Lankford v. Schmidt Transcript of Proceedings Vol. 2
Public Court Documents
January 15, 1965
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Lankford v. Schmidt Transcript of Proceedings Vol. 2, 1965. 292a9b54-ba9a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/44ba80b7-6a6b-460c-8e19-e75e16cb0c3c/lankford-v-schmidt-transcript-of-proceedings-vol-2. Accessed July 30, 2025.
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF MARYLAND
SAMUEL JAMES LANKFORD, et al. :
vs. : Civil No. 16080
BERNARD j, SCHMIDT > ^ commissioner
of Police of Baltimore City. :
January 15, 1965
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Volume 3.
(Page 129 to page 275 )
Francis T. Owens
Official Reporter
514 Post Office Bldg.
Baltimore 2, Maryland
129
i
•) I N D E X
:{ Witness Direct Cro&a Redirect Reeroas
4 Lucinu& ?• Wallace ijx 1 *2 . 149
f5 nartna h, ius»,on w 160 163 16 5
yL Barbara Floyd 167 W 176 177
177
(
Harrletta Wallace 179 186 187 19 0
George J. Floyd 19 2 197 205 206
206 207
10 Rita Mies 207
11 Baggie Bhepperb 213 227
12 Florence Snowden 235 247
18 Elizabeth Wallace 255 263 265
14 Dorothy Barrick 267 271
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF MARYLAND
SAMUEL JAMES LANKFORD, et a1.
V8 .
BERNARD J. SCHMIDT, as COMMISSIONER
of POLICE of BALTIMORE CITY
Civil No. 16080
Baltimore, Maryland
Friday, January 15, 1965
The above-entitled matter was resumed for
hearing before His Honor, Roszel C. Thomsen, Chief Judge.
A P P E A R A N C E S
(As heretofore noted.)
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MR« NA3RIT: Mrs* Lucinda Wallace, please,
(hereupon, Lucinda Patricia Wallace was called to
the stand and sworn aa a witness and, having been first duly
sworn, was examined and testified as follows*)
THE CLERK: State your name for the record, pl«ase7
THE WITNESS* Lucinda Patricia Wallace,
THE CLERK: Lucinda Patricia Wallace?
THE WITNESS* Yes,
THE CLERK* Take the stand,
THE COURT: Miss or Mrs?
THE WITNESS* Mias,
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NABRIT*
Q Miss Wallace, where do you live?
A I live at ?408 Huron Street in the City of Baltimore
in an area called Mt. Winans,
Q And who lives in that house with you?
A Well, the home is owned by my mother and my father,
Mr. Harry Wallace, Mrs. Elizabeth Wallace, I have a brother
whdk throe and a half years old, a sister sixteen years old.
Q What is her nano?
A Sharon Wallace, Harrietts Wallace la twenty one,
Q She is your sister?
A Yea, My aunt, ray mother’s sister, Mrs, Hattie
Eurley, Mr, Clarence Burley.
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Q Are you employed and where?
A Yes, I am, for the Department of Education In the
City of Baltimore as a teacher in the Elementary Echoed 116.
THE COURT* how olo are you?
THE WITNESS* Twenty nine ana ten months,
BY MR. MERIT*
Q, Do you recall the evening of December 30, 1964?
A Yes, I do,
Q Describe for us briefly what you did early that
evening, where you were?
A Weil, I was none, i naa invited three youngsters,
teenagers, who had worked wltn me in my Vacation Bible School
to share the Christmas spirit with us, and some friends, two
friends from the city, Mrs. Dorothy Barrick and Mr. Loralnne
Philips were also there.
Q, What does Mrs. Barrick do?
A Mrs. Barreti is a counselor, guidance counselor at
School 130. Mrs, Phlixps is a ttacher in the City of Eaitlmoxje
also.
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evening?
A
Q
A
All right, go ahead. Were they at your home that
Yes, they were all there.
And what were you doing?
My little brother and my two sisters, whom I have
already mentioned, my aunt, and my uncle was in bed, we watchejd
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Shindig0
Q Where was your mother?
A Hy mother was at the snop which is about four i.oora
from tne nousc.
4 t'uia u jiOulU OX OXiup 2
A iieauty snop.
<4 Ana she operates that?
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XUS, She uOttB.
Mhure .■ do your x either•
A suaoy was the barber shop*
Tikb wOifiVxi iio wau whure?
til «4» • lklrUox* •
3Y i-Ei. NABRIXs
<4 Hi* right, t»o aheua and describe what, you were do:
shat evening;
« hull, - huu set up some cookies and Coke and cand;
ana wnat not to cat.
4 how, what aid thus group do there that evening?
A v.eli, wo watchea bhinaig. After watohixxg Shindig
they asked ms. to show them tome Glides which I had taken in
Hawaii during the summer. I had 3et up the tray which holds
thirty slides, I nua shown thirty slides, I was refilling the
tray.
4 About what time was this?
A I think it was about nine o'clock, maybe nine flfte
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I'm not too sure,
I had refilled the tray and X had shown about two
or three slides and we talked about them and 1 saw a light
flash to and fro across the uinlng room wall, I thought that
J
maybe It was a car coming down tne nill because there is a
hill that faces an alley that faces our house, but It Kept
moving and harrletta or someone 3aid, It looks like a search
light or something* do 1 Jumpea up from the chair ana I pull-
ed back the drapes and looked out of the front window*
Wnen 1 looked out of tne wincow 1 saw, oh, I con't
know, six or seven policemen lined across our front fence with
rifles, or long guns, whatever thay were, pointed towards the
house and I said, tty Gou, what have we done, what do they want
with us? Ana I x&n to the aoor, Harrietts ran behind me, Shar
was with me, also, I opened the door*
s\ Q What door was that?
A It was the side door* We have a side entrance,
front entrance and back entrance, two back entrances*
I opened the door first, Sharon was standing on the
steps ’which are directly facing the side door, Harrietts was
standing at the rail to my right of the steps, and as I openec
the door there was a policeman there with a rifle, a long gun,
In his hand, and he had the storm door open*
So I said, well, what's wrong, what have wo done,
what do you want? He said, the Wallaces live here? 1 said,
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Kr. Harry Wallace lives here, that’s ray father. So he says,
la this 2408 Huron Street? And I said, yes, it is. And he sa
well, move back and I moved back up on the steps and he came
in and he pushed the door open.
Q What steps are these?
A These are the sloe steps going up to the second flo
X moved back up on the steps. One policeman came behind
him came two more and they proceeded to the living room,
he Bald, where are the men in the house, how many
men in the house, where are they, who are they? So I said, my
father — I don't know, I said, I have some young men here. So
he went to the back room Bitting room and then X followed him
and X tried to name and he said, well, what are their names?
I tried to name them, I dicin't even see the kids, they have ai:.
moved from where they had been sitting. They were sitting in
the dining room, I couldn't even think of their names.
So then X said, well, what do you want? So he said,
well, we got a call. I said, what kind of call? He said, we
have to search the house.
At this tine one of the policemen had started up th«
steps and Harrietts said, wait a minute, my father is asleep.
She thought that daddy was asleep because he has to be to work
at eleven o'clock and he usually sleeps until ten.
Q Did you observe anything at the front door?
A Well, policemen came in the front door, about three
ill
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or four of them came In the front door.
Q, Did you go anywhere after this point that the polio
started the search?
A Well* yes, X did.
Q What did you do?
A I ourneu un the hall light and I went upstairs and
took him into the front bedroom, which is my aunt’s bedroom,
and my uncle was in bed asleep, do he said, who is this?
And I said, that is my aunt's husband. So ho pulled the cover
back from his face ana he shined a light in nis face and he
looked underneath the bod.
Then -it* said, well — he went through the other roci
chrougn my room. There is no hallway, one room enters Into thi
other room.
Th- door bulges between my room end the childrens*
room because clothes are hanging behind the door. We have two
closets.
He said, who is behind the door? I said, no one Is
behind the door, I said, they’re Just clothes. So 1 pushed the
door back and then I pulleu the clothes back and I said, see.
And then he went through the childrens' room and
back in mother's room and looked in the closets and under the
bed and came back through the childrens' room and looked under
the bed.
At that time I looked out of the back window, the
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childrens8 back window, and I saw policemen, about six or seve
or eight, Z don't know how many, lined across the back bence
with rifles pointed toward the house.
While i was in mother's room I kept asking, well,
what is wrong, what have we uone, what do you want with us?
And he said — I was sitting on mother's dresser and he said,
well, you know the Veney brothers ? And I 3ala, no* I 3aid,
I've heal’d about chem on television, on the radio and read
about them in the newspapers. He said, you don't know them
personally? I said, no.
Then he proceeded down the stairs,
<4 Did you have any other conversation with him up
stairs at that pojait?
A Ho, just that this is a big house.
Q Did you as* him any questions?
A I asked him what had been done, what did they want
with us.
I asked him what kind of a call they had gotten, he
said they had gotten this call and I said what kind of call.
He said they had gotten this anonymous call that the Veney
brothers were hiding out in our house, and I said, we don't,
you know, even know them.
Q Go ahead.
A He came down the steps ahead of me and got half way
down the steps and dropped on the steps. 113
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Who did?
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Q Who did?
A 1 did, I Just dropped on the steps, I sat.
THE COURTS I didn't hear what you said.
BY MR. NABRITs
ft Repeat that for the Judge.
A The policeman preceded me down the steps and I got
half way down and I just dropped, just fell on the steps.
THE COURT; Did you faint?
THE WITNESSs No, I Just got limp and I just dropp«
down on the steps, that's all. There was so much going on,
so much talking ana we got worus here ane words there and therj
was so much confusion and it swemeu like sc many people in
the house, so many uniforms and guns, and I don't know.
BY MR. NABRXT*
ft All right, what was the next thing you remember?
A The next thing X remember I was sitting on the stepji
I can remember mother coming in tne door crying, where are my
children ... (Witness crying.)
MR. NABRIT* If your Honor please.
MR. SOUSE: If your Honor please, I would move that
we strike that answers
THE COURT; It doesn't seem to be material to any
issue in the case but the Court is satisfied that this is a
distressing experience to all these people and there is no
use repeating it.
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MR,, NABRITj Your Honor, this 1b not tht answer I
had anticipated eliciting,
The uOUit'i'; I think you have offered evidence that
is a necessary fact,
BY MK. HAShii:
k Are you acre to describe what happened alter that
now?
a I know mother was air excited, Harrietts and bharon
both ran to her crying, ana I ran to her and I tried not to
cry to calm her, to tell ner tn&t everything was all right, th
we were all right,
Q Were there uny officers there, was there any conver
eation with them?
A I icr.ow there were officers in tne sitting room and
officers in the u-ning room ana we finally got — in the iivin
room and the uining room ana we finally got mother to sit on
the sofa in tne living room ana sne was still crying ana the
officers were trying to say that everything was all right but
she kept crying arid t«ey wex‘e trying to tell her that they
had gotton the anonymous call, mother was still crying so one
of the officers said, well, you tell her, he told me, you tell
her what happened ana I told Harrietts, i said, go get mother
some smelling salts or some ammonia or something so that we
can calm ner so that she doesn't get too excited and doesn't
get sick. Alia then one of the officers told one of the office:
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to get some smelling salts*
Q Now, how many officers did you see In the home?
A I know three cane In first in the side door and
about four. I suppose, came in the front door*
Q Did you learn any of their names?
A One or two names were called but I can't remember
any of them* It was during the time they were trying to con
sole mother, X suppose, and tell her what had happened but I
was too concerned with mother to even get any names or anythin
Q Diu you have or overhear any further conversation
with the officers?
A I can't *.*
Q Well, what happened at this point?
A Well, mother kept crying and the children, the two
girls kept crying and one of the officers asked me what was mj
young sister's name, I gave her name, and askeu me what wa3
Harrietts's name, X gave her name, and he asked for mother's
name, I gave her name and all of their ages. He asked me how
many people lived in the house and I couldn't even think about
how many lived there, X just told him — I Just started countJj
them off and telling him who they were, just the children, anc
how old they were* I Just told him that the children were the
and how old the children and how many adults were in the home,
Q Now, these people that you mentioned earlier from
the Bible School, who were they and what are their ages?
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A Darlene McCoy* she's about eighteen or nineteen,
I'm not too sure. She graduated from ...
THE COURT: Well, that is all right# Hew many were
there and how old were they?
THE WITNESS; clarence Moore, who must be about
seventeen or eighteen.
BY MR. NABRITi
Q There was a third person, who was that?
A There la a third person who is about eighteen or
nineteen.
Q A boy?
A A boy.
Q Did you go anywhere at this point?
A Well, mother had a customer, she had to see her.
Q Did you go ary where?
A I went outside on the front porch,
Q What did you observe?
A Police cars, and I don't know how many policemen,
I don't know how many people were standing in front of the hoi
in the yard, coming out of the alley facing the house there
a big patrol wagon.
Q How long were the police in the house?
A (No response.)
k You don't know?
A Fifteen, twenty, twenty five minutes, I couldn't siy.
house,
wai»
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Q Did you have any other conversation with them when
they left?
A Well, l Just told them that I hoped that they catci;
or apprehend the Veney brothers but I would hope that they
didn't terrorize the other people as much aa they had us at
the time,
Q Were you ever shown any paper by the officers?
A No, no papers at all,
Q Any warrants mentioned?
A No warrants mentioned,
MR, NABRIT: I nave no other questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. BOUSE:
Q Mias Wallace, on December 30th when you had these
guests,xwhat time did these guests arrive?
A LetIs see, I thiruc Clarence arrived first, it was
between seven and seven thirty, I'm not too sure.
What is the other fellow's name? I can't think of
his name. The otner young gentleman arrived aboud eight, I
guess.
Q You don't icnow this other man?
A I know id bud I can't think of his name,
Q Haa he ever Deen to your house before?
A Oh, yes. He teaches, he taught Bible School for
me ana deaches in ray Sunday School,
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Had he ever been in your home before?
Yea.
Tat. COURT* Do you hove a record of what his name
is? It might simplify this.
\HR. NABRxfx I am trying to find it. Your Honor,
THi W l i G l a d d i n g , Robert; Robert Gladding,
BY MR, BOUBR*
$ Hac. clarence ever Deen to your nome before?
A On, yes,
Q Now, you say Clarence came first and Robert Gladding
came next, is snat right?
A Yea,
All rignt, and then wno else came?
.Darlene came with Robert,
She came wltn Robert?
Yes,
All rxghc, and is that ail that was there outside
of your housemaid?
A No, wuere was hra, BarrxcK from the city,
Q What time did she arrive?
A Wexx, Mrs, Barrio* had been there because she had
gotten ner nair done,
Q So she had been in the house sometime?
A Yes,
THH COURT* How do you spell that name?
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k
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A Ana there was a Mrs. i*hilips,
Q What time aia she arrive?
A Weil, che two of them came togecner.
Q £ihv nau seen there, too?
A Yes.
Q All right, and wno else was there?
A Outside of my househola?
Q Yes, is that all outside of the household?
A That's right, that is all.
Vi how, when Clarence came between seven and seven
tnirty, did he come in a car or did he come on foot?
A When he was at the door 1 didn't Bee any car. He
lives two streets from me, within walking distance,
Q He lives within walking distance?
A Yes.
Q how about Robert Gladding and iiarlene?
A They alx live within walking distance.
They all live within walking distance.
Now, when they all arrived it was dark, was it?
A Yes.
Q And the last ones to arrive arrived about eight
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0*0X00** Is that right?
A Yes.
k About what time was it that the police officers
came in the house?V /
A I'd say oetween 9iA3, 9*30, sometning like that.
k \ 9*^p to 9 :j0?
A Somewhere betweexi that time because it took cie abou
twenty live minute*, 1 don't Knew between fifteen and twenty
five minutes «/<o shun the first set of slides.
k You had shown the slides?
A I was showing the second set, 1 was on the second
set of slides.
k Anu whan tne police officers came in the front door
was the front uoor unlocked?
A ho, it was locked, noun doors were locked.
k 1 seo. how, you have testified before that they
came in the front uoor, diu you let tnem in?
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ho, 1 diu not.
Do you Know whow tney got in the front door?
one poi^c email went to tne fi*oxit door.
Tiid oodhii nnat was uxxat?
■*■*** hiAit*w; one of the policemen went to the fron1
door.
COURTi I still can't hear you,
UR. NABRITi She said one policeman went to the
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froi^t door.
MR. NABRIT: X had intended to elioit this cvlc
by other witnesses. X just v<ant to say to the Court that this
witness doesn't have personal knowledge or this.
Thh COURT* Air right, then ii you are going to put
on another wxonees there xs no use bothering nor*
BY HR. SObbs;
Q You t>axu tnat when you went out into the hall you
turnou on *he light, is that correct?
a Yes, the starrway•
<4 rarueu lue .
a ina stairway light*
<4 hov. uaijy rooms are on the i'irst Hoax’ oi your some
on Huron street?
a rrrst rlouri
H Yes,
A JHVe*
(4 i?ivo, ana there is a kitchen, I suppose, is that
right?
it X v - i-» ©
ii ana were the lights on in the kitchen?
A 1 can't remember.
Q There is a living room, 1 suppose?
it YeS.
Were the lights on in the living room?
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Z°m quite sure, we had company. I'm quite sure.
And what room of the house were you in?
I was in the dining room.
\Q \ You were in the dining room and this is where you
were showing these slides?
A Yea,
Q Were the lights on in the dining room?
A No, \
Q But the lights had been on in the dining room very
shortly before the first police officers came in, weren*t they
A Very true,
Q, And then just before the police officers came in
the lights were on for a few minutes while you changed the sll|<
aid then all of a sudden they went off, is that right?
A Pardon me, will you repeat what you Just said?
Q I say the lights were off in the dining room while
you were Bhowing the first tray of slides
A Yes. \
Q ... and then the lights went on for a very short
period?
A Yes.
Q And then the lights went off again, is that correct^
A Yes,
Q And the lights were off in the hall, is that correct?
A The stairway, yes, \
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Q And you don't remember whether the lights were on
anywhere else on the first floor, is that correct?
a There was one in the dining room— the sitting rooir
The dining room xs here, ^Indicating), the sitting room is hen
the kitchen comes through this way, the kitchen, the sitting
room anu the living room,
k Kow uo you remember that there was a light on in th«
sitting roan?
a The light on the television.
Q How ao you remember that?
A There xs a lamp there, 1 know it was. toe nad one
hero, we haa that xrght.
4 Do you remember that that was on?
A Yes.
k But that is a very aim light, a television light,
is it?
A ho, it is a lamp.
k Anu. the curtains were drawn, isn't that correct?
A Yes,
k Kow, when your mother came in and you indicated that
she was upset, the police officers did their best to explain
to her what had happened, that she shouldn't be upset. I thine
that was your testimony, was it not? v
A Yes, they tried to tell her, yes.
k Ana they tried to be aE helpful as they could, is
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that so?
A Yes.
<4 Ana it is your testimony under oath that when the
police officers left that you said to them that you hoped thej
didn't terrorize anyone else?
A Well, they might not have been my exact words but—
well, it may not have been my exact words but I hoped that
they wouldn't upset everybody, you know, as they had us. I
don't know whether the word was terrorize or what it was,
Q All right. Well, if you can't remember your pre
cise language it would be so much more helpful to us if you
tell us that what you are saying is simply paraphrasing?
A Yes.
(4 how, when the police officers left didn't you,
when you made your statement, didn't they say to you they
hoped so, too?
A Could have, I don't know.
MR. duUhh: 1 have no further questions.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NABRITi
Q You testified, I think, that there were two occasic
when a police officer mentioned coming because of an anonymoui
phone call, is that correct?
THE COURT j There was nothing on cross examination
on that. Do you have some reason for that?
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MR, NAERITi Yes, I want to know IT that was para
phrased,
i'at* UoUhi; A H ribiii*,
joi HR. HAJSRI1;
^ uu.̂ the ui\xvui‘ ut> tee words* 1 anony mouse phone
call ? i
A Yw»»,
‘«t hOW Utauij ui&lOS ?
A >—ai — j-.« lAvtbiibj. 1 l> b<-vu wviii u.i«a once in siii. r̂vxnî soon
v* bescribe the two tsenagwd boys physically?
A Houoi'w is tain,
'it How ta^ .1.
A Acwut b'S> * x &UeSS, •
A -f»ny bp-Uiaj. churacscrissics?
A fill j \« *» ~n «
Q Hustache, scars or anything?
A lvOjp a 10 wUb •
i*k. bOUR'i: *s share a description of the Veneys
in the file?
MR* dO'UUiJ.; If your Honor please, I will attempt tc
get one,
1-ui, i Ihore .̂s a uesox'-.pt*on ox the Veneys
on she bach of ssciv. o* she papers attached to the complaint,
MR* bOUSih: It os an the back of t h e warrant,
KR* itUillT t It is oxi the back of the wars ant which
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is part of Exhibit A, I forgot that, I*a sorry,
m MR, MBRITx
Q How old is this first young man who you describedV
a moment ago if
A Gladding,
Q Giadaing, what is his age?
A I ‘U say about eighteen or nineteen,
W, His height?
A 5'd” or t>'7’ ,
<i and your best estimate as to his weight?
A I don't know, about 130, I guess. About 130, 3 5,
He’s very thin,
Q And hib bkin complexion?
A About my complexion,
Q Would you describe that for the
A Medium brown,
Q And the color of his eyes?
A 1 couldn't say,
Q, Color of his hair?
A Black, or dark brown,
Q Short or long?
A Short,
Q Nov/, describe the other young man? What wn3 the
other one's name?
A Clarence,
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MR. SOUSE: Is there a loot name for Clarence?
THE WITNESS: Moore.
BY MR. NABRITi
Q Hie age as best you can estimate It?
A About seventeen or eighteen, I guess,
Q And his height?
A I guess the two of them were about the same height
but Clarence is heavier.
Q The color of his hair?
A Black.
Q Eyes?
A They‘re dark. I wouldn't know whether they were
brown or black.
Q Complexion?
A He’s a little darker than I.
Q How was he clothed?
THE COURT: Does the State contend that anybody
thought, t.mt any of the police thought they saw one of these
men go in there?
MR. NABRITi The police or anyone else?
THE COURT: if we are going to have twenty or thirty
witnesses ;Ln gross without having any idea of what the police
theory is ;Ln each case, we don't have anything to go by and
there is a great proliferation of unnecessary evidence.
MR, SOUSE: if your Honor please, as best I under-
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stand It ws are evaluating probable cause. Now, certainly,
V
these two gentlemen going Into this lady's home at night in
this residential nelgnborhood with tne lights going on and ofi
\. ■ ■ ; : ■ anu so forth wouiu have uau^uax circumstance •
liin COUKl; It is not an unusual circumstance for
people who are snowing home movies, they would turn the lights
on ana ox. i ♦
oOow^. ho, not m itself out certainly couplet
with iitl’ormatj.ĉ i that
Tiio vobiifj 1 con1 1 anew what your- information Is,
that is the *>oin«. 1 am trying to snorten this thing, we just
can't go aheue taking the best part of an hour for each wltnes
it seems unnecessary.
how, ir tne plaintiffs will put on enough to prove
the substance or the e^ae, then there can ot cross examination
liulteu to tiie i«cts wwicn will sear- on vht point ana then
viitette people may ixave .u be recalled to clarify things after
we fine out v<ihat tne odate’s position is. fne State can't
state rts position In advance, I suppose, but we can go on
indef initely if j uu try to answer in advance o ver, conceivable
ground that the wtete might i*avw for going in.
Hn, ihlbRIxi Very well, your Honor. I have no
further questions*
ifhi tOUivl; l «oiow the police have cars cruising\
around, thirty people or twenty people or ten people In cars
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watching young men walk into a house and lights going on and
x off and considering that probable cause Tor a raid., I am sure
they have something more than that*
MR, NABRITs I don't share that confidence. Your
Honor, but I will ablue uy your ruling, and 1 have no further
questions of this witness*
THE UbErbu Any further questions?
MR* bOUaE j Ho questions*
THE CLERK t Etand down, please*
(Witness excused*)
MR, NABRITj Mrs, Martha Alston.
(thereupon, Martha M* Alston was called to the star
and sworn as a witness and, having been first duly sworn, was
examined and testified as follows:)
THB CLER&t dtate your name for the record*
THE WITNESS * Mrs. Martha M, Alston.
THE CLERK: Mrs. Martha M* Alston?
THE WlTNEodj Yes*
THE CLERK: Take the stand, please,
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NABRIT:
Q That is A-l-s-t-o-n?
A Yes*
Q Where do you live, Mrs. Alston?
A I live at 2202 North Rosedale,
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THE COURTi 2202 North
THE WITNESS* Rosedale,
BY MR* NABRIXi
W auu vino oo i’ou live there with?
A \ iv huboanu anu I nave Tour ohiloren hut only two
stay there *
Q, vo you remember the evening oi Monday* January 4,
1965?
A Yea* I do* Monday around about nine o'clock I was
in my living room with ray huabana, X hau put ray two children
to bee, and wo wore looking at the television and all ol a
suddexx it sounded like someboay walked on ray porch. Where I
live there is Tour houses and tney are joinea, they have woode
steps that lead to the wooaen porch and when someone walks on
either side oi* my house sometimes it sounds like they're on ray
porch *
bo this particular night I got up • 1 don,t navo a
Venetian blind on the front doer but I have a shade and I had
pulled that down, so I went there to peak and I didn't see
anyone on either porch or ray porch, but out in the street I
saw a iaan and he wa3 doing this beside a parked car,(indicatir
h He was making a motion with his hand?
A To me it looked like a gun*
Q
A
Go aheau, what else did you see?
Then I went and X sit there and I Bald to ray hus
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I said* to me it looked like a man outside with a gun and he
didn't pay rae any mind„ So he stayed in the living room to
look at the T.V. snow.
1 went to my second floor front room where I could
look uown ana when 1 looKea down there were five cars* four
small cars wxtn policemen in It and the car inbetween was
W ML.
lnX COuni s *&a wnat?
t-m . .̂ uiiaRITi WbAx*.
Inc. Wifhcoo* The car nad on it WSAn-fV.
oo oj tnen 1 could sec that they actually were
policemen* ao;ne nad on xeatner Jackets, some naa on bullet
proof vests over tneir uniform.
do every now enu then tne light would go like that,
(Indicating.) So X aian‘& bother aoout putting ray light on
because I wouxan't be able to use* so I left qy light off and
X stood there and iooitca. oo I was confused. I was wondering
BY MR, NABRIr;
Q Don't teii wnat you were thinking* Just tell what
you Baw.
A Ouj what x saw* ail right.
u° uf a suuaen x iicura glass breaking which can'
from t»ie back.
h Would you repeat that?
Trii. COURT* ohe said she heard glass break* it
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appeared to come from the back.
THE WITNESSi So I went to my back, I couldn’t se<
anything but X couiu sue my next-door neighbor's light on.
They didn't come into ©, house, they went into my next-door
neighbor's house, he was at — both of them were at work,
BY HR, NABRiTi
i. What did you co then?
A to I went buck to my front room to look out to sec
what wus going cn in the front ana her light oatne on in her
second floor front room.
Q When you say her, who do you moan?
A Hr a. George Floyd, that is my next-door neighbor.
Q how, who lives next door to you?
AH Mr*. anc Mrs, George Floyd,
Q Wilt, t
•
is their address?
A 2 *0^ North Roseualo Street.
Q Then what happened?
A Well, I come downstairs, on the way coming down
here comes this loud knook on my door. Well, I rushed down,
I opened the door an' I said, What's going on? And they Just
walked right in, it was eight of them, some in theii Jackets.
The leader had on a bulletproof vest over his uniform, he
didn’t have a hat on.
So they said, I ’m searching for the Veney brothers,,
Q Where were they when they said that?
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A They was In my living room because X told them
they couldn't go any further because they came in Just like
soldiers and 1 said, what's going on? And they said* we're
searching for the veney brothers, 1 said, searching fox* the
Veney brothers, x uon't know no Veney brothers.
Well, here, one reached in hlb pocket, got two
photos and X Iookou at them ana I saia, no, I've never seen
them before.
hell, who lxveo next door? That's what the office
said, I sale Ur, anu i-ira, ueox’gc Floyd live next door, hell,
Just tell them the policemen from the hortheaatem were here,
tell them to call down to denti'al.
They went right out,
Q Did you later tiiat evening see either of your
neighbors?
A well, nr. George was the first one to come home.
Q how much later was that?
A how, X couldn't teix you the time because I wasn't!
watching the time but I do know they were thex*e ...
Q, bid you tell them what had happened?
A ... around nine.
What? V
Q bid you tell thorn what had happened?
A He asked me what had happened to his house while
was at work and I said, well, the officers say they was sear*
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159
for the Veney brothers. So he said, well, who let them In?
I Bald, they let their own self In.
Q Did you later see Mrs, Barbara Floyd?
A Later his wife came and she was frightened and she
came into my nouse and ane said ...
MR. MURPHYt 1 think we ought to object to ...
MR. 2iABRi.il Just describe what happened.
THE COURT* The only thing that you have here is
that they apparently broke in the glass, there is nothing they
did at her house that was wrong.
THE WlihiiSoj No, they didn't do anything at my
house that was wrong.
ThL COURT * I don't see anything questionable abou;
that. They came to the door, they didn't go beyond and they
told her what they were doing. They didn't push through, X
don't see that this lias anything to do with it. They apparent!.;
bro^e into the house next uoor and that is your evidence and
that is all there is to it tliat I can see on this one.
ido HABRITt Your Honor, I will reserve any comment!
I have,
I have no further questions of this witness.
THL COURT* Unless something comes ap in rebuttal,
1 am not saying whether they had a right or not a right to
break In but that is wiuit you proved anc that is it.
MR. RABBITi I have no other questions of this wi
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CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR* SOUSEj
Q Mrs. Alston, when you were up on your second floox
did you have any lights on up there at all?
A no*
it And you were just t M
A You bee, if 1 put the light on £ ooulon’t — I had
wo look through my window*
<4 You couldn't have peekeu out the window?
a ?eekod out the winnow?
Q You couldn't have looked out the window if you
have the light on.
A I diun‘t want the light on*
THE COURTi What difference doe6 that make? Is
there any question atout the police being there? She said
she saw polioemeu in front, she saw policemen in back*
MR. HOUSE* Well, that is what I am getting to, if
Your Honor please*
THE COURT* All right*
BY MR. SOUSE:
Q Now, ^ou say when you looked out the front window
you saw these police cara and a WBAL truck, is that right?
A it was a car, it wasn't a truck.
<Z It was a oar?
A Yes,
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s
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A
Q
A
\
Now, when you looked out the hack ea«
Well, out the back I didn't see anyone*
You didn't see anyone out the back?
ho, x didn't Bee anyone*
Thb COURTS bid you look out the back?
THE WITNESS* Yes, 1 looked out the back and I did
see my nelghoor'a light on in the kitchen*
BY MR* SOUSE;
Q You saw your neighbor's light on In the kitchen
id but you didn't see anyone in oaoxv?
n A Z didn't duo anyone,
12 II THE COURT* Set me ask you, you say you saw the
12 light on, diu you look out the back before you heard the break)-
14 ing of glass or after you heard the breaking of glass, or both
ir, t̂ aies?
k; 9 B MXUBBBSl Well, I had to look out the back
n when I neard the breaking glass,
is IKK COURT: Diu you look out the back before you
id heard the breaking glass?
20 THE WITNESSi ho, I was in my second floor front
21 room looking out the front*
THE COURT; That is what I wanted to know,
22 BY MR. SOUSE;
24 Q And then you heard the breaking glass, you went to
the back, you looked out and you didn't see anything, is that
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162
right?
A That'a right,
Q Dia you continue to look out the back window?
A Yes, that's when X saw the light come on in her
kitchen. You see, those houses are attached together,
(4 x uncierbtana out when you saw the light come on in
the kitchen did you keep rooking out tne back?
A ho, 1 didn't keep locking cut the back, I went to
the front.
(4 old you ever ace any police officer or any person
go into the back coor of that house?
A ho, but 1 know they did,
(4 Well, now, dia you ever see anyone go into that
house? The answer la no, rs that correcti
A ho, 1 didn't see anyone,
<4 iou don't set anyone go in the front door or the
back door or tne window, you didn't sea anyone go in the house
at all, is that correct?
A That's correct,
(4 All right.
after you heara tnis glass breaking, you went to
the back window and looked out, then you went back to the
front. Did you see, were tne police officers still there?
A Yea, dome were out in the atxHiet ana some was in
her, in the — in Mrs, Floyd*s second floor front room. The
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163
light came or* as I cane
Q You don’t know that there were polioe officers In
the second floor front room, you saw no one entering the house
did you?
A wexl, botn people were out at work,
THu COURT* Do you offer to prove that no police
officers went In the house?
MR, BOlfcSis.* If ^our Honor please, at this point we
donft know,
THfc COURT* All right, then it makes a great deal
of difference, I suppose you can cross examine, I thought
you had been tola of the addresses and you would know. If no
polioe officers went in this is perfectly proper cross examin
ation but if some officers went in this is Just a waste of time
MR, S0Ub£* If Your Honor please, our information
right now flatly is that no officers went In,
IHE COURT* Ail right, go ahead with cross examin
ation, There is no need to argue with her because we have
established tnat she saw the light go on but she doesn't know
that an officer put them on and that is on the basis of anyth!i
she said so far, it is simply a matter of inference,
MR, S0U£>£* No further questions,
RiiDIR^CT EXAMINATION
BY MR, NABRIf:
Q Did you hear any sound from the neighbor's house
\
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A No, I didn’t,
Q Did any officer say anything to you to indicate
whether or not they had been in your neighbor’s house?
\ A Well, when X openeu the uoor anu they came in and
X saiu, what's going on/ They said they were in search for
the Veney brothers, X said, the Vcney- brothers? And he said
yes, X said, X don't Know the Veney brothers,
MR, bGUbh: If Your Honor please,
THE COURT; That is exactly what she sale before,
MR, bGUbbs Almost verbatim,
MR. NABRITi Yes.
BY MR, NABRITi
Q V»as there a message that the officer gave you to
give to your neighbors?
A he tola me to tell Mr, ana Mrs* George Floyd that
the policemen from the Northeastern were there, they can call
down to Central,
THE COURTS That the officers from Northeastern we
there and they could call Central?
THE WITNESSs That’s right,
THE COURTS Somebody give me the spelling of the
neighbor's name?
MR. SOUSEs Floyd,
THE COURTs F-l-o-y-d?
MR, NABRITi Mr, George Floyd, F-l-o-y-d, and Mrs.
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165
Barbara Floyd*
\ THE COURT* I Just wanted to be sure I had it right!
I wasn*t sure if it was Floyd or Lloyd*\\
MR* NABR1T: lour witness.
RECRGbS EXAMINATION
BY MR. SOUSE:
<4 You indicated to Mr. Nabrit Just now that you hea
no sound in the building next door, is that right?
A That’s right.
Q In the Floyd home?
A That’s right.
Q But you indicated before that you diu see the ligh
come on. Did you put your head out the window and see the
light come on in the kitchen next door?
A All I had to do was look out my window, Just walk
to the window and look. You see, the houses in the back have
what you call an air-way and Mrs. Floyd’s kitchen window is
opposite my kitchen, her light came on.
Q Did you see the window or did you see light coming
out of the window and falling on the ground?
A No, the window's too high for the light to fall on
the ground,
Q Did you see the window itself or did you Just see
light?
A I saw the window.
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166
Q You oan see the window from your house?
A Yes.
Q Aren't all the houses, the baok of all of the
houses flat in a straight line?
A No, two are high, two are low.
THE COURT: Well, show on the blackboard how you
could sea the back window in your neighbor’s house.
YiR. NABRIT: The witness described that there was
an air-way, Ydur honor.
THE COURT: Is the air-way between the houses or
behind the houses?
THE WITNESS: between the house.
THE COURT: Between the houses, all right,
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: All right, I understand it.
BY MR. SOUSE:
Q bo you have an alley behind your house?
A It's two alleys, one alley runs beside the house
and one in the intersection, in the back.
Q Is your house attached to the — do you have a wa2
between your house and the Floyd's house or is there an air
space that goes all the way through inbetween?
A All four of those houses join from the front to tl
dining rooa. They only have two rooms on the first floor.
THE COURT: As I understand it between the two
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167
houses they are Joined on the front and in the back between
each pair of houses there is an air-way,
i'lhe NABRIT: Y«S,
BY MR, SOUSE:
. Now, the thing what I xta trying to
understand in my mind ia this, Is the window that you looked
out of and saw the light come on does this window look out
toward the alley or docs it look out toward the house next doo^
A It looks right down toward the house,
Q It looks toward the house next door?
A That's right, Ity house is higher than their house
my porch is higher than theirs,
MR. oOlidk: All right, that 13 all.
ME. NABRIT: You may step down,
(Witness excused,)
MR. NABRIT: Mrs. Barbara Floyd, please.
(Thereupon, Barbara Floyd was called to the stand
and sworn as a witness and, having been first duly swc*r*n, was
examined and testified as follows:)
THE CLERK: State your name for the record, please(?
THE WITNESS: Barbara Floyd.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NABRIT:
Q State your name?
A Barbara Floyd.
Q And your address? s!8
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168
A 220t North Rosedale Street,
Q Are you employed?
A Yes, I am,
Q Where?
A Krlger Drug Store,
THE COURT: Where?
THE WITNESS: Krlger, K-r-i-g-e-r.
BY MR, NABRIT:
Q Drug store?
A Yes.
Q Are you married?
A Yes, I am,
Q Your husband lives there with you?
A Yes, he does,
Q What is his name?
A George Floyd,
Q What does he do?
A He works at the Maryland State Building and also a
the Gas and Electric Company,
Q Your age?
A Twenty two,
Q Your husband*s?
A Twenty two,
Q Now, this address on Rosedale Street, do you own
that home, are you buying it or what?
119
A
169
We*re buying,
Q Do you recall on Monday, January 4th, a week ago?
A Yea.
Q What aid you do that aay?
A Well, 1 got up around six thirty and I cooked
breakfast for ay nuoband ana he left.
The. COURT 1 A.M0 or r,M,, morning or evening?
THE WITNESS 1 Morning, and fixed ray husband break
fast so he could go to work and he left around seven o'clock
A.M., and after that I started cleaning the house, then I
had lunch, X stopped and haa lunch, and 1 had to get a few
clothes, washing, 1 did that ana then 1 got ready for work,
BY MR, NABRIT:
<4 Did you leave the house?
A Yes, X left arounu 2i3Q, maybe close to three.
And wnat did you ao then?
A X went to work,
Q What are your wording hours that day?
A My wording hours are from four to ten,
<« Your husband has two jobs, what are his working
hours?
a rirs one, the main job, the Maryland State Building,
he work8 from eignt until 4 130 and he lsave3 there and goes t<
the Gas and Electric Company and he works from five to ten
there,
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ft Every day?
A No, sometimes he gets off aroune nine,
ft Now, did anything unusual happen to you that even-
Ing or did you near about?
A Yfcs0
ft Strike that.
THE COURT: What die she notice when she came home
BY MR. NABRIT:
ft X)ia you hear the last witness' testimony?
A Yes.
ft What do you know about this of your* own personal
knowledge ?
A My husband called me on the job around quarter to
ten and told me that the house was raided and I told him, what
tor? Ana he said, X aon't jenow,
MR* SOUSE: X object to what the husband said,
Your Honor.
MR. NABRITi X agree with that.
THE COURT: la the husband here?
MR. NABRIT» No, he is not. Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: Well, I got off around ten and went
straight home ana when I got there all the lights were on and
I went up stairs.
BY MR. NABRIT:
ft W&6 your nusband at home? * Z£1
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A Yea, he was, and X went upstairs, the cupboard
doors were open, everything was open, the closet doors, they
were open, everything was intact though, but Just the doors
were open,
THE COURTi You will have to speak up. Some or fcii
doors were open, that Is the last X got,
THE WITNESSi All my closet doors were open and
everything was Intact,
THE COURT* Everything was In what?
MR. MABRIT* Intact.
THE COURT* Intact, everything was Intact.
THE WITNESS* And I went downstairs and I heard
the dog whining and I asked my husband, what In the world was
the dog doing In the kitchen,
MR, MURPHY: I object to what the husband Is going
to tell her.
BY MR. NABRIT:
Q What did you see In the kitchen.
A The kitchen was In a holy mess, the dog was
having a ball and I went to the kitchen door, one of my w
panes were knocked out next to the latch.
Q Describe what this door looked like?
A It*s a white door with four window panes in it
sections, four window panes in It, one of the window panes
were out, , o o
there
findon
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Q Which one?
A Hie one next to the latch,
Q What do you mean, the door knob?
A Yea,
Q Now, where does this door lead, from where to whe
A It leads to the yard,
Q From where ?
A From the kitchen into the yard.
When you left the house what was the condition of
that door?
A It was all right, it was locked when I left the
house, Bverything was all right when I left the house,
Q Vinen you left the house where was your dog?
A He was in the basement,
Q How was he kept in the basement?
A Well, usually whon I leave usually he's In the
yard but whon I leave I put him in the basement because we
had some trouble,
Q Do you do this every day when you go to work, you
do that regularly?
A Yes, I do,
Q And is the dog able to come from the basement tc
the kitchen?
A No, he isn't,
123Q What stops him?
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Q A door* The cellar door la In the kitchen, I mean
the dining room. You go down to the cellar through the dining
room and we have a small narrow cellar door that we keep shut
when he*a down there.
Q And where did you find the dog?
A In the kitchen.
Q Did you find any evidence of anything the dog had
done in the kitchen?
A Yea, he had knocked trash all overthe1floor and
pulled dish towels down and Just ripped them up in little
pieces.
Q What about your cellar door?
A My cellar door was wide open but my kitchen door
was closed to keep him in there,
Q How do you lock the door that leads from the kl
to the yard?
A We have a latch on there, one of those latches
you pull, you know. We don‘t have the key latch, it's Just
of those little regular latches that you have to lock the doo
Q And was that when you observed it that even open?
THE COURT* Well, now, her husband was in there,
MR, NABRIT* Very well. Your Honor,
BY MR, NABRIT*
Q Did you or your husband, to your own knowledge.
any contact with the authorities after this?
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A No* My husband called hla lawyer*
MR. MURPHYt I object to that,
BY MR. NABRITt
Q Don't give any conversations.
What Is the lawyer's name?
A Mr* Cohen. I don't know the first name.
MR. NABRIT: Your witness,
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. SOUSE:
Q Mrs, Floyd, when you got home from work your hus
band was already home?
A Yes, he was,
Q Now, this pane of glass, you said the pane of gla^s
was out In the door next to the latch, is that right?
A Yes.
Q And there is a window divided up into four panes?
A Right,
Q And one of those panes was completely missing,
wasn't it?
A Yes.
Q It wasn't Just a hole in it. It was not there at a(ll?
A There was Just a little piece left in there, a
little small piece up at the top that was left,
Q A small piece left up at the top?
A Yes.
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175
Q Now, everything was still there when you got home?
A Everything was still there, the trash and everything
when I got home was still there,
Q You cleaned the glass off the back porch then, did
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you?
A Yes, I did, I cleaned everything,
Q Pardon me,
A I cleaned everything,
Q And you had to clean glass from the back porch?
A Yes,
THE COURT: Where was the glass?
THE WITNESS: The glass was partially in the door
where the storm screen door was. We have a storm screen door
there also and there was some glass in that, you know, where
the screen door is and the regular door. And there was glass
on the — pieces was on the back porch also, the back porch.
We have a little cement porch there,
THE COURT: None on the kitchen floor?
THE WITNESS: My kitchen floor, there was some
pieces, Just pieces of fragments inside but most of it was
inside under the door like, you know, and the dog had spread
some of it on the floor, around on the floor,
BY MR. SOUSE:
Q Most of the glass you say though was inbetween
the Btorm door and the back door?
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A Yes.
MR* SOUSEt I see„
1 have no further questions* Thank you*
MR* NABRIT; four Honor, In view of the ruling of
the question made to the last witness, I could not try to an
ticipate the questions asked, X did not ask this witness to
describe her nusband. However, I reason to think I know why t
police went to this house and X would like to ask this witness
to describe her husband*
THE COURT* Ail right.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NABRIT*
Q Would you describe your husband?
A My husbanu is robust built, he's 5*7" — he's about
or 5 ’9 # kind of dark complexion, he has a mustache,
that's about all.
Q Ana you gave his age before as what?
A Twenty two,
THE COURT* Twenty two is that?
MR. NABRIT* Yes.
BY MR. NABRIT*
i 2 ^Q Skin complexion?
A Dark. It's kind of a dark complexion.
MR. NABRIT* That is all. Your Honor.
Ku, SOUSE* Just one or two other questions.
177
1 RE CROSS EXAMINATION
•) BY MR* SOUSE:
:{ Q Your nusbanc whom you have just aeacribea, to your
• knowleuge naB he ever been arrestee or convictea or any crime?
5 HR* NABRITt Objection*
(i TEE COURT; Qverruisa* You are talking about
7 probable cause for going somewhere.
S THE WITNESS: Yes, I remember ol“ last year he was
!) arrestee I tnink ior uisorueriy conauct*
10 BY MR* SOUSE:
11 Q uisoruerxy conauct. Is that the only one that you
12 remember?
• A That's the only one that I remember.
14 Q This incident with regard to the back aoor, aid
15 you report that to your insurance company?
ltt A No, 1 uiun't.
17 Q I fast.
18 THE COURT: ho you tuive any insurance that covers
1!) that?
2 0 THE WITNESS: You mean oovers the house?
21 THE COURT: Yes.
•
THE WITNESS: Yes,
22 MR. SOUSE: No further questions.
2 4 REDIRECT EXAMINATION ̂y^.
2 5 BY MR. NABRITt
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Q Did you receive any advice from your attorney with
respect to the door?
a Yes, he tola my husband that he couldn't uo anythi
MH. SOUont Well, now 1 object; to what he told th
husband*
Tat COUh'i'j You are asking her if they filed any
claim against the insurance company ana if it was done on
advice of counsel, if she knows*
BY MR* NABRIT:
y Well, you got advice?
a Yes, he toiu him that he shoulu take the damage to
the police Btatxon anu have them pay for it.
^ nave y ou aone that ? I
A No. My husoanu put the window in himself.
MR. NABhxl'i That is all*
You may be excused,
uoaa Your Honor want mu to call another witness or|,
THE COURT: Let me speak to counsel for a minute*
(A conference was haa at the bench*)
MR* NAURU’: Harrietta Wallace*
(Thereupon, Harrietta Wallace was called to the
stand and sworn as a witness anu, having been first duly sworn,
was examined and testified as follows:)
THE CLERK: State your name for the record?
THE WITNESS: Harrietta Wallace.
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BY MR, HABRITi
DIRECT EXAMINATION
179
Q Miss Wallace, you are a sister of the witness who
testified earlier?
a Yea, X am*
(4 xjo you go to school?
A lea, l ao*
(1 where?
A I go to Morgan otatc,
Q What year are you?
A I'm in my thira year*
<4 Did you hear your sister testily here in court
this morning?
A lea.
<4 Were you home that night she testilled about?
A lea, I was,
(4 wnat night was that?
A That was on December jOth, it was a Wednesday,
<4 Will you tell the Court about any conversations
you had with police offioers or that you overheard while they
were in the house tnat night?
A Well, when they came in the house I stayed down
stairs on the first floor with them when they came in all of
ua asked what had happened, what was going on and one said,
when Lucinda was upstairs with one, downstairs, one told my
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aunt and I that they got a call and so I said, what kind of a
call? So one of the policemen said, we got an anonymous call
from a man saying that the Veney brothers ’were here. So I sal\
there aren’t any Veney brothers here.
So while he was going up the steps X said, wait a
minute, ray father's upstairs asleep and then ray aunt told rae
that ray father hau gone out, X didn't know this because I had
come home late because I was at the library that evening, so
X came home late, anu ray aunt said, well, there’s no Veney
brotners here so let them go search if they want to, so he did
The one was going downstairs and X said, wait a
minute, the dog stays downstairs and I better go let him out.
So then they told rae teat the uog was outside, so •»,
Q Were there any reraarics about the officer and the
dog?
A Yes, there was,
Q What was it?
A Mrs, barrick was so upset because of the fact that
they came in the house,
MR# SOUSE; l object to that. Your Honor,
BY MR, NABRIT:
Q Just what dlo you say,
THu COURT; Strike out, because she was upset.
Go ahead,
. THE WITNESS: As I said, I said, wait a minute, the
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dog is downstairs, So Mrs* Barrick said *,*
MR* SOUSE1 I object to what Mrs. Barrick said*
THE COURTS Take it subject to exception* It may
or may not be Res gestae*
(to ahead*
THE WITNESS * She said to the policeman — she as
to me* well, let him go on downstairs if he's so crude and rud
So the policeman,said, well, miss, the dog is not going to
bite me* She said, you don't know, she said, he might* She
said, you won't shoot him? And he said, not in the worus that
I'm saying it but in so many words, he said, if I have to, I
will.
So he proceeded downstairs with my sister Sharon,
I had another conversation with — I'm quite sure
he was a captain because I'm quite sure they called him captai|i
he had a white hat on, I was out on the porch *,,
MR. NAHRITi Was there anything that happened that
makes you think he was a captain?
THE COURT} She said he had a white hat on*
THE WITNESS} I'm quite sure I heard one of the
other officers call him captain, and while I was out on the
porch the captain asked me, who was that rude woman in the hous|c
I told him who she was and I said she might seem rude to you
but she's a very nice person. I said, and in the fashion that
you oarae into someone's house you might carry yourself the
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182
way she did if someone came in your house that way* And he
said, well, I*m very sorry but when we get a tip that the
Veney brothers are some place that we have to check It out*
BY MR. NABRI'X*
Q how, were you inside the house when your mother
came home?
, A Yes, 1 was.
Q Bid the officer make any statement at that point ,
A Well, yes, he was ...
k ... trying to explain to your mother or anything?
A ies, he was trying to explain — one of the onioc
was trying to explain to my mother what was going on but she
was so upset ....
Q Bon't tell us that, what did the officer say?
A he was trying to say — well he said that they had
gotten an anonymous phone call from a man saying that the
Veney brothers were there.
Q Bo you know how the officers got in the front aoor
A Yea, I ao. v
Q how?
A One of the officers went to the front door and
opened the door.
Q how, the officer who opened the aoor, where was he
A Well, there was one that came in first, two others
came behind him, one of the two that came ...
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Q Explain to the judge where these first officers
came from?
A Well, the first officers came into the sitting roc
where we were ,\
Q How did they get in the house, at the side?
\A Yes, at the side door.\
MR, MURPHYs X think we ought to let the witness
\
testify,
THE COURTx Well, we have had testimony as to how
they came in from the sloe. The question is who let the
people in the front or how they got in the front, if you know
who it was that did that, or you will produce the person who
knows that, \
BY MR, HABRXTs
Q Go ahead,
A One of the three who went in the sitting room went
to the front room and opened the door. The door was looked
and we have a little handle on it to turn the lock to open the
door. So when he saw that the door was locked he turned the
handle and opened the door and let them in,
Q What happened then?
A He let some more policemen in the house,
Q How many policemen came into the house?
A I know there were — I don‘t know how many alto
gether but I know there were three that came in first, there
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184
was one at the front who went to the front to open the coor
and there was one that went down the oellar that I knew of,
that went down the cellar with my Bister Sharon, and there
was one who went upstairs, 1 don't know how many altogether
was there,
k Liu ur«y officer put his nanus on you?
A Y e s , h e u i u ,
<4 when was this anu where?
a kher* they first entered the side door, Lucinda was
up on the steps ana ane back up into the steps, I was behind
her ano as ycu open the aoor 1 was behind the door, khen the
first officer came in he moved the door back so he could get
to the 3itting room ana in so doing entering the sitting room
he took his nand ana moved me to the side like that, (Indicatii
Q Lid he have any weapon in view?
A Yes, he did,
k khat kina?
A He had a gun, a rifle, \
Q Lid you see any warrant?
A ho, I didn’t,
Ci how long after the officers were in the house was
it that you first heard that they were looking for the Veney
brothers?
A Well, i’ll say about, approximately two minuteB
after they were in there.
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Q Two minutes?
A Yes, because they clan*t tell us when they first
came In that they were locating for the Veney brothers orhow t
came about cooing to our house.
Q, \ Well, w&a it before or after the officer entered
and started the search?
A it was after one officer was upstairs with ay sis'
and the other one was down the basement with my other sister.
One officer tola my aunt ana I that «hey goo a phone call* an
anonymous phone call from a man saying that the Veney brothers
were there.
0. And wh&l is your aunt's name?
MR* SOUbEi 1 objecto
MR* KAhRIT: You don't want to know the aunt1 s
MR. HOdHEi Put the aunt on to testify*
MR. NABRIT: X asked for the aunt’s name, Your Hon
THH COURT i Objection overruled, he can ask whac
her name was, and they wore there together as I understand it.
MR. bOUbbt He asked what the aunt said.
THH COURT* What the aunt's name wa3. I think you
miaunderstooa.
MR* SOl&Li* Oh, I ’m sorry*
THB WiTNdbb: My aunt’s name is Mrs* Hattie Burley,
Ml?. HAHRIT* Your witness.
CROSH EXAMINATION
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BY MR. MURPHYl
Q Miss Wallace, how long altogether were the officer
in the house?
A Prom tiie beginning?
Q\ Yes.
A lo the oral, 1 woulu say approximately twenty mln-
utea,
vi to X unuerstand you to say that the officers same
in the side door first?
A
Q
A
Y’ett,
a m wno ret them in?
One of the officers — what, let them in the side
uoor?
Q Yes, ma'am.
A My sister opened the first door ana one of the
officer opened the storm door.
U How long after did they first gained entrance did
they open tne front uoor?
A i'll say about half a minute or something like tha
approximately half a minute,
q Old X understand you to say, Miss Wallace, that on
the olficers were in you invited them to continue tnelr search
A After they tola us what happened my aunt £>t* id, wei;
wo know that the Veney hrotners aren't here so we have nothin]
to hide so let them look.
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187
Q At that point did the officer then go open the
front door and let the additional officers in?*
\ A Yea#
{* Did any of the officers personally tell you that
they had called in response to an anonymous call?
A Yes#
Cl And was that the gentleman in the white hat?
A It was the gentleman who told my aunt ana I* a
tall gentleman with a blue hat on#
MR# MURPHY» X have no further questions#
Thank you#
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR# NABRIT:
Q Hiss Wallace, was your aunt's statement to the
officers to let them look? Can you remember what was said,
can you give us the sense of what they said?
THE COURT* The Veney brothers were not there and
they had nothing to hide. That is what I understood her to say
BY MR# NABRIT:
Q Did she expressly tell them they could search or
what?
MR. HOUSE* X will object to that also, Your Honor#
MR# NABRIT: 1 will withdraw the question#
THE COURT* The problem is coming in as they came
in# I understood the problem as to your other witness let
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188
them upstairs.
MR. NABRITj With guns.
THE COURT: Qnoe people have entered In force the
fact, that a person thereafter consents to the search and Bays
we have nothing to hide with a lot of people with guns sfcandln
around, thl3 is probably what happened in most situations and
the question is whether, and I don*t know if Mr, Murphy is
going to defend it that way, cancels any impropriety,
MR. MURPHY: I think the officers should have guns
if they were going to search these houses,
THE COURT: All right, but if you are talking
about consent, if there is no consent, if there is no probable
cause, and X am not saying there isn't, if there is no probab
cause and there is an entry without showing the warrant and so
forth, and after they get in a couple minutes later they tell
the people what the basis is, I'm not sure whether you are ar
guing that they then saying you may search constitutes a waive:’
entry snc» if it does the fact that the officers have guns
may have something to do with the question of waiving. Of
course, if the officers are going to hunt these people they
must have guns, there is no question about that, nobody denies
that, if they have a right to come in and searoh they certain];
have a right to come in armed.
MR. MURPHY: I think under the circumstances in
each case I would certainly agree with that but the fact they
189
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have guns does not in and of Itself Initially vitiate any
possibility of consent,
THE COURT1 Ho, but tne question of consent may
eliminate certain damage^ as to the question, or If your are
arguing that the consent has any retroactive effect, then via
have to go into tne circumstances rather fully,
MR, NABRIf: Well, I have withdrawn the question.
Your Honor, X don't suppose it serves any purpose or not but
I did read a case tnat Dears on tne subject and I will try to
furnish it to you and counsel,
BY MR, NABRIT*
Q Will you tell us whether the statement by your
aunt was before or after tne officers entered the front door?
A It was before*
Q Ail right,
Bid anyone in the group of people in the house mak^
any protest about tne police coming in searching?
THE c o u r t* You mean that Bhe heard,
BY MR, NABRIT:
Q That you heard. Yes, airA
A I aon't know ...
Q Who was there?
A I)o you want me to name everybody?
Q Weil, did either of your two sisters make any objec
tions?
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A No.
Q Did Mrs. Barrick make any objections?
A Yos, she did.
Q Dio the officers ask your aunt or ascertain from
tier who she was before or during this conversation?
A \ Who Mrs. Barrick was?
Q No, no, who your aunt was.
A No. They aidn’t ask who anybody was. All that
they asked, did the Wallaces live here and where were the men.
They didn’t ask for anybody else’e name except my mother’s
name and my sister’s name and I when they were in the front
room.
*
A ho when Mrs. Burley, your aunt, made this state
ment the officers had not found out who she was?
A No.
Q And at the same time there waB another adult, Mrs.
Barrick, who was protesting?
A Yes.
MR. NABRIIs Thank you, that is all.
RE CROSS EXAMINATION S
BY MR. SOUSEj
Mrs. Barrick was a guest in the house?
A Y«b , she was.
Q She didn’t live there?
A No.
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MR. SOUSE: That is all,
(Witness excused,)
THE COURT* We will take a recess until two o’oloc
(Thereupon* at 1* 0 5 o*olock p,ra,* a reoess was
taken until R*00 o'clock p,m,)
THE COURT* bo you want to call another witness?
MR, MABRiTs Yes* Your Honor,
George Floy a,
THE oOURT* ho you want to put that stipulation inj?
HR, BEitRIHG* Yes* Your Honor,
IT it please the Court* at this time I would like
to enter this stipulation*
it is stipulated and agreed by and between counselL
lor the respective parties in the above-entitled cause that
no search warrants were secured in the Municipal Court of
Baltimore City in connection with the search of any home or
premises in an attempt to apprehend* capture or bring to Jus
tice the Veney brothers.
MR, HABftiT: I think the stipulation should be,
’or any other court,11
MR, MURPHY * We will so stipulate that aiter inves
tigation if that is found to be true,
MR* HiiARINa* Thank you*
MR* ukBRxi: Mi’* George Floyd,
(Thereupon, George J, Floyd wa3 called to the stand
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and sworn as a witness and, having been first duly sworn, was
examined and testified as follows;)
THE CLERK; Please state your name for the record?
THE WITNESS: George Joseph Floyd.
THE COURT; He said that no search warrant was
either sought or obtained?
MR, MURPHY; 1 think secured was the language,
MR, BEARING; Secured, We are subject to correct
later, Tour Honox*.
BY MR, NABRXT;
DIRECT EXAMINATION
I
Q
A
Q
A
work for
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Mr. Floyd, state your home addrese?
I live at 2204 Rosedale Street,
And your occupation, where do you work?
Well, I work for the Gas and Electric Company and
the State Office Building as a cook.
And you have just come from there, is that true?
1 just come from there.
What is your wlfe*s name, Mr, Floyd?
Barbara Floyd,
How old are you, sir?
Twenty five,
How, on January 4, 1 9 6 5, what time did you get up
in the morning?
A Oh, I got up around six thirty. < 31
193
Q And what did you do?
A I got up, washed up and went to work around seven
o'clock,
Q You left the house around seven o'clock?
A That's right.
Q Was anybody home when you left?
A wy wife was there,
Q What did you do all day?
A Well, I worked all day,
Q Well, during the day where did you work?
A I worked at the State Office Building, I left one
Job and went to my other,
Q What time did you leave the State Office Building?
A Oh, around quarter to six,
Q And then you went to the other Job?
A That's right,
Q What period of time were you at your other Job?
A Oh, I was there around 6 1I5 , 6*20, something like
that,
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Q Until when?
A I couldn't tell you exact. Until about
maybe 8 13 0 nine o'clock,
Q What did you do when you left there?
A Well, I went on ,,,
Q Where did you go?
nine o'clock.
U W
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A After X left work I went to 08*8 house on McKean
Avenue 1100 block, I stayed there for a short while, couldn't
tell you how long, and right after I left there I went home,
caught a cab and went home,
Q. caught a ta;ci cab and went home?
A That's right,
Q About what time did you get home?
A I'm not sure but I think it was around ten o'clock,
Q When you got out of the cab did you look at your
house?
A Yes, the front light was on,
Q Where i3 that light?
A That is tne porch light which I usually keep it of
Q What else did you observe? Describe to the Court
your own words what you observed when you went into the house?
A The porch light was on, the vestibule door was ahu
but the main door was open, the side of the door was the first
tning I saw as I walked in the house, that was open, the ,citche
light was on, the cellar door was open, the cellar light was
on and my dog was in the kitchen which had turned over every
thing, some trash, and the back door window was broke and tha
was — and the upstairs lignt was on. So, a3 soon a3 I saw t hj
I went next door, 1 & &
ii Let's go back a minute.
Describe what your front door — how many doors in
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front?
A I have a storm ooor.
THE COURT: He said his vestibule door was shut
and the main door was open. X think that is clear,
BY MR, NABRIT:
Q Which of the doors is the one that has the lock on
it?
A Well, the main door. There*s three doors there
counting the storm door.
Q How many of them have locks?
A The main door, just the one. The other ones just
have a knob.
THE COURT: And that is the one that was left open
THE WITNESS: That'b right.
BY MR. NABRIT:
Q What kind of dog is that?
A German Shepherd, police dog,
Q How old is he?
A About eight months,
Q What else upstairs, did you notice anything?
A Well, lights, the lights 1b the main thing, there
wasn't nothing broken, nothing like that, but I knew someone
had been there. There wasn't anything missing.
I talked to the lady next door and she tolu me what
happened.
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Q Now, dl d you subsequently get in touch with the
police?
A Yes, I dia,
* When was this?
A That same night,,
<* V.nat, ix anything, did the police tell you?
A Well, i haa & time getting them, they connected me
to Central ana XToiu Central to somewhere else and it seemed
like each on- woaia connect me with someone else and anyway I
got to the last officer, he tolo rae they were there and they h
to take action to what was, I mean, as far as the Veneys were
concerned because they — well, he put it this way, they would
be wasting the paxpayers* money to wait on the outside of the
house lor- the veneys and watch how much money they spend so
they had no other choice than to go into the house,
Qi Anu how long after you got homo did your wife come
A Imeii, sne came home immediately after I called her,,
Q About how much time elapsed?
A Oh, X think maybe twenty minutes or less,
^ Did you do anything In the house by way of straight;
ening it out between the time you got there and tne time your
| *7r;wife goc there/
A ho, Chut the doors, the closet doors. When she
got there we cleaned the kitchen. Well, see, when my dog came
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up I guess he probably ran straight to the kitchen because
there’s a boor between the dining room and the kitchen, ray dog
was in there, he messed the kitchen up and we cleaned that up
together*
MR* NABRITt Your witness*
GROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. SOUSE;
Q Mr. Floyd, you say you are twenty five, your wife
testified you were twenty two, but your proper age is twenty
five, is that correot?
A That*8 right,
Q Have you ever been convicted of any crimes?
A No. I have been on a disorderly conduct but I
haven’t served any time*
Q Now, when you got home you said the porch light wan
on?
A The porch light was on. The cellar light, too, an<
a couple others.
Q Who had left the house first, you or your wife?
A I was*
Q You left first?
A I was there first. i o p
Q Well, who left the house first?
THE COURT; He said he left at seven o'clock in
norning and his wife said she left in the afternoon*
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THE WITNESS* I left first.
BY MR. SOUSE*
Q You don't know whether your wife left the light on
or not, do you?
A She aon't have any reason to turn the porch light
on.
Q But you won't know whether she turned it on 02* not
A Weil, I uon't know but I don't believe she did,
Q Now, when you called up the police what officer di
you speak to?
A I don't Know. All I know is tney connected me froi
one officer to then another, from Central District to another
district. All 1 know I wlna up with one officer and I Icnov;
what he told me and. that was it.
Q fou didn't ask him hxs name?
A ,tNo, I didn't,
Q All these ofrlcers you talked to they all answered
byygiving their naue,uian't they?‘V
A Well, I told them my house had been raided and I
was supposed to call about it. Sc the first thing one would
do they connected me — I cabled at Central.
Q sir, Floyd, bnat is all very nice but didn't this
officer answer the pnone by giving his name?
A He gave his name but I couldn't tell you what the
name was, that's all.
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Q Did he tell you what precinct he was in?
A I think he did.
Q What precinct was it?
A I couldn't tell you.
Q When was this?
MR. NABRIT: When was what?
MR. SOUSEs When was it he had the conversation.
THE WITNESS t It was right after I found ray house
the way X did, the same night.
BY MR. SOUSE:
Q The same night, what time?
A About ten minutes after I got through talking to -
a little bit more than that, I*d say about ten or fifteen
after I got through talking to the lady next door.
Q Well, I'll ask you again, what time was it?
A I don't remember the time.
Q You don't remember the time?
A I don't remember.
THE COURTx Can you say about?
THE WITNESS s Oh, maybe a little after ten maybe.
THE COURT: You said you got home around ten, is
that right?
THE WITNESS: Something like that.
THE COURT: Well, how long after you got home?
THE WITNESS: Well, after I got home I stayed to
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my house around five or six minutes before I went next door to
the lady and I talked to her*
THE COURT: And then you called the police before
or after you called your wife?
THE WITNESS: I talked to the lady next door and
she told me what had happened, she told me the police told me
to call them, which X did* I called my wife first*
THE COURT: You called the police before your wife
got home?
THE WITNESS: I called my wife first and then I
called the police*
THE COURT: Eld you call the police before your wlE
got home or after she got home?
THE WITNESS: No, 1 called before she home.
THE COURT: Ail right* I think that will give you
a closer time.
BY NR. SOUSE:
Q Now, you say your wife wasn't h 2me when you called
the police?
A No, ray wife wasn't home,
Q When your wife got home did you tell her what the
police said?
A Yes, I did,
Q And what, if any, comment did she have about Ghat?
A Well, she didn't t.ink the whole thing was right,
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she didn*t agree with it,
Q But you did tell her that you talked to the police„
is that z*ight?
A Yub, I did,
<4 Did you at any time after that contact anybody
else with reference to this episode?
A Yes, I called ray lawyer up and talked with him.
<4 And what is his name?
A Robert r , Cohen,
<4 Robert R, Cohen?
A That's right, d-o-h-e-n.
Q When was it you called him?
A The same night after I called the police,
<4 has your wife there when you called him?
A No, she wasn't,
Q That was before she got horae, too, wasn't it?
A That's right,
Q Now, who was it who cleaned up — was there any
glass tnere, was there any glass left in the door?
A There was glass on the outside of the door, maybe
a couple pieces on the inside,
Q But there was more on the outside?
A That's right, * 4 0
Q WaB there any glass in the frame?
A Yes, it was, a couple pieces, small pieces.
202
Q Where was this glass that was on the outside, was
it on the back porch or between the storm door?
A It waa on bhe porch and between the storm door,
k Now, you said you talked to the lady next door,
what waa her name?
(i A I Torget her name.
7 k Your next-door neighbor?
S A That's right, Just movea up there.
<1 Q Where does she live, what is her address?
10 A 2203.
11 k 2 2 0 3. la that right next door or a couple doors
12 away?
13 THu COURT t What is your number?
14 THB WITNBbbi 2202, 2202,
15 THa COURT* Which ia your number?
1(1 THE WITNB&bI Mine is 2204 so hers is probably
17 2202.
IS BY MR . bOUSd*
l i t Q When you talked to her aid you talk to her husband,
2 0 too?
21 A Yes, I did.
2 2 k What did Mrs. Alston tell you? Was it Mrs, Alston?
22 A Yes.
2 4 Q You are sure that was her name?
2 5 A That's right.
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Q What did she tell you?
A She told me she heard a noise in the yard, 3he
went to the front — let's see, she went to the front, she saw
a man getting out of the car, cranking up something, which was
a shotgun or rifle, anc a he saw these cars ana trucks all aroui
the house, and then they went in my house*
Q b h e told you they went in the house?
A Yes, she die.
Q, hhe told you she Eaw them go in the house?
A Yes, and they also went in her house, six of them,
about six*
Q I a m particularly interested in what she tola you.
A That's what she told me,
Q. Now, you said that she tola you that the police we:
in your house?
A That's right*
14 Anu she tolu yo u she saw them, is that right?
A That's right.
Q Did she fell you how they got into your house?
A Wo, she didn't. All she told me was she heard a
noise, they went up on the front, they went in the back, 3he
told me they went in the back, too, which they did because my
gate was down. The back ana the front, they were all around
the house. i
Well, did 3he tell yo u whether they went in the
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rront door or the back door?
A No, she didn't tell me which way they went in
first but she told me they went in*
Q Did she tell you the way they went in second?
A All 1 know is she tola roe they were at the front
and they were at the back.
Q She told you they were at the back?
A
Q
They were at both places.
And she told you she saw them at the back?
MB. NABHX1: Objection, Your Honor.
THE OQURTi This is cross examination. The wltnesi
has testified that he first said they went in the house and
then on further questioning he said she saw them go in and he
said both the second time. I think he can go on with cross
examination for a reasonable length of time, I hope.
BY MB. SOUSE:
/>H How, she said she saw them xn the back of the house
A At the front and at the back.
Q I am talking about the back now, she told you she
saw them at the back?
A That's right.
Q Are you certain of that?
♦ 4 3
A Hull?
Q Are you sure she told you that?
A I think she did, she told me a lot.
Q What else did she tell you?
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A Che told me about the police came up in her house
and they just barges in, they asked who lived there, tnoy
showed a couple photos of the Veney brothers and a few other
things which 1 Qian1t pay too mucn attention to, I wanted to
find out what was what*
Q ho you know the Veney brothers?
A ho, I don't know nothing about them. I wouldn't
know them if X seen them.
Q, This police officer who you said you talnea to but
whose name you can't remember, did he tell you whether or not
he haa been to your house?
A Yes, he told me they were there,
A I cicn't ask you about they, I asked you about, did
he tell you he was there?
A Wo, he didn't say he was there.
Q This dog that you say is about eight months old,
where did you keep him? ; 4 4
A I keep him in the cellar?
MR. SOUbii: That is all.
PJiBIPJiCT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NABRIT*
Q Mr. Floyd, where was this telephone that you used
call your wife and ...
THE COURT* What difference does that make? If
205
you have any point to make
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\\ MR. NABRIT* I was Just trying to clarify the time
\element. If Your Honor Is not Interested,
THE COURT* He said he called them before his wife
got home,
BY MR, NABRIT:
Q Was the phone In your house?
A No, It wasn't. It was at the phone booth across
the street,
Q Were you In court this morning when your wife test
fled and Mrs. Alston testified today?
A No, I wasn't,
MR, NABRIT* That Is all,
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR, SOUSE*
Q Well, now who called you to come up here?
A My wife called me,
Q So you have talked to your wife since she testified
this morning, you talked to her?
A Yes, I did
MR. SOUSE* No further questions,
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NABRIT:
Q Did you talk to her about what she testified about
in court this morning? \
No. She said a couple words over the phone which
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she told me I had to be here*
MR. NABRIT* That is all.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. SOUS^t
ti Your wife said nothing to you ...
A Nothing about the court, what went on here.
Q Did anybody discuss what happened here this morning,
anything?
A No, I Just got in the door.
MR. SOUSE* I have no further questions.
MR. NABRiT* Nothing further.
(Witness excused.)
MR. NABRITt Mrs. Rita Miles, please.
(Thereupon, Rita Miles was called to the stand and
sworn as a witness and, having been first duly sworn, was examj*
ined and testified as follows*)
THE CLERK* State your name for the record, please
THE WITNESS* Mrs. Rita Miles.
THE CLERK* Mrs. Rita Miles, take the stand, pleas^.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NABRIT*
Q State your address, please?
A 1140 Shields Place,(?) < 4 5
Q Who do you live there with?
A Myself and five children.
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Q Arc you employed?
A Yes,
Q Where uo you work?
A i work at the Womens Hospital.
Q Now, do you remember last New Year's Eve, December
31# 1984?
A Yes, I do*
Q Where were you tnat aay?
A I was at home*
Q Did something unusual happen?
A Yes.
Q What time?
A Just about 12s45. I was sitting in my kitchen. me
and a girl friend across tne street, she lives across the
street from me, we were sitting in the kitchen talking.
Q Go slowly.
What is her name?
A Johnson.
Q What happened?
A We were sitting in my kitchen talking and first X
had been across to ncr house and then I left her house and cam
over to my house and we were sitting in the kitchen talking*
So about quarter to one I heard banging on my door
and I Jumped up out of the seat to the door to see what it waa
I opened my door and there was police out there on the steps
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they said. Police, open up# X said, what's going on.
So the police just came on in and they went on
through and when the otner officer came in ...
<4 How many officers came in?
A a don’t, Know, it was so many', it was seven or
eight, X guess.
Q nnd did they say anything to you?
A Ine ones that came in with the guns, they didn't
Bay anything, they Kept going through the house, A colored
officer came in and he told me to stand on the side and I have
a chair at my winnow ...
Q I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you.
A I have a chair sitting at my window in the living
room and he told me to stand there.
X asked him what was going on and he said they had
a tip from one of my neighbors that the Veney brothers was at
ray house. I said X didn't Know anything about the Veney
brothers and he said, you have a daughter named Tina? I said
I have a daughter and her name is Theresa I said, ahe's only
fifteen years old.
He said, we have a tip from one of your neighbors
that your daughter was going with one of the Veney brothers.
X said, my daughter don't know anything about any Veney
brothers, I never heard of them before. So he said, well, we
got a tip and we have to search the house.
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So in the meantime I told him my sows was upstairs,,
They went on up — he told me to stand where I was at in the
living room, so 1 stayed theree
Q tonile this conversation was going on what were the
other policemen doing?
A They were going all through the house and my girl
frieno, she got up from the kitchen and came in the front room,,
She said to the officers there was somebody around there that
didn't like us.
THE COURT: She said what?
(The answer was read by the reporter.)
ThE COURT* The girl friend said that somebody
down there ...
MR. NABRIT* Around there,
THE WITNESS* In the neighborhood, that called the
police.
BY MR. NABRIT*
Q Now, tell me what the officers were doing, what
rooms did they go into?
A I remained in the living room, they went through
the house. My two sons, oldest sons \<as upstairs in bed, my
youngest son was in the back room. So they went upstairs and
my ...
i
k Did you go upstairs at all?
A No, I didn't go up. They told me to stem where I
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was.
Q How many floors to the house?
A It’s only a two-story house.
Q Do you have a basement or cellar?
A Yes, I have a cellar.
Q Did the officers go there that you know?
A Huh?
Q Do you know whether or not the officers went there1
A They went in the cellar also after they went up
stairs. They came down and went in the cellar. I told them I
had a switch on the side of the wall so they could turn it on
to go down.
Q Light switch?
A Yes.
Q Did you observe the officers do anything else?
What else happened, in other words?
A Well, they went upstairs — after they went upstairi
my sons were in bed and they came down, ray sons, they came
down, this officer he askea me my name, the one that stood in
the front room with me,
Q After they searched-they asked you your name?
A No, Just this one, the other ones didn’t say any
thing to me.
149Q Go ahead.
A He asked me my nz*e, I told him, Rita Miles and
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he wrote that down. He asked me who lived there and I told
him the children and myself. And he asked me where I worked
and X told him.
arid he aa*ed me if my eon had a blaok leather coat
he asked me whose coat was that hanging in there and I said
it was my son's coat.
do 1 said to him X ooulon't imagine somebody doing
anything as airty as that to me and he said, well, that happens
in every neignborhooa, you Know, somebody may not like you.
Q Was your aaugnter — Theresa is her name?
A YeB, we call her Toni.
Q Does she go to senool?
A Yes.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Wnere?
She goes to i^U.
What graae?
She's in the 9th graae.
What happened after that, how long did they stay?
They stayed about twenty five minutes.
Well, descrlb- what happened? Did anything elseQ
happen?
A After they went in the cellar they came back up and
Bhowed me two pictures of the brothers and I told him I never
seen them before. k >(
So they got ready and they left and the officer
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me I had a nice place and told me to keep my doors locked and
I told him I will.
So after they went off, after they left I went to
the door and all these police cars and big police trucks was
out there and there was a lot of people out there looking,t
So I closed the door and went back In the house.
Q Now, your friend from across the street, was she
In the house with you all this time?
A Yes,
»
Q All the time the police were there ahe wa3 there?
A She was there.
MR. NABRIT: Your witness.
MR. SOUSE* One moment, please, Your Honor.
No questions. Thank you.
MR. NABRIT: All right, you may step down,
(Witness excused.)
MR. NABRIT: Mrs, Maggie Shepperd, please.
(Thereupon, Maggie Shepperd was called to wie stanc
as a witness and, having been first duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows:)
THE CLERK: State your name for the record?
THE WITNESS: Maggie Shepperd.
THE CLERK: Take the stand, please, Mrs. Shepperd.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
i 51BY MR. NABRIT:
214
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
. Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
grandson?
A
Where do you live, Mrs, Shepperd?
2003 North Monroe Street.
How long have you lived there?
Eighteen years.
Who lives there with you?
My grandson*
What is his name?
Hoscoe Cooper.
Ana his age, how old is he?
rorty six.
and how old are you, Mrs. Shepperd?
Seventy two.
how long nave you Uvea in Baltimore?
Over i'lfty years,
Now, Mrs. Sheppera, what is the situation with your
What?
1’sll ua about your grandson.
A My grandson is a sick veteran.
MR* SOUSH: Is what? I am sorry, I didn't hear thrt.
lHc. dOURi* Is a sick veteran.
Btf MR. NABRITi
Q What is wrong with nim?
A Mental.
Q Mental?
215
1 A Yes.
Q You mean he was In the war?
A Yes.
Q When was that?
A In '44.
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Q Do you get a — who supports him moneywise?
A The Veterans. He asked them.
Q Do you get money from them?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember what happened on Wednesday, the
6th of January this year?
A This year, yes.
Q Do you remember that Wednesday?
A Yes.
Q Start in the morning and tell us what you did that
1(5 day?
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A Well, I went down to the Veterans and got down
there about nine o'clock, then we got ...
Q Was anybody with you?
A Yes.
Q Who was that?
A Miss Florence Snowden.
Q Where did the two of your go? 1,1
A Where did I go?
Q Where did you and Miss Snowden go then?
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A Yes.
Q You mean he was In the war?
A Yes.
Q, When was that?
A In '44.
(i q Do you get a — who supports him money wise.?
7 A The veterans. He asked them.
s Q Do you get money from them?
A Yes.
10 Q Do you remember what happened on Wednesday, tne
11 6th of January this year?
This year, yes.
Do you remember that Wednesday?
Yes.
Start in the morning anu tell us what you dia that
i<> day?
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A Well, I went down to the Veterans and got down
there about nine o'clock, then we got ...
Q Was anybody with you?
A Yes.
Q Who was that?
A Miss Florence Snowden.
Q Where did .the two of your go? y '
A Where did I go?
Q Where did you and Miss Snowden go then?
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A Went to the V.A., to the Veterans.
Q What time did you leave the V.A?
A Well, I guess we might have left there about, I
guess about half past ten or maybe a little bit later because
when X got home it was half past eleven. We come right out
and got a cab and when X got back to 20 03 North Monroe it was
half past eleven,
Q Now, who was in the taxi cab?
A Nobody but me and Miss Snowden, Florence Snowden.
Q Where die the cab go first?
A Huh?
Q Where did the cab go first?
A Where dia he go first?
Q Yes.
A Went to her house first, went to 1913 Druid Hill
Avenue first, then he took me from Druid Hill Avenue to 2003
North Monroe Street. I gueBB that*s about half past eleven whji
he got me home and about twenty minutes to twelve a bell rung
and I was in the kitchen cooking chicken, and I was a little
long getting to the door and a bam coiae on the door. And when
I went to the door there was four police in uniform and a
plalnclothesman with a light coat on, anc. when I opened the doj:
I said, what's the matter, have you got a warrant? He pushed
me against the wall and walkea on in and walked on back.
Well, when X went back to the dining room and looki
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again he had tuy grandson, one police on one arm and the other
on the other arm taking him out without no hat and no coat and
1 said, don't you taa.e my hoy out there witnout a coat ana nat
on. Well, they uio give him time to get nxs nat ana cost and
X tala — he taia, you get reauy ana go, I'm going to lock you
up. and X said, wnat nave i done for you to Iock me up?
He saia, I'la teii you when you get over there where I’m taki
you, and then he give me time to get my hat and coat on and 1
said, can I use ray telephone? ho, he said, you can't use no
telephone here,
Q Who was this you were talking to?
A That plaineiothesman witn the long, light coat on.
Whoever he was. X don't know who he was,
<4 What color was the coat?
A Light coat, ana these police come in and they had
their rifles with them, had their rifles pointed Just like
that, (Indicating), four of them. The plaineiothesman, he
didn't, neve any, he aian't have any rifle, but the other four
had them.
Ano then they took me out, I Bean my neighbor on
the other side of me and X told her to please to get word to
Miss Florence bnowden to come up, they were locking me up.
And then when I got out there I asked to use the
phone and tney woulun't leave me use it.
Q Kow, wait a minute. When you left your house how
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did you go, did you go in a car?
A Yes, In a radio car,
Q Who was in the car?
A Another police and the gentleman that wa3 driving,
whoever he was, and he said to me, if you didn't lie so much,
he said, you wouldn't have to go out here, I said, lie about
what, what have I done?, I said, and he took me on out there
and took me up to the rail thare somewhere and some man was
asking me .
THE COURT* Did they take the grandson, too?
THE WITNESS* My grandson, they took hii» too,
THE COURT* In the same car?
THE WITNESS* In the same car,
THE COURT* You didn't mention that he wa3 in the
car,
THE WITNESS* In the same car,
BY MR. NABRIT*
Q Now, they took you to the police station?
A They took me to the police station,
Q When you went into the door of the police station,
what happened first?
A Well, they was questioning my grandson ana I said
don't question him, I said, because he’s not able to answer
for hlsself, question me and I'll tell you all about him,
Q What were the questions?
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A They asked his age and where he lived and who was
taking care of him and that Is about all they asked him, Then
they searched him there, took off his belt and his tie pin,
took that off and then they took him back and when they took
him back I said, don’t hurt that boy because he's a sick vaters
I said to them.
Then they commenced on me, asked me my name, where
I lived, how long I been In Baltimore, on like that.
Then they took me back and locked me up in a cell
and wouldn’t even let me take my pocketbook in there with me.
Said they’d put it in the hall ana nobody is going to take it,
see, and then they took me from there ,,,
Q Bo you know where Roscoe was at this time?
A He’s locked up, Roscoe was already locked up in
some place back there. Then someone told me to go in this root
some room back there, then I asked to use the phone there.
They ted two phones and the police say they was looking for
a long call or something. Then another tall police come in ...
Q Did they allow you to use the telephone?
A No, they wouldn’t leave me U3e it. Then another
police come in and said, mom, I didn’t bring you up here to
hurt you, I brought you up here to ask some information. 1 saL
information about what? I said, I ain*t got no information, I
don't know anything about even what I'm locked up about.
Then I heard him 3ay, he told this other police, two
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police to go down and get Miss Snowden and bring her here but
don't go by yourself, he said to her, and that's all he said
to her.
<4 Who xb hiss Snowaen.
A hiss Florence Snowden.
Q, How old is she, do you know?
A Huh?
Q bo you know about how old Miss Snowden is?
A wo, X don't know. X don't know how old Florence ii
I don't know, 1 don't exaotly know.
THE COURT* bo you know how old she is?
MRl NABRIT* hiss Snowden is seventy oud years
herself.
THE COURTi Is she the one who went down ...
MR. NAJbRiT* She‘s the one who went to the V.A,
THE COURTi She is the one who went down to the
V.A.
MR. SOUSE: Your Honor, I think this is very lmpor
tant and I think they ought to put all their witnesses on.
THE COURT* She heard that, Misa Snowden waan't
there. She is the one that can testify to that.
MR. oOUSE: Just so we get them all, sir.
The. WITNeSSj And they went out and left all my
lights on in the house until nine o'clock that night. The
neighbors couldn't get in, they couldn't even turn my lights o
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And they went In every room in my house, he even
tore my front room bed all to pieces, took the spread off and
everything, and looked underneath the bed and everything like
that and loft my lights on until nine o'clock that night,
BY MR, NABRITj
Q They searched while you were still back at tne
house?
A That's right,
Q Bid you see the officers go in different rooms in
your house?
A Huh?
Q When they first came in aid you see where they wen 4
in your house?
A The plainclothesman went on back to the kitchen,
they commenced in the kitchen and went on upstairs. Then he c<>
downstairs and went on in the cellar and tore that cellar all
to pieces, all to pieces,
Q Y/hat do you mean by that?
A I mean he went in everything, took everything out,,
the papers and everything and throwed them down on the floor,
out of the cupboards, papers out of the cupboards, I suppose
they was, I don't know how they got out there,
Q Now, when you were down at the police station and
the officers said — you said one officer sent another officer
to go get Miss Snowden?
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A That*s right.
Q What happened after that?
A after wise onowoen, he didn’t say anything more
after kiss bnowden came.
ie i«o, no, after wiey eunc fox* her?
a n- aaheu mo wnat went on, what conversation viaa In
the taxi, x sale, wnut conversation, X sale, we wac talking
about the business that went on when I went down to the
Veterans about my boy’s allotment.
f -
X'Hh COURTa about your boy’s what?
i‘ih. ilABRIT; Allotment,
inn COURT; Allotment.
B¥ MR. HABRxf:
h wny hau you anu kiss onowaen gone to the.V.A?
a bhe vaent there with me to tena to some business
about the allotment.
^ What were you trying to ao?
A ves,
W, wnat were you trying to do?
A About money for ray boy.
Ci how, you tola tne officer — what did the officer
say? iou said he was questioning you, what did he asic you and
what did you say?
A He asked me what conversation did you use coming
up in the cab? 1 said, I didn’t know any conversation more
than she was talking about my good boy. I said, I didn’t know
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any conversation wc had talked about*
Q What else did he ask you, the policeman ask you?
A bp to the jail?
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a nor ever It way, he don't usk me anything else
then, 'Ihey he went out ana said to Miss Snowden, and Mrs,
Mitchell was out there, ana said 1 haa some irlencis out there,
ana that's aucut ail he sale to me cut there,
W Did he say anything to you about the Veney brother^?
A About wnat?
'<J ihs Veney brothers,
A ho, he never said nothing to me aoout no Veney
brothers,
<4 Diu the policeman »,,
A he don't say notning to me about no Veney brother^,
h Did he as* you whether or not you ware talking about
police or police being klliea in the taxi?
A He asked me what was we talking about in the taxi,
<4 what d a you tell him?
A I told him we was talking about the business that
went on in the Veterans, that's what I told him, and it has
never mentioned the Veney brothers or whatever their names are,,
And Miss Snowdon or me never mentioned any' names either,
<4 Do you Know anything about it?
A I don't know a thing about them. I wouldn't know
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them If I fell over them, I don't know a thing about them#
Q Ail right# what happened after the policeman told
you that ifs, Mitchell and Mibb Snowden were there?
h Weil# then he come and let me out# let me out and
oorao on out in tne hall,
i
Q dia he tell you you could go?
a Yea,
h do you know of anything else the policeman said
to you?
A I can't think of anything else he said to me,
y how did you leave there?
a toe lert — Mrs, Mitchell and them brought me home,
k how long were you at the Jail, at the station?
A Well# 1 guess X got up there about — I guess it
was a little after twelve when I got up there# I guess# and it
was after two before X left there# I'm sure,
k have you ever been arrested before?
A ho,
k In all your life?
A No,
Q Have you ever been in trouble with the law at all?
A No# indeed, no, no indeed# the first time I been
in anything liKe that in my whole life# first time,
Q How about your son# you grandson# Rosooe?
A What about him?
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1 f t Has Hoscoe ever been in trouble with the law?
•) A Well, he's been in trouble with the law with some
boys, as a boy.
4 ft How rang ago was that?
f> A Hull?
(> ft How long ago waB that?
7 A That was when he waB seventeen years old?
s
Q How oia is he now?
!) k if he was seventeen years old, that's been a right
10 good many years.
11 ft How old is Hoscoe today, do you know about?
12 A Foi'ty six.
1.1 ft And ho hasn't been in any trouble since then?
14 A Ho.
15 ft is Roeoce sole to work?
10 A ho, indeed, he is totally disabled.
17 ft JAyea he have any other relative except you?
18 A With me?
19 ft hots Roscoe have any other relatives?.
20 A No. His mother, father and ali are dead.
21
f t And you look after him?
\>‘> A That's right.
22 f t How closely do you have to look after Hoscoe?
24 A Well, Hoscoe don't — he hasn't been in the street
25 at night since »44 and when he goes out in the day he might go
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up there to the drug store and stand in the door and wait unt
he comeB back. He don't go out anywhere by hissulf,
Q When did Roscoe get out of the police station?
A Inc same time X ala.
Vi How, did you go down to the Mayor’s office alter
this?
A Right from the Jail, the thing where X was, yes,
I went right down there then.
Q What time did you get to the Mayor's office?
A bown to tne Mayor ' s oiTice,
h What iiappened down at the Mayor’s oiTice?
A What happened? Well, we was sitting there and we
was talking around and I don’t know that anything happened,
Q hid you see the Mayor?
A No.
Q Did you talk to anybocy who was with you?
A Miss Snowden, Mrs, Mitchell.
Q Who else, anybody else?
A Lot's sec I think Mrs. Mitchell's son was with th<
Clarence.
Q That is Clarence Mitchell III, the State Assembly
man?
A Yes.
Q The State Legislator?
A Yes,
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MR. NABRITt Your witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY m . SOUSE:
<4 Now, Mrs. Shepperd, didn't you talk to the State's
Attorney for Baltimore City down at the City Nall?
A I don't know the State's Attorney from anybody els
I don't know him.
Q Mr. i4oylan?
A I don't know him.
Q You didn't talk to Mr. Moylan?
A I didn't talk to anybody. I thought it was the
police there, that's all I talked to.
Q At the City Hall, the Mayor's office?
A No, not me.
Q And you didn't tell Mr, Moylan that you knew him?
A Of course, I didn't. I don't know Mr. Balden.
Some gentleman comes up there and shook hands with me but I
don't know him,
Q Mr. Moylan?
A I don't know .him. Whatever his name 1b , I don't
know him.
THE COURT: She seems to have the name wrong. Do
you know Mr, Moylan?
THE WITNESS No, sir, 1 don't know him. There was
a gentleman there talking to me and Miss Snowden, if that was
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him* He wasn’t talking to me particular, he was talking to
both of U3»
BY MR* SOUSE:
0. And didn't you tell him that you knew him and that
he knew you?
A No, indeed, no*
Q You are certain of that?
A I am certain of it, yes, air,
Q Now, dlu Mias Snowden tell him that?
A I aon't know what Mias Snowden told him* I wasn't
paying that much attention* 1 don't know what Mias Snowden
told him.
q - Miss Snowden is Mrs, Juanita Jackson's aunt, isn't
she?
A Aunt?
Q Isn't she relatca to her?
A Yes*
Q All right, how is she related to her?
A To Mrs, Mitchell?
Q That's rignt.
A X guess that is Mrs* Mitchell's aunt*
Q That is what I said*
A Yes*
H And tors. Mitchell and Miss Snowden came
police station together, didn't they?
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l A That*8 right, we all came together,
Q You came with the police I thought?
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A Come with the police?
k lea*
A Mo, indoeu,
liii. COURT: 1 am not sure if you ...
THKWWxTMEHS ; Mo, indeed,
THE COURTS You are too fast for her. You have
got her back at the police station now. She’s still at City Hall*
MR, SOikCt She old awfully well on direct. Your
Honor,
THE COURTS Ail right,
MR, NAhRxT: Your Honor, 1 think serious consider
ation ought to be given to the age of the witness by counsel.
Pardon me for sitting. Your Honor, in addressing the Court,
THu COURT: All right,
MR, HABRXT: Your Honor, I think that — I mu3t
request that counsel give appropriate, definite consideration
to the age of the witness to make sure that 3 h e understands
the questions,
THE COURT: It is futile cross examination, the
Court has concluded that she doesn’t, and my impression v;a3
that 3‘ne didn’t understand the question, so I think you had
better clear up what you want to clear up, what conversation
you are talking about.
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BY MR, SOUSE*
Q New, Miaa Snowden and Mrs, Mitcnell came to the
police station to see you* they came together, didn't they,
down to the police station?
A I think they did. When X seen them they were
together, X was hack there in the room,
Q You were back there ir. the room with the police
officer?
A With somebody, I don't know who he was, X guess
it was an officer,
Q Bid he have a uniform on?
A X think he did,
Q Well, then he was a police officer?
MR, NABRIT: He is arguing with the witness,
THE COURT* Mr. Souse, that is not the way to be
successful in this court.
Go ahead,
MR, SOUSE* I don't understand, Your Honor.
THE COURT* Go ahead. Don't argue with her. She
said she was talking to a man who had a police officer's uni
form on, and you say then he must have been a police officer.
There is no use arguing with her, you have got the point you
want, go ahead to the next point,
BY MR, SOUSE* < £ 3
230
Q Now, you w re in a taxi cab earlier that day with
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KIbb Snowclena isn't that correct?
A That's right«
Q And didn't Miss Snowden say to you that — didn't
sne say something about you were a 4’ooi or you were foolish?
A Four?
The, COURT* 1 am not sure she is hearing you be-
cause when she repeats your question sne repeats it wrong every
time,
b* MR, SOUSE*
Q Didn't Miss Snowden say to you that you were a fool
or you were foolish?
A That sne was foolish, X don't remember her saying
to me I was foolish,
<i Didn't sne say — didn't you say, I wouldn't call
you that, I wisn X hadn't taken you aown to the Veterans with
me?
A I can't remember Florence saying that to me, I
really don't,
l Q Did you tell her you wi3h you hadn't taken her with
you?
THE COURT*
Mr., SOUSE*
THE COURT*
MR. SOUSE*
THE WITNESS*
When?
In the taxi cab.
We are still in the taxi cab?
Still in the taxi cab,
I might have said that to her$ raigh'
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have aald lta I don't; know,
Q You might have aald that to her, and didn't aha
aay to you, you wouldn't have gotten anything II I hadn't been
with you?
A woman‘t nave got anything? No, she didn't aay th^t
to me,
NR, NABrU.li ubjeot to the relevancy of thia line
of questioning,
liiu dOUR'fi 1 presume it la leading up to something.
It is obvious that these immediate questions have no materiality
or relevancy but 1 can't imagine that they are being asked if
they are not leading up to something, and we have to give him
a little time to develop something,
BY MR. bOUSBs
Q Now, didn't Mrs, bnowden aay to you, " That fool
son of yours
A J?ool son?
Q "...when he gets some liquor in him, you know he
ehot a policeman?"
A No, no, she did not, bnot a police, no, she did
not say it, no, sir, she dia not,
Bid you have any conversation about shooting any
police ?
i 71A No, X aid not,
Q Did you hear anyone at the Mayor's office say that
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there was some conversation about shooting a policeman?
A No, I did not hear It.
Q And did you tell anyone In the Mayor's office thai;
the only thing you said was that you were glad you had a good
boy who wouldn't shoot a policeman?
A No, sir, I did not say that.
Q All right,
A I did not say It.
Q Now, this car driver, the cab driver that you had
when you came back from the Veterans, did you have any conver
sation with him?
A I ain't had no conversation with him, not a soul,
I didn't open my mouth to him.
Q Did he say anything to you?
A No Indeed he didn't say anything to me.
Q And did you know hia?
A Know him? No Indeed I didn't know him.
Q Had you ever Been him before?
A I have never seen that bird, that boy before, never
In my life.
MR, SOUSE* That 1b all, thank you,
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NABRITt
Q When you got out of the taxi cab, Mrs. Shepperd,
did you pay the driver?
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A Yee.
Q Hov; much we a the fare?
A file fare, let me ace, what hid I pay that man?
x gxve the uou -jv<r for a txp, x uun‘v know* I think he charged
me u uoxxax*, x think he charged me something like that,
1 thin* he uxu, ouw x know x gave hxw i?uf for a tip, l think
he charged iue epy;, something like that*
nxu «e say anything to you about the fare?
Thu COURT ; About what?
iui, ihuiiiXi.; Rare, the fare, the taxi fare,
x witnuraw that.
no further questions*
(Witness excused*)
THE COURT* Are you going to calx MiBS Snowden?
ill, NAiiKxT* X woula like, if Your Honor's scheduli
would permit a five minute reoesB, 1 have put on several
witnesses ana 1 would like to .*,
Ilia COURT* Well, that is all right but I think yi
had better call Miss Snowaen. I think we ought to hear from
Hiss onowden.
MR. NABRITj Ail right.
THE COURT: We will take a short recess.
(Recess.)
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MR. NABRIT: Mrs. Florence Snowden.
Thereupon
MRS. FJ-ORENCE SNOWDEN
was called as a witness for and on behalf of the plaintiffs
and, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified
as follows:
THE CLERK: State your full name.
THE WITNESS: Mrs. Florence Snowden.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NABRIT:
Q Where do you live, Mrs. Snowden?
A 1930 Druid Hill Avenue.
Q How long have you lived there?
A Twenty years.
Q What is your age?
A Seventy-two. It will be seventy-three the
nineteenth of this month.
Q Where were you bora?
A B o m in Baltimore City =
Q How long have you lived in the City?
A Lived in Baltimore all my life, seventy-two
years.
Q Do you know Mrs. Maggie Sheppard?
A I do, yes.
Q How long have you known her?
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A I've been knowing her since 1917 when we met
together in Bethel Irving Church as church workers, and been
friends ever since, like sisters.
Q Do you belong to any community groups?
A I am president since 1937 of Northwest
Residential Protective Association, and our aim was to
dispresent taverns on Druid Hill Avenue, McCullough Street
and Madison Avenue in northwest Baltimore, and that has been
my activity as a social worker.
Q How about church?
A In the church I'm in the Missionary Society and
president of one of the clubs and a regular attendant.
Q And do you know Mrs. Sheppard in any of those?
A I know that Mrs. Sheppard since her son has
been disabled, she hasn't been able to attend church
regularly because she stays home with him, and I pay her
church dues for her every Sunday, and she is a member, active
member through her financial support to the Missionary
Society and the church proper.
Q Now, do you remember January 6, 1965?
A I do.
Q You remember that?
A Yes.
Q Did you see Mrs. Sheppard that day?
A That's right.
3
Q When was that?
A Mrs. Sheppard called me the night before and
asked me would I go with her dc*wn to the Veterans’ Administra
tion to see about an increase in her son's allotment.
When you say her son, who do you mean?
Roscoe Cooper.
And she calls him her son?
That’s right.
Is that her grandson?
That's actually her grandson.
All right.
She’s had him since he was three years old.
died.
All right. Now, what happened when you saw
She got a cab at her door and came to my door,
1930 Druid Hill Avenue, and we got in the cab and we went to
the Veterans' Administration, and that was about ten o'clock.
The appointment was for ten o'clock.
Q Did you go somewhere else?
A No, we went first to the bank. The bank is
her administration, I think. Her checks comes through the
bank, but she has to go the Veterans' Administration for an
increase.
Q And that's what you did that day?
A That's what vre did that day.
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Her daughter
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her?
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Q And who did you see there?
A I saw the lawyer for the Veterans'. 1 can't
remember his name. It was not name, and his secretary--
q And how long were you there?
A We were there, I guess, about a-half-a-hour.
About eleven o'clock or a little after we came out.
Q And this was the business discussed there?
A That was our business, yes.
Q Now, what was your role in that meeting?
A My role, was in that meeting when such words as
rehabilitate himself and like as that I know the meaning
better than she would, end he knowed, the lawyer knowed that
he was, the medical report, he's one hundred per cent
disability.
Q So you were there to help your friend out?
A That's right.
Q Then did you all get in some kind of a little
argument?
A No, no, just when we came out, there was a
delay, there was a little delay on giving her two tons of
coal, and I was talking for the coal delivery right away.
If not I'd have to advance it for her.
Q You mean to the lawyer?
A To the lawyer, for the administration, to the
Veterans 1
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Q And did she go along with that or what?
i A She said, "Well, you know, I'll wait," and I
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said, "Well, you wait for two weeks, and you can't go without
coal for two weeks. I'll put it In and pay for it, and
4 they'll pay me," but they did right away the next day put the
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coal in.
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q I see. And you were kind of put out about
7
that?
s
A Yes.
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q When you got in the taxicab?
10 A Yes, and there was the insurance money that was
11 due the Veterans' and it wasn't paid him and I was trying to
12 get that for him, and I think it will come certain.
• 12 Q All right. When you got— how did you leave
14 the Veterans' Administration? What did you do?
15 A When we left the Veterans' Administration we
I B hailed a cab. He was in the second lane and pulled to the
17 pavement right at Fayette and St. Paul Street, and we got in,
18 and that's all we were saying, talking in the cab about,
1!) about, "I hope you get your coal," and I hope, you know, I
2 0 want everything at one time, you know, and I was just talkin',
21 like that, discussing it, discussing our business about the
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22 in us, and he was sitting in the front seat and we were just
24 sitting in the back seat.
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Q Now, did you, in this conversation with Mrs.
Sheppard about coal, this was all in the taxicab?
A Yes, that's right.
Q Were you put out about this, talking about the
coal?
A I was only put out because 3he was saying, she
thought 1 was maybe, you know, asking, didn't want to get the
gentleman angry, you know, about getting this increase, you
know, how they, you know, like with people who are poor
sometimes, and I just said we should get more on the check
each month.
Q And that's all the conversation was. Were you
talking about the police in the cab?
A No, no, that was all the conversation it was.
Q Was there any conversation about the police?
A No indeed.
Q Was there any conversation about the Veney
240
brothers?
A Not a word in that cab.
Q You were talking about Roscoe?
A Yes, Roscoe, yes, what a good boy Roscoe was
because that's what we went down to see after Roscoe'8
allotment because a good boy like Roscoe is, and we don't
have to live cheap, and we wanted more money, and the expense
of living is more.
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That was our errand to go down and get an
increase in this payment, and then it didn't take on long to
get to coy house, to Druid Hill Avenue from Fayette Street.
Q Now, when you got to your house you got out?
A 1 got out, yes, and I even said to her, "Give
him a tip"because sane of these cab drivers say we don't tip,
but we do.
Q Did you pay the cab driver?
A Oh, no, because the first one I told them to
pay, and the last one paid the taxi man, and I was the first
one out.
Q What time was this when you got there?
A Well, that was about eleven-thirty, I guess.
We were, went to the bank at ten, and that gentleman was a
little late, and then we went down to the Veterans' Administrn
tion, 1 guess about a block below, about a-half-hour, and we
didn't stay too long there. You know they don't take too
much time with you.
So we was about, X guess, about eleven or a
little later when we came out and got s cab; and when I got
home it must have been near twelve o'clock.
Q What did you do after that?
A 1 went on home.
Q And after you got home, than what?
A I got home, and I had to attend to— I have an
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apartment that 1 rent, and I have a vacancy, and 1 left my
home right away to go to 1136 Druid Hill Avenue.
Q You left your home at--
A I left my home at 1930 Druid Hill Avenue to go
to 1136 Druid Hill Avenue, ray family home.
THE COURT: To go to 1136?
THE WITNESS: 1136 where I have ray family home.
THE COURT: And your home is 1930 Druid Hill
Avenue?
THE WITNESS: Yes, that’s right, and I have
an apartment house I rent, and I went down there to see about,
I had an appointment to meet a tenant to move in, and when--
you want me to tell what happened?
BY MR. NABRIT:
Q Well, now, did you later see Mrs. Sheppard
that afternoon?
A I ’m trying to lead up to it.
Q Well--
THE COURT: Let her go ahead.
BY MR. NABRIT:
Q Go ahead.
A While I was at 1136 Druid Hill Avenue I had
called Mrs. Mitchell's office to tell my husband to pick me
up at that office, which is the only reason why that I ever
found out that Mrs. Sheppard was arrested.
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The call came from Mrs. Mitchell's secretary to
1136, my tenant's first floor phone,"Miss Snowden, Miss
Snowden, your friend, Miss Sheppard's locked up."
Oh, 1 jumped up and ran out the door and got a
cab at the comer of Baltimore and Druid Hill Avenue. I
rushed up to my next door neighbors who called, in turn who
had called Miss, the next door neighbor, to call Mrs. Mitchell,
office to find out where can she find Mrs. Snowden.
Am 1 talking too fast?
Q Did you eventually get together with Mrs.
Juanita Mitchell?
A I finally got with Mrs. Mitchell, but Deforc
es Go ahead.
A But before 1 got to Mrs. Mitchell my neighbor
had the next door neighbor Mrs. Sheppard to tell me what
happened.
She come for Miss Sheppard had told her to
notify Mrs. Snowden because the Police Department wouldn't
let her call nobody.
Then— shall I go ahead?
Q Well—
THE COURT: Well, I understand a message gets
to her and she gets to Mrs. Mitchell.
THE WITNESS: That's right.
THE COURT: Let's move along. Let's move on
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from that.
THE WITNESS: That's right.
BY MR. NABRIT:
Q Is Mrs. Mitchell related to you, Mrs. Juanita
Mitchell?
A Mrs. Mitchell is toy niece.
Q And did you all go somewhere and get her?
A Mrs. Mitchell, I figure, I figured that in any
of those things I ought to have a lawyer because I don't see
as a layman I could get her out.
So I went and got Mrs. Mitchell as a lawyer to
go with me to see if I could get Mrs. Mitchell out— get Mrs.
Sheppard out.
Q Did you all go?
A So we went in the car with Mrs. Mitchell and
went to north— because we were a little bewildered because
at first they said Northeastern, but we didn't know what it
was all about, but Mrs. Snowden, Mrs. litchell found out i t
was at Northwestern, and we went to Northwestern.
Q Now, what happened when you got there?
A When we got to Northwestern, why Mrs. Mitchell
went to the desk and asked about Mrs. Sheppard, and they in
c um released Mrs. Sheppard to her, to Mrs. Mitchell.
Q Did you have any conversation with any of the
officers you saw there at that time?
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A Yes, one of the officers^in the station house
came to me in the assembly room at the station house and said
to me, "We were going to send for you."
Send for me for what?
He says, "Why you was talking in the cab about
the Veney brothers."
What Veney brothers? I said, "Why, I don't
know them." I said we were discussing in a cab, and 1 said--
q Go slower, slow down.
THE COURT: I think you had better let her tell
her own story. Mr. Owens can take it. He's taken faster
than that.
BY MR. NABRIT:
Q Tell us in your own way. Go ahead. I'm sorry
Go ahead.
A And so he said, I says, "Well, I'm going to tel]
all ay background, who I was, and how I knew Captain Poole,
how I knew Captain Horton, how I worked in the community with
the police officers—
THE COURT: No, let's not get into that.
THE WITNESS: You don't want that? Oh, I see
BY MR. NABRIT:
Q Now, what did the officers say to you about the
taxicab?
A Well, then he said, "Didn't you discuss the
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Veney brothers in the cab?"
I said, "No, I did not." All I was saying was
that Mrs. Sheppard got a wonderful boy, end that's all we
discussed in the cab.
Q Well, what did the officer say to you then?
A Then I 3a id--*
Q What did the officer say to you?
A Then he said the taxi driver man said that
"you had a conversation."
1 said, "Bring him in, bring him in here and 1
will face him," and he didn't bring him in. He was in uh.
hall but he didn't bring him in to let me face him, wouiixi't
let me face him.
Q The taxi driver was in the hall?
A Yes.
Q What did the officer say to you? Did the
officer say to you what the cab driver said?
A The officer said the cab driver said we were
discussing the Veney brothers.
Q Are you sure about that?
A Yes.
Q Withdraw the question.
Now, after you left the jail, did you go
anywhere after that?
A We went to the-- the ministers had been saying
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that—
Q No, don't discuss that. Tell us where you wen
A Oh, no complaints, so, so we went down to the
Mayor's office to let the Mayor see that there were some
complaints about the policemen coming into the home without
a warrant.
Q And what happened down there?
A And down there they sent for the State's
Attorney to come over, and Mr. Moylan came over, and 1 do
know Mr. Moylan personally, and he was very courteous to us.
Q Who is he?
A Mr. Charlie Moylan.
Q What's his job?
A His job is State's Attorney for Baltimore City.
Q Who did you make the complaint to? To him?
A We were going to make it to him and the Mayor,
and the Mayor was coming out at one time, and they sent word
that he was busy and he couldn't come out.
THE COURT: Is that all?
MR. NABRIT: Yes.
You may examine.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. MURPHY:
Q Mrs. Snowden, now in the cab all you say you
talked about was what a good boy Roscoe was?
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A That's right.
Q And that the Veney brothers were never mentions
A That's right.
Q What, if any, conversation did you have with
the cab driver?
A None whatever, never talked to the cab driver
in all my riding around.
Q Now, when you went to the Mayor's office--
A What's that?
Q When you went to the Mayor's office you say you
discussed this matter with State's Attorney Moylen?
A Judge Moylen.
Q Was that in the presence of Mrs. Sheppard?
A Mrs. Sheppard was sitting in a chair she was,
and she was sitting in a chair, and we got up to meet Mr.
Moylan when he came into the Mayor's office, and he politely
shook our hands.
Q She knows Mr. Moylan as well as you do?
A No, she doesn't.
Q She doesn't know him at all?
A Total stranger, no, this is the first time
she's ever seen him. 1 knew him in my civic work.
Q Do you know the name of the officer at North
western to whom you spoke?
LS7A Do 1 what?
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Q The name of the officer at Northwestern Police
Station to whom you spoke?
A No, 1 don't know him.
q You say that the police officer said that they
had the cab driver there?
A That's what he said, but I didn't see him, and
then when I went out in the hall the gentleman who was talkin,
I don't know whether he was a uniformed police because he had
a sweater on, a tall gentleman, and they tell me he was a
sergeant of the riot squad.
Q He told you he was a sergeant?
A I don't know. Someone said he was a sergeant.
I don't know who he was. All I know he came in there to tel
us that he had, was questioning Mrs. Sheppard, and ’"if you
all don't talk no more, we'll all go get her and bring her
out, and let you have her."
THE COURT: Say that again.
THE WITNESS: What did you say?
BY MR. MURPHY:
Q I asked you if you knew the officer, could
identify the officer to whom you spoke concerning the cab
driver?
I could not identify him no more than he was a
tall white gentleman that had a sweater on, and he was the
one that was questioning, whoever he was, the one who was
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questioning Mrs. Sheppard, was back in the cell, was question!
her when we came in.
Then he come out to find out who we were, and
we were the people who came to find out what she was doing
locked up, but we didn't know, and he was giving us the
information.
TiE COURT: Now, what did he say?
THE WITNESS: He said that what the cab driver
said, that "you all were discussing the Veney brothers in the
cab."
I 3aid, "Oh, no, we weren't. All we were
saying was what 3 fine boy he is/'
THE COURT: Well, I think she lost the track
of it, of the statement that 1 think the Reporter did not
quite get and I know I did not quite get.
BY MR. MURPHY:
Q Have you seen the police officer in the court
room today?
A I don't know. It was a tall light, a tall
white gentleman.
MR. MURPHY: Mr. Cadden, would you stand up?
THE WITNESS: No, he’s taller than that, tails
than that.
MR. MURPHY: Would you identify yourself,
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Officer?
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Squad.
A VOICE: Lieutenant James Cadden, Homicide
THE WITNESS: However, whoever saw--Mr8.
Mitchell can tell better than I can because I'm older, and I
don't know, I can't see too good.
No, he ain't the man, no. He don't look like
the man to me.
MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Lieutenant.
THE WITNESS: No, he's a tall man, more
settled man than he. He's nothing but a young man.
MR. MURPHY: Bear with us for a moment, Your
Honor.
BY MR. MURPHY:
Q Mrs. Snowden, while you were at the Mayor's
office on this day with State's Attorney Moylan was there,
was there any discussion about shooting a police officer at
all?
A No.
Q None at all?
A No.
Q Did you say or did you hear Mrs. Sheppard say
at any time that you had a boy who would not shoot a police
officer?
A Good boy, she's got a good boy, yes, a good
boy who wouldn't shoot no policeman, no.
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Q Who would not shoot a police officer?
A No, I don't remember whether I said that or not
but I was praising what a good boy he was. He was a good
boy, and never, never, we are law-abiding citizens.
Q You are referring now to Mr. Cooper?
A Mr. Roscoe Cooper, and his grandmother, Mrs.
Maggie Sheppard.
Q And you did say, did you not, if I understand
you: testimony correctly that you both denied that Mr. Cooper
would ever shoot a police officer?
A He would never shoot a police officer; he would
never shoot a police officer, no, no, a good boy, would not
shoot no police officer.
Q Did you say that to anyone in the Mayor's offici
say that?
A
Q
A
Q
No.
While Mr. Moylan was present?
No.
"That Leroy was a good boy who would not shoot
8 police officer"?
A Would never shoot a police officer.
Q Not Leroy, I'm sorry; Roscoe Cooper.
Roscoe Cooper?
A What?
THE COURT: Well, I think she has answered
191
question in a way that is not entirely unclear to me, but she
has answered it several times, and since the question was
raised, I gather that 3he did tell Mr. Moylan that the grand
son of her friend was a good boy and he wouldn't shoot a
police officer, but that that was possibly said in the
conversation with Mr. Moylan, but she has no recollection of
saying anything like that in the taxicab.
253
her testimony.
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Now, that’s the substance of it, as I understand
132
MR. MURPHY: Thank you, very much, Mrs. Snowder.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
MR. NABRIT: I have no further questions.
(Witness excused.)
MR. NABRIT: I have another witness.
THE COURT: I hope it will not be very long.
MR. NABRIT: No, sir.
THE COURT: Because I want to talk to you a
little more about the subpoenas.
MR. NABRIT: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: But how late will it be? Do you
think it will be all day Monday?
MR. NABRIT: Your Honor, as of this point, I
don’t know, but I'll try to let you knoW\
THE COURT: You want to have one more witness?
254
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MR. NABRIT: All right.
V
THE COURT: Do you have other witnesses here on
\
this question of the anonymity?
MR. NABRIT: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Well, let's see. Does the State
dispute that the phone calls in this region down at--where
was it?
MRS. MITCHELL: Huron.
THE COURT: That that was an anonymous phone
call.
MR. SAUSE: Your Honor, this is all news to us
today, and we had—
MR. HABRIT: I gave you all this.
THE COURT: Well, I just want to know whether
it's worth while.
MR. MURPHY: Well, when it's coupled with
other names it makes it quite impossible.
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THE COURT: Well, the only question is that
two people said the officer said that they were anonymous
calls.
MR. MURPHY: Yes,
THE COURT: Now, is that disputed, and if you
have the calls of these people end they said they heard them,
if you dispute that the officer said that, I'm not question
ing it.
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I think you could Just ask one
MR. MURPHY: I don't know which officer it is.
If they identify the officer by name, but it's impossible the
Vway it iby
MR. NABRIT: Your Honor, could we have one
more witness today?
THE COURT:
question about it.
xMR. NABRIT: Yes.
THE COURT: And then you put one person on for
that question and then one other witness on that question.
You can Just put it on with respect to who came
in the house and what she heard with respect to any officer
saying anything about why they were there.
Thereupon
ELIZABETH DONNELLA WALLACE
was called as a witness for and on behalf of the plaintiffs
and, having been first duly sworn, wss examined and testified
88 follows:
THE CLERK: State your full name.
THE WITNESS: Elizabeth Donnella Wallace.
THE CLERK: Is that Miss or Mrs?
THE WITNESS: Mrs.
THE CLERK: Mrs. Elizabeth Donnella Wallace.
255
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236
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NABRIT:
Q State your full name, Mrs. Wallace?
A My name is Elizabeth Donnella Wallace.
Q And your address?
A My address is 2408 Huron Street.
Q And you have been in the courtroom here today,
during the hearing today and heard your daughter Lucinda and
Henrietta testify?
A Yes, I was.
Q Now, they talked about— where were you that night
they testified about? Were you at home when the officers
arrived? Were you at home when the officers came that night
A No, I wasn't at home.
Q Where were you?
A I was in my business, a beauty shop.
Q Where is that located?
A That is located at 2356 Highland Ferry Road.
Q Where is that located?
THE COURT: That doesn't make any difference.
MR. NABRIT: All right. I'm trying to
establish this.
BY MR. NABRIT:
Q Where is that with relation to your house?
A Well, that's about, about four houses from my
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house where I live.
Q How long have you lived in Chat house?
A Twenty-one years.
Q The same house twenty-one years?
A The same house. The only thing, it has been
remodeled.
Q Now, did anything unusual happen, and if so,
describe for us what happened, as briefly as possible?
A Well, as briefly as possible—
THE COURT: Well, I don’t think you have to,
if she doesn't know anything about their coming in.
MR. NABRIT: Well, Your Honor, I have to—
THE COURT: Did she hear anything the officer
said?
BY MR. NABRIT:
Q Did you hear anything?
THE COURT: Or how the officers happened to
come to her house?
BY MR. NABRIT:
Q Answer the Judge's question?
THE COURT: Did you hear the officer say any
thing?
THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.
Judge, Your Honor, Judge, Your Honor, if I may
say, if you will give me the privilege to say.
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THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: I, I have to explain it in this
manner because I was at my place o£ business working, and I
heard the knock on my door, and 1 opened the door, and Hr.
Redmond came in, and he said Mrs. Wallace, he said, "What is
wrong at your house?" He said, "There, the whole place is
flooded with police cars and policemen and machine guns, and
they're going all through your house."
So I ran out of the business and left the door
open. I W6S working on a customer, and when I ran out I had
to pass the alley and three doors before I could get up to
my home, and I saw all these cars, and 1 saw a big, big, I
guess a patrol wagon with, you know, lights, a lot of bright
lights up there and everybody, there was so many people
standing in the street.
So I ran up to an officer and I said, "tty God,
what is happening in coy house?"
So he said, he said, "What is your name?"
I said, "Well, I live there."
He said, "Well, what is your name? Is your
name Wallace?"
I said, "Yes, my name is Elizabeth Wallace."
So he said, "Well, this is 2408 Huron Street?"
I said, "Yes." I said, "What's going on in
* 9 Gthe house?"
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So he said, "Don't go in there."
So I said, "Well, please, somebody tell me what
is going on?"
minutes."
So he said, Veil, they'll be out in a few
So I, then I got upset because I didn't know wha
was going on in the house after leaving the home respectfully
when I left home and when, well, it got me upset because I
didn't know what had happened in the house, and seeing these
policemen, seeing all these policemen, I could see all these
policemen, and I could see that my door, the door was open,
and 1 could see them coming down my stairs and coming out the
door.
So the policeman said that I was talking with,
he said, "Well, just calm yourself; they'll be out in a few
minutes."
1 said, "Please, somebody tell me what is going
on in the house?" I said, "If you will only just tell me
what is going on in the house?"
out."
"Well," he said, "We're waiting until they get
So at that time there was some coming out on
the porch and I started knocking on the door. So he said,
"Well,"we had gotten, after we got near the porch, and I was
upset, and the children ran out and grabbed me, and we all wan
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So the policeman said, "Well, we got an anon
ymous phone call."
So I said, "What kind of phone call?" Well, at
the first time he didn't say what kind of phone call it was
until I was there, so he said, "Sit down," and I sat down on
the sofa, and they said, "Well, we had a phone call that the
Veney brothers was hiding out here."
I said, "Well, I don't know anything about them,
and I guess I still was upset, and the children they all
started to crying, at least Sharon and Henrietta started to
crying, and some of them asked something about ammonia or
something, and I just felt limp, and I just sat there until
the policemen all said, "Well, Mrs. Wallace, there is nothing
to be excited about now." They say, "We just got this phone
call that the Veney brothers were in your house," and
naturally ray legs were shaking and my teeth were chattering,
and I just couldn't talk.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: They stayed around there and
someone gave me some spirits of ammonia. Something 1 did
hear one officer say, "Well, Sharon, do you have some spirits
of ammonia?" So Sharon, one of the girls said, "Well, I
have some here," and they said it wasn’t strong, and he said
something about--
i 98
upset.
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MR. NABRIT: No.
THE COURT: Of course, she was very much upset.
There is no question about that. I'm sure it must have been
a distressing and terrifying experience.
MR. NABRIT: All right, sir.
BY MR. NABRIT:
Q Now, Mrs. Wallace, did you hear any other
officers coament about why they were there or was that all?
A That is the only thing I heard them say that the
had, that they had the anonymous phone call, they had the
fellow out there, but they didn't show me any identification
or anything that they had.
Q Did you see any warrants?
A 1 didn't see any warrants because 1 asked them,
I asked him, well, who let them in and there was no one said
anything about they had a warrant or anything.
Q Now, did you make any complaints about this?
A Well, I had to get myself together and had to
go back and shut the place up, and I told the officers—
Q Later on I mean?
A I didn't make any complaints right at that time.
Q Well, that*8 all right. Now, did you try to
get in touch with the Mayor or Governor about that?
A Well, I say not at that instant.
THE COURT: Well, did you try to get in touch
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262
with the Mayor?
THE WITNESS: I did, yes, I did.
THE COURT: And attempt to see a lawyer? Did
you see a lawyer first?
THE WITNESS: I tried to get in touch with the
Mayor first, and I'm sorry, and the Mayor, I didn't call him <
that time, no, sir; but I called the Police Headquarters and
I complained to them about it.
When I called they said to me, "Well, did they
come in your house?"
I said, ’Yes." So I said— "Well," they said,
"What do you want us to do about it?"
"Well," I said, "Well," I said, "The damage has
been done." And, I say, "It's just that now we are all
upset," and I said, "We are just as much with the law for
apprehending the Veney brothers as anyone else," I said, ''But
we would like respect when they come in our home, ' I said,
"Because we don't know what you're coming in for xml ess you
show us a warrant."
BY MR. NABRIT:
Q Did you get in touch with anybody else?
A The next morning, yes. I called Governor
McKeldin's office. I was told-- tin;
Q Mayor McKeldin.
A --that I couldn't talk to Mayor McKeldin. The;
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asked me what did I want to talk with him about. I said, "Wd
that I wanted to make a complaint."
They said, "Well, what kind of complaint?"
I said, "Well, about the Police Department."
They said, '*Well, I'm sorry that he does not hav
anything to do with that part of it. You have to contact thi
State."
Q And then?
A Then at that time before I moved from the phone
that morning, I then called the office in Baltimore and
Annapolis and asked to speak to Governor Tawes.
THE COURT: Well, I don't see that there is
any use in going into all of this. She did complain. That'
the effort she made with respect to complaining.
BY HR. NABRIT:
Q You did complain to Governor Tawes?
A I tried to, to get to Governor Tawes.
THE COURT: It doesn't make any difference.
That's the only thing that would have any bearing on it.
MR. NABRIT: No further questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. MURPHY: ' ̂
Q Mrs. Wallace, just one or two questions. When
the officer told you that they had received anonymous
telephone calls, what did that mean to you?
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A I asked what kind o£ anonymous telephone calls.
Q And what did they say?
A They didn't say anything. They didn't say tha
they were looking for the Veney brothers at all at that time.
Q What does the word "anonymous telephone call"
mean to you?
A Anonymous means someone that calls and they
didn't give their name or something. Some, someone called
around; I don't know.
Q You say maybe they didn't give their name?
A I don't know. I'm sorry, Your Honor.
MR. NABRXT: Your Honor, this is irrelevant
264
and immaterial.
THE COURT:
definition she gave us?
MR. NABRIT:
as far as I can see.
THE COURT:
definition she gave?
MR. MURPHY:
Well, what's the matter with the
1 think she gave it pretty good
What's the matter with the
I think she gave it pretty
accurate except for something else. 1 don't think it's a
question of something else.
BY MR. MURPHY:
Q Mrs. Wallace, did I understand you to say that
the police officers were rude to you?
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A I didn't say that they were rude to me; I said
that they didn't tell me what they were doing in the house
until it was all over, and I, I call that not giving a law-
abiding citizen good citizenship.
Q Didn't they treat you as a law-abiding citizen?
A No, because 1 didn't know what was going on in
my home at the time when I arrived at home and 1 couldn't go
in, and 1 had, X had girls in there and I didn't know what was
happening in my house; and if X had known what they were in
there for 1 would not have been upset as much as 1 was.
Q Well, they eventually told you that they were
looking for the Veney brothers?
A After X got in the house and set down.
Q In other words, once you were in the house they
told you why they were in the house?
A No, I went in the house because 1 came from up
the street and stood out with no coat on, and they wouldn't
let me go in the house.
MR.. MURPHY: No further questions. Thank you.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NABRIT:
Q Did you get sick after this episode?
A Yes, I did.
Q What was that?
No, no, there's no need of that.
265
<>03
THE COURT;
We're not trying to prove damages.
MR. NABRIT: Withdrawn.
THE COURT: We're not proving dai.mges here, anc
the fact that 1 have not let you testify to this will not be
used against you in a damage suit that you may file, the fact
that I have cut you off.
MR. NABRIT: Again I represent to the Court as
a member of the Bar that 1 have not been retained in any
damage suit at ell.
THE COURT: I understand that, and I'm cutting
people off, and it might well be a defense in some of these
cases, why didn't you say that to Judge Thomsen, and if there
are damage suits filed and I cut people off, 1 want it clearly
understood that that can be brought out if any such points
are used on cross-examination.
V. THE CLERK: Step down.
(Witness excused.)
THE COURT:
or a long witness?
MR. NABRIT:
same subject, Your Honor,
THE COURT:
Now, do you have a short witness
I have another witness on the
but I'll try to keep it short.
All right.
MR. NABRIT: Miss Barrick.
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267
DOROTHY J. BARRICK
was called as a witness for and on behalf of the plaintiffs
and, haviYig been first duly sworn, was examined and testified
as follows:
THE CLERK: State your full name for the recor<
THE WITNESS: Dorothy J. Barrick.
THE COURT: 11118 is the guidance counselor?
THE WITNESS: That's right.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. NABRIT:
Q And your residence?
A 3321 Owynn Falls Parkway.
Q And youwere at the Wallace home on Huron Street
on December 30th?
A That's right.
Q Describe to us--did you observe any police
officers or officer come into the house?
A 1 heard of them.
Q Explain to us briefly what happened when they
came there?
A We were looking at slides from a trip to
Hawaii that Miss Lucinda Wallace had made, and the police,
the lights flashes in the window because the lights were out,
and this light flashing through the window made everyone jump
Thereupon
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268
up to see what was going on, and we said, "What is that?"
And of course with the sudden lights flashing
it frightened everyone, and by the time we reached from the
dining room into the other section of the home the place was
crowded.
Q Did you say anything to the police officers
about why they were there, what they were doing, you
personally?
A Yes.
Q What did you say to them?
A When 1 walked from the living room to the
dining room I said, "Well, wait a minute, why are you in this
lady's home?"
And nobody answered me. They went through and
passed up, and 1 said, "You have no right to be in here like
this because there's nothing going on in here." And I said,
"The least you could do would be polite; you're rude and
you're crude, and you could be polite about the matter."
And one officer said, "Well, that is why he was
killed because he was polite."
And I said, "Well, that doesn't speak very well
of you," and 1 think I said something to him about--
Q Did you ask him the reason they were there?
A Yes, I said, "Do you know why you're being in
this lady's home?" And nobody answered that.
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Finally one officer went to the cellar door to
go down to the cellar, and I said, "Why are you running
around in the home like this?"
And he said, "I'm going to search the cellar."
And I said, "There's a dog down there and don't
you kill it."
And he said, Veil, he'd better not bite me."
And I said, 'Veil, he could bite you. He beloi
to this home."
And he said, ’Veil, do you belong in the home?"
And I said, ’Veil, that is too bad," and I said
"Don't you kill these peoples' dog," and then one of the
officers said, "I have to search the home."
And I said, "For what reason?" And I never
heard an answer to that yet until we went in the home, into
the living room where Mrs. Wallace was crying in the home,
and that's when one officer was telling her that he received
this anonymous phone call, and he said to her, Ve have
anonymous phone calls that the Veney brothers are hiding out
in here."
And I said, "In a home like this?"
And he said, ’Veil"— I said, ’Veil, who called
you?"
He said, "I can't reveal that," and I thought
that's a strange sense of the word. "Anonymous" to me means
269
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with no name.
270
And he said, "Well, who— ," why can't you reveal
a name? And he wanted to know who was choosing this word,
and I said, "Don't choose ray word. You choose one of your
own."
Q Who were the officers?
A I have no idea who they were.
Q Can you describe the officers?
A No, there was a herd of them. At that moment
I could not recognize them, the ones in uniform, perhaps, but
not the others.
Q How many officers were there in the house?
A I did not bother to count them, officers; there
were too many.
THE COURT: Well, were there two or three?
THE WITNESS: Many.
THE COURT: Were there ten or twelve or more?
THE WITNESS: They were constantly coming and
going and they were in there— there were two doors, one coming
this way and one from this way and they were coming both
ways, and they were up the steps and down the steps and
standing around, and they were behind each other.
And there was no counting for me. I never
bothered to look at them. I saw faces and uniforms and
machine guns, and I was upset. I was perturbed because this
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was a new experience £or us.
1 didn't count them. 1 wouldn't pin myself to
a number because there was too many of them.
MR, NAURU: No further questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. SAUSE:
Q I didn't understand the word that you used.
Was the word "crude”? C-r-u-d-e, crude?
A Crude, c-r-u-d-e, yes.
Q Now, when you said that the officers were being
crude, what did you have reference to?
A I had reference to their sudden entry, their no
announcement, their up and down in a home that, that nobody
knew why they were there, no reason given for the entry.
That is crudeness.
THE COURT: How do you know that they came in
without any announcement for the entry?
THE WITNESS: Because no word, nobody said
anything, there was no word about it.
THE COURT: You weren't there when they came
in, were you?
THE WITNESS: I was right in the dining room
when they entered and nobody said a word because we, I heard,
the door is here, and it's Just a little curve here, and you
can hear, and the child answered the door and didn't have a
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chance to ask who was It; so there was not a word mentioned,
and we heard the bump, bump, bump of many feet.
BY MR. SAUSE:
272
Q Who was the child who answered the door?
A Either Henrietta or Sharon because I did not
see. I was looking at the slides this way, and one of the
children behind me, everybody was lined up.
Q Was this the side door?
A I don't know which. They probably came in botl
doors because there are two door3, and by the time, and by
time we come from this direction to this direction somebody
in.
Q I'll ask you again was this the side door or
what?
A Probably both. They came in both doors, the
side and front.
Q Well, how did they get in the side door? Who
let them in?
A The side door was not locked, I don't think.
I don't know how they got in. Someone must have let them in
or they came in themselves.
Q How did they get in the front door?
A One of the— I don't know. I didn't see them
come in the door at all because I was turned in this direct!
turned around, and the children said one of them let theme el'
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Q Well, you don't know whether anybody admitted
them to this house or not, do you?
THE COURT: Well, she doesn't know who opened
the side door. She thinks it was one of the girls. What
she said she didn't hear them say anything as to why they
wanted to cone in, and she was in the dining room somewhere
around the comer, and I think that's all it amounts to on
the entry, and she may or may not have been in a position to
hear.
MR. NABRIT: Yes.
BY MR. SAUSE:
Q Now, your characterization of "crude" has no
reference to any mistreatment by the police officers, does it
of you personally?
A Well, no, not personally, but I'm well-read.
Q You're well what?
A Well-read.
Q What do you mean by that?
A I have read too, to us, to us a police officer
means different things than it does to you perhaps.
Q Well, I don't know about that. I don't under
stand. I still don't understand what you mean.
A May I explain it to you?
Q Yes.
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THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. SAUSE:
Q I wish you would.
A Well, from Mississippi to Maryland, the sytrib—
a police officer to a Negro is a symbol of snarling dogs and
firehoses and machine guns, and 1, when I see a police
officer as a Negro,even though I may be non-violent, I have
feelings. I may not be out, acting them out, but inwardly
1 have a personal feeling whether 1 say it or not, I was
angry enough at that moment to say the word ’’crude'1 and
"rude”.
q You don’t like police officers; is that what
you say?
A No, I probably may not like them inwardly and I
don’t know whether I have analyzed them or not.
THE COURT: Do you feel— let me ask you this
question— that the attitude that you have just expressed is
that the attitude of the Negro community?
THE WITNESS: No, I may not feel that. I
don’t think we, you know, it’s not, it’s a personal feeling
perhaps, but I don’t say that is, it isn’t something you can
say that a person should be, you know, you don’t come by it
lightly that a person has to feel that he is all of a sudden
have a wrong thought about a police officer perhaps. I
don’t iiave any personal dealings with them, but I thought
the way they came in made me aztgry about it.
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And so 1 thought this sudden desire to express,
\
expressed my feelings. < ''
MR. SAU5E: I have nothing further.
MR. NABRIT: Step down.
THE COURT:^ Let me speak to counsel.
(Thereupon, there was a conference at the bench,
after which the Court adjourned to Monday, January 18, 1965
at tan o'clock a.in.)