Bivins v. Board of Public Education and Orphanage for Bibb County Record on Appeal

    Inttefc (Emtrt 0! Appmh
I n  t h e

F or t h e  F if t h  C ircu it

No. 21690

S h ir ley  B iv in s , et al., 

—v.—
Appellants,

B oard of P ublic  E ducation and 
Orphanage for B ibb County , et al.,

Appellees.

APPEAL FROM TPIE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE 

MIDDLE DISTRICT OF GEORGIA

RECORD ON APPEAL

D onald L. I I ollowell

859% Hunter Street, N. W. 
Atlanta, Georgia

J ack Greenberg  
C onstance B aker M otley 
D errick  A. B ell, J r .

10 Columbus Circle 
New York, N. Y. 10019

Attorneys for Appellants



I N D E X

PAGE

Complaint ........................................................ ............. -

Motion for Preliminary Injunction -...........................

Answer .................................... .......................................

Order of January 24, 1964 .................................. ..........

Defendant Board’s Plan of Desegregation ...... ..........

Plaintiffs’ Objections to Board’s Desegregation Plan ..

Plaintiffs’ Plan of Desegregation ................................

Transcript of Hearing on April 13, 1964 ........... ..... ....
Colloquy of Court and Counsel___ ___ _______
Summary of Plaintiffs’ Objections to Plan ..........

1

13

16

26

30

37

40

42
42
46

Appellants’ Witnesses:

Julius L. Gfholson
Cross .........................................................  52
D irect.....................................................  74
Recross .....................................................  75

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson
Cross .........................................................  76



11

PAGE

Defendants’ Witnesses:

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson
D irect...........................................................  87
Cross ..........................................................  103
Redirect....................................................... 109
Recross ......................................................  115

Wallace Miller, Jr.
D irect...................................-............... ...... 117
Cross .....................................   137
Redirect....................................................... 143
Recross ....................................................... 143

Dr. Leon R. Culpepper
D irect..........................................................  146
Cross ..........................................................  160
Redirect......................................................  170
Recross ......................................................  171

Julius L. Cliolson
D irect..........................................................  172

Resumed
D irect............................... -......................... 204
Cross ..........................................................  206
Redirect....................................................... 230

Dr. H. GL Weaver
D irect..........................................................  197
Cross ..........................................................  201

Raymonde M. Kelley
Direct ..........................................................  233
Cross ..........................................................  239



Ill

PAGE

Defendants’ Exhibits ............................ -............... 253
Plaintiffs’ Argument................................................ 261
Defendants’ Responsive Argument .................... — 275

Opinion and Order of April 27, 1964 

Notice of Appeal ............................. 298



Isr t h e

Ilnxtvb iistrirt (Umtrt
F or t h e  M iddle D istrict of Georgia 

Macon Division 
Civil Action No. 1926

S h irley  B ivin s , J ames B iv in s , L arry B ivins an d  F ra n k lin  
B iv in s , m in o rs , by  H ester L . B iv in s , th e ir  m o th e r  an d  
n ex t fr ie n d ,

and

S olomon B o uie , Glory A n n  B ouie a n d  D orothy M ae B ogie, 
m in o rs , by  R ev. W ill ie  R. B ogie, th e ir  f a th e r  an d  n ex t 
fr ie n d ,

and

J oyce D ickey , m in o r, by  R ev. E. Grant D ickey , 
h e r  f a th e r  a n d  n ex t fr ie n d ,

and

H elen  G oodrgm, L ela Goodrgm, T homas Goodrgm, J ohn  
Goodrgm an d  Jo A n n  G oodrgm, m in o rs , by  T homas 
Goodrgm, th e ir  f a th e r  an d  n e x t fr ie n d ,

and

P atricia A n n  H arper, m in o r, by  A be H arper, 
h e r  f a th e r  an d  n ex t fr ien d ,

and

Charlie  B ell W illiam s , S ara J eannette  W illiam s and 
T om m ie L ee W illiam s , minors, by M rs. V ada D. H arris, 
their mother and next friend,

an d



2
Complaint

A lice M aeie H aet, m in o r, by  M rs. W ill ie  M ae H art, 
h e r  m o th e r an d  n ex t fr ie n d ,

an d

P aul H il l , J r ., Cly ne  H ill , B ern estin e  H ill  an d  L ucy 
M ae H udson, m in o rs , b y  I nez H il l , th e ir  m o th e r an d  
n e x t fr ie n d ,

an d

Carolyn H olston, M elvin  H olston, L yre H olston, M axine 
H olston, an d  E arnestine  H olston, m in o rs , b y  H enry  
H olston, th e ir  f a th e r  a n d  n ex t fr ie n d ,

an d

S olomon H u g h es , III, m in o r, b y  S olomon H u g h es , J r ., 
h is  fa th e r  an d  n ex t fr ie n d ,

an d

B ill y J oe L ew is , H arold M artin  L ew is , Y vonne D ian n e  
L ew is , R ay Charles L ew is  an d  E stella M arie L ew is , 
m in o rs , by  M r. R ay L ew is , th e ir  f a th e r  an d  n e x t fr ie n d ,

an d

M errit J o h nso n , th e ir  f a th e r  a n d  n e x t f r ie n d , 
M errit J ohnso&, th e ir  f a th e r  a n d  n ex t fr ie n d ,

an d

W ill ie  H oward, J r ., D elores H oward, an d  R andolph  
H oward, m in o rs , b y  G ertrude H oward, th e ir  m o th e r 
a n d  n e x t fr ie n d ,

an d



3

Complaint

D elmarie MoDow, minor, by W yatt J. McDow, 
her father and next friend,

an d

Lois F armer, L arry S tewart, M axine  S tewart, J oe L. 
S tewart and L olita R utland , m in o rs , by D orothea 
S tewart, their mother and next friend,

Plaintiffs,

B oard oe P ublic  E ducation of B ibb County , Georgia, H. G. 
W eaver, President, M allory C. A t k in so n , Vice Presi­
dent, W allace M iller , J r., Secretary, W illiam  P. S im ­
mons, Treasurer, George P. R a n k in , J r., H erbert F. 
B irdsey, C harles C. H eetw ig , A lbert S. H atcher , J r., 
F rank M. W illin g h a m , W illiam  A. F ick lin g , Sr,, 
R obert A. M cC ord, J r., and R a lph  E ubanks , Members, 

H on . W alter C. S tevens, Mayor E dgar H . W ilson , 
Judge Oscar L . L ong and Judge H al B ell , Ex-Officio 
Members, and J u liu s  L. Gohlson , Superintendent,

Defendants.

C om plaint

1.
The jurisdiction of this Court is invoked pursuant to the 

provisions of Title 28, United States Code, Section 1343(3), 
this being a suit in equity, authorized by law, Title 42, 
United States Code, Section 1983, to be commenced by any 
citizen of the United States or other person within the 
jurisdiction thereof to redress the deprivation, under color



4

Complaint

of statute, ordinance, regulation, custom or usage of a 
State, of rights, privileges and immunities secured by the 
Constitution and laws of the United States. The rights, 
privileges and immunities sought to be secured by this ac­
tion are rights, privileges and immunities secured by the 
due process and equal protection clauses of the Fourteenth 
Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as 
hereinafter more fully appears.

2.

This is a proceeding for a preliminary and permanent 
injunction enjoining the Board of Public Education of Bibb 
County, Georgia, its members and its Superintendent of 
Schools, Julius L. Gohlson, from continuing their policy, 
practice, custom and usage of operating a dual school sys­
tem in Bibb County, Georgia, based wholly on the race and 
color of the children attending schools in said county.

3.
The plaintiffs in this case are Shirley Bivins, James 

Bivins, Larry Bivins and Franklin Bivins, minors, by 
Hester L. Bivins, their mother and next friend; Solomon 
Bouie, Glory Ann Bouie and Dorothy Mae Bouie, minors, 
by Rev. Willie R. Bouie, their father and next friend; Joyce 
Dickey, minor, by Rev. E. Grant Dickey, her father and 
next friend; Helen Goodrum, Lela Goodrum, Thomas Good- 
rum, John Goodrum and Jo Ann Goodrum, minors, by 
Thomas Goodrum, their father and next friend; Patricia 
Ann Harper, minor, by Abe Harper, her father and next 
friend; Charlie Bell Williams, Sara Jeannette Williams and 
Tommie Lee Williams, minors, by Mrs. Yada. D. Harris, 
their mother and next friend; Alice Marie Hart, minor, by 
Mrs. Willie Mae Hart, her mother and next friend; Paul



5

Complaint

Hill, Jr., Clyne Hill, Bernestine Hill and Lucy Mae Hudson, 
minors, by Inez Hill, their mother and next friend; Carolyn 
Holston, Melvin Holston, Lyre Holston, Maxine Ilolston, 
and Earnestine Holston, minors, by Henry Holston, their 
father and next friend; Solomon Hughes, III, minor, by 
Solomon Hughes, Jr., his father and next friend; Billy Joe 
Lewis, Harold Martin Lewis, Yvonne Dianne Lewis, Eay 
Charles Lewis and Estella Marie Lewis, minors, by Mr. Bay 
Lewis, their father and next friend; Merrit Johnson, Jr., 
and Pamela Sue Johnson, minors, by Merrit Johnson, their 
father and next friend; Willie Howard, Jr., Delores 
Howard and Randolph Howard, minors, by Gertrude How­
ard, their mother and next friend; Delmarie McDow, minor, 
by Wyatt J. McDow, her father and next friend; and Lois 
Parmer, Larry Stewart, Maxine Stewart, Joe L. Stewart 
and Lolita Rutland, minors, by Dorothea Stewart, their 
mother and next friend. Plaintiffs are all members of the 
Negro race and bring this action on their own behalf and 
on behalf of all other Negro children and their parents in 
Bibb County who are similarly situated and affected by the 
policy, practice, custom and usage complained of herein. 
Plaintiffs are all citizens of the United States and the 
State of Georgia, Bibb County, Georgia. The minor plain­
tiffs and other minor Negro children similarly situated are 
eligible to attend the public schools of Bibb County which 
are under the jurisdiction, management and control of the 
defendant Board, but from which the plaintiffs and all 
other Negro children similarly situated have been segre­
gated because of their race pursuant to the policy, prac­
tice, custom and usage of the defendant Board. The mem­
bers of the class on behalf of whom plaintiffs sue are so 
numerous as to make it impracticable to bring them all in­
dividually before this Court, but there are common ques­
tions of law and fact involved, common grievances arising



6

Complaint

out of common wrongs and common relief is sought for 
each member of the class. The plaintiffs fairly and ade­
quately represent the interests of the class.

4.
The defendants in this case are the Bibb County Board 

of Education. The members of said Board are H. G. 
Weaver, President, Mallory C. Atkinson, Vice-President, 
Wallace Miller, Jr., Secretary, William P. Simmons, 
Treasurer, George P. Rankin, Jr., Herbert F. Birdsey, 
Charles C. Hertwig, Albert S. Hatcher, Jr., Frank M. Wil­
lingham, William A. Fickling, Sr., Robert A. McCord, Jr., 
and Ralph Eubanks. Hon. Walter C. Stevens, Mayor, 
Edgar H. Wilson, Judge Oscar L. Long and Judge Hal 
Bell are Ex-Officio Members. Julius L. Gohlson is Super­
intendent. The defendant Board maintains and generally 
supervises the public schools in Bibb County, Georgia, act­
ing pursuant to the direction and authority contained in 
the State’s constitutional provisions and statutes, and as 
such are officers and agents of the State of Georgia enforc­
ing and exercising state laws and policies.

5.
Plaintiffs allege that the defendants, acting under color 

of the authority vested in them by the laws of the State of 
Georgia, have pursued and are presently following pur­
suant to and under color of state law, a policy, custom, 
practice and usage of operating the public school system of 
Bibb County, Georgia, on a basis that discriminates against 
plaintiffs and other Negroes similarly situated because of 
race or color, to w it:

(a) The defendant Board maintains and operates the 
public schools in Bibb County, Georgia, all of which schools



7

Complaint

are operated on a completely segregated basis. None of 
the approximately 11,000 Negro children residing within 
the County, and eligible to attend the public schools have 
ever been assigned by the Board to attend white schools, 
and in accordance with this policy, practice and custom, 
each of the minor plaintiffs is assigned to one of approxi­
mately 16 Negro schools, some of which are located further 
from their homes than schools limited to whites. In simi­
lar fashion, all of the approximately 19,000 white children 
residing within the County, and eligible to attend the pub­
lic schools, have been assigned by the Board only to the 
34 white schools. Teachers, principals and other profes­
sional personnel are assigned by the defendant Board on 
the basis of race so that Negro teaching personnel are as­
signed to Negro schools and white teaching personnel are 
assigned to white schools. Bus transportation is provided 
on a racially segregated basis, and all curricula and extra­
curricular activities and school programs are conducted on 
a racially segregated basis. All budgets and other funds 
appropriated and expended by defendants are appropri­
ated and expended by defendants separately for Negro and 
white schools.

(b) The defendant Board on several occasions has been 
placed on notice that plaintiff's and members of their class 
wish to have the Bibb County public schools desegregated 
in accordance with the Supreme Court’s school desegrega­
tion decision of 1954.

(c) In December 1954, a petition calling on the Board to 
desegregate the schools was submitted by Negro citizens 
of Bibb County. In response to this petition, the Board 
promised to hold a hearing when such meeting would be 
constructive and proper. To plaintiff’s knowledge, no such 
hearing was ever held.



Complaint

(d) In August 1955, a second petition signed by Negro 
parents and citizens was submitted to the Board again call­
ing for an end to racially segregated schools in Bibb 
County. The defendant Board referred this petition to a 
special committee headed by defendant Board member Mal­
lory C. Atkinson. To plaintiffs’ knowledge, no action by 
this Board was ever made public.

(e) In February 1961, the Macon Council on Human Re­
lations, an interracial group, appealed to the defendant 
Board to study the school situation for the purpose of 
initiating desegregation of the public schools.

(f) In or about March 1963, a group of Negro citizens, 
including some of the plaintiffs, again petitioned the de­
fendant Board to desegregate the Bibb County public 
schools, as a result of which action, the defendant Board, 
on April 25, 1963 filed a petition seeking a declaratory 
judgment in the Bibb County Superior Court as to whether 
the Board had the power to desegregate the schools in 
view of its charter from the State which prescribes the 
operation of a system of distinct and separate schools for 
white and colored children.

(g) The Bibb Superior Court ruled that the defendant 
Board has authority under its charter to operate its schools 
on a desegregated basis. However, the Board, with four 
members dissenting, adopted a Resolution stating that any 
decision to change the present segregated operation of the 
Bibb County public schools must be left to the federal 
courts, and reaffirming the Board’s “ . . . sincere and deep 
conviction that integration of the races in the public schools 
of Bibb County will be detrimental to both the colored and 
white races, and the entire county. The responsibility for 
and consequences of any such action rests upon others 
than this Board.”



9

Complaint

6.

Plaintiffs allege that the policy, custom, practice and 
usage of the defendant Board in requiring the minor plain­
tiffs and other Negro children similarly situated to attend 
racially segregated schools in Muscogee County violates 
rights secured to plaintiffs and others similarly situated by 
the equal protection and due process clauses of the Four­
teenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States 
and Title 42, United States Code, Section 1983.

7.
Plaintiffs and other Negro citizens have made every 

effort, as set forth above, to communicate their dissatisfac­
tion with segregated schools to the defendant Board but to 
no avail. Indeed, the defendant Board is now on record as 
opposing any desegregation of the Muscogee County pub­
lic schools, and refusing to initiate desegregation unless 
such action is required by order of the federal courts.

8.

Plaintiffs and each of them and those similarly situated 
have suffered and will continue to suffer irreparable in­
jury and harm caused by the acts of the defendant Board 
herein complained of. They have no plain, adequate or 
complete remedy to redress these wrongs other than this 
suit for injunctive relief. Any other remedy would be 
attended by such uncertainties and delays as to deny sub­
stantial relief, would involve a multiplicity of suits, cause 
further irreparable injury and occasion damage, vexation 
and inconvenience to the plaintiffs and those similarly situ­
ated.



10

Complaint

W herefore , plaintiffs respectfully pray that this Court 
grant the following relief:

1. Advance this cause on the docket and order a speedy 
hearing of plaintiffs’ motion for preliminary injunction 
which is filed simultaneously with the filing of this com­
plaint and grant the relief prayed for therein.

2. Order a speedy trial of the merits of this case.
3. Upon the conclusion of the trial, issue a permanent 

injunction forever restraining and enjoining the defen­
dants, the Bibb County School Board, its members, em­
ployees and successors, and the Superintendent of Schools 
of Bibb County, his agents, employees and successors, and 
all persons in active concert and participation with the de­
fendants from:

(a) continuing to operate a dual school system in Bibb 
County, Georgia, based wholly upon the race and color of 
the children attending school in Bibb County;

(b) continuing to assign children to school in Bibb 
County on the basis of race and color;

(c) continuing to assign teachers, principals, supervisors 
and other professional school personnel to the schools of 
Bibb County on the basis of race and color of the person- 
ney to be assigned and the race and color of the children 
attending the particular school to which the assignment 
is made;

(d) continuing to designate certain schools as Negro 
schools and white schools;

(e) continuing to appropriate funds, approve curricula 
and extra-curricular activities and other school programs



11

Complaint

which are limited on the basis of race or discriminatory on 
the basis of race;

(f) continuing to construct schools which are to be lim­
ited to attendance by one or the other racial group;

(g) making any other distinctions based wholly upon 
race and color and in the operation of the public school 
system of Bibb County.

In the alternative, plaintiffs pray that this Court direct 
defendants to submit a complete plan, within a period of 
time to be determined by this Court, for the reorganiza­
tion of the entire school system of Muscogee County, 
Georgia, into a unitary non-racial system which shall in­
clude a plan for the reassignment of all children presently 
attending the public schools of Bibb County on a non-racial 
basis and which will provide for the future assignment of 
children to school on a non-racial basis, the assignment of 
teachers, principals, supervisors and other professional 
school personnel on a non-racial basis, the elimination of 
racial designations as to schools, the elimination of all 
racial designations in the budgets, appropriations for 
school expenditures, and all plans for the construction of 
schools, and the elimination of racial restrictions on certain 
curricula and extra-curricular school activities, and the 
elimination of any other racial distinction in the operation 
of the school system in Bibb County which is based wholly 
upon race and color.

4. Plaintiffs pray that this Court retain jurisdiction of 
this case pending the transition to a unitary non-racial sys­
tem.

5. Plaintiffs pray that this Court will grant them their 
costs herein, reasonable attorney fees for those counsel re­
questing same, and grant such other, further, additional



12

Complaint

or alternative relief as may appear to a court of equity to 
be equitable and just.

D onald L. H ollowell

859V2 Hunter Street, N. W. 
Atlanta 14, Georgia

T homas J ackson

845 Forsyth Street 
Macon, Georgia

J ack Gbeenbebg 
Constance B a k es  M otley 
D ebbick  A. B ell , J b .

Suite 2030
10 Columbus Circle
New York, New York 10019

Attorneys for Plaintiffs



13

Motion for Preliminary Injunction
[C aption Om itted ]

Plaintiffs move this Court for a preliminary injunction, 
pending the final disposition of this cause, and as grounds 
therefor rely upon the allegations of their complaint and 
show the following:

1. Plaintiffs continue to he assigned and forced to at­
tend racially segregated schools operated by the defendants 
pursuant to state policy, practice, custom, and usage as 
set forth in the complaint.

2. Plaintiffs’ constitutional rights are violated by such 
assignment and attendance at racially segregated schools.

3. Plaintiffs and other Negro citizens have petitioned 
the defendants in vain to initiate desegration of the Bibb 
County public schools in compliance with the United States 
Supreme Court school desegregation decision of 1954.

4. Defendants are now on record as favoring the main­
tenance of segregated schools, notwithstanding the deci­
sion of the United States Supreme Court in 1954, and have 
given notice that they will not initiate desegregation unless 
ordered to do so by the federal courts.

5. Plaintiffs are irreparably harmed by the defendant 
Board’s continued failure either to desegregate the public 
schools under its jurisdiction or submit a plan for the re­
organization of said school system on a unitary nonracial 
basis, and, in addition to the desegregation plan finally 
approved by this Court, should be admitted upon request 
to the nearest white school at the beginning of the second 
semester of the 1963-64 school year.



14

Motion for Preliminary Injunction

W herefore , plaintiffs respectfully pray that this Court 
advance this cause on the docket and order a speedy hear­
ing of this action according to law and after such hearing:

1. Enter a decree enjoining defendants from refusing 
to admit each of the plaintiffs upon request at the beginning 
of the second semester of the 1963-64 school year to the 
nearest white school to their residences which they are 
eligible by grade to attend;

2. Enter a decree enjoining defendants, their agents, 
employees, successors, attorneys, and all persons in active 
concert and participation with them from: (1) maintaining 
a dual scheme or pattern of school zone lines or attendance 
area lines based on race and color, (2) assigning pupils to 
schools in Bibb County on the basis of race and color of 
the pupils, (3) assigning teachers, principals and other 
professional school personnel to the Bibb County schools 
on the basis of race and color of the person assigned and 
the race and color of the children attending the school to 
which such personnel is to be assigned, (4) approving 
budgets, making available funds, approving employment 
and construction contracts, and approving policies, cur­
ricula and programs designed to perpetuate or maintain 
or support compulsory racially segregated schools.

In the alternative, plaintiffs pray that this Court enter 
a decree directing defendants to present a complete plan, 
within a period of time to be determined by this Court, 
for the reorganization of the entire school system of Bibb 
County into a unitary nonraeial system which shall include 
a plan for the assignment of children on a nonraeial basis; 
the assignment of teachers, principals and other profes­
sional school personnel on a nonraeial basis; the drawing 
of school zone or attendance area lines on a nonraeial basis;



15

Motion for Preliminary Injunction

the allotment of funds, the construction of schools, the 
approval of budgets on a nonracial basis; and the elimina­
tion of any other discrimination in the operation of the 
school system or in the school curricula which are based 
solely upon race and color. Plaintiffs pray that if this 
Court directs defendants to produce a desegregation plan 
that this Court will retain jurisdiction of this ease pending 
court approval and full and complete implementation of 
defendants’ plan.

Plaintiffs pray that this Court will allow them their 
costs herein, reasonable attorney fees for those counsel 
requesting same, and grant such further, other, additional 
or alternative relief as may appear to the Court to be equi­
table and just.

D onald L. H ollowell

859% Hunter Street, N. W. 
Atlanta 14, Georgia

T homas J ackson

845 Forsyth Street 
Macon, Georgia

J ack Greenberg

C onstance B aker M otley

D errick  A. B ell , J r .
Suite 2030 
10 Columbus Circle 
New York 19, New York

Attorneys for Plaintiffs



16

Answ er

[C aption  Om itted ]

Come now all of the defendants in the above case and for 
answer to the complaint respectfully sho w:

First Defense

1.
Defendant Board of Education, herein for convenience 

referred to as the Board, is a body politic and corporate 
created and operating as a corporation under a charter 
from the State of Georgia. Its correct corporate name is 
the Board of Public Education and Orphanage for Bibb 
County, and it has full power and authority to sue and be 
sued by said name and style.

2.

The Board, as distinguished from its individual mem­
bers, is the corporate body charged with the direction and 
control of public education in Bibb County, Georgia, and 
is the only necessary or proper party defendant in this 
proceeding.

3.
The Board admits the jurisdiction of this court, both 

as to parties and subject matter, and admits that plaintiffs 
as representatives of the class of minor Negro children in 
whose behalf they sue adequately represent such class 
and are entitled in this proceeding to such order of this 
court as will adequately protect the rights, privileges and 
immunities of said class, taking into account the adminis­
trative and other problems of the Board incident to the 
granting of such protection.



17

Answer

4.
As in the ease of any other corporation the orders and 

judgments of this court in a proceeding in which the Board 
is the only party defendant will effectively constrain the 
individual members of the Board and its officers and em­
ployees.

W herefore , defendants move that the complaint be 
dismissed as to all defendants other than the Board.

Second Defense
1.

Defendants admit that the plaintiffs named in paragraph 
3 of the complaint are with negligible exceptions eligible 
to attend the public schools of Bibb County and are pres­
ently enrolled in the public schools of Bibb County for 
the 1963-64 school year.

2.

Defendants deny, however, that any of said minor plain­
tiffs has prior to the filing of this petition ever at any time 
sought admission to any school heretofore operated for 
white children, or requested or sought transfer from the 
school to which he or she has been assigned, nor has any­
one acting in behalf of any of the minor plantiffs made 
such request.

3.
Defendants admit that the Board has heretofore main­

tained and operated separate schools for white and colored 
children, and defendants admit that on occasions prior to 
March, 1963, substantially as alleged in paragraph 5 of the



18

Answer

complaint, one or more relatively small groups of Negro 
residents of Bibb County, Georgia, have indicated to the 
Board their request as parents and citizens that the Bibb 
County school system be reorganized on a racially inte­
grated basis. Defendants admit that in or about March, 
1963, a communication signed by seven such individuals 
was received by the Board in which a meeting with the 
Board was requested for the purpose of airing certain 
grievances pertaining to public education in Macon and 
Bibb County. Said communication of March, 1963, and the 
prior communications alleged in paragraph 5 of the com­
plaint are in writing and will speak for themselves.

4.
Pursuant to the aforesaid communication of March, 

1963, after meeting with said group, and after careful and 
deliberate consideration, the Board on April 25, 1963, filed 
a petition in the Superior Court of Bibb County seeking 
a declaratory judgment as to whether the Board had the 
power under its charter from the State to operate other 
than distinct and separate schools for white and colored 
children, and on or about July 8, 1963, the judgment of 
that court was obtained that notwithstanding provisions 
of the Board’s charter to the contrary such right and power 
did exist.

5.

Prior to the decisions of the Supreme Court of the United 
States on May 17, 1954, and May 31, 1955, in Brown v. 
Board of Education, and in companion cases decided at 
the same time, the concept of separate but equal schools 
and other public facilities for white and colored children



19

Answer

was judicially accepted as constituting compliance with all 
of the requirements of the Federal Constitution, and the 
maintenance and operation of separate schools in the State 
of Georgia was actually required by the general laws of 
the State. In the light of said decisions, and following 
court decisions over a period of years thereafter, all such 
general laws of the State of Georgia requiring segregation 
of the races were repealed, and at the present time there 
are no general laws in Georgia which prevent, whether 
valid or invalid, the placing of children of different colors 
in the same school.

6.
However, there did remain until the aforesaid declara­

tory judgment of July 8, 1963, a provision in the Board’s 
charter expressly proscribing the placing of children of 
different colors in the same school by the Board, raising 
the question whether the Board had the power under its 
charter to operate other than separate schools for the 
white and colored races. While the Board realized that the 
prohibition in its charter was invalid, under decisions of 
the Supreme Court of the United States and other Federal 
Courts, the Board was uncertain whether it had the power 
from the State to act in disregard of said prohibition, or 
if it did so act whether its charter would be subject to rev­
ocation, and said declaratory judgment proceeding was 
voluntarily instituted by the Board to resolve that doubt, 
and to establish (1) that it did have the power to operate 
desegregated schools notwithstanding the prohibition in 
its charter or (2) that it did not have such power, in which 
latter event it would have followed that the Board would 
have to surrender all of its powers and responsibilities in



20
Answer

respect to public education in Bibb County, returning the 
operation of the schools in said County to the State or to 
such other agency of the State as might be established for 
that purpose. Said declaratory judgment proceeding was 
instituted by the Board in a good faith effort on the part 
of the Board to resolve and remove any impediment in the 
way of desegregating the public schools in Bibb County 
insofar as the limitations and prohibitions contained in 
the Board’s charter were concerned; with the result that 
at the present time there is no statutory or charter impedi­
ment which would prevent compliance by the Board with 
any proper order of this court.

7.

It is true that following said declaratory judgment the 
Board at a meeting on July 30, 1963, resolved by a divided 
vote that it would continue its present system of operating 
its schools. A copy of said resolution, which discloses the 
Board s reasons for such action, is attached hereto marked 
Exhibit A and is by reference made a part hereof. Said 
action was taken with the knowledge that certain Negro 
citizens, presumably to include the seven who had com­
municated with the Board in March, 1963, were preparing 
to file and would shortly file a petition in this court, as was 
actually done on August 14, 1963, though no prior peti­
tioner to the Board appears as a party plaintiff in said 
action, and in the belief that under all the facts and circum­
stances not necessary to be set forth herein it would be 
better for all concerned for the Board to act under the 
direction and continuing jurisdiction of this court than by 
voluntary ex parte action by the Board or by action by the 
Board pursuant to negotiations and agreements with a 
limited number of Negro citizens.



21

Answer

8.

Defendants aver that for reasons which will in due time 
be made to appear to the court, involving administrative 
and other problems, any general, arbitrary or immediate 
reallocation of pupils in the Bibb County school system 
would result in disorganization and would impose intol­
erable burdens upon the public school system in Bibb 
County and upon the Board and its employees.

9.
Defendants further say, specifically in response to plain­

tiffs’ motion for a preliminary injunction, that any order 
of this court at this time, either preliminary or otherwise, 
restraining and enjoining the Board in any respect would 
be premature and inappropriate pending the submission 
by the Board of a plan of desegregation and the considera­
tion of such plan by this court. Defendants say that any 
such injunction should be denied, or at least deferred for 
future consideration as the circumstances may hereafter 
warrant.

10.

Specifically answering paragraph 8 of the complaint de­
fendants say that the fact and extent of injury and harm 
to plaintiffs and those similarly situated from maintaining 
segregated schools is a matter of opinion, and the extent 
to which other similarly situated minor children share the 
opinions alleged by the plaintiffs is questionable, but since 
these are not deemed by defendants to be legitimate mat­
ters of defense they make no admissions or denials with 
respect thereto. Defendants admit that to the extent that 
plaintiffs are entitled to redress such redress should be 
afforded by this court in this proceeding.



22

Answer

11.

Defendants deny that they have been litigious, or even 
dilatory, and deny that plaintiffs are entitled to be granted 
attorneys’ fees for counsel representing them or their 
other costs herein.

W herefore , defendants pray that the injunctive relief 
sought by the plaintiffs be denied, and that such direction 
be given by the court as to the court may seem meet and 
proper with respect to the formulation and submission 
of a plan to be prepared and submitted by the Board for 
the court’s approval.

Respectfully submitted,

C. B axter J oktes 
1007 Persons Building 

Macon, Georgia
Attorney for Defendants

[Certificate Omitted]



23

EXHIBIT A

R esolution  o r  t h e  B oard oe P ublic  E ducation 
and Orphanage for B ibb C ounty

This Board of Education was created by Special Act 
of the General Assembly of Georgia approved August 23, 
1872. One clear provision of the Act was that the Board 
shall maintain and operate separate schools for the colored 
and white children. This has been done to this day—for 
nearly a hundred years. We believe that the wise judg­
ment of the founders of this Board, in directing such sepa­
rate schools, was sound in 1872 and is sound today.

Several weeks back the Board was advised and notified 
that a petition in Federal Court was forthcoming, directed 
at ending the long and successful operation of the public 
schools of Bibb County on a separate racial basis. Because 
of this advice and notification, and because of the clear 
mandate of its charter as to separate facilities for white 
and colored pupils, this Board was fearful that the Federal 
Court might order an end to such separate education of 
the races, whereby this Board could not then legally operate 
the school system of Bibb County.

In view of this impending situation facing the Board, 
the Board invoked a ruling of the State Court, Bibb Supe­
rior Court, as to the Board’s authority under its charter 
from the State to operate the Bibb school system on a 
basis other than separate facilities for the races.

The Bibb Superior Court ruled that the Board had au­
thority under its charter to operate its schools other than 
on a basis of separate schools for the races.

This ruling of Bibb Superior Court was not invoked 
for any reason other than to ascertain if this Board had 
authority to operate other than separate schools for the 
races, so that the Board would not so do, at the individual



24

Exhibit A

peril of its members if ordered to do so by the Federal 
Courts.

If the Bibb Superior Court had ruled that the mandatory 
provision in the Board’s charter, to operate only separate 
schools for the colored and white races, was such an in­
tegral part of the charter that with such provision stricken 
the Board had no authority to operate the Bibb school 
system, then this Board would be functus officio, with no 
authority to operate its schools on any basis other than 
separate facilities for the races. A judicial determination 
of this Board’s position in the matter was thus necessary, 
and was obtained.

The Supreme Court of the United States has declared 
that forced separation because of race in public schools is 
unconstitutional. That court has not ruled, and no other 
court has ruled, that any school or any school system 
operated voluntarily on a basis of separation of the races, 
or separation on any other basis, is unconstitutional, un­
desirable or repugnant to any principle or rule of law, 
society or human relations.

We realize that all members of the Federal judicial sys­
tem, the judges of the Circuit Courts of Appeals and the 
District judges, are required by law and precedent to 
adhere to the decrees of the U. S. Supreme Court.

We believe that the U. S. Supreme Court, in its school 
cases, realized that the circumstances in various localities 
and parts of the Nation, from state to state, and even within 
a state, would be different, requiring and justifying differ­
ent solutions and methods of fulfilling its decrees, even 
realizing that some systems, and its pupils and their par­
ents, might desire complete separation of the races in their 
schools. Because of this realization, the Supreme Court 
has granted local Federal Courts latitude in enforcing its



25

Exhibit A

judgments if and when the matter is submitted to such 
local courts.

The Federal District Courts have, by the Supreme Court 
of the United States, been made determinators of what 
type operation of a public school system meets the require­
ments of the Supreme Court decision under the peculiar 
circumstances of any particular case, when presented to 
the court.

If this Board were to make a determination without the 
sanction and approval of the courts, its validity and lasting 
effect would be as uncertain as the weather.

Without court sanction and approval, by its order, any 
such action taken by this Board, and administrative pro­
cedures set up to put into effect, today, this week, or this 
month, wrnuld have no assurance of being effective tomor­
row, next week or next month.

We reaffirm our sincere and deep conviction, that integra­
tion of the races in the public schools of Bibb County will 
be detrimental to both the colored and white races, and 
the entire county. The responsibility for and consequences 
of any such action rests upon others than this Board.

We feel that the vast majority of both our colored and 
white citizens of Bibb County are satisfied with the present 
system of operation of our schools, and that it would be 
contrary to the wishes of such vast majority for this Board 
to make any changes in its operation.

We also feel that the public of Bibb County is entitled 
to know the position of its Board of Education in this 
matter.

T herefore, be it  resolved by the Board of Public Edu­
cation and Orphanage for Bibb County that this Board 
continue its present system of operating its schools.



O rd er o f Jan u ary  24 , 1964

[C aption  Om itted ]

In August, 1963, plaintiffs filed their petition in behalf 
of themselves and other persons similarly situated against 
the named defendants. Plaintiffs have amended their peti­
tion so as to eliminate all of the defendants except the 
Board of Public Education and Orphanage for Bibb 
County. In their petition plaintiffs made allegations to 
the effect that the defendants were operating the Public 
Schools of Bibb County, Georgia, on a “completely segre­
gated basis”, to include the assignment of pupils, teachers, 
principals, and other professional personnel, as well as 
in the use of bus transportation, the conduct of curricular 
and extra-curricular activities and school programs. Plain­
tiffs further allege that all budgets and other funds appro­
priated and expended by defendants are appropriated and 
expended by defendants separately for Negro and white 
schools. Plaintiffs, also, allege, in substance, that all efforts 
of Negroes to effect desegregation of the Bibb County 
Public School System have been to no avail, and that they, 
as well as those similarly situated, “have suffered and will 
continue to suffer irreparable injury and harm caused by 
the acts of the defendant Board herein complained of.” 
They also allege that they have no plain, adequate or com­
plete remedy to redress their wrongs other than by the 
bringing of this suit for injunctive relief, indicating that 
any other remedy would be attended by such uncertainties 
and delays as to deny substantial relief, among other 
things. Plaintiffs then pray for an injunction forever re­
straining and enjoining the defendants, the Bibb County 
School Board, its members, employees and successors, and 
the Superintendent of the Schools of Bibb County, his 
agents, employees and successors, and all persons in active 
concert and participation with the defendants from:



27

Order o f  January 24, 1964

“(a) continuing to operate a dual school system in Bibb 
County, Georgia, based wholly upon the race and color 
of the children attending school in Bibb County;

“(b) continuing to assign children to school in Bibb 
County on the basis of race and color;

“ (c) continuing to assign teachers, principals, super­
visors, and other professional school personnel to the 
schools of Bibb County on the basis of race and color 
of the personnel to be assigned and the race and color 
of the children attending the particular school to which 
assignment is made;

“ (d) continuing to designate certain schools as Negro 
schools and white schools;

“ (e) continuing to appropriate funds, approve curricu­
lar and extra-curricular activities and other school pro­
grams which are limited to attendance on the basis of 
race or discriminatory on the basis of race;

“ (f) continuing to construct schools which are to be 
limited to attendance by one or the other racial group;

“ (g) making any other distinction based wholly upon 
race and color in the operation of the public school 
system of Bibb County.”

In the alternative, “plaintiffs pray that this Court direct 
defendants to submit a complete plan, within a period of 
time to be determined by this Court, for the reorganization 
of the entire school system of Bibb County, Georgia, into 
a unitary non-racial system which shall include a plan for 
reassignment of all children presently attending the public 
schools of Bibb County on a non-racial basis and which



Order of January 24, 1964

will provide for the future assignment of children to school 
on a non-racial basis, the assignment of teachers, princi­
pals, supervisors and other professional school personnel 
on a non-racial basis, the elimination of racial designations 
as to schools, the elimination of all racial designation in 
the budgets, appropriations for school expenditures, and 
all plans for the construction of schools, and the elimina­
tion of racial restrictions on certain curricular and extra­
curricular school activities, and the elimination of any 
other racial distinction in the operation of the school sys­
tem in Bibb County which is based wholly upon race and 
color.”

The answer of the defendants admits the essential alle­
gations of jurisdiction, plaintiffs’ capacity to sue in behalf 
of themselves and as representatives of the class of minor 
Negro children similarly situated (par. 3, First Defense) 
and that the Board has in the past and presently operates 
separate schools for white and colored children in Bibb 
County (pars. 3 and 7, Second Defense).

Defendants have admitted that plaintiffs as representa­
tives of the class of minor Negro children in whose behalf 
they sue are entitled in this proceeding to such order of 
this Court as will adequately protect the rights, privileges 
and immunities of said class, taking into account the ad­
ministrative and other problems of the defendant Board 
incident to the granting of such protection, and plaintiffs 
recognize that the defendant Board should be allowed a 
reasonable period of time in bringing about the elimination 
of discrimination within the equal protection mandates of 
the Constitution.

Accordingly the defendant Board of Education is hereby 
ordered and directed to make a prompt and reasonable



29

Order o f January 24, 1964

start towards the effectuation of the transition to a racially 
non-discriminatory school system and to present to this 
Court on or before the 24th day of February, 1964, a com­
plete plan adopted by said Board which is designed to 
bring about full compliance with this order and which shall 
provide for a prompt and reasonable transition to a 
racially non-discriminatory school system in the public 
school system of Bibb County, Georgia.

Following the filing of defendant’s plan with this Court 
plaintiffs shall have twenty days to file objections to the 
plan, if any, after which this Court will set a date, place 
and time for hearing evidence and arguments of counsel 
for and against said plan and for any further order of this 
Court which may then appear meet and proper.

The court retains jurisdiction of this cause for the pur­
pose of entering such further orders or granting such 
further relief to the plaintiffs as may be necessary, specifi­
cally whether or not the defendant Board of Education 
shall be enjoined as prayed, and the scope of such injunc­
tion, and the Court reserves for further hearing all other 
rulings, decisions and protective orders of the court pend­
ing compliance by the defendant Board with the foregoing 
directive.

This 24th day of January, 1964.

United States Judge 
W . A. B ootle



30

F lan  o f B oard  o f P ub lic  E ducation  and  O rphanage fo r  
B ibb County P u rsu a n t to  C ourt O rd er o f 

Jan u ary  2 4 , 1 9 6 4

[C aption  Om itted ]

This Plan is submitted by the Board of Public Education 
and Orphanage for Bibb County in compliance with the 
order of this court in the above stated case.

As indicated by its pleadings heretofore tiled the Board 
has traditionally maintained and operated separate schools 
for white and Negro children in the exercise of its direction 
and control of public education in Bibb County. In so doing 
the Board has been diligent to insure that the separate 
facilities so provided would be equal. The Board has taken 
and now takes pride in the quality and adequacy of the 
public education which it has provided, without distinction 
as between the races, and particularly takes pride in the 
spirit of harmony and cooperation which has prevailed 
among all elements in the county in the accomplishment 
within the separate but equal doctrine of a superior educa­
tional system for the benefit of all eligible school children 
of the county.

Describing generally the local system as it exists today, 
there are no school districts as such within the county for 
either white or Negro children. The authority to designate 
the school or schools to be attended, with the correspond­
ing duty, is vested in the Superintendent, subject to estab­
lished procedures relating to transfers, none of which is 
based on race distinctions except as such distinction is 
implicit in the fact that separate schools are provided for 
the separate races. It is true, however, that the Superin­
tendent is generally guided by recognized residential areas 
in placing children in the grammar schools and children 
progressing from a grammar school to a high school are



31

Defendant Board’s Plan for Desegregation

generally placed in high school on the basis of the grammar 
school from which they graduate. From time to time these 
areas are changed or redefined as population or school 
census figures shift within the county. It is the eventual 
plan of the Board to establish a single unitary system of 
residential areas for school placement, without distinction 
as to race, but this cannot be accomplished immediately.

In the meantime, and for some time, the Board has fol­
lowed a policy of avoiding references to race in its records, 
publications and designations, and will continue this policy. 
Nevertheless, for identification and other essential pur­
poses it is not possible to eliminate all such designations 
except as an ultimate objective.

While Negro teachers are traditionally assigned to 
schools for Negro children and white teachers to schools 
for white children, no distinction based on race is made in 
the facilities provided for the several schools or in the 
appropriation or expenditure of available funds. The uni­
form salary schedule applied usually results in a higher 
average rate of compensation for Negro teachers than for 
white teachers.

Bus transportation is provided for the school which the 
pupil is attending, and is provided on a separate basis only 
to the extent that the schools are separate. For practical 
purposes this is absolute at the present time, but it will not 
remain so as both white and Negro children attend the 
same school.

The Board considers it utterly impracticable at the pres­
ent time, or within the near future, to reassign teachers, 
principals and other professional personnel on any basis 
different from the present practice, and does not include 
in this plan any proposal to do so. As the plan progresses 
that may become partially or wholly practicable and will



32

Defendant Board’s Plan for Desegregation

be studied and considered when the time seems appropri­
ate.

It is implicit in the subject which is dealt with in this 
proposal that upon the first step being taken in accordance 
with the plan hereby proposed, or even in anticipation 
thereof, frictions and conflicts may arise of more or less 
severity, but the Board is resolved and pledges itself to 
act with responsible planning and with continuing and 
complete obedience to the orders and directions of this 
court in bringing about the transitions herein proposed. 
The Board anticipates the full cooperation of the enforce­
ment officers of the local and state governments, and will 
lend its best effort to creating a climate which will avoid, 
or as far as possible minimize, any disruption of the school 
program by reason of such possible frictions or conflicts.

It is the carefully considered opinion of the Board that 
any plan submitted by or imposed upon the Board should 
be implemented gradually over a reasonable period of time, 
and in progressive steps starting at the 12th grade and 
thereafter extending at successive intervals to the 1st 
grade, eventually including the entire system.

The vocational school program in Bibb County is admin­
istered by the local Board as an agency of the State Board, 
and the Board has neither the full responsibility nor the 
duty with respect to the vocational system as it has with 
reference to the public school system in Bibb County. 
Nevertheless the Board feels that the vocational schools in 
Bibb County should be included and dealt with in this plan. 
In keeping with the traditional separate school pattern 
classes and programs for vocational training have gener­
ally been separately provided for white and Negro trainees, 
but this distinction has not been rigidly followed and is 
not absolute at the present time. It is a part of the pro-



33

Defendant Board’s Plan for Desegregation

posed plan that no applicant will be denied admission in 
the future to any vocational program under the control of 
the Board, or transfer from one program to another, solely 
because of his or her race.

In the light of the foregoing, and in accordance there­
with, the following plan is submitted:

P L A N
(1) The responsibility for and the duty of designating 

the school or schools to be attended within the system will 
continue to be vested in the Superintendent, subject to the 
responsibility and duty of the Board to give overall direc­
tion and supervision and to the Board’s final jurisdiction 
on appeal from a decision of the Superintendent.

(2) No immediate change will be made in the identifica­
tion of residential areas or in the identification of the high 
school to which pupils graduating from the several gram­
mar schools are assigned, though these designations are 
subject to change from time to time as availability of space 
and pupil distribution among the existing schools make 
necessary. Except as indicated by subsequent paragraphs 
hereof, the present policies and procedures of the system 
will be continued with respect to the placement of pupils 
entering the system and with respect to the transfer of 
pupils within the system. Pupils will register for new 
terms at the school which they last attended. The proce­
dures presently in effect will from time to time be reviewed 
and from time to time revised, to provide adequate or more 
adequate opportunity for the pupils or their parents or 
guardians to express their preferences, whether upon enter­
ing the system for the first time or in respect to transfers, 
to the end that all such expressions of preference will be



34

Defendant Board’s Plan for Desegregation

speedily considered and acted upon. They will provide full 
implementation of the plan and as set forth in paragraphs 
(4) and (6) hereof will be applied without distinction or 
discrimination because of race.

(3) In acting upon pupil requests for original assign­
ments or for transfers the Superintendent will take into 
account the factors which presently guide him in the place­
ment of pupils and those which are in accordance with 
sound and generally observed practices in the field of pub­
lic school education throughout the country, with a view to 
the establishment, maintenance and operation of a public 
school system in Bibb County of the highest attainable 
caliber and quality for the benefit of all of the children of 
the county, and with a view toward the eventual elimina­
tion of compulsory racial segregation in all grades within 
the system.

(4) The Board will establish a period beginning at a 
date to be announced following the date of the order ap­
proving this plan and ending thirty days thereafter as the 
period in which written applications will be received for 
transfers and reassignments from one school in the system 
to the 12th grade of another school in the system for the 
school year 1964-65, and will prepare and supply written 
forms for that purpose together with a statement of the 
rules of procedure applicable thereto. Said forms and 
rules will set forth the information required to be fur­
nished with such applications and the time within which 
such apxjlications will be evaluated and either approved or 
disapproved by the Superintendent. They will provide for 
written notice of the Superintendent’s action and will in­
form the applicant with respect to his or her rights to ad­
ministrative review or appeal. All such applications will



35

Defendant Board’s Plan for Desegregation

be processed and acted upon without distinction based 
solely on race. Pupils first entering the system in the 1964- 
65 school year in the 12th grade in the system will be af­
forded without distinction based solely on race the oppor­
tunity to request original assignment to the school of their 
choice in accordance with presently established procedure.

(5) The Board will establish a committee or group of 
not less than six (6) or more than eight (8) members com­
posed of principals or other teaching or administrative 
personnel of the various schools in the system, to consist 
of an equal number of white and Negro members, which 
will be recognized as a recommendatory committee with 
which the Superintendent of the school system or other 
administrative personnel designated by the Superintendent 
will discuss and consider proposals, suggestions, complaints 
and other matters involving this plan. This committee will 
fix and determine its own meeting dates, or it may be called 
into meeting by the Superintendent, to consider and discuss 
any matter it may consider advisable concerning this plan, 
with authority to make recommendations to the Superin­
tendent, and through him to the Board, but this authority 
is not to supersede any other existing authority within the 
system.

(6) This plan will be applied without distinction based 
on race in all 12th grades in the system for the school year 
1964-65. It will thereafter be similarly applied in all 11th 
and 10th grades for 1965-66, all 9th grades for 1966-67, all 
8th grades for 1967-68, all 7th grades for 1968-69, all 6th 
and 5th grades for 1969-70, all 4th grades for 1970-71, all 
3rd and 2nd grades for 1971-72, and all 1st grades for 1972- 
73; being or becoming applicable without distinction based



36

Defendant Board’s Plan for Desegregation

on race for all grades in the system within nine school years 
beginning with the year 1964-65.

By authority of the Board, this February 24, 1964.

B oard op P ublic  E ducation and 
Orphanage for B ibb County

By H. Gr. W eaver, President



37

O bjections to  P lan  o f B oard  o f P ub lic  
E ducation  and  O rphanage

[C aption  Om itted ]

Come now, the plaintiffs in the above-styled action, and 
file this their objection to the plan of defendant Board of 
Public Education and Orphanage for Bibb County which 
has been filed in this case and as grounds show:

1 .

Though paragraph 1 of the Plan vests the superintendent 
with power to administrate the matter of the designation 
of the respective public schools sought to be attended by 
students of Bibb County, no criteria are enumerated by 
which the superintendent is to be guided in making such 
designation; nor is there any procedure set out governing 
the appeals from the superintendent to the Board should 
there be some dissatisfaction with the designation. Also, 
there is no procedure enumerated by which one might 
appeal from the action of the. Board to the State Depart­
ment of Education.

2.

Paragraph 2 of the Plan is objected to for the reason 
that:

(a) There has been no revision in “the identification of 
residential areas or in the identification of the high school 
to which pupils graduating from the several grammar 
schools are assigned,” nor is there any suggestion that 
any change might be effected in the near future;

(b) No basic plan is reasonably established for bringing 
about a transition to a unitary non-racial system at anytime 
in the immediate future.



38

Plaintiffs’ Objections to Board’s Desegregation Plan

3.
Paragraph 3 of the Plan mentions factors to be taken 

in account by the superintendent in granting or refusing 
to grant requests for re-assignment without spelling out 
what those general factors are. Thus, the provisions of 
said paragraph are so general as to have little meaning.

4.
The provisions of paragraph 4 appear to place the bur­

den of initiating some change in the present system upon 
those seeking transfers without the defendants themselves 
initiating any real action in revising the present dual 
system.

5.
The provisions of paragraph 5 of the Plan is too general 

and establishes no time limitations on the proposed action 
by the Board relative to recommendations, proposals and 
suggestions from a committee or group referred to in said 
paragraph. It is conceivable that such proposed action 
could take many months and serve only to delay the prep­
aration of an effective and reasonable plan.

6.

The provisions of paragraph 6 of the Plan purports to 
permit eight years for the total desegregation of the Public 
School System of Bibb County, whereas, it has been ten 
years since the handing down of the 1964 Supreme Court 
Decision concerning public school education. Thus, the 
defendants’ proposal that some eighteen years after the 
handing down of the decision as being a reasonable time for 
the completion of desegregation of the public schools of



39

Plaintiffs’ Objections to Board’s Desegregation Plan

Bibb County is entirely inconsistent with reason or neces­
sity, and is therefore objectionable.

7.

Because of the gross inadequacy of the Plan, and because 
there are other more specific objections which plaintiffs 
expect to make, it is respectfully requested that this Court 
set a day and time certain for a hearing on these and other 
objections which the plaintiffs may present.

W herefore , plaintiffs pray that this Court set a day 
and time certain for a hearing on the objections filed.

This 16th day of March, 1964.

[Signatures and Certificate Omitted]



40

P lain tiffs’ P lan  o f D esegregation

[C aption  Om itted ]

The following plan for initiating desegregation of the 
Bibb County, Georgia, public schools was prepared by 
plaintiffs to provide this Court with a method of effectu­
ating plaintiffs’ objections to the desegregation plan sub­
mitted by the defendant Board of Education.

Preliminary Statement
It is the experience of plaintiffs’ counsel that the deseg­

regation of public schools by grades according to uni- 
racial zone lines, while perhaps ultimately necessary to a 
truly desegregated system, does not, as administered dur­
ing the initial years, achieve such desegregation:

1. White pupils, even when residing close to Negro 
schools are, through one administrative procedure or an­
other, not required to attend Negro schools.

2. Negro students within the grades being desegregated 
are not required to attend white schools located in the 
zones of their residence unless the Negro parents express 
their desire for such assignments, and even then must fre­
quently meet criteria, standards, and tests not applied to 
white students assigned to such schools as a matter of 
course.

3. The number of students desiring desegregated assign­
ments during the initial years is generally small, and since 
only those desiring such assignments receive them, there 
is no justification for restricting such requests to only one 
or two grades, or in any way limiting the right of such 
applicants, including usually most of the plaintiffs, to 
obtain assignments to desegregated schools.

For these reasons, plaintiffs respectfully submit that 
the following plan will meet their objections to the Board’s



41

Plaintiffs’ Plan of Desegregation

plan and, more importantly, insure that desegregation is 
initiated in the public schools of Bibb County during the 
forthcoming 1964-65 school year in a manner acceptable to 
plaintiffs and not disruptive to the operation of the schools.

Plaintiffs’ Plan Of Desegregation
By appropriate means, the parents of all students in 

the public schools in Bibb County, Georgia, shall be notified 
of their right to seek and obtain desegregated assignments 
for the 1964-65 school year. The Board shall provide appli­
cation forms for such assignments and provide a reason­
able time in which the application forms shall be completed 
and returned to the Board.

The application forms shall enable the parents to request 
a first and second choice of schools, with the understanding 
that if bona fide problems of school capacity or transpor­
tation render inadvisable assignment to the school of the 
first choice, the child shall be assigned to the school of the 
second choice. Administrative problems of assignment may 
be solved by the Board as long as all students requesting 
desegregated assignment are granted same.

Students entering the public schools for the first time 
shall have the right to seek and obtain desegregated assign­
ment on a basis no different than that set forth above for 
students presently in the system.

This plan does not prevent the Board from initiating, or 
the plaintiffs from urging at appropriate times prior to 
the beginning of subsequent school year's, the initiation of: 
(1) general desegregated assignments according to uni- 
racial zone lines; (2) faculty desegregation; or (3) other 
measures required to bring about a completely desegre­
gated system of schools in Bibb County.

[Signatures and Certificate Omitted]



42

T ran sc rip t o f H earing

[C aption  Om itted ]

Non-jury before:
H onorable W. A. B ootle,

United States District Judge.
at Macon, Georgia, 
April 13-14, 1964.

A p p e a r a n c e s :
For Plaintiffs:

H ollo w ell , W ard, M oore & A lexander,
859i/2 Hunter St. N. W.,
Atlanta, Ga. 30314
Mr. D onald L. H ollowell, of counsel.

For Defendants:
J ones, S parks, B enton  & Cork,

1007 Persons Building,
Macon, Georgia.
M r . C. B axter J ones, of counsel.

Reported by Claude J oiner , J r., Official Reporter, U. S. 
Court, Middle District of Georgia, P. 0. Box 94, Macon, Ga.

Macon, Georgia, April 13, 1964 
9 :40 A.M.

The Court: Gentlemen, we have the case of Shirley 
Bivins, et al. against The Board of Public Education of 
Bibb County. I think the name was finally corrected in the 
subsequent pleadings.



43

Issues Outlined

The letter to counsel stated that this hearing was for 
the purpose of hearing objections and arguments of coun­
sel with respect to the proposed plan. That language was 
lifted from the pre-trial order. I take it that this is really 
the final hearing in this case, insofar as a school ease ever 
has a final hearing, as distinguished from preliminary 
motions and applications for preliminary injunction, and 
so forth?

Mr. Jones: I think that’s correct, Your Honor. Possibly 
I might qualify that to this extent: Actually, this hearing 
is set to consider the plan which has been submitted and 
objections thereto, and evidence and arguments pertaining 
to the plan itself.

It so happens that there is a minimum of dispute be­
tween the parties as to the facts on which the complaint 
was based. Your Honor may recall, or I ’m not certain 
that you’ve, had the opportunity to read the pleadings at 
all, but you may recall that the Defendant Board of Edu­
cation admitted that it had, up until this time, been oper­
ating a segregated school system.

Furthermore, the Defendant Board admitted that the 
Plaintiffs as representative of the class were entitled to 
relief by reason of that fact.

Therefore, I assume that what we’re now doing is pre­
senting evidence which bears upon the plan, and not evi­
dence essentially which bears upon any controversy that 
may have existed between the parties, absent admissions 
and general agreement between the parties as to the facts 
on which the complaint is based; and in that posture, I ’m 
also assuming that the Board is the moving party at this 
hearing and we will proceed on that basis, unless there 
is some question raised as to it.



44

Burden of Proof

The Court: Mr. Hollowell, do you have any objection 
to the Board being the moving party?

Mr. Hollowell: May it please the Court, it just seems 
somewhat an anomaly to me that the Board would be the 
moving party, inasmuch it is my understanding that this 
is a hearing for the purpose of making objections to the 
plan, as it has been submitted. I would rather think that 
it would be the other way around.

The Board has done that which the Court directed in 
its order, insofar as it has brought in a plan. That is not 
to say that we would go along with the idea that they have 
done what the Court directed from the standpoint of the 
compass of the plan. I think it would be just the reverse, 
as I see it, sir.

Insofar as the other matters are concerned—I said “com­
pass” but I  meant “scope” of the plan—insofar as the 
other matters are concerned, I think I agree with counsel 
that the basic essentials from the standpoint of the suit 
itself have been admitted; so, that there is nothing that I 
see that would need to be submitted, unless it relates to the 
basis for the plan or something that is referred to in the 
plan which might call for evidence of a contrary nature, 
in order to set out effectively what our contentions are; 
but, other than that, sir, I most certainly agree.

Mr. Jones: May I add to my remarks ?
The Court: Yes sir.
Mr. Jones: In the first place, Your Honor, I think a 

more orderly presentation of this case can be made by the 
Board proceeding. That is my first premise.

Secondly, if we accept the position that we now have 
presented a plan and that the question is upon the approval 
of that plan, then it’s no different from any other proceed­
ing in which a propounder of a will finds himself with



45

Burden of Proof

caveators objecting to it, or a plaintiff in an ordinary case 
finds himself with the defendant objecting to it.

I do not think that this hearing is on the objections. I 
think the hearing is on the plan and, while, of course, I ’m 
subject to the Court’s direction, I still think it would be 
proper and more effective procedure for the Board to 
proceed in the first instance.

The Court: Well, as a matter of fact, the areas of dis­
agreement, as you gentlemen have indicated, have been 
narrowed considerably; so, that we have left, not the ques­
tion of whether the Plaintiffs are entitled to relief, but to 
how much relief, and to what relief. That results from the 
admissions which have been made.

The Defendant was ordered to present a plan; such plan 
has been presented. The pre-trial order provided that then, 
if there were objections, a hearing would be had upon those 
objections with such evidence as might be heard.

I don’t know that it makes a great deal of difference who 
assumes the burden of proof but, if the Plaintiffs want it, 
I think I ’ll let them have it.

Mr. Hollowell: May it please the Court, I think the 
preliminary remarks which I might have made have already 
been made for the record dealing with the matter of the 
plan itself.

The Court: Now, let me make this suggestion for the 
information of counsel: The question, in addition to what— 
well, included in the question of what relief the Plaintiffs 
are entitled to, includes the question of an injunction, if 
an injunction is necessary.

Mr. Hollowell: Bight.
The Court: So, I take it that is before the Court at this 

time?
Mr. Hollowell: Yes sir.



46

Objections to Plan

The Court: Very well.
Mr. Hollowell: May it please the Court, in the Court’s 

pre-trial order a portion of the prayer of the Plaintiffs was 
a recital. Therein there was a request that this Board be 
enjoined from continuing to operate a dual school system in 
Bibb County, based wholly upon the race and color of 
children attending school in Bibb County, or continuing 
to assign children to school in Bibb County on the basis 
of race or color, and continuing to assign teachers and 
principals and supervisors and other professional school 
personnel to the schools of Bibb County based upon race 
or color, or continuing to designate certain schools as Negro 
and white, or continuing to appropriate funds or approve 
funds for curricular and extracurricular activities and 
other school programs, and from continuing to con­
struct schools which are to be limited to attendance by one 
or the other racial group, and making any other distinctions 
based wholly upon race.

And in the alternative the Board was directed to bring 
in a complete plan, and I emphasize the word “complete”, 
within a period of time to be determined by the Court, 
which was done; for the reorganization of the entire school 
system into a unitary non-racial system, which would in­
clude a plan for reassignment of all children, etcetera as 
set out by the order.

Now, I submit, Your Honor, that there has not been 
a complete plan as is requested in the order and directed 
by the order, and particularly on page 4 thereof, where it 
says: “Accordingly the defendant Board of Education is 
hereby ordered and directed to make a prompt and reason­
able start towards the effectuation of the transition to a 
racially non-discriminatory school system and to present 
to this Court on a given date a complete plan, adopted by



47

Objections to Plan

said Board, which is designed to bring about full compli­
ance with this order and which shall provide for a prompt 
and reasonable transition to a racially non-discriminatory 
school system in the public school system of Bibb County, 
Georgia.”

Now, Tour Honor, I think a casual look at the plan and 
the objections thereto would show that, not only was this 
not done, but also that it was not even intended that it be 
done.

I call the Court’s attention to page 3 of the plan, or even 
before that, Your Honor, page 2, beginning with the second 
sentence of the initial paragraph, where it says:

“The authority to designate the school or schools to 
be attended, with the corresponding duty, is vested 
in the Superintendent, subject to established proce­
dures relating to transfers, none of which is based on 
race distinctions, except as such distinction is implicit 
in the fact that separate schools are provided for the 
separate races.”

So, I say, even in the preamble to the plan, Tour Honor, 
the Board tells us that this plan is one which, in effect, en­
compasses separate schools based upon race; and, if it’s 
in the preamble, certainly there is no question about the 
fact that it is in the plan itself.

Now, the Board gives lip service to the idea of a single 
unitary system in the last sentence of that paragraph where 
it says, “It is the eventual plan of the Board to establish 
a single unitary system of residential areas for school 
placement, without distinction as to race, but this cannot 
be accomplished immediately.”



48

Objections to Plan

Well, we submit, Your Honor, that the plan which they 
have propounded here does not purport to set up any such 
system, nor does it make a beginning toward the setting 
up of any such system, because when we look through the 
plan, Your Honor, we find that at the end of the period 
which is designated by the Board, all we have is a mere 
transfer plan.

If I might take it up by paragraphs, Your Honor, refer­
ring to the first paragraph of the Plan. I am looking at 
our objections there. We state that the plan vests the 
Superintendent with authority or power to administer the 
matter of the designation of the respective public schools 
sought to be attended by the students of Bibb, but no cri­
teria are enumerated by which the Superintendent is to be 
guided in making such designation; nor is there any pro­
cedure for appeal from the Superintendent to the Board 
and from the Board on to the State Department of Educa­
tion.

I would have submitted, Your Honor, or I would submit 
that seemingly, if they were going to bring in a complete 
plan, they would have also set up some administrative 
procedures that would complement the plan. This plan 
doesn’t begin to do so, even as it is set up.

In paragraph 2, Your Honor, the plan recites specifically, 
“No immediate change will be made in the identification of 
residential areas, or in the identification of the high school 
to which pupils graduating from the several grammar 
schools are assigned, though these designations are sub­
ject to change from time to time. . . . Except as indicated 
by subsequent paragraphs.”

So, the Board says, “We are going to keep the same seg­
regated pattern in the grammar schools, with the same 
racial designations from the standpoint of the areas, which



49

Objections to Plan

means that all persons in grammar school, according to 
this plan, will be assigned to Negro schools and will come 
from the areas that have been designated as racial areas 
from which this school is to draw.

Then, it sets np the system of how they are going to 
do that. On page 4 of the plan, Your Honor, and 5—we 
were on 4 but we move on to 5—particularly as it relates 
to paragraph 4 on page 5. It says, “The Board will estab­
lish a period beginning at a date to be announced following 
the date of the order approving this plan and ending thirty 
days thereafter as the period in which written applications 
will be received for transfers and reassignments from one 
school in the system to the 12th grade of another school 
in the system for the school year 1964-65.”

Anri then it goes on to recite that it will set up certain 
types of forms for this purpose.

I call the Court’s attention particularly to the last para­
graph, or the last sentence of paragraph 4, where the Board 
says, “Pupils first entering the system in the 1964-65 school 
year in the 12th grade in the system will be afforded with­
out distinction based solely on race the opportunity to 
request original assignment to the school of their choice 
in accordance with presently established procedure.”

Well, I don’t knowT what “presently established proce­
dures” are in this particular situation.

The Court: That might be developed at this hearing, 
might it, if there’s question about that?

Mr. Jones: May it please Your Honor, may I interrupt 
counsel for just a moment? I ’m quite confused as to the 
procedure which we’re following. Up to the present time 
I ’ve been unable to recognize whether counsel is making 
an opening statement of his position, to be followed in the 
usual course by evidence and concluding argument, or



50

Objections to Plan

whether he is making a concluding argument on the case. 
If it’s the latter, then it seems to me it’s quite premature, 
aside from any other question.

We anticipate, before this hearing is concluded, that our 
plan will be fully explained. We have in mind using several 
witnesses for that purpose. And then possibly some of 
these matters which counsel is now questioning would be 
clarified or at least could be better argued then.

Specifically, my interruption of counsel—and I apologize 
for it but I felt that it was necessary—my interruption 
of counsel was to find out whether we are in the concluding 
argument stage of this case at this time or whether we are 
in some more preliminary stage?

The Court: Well, I doubt that we’re in the concluding 
argument stage, and I imagine he’s simply stating his ob­
jections to the plan.

Mr. Hollowell: This is basically so, Your Honor. Right 
now we don’t plan to argue the law but to indicate to the 
Court what we consider to be our objections to this given 
plan.

We submit, Your Honor, that the only place in the whole 
plan that gives rise to any actual desegregation is the last 
paragraph or the last sentence of paragraph 4 of the plan, 
which I have just read; and we would ask that the Court 
take particular cognizance of that fact.

And as to paragraph 5, Your Honor, we submit that the 
Board should have already done what it says that it pro­
poses to do from the standpoint of implementation of the 
plan, so that those enumerations, those provisions, might 
also come under the scrutiny and attack of the Court in 
advance of the time that an order would be issued on the 
plan.

We submit also, Your Honor, that whereas in paragraph 
6 they purport to take some 8 years in order to be able



51

Objections to Plan

to conclude the plan, that in effect it would take about 20 
years; and, even then, there would still be only a transfer 
plan and not a non-raeial plan.

Now, if it please the Court, we would like to call the 
Superintendent to the stand, if he is here.

The Court: Mr. Gholson.
Mr. Jones: If Tour Honor please, I must register an 

objection to the Superintendent being called by counsel, 
presumably as an adverse party1?

Mr. Hollowell: That is correct, under 43(b).
Mr. Jones: For the purposes of cross examination, and 

appeal to Your Honor’s discretion not to permit it to be 
done, because we expect to use the Superintendent and to 
present various explanations of this plan in an orderly 
manner. I think it would simply disturb the hearing and 
create perhaps a chaotic condition in this hearing, if coun­
sel for the Defendant (Plaintiffs) now is to call the Super­
intendent as an adverse party; and, if the Court has any 
discretion in it, I ’m not sure that it does, it may be that 
it’s a matter of right; but I would like to register my pro­
test for the reasons which I ’ve stated.

The Court: Very well. I imagine he has the right in this 
instance. The Superintendent is at least the managing 
agent of the opposition and so far as legally—

Mr. Jones: He is actually a defendant himself, for that 
matter.

The Court: Yes. And then, of course, we have no jury; 
so, so far as confusing the Court, I don’t think the Court 
is going to get confused in this matter, any more than I ’m 
already confused. So, Mr. Gholson, take the stand.



52

Julius L. Gholson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross

M r . J u liu s  L. Gholson , a party Defendant, called by 
Plaintiffs as opposite party, being first duly sworn, testi­
fied on

Cross Examination by Mr. Hollowell:
Q. Will yon state your name, sir? A. Julius Gholson.
Q. Mr. Gholson, you are the Superintendent of the Bibb 

County Public School System, are you not? A. That’s cor­
rect.

Q. How long have you served in that capacity? A. For 
five years.

Q. What were you doing from the standpoint of profes­
sion prior to that time? A. Also in school work.

Q. I ’m sorry, sir; I didn’t hear you? A. I was also in 
school work prior to that time.

Q. Where? A. Most of the time in Bibb County.
Q. In what capacity? A. Assistant Superintendent for 

one year prior to being Superintendent; principal of two 
high schools prior to that; teacher of one of the high 
schools for about 20 years prior to that.

Q. Now, what schools, what two high schools were you 
the principal of, Mr. Gholson? A. Alexander IV Elemen­
tary School and McEvoy High School.

Q. Both of those schools are located in the City of Macon? 
A. That’s correct.

Q. Now sir, you are ex-officio a member of the Board 
of Education of this City and County, are you not? . . .  Sir? 
A. That’s correct. No, I am not a member of the Board of 
Education.

Q. I  say, ex-officio? A. No, I ’m not an ex-officio member 
of the Board of Education. As Superintendent I ’m em­
ployed to carry out the policies of the Board of Education.



53

Julius L. Gholson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross

Q. Are yon familiar with the policy of the Board of 
Education! A. I try to be.

Q. Were you present at the time that this plan, which 
has been submitted in this case, was drawn up? A. I at­
tended several meetings when the plan was discussed.

Q. Did you counsel with them in connection with the 
drafting of the plan? A. What was the question?

Q. Did you counsel with the Board in connection with 
the drafting of the plan? A. I  probably did some dis­
cussion in regard to the plan.

Q. Now, I ’ll ask you whether or not you have read and 
studied the plan? A. I have read the plan.

Q. Do you have a copy with you on the stand, or can 
you get one, so that it might be available to you? A. I 
think one could be made available.

Q. Presently, Mr. Gholson, there are no high schools or 
grade schools which are attended on a non-racial basis in 
this City, other than the vocational school, is that correct? 
A. That’s correct.

Q. Now, what is the name of the vocational school? A. 
Dudley Hughes.

Q. Is that the only vocational school that you have? 
A. No, we have Ballard-Hudson.

Q. You consider Ballard-Hudson as a vocational school, 
is that correct, as distinguished from a high school with a 
vocational section to it? A. You asked me about the adult 
program. You have adult classes at Ballard-Hudson for 
adults just as you do at Dudley-Hughes for the whites. 
That’s the reason I said we have Ballard-Hudson.

Q. I see. I don’t recollect having mentioned adults at 
all; I may be wrong? A. You said other than adult voca­
tional education.

Q. Did I say “adult vocational”? A. Yes.



54

Julius L. Gholson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross

Q. I beg your pardon. Let me ask you this question then, 
Mr. Gholson: is there any other vocational school in the 
City other than Dudley-Hughes ? A. We have a high 
school, Ballard-Hudson, which has a vocational program, 
as does Dudley Hughes. It is not primarily a vocational 
school but it has a very thorough and comprehensive voca­
tional program as part of its curriculum.

Q. Would you say that the “thorough and comprehensive 
curricula that you have in Ballard-Hudson can be equated 
to the curricula that you have in Dudley Hughes, vocation­
ally speaking? A. It would perhaps be broader and more 
varied.

Q. Let me see, which would be broader and more varied? 
A. We probably have more offerings at Ballard-Hudson 
than we do at Dudley Hughes, 2 or 3 additional subjects.

Q. Would you have any recollection as to what those 
2 or 3 additional subjects would be? A. Yes, they would 
involve the trade and business; that’s brick masonry, archi­
tectural drafting and carpentry.

Q. None of those are taught at Dudley Hughes? A. No.
Q. What is the emphasis at Dudley Hughes? A. On the 

vocational subjects that fit the needs of the community, more 
or less, such as they are at Ballard-Hudson.

Q. What do you construe them to be, basically? A. Auto 
mechanic would be one of them. You would have wood­
work. Under your industrial arts program you would have 
the various phases of vocational work that’s taught there.. 
I ’m not an expert on the vocational curriculum. I have 
someone that represents me in that capacity.

Q. Who is that person? A. That’s Mr. Kelley.
Q. Mr. who? A. Mr. Kelley. He is the Director of the 

Vocational Program.



55

Julius L. Gkolson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross

Q. Are you familiar with the technical skill areas with­
in the curriculum there, such as electronics, machine shop 
work, and this kind of thing! A. We don’t offer electronics 
in either of those high school programs.

Q. What is the highest program of electrical work which 
is offered at Dudley Hughes school? A. They would both 
be in your industrial arts program, the teaching of electric­
ity as part of those programs. We offer electronics in the 
adult vocational program and we have—that’s been inte­
grated, as you know.

Q. I see. Suppose there were some other course which 
is given at, say Ballard-Hudson, that is not given at Dudley 
Hughes, would one be able to make a transfer to Dudley or 
to Ballard Hudson? A. We have had no such request. 
As I told you, we try to set up the curriculum at each school 
based on the needs of the pupils and the demands in the com­
munity for those needs.

Q. Would you answer the question, sir? A. What was 
the question?

Q. The question was, if there was a subject, which was 
given at Ballard-Hudson which was not offered at Dudley 
Hughes, would one be able to make a transfer from one 
school, Dudley Hughes, to Ballard Hudson. A. The an­
swer is no, and let me answer more broadly. We have in­
tegration at the present time in every form, in every school, 
with the exception of your adult vocational education pro­
gram—not integration but segregation.

Q. Then, as I understand it, there is nothing within this 
plan, which seeks to change that this time, is that correct? 
A. Within which plan?

Q. In the plan which has been submitted by the Bibb 
County Board? A. There is, yes.



56

Julius L. Gholson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross

Q. What is the plan as relates to that? A. Our counsel 
wants to present the plan to you and he cannot present the 
entire plan through me.

Q. Mr. Gholson, I ’m asking you, sir, if you know what 
the plan is as relates to the vocational schools in Bibb 
County? A. The plan would be that any student in the 12th 
grade could make application to go to a school other than 
the one that they have been attending.

Q. So then, the vocational school comes within the scope 
of all of the other schools, that is high schools, that are 
the subject matter of the plan, is that correct? A. It does.

Q. So, only in the 12th grade can persons even apply for 
attendance at Dudley Hughes, say, if he had been in the 11th 
grade in Ballard-Hudson or Appling, is that correct? A. If 
he would be in the 12th grade next year, he could apply.

Q. He could apply? A. Bight.
Q. Isn’t it a fact that what he would have to do is to 

make his application to Appling or to Ballard-Hudson and 
then request a transfer? A. No, according to the details 
of the plan which will be spelled out to you in our counsel’s 
presentation, that is not true.

Q. Well, what do you understand to be the procedure? 
A. Well—

Q. I mean, you’re the one who is going to have to ad­
minister the plan, is that not correct? A. No. Well, yes, 
officially. I ’m going to designate, to delegate that to one of 
my assistants, who will be coordinator for this. But any 
student wishing to transfer from Ballard-Hudson or Ap­
pling to Dudley Hughes would make application to me at the 
Board of Education, and that application would be properly 
processed; and this procedure will be explained in detail 
to you if—



57

Julius L. Oholson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross

Q. Well, would you show me in the plan where it says 
what you have just said! A. Yes, that’s part of the plan 
over here with administrative procedures that hasn’t been 
spelled out.

Q. Well, I mean, are they written out? A. Yes, they’ll 
be supplemented.

Q. I ’m not asking—excuse me—I’m not asking, Mr. Ghol- 
son, what will be spelled out. I ’m asking about the plan 
which has been submitted, a copy of which you have. Will 
you show me in the plan where it says what you have just 
said relative to application of one wanting to go to Dudley 
Hughes Vocational School? A. All right. Look on page 5, 
paragraph 4: “The Board will establish a period beginning 
at a date to be announced following the date of the order 
approving this plan.”

Mr. Jones: Your Honor please, I  again apologize 
for interrupting: I think both the witness and coun­
sel are confused, by reason of failure to separate 
the adult vocational program from the vocational 
courses which are offered at Ballard-Hudson and at 
Dudley-Hughes; and it may help to straighten the 
situation out if that distinction could be. made both 
in the questions and the answers. I myself am con­
fused as to what the witness is saying because I don’t 
know what he’s directing his remarks to.

The Court: Very well.

By Mr. Hollowell:
Q. Well, maybe I can clear it up by asking—I mean I 

don’t have any problem at that point but if counsel thinks 
there is, I might ask this and then go back to the problem 
which we were addressing ourselves to :



58

Julius L. Gholson■—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross

Mr. Gholson, is there a daytime adult program 
at either Dudley Hughes or at Ballard-Hudson? A. There 
are a few classes for adults in the daytime for specials. If 
a group of 10 or 15 apply to take something in the daytime, 
such as making cakes or fixing hats or something, if there’s 
room available, they go ahead.and try to give it.

Q. Well, in connection with the questions that were asked, 
you do not construe the adult program to be a part of the 
regular high school program, which includes your grades 
from 12 down to what—9? A. Your senior high, 12 through 
10, and then 9 and 8 for your junior high.

Q. So then, you’re not talking about anything relating 
to the adult program when you speak about the procedure 
for one who was in the 11th grade or who is in the 11th 
grade now and who attends Ballard-Hudson now, and who 
would want to get into Dudley Hughes, come September, 
’64-65? Do you have any question about that? A. No, the 
adult vocational program is separate from your regular 
high school program.

Q. All right; now, my last question was, based upon 
the information that you had given to a question asked, was 
show me in the plan where it says that one who falls in the 
category just mentioned, a present 11th grade student 
wanting to go to Dudley Hughes next year, could apply 
directly to Dudley Hughes? You were about to point that 
out in paragraph 4? A. They would not apply directly 
to Dudley Hughes. Under the plan it has not—it is part 
of this plan but not spelled out in it—they would apply to 
the Superintendent and the Board of Education.

Q. Well, would you look at the beginning of the first 
full sentence on page 5 and see if that doesn’t show what 
the procedure is? Doesn’t it say, “Pupils will register for 
new term at the school which they last attended”? A. Yes.



Julius L. Gholson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross

Q. And that will be the procedure in all grades, even in­
cluding the 12th grade, unless a person is coming into 
the school system for the first time; isn’t that correct? A. 
No, we have pre-registration before the beginning of a new 
school year. That’s being done in some areas now. Let me 
look over the plan and I ’ll try to refer you to the proper 
place. (Witness referring to plan) . . . It says, the last 
sentence says, “They will provide full implementation of 
the plan and, as set forth in paragraphs (4) and (6) here­
of, will be applied without distinction or discrimination 
because of race.”

Q. All right, look at paragraph 4, Mr. Gholson: “The 
Board will establish a period beginning at a date to be 
announced following the date of the order approving this 
plan and ending thirty days thereafter as the period in 
which written applications will be received for transfers 
and reassignments from one school in the system to the 
12th grade of another school in the system for the school 
year 1964-65” . . . Now, doesn’t that to you import the fact 
that even in the 12th grade the individual would apply to 
the school at which he had been in attendance during the 
11th year and then would have to be transferred? A. No, 
it means that he would apply at the office first.

Q. What office? A. At the Board of Education office, 
office of the Superintendent.

Q. For what purpose? A. Read on, on page 6, 
and will prepare and supply written forms for that purpose, 
together with a statement of the rules of procedure.” And 
the rules haven’t been explained to you. They are part of 
this plan but have not been brought out into the evidence 
yet.

Q. Well, where would he get that form? A. He would 
get it from the Superintendent or his representative at the 
Board of Education.



60

Julius L. Gholson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross

Q. So, this is something that yon are saying is an adden­
dum, so to speak, to this plan but which has not been sub­
mitted; is this your contention! A. As I understand it, 
that is correct.

Q. So that, the plan does not mean what it says when 
it says back there in paragraph 4 that the persons would 
first be assigned to the school which they had been in at­
tendance at, unless they were entering the system for the 
first time! A. Well, that’s automatic. That’s just the 
policy that you go to the same school again unless you 
get a transfer.

Q. I see and the policy has been and is that all white 
students are assigned to white schools and all Negro stu­
dents to Negro schools, isn’t that correct! A. That’s cor­
rect.

Q. And nothing has been done in this plan to change that 
except to provide for a system of transfers, other than for 
persons entering the system for the first time, isn’t that 
correct! A. That’s correct.

Q. Now, you don’t have zone lines as such, is that cor­
rect! A. No, not as such.

Q. What is your substitute for zone lines! A. The 
Superintendent assigns pupils to the various schools based 
on the school capacity and the availability of transportation 
to the schools.

Q. On a racial basis! A. Yes.
Q. And there’s nothing in the plan to change that, is 

there! A. Yes, the opportunity here might change that.
Q. You mean the opportunity for them to transfer out! 

A. Yes.
Q. If they file an application to transfer and if it is ap­

proved by you as the Superintendent upon recommendation 
of the principal, is that correct! A. Well, the principal



61

Julius L. Gholson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross

gives certain information but the Superintendent would as­
sign the pupils. The pupil would be assigned, however, 
based on the capacity of the school.

Q. Well now, when you say “based on the capacity of 
the school”, you’re not suggesting that if you have an area 
where there are mixed racial students living and there is 
only one school in the immediate area and that school is 
one which is a white school, that you would assign a Negro 
child to that school, even though he might live next door, 
isn’t that true? A. If that child was in the 12th grade and 
applied for transfer and it was deemed that he met the 
criteria, we would assign that child to that school, unless 
some other school was less crowded.

Q. All right, now, if he weren’t in the 12th grade, then 
what? A. Then, according to our plan, the child would go 
to the school and grade that he’d been going to.

Q. He would go to a Negro school, even though he lived 
next door to a white school, if he was not in the 12th grade? 
A. To the school and grade which he had previously at­
tended.

Q. And vice versa would be true, would it not, Mr. 
Gholson, that if this white student lived next door to a 
Negro school, and he was not going to be in the 12th grade 
in ’64 ’65, he would not be assigned to that Negro school 
but would be assigned to the nearest white school in which 
there was sufficient space for him? Is that not true? A. 
That’s true. And Mr. Hollowell, we put that in the record 
when I answered that back quite some time ago, that we were 
segregated in every phase, except adult vocational educa­
tion.

Q. Now, insofar as the transfer is concerned, you said 
“If he meets the other criteria”. Now, what are those 
criteria? This is for transfer? A. There are certain things



62

Julius L. Gholson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross

tliat have to do with eligibility and what I just mentioned 
to yon, availability of space, capacity of the school, trans­
portation, that are part of this paragraph that will be pre­
sented.

Q. That will be presented but which has not yet been 
filed, is that correct? A. I t ’s part of the plan. It just isn’t 
spelled out in it.

Q. Well, you confuse me a little, Mr. Gholson: You 
mean by it being a part of the plan, you are talking about 
the reference which is made in paragraph—I believe it is 
4—implementing— A. Top of page 6, page 6.

Q. Yes, the implementing procedures? A. The imple­
menting procedures.

Q. I see. Have you actually prepared some implement­
ing procedures? A. Yes.

Q. Are they here in the courtroom, to your knowledge? 
A. Our attorney would have them, if they are.

Q. When were those prepared? A. During the same time 
that your plan, following the plan, to implement the plan.

Q. You don’t know why it was not filed? A. No.
Q. Well, let me ask you this about transfers: Do you 

have a copy with you of the annual report or announcements 
for ’63-64? A. I think one is available.

Mr. Jones: Here. (Mr. Jones handing copy of 
document referred to, to witness.)

By Mr. Hollowell:
Q. Let me call your attention to page 104, Mr. Gholson, 

if I might, please, and ask you to look at paragraph 2(a) 
(4), 2(b)(4); paragraph 2, sub-paragraph b-4, and let me 
ask you if that paragraph would pertain as to the plan, 
the paragraph reading: “All students transferring from



63

Julius L. Gholson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross

one school to another must present a certificate of transfer- 
issued and signed by the principal of the school from which 
the transfer is being made.”

Now, is this the standard procedure that is made refer­
ence to in the plan! A. I  believe the implementing rules 
for the plan make a slight change in this particular rule. 
This rule is put in, is utilized at the present time to keep 
one—in order to equalize the attendance; so, you would 
not have too many pupils for one reason or another trans­
ferring to another school.

Q. You mean in order to equalize the attendance? A. 
Yes.

Q. Within the racially designated schools, is that cor­
rect? A. That’s correct.

Q. Thank you. A. And that’s the administrative pro­
cedure that is used to that effect. Also, that enables a princi­
pal at the beginning of the school year during the summer 
to know about how many people would come in.

Q. Now, let me ask you this for my clarification and for 
the clarification of the record, Mr. Gholson: Suppose a 
student moves from down here in Cochran to Macon, 
Georgia, during the summer, and that student is in the 12th 
grade, having graduated in May, ’64r—from the 11th grade 
in the high school in that county: To what school can he 
apply? A. He would apply to the. Superintendent and we 
would assign him to the school of his residence and his 
transcripts and what he was taking having some bearing on 
that.

Q. Now, would he be available—or strike that and let me 
put it this way: Would any of the schools, other than Ap­
pling and Ballard be available for him to attend?

Mr. Jones: Does counsel mean to refer to the pre­
existing program or to the proposed program?



64

Julius L. Gholson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross

Mr. Hollowell: We’re talking about the plan, sir. 
The Court: The proposed, I imagine; he got up 

to May ’64 in the question.
Mr. Jones: Thank you.
The Witness: Well, I ’m glad because I was an­

swering it on the pre-existing one.

By Mr. Hollowell:
Q. Well, I ’m sorry, we were talking about a person who 

graduated in May, ’64? A. Well, he hasn’t graduated yet. 
Who will graduate ?

Q. Well, this is the hypothetical? A. Yes.
Q. A person graduates in May ’64 in Cochran, Georgia, 

and he moves to Macon, Georgia during the summer—this 
was the hypothetical—I say, what high schools are avail­
able to him to attend ?

Q. (continuing) —and this is a person of color? A. He 
has already graduated at Cochran.

The Court: We assume so, yes.

By Mr. Hollowell:
Q. He is graduated or he is promoted from the 11th 

grade to the 12th grade? A. What is your question again? 
I don’t understand the graduating in ’64. If he graduated 
in ’64, he’s not eligible.

Q. John Jones is an 11th grade student in Cochran, 
Georgia and has passed to the 12th grade in May, ’64 and 
thereafter during the summer of ’64 moves to Macon, 
Georgia; he wants to go to school in Macon in September, 
’64; he will be in the 12th grade; he is a person of color, a 
Negro: What schools are available to him to attend? A. 
He may attend Ballard-Hudson or Appling, depending on



65

Julius L. Gholson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross

where liis residence is. Now, you see, he has not graduated. 
You said he has graduated in ’64.

Q. Well, I don’t think that the last statement referred to 
graduation at all, Mr. Gholson? A. He passed instead of 
graduated. That’s what you meant.

Q. Your answer is, as I understand it, that only Ballard- 
Hudson and Appling would be available to him for assign­
ment? A. Under the old rule.

Q. We’re talking about ’64, sir? A. Under the—
Q. We’re talking about now, Mr. Gholson. I don’t want 

to cut you off but I want to make it clear that the hypo­
thetical refers to a person going to school in September, ’64 
under this plan? A. All right. That person may apply to 
the Superintendent and, if he desires to go to Dudley 
Hughes Vocational or to any of the other schools, they may 
make application for i t ; and we would go through this pro­
cedure that has been implemented to carry out the plan ; 
and it’s possible that he could attend any of the high schools 
in the City that he so desired; it’s possible.

Q. And this would be dependent upon approval which 
you would make? A. That’s correct.

Q. All right, now, how many years do you construe it to 
require before even a person in the first grade would be 
able to effect a transfer out of a segregated system? A. I 
believe under this plan we mentioned, it would take nine 
years, I believe.

Mr. Hollowell (addressing Mr. Jones): Sir?
Mr. Jones: I ’m sorry, I was talking to myself. 

What I said was that a first grade student would 
meet the descending number of grades at some point. 
I assume that was your question.



66

Julius L. Gholson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross 

By Mr. Hollowell:
Q. Well, the point is, how many years would it take a 

person who is beginning in the first grade in 1964, Sep­
tember, to arrive at a point where he would be able to 
transfer out of a segregated system? A. Well, we’ll have 
to figure it for you, come down and see what they are. 
(Witness figuring) . . . He would meet it on the 4th year.

Q. Sir? A. He would meet it on the 4th year.
Q. On the 4th year? A. As he passed.
Q. How do you explain that, sir? A. Well—

The Court: That’s a matter of mathematics, isn’t 
it?

Mr. Hollowell: Sir?
The Court: Isn’t that a matter of mathematics?
Mr. Hollowell: Well, I think it’s a matter of mathe­

matics and then it gets to be a matter of interpreta­
tion also. I wanted to ask him another question re­
lated to that.

Q. Maybe without having to do the figuring, Mr. Gholson, 
let me ask you this: As you understand the plan, is there 
any time when an individual seeking to attend in any grade 
and wanting to go to a desegregated school could do so 
initially, other than by applying at the segregated school 
which he would be attending and requesting a transfer, 
unless he fell in the category of being a student coming 
into the system for the first time? . . .  Do you understand 
the question? A. Yes. It would take the 9 years that we 
mentioned. At the end of that time you would have segrega­
tion in all of the—I mean integration in all of the classes.

Q. Now, would you, sir? Suppose no one sought a trans­
fer for 9 years, for those 9 years? A. Well, you would have 
had the opportunity to.



67

Julius L. Gholson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross

Q. Well, we’re not talking about the opportunity. Sup­
pose no one sought to transfer, the system would be just 
as segregated 9 years from now as it is today, wouldn’t it? 
A. If no one sought a transfer, if no one—

Q. Unless, of course, there were persons who were com­
ing into the system for the first time and they happened 
to have been assigned; isn’t that true! A. That’s correct.

Q. So then, really the only thing that we have is a trans­
fer plan under your statement, isn’t that correct? A. That’s 
the way we accept admittance to the schools, by transfer.

Q. Now, there is some reference here to the fact that no 
effort would be made to do anything about the prayers re­
lating to the desegregation of the system as relates to 
teachers, principals and other personnel: Do you have in 
your mind any given time when it is anticipated that this 
would in fact take place? A. We would give—the plan 
says that consideration would be given to it after a period 
of transition has been effectuated.

Q. What is the contemplated period of transition, as you 
understand it? A. Your most important period of transi­
tion would be the beginning.

Q. Well, what constitutes the beginning, insofar as your 
statement is concerned? The first quarter, the first grade 
period, the first semester? A. I would say the first several 
years.

Q. The first several years? A. Certainly the first year 
and maybe the second and third, depending upon the ex­
tent.

Q. In other words, nothing less than three years? A. I 
would not say that. It depends on the circumstances.

Q. You make the assignments of teachers, do you not? 
A. Yes.

Q. You hire the personnel of the ministerial employment 
nature also, subject, of course, all of this, to the approval of



68

Julius L. Gholson-—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross

the Board! A. I recommend to the Board for the employ­
ment of teachers and principals.

Q. And principals? A. The Board elects them.
Q. How about all of the other personnel that works with 

the Board of Education? This too? A. Most of them, all 
of them come under our jurisdiction, but such as—some of 
the custodial staff, some of your lunchroom workers, the 
principals recommend those and are responsible for them.

Q. Now, you actually, not only hire the teachers and hire 
this personnel, you also assign them too, do you not? A. 
Yes, we assign them based on existing vacancies as a gen­
eral rule but we do assign them.

Q. What do you see as a problem insofar as the admin­
istration is concerned of making interracial assignments of 
teachers and principals in the schools? What administra­
tively do you see as being any different from making racial 
assignments? A. Well, your administrative problems 
would develop from the acceptance, relationship and ac­
tivity in the various positions and schools that they were 
assigned to. You would have—

Q. I mean, this is anticipatory, right? A. That’s right.
Q. But insofar as the administration is concerned, there’s 

no difference in the time that would be required to draft up 
a plan of placement, insofar as teachers, principals and 
other personnel are concerned, on a racial as distinguished 
from a non-racial basis; isn’t that true? A. Oh yes, that 
would upset the whole—we have schools where teachers 
have been there 30 and 40 years; their faculty is a per­
manent faculty there; and it would upset the entire admin­
istration set-up to start shifting teachers from one school 
to another school. Most of them are there because they can 
teach in that particular school.

Q. Well, what I ’m saying is, from the standpoint of the 
process of making the assignments and promulgating it,



Julius L. Gholson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross

there would be no difference, isn’t that true? A. There 
would be a difference because of the results, what would 
happen—

Q. We’re not talking about results now, we’re talking 
about action, Mr. Gholson; we’re talking about administra­
tive detail, the process of getting out the assignments, pub­
lishing them, mailing them, these kind of things: there 
would be no difference, would there? . . . Would there? 
A. No, you’d just have a difference of a name, that’s all.

Q. So that, the only thing that you are saying is that, 
if there was some change in the structure of the assignment 
of teachers from a non-racial to a racial basis, that there 
might be some administrative problems because of some 
dislike which might be manifested by some teacher or some 
principal and the like, is that correct? A. Well, there are 
many things that—

Mr. Jones: If Your Honor please, I think this 
might be a proper time, if counsel will excuse me for 
a moment, to say that the Board of Education does 
not recognize that the Plaintiffs in this case, who 
are school children suing through their parents or 
guardians as representative of a class, have any voice 
to require certainly non-preferential treatment of ad­
ministrative personnel of the system; and, in my 
opinion—and I think the Board will contend here— 
that applies also to teacher personnel, that there is no 
right, no civil right, no right to be enforced or to 
establish in the students, who are here suing as a 
class, to obtain any direction from the Court to the 
school system, the Superintendent or the Board, as 
to the assignment of teachers in the system or princi­
pals in the system as between the different schools.



70

Julius L. Gholson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross

Furthermore, that the teachers are not here repre­
sented as a class, speaking or suing in their own 
behalf; nor is the administrative or other personnel 
of the system.

Now, I did not want to debate that question now 
but I did think it would be a good time to state for 
the record the Board’s position in connection with 

'it.
The Court: Very well.
Mr. Hollowell: I would submit, Your Honor, that 

such a contention would come a little late, the par­
ties Defendant having already answered and, of 
course, it becomes a matter of law anyhow. So, I 
don’t think it will be necessary for us to take the time 
at this time to address ourselves to it, but I will 
address myself to it when we make our arguments.

The Court: Very well.
Mr. Hollowell: Mr. Joiner, do you remember the 

last question?
The Reporter: “So that, the only thing that you 

are saying is that, if there was some change in the 
structure of the assignment of teachers from a non- 
racial to a racial basis, that there might be some ad­
ministrative problems because of some dislike which 
might be manifested by some teacher or some princi­
pal and the like, is that correct?” Answer: “Well, 
there are many things—”

By Mr. Hollowell:
Q. What are some of those things? A. They are the 

factors that involve the ivhole transition that we re talking 
about, Mr. Hollowell.



71

Julius L. Gholson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross

Q. Well, what are they? A. No. 1 is a tremendous social 
change.

Q. All right, you have live teachers who go from one, 
from some Negro school into some school that’s white or 
vice versa, and you contemplate—what do you contemplate 
here that you are saying would give some reasonable ad­
ministrative problem? A. Well, it’s the change of our 
entire system, our entire customs and traditions; and they 
involve all kind of psychological consequences, and that’s 
been proven on many, many occasions. I don’t know—

Q. It has? I t ’s been proven in many, many cases that 
they also don’t occur, except where the administration 
fails to do what it ought to do also, isn’t that true? A. I 
don’t know that it is.

Q. Do you have any specific reference to anj  ̂place where 
you say that this has happened many, many times? A. 
Yes, several of your big cities, Washington, New York and 
so on.

Q. What happened in Washington? A. When this prac­
tice was put into effect, they had all kind of disciplinary 
problems and administrative problems.

Q. What practice? You haven’t had any practice such as 
you have in this plan? A. Where you had white teachers 
teaching the Negro students and Negro teachers teaching 
the white students.

Q. What happened? A. Discipline, lack of discipline and 
many other problems that attached themselves to it.

Q. Do you know whether or not disciplinary problems 
were prevalent prior to that? A. Not to the same extent, 
from what I understand.

Q. What other problem would you suggest would be at 
hand? A. The main one is psychological and, as I  men­
tioned to you, the transition, the shock of doing something



72

Julius L. Gholson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross

that’s different from what’s been the custom and part of 
the custom and tradition for many, many years.

Q. All right, so the shock from the transition will have a 
psychological effect upon teachers and students; this is 
what you’re saying, is that correct? A. Yes.

Q. Sir? Sir? A. That’s correct.
Q. And this is what you say is a justification for a 

delay in the establishment of a truly and complete plan of 
desegregation of the total school system, is that correct? 
A. I didn’t say that at all.

Q. Well, I ’ll put it this way— A. I answered your ques­
tion.

Q. All right, then I ’ll rephrase i t : This is what you say 
is justification for a delay in the integration or desegrega­
tion of the teachers and principals and other personnel in 
the public school system of Bibb County; is that an ac­
curate statement? A. I didn’t say that.

Q. Well, I mean is it? A. I say that was the problem 
that would, that I saw, which would accrue from that prac­
tice.

Q. I see. And how long would you suggest that this prob­
lem would continue? A. I have no idea.

Q. No idea? A. No.
Q. You really never known until you try, do you? A. 

You do not.
Q. Do you see any other problems that are inherent? A. 

I ’m not prepared to discuss them at this time.
Q. By that you mean that you don’t think of any at this 

time? A. I mean there may be some others but I ’m not 
prepared to discuss them at this time.

Q. Well, what I ’m saying is, when you say you’re not 
prepared to discuss them, you’re saying that you don’t or 
none other come to you at this time; is that substantially



73

Julius L. Gholson-—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Cross

what you’re saying? A. Xu I can think of some more if 
you want to go into it.

Q. Well, will you tell me what they are? A. If you 
want to go into it.

Q. That’s what I’m asking? A. Well, you could have all 
kinds of problems as far as your interrelationships is con­
cerned.

Q. What do you mean by “inter-relationship”? We live 
interrelatedly, do we not. Now, what do you have refer­
ence to? A. What is your question now? Give me your 
question.

Q. I asked you what other problems do you see as a justi­
fication for delaying the desegregation of the school staff 
in your system? A. Well, during the period of transition, 
to begin with, it’s a terrific impact on the whole community 
there, and it would create problems there of adjustment, 
psychological, discipline and others, that would just add a 
great deal.

Q. What are these others? A. That would add a great 
deal of chaos and disorder and confusion to a period of 
transition.

Q. What are these others ? A. Those are the main ones 
that I mentioned to you.

Q. I see. Well, what are these? A. Psychological, ad­
justment, social change, discipline; the same ones that have 
existed in the places that I mentioned to you.

Q. You have disciplinary problems in all of your schools 
now, do you not? A. Very few, very few.

Q. You have disciplinary problems— A. Nothing com­
pared with places where this has been done, particularly in 
the initial stages.

Q. What have you, what reports, what studies have you 
read and studied which form the basis of your conclusion ? 
A. Oh many.



74

Julius L. Gholson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Direct

Q. Could you name a few? A. Many of your periodicals. 
I ’ve talked to some of the Superintendents and read.—

Q. What Superintendents have you talked with? A. 
Read from the U. S. News and World Report. Several from 
up in cities that were in the area there.

Q. What cities? A. I don’t recall the cities at this time. 
That took place in a convention that I attended, a profes­
sional meeting.

Q. A special meeting? A. Professional meeting.
Q. Oh, professional meeting; you had the occasion to 

sort of kick these things around with them, is that correct? 
A. Where we were talking school problems.

Q. And you say you’ve read the U. S. News Report and 
■some periodicals relating to i t ; do you remember any specific 
ones and by whom they were written? A. Not at this time. 
Now, if you would like for me to give you a study of it, I 
can take time and work it up, but I am not prepared to at 
this time.

Q. I don’t believe there are any further questions, Mr. 
Gholson.

The Court: Do you wish to examine him now or 
later, Mr. Jones?

Mr. Jones: I ’ll ask him just one question right 
now, if Your Honor please.

Direct Examination by Mr. Jones-.
Q. Mr. Gholson, you have been asked a number of ques­

tions which seemed to me to call for an answer as to the 
Board policy or the school system’s policy on some of these 
matters: Do you make the policy of the Board or do you 
carry out the policy of the Board? A. I carry out the 
policy of the Board.



75

Julius L. Gholson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)—Recross

Q. Who has responsibility for making the Board’s poli­
cies? A. Members of the Bibb County Board of Education.

Mr. Jones: I have no further questions, Your 
Honor.

The Court: Very well.
Mr. Hollowell: You may come down, sir.
The Court: We’ll suspend now for 10 minutes.
Mr. Jones: You understand, Judge, that I expect 

to put Mr. G-holson back on the stand?
The Court: Oh yes.

Recess: 11:00 AM to 11:10 AM—April 13, 1964
The Court: All right, Mr. Hollowell.
Mr. Hollowell: Your Honor, there are just a couple 

of other questions that I think I ’d like to ask Mr. 
Gholson and, if he’ll take the stand again, it might 
save recalling him later.

The Court: All right.

Recross Examination by Mr. Hollowell:
Q. Mr. Gholson, do you know how many white high 

schools and how many Negro high schools there are? A. 
Yes.

Q. How many? A. We have 8 white schools, high 
schools, and 3 Negro high schools.

Q. How many junior high schools? A. That included 
the junior and senior divisions. Some of them are not 
separated by division.

Q. Do you know how many students there are in the white 
high schools and how many students there are in the Negro 
high schools, junior high schools and the like? A. I believe 
last year there were approximately 8,000 white high school 
students and about 4,000 Negro high school students.



76

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)
—Cross

Q. And how many white elementary schools are there? 
A. I believe we had 26 elementary, white elementary schools.

Q. And Negro? A. Negro, we had 14.
Q. Do you know approximately how many students there 

were in the respective schools? A. I believe in the ele­
mentary schools we had approximately 15,000 white and
9,000 Negro.

Q. How many schools do you have in which you have 
double sessions? A. We do not have any double sessions 
at the present time.

Q. That is true both on the high school and the elementary 
school level; is that correct? A. To my knowledge, yes.

Q. Very well; thank you.

Mr. Jones: That’s all.
Mr. Hollowell: I understand Dr. Weaver, who is 

the President of the Board, is not here but Mr. Atkin­
son who is the Vice-President is here; is that cor­
rect, Mr. Jones?

Mr. Jones: That’s correct. Dr. Weaver, of course, 
is in town but he’s not here in the courtroom. How­
ever, Judge Atkinson is here.

Mr. Hollowell: Mr. Atkinson, please take the stand.

J udge M allory C. A tk in so n  called by Plaintiffs as ad­
verse witness, being first duly sworn, testified on

Examination by Mr. Hollowell:
Q. Mr. Atkinson, how long have you been the Vice-Presi­

dent of the Board ? A. I can’t tell you exactly, 4 or 5 years 
possibly.

Q. How long have you been on the Board? A. I came on 
the Board first 20 years ago, in 1944, in an ex-officio capac-



77

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)
—Cross

ity; and I went off of the Board in that capacity at the 
end of 1954 and was elected to membership on the Board 
in May, 1955, and have been on it ever since.

Q. So, except for one year, you’ve been on the Board 
for about 20 years or about 19 years? A. No, except for 
about 3 or 4 months.

Q. 3 or 4 months? A. Yes.
Q. So, we can say in round figures about 20 years you’ve 

been on the Board? A. That’s correct.
Q. You’ve been familiar with the procedure and policy 

of the Board during that period of time? A. I would say 
so, yes.

Q. Have you ever served as the President of the Board? 
A. I have not.

Q. Mr. Atkinson, you are in what business? A. I am 
professor of law at Mercer University.

Q. How long have you been out there? A. Since 1955.
Q. As professor of law and as a member of the Board 

you have had the occasion no doubt to study most of the 
cases relating to public school desegregation, is that not 
correct? A. Yes, I have had occasion to review them.

Q. You’ve discussed them, I would presume, with both 
members of the Board as well as with counsel for the Board, 
is that correct? A. It depends on what’s meant by “dis­
cussion”. If you mean, have I entered into any argumenta­
tive discussion, I frankly can’t recall one. I ’m sure that in 
discussions those cases have been mentioned and reference 
has been made to them.

Q. Reference, I presume would have been made to them 
during the time that the plan was in the process of being 
drafted, wouldn’t you say? A. Well, I did participate in 
the work that was done toward drafting this program. I 
would not be prepared to testify as to just what extent we



78

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)
—Cross

discussed any particular provisions of any ease. I ’m quite 
sure we were all mindful of those cases.

Q. How many other lawyers are there on the Board? A. 
"Well, the Ordinary of the County and the two Superior 
Court Judges who are residents of this County, of course, 
are lawyers. Mr. Miller, the Secretary of the Board, is a 
lawyer, and at the moment I believe that’s all. I don’t know 
whether I ’ve overlooked anyone or not; I hope not.

Q. And then, you have a lawyer for the Board, is that 
correct? A. That’s correct.

Q. In the person of Mr. Jones? A. None of us make any 
effort to serve in a legal advisory capacity to the Board.

Q. How many members are there on the Board? A. 
Well, we grew when we had an extra judicial post set up 
here. I believe it’s 15 now.

Q. So, roughly, a fourth of the members of the Board 
are lawyers, are they not? A. There may be 16. There are 
4 ex-officio members now, and I believe the original Board 
was 12.

Q. So roughly, a fourth of the members of the Board 
are lawyers? A. Yes, I would say so or have had legal 
experience and background.

Q. Could you tell, me, Mr. Atkinson, whether or not there 
were any steps taken toward desegregating the public 
school system of Bibb County and Macon, the City of 
Macon, between 1954 and the time that the subject suit was 
filed? A. By “steps taken”, do I take it you mean, was any 
action taken in that direction?

Q. Or any plans or suggested plans drafted, whereby 
the system sought to comply with the 1954 decision? A. I 
would say no plans have been presented prior to the ones 
with which you are presently familiar.



79

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)
—Cross

Q. Would it be a fair statement to say that the Board, 
of course, bas been aware of the existence of the ’54 decision 
since its publication? A. I think that’s correct.

Q. So, nothing was done to comply until such time as the 
instant suit was filed? A. 1 say, that depends on what you 
mean by what was done. I say no steps were taken; if that’s 
what you mean by it, your assumption is correct. If you 
say “nothing was done”, that covers a little bit wider field. 
There was concern, there was discussion, there was study, 
but there was no action taken, if that’s what you mean.

Q. Well, I would say that’s a very good lawyer answer, 
sir. What I mean by “nothing” was done, Mr. Atkinson, 
is that at no time during that period were there any steps 
taken to bring about a desegregated public school system 
in Bibb County? A. That is correct.

Q. You have heard the testimony of Mr. Gholson, have 
you not, this morning? A. I have.

Q. Insofar as the answers which he gave interpreted the 
provisions thereof, do you recollect any differences of opin­
ion that you would have? A. Well, I will have to state 
that I don’t think I can give a firm response to that, be­
cause it seemed to me upon occasion Mr. Gholson became 
confused as to what was meant between the adult vocational 
program and the high school vocational program in the high 
schools, and between the system which has been in existence 
in the past and the one that is contemplated in the present. 
I think Mr. Gholson was asked to answer questions of policy, 
which he probably was not prepared to answer; and I can­
not say that I subscribe entirely to what he said. But if 
you ask me do I recall any specific thing that I would take 
a contrary view on, I do not.

Q. Well, maybe for clarification, since you have been 
on the Board for approximately 20 years, I might clear up



80

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)
—Cross

for the record, if there is any question about it, whether or 
not the adult vocational program is in any wise a part of 
the plan which has been submitted? A. My understand­
ing is that it is not. My understanding is that the adults, 
that we consider that the adult vocational training program 
does not need to be brought within the plan. It is already 
contemplated, it is already provided that it shall be operated 
without any discrimination on the question of race.

Q. Do you know whether or not there has been any pub­
lication of this policy? A. Yes sir, there has.

Q. I believe the other thing you said there was some ques­
tion about related to what? A. Oh, I think there was 
confusion at one time or another as to whether or not, 
when a question was directed to him, it was applicable to 
the past years under our past practices or under the opera­
tion under the contemplated plan. I ’m not sure he was en­
tirely clear on that from time to time. He may have been 
or may not.

Q. Well, maybe to further clarify it, I will propound this 
hypothetical: A child, this is under the plan, sir, who is 
in the 11th grade at Ballard-Hudson High School, in the 
year, school year ’63-64, and desires to go to Lanier in the 
year ’64-65 beginning in September, under the plan would 
have to make his application—or strike that—under the 
plan would have to initially be assigned to the high school 
that he attended for the year ’63-64, and then make an ap­
plication through the principal for a transfer from that 
school to Lanier for the school year ’64-65: Is this your 
understanding, sir? A. That is substantially my under­
standing. You inserted one requirement that I don’t quite 
follow. If he is already enrolled—at which school, did you 
say, Ballard-Hudson?



81

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)
—Cross

Q. It doesn’t matter, either one, Ballard-IIudson or Ap­
pling? A. If he were already enrolled there, I don’t know 
that he would have to he registered there for another year. 
If he were enrolled at Ballard-Hudson and sought to trans­
fer to Lanier, he would have to file an application for such 
transfer.

Q. But the students are reassigned each year, are they 
not? A. I don’t know that they are reassigned. They 
are advanced. Their promotion cards advance them to the 
next grade. I don’t think either a teacher or a principal 
or a superintendent goes down the list of 30,000 children 
and says “Now, you are assigned to such and such a school.” 
Perhaps the effect of it is the same.

Q. I see. Well now, on page 5 of the plan, the first 
full sentence on the page says: “Pupils will register for 
new terms at the school which they last attended”. So that, 
this is the procedure under the plan, is it not? A. That 
would be the procedure under the plan. Yet, I do not think 
it matters because the application will go wherever it’s 
presented originally, whether it’s to the principal of the 
school he last attended or to the Superintendent’s office, it 
will go the same route.

Q. Well, in the first instance he would apply, he would 
have to register at the school last attended? A. I  take it 
so from what you read there.

Q. And is there any question about it? A. No, there’s 
not any question in my mind. As a matter of—

Q. Excuse me, were you finished? A. I said no question 
on my part about it. I don’t think it matters. I t’s form only.

Q. Let me ask you, a student coming in for the first 
time into the school system, taking our hypothetical of the 
youngster who was enrolled in Cochran in the 11th grade



Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)
■—Cross

for the year ’63-64, and who was promoted to the 12th grade 
in May of ’64 and who moves to Macon during the summer 
of ’64; that person would be in a position to make an ap­
plication at any school, any high school, for the 12th grade, 
as you understand the plan? A. There again, perhaps I ’m 
indulging in liberties that the typed word won’t permit. I 
think he could apply to any school. He certainly could 
apply for attendance at any school. That application might 
very well be subject to being considered by the Superinten­
dent who is charged with the assignment of all pupils. But 
he could apply, for instance in Lanier, just as well as he 
could apply to Appling, if that answers your question ?

Q. And presuming that there was no reason other than 
race for him not to be assigned to say one of the presently 
called “white schools”, he would be able to attend such a 
school if he made such an application, is that correct? A. 
That is my understanding.

Q. This is what you believe is contemplated by the plan? 
A. Exactly. The racial factor would have no bearing what­
soever in that situation.

Q. In the 12th grade only? A. That’s right.
Q. But now, coming for any other grade, why, he would 

be assigned to one of the Negro schools? A. Until that 
grade is included in the plan.

Q. Do you know why the implementing procedures for 
the plan, that is the administrative procedures, were not 
submitted along with the plan? A. I  will simply state I 
know of no reason why they should have been.

Q. Should have been or shouldn’t have been? A. I say, 
I know of no reason why they should have been submitted. 
The plan has been submitted, it was submitted in rather 
general terms, on the theory that that was to the best 
advantage of all concerned.



Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)
-—Cross

Q. What advantage do you see in not making the plan 
complete from the standpoint of the general administra- 
tive policies, as relates to the plan? A. I think any time 
we start drawing a code of rules for the administration of 
any program, we find that the more rules we put into it, 
the more opportunity for dissension and trouble to be 
caused. I am inclined to think a plan with general rules, 
coupled with good faith, is of vastly more value than a 
many-paged code of regulations, which inescapably offer 
loopholes and possibilities for circumvention.

Q. Would you suggest that where there is no procedure 
set out, other than in a very, very general and loose way, 
that the prospects for—using your term here—“loopholes” 
would be even more greatly present? A. I think if it were 
left in that way as a final proposition, yes; but I don’t think 
it needs to be left that way, and it was never contemplated 
to be left that way.

Q. Well, inasmuch as the plan is a document to be con­
sidered by the Court, wouldn’t it seem reasonable to you 
that the procedure as to how the plan was to be operated 
would be important for the consideration of the Court? A. 
I certainly do think so and it will be made available.

Q. Will be made available? A. Yes, during this hearing. 
That’s what we’re here for.

Q. Excuse me, sir? A. That’s what we’re here for.
Q. Here? A. Yes.
Q. Then, you don’t consider the administrative operative 

aspects to be a part of the plan but something that is 
only ancillary, is that correct? A. Well, I don’t know how 
to answer that. It certainly is a part of it. In a sense it’s 
ancillary. It just depends on whether you want to make 
a general plan and then spell it out as you go along with



84

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)
—Cross

more specificity, or whether you want to try to start off 
with a plan, which you think is going to cover the here and 
the hereafter.

Q. Let me ask you this, Mr. Atkinson: Do I understand 
you to say that there is now presently published, though 
perhaps not distributed, a complete administrative plan, 
which is to accompany the plan which has been submitted 
and filed? A. No, I  do not mean that at all. So far as I 
know, there has been nothing published; but, here again, 
when we are given an opportunity to produce evidence and 
make a showing on the plan which we have offered, we con­
template expanding to show some of the details of that.

Q. I see. When do you contemplate bringing into exist­
ence those details? A. They’re already in existence. I t’s 
just a question of showing them to the Court and we’ll do 
that as soon as we have an opportunity to be heard in this 
hearing.

Q. Well, you have me rather badly confused, Mr. Atkin­
son ; in one breath—

The Court: I think he means that whenever you 
are through presenting your evidence, he wants to 
present this plan, or the other side does.

Mr. Hollowell: Well, if it please the Court, he has 
just said that they didn’t have anything that had 
been—■

The Court: No, no, he didn’t.
The Witness: I didn’t say that.
The Court: You asked him if it had been pub­

lished.
Mr. Hollowell: I believe so.
The Court: Publicized and he said no, but I take 

it, he’s got it.



Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Plaintiffs (Adverse)
—Cross

Mr. Hollowell: I said published though not dis­
tributed ; in other words, drafted, made up, a written 
document. This is what I had reference to and my 
understanding of that which he has said would be in 
the negative.

The Court: No, no; I think he’s got it and he 
wants to present it whenever you get through with 
him, whenever you present your ease.

Mr. Jones: Your Honor, here it is (producing 
document) . . .

The Court: That’s perfectly plain to me although 
I knew nothing about it except at this hearing.

Mr. Hollowell: Well, it wasn’t plain to counsel, 
Your Honor, I assure you.

The Court: Well, I was trying to make it clear to 
you. They say they’ve got it. That’s the reason they 
wanted the burden of proof but I gave it to you. Go 
ahead. But, in view of the fact, now you may cut 
some of yours a little short; and then you’ll have a 
right to come back, if you need to.

Mr. Hollowell: Yes, yes.

Q. This plan as you now have it, let me ask you this, 
and as you have studied it, since you indicate that it is in 
existence, how long do you anticipate that it will take to 
put it into action? A. By “this plan”, do you mean the 
plan that we have—

Q. The plan, the administrative plan ? A. Do you mean 
the plan that we have presented in court, or do you mean 
these sustaining elements of the plan?

Q. The sustaining elements of the plan? A. They will 
become operative whenever the plan is approved; if the 
Court approves the plan, we’re prepared to implement it.



86

Plaintiffs Rest

Mr. Hollowell: I don’t believe there are any fur­
ther questions of this witness, Your Honor.

The Court: All right.
Mr. Jones: I have no questions.
Mr. Hollowell: We have no further questions at 

this time and we rest, Your Honor.

P la in tiffs  E est

The Court: Very well, proceed for the Defendants.
Mr. Jones: Will Your Honor give me just one 

moment ?
The Court: Yes.
Mr. Hollowell: May it please the Court, may I 

say, if they have some kind of administrative plan 
which they expect to be considered here, I think it 
would certainly be most proper for counsel to have 
a copy of it, if it’s going to be considered in this 
situation; so that it would not be cold to counsel, 
if it’s supposed to be a part of the plan.

Mr. Jones: If Your Honor please, I am delighted 
to give counsel even at this time or at any subsequent 
time certain papers which we have prepared. The 
question is asked whether it’s a part of the plan or 
not.

This first document here is entitled, “Procedure 
for executing student transfer requests”, and there 
are other documents similarly entitled, including ap­
plication forms, information sheets, and various and 
sundry things of that sort.

I  do not want them to be considered as presented 
to the Court until we have had an opportunity to 
present them, but I ’m very happy to give counsel a 
copy of what I have in mind right now, be delighted.



87

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants—Direct 

The Court: Very well.
Mr. Jones: I ’ll ask Mr. Atkinson now to resume 

the stand as a witness for the Defendant.

J udge M allory C. A tk in son  now called as witness in 
behalf of Defendants, having previously been sworn, testi­
fied on

Direct Examination by Mr. Jones:
Q. Mr. Atkinson, certain questions which I might have 

asked at this stage have already been answered by you as 
to your present profession and relationship to the Board. 
I would like to review that very briefly: Y ou have the title 
of “Judge”, I believe! A. I became Judge of the Superior 
Court in March, 1944.

Q. That’s where your title came from! A. Tes sir.
Q. You became Judge of the Superior Courts of the 

Macon Circuit in 1944! A. That’s correct, sir.
Q. And continued in that office until the end of the year 

1954,1 believe? A. That’s correct.
Q. At that time, I think I might be permitted to suggest 

that you did not offer for reelection for another term? A. 
That’s correct.

Q. Then, during that period of time you were under the 
charter of the Board an ex-officio member of the Board? 
A. At that particular time.

Q. By virtue of your office? A. Yes sir.
Q. The Superior Court of this Circuit has two Judges 

resident in Bibb County, is that correct? A. That is cor­
rect. That was not true throughout my tenure but that is 
presently true.

Q. That was true at some time during your tenure? A. 
Yes, for a short period.



Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants-—Direct

Q. And it is now true? A. That’s right.
Q. There is a third Judge of that Court who does not 

reside in Bibb County? A. That’s correct.
Q. That’s Judge Aultman, I believe he resides in Peach 

County? A. That’s right.
Q. And is only the resident Judges of that Court in Bibb 

County who are ex-officio members of the Board? A. Yes 
sir.

Q. So, that means that at the present time there are two 
Superior Court Judges in this County who are ex-officio 
members of the Board? A. Judge Long and Judge Bell.

Q. Now, the Ordinary, I believe you said, was also an 
ex-officio and there is a fourth ex-officio member? A. The 
Mayor of the City of Macon.

Q. The Mayor of the City of Macon? A. Yes sir.
Q. When you gave up your office as Judge, you then 

ceased to be a member of the Board? A. That’s right.
Q. And that situation continued for several months, prob­

ably until May of 1955? A. I think that’s right.
Q. At which time you were a regularly elected member? 

A. That’s right.
Q. And you have since served in that capacity? A. Yes 

sir.
Q. Prior to becoming a member of the Board in 1944, you 

had practiced law for several years, I believe? A. Some 
14 to 15 years, yes sir.

Q. Starting at what time ? A. 1930.
Q. Counsel asked you in opening his case if you had, by 

reason of your professional experiences and membership 
on the Board, had occasion to keep up with the unfolding 
of the decisions since 1954: Do you by any chance mean to 
say that you have either read or heard of or studied all of 
the decisions of all of the Courts during that period of time?



89

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants—Direct

A. No sir, I would not profess to have any knowledge of 
the holdings even in all of the cases, but I have had occasion 
to do some work in that field for my own interest and be­
cause of my interest in the field.

Q. And, of course, since you retired from the Judgeship 
in 1944, your work has been at Mercer"? A. Substantially, 
yes sir.

Q. Where you are teaching? A. Yes sir.
Q. You were, of course, aware of the original Brown v. 

Board of Education decision in 1954? A. Yes sir.
Q. And of the implementing decisions which followed 

almost exactly a year later? A. Yes sir.
Q. In 1955? A. Yes sir.
Q. And by general reading you have to some extent kept 

up with other decisions as they have been handed down? 
A. I think that’s a fair statement of it, sir.

Q. Mr. Atkinson, when the Brown decision was handed 
down by the Supreme Court, did the Bibb County Board 
take any cognizance of it in the matter of establishing a 
committee or any such action as that, that you recall? A. 
A committee was established to concern itself with that 
particular situation. It is my recollection that that com­
mittee was not designated until 1955, after the second deci­
sion or the implementing decision, if we may call it that, 
in the Brown case came out.

Q. What was your position in connection with that com­
mittee assignment? A. I was chairman of that committee.

Q. Who was at that time the Chairman of the Board? 
A. J. D. Crump.

Q. Do you recall or can you now state who were the 
other members of that committee? Possibly I can help you. 
A. I believe I can. McKibben Lane, Wallace Miller, George 
Rankin and Mr. Crump was ex-officio and I think there



90

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants—Direct

were one or two others. I ’m sure we can find the list of 
those.

Q. I think that’s relatively unimportant? A. Possibly 
Mr. Hertwig, I am not certain when he came on the Board.

Q. Mr. Charles C. Hertwig? A. Yes, Mr. Hertwig.
Q. Then with the Bibb Manufacturing Company? A. 

Yes.
Q. Mr. McKibben Lane, to whom you referred, is de­

ceased, I believe, at this time? A. That’s right.
Q. How long did that committee continue to function as 

a committee? A. Prom the fall of 1955 until the early 
spring of 1961.

Q. I hand you a copy of a petition, which was received 
by the Board on December 9, 1954; that petition is signed 
by a number of parents, with their addresses shown; also 
by J. S. Williams, M. D., President of the Branch, and by 
Donald L. Hollowell and A. T. Walden as counsel: What 
does that reference to the “branch” mean? A. I think the 
petition itself recites that he was President of a branch of 
the National Association for the Advancement of Colored 
People.

Q. And the Mr. Hollowed who signed that petition is the 
gentleman who is here in court now? A. That’s correct.

Q. Bepresenting the Plaintiffs in this case? A. Yes sir.
Q. Do you know Mr. Walden or who he is? A. I rather 

think I have met him.. I  rather think he has been in my 
court in years past, but I am not certain of that.

Q. I will ask you to look at that paper: first, look at 
the form of it, if you will, to see to whom it is addressed 
and for the purpose of indicating whether it appears to be 
a personal communication prepared for presentation to the 
Bibb County or a form of petition of some sort prepared 
for general use? A. Wed, I would say it appears to be a



91

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson-—for Defendants—Direct

form which had insertions made to make it applicable to 
our Board. It did not use the corporate name of our Board. 
It starts off, “To the blank school board of parenthesis dis­
trict number or county”, rather than starting off—and then, 
they filled in the blank “Bibb County.” So, it’s obvious who 
was intended, and the Superintendent of the Schools of 
Bibb County.

Q. Do you happen to know whether similar petitions on 
the same form were presented to some other systems in the 
State? A. No sir, I couldn’t testify—

Mr. Hollowell: May it please the Court,—
The Witness: I couldn’t testify of my own knowl­

edge.
Mr. Hollowell: Just a minute, if you don’t mind. 

May it please the Court, I want to object to the line 
of questioning as having no materiality or relevance 
to the particular ease at hand. I can’t see that what 
has been done in some other county or city has any 
effect upon what this Board has done and what this 
Board is required to do, especially as relates to any 
application which may have been made.

The Court: He is just commenting upon the peti­
tion, I believe, that was presented. I don’t think he’s 
going into what other boards did.

Mr. Hollowed: Very well.
The Court: Let him go ahead.
The Witness: I will answer your question by stat­

ing that I have made no accurate comparison. I did 
have knowledge that petitions were presented to 
other boards but the verbiage of those petitions, 
I do not know.

Mr. Jones: Your Honor please, as we go along, 
mav I identify that petition at this time.



92

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants—Direct

The Witness: There’s two copies of the same thing.
The Court: The Clerk will do so.
Mr. Jones: This is a petition actually in two pages 

with different signatures on different pages but it’s 
the same petition. I t’s entitled “Petition to Bibb 
County School Board of, district number or county 
blank space, and Superintendent of Schools of Bibb 
County; and is signed by a number of individuals, 
who identify themselves as parents of children, and 
by the officers of the branch of the NAACP; and is 
marked Received 2:20 P. M., December 9, 1954”.

I would like for you to identify that as Defendants’ 
Exhibit D-l. (So identified) . . .

Q. In point of time, Judge Atkinson, how did that relate 
to the first and second Brown decisions of the Supreme 
Court! A. It was between the two.

Q. Was it then known that there would follow an imple­
menting decision by the Supreme Court! A. Yes sir.

Q. What was the reaction of the Board, upon receipt of 
that petition! A. It was considered that the request was 
simply premature, that no action could be taken until we 
had further directive.

Q. Then, at some later date did you, are you aware that 
a second petition was filed! A. Yes sir, that was, I  be­
lieve, in August of 1955.

Q. I show you this copy, which is also in two sheets but 
identical except that one has certain signatures and the 
other has additional signatures, and it is marked “Received 
2 :01 P. M., August 25, 1955”. Is that the petition to which 
you have reference! A. Yes sir.

Mr. Jones: I would like to identify that, if Your 
Honor please, as Defendant’s Exhibit D-2. (So iden-



93

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants—Direct

tilled.) I ’m quite certain that counsel has copies of 
these already but, if at any time he desires a copy 
of any of them, I will be glad to supply him.

Q. Upon receipt of that, what action, if any, did the 
Board take? A. The President of the Board appointed a 
committee, to which I referred a moment ago, and referred, 
as a matter of fact, both of those petitions to the committee.

Q. And that is the committee of which you were the 
Chairman? A. Yes sir.

Q. Has that committee met from time to time? A. Yes 
sir, not since 1961; that is, the committee of that personnel 
has not met since early in 1961.

Q. Well, I understand that that particular committee 
was really superseded by a subsequent committee ? A. Yes 
sir.

Q. In the year 1961? A. And it is to that to which I 
referred.

Q. And you are actually a member of the second commit­
tee also? A. Yes sir.

Q. You were chairman of the first committee? A. That’s 
right.

Q. In general, Judge Atkinson, what was the picture of 
progress or steps taken and reaction to those decisions 
during that immediate period, say in 1955 and 1956, with 
particular reference to the State of Georgia? Could you 
answer that question, if I ’ve given you an idea of what I 
have in mind? A. I think so, if I have in mind what you 
have in mind. I would say this: The decisions emanating 
from the Circuit Courts of Appeal and the United States 
Supreme Court were making it clear that this program 
would need be effectuated. In the State of Georgia we were 
confronted with problems arising, No. 1, out of the Constitu­
tion of the State of Georgia; and, No. 2, out of a variety



94

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants—Direct

of State statutes, all of these provisions requiring segrega­
tion in our public school systems by race, and tying that 
down or attempting so to do in various ways.

One statute, that I will not try to presently identify, was 
there to the effect that the integration of any school would 
instanter cut off the flow of funds from the State to the 
school system which was operating that integrated school.

Another statute, as I recall it, defined it as a felony 
under State law for any member of any board to apply any 
funds,—I anticipate it is worded that way; I don’t recall 
the details now—for any integrated school in the system.

And also, in addition to the general statutes and the con­
stitutional provision, there was the matter of the provision 
in our own charter, which was granted in 1872, which spe­
cifically required at that time and up until a year or two ago, 
separation on the basis of race.

Q. Do you happen to recall that in the implementing 
Brown decision in 1955 the specific statement was made 
that the District Courts charged with the enforcement of 
desegregation, as cases might properly come before them, 
could consider the necessity for the revision of local laws 
and regulations ? A. I do recall that and my recollection is 
that that was incorporated in the language in our prelimi­
nary report that our committee made to the Board. We 
received about that time a letter, and I do not recall who 
the writer was, but the effect of it was to undertake to place 
on the local board an ultimatum that certain action be taken 
by October 15, I believe; and our committee saw immedi­
ately that it was not the sort of problem that could be an­
swered that way; and we made a report and submitted that 
to the Board, calling attention to that.

Q. Can you identify this as a copy of the preliminary 
report of your committee, filed on October 3, 1955? A. Mr.



95

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants—Direct

Jones, I believe that’s an accurate copy. I do know that in 
the drafting of it some minor changes were made and this 
could be—•

Q. I notice that copy appears to be signed by members of 
the committee? A. .Yes, I think this is an accurate copy.

Mr. Jones: May I make inquiry of Mr. Gholson—
The Witness: I notice also—
Mr. Jones: (Addressing Mr. Gholson): Do you 

know whether that report is a correct copy of the 
report of this committee?

Mr. Gholson: I believe so.
Mr. Jones: If Your Honor please, may I proceed 

with this copy now, subject to a check up during the 
recess hour; and, if there is any question about it at 
all, I will advise the Court immediately after lunch?

The Court: All right, sir.
The Witness: I  believe that’s an accurate copy.

By Mr. Jones:
Q. You understand it is; it appears to be? A. Yes sir.

Mr. Jones: I would like, if Your Honor please, 
to identify that as Defendant’s Exhibit # 3.

Q. Actually, so far from local laws, and by local laws I 
particularly mean laws of the State of Georgia, to which 
this Board is subject, so far from State laws being revised 
to facilitate the desegregation of the schools or any form 
of compliance with the Supreme Court decision, isn’t it a 
fact that over the period from 1955 to say 1959, possibly 
1960, additional laws were passed, the apparent conse­
quence of which would be to increase those problems? A.



96

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants-—Direct

I think so, sir; and what I said a moment ago, it may he 
that some of those acts, to which I referred, were passed 
during that period.

Q. During that period of time? A. Because from 1954 
up until, I would say, the session of the General Assembly 
in 1961, there had been a tendency throughout that period 
to make it more difficult, rather than to facilitate it.

Q. Now, coming to 1961, do you happen to recall that 
in that year certain of these problem laws, with which we 
are concerned, were repealed? A. That is correct, in the 
spring of 1961.

Q. I don’t think it’s necessary— A. Not all of them, 
but—

Q. That’s right? A. But some of them.
Q. Generally speaking, was it the design of the Legis­

lature in 1961 to remove the statutory obstacles in the way 
of compliance with the Supreme Court decision? A. State­
wide, yes sir.

Q. Statewide, that’s right? A. Yes sir.
Q. Now, piior to that time, had any movement been 

initiated to change the charter of the Bibb County Schools? 
A. No sir, not to my knowledge.

Q. After the Legislature repealed certain of these laws 
in 1961, what happened insofar as your committee was 
concerned? A. Well, my committee was, shall I say, suc­
ceeded in the spring of 1961 by a similar committee, the 
chairman—we had a new chairman of our Board at that 
time, Dr. Weaver had become chairman, and upon the occa­
sion of some matter being submitted to the Board, it was 
referred to a committee, of which I was a member, which 
was chairmaned by Mr. Wallace Miller, Jr.

Q. May I now exhibit to you merely to aid your recollec­
tion a communication there dated in February of 1961: Will



97

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants—Direct

you state what that is? A. This appears to he a copy of 
a letter from the Macon Council on Human Relations, ad­
dressed to Dr. Weaver in his position as President of the 
Bibb County Board, referring to the problems with which 
we were concerned, and offering their assistance.

Q. Now, was it upon receipt of that communication that 
this new or superseding committee was appointed? A. 
That’s my recollection.

Q. The committee, to which you have reference, was 
the committee of which Mr. Wallace Miller acted as chair­
man? A. Yes sir.

Q. And you did continue as a member of that committee? 
A. Yes sir.

Q. Do you happen to know whether there was any other 
committee of the Board which was woven into that spe­
cial committee? A. Whether it started off originally or 
whether it was clone later I am not certain, but I do recall 
definitely that in our meetings of that committee we met with 
the Committee on Rules and Regulations of the Board also.

Q. And is that— A. And the two committees acted 
somewhat jointly.

Q. And is that the committee of which Mr. W. A. Pickling 
was chairman? A. That’s right, sir.

Q. And isn’t it a fact that that committee has at times 
been referred to as a joint committee or as a joint meeting 
of two committees? A. Yes sir.

Q. Mr. Wallace Miller’s special committee, plus the Rules 
and Regulations Committee? A. Yes sir.

Q. Turning back to yourself for a minute, reference has 
been made to your tenure as a member of the Board. Dur­
ing the period that you were on the Board state in what 
capacities you have served insofar as committee chairman-



98

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants—Direct

ships is concerned? A. I served as chairman of the com­
mittee on transportation. I cannot give yon the years, Mr. 
Jones.

Q. I don’t think the years are important. A. For several 
years. I served as chairman of the committee on Buies 
and Regulations for several years. I served at one time as 
secretary of the Board. I served as chairman and am 
presently serving as Chairman of the Committee on 
Teachers and Salaries, being charged with the responsi­
bility for the personnel of the Board.

Q. So that, at the present time you are a member of 
the Board, you are Vice-President of the Board, and you are 
Chairman of the Teachers’ Committee? A. That’s cor­
rect.

Q. Of the Board? A. Yes sir.
Q. On the subject of teachers you heard the interroga­

tion of Mr. Gholson, with reference to problems that would 
be encountered in attempting to assign teachers without 
difference based on race or color at all: Do you have any 
observation to make as to what that problem would involve? 
A. I do not know that I could make it with any clarity but 
I would like to make an observation. I think the difficulty 
with which we are confronted there, you may term it ad­
ministrative, you may term it by any other designation you 
care to, lies in the fact that the educational process is not 
a mechanical process, but is involved and invariably in­
volves personalities.

I do not think that any teacher ought to be assigned 
by the Board of Education or by the Superintendent to 
teach one grade in one school, without giving consideration 
to factors which are simply not consistent with the idea of 
assignment by rote or by rule.



Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants■—Direct

I do not think, and I have instructed the Superintendent 
of my views, I do not think that a teaching assignment 
should he made without consideration of the personnel and 
the characteristics of the personnel involved.

I do not think that a specific principal ought to be told 
that “I am sending to you a teacher, being application No. 
4376.” It is my experience, from the years I have been 
there on the Teachers and Salaries Committee, that the most 
satisfactory environment is created for educational pur­
poses where a principal makes a request for a certain 
teacher, of whom that principal knows, and the principal, 
of course, being close to the situation, he knows, who will 
fit in in that educational effort.

And so, I think probably there’s a little lack of under­
standing in thinking of this thing as just a mechanical sort 
of a process. It is anything but mechanical; it’s very per­
sonal.

Q. I don’t want to anticipate the testimony of the Super­
intendent when we put him on the stand a little bit later, 
but do you happen to know how the Superintendent now 
works out teacher assignments, in a general way? A. I 
can testify to this extent: I know that he receives applica­
tions and I know that he confers with each of the principals. 
Now, as to whether a given application originated with the 
principal or originated with the Superintendent, my thought 
is they might be both.

Q. That’s a detail that we can leave for the Superinten­
dent? I ’m quite sure. A. Yes sir.

Q. But in any event, it does involve a consideration of a 
great many personality factors in the assignment of teach­
ers? A. Inescapably, according to my way of thinking, 
yes sir.



100

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants—Direct

Q. You heard the Superintendent’s testimony that some 
of these teachers had been in a given school for many, many 
years—I think he mentioned 30 possibly longer in some 
cases—also that that school had an organization of teachers, 
which has remained fairly constant; is that your observa­
tion and understanding! A. Yes sir, I would say so. Actu­
ally, we have gone about creating that situation to some 
extent here in this County. We adopted a good many years 
ago, before I came on the Board, a system of increasing 
compensation on a local level to teachers, on the basis of 
years of service, whereby they get a certain increment the 
longer they stay, as a consequence of which we think it en­
ables us to keep our teachers longer than they might be 
kept in other systems in the State.

Q. Do you know of any teacher in the system, either 
white or colored, who has indicated a desire to teach in a 
school of the opposite race? A. No sir, I have never heard 
of one.

Q. Has there been any petition to the Board or repre­
sentation to the Board by the teachers individually or as a 
group, or in any other manner, indicating such a desire on 
their part? A. No sir, there certainly has not been to the 
Board, nor have any of them had anything to say to me 
about it, though I have been present at meetings of the 
Bibb Education Association and the Colored Teachers As­
sociation.

Q. Mr. Atkinson, how are teachers’ salaries determined? 
A. In two ways: No. 1 is the accreditation or certification 
would be the more accurate expression, which requirements 
are spelled out by the State Department of Education, and 
salary schedules are based upon the attainment in that 
area of certification.



101

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants—Direct

And No. 2, on the basis of tenure. The State has a sys­
tem of increasing compensation for tenure and, as I sug­
gested a moment ago, we have a system on top of that, 
whereby our system encourages longevity of service.

Q. I think you have partly answered my question. Let 
me insert another one right there: Is there any State law 
or Federal law for that matter, which gives to the teachers 
in the Bibb County public school system a guaranteed 
tenure of any sort? A. Not to my knowledge, no sir. We 
elect our teachers in May, I believe it’s May, in May of 
each year; and I think they secure, each teacher secures a 
one year contract. But I know of no right of a teacher to 
be reelected.

Q. That is, no right under the State law? A. That’s 
right.

Q. To be reelected? A. Not that I know of.
Q. To be reelected as a teacher in the Bibb County sys­

tem? A. Not that I know of.
Q. That was primarily what I had in mind? A. Yes sir.
Q. Then, if that’s true, it would follow that there is no 

right in that teacher to be assigned to a given or a specific 
or a particular school, so far as the State law is concerned? 
A. Certainly not with the expiration of the contract year 
and the starting of a new contract year.

Q. In connection with—I asked you how the teachers 
were paid and I think you have answered that question, 
though I am not entirely certain—is it correct to say that 
it is actually based on the teacher’s accreditation under 
some minimum compensation basis? A. That’s right, sir. 
They have varying degrees. They have what they call 
4-year professional certificate, 5-year and 6-year; and, 
of course, each one is on a different level of compensation, 
and it starts off there with your minimum, and then for 
years of service there are increments.



102

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants-—Direct

Q. That’s right, but that is a rate of pay which is deter­
mined on the teacher’s record? A. That’s correct.

Q. Length of service and other factors, which apply to 
all teachers? A. That’s right.

Q. In the system? A. Yes sir.
Q. Is there any difference in application of the teachers’ 

rate of pay as between the teachers in the Negro schools 
and the teachers in the white schools? A. None whatso­
ever.

Q. As a matter of actual application, could you state 
whether or not, as an average or as a group, the rate for the 
Negro teachers is higher or lower than that of the white 
teachers? A. Mr. Jones, I could not state an average and I 
couldn’t state general. I could state that it has come to my 
attention more than once that, computing on the basis of 
an average teacher, the average colored teacher would be 
drawing more than the average white teacher.

Q. That has been your observation? A. Yes sir, simply 
because of the accreditation and length of tenure of the 
teachers; and they had superior accreditation and they 
had more longevity sufficiently to where it pulled their 
average higher than the average of the white teachers.

Mr. Jones: Just one minute, Your Honor . . .  No 
further questions, Your Honor. . . . Please excuse 
me just a moment.

Mr. Hollowell: Surely.

By Mr. Jones:

Q. Mr. Atkinson, you understand that I am not asking 
you questions regarding matters which happened during 
Mr. Miller’s, reign as chairman of this committee or other 
matters, which will be covered by the Superintendent? A. 
All right, sir.

Mr. Jones: With that, I have no further questions.



103

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants■—Gross

Cross Examination by Mr. Hollowell:
Q. I have a few questions. Mr. Atkinson, do you know 

whether or not the law school students were submitted 
any of these problems for research? This is the law school 
students at Mercer, any of these problems growing out of 
desegregation of schools? A. They were not by me and, 
if they were by anybody, it was without my knowledge. I 
have no knowledge of any such.

Q. The letter that you made reference to or the peti­
tions which were first submitted in ’55,1 don’t recollect your 
having indicated that there was any response to them; was 
there any response to that first petition? A. There was a 
report which was made to the Board in October of that year, 
according to my recollection, which was publicized. That’s 
in the record. I t’s what was identified a few minutes ago, 
preliminary report made by that committee.

Q. Let me see if I understand you then: After the re­
ceipt of the petition, the committee met and report was 
made to the Board? A. That’s right.

Q. Which report was subsequently publicized? A. Yes.
Q. You mean through the local press? A. That’s cor­

rect.
Q. There was never any direct response made to the 

submitting parties? A. I can’t answer that, I do not know. 
It may be that the communication was addressed to a par­
ticular individual. I do not recall that I did so. It may 
have been done administratively, I don’t know.

Q. Now, these State statutes that you have made mention 
of, this package deal, which were passed by the Legislature 
and which sought to cut off funds and also had some penal 
sanctions as to certain of the provisions, did the Board at 
any time ever file any suit seeking a declaratory judgment 
as relates to any of these matters? A. No.



104

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants-—Cross

Q. The only suit that was ever filed was suit relating to 
the 1872 charter, which was filed last year? A. That was 
filed after the State had repealed the statutes, to which you 
refer.

Q. Yes, I know? A. That’s correct.
Q. But there was no other that was ever filed, to your 

knowledge? A. That’s right.
Q. Of course, in considering the matter of the order 

which ultimately came down in that State court suit, it 
was the general consensus, was it not, that there still 
should be no segregation or no desegregation of the public 
schools; is that not correct? A. I don’t know that I ’m 
prepared to state what the general consensus was. I think 
when Mr. Miller testifies here as to the activity on the part 
of his committee, you will be advised as to what we have 
on the question of consensus of opinion; but I don’t know 
that I could testify what the consensus of opinion was.

Q. Well, you were there? A. Oh yes, I was there.
Q. You know that there was a report made and some 

action taken by the Board pursuant to the hearing on the 
1872 plan or 1872 charter; is that not correct? A. I ’m 
sorry, I can’t follow what your question is.

Q. I said, you were present after the Court ruled on 
the 1872 charter last July, you were present at the meeting? 
A. What meeting?

Q. Meeting of the Board? A. Yes, I ’ve been present at, 
I think, most of the meetings of the Board.

Q. And you know that the matter was taken up by the 
Board, do you not? A. So far as I recall, it was not taken 
up by the Board, except in the way of study and report by 
Mr. Miller’s committee, and that’s to what I referred a 
moment ago. I think he’ll be able to testify to that, prob-



105

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants■—•Cross

ably more accurately than I. I was a member of that com­
mittee, I participated in it but 1 don’t know that I recall 
the specifics of it.

Q. Well, I ’ll ask you whether or not, after the court ruled 
that the Board could in fact desegregate, or maybe put it 
the other way, that the 1872 provision which had been 
the subject matter of the litigation, did not keep the Board 
from desegregating, the Board did in fact vote to continue 
segregation; is that not true! A. I think that will be most 
accurately portrayed by showing wdiat action the Board 
took. I do not have that before me now, but there is a resolu­
tion which was adopted.

Q. I ’m not asking you whether or not you have it before 
you, Mr. Atkinson, but I ’m asking you whether or not as a 
member of the Board who was present, do you know 
whether the Board did make such a vote! A. Indeed, I do; 
I know that such a resolution was adopted. I would not 
characterize that resolution because I think the resolution 
would best speak for itself.

Q. Do you know what the import of it was! A. I think 
Ido.

Q. What was that! A. The import of it was, and I don’t 
know that I ought to try to give my reactions to things 
when we’ve got the original actually available and it speaks 
for itself; but if there’s no objection, I will go ahead and 
testify, that I think the import of it was substantially this: 
that in the thinking of the Board, that any process of 
elimination of the practice of segregation, such as we have 
known since 1872, could be most satisfactorily conducted 
under the guidance and direction of the United States Dis­
trict Court.

Q. And, therefore, the Board took no steps to desegre­
gate! A. That’s correct.



106

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants—Cross

Q. Now, you said that you had been the Chairman of the 
Teachers Committee for what period of time? A. I don’t 
think I said exactly because I don’t recall exactly, but I 
think 4 or 5 years.

Q. Do you think that the higher one goes in his training 
and the longer that he participates in his chosen profession, 
the more proficient he ought to be? A. Yes, the more pro­
ficient he ought to be. I do not subscribe to the idea that 
it follows as night the day that he is more proficient. Some­
times he is and sometimes he isn’t.

Q. Well, I submit that perhaps that is very true. Have 
you, as a matter of fact, found in the public school system 
of Bibb County that those with greater academic achieve­
ments and greater seniority and longevity were less effec­
tive as a teacher than those with less training and tenure? 
A. No.

Q. Then, based upon that, you would conclude that on 
an average that the Negro teachers in the Bibb County 
system would be quite qualified to teach white pupils as 
well as Negro pupils, is that correct? A. I don’t think I ’m 
qualified to testify to my conclusion on that, because my 
conclusion on that would be speculation, because it is not 
simply a question of an individual’s training; it is not 
simply a question of an individual’s intelligence; it is not 
simply a question of an individual’s capacity; but there is 
also the factor of working together with other individuals, 
both on the faculty and on the teacher-pupil level.

I would simply answer it to this extent. Some of the most 
excellent teachers that I  have known in our system were 
colored. Some of the most effective and excellent teachers 
I have known are white. But that is not to say that that 
teacher would retain the same degree of effectiveness if



107

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson-—for Defendants-—Cross

moved over into the other area. That is speculation; I don’t 
know.

Q. And it is not also to say that it would be any less effec­
tive in a given situation either, is it, Mr. Atkinson? A. I 
am not making a positive statement one way or the other, 
but I say that those factors need to be considered. I t’s not 
a mechanical process, that of education.

Q. May I ask you this, Mr. Atkinson? To your knowl­
edge, has there been any consideration of a plan of desegre­
gation of the school teachers and principals and other staff 
personnel of the Bibb County public school system? A. I 
know of none.

Q. Are there any bonuses or grants paid to teachers in 
this area, over and above the regular salary? A. Well, I 
know of one. Now, by “bonuses”, I  don’t think you would 
mean there compensation for extracurricular work. For 
instance, some of our teachers do other work and they 
receive compensation for it.

Q. Actually, a better word would have been “supple­
ment”, sir? A. Well, yes, there are some supplements; a 
mathematics teacher who coaches football will be compen­
sated as mathematics teacher and something else for his 
extra duties. But there is only one that would fall in the 
category that you mentioned, and that is the McKibben 
Lane Award, which is made each year, to an individual 
teacher; the award being made on the basis of proficiency 
and manifestation of excellence in teaching.

Q. And how is that made now? A. Well, again, I ’m 
quoting from memory. We have it written down. But I 
would say it’s on the basis of manifestation of proficiency 
and excellence in teaching. I t’s there for the purpose of 
serving an incentive to teachers to do a better job.



108

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants—Cross

Q. Who has the discretion as to when this is paid! A. 
Oh, it’s set np whereby a committee, comprised of the 
Superintendent, one member of the Board, and some—the 
preceding recipients—I can’t tell you exactly what it is— 
but it involves parent-teacher associations and the educa­
tional associations; that is, representatives from them. I t’s 
about a 5 or 6 person committee.

Q. Now, is this paid in a lump sum or over a period of 
time! A. This is not Board of Education funds. It’s pri­
vately financed and privately conducted, except that these 
people do come in to do the leg work on it.

Q. What people? A. The members or the member of the 
Board, the Superintendent, some representative from the 
PTA or whatever. I can’t give you the details of it. I 
know there’s a group that decides that each year.

Q. Well, you are then familiar with it? A. Yes, I am. 
I ’ve served in that capacity.

Q. Then, could you answer the question, as to whether 
or not it is paid in a lump sum or is it spread out? A. Paid 
in a lump sum, cash award.

Q. Generally toward the end of a given year ? A. That’s 
right.

Q. There’s never any given number of teachers to which 
it is paid? A. Yes, there are two each year.

Q. There are no other problems inherent in the matter 
of the desegregation processes of the teachers, as well as 
the students, and other personnel of the public school sys­
tem of Bibb County that you can think of generally, other 
than those you’ve already stated; isn’t that correct? A. I 
don’t know whether I made a complete and full statement or 
not. I can think of a great many problems, and I do not 
know just exactly what I may have enumerated or what I



109

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants—Redirect

may have overlooked enumerating in the recitation I ’ve 
made, but I think that substantially covers it.

Mr. Hollowell: All right, no further questions for 
Mr. Atkinson.

Redirect Examination by Mr. Jones:
Q. Mr. Atkinson, I think we should clear up the last 

item of testimony, with reference to the award by Mr. Lane. 
We have already referred to the fact that Mr. Lane was 
deceased. I  believe that award was set up by his family 
after his death, was it not? A. That’s correct.

Q. In his memory? A. That’s right.
Q. And you say there are two awards, are they sepa­

rately awarded on the basis of Negro and white teachers? 
A. That’s correct, one for the whites and one for the colored 
in equal amount.

Q. So that the amount is equal and the award to the 
white is, of course, made among the white teachers and the 
award to the colored teacher among the colored teachers? 
A. That’s right.

Q. Do you happen to know that those awards have just 
been made or are just being made at the present time, or 
are you familiar with that? A. It is scheduled for the 
next 30 days, I would say.

Q. May 4 ,1 believe it is ? A. I didn’t remember the date. 
Q. And that is an annual award since Mr. Lane’s death? 

A. Yes sir.
Q. Mr. Atkinson, there is still some confusion about the 

vocational schools and its part in this plan. I asked you this 
morning if you had reviewed the plan and you said not 
since it was drawn. Maybe you’ve done it since then, but 
would it help if I gave you the plan now and asked you to



110

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants—Redirect

refer specifically to the references to the vocational pro­
gram, by which I mean the adnlt vocational program, and 
not the vocational courses which are offered at the high 
schools? You might start reading to yourself, not out loud, 
at the top of page 4, and then I ’ll ask you a few questions 
I want to ask you about that program? A. (Witness read­
ing document) . . .

Q. Are you ready? A. I ’m ready but you may find me 
confused instead of clear.

Q. All right, I think that’s very likely. In any event, it 
starts off with the statement that, “The vocational school 
program”, by which we are still referring to the adult 
program, is administered by the local board as an agency 
of the State Board, and that the local board does not have 
either the full responsibility or the duty with respect to 
it that it has with reference to the system under its control.

A. That’s correct.
Q. Is that a correct statement? A. That is certainly 

my understanding of the situation, yes sir.
Q. Who, what individual in Bibb County has the most 

to do with the administration of this vocational program, 
do you know his name? A. Raymond Kelley is the Director 
of the Program.

Q. I have here before me a sheet of paper, which has 
been prepared by Mr. Kelley, which gives a great deal of 
detailed information with reference to the program. I 
don’t know whether you’ve seen that or not. But would 
he be the proper person to enlighten us regarding the de­
tails of the administration of that program? A. Yes sir, 
he certainly would, because all I could do would be to quote 
what he states about it.

Q. I ’ll take that back now, if you don’t mind. A. Be­
cause he is more familiar with it certainly than any of the 
rest of us, I think.



Ill
Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants—Redirect

Q. All right, getting back now to the admission to a 
course in the adult vocational program, do you interpret 
or understand this plan as providing that any element of 
transfer is necessary, or that it’s merely a question of 
applying to a course? A. Applying to a court?

Q. Applying to enter a given course? A. Oh, well, my 
definite impression was it was the latter in the adult pro­
gram, because we have specifically had that question come 
up before the Board and recognized the necessity of pro­
viding those courses on a basis of no distinction according 
to race.

Q. Actually, is it correct that vocational courses for 
adults are set up and inaugurated as a sufficient number 
of people show an interest in taking that course? Is that a 
generally true statement ? A. It is my understanding; as a 
matter of fact, I think they canvass the community situa­
tion with particular reference to the employment agency 
and employers and try to establish the need for certain 
type training and the number of persons; and then, of 
course, we’re governed by the number of applicants.

Q. That’s right, and generally speaking, those courses 
are given at two different locations in the County, is that 
not correct? A. That’s right.

Q. Name those locations for me? A. At the Dudley 
Hughes Vocational School and the vocational department, 
if that’s what you would call it, at Ballard-Hudson.

Q. Dudley Hughes Vocational School and Dudley Hughes 
High School are actually separate organizations? A. Yes 
sir.

Q. However, they are located generally on the same cam­
pus? A. That’s right.

Q. Is that correct? A. Yes sir.
Q. But the Ballard-Hudson High School may consider 

that the vocational program there is more a department of



112
Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants—Redirect

Ballard-Hudson, is that the distinction you’re making? A. 
I didn’t really mean to make a distinction. I don’t know 
whether any such distinction occurs.

Q. Neither do I? A. I know we refer to the adult voca­
tional program at Ballard-Hudson and at Dudley Hughes.

Q. So far as you know— A. But I know we have at 
Dudley Hughes, shall I say, a regular accredited high 
school, and at Ballard-Hudson we have a regularly ac­
credited high school, in addition to this activity.

Q. In addition to the vocational program at each loca­
tion? A. Yes sir.

Q. Now, so far as you know, they are operated substan­
tially the same, without distinction between the two? A. 
There is a little difference in the personnel. That’s illus­
trated by what we said a minute ago. Mr. Kelley heads up 
the overall vocational education program. However, on 
the high school level, we have Dr. Whitley, who is principal 
of the high school, and Mr. Martin, who is principal of the 
high school at Ballard-Hudson.

Q. Do they have anything directly to do with the adult 
vocational program? A. I would say substantially not. 
I would think they would collaborate with Mr. Kelley on 
any vocational activities within the high school.

Q. Okay; then, you were asked the question, whether 
the vocational, the adult vocational school was included in 
this plan, and I understood you to say it was not. Would 
you mind reading the second sentence of that there, to see 
if that refreshes your recollection? A. (Witness reading 
document) . . . Well, it is just exactly the opposite of what 
I said. Perhaps,—•

Q. Will you read that? A. You want me to read it out 
loud?



113

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants—Redirect

Q. Yes? A. “Nevertheless, the Board feels that the 
vocational schools in Bibb County should be included and 
dealt with in this plan.”

Probably, the explanation of that wide divergence of 
testimony with the plan there lies in the fact that what my 
own thinking was, that the adult program had already been 
effectuated, and I  was thinking of the plan as a program 
to cover the next 8 or 9 years.

Q. That’s right! A. And for that reason we were not 
concerned with the adult educational program. But if you 
mean that the plan should spell out what has been and is 
being done there, of course, that would be entirely correct.

Q. It is at least dealt with in the plan! A. Yes sir.
Q. I think, Mr. Atkinson, if you don’t mind, if you’ll just 

read the balance of that paragraph now and that will be 
complete! A. “In keeping with the traditional separate 
school pattern classes and programs for vocational train­
ing have generally been separately provided for white and 
Negro trainees, but this distinction has not been rigidly 
followed and is not absolute at the present time. It is a 
part of the proposed plan that no applicant will be denied 
admission in the future to any vocational program under 
the control of the Board, or transfer from one program 
to another, solely because of his or her race.”

Q. Thank you, Mr. Atkinson; I think that’s all. You 
may come down.

By the Court-.
Q. Where is Dudley Hughes Vocational School! A. 

I t’s on the corner of Orange Street and Forsyth Street.
Q. That’s the old school— A. You recall that the old 

Gresham School, which was on the corner of Spring and 
Forsyth and Pine, along in there, has been destroyed now



114

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants—Redirect

and we are, I hope, on the road toward the construction 
of new facilities there.

Q. All right, and is the adult vocational program a part 
and is it conducted at that same site? A. Yes sir.

Q. 1 understand they have—it’s not entirely adult, is 
it? A. That’s right. The high school department operates 
just as any other high school in our system.

Q. All right; now, where is Ballard-Hudson? It was 
moved a while hack, wasn’t it? A. Well, it’s on the Ballard- 
Hudson campus. I don’t think I would trust myself to put 
my finger on it, Judge. That’s all I know, that it’s there 
where the Ballard-Hudson High School is.

Q. Well, where is the Ballard-Hudson High School? A. 
I could take you to it.

Mr. Jones: Anthony Road.
The Witness: Anthony Road.
The Court: It used to he in a different part of 

town entirely hut they’ve moved out, haven’t they?

A. I expect you’re thinking of the Old Ballard School, 
which used to be out in the Pleasant Hill section; and when 
wTe built the new school and incorporated the two names, 
Ballard and Hudson, it was erected there on Anthony Road, 
quite a plant and quite a campus.

Q. Thank you, sir.

By Mr. Jones:
Q. How do the physical facilities of Ballard-Hudson 

compare with the physical facilities of Dudley Hughes, or 
is it proper to ask you that question? Is that in your ter­
ritory? A. I could answer it but I don’t think I ought to 
answer it.



115

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants—Recross

Q. I withdraw the question! A. Because I ’m not per­
sonally familiar with the details of it. Mr. Kelley, of course, 
could or any of the others.

The Court: Do you have some questions, Mr. Hol­
lowed!

Mr. Hollowell: I have 2 or 3 questions, Your 
Honor, relating again to this vocational school. It 
seems that it gets clear and then it becomes unclear; 
and at the moment it’s just a little unclear to my 
mind.

Recross Examination by Mr. Hollowell:
Q. Mr. Atkinson, I understood you to testify that the 

vocational program on the Dudley Hughes campus is sepa­
rate and distinct from the program of the Dudley Hughes 
High School as such, is that correct! A. The program is 
separate. The facilities are within four walls for both of 
them at the present time. There’s just one building there.

Q. One building but separate programs! A. That’s 
right, for the adult program, on the one hand, and the high 
school on the other.

Q. So, a person who is enrolled in Dudley Hughes High 
School can take as a part of his curriculum subjects from 
the vocational program? A. He would not technically be 
a part of the adult vocational program, but I am quite cer­
tain that you’re correct, that there are some vocational 
courses taught on the high school level.

Q. Do you really know, sir? A. Well, I probably am 
not in a position to testify firmly as to that. I ’m sure that 
the details of both programs could be made available to 
where it wouldn’t be guesswork or speculation.



116

Judge Mallory C. Atkinson—for Defendants—Recross

Q. Now, at Ballard-Hudson I understood you to say 
there too that the vocational program was separate from 
the high school program! A. The adult vocational pro­
gram, yes.

Q. You’re saying the adult only! A. Yes, I ’m inclined to 
think that the same thing is true there, as I just stated 
that I thought at Dudley Hughes. That is, I think the high 
school student has an opportunity to take certain vocational 
courses.

Q. So, here again, you really don’t know? A. No, I 
wouldn’t testify to that, as a matter of fact.

Q. Now, let me ask you one other question: If a student 
was enrolled in Ballard-Hudson High School and there were 
courses in the vocational school of Dudley Hughes that he 
wanted to take, which courses were not offered in the voca­
tional program at Ballard-Hudson, would he be able to 
take those courses at Dudley Hughes? A. I am under the 
impression that that is exactly what is presently being 
done. I think we have at least one student that would fit 
in with that description; but there again, I ’m not certain 
of the details.

Q. All right; well, I don’t think you could answer my 
other question then. Thank you very much, Mr. Atkinson.

Mr. Jones: That’s all, Mr. Atkinson.
The Court: We’ll suspend now until 2 o’clock.
(Lunch Recess: 12:45 P.M. to 2 :00 P.M., April 

13,1963.)



117

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Direct

Mr. Jones: I ’ll ask Mr. Miller to take the stand. 
The Clerk will swear Mr. Miller. Yon may at this 
time want to swear two additional witnesses who 
are expected to follow, just one really, Mr. Cul- 
piepper.

(Mr. Miller & Dr. Culpepper sworn by Clerk)

M r. W allace M iller , J r., witness called in behalf of 
Defendants, being first duly sworn, testified on

Direct Examination by Mr. Jones:
Q. Your full name, I believe, is Wallace Miller, Jr.! A. 

That’s right.
Q. Your profession is that of the practice of law! A. 

Correct.
Q. Your home has been in Macon all of your life! A. 

Nearly 49 years ; all of my life, right.
Q. That was my next question, I ’ll skip that one. How 

long have you been practicing law here, Mr. Miller! A. 
Since 1940, with the exception of 2V2 years while in the 
Army, Air Corps.

Q. What is your present connection with the Board of 
Education of Bibb County! A. I ’m a Board member, sec­
retary of the Board, and chairman of the Claims and 
Auditing Committee; and also chairman of a special com­
mittee appointed by Dr. Hut Weaver, Chairman of the 
Board, in March of 1961.

Q. I ’ll ask you the same question that was asked Judge 
Atkinson, in view of your professional relationships and 
activities and as a member of the Board, have you gener­
ally kept informed as to the court decisions, State statutes 
and legislation bearing upon the questions which arose



118

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Direct

after the Brown decision in 1954? A. Generally, that’s a 
fair statement.

Q. You’re aware, of course, that many volumes have been 
filled with decisions of various eorrrts and I assume that 
you’re not claiming to be familiar with all of them? A. 
That’s correct.

Q. Mr. Miller, in 1961 will you state for the benefit of 
the Court generally what happened with regard to the 
existing legislation in the State of Georgia applying to the 
State as a whole, on the subject of separation of the races 
in the schools and public places? A. Well, as I under­
stand it, all such legislation prohibiting the integration of 
the races in the public schools was either repealed or wiped 
off of the books in some form or other.

Q. Now, the Legislature meets, I believe, for a period 
of 60 days in the early months of the year, starting in Jan­
uary and running through March, is that correct? A. I 
think that’s correct.

Q. And if I state that that’s what they did in ’61, you 
would accept that statement? A. I  certainly would.

Q. Then, the repealer laws that were adopted were dur­
ing that period, from January to March, i n ’61? A. That’s 
right.

Q. I hand you a copy of a letter, which was received by 
the Board of Education, addressed to Dr. Weaver, and ask 
you if you are familiar with the fact that that letter was 
received? A. Iam.

Q. Who is it from? A. It is from “Joint Chairmen of 
the Macon Council on Human Relations”, signed by E. B. 
Paschal and Jos. M. Hendricks, as co-chairmen of that 
Macon Council on Human Relations.

Q. Do you know Mr. Paschal? A. I knew him; he’s 
deceased.

Q. He’s deceased now? A. He is deceased.



119

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Direct

Q. Actually, some of the earlier correspondence, which 
was identified by Mr. Atkinson, was also written by Pas­
chal, was it not ! A. I think it was.

Q. Do you know when he died, approximately! A. I 
would say within the last 3 years, couple of years, about 
two years ago.

Q. Now, that letter has attached to it a couple of pages 
of written matter, does it not! A. It does, captioned 
“Statement”.

Q. And generally, wThat does that purport to be! I don’t 
mean in detail or in content but— A. Well, it’s generally 
a statement, as I interpret it, of the Macon Council on 
Human Relations, that was being directed to all public 
bodies in Bibb County, including the Mayor, City Council, 
Board of Education, County Commissioners, Sheriff’s office.

Q. Why do you say it was directed to all of those par­
ties! Or bodies? Does that appear from the statement 
itself or from the letter! A. It does, in my opinion.

Q. Will you read the language that you are referring 
to! It may be in either the letter or the statement, I ’m 
not certain which! A. Well, it may be in all of it but 
the general tenor of it, it is addressed to those different 
bodies and it says this: “The Macon Council of Human 
Relations respectfully suggests to the authorities of the 
City of Macon, of Bibb County, including the Bibb County 
Board of Public Education and Orphanage that a re-exami­
nation here, not only is logically called for as a result of 
changed state laws and abandonment of State legal stance 
of unflinching resistance, but that it is imperative to the 
continued well being and the preservation of the traditional 
harmony of our community.”

Mr. Hollowell: May it please the Court, I don’t 
want to impede but 1 would certainly have to object



120

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Direct

to reading the document. It has not been placed into 
evidence.

Mr. Jones: It was our intention, of course, to.
Mr. Hollowell: Reading the caption as to whom 

it was directed as distinguished from the contents of 
the letter.

The Court: That objection might as well be taken.
Mr. Jones: I will pause and ask the reporter to 

identify this communication, with the statement at­
tached to it, as Defendant’s Exhibit D-4. May I now 
proceed on the basis of that identification, or shall 
I formally offer it?

The Court: You probably show it to opposing 
counsel, if he wants to see it.

Mr. Jones: He has a copy of it, I ’m sure.
The Court: Do you have it ?
Mr. Hollowell: No, I don’t think I have. I ’m not 

sure but I don’t think I have.
Mr. Jones: At any rate, it’s referred to in their 

complaint.
Mr. Hollowed: I ’m not sure which one it is. (Ex­

hibit D-4 handed to counsel Hollowed) . . .
Mr. Jones: Here’s another copy if you want it. 

While counsel is referring to that, if Your Honor 
please, I might simply state that in the complaint 
it was alleged that in various communications and 
petitions, the Board of Education was made aware 
of the dissatisfaction of the Negro people of this 
community, and this particular communication was 
specifically enumerated in there; and I assume that 
counsel must have had a copy of it when he drafted 
his complaint.

The Court: All right, sir; you are tendering it 
in evidence ?



121

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Direct

Mr. Jones: I will tender it in evidence. I had 
thought of doing that at the conclusion of the presen­
tation but I ’ll be glad to tender it right now.

The Court: Any objection, Mr. Hollowell?
Mr. Hollowed: We see no objection to this. Your 

Honor.
The Court: Very well; we’ll admit it into evidence, 

D-4.

By Mr. Jones:
Q. Then, Mr. Miller, if I understand the answer which 

you’ve already given, this was not a communication ad­
dressed solely to the Board of Education, with sole and 
pointed reference to the school system, but was one ad­
dressed generally to the authorities of the City and County 
on the general subject? A. That’s correct, and the last 
paragraph is where I got what I have in mind. I ’ll read 
it, if I may. I t’s four short lines?

Q. Yes. A. It says, “We call upon our Mayor and Coun­
cil, the Board of County Commissioners, all County offi­
cials, the Board of Education, our State and local Judges, 
and our State legislators to join immediately in planning 
to meet the new era with sense and realism on the local 
scene.”

Q. Do you happen to know whether that communication 
was answered by Dr. Weaver? A. Yes sir, it was.

Q. I hand you what purports to be a copy of a letter 
signed actually by Dr. Weaver, dated February 27; is that 
the answer that you had in mind? A. That is.

Q. And this that you’ve handed me is— A. —a photo­
stat of the original.

Q. Is a photostatic copy? A. Bight.



122

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Direct

Mr. Jones: We ask that this be identified as De­
fendant’s Exhibit D-5. (So identified)

Q. What then happened, Mr. Miller, so far as the Board’s 
action was concerned, either as a result of or following 
the receipt of that communication? A. Well, Dr. Weaver, 
upon receipt of that communication, appointed a committee, 
entitled “Special Committee”, and he appointed it on March 
17,1961, naming myself as chairman and as other members, 
Judge Atkinson and Messrs. Rankin, Hertwig, Pickling and 
Willingham, to read the letter, study the letter, and to 
answer the letter, if we thought any answer was necessary; 
and our conclusion was that the answer of Dr. Weaver was 
sufficient.

Q. Now, picking up at that point, was there—you recog­
nized, of course, that the State laws, which we have previ­
ously mentioned, had been changed at that time? A. Yes 
sir.

Q. Did there continue any problem of a legislative or 
statutory nature in the face of this particular Board doing 
anything? A. Yes sir, it was Section 5 of our charter, 
which was adopted in 1872 by the Legislature.

Q. Would you read that into the record? A. All right, 
sir. “Section 5. Be I t F u rth er  E nacted that the said 
Board shall establish distinct and separate schools and 
orphan homes for white and colored children and shall not 
in any event place children of different color in the same 
school or orphan’s home.”

Q. At that time had any child or the parents of any child 
in the Bibb County School System applied for admission 
to a white school, as distinguished from a colored school; 
and, of course, I have reference to Negro children rather 
than to white children? A. You say up to that time, March



123

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Direct

of 1961, and up to this time, to my knowledge, no colored 
child or parent has made application to attend a white 
school that was not admitted into the school applied for, 
if the pupil was qualified.

Q. Did your Committee have several meetings at or about 
the time we are now talking about, say in the year 1961? 
A. We did, certainly did.

Q. Did that Committee ever file any further report or 
recommendation in writing to the Board in connection with 
the matter? A. Not during the year 1961.

Q. Was anything filed during the year 1962? A. No, I 
do not believe there was. The only thing before our Com­
mittee was this letter from the Council of Human Relations 
and we had concluded that no additional reply to the Coun­
cil was needed, in view of Dr. Weaver’s letter of February 
27, ’61.

Q. I now hand you a copy of a communication, dated 
March 8, 1963, addressed to Dr. Weaver, signed by seven 
individuals, Rev. E. S. Evans being the first name, and 
with that a copy of a letter, dated March 12, 1963 from D:r. 
Weaver to those same individuals: Are you familiar with 
that? A. I am.

Q. Was that matter referred to your Committee? A. 
It was upon receipt of it.

Q. And did your committee then again meet and consider 
it? A. We did.

Q. Suppose you state, if you can, without me attempting 
to direct you, what steps 'were taken immediately thereafter, 
possibly starting with the appearance of the Committee, the 
appearance of these Plaintiffs before the Committee? A. 
Well, this letter of March 8, which you just referred to, 
1963, signed by Rev. E. S'. Evans and six other parties, 
was answered by Dr. Weaver. Well, first, the letter was



124

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Direct

asking for an audience to, quote, or “for (quote) the pur­
pose of airing certain grievances pertaining to public edu­
cation in Macon and Bibb County.”

And under date of March 12, ’63, Dr. Weaver wrote the 
seven signers of that letter a response and told them, in 
substance, that the agenda for the next Board meeting, 
which was on the 14th, I believe it was, I may be wrong 
about my dates—

Q. That is correct actually? A. Was already filled up 
but if they wanted to come at that meeting, that 5 minutes 
could be allotted to them. However, I believe Dr. W'eaver 
further said in that letter that, in keeping with the General 
Board procedure, it would be preferable if they would 
reduce their grievances to writing; and if they wanted to 
come at some later time, they could have more time, more 
than five minutes.

Q. I would like right there to ask the reporter to iden­
tify both of these letters, the letter of March 8 and the 
letter of March 12? A. How about using this and let me 
have that one back ?

Mr. Jones: Mr. Hollowell, I  stated to you earlier 
that I was assuming you had all of these already, 
but I ’ll be glad to give you a copy of anything that 
you may wish me to.

Mr. Hollowell: Maybe I had better check it and 
be sure whether we’re talking about the same thing.

Mr. Jones: This is D-6, the two letters, both of 
them together.

Q. Now, are you ready to go ahead from that point then 
and state what happened following that? A. At the meet­
ing of the Board, the regular meeting of the Board, on



125

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Direct

March 14, 1963, which was the second Thursday in the 
month, the regular meeting date of the Board, there ap­
peared before the Board several of the parties who signed 
that letter. I cannot identify them all. I know that William 
P. Randall was there and I believe Rev. Evans was there 
and Rev. Malone was there, and I believe Lewis Wynne 
was there. I ’m not positive about the last, one, nor positive 
about any of them except William Randall, because I recall 
him, because he made the following statement to the Board, 
when Dr. Weaver asked him, gave him audience and gave 
him an opportunity to be heard; and he made to the Board 
a statement substantially thusly:

“Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the Board: We 
should like to present a petition from adult citizens of 
Bibb County, relative to the present status of the 
school system.”

Mr. Hollowell: Well, excuse me just a moment, 
sir. What does this purport to be from which he’s 
reading now, from the standpoint of record? Does 
this purport to be a part of the resolution, not resolu­
tion but minutes ? Or is this a narrative of that which 
was allegedly said?

The Witness: This is a copy, Your Honor, of 
what William Randall was reading from or had in 
his hand and was looking at when he was speaking 
to the Board on March 16, 1963, and left a copy or 
so with the Board, and I have a copy of it; and, 
rather than try to rely on my memory as to what he 
said, I was reading from what he left. It appears to 
be exactly what he said.

Mr. Hollowell: Is this an official document of the 
Board? Is this an official document of the Board,



126

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Direct

what you have retained as the secretary of the 
Board?

The Witness: No, I wouldn’t say it’s official docu­
ment of the Board. I’d say it’s a memorandum that 
William Randall left with us on March 14, 1963.

Mr. Hollowell: When you say “us”, you’re speak­
ing of the Board?

The Witness: Speaking of the Board, of course. 
He laid it on the table.

Mr. Hollowell: I think I would like to take a look 
at it before it’s read from into the record.

The Court: Very wed.
Mr. Jones: There are two papers here attached, 

Your Honor. One is a statement which counsel was 
just referring to, which is addressed to, “Mr. Chair­
man and gentlemen of the Board.”

Attached to it is a paper bearing the same date 
denominated “Petition,” and referred to in the letter.

The Court: Very well. (Documents handed to 
counsel Hollowed) . . .

Q. Now, you may proceed, Mr. Miller? A. (Reading): 
“Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the Board: We should 
like to present a petition from adult citizens of Bibb County 
relative to the present status of the school system. We 
had hoped that after presenting this petition, we might 
be able to discuss with you some of the reactions in the 
Negro community on this subject and to submit ourselves 
to questioning from you gentlemen.

“However, with a limitation of 5 minutes renders this 
impossible. We would wish to convince you gentlemen 
that we are desperately anxious to have this situation re­
solved by the Board and local citizens, rather than by the



127

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Direct

Federal Courts. We appreciate your suggestion that we 
reduce this matter to writing for referral to a proper com­
mittee, but we would respectfully remind you gentlemen 
that we did this very thing 9 years ago. The matter was 
referred to a committee. Said committee seemed to have 
been the grave yard for the petition as we have heard 
nothing from this committee as of this very moment.

‘“'You can appreciate the fact that time is of the essence 
in this instance and to delay our parents until your next 
meeting might seriously affect our efforts to have this 
matter settled by the next September term of school.”

Now, that’s all that was said, and I might make this 
observation: Referring to petition of nine years ago, I do 
not believe that over one, if that many, of the signers of 
the petition of 1954 or ’55 were present at the Board meet­
ing on March 14. When they say “we”, they’re speaking 
of someone else other than themselves.

Q. In any event, that statement was read at the meeting 
by Mr. Randall! A. On March 14,1963.

Q. On March 14? A. Yes.
Q. And there is attached to the paper from which you’re 

reading what purports to be a petition; was that then 
filed or was it read or what happened to it? A. It was 
filed. When I say “filed”, it was laid on the Board’s table 
out there, where we were meeting, in conjunction with this 
statment of William Randall’s that they wanted to petition 
the Board.

Q. Now, I believe you stated that these were not official 
documents of the Board. Actually, do you happen to know 
whether they were picked up and preserved by Mr. Ghol- 
son? A. They were.

Q. And retained in the files ? A. They were.



128

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Direct

Mr. Jones: I would like to identify this letter, 
communication or this statement, of March 14 and 
the petition attached thereto.

(Identified as Defendants’ Exhibit No. 7)
Mr. Hollowell: Is it D-6 or 7 ?
The Clerk: 7.
Mr. Hollowell: What was D-6 then!
The Clerk: It was two letters, letter of 3-8-63 and 

3-12-63.

By Mr. Jones:

Q. Did anything else bearing on this matter transpire 
at that meeting or was that the substance of it? A. That 
was the substance of that meeting.

Q. Now, was a subsequent meeting arranged by the Spe­
cial Committee? A. There was.

Q. At which there was an appearance? A. There was; 
because of the statement that I just read about the limita­
tion to 5 minutes, I personally contacted William P. Ran­
dall, whom I knew before this occasion, and told him that 
we would give him a hearing and his committee or his 
group, would listen to them whatever they had to say since 
he said the 5 minutes was not enough on the 14th, at some 
particular date; and I believe he and I agreed on the date 
of April 8,1963.

At any rate, that is the date that William Randall and 
Lewis Wynne and Rev. Malone and 3 or 4 others came to 
a hearing before the two special committees. I mean two 
committees. I might add that in the interim here—we 
passed over it—my special committee was appointed on 
this letter from Paschal, from the Council of Human Rela-



129

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Direct

tions; and then when we got this communication on March 
14,1963 is when—

Q. March 8 probably? A. Was it March 8?
Q. Well, that was the first letter? A. Let me get my 

record here and we’ll get it exactly right.
Q. I didn’t mean to correct you but the communication 

which was received by letter was dated March 8, and the 
meeting at which they appeared was March 14? A. Well, 
sometime around—here I ’ve got it right here—on March 
14 is the day that Dr. Weaver appointed the Rules and 
Regulations Committee, headed by Mr. William A. Fiebling, 
to serve jointly with my so-called “Special Committee” in 
this particular matter.

And, as I say, William Randall and I agreed to a meeting 
at the Board office on April 8, 1963, and the meeting was 
held.

Q. Excuse me—had you completed that statement? A. 
Well, I was just going to say and at the meeting every­
thing that was said was taken down on tape and has been 
transcribed.

Q. Now, I don’t myself see any particular reason for 
going into the discussions at that meeting, but I will ask 
you if following that meeting you, as chairman of this 
committee, called on the Board’s counsel for a legal opinion 
of any sort? A. I did. It was very serious question in 
my mind and all of the other lawyer members of the Board; 
and when we discussed it—when I say “we”, the lawyer 
members of the Board, I mean on these two committees— 
we discussed it with the other members of the Committee, 
and they were concerned about this prohibition in Section 
5 of our charter that made it mandatory, as I read it, for 
ns to maintain separate schools for the white and colored 
children; and I was fearful and the other members of the



130

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Direct

committee were fearful that, if the Board under any cir­
cumstances attempted to operate segregated schools, that 
is schools wherein white and colored pupils were in the 
same school, that the State of Georgia might contend or 
the State courts might rule that we were without authority 
to operate anything but segregated schools; and we asked 
counsel, who was yourself, to give us an opinion on that 
particular point.

Q. Do you have the original letter? A. I do.
Q. In your files? A. I do, dated April 13, 1963.

Mr. Jones: I ’m quite sure that Mr. Hollowell has 
not seen this letter, if Your Honor please, and I 
will now hand him a copy of it, so that he may refer 
to it. My recollection is that it was referred to and 
probably alleged in the State court proceeding which 
was filed and there may even be a copy of it attached 
to that; I ’m not quite certain. (Letter handed to 
Mr. Hollowell) . . .

No, it’s simply referred to in the 7th paragraph 
of the complaint, as advice received by the Board 
from its counsel, without attaching a copy.

Mr. Jones: I would like for the reporter to identify 
this letter as one of the Defendants’ exhibits. (Iden­
tified as Defendants’ Exhibit No. D-8)

Q. Mr. Miller, following the receipt of that letter, did 
the committee or the Board give any direction to the 
Board’s attorney regarding further procedure? A. We 
did. The substance of that letter was, after reviewing the 
situation, that it was not a question that the Board’s coun­
sel wanted to determine in and of himself, and that it was 
a serious question; and that there was precedent both ways.



131

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Direct

And, therefore, under date of April 24, 1963, the Rules and 
Regulations Committee and the Special Committee had a 
meeting and adopted a resolution and presented it to the 
Board, which was adopted by the Board, calling upon and 
requesting and directing the Board’s counsel to apply to 
the Courts for a determination of that particular question.

Q. Do you have a copy of that resolution? A. Yes sir, 
Ido.

Q. Could I have it? A. Yes sir (handing resolution 
to Mr. Jones). It has a little memorandum at the top that 
might not be relevant to the resolution but it is relevant 
to something else.

Mr. Jones: Yes. Would like to see that, Mr. Hollo- 
well. (Tendering resolution to Mr. Hollowell).

Mr. Jones: I ask that that be identified as De­
fendants’ exhibit. (Identified as Defendants’ Exhibit 
No. 9) . . .

I might explain this note at the top, which, of 
course, has nothing to do with it, with the exhibit; 
but there is a reference there “Premature to say 
what the Board or any member might do pending a 
decision by the Court of the Board’s authority.” 
That, of course, is not offered as part of the exhibit 
and can be deleted at some proper time.

Q. I presume that was a personal notation by you, I ’m 
not sure? A. That’s what I told the news media when 
they called me up, I forgot who it was, George Doss or 
one of them.

Q. Now, Mr. Miller, following the adoption of that reso­
lution, is it a fact that the Board’s attorneys did proceed 
with the preparation of a petition? A. Yes sir.



132

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Direct

Q. Who were the Board’s attorneys at that time? A. 
Yourself, Mr. C. Baxter Jones, and Mr. Charles C. Bloch.

Q. Charles J. Bloch? A. Charles J. Bloch, I beg your 
pardon.

Q. Did you on one or more occasions during the prep­
aration and drafting of that petition, confer with coun­
sel? A. Yes sir.

Q. And other members of the committee to some extent? 
A. Bight, particularly the other lawyer members of the 
committee, and other members too, including Mr. Fielding, 
who, of course, doesn’t profess to be a lawyer.

Q. I hand you a copy of the petition which was tiled 
pursuant to that resolution in the Superior Court of Bibb 
County? A. Right.

Q. Is that a copy of it? A. This is it, yes sir.

Mr. Jones: I ask that that be identified as a De­
fendants’ exhibit, (Identified as Defendants’ Exhibit 
No. 10) . . .

Q. Now Mr. Miller, I ’m not concerned myself with the 
subsequent pleadings in that case, nor with the briefing or 
hearings in that case, but are you aware that the Superior 
Court of Bibb County, Judge Aultman, did render a de­
claratory judgment in that action? A. Iam.

Q. Do you have a copy of that? A. Ido.
Q. Is it in form that you could spare it for Identification 

in this proceeding, or I have a copy here? A. Here it is.
Q. Is this the declaratory judgment order? A. It is. 

I t’s not dated, however.
Q. I t’s dated by month, at least; what date does it bear? 

A. Blank day of July, 1963.

Mr. Jones: I would like, if Your Honor please, to 
supply the exact date of that order wrhich I will



133

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Direct

undertake to do, but at the moment I will ask that 
it be identified as a Defendant’s exhibit. (Identified 
as Defendant’s Exhibit D-ll)

By Mr. Miller:
A. I do know it was dated before July 30 of ’63. I think 
it was the early part of July actually.

Q. Well, actually, if I should tell you that it was dated 
within the first three days of July and was then considered 
at a meeting that was called on the 8th, to be held on July 
11, would that sound about right? A. Yes sir.

Q. I think I ’ll just leave it there then? A. Yes sir.
Q. Did the committee, of which you were chairman, then 

have further meetings and take further action in the light 
of the result of that declaratory judgment proceeding? A. 
We did, both committees.

Q. Can you state when that was resolved by some form 
of resolution? A. On July 30,1963.

Q. And do you have a copy of the resolution of the 
Board? A. I do.

Q. Is that not the copy which is attached to the Defen­
dant’s answer in this present case? A. It is.

Q. Is this a copy of it, Mr. Miller? A. It is. I have seen 
this before. That’s why I can identify it so quickly.

Mr. Jones: I would like to have that identified. 
(Identified as Defendant’s Exhibit No. 12)

Q. Mr. Miller, the conclusion of the action by the com­
mittee at that time was a recommendation that no voluntary 
plan of segregation— A. Integration.

Q. —would be formulated, is that correct? A. No volun­
tary plan of integration.



134

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Direct

Q. Yes, of desegregation or integration? A. That’s 
right.

Q. Will you state the reasoning of the committee in reach­
ing that conclusion? A. Well, the reasoning is set forth 
about as well as could be expressed by me in the resolution. 
But No. 1, the committee felt, that is the majority of the 
committee felt, that the Bibb County system of education, 
since the inception of the Board in 1872, had been success­
ful, and that the founders of the Board were wise in putting- 
in the charter that the races be separated in the schools.

And the Committee, of course, recognized the ease of 
Brown and the subsequent cases in the Supreme Court 
of the United States, reversing previous decisions of the 
Federal courts; and the Committee recognized what the 
courts would do on application to the courts for integration 
of the races.

However, the majority of the committees, both commit­
tees, were of the opinion that it was not to the best interest 
of the white or colored people in Bibb County, Georgia, 
City of Macon or State of Georgia, for the colored and 
white to go to school together. That was the opinion of 
the majority of them, and the majority of the members of 
the committees, and subsequently of the Board, did not 
feel that it was incumbent upon the Board of Education to 
voluntarily inaugurate a system of education that the ma­
jority of the Board felt would be detrimental to the com­
munity, the children and the parents, thought that respon­
sibility laid elsewhere; and, therefore, took the action that 
it did.

Q. Now had you, at the time that resolution was adopted, 
received any reason or any notification of the imminent 
filing of a suit in the United States Court? A. We did.



135

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Direct

Q. In what form was that notice received? A. The form 
of the notice, it is paramount in my mind right now, was 
verbal from William P. Randall, who I might say appar­
ently succeeded as the head of the local chapter of the 
NAACP, when Dr. J. S. Williams left town early in ’55 
or ’56, I believe it was. There was no action on any appli­
cation to the Board from about ’55 up until ’63 actually 
from any branch of the NAACP.

Mr. Hollowell: We object to that, “who appar­
ently”, may it please the Court. If he knows, then 
I think it would be appropriate; but for him to say 
who apparently was the successor to Mr. 3. S. Wil­
liams in ’56,1 think is inappropriate.

The Witness: Well, so far as any communication 
to the Board is concerned, I know that to be a fact.

By Mr. Jones:
Q. In other words, you know that Randall succeeded Wil­

liams or followed Williams at some time as chairman of the 
local branch of the NAACP? A. I don’t know actually 
whether he was chairman but he was the spokesman and 
the leading light and the one that contacted me.

Q. He was the spokesman then? A. Yes.

Mr. Hollowell: That’s ad right, “spokesman”.

By Mr. Jones:
Q. Now, when the resolution was adopted, what I was try­

ing to find out was whether it was then known or reasonably 
anticipated that the entire matter would immediately be 
referred to this Court? A. It was known in my mind from 
William Randall and maybe other sources. In fact, I think 
the resolution so states.



136

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Direct

Q. I believe it does also? A. And I think where we got 
that was from William P. Randall.

Q. You spoke a minute ago of certain attitudes and 
thoughts of the members of the Committee or the majority 
of the committee, regarding the desirability of certain 
things: Was there any attitude on the part of any member 
of the committee to resist a form of desegregation, or was 
that deemed to be inevitable and not resisted? A. Well, 
I  don’t know whether the members determined that it was 
inevitable but there was, of course, a uniform and 100% 
feeling among the Board members that there would be no 
resisting to any legal, lawful integration of the schools in 
Bibb County, Georgia; and there won’t be any. I can say 
that.

Q. There was no such feeling then and there is no such 
feeling now? A. Correct.

Q. In this proceeding now, is the Board contesting a 
desegregation order? A. None at all. We are hoping and 
praying for moderation, so it will be without what we have 
read about happening in other cities.

Q. What you have in mind is that you hope it will be 
an order which the Board can enforce? A. Yes sir, and 
be in moderation and gradualism.

Q. Whatever the form of this order is, is it the bona fide 
and honest intention of the Board of Education to put that 
order into effect? A. Within the limits of our ability.

Q. After this suit was filed in this Court, which followed 
very shortly, your committee then ceased to function as a 
committee; is that correct? A. Functus officio, yes sir.

Q. And has there been any other special committee that 
you know of that has dealt with this subject since then? 
A. No sir.

Mr. Jones: The witness is with you.



137

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Cross

Cross Examination by Mr. Hollowell:
Q. I believe you indicated in the beginning of the direct 

examination that you were among those lawyers who were 
members of the Board that were keeping up generally with 
the desegregation cases, as they related to public schools, 
right! A. That’s correct, and principally I will have to 
concede my source of information was the newspapers. 
I read very few cases, actual cases, reported cases.

Q. When did you begin to read the cases! A. The first 
case I was was the Brown case; that’s the implementation 
of the Brown case I ’m talking about.

Q. The’55 decision? A. The’55 decision.
Q. When did you first read it? A. As soon as it came 

out, I forget.
Q. And at that time the Board concluded that it would 

continue its same policy of segregation in the public school 
system, is that correct? A. I wouldn’t say the Board con­
cluded anything at that time.

Q. Well, it continued to do so? A. No doubt about it.
Q. And even as late as 1961, when the committee was first 

formed, there was no intention of desegregating then, was 
there? A. I won’t say there was no intention; no, I can’t 
say that, I can’t say there was or wasn’t, but I can—

Q. No action was taken to that end? A. I think that’s 
a fair statement. I  can say this though, if I may, between 
those two times you were talking about. Of course, I was 
on Judge Atkinson’s committee and we had two petitions 
that were signed by Dr. J. S. Williams, and I think Dr. 
Williams left Macon sometime in the early part of ’56; and 
we had heard nothing from any one the balance of ’56, ’57, 
’58, ’59, ’60, ’61 and ’62, except this Human Relations; and,



138

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Cross

frankly, I thought in my mind that the majority, to say 
the least, of the colored citizens of Macon felt like I  did, 
that the system we had was what we wanted and what they 
wanted.

Q. This was in your mind? A. It was; maybe it was 
wishful thinking but it was certainly there.

Q. There hadn’t been anybody, any group, that had so 
told you? A. No.

Q. Now, this charter provision, Section 5; you were 
aware that that section was there back in ’54 and ’55 and 
from then on up until the time that the suit was filed, 
weren’t you? A. I reckon I was aware of the fact that it 
was in there before ’55. I know I was aware of it in ’55 
because it was pointedly brought out by this Brown case.

Q. So that, actually the fact that the suit was ultimately 
brought concerning it was not with the view in mind of 
desegregating, was it? A. My own personal opinion, I 
can tell you what my personal opinion was. I  can’t speak 
for other members. However, they voted along the same 
way I did. It wasn’t my idea, if the Superior Court of Bibb 
County, Georgia ruled that Bibb County Board of Educa­
tion could operate integrated schools, that we could volun­
tarily start integrating our schools. That was not in my 
mind.

Q. And this was the attitude as ultimately expressed 
by the Board, by majority of the Board? A. In the reso­
lution. My thought about getting this order from the 
Superior Court of Bibb County, Georgia was, if Mr. Ran­
dall and his associates fulfilled their threat and went to 
the Federal Court and got an order requiring integration, 
that this Board of Education would be legally operating 
an integrated school; and I would not be satisfied of that 
until we got a decision from the State court as to our 
authority to operate an integrated school.



139

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Cross

Q. I see; you felt that it took a court order from the 
Federal Court before you would be legally operating? A. 
No.

Q. A desegregated school? A. No, I did not make my­
self clear. I felt that we would not and could not operate 
legally an integrated school until the State courts, State 
of Georgia courts so held.

Q. Suppose a Federal Court so held that? A. I don’t 
think the Federal Court has got that authority.

Q. Well, you said until a State court so held; say, sup­
pose a Federal Court so held? A. I  was of the opinion that 
a Federal Court could not tell the Board of Education, an 
instrumentality of the State of Georgia, as to their con­
tractual relations between the two. I thought it took the 
State of Georgia courts to do that and still think so.

Q. Is that so? A. Yes.
Q. You would stand corrected, however, if shown to 

the contrary? A. If I ’m shown to my satisfaction to the 
contrary, I not only stand correct but I admit correction.

Q. Mr. Wallace, at the time that the last resolution was 
passed by the Board and prior to the time that the suit 
was filed, there had been no change in policy whatsoever 
by the Board as relates to the maintenance of schools and 
staff in the public school system on a segregated basis, is 
that correct? A. If there has been any, I know of none.

Q. Incidentally, were you here this morning when Dr. 
Atkinson suggested that school teachers who coached, in 
addition to carrying a regular class load, received extra 
compensation; did you hear that this morning? A. I think 
I did.

Q. That’s not true at Ballard-Hudson and Appling High 
schools, is it? A. I thought it was.



140

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Cross

Q. Do you know? A. I don’t know whether what Judge 
Atkinson said is true. I  think it is. I ’ve never seen the pay 
checks. I ’ve never signed one and never delivered one. 
But I  thought they got extra compensation for extra work. 
If they don’t, they should, white or colored.

Q. In the preparation of this plan, there was an effort 
to move just as slowly as possible, consistent with taking- 
some kind of start; is that not true? Or making some kind 
of start? A. No, it certainly is not. I  think there is some 
responsibility on the Board to recommend to this Federal 
Court that gradualism and moderation be practiced, be­
cause as a result of this thing, of this integration of the 
public schools, as you well know and as I  know, can result 
between complete peace and tranquility on the one hand 
and utter chaos, violence and turmoil on the other.

Q. Well, Mr. Miller— A. Now, that’s my reason for 
wanting to go slow.

Q. I see. Now, do you know of any school, any grade 
school, any high school, where there has been, as you say 
and as you would suggest, a mass desegregation and that 
has resulted in any of the things that you are talking about? 
A. You say—•

Q. If so, name me one? A. You say I ’m suggesting mass 
desegregation? I ’m not doing that.

Q. I mean, you’re not suggesting that the presence of 
a few Negroes and whites together in a public school sys­
tem would be resulting in some kind of chaos, are you? A. 
Now, when you say a “few” colored students in a white 
school, how many are you speaking of? Give me the ratio, 
because I think it makes a lot of difference what the ratio 
is.

Q. Well, let’s go back to the statement which you made? 
A. All right.



141

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Cross

Q. Where you talked about all of these things which 
have taken place; what is the largest number of persons 
that you have known of in any school that has desegregated 
and where there was difficulty? A. First hand knowledge, 
none; all of mine is hearsay; television, newspapers, maga­
zines. I have no personal knowledge of any of it and I 
hate to gain some, I ’ll be honest with you. I don’t want 
any.

Q. Well, as a member of the Board and as one who is 
working on the promulgation of a plan, wouldn’t you think 
it would be important to gain some knowledge on it? A. 
Knowledge of violence? No.

Q. Knowledge of what the practices have been and knowl­
edge of what has transpired in those places? A. Well, 
I know of no means that are available to me other than the 
ones I ’ve utilized.

Q. Papers ? A. Papers, magazines.
Q. Magazines? A. Television, radio.
Q. Have you read any of the studies? A. Read any of 

the what?
Q. Any of the studies or any of the reports of schools 

that have been desegregated? A. No, no.
Q. Then, really this is just some hearsay; this is just 

some conclusion that you have evolved in your own mind 
based upon some hearsay— A. And upon first

Q. _reports ? A. —and upon first-hand experience as a
bus boycott right here in Macon, Georgia, which you know 
a little about, and we had violence there.

Q. We’re not talking about busses; we’re talking about 
schools? A. The same difference. I t’s intermingling of 
the races is what caused it all.

Q. In your thinking. It might be just as well that it 
was the failure to integrate as well as the insistence on



142

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Cross

keeping the busses segregated that might cause, that might 
have caused your difficulty?

Mr. Jones: If Your Honor please, I don’t know 
who’s responsible for injecting the busses in here. 
It may have been the witness; but, if so, I move to 
strike his answer.

Mr. Hollowell: As a matter of fact, Your Honor,—
Mr. Jones: As well as all of the inquiry.
The Court: What do you say to that, Mr. Hollo- 

well?
Mr. Hollowell: I  would have no objection to the 

whole of that bit of conversation being stricken. I 
don’t believe it’s appropriate, anyhow.

The Court: Very well, we won’t go any further 
with it.

By Mr. Hollowell:
Q. So then, it is fair to conclude from your statements 

that you have no first-hand knowledge relating to anything 
that has happened in any of the schools that have been 
desegregated, whether they were de juri or de facto inte­
grated, isn’t that true, either in the North or the South? 
A. First-hand, the answer is no; and I wouldn’t have it 
first hand if I had read any treatise on any particular 
schools.

Q. I don’t believe I have any further questions for Mr. 
Miller.

Mr. Jones: You may come down, Mr. Miller. Oh, 
I ’m sorry, I wanted to try to clear up one thing.



143

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants-—Redirect—Recross

Redirect Examination by Mr. Jones:
Q. I ’m not certain that yon and counsel were talking to 

the same point in your last set of questions. A. All right, 
sir.

Q. I understood you to say that the Board hoped that 
there would he a program of desegregation, which would 
permit a peaceful transition, rather than a program which 
would be so comprehensive and drastic as to create the 
opposite of that condition; was that what you were talking 
about ? A. That’s what I intended to say and I used the 
words “moderation” and “gradualism”. Those were my 
words.

Q. You were suggesting that violence or chaos would— 
A. I ’m advocating the opposite.

Q. —come from the desegregation proposal which is 
included in our plan? A. No sir, I ’m advocating exactly 
the opposite. I  think our plan will be conducive to peace 
and tranquility in the so-called transition.

Q. That’s all.

Recross Examination by Mr. Hollowell:
Q. Let me ask you a question then: The reason then that 

I conclude that you’re suggesting that there be this 
“snail’s pace”—I think that would be an appropriate con­
notation—is to avoid chaos and violence, etcetera; is that 
what you’re saying? A. Well, I  don’t like your phrase 
“snail’s pace”. If you’ll rephrase your question, I ’ll give 
you the best answer I can but I don’t think I should be 
called upon to answer that sort of a question.

Q. The slow pace of gradualism, which is inherent in 
this plan; does that clarify it for you? A. Well, No. 1, 
I don’t think it’s inherent in the plan myself. I think it’s 
fast enough. And that is one purpose of it, yes. That is 
one purpose of it, in my opinion, is to forestall as much



144

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Recross

friction—you’re going to have some friction now, with this 
plan; don’t think you aren’t—I hope you don’t.

Q. From your study of the cases, is that the basis for 
going slowly? A. That is one of the fundamental bases 
in my thinking, yes.

Q. From the cases that you have read? A. From what?
Q. From the cases dealing with these matters that you 

have read ? A. Oh no.
Q. You have concluded that this is the law, as has been 

handed down by the courts of appeal and the 4th, 6tli and 
7th circuits, in those courts? A.I don’t think I ’ve read 
that in any cases that I ’ve read or heard about. Now, I 
haven’t read many cases but I don’t think I ’ve heard that.

Q. This is your own personal response then, is that 
correct? A. If I had some discretion in it like a Federal 
Judge has, that’s the way my thinking would be.

Q. Even though the courts have said that this is no 
basis ? A. I don’t know that they have said that.

Mr. Jones: Now, if Your Honor please, I must 
question that because the courts haven’t said that; at 
least, I don’t acknowledge that they have; and coun­
sel is testifying to his attitude and the Board’s 
attitude and not to an interpretation of some par­
ticular court decision.

Mr. Hollowell: Well, if it please the Court, I think 
that in light of the testimony, as it has been elicited 
here, the question is most proper. Here is a Board, 
which is a self-perpetuating Board, has on it two 
Judges and two lawyers and has its counsel. They 
have all from time to time, it appears, deliberated; 
some of them have been on the committees, and sub­
committees ; they have litigated the matter in the 
State court—-



145

Wallace Miller, Jr.—for Defendants—Recross

The Court: I know but you were raising a ques­
tion about what the courts have held. I ’ll hear from 
you gentlemen about what the courts have held on 
that. He said he’s just read the newspapers anyhow 
and you can’t tell what the court holds from the 
newspapers.

Mr. Hollowell: I understood, Your Honor, that he 
has indicated that he has read some cases.

The Court: He said, I thought he said he read even 
the Brown decision in the newspaper.

Mr.Hollowe.il: No sir.
The Witness: No, I meant to say, if I  said it, I 

read the Brown decision in the Supreme Court Re­
ports but I ’ve left all of the other cases up to our 
able counsel to read and interpret.

Mr. Hollowell: I think that clarifies the matter. 
I understood he had read some cases, Your Honor.

By Mr. Hollowell:
Q. Do I understand your testimony to be that the Board 

took as a reason, among others, for not moving forward 
after the State Court decision last July, the fact that a 
Federal Court case was anticipated? A. I  didn’t quite 
follow that. I thought I was until you stopped and I thought 
you were going to say some more. Repeat that for me, 
please.

Q. I say, do I understand correctly that one of the rea­
sons that the Board took the position that it would not 
act toward desegregating the public schools, was because 
a Federal Court case was imminent? A. I wouldn’t say 
that was the opinion of the majority.

Q. They just felt that it was not the thing for them to 
do ? A. That’s exactly right.



146

Dr. Leon R. Culpepper—for Defendants—Direct

Q. And they still so feel, is that not correct? A. I can 
speak for myself. I still feel that way. I can’t speak for 
the balance of them at this stage of the game. I would 
assume so. I haven’t heard to the contrary. Let’s put it 
that way

Q. No further questions.

Mr. Jones: That’s all, Mr. Miller. Dr. Culpepper, 
will you take the stand please.

Dr. L eon  R. C u l pe ppe r , witness called in behalf of De­
fendants, being first duly sworn, testified on

Direct Examination by Mr. Jones:
Q. You have already been sworn, have you not? A. Yes 

sir.
Q. You are Dr. Leon R. Culpepper? A. That’s right, 

sir.
Q. You are presently connected with the Bibb County 

Board of Education? A. That’s true.
Q. Please state in what capacity at the present time? 

A. I am at present the Director of Research of the Bibb 
County Board of Education and Coordinator of Music. I 
also assist Mr. Gholson in some other projects.

Q. Is it contemplated that you will act as coordinator 
or director in connection with the implementation of this 
plan which may be approved by the Court? A. I will 
assist Mr. Gholson in implementing this plan, yes sir.

Q. In that particular connection, have you given con­
siderable study to the procedures for implementing the 
plan? A. I have, sir.

Q. Now, going back a little further, please state how long 
and in what capacities you have been connected with the



147

Dr. Leon R. Culpepper—for Defendants—Direct

Bibb County system? A. I came to Macon in 1947 as band 
director for Lanier High School, served there for 4 years; 
went back into the Navy for a couple of years; came back in 
’53 and from that time until the present having been serving 
as coordinator of music; and since 1960 as director of 
research, in addition to the other job.

Q. What does the term director—That’s since 1960, you 
say? A. Yes.

Q. What does the term director— That’s since 1960, you 
A. Well, primarily, it is embracing our instructional 
area, where we will—in which we will make studies of this 
method as compared to another method to see which one 
will give the best results and if it’s worthwhile for us to 
begin implementing one of these methods of instruction, 
we will do so.

Q. Generally methods which are suggested to improve 
the system of education? A. Yes sir.

Q. And you are Director of Research in that particular 
area? A. Yes sir.

Q. How old are you, Dr. Culpepper? A. I ’m 42.
Q. You have read, of course, the plan which was sub­

mitted by the Board of Education to this Court? A. Yes 
sir.

Q. And I think you said that you have specifically inter­
ested yourself in attempting to prepare various forms and 
procedures for implementing that plan? A. Yes sir.

Mr. Jones: If your Honor please, I would like 
at this time to give to the Court, as we desire to 
make reference to it, a set of papers, with reference 
to which this witness will be asked to testify and 
I ’ve already given counsel a copy and I ’ll be glad 
to give him another one.

Mr. Hollowell: Yes, if I might have another.



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Dr. Leon R. Culpepper—for Defendants—Direct 

By Mr. Jones:

Q. Dr. Culpepper, in the formulation of these imple­
menting documents, have you departed from or changed 
the plan, or are you merely implementing the plan! A. 
Merely implementing, insofar as I know.

Q. Now, in the batch of papers that you have the first 
document there is entitled “Procedure” for executing stu­
dent transfer requests”? A. Yes sir.

Q. And in outlining that procedure, I believe reference is 
made to other forms which are attached to it? A. Yes sir.

Q. I think I will ask you to consider that opening paper 
entitled “Procedures” and state the substance of the pro­
cedures therein dealt with? A. Do you want me to just 
give the procedure?

Q. Yes? A. That is in this?
Q. That’s right? A. Well, in substance, it says, the plan 

does, to begin with, all existing school assignments will 
remain in effect until such time as the student makes a 
request for a transfer; and during the 30 day period, to 
be announced later at the end of whenever this Court 
designates this plan is approved, that there will be a 30-day 
period, at which time students can make transfer in ac­
cordance with the plan, which, of course, would be for the 
12th grade for the next school year.

Students who desire to make a transfer will report to the 
Board of Education office, where they will be given the 
request form; they will be given a set of instructions, to 
be sure that they fill the form out correctly; they will be 
asked to sign a receipt for these instructions and these 
forms.

Q. Now, let’s stop right there, if you will? A. All right.
Q. You spoke of being given an application form; is 

that attached to this ? A. Yes sir.



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Dr. Leon B. Culpepper—for Defendants—Direct

Q. Package! A. These pages are not numbered but it 
comes right after page 5. The procedure is 5 pages long 
and the next thing is the application blank.

Q. And that is a blank form of application? A. Yes sir.
Q. For the transfer or assignment of pupils? A. That’s 

right.
Q. What information does that application call for? A. 

It asks for only the name, age, sex of the student, of course 
the date, the home address, the student’s birthdate, the 
parents’ names and their ages or the legal guardian; and 
if the child lives with which one, either the mother or the 
father or the guardian; asks for which school they are 
presently enrolled and which school they desire to transfer 
to and the reason for requesting a transfer; and then just 
a list of all of the schools—

Mr. Hollowell: Excuse me, Doctor. If it please 
the Court, these forms, I would presume, are going 
to be introduced; and wouldn’t they more or less 
speak for themselves. I would submit that the form 
is attached here and it shows what it shows, without 
the necessity, I should think, of having the record 
cluttered and increased by merely a repetition of that 
which is already going to be in the record, I assume, 
by virtue of the submission of these procedures into 
the record.

The Court: What’s your objection to having him 
explain it as we go along?

Mr. Hollowell: Well, I think it’s one thing to ex­
plain it but that didn’t appear to be what was going 
on. All he was doing was just reading the form as 
is and this was what I was objecting to, Your Honor.

The Court: Well, he was not reading it because 
I ’m looking at it. I read it before he got started,



150

Dr. Leon B. Culpepper—for Defendants—Direct

the blank form there; but he was summarizing it.
I think I ’ll let him go ahead.

By Mr. Jones:

Q. Go ahead, Dr. Culpepper— A. Then, of course, it 
asks for a list of all schools that they have attended, giving 
the date, and requires the signature of the student or the 
applicant and the parent and a witness.

Q. Now, that is the only form of application? A. That’s 
right.

Q. Which you have in mind providing? A. Yes sir.
Q. Where is that application form to be obtained? A. 

At the Board of Education office.
Q. Can it be completed there? A. Yes sir.
Q. At the initial visit? A. Yes sir.
Q. By the applicant? A. Yes sir, it can be completed 

in a matter of 3 or 4 minutes.
Q. Does it have to be completed there at that time? A. 

It does not have to be completed there.
Q. That means the applicant can take it away and have 

it completed and return it, is that right? A. Yes sir, and 
signed, as long as he has it witnessed by a witness.

Q. Now, there was a reference to an information sheet, 
which was also given to the applicant at that time: is that 
attached as the next document in this set of papers? A. 
That is true, sir.

Q. And what is the purpose of that? I ’m not asking for 
the contents or the total? A. Well, the purpose of it is 
to instruct the student as to how to sign this and to also 
give him other additional information about this procedure 
that will be followed, after he has turned the form in, what 
he can expect next.



151

Dr. Leon It. Culpepper—for Defendants—Direct

Q. We will come back to that but, generally speaking, 
does that repeat really a great deal of the— A. Yes sir.

Q. —material which is set forth in the first document! 
A. That’s true.

Q. That is, the first document, entitled “Procedure for 
Executing Student Transfer” is an inter-office regulation 
or will be rather at the appropriate time! A. Yes sir.

Q. And the student information form is designed to 
supply that information to the student! A. Yes sir.

Q. And to some extent they overlap, is that a correct 
statement? A. Yes sir.

Q. Now, the third document then that was referred to, 
you said he would be requested to sign a receipt for it? 
A. Yes sir.

Q. Is that prepared and attached here following the 
information sheet? A. Yes sir, it is.

Q. And it merely acknowledges receipt of the application 
and a copy of the information sheet, referred to above? 
A. Yes sir.

Q. And is signed by the student? A. Yes sir.
Q. Now, getting back then, all of that are matters which 

are handled on the first visit of the applicant to the office 
of the Superintendent, is that correct? A. Yes sir.

Q. Suppose the application is then completed and filed, 
after proper information and whatever else goes with it, 
what happens to the application? A. Immediately the 
Superintendent then sends what we call a “student data 
form” to the school from which the student is presently or 
from where he was originally enrolled.

Q. Well, we’re talking about applications for transfer, 
so we’re talking about students who are already in one 
school? A. Yes sir, so we will send it to his original school.

Q. To the principal of that school? A. That’s right, to 
the original assignment, we’ll call it; and we’ll request



152

Dr. Leon R. Culpepper—for Defendants—Direct

certain information, his transcript and additional informa­
tion like that.

Q. Now, that “student data” form is also, I  believe? A. 
Attached.

Q. Prepared and attached here too? A. Yes sir.
Q. And it is the document so identified immediately fol­

lowing the applicant’s receipt for the other? A. The re­
ceipt, yes sir.

Q. Will you turn to that please in your set of papers? 
A. All right sir, I have it.

Q. I ’ll ask you to read the communication from the 
Superintendent to the principal, the first four lines? A. 
“Dear Principal: The below listed pupil has made appli­
cation for transfer or reassignment to another school. 
Please furnish this office with a complete transcript of his 
or her work, a summary of additional information includ­
ing his or her attitude, cooperation and stability, plus his 
scores on the scholastic aptitude and achievement tests.” 
Signed “Julius Gtiolson, Superintendent.”

Q. And there is a space following that for the student’s 
name and school and present grade? A. Yes sir.

Q. With reference to the “complete transcript” what 
does that usually supply? What is the student’s transcript? 
A. The transcript is nothing more than the courses that 
the students have taken with the grades that they have 
made on these courses.

Q. Is that necessary to have, in order to determine the 
eligibility of a student for a particular grade ? A. It would 
be, yes sir.

Q. Now, there is a scholastic aptitude reference below 
that and an achievement record: will you please explain 
those? A. These are just routine tests that are given in 
our 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th grades. The scholastic apti-



153

Dr. Leon B. Culpepper—for Defendants-—Direct

tude tests are given in all 8th and 10th grades in all of our 
schools and the achievements are given in the 9th and 11th.

Q. Those are not tests which are to be made at the time 
of this application? A. Oh no sir.

Q. But test records already in the student’s file? A. 
This is already in the student’s file, ves sir, at the school.

Q. Going back to the first document, the procedure; after 
this request is sent by the Superintendent to the principal, 
then what happens? A. After he sends the student data 
form to the principal, the principal will fill this, the one 
that we were just looking at, he fills that out and sends it 
back to the Superintendent. And within ten (10) days from 
that time, after the student data form is received, the Super­
intendent will determine whether or not the student is 
eligible for transfer, and he’ll make the decision on his 
eligibility strictly on his record that came in, the tran­
script; also the availability and also the capacity of the 
school to which he asks for transfer to.

Q. Now, you mentioned eligibility, availability and ca­
pacity? A. Yes sir.

Q. I assume that eligibility has reference to the student’s 
advancement to the point with proper credits to entitle him 
to enter that particular grade, is that right? A. Yes sir, 
student completing the 11th grade in one school would be 
eligible to go into the 12th grade of another school.

Q. That’s right, so that in the ease of any student who 
is a member of the 11th grade at the time this application 
is made,, or who has completed the 11th grade at the time 
the application is made, assuming that he does complete 
the grade, in the first instance, would be eligible. A. Yes 
sir.

Q. Within the requirements? A. Yes sir, he would be 
eligible.

Q. Under these regulations for that grade? A. Yes sir. 
even before any of these forms came in, he would be eligible.



154

Dr. Leon R. Culpepper—for Defendants—Direct

Q. That’s right, he’s eligible but with the determination 
as to eligibility being measured solely by that consideration? 
A. Yes sir.

Q. Then, you mentioned the term “availability”; now, are 
you there talking about availability of the facilities to the 
student, the student to the facilities or just exactly what? 
A. Mainly, the student to the facilities. It would be a 
little unwieldy for a student, say over across the river, 
to ask to go to a school away out in South Macon. And so, 
that’s what we mean, available as far as transportation and 
close proximity to the school.

Q- Now, in the absence of close proximity, could that 
necessary proximity be supplied by adequate transporta­
tion arrangement? A. Yes sir.

Q. Then, when you refer to the term “availability”, do 
you understand it to mean that it will be accessibility of the 
school to the student? A. That’s mainly, yes sir.

Q. From the point of view of his residence and available 
transportation? A. Yes sir.

Q. Now, based on that determination, if that availability 
exists, do I understand then that he would be entitled? A. 
He would be accepted, being eligible and available.

Q. The third test or third factor to be considered is the 
factor of capacity, and what do you there have in mind, 
capacity of what? A. There, that means strictly the physi­
cal capacity of the building. You can get only so many desks 
in a room. If you’ve got the capacity that you can put in 
there, you can’t add more. If there is space, he would be 
taken.

Q. Then, in the operation of this plan, do I understand, 
as you have prepared these papers—- A. Yes sir.

Q. —with some assistance, of course, do I understand 
that if a transfer is requested by a Negro student to a white



155

Dr. Leon B. Culpepper—for Defendants—Direct

school in the 12th grade, if he is eligible on the basis of 
his record, if the facilities are in such proximity or other­
wise as to be available to him, and if the school has capacity 
to receive that student, then a determination would be made 
approving the transfer, is that correct? A. It would be 
approved, yes sir.

Q. Now, I ’ll ask you to read the next paragraph of the 
procedures, paragraph 7? A. “Before taking final ac­
tion on a requested transfer the Superintendent may de­
cide that a conference is necessary with the applicant and 
his or her parents or guardian to point out and possibly 
clear up discrepancies or irregularities on the face of the 
record, and before approving the application the Super­
intendent may decide that such a conference is desirable to 
point out other reasons, if any, why in his opinion it is not 
in the applicant’s own best interest to actually make the 
requested transfer. The applicant may after such confer­
ence accept or reject the Superintendent’s advisory recom­
mendation which shall be noted on the application.”

Q. Under what conditions can you consider that the 
Superintendent might deem it advisable to confer with the 
applicant and to advise him that it is not in his best inter­
est to make the transfer? A. Well, we have certain stand­
ards in all of the schools. If the student transferring was 
just barely passing and yet he was asking to enroll in the 
12th grade in a college preparatory class with students 
that had had subjects maybe that he had not even had the 
background for, it might be that the Superintendent could 
see that he would be floundering if he was put in there, 
and it might not be to his best interest to get in a class 
there where he would almost probably fail.

Q. To what extent, if any, would the indications from 
the scholastic aptitude test which had been taken enter into 
that consideration? That deals with the subject of mental



156

Dr. Leon R. Culpepper—for Defendants—Direct

maturity, as I understand? A. Yes sir. Well, there again, 
if you saw the mental maturity of a student and saw that 
it was not sufficient, that the student wouldn’t be able to 
keep up with the mental maturity of the other group that 
he was going in with, it might be there that he would have 
reason to want to talk with the student and counsel with 
him.

Q. On this subject of mental maturity, how is that graded, 
generally in terms of 12th grade maturity, 9th grade ma­
turity, 6th grade maturity and so forth, or what are the 
gauges by which mental maturity is expressed? A. A 
mental maturity is usually referred to as intelligent quo­
tient, IQ ; and that’s usually a number, a raw score.

Q. Well, in any event, if I understand then, there might 
be cases where the Superintendent thinks, considering the 
IQ of the applicant and the mental maturity in whatever 
form it may take, that he is better off where he is than to 
transfer, is that correct? A. Yes sir, that would be a case 
where he might counsel with him.

Q. Then, do you understand that, if he should so counsel 
the applicant and the student nevertheless wanted to make 
his transfer, he would be permitted to do so ? A. Yes sir, 
he would still allow him to transfer.

Q. Then, there follows paragraph 8 and subsequent 
paragraphs with various procedures for hearing before 
the Board, if desired, and the determination of the question 
by the Board, and I do not think it’s necessary to go into 
that in detail, but that is the substance of the content of 
paragraphs 9 and 10, which follows? A. Yes sir.

Q. Turn to paragraph 11, which deals with the admis­
sion of pupils in the adult vocational program and advise 
the Court how that will operate? A. Well, this is a little 
different. As it states there, admission to this program will



157

Dr. Leon R. Culpepper—for Defendants—Direct

be by vocational aptitude and classification test, pins a per­
sonal interview. And I might say that the reason for 
these tests is you’re .strictly finding out if the person here 
has the dexterity of the hands to do this particular job, 
so that he wouldn’t get his hands cut off in machinery or 
something. I t’s a type of vocational aptitude test; they’re 
given that and they’re presently giving those.

Q. I started to ask you, are tests of that character, apti­
tude test, applied in all vocational courses? A. Yes sir.

Q. If a person wants to take a course in electronics of 
some sort, would there be an aptitude test? A. Yes sir.

Q. To determine whether or not he should enter that 
class? A. Yes sir, there are.

Q. Are they applied entirely without distinction based on 
race? A. Oh yes sir.

Q. You’re familiar with the provision of the plan that 
in the field of adult education— A. Yes sir.

Q. —no person will, on account of race, be denied en­
trance to any course available in the adult education pro­
gram? A. That is already in existence.

Q. That’s in existence? A. And it’s also in the plan.
Q. Well, it’s in the plan? A. Yes sir.
Q. Actually, whether it’s in the system or not, I don’t 

know whether it would be entirely accurate for you to say 
but there is— A. I said in existence.

Q. In existence; now that’s correct, in existence now? 
A. Yes sir.

Q. That is in existence now?. A. Yes sir.
Q. Dr. Culpepper, I would like to direct your attention 

to paragraph 13 and particularly to the last sentence of that 
paragraph, on the subject of disciplinary difficulty: Do you 
know the present provisions of the printed rules dealing 
with high school student transfers on the subject of dis­
ciplinary difficulty? A. Yes sir.



158

Dr. Leon B. Culpepper—for Defendants—Direct

Q. What is it? A. It states that no student will be al­
lowed to transfer just to keep him—if he’s in disciplinary 
trouble at one school, he’ll not be allowed to transfer just 
to get out of trouble.

Q. Does this to some extent modify that complete prohibi­
tion? Will you read that? A. It says “For this reason 
alone” he’ll be denied transfer.

Q. Read what it says? A. “A person in disciplinary dif­
ficulty at one school may for that reason alone be denied 
transfer from that school to another.”

Q. I was trying to see if there was a distinction between 
the words “shall be denied” and “may be denied”? Do you 
understand that distinction? A. Neither of those words 
appear in this sentence.

Q. Well, the sentence speaks for itself? A. “May for 
that reason”—beg your pardon—“may for that reason 
alone; but it does not mean it has to be.

Q. Well, that’s what I wanted to show? A. Such as the 
State rules now implies.

Q. Well, that’s what I was trying to make clear? A. Oh, 
I beg your pardon.

Q. The present rule in the printed books says he “can’t”? 
A. That’s right, “cannot”, and this says it will not neces­
sarily.

Q. And this rule modifies that to say “may”? A. I ’m 
sorry; I misunderstood what you were asking me.

Q. Is that correct now? A. That is true, yes sir.
Q. We’re together on that? A. Yes sir.
Q. I don’t believe, Dr. Culpepper, it’s necessary to go 

over and review the further paragraph there. Now, there 
is one final document, which is attached to these papers, 
which is entitled “Administrative Regulations” : Those are 
regulations designed to aid the staff? A. Yes sir.



159

Dr. Leon R. Culpepper—for Defendants—Direct

Q. In the application of them, and, generally speaking, 
they are not of particular interest to the student himself, 
but govern or guide the staff in providing it? A. Yes sir.

Q. Now, you stated that it was anticipated that you would 
assist the Superintendent in the capacity of coordinator or 
director of this program. Do I gather from that, that you 
expect certain of his duties to be delegated to you? A. 
Yes sir.

Q. Do you understand that you, as the person to whom 
the duties were delegated, would generally handle the 
processing of these applications? A. I expect to, yes sir.

Q. I go back then to the student data form which—I 
don’t mean “student data form”—but I mean to the informa­
tion sheet, which is given to the student? A. Yes sir.

Q. And is there anything in there substantially different 
from that which we have examined in the opening paper, 
set forth in the procedures? That is, is there anything in 
the information given to the student who makes the applica­
tion substantially different from what we have covered? 
A. No sir.

Q. In the first document? A. No sir.
Q. Dr. Culpepper, in the administration of this program, 

is it your intention in good faith to give complete and full 
effect to any order of this Court in the administration of 
these procedural plans? A. Absolutely, yes sir.

Mr. Jones: The witness is with you.
The Court: I think we’ll rest now for 10 minutes.

R ec ess : 3:30 PM to 3:45 PM, A pril  13, 1963

Mr. Jones: I ’m through with the witness. 
The Court: All right, Mr. Hollowell.



160

Dr. Leon B. Culpepper-—for Defendants—Cross

Cross Examination by Mr. Hollowell:
Q. Doctor, what is your doctorate in, sir? A. Doctor 

of Education, with major in Music Education.
Q. As such have you had training in the administration 

of school plans as relates to general administration? A. I 
have a minor in school administration, if that answers your 
question.

Q. That’s on the doctorate level? A. No, that’s on the 
master’s level.

Q. On the master’s level? A. Yes.
Q. And your Master, I  presume, was in Music Education? 

A. Major.
Q. Your major was in— A. —Music Education.
Q. Your major was in Music Education? A. That’s true.
Q. Doctor, in your studies, did you have the occasion to 

study the beginning of a system of desegregation on a re­
verse stair-step plan? Do you understand what I have 
reference to? A. I understand what you’re saying.

Q. Did you have any study relating to that? A. The 
studies that I made mention to Mr. Jones were studying 
desegregation plans, but studying plans of implementing 
the plans themselves, just the paper work procedure that 
follows.

Q. I see? A. To be followed.
Q. As a matter of fact, you’ve never had any study 

at all in any of your studies which would indicate to you 
that it would be better procedure to start at the top of the 
school system in the inculcating of a new plan than to start 
somewhere near the bottom, have you? A. I ’ve had no 
studies whatsoever.

Q. Do you know what the reason for having the student 
to apply at the Superintendent’s office for the blank for



161

Dr. Leon B. Culpepper•—for Defendants—Cross

transfer is? A. That is the normal place where blanks are 
kept that are issued out to schools, the central office.

Q. Wouldn’t it be more convenient for them to be avail­
able at the principal’s office, a place where students were 
familiar with going? A. It might be more convenient. I 
can see some inherent weaknesses there.

Q. Well, I mean is there some attempt to restrict? A. 
No, just to keep up.

Q. Sir? A. No, just to keep up with the requests and 
make sure it doesn’t get lost, or that someone files it away 
and it doesn’t get to the proper hands.

Q. You’re not suggesting that the principals are incom­
petent? A. No.

Q. Referring to the plan, sir, that is the procedure; you 
have a copy of it with you, do you not? A. Yes, I do.

Q. May I ask you this, as we refer to paragraph 6, the 
latter portion of it, dealing with transfers: What is the 
basis for the school system furnishing transportation? A. 
Are you on page 2?

Q. On page 2. I have not actually addressed myself to 
the paragraph 6 specifically, except insofar as it says, 
“Within a 10 day period after the student’s transcript and 
Data Form have been received at the Board of Education, 
the Superintendent will determine whether the student is 
eligible on his record to be enrolled in the grade requested, 
whether the school to which transfer is requested is avail­
able to the student on the basis of its location and usable 
transportation facilities.”

Anri really, what I ’m asking here is whether or not the 
school furnishes any transportation facilities and, if so, 
what is the basis for it? A. The Board of Education fur­
nishes transportation, some bus facilities.

Q. What is the criteria? A. I don’t believe I ’m qualified 
to answer.



162

Dr. Leon B. Culpepper—for Defendants—Cross

Q. Well, you are the administrator of this plan, aren’t 
you? A. But I ’m not the administrator of the bus system.

Q. Or the coordinator of the plan? A. Of the plan, yes, 
but I ’m not the bus superintendent.

Q. Well, wouldn’t you submit that since transportation 
facilities or usable transportation facilities are one of 
the provisions which form a basis of determining whether 
one is to be transferred, that it would be important to know 
something about the transportation system furnished by 
the Board of Education? A. I would consult with the 
Superintendent of Transportation, I ’m sure, quite fre­
quently.

Q. But you don’t know as of now what is the basis 
for a student receiving transportation by the Board? A. 
There are regulations as to how far he lives out and how 
far away from a city bus line and all, but I do not know 
exactly the answer to the question.

Mr. Jones: May I state that Mr. Gtholson will at­
tempt to supply that information when he takes the 
stand, Tour Honor. That may help counsel.

The Court: All right.

By Mr. Hollow ell:

Q. Do I understand, Doctor, that as to the Student Data 
form, that as a matter of course— A. Next to the last 
sheet.

Q. I ’m not sure that my copy is accurate; let me see just 
a moment. The copy which is attached to this one just 
doesn’t have a caption up there.

Mr. Jones: It’s identified at the bottom.
The Witness: I believe it’s at the bottom.



163

Dr. Leon E. Culpepper■—for Defendants—Cross 

By Mr. Hollow ell:
Q. Oh yes, you have it down at the bottom over here, all 

right. Now, as to that Student Data form, these tests 
that are referred to under scholastic aptitude and under 
achievement have already been given in the 8th and 10th 
grades and in the other grades as shown on that sheet? A. 
That is true.

Q. These are given as a matter of course? A. As a mat­
ter of course in every high school.

Q. All of the high schools of the City? A. That’s true.
Q. And so, this information would be regularly available? 

A. That’s true.
Q. Without the giving of any additional tests? A. That’s 

right. These tests are given by the High School Guidance 
Council, the same test to all tests.

Q. Now, I believe, in answer to a question which was 
propounded to you by Mr. Jones, you said that if a person 
sought a transfer and say that person’s aptitude was not 
quite what it ought to be, say he just passes; and if he 
sought to transfer to a school where the median average 
was higher than his average, or even the average of the 
school from which he was seeking transfer, that the Superin­
tendent’s recommendation would not necessarily be bind­
ing upon the student? A. That is true.

Q. And that the Superintendent could or would permit 
the transfer, all other things being equal?, A. That is true.

Q. Now, which is it, he could or he would? The reason 
I ask that, if I might by way of clarification, Doctor, is I 
got the impression from you that the Superintendent would 
automatically go ahead and permit this person to transfer, 
presuming that he had met the required grade, passing 
grade— A. That’s true.



164

Dr. Leon R. Culpepper-—for Defendants—Cross

Q. —and other things being equal, that even in a situation 
where the median in the school to which he desired to go 
was somewhat higher than that where he had been going, 
that the Superintendent would permit that transfer! Do 
you understand! A. I understand your question, yes. He 
would probably counsel with him and tell him that “it’s 
going to be rough on you and you might not make it here 
and it probably would be a good thing for you not to try in 
this particular class or this particular school.” But if the 
student wants to, he would still approve it.

Q. He would still approve it! A. Yes sir.
Q. And this would be—suppose this was a school, a high 

school which was located in say Southwest Macon, and this 
was a student that wanted to transfer from Appling High 
School to the high school over there, and because of the 
general hostile attitude, we’ll say, the Superintendent 
thought that this person would not be able to quite get along 
over there, but scholastically the student was capable, would 
there be a requirement, as you understand the plan and 
as the coordinator, that this person would be transferred or 
not? A. He would be probably disqualified because of the 
second reason, the availability. It would be much more 
available to him to go to the school, Lanier, and not have 
to go another four miles out in South Macon.

Q. Well, we did not say where he lived? A. You said 
he was in Appling.

Q. We just said he went to Appling? A. Well, students 
only are at Appling that live on that side of the river.

Q. Is it your understanding, Doctor, since we’re on that 
point—well, let me strike that and ask you this— Do you 
know where the Pleasant Hill area is? A. Generally.

Q. Is that on this side, that is the west side of the river? 
A. Yes.



165

Dr. Leon R. Culpepper-—for Defendants—Cross

Q. Or is it on the other side? A. I take that back. I 
made an incorrect statement. They do draw from over on 
this side of the river.

Q. All right, they draw from this side of the river? A. 
Yes.

Q. How many high schools are there within a mile radius 
of Pleasant Hill? A. How many high schools?

Q. Yes? A. Oh, to my knowledge, only two.
Q. What are they? A. Well, four, counting the junior 

highs, Lanier Junior and Senior and Miller Junior and 
Senior.

Q. I ’m sorry? A. Miller Junior and Senior and Lanier 
Junior and Senior.

Q. And Dudley Hughes? A. Dudley Hughes, I think it 
would be out of the area myself but it might be. Possibly 
I don’t know the limits of Pleasant Hill.

Q. Would it be more than a mile? A. The limits of 
Pleasant Hill.

Q. Excuse me, would that be more than a mile? A. I 
think so.

Q. How much more? A. Pleasant Hill, as I understand 
it, does not go beyond Vineville Avenue.

Q. Does not go beyond Vineville west, right? A. True; 
that’s what I think.

Q. And does not go beyond, say the Alpine Lodge, gen­
erally north? A. That’s true.

Q. And would be bound generally on the east by River­
side? A. That would be my understanding.

Q. And on the south by the downtown area? A. The 
downtown area.

Q. Now, there are how many high schools in that area? 
A. There are none in that specific area.

Q. Now, there are at least three high schools that are 
within a mile of that area, is that not correct? A. I don’t 
believe it’s true.



166

Dr. Leon B. Culpepper-—for Defendants—Cross

Q. What would you suggest the nearest high school to it! 
A. Lanier.

Q. From the standpoint of distance would be! A. Lanier 
Junior and Senior.

Q. And that would be about how far from Vineville! 
A. At the closest area it would probably be not more than
2,000 yards.

Q. 2,000 yards; so, that would be just slightly, just 
slightly more than a mile! A. That’s right.

Q. Approximately a mile! A. Approximately a mile.
Q. And Miller is approximately ? A. Two blocks farther.
Q. Approximately a mile! A. (No answer) . . .
Q. And Dudley Hughes is approximately—well, it’s actu­

ally right at the edge of the area, isn’t it! A. My under­
standing of it, it is not but I won’t say that it’s not.

Q. Well, I mean isn’t Dudley Hughes right up here on 
Orange Street! A. Yes, it’s on Forsyth and Orange.

Q. All right, Forsyth and Orange, and doesn’t Forsyth 
run right smack through the Vineville area! A. Yes, on 
out.

Mr. Jones: Your Honor please, I thought his 
question was directed toward the Pleasant Hill area, 
which, of course, is not the Vineville area as such; 
and I think the witness is comparing what he under­
stands the Pleasant Hill area to be with the distances 
to these schools.

By Mr. Hollowell:
Q. Well, this is what we’re talking about. Let’s take 

Pursley Avenue or Second Avenue or Third Avenue, would 
it be any further from those streets generally to Dudley 
Hughes than it would from Lanier and Miller! A. Prob­
ably closer.



167

Dr. Leon R. Culpepper-—for Defendants—Cross

Q. However, the students of Negro extraction who live in 
Pleasant Hill travel to Appling, don’t they? A. To my 
knowledge, they do; to the best of my knowledge.

Q. Now, how far would you suggest that Appling is 
from, say Second Avenue or Third Avenue? About 3% 
miles? A. At least.

Q. At least? A. Yes.
Q. And if a student who lived in the vicinity of Appling 

wanted to go to school at a vocational school, he would have 
to pass generally Dudley Hughes and then travel another 
mile and a half to get to Ballard, wouldn’t he? A. In the 
past that has been true. In the plan we will not, we will 
let 12th graders who want to transfer transfer.

Q. I see but if he wasn’t a 12th grader? A. He would 
still have to go there.

Q. He would still have to go, say—that’s nearly 5 miles, 
wouldn’t it be, from the vicinity of Appling to Ballard- 
Hudson, would be approximately 5 miles, wouldn’t you sug­
gest? A. More than 5 miles.

Q. More than 5 miles ? A. Yes.
Q. Now, let me ask you this, sir: There being but two 

Negro high schools in the City, those high schools are un­
duly crowded even as of now, are they not? A. They are 
crowded.

Q. Would you say that the 17—well, there aren’t 17, what 
are there—5 or 6 white high schools are equally as crowded? 
A. Not quite as much so,

Q. Yet, there is no provision in the plan for the reliev­
ing of the crowdiness that exists in Ballard and in Appling 
as of this time? A. Any 12th grader that wants to, that 
would be approximately 1,000 students that could transfer 
if they qualified.

Q. Then, this is outside of the 12th grade? A. I ’m talk­
ing about the 12th grader.



168

Dr. Leon R. Culpepper-—for Defendants—Cross

Q. 12th grade and 12th grade only? A. Yes.
Q. And is this one of the reasons why there is the effort 

at starting in the 12tli grade? A. I did not make the plan. 
I could not give you the reasons why the Board members 
that were instrumental in developing this plan, what their 
reasoning was.

Q. Well, let’s look at the grade school, s ir: Is it not true 
that even most of the grade schools in the Negro areas are 
crowded? A. Some of them are.

Q. Most of them are, isn’t that true? A. No, I don’t think 
so. I know of 3 or 4—

Q. Beg pardon? A. I know 3 or 4 or 5 and there are 14 
of them, so I don’t believe 5 is a majority.

Q. You know of 3 or 4 or 5 which are overcrowded? A. 
Right.

Q. Only that many? A. That’s the only ones that I’m 
sure of.

Q. Now, what about in the white schools, what would be 
your suggestion as to the percentage of over-crowdiness 
there? A. Approximately—percentage you’re asking for?

Q. Yes? A. Well, it would be approximately 50 per cent 
less that are overcrowded; but there are still about 3 or 4 
or 5 and there are almost twice as many white schools as 
there are Negro, elementary schools.

Q. Even though in ’62-63 there were some 19,682 white 
students and some 11,442 Negro students, there were some 
34 white schools, as against some 17 Negro schools, is that 
correct, to the best of your knowledge? A. You’re speak­
ing of elementary and white ?

Q. Yes, elementary and high schools? A. Elementary 
and high schools; yes, that’s true.

Q. And in this plan there is nothing that is designed to 
alleviate that condition, is there, as you understand it, 
from the standpoint of your position in coordinating it? 
A. I would like to have the question again, please.



169

Dr. Leon B. Culpepper—for Defendants—Cross

Q. I say, from your position as the coordinator of the 
Plan, you have found nothing therein which was designed 
to alleviate this disparity in the availability of additional 
space to relieve overcrowdiness in the Negro schools? A. 
There’s nothing in this plan that will change the percentage 
of Negro and white students in the Bibb County schools, 
no.

Q. Now, in connection with one of the questions asked 
of you by Mr. Jones, there were three criteria set up rela­
tive to the matter of transfer, would you— A. That’s true.

Q. —would you want to repeat them? A. Eligibility, 
availability—

Q. And when you say “eligibility”, what does that mean 
here? A. That means that the student has, if he’s in the 
8th grade and completes all of his work, he’s eligible to go 
to the 9th grade.

Q. All right, that means that he has made passing marks? 
A. Eight, he has passed his work; true.

Q. The next is? A. Availability—excuse me—I thought 
you were going to tell me?

Q. No. Availability of school space in the school to which 
he wants to go or what? A. No. That was where we were 
talking about the close proximity to the school, availability 
of transportation; either a school bus went by there or city 
busses went by there to take this student to the school that 
he’s asked for. That’s what we mean by that.

Q. Availability of transportation then, is what you have 
reference to ? A. That’s the main part of availability, true.

Q. Suppose he had a car? A. It would be available then. 
That would not be a detriment or a hindrance to his ac­
ceptability.

Q. And what was No. 3? A. Capacity of the school.
Q. This is capacity in the school to which he wants to go? 

A. That’s right.



170

Dr. Leon B. Culpepper—for Defendants—Redirect

Q. Now, does this relate only to transfers under the 
Plan or does this relate to transfers generally? A. Does 
what relate to it?

Q. These criteria? A. These criteria relate to all trans­
fers.

Q. To all transfers? A. True.
Q. I notice in paragraph 9 on page 3, there is no provi­

sion for a written notice, although there is a provision in 
the paragraph immediately above, that the request be made 
in writing: Was this an oversight, or do you know? A. It 
was strictly an oversight.

The Court: Which paragraph is that?
Mr. Hollowell: This is paragraph 9. It merely says 

that 10 days notice will be given. It does not say that 
10 days written notice will be given, although there 
the onus of making the request in writing is upon the 
individual seeking to get a hearing.

The Witness: That was an omission left out by 
the secretary who typed it up.

Mr. Hollowed: May I submit, Mr. Jones, that for 
the purpose of the record, we could instanter insert 
the words “written notice” there?

Mr. Jones: Absolutely, if you wish.

Redirect Examination by Mr. Jones:
Q. Could you tell us, Dr. Culpepper, when these procedure 

sheets were made up? A. Last night about 10 o’clock.
Q. Have you been working on them for some time? A. 

I have been working on them, I guess, for a year.
Q. At the time of the filing of this plan of integration, was 

there in existence at that time a formulated detail of pro­
cedures at all comparable to what we are here dealing with? 
A. Yes sir.



171

Dr. Leon R. Culpepper—for Defendants—Recross

Q. Where is it! A. I have some in my files over here. 
They were just revised; these are the same ones, the same 
things, except they have been revised.

Q. When you say that they were “formulated”, you mean 
you had prepared some suggested procedures? A. Yes 
sir, that’s right.

Q. Had they been gone over and approved and accepted 
by the Board? A. They had been gone over and revised 
3 or 4 times by the Superintendent and the committee of 
the Board had seen some of them.

Q. Are these in the same form that you have in your files 
now? A. Basically, they are the same. Some things have 
been added, some things have been taken out.

Q. Well, are they the same then? A. No sir, they are 
not the same.

Q. Well, that’s what I mean; you have added some things 
and you have taken out some, revised some things and you 
have rewritten some things? A. Yes sir.

Q. And you say those were put in final shape yesterday? 
A. Yes sir.

Recross Examination by Mr. Hollowell:
Q. You said you had been working on this plan, admin­

istrative plan, for about a year; is that correct? A. True.
Q. At whose direction? A. At the Superintendent’s di­

rection.
Mr. Hollowell: All right, no further questions.
Mr. Jones: Your Honor please, we would like to 

have the reporter identify this collection of papers, 
including all of the attached documents which we’ve 
gone over

The Court: Yes sir.
(Identified Defendant’s Exhibit #13.)



172

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants-—Direct

M e . J u liu s  L. Gholson witness called in behalf of De­
fendants, having previously testified on adverse examina­
tion and first duly sworn, testified

Direct Examination by Mr. Jones:
Q. Mr. Gholson, you are the Superintendent of the Bibb 

County Board of Education, the Bibb County School Sys­
tem, I mean? A. That’s right.

Q. How long have you held that position? A. This is the 
5 th year.

Q. Prior to that time, well, let’s get that, let’s fix that 
by the calendar: When did you first occupy that position, 
in what year ? A. At the beginning of the ’59-60 school year.

Q. That was during the year 1959, but at the beginning 
of the ’59 or prior to the beginning of the ’59-60 school 
year? A. Yes sir.

Q. Whom did you succeed as Superintendent? A. Dr. 
Mark Smith.

Q. Do you know how long he had been Superintendent of 
the schools in this County? A. Approximately 20 years, I 
believe.

Q. Did you have a position with Dr. Smith prior to the 
time that you succeeded him as Superintendent? A. I did.

Q. What was that position? A. I was Assistant Super­
intendent.

Q. What was the state of Dr. Smith’s health in the last 
several months of his life? A. He had bad health. Pie was 
ill.

Q. And finally gave up the position of Superintendent 
and you took his place? A. Yes.

Q. Now, when did you go in as Assistant Superinten­
dent? A. At the beginning of the ’58-59 school year.



173

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

Q. So that, your relationship with the office of Super­
intendent, first as Assistant and then as Superintendent, 
actually started at the beginning of the 1958-59 school year, 
is that correct? A. That’s correct.

Q. Prior to that time had you had any position in the 
general office of the Board or in the Superintendent’s office? 
A. No sir, I had been principal.

Q. What school were you principal of? A. For one year, 
the year immediately preceding, the Superintendent’s As­
sistant Superintendent’s position, I was principal at 
McEvoy High School.

Q. And prior to that time what was your position? A. 
For two years prior to that I was principal at Alexander 
IY elementary school.

Q. And then, prior to that what was your connection? 
A. Prior to that, with the exception of four years away 
in the Army, I was a teacher at Lanier High School.

Q. Starting at what time? A. Starting in 1937.
Q. So that, from 1937 until the present time, as a teacher 

in Lanier High School and then in the successive positions 
which you have mentioned, with the exception of the time 
that you were absent in the Service, you have been con­
nected with the Bibb County School System? A. That is 
correct.

Q. Mr. Gholson, I think I referred to the fact that Dr. 
Culpepper would have delegated to him certain of your 
duties. That has not actually been done at the present time, 
has it? A. No, it hasn’t.

Q. In dealing with the subject of delegation of duties, 
does that mean that you are divesting yourself of that 
duty, or are you simply getting someone to help you, to 
assist you in connection with it? A. I ’m asking his assis­
tance for that particular thing. I still will be responsible 
for it.



174

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

Q. You still are the Superintendent of Schools? A. Yes 
sir.

Q. And everything that’s done in the name of the Super­
intendent in connection with this plan is actually your act 
and your responsibility? A. That is correct.

Q. Is this system small enough that one man could attend 
to all of the details that the Superintendent normally has 
to handle, or does he have to have assistance? A. I t ’s 
almost triple what it was when I started.

Q. Well, is it a one man job? A. No sir.
Q. Or is it a staff job? A. It requires a staff.
Q. In connection with the procedures which Dr. Cul­

pepper has been discussing, were you consulted or did you 
consult with him in the preparation of those? A. Yes, I 
did.

Q. I  asked him how long they had been in preparation; 
can you perhaps be a little bit more specific as to what 
steps have taken place in the formulation of these pro­
cedures? A. Well, at what place would you like for us to 
begin?

Q. Well, the State Court suit was filed following the re­
ceipt of a letter in February of 1963; had you started then 
to formulating procedures for the esecution and implemen­
tation of a plan of desegregation? A. We had been think­
ing about it for some time. You could see what was taking 
place everywhere and we had been thinking and working 
along that line.

Q. Very well; I ’m afraid I ’m not communicating myself 
to you and I think maybe the best thing to do is to just 
leave it where it is and see if maybe I can develop it later 
on. In any event, is it correct that this present set of rules 
of procedure were completed and put in their present final 
form as late as yesterday? A. Yes sir.



175

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

Q. A number of questions have been asked, some were 
asked of you when you were on the stand earlier today, 
and some of Dr. Culpepper, with reference to the numbers 
of schools and students in the Bibb County system, and to 
some extent their locations. I would like— You are fa­
miliar, of course, with the entire school system, so far as 
physical plant location is concerned, are you not? A. Yes 
sir.

Q. In the first place, what is the population of Bibb 
County approximately? A. Approximately 140,000.

Q. And does the Bibb County School System, does the 
Bibb County Board of Education operate the public school 
system throughout that entire area of the County? A. For 
the entire County.

Q. There is no other system for any portion of the 
County? A. No sir.

Q. What is the school population at the present time; 
that is, during the present 1963-64 year? A. Our total 
enrollment is around 37,000.

Q. That is not the same thing as daily average atten­
dance, of course? A. No sir.

Q. How much of that school population is made up of 
white children, or children attending white schools, and 
how much of children attending Negro schools? A. About 
63 per cent white and 37 per cent Negro.

Q. The ratio is a little bit higher for whites than 60-40, 
that is 63 per cent? A. Yes sir.

Q. Do you know how many that would be out of 37,000? 
A. Well, for last year it was 8,000 high school white, and—

Q. Well, you said for last year; now, are we switching 
for this year to last year, or are we sticking to this year? 
I ’ll take either one? A. Well, I just used the 37,000, which 
is the running enrollment. For official figures I would have



176

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

to take the average for last year. We do that on a yearly 
basis.

Q. Well, do you know the enrollment, the total enrollment 
for last year! A. Well, it would be the total of 8,000 and 
15,000, that would be 23,000 for the whites; and 4,000 and
9,000 would be approximately 13,000 for the Negro.

Q. That would make roughly 36,000? A. Correct.
Q. The 8,000 enrollment for whites is in the high schools ? 

A. Yes sir.
Q. And the 15,000 enrollment for Negroes is—I mean for 

whites is in the elementary schools? A. Yes sir.
Q. The elementary school, as you used the term, includes 

all 7 grades, from the 1st to the 7th? A. The 1st through 
the 7th.

Q. The 1st through the 7th? A. Yes sir.
Q. Actually, do you distinguish between the first 3 grades 

as primary and the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th as elementary? 
A. Only from the standpoint of curriculum. They are in 
the same building and part of the same school.

Q. But when you refer to elementary schools, you’re talk­
ing about all 7 of the grades? A. The old grammar schools, 
we used to call them.

The Court: What is the derivation of that word 
“elementary” in that connection?

The Witness: I t’s an intermediate number of 
grades between the primary or beginning and the 
high schools, from 4 through 7; they are called the 
“elementary grades”.

The Court: I wonder where they got that word 
“elementary” in that connection. Do you happen to 
know? I never have known?

The Witness: No sir.
The Court: Very well.



177

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct 

By Mr. Jones:
Q. You say that that distinction is made as a matter of 

curriculum only; is that what I understood you to say! A. 
Well, you would not have separate schools for them—

Q. I understand! A. —as you do in all other areas, 
yes sir.

Q. But your primary grades and your elementary grades 
are separate! A. Yes sir.

Q. The first 3 being primary? A. That’s correct.
Q. And the next 4 being elementary? A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, aside from the numerical difference, what other 

distinction or difference is there between the primary and 
the elementary? A. Well, you prepare them in the primary 
for the elementary. I t’s a classification or division as far 
as your curriculum and your grade divisions and so on are 
concerned.

Q. Something sort of like the idea of going to a kinder­
garten before you go to school, although, of course, on a 
different level? A. That’s correct, the first 3 grades are 
considered in that particular area of organization from 
the school standpoint.

Q. Well, from a curricula point of view then, what is
the difference, what do they move from and what do they 
move to, when they move from the primary to the elemen­
tary from a curriculum point of view? A. Well, their as­
signments are much more simply. You don’t have as much 
home work; you have more repeating; your methods are 
different because of the tender age of the children in that 
area.

Q. And the division between those two concepts then is 
actually a landmark in the child’s educational career? A. 
Yes sir.



178

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

Q. Just as much as going from the elementary school 
to high school? A. Yes sir.

Q. And from junior to senior high school? And so on. 
A. Yes.

Q. Is that substantially what we’re talking about? A. 
Yes sir.

Q. When you make the distinction? A. Yes sir.

The Court: Have they started French in the pri­
mary grades yet?

The Witness: No sir.

By Mr. Jones:

Q. But the figures which you are giving me now make 
no distinction between primary and elementary? A. No 
sir.

Q. But cover all seven grades ? A. Yes sir.
Q. Very well. How many school plans are there in the 

high school system or say Senior High School system for 
white people and what are they? A. That would be five.

Q. And name them, will you? A. Lanier, Miller, McEvoy, 
Willingham and Dudley Hughes.

Q. Now, Lanier is a boys high school, is it not? A. Yes 
sir.

Q. And girls do not attend that school? A. No sir.
Q. McEvoy is a girls’ high school? A. Yes sir.
Q. Is that correct? A. That’s correct.
Q. How about Willingham? A. Boys’ high school.
Q. I t’s a boys’high school? A. Yes sir.
Q. What is the fourth one? A. Miller.
Q. Miller High School, that is a girls’ high school? A. 

Yes sir.



179

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

Q. So that, there are two senior high schools for white 
boys and two senior high schools for white girls? A. Yes 
sir.

Q. That makes four? A. Yes sir.
Q. Now, what are the other high schools then for white 

children ? A. Dudley Hughes.
Q. Dudley Hughes, is that for both boys and girls? A. 

Yes sir.
Q. And that is the school which is located up on Forsyth 

and Orange streets? A. Yes sir.
Q. In the City of Macon? A. Yes sir, that’s old Lanier.
Q. And you count that as one school? A. Yes sir.
Q. Incidentally, how old is that school plant? A. I t’s 

in its 50th, this is its 50th year.
Q. If I told you I went there, you’d place my age up 

somewhere along that line, wouldn’t you? In any event, 
in addition to Dudley Hughes then, which is for both boys 
and girls, what other high school is there for whites? A. 
Now, those are the only senior high schools.

Q. Five? A. Yes sir.
Q. They are the five senior high schools? A. For whites.
Q. Now, how many separate junior high schools are there 

for whites? A. You would have Lanier Jr. High School, 
Miller Jr. High School, Willingham Jr. High School, and 
that’s it.

Q. Now, that’s 3 junior high schools? A. Yes sir.
Q. The Lanier being for boys? A. Yes sir.
Q. And Miller being for girls? A. Yes sir.
Q. And Willingham being for boys, is that correct? A. 

Yes sir.
Q. Now, doesn’t Dudley High have a junior department? 

A. No sir; it has a junior department; you have the 8th and 
9th grades but they are not separated—



180

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

Q. That’s what I ’m trying to get at. These other schools 
separate the 8th and 9th grades from the 10th, 11th and 
12th? A. Yes sir.

Q. Bnt at Dudley Hughes you have 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12? 
A. Yes sir.

Q. At Dudley Hughes? A. And you have it at McEvoy.
Q. And also at McEvoy? A. Yes sir.
Q. So that, if you added those and counted them as a 

separate school, because they had the junior grade classes, 
then you would have two more? A. Yes sir.

Q. To add to the category? A. Yes sir.
Q. But in your tabulation, you treat them as a single 

school, although they cover both the junior and the senior 
grades? A. The administration is single for them.

Q. Do these separate junior schools have separate princi­
pals from any senior schools? A. The separate ones do, 
yes sir.

Q. But you only have a single principal for the five 
grades at Dudley Hughes and similarly at McEvoy? A. 
That’s correct.

Q. Now then, you stated that the school, that the en­
rollment last year at those several high schools was 8,000, 
is that correct? A. Approximately 8,000. I ’ve rounded it 
out.

Q. Then, please give me the same information now with 
reference to the Negro high schools? A. All right, sir, 
you have the oldest, Ballard-Hudson Senior; then you have 
Ballard Hudson—

Q. Now, is that two schools? A. No, you have Ballard 
Hudson Jr., which is a separate division, in a separate 
building. The junior part covers the 8th grade. And we 
are building a new Ballard-Hudson Jr. High.



181

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

Q. Well, before we get to what you’re building, are you 
counting Ballard-Hudson as one school? A. Ballard-Hud- 
son is two schools, Ballard Hudson, Sr. and Ballard Hudson, 
Jr.

Q. So, there’s a Ballard Hudson, Sr. and a Ballard- 
Hudson, Jr. A. Yes sir.

Q. Okay, and now the other? A. Appling.
Q. Now, Appling has the same five grades but I believe 

that is in a single organizational school system? A. That’s 
just like McEvoy and Dudley Hughes.

Q. Just the same as McEvoy and Dudley Hughes? A. 
The same organization.

Q. So, that is the three schools for Negroes that you 
were referring to? A. Yes sir.

Q. And of those three, Appling has all of the same grades 
from 8 to 12 that the combined junior and senior high 
schools have, but they are under the same organizational 
control? A. Yes sir.

Q. And the enrollment at those schools is 4,000? A. 
That’s correct.

Q. Now, please then let’s—I think we can limit ourselves 
in this examination to the high schools because we’re deal­
ing specifically with that—what is under construction or 
in the planning stage, by way of additions to your high 
school facilities? A. Well, we have given a contract for 
the construction of a junior high school at Ballard-Hudson, 
a 40-room high school, with all of the related facilities.

Q. Is that in the general area of the existing Ballard- 
Hudson School? A. It would be maybe a mile, about a 
mile or mile and a half from there. We are also in the 
planning stages for a new junior high school for Peter Gr. 
Appling.

Q. For Appling? A. Yes sir.



182

Julius L. Gholson-—for Defendants—Direct

Q. You’re in the planning stages for that? A. Yes sir.
Q. Are the funds provided for that? A. Yes sir.
Q. And also for the one that you say you have under 

contract? A. Yes sir.
Q. Any more? A. Those are the two for the Negro 

schools involved. We have—
Q. Let’s stop there for just a moment. Then, you do have 

under construction or in the planning stage, with funds al­
ready provided, a junior high school for Ballard-Hudson, 
or an enlargement or an addition-— A. I t’s a complete 
junior high school and would be for the 8th and 9th grades.

Q. And what would happen to the junior high school al­
ready at Ballard-Hudson? A. It will become part of the 
senior high school.

Q. It will become available for the seniors? A. Yes sir.
Q. And did you refer to this as a 40-room? A. The 

junior high school will be. We had originally planned it for 
about 32 rooms but developments in that area have taken 
so rapidly that we’ve got more people there than we did 
when the bond issue was passed; so, we added rooms to the 
proposed building.

Q. Then, in terms of capacity, you see in the process 
of adding 40 rooms to Ballard-Hudson, making available 
to the Senior High School the rooms already used for the 
Junior High School there, and the new facility for the 8tli 
and 9th grades constituting the junior high school, is that 
right? A. That’s correct,

Q. And how much room or building capacity are you 
making available at Appling? A. Whatever the survey 
indicates is needed at the time that we get ready for the 
contract to be bid.

Q. Can you guess or estimate what that would be? A. 
Oh, I would say it certainly would be somewhere around 25 
to 30 class-rooms.



183

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

Q. And if that building is built, then you would have the 
same situation as at Ballard-Hudson; that is, the present 
junior grades at Appling would be available for the Senior 
High School? A. Yes sir.

Q. And these new rooms would be available for the new 
junior high? Is that correct? A. Yes sir.

Q. Now, we might transfer to the whites: What are you 
projecting there? A. Well, at McEvoy, which is in the 
same arrangement as Appling, we are planning for a new 
junior high school at McEvoy. I t’s in the planning stages. 
And they’re terribly overcrowded. Our white schools are 
just as overcrowded as the Negro schools are.

Q. In the high school area? A. Yes sir. McEvoy has 
doubled its capacity very similar to Ballard-Hudson.

Q. Where is McEvoy? A. McEvoy is out on William­
son Road; it’s in West Macon.

Q. And what you’re proposing to do there is to add a 
junior high school? A. That’s correct.

Q. To the existing McEvoy School? A. That’s correct.
Q. And that would, in turn, give you the same turn­

over of students; that is, your present facilities used by 
the juniors would become available to the seniors? A. 
Yes sir.

Q. And your new facilities for the juniors? A. Yes sir.
Q. All right, anything else? A. Well, a new junior high 

for Willingham. Willingham High School is very much like 
Ballard-Hudson. They don’t have a separate plant. They 
just have a wing, which houses their junior high. So, we 
have in the planning stages arrangements for a new junior 
high for Willingham. That’s a couple of years ago.

Q. And that would in turn follow the same general proce­
dure that we’re talking about? A. The same general pro­
cedure, yes sir.



184

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

Q. When that’s completed and available, it would make 
more room for the senior high school? A. That’s correct.

Q. In the space presently occupied by the juniors? A. 
Yes sir.

Q. Any further construction? A. Yes sir.
Q. Projected in the high schools? A. To take the tre­

mendous increase in enrollment and overcrowded condi­
tions from Lanier and Miller, we are planning two high 
schools on the Upper River Road. They will relieve both 
the Millers and both the Laniers.

Q. Are they in the planning stage or construction stage? 
A. They’re in the early construction stage, just as Ballard- 
Hudson Jr. is.

Q. What determines the location of the new school 
projects that you are working with? A. Survey of your 
school population and your overcrowded conditions in the 
schools that are there. They have to be approved by the 
State, before they will go along with the local system in 
approving any new schools.

Q. You mean the State has to itself— A. •—satisfy it­
self.

Q. —from a survey of the student population in the area? 
A. Yes sir.

Q. And do you also have to occasionally take into ac­
count the availability of land for that purpose? A. Yes 
sir, yes sir.

Q. That presents quite a problem sometimes, does it not? 
A. It has here in recent months.

Q. Mr. Gholson, in the formulation of this plan, have you 
been constantly in touch with everyone who’s had anything 
to do with it; that is, have they called on you for assist­
ance and have you given them assistance and aided them 
in the working out of this plan of desegregation? A. Yes 
sir.



185

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

Q. You are then familiar with its terms; you’ve studied 
it and understand what it attempts to accomplish, the plan 
of desegregation? A. Yes sir.

Q. A question was asked of Dr. Culpepper while he was 
on the stand—I won’t attempt to state it exactly but gen­
erally—to bring forth an explanation as to why the plan 
was designed to begin at the upper classes, rather than at 
the lower classes: Are you in position to supply an answer 
to that? A. Well, I know the general feeling of the people 
who were working and interested in it, and my own feeling.

Q. That’s what I had in mind? A. Yes sir.
Q. Can you state, from the point of view of why the de­

cision was made to start at the upper grades rather than 
the lower grades, can you state what influenced that de­
cision, what factors and considerations influenced it? A. 
Well, there were many considerations which were given. 
I recall, that the first one, we said that at that stage the 
students were more mature and that you could appeal to 
them and reason with them, and could probably get better 
cooperation because of their maturity.

No. 2: Their parents are not as emotionally concerned 
with them at the 11th and 12th senior high schools, as they 
would be if they were first entering school; and you would 
not have as many problems because of emotionalism and 
concern of parents. The participation in PTA proves that 
the parents in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd, in the lower grades, 
are far more anxious and concerned and emotional about 
their children than they are when they reach a certain age 
and can take over for themselves.

I believe we also mentioned that at that advanced age 
a certain amount of screening had been done. Many of the 
people who ordinarily would be administrative disciplinary 
problems and so forth have been eliminated by the time they



186

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

got to senior high; and yon would have less administrative 
as well as school problems involved there.

Q. That is to say, if I understand you, that a child enter­
ing the school for the first time has got his entire career 
before him and you have the good and the bad and the in­
different? A. That’s right.

Q. And you haven’t had the opportunity to screen them 
to the extent that that opportunity exists when they reach 
the upper grades? A. Well, they have to go under our 
school compulsory law until they are 16; so, whether or not 
they want to stay or whether they are problems, or whether 
they need to be working in something else, they still have 
to go, and quite often that creates many problems.

Q. Let’s talk about the parents for a moment: Give me 
the benefit of your thought as to what the effect upon the 
parents would be, if it should be decided to start this pro­
gram at the lower grades and the extent to which that would 
flow over into the children, or just what is your problem 
there? A. Well, there’s just naturally more concern for 
a child in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd grades, the lowmr grades; they 
need their parents’ supervision and protection, and emo­
tional feeling and so on, more than they would when they 
get up in senior high school. And in our community we’ve 
been talking about doing this starting in the upper high 
school and the community, more or less I think, is sort of 
geared to doing this thing in this way.

Q. Well, I was coming to that in just a moment. At the 
present time the community is geared to the upper level? 
A. True.

Q. To what extent is that due to the fact that that’s 
where the Board started and that’s the plan which has been 
sold to them? A. Yes sir.

Q. Is that part of the picture? A. I feel that it is.



187

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

Q. Well, even if we liad started—well, let’s state it this 
way: Suppose we should now in the middle of the stream, 
so to speak, shift from the end at which all of our planning 
has been directed and try to pick it up and start planning 
from the lower end, what problems would you encounter 
that you haven’t already met and dealt with? A. The ones 
I just mentioned. You would have far more parental prob­
lems, I feel certain. Then, you’d have a relative degree of 
increased problems, you’d have a relative degree of in­
creased problems because you’re spreading out on so many 
fronts, that I feel and I would like—well, the Board and I 
feel, I know it’s been the Board’s thought that during the 
period of transition—

Q. Well, it’s been a matter of discussion, hasn’t it? A. 
That during the transition period, we were hoping that 
we could have some temperance and moderation, so that 
we could have a smooth transition. And if you spread out 
on too many fronts, then you’ve got so many problems and 
obstacles there that it’s going to be almost impossible to 
handle them all from an administrative standpoint.

Q. Does the school have the same measure of control 
over the parents that it has over the students? A. No sir.

Q. In the school buildings during school hours? A. No 
sir, not at all.

Q. Does it have any control over the parents? A. No 
sir.

Q. Does it have any control over the students? A. Only 
while they’re at school.

Q. I ’m talking about while they’re at school? A. Yes sir,
Q. Does the fact that starting at the lower grades would 

inject into the problem dealings with parents, as well as 
the young students, in your opinion, create a greater prob­
lem than at the more advanced ages, where your dealings



188

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

are almost entirely confined to the students? A. I  would 
think a much greater problem.

Q. Now, I believe I caught your answer a few moments 
ago in dealing with this question, are we talking now about 
the problems at the beginning? To what extent would those 
problems tend to disappear as time passes, if the plan 
which we have proposed starts at the beginning and gradu­
ally approaches the parents and the children at the younger 
grades, rather than being suddenly thrust upon them? A. 
Well, I feel that if we have a successful period of transi­
tion, then the community will be in a position to accept it as 
we go along.

Q. What situation would exist if we should undertake at 
this time to start at both ends; that is, start with the 12th 
grade at one end and the 1st grade at the other end? Would 
that be a possible situation that you could cope with, in 
your opinion? A. I ’m afraid it would be very chaotic and 
create a great deal of additional problems.

Q. At the present time are you really concerned so much 
with educating the parents of the primary classes, if they 
think of this program in terms of something in the future 
that they’re really not concerned with at the moment; are 
your problems really so great with that element of your 
school population now? A. No sir.

Q. Would it become substantial and definite if suddenly 
you should announce or anybody should direct you, the 
Court should direct you or you should change your plan, 
to start at the area which would immediately touch those 
parents? A. I feel that it would be.

Q. Well, I ’m not sure that I asked you what it would 
be but I  think I did; you might state to me what you think 
it would be? A. I think it would be chaotic.



189

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

Q. That’s what I understood you to mean; I just wanted 
to make certain? A. Yes sir.

Q. What would be the possibility, in your opinion, of at 
one “fell swoop” applying the plan to all 12 grades in 
your system, both at the top and in the bottom and in the 
middle? Would that be a program that you could visualize 
as being able to be handled? A. No sir, I don’t feel that 
the community or the school system is so organized and 
prepared at this time, where it could accept that and do it 
in a proper, graceful manner.

Q. I want to ask you one or two questions about teachers; 
Mr. Atkinson has testified to that to some extent: Do you 
have close and almost constant association with the teachers 
in the school system? A. Yes sir, we keep close touch on the 
school personnel.

Q. Do you know the teachers in the system? A. Well, I 
know many of them. We have some 1300. I  could not know 
them all.

Q. Do you generally know the teachers in the system? 
A. I do generally know them.

Q. Do you know their attitudes and reactions, to the ex­
tent that you may have heard them expressed in conversa­
tion? A. I ’ve heard from many.

Q. In your school system how many, in terms of per­
centage or in general approximation, how many teachers 
are there who have really reached a point of experience and 
service and age, where they could retire, if they wanted to ; 
and yet, who are continuing in the system because of their 
desire to render some service ? Is that a substantial number 
or a small number? A. It would be a good number.

Q. Are they your experienced teachers in the school 
system? A. Yes sir.



190

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

Q. Do you have any reason to anticipate what would 
happen to those teachers of that particular category, if 
suddenly they should be confronted with a sweeping re­
quirement of desegregation in all of the grades of the 
school; what would be their reaction to it and what would 
they do? A. I feel that we would lose many of them.

Q. Would that be true also of the younger teachers who 
are starting in the system and who have not attained that 
age of experience? A. We probably would lose—well, I 
couldn’t say; I believe the older teachers would have more 
difficulty adjusting to a tremendous change than the younger 
ones would.

Q. Now, something also has been said about the processes 
which are involved in the assignment of teachers to their 
several schools. Will you please state to the Court as the 
Superintendent just what processes are, how you go about 
selecting and designating teachers for the different schools 
in the County? A. Well, when we have a vacancy at a par­
ticular school, the principal advises the teacher to send a 
letter to the office, to the Superintendent, advising the time 
and the reason for leaving. And when we receive that, we 
immediately check our files to see what qualified personnel 
might be available; and when we do that, we select the 
person that we feel would be best fitted and best certified 
and best capable of doing that particular job.

And, as a rule, we talk with the principal and, where we 
can, we ask the principal to interview this applicant and 
advise with us before we make any kind of recommendation 
to the Teachers and Salaries Committee for the official ap­
pointment of this teacher by the Board of Education.

Q. Then, when you finally complete that, who all is satis­
fied with the teachers who are teaching in a given school? 
Who has to be satisfied? A. Well, the principal is certainly



191

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

involved and wants to keep the same spirit. The parents 
have to be satisfied. Sometimes it may be in a community 
where a certain type of teacher is needed for the particular 
type of pupils in that community. And then the co-workers 
of the faculty, of the teachers themselves.

Q. Is there such a thing as a pool of teachers? A. No 
sir.

Q. That you can just dip down blind-folded and put some­
body out and send to a given school, or are there a number 
of personal factors and relationships involved in that desig­
nation? A. We try to do it on an individual basis, so that 
they would fit in properly. In fact, before a school can be 
accredited, the Superintendent is supposed to get the recom­
mendation of the principal of a school, saying that that 
teacher will meet the requirements for that particular 
school.

Q. If that were not true, Mr. Gholson, wouldn’t it be 
possible just as well to operate this thing on a computer 
system? A. Yes sir.

Q. On a machine pulling out cards ? A. Yes sir.
Q. And sending them to different places ? A. Yes sir.
Q. But is that the way the Bibb County school system 

is operated? A. No sir.
Q. I t’s on a personal interview and selection basis? A. 

Yes sir.
Q. As far as teachers are concerned? A. We do that 

with our Negro principals as well as the whites.
Q. Do I understand that when you are required to supply 

a teacher that you go through the same processes iden­
tically with the white principals and with the Negro princi­
pals ? A. That’s correct.

Mr. Jones: If Your Honor please, I don’t know— 
just one moment—•



192

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

Q. Can you give us the number of teachers in the system, 
Mr. Gholson? A. Yes sir, let’s see what that would be, 
about 800 white and 420 Negro.

Q. 800 white and 420 Negroes? A. Yes sir.
Q. What’s the total number? A. The total of that. Those 

are classroom teachers now. Now, they’re not your admin­
istrative personnel.

Q. This is teachers only? A. Yes sir.
Q. And that is supposed to be the accurate number of 

white and colored teachers in the system at the present 
time? A. Yes sir.

Q. And that means teaching, classroom work? A. Yes 
sir.

Q. That doesn’t include principals? A. No sir.
Q. Or does it? A. No sir.
Q. I want to talk to you a few minutes or ask you a 

question or two about this subject of transportation that 
Mr. Hollowell covered with Dr.—or started to cover—with 
Dr. Culpepper. Please state what is initially the basic 
factor in determining whether or not the Board attempts 
to provide public transportation free to the students at­
tending the schools here? What is it that determines that 
initially? A. Well, your main criteria is the State rule, 
which says that students living a mile and a half from a 
school in a rural area are furnished transportation.

Q. Well now, let’s stop with that: A mile and a half, do 
they have to be a mile and a half from the school? A. Yes 
sir.

Q. And they also have to be in a rural area? A. Yes sir.
Q. Now, does that preclude the furnishing of transporta­

tion to anyone who lives in what we will refer to as the 
urban area of Macon? A. Well, it doesn’t preclude it but 
that’s the general rule.



193

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

Q. Well, I thought you said that was the State rule? A. 
Well, it is ; you would not receive funds from the State fox-
students that did not conform. Then, if -

Q. Then, if you provide that transportation, you mean 
you’re not furnished with the funds by the State to do it? 
A. Yes sir.

Q. Now, that is a State rule to that extent? A. Yes sir. 
Q. And what is the rule—to what extent does the Bibb 

County Board undertake to supplement that or to deal with 
it beyond that? A. Well, there are some instances where 
they would transport pupils, if they lived in a dangerous 
area, across railroad tracks and there was only one road 
to go across, or something like that.

Q. You wouldn’t go across the road to get the Mayor’s 
son because he was the Mayor’s son? A. No sir.

Q. But you’d go across the road to get whoever was 
there because of special circumstances which indicated it,
is that correct? A. That’s correct.

Q. Now, if we start off then with the fact that, you do 
have some underlying rules governing the availability of 
school transportation, what other factors enter into the 
routing of those school busses? A. Well, children are fur­
nished transportation to the schools that they attend.

Q. That is, a student attending Lanier High School rides 
in a bus which is headed for Lanier; is that what you 
mean? A. That’s right.

Q. And the same thing of every other school m the
system? A. That’s correct. .
* Q. So that, the first thing that you have to consider is

where the bus is going? A. Yes sir.
Q. And that is to the high school? A  Yes sir. 
q Then, how do you work out a labyrinth of routes, and 

so forth, to cover all the territory that has to be served? 
Is that a changing proposition from time to time? A. Well,



194

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

it changes usually. I t’s modified every summer if there’s 
some reason for it. If the density of transported pupils 
changes during the year, then there would be some modi­
fication of the bus routes during the summer months.

Q. Then, is it correct to say that that’s controlled by the 
density of the school population going to that school! A. 
Yes sir.

Q. In the area which is being served! A. Generally so.
Q. How many busses are in operation now in the Bibb 

County school system! A. There are 58 that transport 
pupils each day.

Q. Now, do any busses deliver students to both Negro 
and white schools! A. No sir.

Q. How many of those busses deliver students to the 
Negro schools! A. 15 of them.

Q. And how many to the white schools! A. 15 from 58.
Q. Would be 43! A. 43.
Q. Are those routes chosen and selected to actually cover 

the territory which has to be covered to transport the stu­
dents entitled to transportation to these various areas! 
A. Yes sir, they follow the main routes. They do not go off 
on little side streets.

Q. I started to ask you, do you attempt to pick up chil­
dren at their front door! A. No sir.

Q. Or at a convenient place! A. At a convenient place. 
They can’t deviate and get to school if they leave the main 
route.

Q. Then, in considering the question of the availability 
of transportation to get to a public school, you would start 
off with the fact that there may not be a school bus that 
could possibly serve that student, is that correct! A. That 
could be.



195

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

Q. And it may be that you might have to re-route the 
busses in order to make that transportation available to 
them? A. That could be.

Q. And you may be able to do that in some cases? A. 
Yes sir.

Q. Or he may be able to provide private transportation, 
that is, his own transportation? A. That’s correct.

Q. And in that event, would that be considered adequate? 
A. Yes sir, it would.

Q. To meet the problem? A. Yes, it would.
Q. If I understand correctly, and we’re presenting these 

detail plans for the Court for the Court’s approval, on 
the subject of eligibility of a student to go to a particular 
school, that’s a cold, hard fact to be determined from that 
school’s grade records, is that correct? A. That’s right, 
that’s it.

Q. And there’s no if and and about it? A. The transcript 
speaks for itself.

Q. He either is or he isn’t? A. Yes sir.
Q. On the question of the capacity of the school to which 

an application is made, by and large, is it or not true that 
there would more than 50 per cent, likelihood that the school 
to which a Negro child sought to be transferred in the 12th 
grade would have more adequate capacity to receive that 
child than the school from which he was being transferred; 
is that a fair assumption? A. Probably so, yes sir. I 
couldn’t say that it would be in the exact ratio because many 
of our white schools are overcrowded also.

Q. I know they are, some of them are overcrowded; but 
as a factor to be determined, to what extent do you think 
it likely that lack of capacity would in the new school pre­
vent a transfer; would that be substantial or not substan­
tial, and possibly that depends on how many all of a sudden 
will want to transfer? A. Yes sir.



196

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Direct

Q. But suppose a few wanted to transfer, would you 
think that it would be possible to accommodate them in the 
new school! A. I would certainly think they would be 
given every consideration of the school that they’re request­
ing as compared with the school that they were coming from.

Q. And then, on the question of the student’s ability to 
get to that school, that would involve a number of considera­
tions that you would try to work out to the student’s best 
interest! A. Yes sir.

Q. And in the application of this plan would it be your 
intention to exercise the utmost good faith to permit any 
student desiring to transfer within the plan to accomplish 
that transfer, if it was at all possible to do it! A. "We’ll 
certainly try to administer the plan in good faith, yes sir.

Mr. Jones: I think that’s all, Your Honor.
The Court: Now, it’s just about our usual knock­

ing off time. How many more witnesses do you have, 
Mr. Jones, if any!

Mr. Jones: If any, there’s a question. I t’s pos­
sible, I had thought I might get Dr. Weaver here, 
partly because counsel has indicated a desire to in­
terrogate him and he would then have that oppor­
tunity in that event. I had thought possibly I might 
have Mr. Simmons here because he’s chairman of the 
Finance Committee.

On the other hand, I may not have either of them 
here unless counsel wishes one of them, in which 
event I ’ll arrange for it. This is the last witness that 
we have today and it may be the last witness that we 
would expect to put up in this proceeding.

The Court: Do you plan any rebuttal, Mr. Hol­
lowed! I ’m just wondering now what is the pleasure! 
Shall we try to finish it this afternoon or would you 
prefer or not, or do you have any preference!



197

Colloquy

Mr. Hollowell: May it please the Court, if this 
were to be the last witness and we were going on, I 
would then not consider putting on any rebuttal and 
would not consider that I had in any way circum­
scribed my case by so doing. And, if I had my 
“rathers”, I would prefer to finish it this evening, 
if it were possible. I do not know what the plan of 
the Court is but that would certainly be my think­
ing and my preference or my wishes.

The Court: Well, how long would you expect 
probably to cross-examine this witness? I know you 
couldn’t tell us exactly.

Mr. Hollowell: Well, he’s been up there for a good 
long time but I don’t look on the matters as being 
overwhelming. Perhaps not more than 30 minutes.

The Court: All right, I don’t want to rush either 
side. I think we’ll just suspend where we are and 
come back tomorrow morning at the usual time, 9 :30.

Hearing Recessed: 5:05 P. M., April 13, 1964 
Hearing Resumed: 9 :30 A. M., April 14, 1964

The Court: Are you gentlemen ready to proceed?
Mr. Jones: If Your Honor please, Dr. Weaver, 

who is the President of the Board of Education is 
in court at the moment. As Your Honor knows and I 
think everyone else, he does have responsibilities as 
a surgeon and a doctor, and I wanted to ask him a 
few questions; and I wondered if the Court and coun­
sel would be agreeable to my putting him on the 
stand at this time to do that.

The Court: Any objection to that, Mr. Hollowell?
Mr. Hollowell: We have no objection.
The Court: Very well.



198

Dr. II. G. Weaver—for Defendants—Direct

Dk. H. G. W eaves witness called in behalf of Defendants, 
first duly sworn, testified on

Direct Examination by Mr. Jones:
Q. Give your full name to the Court? A. My name is 

Hudnall Gentry Weaver.
Q. We’re not concerned in this case, Doctor, with your 

professional career? A. Yes sir.
Q. And I won’t ask you any further questions regarding 

that, but I am interested to know how long you have been a 
resident of the City of Macon? A. I was born here.

Q. And would you mind stating about how many years 
ago that was? A. Well, it’s a little over 66.

Q. You’re one of the senior citizens then, past the middle 
age group? A. No sir.

Q. Dr. Weaver, how long have you been connected with 
the Bibb County Board of Education? A. I ’ve been on 
there since December, 1939.

Q. Mathematically, that adds up to some— A. Little 
over 24 years, yes sir.

Q. Are you the President of the Board at this time? A. 
Yes sir.

Q. When did you become President? A. About 4 or 5 
years ago; I don’t know the exact date.

Q. Perhaps I could refresh your recollection. Did you 
succeed— A. Mr. Crump.

Q. —Mr. Crump as President? A. Yes sir.
Q. Anri you became President—when he retired, you 

became President? In his place? A. That’s right.
Q. Was that about the late fall of ’59, I mean ’60 and 

early part of ’61? A. Along in there; I don’t know the 
exact date.



199

Dr. II. G. Weaver—for Defendants—Direct

Q. Sometime about that time? A. Yes.
Q. Growing out of your long experience on the Board in 

connection with public education in the County, and your 
more recent tenure as President of the Board, what is your 
prime objective in the administration of the school affairs 
of this County; that is, what is it that primarily motivates 
you and dedicates you to serve on this Board? What are 
you trying to accomplish? A. Well, of course, what we’re 
trying to accomplish is to give the youth of this County the 
best education that we can give them. That’s my main 
desire.

Q. Does that apply to all of the eligible school children 
in the County? A. Yes sir.

Q. Or to any one class? A. No sir.
Q. As distinguished from another? A. No sir.
Q. During the four years that you have been President, 

has the Board considered the problems which are presented 
in connection with the plans or programs of desegregated 
or desegregating the school system? A. Yes sir, they have.

Q. I would ask you this question, Doctor: At the present 
time and during the time that you have been President of 
the Board, has there been any disposition on the part of 
the Board to fight some form of desegregation? A. No sir, 
it has not.

Q. What has been the direction of the thinking of the 
Board on that question as to how and when it might be 
brought about? A. Well, I tell you. We considered it and 
made quite a study of it. Of course, we all realize that de­
segregation was here and there was nothing on our part 
to try to enter into any court controversy on that subject. 
All avenues had been exhausted there and, of course, what 
we were trying to do or work for was some kind of plan 
that would be acceptable and workable, to where it would



200

Dr. II. G. Weaver—for Defendants—Direct

interfere with the education of the children. That’s been 
our desire.

Q. Has the Bibb County Board of Education ever been 
involved, prior to the filing of this particular suit, in any 
litigation, either resisting or involving desegregation? A. 
No sir, it has not.

Q. Do you consider that the Board of Education is now 
a litigant on that question or possibly a supplicant to the 
Court to work something out? A. Well, we’re a supplicant 
to the Court. That’s the way I feel about it.

Q. What is the intention of the Board with reference 
to complying with any order which may be issued by this 
Court in connection with any plan that’s approved? A. 
Well, the Board will, of course, carry out the order of the 
Court. That’s my idea about it.

Q. Will they do that in good faith? A. Yes sir.
Q. To what extent will they devote efforts to accomplish­

ing proper transition for that program? A. Well, of 
course, it depends entirely on the order of the Court; and, 
of course, we’ll study that and we’ll try—we’ll comply with 
what the Court orders 100 per cent.

Q. Now, one final question: One of the matters which 
has been injected into this case in one way or another is 
the question of whether in any gradual plan the program 
should start at the top in the 12th grade or at the bottom 
in the primary grades: is there any one condition or situa­
tion which influences you primarily in your decision as a 
member of the Board to propose to start at the top prob­
ably superior to any other? A. Yes sir, I do for this 
particular reason, that the impact will be less in high schools 
than it will in the elementary schools. I feel this way about 
it, that mothers and all starting children to school at the 
early age, we have probably more trouble with them than



201

Dr. H. G. Weaver-—for Defendants—Cross

we do in the high schools. In fact, we do. And I believe 
that the best solution of this problem would be to start in 
the high schools.

Mr. Jones: The witness is with you, Mr. Hollowell.

Cross Examination by Mr. Ilollowell:
Q. Dr. Weaver, are you a medical doctor, sir? A. Yes 

sir.
Q. You indicated that your prime purpose—and I quote 

•—'“is to give the youth of this County the best education 
that we can give them”—is that correct? A. Yes sir.

Q. Would it seem reasonable to you that, inasmuch as we 
have a mixed society in this Country, that it would be of 
importance that people might be able to learn together and 
to associate together, in order that they might know them 
better and be able to work with them better? A. Well, I 
think the peace and tranquility in this program will be 
better than trying to have a mass integration, because you’re 
going to have trouble if you do it. Now, of course, our prime 
idea in this thing is to have peace and tranquility and try to 
give our children, all of the children of this County the best 
possible education.

Q. But you haven’t answered my question, Doctor? A. 
I answered it the best I could. I  don’t know what you mean.

Q. Well, what I asked you was, wouldn’t it seem reason­
able to you as a trained man, that where people are going 
to be living and working in a mixed society, that it would 
be well to have them trained together and learn together 
and to know each other better in making an effort toward 
this ultimate adult life which they will live in a mixed 
society? A. Of course, your idea may be good but I don’t 
agree with it, for this particular reason: I t’s going to cause



202

Dr. H. G. Weaver—for Defendants—Cross

a lot of turmoil and upset the whole school system. That’s 
my opinion.

Q. This is your opinion; now, with whom have you 
talked that told you that? A. Well, listen! I ’ve talked to 
everybody, I ’ve been talking about this 10 years. I couldn’t 
even name them.

Q. Could you name me somebody? A. Well, who have I 
talked to? We talked on the Board about it.

Q. All right, now have you talked with any other super­
intendents or Chairmen of boards who have had their 
schools desegregated? A. No, I haven’t talked to any of 
them. I haven’t seen them.

Q. Have you talked to any principals who have had 
their schools desegregated? A. No, I haven’t talked to 
any of them. In fact, I don’t know any of them.

Q. I  see. So then, all you can say is that this is your idea? 
A. That’s my opinion.

Q. This is your thinking? A. That’s right.
Q. Based only upon such experience as you have had 

but no experience with those who have had the experience of 
a desegregation process in their schools, is that correct? 
A. No, that’s right. The only thing I know is what I ’ve 
read in the press. I haven’t talked to any of them.

Q. Now, let me ask you this: Now, you say you’ve been 
working on this for 10 years; have you at any time or­
ganized any group to discuss these problems in the com­
munity? A. No, I haven’t organized any.

Q. Have you organized any groups or had any panels or 
discussion groups with the principals of the schools? A. 
No, I haven’t had any with them.

Q. With the teachers of the schools? A. No, I  haven’t 
had any with them.



203

Dr. H. G. Weaver—for Defendants—Cross

Q. With the students of the schools? A. No, I haven’t 
had any of that.

Q. Do you know that any have ever been done by any 
of the Board members or by the Superintendent of the 
schools? A. I don’t know. I don’t know what they’ve done.

Q. Well, you have no knowledge of any such? A. I 
don’t have any knowledge, that’s correct.

Q. Has it become a matter of discussion, either pro­
nounced or under the auspices I think would be better, of the 
Board or the Superintendent in any of the Parent-Teacher 
associations? A. Not that I know of.

Q. So then, this is just some subjective evaluation that 
you make, based upon what you have read in the papers? 
A. That’s right.

Q. There are no further questions that I have for the 
Doctor.

The Court: Very well.
Mr. Jones: That’s all. Dr. WTeaver, we’ll be glad 

to have you remain with us if you wish or you may 
be excused.

Mr. Gholson was on the stand and I ’ll ask him to 
resume the stand.

If Your Honor please, I had closed my direct ex­
amination yesterday but, as frequently happens, 
overnight I have 2 or 3 questions I ’d like to ask him, 
if I may take a moment more.

The Court: All right, sir.



204

Julius L. GJiolson■—for Defendants—Resumed—Direct

Me. J u liu s  L. G holsox previously sworn and previously 
testifying on adverse and direct examinations, now resumed 
stand for further

Direct Examination by Mr. Jones:
Q.. Mr. Gholson, in the complaint, which is filed in this 

case, the charge is made that separate financial budgets are 
prepared for the separate white and colored schools; is 
that a fact? A. No sir.

Q. How are those budgets prepared, not in detailed items, 
but generally insofar as items of expense or the school sys­
tem; how are they handled? A. My staff and I work very 
closely with the Chairman of the Finance Committee and 
the Finance Committee; and we determine what the needs 
of the system will be for the next year, and then we com­
pile our budget based on the total needs of the system; 
and it is in no way broken down into the needs of the 
white or the Negro schools or groups.

Q. Are you familiar with the statement in the plan which 
was filed in this case, that while the local Board has 
operated separate facilities for white and Negro students, 
that they have striven to make those facilities equal: Could 
you comment on that and advise the Court to what extent 
that effort has been made? A. As far as the physical 
needs of the entire system is concerned, we do the -same 
for all schools, regardless of whether they have white or 
Negro students. Once every six years, each of our schools 
gets a painting job inside and out from the maintenance 
department and complete renovation. And since 1949, I 
believe, during the period of three bond projects, we have 
built 40—we have built 21 new -schools or new additions



205

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Direct

for white students. During the same time we have built 
16 new schools or additions for Negro students.

The average age of your buildings for Negroes and 
whites really is more favorable toward the Negro stu­
dents. In our white high schools, the average age for your 
high schools is 21 years. For the Negro high schools, the 
average age is 10 years. Most of them are comparatively 
modern.

For our elementary schools, the average would be 31 
years. For our Negro elementary schools, it would be 18 
years. Our oldest schools are our white schools, such as 
Dudley Hughes 50 years old, Whittle 75 years old, Alex­
ander III, where my children attend, 57 years old, and right 
on down the line.

Q. Generally speaking, is it reasonable to assume that 
the more recently constructed school will be constructed 
along more modern and effective and efficient lines than 
those constructed 50 years ago? A. That is correct.

Q. Yesterday you, in answer to a question, stated that 
the School Board operated a total of 58 busses, I believe? 
A. Yes sir.

Q. And I believe you stated that 43 of those served white 
schools, that is schools for white children? A. Yes sir.

Q. And 15 schools for Negro children? A. Yes sir.
Q. That is not in the same proportion as the student 

enrollment in those separate schools: Is there an explana­
tion why there are more busses for white children than 
there are for colored children? A. Yes sir, we have more 
white children who live out in the suburban and rural areas 
and require or meet the conditions of transportation and 
require being transported. I mentioned the total of 8500 
students that are transported. 6700 of them are white and 
1700 of them are Negroes, and it’s dependent upon their



206

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

residence, the density of population in the residence and the 
distance from the schools. Most of our Negro students, 
those who come in from rural areas and those who’ve re­
mained in the City, live in what we call the urban center 
of our community, while the whites, many of them have 
moved out into these new sub-developments in the suburban 
and outlying areas.

Q. Generally speaking, is bus transportation—well, I 
believe I understood you to say that the State does not 
provide funds for bus transportation within the City limits? 
A. I did not say that as such. I said that the rule that 
we follow, which was laid down by the State, says that 
you have to live a mile and a half and it was primarily 
for rural students.

Q. Mile and a half? A. Mile and a half from the school 
that they attend.

Q. Primarily for rural students? A. Rural students.
Q. That was your correct statement, as I understand it? 

A. Yes sir.
Q. Then finally, I ’ll ask you this question: Does the 

number of busses provided for separate schools indicate 
in any way the denial of bus service to any one who under 
your rules is entitled to it? A. No sir.

Mr. Jones: That’s all, if Your Honor please.

Cross Examination by Mr. Hollowell:
Q. Suppose, Mr. Gholson that we sort of back into this. 

Talking about this transportation situation, do I understand 
that no one who lives within the corporate City limits is 
entitled to bus service, is that correct? A. No, there are 
some exceptions.



207

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

Q. What are the exceptions? A. Well, you see, Macon 
has grown rapidly over a period of years. There were some 
arrangements that were made for safety reasons and for 
other reasons, the fact that the school might not or the 
school site might not have been available where we trans­
ported some pupils.

Then too, Macon city limits have been extended; some 
2 or 3 years ago they moved the City limit lines out. Now, 
until that time, with a few exceptions that had justification, 
the City limits were used as the basis; but the Board of 
Education determined at that time that it would not make 
changes in our transportation because of the extension of 
the City limits.

So, when the City limits were extended, we did not deny 
those people who were a mile and a half away from the 
school and who had legitimate reasons for riding the busses, 
we did not deny them bus transportation to the schools 
solely for that reason because of the extension of the City 
limits.

So, we do have some people in the new City limits that 
do ride the bus and meet the State criteria for transporta­
tion.

Q. Well, they wouldn’t meet the State criteria if they 
were not in a rural area, would they? A. Well, that was 
considered a rural area at that time. The reason for that 
ruling of the City limits was the fact that the State has 
stated that it is not their intention to be competitive with 
private transportation in metropolitan areas. That’s the 
reason for that rural stipulation.

Q. Well, would five miles to go to school be considered 
by you as a reasonable distance for this transportation to 
be furnished to the students? A. It would depend on how 
it might affect the whole school program and the budget. 
If they lived within the City limits, it depends on the ar­
rangements. We would consider a case of that type.



208

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

Q. Well, don’t yon have many cases of that type as re­
lates to the students who live in Pleasant Hill and go to 
Appling? A. I don’t believe it would be 5 miles. I  have 
a child that goes 3 miles to school that doesn’t have trans­
portation.

Q. We’re not talking about your child? A. Well, we’re 
talking about—

Q. We’re talking about 5 miles for students who live in 
Pleasant Hill and who go to Appling? A. Yes.

Q. Excuse me—it has been suggested by Mr. Culpepper 
that it was probably even more than 5 miles? A. Under 
our rules a child that lives in Pleasant Hill would not be 
entitled to transportation to Appling.

Q. Or any other place in town? A. No, unless it was 
away out, unless the school was away out in a rural area.

Q. Well, wouldn’t you say Appling is away out? A. No, 
it’s within the City limits of Macon. I t’s not away out.

Q. Well, I suppose any place, if one lived say out on 
Vineville Road north or northwest and went to some school 
down in South Macon, he would have to go 5 miles, wouldn’t 
he, and still be within the City limits? A. He could.

Q. At the same time what do you judge the distance 
from, say Second Avenue to Appling to be? A. Oh, I 
would think it would be about 3 miles.

Q. About how far? A. About 3 miles.
Q. About 3 miles? A. Yes.
Q. And if Hr. Culpepper would say 5 or 6, we could 

settle maybe on 4 or 4% as being not bad? A. Well, that’s 
a matter of opinion and we’re neither expert witnesses for 
judging it. That’s a matter of opinion.

Q. Now, you made mention of the fact that finances were 
displayed or disposed of equally and then you mentioned 
the fact also, I believe, that the schools, Ballard-Hudson



209

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

and Appling, which have been built, were actually more 
modern than the schools, high schools to which most of the 
white students attend; I believe that was your statement, 
is that correct? A. I said that most of the new schools 
were modern and had modern facilities.

Q. And that 16 out of 21 schools—no, I take that back— 
that there were 21 schools white which have been built 
since— A. ’49.

Q. —and about 16 Negro schools, is that right? A. 
Schools or additions.

Q. Or additions? A. That’s right.
Q. You don’t know how many were additions and how 

many were schools? A. No, I don’t have that.
Q. Well, actually prior to ’49, you didn’t even have but 

one high school for Negroes which was operated by the 
City and County, isn’t that true? A. That’s true.

Q. And that was old Hudson High? A. Correct.
Q. And you only had some 8 or 9 elementary schools, 

Negro? A. (No answer) . . .
Q. And at Hudson High Negroes from all over the 

County, wherever they lived, went to that one school; isn’t 
that right? A. Well, I ’m not familiar with what it was at 
that time.

Q. Well, I mean you don’t know that there was any 
other high school operated by the City or County, other 
than that one, do you? A. I recall Hudson High but I do 
not have knowledge of what the Negroes’ facilities were at 
that time.

Q. I see; you just don’t know of any other? A. I  remem­
ber Hudson High School.

Q. And you’ve lived here how long? A. All of my life.
Q. And you never did hear of any Negroes at that time 

going to any white school? A. No, I believe they had a 
Ballard High School along with Hudson.



210

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

Q. Ballard was an AME church school, wras it not? A. 
It was operated by the Bibb system though at the time.

Q. I beg your pardon? A. It was operated by the Bibb 
system.

Q. When did it begin to be operated by the Bibb system? 
A. I do not know but I know that the Board of Education 
did assume administrative responsibility for it.

Q. At some time? A. Yes.
Q. You don’t know when that was, do you? A. No.
Q. Now, you speak about the same amount of monies be­

ing appropriated one school to another, have you ever had 
the occasion to visit Ballard and Appling and to review the 
science departments and then make a comparison with that 
af Lanier and Miller? A. Yes, I have.

Q. Would you say that equipment-wise they were com­
parable? A. I would say Ballard is comparable with 
Lanier and Miller equipment-wise and Appling would be 
better than Ballard, Lanier or Miller, equipment-wise.

Q. From the standpoint of supplies and equipment that 
is used in the science department, this would be your 
statement ? A. That is my statement,

Q. Do you have any figures which would relate to the 
amount of money which was actually expended for those 
schools in the science departments last year? A. We 
could get that for you. We know that the money is re­
lated by requisition from the principal, according to need.

Q. Well, you’re suggesting then or stating as a matter 
of fact that if the principal doesn’t requisition, then it 
wouldn’t be there? A. No, I  said that’s the basis for our 
ordinary supplying of instructional supplies. If we visit 
and find that there is a deficiency, we would recommend 
that we put something in there.



211

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

Q. When is the last time that you have visited either of 
those schools and made any recommendation? A. At the 
beginning of this school year.

Q. You actually visited them yourself? A. Yes.
Q. And you have those figures and that information? 

A. We have all the information pertaining to their equip­
ment and their needs.

Q. Would you be willing to make it available prior to 
the time that this case has run its course? A. If you’ll 
stipulate what you want, we’ll get Mr. Newberry, our as­
sistant, to do that.

Q. All right, sir. Now, going again to the matter of dis­
tances and looking at the Plaintiffs in these schools or 
in this case rather, are you aware of the fact that Billy 
Joe Lewis, who is one of the Plaintiffs and who goes to 
Ballard High, has to go some eight blocks further, passing 
Lanier, in order to get to Ballard High? A. No, I ’m not 
familiar with that.

Q. Have you had the occasion to look at the records of 
the Plaintiffs at any time? A. I think, I believe my staff 
has considered some of the residences of the Plaintiffs in 
regard to schools. Some of them do pass white schools.

Q. Do you have in court with you a resume of the in­
formation relating to the Plaintiffs, where they live and 
the schools to which they attend? A. No, I do not have 
that.

Q. You do not have that? A. No.
Q. Are you aware of the fact that Henry Holston or not 

Henry but Carol Holston, who is one of the Plaintiffs here, 
has to pass A. L. Miller High School; that A. L. Miller 
High School is about 10 blocks closer than Ballard High 
School, which she attends? . . . .  Sir? A. I ’m not aware 
of that, no.



212

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

Q. Well, in the process of making yonr evaluations to 
make any determinations concerning these Plaintiffs, did 
you consider these facts at all? A. I told you that it’s 
possible that many of them do pass white schools. We have 
some white students that pass schools going to the schools 
that they attend, because they’ve been assigned there for 
administrative control and because of the capacities of the 
schools.

Q. In other words, you don’t deny the fact that in most 
of the cases of these Plaintiffs, they live closer to the white 
elementary or high school than they do to the Negro school 
that they now attend? A. I neither confirm nor deny it. I 
do not have the information.

Q. You have the information at your disposal, do you not? 
A. I read a very interesting article in the Macon News that 
explained that, that gave the facts about it.

Q. Now, would you answer my question? I say you have 
the facts at your disposal? A. Well, I told you that some 
of my staff members did consider, and I told you that it 
was a fact that some of these students did pass schools 
going to the ones they attended. I have stated that.

Q. You still have not answered my question, though, Mr. 
Gholson. My question is, I say you have these facts at your 
disposal? A. Well, they’re not at my disposal, no.

Q. I mean in your office? A. Well, I don’t know if 
they’re still there or not. I can get the issue of the Macon 
News though and give it to you.

Q. Well, I ’m not asking about the Macon News; I ’m ask­
ing about what you have; you’re the Superintendent, sir? 
A. Well, my staff did a study of it. Whether or not the 
facts are still there, I do not know.

Q. Would you make that information available to us if 
it is still in your office? A. If Mr. Jones has it, we will be 
glad for you to have it.



213

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

Q. Did you at any time ever give it to Mr. Jones? A. 
No.

Q. Did you ever direct your staff to destroy the informa­
tion? A. No.

Mr. Jones: If Your Honor please, is it possible 
that a stipulation, which we are very happy to make, 
would take care of this situation and cover what 
counsel wants? I ’ll be glad to tender a stipulation 
if he thinks it might.

Mr. Hollowell: All right, it might save some time. 
If it would save time, Your Honor, I would be happy 
to consider it with Mr. Jones.

The Court: Very well; I ’m in favor of stipulations.
Mr. Hollowell: I have the facts, Mr. Jones, and 

perhaps you have, and we could get together and say 
before we leave here?

Mr. Jones: No, I was not thinking of that. I was 
thinking of a stipulation which I am offering to 
make now.

Mr. Hollowell: Oh, all right.
Mr. Jones: And that would be to this effect: We 

have, of course, admitted in our pleadings that up 
until the present time in the public school system of 
Bibb County, we are operating a separate system of 
schools for white and colored children.

Our pleadings also disclose that, while residential 
areas and proximity is a factor in the assignment 
of children to schools, and while there are no zones, 
still, there are recognized geographical areas for 
white children and recognized geographical areas 
for colored children, which are different. They do not 
coincide with each other.

I will stipulate that there are some cases, prob­
ably many cases, where at the present time Negro



214

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

children attending a school for Negro children lives 
in much closer proximity to a white school than he 
does to the Negro school which he’s attending; and 
that in probably many cases, certainly in some cases, 
they actually pass by a white school to get to the 
Negro school.

Now, if it’s necessary and counsel thinks it’s neces­
sary to give that information and apply it with re­
spect to each of these numerous Plaintiffs which are 
in this case, that would require some time, require 
some digging and some comparisons. Of course, 
we’ll be glad to do that if it is requested. But I 
thought possibly my stipulation might serve this 
purpose. And I do make that offer as a stipulation.

The Court: Very well.
Mr. Hollowell: Before speaking as to whether 

we would accept the stipulation, Your Honor, the 
last point is really the point in question. If that were 
expanded so as to say, in substance, that there was 
an admission to the fact that even some of these 
Plaintiffs might well be in that same category, to 
the extent that the Court might consider it, then I 
would be favorable to it.

Mr. Jones: I certainly will add that, that some 
of these very Plaintiffs in this case are very likely 
in that category.

Mr. Hollowell: And the reason we say that is, 
Your Honor, we take the position that the Plaintiffs 
are entitled to relief and, if there was nothing in 
evidence relating to these facts as respects the Plain­
tiffs, then it might be consideration which the Court 
might address itself to in saying “Wed, we have 
nothing in the record relative to these Plaintiffs as 
such.”



215

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

Now, if this is sufficiently clear for the Court to 
understand that the Plaintiffs might come within 
that category, so as to make it unnecessary for me 
to put someone on, in order to testify along that line, 
as to each of the Plaintiffs, then I would say we would 
accept the stipulation.

The Court: Well, it’s very dear to me: what has 
been offered as a stipulation is that some of these 
very Plaintiffs might well come within that category. 
That is the language of the stipulation, if that is suffi­
cient for you?

Mr. Hollowell: Well, when we say “might well 
come within”.

The Court: He just adopted your language there.
Mr. Hollowell: I think, Your Honor, that we would 

make that stipulation but I would not want to be 
barred from having it extended by my showing, say 
to Mr. Jones, the compilation of facts which I have, 
which might make it a bit more specific; and maybe 
at the break Mr. Jones and I can do that, because I 
don’t want the record to fail to show that this is 
the fact, rather than “might well have been”, “might 
well be the fact”.

The Court: I see you point. Well, suppose we say 
then that the stipulation is accepted as far as it goes ?

Mr. Hollowell: Yes sir.
The Court: And you have the right to supple­

ment it by proof that some of these Plaintiffs actually 
do come within that category, if you so desire.

Mr. Hollowell: All right, sir. But I won’t seek to 
get that in insofar as this witness is concerned but 
we’ll move on.

The Court: Very well.



216

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants-—Resumed—Cross 

By Mr. Hollow ell:

Q. Now, Mr. Gholson, in your testimony on yesterday 
you indicated that you felt it was better to start in the 
12th grade because there was more maturity there and 
because the parents were not so emotional, and said there 
had been some screening, and because they should spread 
on too many fronts: The primary purpose, as I understand 
it, of the education system is to give the students the 
best education possible, is that not true? A. That’s cor­
rect.

Q. Students are more impressionable at an early age, 
are they not? A. Probably so.

Q. Then, wouldn’t it stand to reason to you that, where 
students have not had the opportunity to develop their 
prejudices and where they are more used to being con­
trolled and are subject to control, that they might be more 
readily acceptable of something which is perhaps a little 
anomaly to the norm than older students? A. That’s one 
of the point of views.

Q. Isn’t it also true that your parent teachers’ associa­
tion is generally more active among elementary than among 
high school grades? A. Much more active in the lower 
grades.

Q. If this pertained all the way around, then there would 
be more likelihood of the possibility of there being an 
intelligent program of instruction and discussion among 
parents on that level, than there would be among those on 
the high school level; isn’t that true, because they meet 
more; they have more persons there? They don’t meet any 
more but they have more people. Isn’t that true? A. You 
might say so but I feel that the concern of the parent for 
the child at that age and the impact and adjustment and 
shock that would be experienced would enter into that.



217

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

Q. That very concern is the thing that might cause them 
to act with rationale and with intelligence and with toler­
ance and with understanding and with determination to 
see that things do go well, mightn’t it! A. It might do 
that and it might do just the opposite.

Q. Well, I mean you don’t impute to the Citizens of 
Macon an inherent attitude of intolerance, do you ? A. No, 
but I feel that well have less parental problem and trouble, 
beginning at the upper level than I do at the lower level. 
That’s my opinion.

Q. Shouldn’t your basic concern be as to the students? 
A. The students would certainly be involved as far as 
his parent’s anxiety and his parent’s conduct and his 
parent’s activities are concerned.

Q. You didn’t answer my question, sir. I say, shouldn’t 
your basic concern be registered in favor of that which 
directly affects the student in school? A. It is, it is; that’s 
why I feel that the upper part, that the upper grades would 
be the best.

Q. Now, I ’ll ask you the same question that I asked Dr. 
Weaver. I believe you indicated that there has been some 
discussion in committees and in the Board over the period 
of a number of years, is that correct? A. I’m not aware of 
the Board’s discussions over a 10 year period.

Q. Well, you’ve heard the— A. I know that they have 
had some discussions since I ’ve been there, during the time.

Q. And you’ve heard the testimony of Attorney Miller, 
saying that there was some committee away back, beginning 
in 1954. Now, do you know of any occasion when this Board 
has had any conference with the principals or the teachers 
relating to the process of desegregation? . . . Sir? A. I 
don’t know about the Board. I have mentioned that at 
principals’ meetings, the possibility of it, for the last 
several years.



218

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

Q. You have mentioned it? A. The possibility of it.
Q. The possibility? A. Yes.
Q. Would you want to characterize what your mention­

ing has run to? You mean you’ve only admitted in passing 
that there is a possibility that one day you may have de­
segregated schools? A. That’s right and that we had best 
be looking forward to what we needed to do to make the 
proper preparation, so that we can have a peaceful and 
calm and graceful transition when that time comes.

Q. All right, now how many times would you suggest 
that you have said that in a principals’ meeting? A. Oh 
perhaps in the last couple of years, it would date back about 
two years.

Q. Well, I mean how many meetings would you suggest 
that you have said that in, in the last two years? A. Sev­
eral. I would not be able to specify a definite number. I t ’s 
been mentioned on several occasions.

Q. You mean 2 or 3? A. 2 or 3 or more.
Q. It wouldn’t be 5 or 6, would it? A. I said I did not 

know a definite number.
Q. Well, I say it wouldn’t be as much as 5 or 6? A. I 

couldn’t tell you; I said I didn’t know.
Q. How often does the principals committee meet? A. 

Usually meets once a month.
Q. Once a month and you have 12 school months, don’t 

you, so it couldn’t be more than 9? A. Usually- have 9 
school months.

Q. I ’m sorry, 9 school months, yes. Do you recollect 
what the occasion was which provoked you to mention it 
at all? A. No, it was just in an administrative capacity-, 
where we were talking about our problems and what we 
needed to do.



219

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

Q. Now, you don’t have all of the principals meet to­
gether at the same time though, do you? A. We have 
separate meetings of the principals.

Q. You have separate meetings of the principals? A. 
Yes.

Q. You have 9 with each group of principals, 9 meetings? 
A. Usually.

Q. Now, at which group or which meetings were these 
that you made some reference to the matter of desegrega­
tion process, at the Negro meetings or at the white meet­
ings ? A. I have mentioned them at both.

Q. Over a period of time? A. More recently, the last 
two years.

Q. More recently, the last two years, all right. You feel 
that you have a competent staff of principals? A. I do.

Q. And that you have a competent staff of teachers? A. 
Ido.

Q. You feel that the people in Macon are rational people, 
do you not? A. I feel that they are fine citizens.

Q. Do you feel that they are rational people? A. I can’t 
testify to their—

Q. Generally? A. —I can’t testify to their rationale; 
it depends on what the circumstances are to test it.

Q. In general? A. Sure, in general, yes. The people 
of Macon will compare favorably with those anywhere.

Q. Do you think they are generally tolerant people? A. 
It depends on what the situation is.

Q. Well, I say generally, talking about the general cir­
cumstances? A. I would say that they’re the same type 
of people that you’d find all over the United States, that 
they’re good American citizens, if that’s what you mean?

Q. No, what I mean is, do you feel that the people of 
Macon are generally tolerant people? A. I cannot speak 
for the people of Macon.



220

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

Q. Well, you’ve been speaking for them? A. I hope, I 
hope that they would be and I feel that would try to be.

Q. You would feel, would you not, that the average 
person, adult and young person, in the City of Macon 
reads the paper, would you not? A. Many of them do.

Q. Would you not also feel that they would be generally 
aware of the fact that it is only in those places where people 
acted irrationally that there has been any major difficulty 
whatsoever at a time of desegregating of high schools 
and elementary schools? Wouldn’t you think that they 
would be aware of that? A. I couldn’t answer that ques­
tion.

Q. Are you aware of that? A. Yes.
Q. You are aware of it? A. What was your question 

again?

Mr. Hollowell: Would you read it please?
The Reporter: Would you not also feel that they 

would be generally aware of the fact that it is only 
in those places where people acted irrationally that 
there has been any major difficulty whatsoever at a 
time of desegregating of high schools and elementary 
schools, wouldn’t you think that they would be aware 
of that? Answer: I couldn’t answer that question. 
Question: Are you aware of that ?”

By Mr. Hollowell:

Q. The last question was, are you aware of that? A. No, 
that’s not correct. You said “no trouble whatsoever even 
in communities”—

Q. I said “no major trouble whatsoever”? A. It de­
pends on what major trouble is. Some communities have 
tried their best to have a good transition and they still 
have had some problems.



221

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

Q. Well, I mean you have problems, even without de­
segregation, don’t you? A. Well, I mean this kind of 
problem.

Q. You know that they desegregated the schools in 
Brunswick voluntarily, don’t you, the high schools? A. 
Yes.

Q. You know that the Atlanta schools have been desegre­
gated to some extent? A. I’ve kept up with it.

Q. Savannah has been desegregated to some extent al­
ready? A. Yes.

Q. You don’t know of any trouble they’ve had, do you? 
A. They’ve had some problems.

Q. Well—- A. They’ve had no major trouble.
Q. You’d have problems in any transition, wouldn’t you, 

even if you were just transferring students, without the 
matter of color coming in? You are subject to have some 
administrative problems, aren’t you? A. Yes.

Q. Change brings this about, to some extent? A. Yes.
Q. You’re not a psychologist? A. No.
Q. And I believe you have already testified that you have 

only talked with a few principals and Superintendents at 
some convention concerning the problems which are in­
herent in the desegregation process? A. Various profes­
sional meetings.

Q. At various professional meetings? A. Yes.
Q. But you have made no studies that you have compiled 

in your own office? A. No, I ’ve kept informed on what 
I ’ve read.

Q. And I believe you said you have read the U. S. World 
and News Report? A. And the newspapers and profes­
sional.

Q. And the newspapers. What professional studies have 
you made or what studies that have been made on a pro­
fessional basis have you read? A. Administrative Jour­
nal, the NEA Journal; that type.



222

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

Q. Do you remember anybody who wrote any article 
dealing with this problem in any of those? A. Not specific 
names.

Q. Do you remember the titles of any such articles? A. 
No.

Q. Do you remember when any of them were written? 
A. Just general knowledge.

Q. Just general knowledge? A. Right.
Q. So that, really your statement on yesterday, in an­

swer to the questions which were propounded by Mr. Jones, 
relating to what you felt would be the result of starting 
at some place other than the 12th grade, or if they started 
at both ends or in the middle, was merely based upon your 
own subjective analysis and not based upon any profes­
sional accumulation of information which you had come 
upon, wasn’t it? A. Based upon my 30 years in the teaching 
profession as a teacher and as an administrator and with 
the activities that I ’ve had.

Q. But you have never taught in a desegregated system? 
A. No.

Q. Now, you don’t have any compilation of facts or 
figures relating to the number of teachers who would or 
would not refuse to continue to teach if the schools were 
desegregated, do you? A. No compilation, of figures, no.

Q. You don’t have any figures at all, do you, in your 
office? A. No official figures.

Q. You have no figures? A. No.
Q. So that, again your answers to the questions which 

were propounded by Mr. Jones, relative to who would or 
who would not continue, was just some subjective thought 
that you had concerning the matter and nothing based upon 
any factual analysis or factual studies that have been



223

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

made? A. No, they were based on personal conversations 
by quite a number of teachers.

Q. Excuse me, what do you call “quite a number of 
teachers”? A. Just that.

Q. Well, I mean quite a number might be 5 or it might 
be 25? A. I would say 8 or 10 and they’re in a group that 
would be symbolic of that sort of reaction.

Q. How would you know they would be symbolic? You 
didn’t ask the group? A. No, I just know their status 
would be in that same area there.

Q. So, this is some more of your subjective analysis, 
is that correct? A. No, it was based on personal conver­
sations.

Q. Well, you had conversation with 8 or 10? A. We’ve 
had principals who indicated that their teachers had told 
them, some of them, that rather than—

Q. Did they say how many? A. No.
Q. They didn’t say how many ? A. No.
Q. Well, you have about 1200 and if you talked to 8 or 

10, that might be 1/1000 of the total number of teachers that 
you’ve asked? A. It might be and if it grew, it might be 
1-something else of it.

Q. I mean, I haven’t figured it but I mean it would be 
an infinitesimally small figure? A. Based on the number 
who have spoke to me, yes.

Q. All right, let me ask you this— A. Based on the 
trend, it could be much greater than that, of course.

Q. It depends on which way it was trending, wouldn’t 
it? A. (No answer) . . .

Q. Now, let me ask you this: How many classrooms, if 
you know, are there—well, strike that and let me ask you
this— Do you know how many classrooms there are in the 
various high schools? A. I don’t have that information 
here.



224

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

Q. Do you have it here at all? A. No.
Q. I believe you indicated that the pay scale was slightly 

higher per individual Negro teacher than per individual 
white teacher, is that correct? A. I did not. Judge Atkin­
son did.

Q. Do you concur in that? A. Yes, I ’ll give you what 
the average is. The average Negro teacher makes, the 
average this year, is $5365; that’s the annual salary. The 
average for the white teacher is $5248, a little over $100 
difference. That’s based on certification from the State.

Q. Certification? A. And length of teaching experience, 
and—

Q;. Excuse me, the checks come through your office, is 
that correct? A. That’s right.

Q. Now, do you know whether or not the coach at Appling 
High receives a supplement to his salary by virtue of the 
fact that he coaches? A. The coach that’s been desig­
nated at any school by the Board of Education receives a 
supplement for his work.

Q. Does that supplement run the same in all of the high 
schools? A. No. It would depend on the importance of 
his job, his experience, his background in the phys-ed 
department and various factors.

Q. What do yon mean by the “importance” of his job? 
A. Whether he was head coach or an assistant coach.

Q. Suppose he was the head coach? A. He would make 
more than he would if he were an assistant coach.

Q. Would he make the same in Lanier as he would in 
Appling? A. Not necessarily, he wouldn’t make the same 
at Dudley Hughes as he made at Lanier or Appling. It 
depends on his background and his experience and his 
certification. All of those things enter into it.



225

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

Q. All right, they are both certified No. 4 and they have 
the same amount of teaching experience: would they then 
receive the same thing! A. They’re what now!

Q. They are certified on what we call a 4th level grade 
certificate and they have the same number—they have the 
same teaching experience from the standpoint of years! 
A. Are they head coaches or assistant coaches!

Q. They’re head coaches! A. They make different 
amounts. It would depend on their background, what they 
had done.

Q. What do you mean! A. Their initiative, their ability 
to coach.

Q. You mean to win! A. The personal factor. No, this 
system does not emphasize winning ahead of everything 
else. We, of course, like to win, but no.person has ever 
been fired in Bibb County for not winning', as they have in 
some other systems.

Q. They’ve both been coaching for the same number of 
years; they both have 4-area certificate; that’s not the word 
“area”—what is the proper word! This 4th echelon of 
certification! A. 4-year certificate based on 4 years of 
college work, that’s it.

Q. All right, let’s take it mp a step, let’s make it 5; they 
have 5-year certificate; they’ve been coaching the same 
number of years; they’ve been at their respective schools 
the same number of years! A. There might be a variance 
in their supplement for coaching based on personal matters 
that involve initiative, ability and so on. However, from 
the standpoint of their academic, they would both make the 
same thing.

Q. They would be paid first as teachers ? A. Right.
Q. For 4-year certificate! A. Right.
Q. Is that correct! A. That’s right.



226

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

Q. And then, there would be a supplement which is paid 
pursuant to a formula, which becomes subjective then to 
the Superintendent, is that correct, or to the Board? A. 
They would be paid—at the time that they were employed 
as that coach, we would determine and negotiate then and 
that would be part of their contract.

Q. So, they might not get anything? A. Yes, if they 
were a head coach, if they were a coach, assisted in that, 
they would get a supplement.

Q. But it just might vary from school to school? But 
it might vary from school to school? A. They don’t have 
a standard pay scale for coaches. It varies on the indi­
viduals and his background and his experience.

Q. I see you put out this instruction sheet that goes along 
with the procedure for executing student transfer requests: 
Has the Board or your office at any time ever drafted a 
little instruction sheet for parents relating to the matter 
of the desegregation process? A. Not at the present time. 
We’re waiting for the Court to direct us and then we’ll do 
what’s necessary in preparation.

Q. Have there ever been any joint meetings, joint teach­
ers’ meetings or joint principal meetings? I believe you 
said there had not, is that right? A. Our teachers groups 
have separate professional organizations. One of them is 
the Bibb County Teachers Association that affiliates with 
the Georgia Teachers Association. That’s the Negro pro­
fessional group. The other is the Bibb Educational Asso­
ciation and it affiliates with the Georgia Education Asso­
ciation.

Q. But I mean you have the authority to draw or to 
have the principals meet at any time and any place that 
you see fit, without any relationship which they might have 
to their respective teaching associations; isn’t that true? 
A. That’s true.



227

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

Q. But this does not happen! A. We meet separate.
Q. There’s no contemplation of any change in that as 

of this time? A. I couldn’t answer that. That depends 
on the need, the circumstances, and many things.

Q. Then, your answer to my question is “no”? A. Not 
necessarily.

Q. You do then contemplate making some change? A. 
If there should he a need, an urgent need for it, we would 
certainly consider it, yes.

Q. You would consider it? A. Yes.
Q. But there’s been no consideration made of it as of 

now? A. We haven’t found it necessary to do that as of 
now.

Q. Now, one last set of questions: You discussed the 
matter of certain schools being in various states of con­
struction. Now, this Ballard Jr. High of some 40 rooms, 
which is to be a mile and a half, give or take a few blocks, 
from the original school, has the foundation been poured 
in that school? A. The foundation work has been begun.

Q. To what extent? A. I wouldn’t know the latest de­
velopment of it. The weather has caused us to be 3 or 4 
months behind in all of our building projects; but that 
school had one of our priorities.

Q. Have the footings been done? A. I would not know 
just what the status is because the weather has delayed 
us out there.

Q. In other words, you’re saying you don’t know whether 
it has begun at all or not?

Mr. Jones: He didn’t say that, Your Honor. He 
said it had begun.

Mr. Hollowell: Well, I ’m asking him the question.
The Witness: The architect—



228

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

Mr. Jones: You’ve already asked Mm the question 
and lie’s contradicting the witness’ statement by say­
ing “you don’t know something”, when the witness 
has just testified he did know.

Mr. Hollowell: The witness is on cross examina­
tion. Excuse me. The witness is on cross-examina­
tion and I can lead him if I want to, I submit.

Mr. Jones: If Your Honor please, I wish to regis­
ter a protest against the examination of that nature; 
and I, of course, would like to direct my remarks to 
the Court. And that’s all I have to say.

Mr. Hollowell: May it please the Court, I would 
submit that when the testimony was given on yester­
day relating to these schools, it was—I ’m almost 
tempted to use our word, Your Honor—it was a 
little “queasy”. But it was unclear as to what the 
various status was or were in each of these particu­
lar pieces of property, where construction is going 
on; and he said that Ballard was under construction. 
I want to know whether it has been framed or 
whether the footings have been dug or whether the 
foundation has been poured.

The Court: All right, I ’ll overrule the objection. 
I don’t think you were undertaking to quote the wit­
ness as to what he said.

Mr. Hollowell: No sir.
The Court: You were just trying to shake him. 

So, go ahead.

By Mr. Hollowell:
Q. If you know, Mr. Gholson; I ’m just trying to get at 

what you know? A. Let me say that we were informed by



229

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Cross

the architect that the foundations had been established 
there and I imagine the footings have been poured by this 
time.

Q. For your information, you have to dig the footings 
and then you would pour the concrete for the foundation? 
A. All right. We were told that the foundations had been 
laid.

Q. Have been poured, all right? A. Yes.
Q. Now then, this Negro high school at Appling, 25 or 

30 rooms, you say that is in the planning stage! A. That’s 
correct.

Q. What do you mean by the “planning stage”? A. The 
type of building and the facilities to house the various de­
partments and so on.

Q. Wlrat architect is working on this or has it gotten 
to that stage yet? A. Well, Mr. Chester Crowell is our 
architect and we are in the planning stage of that now, 
to determine just what the building will do to produce the 
atmosphere for learning and for taking care of the various 
departments.

Q. When you say “we”, are you talking about the Board 
is in the process of doing some thinking about this subject 
and it is being turned over to the architect, Mr. Chester— 
who? A. Chester Crowell.

Q. Crowell? A. Crowell.
Q. How do you spell it? A. C-r-o-w-e-1-1 (spelling).
Q. Is it still in the board process of trying to make some 

analysis of what the basic need is, so it can be turned over 
to Mr. Crowell, or is it that it has been turned over to Mr. 
Crowell to try to produce for the school something consist­
ent with what they’ve already told him? A. The, Board is 
working with Mr. Crowell in the planning, the preliminary 
planning of the building.



230

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Redirect

Q. When is it suggested that this might get off of the 
Board? A. Well, you have quite a few approvals that have 
to be made. It will take several weeks probably.

Q. It might even take several months or several years? 
A. Well, it could but we don’t plan to. I t’s one of our 
priority needs and we’re making definite plans to build it.

Q. Now, is the planning stage at McEvoy and Willing­
ham, those two new junior highs, are they both about the 
same as this planning stage on—what was that—Appling? 
A. No, Willingham is behind Appling and McEvoy is be­
hind Ballard-IIudson. The Negro high schools are ahead 
of both of those in their building.

Q. Excuse me, and the reason for that is that that is 
where the greatest need is at this time, isn’t it? A. That’s 
right. I wouldn’t say the greatest. McEvoy is just as over­
crowded as the others but it just happens that they’re on 
the schedule that way. All of our facilities have been taxed 
with the increase in school enrollment in this system.

Q. I don’t believe there are any further questions for 
the Superintendent, Your Honor.

Redirect Examination by Mr. Jones:
Q. Just one, Your Honor please: Reference was made to 

membership in teachers’ organizations and you said there 
were two separate organizations: Does the Bibb County 
Board have anything whatever to do with those? A. None 
whatsoever.

Q, So far as you know, if members of one organization 
desired to join the other, could they do so? A. It would 
be up to the organization but not the Board of Education.

Q. I said, so far as the Board was concerned—let me re­
phrase my question—- So far as you or the Board are con­
cerned, if one of them desired to join the other organiza-



231

Julius L. Gholson—for Defendants—Resumed—Redirect

tion, or if they desired to merge and consolidate, would you 
have anything to do with that? A. No sir.

Q. That’s all.

By the Court:
Q. Mr. Gholson, I believe in the high schools for white 

children, we have segregation according to sex, that’s cor­
rect, is it not? A. Yes sir.

Q. Is that true as to the Negro schools or not? A. No 
sir.

Q. And that has always been true in Bibb County as to 
the white children or not? How long, how far back does 
that go, do you know? A. It started in 1924, Judge Bootle. 

Q. Began in ’24? A. Yes sir.

The Court: All right sir; any other questions, 
gentlemen.

By Mr. Jones:
Q. May I remind the witness that I think perhaps he 

didn’t consider Dudley Hughes in making that answer. 
Now, am I correct or wrong? A. Well, he said all of the 
high schools. Of course, Dudley Hughes is a high school—

The Court: And you do not have that there?
The Witness: With the exception of Dudley 

Hughes.
The Court: That’s right.
The Witness: We have one co-educational white 

high school.
Mr. Jones: No further questions.
The Court: Very well; go down, sir.



232

Colloquy

Mr. Jones: Your Honor please, my next witness 
I  expect to be the last one. I only expected to ask 
him a few questions but I wanted to give Mr. Hollo- 
well an opportunity to read this memorandum be­
fore I put him on the stand.

The Court: All right.
Mr. Jones: I don’t know whether Your Honor 

might consider at this time a brief recess or whether 
you would like for me just to take time for Mr. 
Hollowell to read this.

The Court: We’ll just take the time and let him 
read it. (Exhibit D-14 handed to Mr. Hollowell) . . .

The Court: I wonder if I may see the ’63-64 an­
nual report, which is mentioned in this literature?

Mr. Jones: Yes, Your Honor, here it is. We ex­
pected to offer that page in evidence. I think the 
reference is to page 104, if I ’m not mistaken.

The Court: Yes. You may give that a number.
The Clerk: Just the page or the book?
Mr. Jones: I don’t care to offer anything but the 

page. However, if Your Honor thinks the bulletin 
will be of any help, I ’ll offer the whole thing.

The Court: Well, I know nothing about it except 
the reference here.

Mr. Jones: It does contain everything, a great 
deal of financial data but page 104 is the only page.

The Court: This is reference to the transfer rules, 
is it not?

Mr. Jones: That’s right, applicable to high 
school students. (Page 104 of 1963-64 annual report, 
identified as Defendant’s Exhibit D-14.)

Mr. Hollowell: You don’t happen to have another 
copy, do you (referring to D-15)?



233

Raymonde M. Kelley•—for Defendants—Direct 

Mr. Jones: Yes.
Mr. Hollowell: Could I have another copy?
Mr. Jones: I was going to give you that one, but 

I’ll give you another one. . . .  (5 minutes later) . . . 
Shall I proceed now?
The Court: Yes.

Me. R aymonde M. K elley , witness called in behalf of 
Defendants, being first duly sworn, testified on

Direct Examination by Mr. Jones:
Q. State your name, please, Mr. Kelley, to the Court? 

A. Raymonde M. Kelley.
Q. How much? A. Raymonde M. Kelley.
Q. Raymonde M. Kelley? A. Yes sir.
Q. Mr. Kelley, what is your official connection with the 

Bibb County Board of Education? A. I ’m Director of the 
Vocational Education Program.

Q. Director of the Vocational Educational Program? 
A. Yes.

Q. Does that include the adult program which is spon­
sored by the State? A. Yes sir.

Q. Does it also include, at least to some extent, super­
vision of the programs which are vocational courses in the 
high schools? A. Yes sir, technical and some administra­
tive supervision.

Q. You are then the director of that entire program? 
A. Yes sir.

Q. Is there a principal of adult vocational education 
through whom you work or is that directly under your 
supervision, the adult program? A. That’s directly under



234

Raymo-nde M. Kelley-—for Defendants—Direct

my supervision, with administrative assistant helping me, 
Mr. Bob Horton.

Q. An administrative assistant! A. Yes sir.
Q. Now, insofar as high school courses are concerned, is 

that under the jurisdiction of a principal of the respective 
high schools? A. Yes sir, the students and administration 
of the program are under the jurisdiction of high school 
principal in all instances.

Q. But over all under your supervision, so far as the 
vocational work is concerned! A. That’s right.

Q. Mr. Kelley, will you state to the Court in your own 
language the emphasis which is being placed upon voca­
tional education, both at preparatory and high school levels 
and adults, and the need for it; just any observation that 
you feel that you could make to enlighten the Court as to 
the importance of vocational training, and the place which 
it now occupies in the public school programs? A. Yes 
sir, I ’ll be glad to. One of the best evidences that I could 
state is the fact that President Johnson signed a bill on 
December 19, making more funds available, about four 
times as much funds, as much money available for voca­
tional education as had ever been before.

The State Department of Education has much more funds 
and much more emphasis is placed, and the local Board, 
as evidenced by the fact that they’re building two new area 
trade schools. In other words, there’s emphasis from every 
angle on it. The manpower development training program 
is a part of that emphasis.

Q. That has generally been a matter of public note and 
public discussion in the papers and in periodicals, has it 
not! A. Yes sir, especially adult vocational education.

Q. So far as Bibb County is concerned, at which high 
schools in the system is there a vocational course included



235

Raymonde M. Kelley•—for Defendants—Direct

in the curriculum, preparatory course? A. The Dudley 
Hughes Vocational School and Dudley Hughes High School 
is, of course, the major one because it is a comprehensive 
high school, covering all phases of vocational educational 
department. The Ballard-Hudson school is the next largest. 
We have one program at Willingham. We have two very, 
very small programs at Lanier, Sr.

Q. So that, the inclusion of vocational courses in your 
high schools is restricted to a limited number of schools or 
only a portion of them, but not to any one or two high 
schools? A. That’s right.

Q. Generally speaking, is that available in the senior 
high school or in the junior high school? A. In the senior 
high school.

Q. Is it available in all grades of the senior high school 
or particularly in the 10th or 11th grades, I mean the 11th 
and 12th grades ? A. Primarily in the 11th and 12th 
grades. That’s where it’s supposed to be by Federal and 
State ruling and policy.

Q. That’s what I had in my mind? A. Yes sir.
Q. It’s supposed to be restricted to the 11th and 12th 

grades ? Are there any exceptions ? A. If they’re 16 years 
old and older, we do put them in, in many instances before 
they get to the 11th grade.

Q. Now, in addition to the vocational program in the 
high schools, is there a work study program in operation 
in the County? A. Yes sir, we have about 300 people in­
volved in this work study program in the high schools.

Q. Now, to what grades is that available ? A. That is 
available to the 11th and 12th grades only. We have to hold 
that—

Q. To the 11th and 12th grades? A. Yes sir.
Q. What do you mean by “work study program”? How 

does that operate? A. The students in these programs, we



236

Raymonde M. Kelley■—for Defendants—Direct

have 6 programs, I believe or maybe more if you count 
them; but anyway, the way it operates, the student is re­
sponsible for going to school 3 hours a day, and then they 
must work a minimum of 15 hours per week for an em­
ployer, and they are graded on their work out at industry 
or sales or whatever, office work or whatever they’re en­
gaged in.

Q. Now, do I understand that before a person will be 
eligible for that course, he’s required to have 3 hours of 
school work and 15 hours a week of employment! A. 
That’s right.

Q. Is that correct? A. That’s right.
Q. Then, do each of those requirements limit the other; 

that is, a person who can’t get the 3 hours school day, even 
though he may have employment, or the person that can’t 
get the employment even though he may have the three 
hours school day: would either one of those prevent his 
eligibility for that work? A. He could not stay on the 
program unless he had 3 hours in school, and we make 
every effort possible to place all of these people on jobs 
by the end of the first grade period and, if we can’t place 
them by then, we have to put them into other courses, so 
that they can continue their—

Q. Then, you mean that there is a trial period of pre­
liminary period, during which you make the effort to place 
them? A. That’s right.

Q. But if you’re not successful in that effort, then they 
have to take other work? A. And generally speaking, these 
coordinators, that’s teachers of these programs, work 12 
months in the year and they work during the summer on 
getting placements for the coming September.

Q. Then, you’ve already anticipated my next question. 
It is actually then a part of this program, which is under



237

Raymonde M. Kelley•—for Defendants—Direct

your direction, to secure employment, so as to make this 
work available! A. That’s right, yes sir.

Q. Now, in addition to that, is there a vocational pro­
gram for adults only? A. Oh yes sir.

Q. And that really makes three types of vocational pro­
grams that are under your direction or supervision! A. 
That’s right.

Q. The work-study program, the preparatory program 
and the adult program! A. That is correct.

Q. Where is the adult— First, where is the Work-Study 
Program conducted at, what schools! A. We have three 
at Dudley Hughes. Would you like for me to name the 
areas in which they operate or just tell you the names?

Q. No, just the location of where the courses are con­
ducted, the school facilities? A. We have three work-study 
programs at Dudley Hughes and then we have two work- 
study programs at Ballard-Hudson and one at Willingham 
High School.

Q. Now, that’s your work-study program? A. That’s 
the work-study program.

Q. H owt about your preparatory courses? I believe we’ve 
already covered that, I ’m not sure, or maybe we haven’t. 
Where are they given, the preparatory courses? A. Pri­
marily at Dudley Hughes and Ballard-Hudson and two at 
Lanier, two small ones at Lanier.

Q. Generally speaking, both of those programs are avail­
able only to senior high school students? A. Yes sir.

Q. Now, where is your adult vocational program con­
ducted? A. Well, it’s conducted at Ballard-Hudson and 
at Dudley Hughes and in several rented buildings around 
Dudley Hughes.

Q. For use on this trial have you prepared this memo­
randum which I hand you, Mr. Kelley? A. Yes sir, all of 
Sunday afternoon and most of Sunday night.



Raymonde M. Kelley—-for Defendants—Direct

Q. I notice it’s dated the 12th, that was actually Sunday, 
is that right? A. That’s right.

Q. You did complete it then Sunday night some time? 
A. Yes sir.

Q. Did you sign that or would you now sign it? Is that 
entirely your work? A. Yes sir, it’s entirely my work.

Q. Would you mind signing your name to it? A. I ’ll be 
glad to. Do you want it on each page?

Q. No, just the last page? A. (Witness signing docu­
ment identified as D-15). . . .  I included my full title.

Q. Are the facts stated in this memorandum factually 
correct? A. Yes sir.

Q. To the extent that opinions are expressed, are they 
your opinions? A. Yes sir, opinions of mine and my staff 
and my 22 years experience.

Q. Well, are they actually yours? A. Yes sir.

Mr. Jones: If Your Honor please, I ask that that 
be identified for the Defendant.

(Identified: Defendant’s Exhibit No. 15.)
And no further questions of this witness.
The Court: Now, we’ll rest for 10 minutes. Let 

me see that exhibit, please sir.
(Recess: 11:00 AM to 11:15 AM—April 14, 1964.)
The Court: All right, Mr. Hollowell. You had 

finished with him, Mr. Jones?
Mr. Jones: Yes sir.



239

Raymonde M. Kelley—for Defendants—Cross

Cross Examination lay Mr. Hollowell:
Q. Mr. Kelley, was on April 12 the first time that you 

had ever drafted anything such as this Defendant’s Ex­
hibit for identification No. 15? A. No, that wasn’t the first 
time.

Q. Sir? A. It wasn’t the first time that I ever drafted 
anything.

Q. Well, I mean relating to this matter, to the matter 
of the actual desegregation process in the vocational train­
ing program? A. No, I drafted a letter to Mr. Gholson 
when we were working on the Manpower Development 
Training Program and Offset Printing along the same, 
somewhat the same lines as that.

Q. Was there a distribution of this on a broad basis or 
only to Mr. Gholson? A. I believe it was only to Mr. 
Gholson, as far as I know.

Q. Did it set out that this program was available to all 
people? A. Yes.

Q. Now, when was that? A. It was in January of this 
year.

Q. Of this year? A. That’s right.
Q. Had there been any such before that time? A. Pos­

sibly, when we were working on the Electronics Program, 
in which Negro Bert Bivins was admitted. I don’t remem­
ber but there was possibly something along that line then.

Q. Mr. Kelley, I ’m having just a little difficulty hearing; 
could you just speak a little louder? A. All right.

Q. You say possibly the Electronics Program, you 
wouldn’t be sure about that? A. No, I wouldn’t be sure 
about it. I feel like that I did put out something of that 
nature, showing the necessity.

Q. I see. To the best of your knowledge, was it directed 
also to the Board of Education or to the Superintendent?



240

Raymonde M. Kelley—for Defendants—Cross

A. All iny letters are directed to the Superintendent con­
cerning this kind of thing.

Q. Have you ever seen any publication or distribution 
of that which you sent to Mr. Gholson? Have you ever 
seen any publication or distribution of it on a broad circle 
to the other schools or in the newspapers? A. No.

Q. At the time when you had made or given these notices 
to Mr. Gholson, had you made any recommendations to 
the effect that there be a broad distribution, so that Negro 
and white citizens in the community might be able to take 
the fullest advantage of the program? A. Well now, the 
program was publicized but not the letter to Mr. Gholson, 
but the programs are always publicized.

Q. Well, the program as such is publicized by the bro­
chures and so forth which might come down to you from 
either the State or Federal Government in this matter, is 
that correct? A. No, we create the brochures.

Q. You create the brochures? A. And publicize the pro­
gram through the newspapers and other news media.

Q. I see. In the past there had not been any Negroes 
in attendance at Dudley Hughes to take advantage of the 
programs there, had there? A. We now have two.

Q. I  say in the past? A. Well, up until 18 months ago.
Q. Now, those two are where, at Dudley Hughes? A. At 

Dudley Hughes.
Q. Those were in the adult program? A. That is cor­

rect.
Q. Have you or have you not ever recommended that 

this program be made completely available on a broad basis 
through the Board of Education? A. That is policy, which 
the Board of Education would be the ones to determine.
I have talked with them about it.



241

Raymonde M. Kelley—for Defendants—Cross

Q. Do you know whether or not they have ever done this ? 
A. They have been most cooperative in the adult area by 
going into this pre-court ordered thing of letting Bert 
Bivins come in on individual basis and on the Manpower 
Development Training Program. It was approved as a 
program for all who come not as an individual. However, 
Bert Bivins was approved as an individual. But now we 
have an approved program as such.

Q. Now, do I understand that it is your contention that 
all of these programs that are now offered at Dudley 
Hughes and that are nowT offered at Ballard are available 
to all people who can qualify by virtue of taking the tests 
which are offered in advance of their acceptance? A. Only 
the Manpower Development Training Program has been 
approved by the Board of Education for integrated classes.

Q. I see, only that? A. Only that one program.
Q. Do you know whether that was approved through a 

resolution or was it approved by a letter to you? A. I do 
not know. I was notified by the Superintendent to proceed 
with the Manpower Development Training Program.

Q. Then, how did you notify the total community? A. 
The Employment Security Office in Macon on this particu­
lar program, they do the selecting of all students coming 
into it by means of tests. Those students are referred to 
me. And so far, I haven’t refused to take any one. I would 
have the authority to refuse to take any one who did, who 
they referred; but so far I have not refused to accept any 
student referred by them. And they did the publicity on it,

Q. The Employment Security Program did the publicity? 
A. That’s right, Mr. Joe Jackson, the Manager.

Q. Do you know to what extent that publicity ran? A. 
Well, it has to be on people who are unemployed; so they



242

Raymonds M. Kelley—for Defendants■—Cross

did it by mail. They pulled the cards on job applicants 
and mailed notices to them to report for tests.

Q. Now, suppose that the individual—well, strike that 
and let me ask you this— Do you know generally the nature 
of the test? A. I t’s what is known as GATB, which is 
general aptitude test administered by the Employment 
Security office personnel.

Q. Do you know whether or not there is any program 
which has been instituted by—what is it, the Employment 
Security— A. Employment Security office, yes.

Q. —to train individuals preparatory to taking the test? 
A. No, there is no such thing existing as far as I know in 
any area.

Q. As the Director of the Program, and realizing the 
tremendous limitations that Negroes have had to even 
prepare for this kind of thing, that is the kind of person 
who might be taking this test and who is unemployed and 
who would need the training, would you say that such a 
program would be advisable and good? A. I already have 
one of that nature approved, because I realize the need for 
that kind of thing. "We have a program under the Man­
power Development Training Act, which as soon as the 
money is appropriated—the Act has been passed—we will 
take a group of people into Auto Body and Fender, who 
will get one hour a day remedial training, such as reading 
and that kind of thing. They will be unemployed adults 
and they will not be required to take the test even at the 
employment office; and we’ll take all who come and then 
try to improve from what we get in.

Q. I see. Now, what about other areas, say the auto 
mechanic situation? A. We have—this is pilot program 
that we plan to see how it works. Now, we don’t know 
whether it will be the thing to do or not.



243

Raymonde M. Kelley—for Defendants■—Cross

Q. When do you plan to institute this! A. As soon as 
the appropriation is passed by Congress. They’re a little 
but busy up there in the Senate right now.

Q. Do you know whether or not in the school system 
there is any other adult education program sponsored! A. 
State the question again, please!

Q. I say, do you know whether or not there is any other 
adult program fostered by the Board of Education; that 
is adult education program! A. It all is under the Dudley 
Hughes program in different areas, different geographical 
locations, but all the adult training is under the Bibb 
County Board and the vocational program.

Q. What I have reference to, Mr. Kelley, other than 
vocational program which you have discussed, and I am 
seeking information here! Do you know whether or not 
there’s any other adult program, particularly of a remedial 
nature, which is sponsored by the Board of Education! 
Eeally I should have asked Mr. Gholson that but I didn’t ; 
and so, I ’m asking you if you know! A. It would come 
under my supervision anyway. Of course, there is one 
planned this summer, which I do know about, for reading. 
I know—I don’t know anything about the details as that 
would be Mr. Gholson’s business.

Q. This vocational education plan—incidentally, if this 
is going to get any wide distribution, may I suggest that 
you make correction in the spelling of the word “integra­
tion’’ here; if you’re going to give it wide distribution, you 
might, I think it occurs also in the last— A. We were 
doing that late Sunday night; so you might find several 
things wrong with it.

Q. I ’m not criticizing, I ’m trying to be helpful, Mr. 
Kelley! A. I know.

Q. I ’m trying to be helpful! A. Okay.



244

Raymonde M. Kelley—for Defendants-—Cross

Q. In case you plan some wide distribution of it, you 
might want to do that.

Mr. Jones: Tour Honor please, that was not pre­
pared for distribution. It was simply prepared as 
information to be presented in this case as evidence. 
There may be some distribution of something but 
that was not prepared for that primary purpose.

Mr. Hollowell: I understand. As I say, I ’m just 
trying to be helpful in case there was going to be 
some wide distribution, that you would want to make 
that correction, I ’m sure?

The Witness: Yes. Thank you, sir.

Q. Let me ask you this, Mr. Kelley, looking on page 2 
on this would be (b)-3, it says:

“No vocational cooperative training—work program— 
is offered at Ballard-Hudson, due to the fact that the 
community will not employ enough part-time Negro 
office workers to support the program. (These part- 
time students are not eligible for government work)”

Do I understand by that, that there is no such program at 
Ballard-Hudson, because these persons can’t get part-time 
work in the total community, either in the downtown area 
or in some government office? A. No, in the total com­
munity?

Q. This is in the total community? A. That’s right.
Q. Do you know whether or not there has been any group 

or whether or not the school through its placement of facili­
ties—I ’m speaking of the Dudley Hughes now or the other 
high schools—wherein there has been an effort to educate 
the general community toward accepting these trainees,



245

Raymonde M. Kelley—for Defendants■—Cross

in order that they might be able to have such a program? 
A. Definitely. We have tried to and we have succeeded in 
doing enough education along the lines of sales training 
work. The sales training work at Ballard-Hudson is doing 
much better, but we are still having difficulty educating 
the community in the field of accepting Negro office work­
ers, into the office training field.

Q. Have you at any time addressed this matter to the 
Human Relations Council or other organizations that might 
be able to give you some help along these lines? A. No, 
we worked on it within our own organization because when 
we go out into that, then we get into the policy field again.

Q. Now, what do you mean by these part-time students 
are not eligible for government, what do you mean by that? 
A. These people have to go to school three hours a day and 
the Government’s programs are not set up to use part- 
time workers, other than in the Postal, mail-handling field 
and that kind, but not part-time office workers.

Q. I see. So, the only way they could get into the govern­
ment is that they would have to have already been trained? 
A. And we have a program for that on a night basis for 
adults.

Q. Is there a part-time program at Dudley Hughes in 
vocational office training? A. Yes, a very successful one.

Q. I ’m sorry? A. Yes, a very successful one.
Q. Now, is it your understanding that under the program 

any student, who might take the initial aptitude test, might 
get into this program at Dudley Hughes? A. That will 
depend on the outcome of the plan.

Q. Of the plan? A. It is not presently authorized by the 
Board of Education that they do that.

Q. I see. Who pays you? A. Bibb County Board of 
Education.



246

Raymonds M. Kelley—for Defendants—Cross

Q. So, actually all of this plan and all of your activities, 
though there are supplements coming from various geo­
graphical subdivisions, actually you come under the control 
of the Board? A. That is correct. I ’m responsible to Mr. 
Gholson, Superintendent, directly responsible to him.

Q. Therefore, this is an official part of the plan, this 
procedural—what do you call it—“Vocational Education 
and the Plan for Integration”, should be technically a part 
of the planning aspects and procedural aspects and admin­
istrative aspects of this Plan that has been submitted by 
the Board? A. That would be determined by people of 
higher echelon administration than I am.

Q. What would you estimate the value of the equipment 
in the machine shop at Dudley Hughes to be? A. In the 
machine shop ?

Q. Yes? A. Oh, presently in use, $50,000.
Q. Is there some anticipation of additional equipment? 

You said “presently” in use and this is what provokes the 
question? A. Yes. We’re in the process now of recondi­
tioning and rebuilding the machine shop equipment for 
both the new area trade schools, which will run approxi­
mately $100,000 each in each one of them.

Q. When you say the “new area trade schools”, now 
where are they? These are schools in supplement of the 
vocational training program that you have in these schools 
that we have already discussed? A. Yes.

Q. These are new schools yet unbuilt? A. These are 
new schools yet to be built.

Q. Which will come under your supervision? A. Yes,, 
as far as I  know now, that’s correct.

Q. How many of them are there planned? A. Two.
Q. Do you know the general locations? A. Yes, one 

is approximately 300 yards from the Ballard-Hudson shop



247

Rayrnonde M. Kelley—for Defendants—Cross

building and the other one is 40 feet from the Dudley 
Hughes building.

Q. Is it anticipated that they would offer the same kind 
of program? A. There again, we get into a new philos­
ophy. In the past we have trained for existing jobs and 
that was borne out in the office training instance there; but 
we are faced with a new kind of thing, sort of, the nature 
of the thing, which comes first the chicken or the egg, 
whether we get the trained worker or the job first. So, 
we are going to delve into preparing Negroes for higher 
level jobs and using this school adjacent to Ballard-Hudson 
as a feeder to the large school at Dudley Hughes. This is 
presently my thinking. I don’t know that that will be done 
because it’s a matter of policy.

Q. Now, I notice that the word “feeder” is used in the 
Plan as you have drafted here now. Do I understand that 
the courses which are being offered, for instance at Ballard- 
Hudson—Hudson-Ballard or is it Ballard-Hudson? A. 
Ballard-Hudson.

Q. Thank you—or shall we say first echelon or ele­
mentary types of courses, type of courses, pursuant to 
taking more advanced courses at Dudley Hughes? Is that 
what you mean by “feeder”? A. It would mean in the ease 
of one course that we have out there, that is electronics, 
but all the other courses are top echelon courses and they 
prepare people to go out and really get with it and go to 
work. For instance, you were talking about the new high 
schools. Two of our graduates from the Ballard-Hudson 
School are brick contractors, sub-contractors for the brick 
work on the whole school building, which is a credit to any 
program to have that kind of people coming out of it.

But getting back to this “feeder” thing, now Bert-Bivins 
was trained about, I believe 6 or 8 months, in the electronics



248

Raymonde M. Kelley—for Defendants'—Cross

program at Ballarcl-Hndson and he did a good job over 
there; and when he came into the Dudley Hughes program, 
he was able to be very successful. He hit about the middle 
of his class all the way through, sometimes above and 
sometimes a little below.

Q. Let me ask you this: Do they have the same echelon 
of training at Dudley Hughes that they have at Ballard, 
plus the advanced program, or just the advanced program1? 
A. We have the same plus the advanced program in Elec­
tronics.

Q. And machine-shop-wise as of now there’s only one 
machine shop ? A. That is correct.

Q. Now, how does one get into that program? A. We 
have a testing and have had a testing program for about 
18 months because we were getting so many drop-outs and 
fall-outs. The training gets more difficult on the higher 
level. So, we obtained the services of Mr. Pat Massey over 
at Mercer University and we have him on retainer basis; 
and we have a selection program for all students and .it is 
most necessary. We find that it’s being very successful. 
Anybody that makes application to go to the machine shop, 
we’ll use that as one but it’s for all courses, they have to 
take a test as prescribed by him and he grades it and gives 
me a write-up on it, and we set up a folder on that person; 
and then, if they pass it, they’re admitted after interview. 
The test is not the only measure but it’s the primary 
measure.

Q. Would you suggest that if you had, talking about 
the area trade schools that are anticipated, that if you had 
one really first-class school, that anybody qualified could 
attend, that you might get a better quality of product 
ultimately than in spreading the little money that is being 
anticipated for the construction of the two schools? A.



249

Raymonde M. Kelley—for Defendants-—Cross

The matter of one or two schools is a matter of policy of 
the Bibb County Board of Education, and I don’t care 
to comment on policy.

Q. I think that’s a good answer, Mr. Kelley. Let me see, 
I have one or two more things here I wanted to ask you. 
Now, for my clarification, Mr. Kelley, the whole program 
of vocational training is not adult? A. No.

Q. The adult program is completely separate from the 
program which runs as a part of the regular high school 
curriculum, is that correct? A. No, it is not completely 
correct.

Q. All right now, explain that to me if there’s some— 
A. That gets into a thing that you’re going to have to fol­
low real close.

Q. All right, I ’ve been trying to? A. The Dudley 
Hughes High School is a unit of the vocational program. 
It is what is known as. a “comprehensive high school.” 
We are primarily set up at the Dudley Hughes High School 
to train people to go to work. Now, if they’re going to 
college, we’d rather they’d go to one of what we call the 
“college preparatory high schools” and take a college 
preparatory course.

So, this high school is set up in the Hughes building and 
many of these 11th and 12th grade people go to class with 
adult students who are there at the same time.

Q. I see, so that this is technically a vocational high 
school? A. Yes. Well, I ’d rather call it “comprehensive” 
high school.

Q. All right, in that they offer the ordinary subjects 
which any other high school might offer? A. Correct.

Q. Plus a vocational training program? A. Correct. 
Three hours a day in the 11th and 12th grades is what 
vocational work they get.

Q. Say that again? A. Three hours each day in the 
11th and 12th grades is vocational.



250

Raymonde M. Kelley—for Defendants’—Cross

Q. Now, at the other schools, say at Ballard and Lanier 
and Willingham, where you have vocational programs, is 
it a separate adult and high school student program, or 
are they combined, or are they separated? Explain this 
to me. A. Well now, at Ballard, up until the time that 
the enrollment got so heavy that we didn’t have space 
for them, we had the adults and the high school people 
going at the same time. Then, the high school pressure got 
too great there; so, all the adults at Ballard have to go at 
night now. There’s no room out there for them in the day­
time. I t ’s a space situation.

Q. How about Lanier? A. That is strictly a high school 
vocational program. We do not have an adult program 
at Lanier.

Q. How do the courses of training run there, as com­
pared, say with those at the Ballard day school program, 
which is relegated only to students also? A. Yes. We have 
two very small programs at Lanier, one in wood shop and 
one in sheet-metal; and we don’t have enough enrollment 
in those to go too much longer.

Q. How about Willingham? A. We have only the work- 
study program and distributive education at Willingham.

Q. And what kind of education? A. Work-study. Dis­
tributive education, that’s sales training.

Q. And, of course, there is none at Appling? A. No.
Q. Can a student who wants to take machine shop and 

who is in attendance at Ballard go to Dudley Hughes to 
take that training? A. Not without Board of Education 
authorization on the present set-up.

Q. Now, as you understand it, could he do it anyhow 
unless he was in the 12th grade? A. Be-state your ques­
tion, please.



251

Raymonde M. Kelley—for Defendants■—Cross

Q. I say, unless—I say lie couldn’t do it anyhow, he 
couldn’t make the transfer from Ballard, where there is 
no machine shop, to Dudley Hughes, where there is a 
machine shop program, unless he is in the 12th grade and 
makes an application within whatever period they set and 
the Superintendent approves his transfer to Dudley 
Hughes: Isn’t this your understanding of the way the 
program is to work? A. If he were 16 years old and going 
into the 11th grade and was approved by the Board of 
Education, and Mr. G-holson were to notify me, he could 
go.

Q. Well, you understand that as of this time the plan 
doesn’t call for permission to transfer on the part of any­
one except those who would be in the 12th grade; you 
understand that, don’t you? A. Well, I wasn’t involved in 
that part with the vocational. I was telling the present 
set-up of the vocational program.

Q, Well, there has never been up to this point anybody 
who was transferred from any of the schools in the regular 
day program to Ballard-Hudson, has there, no one of 
color transferred? A. No.

Q. And under the program, as you understand it now, 
there is no contemplation that there would be? A. Well, 
as part of this—

Q. I mean, as you understand it? A. As I understand 
it, that’s correct.

Q. That would be correct? A. I  don’t know of any.
Q. So then, as I understand it, the only place where, there 

is any integrated or desegregated process in existence at 
Dudley Hughes, relates to adults who might make appli­
cation through the Employment Security Program and be 
approved by them, by virtue of passing a test, and thereby 
they would be able to get in to the adult program; is this



252

Raymonde M. Kelley—for Defendants—Cross

correct? A. On the present approval basis, yes. The 
Board has authorized that program only.

Q. And that only? A. And that only.
Q. Is this your language, this last sentence down here 

on the last page, page 4? Well, we’ll take both nest to the 
last—and yon have that same misspelling there— “The 
adult vocational program is the program under considera­
tion for integration.” I believe this would be consistent 
with what you say, “only the adult program is under con­
sideration”, according to what you have said here? A. 
That’s right.

Q. “In no way is this to be construed as pertaining in 
any manner toward integration of the Dudley Hughes 
High School operation, other than on conditions applicable 
to all other Bibb County high schools.” A. That’s correct.

Q. This is as you understand it? A. 'That’s the way I 
understand it.

Q. So then, what we said about the matter of the transfer 
from one high school to another in order to take advantage 
of the program at Dudley Hughes, would be governed by 
the proposed plan? A. That is correct.

Q. And woidd relate only to individuals on the 12th 
grade level, as of September, ’64, as you understand it? 
A. As I understand it, that is correct.

Q. Thank you, Mr. Kelley. I believe that’s all.

By the Court:
Q. Mr. Kelley, let me ask you one question, I  ought to 

know: Just what is meant by “distributive education” and 
what is meant by “diversified cooperative training”? A. 
Your Honor, distributive education is training for sales 
positions; in other words, distribution of goods and ser-



253

Raymonde M. Kelley—for Defendants—-Cross

vices. Diversified cooperative training is work-study pro­
gram, which deals with a much wider range of jobs, such 
as you would find in industry, service work, maintenance 
work and all that kind of thing.

The Court: I see; thank you.
Mr. Jones: You may come down, Mr. Kelley. That 

completes our case, Your Honor, except for some 
introduction of documents.

The Court: All right. You may introduce those 
right now, if you like.

Mr. Jones: The reporter has identified, I believe, 
a total of 16 exhibits. The Clerk has them there on 
the desk.

The Clerk: Fifteen.
The Court: Fifteen with this gentleman’s report.
Mr. Jones: I would like to introduce them col­

lectively.
The Court: Very well.
Mr. Jones: Only one has actually been admitted 

in evidence so far. Unless it is for some reason 
necessary to enumerate them in offering them, and 
offer them separately, we will handle in that way.

The Court: All right, you certainly may tender 
them in a group and we’ll see what objection there 
may be.

The Clerk: D-4 has already been admitted.
The Court: Any objection to this collective tender?
Mr. Hollowell: If I could take a look at them for 

just a moment, Your Honor, I  think maybe we might 
be able to expedite it.

The Court: All right, now I have a number of 
them up here.



254

Defendants’ Exhibits

Mr. Jones (to Mr. Hollo well): I  will be glad to 
supply you with a copy of any of those that you do 
not already have a copy of.

Mr. Hollowell: All right (checking through ex­
hibits at Clerk’s desk) . . .  No objection to 1 through 
3, so far Your Honor. #4, I believe, has been ad­
mitted?

The Court: Yes, correct.
Mr. Hollowell: No objection to # 5 ; none to 6.

. . . I ’ve seen 7 and there’s none to that . . . I ’ve seen 
8 and none to th a t. .. none to 9.

I think I really ought to object to #10, being a 
petition in a given case in the State court, which is 
a court of record. All I can see that this does is to 
clutter the record. There were allegations and state­
ments to the effect that this was in fact done, and 
there being no judgment thereon, I  think it would 
be meaningless.

Mr. Jones: The order is the next paper.
Mr. Hollowell: All right. With that I won’t even 

make the objection. So, that will be 10 and 11.
The Court: 11 is the decree, is it?
Mr. Hollowell: Yes sir. This is the resolution. 

None to 12; 13 through 15, no objections.
The Court: All admitted. (D-l—D-15)
Mr. Jones: Now, if Your Honor please, I have 

one thing further I  wish to offer. This again refers 
to the State Court proceeding, and this is a brief 
here in my hand, which the Board filed before Judge 
Aultman in that case. I  wish to offer the following 
extract from that brief as a statement of the Board’s 
motive and purpose. May I read it now?

The Court: You may show it to counsel.



255

Defendants’ Exhibits

Mr. Jones: That’s the second to the last para­
graph of the brief:

“We wish to make it clear that the Bibb County 
Board of Education has no desire to shirk or evade 
or to surrender either its corporate responsibilities 
or its corporate powers.

“It is the objective of this petition to obtain a 
decision by this Court under which Plaintiff can 
lawfully under its charter provide a system of public 
schools for both white and colored children in Bibb 
County, notwithstanding a part thereof may be in­
valid which requires that separate and distinct 
schools shall be provided for the different races.”

I would like for the reporter to identify that and 
offer that in evidence.

The Clerk: That will be D-16.
The Court: Any objection?
Mr. Hollowell: AVe have no objection, Your Honor.
The Court: Admitted.
Mr. Jones: Counsel or Mr. Miller asked me—I 

won’t call him counsel, he’s my client—Mr. Miller 
asked me if a set of these procedures were offered. 
I ’m quite sure that’s correct.

The Court: D-13.
Mr. Jones: Thank you. That’s all, Your Honor.
The Court: All right.
Mr. Hollowell: May it please the Court, relative 

to matters which we addressed to the Court earlier 
relating to the Plaintiffs, where they live and so 
forth, I discussed that with Mr. Jones—

Mr. J  ones: And I meant to supplement that.
Mr. Hollowed: —and there was a little supple­

mental stipulation which I think was in turn agreed 
upon.



256

Stipulation

Mr. Jones: I told counsel that I would he very 
happy to substitute for the words “may well be” the 
word “is” or “are in fact” ; so that, that would be 
a stipulation of a fact. That’s sufficient, is it not!

Mr. Hollowell: I think this would be sufficient to 
cover it which makes it unnecessary for us to put 
on anyone to prove it.

The Court: Very well, so stipulated.
Mr. Hollowell: We have nothing further.
The Court: A11 right, both sides close. Do you 

gentlemen wish to argue your case orally or would 
you prefer to submit it by written briefs on a fast 
schedule time-wise!

We are now, according to the plan the proposed 
plan as implemented by proposed procedures, today 
is the 14th; tomorrow we’ll be in the regular period 
for making applications for transfer.

Mr. Jones: That is, for subsequent year.
The Court: For subsequent year, that’s what 1 

mean.
Mr. Jones: That’s correct.
The Court: So, therefore, I ’m taking notice of the 

calendar. I ’m a little incline—I think you gentlemen 
ought to order the record in this case; I think it 
ought to be reduced to writing. . . .

How long would it take you here, Mr. Joiner, to 
transcribe this record !

The Reporter: I could probably get it out by Mon­
day, if that’s satisfactory.

The Court: By Monday!
The Reporter: I ’ll put it ahead of everything else 

I have.



257

Colloquy

Mr. Hollo well: Might I say this then, Your Honor. 
Certainly, I think that it would be desirable to have 
some early ruling in this case. At the same time, I 
know that my schedule is tremendously mean, as is 
the Court’s ; and my preference would be, so far as 
the Plaintiffs are concerned, to argue the case orally; 
and then, if perhaps after the record came out, the 
Court felt that it might be helpful in presenting any 
supplement thereto, then certainly counsel would be 
most willing. But knowing my schedule as I do, un­
less the Court directed it, I would probably forego 
the matter of preparation of a brief except, as I 
said, by way of supplement.

The Court: What is your pleasure there, Mr. 
Jones'?

Mr. Jones: I fully agree with the Court that this 
is a matter calling for speed according to the calen­
dar. Our school system usually closes for summer 
around the first of June. I don’t know really that 
30 days is required for registration for a transfer, 
but we have offered to allow 30 days; and I would 
like, the System would like for that period to start 
as early as May 1, so as to allow 30 days in the month 
of May before the schools stop for the summer. 
That calls for speed in connection with securing the 
record and in connection with arguing the case, and 
also on Your Honor’s part to some extent in acting 
upon the argument.

Now, so far as the argument is concerned, I would 
like to have the privilege of submitting a written 
memorandum. However, that does not mean that 
I ’m not also quite willing to engage in oral discus­
sion of the question. In fact, it may be profitable



258

Colloquy

to do that; yet, I would like the privilege of certainly 
in time, not to interrupt that schedule, to present a 
brief. And it may be that if counsel wants to pre­
sent his views now orally, then allow me to reply 
orally or to reply in writing, I will undertake to do 
it within a period of say not more than ten (10) 
days, which would be some time in advance of the 
first of the month. But I don’t even think it neces­
sary for me to wait to secure the record before I 
at least start the preparation of that.

Mr. Hollowed: May I say, Your Honor, that we 
would be guided by whatever direction the Court 
feels would be most convenient for the Court in the 
matter.

Mr. Jones: I have never felt that an argument, 
oral argument, to the Court after two days of testi­
mony right off the griddle at that time was too help­
ful. If there was a jury here, of course, that would 
be the accepted procedure.

I believe my views are pretty well disclosed by 
the pleadings and by the testimony which we elicited. 
But I do want the opportunity to summarize that and 
present it to Your Honor in some form, either orally 
or in a written memorandum.

The Court: What do you think of letting you gen­
tlemen go on to your respective offices and dictate 
your arguments right now, not wait for the record; 
have your briefs here by Monday1? The record will 
be available Monday. Then, say by Thursday of next 
week either side file any supplementation or rebuttal 
with the record before you.

Mr. Jones: That’s entirely satisfactory with me.



259

Colloquy

Mr. Hollowell: It so happens with me, Your 
Honor, that it would put an extraordinary burden 
upon me. I have matters where there are briefs that 
I already have to get out between now and Monday, 
one of which appears is going to take maybe all 
night because it is due tomorrow and we’ve already 
had one extension.

The Court: Well, do you think it would help you 
somewhat if we hear your oral argument now?

Mr. Hollowell: If we had no argument now?
The Court: No, hear your oral argument now. 

I ’ll be glad to do that, and then Mr. Jones’ written 
argument to come in by Monday will be somewhat 
of a reply in nature. You have the burden here 
according to announcement at the beginning of the 
trial, anyhow. I ’ll be delighted to hear your argu­
ment now and that might shorten the preparation 
of your brief.

Mr. Hollowell: I think maybe that might be de­
sirable. I know Your Honor made this statement 
earlier sometime down during the trial, and I wanted 
at some time to address myself to it.

Your Honor indicated that we had, that we have 
the burden, and I want to say, I  want to see if I 
understand what Your Honor means, whether you 
mean the burden of persuasion here or the burden—■

The Court: No, no, simply the burden—I gave 
you the burden of producing evidence here.

Mr. Hollowell: Against the plan?
The Court: That’s right, that’s right. I t’s stipu­

lated here that your Plaintiffs are entitled to some 
relief; there’s no doubt about that.



260

Colloquy

Mr. Hollowell: I just wanted to have that clear, 
and that would—

The Court: Now, the nature of the relief and the 
extent of the relief, that is what the meeting is 
about.

Mr. Hollowell: Very well, sir.
The Court: Now, how much time—and I ’m not 

hurrying you at all—how much time do you wish 
for argument now?

Mr. Hollowell: Not more than 30 minutes and 
probably less. Really, Your Honor, all I want to 
do is to particularize.

The Court: Well, that’s fine. So, we’ll do this: 
I ’m going to give you 30 minutes now and then 
I ’m going to give Mr. Jones 30 minutes, if he wants 
it, or I ’ll give him the option of following the brief 
route by Monday, either way he desires. And it 
may be helpful to follow this procedure now, so 
that we’ll at least know exactly what your objec­
tions are to the proposed plan; and we’ll be joining 
issue, so to speak.

Now, would you like a short recess before argu­
ment or are you ready to proceed?

Mr. Hollowell: I think I ’m ready to proceed, 
Your Honor.

The Court: Very well.
Mr. Jones: Will Your Honor excuse me to get 

some water just a moment?
The Court: Yes sir.
Mr. Jones: Mr. Hollowell may go right ahead.
Mr. Hollowell: Yes, I would like some too.
The Court: The witnesses may go, if they like; 

they are welcome to remain.



261

Plaintiffs’ Argument

Mr. Hollowell: May it please Your Honor, I think 
in the beginning I ran through the written objec­
tions and I will not do so again at this time, because 
they have been reduced to writing and the Court 
has already read them and I have made some re­
marks concerning them.

The Court: That’s right, and then you filed a pro­
posed substitute plan?

Mr. Hollowell: We have filed a proposed substitute 
plan, yes sir. Therefore, we will relate our argument 
generally to the evidence and to certain conclusions 
of law, which we think are appropriate in the matter.

No. 1, Your Honor, there has been the stipulation 
that we are entitled to some relief. There has been 
an admission of the fact that there is segregation 
in the public school system, that Plaintiffs and others 
now go to schools which are more distant from their 
residences than the schools which they now attend.

Really, the Plaintiffs or the Defendants have 
sought principally to show that they have been work­
ing in good faith to produce a plan which will in 
fact do what the Plaintiffs are asking them for, and 
that is to come up with a non-racial system in the 
public schools of this City and County.

Almost everything that was said by all of the wit­
nesses, when you take each one of them, step by step 
and remember what they said, it was principally 
geared to. try to show that “we have been trying to 
get ready over a period of the last 10 years.”

Mr. Miller testified that a committee was formed 
back in ’55, after the first implementing decision, 
that there was a subsequent committee and then later 
there was a third committee, and that each of these 
committees began to do something after some request



262

Plaintiffs’ Argument

had been made by either Negroes or white persons 
or a group of mixed persons, seeking to get the Board 
to do something; and that each time they formed a 
committee and the committee sought to do something.

They have set up the fact that during the years 
from ’55 until ’61 there were certain barriers which 
had been set up by the State, the package laws, plus 
the laws which were already on the books, the appro­
priation bill, which would cut off funds; and then 
later on there was an attack which they voluntarily 
made upon the 1872 charter, the 5th provision there­
in.

And so, they come to the Court here, “Now, we 
have acted in good faith all along, and what we want 
you to do”—in substance, this is what they appear 
to be saying, to me—.“is to just let us go as slowly 
as you possibly can; we know that we’ve got to do 
it and this plan is set up to do it in a good orderly 
fashion.” This is what they say. And that this is a 
pupil placement plan, designed to do the job effec­
tively and to comply with the order of the Court.

But when you look at it, Your Honor, it doesn’t do 
this at all. Nor is there any contemplation that it 
will be done.

Under the plan, as it has been submitted to the 
Court, they would start in September and put the 
burden on a student seeking transfer, in order to 
get out of a segregated school set-up. This is the 
only way and it is limited to the 12th grade. There 
is nothing that the Board is doing. The Board is 
providing a vehicle for him to transfer out, and we 
submit, Your Honor, that this is not what Brown 
means, this is not what Bush means, when they say



263

Plaintiffs’ Argument

that a child has a right to go to school in a desegre­
gated system.

The cases to me would seem to hold that this is 
not what they mean and I would like, if 1 might, to 
refer to what was said in Bush, Your Honor, Bush v. 
Orleans Parish School Board, with which I know 
this Court is very familiar: 308 F. 2nd 491, Fifth 
Circuit, 1962. The Court said this:

“This Court, like both Judge Wright and Judge 
Ellis”—referring to decisions in which they had been 
in the case—“condemns the Pupil Placement Act 
when, with a fanfare of trumpets, it is hailed as the 
instrument for carrying out a desegregation plan, 
while all the time the entire public knows that in fact 
it is being used to maintain segregation by allowing 
a little token desegregation. . . .

“The Act is not an adequate transitionary substi­
tute in keeping with the gradualism implicit in the 
‘deliberate speed’ concept. It is not a plan for de­
segregation at all.”

And this is what we say here. This is no plan, for 
desegregation. At the end of the period when we 
have run from the 12th grade down to the 1st grade, 
you still have to do the same thing to get out that 
you have to do in 1964-65.

The Court: Now, that’s what Bush and the Au­
gustus cases were dealing with!

Mr. Hollowell: That is correct, yes sir.
The Court: The first grader in that area, at that 

stage!
Mr. Hollowed: Right, sir. And may I say, in Au­

gustus, Your Honor, there was this statement:



264

Plaintiffs’ Argument

“There cannot be full compliance with the Su­
preme Court’s requirements to desegregate until all 
dual school districts based on race are eliminated.”

And the testimony here, Your Honor, says that 
“We are going to continue to keep the dual racial 
lines.” They say “We’re going to do whatever the 
Court says” but they aren’t doing anything to re­
move the dual racial lines. All children will be 
reassigned to the same schools that they are now 
attending, unless and until they seek to transfer out, 
unless they are coming into the school system for 
the first time.

This is as I understand the plan and, if one is 
coming into the school system for the first time and 
in the 12th grade only, not any other grade, he has 
the opportunity to apply for any school. This was 
what was said by one, but actually, in contemplation 
of the manner in which the plan would be adminis­
tered, I gleaned from the testimony that even that 
person would first have to go to one of the Negro 
high schools, and then make an application to the 
Superintendent, pursuant to the administrative plan 
of procedure, which has been promulgated and has 
been tendered into evidence here, before even he can 
go. So, that we have—•

The Court: You think the plan is a little unclear 
as to that1?

Mr. Hollowell: As to that point, there is some 
variance in the testimony, as against the plan itself, 
as I  understand it.

The Court: But as the desegregation comes down, 
that privilege would attach to each desegregated 
class, would it not!



265

Plaintiffs’ Argument

Mr. Hollowell: Not under the Plan, not under the 
Plan, sir. Under the Plan, even next year—and 
when I say next year now, Tour Honor, I ’m not re­
ferring to ’64-65 but to the subsequent year—

The Court: I see.
Mr. Hollowell: —’65-66, when the next two grades 

would become involved—any person wanting to trans­
fer into the 10th and 11th grades in that year would 
have to make application. At the same time, any 
person wanting to transfer into the 12th grade would 
still have to make an application in the school at 
which he was, presuming he had not already trans­
ferred, you see, and had been going to Ballard- 
Hudson or to Appling, would have to make the same 
application to transfer that the person who would 
be in the 12th grade as of 1964-65 would have to 
make.

So that, all we have is a transfer plan, pure and 
simple, and this is what I think the Court meant 
when it was addressing itself to “with the fanfare 
of trumpets”. There has been a lot of testimony and 
a lot of fanfare about a desegregation plan, whereas 
there is no desegregation plan at all. There is a 
transfer plan designed to maintain the same racial 
zone lines. I use the word “zone” in quotation. The 
same area school lines, if you will; and to delay a 
true process of desegregation for as long as possible 
and there would never be any under this system, 
because the only way a child can get over there is 
that he has to effect a transfer.

Now, in the 6th Circuit, Your Honor and in the 
4th Circuit, it says “Pupil Placement Plans super­
imposed upon biracial school structures have been 
similarly discarded.” This was in Jones v. School



266

Plaintiffs’ Argument

Board, City of Alexandria, at 278 F. 2nd 72, at 76, 
which was Fourth Circuit ’60 case; and Green v. 
School Board City of Roanoke, 304 F. 2nd 118, 
Fourth Circuit, which is a ’62 case.

And may I say that in Northcross (302 F. 2d 819), 
this language was used, Your Honor, and I think 
this can form the basis for a consideration in this 
case. It says:

“Minimal requirements for non-racial schools are 
geographic zoning, according to the capacity and 
facilities of the buildings and admission to a school 
according to residence as a matter of right.” This 
is from Northcross. And then it goes on and says:

“Obviously, the maintenance of a dual system of 
attendance areas, based on race, offends the consti­
tutional rights of the plaintiffs and others similarly 
situated and cannot be tolerated”, and here again, 
it cites Jones v. School Board of the City of Alex­
andria.

And then, the Court went on and concluded in this 
manner: “Negro children cannot be required to 
apply for that which they are entitled to as a matter 
of right.” In other words, they are removing the 
burden from the child. “There must be a disestab­
lishment of the zone lines and there must be some 
other criteria set up for the basis of the admission 
of these students, but minimally the school zone lines 
would have to be removed, and an individual would 
be able to attend on the basis of capacity of the 
school and of the facilities there and of proximity to 
the school. The Court says this is minimal.



267

Plaintiffs’ Argument

The Court went on to say this, Your Honor:
“Any pupil through both parents may request a 

transfer”, talking about this case, “but in the final 
analysis it is up to the school board to grant or to 
reject it.”

And that’s what we have here. Anyone can make 
the application for the transfer but in the final 
analysis, it is still up to the School Board, it’s up to 
the Superintendent, whether or not he can be trans­
ferred.

It says: “Although an appeal may be taken to the 
courts, it would be an expensive and long drawn out 
procedure with little freedom of action on the part 
of the Court. In determining request for transfer, 
the Board may apply criteria heretofore never men­
tioned.”

Now there, of course, they had a much broader 
group of criteria than what have been testified to 
here. It says, “None of these criteria are based on 
race”, and, of course, in this case none of them are 
based on race. “But in the application of them, one 
or more could always be found which could be ap­
plied to a Negro. The denial of the transfer referred 
to, the significance of the practical application of 
the transfer provisions of the law”—and we say the 
same thing here, that we don’t know to what extent 
these criteria will be brought into play. The Plan 
says that we will follow that which is shown on page 
104 of the 1963-64 catalogue, which has been made a 
part of the record here. This in supplement to the 
standards which we shall set in the Plan, and the 
Plan would seem to say that an individual must first 
—at least the evidence in the interpretation of the 
plan—says we must first look at his eligibility, and



268

Plaintiffs’ Argument

then we look at the availability; that is, how can he 
get to school? At the same time they show you that 
right now an individual who lives in Pleasant Hill 
has to go 5 miles approximately to get to school at 
Appling, when he lives within a mile of Lanier or of 
Miller; and nothing is being done to remove that, 
except giving a senior student an opportunity to 
transfer out.

Now, Your Honor, the only thing I can see that 
they have done in this case, the Defendants, as I 
said, have tried to show the Court why it should go 
slow, tried to show the Court why the Court ought 
to let this plan proceed as it has been published 
here, this transfer plan.

And I submit, Your Honor, that here is a Board 
which admittedly has had its eye glued upon the 
situation of the desegregation of the public schools 
in this City and County for the last 10 years. This 
is a Board which is a continuing board. Therefore, 
it does not have all of the changes that would be 
inherent in the average board.

This is a Board which has had on it at least two 
lawyers—I ’ll change that—two judges and two law­
yers ; so, for all intents and purposes, there has 
been a minimum of four lawyers on this Board, 
astute and able men, plus having a very able coun­
sel for the Board. So, let’s say for all intents and 
purposes there have been at least five lawyers on 
that Board, one of whom has been at a law school. 
Certainly it is not unreasonable to assume that, with 
all of the knowledge and all of the discussion that 
this Board must have had, could have had, and 
should have had, that these problems were problems 
which they were considering all of this time.



269

Plaintiffs’ Argument

I  think it is most reasonable to assume that they 
have worked upon it and that these matters have 
been dealt with almost ad infinitum; and that coming 
from 1954 and ’55 up to now does not put a board, 
for the first time now starting on a process of de­
segregation, when they even took some steps them­
selves to remove what appeared might be a barrier 
after seemingly all of the other barriers—these are 
State barriers—had been removed, still voted to not 
do anything about it. I would submit that in that 
kind of circumstance there would need to be, No. 1, 
a fast moving along with the plan; and No. 2, an 
injunction to enjoin them from continuing along 
the process that they have been pursuing.

Now, I think, Your Honor, in Watson, with which 
Your Honor, I know, is also familiar, Watson v. 
City of Memphis, 373 U. S. 526, Mr. Justice Goldberg 
made it, I believe, eminently clear, Your Honor, 
that we are not in the same kind of situation that 
we w'ere in, say back in ’54 or ’5, ’6, ’7 and ’8; and 
in the majority opinion, he said this: And I think 
it is important for the consideration of this Court 
in making its determination as to how fast is fast 
and how slow is slow, and whether or not an injunc­
tion should issue. Mr. Goldberg said this:
“ . . .  in the second Brown decision, which con­
templated the possible need of some limited delay 
in effecting total desegregation of public schools, 
must be considered . . .  in light of the significant 
fact that the governing constitutional principles no 
longer bear the imprint of newly enunciated doc­
trine.”

Not only has the doctrine been long ago enunciated, 
Your Honor, but this is a group which has had right



270

Plaintiffs’ Argument

close to it all of the time the facility for the making 
of the interpretation of these different interpreta­
tions as they have come down from the various 
courts; and it would be logical to presume that they 
did.

Then, he went on to say: “We cannot ignore the 
passage of a substantial period of time since the 
original declaration of the manifest unconstitution­
ality of racial practices such as are here challenged” 
in Watson. He said, “The repeated and numerous 
decisions giving notice of such illegality.”

And we say that they have had this notice for a 
long time, Your Honor. “ . . . and the many inter­
vening opportunities heretofore available to attain 
the equality of treatment which the Fourteenth 
Amendment commands the States to achieve.” Then, 
he said:

“These factors must inevitably and substantially 
temper the present import of such broad policy 
considerations as may have underlain, even in part, 
the form of decree ultimately framed in the Brown 
case.” And he concluded with this: He said:

“Given the extended time which has elapsed, it is 
far from clear that the mandate of the second Brown 
decision requiring that desegregation proceed with 
‘all deliberate speed’ would today be fully satisfied 
by types of plans or programs for desegregation of 
public educational facilities which eight years ago 
might have been deemed sufficient.”

Now, it is 10 years, Your Honor, be 10 in ’65. 
He said: “Brown never contemplated that the con­
cept of ‘deliberate speed’ would countenance in­
definite delay in elimination of racial barriers in 
schools.”



271

Plaintiffs’ Argument

And I think that this is the guide light, Your 
Honor.

The. Court : What, did they actually do in that 
case?

Mr. Hollowell: In this case they sent the case back, 
Your Honor, and told them, they sent it back for 
further action on the part of the trial court, the 
lower court, not inconsistent with this decision, as 
I understand i t ; and I don’t know exactly what has 
ultimately been done in this case.

It might be of interest to know, and I am sure Your 
Honor is thinking about it, what the status of the 
Atlanta School Case is.

The Court: It comes up today or tomorrow, 
doesn’t it?

Mr. Hollowell: Sir?.
The Court: It comes up today or tomorrow, I 

believe.
Mr. Hollowed: Well, actually, tomorrow is the day 

that we are supposed to have before the Court any 
additional information or evidence. Actually, the 
case was argued on the 30th or rather the 31st-— 
supposed to have been the 30th but they argued the 
Prince Edward County case on the 30th and we didn’t 
get on until the 31st,. There was something of the 
kind of thing that is existing here that took place 
in that case.

I talked to Mr. Lattimer actually even before we 
left the courtroom and I ’ve talked with him since 
we’ve been back in Atlanta on that case. Originally, 
there was still the zone lines and there was still 
the requirement .for application for transfer. How­
ever, different from this plan. In.that plan,, once the 
grade was opened, the Court ruled that you did not



272

Plaintiffs’ Argument

have to reapply for transfer within those grades, that 
you can make an initial application to attend in those 
grades that have already come under the desegrega­
tion insofar as transfer had brought it about.

We do not even have that here. And this was the 
status of the record. But then, when Mr. Lattimer 
wrote his brief—

The Court: What is the difference in making an 
application for a transfer and in making an applica­
tion for admission!

Mr. Hollowell: Well, the difference is this, that 
in one you are reassigned to the school that you 
have been going to, which school was controlled 
by the racially zoned lines, whereas once the trans­
fer plan or pupil placement plan had gone through 
that grade, a person in that grade would no longer 
have to make an application from the school to which 
he had already been going, but could actually make 
an application in the particular school that he wanted 
to attend.

The Court: Well, the plan here is to go to the 
Superintendent’s office and make that application.

Mr. Hollowell: Yes sir, but the plan also says that 
you will go to, you will be assigned to the school 
that you have been attending, all students.

The Court: Well, isn’t that just an assumption 
that he’s going to stay where he is, unless he goes to 
the Superintendent’s office and makes an applica­
tion for a change!

Mr. Hollowell: No sir—excuse me—no sir. The 
plan says this is what the situation will be. It says: 
“Pupils will register for new term at the school 
which they last attended.” This is what the plan 
says on page 5. And there is nothing in the plan or 
in the testimony to change that; nothing, sir. And



273

Plaintiffs’ Argument

this is the reason why I say this is an absolute trans­
fer plan, which makes for any desegregation only by 
virtue of the fact that an individual has accepted the 
onus which has been placed upon by the Board of 
Education and makes application to transfer—after 
once registering at the particular school that he had 
gone to the year prior thereto.

The Court: You think the registration would pre­
cede the application for transfer under this Plan?

Mr. Hollowell: Yes sir, very definitely, sir, very 
definitely.

The Court: Very well.
Mr. Hollowell: And I say that that is a little dif­

ferent from the other plan. But in the Calhoun v. 
Latimer case, when they got to the point of writing 
the brief, Mr. Latimer said in the brief, although the 
record didn’t show it, that “we are now proceeding 
on the standard of proximity” ; and then, when we 
got into court he took another step, and said that 
“This is what we are doing.” He said “Not only are 
we going on the basis of proximity, we’re going on 
the basis also of capacity.”

And so this is, when you read that the Chief Jus­
tice and other of the Associate Justices said that 
they were confused, the confusion came about by the 
record showing one thing, the brief showing another, 
and the argument showing a third. And so, the Court 
said—wed, he asked, Mr. Latimer, he said “Mr. 
Latimer”—this was the Chief Justice speaking—he 
said, “Do you have this anywhere in the record?” 
And the counsel said, “Why, yes sir.” He said, 
“Wed, now the Court is confused and I want you to 
bring us, we’ll give you fifteen (15) days to bring 
us any additional evidence, not argument”—and he 
specified “not argument but evidence.”



274

Plaintiffs’ Argument

And I might say that I have checked the minutes 
myself and I—well, I shudder just a little bit as to 
what some of the remarks are going to be by the 
Chief Justice; but I only bring this case in because 
I know that Your Honor would want to know, “Well, 
what is happening in that case”, which is also pend­
ing, and which has had a plan somewhat similar, 
which plan has been in operation for a matter of 
3 or 4 years; and the Court is now considering it.

The Court: How did—
Mr. Hollowed: I think it is a little different— 

excuse me, sir.
The Court: How did the Atlanta plan treat the 

first grade when they get down to it?
Mr. Hollowell: When we get to the first grade, 

then that is the first time that in that grade you 
would be able to apply for, directly to the first grade 
in the school that would be nearest to you, presuming 
that there is a capacity and a proximity in the 
situation.

The Court: Hid the Atlanta Plan so specify? I ’ve 
forgotten.

Mr. Hollowed: The plan made no specification 
on this at all. This came about as a matter of inter­
pretation, not as a matter of the plan actually speci­
fying it as such.

With that, Your Honor—
The Court: Wed, “interpretation”, by the Court 

or those who were administering it?
Mr. Hollowed: Ultimately an announcement to this 

effect in the process of interrogation during the 
several hearings that were held over a period of 
time. This is as it came about. There was no inter­
pretation of it within the plan, saying that when it 
gets to the first grade, this will be the order.



275

Defendants’ Responsive Argument

The Court: Of course, they haven’t got there yet.
Mr. Hollowell: They have not got there.
The Court: Are they close to it?
Mr. Hollowell: They are only at the point this 

year where the feeder system takes hold. They have 
run the gamut of the high schools and the feeder sys­
tem takes hold in furnishing all of the schools with 
students coming from the—they don’t have many 
junior highs, mostly it’s 8 through 12 that constitutes 
a high school there, as distinguished from having 
maybe 7, 8 and 9th grades being junior high schools.

I believe, sir, with that we would conclude, with 
the respectful request that this plan not be accepted, 
that the injunction issue, and that this Board be 
ordered to make a real compliance with the prayers 
of the Plaintiffs and the order which has already 
been entered by this Court. Thank you.

The Court: Let me check two citations. You men­
tioned a Fourth Circuit case and a Sixth, I think, 
278 F. 2nd 72.

Mr. Jones: 76,1 believe,
Mr. Hollowell: 278 F. 2nd 72, at page 76.
The Court: And the other one is 304 F. 2nd 118?
Mr. Hollowell: Yes sir. That’s Fourth Circuit, 

1962, That’s Green v. School Board of City of Roa­
noke.

The Court: All right, Mr. Jones, you have your 
option; you have 30 minutes or you may—

Mr. Jones: I will exercise the option, if Your 
Honor please, of proceeding as we previously sug­
gested and presenting a brief by next Monday.

I would like at this time merely to correct one 
element of confusion, which I think exists and that 
I might be helpful in. I t’s difficult to use language 
which means the same thing to everybody. As to how



276

Defendants’ Responsive Argument

counsel interprets certain portions of our plan, I ’m 
unable to say, but the facts are that this question of 
registering at a school means that in September of 
1964, when the school opens, the student will go to 
the same school which he previously attended to then 
register and commence his school year, unless he has 
previously filed a transfer request and which has 
been acted upon.

There’s some confusion, of course, by using the 
term “registration” but certainly, it was never at any 
time contemplated that, before a person could go to 
the Superintendent’s office, he had to register for the 
following year at his old school and then come back to 
the Superintendent, but it would be simply a single 
process.

The Court: And how about a newcomer who moves 
into town ?

Mr. Jones: A newcomer, the plan was intended to 
state, and I think does state, though I may be mis­
taken, but it certainly was intended to state that 
any person entering the school, the system, in the 
12th grade, for the first time, can choose his school, 
subject to the tests and the factors. He does not 
have to register anywhere except at the school which 
he chooses to register at.

The Court: All right, how about if he comes in 
during the year 1965-66, would that apply to the 
11th grade?

Mr. Jones: That would apply to the 10th and 11th 
grades at that time and also to the 12th.

The Court: That’s right.
Mr. Jones: However broad it may be as applied 

to the 12th, it continues that broad all the time there­
after and picks up the other grades later on.



277

Defendants’ Responsive Argument

I just didn’t want to leave the Court or counsel 
under any confusion as to what we were trying to 
do.

The Court: That’s the way I construed it.
Mr. Jones: And if we haven’t properly expressed, 

obviously, we would like to make it a proper expres­
sion.

The Court: And I imagine you will deal with 
the Bush ease and the Augustus cases in your brief?

Mr. Jones: Yes sir, and with several others.
The Court: All right. That leaves us then— Now, 

Mr. Hollow ell, you may file or not file a brief by 
Monday, if you like; but then the record will be ready 
by Monday.

Mr. Hollowell: Yes sir.
The Court: Mr. Jones’ brief will be in by Monday, 

and any reply brief be in by the following Thursday.
Mr. Hollowell: Thank you, sir.
The Court: I wish to congratulate you gentlemen 

upon the high plane, if I may use that word, upon 
which you have prepared and presented this im­
portant case.

Mr. Jones: Thank you, sir.

H earing R ecessed : 12:35 PM— A pril  14, 1963

Foregoing transcript certified to be true and correct rec­
ord of proceedings in above captioned ease.
This April 17, 1964
/s /  (Signature Illegible)

Official IT. S. Court Reporter 
Middle District of Georgia

(Seal)



278

O pin ion  and  O rd er o f A pril 2 7 , 1 9 6 4

[ captiost om itted]

B ootle, District Judge:
For determination now is the question whether the plan 

of desegregation submitted by the Board of Public Educa­
tion and Orphanage for Bibb County is legally sufficient 
and acceptable.

In August, 1963, plaintiffs filed their petition on behalf 
of themselves and others similarly situated against the 
Board, its individual members, and its superintendent. By 
amendment, all defendants, except the Board, were elimi­
nated. The complaint alleges, among other things, that the 
Board has been operating the public schools of Bibb County, 
Georgia on a completely segregated basis, including the 
assignment of pupils, teachers, principals, and other pro­
fessional personnel, as well as in the use of bus transporta­
tion and the conduct of curricula and extra-curricular activi­
ties and school programs. The complaint further alleges 
that all budgets and other funds are appropriated and 
expended by defendant separately for Negro and white 
schools. Plaintiffs pray that defendant be enjoined from:

“(a) continuing to operate a dual school system in 
Bibb County, Georgia, based wholly upon the race and 
color of the children attending school in Bibb County;

“(b) continuing to assign children to school in Bibb 
County on the basis of race and color;

“ (c) continuing to assign teachers, principals, super­
visors, and other professional school personnel to the 
schools of Bibb County on the basis of race and color 
of the personnel to be assigned and the race and color



279

Opinion and Order of April 27, 1964

of the children attending the particular school to which 
assignment is made;

“ (d) continuing to designate certain schools as Negro 
schools and white schools;

“ (e) continuing to appropriate funds, approve curricu­
lar and extra-curricular activities and other school 
programs which are limited to attendance on the basis 
of race or discriminatory on the basis of race;

“ (f) continuing to construct schools which are to be 
limited to attendance by one or the other racial group;

“ (g) making any other distinction based wholly upon 
race and color in the operation of the public school sys­
tem of Bibb County.”

In the alternative, plaintiffs pray,
“that this court direct defendants to submit a complete 
plan, within a period of time to be determined by this 
Court, for the reorganization of the entire school sys­
tem of Bibb County, Georgia, into a unitary non-racial 
system which shall include a plan for reassignment of 
all children presently attending the public schools of 
Bibb County on a non-racial basis and which will pro­
vide for the future assignment of children to school on 
a non-racial basis, the assignment of teachers, princi­
pals, supervisors and other professional school per­
sonnel on a non-racial basis, the elimination of racial 
designations as to schools, the elimination of all racial 
designation in the budgets, appropriations for school 
expenditures, and all plans for the construction of 
schools, and the elimination of racial restrictions on 
certain curricular and extra-curricular school activities,



280

Opinion and Order of April 27, 1964

and the elimination of any other racial distinction in 
the operation of the school system in Bibb County 
which is based wholly upon race and color.”

By a consent pre-trial order the defendant has admitted 
that plaintiffs, as representatives of the class of minor 
Negro children in whose behalf they sue, are entitled in this 
proceeding to such order of this court as will adequately 
protect the rights, privileges and immunities of said class, 
taking into account the administrative and other problems 
of the Board incident to the granting of such protection, 
and by said order plaintiffs recognize that the Board should 
be allowed a reasonable period of time in bringing about 
the elimination of discrimination within the equal pro­
tection mandates of the Constitution.

The said pre-trial order directed the Board to make a 
prompt and reasonable start toward the effectuation of 
the transition to a racially non-discriminatory school sys­
tem, and to present to the court a complete plan adopted 
by the Board designed to bring about full compliance with 
said order which plan should provide for a prompt and 
reasonable transition to a racially non-discriminatory 
school system. The Board’s plan was submitted on sched­
ule, and will be later examined after considering generally 
the Bibb County School System and some of the obstacles 
which have delayed desegregation in Bibb County.

The Board operates the public school system throughout 
the entire area of Bibb County with its population of ap­
proximately 140,000. There is no other public school system 
for any portion of the County. The Board is self-perpetuat­
ing in that it has power to fill vacancies in the Board in 
whatever manner caused. It was created by a special act 
of the Legislature of Georgia approved August 23, 1872.



281

O pin ion  and O rder o f A p r i l  27, 1964

It consists of twelve members, plus four ex-officio mem­
bers, namely, the two Superior Court Judges resident in 
the County, the Ordinary of the County, and the Mayor 
of the City of Macon. These members serve without finan­
cial remuneration,1 and through the years the Board has 
attracted to its membership only outstanding citizens in 
the community, men who are among the leaders in business, 
civic, public and cultural affairs. The Board has succeeded 
in its determined and dedicated efforts to provide for all 
of the children of the County, regardless of race or color, 
the best education possible.

The system has a student enrollment of approximately 
37,000, about 63% or 23,000 white and 37% or 13,000 Negro. 
The high school enrollment is about 8,000 for whites, and
4,000 for Negroes, leaving about 15,000 whites and 9,000 
Negroes in the primary and elementary grades. Since 
1924, except for Dudley-Hughes High School, white high 
school students have been segregated according to sex. 
There are two senior high schools for white boys, Lanier 
and Willingham, and two senior high schools for white 
girls, Miller and McEvoy. A fifth high school, Dudley- 
Hughes, is for both white boys and white girls. Dudley- 
Hughes is emphasized primarily, but not exclusively, for 
those students who do not contemplate going to college. 
It also has an adult vocational program which is already 
admitting Negroes. There are three junior high schools 
for whites, Lanier Junior and Willingham Junior for boys, 
and Miller Junior for girls. Neither McEvoy nor Dudley- 
Hughes is separated as to junior and senior divisions, but, 
of course, have all of the grades—8, 9, 10, 11 and 12.

For the Negroes there are two senior high schools, 
Ballard-Hudson Senior and Appling, and one junior high

1 The Board commendably did not prove or mention this fact 
but it is a fact of common knowledge.



282

Opinion and Order o f April 27, 1964

school, Ballard-Hudson Junior. Like McEvoy and Dudley- 
Hughes, Appling is not separated as to junior and senior 
divisions, having all grades—8 through 12, as a single 
organizational school system.

For schools heretofore classified as white a new junior 
high school is being planned for McEvoy and a new junior 
high school is being planned for Willingham, it being con­
templated that the present Willingham Junior facilities 
will become a part of the present Willingham Senior. In 
the early construction stage are two new high schools on 
the Upper River Road to relieve the overcrowded condi­
tions at Lanier Senior and Miller Senior.

For schools heretofore classified as Negro a contract has 
been let for a new Ballard-Hudson, 40 room junior high 
school, it being contemplated that the present Ballard- 
Hudson Junior facilities, as at Willingham, will become a 
part of the present Ballard-Hudson Senior High School. 
In the planning stages is a new junior high school for 
Appling of 25 to 30 classrooms.

All of the schools are terribly overcrowded, the white 
schools being just as overcrowded as are the Negro schools.

The Board’s charter enjoined upon it two duties with re­
spect to race. Section 2 conferred upon it the power to 
establish schools “provided . . . that said schools shall be 
so established as to extend impartially the benefits of the 
same to white and colored children.” That mandate has 
been observed. The facilities and equipment of Negro 
schools are at least equal to, and, in some instances, better 
than, the facilities and equipment of the white schools. Nor 
is there any difference in application of the teachers’ rate 
of pay as between the teachers in the Negro and white 
schools. Actually, the average Negro teacher is com-



283

O pin ion  and  O rder o f  A p r i l  27, 1964

pensated in greater amount than the average white teacher. 
This results from their superior accreditation and longer 
service.

The other mandate of the Board’s charter is its Section 
5, which reads as follows:

“That the said Board shall establish distinct and sepa­
rate schools and orphan homes for white and colored 
children, and shall not, in any event, place children of 
different colors in the same school or orphan home.”

The Board has also complied with that mandate. This 
charter provision accounts to some extent for the fact that 
the process of desegregation is just beginning in the schools 
of Bibb County. Of course, prior to the Brown decision of 
1954 no one ever questioned the legality or binding effect 
of this charter provision. The statutes of the State of 
Georgia were in accord therewith. On December 9, 1954, 
after the first decision in Brown, .May 17, 1954, and before 
the implementing Brown decision of May 31, 1955, the 
Board received a petition signed by 42 persons as parents 
of Negro children entitled to attend Bibb County schools 
calling attention to the Brown decision, and calling upon 
the Board to take immediate steps to reorganize the public 
■schools in accordance therewith and tendering the services 
of the Macon branch of the N. A. A. C. P. in the implementa­
tion of a plan of desegregation. The Board considered that 
petition as premature since it was then known that an 
implementing decision of the Court was to follow. On 
August 25, 1955, after the implementing decision, the Board 
received a second petition signed by 13 parents suggest­
ing that the Board was duty bound to take immediate con­
crete steps leading to early elimination of segregation and 
on September 6, 1955, the Board received a letter from



284

O pin ion  and  O rd er o f  A p r i l  27, 1964

some parents requesting an answer in the nature of a com­
mitment as to the Board’s concern with the matters con­
tained in the letter and in said petition. The Board there­
upon appointed a committee and, on October 13, 1955, 
received a report from that committee, in part, as follows:

“That court decision specifically states that as to 
the ‘varied local school problems, school authorities 
have the primary responsibility for elucidating, as­
sessing and solving these problems.’ It further pro­
vides that consideration shall be given to ‘problems 
related to administration, arising from the physical 
condition of the school plant, the school transportation 
system, personnel # * and revision of local laws and
regulations which may be necessary.’

“Of course, for some months (and prior to the filing 
of any petition) the members of this Board have con­
cerned themselves over the situation referred to, and 
at the present time this committee is charged with the 
specific task of investigation and report; but in our 
considered judgment any commitment by this Board 
at this time, or at any time before completion of such 
study of the overall situation as this Board may find 
necessary, would be inappropriate, unwise and en­
tirely out of harmony with the intent of the Supreme 
Court decision.

“This being the first meeting of the Board since 
the appointment of this committee, we wish to report 
at this time that it is the opinion of the committee 
that to properly fulfill the assignment given it by the 
Board and to cover all of the complexities and ramifica­
tions involved will require an amount of time, effort 
and study, the extent of which we cannot presently 
appraise.



285

O pin ion  and O rder o f A p r i l  27, 1964

“Before this committee proceeds further toward the 
performance of the task assigned, we felt it proper to 
submit this preliminary report.”

The Supreme Court, in the second Brown decision, ac­
curately foresaw that “to effectuate this interest [of Negro 
children] may call for elimination of a variety of obstacles 
in making the transition to school systems operated in ac­
cordance with the constitutional principles set forth in our 
May 17, 1954 decision” and that among these obstacles was 
the “revision of local laws and regulations which may be 
necessary in solving the foregoing problems.” Those prob­
lems were particularly acute in Georgia. Several Georgia 
statutes had to be revised or repealed before desegrega­
tion could be satisfactorily accomplished. As the statutes 
were statewide, the problems were statewide. The show­
down came in Atlanta. There, in the case of Calhoun v. 
Members of Board of Education, City of Atlanta, in Judge 
Hooper’s order of June 16, 1959, 4 Race Relations Re­
porter, No. 3, pp. 576, 580, it was provided that the plan 
to be submitted by the Board of Education might be sub­
mitted “subject to approval thereof by the Georgia Legis­
lature” and that the court “would allow sufficient time for 
the Georgia Legislature to act upon the same.” In the 
same case, in the order dated December 30, 1959, the court 
called attention to the existence of certain Georgia statutes 
which would mean that the mixing of races in Georgia 
schools would mean that all financial aid from the State 
would be cut off, adding that for the court to order the 
Atlanta Public Schools to desegregate at that time would 
be equivalent to ordering them to close. The court then 
expressed the feeling that the people of Georgia, through 
their chosen representatives in the Legislature, should be 
allowed to make the important decision of whether they



286

Opinion and Order of April 27, 1964

■would prefer the closing of their schools on one hand, 
to the gradual desegregation on the other hand. 5 Race 
Relations Reporter, No. 1, page 56 at 64. The Legislature 
met in January, I960; adjourned without enacting any laws 
permitting such plan to be put into effect but adopted a 
resolution appointing a committee to study the entire 
question and to file a report on or before May 1, 1960. The 
Legislature repealed the interfering legislation in early 
1961, and the Atlanta plan became effective May 1, 1961 
for the school term beginning in September, 1961.

Meanwhile, efforts were being made by, and on behalf of, 
certain Negro citizens in Macon to induce the defendant 
Board to proceed with desegregation. On February 23, 
1961, the Macon Council of Human Relations, an inter­
racial organization, wrote the President of the Board, and 
apparently to other public officials generally, offering its 
assistance in the period of transition. The President of 
the Board acknowledged the letter, saying: “This will be 
referred to the proper committee for study and if we need 
your help we will call on you.” The Board appointed a 
special committee on March 17, 1961, with Mr. Wallace 
Miller, Jr. as Chairman. That committee concluded that 
the President’s acknowledgment of the letter was sufficient. 
On March 8, 1963, 7 Negro citizens by letter requested the 
privilege of appearing before the Board for the purpose of 
airing certain grievances pertaining to public education 
in Macon and Bibb County. The President replied by let­
ter of March 12th advising that the agenda for the up­
coming meeting of March 14th was already set, but that if 
they desired to appear the business would be rearranged 
so as to allow them five minutes, but suggested further the 
procedure of presenting the matters in writing so that the 
matter could be assigned to the proper committee for recom-



287

O pin ion  and O rder o f A p r i l  27, 1964

mendation to the Board. At the meeting on March 14th, 
several of the 7 persons who had signed the letter appeared 
and their spokesman, Mr. William P. Randall, made a brief 
statement to the effect that they had hoped they might be 
able to discuss some of the reactions in the Negro com­
munity relative to the present status of the school system. 
He expressed his appreciation of the suggestion that they 
reduce the matter to writing for referral to a proper com­
mittee and respectfully reminded the Board that they had 
tried that procedure nine years ago when a committee had 
been appointed, which committee they feared had been the 
graveyard for the petition, as they had heard nothing 
from the committee to that moment. He suggested also 
that to have delayed their appearance until the next meet­
ing of the Board might have seriously restricted their ef­
forts to have this matter settled by the next September 
term of school. This letter of March 8th had been referred 
to Mr. Miller’s committee, and, on March 14th, the Presi­
dent of the Board appointed the Rules and Regulations 
Committee, headed by Mr. William A. Fielding, to serve 
jointly with Mr. Miller’s committee. Since the hearing- 
before the Board was brief, these two committees suggested 
and arranged a further hearing with Mr. Randall’s group 
which was held on April 8, 1963, when Mr. Randall and five 
or six others met with, the members of the two committees. 
The proceedings of that meeting were preserved by a tape 
recording, but were not introduced in evidence.

The committees of the Board, and particularly the several 
lawyer members thereof, saw that even with the Georgia 
statutes repealed and out of the way there remained Sec­
tion 5 of the defendant’s charter. Although it was be­
coming more and more obvious that no state could order 
the operation of schools with enforced racial segregation



288

Opinion mid Order o f  April 27, 1964

therein, the question remained whether this particular 
Board was authorized by its charter to operate any school 
system unless it complied with all of the terms of its 
charter, including Section 5. In other words, when the 
Brown decision and its progeny invalidated Section 5 did 
the defendant Board have any charter left, or would some 
other organization have to take over the operation of the 
Bibb County Schools. Mr. Miller’s special committee re­
quested of the Board’s counsel a legal opinion on this 
question. On April 13, 1963, a four-page opinion was re­
ceived, stating in part as follows:

“The gravity of the question cannot be overstated. 
If the Board acts in violation of Section 5, either volun­
tarily or under federal court order, by placing white 
and colored children in the same school it might there­
by forfeit its charter, completely destroy itself, and 
leave no other local state agency to act in its place, 
thus disrupting the whole .school system in Bibb County. 
This could follow whether the Board acts voluntarily 
or under the decree of a federal court. That is, regard­
less of the construction placed on the charter by a 
federal court the state would not thereby be deprived 
of its right to forfeit or revoke the charter.

“In addition to the effect on the Board’s charter, 
possibly voiding its powers to receive and expend 
school funds, and affecting its titles, the individual 
members of the Board, and the Board’s agents and 
employees, would find themselves acting at their in­
dividual perils.”

Thereafter, on April 24, 1963, the Board resolved to peti­
tion the Superior Court of Bibb County, Georgia for a de­
claratory judgment on the questions involved. The suit was



289

Opinion and Order of April 27, 1964

filed and was prosecuted diligently and resulted in a de­
claratory judgment rendered in July, 1963, in effect de­
claring Section 5 of the charter invalid, and leaving all of 
the remainder of the charter intact. Indicative of the pur­
pose of the filing of the suit for declaratory judgment is 
the following paragraph from the brief of the Board’s 
counsel in support of that suit.

“We wish to make it clear that the Bibb County 
Board of Education has no desire to shirk or evade 
or to surrender either its corporate responsibilities 
or its corporate powers. It is the objective of this 
petition to obtain a decision by this court under which 
plaintiff can lawfully under its charter provide a sys­
tem of public schools for both white and colored chil­
dren in Bibb County notwithstanding a part thereof 
may be invalid which requires that separate and dis­
tinct schools shall be provided for the different races.”

After the declaratory judgment was obtained the two 
committees recommended to the Board a three and one-half 
page resolution which wTa.s adopted on July 30, 1963 by the 
Board by the vote of a majority of its members, the vote 
not being unanimous. The resolution records the views 
of a majority of the Board members to the following effect: 
the wise judgment of the founders of the Board in direct­
ing separate schools was sound in 1872 and is sound today; 
the Supreme Court has declared that forced separation be­
cause of race in public schools is unconstitutional, but no 
court has ruled that any school system operated voluntarily 
on a basis of separation of the races is unconstitutional, un­
desirable or repugnant to any principle or rule of law, 
society or human relations; the Board realizes that all 
members of the federal judicial system are required by 
law and precedent to adhere to the decisions of the Supreme



290

Opinion and Order of April 27, 1964

Court; the Supreme Court has granted district courts lati­
tude in enforcing its judgments, if and when the matter is 
submitted to the district courts; the district courts are to 
determine what type operation of a public school system 
meets the requirements of the Supreme Court decisions 
under the peculiar circumstances of each particular case; 
if the Board were to make such a determination without 
the sanction and approval of the courts its validity and 
lasting effect would be as uncertain as the weather; without 
court sanction and approval any action taken by the Board 
would have no assurance of being effective tomorrow. The 
resolution then concluded with these four paragraphs:

We reaffirm our sincere and deep conviction that 
integration of the races in the public schools of Bibb 
County will be detrimental to both the colored and 
white races, and the entire county. The responsibility 
for and consequences of any such action rests upon 
others than this Board.

“We feel that the vast majority of both our colored 
and white citizens of Bibb County are satisfied with the 
present system of operation of our schools, and that it 
would be contrary to the wishes of such vast majority 
for this Board to make any change in its operation.

We also feel that the public of Bibb County is en­
titled to know the position of its Board of Education in 
this matter.

“ T h e r e e o r e , b e  i t  r e s o l v e d  by the Board of Public 
Education and Orphanage for Bibb County that this 
Board continue its present system of operating its 
schools.”

The Board knew, on July 30, 1963, when the above men­
tioned resolution was adopted that a suit for desegregation



291

O pin ion  and O rder o f  A p r i l  27, 1964

was in the offing. It came probably a little later than the 
Board expected, on August 14, 1963.

The majority of the Board are not to be condemned for 
their frankness. Our law does not seek to control men’s 
thinking absent intention on their part to do that which is 
unlawful. Independence of thought is encouraged, and free­
dom of speech is guaranteed.

For the purposes of this case it is sufficient that all of 
the members of the Board recognize that they are bound 
by the law and are willing to follow it in good faith, though 
some of them, as they have a right to do, question its wis­
dom. This recognition and this willingness on their part 
are implicit in the above summarized resolution, and are 
explicit in the testimony of the Board’s President, Vice- 
President, Committee Chairman, Superintendent and his 
Special Assistant, all of whom testified in this case. They 
are explicit also in the pleadings in this case and in the 
briefs and arguments filed by the Board’s counsel.

Coming now to the plan, we find that its preface of three 
and one-half pages recites, among other things, that the 
authority to designate the school or schools to be attended 
is vested in the Superintendent and that he is generally 
guided by recognized residential areas in placing children 
in grammar schools, and children progressing from a gram­
mar school to a high school are generally placed in high 
school on the basis of the grammar school from which they 
graduated and that “it is the eventual plan of the Board 
to establish a single unitary system of residential areas 
for school placement, without distinction as to race, but 
[that] this cannot be accomplished immediately” ; that in 
its carefully considered opinion any plan submitted should 
be implemented gradually over a reasonable period of time 
and in progressive steps, starting at the 12th grade and 
thereafter extending at successive intervals to the 1st grade,



292

O pin ion  and  O rd er o f A p r i l  27, 1964

eventually including the entire system; that the vocational 
schools should be included and dealt with in the plan and 
that it is a part of the proposed plan that no applicant 
will be denied admission in the future to any vocational 
program under the control of the Board, or transfer from 
one program to another, solely because or his or her race.

The plan, itself, consists of six paragraphs. Paragraph 
(1) leaves vested in the Superintendent the duty of desig­
nating schools to be attended. Paragraph (2) makes no 
immediate change in the identification of residential areas, 
but provides that procedures presently in effect will, from 
time to time, be reviewed and revised to provide more 
adequate opportunity for pupils or parents to express 
preferences whether upon entering the system for the first 
time or in respect to transfers and that such procedures 
will provide full implementation of the plan as set forth 
in paragraphs (4) and (6), and will be applied without dis­
tinction or discrimination because of race. Paragraph (3) 
provides that in acting upon pupil requests for original 
assignment or for transfers the Superintendent will take 
into account the factors “which presently guide him in the 
placement of pupils and those which are in accordance with 
sound and generally observed practices in the field of public 
school education throughout the country, with a view to the 
establishment, maintenance and operation of a public school 
system in Bibb County of the highest attainable caliber and 
quality for the benefit of all of the children of the county, 
and with a view toward the eventual elimination of com­
pulsory racial segregation in all grades within the system.” 
Paragraph (4) provides that the Board will establish a 
period beginning at a date to be announced following the 
date of the order approving this plan, (at the hearing coun­
sel for the Board expressed the hope that such beginning 
date may be May 1,1964), and ending thirty days thereafter



293

O pin ion  and  O rder o f  A p r i l  27, 1964

as the period in which written applications will be received 
for transfers and reassignments from one school in the 
system to the 12th grade of another school in the system 
for the school year 1964-65, and will prepare and supply 
written forms for that purpose, together with a statement 
of the rules of procedure applicable thereto; that said forms 
and rules will set forth the information required to be fur­
nished with such applications and the time within which 
such applications will be evaluated and either approved 
or disapproved by the Superintendent ; that they will pro­
vide for written notice of the Superintendent’s action and 
will inform the applicant with respect to his or her rights 
to administrative review or appeal; that all such applica­
tions will be processed and acted upon without distinction 
based solely on race; and that pupils first entering the 
system in the 1964-65 school year in the 12th grade will be 
afforded without distinction based solely on race the oppor­
tunity to request original assignment to the school of their 
choice in accordance with presently established procedure. 
At the hearing of this case counsel for the Board presented 
the written forms and statement of rules and procedure 
above mentioned consisting of 12 pages in the aggregate, 
and these forms and rules show that they were prepared 
with care and are consistent with the avowed purpose of 
accomplishing desegregation in accordance with Constitu­
tional requirements. Paragraph (5) provides for the estab­
lishment by the Board of a system committee composed of 
6 to 8 principals or other teaching or administrative per­
sonnel of the system, to consist of an equal number of white 
and Negro members as a recommendatory committee with 
which the Superintendent or other administrative personnel 
designated by the Superintendent will discuss and consider 
proposals, suggestions, complaints and other matters in­
volving the plan. Paragraph (6) is as follows: “This plan 
will be applied without distinction based on race in all 12th



294

Opinion and Order o f April 27, 1964

grades in the system for the school year 1964-65. It will 
thereafter be similarly applied in all 11th and 10th grades 
for 1965-66, all 9th grades for 1966-67, all 8th grades for 
1967-68, all 7th grades for 1968-69, all 6th and 5th grades 
for 1969-70, all 4th grades for 1970-71, all 3rd and 2nd 
grades for 1971-72, and all 1st grades for 1972-73; being 
or becoming applicable without distinction on race for all 
grades in the system within nine school years beginning 
with the year 1964-65.”

The plaintiffs have several objections to the plan, the 
chief objections, perhaps, being (1) that “the plan purports 
to permit 8 years for the total desegregation” and that this 
length of time “is entirely inconsistent with reason or neces­
sity, and is therefore objectionable”, and (2) that it is only 
a transfer plan.

The first objection based upon the timing element is 
untenable. The Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit in the
case of Miller v. Barnes, -----  F. 2d ----- , February 27,
1964 wrote as follows:

“Plans of desegregation at the rate of a grade a 
year have not been nullified. The plan to be adopted 
rests largely in the discretion of the trial court who 
is familiar with local problems and conditions. Not 
only are the ambitions and desires of the plaintiffs in 
a particular action to be considered, but the welfare of 
all students, Negro and White, is fundamental to a 
consideration of any proposed plan.”

Of course, the present plan calls for faster action than a 
grade a year. It desegregates two grades in the year 1965- 
66, two in the year 1969-70, and two in the year 1971-72. In 
the recent case of Calhoun v. Latimer, 321 F. 2d 302, 308 
(5th Cir. June 17, 1963), the court said:



295

O pin ion  and O rder o f A p r i l  27, 1964

“Gradualism in desegregation, if not the usual, is at 
least an accepted mode with the emphasis on getting 
the job of transition done.”

The objection that it is only a transfer plan overlooks 
the plan’s ultimate objective and result. Of significance 
here are excerpts from the brief of the Board’s counsel filed 
in this case. These excerpts elucidate the plan. They are 
as follows:

“As a ‘transition’ plan it is a transfer plan. In its 
ultimate goal it ceases to be a transition plan. We think 
this is well illustrated by a consideration of the precise 
questions which were dealt with in Bush (308 F. 2d 
491), as we will later point out.

“If there is any doubt we want to make the following 
things clear. In the initial year students now attending 
and registered in the 11th grade of any higii scnooi m 
the system will be afforded the right and ample oppor­
tunity immediately, while they are still registered in 
the 11th grade, to transfer for the 1964-65 school year 
to the 12th grade of another high school. Having so 
transferred they will then register in September oi 
1964 in the school to which they have been transferred. 
If prior to September, 1964, they have not transferred 
to another school they will register in the school in 
which they previously attended. Even then, under the 
Board’s rules at page 104 of its Annual Report, but 
within the limitations of those rules, a student may 
request transfer during the 1964-65 year. Any student 
who enters the school system for the first time in or 
for the 12th grade may choose the school which he 
wishes to attend and will register initially at that 
school. All of this is entirely without distinction based



296

O-pinion and O rder o f A p r i l  27, 1964

on race. As is true of any student in the system this 
is subject to question of eligibility, availability of the 
facility, and the capacity of the school at which the 
student registers. In succeeding years as the plan be­
comes applicable to additional grades what we have 
said will continue to apply to the grade or grades 
already brought within the plan as well as to the addi­
tional grade or grades to be brought within the plan 
that year. No student entering the system for the first 
time in any grade to which the plan has become or is 
then to become effective will be required to register at 
any school designated on the basis of race.

“Furthermore, when the plan becomes effective in the 
first grade, applicable to students entering the system 
in that grade, there is complete freedom of choice on 
the part of the student to select the school which he 
wishes to attend. This also will be subject to non- 
discriminatory factors based on eligibility, availability 
and capacity. Thereafter the plan will continue to be 
a transfer plan as to students who have previously 
entered the system and who have previously enrolled 
in grades higher than the first grade. However, it will 
no longer be a transfer plan as to the first grade, or 
as to the students who enter the first grade under the 
plan and as the first grade progresses through the 
system it will cease to be a transfer plan as to all 
students subsequently enrolling in the system.”

We find and conclude that the plan is legally sufficient 
and acceptable. And so are the implementing forms and 
documents filed in connection therewith. The Board is 
hereby authorized and ordered to place said plan as so 
implemented into operation forthwith.

The court makes no ruling at this time on the matter of 
the assignment of teachers, principals, supervisors, or other



O pin ion  and O rder o f  A p r i l  27, 1964

professional school personnel. Questions raised by both 
sides as to that matter can be more appropriately con­
sidered by the Board and by the court if necessary at some 
future date. Similar deferment of consideration of this 
particular facet of the problem seems to have occurred in 
all but one of the reported cases.

The plaintiffs do not need an injunction. They already 
have more than that. The solemn promises of the members 
of this stable Board made to this court through their coun­
sel and through the testimony of their officers are stronger 
than an injunction. The Board describes its role in this case 
not as that of a litigant but rather as that of a petitioner 
or supplicant to the court for guidance and direction in a 
delicate and difficult field. It seeks approval of this plan 
which it regards as one which under all of the circum­
stances is reasonably designed to recognize and afford to 
the plaintiffs, and to the class represented by them, the 
rights to which they are entitled, and at the same time to 
accomplish the Board’s primary objective of providing the 
highest possible quality of public education to all the chil­
dren of the County, Negro and white, alike. This being 
the Board’s attitude, and this its aim, no injunction is neces­
sary. Accordingly, the prayers for an injunction are denied. 
Of course, in the unlikely event that this court should be 
mistaken as to the strength and efficacy of these assurances, 
such fact would become apparent, and appropriate steps 
could be promptly taken, as this court is retaining juris­
diction of this entire case for such further proceedings and 
the entry of such further order or orders as in its judgment 
may become necessary or appropriate.

This memorandum is intended to comply with the require­
ments of F. R,. Civ. P. 52.

This 27th day of April, 1964.
/ s /  W . A. B ootle 

United States District Judge



Notice o f Appeal

[ c a p t io n  o m i t t e d ]

Notice is hereby given that Shirley Bivins, James Bivins, 
Larry Bivins and Franklin Bivins, minors, by Hester L. 
Bivins, their mother and next friend, and Solomon Bouie, 
Glory Ann Bouie, and Dorothy Mae Bouie, minors, by Rev. 
Willie R. Bouie, their father and next friend, and Helen 
Goodrum, Lela Goodrum, Thomas Goodrum, John Goodrum 
and Jo Ann Goodrum, minors, by Thomas Goodrum, their 
father and next friend, and Patricia Ann Harper, minor, 
by Abe Harper, her father and next friend, and Charlie 
Bell Williams, Sara Jeanette Williams and Tommie Lee 
Williams, minors, by Mrs. Yada D. Harris, their mother 
and next friend, and Alice Marie Hart, minor, by Mrs. Willie 
Mae Hart, her mother and next friend, Paul Hill, Jr., Clyne 
Hill, Bernestine Hill and Lucy Mae Hudson, minors, by 
Inez Hill, their mother and next friend, and Carolyn Hol- 
ston, Melvin Holston, Lyre Holston, Maxine Holston, and 
Earnestine Holston, minors, by Henry Holston, their father 
and next friend, and Solomon Hughes, III, minor by Solo­
mon Hughes, Jr., his father and next friend, and Billy Joe 
Lewis, Harold Martin Lewis, Yvonne Dianne Lewis, Ray 
Charles Lewis and Estella Marie Lewis, minors by Mr. Ray 
Lewis, their father and next friend, and Merrit Johnson, 
Jr., and Pamela Sue Johnson, minors, by Merrit Johnson, 
their father and next friend, and Willie Howard, Jr., 
Delores Howard, and Randolph Howard, minors, by Ger­
trude Howard, their mother and next friend, and Delmarie 
McDow, minor, by Wyatt J. McDow, her father and next 
friend, and Lois Farmer, Larry Stewart, Maxine Stewart, 
Joe L. Stewart and Lolita Rutland, minors, by Dorothea 
Stewart, their mother and next friend, plaintiffs above 
named, hereby appeal to the United States Court of Appeals



299

Notice of Appeal

for the Fifth Circuit, from the final order and judgment of 
the Honorable W. A. Bootle, United States District Judge, 
for the Middle District of Georgia, Macon Division, approv­
ing the defendant’s “Pupil Placement Plan,” said order 
being dated and entered in this action on April 27, 1964 and 
received by plaintiffs’ counsel April 28, 1964.

This 25th day of May, 1964.

[ s ig n a t u r e s  o m it t e d ]



38

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