was born,
soon after he was born? A. That’s right. His father died
with sugar diabetes when he was about three years old.
Q. You’ve had him ever since then? A. Yes.
Q- And he is not your son? A. No, sir.
Q1 You haven’t ever adopted him? A. I have never
adopted him. I take care of him all my life.
Q- You never adopted him and never been over to the
courthouse? A. No.
Deposition of Joseph Henry Branch
694a
Q. You have had him all the time, just like you say-lf
know that myself—hut you are not a legal guardian? j
-147-
I am not a legal guardian, but I have took care of liin
ever since he’s been in the world, and took care of his dal;
and took care of him ever since his daddy died, and befoul
he died.
Q. And you do work right there in Louisburg f A. Ie&
sir.
Q. And most of the time worked with white people? A
Yes.
Q. And this form—is this the form. Look at it and set,
if that is the form that was signed. A. This is my wife'll
handwriting.
Q. And is your name signed— A. My name is not oil
there—my wife’s name.
Q. What is that under your wife’s name? A. Myna®:
Q. That is signed, your name? A. Yes, that’s right,
Q. And I will ask you if it doesn’t state there it was th
father and mother that signed it? A. That is not IJ
handwriting.
Q. It is your wife’s handwriting, isn’t it? A. It is my
wife’s handwriting.
Q. And that is the application that was made for h®
to move from the Riverside school to Louisburg
School, isn’t it? A. Yes.
—148-
Q. And it states on there that Mrs. Lilia Branch is tl«
child’s mother? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Mr. Joseph Henry Branch is the child’s fatl®'
A. He is my grandson.
Q. You are his grandfather; it is your grandchild. It14
Deposition of Joseph Henry Branch
695a
not the father and mother on there so it was wrong to
start with, wasn’t it—the wrong information?
Mr. Chambers: Wait a minnte now. We have to
object to the form of the question.
Mr. Yarborough (To Witness): Go ahead and an
swer.
Mr. Schwelb: Wait a minute. I think that this
thing was not written by the witness.
Mr. Yarborough: He said his wife wrote it.
Mr. Schwelb: That’s right, his wife wrote it and
signed his name.
(Discussion off record.)
Q. (Mr. Yarborough) Mr. Branch, the statement on here
that Mrs. Lilia Branch, who is your wife who signed this,
you say, is the mother of Harvey Branch is not correct?
A. It is not correct, but now who would be to sign it? His
—149—
daddy is dead and his mother is not at home.
Q. Mr. Branch, I will ask you this: that your name,
Joseph Henry Branch, appearing on here, showing you as
the father is not correct, is that right? A. That’s right.
Q. And your grandchild was applying to enter the eighth
grade? A. I imagine so.
Q. And you knew at the time that the eighth grade was
not a freedom of choice grade? A. Just to be frank with
yon, I didn’t know.
Q- Did you make any effort to find out? A. I didn’t, but
my wife probably did.
Q' Is she here today? A. No, she is not.
Q- Is she summonsed to be here?
Deposition of Joseph Henry Branch
696a
Mr. Schwelb: I can answer that. She has notks
summonsed by the plaintiff-intervenor.
Q. (Mr. Yarborough) Now, on this form, Mr. Brand,
where it has address of the father, I will ask you if i!
doesn’t state here the father’s address is 609 North Bicbll
Boulevard! A. She might—
Q. Look on there and see.
-15k
Mr. Schwelb: Mr. Yarborough, would it sui
that I can see it.
Mr. Yarborough: Just get in the record that!
address is—
Mr. Schwelb: May the record show in questioi
three: the father’s name is spelled out, Joseplj
Henry Branch. Occupation, body work. Address,
609 North Bickett Boulevard.
By Mr. Yarborough :
Q. Mr. Branch, your wife put on this form application
that the child resided with the grandparents, and that was
right, wasn’t it! A. That's right. Been with us all Ks
life.
Q. I say that is correct! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then it showed that you, Joseph Henry Brand,
was the father and Lilia Branch was the mother? A. I
she’s got it on there.
Q. And it showed the child resided with the grandparent
at 813 Kenmore Avenue, Louisburg? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schwelb: We contend it is not correct?
A. It is not correct. I don’t live over there. I woA 011
North Bickett Boulevard.
Deposition of Joseph Henry Branch
697a
Deposition of Joseph Henry Branch
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Now, Mr. Ball said he didn’t want you putting his
- 1 5 1 -
address down as your address! A. Yes, sir. “Mr. Joe,”
he says, “who is Harvey Branch?” and I says, “Harvey
Branch is my little grandson I reckon.” I was busy work
ing and I wasn’t even thinking about it. I said, “Harvey
Branch is my little grandson I reckon.” And he said, “Did
yon sign him to go up to a white school?” and I said, “No,
Lilia signed it.” I call my wife Lilia. I said, “She signed
it.” He said, “Well, who gave my address?” and I said,
“She must have give the address.” I was working. And
that is how she give the address. And he said, “I wish
you would tell her to take my address off.”
Q. I understand all of that, but he told you that he
wanted you to take it off? A. Take the address off.
Q. But instead of taking the address off you wrote or
signed a leter to Mr. Smith, here, saying that you wanted
the child to stay in Riverside? A. That’s right, that’s
right.
Q. Isn’t that right? A. That’s right, because—
Q. And look at this paper.
Mr. Chambers: Let him answer.
-152-
A. Just as he was scared of them blowing up his building,
I was scared of them blowing up my house.
Q. You were afraid who was going to blow up your
building? A. Anybody might.
Q. How did you think if you put his address on it at
is building, howr do you think they were going to blow
UP your building if you pat your address up at his building?
698a
A. I haven’t never had an address on North Bickett Boult1
vard.
Q. You put it on here as North Bickett Boulevard! A
I didn’t do it.
Q. Your wife did? A. She put the address on there,
Q. It shows your address as North Bickett Boulevard!
A. The address where I was working at.
Q. Does it say that on here? A. That is the address 11
was working.
Q. Mr. Ball told you that he wanted you to take his
address off? A. Yes, sir, that’s right.
Q. But instead of doing that you took the child and put
him back in Biverside? A. That’s right.
—153-
Q. Is that correct? A. That’s right.
Q. Mr. Ball told you that all he wanted you to do w
go over and change the address, that is all he wanted you
to do? A. That’s right.
Mr. Chambers: Let him answer.
Mr. Schwelb: I want him to be able to complete
his answer to the questions.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. What was the answer, Joe? A. He told me he wanted
me to tell Lilia to take the address, his address, off of tie
paper that she filled out, and so I didn’t take it off ngM
then. I waited about two or three weeks before I take it
off, and I went home and I said to Lilia, “I think it is test
to take his address off.”
Q. When did Mr. Ball tell you, do you remember tie
day or the month? A. I don’t remember the day or tie
month.
Deposition of Joseph Henry Branch
699a
Q. Was it after it had come oat in the paper? A. It was
before it come oat in the paper.
Q. How long before? A. I woaldn’t have no idea.
Q. And yoa told Mr. Ball sometime after that, didn’t
you, that yoa were going to pat yoar boy back in Riverside ?
—154—
A. Sure. I told him—I said I was going to pat him in River
side or I might even send him to New York.
Q. And yoa did? A. I pat him back in Riverside.
Q. And somebody wrote a note for yoa to sign, didn’t
they? A. Yes, that’s right.
Q. And Mr. Ball took it to the snperintendent ? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And that is yoar name on that, yoar handwriting?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that is—what is the date on that? A. It’s the
tenth of June, isn’t it?
Q. Mr. Branch, this past year what grade was yoar
boy in? A. He was in the eighth, I think.
Q. The eighth? A. Yes, sir, he was in the eighth, I
think, last year.
Q. This past school year? A. This past school year.
Q. What school did he attend? A. Riverside High.
Q- You live three or four blocks from Riverside, don’t
—155—
y°u! A. I live about three or four blocks. I’d say about
four blocks.
Q- From Riverside, and you live about a mile and a half
from Louisburg School? A. Yes, sir.
Q' jAiT1(1 Riverside is much the newer school, isn’t it? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And did yoa know a man named B. B. Felder, Rever
end B. B. Felder? A. I don’t know him.
Deposition of Joseph Henry Branch
700a
Q. Now, Mr. Branch, how many people connected will
the government case or the other—the plaintiff’s case have
talked with you about this ? A. I wouldn’t know how many
people. It’s several been to talk to me. I don’t know ton
many.
Q. I mean with the FBI men? A. I wouldn’t know ex
actly how many. I don’t know.
Q. Did they tell you they were FBI men? A. Tes,
told me they were FBI and showed me their card.
Q. How many of those have been to see you? A, I
wouldn’t say exactly how many.
Q. About how many? A. I ’d say around two or three,
—156-
Q. On how many different times? A. To be frank witt
you I don’t know, I don’t have any idea.
Q. Some of the times up there at Mr. Ball’s automobile
place? A. Yes, one up there.
Q. And did they tell you why they come to see you or how
they knew that you were interested in this school matter!
A. Well, they didn’t tell me why they was interested or
anything, so when they came to see me—when they first
came to see me I didn’t know who they was or what they
come for.
Q. They soon told you? A. They told me.
Q. Every time they came to see you they told you what
they came for? A. Yes, sir. But at first I didn’t know.
Q. Did they tell you how they knew you had an interest
in this school case or had any testimony? A. They didd
tell me how they found out or how they had no interest®
it or nothing. In fact, I don’t have no interest in it. *1
wife has the interest in it because she has control of tbs
little boy, and anything she hears the little boy do, that
Deposition of Joseph Henry Branch
701a
he do, she handles that, and all I do is to take care of him,
— 157—
and she is the boss of the little boy. Anything she wanted
him to do she don’t have to ask me. She goes on and do it
herself. She don’t ask me.
Q. Your wife has the child? A. Yes.
Q. And she signed your name ? A. By me being the hus
band.
Q. And you signed the note to Mr. Smith? A. That’s
right, I signed the note to Mr. Smith. I had her to take
it up. I told her I would take it back to the Board.
Q. Mr. Ball told you that he wanted you to take his
address off and you changed the request? A. I changed
the request and changed the address.
Q. What did you do, fill out a new form and change the
address? How did you do it? A. I don’t know. I got a
fellow to fill it out. I can’t write too large. I got the fellow
to fill it out for me.
Q. What fellow? A. I forget his name, it’s been so
long. I done forgot who it was.
Q. It was over a year ago and you’ve forgot that? A.
That’s right. See, I’m fifty years old and I have a very
- 1 5 8 -
short remembrance.
Deposition of Joseph Henry Branch
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all.
Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Except for you and your wife has any other legal
guardian ever been appointed for the grandchild? A.
Never have.
Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. You have always taken care of the assignment—you
wife has always taken care of the assignment of your chili
to school? A. That’s right.
Mr. Chambers: I’d like to get a copy of this ap
plication form and that letter.
Mr. Schwelb: Anyway, could we for conveniens
borrow it and copy it. So much reference has he®
made to it that I think it ought to go into the record |;
Mr. Yarborough: It’s perfectly all right. I was
trying to see if both of them were the same.
Mr. Schwelb: How about us taking the yellow copy
off and putting it in the record?
Mr. Yarborough: Look at them and see if they
are the same.
Mr. Schwelb: They are the same.
—159-
(Discussion off record)
Mr. Schwelb: May the record show that the two
applications and the one letter will be placed as
Exhibits 1, 2, and 3 to the deposition of Mr. Branch
after copies have been made, and they will be marked
at that time a n d received in evidence subject to the
relevancy and materiality and objections that the
defendants may have.
Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Branch, where is your grandson’s mother!
She is living in New York.
Q. She is living in New York? A. Yes, sir.
702a
Deposition of Joseph Henry Branch
703a
Q. She is able-bodied and all right, isn’t she, as far as
you know? A. Far as I know. I haven’t seen her. He
hasn’t seen her in about four years.
Q. Did you take it up with her about signing for the
child to any school? A. We wouldn’t have had to take
it up with her.
Q. I say did she do it before? A. She didn’t do it.
Never have took it up with her about whether to go to
school or not to go to school since the first day he went.
Q. I understand, but the child’s mother is living in New
—160—
York! A. That’s right.
Q. And where did you ask for the child to go to for this
coming year? A. I didn’t ask for nowhere to go myself.
Q. Where did your wife? A. My wife, she is going to
let him go to the same one as last year.
Q. Riverside? A. Yes.
Q. And did she fill out a form for that? A. I didn’t
hear her say.
Q. Did you hear her say whether she did? A. No.
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all.
Deposition of Joseph Henry Branch
Witness excused.
704a
Exhibit 1 Annexed to Deposition of
Joseph Henry Branch
(See Opposite)
1
705a
706a
Exhibit 2 Annexed to Deposition of
Joseph Henry Branch
(See Opposite) 25^
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709a
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
— 161-
(The following proceedings took place on July 28, 1966,;
Christine Coppedge being first duly sworn, was examimj
and testified as follow s:
Direct Examination by Mr. Schwelb :
Q. Would you state your name and your address at;
your race for the record, please? A. Christine Coppedgt,
Route 4, Box 1212. I am from Franklin County, Louisbnr;
North Carolina.
Q. Are you a Negro or a white lady? A. I am Negro,
Q. Mrs. Coppedge, is your son Harold W. Coppedge! i
Yes, sir.
Q. And is your husband Reverend Luther Coppedge
A. Yes.
Q. And did you and your husband apply to send your-
apply in the spring of 1965 to send him to Edward Best
School? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether the names of the students and
parents who made such an application were published it
the newspaper? A. Yes.
—162-
Q. What newspaper was that? A. Well, I can’t recall
the exact date.
Q. I mean the name of the newspaper. A. It is The
Franklin Times.
Q. And Mrs. Coppedge, do you recall whether yon heard
it on the radio at all? A. No, I didn’t hear it on the radio,
but I heard someone say they heard it. I only saw it in
newspaper.
Q. Mrs. Coppedge, following the publication of the names
do you recall receiving any telephone calls? A. Yes.
711a
Q. Describe some of the telephone calls you received and
what they were like and how frequent they were. A. Well,
they were very frequent. Our first call I had asked me to
ask my husband did he want to preach his damn funeral.
Q. Beg your pardon? A. They asked me to ask my hus
band who they wanted to preach his damn funeral.
Q. When did you receive that call? A. Shortly after our
request of our child to the white school.
Q. Did you receive any other threats on the telephone?
—163—
A. Yes.
Q. What were some of the others? A. Well, the remarks
were very—well, it was very, very bad really.
Q. Was any specific action toward you threatened on the
telephone? A. Yes.
Q. What action? A. Well, they told us they were going
to kill us if we didn’t take it back.
Q. Take what back? A. Take the request back.
Q. Now, Mrs. Coppedge, after the names were published
in the newspaper, did you have an occasion to telephone
Mr. Fuller ? A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you identify yourself when you telephoned
him? A. Well, I really didn’t tell him who I was. He
asked me who was I and I said—well, after I had the con
versation with him, I told him did he know what he was
doing to us by publishing these names. Well, we had gotten
a lot of intimidations and I thought it was due to him pub
lishing the names and the location where we lived, and he
said I didn’t have to tell him how to write the newspaper.
—164—
I said, “Well, I am not trying to write your newspaper, but
I do feel that in some of the intimidations we are having
are due through the publishing of the names.” And he said,
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
712a
“Well, if I don’t publish the names that is not going to
make anybody love yon.” I told him I wasn’t one of his
members, and he asked me who was I and I said, “I am not
going to tell you.” I took for granted he knew who I w
since I said I was a member of Reverend Coppedge,
Q. Reverend Coppedge is what? A. Reverend Cop-
pedge’s church.
Q. Now, did Mr. Fuller at that time tell you why he pub
lished names, give you any reason? A. No, he did not
really, other than just so they could locate him.
Q. Did he identify who they were? A. No.
Q. What was your understanding as to what he meant!
Mr. Tucker: Objection to the form.
Mr. Schwelb: Just for the record, the relevance
of this question is to show whether fear was instilled
in her or understanding which could lead to fear was
instilled in her by the conversation.
—165-
Mr. Tucker : Objection.
B y Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Would you answer what you understood him to mean
by that? A. I had the impression they were talking about
the Klansmen.
Q. Did he specifically mention the Klansmen? A. Yes,
At one time when I met with him, with the Board of Educa
tion there, he said he didn’t have or he just couldn’t please
Luther our son, there were more people of our race to please
and he also had the white people to please, and the Klans
men if that is what you want to call it.
Q. Now, Mrs. Coppedge, I wonder if you are acquaint |
with Bertice May? A. Yes.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
713a
Q. Who is Bertice May! A. He is one of our neighbors.
Q. He is one of your neighbors? A. Yes.
Q. Anri after the names were published in the newspaper,
do you recall having any unusual conversation with him on
his land? A. Well, yes. I went over to visit one of my
neighbors. This person was sick and she had sent her son
- 1 6 6 -
over to tell my husband to come over and have prayer, and
he couldn’t go and he told me to go, and I went and I gave
them some words—well, I gave some words of consolation,
and as I was going through there he was at his pond fishing
and he—I spoke when I walked up. I spoke to him. I said,
“Good evening,” and he merely mumbled something out.
Really, it wasn’t anything clearly. And then he looked at
the lady whom was with me, a Mrs. Sue Wright and Mrs.
Martha Clanton, and he said, “No, I don’t want you on my
plantation, and this is my plantation and this is my pond,
and I don’t want you walking through here,” and when I
got to see the people, I was telling them about it, and she
said, “You shouldn’t have gone through there, and he has
asked us off his land,” and also stated that if a chicken or
dog walked on his plantation, why, he would shoot it.
Q. Now, Mrs. Coppedge, before you had applied for your
son to attend a formerly all white school, had you always
been able to walk across this gentleman’s land? A. Yes.
Q. Without interference? A. Yes.
—167—
Q. And since that incident have you walked across his
land? A. No, I haven’t.
Q- Now, Mrs. Coppedge, have you talked to me once or
twice in the last couple of days outside in the hall or in
front of the courthouse? A. Yes.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
714a
Q. And did I advise you about the Court order which tie
Court issued yesterday? A. Yes.
Q. I want to ask you whether generally speaking you
would prefer a geographical zoning plan or freedom oi
choice plan for Franklin County? A. Since it looks!:
we are going to have to have it this way for freedom oi
choice, I think we should go along and give it a try.
Q. Which would you prefer if you had your own choice!
A. Well, really, that is hard to state.
Q. Do you feel that the Negroes’ choice was complete!;
free?
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
Mr. Schwelb: (To witness) Answer the question,
A . No.
B y Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Why was that? A. Due to intimidations.
—168-
Q. Now, in spite of your feeling as to that, are yon will
ing' to do your best to make this freedom of choice work as
well as you can? A. Yes.
Q. Are you willing to meet with the School board or any
other group of people to discuss the matter with tkem! A
Yes.
Q. And encourage other Negroes to try to make it work!
A. Yes.
Q. And you plan to do that? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schwelb: I have no further questions.
715a
Cross Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mrs. Coppedge, you stated that you received some
phone calls from people that did not identify themselves?
A. Yes.
Q. Anri then you called Mr. Fuller over the telephone?
A. Yes.
Q. And you did not identify yourself? A. No, but I
took for granted that he knew who I was since I said I was
one of Reverend Coppedge’s members ?
—169—
Q. Members of his church? A. Right.
Q. Of course, he doesn’t know what church he is preach
ing, but churches usually have many members—most of
them? A. Yes.
Q. So you, upon his inquiry of you as to who you were,
you did not state your name—that’s right, isn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. And you said he told you that he published so that
they could locate him? A. Yes.
Q. He did not publish any address, did he? A. Yes.
Not exactly, but in one of his papers he had Reverend
Luther Coppedge, in the Cedar Rock area. That is pointing
to the location.
Q. Reverend who? A. Reverend Coppedge lived in the
Cedar Rock area.
Q. You called him about the publication of the names
of the people who had applied for transfers? A. No, not
all of them. I called him about the two names that he had
published, which was Reverend Luther Coppedge and Rev
erend S. D. Dunstan.
Q. When was that article published? Do you recall? A.
- 1 7 0 -
No, I don’t know exactly.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
716a
Q. When did yon call, in the summer of 1965 or when!
A. Well, it was last year.
Q. Yes, do yon remember the part of last year? Wasitj
soon after, soon after the names of those who had applied
to transfer were published! A. Beg your pardon.
Q. Was it soon after the newspaper published the name*
of the students who requested transfers? A. Well, majlt
it was about two or three copies after that. That was i
reason for telephoning him, asking him why did he keep
publishing the names because that was about the thirdorj
fourth time he had published those names in the paper,
Q. Well, the names were published of those—of student
who were seeking transfers were published in the issued
June 8,1965. You said it was two or three issues aftertWj
A. Yes, right.
Q. That he published your husband’s name again! A
Bight after we met with you all, with the Board of Educa
tion. I think that was somewhere about the second or third
of September.
Q. That was about three months, not two or three issues
of the paper. A. Well, it was really published—
—171-
Q. Well several months—the issue was published Jam
8th. A. I don’t know the exact date.
Q. I’m talking about—are you speaking of the time tia-
they published the children’s names or some other to®'
A. I’m talking about he published about—-well, in oth®
words, he said that Reverend Luther Coppedge was tit
leader of this group about the school suit.
Q. School suit? A. That’s right.
Q. So he didn’t—that was after the suit was institute
then, wasn’t it? He said he was the leader, the oneyoa'f
thinking about or speaking about was when he pubhs t
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
717a
in the paper that Reverend Luther Coppedge was the leader
in the school suit? A. Well, he was the leader of—
Q. I mean I understood you to say that some suit had
been started, and don’t you know that the suit was started—
A. Well, it was before the suit really. It was before the
suit. But his name was published after and before, but this
time—
Q. After the suit was instituted. I’m speaking, please,
ma’am— A. Yes.
—172—
Q. Please, ma’am, about the publication, yon are talking
about when you say you telephoned him and made the com
plaint or asked him not to-— A. That was before the suit.
Q. How long before? A. I couldn’t tell you. I know it
was after we had this meeting with the Board of Educa
tion. I don’t know the exact date.
Q. That meeting was sometime after school had opened?
A. Yes. I know it was on the second or third of September.
Q. After school had opened? A. Right.
Q. And you met several times with the Board? A.
Twice.
Q. And, Mrs. Coppedge, and even you objected once in
substance to him publishing your husband’s name? A. No,
I didn’t reject him really. I just asked him why it was nec
essary to keep publishing the names and why the location.
No, I didn’t object at all.
Q. So you were not making a complaint to him or an
objection; you wanted information? A. Well, I was ask
ing him that—
—173—
Q- Asking him what? A. Because we were getting so
much intimidation and I thought the reason why we were
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
718a
getting so much intimidation was due to the names being
published so much.
Q. He told you, did he not, that he was publishing wht
the minutes of the Board of Education meeting showed!
A. No, he didn’t tell me that during the time, during tot
telephone conversation, no.
Q. Now, you say Mr. Bertice May owns a farm closet)
your husband’s farm, doesn’t he? A. Right.
Q. And he objected to you and two other ladies walking
across his place? A. Well, really it wasn’t a field or any
thing. It was a path, you could drive a car or a tractor
through there.
Q. It’s a pasture through there? A. Yes, it’s a meadoi
Q. Well, it is his premises? A. Yes, it is.
Q. You were with Mrs. Martha Clanton and someMf
else. Who was that? A. Mrs. Susie Wright.
—174-
Q. And Mrs. Martha Clanton—Mr. Willie Clanton’s wife!
A. No, she is his mother.
Q. You are a member of the NAACP, aren’t you! A
Yes.
Q. How long have you been a member? A. 1964.
Q. And I believe Mr. Willie Clanton was at one time and
at that time president of the chapter of NAACP? A. Be?
your pardon ? .
Q. Was he president of the NAACP, the whole chape1
A. Who was that?
Q. Willie Clanton. A . Oh, yes, yes, he was.
Q. And he presided at the meetings and was quite lV'
in the organization, wasn’t he? At the meetings you®
tended he presided, didn’t he, as president? A. e
sometimes.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
719a
Q. If he did not preside, who did? A. Well, now you
always have substitutes, somebody, working in their place.
If they can’t come they always send somebody else.
Q. You know Reverend B. B. Felder, don’t you? A. Yes.
—175—
Q. And you have been to meetings which he attended?
A. Once.
Q. And he is not a member of the Franklin County chap
ter; he lives somewhere else? A. Well, I don’t know that.
Q. All right. Mr. May, after this incident about walking
across his place, you went to your sick neighbor and you
told her of it? A. Yes.
Q. Who was that? A. Well, they are either Ingrahams
or Austins. I don’t know them too good. People who just
moved in the neighborhood.
Q. Ingraham or Austins? A. Ingrahams or Austins.
Q. You don’t know their first names? A. No, I don’t
know that.
Q. Whose land do they live on? A. Roland Braswell.
Q. Roland Braswell? A. Yes.
Q. Now, are they still living there? A. Yes.
Q. And that lady told you, when you told her about the
incident, said, “Why, he had even forbidden me to come
—176—
on there,” or words to that effect, stopped her from coming
on Ms land? A. Yes.
Q. And she hadn’t attempted to enroll a child, had she?
A. No.
Q- And he told her if a chicken or dog came on there,
he’d shoot it, or what did he say? A. Yes, he’d shoot it.
Q. Shoot it? A. Yes.
Q. And he still lives there, doesn’t he? A. Yes.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
720a
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all. Thank you, Mis
Coppedge.
Rtdirect Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Mrs. Coppedge, I’d like to look at this article ail!
ask you if that is your handwriting on it? A. No, it is not
This is Harold’s ; this is my son’s.
Q. Did he give that to me? A. Yes.
Q. Sometime ago? A. Yes.
Mr. Schwelb: I’d like to introduce into evidence,
please, a small clipping from the August 17, 1965-
—177-
it’s already in evidence. Another copy of it is al-;
ready in evidence in connection with Reverend Cop-
pedge. I withdraw that. I’m stprry. I withdraw that
I don’t want to put it in evidence now.
Q. (Mr. Schwelb) Now, you mentioned that Mr. M a y sail
something about shooting any chicken or— A. Or dog.
Q. That came across his land? A. Yes.
Q. Did you have a dog to whom something happened’
A. Yes.
Q. What happened to this dog? A. Well, Brownie—the
dog’s name was Brownie. He and—Mr. Bertice M a y ’s dog
would come down and play with Brownie, and Brownie
would go back with him across the field. I don’t know i
he went to the May’s home, but I know he would go acios-
the field and play out there in the field with Bertice Mays
dog. And one day Brownie was shot. I don’t know w 0
shot the dog. I didn’t see Bertice May do it, but we felt
sure he did because that is the only place the dog woul B°
It didn’t ramble.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
721a
Q. You don’t have any personal knowledge as to who
—178-
shot the dog, do yon? A. No, I don’t.
Mr. Schwelb: Now, I have no further questions
but I would like to introduce into evidence the
Franklin Times of January 13,1966, wherein it iden
tified Reverend Luther Coppedge as residing in the
Cedar Rock community.
Mr. Yarborough: It is stipulated it was after the
suit was instituted?
Mr. Schwelb: That’s correct. Well, I’d like to in
troduce into evidence as Government’s Exhibit 1 to
this witness’ deposition the clipping from the Frank
lin Times of January 13, 1966.
(Marked for identification.)
Q. (Mr. Schwelb) Did you testify that you saw your
name or your husband’s name in the newspaper on several
occasions? A. Yes, I did.
Q. Was some of them before and some of them after the
suit? A. Right.
Mr. Schwelb: I have no further questions.
Across Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mrs. Coppedge, the issue of the Franklin Times that
—179—
described your husband as Reverend Luther Coppedge in
the Cedar Rock community came out on January 13, 1966,
didn t it? A. I don’t know. I don’t know the exact dates.
Ouly I know I read it. I don’t have the dates.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
722a
Q. Did you call Mr. Fuller after he put the area in#
he lived? A. Yes.
Q. You called him after the paper came out that 4
scribed your husband as living in the Cedar Rock com*
nity? A. Well, really—
Q. Or do you know? I ’m trying— A. Well, I dot
know for sure.
Q. You haven’t told me in months of the time y< I
Mr. Fuller. A. I don’t know for sure.
Q. The reason I ’m trying to ask you I’m trying toil
out the best I can as to when it was. Can you give meaij:
idea as to the month? A. No, I can’t.
Q. You cannot. And do you know that your hustani,
as next friend of your son Harold, did institute a suit along
with others against the Board of Education; you knowtha!
he instituted a lawsuit, don’t you? A. Yes, with otters,
— 180-
Q. I say with others. A. Yes.
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all.
Mr. Schwelb: I have nothing further.
Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mrs. Coppedge, do you know the date that you
with the Board of Education folowing the application fo'
transfer of your son? A. Yes, I think it was S e p tem h ei
third—second or third.
Q. And you met with them on two occasions! A.̂
Q. Do you know the second time you met with them?
No, I can’t recall that time.
Q. Was it October? A. Yes, maybe.
Q. Late October? A. Yes, yes.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
723a
Recross Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mrs. Coppedge, actually you all lived in Justice com
munity? A. Right.
—181—
Q. And not so far from Justice Manufacturing Com
pany, is it? A. That’s right.
Q. It is a garment industry? A. Yes.
Q. That employs mainly women seamstresses ? A. I don’t
—well, I don’t know whether it is men or women.
Q. Have you been there? A. Yes, I have been there.
Q. It is an integrated organization, men and women of
both the white race and the colored race work side by side ?
A. Yes—well, I don’t know about side by side.
Q. They do work side by side? A. No, I won’t—I won’t
say they are.
Q. You won’t say when, the time you went there? A.
Well, I didn’t go where they were working. I went there to
apply for a job but I wasn’t hired.
Q. There are people working there— A. Yes.
Q. People you know, your friends? A. Yes, I know them.
Mr. Schwelb: I have no further questions.
Witness excused.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
724a
Government’s Exhibit 1
(See Opposite)
* “ ‘ “ w i n v u u m /
Board of Education. The suit
charges discrimination on the
part of the Board In denying
transfer of certain Negro stu
dents to previously all-white
schools.
1 The Notice of Motion to In
tervene was served on local
school officials Tuesday after
noon here, following an an
nouncement in Washington by
Attorney General Nicolas Kat-
zenbach. j
The federal action seeks to
gain from the court permis
sion to appear as plaintiffs,
along with the Negro group,
in the original suit. The ac
tion does not constitute a new
suit, it does, however, seek'
to make each Board member a
defendant in the case. The
original suit, filed by the N e-j
gro group on December 1 ,1965 ,!
(acted against the Board co l-,
lectively, as a corporate body.
The new development serves
to cloud the status of the case
presently. An answer to the
original charges is scheduled
to be presented to the federal
court in Raleigh tomorrow.
Normally, in federal cases,
twenty days-are allowed for an
answer, and it has not beep
made clear whether this new
est move on the part of the
Justice Department will alter I
the schedule.
The federal charges include a !
claim that the Board failed toj
inform the Negro parents who
sought lateral transfers for
their children, of the conditions
upon which transfers would be
granted. Actually, the Board
was required by the Office of
Education to send a letter to
each parent, dated May 10,1965,
informing them that instruc
tions for applying for a lateral
transfer could be obtained from ,
their principal or at the Super-
intendent’ s office. The guide
line, spelling out the criteria
for transfers, dated April 30,
by the Office of Education, was
not presented to the Board until
after the letters had been sent.
The only criteria contained in
the federal guideline was the
one which granted a transfer to
a student to obtain a course of
study in a school which was not
» ' li
■i f ) .
■’ ! a
%
and thereby caused these people
to be "intimidated and threat
ened, including cross burnings
■■V f* -* :
~ * — & lUiBS
and Vice Chairman of the
Board, until they were an-
See JOINS Page 6
Joins
(Continued from page 1)
nounced in four newscasts
over the Loulsburg radio sta
tion. The list was not released
to the radio, and there has been
no explanation on how the list
was obtained.
A list was presented to mem
bers of the Board on May 17,
following the May 14th deadline
1 for applications. Three weeks
later, Friday, June 4, the list
was revealed by radio station
WYRN in Loulsburg on four
| newscasts. On Monday, June 8,
! Fuller said he requested the
Board to allow him to print
jthe list in his paper because
("any effort to keep the list
J secret has failed, and both news
1 media should be treated alike.''
Fuller said he considered the
list to be of public Interest,
but because the Board desired
they not be released, he re
spected that wishj and even
though he held a list for three
weeks, it was not released in
his newspaper until after they
were revealed by the other local
news media.
i On Monday, June 14, unknown
assailants fired upon the homes
of Irene Arrington and Sandy
Jones, two Negro fam ilies, in
the Moulton Community. Both
had been listed as having ap
plied for transfer of their chil
dren to white schools. A cross
was burned near the home of
Rev. Luther Coppedge in the
Cedar Rock Community. He
had also sought transfer of a
child. All three Negroes are
parties to the present suit.
The federal motion requests
the court to order the Board
to demonstrate that it can give
a true freedom of choice of
s c h o o l s , uninfluenced by
threats, intimidation or har-
rassment, to every student be
ginning in the fall term. If
this cannot be done, the suit
(requests the court to order
;c|
■1
i a unitary system of geographic
attendance zones. Such an
action would require' the as
signment of each child to the
school iiearest his home, re
gardless of his race.
Board Attorney E. F. Yar
borough of Loulsburg and Irvin
Tucker, former assistant dis
trict , attorney for the federal
courts of Raleigh, are pre
paring an answer to the origi
nal suit. Yarborough and
Schools Superintendent Warren
W. Smith both declined to com
ment on the newest development
Wednesday, other than to say
that it would be brought to the
(Board and appropriate action
would be taken to defend the
charges.
Smith indicated that a special
meeting of the Board within the
next few days might be called
to discuss the matter. The
question of calling a special
meeting would be a matter for
the chairman, M rs. T. H. Dick
ens, who could not be reached
for comment. 5
725a
726a
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
—182-
F red W ilton R ogers Being first duly sworn, was ex
amined and testified as follows:
Examination by Mr. Francis Kennedy:
Q. Would you state your name and address, please! A,
My name is Fred Wilton Rogers. I live at 107 Hillsboro
Street in Franklinton.
Q. Wliat is your occupation? A. Superintendent of tie
Franklin City Schools.
Q. How long have you been in that position? A. The?
years.
Q. How many schools do you have in your school system!
A. Yes, sir, two.
Q. What are their names? A. Franklinton High School
and B. F. Person-Albion School.
Q. Tell us if one or more of the schools is predominantly
white in enrollment? A . Yes, one is predominantly white
in enrollment.
Q. Which one? A . Franklinton High School.
Q. What is the racial composition of the other school!
A. Well, the other school is a total Negro school.
—183-
Q. Tell us how many Negro children attended the pre
dominantly white school last year? A. Well, we had
fifteen to request transfer and we actually had thirteen to
complete, to go most of the year and complete the year.
Two of them moved during the summer.
Q. Is the Franklinton City School district operated under
a school integration plan? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Under that plan how many grades were desegregated
last year? A. Well, according to the plan all grades weie
727a
open for freedom of choice. There were no restrictions in
the plan.
Q. How many grades did yonr schools have? A. One
through twelve each.
Q. Have you submitted a form to the Department of
Health, Education and Welfare in which you estimate the
enrollment for next year? A. Yes, we have.
Q. On those forms have you indicated the racial composi
tion at the predominantly white school? A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us how many Negro children you have
—184—
anticipated will enroll this fall in the predominantly white
school? A. At the present time as a result of freedom of
choice there are seven Negro youngsters that will attend
the predominantly white school.
Q. Are any white children expected in an all Negro
school? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you say your school system—is there a Headstart
Program in operation at your school system this summer?
A. Yes.
Q. And that Headstart Program is financed by the Fed
eral Government? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you tell us how many instructors you have
at your Headstart Program? A. We have four teachers.
Q. And how many of them are white? A. Two of them
are white and two Negro teachers.
Q' How many teacher’s aides do you have? A. We have
four teacher-aides.
Q. How many of those are white and how many Negro?
A. One white and one Negro.
—185—
Q' How many volunteers? A. We have two permanent
volunteers—white.
Deposition o f F red W ilton R ogers
728a
Q. How many food helpers do yon have? A. Wetai
two. One is white and one is Negro.
Q. How many students were enrolled in the Headstall
Program this summer? A. Well, we had somewhereinil
neighborhood of 85 to begin the program.
Q. I see. How many actually did begin? A. Welt
actually did begin, about 85.
Q. Approximately how many of those were white! i
About 20.
Q. Were the rest Negro? A. Yes.
Q. You keep close supervision of the numbers of clii
dren who are in attendance in the Headstart Program! A
It’s according to how close you mean. I know how many*
have. Is that what you mean?
Q. Yes, I do. How many do you have? A. At tie!
present time we have about 65.
Q. How many of those are white? A. Well, there a®
no white children in this program today.
Q. Do you anticipate that this is a permanent condition!
— 186-
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
Mr. Tucker: Object to the form.
Mr. Kennedy: I will restate that.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Well, as far as you know have the white children
transferred out of the county? A. No.
Q. Have the white children indicated the reasons wli)
they are not in attendance at the Headstart Program! A
The white children?
Q. The white children or their parents. A. We haTt
some indication but I don’t know whether this would to
D eposition o f F red W ilton R ogers
729a
Q. What is the indication?
Mr. Yarborongh: We object to the form.
Mr. Tucker: Object.
A. I don’t—
Mr. Kennedy: Yon may answer.
A. Well, we have had some follow-ups on these situations,
considering that they may be absentees. For instance, a
social worker has gone to see when they would be in or
why they were out—the situation like that.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. What is the result of that investigation? A. And
—187—
generally speaking perhaps there has not been any real
eleareut reason, but the assumption might be drawn here
that they didn’t like the balance, racial balance—perhaps
the parents.
Q. Let’s go back if we may to the racial composition of
the two schools in your school system. During the normal
school year how many white children attend school normally
in your school system? A. In the school system itself?
Q- Yes, sir. A. About 750.
Q' And how many Negroes? A. Wait a minute. I got
that wrong. Let’s make it 680.
Q- How many Negro children? A. About 750.
Mr. Chambers: I am confused. You say 750
Negroes and 680 whites. You are talking about stu
dents in the regular school year?
A. That is approximately correct.
Deposition o f F red W ilton R ogers
730a
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. In how many grades actually did whites and Negros
go to school together? A. This will have to be an approi
mation.
Q. That is all right. A. I didn’t bring this informal
- 188-
Perhaps about seven grades where children chose to ente.
Q. I see. How many grades will be attended by white
and Negroes for the coming school year? A. It will hi
reduction. I don’t know the answer to that exactly.
Q. Let me bring your attention to the time about ta
days or two weeks ago. Did any unusual event happen
occur to your home and at your home in your presence«i
at your property? A. Yes.
Q. Cn you describe what that event was? A. There s
a cross put there on the sidewalk in an attempt to gets
to burn.
Q. What time of day was it? A. It was about 11*
Actually I checked the time on this. It was after—I
a few days after, and it was 11:08 I believe when I ®
check the time, so it would have been 10:45 or 11:00.
Q. Was this in the evening, at nighttime? A. Yes.
Q. Did you notify the sheriff? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you notify the police? A. No, sir.
Q. Was there any unusual event that occurred to i
—lor
Franklinton school about the time of the cross bur*
perhaps? A. According to reports—I didn’t see s
they show this.
Q. What was that about?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
Mr. Kennedy: You may answer.
731a
A. There was reported—a cross was reported burned in
front of the Franklinton High School.
Mr. Kennedy: I ’d like to offer in evidence at this
time an article from the Franklin Times of July 19,
1966, describing cross burnings in Franklin County
as Government’s Exhibit 1.
(Marked for identification)
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Mr. Rogers, did you notify any law enforcement of
ficials about the cross burning at your home? A. No, I
didn’t.
Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Rogers, how long have you been superintendent
of the Franklinton schools? A. Three years.
Q. Were you in the Franklinton school system prior to
—190—
then? A. No.
Q. Were you in Franklin County prior to then? A. No.
Q. Where were you prior to going to the Franklinton
school system? A. I was in Surry County, principal of
Elkin High School.
Q- What city was that? A. Elkin, North Carolina.
Q. How long has Franklinton been a separate school
district? A. Let’s see. If I had to take a guess at that,
I’d say 1905.
Mr. Yarborough: Ever since there has been a
school.
A- Yes, it’s been a long time.
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
732a
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. Have you been supported partially by county ft
and city funds? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have any students coming to the Frank ■
schools from Franklin County? A. They are all ft:;
Franklin County.
Q. I ’m talking about outside— A. Outside of then
trict ?
Q. Yes. A. Not that we are aware of at all.
Q. Do you have any students going from FrankM:
to county schools? A. No, sir, not that we know of,
say that because if someone does reach across—if I rat
out into the county for students, Mr. Smith hits me ill
knuckles. We have a policy of transfer.
Q. Do the Franklinton schools and the Franklin Coil
schools have any connection whatsoever? A. The Frankl-
County operates the transportation, only the transports
tion, and that is only in furnishing us busses and paying!
expense. We operate this as we see fit. We have ft
authority to operate this like we want to operate it, s®:
as routing, and so forth. All of that is our authority,
Q. All the busses are within the city limits? A. No,®
within the city limits. Franklinton is a township real
Q. All the busses within the Franklinton township? •'
Yes.
Q. Was last year, the 1965-66 school year, the first f1
you had integration? A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any integration of teachers at thattiW
A. Not—we perhaps should say we had a special develop
mental reading teacher working with both schools, but'
didn’t—I guess that is the extent of it.
733a
Q. Was that a white teacher! A. Yes, she was.
Q. Were all grades in the Franklinton school system open
to Negro students! A. Yes.
Q. Under the freedom of choice plan! A. Yes.
Q, You didn’t have a stair-step plan, you just opened all
grades! A. All grades, yes.
Q. At what school was this Headstart Program being
held? A. Franklinton High School.
Q. And you have 65 Negroes and no white! A. Eight at
this time, yes, sir.
Q. How many did you have to start off with-—white
students? A. About 20.
Q. And all of those withdrew? A. Well, eight of them
withdrew pretty quickly and then twelve of them went
- 1 9 3 -
half time four weeks of the program, and about five up
until the beginning of this week, and then they are all out
now, so it’s been a gradual withdrawing of white students.
Q. Have these Headstart children enrolled in school
for next year? A. They have made their choice of schools,
yes. I mean they are not enrolled. They are pre-school
children.
Q. They have been assigned? A. Yes, they have.
Q. All 65 are assigned to the B. F. Person-Albion school?
A. That’s right.
Q. Do you have an opinion as to why you had this de
crease in Negro enrollment from 15 to 7?
Mr. Yarborough: Objection to the form.
Mr. Tucker: Objection.
Mr. Chambers: You can answer.
A. An opinion why all chose B. F. Person-Albion school?
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
734a
Q. Yes, rather than the Franklinton High School, 1
Well, I don’t have an opinion beyond to state that perk
it is traditional.
Q. That is, for Negroes to attend Negro schools#;
whites to attend white schools? A. Yes.
m
Q. In yonr opinion is integration of schools in Frail
ton Township a popular idea?
Mr. Tucker: Objection to the form.
A. Integration of schools in Franklinton Township a pom
lar idea? I would say it is not a popular idea.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. How many Negroes do you have teaching in the Hek
start Program? A. Four.
Q. And how many white teachers? A. Two.
Q. And how many Negro teachers will he teaching«j
Franklinton High School next year? A. Now, this is'
union school and we have hired one Negro teacher fork
school next year.
Q. How many white teachers in the B. F. Person-AHi
School? A. No white teachers.
Q. I didn’t get the figure of the number of faculty®1
hers you have at Franklinton High School? A. Yel®1
thirty.
Q. And how many Negro teachers do you have at
Per son-Albion ? A. We have—it’s a hard question to at
swer. You want last year?
Q. Well, is the thirty the projected number of tea®-
for next year? A. No. We have 29, plus three.
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
735a
Q. At which school! A. B. F. Person.
Q. Thirty-three! A. Yes.
Q. And that is the figure for last year! A. No. You
said the projected number, what you expected next year
I believe.
Q. I’m sorry. For 1966-67. A. That is the next school
year.
Q. 33! A. 33, yes, sir.
Q. In 1965-66! A. 29.
Q. What is the projected enrollment of teachers at
Franklinton High School for next year! A. 30.
Q. The same number! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have any program under title one or title two
of the ESEA program! A. We have the title one program
being studied for approval at the present time, and this is
included in my projection for next year for the B. F.
Person-Albion school. This application is pending approval.
—196—
Q. You didn’t have Headstart at any of the schools last
year! A. No.
Q. What is the population of Franklinton! A. The sign
says 1400 something. Let’s see. Let’s say 1500. It is not
a relative question when talking about schools to serve the
township which is much larger in population that the city.
Q. You have a city of Franklinton! A. Yes.
Q- And a township of Franklinton! A. Yes.
Q- And the township goes beyond the city limits! A.
That’s right. In other words, we have more children in
Sch°ol ^ an the population of the city would say, so it is
not a very good figure to use when talking about schools.
Q. Do you have any students coming into Franklinton
iom am other county or any other school district besides
1 ranklinton! A. No, sir.
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
736a
Q. And none of your students go outside of the Franklin,
ton school district? A. No, sir.
—197-
Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Rogers, your Board of Education is completely
separate from the Franklin County Board of Education,
isn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. It is entitled the Franklinton City Board of Educa
tion? A. That’s right.
Q. That is the statutory title. And the County Board of
Education supplies and pays the expense of operating the
school busses? A. Yes, that’s right.
Q. And whenever the busses—once the busses get in a
wreck that comes before the County Board of Education?
A. It is the County Board of Education business then.
Q. Beyond that you select your routes, pick your drivers,
and run it independently of the county system? A. Yes.
Q . And insofar as operation of the schools, excepting
the school busses, your district could well be in Vance
County or Granville County as far as being a part of the
Franklin County Board of Education is concerned? I mean
—198—
you have no more— A. Well, there are attendance coun
cillors. We share attendance councillors and some supervi
sion. These things we share.
Q. Other than that you are completely independent of
the Franklin County Board of Education? A. That’s right.
Q . And you make your own application to the federal
government if you so desire? A. Yes.
Q. And you operate a Headstart program without ask
ing them if you can? A. That’s right.
Q. And you can adopt a free choice plan like last year
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
737a
without asking them about this, whether you talk to them
about this or not? A. Yes, that’s right.
Q. You do as you please so far as your Board of Educa
tion? A. Yes.
Q. And you went last year—your Board of Education
went last year free choice all twelve grades? A. Yes.
Q. And you stated in response to Mr. Chambers’ question
that all of the pre-school children in the Headstart pro
gram who are now in the program have been assigned to
—199—
the B. F. Person-Albion School so far as you know? A.
Yes.
Q. And I ask you if they weren’t assigned pursuant to
written request by their parents? A. Yes.
Q. Or other persons standing in for their parents? A.
Yes.
Q. Under the free choice plan? A. Right.
Q. And all of the colored children for whom applications
were made last year to attend the Franklinton Union High
School were assigned to the Franklinton Union High
School? A. Yes.
Q- And if any white children have applied for assign
ment to the B. F. Person-Albion chool, they would have
been assigned there? A. Well, we will have to assume
under the plan this would have been true.
Q. They would have been if you had had an application?
A. Under the plan, yes.
Q. The reason they weren’t assigned is because you had
no application?
Mr. Chambers: We object to the form of the ques
tion.
Mr. Yarborough: I withdraw the question.
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
738a
— 200—
Q. (Mr. Yarborough) The reason there was no colored
person at the B. F. Person-Albion School this last year,
there was none assigned—
Mr. Chambers: Yon did say the B. F. Person
School. I believe you meant to say the other school.
Q. (Mr. Yarborough) If there are no white children at
the B. F. Person School, the reason is because none had ap
plied ?
Mr. Chambers: We object to the form.
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. (Mr. Yarborough) Your township then levies an ad
valorem tax on the property in the township to pay some
township bonds? A. Yes.
Q. And the only people that attend the schools are those
who reside in the township or who may be on the town
ship tax books and pay the township taxes so far as you
know? A. Yes.
Q. And the tax rate is what, an extra tax rate of about
fifty cents on a hundred! A. Seems like it was thirty-some
cents.
Q. It is over and above the county-wide tax! A. Yes,
it is.
— 201—
Examination by Mr. Kennedy:
Q. In the operation of the Headstart program this sum
mer in the Franklinton school, are there services provided
in addition to educational services? A. In terms of med
ical or something of that nature ?
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
739a
Q. Yes. A. Yes.
Q. Are there medical services provided? A. Yes.
Q. Are there dental services provided? A. Yes.
Q. Are there licensed physicians who examine the chil
dren? A. Yes.
Q. What is the race of the physician who examines the
children? A. Dr. Mallette is a Negro who does the phys
ical examinations, general physical examinations. Dr. Whit
field is an optometrist, white. Dr. Eakes is a white dentist.
These are the people dealing with us in the program.
Mr. Kennedy: I have no further questions.
Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Rogers, you say you do share attendance council
lors with the Franklin County Schools? A. Yes.
—202—
Q. You say some supervision. What is that? A. Well,
the supervisory service for the county, for all schools in
the county, operate at the present time for all schools, in
cluding ours.
Q- Mr. Yarborough asked you about the special tax.
Doesn’t the county also levy a tax for your school system?
A. Yes.
Q. How is it divided between your school system and
the county? A. Well, at this time we have twenty percent,
approximately twenty percent. I mean it is just a—
Q. They levy one tax and give you— A. Our percent is
based on average daily membership.
Q- Mr. Rogers, did you have any activity between Frank
i e 011 High School and any predominantly Negro school in
Franklin County? A. No. Activity?
Q' Any kind—do you have any activity between the
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
740a
B. F. Per son-Albion School and any predominantly white
school in Franklin County? A. No.
Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Rogers, it came up about supervision. You meant
-203-
supervisors? A. Well, supervisors.
Q. It is not supervision of the Board of Education over
your system, is it? A. No.
Q. It is a supervision allocated by the State, is it not!
A. Yes. I expect these people have no actual authority over
any school, but they assist each school in examining the
curriculum and making suggestions as to what should be
done about it.
Q. It is a position allotted by the State? A. Yes, both
of these are—all three of them are.
Q. And they are paid by the State? A. Yes.
Q. As teachers and others are paid? A. Yes.
Q. And the tax rate or the tax levy that the county com
missioners of Franklin County makes is prorated between
your county and—between your township and the county
system is pursuant to a formula set up by State law, isnt
it? A. Yes.
Q. And you draw a certain amount of money from the
county just as the County Board of Education does? A.
Yes- —20P-
Q. And all regulated by statutes of North Carolina pen
taining to the State Board of Education? A. Yes.
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all.
Mr. Chambers: I have no further questions.
(Witness excused.)
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
Crosses
Burned in
County
At least three cross-
burnings were reported in the
county last week, all coming
at about 11 p.m. Thursday
night.
Two were fired at Frank-
lititon following a loud blast,
which officers say was de
signed to take them away from
the scene of one of the burnings
at the Franklinton High School
on Main Street. The second .
was burned on the lawn of the
home of Franklinton School
Superintendent Fred Rogers. ,
Rogers was home at the time
and quickly extinguished the
flaming cross and called of
ficers.
A third cross was discovered
early Friday morning almost
totally destroyed, on the lawn
in front of the Franklin Coun
ty Board of Education building
on Blckett Blvd.
Reports have it that the
crosses were burned in pro
test to the Head Start program
being conducted at the Frank
linton School. The program,
according to reports, was first
an integrated pre-school fed
erally sponsored project,
being held in the formerly
all-white school. Recently,
according to reports, white
students have withdrawn,
tasking the project an a ll-
Negro project being conducted
In the previously all-white
facility.
........ . .. ~ /-•
i f .
L?
}l y r A o '
I
741a
Government’s Exhibit 1
742a
* # # # #
F rank W ood being first dnly sworn, was examined and
testified as follows:
Direct Examination by Mr. Kennedy:
Q. State yonr name, address, and occupation, please.
A. Frank Wood, Box 147 East Bend, North Carolina.
27018. Pastor of East Bend Baptist Church.
Q. Reverend Wood, have you been a witness in this case
before? A. Yes.
- 3 -
Q. Do you remember what date that was, approximately!
A. Toward the end of July. I don’t remember the exact
date.
Q. 1966? A. Yes.
Q. At the time you testified in this case what was your
occupation? A. I was Pastor of the Centerville Baptist
Church.
Q. Where is that located? A. Twelve miles northeast
of Louisburg on 561.
Q. Is that in Franklin County? A. Franklin County.
Q. Were you called as a witness in July 1966 on behalf
of the United States Government? A. Yes.
Q. After you testified for the Government, did you have
occasion to give a sermon or make a talk to the congrega
tion at your church? A. Yes.
Q. When was the first time that you— A. (Interposing)
Well, the sermon was on the 31st of July, or the Sunday
nearest that date. I believe it was the 31st of July. Iha
discussed in my testimony and in the informal conversa-
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
- 2 -
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
—4—
tions, both with the United States Attorney and the Attor
ney for the School Board, and the Attorney for the plain
tiff, what possible steps I, as a minister, might take to see
to it that the interim order was carried out. And in coopera
tion with them I—and in consultation with them—I decided
to read the Court order in church and to comment upon it.
Q. Did you do so? A. And also to mail a copy of it to
the other Baptist ministers in the County.
Q. Did you do so ? A. I did that.
Q. In addition to reading the order to the congregation
at the services of the congregation, did you make any com
ments on the school integration proceedings that were then
underway? A. Well, I read the text of the Court order as
the initial part of my sermon and I briefly interpreted my
understanding of the Court order, and I said, in effect, that
we were being asked to, and we were being given the re
sponsibility to, make this Court order work. And in order
to do so we had to guarantee genuine freedom of choice to
the Negro citizens of the community, freedom to transfer
their children to white schools if they desired to do so, and
—5—
that in order for us to carry that out, in order to create a
climate of freedom for these Negroes, we needed to en
courage them and welcome them if they wanted to transfer
to white schools, and if we didn’t do that, we would be in
danger of depriving them of freedom of choice and running
lie risk of further Court action in this case.
And I said that, therefore, I, as a citizen of the County,
wanted to encourage the Negroes to transfer if they wanted
0 and to make them feel welcome in the white schools.
n I appealed to them to do likewise.
744a
That was only the first half of my sermon thongh. The
second half of my sermon dealt with Abraham’s sacrifices
of Isaac, And I compared his willingness to sacrifice Isaac
to the requirement that was now being placed upon the con
gregation to sacrifice their racial pride and racial heritage
for a greater end. And I tried to say that the situation was
hopeful and that there was no need to he discouraged or dis-
paring about the sacrifice they were being called upon to
make, and in the end the results would be far more favor
able than they could anticipate at the present time.
- 6-
Q. You encouraged the members of your congregation to
make the Court order work? A. Yes.
Q. How many members of the congregation were pres
ent? A. Between eight and a hundred I believe. Approxi
mately. Somewhere in that neighborhood.
Q. How many members did you have at the Centerville
Church? A. Well, we have perhaps as many as 225 mem
bers on the roll. Of these about a hundred fifty are resident
members.
Q. How many of the members of the congregation reside
in Franklin County? A. All but four or five families,
couples.
Q. Did you leave Franklin County following the serm on!
A. Yes. I had some unused vacation time and I was going
to use it. I was going to take a week between Sundays im
mediately following that service, so I left for Miami that
Sunday afternoon and came hack the following Saturday
night. And then was in church that following Sunday and
then was gone for the next two Sundays on vacation, and
left immediately after the second Sunday, which was Au
gust the sixth or seventh.
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
745a
Q. Turning to the Saturday that you returned from ap-
—7—
proximately six days of vacation, did anything unusual
happen that day! A. About ten o’clock that night the
Chairman of Deacons came over to see me and said that the
deacons had met during my absence and were requesting
me to resign and that I was being asked to resign the fol
lowing Sunday, that is, the next day. And that, if I didn’t
resign, they would take it to the church in my absence, while
I was on vacation, during the time following the next Sun
day.
Q. Did the Chairman of the Deacons mention any reason
why you were requested to resign? A. He stated only
rather cryptically, lack of effectiveness. Made no other com
ments about it.
Q. On the next day, which would be a Sunday following
the visit at your home by the Chairman of the Deacons, did
you have an occasion to address the congregation? A.
When now?
Q. On the next day, the following day, Sunday, did you
address the— A. (Interposing) Yes, I did. Normally, I
make the announcements before the service, and during the
announcement period I announced that I had been asked to
resign and was being asked to do that this day and that I
interpreted this as severe pressure to resign, but that I
— 8—
felt that the responsibility for my leaving was not one
which I should take, but one which the congregation should
fake, so I said I was inclined to leave it in their hands and
not f° resign, but leave the choice of whether I stay there
or not up to them.
Q- What did the congregation do then? A. While I
was yet speaking I was interrupted by persons who stood
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
746a
up to make derogatory remarks about me, to criticize my-
just my whole—I don’t know what you call it—just criti
cizing me, period.
Q. What sort of criticisms were made? A. One woman
said, “Aren’t you responsible for opening up this Court
case and for agitating”—I believe she said, or stirring up-
“the case and getting these Negroes transferred?” She may
not have said that last phrase there, but something about
I had stirred up the case and stirred up the Negroes.
Q. Well, we are asking for your best recollection. A.
Another man said, “You really think you are a hero for
what you have done, don’t you?” And other such sarcastic
remarks. Another man said, “You have led us in a way that
the scriptures do not teach. You had led us from the pulpit
in a way that the scriptures do not teach.” And still another
man said, “The congregation will not tolerate the sort of
- 9 -
thing you have said from the pulpit.” And others rose to
my defense and said I hadn’t done anything wrong, but the
weight to what was said was against me.
Another man said the statement that I had desecrate!
the pnlpit. I am not clear in my mind whether he meant that
I desecrated the Sunday previous but was now desecrating,
but I really didn’t say—I said hardly anything this Sunday.
I just more or less stood there.
Q. How long have you been a preacher at the Centerville
Baptist Church? A. I was called to that church on Apri
1 8 , 1 9 6 5 .
Q. You were in continuous service there? A. Yes.
Q. Had you ever had a reaction from the congregation
such as you had on this Sunday? A. On this—I have neveI
seen a congregation like this. No, I never had.
Deposition of Dev. Frank Wood
747a
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
Q. Had you ever heard of any—
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Let me ask the question another way. To your knowl
edge is such a reaction from the congregation an ordinary
or unusual procedure?
— 10—
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form of the ques
tion.
Mr. Kennedy: (To witness) You can answer.
A. Most unusual. You see this was the announcement
period before the service, but due to the interruptions and
the continuing outcry we never got to the service. This
carried on for an hour, until at twelve o’clock people just
started to get up and walk out, and this was, well, unusual,
to put it mildly.
By Mr. Kennedy :
Q. How many persons were in attendance that day? A.
Perhaps between eighty and a hundred. Maybe a few more
than a hundred, I don’t know.
Q. What was the main topic of the discussion from the
congregation? A. Well, it centered around either the
Court papers—in other words, I told the congregation the
Sunday previous that I had been a witness and that now I
was trying to carry out the Court order. I mean I was
trying to lead the congregation in carrying out the Court
order, and there was a good bit of discussion revolved
around that, such as the comment this woman made. And,
748a
in general, it had to do with my—what I had said from the
pulpit.
- 11-
Q. During your tenure with the Centerville Baptist
Church did you have occasion to talk about race to the
congregation on any other time? A. I had preached one
sermon about race back in January of 1966.
Q. What kind of reaction did you get from the congrega
tion then? A. It was a favorable reaction.
Q. Did you have any spontaneous discussion from the
congregation at that time? A. Well, no more than you
usually have as you walk out the door. However, six weeks
after that sermon the Chairman of Deacons said that he
had been thinking about it and that he believed we should
seat all persons who came to the service regardless of race,
and that we should even be prepared to welcome them into
membership of the church. And he said this in the deacons’
meeting in February and the deacons decided that they
would inform the ushers that their opinion was that Ne
groes should be seated. And the deacons also recommended
to the church that the church set up a membership commit
tee to interview persons who apply for membership in the
church.
Q. Did you ever get any Negro applicants? A. No.
- 12-
Q. Did you have any further contact with the Chairman
of the Deacons following the spontaneous discussion? A.
Well, during the discussion, which lasted a whole hour, he
stood up.
Q. Excuse me. What discussion is this? A. This is this
Sunday morning.
Q. After the 31st? A. August the seventh, I think, was
the date. And during that period, during that hour, he
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
749a
stood up and, acting in his capacity as Chairman of Dea
cons, called a meeting of the church for business purposes
the following Sunday and he said this matter will he dis
cussed the following Sunday. I had already told the con
gregation I would be away on vacation the next two Sun
days. So while I was away I called him that Sunday.
Q. Excuse me. This is the seventh day following the
spontaneous discussion? A. Yes. I called him on the 14th
of August. In other words, I left the afternoon of the
seventh. And I was in Dunkirk, New York, or Freedonia—
the two cities are right together. Anyway, I called him on
the 14th. He informed me that by vote of the congrega
tion I had been dismissed as pastor.
Q. Did he mention what was the vote? A. Well, he told
—14—
me that the vote was 83 to 6, and I was later informed that
there were about 25 abstentions.
Q. Did you return to the church? A. Yes. Under the
constitution I had thirty days’ tenure left, and I preached
two sermons during those thirty days, and in the middle—
in other words, I preached the first and the last Sunday—
and in the middle I preached a trial sermon at East Bend
and was called to East Bend on my last date or sermon.
Q. Did you mention race relations in any sermon subse
quent to this Sunday? A. No, no.
Q. Did you have an opinion as to the reason why you
were fired from the Centerville Church ?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form of the ques
tion.
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
A. Yes.
750a
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Proceed. A. Yes.
Q. What is that opinion? A. Due to my involvement
in the federal court case. I believe that was the immediate
reason for the dismissal. Of course, I had been under fire
for having Negro and white children together at my house,
—14-
They were my wife’s students, but this had pretty well
been washed over and we had “a kiss and make up” session
at the church and everything was all right. Well, every
thing was going along smoothly until this happened.
Q. Have you in the course of your work at the Centerville
Church made any innovations in the services? A. No.
Q. Have you made any radical proposals as to tradi
tional doctrine? A. No.
Q. Have you conducted both the religious services and
the missionary activities at the church according to tradi
tional Baptist procedures and— A. Yes.
Q. —and practices? A. Yes.
Q. When did you leave the Centerville Church? A.
Well, as I said, my last sermon was, I believe, on September
the fourth and I left September the fifth.
Q. Where did you go? A. Let me make sure that is
right. I believe it was September the 11th.
Q. Where did you go? A. East Bend
—15-
Mr. Yarborough: What do you mean? On the
eleventh—your last sermon was on the eleventh or
you left on the eleventh?
A. I preached my last sermon on the eleventh and left on
the twelfth. I preached two sermons after I was fired.
August 28th and September the 11th. September the fourth
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
751a
I was preaching a trial sermon at East Bend. I was voted
into the church at East Bend on the eleventh.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. You are still working at the East Bend Church? A.
Yes.
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
Mr. Kennedy: I have no further questions.
Direct Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Beverend Wood, how long did you remain in Franklin
County after your last sermon at Centerville Church? A.
Just a day. Just long enough to move.
Q. You moved your residence, also? A. Yes.
Q. Did you have occasion during the time that you were
here following the court order to attend any meeting or
anything conducted by the Board of Education or any other
group here in reference to implementation of the court
order? A. No. In other words, I didn’t go to the meeting.
—16—
I received an invitation to it but I didn’t go.
Q. To your knowledge did any civic group in Louisburg
conduct any meeting in reference to implementation of the
court order? A. The only knowledge I have of any meet
ing is one sponsored by the School Board itself, and I got
a letter about that. I didn’t hear or know of any other
meetings.
Mr. Chambers: No further questions.
Cross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Wood, I believe you testified before on July the
28th. A. Un-hunh.
752a
Q. In Raleigh? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you went hack to Centerville and told your peo
ple that you had testified? A. Yes.
Q. And then subsequent to your testimony in Raleigh
you received an invitation from the Board to attend a
meeting at Riverside School relative to free choice? A. I
remember receiving an invitation from the Board, yes, sir.
- 1 7 -
Q. And you did not attend for some reason? A. It may
be that I was on vacation or going to be on vacation.
Q. I mean you did not attend, however? A. No.
Q. And, of course, the Centerville Baptist Church is a
congregational type church, isn’t it? A. Oh, yes.
Q. The congregation rules and owns—and rules the
church? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And, of course, I guess it is affiliated with the North
Carolina State Convention? A. Yes.
Q. And the ministers of a congregational type church,
such as a similar Baptist church, are employed by the con
gregation? A. Exactly.
Q. And they are subject to discharge by the congrega
tion? A. Certainly.
Q. In other words, you have no episcopal authority, that
is, bishops or anybody, over you? A. That is correct.
— 18—
Q. And that is the doctrine or the government of that
church? A. That is correct.
Q. And I presume the East Bend Baptist Church is the
same type? A. Exactly, East Bend?
Q. East Bend, yes, sir. And you were informed pursuant
to your telephone call to the Chairman of the Board of
Deacons of Centerville Baptist Church on the 14th of An-
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
753a
gust that the congregation on the previous Sunday had dis
charged you? A. On that Sunday.
Q. On that Sunday? A. On the 14th.
Q. You preached on August the seventh? A. Well, I
never got to preach.
Q. That was a meeting? A. Eight.
Q. And then it turned out to be something of a congre
gational meeting? A. Yes.
Q. Those who were present-—many of them spoke up in
the meeting? A. Correct.
Q. And the Baptist way of operation is that they—many
— 19—
of their matters are settled in the congregation? A. All
matters ?
Q. Yes, sir, are settled by the congregation assembled
in the church? A. Correct. Correct.
Q. That is the normal procedure, including admitting
people to membership? A. That’s correct.
Q. They are voted on by the assembled congregation?
A. That’s right.
Q. And you were called to Centerville on the 18th of
April 1965? A. That’s correct.
Q. And stayed until the eleventh of September, of 1966?
A. That is correct.
Q. And they paid you on through the eleventh? A. That
is correct.
Q. Paid you your salary, what was due you under your
arrangements with the church? A. That’s correct.
Q. Mr. Wood, during the time from August the seventh
on through the eleventh, the Sundays you were there, you
conducted sermons and other sacraments of the church that
you were called upon to, such as marriages, funerals, and
holy communion? A. Yes, I performed the normal duties.
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
754a
- 20-
Q. The normal duties of a minister? A. Correct.
Q. Now, who was the Chairman of the Board of Deacons
from August through September the eleventh? A. Mel
ville Griffin.
Q. Melville? A. Yes. The first initial is B. B. Melville
Griffin.
Q. Can you recall the other members? A. Of the Dea
cons?
Q. Of the Board of Deacons, yes, sir, during that time.
A. I believe I could. Edward Radford. Moses Sykes. Lon
nie Radford. Garner Dement. Earnest Holland Denton.
Q. Earnest Holland Denton? A. Yes. Lee Bowman.
Q. How do you spell that last name? A. B-o-w-m-a-n,
Q. Yes, sir. A. Troy Collins. And Bennie Melville Grif
fin. Does that make eight or nine?
(Discussion off record)
A. There is one more. I will think of him in a minute.
Mr. Kennedy: You said Bennie.
A. Bennie Melville Griffin.
— 21-
Q. (Mr. Yarborough) Melville and Bennie are the same?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right, sir. Mr. Wood, now a woman made remarks
about stirring up the case, and Negroes, you testified
awhile ago. A. Yes.
Q. Who was that lady? A. Mrs. Joe Thomas.
Q. And I believe you stated that a man made a state
ment, in substance, that you think you are a hero. Who
was that gentleman? A. Charlie Raynor.
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
755a
Q. And another man a statement to the effect that you
have led us in a way the scriptures do not teach. A.
Percy Gupton. That is Lloyd’s father.
Q. Percy Gupton, yes, sir. And another man made a
statement, I believe you testified, to the effect that the
congregation will not tolerate what you have said from
the pulpit? A. That is Melville Griffin.
Q. Melville Griffin. That the Chairman of the Board of
Deacons? A. Yes.
Q. And another man made a statement to the effect that
yon had desecrated the pulpit? A. That was Paul Childers.
— 22—
Q. Paul Childers. Is he a Baptist minister himself? A.
Yes, he is.
Q. And he lives close to the church? A. Bight.
Q. And is an ordained minister? A. Yes.
Q. So far as you know? A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall any other names of persons who made
statements that you might in your words describe as
derogatory remarks? If you can recall. A. I can’t recall
any. Those are the ones that stand out.
Q. Now, on your first meeting or the first time that Mr.
Melville Griffin, the Chairman of the Board of Deacons,
called on you about resigning, you stated that it was due
to lack of effectiveness? A. That’s correct.
Q. Do you remember that date? A. That would be Sat-
urday, August the sixth.
Q. And you told him that the congregation should take
the responsibility? A. Well, I told the congregation that,
the next Sunday, August the seventh, that I was inclined
to let them handle it instead of me resign.
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
756a
Q. That’s right, in accordance—according to the govern
ment rules that the congregation does have the responsi
bility of hiring and firing the minister? A. Yes. The
ministers can resign.
Q. But other than the responsibility for hiring and fir
ing, it is the church? A. That is right. Exactly right.
Q. Now, when you were called or entered upon your
parochial or ministerial duties in April of 1965, were you
to serve at the will of the congregation? A. That’s cor
rect.
Q. And that, you say, was your understanding at the
time you took it? A. That’s correct.
Q. And that is the standard procedure in the Missionary
Baptist Church? A. Standard, that’s right.
Q. And the Board of Deacons with the Centerville Bap
tist Church members were elected by the congregation? A.
That’s correct.
Q. And were they on staggered terms or— A. Stag
gered terms, three years each.
Q. And a third of those are rotated off each year? A.
Bight.
s —24-
Q. In your relationship with the East Bend Baptist
Church began officially on the eleventh of September? A.
That’s correct.
Q. And when were you first in contact with the leaders
or officials of the East Bend Baptist Church? A. Well, 1
had received a phone call from the chaplain at Wake Forest
College who said that the pulpit committee were in touch
with him and they were asking for a recommendation. This
was before August the seventh, before the blowup. And
said that I was hoping and expecting to stay in Center-
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
- 2 3 -
757a
ville and that I really wasn’t interested in this church,
but after the thing happened on the seventh I called the
chaplain, Chaplain Hollingsworth, back and asked him if
I could still be interested, and from that time on the con
tacts developed.
Q. So that was on the seventh of August, after your
meeting, after the meeting in the church and prior to the
time you were discharged on the fourteenth! A. That’s
correct.
Q. That you took steps to get in touch with the appro
priate officials at East Bend Church? A. That’s right. I
had been recommended to them by this man, Chaplain
Hollingsworth.
—25—
Q. What county is East Bend in? A. Yadkin.
Q. Yadkin. Then, of course, the members of the Center
ville Baptist Church had the right to choose anyone they
saw fit to be their minister, that was willing to serve, and,
of course, discharge him at any time; it was their pleasure ?
A. Certainly.
Q. And Centerville Baptist Church is an organized re
ligious association church? A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Wood, you were informed by the Chairman of
the Board of Deacons that the vote was 83 to 6, with 25
abstentions. A. Now, he didn’t mention that there were
2o abstentions. This was later told me by a member of
the congregation when I returned, but he did say it was
83 to 6, or whatever the number I called to you.
Q. Yes, sir. So if your information is correct, there
were present on that day—83 and 6 is 89, and 25 is a
hundred fourteen—114? A. That’s correct.
Q- It is a question of mathematics. And 83 of those 114,
according to your information, asked you to leave? A.
That’s right.
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
758a
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
-2 6 -
Q. I believe your wife, during the school year of 1965-66,
was teaching in Henderson! A. That’s correct.
Q. And living in Centerville! A. That’s correct.
Q. And I believe for the current school year she is back
at Duke, or is she with you— A. She was at Duke for
the first semester. She is not in school now.
Q. Yes, sir, but starting in September 1966 she volun
tarily stopped teaching in Vance County or Henderson
and went back to Duke! A. Yes, sir. That’s correct.
Q. That was her plan! A. That’s correct.
Q. To go back to Duke! A. That’s correct.
Mr. Yarborough: Thank you, Mr. Wood.
Mr. Kennedy: I want to go back on redirect for
just one question.
Mr. Yarborough: All right, sir.
Redirect Examination (By Mr. Kennedy):
Q. At the time that the Chairman of the Board of Beac
ons indicated to you that he wanted you to resign had
—27-
you any plans of leaving Centerville Church within the
next year or so! A. No. In fact, I had received two or
three similar offers of jobs during the summer and had
turned them down.
Q. Was it your intention at the time the Chairman ap
proached you to remain at Centerville Church! A. Yes.
I knew after he approached me that I was through. Until
he did I was intending to stay.
Mr. Kennedy: That is all.
759a
Recross-Examination (By Mr. Yarborough):
Q. Do you know why the gentleman at the seminary at
Wake Forest called you about an opening? A. Well, it
wasn’t the seminary; it was Wake Forest College in
Winston-Salem.
Q. Yes. Do you know why he called you prior to your—
to this meeting of—this church meeting? A. Well, he said
to me that this pulpit committee had come to him and that
he was in the process of describing the sort of man that
he thought they needed, and he was using me as an exam
ple of a man just about to be through with the seminary
and this was the sort of man they needed, and he described
me some more and the committee indicated interest in me,
—28—
and so he told the committee that he would contact me.
Q. Do you know—did you get the other calls through
him; you said you received a couple of other calls. A. No.
I had received another call from Wake Forest College,
another man. And another one from—well, there was a
position in Durham coming open and I received word about
that.
Q. Are you a graduate of Wake Forest College? A.
Yes.
Q. What do you call it, the School of Religion? A. No.
Just liberal arts college.
Mr. Yarborough: Thank you, Mr. Wood. That’s
all we have.
Witness excused.
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood
760a
Christine Coppedge, being first duly sworn, was exam
ined and testified as follows:
Direct Examination (By Mr. Kennedy):
Q. State yonr name and address. A. I am Christine
Coppedge, of Route 4, Box 122, Louisburg, North Carolina.
Q. Are you one of the parties to this lawsuit? A. Yes.
- 2 9 -
Q. And you are the mother of Harold Coppedge? A.
Yes.
Q. The student at Edward Best? A. Yes.
Q. Were you a witness in this case previously, Mrs,
Coppedge? A. Yes.
Q. When did you testify? A. Sometime during last sum
mer, or the spring.
Q. Since the last time you testified has there been any
changes in the school your son Harold attended? Where
is he attending now? A. Edward Best High School.
Q. Is that a predominantly white— A. (Interposing)
Well, there are only two Negroes in there. I don’t know
what you would call it really.
Q. Where was he going to school last year? A. Perry’s.
Q. Is that an all Negro school? A. Yes.
Q. Now, directing your attention to the time subsequent
to when you testified for us last summer, have there been
any unusual events occurring at your house? A. Yes.
—30—
Q. Tell us about them. A. Well, since our Harold
started to Edward Best High School, and before, we have
been intimidated by telephone calls, and also, we had a
blast out at the house here.
Mr. Yarborough: A what?
A. A blast. A blast of dynamite, or home-made bomb.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
761a
Q. When did that blast occur? A. March fifth or sixth.
Q. What year? A. 1967.
Q. What time of day was that? A. It was at night,
10:15.
Q. Who was in the house? A. Mrs. Martha Clanton,
Alice Clanton, Harold, and myself.
Q. Your husband, Eeverend Coppedge, where was he?
A. He was in New Jersey.
Q. Did the loud blast that you heard cause any damage?
A. No, other than it knocked some flowers I had off of
the mantle and on the floor and, also, it knocked me almost
off the bed and almost knocked the telephone off the table
I had it sitting on, and it almost knocked Mrs. Clanton
off the chair she was sitting in.
—31—
Q. What did you do following the noise? A. I was
talking on the telephone at the time and I asked the
party to please excuse me. I said, “Something is going-
wrong.” And I jumped up and ran to the window—and
I ran to the window and I looked out and I saw this car
leaving, going out the driveway.
Q- Is that window in the front part of your house? A.
Yes.
Q. And that driveway—is that driveway in the front of
your house? A. Eight.
Q- Is it usual for a car to be driving in your driveway?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form of the ques
tion.
Mr. Kennedy (To Witness): You may answer.
-Y- No, it is not.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
By Mr. Kennedy:
762a
Q. Did you do anything at that time? A. Yes, I did.
Q. What was that? A. I told my son to bring the rifle,
and I fired at it.
Q. At the— A. (Interposing) At the car leaving.
Q. How many times did you fire? A. About sixteen
times.
Q. Did you hit the ear? A. I don’t know. I shot at it.
That is all I know.
- 3 2 -
Q. Had you had any other unusual events happen at yonr
house since the last time you testified for us? A. Yes, I
had—getting hack to the telephone calls. A white girl
called and said to me that she was Harold’s girl friend,
and a white boy called and said he wanted to speak to
Harold, and when I went to get Harold and when Harold
went hack to the telephone, they had hung up on him and
immediately they would call back again—let’s say about
two or three minutes apart—and saying, “I want to speak
to Harold,” and I said, “Forget it,” and I hung up.
Q. Have you gotten any other phone calls of an unusual
nature? A. I told you I have had so many about the
‘damn’ things, each one saying, “ G. D. black son of a bitch,”
“ I want to speak to Harold,” or “ Certainly I don’t want
to talk to you,” or something like that. Well, I’ve got so
many, maybe a hundred or more, just so many, four or
five a day sometimes.
Q. Do the parties identify themselves? A. No.
Q. Have you had occasion to talk to any of your neigh
bors about the court order and freedom of choice plan m
Franklin County? A. Well, when we
—33-
Q. (Interposing) Just answer ‘yes’ or ‘no’. A. Yes.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
By Mr. Kennedy:
763a
Q. What have yon said to your neighbors about the
freedom of choice plan? A. I tried to encourage them to
try to integrate the schools.
Q. How many people have you talked to about this?
A. Well, several. Lots of them, because my husband is a
minister of a church and I have a privilege of talking to
a lots of people, and they told me they are just afraid,
and what has been happening to us, and they just didn’t
want to be bothered, and said, “We don’t live on our
plantation and if we get over there, they will try to make
us move,” or something like that, “And so we had rather
not bother.” They also say to us, “You are crazy for doing
it yourself, to go through as much as you have gone through
with.”
Q. Okay. To your knowledge do you know whether your
husband, Reverend Coppedge, has—has he spoken on the
subject of freedom of choice plan in Franklin County?
A. Yes, indeed, he really have.
Q. Who has he spoken to? A. He has spoken to his
—3 4 -
congregation over at the Haywood Baptist Church.
Q. What is the nature of his comments?
Mr. Yarborough : We object to the form.
A. Well—
By Mr. Kennedy.
Q. What did you hear him say? A. He told his congre
gation the freedom of choice plan would be sent out and
he would like to see as many as possible to make a change
from what it was last year. We were under this interim
court order to try to get the children to go to the school
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
764a
and integrate the schools here, and he thought it would
he a good idea to see what we could do about this.
Q. Going back for a moment to the telephone calls that
you said you received, when was the last telephone call
that you received— A. Wednesday.
Q. That was an unusual telephone call! A. Well, Wed
nesday. It wasn’t too unusual. No more than what we
have been getting before. Wednesday someone called and
said, “I want to speak to somebody.” I didn’t understand
what they said. And I said, “Who is this?” And they said
—I said, “ This is the Coppedge residence,” and they said,
“Well, I got Harold Coppedge,” and ‘kit, kit, grin and
—35-
snickle’ and hung up, and something like that all the time,
And, certainly, you couldn’t be—they couldn’t be getting
the wrong number all the time.
Mr. Kennedy: I have no further questions.
Direct Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mrs. Coppedge, you stated that you had talked to
several people in reference to transferring. Do you mean
that you talked to several people in reference to trans
ferring during the new freedom of choice period ordered
by the court? A. Yes.
Q. Did you also talk to people in reference to trans
ferring for the 1967-68 school year? A. Yes.
Q. Did you talk to several people about transferring—
A. Yes.
Q. Were these people in addition to members of your
church? A. That’s right.
Q. Did you talk to several people at a meeting? A. Yes’
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
765a
Q. Was this a meeting of a civic group here in Franklin
County? A. Sure did.
—36—
Q. What meeting was that? A. I don’t know. We had
this meeting over to Riverside School. I think you were
present there, and also Mr. Schwelb.
Q. Now, did you talk to anyone at a meeting during the
freedom of choice period for the next school year? A. No,
I haven’t.
Q. You had the freedom of choice period here in Franklin
County—have you? A. Right.
Q. You have talked to several parents during this period?
A. That’s right.
Q. Now, these incidents that you were describing, did
these incidents take place during this freedom of choice
period, that is, the freedom of choice period for 1967-68
school year? A. Yes.
Q. Did you have anything to occur at your home imme
diately after the freedom of choice forms were sent out?
A. Well, now, I don’t know anything immediate after or
before.
Q. Immediately, just prior to. A. Yes.
Q. Or just after? A. Yes, sir.
—37—
Q. Anyway, it was right near the freedom of choice
period? A. Right.
Q- To your knowledge did anyone else have any occur
rences at their home during this period? A. No, I don’t
know any.
Q- Now, what occurred at your home or to your family
during this freedom of choice period? I am talking about
the freedom of choice period for the 1967-68 school year.
A. Well, we had this big blast. I don’t know- if it was
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
766a
dynamite or a homemade bomb. We had that. And we had
telephone calls on top of telephone calls.
Q. During this period? A. That period, right.
Q. Or this period? A. That’s right.
Q. Now, yon did say that, or did you say that—please
strike that. For the purpose of the record did you have
occasion to talk to some Negro families during the free
dom of choice period for the 1967-68 school year? A. I
sure did.
Q. Did they express any opinion or—to you as to their
—38-
exercise of choice during this period? A. Yes, they did.
Q. The families you talked to, did any of these families
send their children to integrated schools for next year?
A. No.
Q. And you stated you talked to several families? A.
I really did.
Q. Do you have an opinion as to why they did not send
their children to the integrated schools?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. No, I don’t have any—
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. Just answer ‘yes’ or ‘no’. A. No, I don’t. Only I
know what they told me.
Q. What did they tell you?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. Well, they told me they wouldn’t do it because they
were afraid of what had been happening to us, and they
didn’t have their own plantation.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
767a
Q. Mrs. Coppedge, are there any Negro teachers at
Edward Best to your knowledge ? A. No, no.
Q. To your knowledge— A. No.
Q. —during the freedom of choice period was there any
—3 9 -
communication sent to you or was any communication con
veyed to the Negro parents, or the parents generally, that
teachers would be integrated at the various schools for
the next school year? A. No.
Q. Mrs. Coppedge, I show you answers to interrogatories
that were filed by the defendant—which we would like
marked as Exhibit A, Plaintiffs’ Exhibit A for the pur
poses of this deposition.
Mr. Chambers: Would the defendant have any
objection to substituting the original for that.
Mr. Yarborough: The original is on file with the
Court papers.
Mr. Chambers: We can stipulate that we will
substitute the original?
Mr. Yarborough: Yes, sir.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mrs. Coppedge, this is marked Exhibit B in the in
terrogatories. Did you receive that during this 1967-68
freedom of choice period? A. Yes, I did.
(Discussion off record)
By Mr. Chambers:
Q- We will correct the record. I show you Exhibit C,
as_ distinguished from Exhibit B, and ask you if you re
ceived that? A. Yes.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
By Mr. Chambers:
768a
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
—40—
Q. During the 1967-68 freedom of choice period? A,
Yes.
Q. And you received Exhibit C, a copy similar to Ex
hibit C, rather than Exhibit B ? A. Un-hunh. And I think
you will find two words different in here though, if you
read it.
Mr. Chambers: (To Reporter) Miss Morgan, we
have to correct the record again. We are talking
about Exhibit E-2, rather than Exhibit B or C.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. Now, Mrs. Coppedge, I show you Exhibit E-l and
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit # 1 and ask if you received that or a
copy of something similar to that? A. Yes.
Q. I show you Exhibit E-3 and ask if you received
something similar to that? A. Yes.
Q. I show you Exhibit E-4 and ask you if you received
something similar to that? A. Yes.
Q. That is the envelope? A. Yes.
Q. Did you receive anything else? A. No.
Q. To your knowledge was there any public meeting’ by
—li
the school board in reference to the freedom of choice
period for the 1967-68 school year? A. Yes.
Q. They met with families? A. Well, Mr. Yarborough
—he was over to Edward Best. I don’t know about the—
just how many times, but maybe here, but he was at the
school, Edward Best.
Q. To your knowledge did he go to any other school, or
did any member of the school board? A. Well, I know he
went to one because my husband went to both of the
769a
meetings over to Riverside and Edward Best, too. I don’t
know about the others.
Q. Was a copy of the interim order sent out to the
parents during this school term? A. No.
Q. During this freedom of choice period for next school
year! A. No.
Q. Mrs. Coppedge, how did your son get to Edward Best?
A. Well, he was sent out a choice form.
Q. No, I mean transportation. A. By bus.
Q. How did he get to Perry? A. By bus, Negro bus.
Q. Now, does this same bus carry Negro students to
- 4 2 -
Perry that normally carried students to Perry? A. Yes.
Q. Does it pass your home? A. Yes.
Q. Does this same bus that carried students to Edward
Best carry students to Edward Best? A. Yes.
Q. It passes your home, also? A. Yes.
Q. Does your son participate in any extracurricular ac
tivities at Edward Best? A. No, not other than the glee
Club. He has just joined that.
Q. Just joined the glee club? A. Right.
Q. Now, to your knowledge has there been any activity
between Edward Best and any predominantly Negro or all
Negro high school in the County? A. No, not that I
know of.
Q. Do you know of any activity where the Negro high
school and the white high school participate? A. No. Oh,
yes, on second thought—I am thinking of the—something
agricultural test, or something they were giving the chil
dren there. That is the only thing I know of.
Q- Given to the students where? A. Some kind of test,
—43—
or something. I don’t know what you call it.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
770a
Q. Was that given at Edward Best? A. Yes.
Q. Were students from Perry at this test? A. I don’t
know. I don’t know. Eiverside was.
Q. Eiverside? A. Eight.
Q. To your knowledge to you know the number of Negro
students who have requested transferring to predominantly
white schools for next school year? A. No, I don’t know,
Cross Examination by Mr. Davis:
Q. Mrs. Coppedge, you say you don’t know the number
of students who requested transfers from predominantly
Negro schools to predominantly white schools? A. No,
Q. For the 1967-68 school year? A. No, I don’t know.
Q. To your knowledge you don’t know of any that re
quested transfers that were denied the right to transfer,
do you? A. No, I don’t know.
Q. This contest that you spoke of a moment ago tliat
— 44-
took place at Edward Best High School that students from
Eiverside School attended— A. Yes.
Q. Of course, that was an integrated function of the
schools, wasn’t it? A. I don’t know.
Q. There were colored children from Eiverside School
present, is that right? A. Yes. That is what my son said
I wasn’t there.
Q. Does he take agriculture? A. Yes.
Q. And it was something to do with his course m agri
culture? A. Yes.
Q. And, of course, his agricultural class is integrate,
isn’t it? A. Well, other than just one, him. He is { -
only one that is there.
Q. He is in it? A. Eight.
Q. And the other students are white students? A. M
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
771a
Q. And he told you that his class participated in the
contest that was attended by students from Riverside, is
that right? A. Right.
—45—
Q. Now, you say your son—his name is Harold, is that
right? A. Harold.
Q. Harold? A. Yes.
Q. He has recently joined Edward Best glee club? A.
Bight.
Q. And what grade is your son in? A. Eleventh.
Q. The eleventh grade? A. Right.
Q. Is that the only activity, extracurricular activity, that
your son participates in? A. Yes.
Q. Did your son go out for basketball? A. No.
Q. Did your son go out for baseball? A. No, not that
I know of.
Q. Do you know whether or not your son has applied for
any other extracurricular activity membership in any club?
A. No, I don’t.
Q. You don’t know whether he has applied for any? A.
No.
—46—
Q. You haven’t discussed that with him? A. No, I
haven’t.
Q. Well, so far as you know, then, he has been allowed
to join everything he has asked for while he’s been at
Edward Best? A. Well, I don’t know if he’s asked or not.
Q- So far as you know. A. Well, I wouldn’t say that.
I couldn’t say so far as I know.
Q. Do you know of anything he’s asked to apply to
become a member of that he was denied the right? A.
N°' I’d have to ask him.
Q- Well, do you know whether he’s applied for any
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
772a
membership to any club that he was denied the right to
join? A. No, I don’t.
Q. Now, the bus that your son rides to school—of course,
that bus, the bus route terminates at Edward Best School
in the morning, is that correct? A. Bight.
Q. Of course, it originates at Edward Best School in
the afternoon to take the children home? A. Bight.
Q. And your son rides that bus? A. That’s right.
Q. With other students going to school? A. Bight.
-47-
Q. How many Negroes did you tell Mr. Kennedy at
tended Edward Best School? A. Two.
Q. Two other than your son or counting your son? A
No, counting my son, two.
Q. Does the other child ride the bus with your son? A
Bight.
Q. Now, Mr. Chambers asked you something concerning
an interim order being sent to you along with the docu
ments pertaining to the 1967-68 free choice period. I be
lieve the interim order was sent out to you last fall. Isn’t
that correct? A. No.
Q. Last August? A. No, that is not true. It was printed
in the paper. You were supposed to print it in the paper
and that is the only thing I got. I read the paper every
day.
Q. But you did not receive a copy in the mail? A. No,
I did not.
Q. Did you have a copy of it? A. Yes, I had a copyo:
it.
Q. How did you get your copy? A. They give it to me
up there at this court.
Q. In Baleigh? A. Bight.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
773a
—48—
Q. So far as you know, to the best of your knowledge
the School Board has done everything that the interim
order has required?
Mr. Chambers: We object and instruct the wit
ness not to answer.
Mr. Yarborough: Answer the question or we will
just call it off and get a ruling from the Judge. As
I understand it, we are to enter objections, but
you are instructing the witness not to answer her
question.
(Discussion off record)
Mr. Chambers: We withdraw the instruction.
Answer the question.
Witness: Ask it again.
(Question read)
A. No, I couldn’t say that really.
By Mr. Davis:
Q. Well, what was required by the interim order that
the School Board has not done!
Mr. Chambers: We object to that. We show you
a copy of the interim order. Do you know what—
A. I don’t know it completely. I know one thing they didn’t
do they were supposed to do. They were supposed to en
courage the teachers—this is in the order—to go to the
white schools, and I don’t know any teacher that you have
—49—
encouraged to go. The only thing I know you did—well,
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
774a
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
just maybe—tbey told me—one told me that you talked
to them; you had a meeting and you talked to them and
you told them that they were entitled to pick the school
of their choice as a student. But you didn’t do that
Actually, you didn’t encourage the teachers, and I know
that.
Q. Do you have an opinion—do you know of any teacher
who has applied to teach in a predominately white school
who was denied the right to do so? A. No, I don’t and
I haven’t tried to find out. That is y’all’s responsibility.
That is not mine.
Q. After the interim order was entered in this suit, yon
attended, did you not, a meeting that was held by the
School Board to explain the order? A. Yes, I did.
Q. Where was that meeting held? A. Riverside.
Q. And who conducted the meeting? A. Well, Mr.
Schwelb was there, Mr. Yarborough, Mr. Smith and Mrs,
Dickens and Mrs. York and Mr. Chambers—I don’t know,
That’s all I can remember right now.
Q. They were the people that participated in it? A
Q. Approximately how many parents of students at
tended the meeting? Just your best estimate. A. 'Well,
I don’t know. Maybe—maybe fifty, maybe.
Q. And, of course, the meeting was publicized, wasn’t it'
Parents were notified that there would be a meeting through
the news media? A. No.
Q. Do you know that the people invited were according
to a list furnished by Mr. Chambers ? A. Did I know what-
Q. That the people who were invited to the meeting th®
you just spoke of at Riverside came from a list furnish
the School Board by Mr. Chambers? A. No, I don’t.
775a
Q. You don’t know that? A. No.
Q. Well, was the interim order explained at the meet
ing? A. No.
Q. What took place at the meeting? A. Well, they
spoke about the choice we were going to have, to have
choice forms all over again. We were allowed a—well, we
were—
Q. Did Mr. Chambers have anything to say at the meet
ing? A. Yes.
Q. Of course, Mr. Smith and Mr. Schwelb talked? A.
Yes.
—51—
Q. Now, I believe you said that you attended a meeting
at Edward Best School that was held for the purpose of
explaining— A. No, I didn’t. I said my husband, not me.
Q. Oh, your husband attended? A. Yes.
Q. And Mrs. Clanton attended the meeting, also? A.
Yes.
Q. And the purpose of that meeting was to explain the
1967-68 free choice period? A. I don’t know. We didn’t
know Mr. Yarborough was going to be there. He didn’t
know he was going to be there, and then he saw it; he
was just going for a parents and teachers meeting, that’s
all.
Q. You say Mr. Yarborough attended that meeting? A.
Right. So he said. I wasn’t there.
Q. Your husband told you that? A. Yes.
Q. And your husband also attended a meeting at River
side School, is that right? A. Right.
Q. But you attended neither one of the meetings? A.
No, I didn’t because I was sick at the time.
Q- Was it a PTA meeting that he attended? A. Right.
—52—
Q- At both schools—PTA’s? A. Right.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
776a
Q. Of course, you don’t have any children attending Riv
erside School, do you? A. No. I only have one son.
Q. He attended Edward Best? A. Right.
Q. And your husband is not a member of Riverside PTA,
is he? A. No, he is not.
Q. Do you know whether or not your husband made a
talk at the Riverside PTA? A. Yes. He said he did.
Q. And what did he tell you he talked about? A. I don’t
know. I didn’t ask him what he talked about.
Q. He just told you he made a talk, and that was it!
A. Yes.
Q. And was it the same meeting that Mr. Yarborough
attended? A. Yes.
Q. Now, I believe you told Mr. Kennedy that last Wed
nesday someone called you and made the statement that
they had the wrong number and snickered and hung up!
A. Right.
-53-
Q. Of course, you have received calls before that people
had the wrong number, hadn’t you? A. Also too many,
and it wasn’t the wrong number really.
Q. You have made calls where you dialed the wrong num
ber? A. Yes, but you don’t dial the wrong number four
or five times. You couldn’t do that. Well, that is—well, it
is not impossible, but that was an act of intimidation, nu
merous calls. I would say that is what they are.
Q. Well, that is your impression. A. No, that is true,
because you just actually couldn’t get that many and say
I just have the wrong number.
Q. Of course, you don’t know whether the same Persor'
called each time or not, do you? A. Oh, yes, I do. That is
the very same voice. I have heard it too many times, an
if you don’t believe what I am saying you can bring some
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
777a
thing or somebody out to tap my telephone, or send some
body out to record this and you will find out for yourself.
I have asked the telephone company to do that, but nobody
will do that and nobody seems to care so I have to make
my complaints when these things come up.
—54—
Q. Mrs. Coppedge, I believe you told Mr. Kennedy that
sometime in the past a white girl called your house and
said she was Harold’s girl friend. A. Yes, She called more
than one time.
Q. How do you know she is white? A. I know she is
white. I can distinguish the voice between a white girl and
a Negro girl, or boy, whatever. They just don’t talk alike.
Q. Of course, you don’t know who the person was? A.
No, I don’t, but my son said he got a call about the same
thing, and he said he thought he recognized one of the girls.
Q. Who did he say the girl was? A. I will let him tell
you that.
Q. Did he tell you he thought he knew who the person
was? A. Yes, he did, but I don’t remember the exact
name, but he told me.
Q. Do you remember the first name? A. No, I don’t.
Q- Do you remember the last name? A. No. I said you
will have to ask him that.
Q- You also told Mr. Kennedy that a white boy called.
Y. Right.
—55—
Q. How do you know it was a white boy? A. I know
the voice of a white boy, and I do a colored boy. They just
don’t talk alike.
Q. Do you know what that person was? A. No, I don’t.
I wish I did.
Q. Did you discuss that telephone call with your son?
Yes, I did.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
778a
Q. And did he express an opinion as to who that person
might he? A. No. We have no way of knowing. How can
we see through the phone. I can’t do that. I wish I could.
Maybe we could get some of this stopped.
Q. Now, Mrs. Coppedge, I believe you said on the night
of March fifth of this year— A. (Interposing) Fifth or
sixth, I said.
Q. Fifth or sixth. A. Yes.
Q. There was a loud noise or blast? A. Eight.
Q. That you heard. And it was about 10:15 at night!
A. No, it wasn’t about; it was 10:15 exactly.
Q. You looked at your watch, I take it? A. Yes.
Q. Now, was Mrs. Clanton and her daughter present!
A. Eight.
-56-
Q. At your house? A. Eight.
Q. Do they live at your house? A. No, they don’t.
Q. How far do they live from you? A. Across the street
Q. Eight across the street? A. Eight.
Q. And I believe you live near Mr. Wilbur Gardner, is
that right? A. Eight.
Q. How far do you live from his house? A. Well, sev
eral hundred yards.
Q. Beg your pardon. A. Several hundred yards.
Q. Are there any buildings between yours and Mr. Gard
ner’s house? A. Well, no, other than I have the chicken
house there.
Q. A chicken house between the two? A. Yes, and that
is almost in my yard though. Well, it is in my yard. It is
not almost; it is in my yard, and the only thing that divides
is just a field.
Q. Did you see a flash when you heard the blast?
How could I? I was talking on the phone. No, I didn’t see
anything. I just heard it.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
779a
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
—57—
Q. Well, what room of the house were you in when you
heard it! A. On the front, in my bedroom.
Q. In the front! A. In my bedroom.
Q. Is that on the front of your house! A. Yes, it is.
Q. Did you look out the front window of your bedroom!
A. I sure did.
Q. And you say then you saw a car? A. I did.
Q. Was the car in the road or in the driveway! A. In
the driveway, going out.
Q. Your driveway! A. Right.
Q. Was it backing out or going forward! A. I couldn’t
tell you. It is a possibility that it could have been the park
lights or the backing lights. I couldn’t tell. They didn’t
have any head lamps on, I know, the main ones.
Q. There were no lights on other than the parking lights!
A. Right.
Q. Or the backup lights! A. Right.
Q. Of course, you don’t know what kind of car it was!
—58—
A. No, I don’t. It was too dark to tell.
Q- Of course, you reported the incident concerning the
blast! A. Yes, I did.
Q. To whom! A. Mr. William Dement.
Q. The Sheriff of Franklin County! A. I sure did.
Q- And he investigated that! A. Yes, he came out there
that night. He sent someone out the next morning. I do
not know who he was.
Q- You don’t know who the man was that came out the
next day! A. That’s right.
Q- But they did investigate the incident, didn’t they! A.
That’s right.
780a
Q. And he, the sheriff, came that night as soon as yon
called him! A. That’s—no, not as soon as I called, but
later.
Q. What time would yon say the sheriff arrived! A.
Well, he got there maybe about eleven.
Q. And, of course, you live several miles out of tom,
don’t you, Mrs. Coppedge! A. I live about eight.
-5 9 -
Q. About eight miles! A. Eight.
Q. And the sheriff, of course lives in town! A. I don’t
know where he lives.
Q. You called him at a Louisburg number, didn’t yon!
A. Yes.
Q. You do know that the sheriff didn’t find anything
when he got to your house, don’t you! A. Yes, I do.
Q. He found no hole in your yard! A. Well, actually,
he told me that by it being night he didn’t think he could
see anything, but he said he’d have to come out in the
morning, said he just couldn’t see with only just a flash
light and it is a possibility—and he told me it is a possi
bility, since it had rained—the next day the man that came
out, the next morning—since it had rained that night, and
it had come something like a tornado, strong winds and
rain—it is a possibility the wind could have taken the
paper away, and if you find anything, let me know, and
that’s all he did.
Q. You didn’t see any hole in the yard! A. I d id n t
have to see. I felt it. That’s all I wanted.
Q. Did you see a hole in the yard! A. No.
—60-
Q. And the man that came out the next day didn’t find
any hole in your yard! A. Yes.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
781a
Q. Did you report it to the FBI, Mrs. Coppedge? A.
Yes, I did.
Q. Did they go out to investigate? A. No, they didn’t.
Q. The FBI didn’t come out to investigate the incident?
A. No.
Q. Who did you report this incident to, what member of
the FBI? Do you remember his name? A. I think it is
Mr. Bichard Goldberg.
Q. So, Mrs. Coppedge, you talked to Mr. Goldberg—is
that right? A. No, I didn’t.
Q. Well, I understood you to say you reported it to the
FBI. A. No, I said “we” reported it.
Q. Who is “we” ? A. I mean my husband. I should have
said my husband. I shouldn’t have said “I” .
Q. When did he get back from New Jersey? A. He got
back Tuesday night.
Q. And what night did this blast happen? A. Monday
- 6 1 -
night.
Q. He came back the next day? A. That’s right.
Q. And that is when he called somebody about it? A.
No. He called Wednesday.
Q. Called Wednesday? A. Right.
Q. Did he get back during the day Wednesday—Tues
day, or at night? A. It was almost dark.
Q. It was almost dark? A. Right.
Q- Did he tell you he called Mr. Goldberg? A. No, he
didn’t say “Mr. Goldberg” . I just figured Mr. Goldberg.
That is who he had been calling. Maybe, it could have
been him.
Q- Did he tell you he called the FBI? A. No, he didn’t
say the FBI. I just figured it was. He said he was going
to.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
782a
Q. Mrs. Coppedge, what is the name of the church that
your husband preaches at? A. He has several.
Q. What are the names of them? A. Haywood Baptist
Church, in this County.
Q. Haywood? A. That’s right.
- 62-
Q. And where is that located? A. Out here on the
Henderson highway. That is what I would call it.
Q. Between Louisburg and Henderson? A. Right.
Q. Otf the highway, on the Rocky Ford Road? A. Right.
Q. What other church? A. He pastors at Lees Chapel.
That is in Halifax County.
Q. Lees Chapel? A. Right.
Q. In Halifax? A. County. Bunn Chapel.
Q. Pastor of Bunn Chapel in Nash County? A. Bunn
Chapel.
Q. All right. Any others? A. And also White Oak.
Q. White Oak? A. That’s right. That is in Halifax
County.
Q. All right. Any others? A. No, that’s all.
Q. Now, is he the regular pastor at Haywood Baptist
Church? A. Yes, he is.
— 63-
Q. Is he the regular pastor at the other three Baptist
churches? A. Right.
Q. How often does he preach at the Haywood Baptist
Church? A. Every fourth Sunday.
Q. Preaches at each one every fourth Sunday? A. No.
Preaches at Haywood, the fourth Sunday, and Lees Chapel,
the first Sunday, and Bunn’s Chapel, the third Sunday, and
White Oak on the second Sunday.
Q. And, of course, you heard your husband while preach-
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
783a
ing at Haywood Baptist Church encouraging the congre
gation to exercise their freedom of choice? A. Right.
Q. Who is the Chairman of the Board of Deacons at
Haywood Baptist Church? A. Burwell. Luther Burwell.
Q. Do you know where he lives? A. No, I don’t.
Q. Do you know whether or not he lives in Franklin
County? A. No, I don’t. I don’t know where he lives. I
don’t know where he lives really.
Q. Now, Mrs. Coppedge, didn’t you, in exercising your
- 6 4 -
choice for the 1966-67 school year, during the first free
choice period, didn’t you at that time select Edward Best
School for your son? A. Yes.
Q. And, of course, his application to Edward Best School,
or his request to transfer, was approved. Isn’t that cor
rect? A. Yes.
Q. And then at the—during the second free choice period,
which was ordered by the Court, you again designated Ed
ward Best as his choice. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. And that request was approved. Is that right? A.
I don’t know.
Q. Well, he did go to Edward Best during the 1966-67
school year, didn’t he? A. Yes.
Q. And don’t you know that during the second free
choice period he was assigned to the Edward Best School?
A. No.
Q. You don’t know that? A. No.
Q. But you do know that he attended the Edward Best
School. Is that right? A. That’s right. He’s attended for
—65—
this term, hut I don’t know whether he will be—whether
they will grant the request or not.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
784a
Q. No, I didn’t mean to mislead yon. For the 1966-67
school year, the school year we are in now. A. Yes.
Q. You exercised a second choice? A. Yes.
Q. Or you went through the second period of free choice?
A. Yes.
Q. And, of course, the second choice that you exercised
was as a result of an interim order that was entered in this
matter? A. Well, the first time he was rejected, when I
made the first choice, and then the second time we were
given a second chance and then it was granted.
Q. Yes, for this school year? A. Yes. We were given
two choices.
Q. And on each occasion you indicated Edward Best as
your son’s choice? A. Right.
Q. And on each occasion your request was approved by
the School Board—is that right? A. Right.
Q. Now, Mrs. Coppedge, during the recently completed
— 66-
freedom of choice period you again designated Edward
Best School for your son for the school year 1967-68, is
that right? A. Yes.
Q. And have you received the assignment for your son!
A. No.
Q. For next year. Mrs. Coppedge, in response to a ques
tion from Mr. Kennedy, I believe you said you were a party
to this lawsuit? A. Yes.
Q. But, actually, it is your husband who is a party to the
lawsuit, isn’t it, and not yourself? A. Well, we are all
three, because we all had something to do with it.
Q. Well, do you know what name appears in the heading
of the case? A. Yes.
Q. Whose name is that? A. Harold.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
785a
Q. Of coarse, your name—Harold who? A. Beg your
pardon.
Q. Harold who? A. Harold Douglas Coppedge.
Q. And, of course, your name is not on it, or not included
in the heading to the lawsuit, is it? A. No.
—67—
Mr. Kennedy: If you know.
A. No, it is not.
By Mr. Davis:
Q. Mrs. Coppedge, did I understand you to say that a
teacher told you that the court order had not been com
plied with by the School Board? A. No, I didn’t say that.
Q. That is, regarding the assignment of teachers? A.
No, I didn’t say that.
Q. What did you say in reference to a teacher? A. I
said—
Mr. Chambers: Objection. The record will speak
for itself.
By Mr. Davis:
Q. Who is the teacher that you had reference to? A. I
refuse to answer.
Mr. Chambers: Strike that answer.
(Discussion off record)
By Mr. Davis:
Q- Now, Mrs. Coppedge, who was the teacher, what is
the name of the teacher that you had reference to?
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
786a
Mr. Chambers: Objection. We object. And you
have to answer it.
A. Well, this person that told me this said, “Don’t tell that
I said this because I could either—lose my job and I don’t
- 68-
want to have anything to do with it, but they did tell us—
and that is the words she used—he did tell us that we would
have a choice as the students had and it would be sent out,”
and my husband also said at the meeting that Mr. Yar
borough held over to Riverside that night it was mentioned
in that meeting, that someone asked about the teachers’
choice and he said it would be a later date set for the
teachers to have a meeting and they would talk about this.
Q. Now, I ask you again: what is the name of the
teacher that you talked to about this! A. I promised I
wouldn’t tell and I can’t tell.
Mr. Kennedy: He asked the question and he is
entitled to the ansAver.
A. Well, I just can’t tell that because I told her I wouldn’t
because I don’t want her to think hard of me. See, I would
get into a lot of trouble, and I just can’t.
(Discussion off record)
A. Well, since you insist that you really want to know, the
teacher is Mrs. Suitt. I don’t know her first name.
By Mr. Davis:
Q. And where does she teach, Mrs. Coppedge! A. I
—69-
don’t know. She used to teach at Perry’s, but I don’t know
if she does now.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
787a
Q. It is “Mrs.” Suitt? A. Mrs., yes, sir.
Q. Now, Mrs. Coppedge, other than Mr. Wilbur Gardner,
who are yonr other neighbors? A. Well, let’s see.
Q. Of course, I believe you said Mrs. Clanton lives across
the road from you? A. Right. She is the only one—no,
it’s one more, a colored neighbor I have.
Q. Who is the other— A. Mr. Willie Frank Wright,
Mr. and Mrs. Willie Frank Wright, and Mr. Floyd Murray,
M-u-r-r-a-y.
Q. Floyd? A. Right.
Q. How far does he live from you? A. Just down at
the end of my driveway on the other side of the street.
Q. Approximately how far is that? A. About—
Q. Just your best estimate. A. Seventy-five or eighty
feet.
Q. Seventy-five or eighty feet. Now, how far does Mr.
Willie Frank Wright live from you? A. I don’t know.
- 7 0 -
Just down below Mrs. Clanton.
Q. Approximately how far ? A. I don’t know. I couldn’t
tell you.
Q. Could you estimate? A. Well it’s about as far as
from here to the bank.
Q. Could you look at that distance and give us an esti
mate as to how far it is? A. No.
Mr. Yarborough: You can see the bank from here.
Mr. Chambers: We will stipulate it is about 300
yards from here to the bank.
Mr. Yarborough: I ’d say 100 to 125.
Mr. Kennedy: 125 yards.
Mr. Chambers: Whatever you say, Mr. Yarbor
ough.
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
788a
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
By Mr. Davis:
Q. Now, I believe Mr. May lives near you, is that right!
A. That’s right.
Q. How far does he live from you? A. I don’t know; it’s
not far.
Q. Does he live as close to you as Mr. Murray? A. No.
Q. Does he live as close to you as Mr. Wright? A. No.
Q. Further than Mr. Wright? A. Eight.
- 7 1 -
Q. Does he live as close to you as Mrs. Gardner? A. No.
Q. His land adjoins Mr. May’s land, adjoins your land,
is that right? A. No, it does not.
Q. Who is in between yours? A. Mr. Ira Bowden.
Q, Does Mr. May live in sight of your house? A. Yes,I
can see it from my house.
Q. How far does Mr. Ira Bowden live from your home!
A. Well, I don’t know. It’s not too far from Mr. May.
Mr. Kennedy: Tell him if you know in how many
feet or how many car lengths.
A. I don’t know that.
By Mr. Davis:
Q. Does Mr. Bowden live in between you and Mr. May!
A. Right.
Q. Now, how far is Mrs. Clanton’s house from yours!
A. It is not much further than—well, maybe abou t— let’s
see—two or three yards. No, about ten yards further,
further than Mr. Murray.
Q. So it would be about 120 feet maybe? A. Maybe.
Mr. Davis: That’s all.
789a
Deposition of Christine Coppedge
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all.
Mr. Kennedy: That is all.
Redirect Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mrs. Coppedge, yon indicated that the name of the
teacher that you gave a moment ago was of a teacher who
teaches in Franklin County. A. Bight.
Q. And she is still teaching in the Franklin County sys
tem? A. Bight.
Mr. Chambers: No further questions.
Recross Examination by Mr. Davis:
Q. Mrs. Coppedge, in the conversation with Mrs. Suitt,
where did this conversation take place? A. Well, at—in
Durham, North Carolina, at Duke Hospital.
Q. What was the occasion for you and Mrs. Suitt being
in Durham at Duke Hospital? A. Well, I went there to
get a checkup because I had to get some plastic surgery
some time back.
Q. You mean you were a patient in the hospital? A.
No, I wasn’t. I went to get a checkup there.
Q- Was Mrs. Suitt there? A. No, she just went back to
get a checkup, also. She had an operation last year, I think
she told me.
—73—
Q. Did you all go together? A. No.
Q- Just met her there? A. Bight.
Q. Now, in the course of your conversation did Mrs.
°uitt express a desire to teach in a school other than the
one she was teaching in? A. No, she didn’t.
— 72—
790a
Mr. Davis: That’s all.
Mr. Kennedy: That is all.
Witness excused.
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
A lice Fay Clanton being first duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows:
Direct Examination by Mr. Kennedy:
Q. State your name, address, and age, please. A. Alice
Fay Clanton, age fifteen, Route 4, Box 124, Louisburg.
Q. Miss Clanton, I ’d like to have you speak up nice and
clear and loud so everybody can hear you. For the record,
what is your race! A. Negro.
Q. Where do you go to school now! A. Edward Best
— 7 4 -
High School.
Q. What grade are you in? A. Ninth.
Q. Where did you go last year and what grade were yon
in last year? A. I went to Perry’s High School last year
and I was in the eighth grade.
Q. Is Perry’s High School an all Negro school? A. Yes.
Q. Is Edward Best a predominantly white school? A.
Yes.
Q. Do you know all of the teachers and school board
employees at Edward Best? A. Yes.
Q. Are there any Negro teachers at Edward Best? A.
No.
Q. Were there last year any white teachers at Perry’s?
A. No.
Q. Do you live in the neighborhood where Mrs. Coppedge
lives? A. Yes.
791a
Q. Do you know her son, Harold Coppedge? A. Yes.
Q. Is he also a student at Edward Best? A. Yes.
—75—
Q. What grade is he in? A. Eleventh.
Q. When did you choose to go to Edward Best? A. Last
summer.
Q. How close to the opening of school did you make
your choice to go to Edward Best? A. I guess it was—
it was in July.
Q. July? A. Yes.
Q. I see. While you’ve been a student at Edward Best
has anything unusual happened? A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us what was that? A. Well, Harold was
going to fight Bob Gardner.
Q. Are you referring to Harold Coppedge? A. Yes.
Q. Is Bob Gardner a white student? A. Yes.
Q. Did they actually end up in a fight? A. No.
Q. Have you been treated nicely by the students at Ed
ward Best? A. No.
Q. In what way are you not treated nicely? A. Well,
—76—
they call names.
Q. What names? A. They called ‘Nigger’ and they say
mimicing things about me so that I can hear them.
Q. What sort of mimicing things? A. Well, when I
went in the bathroom, they say, “Don’t tell me! Let me
guess who.” And things like that. They want to guess
who I am.
Q. Did they call any other kind of names? A. Not me.
Q- How many times 'were you called ‘Nigger’ ? A. I can
remember twice.
Q. And you recall this. Were you called ‘Nigger’ by
some of the white students at the school? A. Yes.
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
792a
Q. Do you normally eat your lunch at Edward Best!
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you eat your lunch? Do you eat at tables
in the cafeteria? A. Yes.
Q. Anything unusual ever happen at lunch? A. Yes.
When I sit down beside someone, they get up and move.
Q. Are these persons who get up, are they students?
A. Yes.
- 7 7 -
Q. Are they finished with their meals when they move?
A. Yes.
Q. They get up with their plates and move their plates?
A. Yes.
Q. How often has that happened? A. Well, I don’t really
know, but it has happened more than twice I know.
Q. When was the most recent time that that happened?
A. Monday.
Q. Of this week? A. Yes.
Q. What were your reasons for choosing to go to Ed
ward Best? A. Well, I thought I would learn more and
I thought it was a good school.
Q. I see. Have you noticed any differences between the
physical facilities at Perry’s and at Edward Best High
School? A. Yes.
Q. What was some of those differences? A. Well, at
Edward Best we have lockers and at Perry’s we don’t have
lockers.
Q. Is there an individual locker for each student at
Edward Best? A. No.
—78-
Q. You have a locker? A. Yes.
Q. Do you put your clothes and hooks in a locker? A.
Yes.
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
793a
Q. Last year at Perry’s did you have a locker! A. No.
Q. Did any of the students last year at Perry’s have
lockers! A. No.
Q. Perry’s also is a high school—is that correct? A.
Yes.
Q. The same as Edward Best? A. Yes.
Q. You are aware of the freedom of choice forms that
come out every year that you make your choice of the
school you want to go to next year, are you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When was the choice period held this year? A. I
don’t remember.
Q. Have you already made your choice for the school
you want to go to next year? A. Yes.
Q. And how long ago did you make that choice? A. I
guess it was a month ago, I guess.
Q. A month ago ? A. Yes.
—79—
Q. Before you made your choice for the school year, to
go to for next year, starting next September, did you have
occasion to talk to other children who live in your com
munity? A. Yes.
Q. Other Negro children? A. Yes.
Q. Did you talk to them about the schools that they
were going to choose for next year? A. Yes.
Q. What other things did you talk about? A. Well, they
were asking me how it was and everything while we were
talking.
Q. Did anybody ask you where you were going to go next
year? A. No.
Q. Did you ask any students where they were going to
go next year? A. Yes.
Q. Did you ask if any of the Negro students were going
to go to Edward Best? A. Yes.
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
Q. How many people did you ask about this?
remember three I asked.
A. I can
- 80-
Q. Now, did you specifically ask them if they would go
with you to Edward Best? A. Yes.
Q. What did they tell you? A. No, they wouldn’t go
because some of their parents they thought wouldn’t let
them go. They didn’t know, but they just didn’t want to be
involved, and all of that.
Q. Were these students—how old were these students
that you were talking to? A. I think two of them are
fourteen and one is about sixteen.
Q. They are presently students in the Franklin County
school system? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know if any of the students that you asked
to go to Edward Best—do you know where they are going
to go next year? A. Yes.
Q. Are they going to go to Edward Best? A. No.
Q. Are they going to go to any other of the predominantly
white schools in the County? A. No.
Q. Are they going to go to Negro schools? A. Yes.
- 81'
Q. Have you made any friends at Edward Best? A
Yes.
Q. Have you had occasion to sit by yourself at lunch
time? A. Yes.
Q. How many times ? A. Almost every day I sit by my
self.
Q. How big is the table that you sit at? How many
students can sit at the table where you sit? A. Seven.
Q. Did any of the white students ever sit with yon af
lunchtime? A. Well, the first day I ate lunch two giris
sat with me.
795a
Q. You say most of the time nobody sits with you at the
table!
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form of that
question.
A. Yes.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Have you made your choice for school for next year!
A. Yes.
Q. Where are you going to go to school next year!
A. Perry’s.
— 82—
Q. What grade will you be in! A. Tenth.
Q. Tenth grade. Are you passing all of your subjects!
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any reasons why you chose to switch
from Edward Best to go to Perry’s for next year! A.
Yes.
Q. Tell us those reasons! A. Well, the people at Ed
ward Best, the children, aren’t friendly enough for me.
Q. Do you think that that—
Mr. Yarborough: Well, we will object to the form
of the question.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q- Will it be easier for you to make friends at Edward
Best—correction—at Perry’s ?
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
A. Yes.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Have there been any other unusual incidents oc
curring in any of the classrooms at Edward Best! A,
Yes.
Q. Tell us about those, please. A. Well, during the
middle of the winter—
Mr. Yarborough: Middle of what?
A. The winter they would raise the windows where I
— 83-
sat and it would be cold over there and they wouldn’t put
them down, or the teacher would put them—or, you know,
down, or she would ask them to put them down.
Q. Did anybody say anything about the breeze coming in
the window? A. Yes.
Q. What was said? A. Well, this boy told the girl that
it was two breezes, one from the window and one from
the Negro.
Q. Did you ever see the word ‘Nigger’ written in the
classroom? A. Yes.
Q. Where was it written? A. On two seats and on a
radiator.
Q. What student was assigned to sit in these seats where
you saw the word ‘Nigger’ written? A. Well, I don’t know
really.
Q. Were they written so you could see them from where
you were sitting? A. I was sitting on these seats.
Q. The word which read ‘Nigger’ was written on the seat
where you were sitting? A. Yes.
797a
Q. The word ‘Nigger’ that was written on the radiator,
was it close by where yon were sitting? A. Yes.
—84—
Q. Is it still there today? A. Yes.
Q. Did you see any other signs? A. Well, they write
‘K K K ’ all over the radiators, too.
Q. Is there anything else written with the letters ‘K K K ’ ?
A. They write ‘K K K kills Niggers’.
Q. I’m sorry. I didn’t hear that. A. I say ‘K K K kills
Niggers’ and ‘K K K hate Niggers’.
Q. Have you ever found, in addition to the words that
were written on your seat, have you ever found anything
else written on your seat? A. No.
Q. Do you take a sewing course ? A. Yes.
Q. Anything unusual happen in the sewing class? A.
Yes.
Q. What was that? A. Today a girl, when I walked
past, she put her material to her nose and pretended that
she smelled something.
Q. Has this ever happened previously, that a person
would pretend they smell something? A. Yes.
—85—
Q. Where did this happen? A. In the halls.
Q. Can you tell us a little bit about what happens? A.
Well, I was passing down the hall and I remember two
boys they would be standing in the doorway when I
pass and when I pass they put their hand to their nose
and they say, “I smell something. Don’t you?” And they’d
be talking to each other like that so I could hear it.
Q- Do any of the Negro children ask you about your ex
periences at Edward Best? A. Yes.
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
798a
Q. What do you—what do you tell them that goes on
at Edward Best? A. Well, I tell them what—what hap
pens; when they ask me about something I tell them
about it.
Q. Did any of the other Negro students who don’t go to
Edward Best, do they ask you about how you are treated
up there? A. Yes.
Q. Do you tell them about some of the things you have
told us today? A. No.
Q. You don’t tell them? A. No.
- 86-
Q. Do you have an opinion on the effect on you that some
Negro teachers at Edward Best would have as far as yon
staying at Edward Best? Just yes or no. A. Yes.
Q. WThat effect—what is that effect? What effect would
it have on your decision to stay or leave Edward Best if
there were some Negro teachers at Edward Best? A. I
guess I would stay.
Q. Would it have made any difference in your decision
to leave Edward Best for Perry’s if there had been other
Negro students going to Edward Best next year? A. Yes.
Q. Would you have wanted to stay if there had been
more Negro students at Edward Best next year? A. Yes.
Q. Have you had anything unusual happen to you when
you walk in the corridors? A. Yes.
Q. What happens? A. The boys bump me.
Q. Is it crowded in the corridors when the boys bump
you? A. No.
O. These are the white boys, male students at the school,
— 87-
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
is that correct? A. Yes.
799a
Mr. Kennedy: Thank yon.
Mr. Chambers: I have no questions.
Cross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Now, Alice, you are fifteen years old? A. Yes.
Q. And you are in the ninth grade this year at Edward
Best High School! A. Yes.
Q. Now, who is your homeroom teacher? A. Mrs.
Whitaker.
Q. Mrs. Whitaker. Do you remember her first name?
A. Patricia.
Q. And do you have—you take several courses, do you
not? A. Yes.
Q. And did you go from room to room for the courses or
do the teachers come to your room! A. Prom room to
room.
Q. Did you go out to the other courses? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And who is the principal? A. Mr. Alford.
Q. Mr. Johnnie Alford ? A. Yes.
— 88—
Q. And you know him, of course, since you’ve been there
very well? A. Yes.
Q. And you know Mrs. Whitaker very well? A. Yes.
Q- And Mr. Alford never has mistreated you, has he?
A. No.
Q. He’s been very nice to you, hasn’t he? A. Yes.
Q' And Mrs. Whitaker has been pleasant and nice to
you, hasn’t she? A. Yes.
Q- She has not mistreated you? A. No.
Q- How about any of your other teachers? A. Well,
Mrs. Griffin.
Q- Who? A. Mrs. Griffin.
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
800a
Q. Do you remember her first name? A. Joyce.
Q. Mrs. Joyce Griffin. What does she teach? A. English.
Q. And what did you say about her ? A. She seems to be
sarcastic.
- 8 9 -
Q. Seems to be what? A. Sarcastic.
Q. Sarcastic to you? A. Yes.
Q. You are making good grades on English, are you!
A. No.
Q. You are passing it, aren’t you? Are you? A. Yes.
Q. Anybody else in her room—is she sarcastic to any
body else in her room? A. Yes.
Q. She is sarcastic to other students, too? A. Yes.
Q. The rest of your teachers treat you all right, do they?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, last school year, which would be the 1965-66
school year, you were at Perry’s? A. Yes.
Q. And when you made your free choice to go to Edward
Best for the 1966-67 school year, this current school year,
who made that choice? Did you or did some one else?
A. Well, I told my mother that I wanted to go.
Q. Who signed the form? A. Mother.
—90-
Q. Your mother signed it for the 1966-67 school year?
A. Yeah.
Q. And then for the 1967-68 school year, which would
be the next coming school year, you signed it yourself,
didn’t you? A. Yes.
Q. And you live with your mother? A. Yes.
Q. And who is your father? A. Well, he’s dead.
Q. Was his name—what kin is Willie Clanton to you?
A. He is my brother.
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
801a
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
Q. Your brother? A. Yes.
Q. Where does he live now? A. Well, he is in Fayette
ville.
Q. Now, Alice, you made a reference to Harold’s fight
with Bob Gardner. That was Harold Coppedge, wasn’t
it? A. Yes.
Q. And you went to the office, school office, and told
Mr. Alford that Harold and Bob were about to have a
fight? A. Yes.
Q. And he went down there and broke it up, didn’t he?
—91—
A. Yes.
Q. Just as quick as he could? A. Yes.
Q. And stopped whatever the trouble was? A. Yes.
Q. Have you ever seen any other fights at Edward Best?
A. No.
Q. Ever noticed any between any other students at all?
A. No.
Q. Are you saying then that the only trouble the whole
year that you saw between two boys about the same age
was between Harold and Bob? A. Yes.
Q. And both of those boys are about the same age?
A. Yes.
Q. And about the same size, aren’t they? A. Yes.
Q. Now, all the students in your grade were about your
age, weren’t they? Most of them about fifteen years old?
A. Yes.
Q. There are boys and girls in there? A. Yes.
Q. And you say some of those fifteen-year-old children
write the word on your seat? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know who did it? A. No.
— 92—
802a
Q. You said they wrote the word on the radiators'? A.
Yes.
Q. They were children in your room so far as you know?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you say your windows would be raised and the
teacher would require the students to close them? A. Yes.
Q. Who were those students that would raise the win
dows? A. Deborah Nash.
Q. Who? A. Deborah Nash.
Q. All right. A. Phillip Champion.
Q. And who else? A. Sheral Frazier.
Q. Sheral Frazier. Is that a boy or girl? A. Girl.
Q. And Deborah is a girl? A. Yes.
Q. And Phillip is a boy? A. Yes.
Q. And all of them are students in your grade? A. Yes.
— 93-
Q. About fifteen years old? A. Yes.
Q. How many windows does your room have? A. I
think it’s five.
Q. Five. And so they raised it and the teacher would
tell them to put it down, or put it down herself? A. Yes.
Q. What teacher was that? A. Mrs. Whitaker.
Q. Does it happen in any other grade except Mrs.
Whitaker, any other room except the room Mrs. Whitaker
was in charge? A. Yes.
Q. Who were the teachers there? A. Mrs. Neal.
Q. Mrs. who? A. Neal.
Q. And what would she do? A. She would let them
down.
Q. And you got along with Mrs. Whitaker all right, and
Mrs. Neal, didn’t you? A. Yes.
Q. What does Mrs. Neal teach? A. Home ec, physical
science, health, and physical education.
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
—94—
Q. What does Mrs. Whitaker teach! A. Algebra I and
Algebra II, and math.
Q. Now, you eat lunch every day at the cafeteria at Ed
ward Best! A. Almost.
Q. And you pay what—thirty cents! A. Yes.
Q. Now, several weeks ago you had a slip, did you not,
relative to the income in your family! A. Yes.
Q. Who completed that! A. My mother.
Q. And you took it back? A. Yes.
Q. And you say yours is what your mother checked on
it, didn’t you? A. Yes, but I don’t remember.
Q. Don’t you know that she checked that her income
was three thousand dollars or less in a year? A. Yes.
Q. And do you know, or you know, don’t you, that chil
dren in certain schools whose parents make less than three
thousand dollars can get reduced price or free meals?
—95—
A. Yes.
Q. You know that?
Mr. Kennedy: Object to the relevancy.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. You know that? A. Yes.
Q. And you know that at Perry’s school that you went
to last year and have asked to go back to for the next
coming year that they have a program of free meals or
reduced price meals? A. Yes.
Q- To children whose mother or father make less than
three thousand a year? A. Yes.
Q. And they do not have that program at Edward Best?
A. No.
804a
Q. Everybody has to pay thirty cents'? A. Yes.
Q. That sits in the cafeteria.
Mr. Chambers: We object to that, too.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. And you said that the reason for your change from
Edward Best to Perry’s for next year is that the children
are more friendly at Perry’s? A. Yes.
Q. You went from the first grade through the eighth
— 96—
grade at Perry’s? A. Yes.
Q. And many of those children at Perry’s are children
that have been going to school with you, in the same room,
from the first grade right on up until you left there last
year? A. Yes.
Q. And you think most of them are your friends that
you went to school with all of these years? A. Yes.
Q. And so you say that most of your friends are students
at Perry’s? A. Yes.
Q. And you told Mr. Leon White—you know him, don’t
you? A. Yes.
Q. He works for the Board of Education. A. Yes.
Q. And is a colored man? A. Yes.
Q. And you told him that your reason for changing back
to Perry’s was that your friends were at Perry’s? A. Yes.
Q. He talked to you and to your mother? A. Yes.
Q. Just a short—a week or two ago? A. Yes.
— 97—
Q. And do you know he is the home visitor for the
Board of Education? A. No.
Q. You know he works for the Board though? A. Yes.
Q. You don’t know that he is a home visitor; his job is
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
805a
to go into the homes and talk to the students and the
parents? A. No.
Q. And when Mr. Leon White was at your home, he
talked to you at your home, didn’t he? A. Well, we were
at the Coppedge’s.
Q. And Mr. White was there. You say you talked to
Mr. Leon White at the Coppedge residence? A. Yes.
Q. And you didn’t tell him about any difficulty that you
had or trouble with the others, did you? A. No.
Q. And how many times did you ever complain to Mr.
Coppedge—beg your pardon—to Mr. Johnnie Alford, the
principal, about your treatment? A. Well, it was—I can
remember twice.
Q. What did you complain to him about? A. When I
was going down the hall and this boy bumped me and then
he said, “Look at that Nigger” and then—
—98—
Q. And what did you do when you complained to Mr.
Alford? What did he do? A. He talked to the boy.
Q. He did look into it? A. Yes.
Q. Who was the boy? A. Jerry Wayne Boone.
Q. Boone? A. Yes.
Q. What is the other complaint? A. When we were on
the bus these boys were talking about the cross that was
burned in front of the Coppedge’s house, and they said they
wished they had burned the house down, and then they
were singing ‘K K K a n d N A A C P’.
Q. And when was that? A. Well, that was back in
September or O ctober.
Q. Soon after you started to school? A. Yes.
Q. And they were talking about a cross and they were
singing? A. Yes.
Q- And did you tell Mr. Alford about that? A. Yes
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
806a
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
Q And whta did he do about that? A. He talked to
them and one of the boys came and apologized to me.
Q. One did apologize to you after Mr.— A. Yes.
Q. After Mr. Alford had talked to him? A. Yes.
Q. On those incidents yon weren’t hurt, were you, phy
sically? A. No.
Q. Which one of he boys was it that apologized? A.
Steve Upchurch.
Q. Steve Upchurch? A. Yes.
Q. Did you accept the apology? A. Yes.
Q. Then do you know whether or not Mr. Alford re
quested or demanded any other boy to apologize to you?
A. No.
Q. Who were the other boys, except Steve? A. Bob
Gardner.
Q. Anybody else? A. No.
0. There were two boys, and how many students ride
— 100-
on the bus? A. Well, I don’t know really.
Q. When you get on it, are you at the end of the run or
at the beginning of it? A. Well, I am almost at the end.
Q. So it is a big bus? A. Yes.
Q. And it is pretty crowded by the time you get on? A.
Yes.
Q. And so there are forty or fifty other boys and girls
on it? A. No, there are not that many.
Q. Thirty or forty? A. I guess.
Q. And you ride the bus that takes the children to the
Edward Best School? A. Yes.
Q. Now, when you went to Perry’s you rode a bus that
took the children to the Perry’s School? A. Yes.
807a
Q. You are passing all of your work, I believe? A.
Yes.
Q. And you are expecting to get promoted? A. Yes.
Q. And the time you were bumped in the hall—when was
that? The beginning of the school year, or when? A. At
— 101—
the beginning of the school year.
Q. So both of these incidents, the incident about being
bumped in the hall by Jerry Wayne Boone and on the bus
when Steve Upchurch and Bob Gardner were talking about
some things, were both soon after school opened? A. Yes.
Q. And you complained to Mr. Alford about this? A.
Yes.
Q. And he looked into it and one boy apologized to vou?
A. Yes.
Q. And you accepted his apology? A. Yes.
Q. And he is still going to school too, is he? A. Yes.
Q. How far does Steve Upchurch live from you? Do you
know? A. No.
Q. How far does Bob Gardner live from you? A. I
don’t know.
Q. That is Mr. Wilbur Gardner’s boy, or who? A. No,
it was Durwood’s boy.
Q. Well, Mr. Wilbur Gardner is dead? A. Yes.
Q- And Mr. Wilbur Gardner doesn’t have any children
- 102-
in school? A. No.
Q. He’s got children but they are older than school age,
aren’t they A. Yes.
Q- Did you ever make any complaints to vour teachers?
A. Yes.
Q. Mho did you complain to? A. Mrs. Whitaker.
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
808a
Q. What did she do! A. Well, she didn’t do anything
beeanse she didn’t know who had done what I complained
about.
Q. You didn’t give her any names! A. No. I didn’t
know myself.
Q. So there was not much she could have done then if
she didn’t know who it was, was it! A. No.
Q. Who was the girl—you say ‘today’ in your sewing
class! A. Yes.
Q. Who was that girl! A. Clara Jean Brown.
Q. Brown! A. Yes.
Q. Where does she live! Do you know! A. No.
—103-
Q. Was she about your age! A. She is sixteen.
Q. Sixteen! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Within a year of your age! A. Yes.
Q. Now, Alice, when you were talking to Mr. Leon White,
were you telling him the truth when you told him the rea
son you were going back! A. Yes.
Q. And all you told him was that your friends were at
Perry’s! A. Yes.
Q. During the conversation! A. Yes.
Q. And she talked with him, too, right at the same time!
A. Yes.
Q. Was Mrs. Coppedge there! A. Well, she was in
another room.
Q. You were at her house! A. Yes.
Q. What were vou all doing there—visiting! A. Yes.
—104—
Q. You know your uncle, Willie Clanton, don’t yon? Y
Yes.
Q. And he did live in Louisburg, or close to Louisbuig
up until about a year ago? A. Yes.
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
809a
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
Q. What sort of work is he in in Fayetteville? A. He
works in the dietitian part of the Veterans Hospital.
Q. Veterans Hospital, right near Fayetteville? A. Yes.
Q. And he did work here in a lumber mill? A. A barber
shop.
Q. Lumber mill and also a barber shop and the cleaning
business, didn’t he? A. Yes.
Q. And at the time he left he was president of the County
chapter of NAACP, wasn’t he? A. I don’t know.
Q. Yon don’t know that? A. No.
Q. Your uncle now has a civil service job at the Veterans
Administration Hospital? A. Yes.
Q. And he left because he wanted to go into that line of
work? A. Yes.
—105—
Q. You say you were passing in the hall and two boys
pretended to be smelling something. Do you remember
who those boys were? A. Yes.
Q. Who were they? A. Steve Upchurch and Don Boone.
Q. Steve Upchurch and who else? A. Don Boone.
Q. Don, D-O-N? A. Yes.
Q. Now, was that—when was that? A. Well, that was
back in December.
Q- In December? A. Yes.
Q- how, the section in which you live—your family and
Mr. and Mrs. Wright and Mr. and Mrs. Coppedge are about
t e only colored people that live right in there, aren’t they?
A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. Gardner is a white family—Mr. Wilbur Gard
ner ls a white family? A. Yes.
Q- Mr. Ira Bowden, a white family? A. Yes.
Q- And Mr. Burtice May? A. Yes.
— 106
810a
Q. His is a white family? A. Yes.
Q. And who else is the white families there? A. Mr,
Floyd Murray.
Q. Mr. Floyd Murray is white? A. Yes.
Q. And except for yourself and the Wright family and
the Coppedge family, most of all the others are white!
A. Yes.
Q. Do your people farm or just have a home? A. No,
we don’t farm. We just have a home.
Q. Does your mother own it? A. No.
Q. Who owns it? A. Mr. Moore. I don’t remember Ms
first name.
Q. Mr. Moore? A. Yes.
Q. Now, where does he live?
Mr. Chambers: We enter an objection.
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
A. I don’t know.
By Mr. Yarborough:
-107'
Q. Does he live in that neighborhood? A. Yes.
Mr. Chambers: Object.
A. Yes.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Moore lives in it? A. Yes.
Q. Close to you all? A. Yes.
Q. And you can’t recall his first name? A. No.
Q. How long have you all lived there? A. One yea!’
811a
Q. And where did you live prior to that? A. Well, we
lived about a mile down the road, on the Coppedge farm.
Q. Was that Beverend Luther Coppedge or his father’s
farm! A. No, Mr. Albert Coppedge.
Q. Who is he—a white or colored man? A. White.
Q. You say a mile down the road, down back east or back
towards Justice or back towards Edward Best? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Farther down, to the Nash County line? A. Yes.
Q. Down towards Mr. Zaek Perry, down that way? A.
Yes.
—108—
Q- Who is in your family there at home—you and your
mother? A. And my sister and my nephew.
Q. How old is your sister? A. I guess she is twenty-
four.
Q. She is out of school? A. Yes.
Q. Your nephew—how old is he? A. Three.
Q. Three. He has not yet started to school. Down at
Perry’s Mr. Wilson is the principal? A. Yes.
Q. And he has always treated you all right? A. Yes.
Q. And Mrs. Sadie Suitt teaches there? A. Yes.
Q- Has she ever taught you? A. No.
Q- W hat does she teach— high sch oo l o r e lem en tary?
A. Elementary.
Q. And you know her, don’t you? A. Yes.
Q And the teachers at Perry’s always treated you all
right, didn’t they? A. Yes.
—109—
Q. And all of your teachers at Perry’s as long as you
were there were colored? A. Yes.
Q- And you knew, of course, last year that you had a
free choice to go to any school? A. Yes.
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
812a
Q. And yon know that this year yon had a free choice
to go to any school in the County! A. Yes.
Q. And you read over that literature that came! A.
Yes.
Q. The Board of Education sent out to you several
papers? A. Yes.
Q. And you looked at it or read as much of it as you
wanted? A. Yes.
Q. And filled out the form and sent it back to the school
or mailed it over here? A. Mailed it.
Q. Mailed it hack to Mr. Smith here? A. Yes.
Q. In the envelope that they put it in that you got? A,
Yes.
Q. And do you know that these forms and envelope
— 110-
were exactly like the government prescribed?
Mr. Kennedy: We object to that.
Mr. Yarborough: Let her answer, if she knows.
I asked her if she knew.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Do you know that those forms were exactly like the
government prescribed? A. No.
Q. And you read in those forms that the Board of Edu
cation—neither the Board of Education or any—
Mr. Kennedy: We are going to object to that.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. —or any member of the Board—
Mr. Yarborough: She will show the objection.
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
813a
Q. Did you read in the literature that you got that
neither the Board of Education or any person connected
with the school could attempt to persuade you either way
on the selection of your school?
Mr. Kennedy: We object to the form.
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
By Mr. Yarborough:
A. Yes.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. That was in the letter, wasn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. And nobody connected with the Board attempted to
persuade or dissuade you in your school selection, did they?
A. No.
— Ill—
Q. And so far as you are concerned you picked exactly
the school you wanted to go?
Mr. Kennedy: We object to that.
A. Yes.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. And sent it back to Mr. Smith, I will ask you if any
member of the Board of Education or any employee of the
Board or any person connected with the school has ever
attempted to influence you one way or another? A. No.
Q. And that is what you understand free choice to be?
Mr. Kennedy: We object.
Mr. Yarborough: Let her answer. Enter the ob
jection.
814a
Q. That is what you understand free choice to be? A,
Yes.
Q. Now, Alice, you said that you thought Edward Best
was a better school, and that building—the main school
building—there is very old, isn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. And Perry’s has got several right new buildings? A,
Yes.
Q. And Edward Best—the only new building there is
— 112-
the gymnasium? A. Yes.
Q. And Perry’s has got one newer than that, hasn’t it!
A. Yes.
Q. And did you ever look at the date on the front of
Edward Best—when it was built? A. Yes.
Q. What was that date? A. 1925.
Q. 1925? A. Yes.
Q. And that is the main school building? A. Yes.
Q. And they’ve got a wooden shop, I believe ? A. Yes.
Q. And a fairly new gymnasium? A. Yes.
Q. What grade are you in this year? A. Ninth.
Q. Is that what you call freshman or sophomore? A.
Freshman.
Q. Now, you said Edward Best had lockers? A. Yes.
Q. And did not have them at Perry’s? A. Yes.
0 I will ask you if vou don’t know that the lockers
^ —113-
are bought by the schools themselves, the parents or the
children in the schools?
Mr. Kennedy: Objection.
Mr. Chambers: Objection.
Mr. Yarborough: Answer if you know.
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
By Mr. Yarborough:
815a
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
A. I don’t know.
By Mr. Yarborough :
Q. That is the only difference yon saw in the two physical
facilities! A. Well, now. Edward Best seems to have
more things like—we had projections.
Q. What! A. Overhead projections.
Q. Have yon been back to Perry’s and know that they had
overhead projections this year! A. I went, bnt I didn’t
see any.
Q. Did you ask anybody? A. No.
Q. I will ask yon, Alice, if yon don’t know that Perry’s
School has more film strip projections and such equip
ment than Edward Best has?
Mr. Kennedy: Objection.
Mr. Chambers: Objection.
Mr. Yarborough: I will ask her if she knows.
A. I don’t know.
By Mr. Yarborough:
—114—
Q. You haven’t inquired either, have you? A. No.
Q. And so you said projections. Did you know that they
had overhead projections at Edward Best when you applied
to go there this year? A. No, but I thought it.
Q- You did what? A. I thought it.
Q. And you know they did not have one at Perry’s last
year? A. Did I know it?
Q. What is that? A. I didn’t, but I didn’t think they
did.
816a
Q. And yon don’t think they’ve got any now either, do
you? A. Well, I don’t know.
Q. Do you know that they could have lockers at Perry’s
if the people there would buy them like they do at Edward
Best?
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
Mr. Kennedy: Objection.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. You didn’t ask anybody at Edward Best why they
had lockers there, did you?
Mr. Kennedy: Objection. Answer the qeustion.
A. No.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Did you know they had lockers at Edward Best when
you made your choice this year?
—115—
Mr. Chambers: We object to that. That is repeti
tious.
Mr. Yarborough: I asked if she knew they had
lockers. I asked about projections.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. So you didn’t know they had them when you were
making your choice for this year—lockers? A. No.
Q. And your mother usually went to the PTA meetings
at Edward Best, didn’t she? A. Yes.
Q. They publish an annual at Edward Best name
“ Eagle”— is that right? A. Yes.
817a
Q. And your picture is in it for this year? A. Yes.
Q. For the freshman class? A. Yes.
Q. You have seen one? A. Yes.
Q. And your picture is in it, along with the other boys
and girls in your class? A. Yes.
Q. Right in its regular order? A. Yes.
—116—
Q. How well do you know Mr. Leon White ? How many
times have you ever seen him? A. This was my first time.
Q. He was a pleasant, nice man, wasn’t he? A. Yes.
Q. And you got along with your teachers at Edward
Best all right, including the principal, except Mrs. G-riffin
that you said was sarcastic with you and other students?
A. Yes.
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all. Thank you.
Redirect Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Do you know Mr. Leon White’s official position with
the School Board? A. No.
Q. And you say the time that he came out to your home
first time that you saw him? A. Yes.
Q. Did you not say that you would go back to Edward
Best if more Negro students were going there? A. Yes.
Q. And you would feel better in going back if you had
some Negro teachers there? A. Yes.
—117—
Mr. Yarborough: You objected to my being repeti
tious.
Mr. Chambers: We just want to bring home
what the witness has stated.
818a
Q. Now, you say you complained to Mrs. Whitaker about
these incidents or some of the incidents that occurred to
you—right? A. Yes.
Q. You say that you didn’t know the names of the people
who did what you were complaining about? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, did Mrs. Whitaker say anything to the class!
A. No. They were gone.
Q. Did she say anything to the class when they returned!
A. No.
Q. All right. Did you complain to any other teacher
about these incidents? A. Yes.
Q. "Who was that? A. Mrs. Neal.
Q. Now, did you know the names of the people who did
these things that you were complaining about? A. Yes.
Q. What did she do? A. Well, I think she talked to
them. I didn’t see her.
—118-
Q. You didn’t hear any more of it? A. No.
Q. Did the School Board ever explain to you that the
lunch programs that are now at Perry’s under the E S E A
program would be transferable to Edward Best if y01
would qualify—your family would qualify for it? A. No,
not that I can remember.
Q. They never explained that to you? A. No, not that
I can remember.
Q. Did the students ever explain—the Negro students
ever explain to you why they were not going to Edward
Best or any of the other predominantly white schools? A.
Well, yes.
Q. What did they state to you? A. They didn’t thinh
their parents would allow them to go.
Q. Now, Mr. Yarborough asked you about the teachers
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
By Mr. Chambers:
819a
at Perry, and yon said yon knew the principal and you
knew the teachers there ? A. Yes.
Q. And these are all Negro teachers! A. Yes.
Q. And the same students yon are talking about, they
would feel better about going hack to Edward Best if they
would transfer some Negro teachers to Edward Best! A.
- 1 1 9 -
Yes.
Q. Mr. Yarborough asked you if your family and the
Coppedge’s and one other family were the only ones in your
neighborhood. Did you know where the Negro students in
your area went to school prior to the Board’s plan of 1965!
A. Yes.
Q. Where did they go to school! A. Perry’s.
Q. Where did the white students in your area go to
school? A. Edward Best.
Q. Are the Negro families, with the exception of the
Coppedge’s and you, still going to Perry’s? A. Yes.
Q. And the white families still are going to Edward Best?
A. Yes.
Q. Aren’t the Negro students still going to Perry’s still
riding a separate bus? A. Yes.
Q. And the white students going to Edward Best still
riding a separate bus? A. Yes.
Q. In talking to Mr. White about why you were trans
ferring back, Mr. Yarborough stated you told him that your
— 120-
friends were at Perry’s? A. Yes.
Q. Did these incidents at Edward Best have an effect on
your decision?
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
Mr. Y a rb o ro u g h : Object to the fo rm .
820a
A. Yes.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. They did? A. Yes.
Q. How did this effect your decision? A. They weren’t
friendly.
Q. And—the students at Edward Best? A. Yes.
Q. And if your friends were going to Edward Best would
you transfer to Edward Best? A. Yes.
Q. Now, you mentioned also about a fight about to occur
between Harold Coppedge and Bob Gardner. Were you
there when they had the argument? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what it was about? A. Yes.
Q. What was it about? A. Some hand signs that had
been given on Friday.
Q. What did the hand signs say? A. I don’t know.
— 121-
Q. Do you recall what was said between the two? A. No.
Mr. Chambers: I have no further questions.
Recross Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. One thing about these busses—when you went to
Perry’s you rode on a bus that served Perry’s School? A.
Yes.
Q. And when you transferred to Edward Best you rode
on a bus that served Edward Best—that’s right, isn’t it?
A. Yes.
Q. Perry’s bus picked up students along that road going
to Perry’s? A. Yes.
Q. And the Edward Best busses pick up students tna
were going to Edward Best? A. Yes.
Q. That is exactly right, isn’t it? A. Yes.
Deposition of Alice Fay Clanton
M r. Chambers: (To witness) You can answer it.
821a
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all. Thank you.
Mr. Kennedy: I have no further questions.
Witness excused.
—4—
# * # # #
Margaret Elaine F ogg, being first duly sworn, testified
as follows:
Direct Examination by Mr. Kennedy:
Q. State your name, age and address, please. A. My
name is Margaret Elaine Fogg.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. What is your name again, please!
Elaine Fogg.
By Mr. Kennedy:
A. Margaret
—5—
Q- And your age and address. A. Age fourteen; Route
3, Box 5-A.
Q. What town! What city? A. Louisburg.
Q. Where do you go to school? A. Louisburg High.
Q. What race do you belong to? A. Negro.
Q. Where did you go to school last year? A. At River
side.
Q- Is that an all Negro school? A. That’s right.
Q- And is Louisburg a predominantly white school? A.
No. Some Negroes go there.
Q. The question was, is Louisburg a predominantly white
school? A. Oh, yes.
Q' What grade are you in now? A. The eighth.
Q- What is the name of the street that you live on? A.
t live on Route 3, on the Henderson Highway.
822a
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
Q. Is that also known as the Bypass, the bypass through
- 6-
401? A. No.
Q. It is not?
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Isn’t Highway 401 where yon live? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Directly across from the cemetery? A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Kennedy.
Q. It is right at the edge of the Town of Louisburg? A,
That’s right.
Q. When did yon choose to go to Lonisbnrg? A. It was
the second time when the choice came np to go to the school
you want to go. In the month of August.
Q. What year? A. (No answer)
Q. Last year? A. Last year. 1966.
Q. When did school start? A. In August or the first of
September.
Q. Following the opening of school, did any unusual
event happen at your house? A. Yes.
Q. What was that? A. Our house was shot on.
Q. What time of day or night was that? A. It was at
night, I think a quarter after one.
Q. Were you asleep at the time? A. Yes, I was.
Q. Were there other persons in the house at the
A. Yes.
Q. Who were they? A . My mother, my father and my
two sisters.
Q. Did you hear anything? A. Yes.
Q. What did you hear ? A. I heard the bullets when they
hit the top of the house. Sounded like thunder. I liear
them when they hit.
823a
Q. Is the roof of your house made out of some kind of
metal? A. Yes.
Q. Did you see any kind of damage done by the bullets?
A. Yes.
Q. Describe that, please. A. It was a bullet in the
record player, and when it hit there was a little piggy bank
at the end of the desk, and it was broken and spattered on
— 8—
the floor.
Q. Was there any damage to the window? A. No.
Q. Any damage to the screen? A. Yes. There was a
little piece of wood peeled off on the side.
Q. Were there any other holes in the front of the house?
A. Yes.
Q. How many were there? A. I am not sure. But I
think there were eight along by the window outside.
Q. Was there any damage done to the roof? A. Yes.
There were some bullet holes on top of the roof.
Q. Was the damage done by what you call the bullet
holes, is that on the front of the house, the side or the
hack? A. On the front.
Q. And your house faces the road? A. That’s right.
Q. Are there any other members of your family who are
presently attending school? A. Yes. My sister.
—9—
Q. What is her name? A. Brenda Fogg.
Q. Where does she go to school? A. Louisburg.
Q- What grade is she in? A. In the tenth grade.
Q. She was also at the house the night the damage was
done? A. That’s right.
Q. How do you get to school? A. I ride the bus.
Q. Are there other Negro students riding the bus? A.
Yes.
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
824a
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
Q. Your sister rides the bus with you? A. Yes.
Q. What is the number of that bus? Do you remember!
A. No. 78.
Q. Where do you pick the bus up? A. We get on right
in front of the cemetery.
Q. Have you been assigned to a particular seat on the
bus? A. Yes.
Q. Where do you sit, in the front, the middle or the
- 10-
back? A. In the back.
Q. Are there other students assigned to the same
that you sit in? A. Yes.
Q. Who are they? A. It is my sister, Brenda Fogg, and
Claude Earle Floyd.
Q. Is Claude Floyd also a Negro? A. Yes.
Q. In addition to yourself and your sister and Mr. Floyd,
are there other Negro students riding the bus? A. Yes.
Q. Who are they? A. Deborah Long, Maxine Davis and
Shirley Davis.
Q. Are they also assigned seats on the bus? A. Yes.
Q. Where do they sit? A. In the back.
Q. Do they sit together in one seat? A. Yes.
Q. Where is the seat where these last three students sit
in relation to the seat where you and your sister and Mr.
Floyd sit? A. They sit on the second seat from the back.
Q. And where is your seat? A. On the third seat fro®
the back. .
Q. So you sit in front of these other three students?
That’s right. ,
Q. In addition to yourself and your sister and - ■
Floyd and the other three Negro students, are there any
other Negro students on the bus? A. No.
825a
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
Q. Is the bus pretty well filled up! A. Yes.
Q. Are the other students that fill the bus white students 1
A. Yes.
Q. Are the six Negro students that ride the bus all as
signed seats together in the back of the bus? A. Yes.
Q. Have you ever been called a name at school? A. Yes.
Q. What name have you been called? A. A son-of-a-
bitch.
Q. Called any other name? A. Yes.
— 12—
Q. What is that? A. A Negro.
Q. How many times have you been called a Negro? A.
About five.
Q. Who called you that? Were they students that called
yon this name? A. Yes.
Q. Were they students that called you a son-of-a-bitch?
A. Yes.
Q. How many times have you been called a son-of-a-
bitch? A. One.
Q. Did you ever get any notes at school? A. Yes.
Q. Where did you get the note? A. From off my desk.
Q. In the classroom? A. Yes.
Q. Is this the desk that you were assigned to sit in? A.
That’s right.
Q- What did the note say? A. You old stinking Negro.
% Mr. Yarborough:
—13—
Q- What, now, please? A. Old stinking Negro.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q- Are there any other Negro students in that particular
c assroom where you found the note? A. Yes.
826a
Q. Who? A. Shirley Davis.
Q. Okay. Are the rest of the students in that class white!
A. Yes.
Q. How many students are there altogether? A. I think
twenty-nine or thirty.
Q. Have you ever seen any other note, any other notes
or writing? A. Yes.
Q. That are unusual? Were these writings that yon saw,
'were they offensive to you? A. Yes.
Q. Where did you see them? A. Sticking up in a girl’s
book. She had them up in her book.
Q. Could you read the notes from where you were sitting?
A. Yes.
-1 4 -
Q. Did you ask to read the notes? A. No.
Q. How did you come to read the notes? A. I was
looking over that way, and I saw the note sitting up in her
book.
Q. What did the note say? A. One said President John
son was a Negro lover, and the other one said all the good
people stay here and you Negroes go to Yiet Nam.
Q. Have there been any other offensive remarks made
to you at school? A. No.
Q. Any remarks made to you about your family? A. No.
Q. When you got this note on your desk that said “old
stinking Negro” , what did you do with it? A. I gave it to
my teacher.
Q. What did the teacher do ? A. I don’t know. I think
gave it to Mr. Fox. I am not sure.
Q. Who? A. Mr. Fox.
Q. Who is he ? A. The principal.
-1 5 -
Q. Did you ever find out who wrote the note? A. Yes.
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
827a
Q. You did? A. Yes.
Q. "Who wrote the note ? A. Clay Arnold.
By Mr. Yarborough :
Q. What is the name? A. Clay Arnold.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. How did you find out that he did it? A. There was
a boy in my room named Eugene Lester. He said he just
as well to go ahead and tell everybody, because everybody
knowed Clay Arnold did it.
Q. Do you know if any action was ever taken against
Clay Arnold? A. No, I don’t.
Q. How did you get assigned to the seats that you sit
in in the school bus that takes you to school? A. Mr. Fox
told us that the Board of Education assigns the seats.
By Mr. Yarborough:
—16—
Q. What was that again? A. Mr. Fox told us that the
Board of Education assigns us the seats that we are sitting-
in now.
% Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Were you assigned to those seats the first day of
school? A. No.
Q. When were you assigned to those seats? A. About
the fourth month that we were in school.
Q. Are you passing all your courses? A. No. I am
stunted in one. That is math.
Q' What grade will you be in next year, if you get pro
moted? A. Ninth.
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
828a
Q. Are you planning to go back to Louisburg next year!
A. Yes.
Q. Is your sister going to go back! A. Yes.
Q. That is all I have.
Mr. Kenedy: Mr. Clayton?
Direct Examination by Mr. Clayton:
Q. Other than what you have already stated, are there
any more abuses that have occurred to you that you can
-1 7 -
think of? A. Yes.
Q. What? A. One downtown.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. One what? A. I said one occurred downtown.
By Mr. Clayton:
Q. When was this? A. I don’t know. I don’t remember
when.
Q. Do you remember what month it was? A. No, hut it
was along in the first opening of school.
Q. What was the nature of that abuse? A. Well, we
were downtown and we went in the stores.
Q. You say “we” . Who? Who are “we” ? A. Martha
Gill, myself and Brenda Fogg.
Q. Why did you go downtown? A. We went in these
stores.
Q. What store? A. We went in Bainey’s Jewelry Shop,
Fox’s Department Store and then Rose’s Dime Store.
Q. Yes. A. And when we came back to Rose’s, we wen
in Rose’s to get some candy. I did. And this girl, Nancy
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
—18—
Ascue. I don’t know the other girl she was with, was stand
ing np here, and I went np there to get some candy and
Nancy Ascue said, “I don’t know why she was standing up
there, because she don’t have any money to buy anything.”
I asked Nancy, I said, “ Nancy, what did you say?” And
she didn’t say nothin. I said, “You don’t know who you
are messing with.” And she walked over to the card counter
and we walked out.
Q. Did you know her ? A. Yes.
Q. Is she a student? A. Yes.
Q. Is she in your class? A. Yes.
Q. Now, is there anything else? A. Bertha Fuller once
downtown. This was about the first opening of school, too.
Bertha Fuller, Geraldine Gill and Balinda King and my
self were standing together with Geraldine Gill. We were
standing downtown and Bertha Fuller threw a piece of
paper over there and she started running, and Geraldine
Gill went off after her. She went in Bose’s. Geraldine
—19—
went off after her and we went behind Geraldine, and when
we got in Bose’s Dime Store she ran up under the clerk.
Q- When you say “she” , call the name of the person
}ou know. A. Bertha Fuller. We went in Bose’s Dime
Store. Bertha Fuller was in Bose’s Dime Store and Bertha
Fuller ran up behind the clerk and I asked Bertha why
did she throw that piece of paper, and Bertha told me
s e wasn t throwing it at us. She was throwing it at this
°y behind us. There wasn’t any boy behind us.
Q- Who is Bertha Fuller? A. A girl in my room.
Q- Is she white or Negro? A. White.
Q- All right.
830a
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
Mr. Clayton: That is all.
Cross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Now, this trouble you said you had with the white
girl named Bertha Fuller, she is about your age, is that
right? A. Yes.
Q. She threw a piece of paper and you got an idea that
- 20-
she threw it at you? A. No, sir. She was throwing it at
Geraldine Gill.
Q. Two or three of you all chased her into the dime
store ? A. That’s right.
Q. Bight after her? Bight on the Main Street in Louis-
burg? A. Yes.
Q. And then she said she was throwing it at some hoy!
A. That’s right.
Q. And you took the position there was no boy around,
is that right? A. Yes, sir.
Q. She didn’t hit you all with a piece of paper, did she!
A. Geraldine Gill.
Q. Did the paper hurt her? A. I don’t know.
Q. What size paper? A. A small piece of paper.
Q. A candy wrapper or what? A. No, just a small piece
of paper.
Q. Just regular paper? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you ran into the dime store, chased her into
—21
there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You went after her because you were mad, werent
you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how many of you all? Three? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And one of her? A. Yes, sir.
831a
Q. And she had to run behind a clerk to get away from
you all? A. I don’t know.
Q. She was running away from you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you all were running after her? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And she ran behind a clerk in the store? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And she said she wasn’t throwing it at you all at
all? A. Yes.
Q. And this other incident downtown, Margaret, was a
young lady, a girl in your room named Nancy Ascue? A.
Yes, sir.
— 22—
Q. About your age and size? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And some other girl, they were talking and you
thought she was talking about you? A. Nancy, she did.
Q. Did she call your name? A. No.
Q. She was talking to another white girl? A. Yes.
Q. And said something considered to be reflecting on you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you took it up right then? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was on the Main Street of Louisburg? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. In the store on the main street? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Right at the busy corner in Louisburg? A. Yes.
Q. And there are generally policemen standing right
there? A. Yes, sir.
—23—
Q- Most all the time on the corner? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Almost in front of Rose’s Dime Store, isn’t it, between
there and the bank? A. Yes.
Q. And that girl, Nancy Ascue, walked away from you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q-̂ How many were with you then? Three, weren’t there?
• es, including myself.
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
832a
Q. You and Martha Grill and Brenda Fogg? Who is
Brenda, your sister? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And who is Martha Gill? A. My first cousin.
Q. Does she go to Louisburg School? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who is her father? A. Otis Gill.
Q. So you took it up and were going to settle that to
your satisfaction right there? A. Yes.
Q. Now, you live at almost the last stop of the school
bus, coming into Louisburg? A. Yes, sir.
-2 4 -
Q. Does the school bus stop any more after it passes your
house ? A. Once.
Q. You live almost at the last stop? A. Yes.
Q. And you get a seat on the bus? A. Yes.
Q. And you live at the second stop leaving in the after
noons? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you take a seat? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And there are some standing up on the bus, aren’t
there? A. No, sir.
Q. What? A. No.
Q. You don’t ever see anybody standing on the bus? A.
Sometimes, hut most of the times they will be sitting with
some other children.
Q . Sometimes there are more people than there are seats!
A. Yes, sir.
O. And some stand? A. Yes, sir.
-25 -
Q. And those that stand are white? A. Yes.
Q. Is there anything wrong with your seat, the one they
assigned you? A. No.
Q. And are you complaining about the seat they assign
you being the wrong seat or anything? A. Well, I dont
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
833a
understand why they assign us in the back and we are next
to the second to get on.
Q. Somebody has to sit back there, don’t they? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And it stops in front of your house? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And all you have got to do in getting on, don’t have
to cross the road? A. No, sir.
Q. And in getting on, the bus is headed the other way?
The bus stops, you cross the road and the bus waits and
pulls off? Stops the traffic. The bus stops the traffic, doesn’t
it? A. Yes.
Q. And you have been there now one hundred and sixty
or so days, haven’t you? A. I think it’s been four years
—26—
we have been down there.
Q. I mean you have been riding that bus one hundred
and sixty days this year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. School is one hundred and eighty days. You know
that, don’t you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it gets out the last of May? A. Yes.
Q. And the bus always stops for you when you are there,
doesn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. And always you ride it every afternoon, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you are complaining—your only complaint is that
you are sitting the third seat from the back, isn’t it? A.
(Nods affirmatively.)
Q. Where had you rather sit? At the front? A. I think
we should sit down as we get on. I think the children that
get on first should go to the back.
—27—
Q. How do you get on, line up to get on? A. You mean
iu the morning?
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
834a
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
Q. In the afternoons. A. No.
Q. You are complaining then about the way they run the
bus system, even though every day you have been on it,
you have gotten a seat, haven’t you? A. Yes.
Q. And one seat is just like another, isn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever make any complaint to the teacher or
Mr. Fox about your seat? A. No, not that I know of.
Q. Now, that was assigned about four months after the
beginning of school? A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. Fox told you that the Board of Education-
A. (Interposing): He announced it on the bus, everyone
was on the bus and he announced it.
Q. What did he announce ? A. He told us that the Board
of Education assigned us these seats that we were sitting
in, and we would have to sit there for the rest of the yea1'
Q. And so you did do it? A. Yes.
-28-
Q. Who is the driver of the bus? A. Ronald Peoples.
Q. And there were about how many students at Louis-
burg School? Six or seven hundred? A. I don’t know, to
tell you the truth.
Q. A whole lot of them? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you are going there because your father or moth
er picked that school for you to go to? A. I picked it mj
own self. , ;
Q. Did you sign the choice form? A. For the first tune.
Q. Yes. A. No, not the first time.
Q. You are there this year because your mother or fa®!
signed for you, aren’t you? A. Yes, sir. ^
Q. And they chose your school during the summer o
1966, the Louisburg School? A. Yes.
Q. And you were assigned to the school just like .
chose? A. (Nods affirmatively.)
835a
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
—29—
Q. And you went there on the opening day? A. (Nods
affirmatively.)
Q. And you have been there every day, unless you were
sick, haven’t you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you would be there today, if you were not down
here, wouldn’t you? A. Yes.
Q. And there were five other colored children, except
yourself, in addition to yourself, riding the bus? A. (Nods
affirmatively.)
Q. And they ride it every day they come to school, so far
as you know? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that is the bus that serves Louisburg School? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. It goes to the school and stops? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it is there every afternoon when school is out?
A. Yes.
Q. And it is called Louisburg School bus, Number Sev
enty-Eight? A. Yes.
—30—
Q. How many buses do they run? A. I don’t know.
Q. Have you ever counted them? They are all lined up
out in the front, aren’t they? A. Yes, sir. I ain’t ever
counted them.
Q. There are a whole lot of them? A. Yes.
(Discussion off record.)
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q' Now, who is your room teacher? A. Mrs. Gardner.
Q- Mrs. Gardner? A. Yes.
Q- What does she teach? A. What does she teach me?
Q- Yes. You are in the eighth grade, I believe? A. Yes.
836a
Q. And one teacher takes yon right on through the day,
doesn’t she? A. No. We exchange classes.
Q. What does Mrs. Gardner teach? A. She teaches me
history. And geography.
Q. History and geography? A. Yes, sir.
-31 -
Q. Now, you say you found a note? A. Yes.
Q. One time? A. (Nods affirmatively.)
Q. And you gave it to who, Mrs. Gardner? A. Yes.
Q. And Eugene Lester is a white hoy? A. Yes.
Q. Is he the little hoy that has one eye? A. Yes.
Q. Lost his eye in a wreck? A. (Nods affirmatively.)
Q. And you say it was written by Clay Arnold? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. He is about fourteen years old? A. I think he is
about sixteen.
Q. Is he in your class? A. Yes, sir.
Q. All about your age, aren’t they? A. Yes.
Q. And twenty-nine or thirty students are in that room?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you the only colored child in it? A. No.
—32-
Q. Who is the other one? A. Shirley Mae Davis.
Q. Shirley Mae Davis ? A. Yes.
Q. And your parents chose Louisburg School for you this
year, for the year you are going to now? A. Yes.
Q. And you chose it for the next year, the same school
A. Yes. . ̂ .
Q. And you want to go back there, because you signe
the form? A. Yes. .
Q. During the regular time that everybody got for®5
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
A . Y es .
837a
Q. It was mailed to your father or mother, and they
gave it to you to fill out, didn’t they? A. Yes.
Q. And you expect to be reassigned there this coming-
year? A. Yes.
Q. And what was that Floyd hoy named? Claude Floyd?
A. Yes.
—33—
Q. What grade is he in? A. He is in the seventh.
Q. And he rides the bus with you? A. Yes.
Q. He lives down the road from you? A. He lives on the
other side.
Q. Further on up the road from you? A. Yes.
Q. Who is your father? A. Mr. Joe C. Fogg.
Q. Josephus? A. Joe C. His real name is John Clinton
Fogg.
Q. And you all live just north of Reverend and Mrs.
Dunstan? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Next to him? A. Yes. We stay the third house from
him.
Q. And who lives next to you? A. On this side is Mr.
Robert Williams.
Q- Robert Williams? A. Yes.
Q. This side, you mean south? A. Yes.
Q. He is the retired brick mason? A. I don’t know.
—34—
Q- He is an old man now, isn’t he? A. Yes, sir.
Q' He is on one side? A. Yes.
Q' Who is on the other side ? A. Mr. C. C. Macon.
Q' He is to the north of you? A. Yes.
Q- And Mr. Cecil Macon, he is a brick mason, isn’t he?
Yes, sir.
Q- And that is almost opposite the cemetery? A. Yes.
Q' To the south end of the cemetery? A. Yes.
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
838a
Q. And of course yon know that that road you live on
is the main road through Louisburg? A. Yes.
Q. U. S. Highway 401 goes on to Warrenton? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And North Carolina Highway Number 39 goes on to
Henderson? A. Yes, sir.
-35-
Q. You know that it forks off at Ingleside, and it is tie
main road passing through Louisburg? A. Yes.
Q. The same road passes by the Board of Education
Building and right on north to Warrenton and Henderson!
A. Yes.
Q. And it is a heavily travelled road? A. Yes.
Q. Day or night, buses, trucks, all travel it, don’t they!
A. Yes.
Q. And that night about one-fifteen somebody shot into
your house? A. Yes, sir.
Q. About one-fifteen in the morning, wasn’t it? A. Yes,
Q. And you don’t have any idea who did it? A. No,
Q. Did you or your mother or father report it to the
officers? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did they cmoe out there? A. Yes, sir.
— 0 0 " " '
Q. Who did they report it to ? A. The sheriff, Mr. Cham
pion.
Q. And he investigated it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did the F. B. I. come out there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is the Federal Bureau of Investigation, a i me
States Agency, isn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. They came out? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And made a diligent investigation? A. Yes, sir. ̂
Q. Got statements from you all, looked and examia
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
A . Yes, sir.
839a
Q. And all? A. (Nods affirmatively.)
Q. And so far as yon know, even the F. B. I. has never
been able to find ont who did it? A. No, sir.
Q. So far as you know, they have not been able to find
out? A. No, sir.
Q. Neither the sheriff nor the Federal Burean of Inves-
—37—
tigation? A. No, sir.
Q. And of course you don’t have any idea who did it?
A. No.
Q. How far is your house from the road? A. I’d say as
far as to the other side of that building over there.
Q. How far is that, about fifty or sixty feet? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. That is your best guess? A. Yes.
Q. And your house is pretty well down on the level with
the road? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Pretty much on the level with the road? A. Yes.
Q. And somebody gave you a note, you gave to the
teacher, and you were called bad names six times? A . Yes.
Q. During the one hundred and sixty days you have been
at school? A. (Nods affirmatively.)
Q. And of course nobody was hurt when they shot into
your house? A. No.
—38—
Q. What was it, a shotgun or do you know? A. I don’t
hnow.
Q. And you kept right on going to school, just like your
mother and father asked for you to do? A. Yes.
Q. And in spite of this trouble, you say trouble down
town, you kept right on going to school, in the same class
with those same people? A. Yes.
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
840a
Q. Anri you hope to get promoted and you expect to get
promoted, don’t you? A. (Nods affirmatively.)
Q. And you will be in the same class with them next year!
A. Yes.
Q. And out of the twenty-nine or thirty in the room, the
only ones, names you can call is Clay Arnold by a note,
and Nancy Ascue, some girl you know that you can’t call
her name, and Bertha Fuller? A. Yes.
Q. And so far as you know, the Board of Education,
they have never done anything to you, have they? A. No,
-39-
Q. Do you know anybody on the Board of Education!
A. No.
Q. And do you know Mr. Cecil Macon very well, don’t
you? A. Yes.
Q. You know he is on the school committee here in Lou-
isburg? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You know that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he is right next to you? A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever complain to him about how you were
treated or anything? A. No.
Q. Do you know Mr. Robert Williams is very active in
Louisburg in the American Legion and other things, don
you? A. Yes.
Q. Have you ever complained to him? A. No.
Q. Asked him—and so far as you know, has your mot a
or father been over to see Mr. Smith here, the Supermt®-
— 40-
dent of Schools? A. No, not that I know of.
Q. Made any complaints? A. No, sir.
Q. About your treatment? A. No, sir.
Q. And you yourself have never been over to see hi
called him up or anything ? A. No.
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
841a
Q. And the time you had these incidents downtown, you
didn’t report it to the police there? A. No.
Q. Standing there on the corner, and that was a long way
from school and after school, wasn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. And you would still come downtown and go to Rose’s
and Rainer’s? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Fox’s, if you wanted to? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You always bought anything you wanted to in the
stores, if you had money? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they always waited on you? A. Yes, sir.
—41—
Q. You are assigned a seat in school, in your room? A.
No.
Q. In your room you are not assigned a seat? A. Oh,
yes. In the room. Yes, I am.
Q. And at Riverside they always assigned you a seat in
your home room? A. Yes.
Q. The teacher always, since you have been in school,
assigned seats ? A. Yes.
Q. And your seat is just like everybody else’s, isn’t it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you expected when you went to school to be as
signed a seat in the school room? A. Yes.
Q- Mr. Fox has always been very nice to you, hasn’t he?
A. Yes.
Q. And it looks like he is trying to run a good school,
doesn’t it? A. I would say so.
Q- What is that? A. I would say so.
—42—
Q- You think he is? A. Yes, sir.
Q- Trying to run a good school? A. (Nods affirmatively)
Q- You know Billy Stallings, don’t you? A. Yes.
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
842a
Q. Didn’t you accuse him one time of putting his foot:
the aisle? A. Yes.
Q. And you told him, “You had better move your foot,
white hoy” , didn’t you? A. Is that what you said to him!
A. No.
Q. What did you say to him? A. I said, “You had bet
ter watch that.”
Q. Did you call him “white boy” ? A. No.
Q. Mrs. Gardner was in the room? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the room is small, so she could hear what go®
on? A. Yes.
O And Billy Stallings is still in your room, isn’t he-
-13-
A. Y gs
Q. And you expect to he in the same class with him nest
year, if both of you all are promoted, don’t you? A. Yes,
Q. And so everything that did come up, you always toot
care of yourself very well, didn’t you?
Mr. Kennedy: Objection.
Mr. Yarborough: I withdraw the question, then.
By Mr. Yarborough (To the witness) :
Q. And the course that is giving you trouble is matt1
A. Yes.
Q. You are passing your other work? A. Yes.
Q. What sort of math is this, new math or what: ■
New.
Q. What they call new math? A. Yes.
Q. Is this your first year of taking that? A. Yes.
Q. And they teach all the children in your grade
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
math? A . Yes.
843a
Q. You are taking the same course that everybody else
—41...
takes in your room? A. Yes.
Q. Some of the others are having trouble with it, aren’t
they? A. I guess so.
Q. Is your father living here now, or is he away from
here? A. He is here.
Q. How many brothers and sisters do you have that are
of school age? A. (No answer)
Q. Of school age? A. One.
Q. And she is at Louisburg, too? A. Yes.
Q. And she is younger than you are? A. No.
Q. Older? A. Yes.
Q. And she expects to go back to Louisburg next year?
A. Yes.
Q. And the house that you live in, does your father own
it or rent it? A. Rents it.
—45—
Q. Who does he rent it from? A. Mr. James T. Ander
son.
Q. Mr. James T. Anderson? A. Yes, sir.
Q. A man that runs the barber shop in Louisburg? A.
Yes.
Q. Did he come out there after this incident about the
shooting? A. Yes.
Q. And every incident in the school, you reported to your
teacher, did you? A. Yes.
Q- Have you ever reported anything directly to Mr. Fox?
A-Yes, I have.
Q' What was that incident? A. With Shirley Patterson.
Q- Who is Shirley Patterson? A. I don’t know. She is
a girl that goes over there.
Q- And so he looked into that, did he? A. Yes.
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
844a
Q. Every time you went to Ms office, he talked with yon
in a nice, pleasant way, hasn’t he? A. Yes.
-46 -
Q . And you certainly agree he is a nice man, don’t you!
A. Yes.
Q. That is all. Thank you.
Mr. Kennedy: We have nothing further.
Redirect Examination by Mr. Clayton:
Q. Just one question: With reference to the school bus,
when you get on the school bus in the morning it is f a l l or
nearly full? A. Yes.
Q. And when you get on, do you have to walk all the way
past all the other students, to the back to get to a seat!
A. Yes.
Q. And then when you get on the school bus in the after
noon, you get on and you are assigned to a back seat? A
Yes.
Q. And when you get off the bus, it is the first or rear
the first stop in the afternoon? A. Yes.
Q. Which is it? A. It is the second stop.
O. The second stop? A. (Nods affirmatively)
^ —47-
Q. And when you get off, you have to walk past all tb
other students who are sitting, to get off? A. Yes.
Q. And is that the same case with the other Negroes who
ride the school bus? A. I think so.
Q. All right.
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
Mr. Clayton: That is all.
845a
Recross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough-.
Q. Now, you say that some of the others, the Davis girl
and the other small child? A. (Nods affirmatively)
Q. They live six or seven miles from you, don’t they?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At the other end of the route? A. Yes.
Q. And so you were wrong when you say they got off
soon and they have to do the same thing? The Long child
is the small child? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the Davis girl? A. Yes, sir.
Q. They live not so very far from where the Peoples boy
— 48—
who drives the bus lives? A. I don’t know.
Q. Do you know where they live? A. Yes.
Q. And that is six or eight miles from you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. A long ways? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you don’t know7 where the boy lives that drives
the bus? A. I know where they used to live.
Q. How far is that from the Davis house? A. I would
say five miles from it.
Q. Five miles from it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did he used to live? Well, anyhow, the bus
carries forty or fifty students? A. Yes.
Q. And you don’t know how many stops he makes, do
you? A. No.
Q. How long is the bus? A. I don’t know. But it is
very long.
Q- So the only trouble you are complaining about, you
- 4 9 -
have to walk the length of the bus to get off, that’s right,
isn’t it?
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
Mr. Kennedy: Objection.
846a
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Answer the question, though. A. Yes.
Q. Of course you have to walk the bus about the length
of this room? A. From that wall to that wall, yes.
Q. Yes. That is all. Thank you.
Mr. Kennedy: No further questions.
By Mr. Kennedy (To the witness) :
Q. Thank you very much.
—137-
Mr. Kennedy: Before we take the deposition of
this witness, let the record show that the witness is
represented by two attorneys, Mr. Hill Yarborough
of Louisburg, North Carolina, and Mr. Bob I
Bowers of Raleigh, North Carolina, who are here
present at this deposition.
—138—
Mr. Kennedy (Continuing): The attorneys for
Mr. Rogers and for all the parties here appearing
in this case now enter a stipulation to the record.
Mr. Hill Yarborough: That there are two civil ac
tions pending in Franklin County Superior Court
against Mr. Rogers, growing out of an alleged sim
ple assault, the suits having been brought by W'°
white boys against Mr. Rogers, personally.
There are also two criminal cases pending against
him, charging Mr. Rogers with simple assault on the
same two white boys, who are students in his school
and residents of his school district.
Both civil suits were begun in November, 19 >
the criminal actions were commenced in October,
1966, in the Mayor’s Court, which does not have an)
jurisdiction, except for simple assaults.
847a
Direct Examination by Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Will you state your full name, address and occupa
tion, please? A. I am Fred Wilton Rogers. R-o-g-e-r-s.
— 139—
107 Hillsboro Street, Franklinton.
Q. Your occupation, please? A. Superintendent of
Franklinton City Schools.
Q. Is the Franklinton City School System wholly con
tained within the confines of Franklin County, North Caro
lina? A. Now, I want to make a statement here.
Q. Off the record? A. (No answer).
Q. Answer the question. A. Well, I ’m going to make a
statement about that.
Q. Well, you have to answer the question. A. Do I have
to answer the question?
Mr. Hill Yarborough: Well, we object to his be
ing forced to answer the question.
I think he is entitled to make a statement. On
behalf of Mr. Rogers, as his personal attorneys, we
object to his being forced to answer a question when
he offers to make a statement concerning the matter,
without being given the opportunity to make a state
ment.
(Discussion off record)
Mr. Hill Yarborough: I would like to get his state
ment into the record.
— 140—
Mr. Kennedy: He is a witness. He has to tes
tify.
Mr. Hill Yarborough: I known
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
848a
Mr. Kennedy: If yon want to make objections,
we would like for you to make your objections and
state them for the record.
Mr. Hid Yarborough: Well, provided it doesn’t
affect his rights and defense in these two actions.
Mr. Kennedy: We are not going to mention those
lawsuits now.
(Discussion off record)
Mr. Hill Yarborough: Let me get this in the rec
ord:
In connection with those two civil actions, he is
sued for actual damages and also for punitive dam
ages, which has something to do with whether he
should be permitted to answer a question or whether
we will object to his answering a question or not.
By Mr. Hill Yarborough (To the witness):
Q. If you know the answer to that previous question he
asked you, I don’t think it would hurt you to answer that,
— 141—
if you know. (Question read) A. Yes.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Is the Franklinton City School System a separate and
independent administrative unit? A. Yes, it is.
Q. You don’t operate jointly with the Franklin County
System! A. No.
Q. Does the Board of Education that supervises an̂
oversees the Franklinton City School System, is that right.
A. Would you repeat that!
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
849a
Q. Franklin ton City School System has a separate board
of education? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Franklinton City School System, is it presently oper
ated under a freedom of choice plan? A. Yes, it is.
Q. Has there been any discussion between Franklinton
City School System and the representatives from the De
partment of Health, Education and Welfare, concerning
the status of the freedom of choice plan in Franklinton
- 1 4 2 -
City? A. Yes. There has been some discussion.
Q. Now was the status of compliance of the Franklinton
City Board with the Guidelines of the Department of
Health, Education and Welfare a topic of the discussions
with officials of the Department of Health, Education and
Welfare? A. Could you do that one again? Give me that
question back?
Q. Yes. In the discussion between the Franklinton Board
and the officials of H. E. W., did you ever discuss the status
of freedom of choice plan in line with the Guidelines formu
lated by H. E. W.f A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever make any proposals to your Board of
Education regarding further steps the Board might pos
sibly take to stay or maintain itself in compliance with H.
E. W. regulations ?
Mr. Hill Yarborough: I believe we will object to
that.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q- You may answer, subject to the objection. A. I think
I should ask my attorney. Do you think I should answer
that?
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
850a
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
By Mr. Hill Yarborough:
Q. I would advise you not to answer it. In fact, I do ad
vise you not to answer it, because it may affect your defense
to the suit that is pending against you now.
(Discussion off record)
Mr. Hill Yarborough: He was asked the question,
as I recollect it, as to whether or not he had given
any advice or made any recommendations to hi!
Board of Education in reference to the desegrega
tion, and we object to that question and advise it
Rogers not to answer it on the ground that it may
affect the outcome of the cases in which I represent
him, about which we stipulated.
And if there is any question about whether Mr,
Rogers ought or ought not to answer the question
or should be required to answer the question, we
prefer the Court pass upon it, whether or not that
is proper.
Mr. Kennedy: Yes. You can reserve yourself that
right to object on those grounds.
By Mr. Kennedy (To the witness):
Q. Did your Board hold any public meetings in the late
—14H
summer or early fall of 1966? A. Let’s see. 1966. I’m try
ing to get that time. That is the 66-67 school year you are
talking about, is that right?
Q. Yes, sir. A. The Board did not officially call any pu
lie meetings. . ^
Q. My question was not on the public—just meetings *
the Board, sir. A. Certainly the Board had meetings.
— 143-
851a
Q. Were you present at some of those meetings of the
Board? A. Yes.
Q. In fact, are you Recording Secretary to the Board
when it has its meetings? A. Yes.
Q. Was there a meeting in the late summer of 1966,
particularly in the month of August, in which the Board
discussed or there was discussed at the meeting the ques
tion of whether the Board should laterally transfer stu
dents from one seventh grade school to another school in
the Franklinton City School System? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What were those two schools involved? A. What
—1 4 5 -
schools were involved ?
Q. Yes, sir. A. In this discussion?
Q. Yes, sir. A. The Franklinton Public School and the
B. F. Person-Albion School.
Q. How many grades are in these two schools? A.
Twelve grades.
Q. In each one ? A. In each one.
Q. Are there any other schools in your system? A. That
is all.
Q. What is the race of the majority of students at B. F.
Person-Albion School? A. Negro.
Q. Are there any white persons attending or teaching at
the Person School? A. No.
Q. What is the race of the majority of the teachers and
students at the Franklinton School? A. White.
Q. There are some Negro students and a teacher, I be
lieve, at the Franklinton School? A. Yes, sir.
—146—
V. What action was taken concerning the proposition of
a eraHj' transferring students from the seventh grade of
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
852a
Person to the Franklinton School? What official action was
taken by the Board, first? A. Well, actually none.
Q. Was there any approval or disapproval given to the
question of lateral transfer of the seventy-grade from Per
son to Franklinton?
Mr. Hill Yarborough: You are referring now to
the action of the Board proper?
Mr. Kennedy: Yes, sir.
Mr. Hill Yarborough: Or his action?
Mr. Kennedy: The Board proper.
By Mr. Hill Yarborough:
Q. If you remember. A. Would you give me that again?
Q. Have you got your minutes with you of your meet
ings, Mr. Rogers? A. No, I don’t.
(Question read)
A. In terms of the action, it was disapproved.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. How did the question come up? One of the Board
members propose it? A. No, this was
—147—
By Mr. Hill Yarborough (Interposing):
Q. Well now, excuse me one minute.
Mr. Hill Yarborough: If there was any action
on his part, we object to any answer.
By Mr. Hill Yarborough (To the witness):
Q. And we advise you not to answer.
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
853a
Mr. Hill Yarborough: If it concerns any action
he himself to on it.
A. Actually the idea of transfer originated with the repre
sentatives of H. E. W.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Was there any vote taken by the Board on that pro
posal? A. Yes.
Q. What was that vote? A. Well, in the overall pic
ture they opposed it.
Q. Was there more than one vote taken? Was there more
than one decision made upon the action that should be given
to the lateral transfer ? A. Yes.
Q. It is stated that the Board ultimately approved the
lateral transfer. Had the Board at any stage of the pro-
—148—
ceedings approved the transfer? A. In official action it
appeared so.
Q. Did what you term the appearance of approval of the
transfer become public knowledge in the City of Franklin-
ton? A. (No answer)
Mr. Hill Yarborough: Well, I don’t know whether
he would know that answer or not.
Mr. Kennedy: I am asking the question of the
witness, if he knows.
A. I don’t know if a specific proposal became public knowl
edge or not.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q- On the day of the Board meeting, was there or were
t ere any statements made to the members of the Board
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
854a
that there was a petition being circulated and a meeting
being held that day to request that the Board retain free
dom of choice and eliminate any transfer of the seventh
grade of Person to Franklinton? A. At what meeting?
Q. The meeting of the Board that day that the meeting
was held. A. I don’t recall if it was brought up then or
not.
Q. Did you become aware during the day that the meet
ing was held that there was any such a petition? A. I
—149-
don’t specifically recall when I became aware that there
was a petition.
Q. There was a petition circulated in general opposition
to a decision by the Board or a possibility that the Board
might transfer students from Person to Franklinton? A.
Yes, there was a petition.
Q. Was this petition made known to the Board? A. Yes,
Q. How was the petition made known to the Board, Mr,
Rogers ? A. I believe copies of it were presented to Board
members, Board Chairmen.
Q. While they were at a meeting, or while there was-
A. (Interposing): I don’t recall any meeting at which
somebody presented this.
Q. Were there any sound trucks circulated in the ToW
of Franklinton, soliciting public support in opposition to
the proposal to transfer students from Person to Franklin-
ton? A. There was not any. As far as I know, that is in
correct. ,
Q. Is your answer yes or no? A. I would say n0'^
understand your question completely.
Q. Well, if you don’t understand the question, I will r)
to ask it a different way. Were there any sound true«
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
855a
used in the Town of Franklinton to encourage support for
a group of persons or a person who was in opposition to
the proposals to laterally transfer students from Person to
Franklinton! A. Well, the purposes, it would be pure
speculation on my part.
By Mr. Hill Yarborough:
Q. Don’t answer, unless you have positive knowledge.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Did the Board minutes reflect that the Board had at
one stage indicated approval for the lateral transfer?
Mr. Hill Yarborough: I think that is a conclusion.
Mr. Kennedy: I am asking the witness for his
knowledge.
Mr. Hill Yarborough: As to what the minutes re
flect?
It depends on who is looking at the minutes, too,
—151—
as to what they reflect.
Mr. Kennedy: If you will make an objection.
Mr. Hill Yarborough: We object to that question.
Mr. Kennedy: And I will ask the question.
Mr. Chambers: I would like to make one inquiry:
I think that Mr. Yarborough really can instruct
the witness to either answer or not answer and then
file an objection.
Mr. Hill Yarborough: Well, I ’m representing this
naan.
Mr. Chambers: I agree with that, but I was think
ing it was Mr. Yarborough, as Attorney of the
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
856a
Board, would be objecting, might object to the ques
tion.
(Discussion off record)
Mr. Hill Yarborough: We object to his answering
that question on the ground that what his opinion
as to what the minutes may reflect may hurt him in
his civil and criminal actions.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Was there more than one meeting of the Board held
on the same day in late August of 1966, the day under
—152-
discussion? A. Yes.
Q. At the second meeting were there any number of per
sons in attendance in addition to the Board members i
A. Yes.
Q. What is your estimate of the number of persons who
were in attendance? A. I would have to give you an esti
mate.
Q. If you have one, sir. A. I don’t really know.
Q. Was there more than a hundred? A. I suspect there
was more than a hundred.
Q. More than two hundred? A. I don’t know.
Q. Where was the meeting held, sir? A. In the audi
torium at Franklinton Public School.
Q. Was the auditorium filled? A. No.
Q. Did you recognize any of the persons in attendance
at the meeting in addition to the Board m em b ers ! A.
course. -
Q. Do you know a man named Hubert Senter? A. * >
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
sir.
857a
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
—153—
Q. Was he in attendance? A. Now, I have been in
structed in these matters. This would in some way bear on
the case.
Mr. Hill Yarborough: For the record, Mr. Senter
is the attorney prosecuting the civil actions against
Mr. Rogers, and I think any reference to him by
Mr. Rogers might affect his lawsuit to a certain ex
tent.
And for that reason we object and advise him not
to answer.
A. 1 stated my objections in this case when you came by to
see me; that I felt like it was unduly putting me on the
spot in these cases, but here I am. I have got to be here.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Were there comments directed from the members of
the audience to the members of the Board concerning the
appearance that the Board had given that it was approving
a lateral transfer from the Person School to the Franklin-
ton School? A. Yes, sir.
Q- What was the nature of these comments? Favorable
or unfavorable?
Mr. Hill Yarborough: Well, I object to his ex-
—1 5 4 -
pressing any opinion one way or the other as to
that, as to whether such comments that may have
been heard at a meeting were favorable or unfavor
able. We think that may damage Mr. Rogers in his
lawsuit, or lawsuits, that are pending.
858a
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. How long did the meeting last, the second meeting!
A. From about four-thirty to six-thirty.
(Recess)
By Mr. Kennedy (Continuing):
Q. Who is the attorney for the Franklinton Board of
Education ? A. W. P. Pearce, Jr.
Q. Did you ever give him a message to send to Mr. Dodds
in Washington that the Board had approved transfer! A,
No, I didn’t.
Q. Wait a minute. Let me finish the question. A. Oh.
Q. That the Board had approved the transfer from the
Person School to the Franklinton School seventh graders!
A. No, I did not give him the message.
Q. Did you ever inform Mr. Pearce that the Board had
—155—
rescinded its approval for the transfer of students from
Person to Franklinton? A. No, I didn’t.
Q. Okay. Going back for a minute to the late afternoon
meeting of the Board at which it is stated a p p r o x i m a t e ly
one hundred persons were in attendance, were any com
ments made from the floor, such as “Run the Negro lovers
out of town” or “Do we have to pay a man that d o e s no
think like we do?”
Mr. Hill Yarborough: Excuse me one mind®
Are you referring by the “man” to Mr. Rogers?
Mr. Kennedy: I am asking him were these com
ments made.
Mr. Hill Yarborough: Well, we object.
859a
Mr. Kennedy: I am asking the witness if he has
knowledge of these comments being made.
Mr. Hill Yarborough: Read the question back.
(Question read)
Mr. Hill Yarborough: I believe we will still object
to that question on the ground that there may be
some reference in it which would cause injury or
damage to Mr. Rogers in his lawsuits.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. You state that Mr. Senter was in attendance at the
—1 5 6 -
meeting. Did he make a comment at the meeting, “Are we
to sell out for eighty thousand dollars?” A. This, again,
involves an area in which I have been advised not to com
ment on.
Q. All right. Did Mr. Senter present a petition bearing
signatures of the number of residents of the Franklinton
Board! A. I don’t know if he presented it or not.
(Discussion off record)
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q- What date was the opening of school in Franklinton
been originally set for in the fall of 1966? A. August
twenty-ninth.
Q- Did school open on that day? A. No.
Q- When did school open? A. September. I need a
calendar.
Q- Well, sometime afterwards? A. Four or five days
aiterwards. Five week days.
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
860a
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
Q. During the time that, before the actual opening of
school, did any of the members of the school board or your
self make a trip to Washington, D. C.t A. Did yon say
before or after, either one?
0 Let me ask the question this way: Did you or tie
- 157-
members of the Board of Education make a trip to Wash
ington, D. C., within two weeks, either side of the actual
opening of school? A. Yes.
Q. When was that trip? A. Well, let’s see.
Q. Before or after the opening of school, sir? A. This
was, I believe it was before.
Q. Who did you meet with in Washington? A. We met
with officials of H. E. W. Would you like for me to name
them? ,
Q. No, sir. That is all right, sir. Was there a meetingoi
the School Board held within a few days of the actual open
ing of school? A. Yes.
Q. Was this a public meeting, sir? A. No.
Q. Were there any persons in attendance in addition to
the Board members and yourself? A. Yes.
Q. Where was the meeting held? A. In the Franklino
Public School Library. _ _ ...
Q. There were persons there in addition to joins
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I see. Approximately how many persons were there!
A. There again, I couldn’t tell you. ^
Q. Were there any comments made on the topic o
freedom of choice plan? A. Yes. ,
Q. Were comments made of the original Board to
freedom of choice? A. Yes.
861a
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
Q. Does the Board still operate under the freedom of
choice today? A. Yes.
Q. Has it been operating under the freedom of choice
since? A. Since the beginning.
Q. Beginning of what? A. Well, since the Civil Eights
Act of 1964.
Q. At your meeting with H. E. W. officials in Washing
ton before the opening of school, was the question of trans
fer of students from the Person School to the Franklinton
School discussed? A. Yes, it was.
Q. What is the amount of federal funds which Franklin
ton City School System receives annually, approximately?
— 1 5 9 —
A. Approximately two hundred thousand.
Q. Had H. E. W. officials—
Mr. Hill Yarborough (Interposing): Excuse me.
Where is that from?
Mr. Kennedy: Federal funds.
Mr. Hill Yarborough: H. E. W. funds, federal
funds, oh, yes.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q- H. E. W. funds? A. Yes, sir.
Q- Had H. E. W. officials ever stated to you that the
Franklinton City School System may lose some of the
edeial money because of the status of its desegregation of
schools? A. Yes.
Q- Did you also discuss it to men in Washington whether
• E. W. would defer some portion of the federal funds be
cause of the progress or lack of progress made in desegre
gating schools in Franklinton City? A. Do that one again.
862a
Q. At the meeting with H. E. W. officials in Washington,
did you discuss whether or not federal funds may be de
ferred because of progress or lack of progress in desegre-
-160-
gating schools'! A. Yes.
Q. Is this same question, topic discussed at the three
school board meetings that we have already talked about!
A. The same topic concerning the funds!
Q. The funds and the progress of desegregating the
schools. A. Yes.
Q. Was that the main topic at each of these school boar!
meetings! A. (No answer)
Q. Was it one of the main topics! A. Well, yes.
Q. Thank you. Does the Franklinton School System
operate buses! A. Yes, sir.
Q. School buses for the children! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you or any official of the School Board ever be
come aware of any threats made concerning the safety of
the children in the operation of the school buses! A. No.
—161—
Q, Was there ever, or did you ever become aware of at
anonymous phone call, allegedly from the K. K. K, cot-
cerning the operation of the school bus or a school Its
A. No- . foi
Q. Did you ever have occasion to personally drive,
lowing one of these school buses! A. No.
Q. Did any employee or member of the school boat
ever follow one of the school buses!
Mr. Hill Yarborough: Excuse me. What
that? »jju
Mr. Kennedy: Did any employee or member o
school board ever follow one of the school buses.
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
863a
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
A. Well, all of us follow buses once in a while, I ’m sure.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. For the purpose of following the bus? A. No.
Q. Did you ever write a letter, send copies of a letter to
the members of the community, parents of the children
going to school, concerning the operation of the school
—162—
buses? A. No.
Q. Was there ever a letter sent out under the auspices or
the control of the Board of Education or its employees to
parents concerning the operation of school buses? A. No.
Q. Was the Franklinton High School activity bus, the use
of it ever suspended or altered in some way? A. Yes.
Q. What was that? How was it altered? A. We simply
suspended the use of it for a short length of time.
Q. Did you ever communicate to anybody in a letter
that the use of this bus would be suspended or changed?
(Discussion off Record)
A. I remember the question and as phrased, the question
would have to be answered no.
% Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Did you become aware of any threats made against
this activities bus of Franklinton High School? Did you
ĉome aware of any information you considered a threat
or a possible threat? A. Yes.
—163—
H. How did you become aware of that information? A.
e > I received an anonymous telephone call—anonymous
telephone calls.
864a
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
Q. What was stated in the calls, sir? A. (No answer)
Q. To the best of yonr recollection. A. Well, it relates
to the buses—I mean not the buses, but the bus, activity
bus, that damage would be done to the bus.
Q. By whom or by what, sir? A. It was not specified
by whom or by what.
' Q. Okay. Was the Department of Health, Education and
Welfare, did it initiate deferral proceedings against tie
Franklinton City School System? A. Yes.
Q. Were charges made against the Franklinton City
School System by the Department of Health, Education and
Welfare, that in substance your board was not in compliance
with Civil Bights Act of 1964? A. No, sir. They never did
specify charges.
Q. Has your board held public meetings in 1967 in which
members of the public attended? A. Yes.
Q. Was the question of compliance by your Board wift
— 164-
H. E. W. Guidelines discussed at these meetings? A. Y®
Q. Does the Department of Health, Education and Wel
fare make allegations and charges that your Board is not
in compliance with its Guidelines? A. No.
Q. Now was the nature of the deferral proceedings
brought against Franklinton School Board by H.E.W.? A
That we appear to be out of compliance.
Q. In reference to my earlier questions about the charges
of H. E. W., then, would you say that your answer to
those questions are that your Board appears to he out o
compliance? A. That was their allegation.
Q. That was their side of the story? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Your side of the story, well, what is it? That you
agree with that, is that right? A. That’s right.
865a
Q. I see. Okay. How long have yon been Superintendent
or employed with the Franklinton Board, sir? A. Well,
I am just about to finish four years.
Q. When will you finish? What month? A. June thir
tieth.
— 165—
Q. Are you returning next year to the Franklinton City
School System? A. No, I ’m not.
Q. During the school year 1965-66, approximately how
many Negro children were in attendance at the Franklinton
Schools, sir? A. Thirteen.
Q. WTere there any Negro teachers or faculty members
at Franklinton, at the Franklinton School? A. No.
Q. Were there any white teachers or school board em
ployees at the Person School during ’65-’66? A. Yes.
Q. How many, sir? A. There was one.
Q. During 1966-’67 school year, how many Negro students
attended Franklinton School? A. ’66? That is this year,
isn’t it?
Q. Yes, sir. A. There were seven.
Q' How many Negro persons were employed as faculty
members or staff members employed by the Board at
Franklinton? A. One.
—166—
Q. How many white persons were employed as faculty
members, teachers or staff persons at the Person School?
A. None.
Q- Mr. Rogers, have you testified to the United States
Government in this school case previously? A. Yes, sir.
Q’ When was that ? A. If you will give me a hint ?
Q- Sometime last summer, sir? A. Yes.
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
866a
Mr. Kennedy: I have no further questions, Mr,
Chambers.
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
Direct Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Rogers, Franklinton School District is a separate
school district from the Franklin County Board of Educa
tion, but do you have some procedure now where FranMii
County Board of Education secures the buses for the Frank-
linton School District? A. Yes.
Q. And how many buses do they secure for the ’66-’fi?
school year? A. We have eleven buses provided by Frank
lin County.
Q. Now, the buses are paid for by the County or paid for
by the State? A. I can’t answer that question. Mr. Smitl
could.
Q. Mr. Smith is the Superintendent of the Franklin
County Board of Education? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are the bus drivers paid for by the State or by tin
County? A. I haven’t dealt with buses. I don’t administer
buses, and so I couldn’t specifically, I couldn’t answer that
question competently.
Q. Do you mean that Mr. Smith of the Franklin Count?
Board of Education takes care of all the buses, sin A
Yes, sir.
Q. Servicing? A. Yes, sir. ,
Q. The routing of the buses? A. No. I think tiu-
again, begins to be our responsibility, in our adminî ®
tive unit. ,
Q. You do provide the routing of buses? A. Yes, si
Q. I think it was stated before that you had about»
teen hundred students in the Franklinton School DisnC
A. Yes, sir.
867a
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
—168—
Q. Do you know the average family income in Franklin-
ton? A. No. I do not know that.
Q. Do you receive—I mean the Franklinton School Dis
trict—any E. S. E. A. funds? A. Yes, we do.
Q. How many families do you have in Franklinton that
qualify for E. S. E. A. funds? A. It seems to me, if I can
recall from the 1960 census, I believe was the last one we
had, something in excess of six hundred. That is an esti
mate.
Q. Could you give us your estimate in the percentage of
students in your school that would qualify for E. S. E. A.
funds? A. Well, it is in excess of forty, I think.
Q. In excess of forty percent? A. Something in that
neighborhood.
Q. What is the primary industry in Franklinton? A.
Textiles.
Q. Do you have any farming there? A. Yes.
Q. Or any Negroes working in the textile factories? A.
- 1 6 9 -
Yes, sir.
Q. What percentage of a family would be working in a
textile factory? A. I have no idea.
Q. Would the primary industry for the Negroes there be
textiles or farming? A. I don’t know that, either.
Q- Do you have very many families in Franklin County,
outside of the Franklinton School District, coming into
Fianklinton to work? A. I don’t know the answer to that.
Q- Is the principal paper circulated in Franklinton the
Franklin Times? A. Yes, sir. I reckon it is. We have
several papers. That is considered our local paper, though.
Yes, sir.
Q- It is considered your local paper? A. Yes.
868a
Q. Do you receive any money in addition to the buses
from the Franklin County Board of Commissioners? A
Yes.
Q. Is your budget approved each year by the Franklin
County Board of Commissioners! A. Yes.
— 170-
Q. I think you supplement that with a township or city
tax! A. Yes, we do.
Q, Has there been any discussion about merger of the
Franklin County Board of Education and the Franklinton
Board of Education! A. There has. Yes. It has been
discussed.
Q. Has the State Board of Education consulted you or
the Board with reference to a possible merger! A. Yes.
I mean it is according to what you mean. I would answer
that yes.
Q. Was there a recommendation from the State Board
of Education to you that the boards consider a merger!
A. Yes.
Q. What is the present status of the proposed merger!
A. Well, it has no status in that there is no action that has
been taken of a serious nature, involving merger.
Q. Now, has your board considered it! A. Do that
again! ,
Q. Has your Board of Education considered a merger.
A. Not seriously.
Q. The matter has been before the Board! A. Yes.^ — 171"
Q. Do you know why the Board has not considered the
matter seriously! A. Well, I think it would be their fee
ing that they are an independently operated unit, and t ej
like it that way, and perhaps the County likes it that W'
too.
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
869a
Q. To your knowledge, has there been a study by the
State Board of Education in reference to County and City
Boards of Education? A. Yon will have to give me that
one again. I didn’t catch it.
Q. I’ll rephrase it: Was there recently to your knowl
edge a report from the State Board of Education that the
County and Town or City Boards of Education merge? A.
Well, not recently.
Q. When was the most recent? A. 1965.
Q. You don’t recall such a report in 1967? A. No.
Q. Or 1966? A. No.
Q. Was there any consideration by your Board a plan for
- 1 7 2 -
desegregation following the interim order entered in this
ease of Coppedge vs. The Franklin County Board of Edu
cation? A. I lost that one, if you don’t mind.
Q. Was there any consideration by your Board of its
plan of desegregation following the interim order entered
by the Court in this case of Coppedge vs. The Franklin
County Board of Education? A. Our Board of Education
did study the interim order.
Q. Did it take any action following the interim order?
A. No.
Q. Did your Board of Education take any action to en
courage desegregation of the schools?
Mr. Hill Yarborough: Excuse me. We will object
to that, unless it was an official action of the Board.
We wouldn’t want his opinion to be considered on
the ground that his opinion to a question like that
may injure his in his defense of his lawsuits.
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
870a
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. Any official action? A. Well, yes. The Board has
taken action to encourage desegregation of the schools,
— 173-
Q. Now, could you state what that has been? A. They
have submitted to the United States Office of Education and
also implemented a plan of desegregation of the schools,
Q. Is that the freedom of choice plan? A. Yes. And
they have also held public meetings to encourage success
of this plan and its publicity.
Q. The freedom of choice plan you referred to is the one
adopted following the Civil Rights Act of 1964, is that right!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it also the one you discussed with Mr. Kennedy in
stating that the Department of Health, Education and Wel
fare has charged that they feel that you are not complying!
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you stated that your Board had held public
meetings? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hill Yarborough: Excuse me one minute, I
presume you are referring to the Board, instead of
his Board.
He is employed by the Board.
—17U
Mr. Chambers: I am referring to the Franklin
County Board of Education.
Mr. Hill Yarborough: I don’t want anybody!9
get the idea that it is his Board. In fact, it is i°
the contrary.
871a
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. When were these public meetings held by the Frank-
linton Board of Education! A. The latter part of Janu
ary.
Q. Of 1967! A. ’67.
Q. Are these the meetings you were discussing with Mr.
Kennedy where you had so many people present! A. Yes,
sir.
Q. These were additional meetings! A. Yes, sir.
Q. What were the results of those meetings? A. Well,
we hope the results were positive.
Q. You don’t have any present results! A. We don’t
have complete results.
Q. Did any Negro students transfer to predominantly
white schools as a result of it? A. I think so.
Q. You just don’t have any results of it? A. You are
—175—
talking about results of the meeting? We hope the impact
of the meeting was positive, but to say that that meeting-
caused any single person to transfer one way or the other,
I can’t prove it.
Q. Have you had any choice period or anything since
those meetings? A. Yes.
Q. Do you have the results of those? A. Not completely.
Q. Were you attempting at those meetings to get stu
dents to transfer? A. Yes.
Q. Were you also attempting at those meetings to en
courage the parents in the community to accept desegrega
tion of the schools? A. Yes.
Q. The Board felt it necessary to take these steps because
of some action that had occurred prior to those meetings?
A. Well, this was in regard to what the Board felt its re
sponsibility was. And in implementing the Guidelines.
872a
Q. I see. You had some occurrences in Franklinton prior
to those meetings in opposition to desegregation of schools!
—176—
A. Well, yes.
Q. Is it not true, Mr. Rogers, that you had quite a bit of
opposition to desegregation of the schools, prior to those
meetings? A. It is hard for me to testify as to the amount
of opposition. We have had opposition.
Q. Is it not true that you have had several incidents
where parents have opposed desegregation of the schools
of Franklinton? A. If you get more specific, I would per
haps be able to tell you I do or do not know.
Q. Have you had more than one incident? A. That is
not more specific. I ’m not talking about that. I am talking
about what are you talking about.
Q. You are not talking about numbers. You want to
know the specific incident? A. If you have it.
Q. I think you have testified that you have had some
meetings at which parents have expressed opposition to
desegregation of schools? A. No. I don’t think we have
had opposition to our plan to, in these meetings.
-177-
Q. You are testifying that you recall no meeting where
parents have expressed opposition to desegregation? A.
To our plan.
Q. My question is where parents have expressed opposi
tion to desegregation of the schools. A. No, sir. Ye
haven’t had such meetings.
Q. You don’t recall any such meetings? A. No, sir.
Not for that purpose.
Q. Do you recall any instances of cross-burnings in *e
community? A. Yes.
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
873a
Q. Do you recall any incidents of cross burnings at the
home of a Negro parent whose child was in an integrated
school? A. No, I don’t.
Q. Do you recall the incident of the burning of a cross
near a party who leased a home from a parent whose child
was in an integrated school? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you recall any shooting incident in the community?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you recall any dynamiting incident in the com
munity? A. No.
—178—
Q. I think you testified last summer that you had had a
cross burned in your home, in front of your home? A.
There was one placed there. It was not burned.
Q. Do you know Mr. Buck Norwood? A. I want to
know what you mean by knowing him.
Q. Well, do you know his name? A. Yes, sir. I know
his name.
Q. Do you know the person when you see him? A. Yes,
Ido.
Q. Is he a Negro? A. Yes.
Q- Does he have a child or grandchild attending a pre
dominantly white school? A. Yes.
Q. In Franklinton? A. (Nods affirmatively)
Q- You stated that the Board disapproved lateral trans
fers of seventh-grade students in your school system? A.
They disapproved arbitrary transfer of seventh-grade stu
dents against their expressed choices.
Q- I see. Did this action come following a public meeting
or a meeting of the Board of Education in which some par-
—179—
en s were present? A. It was not a public meeting, but
there were parents present.
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
874a
Q. Now, did the parents present there express disap
proval of the lateral transfer of seventh-grade students!
Mr. Hill Yarborough: We will object to what Ms
conclusion may be about that. On the ground that
it might injure him or damage him in his lawsuits.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. To your knowledge do you know of any parent who
expressed opposition at that meeting to the lateral trans
fer? A. No.
Q. You don’t know of any? A. (Shakes head negatively)
Q. To your knowledge did the parents there express ap
proval of the lateral transfer ? A. I don’t know that, either.
Q. In any respect, your Board disapproved the lateral
transfer? A. Yes.
Q. Does the Franklinton High School play any athletics
—180—
or any activities with any schools in Franklin County!
A. At times when we think they do not, but they do.
Q. Do they play football? A. Yes.
Q. Do they play basketball? A. Yes.
Q. Do they play baseball? A. Yes.
Q. Do they participate in the Franklin County Glee Clut
Festivals? A. They have in the past, and I suppose they
will in the future. I ’m not certain of the status of that
particular event at this time. They have participated a
that. . ,
Q. Has the Franklinton School played any predominanty
Negro school in Franklin County? A. No.
Q. In either sport; that is, football, baseball or has®
ball? A. No.
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
875a
Q. To your knowledge has any Negro school participated
in the Glee Club Festival? A. I have never attended one
of those things. To my knowledge—well, I just don’t know.
—181—
It would he an assumption on my part.
Q. Do you know who sponsors the Glee Club Festival?
A, Not exactly.
Q. Do you have any idea at all about it? A. It is usu
ally—I believe someone else would be more competent to
give you the sponsorship of that thing. I ’m not sure about
it.
Q. To your knowledge do the schools participating in
the festival compete for trophies?
By Mr. Hill Yarborough:
Q. Don’t guess about it. Tell him what you know. A.
They get rated or something in competition. Whether they
get trophies, I am not sure.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q- It is a competitive thing? A. I believe you are rated
on quality.
Q. Are other factors considered in the overall rating be
sides the singing by the glee club? A. Now, this is—I
know I sound ignorant about this thing, but we have other
people handling this, and it would be more appropriate to
ask this someone, I think. I really don’t know the standards.
I really don’t.
—182—
Q- Do you have agriculture in the Franklinton School?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have Future Farmers of America there? A.
Yes, sir.
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
876a
Q. Do you have agriculture at the Person School? A,
No.
Q. No agriculture? A. No.
Q. Have you had it during your tenure as superinten
dent? A. No.
Q. To your knowledge of the predominantly Negro
schools in Franklin County, have they at any time partici
pated in any joint activity in which Franklinton School
has participated? A. The two schools in the system?
Q. Yes. A. Joint participation, no. Well, yes, faculties.
Q. Faculties. What do you mean? County faculty meet
ings? A. No. Not county. City faculty meetings.
Q. Are those meetings called at your direction? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. I see. Do you have a countywide teachers’ organiza-
—183—
tion? A. Not countywide. I believe they are separate, just
as the units are.
Q. The teachers’ associations are also separate? A.
Well, now let’s get that straight now. I think there is a
chapter of the teachers in the North Carolina E d u c a t io n
Association in Franklin County and one in Franklinton.
Q. Do you know about the county chapter of the North
Carolina Teachers Association? A. No, I don’t know ex
actly about that.
Q. You don’t know whether there is one for the whole
county? A. I don’t.
Q. But North Carolina Teachers Association is the as
sociation composed primarily of Negro teachers, is ^at
correct? A. Yes.
Q. And the North Carolina Education Association is t e
one composed primarily of the white teachers, is that rig
A. At the present time that is correct.
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
877a
Q. You don’t have any teacher supplements in this school?
—184—
A. No, sir,
Q. Do you have any county workshops for teachers? A.
I think there is a limited amount of work, and our teachers
are invited occasionally to participate in workshops or
ganized by the county.
Q. By the county school units? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And your teachers in the Franklinton School Unit
participate in them? A. We are invited to participate in
them.
Q. Are these integrated workshops? A. There again,
I have never attended one. I am ashamed to say, but I
never have. I wish I knew the answer . I don’t know. I have
never attended one.
Q. Are teachers from other counties also present? A. I
don’t know the answer to that, either.
Mr. Chambers: No further questions.
Cross Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q- Now, Mr. Rogers, all about your freedom of choice or
j our plan of compliance, that is strictly your City Board of
Education affair, isn’t it?
Mr. Chambers: We object to that.
—185—
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Answer it, please. A. Yes.
Q- And Franklin County Board of Education has nothing
to do with it?
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
Mr. Chambers: We object to that.
878a
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
A. No, it did not.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. It did not? And your Franklin City Board of Edu
cation runs its school system, doesn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the Franklin County Board of Education sup
plies the buses and maintains the buses for your system,
but you or someone under the control of the Franklin City
Board of Education routes them and so forth? A. Yes,
sir. That’s correct.
Q. Handles it all except the maintenance and the sup
plying of the buses? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the drivers are students in the schools there!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And about your money from the County, your Board
gets twenty-four and eight-tenths percent of the money!
—186—
A. That’s correct.
Q. That is set forth in the State Law that your Board
gets a certain percentage of the county tax money? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And your Board prepares its own budget and submits
it for approval to the County Commissioners? A. Yes,sir.
Q. The County Board of Education has nothing to do
with your budget? A. No, sir.
Q. And the Franklin County Board of Education o
course has nothing to do with the employment of y°®
teachers or anything of that kind? A. No.
Q. That is contracted by the Franldinton City Boar o
Education, isn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the assignments made in schools and so 01
are by the Franklinton City Board of Education?
Yes, sir.
879a
Q. Now, these questions concerning your Franklinton
activity bus, that is a privately owned or a bus owned by
the Franklinton City Board of Education, and not by the
—187-
County! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And purchased with Franklinton City funds or with
Franklinton City School funds? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And not by the Franklin County Board of Education,
is that right? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it was one hundred percent under the control of
the Franklinton City Board of Education? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And any proposals you made concerning any opera
tion of the schools was made by you to the Franklinton
City Board of Education and not to the Franklin County
Board of Education? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Insofar as the operation of the Franklinton City
Board of Education Schools, I’ll ask you if it isn’t the
same as if it were in another county, so far as the day
to day management and operation were concerned? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Insofar as the Franklin County Board of Education
is concerned, it might just as well be in another county?
—188—
A Yes, sir.
Q- And all dealings with the Franklinton City Board of
Education with the Department of Health, Education and
Welfare were between Franklinton City Board of Educa
tion and the Department of Health, Education and Welfare
and the Franklin County Board of Education had nothing
to do with it?
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
Mr. Kennedy: Objection.
A That’s correct.
880a
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
B y Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Franklinton City Board of Education adopted a plan
for compliance with the Civil Bights Act, did it not? A,
Yes.
Q. And the Franklin County Board of Education adopted
its own plans, so far as you know? A. Yes.
Q. The teachers in the Franklinton City School System,
operated by the Franklinton City Board of Education, are
occasionally invited to participate in the county workshop?
A. Yes, sir.
O And do you know whether or not or don’t you know
—189-
that the workshops, operated by the County Board of
Education, are in fact integrated?
Mr. Kennedy: Objection.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Answer the question, if you know. A. Well, I »
not certain about that, as I have stated before.
Q. Yes, sir. Mr. Rogers, now, so far as any mergers o
the two schools systems, I will ask you if that merger can
only be accomplished by either an Act of the State Legis
lature or by action of the State Board of Education? -
That’s correct.
Q. That is by law? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the Franklinton City School System has been̂a
independent system for many, many years? A. Yes, si■
Q. That is all. Thank you, Mr. Rogers.
881a
Redirect Examination by Mr. K ennedy:
Q. That is all.
Mr. Kennedy: I just want to have the reporter
to mark newspaper clippings as Government’s Ex
hibit No. 3, consisting of thirty-seven pages.
—190—
(The newspaper clippings, consisting of thirty-
seven pages, is marked for identification as
Government’s Exhibit 3.)
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers
Further deponent saith not.
Mr. Kennedy: It is stipulated that the parties for
the plaintiff and plaintiff-intervenor and the defen
dants hereby stipulate and agree that Government’s
Exhibit No. 3 in this deposition contains thirty-
seven pages, which are copies of newspaper articles
appearing at the dates indicated in The Franklin
Times, a newspaper of general circulation in and
about Franklin County, North Carolina.
882a
Buck Norwood, being first duly sworn, testified
lows:
Deposition of Buck Norwood
-191-
Direct Examination by Mr. Kennedy:
Q. State your name and address, please. A. Buck:
wood. Franklinton, Route 1, Box 58.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Box 58! A. Yes, sir.
B y Mr. K ennedy:
Q. How old are you, Mr. Norwood! A. I will be
tbe eleventh of June.
Q. How long have you resided in Franklin County! i
Thirty-five years, I guess, I have been up there right
where I am at.
Q. Have you lived at the same place? A. Yes, sir. 1
haven’t moved since I have been there.
Q. Is your family living with you? A. Well, there ain
nobody; they are all grown; except myself and my'wife m
Q. Is your daughter living thereby? A. Yes, sir. LiM
nearby. ,
Q. Where does she live? A. She lives with Mr.
Joyner. , A
Q. How far away from your house does she live.
Right across the road.
Q. Is Mr. Joyner’s house right across the road from] '
too? A. Yes, sir. Right straight in front of me a w
quarter of a mile. The road runs straight to Ins
Q. Do you own your own land? A. Yes, sir -
runs right up to him.
i
883a
Q. Do you farm? A. Yes, sir. I have been farming.
I rented my tobacco out this time.
Q. Is the area where you live a rural area? It is out
side the city? A. Yes, it is outside the city.
Q. A couple of miles outside of Franklinton? A. I guess
it is three miles outside of Franklinton. I call it the Old
Oxford Road from Franklinton, west.
Q. What is your daughter’s name, please? A. Mary
Kingsbury.
Q. Does Mary Kingsbury have any children? A. Yes,
sir.
—193—
Q. How many children does she have? A. Let’s see. I
think there are five of them, or six of them. I can name
them.
Q. Well, does she have a child named Mabel? A. Yes,
sir. Mabel Kingsbury. She stays with me sometimes. She
helps me sometimes when my wife is sick.
Q' Do you have a grandchild named James Edward
Kingsbury? A. Yes, sir.
Q. About how old is Mabel Kingsbury? A. Mabel wall
soon be nineteen, I reckon.
Q. And how old is James Edward? A. I reckon he is
about fifteen. Of course he is applying for driving edu
cation. They have to be a certain age. That is as close
as I can get to it.
Q. Where do the children who live in the neighborhood
where you live go to school? Do they go to school in
Franklinton? A. Yes, sir. Mabel is the only one that
S°es to another school.
Q. Well, we will get to that. The children who live in
ie neighborhood, the white and the Negro children go to
, —194—
6 Franklinton City Schools? A. Yes, sir. B. F. Person.
Deposition of Buck Norwood
884a
Q. They don’t go to the Franklin County Schools? A.
No, sir. They go to the B. F. Person, or whatever you
might call it.
Q. Were Mary Kingsbury’s children going to an all-
Negro school up until a couple of years ago? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did any of Mary Kingsbury’s children start going to
one of the predominantly white schools? A. Yes, sir.
James Edward.
Q. Which of the children went? A. James Edward and
Mabel started the first year.
Q. When did they start to go to a predominantly white
school? A. Well, what you may call it, year before last.
I can’t call it. This year will make two sessions. Call it
year before last, I reckon.
Q. They both started to go to the predominantly white
school in Franklinton two years ago? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Before that time they had gone to the predominantly
Negro school in Franklinton? A. Yes, sir. Person School.
—195—
Q. The Person School? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is the name of the predominantly white school
where they started to go? A. Franklinton High is all I
know.
Q. Okay. Did anything unusual happen at your residence
or happen to you about the time that Mabel and Jania
Kingsbury started to go to Frankinton High School f
Yes, sir.
Q. Can you tell us about that, please, sir? A. Yes, sir.
One afternoon I got a phone call. I reckon it was our
o’clock in the afternoon. Somebody called me and as e
me didn’t I have a granddaughter staying with me name
Mabel Kingsbury. I told them I did. They said she signe
up for a white school. I said “She did.” They sai >
Deposition of Buck Norwood
885a
Deposition of Buck Norwood
had better go down there and take it off.” I said, “I
didn’t put it on there, and I have got no right to take it
of.” They said, “You had better go down there and take
it off”, and hung up.
Q. Did you get any other telephone calls? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When was the next telephone call? A. Later, a week
—196—
or so, they called me again. I got that call, that same
voice, said, “If I was you, I would go down there and take
Mabel’s name off that book, if I was you.” I said, “I didn’t
put it on there, and I ain’t got no authority to take it
off.” I said, “You tell James Kingsbury what you want
him to know.”
Q. Were you able to identify the person who called you
either time? A. No, sir. But I could tell it was the same
voice. It was the same voice, three times.
Q. Well, either of these two times were you able to
identify the caller? A. (No answer)
Q. Do you know the name of the person who called you?
A. No, sir. I couldn’t say so, because I didn’t see him.
Q. How close to the opening of school were these tele
phone calls? A. Well, it wasn’t very long. The last two
calls.
Q- Was it a few days or a few weeks? A. A few days,
I think.
—197—
Q- Prior to the opening of school? A. Yes, sir. It
°oked like they were trying to get it done before it opened.
Q- Did you get any other telephone calls? A. Yes, sir.
nd then later, one night. It was way in the night. It
Was e*even or eleven-thirty or twelve o’clock, the phone
I got up and went to the phone, and answered it.
6 said, “I was calling you to let you know I haven’t for-
got you”, and hung up.
886a
Q. Were you able to identify that call? A. It sounded
like the same voice.
Q. Do you know the name of the person who called yon
this last time? A. No, sir.
Q. All right. Where do you get the water that yon use
for drinking and for washing purposes at your residence!
A. I have got a well.
Q. Is the well located near you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Near your residence? A. Yes, sir. You step right
off the platform. I have got a cement platform, cement
steps. I can step right off on the well.
- 198-
Q. Okay. Did anything unusual happen to your well!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was that? A. I got somebody to put some
oil in there two or three times. It smelled like oil. Kero
sene, where you kill tobacco with, is the way it smelt.
Q. How do you know there was something unusual m
the well? A. Well, it’s got grease all over it. And yon
could smell it, too.
Q. Did you pull some of the water out of the well? ■
Yes, sir. I drawed up some and you couldn’t use it. I !ia
to quit using it, until I cleaned it out. I had to clean it out.
Q. When did you first discover oil in your w ell? A.
was one Sunday morning, the first time I discovered it ffas
in there. It was put in one Saturday night, and it was one
Sunday morning. .
Q. The first time you discovered oil in your wel
y es
Q. How close was that to the time that Mabel and
Edward first started to the white school? A. Well, now,
I don’t be positive about it. I am not positive, but I °
know whether the school had opened or not; I don’t n
Deposition of Buck Norwood
887a
Deposition of Buck Norwood
—199—
whether they were going or hadn’t started. To tell yon
the truth, I didn’t keep it down, but it was right along
about the time that they was to go, or going. I don’t
remember.
Q. Did you see anybody put any oil in your well? A.
No, sir.
Q. Did you hear anybody do anything to your well?
A. Well, no. I didn’t hear it. But the dog barked. I didn’t
think there was anybody doing it. And I didn’t pay any
attention to it at that time.
Q. Did you do anything when the dog barked? A. No,
sir. Not at the time. I didn’t pay any attention to him
barking at the time because I wasn’t expecting anybody.
Q. I believe you mentioned that there was another inci
dent where something unusual was found in your well,
is that right? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you tell us about that, please? A. Yes, sir.
They put some oil in there again. It was on a third
Saturday. I don’t know the date. I go to church. I went
to church at twelve o’clock. I went to my church and when
I come back there was some more oil in there. It was all
— 200—
messed up again. I had to clean it out.
Q. Okay. Thank you. A. I had to clean it out, and be-
01 e I cleaned it out, I sent and got Mr. Goldberg. He
examined the water and got some of the water and sent
h somewhere in order to have it analyzed.
Q. Who is Mr. Goldberg? A. He is an F. B. I. Mr.
Ooldberg is all I know.
Q- Has be been out to your house? A. Yes, sir. Several
time.
888a
Q. You told him about this incident? A. Yes, sir. And
so he examined this water. Went and got some of it. He
got somebody to put it in a bottle and carried it away.
He seed the grease on there again and told me to clean it
out and when I cleaned the well out, I found a quart bottle
in there. One of these green quart bottles.
Q. Was there any other unusual incident that happened
at your house or at your residence at your land? A. Yes,
sir. Then later, I think it was on Friday night, somebody
shot a dynamite over there on the hill.
Q. How did you know there was an explosion? A. Good
Gracious! Everybody in the neighborhood knowed it. I
ain’t ever heard such a fuss.
— 201—
Q. Was this in the daytime or nighttime? A. It was
nighttime.
Q. Did you hear objects hit your house following the
blast? A. Trash or dirt or something or other like that.
Yes, sir.
Q. You heard it hit your house? A. Yes, sir. It hit
my house like a shower of rain.
Q. Does your house have a tin roof? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you look outside after that to see if there had
been any damage done? A. Yes, sir. I got up and come
outside and was looking and when I come out the phone
rang after I come out, and when I come out—I mean when
the phone rung I went back and answered the phone and
Mrs. Joyner called me. Mrs. Rubie Joyner. She said some
body would be there in a few minutes. She had done and
called the law. Mr. Leslie Joyner, he was the law.
Q. Did you see any damage? A. No, sir. Not tha
night.
Q. In the daytime did you any damages? A. Yes, s
Deposition of Buck Norwood
889a
Deposition of Buck Norwood
— 202—
Q. What kind of damage was done! A. It was a
hickory tree over there. Standing there, and it looked
like a man had tied it to the hickory, and it blowed that
hickory half in two.
Q. Was the tree busted in half? A. Yes, sir. Cut it
off.
Q. How thick was the tree? A. Oh, I reckon it was as
big around as that. A hickory.
Q. How much distance are you showing between your
hands, now! A. I reckon it was something like that.
Q. How far is that? A. (No answer)
Q. As thick as a man’s leg? A. Yes, sir. And it had
blowed it in two. It blowed it as far as from here, seven
or eight feet from there.
Q. Were there any other trees or anything damaged?
A. Yes, sir. Damaged a streak of trees there. They were
pines. Damaged several. I had them cut down here not
long ago. They were dead.
Q- Did any newspaper reporters inquire about this ex-
—203—
p osion? A. Yes, sir. They come out there and taken
pictures of it after that.
Q- Was there a report of this incident broadcast? A.
Yes, sir,
Q- Was the broadcast over radio? A. Yes, sir. Broad
cast over television.
Q. Did you see the broadcast over television? A. Yes, sir. ’
Q. Did you see yourself broadcast over television? A.
fes, sir.
Q' Did you hear your own voice being reproduced over
television! A. Yes, sir. Certainly did.
890a
Q. And you saw yourself on television while you were
in your own house? A. Yes, sir. I was standing on t ie
well when they taken it.
Q. When you were looking at television, where was tie
television set you were looking at when you saw yourself!
A. The television set was setting this way (indicating).
Q. Was it in your house? A. Yes, sir. In my house,
Setting south, that way. (indicating).
—204—
Q. Was there a picture of the damage? A. Yes, sir,
I could see myself picking up that tree, showing them
the tree.
Q. Was there any mention made over the television that
your granddaughter was going to a predominantly white
school?
Mr. E. F. Yarborough: I object to the form.
A. Yes.
B y Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Let me ask that again: Did you see on television,
or could you tell by looking at the television and listens
to the television, that your granddaughter was going t°a
white school? A. Yes, sir. They told it on television
The same thing was told on television. (
Q. Did anything unusual happen at the residence o f
daughter, Mary Kingsbury? A. Yes, sir. I didnt see
though. I just heard it. ^
Q. Was there any damage done at the land surro®^
the place where Mary Kingsbury lives? A. ies, su. ^
was a cross burned there first and dynamite wa
there.
Deposition of Buck Norwood
891a
Deposition of Buck Norwood
—205—
Q. How do you know it was dynamite that was shot
there? A. Well, it was a loud fuss, like the other.
Q. First there was—pardon me, what? A. A big blast
like the other one. It dug a big hole there in the ground.
Q. Did you hear a noise? A. I heard it, but I was
asleep. I couldn’t tell what happened.
Q, Did you see the hole in the ground? A. Yes, sir.
The next day I seed the fresh dirt. I didn’t go right
up to the hole.
Q. Where was that hole? Up at the Kingsbury house?
A. Yes, sir. In front of the house. The road come along
there and it was eight or ten foot from the road.
Q. Did anything else unusual happen at the Kingsbury
place? A. Well, later.
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form.
By Mr. Kennedy.
Q. You may answer, sir. A. Go ahead?
Q- Yes, sir. A. Well, later there one night they said
—206-
somebody throwed a torpedo or something or other and
mt â re- Something shot over there in the field.
-eJ looked out the window.
j. ^ as ^re Put out? A. Yes, sir. They happened
' av® a tub of water, where they had it drawed up tQ
as , believe they said, and they took that and put
A T 0 ynU knOW of anything unusual that happened at
Bestdence. A. Yes. sir.
over a ^ y as that? A. Here, I reckon it’s been some
month ago—I don’t know exactly when.
892a
Q. How long ago, sir! A. I say it’s been something
like a month ago.
Q. What happened, sir! A. There was a dynamite Ha
np there one night.
Q. Did you hear an explosion? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it very loud? A. Yes, sir. People came from
over about Ingleside over there. Twixt Louisbarg ail
Youngs ville.
Q. Did you see any evidence of an explosion? A. Yes,
- 201-
sir. There was a hole there at the mailbox, right in front
of my house.
Q. Eight in front of your house? A. You see, the road
runs straight up from my house, and the mailbox is setting
there.
Q. Is the Joyner House approximately across the street
from your house? A. Yes, sir. Across the road. A tiro-
story building. There is a road that runs from my ta®
straight up to Mr. Joyner’s house.
Q. Mr. and Mrs. Joyner are white persons? A . Yes,
sir. He is the law in Franklinton.
Q. Mr. Joyner is? A. He is the law.
Q. A lawyer? A. No, sir. A policeman.
Q. A policeman in Franklinton? A. Yes, sir. That!
right.
Q. Does your daughter, Mary Kingsbury, own or ren
the land she is on? A. They rent.
Q. Who from? A. Mrs. Eubie Joyner.
Q. Have these incidents that have occurred in Y1
- 208-
neighborhood caused you to make any ch an ges ar011!l1'
your house? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What have you changed? A. Well, I bought son
Deposition of Buck Norwood
893a
oak timber and cleaned out and made me another well
curbing.
(Discussion off record)
By Mr. K ennedy:
Q. Did you put a top on your well? A. Yes, sir. And
I bought a brand new lock and locked it.
Q. Did you make any other changes? A. Yes, and I
went and got me a dog and tied him around at the back
of the house and I have got another one that sleeps on
the porch.
Q. You have got two dogs now? A. Yes, sir. So if
anybody comes, they will notify me.
Q. And your wife has been living with you at your
house? A. Yes, sir. She’s been in bad health for over,
for four years.
Q. What kind of bad health? A. Well, she has heart
—209—
trouble and has had a stroke and everything. She ain’t
able to do anything.
Q- Is she able to work? A. No, sir. She ain’t been able
to do anything for four years.
Q. You mentioned that occasionally your granddaughter,
Mabel, comes over and assists you? A. Yes, sir. When
she gets down.
Q' Has anybody else come over to help your wife? A.
i ost all my daughters, and she has a sister that comes
and helps her some.
r Q. Ha\ e any of the neighbors ever come over to help
y ui wife; A. Yes, sir. Mrs. Joyner comes down and
helps when she can.
Q- Mrs. Joyner, across the road? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Buck Norwood
894a
Q. You have gotten along well with her, have you! A
Yes, sir. I ain’t ever had nobody no nicer. She almosi
spend the afternoon with my wife the afternoon this Wait
shot up there.
Q. Have any of the events that we have talked about
this afternoon, did any of them occur prior to the—prior
to a week or so before your granddaughter and your g ra n d
son went to the white school in Franklinton? A . Well,
— 21ft-
I think most of them occurred about the time. It look ed
like it was to keep them from going.
Q. Just answer the question, now. Did any of the dam
age to your well or the damage to your house or the ex
plosions at your house or the Kingbury’s or the Joyner's,
did any of that occur in the years preceding the time that
your grandchildren went to the white school? A. I recta
it did. It was the same length of time. I ain’t got it dated
down.
Q. IJp to the time your grandchildren went to the white
school, had you ever had a blast at your house or ex
plosion? A. No, sir. Ain’t ever had nothing.
Q. Did you ever have anything unusual? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you get along with your neighbors good up to
that time? A. Got along fine for all those years. Thy
have been so nice. They would do anything I asked them-
Q. Do you belong to a church? A. Yes, sir. Hawkins
Chapel Baptist Church.
— 211—
Q. Where is that? A. In the edge of Granville County,
going towards Creedmoor.
Q. Do you hold a position in that church? A. Yes,sir'
Trustee.
Deposition of Buck Norwood
895a
Q, Do you go to church regularly? A. Yes, sir. Every
Sunday. Saturday, too. And Sunday School every Sunday
for years.
Q. Where is your grandson, James Edward, going to
school this year? A. He says he is going hack to B. F.
Person.
Q. Is your granddaughter, Mabel, going to the all white
or to the Negro school this year? A. She is going to the
white, if she goes to ary one. To tell you the truth, she
is supposed to finish this year, but she lacked one unit.
If she goes to summer school, she will finish. If she don’t,
she will go back there, I reckon. Anyhow, she is in the
twelfth grade and supposed to finish.
Q. Mr. Norwood, you have told us about a lot of inci
dents today that have happened to you. A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever testified about these incidents any
other place? A. No, sir.
— 212—
Q. Have you ever talked about explosions and the oil
in your well at any place outside of the State of North
Carolina? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever been to Washington, D. C. ? A. Oh,
yes, sir. I beg your pardon. Yes, sir. I told in Washington
the same thing I am telling you.
Q. When was that, sir? A. Last Monday.
Q' Was it Monday of this week? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did someone from the Government ask you to come
o Washington and talk about these things? A. Yes, sir.
Q- All right, sir.
Mr- Kennedy: No further questions.
Mr. Kennedy: Mr. Chambers ?
Mr. Chambers: I have no questions.
Deposition of Buck Norwood
896a
Cross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Now, Mr. Norwood, of course you live in Franklinton
Township? A. Yes, sir. But not in the town.
Q. You live west of the town? A. Yes, sir.
—213-
Q. On the Old Oxford Road? A. That’s right.
Q. A mile or two, or two miles from the Granville
County line? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That’s right, isn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Granville County? A. Yes, sir. Granville County.
Q. Oxford is the County Seat of that? A. That’s right.
But I stay on this side of the line.
Q. And Franklin County side of the line is a mile or
two from there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You came about thirty-five years ago from Granville
County? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And none of your children had been to the Franklin
County Schools? A. No, sir.
Q. All your dealings were—all your dealings with schools
for the last thirty-five years have been with the Franldinton
-214-
Township Schools? A. Yes, sir. That’s right.
Q. And they operate two schools there, for many years'
B. F. Person School there in the Franklinton PnWh
Schools, and Franklinton High School? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you are not of course saying that the Franklin
County Board of Education had anything on earth to do
with any of that stuff that happened up there, are y011,
A. I don’t think it has got nothing to do with it.
Q. You are not accusing the Franklin County Board o
Education for it? A. No, sir.
Q. You don’t know who did it? A. No, sir.
Deposition of Buck Norwood
897a
Deposition of Buck Norwood
Q. And the Franklinton Township has got its own Board
of Education, hasn’t it, which runs the two schools there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you vote in Franklinton? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you know they have to vote on the members of
that school board, don’t you? A. Yes, sir.
—215—
Q- -̂nd you have voted for some of them in years past?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they have got an election next Monday, I be
lieve? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And several people are running? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Mary Kingsbury is your daughter? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. She married James Kingsbury? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they live on Mr. and Mrs. Joyner’s land? A.
That’s right.
Q. And the time you got the phone calls, you told them
to see James Kingsbury about it; that it wasn’t your
affair? A. Yes, sir.
Q- You didn’t have anything to do with it? A. That’s
right. To tell him.
Q. And your phone works out of Franklinton Exchange,
doesn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You can call anybody in Franklinton from your phone
W1 hout having to get long distance? A. Yes, sir.
Q-Your phone works out of the Franklinton Exchange?
Yes, sir. s
were i^°Se Câ S ^at Y011 got, so far as you know,
ca e 10m that same telephone exchange? A. That’s
898a
Q. It wasn’t a long distance call, was it? A. No, sit
I don’t think so. No.
Q. And for you to call Louisburg, you would have to
call long distance to get anybody over here in Louisburgi
A. Yes, sir. That is true.
Q. And Mr. Goldberg, the F. B. I. man, he came to
several times, didn’t be! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was be ever able to find out who did it, so far as
you know? A. No. Not as I know of.
Q. And of course Mr. Leslie Joyner, be is getting MhI
of old, too, isn’t be? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Getting along in years? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And be is a policeman in Franklinton? A. Yes, sit
—217-
Q. And has been for the last several years? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And be has always treated you mighty nice! A
Yes, sir.
Q. And Mrs. Joyner has? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the other white people, whenever you needed
help, they would come to your help? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And if your wife was sick, they would come and help
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you own your own place? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You bought that from a white man, Mr. Jenk®
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Bought it on credit and paid for it? A. Yes, sir
Q. And got along with him fine, didn’t you? Y ;
sir. , g
Q. And all your neighbors up there, so far as you 11
were fine people? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Buck Norwood
899a
Q. Both white and colored! A. Yes, sir. That’s right.
Q. And the school people in Franklinton have always
treated you mighty nice! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Mr. Rogers and others? A. Yes. I have had no
dealings with him,—just seeing him.
Q. You know him and you knew Mr. Mangrum? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And he is retired now from active work! A. Yes,
sir.
Q. I believe he is running for the Board of Education
about this time, isn’t he? A. Yes, sir. I think so. Yes,
sir.
Q. And to get on the Board over there, you have to be
elected to it? You have to run for the job? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And your two grandchildren, Mabel and James Ed
ward, are your daughter, Mary’s children? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And which one is it that hopes to graduate? Mabel,
isn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
— 219—
Q- And she might lack one credit? One unit? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And you say she can go to summer school this sum
mer? A. Yes, sir.
Q- Where is that summer school? In Raleigh or Frank-
niton, or where? A. I think she was speaking about go-
mg to Henderson.
Q. They have summer schools certain places around, is
, ai A. Yes, sir. Don’t they have one in Hen
derson?
Q- You are right. But they don’t have one in Frank-
hnton? A. No, sir.
Q- She can come back and graduate from Franklinton
len s e makes up that credit in summer school? A.
Deposition of Buck Norwood
900a
Deposition of Buck Norwood
Yes, sir. That’s correct.
Q. She told you she likes the school and wants to go
back? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Everybody treated her mighty nice? A. Yes, sir,
Q. Mr. Rogers was very fine and nice to her? A. Yes,
sir. She said they were.
- 220-
Q. They were all nice to her? A. Yes. I haven’t heard
a word that happened at any of the schools. She rides
the bus and gets on the school bus by herself. She is tie
only Negro that gets on the bus.
Q. The bus stops in front of your house? A. Yes, sir,
Q. And she gets on it and rides to school? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And comes back on it in the afternoons? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And she used to go to the Person School, and she
rode that bus? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Whichever school she is going to, she rides the bus
that takes care of the children in that school, isn’t that
right? A. Yes, sir. That’s right.
Q. And I don’t believe you knew Mr. Smith, the Super
intendent here, did you, until today? A. No, sir.
Q. And do you know who’s on the County Board of Edu
cation? Your County? Not the Franklinton City, buttle
Franklin County Board? A. No, sir. I don’t.
- 221-
Q. Do you know any of the members of the Franklinton
Board? A. Yes, sir. I know Mr. Pearce and Mr. Howard
Conyers.
Q. Mr. Conyers? A. And Mr. G-reene.
Q. Mr. Rupert Pearce and Dr. Whitfield? A. Yes, sir
901a
Q. And Mr. Brodie Greene, isn’t it? A. Yes, sir. Mr.
Brodie, that’s right.
Q. And Mr. John Moore had been on it, hadn’t he? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. You know Mr. Moore, don’t you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He is a mighty nice man, isn’t he? A. Yes, sir.
He certainly is.
Q. And in this case you are in over here is a case against
the Franklin County Board of Education, you haven’t
got a thing in the world against the Franklin County Board
of Education, have you? A. No, sir. I ain’t accusing
them of nothing.
Q. You don’t have any complaint against the Franklin
County Board of Education at all? A. No, sir.
— 222—
Q. And you have been treated all right over here today,
haven’t you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Folks have been nice to you, everybody you dealt
with over here today? A. Yes, sir.
Q- And if your granddaughter does not graduate and
cannot make up that unit this coming summer, she expects
to go back to the same school and graduate next year?
A. I think so.
Q. And do you know a man by the name of Mr. Horace
Baker? A. No, I don’t know him.
Q. Or Mr. Richard Cash? He is a member of the County
oard of Education? A. No, sir. I don’t know him. 1
have never met him.
Q. Or Mr. Lloyd West? He is a member of the County
oard of Education? A. No, sir. I don’t know him.
[*• 0r Mr- William Taylor Boone? A. No, sir.
0i Mr. Clint Fuller? A. No, sir. I don’t know him.
Deposition of Buck Norwood
Deposition of Buck Norwood
— 223-
Q. A member of the County Board of Education? A,
No, sir. I don’t know Mm.
Q. I don’t suppose you even knew me before today!
A. No, sir. I know your name.
Q. You don’t have much business in Louisburg, anyhow,
do you! A. Well, I come down here a lot.
Q. You also get along all right over here, don’t you!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You come and go anytime you want to over here and
attend to your business and people treat you all right over
here! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have to come to the County A. S. C. Offics
about your crop! A. Yes, sir.
Q. They treat you all right! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the bank and courthouse, they treat you all
right! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you pay your taxes over here! A. Sometimes,
Q. And sometimes over in Eranklinton! A. That’s right
— 224-
Q. You have got a man in Franklinton that collects
county taxes over there! A. Yes, sir. Mr. Jones.
Q. He stays at the county office and collects taxes for
the people that live in that section! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Or you pay it at the county tax office over here? Y<®
pay it either place! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And these phone calls and this dynamite and other
things, of course you have no idea who did it! A. H
sir.
Q. You can’t call the names! A. No, sir.
Q. And the very night that the dynamite went off, rs_
Joyner called you to reassure you she had already ca
the law! A. Yes, sir.
903a
Q. Did she come over there or telephone yon! A. Tele
phoned me.
Q. Are you all on the same line? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Same phone line? A. Yes, sir.
—225—
Q. All right. Thank you, Mr. Norwood.
Mr. Yarborough: That i s all I have.
Mr. Chambers: Let me ask one or two questions.
By Mr. Chambers (To t h e w i t n e s s ) :
Q. Mr. Norwood, the county seat of Franklin County is
Louisburg? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And have you been over here to the courthouse very
much; A. Yes, sir. I was on the jury. I am expecting
to be on the Crank Jury the eighth of May. This will make
three times.
Q. Is this the first time, your being on the jury? A.
This here will be my third time.
Q. When was the first time you were on the jury? A.
bet’s see. Last year, and then in January I was on the
M a y ',Ury’ agam? and ^ is suPPosed to be the eighth of
Q- So all of this has been within about the last year?
A. Yes, sir.
w i Dl? -you visit the court before then? A- Yes> sir. Just Poking, sometimes. Yes.
Q- Was there a water fountain in the court? A. Yes,
sir. 226—
g'roL^A b a V e a s e P a r a t e w a t e r f o u n t a i n f o r Ne-
seen „„ , There were Just two there. I never
“ no Drink out of either one.
Deposition of Buck Norwood
904a
Q. You drank out of either one? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did they have the same restroom there? A. Well,
they’s different.
Q. They have separate restrooms for Negroes and
whites? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever seen the county tax books? A. Not
only when, when they take up taxes.
Q. Do you know whether they have separate tax hooks
for Negroes and whites? A. No, sir. I don’t.
Q. Now, you never did have any trouble, as I under
stand you, prior to your grandchildren going to the white
schools? A. No, sir. Never had.
Q. You had gotten along fine when they were going to
the Negro schools? A. Yes, sir. That’s right.
Q. And when they were going to the white schools is
—227—
when you started having your trouble? A. That’s right.
Q. And you say your granddaughter is going to have
to go to summer school out of the county? A. Well, I
reckon so. There is not one, I don’t think, in the county.
Q. They don’t have one in the county? A. I don’t
know. I don’t think so.
Q. You don’t know anything about the schools in Frank-
linton, do you? A. Well, I ain’t ever been. I don’t know
nothing about the white schools. I ain’t had no dealings
up there with those people.
Q. Were your children the first Negroes to go to the
white school? A. Yes, sir. And the only ones out of that
section.
Q. And the only ones out of that section? A. Yes, sir.
The section I am in.
Q. Okay. No further questions.
Deposition of Buck Norwood
905a
Recross-Examination toy Mr. Yarborough-.
Q. Mr. Norwood, I believe you say you are now serving-
on the grand jury? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the grand jury’s names are drawn out of a hat
—228—
by a child? A. I don’t know how they draw it.
Q. You were in court the day they drew your name to
start with? A. No, sir. If I ain’t mistaken, the sheriff
or somebody draws them.
Q. And they put you on it? A. Yes, sir. And I gets
a card.
Q. Then you come to court and then you get put on the
grand jury, after you get here. That’s right, isn’t it?
A. I don’t know. I think they draw them and when I get
the card my name is on it.
Q. There are two or three colored people on the grand
jury? A. Yes, sir.
Q* Several with you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you all sit there altogether? A. Yes, sir.
Q. White and colored all sit together on the grand jury?
A. Yes, sir.
Q- And you all meet in the same room? A. Yes, sir.
—229—
H- And you don’t mind serving on it, do you, Mr. Nor
wood? A. No, sir.
Q- And I know you don’t want to say anything wrong?
A. No, sir.
Q. But I will ask you if you don’t know that the rest-
nis in the courthouse don’t have any sign on them
escept maybe “men” or “women” ? You go down to the
asement restrooms? A. Yes, sir.
Q- I know you don’t want to say anything wrong, but
Deposition of Buck Norwood
906a
I will ask you if it isn’t true there is no name as to white
or colored? A. I haven’t been to but just this one.
Q. You couldn’t say? A. No, sir.
Q. You couldn’t say whether there was a sign on the
door other than maybe “men” or “women” ? A. No, sir.
Q. You are not saying “colored men” ? A. No, sir.
Q. You went to the same one all the time? A. Yes,
sir.
—230—
Q. And you saw other colored men in there? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And you go down a set of steps on the outside to the
basement? A. Yes, sir.
(Discussion off Eecord)
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q, Now, you called the white school in Franklinton, but
your grandchildren did go there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And there are some colored children that have been
going there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Even though you call it “white’, there are some of
both race there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you call it a white school, you mean the school
your grandchildren went to? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this year it had a colored teacher? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Had a colored teacher there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And you don’t know anything at all about
—231—
the Franklin County System of Schools, how they run or
anything else, do you? A. Nothing much, just to tell
the truth.
Deposition of Buck Norwood
907a
Q. All right. Thank you. That is all, Mr. Norwood.
Mr. Chambers: I don’t have any questions.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Thank you, Mr. Norwood.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
—2—
Robert L a t h a m , being first sworn, was examined and
testified as follow:
Direct Examination by Mr. Kennedy:
Q. State your name and address, please. A. Robert
Latham, Fort Gordon, Georgia.
Q. What is your age, please? A. Thirty-five.
—3—
Q. What is your present occupation? A. Chaplain,
United States Army.
Q. Have you previously resided in Franklin County,
North Carolina? A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. Were you previously a witness for the United States
in the case of Coppedge, et al., versus the Franklin County
Board of Education? A. That’s correct.
Q. When did you testify in this case, sir, previously? A.
t must have been the early part of last summer.
Q- That is, 1966? A. That’s correct.
Q' At that time what was your position as regarding
employment? A. I was superintendent of Commissions for
tar River Association.
Q. Are you a minister or preacher with the Baptist
Church? A. That’s correct.
Q' Did you have a child or children in school in school in
nanklin County at the time? A. Yes.
908a
Q. Your residence was in Franklin County1? A. That’s
correct.
Q. Did you become aware that other people knew that
you had testified in this case? A. Yes, quite sure.
Q. How did you become aware—strike that, please. What
kind of reactions did you experience after you testified in
this case? A. Most of them were quite negative. Rumors
about my testimony, such as that I was obviously a plant
for the N A A C P to try to get all school system here inte
grated, and this was one of the reasons why I testified.
That my testimony was going to cost the County a half a
million dollars in federal funds. Rumors of this nature.
Also, there, immediately after my testimony, there began
to be what appeared to be an organized effort on the part
of a group of lay people in the area to get funds cut off
from the Association so as to squeeze me out of my posi
tion financially.
Q. Who paid your salary at this time? A. Well, since
the Association—a group of Baptist all contributed volun
tarily to a common pool of money, and then a budget is
prescribed on the basis of this type of income.
Q. Who are members of the Tar River Association? A.
The churches in Franklin County and some churches in
■—5—
Nash County.
Q. Approximately how many of the members of the ar
River Association—how many of the churches are loca e
in Franklin County? A. Probably about sixty-five or sev
enty percent, about sixty-five or seventy probably.
Q. Do you have a knowledge or an estimate as to ie
number, a total number of residents of Franklin oun y
who directly or indirectly, through their various oc
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham,
909a
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham,
churches, belong to the Tar River Baptist Association?
A. Well, as far as the white population is concerned I’d
say that over—I’d say at least a majority of the Franklin
County people are related in some way to these churches.
This is only an educated guess.
Q. I see. Following your testimony in this case last year
was there any change—did you experience any change in
the amount of what you call voluntary contribution of the
member churches to the Association? A. Yes.
Q. Did it increase or decrease? A. No. There were some
churches that voted to no longer contribute to the Associa
tion.
Q. Does the Association employ persons in addition to
yourself at that time? A. No. I am the only employee.
Q. Did your employment at the time involve you with
visiting and talking to pastors and members of the con
gregation of the various churches? A. Yes.
Q. Were you in contact with most or all of the officials
of the local Baptist Churches that were members of the
Association? A. I had some contact with responsible lead
ership in most of the churches.
Q. Are any of the members of the Association Negro
citizens? A. No. To my knowledge.
Q- They are all white? A. That’s correct.
Q. Were you yourself a member of one of the individual
baptist Churches in Franklin County? A. Yes, I was.
Q. Which one was that? A. Duke Memorial Baptist
t-hurch.
Q’ Where is that located? A. In the Justice Community.
' ^ y°u also reside in that community? A. Yes, I
_rj_
lived out there.
910a
Q. I believe you previously testified in the earlier deposi
tion that Reverend Luther Coppedge also resides in the
Justice Community. Is that correct? A. That’s correct,
Q. You knew him? A. Yes.
Q. Did you have a visitation from an official of the Date
Memorial Church following your testimony last year? i
Yes.
Q. Who visited you? A. The pastor of the church, Rev
erend George Bhroom, and one of the deacons in the church,
Q. Anybody else? A. One of the deacons in the church
Mr. Yarborough: Who was the pastor?
A. George Bhroom.
Mr. Yarborough: Who was the other—
A. Joe Perry.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. What was the nature of the topics which you dis
cussed at that meeting? A. They indicated that a grouP
had met in the church to discuss church finances, budget
for the coming year, and that they had been requested^
come by and ask me whether I was going to leave the
Association or stay.
Q. What did you inform them, what did you tell them
you were going to leave or stay, or not? A. No, I ® 11
give them any information.
Q. Did you, in fact, later leave the Association? A. es>
I did.
Q. When was that? A. 9 January.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
911a
Q. How did you come to part ways with the Association?
A. Well, actually, there are probably two reasons—a neg
ative and a positive.
Q. Excuse me. How—did you resign or did you just
leave? A. Yes, I resigned.
Q. What were your reasons for resigning? A. Prob
ably all of them can be lumped together into two, a nega
tive and a positive reason. The first one was probably a
professional reason, which had to do with the desire to
move in some area where my education and ministry could
probably be more provable and receive more positive re
sponse. And the second one had to do with a situation of
intimidation in the community that had been going on for
a considerable length of time, not only in regard to me,
—9—
but particularly in regard to my family.
Q. I believe you testified already—perhaps you haven’t
testified. Would you tell us what has occurred to your
family? A. Well, we had nails strewn in our driveway;
upon a number of occasions we received telephone calls
with heavy breathing on the other end. My wife received
a death threat telephone call. My boy was called Negro
lover at school and he was told that the Klan was going
10 kill his father. This general type of—and then the over-
011 attempt to intimidate financially made for a great deal
of insecurity on the part of the family, and I felt that I
id not want my family to be raised in that type of atmo
sphere.
Q- In your professional capacity had you endeavored to
o e a position of—a question of race relations between
whites and Negroes of Franklin County? A. Yes.
Q' What was that position? A. My position was, also,
6re were ŵo en(Is of the law and both ends have to be
Deposition of Buck Norwood
912a
carried—have to carry out their obligations and respon
sibility, on the part of both the Negro and the white of
- 1 0 -
the community.
Q. Had you made your position known to the members
of the Association! A. Yes.
Q. Had you received support from the members of the
Association for your position! A. I received both positive
and negative response to this position. Generally, negative
response.
Q. Following the testimony you gave in this case, did
you become aware of an order issued by the Court? A.
Yes. Yes.
Q. Are you generally familiar with the contents of the
order! A. Well, about. Yes, I think so, generally so. Yon
are speaking of the one that had to do wTith an attempt
to reopen the freedom of choice?
Q. That’s correct. A. Right.
Q. Is that correct? A. Opportunities.
Q. Did you endeavor to do anything to encourage com
pliance with this order, to encourage persons to make the
order work? A. Yes, I did.
— 11-
Q. What did you do? A. Well, generally, I just—I spoke
to pastors and other responsible leaders and indicated to
them that I felt like for the sake of community harmony
and peace and the whole future of the County that the
issue needed to be faced, and that these—that all the citi
zens of the community needed to be dealt with fairly.
Q. What is the issue that you spoke to the pastors abon ,
and said needed to be faced? A. Honesty in terms of the
whole problem of integration.
Q. Did you encourage other persons to try and make
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
913a
provisions of the Court order work? A. I simply encour
aged some of the pastors and other lay leadership that it
now face the issue positively and approach it from the
standpoint of Christian perspective.
Q. Did you last fall have an opinion as to whether the
relations between Negro and white citizens in Franklin
County was improving or was not improving, according
to your own principles and ideas as to what progress should
be!
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form of your
question.
Mr. Kennedy (to witness): You can answer.
— 12—
A. I do not feel that relationships were improving. In
fact, I felt like they were becoming more volatile. I did
feel like the opportunity was open, however, to bring about
some resolution, at least partial resolution beginning of
the problems.
Q. Was the question of race relations in Franklin County
one of the important issues that you addressed yourself to
in your work? A. Yes.
Q. When did you enter the United States Army, sir? A.
in January.
Q. And you are in the Chaplains Corps there? A.
That’s correct.
Q. And what is your rank? A. Captain.
Q. Does your family present reside with you in Georgia?
A. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy: I have no further questions.
Mr. Chambers: We have no questions.
914a
Direct Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mr. Latham, you said you testified in Raleigh some
time during the past summer. That is correct, isn’t it! A,
It might have been the spring.
-13-
Q. Spring or summer—you did testify in Raleigh! A,
Yes, sir.
Q. At a hearing similar to this one? A. That’s correct
Q. And you say that soon thereafter people seemed to
know that you had testified there ? A. That’s correct.
Q. Did you tell them that you had testified? A. Well,
several of the pastors knew.
Q. Did you tell them? A. Yes.
Q. And do you know the source of the so-called rumors
to what your testimony had been? A. I do not know the
source. I know that these rumors came from church group
meetings to me.
Q. Well, do you know who revealed the contents or re
vealed the effect of your testimony to those groups? A
I do not know that.
Q. Did you know that those depositions were filed with
the District Court in Raleigh and were not to be opened or
revealed to the public? A. I am not aware of what hap
pened to the depositions.
Q. The only persons present from Franklin County a
those hearings, other than the persons testifying, are - r'
— 14-
Smith and myself—that’s correct, isn’t it? A. As far®
my testimony is concerned I think that is correct.
Q. Yes, sir. And you didn’t get any rumors of ei «
Mr. Smith or myself had revealed what you had tesl
to, did you? A. I did not get any rumors as to the source.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
915a
Q. A n ri you are not undertaking to say now that either
Mr. Smith or myself, say, told what you testified? A. All
I am doing is stating that the rumors were started.
Q. My question: you are not attempting to state that
either Mr. Smith or myself, either, revealed any of your
testimony? A. I would not make that statement unless I
knew that was a fact.
Q. Of course, you are not making that statement, are
you? A. I do not—am not making that statement because
I do not know of its factuality.
Q. Have you heard rumors to that effect? A. I have not
heard rumors as to the source.
Q. Now, who conveyed some of these rumors to you, as
you recall? A. Pastors of various churches, discussions
—15—
that went on in various leadership meetings in the churches
in which this was brought up.
Q. Could you recall any of the names of the churches?
A. Yes, I could, but I would prefer not to mention them.
Mr. Kennedy: (to witness) You can answer the
question.
A. All right.
(Discussion off record.)
A. I can recall all the names.
Mr. Yarborough: Just withdraw that question.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q' Now, Mr. Latham, of course, the Baptist Churches
are congregational type churches? A. That’s correct.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
916a
Q. You have no episcopal control over there, like bishops
or other types of ecclesiastical authority? A. That’s right.
Q. And you all I guess call yourselves a missionary Bap
tist as distinguished from Free Will Baptist? A. That is
really not a good definition. There is a sector of Baptist
called Missionary Baptist.
Q. What is yours? A. Southern Baptist is the best dis
tinctive type.
Q. And those who enter the organization of Southern
Baptist Churches, or Baptist Churches with which youm
—16-
affiliated, the congregations call them ministers? A. That’s
correct.
Q. And ministers serve at the will of the congregation;
A. That’s correct.
Q. And the congregations have a right to accept i®
membership into their churches whomsoever they desire.
A. That’s correct.
Q. And they do have a means of expelling members.
Q. And it is all within the individual congregations! A
Tlia-t’s right. .i
Q. And that is the standard authorization of the Bap®
Churches with which you were affiliated? A. Cong®?
tional type government, you’re talking about?
Q. Yes. A. That’s correct. ,s
Q. And all of those churches or none of those c
with which you were affiliated here had any connection
the government or State or any type of official bodie j|
were all freely organized religious associations.
correct.
Q. Of the congregations? A . That’s correct.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
917a
Q. And the members though, the members of it had the
right to worship God according to the dictates of their own
conscious! A. That’s correct, with certain stipulations.
Q. Stipulations of what, the Divinity of Jesus Christ, and
so forth, or what? A. No, as to the nature of Christianity
and as to the nature of the basic doctrines of the church.
For instance, that God is no respecter of persons or broth
erhood of mankind. In other words, there is what we would
call a doctrine or spiritual check on church government.
It is not just a free wheeling type thing. It is a spiritual
democracy.
Q. It is all based on the Holy Scriptures? A. Right.
Q. And you, on this interim Court order, you knew that
the Judge ordered the reopening of freedom of choice to
colored citizens of the County? A. That’s correct.
Q. And only to the colored citizens in that interim order
last summer? A. Yes.
Q. That was correct, wasn’t it?
—18—
Mr. Kennedy: Objection.
A. Yes, sir. This was my only concern really at that time.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q- Well, that was what the Judge ordered the Board of
Education to do, was to reopen the freedom of choice period
for a stated length of time—two weeks as I recall it—to
give all of the colored citizens of the Franklin County ad
ministrative unit to again exercise free choice, again, for
that fall for school opening? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And so far as you know they were all given an oppor
tunity to make a selection of freedom of choice ?
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
918a
Mr. Kennedy: Objection.
Mr. Chambers : Objection.
A. So far as I know they were, yes.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. And school opened in the fall? A. Yes, so farad
know.
Q. You sent your child to school? A. Right.
Q. And you stayed in your position as missionary or-
I didn’t get the name. A. Right.
Q. Missionary of the Tar River Association, until til;
ninth of January? A. That’s correct.
—19-
Q. And then yon left and entered the United States
Army? A. That’s correct.
Q. Had yon previously been in the Army? A. No.
Q. And so yon made application for that position, also
several months before I guess? A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember how long? A. Yes, sir. I maot
application in August.
Q. In August? A. That’s correct, without any definite
commitment. ,
Q. Yes, but you did apply in August for a position11
the Corps of Chaplains, I believe they call it? A eS>
that’s right. .
Q. Well, Mr. George Bhroom was the regular past°j1
Duke Memorial Baptist Church at that time ? A. Yes.
iS r ig h t • nftbQ. And Mr. Joe Perry was what—the Chairman ̂^
Board of Deacons? A. Not the chairman. He was
deacon.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
919a
Q. Who was the chairman at that time? Do you recall?
A. I do not remember at this point.
Q. And your Association had a what—a Board of Direc-
— 20-
tors? A. Had an executive committee.
Q. And who constituted that? I ’m not interested in
names so much as members in each church? A. Right.
Representatives from the various congregations.
Q. And the number of those representatives based on the
size of the congregations, or every one had the same ? A.
It was a static representation, like a senate.
Q. Each one have a certain number? A. Right.
Q. And their contribution is based on individual churches
or a budget or membership? A. It was varied.
Q. Some churches contributed more than others? A.
Yes.
Q. Based on some budget of the local church or the mem
bership of the local church? A. Right, right.
Q. And the Association’s executive board would meet and
Prepare a budget and notify each church of what its con
tribution was expected to be, is that it? A. No, not really.
ere was a suggestion of a per capita type amount to be
given.
Q. And you were, of course, in charge of the finances of
the Association? A. No.
Q- Well, you made a report monthly— A. No.
rm . ° r sometime, in what was the “Highlights” ? A. Yes.
T* ^as the treasurer’s report, not mine.
rect BUt 7°U PuUished the “Highlights” ? A. That’s cor-
Q- That was a monthly— A. Newspaper, letter.
0 Aê Spaper’ out to all the churches? A. Right.
n sufficient copies were distributed to the churches
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
920a
so that many, if not all, the members could get a copy? A.
Yes.
Q. It wasn’t just one report to a church, but a large num
ber? A. That’s right.
Q. And that concerned the financial statement of the
treasury? A. That’s correct.
Q. And it contained a resume of your activities as mis
sionary, somewhat a resume of it? A. Sometimes. From
time to time.
- 22-
Q. And an editorial or pastoral comment by you usu
ally? A. Eight.
Q. And you said you had how many churches—about how
many? A. In the whole Association, 39.
Q. 39. And a great bulk of those were in Franklin Coun
ty? A. A majority of those were in Franklin County.
Q. Banging from a fairly large church in Louisburg to
some comparatively small churches in rural sections? A.
That’s right.
Q. When the Reverend Mr. Bhroom and Mr. Joe Pei'r)
called on you, do you recall when that was, the appron
mate time ? A. If I recall correctly, it was either the last
of August or the first of September.
Q. And that was 1966? A. That’s correct.
Q. And you gave them no definite answer either way
A. That’s correct. _
Q. Were they the representatives of Duke Memorial wio
were on the executive board or— A. Mr. Bhroom, by vir
tue of being pastor, was on the executive board.
Q. All pastors of churches in your Association were?
Yes, that’s correct.
Q. How about Mr. Joe Perry? A. No, sir.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
921a
Q. He was not. Just a deacon of the Duke Memorial
Church— A. Duke Memorial.
Q. —as far as his official capacity, is all! A. That’s
right.
Q. And is that Mr. Joe E. Perry? A. I don’t know
whether that middle initial is correct. Sells Watkins prod
ucts.
Q. Yes. I was trying to identify him. He is the one that
lives between Duke Memorial Church and Edward Best?
A. That’s right.
Q. Somewhere near Mr. Johnson Nash’s store, is that cor
rect? A. Yes, he lives about, oh, I ’d say half a mile from
Duke Memorial Baptist Church.
Q. Towards the Edward Best School? A. Towards the
Edward Best School, correct.
Q. And you lived—your parsonage—I guess you would
call it— and your place of residence, was at Duke Memorial
Church, close by? A. Yes. About a block from it.
—24—
Q. And your membership was in that church and your
place of worship? A. That’s right.
Q. And you have one child of school age? A. Yes.
Q- At that time? A. That’s right.
Q- What was it—boy or girl? A. Boy.
Q. What age was he? Approximate age, I mean. A.
Eight—nine.
Q- What about the third or fourth grade? A. Right.
Q- And he was going to Edward Best School? A. Ele
mentary School, correct.
Q- Yes, sir. And you say there were some remarks made
°f ™ at -hool? A. Yes, and out of school.
J*' children in his grade? A. Yes.
Q- Eight or nine year old children? A. Right.
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham,
922a
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
Q. And you knew, of course, Mr. Warren Smith, here?
A. That’s right.
-25-
Q. And knew he was Superintendent of School? A.
That’s correct.
Q. Of the County. Did you ever complain to him or
convey to him any complaints about remarks made to your
child? A. Not to the best of my knowledge, no. I took
care of those otherwise.
Q. You did? A. Yes.
Q. In your own way? A. That is correct. I knew where
they came from.
Q. Yes. I say in your own way you took care of those
complaints? A. That’s correct.
Q. And sometime during the summer of 1966 you con
cluded that the education—or you concluded that you
should move into an area where the education of the peo
ple and—where your education and ministry could he more
effective? A. Where my education—where my training,
education could be more effective and where there w a s a
more responsive group of people.
Q. Yes, sir. But you hoped the people with whom yon
dealt would be more responsive to your efforts? A. T h a t s
correct.
— 2b—
Q. And, of course, during that summer you felt that pos
sibly the U. S. Army would be a good field? A . T a s
correct. . ? ^
Q. In which to carry on your missionary activities.
That’s correct. ,
Q. And, of course, those twenty-eight or so chuic e
your Association, located in Franklin County, contain
very fine people? A. Oh, that’s correct. live3
Q. Many of whom strove diligently to order
923a
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
according to the teachings of Jesus Christ? A. I ’d say that
was correct, yes.
Q. And the pastors of those twenty or thirty churches
in Franklin County were very dedicated ministers? A.
Say from the standpoint of their own personal viewpoints
they were, yes.
Q. From their own viewpoints? A. Yes.
Q. And that is one of the tenets of the Baptist Churches,
that the pastors are not graded by any higher ecclesiastical
authority? A. That’s correct.
Q. And the contributions by the member churches of your
Association—by that we are talking about the Baptist Asso
ciation, or even memberships of the individual churches
-27-
within that Association, is entirely voluntary? A. That’s
correct.
Q- They could join or not join? A. That’s correct.
Q. Or withdraw if they saw fit? A. That’s correct.
Q. That was entirely a congregational matter? A.
That’s right.
Q. And how are churches, if you know, admitted into
membership of the Association? A. By the vote of the
Association.
Q- That is, of the executive board or— A. No, the total
Association.
Q' You mean by churches or by members? A. Bv rep
resentatives of the— ‘
Q- Of the churches? A. Of the congregations, right,
t course, there are some several thousand indepen-
timv/nT mrS °f the cllurc}les tllat comprise this Associa- tlon? A. That’s right.
tion ? ld y°U receive any applications, or did the Associa
te any applications of membership of churches
924a
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham
while you were missionary! A. Yes.
Q. What churches, do you remember? A. Harris Chapel
Church.
Q. And it was admitted? A. That’s correct.
Q. Were there any others? A. No.
Q. Then so far as you know, during your tenure of mis
sionary—would you call yourself the executive officer of
the Association or the chief executive officer— A. Really,
perhaps it is major advisor.
Q. All the communications come to you, of the Associa
tion? A. No, not all of them. Some of them come to the
moderator or the other officers in the Association.
Q. What is the position of authority of the moderator!
A. Well, he assumes the basic prerogatives that any other
moderator would assume in our organizational instrncture.
Q. So far as you know the Harris Chapel Church, or
Harris Chapel, was the only one that applied that was ad
mitted? A. Yes.
Q. During your time ? A. Yes. —29--
Q. Do you have any idea how many colored Baptist
churches there are in Franklin County? I mean colored
Baptist churches of substantially the same d o ctr in e as-
A. No, not really, because their association cuts across the
County. There is no corresponding lines, so that my knoni
ede of Negro churches does not run concurrent with County
lines.
Q. The Baptist churches comprised predominant v.
wholly, or partially of colored people have an association,
also? A. Yes, they have an association.
Q. And so far as you know that is voluntary? -C !
yes.
-28-
925a
Mr. Yarborough: Thank you, Mr. Latham. That’s
all I have.
Redirect Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Sometime back Mr. Yarborough asked you, I think,
that so far as you knew the School Board—strike that.
Sometime back Mr. Yarborough asked you if so far as you
knew the Negro students were given a second freedom of
choice pursuant to the order of the Court. Could you ex
plain that? Your answer was yes. A. What—I was aware
—30—
of this, but this does not necessarily mean that I felt that
it would work.
Q. You mean that so far as you knew the School Board
conducted another choice period following the Court’s in
terim order? A. Yes, so far as I know the School Board
did this, but I—but this doesn’t mean that I assume this
would be any contribution to the solution of the problem.
Mr. Chambers: That’s all.
Witness excused.
Deposition of Christopher Neal
Chkistopheb Neal, being first duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows:
Direct Examination by Mr. Kennedy.
Q- Would you state your name, please? A. Christopher
Neal.
Q. Address? A. 822 Kenmore Avenue, Louisburg, North
Carolina.
Q. How old are you? A. Sixteen.
926a
Q. What is your race? A. Negro.
Q. Where are you going to school now? A. Louisburg
High School.
Q. What grade? A. Sophomore. Tenth grade.
Q. Where did you go to school last year? A. Riverside
Union.
Q. What grade? A. Ninth.
Q. Had you ever attended Louisburg High School prior
to this year? A. Yes.
Q. For how long? A. For approximately two days.
Q. What year was that, sir? A. 1965 and ’66 school
term.
Q. The two days that you attended, what month were
they? A. September.
Q. The first two days of school? A. Yes.
Q. Anything unusual happen to you while you were there?
A. Yes.
Q. What was that, please? A. I was called racial names.
- 3 2 -
Q. What names were you called? A. Nigger.
Q. Who called you the names? A. The names of the
students ?
Q. Was it students? A. Yes.
Q. How many times were you called that? A. Approxi
mately ten.
Q. Anything else unusual happen? A. I was—spit balls
was thrown at me.
Q. Anything else? A. And papers. And my desk was
kicked, so forth.
Q. Your desk was kicked, you say? A. Yes.
Q. By whom? A. By a student.
Q. Where did you eat lunch? A. In the cafeteria.
Deposition of Christopher Neal
- 3 1 -
927a
Q. Anything unusual happen there? A. No.
Q. Where did you sit when you ate lunch? A. I sat
at the table by myself.
Q. How many seats were at the table? A. Eight.
Q. Where did you go to school after you left Louisburg?
—33—
A. Riverside.
Q. Did you go, when you left Louisburg, did you go to
Riverside the next day? A. Yes.
Q. So there was no delay in your-— A. No.
Q. From the time you went to Riverside and Louisbursr?
A. No.
Q. Did you leave Louisburg one afternoon and go to
Riverside the next morning? A. Yes.
Q. At the time that you started at Louisburg for the
present year have you—have persons at school called you
names that are offensive to you? A. Yes.
Q. What names? A. Nigger black and blacky.
Q. Who called you that? The students or teachers? A
Students.
Q- Did the teachers ever call you names? A. No.
Q. How many times were you called these offensive
names? A. The present year?
Q- Yes, sir. A. I can’t count them. It’s a lots of times.
Q- Well, can you give—do you have an estimate of the
mini er of times? A. Oh, about a hundred, or more
man that.
tin p ld y°U 6Ver reeeive anY kind of communication from
° 16r any other person, or any kind of writing? A.
q ^ld you ever receive a drawing or— A. Yes.
^ Y°U did- When was that, sir? A. Wednesday.
Deposition of Christopher Neal
928a
Q. H ow many days ago was it! A. About two days.
Q. Two days ago? A. Two or three.
Q. Where did you find this writing? A. In my locker,
Q. And where is that—at school? A. Yes.
Q. Was your locker locked at the time? A. No.
Q. It was open? A. Yes.
Q. Were there any words written on this piece of paper!
A. Yes.
-35-
Q. What were the words? A. Go Ruffin.
Q. How do you spell that? A. R-TT-F-F-I-N.
Q. What or who is Ruffin? A. That is one of the stu
dents at Louisburg, Negro students.
Q. What was his name? A. Ruffin Gill.
Q. What grade is he in? A. Eleventh.
Q. Are there—do you know any other students at Louis
burg whose name is Ruffin? A. No.
Q. Ruffin Giles a friend of yours? A. Yes.
Q. You pal around with him? A. Yes.
Q. At school. You sit with him at lunch? A. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy: (To Witness) Can I have the note,
please. ...
I ’d like to mark this note as Government’s Ed11
4, I believe it is. And I will show it to the otto
lawyers and ask that it be put into an envelope, {
— tJw
envelope marked “Obscene,” and attached to
deposition.
(Exhibit marked for identification)
Deposition of Christopher Neal
929a
Deposition of Christopher Neal
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Have you seen any unusual writing or unusual words
written in the school? A. Yes.
Q. What words were those, sir? A. Ku Klux Klan.
Q. Where did you see that written? A. On the bulletin
boards and scratched on the desk.
Q. Anything unusual ever happen at the seat where you
sit? A. Yes.
Q. What was that? A. Paper thrown.
Q. Did you ever find anything in your seat? A. No.
Q. Do you know of any students who ever had any tacks
orpins— A. Yes.
Q. Who were they? A. I have.
Q. Where did you have the tacks—find the tacks or pins?
A. Under the chair and on the back of the chair.
Q. What did you do when you found them? A. I took
__37__
them to the teacher.
Q- Was the teacher in your classroom? A. Yes.
f What did ,the teacher do ? A. Removed the tacks and
doro Sa*> n°^dng' d iust carne back to the chair and sat
siW' * y°U llave anA idea—do you know who is respon-
e or the pins and tacks in the seat? A. No.
V- Did you ever find out? A. No.
Q. Did you know if the teacher ever found out? A. No.
cia„l ° y°Ur kn<nv'le(lge did the teacher ever address the
edge? No6nUng ^ PinS °n y0Ur seat? A - To knowl-
D mentl0ned that you have a locker? A. Yes.
the locker 7 ^ Mnd °f thing do y °11 keeP inA. My books and my coat and my hat.
930a
Q. Is there a locker for every student? A. Yes.
Q. Do you have to—is there any fee involved in tie
locker? Is it free or do you have to pay something for tie
-38-
locker? A. Yes, you have to pay for it.
Q. How much? A. A dollar and a half.
Q. For a year? A. Yes.
Q. At Riverside, where you were last year, were there
any lockers? A. No.
Q. Have you ever seen any unusual banners at school!
A. Yes.
Mr. Yarborough: Unusual what?
Mr. Kennedy: Banners.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. What was unusual about the banners? A. They we®
Ku Klux Klan banners.
Q. Do you know they were Ku Klux Klan banners? ■
They had it written on it in color. White banners w
blue writing, K K K i n blue, and it’s yellow—some y *
writing and K K K on the banners, written in bine letters.
Q. What does K K K stand for? A. Ku Klux Baa
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Have you ever observed the outside of the grounds
the Louisburg School? A. Yes. ^
Q. Are you generally familiar with what we would
the campus? A. Yes.
Deposition of Christopher Neal
931a
Deposition of Christopher Neal
Q. Facilities outside of Louisburg? A. Yes.
Q. You are also generally familiar with the grounds at
Riverside School? A. Yes.
Q. Are there any athletic facilities outside at Louisburg?
A. Yes.
Q. Are there any athletic fields? A. At Louisburg?
Q. Yes. A. Yes.
Q. Does Louisburg have a baseball team? A. Yes.
Q. Does it have a football team? A. Yes.
Q. There is a track team there? A. Yes.
Q. At Riverside is there a baseball team? A. The
present year?
Q. Yes. A. No.
Q. Is there a football team? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know if Riverside has a track team? A. No,
they don’t have a track team.
Q. How many athletic fields are there at Louisburg? A.
Two.
Q. Is one of them—well, are there any lights at the
athletic fields at Louisburg? A. Yes.
Q. Are there lights at both of the athletic fields? A.
Q- Each of these athletic fields at Louisburg, is it big
enough for, say, a football or baseball game?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
% Mr. Kennedy.
4a
No.
Q- Just lights at one of them? A. Yes.
UUI'g? A. Yes.
>n over again. Have you seen
on the athletic fields at Louis-
932a
Q. While one of the fields was being used for an athletic
team was the other field ever used for practice for another
team?
Deposition of Christopher Neal
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
Mr. Kennedy: (To Witness) You can answer.
-4 1 -
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Do you understand the question? A. Could you
repeat it.
Q. Let me ask the question a different way. Can two
teams practice at the athletic fields at Louisburg one foot
ball team, say, at one athletic field and, say, the baseball
team practice on the other field? A. Yes.
Q. What kind of athletic fields do you have at Riverside!
A. Just one.
Q. One field? A. Yes.
Q. Where do the students eat lunch at Riverside? A. In
the cafeteria.
Q. Is the cafeteria located in one of the buildings? A.
Yes.
Q. How many buildings are there at Riverside, approxi
mately? A. Six.
Q. Are classes held in all of these buildings? A. Yes.
Q. Are these buildings connected by a walkway? A You
mean a sidewalk?
Q. Yes. A. No, not all of them.
—42—
Q. Are some of them connected by a sidewalk? A. Yes.
Q. Does the sidewalk, say, have a covering over it?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
933a
Deposition of Christopher Neal
Mr. Kennedy: (To Witness) You can answer it.
A. No.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Do students in classes in the buildings leave their
buildings to go to the cafeteria for lunch? A. Yes.
Q. To get from the buildings to the cafeteria, they walk
out in the weather? A. Yes.
Q. Do the students then go into a line to go through the
cafeteria?
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form.
A. Yes.
By Mr. Kennedy -.
Q. Have you ever seen the line extend outside of the
cafeteria? A. Yes.
Q. Have you ever seen the line extend outside of the
building in which the cafeteria is in?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. Yes.
By Mr. Kennedy.
Q Have you ever seen the students waiting in line—
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
934a
Deposition of Christopher Neal
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. —to get into the cafeteria when there was wet weather
outside ?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. Yes.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Where did you eat lunch at Louisburg? A. In the
cafeteria.
Q. Did you eat at the cafeteria every day? A. Yes.
Q. Do the students ever have to wait outside, outside the
building, to get into this cafeteria?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. It depends on how long the line is. Usually when the
students go down to the cafeteria the line extends past,
but it moves quickly inside.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Are the walkways between the buildings at the Lonis-
burg School covered?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. Yes.
Q. Let me ask it this way. Are there any coverings on
the walkways at Louisburg? A. Yes.
Q. Do the coverings on the walkway—where do the cov
erings on the walkway extend?
935a
Deposition of Christopher Neal
— 44—
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. From building to building, beginning at the porch of
the high school building, and reaches from the elementary
building to the cafeteria, from the high school building.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Did you have any considerations—did you make any
considerations prior to the time you went to Louisburg this
year about the reasons you wanted to go to Louisburg?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. Yes.
By Mr. Kennedy.
Q. What were your reasons? A. I was told by my
brother during my freshman year, when I came back to
Riverside, that by me dropping out it would probably
cause some other students not to go because I was the
first one that wont, and if I dropped out, they would—
probably cause some of the new students from going.
Q. Who is your brother? A. Herman.
Q. How old is he? A. Twenty.
Q- Is Re a student? A. Yes.
Q. Where? A. Yes.
— 4 5 —
Q. Where did he-— A. At North Carolina College at
Durham.
Q- Is Re still there? A. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy: No further questions.
936a
Direct Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Do yon participate in any estracnrricnlar activities at
Louisburg High School! A. No.
Q. Did yon ever go to any of the events at Louisburg
High School! A. No. Any sports events!
Q. Yes. A. No.
Q. Do yon ever go to any other events of the high school!
A. Yes, I went to some in which they have an auditorium
assembly and Beta Clnb programs.
Q. Are you a member of a Beta Clnb! A. No.
Q. Do they have a Beta Club at Riverside! A. I don’t
know.
Q. Do yon ever go to any of the choir rehearsals! A. At
Louisburg!
—46-
Q. Yes. A. No.
Q. Do yon have a band at Louisburg! A. Yes, they
have a band.
Q. Did yon have a band at Riverside! A. This year!
Q. Yes. A. No.
Q. Do they have a band at any of the Negro high schools
in the County! A. Yes. Riverside had a band last year,
but this year they don’t have a band director, and Louis-
burg doesn’t have a band director.
Q. They don’t have a band director! A. At Louisburg
and Riverside.
Q. Louisburg and Riverside don’t have a band this
year! A. The Louisburg band participated in the Christ
mas parade, but they didn’t have a director. I think some
of the older students helped the band organize for f-|f
parade. And Riverside, they didn’t have a band this yea1,
Q. Did any of the other high schools participate in t'ie
Christmas parade! A. Yes.
Deposition of Christopher Neal
937a
Deposition of Christopher Neal
—47—
Q. What high school was that? A. B. F. Person High
School.
Q. B. F. Person High School? A. Yes.
Q. Where is B. F. Person High School? A. In Frank-
linton.
Q. Did any other high school in the County participate?
A. No, not as I know of.
Q. Do any students from Riverside ever come over to
Louisburg to participate in any activity there? A. Last
night there was some students from Riverside was invited
to the Junior-Senior Prom at Louisburg.
Q. Now, these students who were invited, were they
invited by students at Louisburg? A. Yes.
Q. Were those Negro or white students? A. Negro.
Q. Some Negro students who are now attending Louis
burg invited some Negro students at Riverside? A. Yes.
Q- To the prom? A. Yes.
Q. And the prom was last night? A. Yes.
Q. Did the Riverside High School ever play any athletic
—48—
events at Louisburg High School? A. No.
Q. Did you have anybody coming to Louisburg High
School to talk about jobs? A. Not as I know of.
Q. Did you have anyone to come to Louisburg High
school to talk about school, going on to college? A. Not
ro my knowledge.
Q. Do you have a Negro teacher at Louisburg High
ciool? A. No. There was a Negro librarian at the be
ginning of the year.
Q. Did you have any white teachers at Riverside? A.
ere is a white librarian.
Q- Drd you have a white teacher? A. No.
938a
Q. Did the librarian teach any classes? A. You mean
at Riverside?
Q. At Riverside. A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Did the librarian at Louisbnrg teach any classes!
A. Not to my knowledge. She was in the elementary li
brary.
Deposition of Christopher Neal
Mr. Chambers: I have no further questions.
Cross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Now, Christopher, you had a brother named Linwood,
-49-
didn’t you? A. Yes.
Q. Now, the 1965-66 school year you attended up tee
about two days? A. Yes.
Q. And your brother Linwood was permitted to attend
the Louisburg School, too, wasn’t he? A. Yes.
Q. And he never showed up at all? A. No.
Q. Didn’t go at all? A. No, didn’t go at all.
Q. And do you know your father came and requested tie
Board of Education, as an accommodation to him, to M
you go back together to Riverside ? A. Yes.
Q. And the Board of Education let him do it? A. Y®
Q. And that was your own father? A. Yes.
Q. And that year you had free choice in the two gra e”>
the eighth and the twelfth grades ? A. The ninth grade ia
the choice. _ ,,,
Q. Ninth grade. And you would have been in the nm
grade that year? A. Yes. ^
Q. And Linwood was in the twelfth grade? ̂ A. ̂
Q. And your daddy and mother applied for Linwoo
you to go to Louisburg that year? A. Yes.
939a
Q. AnH you were assigned to Louisburg School? A.
Yes.
Q. You and Linwood together? A. Yes.
Q. You in the ninth grade and Linwood in the twelfth
grade? A. Yes.
Q. And Linwood didn’t show up and went to Riverside
the day it opened? A. Yes.
Q. Without permission from the School Board. He was
assigned to Louisburg, wasn’t he? A. Yes.
Q. And your daddy came in, in two or three days, and
requested that he be assigned back to Riverside? A. Yes.
Q. And you came to Louisburg two or three days and
was assigned back to Riverside at your daddy’s request?
A. Yes.
Q. And you went back? A. Yes.
—51—
Q. And this school year your daddy or mother last spring
or summer requested that you go to Louisburg? A. I
signed for Louisburg.
Q. You signed for it and you got it? A. Yes.
Q. Exactly what you signed for? A. Yes.
Q. And you have been in Louisburg all of this year? A
Yes.
Q. And do you remember the year before that they had
this boycott or strike at Riverside School? A. Yes.
Q. And you laid out of school for two or three days on
account of it, didn’t you? A. Yes.
Q- Do you know that your daddy was over here then
complaining about how Riverside was run? A. No, I didn’t
know it.
Q. And you are now here complaining about Louisburg,
°Vt ̂ run up there, aren’t you?
Deposition of Christopher Neal
940a
Mr. Chambers: Object to the form.
Mr. Yarborough: (To Witness) Go ahead and
answer.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. You are now here complaining about how the Louis-
-52-
burg School is run? A. I don’t understand.
Q. You are complaining about how they are running tit
Louisburg School, the people run the Louisburg School!;
A. No, I am not complaining about how they run it.
Q. Well, are you satisfied? A. Yes, I am satisfied. In
not satisfied by the way the students are treating me a«|;
calling me the racial names.
Q. Do you want to give me the names of the student*!
I want the names. A. Wilbur Moore.
Q. Wilbur Moore? A. Yes.
Q. Is he Mr. Wade Moore’s son? A. I don’t knowfi
father.
Q. All right. Go ahead. A. And Thomas Finch.
Q. Is he a student in your room? A. Yes.
Q. Is Wilbur Moore in your room? A. Yes.
Q. All right. A. Tommy Wrenn.
Q. Is he a student in your room? A. Yes.
Q. All right. A. And Paul Duke.
Q. Paul Duke. He is a student in your room? A.
Q. Only the four? A. No. There are a lot moreW
don’t know the names. ^
Q. Yon know everybody in your room, don’t you-
. All®®'1Q. You said you didn’t know their names.
Deposition of Christopher Neal
941a
they are in my room. They are some of them that call me
names. Some that are not in my room I don’t know their
names.
Q. And who is yonr room teacher? A. Mr. Morgan,
Eric Morgan.
Q. Now, you are saying—about the athletic field up at
Louisburg, I will ask you if you don’t know that the
parents of students up there built those athletic fields ?
Mr. Chambers: I f he knows.
A. Did the parents build them?
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Did the parents build the athletic fields? A. No, I
didn’t know it.
—54—
Q. Has your daddy ever sent any money to pay for the
athletic fields? A. No.
Q. He’s never sent a nickel to pay any for it? A. Yes,
he’s give me money to pay my classroom dues.
Q- I’m talking about the athletic field? A. No, not as I
know of.
Q. You do know that the year before you went to Louis-
burg School for two or three days that your daddy, or your
mother one, did keep you out of Riverside School during
several days during the boycott? A. Yes.
Q- They kept you out of school? A. Yes.
Q- And that boycott was a complaint about how River
side School was run? A. I don’t know.
Q. Why were you boycotting? A. I won’t boycotting.
My parents were.
Q- Your parents were boycotting Riverside School that
y^r? A. Yes.
Deposition of Christopher Neal
942a
Q. You don’t know why they were doing it? A. No.
Q. Do you know that Mr. Charles McLean, the State field
- 55-
secretary of the N A A C P came down here ? A. Yes.
Q. And settled the boycott ? A. Yes.
Q. And you know it was settled, and you went back to
this school, didn’t you? A. Yes.
Q. Did you know that in 1965-66, when you went to
Louisburg School, you say, for two or three days, about
two days, that your daddy came to this office, in this build
ing, and told Mr. Smith that he didn’t think you were
treated any worse at Louisburg School than a white boy
would have been treated if he had went to Riverside?
Mr. Chambers: Objection. If the witness knows.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. That is what I am asking him. I f he knows. A. Be-
peat the question.
Q. Do you know that your daddy came to Mr. Smith here
in this building, Superintendent of Schools, and requested
—and stated that he did not think you were treated any
worse at the Louisburg School than a white b o y would
have been treated at Riverside—do you know that? A.
No. I know that he came up here requesting that I - '
— 56-
back to Riverside.
Q. Do you know that he said that when he came here.
A. No, I don’t know that he said that.
Q. Your daddy’s name is Mr. Willie Neal? A. Yes.
Q. And that same year your brother Herman Neal ap
plied for Louisburg College, didn’t he ? A. Yes.
Q. And he was accepted? A. No.
Deposition of Christopher Neal
943a
Q. He could have gone? A. No. He wasn’t accepted.
Q. You say he was not accepted? How do you know
that? A. Because he got a blank saying he wasn’t ac
cepted.
Q. You mean your brother Herman Neal was not ac
cepted at Louisburg College? A. Yes. He was not ac
cepted.
Q. Did you see the blank? A. Yes.
Q. I will ask you if you don’t know that he applied for
and paid a ten dollar application fee and never did any
thing else about it? A. After he wasn’t accepted, he sent
an application in for North Carolina College at Durham.
Q. And that is just as true as everything else you are
—57—
saying; he was not accepted at Louisburg College; you say
he was rejected? A. Yes.
Q. And that is just as true as everything else you are
saying? A. Yes.
Q. And do you have any other brothers that ever applied
to Louisburg College? A. No.
Q. That is the only one? A. Yes.
Q- Did you know your father complained because he paid
a ten dollar application fee and the College rules wouldn’t
let them pay it back when he didn’t complete his applica
tion form? A. No, I didn’t know he objected.
Mr. Chambers: Object to the form.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Low, when did you first talk to Mr. Kennedy about
oemg a witness here? A. When did I first talk to him?
M Yes. A. It was Tuesday night.
4- Tuesday night? A. Yes.
Deposition of Christopher Neal
944a
Q. And the next day yon say you found a note or pin.
- 58-
ture in your locker? Is that right? A. Yes.
Q. Where did you talk to Mr. Kennedy on Tuesday
night? A. At the home of Mr. Otis Gill.
Q. Mr. Otis Gill? A. Yes.
Q. Who told you to come over, to meet him at Mr. Gil
home ? Who told you to come over to meet him at Mi,
Gill’s house? A. Reverend Dunston.
Q. Reverend Dunston? A. He told my father.
Q. Who else was there? A. You want the names!
Q. Yes. A. Bertha Ingram.
Q. Is she a witness here this morning? A. Yes.
Q. Go ahead. A. Paul Ingram.
Q. Who else? A. Charles Gill. That is Mr. Otis Gil
son. And Ruffin Gill. That is Mr. Otis Gill’s son. And
Mr. Otis Gill’s two young children. I don’t know their
names. And Mildred Brawley.
— 59-
Q. Who is that? A. That is Mr. Willie Brawley’s daugh
ter.
Q. Where does she go to school? A. She goes to Louis-
burg.
Q. All right. A. And Martha Gill.
Q. Who is that? A. That is Mr. Otis Gill’s daughter.̂
Q. All right. Anybody else? A. Did I give you-®12'
abeth Strickland. _ ,
Q. All right. Who is that? A. That is Mr. Linwoo
Strickland’s daughter.
Q. All right. Who else was there? A. And I was t ere
Q. And Mr. Kennedy? A. Yes.
Q. And who else? A. Reverend Dunston. My father,
Deposition of Christopher Neal
945a
Q. Your father, Willie Neal? A. Yes. And Mr. Ruffin
Neal and Mr. Otis Gill and his wife, and Mrs. Strickland.
Q. Mrs. Linwood Strickland? A. Yes.
Q. What did Reverend Dunston have to do with all that?
Mr. Chambers: Objection.
Mr. Kennedy: Objection.
—60—
Mr. Yarborough: I am asking him if he knows.
A. No, I don’t.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. What did he say there? A. He didn’t say anything
as far as I know. He was taking notes.
Q. Taking notes? A. Yes.
Q. Did he give you a copy of the notes? A. No.
Q. And that was Tuesday night? A. Yes.
Q. April the 25th, 1967 f Look at the calendar and see.
A. No, sir—yes, the 25th.
Q-April 25, 1967? A. Yes.
Q.That was Tuesday of this week, and today is Satur
day—that’s right, isn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. And when did you get word to come there ? A. I got
^ niy mother got word Tuesday afternoon.
Q. And who carried you out there? A. My father.
V- And he stayed there, too? A. Yes.
Q- And when did they tell you to come up here and be
W Tuesday night.
Q- That same night? A. Yes.
in l f ^ en 0n Wednesday you found a note or picture in y°ur locker? A. Yes.
Deposition of Christopher Neal
946a
Q. Unlocked locker? A. My locker, but I didn’t have the
lock on it. The locker was shut.
Q. It wasn’t locked, you said? A. No.
Q. You testified awhile ago it wasn’t locked? A. No, it
wasn’t locked.
Q. And what did you do with the picture or note, or
whatever it was? A. Showed it to my friends and then I
kept it.
Q. And then what did you do with it then? A. I put it
in my wallet.
Q. What friends did you show it to? A. Showed it to
Martha, Patricia, Elizabeth, Larry—
Q. Larry who? A. Larry Davis. And Bertha.
Q. And you took that picture that was offered in evi
dence awhile ago, you said you found in your locker, and
showed that to some girl students? A. Yes.
—62-
Q. Is that right? A. Yes.
Q. You showed it to sixteen year old girls? A. No, I
showed it to the Negro girls, and they are in the eleventh
or twelfth grade.
Q. Sixteen or seventeen or eighteen year old girls, is
that right? A. Yes.
Q. You took it around and showed it to them? A. Yes,
I showed it to them.
Q. You showed it to them? A. Yes.
Q. And how did Mr. Kennedy get it? A. I showed it to
him this morning.
Q. That the first time you had shown it to him? A.
Yes.
Q. Did he ask you for it or did you volunteer? A. Be
asked me for it.
Q. Do you know how he knew you had it? A. No.
Deposition of Christopher Neal
947a
Q. And why did you bring it with you over here this
morning? A. I had planned to show it to Mr. Kennedy.
Q. And that is the reason you brought it? A. Yes.
—63—
Q. But he asked you for it before you showed it to him?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you show it to Mr. Fox? A. No.
Q. Mr. Morgan? A. No.
Q. Both of those are men, aren’t they? A. Yes.
Q. What time of day did you find it? A. It was during
the second period, the third period break. It’s a break be
tween the second and third period.
Q. That was in the morning then? A. Yes.
Q. You kept it over there all day that day? A. Yes.
Q. You saw Mr. Morgan that day, didn’t you? A. No.
Q. And you did not tell him about it or show it to him?
A. No.
Q. Didn’t you—I will withdraw the question. You did
not show it to Mr. Fox? A. Yes.
—64—
Q. There are other men teachers there, aren’t there? A.
Yes.
Q. Mr. Bolton and Mr. Wilson and some others? A.
Yes.
Q. Are there any other men teachers there? A. Some
in the high school department.
Q- You are in the high school department? A. Yes.
Q. And who are they? A. The men teachers?
Q. Except those I named. A. Those are the ones you
named off.
Q- You said there are lights at the athletic fields at the
Bomsburg School? A. Lights on the football field.
Q- Do you know that the parents of the children who
Deposition of Christopher Neal
948a
go to that school bought those lights and paid for them
themselves? A. No, I don’t know that.
Q. You never brought any money from your daddy to
help pay for the lights, did you? A. No.
Q. And you say there is no band at Riverside this year?
A. No.
Q. They did have one while you were there, didn’t they?
—6 5 -
A. Yes.
Q. And had one last year? A. Yes.
Q. And last school year, in the Christmas parade, the
Riverside band marched in it? A. Yes. You mean—
Q. Not this past year, Christmas, the last school year?
A. Yes.
Q. They marched in it right down Main Street? A. Yes.
Q. Were you in it? A. No.
Q. Did you play in the band? A. No.
Q. And they don’t have a band director this year, do
they? A. No.
Q. And Louisburg doesn’t have a band director this
year? A. No.
Q. And the band is run by some of the students them
selves? A. Yes.
Q. They got together and formed the band at the Louis-
—66-
burg School? A. Yes.
Q. You didn’t go out for the band up there, did you? A.
No.
Q. Both of them had it last school year, both had bands?
A. Yes.
Q. And you knew Mrs. Gertie Jones, didn’t you? A.
Yes.
Q. She taught you at Riverside, didn’t she? A. Yes.
Deposition of Christopher Neal
949a
Q. She was teaching you while you were there? A. Yes.
Q. Taught one of the grades? A. Yes. Seventh grade.
Q. But you were not in her section? A. Yes.
Q. But you knew her? A. Yes.
Q. And knew she was working at the Louisburg School
this year? A. Yes.
Q. Until she got sick? A. Yes.
Q. You knew she has been sick and hadn’t been there
—67—
since? A. Yes.
Q. And you always got along well with her in the deal
ings you had with her, with Mrs. Gertie Jones, at River
side? A. Yes.
Q. And got along with her all right so long as she was
there at Louisburg School? A. Yes.
Q. Did you go to the Junior-Senior Prom last night?
A. No. '
Q. You could have gone, couldn’t you? A. No.
Q. What are you? Aren’t you a junior? A. No.
Q. What grade are you in? A. Tenth grade.
Q. Tenth grade. And you applied to go back to Louis
burg School for the next year? A. Yes.
Q. And you, of course, since you have been in high school,
have been in both schools since you’ve been in high school?
A. Yes.
Q. Riverside and Louisburg? A. Yes.
—68—
bl. And did you fill out your free choice form this year,
or your mother and father? A. My mother.
Q- Your mother signed it? A. Yes.
^Q. And she asked that you go back to Louisburg? A.
Q- And you expect to go back next year? A. Yes.
Deposition of Christopher Neal
950a
Q. Do you have any younger brothers and sisters in
school? A. No.
Q. You are the youngest child? A. Yes.
Q. Did Linwood graduate at Riverside? A. Yes.
Q. How many other conferences have you had with Mr.
Kennedy, except the one at Mr. Otis Gill’s house? A. At
my home.
Q. When was that? A. I don’t remember.
Q. How long ago? A. It was—I think it was Monday
night. I ’m not sure.
Q. Of this week? A. Yes.
- 6 9 -
Q. And Mr. Kennedy is a government lawyer, isn’t he?
A. Yes.
Q. Why did he come to your home, do you know? A.
Do I know why he came ?
Q. That’s right. A. He came there and asked me ques
tions.
Q. Did he tell you why he picked you out to come to and
to ask questions? A. No.
Q. Is that the first time you ever saw him? A. No.
Q. Wkere did you see him before? A. I saw him last
year, last summer, at the Court in Raleigh and he came to
my house.
Q. Then, too? A. No, that was before the Court.
Q. He came to your house last summer? A. Yes.
Q. And he came here Monday of this week? A. Yes.
Q. To your house. Were you expecting him to come
Monday night? A. No.
Q. Just come to your door, the first time you knew he
— 70— -
was coming? A. I didn’t know he was coming when he
came to my door Monday night.
Deposition of Christopher Neal
951a
Deposition of Christopher Neal
Q. And lie came to Mr. Otis Gill’s on Wednesday night
of this week? A. Tuesday night.
Q. Tuesday night. Who are your other teachers at
Louisburg this year? A. That I take classes under?
Q. That teach you, yes. A. Mrs. Williamson, and Mr.
Bolton, Mr. Alford. I take a study under Mr. Bolton.
Q. What? A. Study.
Q. Study? A. Study hall. And English under Mrs.
Adams.
Q. Mrs. Adams? A. Yes. And biology under Mr. Hob-
good.
Q. Do you know Mr. Fox—do you? A. Yes. Do I know
him?
Q. Yes. A. Yes.
Q. He is the principal of the school? A. Yes.
Q- You have known Mr. Fox since you first went up
A1 . —71—
there this year? A. Yes.
Q. You knew he was the principal; he was the principal
when you went there for a few days in 1965-66, wasn’t he?
A. Yes.
Q. And you have never been to him and complained to
him, have you? A. Yes.
Q. This year? A. Yes.
Q- When did you go? A. It was the beginning of the
year.
Q- The first day, or how many days after? A. No. This
was—I think it was in October. It was the first—the day
the photographer came to take the class pictures, individual
Pictures.
Q- He took your picture, didn’t he? A. Yes.
Q- Is it in the annual? A. No, I haven’t seen the an
nual.
952a
Q. You expect to get one if you pay for it, don’t you?
A. Yes.
Q. At both Louisburg School and Riverside School you
have to pay for your annual, don’t you? A. Have to pay
- 7 2 -
for an annual?
Q. Have to pay for an annual if you get one? A. Yes.
Q. Both schools? A. Yes.
Q. And you say you went to Mr. Fox in October. Where
did you go to see him? A. In his office.
Q. Did you see him? A. Yes.
Q. He was nice and polite to you, wasn’t he? A. Yes.
Q. He’s always treated you all right, hasn’t he? A. Yes.
Q. All of your teachers have treated you all right,
haven’t they? A. Yes.
Q. Every single one? A. Yes.
Q. And you get along with all of them? A. Yes.
Q. And you didn’t go out for any extracurricular activi
ties, such as baseball, football, or basketball? A. No.
—73-
Q. Or for the choir or for the band? A. No.
Q. And you didn’t join the Beta Club? A. No.
Q. And your complaints here then are against students
in your own classroom?
Mr. Kennedy: Objection.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Isn’t it? A. Those are the ones that are calling me
names.
Q. And they are boys that live right in the Louisburg
Q. You are here complaining they are in your own class
room? A. Yes. In my own classroom.
Deposition of Christopher Neal
953a
neighborhood, aren’t they? A. I don’t know where any of
them live.
Q. You don’t know where any of them live? A. No.
Q. Have you ever gone to a basketball game up there?
A. No.
Q. How about a football game? A. No.
Q. Or baseball game? A. No.
Q. The students have to pay to get into the games up at
Louisburg, don’t they, to get in to see them? A. I don’t
- 7 4 -
know.
Q. You never went there to find out, never asked? A.
No, I never asked.
Q. What did you go to see Mr. Fox about? A. Oh, I was
hit on the shoulder. He told us at the beginning of the
year if anything happens to report it.
Q. To report it to whom? A. To him. And this boy
had been—
Q. What boy was that? A. This Tommy Wrenn had
been picking at me all the year and I tried to ignore it,
until—
Q. You said all the year now? A. During the whole
time I was up there, yes, and still is.
Q. I thought you said that was in October. School hadn’t
been in session except about a month then, had it? A.
Yes.
Q- Of course, you went to Mr. Fox? A. Yes.
Q- What did he do, if anything, if you know? A. He
called him to the office.
Q- Tommy Wrenn? A. Yes.
—75—
Q. And Tommy Wrenn is what—about your age? A.
Yes.
Deposition of Christopher Neal
954a
Q. About your same size! A. Yes.
Q. And these other boys are all about your age, aren’t
they! A. No, not that I know of. Wilbur Moore—he’s not
my age.
Q. He is older? A. Yes.
Q.And a good deal taller? A. Yes.
Q. He is a star basketball player, isn’t he? A. Yes.
Q. You know that. But the other boys are about your
size and age? A. Tommie Finch is not. He is taller than
I am. I don’t know his age. And I don’t know how old Paul
Duke is.
Q. Where did you see all of these banners, the white
banners with blue letters with K K K o n them? A. In the
lockers.
Q. You say they were banners. What do you mean by
banners? How big were they? A. They are shaped like
high school flags, like.
— 76—■
Q. I ’m talking about how big. Can you give me an idea
in inches? A. Just a little longer than the sign above the
calendar there, and rectangular shaped.
Q. You have seen them in your locker? A. No, I have
seen them in some of the boys’ lockers.
Q. They were their signs, not in your locker, but in their
lockers, weren’t they? A. Yes.
Q. You looked in their lockers and could see them? A.
1 could see them. They had their lockers open.
Q. And you looked in there, didn’t you? A. Just looked
into the locker as I was walking past.
Q. You looked that way and saw them; you had to do it
if you saw them, didn’t you? A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Otis Gill is president of the Franklin County
N A A C P, isn’t he? A. Yes.
Deposition of Christopher Neal
955a
Q. You know that? A. Yes.
Q. Is your father a member of it? A. Yes.
Mr. Chambers: We object to that.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Is he an officer in it?
Mr. Chambers: Object to that.
—77—
Mr. Yarborough: I am asking if he knows.
Mr. Chambers: No, the Court has already said
that you don’t inquire into this type of thing, in the
ease of N A A C P vs. Alabama.
Mr. Yarborough: I was asking him if he knew
his father was an officer in it. If you all don’t want
it, it is all right with me. I withdraw that last ques
tion.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Have you ever talked to Mr. Gill about this case?
A. No.
Q. Has he ever been to your house and talked to any
body m your presence about it? A. No.
Q. Now, Christopher, you are going to the exact school
mat you wanted to go to ? A. Yes.
Q-Last year your daddy had asked that you be sent to?
1 I go to the school that he asked me to be sent to ?
N- He asked the Board of Education to send you last
Loffisb ̂ ̂ ^on’t know if he asked. I signed to go to
Q. And he came over here and signed you back to River-
ude? A. Yes.
Deposition of Christopher Neal
956a
- 7 8 -
Q. And so last year you went to the school your daddy
asked you to be sent to? A. Yes.
Q. And this year you are going to the one you wanted
to go to? A. Yes.
Q. And you are going next year to the same school? A.
Yes.
Q. And you had the choice of any school in the County,
didn’t you? A. Yes.
Q. And you saw that it had all the schools on it? A.
Yes.
Q. Now, you get along with Mr. Fox and you get along
with all of your teachers? A. Yes.
Q. And you like your teachers? A. Yes.
Q. They have all been nice to you up at Louisburg
School? A. Yes.
Mr. Yarborough: Thank you, Christopher. That’s
all.
—79-
Deposition of Christopher Neal
jRedirect Examination by Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Are you appearing here today under subpoena? A.
Yes.
Q. You had seen me last year, both at your house and
at Raleigh? A. Yes.
Q. For the better part of three days in Raleigh? A.
Yes.
Q. Were you under subpoena at the time you were w
Raleigh last summer ? A. Yes.
Q. Were you going to be a witness, did you think? A.
Yes.
I
957a
Q. When I was at your house last summer, were there
other people present? A. Yes.
Q. Were your parents present? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know who made the drawing that you found
in your locker a couple of days ago? A. No.
Mr. Kennedy: No further questions.
Redirect Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Yarborough asked you about your father coming
- 8 0 -
up here to the Board last year to ask that you and your
brother be sent back to Riverside. A. Yes.
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form. Of
course, we didn’t ask about his brother. Said he
never did go up there.
Mr. Chambers: I will rephrase the question.
By Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Yarborough asked you about your father request
ing that you be sent back to Riverside from Louisburg last
year? A. Yes.
Q- And that the Board approve your brother remaining
at Riverside. A. Yes.
Q- Rather than being transferred as requested? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know why your father asked that you be sent
back to Riverside? A. Yes. I told him how I was treated.
Q. And how were you treated? A. I was called names
and paper was thrown at me, small spit balls, and so
forth.
Q. And was this why your father requested that you be
sent back to Riverside ? A. Yes. I had asked him.
Deposition of Christopher Neal
958a
- 8 1 -
Q. Mrs. Gertie Jones is the Negro teacher or Negro li
brarian you indicated was at Louisburg for a while— A.
Yes.
Q. This year. What does she do at Riverside? A. She
was a teacher in the seventh grade.
Q. In the seventh grade ? A. Yes.
Q. And I think you stated that she was librarian at
Louisburg? A. Yes.
Q. She didn’t teach anything? A. No.
Mr. Chambers: I have no further questions.
Becross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Now, Christopher, Linwood the year before that
never appeared at Louisburg School at all? A. No.
Q. The day school opened he just went on to Riverside?
A. Yes.
Q. Even though he wasn’t assigned there? A. Yes.
Q. And did you go up there a few days? A. Yes.
Q. And you say you told your father about your treat
ment? A. Yes.
—82-
Q. And you went back to Riverside last year? A. Yes.
Q. You chose Louisburg this year? A. Yes.
Q. And it is pretty much the same group in your grade
this year in the tenth grade that was in the eighth grade
year before last? A. Ninth.
Q. Ninth grade. Pretty much the same group of hoys
and girls? A. Yes.
Q. Talking about teachers, I will ask you if there is Mrs.
Atchison over at Riverside this year? A. I don’t know.
I don’t know all the teachers.
Deposition of Christopher Neal
959a
Q. I will ask you this: if there isn’t a white lady, Mrs.
Atchison, that teachers English ?
Mr. Kennedy: If you know.
A. No, I don’t know.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. You don’t know very much about the faculty, cer
tainly, at Kiverside this year! Do you? A. No, not at
Riverside.
Q. You testified awhile ago there wasn’t but one over
there in the library. A. Yes. She is the only one.
—83—
Q. You don’t know Mrs. Atchison, you don’t know that
she is a white lady at Kiverside? A. No.
Q. What was her name, what is the name of the librarian
at Riverside? A. I don’t know her.
Air. Yarborough: That’s all.
(Witness excused)
Deposition of Paul C. Engrarn
Paul C. E ngram being first duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows:
Direct Examination by Mr. Kennedy:
Q- State your name, age, and address, please. A. Paul
Engram- Fifteen years of age. Post Office Box 145.
Q- Wliat town? A. Louisburg, North Carolina.
Ati. Yarborough: How old did you say he is?
A. Fifteen.
960a
Deposition of Paul C. Eng ram
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. For the record, what is your race? A. Negro.
Q Where do you go to school and what grade are you in?
- 8 4 -
A. I go to Louisburg High School. I am in the ninth
grade.
Q. Where did you go to school last year? A. Riverside.
I was in the eighth.
Q. While at Riverside, have you become aware of any
unusual signs or notes? A. You mean while I was attend
ing Riverside.
Q. Correction. That should have been Louisburg. A.
Oh, yes. You mean—
Q. Tell us about that, please. A. Well, there were a lot
of boys wears these emblems that have United Klans of
America wrote on it, and letters.
Q. Are the words spelled out? A. Yes. United Klans
of America. And in some of—some lockers I have seen
such things as Klan flags.
Q. What does a Klan flag look like? A. It’s sort of
triangular shaped with white and blue and gold letters.
And it has on one end—I think it has an emblem, it has
United Klans of America, and then written along the end
it has something about Ku Klux Klan of K K K, or some
thing like that.
Q. Have you seen any unusual writings? A. Well, 1
saw this picture where a boy—where Christopher Neal ie
—85-
ceived in his locker, and there is a letter where Charles Gill
received. I didn’t really read it complete, but it was ter
rible.
Q. Have you seen any other notes or anything else writ
ten down at the school that is unusual? A. Well, in my
961a
study hall there s just—we had someone drew this picture
of this colored lady and they put on it—she was—had a
stomach big down here, and had writing above it.
Q. What was the writing? A. It said, “I went all the
way with L B J.”
Q. Are you engaged in any extracurricular activities at
school? A. I run track. That is one.
Q. Are you on the track team now? A. Yes.
Q. Do you ever play any other sports? A. No. That is
the only extracurricular activity, but I have this physical
education class and in that we play a lot of sports and
things.
Q. Anything unusual happen on the track team?
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form.
A. In the physical education class, when they were out to
the football field cleaning up after a football game, and I
was walking along the end of it and some boys—at least, I
. — 86—
think it was just one boy—started throwing rocks at me,
and he just continued throwing until one of them hit me on
the leg and until the teacher came in and I reported it.
Q. Who was the teacher? A. Mr. Bolton.
Q. What did he do? A. The next day he said he was
going to check into it, and the next day he called all of us
together in the gym and I found out who the boy was who
iad done this, and he told the boy he’d better not see or
ear of anything like this any more, or do, he would be
punished.
Q. Are you assigned to a particular seat in a classroom ?
A. Well, no, not particularly. But when we first started
going to class, every one just sit in a seat and that is the
seat that we have had all year.
Deposition of Paul G. Engrain
962a
Q. Are there other Negro children who sit around you!
A. Well, in the classes—in some of my classes. I take one
subject by myself, but in those where I do take with other
Negro students, all of them are sitting together, mostly.
All of us.
Q. Most of the other students—what is the race of most
of the other students! A. White.
—87-
Q. Have you had occasion to observe the books that the
other white students have? A. Yes.
Q. Anything unusual about those books?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
Mr. Kennedy: (To witness) Answer it.
A. Beg your pardon.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Did you understand the question? A. Yes. You mean
the regular books where they are issued to us?
Q. Any of the books. A. Well, the books that they issue
to us are all the same, but I was in my science class one
day and one boy had his notebook, you know. On the back
he had this writing, “Never integrate. We don’t want any
black Niggers at our school.”
Q. How did you happen to see that? A. Well, he wrote
it on there and held it up, and he was writing and he just
held it up where I would be sure to see it if I ever turn my
head that way.
Q. Have you ever played any baseball at Louisburg?
A. No, not this year.
Q. Did you ever play any football? A. Yes, we played
a little, in physical education class when I play touch foot
ball.
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
963a
Q. Play any basketball? A. Yes.
— 88—
Q. Play games in basketball, or scrimmage, or what?
A. We just have regular games, you know. Choose up
teams and play against each other.
Q. Where do you play the basketball in Louisburg? A.
In the gym.
Q. At Louisburg where are—are there meetings of the
student body? A. Yes.
Q. Held? A. There are several.
Q. Where are the meetings of the student body held?
A. You mean in the entire student body?
Q. Well, any part of the student body or the whole stu
dent body. A. It’s held in the auditorium.
Q. Is the auditorium in the same building or a different
building from the gymnasium at Louisburg? A. It is a
separate building. We have both a gym and an auditorium.
Q. You play athletics at Riverside last year? A. No, I
wasn’t eligible. You aren’t allowed until you get in the
ninth grade.
Q. Is there a gymnasium at Riverside? A. Yes, there
is a gym.
—89—
Q. Is there an auditorium at Riverside? A. No. They
use the gym as an auditorium.
Q. Have you had occasion, while at Riverside, to use the
bathrooms? A. Yes.
Q. Men’s rooms? A. Yes.
Q- Do the men’s rooms operate all right? A. You mean
at Riverside ?
Q- Yes. A. Well, they are—some of them are faulty.
At least last year when I was there they were faulty, be
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
964a
cause the one in the gymnasium was always overflowing
and would fill most of the entire room up with water.
Q. What was overflowing, sir? A. The commodes . . .
and we have to—we volunteered. At least the people in
my room. That was the only eighth grade in the gym. So
we volunteered to go in and help sweep it up because all
the janitors were really kept busy, and if we didn’t volun
teer, it would have washed out—out into the hall.
Q. How many janitors were there at Riverside? A. Two
men, I think, and one lady.
—90-
Q. While you were a student at Riverside were there
any health facilities, or facilities for health care, at River
side? A. Well, they do have a sick room where if you get
ill or anything, you can go lay down, hut that is all.
Q. Is there anybody in attendance at the sick room? A.
No.
Q. A nurse? A. No.
Q. Is there a nurse, or somebody, ever visit the school?
A. Not as I remember. One lady coming over from the
health department, but she was just there to check on your
eyes, is all.
Q. Were there any shots given at the school?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Did you personally receive any medical treatment at
the school? A. At the school?
Q. At Riverside? A. No, I haven’t.
Q. Do you know any other students who ever received
any medical treatment at the school? A. You mean on the
premises?
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
965a
Q. Well, involved in the school. A. Well, yes. A couple
—91—
of years ago—I guess it was two or three, something like
that—these termites got loose in one of—this agricultural
building, and they started stinging the students, and I think
some of them had to get shots for that.
Q. Do you know the names of the athletic teams that
Louisburg plays in baseball and basketball? A. Yes. They
play—
Q. That’s all right. Just answer the question. A. Yes.
Q. Are you generally familiar with the names of the
athletic teams that Riverside plays? A. Yes.
Q. To your knowledge does Louisburg High School play
any schools where most of the students are Negroes?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. As far as—
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q- Go ahead. A. As far as I know they don’t.
Q. Do you know whether the teams that Riverside plays
are white or Negro? A. They are Negro. In fact, I have
never seen a white person on none of the teams they play.
Q. Do you know whether Louisburg has ever played
Riverside? A. Not to my knowledge.
—!92—
H Do you know whether Louisburg has ever played
ethsemane ? A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Whether Louisburg has ever played Youngsville Ele
mentary? A. No. Not as I know of.
Q- Do you know whether Louisburg has ever played
Perry’s? A. No, not as I know of.
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
966a
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
Mr. Kennedy: No further questions.
Direct Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Do you participate in any other activity at Louisburg
besides track? A. No, not extracurricular.
Q. Has your track season begun at Louisburg? A. Yes.
It is almost completed.
Q. Mr. Kennedy asked you about Louisburg’s competi
tion with any predominantly or all Negro school in basket
ball and baseball. Has Louisburg competed in track with
any Negro school? A. No. I can say that I have never
seen any. I have been at every track meet this year.
Q. You are one of the plaintiffs in this lawsuit, are you
not? A. Yes.
—93—
Q. Did you make application in 1965 for transfer to one
of the predominantly white schools? A. Yes.
Q. Was your application accepted? A. No.
Q. You were not in one of the grades then effected by
the plan? A. That’s correct.
Q. They had grades 1, 2, 9, and 12? A. That’s correct.
Q. What grade were you in then? A. Eighth.
Q. And they rejected your application? A. That’s cor
rect.
Q.Do you have separate buildings at Riverside for the
high school and elementary departments? A. Yes.
Q. Do you have a separate building for the gymnasium
or gymnatorium? A. No. The gym is at the top of the
building that the gym is in, is the gymnasium, and at the
bottom or the basement is classrooms.
Q. Are these elementary classrooms or high school? A.
Elementary.
967a
Q. And the gym is used primarily by the elementary or
—9 4—
the high school? A. Primarily by the high school.
Q. Are the high school classes in a separate building at
Riverside? A. You mean from the elementary?
Q. From the elementary. A. Yes.
Q. And also from these classes in the gymnasium? A.
Well, I guess—they do have physical education there, but
that is the only class, I think, up to last year they had
music there, too, but I think they cut that out this year.
Q. Do you have a separate building for agriculture at
Riverside? A. No. There are two classrooms, but the
agricultural buildings is on the same end with these two
classes.
Q. Are these high school or elementary classes in these
buildings ? A. Elementary.
Q. Is there a separate building for the cafeteria? A.
Yes.
Q. Do all students use the cafeteria, the elementary and
high school students? A. All students.
Q. Is there a street or path, a cement path, that con-
—95—
nccts these various buildings at Riverside? A. Well, there
are cement paths that connect some of them, but not all of
them.
Q- Is there an overhead cover for all the paths connect
ing these buildings ? A. No.
Q. Where is the library at Riverside? A. Well, that is
located in the high school department.
Q- Where is the library for the elementary department?
A. That is the same one as the high school.
Deposition of Paul C. Eng ram
Q. They use the same one ? A. Yes.
Q. Where is that located? A. That is located in the
high school department.
Q. Where all the high school classes are taught? A.
Yes.
Q. Do you have a track field at Riverside? A. No.
Q. Do you have a baseball field at Riverside? A. Well,
they have one, but that is also—they play baseball and foot
ball out there. The same thing. It is just one field.
Q. Is it an enclosed stadium? A. No.
Q. Are there any lights there? A. No.
- 9 6 -
Q. For night games? A. None.
Q. The agricultural building—is that a cement or wooden
structure? A. That’s wood.
Q. At Louisburg are the high school and elementary
schools in the same building? A. No, they are not.
Q. Is the gymnasium in the same building with the high
school? A. No. That is separate. It is by itself. There is
nothing there but that.
Q. How many buildings do you have at Louisburg in use
for school studies in the elementary and high school? A.
Well, only one, and we both use the cafeteria, but other
than that, the elementary have their own building and the
high school have their own.
Q. Where is the library in the Louisburg High School!
A. Well, the high school library is in the high school build
ing and the elementary library is there in the elementary
building.
Q. Is there another building there besides the high school
and the elementary school building and the gymnasium!
A. Yes. There is the auditorium.
968a
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
— 97—
Q. Do the elementary students and the high school stu
dents use the same auditorium? A. Yes.
Q. Is there a cement walk or passageway connecting the
buildings at Louisburg High School? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is there a cover over that walk? A. Yes, there’s
covers over all the walks.
Q. Are all the walks cemented? A. Yes.
Q. What kind of facilities did you have in the gymnasium
at Riverside? A. Well, they had the gym, and that is
about all that I know of, except there’s nothing else there
to my knowledge.
Q. What kind of facilities do you have at Louisburg in
the gymnasium? A. Well, we have—there’s this room
where they kept medical supplies, you know, for the athletic
programs, and then in the dressing room we have a weight
machine, and we also have some other kind of machine in
the dressing room, also. I ’m not sure whether it is a drier
or washing machine, or something like that.
Q- Do you have shower facilities in the Louisburg gym-
__ gg__
nasinm? A. Yes.
Q. Both boys and girls? A. Yes, both boys and girls
have complete shower facilities.
Q. Do you have a swimming pool at Louisburg— A. No.
Q. High School? A. No.
Q. Does Louisburg High School offer tennis? A. They
on’t offer it as a course, but we have a tennis court there
w ere you know, you can go and play tennis if you like.
h!- Is that at the school? A. Yes.
Q. Do you have a tennis court at Riverside? A No
they do not. ’
970a
Q. Do you have track at Riverside! A. No, they don’t.
Q. Do you have track in any of the Negro schools here
in the County? A. Not to my knowledge we don’t.
Q. The tennis court, you indicated, was available for the
students. Is that on the school property? A. Yes.
- 9 9 -
Q. And is used by the students at Louisburg High School?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you in the Beta Club at Louisburg High School?
A. No, I am not.
Q. Did you have a Beta Club at Riverside? A. Not to
my knowledge they don’t.
Q. But you do have one at Louisburg? A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any other kind of organization at Louis
burg High School? A. Well, we have the Quill and Scroll
and we have the Monogram Club, also.
Q. You are saying the Quill and Scroll? A. Yes.
Q. Do you have that at Riverside? A. Not to my knowl
edge.
Q. What is the Quill and Scroll? A. Well, it has—I’m
not sure, but it has something to do with literary writing,
or something like that.
Q. How many brothers and sisters do you have? A. I
have five sisters and one brother.
Q. Are they all in school? A. No, just one. I have a
sister in school. She is a senior this year.
— 100—
Q. Where does she go! A. She goes to Louisburg
High.
Q. Is she one of the plaintiffs in this lawsuit? A. i eS'
Q. What is her name? A. Bertha.
Q. Bertha Engram? A. Yes.
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
971a
Q. Did she apply for a transfer in 1965? A. Yes she
did.
Q. Was her application accepted or rejected? A. It was
rejected.
Q. She was not in one of the four grades? A. That’s
correct.
Q. Both you and your sister reapplied for transfer or
assignment to Louisburg for next school year? A. I did,
but my sister didn’t. This is her last year.
Q. She finishes this year?
Cross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. You said something about a Quill and Scroll at Louis
burg. A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever go to the principal at Eiverside and
— 101—
asJj somebody to organize one over there? A. No, I didn’t.
I wasn’t in the high school department.
Q. Did you object to them having one at Louisburg?
Mr. Chambers: Objection.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q- Go ahead. What was your answer? A. No, I don’t
object.
Q. And do you know that things like Quill and Scroll are
organized by the initiative of the teachers?
Mr. Chambers: Do you know? I f you know.
A' No> 1 don’t know that.
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
972a
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. And you know Mr. Bolton—he is your track coach,
isn’t he? A. Yes, he is.
Q. And you are running on the track team? A. Yes.
Q. You went out for it and got it, is that right? A. Beg
your pardon.
Q. You went out for the track team and got on the track
team—is that right? A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. Bolton is the coach of the football team, too?
A. Yes, he is.
Q. Did you know that the athletic field and track and all
— 102—
were built by individual citizens, without expense to the
Board of Education, at Louisburg School? A. I didn’t
know that.
Q. Well, have you got any fault to find with them having
a football field and a track at Louisburg?
Mr. Chambers: Objection.
A. No, I have no objection, but I am glad they’ve got it
there.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. You are glad they’ve got it there? A. Yes.
Q. And there is nothing wrong with having it, is there?
A. No.
Q. And you use the facilities there at Louisburg schoo
A. Yes.
Q. Do you play tennis? A. No, I don’t. No, I don’t know
how.
Q. You have never been out there and tried to use tha,
have you? A. No.
973a
Q. And the only sport you went out for—you are on the
track team, aren’t you? A. Yes.
Q. And you have been to all the track meets this year?
—103—
A. Yes.
Q. And I will ask you if you don’t know that Mr. Bolton
himself worked up your track team individually in order
to get football players in shape? A. Yes, I do.
Q. That was his own project; he worked it up? A. Well,
he said that he was going to start it, but I didn’t know for
sure that was his project.
Q. He told you he was going to start it; you heard him
say he was going to start a track team? A. Yes.
Q. And this year is the first year so far as you know
that they had one at Louisburg? A. To my knowledge this
is the first, yes.
Q. And did you ever hear the coach at Riverside ever
say anything about starting a track team over there? A.
No. I haven’t done much talking to the coaches over there
about sports because I didn’t see them there.
Q. They were there on the school premises when you
were there, weren’t they? A. Yes.
Q. And you could have talked to them if you had wanted
to? A. Yes, I could.
—104—
hi. And did you complain to Mr. Harris at Riverside,
or any of the coaches over there, about the teams that
iverside played? A. No, I haven’t complained.
Vi- Did your father ever do it, or your mother? A. Not
to my knowledge.
Q- Have you ever complained to Coach Bolton or Mr.
°x, the principal at Louisburg School, about the teams,
e a hletie teams, the Louisburg teams played? A. No.
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
974a
Mr. Chambers: We object to that.
Mr. Yarborough: I think I have a right to ask it.
Mr. Chambers: The only thing we want to say is
that the lawsuit speaks for itself.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Have your mother and father ever complained, so
far as you know, to the Coach or the principal of the Louis-
hurg School about the teams that Louisburg School plays!
A. I don’t know. I don’t think so.
Mr. Chambers: Again, the lawsuit speaks for it
self.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Do you know that the lights on the Louisburg athletic
—105-
field were donated by private citizens without expense to
the Board of Education? A. No.
Q. Have you carried any money up there this year to con
tribute to the building of the athletic field or installation
of the lights on the athletic field? A. No, I haven’t.
Q. And with regard to the drier and other items in the
gym, do you know that the people gave those items to the
school without expense to the Board of Education? A. No,
I didn’t know that.
Q. Have you ever carried any money up there as a
donation to buy any equipment of that nature for the
gymnasium this year? A. No.
Q. You can use any of it you want, can’t you? A. Well,
I guess I could.
Q. You never have been refused the use of the weighing
machine or the drier, have you? A. No.
Deposition of Paul G. Engram
975a
Deposition of Paul C. Engroni
Q. Now, you say some of the boys wear emblems'? A.
Yes.
Q. Containing the letters United Klans of America?
Q. What kind of emblems are they? Buttons, or badges,
or what? A. Well, it’s this little four-cornered paper
thing that has glue on the back, and they stick it to their
shirt, that has United Klans of America with two hands on
it. They are shaking and joined together. And then they
have papers that they wear on their lapels that have
Never” on it, and that stands for “ never integrate.”
Q. How do you know what it stands for ? A. I have over
heard conversations.
Q. But it is integrated. A. Yes, but they don’t want it.
Q- It is integrated and you are there ? A. Yes.
Q- You are colored? A. Yes, and they don’t want it.
Q. But many white boys are enrolled in your class? A.
Lot more whites than there are colored.
Q- Did you ever complain to anybody—your teacher or
your principal—about those signs ? A. Yes, I did.
Q. Who did you complain to ? A. I have told the princi
pal about them, and he has seen them, also.
n T, — 107—
V- lm asking you what you did and not what he did.
hpT u° mT kn°W he has seen them? A - Because he can’t
^ it. They are walking around all the time.
And they are students in the school? A. Yes.
worntndi / ° Uiare there this year and U)u saw the signs worn by these boys? A. Yes.
n(3 Alld/ ° U apPded to So back to the same school there
next year? A. That’s right.
976a
Q. Didn’t you? A. Yes, I did.
Q. And your father brought this lawsuit in your behalf
to get in a grade that wasn’t integrated here that year—
that’s correct, wasn’t it. A. That’s correct.
Q. And you knew it was four grades that year? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And the grade you were entering was not one of them!
A. That’s right.
Q. And your father joined in this lawsuit in your name!
—108—
A. Yes.
Q. That’s correct, isn’t it? A. That’s correct.
Q. And when he did, the following year—strike that.
You knew at the time your application was rejected year
before last, or 1965, you knew that all grades would be
opening next year? A. No, I didn’t know that they would
be all opening.
Q. Didn’t you know that the plan of compliance said that
the Board of Education provided four grades the first year
and all twelve the next year? A. Well, I knew about the
four the first year, but I didn’t find out about the twelve
until last year.
Q. This current year you applied for the Louisburg
School and got it? A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you are a student there now? A. Yes, I am.
Q. And your sister—your parents applied for her, on her
behalf for this year at Louisburg School and she got as
signed to Louisburg School? A. Yes.
Q. And she is still a student there, isn’t she? A. Yes.
Q. And expects to graduate? A. Yes.
—109—
Q. And your seat in the classroom—you say the first few
Deposition of Paul C. Engrain
977a
Deposition of Paul C. Engrarn
days you picked your own seat? A. When we came in we
were allowed to take whatever seat we could find available.
Q. And you took one that you could find available? A.
Yes.
Q. And you sat there for the rest of the time? A. Well,
in all of my classes except one.
Q. Which class was that? A. In civics. And there I
was moved.
Q. You moved. Which teacher was that? A. Mrs.
Gardner.
Q. How many subjects do you take? A. I take five
subjects.
Q. And so in four of those you were allowed to pick
your own seat? A. Well, in three of them. One is physical
education.
Q. There is no seat there, so in three of them you picked
your own seat. Who is your home room teacher? A Mr
Bolton.
Q. And you picked your seat in your home room when
you got there, got whatever seat that was available and you
sat m it and you were assigned it and people were told to
eep their seats they had picked. That’s correct, isn’t it?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, Paul, when did you find out you were going to be
a witness over here today? A. Let’s see. I think it was
Inursday night.
Q- Night before last? A. Yes.
Q. Today is Saturday, isn’t it? A. Yes.
Q- And Thursday night where were you when you found
°! J at you were to Be a witness? A. I was at the home
of Mr. Otis Gfil.
978a
Q. Now, who is he? A. Well, he is a local Negro resi
dent.
Q. Where does he live? A. I am not sure of the route,
hut he lives out here like you’re going to Pruitt’s. On
around here this way. Pm not sure what route that is.
Q. What were you doing out at Mr. Gill’s house on
Thursday night? Why were you out there? A. Well, we
went out there.
Q. Who is “we” now? A. Well, my sister and I and some
more students.
Q. Who were the others? A. Well, there was Elizabeth
Strickland, and there was—Elizabeth Strickland, Puffin
Gill and another little girl. I am not sure of her name, but
—Ill—
she is a Brawley. She was there, also. And Christopher
Neal.
Q. Who carried you out there? A. My sister drove.
Q. Your father and mother’s car? A. Yes.
Q. Why did you all go? A. Well, we were supposed to
have a meeting and talk to Mr. Kennedy.
Q. Who told you about the meeting? A. Patrical Gill.
Q. At school or where? A. No, I was at home at the
time.
Q. Did she come there, or called there? A. She called
up to my house.
Q. By telephone? A. Yes.
Q. And told you about a meeting. What sort of meeting
did she tell you about? A. Well, she just said that Mr.
Kennedy was to talk to all the students that went to Louis-
burg High School on Thursday night, and she didn’t say
what kind of meeting it would be. She just said he wanted
to talk to us.
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
979a
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
— 112—
Q- In other words, Mr. Kennedy sent word for yon to
come to see him out at Mr. Otis Gill’s?
Mr. Kennedy: Object.
Mr. Yarborough: (To witness) You can answer.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Did you go looking for him or—you look for him?
A. He asked me to come out.
Q. Sent word by Patricia Gill? A. Yes.
Q. Was that the first time that you knew you would be a
witness? A. Yes.
Q. Who else was at the meeting at Mr. Gill’s house?
A. There was all Mr. Ruffin Gill’s children who go to school
over there, and all of Mr. Otis Gill’s children, and my sister,
and Christopher Neal, and Elizabeth Strickland.
Q. Were there any grown people there? A. Yes.
Q. Except Mr. Kennedy? A. Mr. Otis Gill’s wife and
Mr. Linwood Gill’s wife—Linwood Strickland’s wife, and
Mr. Kennedy, and that’s all.
Q. Was the Reverend Mr. Dunston there? A. Yes,
Keverend Dunston was there, also.
Q. Was Mr. Otis Gill there? A. Well, he was there at
the beginning of the meeting, but he had to go somewhere
and attend to some business, but he got back before it was
dosed out, but he was not there all the time, the complete
meeting.
Q- That was at night, wasn’t it? A. Yes.
Q- How long did you meet? A. I guess it was about two
ours, I guess. Something like that. Two or three. Some
thing like that.
980a
Q. Do you know why the Reverend Dunston was there!
A. No, I don’t.
Q. What was he doing or saying there! A. He was
there. He asked us a few questions and he took notes to
the answers that we were asked.
Q. Mr. Kennedy take notes, too! A. Yes, he took a few.
Q. The Mr. Kennedy you are talking about is the gentle
man here, representing the government, isn’t it! A. Yes,
it is.
Q. The lawyer here. Your father works over at the Wake
Finishing Plant, doesn’t he! A. No, sir.
Q. Where does he work! A. He works at Lawrence
—114-
Glass, Inc., in Henderson.
Q. Lawrence Glass Works, Inc.! A. Yes.
Q. How long has he worked there! A. Oh, I guess lie’s
been there about two weeks.
Q. He did work at Wake Finishing! A. Yes, ne did.
Q. For a year or more! A. Not quite a year I don’t
think. Just—it was about a year, not quite.
Q. Paul, you get along all right with all of your teachers,
do you! A. Yes.
Q. And with Mr. F ox! A. Yes.
Q. And with anybody else connected with the school or
the faculty or staff! A. Yes.
Q. You knew Mrs. Gertie Jones! A. Yes, I know her.
Q. Did she teach you at Riverside! A. Yes, she did.
Q. And she was up at Louisburg High School this year
as a librarian! A. As far as I know.
—115—
Q. She was a libarian! A. As far as I know she is, hat
she had to stop in the middle of the year.
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
981a
Deposition of Paul C. Eng ram
Q. She got sick, didn’t she? I mean nobody fired her.
She stopped because she got sick and on account of her
health? A. Yes. So far as I know. That is what I have
been told.
Q. You have also got along with her? A. Yes.
Q. You passed her grade while she taught at Riverside?
A. Yes.
Q. And she was a very fine lady, wasn’t she? A. Yes.
Q. And as far as you know the faculty at Louisburg are
very fine people? A. Yes, they are pretty nice people.
Q. And how many track meets have you run in? A. So
far I have run in three.
Q. And what do you run? A. I run a four-forty in a
mile relay.
Q. In a mile relay, four-forty odd dash? A. Yes.
Q. And when you run the students cheer for you just
like they do for the others? A. Well, I guess they do.
—116—
When I am running I concentrate on running.
Q. You are running as hard as you can, trying to win?
A. I really don’t pay too much attention to it. That’s right.
Q. And that is the only athletic team you have been out
for, wasn’t it? A. Well, I wanted to go out for football
but I was not allowed to.
Q. Why? A. Because I was told at the beginning of the
year that football practice had started and that I couldn’t
play this year. I would have to wait to next year.
Q. You were told that by whom? A. By the coach, Mr.
Bolton.
Q. That it was too late and they start early. Don’t you
know they start several weeks before school opens ? A.
es, I knew that, but I didn’t know when they started.
982a
Q. You know they did start early, and he said it would
be better to wait until next year ? A. He told me I ’d have
to wait.
Q. Did you complain to the principal about that? A. No,
—117—
I didn’t. I just accepted it as a fact.
Q. And you expect to go out this coming year? A. Yes,
I am.
Q. You have been playing J-Y football, haven’t you!
A. You mean at Riverside?
Q. At Louisburg. A. No, I haven’t played J-V football.
Q. Did they have a team? A. Yes, they had a team.
Q. Did you go out for it? A. No, I didn’t.
Q. Why didn’t you? A. Well, because I consider most
of the boys too small, and they were smaller hoys than me.
Q. Smaller than you? A. Yes.
Q. Well, it is available to ninth grade students, J-V foot
ball? A. I guess it is.
Q. You don’t say it is not available to the ninth grade
students, do you? A. No, I am not saying that.
Q. Have you ever applied for the Beta Club at Louis
burg? A. No, because you have to be there and have a
certain grade for a certain length of time to join, and I
—118-
have not had that grade.
Q. You haven’t met the qualifications yet, that’s right,
isn’t it? A. No.
Q. Have you ever applied for the Quill and Scroll? A.
No. I haven’t had time or haven’t met the qualifications,
or had the time.
Q. So you haven’t applied, anyhow? A. You don’t ap
ply really. Your name is checked and if you meet the
qualifications, they notify you. You don’t apply.
Deposition of Paul C. Engrarn
983a
Q. You haven’t met the qualifications to be a member of
tie Quill and Scrool—that is right, isn’t it! A. Well, I
aven’t as I know of.
Q. Now, when you looked in these other boys’ lockers
ou said you saw some flags or banners. A. I didn’t look
a them. They had them open and when I walked by and
)oked I could see them.
Q. You had to look that way! A. Yes, I had to look.
Q. And toward the open locker you saw some banners
nd flags in there! A. Yes.
Q. And they belonged to those boys there so far as you
now! A. I guess they belonged to them.
— 119—
Q. It’s a lock on the locker, isn’t it! A. Yes.
Q. So you were walking by and looked that way and
Doked into the lockers and saw these flags! A. I was
talking down the hall and glanced in that direction.
Q. I say you had to glance that way; if you looked
traight ahead, you couldn’t see in there, could you! A.
lot, not possibly.
Q. So you did look that way! A. Yes.
Q. When did you complain to Mr. Fox about these ban
kers or stickers, or whatever! A. Well, when we had this
meeting where he called all the Negro students together,
told him about all of this.
Q. When was that! A. Oh, we’ve had several of them
his year. We had one close to when school opened. We
iad them at different times.
Q- That was in a meeting then, you didn’t go to him in
dividually and complain! A. No, because he—some stu
dents had already complained about this.
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
984a
— 120—
Q. I am not asking you about what somebody else did.
Have you ever gone to him individually and complained!
You can say yes or no and then you can explain.
Mr. Kennedy: And then explain.
A. No, I haven’t because if I had, by the time we had this
meeting—they occurred about the same time, about the
same time they occurred, and I could have told him, but
we had the meeting.
Q. That is why you didn’t go to him. Did you ever go
to him and tell him about the banners in somebody’s lock
ers? A. I told him at the meeting.
Q. And he held the meetings in an attempt to have
smooth relations; that is what he was asking at the meet
ings, wasn’t it? A. I guess that is what he was asking. He
tells us to over look whatever they say and do to us if it is
possible.
Q. You are not complaining about the meetings he held
with you, are you? A. Well, in a way.
Q. You are complaining that you don’t want to go to any
more meetings? A. Yes, I don’t mind going to the meet
ings- . . t, A
Q. What complaint do you have? A. I believe if we had
meetings where the white students were making the trouble
with the colored, it would have been settled faster, than
just having it separate there.
Q. In other words, you are complaining about the way
Mr. Fox was handling the situation? A. I am not com
plaining about his way. That is what he thought was best
maybe.
Deposition of Paul C. Engrarn
985a
Q. Did you ever go to Mr. Fox and talk to him about the
,vay the situation was being handled by him? A. No, I
lidn’t.
Q. Did you go to Mr. Bolton, your room teacher, and
say that the situation wasn’t being handled like you thought
it ought to be? A. No.
Q. Now, Mr. Fox is the principal of the school, isn’t he?
A Yes, he is.
Q. And you’ve got what—six or seven hundred students
ap there? A. Yes.
Q. And the first time then that you complained about the
way he was trying to handle the situation was here today?
— 122—
Mr. Chambers: We object to that.
Mr. Kennedy: Objection.
Mr. Chambers: I think the witness has already
answered the question.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. I am asking if the first time that you complained or
stated he wasn’t handling it the right way was here today?
A. Yes. Well, now, I will change that. I had told my par
ents about it before.
Q. And when was that? A. Oh, that was about the end
of last year.
Q. The end of when? A. The end of the year, of the
year 1966, close to the end of ’66.
Q- Of the school year ’66 or the calendar year? A. No,
the calendar year ’66.
Q. Do you know what they did, if anything? A. No, J
don’t.
Q- You have a telephone in your home? A. Yes.
Q. And there is a telephone at the school, isn’t it? A.
Yes.
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
986a
Q, Do you know whether Mr. Fox has got a telephone in
his home? A. I presume he has.
—123—
Q. And your father, when he worked at Wake Finishing,
he worked at night, didn’t he? A. Yes.
Q. And was at home all day? A. Well, yes, he was.
Q. Between sleeping and eating in the morning he had
the rest of the day off, until he went back to work that
night, didn’t he? A. Yes.
Q. And your mother and father have an automobile, don’t
they? A. Yes.
Q. And your father can drive one, can’t he? A. Yes.
Q. And your mother can? A. No, she doesn’t.
Q. Why? She doesn’t drive? A. No.
Q. Your sister drives? A. Yes.
Q. You are not old enough to drive? A. Not yet.
Q. And you stated here several instances or incidences
in which you were embarrassed, or whatever, by statements
or things said in your presence, or things you say in writ-
—124—
ing, hut you still applied for the coming school year to go
right hack to Louisburg, is that right? A. Yes, that’s cor
rect.
Q. And you expect to go back there? A. Yes, I do.
Q. Paul, you say that your father brought this case in
your behalf in 1965 in an effort to get you and your sister
into the Louisburg School.
Mr. Kennedy: Objection.
A. Yes.
Deposition of Paul C. Engrarn
Mr. Yarborough: He answered that in response
to one of you all’s questions.
987a
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Now, did you know this case was still going on until
Mr. Kennedy sent for you?
Mr. Chambers: We object to that. We instruct
the witness not to answer. That is a privileged mat
ter, attorney-client relationship. That is my client
and I know it.
Mr. Yarborough: Well, I will rephrase the ques
tion then.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. I will ask you did you know that this case was still
going on until last Thursday night ?
Mr. Chambers: We again object, Mr. Yarborough.
—125—
Mr. Yarborough: He is a party to it,
(Discussion off record)
Mr. Yarborough: I withdraw that question.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. I will ask you, Paul, if you don’t know that your
father has stated in the last few months that he thought
the case was over?
Mr. Chambers: We object to that. If you know.
A. Well, I heard them talking about it, and I think he knew
that it was still going on.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. How long ago was that? A. You mean how long—
988a
well, I heard thm talking about it about a month ago. Yes,
about a month ago.
Q. Heard them talking about it? Your father and who?
A. My mother.
Q. So you never heard him say that he thought the case
was over then? A. No, I didn’t ever hear him say that,
Q. Well, Paul, this case was brought in your name by
your father so you could get into the Louisburg School?
A. Yes.
Q. Now you are in the Louisburg School. That’s cor
rect, isn’t? A. Yes, I am.
Q. Just what your father brought the suit about?
—126—
Mr. Chambers: We object to that. If he knows.
But we’d like to state, for the record, all the com
plaints and pleadings is a part of the record.
Mr. Yarborough: I am asking him if that wasn’t
what the suit was brought about.
Mr. Kennedy: Objection. And the government,
by the way, should not be left out in this case. You
can’t ask him for it.
Mr. Yarborough: I didn’t ask him for the govern
ment.
Mr. Kennedy: The government’s case is still rep
resented.
Mr. Chambers: W e’d like to also state for the rec
ord that so far as the individual complaint, is con
tained in paragraph two or three of the complaint.
This is a class action brought by several Negro chil
dren. The prayer for relief and the allegations in
the complaint are clear.
Mr. Yarborough: But I still ask if he knows, he
can answer it.
Deposition of Paul G. Engram
989a
Mr. Chambers: I f the witness knows.
Mr. Yarborough: Of course, I don’t expect him
to testify to anything he doesn’t know. X haven’t
asked him to testify to anything that he doesn’t
know to his own knowledge.
— 127—
A. Well, I think the reason he brought the suit about was
because he figured, and many of the other parents, that
their students could get a much better education at the
Louisburg School than they could at Eiverside.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. That’s right, and so that is what he claimed, and you
are now in the Louisburg School? A. Yes.
Q. And you are expecting to go back next year? A. I
expect to.
Q. Paul, you say that somebody held up a picture of a
colored woman and on it were the words, “ Went all the
way with L B J.” A. No, I didn’t say they held it up. I
say it was up under my desk.
Q. Do you know who put it there? A. No, I don’t.
Q. Did you give the picture to the teacher? A. No, I
didn’t.
Q. What did you do with it? A. I don’t know. I gave
it to the girl that was sitting behind me and I don’t know
what she did with it.
Q. This picture of a woman with a big stomach, you
say, and you— A. Yes.
—128—
Q. And you gave it to a girl? A. Yes. The girl was
bitting behind me. She is a senior and she knew more about
what to do with it than I did.
Q- Who is the girl? A. Patricia Gill.
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
990a
Q. So that is what you did with a picture of that kind.
Do you know what she did with it? A. No, I don’t. I am
sure she knew more about what to do with it than I did
though.
Q. "What class was that in! A. Study hall.
Q. Who was in charge of the class at the time? A. Mr.
Bolton.
Q. A man? A. Yes.
Q. And he is a big strong able-bodied man, isn’t he? A.
I guess he is.
Q. And you did not show it to Mr. Bolton? A. No, be
cause we were told that we should be able to overlook
some things, by the principal.
Q. Whatever reason, you did not show it to him. That
was my question. Did you? A. No, I did not show it to
him.
Q. So that was a thing that in your judgment that you
—129-
ought to try to overlook? A. According to the principal’s
instructions. That was one of the things that was handled
at the beginning of the school, so I let it slide because I
thought maybe it would eventually stop.
Q. Now, do you know the names of the boys who were
in charge of these lockers you saw what you say were
banners? A. Well, I know who was in charge of one of
the lockers, but I am not sure who was in charge of the
other.
Q. And in this one who was the one that you know was
in charge? A. A boy named Larry Lloyd.
Q. Larry Lloyd? A. Yes.
Q. Is he Dr. Lloyd’s son? A. I don’t know.
Q. And what was in his locker? A. The triangular
shaped KK K flag.
Deposition of Paul C. Engrain
j
991a
Q. Is Larry in your room? A. Yes.
Q. Now, can you give us the names of any of these school
children that you say had these stickers on their backs,
—130—
or however they— A. Well, I can give you the name of
one of the boys that I remember, because when they were
wearing this I hadn’t got familiar with the names of all
the students, but one of the boys were Paul Duke. And I
am sure he could tell you the name of all the others.
Q. Did I—what was that last remark? Did I ask you for
that?
Mr. Kennedy: We object to that.
Mr. Yarborough: Did I ask him what Paul Duke
could do.
Mr. Chambers: We object to that as argumenta
tive.
Mr. Yarborough: I wish you would instruct your
client not to volunteer statements not responsive to
the questions.
Mr. Kennedy: He is allowed to explain it.
Mr. Yarborough: That is not an explanation.
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. And that is the only one you can give right now, is
that correct—the only name? A. Well, yes, it is.
Q. And this picture you say that Christopher Neal had—
did you see him showing it to girls? A. No, not—I didn’t
see him showing it to anybody. He showed it to me however.
— 131—
, nd what day was that? A. You mean that he
showed it to me?
Q- Yes. A. He showed it to me yesterday, Friday,
hi At school? A. Yes.
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
992a
Q. Where did he have it—in his pocket or where? A.
Yes, he__after he got it out of his locker, he put it in his
pocket. .
Q. Did he get it out of his locker on Friday? A. I dont
know when he got it out of his locker.
Q. How do yon know he put it in his pocket after he got
it out of his locker? Were yon there when he got it out of
his locker? A. No, I wasn’t.
Q. He was showing it to yon yesterday at school?
Yes. He showed it to me in study hall yesterday.
Q. You said you saw a note that somebody got. What
was the name of the person that got a note? A. You mean
a note that was written to them?
Q. Yes. A. Well, two people to my knowledge received
—no, three people to my knowledge. There was Carolyn
Jones, received a note, and Charles Gill received a note.
And Brenda Fogg received a note.
----- ± O U
Q. Is Brenda Fogg any kin to you? A. Well, she is
my cousin.
Q. What cousin? A. I think it’s third or fourth. I am
not sure.
Q. Mr. Pond Fogg is your grandfather? A. Yes.
Q. Is he also Brenda’s grandfather? A. No.
Q. Is Paul Duke in your class? A. Not m my home
room, but we take study hall under the same teacher.
Q. Who was the teacher in charge at that time? A. 03
mean in charge of the study hall?
Q. Study hall. A. Mr. Bolton.
Q. He conducted your study hall pretty much? A. **■
Q. And you say a boy had a notebook that was—writ ®
something about never, or never integrate. Who was t »
boy? A. William Wester.
Deposition of Paul C. Engrain
993a
Q. William Wester? A. Yes.
Q. Is he in the ninth grade, too? A. Yes, he is.
—133—
Q. In your home room? A. In my home room and also
in the science class. That is where the note was seen.
Q. Is the science class by William Wester? A. Yes.
Q. Did you report that to the teacher? A. I reported
that to Mr. Fox and he told me—may I explain?
Q. When did you report it? At one of those meetings?
A. Yes.
Q. How long ago was that? A. You mean that I saw
it?
Q. Yes. A. It was a couple of months ago, I guess, and
I reported it to Mr. Fox and he told me that whenever the
teacher went out of the room, if anyone tried to hold up
a note like that, he’d get as busy as possible and try not
to see it.
Q. That is what he would do? A. Yes. And he was—
Q- Was the teacher in the room? Was the teacher in
the room at the time that William Lester held this note
np? A. No, she wasn’t. She had gone to the office on
some business.
—134—
Q. Now, you are not—you don’t think—you are not satis
fied with a lot of things that Mr. Fox is doing, are you? A.
Yes, I am satisfied with his work, partially, yes. Mostly.
Q- In what ways are you not satisfied then? Go ahead
and tell us. We’d like to know. A. There is not no one
way, but I will clarify one statement. Well, a lot of things
at started at the beginning of school happened and are
s 1 appening now, and I don’t know whether all that much
ras een done to stop it, and that is why I am not satis-
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
994a
Q. And yet, though, you expect him to he the principal
next year, don’t you? A. Yes. He seems to be a pretty
good principal.
Q. And you expect him to he there next year? A. Yes.
Q. Have you ever complained to anybody about Mr,
Fox? A. Well, I have talked to my parents about him.
Q. To your mother and your father? A. To my father,
Q. And do you know whether or not he ever went up to
see Mr. Fox about it? A. No, I guess—may I explain.
—135—
Q. First answer my question and then give any explana
tion. A. No, he hasn’t gone up to see him to my knowledge.
And, also, I figured—
Q. I don’t want any guesswork about it, but as far as
I am concerned you can answer it.
Mr. Chambers: That is okay. (To Witness) Un
less Mr. Yarborough wants it, don’t answer.
Mr. Yarborough: I just said I did not want any
guesswork. I don’t think that is proper in court.
That’s all. Thank you.
Mr. Kennedy: No further questions.
Redirect Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. What did the students who wore these emblems that
you referred to a moment ago wear in addition to these
emblems? A. You mean as far as clothing or something?
Q. Yes. A. Well, there was sort of a little club or some
thing around school that they had gotten up. I guess it was
a club. Anyway, most of the trouble-makers in the school,
you know, that caused us trouble, would wear these field
jackets, Army field jackets, and some of them had all kinds
of writing about K K K and had crosses—one hoy had
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
995a
Deposition of Paul G. Engram
- 1 3 6 -
crosses drawn on the back of his with K K K wrote it.
And stuff like that.
Q. Do you know of your own knowledge whether Mr.
Fox, the principal, said anything to those students in
reference to the things they were wearing? A. No. To
my knowledge.
Q. You don’t really know whether he did? A. No, I
don’t.
Q. When was the last time you saw such emblems on
students? A. Well, one boy had on his coat the day—this
week, the day it rained, anyway. He had on his coat, the
same coat that he had been wearing, with the same stuff
on it.
Q. Do you know his name? A. Thomas Finch.
Mr. Chambers: No further questions.
ReCross-Examination Toy Mr. Yarborough:
Q- You say a boy with crosses on the back of his field
jacket who was that? A. That was Thomas Finch.
Q- And had his coat on when it rained this time? A. The
last time I saw it was this week, the day that it rained this
week. That was the last time I saw it.
Q. What day was that? Do you remember? A. No,
I don’t remember the day.
Q. Is Thomas Finch in your class, in your home room?
A. Not in my home room, but we take study hall together.
Q- And he wore that jacket right out in the open where
everybody could see it? A. Yes.
Q- Teachers and all? A. Yes.
Q- And do you know where Thomas Finch lives? A.
1 °> I don’t have any idea.
996a
Q. Now, you referred a moment ago to students whom
you described were trouble-makers? A. Yes.
Q. Who are the students that you were describing as
trouble-makers? A. Well, I would put Thomas Finch, and
Tommie Wrenn.
Q. Just one minute. Thomas Finch? A. Yes.
Q. All right. Tommie Wrenn? A. Yes.
Q. All right. A. And Paul Duke, and Wilbur Moore.
—138—
Q. All right. A. They are the main ones, but a lot of
others have done things, but they are the ones that have
done it most.
Q. Can you give us any more names? A. Well, I could
if you want them.
Q. Give them. I want them. A. Well, Jeffrey Pearce.
Q. Jeffrey? A. Yes.
Q. Pearce? A. Yes. That is about all of them. And,
oh, yeah, let me think of the other boy—I don’t know all
of their names, but let me think. I don’t know all of their
names. No, that is all.
Q. And they are all students who are near your own
age and within a grade or two of you, aren’t they? A.
Yes.
Q. Right at the school? A. Yes.
Q. And you consider yourself a good strong health hoy,
don’t you? A. I say I am, yes.
Q. You want to go out for football? A. Yes.
—139—
Q. That is a rough sport, isn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. Takes a strong boy to play it? A. Yes.
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all.
Mr. Kennedy: That’s all.
Witness excused.
Deposition of Paul C. Engram
■
-
.
'
MEILEN PRESS INC. — N. Y. C.ogĝ *219
I n t h e
Intt?b Btixtw Court of Kppmis
F o u r t h C i r c u i t
No. 11,794
H a r o l d D o u g l a s C o p p e d g e , a minor, et al.,
and
U n i t e d S t a t e s o f A m e r i c a , etc.,
Appellees,
T h e F r a n k l i n C o u n t y B o a r d o f E d u c a t i o n , et al.,
Appellants.
appeal f r o m t h e d i s t r i c t c o u r t o f t h e u n i t e d s t a t e s f o r t h e
EASTERN DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA
RALEIGH DIVISION-CIVIL
APPELLEES’ APPENDIX
EXHIBIT VOLUME
Pages 1535a to 1618a
John Doar J a c k G r e e n b e r g
Assistant Attorney General J a m e s M. N a b r i t , III
T eank E. S c h w e l b
R o b e r t B e l t o n
Fbancis H. K e n n e d y
J a m e s N. F i n n e y
Department of Justice 10 Columbus Circle
Washington, D.C. 20530 New York, New York 10019
Attorneys for
Plaintiff s-lntervenors-Appellees
J. L e V o n n e C h a m b e r s
405% East Trade Street
Charlotte, North Carolina
C o n r a d O. P e a r s o n
203% East Chapel Hill Street
Durham, North Carolina
Attorneys for
Plaintiffs-Appellees
I N D E X
Volume I
PAGE
Complaint........................................................................ 2a
Answer ........................................................................... 10a
Exhibit “A ” Attached to Answer—General
Statement of Policies, etc. (Omitted) ............. 16a
Order............................................................................... 17a
Complaint in Intervention ......................................... 18a
Verified Answer to Complaint in Intervention........... 26a
Transcript of Hearing on Motion for Preliminary
Injunction.................................................................... 35a
Motion to Delay Injunction................................. 150a
Order Denying Motion for Preliminary Injunction .... 156a
Findings of Fact; Conclusions of Law; Interim
0rder................................................................. ig2a
Appendix A—Plan for Compliance, etc............. 171a
Appendix B—Assurance of Compliance, etc. .... 177a
Plaintiffs’ Response to Defendants’ Standards for
Employment, etc........................................................ 180a
Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Objections to Defendants’
Standards, etc............................................................. 182a
Motion to Require Defendants to Eliminate Edu
cational Disparities ................................................... 185a
1V
Stipulated Testimony of Satterwhite, Moore, Geddie
and D unn.................................................................... 41Qa
Deposition of Nellie Margaret Kearney .................. 413a
Deposition of Irene Arrington................................... 418a
T e s t i m o n y
(Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction)
Government’s Witnesses
Warren W. Smith—
Direct (By Mr. Fink) ..................................48a, 79a
Direct (By Mr. Chambers) .......................... 59a
Cross (By Mr. Yarborough) ........................ 83a
Redirect (By Mr. Chambers) ................ 112a, 146a
Recross (By Mr. Yarborough) .............. 137a, 148a
Redirect (By Mr. Fink) ............................... 149a
Volume II
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham .................483a, 907a
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood ..........................526a, 742a
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge ...... ................. 560a
Deposition of Spencer McKinley Massenburg ..... 590a
Exhibit 1—Note .................................................... 601a
Exhibit 2—Note .................................................... 603a
PAGE
Deposition of Queen E. W ortham ............................... 3 9 7a
V
Deposition of Plummer Alston, Jr. .................... ....... 604a
Government’s Exhibit 1—-Article in Franklin
Times................................................................... - 611a
Deposition of Inez Davis........................................... . 612a
Exhibit A—Form B ................ .......................... . 623a
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek .......... .......... 625a
Deposition of Margaret Crndnp................................ 648a
Government’s Exhibits 2 and 3—N otes ...... 667a
Government’s Exhibit 4—Letter dated August
12, 1965 ................................................................ 669a
Deposition of James T. Anderson ....................... 670a
Government’s Exhibit 1—Article from Franklin
Times.................................................................... 689a
Deposition of Joseph Henry Branch ........................ 690a
Exhibit 1—Letter dated June 10, 1965 .......... . 705a
Exhibit 2—School Preferential Form .............. 707a
Exhibit 3—School Preferential Form .............. 709a
Deposition of Christine Coppedge ...................... 710a, 760a
Government’s Exhibit 1—Article from Franklin
Times.................................................................... 725a
PAGE
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers ......................726a, 847a
Government’s Exhibit 1—Article from Franklin
Times 741a
VI
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg ............................. 821a
Deposition of Buck Norwood ................................... 882a
Deposition of Christopher Neal ............................... 925a
Deposition of Paul C. Engrain ............................... 959a
Volume III
Deposition of Warren E. Massenburg ................... 997a
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson .....................1014a
Deposition of William L. Stormer ......................... 1036a
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan ............................ 1096a
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey ............................ 1127a
Deposition of Michael Dan Matthews .................... 1119a
Deposition of Wanda Lou Parrish .......................... 1151a
Deposition of Sheral Frazier ....................................1153a
Deposition of Jerry Wayne Boone ......................... 1151a
Deposition of Ira Bowden ......................................... 1153a
Deposition of Mattie G. C. Harris ........................ 1163a
Deposition of Arnee Hartsfield ............................... H'5a
PAGE
D eposition o f A lice F a y Clanton ............. 790a
Deposition of Ruby E. Perry ........................ ........... 1183a
Deposition of Charlie White ...................................... 1189a
Deposition of Frank W. Rogers .............................. 1194a
Deposition of Joyce Terrell ....................................... 1202a
Deposition of Willie Perry ....................................... 1208a
Deposition of Dazell Walters ................................... 1214a
Deposition of Sadie M. Suitt .................................... 1216a
Deposition of Joyce Griffin .............................. .......... 1221a
Deposition of Robert B. Fleming ............................ 1226a
Deposition of Alvaretta Moore ................................ 1230a
Deposition of Cunetter Bolden .................................. 1235a
Deposition of Melissa Dean ....................................... 1236a
Deposition of Ollie Strickland .................................. 1241a
Deposition of Gladys Hayes ..................................... 1243a
Deposition of Robert Richardson .............................. 1244a
Deposition of Evelyn Kay Harris .......................... 1246a
Deposition of Veronica Hawkins
vii
PAGE
Deposition o f M attie W . Crudup ..................................... 1179a
1252a
V l l l
Transcript o f Trial July 25-26, 1967 ........................... 1256a
Summation of Argument by Counsel................. 1489a
(Trial July 25-26, 1967)
Plaintiffs’ Witness
Rev. Luther Coppedge—
Direct (By Mr. Schwelb) ............................... 1259a
Direct (By Mr. Chambers) ........................... 1286a
Cross (By Mr. Yarborough) ......................... 1287a
Redirect (By Mr. Schwelb) ............................. 1316a
Reeross (By Mr. Yarborough) .......................1319a
Defendants’ Witness
Warren W. Smith—
Direct (By Mr. Davis) ................................... 1330a
Cross (By Mr. Chambers) .............................1354a
Cross (By Mr. Schwelb) ............................... 1398a
Redirect (By Mr. Davis) ......................1436a, 1483a
Recross (By Mr. Chambers) ......................... 1470a
Recross (By Mr. Schwelb) ........................... 1477a
PAGE
IX
Exhibit Volume
EX H IB ITS
PAGE
Government Trial Exhibit 16 (Excerpts from the
Minutes of the Franklin County Board of Educa
tion (Minutes of the Meeting of February 4,
1963) ................................................................................ 1535a
Government Trial Exhibit 20 ........................................ 1545a
Government Trial Exhibit 22 ....................................... 1547a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of Sidney
W. Manley of July 26, 1966 ........................................ 1550a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of Margaret
Crudup of July 27, 1966 ............................................ 1550a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of William
L. Stormer of May 19, 1967 ........................................ 1551a
Government Trial Exhibit 1 ......................................... 1567a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition o f Irene
Arrington of July 27, 1966 ........................................ 1568a
Government Trial Exhibit 15 ...................................... 1570a
Government Trial Exhibit 3 ......................................... 1571a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition o f George
v. Echols of July 26, 1966 ........................................ 1573a
X
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of Irene
Arrington of July 27, 1966 ....................................... 1575s
Government Trial Exhibit 6 ......................................... 1577a
Government Trial Exhibit 5 ......................................... 1578a
Government Trial Exhibit 7 ......................................... 1581a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of Rev
erend Lnther Coppedge of July 28, 1966 ............. 1582a
Government Trial Exhibit 8 ......................................... 1583a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of James
T. Anderson of July 28, 1966 ................................... 1581a
Government Trial Exhibit 9 ...........................................1586a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of Plummer
Alston, Jr. o f July 27, 1966 ....................................... 1587a
Government Trial Exhibit 11 ........................................ 1588a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of Reverend
Sidney Dunston of July 26,1966.............................. 1591a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of Fred W.
Rogers of July 28, 1966 ............................................ 15̂ a
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of Fred W.
Rogers of April 28, 1967 ........................................... 1596a
Government Trial Exhibit 36 ........................................ l ^ a
PAGE
XI
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of Fred W.
Rogers of April 28, 1967 ............................................ 1608a
Government Exhibit 4 to the Deposition of Arthur
L. Morgan of May 20, 1967 ....................................... 1611a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of Arthur
L. Morgan of May 20, 1967 ....................................... 1614a
Government Trial Exhibit 33 ................................. 1616a
Government Trial Exhibit 35 ..................................... 1618a
PAGE
1535a
(Excerpts from the Minutes of the Franklin County
Board of Education)
(Minutes of the Meeting of February 4, 1963)
Mr. Fuller presented a letter and petition from the Frank
lin County Christian Citizenship Club as follows :
Letter:
Franklin County Christian
Citizenship Club
Louisburg, North Carolina
January 24, 1963
The Board of Education
of Franklin County
Louisburg, North Carolina
Dear Sirs:
Enclosed you will find petitions from parents of this
County, desiring that the public schools here be inte
grated. Having become thoroughly aware of the fact
that there is no such thing as separate, but equal,
when it comes to our White and Negro schools, and
realizing that the Negro children need exposure to the
same type and quality of curriculum and training as
other children receive so that they will be well fitted
for life, we feel that this is not an unreasonable desire
and request.
Please inform the undersigned relative to the steps
that will be taken in this matter.
Sincerely yours,
(Signed)
(Bev.) S. G. D t j n s t o n , President
P. 0. Box 23, Louisburg, N. C.
(B ev.) E. L. Bbodie, Recording Sec.
129 Halifax Boad, Louisburg, N. C.
Government Trial Exhibit 16
1536a
Government Trial Exhibit 16
Petition:
“We the undersigned parents of Franklin County with
children presently attending the public schools of Franklin
County do hereby petition the Board of Education of
Franklin County to comply with the United States Supreme
Court decision of 1954 by assigning students to the public
schools without regard to race or color. We further peti
tion that you discuss our request at the next meeting of
the Board and inform the undersigned of what action yon
plan to take in order to desegregate the public schools of
Franklin County.”
This petition contained 120 signatures.
Upon motion by Mr. Fuller seconded by Mr. Cash and duly
carried, the following letter was mailed to Rev. Dunston
and Rev. Brodie.
February 4, 1963
Dear Sirs:
In reply to your letter and petition of January 21,
1963 this is to advise that according to your request
the petition was presented to the Franklin County
Board of Education in regular session this morning.
This will advise you further that it is the policy of
this Board to abide by the Law. It is also the desire
and intention of this Board to provide the very best
possible educational opportunities and facilities to
every child in Franklin County.
Yours truly,
(Mbs.) T. H. Dickens, Chairman ^
Franklin County Board of Education
1537a
(Minutes of the Special Meeting of June 19, 1964)
* # * * *
The Board of Education took the following action on ap
plications for Change in Pupil Assignment:
1. Upon motion by Mr. Fuller, seconded by Mr. Cash, and
duly carried, application filed by Mrs. Christine Rod-
well for reassignment of Charlie Mahope Rodwell from
Riverside School to Louisburg High School was dis
approved.
2. Upon motion by Mr. Fuller, seconded by Mr. Cash, and
duly carried, application filed by Mrs. Christine Rod-
well for reassignment of Hunter Rodwell from River
side School to Louisburg High School was disapproved.
3. Upon motion by Mr. Fuller, seconded by Mr. Cash, and
duly carried, application filed by Mrs. Irene Arrington
and Mr. Lenwood Arrington for reassignment of Norine
Arrington from Cedar Street School to Louisburg High
School was disapproved.
4- Upon motion by Mr. Fuller, seconded by Mrs. Weldon,
and duly carried, application filed by Mrs. Irene Arring
ton and Mr. Lenwood Arrington for reassignment of
Lenwood Arrington, Jr. from Riverside School to Louis
burg' High School was disapproved.
5- Upon motion by Mr. Fuller, seconded by Mr. Baker,
and duly carried, application filed by Mrs. Irene Arring
ton and Mr. Lenwood Arrington for reassignment of
Joe Binnie Arrington from Riverside School to Louis
burg High School was disapproved.
6- Lpon motion by Mr. Cash, seconded by Mr. Fuller, and
July carried, application filed by Ruth and Booster
White for reassignment of Randoph Hewitt White from
Government Trial Exhibit 16
1538a
Youngsville High School to Bunn High School was dis
approved.
7. Upon motion by Mr. Cash, seconded by Mr. Fuller, and
duly carried, application filed by Ruth and Booster
White for reassignment of Donnie Michael White from
Youngsville High School to Bunn High School was dis
approved.
8. Upon motion by Mr. Cash, seconded by Mr. Fuller, and
duly carried, application filed by Ruth and Booster
White for reassignment of Anthony Dale White from
Youngsville High School to Bunn High School was dis
approved.
The three applications made in the names of Fred Truman
Arrington, Larry Donnell Arrington, and Raymond Earl
Arrington were withdrawn on June 16, 1964 by the appli
cants, Susie C. Arrington and St. Clarence Arrington. No
action was taken by the Board.
Government Trial Exhibit 16
1539a
(Minutes of the Meeting of April 12, 1965)
* # # # #
The Secretary read a letter from J. LeVonne Chambers,
Attorney, requesting specific information regarding deseg
regation of the Franklin County Schools. Mr. E. F. Yar
borough, Attorney to the Board, advised the group that
he had been in contact with Conrad 0. Pearson, Associate
of J. LeVonne Chambers, in regard to this matter and
that he would contact the appropriate parties again to in
form them of the progress in this direction.
Petition which was presented to Mrs. T. H. Dickens, Chair
man of the Board, signed by 767 people was brought to the
attention of the Board. This petition, which has been placed
among the official documents relating to the Board of Edu
cation is as follows:
“We the undersigned people of Franklin County, do
hereby express our preference to forfeit Federal Aid
to the schools of said county rather than to support
integration in our schools. We suggest this be put to
a vote by the people to maintain and operate our
school system by a tax on each and every adult tax
payer.”
Government Trial Exhibit 16
1540a
Government Trial Exhibit 16
(Minutes of the Special Meeting of August 23, 1965)
# * * # #
Pursuant to the Franklin County Plan for Compliance with
the Civil Rights act of 1964, the Board made assignments
as follow:
A. F ree Choice A pplications
Students listed below whose parents or legal guardian
filed a “ Free Choice” application, were assigned for the
1965-66 school year to the school and grade opposite
his or her name:
Name oe P upil
Nathan Patterson, Jr........
Christopher Lind Gupton
Annie Jean Davis ............
Jessie M anley....................
Sidney A. M anley............
Thaddeus Jerome Cheek .
Fred Lee Wilkins ............
Julia Marie Hawkins ......
Lynwood E. Neal ............
Christopher L. N e a l........
Jesse Cornelius Whitley .
Mary Rose Gill ................
Timothy N ea l....................
Reginald Jay Carter ......
Thurston Brodie, J r .........
Janice Marie Gupton ......
Cleon L o n g .........................
Beverly Shearin ...............
Joseph Lewis Spivey ......
Agnes M. Jeffreys ..........
Margaret Ree Crudup ....
School Gbads
Louisburg.......... 12
Louisburg ........ 2
Louisburg.......... 12
Riverside .......... 9
Riverside .......... 9
Louisburg.......... 12
Riverside .......... 12
Riverside .......... 12
Louisburg.
Louisburg
Louisburg
Louisburg
Riverside .
Riverside .
Riverside .
Riverside .
Riverside .
Gold Sand
Riverside .
Riverside .
Riverside .
1541a
Government Trial Exhibit 16
Name op P upil School Grade
Fannie Monroe .................... ..... Riverside .... ...... 11
Helen H. Perry .... ............... ...... Gethsemane ....... 12
Alcer Mae Satterwhite ......— Bunn ............ ...... 12
The applications for assignment under the “ Free Choice”
plan for the following named pupils were found to be in
valid, the applications not having been made by the parents
or legal guardian of such pupils. The pupils were assigned
as follows:
Name op Pupil School Grade
Cornel Davis ................... .... Riverside ..... ...... 12
Michael Scarboro ....... .... Perry’s ......... ...... 9
Applications for assignment under the “ Free Choice” plan
had been received for the following named pupils, but said
pupils were not promoted to a grade covered by the “ Free
Choice” plan and therefore, were assigned as follow s:
Name op Pupil School Grade
Eddie Thomas Jones ............... Riverside ._........ . 1
Brenda Delois Perry .......... . Riverside .......... . 11
B. Pupils Initially E nrolled in the F irst Grade
for the F irst T ime
All pupils registered in the registration periods in the
spring of 1965 and on 23 August 1965 by parents or legal
guardian for initial enrollment in the first grade of
schools in the Franklin County Administrative Unit
were assigned to the first grades of the schools pre-
feired by such parents or legal guardian.
1542a
C. Lateral Transfers
The Board having adopted the following criteria for
lateral transfers, applicable equally to all students with
out regard to race or color:
1. To take a course of study for which the pupil is
qualified and which is not available in the school the
pupil attended the previous year.
2. The pupil having moved to an attendance area other
than the attendance area of the school attended the
previous year.
Government Trial Exhibit 16
The following named pupils were assigned for the 1965-66
school year to the school and grade opposite his or her
name— the applications meeting the Board’s criteria:
Name of P upil School G r a d i
Brian Dale G upton................. - Louisburg ..... . 4
Carol Ann Goodwin ........ ....... - Louisburg ...... . . . 11
James Newell Edwards, Jr. ..... Gold Sand ...... ... 3
Alice Fay Edwards ............... .. Gold Sand ...... ... 6
Gilliam Gordon ........................ - Gold Sand ...... . . 5
Danny Keith G ord on ............. .. Gold Sand ...... 3
William Craig G ordon ........... .. Gold Sand ...... ... 7
Applications for lateral transfers of the following named
pupils did not meet the Board’s criteria, and such pupils
were assigned for the 1965-66 school year to the grade and
school opposite his or her name:
Name of P upil School G r a d e
Charlie Henry Jones, J r ......... .. Cedar Street - 7
Norine Arrington .................... .. Cedar Street .... 7
1543a
Government Trial Exhibit 16
N a m e o p P u p i l
Luther (reddle ....................
Marjie Lee Alston ............
Charles Dugles Grill ..........
James Marvin Gill ............
Martha Delois Gill ............
Barbara Bernadette Perry
Harry Branch ....................
Lula Bell M cK night..........
June Arthur Edgerton ....
Eddie Lee Edgerton ........
Regena Oscelva Woodson .
Vincent Chico Baker ........
Robert Donald Baker .........
Patricia Kay Gill ..... .........
Bertha Mae Engram
Paul Clide Engrain II ......
Lonza Dunn, Jr............ .......
Veronica Mae Hawkins ....
Carrie C. McKnight .......... .
Nathaniel McKnight, Jr. ....
Janice Paulette Harris ....
Audrey Faye Harris ........
Bonnie Rae H a rris .............
Virgil Steven Williams .....
Connie Lafaye Jones .........
Ernestine Hicks
Bertine Hicks
Harold Douglas Coppedge
Carolyn N. Jones
Annie Pearl Macon ........ .
Mary Phyllis A lle n .............
Jesse Lemon Driver
Gwendolyn Elaine Kelley ..
School Grade
Riverside ........... 8
Riverside ........... 9
Riverside ............ 10
Riverside ........... 5
Riverside ........... 10
Riverside ............ 11
Riverside .......... 8
Riverside ........... 10
Riverside ........... 5
Riverside ............ 7
Riverside .......... 6
Riverside ............ 7
Riverside ...... 11
Riverside ........... 11
Riverside .......... 11
Riverside ........... 8
Riverside ........... 8
Riverside ........... 10
Riverside ........... 8
Riverside ........... 7
Gethsemane ..... 5
Gethsemane ___ 6
Gethsemane ___ 10
Mapleville ........ 3
Riverside ..... 5
Riverside ........... 7
Riverside ........... 7
Perry’s ............... 10
Riverside ........... 9
Riverside ........ 11
Riverside ........... 11
Gethsemane ..... 3
Gethsemane ..... 5
1544a
Name of P upil School
Booker T. Driver, Jr................ Gethsemane
Jacquelyn Rose Driver ........... Gethsemane
Frances Norene Driver ........... Gethsemane
Margie Jeanette K e lle y ........... Gethsemane
Carl Lee Satterwhite ............... Gethsemane
Jean Carol Satterwhite ........... Gethsemane
Government Trial Exhibit 16
1545a
Government Trial Exhibit 20
(Letter dated June 3, 1966)
[seal]
Department of H ealth, Education, and W elfare
OFFICE OF EDUCATION
Washington, D.C. 20202
June 3, 1966
Mr. Warren W. Smith
Superintendent
Franklin County Administrative Unit
Louisburg, North Carolina
Dear Mr. Smith:
This Office has reviewed the report of planned staff assign
ments for 1966-67 submitted for your school system under
Section 181.18(b) of the 1966 school desegregation guide
lines. This report indicates that for the 1966-67 school
year, your school system will make some progress beyond
what was accomplished for the 1965-66 school year in the
desegregation of professional staff. It does appear, how
ever, on the basis of the report you have submitted, that
the steps you propose in staff desegregation are not ade
quate in your situation to accomplish the purposes of
Title VI. The Civil Eights Act, as well as recent deci
sions of the court under the 14th Amendment to the Con
stitution, require that segregated teaching staffs be de
segregated.
Secretary Gardner stated in his letter of April 9 to Mem
bers of Congress and Governors, a copy of which was
sent to you, that the revised guidelines required that a
reasonable beginning be made and that reasonable progress
be achieved beyond what was achieved last year.
As we have explained in the past few months in meetings
with school officials, a reasonable beginning might in some
1546a
cases be achieved by the assignment of at least one staff
member to each school in the district on a desegregated
basis. The guidelines, however, do allow for flexibility as
to how a district might undertake faculty desegregation.
I f an alternative pattern is thought to be more practical,
it ought, nevertheless, to be feasible to assign roughly
that same number of teachers to one or more schools on
a desegregated basis, but not necessarily to all schools in
the district. The enclosed material on teacher desegrega
tion may be helpful to your school board in planning
additonal staff desegregation.
Please indicate as promptly as possible the additional steps
you will take to achieve significant progress in the deseg
regation of your system’s teachers when school opens
next fall. You should also send us any information con
cerning special problems in your district which would he
useful in evaluating the additional steps you propose
for teacher desegregation in your school system.
This Office will make every effort to assist your school
system to comply voluntarily with the requirements of
Title V I of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. School districts
have found that teacher desegregation can be carried out
most successfully where superintendents and school board
members give students, teachers, and the entire commu
nity resourceful and determined leadership. Our staff
stands ready to assist you and your board in this task in
any way we can. May I suggest that you address all com
munication on this matter to Mr. David S. Seeley, Assistant
Commissioner, Equal Educational Opportunities Program.
Sincerely yours,
Harold Howe II
H.S. Commissioner o f Education
Government Trial Exhibit 20
1547a
(Assurance of Compliance With the Revised Statement
of Policies for School Desegregation Plans Under
Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964)
Franklin County Board of Education (hereinafter called
(Name of Applicant)
the “Applicant” )
HEREBY AGREES TH AT it will comply with all require
ments in the Revised Statement of Policies for School
Desegregation Plans under Title Y I of the Civil Rights
Act of 1964, issued by the U.S. Commissioner of Educa
tion (hereinafter called the “ Commissioner” ), March, 1966
(45 CFR Part 181), which are applicable to plans of the
same type as the Applicant’s voluntary plan for the de
segregation of its school system. The Applicant also
agrees that it will comply with any amendment of such
Revised Statement, unless after the publication of any
such amendment the Applicant shall notify the Commis
sioner that it does not intend to operate a voluntary plan
for desegregation in accordance with such an amendment.
If any real property or structure thereon is provided or
improved with the aid of Federal financial assistance ex
tended to the Applicant in reliance on this assurance, this
assurance shall obligate the Applicant, or in the case of
any transfer of such property, any transferee, for the
period during which the real property or structure is used
for the purpose for which the Federal financial assistance
is extended or for another purpose involving the provi
sion of similar services or benefits. I f any personal prop
erty is so provided, this assurance shall obligate the
Applicant for the period during which it retains owner
ship or possession of the property. In all other cases of
Government Trial Exhibit 22
1548a
extension of Federal financial assistance in reliance on
this assurance, this assurance shall obligate the Applicant
for the period during which the Federal financial assistance
is extended to it.
The Applicant has adopted and is implementing a voluntary
plan for desegregation of its school system based on
Freedom of Choice
(specify whether freedom of choice, geographic attendance
zones, a combination of both of the foregoing, or other
type of plan).
Applicant should check the applicable box below:
JX] Such plan was accepted by the Commissioner prior to
the submission of this form and is hereby modified to the
extent necessary to comply with the applicable require
ments of the Revised Statement of Policies for School
Desegregation Plans Under Title V I of the Civil Rights
Act o f 1964 (45 CFR Part 181).
or
□ Such plan is submitted herewith.
THIS ASSURANCE is given in consideration of and for
the purpose of obtaining any and all Federal grants, loans,
contracts, property, discounts or other Federal financial
assistance conditioned upon the acceptance by the Com
missioner of a Voluntary Plan for Desegregation if such
assistance is extended after the date hereof to the Appli
cant, directly or through an intervening State agency,
including installment payments after such date on account
of applications for Federal financial assistance which were
approved before such date. The Applicant recognizes an
agrees that such Federal financial assistance will he ex
tended in reliance on the representations and agreements
Government Trial Exhibit 22
1549a
made in this assurance, and that the United States or the
State agency through which Federal financial assistance
is extended, jointly or severally shall have the right to
seek judicial enforcement of this assurance. This assur
ance is binding on the Applicant, its successors, transferees,
and assignees, and the person or persons whose signa
tures appear below are authorized to sign this assurance
on behalf of the Applicant.
Dated March 30, 1966
Franklin County, North Carolina
(County and State in which Applicant is located)
Franklin County Board of Education
Box 6
Louisburg, North Carolina
(Applicant’s mailing address)
Franklin County Board of Education
(Applicant)
Mrs. T. H. Dickens
(President, Chairman of Board, or
comparable authorized official)
I f any grades are covered by freedom
of choice for the 1966-67 school year,
state grades so covered: 1 - 1 2 and
choice period dates: 4-4-66 to 5-4-66
State grades covered by any other
type o f plan for 1966-67: ...................
Specify type of plan: .......................
Government Trial Exhibit 22
1550a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of
Sidney W. Manley of July 26, 1966
(Letter from Mr. Manley to Mr. Smith)
June 3, 1965
Mr. Smith,
I have decided to not tranfer my son Jessie 0 Manley
to Lonisburg High. I would rathie him to remain at
River Side Union School
Thank you.
Mrs. Virginia Manley
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of
Margaret Crudup of July 27, 1966
(Letter Signed by Mrs. Annie Crudup Concerning
Withdrawal of Application)
6-10-65
I wold like to withdraw my daughters application to
attend Youngsville High School & be re-assigned to River
Side in Louisburg.
M rs A n n ie Crudup
1551a
To: Frank Schwelb, Attorney
Civil Eights Division
U.S. Department o f Justice
From: William L. Stormer, Assistant Chief
School Construction Section
Division of School Assistance
U.S. Office of Education
Subject: Examination of School Facilities and
Related Materials of the Franklin County
School District, Louisburg, North Carolina.
Survey conducted May 10 and 11, 1967.
I. In accordance with your request, all known school
plants currently in use in Franklin County were
visited on the above dates in the company o f:
A. Richard R. Coldberg, Federal Bureau of Investi
gation, U.S. Department of Justice
B. Willis R. Collie, Attendance Counselor, Franklin
County School District,
C. At the respective school plants, the principal
and/or the custodian II.
II. School plants visited in alphabetical order were:
(Note: Because admission to the school plants was
not possible during school hours, all sites were
viewed from an automobile in the morning of May
10, 1967)
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
William L. Stormer o f May 19, 1967
Estimated1
D a te S ch ool P lan t G rades
In stru ction a l
B oom s
E n rollm en t
1967-68 O ptim um
C a p a city
R easonable E m erg en cy
5/10/67 Bunn 1-12 29 702 542 681 824
5/11/67 Cedar
Street
1-7 4* 75 80 100 120
5/10/67 E. Best
Elem.
1-6 32 132 120 150 180
5/10/67 E. Best
High
7-12 10 175 184 236 288
5/10/67 Epsom 1-12 16 225 294 376 458
5/11/67 Gethsemane 1-122 223 621 426 535 644
5/10/67 Gold Sand 1-12 17 342 322 406 490
5/11/67 Louisburg 1-12 30 694 640 790 980
5/10/67 Perry’s 1-122 273 766 506 647 784
5/11/67 Riverside 1-122 503 1401 962 1217 1464
5/11/67 Youngsville
Elem.
1-82 63 143 110 140 170
5/11/67 Youngsville 1-12 17 299 316 401 486
Total —12— 234 5575 4502 5679 6888
l r̂ l k e r ‘ from a statistical report furnished the Justice Department by the Franklin County School DistrictOne u.Ybgra,cLecL section -pex> school plant.
* Includes O.S portable classrooms used for regular and sp eeial instruction.
G
overnm
ent E
xh
ibit 2 to the D
eposition
of
W
illiam
L. S
torm
er of M
ay 19, 1967
1553a
III. Using with modifications, a commonly accepted
“Eating Farm for School Plants” 1, each school plant
was rated from field notes. These ratings are not
absolute, but are representative of general condi
tions observed in the school plant. Limitations af
fecting these ratings include:
A. Time allotted to examine each building.
B. The lack of general outline floor plans prior to
the visits.
C. The lack of knowledge of existing (and desired)
educational programs housed (or to be) in each
of the school plants.
D. Time did not permit more detailed rating of
individual buildings on the various school plant
sites.
E. Eatings assigned various physical characteristics
of the school plants are tempered by comparison
to school plants provided in the school system,
as well as, comparison to school plants observed
elsewhere.
IV. Differences observed (not considering overcrowding)
in the school plants are not striking in the overall
plant evaluations (Attachment I) and include the
following examples:
A. Louisburg school plant, as it should be having
been constructed most recently, stands above all
others in the community.
H. H. Linn (deceased) and F. J. McCormick, Teacher’s College, Uni
versity of New York.
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
William L. Stormer of May 19, 1967
1554a
B. When aspects, other than instructional space, are
excluded, Riverside provides the next best school
plant, particularly at the high school level.
C. Elementary school facilities at Bunn, E. Best,
Epsom, Gold Sand, Louisburg, portions of River
side and Youngsville (1-12) are in better ap
pearing brick exterior buildings than the frame
structures found at Gethsemane, Perry’s, Cedar
Street, and Youngsville Elementary. With some
exceptions, the classrooms are functionally com
parable.
D. Louisburg and Riverside home economics and
science lecture laboratories are more adequate
than others in secondary schools in the district.
Science classrooms at Gethsemane and Perry,
although below average, do provide make shift
pupil work stations which are not found any
where else except at Louisburg and Riverside.
E. Business education (mainly typing instruction)
throughout the school district are comparable.
Exceptions to this are :
1. Louisburg’s oversized business education room
provides student seating equal to typing sta
tions to facilitate other business education
instruction; and
|
2. Only Bunn and Louisburg have office machine
boys. VI.
VI. Overcrowding exists at five o f the twelve center.
when compared to “Reasonable” capacities.
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
William L. Stormer of May 19, 1967
1555a
A. These centers include Youngsville Elementary,
Bunn, Riverside, Gethsemane, and Perry’s school
plants (Attachment II).
B. Overcrowding would be even more critical at
Gethsemane, Riverside, Perry’s, and Youngsville
Elementary had not portable classrooms been
provided at these sites. The use of portable class
rooms to reduce overcrowding, destroys their ef
fectiveness to serve as tools for compensatory
education.
C. Portable classrooms are located at school plants
which have limited site acreage as compared to
the school enrollments. For example, Riverside
has 1/4 the site area as Louisburg, yet approxi
mately twice the enrollment.
D. Pupil/room ratios are further indication of over
crowding and are shown as Attachment III and
IY.
VII. Locations of School Plants
A. As evidenced by examining a map of school plant
locations reveals overlapping of areas served, if
only a two-mile radius for walking pupils is
considered. It would appear that greater over
lapping exists since these centers are served by
school buses. Examples of pairing are:
Gold Sand and Perry’s
Bunn and Gethsemane
Youngsville and Youngsville Elementary
Louisburg and Riverside and Cedar Street
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
William L. Stormer of May 19, 1967
1556a
B. Locations o f school plants and duplication of
grades housed contribute to:
1. Higher per pupil costs for less than adequate
educational programs, particularly at the sec
ondary school level.
Y H I. Possible Use of Existing Facilities Requires Fur
ther Study, However, the Following Should be Con
sidered :
A. Consolidation o f school centers to achieve enroll
ments permitting the offering of a comprehen
sive educational program.
B. Establishing school plant (and school) capacities
on a uniform bases throughout the school district
and reassign pupils in excess of these capacities
to less crowded centers (and schools).
C. In order to more easily accommodate temporary
facilities, locate portable classrooms at larger
sites.
D. When it is established which school plants are
to provide permanent secondary centers, upgrade
special classrooms used for home economics, sci
ence, vocational and industrial education, etc.
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
William L. Stormer of May 19, 1967
Attachm ent I
i
i i
h i
IY
Y
V I
V II
V I I I
I X
X
X I
X I I
SCHOOL PLANT EATING FORM— LINN— McCORMICK
(Over-all Impression of Plant) Franklin Co., N.C.
Site 100
Building Structure 150
Heating & Ventilating 50
Fire Protection 50
Artificial Illumination 25
Electric Services 25
Toilets & W ater Supply 50
Lockers & Storage 40
Classrooms 160
General Rooms 150
Administration 70
Special Rooms 130
1000
a§
-a02
h03TJ
H
•4-3COo>
m
W
■BOl
M
aom
01flc3
a01m
3a Ol ft Ol
ffl o H W H CD
53 49 51 51 54 53
94 93 91 91 91 94
26 26 26 26 26 27
28 23 27 27 27 31
8 4 4 4 4 8
11 2 11 11 11 11
29 26 29 29 29 29
22 3 12 22 17 18
84 77 84 84 84 84
76 12 46 76 88 84
18 0 20 24 24 30
18 0 0 18 18 18
467 305 401 463 473 487
7 12 10 9 4 2
SBm
01 01
a 01 2a02 arQ JJ1 ra• MCO mto tnto
2 '3 g
ShOl
>
aa aa
O
o
Ph £ tS
54 75 51 38 57 53
91 110 94 94 83 91
26 27 27 27 27 26
28 33 31 32 29 28
4 12 8 8 4 4
11 12 11 11 2 9
29 28 29 28 26 29
18 28 17 17 3 24
84 96 84 84 77 84
82 98 72 80 26 76
24 36 30 30 3 24
18 46 18 36 0 18
469 601 472 485 337 466
6 1 5 3 11 8Rank
G
overnm
ent E
xh
ibit 2 to the D
eposition
of
W
illiam
L. S
torm
er of M
ay 19, 1967
1558a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
William L. Stormer of May 19, 1967
R A N K O R D E R OE U T IL IZA T IO N
(W hen the M id-Point is Considered Reasonable Capacity)
T ota l P lan t P ercen t E lem en ta ry P ercen t H igh School Pena j
Epsom 59.8 Youngsville 81.3 Cedar St. 32.! |
Ed. Best H igh 74.2 Louisburg 84.5 Epsom 3!i
Youngsville 74.6 Ed. Best Elem. 88.0 Youngsville 71
Cedar St. 75.01 Cedar St. 89.31 Gold Sand 711
Gold Sand 84.2 Bunn 97.3 Ed. Best H.S. 7(1
Louisburg 84.5 Riverside 105.75 Youngsville Elem 1
Ed. Best Elem. 88.0 Perry ’s 106.5 Louisburg 913
Youngsville Elem. 102.1 Gold Sand 106.7 Gethsemane 107,71
Bunn 103.1 Epsom 116.0 Bunn 1101
Riverside 115.19 Youngsville Elem. 118.72 Riverside me
Gethsemane 116.12 Gethsemane 124.0 Perry’s 126,i1
P erry ’s 118.4*
1 Portables percent o f Plant Utilization and overcrowding, if any, wouM
should portable classrooms not be considered as available fo r normal class
1559a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
William L. Stormer of May 19, 1967
Attachment III
RAN K O RD ER OE P U P IL /R O O M R A T IO 1967-68
Epsom 14.1 Youngsville 20.3 Cedar St. 8.0
E. Best H.S. 17.5 Louisburg 21.1 Epsom 9.1
Youngsville 17.6 E. Best Elem. 22.0 Youngsville 16.1
Cedar St. 18.8 Cedar St. 22.3 Gold Sand 16.5
E. Best Elem. 22.0 Bunn 24.3 E. Best H.S. 17.5
Gold Sand 22.8 Co. A v e r a g e 25.6 Youngsville Elem. 22.5
Louisburg 23.1 Riverside 26.4 Co. A v e r a g e 22.6
Youngsville Elem. 23.8 Gold Sand 26.7 Bunn 24.1
Co. A v e r a g e 23.8 Perry’s 27.8 Louisburg 25.4
Bunn 24.2 Epsom 29.7 Gethsemane 25.5
Riverside 28.0 Youngsville Elem. 29.7 Perry ’s 29.9
Gethsemane 28.2 Gethsemane 32.8 Riverside 30.3
Perry’s 28.4
1560a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
William L. Stormer of May 19, 1967
Attachment II
F R A N K L IN COUNTY, N O R T H C A R O L IN A
P r o je c te d
1967-68
E n rollm en t R oom s P u pils/R oom
Bunn 702 29 24.2 103,1
Elem. 365 15 24.3 97.3
H .S. 337 14 24.1 110.1
Cedar Street 75 4 18.8 75.0
Elem. (16) 67 3 22.3 89.3
H .S. (7 ) 8 1 8.0 32.0
E d. Best Elem. 132 6 22.0 88.0
Elem. 132 6 22.0 88.0
H .S . — — — -
E . Best H .S. 175 10 17.5 74.2 _
Elem. — — — —
H .S. 175 10 17.5 74.2
Epsom 225 16 14.11
Elem. 116 4 29.0 116.0
H .S . 109 12 9.11 39.51
Gethsemane 621 22 28.2 116.1__
Ungraded 13 1 13.0 86.7
Elem. 328 10 32.8 124.0
H .S . 280 11 25.5 107.7
Gold Sand 342 17 22.8 _ J 6 1 _
Elem. 160 6 26.7 106.7
H .S. 182 11 16.5 7U —-
Louisburg 694 30 23.1 8 7 8 ^
Elem. 338 16 21.1 84.5
H .S. 356 14 25.4 913___
1 Includes two regular classrooms used fo r maintenance and custodial storage d
audio-visual aids.
1561a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
William L. Stormer of May 19, 1967
Attachment I Y (continued)
P ro jec ted U tilization @
1967-68 M id -P oin t
Enrollm ent B oom s P u pils/R oom %
Perry’s 766 27 28.4 118.4
Ungraded 15 1 15.0 100.0
Elem, 362 13 27.8 106.5
H.S. 389 13 29.9 126.7
Eiverside 1401 50 28.0 115.1
Ungraded 16 1 16.0 106.7
Elem. 687 26 26.4 105.7
H.S. 698 23 30.3 126.4
Yonngsville Elem. 143 62 23.8 102.1
Ungraded 13 1 13.0 86.7
Elem. 85 3 29.7 118.7
H.S. (7-8) 45 2 22.5 90.0
Youngsville 299 17 17.6 74.6
Elem. 122 6 20.3 81.3
H.S. 177 11 16.1 70.5
Excludes stage use as makeshift classroom.
Total
Ungraded
Elem.
Second.
5575
57
2762
2756
234
4
108
122
23.8
14.3
25.6
22.6
FRANKLIN COUNTY, NORTH CAROLINA
Sch. Plant Decade Fire (;
and Bldg._______ Constr. Walls Framing Floors Bating Beat It
Bunn
1562a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
William L. Stormer of May 19, 1967
High School 1920 Brick
Intermediate 1930 Brick
Primary 1950 Brick
Library 1920 (?) Frame
Vo. Ag. 1950 C. Blk.
Gym 1950 C. Blk.
Cafeteria 1960 Brick
Boiler 1920 Brick
Cedar Street
Main 1930 Frame
Portable 1967 Metal
E. Best Elem. 1920 Brick
E. Best H.S.
High School 1920 Brick
Yo. Ag. 1930 (?) Frame
Gym 1960 (?) Brick
Boiler 1920 Brick
Wood Wood Combus
tible
Steam 1
Wood Wood Combus
tible
Steam 1
Wood Wood Combus
tible
H20 i
Wood Wood Combus
tible
Oil 1
Space
Heating
C. Blk. Cone. Fire
Resist
Oil i
Space
Heating
C. Blk. Cone. Fire
Resist
Hot -
Air
C. Blk. Cone. Fire
Resist
Hot -
Air
Wood Cone.
and
Wood
Combust. Steam 2
h2o
1
Wood Wood Combust. Hot 3
Air
Wood Wood Semi FR Hot K
Air
Wood Wood Combust. Steam 3
It
Wood Wood Combust. Steam *
Wood Cone,
and dirt
Combust. Coal !
Stove
C. Blk. Cone. Fire
Resist
Hot '
Air
Wood Wood
Cone.
Combust. Steam '
--X
-. -
-
--
3Z
Z-
FRANKLIN COUNTY, NORTH CAROLINA
(continued)
1563a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
William L. Stormer of May 19, 1967
fe M. Plant Decade
mi Bldg. Comtr. Walls Framing
1 ipsom
High School
' and Elementary
1920 Brick Wood
, Addition 1930 Brick Wood
Sym 1940 C. Blk. C. Blk.
Cafeteria 1920 Brick Wood and
Boiler
Masonry
Vo. Ag. 1930 Frame Wood
Sitiesmne
High School 1950 Brick C. Blk.
Portables 1967 Metal Wood
(kitchen) 1967 Metal Wood
(library) 1967 Metal Wood
Elementary 1920 Wood Wood
Gym-and-
Cafeteria
1950 C. Blk. C. Blk.
Sand
%k School
Elementary
1920
1950
Brick
Brick
Wood
C. Blk.
Gym 1950 C. Blk. C. Blk.
Vo. Ag. 1940 Wood Wood
Fire Class
Floors Fating Ileat Booms
16
Wood Combust. Steam 10
Wood Combust. Steam 4
Cone. Fire Hot —
Resist Air
Wood and
Masonry
Combust. Steam —
Wood Combust. Oil 2
Space
Heater
22
Cone. Fire
Resist
Steam 9
Wood Semi FR Hot 2(a /c)
Air
Wood Semi FR Hot — (a/c)
Air
Wood Semi FR Hot — (a/c)
Air
Wood Combust. Hot
h 2o 11
Cone. Fire Hot —
Resist Air
17
Wood Combust. Steam 11
Cone. Fire
Resist
Steam 4
Cone. Fire Hot —
Resist Air
Cone. Combust. Oil 2
Space (?)
1564a
FRANKLIN COUNTY, NORTH CAROLINA
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
William L. Stormer of May 19, 1967
Sch. Plant
and Bldg.
Decade
Corntr. Walls
Cafeteria 1960 Brick
Boiler 1920 Brick
Louisburg
High School 1960 Brick
Elementary 1960 Brick
Gym 1960 Brick
Cafeteria 1960 Brick
and Boiler 1960 Brick
Perry’s
High School 1940 Brick
Elementary 1940 Frame
Elementary 1950 C. Blk.
Portable 1967 Metal
Portable 1960 Metal
(kitchen)
T & I 1940 Frame
Gym-and- 1960 C. Blk.
Cafeteria
(Dining)
(continued)
Fire 4
Framing Floors Bating Heat its-
C. Blk. Cone. Fire
Resist
Steam(l)- ^
Wood Wood
and
Combust. Steam -
Cone.
1
C. Blk. Cone. Fire
Resist
Steam li
C. Blk. Cone. Fire
Resist
Steam 1
C. Blk. Cone. Fire
Resist
Steam
C. Blk. Cone. Fire
Resist
Steam 1
C. Blk. Cone. Fire
Resist
Steam -
S
C. Blk. Cone. Fire
Resist
Steam 1
Wood Wood Combust. Steam 1
C. Blk. Cone. Fire
Resist
Steam *
Wood Wood Semi FR Hot *1
Air
Wood Wood Semi FR Hot '1
Air
Wood Wood Combust. Coal 1
Stove
C. Blk. Cone. Fire
Resist
Hot '
Air
FRANKLIN COUNTY, NORTH CAROLINA
(continued)
1565a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
William L. Stormer of May 19, 1967
M. Plant|
mi Bldg.
Decade
Constr. W alls Framing
mmiie
High School 1950 Brick C. Blk.
Elementary 1960 Brick C. Blk.
Elementary 1940 Brick Wood
T & I 1950 C. Blk. C. Blk.
Gym-and- 1940 C. Blk. C. Blk.
Cafeteria 1960 Brick C. Blk.
Vo. Ag. 1930 Frame Wood
Boiler 1950 Brick C. Blk.
Portables 1967 Metal Wood
Young sville
Elementary
Main 1920 Frame Wood
Portables 1967 Metal Wood
(kitchen) 1967 Metal Wood
Youngsville
Main
Gym and
Cafeteria
1920 Brick Wood
1950 Brick C. Blk.
Vo. Ag. 1930 Frame Wood
Floors
Fire
Bating Heat
Class
Booms
50
Cone. Fire
Resist
Steam 10
Cone. Fire
Resist
Steam 12
Wood Combust. Hot
H 20
5
Cone. Fire
Resist
Air
Space
Heat
2
Wood &
Cone.
Semi FR Mixed 8
Cone. Fire
Resist
Steam —
Wood Combust. Coal
Stoves
4
Cone. Fire
Resist
Steam —
Wood Semi FR Hot
Air 9(a /c)
6
Wood Combust. Oil
Space
Heaters
4
Wood Semi FR Hot
Air
2(a/e)
Wood Semi FR Hot
Air
— (a/c)
17
Wood Combust. Steam 15
Cone. Fire
Resist
Steam —
Cone. Combust. Coal
Stoves
2
GRADES 1 THROUGH 8
1566a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
William L. Stormer of May 19, 1967
Teachers Salaries
1965-66
Enrollment
1966-67 Bank
$/Pupil
Col. 2 + 3 ini
(1) (2) ( 3 ) ( 4 ) ( 5 ) ffi
Bunn $ 88,427.90 487 9 $181.58 l
Cedar Street1 21,254.00 83 1 256.07 1
Ed. Best2 32,680.25 143 3 228.53 i
Epsom 24,217.50 159 4 152.38 11
Gethsemane 80,100.25 477 8 167.93 9
Gold Sand 40,801.75 233 6 175.11 !
Louisburg 87,995.25 476 7 186.96 9
Perry’s 108,039.10 530 10 203.85 5
Riverside 153,152.25 954 11 162.84 11
Youngs ville 45,788.75 141 2 239.73 2
Youngsville Elem. 38,687.75 164 5 235.90 3
1 Grades 1-7
2 Grades 1-6
GRADES 9 THROUGH 12
Teachers Salaries Enrollment $/Pupil
1965-66 1966-67 Bank Col. 2 + 3 Ed
(1) (2) ( 3 ) ( 4 ) ( 5)
Bunn $54,223.50 288 8 $188.31 9
Ed. Best H.S.1 55,693.00 178 5 312.88 3
Epsom 25,121.50 72 1 350.30 1
Gethsemane 39,141.00 154 4 254.16 0
Gold Sand 31,411.25 98 2 320.52 6
Louisburg 57,874.50 206 6 280.94 i
Perry’s 49,221.25 213 7 231.09 1
Riverside 88,265.25 375 1 235.91 K
Youngsville 30,834.00 119 3 259.28
1 Grades 7-12; all others, grades 9-12.
1567a
Government Trial Exhibit 1
Excerpts from Newspaper Articles in the Franklin Times,
the Raleigh News and Observer, and the Charlotte Observer
(Articles are arranged chronologically.)
Cross Burned
A burning cross is shown above, on the Courthouse
Square in Louisburg, where it was discovered last Thurs
day night at 10 p.m. It was reported that crosses were
burned in 55 counties that night. A 12 ft. cross was found
in the old ball field in Centerville Monday morning, but it
had not been burned. It reportedly had a large letter “ K ”
painted on it in red.
— Times Staff Photo.
T he F b a n k l in T im es
Louisburg, N. C.
6/2/64
1568a
5 Applications Withdrawn:
BOARD REJECTS BIDS FOR REASSIGNMENTS
The Franklin County Board of Education disapproved
applications for reassignment of five Negro children to
the all white Louisburg High School and three white
children seeking reassignment from Youngsville to Bunn
School, in a special meeting last Friday morning.
Three of the eight original Negro applications had been
withdrawn prior to the meeting.
Two more were withdrawn on Saturday, after being
turned down by the Board. The father of Hunter and
Charlie Mayo, named on the applications as Rockwells,
withdrew the requests. The applications had been filed
by Christine Rodwell, a widow, with whom the Mayo
children had been living. Their father lives in Newport
News, Ya.
St. Clarence Arrington and his wife, Susie C., withdrew
the applications for th e ir three children to be reassigned
from Riverside to the Louisburg School earlier in the week,
Booster White, Youngsville tobacconist, and his wife
Ruth, filed applications for their three children to be
reassigned from the Youngsville High School to the Bunn
High School. The White children are: Randolph Hewitt,
13, 7th grade; Donnie Michael, 17, 9th grade; and Anthony
Dale, 1st grade. The White’s applications were also dis
approved.
The Whites sought reassignment on the basis of “Better
opportunities and more chance for advancement” at the
Bunn school.
The requests for reassignment of the Negro children,
which were denied, concerned the children of Irene and
Lenwood Arrington of Louisburg Rt. 3 and Christine Bod
well of Henderson Rt. 2. The Arringtons applied for trans
fer of three, Lenwood, Jr.; Joe Bennie; and Norine.
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
Irene Arrington of July 27, 1966
1569a
St. Clarence and Susie Arrington withdrew applications
for three children, Raymond Earl, Larry Donnell and Fred
Truman. Arrington is reported to have said he did not
understand what he was signing, and added that he thought
it was something to do with the Riverside Principal, Carl
Harris.
All of the requests for reassignment of the Negro chil
dren to the all white Louisburg School were notarized by
John P. Mangrum, Franklinton Negro minister who re
cently ran third in the race for a seat on the Board of
County Commissioners from the Youngsville-Frahklinton
District.
St. Clarence Arrington is reported to have said that he
signed the applications at his home and not before the
Notary. The law requires that a notary public witness
the signing of documents to which he sets his seal.
All of the Negro applicants gave as their reason for
seeking reassignment for their children “ That Louisburg
High has better facilities and is nearer.” No reason was
made public as to why any of the requests were disap
proved. Warren W. Smith, Superintendent of Schools,
said he had no comment on the Board’s action.
The North Carolina Pupil Assignment Law requires that
in cases of disapproval of requests for reassignment,
signers of the applications be notified by registered mail
immediately. The applicants may seek an appeal hearing
from the Board in cases of disapproval, according to the
law.
These were the first applications for Negroes to attend
white schools to he filed here. Applications for reassign
ment were attempted two years ago but arrived at the
Board office improperly filled out and were not returned.
T he F bahklot T imes
6/23/64
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
Irene Arrington of July 27, 1966
1570a
SCHOOL BOARD ADOPTS CONSOLIDATION PLAN
The Citizens Committee for the Study of Consolidation
of Franklin Schools made its final report to the County
Board of Education Monday and recommended that the
Board adopt the Long Range Planning of the School
Survey made by the State Department of Public Instruc
tion last December.
The plan calls for five new and complete school plants,
three secondary school plants (grades 7-12) with a capacity
of 650-700 and two elementary school plants (grades 1-6) of
approximately 12 to 15 classrooms plus a lunchroom, multi
purpose, library and administrative spaces for each.
The three high schools called for in the plans would
accommodate students now attending Perry’s School and
part of Riverside in one plant; students now attending
Gethsemane and part of Riverside in a second plant and
the third plant would accommodate students now attending
Bunn and Edward Best schools.
T he F ranklin Times
10/6/64
Government Trial Exhibit 15
1571a
THE KLAN RALLY
Saturday, for some, was a big day. The Klu Klux Klan
held a rally here. For others, as one expressed it, it was a
day of embarrassment. Some rathered the Klan had not
come.
Franklin County is made up of fine people. Like other
areas, some favor one thing, some another. The Klan has
been strong in this county for many years. By the nature
of the organization, this has been kept secret. It will un
doubtedly gain strength now following the rally.
The secrecy of the Klan may well be one of its appealing
points for some. And perhaps, days gone by, there was
some reason for this secrecy. But not today. If the mem
bers are proud of their organization and what it stands
for, as they say they are, they should not need to hide it.
On the other hand, if they want to keep secret their work,
they cannot expect to find support from the general public.
Over 600 people, including a number of children, at
tended the local rally to learn of the Klan work. These
may or may not be more enlightened now than before.
We could sense a dedication to the principles of the or
ganization by the guards and members. This is their
privilege. They were critical of news media for their
reporting. Yet, while they talked of Freedom of the Press,
guards stood inches away from two news reporters, to
make sure that this Freedom was not exercised at a
Klan rally.
This brings up a grave question in the minds of many.
How can Freedom stand the protection of secrecy! How
do the thousands, who do not attend these rallies, learn
of the Klan, if newsmen are not allowed to tell the story.
Government Trial Exhibit 3
1572a
I f the Klan is to have a place in America consistent
with what they desire, they must bnild a better public
image. To do this, they will need the Free Press.
T he F ranklin Times
10/20/64
Government Trial Exhibit 3
1573a
FRANKLINTON PARADE STILL ON,
THREATENED CHAIRMAN RESIGNS
The Franklinton Christmas Parade will be presented to
morrow night as scheduled, according to Police Chief Leo
Edwards. John Echols, Franklinton merchant and parade
chairman, announced his resignation Monday after receiv
ing a telephone call from an unidentified man, using veiled
threats toward Echols if Negroes were not placed at the
rear of the parade.
Echols’ business establishment, located in a shopping
center on the Franklinton by-pass, had a plate glass window
broken by gunshot sometime Saturday night or Sunday
morning. The telephone call followed Sunday, first to his
home and when his wife informed the caller that Echols
was at his place of business, the caller phoned Echols in
his store.
Echols, who has been parade chairman for the past
three years and responsible for some outstanding parades,
said, “I have resigned. I am 100% out of the parade. I
have nothing more to do with it and I want this fact
published.” He also withdrew his float from the parade.
Chief Edwards said that everyone participating in the
parade would now be co-chairmen and that at noon Monday
over half had been contacted and all agreed that the parade
should go on as planned. Edwards stressed the fact that
no changes in the lineup of the parade would be made.
There are 15 Negro units, scheduled to appear in the parade
according to Echols, all interspersed in the parade order.
The State Bureau of Investigation is assisting local
officers with the investigation of the phone call and the
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of
George V. Echols o f July 26, 1966
1574a
breaking of Echols’ window. The parade is scheduled for
Wednesday night at 7 p.m. with Thursday night set as the
rain date.
The Franklinton American Legion will marshal the
parade. Governor Terry Sanford, who alerted the State
Highway Patrol for the Louisburg parade on Monday
afternoon is expected to do the same for the Franklinton
parade.
Chief Leo Edwards said Monday, “We don’t expect any
trouble.” Edwards indicated that his department would
be prepared for trouble should any arise.
T he F ranklin Times
12/8/64
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of
George V. Echols of July 26, 1966
1575a
FEDERAL, STATE AND LOCAL OFFICERS
INVESTIGATING SHOOTING AT MOULTON
Unknown assailants sent a hail of shotgun and rifle fire
into two Negro homes near Moulton late Monday night,
without injury to any of the occupants. One of the homes
had been fired at about two weeks ago in the same manner.
The family of Lenwood Arrington escaped injury in both
incidents and no one was injured in Monday’s incident in
volving the Sandy Jones residence. Both families live a
few yards apart, a short distance from a paved rural road
which runs from Highway 401 to Moulton.
Franklin County Sheriff’s Department is investigating
the May 28 incident and the one taking place Monday night
around 11 p.m. The Federal Bureau of Investigation has
two agents in the area investigating the latest shooting.
One stated they were here to determine if the civil rights
of the two negro families had been violated. Both families
have made application for their children to attend the
white Louisburg High School next fall.
An automobile parked in the Arrington yard received
considerable damage, as the gunfire tore out the rear win
dow, punctured the trunk, fenders and gas tank. Shotgun
pellet marks are visible at the right of the front entrance
of the Arrington home and rifle bullet holes were seen
just to the left of the door. Several windows were broken.
Bullets entered a side window of the Jones home and
tiaveled through a bedroom coming out a window at the
back of the house.
The Sheriff’s Department called in the State Bureau of
investigation to assist in the case. This was before the
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition o f
Irene Arrington o f July 27, 1966
1576a
FBI entered the case. Charles McClain, Field Secretary
of the NAACP, was in the area Monday, also investigating
the incidents. It was reported that he would request the
state to furnish protection for the two families involved.
It was learned that the Arrington family had received
several telephone threats, the contents of which were not
stated. A reliable source reported that it was believed that
race was not involved, as such, in the case. The informant
said nothing had been uncovered to indicate that the shoot
ing was anything more than an isolated incident.
Officials are closemouthed about any clues or evidence
they might have in the case and say only that they are
continuing their investigation.
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of
Irene Arrington of July 27, 1966
T he F ranklin Times
6/17/65
1577a
KLAN HOLDS BALLY, STREET W ALK HERE
Around eighty members of the Ku Klux Klan held a
street-walk here Saturday afternoon. The group came to
Louisburg following a similar walk in Warrenton earlier.
The caravan from Warrenton contained around 35 vehicles.
The parades proceeded a Klan rally near Warrenton
Saturday night and followed a rally held about 3 miles
east of Louisburg Friday night. The Friday night rally
here, attended by what one local officer estimated at 2000
persons, was held in a vacant field where a similar rally
was staged last October 16.
A Louisburg College student, Bill Jones, 21, son of a
Warrenton newspaper publisher was roughed-up Saturday
afternoon as Klansmen were walking to a local parking lot,
where they had assembled for the street walk. Jones said
he was grabbed by two security guards and surrounded
by robed Klansmen who took four rolls of film from him.
They reportedly took his camera but returned it upon
Jones’ assurance he would destroy the film, which he said
he did.
Government Trial Exhibit 6
T he F ranklin T imes
7/27/65
1578a
ATTACK ON PHOTOGRAPHER BRINGS DEMAND
FOR INVESTIGATION BY RALEIGH NEWSPAPEE
The incident involving a yonng Warrenton photographer
and members of the Ku Klux Klan during the Klan street
walk here Saturday has brought demands from a Raleigh
newspaper for an investigation by the Governor’s office,
The Raleigh Times, in an editorial in Monday’s issue
asked for a full investigation by SBI agents and an as
surance by Governor Dan K. Moore that the “the majesty
of the law will be upheld” in North Carolina.
The incident involved the roughing-up of Bill Jones, 21,
son of a Warrenton newspaper publisher and a student at
Louisburg College. Jones had covered the Klan walk in
Warrenton earlier Saturday and had traveled to Louisburg
to continue his coverage.
According to Jones he had photographed the Klansmen
during their walk here and snapped a picture of some of
the Klansmen arguing with negroes on Nash Street across
from the Franklin County courthouse. At this point, two
security guards grabbed the youth and as Jones puts it,
“Insisted that I go with them to the parking lot.”
The guards took Jones camera from him at this point
and Jones walked between them the two blocks to the
parking lot where he was reportedly roughed-up. On the
way Jones said he passed a Louisburg Policeman, later
identified as Ralph E. Lester. Jones said, and Lester
agreed, that the policeman overheard the Klan guard say,
“You can’t take my picture. It’s against the law.” J°nes
said, “I did not call to the policeman.” He did not explain
why he did not seek help.
Government Trial Exhibit 5
1579a
Lester, said he was directing traffic and while he over
heard the statement by the guard, he did not sense any
trouble since Jones was walking between the guards with
out them holding on to him. Lester also said that the
guard had the camera in his hand at the time.
Jones said that at the lot, a number of robed Klansmen
gathered around him, none in colored robes, indicating that
state Grand Dragon James R. Jones was not involved. He
said they asked for his film and he gave them one roll from
his pocket. The Klansmen then demanded that he empty
his pockets and he did, giving to the Klansmen three rolls
of film plus the one in the camera.
In the scuffle, Jones had his shirt torn in the front and
in the back. He later reported his hand was also injured.
He told a reporter right after the incident that he did not
wish to file a complaint with local police. “ I don’t want to
get anybody in trouble or start anything,” Jones is re
ported to have said.
When informed of the incident, Chief William Dement
of the Louisburg police said he had heard of the incident
hut that when Jones passed him, he did not mention it.
Dement later is reported as saying that he did not see the
torn shirt. A Times reporter saw the shirt and verified
that it was torn, but the reporter did not witness the
alleged incident.
There has been no indication by local authorities that
any investigation is to be held. Solicitor W. H. (Jack)
Taylor, quoted in the out-of-town papers as having said
he was on vacation and knew7 nothing of the happening
except what he read in the papers, has made no indication
that his office will conduct an investigation.
T he F ranklin T imes
7/27/65
Government Trial Exhibit 5
Photographer & Klansmen
W arrenton photographer B ill Jones is shown
above Saturday shortly before he was grabbed
Vy Klansmen and forced, to give Tip Kis film and
camera. Tlve incident has hro-aglit widespread
publicity to Louisburg and a demand by a Raleigh
newspaper for a full scale investigation. Jones
reportedly had his shirt torn and his hand in-
nured in the afray.
-------3?bioto Tt»y Kill
G
overnm
ent T
rial E
xh
ibit 5
1581a
LOCAL EDITORIAL COMMENT
Thursday, August 5, 1965
F rustration I s T h e W ord
Eight months ago the Franklin County Board of Educa
tion was told to adopt a plan of compliance to the Civil
Eights Act. Every educational unit in the country was
told to do the same. Under Title VI of the law, dealing
with schools, it appeared only an assurance that there
would be no discrimination in use of federal funds would
be necessary.
Many legal authorities still contend that this is all the
law demands. However, federal bureaucrats entered the
picture and there followed as many varied interpretations
as there were people in the Office of Education. What
seemingly was acceptable in January was strictly taboo
in February and so on.
Most local citizens oppose integration of the schools.
We do ourselves. We don’t believe it will work. But even
so, it is better to handle it on the local level than to have
it done for us by the courts.
Either way, frustration is certainly the word of the day
in all the schools in this area.
Government Trial Exhibit 7
T h e F r a n k l in T im es
8/5/65
1582a
CROSS BURNING
Sheriff Joseph W. Champion reported today, that his
department is investigating a cross-burning in the Edward
Best area sometime Monday night. The cross was located
about 75 yards from the home of Luther Coppedge, Et. 4,
Louisburg negro, beside a road leading to the Coppedge
home.
Sheriff Champion stated the cross was about six feet
high and four feet wide, made of small pine poles. He
said the burning took place sometime after 12:30 a.m.,
according to Coppedge.
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of
Reverend Luther Coppedge o f July 28, 1966
T h e F r a n k l in T imes
8/17/65
1583a
CROSS BURNED AT TIMES OFFICE
Government Trial Exhibit 8
A burning cross was discovered around 1 a.m. this morn
ing on the lawn of The Franklin Times building, by Louis-
burg Police Officers Ralph Lester and Ned Lloyd. The
cross, about four feet high, was taken down and discarded
by the officers.
This was the latest in a long list of harrassing incidents
directed at The Times in the past few weeks. An unsigned
leaflet was attached to a number of businesses throughout
Franklin County denouncing The Times for printing a
Durham County newspaper in its printing department a
few weeks ago. The Franklin Times prints several news
papers in its shop, among which is The Carolina Times,
which is edited and published by negroes.
From the leaflet and statements by Ku Klux Klan chief
Robert Jones at a Klan rally held near Louisburg earlier
this month, the protest is aimed at the business policies of
the corporation which owns and operates a printing de
partment in conjunction with The Franklin Times news
paper.
Dr. Sadie C. Johnson of Henderson, President of The
Franklin Times, Inc., said today, “It has been the policy of
The Franklin Times for its 96-year history to do business
with all races. Our policy has not changed and is no dif
ferent from that of the majority of businesses in our area.”
Managing Editor Clint Fuller reports having received
anonymous telephone calls, both at his home and at the
officê Some, said Fuller, included threats. All, he added,
pertained to the printing of the Durham newspaper.
hls ls the second cross burning in recent days in the
ounty The FBI is investigating a cross burning last week
ai t e home of Luther Coppedge, a negro living in the
Edward Best community.
T h e F k a n k l in T im es
8/24/65
1584a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of
James T. Anderson of July 28, 1966
STEP-UP IN RACIAL INCIDENTS NOTED
A September 7th hearing in Franklin County Recorder’s
Court has been set in the cases of a white woman and man
and a Negro woman charged in a racial incident on the
streets of Louisburg last Thursday afternoon.
Mrs. Frances Duke is charged with destroying private
property as a result of reportedly tearing some placards
being carried by Negro demonstrators parading around
the County Courthouse. Woodrow Medlin, Louisburg ser
vice station operator, is faced with two charges of assault
growing out of the incident.
Michele Hutchinson, n /f, a Southern Christian Leader
ship Conference civil rights worker, is charged with block
ing traffic when she lay on the hood of an automobile
during the scuffle. Medlin is free under $400 bond, and
the two women are free under bonds of $200 each.
The town council, after conferring Friday afternoon,
granted a parade permit to local Negroes for a Friday
night march. About 82 Negroes took part in a peaceful
prayer vigil at the courthouse. There were very few
spectators on the streets in contrast to an earlier march
a few weeks ago when hundreds gathered.
Sheriff Joseph W. Champion reports a puzzling bombing
at the home of James T. Anderson five miles east of Louis
burg in what is called Massenburg Town, a Negro settle
ment. The explosive is believed to have been thrown from
a car and to have rolled off the roof of the house an.
exploded in the yard. No damage was reported.
1585a
Auxiliary polisemen were on duty for last Friday night’s
Negro demonstration, but there were no incidents reported.
Feelings have been running high in the area since the
voter rights demonstrations began here about three weeks
ago following a street walk and rally by the Ku Klux TCI an.
T h e F r a n k l in T im es
8/31/65
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of
James T. Anderson of July 28, 1966
1586a
T H E F R A N K L I N T I M E S
LOCAL EDITORIAL COMMENT
Thursday, December 9,1965
S u it I s M islead in g
The suit, filed by a group of local Negroes against the
County Board of Education, is somewhat misleading. It
charges the Board with applying “ racially discriminatory
and unconstitutional criteria” in denying the requests of
the twenty students to attend the schools of their choice.
Regardless of the ultimate outcome of the suit, it is a
slap in the face of the Board of Education, which has
acted in good faith. One would suspect that by this time
it is getting a little hard for the Board to continue to he
objective in the matter of civil rights.
Government Trial Exhibit 9
1587a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of
Plummer Alston, Jr. o f July 27, 1966
# -S tiff Photo by Clint Fuller.
Services Canceled
Franklin County Deputy Sheriff Tom Powell is
sown above inspecting the ruins of the Red Bud
„ Christ, following what he described as
‘ e ynamiting” of the building last Friday night
“found 8:30 p.m. by persons yet unknown. The
on, er Negro church held services every thirc
tn Tt ̂ &™day each week, according
tastnT' A1St°n’ Jr-' Rt- Louisburg
fe structure, located between Center
ville and Castalia in Franklin County, was com
pletely destroyed by the blast. The building be
longed to Ernestine Thomas, Rt. 2, Spring Hope
Negro. Powell reported that his department was
not notified of the incident, until around 5 p.m.
Saturday. Sheriff Joseph W . Champion reported
today that there were no new developments in his
investigation.
T h e F b a n k l in T im es
3/8/66
1588a
FRANKLIN KLANS OPERATE FREELY, OPENLY
KKK Influence Will Be Tested Over Schools, In Elections
How much influence can the Ku Klux Klan exert on
county politics and school desegregation in N. C. counties?
These are the first stories in a series studying the question
in Franklin County.
L o u i s b u k g — (U PI)— The Ku Klux Klan has established
a beachhead in Franklin County.
Pour klan klaverns and one klan-inspired association
operate in the county with such freedom that the “ secret”
order held an open house recently in its cement block head
quarters building.
Just how much influence the klan has will be measured
in two vital areas.
The klan’s political influence will be tested in the May
28 primary, when one klan official will seek a seat on the
board of education. Other candidates are expected to get
K K K support.
The klan’s influence also will be measured against federal
efforts to desegregate Franklin County’s schools.
The school battle will be fought in federal court in
Raleigh where the federal government will charge that a
“ freedom of choice” plan worked out by the Franklin
Board of Education is unworkable.
“ There have been acts of intimidation by private persons
as well as acts by county officials which have resulted in
a situation which makes the operation of the freedom of
choice plan impractical,” the Justice Department said in a
statement filed April 14.
Government Trial Exhibit 11
1589a
He said the government would show that fear of physi
cal or economic reprisal had led to only token desegrega
tion of Franklin schools.
# # * # *
The government, which has had FBI and other Justice
Department agents in the county for months, is deeply
resented by a large segment of the white population. There
have been public charges that the FBI is using “ Gestapo”
tactics to get information.
On the other hand there is a new federal guideline on
school desegregation which stipulates that names of trans
ferring Negro pupils may not be made public.
Franklin County brought that on itself.
The guideline came after the names of the first Negro
children to be accepted in the county’s all white schools
were broadcast on a Louisburg radio station and published
in a local newspaper. The names were on a list of appli
cants for transfers broadcast and published.
The government contends that following publication of
the names, the families “were threatened and intimidated
by various means, including cross burnings and shootings
. . . . at their homes and the homes of other Negroes.”
Willie M. Neal of Louisburg is the father of two Negro
boys, Christopher and Lynwood, assigned with five other
Negroes to Louisburg High School, along with 654 white
pupils.
Neal applied Sept. 10 to transfer the boys back to their
old all-Negro school, Riverside. On one of the transfer
forms, the father wrote the reason for the request: “In
timidated by students.”
Government Trial Exhibit 11
1590a
A. D. Fox, principal of Louisburg High, says he inves
tigated the parent’s charge but could find nothing to back
it up.
“In my opinion, the boy was left completely alone. . . .
His father said the boy was merely lonesome for his friends
and classmates who were at Riverside,” Fox said.
Chablotte Obsebveb
5-19-66
Government Trial Exhibit 11
1591a
IS ‘INTIMIDATION’ BY KK K UNBRIDLED
IN FRANKLIN COUNTY ?
This is the second in a series on a transition in civil rights
in Franklin County, where the Ku Klux is influential.
L ouisburg— (U PI)—One spring Saturday afternoon in
1965 a truck displaying two American and two Confederate
flags stopped on the Henderson highway in front of the
home of Rev. and Mrs. S. 0. Dunston, Negroes.
One of three white men in the truck shouted to the
Negro boys playing in the yard:
“Tell him we are going to get him. He won’t live until
tomorrow.”
The frightened boys ran to tell their foster parents, the
Dunstons. The Dunstons, who had applied in May to send
one of the boys to white Louisburg High School, telephoned
Sheirff Joseph W. Champion.
The Justice Department plans to use this incident as an
example of the “ intimidation” the government says “places
a heavy burden on any child attempting to enter a deseg
regated school” in Franklin County.
The Dunstons are on a list of government witnesses to
be called in the trial of a Franklin school desegregation
suit. The government says witnesses on the list will tes
tify as to “affairs of the Ku Klux Klan and economic re
prisal.”
Dunston, 60, is a Baptist minister with four rural
churches. A graduate of Shaw University in Raleigh, he
also is a member of the NAACP.
The Dunstons’ own children are grown. A few years ago
they began to take in foster children under license from
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
Reverend Sidney Dunston of July 26, 1966
1592a
welfare departments. The foster children included Quther,
Jerry and Lewis Geddie of Johnston County.
Mrs. Dunston, who crowds her window sills with African
violets, said Quther wanted to attend Louisburg High when
he finished all-Negro Cedar Street Elementary School in
1965. She applied for him in May.
The truck incident soon followed. The Dunstons say
Sheriff Champion and a deputy arrived promptly at their
call. While the officers were there, a truck displaying four
flags drove by and the Dunstons told them it was the same
truck.
Champion sent his deputy after the truck. He returned
and said the three white men in the truck denied having
been there earlier. Champion advised the Dunstons there
was little chance of successful prosecution. They agreed.
Champion identified the men in the truck stopped by his
deputy as Walter H. Ball, Bobby Spencer and Mann Bot
tom. Ball is an incorporator of the Franklin County Im
provement Association, a Ku Klux Klan organization. He
is a candidate for the board of education in the May 23
primary. Spencer is the son of A. H. Spencer, a candidate
for the Franklin County Commission.
The county took the three Geddie children Oct. 14, 1965,
and returned them to Johnston County. Mrs. Jane York,
Franklin County’s energetic and attractive welfare direc
tor, says Franklin had been keeping them only until Johns
ton County found a place to put them.
Mrs. Dunston believes her husband’s civil rights activity
and the school application for Quther caused removal of
the children. She says some of the Geddie children have
been returned to their mother, who has been to prison
twice. She has made the same statement to federal agents
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
Reverend Sidney Dunston of July 26, 1966
1593a
and the government has as an exhibit in its desegregation
suit a photograph of the Geddie home in Johnston County.
The records, however, support Mrs. York’s insistence
that neither civil rights nor the school application was in
volved. She had been trying since before the school appli
cations to have Johnston County take back its own children
“because we need all the space in our foster homes for
Franklin children.”
The well at the Dunston home was disapproved in 1965
by Thilbert Pearce, the county health inspector.
The Dunstons believe Pearce cracked down on them be
cause of the school application. They have exprsesed this
view to federal agents. The government lists “ lab reports
on Dunston’s well” as one of its court exhibits.
Records in Pearce’s office and in the State Welfare De
partment at Raleigh back up his decision on the well.
Foster homes are inspected regularly. The Dunston license
was not renewed because of Pearce’s findings.
Pearce feels that if anything he was too lenient too long
with the Dunstons.
“We never expect as much from Negroes as white peo
ple,” he said in an interview.
After the Dunstons complained, Pearce wrote a letter of
explanation Jan. 10, 1966, to Miss Margaret Tomlinson, a
child care worker with the county.
“In addition (to the well),” he wrote, “I would like to
mention the general sanity conditions of the home would
he more in keeping with the raising of pigs than children.
“ (The Dunstons) saw fit to bring this to the attention
of the Justice Department, causing me further and un
justified harassment.
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
Reverend Sidney Dunston of July 26, 1966
1594a
“I most definitely do not approve the sanitary conditions
of this house, nor will I until every requirement is met.
Please feel free to pass this letter on to any member of the
State Welfare Department, the Department of Justice,
Lyndon B. Johnson or Martin Luther King.”
C h a r l o t t e O b s e r v e r
5/20/66
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
Reverend Sidney Dunston of July 26, 1966
1595a
CROSSES BURNED IN COUNTY
At least three cross-burnings were reported in the county
last week, all coming at about 11 p.m. Thursday night.
Two were fired at Franklinton following a loud blast,
which officers say was designed to take them away from
the scene of one of the burnings at the Franklinton High
School on Main Street. The second was burned on the lawn
of the home of Franklinton School Superintendent Fred
Rogers.
Rogers was home at the time and quickly extinguished
the flaming cross and called officers.
A third cross was discovered early Friday morning al
most totally destroyed, on the lawn in front of the Franklin
County Board of Education building on Bickett Blvd.
Reports have it that the crosses were burned in protest
to the Head Start program being conducted at the Frank-
linton School. The program, according to reports, was first
an integrated pre-school federally sponsored project, being
held in the formerly all-white school. Recently, according
to reports, white students have withdrawn, making the
project an all-Negro project being conducted in the pre
viously all-white facility.
F b a n k l i n T i m e s
7-19-66
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of
Fred W . Rogers of July 28, 1966
1596a
(The following five articles are part of the same exhibit)
SHOOTING OF NEGRO HOME REPORTED
The Franklin County Sheriff’s Department disclosed
Monday that it is investigating the report of a shooting
at the Katie J. Perry home on Louisburg Route 3, some
time last Wednesday night. The Negro home was re
portedly shot twice with a .22 caliber pistol or rifle.
One of the bullets entered a window and lodged in an
inside wall, according to reports; the other lodged in a
window facing.
The Sheriff’s Department reported that although the
family was home, none of the members heard the shots
fired. The incident was reported to the Sheriff’s Depart
ment around 6 a. m. Thursday, according to reports.
Sheriff’s Deputies Dave Patten and Tom Powell said
that there was nothing in their investigation indicating
the incident had anything to do with the recent school suit
since none of the Perry children were involved in the case
or had applied for previously white schools. None of the
family, according to the deputies, had any idea of a reason
for the shooting.
School officials were silent on the report, but it was
learned that they are concerned in view of a ruling by
Judge Algernon Butler ten days ago that Negro children
and their parents be given a second choice period void of
intimidation. The U. S. Justice Department and attorneys
for the eleven Negro plaintiffs had claimed that massive
community hostility had prevented Negroes from exercis
ing a free choice of schools last April.
One source reported that it was doubtful that this inci
dent would change the status of the Interim Order or the
school suit.
# # ’ * * *
F r a n k l i n T i m e s
8 -9 -6 6
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of
Fred W . Rogers of April 28 , 1967
1597a
OFFICIALS CONFER TODAY IN WASHINGTON
The Franklinton City School Board ordered a postpone
ment in the opening of the two schools at Franklinton this
week. The action came at a curtailed meeting held at 1 p.m.
Tuesday afternoon at the school office.
The delay is expected to extend at least until next Wed
nesday and came as a result of a controversy over com
pliance to new Office of Education desegregation require
ments. Reports of the meeting show the reason as being
“In order to complete negotiations for compliance with the
Civil Rights Act of 1964.”
A reliable source reported that Franklinton School offi
cials are in Washington today seeking to reach some agree
ment with federal authorities on the requirements. * * *
Over 300 Franklinton citizens attended the meeting of
the Board in the Franklinton High School auditorium last
Saturday to protest the Board’s announced intentions to
move the seventh grades from the B. F. Person-Albion
Negro School * * *' to the Franklinton High School. The
meeting ended without the Board coming to a decision on
the matter. # * *
# # * # #
The controversy began last week when a four-man team
from the Department of Health, Education and Welfare
visited Franklinton to “aid the Board complying to the
HEW guidelines.” Several meetings between the Board
and the Washington officials ended with a watered down
request that the two seventh grades be moved from the
Negro school to the predominantly white Franklinton High
School. A petition bearing 584 names was presented to
the Board Saturday afternoon urging that the Board not
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of
Fred W. Rogers of April 28, 1967
1598a
agree to the transfer of the classes which would have
resulted in the addition of about 75 more Negro students
in the white school.
F r a n k l i n T i m e s
8-30-66
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of
Fred W. Rogers of April 28, 1967
CONTEOVEESY EAGES OYEE FEANKLINTON
SCHOOL DECISION
The possibility of further desegregation of Franklinton
City Schools through compliance to recent Office of Edu
cation requests brought on a heated public meeting in the
school auditorium late Saturday afternoon.
Over 300 Franklinton Township citizens gathered in the
school building at 4 :30 p.m. Saturday, following disclosure
that the School Board was to have a special meeting at
that time to vote on moving the seventh grades from B. F.
Per son-Albion Negro School to the predominantly white
Franklinton High School.
The trouble started earlier in the week when a four-man
team from the U. S. Office of Education arrived in Frank
linton to “aid the school board” in formulating a plan
which would meet federal approval. * * *
The team originally, reportedly, recommended that B.
F. Person-Albion he made an elementary school to accom
modate children of both races and that the Franklinton
High School be made a high school for both races. Several
meetings were reportedly held between the Board and the
HEW officials. The Board reportedly held a special meet
ing, one of several during the week, on Friday night fol
lowed by another on Saturday morning.
1599a
The minutes show that at Saturday’s meeting, the Board
first voted 4 to 2 to accept the HEW recommendation to
move two seventh grade classes from the Negro school to
the Franklinton High School. The minutes show that Board
members Brodie Green and Rupert Pearce voted against
the proposal. The Board ordered Superintendent Fred
Rogers to send a wire to Washington verifying that the
group was accepting the watered-down requirement. Im
mediately following the adjournment at 11:50 a.m., Chair
man John Moore instructed Supt. Rogers to withhold send
ing the wire “until the entire Board could be present in
order to he sure that each member will have voted on this
very important action.”
As soon as word of this action reached the street, a peti
tion was circulated and by the 4:30 p.m. meeting 584 per
sons had signed the paper calling for the School Board
to reject the HEW requests. A spokesman for the group
later pointed out that signers were secured in the rela
tively short time of two hours and that scores more would
have signed had they been contacted. Among the signers,
according to spokesmen for the petitioners, were several
Negro citizens voicing their opposition to the new require
ments.
* * # # *
Franklinton attorney Hubert Senter, speaking for the
citizens, told the School Board “We had rather go to court
than to take these suggestions of the team from Washing
ton, who really have no authority to make us do anything.”
He added, “Let’s not be afraid to go to court,” and made
reference to the Franklin County School system being
under court order at the present time.
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of
Fred W. Rogers of April 28, 1967
1600a
“ Gentlemen, you are derelict in your duty if you do not
abide by the wishes of the vast majority of those who
put you there,” Senter said, pointing to the stage where
the Board was seated. The attorney assured the Board,
“ You will have the full support of everyone here,” in
emphasizing his request that HEW requests be rejected.
# # # * *
Meanwhile, plans were in progress to open schools on
time in the district, with students arriving for orientation
Wednesday and the first day of school slated for Thurs
day. In the absence of further action by the Board, the
Franklinton Schools will operate much as they did last
year with seven Negro students attending the predominant
ly white Franklinton High School.
Franklinton Police Chief Leo Edwards ordered his full
force on duty Saturday night as feelings ran high in the
community. Special officers were assigned to guard the
home of Supt. Fred Rogers, who had become a focal point
in the controversy. * * *
F r a n k l i n T i m e s
8-30-66
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of
Fred W. Rogers of April 28, 1967
Tuesday, September 6, 1966
LOCAL EDITORIAL COMMENT
Who’s H arras sing Whof
Federal Bureau of Investigation agents were in the
county last week, questioning a number of citizens on
their attendance at the public school meeting in Franklin
ton a couple of Saturdays ago. Their presence immediate
1601a
ly poses a most serious question, which should be an
swered by the govornment.
When was the constitution altered to make it a crime
for citizens to hold or attend a public meeting, in which
they informed their representatives how they felt on
certain issues? This country was built on the old town
hall meetings and the affair at Franklinton was nothing
more than a modern day counterpart of these. One would
readily admit that there are some folks present who might
have approached the discussion in a more polite manner,
but we suspect that the early Americans, on occasion, per
haps had a few chosen words in their meetings.
The point is not the manner in which the meeting was
held. The very important fact is that because one was
held, local citizens have been called on and questioned by
agents of the federal government. Our point is, where is
the crime? What reason can possibly be given for the
invasion of the county by eight (according to a reliable
count) F. B. I. agents? If that many trained men are
sent to little old Franklin County because of a public
meeting, how many agents does the government have?
Unless we have a tremendous number of them, some
body isn’t looking after the country’s security interests.
They must all be working on theory that only Southerners
are subversive.
One report said the agents are asking questions about
rumored threats. We heard some of the rumors. They
may or may not bear investigation. But, if they do, the
Franklinton Police Department is far more capable of
handling the situation than is the federal government.
And aside from this the local police department is the
only agency charged with such an investigation.
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of
Fred W. Rogers of April 28, 1967
1602a
* * * A legitimate investigation is one thing, harrass-
ment is another. Perhaps none of these individual agents
have intentionally intimidated a single citizen, but their
presence in itself is an affront not only to the good citi
zens of Franklinton, hut to every citizen in the entire
United States.
F r a n k l i n T i m e s
9-6-66
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of
Fred W. Rogers of April 28, 1967
To Federal Requests
FRANKLINTON BOARD VOTES “NO”
The Franklinton City Board of Education reversed a
previous action Wednesday and voted unanimously not to
comply with recent requests made by the U. S. Office of
Education. In a special meeting in the Franklinton High
School library, attended by around 100 citizens, the Board
approved a motion made by Board member William Avery
Wilder to continue operating the Franklinton Schools un
der the Freedom of Choice plan adopted last Spring.
Board member Brodie Green seconded the motion and all
members voted aye.
The meeting was delayed about twenty minutes while
the Board and attorneys W. P. Pearce of Franklinton and
E. F. Yarborough of Louisburg conferred in private.
Chairman John Moore opened the meeting and called for
any motions. Dr. Richard Whitfield, a Board member,
moved that the action previously taken approving the
transfer of two seventh grades and two Negro teachers
from the B. F. Person-Albion Negro school be reclined.
Following a second, the Board voted unanimously in favor
of the motion.
1603a
Chairman Moore then called on Louisburg attorney Ed
ward F. Yarborough, who accompanied several Franklin-
ton school officials to Washington last Thursday to confer
with federal authorities, to explain that conference and to
comment on the present status of the Frank! in ton situa
tion.
Yarborough told that Health, Education and Welfare
Department officials had offered an alternative to the
original request for transfer of Negro children to the pre
dominantly white Franklinton School. They ottered, ac
cording to Yarborough, to have Franklinton reopen the
free choice period for a limited time, apparently one week,
in an effort to see if enough new applicants would be ob
tained to meet certain HEW percentages. Mention was
later made that the percentage was around 12 percent
which would involve transfer of an additional 80-90 pupils.
The Louisburg attorney, who is also attorney for the
Franklin County Board of Education, now under federal
court order in the operation of its schools, answered a
number of questions from the people gathered for the
meeting. T. H. Pearce and Franklinton attorney Hubert
Senter, spokesmen for the citizens group, asked the Board
to continue the school operation under the freedom of
choice plan adopted last Spring, which resulted in seven
Negro applicants being assigned to the predominantly
white Franklinton High School.
After a lengthy discussion and several additional re
quests for immediate action by the Board, Chairman Moore
announced first that the Board had by its action Wednes
day morning, reverted back to “where we were three weeks
ago.” He added, “We will now consider more delibera
tions before making a decision. Any decision will he made
public immediately.”
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of
Fred W. Rogers of April 28, 1967
1604a
At this point, T. H. Pearce asked, “Are yon saying that
the Board is not going to take action with us here?”
Pearce added, “If this is true, our people would like to
know how do we go about removing certain members of
the school hoard?”
Moore admitted that he could not answer the question,
as did attorney W. P. Pearce. Yarborough stated there
were some provisions in state law whereby the State Super
intendent could remove board members for cause, but that
he was not familiar with the entire section.
Moore answered Pearce by saying, “We are looking for
a reasonable solution to this problem.” Rev. Tommy
Clarke, pastor of Parry’s Chapel Church near Franklinton,
then addressed the Chairman and said, “We would like to
see every Board member stand up and be counted by
saying I will vote with the people or against the people.”
The Chairman remarked that “ The Board is attempting
to gather information on the feelings of the people at this
time.”
F r a n k l i n T i m e s
9-8-66
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of
Fred W. Rogers of April 28, 1967
Thursday, September 8,1966
NOT A MOB, JUST PEOPLE
Two weeks ago, when a group of Franklinton citizens
met with their school board, one report called the group a
“mob” . Wednesday’s meeting of around a hundred citi
zens, again with their school hoard, was described by one
report as a “group of shouting whites.”
Neither of these reports were correct. Ironically, neither
report was made by newsmen present at the two meetings.
1605a
There were some among the group who showed very
strong feelings on the matters being discussed, but for the
most part the meetings were orderly. Certainly there was
nothing to merit the word “mob” or “ shouting whites.”
No one would deny for a moment that race issue was a
part of the recent controversy which resulted in the meet
ings. But, there were other considerations. The group
did not ask the board to continue a segregated school sys
tem. To the contrary, in both meetings and in a meeting
of the citizens group only, the freedom of choice plan was
supported.
These citizens recognized the fact that the law must be
obeyed. As much as anything else, the Franklinton people
opposed the federal government’s telling them how to op
erate their schools.
School Board members were caught in between pressure
from Washington and doing what many of their constitu
ents wanted them to do. They realized only too well that
while the schools belong to the people, it was their board
which was charged with operating them in the best interest
of the community.
The matter, for the moment, has been settled. The next
move now is up to Washington. Only time will tell if the
decision is a wise one. But, wise or not, it was a deci
sion arrived at through the people expressing their consti
tutional rights to be heard.
Washington may not like it and some reporters might
make a poor choice of words in describing it, but the truth
always speaks very loud. The truth is, the people had
tired of federal domination. They want to tend to their
own business.
To this, we say amen. Let them.
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of
Fred W. Rogers of April 28, 1967
1606a
Government Trial Exhibit 36
PRESSURE IN A THICKET
No one should misunderstand the difficulties which
Franklinton school officials have had with the U. S. Office
of Education, or with that agency’s “guidelines” and some
of its field staff. Many other local officials have faced the
same difficulties, and perhaps were only more fortunate
in being able to accommodate local reluctance and federal
insistence for increased school integration.
Still there must be regret for the decision which Frank-
linton’s school board felt compelled to make in backtrack
ing on its desegregation plan. Considering the circum
stances surrounding the decision, that fine community’s
public education problems and racial troubles are only
beginning. And, sad to say, these new difficulties appar
ently will not displease some of the school patrons in
Franklinton.
The school board rescinded its plan to move an entire
seventh grade of a Negro school to a predominantly white
school because of pressure from white parents—584 resi
dents signed a petition opposing the step. Of course, a
local school board cannot simply ignore such pressure. But
the alternative to bending to it must now be clearly faced.
That will not be merely the loss of federal money. It
certainly will not be just a law suit with a federal agency.
Franklinton’s school system is moving toward a position
of defiance of the law of the land as enacted by the Con
gress. And none of the bureaucratic arbitrariness attrib
uted to federal administrators (or the old complaints about
the U. S. Supreme Court) will give legal support to Frank
linton’s position.
1607a
Government Trial Exhibit 36
The extraordinary citizen pressure generated against the
school board is going to he evidence as to why a “freedom
of choice” plan of desegregation has not worked there. It
is doubtful whether any court would believe “ freedom of
choice” is possible where such pressure has been demon
strated. Hopefully, Franklinton officials can still find some
way out of this thicket, other than giving in to the greater
pressure applied to them. Eventually, federal law is going
to be complied with or imposed. And in neither event will
the bureaucrats be injured or the mistaken segregationists
rewarded.
R a l e i g h N e w s a n d O b s e b v e r .
9-10-66
1608a
(The following three articles are part of the same exhibit.)
FRANKLINTON STJPT. TO FACE CHARGES
Franklin ton City Schools Superintendent Fred W.
Rogers declined comment this morning on charges brought
against him for allegedly assaulting two Franklinton
youths at a football game in Louisburg Friday night.
The charges were filed with Mrs. Betsy Lavender, Assist
ant Clerk of Court, here Monday by fathers of Charles D.
Smith, 15, and Melvin D. Hayes, 17, both students at
Franklinton High School.
In warrants sworn out by the parents, Rogers was
charged with holding the shirt collar of one boy and shaking
him and threatening bodily harm and with twisting the
arm of the other boy, according to reports.
The attack is said to have taken place in the parking lot
adjacent to the football field at the Louisburg School. One
report stated that Rogers accused the boys of tampering
with his car and that the boys denied the charges.
The warrant was served by Deputy Sheriff Tom Powell
Monday afternoon and Rogers is to appear in Recorder’s
Court to answer the charges on October 4. He is free under
$200 bond in the charges.
F r a n k l in T im es
9-27-66
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of
Fred W . Rogers of April 28 , 1967
BLASTS DO MINOR DAMAGE
Two explosions early Wednesday night in the vicinity
of Harris Crossroads resulted in minor damage, mostly to
window panes in the homes of two Negro families. What
was described as dynamite, by Deputy Sheriff Dave Batten,
1609a
was set off between 8:30 and 9 p.m. Wednesday in the
yards of homes occupied by the Robert Goode and Lonnie
Black families.
The blasts reportedly occurred about five minutes apart
and took place several yards from the houses. * * *
Black’s wife said this morning that she, her husband
and two children were sitting in the rear of the house
when the explosion took place. She said she had no idea
who nor why the blasts were set off in her yard. She said
that her only child in school attended a Negro school and
that she had had no trouble either near Youngsville where
she lived earlier nor at her present location.
The Goode children also attend Negro schools, according
to reports and no reason for the incidents was theorized
by Sheriff’s officers who were called late Wednesday night
and were searching for clues at the homes this morning.
# * * * *
F r a n k l i n T i m e s
October 6, 1966
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of
Fred W. Rogers of April 28, 1967
ROGERS IS SUED FOR $70,000
Frank! in ton Schools Superintendent Fred W. Rogers
charged with assaulting two teen-age boys in a Louisburg
High School parking lot last September 23, is being sued
by the parents of the two boys for the total of $70,000.
The actions were brought last week by Douglas Hayes
for his son Melvin D. 17 and Alvis W. Smith for his son,
Charles D. 15. The suit asks $10,000 punitive damages to
each boy and $25,000 personal injury for each.
* * * * *
F r a n k l i n T i m e s
11-29-66
1610a
S u p e r i n t e n d e n t ’ s L e t t e r E e v e a l s
FRANKLINTON BUS USE SUSPENDED, LIFTED
FOLLOWING K K K THREATS
Fr art Flint,on School officials suspended the use of the
Franklinton High School activity bus this month following
what was described as reports that the Ku Klux Klan
planned to damage the bus in order to place responsibility
for “any resulting disaster” on the Superintendent and
the School Board.
The suspension came to light in Franklinton Tuesday
when a letter, signed by Superintendent Fred W. Rogers,
was sent to parents of the students, explaining that the
suspension has now been lifted, but that extreme care and
inspection will accompany any use of the bus in the future.
The action removing the suspension of the use of the
activity bus and setting down certain procedures for future
use came at a meeting of the Franklinton Board of Educa
tion last week. * * *
The letter also disclosed that the School Board seriously
considered complete cancelation of all athletic activities
and use of the bus, including the ever-popular basketball
season by the school’s teams.
Supt. Rogers declined comment as to the source of the
reports on the Klan plans to damage the bus and Frank
linton Police Chief Leo Edwards said Wednesday morning
that he had heard nothing of such reports prior to receiving
the Roger’s letter. Edwards said however that he had al
ready launched an investigation into the matter Wed
nesday.
F r a n k l i n T i m e s
December 1, 1966
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of
Fred W. Rogers of April 28, 1967
1611a
HIGH SAYS DEPUTY SUGGESTED
TRANSFER CHILDREN OR MOVE
B y B o b L y n c h
A Wake County Negro tenant farmer who discovered the
night after a cross was burned in his yard that kerosene
had been poured in his well said Tuesday a Wake sheriff’s
deputy suggested he take his children out of a predomi
nantly white school or move out of the Knightdale area.
The deputy, Ed Watkins, has been assigned by Sheriff
Robert J. Pleasants to investigate the cross-burning and
well-poisoning incident at the home of the Isham High
family.
High told a reporter that Watkins visited his home
Tuesday and asked High and his wife why they wanted
to send their children to the Knightdale Elementary school,
which is predominantly white.
Watkins also asked the Highs why they didn’t send their
children to another school. High said the deputy also asked
them if “we were thinking about moving.”
High said Watkins also visited the well, which had been
ruined by kerosene, and sniffed the bucket. The deputy
didn’t draw any water from the well, just sniffed the bucket,
High said.
High said that he doubted that Watkins was able to
detect any odor of kerosene, since the bucket had been
washed by recent rains.
Watkins also talked to the couple about “pointing a
finger” at the Ku Klux Klan until it was proven, High
said.
Government Exhibit 4 to the Deposition of
Arthur L. Morgan of May 20, 1967
1612a
Talked To Superintendent
High said he told Watkins that he had gone to the Wake
superintendent of schools, Fred Smith, and talked to him
about taking his children out of the Knightdale school
after a cross was burned in High’s yard last October.
“I tried to explain to him (Watkins) that Mr. Smith said
we couldn’t take the children out of the school because of
federal rules,” High said.
He said he told Watkins that he had enrolled his children
in the Knightdale school for convenience. He explained
that the Knightdale school is only about 500 yards from
his home, whereas the Shepard school, which is predomi
nantly Negro, is about a mile and a half or more from his
home.
His Rent Is Paid
As for moving to another area, High said he told Wat
kins that he had already paid his rent on the farm he
leases. Also, High said, he told the deputy he had already
begun plowing for this year’s crop.
“We don’t want to point our finger at anyone,” High
told The News and Observer. “As Mr. Watkins said, it
could be someone else and not the Klan. But all we know
is that the burning cross is a sign of that organization.”
Tuesday morning Sheriff Pleasants told a reporter that
he hopes to solve the Knightdale cross-burning case, “but
we’ll have to do it our way, not in some sensational way
making headlines.”
Pleasants later declined to tell a News and Observer
reporter what was being done to solve the case his way.
He declined to comment except to say, “ The investigation
is being continued.”
Government Exhibit 4 to the Deposition of
Arthur L. Morgan of May 20, 1967
1613a
This reporter, after talking to Pleasants, called several
residents along the Smithfield Road near Knightdale who
are neighbors of the Highs.
Each of High’s neighbors said that neither Pleasants nor
any of his deputies had visited them or talked to them
about what they may have seen or heard on the night the
cross was burned in the Highs’ yard.
Most of the neighbors said they had been visited and
questioned by an agent of the Federal Bureau of Investi
gation about incidents at the High home.
R a l e i g h N e w s a n d O b s e e v e e
2-8-67
Government Exhibit 4 to the Deposition of
Arthur L. Morgan of May 20, 1967
1614a
‘ALL I WANT IS PEACE’
By C h a r l e s C r a v e n
First there were the cross-burnings—furtive figures
sneaking up to the edge of the yard and planting the burlap-
wrapped, oil soaked symbols of the Ku Klux Klan.
Next—the day after the second cross burning—Isham
High found that his well was rank with kerosene.
And now—over two weeks later—Isham High is being
subjected to gloating, hate-inspired innuendos that noth
ing was ever poured into the well. And now—after nine
inches of snow and apathetic investigation of the well-
spoiling incident by the Wake County Sheriff’s Depart
ment—Isham High is getting anonymous phone calls. The
callers tell him he should return the money sympathetic
people have sent him for a new well.
He’d Grive It Back
“ I would gladly give the money back,” he said Friday.
“I ’ll give it back if they want me to . . . I never did want
any trouble.”
True, the well has cleared up considerably. Friday light
streaks and flecks of an oily substance could still be seen
when a bucket full of the water was drawn up. But it was
nothing like the shiny, bubbly, smelly, acrid-tasting rain
bow hued oil slick that covered the surface of the well more
than two weeks ago.
So on Friday, Isham High and his wife sat glumly in the
small living room of their tenant farm house near Knight-
dale. In his big, earth-used hand, he held the checks and
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
Arthur L. Morgan of May 20, 1967
1615a
the currency the indignant people had sent him. “I just
don’t want to take anything I ought not to have,” he said.
* * * * *
He Wants Peace
“I ’d be glad to get everything settled,” said Isham
High. “All I want is peace . . . Maybe there shouldn’t be
anything else in the paper.” The man felt humiliated by
the mean rumors of a hoax.
“There are some mighty nice people,” he said.
His wife, her face worried, nodded her agreement.
The anonymous prejudice-eaten phone callers would
never see Isham High and his A v ife sitting in their little
bedroom a few feet from the phone that rings and sends
out the sneering voices.
And High is still carrying water from neighbors some
distance away. “No . . . We haven’t used any of the water
since that thing happened,” he said.
R a l e i g h N e w s a n d O b s e r v e r
2-18-67
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of
Arthur L. Morgan of May 20, 1967
1616a
Government Trial Exhibit 33
No D e c i s i o n R e a c h e d
FRANKLINTON SCHOOL HEARING RECESSED
The public hearing involving the Franklinton City School
system and the U. S. Department of Health, Education and
Welfare was recessed late Monday in Washington without
a decision being handed down by the hearing officer.
# # # # *■
A key HEW witness was a Franklinton Negro farmer,
Buck Norwood who testified Monday that after placing
his granddaughter Mabel Kingsberry in the predominantly
white Franklinton High School in 1965, he began receiving
threatening phone calls. He said that “ someone shot dyna
mite that threw trash on my house” .
# # * # *
Norwood testified that many Negroes are afraid to send
their children to the formerly all-white Franklinton High
School.
“ They’re scared for two reasons: They’re scared they’ll
be bombed or beaten and they’re scared they’ll have to
move. I was scared, but now I have two dogs, one tied to
the back of my house and the other sleeps on the porch,”
he said.
Norwood said that after his granddaughter enrolled in
the white school in 1965, someone telephoned and said:
“You’d better go down to the school and take her name
off.”
“ I told the phone-caller I didn’t put her name on and I
didn’t intend to take it off,” Norwood explained. He re
ported that he got another telephone call later, telling him
to remove the girl’s name from the rolls at the school.
1617a
Government Trial Exhibit 33
“I said, ‘I don’t have any authority to take it off’ .”
Late one night, he said, “ Someone threw trash on my
house. Then I got another phone call saying ‘What I did
the other night, the next time I ’ll get your house’ .”
* * * * *
F r a n k l i n T i m e s
4-25-67
1618a
Government Trial Exhibit 35
FRANKLINTON BOARD STUDIES
FURTHER DESEGREGATION
According to reliable sources, the Franklinton City
Board of Education is studying the possibility of assign
ing 46 Negro students to the predominantly white Frank
linton High School for the coming school year. The 46
are students for which free choice applications have not
been filed.
Franklinton High School, according to the sources, has
five requests for assignment of Negro students to the
Franklinton High School. This is less than the number
of Negro students attending the school last year.
The Franklinton system has been under fire for the past
year by the U. S. Office of Education and was placed on
the deferred list for receiving federal funds a few months
ago by the Department of Health, Education and Welfare.
# # * # *
No direct announcement has been made by the Franklin
ton Board, but reliable sources report that around twenty
private citizens visited a recent Board meeting where the
possibility of further desegregation was discussed, and
asked that students not be assigned unless a choice had
been made.
# * * # #
F r a n k l i n T i m e s
July 13, 1967
MEILEN PRESS INC. — N. Y. C.«^ °̂219