Morris v. Williams Record Vol. I

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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Morris v. Williams Record Vol. I, 1944. d69e116c-ca9a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/4acc5d79-7e24-4b1f-b480-019e23082884/morris-v-williams-record-vol-i. Accessed November 01, 2025.

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VOL. I.
A b s t r a c t o f R e c o r d .

United States Circuit Court of Appeals
EIGHTH CIRCUIT.

No. 12,887
CIVIL.

_ /
SUSIE MORRIS, FOR HERSELF AND FOR OTHERS

SIMILARLY SITUATED, FRANCES B. HIB-
BLER, INTERVENER, APPELLANTS,

vs.
ROBERT M. WILLIAMS, CHAIRMAN; MURRAY O.

REED, SECRETARY; MRS. AY. P. McDERMOTT;
MRS. AY. F. RAAVLINGS; DR. R. M. BLAKELY
AND E. F. JENNINGS, CONSTITUTING THE
BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF THE LITTLE
ROCK SPECIAL SCHOOL DISTRICT AND
RUSSELL T. SCOBEE, SUPERINTENDENT
OF SCHOOLS, APPELLEES.

APPEAL FROM THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS.

FILED JUNE 6, 1944.

United States Circuit Court of Appeals
EIGHTH CIRCUIT.

No. 12,887
CIVIL.

SUSIE MORRIS, FOR HERSELF AND FOR OTHERS
SIMILARLY SITUATED, FRANCES B. HIB-
BLER, INTERVENER, APPELLANTS,

vs.
ROBERT M. WILLIAMS, CHAIRMAN; MURRAY 0.

REED, SECRETARY; MRS. W. P. McDERMOTT;
MRS. W. F. RAWLINGS; DR. R. M. BLAKELY
AND E. F. JENNINGS, CONSTITUTING THE
BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF THE LITTLE
ROCK SPECIAL SCHOOL DISTRICT AND
RUSSELL T. SCOBEE, SUPERINTENDENT
OF SCHOOLS, APPELLEES.

APPEAL FROM THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS.

FILED JUNE 6, 1944.

INDEX.
Original Print

Complaint................................................................................................ 1 1
Answer..................................................................................................... 11 9
Order of District Court dismissing cause as to Plaintiff, City

Teachers’ Association of Little Rock, May 20, 1942............... 16 13
Transcript of Testimony....................................................................... 23 13

Original Print
Caption................................................................................................... 23 13
Appearances of Counsel....................................................................... 23 14
Testimony for Plaintiff........................................................................ 24 14

Crawford Green................................................................................. 24 14
Plaintiff’s Exhibits 1-A to 1-G admitted in evidence......... 27 16

E. F. Jennings.................................................................................... 34 20
Mrs. W. P. McDermott................................................................... 55 31

Plaintiff’s Exhibits 2-A and 2-B, marked for identification,
Memorandum as to ................................................................... 121 70

Dr. R. M. Blakely........................................................................... 129 74
Mrs. W. S. Rawlings........................................................................ 144 83

Plaintiff’s Exhibits 3-A and 3-B, marked for identification 158 91
Murray O. Reed............................................................................... 171 99
Susie C. Morris................................................................................. 218 126

Plaintiff’s Exhibit 4, admitted in evidence.............................. 277 159
John H. Lewis................................................................................... 281 161
R. T. Scobee..................................................................................... 314 180

Plaintiff’s Exhibit 5, introduced in evidence........................... 336 193
Defendants’ Exhibit 1, admitted in evidence.......................... 369 213
Defendants’ Exhibit 2, admitted in evidence.......................... 378 217
Defendants’ Exhibit 3, admitted in evidence.......................... 395 227
Defendants’ Exhibit 5, admitted in evidence.......................... 472 271
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 6, introduced in evidence........................... 557 319
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 7, introduced in evidence........................... 558 320
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 8, admitted in evidence.............................. 583 334
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 9, admitted in evidence.............................. 585 334
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 10, admitted in evidence............................ 599 342
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 11, admitted in evidence............................ 603 344
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 12, admitted in evidence............................ 605 345

Susie Morris, recalled...................................................................... 618 352
Testimony for Defendants.................................................................. 621 354

Robert M. Williams......................................................................... 621 354
Charles R. Hamilton........................................................................ 632 360

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 13, admitted in evidence............................ 722 411
Defendants’ Exhibit 8, marked for identification................... 742 420

Miss Annie Griffey................................................. 744 421
Mrs. L. J. Allison............................................................................. 764 432
Miss Maude Hayes........................................................................... 781 442
V. L. Webb...................................................................................... 798 451
II. W. Means................................................................................... 820 463

Index, Volume II.
R. T. Scobee...................................................................................... 832 470

Testimony for Plaintiff in Rebuttal............................................... 895 504
J. H. Lewis........................................................................................ 895 504
Susie Morris.................................................................................... 897 505
James D. Scott................................................................................ 899 507
John H. Gipson............................................................................... 902 508

Certificate of Court Reporter to Testimony................................... 907 511
Excerpts from Minutes of Special School District of Little Rock,

Arkansas............................................................................................. 908 511
Minutes of January 30, 1926............................................................ 908 511

Minutes of February 27, 1926....
Minutes of June 7, 1926...............
Minutes of August 2, 1926...........
Minutes of August 31, 1926.........
Minutes of September 26, 1926. .
Minutes of February 26, 1927.
Minutes of June 27, 1927............
Minutes of September 24, 1927. .
Minutes of May 14, 1928...........
Minutes of May 26, 1928...........
Minutes of June 30, 1928...........
Minutes of July 25, 1928............
Minutes of August 28, 1928.......
Minutes of November 24, 1928.
Minutes of January 26, 1929 —
Minutes of May 21, 1929...........
Minutes of July 29, 1929............
Minutes of September 28, 1929.
Minutes of October 26, 1929... .
Minutes of January 25, 1929.. ..
Minutes of February 22, 1930. .
Minutes of May 26, 1930...........
Minutes of May 31, 1930...........
Minutes of July 1, 1930..............
Minutes of July 26, 1930............
Minutes of September 27, 1930.
Minutes of June 27, 1931............
Minutes of September 1, 1931. .
Minutes of April 30, 1932..........
Minutes of May 28, 1932...........
Minutes of June 24, 1932...........
Minutes of July 27, 1932............
Minutes of August 29, 1932.......
Minutes of September 24, 1932.
Minutes of October 29, 1932... .
Minutes of May 27, 1933...........
Minutes of July 29, 1933............
Minutes of March 31, 1934........
Minutes of June 19, 1934...........
Minutes of May 25, 1934...........
Minutes of August 25, 1934.......
Minutes of October 1, 1934....
Minutes of February 26, 1935. .
Minutes of May 6, 1935...........
Minutes of June 28, 1935..........
Minutes of July 27, 1935..........
Minutes of August 31, 1935....
Minutes of January 28, 1936...
Minutes of March 30, 1936....
Minutes of April 25, 1936.......
Minutes of June 29, 1936..........
Minutes of August 29, 1936...
Minutes of September 26, 1936

Original Print
909 512
910 512
912 514
913 515
914 516
915 516
917 518
918 518
919 519
919 520
921 521
924 523
924 523
926 524
927 525
927 525
928 525
928 526
929 526
930 527
931 528

. 932 528

. 952 539

. 953 540

. 954 541

. 955 541

. 956 542

. 957 542

. 957 543
. 958 543
. 961 546
. 962 546
. 964 548
. 964 548
. 965 549
. 965 549
. 985 559
. 986 559
. 987 560
. 989 561
. 990 562
. 991 562
. 991 563
. 992 563

.. 993 564

. . 994 565

. . 995 565

. . 997 567
. . 998 567
. . 999 568
. . 1000 569
. . 1002 570
. . 1003 571

Minutes of November 2, 1936........................................................ 1004 571
Minutes of December 28, 1936....................................................... 1004 572
Minutes of January 30, 1937.......................................................... 1005 572
Minutes of February 27, 1937........................................................ 1005 573
Minutes of June 26, 1937................................................................. 1006 573
Minutes of July 27, 1937................................................................. 4008 574
Minutes of August 28, 1937............................................................ 1008 575
Minutes of October 30, 1937........................................................... 1009 575
Minutes of November 29, 1937...................................................... 1009 576
Minutes of January 31, 1938........................................................... 1010 576
Minutes of March 26, 1938............................................................. 1015 579
Minutes of May 11, 1938................................................................. 1015 579
Minutes of June 24, 1938................................................................. 1018 581
Minutes of July 30, 1938................................................................. 1020 582
Minutes of August 27, 1938............................................................ 1021 583
Minutes of October 29, 1938........................................................... 1022 584
Minutes of December 30, 1938...................................................... 1023 584
Minutes of May 27, 1939................................................................ 1023 585
Minutes of September 27, 1939..................................................... 1024 585
Minutes of October 25, 1939.......................................................... 1025 586
Minutes of January 31, 1940.......................................................... 1026 586
Minutes of April 30, 1940 ............................................................. 1027 588
Minutes of April 26, 1940............................................................... 1028 588
Minutes of April 29, 1940............................................................... 1031 590
Minutes of June 26, 1940................................................................ 1037 594
Minutes of July 31, 1940................................................................ 1039 595
Minutes of August 28, 1940........................................................... 1039 596
Minutes of January 29, 1941.......................................................... 1040 597
Minutes of March 31, 1941............................................................ 1042 597
Minutes of April 30, 1941.............................................................. 1043 599
Minutes of July 30, 1941................................................................ 1065 612
Minutes of August 21, 1941............................................................ 1066 613
Minutes of October 29, 1941.......................................................... 1066 613
Minutes of January 29, 1942.......................................................... 1068 614
Minutes of February 26, 1942....................................................... 1069 615
Minutes of May 27, 1942................................................................ 1069 615
Minutes of June 24, 1942................................................................ 1092 629
Minutes of August 26, 1942........................................................... 1113 641
Teachers employed prior to School Year 1941-42.................... 1115 642
Extra Curricular and Administrative Duty Assignment......... 1130 656

Plaintiff’s Exhibits............................................................................ 1136 665
2-A, Application of Mrs. Lillian Lane for position as teacher

of English in East Side Junior High....................................... 1525 665
2-B, Application of Miss Susue E. Cowan Morris for position

as teacher of Junior High School English, Senior High
School English, Grammar Grade Subjects............................ 1526 671

2- C, Application of Rhoda E. Wharry for position as teacher in
Junior High, English or Social Studies in High School; or
Grade teacher............................................................................. 1527 701

3- A, Notice from R. T. Scobee to Employees of the Little Rock
Special School District, October 30, 1941.............................. 1528 713

3-B, Notice from R. T. Scobee to Employees of the Little
Rock Special School District, October 30, 1941................... 1529 714

Original Print

4, Special Adjustment Plan relating to Negro Teachers......... 1532 716
5, Letter, Little Rock School Board to John L. Wilson, et al.,

May 19, 1941................................................................................ 1534 717
6, Application of Miss Nancy Jane Isgrig for position as teacher

of Grammar Grades, Junior High, High School................. 1535 719
7, Application of Mrs. Eunice Harwell Brumfield for position

as teacher of Mathematics, Physics, Biology, English.. . . 1536 725
8, Application of Miss Wanda Dale Leatherman for position

as teacher of Kindergarten—Primary................................. 1537 735
9, Application of Miss Nancy Dowell for position as teacher

of Third Grade, Fourth Grade, Second Grade.................... 1538 741
10, Application of Mrs. William B. Douglas (Helen E. Wills)

for position as teacher of Home Economics in Little Rock
public Schools............................................................................. 1539 747

11, Application of Mrs. Alfie Price Peacock for position as
teacher of Sixth Grade............................................................. 1540 753

12, Application of Miss Lena Mae Crain for position as teacher
of Elementary grades, fourth, fifth or sixth........................... 1541 759

13, Letter, J. H. Lewis, Principal, Dunbar High School, to
C. R. Hamilton, Supervisor, Colored Schools, May 14,1942 1542 765

Defendants’ Exhibits......................................................................... 1543 766
1, Form used in rating teachers of Little Rock Public Schools,. 1543 766
2, Rating sheet relating to Mrs. Susie Morris.......................... 1544 767
3, Report on Personnel of Principals and Teachers at various

schools for the season 1941-42.................................................. 1545 768
5, Rating sheets relating to various teachers............................. 1566 779

Lester Bowie................................................................................ 1566 779
Mrs. E. M. Brumfield................................................................. 1567 779
Mrs. Bush..................................................................................... 1568 780
Mrs. Edna Douglas..................................................................... 1569 780
D. Elston..................................................................................... 1570 781
Gwendolyn Floyd....................................................................... 1571 781
Mrs. Treopia Gavelly................................................................. 1572 782
Mrs. Annie Gill am..................................................................... 1573 782
John Gipson................................................................................. 1574 783
Thelma Gipson............................................................................ 1575 783
O. N. Green................................................................................. 1576 784
Andrew Hunter............................................................................ 1577 784
Owen Jackson.............................................................................. 1578 785
Miss Olga Jordan........................................................................ 1579 785
Tessie Lewis................................................................................. 1580 786
Mrs. Clarice Little..................................................................... 1581 786
Mrs. Susie Morris....................................................................... 1582 787
Mrs. Dorothy M oore.................................................................. 1583 787
Bruce Moore................................................................................ 1584 788
Mrs. N. S. Parr........................................................................... 1585 788
Mrs. Alice Perry......................................................................... 1586 789
J. D. Russell................................................................................ 1587 789
Grendetta Scott.......................................................................... 1588 790
B. T. Shelton............................................................................... 1589 790
D. P. Tyler.................................................................................. 1590 791
Mildred Works............................................................................. 1591 791
Rosemary Walker................................................................... 1592 792

Original Print

Utilities Report for month ending April 30, 1942.................
6, Report relating to salary of Susie E. (Cowan) Morris.......
8, Form of Teacher’s Self-Improvement and Self-Rating Card

of Little Rock Public Schools..................................................
9, Form of Self Improvement Sheet...........................................

Certificate of Court Reporter to Testimony and Exhibits.......
Opinion of District Court....................................................................
Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law of District Court..........
Judgment, March 10, 1944...................................................................
Notice of Appeal....................................................................................
Cost Bond on Appeal............................................................................
Order of District Court as to time for filing Designation of Record

and for filing of transcript on appeal.............................................
Suggested Changes in'Findings of Fact requested by Plaintiffs. ..
Motion of Frances P. Hibbler for leave to Intervene, etc..............

Affidavit of Frances P. Hibbler......................................................
Order of District Court granting leave to Frances P. Hibbler to

Intervene and to prosecute appeal in the same manner and with
like effect as if named an original party to cause........................

Designation of Plaintiffs of matters to be contained in transcript
on appeal.............................................................................................

Clerk’s Certificate to Transcript........................................................
Designation of Appellants to omit certain Exhibits in printing

Record..................................................................................................

Original1 Print
1593 792
1595 793

1596 795
1597 799
1598 799
1599 800
1622 817
1629 823
1630 823
1631 824

1632 824
1633 824
1635 826
1637 827

1639 828

1640 829
1642 830

1643 831

[fol. 1] Complaint.
In The District Court Of The United States, The Western

Division Of The Eastern District Of Arkansas.
Susie Morris, and the City Teachers’ Association, of Little

Rock, an unincorporated Association, Plaintiffs,
No. 555 vs. Civil Docket

Robert M. Williams, Chairman; Murray 0. Reed, Secre
tary ; Mrs. W. P. McDermott; Mrs. W. F. Rawlings;
Dr. R. M. Blakely, and E. F. Jennings, constituting
the Board of Directors of the Little Rock Special
School District, and Russell T. Scobee, Superintend
ent of Schools, Defendants.

1. The jurisdiction of this Court is invoked under
Judicial Code, Section 24 (1) (28 U. S. C., Section 41 (1),
this being a suit in equity which arises under the Consti
tution and/or laws of the United States, viz., the Fourteenth
Amendment of said Constitution and/or Sections 41 and
43 of Title 8 of the United States Code, wherein the matter
in controversy exceeds, exclusive of interest and costs, the
sum of $3000. The jurisdiction of this Court is also in
voked under Judicial Code, Section 24 (14) (24 U. S. C.,
Section 41 (14), this being a suit in equity authorized by
law to be brought to redress the deprivation under color
of law, statute, regulation, custom and usage of a State of
rights, privileges and immunities secured by the Constitu
tion of the United States, viz., the Fourteenth Amendment
to said Constitution, and of rights secured by laws of the
United States providing for equal rights of citizens of the
United States and of all persons within the jurisdiction
of the United States, viz., Sections 41 and 43 of Title 8 of
the United States Code.
[fol. 2] 2. Plaintiffs show further that this is a proceed
ing for a declaratory judgment and an injunction under

1—12,887

Section 274D of the Judicial Code for the purpose of
determining a question in actual controversy between the
parties, to-wit, the question of whether the practice of the
Defendants, in adopting, enforcing and maintaining the
policy, custom and usage by which Plaintiffs and other
Negro teachers and principals in the public schools of the
City of Little Rock are uniformly paid lower salaries than
white teachers and principals in the City of Little Rock
possessing the same professional qualifications and certifi
cates, exercising the same duties and performing the
same services, solely on account of their Race and color is
unconstitutional and void, being a violation of the Four
teenth Amendment to the United States Constitution and
the laws of the United States, all of which will appear more
fully hereafter.

3. All parties to this action, both Plaintiffs and De
fendants, are citizens of the United States and of the
State of Arkansas, and are resident and domiciled in said
State.

4. Plaintiff, Susie Morris, is colored, a person of
African descent and of Negro blood. She is a tax-payer of
the City of Little Rock and the State of Arkansas. She
is a regular teacher in the Dunbar High School, a public
high school located in Little Rock, maintained and oper
ated by the Defendants. This suit is brought on her own
behalf and also on behalf of other persons, citizens and resi
dents of the State of Arkansas, namely, teachers and
principals in the colored schools of Little Rock, Arkansas,
similarly situated and affected, as will hereinafter more
fully appear.

5. Plaintiff, City Teachers’ Association of Little Rock,
a voluntary unincorporated association, is composed of
Negro teachers and principals in the public colored schools
of Little Rock, Arkansas organized for the mutual im
provement and protection of its members in their pro
fession as teachers and principals in the public schools of
[fol. 3] Little Rock.

6. The Little Rock Special School District exists
pursuant to the laws of Arkansas as an administrative de
partment of the State of Arkansas, discharging essential

governmental functions (Section 11490 of Pope’s Digest
of Statutes of Arkansas). Defendants, Robert M. Wil
liams, Chairman; Murray 0. Reed, Secretary; Mrs. W. P.
McDermott; Mrs. W. E. Rawlings; Dr. R. M. Blakely, and
E. F. Jennings constitute the Board of Directors of the
Little Rock Special School District pursuant to Sections
11533-11535 of Pope’s Digest of Statutes of Arkansas.
Defendant, R. T. Scobee, is Superintendent of Schools of
Little Rock. All of the Defendants herein are sued in their
official capacities.

7. The State of Arkansas has declared public education
a State function. The Constitution of Arkansas of 1874,
Article XIV, provides:

Article XIV
Section 1. “ Intelligence and virtue being the safeguards

of liberty and the [bulward] of a free and good govern
ment, the State shall ever maintain a general, suitable and
efficient system of free schools whereby all persons in the
State between the ages of six and twenty-one years may
receive gratuitous instruction.”

Section 4. “ The supervision of public schools and the
execution of the laws regulating the same shall be vested
in and confided to such officers as may be provided for by
the general assembly.”

Pursuant to this mandate the general assembly of
Arkansas has established a system of free public schools
in the State of Arkansas according to a plan set out in
Chapter 147 of Pope’s Digest of Statutes of Arkansas.
The establishment, maintenance and administration of the
public school system of Arkansas is vested in a State Board
of Education, a Commissioner of Education, School Dis
tricts and local superintendents of schools. (Act 127 of
Acts of 1941 of General Assembly of Arkansas).
[fob 4] 8. All teachers in Arkansas, including Plaintiffs
and other teachers in Little Rock, are required to hold
teaching licenses in full force in accordance with the rules
of certification laid down by the State Board of Education
(Act 127 of Acts of 1941 of General Assembly of Arkan
sas). The duty of enforcing this system is imposed

upon the several Boards of Directors of the School Dis
tricts including the Defendants. Negro and white teachers
and principals alike must meet the same requirements to
receive teachers’ licenses from the State Board of Educa
tion, and upon qualifying are issued identical certificates.

9. The public schools of the City of Little Rock, Ar
kansas, are under the direct control and supervision of
the Defendants, acting as an administrative department
or division of the State of Arkansas. Defendants are under
a duty to employ teachers, to fix salaries and to issue
warrants for the payment of teachers’ salaries, including
the salaries of the Plaintiffs herein and all other teachers
and principals employed by the Defendants. (Section
11535 of Pope’s Digest of Statutes of Arkansas).

10. Defendants over a long period of years have con
sistently pursued and maintained and are now pursuing
and maintaining the policy, custom and usage of paying
Negro teachers and principals in the public schools of
Little Rock less salary than white teachers and principals
in said public school system possessing the same profes
sional qualifications, licenses and experience, exercising the
same duties and performing the same services as Negro
teachers and principals. Such discrimination is being
practiced against the Plaintiffs and all other Negro
teachers and principals in Little Rock, and is based solely
upon their Race or color.

11. The Plaintiff, Susie Morris, and all of the members
[fol. 5] of the Plaintiff Association, and all other Negro
teachers and principals in public schools in the City of
Little Rock, are teachers by profession and are specially
trained for their calling. By rules, regulations, practice,
usage and custom of the State acting by and through the
Defendants as its agents and agencies, the Plaintiff, Susie
Morris and all of the members of the Plaintiff Association
and all other Negro teachers and principals in the City of
Little Rock, are being denied the equal protection of the
laws, in that solely by reason of their Race and color they
are being denied compensation from public funds for their
services as teachers equal to the compensation provided
from public funds for and being paid to white teachers with
equal qualifications and experience for equivalent services

pursuant to rules, regulations, custom and practice of the
State acting by and through its agents and agencies.

12. Plaintiff, Susie Morris, has been employed as a
regular teacher by the Defendants since 1935 and is in her
seventh year of experience as a regular teacher in the
Dunbar High School, a public high school maintained and
operated under the direct control, supervision, rules and
regulations of the Defendants. She successfully completed
the course of instruction provided at Talledega College,
Talledega, Alabama and was graduated with a Degree of
Bachelor [or] Arts. She holds a high school teacher’s
License issued by the Arkansas State Board of Education.
In order to qualify for this license Plaintiff has satisfied
the same requirements as those exacted of all other
teachers, white as well as Negro, qualifying therefor, and
she exercises the same duties and performs services sub
stantially equivalent to those performed by other holders
of the said license, white as well as Negro, yet all white
teachers in Little Rock who hold the said license with
equal and less experience receive salaries much larger
than the salary paid the Plaintiff.
[fol. 6] 13. Pursuant to the policy, Custom and usage set
out above the Defendants acting as agents and agencies
of the State of Arkansas, have established and maintained
a salary schedule used by them to fix the amount of com
pensation for teachers and principals in the public schools
of Little Rock, which provides a lower scale of salaries for
Negro teachers and principals than for white teachers and
principals with equal qualifications and experience and
performing essentially the same duties. The practical
application of this salary schedule has been, is, and will
be to pay Negro teachers and principals of equal qualifica
tions, licenses and experience with white teachers and
principals less compensation from public funds solely on
account of Race or color.

14. In enforcing and maintaining the policy, regu
lation, custom and usage by which plaintiffs and other
Negro teachers and principals in the public schools of
Little Rock are uniformly paid lower salaries than white
teachers and principals possessing the same professional
qualifications and licenses, having the same experience,

exercising the same duties and performing essentially the
same services, solely on account of the Race or color of
the Plaintiffs, Defendants, as administrative agents ̂of
the State of Arkansas have violated and are continuing
to violate the equal protection of the laws and due process
clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States
Constitution, and Sections 41 and 43 of Title 8 of the
United States Code. To the extent that Defendants in
enforcing said discriminatory system are acting under
color of statute, regulation, (policy, custom or usage, said
statute, regulation), extent that Defendants may be acting
without benefit of statute, regulation, policy, custom or
usage, their acts are nevertheless acts of the State, simi
larly void and unconstitutional.

15. By virtue of the discriminatory salary schedule
for teachers established and maintained by the Defendants,
hereinbefore set forth in paragraph 13, and the custom
set out in paragraph 12, the plaintiff is denied an equal
and proportionate participation in the benefit derived
from that portion of her taxes devoted to the public school
[fol. 7] fund and the payment of teachers’ salaries there
from; she is denied said equal and proportionate partici
pation in said benefit and return solely on account of her
Race and color, contrary to the provisions of the Four
teenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United
States and thereby suffers and sustains special and par
ticular damage from the discrimination practiced against
her in the distribution of the fund which her taxes helped
to create; and she is without remedy, same this Honorable
Court issue its Writ of Injunction restraining the De
fendants from distributing on an unconstitutional basis,
and according to the discriminatory and unconstitutional
salary schedule hereinbefore described at paragraph 13,
the public school fund, to which Plaintiff contributes, and
which is used for the payment of teachers’ salaries.

16. A petition on behalf of Plaintiffs and on behalf of
all of the Negro teachers and principals in Little Rock,
was filed with the Defendants in March, 1941, requesting
that the salaries of Negro teachers and principals be equal
ized with those of white teachers and principals, with
equal qualifications and experience, and performing es

sentially the same duties; the petition was denied on or
about May 19, 1941.

17. Plaintiffs and those similarly situated and affected
on whose behalf this suit is brought are suffering irre
parable injury and are threatened with irreparable in
jury in the future by reason of the acts herein complained
of. They have no plain adequate or complete remedy to
redress the wrongs and illegal acts herein complained
of other than this suit for a declaration of rights and in
junction. Any other remedy to which Plaintiffs and those
similarly situated could be remitted would be attended
by such uncertainties and delays as to deny substantial
relief, would involve multiplicity of suits, cause further
irreparable injury, and occasion damage, vexation and
[fol. 8] inconvenience, not only to the Plaintiffs and those
similarly situated, but to Defendants as governmental
agencies.

18. There is between the parties an actual controversy
as hereinbefore set forth.

Wherefore, Plaintiffs respectfully pray the Court that
upon filing of this Complaint, as may appear proper and
convenient to the Court, the Court advance this cause
on the docket and order a speedy hearing of this action
according to law, and that upon such hearings:

(1) That this Court adjudge and decree, and declare
the rights and legal relations of the parties to the subject
matter here in controversy, in order that such declaration
shall have the force and effect of a final judgment or de
cree.

(2) That this Court enter a judgment or decree declar
ing that the policy, custom or usage of the defendants in
adopting, enforcing, or maintaining a salary schedule fix
ing the salaries of the Plaintiffs and other Negro teachers
and principals at a rate lower than that paid to white
teachers and principals of equal qualifications and ex
perience, and performing essentially the same duties and
services, solely because of their Race or color, is a denial
of the equal protection of the laws guaranteed by the
Fourteenth Amendment of the United States Constitution
and is, therefore, unconstitutional and void.

(3) That this Court enter a judgment or decree declar
ing that the distribution by the Defendants of that portion
of the public school fund for teachers’ salaries on a basis
whereby Plaintiff, Susie Morris, and other Negro teachers
and tax-payers receive less salary than white teachers and
tax-payers with equal qualifications and experience, and
performing essentially the same duties and services solely
because of their Race or color, denies to Plaintiff, Susie
[fol. 9] Morris, and others similarly situated the equal
protection of the laws and due process of law guaranteed
by the Fourteenth Amendment of the United States Con
stitution and is therefore unconstitutional.

(4) That this Court issue a permanent injunction for
ever restraining and enjoining the Defendants and each
of them from making any distinction solely on the grounds
of Race or color in the fixing of salaries paid white and
colored teachers and principals employed in the public
schools of the City of Little Rock.

(5) That this Court issue a permanent injunction for
ever restraining and enjoining the Defendants, and each
of them, from paying to Plaintiff, Susie Morris, or mem
bers of Plaintiff City Teachers ’ Association of Little Rock,
Arkansas, or any other colored teacher or principal em
ployed by them, a less salary than they pay any white
teacher or principal employed by them with equal quali
fications, certification, experience and filling an equivalent
position in the school, (public schools) of the City of
Little Rock.

(6) Plaintiffs further pray that the Court will allow
them their costs herein and such further, other additional
or alternative relief as may appear to the Court to be
equitable and just.

SUSIE MORRIS
City Teachers’ Association of
Little Rock
By Susie Morris

[fol. 10] Affidavit.
I, Susie Morris, Plaintiff in the above styled action, state

upon oath that I have read the Complaint, and that the
facts therein are true to the best of my knowledge and be
lief.

SUSIE MORRIS.

Subscribed and sworn to before me this the 28 day of
February, 1942.

LILLIE M. JONES,
(Notarial Seal) Notary Public.

My Commission expires Jan. 12, 1944.
SCIPIO A. JONES,
Century Building,
Little Rock, Ark.

Attorney.
J. R. BOOKER,
Century Building,
Little Rock, Ark.,

Attorney.
THURGOOD MARSHALL,
69 5tb Avenue,
New York City,

Attorney.
Filed Feb. 28, 1942. Grady Miller, Clerk.

[fol. 11] Answer.
1. Defendants deny that the matter in controversy here

exceeds, exclusive of interest and costs, the sum of $3,000,
and state that there is not here involved any right, priv
ilege or immunity of personal liberty, or any right, priv
ilege or immunity not capable of money valuation, but
that the deprivation alleged by the plaintiff is susceptible
of valuation in money, and defendants deny that this Court
has jurisdiction under Judicial Code, Section 24 (1), 28
U. S. C., Section 41 (1), or under Judicial Code, Section
24 (14), U. S. C., Section 41 (14), or under Sections 41
and 43 of Title 8 of the United States Code.

2. Defendants deny that there is a practice on their part
to adopt, enforce and maintain a policy, custom or usage
by which Plaintiffs and other Negro teachers and prin
cipals in the public schools of the City of Little Rock are
uniformly paid lower salaries than White teachers and
principals in the City of Little Rock possessing the same
professional qualifications and certificates, exercising the
same duties and performing the same services; deny that
if there be any difference in salaries paid to teachers and

principals in the public schools of Little Rock, the differ
ence is based in whole or in part on race and color; deny
that any practice of the defendants in the payment of
salaries to teachers and principals in the public schools of
Little Rock is in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment
to the Constitution of the United States or in violation of
any other law of the United States.

3. Defendants admit the allegation contained in para
graphs 3, 4, 7, 9 and 18 of the complaint.
[fol. 12] 4. Defendants admit that the plaintiff, City
Teachers’ Association of Little Rock, is a voluntary un
incorporated association composed of Negro teachers and
principals in the public colored schools of the city, but
state that its substantive rights are not involved herein
and it is not a proper plaintiff.

5. Defendants admit the allegations contained in para
graph 6 of the complaint, except that now the defendant,
Robert M. Williams, is no longer Chairman, and the de
fendant, Murray 0. Reed, is no longer Secretary, but that
the defendants,' R. M. Blakely and E. F. Jennings, re
spectively fill those positions.

6. Defendants admit the allegations contained in para
graph 8 of the complaint, but state that the requirements
imposed by the State Board of Education for licenses to
teach are minimum requirements only and that all cer
tificates issued by the State Board of Education are mere
ly evidences that minimum requirements to teach have
been satisfied.

7. Defendants deny that they have over a long period
of time or at any time consistently pursued and main
tained, and deny that they are now pursuing and maintain
ing, a policy, custom or usage of paying Negro teachers
and principals in the public schools of Little Rock less sal
ary than White teachers and principals in said public
school system possessing the same professional qualifica
tions, licenses, and experience, exercising the same duties
and performing the same services as Negro teachers and
principals, and deny that any difference in salaries paid
to teachers in the public schools of Little Rock, is based
in whole or in part on race or color.

8. Defendants admit that the plaintiff, Susie Morris,
and all other Negro teachers and principals in public
schools in the City of Little Rock, are teachers by profes
sion and are specially trained for their calling, but state
[fol. 13] that they differ as among themselves and as com
pared to some white teachers and principals in the public
schools in the City of Little Rock in degree of special
training, ability, character, professional qualifications, ex
perience, duties, services, and accomplishments. Defend
ants deny that the plaintiff, Susie Morris, and any or all
other Negro teachers and principals in the City of Little
Rock are being denied the equal protection of the law in
that by reason of their race and color they are being de
nied compensation from public funds for their services as
teachers equal in amount to the compensation provided
from public funds for and being paid to white teachers
with equal qualifications and experience for equivalent
services, and state that if in individual cases the compen
sation paid to teachers and principals varies in amount,
the difference is based solely on special training, ability,
character, professional qualifications, experience, duties,
services and accomplishments.

9. Defendants admit the allegations contained in para
graph 12 of the complaint, except defendants state that
the plaintiff, Susie Morris, in qualifying for a license to
teach and in satisfying the same requirements as those
exacted of all other teachers, white as well as Negro, in
qualifying therefor, satisfied only minimum requirements
imposed for the privilege of teaching in the public schools
of the City of Little Rock; and defendants deny that the
plaintiff, Susie Morris, exercises the same duties and
performs services substantially equivalent to those per
formed by all other holders of a license to teach, white as
well as Negro; and state that if white teachers in Little
Rock receive salaries larger than that paid to the said
plaintiff, then those salaries are based solely on difference
in special training, ability, character, professional quali
fications, experience, duties, services and accomplish
ments, and in no part are based on race or color.
[fol. 14] 10. Defendants deny that they have established
and maintained at any time a salary schedule and deny
that there is now a salary schedule used to fix the amount

of compensation for teachers and principals, white or
Negro, in the public schools of Little Rock, and deny that
any salary paid to any Negro teacher or principal is fixed
in whole or in part on race or color.

11. Defendants deny that they have maintained a policy,
regulation, custom or usage by which plaintiff or any
other Negro teacher or principal in the public schools of
Little Rock is or has been uniformly paid a lower salary
than White teachers and principals possessing the same
professional qualifications and licenses, having the same ex
perience, exercising the same duties and performing essen
tially the same services and deny all other allegations con
tained in paragraph 14 of the complaint.

12. Defendants deny that there is a salary schedule for
teachers, discriminatory or otherwise; that there is any dis
criminatory custom as alleged in paragraph 12 and as re
ferred to in paragraph 15 of the complaint; and the plain
tiff, Susie Morris, is denied an equal and proportionate
participation in the benefit derived from that portion of
her taxes devoted to the public school fund and the pay
ment of teachers’ salaries therefrom. Defendants state
that the said plaintiff participates equally and proportion
ately in said public school fund in accordance with the pro
visions of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution
of the United States, and is without damage by reason of
such participation. Defendants deny that plaintiff, if ag
grieved, is without remedy except in this Court.

13. Defendants admit the allegations contained in para
graph 16 of the complaint, but state that the petition
therein referred to was denied solely because there is no
[fol. 15] inequality in the salaries paid to white and Negro
teachers and principals in the public schools of the City of
Little Rock.

14. Defendants deny all allegations contained in para
graph 17 of the complaint.

Wherefore, having fully answered, defendants pray that
the complaint be dismissed, that they have judgment for

their costs herein, and for such further relief as may ap
pear to the Court to be just and equitable.

J. F. LOUGHBOROUGH,
WILLIAM NASH,
of ROSE, LOUGHBOROUGH,

DOBYNS & HOUSE,
Attorneys for Defendants,

Address: 314 West Markham,
Little Rock, Arkansas.

Filed Mar. 27, 1942. Grady Miller, Clerk.

[fol. 16] (Order of District Court dismissing Cause as
to Plaintiff, City Teachers’ Association of Little
Rock.)

The motion of the defendants to dismiss the complaint
of the plaintiffs, City Teachers’ Association of Little Rock,
because it is not seeking to enforce a substantive right ex
isting in it under the Constitution or laws of the United
States is sustained.

THOMAS C. TRIMBLE,
United States District Judge.

May 20, 1942.
Filed May 20, 1942. Grady Miller, Clerk.

[fol. 23] (Transcript of Testimony.)
(Filed in U. S. District Court on December 28, 1942.)

In The District Court Of The United States For The
Western Division Of The Eastern District of

Arkansas.
Susie Morris, Plaintiff,

vs.
Robert M. Williams, Chairman, Murray 0. Reed, Secre

tary, Mrs. W. P. McDermott, et al., Constituting
Board of Directors of the Little Rock Special School
District, and Russell T. Scobee, Superintendent of
Schools, Defendants.

Be It Remembered That On This The 28th day of Sep
tember, A. D., 1942, this cause coming on to be heard be

fore the Honorable Thomas C. Trimble, Judge of the Court
aforesaid, the plaintiff appearing in person and by Thur-
good Marshall, Scipio A. Jones, J. R. Booker and Myles
A. Hibbler, as her Counsel, and the defendants appearing
in person and by Rose, Loughborough, Dobyns & House,
as their counsel, and all parties announcing ready for trial,
the Court proceeded as follows:

The plaintiff’s case was opened to the Court by J. R.
Booker, her counsel, and the defendants’ case was opened
to the Court by William Nash, of counsel, and Mr. Lough
borough, of counsel, and a further statement by Thurgood
Marshall, of counsel, and further statement by Mr. Lough
borough.
[fol. 24] Whereupon, the Court proceeded as follows:

C r a w f o r d G r e e n , sworn as a witness on behalf of the
plaintiff, testified as follows on:

Direct Examination.
By Thurgood Marshall:

Q. Will you give your full name and address'?
A. Miles Crawford Green, 601 North Monroe Street,

Little Rock, Arkansas.
Q. Your present occupation?
A. I am Director of School Administration.
Q. And is it a part of your duty to accept records from

the individual school hoards and use to state these
statistics ?

A. No, sir, we accept these records from the county
school supervisors who have collected them from the local
school boards.

Q. And you have in your possession the regular report
submitted by the Little Rock School, Special School Dis
trict of Little Rock?

A. Let me clarify that. The records come from the
county school supervisors who have collected them from
the local boards. Now, the record that we have are those
filed from Pulaski County, the county records, and the
Little Rock portion of the county records have been sub-
[fol. 25] mitted by the Little Rock School System.

Q. Are they in your possession?
A. Certain ones of them, yes.

Q. Which ones do you have, for which years?
A. I have the records and I have all of the informa

tion pertaining to the names and qualifications and salaries
of teachers from 1922 to 1942. We went back into the old
files, and we have the county examiner’s and county su
perintendent’s record book beginning in 1922, and these
record books do not give all of the information that was
requested of me. I checked the other information that was
up to a certain date, after which they ceased to give the
names of the individual teachers, and the records then were
furnished on typewritten or mimeographed sheets, and
the sheets from the year 1935 and 1936 have been de
stroyed. They were filed in the basement, and the rats
and termites got them; but I have here the teacher data
blanks which give the salary per month, the number of
months’ contract, position, years’ training, kind of license,
their experience in this school from 1935-1936 to 1941-42.

Mr. Loughborough: If the Court please, we make sug
gestion at this time that the testimony back of 1941 is only
for the purpose of showing the custom. I suppose it is only
[fol. 26] offered for that purpose.

Mi. Marshall: If Your Honor please, we consider part
of oui case, which is alleged by us and denied by the other
side, that there is a definite policy, custom and arrange
ment which has been extended over a number of years, and
we think that the evidence will develop that quite a number
of these salaries have been the same for a number of
years; and so we wanted to show the custom, policy and
usage, and we think that we should be permitted to intro
duce it.

Mr. Loughborough: Our objection is it is only for that
purpose. The reason for that is that some time ago counsel
for the other side wrote us a letter and wanted us to con
sent that they amend the complaint and claim damages
back in addition to the injunction, and we would not con
sent to it, and I didn’t think it was proper to change the
whole theory of the case, and we didn’t want to be in the
attitude of consenting for the testimony to come which
they might claim amounted to an amendment of the com
plaint.

1 6

Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, we are not offer
ing it for that purpose, and an amendment will not be
suggested.

The Court: You are only wanting it in for the purpose
ffol. 27] of evidence in this case?

Mr. Marshall: In this particular case and not on a
question or matter of damages.

The Court: All right, it will be admitted.
Mr. Loughborough: We don’t object to it on any ques

tion except of damages.
The Court: I understand that you don’t, all right.
Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, we should like

to introduce these sheets for 1935 to date, giving this
data, and no objections from the other side, Sir.

The Court: All right.
Exhibit 1-A to 1-G, inclusive, admitted in evidence.

[fol. 28] By Mr. Marshall: (Resuming Direct Examina
tion.)

Q. Mr. Green, do you compile the annual reports for
the State Board of Education from records submitted to
you?

A. The statistical portion of the reports is compiled by
my division of the Department of Education. I do not do
it personally.

Q. And is it a portion of that report the tables showing
expenditure per school child in Pulaski County?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how is that figure arrived at?
A. We determine the expenditures by taking the, —

it is a different report from this, hut it is comparable to
this report which we have here. Each county supervisor
turns in to us a report of information about each school
district in his county, and that information, among other
things, includes information on enrollment, average num
ber and average daily attendance, receipts and expendi
tures. From these, these tables are compiled, that is,
that information is compiled on the county basis then on
a state-wide basis, and we arrive at certain figures. In

certain instances we worked out brief tables which give us
comparisons for the separate counties of the state. A
good many items of data is not worked up on a county
basis but worked out on state averages.

Q. And the last figures that you have are for 1939-40?
[fol. 29] A. That is right.

Q. And do you have the average expenditure for the
average school district in Pulaski County for white and
colored?

A. Yes, sir, as compiled by the State Commission of
Education for the biennium 1939-1940. It is as follows:

Mr. Nash: If the Court please, that is county statistics.
I don’t see its relevancy here. It does not apply to this
district, the Little Rock Special School District.

Mr. Marshall: It is not broken down into districts?
Is that correct?

A. That is right.
Mr. Marshall: It is the only one we can get, it is the

nearest we can come.
The Court: What do you want to do?
Mr. Marshall: We want to show so far as this school

district, or rather, insofar as this county in which this
school district is, that is, by that record, there has been a
policy, custom and usage of spending less money per
child for the colored than for the white.

The Court: Do you think that is proper. This is a spe-
[fol. 30] cial school district.

Mr. Marshall: This is included in the county district?
A. Yes, sir.
The Court: I will let him testify.
Mr. Loughborough: It is all included in one figure.
The Court: At this time I will allow it to come in. It

can be excluded later.

Mr. Loughborough: Note our exceptions.

2—12,887

1 8

The Court: All right.
A. This shows the expenditure per child and average

daily attendance in the year 1939-40 reflected in the re
ports of the county supervisor is $53.00 per white child
and $37.00 per Negro child.

Q. And what was the revenue per child available?
A. The revenue per child available was $47.00 on an

average.
Q. Now, Mr. Green, do you also have the figures for

the same year to show the average annual salary paid
per Negro teacher and per white teacher—strike that—
do you have the figures showing the average salary per
[fol. 31] teacher in the Special School District for Little
Rock? A. No.

Q. Do you have the figures showing the average salary
for junior white colleges in the State of Arkansas?

A. Yes.
Mr. Loughborough: Same objection to the State of

Arkansas.
Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, that particular

evidence, the average salary in the state, was held to be
admissible in every other case as showing the state policy
and what it would be where there was a state policy as
to schedule of salaries. These districts are so inter-de
pendent.

The Court: It will be overrruled at this time, and I
will reserve the right to pass on that later.

Mr. Marshall: Have you some there?
A. In 1939-40 the average salary of elementary teach

ers, white $526.00, Negro $331.00; high school teachers,
$856.00 for the whites and for the Negroes $567.00; for
all teachers, that is, elementary and high school, $625.00
for whites and $367.00 for the Negro. Now, I have that
[fol. 32] information here on superintendents or princi
pals and supervisors—on principals, teachers and super
visors. These figures I quoted were for teachers only.

Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, the other, I think,
is immaterial, and we would restrict it to just teachers,
Sir.

The Court : All right.
Mr. Marshall: No further questions.

Cross-Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Mr. Green, do you know what Negro colleges in
Arkansas are accredited by the North Central Associa
tion?

A. Right offhand I just couldn’t tell you. We are com
piling the information for our new directory, but unfor
tunately I didn’t bring my directory, but somehow or
other I don’t believe that any college in Arkansas is ac
credited by the North Central Association, any Negro
college. I am not positive of that, however.

Q. Is there any other accrediting association operating
in Arkansas? Is the North Central Association the only
one that has the function of accrediting schools in Arkan
sas?

A. Well, it is the chief one. There are other associa-
[fol. 33] tions to which various colleges belong, such as
the American Association of Colleges, and so on; but
about accrediting them, I don’t know of any one that is
generally recognized as being an accrediting association
except the North Central. The North Central Associa
tion accredits all our high schools and our colleges gen
erally. Now, there may be some other association which
accredits them, but it is not generally recognized as such.

Q. And you say it is your best recollection that no
Negro colleges are accredited by the North Central Associ
ation? A. I think I am right on that.

Q. Who in your department would know for a cer
tainty?

A. Well, if I had my record book, our directory, I
could tell you. Mr. Stinnett, Mr. T. M. Stinnett, the As
sistant Commissioner of Education, that is in his division.

Q. Your record book, is that at the State House?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It would merely be a matter of your returning

there and obtaining a copy of it? A. That is right.
Q. Will you be in town today all day? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nash: That is all.
The witness was excused.

2 0

[fol. 34] E. F. Jennings, sworn as a witness on behalf of
the plaintiff, testified as follows on

Direct Examination.
Mr. Marshall: May it please the Court, Mr. Jennings

is one of the defendants in the case, and I ask permission
to proceed under Rule 43B for examination of an adverse
Avitness by cross-examination and leading questions.

The Court: All right.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Will you give your name? A. E. F. Jennings.
Q. Your occupation? A. Automobile dealer
Q. How long have you been on the School Board of

Special School District of Little Rock?
A. About a year and a half.
Q. And at the present time, what position do you hold

on the School Board? A. President of the School Board.
Q. Mr. Jennings, will you give us in as brief form

as possible the duties of the School Board as you under
stand them?
[fol. 35] A. Well, the duties of the School Board are, you
might say, the operation of the school district, looking
after the personnel and doing all of the necessary duties
in looking after the functioning of the school district.

Q. Isn’t it true you have the entire supervision of the
entire public school system? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Including the appointing and fixing of the salaries
of the individual teachers? A. That is right.

Q. Where do you get the funds for running the school
district?

A. They come from taxes from the state, or from the
state fund.

Q. And they are expended by order of the School
Board? A. That is right.

Q. In other words, you have charge of the distribution
of the public school fund in your district? A. Yes.

Q. Do you maintain separate schools for white and
colored pupils? A. We do.

Q. Are all of the teachers in the white schools of the
white race? A. They are.
[fol. 36] Q. All of the teachers in the Negro schools of
the Negro ra'ce? A. Right, so far as I know.

Q. Going to the question of appointing individual
teachers, is it not true that the superintendent and the
personnel committee make a formal report to your board
for the appointment of a teacher? A. They do.

Q. And they recommend the salary for the teacher?
A. Yes.
Q. And in the report, is it not also true that the board

designates Negro teachers as Negro teachers?
A. I am not sure about that. I do not believe that it

does.
Q. When it comes—when you come to consider the ap

pointment of an individual teacher, do you not know
whether the teacher is white or colored?

A. You know by reason of the fact of the school you
teach in.

Q. So you know that an individual teacher to be ap
pointed at Dunbar would be a Negro teacher? A. Yes.

Q. And a teacher to be appointed to a white school
would be a white teacher, you know that? A. Yes.
[fol. 37] Q. Since you have been on the School Board,
is it not true that all of the employing of new teachers,
white teachers new to the system, has always been at a
higher salary than Negro teachers new to the system?

A. Well, I don’t recall any specific case where there
is a salary difference.

Q. Do you remember whether or not they were given
the same salary, the new teachers, both white and colored?

A. I don’t recall what they were given.
Q. You do not know what salaries they got?
A. Well, approximately.
Q. Well, approximately, don’t the Negro teachers get

less than the white new teachers?
A. I think the record will show it.
Q. You think the record will show that? A. Yes.
Q. Can you give any reason for that?
A. The difference in qualification and ability and train

ing.
Q. Did you ever go into any of the qualifications of

any of the teachers? A. I did not.
Q. You followed the recommendation of the personnel

committee? A. I did.
Q. Did it strike you funny that all the Negro teachers

got less?

2 2

[f0.1. 38] A. No.
Q. Well, why not? Did you think they were all in

ferior?
A. I did not think they were all qualified as well as

the white people.
Q. Didn’t you think some of them might be?
A Possibly, but I didn’t go into the individual teach

ers’ qualifications, that is, it was not a matter of the work
of the Board.

Q. In your business and in your experience in Little
Rock, is it the policy around Little Rock to pay Negroes
less than whites?

A. Well, I think that would depend upon the nature
of the occupation.

Q. You do not think it is the policy to pay Negroes in
the same occupation less than you pay white people in
the same occupation? A. I do not think so.

Q. Do you remember the deposition that we took Sat
urday a week ago? A. Yes.

Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, reading from
page 128 of the deposition, 128.

Q. Do you remember me asking you the following
question on this deposition, in speaking of teachers of
[fol. 39] equal qualifications, “ Question: We assume
they are both equally fit, the white and the Negro teacher,
then would you be in favor of paying the Negro teacher
less because you could get him for less?” And the answer:
“ Not necessarily, I would say because the prevailing rate
of pay is less for colored people. Question: Do you mean
it is the custom in this community to pay Negroes less?
Answer: Probably so. Question: And the School Board
is following that general custom? Answer: They are
hiring tea'chers at a price they can afford to pay.” Do
you remember that? A. I do.

Q. Well, is it or is it not true that there is a custom
of paying Negroes less in Little Rock?

A. I still say depending upon the occupation.
Q. All right. You have been on the Board since 1940

or 1941? A. Spring of 1941.
Q. And you made the appointment of several teachers

last year and this year. Is that not true? A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember the meeting of July 30, 1941?

A. Not specifically. There was such a meeting.
Q. Mr. Jennings, do you remember that on that date,

at which time you were present, that the following candi-
[fol. 40] dates were presented for election to the school
system and were elected as follows: Dixie Dean Wyatt,
Home Economics, $900.00; Lucille Hobbs, Commercial,
$900.00; W. L. Myer, Band, $900.00; Frances Vogler, Eng
lish, $981.27. Do you remember those teachers'?

A. No, I don’t remember them. If they were in the
minutes, that was done, but I do not remember them spe
cifically.

Q. Reading further, “ Elementary. Mary Alice Hood,
teacher, $810.00; Bessie Benson, transfer from clerk to
teacher, $810.00; Juanita Street, transfer from part-time
clerk to full time, $675.00.” They were all white teachers.
Is that not true?

A. I couldn’t say because I don’t remember.
Q. Well, in the minutes where it appears merely ele

mentary or junior high or senior high, is it not true that
that has always been white? A. That is correct.

Q. And you designate the colored as colored schools.
Is that not also true? A. Yes.

Q. And about the schools where there is no designation
besides this, they are white?

A. I assume they are white.
Q. Reading further, “ Colored Schools. Eunice Brum

field, Mathematics, $630.00; M. J. McCallop, Shop, $630.00;
[fol. 41] Mildred Works, Home Economics, $630.00; Otis
T. Harris, Mathematics and Science, $630.00; D. P. Tyler,
Science, $630.00; Marjorie Bush, Elementary, $615.00.”
Now, Mr. Jennings, in the list that I have read to you, all
of the colored teachers appointed to the high school on
July 30, 1941, were paid $630.00, and the one Negro ap
pointed to the elementary school was given $615.00; with
one exception of $981.29, all of the white teachers .appoint
ed to white schools were appointed for $900.00, and all of
the white elementary teachers new to the system were ap
pointed at $810.00. Can you explain why the white high
school teachers were given $900.00 and colored high school
teachers were given $630.00?

A. It was because we had to pay that much to get the
white teachers and we could get the colored teachers for
that figure mentioned.

Q. Is that because you were operating on a budget or
because you were trying to save money?

A. We operate on a budget.
Q. You try to save money?
A. We try to keep from spending any more than we

can.
Q. But you can get colored teachers for less than you

can get white?
A. Yes, because you can get them.

[fob 42] Q. Why don’t you hire colored teachers in the
white schools then?

A. Because I don’t think that would be legal.
Q. And why did you pay all of the elementary white

teachers $900.00 and the colored $615.00?
A. Because we couldn’t get them for less.
Q. Isn’t it true since you have been with the School

Board you have not hired any white teachers below a min
imum ?

A. I don’t know, we have no minimum I know of.
Q. Have you hired any white teachers below $610.00? ,
A. No.
Q. Have you ever discussed raising these salaries?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. What happened to the petition filed by the Negro

teachers ?
A. I don’t know that I ever saw any such petition.
Q. Do you remember it being discussed?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember in 1941 while you w7ere there,

there was a supplementary payment to teachers?
A. Yes.
Q. Sir? A. Yes.
Q. Isn’t it a fact that was distributed to the Negro

teachers on a dollar and a half per unit and three dollars
to white teachers per unit?
[fol. 43] A. To the best of my recollection, that was on
a test basis.

Q. All of the white teachers, regardless of how quali
fied they might he, were given twice as much as any Negro
teacher, regardless of how qualified he might he?

A. That, at least, would be—
Q. Also the most inefficient white teacher in the school

system of Little Bock would get twice as much per unit as
the most efficient Negro teacher?

A. Well, it was distributed on the basis mentioned.
Q. And there was no question of the efficiency of the

teacher in that?
A. That was taken into consideration, the efficiency

qualification and other things arrived at by the teachers,
themselves.

Q. By the teachers, themselves. Were there any Negro
teachers on the committee?

A. I could not say.
Q. Have you tried to find out? A. No.
Q. Are you interested at all in what salaries the Negro

teachers are getting? A. Why, certainly.
Q. Have you ever made any question of whether they

are getting less than the white teachers?
[fol. 44] A. Never have.

Q. Going back to this supplemental payment which was
made again in 1942, was it not, another payment?

A. It was.
Q. And made on the same basis? A. Yes.
Q. A dollar and a half per unit to the Negro and three

dollars to the white per unit?
A. I think it was made on the same basis as the first

one.
Q. Can you give—strike that—when this report was

presented to the Board, was it made clear that there was
a dollar and a half per unit to the white teachers and three
dollars per unit—pardon me, I mean was it made clear
that it was three dollars per unit to the white teachers and
a dollar and a half per unit to the Negro teachers? Was
that made clear to the Board when it was presented?

A. I do not recall any distinction. The figure was given,
but I do not recall any distinction.

Q. You do recall it was double for the white teacher
what it was for the colored teacher?

A. Apparently it was, you have the figures there.
Q. Can you give any other reason other than the race

of the teacher involved?
A. Yes, I think there were a lot of other reasons, the

[fol. 45] amount of remuneration the teachers were re
ceiving then.

Q. Mr. Jennings, isn’t it true that a list was made ac
cording to training and according to experience and ac
cording to the salary and then there was a unit worked
out for that?

2 6

A. I understand there was a basis worked out for the
distribution of this money. I didn’t participate in working
out the basis, and I am not familiar with the details.

Q. I say, isn’t it clear to your mind they worked out a
unit that was applied both to the white and Negro teach
ers alike? A. That is right.

Q. And on the basis of that unit, the white teacher was
given twice as much per unit as the colored? A. Yes.

Q. Was there any reason for that?
A. Yes, when you come to fix that you take into con

sideration the qualifications and ability of the person get
ting it.

Q. Do you think the white teachers more valuable than
the colored teachers? A. As a whole, yes.

Q. And isn’t that consideration all based on race?
A. No.
Q. You say you think all of the white teachers are more

[fol. 46] responsible and valuable than all the Negro teach
ers, but you still don’t think that is grounded on race?

A. No.
Q. Do you not know there are several Negro teachers

in Dunbar High School with better qualifications than
teachers in the white high school?

A. That would depend upon your definition of qual
ification.

Q. Well, do you admit that there is any teacher in the
Negro high school as qualified as the worst teacher in the
white high school ?

A. Well, I ’m not qualified to say, I ’m not familiar
with it.

Q. So far as you are concerned, you don’t know the
reason for this distribution of twice as much to the white
as to the Negro teachers, for the distribution of that
money ?

A. I know it was arrived at and how it was arrived at,
it was arrived at by a committee of the teachers.

Q. Isn’t it true that committee was composed of white
teachers solely?

A. I don’t know. As I said, it was left to the teachers
and I didn’t consider the mechanics of it.

Q. You went into it?
A. Nothing except the disbursements.

Q. You do not know of any, do yon, of any Negro teacher
[fol. 47] new to the system that has been given as much
as the least paid white teacher? A. No, I don’t.

Q. Do you happen to know that the plaintiff in this
case gets less than any white teacher in the school system?
Did you ever notice that in the records?

A. No, I didn’t.
Q. Once a year they put in the records a list and salaries

of teachers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever question anybody about the fact the

salaries of Negro teachers are less than white teachers?
A. No.

Mr. Marshall: Your witness.

Cross-Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Mr. Jennings, do you recall when you were elected
to the School Board?

A. The election was in December, 1940, and I took office
in the spring of 1941.

Q. You have served on the School Board, then, since the
spring of 1941 ? A. That is right.

Q. Do you recall what month you were installed?
[fol. 48] A. I think it was April, I am not sure, but I
believe it was April, 1941.

Q. You are now President of the School Board?
A. I am.
Q. When did you take office as such?
A. It was in the spring of this year, I believe April of

this year, it was the past either April or May.
Q. Have you ever employed applicants as teachers?
A. I never have—you mean personally?
Q. Personally.
A. No, I have not.
Q. Have you served on the Teachers’ Committee since

you have been a member of the School Board?
A. I have not.
Q. Other than in the capacity of being a School Board

member, have you personally considered the individual
qualifications of the school teachers in our system?

A. I have not.

2 8

Q. Who has the function of making the preliminary
investigation of applicants for teaching jobs in our public
school system?

A. The Superintendent of Schools, Mr. Scobee.
Q. Is he charged with the responsibility by the School

Board, itself? A. He is.
[fol. 49] Q. Do you purport to understand fully what he
does in making his investigations?

A. No, I do not.
Q. Or do you leave it to him?
A. No, personally, I don’t know.
Q. After he has made his investigation, do you know

what is the next step, then, in employing applicants?
A. It is left to the Personnel Committee to pass upon.
Q. Do you know of your own knowledge exactly what

the Personnel Committee does in making its investigation
of applicants ?

A. Not of my own knowledge, no, because I have not
been on the Personnel Committee, but only by hearsay and
report.

Q. What does the Personnel Committee do with its
recommendations and report?

A. They make a recommendation to the Board recom
mending employment of certain teachers.

Q. Does the Personnel Committee, itself, actually em
ploy teachers and actually fix the salaries?

A. No, that is done by order or by action of the Board.
The Personnel Committee has no authority to actually
employ the teachers but recommends to the Board the
various teachers and their salaries, and so on, but the Board
passes on it.
[fol. 50] Q. Do you recall any instance in which the
Personnel Committee recommended that a certain applicant
be paid a certain salary because that applicant was a colored
person? A. I do not.

Q. Do you recall any time when the Personnel Com
mittee has reported that certain applicants should be paid
certain salaries because they are white?

A. I don’t recall anything of that kind.
Q. Or employ other applicants at a certain salary

because they are colored? A. No.
Q. Is there a fixed salary schedule used by the School

Board in employing teachers for the first time?

A. None that I have ever seen.
Q. Is there any fixed salary schedule for renewing

contracts each year? Have you seen such a schedule?
A. I am not sure about that. I don’t know of any such

schedule.
Q. Have you seen such a schedule?
A. I never have.
Q. Have you ever served as Secretary of the School

Board? A. Never have.
Q. Have you ever assisted in the preparation of

minutes of the School Board meetings?
[fol. 51] A. I have not.

Q. Are you able to say from your recollection whether
in every instance the colored teachers have been designated
as such?

A. The only designation I know of is the school to which
they are assigned. There would be no other designations
in those cases.

Q. Do you know whether it is the policy of the School
Board in listing new teachers, those teachers new for the
first time, to list the colored teachers last and designate
them as such?

A. I don’t recall, I could not say that it was.
Q. Are you able to say what has been the policy in that

connection prior to the time you came to the School Board?
A. No, I am not.
Q. Would it take a procedural examination of the

minutes to disclose whether any such policy was in exist
ence? A. It would by me.

Q. Has the School Board, since you have been there,
or been a member of it, discussed the policy of paying
colored teachers less than white teachers because they are
colored? A. No.

Q. What is your personal inclination in that direction?
A. I do not understand your question.

[fol. 52] Q. Having—if an applicant were recommended
by the Personnel Committee as having the same teaching
qualities and being equally desirable to the school system
as teachers and recommended the same salaries to be paid
to them, and one was white and one was colored, would you
refuse to follow the recommendation of the committee and
pay the colored teacher less?

A. No, I would accept the recommendation of the com
mittee unless there was something I knew about it.

Q. Mention was made that a petition had been filed by
the Negro teachers for the adjustment in their salaries.
Do you know whether that was filed before you came on
the Board or after?

A. It was filed, it must have been before I came on the
Board, because I recall no such petition. I have never
seen one to the best of my knowledge, and it may have
been one before I took office, but I have never seen one,
myself.

Q. Mention has been made of the distribution of income
derived from the state and the basis upon which that distri
bution was made, that is, three dollars per unit to each
white teacher and one dollar and fifty cents to each unit
to each colored teacher. Did you say you did not prepare
that plan of distribution?

A. I had nothing Avhatever to do with the basis of arriv-
[fol. 53] ing at that plan of distribution. It was recom
mended to the Board in that form and we approved it.

Q. You accepted the recommendation of the commit
tee? A. That is right.

Q. Do you know, of your own knowledge, whether some
colored teachers in our public school system are paid more
than some white teachers of the same or comparative
qualifications?

A. I think there are a few cases that have been called
to my attention that the colored teacher gets more than
some of the white teachers, but I could not be specific and
say I knew definitely, personally, every one.

Q. Have you undertaken personally to make a critical
examination of all the salaries paid in the Little Rock
Public School System?

A. I have not.
Q. You know whether such a critical examination has

been made by someone?
A. I suppose the Superintendent and Personnel Com

mittee would make one.

Mr. Nash: That is all.

Redirect Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Mr. Jennings, about this petition that was filed by the
[fol. 54] colored teachers of the Special School District
of Little Rock. You are positive that it never came before
the Board?

A. No, I am positive I don’t remember it coming before
the Board. There may have been such a petition, but I
certainly don’t remember ever seeing it or know anything
about it.

Q. That is right. Now, on the question of whether or
not you would make any changes in the recommendation of
the Personnel Committee, on the recommendation of the
Personnel Committee. Since you have been there, have
you ever made any question about the fact that all of the
new Negro teachers get less than the white beginning
teachers? A. I never have.

Q. Did you ever go into the qualifications, since you
were on the Board, have you ever gone into the qualifica
tions of any teacher other than from the record of the
Personnel Committee? A. No, I have not.

Q. The Personnel Committee does not give the
qualification of the teacher but merely gives the name of
the teacher and the school and salary?

A. That is right.
Q. So you have never gone into the qualifications?
A. That is right.
Q. Isn’t it about the fact that so far as you are con-

[fol. 55] cerned you have not based the salaries on that,
but you have left that entirely to the Personnel Committee?

A. That is right.
Mr. Marshall: That is all.
Mr. Nash: No further questions.
The witness was excused.

Mrs. W. P. McDermott, sworn as a witness on behalf
of the plaintiff, testified as follows on

Direct Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Mrs. McDermott, will you give your full name and
address?

A. Lillian J. McDermott, 5326 Sherwood Road.
Q. You are a member of the School Board?
A. I am.
Q. Special School District of Little Rock? A. I am.

Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, I ask permission
to proceed with her under the same rule 43 B —

The Court: All right.

[fol. 56] Q. Do you remember, approximately, how
many years you have been on the School Board 1

A. Since 1922.
Q. Since 1922? A. Yes.
Q. And during that time you have been a member of

the Personnel Committee on several occasions. It that
true? A. That is true.

Q. And as a member of that Personnel Committee, you
are acquainted with the procedure of that committee ?

A. Yes.
Q. Would you in as brief detail as possible outline the

procedure followed in the committee on the appointment
of teachers?

A. When the committee is called together, the Superin
tendent presents the committee with the list of teachers
and the position he is recommending them for, together
with their qualifications showing the schools they are
graduates of, the degree they held, and their personality,
and traits and other things, and each person is discussed
as an individual.

Q. Do the members of the committee ever call m the
teachers or is that left to the Superintendent?

A. That is left to the Superintendent, although some
times the applicants do see the members of the Personnel
[fol. 57] Committee.

Q. But not while the Committee is meeting?
A. I don’t recall that they ever have.
Q. Do you remember — strike that — do you know

the plaintiff in this case, Susie Morris? A. I do not.
Q. In the question of salaries of teachers, after they

are once appointed there come times when increases are
made in the past. Is that not true?

A. In some instances, yes.

Q. In the past is it not true there have been blanket
increases, so much for each white teacher and so much for
each colored teacher, in the past?

A. Yes, I think there have been on two occasions, two
or three, when we have given increases to all teachers.

Q. And in each of these blanket increases, there has
been no question as to the qualification or experience of
these teachers, has there?

A. I wouldn’t say that.
Q. Hasn’t the procedure been in each of these three

occasions you have mentioned, you give a flat increase,
so many dollars per year to every white teacher in the
system, isn’t that the way it has been?

A. Oh, both white and colored, we have given some
increases.

Q. And isn’t it true that the least amount in each in-
[fol. 58] stance has been given to each Negro teacher?

A. Yes.
Q. So that so far as that distribution is concerned, the

basis of distribution about how much money you get has
depended upon the race of the teacher?

A. No, indeed.
Q. Well, is it possible for any Negro teacher to get

more than that flat increase ?
A. I did not work that out, but that was worked out

by or with the Finance Committee.
Q. Isn’t it true that in May of 1927 a flat increase of

$75.00 per year was made for all white teachers and a
flat increase to all Negro teachers of $50.00 per year.
Do you remember that?

A. I could not testify to that, but the minutes will
show it though.

Q. You were a member of the Board on May 21, 1927?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. I show you the minutes for the date of May 21,

1927, at a meeting at which you were present and show
you the following two items and ask you does that re
fresh your recollection on it? (Shows to witness).

A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. So that all white teachers with the exception of —
A. Six.

3—12.887

[fol. 59] Q. Six, received a flat increase of $75.00, and
that was regardless of their merits as a teacher. Is that
not true?

A. No, that is on the basis of their pay, I would say.
Q. Now, isn’t it true that the worst white teacher got

$75.00 a year more than she was getting?
A. All of the teachers got it.
Q. And was it possible, under that rule, for a Negro

teacher to get more than $50.00?
A. I would not say it was impossible. They did not get

it, but I would not say it was impossible.
Q. And all of them got it regardless of how good they

might he.
A. All of them got it regardless of how good they

might be.
Q. And regardless of how paid?
A. Yes, sir, the same rule applies to the Negro

;eacher.
Q. So, is it not true that the worst white teacher at

hat time got more than the best Negro teacher?
A. Apparently.

i Q. And under that rule, is it not true that the only basis
for classification used was the basis of race? A. No.

Q. Well, was there any other basis?
A. Yes, the basis of their flat pay.

[fol. 60] Q. I mean, in order to qualify for the, there are
two amounts involved, $75.00 and $50.00, and in order to
qualify for the $75.00, is it not true that the only thing
you had to do was to be white? A. No.

Q. Well, the Avhite teachers got $75.00?
A. Yes, sir, just in a different bracket of pay.
Q. Different bracket?
A. Different set-up. It was on a basis of salary they

were then drawing.
Q. Well, weren’t they all getting more than the Negro

teachers? A. Yes.
Q. So that prior to that time there was a difference

between them, between the white and colored teachers,
in the salary they were receiving, and after that time the
difference was even wider?

A. I have not figured out whether it was wider or not.
There was a difference.

Q. And did not that same flat increase take place again
while you were on the School Board after 1927, one of
those flat increases? Wait a minute, I think I can show
you.

A. I cannot testify to that unless I have the minutes,
because it has been a number of years ago.

Q. Mrs. McDermott, can you as a member of the
[fol. 61] Personnel Committee, give any reason why
Susie Morris, plaintiff in this case, and twenty-five other
Negro teachers in the Dunbar High School, and twenty-
four other teachers in the Dunbar High School get less
salary than any white teacher in the school system, in
cluding the high school, junior high, and elementary
schools. Can you give any reason for that?

A. The difference in their qualifications.
Q. Well, do you know that there are several white

teachers in the high school that hold no college degree?
A. No, I didn’t know that.
Q. Well, do you know that there are several teachers

in the white elementary schools without college degree?
A. No, I didn’t know that.
Q. Did you know that there are several teachers in

both the high school, elementary, with less teaching ex
perience than seven years, for instance new teachers ap
pointed last year?

A. I imagine that is true, of less than seven years’
experience.

Q. Can you account for the fact that Susie Morris, the
plaintiff in this case, with a degree from an accredited
college outside of the State of Arkansas and with some
graduate work and seven years’ experience gets less than
the white teachers with no college education and with
[fol. 62] seven years’ experience?

A. The white teacher has seven years ’ experience ?
Q. The same as Susie Morris and with a college degree,

and with no college education, they one year but no de
gree.

A. It takes something more than a college degree to
make a teacher.

Q. Do you know of the teaching ability of Susie
Morris? A. No.

Q. Do you know the teaching ability of these white
teachers? A. Some I do and some I do not.

Q. So then in the fixing of salaries for the teachers
last year, you did not fix that on the basis of their teach
ing ability, did you?

A. Upon the recommendation of the Superintendent
whose duty it is and who has close contact and knowledge
of the teaching ability.

Q. Do you know whether Mr. Scobee, the Superintend
ent, had visited any teachers before last year?

A. Probably not before last year, because he just came
here.

Q. So far as the salaries set for 1941-1942, they were
not set, were they, on the basis of the ability of the teachers
to teach?

A. The other Superintendent knew the teachers very,
very well.

Q. You remember back in May of this year you set the
[fol. 63] salaries for the year 1942-43; did you set that
on the basis of ability of the individual teacher?

A. That is all we have to go by.
Q. What did you have to go by?
A. The recommendation of the Superintendent.
Q. The recommendation of the Superintendent?
A. Yes.
Q. I understand in your long connection with the

School Board you have talked with several teachers and
you are quite familiar with them.

A. I know them very well.
Q. And their ability. Do you know whether, though,

there are, in your estimation, some Negro teachers in
Dunbar High School better qualified than some white
teachers ?

A. I wouldn’t know. I have not had them along side
each other, and I am not a teacher.

Q. Has it or has it not been the policy of the Personnel
Committee in making these recommendations to the
School Board for the appointment of new teachers to
recommend, also, the salaries paid Negro teachers a lower
salary than paid the white teachers new to the system?

A. That is true.
Q. That is true up to this year? A. Yes.
Q. And it has been true since you have been on the

committee?
[fol. 64] A. Yes. V

Q. Can you give me any reason for that?
A. The reason I have given you before, there is a

difference in their qualifications.
Q. Taking, for example, the mathematics teacher in

Dunbar High School with an M. A. Degree from the Uni
versity of Michigan and several hours on his Ph. D.
Wouldn’t you consider him better qualified than a white
teacher with a B. S. Degree, or less?

A. It would depend entirely upon the ability to give to
their students the knowledge they have, and other elements,
the leadership, culture, and the things that go into the
elements making a teacher.

Q. This teacher is brand new, and you don’t know
anything about the ability of the teacher, of either one of
them. Wouldn’t you think the Negro would be entitled to
more on the basis of his record in school, in an accredited
school? A. Perhaps he might be.

Q. Well, then, what is the reason that (stops) — You
were on the Personnel Committee, I believe, in 1935?

A. Well, I don’t remember. I expect I was there.
Q. Well, take a Negro teacher with five years’ ex

perience in teaching outside of Little Rock with a degree
from Talladega College, in Alabama, which, incidentally,
[fol. 65] is an accredited school, and can you give any
reason why he is paid any less salary than a white teacher
with an A. B. Degree from a similarly accredited school.
Can you give any reason?

A. Did they have the same experience in teaching?
Q. The same experience.
A. The same experience in teaching?
Q. Or less. Can you give any reason for it? A. No.
Q. Well, in fixing the salaries for last year, Susie

Morris, with an A. B. Degree, six years’ experience in
Little Rock and five outside of Little Rock, was given a
salary of $70.00, and there was, for example, a teacher
in the junior high school, a white junior high school, Miss
Lillian Lane, with an A. B. Degree and no experience at
all, any place, is given $900.00.

A. Well, we took the recommendation of the Superin
tendent who has considered the qualifications, not only of
the degrees but other things, their experience and every
thing else they have to offer, and their recommendations
that showed their past experience.

Q. But, Mrs. McDermott, the young lady we are ask
ing, are using for comparison, has no experience, yet she
is given $900.00, and Susie Morris, with eleven years’ ex
perience, is given $70.00.
[fol. 66] A. Without knowing on what the Superintend
ent’s recommendation is based, I could not answer.

Q. Well, going further, Miss Marie B. Jefferson, with
out a degree, four years’ college, a half year’s experience
in Little Rock and eight years in Missouri was given
$945.00.

A. I happen to know that teacher personally, and she
had unusual ability and leadership, and she was teaching
music and other subject matter that made her a very valu
able person.

Q. You base that on one-half year’s experience?
A. She had had other experience.
Q. How about Miss Rhoda Wharry? And she has an

A. B. Degree with no experience in Little Ro'ck, two years
other places, and she is given $900.00. Can you give any
reason for that? A. I don’t know.

Q. What about a teacher with a Master of Science,
Mrs. H. B. Campbell, with fourteen years’ experience in
Little Rock only gets $859.00, which is less than Miss Lil
lian Lane up here with no experience and only an A. B.
Degree?

A. As I say, I do not know what rule the Superin
tendent uses to arrive at his recommendation.

Q. Have you ever questioned him about the fact that
the Negro teachers get less than the white teachers?

A. No.
[fol. 67] Q. Do you remember the supplemental payments
from the fund received from the state in the last year
and this year paid to all teachers? A. I do.

Q. And is it not true that a system of evaluating the
teacher according to experience and salary and the degree
was arrived at so that each teacher got so many units
according to the way they fit in the schedule. Isn’t that
true? A. That is right.

Q. And is it not a fact that that basis was the same
as to the white and colored teachers as to the unit?

A. As to the units, yes.
Q. And is it not also true that white teachers received

twice as much as the colored teachers?

A. I could not testify to that.
Q. But is it not true that the colored teachers re

ceived less than the white teachers? A. Yes.
Q. And is it not because of the policy of the Board

that they receive less than the white teachers? A. No.
Q. Can you give any other reason?
A. Because the Board believed that there are less

qualifications than the other, as a whole.
[fol. 68] Q. You came to the conclusion that the colored
teachers, as a whole, have less qualifications?

A. As a whole group.
Q. And for that reason, the Negro teachers drew one-

half here? A. Yes.
Q. For instance, this man H.A. Scott with an M. A. from

the University of Michigan, and now is the University of
Michigan as high as any white school in Arkansas?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. And isn’t it arrived at because the Board is of the

opinion that the Negro teachers have the less qualifica
tion than the white teachers?

A. I think he has to prove it.
Q. Then the white teachers have to prove themselves to

get the minimum?
A. No, no more than he has to prove himself to get

whatever he got.
Q. So the white teacher doesn’t have to prove any

thing, prove whether he has or has not teaching ability
to get that minimum of $810.00.

A. For the first year.
Q. And regardless of how qualified the teacher is or

from what school he came?
A. No, I do not think that is true.
Q. Can you give an instance where a new Negro teach-

[fol. 69] er to the system has gotten the minimum for
white teachers? A. I don’t know.

Q. You do not remember any?
A. No, I do not remember.
Q. Since you have been on the Personnel Committee—

strike that, please—Was there not a salary schedule
around 1928 for the payment of Negroes’ salaries? Do
you remember? A. Yes, there was one considered.

Q. Considered, as you remember it?
A. As I remember it.

Q. And going back to around just after the depression,
as I remember there were several cuts during the depres
sion of the teachers’ salary. A. That is right.

Q. And then after that there has been some replenish
ing of those cuts? A. Yes.

Q. In these blanket increases we have mentioned be
fore? A. Yes.

Q. And isn’t it true that the teachers have gone on a
more or less regular salary, I mean, for example, a teacher
coming in at $810.00, has gone along with an increase the
Board gave them? A. Not many increases.
[fol. 70] Q. So, as a matter of fact, there have been very
few increases as to Negro teachers, too.

A. That is right.
Q. So the Negro teacher that came in at the least sal

ary are still trailing below the white teachers. Is that
true? A. It probably is.

Q. So, regardless of how well a teacher he could be,
and regardless of how many degrees he might go away
and get, they would still be trailing behind the white
teacher they came in with. Would that be true?

A. Not in every case, I don’t think.
Q. Can you give any exceptions? A. No.
Q. Is it not true that when Susie Morris came into the

system and the others I mentioned came in for $810.00
minimum, isn’t it true that they would go along like that
and Susie Morris would always be below the white teacher?

A. I do not know what might happen in that.
Q. It has never occurred to you to question the Super

intendent about the fact that when these recommendations
are made to you the Negroes are always the least?

A. I believe they always have the least salary, yes.
Q. And have you ever questioned the Superintendent

[fol. 71] as to why that happens?
A. On an occasion or two, and always put on the basis

of their preparation and ability to deliver.
Q. That is, the Negro teachers are not just as well

prepared? A. The majority of them are not.
Q. And that is based on the school they come from,

is that not true? A. Not altogether.
Q. Have you ever heard any comparison being made in

the white teachers and Negro teachers, both from the
same school? A. No.

Q. And in your consideration of the teachers accord
ing to the school they are from, would you classify the
University of Southern California along with the schools
here in Arkansas? A. Yes, that is an excellent school.

Q. Is the same true of the University of Kansas?
A. Yes.
Q. And the same true of the University of Michigan?
A. That is a good school.
Q. And the same is true of Yale University and Colum

bia? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do they all rate along with these schools here?
A. They are superior to our schools in some instances,

[fol. 72] Q. Is it not also true that several of the Negro
schools of the south and east are rated similar to these
schools in Arkansas which are accredited by the Southern
Association for Colleges and Secondary Schools?

A. I do not know about that.
Q. And it is likewise true that several of the Negro

teachers now teaching in the system have taken work and
have received degrees in these schools I have mentioned?
Is that not true? So that as to their schooling, everything
else being equal, they would be equivalant to the white
teachers who came from the Arkansas schools. Is that
not true?

A. I will repeat what I said, but you can get this again,
just educational training don’t make a teacher, it takes
a lot of background and a lot of culture and a lot of other
things.

Q. Prior to 1941—strike that—prior to the filing of
this case, have you ever received a detail report which
purports to give the rating of the teachers as to what kind
of teaching they are doing?

A. No, I have not received that.
Q. And you mean by that the Personnel Committee

has not received it?
A. No, not as a compared record, I don’t believe so,

I can be mistaken in that but I don’t think so.
[fol. 73] Q. Do you know of any time when you sat down
and took a list of the teachers, white and colored, in the
Little Rock School System, and fixed the salary accord
ing to their teaching ability?

A. No, the Superintendent does that.
Q. And the whole list of teachers—

A. The Superintendent has a list of all the teachers
made by the principal.

Q. And he rates the teacher solely on that?
A. I am not a teacher and I am not educated for it

and I could not rate the teachers.
Q. What I am trying to get, are the salaries based on

that?
A. On their ability, I would say, not only on their edu

cation but on the general ability as a teacher.
Q. Then, if that be true, then Susie Morris and these

twenty-four other Negro teachers who get less than the
minimum salary of any white teacher in the system any
where would be inferior to all of them.

A. With that line of reasoning, yes.
Q. How do you explain the fact that the study hall

teacher who does no teaching at all gets more salary than
Susie Morris or any other of these twenty-four teachers?

A. She would have to have many qualifications.
Q. But you can’t compare her to a teacher?
A. She would have to have more qualifications.

[fol. 74] Q. Isn’t it a matter of fact that she has no
certificate and no degree at all? A. I don’t know.

Q. If that were true, would that change your answer
as to the reason she gets more than Susie Morris or the
twenty-four other Negro teachers in Dunbar High School?

A. I don’t know what is, just what her duties have to
be, therefore I can’t make out that answer.

Q. As a matter of fa'ct, what you do is you follow the
recommendations of the Superintendent?

A. That is what we employ him for, to run the teaching
in the schools.

Q. And the Personnel Committee has never sat down
and gone over the ratings of every teacher in the system?

A. Not at any one time.
Q. At any one time? A. No.
Mr. Marshall: Your witness.

Cross-Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Mrs. McDermott, what is your present occupation?
A. I am Executive Secretary of the Family Service

Agency.
Q. How long have you held this position?

A. This particular position since July the 16th.
[fol. 75] Q. What job of work do you do in connection
with it?

Mr. Loughborough: Excuse me. Can you speak a little
louder?

A. Oh, yes, I can. Answering, that goes into all family
difficulties, marital difficulties, parent and child difficulties,
anything that deals with the family.

Q. Is it fair to say it is .a social work?
A. Some of the very highest order of social service

work.
Q. How long have you been in the social service work?
A. More than twenty years.
Q. Can you tell us when you began?
A. January the 1st, 1921.
Q. And have you been in this type of work since then?
A. With exception of three months I worked with the

U. S. 0.
Q. What was your first work along this line?
A. Head of the Juvenile Court of Pulaski County.
Q. And over what period of time did that extend?
A. From 1921 to 1941, January, 1941.
Q. In your work in Juvenile Court, did you handle all

types of delinquencies?
A. Dependencies and delinquencies and cases of neg

lect of family and moral difficulty.
Q. Is this true for the white and for the colored both?
A. Yes, I had on my staff two colored people.
Q. Was this a full-time employment?

[fol. 76] A. Quite full time.
Q. In connection with your work, did you simply handle

office routine?
A. Oh, no. We did a great deal of case work which

goes into the homes of the clients.
Q. And did you go personally?
A. Many, many times.
Q. Did the other staff workers go into the homes?
A. Yes. The first thing you did after you received a

complaint is to make a home visit, and that was done in
every case that represented any serious difficulty.

Q. Is this true for colored as well as for the white?
A. The same as for the white.

Q. State whether or not it is the practice in your court
to have staff discussions relative to the cases.

A. Always, with the worker who was making the offi
cial interview and who was handling the case, always dis
cussed the case with the supervisor and often times with
the referee.

Q. In connection with this work, was it a part of your
task to study home environment and background?

A. Yes, sir, always written up in the record what the
home situation is.

Q. And you have been doing this, and you did this from
1921 to 1941?
[fol. 77] A. Correct.

Q. And when you left Juvenile Court work, what did
you do?

A. I went over and organized the Civil Military Auxil
iary which later became the U. S. 0.

Q. Did you work exclusively with the white soldiers?
A. Yes, most of the time I did work with white soldiers,

though I did give some service to the colored soldiers.
Q. In connection with the latter work, did you come in

contact with any Negro soldiers? A. Yes, some.
Q. Did that necessitate a study of the background of

those soldiers?
A. Not necessarily, because the service was slight, giv

ing directions to some place, just general service with the
U. S. 0., that the U. S. 0. renders.

Q. And you held this latter position until you took
over your present work? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And when did you enter it?
A. July the 16th, a new agency created in this city.
Q. Do you at the present time go into the homes of the

families? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is this true of both races?
A. Yes, we have had occasion to make 67 visits to

[fol. 78] Negro homes since I have been in the office, to see
whether or not they were to be given milk, their children
to be given milk.

Q. Do you consider you have a background for an ap
praisal of people? A. Yes, I think so.

Q. When were you elected to the School Board?
A. I came into the Little Rock School Board in June,

1922.

Q. That was shortly after you were handling that Ju
venile Court work?

A. Yes, sir, a little over a year.
Q. Have you been continuously on the School Board

since that time? A. I have.
Q. In what capacities have you served as a member of

the School Board?
A. I have served as its President and its Secretary.
Q. Have you also served on the Personnel Committee?
A. I have served on the Personnel Committee a great

many times.
Q. Would you say more than any other capacity?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you able to assign a reason for that?
A. No, except they thought perhaps I could render

more capable service on that than anyone else.
[fol. 79] Q. In performing your duties in connection
with the Personnel Committee, have you found your ex
perience in these other occupations of value?

A. Yes, sir, it gives you a value of the people and their
possibilities.

Q. Does it give you an insight in appraising them?
A. Yes, sir, I think so.
Q. Does it help you to determine whether a particular

individual might be a good teacher? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In what way is that true, Mrs. McDermott?
A. Well, just to determine, in a Avay, what they have

to give out to the groups that they teach. You can tell if
you have much contact with them something of their inner
resources and their personality and their characteristics
and whether they are capable really of interesting and
holding the interest of the children they teach.

Q. Does it enable you to evaluate character?
A. Well, I think it does, yes.
Q. Do you consider character an important element in

a teacher?
A. I think it is the ordinary foundation of every

teacher.
Q. Are you able to make such an appraisal only on a

paper report?
A. No, you are not, not altogether, no, indeed. You

[fol. 80] have to have, or somebody has to have, had per

sonal contact, just a report that you read doesn’t convey
anything much on the personality of the individual.

Q. When you served on the Personnel Committee un
der Mr. Hall’s superintendency, were you able to make
an appraisal of the applicants based on such reports as
he laid before the Committee?

A. He had had personal contact with these people, not
once but many times, and sometimes we had personal con
tacts with them, and because of that we had confidence in
our Superintendent and in his judgment.

Q. And you would accept his fact finding?
A. What?
Q. On the basis of that finding, would the Committee

be able to determine the ability of the applicant, or would
you discuss it?

A. If you had had personal contact and you would have
discovered other qualities, you would then discuss them.

Q. Would you discuss these matters with the Superin
tendent? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would you make some effort to determine the na
ture of the applicant’s character?

A. That was fundamental to the report.
Q. Did the Committee make some effort to determine

the teaching abilities of the applicant? What has been
[fol. 81] the custom as to that?

A. We would discuss that with the Superintendent.
Q. Have you ever had the duty, yourself, personally, to

employ teachers in the school system? A. No.
Q. You say you have been a member of the Personnel

Committee many times? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And your deliberations, in your personal delibera

tion, what effect, if any, have you given to the question of
color?

A. Not any. We have not considered it.
Q. In the deliberations of the Committee, as such, have

the individual members expressed opinions of applicants
based on color?

A. I have never heard one.
Q. State whether or not there has been any pre-dispo

sitions on the part of the Committees on which you have
served deliberately to give colored teachers less salaries.

A. No.

Q . Do you recall any time when the Committee refused
to employ an applicant or to recommend an applicant at
a salary less than one assigned by the Superintendent be
cause of color? A. No.
[fol. 82] Q. What would be your personal inclination if
the question of discrimination of race and color were
brought up?

A. The color question would have no effect, have no
consideration at my hand, it is the quality of work and
service they can give.

Q. Have you made a critical analysis of the salaries
now paid to all teachers in our school system?

A. I know fairly well the schedule, not for every teach
er but fairly well.

Q. When you say schedule, what do you mean?
A. I mean the salaries paid, the payroll.
Q. Are these paid according to a schedule? A. No.
Q. If you made a critical analysis of the salaries paid

to our teachers, and if you became convinced, personally,
that they were discriminated against by race or color, what
would be vour disposition?

A. To try to make an adjustment.
Q. Are you able to speak for the Personnel Committee

as a whole on it? A. I believe I am.
Q. Do you recall any time in which the Personnel Com

mittee sent a report to the School Board with a recom
mendation to the School Board, as a whole, employ colored
teachers deliberately at a less salary because that teacher
[fol. 83] was colored? A. No.

Q. Has the question of the employing of applicants
and assigning salaries on the basis of color ever been dis
cussed in the Personnel Committee meetings? A. No.

Q. Has it ever been discussed in a S'chool Board meet
ing? A. No.

Q. How serious do you regard your duty as a mem
ber of the Personnel Committee?

A. Well, I take it rather seriously, and I take my serv
ices on the School Board rather seriously. I think I
have been absent very few times during these years, and
that in cases of illness.

Q. Is it any part of your function as a member of the
Personnel Committee to visit class rooms?

A. Not at all, I can’t visit, no, the reason, you see I
couldn’t, and we are not supposed to do that.

Q. Is it any part of the Personnel Committee’s duty
to evaluate salaries on teachers after they have been em
ployed?

A. We take the recommendation of the Superintendent
on that because that is his duty, and accept it.

Q. Does the Personnel Committee, as such, consider
contracts for each year? Is it any part of the function of
that Committee to do it?
[fol. 84] A. We only send in the recommendation that
certain teachers be employed, but we don’t have anything
to do Avith the making of contracts.

Q. Who does ?
A. The clerk of the Board under the direction of the

Superintendent.
Q. Who considers what amount shall be paid the teach

er for the following year? Is it the Personnel Committee?
A. No, the Finance Committee.
Q. In arriving at the salaries paid to the teachers in

our public school system for the year 1942-43, Avas it the
function of the Personnel Committee to recommend teer-
tain salaries?

A. We have recommended certain teachers to the
Board, but the whole thing has to he approved by the
Finance Committee.

Q. Does that mean a general report is made from the
Personnel Committee to the Finance Committee and the
Board?

A. There is a report made if we have anybody to elect.
Q. Would you say the work of the Personnel Com

mittee is confined to the neAv teachers?
A. To the new teachers, yes, sir.
Q. You mentioned that in 1928 or 1929 a salary sched

ule was considered by the School Board.
A. That is true.
Q. Are you prepared on the basis of your recollection

[fol. 85] at the moment to say whether or not the salary
schedule aauis actually adopted?

A. It Avas presented to the School Board, but I cannot
remember that it was ever really adopted.

Q. You mean to say you have no specific recollection?
A. No.

Q. On that point? A. No.
Q. Would the minutes show whether or not the sug

gested schedule had been adopted?
A. It would. The minutes would show that if we had

formally adopted it.
Q. Have you ever seen the specific, fixed salary schedule

used by the Board?
A. No, sir, this was, it was either 1928 or ’29 that a

schedule was presented. It seems to me we tried to
work out on that, tried to fit our financial means into it
and had to abandon it because the depression was so bad
we could not work on any regular schedule.

Q. Is there any fixed salary schedule now in operation
by the Board? A. There is not.

Q. Has any such fixed salary schedule been in opera
tion for a period of the last ten or twelve years, so far as
you know?
[fol. 86] A. It has not, so far as I know.

Q. Do you know whether or not the School Board
undertakes to direct the Superintendent as to what sal
aries he may offer applicants?

A. That is largely left to his judgment.
Q. And do you know of any instarice in which the

School Board has specifically limited the Superintendent
or limited the salaries? A. I do not.

Q. It has been suggested that all white teachers—
strike that—it has been suggested that no white teacher
for some time past has been employed at less than $810.00
annual salary. Do you know whether the School Board
has instructed the Superintendent that he must adopt
that as the minimum? A. It has not, to my knowledge.

Q. It has also been suggested that certain colored
teachers have been employed at figures of $615.00 to
$630.00 annual salary. Do you know whether or not the
School Board has instructed the Superintendent to use
this as minimum salaries?

A. It has not, to my knowledge.
Q. Has the School Board ever commented on the fact

that colored teachers were employed at these minimum
salaries? A. No, sir, I heard no Comment on it.

4—12,887

[fol. 87] Q. Has it ever been commented on as to the
$810.00 paid to white teachers?

A. The only comment I have heard was the regret we
can’t pay all teachers more money.

Q. Mention was made that on May the 21st, 1927, or
on or about that time, blanket increases were given to
teachers of $75.00 to white teachers and $50.00 to colored
teachers. Do you know whether that was on the basis
of a fixed salary schedule ? A. I think it was not.

Q. Do you recall the salary cuts, salaries were cut
after 1929? A. Very vividly.

Q. Are you able to say from memory how those cuts
were arrived at?

A. I think the percentage basis, on the percentage
basis.

Q. You could refresh your memory by examination of
the records, couldn’t you? A. Yes.

Q. Are you able to say whether the salaries of teachers
have ever been made equal to what they were in 1929?

A. They have not.
Q. Then is it accurate to refer to increases in teachers’

salaries, or would the more accurate expression be res
toration of salary Cut?
[fol. 88] A. Restoration of salaries, or bonuses.

Q. For the purpose of comparison, you were asked here
—Susie Morris and some twenty-four other teachers in
Dunbar receive less than certain white teachers—and you
were asked to compare them with teachers, with white
teachers who had been employed and who did not have
college degrees. Are you able to say from memory
whether any white teachers have been employed within the
last seven years who did not have college degrees?

A. I am not.
Q. Would that be a matter of record?
A. A matter of record.
Q. You were asked to compare the teacher of mathe

matics in Dunbar, which teacher has an M. A. Degree
from Michigan, I believe, with a teacher of mathematics
in the Little Rock School, High School, which teacher, I
believe, had a B. A. Degree, or its equivalent. On that
basis alone can you tell anything about the respective
teaching ability of the teachers? A. No.

Q. What does the holding of a degree indicate to you?

A. That they had a certain training in the school, but
in my own field sometimes that does not qualify a person
trying to do a real good job, and I presume it holds in
other fields.
[fol. 89] Q. In evaluating the qualifications of candidates
for teaching positions, as a member of the Personnel Com
mittee, yourself, do you necessarily give one degree, as a
degree, more weight than another? A. No.

Q. How do you consider that?
A. Well, I think a Master’s Degree, of course, gives

you a greater knowledge than an A. B., and, of course,
that’s the first thing you consider; and the second thing
you consider would be one’s personality, really their prin
ciple, because you need that, their character, their re
sourcefulness to bring out interest, and a great many
things go into the consideration of a teacher or social
worker, with which I am much more familiar, than just a
degree.

Q. To what extent is it possible to compare two peo
ple whom you do not otherwise know merely on the basis
of such degrees?

A. You can’t make a real good comparison.
Q. You were asked to compare the plaintiff, Susie

Morris, with several other, or several white teachers,
among whom was Lillian Lane. What would you have
to know in order to make such a comparison?

A. Have to know the background of both women, their
scholastic attainments, their standing in the community,
[fol. 90] their former environment, and a great many
things about them in order to make a comparison.

Q. WTould you have to know their ability to use scho
lastic materials in teaching? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you examined the rating sheet that has been
mentioned before, the sheet prepared by Mr. Scobee?

A. I do not believe I have.
Q. That is the rating sheet produced in evidence con

taining the point “ maintenance of class standards” .
Would that be something you have to consider?

Mr. Marshall: Just one moment, if Your Honor please.
Mrs. McDermott says she knows nothing about this sheet.
That is not in evidence, and I think that is thoroughly
objectionable to ask a question on a sheet that is not in

evidence and which she, herself, says she knows nothing
about.

Mr. Nash: I am not asking the question as the basis
for the introduction of the sheet or to show her knowledge
of the rating, but merely to show if in her judgment in
employing applicants or evaluating them she would con
sider these several points.

Mr. Marshall: The only thing I object to is the refer-
[fol. 91] ring to the sheet in the question. That is my
objection.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. I will ask you if “ skill in questioning” would be
a very important element to consider and do you consider
it.

A. I consider that very valuable in teaching.
Q. Are you able to say from your individual acquaint

anceship the respective merits of the plaintiff, Susie Mor-
his, as compared with these other tea'chers?

A. I cannot.
Q. You do not purport to be qualified to do that?
A. I do not know either one of them.
Q. Mention has been made of the distribution of cer

tain income derived from the state sources, distribution
based on three dollars per unit to white teachers and half
that amount to colored teachers. Did you assist in the
preparation of the plan for distribution? A. No.

Q. Do you know whether, of your own personal knowl
edge, or to Avhat extent these amounts compare with per
centage of the salary?

A. No, I do not know exactly.
Q. It has been suggested that colored teachers Avould

lag behind in the matter of salary, annual salaries. Are
you able to give an opinion on that without a detailed
examination of the minutes?
[fol. 92] A. No, not really.

Q. Did I understand you to say that salaries for the
ensuing years are based on the recommendations of the
Superintendent ?

A. Yes, sir, and instruction of our Finance Committee.
Q. Do you know whether or not the question of color is

discussed by the Board in connection with his recommenda
tions ?

A. I never heard it discussed.
Q. What do you understand to be the basis of these

recommendations ?
A. Their qualifications, their teaching ability to teach.
Mr. Nash: That is all.

Redirect Examination.
The Court: Have you a very extensive examination ?
Mr. Marshall: About ten or fifteen minutes.
The Court: Do you want to get through?
The Witness: That’s all right, Your Honor, I can come

back.
The Court: All right. Recess Court until two o ’clock.
Here the Court recessed until 2 :00 P. M., at which time

[fol. 93] the Court reconvened pursuant to order for
recess and proceeded as follows:

Mr. Nash: If Your Honor please, I would like to ask
permission to ask Mrs. McDermott one or two questions
more.

The Court: All right.
Cross-Examination. Continued.

Mrs. McDermott still on the stand.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Mrs. McDermott, I believe you were asked the
question as to the list of teachers in the minutes of the
School Board meetings as colored teachers, with no desig
nation for whites, and the colored teachers designated as
such on the list. For the purpose of refreshing your recol
lection, I draw your attention to the minutes of the School
Board meeting for July 29th, 1929, (hands to witness)
and ask if you find a list of teachers recommended by the
Personnel Committee.

A. Yes, sir, there is a list here.
Q. How are they listed?
A. The Negro teachers are listed first.
Q. Are there white teachers listed also?
A. Yes, sir, in the same group.

[fol. 94] Q. How are they listed? A. Last.

Q. Are the colored teachers so designated as such in
the minutes? A. Yes.

Q. Do you know of any general policy of putting the
list of colored teachers last? A. No.

Q. Again, I direct your attention to the minutes of the
School Board for July the 27th, 1935 — no, strike that,
please. Again, I direct your attention and the testimony
to the minutes of the meeting of August the 28th, 1937,
for the purpose of refreshing your recollection and ask
you if you recall the recommendation as to the teachers
then. Do you find a notation of it in the minutes?

A. Here, yes, four teachers.
Q. How are they listed?
A. Just by name arid the, they alternate, first there is

a white teacher, second colored teacher, and there is no —
then the other two white teachers.

Mr. Nash: I believe that is all.

Redirect Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Mrs. McDermott, mention was made of the fact that
[fol. 95] in your position as head of the Juvenile Court
you visited several homes of Negroes, that was in con
nection with your Juvenile Court work? A. Yes, sir.

Q. So that the homes that you visited pursuant to that
were the homes of families that had delinquent children
or child subject to the jurisdiction of the Juvenile Court?

A. Yes.
Q. And at the present time in the visiting of homes,

whether or not they are entitled to receive milk, are
Negroes in the sub-strata level of economic income?

A. Yes, but delinquency is found in all homes, homes
of the poor class and people more financially stable. De
linquencies are found in all homes.

Q. Do you consider yourself qualified to evaluate the
social background of Negro teachers in Little Rock?

A. Well, if I knew their background I think I would
have some idea.

Q. Isn’t it a fact that you know more about the back
ground of white teachers than you do of the background
of Negro teachers, as a whole?

A. I am not sure. I know some of the Negro teachers,
and I know some of the white teachers, I know some of
them intimately on both sides.

Q. Well, do you know of some Negro teacher that has
[fol. 96] a good background?

A. Yes.
Q. That would compare with some white teacher that

you know? A. Yes.
Q. And this question, your testimony as to the taking

into consideration the general character of the teachers.
Just what concrete factors do you use in estimating the
character of a teacher. For example, do you consider
whether or not the teacher is a member of a church and
regularly attends the church and things like that?

A. That is just an indication. It is a desirable char
acteristic, but she could be of good character and not
attend church.

Q. Just what would you take into consideration?
A. I think their standard of living. I don’t mean by

that economic standard, either, but their standard of liv
ing, their attitude toward a great many things, there you
are asking me to evaluate character — their truthfulness,
their loyalty, their dependability, all of these things go
into it.

Q. Isn’t that more or less the intangible things?
A. The intangible things.
Q. Things it is hard to put your fingers on?
A. Yes, but very easily recognized as a whole.
Q. Would you say that a Negro teacher who has been

[fol. 97] a member of a church ever since she was a child,
sings in the choir, is a regular member, is a member of
the Y.W.C.A. and works in the Y.W.C.A. on several com
mittees, is recognized in her — as being a member of a
Negro sorority of national standing, who works in the
community, in the Community Chest and things like that,
the U.S.O., would you consider her a good character?

A. Those are all indications of good character, in
terest in her environment.

Q. Now, Mrs. McDermott, if I understand you correct
ly, when the question of teachers’ salary is recommended
to your Committee you do not usually check behind the
recommendation of the Superintendent?

A. Not in all cases.

Q. When the teacher is once appointed, do you, when
it comes to the question of fixing the salary for the next
year, is it not true that the Committee doesn’t go into the
qualification of the individual teacher, hut you leave it
up to the Superintendent?

A. Not if their work has been satisfactory, it is left
up to the Superintendent.

Q. I believe you say that the question of race or color
has never been discussed. A. No, it has not.

Q. Isn’t it a fact that if the Superintendent were de
liberately fixing the salaries of Negro teachers less than
[fol. 98] white teachers and referred them to you and
didn’t tell you so that you would adopt his recommenda
tion?

A. I wish you would ask me that question again.
Q. Let me ask you this way: is it possible for your

Superintendent to handle the system and pay a Negro a
lower salary simply because of race or color ?

A. I think it is possible, but I don’t think it has been.
Q. But it would be possible under the way the set-up

exists at the present time?
A. I don’t know, it has never been tried.
Q. You don’t know, as a matter of fact, whether the

Superintendent does use race and color.
A. I think he does not.
Q. But of your own knowledge, you do not know.
A. My own knowledge, I do not. He has never shown

it in his relation to the Board.
Q. But you do not know what is going on in his mind

when he is fixing these salaries up prior to the time he
makes the report to the Personnel Committee?

A. No, but I am very sure of it.
Q. Now, what makes you so sure of that?
A. Because I think he is a just man and very fair.

Mr. Loughborough: Mrs. McDermott, may I get you to
speak a little louder?

A. Yes, sir, excuse me.
[fol. 99] By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Now, as to the question of this salary schedule of
1928 which you seem to remember there was a schedule.

A. There was one presented.

Q. But it was never adopted? A. No, not adopted.
Q. You were on the Board, Mrs. McDermott, in 1929?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And reading from the minutes of the School Board

of Little Rock May the 21st, 1929, at a meeting at which,
among the members of the Board of Directors present was
Mrs. McDermott, we find the following: “ The question of
teachers’ salaries for the year 1929-30 was discussed,
whereupon a motion was made by Mr. Terry, seconded by
Mr. Brandon, that an advance of $100.00 per year be granted
all white teachers and $50.00 per year for all colored
teachers, subject to the conditions of teachers’ salary
schedule. Carried by the following affirmative votes:
Henderson, McDermott, Terry and Brandon. Absent, not
voting: J. P. Runyan and L. C. Holman.” And I ask you,
Mrs. McDermott, if after the reading, or having the min
utes read — appearing of May the 21st, 1929, read to you,
does that clear up in your mind at all that there was a
teachers’ salary schedule in existence?

A. I told you we considered in 1927 or ’28, I couldn’t
[fol. 100] say which, a schedule, but it was never adopted.

Q. It says here, “ subject to the schedule of teachers’
salaries” .

A. We had one presented but never adopted.
Q. But this was adopted subject to that schedule.
A. It had been offered but not adopted.
Q. Can you explain also under this minutes in reading

why it was that all white teachers were given an increase
of $100.00 and all Negro teachers only half that amount,
or $50.00?

A. Because that was probably, I don’t know, but that
was probably in keeping on sort of a percentage basis as
to what they were being paid. I do not know exactly how
they reached that.

Q. At that time the Negro teachers were getting less
than the white teachers in 1929. Was that correct?

A. Yes, approximately, I presume it was.
Q. So you gave the Negroes, who were getting less, less

than the teachers who were getting more?
A. That would naturally be on the percentage basis.
Q. Well, if you ask me, it seems to me you would pay

the lowest teachers more in order to sort of raise them up
to the higher teachers. Was that considered?

A. I do not know.
Q. Under this ruling of the Board in 1929, it is true

[fol. 101] without regard to qualification, the white teach
ers got a hundred dollars and all Negro teachers got
$50.00, that is true ?

A. From what you read there in the minutes it is true,
and I have no reason to doubt it.

Q. So it happened in the paying out of this money, the
basis used in determining whether you got a hundred dol
lars or fifty dollars was the race of the teacher?

A. No. '
Q. Could a colored teacher get a hundred dollars under

that?
A. I told you that was paid on the basis of what they

were then drawing as a salary.
Q. Whatever the basis you paid on, under that ruling

would it be possible for any Negro teacher to get a
hundred dollars?

A. Not according to that article on that one particular
occasion.

Q. But all of the white teachers would get a hundred
dollars apiece? A. According to that.

Q. So, then, is it not true that the determining factor
as to whether you got a hundred or fify dollars was
race?

A. Not at all, because going back, I said the original
salary which was in accordance with the preparation and
with the ability, and the salary increases were granted on
[fol. 102] that ratio.

Q. And is it your testimony, as of 1929, all of the
Negro teachers were one-half as efficient as all of the
white teachers?

A. I don’t know the efficiency of all the white teachers
or all of the Negro teachers.

Q. How would they arrive at the figure of one-half to
Negro teachers as to white teachers?

A. I just said on the basis of salaries being paid, I
presume.

Q. But you do not consider that being on the basis of
race? A. No, I do not.

Q. Do you remember the petition filed by the Negro
teachers last year for the equalization of their salaries ?

A. I do.

Q. And what action, if any, was taken?
A. No action by the Board except the implication when

the matter went to the Finance Committee, and that was
what little money they had had already been allocated
and they made no answer.

Q. Made no answer?
A. And the Finance Committee brought in the report,

and we just said nothing, because we had no money to
do it.

Q. If you had the money, would you pay the Negro
teachers the same salary as you pay the white teachers?

A. I don’t know, we have never had the money.
[fol. 103] Q. Well, then, Mrs. McDermott, is it true,
then, that the question of lack of money tends to keep the
Negro teacher’s salary down? A. Not altogether.

Q. Well, is that part of it?
A. It might be so construed their lack of ability as

teachers are very unequal is the main thing, I would say.
Q. Well, do you think—strike that—Mrs. McDermott,

there are some very good, well qualified and efficient Negro
teachers in the school system, is that not correct?

A. I think so.
Q. In your mind, do you think there are some Negro

teachers in this system as good as some of the white teach
ers?

The Court: I don’t think this would be competent. It
looks to me like you are going a long way. She has not
testified she knows about their qualifications.

Mr. Marshall: She has testified that Negro teachers are
incompetent as a group, and I am merely trying to find out
if there are some efficient ones in there, in her own mind,
and she has testified as a group they are more inefficient
than white teachers, and I am trying to find out in her
mind how far that grouping goes.

The Court: I think she corrected herself on that, I don’t
[fol. 104] remember how far she went.

Mr. Loughborough: What she has testified all of the
time is that on the individual basis, she has never grouped
them here.

The Court: You were asking her about the group, and
she agreed with you and then corrected it.

Mr. Loughborough: She said “ yes” to group, she was
dealing with individuals. Didn’t you say that?

A. I think so.
Mr. Loughborough: And I think on that it would be

improper.
Mr. Marshall: May we have the record read back two

questions back?

The Court: That’s what I understood you to say, that’s
why I remember it. You can ask her about it.

Mr. Marshall: All right, Sir.
Q. Mrs. McDermott, is it or is it not true, in your mind

—strike that—is it your opinion that all Negro teachers
are inferior to all white teachers in the Little Eock School
System?

A. I do not know all of the Negro teachers and I do
not know all of the white teachers, so I could not answer
that.
[fol. 105] Q. Is it your opinion that a majority of the
Negro teachers are or are not inferior to a majority of the
white teachers?

A. You asked me if I think all of the Negro teachers
are inferior to all of the white teachers?

Q. Is the majority. Is that your answer?
A. I would have to judge them on an individual basis.
Q. Do you remember, Mrs. McDermott, that in testi

fying about this following recess you testified that they
were made on the theory that the colored teachers are in
ferior to the white teachers.

A. I don’t know, you asked me so much this morning I
do not remember.

Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor will indulge me for a
moment here.

The Court: All right.

Mr. Marshall: Now, Mrs. McDermott, going back to the
question of the salary schedule. Is it not true that for the
past several years the white teachers new to the system
have been paid not less than $810.00?

A. I think that is true.

Q. And is it not likewise true that the Negro teachers
new to the system have been paid between $615.00 and
$630.00?

A. Somewhere in that figure, I am not just accurate
on it.
[fol. 106] Q. And yet you say there is no schedule as to
salaries ?

A. No, no schedule, there is no minimum and no max
imum.

Q. How do you account for it that they all fall within
these brackets?

A. I don’t know that all of them fall in exactly those
brackets.

Q. How do you account for it that a majority of them
fall within that bracket?

A. Because I suppose we set that up as what we can
pay with the money we have and according to the qualifi
cations of the individual we employ.

Q. Regardless of qualifications, you have not paid any
Negro more than $630.00, with one exception, in the last
seven years, have you? A. I don’t know that.

Q. They are not hired on an individual basis and their
salaries fixed on an individual basis, are they, the new
teachers? A. I think so, I think so.

Q. Well, the last list of teachers that were appointed,
did you consider all of them in the same catagory in quali
fication and ability and worth to the community?

A. You mean—
Q. The white teachers got $810.00.
A. We took their qualifications into consideration, of

course.
[fol. 107] Q. But there were some that were better than
others? A. Probably were.

Q. How is it they were all given $810.00?
A. I don’t know they were all given $810.00.
Q. None were given any less than that. You remember

that? A. I don’t know.
Q. Well, can you give any reason why the entrance is

$615.00 or $630.00 for Negroes and $810.00 paid for white
teachers ?

A. Excepting that these salaries are set up in consid-
eration of what they have to sell.

6 2

Q. Do you mean the Negro teacher does not have as
much to sell as the white teacher?

A. I think perhaps they do not have the same qualifi
cations, they may have the same academic training.

Q. What other qualification would the white teachers
have that would make them superior to the Negro teach
ers?

A. Well, the majority of them, perhaps, have better
background and more cultural background.

Q. The majority of the white teachers?
A. Yes, I think so.
Q. Have better backgrounds than Negro teachers?
A. Have better possibilities.
Q. And is that taken into consideration for that dif

ference between $615.00 and $810.00?
A. I think all of the qualifications have to be taken into

[fol. 108] consideration.
Q. You do not take the position, do you, Mrs. McDer

mott, that every Negro teacher has less background than
a white teacher?

A. I did not say that, not everyone.
Q. Not everyone, there are exceptions?
A. There might be.
Q. Have you come across any since you have been on

the School Board? A. No.
Q. Have you checked into the background?
A. When?
Q. Of any Negro teacher since you have been on the

School Board?
A. One, not sufficiently well to make a statement.
Q. And have you checked into the background of some

of the white teachers since you have been on there?
A. Well, not with that particular thing in view.
Q. How is it possible for you to estimate the back

ground of the Negro teachers, Mrs. McDermott?
A. By my general knowledge of the past, their environ

ment and their past, and so forth.
Q. Would you think a Negro teacher who was brought

up in a home where the father was a school principal and
the mother was a school teacher would be a very good back-
[fol. 109] ground for a teacher? A. Very good.

Q. Very good? A. Yes.

Q. But you do not go into that, do you, in fixing the
salaries?

A. The Board, the members of the Board do not.
Q. Do the members of the Personnel Committee?
A. No, that is not our job.
Q. The only person who would do that would be the

Superintendent, if it is done at all?
A. And the principals of the schools.
Q. Mrs. McDermott, do you remember the depositions

on Saturday a week ago? A. Yes.
Q. Reading from page 144, if Your Honor please, the

question:

Mr. Nash: Just a moment, this is introducing a part of
the deposition?

Mr. Marshall: Under the new rules we are entitled to
read from the part of the deposition to impeach the wit
ness.

Mr. Loughborough: Then we can read any other part?
Mr. Marshall: Sure, sure, sure.

[fob 110] The Court: Yes, or introduce any other part.
Mr. Marshall: Q. Reading from this deposition on page

144, you were asked the question: “ Can you give any
reason why they made one type of increase to the white
teacher and a lower increase to the Negro teacher as a
group.” And your answer was: “ On the basis that the
white group had a better all-round qualification.” “ Ques
tion: But there were some individual Negroes who had
just as good qualification as some white teachers?” Still
quoting: “ Answer: There may have been. Question: Dur
ing the period you have been on the Board, you have testi
fied that Negro teachers were paid less entrance salaries?
Answer: That is true.” Do you remember that?

A. Yes, and I have not denied it anywhere.
Q. It is your opinion that the white teachers, as a

group, have better qualifications than the Negro teachers,
as a group? A. I think they have.

Q. You think they have? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall: That is all.

[fol. I l l ] Recross Examination
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Mrs. McDermott, I believe you were asked the
question whether the School Board would pay colored
teachers now new to the school system the same amount
as it pays a white teacher new -within our system, and I
believe your answer was the School Board has never had
that much money and you did not know.

A. That is right.
Q. Would the Little Rock School Board pay the colored

teachers the same amount as they pay the white teachers,
considering qualifications, that are now in our present
system, the same amount if in the judgment of the Board
the colored teachers were exactly equivalent in teaching
ability ?

A. In teaching ability and if we had the money, yes I
think they would.

Q. State whether or not you would make an adjustment
in the salaries if you were convinced that the teaching
abilities of the Negro teachers now employed were the same
as the Avhite teachers now employed.

A. Yes.
Q. When you testified last Saturday as read a moment

ago from the deposition, in using the term “ grouping” ,
state whether you meant all colored teachers generally and
[fol. 112] all white teachers generally, or only those that
are actually in the employ of the schools.

A. Those that are actually in the employ of the schools.
Q. Would you undertake to make any generalization

about all colored teachers, as a group?
A. I would not at all.
Q. Is it true, then, that your reference to group is

predicated solely upon the individuals as individuals?
A. The individuals as individuals.
Q. How long do you know, if you know, have white

teachers coming into our system for the first time been
paid $810.00? A. I don’t know.

Q. Are you able to say that it began two years ago or
three years ago?

A. I don’t remember, no, I don’t remember when that
increase began.

Q. Do you recall whether or not any white teachers have
ever been employed for the first time at a figure less than
$810.00?

A. I am sure they have.
Q. Do you recall whether any teachers have been em

ployed for the first time at a figure less than $615.00?
A. I am sure they have.

[fob 113] Q. I direct your attention to the minutes of the
School Board for June the 29th, 1936. Do you find there
a list of teachers recommended for employment—first, I
will ask you this —

Q. Were you present on that occasion?
A. I don’t know. I would have to look and see.

Mr. Loughborough: This shows her presence.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Was there a list of teachers presented for employ
ment? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are some white and some colored?
A. (None).
Q. Was there any designation as to race there?
A. No, no, I think there is one'colored woman in here,

but I can’t say. There is no distinction, no designation
here at all.

Q. What is the salary recommended for the first teacher
named?

A. $786.00 — $678.00.
Q. What is the salary recommended for the next

teacher? A. $756.00.
Q. And the next one? A. $756.00.
Q. And then continue ?

[fol. 114] A. $786.00, $810.00, $810.00, $810.00. Here is
the part-time teacher at $35.00 per month and one at
$855.00, and one at $746.00, one $855.00, and one $756.00.

Q. Do you know whether the School Board pre-deter-
mined that the Superintendent should recommend or
employ teachers at these figures given?

A. They did not.
Q. I direct your attention to the minutes of School

Board for the date September the 26th, 1936, and ask that

5—12,887

6 6

you examine that for the purpose of refreshing your recol
lection. Were you present on that date?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you find there a list of teachers recommended for

employment ?
A. I do. Do you want me to read their names and

salary?
Q. If the record shows, and give the name of the person

and race and recommended salary.
A. Miss Edith Leidy at $1125.00, Edward Garbacz at

$150.00 a month. Andrew Hunter—shall I read that—
colored, at $590.00. Eva Mae Richmond at $590.00.
Mildred Frampton, colored clerk, $590.00. M. Y. Hawkins,
clerk, $40.00 a month.

Q. I direct your attention to the minutes of the School
Board for November the 28th, 1936. Were you present at
that meeting?
[fol. 115] A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you find here the names of teachers recommended
for employment?

A. Martha Jean Stanley $755.00, James Pilkington
$837.00, Blanch D. Crawford $755.00.

Q. With one exception, these figures are less than
$810.00? A. Yes, sir.

Q. I believe you were asked by Mr. Marshall whether
the colored teachers had the same things to sell as the
white teachers. In answering such a question, would you
consider them as a group generally or as specific individ
uals now employed in our schools?

A. Now employed in our schools.
The Court: Now, Mrs. McDermott, you said that you

were one of the Personnel Board there and the Superintend
ent would, would have supervision of looking after the
passing of teachers who applied for positions there, and
you said the qualifications that were considered by you
in order to make them a good teacher, to draw the salaries
that had been fixed there. Did you and the Superintendent
or the Personnel Board and the Superintendent discuss
the ideas as to what the Superintendent should consider in
fixing the salaries of the teachers?

A. Yes, sir, I think that has all been under consider
ation.

[fol. 116] Q. The ideas you have expressed as to
qualifications, were they discussed with the Superintend
ent?

A. Yes, sir, he would state what their qualifications
were.

Q. He would state their qualifications?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you would have an opportunity to consider

whether he had considered all of the qualifications the
Personnel Committee had had in mind? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were they discussed with him from time to time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you testified to the qualifications of these

teachers, you base it on the statement of the Superintend
ent and the ideas of the Personnel Committee.

A. Just a general system, understanding.
The Court: No further questions.
Any further questions?

Mr. Marshall: Yes, sir, about three more.

Redirect Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Mrs. McDermott, carrying a little further the ap
pointment of teachers from where Mr. Nash left off, you
were on the Board in 1938, is that true?
[fol. 117] A. That is true.

Q. Isn’t it true that since 1938 all of the teachers new
to the system, white, have been paid a minimum of $810.00?

A. I do not know.
Q. Directing your attention to the minutes of June

the 24th, 1938, there is a list of teachers and their salaries.
Does this not appear that that entire list is a list of white
teachers ?

A. Yes, it appears to be.
Q. Isn’t it true that in that list the different teachers

there are paid more than $810.00?
A. Some of them are, principals, and that is generally

more than the others, but that is the practical maximum
at the white schools.

Q. But as to Miss Florence Byrd, she was a teacher?
A. She was promoted from clerk.

6 8

Q. From a clerk to a teacher at $810.00?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And these others fixed at $810.00 are all teachers,

are they not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Miss Mildred Thompson is designated as a substi

tute ?
A. She is giving full time as a substitute.
Q. But she is given $810.00? A. Yes, sir.

[fol. 118] Q. So it is true as of that date all of the white
teachers were given $810.00 or more?

A. Yes, sir, according to these minutes, yes.
Q. Going over to the minutes of July the 30th, 1938,

is another list of general teachers appointed, tea'chers and
principals? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Nine teachers and one clerk?
A. No, yes, I believe it was a clerk.
Q. And isn’t it true that all of the Negroes in the

group were paid $615.00? A. From these minutes, yes.
Q. And all of the white teachers not less than $910.00?
A. I think that is about correct.
Q. In the minutes of August 27, 1938, is given another

list of nine teachers and one clerk, and isn’t it true that
as of the white teachers none are paid less than $810.00?

A. That appears to be correct from that, but I am not
reading it very closely.

Q. And the only Negro teacher, Otyce Brown, is
$720.00? A. Yes, "that is corre'ct.

Q. And isn’t it true in the minutes of December 30,
1938, two Negro teachers were appointed, one a regular
teacher and one a substitute teacher, both at $615.00.
That—- A. You are referring to this?
[fol. 119] Q. Yes, Ma’m, Dorothy Gipson.

A. That is correct.
Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, at some time we

want to have several sections of these minutes put in the
evidence rather than prolong this. I think we can dis
pense with all this.

The Court: All right.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. And isn’t it true, Mrs. McDermott, that since May,
1938, or rather June, 1938, it has been the policy to pay
white teachers a minimum of $810.00? A. I think so.

Q. And it has been the policy to pay Negro teachers
less than that minimum? A. Yes, sir.'

Q. And that has been the policy since 1938?
A. I think so.
Q. That is the policy as late as that last Board meet

ing? A. I think so.
Q. As I remember, Mrs. McDermott, in the appointing

of teachers you said that you took the application blank
into consideration and the material submitted along with
it.

A. You mean with the picture and all along with it?
We could see it any time we wanted to.
[fol. 120] Q. And what else did you see in addition to
that? A. Well, the Superintendent’s report on it.

Q. The Superintendent’s report? A. Yes.
Q. Directing your attention to the year 1935, do you

remember the appointment of the plaintiff in this case,
Susie Morris? A. I do not.

Q. You don’t remember whether or not you considered
her application?

A. I do not. There are many to be considered, and
that is seven years ago. I wouldn’t remember that par
ticular, no.

Q. Then when you would consider these applications,
how Carefully did you go into them generally?

A. Generally, we generally took a look at them to see
what their qualifications are, and we have not seen the
person, of course. It is difficult, but we have to depend
upon the report of the Superintendent, on the points we
consider, and you have to work along that basis.

Q. And doesn’t it often happen that in the material
in the application blank you have to hire a white and
colored teacher of the same qualifications?

A. It might happen.
Q. How does it happen that the colored and white

teachers are always given different salaries?
[fol. 121] A. Because we think the white teacher is more
thorough than the other. We do it on an individual basis.

Mr. Marshall: If \ our Honor please, there is no ob
jection from the other side to marking this for the pur
pose of identification, these two exhibits.

Exhibits 2-A and 2-B marked for identification, being
applications of Mrs. Lillian Lane and of Susie E. Cowan
Morris to the Little Rock Public Schools of Little Rock,
Arkansas.

By Mr. Marshall:
Q. I show you for identification marked Exhibit 2-B

and also show you for identification plaintiff’s Exhibit
2-A, the application of Mrs. Lillian Lane, who is now
Susie Elizabeth Cowan, who is the plaintiff in this suit,
teaching in the Junior High School, appointed this year,
and I ask you to look at both of these applications and
in your judgment on the basis of material in thc.-appli-
cation alone, give us your opinion as to their worth as
a teacher.

A. Since I do not know either one of the teachers,
I could not make an honest opinion from just reading
these things, these applications. I do not know either one
of them personally.

Q. But you do not know the individual teachers when
you fix their salaries?
[fol. 122] A. No, no, not all of them.

Q. Well, on the basis of their application alone, would
you say they were at least equal?

A. On their basis of what is contained in these, that
might be true, but there might be other things in it that
would make them not equal.

Q. I show you also plaintiff’s, marked for identifica
tion, Exhibit 2-C, which is the application blank of Miss
Rlioda E. Wharry, and ask you if you can point out any
thing on the application which would appear to justify
her being a superior teacher to the plaintiff, Miss Susie
Cowan Morris.

A. I do not know either one of the teachers.
Q. I didn’t hear you.
A. I say I don’t know either one of these teachers.
Q. Well, you will notice here on Miss Wharry’s appli

cation blank on the third page under question, “ Lowest
salary a year you would accept” that she put in the figure
$800.00. Can you give the reason then why you paid her
more than that figure? A. No, I would not know.

Q. So then is it or is it not true that practically—
strike that—is it or is it not true that you go on the

recommendation of the Superintendent and not these ap
plication sheets?
[fol. 123] A. These are taken into consideration, hut, of
course, our final determination is made because of his
personal Contact with them and his report. We have
never had any personal contact with the majority of them.

Q. Well, according to Miss Rhoda Wharry’s applica
tion, she is a—she has college work at Arkansas State
Teachers’ College, with a B. S. E. and six weeks’ training
in the University of Colorado. She has two years’ teach
ing experience outside of the school system, and bearing
in mind this information over there, can you give any
reason she is paid more than Susie Morris?

A. No, because there is so much that goes into the mak
ing of a teacher. Unless you have personal contact, there
is no way for you to judge it.

Mr. Loughborough: These are exhibits?

Mr. Marshall: Yes, sir, they are for identification.

That is all, Mrs. McDermott.

Recross Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. I believe Mr. Marshall referred you to salaries paid
to certain entering white teachers, and the minutes they
were employed at a figure at least $810.00, and that others,
colored teachers, were employed at a figure of $615.00.
[fol. 124] He asked you the question, “ Wasn’t it the pol
icy then to pay entering white teachers at least $810.00
and the policy of paying colored teachers at least $615.00.”
I believe you said it was. A. It could be.

Q. The use of the word “ policy” there, was it your
language or Mr. Marshall’s language?

A. It was Mr. Marshall’s language.
Q. Has it been the policy of the School Board?
A. Oh, no, no.
Q. Has it been the custom or policy of the School

Board to pay any minimum salary? A. No, in no sense.
Q. And is there any policy to pay any group of teach

ers a minimum salary?
A. Those referred to were special minutes and doesn’t

make any policy at all.

Q. But you are prepared to state there is no such
policy? A. There is no such policy.

Mr. Nash: I would like to explain to the Court these
pages are not numbered and it ’s a little bit difficult to re
fer readily to the record.

Q. Mrs. McDermott, you do not know what salary the
plaintiff in this case receives, now, do you?
[fol. 125] A. I do not.

Q. Referring to page 3 of the application of Miss
Susie E. Cowan, who is now the plaintiff, Susie Morris,
and being Exhibit No. 2-B of the plaintiff, what statement
is made as to the amount of salary she will accept as the
beginning salary? A. $540.00.

Q. You say you do not know at what salary she is em
ployed? A. No, I don’t know what salary she gets.

Q. She was employed? A. No, I couldn’t remember.
Q. If she were employed at a salary greater than that,

would there be any reason for employing her at such an
increased salary ?

A. We 'considered she had the ability to earn it.
Q. The record shows that Miss Rhoda E. Wharry was

employed at a salary of more than $800.00, she said she
would take. Would there be any reason for paying her
the additional amount?

A. She had additional ability to earn the money.
Q. How often does the Personnel Committee meet?
A. About once a month.
Q. How long are the meetings? Can you say, gener

ally?
A. Sometimes they are long, and sometimes they are

not so long, an hour or two hours, nearly always from
4:30 to 6:00 most of the time.
[fol. 126] Q. Who was Superintendent at the time that
plaintiff was employed? A. Mr. R. C. Hall.

Q. And was he at the time that Rhoda E. Wharry was
employed, or do you know?

A. I don’t know the date of her employment.
Q. If she was employed prior to 1941, he would he?
A. Yes, prior to February, 1941.
Q. In examining the application, does the Personnel

Committee have before it more than the application pre
sented to use here?

A. We have the recommendation from the Superin
tendent.

Q. Had he made a prior investigation?
A. He always does.
Q. Does that include a personal interview?
A. I am sure it did.
Q. Be made with the applicant? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know whether he made a more strenuous

effort than that to obtain knowledge of the applicant’s
capability? A. He was very careful about all that.

Q. Was he able to give the Committee such informa
tion as the Committee desired to have? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were his reports merely perfunctory or were they
in detail?
[fob 127] A. They were in detail for the most part.

Q. Can you recall whether or not the Committee at any
time requested additional information on certain appli
cants?

A. We have, both colored and white.
Q. There have been occasions when the Committee was

not satisfied with the information presented?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And would the Superintendent make an additional

investigation and report? A. Yes, sir.
Q. State whether or not it is true if in determining

salaries the subject matter taught is a factor?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. If one applicant taught music and another one

taught English, could they be exactly equal as teachers ?
A. No.
Q. Would the fact that they taught different subjects

be some consideration in fixing the salaries?
A. It could be.
Q. Let me direct your attention again to the two appli

cations^ first one being Exhibit 2-B, being application of
the plaintiff, and referring again to the third page. Do
you remember whether she was employed at the time she
made this application to teach in the Little Rock Public
School System?
[fol. 128] A. Yes, sir, she was employed.

Q. What does it show her last salary as being paid at?
A. $765.00.
Q. And the amount she offered to come here?

A. $540.00.
Q. Directing your attention to Exhibit 2-C, the third

page, does it show that Khoda E. Wharry was employed
at the time the application was made? A. She was.

Q. And what does it show as the salary she was then
receiving? A. $900.00.

Q. And the salary for which she offered to come here?
A. $800.00.
Mr. Nash: I believe that is all.
Mr. Marshall: That is all.
Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, we do not object

to Mrs. McDermott being excused.
The Court: Do you have any objection?
Mr. Loughborough: No, we have no objection. She may

be excused.
The Court: Then, Mrs. McDermott, you may be ex

cused.

[fol. 129] Dr. R. M. Blakely, being first sworn as a. wit
ness on behalf of the plaintiff, testified as follows on

Direct Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Your address, Dr. Blakely?
A. Office or business?
Q. Home residence. A. 211 Crystal Court.
Q. And you are a physician? A. Yes.
Q. And you are a member of the School Board?
A. Y e s /
Q. How long have you been a member?
A. A year last march.
Q. You are now Secretary of the Board? A. Yes.
Q. How long have you been Secretary?
A. Since March of this year.
Q. Since you have been on the School Board—strike

that—if Your Honor please, we again, may we again pro
ceed under Rule 43 B with Dr. Blakely?

The Court: Yes.
Mr. Marshall: Thank you.

[fol. 130] By Mr. Marshall:
Q. Since you have been on the School Board, there

have come times when new teachers have been appointed
to the system? A. Yes.

Q. And is it or is it not true that all of the white teach
ers who have been appointed to the school system since
you have been a member of the Board have been paid
$810.00?

A. So far as I know, that is correct.
Q. And is it not also true that Negro teachers who

have been employed during the time that you have been
on the Board have been paid less than $810.00?

A. Some have, and some have not.
Q. Can you give us the name of any who have been

employed at more than $615.00?
A. At the last meeting we have, I think we have the

names of some right here—you mean that were appointed
for the first time?

Q. Yes.
A. No, that was an adjustment in salary. I don’t know

of any that have been appointed for more than that.
Q. You do not know of any Negro that has been ap

pointed, new to the system, that has received $810.00, do
you? A. No.

Q. They have all received less?
A. I am not so sure about that.

[fol. 131] Q. Do they not run in the average between
$615.00 and $630.00 for Negro teachers that have been ap
pointed since you were on the Board? A. Yes.

Q. And the white teachers run above $810.00?
A. Run from $810.00 up?
Q. Yes, sir. A. Yes.
Q. Can you give the reason for that?
A. I thought that was their qualifications, and we de

cided to pay that salary.
Q. Did you ever check their qualifications, of any of

these teachers?
A. No, that wasn’t one of my functions. I would not

put myself as being in a position of knowing the qualifica
tions of a teacher.

Q. As a matter of fact, you don’t know how it happens?
A. No, except qualifications, that is my understanding

about the salary schedule, the salary—

Mr. Loughborough: Speak a little louder so we can
hear you. Speak a little louder.

A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall: Q. Do you remember in 1941 there was

[fol. 132] a distribution of the supplemental amount of
money to all the teachers in Little Rock that came from the
state authority? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Isn’t it true that was distributed on the basis of
twice as much a unit for the white teacher as to the col
ored?

A. I understand that quota of twice as much to white
as to colored.

Q. Did you see the report?
A. I saw the report. I thought it was based on the

amount of salary the individual teachers received.
Q. Didn’t that report come to you as Secretary of the

Board, the report from the Committee that was to set up
the distribution?

A. Well, the first one that came, I wasn’t Secretary of
the Board.

Q. Well, since you have been Secretary of the Board,
to be specific, on May the 27th, 1942, there was another
distribution.

A. Another distribution?
Q. Of supplemental money, and it was distributed on

the same basis? A. On the same basis.
Q. And at that time did you see the basis it was dis

tributed upon?
A. Well, I thought that was based on salary each teach-

[fol. 133] er received.
Q. Then you don’t know per teaching unit the Negro

teachers got half as much as white teachers?
A. No, no, I thought it was based on amount of salary

the teachers received.
Q. If I told you that the basis of arriving at that figure

was to work out a plan which took into consideration the
number of years’ teaching, the degree held by the teacher,
and the present salary held by the teacher, and on that
basis a unit was worked up so you got so many units as
to where you average on that, and used the same yard
stick for both white and colored teachers, and after ar
riving at the units, why the white teachers got twice as
much as colored teachers, would you think that was right?

A. Well, all of the white teachers didn’t get the same
amount.

Q. If it were true that all of the white teachers with
an A. B. Degree and five years’ teaching experience and
with a salary in the level of between $600.00 and $1000.00
got more than a Negro teacher in that same level, would
you think that was right?

A. Well, I never had given that any thought. It was
not my particular duty to make that adjustment or to
figure it out as to why it was that way.

Q. Dr. Blakely, didn’t you consider it your duty as a
member of the Board to watch how the money is spent ?
[fol. 134] A. Yes.

Q. Well, was it your idea, that the funds for the teach
ers’ salary should be distributed without regard to race
or color?

A. Yes, that race or color has never entered into it
since I have been a member of the Board.

Q. Well, then, do you think that all white teachers
teaching from two to seven years in the system with an
A. B. Degree and getting from $600.00 to $1099.00 should
get twice as much as every Negro teacher with two to seven
years’ experience and an A. B. Degree and a salary of
$600.00 to $1099.00? Do you think that is proper?

A. Do I think it is proper?
Q. Yes.
A. I thought all of that was based on the amount of

salary that an individual received.
Q. Now, both white and colored teachers are between

$600.00 and $1100.00, both of them, both colored and white
teachers have an A. B. Degree, and both colored and white
teachers have from two to seven years’ experience. Do
you think it is proper to pay the white teacher twice as
much as the Negro teacher in that category?

A. No, that would depend, I am sure, upon the ability
of the teacher to teach. A lot of people with an A. B. De
gree wouldn’t be able to teach at all, and wouldn’t be a
[fol. 135] teacher at all.

Q. If the only factor to be considered were those
three, would you say if the ability to teach was not even
considered, what would you say then?

A. Well, that has never been one of my functions, and
I haven’t given that any particular thought. It is not my

duty as a member of the School Board to receive the
application of a teacher, sign a teacher to the contract.

Q. But it is your duty to decide how the money shall be
distributed?

A. Well, it is one of my functions to see that the School
Board runs within their means.

Q. And it was your duty to distribute supplemental
teaching money for teachers’ salary, was it not?

A. Yes.
Q. And if it is true that that money is distributed on

the basis of one-half per unit to Negro teachers that is
given to white teachers, can you give any reason for that?

A. I thought it was based on the amount of salary
they drew.

Q. Well, they both got the same salary, in the same
bracket. A. Uh-huh.

Q. Can you give any other reason other than race why
the white teacher gets twice as much as the colored teacher ?

A. I never heard it mentioned in the distribution of it.
Q. If we were working out a formula whereby we figured

[fol. 136] out the number of units a teacher is entitled to,
at the same time for white and colored, after you arrive at
the units for both white and colored and you then decided
to pay the Negro teacher one-half per unit than you had
paid the white teacher, can you give any other reason
other than race or color?

A. I never have heard the question of race or color
mentioned.

Q. Can you give anything that a white teacher would
have to do to qualify for three dollars per unit other than
to be white and be a teacher in the schools of Little Rock,
Arkansas ?

A. I never gave it any thought.
Q. You never paid it any attention?
A. No, I didn’t figure out the units, but when the money

was ready for distribution, somebody moved that we dis
tribute it out to be arrived at, but it wasn’t my duty to
figure out that.

Q. But you did consider it and passed upon it?
A. I passed on it when it was presented.
Q. Did you consider it? You did not pass on it without

reading it?

A. Sure, I knew how much was going to be distributed.
Mr. Marshall: That is all.

[fol. 137] Cross- Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Dr. Blakely, I believe you are now Secretary of the
Board? A. Yes, sir.

Q. I do not believe it has been brought out before, do
you receive a salary as a member of the Board?

A. Do I receive a salary?
Q. Yes. A. No, sir.
Q. Do you receive a salary as Secretary to the School

Board? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know any of the members of the School

Board receiving salaries? A. None.
Q. None do?
A. None that I know of. It is my impression that none

do.
Q. I believe you say you have been on the Board

since March, 1941? A. That is right.
Q. Since you have been on the Board, have you seen a

fixed salary schedule used by the Board in fixing salaries?
A. None.
Q. Is there any such salary schedule? So far as you

know? A. There is not.
Q. Has the Board, so far as you know, ever indicated

[fol. 138] to the Superintendent the figure at which he
may not go below in employing teachers?

A. Ask that question again.

Mr. Marshall: Read it.

Reporter reads question as follows:

“ Has the Board, so far as you know, ever indicated to
the Superintendent the figure at which he may not go
below in employing teachers?”

A. I do not recall.
Q. In other words, so far as you know, has the Board

ever told Mr. Scobee that a certain teaching job carried a
fixed salary which he had to pay ?

A. No, that has not been done.

8 0

Q. And has the question of race and color ever been
discussed in the Board meeting in fixing salaries?

A. Never.
Q. What is your personal inclination, Dr. Blakely, with

reference to discriminating against colored people on the
basis of color and race?

A. What is my inclination?
Q. Would you pay a colored teacher less simply because

they are colored?
A. No, it has always been my opinion that salaries are

based on qualifications and color had nothing to do with it
at all.
[fob 139] Q. Has that been your personal inclination?

A. Yes, sir. You see, when I came on the Board all
teachers were already under contract, and they have only
signed one contract since then. All these teachers were
teachers previously. There has been only one signing of
contracts since I have been on the Board, and that is the
present term for the fall of this year.

Q. With reference to this bonus distribution, it has been
brought out that the white teachers were paid three dollars
per unit and colored teachers one-half that amount. Do
you know how these figures would appear on a percentage
basis with reference to salaries paid?

A. I thought it would be about equal.
Q. Do you mean that the money paid to the individuals

would be approximately the same on percentage basis?

Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, I Avould like to
register an objection to that question. Dr. Blakely has
previously admitted he doesn’t know anything about it, and
now we are trying to get an opinion as to percentage basis,
hut the witness would have had to go into very careful
detail to find out what the percentage basis is.

Mr. Nash: I call the Court’s attention to the fact that
Dr. Blakely persisted in saying he thought this was all
[fob 140] based on amount, and I want to clear up what
he means by that.

The Court: All right.

Mr. Nash: Do you remember the question that I asked,
Dr. Blakely?

8 1

A. You asked about the colored teachers were paid
half the amount the white teachers, and you wanted to
know why that was done and how that was arrived at, and
I am of the opinion it was arrived at according to the
salary they received, that determined the amount they re
ceived. That is my opinion of it. About all of the units,
I knew that some of the white teachers didn’t get as much
as some other white teachers, and some of the colored teach
ers got more than some of the other colored teachers, but
I thought that was based on the salary they received. A
teacher drawing $700.00 probably wouldn’t get as much as a
teacher drawing a thousand dollars, but the thousand dol
lar teacher probably had been in the system longer and
had more qualifications for getting the thousand dollars.

Q. Dr. Blakely, in spite of the arbitrary fixing of the
amount at three dollars and a dollar and a half, do you
know how the figures would run on a percentage basis,
would the results be about the same on a percentage basis
of salaries paid?
[fol. 141] A. That is my understanding.

Q. Is that what you mean when you say it is based on
the amount received?

A. Yefe, sir, amount of salary received, someone gets
twice as much as someone else, or drew twice as much
bonus.

Q. In other words, a white teacher drawing twice as
much bonus would receive twice as much salary. Is that
what you are trying to say?

A. Something in that neighborhood.

Mr. Nash: That is all.
Redirect Examination.

By Mr. Marshall:
Q. Dr. Blakely, did you arrive at that figure because

of your understanding that Negro teachers in Little Rock
got less than white teachers?

A. I didn’t figure out that, no, there was so much
money to be paid.

Q. Now, Dr. Blakely, you said a minute ago you know
nothing about that bonus or know what the percentage

6—12,887

8 2

was, but I am merely asking what was the theory behind
paying this double amount?

A. I thought it was based on salary that the teacher
received.

Q. Isn’t it true that the white teacher got more than the
colored teacher?
[fol. 142] A. As a rule, they did.

Q. And so to make that worse, you paid the Negro
half?

A. No, the same on the basis of the salary. If the
colored teacher was paid $600.00 and the white teacher
$1200.00, the white teacher got twice as much.

Q. If I told you it figured out on salary each year
in direct reverse ratio to salary, in other words, the teacher
getting less than a thousand dollars got more than a
teacher getting eleven hundred dollars, what would you
say?

A. I don’t know the details of arriving at that particular
part.

Q. So, as a matter of fact, Dr. Blakely, you don’t know
what basis was used?

A. Except there was a unit system, but I didn’t have
all that unit system explained to me. We had a small
amount of money to distribute and wanted to distribute it
equitably.

Q. But it is clear in your mind the Negro teacher didn’t
get as much as the white teacher? A. Yes, sir.

Q. That is clear in your mind?
A. Yes, based on their income.
Q. Do you know what it would be on?
A. That was my understanding of it.

[fol. 143] Q. You don’t know?
A. It wasn’t mentioned at the time because this person

was colored and the other was white. That had nothing
to do with it so far as I know.

Q. It didn’t come up? A. No.
Q. It did come up that a Negro got a dollar and a half

per unit and that the white teacher got three dollars a
unit?

A. I don’t know what was on that.
Q. In the plan, did it not say specifically that the white

teachers got three dollars per unit and the Negro teacher
got a dollar and a half per unit? Is that not true?

A. Well, I don’t think I read that plan over. I didn’t
read that plan.

Q. But you voted for it?
A. Well, I heard the figures given. Yes, I voted on it,

and there was a great deal of detail in there, and I didn’t
go into all of that.

The Court: Any further examination?
Mr. Nash: I believe not.
The Court: Call the next witness.
Do you desire the Doctor any further?

[fol. 144] Mr. Marshall: No, sir.
The Court: You may be excused.
The witness was excused.

Here the Court recessed for a few minutes, after which
it proceeded as follows:

Mrs. W. S. Rawlings, sworn as a witness on behalf of
the plaintiff, testified as follows on:

Direct Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Your full name and address?
A. Mrs. W. S. Rawlings, 508 East 9th Street.
Q. And you are a member of the School Board?
A. Yes.
Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, may I have the

permission to proceed under Rule 43 B in questioning this
witness?

The Court: Yes.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. How long have you been a member of the School
Board? A. Since 1934.
[fol. 145] Q. The spring of ’34? A. Yes, sir.

Q. During the time of your membership on the School
Board, have you ever served on the Personnel Committee?

A. Yes, it was called a Teachers’ Committee at that
time.

Q. And it was a part of that Committee’s duty to pick
out teachers for particular jobs and fix the salaries?

A. Yes.
Q. And during your time on that Committee and dur

ing the time you have been on the School Board, you have
considered the question of individual teachers and their
salary? A. Yes.

Q. And during that time on the Board, is it not true
that as to new teachers to the system you paid white
teachers new to the system more than Negro teachers
new to the system?

A. No, not in all cases. It depended on the individual.
Q. Well, since 1938, is it not true that all of the Negro

teachers employed have ranged between $615.00 and
$630.00? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And is it not true that during that same time no
white teachers have been employed at less than $810.00?

A. I could not say, but I think you are correct.
Q. Somewhere from $800.00 up, at least?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you give any reason for that?

[fol. 146] A. Yes, I can.
Q. Well, what would the reason he, Mrs. Rawlings?
A. Well, I Avould say the reason for it would be the

qualification, background and training, all of the things
that go to make a teacher. Some people fall into one
category and some into another.

Q. But all of the Negroes fell into one category?
A. I wouldn’t say so, but I wouldn’t say all of the

white teachers fell into one category.
Q. Do you remember during the time that you have

been on the Board some exceptionally well qualified Negro
teachers were employed?

A. I couldn’t name them as individuals, hut I think
we have some very good Negroes in the Little Rock School
System.

Q. And isn’t it true that they were paid less than the
beginning white teachers?

A. I couldn’t say that.
Q. Mrs. Rawlings, you cannot use any one yardstick

as to the qualifications for all Negro teachers?
A. No, nor can you as to all white teachers.

Q. You do know there are some Negro teachers in the
system from accredited colleges? A. Yes.

Q. And, of course, some from non-accredited colleges?
A. Yes.

[fol. 147] Q. During the time you have been on the
School Board, do you remember back in 1936 when the
blanket increase of salaries was given to both white and
Negro teachers?

A. No, I don’t remember the year, and I do not re
member the definite amount.

Q. But do you remember that there were blanket in
creases of $67.50 to every white teacher and $45.00 to all
Negro teachers?

A. I remember there was an increase, but I do not
remember the definite amount.

Q. Do you remember it was more for the white teachers
than for the Negro teachers?

A. Well, since you have said that was the case and the
record shows that, it must be true.

Q. Mrs. Rawlings, do you remember anything about the
discussion of the salary schedule since you have been on
the Board? A. You mean as a schedule?

Q. Yes, Ma’m.
A. No. You see there has been no salary schedule

discussion since I have been on the Board. I came in after
the depression.

Q. Directing your attention to the minutes for March
the 30th, 1936, which records you as being present, and
reading from the resolution which is adopted upon the
[fol. 148] motion made by Mrs. McDermott and seconded
by you and which reports as follows: “ First, that all
teachers and employees who received salary cuts under
the official schedule should receive at the close of the pres
ent school year a salary adjustment of 150% of the re
spective salary adjustments made in May, 1935.

“ Second, that the contracts for 1936-37 of all white
teachers who are now making $832.00 or less be increased
$67.50, and all teachers above $832.50 be increased to
$900.00, and that no adjustment exceed $900.00.

“ Third, that the contracts for 1936-37 of all colored
teachers who now receive $655.00 or less be increased

8 6

$45.00, and all above $655.00 be increased to $700, and that
no adjustment exceed $700.00.

“ Fourth, that the salaries of all white teachers who have
entered the employ of the Little Rock School Board since
the above salary cuts, or whose salaries were so low as
not to receive any cut, be adjusted $45.00 for 1935-36.

“ Fifth, that the salaries of all colored teachers who
have entered the employ of the Little Rock School Board
since the above salary cuts, or whose salaries were so
low as not to receive any cut, be adjusted $30.00 for
1935-36.”

A. To say that I remember, I really don’t, but I was
[fol. 149] there as a matter of record and voted on it.

Q. Now, then, it seems that all of the white teachers
got a minimum of $67.50 increase and colored teachers get
a salary of $45.00 —

A. Don’t some of the white teachers fail to get that
amount —

Q. It says “ $832.50 or less be increased $67.50 —
A. Be increased to $900.00, yes, $67.50, I see.
Q. So that under that system is it not true that the

yardstick used there is the race of the teacher?
A. Oh, no, no, not necessarily.
Q. It says all white teachers who are now making

$832.50 or less, and it says all colored teachers now re
ceiving $655.00 or less. Why would that use the word
“ white” and “ colored” ?

A. Well, in the beginning these salaries that are raised
were based on individual interviews with the Superin
tendent, and their salaries were cut according, so that they
fell into groups, naturally.

Q. You group white people in one group and you group
the colored teachers in one group, and there are two sets
of white teachers, aren’t there?

A. You have to group them up.
Q. Isn’t it true that under that grouping, regardless

s of how good the colored teacher might be or how good
a teacher he might be, it would be impossible for him to
[fol. 150] get $67.50 increase?

A. He didn’t get it there, but it could be.
Q. Not under this resolution.

A. No, not under that resolution, no.
Q. Under this resolution the colored teachers are pre

cluded from getting it, it says “ all colored teachers” .
Is that not true? A. You have said it.

Q. And is it not true that because a teacher is colored
he cannot get as much as the white teacher?

A. No, it is not, because from the beginning it was
based on qualifications.

Q. Let’s take this list, taking the colored teacher mak
ing $700.00. First, I will read this section to you: “ Sec
ond, that the contracts for 1936-37 of all white teachers
who are now making $832.50 or less be increased $67.50,
and all teachers above $832.50 be increased to $900, and
that no adjustment exceed $900.00.”

A. Yes.
Q. And for the Negro teacher “ who now is receiving

$655.00 be increased $45.00, and all above $655.00 be in
creased to $700.00,” so naturally it is impossible for a
Negro teacher getting $700.00 to get an increase.

A. Well, if there have been some cases where there has
been an injustice, the Board has always tried in individual
[fol. 151] cases to rectify it.

Q. Well, under this rule, is it not true that no colored
teacher can get more than $700.00, that they don’t get
any increase if they are getting over $700.00?

A. Yes, according to that.
Q. According to that, the white teachers up to $900.00

can get an increase? A. You have just said it.
Q. Is it not true? A. You have said that.
Q. So a white teacher getting $700.00 and a colored

teacher getting $700.00, the white teacher would get $67.50
and the colored teacher would get nothing. Is that not
true? A. You have said it.

Q. Well, can you give any reason for that other than
the race?

A. Yes, the same reason I have given all the way
through.

Q. So the Negro teacher coming into the system and
the white teacher coming into the system come in at un
equal salaries. Is that not true? A. Yes.

Q. And under the system as set out in this resolution
and other blanket increases, does it not so happen that the

8 8

colored teacher takes a good deal less than the white
teacher getting all over that as long as they are white?
[fol. 152] A. It would be true, but whether in all cases, I
cannot say.

Q. But isn’t that the general rule? A. Yes.
Q. So the two teachers starting in in 1935, one white

and one colored, the white teacher started at $638.00 and
the colored teacher starting at $540.00, it would so happen
by reason of this resolution the difference between these
two salaries would increase instead of decrease?

A. Haven’t there been salary adjustments made since
that resolution?

Q. I don’t see anything (looks at book). May the 11th,
1930 it appears there was an increase of one-eighth of the
last salary cut. Do you remember that? A. Yes.

Q. And then in April, 1940, there was another increase
on the individual salary basis? A. Yes.

Q. And is it not true that in both these increases, the
colored teachers got less than the white teachers?

A. That is possible on their salaries percentage basis,
the least amount of money is always least.

Q. Mrs. Rawlings, do you think the Negro teachers in
the Little Rock School System are all not as good as the
white teachers?

A. I think there are some Negro teachers as good as
[fol. 153] some of the white teachers, but I think there
are some not as good.

Q. Can you give any reason as to why, the academic
level being the same and school taught, school from,
you can’t find any Negro teacher getting the salary of a
white teacher?

A. The same reason, there is more than simple educa
tion and training, experience all goes into the making of
a teacher.

Q. You said a moment ago there were some you con
sidered better than some of the white teachers?

A. Yes, and there are some getting more than the white
teachers. I simply said I thought there were some that
are better.

Q. Coming to the supplementary payment of teachers’
salaries in 1941-42. Did you hear us discussing this morn
ing, and do you remember the basis of that distribution?

A. Let me see. There was a program as gotten out by
a group of teachers which they presented to the Board,
and as well as I remember on the basis of training, ex
perience, and let me see, and salary, I think those were
the three items.

Q. Mrs. Rawlings, that Committee of teachers was

A. Yes, I imagine. We don’t mix committees in this
city.
[fol. 154] Q. Don’t you think the Negro teachers were
entitled to representation in the group that was to dis
tribute their money?

A. Well, that’s a matter of opinion.
Q. Well, I am asking you for your view.
A. That was left up to the Board.
Q. Did you take it up with them? A. I did not.
Q. Did the Board refer this to the white teachers’

group?
A. The Board referred it to Mr. Scobee, and the group,

to work it out.
Q. Why did the Board not refer it to the colored

teachers’ association? You have a colored teachers’ com
mittee, don’t you? A. I think we did.

Q. It was not referred to them?
A. I don’t know, it might have been, but I don’t know.
Q. However the grouping was arranged for the pay

ment of this according to the degree, experience and
salary they were getting so as to make units for each.
Was that not true? A. Well, I think so.

Q. And isn’t it true that the same yardstick was used
for both white and colored teachers in arriving at the
units? A. Yes, I think it was.

Q. And isn’t it also true that after the amount of the
[fol. 155] units was arrived at, why, the white teacher
was given three dollars per unit and the colored teacher
was given a dollar and a half per unit?

A. les , I think so, but I think when you finally work it
out on the percentage proportion the proportion is practi
cally the same.

Q. Let’s take the plaintiff in this case who has an A. B.
Degree, seven years ’ experience and salary of $760.00, and
I find on checking this that from two to seven years’ ex
perience is entitled to one point, which gives Susie Morris

composed wholly of white teachers ?

one point, for an A.B. Degree is five points, which en
titles her to six points, and salary so much, $700.00 to
$1100.00 six points, which makes a total of twelve points.

A. One, five and six, yes.
Q. We take a white teacher teaching in the system who

has been teaching seven years, which is one point, an
A.B. Degree just like Susie Morris, both of them, and
teaching seven years in the system which makes her get
twelve points. A. Yes.

Q. So these teachers with the same qualifications, so
far as this is concerned, this rating sheet, Susie Morris
would get one and a half times twelve, or $18.00, and the
white teacher would get $36.00.
[fol. 156] A. If you compare the amount of money that
Susie Morris got for her salary, won’t it he practically
the same percentage of salary, as all Negroes'?

Q. You mean the percentage of her salary?
A. Don’t it work out practically the same?
Q. No, I don’t think so, because it is made directly in

vert, the least number of points you can get for salary is
two to seven, and over, which is $26.00, so that under this
rule the white teacher will get $32.00 for having $1200.00 —

A. $36.00.
Q. $36.00. A. $36.00, you are off $4.00.
Q. And the colored teacher would get $18.00. Is it not

true that on that basis the only difference between them —
strike that—in other words, the only thing keeping Susie
Morris with twelve units from getting $36.00 is the fact
that she is a Negro? Is that not true?

A. No, I think as I have said in the very beginning, it
goes back to her salary, and her salary is based on the
things I have suggested.

Q. All right. Here is a white teacher who had the
seven years’ experience, an A.B. Degree and salary be
tween $700.00 and $1100.00. Would she not get $36.00?

A. If her qualifications and all her bracket were paid
[fol. 157] $36.00, she would get $36.00.

Q. The only three items in the distribution of this
money was the degree, experience and salary, so that if
Susie Morris were white, she would get $36.00.

A. She would have more salary in the beginning.
Q. There are some white teachers in the school system

getting less than $1100.00? A. Yes.

Q. Some new teachers, say their experience is all in
town, is less than seven years, and their salary is between
$700.00 and $1100.00, and they have an A.B. Degree.

A. Yes, sir.
Q. So there are some white teachers in that bracket,

though, who get $32.00, so that Susie Morris is in that
bracket and gets $18.00.

A. Susie Morris may not be as good a teacher, but I
don’t know about that.

Q. Would it not be true that a white teacher with no
experience at all, regardless of her teaching ability, would
she get $36.00?

A. According to that set-up, she would.
Q. So that Susie Morris — can you give any other

reason for that set-up which prevents Susie Morris from
getting $36.00 except that she is a Negro? A. Yes.
[fol. 158] Q. All right.

A. The salary goes into it, and her salary was based on
her ability as checked by Mr. Hall, who employed her,
I think. I don’t remember when she came into the system.
When did she come into the system?

Q. 1935. A. Uh-huh.
Mr. Marshall: We want this marked for identification.
The above exhibits marked 3-A and 3-B for identifica

tion. (Shown following the testimony in this printed rec
ord.)

Q. I show you the bulletin sent out by Mr. Seobee.
A. If I can read it, I have my new glasses and have to

get it fixed right. (Takes exibit and reads it)
Q. Now, will you keep it for a minute, Mrs. Rawlings.

Take a white teacher in a junior high school, Miss Lillian
Lane.

Mr. Loughborough: This is a duplicate of what you are
examining on?

Mr. Marshall: They are almost alike.
A. The difference is in the $3.00 and the $1.50.

By Mr. Marshall:
Q. Now, a teacher in a junior high school, Miss Lillian

Lane, who has an A. B. Degree, she would get how many
points for that?

[fol. 159] A. Didn’t you say five?
Q. Five. And she has been teaching in the system one

year. She would get one point for that.
A. No, it says two to seven years.
Q. And her salary is $900.00, so what bracket would

she fall in on that? A. This says $2700.00.
Q. No, down at the bottom.
A. Down at the bottom? She would fall in the $699.00,

which would give her twelve points.
Q. So she would get $36.00?
A. Twelve times three is thirty-six. She would get

$36.00.
Q. And Susie Morris would get $18.00.
A. If it is comparable.
Q. Let us go through it. Susie Morris has an A. B.

Degree? A. Yes, that is five.
Q. She has six years’ experience in Little Bock, alto

gether?
A. Yes, sir, two points—no, one point, two to seven.
Q. And her salary is $700.00.
A. That gives her six points.
Q. So she would only get one and a half times twelve,

or $18.00? A. Yes.
Q. And no way she could get more than that?
A. Not according to this.

[fol. 160] Q. So between these two teachers, Miss Lane
and Miss Morris, what additional conditions prevent them
getting the same amount? Is it their experience, degree
or salary? A. I could not tell you.

Q. The race is in there, isn’t it, because the colored
teacher gets a dollar and a half and the white teacher gets
three? Is that not true?

A. That is your statement and not mine.
Q. Is it not true? Can you name any other reason on

the basis of this sheet here, the plaintiff’s, for identifica
tion, 3-B. Can you give any other condition other than
race that prevents Susie Morris from getting $36.00?

A. Well, the race question never came into it. The
race question has never come into any of our conferences.
Nobody has ever said anything about the race question,
of the fact that she is a Negro, at any meeting I have ever
been to.

Q. But, Mrs. Rawlings, the race question is used in
saying that white teachers get $36.00 and the colored
teacher gets $18.00.

A. No, race has never been used.
Q. And why did they put it on race?
A. It was not put on race.
Q. Why did they say the white teacher got one—

[fol. 161] A. I don’t think it is on that bulletin.
Q. One says a dollar and a half, and one says three

dollars.
A. I don’t think that color or Negro is used in either

one.
Q. No, it doesn’t. A. Uh-huh.
Q. But isn’t it a fact that says dollar and a half is

the one that was sent to the colored teachers and the three
dollars is the one sent to the white teachers. Isn’t it true
on that basis that one dollar and fifty cents to the colored
and three dollars to the white teachers ?

A. Yes, that is it right there.
Mr. Marshall: Your witness.

Cross-Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Mrs. Rawlings, when was it you came on the S'chool
Board? A. 1934.

Q. Have you been on the School Board continuously
since then? A. Except when I was out of town.

Q. In what capacities have you served?
A. I have been the Vice-President, the Secretary, and

been on the various Teachers’ Committee and other com
mittees.

Q. Have you also been on the Teachers’ Personnel
Committee?

A. Yes, sir, it was all one, but when Mr. Scobee came
[fol. 162] in he divided the board into two committees,
the Personnel and the Finance.

Q. In the term that you have served on the School
Board, have you ever observed a fixed schedule of salaries ?

A. It has always been variable, as I remember.
Q. You have never seen a fixed schedule used by the

School Board? A. Never.
Q. Do you recall whether the School Board has ever

instructed the Superintendent to use certain figures for
minimum salaries in employing teachers? A. No.

Q. So far as you can recall, lias there ever been any
discussion in the meeting of the School Board on the ques
tion of race and color in fixing salaries? A. Never.

Q. During the times you have served on the Personnel
Committee, has there ever been such a discussion relative
to race and color in fixing salaries? A. No.

Q. In your capacity as a member of the Teachers’
Committee, what have you had in mind in employing ap
plicants ?

A. Well, of course, you take into consideration their
qualifications as a teacher, their educational background,
their training, their aptitude, their cooperative qualities
[fol. 163] and things of that kind; as we said here once
before in this Court, there are intangibles you can’t ex
actly put your finger on in selecting a teacher.

Q. State whether or not you use your best judgment
in trying to evaluate the applicants. A. Yes, sir.

Q. During the time that Mr. Hall was Superintendent
of School System, what was his custom with reference
to making reports to the Teachers’ Committee, were they
brief or were they in detail, or otherwise?

A. Well, when he had a meeting of the Teachers’ Com
mittee, he has a list of vacancies and then for each one
he had considered applicants to that particular position,
and there were a number of elementary schools, and he
took all the applicants and went over them and decided
which ones were the best, and we talked it over with re
gard to their background and educational qualifications,
their length of service as teachers, and in every case these
teachers, or applicants, had been interviewed by Mr. Hall,
and I am sure the same thing obtains to Mr. Scobee, and
sometimes they were not only interviewed once but two
or three times to make sure the best judgment was being
used, and sometimes when there was a doubt in our minds
about the candidate and we wanted to be absolutely fair,
Mr. Hall would see them two or three times.
[fol. 164] Q. Was it his custom in such instances to re
port back to the Teachers’ Committee?

A. Yes, sir, he gave us his findings, to the Committee.
Q. Do you recall whether or not the Teachers’ Com

mittee ever differed with the Superintendent in his recom
mendations ?

A. Well, if we had personal knowledge, if we had per
sonal knowledge of a person we would give that for what
it is worth, but there was not any discrimination, no.

Q. Can you recall whether the salary recommended
for a given applicant was reduced by reason of color?

A. No.
Q. If as a member of the Teachers’ Committee you

had before you for consideration two applicants who, in
your best judgment, were equally qualified in all respects
as a teacher, would you be willing to pay them the same
salaries, regardless of color?

A. If their qualifications, their background, their apti
tude, their attitude and all were the same, yes, and if
they were teaching similar subjects.

Q. Do you recall whether or not—strike that, please—
do you recall how many salaries reductions there have
been since you have been a member of the School Board?

A. Reductions?
Q. Yes. Do you remember whether or not the salaries

have ever been reduced since you have been on the School
Board?
[fol. 165] A. They were reduced when I came on, but
I don’t think we have Cut the salaries since I came on the
Board. I thinjk they have been upped a little bit, but I
wouldn’t be sure of that. Over a period of many years, it
is hard to remember.

Q. Do you know whether or not, of your own knowl
edge, whether or not the salary now received by the
teachers is the salary received in 1939 for the same teach
er, or were they different?

A. The only thing I can say one of the teachers told
me the other day, he is a principal now—

Q. No, no, do you know of your own knowledge?
A. No, I don’t know. I don’t.
Q. Directing your attention again to the minutes for

the meeting of March 30, 1936, at which meeting you were
present and about which you have testified, there appears
in the minutes a resolution as read by Mr. Marshall.
You have no distinct,—strike that—have you a distinct
recollection as to that resolution without referring to
the minutes? A. No.

Q. I ask that you read it, please, with the purpose of
determining whether it was the intention of the Board

to increase salaries or to adjust salaries on the basis of
salary cuts.
[fol. i66] A. It says right here in the minutes, “ On the
question of salary adjustment, the recommendations of
the Committee were as follows.”

Q. Have you finished the reading of it? A. Yes.
Q. Having refreshed your recollection as to that reso

lution, can you say now whether the purpose of it was
to increase salaries or to adjust salaries on the basis of
salary cuts?

A. Well, it says very definitely here, it is an adjust
ment of salaries, “ salary adjustment” .

Q. In the first paragraph of the resolution, what is the
basis for that adjustment?

A. One hundred and fifty percent of the respective
salary adjustments cut in 1935, made in 1936.

Q. It is placed on the percentage basis. Is that true?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. The latter part of the resolution tells us only the

teachers coming into the system for the first time since
then or employed at a salary too low to be cut—

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are to be adjusted $45.00? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is all. (Takes the exhibit) I believe you were

asked by Mr. Marshall—no—strike that, please. Have you
[fol. 167] endeavored personally to make a critical analy
sis of all salaries paid to teachers now in our public
school system? A. No, I have not.

Q. In order to make a detailed comparison of one teach
er with another, would you need to do that?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. With reference to the bonus paid to teachers and

this proportion of $3.00 to $1.50 per unit, do you know the
amount of money on hand to be distributed?

A. I think it was somewhere between fifty-four and
fifty-five thousand dollars.

Q. The total of the two, or do you mean—
A. How is that?
Q. Was that the total amount of the two distributions,

or was that the amount of the first distribution?
A. I think that was the amount for the last distribution.
Q. Do you remember the amount for the first distribu

tion? A. No, I really don’t.

Q. It has been stated that the first distribution was
made some time in the fall of 1941. Would that he after the
fixing of salaries for the school year of 1941-42?

A. Let me get that straight again. What did you ask
me?

Q. Let me put it this way. When were the salaries for
1941-1942 fixed?

A. The teachers usually get their contracts in April,
[fol. 168] in April or May, and the salaries are fixed by
that time. You see, school is usually out some time in
May, and if they don’t get their contracts by that date
they are automatically re-employed.

Q. So the salaries for the school just closed, salaries
Avere fixed in April or May, 1941?

A. You mean for 1941-42?
Q. Yes. A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then the distribution of this bonus, did it enter into

the question of fixing the salaries for the school year of
1941-42? A. No, I think not.

Q. So far as you know, was this bonus in contempla
tion at the time these salaries Avere fixed? A. No.

Q. The second bonus Avas distributed in the spring of
1942?

A. Noav, that is the bonus I was talking about was fifty-
four thousand, that was the last one.

Q. Did that enter into the contemplation of the School
Board in fixing the salaries for the years in question?

A. No, we have to live Avithin our budget, and we have
to figure expenses according to Avliat Ave have reasonable
expectancy for.

Q. At the time—Avell, strike that, please— are you able
[fol. 169] to recall noAv whether you were a member of the
Teachers’ Committee at the time AAdien Mrs. McDermott
was not such a member?

A. Well, offhand I cannot remember.
Q. H oav often Avould you say the Teachers’ Committee

met?
A. Well, we met at least once a month; and when there

Avere vacancies and a need for meeting, we Avere subject to
call.

Q. You say you met at least once a month?

7— 12,887

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you meet in between times for any purpose?
A. Not unless there was a necessity for it, no.
Q. How often were these meetings, Mrs. Rawlings?
A. Oh, that would be, it depended upon the number of

vacancies to be filled and number of applicants to be con
sidered.

Q. Were the meetings perfunctory, or did you discuss
the applicants in detail?

A. The applicants were discussed.
Q. Let me direct your attention to the minutes for the

meeting of July the 27th, 1935.
A. That was a long time ago. Where is that?
Q. Were you present at that meeting?
A. I certainly was, according to this. You mean on

July 1?
Q. Yes. A. Uh-huh.
Q. At that meeting were the names of teachers present-

ffol. 170] ed for election? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And are they listed?
A. (Reading) E. L. Belger, Jr., colored, $60.00 a

month; Danice Moulden, colored, $60.00 per month, vice
Lynette Wiggins at $60.00, not accepted; Kathleen Breit,
$688.00, vice Mary Alice Darr at $811.80, leave of absence;
M. F. Moose at $1600.00, vice Kenneth Bird at $1881.00,
leave of absence.

Q. The point is that the colored teachers are listed
first? A. Yes, sir.

Mr. Nash: That is all.

Redirect Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. As to all this point about the colored teachers being
listed first, they are not all always first, are they?

A. I think that is a matter of chance for whoever keeps
the minutes.

Mr. Marshall: That is all.

Mr. Nash: That is all.

The witness was excused.

[fol. 171] Murray 0. Reed, sworn as a witness on behalf
of the plaintiff, testified as follows on

Direct Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Your full name and address, Mr. Reed?
A. Murray O. Reed, 5304 T Street or Country Club

Boulevard, I believe, is the name, in Little Rock, Arkansas.
Q. You are a member of the School Board?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you been a member?
A. A little over three years.
Q. And you have also held office on the Board?
A. Well, I have been President and Secretary.
Q. During that time on the School Board, there has

come up the question of the appointment of teachers to
different schools in Little Rock? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And fixing the salaries? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it not true that since you have been on the School

Board all white teachers new to the system that have
been employed have been paid not less than $810.00?

A. No, I don’t think that’s true. I think in some in
stances they have been paid less, I don’t recall, but it
[fol. 172] seems to me in some cases smaller salaries were
paid.

Q. Do you know that all the Negro teachers are paid
between $615.00 and $630.00, with one exception $675.00?
Do you remember that?

A. All between $615.00 and $630.00 you say?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No, I didn’t know that.
Q. Is it clear in your mind that Negro teachers new to

the system are paid less than white teachers new to the
system? A. I think most of them are.

Q. Can you give any reason for that?
A. Well, I guess there are many reasons.
Q. I mean reasons within your mind.
A. Yes, many reasons.
Q. Can we have these reasons?
A. Well, the qualifications are entirely different in

most cases, personalities are different, their ability to
teach is different, the supervision necessary in connection
with the school system over the colored teachers is entirely
different, there are many differences.

100

Q. Well, do you have some Negro teacher who has
come on since you have been on the School Board, getting
to your first again, that have come from accredited col
leges?

A. I think so, I don’t recall the exact teacher or school,
[fol. 173] but I am sure that has been the case.

Q. That has been the case? A. Yes.
Q. And they have been paid less than white teachers

coming from accredited colleges?
A. Yes, but that is also true as between white teachers.
Q. Isn’t it true that a majority of the teachers in the

white high schools are paid $900.00, and a majority of the
elementary schools are paid around $810.00?

A. Well, that would be the case, as to whether or not
there would be a majority or not, I wouldn’t know about
the record. There is quite a wide range of salaries between
various teachers.

Q. And is it your idea that all of the teachers are paid
on the individual basis? A. Yes, sir.

Q. That’s your idea? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you think that if all of them were paid on the

individual basis it could so happen that nine-tenths of the
Negro teachers would fall in the group between $615.00
and $630.00? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Why?
A. Because of the various differences, some of which

[fol. 174] I have mentioned.
Q. You don’t put these differences as to race, do you?
A. No.
Q. There is nothing in your mind that stops you from

thinking that a Negro graduated from Michigan University
would be just as qualified as a white teacher graduated
from Michigan? A. No.

Q. Or as to their teaching ability? A. No.
Q. Or as to their character?
A. You mean if there is nothing involving their char

acter ?
Q. Yes. A. No.
Q. When you come to the recommendation of the Per

sonnel Committee, do you have anything there that would
give you an insight into the qualification of the teacher,
or isn’t it a fact that the Personnel Committee just recog
nizes the teacher’s race and school? A. No.

101

Q. Isn’t that all that is on the report? A. No.
Q. What else is on there?
A. In the first place, the report is made to the Commit

tee by the Superintendent of the Schools.
[fol. 175] Q. I mean a report of the Personnel Committee
to the Board. A. To the Board?

Q. Yes.
A. That gives the name of the teacher and position, the

qualifications, education, experience and such things as
that, and salary, as I recall, the number of degrees and
from what school, and so forth. That is the written part of
the report.

Q. It doesn’t go into the report, all of this you men
tioned ?

A. Yes, sometimes, I don’t know that it does in every
instance.

Q. Directing your attention to the last minutes of the
Board, August 26, 1942, there is a list of candidates
recommended and elected, and I ask you if there is anything
in there about their qualifications.

A. No, I see none. That is not the verbatim Committee
report and doesn’t purport to be report of the Committee,
because the name and the salary and the sheet of the
Committee report from the Committee might contain this
information.

Q. But I am talking about what comes to the Board, not
what comes to the Committee. I am limiting this question
to the Board.

A. Well, I don’t—I don’t believe all that is contained—
it is discussed by the Board at the meeting where they are
[fol. 176] employed, hut I guess it doesn’t get in the actual
minutes about their qualifications.

Q. You discuss their qualifications? A. Yes.
Q. Not of the individual teacher? A. Yes.
Q. Each teacher?
A. Well, the Board does not in every instance, but the

Committee does.
Q. Mr. Reed, what you are trying to do—we are trying

to differentiate between the Committee and the Board.
What I am asking you if in the Board they discuss the
qualifications of each individual teacher.

102

A. Practically we do in some instances. We accept the
report of the Personnel Committee and adopt it.

Q. Then you do not read the qualifications of each
teacher?

A. Frequently we do.
Q. And if you don’t, you receive the recommendations

of the Superintendent?
A. Yes, sir, discuss various individuals.
Q. And their qualifications?
A. Yes, sir, personalities and characteristics and

various other things.
Q. Let us get what you considered in the Personnel

Committee. You considered first, one, the school the in-
[fol. 177] dividual came from, and the school record, is
that correct?

A. I don’t know that is first of all. That is one of the
things.

Q. That is one of the things you discussed. Do you also
discuss experience of the teacher?

A. Yes, or lack of experience.
Q. Or lack of experience? A. Yes.
Q. And do you also discuss the recommendations from

the school where the teacher comes from? The college
where the teacher comes from? A. Yes.

Q. The different recommendations you can get you
discuss. Is that correct?

A. Yes.
Q. What else is taken into consideration?
A. Well, the personality. We consider, of course, we

have a position that is vacant, the type of person required
to fill that vacancy, and, of course, these things are studied
by the Superintendent and recommendation made, and
we discuss these points with the Superintendent, what he
thinks about it and with ourselves.

Q. So, as a matter of fact, you don’t know anything
about the personality of the teacher ?

A. Yes, frequently come to see members of the com-
[fol. 178] mittee.

Q. As a committee or individually?
A. Individually.
Q. So that sitting as a committee, itself, when it is

sitting in its meeting, she never is before it, the candidate?

103

A. Frequently the candidate will visit each member of
the Committee personally as well as the Superintendent.

Q. But is not there at the meeting?
A. Not at the meeting.
Q. As a matter of fact, as to personality of the teacher,

isn’t it a fact you refer that to the Superintendent or
usually leave that to the Superintendent?

A. Yes, I think that is the usual in the majority of the
cases.

Q. What else do you consider besides personality and
other items?

A. Well, age, qualifications, I believe we mentioned
that, position to be filled, their apparent qualifications for
that particular work.

Q. In considering the position to be filled, do you con
sider the salary the person was getting who left the posi
tion? Does that go into your consideration?

A. Yes, naturally, that is to be considered, not necessa
rily to be controlling. We try to consider the basis.

Q. Do you think of anything else that is taken up by the
Committee ?
[fol. 179] A. I don’t recall anything other than we dis
cussed here, for the moment. It is a very informal meeting,
Committee meeting, and we discussed most anything and
everything that we think would have a bearing on matters
or conditions.

Q. How does it happen that you fall into this figure that
we were talking about of $810.00 to $900.00 and the $615.00
to $630.00?

A. Well, in the first place, the District has a certain
amount of money derived from taxation that we can
spend, and that budget, the Finance Committee goes into
that and lets the Board and the Personnel Committee know
about what we have got, and that is divided up the best
we can among the various teachers.

Q. In dividing it up, isn’t it a fact you set aside a less
amount for colored teachers than for white teachers?

A. That is true, but we don’t have so many.
Q. In setting aside the individual’s amount, you set

aside a less amount for the individual teacher?
A. Yes, I think that would tend to be least.
Q. What reason have you for that?

104

A. The individual’s qualifications.
Q. Is there any instance where he comes from a good

school, where the colored teacher is good and—
A. I think we have discussed that with the Superin

tendent.
Q. With the same number of years’ experience?

[fol. 180] A. Yes.
Q. And the same degree? A. Yes.
Q. And teaching the same subject?
A. I don’t recall whether it was exact or not.
Q. And you think there are some teachers, colored

teachers, getting the same as white teachers in the same
bracket? A. Yes, I think so.

Q. What would you say to it that Susie Morris and
twenty-four others in the high school were getting less
than any white teachers?

A. Because these teachers were not as good, as to
educational background is not as good, but I don’t know the
individuals.

Q. Do you have some white, inefficient white teachers
in the school system?

A. I cannot point out particular instances. We have
some not as efficient as others.

Q. You have discussed that? A. Yes.
Q. As a matter of fact, don’t you realize, didn’t you

release a teacher in home economics for inefficiency and let
her resign?

A. I don’t think so, I don’t recall it. Maybe so. I
don’t know.
[fol. 181] Q. Have you taken up in the Personnel Com
mittee the question of white teachers that were just plain
inefficient ?

A. Well, I think we have.
Q. How can you account for the fact that a teacher you

have discussed as inefficient gets more than the twenty-
five teachers in the Dunbar High School?

A. We don’t keep on doing that, we adjust them.
Q. You adjust all of them? A. Yes.
Q. There are several white teachers in the school system

that have less than an A. B. Degree?
A. I think so.
Q. So their teaching ability would compare with a

colored teacher with an A. B. ?

105

A. Oh, probably would be superior in some cases.
Q. You mean a white teacher with no college degree

would be better than a colored teacher with an A. B. Degree
from a colored school?

A. In many instances that would be true.
Q. On what grounds?
A. Qualifications, on many grounds. We have many

excellent teachers, very excellent teachers in the system
who have no degrees at all.

Q. Do you know several with qualifications, you don’t
mean their college training, do you? You mean all of the
items?
[fol. 182] A. That is part of it, of course.

Q. You would say the teacher with no degree at all and
the teacher with no training at all—

A. I didn’t say that.
Q. This is a question I am asking you now. Would

you consider them more efficient than a Negro with a degree
from an accredited school?

A. A white person with no degree and no training?
Q. And no training.
A. Would be a better teacher than what?
Q. Than a Negro with a degree.
A. Would be a better teacher? I wouldn’t answer that,

no training with a person with a degree would probably
be the best instructor, but the fact they have a degree
doesn’t mean they are good teachers if other things are
lacking.

Q. I am talking about the new teachers to the new
system without any past experience. You have no way of
knowing what kind of teachers they will make.

A. No, not absolutely, we have some, no.
Q. Then were you on the committee with a position to

be filled and two applicants, one with a college degree
from an accredited school and one without a college
degree, both with no experience, which would you prefer?

A. I would take the one with the degree.
[fol. 183] Q. And if you hired them both, which would
you pay the highest salary to?

A. Possibly to the one with the degree, that is, as
suming the position to be filled were the same.

Q. The same position, say they are both teaching Eng
lish? A. And the same school also.

106

Q. You might say they are both teaching in the same
type of school.

A. One in the grammar school and one in the high
school?

Q. Well, let’s say one is teaching in the Little Rock
High School and one teaching in Dunbar. Would that
make any difference?

A. Well, it could make a difference.
Q. What would be the difference?
A. The Little Rock High School is a much larger school,

might be.
Q. Suppose one was going to junior high school and

one going to Dunbar, then what?
A. Well, all things being equal, of course, you would

think the person with the degree would be paid some more.
Q. Then take a Negro teacher with an A. B. Degree and

no experience and a white teacher with no degree and no
experience and teaching in an elementary school, would it
be your idea to pay the Negro teacher more than the indi
vidual white teacher teaching in the elementary white
[fol. 184] school?

A. Well, it all depends upon the various things we have
talked about.

Q. If this is true, how is it you have done that in num
bers of instances when Negro teachers with degrees have
been paid less than white teachers with no degree?

A. Well, there are several things that control that. A
degree from some school doesn’t equal a degree from some
other.

Q. I am talking about a teacher from the University of
Kansas. Don’t you think he is entitled to more pay than
a white teacher with no degree at all, on these facts, at
least? A. Possibly so.

Q. Can you explain why he doesn’t get it?
A. Are you asking about a general proposition or indi

vidual case?
Q. I first asked you on a general proposition, and then

I assumed two specific cases. I also can ask you about a
specific case. I am asking you as to Mr. James B. Scott,
who is teaching mathematics in the Dunbar High School
with an A. B. Degree from the University of Kansas, work
ing on a Ph. D. Degree, who only gets $753.25, while a
white teacher by the name of Clayton Elliott, with a B. S.

107

Degree, teaching in the junior high school, with only six
years’ experience gets $1234.25.

A. Well, that comes on down to another detail. This
[fol. 185] man Elliott has been a coach in addition to his
teaching, and various things might enter into that. The
colored man might have more there, if you are going to
assume that everything else is equal.

Q. You know Mr. Elliott?
A. And I don’t know the other fellow.
Q. How about Mr. F. M. Gardner, a white teacher in

the junior high school, with a B. S. Degree, four years’
experience in Little Rock, three elsewhere, who gets
$1260.00, which is just $500.00 more?

A. I cannot explain the difference, I don’t [— ] either of
these, although there are plenty of differences which would
justify the difference in salary.

Q. You fixed these salaries on the Personnel Commit
tee? A. I helped do it.

Q. Well, you don’t know what information you actually
had in mind when that happened, do you?

A. No, not in that individual case.
Q. How much college is fifty-four and a third hours,

how many years of college is that? A. How many years?
Q. Yes.
A. I don’t know.
Q. It is about two, isn’t it? A. Approximately.

[fol. 186] Q. Well, N. F. Tull, with fifty-four and a third
hours, with no degree, teaching in junior high school, with
a pay of $1653.00, which is almost $900.00 more.

A. As I say, I don’t know each one of these. In making
up this—

Q. In making up this salary schedule, how did you make
it up?

A. That is greatly controlled in all these cases by the
recommendation of the Superintendent, of course.

Q. Isn’t it true that since you have been there the sal
aries have gone along on the same level, and you have been
carrying on as it was before?

A. We have made a good many changes and adjust
ments.

Q. Many?
A. Yes. One of the main things the members of the

School Board has to do is to receive complaints from peo
ple who want their salary changed.

108

Q. You have run across several Negro applicants or
teachers in the system who have degrees from accredited
colleges that rank along with the Arkansas schools?

A. We have had some of them.
Q. As a matter of fact, with a majority of the teachers,

don’t they have to be?
A. They come from what they call accredited schools,

but most of those schools we don’t consider as good as
[fol. 187] some of the others. Their education doesn’t
cost them as much.

Q. Do you think the criterion for how much education
you get is what it cost you?

A. No, that’s not true.
Q. Do you think your Committee is better able to rate

the school than the Association of Colleges whose duty it is
to rate schools?

A. No, we have a man from the Arkansas Baptist Col
lege, I think, for instance, a good many, I think, are from
there, and I don’t consider a B. S. from that school as
good as from the University of Arkansas or the University
of Michigan or from Yale.

Q. I am talking about other schools.
A. What schools?
Q. University of Arkansas, or the University of South

ern Cal. A. We don’t have many from those.
Q. You have some from those schools.
A. I don’t recall about all of them.
Q. Do you know you have one from Yale, which is a

pretty good school?
A. No, I didn’t know that, who is he?
Q. Mr. Lewis, the principal of the high s'chool.
A. I didn’t know he was from Yale.
Q. As a matter of fact, you haven’t gone much into the

qualifications of these Negro teachers.
A. As I said awhile ago, that is generally the duty of

[fol. 188] the Superintendent, that is, we accept his recom
mendations.

Q. You don’t know on what basis he makes his recom
mendations, of your own knowledge?

A. I know what he said.
Q. Of your own knowledge, you don’t know what yard

stick he uses. A. Only from what he says.

109

Q. If he uses a yardstick of race or color, you wouldn’t
know it, would you! A. I would not know it.

Mr. Marshall: That is all.

Here the Court was recessed until 9:30 o ’clock A. M.,
September 29th, 1942, at which time the Court re-Convened
pursuant to order for adjournment.

Murray 0 . Reed, still on the stand for
Cross-Examination.

By Mr. Nash:
Q. Mr. Reed, when were you elected to the School

Board?
A. March, 1939, I believe was the school election.
Q. Did you take office at that time, or were you elected

then?
A. The school election, I think was a day or two prior,

or a few days prior to the time I took office.
[fol. 189] Q. Have you been continuously on the School
Board since that date? A. Yes.

Q. In what capacities have you served since you have
been on the School Board?

A. I have served as President, Secretary and Chair
man of the Personnel Committee.

Q. Are you now on the Personnel Committee at this
time? A. Yes, sir.

Q. During the time that you have been a member of
the School Board, have you found that there is a fixed
schedule for salaries? A. No, sir.

Q. Has the School Board ever instructed the Superin
tendent, so far as you know, or any other person, as to any
particular limit or minimum salaries to be used in em
ploying teachers? A. No, sir.

Q. Will you describe the work of the Teachers’ Com
mittee as you have participated in it?

A. Well, the Committee, of course, as you know, has to
do with the Personnel and employing of teachers and re
employing of teachers. We meet practically every month
and some times several times during the month and go
over and consider vacancies or any personnel matter that
[fol. 190] may arise during the year in the employing of
teachers. The Superintendent usually makes the investi

110

gation of that teacher’s education, training and experience
and other qualifications and submits that recommenda
tion to the Committee. The Committee meets and dis
cusses that report and also other information they may
have regarding the applicant. Sometimes, of course, the
applicant visits the members of the Committee, then we
pass on that application and make recommendation to the
Board. I believe that is about the substance of the duty
of the officer.

Q. How carefully do you question the Superintendent
on that recommendation?

A. Well, we consider it very carefully. We question
him about the basis of his recommendation.

Q. How many members are on the School Board?
A. Six.
Q. How many members on the Personnel Committee?
A. Three.
Q. How many members are on the Finance Committee?
A. Three.
Q. Is there any overlapping of members from one Com

mittee to the other? A. No.
Q. So that the School Board, then, is divided into two

committees ?
[fol. 191] A. That is right.

Q. As a practical expediency? A. That is right.
Q. How careful does the School Board discuss the

recommendation of the Teachers’ Committee?
A. Well the Board, frequently, other members of the

Board, I mean other members of the Board other than
members of the Personnel Committee frequently ask ques
tions with reference to the qualifications and experience,
just generally, about the persons that appear on the Com
mittee report. Of course, it is not discussed as fully as it
is in the Personnel Committee meeting. They do inquire
into the Committee report.

Q. During the time that you have been a member of the
Teachers’ Committee, do you recall that the Superin
tendent recommended a specific salary for a specific appli
cant and has stated that it is based on color?

A. No.
Q. Do you recall any o'ccasion on which the Teachers’

Committee has refused to follow the recommendation of
the Superintendent on the ground of color? A. No, sir.

I l l

Q. Do you recall any occasion on which the School
Board, itself, has failed, they have refused and failed to
follow the recommendation of the Committee or the Super-
[fol. 192] intendent on the ground of color? A. No, sir.

Q. Has the question of race or color ever been dis
cussed by the Teachers’ Committee!

A. Not to my recollection.
Q. Has it ever been discussed in the Board meeting that

you attended?
A. Not prior to the filing of this suit. I presume that’s

what you refer to.
Q. In selecting an applicant as a teacher, what is the

basis of your consideration?
A. State the question again, please.
Q. In selecting an applicant as a teacher, what is the

basis of your consideration?
A. Well, the qualification of the applicant for the par

ticular type of job applied for.
Q. Elaborate a bit on that.
A. You mean on the qualifications?
Q. Just what you mean by qualifications.
A. That would be his or her training-, experience as a

teacher, education, the school or university or college from
which they come to us, their personality, their apparent
ability, and qualifications to perform the particular duties
of the position applied for, their age, and various other
things that might enter into the qualifications of a teacher,
[fol. 193] Their character and recommendations and
things of that sort.

Q. In fixing the salary for a specific teacher, what do
you have in mind?

A. Well, of course, the duty to be fulfilled, the type of
position and qualifications would enter into that.

Q. Do you consider the question of color as an element
in fixing salary? A. No, sir.

Q. Does the Committee, so far as you have been able
to observe? A. No, sir.

Q. Does the School Board, so far as you have been
able to observe? A. No, sir.

Q. What is the practice, if there is one, of the School
Board, or the Finance Committee in setting aside money
for the purpose of employing teachers? Do you know?

112

A. Well, I know generally. We have a certain amount
of fixed revenue and other revenue for the School District,
and the Finance Committee meets and makes up the
budget, certain parts of that budget being set aside for
teachers’ salaries and certain part for capital outlay,
maintenance, and various sub-divisions that make up the
budget, which comes to the Board for approval.
[fol. 194] Q. You mentioned a certain sum for teachers?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. That broken down into white and colored teachers?
A. No, sir.
Q. Just one lump sum?
A. That’s my understanding.
Q. Do you know of any particular sum that is set aside

and designated for the use of employing white teachers
only? A. No.

Q. Do you know of any sum set aside to be used in
the employing of colored teachers only? A. No, sir.

Q. If two candidates did present themselves for elec
tion to the position of teacher, and in the judgment, in
your judgment they were equally qualified in all respects,
in all of those intangibles which you have mentioned and
teaching the same subjects in the same character of school
and the only difference between them was one was white
and one colored teacher, would you be willing to pay them
the same salaries? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you recall any time since you have been on the
School Board that you have found two applicants who are
equal in the judgment of the Committee?

A. No, sir, I don’t recall two.
[fol. 195] Q. You have been asked to compare different
teachers. In comparing a colored teacher who has a degree
with a white teacher and no degree, and on the basis of
comparing them only for teachers, what significance would
you give to the fact one has a degree?

A. Well, it is a little hard to answer as to what signifi
cance. Of course, there would be some regard given to it.
I don’t know exactly what you mean.

Q. Does it necessarily mean that the degree denotes
the better teacher as a teacher? A. No, sir.

Q. Your experience as a member of the School Board,
have you found that there are good teachers in our system
who have no degree? A. Yes, sir.

113

Q. Is that true with one race as with the other ?
A. That is right.
Q. I believe you were asked to compare James B.

Scott, a teacher of mathematics in the Dunbar High School,
with Clayton Elliott, a teacher of mathematics, I believe,
in one of the junior highs, white junior high, the white
teacher receives a substantially higher salary. Do you
happen to know either one of these teachers personally?

A. I know Mr. Elliott personally.
[fob 196] Q. Do you know what he does besides teach
ing, if anything?

A. Yes, my understanding is that he is a coach, boys’
adviser, and quite a bit of additional duties to his regular
teaching.

Q. Does that take extra time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know whether James B. Scott performs any

additional duties?
A. I don’t know, I think he does not, but I am not

positive about that.
Q. In fixing salaries, does the School Board and does

the Teachers’ Committee take into consideration any extra
duties to be performed by the applicant?

A. Yes, sir, extra time and extra qualifications, various
things, they enter into that, that would justify a higher sal
ary for one over another.

Q. You were asked to compare a number of other teach
ers, one I believe, James B. Scott with N. F. Tull. Do you
know Mr. Tull personally? A. I believe not.

Q. Are you in a position to make a critical analysis
of all of the teachers and their salaries in our public school
system ?

A. I don’t think so, I can make a general analysis, but
we leave the greater part of that to the Superintendent,
[fol. 197] I don’t believe I could make a critical analysis
of all of the teachers.

Q. In that connection, what is the general function of
the School Board?

A. In connection with the employing of teachers, or
what connection?

Q. No, what is the general function of the members of
the School Board as such?

8—12,887

114

A. Well, the School Board is a policy making Board,
and we necessarily delegate to the Superintendent and
principals and other employees the detail duties of han
dling such matters as this.

Q. Does any School Board member, so far as you know,
have time to go fully into, or, to a critical analysis of the
school teachers and their salaries?

A. No, sir, we haven’t that time.
Q. Does the School Board require reports of the Super

intendent on that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does he file such reports with the School Board?
A. Yes, sir, files various reports.
Q. Are these reports merely filed?
A. No, sir, they are gone over and studied by the Board

individually and sometimes as a whole and discussed, al
ways sent and mailed to, I believe these various reports
[fol. 198] are mailed or delivered to the individual mem
bers of the Board at their offices.

Q. Is that before the meeting?
A. Yes, sir, usually.
Q. Do you then discuss that at the meeting?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Take this matter of employing teachers. Do you

recall any occasion where the School Board has employed
teachers at a higher salary than that recommended by the
Superintendent? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you remember specific cases?
A. No, sir, I remember several cases during the time

I have been on the Board, hut I do not believe I can point
out the specific names.

Q. Were these occasions on which the Committee
recommended a higher salary?

A. Well, it was an occasion, if I recall, that the Super
intendent recommended a salary, and the Committee, in
discussing, recommended some higher figure and that was,
in turn, adopted by the Board.

Q. Suppose the Superintendent recommended to the
Committee a white teacher new to the system for the first
time and recommended a salary of $830.00. Would it be
the disposition of the Teachers’ Committee to lower it to
$810.00? A. No, sir.
[fol. 199] Q. Suppose the salary recommended was
$800.00. What would be the disposition of the Committee
to do with that? A. To leave it at that figure.

115

Q. Suppose a colored teacher new to the system was
recommended at a figure of $600.00. How would the Com
mittee consider such a recommendation?

A. Probably accept it.
Q. And if the recommendation was for some figure, say

$645.00, what would be the disposition of the Committee?
A. To accept it.
Q. In accepting these recommendations, do you ques

tion the Superintendent as to how he arrives at his figure ?
[ - ]
Mr. Nash: I believe that is all.

Redirect Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Mr. Reed, you are a practicing attorney here in
Little Rock? Is that correct? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is it not true that when the recommendations are
made from the Superintendent to the Personnel Commit
tee the individual teachers are designated as to their race?

A. No, sir.
Q. They are designated as to schools?
A. Sometimes, usually I believe the vacancy is shown,

[fol. 200] certain vacancy in certain school.
Q. And do the members of the Committee know which

schools are white and which are colored?
A. Yes, most of them in the latter days.
Q. Do you?
A. I think I know most of them. I don’t think I could

tell you all of the colored schools.
Q. Is it not true that you can look down the list of

teachers as recommended by the Superintendent and pick
out the white and colored teachers?

A. Yes, probably could by looking at the school beside
the name.

Q. And is it not true that on the report of the Personnel
Committee to the Board prior to this year that the teachers
were labeled “ Negro” who were Negro?

A. I don’t think I recall specifically about that. May
have been in certain circumstances and certain circum
stances not.

Q. Well, as the Chairman of the Personnel Committee,
is it not true that you went over the report of the Person
nel Committee before they were made to the Board?

116

A. Yes, sir.
Q. I show you the minutes of the Board for May the

29th, 1940, report of the Committee on Teachers and
Schools, which I understand is the committee, and show you
[fol. 201] the promotion of Herbert H. Denton, shown in
this as a colored teacher at $706.00.

A. Uh-huh. What is the question?
Q. Is it not true that in the report they do designate

teachers as to their races?
A. Sometimes, not every time.
Q. Would you say that usually they designated them as

to race?
A. I don’t think that is the usual rule. I think it is just

opposite the school, that is about all that is necessary.
Q. I show you the minutes of June 26, 1940, and ask

you as to whether or not the Negro teachers are not desig
nated as such, those newly appointed on that date.

A. I see one, I don’t know whether there are others
colored there or not. I see only one on that report.

Q. Well, I show you number 11 where it says, “ Ercell
A. Tucker, Geraldine Dubisson and Earxie Nichols at
$615.00 each, additional teachers in the Negro Schools.”

A. Yes.
Q. Do you know by that they were Negroes?
A. Yes, but they are not designated as one by one,

designated as “ Negro” .
Q. Is it not true that all of the teachers appointed to

Negro schools are Negroes?
[fol. 202] A. That is right,

Q. So if the report designated the teacher for a Negro
school, you know that teacher is a Negro?

A. That’s our understanding, yes.
Q. You don’t know of any Negro teachers being ap

pointed to white schools, or vice versa, do you?
A. That is right.
Q. Going to the next minutes, July the 31,1940—
A. You probably know that is prohibited by law in this

State.
Q. I show you the minutes of July the 31st, 1940, which is

the next time teachers were appointed, and ask you as to
whether or not the teachers are designated as to race.

A. There seems to be no whites, they are all Negroes.

117

Q. But they are labeled as Negroes?
A. One, two, three—well, no— only one— I don’t know

whether that is all—two of them are clerks and not
teachers.

Q. Doesn’t that say Frances Donald Polk and in
parenthesis it says “ Negro” ?

A. It doesn’t show it is a teacher or clerk.
Q. But it says “ Negro” ?
A. Yes.
Q. And it says Hazel Burton, Negro Clerk?
A. Yes, sir.

[fol. 203] Q. Evelyn Danis Tatum, Negro clerk?
A. That’s right.
Q. And the next meeting after the July meeting would

be the August meeting, would it not? A. That is right.
Q. Reading from the minutes of August the 28th, 1940,1

show you the list of new teachers appointed at that time
and ask you whether or not they are designated as to race.

A. I see one designated with “ col.” .
Q. Now is there any Negro teacher on that list?
A. Yes, I see one I think is a colored teacher.
Q. Which one is that? Is that not up in the list of the

re-appointed teachers, the list you are reading from now,
in this list here are those who are re-appointed?

A. I expect that is right. Capitola Wilson, new, and I
suppose she is Negro. It says “ new” , and she was a new
teacher.

Q. The report I am reading from, from the report of
the day following.

A. I see one colored there. It says “ col.” .
Q. And the rest are white? Is that not true?
A. Let me see. I am not sure, I don’t know whether

they are all white or not. Some of them are white.
Q. Can you tell by the salaries that they are white?
A. No.

[fol. 204] Q. Do you know since you have been on there
of any Negro teacher new to the system that is being paid
$992.00? A. In what school?

Q. Any Negro teacher in any school that is getting—
that is offered an entrance salary of $992.00.

A. I don’t recall that exact, no.
Q. Well, getting that much.

118

A. I don’t recall, I can’t tell yon about the various
items.

Q. Isn’t it true that in the last enrolled list of teachers
put opposite the name of some of them is “ colored” and
nothing opposite the names of other ones, the other ones
are white ?

A. Well, where there is one in the group and the other
not marked it might mean that, but I see in this list just
one which I know is colored and is marked colored.

Q. But that is not marked in the list of the new
teachers?

A. I don’t know that that would make any difference,
whether new teachers.

Q. In the report you make from your Committee, the
Personnel Committee when you list some teachers as
Negroes or where such of the other teachers have nothing
opposite the name, isn’t it true that the teachers with no
race opposite the name are white and those with “ Negro”
are Negroes?

A. In general, that is true, but might not be in every
instance.
[fol. 205] Q. Did you prepare these reports of the Com
mittee ?

A. I do not do the actual writing, but the clerk does.
Q. When you were Chairman, did you go over the

reports? A. Yes.
Q. And prepare them?
A. Not actually prepare them.
Q. Did you present them? A. Yes.
Q. You are familiar with what is in the report?
A. Yes.
Q. I am asking you whether or not in the report

whether it designates some teachers with “ Negro” opposite
the name and others with no race opposite the name, is it
not true that those with no race opposite the name are
white teachers?

A. I imagine that would be the case, but I am not certain
it would be in all cases.

Q. Why did you put races opposite some of them,
opposite the Negro teachers?

A. I didn’t put it there, myself, I suppose the clerk puts
jt there for their own assistance, to show where they go.

119

Q. Why is it in the report you presented as Chairman
of the Personnel Committee Negro teachers are designated
there as “ Negro” or “ colored” ?

A. That is done there at the office of the Board for the
[fol. 206] econvenience of the clerical staff to keep up
with teachers, where they go and who they are.

Q. But this report is the report that goes to the
Board?

A. That is right. It is made up by the secretarial staff
at the School Board.

Q. Is it not for the purpose of letting the Board know
that for their information?

A. It may be, or for their own information. I think
that is more for their own information.

Q. You mean for the Committee?
A. No, for the clerks and secretary there at the Board

office.
Q. Is it not true that the Personnel Committee, in put

ting on a teacher, knows what race the teacher is?
A. I think so, yes.
Q. And is it not true that the Board in passing upon a

teacher knows the race of the teacher in passing upon him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you deny the question of race comes into some

consideration at all in the fixing of salaries of individual
teachers?

A. Well, it, I think it comes into consideration to some
extent, in the mind, probably in the experience of whatever
you call in the Superintendent in recommending teachers.

Q. Can you deny that the question of race comes into
consideration at all in the minds of the Personnel
[fol. 207] Committee?

A. Well, we never considered or discussed race.
Q. But you do know when you are talking about an

individual teacher what race that teacher is?
A. Yes.
Q. And the same is true for the Board? A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Reed, you testified a minute ago as to result of

a question by Mr. Nash that in your experience you have
never come across two teachers with the same qualifications,
character, experience and so forth.

A. That is right.

120

Q. And yet practically all of the white teachers get
over $810.00 to $900.00 a year. How can and how is it that
they all fall in the same category?

A. I think I can explain that this way; the best explana
tion of that, however, is the Superintendent of the Schools
is experienced in dealing and working with teachers, white
teachers and colored. He finds that we have a certain
amount of money, and the budget is so much, and in his
dealing with teachers he finds he has to pay a certain
minimum to some white teachers qualified to teach, a
teacher that would suit in the school, and he also finds that
he has to pay around a certain minimum amount in order
to get that teacher, the best he can do about it is around
[fol. 208] $800.00 to $810.00 to $830.00, whatever it may be
he has to pay that in order to pay that white teacher that
minimum amount, qualified to do that work. Now, in his
experience with colored teachers, he finds he has to pay
a certain minimum amount to get a colored teacher quali
fied to do the work. He finds that about $630.00, whatever
it may be.

Q. So that the white teacher and colored teacher of
practically identical background, qualification and ex
perience in applying for the job, since it is the general
understanding that you can get Negro teachers cheaper,
it would be the idea of the Committee to offer the Negro
less than they offer the white teacher?

A. Yes, he would offer the white teacher if the white
teacher would accept it, he would frequently offer less
than $810.00, but they don’t accept it.

Q. Is it not true that on the application blanks of
several of the white teachers there is a figure which they
all will accept as entrance salary, which is less than you
actually pay them?

A. State that again.
Q. Isn’t it true on the application of several of the white

teachers who have been appointed there is a statement of
least salary they will accept, less than they are paid?

A. I could not testify. I don’t see those applications or
[fol. 209] read them very frequently. They are filed at
the Superintendent’s office.

Q. Now going back to the other point which you did not
finish as to those two applicants equally qualified, and all

121

other of the intangibles as equal as you can get them, and
it is your understanding you can get the qualified white
teacher for $810.00 and no less, and it is your understand
ing you can get a Negro teacher for $615.00, so the idea of
the Personnel Committee is to offer the Negro teacher
$615.00 and the white teacher $810.00.

A. Sometimes we offer them more, sometimes less, but
usually we offer them around that figure. I remember
several instances in which we have paid more. I can’t point
out the specific case, but I know there have been such cases.

Q. Well, Mr. Reed, under this system is it not true that
because you can get colored teachers for this the colored
teachers have to suffer for that?

A. No, I don’t think that’s true.
Q. Well, why is it that you would offer them less because

of the fact that you could get them for less?
A. They are willing to accept it, and we are limited by

our financial structure, the taxation is limited, and we have
to do the best we can.

Q. Well, if it is on the basis—
[fol. 210] A. And the Negro can live cheaper, and there
are various reasons.

Q. Mr. Reed, where did you get the information that
gave you the opinion that the Negro can live for less than
the white person?

A. Oh, there are many evidences here in the city.
Q. As a matter of fact, the Negroes for clothes pay the

same price as anybody else—
A. Probably so.
Q. Well, do you want to place this the reason for offer

ing less salary on an economic basis or saving money for
the District?

A. No, I am not placing it anywhere.
Q- l am trying to find out how you arrive a.t this figure

of offering the Negro less because he will take it.
A. We probably would in many cases offer the white

teacher less if he would take it—it was the Superintendent,
I know, that used to have to come and tell the Finance
Committee that teachers wanted a raise.

Q. On this bargaining business, the bargaining starts
at two different figures between the white and the Negro,
on the bargaining basis.

A. No, not on the part of the school authorities—

122

Q. Have you ever bargained with colored at $810.00, or
around that figure?
[fol. 211] A. I understand the Superintendent did in
the days of the depression, but I wasn’t a member of the
Board at that time.

Q. So you don’t know about that?
A. They came in to see me about an adjustment of

things, the teachers claimed they were employed at lower
figures than others.

Q. What I am trying to get at is since you have been
on the Board, since 1939, do you know of any instance
where the Personnel Committee has been bargaining in
their own mind? A. No.

Q. As a matter of fact, when you start to discuss the
salary item, the white items start with the District around
$810.00.

A. Well, that is handled by the Superintendent.
Q. But as I understand you testified there were several

instances where you raised it, in several instances.
A. We did.
Q. And in all those instances where you bargained with

the white teacher, it was from $810.00 up?
A. I don’t know that it started at $810.00.
Q. Do you recall any specific case where you offered a

white teacher less than $810.00?
A. I think we have some, but I don’t remember that

specifically.
[fol. 212] Q. Has there been a white teacher offered
less than $810.00 since you have been on the Committee?

A. I don’t recall any individual case.
Q. If you can get Negro teachers who are qualified for

less salaries than you can get white teachers, why is it
that you don’t hire colored teachers for white schools?

A. That is forbidden by law by the constitution. We
have to maintain separate Negro and white schools. That
is one of the main reasons, and there are many others, of
course.

Q. Do you remember the petition filed by the Negro
teachers in May of 1939 for equalization of salaries?

A. I remember some discussion of a letter, but I don’t
remember the petition, itself. I think that was probably
referred by the office to the Finance Committee and the
Committee made some report to the Board that no raises or

adjustments could be made during that period, but I don’t
recall that ever coming to the Board for action.

Q. And another one in 1941?
A. No, I don’t remember that.
Q. You do not remember that?
A. No, I don’t think it came to the Board for official

action that I recall.
Q. If you had more money in the school budget, would

you equalize salaries and pay the Negro teachers the same
[fol. 213] salary you pay white teachers?

A. You mean the Negro teachers?
Q. That fall in the same bracket as the particular white

teachers.
A. Well, I don’t exactly know what you mean by that

question. You mean just go out there and increase them
now?

Q. I am talking about the new teachers new to the
system. A. New teachers.

Q. Where they both have A. B. Degrees, no experience,
both from the same school.

A. We would follow the same practice we have been
following.

Q. As a matter of fact, you cannot give me the name
of any Negro that gets over $810.00 as an entrance salary,
with one exception. A. No, I can’t recall.

Q. Without any exceptions.
A. I can’t recall any.
Q. You do not appoint any teachers that do not appear

in the minutes?
A. Sometimes we do ahead of that, but we always con

firm it.
Q. So if the minutes show that since 1939 there have

been no Negro teachers appointed at a salary of more than
$675.00, then that is the truth of what has actually hap
pened in the schools? A. I think that is right.
[fol. 214] Mr. Murray—I mean Mr. Reed, I show you
plaintiff’s for identification, which is the application of
Miss Rhoda Wharry, and direct your attention to page 3.
Will you give the figure she gives as the least entrance
salary she will accept?

A. $800.00. That appears here.
Q. As a matter of fact, when she was appointed, was

she not given more than that?

123

124

A. I don’t know. I see she says there her present sal
ary is $900.00. I don’t know where that comes from. I
don’t know whether it is in this system or not.

Q. But she says she is willing to accept $800.00?
A. That’s what appears here on this application.

Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, I ask your in
dulgence for just a moment. (Looks through records.)

Q. I show you the minutes of August 21st, 1941, and
ask you to state whether or not in this list of teachers ap
pointed for the first time for the Little Rock System there
appears the name of Rhoda E. Wharry.

A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what salary was she paid in the beginning to

teach in the system? A. $900.00 appears here.
[fol. 215] Q. Is that not the figure that she shows here
at that time?

A. I don’t know if she is new or whether she had been
in the system previously. I see on that report she said
$900.00 was her present salary, and Avhether she had been
out and re-entering or not I don’t know'.

Q. Showing you the application blank—
A. Apparently she was in the system somewhere.
Q. Does it now7 show7 in her application that she was

teaching in Malden, Missouri?
A. Is shows Malden, Missouri, 1935-41.
Q. So she wasn’t teaching in Little Rock?
A. That is right.
Q. So it shows she wras a new teacher in Little Rock?
A. Apparently she was receiving $900.00 there.
Q. But apparently from your application blank she

agreed to teach for $800.00.
A. Apparently so. I might say this as an additional

answer to that question that frequently applicants change
their minds as to the amount they will accept after they
file their applications. These applications may be on file
for many months and when finally employed or from a
discussion wdth the Superintendent they change their mind
as to the amount.

Q. But you don’t know that is true in this case?
A. I do not in this case.

[fol. 216] Mr. Marshall: That is all.

125

Recross Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Mr. Reed, do you know whether the School Board
is required to make an annual report to the County Exam
iner? A. That is my understanding.

Q. Do you know on what type of form that report is
required to be made?

A. Well, I don’t believe I can explain just what type.
Q. Do you know whether these forms are prepared by

the School Board, itself, or whether they are prepared hv
the County or State?

A. I believe they are, I am not positive, hut I believe
they are prepared by the County or State.

Q. Do you know whether the forms require the desig
nation of the teacher by race and color?

A. No, I don’t know. I cannot recall exactly about that.
Q. Do you know of any reason why the Board, itself, in

the employment of teachers would want to know the color
of the teacher?

A. Well, except as to what school the teacher might
he assigned to. We need to know for that reason.

Q. Are you able to recall the facts relative to every
teacher whom the School Board has employed since you
[fol. 217] have been on the Board?

A. No, sir, not all of the facts in connection with it.
Q. Do you recall any teacher employed at a salary of

$615.00 equal in ability to any teacher employed at a higher
figure? A. No.

Q. Do you know whether it is the practice of the Super
intendent, of the Teachers’ Committee or the School Board
to employ any specific teacher at the figure that she says
she will take?

A. Well, I don’t know that that would be a practice.
I don’t see these applications and amount they say they
will take very often, so I cannot say.

Q. Now, the applicant specifies a salary which is out of
line with the ability of that applicant in the judgment of
the Committee, what is the attitude of the Committee?

A. We would not pay the salary, of course, if it is out
of line with what we think their abilities are.

Q. If the applicant specifies a salary lower than the
Committee thinks her ability justifies, does the Committee
make the practice of paying the amount requested?

126

A. No, not in every ease.
Q. Regardless of the amount of money which the School

Board may have on hand for the payment of salaries, what
is the attitude of the Committee in paying salaries where
[fol. 218] in the judgment of the Committee the applicants
are to be of equal teaching ability?

A. We try to pay them about the same if they equal.
Of course, we pay all we can, giving regard to the amount
of money we have. We try to pay as much as the budget
will allow, all teachers about the same in accordance with
their abilities.

Mr. Nash: I believe that is all.
The witness was excused.

Susie C. Morris, sworn as a witness in her own behalf,
testified as follows on

Direct Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Your full name and address.
A. Susie E. Cowan Morris.
Q. You will have to speak a little louder.
A. Susie C. Morris, 1518 Cross Street.
Q. And you are the plaintiff in this case?
A. I am.
Q. Miss Morris, when you came into the system, you

came in under the name of Susie E. Cowan?
A. That is correct.
Q. And you are the same individual?

[fol. 219] A. I am.
Q. How old are you, Miss Morris? A. Thirty-three.
Q. Where were you born? A. Eudora, Arkansas.
Q. And what occupation did your father follow?
A. Teaching.
Q. In Eudora? A. In Eudora.
Q. Is it not true he was principal of the school there?
A. He was.
Q. And the occupation of your mother? A. Teacher.
Q. In Eudora? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did there come a time when you moved to Little

Rock, Arkansas? A. Yes, sir.

127

Q. About when was that?
A. My parents moved here about 1923.
Q. And at that time where were you attending school?
A. Toulon, called Tupelo College, 1923.
Q. That is located in Mississippi? A. Yes, it is.
Q. That is part of a high school?

[fol. 220] A. Yes, it is.
Q. And did you complete the high school training

there? A. Yes, I did.
Q. Then where did you go to school?
A. Talladega College, Alabama.
Q. And you started there what year? A. 1926.
Q. Is Talladega College accredited by the Southeim

Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools?
A. Yes, it is an accredited school.
Q. Did you graduate from Talladega?
A. Yes, with honors.
Q. In what? A. In English.
Q. What year was that? A. 1930.
Q. Then Avhat did you do?
A. I taught in Howard County, Arkansas.
Q. What was the name of the school?
A. Tollett Training School and then the town school

at Nashville.
Q. And you taught there one year, about?
A. ’30 to ’32. Taught English and history.
Q. And then what did you do?
A. I taught at Lincoln Academy in North Carolina

[fol. 221] under the American Missionary Association,
School Association.

Q. Is that what is known as one of the Mountain
Schools? A. Yes, it is.

Q. You Avere there A\diat years? A. 1934-35.
Q. What did you do during the summer of 1935?
A. I went to the Atlanta School of Advanced Educa

tion.
Q. And did you take subjects in that school?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What subjects did you take?
A. Practical observation in teaching, progressive class

room procedure in secondary school, methods in teaching
English.

1 2 8

Q. And all of them are in connection with your regu
lar teaching! A. Yes, it was.

Q. How many hours did you complete?
A. I completed six hours that summer, two semester

hours for each grade.
Q. What were your grades?
A. I made two A ’s and a B.
Q. Can you give those as to subject matter?
A. Practical observation in methods of teaching—A,

classroom procedure in secondary schools—A, and methods
[fol. 222] in teaching English—B.

Q1. Is the Atlanta University an accredited school, ac
credited by the Southern Association of Colleges and
Secondary Schools? A. Yes, it is.

Q. And when you left Atlanta, where did you go then?
A. Came to Little Rock.
Q. You came to Little Rock? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then what happened?
A. I signed a contract to teach in this system before

I left for California. I went to California the latter
part of the summer, and I had signed a contract to teach
here.

Q. Prior to that time? A. Yes.
Q. And had you had a discussion with Superintendent

Hall before that time? A. Yes.
Q. Now, Miss Morris, can you say definitely as to

whether or not Mr. Hall came to your house, to your
home and asked you to accept a position in the Little
Rock School System?

A. Mr. Hall made no personal visit to my home. Mr.
Hamilton came to my home to see me.

Q. What position does Mr. Hamilton hold in the school
system? A. Supervisor.
[fol. 223] Q. Did you discuss teaching?

A. We discussed teaching, and the contract was sent
to me early in the summer, and I refused to sign it.

Q. Why did you refuse to sign it?
A. Because of the salary.
Q. What salary was offered to you?
A. Before I came here, I was offered the job because

the Chairman of the English Department recommended
me, and a member of my family was given an appli
cation and contract and it was sent to me, and I was told
at the time that my salary would be $60.00—

129

Q. You were told—who told you that!
A. The information was relayed to me that it would be

$60.00.
Q. And you refused it!
A. Yes, sir, I refused to sign the contract.
Q. Then you had the discussion with Mr. Hamilton!
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Why did you then sign it!
A. I had several discussions with Mr. Hall, and I was

told my experience made no difference in the entrance
salary here, and so he agreed to pay me $68.00.

Q. So the figure of $840.00 as the lowest amount you
would accept was placed on that blank application after
you had received the information from Mr. Hamilton and
[fol. 224] others as to the salary level!

A. Yes, sir.
Q. As a matter of fact, you would be living here with

your parents, I mean you would be living in Little Rock,
which is your home, is that true! A. That is right.

Q. And formerly you had been living away from home!
A. That is right.
Q. What position were you employed at!
A. Chairman of the English Department.
Q. And you held that position for how long!
A. I am still Chairman of the English Department.

I was not Chairman for one year because when I came
here two teachers, two high school teachers were away
studying.

Q. And you have been Chairman of the English De
partment since that time! A. Yes.

Q. And occupy that position at the present time!
A. I do.
Q. Do you follow a course of study in your teaching!
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Where do you get the course of study from!
A. Well, the course of study is probably from the

School Board, but it was given to me when I came. How- •
ever, we have revised the Course. Last year we wrote a
[fol. 225] new course of study.

Q. You followed the course of study as—
A. Yes, sir.

9—12,887

130

Q. As given you by the authorities here!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you, in your regular routine of teaching, do you

hold a study hall? A. Yes, I do.
Q. And how many pupils are in there?
A. I guess from 300 to 500.
Q. How long have you held that position?
A. One period.
Q. One period? A. Every day.
Q. And the rest of the time you are teaching English?
A. Yes, we have one free period.
Q. One free period a week? A. Free—every day.
Q. Do you have any extra-curricula work?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Give us some of the jobs you do in extra-curricula

work.
A. Me being Chairman of the English Department is

extra, and I am supervisor of the Bear Cat.
Q. And what is the Bear Cat?
A. The student publication.

[fol. 226] Q. What is your duty with that?
A. I confer with the sub-chairman of the English De

partment—
Q. You speak of the English Department. You do

most of that work? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that not true? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And in addition to that, you have general super

vision of the student paper? A. Yes, that is right.
Q. And so is it not true that one of the reasons for

having a student paper is to keep up the good will in the
community as well as in the school, itself?

A. I should think so—I am—
Q. What other extra-curricula work do you have charge

of?
A. I am Chairman of the Public Relations Committee.
Q. And what is the job of that committee?
A. Well, we try to interpret the s'chool to the com

munity.
Q. And how do you go about it?
A. By publicizing school activities that the parents

would be interested in and then we plan to contact organi
zations here that would be of service to us in putting over
our program.

131

Q. This is all after school hours?
A. Yes, sir, most of it would have to be carried on

afterwards.
[fol. 227] Q. What else do you do?

A. I am Co-chairman of the Committee on Curricula
Revision.

Q. What is the duty of that Committee?
A. We study trends of education and try to adapt

our curriculum to the trend.
Q. To keep abreast of the new techniques?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What else ?
A. I am Secretary and Treasurer of the Athletic As

sociation.
Q. What is your duty in that position?
A. I have complete control of all of the tickets for

the games and association, in fact, I handled about
$3,000.00 last year in helping to keep up the financial
program.

Q. Do you have time to do any other extra-curricula
work? A. I don’t have very much time.

Q. Don’t you have any committee you work on?
A. The Public Relations (stops), and last year I was

Chairman of the Senior Committee. I had charge of all
the commencement activities at the school.

Q. You had charge of all that?
A. Yes, sir, and I have a committee, too, I was Chair

man of the Senior Committee.
Q. You were Chairman of the Senior Committee?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you had charge of the graduation plans and

so forth?
[fol. 228] A. Yes, sir, everything.

Q. At the last year’s graduation?
A. I had charge of the commencement exercises.
Q. You had charge of the commencement exercises?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did Mr. Scobee attend those exercises?
A. I am sure he did, most of the Board members did.
Q. Did Mr. Scobee say anything about those commence

ment exercises?
A. I think Mr. Hamilton said to others he was very

well pleased.

132

Q. Oh, Mr. Hamilton said that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. During your teaching career here in Little Rock,

have you talked to parents about their pupils?
A. Oh, yes, quite often.
Q. Do you consider it also your duty to work in the

homes of these people and help them as much as possible?
A. In many instances where home visits are necessary,

I do a little of that.
Q. During your career here, have you had any com

plaints by any parents, either to you or to the school offi
cials ?

A. So far as I know, there has been only one complaint.
Q. What was that complaint?
A. It had to do with the purchase of textbooks. I got

[fol. 229] permission from Mr. Hall to introduce a new
text in the 12-A course in literature, and we had difficulty
buying it in the hook store here because it is not used in
the Little Rock High School, and I made the provision to
order the book through the library so we could get the
library discount, and the librarian quoted the price to us
from her catalogue, and the money was sent directly to
the librarian and the books ordered through the librarian,
but it seems the company to whom she sent the order and
the books were cheaper than they quoted, and it seems
there was one pupil who did not report this to his parents,
and they reported to Mr. Scobee by letter.

Q. Was there an investigation?
A. Yes, sir, and I went to Mr. Scobee’s office, and in

his office explained it, and he asked me to write an explana
tion, and I did.

Q. As a matter of fact, did Mr. Hamilton not tell you
everything was clear?

A. Yes, sir, he mentioned it in a jocular manner.
Q. And is it not true that this particular parent has

reported several teachers from Dunbar?
A. I understand she has.
Q. Are you a member of a church in Little Rock?
A. Yes, sir.

[fol. 230] Q. What church?
A. Mt. Zion Baptist Church. I have been singing in

the choir since I was just a little kid.
Q. Do you also belong to the Y. W. C. A.?
A. Yes, sir.

133

Q. What divisions ?
A. The Business and Professional Women’s Club.
Q. Do you also work in the Community Chest?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Now, do you belong to any national organization of

college women?
A. I belong to the national Sorority Delta Sigma Theta

composed of college women.
Q. It is for Negro women? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that is on a national scale, it covers the coun

try? A. Yes, it does.
Q. Can you name a group of the members of the soror

ity?
A. Mrs. Mary McLeoud Betliune, former President of

the National Confederation of Negro Women’s Clubs, and
President of Corkmon-Bethune College in Florida, and
Director of Negro N. Y. A.

Q. And Sara Rogers? A. Yes.
[fol. 231] Q. Is it not a fact you hold an office?

A. I am Chairman of the Committee on Chapters.
Q. For the entire organization?
A. For the entire organization.
Q. And it is part of your duties of the job to accredit

schools, so far as the sorority is concerned, as to whether
or not you will have a chapter there? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you hold an office in the local chapter of that
sorority?

A. I .am president of the local chapter.
Q. Do you know Mr. Scobee? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The Superintendent?
A. Not personally, I don’t.
Q. How many times has he been in your classroom?
A. Once.
Q. When was that?
A. In Alay when he was visiting.
Q. May of this year? A. Alay of this year.
Q. That was after the answer was filed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And about how long did Air. Scobee stay there?

[fol. 232] A. Ten minutes, I can be exact. It was 2:05
to 2:15.

Q. He was there for ten minutes? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And who was with him?

134

A. Mr. Hamilton and Mr. Lewis.
Q. And do you remember what you were doing when

he was in there?
A. Yes, sir. I remember because that was his only visit.

I was teaching 12-A literature, at the time he was in there
I was attempting to introduce a lesson for the next day
and I had finished the assignment for that day, and I was
teaching ...................................................... which is pretty
difficult, and I had assigned several children to do research
work. It is very difficult. I had the students to make re
ports from the library. They made these reports, and I
attempted, I had requested the students to take notes in
order to do this library work. It is not definitely an Eng
lish assignment. I requested them to take notes and we
would discuss the notes they had taken after the reports
had been made.

Q. I ask you if in your studying of graduate work you
learned that is one of the accepted methods of teaching
that particular project?

A. Oh, yes, I was introducing the assignment for the
next day by giving some historical background.
[fol. 233] Q. And that is generally accepted as the
proper method of teaching? A. Yes, sir.

Mr. Marshall: Your witness.
Cross-Examination.

By Mr. Nash:
Q. Miss Morris, when did you come into our public

school system? A. The fall of 1935.
Q. Fall of 1935. Do you remember the month in which

you were employed?
A. I signed the contract in August.
Q. In August of 1935? A. Yes, sir.
Q. At that time you were Miss Susie E. Cowan?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have been married? A Yes, sir.
Q. What was the date of your marriage?
A. July the 19th, 1936.
Q. July the 19th, 1936? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did your husband do ?
A. School teacher in Memphis.
Q. Teacher in Memphis?

[fol. 234] A. Yes, sir.

135

Q. Are you now married? A. No, I am not.
Q. You are not married? A. No, I divorced him.
Q. When was your divorce granted?
A. In December, 1939.
Q. In what court was that granted?
A. The Chancery Court.
Q. In what county? A. Pulaski County.
Q. In Pulaski County? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you the plaintiff or were you the defendant

in that suit? A. Plaintiff.
Q. You were the plaintiff? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was in 1939, you say? A. Yes.
Q. Since then you have not re-married? A. No.
Q. You testified as to a number of activities that were

extra-curricula. How long have you been Chairman of the
student publication, the Bear Cat?
[fol. 235] A. I have been Chairman of the Committee
a year.

Q. When were you appointed on that?
A. The fall of last year.
Q. The fall of 1941? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you been Chairman of the English

Department?
A. 1 was appointed Chairman of the English Depart

ment when I came here, and there has been only one
year that I have not served as Chairman of that Depart
ment.

Q. How long have you served on the Public Relations
Committee ?

Mr. Loughborough: Mr. Nash, can I ask you and the
witness both to speak a little louder so we can hear you.
By Mr. Nash :

Q. How long have you been on the Public Relations
Committee? A. This is the second year.

Q. I believe you went on in the fall of 1941?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were Co-chairman of the Committee on

Religion ?
A. I believe you misunderstood me. It is Public Rela

tions.
Q. Isn’t there a committee for or in connection with

religious work that you are serving on as co-chairman?

136

A. On curricula revision.
Q. On curricula revision?

[fol. 236] A. Yes.
Q. Oh, I am sorry, I misunderstood you. You are now

Co-chairman of that committee?
A. This year, but I have always served on that com

mittee.
Q. When were you Co-chairman of the committee?
A. This year.
Q. Fall of 1942? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When were you made a member of the committee

on the commencement exercises?
A. Well, I served, I served on that committee practical

ly every semester, but I was chairman last year.
Q. And when were these exercises held?
A. The commencement exercises?
Q. What month, approximately?
A. About May, the 26th.
Q. 1942, this year ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Miss Morris, you have had some opportunity, have

you, to observe classroom—class work conducted by other
teachers?

A. Yes, I have.
Q. Has your work somewhat fitted you for judging the

teaching ability of teachers? A. I think it has.
[fol. 237] Q. Have you endeavored at any time to make
an appraisal of your own teaching work?

A. Yes, I have. All teachers do that.
Q. Do you do that as a matter of good teaching prac

tice?
A. I do in teaching, good teaching practice, a good

teacher will appraise her methods from time to time. It
may be at one time you have a class that is rather dull,
and you may have to change your methods; and a class
may fail to get a particular assignment, and you have
to see what is the matter with that.

Q. So you have had practice in appraising teachers’
abilities? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is the test of evidence of plans as used by a teacher
a legitimate test of her ability?

A. Yes, it is a legitimate test.
Q. If you were making an appraisal and breaking it

down into five groups, with the first group as denoting

137

the highest quality and the fifth group the lowest quality
—you follow that? A. Perfectly.

Q. And suppose you were rating a teacher on certain
ability, and you wanted to classify her in certain cate
gories beginning with one to five; if you give her a one,
it would denote high form of ability, and if you gave her
a two it would denote a less ability, and so on through
[fol. 238] the fifth, and if you gave her the fifth it would
denote the lowest ability on a comparative basis. Is that
clear? A. It is quite clear.

Q. Now, then, if you were testing yourself and rating
yourself on the part of use of teaching plans, following
this from one to five, in what group would you assign
yourself?

A. I would assign myself in group one because I have
a plan every day.

Q. In group one? A. Yes.
Q. Is development of objectives a legitimate test of a

teacher?
A. It is a legitimate test, but that would have to go

over a period of time.
Q. Necessarily it would, isn’t that true? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The development of an objective necessarily takes

time. A. Necessarily takes time.
Q. In regard to that particular test, how would you

rate yourself? A. One.
Q. All right. Is subject matter of scholarship a legiti

mate test? A. Yes, sir, it is.
[fol. 239] Q. How would you rate yourself as to that?

A. Superior on such matter.
Q. Shall we say one? A. Sure.
Q. Is maintenance of class standards a legitimate test?
A. What do you mean by maintenance of class stand

ards? Will you explain that?
Q. Keeping the teaching quality at a level to cause

the students to strive and especially to do better in their
work.

A. I would rate myself good on all of that.
Q. That would be a one?
A. Because I take particular pains in trying to reach

all students. All students don’t have the same abilities
you find out.

138

Q. I have another test in mind for that. Maybe we
will distinguish between them when we get there. On the
use of recognized teaching methods, is that a legitimate
test? A. Yes, sir.

Q. How would you rate yourself on that?
A. Good. I keep up with it.
Q. Is that a one, too? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Class atmosphere. Is that a legitimate test?

[fol. 240] A. Well, I guess that would take into consider
ation the environment you make for the students.

Q. How would you rate yourself there? A. Good.
Q. Bate yourself as one? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, in recognition of individual differences, or

adaptation, in other words, to the particular student.
Is that a legitimate test? A. Yes, it is.

Q. And how would you rate yourself there?
A. Good.
Q. A one? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is the question of pupil response a legitimate test

for testing the teacher’s ability? A. Yes, it is.
Q. How would you rate yourself there?
A. Over what period of time would you take that?
Q. Over a—
A. Because you can’t get every teacher to respond at

once.
Q. Over a period of a year.
A. I do get all students to respond.
Q. Would you rate yourself, how would you rate your

self on that? A. One.
[fol. 241] Q. Is the point of skill in questioning of stu
dents a legitimate test for ability? A. Yes, sir.

Q. How would you rate yourself on that?
A. I would rate myself one on that.
Q. Attention to room conditions, such as keeping the

temperature of the room proper, neatness about the room,
and such things as that a legitimate test?

A. Yes, sir, windows open and shades even and floor
clean.

Q. On that how would you rate yourself on that?
A. One.
Q. Is a matter of professional relationship a legitimate

test? A. Relationship among the teachers?
Q. Yes. A. Yes, sir.

139

Q. How would you rate yourself on that?
A. I have never had any difficulty.
Q. On this matter of esteem of parents, you have testi

fied somewhat as to that. On that how would you rate
yourself?

A. That is rather difficult for a teacher to rate her
self on esteem of parents because I don’t know what all
the parents think.

Q. In so far as you can tell, how would you rate your
self?

A. In that the Superintendent and supervisor and
[fol. 242] principal understood that one instance. I would
rate myself one on that.

Q. On the matter of class organization, is that a legiti
mate test? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And there how would you rate yourself?
A. One.
Q. One? A. Yes.
Q. In the use of teaching materials and distinguish

ing that from the use of recognized methods, is that a
legitimate test for teacher’s ability? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then how would you rate yourself on that?
A. One.
Q. You have testified somewhat of community activ

ities. Is that a legitimate test for the teacher’s abilities?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And there how would you rate yourself? A. One.
Q. In the matter of personal example, is that a good

test for teacher’s ability? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And there how would you rate yourself?
A. One or above.

[fol. 243] Q. One or above? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So on these several tests you would give a rating

to yourself of one? A. I would.
Q. And that would classify you at the top of the

bracket of five, wouldn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does that leave any room for improvement?
A. Some room.
Q. In it—
A. There is always room for improvement.
Q. On a rating sheet, it doesn’t leave you any room

for improvement?
A. Perhaps it doesn’t, but you asked me to rate myself.

140

Q. On a rating sheet, does it leave any room for im
provement? A. Not very much room.

Q. You alleged in the complaint that you have been dis
criminated against and that the discrimination is salary
on the basis of race and color, and the allegation is that
the discrimination takes the form of paying you a salary
less than the salary paid to white teachers. That is true,
is it? A. That is true.

Q. Would you name some white teacher with whom you
[fol. 244] would like to be compared?

A. I don’t know the names of the white teachers.
Q. Do you know the names of any of the white teachers

with whom you invite a Comparison?
A. Well, I heard the name of Lillian Lane yesterday.

I also heard—I will say use it as a comparison. I don’t
know any white teachers.

Q. Lillian Lane is the only white teacher?
A. The only thing impressed that on me, and because

the lawyers used that yesterday making the comparison
when we entered the system. I don’t know any white
teachers.

Q. Do you know whether there has been any discrimi
nation against you? A. Yes, I have.

Q. Can you point out any?
A. I don’t have the statistics.
Q. But you are unable to name any white teacher

compared to whom you have been discriminated against?
A. Yes, sir, I can’t name any white teacher.
Q. Have you been discriminated against as to com

pared to all teachers of English in high school?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you been discriminated against as compared

with all teachers who have been teaching six years in the
Little Rock High School?

A. I say so. We were on different salaries.
[fol. 245] Q. Are you able to name any teacher in Eng
lish in the Little Rock Senior High School?

A. I am not able to name the teachers of English.
Q. Are you able to name any teachers who entered

the Little Rock School System at the time you did?
A. Lillian Lane, I heard.
Q. Is there any other teacher? A. No.

141

Q. Do you think that the discrimination now consists
in that you now receive less salary than the teachers of
English in the Little Rock Senior High School and that
the difference is based only on race and color?

A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you consider it might be possible the difference

in salary might be based on the difference in qualification,
training and ability?

A. Some of the differences, some of the salaries may
be different for that reason.

Q. If some of the salaries be different for that reason,
is there discrimination there?

A. There is no discrimination.
Q. Now, if the differences in salaries were based on

differences in teaching abilities and difference in training
and difference in degree, was there any discrimination
then?
[fol. 246] A. It Can’t he that and a discrimination.

Q. You think in spite of that, they are governed solely
by discrimination? A. Yes, sir.

Q. How do you arrive at that?
A. Well, a teacher with a Master’s Degree could have

entered here at the same time that I did, I would expect
that teacher to—the teacher to get a teacher’s salary for
a Master’s Degree. If a teacher with an A. B. Degree
entered at that same time, I think that I should get the
same salary if I had the same qualifications.

Q. If you had the same qualifications?
A. From an accredited school with an A. B. Degree.
Q. How do you define qualifications?
A. In an official study, qualification would he estab

lished by reading of the application.
Q. Would it be limited to that?
A. Practically to that for a new teacher.
Q. Do you know whether the Superintendent or the

Teachers’ Committee make any investigation of the teach
er’s application?

A. I don’t have any reason to believe they make any.
Q. Do you know whether the Teachers ’ Committee does

or does not?
A. I was offered a job before I came here, and I don’t

[fol. 247] know whether they investigated my background
or not.

142

Q. You have no knowledge of any investigation?
A. I have no knowledge of any investigation.
Q. Do you know whether or not the Superintendent in

your own particular case wrote to various schools at which
you were professionally employed as a teacher?

A. I am sure he did.
Q. Do you know .whether he made any investigation

other than to interview you and to write to these other
schools? A. I do not.

Q. Do you know whether or not your application was
fully discussed in the Teachers’ Committee?

A. No, I don’t know.
Q. Now, you mention, I believe, that the teacher with

an M. A. Degree teaching English might he entitled to a
higher salary if such was the case. Do you understand that
there is a fixed schedule of salaries in the Little Rock
Public School System?

A. Well, I should think so. That just seems reasonable
to me to have some way of—

Q. Have you seen such a salary schedule?
A. I have seen such a salary schedule for colored teach

ers.
Q. Do you have one with you ?
A. I don’t have one with me, mine is at home.
Q. You have a salary schedule for colored teachers in

[fol. 248] the Little Rock Public School System?
A. Yes, I have got a copy of it.
Q. You might obtain your copy and bring it back.
A. I will he very glad to do that.
Q. Back to the teachers in comparison with whom you

have been discriminated against. Do you go farther and
say you have been discriminated against as compared with
all teachers of the Little Rock High School?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. So you say you have been discriminated against as

to all English teachers and all employed within the last
six years as compared with all other teachers of the Little
Rock Senior High School?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. If a teacher in the Little Rock High School has an

M. A. Degree, has been teaching a longer period and has

143

been teaching a special subject, do you still consider your
self as discriminated against!

A. I explained that. If a teacher has a Master’s
Degree, that would be (stops)

Q. In the Little Rook Senior School, there is a teacher
of English by the name of Catherine Brink. Do you know
Catherine Brink?

A. No, I don’t.
Q. She is listed as having a degree of M. S. That is

[fol. 249] comparable to an M. A., is it not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. She has been teaching in our school system for a

period of thirteen years, she receives a salary of $1710.00.
In your opinion does the fact that she has an M. S.
Degree, as compared to your B. A. Degree, thirteen years
as compared to your six, make a difference?

A. It does make a difference.
Q. Are you prepared to say exactly how much

difference? A. No.
Q. Have you been discriminated against as compared

to Catherine Brink?
Mr. Booker: Just a moment. What name did you

call?
Mr. Nash: Catherine Brink.
Q. Do you feel you have been discriminated against as

compared with Catherine Brink?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. But you admit she has been teaching longer and

teaching another subject, and yet you are not prepared to
say how much you have been discriminated against?

A. No.
Q. Do you think she should have $1500.00? A. No.

[fol. 250] Q. How much should she have?
A. I don’t know that, and I don’t know your system

of giving salaries.
Q. Do you know there is a system of giving salaries?
A. There must be some system. Any school board

would have some system.
Q. Is that the only reason for saying this School Board

has a system?
A. Other than I have seen the school schedule.

144

Q. Do you know that is in force!
A. It was given to ns, I suppose so.
Q. You will get it?
A. I could if the teachers here have one with them.
Q. Does your attorney have a copy of that schedule?
A. I guess so.
Q. Is it here in the courtroom?
A. I don’t know, they may have.
Q. (Takes piece of paper from counsel for plaintiff.)

In the Little Rock Senior High School, there is a teacher
of English by the name of Mary Craig. She has an M. A.
Degree and has been teaching seventeen years.

A. Perhaps I can shorten this by giving my logical
reasoning.

Q. I want you to consider these individuals.
A. All right.
Q. She has an M. A. Degree with seventeen years’

[fol. 251] experience. Do you think you are discrim
inated against as compared to her?

A. If you have no system, I am not; but if you have a
system, I am.

Q. Do you know whether or not we have a system?
A. I am sure the School Board must have a system.
Q. Is that your only basis for saying that?
A. Yes, sir, and I have seen the schedule of the Negroes’

salaries.
Q. She is listed as having a salary of $1752.00. Is that

a fair salary for her?
A. As compared to what I get, it is not.
Q. Where would you place her salary then?
A. Oh, it would take some time for me to say where I

would place it because that would take consideration.
Q. You would have to work out a system?
A. I would have to woi’k out a system.
Q. There is also another teacher in the Little Rock

Senior High School by the name of Helen Hall, who is
listed as having an M. A. Degree, with seven years’
experience, with a salary of $1348.00. Would your answer
be the same as to her?

A. It would be the same, because I would have to study
the case, but I would say a teacher with an M. A. Degree
with no experience would fall in below a teacher with

145

[fol. 252] a Master’s Degree with some five or ten years’
experience, but so far as intangibles, I could not count on
them.

Q. Would you disregard the intangibles?
A. No, no, I would consider them, hut not in hiring a

teacher. I would go into these, it is very difficult to go into
the background of people.

Q. Is it a matter of judgment?
A. It is a matter of judgment.
Q. And discretion ?
A. It is a matter of judgment and discretion.
Q. Who must exercise the judgment and discretion?
A. I do not believe one person, any ten people or one

person could analyze definitely one individual in a short
period of time. To analyze an individual would take quite
some time, to analyze an individual, because every activity
and every experience that a person may have has some
bearing on his reactions.

Q. Do you know how many teachers there are in the
public school system of Little Rock?

A. I know there are a great many teachers, therefore,
it would entail a great many years of study of the individ
ual.

Q. It would entail a great many people ?
A. Oh, yes, that’s the reason I don’t see how they

could, and then I don’t believe the Superintendent could
because he couldn’t have time.
[fol. 253] Q. Isn’t it a fact in any school system they are
limited by the number of members they can have on the
board and the supervisors they can have ?

A. Limited by the number of the school board, I ’ve
heard of some method of changing that—

Q. Let’s limit to, to this. Would you have the Teachers’
Committee and the Superintendent do the employing and
pay the salary on the basis of degree and solely on the
basis of degree?

A. Not absolutely on that.
Q. What else would you include?
A. Well, if a teacher had no experience, the Person

nel Committee, if that Committee makes this examination
or investigation of that teacher, could interview the

10—12,887

146

person, could discuss the person with individuals who may
know him, may ask for written recommendations that
would have some bearing. After that teacher has some
experience—

Q. Pardon me a moment. After that had been done,
it would be still a matter of judgment and discretion in
passing on those intangibles? A. Yes, sir.

Q. That judgment and discretion would still have to be
exercised by the School Board? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And they would have to do the best they could under
[fol. 254] their working basis?

A. Yes, sir, that is right.
Q. Did you undertake to say how many teachers we

have in our public school system? A. No.
Q. Would you imagine there is around four hundred?
A. I imagine so. We have around 125 colored teachers.
Q. Would that mean a large number of applications ?
A. A large number of applications.
Q. Then the work of the Superintendent in employing

teachers and the work of the Teachers’ Committee in re
viewing them would necessarily be a task.

A. It would be quite a task, but I don’t think the results
would be arrived at in any amount by classifying these
teachers in this manner, that this teacher is worth $60.00
or $67.50.

Q. No committee could arrive at an exact scientific
figure dealing with these intangibles. Is that true?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. And as a last analysis, it is still a matter of judgment

or discretion, is it not? It may be good judgment or bad
judgment, but it is still a matter of discretion and judg
ment on the part of someone, is it not?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then in employing a teacher for the first time, if

[fol. 255] she has a B. A. Degree or has an M. A. or has
had other experience or if she has had no experience but
dealing with intangibles it is still all a matter of judgment
on the part of the employing board. A. Not all.

Q. Is there any mechanical device by which you can
arrive at it? A. No.

Q. It is then a matter of judgment.
A. It is not all a matter of judgment.

147

Q. Can any part of it be mechanical?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In what way could it be mechanical?
A. A teacher with an A. B. Degree from an accredited

school with no experience would fall into a certain bracket.
Q. Is an A. B. Degree, in your estimation, from Tal

ladega equivalent to an A. B. Degree from the University
of Chicago?

A. Yes, it is. It follows very closely the course of
study that of the University of Chicago.

Q. Is it equivalent to an A. B. Degree from Harvard?
A. I know very little about Harvard, but if it is accred

ited, I would say it is.
Q. Is it equivalent to an A. B. from Columbia?
A. Yes, I would rather have it than a degree from

Columbia.
[fol. 256] Q. Is it equivalent to an A. B. Degree from
the University of Arkansas?

A. Yes, sir, it is accredited.
Q. If two schools are accredited, regardless of any

thing else, an A. B. Degree is the same. Is that true?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Suppose one applicant has an A. B. Degree from

one college and another from another. Suppose one was an
honor student and the other merely passed. That does not
show up in the degree, does it? A. No.

Q. But it is still an A. B. Degree? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the qualities of training these applicants have

had, does the A. B. show the qualities of training each one
has had?

A. It may not show the quality of training, but may
show the quality of training because it is pretty hard to
decide what an individual has obtained from a course. It
does not show up in marking.

Q. An A. B. does not automatically show the quality
of a teacher?

A. Quite true, but it seems to me there must be some
starting point for judging.

Q. Then if your A. B. Degree only starts it, your
[fol. 257] mechanical system breaks down? A. No.

Q. Would you give each the same number of points if
you were rating them?

A. If the A. B. is from an accredited school, yes, sir.

148

Q. I mean on degree which has come from any accred
ited school.

A. I think they would fall into the same bracket.
Q. Back to the comparison of teachers in the Little

Bock Senior High School, there is one Janette Harrington
who has an M. A. Degree with thirteen years’ experience
here, she has a salary of $1552.00. Do you consider that
you have been discriminated against as to her?

A. Yes, I do.
Q. She was employed here before you were. Is that

correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. To what extent has she been discriminated against

—have you been discriminated against?
A. That would take a lot of study.
Q. Well, in the last analysis, it would be a matter of

judgment.
A. I would have to study, no, it wouldn’t be a matter of

judgment.
Q. How would you determine these intangibles? There

must be some intangibles, must there not?
[fob 258] A. Oh, yes. I would say it must be, perhaps,
with the teacher—I would say the atmosphere, perhaps,
that a teacher can create, poise.

Q. That is a matter of judgment.
A. That is a matter of judgment, but it is hard to say

whether a teacher has $50.00 worth of poise or $55.00 worth
of poise.

Q. But it would still be a matter of judgment, and you
would have to exercise your judgment on that.

A. Yes, that is a starting point. You would have to
have a system.

Q. But your system would still have a matter of judg
ment.

A. There must be some judgment in everything.
Q. There is another teacher teaching in the school by

the name of Elizabeth Huckaby, and she has an M. A.
Degree, eleven and a half years’ experience here and re
ceives $934.00. Do you consider that you have been discrim
inated against as to her?

A. I feel I have been discriminated against; and talk
ing about my A. B. Degree, I would like to have a Master’s
Degree, but in that I have been discriminated against on
the A. B. Degree, I don’t have the money, therefore I re
main in the A. B. bracket.

149

Q. Then let us consider some of the A. B.’s. There is in
the Little Rock Senior High School an English teacher by
[fol. 259] the name of Carolyn Broadhead. She has an
A. B. Degree, has been teaching fourteen -years here. It
doesn t show whether—strike that, please—It doesn’t show
that she has done any further work toward a Master’s De
gree, but she has a degree of A. B., as I mentioned, and re
ceives a salary of $1498.00. Do you consider you have been
discriminated against as compared to her?

A. Yes, I do.
Q. Have you done work towards your Master’s De

gree? A. I have done graduate work/
Q. Can you state the number of hours you have taken

training toward a degree?
A. I have no work toward a degree, as such, but I

have done graduate work.
Q. Would you evaluate the difference of Carolyn

Broadhead’s fourteen years as compared with your six
years. Would you give her any credit for that?

A. I am sure seniority means something in the system.
Q. If there is a. system.
A. If there is a system, seniority would mean some

thing.
Q. If she were inferior to you in some teaching abilities,

would that have its effect?
A. I don’t quite get that.
Q. In comparing salaries, yours with hers, if she were

inferior to you in certain teaching abilities, would that
[fol. 260] be an element to be considered?

A. I don’t think that should be considered.
Q. If she were superior to you in certain teaching abili

ties, would that be an element to be considered?
A. No, because perhaps I would be superior to her in

something else, and she would be inferior to me in some
thing else.

Q. Can the different abilities be considered in the com
parison?

A. I don’t think they should be considered. If the
teacher falls too far below the quality, comparative stand
ards of the school, the teacher should be released.

Q. Then in comparing your position with that of Caro
lyn Broadhead, you would give salary, the degrees you
have and the number of years you have, all consideration?

150

A. There must be some way of judging, but I wouldn’t
think that would enter into the salary.

Q. You wouldn’t take into consideration in fixing the
salary the teaching ability!

A. I wouldn’t have a teacher who couldn’t keep up.
Q. But there is a difference in teaching abilities?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But no difference in the salary?
A. I think that would he very unfair.
Q. In comparison with Carolyn Broadhead, you feel

you have been discriminated against because she has an
[fol. 261] A. B. Degree, and although she may have more
ability than you?

A. I didn’t say that we would all be the same.
Q. In comparison, you, vourbelf with her, you would

not consider teaching ability? A. Not in the salary.
Q. In the salary, you would just consider the degree

but not what she is teaching?
A. For rating the teacher, but not in the salary.
Q. For rating the teacher, but not in the salary?
A. No, sir.
Q. All right, there is another teacher in the Little

Rock Senior High School by the name of Helen Key, teach
ing English, has an A. B. Degree, she has had three years’
experience. In comparing your position with her, would
you limit that comparison to the fact of degree and to
the number of years of experience? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And if she has a higher salary than you have, you
would say clearly that here is a case of discrimination? Is
that true? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you would base that discrimination solely on
the fact you have the same degree and you have been
teaching longer? Is that true? A. That is true.
[fol. 262] Q. Now, there are other English teachers
with A. B. Degrees at Senior High School, but you ask we
take the B. A .’s. There is another teacher, Francile Oak
ley, who has a degree of Bachelor of Science, that is a com
parable degree with an A. B.? A. Yes, sir.

Q. She has been teaching for a period of twelve years
in our system here and receives a salary of $1194.00. In
comparing your position with her in this matter of dis
crimination, do you say again that is a mattei of disci im-
ination? A. I do.

151

Q. The only things to be construed are the degrees and
years’ experience? A. About the salary.

Q- And the salary should be based on degrees and years
of experience? Is that correct? A. Yes, sir.

Q- Another teacher is !\lary Piercey, who also has an
A. B. Degree with three years’ experience in our schools.
She has a salary of $1122.00. You say the same with refer
ence to a comparison on that basis with hers ?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. 1 ou base it solely on the degree and years of ex

perience in our system? A. In considering the salary,
[fol. 263] Q. In other words, since Mary Piercey has
the same degree you have and has had half the experience
in teaching in our school system, she ought to receive less
salary, and if she receives more, considering these two fac
tors only, you have been discriminated against. Is that
true? A. Yes.

Q. Another teacher of English with an A. B. Degree is
Mildred Stalnaker. She has fifteen years’ experience and
receives $1506.00. Do you think her salary is justifiable
in comparison with yours?

A. What does she receive?
Q. $1506.00. A. I do, yes.
Q. What should she receive?
A. I would have to work out a system.
Q. lou r system would be based solely for salary on de

grees and experience?
A. So far as any salary is concerned.
Q. Another teacher of English with a degree of B. S.,

Bachelor of Science, comparable to an A. B., fifteen years’
experience, she is paid $1350.00. Would your answer be
the same? A. Be the same.

Q. Do you happen to know whether there are more ap-
[fol. 264] plicants for position of English teacher than
some other position?

A. Well, the summer I came into the system, Mr. Ham
ilton told me there were many applications for that job.

Q. Do you purport to know how many applications
there are for various teaching jobs?

A. I wouldn’t know that. That information is not avail
able to us.

Q. English, the study of English is recognized as an
ordinary academic subject required for a degree of
Bachelor of Arts, is it not?

152

A. Yes, sir, an ordinary study.
Q. One of the required subjects'?
A. Well, in the college I attended it is required.
Q. Isn’t that true in most colleges?
A. Well, most accredited colleges.
Q. Does the subject of music require any different

capabilities for teaching than the subject of English?
A. Different capabilities, yes, but no more.
Q. Different capabilities?
A. Yes, it takes difference to teach carpentry.
Q. Does it require a different type of training?
A. Any specialist study would require it.
Mr. Marshall: We wish to object to this line of ques

tioning on the ground that we have a teacher here who
[fol. 265] has qualified to teach’ English. She doesn’t pur
port to be a person qualified to teach music or any other
subject, and questioning her about what it takes to teach
music seems to be outside the bounds of even cross-exam
ination.

Mr. Nash: If the Court please, she testified she con
sidered herself discriminated against as compared to all
teachers in high school, as compared to them. One of
these teaches music.

The Court: It will be admitted for that purpose and
objections overruled.

A. It would take a different type of training to teach
in any specialized branch.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Would you give any consideration to these different
types of training in comparing applicants and in fixing
salary? A. No, I would not.

Q. Would your system, if you were devising a system,
would you consider a degree in music the same as a degree
in English? So that if there is a degree held by each,
would you say then that both are equal?

A. Yes, sir, I would consider the students who gradu
ated in my college class as Bachelors of Music, I consider
that comparable to my A. B. in English.
[fol. 266] Q. And if two such students, one an A. B. in
Music and one in English, were applying here for teaching
positions, would you give any difference, any different
weight to the difference in training?

153

A. I don’t see how that could be done. I would not.
Now do you mean like this: If you have a music teacher
and a history teacher and a mathematics teacher, you
would try to go into the various skills these teachers had
to exercise?

Q. If you had two vacancies in your school, one for
teaching music and another for teaching English, and both
applicants were before you, would you give, or would you
pay any attention to the subject matter to be taught by
them?

A. No, I would not. If they both had a Bachelor’s for
the subject to be taught, or a Master’s.

Q. Would you pay them the same, regardless or sub
ject? A. Yes, sir.

Q. In the Little Rock High School, there is a teacher
named Mary Clifford. She has a B. A. Degree. She has
been teaching for six years, which, at the time these
figures were compiled, was the same as the years you have
been teaching. She is teaching music, and she receives
a salary of $945.00, more salary than you receive. Do you
think that you have been discriminated against as com
pared to her? A. Yes, I do.
[fol. 267] Q. Now, then, if she has a comparable degree
and has been teaching the same number of years, as when
these figures were compiled, do you say automatically
you ought to have the same salary she has?

A. I would say that. You understand I am not an
authority on that. If I was going to do that. I would
study what other systems are doing.

Q. And because you say that, you consider you have
been discriminated against? Is that true? A. Yes, sir.

Mr. Nash: May it please the Court, I have not pre
viously had an opportunity to examine this purported
schedule of salaries for colored teachers. Would it be per
missible to have a short recess that we may have the op
portunity to do that?

The Court: The Court will be in recess for five minutes.

Whereupon, the Court was recessed for five minutes,
after which the Court reconvened pursuant to order for
recess.

154

Susie C. Morris, witness in her own behalf, on con
tinued

Cross-Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Miss Morris, I have made no attempt and at this
time do not wish to make an attempt to invite a compari
son with every teacher, every white tea'cher in the Little
[fol. 268] Rock Public School System. Do I understand,
however, that you claim you have been discriminated
against in the matter of salary in comparison with all the
white teachers in the Little Rock Public School System?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you base that claim of discrimination on the

two factors of degrees and experience?
A. I would base it on that because those are the things

considered when we enter.
Q. Do you know those are the things considered when

you enter the system? Do you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know that the School Board considers only

degrees and experience when teachers enter the system?
A. No, I don’t know that that is all that they consider,

but for beginning teachers I guess they would all start
in together.

Q. In your system of rating teachers, you would say
that A. B. Degrees are equivalent if they are from ac
credited schools. Is that correct?

A. You ask for an opinion. I am not an authority on
rating.

Q. Just your opinion is all I ask. A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know what the status is of the Philander-

Smitli? Do you know whether it is an accredited school?
[fol. 269] A. It is a member of the North Central As
sociation, but I think it is not accredited. I think the
North Central only accredits “ A ” schools, but it is a mem
ber.

Q. It is not an accredited school, however?
A. I don’t know the last rating on Pliilander-Smith.
Q. Do you know what the rating is for Shorter College?
A. I am sure Shorter College has no rating.
Q. Do you know what the rating is for Arkansas Bap

tist College? A. I am sure it has no rating.
Q. Do you know what the rating is for the school at

Pine Bluff, the A. & M.?

155

A. I am not so sure of that. We have teachers from
there teaching in our school, and our school is accredited,
so I don’t know.

Q. Do you know whether or not there are in the school
system colored teachers with degrees from these Arkansas
schools? A. In our school system!

Q. Yes.
A. I think we have some Philander-Smith teachers, I

really don’t know the scholastic rating of the teachers.
Q. Do you know whether these Arkansas Schools grant

degrees? A. Philander-Smith does.
Q. Then is an A. B. Degree, in your opinion, Philander-

Smith’s, equivalent to an A. B. from Talladega?
A. I have not gone into the—
Q. One is accredited and the other is not, assuming the

[fol. 270] other is not.
A. Assuming, I would assume that a degree from a non-

accredited school doesn’t have as much value as that from
an accredited school, but I don’t know about Philander-
Smith.

Q. If you were fixing salaries for two teachers, one with
a degree from an accredited school and one from a school
not accredited, would you make any difference in the sal
ary? A. Not for a beginning teacher.

Q. In other words, you think that an A. B. Degree is
an A. B. Degree, regardless of the school it comes from?

A. Evidently is good if you are now hiring the teachers.
Q. Is there any desirability for entering a college ob

taining a rating, being accredited by the North Central As
sociation, if all A. B. ’s are the same ?

A. It has some desirability.
Q. It doesn’t make any difference in salary?
A. I say if the teacher would be hired.
Q. Have you made a study of this rate sheet that you

call a salary schedule? You haven’t studied it, have you?
A. I have looked at it.
Q. How is it headed?
A. Special adjustment plans.
Q. Special adjustment plan? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does it say there then that is a schedule of salaries?

[fol. 271] A. It is a schedule.
Q. It is listed as an adjustment?
A. But is is a schedule.

156

Q. Do you find there any statement that shows that
that comes from the Little Rock School Board? Is that
signed by any official of the Little Rock School Board?

A. No, it is not.
Q. Is it signed by the Superintendent?
A. No, it is not.
Q. Does it show it comes from the office of the Little

Rock School Board?
A. It doesn’t show it ; it does.
Q. Do you know whether it came from the office of the

Little Rock School Board? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know it did? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know it came from the office of the Little

Rock School Board? A. . Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know who prepared that?
A. I don’t know, I take it for granted a member of the

School Board.
Q. You assume that?
A. I assume it was, because we could take our salaries

[fol. 272] and they would fall right in here, for instance.
Q. Where would you fall?
A. I was making $706.00, fall right here, in the seven

years’ experience, A. B. Degree.
Q. What would you receive?
A. On here I received $682.00.
Q. Under that paper you call a schedule, you would

receive $682.00. What did you receive? A. $706.00.
Q. Then if that is a salary schedule, your salary is

higher than the schedule?
A. I could easily explain that. The Superintendent

gave you—gave me $8.00 more.
Q. Gave you an increase ?
A. He said he could give me an increase.
Q. It would still he higher than the salary mentioned

there. A. Yes, sir.
Q. Miss Morris, do you remember that in the spring of

1940 there was an adjustment of salaries made, generally,
within the City of Little Rock, within the school system in
Little Rock? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you remember in what month that adjustment
was made? A. May.

Q. Of 1940?

A. We got the increase at the same time we made the
[fol. 273] contract, I believe it was in May.

Q. There was an adjustment made at the same time. Is
that true ? A. I think it was.

Q. Do you know whether that adjustment was made on
the same plan, same as the one outlined there?

A. The only thing I remember I got $11.00 for that
year, that is all I remember.

Q. Do you know whether that came directly from the
School Board? A. It did, yes.

Q. Did? A. Oh, yes.
Q. Do you know whether that $11.00 is based on that

plan? A. Supposed to be.
Q. Are you under the impression that this is a salary

schedule in force as to all colored teachers?
A. It says Negro teachers, we have some teachers who

receive more than this. We have persons with Master’s
Degree—$750.00, the highest person with Master’s Degree
you got here was $750.00.

Q. Now, you say you have been discriminated against
in the payment of salaries and salary is based on schedules.
In the complaint, is your allegation based on your con
struction that this schedule is applicable to Negro teach-
[fol. 274] ers? A. Not on this schedule.

Q. So you made no construction about this schedule,
did you?

A. Yes, sir, but it was given me.
Q. Does it form any basis for your idea you are dis

criminated against?
A. Oh, yes, sir, it does.
Q. When you say you have been discriminated against

in the matter of salary in that the Little Rock School
Board maintains one schedule for colored teachers and one
for white teachers, are you basing that allegation on this
instrument? A. Not altogether.

Q. Are you basing it on some other instrument?
A. Not any instrument, I don’t know.
Q. What else are you basing your allegation on?
A. The fact that colored teachers with the same amount

of experience and same training are paid less.
Q. Then if this is proven not to be a salary schedule and

not any act of the School Board, is your allegation to that
extent erroneous? A. No, it is not.

157

158

Q. You said you based your allegation somewhat on this
as a salary schedule? A. I said somewhat.
[fol. 275] Q. Then if that should prove not to be a salary
schedule, is your allegation somewhat wrong? A. No.

Q. It would still be right?
A. Yes, sir, because we still get the salaries.
Q. And your allegations would not be impaired to any

extent?
A. If this is not a schedule, we still get the salaries in

these brackets.
Q. Do you say that allegation in your complaint is based

on this being a schedule?
A. I said somewhat. .
Q. And if it should prove not to be a schedule, your

allegation has been impaired, is that correct?
A. It is not.
Q. You think the most that could happen, you were

just mistaken on the nature of your allegation?
A. Just mistaken on this piece of paper, perhaps, but

we still get the salaries.
Mr. Nash: That is all.

Redirect Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Miss Morris, where did you get this piece of paper
designated “ Special Adjustment Plan for Negro Teachers”
which Mr. Nash has used in his questioning?
[fol. 276] A. I got it, one just like that out of my mail
box.

Q. At the school? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you usually get bulletins from the School

Board in that mail box? A. I do.
Q. Do you know of your own personal knowledge that

all of the teachers in Dunbar found that in their mail
boxes? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Has that ever been discussed with Mr. Hamilton in
your presence? A. That plan?

Q. That plan. A. No.
Q. Has it ever been referred to by anyone in your

presence? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who?
A. In the City Teachers’ . Association, we have dis

cussed it.

159

Q. Discussed it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you received this in your mail box just like you

received all other bulletins from the School Board?
A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall: If your Honor please, we wish to offer

[fol. 277] this in evidence as Special Adjustment Plans for
Negro Teachers as it is set out on the sheet which purports
to be a list of the money divided according to years of
experience, years of training, and we wish to offer it in
evidence.

The Court: Any objection?
Mr. Nash: No.

The Court: Let it go in.

Exhibit, Plaintiff’s No. 4.

The above document admitted in evidence and is in words
and figures as follows:

(Shown following the Testimony in this printed record.)
[fol. 278] By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Miss Morris, does the fact that after teaching more
than six years in the Little Rock School System and the
fact of being head of the English Department for Dunbar
High School for that full time, with exception of one year,
the fact that you get less salary than any white teacher in
the system, in your mind form a basis for your belief that
you are being discriminated against because of your
race? A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was your answer?
A. It does form the basis.
Q. Mr. Nash asked you about several white teachers.

Does the fact that Miss Lillian Lane, with only an A. B.
Degree and no experience, gets $900.00, which is $194.00
more than you get, give rise in your mind that there is
discrimination? A. It does.

Q. Is that true as to Mrs. Catherine Lee, a white
teacher with an A. B. Degree and only three years’ ex
perience who gets $1060.00? A. It does.

Q. The same of Miss Wharry, with no experience in the
Little Rock Schools and only a B. S. E. Degree?

160

A. Yes, sir.
[fol. 279] Q. And the same is true of Helen Key, getting
$ 1122.00?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. And no experience in Little Rock? A. It does.
Q. And Miss Mary Piercey with only an A. B. Degree

and only three years in Little Rock and getting $1122.00?
A. It does.
Q. Would the fact that although Miss Flora Armitage a

white teacher with twenty-seven years’ experience, she
only has two years of college, justify in your mind the
fact she only gets twice the salary you get?

A. That is right.
Q. Do you think that is justified? A. I do not.
Q. Is it your object, the plaintiff in this suit, to attempt

to obtain the salary schedule, or a basis of salary or any
particular method for the fixing of salaries?

A. No particular method.
Q. What is your object in this suit?
A. Object, I have registered this complaint that colored

teachers are discriminated against and ask the discrim
ination be relieved.

Q. You are not interested in setting up any plan of
salaries? A. No.

Q. Or any particular method?
[fol. 280] A. Not at all.

Q. And the only thing you are trying to do is to stop
this discrimination because of race?

A. Yes, sir.

Mr. Marshall: That is all.
Cross-Examination.

By Mr. Nash:
Q. Miss Morris, do I understand you to say that your

object in this suit is to eliminate any discrimination which
you believe to exist as against colored teachers?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. In arriving at what you consider to be a discrim

ination, you consider only the matter of degrees and years
of experience? Is that true?

A. Not in this case, not in the Little Rock School system.
You asked me a hypothetical question.

161

Q. I mean for all my questions to be directed to the
conditions that exist here in the Little Rock Public School
System. On that understanding, and saying that you
have been discriminated against and that other colored
teachers have been discriminated against, is the basis of
discrimination limited to the matter of degrees and ex
perience in the Little Rock Public School System?

A. The basis of it is.
Q. Is there any other element involved in that basis?

[fol. 281] A. I don’t know, I couldn’t go on any other
basis; I would have some place to start.

Q. Do you give any weight to these various intangibles
we have suggested?

A. I don’t believe, intangibles, that would take years of
study to go into that.

Q. Would you leave them out, then, in fixing salaries ?
A. In fixing basic salaries, I would.
The Court: I think that has all been covered, Mr. Nash.
Mr. Nash: I wanted to clarify it in response to oppos

ing counsel’s particular question, but I am satisfied with
her answer.

The Court: The witness is excused.

Here the Court adjourned until 1 :30 P. M., at which
time the Court reconvened pursuant to order for recess, and
proceeded as follows:

John H. Lewis, sworn as a witness on behalf of the
plaintiff, testified as follows on

Direct Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Your name is John H. Lewis?
[fol. 282] Yes, sir.

Q. Your address, also? A. 1204 Ringo Street.
Q. You are connected with the Little Rock Public

School System? A. I am.
Q. And what is your position?
A. I am the principal.
Q. Of what school? A. Dunbar High School.

11—12,887

162

Q. And how long have you been the principal of Dun
bar High School? A. Thirteen years.

Q. Mr. Lewis, will you as briefly as possible give your
educational background to the present day, starting with
your college work?

A. I received my Bachelor of Arts Degree at Morris-
Brown College at Atlanta, Georgia.. After teaching five
years, four as principal of the high school of Cuthbert,
Georgia, and one year as a teacher in the High School De
partment of Morris-Brown, I entered Yale Divinity School.
I was there three years with a major of Social Science and
anthropology and ethnology.

After completing my work at Yale, I entered the Uni
versity of Chicago, continuing my emphasis upon social
[fol. 283] science and also education, we took at Yale and
also at Chicago subsequent during the summer’s work in
the history of education, principles of education, theories
of teaching, and materials and methods, of course, under
Cozelle at Yale, Koose at Chicago, and Revis and Free
man in Test and Measurements. After completing my
work at Chicago, I was asked to go back to Morris-Brown.

Q. Just one moment. When you say completed, did you
get a degree? A. I got my Master of Arts.

Q. All right, then, go ahead.
A. After getting my Master of Arts Degree, we came

hack to Atlanta and taught there three years as head of
the Department of Sociology, and completing those years,
we served as principal of the high school at Lincoln, Mis
souri, and also, at the same time as pastoring a church
there. We then went to California for one year as pastor
of one of the large churches there. While there, we took
non-credit work at the University of Southern California.

Q. In what subjects?
A. In education, of course.
Q. After we had been there one year, I was asked to

go to Morris-Brown College as President, and I was Presi-
[fol. 284] dent of Morris-Brown College for eight years.
We had there some thirty or more teachers having, of
course, a high school and college at that time. After I had
been there eight years, I resigned and went back to the
same church in California. I had been there just one year
by invitation of the people to return, and I was offered the

163

principalship of the Dunbar High School, and Dunbar Ju
nior College, and was offered the principalship upon the
recommendation of three gentlemen of the Rockefeller
Foundation and the General Education Board; Mr. Jack-
son Davis, Field Representative of the General Education
Board; Dr. James P. Dillard, Representatives of the
Jeames Fund, and Mr. Walter I. Hill, Supervisor of Negro
Education in Georgia. These men had observed my work
for three or four years in Morris-Brown and concluded I
was the proper person to head up the principalship here;
and on their recommendation, Mr. Hall offered me the
principalship. Have been here thirteen years as principal
of this school.

Q. Now, is it now true that a.t the present time Dunbar
is an accredited high school?

A. It is fully accredited by the North Central Asso
ciation.

Q. And in order for it to be accredited and to retain
its credit rating, it isn’t necessary to have teachers of a
certain level?

A. They all meet the North Central requirements?
Q. All the teachers in your school?
A. We have some four or five who are not graduates of

[fol. 285] accredited schools, but these teachers are ap
proved by Mr. Cox, of the State Board. In no case do
we employ any teacher unless thoroughly approved by the
North Central Association.

Q. That is the same association which accredits the
high school? A. The same.

Q. And you follow the same standards?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Is it true that a majority of the teachers in Dun

bar have degrees from accredited colleges?
A. They do that.
Q. The majority of them?
A. They certainly do. We only have five that do not

have.
Q; How many do you have altogether?
A. We have forty-two teachers.
Q. And with the exception of four or five, they have

graduated from accredited schools?
A. Yes, sir. To be specific, if we hire a teacher of

Philander-Smith or Shorter College, that teacher is ap
proved by Mr. Scobee and Mr. Cox.

164

Q. During the time you have been with the Public
School System of the different places you have taught and
different places you have been principal, and during your
time as president of Morris-Brown College, has it been
[fol. 286] your duty to appraise the teaching ability of
teachers? A. It has been my duty.

Q. Could you estimate about how many teachers have
been under you during the entire period? Could you give
us an estimate in round figures?

A. Oh, at least a hundred and fifty teachers.
Q. And you have had to appraise that many teachers?
A. I have had to do that.
Q. And have had to do it over and over again?
A. I have.
Q. Do you know the plaintiff in this case?
A. Miss Susie Morris, a teacher in that school.
Q. Have you had an opportunity to observe her as a

teacher? A. I have, very carefully.
Q. Have you had an opportunity to observe her extra-

curricula work? A. I have observed her.
Q. In your opinion, what kind of teacher is Miss Susie

Morris? A. A superior teacher.
Q. lo u consider her as in the upper bracket of the

teachers you have been connected with?
A. She is an upper-bracket teacher.
Q. She is an upper-bracket teacher?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you had occasion to find fault with any of

[fol. 287] her work since she has been in your school?
A. At no time.
Q. How often do you observe your teachers in Dun

bar?
A. Of course, Dunbar is a large school, as we have said,

but I am certain I am able to get around to every teacher
at least on an average of once a month, or more, on the
average.

Q. And about how long do you stay on these visits?
A. Well, an average of perhaps about twenty minutes,

or an average, I will say.
Q. And during that time you will say that you visited

Susie Morris about that often? A. Yes, I have.
Q. And you have observed her teaching different types

of subjects and English?

165

A. I have observed her, yes, sir.
Q. And different classes she has had?
A. I have observed her.
Q. And it is your opinion that she is in the upper-

bracket in the teaching profession?
A. She is in the upper bracket.
Q. And have you made any complaints to the School

Board about Miss Morris? A. I never have.
Q. And ability, and of today it is your opinion she is a

[fol. 288] very good teacher? A. Very capable.
Q. Have you had occasion to look at the plans for

teaching of Miss Morris, her teaching plans that she uses
daily? A. I have seen them.

Q. Are they, in your mind, good or bad plans?
A. She is a thoroughly progressive teacher that fol

lows modern, progressive methods, the methods approved
by the Chicago University.

Q. In development of objectives for her class, what do
you think of that?

A. I think she has objectives, and I think she develops
them.

Q. And what about and have you checked into her
scholastic, scholarship attainments at Atlanta and Chi
cago? A. I have done that.

Q. And what do you say about that?
A. Atlanta and Chicago rank her up as superior,

around “ A ” or “ A ” minus.
Q. And maintaining of class standards?
A. Excellent.
Q. Use of recognized methods? A. Excellent.
Q. What about the class atmosphere?
A. It is good.

[fol. 289] Q. Can you say anything about her recogni
tion of individual differences of school children?

A. She recognizes individual differences as any su
perior teacher does.

Q. Does she take steps to correct and help the weaker
children? A. She does that.

Q. What about pupil response in her class?
A. Pupil response is good.
Q. Skill in questioning. What about it?
A. I think her questioning is about perfect.

166

Q. How about her attention to room conditions, of
windows and ventilation?

A. Certainly that is good, but that is no part of a su
perior teacher, hut that is good.

Q. Her professional relations with other teachers?
A. Excellent.
Q. Have you had occasion to hear her discussed hy par

ents? A. Very frequently, very frequently.
Q. Frequently?
A. Very favorably, yes, sir.
Q. What about her class organization?
A. It is very good.
Q. And her use of materials? A. Very good.

[fol. 290] Q. What about her community activities?
A. She is very active in her community relationship.
Q. Do you think she makes a very good personal ex

ample for students at Dunbar?
A. An excellent example.
Mr. Marshall: Your witness.

Cross-Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Mr. Lewis, I believe you say that you have had
college work in the subjects of divinity?

A. That is right.
Q. Do you have a degree of Divinity?
A. 1 do have it.
Q. Is that the “ Doctor” that is prefixed to your name

by us, Doctor Lewis?
A. I don’t have a Doctor’s Degree, I simply have a

Bachelor’s Degree and Master of Arts Degree. I have
several honorary degrees, but only earned degrees is all
I have.

Q. You have a Degree in Divinity?
A. Bachelor of Divinity in Yale.
Q. You have some time served as pastor for churches?
A. I have.
Q. You have been at Dunbar for a period of thirteen

years. Is that correct? A. Thirteen years.
Q. Mr. Lewis, you have testified as to the plaintiff in

this case, Miss Susie Morris. Do you consider yourself
among those colored teachers who have been discriminated
against in the payment of salary? A. We do.

167

Q. Do you consider yourself as one of the teachers?
A. I do.
Q. In comparison with whom have you been discrim

inated against?
A. I have not checked accurately the list, but in ob

serving the list, as I see it (stops)
Q. Are you able to mention any specific teacher in the

schools of Little Rock?
A. Perhaps I am not able to mention any specific teach

er, but (stops)
Q. Do you consider that you have been discriminated

against compared to Mr. Larson, who is principal of the
Little Rock Senior High School? A. I do.

Q. Is he the only person in the Little Rock Public
Schools who has a position comparable to you?

A. So far as I know, he is. I could not say definitely.
Q. Are there any other high schools in the Little Rock

[fol. 292] Public School System?
A. I do not know of any.
Q. Only Dunbar and the Little Rock Senior High?
A. That is right.
Q. So there are no other principals within our school

system who have comparable positions with yours. Is
that correct? A. So far as I know.

Q. Well, you would know whether there was any other
high school in Little Rock?

A. There could be private schools.
Q. No, in our public school system. A. No.
Q. He is really the only one with whom you have a

comparable position? A. That is true.
Q. Do you know what degree is held by Mr. Larson?
A. I do not know.
Q. Do you know what schools he attended?
A. I do not know.
Q. Do you know how long he has been here?
A. Not definitely.
Q. Do you know about how long he has been here?
A. More than twenty years.
Q. Do you know it would be almost thirty years?

[fol. 293] A. I do not know definitely.
Q. Do you know definitely he has been here longer than

you have?
A. He has been here longer than I have.

1 6 8

Q. Do you know what salary he receives?
A. Yes, sir, approximately four thousand dollars.
Q. Do you know how many students are in the Dunbar

High School?
A. Around 1600 with the junior college.
Q. Around 1600?
A. To be exact, around 1500 with the junior college and

high school.
Q. Do you know about how many students are in high

school, proper?
A. Well, in the high school, proper, there are about

700, that is in the upper three years.
Q. Uh-huh. Do you have a separate staff of teachers

for the junior college?
A. In part we do, for some who teach entirely in the

junior college and others who teach in both schools.
Q. Do the students in the junior college pay fees?
A. They do pay fees.
Q. How is that money expended?
A. It is expended to meet the salaries of the junior

college teachers, primarily.
[fob 294] Q. Any of the money spent on your salary?

A. None at all.
Q. Are you paid entirely from funds of the Little Rock

Public School System? A. I am.
Q. Do you do any teaching at Dunbar Junior College?
A. I am allowed to give two hours in religious edu

cation, and that is all.
Q. Who is administrative head of the junior college?
A. F. O. Roberts.
Q. How is he paid?
A. By the junior college, proper.
Q. Is he paid from funds of the Little Rock Public

School System?
A. He is paid from funds received from fees in the

junior College only.
Q. Do you happen to know how many students are in

the Little Rock Senior High School?
A. I don’t know exactly how many there are over

there.
Q. What would be your best approximation?
A. There must be around 2,000, or a little more than

that.

169

Q. Do yon know whether or not Mr. Larson is as
sociated with the Little Rock Junior College?

A. I understand he is the president of it.
Q. Do you know whether or not he is paid from funds

[fol. 295] of the Little Rock School System?
A. I do not know that.
Q. On what basis do you claim there is a discrimina

tion? You don’t know what degree he has?
A. I think I do know.
Q. If you think you know, will you state what you

think? A. I think he has a Master of Arts Degree.
Q. Where did he receive the degree?
A. At Chicago.
Q. Where did you receive your degree?
A. At Chicago.
Q. You received your degree, then, from the same uni

versity. Is that true? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You consider your degree comparable to his. Is

that true? A. Yes, I do.
Q. You state he has been employed in the Little Rock

Public School System for some period longer than you
have? A. He has been.

Q. Has that affected the amount of salary to be paid
him ?

A. It doesn’t affect the amount paid us. I don’t know
about him.

Q. Should it affect the amount of salary paid to him?
A. I don’t know, it doesn’t affect us, no, no matter

how long we have been here.
Q. Do you know that?
A. In many cases, while as—I am sure there is a little

[fol. 296] bonus attached.
Q. Have you been in a position in which you have em

ployed teachers?
A- I have— (hesitates)
Q. In evaluating applicants for teaching jobs for the

purpose of employing, what do you consider in the appli
cant? A. First of all, scholarship.

Q. As measured by what?
A. Measured by academic and professional training

from the best schools.
Q. How do you measure that?

170

A. I am saying that in considering teachers, my first
consideration is scholarship in terms of their undergradu
ate and graduate training, their subject matter and their
knowledge of the profession.

Q. Let’s remain on the point of scholarship first.
How do you measure scholarship for the purpose of em
ployment?

A. Well, in employing teachers the first of all get
their credits, their transcript and check these credits.
If we want an English teacher, I check her work in Eng
lish, and she has a major in English, or minor, as the
case may be, and certainly she is familiar with all the
other subject matter for this; but if the major is Eng
lish and she has had so many hours of English, her
courses are (stops)
[fol. 297] Q. Do you mean, then, you check the nature of
her academic work with the college from which she comes?

A. I do.
Q. Is that the measurement of scholarship that you

use?
A. Not entirely, but that enters into it, of course.
Q. What else enters into the matter of scholarship?
A. I would do, that check her academic work and her

professional work, of course, have in mind, of course, if
she has done any writing. Of course, that enters into it,
of course. Her professional attitude, certainly that enters
into it.

Q. Would that be a matter of scholarship, her attitude?
A. Not exactly, but you check into it.
Q. On the matter of scholarship, you take the aca

demic training and whether she has done research work?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In employing teachers, do you consider all A. B.’s

are the same thing? A. Why, certainly not.
Q. What else do you want to know?
A. Some of them might not he worth the paper they

are written on.
Q. Depending upon what?
A. Depending upon the credits of the school, if the

school is accredited by the Southern or North Central As-
[fol. 298] sociation we accept their standards.

Q. Are all A. B .’s from accredited colleges equal in
value?

171

A. On the face of it, if you have two A. B.’s from the
University of Arkansas, apparently they are, but other
things enter into it.

Q. If you have an A. B. from Talladega and one from
Yale?

A. I was at Yale when we had men come up from
Talladega, those men came to Yale and Harvard and
Chicago without reducing their credits.

Q. Would you just as soon employ men from Talla
dega as Yale or Harvard?

A. I would rather have them.
Q. Is there any other school as good?
A. There is no other school in the south that is superior

to Talladega.
Q. Are all A. B.s from Talladega of the same value?
A. Oh, of course not. All A. B.s, as such, are of the

same value if you don’t take into Consideration anything
else.

Q. Would you consider the type of the academic record
made by the applicant, whether an honor graduate or
whether the applicant merely scraped through?

A. Their credits shows up in that transcript.
Q. What else besides scholarship would you consider

in employing an applicant?
A. I take into, we take into account experience.

[fol. 299] Q. How would you? Would that simply be the
number of years? A. That would be it, partly.

Q. What else would enter into experience?
A. Of course, experience is not measured entirely in

terms of years or in terms of activity, but in achievement
and in terms of other things.

Q. And these other things are hard to evaluate?
A. So much so that very few people attempt to measure

any intangibles, you can’t do that, it is too speculative.
Q. Would you make any effort to measure that if you

were employing teachers and fixing the salaries?
A. I don’t know. While they do—it is difficult to fix

salaries on rating scales.
Q. Is it difficult to fix salaries on teaching ability?
A. It is very difficult to do that.
Q. Well, is it a fair thing to do?
A. If it is done by people who can carry it out and who

can actually rate them.

172

Q. Would you consider them, in employing and fixing
salaries, these intangibles?

A. In fixing basis for salaries, I wouldn’t go into that,
I would have in view the experience and training.

Q. In experience, you would have to consider what
is taught? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is there anything you would considpr in employing
[fol. 300] the applicants other than scholarship, training
and experience?

A. Well, that is the starting point, of course, training
and experience.

Q. Well, how much farther would you go from your
starting point?

A. You see, when it comes, if the student and if the
teacher comes from a first class school and has had ex
perience of the kind here, these things, they carry with
them, of course, naturally, character and some other things,
of course, in general.

Q. Have you ever found a teacher with an A. B. Degree
who was not a good teacher?

A. I certainly have.
Q. Have you found teachers with an A. B. Degree who

was a good teacher?
A. I have, yes, sir.
Q. Then you would place the employee merely on

scholarship as measured by degrees and experience ?
A. As a starting point.
Q. And what else would you use? I want to know fully

what else you would use in the fixing of salaries and em
ployment of teachers.

A. Well, if I was asked to fix salaries, a salary schedule,
I would give a very considerable study. You can’t do
[fol. 301] that offhand.

Q. I ’m not asking you to fix the salary schedule. I
am asking you to consider the individual.

A. As the individual, I would consider first his training.
Q. We have covered scholarship and training. What

else?
A. I presume I would judge the teacher as to character

and personality.
Q. Would look into those things?
A- So far as I could.

173

Q. If you found one that did not have personality, would
you employ that teacher!

A. I wouldn’t if it was left to me.
Q. Do all applicants have the same personality!
A. I wouldn’t say they did have the personality, all of

them.
Q. Necessarily, there would be variations?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And would you weigh these variances in personality

in fixing salaries!
A. That’s why I say I would not, they are too variable

to weigh.
Q. Well, you have these variances of personality.
A. It is hard to weigh character, it is hard to define, it

is too relative.
[fol. 302] Q. Would you attempt to do it!

A. We do with teachers generally, speak of good moral
character, but we are not able to evaluate character, and
ideals completely.

Q. Then can you not include weighing of character as
measurements of employing teachers!

A. I would be very cautious about that.
Q. Well, what else would you suggest for examination in

employing teachers ?
A. Certainly desirable (stops), there are a number of

things, of course, that enter into that. I don’t know, but the
thing that entered into it as basic would be her training
and experience.

Q. Now, we have covered those, and I do not want to
prolong this, but is there any other thing, would you not
place some consideration on character!

A. You see, really, these three things will cover the
whole thing. If you expand them sufficiently. Because
character means all these.

Q. Now in weighing this, isn’t it necessary to exercise
a certain amount of judgment and discretion!

A. You have to do that in any undertaking, you have to
exercise judgment and discretion.

Q. And that has to be done by the one who makes the
examination and employment. Is that true!
[fol. 303] A. That is right.

Q. Now, on the basis of this letter. Return again to the
comparison with Mr. Larson. He has had twenty-nine

174

years’ experience here, and I believe some experience
longer than you have had. A. That is right.

Q. Should that additional length of experience be con
sidered in connection with his salary?

A. It is so, yes, sir.
Q. If the Little Rock High School had a larger student

body than Dunbar, would his administrative difficulties be
any greater?

A. Yes, it is.
Q. If they are greater, would that be an element to be

considered in fixing his salary?
A. You can’t say if the school is larger than any other,

its got to be the measure.
Q. I am asking your opinion, Mr. Lewis. If one school

is larger than another and the administrative duties are
necessarily greater, is that a factor fairly to be con
sidered in fixing salaries? A. It seems reasonable.

Q. Will you state the amount of your salary?
A. I get $260.00 a month.
Q. I have it on record here as $2,742.17. Does that

[fob 304] sound about right?
A. That is right.
Q. If I told you that the salary of Mr. Larson is

$3,712.50, which is about $1,000.00 more than your salary,
are you able to say his salary is greater than it should he?

A. I couldn’t say that, it is not more than it should be,
it is not.

Q. Do you consider it out of proportion in comparison
with your own salary?

A. I should say “ yes” '—or (hesitates)
Q. Now, then, to what extent is it out of proportion?
A. I would have to do a little bit om mathematics, Mr.

Nash.
Q. Would you have to exercise your .judgment in passing

on these matters, the additional experience, the larger
student body, greater administrative duties, wouldn’t you
have to exercise your judgment in working out your
mathematics?

A. I would have to do some figuring.
Q. You would have to use your judgment, wouldn’t

you?

175

A. That enters into any equation, some judgment, I
hope.

Q. If the Little Rock School Board fixes his salary and
fixed your salary, the exercise of judgment would neces
sarily enter into this equation, would it not? Will you
answer the question so the reporter can hear you?
[fol 305] A. Ask the question again now, Mr. Nash.

(Reporter reads) :
Q. “ If the Little Rock School Board fixes his salary and

fixed your salary, the exercise of judgment would neces
sarily enter into this equation, would it not?”

A. There would have to be some judgment exercised,
surely.

Q. Do you consider it fair to compare your situation as
principal of a college and high school with any other
teacher or principal in the Little Rock Public School
System other than Mr. Larson?

A. Well, I would have in mind, of course, persons whose
capacity or position, of course, are comparable to mine.

Q. And you have said there is no other comparable
position?

A. As far as I know.
Q. And really if there is discrimination in your case, it

must be in comparison with Mr. Larson?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you happen to know any particular Arkansas

colleges for colored students are colleges accredited by the
North Central Association?

A. There is not a single colored school that is accredited
by any of the accrediting agencies. They are accredited
by the state but not the accrediting agencies.

Q. And the purpose of accrediting by the state is for
the purpose of teachers’ license?
(fol. 306] A. That is right.

Q. And it has no bearing on the credits?
A. It has none, that, is right.
Q. Do you recall recently whether you and Mr. Hamil

ton and Mr. Scohee discussed the teaching abilities of the
plaintiff in this case?

A. I do remember it, yes, sir.
Q Do you remember when that discussion was had?

176

A. About the first of May, Mr. Scobee made his first,
that is as far as I know, his first official visit to Dunbar.
Mr. Scobee, Mr. Hamilton and I observed a number of
teachers at Dunbar, and after having made this observation
we came back to my office and we did hold a conference
on a good many of these teachers, but not all, many of
them.

Q. Do you remember if you held a conference on Susie
Morris ? A. I do remember that.

Q. Do you know whether or not as a result of that
conference a rating was assigned Susie Morris'?

A. I do not know that, not a rating. We did discuss
it and take notes, but I know nothing of any rating there.

Q. Did you make any notes in the discussion?
A. No, not any notes of that discussion, we simply dis

cussed it.
Q. Do you have any formalized rating sheet that you

[fob 307] use, personally, in the rating of teachers?
A. Well, I wouldn’t say I have any specific or form

alized sheet. I think I did rate them.
Q. Have any such sheets been furnished in the last few

months?
A. They have never furnished me one, not the School

Board, never. This is the first I have seen, first rating-
sheet here.

Q. In visiting classrooms, how long is it necessary for
a trained observer to be there in order to form some esti
mate of the teacher’s ability?

A Well, you can, some estimate you can form in five
minutes.

Q. Well, I mean a reasonably accurate estimate.
A. Well, you have got to stay there some little time to

get a reasonable estimate of the teacher. You have to
make several visits. In one visit, of course, you can’t do
that.

Q. A number of visits over a period would form a
sufficient basis? A. Definitely so.

Q. Have you been before the School Board on matters
of discipline in connection with your work as principal of
Dunbar ?

A. Not as a question of discipline.

177

Q. Have you been before it for questioning, or inter
views in connection with any phase of your work at Dun
bar?
[fol. 308] A. Once in thirteen years.

Q. And what was the nature of that?
A. We dropped a teacher because that teacher was in

competent and that teacher held me responsible for it and
made a report to the School Board. The report was of this
nature: this teacher was in charge of night school funds,
and it is a fact that for some three or four times during that
year before she had reported these funds to the treasurer,
we had four or five times borrowed from that fund, and I
gave him my I. 0. U. for it, and when I put the money back,
I didn’t take up the notation, and when he was dropped he
reported to Mr. Hall and to other members of the School
Board, investigated it and they knew he had reported it
because he was prejudiced, and it was cleared up. It
didn’t go any farther.

Q. Did I understand, I didn’t clearly understand one
part of your statement. Did I understand you to say that
you borrowed from the fund?

A. That is right.
Q. You borrowed from the fund?
A. Yes, sir, three or four times.
Q. Was that a school fund?
A. It was not school money, that is right.
Q. Who was that money from?
A. It was derived from the collections of tuition, and

[fol. 309] this dean had to report the money to the treasurer
once a month.

Q. Treasurer of what?
A. We have a treasurer at Dunbar.
Q. He would make report to the Treasurer of Dunbar?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you borrow from this fund on more than one

occasion ?
A. There may have been more than one occasion. Of

course, it was all paid back.
Q. How many occasions did you borrow?
A. There were three or four, there may have been sev

eral, I don’t know.

12—12,887

178

Q. Was that with his knowledge and consent!
A. Definitely so.
Q. Did any other teachers borrow from this fund!
A. I don’t know of any others.
Q. Did you talk to any other person, talk to the School

Board about this!
A. I talked to Mr. Hamilton about it. Mr. Hamilton

knew about this, I talked to him.
Q. Did you talk to anybody else in connection with the

School Board about this?
A. No, I don’t recall that I did.
Q. How long ago was this?
A. That was some three or four years ago.

[fob 310] Q. About four years ago?
A. Three or four years ago, I have forgotten which

now.
Q. You have testified at some length about the teach

ing abilities of the plaintiff, Susie Morris. Are you pre
pared to compare her with white teachers in the Little
Rock Senior High School?

A. I have not observed any of the white teachers. I
have observed only Miss Morris and other teachers in
other junior schools.

Q. In fixing her salary and in fixing the salaries of
other teachers, would the School Board have to use some
discretion, as it would have to use in fixing yours and Mr.
Larson’s salaries?

A. I am not sure they would have to do that, I—
(stops) I don’t know what they would have to do, I—
(stops)

Q. Would you ask the School Board not to use any
judgment or discretion in fixing salaries?

A. I hope they will use judgment.
Q. Would you place their fixing of salaries only on the

basis of degrees and experience?
A. I would start there.
Q. And you said you would go from there in apprais

ing character, you said that before?
A. I said that was, as a basic starting point I would

start with scholarship and experience, certainly, in all
[fol. 311] phases of life character enters into it.

179

Q. Would you ask the School Board to consider the
character of Susie Morris and other teachers in fixing sal
aries? A. Not in fixing salaries.

Q. You would not ask them to consider character in
fixing salaries?

A. It is too intangible, this character phase, it is en
tirely too intangible.

Q. Would you eliminate all intangibles in fixing sal
aries? A. You would consider them, Mr. Nash.

Q. Would you eliminate them?
A. Certainly these things are to be considered, but you

have to have something to consider, you have to have some
thing. You can’t put your hand on them, you can’t give an
amount on that.

Q. Would you consider it? A. Yes, you might.
Q. When you come to fixing salaries, would you disre

gard them entirely?
A. We would be very cautious about it, because who is

able to do that?
Q. Would you use them or would you discard them?
A. Not in fixing salaries.
Q. Then you would discard them.
A. In fixing salaries, in rating teachers I Avould con

sider them.
[fol. 312] Q. But in fixing salaries?

A. That is a matter of intangibles you are talking
about.

Q. You would eliminate them? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Back again for a moment to this comparing, to this

borrowing of money, Mr. Lewis. What was the total
amount that you borrowed from the fund?

A. I am sure the whole thing wouldn’t amount to
$25.00. In other words, at intervals I will say, I would
say, “ Let me use three or four dollars until next week,”
and I would give him a note, and I wouldn’t collect them,
and when he was dropped he turned them over to Mr. El
liott, and Elliott turned them over to Mr. Reed, and they
found he was prejudiced.

Q. Prejudiced on the part of whom?
A. On this gentleman, the teacher.
Q. Was he a colored man?
A. Yes, sir.

180

Q. Perhaps you have answered this question before.
Over what period of time did this extend, this borrowing
of money?

A. Well, it was, oh, possibly, maybe three or four
months, I should say, at intervals.

Q. During that period of three or four months, but
not of a total of more than four or five dollars?

A. No, sir.
[fol. 313] Q. To whom did this money belong?

A. To the School Board, it was night school money.
Q. The School Board’s money?
A. Yes, sir. Not a dime was ever found wanting. I

have been there thirteen years, and they can come there
any day, and he has not found a penny missing, and if you
had a penny missing I would resign today. If the School
Board could check me one penny short, I would walk down
and resign the school.

Mr. Nash: That is all.
Redirect Examination.

By Mr. Marshall:
Q. In your term you have been at Dunbar, when you

come across inefficient teachers as to your rating of them,
what have you done about it?

A. Well, I have attempted to get rid of them, of course,
get rid of them, as I did on one occasion.

Q. You would not deliberately keep what you consid
ered an inefficient teacher at Dunbar?

A. We would not do that if I had my own way about it.
Mr. Marshall: That is all.
Mr. Nash: That is all.
The witness was excused.

[fol. 314] R. T. Scobee, sworn as a witness on behalf of
the plaintiff testified as follows on

Direct Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Your address, Mr. Scobee?
A. Home address 1708 North Monroe Street, Little

Rock.
Mr. Loughborough: Will you speak louder ?

181

A. 1708 North Monroe Street, Little Rock.
Mr. Marshall: You are Superintendent of Schools of

Little Rock? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And one of the defendants in this case?
A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Marshall: May it please the Court, may we proceed

under Rule 43 B as to this witness?
The Court: Yes.
Mr. Marshall: How long have you been superintendent

of schools in Little Rock?
A. I took office February the 1st, 1941.
Q. And prior to that time, what position did you hold?

[fob 315] A. I was Superintendent of Schools at Jeffer
son City, Missouri.

Q. And about how long have you been in the field of
administration of public school system?

A. I believe since 1923.
Q. And probably you have had occasion to appoint

teachers and fix salaries quite a bit?
A. Yes, sir, in the various school systems.
Q. And have you done a bit of studying on that ques

tion? A. Some, yes.
Q. What factors in general in administrative school

circles of public school systems, what are the facts that
are generally considered necessary to be used in fixing
the teachers’ salary?

A. Experience, training, information concerning the in
dividual fitness of the candidate, all the things that the em
ploying agency can find out about the individual in order
to form a judgment.

Q. Among the generally accepted media for the fixing
of salaries, is the use of the rating of the teaching ability
ever used for that purpose?

A. It is not generally used.
Q. Do you know of any school system that does use

it for the purpose of fixing salaries?
[fol. 316] Mr. Loughborough: I shall ask the witness to
speak a. little louder.

Mr. Marshall: Do you know of any school system where
it is used for that purpose? A. I don’t think I do.

Q. As a matter of fact, in the school service—strike
that—you are familiar with the National Educational
Association and its work? A. Yes, I am a member.

Q. You are a member of it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is it not true that in the several surveys they

have made they have found that the ratings are not used
in fixing salaries? A. Generally so, generally so.

Q. It is true that in some places the sex differentiation
is used?

A. Yes, I believe I found instances of that.
Q. Is it not also true in some situations race is used

as a media for fixing salaries?
A. I have not found any in my studies.
Q. So you do not know of any instance where this has

been used? A. No.
Q. In the Little Rock Public School System, all of the

[fol. 317] schools are in one system? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. They are all part of the same system? A. Yes.
Q. The fact you have separate schools for the races,

they are all the same system? A. Yes.
Q. And do you try to see that the same type of educa

tion is given in both the Negro and the white schools?
A. I make every effort to give that.
Q. Is the same type of education, that is, the same

given in the elementary for the colored and for the white
pupils? A. Yes, try to.

Q. What about the high school? Is that the same?
A. We try.
Q. What about the junior college?
A. The junior college is not recognized by the Arkansas

law.
Q. Do you not administer it?
A. In some sense.
Q. Don’t you try to give the same study? A. Yes.
Q. As a matter of fact, the junior white college is ac

credited ?
[fol. 318] A. Yes.

Q. And Dunbar is not? A. No.
Q. Why not? A. I don’t know.
Q. You try to give them the same teaching? A. Yes.
Q. As the high school, do you use the same course of

study? A. Practically the same.

183

Q. Practically the same? A. Yes.
Q. And at the present time the schools stay in the

same number of days a week? A. Yes.
Q. White and colored? A. Yes.
Q. They open and close on the same hours? A. Yes.
Q. Y ould you say that a graduate of the Negro Junior

College has received much the same training as the
graduate of the white Junior College?

A. I would say they would be very similar.
Q. Do you make a difference in the pay or salaries

between elementary and high school teachers?
A. Generally speaking, there is a difference.

[fol. 319] Q. You usually pay more for high school teach
ers than you do for elementary teachers?

A. Generally, that is the practice.
Q. Since you came into the system in 1941, has there

been any complete change in the salaries of the teachers?
A. There has not.
Q. In other words, they have been kept along on the

level you found when you come there?
A. Been a few adjustments, but in the main they are

much the same.
Q. Much the same? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that if the salaries before you came here were

based solely on the ground or say, sex, they still would be
going on on the same ground of sex?

A. To a certain extent, yes.
Q. And if it was based solely on the ground of race, it

still would be going on the grounds of race?
A. I don’t see that would apply in this case, Mr. Mar

shall.
Q. If I remember correctly, you have carried them

along in the main as they were.
A. In the majority of cases, I haven’t had much of

an opportunity to study the situation so as to make any
adjustments necessary.

Q. I will ask you if it is not a fact if prior to your
[fol. 320] coming into the system, the difference was based
solely on the grounds of race the same difference would
be carried on today?

A. It would be so in many cases.

184

Q. Have you visited in the Negro elementary schools
for the purpose of observing the teachers in their teach
ing? A. Yes, I have visited most of them.

Q. And you have observed the teachers?
A. In some cases as time permitted.
Q. Can you name any school in particular that you are

sure you visited for the purpose of visiting a teacher?
A. Yes, I have been in Capitol Hill School, I have

been in the South End School.
Q. Any others?
A. Yes, I have been in the Gibbs School on several

occasions.
Q. Have you observed the teaching of all the elementa

ry school teachers? A. I have not.
Q. Have you observed the teaching of all the teachers

at Dunbar? A. No.
Q. Then, in your own personal knowledge, you would

be unable to estimate the teaching ability of all the Negro
teachers? A. That is right.

Q. When a teacher—as I understand it, you have teach-
[fol. 321] ers regularly file application blanks in your
office for teaching positions in Little Rock?

A. Many of them.
Q. When there is a vacancy in any school, what is the

procedure of picking a teacher to fill that vacancy?
A. They look over all the applicants which in all the

information indicates would fit that position, and we se
lect a few of the ones in our judgment that would be
best fitted for us and investigate these candidates.

Q. When you say you investigate, what do you mean?
A. We obtain all of the information possible to obtain

upon them.
Q. And then you select one applicant for the one po

sition? A. Yes.
Q. Well, in the selecting of an applicant for a teach

ing position in the white high school, you only consider
white applicants? A. That is right.

Q. And for teaching in Dunbar, you only consider
Negro applicants? A. That is right.

Q. Afterwards, at the selection of the teacher, how do
you go about the question of fixing the salary of that
teacher? ,

185

A. We have in the budget of the District a certain
amount set aside for instructional purposes, and it is the
[fol. 322] business of the Superintendent, in conjunction
with the Personnel Committee, to divide that money up
so it will fit the proportion made by the Board.

Q. How do you arrive at the particular figure, I mean,
for example, $810,001

A. We arrive at that figure generally by determining
the type of work that applicant is to do.

Q. Do you take into consideration the amount that the
applicant puts on the application blank as the least amount
they will accept?

A. To some extent, however in many cases that is not
the guiding factor at all.

Q. Isn’t that true, that in many cases you pay them
more than the amount they say they will accept?

A. Yes.
Q. How does that happen?
A. Because in our judgment they are worth more.
Q. And you pay them what they are worth?
A. So far as we are able to determine.
Q. Since you have been Superintendent, have you run

across any Negro applicant, where regular teaching is
concerned, from a manual training to a principalship, have
you run across any applicants for teaching who would be
worth $810.00? A. No, sir.
[fol. 323] Q. You think all of them were worth less than
that? A. The ones we have hired are.

Q. On what ground? Have they not had degrees from
accredited schools? A. Yes.

Q. Have years of experience? A. Yes.
Q. And compare with some of the white teachers?
A. Yes.
Q. Why do you think they were not worth as much as

white teachers?
A. Because using the fact of judgment, I don’t think

they were worth that.
Q. Well, what was it you used?
A. All of the things I found out about them as an indi

vidual.
Q. What, for example.
A. Oh, it might have been their scholarship, it might

have been their training.

186

Q. I am talking about those that came from good, ac
credited schools.

A. Or their personality.
Q. Have you come across some that have as good per

sonality as white teachers? A. No.
Q. You don’t find any that had everything that the

[fol. 324] white teacher had? A. No, I did not.
Q. Since you have been here? A. No.
Q. You have Mabel Thomas, one white teacher that

you made a mistake on? A. Yes, sir.
Q. She was a home economics teacher? A. Yes.
Q. And you paid her $900.00?
A. I think something like that.
Q. Can you give any reason why she was paid almost

$200.00 more than Susie Morris?
A. It was an error in my judgment.
Q. Well, what was it, in your mind, that permitted you

to make that mistake of giving her that $900.00?
A. One thing, her recommendations were better than

her subsequent experience proved.
Q. So sometimes recommendations are not so good?
A. That is right.
Q. And you believe that no colored teacher that has

been hired since 1941 is worth the limit you paid to white
teachers? A. That is my judgment.

Q. Now, when you say worth to the system, you mean
worth within the budget of the system or do you mean the
[fol. 325] general statement of worth to the system?

A. I mean a general statement.
Q. You do not take into consideration the fact you can

get them cheaper? A. I do not.
Q. Isn’t it true that you work on the theory that you

can get Negro teachers for less than you can get the
white teacher?

A. Not necessarily. The evidence in the last year has
borne that out, however.

Q. Don’t you use the question of what you can get them
for in the consideration of what you are going to pay
them? A. Not necessarily, no.

Q. Do you take it into consideration at all?
A. To a certain extent, because Ave have to keep the

budget balanced.

187

Q. I will ask you the same question that I asked some
other witnesses this morning. Would you be willing to
pay the Negro teachers the same money as you do the
white ?

A. If they were worth the same in my judgment, I
would.

Q. Have you made a study of the matter?
A. Only a cursory study.
Q. And you haven’t got into it?
A. Not completely, no.
Q. Well, have you checked the teachers that are com-

[fol. 326] pared with the plaintiff in this case, Susie Mor
ris? A. Not definitely, no.

Q. Well, do you know, for example, that Susie Morris
and twenty-four other Negro teachers in the Dunbar High
School get less salary than any white school teacher here
in the system? A. I think that is true.

Q. Do you consider that every one of these teachers is
inferior to every other white teacher?

A. Not necessarily, because I haven’t had an oppor
tunity to observe either one of them.

Q. Well, do you think that Susie Morris and these
twenty-four other teachers in the Dunbar are less valuable
to the school system, all of whom have experience of years
and with college degrees, for the most part, from an ac
credited school, are less valuable to the school system
than a white teacher with no experience?

A. Not as a group, as individuals there might he a dif
ference.

Q. But you don’t think that whole group is inferior?
A. Not as a group.
Q. How can you account for the fact they get less?
A. Because the group, as such, was made up of a num

ber of individuals.
Q. How can you explain, for example, the fact that

[fol. 327] Bernice Bass, teaches home economics, and who
I understand is a very good teacher. Is that correct?

A. Yes, she is a good teacher.
Q. Only gets $720.00? A. That is right.
Q. And she was just raised to that.
A. That is right.
Q. And how can you explain the fact that she gets

less than the worst white teacher?

1 8 8

A. Well, we were making adjustments.
Q. Well, taking those you know about, do you consider

Miss Bernice Bass as valuable to the school system of
Little Rock as the worst teacher you have, white teacher
you have in the school system?

A. Would you name an individual?
Q. Name an individual? A. Yes.
Q. Yes, what about M. C. Moser, teaching in Senior

High, with an A. B. Degree, who gets $1536.98?
A. I know him.
Q. You consider him more valuable?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Why? A. Because he is a better teacher.
Q. He is a better teacher?

[fol. 328] A. Yes.
Q. All right. What about Mrs. Guy Irby?
A. She is a substitute and is not on a, regular salary.
Q. Do you consider Mrs. Guy Irby, a substitute, as

more valuable to the system than Miss Bernice Bass?
A. Yes, I do. She is a most excellent mathematics

teacher.
Q . According to this, she is history, and no experience.
A. She has always been carried as a substitute since I

have been here.
Q. You consider her more valuable than James D.

Scott with an M. A. Degree, teaching at Dunbar ?
A. As the circumstances stand, and under the circum

stances, yes, because we have to have a good mathematics
teacher we can call suddenly.

Q. You consider her more valuable than you do Scott?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember the study hall teacher, Miss

Jewell Stone? A. I recall her, I believe.
Q. I understand she is a study hall keeper and not a

teacher? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And she is more valuable to the system than Miss

Bass? A. I don’t know whether she is or not.
Q. You asked me to give you specific cases. You con

sider her more valuable to the system than Miss Bass?
A. The only thing I can give you about that is her long

[fol. 329] tenure.
Q. How long a tenure? Long tenure?
A. I think so, but I don’t know.

189

Q. In making these decisions, what are you using?
A. I am using my best judgment.
Q. How about Mrs. Catherine Lee?
A. Where does she teach?
Q. She teaches on the East Side Junior High with six

years’ experience. She gets $1060.00.
A. I have not observed her work.
Q. So you would not know how she happens to get

more? A. No.
Q. Can you deny that these salaries are set up on race?
A. So far as I am concerned, they are not set up on

race.
Q. You don’t know how these figures were arrived at?
A. I do not.
Q. All you are doing is carrying on as you found it?
A. So far as the total amount of money spent, I am

trying to do that.
Q. You made none or very few changes?
A. Very few.
Q. You don’t know any place where you raised one up

to the white level? A. I don’t recall any.
Q. And the one you did raise, Miss Bass, you did not

[fob 330] raise to the white level?
A. No, I don’t think so.
Q. You think she is a very good teacher?
A. Yes, she is.
Q. Let’s get on down the list, Mr. Scobee. We have

Miss Rhoda Wharry, B. S. E. teaching English, no experi
ence in Little Rock, two years outside, $900.00. How do
you explain that?

A. I thought she was worth it.
Q. Isn’t it a fact that all of the white high school teach

ers you have employed since you have been here you have
paid them $900.00? A. I believe that is correct.

Q. And all the white elementary teachers you have em
ployed you paid them $810.00?

A. And some more than that.
Q. None below that? A. I do not recall any.
Q. Isn’t it true that all of the Negro teachers you have

employed as regular teachers have been paid either
$615.00 or $630.00? A. Most of them.

Q. And those you pay more were given more because
they were teaching specialized subjects?

190

A. Yes, we thought they were worth more.
[fol. 331] Q. And since you have been here, you have
stayed within these two levels? A. Yes.

Q. And you believe the Negro teachers are only worth
$615.00 and $630.00?

A. No, not as a general statement.
Q. Do you know Miss H. B. Campbell, a teacher at

Dunbar? A. I know her.
Q. Have you observed her teaching? A. No.
Q. Do you know she is a Bachelor of Science?
A. No, I didn’t know it.
Q. And gets $859.00, with fourteen years’ experience,

$41.00 less than paid any of the white teachers with an
A. B. Degree, or less. Would you say that was justified?

A. It may or may not be justified, depending upon the
kind of teacher she is.

Q. Is it not true that you do not have a single teacher
in the school system with a Master’s Degree getting
$4,000.00, white teacher?

A. I could not say about that.
Q. Let’s take the Masters teaching English, just the

Masters, Miss Louise Beasley, M. A., teaching eleven years
of experience, gets $1338.40; Miss Edith Leidy, with an
M. A., five years’ experience in Little Rock, gets $1243.00;
[fol. 332] Miss Emma Scott, fifteen years, an M. A., gets
$1350.00. Miss Minnie Lee Mayhan, teaching five years
in Little Rock and gets $1128.75; and she has an M. A.;
Miss Evelyn Clauson, an M. A., with five years, gets
$1045.00. So that all of the teachers, white teachers, teach
ing English in the white high school, with M. A. Degree,
gets from $1045.00 up, beyond, and Miss Campbell gets
$859.00. Can you give any reason for that?

A. I don’t know the reason.
Q. Do you know and have you ever observed James

Scott teaching? A. No.
Q. How about S. P. Massie?
A. I do not recall him as an individual.
Q. How about J. L. Wilson?
A. I have visited his class.
Q. What kind of teacher is Mr. Wilson?
A. He is a pretty good teacher.
Q. Do you consider him as good as some of the science

teachers in the white school?

191

A. In the face of my limited investigation, I would
dislike to pass on that, it might be unfair.

Q. I think he has an M. A. Degree. A. Yes.
Q. And he has had nine years in Little Rock School

[fol. 333] System and elsewhere?
A. I don’t know about his experience.
Q. Isn’t it true you have hired white teachers of less

experience and less degrees and given them more money
than you are paying him?

A. How much was his salary?
Q. His salary was $1039.00.
A. You mean in my administration?
Q. I mean on the payroll as of now.
A. I think the payroll would bear that out.
Q. I mean in that bracket, the level for the white teach

ers Avould be higher.
A. What do you mean?
Q. The Master’s level.
A. I think you have quoted figures to that effect.
Q. As a matter of fact, is it not true you have a teach

er, Mr. or Mrs. E. A. Bowen, at the West Side Junior
High School, no college degree, eighteen years’ experience,
he gets $1882.00? A. It may be true.

Q. But you don’t know how these figures came about?
A. I am not sure of those.
Q. But you have carried on those as you found it?
A. Not completely, but in the main as far as the budg

et would permit.
[fol. 334] Q. Would all of the changes you have made
appear in the minutes?

A. There has not been very many of them, however,
but they would.

Q. But they would all appear in the minutes, wouldn’t
they? A. I think so.

Q. It is true, is it not, that the majority of the teach
ers at Dunbar have degrees out of accredited colleges?

A. I believe the ratio is better than two to one.
Q. They do about the same work as the teachers in the

High School? A. Yes, sir, in the main, yes.
Q. They do the same courses of study?
A. They use the same text books, in the main, and fol

low the same courses of study.

192

Q. But you can’t give any reason why they get smaller
salaries than the white teachers'?

Q. I don’t know except some of them are not as good
teachers.

Q. You don’t know about some of them.
A. That is right.
Q. So in fixing up the salaries for 1941-42, you did

not fix them on the basis of their teaching ability?
A. Not entirely.
Q. On the basis of merit? A. Not entirely.

[fol. 335] Q. Does merit enter into it at all in 1940-41?
A. In some cases.
Q. Have you ever observed or visited Dunbar to ob

serve the teaching?
A. I observed the teaching, and I visited the office.
Q. So you could not fix the salaries of the teachers in

Dunbar on any merit basis? A. That is right.
Q. You could not?
A. That is right, I have said so, but my funds are

limited.
Q. Are you in position to deny that the salaries you met

when you came here were not based on race or color?
A. I am not in position to know how they were set up.
Q. N oav, in the fixing of salaries since you have been

here, when you consider a position in the white schools
you consider white teachers? A. That is right.

Q. And for the colored schools you consider Negro
teachers? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And when you made your recommendation to the
Personnel Committee, you designated the schools?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. So they knew the difference? A. Yes.
Q. And when that Personnel’s Committee report is

[fol. 336] made to the Board, the Board knows it?
A. I doubt if they know in all cases, because they don’t

go into the Personnel Committee report in detail.
Q. Up until recently, has the Board always designated

the teacher as white or colored?
A. I don’t know.
Q. You have not paid much attention to it?
A. No.
Q. What about the petition the Negro teachers pre

sented to have their salaries equalized?

193

A. It is on file.
Q. What action was taken?
A. Wasn’t any.
Q. Well, you wrote the City Teachers’ Association,

didn’t you?
A. I do not recall.
Q. I show you this letter of May 19, 1941, and ask you if

this is your signature.
A. That is right. I think the minutes will reflect this.
Mr. Marshall: If your Honor please, may we have this

introduced and marked Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 5?
The Court: Any objection?

Mr. Loughborough: No.

The above document marked Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 5.

(Shown following the Testimony in this printed record.)
[fob 337] Q. Do you have the original of the petition
presented by the Negro teachers?

A. I don’t know, Mr. Marshall. I believe it is on file in
the Board office.

Q. Could you check this against it and see if that’s a
copy? A. I presume so.

Q. The petition did set out, did it not, and allege there
was a discrimination in the city against the race?

A. I am not sure but I believe it did.
Q. And you told them you were trying to maintain the

status quo and you said, I believe, you didn’t have money
enough to do anything about it?

A. So far as the finances of the District, of this, the
Finance Committee on the Board considered that and by
implication denied it, in April.

Q. You remember the supplementary payment for
money received from the state to teachers in 1941?

A. ’ Yes.
Q. As I understand it, there was a sum of money set

aside by the state for distribution to the teaching person
nel in Little Rock and other places.

A. It came, the majority of it, from state funds, yes.

13—12,887

194

Q. What steps were taken to work out a plan for distri
bution of this money?

A. A committee was appointed to bring in a recom-
[fol. 338] mendation to the Superintendent and Board.

Q. Who appointed the committee? A. I did.
Q. Who were the members of the committee?
A. W. F. Hays, Principal of Oakhurst.
Q. He is a white person?
A. Yes, and Eula McCreight, the primary teacher in

Mitchell, I believe, and Mabel Irvine, junior high school
teacher of East Side, and Olive Smith, an elementary
teacher of Forest Park, and Helen Hall, a teacher in the
Little Rock Senior High School.

Q. They are all white teachers? A. Yes.
Q. And this money was to be distributed to both white

and colored teachers, was it not? A. Yes.
Q. And you say that you referred this matter out to the

Teachers’ Committee?
A. Yes, to get a basis.
Q. Well, why did you not also refer to the Negro

teachers for their advice?
A. I don’t recall the reason.
Q. Could the reason be you didn’t want their advice?
A. No, I wouldn’t say that.
Q. Then can you give any reason for it?

[fol. 339] A. No.
Q. Is it not true that committee came back and made

a report? A. That is right.
Q. And it reported, that report was presented to the

Personnel Committee and then to the Board?
A. It went to the Finance Committee.
Q. Finance Committee and then to the Board?
A. Yes.
Q. And was adopted by the Board? A. Yes.
Q. I show you two sheets of paper marked Plaintiff,

for our identification, 3-A and 3-B, addressed to all of the
employees of the Little Rock Special School District and
ask you if these are two bulletins [set] out by you.

A. Yes, after the Board had made the apportionment
on the basis of the report.

Mr. Marshall: Any objection to admitting them in evi
dence ?

195

Mr. Loughborough: No.
Mr. Marshall: May they be admitted in evidence, if

Your Honor please?
The Court: Yes.
Exhibits 3-A and 3-B admitted in evidence and will be

found following the Testimony in this printed record.
[fol. 340] Mr. Scobee, I will ask you if they are not
identical with regard to every figure except 5 and 7.

A. I think they are.
Q. And isn’t it true that Plaintiff’s Exhibit 3-A said

one dollar and a half per point would be awarded to each
teacher? A. That is right.

Q. And in 3’-B it says three dollars per point to be
awarded each teacher? A. That is right.

Q. Is it not true that 3-A was sent to all the colored
teachers? A. Yes, sir.

Q. 3-B was sent to all white teachers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that under this rule, all white teachers got three

dollars per unit, and all Negro teachers got one dollar
and a half per unit?

A. That is right.
Q. Was there any way possible under that rule for a

Negro teacher to get more than a dollar and a half per
unit? A. I believe not.

Q. Was there any way under that rule for a white
teacher to get less than three dollars per unit?

A. I think not.
Q. Is it not true after units were figured out, so far

[fol. 341] as the office was concerned, the factor determin
ing whether they got three dollars or a dollar and a half
was the race of the teacher?

A. I don’t know about that. The committee turned in
the report and figured out the amount for each one and
presented them to the business office.

Q. What I am getting at, Mr. Scobee, you have gone
over these? A. Yes.

Q. And you know what it is ?
A. That is right.

196

Q. You take the individual teachers and work out how
many points they are entitled to, that is, the whole list of
teachers. A. That is right.

Q. And what is there, besides race, which would deter
mine whether the teacher would get one dollar and a half or
three dollars per unit?

A. I don’t see anything.
Q. At that point? A. At that point.
Q. Take one of these sheets, and taking the plaintiff in

the case, Susie Morris, she has six years’ experience, and
how many points would she get for that? A. One.

Q. She has an A. B. Degree. How many points would
she get?
[fol. 342] A. Five.

Q. She makes $706.00. How many points would she get
for that? A. Six.

Q. So she would get the total of— A. Twelve.
Q. Twelve points. And being colored she would get

one dollar and fifty cents, or a dollar and a half times
twelve, $18.00?

A. That’s what she would get.
Q. That’s what she would get?
A. Yes.
Q. What about teachers without any experience ? Where

do they fall in that schedule ?
A. They don’t get anything, because I recall it in

the preliminary (stops), that all employees of the Special
School District during 1940-41, they had to be on assign
ment one year.

Q. Let’s take Mrs. Catherine Lee, a white teacher in
the junior high school. She has six years’ experience.
How many points would she get? A. One.

Q. She has an A. B. Degree.
A. Five.
Q. And she makes $1060.00.

[fol. 343] A. Gets six.
Q. H oav many points would she get?
A. I believe that totals twelve.
Q. And that is the same number that Susie Morris gets ?
A. Yes.
Q. But Mrs. Lee would get $36.00?
A. So this schedule shows.

197

Q. And she gets that because she is white?
A. I don’t know.
Q. As between the two women, is there anything to keep

Susie Morris from getting $36.00 except she is colored?
A. I don’t see anything at the present time.
Q. And didn’t the representative of the Negro

Teachers’ Association come to you and make an objection
to that method of distribution?

A. Yes, I think it did.
Q. And subsequent to that time, in this year, didn’t you

make another distribution, or another payment? A. Yes.
And didn’t you still distribute it on the same basis ?
A. Yes.
Q. You feel there is any discrimination in there because

of race?
A. Well, I don’t know. The committee would have to

answer that.
[fol. 344] Q. Can you see any other, other than race?

A. I don’t see any.
Q. Yet you approved it and recommended it to the

Board?
A. Well, it went through my hands, yes.
Q. You can give no other reason other than race, can

you?
A. I am not sure about that, that was the committee’s

idea.
Q. Do you think it would be fair in this going—strike

that—I notice in the naming of that committee you took
pains to name representatives of each level of school,
elementary, high school, junior high school and junior
college.

A. I think that was a matter of chance.
Q. Did you do that to get a cross-section?
A. Well, no, I think they were rather chosen by their

leadership in the profession.
Q. You mean by that, all the teachers are in the white

teachers’ association?
A. I don’t know whether they are or not.
Q. Don’t you think this matter should have been re

ferred to some Negro teachers?
A. It might have been advisable.
Q. But you didn’t do it ?

198

A. No.
Q. If I understand you correctly, you didn’t even con

sider doing it.
[fol. 345] A. I don’t know as I ever thought about it.

Q. I think that’s about all, Mr. Nash.

Whereupon the Court announced a recess for five
minutes, after which the Court re-convened pursuant to
order for recess.

R. T. Scobee, on
Cross-Examination.

By Mr. Nash:
Q. Mr. Scobee, I believe you succeeded Mr. Hall as

Superintendent of our public school system? A. I did.
Q. Have you any personal knowledge of how the school

system was conducted prior to the time you came?
A. Very little.
Q. Where is Mr. Hall now?
A. He is confined to his home by illness.
Q. Is he so ill that he is unable to make his appearance

in Court, so far as you know?
A. So far as I know, yes, he is unable to see company.

I have called upon him two or three times in the last week
and have not been let in.

Q. You have stated somewhat your experience in ad-
ministratve work, and by way of elaboraton of what high
school, from what high school did you graduate?

A. The Forest High School, Forest, Missouri.
[fol. 346] Q. Are you a native of Missouri?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall when you graduated from the high

school there? A. In 1918, I believe.
Q. Did you go to college from there? A. Yes.
Q. To what college did you go?
A. University of Missouri.
Q. How long were you there?
A. Well, I was there about five years.
Q. What degree, did you obtain a degree from the Uni

versity of Missouri? A. Two.
Q. What degrees are they?

199

A. Bachelor of Science and Education and Master of
Arts.

Q. Do you recall when you obtained your Bachelor of
Science and Education, or B. S. E. Degree?

A. About 1923.
Q. When did you obtain your Master of Arts Degree?
A. 1927.
Q. Were those years for an M. A. Degree taken con

secutively after your Master and B. S. E. Degree?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Upon receiving your B. S. E. Degree, what work

did you do?
[fob 347] A. I was principal of a junior high school in
Chillicothe, Missouri, the year I received my B. S. E.
Degree.

Q. Was that 1923?
A. I was principal the year before.
Q. How long were you principal there? A. Two years.
Q. Would that be 1925 when you left?
A. No, I left either in 1921 or 1923.
Q. Where did you go from there?
A. To the Superintendency at Paris.
Q. Of the public school system of Paris, Missouri?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That was in the year 1923? A. I believe 1923.
Q. How long were you there, Mr. Scobee, in that Ca

pacity? A. Until January, 1935.
Q. Were you there continuously? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you receive any training in other schools in

the interim?
A. Yes, sir, in 1928, ’29, ’30, ’31, I went to the Colum

bia University in New York City.
Q. Did you obtain a degree from that institution?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What degree did you obtain there?

[fob 348] A. Master of Arts.
Q. And have you qualified for a Master of Arts

Degree twice?
A. Yes, sir, for the reason that the diploma in edu

cational administration at Columbia is predicated on two
years of graduate work, and the rule of the University
required that the degree be taken out before the diploma
would be issued, therfore I have two Master Degrees.

200

Q. You left the public school system of Paris, Missouri
in 1935? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And where did you go from there?
A- -bo the State Department of Education in Missouri,

located in Jefferson City.
Q. For a moment, back to the time you are at Paris.

In what capacity were you employed there?
A. In Paris?
Q. Yes. A, City Superintendent.
Q. Is that the same type of work you have been doing

here? A. Generally, on a smaller scale.
Q. Then what type of work did you do in connection

with the State Superintendent?
A. I was Assistant to the Superintendent.
Q. The State Superintendent of Education?
A. Yes, sir.

[fol. 348%] Q. What type of work was that, administra
tive?

A. It was all administrative. I was director of cer
tain departments and had general supervision of the
school finances of the state.

Q. How long did you serve in that capacity?
A. Six years.
Q. From there, where did you go?
A. To the City Principalship of Jefferson City.
Q. Do you recall about the time you took that position^
A. I believe that was at least 1937.
Q. How much, how large a town was Paris, Missouri?
A. Oh, about two thousand people, a little county seat.
Q. How much of a town is Jefferson City?
A. Twenty-four or twenty-five thousand.
Q. How long did you serve as superintendent in Jef

ferson City?
A. F rom that date in 1937 until February, 1941, when

I came here.
Q. Aie you able to say approximately how many

teachers you had in your administration in Jefferson
City? A. I believe there was 135 or 140.

Q. Of that number, how many were colored, do you
recall?

A. Oh, six or seven, not over that many. One small
school.

201

Q. Did you have a salary schedule in the City of Jeffer
son City?
[fol. 349] A. One was developed during my administra
tion.

Q. What was the nature of that salary schedule? Was
it a single salary schedule? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did it apply the same for white teachers as for
colored teachers? A. Yes.

Q. When you came to the City of Little Bock, did you
make any investigation to determine whether a salary
schedule was in effect here?

A. I remember distinctly asking the Board of Educa
tion when I was brought here for interview whether, that
was one of my questions, about the situation as to whether
or not they had a schedule.

Q. And what was told you? A. They said “ no” .
Q. Since you have been here, have you made a study

of the minutes of the School Board to determine whether
such a schedule has been in effect?

A. I have looked over the minutes.
Q. Can you say about what date you began?
A. I went back about as far as 1925.
Q. What did you find?
A. Well, I didn’t find any schedule in the minutes.
Q. State whether or not you found any directions on

the part of the School Board fixing the minimum salaries
[fol. 350] at which teachers should be employed?

A. I found none.
Q. During the time that you have been here and serv

ing in your capacity, has the School Board ever indicated
to you any figure at which teachers must be employed?

A. Not on an individual basis.
Q. Was it on a group basis?
A. Yes, sir, there is a certain amount appropriated

by the Board for instructional purposes, and I am re
quired by them, both by direction of the Board and public
policy, to live within that budget.

Q. Was any figure designated by the Board for the
employment of white teachers? A. They have not.

Q. Was any specific figure indicated by the Board for
the employment of colored teachers?

A. There has been none.

202

Q. Are you subject to the direction of the Finance
Committee in employing teachers?

A. Only in a general sense.
Q. Has the Finance Committee ever instructed as to

the figures to be observed in the employment of teachers?
A. They have not.
Q. During the time that you served as Superintendent

at Paris, Missouri, did you employ teachers?
[fol. 351] A. Yes, I recommended teachers like I do here.

Q. During the time you served at Jefferson City, did
you interview applicants for teaching positions and make
recommendations? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you do that now? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In connection with employing teachers, please de

scribe in some detail the procedure through which you go.
A. Well, there are filed numerous applications in refer

ence, applications for potential positions. These appli
cations are filed on a regular commercial application
blank, and when a vacancy occurs, they are sorted out and
the ones that seem on the basis of the information given
on the blank as being nearest, most likely to fit the situ
ation acceptably are investigated. This investigation is
an effort on my part to find out all I can about the indi
vidual. It consists usually of a personal interview; if
they are a graduate of a school or from a school, we get
the report of the placement bureau as to their fitness;
then, on the blank is given a number of names of people
whom they know and whom they certify as being able to
speak of them, letters are written individually to these
persons whom they have spoken of as being able to speak
for their worth. Questions are asked the candidates in
[fol. 352] some cases, their college transcripts are ex
amined, and if everything has been exhausted, as time per
mits, the judgment is formed and the one selected from
the group whom Ave consider professionally the best able
to perform the work which the vacancy Calls for. Infor
mation on this candidate is presented in some detail to
the Personnel Committee and Board of Directors, and at
that time I am questioned if they don’t know the candi
date. In some cases they do know the candidate, because
we have many local candidates, and I answer these ques
tions on the basis of the information which I have ob
tained. Then the Personnel Committee, acting upon that,

203

presents the recommendation to the Board which is the
employing agency.

Q. Are these application blanks the same for the one
race as for the other? A. Absolutely.

Q. Do you make the same type of investigation for
the one as for the other? A. Absolutely.

Q. Do you make any investigation of the experience
where the applicant has been employed elsewhere before
coming here?

A. If they have had experience, we like a statement
from someone who has observed their experience.

Q. Well, will you explain what you mean by that?
[fol. 353] A. Oh, from their superintendent or super
visor. Often a letter is desired from someone who has
observed their experience.

Q. Why do you ask for that?
A. It will help me to form a judgment and substitute

it in lieu of my own observation and other matters.
Q. In considering the academic record of an applicant

out of a given college, what study do you make of the
scholarship of the applicant?

A. I like to get at least two statements, and some
times more, if they are available, from the supervisors
from whom they have had their major work at the college.

Q. From your experience in conducting such investi
gations, what conclusion have you formed, if yau have
such a conclusion, as to the efficiency of this method of
determining an applicant’s ability? _ \

A. Well, it is the best we have, it has some things
wrong with it, because any new entry teacher in a new
system is something of a gamble; but it is the best we have,
I think.

Q. Do you know of any better procedure? A. No.
Q. In employing a teacher, do you give regard to

whether that person has a degree?
A. Yes, generally they are preferred.

[fol. 354] Q. Do you give consideration to the experi
ence the applicant may have had?

A. Yes, if we believe it was done under desirable cir
cumstances.

Q. Is there anything else other than degree and ex
perience to be considered?

A. Oh, yes, they are only basic.

204

Q. Is that the starting point? A. Perhaps.
Q. How much farther would you go?
A. Oh, much farther than that.
Q. Will you explain?
A. Well, you have got to know more about the teacher

and individual before you can form a judgment. There
are many people with degrees that can’t teach school.
There’s a lot of intangibles enter into it, honesty, sym
pathy, personality, ability to get along with people, abil
ity to give directions, conversational method, any number
of things enter into the net worth and whole picture of a
teaching candidate.

Q. Is character part of an A. B. Degree, or is it some
thing separate from it?

A. I could visualize any number of degrees of char
acter could still get an A. B. degree. I don’t think there is
any connection, much, between them.
[fol. 355] Q. Are you able to accept the fact that the
applicant has an A. B. Degree as conclusive evidence of
character? A. Never have considered it such.

Q. Do you try to make some independent appraisal of
character?

A. We would like to get something that would indicate
character from someone who knows the individual.

Q. Considering the desirability of an applicant as a
teacher, do you try to form some estimate of the appli
cant’s ability to use educational plans?

A. I try to find all I can about the individual profes
sionally, and that is one point of interest that enters into
the professional estimate of a candidate.

Q. Do you try to inquire into the candidate’s ability to
develop an objective in teaching?

A. Yes, sir, that’s a part of her professional equipment.
Q. Where the applicant has had previous experience,

do you try to ascertain the person’s ability to maintain
class standards?

A. Yes, I ask the superintendent or principal that ques
tion.

Q. Do your investigations also cover the point of use
of recognized teaching methods?

A. Yes, sir, that is particularly true in the case of can
didates without experience that are coming to us from

205

placement bureas. We like to check that through their
practice teaching.
[fob 356] Q. In seeking information from the place
ment bureaus, do you question that particularly?

A. Very generally, yes.
Q. Are you able to determine anything about an appli

cant’s ability to recognize individual differences?
A. That comes largely from the director or practice

teacher or from an experienced teacher or from a, super
visor who knows their work.

Q. Are you able to make any appraisal as to pupil re
sponse as to any particular candidate before you?

A. That is part of the teaching?
Q. Well, would you do that, go about determining that

in an applicant?
A. Second-handed from people who have observed him

from work.
Q. Do you try to make an appraisal of the applicant’s

skill in questioning? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you make an effort to appraise the professional

relationships ?
A. If they are an experienced teacher, that is very val

uable: if they are an inexperienced teacher, that is a ques
tion of their attitude toward their profession as devel
oped in the school, but we definitely do try to find that out.

Q. In examining an applicant who is new to the sys-
[fol. 357] tern, are you able to make a determination rel
ative to esteem of parents?

A. No, if they have never had any teaching experience.
Q. Are you able to make any appraisal of that person

or teacher’s use of teaching materials?
A. Yes, sir, if they have done practice teaching.
Q. Do you check into the community activities of the

applicant?
A. Yes, we would like to know about that.
Q. How do you do that?
A. Usually by letter to someone who knows them.
Q. Do you always find you have response to your let

ters?
A. In the majority of cases, we do ; there are always

some who never reply to it.
Q. Do you attempt to give any weight to personal ex

ample in interviewing your applicants?

206

A. Yes, we look upon that as one of the elements of
character, personality. If they don’t look right, we eval
uate accordingly.

Q. In your judgment as one charged with conducting
examinations of the applicants, do your consider all of
these elements necessary for consideration?

A. We think, I think, I think they would be generally
recognized as such.

Q. Could these various matters be considered as in
tangibles ?

A. Some of them, or some of them are rather ob
jectives.
[fol. 358] Q. In regard to those that are objectives, is
there any room for the exercise of discretion and judg
ment? A. There always is, yes.

Q. What would be your attitude if you were requested
to interview and recommend candidates on the basis of
their having degrees and experience, the experience being
determined by the number of years only.

A. Well, I would say that those are two factors, are
very limited in getting the full picture of the candidate’s
work.

Q. Would you like, in recommending applicants in the
Public School System of Little Eock, to take into consid
eration only the degrees and number of years they may
have taught? A. I would not do that.

Q. In your capacity as superintendent, do you also
recommend salaries for applicants?

A. Yes, sir, in conjunction with the minutes of the Per
sonnel Committee.

Q. What would be your attitude—strike that—In con
sidering the salary for any particular applicant, state
whether or not—strike that, please—State would you con
sider, Avhat would you consider?

A. Will you repeat the question, please.
Q. In recommending specific salaries for specific in

dividuals, on what do you base your findings?
[fol. 359] A. My judgment as determined by the sum
total of all things that enter into the forming of that judg
ment.

Q. Do you base the figure you recommend on the same
consideration you did for the employing of the teacher?

A. Generally so, yes.

207

Q. State whether or not you make an effort to recom
mend salaries to correspond with the teaching abilities of
the applicant.

A. I do the best I can to do it in so far as I am able
to determine what those teaching abilities are.

Q. Do you meet with the Teachers’ Committee on all
occasions when it considers applicants?

A. I am an Ex-officio member of that committee, and I
always sit in with them.

Q. Do you recall any occasion on which the Committee
has requested additional information?

A. Frequently they do.
Q. Do you recall any occasions on which the Committee

has disagreed with any of your recommendations?
A. I do not recall any specific ones.
Q. Do you have a general recollection of such an oc

casion?
A. Yes, I have had occasions when they would question

my recommendation.
Q. In your discussions with the Teachers’ Committee,

has the question of race or color ever been injected?
[fol. 360] A. It has not entered into the deliberations.

Q. Do you attend the School Board meetings?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you attend all of them?
A. I have missed one since February 1, 1941.
Q. Have you ever heard the question of i;gce or color

injected into the Board meeting? A. No, sir.
Q. Has the question of race or color ever been raised

in connection with fixing salaries? A. It has not.
Q. If you had two applicants before you for teaching

positions, teaching the same subjects in schools of the
same level, if in your judgment the two applicants were
equal in all of the things that you consider in connection
with employing teachers, what would he your disposition
as to recommending of salary if the only difference was
color?

A. Why, I would recommend the same salary if in my
judgment they were equal.

Q. Have you employed any teachers since you have
been here?

A. I have recommended quite a number.
Q. White as well as colored? A. Yes, sir.

208

Q. Do you have the application blanks here present of
those you have employed?
[fol. 361] A. They are in the courtroom.

Q. May I ask the Court for permission to have Mr.
Scobee to obtain these application blanks?

A. Any objection to that?
Mr. Marshall: No objection.

Mr. Nash: Are you able to recall offhand all of the de
tails in connection with every teacher that you have recom
mended for employment since you have been here?

A. I don’t think I would be able to do that, there are
too many.

Q. For the purpose of refreshing your recollection, I
hand you the applications of those teachers who have been
employed since you have been in our Public School System
(hands to witness). Have you prepared, at my suggestion,
a list of the teachers whom you have recommended for
employment since you have been here? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you have that list with you?
A. Yes, sir. (Hands to Mr. Nash who then hands it to

Mr. Marshall and then returned to witness.)
Q. Since you have been here, did you recommend for

employment a teacher by the name of Bernice Britt?
A. I believe I did.
Q. Is she now a teacher in our Public School System?

[fol. 362] A. No.
Q. And at the time you employed her, at the time you

recommended her for employment, what was your judg
ment as to Bernice Britt?

A. At that time I thought she would make an acceptable
candidate.

Q. Did you recommend her as such? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how has she fared since she has been a teacher

here?
A. The Home Economics Supervisor in whose depart

ment she was teaching and the High School Principal both
reported that she was ineffective and inefficient.

Q. I believe you say she is not now here?
A. She is not now with the system.
Q. Since you have been here, have you recommended

for appointment Clarence Gluise?

209

A No, he was employed prior to my coming.
Q. Has Van Homard been employed since you have

been here? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall what he teaches?
A. He is auto and aviation mechanics teacher.
Q. Do you recall at what salary he was employed?
A. $1350.00.
Q. In your judgment was he worth, as a teacher, that

amount of money?
A. He was worth more than that.

[fol. 363] Q. Has Mattie Kincaid been employed since you
have been here? A. I think she has.

Q. Have you [have] application there? Will you look
to see?

A. It would be in the other group, be'cause this is only
1942.

Q. Are you able to recall whether she has a degree?
A. Yes, sir, she had a degree in Business Administra

tion from the University of Arkansas and some commer
cial work.

Q. She is new to our system, is she? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know at what salary she was employed?
A. I don’t find it here. I remember her as an indi

vidual, though, quite clearly.
Q. Do you recall Eunice Brumfield? Has she been em

ployed since you were here? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know what degree she has?
A. I think a B. S. E., I am not sure, I don’t have those

applications, you are a year behind me on those.
Q. If I told you that Mattie Kincaid has a Bachelor of

Science Degree and is employed at $945.00, and Eunice
Brumfield has an A. B. Degree, teaching science, and is
employed at $630.00, would you state in your opinion the
difference in those teachers that justified that difference,
if there is anything to justify it?

A. There must have been in my original judgment cer-
[fol. 364] tain factors that caused it to be recommended in
that manner. I recall that Mattie Kincaid taught com
mercial and had had some experience in commercial of
fices down town which made her more valuable to us.

14—12,887

210

Q. There is a difference of $315.00 in the salary,
$630.00 and $945.00. A. Yes, sir.

Q. In your opinion, your best judgment, is that dif
ference justifiable ? A. I thought so at the time.

Q. May it please the Court, I want to make some
further comparisons along this line, but I don’t want to
take time to assemble these, and if I may, I will resume
that particular line of questioning in the morning.

The Court: Very well.

By Mr. Nash:
Q1. Mr. Scobee, it has been said that none of the Negro

colleges in Arkansas are accredited by the accrediting
association. Is that in accordance with your information?

A. It is.
Q. Do you have applicants coming before you who

have degrees from Arkansas colleges? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you employ any applicants or do you recommend

[fol. 365] for employment any applicants who have such
degrees? A. In some cases, yes.

Q. Are you able to compare an applicant with an
A. B. Degree from Philander-Smith with an applicant who
has an A. B. Degree from the University of Arkansas?

A. Generally, we consider the college or work done
in the University of Arkansas superior to that done in
Philander-Smith, and evidently the accrediting agencies
think the same thing.

Q. In recommending the salaries, would you consider
that factor? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would that be true with reference to degrees gen
erally ?

A. I would think so, yes, only the one from the ac
credited institution is more valuable than one from a
non-accredited institution.

Q. I believe you said on direct examination that you
have stayed within • the levels of $615.00 and $630.00 in
employing colored teachers. Is that true?

A. Generally so, yes.
Q. State whether or not you have stayed within those

levels because they are levels, or whether you found the
teaching abilities to fall within that range.

211

A. That seemed to be about the place where we could
obtain candidates that would be acceptable in my best
[fob 366] judgment, that is what they were worth.

Q. Does the Personnel Committee have any function in
recommending salaries for the ensuing year?

A. Do you mean with reference to teachers already
employed?

Q. Yes.
A. With reference to renewing contracts, the Personnel,

all personnel matters, that is, on the particular business,
comes from the Personnel Committee.

Q. And does that include the recommendation for re
newals of contract? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did the Personnel Committee this year recommend
renewal of contracts? A. Yes, sir.

Q. State whether or not you have made a report to
the School Board covering the teachers for the previous
year. A. I have one ready.

Q. Have you presented it? A. Not yet.
Q. Have you presented any such report to the Person

nel Committee? A. Not yet.
Q. Is the matter of renewing contracts automatically

under our state laws, so far as you know, or does it de
pend upon detailed analysis each year?
[fob 367] A. We have a new law now that requires action
upon the teacher’s contract prior to June the 1st, other
wise the contract is automatically renewed.

Q. Mr. Scobee, state whether or not you have prepared
a rate sheet since you have been here. A. I have.

Q. What was the purpose of your preparing this rat
ing sheet?

A. To survey the situation and find out what I could
about individual teachers, looking to their improvement.

Q. Was there an attempt to evaluate the teachers as
teachers? A. There was.

Q. Is this considered a good administrative practice?
A. I think all administrators made an effort to evaluate

their teachers.
Q. When did you prepare this rating sheet?
A. That one on the desk there was prepared in the sum

mer of 1941.

212

Q. Do you mean that in the summer of 1941 you pre
pared a rate sheet for the evaluation of teachers ?

A. That is right.
Q. What practice did you follow in gathering your

information for the rating of teachers?
A. The supervisors are given copies of this, I take

copies of them, myself, when I have an opportunity to
visit, and the composite of the judgments of all those
[fol. 368] who have had an opportunity to observe the
teachers is put together in one general report in my
office.

Q. Do you consult the principals of the various schools?
A. Quite frequently.
Q. Do you use, with the rating sheet, a rating com

posite form, is that the term you use?
A. No, I said that the general report is the result of

the composite of the individual ratings of individual
supervisors.

Q. When were these rating sheets put in use by you?
A. They were given to the supervisors and superin

tendents along in the fall of 1941, because they were set
up on an annual basis.

Q. Did you deliver them to the supervisors and spon
sors before this suit was filed?

A. Yes, the thing was due before that.
Q. State whether or not you had any conferences with

supervisors and sponsors with reference to rating or eval
uating teachers in the fall of 1941.

A. Yes, sir, we discussed that in one of our staff meet
ings.

Q. Has this practice been a continuous one since the
use of these sheets? A. You mean during the year?

Q. Yes. A. I think so.
[fol. 369] Q. Do you have in the courtroom a copy of
this rating sheet? A. I brought some to court.

Q. Will you get one, please? A. Yes, sir.
Defendant’s Exhibit No. 1-A, marked in evidence for

identification.
Mr. Nash: If there is no objection, I offer this rating

sheet as Defendant’s Exhibit No. 1.
The Court: Any objection?

213

Mr. Marshall: No objection, Your Honor.
Defendant’s Exhibit No. 1.

The above rating sheet admitted in evidence as De
fendant’s Exhibit No. 1.

(Shown following the Testimony in-this printed record.)
[fol. 370] By Mr. Nash:

Q. Mr. Scobee, is that a copy of the rating sheet which
you developed in the summer of 1941? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Does it contain as there appearing the same sub
ject matter as developed in the summer of 1941?

A. I think it has.
Q. Is that the same rating sheet that was given to

supervisors and sponsors for evaluating teachers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. State whether or not the rating sheet has been per

fected, has been completed for each teacher in the Public
School System. A. In practically all eases.

Q. Do you have in your hands these rating sheets?
A. They are in the office.
Q. State what the completed rating sheet—strike that—
Mr. Nash: May it please the Court, do I understand

that some hour has been fixed for adjourning?
The Court: Yes, four o ’clock.
Mr. Nash: I was just wondering how far I should go

into this in view of that. It is now four o ’clock, and I
[fol. 371] guess I had better postpone this until in the
morning.

Here the Court ordered that the Court adjourn until
9:30 A. M. on September the 30, 1942.

At 9:30 A. M. on September the 30th, 1942, the Court
re-convened pursuant to order for recess.

R. T. Scobee, recalled for continued
Cross-Examination.

Mr. Nash: Mr. Scobee, do you have the rating sheet
of Susie Morris here?

A. It was put in the deposition, and I don’t know.

214

Mr. Nash: May it please the Court, I believe the part
of the original deposition has been made as an original
exhibit. May I see that, please, Sir?

The Court: Yes, sir.
Mr. Nash: Mr. Scobee, I believe yesterday afternoon

that we were discussing these rating sheets—Mr. Harley,
do you have the exhibits?

Reporter: They are on the desk there.
[fol. 372] By Mr. Nash:

Q. I hand you Defendant’s Exhibit No. 1. Do you
have a completed rating sheet done for each of the teachers
in our Little Rock Public School System?

A. Practically all of them.
Q. Is that true for the white as well as the colored

teachers?
A. Yes, sir, no distinction.
Q. Does it include all of the schools in our school

system? A. Yes, sir.
Q. State the manner in which the information has been

compiled for the individual rating sheets.
A. It was compiled for this year by the individual

supervisors and principals, and then a composite developed
as a result of compilations and conferences with them and
myself. It was developed as a result of observations,
committee meetings and observations of the work of each
individual.

Q. During the course of the year, did you visit each
class-room in the city of Little Rock?

A. I did not.
Q. Are you able to tell us the approximate number of

class-rooms in our system?
A. Well, there are about four hundred and twenty-

five teachers, and the number of classrooms will be about
the same as the number of teachers.

Q. Did you participate in the compilation of informa-
[fol. 373] tion for the rating sheet for each individual?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. State whether or not the principal of each school

participated in the rating sheet.
A. In some cases.

215

Q. Is that true of Dunbar? A. Yes, sir.
Q. To what extent did you rely upon the supervisors,

the sponsors and the principals in obtaining information
relative to teachers?

A. Very largely. Our system is too large for me to
have intimate knowledge of every teacher.

Q. Has the rating sheet been compiled for the plaintiff
in this case, Miss Susie Morris?

A. I think so.
Q. Who assisted in the preparation of that rating sheet ?
A. Mr. Hamilton and Professor Lewis.
Q. Did you meet as a group or did you turn in separate

reports?
A. We met as a group in this case.
Q. And in that group, did you discuss individual teach

ers in Dunbar?
A. Yes, the ones that I had observed.
Q. Mr. Scobee, I hand you Defendant’s Exhibit No. 2—

is there any objection to this?
Mr. Marshall: Yes, we want to object to it.

[fol. 374] Mr. Nash: You do object to it?
Mr. Marshall: Yes, if Your Honor please, we object to

the admission in evidence of what purports to be a rating-
sheet of Susie Morris on several grounds. In the first
place, it is hearsay as to other people, as I understand it,
it is a composite sheet worked out according to Mr. Scobee’s
testimony by other people, one of those people, Mr. Hamil
ton, has not been introduced, so far as that statement on
this sheet might be concerned, it is hearsay. And,
second, it is a self-serving document prepared after the
trial of the case; and, second, it is irrelevant and immaterial
because, according to Mr. Scobee’s testimony, the question
of rating is not used for the fixing of salaries which is
the question in point here; and, second, because there has
been no foundation laid for the admission of it, and it is
hearsay by everybody, and Mr. Scobee at this time—

Mr. Nash: The testimony has been rather full at every
point on this rating sheet, it is a point that Mr. Scobee has
investigated in arriving or in connection with the employing
of new teachers. Every point on the rating sheet is a point

216

considered by him and the Teachers’ Committee in em-
[fol. 375] ploying and fixing salaries. It is true it was
prepared for the efficiency of teachers and rating sheet
before that, was prepared in the summer of 1941, and the
testimony is it has been in the hands of sponsors since
September, 1941, and conferences were held and meetings
were held continuously since the summer of 1941, so it was
not prepared since the filing of this suit. The purpose of
the introduction is the relation between salaries and
teaching abilities, and the testimony all the way through
for the defendant has been that the two must be related,
the one includes both. As for the hearsay evidence, Mr.
Hamilton is here, and we are going to produce him, and
I will substantiate the testimony of Mr. Scobee.

Mr. Marshall: May it please the Court, it is also quite
clear that this is the result of these conferences, and the
result of conferences with people who are not on the
witness stand, and it is clearly hearsay evidence. For
example, what he says is that Mr. Scobee is testifying by
this sheet as to what Mr. Hamilton said about Susie
Morris, this qualifications, and that is clearly hearsay,
and so what we have here, so far as the document is con
cerned, is hearsay, based on what Mr. Scobee thinks other
people said.

The Court: I am going to sustain the objection at this
[fol. 376] time. You can put Mr. Hamilton on, and you
can show his connection with that, but I think at this time
it would be improper unless the proper foundation was
laid.

Mr. Nash: Let me ask him this:

Q. Did you prepare this sheet, yourself?
A. No, "this sheet is prepared as a result of our con

ferences.
Q. Was the sheet prepared at the time of the con

ference? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are the ratings, as a rule, by agreement of everyone

in attendance?
A. Practically so.
Q. And was the sheet prepared at the time of the

conference and in the presence of those who are there?

217

A. Yes, I had the sheet before me and was checking it
as I was discussing each individual point with them.

Q. And this is the exact sheet that was prepared?
A. So far as I know and so far as I could tell or de

termine.
The Court: Is that sheet made a part of the files and

records of the School Board?
A. I did not get your question, Your Honor
Q. I say, is that sheet you have introduced here made

a part of the files and records? A. Yes, sir.
[fol. 377] Q. Of the schools?

A. Yes, sir, that is part of the files of the District.
Q. Is that just Susie Morris’ record or the record of

all teachers?
A. We have it for all nearly completed.
Q. And these files are left in your office and under your

control?
A. These are in the office of the School Board.
Mr. Loughborough: He had them before him in the ex

amining of the teachers.
Mr. Marshall: As I understand the testimony, while this

is in the School Board Office, it has not been before the
Board, has never been before the School Board.

Mr. Nash: He testified he has the documents prepared
and it is to be laid before the School Board.

Mr. Marshall: But it lias not been yet laid before it.
Mr. Loughborough: It is prepared for this.
The Court: I will permit it to be introduced for what it

is worth.
Mr. Marshall: We renew our objection.

[fol. 378] The Court: All right.
Mr. Nash: The above document admitted in evidence as

Defendant’s Exhibit No. 2.
(Shown following the Testimony in this printed record.)

[fol. 379] By Mr. Nash:
Q. Mr. Scobee, Defendant’s Exhibit No. 2 is handed

you, and I ask you that you identify it (hands to witness).

218

A. This is a copy of the rating or efficiency sheet for
Miss Susie Morris, a teacher in the Dunbar High School.

Q. Let me ask you a question: Did you have before
you this sheet at the time of the conference between you,
Mr. Hamilton and Mr. Lewis?

A. I think not. Not this identical sheet, because this is
typewritten.

Q. Is that an exact copy of the sheet that was before
you?

A. I am assuming that it is.
Q. Is that a part of the official records of the School

Board?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Will you explain the mechanics of evaluating teach

ing efficiency of a teacher, how you grade her, I mean, in
other words, how do you determine in what bracket she
falls?

A. On the basis of an analysis of what the individual
does according to our judgment in each of these separate
items, and that is measured in terms of her total—

The Court: There are no qualifications for the intro
duction of this. He says lie assumes that is the same, but
he hasn’t shown that it is, and he hasn’t shown he had
| fob 3801 custody or in charge of it since it has been made,
and it has been out of his possession, and you haven’t laid
the proper foundation.

Mr. Nash: Let me ask Mr. Scobee this question.
Q. When was the final conference held which served as

the basis for this rating sheet?'
A. I do not remember the exact date, but it was about

the last of April or first of May.
Q. Of what year? A. 1942.
Q. At this conference, what did you have for the pur

pose of taking notes? Did you make notes as to that dis
cussion, of these teachers?

A. Only a checking sheet like this.
Q. Did you take one for each teacher discussed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was done with those sheets?
A. I believe they are all in the files of the School Board

now.

219

Q. Is this a copy of the sheet that was checked for Susie
Morris?

A. I believe it to be.
Q. Who made the copy ?
A. I believe my secretary did.
Q. What is her name?

[fol. 381] A. Alethia Allen.
Q. Did she copy each of the sheets ?
A. Practically all of them. She does all of my school

work with reference to records.
Q. Where have these sheets been kept?
A. They are in the office of the Board.
Q. Filed there now?
A. I think so.
Q. Well, has this sheet been out of your possession and

custody except for the taking of a discovery deposition?
A. To the best of my knowledge, it has not.
Q. Is that the same sheet you have been handling

throughout these proceedings? A. I think it is.
Q. Have you any reason to think it is not?
A. No. i

The Court: Is his secretary here ?
A. No, sir.

Mr. Nash: No, sir, but I plan to call her.

The Court: You better call her if they object to it. You
may go ahead along that line; but if the opposing party
objects, I will have to sustain the objection.

[fol. 3821 Mr. Marshall: On this particular rating sheet,
we are willing to agree that is the same rating sheet that
was put in the deposition, hut anything that happened
prior to the time of putting in the deposition we cannot
agree, because we don’t know what happened.

Mr. Nash: I will be glad to produce Miss Allen and, if
necessary, the pencil rating sheet and typewritten copy, or
each written copy for each teacher in the Little Rock
School System and have her identify it from the witness
stand.

The Court: Well, all right.

220

By Mr. Nash:
Q. Mr. Seobee, into how many brackets do you place

the teaching ability?
A. We have set up here five degrees of efficiency.
Q. Explain how you determine into what bracket one

falls, and I mean by that what bracket takes the greater
degree of efficiency.

A. Number one for the best and number five for the
poorest.

Q. So the degrees of efficiency are in the same order
as, in numerical order. Is that true? A. Yes, sir.

Q. On the point of evidence of plans on which Miss
[fol. 383] Morris rated herself as one, what was the rating
of the committee? A. We gave her three.

Q. Did that meet, was that with the agreement of Mr.
Lewis ?

A. I wouldn’t say it was definitely, or that he was op
posed. We had a conference and discussed these things,
and as a result of the information given I checked the
place where our concensus of opinion seemed to fit.

Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, on this line of
testimony, wre object to any testimony by Mr. Seobee as to
what occurred to,— as to what “ we” agreed to. The best
Mr. Seobee is competent to testify at this trial is as to what
he thinks. Anything that he testifies as to what someone
else said is clearly hearsay, and the minute he said, “ we
decided” something, he is talking about hearsay testimony.

Mr. Nash: Let me ask the question again—
Q. As a result of the conference, did you give a rating

to Susie Morris on the question of plans?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And to what conclusion did you come?
A. She was given a three.

Mr. Nash: May it please the Court, I would like to have
one of these before you. Perhaps it might be easier to fol
low (hands to Court).

[fol. 384] Q. On the point of development of objectives
on which she rates herself as one, what conclusion did you
come to as a result of that conference?

221

A. We concluded she was four, I concluded she was
four. Part of that was substantiated by that visit on that
day.

Q. On the point of subject matter, scholarship, on
which she rated herself as one, what conclusion did you
come? A. That she was four.

Q. On the maintenance of class standards, on which she
rated herself as one, to what conclusion did you come?

A. Four.
Q. On the point of use of recognized methods on which

she rated herself as one, to what conclusion did you come?
A. Three.
Q. On the point of class administration, to what con

clusion did you come? A. Four.
Q. On the point of recognition of individual differences,

to what conclusion did you come? A. Four.
Q. On the point of pupil response, to what conclusion

did you come? A. Five.
Q. On the question of skill in question, to what conclu

sion did you come?
[fol. 385] A. Four.

Q. On the point of attention to room conditions?
A. Five.
Q. On the point of professional relations?
A. Four.
Q. On the point of estimate of parents? A. Four.
Q. On the point of class organization? A. Four.
Q. On the point of use of teaching materials?
A. Four.
Q. On the point of community activities? A. Four.
Q. And on personal example? A. Four.
Q. And what do you have the composite rating there?
A. About four.
Q. State whether or not you have prepared a report

for presentation to the Little Rock School Board, being the
composite report of all of the teachers in the Little Rock
Public School System at the close of the scholastic year
of 1941-42.

A. I have prepared such a report recently on data for
the year 1941-42.

Q. Is that report a part of the official school records?
[fol. 386] A. It is, but not yet presented.

Q. How is that report made up?

222

A. It is made up by a tabulation of all of the teachers
in the Little Rock School System, one column of which has
a composite rating for each teacher.

Q. What else does it show?
A. It shows training and experience in Little Rock, sal

ary.
Q. Was that report made up in your office?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it copied from individual rating sheets in your

office? A. Yes, sir.

Mr. Nash: May it please the Court, I anticipate objec
tion of opposing counsel and agree we must place Miss
Allen on the stand to show the composite rating sheet was
made up from the official records of the School Board and
that they have been continuously within the School Board
Office, and I offer the report to show only the relationship
of salaries to the teaching ability and not for the purpose
of showing that the salaries for the present year were ac
tually fixed in accordance with these teaching abilities,
only to show the relationship generally.

Mr. Marshall: If your Honor please, first, we make no
objection on the ground that this sheet might not contain
the material from the rating sheets. In other words, that
[fol. 387] they were honestly placed on here, and we make
no objection on that ground. Our objection to this rating
sheet is, in the first place, according to the testimony of
Mr. Scobee it has never been presented to the Board. It
is, therefore, not an official document of the School Board
in the Little Rock School District. The second ground, we
place it on, is that this is a self-serving declaration, wheth
er it be written or not is no objection. This is a self-serving
declaration. It is admitted it was not for the purpose of
fixing salaries, it is merely for the self-serving purpose
of setting out their own ideas to the effect that the rating
and the salaries have some connection, when a reading of
Mr. Scobee’s testimony makes it clear that he has not had
anything to do with the fixing of salaries prior to the time
he came here, and we object to it for the further reason that
despite the fact that these rating sheets were put out in
1941, according to their testimony, the rating conferences
were held after the case, according to Mr. Scobee’s testi
mony, April or May of this year, during which time the

223

ratings were worked out, and we submit it is immaterial
and irrelevant on the ground it is evidently a self-serving
declaration, and we point out this difference, Your Honor,
on the rating sheet of Susie Morris, which we think is im
material for the further reason, according to Mr. Scobee’s
[fol. 388] testimony he has never visited some of the teach
ers, and so he must have based it on what somebody else
told him, because he didn’t visit all of the teachers, he ad
mits that, and it is clearly stated here this document pre
pared on the basis of what somebody else told him, and it
is clearly self-serving. And third, it has no bearing on this
case, because they admit salaries were not fixed by the
Committee it was prepared for. The salaries were fixed
after the case was filed. And, further, under information
which he got from somewhere, I don’t know where, a com
pilation of their own mind, and I want to call Your Hon
or’s attention when he looks at the exhibit the salary and
everything are mimeographed and it was put on there
after the salary Avas put on there. It can be only intro
duced for one purpose, that is to bring in a document pre
pared outside the Court and clearly hearsay.

Mr. Nash: I would like to answer these several points.
On the question of hearsay, the testimony has been that
this is the individual rating sheet and are compiled by the
conference between Mr. Scobee and the supervisors and
sponsors, between him and the principal, and as a result
of this conference. Now, we have present every sponsor
that participated in these rating sheets. I shall call them
to the stand one by one and shall show from them that
[fol. 389] each has had this rating sheet from September,
1941, and there has been numerous conferences prior to
when this suit was filed, and have each of them testify
[fol. 390] under oath. On the question that this is a mimeo
graph and the ratings were filled in afterwards, I invite
the Court’s attention to the report, itself. The Court will
note everything else on the rating sheet is simply a matter
of keeping school records, for the Court will see the degree
and the amount of experience here and elsewhere and the
amount of salary which, of course, could be prepared in
a mimeographed form. The Court will see that the ratings,
themselves, are simply copied, and the composite figure
taken from the rating sheet for which we have a rating
sheet for almost every teacher in our public school system.

224

Opposing counsel says the conferences were held after
this suit was filed. The testimony is only the final confer
ences were held after the filing of the suit, and that would
be necessarily so since the suit was filed after the closing
of the school year, and the testimony will be that all re
ports have to be made after a school year. The statement
has been made that it is not an official document, and it
might be in a sense, it has not been formally presented
to the School Board and accepted as such and placed in
the office archives, but it is an official document prepai ed
under the supervision of Mr. Scobee and can be used for
the purpose of showing the relation of salaries to abilities,
and that is the real point involved in this suit. The con-
[fol. 391] tention is that the plaintiff and other colored
teachers have been discriminated against solely on the
ground of race and color in that they receive less salai\
than white teachers, and our answer is we have never con
sidered them as a class or group, but considered them in
dividually and separately and have endeavored to fix sal
aries individually and separately, and this has been intro
duced to show, as a matter of fact, that the salaries each
year in a large measure compare with ability.

Mr. Loughborough: If Your Honor please, I can think
of nothing that would be more pertinent than this very
thing. Mr. Scobee is the one who fixes the salaries here
and puts the figures down, and this form was being made,
this was compiled for the new contract. It has also a
column about what his estimate was of these teachers’
teaching ability aside from experience and degrees. Again,
he has formulated it and put it down on a sheet, and this
•will pe of great help and be an analysis, it is his analj sis
of that teacher. This is Mr. Scobee’s estimate and makes
up his estimate. If there is a point raised, and I under
stand it is not, that this is not a copy of the original, that
is something we can cover very readily; but so fai as
Mr. Scobee’s estimate of the teacher, he is certainly entitled
to say where he gathered his information about this
teacher and what it is. This is first evidence of the highest
[fol. 392] order what he estimated the ability of the teach
er.

Mr. Marshall: Maybe I misunderstood Mr. Scobee’s
testimony. I understand Mr. Scobee to say the rating

225

had nothing to do with the fixing of salaries. That was my
understanding of his testimony. Now, if it was shown
that the rating sheet was arrived at and then all of the
salaries fixed on the basis of that rating sheet, that would
he one thing; but as I understand where we stand in this
case at this time, the salaries were fixed and the rating
made later. That is my understanding of the testimony.
I remember distinctly that they had never used rating
for the purpose of fixing salaries, and I asked him and
he said “ no” . I think I am correct. That was not used
for the purpose of fixing salaries, that was used after the
salaries had been fixed; and if Your Honor please, that
makes it an entirely different point. I do not agree it can
be used for the purpose of fixing salaries, but when, ac
cording to Mr. Scobee, it was not prepared for the purpose
of fixing salaries, certainly it is not admissible.

Mr. Nash: At the time this rating sheet was actually
prepared in the summer of 1941 and at the time the teach
ers began their conferences to estimate the several abilities
of the teachers, the contracts for 1941-42 had already been
[fol. 393] fixed, so that these salaries were in no part what
soever fixed on this rating sheet, and to that extent Mr.
Marshall’s statement is exactly true; but I can show that
the report was in the hands of Mr. Scobee at the time the
salaries were fixed for 1942-43; and it is his function to
recommend these salaries to the Committee and the Com
mittee then reports.

Mr. Loughborough: If Your Honor please, so far as
the 1941 salary, it would be competent for him to show
what his opinion of the several teaching abilities of these
teachers were. It don’t make any difference about the
fixing of salaries. Mr. Scobee was the one to whom the
fixing of salaries goes. Wherever he got his evidence about
the teacher, whether right or wrong, is a different matter,
it is a fact that the statement was made. The information
he had about the teacher and his or her work to the school
system, it is very material for him to show here, if he had
the duty of recommending salaries. I think it would be
entirely proper from him to take the last year for that
compilation. We do that in the argument.

15—12,887

226

The Court. I don’t remember what Mr. Scobee said.
Mr. Marshall says he said he didn’t consider it at all in
fixing the salary.

Mr. Loughborough: No, sir, I understood him to say it
[fol. 394] is one of the most important differences.

The Court: Mr. Scobee, do you state that you do con
sider that?

A. Yes, sir, it is very important.
The Court: I understood him to say he did not fix these

salaries because they were fixed before he came here, and
it seems to me this rating sheet is material because these
salaries were fixed here, you say there was discrimination
and it certainly would be admissible in evidence in taking
into consideration whether or not salaries were unfair and
discriminatory.

Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, it is perfectly per
missible to develop that from the witness stand, but the
point we make is you can’t sit down outside the Court and
develop this in evidence on the basis of what you hear
somebody else say and use that evidence, the written evi
dence.

Mr. Loughborough: Well, you base the salary largely
on recommendations from other people.

The Court: It is understood these other people will
testify this is the conclusion, and there was a conclusion
which can be brought in to substantiate his testimony. 1
will admit it for that purpose, with the understanding that
[fol. 395] these other parties who aided him in coming to
the conclusion he has reached in making this schedule will
be introduced.

Mr. Loughborough: Let me leave a word. It is his
source of his information. He might get a letter of recom
mendation from New York, from a person he did not know,
or he may get the information from people who knew the
teacher. What better information could he get than from
the people who knew them in arriving at what they are
worth to the School District?

The Court: All right. Go ahead.

227

Mr. Nash: May we mark this an exhibit and then I will
turn it back.

Defendant’s Exhibit No. 3.
The above rating sheet admitted in evidence as De

fendant’s Exhibit No. 3.
(Shown following the Testimony in this printed record.)

[fol. 396] Mr. Nash: I introduce Defendant’s Exhibit No. 3.

Q. Mr. Scobee, is this the same copy as the one that,
is Marked Exhibit 3? A. It is.

Q. Is that the same (handing witness another paper) !
A. It is.
Q. Mr. Scobee, I will ask you to make a comparison of

the teachers who have been employed since you have
been Superintendent of the Little Rock Public School Sys
tem and analyze them and state on what basis the salaries
were fixed, and will you also need to have the applications
of these teachers!

A. I ought to have, because there are too many to keep
in mind.

Q’. Will you get them, please, as long as you know
where they are.

A. With the Court’s permission. (Leaves the witness
stand and returns.)

Q. Mr. Scobee, state whether or not you employed a
teacher, if you recommended for employment a teacher by
the name of Rhoda Wharry. A. I did.

Q. What does the record show is her qualifications!
A. That she has a Bachelor of Science and Education,

[fol. 397] her first year in Little Rock.
Q. She had no experience in Little Rock previous to

her employment!
A. No, two years’ experience elsewhere, but she did

not here.
Q. What salary did you pay her!
A. She was paid $900.00.
Q. In your best judgment, was she worth a salary of

$900.00! ' A. I think so.
Q. How did you arrive at that figure!
A. We analyzed all of these elements that entered into

her application, made an investigation of all colleges and

2 2 8

of all qualities that I could find that would throw light
upon her as a teacher, and as a result of that information
concluded that she was would be worth that to the District.

Q. Do you recall whether you wrote the school from
which she obtained her degree? A. I think so.

Q. Do you recall you checked on her previous experi
ence? A. I did.

Q. Did that affect your decision to employ her?
A. Very materially.
Q. Do you recall what sort of record she made else

where? A. A good record.
Q. In the employing of her, what else did you consider

besides the fact she had a B. S. E., or a B. S. in Education
[fol. 398] Degree, and two years’ experience elsewhere,
which she had had? A. I interviewed her personally.

Q. Did you judge her personality?
A. Yes, and I asked her numerous questions about her

fitness for the work, about her methods of teaching, what
she knew about textbooks and materials of teaching. I
presume our interview lasted half an hour or three-quar
ters, perhaps.

Q. Insofar as you could do so, to what extent did you
try to evaluate her on the same basis of the rating sheet?

A. Very similar to that, because we had the same ones
already in service.

Q. Do you still believe she was worth the sum of
$900.00 salary? A. I do.

Q. State whether or not you have also—strike that,
please—is she still in the Little Rock Public Schools?

A. No, she resigned last spring to go into the U. S. 0.,
I believe.

Q. Were her services satisfactory? A. Entirely so.
Q. Were you willing to recommend a renewal of her

contract?
A. Yes, I think I did. I think she resigned after the

contract was renewed.
Q. State whether or not you have employed a teacher

[fol. 399] by the name of M. J. McCallop. A. Yes, sir.
Q. What were his qualifications, Mr. Scobee?
A. He had a Bachelor of Science Degree from Kansas

State Teachers’ College.

229

Q. Is that a comparable degree to that held by Rhoda
Wharry? A. It was.

Q. Did he have previous teaching experience?
A. Only practice teaching.
Q. What was he employed to teach?
A. Industrial Art.
Q. At what salary was he employed?
A. I think $630.00.
Q. What else did you consider in recommending his em

ployment and salary other than his degree and matter of
teaching experience?

A. I viewed him at Pittsburgh, Kansas.
Q. You made a trip to Pittsburgh?
A. Yes, and talked to him half an hour, or such matter,

in which I asked him all the questions I ask any other
candidates, and I had before me the report of his teachers
and a statement from the one who had directed his prac
tice teaching; and on the basis of all this information, I
recommended him.

Q. Have you stated the name of the college from which
he comes? A. The Kansas City State Teachers’ College,
[fol. 400] Q. Is that an accredited College?

A. So far as my information goes, I think it is.
Q. Do you have some other teachers in the City from

there? A. We have several.
Q. In your judgment, what salary was the proper sal

ary at which to employ him?
A. My judgment was the $630.00 was what he was

worth.
Q. Are you still of that opinion? A. No.
Q. What has happened to change your opinion?
A. I had to request his resignation in the middle of

the year.
Q. Was that upon your own initiative?
A. No, it was the recommendation of the principal and

supervisor.
Q. Was the action done with your approval?
A. It was.
Q. Would you say that was a mistake in judgment?
A. It was.
Q. State whether or not you employed a teacher in

the Little Rock High School by the name of Bernice Britt.
A. I recall that name.

230

Mr. Nash: I believe yon will find it, may it please the
Court, she is a teacher at the Little Rock Senior High
[fol. 401] School on the first page.

Q. What were her qualifications, Mr. Scobee?
A. She had a Bachelor of Science Degree, had had ten

years’ experience in other schools, taught Home Eco
nomics.

Q. In investigating her qualifications, did you follow
the same procedure you did in the two previous cases?

A. Yes, I interviewed her and had letters and called
some of her former superintendents.

Q. Did you check on her previous experience in this
college? A. Yes.

Q. In your best judgment, what salary was she worth
to the Public School System?

A. I think I recommended her at $945.00, and the
record so shows.

Q. And what subject did she teach?
A. Home Economics.
Q. What is your opinion at this time as to her quali

fications and her value to the Little Rock Public School
System? A. We did not re-elect her.

Q. Were you willing to renew her contract? A. No.
Q. State whether or not you have employed a teacher

by the name of Eunice Brumfield at Dunbar High School?
A. I have.
Q. What were her qualifications, Mr. Scobee?

[fol. 402] A. Well, she had a B. A. Degree from Talla
dega College, she had done some graduate work at Fisk
University, and she had taught two terms in Tennessee.

Q. Did you make the same investigation relative to
her qualifications as outlined in the other cases?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what subject did she teach? A. Science.
Q. At what salary did you recommend her employment?
A. $630.00.
Q. In your estimation, was she worth that?
A. She was.
Q. $700.00? A. I don’t think so.
Q. Was she worth any more than $630.00 in your esti

mation? A. I did not think so.
Q. How long has she now been in our Public School

System? A. She has completed one year.

231

Q. Has your opinion been altered? A. No.
Q. Do you still think she was employed at a salary

commensurate with her abilities? A. I do.
Q. State whether or not you have recommended for

employment a teacher in the Little Rock High School by
[fol. 403] the name of Van Homard. A. I have.

Q. What was he employed to teach?
A. Auto and aviation mechanics.
Q. Is there any other comparable school department

in our system with which he may be compared?
A. On what basis?
Q. Subject matter. Do we have any other aviation

mechanics in our school system? A. No, no other.
Q. At what salary was he employed? A. $1350.00.
Q. In your judgment, is he worth that amount of

money? A. He is.
Q. How easy would it be to replace him?
A. We couldn’t hardly replace him at all now.
Q. State whether or not you have employed a teacher

in the Little Rock High School by the name of Mattie
Kincaid. A. I have.

Q. What were her qualifications, Mr. Scobee?
A. She had a Bachelor of Science Degree in Business

Administration in the University of Arkansas, and she
had some experience in private industry, and she taught
commercial.

Q. Did you make an investigation of her similar to the
investigation already outlined?
[fol.404] A. I did.

Q. What conclusion did you come to as to her value
to the Little Rock Public School System?

A. Well, I thought she was worth about $945.00.
Q. What previous experience had she had?
A. She had had experience in a business office here

in Little Rock.
Q. To what extent is that Comparable to teaching ex

perience of experienced teachers?
A. In this particular work, it is very important be

cause the students she is training are being trained in
general for commercial positions, and a commercial teach
er who has had training in commercial activities makes
better teachers generally.

232

Q. How long has she been in our Public School Sys
tem?

A. Just this year. She has already resigned.
Q. "Why did she resign? Do you know?
A. She went back to private employment. She could

make a whole lot more money.
Q. Did you offer to renew her contract?
A. We would have, yes, sir.
Q. Your judgment, was she worth—strike that—no

years’ experience—in your judgment was she still worth
the $945.00? A. She was.
[fol. 405] Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name
of Claude Hefley, teaching in the Little Rock Senior High
School, has been employed during the time you have been
here? A. He has.

Q. Did you recommend that teacher for employment?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you go into the teacher’s qualifications?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What were those qualifications?
A. Has a Bachelor of Science Degree, he had a number

of years’ experience at Ft. Smith High School in the same
type of position for which he was to be employed here,
he is a vocational teacher and was presented to me by the
supervisor as being one of the best in Arkansas.

Q. At what salary is he employed? A. $1800.00.
Q. Does all of that come from the Little Rock School

Funds? A. No.
D. Do you know about how much does?
A. I think about half, I do not have the records.
Q. And what is the source of the other fund?
A. Federal and State Vocational Fund.
Q. State whether or not—strike that, please—state

whether a teacher by the name of Mary Pence Parson, a
teacher in the Little Rock High School, has been employed
[fol. 406] since you have been here? A. She has.

Q. What are her qualifications?
A. She has a Bachelor of Science Degree.
Q. Is that from an accredited college?
A. My information is that it is.
Q. Will you continue her qualifications?

233

A. She has a very strong major in physical education,
forty or fifty hours’ college work, she had two years’ ex
perience in Ft. Smith Schools.

Q. Did you check that? A. Yes, I checked it.
Q. What did you find with respect to it?
A. She was very successful and left there, quit of her

own volition.
Q. Did you conduct the same type of investigation for

her as already outlined? A. I did.
Q. At what salary was she employed? A. $900.00.
Q. In your best judgment, was she worth that to the

Little Rock Public School System? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is she still here? A. Yes, sir.

[fol. 407] Q. And what is your opinion now?
A. She is still with us.
Q. Mr. Scobee, I believe Mattie Kincaid was recom

mended for $945.00, and Mary Pence Parsons for only
$900.00. A. That is right.

Q. They both teach in the High School? A. Yes.
Q. Well, how did you arrive at the difference?
A. The difference arrived at that Mary Pence Parson

had two classes a week in the Junior College, and for
that day she left her duties in the Senior High School.

Q. Did you take, in fixing her salary, consideration for
the division of her duties? A. As far as possible.

Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of
Robert Parker has been employed since you have been
here?

A. Mr. Parker’s contract was given before I came.
Q. It was written before you came? A. Yes, sir.
Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of

A. L. Scruggs, a teacher in the Little Rock Senior High
School, has been employed during the time you have been
here? A. He has.

Q. And what were his qualifications?
A. He is an industrial teacher, a graduate of our own

[fol. 408] school with a number of years’ experience as a
printer in one of the local print shops.

Q. Would that be comparable to teaching experience
for a teacher.

A. For his particular purpose, it is better than general
teaching experience, it is better, he gets out the school

234

paper and runs the school print shop and gets out the
forms and things for the school in addition to teaching.

Q. At what salary was he recommended for appoint
ment? A. $2280.00.

Q. Is all of that paid by the Little Rock School Board?
A. No, a portion of that comes from Federal and State

Funds.
Q. In your best judgment, is he worth to the Little

Rock School System the amount paid by the Little Rock
School Board?

A. Yes, sir, and we couldn’t replace him if he should
go to the Army, or anything.

Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of Julia
Mae Avery, teaching at the East Side Junior High School,
has been employed during the time you have been here?

A. She has.
Q. What were her qualifications?
A. She had a Bachelor’s Degree from Arkansas State

Teachers’ College.
Q. A Bachelor of Arts?

[fol. 409] A. A Bachelor of Science and Education.
Q. From what college ?
A. Arkansas State Teachers’ College.
Q. Is that an accredited college?
A. I am so advised.
Q. What other qualifications did she have ?
A. She had a year’s experience and came to us very

highly recommended, both as to scholarship and success in
teaching, and her subsequent disposition has proved that
because she is now library assistant at a salary over twice
as high as we could pay her.

Q. And she has left our school system?
A. Yes, she has gone.
Q. At what salary was she employed?
A. $900.00.
Q. In your best judgment, was she worth that much to

the Little Rock Public School System?
A. She was.
Q. Would you be glad to have her back at that amount?
A. I would be very happy to have her back.
Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of Wade

L. Davis, a teacher in the East Side Junior High School, has
been employed during the time you have been here.

235

A. He has.
Q. And what were his qualifications?

[fol. 410] A. He has an A. B. Degree, twelve years’ ex
perience in Paris, Arkansas, school, both as a teacher and
principal.

Q. From what school did he obtain his degree?
A. University of Arkansas.
Q. Is that an accredited school? A. Yes.
Q. Did you investigate his qualifications in the same

manner as previously outlined?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What subject was he employed to teach?
A. Mathematics.
Q. At what salary was he employed?
A. $1125.00.
Q. In your best judgment, was he worth that amount?
A. He was.
Q. And what is your opinion now?
A. We have re-employed him, and I think he is still

worth it.
Q. How do you account for the difference between

$1125.00 at which he was employed and the sum of $900.00
at which Julia Mae Avery was employed? Both are
teachers in the same school, are they not?

A. Yes, they are.
Q. How do you account for the difference?
A. Well, he had ten years more experience than she

had, he had acted as principal of the school, he was more
[fol. 411] familiar with the organization of schools than
she was, he could take a larger share of active lead in the
school.

Q. Would you consider his teaching ability as super
ior? A. We think so.

Q. Would that affect the salary recommended for him?
A. It would.
Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of

Lillian Lane, teaching in the East Side Junion High
School, has been employed during your administration.

A. Lillian Lane was only employed to fill out the un
expired term of another teacher, and she was only here
about three months.

Q. Is she still employed in the school system?

236

A. Not any more, she went into defense industry.
Q. What were the qualifications of Lillian Lane?
A. I don’t seem to have the application here.
Q. Here it is.
A. She had an A. B. Degree from Hendrix College.
Q. Is that an accredited school?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What were her other qualifications?
A. Well, she had had some experience in Albuquerque,

New Mexico. Her application indicates she taught there
in 1938, 1939, and 1940, but she was here such a short
time I hardly considered her a regular member of our staff,
[fol. 412] Q. And what subject did she teach?

A. She taught English and History.
Q. At what salary was she employed?
A. I think for the time she was here we paid her a

hundred dollars a month.
Q. Would that be, what would be her annual salary?
A. $900.00.
Q. Why did you recommend her salary as $900.00 for a

substitute teacher?
A. Well, it is our general policy to get the best substitute

teachers we can find, and it is very frequently the case that
it is more difficult to get a substitute teacher for two or
three months than it is to get a teacher for a longer period
of time.

Q. State whether a teacher by the name of Charles
North, teaching in the East Side Junior High, has been em
ployed during your time.

A. He has not. His contract was issued before my
arrival.

Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of Dixie
D. Speer, teaching at East Side Junior High School, was
employed during the time you have been here.

A. Yes, sir, her name is listed as Dixie D. Wyatt.
Q. What were her qualifications, Mr. Scobee?
A. She had a Bachelor of Science in Home Economics

from the University of Arkansas and had taught one
[fol. 413] semester in the University High School at
Fayetteville, Arkansas.

Q. Did you make a similar type of investigation of her
as already outlined? A. I did.

237

Q. At what salary was she recommended?
A. $900.00, I believe.
Q. Is she still a teacher in our Public School System?
A. No, she got married and is not any longer a candi

date for re-election.
Q. How long wTas she in our Public School System?
A. Only one year.
Q. Would you be willing to recommend her for re

employment at that figure?
A. I would be very glad to have her.
Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of

Mrs. B. B. Williams, teaching at the East Side Junior
High School, was employed during the time you have
been here?

A. She was.
Q. What were her qualifications, Mr. Scobee?
A. She has an A. B. Degree, she came in as a substi

tute to fill an unexpired term, and we re-elected her this
year.

Q. Did you check her qualifications in the same manner
as already outlined?

A. Very carefully, yes, sir.
Q. And what subject did she teach?

[fol. 414] A. Latin.
Q. Tell to what extent various teachers are available

from the point of subject matter taught.
A. Well, in this particular case, the availability of good

Latin teachers is very limited.
Q. And why is that so, Mr. Scobee?
A. I do not know, except that in many schools through

out the country Latin has ceased to be an important part
of the curriculum, the teachers no longer train for it in the
numbers they did some years ago.

Q. At what figure was she recommended for employ
ment? A. $900.00.

Q. Why did you not recommend her for $1000.00.
A. In my judgment, that is what she was worth.
Q. Is she still, do you still say she was in our Public

School System?
A. Yes, sir, she was re-employed this year.
Q. In your best judgment, is she still worth that

amount? A. I think so.

238

Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of Miss
Mary Alice Dunkin, a teacher at the East Side Junior
High, was employed during the time that you have been
here.

A. She was.
Q. What were her qualifications'?
A. She had completed a Bachelor’s Degree at the

[fol. 415] University, at the Oklahoma Agricultural and
Mechanical College.

Q. Is that an accredited school?
A. It is a division, I am told, of the University of

Oklahoma.
Q. Had she received her degree?
A. She received the degree the spring we employed

her. x
Q. She has a degree at this time, does she?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you check her qualifications in the same manner

as already outlined?
A. Yes, very carefully.
Q. And what subject was she employed to teach?
A. Instrumental music. She is the only woman band

director we have.
Q. At what salary was she recommended for employ

ment? A. $900.00.
Q. How did you arrive at that figure?
A. That seems to be the figure which, in our judgment,

she would be worth.
Q. Has the School Board ever indicated to you you must

employ white teachers in junior highs at $900.00?
A. They have not.
Q. Have they ever asked you why you pay a specific

salary to certain teachers?
A. Very frequently I am asked that.

[fol. 416] Q. Is she still in our Public School System?
A. She is.
Q. In your judgment, at this time, would you say she

is worth the sum of $900.00? A. I would.
Q. State whether a teacher by the name of Lois Grim-

mett, employed in the West Side Junior High School, was
employed during the time you were here.

A. She was not. Her contract was issued prior to my
time.

239

Q. That was prior to your time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. State whether or not John Hermann, a teacher in

the West Side Junior High, was employed during the time
you were here.

A. No, he was employed just before I came.
Q. State whether or not Mrs. Guy Irby, a teacher at

West Side Junior High School, was employed during the
time that you have been here.

A. We use Mrs. Guy Irby as a substitute because she is
a good mathematics teacher and the only one we have
available. It is marked here she was a substitute.

Q. What were her qualifications ?
A. I don’t have the application blank before me.
Q. Can you tell from the report what degree she had?
A. It is reported an A. B.
Q. Do you happen to know from what school she ob

tained the degree ? A. I do not.
[fob 417] Q. At what salary was she employed?

A. At the regular pay we pay all the substitutes, $5.00
a day.

Q. In your judgment, is she worth that amount of
money ?

A. Yes, and her abilities make her a very desirable
person.

Q. State Avhether or not a person by the name of Wood-
row King, a teacher at the West Side Junior High, was
employed during your tenure. A. He was.

Q. What are his qualifications?
A. He had about three and a half years’ training at, I

believe, the Arkansas Teachers’. He was an industrial
arts teacher, and we took him in an emergency before he
had finished school.

Q. At what salary did he enter his employment?
A. $900.00.
Q. In your judgment at that time, was he worth that

amount of money?
A. We thought so.
Q. Was he worth more?
A. He might have been in the emergency.
Q. Is he still a part of your Public School System?
A. No, he went to the defense industry.
Q. Would you be glad to re-employ him? A. I would.

240

[fol. 418] Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name
of Marguerite Pope, a teacher at the West Side Junior
High, has been employed during the time you have been
here. A. She was.

Q. What were her qualifications?
A. She has a Bachelor of Science in Business Admin

istration from the University of Arkansas, she had had
some commercial experience, and she taught commercial
subjects.

Q. At what salary was she employed? A. $900.00.
Q. Did you make the same investigation of her you

have outlined? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In your best judgment, was she worth the salary

of $900.00? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was she worth more?
A. I understand—under the circumstances she might

have been. She is gone now.
Q. Did you request her resignation? A. No.
Q. Did you offer to renew her contract?
A. I would have been glad to have done so.
Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of Wil

lard Meyer, a teacher at the West Side Junior High, was
employed during your tenure of office.
[fol. 419] A. He was.

Q. What were his qualifications?
A. He had a Bachelor of Music Degree from the South

western College, I believe, of Coffeyville, Kansas.
Q. Is that an accredited college? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you check on him in the same way you have

already outlined? A. Yes, sir.
Q. At what salary was he employed? A. $900.00.
Q. In your best judgment, was he worth that to our

school system? A. Yes, he Avas.
Q. Was he worth more? A. Yes, he was.
Q. Is he still in the Public School System?
A. He went to the Army.
Q. And would you be Avilling to renew his contract?
A. I gave him leave of absence.
Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of Mrs.

Eleanor Crook, teaching at Pulaski Heights Junior High,
was employed during your tenure of office.

A. Yes, sir, she filled out the unfinished term of an
other teacher.

241

[fol. 420] Q. Did you check on her?
A. Yes, sir, and she has a very valuable asset, she had

a double major.
Q. What do you mean by a double major?
A. She can teach either English or Mathematics.
Q. And what salary did you give her? A. $900.00.
Q. In your best judgment, is she worth that much

money?
A. Yes, she is worth more than that.
Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of Ethan

Gill, a teacher at Pulaski Heights Junior High, was em
ployed during your time here. A. He was.

Q. And what were his qualifications, Mr. Scobee?
A. He has a Master of Arts Degree.
Q. Do you recall from what college? A. I do not.
Q. Do you have his application there?
A. I don’t know whether I have or not. I had to call

him out of retirement in order to get a band man. He was
down in Old Mexico, but I don’t think I have his applica
tion.

Q. At what salary was he employed? A. $900.00.
Q. Was he worth that amount of money?

[fol. 421] A. We found him to be.
Q. How do you account for the fact that you recom

mended for employment a teacher with an M. A. Degree
at $900.00, and you have recommended so many B. A .’s
at the same figure?

A. Well, because there is a difference in degrees, and
that is only one of the items or factors which enter into
the teacher’s training.

Q. And you cannot and you do not automatically give
a higher pay on higher degrees? A. Absolutely not.

Q. Is he still a meiftber of the Public School System?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In your best judgment at this time, is he worth the

figure of $900.00? A. I think so.
Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of Mary

Nance Fair, a teacher at Kramer, has been employed dur
ing your tenure. A. Yes.

Q. What were her qualifications, Mr. Scobee?

16—12,887

242

A. She had a B. S. E., or a Bachelor of Science and
Education from the University of Arkansas, two years’ ex
perience as music supervisor for the Fayetteville School
System in Fayetteville, Arkansas.

Q. Did you check on her as you have already outlined?
[fol. 422] A. Yes, very carefully.

Q. What subject was she employed to teach here?
A. Music.
Q. At what figure was she recommended?
A. $810.00.
Q. Was she worth that amount of money?
A. Yes, she was.
Q. Was she worth more than that?
A. Yes, she might have been.
Q. How do you account for the fact that you recom

mended $810.00 for her when she has a degreee and a sal
ary of $900.00 for some other teachers of comparable de
grees in the junior high schools?

A. In our judgment, the service that she performs for
the District would not be as valuable as others.

Q. What would you consider—strike that, please—Is
she still a member or a part of the Public School System?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. In your best judgment at this time, is she still worth

that amount of money? A. She is.
Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of Cath

erine Thweatt, a teacher in the Kramer School, has been
employed during your tenure.

A. She was a substitute teacher and finished out an un-
[fol. 423] expired term. She was here for three or four
months, and that is all.

Q. During that time, at what salary was she employed?
A. $90.00 a month.
Q. And did you make the same type of investigation for

her as for the others? A. Oh, yes, I did.
Q. In your judgment was she worth any more than

$90.00 a month?
A. I didn’t believe so then, I don’t think so.
Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of Mrs.

Lewis Gardner, a teacher at Rightsell, was employed dur
ing your tenure.

A. She was.
Q. And what were her qualifications ?

243

A. She has a Bachelor Degree from the Arkansas State
Teachers’ College, and she had been teaching continuously
there, third and fourth grades, since 1928, in other schools,
the last eleven years of which was in the Robinson High
School, a part of the Pulaski County District.

Q. Did you make a thorough check of her qualifica
tions? A. Yes, I did.

Q. And at what salary was she recommended?
A. $810.00.
Q. In your best judgment, is she worth substantially

[fol. 424] more than that?
A. I think she will be worth more than that, yes.
Q. Why did you pay just a figure of $810.00?
A. Well, she had only been with us three months, and

we are still waiting to see how she develops.
The Court: The Court will be at recess for five minutes.

Here the Court recessed for five minutes, after which it
re-convened pursuant to order for recess.

R. T. Sqobee recalled for continued

Cross-Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of Betty
Obenshain, teaching at Lee School, was employed during
your tenure. A. She was.

Q. What of her qualifications, Mr. Scobee?
A. She has a Bachelor of Science Degree with a major

in primary education from Arkansas State Teachers’ Col
lege, and she had one years’ experience at Sheridan, Ar
kansas.

Q. And did you make the same investigation for her as
for the others? A. Yes.

Q. At what salary was she employed, Mr. Scobee?
[fol. 425] A. $810.00.

Q. In your best judgment at that time was she worth
that much money ? A. She was.

Q. What is your opinion now?
A. That my original judgment has been justified.
Q. Was she worth substantially more than that

amount? A. I wouldn’t think so.

244

Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of Mary
Delia Carrigan, teaching at Parham, was employed during
your tenure? A. She was.

Q. And what were her qualifications?
A. She has an A. B. from Hendrix College and had, I

believe, two summers of graduate work at Columbia Uni
versity, and she had already three years of third grade
at Hope, Arkansas.

Q. What grade was she employed to teach here?
A. The third grade, I believe, let me see, yes, the third

grade.
Q. At what salary was she recommended?
A. $855.00.
Q. In your best judgment, was she worth, at that time,

that sum of money A. She was, yes, sir.
Q. Mr. Scobee, you have testified that Betty Obenshain

[fol. 426] had a Bachelor of Science Degree, and Mary
Delia Carrigan a Bachelor of Arts Degree, and one you
paid $810.00 and the other $855.00. On what ground did
you base that distinction?

A. Well, the distinction was that Miss Carrigan had
had more training in special methods at the graduate
level. She had had additional experience, and all these
factors caused the development of judgment as to the dif
ference in these salaries.

Q. Do you have the same opinion at this time.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of Mar

tha Thomas Mitchell, at Parham, was employed during
your tenure. A. I recall she was.

Q. Do you have her qualifications?
A. She has a Bachelor of Science and Education from

the Arkansas State Teachers’ College, and she had taught
one year in Augusta, Arkansas; I beg pardon, she was a
half year in Augusta, Arkansas, two years in Springdale,
Arkansas, and was teaching fourth grade at Blytheville,
Arkansas, when she came to us, which was in the middle
of the year.

Q. And does it show what salary she was paid at
Blytheville ?

A. She was getting $85.00 a month.
Q. How much is that a year?

[fol. 427] A. That is $855.00.

245

Q. $855.00!
A. No, $765.00, that’s mental arithmetic (laughs).
Q. $765.00. Now at what salary was she employed

here? A. $810.00.
Q. In your best judgment, was she entitled to that

much money? A. I think so.
Q. Do you think she was entitled to substantially more

than that amount of money? A. No, I do not.
Q. Is she still in our system? A. Yes, sir.
Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of Eliza

beth McCuistion, teaching at Garland, was employed dur
ing your tenure? A. She was.

Q. What were her qualifications, Mr. Scobee?
A. She had an A. B. Degree from Hendrix College, with

honors, she had done her practice teaching for a semester
in the schools of Plummerville, Arkansas, and she had
had considerable work and interest in social service work
during the summers she was attending Hendrix.

Q. What was she employed to teach here?
A. She was employed to teach Literature apprecia-

[fol. 428] tion, I believe, was her assignment.
Q. Do you recall at what salary? A. $810.00.
Q. Mr. Scobee, how do you account for the fact that

a graduate of an accredited college and one who graduates
with honors should be paid the same amount apparently
as some other of those others who were just graduates?

A. Well, there are other things that enter into the se
lection of a teacher besides the mere record of a school.

Q. Can you graduate all A. B .’s and teach them the
same thing?

A. No, you can’t take teachers off an assembly line
like a machine.

Q. In your best judgment, was she worth the sum of
$810.00? A. We thought so.

Q. Is that still your opinion? A. Yes.
Q. Is she still a member of our Public School System?
A. She is not.
Q. Where is she?
A. She is working in a Resettlement Administration.
Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of—

strike that—would you be willing to employ her at that
figure now? A. I would.

246

Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of Mrs.
Raymond Smoot, teaching at Forest Park, was employed
[fol. 429] during your tenure?

A. She was a substitute and finished out the unexpired
term of Miss Olive Smith, who went into religious educa
tion. She was not classified for regular employment.

Q. And did you make a full and complete investigation
of her qualifications? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she hold a degree?
A. Yes, she has an A. B., I believe, from Fuller Uni

versity.
Q. Is that an accredited college? A. Yes, it is.
Q. At what figure was she employed?
A. $90.00 per month.
Q. In your best judgment, was she entitled to that

much money? A. I think so.
Q. What is your opinion now? A. She still is.
Q. Would she be entitled to more than that?
A. I don’t think so, and she is no longer with us, she

left the system.
Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of

Susan Belford, a teacher at Pfeifer School, was employed
during your tenure? A. She was.
[fol. 430] Q. And what are her qualifications?

A. She graduated from the Little Rock Junior College
and from there she went to the Texas State College for
Women.

Q. Is she graduated?
A. Yes, from which she received a Bachelor of Science

Degree. She had a major in primary education, and did
her practice teaching in the Demonstration School of the
Texas College. She had one year’s experience as a teach
er in the Mary Dodge Private School, a private school
located in Little Rock.

Q. Did you check her other qualifications as to char
acter, personality, teaching abilities? A. Yes, I did.

Q. What was she employed to teach?
A. Third grade, I believe, at the Pfeifer School.
Q. And what subject, do you recall? A. What?
Q. What subject, do you recall?
A. I think I said the third grade.
Q. Is that all third grade subjects? A. Oh, yes.
Q. Did she teach a special subject?

247

A. Yes, sir, she has the music in Pfeifer School in
addition to her other subjects.

Q. At what salary was she employed?
[fol.431] A. $810.00.

Q. Mr. Scobee, how do you account for the fact that
a teacher with a degree and teaching third grade and hav
ing additional duties in handling the music to be paid at
the same salary as some other teachers in third grade
with degrees?

A. We don’t make the distinction in the position. The
distinction was based on the individual being employed
in our judgment, as it is placed upon the individual.

Q. And in your best opinion, is she worth $810.00 she
has been paid, or would you say she is worth more than
that?

A. I think she has great potentialities of development,
but she is still quite new.

Q. State whether or not Stella Grogan, teaching at
Wilson, was employed during your tenure.

A. She was.
Q. And what were her qualifications?
A. She had three and a half years of training at Ar

kansas State Teachers’ College, with a developing major
in intermediate education. She had been teaching con
tinuously since 1925, she was, having ten years in the
Mabelvale grade school, teaching upper grade work, and
this grade school is a part of the Pulaski County system,
and from 1936 to 1941, when she was employed here, she
was teaching upper grade work in the Clinton School.

Q. At what figure was she employed?
[fol. 432] A. $810.00.

Q. In view of the experience she had had at that time,
how do you account for the fact vou only offered her
$810.00?

A. One reason was her training was incomplete, after
analysis of all the factors, I interviewed her a time or
two, getting all the information I could, and it was my
judgment that was all she was worth to us.

Q. Is it still your opinion? A. Yes, it is.
Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of Doris

Soard, teaching at Oakhurst School, was employed during
your tenure.

248

A. She was a substitute and finished out an unexpired
term.

Q. And did you check her qualifications?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Do you recall at what salary she was employed?
A. $810.00.
Q. In your best judgment, at that time was she worth

that amount? A. Yes, she was.
Q. Is she a part of the Public School System now?
A. No. She left the system and moved away.
Q. Would you be willing to employ her at this time?
A. We had employed her, and she left after the new

contract was tendered her.
[fol. 433] Q. In your best judgment, was she worth more
than $810.00? A. I wouldn’t think so.

Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of Mrs.
Boger Wills was employed during your tenure.

A. Yes, sir.
Q. And where is she teaching?
A. She is on assignment at the Pfeifer School now.
Q. Where did she teach last year?
A. She was a part-time teacher in the Opportunity

School and was transferred to Peabody before the term
was over, and her health broke down and a substitute
had to finish the year. This is really the first year she
has been on assignment.

Q. And did you make an investigation as to her quali
fications ?

A. Yes, sir, very carefully.
Q. Do you know at what salary she was employed?
A. Her salary this year is $810.00 a year.
Q. In your best judgment, is she worth substantially

more than that? A. No, she is not.
Q. Have I omitted any teachers in the white schools

you have employed, so far as you can recall?
A. So far as I Can recall, that list is complete.
Q. State whether or not you have employed a teacher

by the name of India Elston, teaching at Dunbar, during
your tenure.
[fol. 434] A Yes, sir.

Q. What are her qualifications, Mr. Scobee?
A. She had a Bachelor of Arts Degree from Philander-

Smith College and a Master of Science Degree from the
Atlanta University.

249

Q. Is Philander-Smith College an accredited school?
A. I am advised that it is not.
Q. Is the other? A. I am advised it is.
Q. All right, Sir, will you continue?
A. She has a major in science. She taught one year

in the Chicot County Training School, two years in the
Sevier County Training School, and one year in the Hill
side Grade School, and I don’t know where that is.

Q. And what subject was she employed to teach?
A. Science, biology.
Q. At what salary was she employed?
A. Did you ask what salary?
Q. Yes. A. $630.00.
Q. In your best judgment, was she worth that much

money to the Little Rock Public School System?
A. I think so.
Q. In your best judgment, was she worth substantially

more than that to our System?
[fol. 435] A. I do not think so, in my best judgment.

Q. Are you still of that opinion? A. Yes.
Q. It appears from your previous testimony that Ethan

Gill, having an M. A. Degree, was employed in the Pulaski
Heights Junior High for band work at a salary of $900.00,
whereas it also appears that India Elston has an M. S.
Degree, that is a comparable degree, I take it, teaching
science, was employed at $630.00 only. How do you ac
count for the difference in salary of these two teachers?

A. Well, I account for it in the difference in the indi
vidual. Ethan Gill had many, many years’ experience
as a band director in the schools of Kansas, and his ex
perience has been very successful because his recommenda
tions to us were of the highest order.

Q. State whether you came to a conclusion from your
investigations—strike that—State what conclusion you
came to from your investigation as to their respective
teaching abilities.

A. My conclusion was that potential teaching abilities
of Ethan Gill would be of more value than the potential
teaching abilities of India Elston.

Q. Of the two positions, a teacher of science or a band
master, which is easier to fill?

A. It is easier to fill the science position.
[fol. 436] Q. Why is that so?

250

A. Well, most band directors are men, and most of
them are in the armed services, and many science teachers
are women and not eligible for military service.

Q. Are there as many students training in band work,
so far as you know, than the other?

A. I wouldn’t know the exact comparable load, but I
would say as far as number of students are concerned they
would be comparable.

Q. Is India Elston still in the Public School System?
A. Yes.
Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of 0. N.

Green, teaching at Dunbar High School, was employed
during your tenure. A. I think so.

Q. Do you recall what subject he teaches?
A. I believe he is an industrial teacher, I don’t know—
Q. Do you know at what salary he was employed? Is it

on the report there, Mr. Scobee? Teaching at Dunbar?
A. Yes, he is.
Q. What salary was paid to him? A. $675.00.
Q. Did you make an investigation of his qualifications

at the time you employed him? A. Yes, sir.
[fol. 437] Q. Why did you recommend the figure of
$675.00 for his salary?

A. I thought he was worth it.
Q. In your best judgment, is he worth substantially

more than that amount? A. No, I don’t think so.
Q. Would you be willing to pay him $810.00?
A. I don’t believe so.
Q. Is he still in the Public School System?
A. I was trying to check. I have so very many turn

overs in industrial art, my recollection is incomplete on
that.

Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of
Tessie Lewis, teaching at Dunbar, has been employed dur
ing your tenure, and, if so, give her qualifications.

A. Yes, sir.
Q. State her qualifications.
A. She has a Bachelor’s Degree from Dillard ITni:

versity, New Orleans.
Q. Is that an accredited college?
A. I think it is. She taught one term in Homer, Louis

iana, and she taught one term at College Station, in Arkan
sas.

251

Q. What was she employed to teach here?
A. She teaches English.
Q. Did you make for her the same type of investigation

as for these others?
[fol. 438] A. Yes.

Q. At what salary did you recommend her for employ
ment? A. $630.00.

Q. In your best judgment at that time, was she worth
that to our Public School System? A. Yes.

Q. Was she, in your best judgment, was she worth
more than that? A. No, I don’t think so.

Q. What is your opinion at this time? Is your opinion
still the same? A. Yes, substantially the same.

Q. It appears from your previous testimony that Eliza
beth McCuistion has a Bachelor’s Degree from Hendrix
and is teaching the subject of English, Literature apprecia
tion, and I understand she was employed at a salary of
$810.00, and Tessie Lewis, with the same degree from an
accredited college, both of them, having an experience else
where, and the second teacher is employed at $630.00. How
do you explain that?

A. When all ol the lactors are put together, my judg
ment dictated that one was worth more than the other.

Q. To what extent did color enter into your considera
tion? A. It did not enter into it.

Q. Did it enter into your consideration in any of these
[fol. 439] other colored teachers you have already dis
cussed? A. No.

Q. If in your judgment Tessie Lewis had been worth
substantially more than the figure noted, what would have
been your attitude?

A. I would have recommended it to the Board.
Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of Pinky

Parr, teaching at Dunbar, was employed in your tenure
and if you find her application.

A. I do not find the application.
Q. And what did her qualifications appear to be?
A. She had an A. B. Degree, according to the record.
Q. Do you recall from what college? A. I do not.
Q. What subject was she teaching?
A. Mathematics. She was a substitute last year and

has been transferred to the elementary schools.
Q. At what salary was she employed as a substitute?

252

A. $630.00.
Q. In your best judgment, was she worth that teaching

that subject matter! A. No.
Q. Was she worth more than that?
A. No, because we felt like she was somewhat misplaced

and sent her to the elementary school.
[fol. 440] Q. Mr. Scobee, it appears from your previous
testimony that Mrs. Guy Irby, teaching at West Side Jun
ior High School, was also a substitute teacher of math
ematics, and she has an A. B. Degree, as also has Pinky
Parr, yet the one is employed at $630.00 and the other one
appears to have been employed at $900.00, a substantial
difference. How do you account for that?

A. Well, Mrs. Irby was a good teacher, satisfactory in
many respects, superior in many respects to Miss Parr as
subsequent developments proved.

Q. Do you still use Mrs. Guy Irby as a substitute teach
er? A. Yes.

Q. Do you still use Pinky Parr as a substitute teacher?
A. No, she has been transferred to the elementary

school.
Q. Is that a different level of teaching?
A. It is a different level of teaching, and in our opinion

she would be better prepared for that school than she
would be for the Dunbar High School.

Q. Do you happen to know at what salary she is now
employed?

A. No, but I think it is the same salary.
Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of Dan

iel P. Tyler, teaching at Dunbar, has been employed during
your tenure.

A. Yes, I recall that he has.
Q. And will you state his qualifications?

[fol. 441] A. Daniel Tyler has a Bachelor’s Degree
from Talladega, with a major in Biological Science.

Q. With any previous experience elsewhere?
A. Only practice teaching in the High School at Talla

dega.
Q. Did you make for him the same type of investiga

tion as for these others?
A. Yes, sir, rather careful investigation.
Q. Did that involve the writing of letters to check on

his references and his past experiences? A. Yes.

253

Q. Mr. Scobee, does this correspondence appear in any
of these applications that you have?

A. Portions of it appear, yes.
Q. State what practice you have in relation to retain

ing correspondence?
A. What practice we have of what?
Q. Of retaining the correspondence.
A. After the decision is made, we generally close the

files with the exception of the application blank, which is
the final document, and some of these have not been cleared
but some have.

Q. What do you mean by clearing the file?
A. Well, the confidential correspondence which we con

strue to be confidential is taken out and destroyed, and
only the original application is kept,
[fob 442] Q. Do you know how long that has been done
in the Little Rock School System ?

A. I don t know. Some have been and some have not.
Q. Has it been your practice to clear them?
A. Y es, so far as the new ones were concerned.
Q. Back to Daniel P. Tyler, what subject was he em

ployed to teach?
A. Biological science, as I recall.
Q. And at what salary was he employed?
A. $630.00.
Q. In your best judgment, at that time, was he worth

substantially more than that amount?
A. I do not think so.
Q. What is your opinion now?
A. He is still worth that.
Q. Is he a member of the Public School System at the

present time? A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Scobee, it appears from your previous testi

mony that a teacher by the name of Julia Mae Avery,
teaching in the East Side Junior High School, was em
ployed by you and recommended for employment by you.
She has a Bachelor of Science and Education, as com
pared to Mr. Tyler’s A. B. Degree, apparently the same
relative teaching experience, teaching science, and the
[fob 443] same subject as taught by Daniel P. Tyler, but
she was employed to teach in a junior high at a
figure of $900.00, whereas the other was employed to teach

254

in the high school at a figure of $630.00. How do you ac
count for the substantia] difference in salary!

A. I think their positions are somewhat comparable, be
cause Dunbar is a Senior High School, and it is possible
that Tyler’s education may have been at the same—

Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, may we have his
answer stricken “ that it is possible” , and he be limited
to testify to what he knows.

The Court: The Court sustains the motion.
Mr. Nash: That is quite all right.
Q. Aside from their teaching level, since you don’t

know that, how else would you account for the difference
in the salary!

A. I considered Miss Avery a teacher superior to Mr.
Tyler.

Q. And how did you come to that conclusion?
A. I formed my judgment from all the information at

hand.
Q. After a year’s experience with each of them, do you

now think that you erred in judgment and that Daniel P.
Tyler is worth $900.00?

A. I do not think he is worth that much.
[fol. 444] Q. Would you be willing to give him a renewal
contract for that amount of money? A. At $900.00?

Q. Yes.
A. No. I did not so recommend that to the Board.
Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of

Mildred Works, teaching at Dunbar, has been employed in
your tenure. A. Yes.

Q. What are her qualifications?
A. She has a Bachelor’s Degree from the Agricultural

and Mechanical College, I believe that is the name of it,
at Pine Bluff.

Q. Is that an accredited college?
A. I am advised that it is not. She had one-half year

experience in the Barnes’ School and one year’s experience
in the Liza Miller School.

Q. What was she employed to teach?
A. She teaches home economics.
Q. And at what salary was she employed to teach?
A. $630.00.

255

Q. In your best judgment at that time, was she entitled
to substantially more than that?

A. No, because for one reason we had difficulty getting
her approved.

Q. By whom ?
[fob 445] A. By the Commissioner for the North Cen
tral Association to whom the credits of non-accredited col
leges are referred before we employ them, and after a
careful analysis of her transcript, they decided she could
teach.

Q. Who is that man? Is there such a local man?
A. Yes, sir, it is Mr. Morgan Owen, of the State De

partment of Education.
Q. Is it required you refer to him all teachers from

non-accredited schools in Arkansas?
A. He is the local representative of the North Central

Association Accrediting Agency and the correspondence
relative to approval of an individual such as this always
clears through him.

Q. Does he always approve such applicants?
A. I don’t know. We have submitted but very few to

him. Those we have submitted he has approved.
Q. In your best judgment, you recommended her for

employment. Was she entitled to substantially more than
$610.00? A. No.

Q. What about at this time?
A. That is about right.
Q. It appears from your previous testimony that during

your tenure Berniece Britt was employed to teach the
subject of home economics in the Little Rock Senior
High School, and it appears she has a B. S. Degree, as
has Mildred 'Works, the colored teacher, that both were
[fol. 446] new to the system for the first time and teaching
the same subject, and it also appears that one was paid
$945.00 and the other only $630.00. How do you account
for that difference?

A. Well, at the time the two were employed, the infor
mation on Berniece Britt was to the effect that she was a
better teacher than we found her to be.

Q. Did you believe her to be worth the sum of $945.00?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At that time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Continue with your explanation of the difference.

256

A. And after the year was out, we concluded we had
paid her entirely too much, and her contract was not re
newed.

Q. Would you be willing to renew it for $900.00?
A. No, sir.
Q. Would you be willing to renew it for $630.00?
A. I wouldn’t renew it for $500.00.
Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of Homer

Winstead, teaching at Dunbar, was employed during your
tenure. A. He was.

Q. And what were his qualifications?
A. Well, he was here such a short time, I don’t know

whether I have it or not.
Q. Is he now in our Public School System?

[fol. 447] A. No, he’s in the Army.
Q. Do you recall whether or not he had a degree?
A. I think, perhaps, the record will show. No, the

record shows he has two years’ college work.
Q. And what was he employed to teach?
A. He was a woodworking teacher in the industrial arts.
Q. At what figure was he employed at that time?
A. $630.00.
Q. In your opinion, was he worth that much to the

Public School System?
A. I think so.
Q. Was he worth substantially more?
A. I think not.
Q. State whether or not a teacher by the name of

Pauline Johnson, teaching at Bush, was employed during
your tenure.

A. Yes, Pauline Johnson.
Q. What are her qualifications?
A. She has a Bachelor’s Degree from Langston, Okla

homa.
Q. Do you know whether that is an accredited school?
A. I do not. The directory was produced in Court this

morning, and I would like to refer to it to make a definite
answer. I want the bulletin of the United States Office, that
is a North Central Bulletin, I want the U. S. Office’s.

Q. You will have to point it out to us.
A. The secretary brought it down here.

257

[fol. 448] Mr. Nash: Is it agreeable to you for him to
refer to the bulletin?

Mr. Marshall: Surely.

By Mr. Nash:
Q. Will you refer to the bulletin to determine whether

or not it is an accredited school (hands to the witness). Do
you find it listed.

A. I find it. It ’s official name is listed in the Educational
Directory of the Federal, of the Official U. S. Office of
Education as the colored Agricultural Normal University
of Langston.

Q. It is an accredited school?
A. It is not an accredited school.
Q. In examination of applications for applicants, what

is your practice with reference to checking to see if colleges
from which they come are accredited?

A. We refer to this bulletin. This is part of the
regular working tools of my office.

Q. Will you continue with her qualifications, please?
A. She had done some intermittent substitute teaching

in our schools.
Q. Does it show over what period of time ?
A. She just lists a few days in 1941, apparently she

had never had definite assignment as a teacher prior to
coming to us.
[fol. 449] Q. Did you make for her the investigation
similar to those previously outlined? A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was she employed to teach in our schools?
A. She was employed to teach the (stops)
Q. She is in the Bush School.
A. The first grade.
Q. And at what salary? A. $615.00.
Q. In your best judgment, at that time, was she entitled

to substantially that amount.
A. No, not more than that.
Q. Is she still a member of our Public School System?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is your opinion now?

17—12,887

258

A. Well, she is improving, and we thought it justifiable
to renew her contract at the same basis, but I do not think
she is worth any more than that.

Q. It appears from your previous testimony that during
your tenure there has been a teacher by the name of Betty
Obenshain, who has a Bachelor of Science Degree from an
accredited college, compared with a Bachelor of Science
Degree Pauline Johnson apparently received from a non-
accredited college, both new to the system at the same time,
one teaching 1-B and the other 2-B and 2-A, one being em
ployed at the sum of $810.00, and the other $615.00. Let
[fol. 450] me ask you this: this teaching 1-B and 1-A and
1-B, is that a comparable level? A. They are.

Q. And how do you account for the difference ?
A. In my best judgment, the training of the two

candidates has been entirely different, one from the school
that enjoys a wide reputation for the training of primary
teachers.

Q. Which one are you referring to?
A. Denton, Texas.
Q. Which teacher are you referring to?
A. Betty Obenshain. May I correct my testimony?

Look at that. She came from Arkansas Teachers’ College.
Q. Is it your recollection she is from an accredited

college ?
A. I know she is, but I want to be very fair about this.

I will correct that. She is from the Arkansas State Teach
ers’ College, which also enjoys a state-wide reputation for
training primary teachers; and Langston, I would say,
was not in that position, to give the same type of training
to Miss Johnson.

Q. Is that the only difference between the two?
A. No, in analyzing the individuals, Miss Obenshain

had one year experience and Miss Johnson had no former
experience, and as a result of all the factors, my judgment
determined the salary I recommended in both cases.
[fol. 451] Q. Would you be willing to employ Pauline
Johnson at a figure of $810.00? A. I would not.

Q. Do you recall any colored teachers employed during
your tenure whom I have overlooked?

A. I remember one I recently employed.
Q. For the school year of 1941-42?

259

A. No, no, I do not recall any you have overlooked for
that year.

Q. Mr. Scobee, Mr. Lewis, Principal of Dunbar High
School, has testified that he has been discriminated against
on the ground of race and color and that the discrimination
takes the form of receiving less salary on account of race
and color as compared with Mr. J. A. Larson, who is the
principal of the Little Rock Senior High School. Do you
know both of these ?

A. I know them both quite well.
Q. Do you recall what degrees they hold, respectively?
A. They both have the Master of Arts Degrees, and I

think from the same institution.
Q. Do you recall how long Mr. Larson has been in our

Public School System?
A. Not the exact year, but I do know he has been here

a long time.
Q. What does the report show as to his experience here ?

[fol. 452] A. Twenty-nine years.
Q. What does it show with reference to the experience

of Mr..Lewis? A. Thirteen years.
Q. How large an institution is the Dunbar High School

in point of enrollment? Do you know?
A. I think I looked that up this morning—at what time?
Q. During the school year of 1941-42.
A. You asked about Dunbar, did you not?
Q. Yes.
A. The total enrollment for Dunbar for the year end

ing in 1942 was 1,438.
Q. Do you know the total enrollment in the Little Rock

Senior High School? A. 2,812.
Q. Are the positions comparable as, in the nature of

duties performed as principal?
A. As far as the general responsibilities are, they are;

as far as the amount of work and the size of the schools,
they are not comparable.

Q. To what extent, if any, are the duties increased by
the size of the school?

A. Well, they are increased in similar proportion.
Q. Which of the two, would you say, had the heavier re

sponsibilities?

260

[fol. 453] A. Well, the Senior High School would be be
cause of its enormous size.

Q. What has been the record of the two since you
have been here?

A. Their records have been satisfactory.
Q. State whether or not the Little Rock School Board

asked you to consider or observe Mr. Lewis.
A. It did.
Q. In what way—
Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, we have heard

“ what the Little Rock School Board asked him to do.”
I don’t think he is entitled to testify to that.

Mr. Nash: I mean to say the nature of his instruction.
Mr. Marshall: He Can say what he did, but his in

structions will be hearsay.
Mr. Loughborough: The fact a statement was made

him, not its details.
The Court: He can state what the School Board in

structed him to do.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. What instruction did you receive as to the con
sideration or observing of Mr. Lewis?

A. The President of the Board instructed me to—
[fol. 454] Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please—

Mr. Nash: Just state what instruction you received.
Mr. Marshall: Objection. I f it is answered, I wish to

make objection as to anything the School Board told him.
The Court: That objection is sustained.

By Mr. Nash:
Q. W7hat did you do with reference to keeping Mr.

Lewis under observation, if anything?
A. I examined the school, and I visited it fairly often.
Q. Did you make a particular point to do that?
A. Yes, I would say I visited Dunbar the first year I

was here perhaps oftener than I did some other of the
other schools.

Q. Did you make a particular point to keep Mr. Larson
under observation? A. No, not particularly.

261

Q. It appears that Mr. Larson receives a salary of
$3,712.00 and Mr. Lewis a salary of $2,742.00. In your
test judgment, how do you account for the difference in
salaries?

A. Why, I account for it generally in two ways; one
because of the long period of service of Mr. Larson, which
[fol. 455] is over twice as much as Mr. Lewis; the other
is the size of his school, he has a greater responsibility.

Q. In your best judgment, is Mr. Larson entitled to
a salary of $3,712.00? A. I think so.

Q. Is he entitled to substantially more than that?
A. I should think some more.
Q. In your best judgment, is Mr. Lewis entitled to the

salary of $2,742.00? A. I think he is.
Q. In your best judgment, is he entitled to substantially

more? A. He might be.
Q. State in your best judgment whether or not the

salaries are out of proportion to their respective responsi
bilities. A. They are not.

Q. Mr. Seobee, a comparison has been invited between
Clayton Elliott, a white teacher, I believe, and James D.
Scott, a teacher in Dunbar, I believe. What do you con
sider—strike that—it appears that Clayton Elliott has a
degree of Bachelor of Science, has taught six years in our
system, teaches mathematics, whereas James D. Scott
has a degree of Master of Art, and has taught eight years
in our system, and teaches the subject of mathematics. It
appears that in the one instance for the white teacher the
[fol. 456] salary is the sum of $1,234.00, and in the other
the sum of $753.00, In your best judgment—strike that,
please, sir—have you made a study of the teachers in our
system with relative salaries?

A. No, not very carefully.
Q. How do you account for the difference, if you can

account for it, in the salary of these two, that is paid to
these two teachers?

A. I know one factor that has entered into the larger
salary that Elliott might have over Scott is the fact that
Elliott was the full-time coach of the East Side, and he
carried that load in addition to his regular academic
classes, and I do not think Scott has that assignment.

Q. When you say full-time coach, does that mean for
some particular sport, or generally?

262

A. All sports, basketball, football and track.
Q. Over what period would that run?
A. Generally throughout the year. As one season

closes the other opens up.
Q. A comparison has been invited between P. M. Gard

ner and James D. Scott. It appears that I . M. Gardner
has a Bachelor of Science and has taught tour yeais and
teaches mathematics, whereas Mr. Scott has an M. A. and
has taught, I think it was six years, or eight years, and
teaches Math. Are you able to account for the difference
there ?
[fol. 457] A. I am able to account partially by the fact that
Gardner is assistant coach and spend one hour a day dur
ing the day extra on work, and that last year when that
salary was made up he taught one extra class over the
regular six, that is the customary load.

Q. In your best judgment would that account or tend
to account for the difference between $1260.00 and $753.00 '

A. It would partially account for it.
Q. So far as you know, does the question of color enter

into that difference?
A. Not as far as I know.
Q. In your own estimation, is F. M. Gardner worth to

the Little Bock Public School System the sum of $1260.00?
A. I think so.
Q. Is he worth substantially more than that?
A. I would say not.
Q. In your best judgment, is James D. Scott worth the

sum of $753.00 to the Public School System of the City of
Little Rock? A. I think so.

Q>. Is he worth substantially more than that?
A. Not very much more.
Q. Comparison has also been invited between N. F.

Tull and James D. Scott. It appears that N. F. Tull has
less than two years college credit, whereas Mr. Scott has
an M. A. Mr. Tull appears to have taught seventeen years
[fol. 458] in our system as to Mr. Scott’s eight years, both
teaching mathematics. Mr. Tull receives a salary of
$1603.00, and I believe Mr. Scott the sum of $753.00. Can
you account for that difference?

A. Well, some of the difference is due to the fact that
Mr. Tull has, as I recall, has a lot of administrative duties

263

in that school. He has, I believe, charge of the work rooms
and acts as advisor to the boys, does some of the social
service work in the school, and that might be part of the
reason.

Q. Are these extra duties a proper element to con
sider in fixing salaries?

A. It is customary to pay for extra duties.
Q. In your best judgment, is Mr. Tull worth the sum

of $1603.00? A. Not any more than that.
Q. Comparison has been invited between Rhoda Whar-

ry and the plaintiff in this case, Susie Morris. It appears
that Rhoda Wharry holds a degree of Bachelor of Science
and Education, whereas the plaintiff holds a degree of
Bachelor of Arts. Rhoda Wharry was employed new
to our system during your tenure, whereas it appears that
Susie Morris had had six years’ experience here and some
experience elsewhere. They teach the same subject, Eng
lish, yet the one was paid the sum of $900.00 as an en-
[fol. 459] trance salary, whereas the other, after six years’
experience, is paid the sum of $706.00. Can you account
for that difference?

A. The difference that I would say existed was the
difference that when all the factors of the situation were
taken into account, I concluded that Rhoda Wharry’s
recommendation was worth $900.00 to the District.

Q. She is one of the teachers who has resigned?
A. Yes, she is now in the U. S. O. somewhere.
Q. In your best judgment, is Susie Moms worth to

our Public School System the sum of $900.00?
A. I do not think so.
Q. Would you recommend her to our School Board at

$900.00?
A. Not with the present information I have at hand.
Q. Comparison has also been invited beween Lillian

Lane and Susie Morris. It appears that Lillian Lane
holds a Bachelor’s Degree as does also Susie Morris, and
Lillian Lane was new to our system, whereas Susie Morris
bad six years’ tenure, both teaching English; yet one re
ceived the sum of $900.00 for her first annual salary, and
the other $706.00 after six years’ tenure. How can you
account for that difference?

A. I thought that Lillian Lane was worth that much
under the circumstances. She was in the system a short

264

time, such a short time that it was worth a great deal to
[fol. 460] to have a teacher for two or three years.

Q. For how long?
A. Two or three months, I beg your pardon. She had

good recommendations, and the principal reported she
did a fair job while she was here.

Q. Comparison has also been invited between Helena
Key and Susie Morris, the plaintiff, and it appears that
Helena Key had an A. B. Degree, as compared to the
same degree held by the plaintiff, but that Helena Key
was only three years in our system, whereas the plaintiff
was here six years, and yet at the end of three years after
teaching the same subject, Helena Key receives a salary of
$1102.00, whereas the plaintiff receives a salary of $706.00,
after six years. How do you account for that difference?

A. It is highly possible that Helena Key—
Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, may I object to

this “ highly possible” .
The Court: That objection is sustained.
A. In my opinion, Helena Key is worth more than Susie

Morris.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Do you know whether or not Helena Key has taken
any advance work?

A. Yes, I checked her record this morning, and I be-
[fol. 461] lieve she has now completed the requirements
for Master of Arts Degree.

Q1. Do you know whether or not she had tenure else
where?

A. The records show she had thirteen years’ prior
service before she came here.

Q. In your best judgment, is Helena Key worth the
sum of $1102.00? A. She is.

Q. Is she worth substantially more?
A. I think she might be.
Q. Comparison has been invited between M. C. Moser

and Bernice Bass. It appears that M. C. Moser has a
Bachelor of Arts Degree, whereas Bernice Bass has a
Bachelor of Science Degree. And Mr. Moser has been in
our system thirteen years, whereas Bernice Bass has been

265

here for a period of five years. Mr. Moser teaches the
subject of algebra, and Bernice Bass home economics. It
further appears that the one receives a salary of $1536.00,
whereas the other a salary of $639.00. Can you account
for that difference!

A. Mr. Moser has been in the system over twice as
long as Miss Bass. He has, to my knowledge, some extra
duties with reference to acting athletic director at the
High School.

Q. Do you know whether or not Bernice Bass has some
[fol. 462] extra duties! A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. Which do you consider the better teacher?
A. I consider Mr. Moser the better teacher of the two.
Q. In your judgment, is Mr. Moser entitled to $1536.00!
A. I think so.
Q. In your best judgment, is he worth substantially

more than that! A. No.
Q. In your best judgment, is Bernice Bass entitled to

her salary of $639.00? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In your best judgment, is she entitled to more than

that?
A. Yes, sir, I gave her a raise this year.
Q. Do you know what you raised her to?
A. $720.00, I believe.
Q. In your best judgment, is Berni€eBass worth more

than $720.00?
A. Not at the present time. If she deserves it, she

will be raised accordingly, as long as it is within my power
of recommendation.

Q. Could you at this time recommend her for a salary
of $1536.00? A. I would not.

Q. Comparison has also been invited between Mrs.
[fol. 463] Guy Irby and Bernice Bass. It appears that
Mrs. Irby has a Bachelor of Arts Degree as compared to
Miss Bass’ Bachelor of Science Degree, that one is new
to our system, whereas the other has had five years’ ten
ure, the one is a substitute teacher in the subject of English
and the other a regular teacher in home economics, but the
one receives a salary of $900.00 after, when she is new to
the system, and the other $638.00, now raised to $720.00,
I believe, after five years ’ tenure. Can you account for the
difference there?

266

A. It is not quite correct to say that Mrs. Irby is new
to our system. She has been already substituting for the
last number of years, because my previous study shows she
is a very satisfactory mathematics teacher, and it is worth
a great deal to have a teacher of that caliber subject to
call.

Q. In your best opinion, is the difference justified?
A. I think so, yes.
Q. Comparison has also been invited between Mrs. Guy

Irby and Mr. James D. Scott. I have just mentioned that
Mrs. Irby has a Bachelor of Arts Degree, whereas Mr.
Scott has an M. A., has been here eight years and teaching
mathematics, and Mrs. Irby is a substitute teacher, receiv
ing $900.00, whereas Mr. Scott receives the sum of $753.00.
Can you account for the difference there?
[fol. 464] A. Yes, as I previously stated, Mrs. Irby is a
very superior teacher.

Q. Mr. Scott has an M. A. Degree, whereas she has
only a B. A. Degree.

A. Degrees do not determine what teachers are.
Q. Do you consider Mrs. Irby as excellent a teacher as

as Mr. Scott?
A. I consider her superior because of her adaptability.
Q. Comparison has been invited between Jewell

Stone—
The Court: Just a minute, Mr. Nash, it is twelve-thirty.

We will adjourn Court until two o ’clock.

Here the Court adjourned until 2:00 P. M. on September
30th, 1942, at which time the Court re-convened pursuant
to order for recess and proceeded as follows:

R. T. Scobee recalled for further
Cross-Examination.

Mr. Nash: Mr. Harley, will you read that question I
started before noon?

Reporter: (Reading) “ Comparison has been invited be
tween Jewell Stone.”
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Jewell Stone and Bernice Bass. Mr. Scobee, it
[fol. 465] appears that Jewell Stone is a teacher in the
East Side Junior High School, who has had two years of

267

college work, as compared to the Bachelor of Science De
gree of Bernice Bass; that Jewell Stone has been a mem
ber of the Little Bock Public School System for a period
of eighteen years as compared to five years of Bernice
Bass, the one, Jewell Stone, is listed as teaching study
hall, as being a study hall teacher, and the other, Bernice
Bass, home economics. It also appears that the one, Jewell
Stone, is paid a salary of $907.00, whereas the other, Ber
nice Bass, is paid the sum of $638.00, recently increased to
$720.00, I believe. In your best judgment, how can you ac
count or how can that difference be accounted for, if it
can be?

A. I do not believe these are comparable positions. Miss
Bass is an academic teacher, Miss Stone a study hall keeper
and librarian, teaches no classes, has different duties en
tirely to those of Miss Bass.

Q. Does the one require any different type of training
than the other?

A. Miss Bass requires a different type of training from
Miss Stone.

Q. Isn’t it a more difficult thing to be an academic
teacher than a study hall teacher?

A. Often times it is not.
Q. What would make the difference?

[fol. 466] A. Administrative duties, the disciplinary
duties in maintaining order, assigning the library refer
ence work, of general different types, and the larger num
ber of individuals at any one time means an .attending
larger responsibility for the study hall keeper.

Q. In your best judgment, is Jewell Stone worth the
salary, worth to the Little Bock Public School System as
much as $907.00 ?

A. I think she is, but I still don’t think they are com
parable positions.

Q. Is she worth substantially more than that?
A. She is worth more than that.
Q. In your best judgment, is Bernice Bass worth more

than the sum of $720.00?
A. I believe not. If 1 thought she had been, I probably

would have recommended more.
Q. Would you have actually recommended if in your

best judgment you thought she was worth more than that—

2 6 8

Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, we are going to
object to any theoretical answer, he testified he paid her
that because he thought she was worth it.

Mr. Nash: I wanted to eliminate the word “ probably”
and make it actual.
[fol. 467] Q. Would you object to us using the word
“ probable” in that answer?

Mr. Marshall: I don’t object to the answer he has
made, but I do object and made my objection to the next
answer.

Mr. Nash: I withdraw the last question, if you don’t
object to the first one.

Q. You have been invited to compare H. B. Campbell,
of the Dunbar High School, which teacher holds a Master
of Science Degree and teaches English, with other Masters
teaching English in the Little Rock Senior High School.
Tell whether or not it is possible to compare an individual
with a group of others.

A. I do not think so.
Q. Has it been your practice to do so?
A. No, we compare them as individuals.
Q. In order to arrive at a comparative relationship be

tween H. B. Campbell and the other teachers holding Mas
ters Degrees, what would be necessary?

A. I think they would have to be considered as indi
vidual teachers instead of as a group.

Q. Can you employ teachers by groups and pay them
by groups?

A. I suppose you could, but it would not be, in my
opinion, a, good way to do it.
[fol. 468] Mr. Nash: May it please the Court, I have here
for introduction as Defendants’ Exhibit No. 5, the actual
rating sheets that were presented in the conference be
tween Mr. Scobee and Mr. Hamilton and Mr. Lewis at
Dunbar in the rating of the Dunbar teachers. These are
the original pencil sheets, jotted down by Mr. Scobee, ex
cept for one or two, possibly, which were made by Mr.
Hamilton, and it will be explained when he takes the stand.

Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, at this stage I
object to them being admitted on the basis of Mr. Nash’s

269

testimony. Let’s find out from Mr. Scobee, and we object
at this stage to it being introduced on the ground there
has been no proper foundation laid by the witness.

The Court: Well, he is doing it now. I
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Mr. Scobee, I hand you Defendant’s Exhibit No. 5.
Will you please identify it?

A. To the best of my information, these are the copies
prepared at the desk of Mr. Lewis in conjunction with
Mr. Hamilton at the time I visited the Dunbar High School
and visited a. number of teachers there.

Q. Is there an individual rating sheet for the individual
[fol. 469] teachers at Dunbar?

A. Yes. They are filled out as individuals.
Q. Are these in your handwriting?
A. Part of them are and part of them are not.
Q. For those that are in your handwriting, how did

you form your conclusions?
A. I foimed my conclusions on the basis of my visit

and with the result of the conference with Mr. Hamilton
and Mr. Lewis.

Q. Why are not all of them in your handwriting? Do
you remember?

A. I recall that I didn’t get to finish the job that day,
this was several days we were working at it, and Mr. Ham
ilton, being the supervisor, was delegated the responsibil
ity of completing the study.

Q. Do you know whether the ones in his handwriting
were made in the office of Mr. Lewis?

A. I do not know.
Q. In whose handwriting is the one for Susie Morris?
A. It is in mine.
Q. Are you prepared to say that these that are in your

handwriting were made at the time all three of you were
present? A. I think so, yes.

Q. After they were prepared, what was subsequently
[fol. 470] done with them?

A. They were given to Mr. Hamilton, the supervisor of
the school, and he was asked to prepare a formal report.

Q. Did they come back into your possession?
A. Yes, they came back typewritten.
Q. Did this particular set come back into your posses

sion?

270

A. These have been in my possession, yes, it came back.
Q. How did they come hack? A. He returned them.
Q. Where have they been since?
A. I think they have been in the files in my office.
Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, we renew our ob

jection to *the admission of these sheets in evidence for
several reasons. As to those not prepared by Mr. Scobee,
they are, of course, inadmissible.

Mr. Nash: May I answer that right now?
Mr. Marshall: Yes, sir.
Mr. Nash: If the Court please, I quite agree at this point

that they are not, but I shall undertake to show by Mr.
Hamilton all those in his handwriting were completed by
them in the presence of Mr. Lewis.
[fol. 471] Mr. Marshall: If your Honor please, it seems to
me the usual-presentation of testimony is to introduce them
by the man who made them and kept them, but here we
have some prepared by Mr. Scobee and some by Mr.
Hamilton turned over to Mr. Hamilton to copy them, and
now Mr. Scobee produces them, and I certainly insist they
are not admissible until Mr. Hamilton has been introduced.

The Court: I will permit these for the time being.
Mr. Marshall: He says these have been out of his

possession.
The Court: Those in his handwriting, I will permit him

to testify as to those.
Mr. Marshall: And, Your Honor, we still make our

objection.
Mr. Nash: And I will offer the others by Mr. Hamilton.
Q. What appears to be the first rating sheet there, Mr.

Scobee?
A. The first individual, you mean?
Q. Yes.
A. Lester Bowie.
Q. Is he a member of the faculty for Dunbar?

[fol. 472] A. He is.
Q. Is that in your handwriting?

271

A. It is.
Q. What is the difference, as it appears in the form, as

it appears there and in the form of Defendant’s Exhibit
No. 2 which I hand you!

A. The items, the headings and the blanks at the top of
the page are practically identical. The gradation is in five
columns on this sheet and three on that one for refinement
purposes.

Q. Are all the points for rating in the one as in the
other ?

A. The points are identical.
Defendant’s Exhibit No. 5.

The above document admitted in evidence as Exhibit No.
5.

(Shown following the Testimony in this printed record.)
[fol. 473] By Mr. Nash:

Q. Mr. Scobee, I hand you Defendants’ Exhibit No. 6
and ask the Court for permission to withdraw it and substi
tute a copy because it is the only official record we have.
Will you identify this, please?

A. This is the individual’s data, card kept for all teach
ers after their employment, for Susie Cowan, changed to
Susie Morris in 1936.

Q. Do you have any other copies of that in the School
Board Office?

A. No, this is the only copy.
Q. Is that a part of the official records of the School

Board? A. Yes.
Q. Does it show there at what salary she was employed?
A. Yes, it shows the yearly salary, the monthly salary

for each year of employment since she began in the em
ployment.

Q. What Avas the initial salary paid her?
A. $620.00.
Q. I hand you Plaintiff’s Exhibit 2-B and ask you that

you identify it.
A. This is the application blank of Susie Cowan, or

Morris, which Avas filed, and which is kept on file in the
office as part of the permanent records of the office.

Q. Will you turn to page 3 thereof and state Avhat salary
she AATas Avilling to be employed at ?

272

[fol. 474] A. The figures $540.00 appear here.
Q. Does it show whether she was employed at the time

she filed that application f
A. It indicates her present salary which was $765.00.
Q. Mr. Scobee, state whether or not so far as you know

there are any colored teachers in the Little Rock Public
School System who receive as much or more salary than
white teachers of comparable positions.

A. Yes, sir, there are a few.
Q. I ask that you compare a teacher by the name of Ella

Dickey, teaching at the Gibbs School, with a teacher by the
name of Marion Cobb, teaching at Pulaski Heights Gram
mar School.

A. You mean from the record which I have before me?
Q. Yes. I ask that you do that without reference to

the particular column or heading.
A. All right. Ella Dickey has two years’ college train

ing, she has thirty-three years’ experience in Little Rock,
she has no experience elsewhere, she teaches 6-B and 5-A,
her salary is $1,012.77; and Marion Cobb has two and a
half years’ college training, fourteen years’ experience in
Little Rock, no experience elsewhere, teaches 6-A grade,
and has a salary of $977.65.

Q. Is the 6-A grade a comparable teaching level with
6-B and 5-A?
[fol. 475] A. It is.

Q. In your best judgment, how would you account for
the difference in salary, if it can he accounted for?

A. Well, the difference there could he accounted for
by the longer tenure of Ella Dickey.

Q. Do you consider one a better teacher than the other?
A. The information I have had—no, there is not a great

deal of difference between the two.
Q. Is, in your best judgment, Marion Cobb entitled to

a salary of $977.00? A. I think so.
Q. In your best judgment, is Ella Dickey entitled to a

salary in the sum of $1012.00? A. I think so.
Q. Is she entitled to substantially more than that?
A. I wouldn’t be sure.
Q. Is Marion Cobb entitled to substantially more than

$977.00?
A. I wouldn’t think so.

Q. Which is the white teacher?
A. Marion Cobb is the white teacher.
Q. And Mrs. Dickey colored?
A. She is colored, yes.
Q. In your opinion, was there any discrimination as

between the two teachers in respect of their teaching abil
ities? A. Probably not.
[fol. 476] Q. I ask that you compare the same teacher
with a teacher by the name of Marie F. Shelton. Do you
know what school she teaches in? A. Parham.

Q. And will you compare the two teachers, please?
A. Ella Dickey, two years’ college, thirty-three years’

experience in Little Rock and no experience elsewhere,
teaching 6-B and 5-A, with a salary of $1012.77; and
Mary Frances Shelton, Bachelor of Science and Education,
Thirteen years in Little Rock, no experience elsewhere,
teaches 5-A and 5-B, salary $982.28.

Q. Both teaching on a comparable teaching level?
A. They are.
Q. In your best judgment, does any discrimination exist

there so far as teaching abilities are concerned?
A. Well, Mrs. Shelton is considered a very superior

teacher. WTe consider her to be a better teacher—
Q. You didn’t compare them with reference to train

ing?
A. Mary Frances Shelton has twice as much training at

the college level as Ella Dickey, two years and compared
to four.

Q. To what extent would that serve to level the
difference in tenure?

A. It would contribute materially in that direction.
Q. I ask you to compare—will you designate which is

[fol. 477] the white teacher and which is the colored
teacher?

A. Ella Dickey is the colored, and Mary Frances Shel
ton is white.

Q. In your best judgment, is Mary F. Shelton worth a
salary of $972.00? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is she worth substantially more ?
A. I think she is.

18—12,887

274

Q. As between these two teachers, would you say that
one receives more than the other in comparison to their
training and teaching ability?

A. I would say that Ella Dickey receives more than
Mary Frances Shelton.

Q. I ask you to compare the same Mary Frances
Shelton, teaching at Parham School, with Emma Pattillo,
a teacher in Gibbs and designate which is which.

A. Which one did you mention first?
Q. Mary F. Shelton, with Emma Pattillo.
A. Mary Frances Shelton, a white teacher at Parham

School, Bachelor of Science in Education, thirteen years’
experience in Little Rock, no experience elsewhere, teaching
5-A and 5-B, salary $982.28; Emma Pattillo, Bachelor of
Science Degree, twenty-seven years’ of experience in
Little Rock, no experience elsewhere, teaching literary
appreciation, salary $1012.77.
[fol. 478] Q. Is there a difference in the comparable
teaching levels between the two teachers?

A. Not comparable.
Q. In your best judgment, is the difference in salary

justifiable?
A. I don’t think so in this instance.
Q. In which direction do you think the change should

be made?
A. I think Mary Frances Shelton should have more

salary.
Q. More salary than she now has?
A. Than she now has.
Q. Do you think that Emma Pattillo is worth to our

School System the sum of $1012.00?
A. I believe she is.
Q. Is she Avorth substantially more?
A. I think not.
Q. If any discrimination of salary exists as between

these two teachers, in whose favor does it exist?
A. It would be in favor of Emma Pattillo.
Q. I ask that you compare a teacher in the Bush School

by the name of Cornelia Bruce with a teacher by the name
of Margaret Farmer, Avho teaches in the Pulaski Heights
Grammar School. Designate them and offer a comparison.

A. It is Cornelia Bruce and Margaret Farmer, is it not?

275

Q. Yes. Designate which is which.
A. Cornelia Bruce, colored, no college training, thirty-

[fol. 479] two years’ experience in Little Rock, seven
years elsewhere, teaching 1-B and 1-A, salary $1195.49;
Margaret Farmer, two years of college work, eighteen
years’ experience in Little Rock, no experience elsewhere,
teaching 3-A, salary $1198.41, that is a white teacher.

Q. The white teacher has a hit more salary, has she not?
A. She has $2.92 more.
Q. Are they teaching at the same levels, teaching

levels?
A. Generally speaking, both in the primary.
Q. In your best judgment, is Margaret Farmer worth

to our school system the sum of $1198.00?
A. Yes.
Q. Is she worth substantially more?
A. I think so.
Q. In your best judgment, is Cornelia Bruce worth to

our public school system the sum of $1195.00?
A. I don’t think so.
Q. Is she worth substantially less?
A. Some less, yes.
Q. As between these two teachers, if discrimination

exists, which one is favored?
A. Cornelia Bruce.
Q. The colored teacher?
A. I think so.
Q. Will you also compare Cornelia Bruce with Jewell

[fol. 480] Owen, a teacher in Pulaski Heights Grammar
School.

A. Cornelia Bruce, a colored teacher, with no college
training, thirty-two years’ experience in Little Rock, seven
years elsewhere, teaching 1-B and 1-A, salary $1195.49;
Jewell Owen, one year of college, fifteen years of experience
in Little Rock, ten years’ experience elsevdiere, teaching
4-A, $1120.28.

Q. Are they teaching on comparable teaching levels?
A. I would say similar teaching levels, but not exactly

comparable because they did not both happen to be in
the same department,

Q. In your best judgment, is Jewell Owen worth the
sum of $1120.00 to the Little Rock Public School System?

276

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is she worth substantially more?
A. Probably some more, yes, sir.
Q. Would you be willing to employ her—strike that,

please—As between the two teachers, if there is any dis
crimination, in whose favor is it?

A. It is in favor of Cornelia Bruce.
Q. The colored teacher? A. The colored teacher.
Q. I ask that you compare a teacher by the name of Vera

Murphy, teaching in the Bush School, with a teacher by
the name of Mary F. Shelton, a teacher at Parham, and
[fol. 481] designate them, offer a comparison.

A. Vera Murphy, the colored teacher, two years ’ college
work, thirty-two years* experience in Little Rock, no
experience elsewhere, teaching 6-A and 6-B, a salary of
$1012.77; and Mary Frances Shelton, a white teacher,
Bachelor of Science in Education, thirteen years’ experi
ence in Little Rock, no experience elsewhere, teaching 5-A
and 5-B, salary $982.28.

Q'. In your best judgment, is Mary F. Shelton entitled
to a salary of $982.00? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Based on her abilities? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is she worth substantially more than that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why has no more been paid to these teachers who

appear to be worth more? A. I do not know v hv.
Q. In your best judgment, is Vera Murphy entitled to

the sum of $1012.00 as salary? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is she worth a substantially larger sum of money?
A. I do not think so.
Q. How do you account for the fact—strike that, please

—as between the two teachers, if a discrimination exists
[fol. 482] in whose favor does it exist?

A. It exists, I think, in favor of Vera Murphy.
Q. The colored teacher? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why do you say that when it appears that she has

taught for a period of thirty-two years as compared to
the other teacher, the white teacher’s thirteen years? _

A. Well, as a matter of fact, there are other factors in
volved in that and entering into that besides the bare
fact of tenure.

Q. Does the difference in training account for any of
that? A. Some of it.

277

Q. I ask that you compare a teacher by the name of
Emma Ingram, teaching in Stephens, with a teacher by
the name of Mrs. J. B. Dickinson, of Riglitsell, and desig
nate them.

A. Emma Ingram, colored, two years’ college training,
thirty-four years’ experience in Little Rock, no experience
elsewhere, teaching first grade, $1012.77; Mrs. J. B. Dickin
son, a white teacher, ninety-five hours’ training—

Q. H ow many years would that he?
A. That’s the equivalant of slightly more than three,

teaches 2-B, I beg pardon, sixteen and a half years ’ experi
ence in Little Rock, one year elsewhere, teaches 2-B,
$975.50 salary.

Q. In your best judgment, is Mrs. Dickinson worth to
[fol.483] our Public School System as much as $975.00?

A. I think so.
Q. Is she worth substantially more?
A. Yes, she is worth more than that.
Q. In your best judgment, is Vera Murphy worth to

our Public School System the sum of $1012.00!
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. I mean Emma Ingram—let me repeat that question

—To your best judgment, is Emma Ingram worth to our
Public School System $1012.00? A. I think so.

Q. Is she worth substantially more?
A. I don’t think so.
Q. Are they teaching on comparable teaching levels?
A. Yes, sir, both in the primary.
Q. As between the two of them, if any discrimination

exists, in whose favor do you think it exists?
A. I think it exists in Emma Ingram’s favor.
Q. Mr. Scobee, there has been some testimony offered

relative to distribution of a certain bonus distributed on
the basis three dollars per unit to white teachers and a
dollar and a half to colored teachers. Did you prepare
the method or plan for distribution? A. I did not.

Q. Did you assist in it?
[fol. 484] A. I was familiar with it.

Q. Did you recommend its adoption to the Little Rock
School Board?

A. Yes, sir, after it was presented to me by the Com
mittee.

278

Q. Why did you recommend it?
A. Well, I recommended it for two or three reasons.

The first place, it is prepared by a Committee of our lead
ing teachers and encouragement of them seemed desirable.
Another reason was that it was a special payment that
had nothing to do with contract salaries or the status of
individual teachers with reference to their contiact; and
then as comparing, as all teachers were compared, I ran
a few percentage figures, and thinking in terms of all
teachers in the system, the amount of percentages on the
basis of their present salaries did not seem out of line.

Q. I hand you Plaintiff’s Exhibit 3-A and 3-B, which
are the forms sent out to the school teachers in connection
with this bonus distribution. Are these distributions—
strike that—are these units—no, strike that—now, under
the plan outlined in exhibits, would the teachers fall into
several brackets?

A. Yes, sir, they would fall into many groups.
Q. What would be the effect of the distribution as to

teachers within the same bracket?
A. Well, within a single bracket, the white teachers

[fol. 485] would get twice as much as the colored.
Q. Would that be true on a percentage basis?
A. Not exactly, because there are variable salaries

within each group.,
Q. To that extent, is the distribution plan unfair to

the colored teachers? A. To that extent, yes.
Q. As between teachers within different brackets, what

would the situation be ?
A. Comparison between two flatten out and become less

different on an individual basis.
Q. When you recommended the plan of distribution

to the School Board, did you have in mind race and color?
A. No.
Q. Was there any discussion in the meeting of the

School Board as to the differentiation between the two
classes? A. I do not recall any.

Q. Did anyone question you as to why the one was
paid more than the other?

A. They raised the question once as to the amount that
each individual received as to comparison with their pres
ent salary.

279

Q. Did you answer the question for them!
A. I think I indicated to them that as a whole the com

parative figures for the teachers were not much different,
[fol. 486] Q. Could you have been mistaken in your
analysis at that time? A. Absolutely.

Q. Reference has been made to a certain petition for
adjustment in their salaries filed by the colored teachers,
I believe, in the spring of 1941. Do you recall such a
petition? A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall whether or not it was filed prior to
the time that Mr. Jennings became a member of the School
Board ?

A. I do not exactly recall just when that was filed, but
it probably was. I could not say about that,

Q. Before we leave this plan of distribution, do you
recall how much money was to be distributed under that
plan?

A. There was about fourteen thousand, eight hundred
and some dollars. The minutes of the Board will reflect
that, in the fall meeting; and forty thousand dollars in
the June distribution.

Q. Do you happen to recall the total budget for teach
ers’ salary, approximately?

A. It is about five hundred and ninety to ninety-five
thousand dollars.

Q. Do you know about how much of that is or would
go to the colored teachers? A. I do not know.
[fol. 487] Q. Mr. Scobee, I hand you Plaintiff’s Exhibit
No. 4. Is that a schedule in use by the Little Rock Public
School Board for the fixing of salaries? A. It is not.

Q. Have you ever consulted it in fixing salaries for
applicants ?

A. I never saw this document until the opening of the
trial.

Q- Have you seen any similar document prior to this
trial A. My answer is negative.

Q. Have you used any similar document in preparing
or in recommending salaries A. I have not.

Mr. Nash: May it please the Court, I may say at this
time that after I have identified some of our exhibits
through the testimony of Mr. Hamilton and our sponsors,
I may want to recall Mr. Scobee back to the stand on our

280

part of the case in order to develop a further comparison
of certain teachers and abilities.

The Court: All right.
Mr. Nash: With that you may take the witness.

Redirect Examination.
Mr. Marshall: May it please the Court, at this time may

[fol. 488] we have the record to show that the Defendant’s
Exhibit No. 3, labeled “ Little Rock Public Schools Report
of Personnel” , which is composed of several sheets of paper
mimeogTaplied, and that it is divided into the columns
as this: Teacher, training, experience, Little Rock and
other, assignment 1941-42, rating, salary and notes; was
mimeographed on the original sheet, and that under the
column “ rating” for each teacher were typed in and not
mimeographed, and the information under the column
“ notes” were typed in and not on the original mimeo
graph sheet. May we have the record to so show1?

The Court: Yes, I guess they will agree to that.
Mr. Nash: Yes, that is correct.
Mr. Loughborough: Yes, that is correct, as I understand

it, it was all made at the same time and run through the
typewriter after the column was made up.

Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, may we also have
the record also show that throughout the testimony of Mr.
Scobee by examination by Mr. Nash in comparing indi
vidual teachers that Mr. Scobee used Defendant’s Ex
hibit No. 3 in getting the material by which he gave the
[fol. 489] answers? It doesn’t show in the record how he
was sitting up there using it.

The Court: I guess there is no dispute about that.
Mr. Loughborough: The record will not show what he

referred to in making his answers, but that he referred
to it in getting the information through which he made
his answers, that is the difference of what the record
will show.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. These rating sheets that were handed out in Sep
tember, 1941, they were to be used through the school
year between September and when school closed in May?

281

A. Yes.
Q. And is it true that these rating sheets show the

impression that whoever made them out, gone over the
teaching for the entire school year?

A. That is right, on an annual basis.
Q. And when were they put in final form?
A. What do you mean by that, Mr. Marshall ?
Q. The Defendant’s Exhibit No. 1, the composite.
A. This was put in a final form some time after the

close of the school year, the first week or two of June.
Q. Of this year, 1942? A. That is right.

[fol. 490] Q. Now, Mr. Scobee, I ask you whether or not
__no, strike that—when was the list of teachers for the
school year 1941-42 prepared, about?

A. They were elected in the spring of 1941.
Q. And when—
A. And assigned to the schools from—by the Board in

the August meeting of 1941 for the 1941-42 school year..
Q. And the list of teachers and their salaries for the

school year of 1942-43 was adopted by the School Board
about when? A. About May.

Q. 1942?
A. I should say about the 27th, 28th or 29th.
Q. 1942?
A. That is right.
Q. Since that day, with exception of a few new teachers

appointed to the system, has there been any change in
salary level of any teacher? A. A very few.

Q. How many? Does it not show up in the July and
August minutes?

A. I believe it does. I think that the minutes would re
flect the truth, that only a. very few changes were made.

Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, at this stage we
[fol. 491] wish to renew our objection to the Defendants’
Exhibit No. 1 because the evidence shows that this com
posite, which is in evidence, was prepared not only after
the salaries were fixed for 1941-42, but it was prepared
•after the salaries for 1942-43 was prepared, so, quite ob
viously, it can’t have any place in this salary, on these
salaries which was prepared after all the salaries had
been fixed, and on that basis we renew our objection and
move it be stricken from the record.

282

Mr. Loughborough: If the Court please, there is nothing
important there as I see it, possibly it might be that the
list of teachers in this rating sheet was put on there, but
all this data was assembled before the contracts were made
for the new year, as 1 understand it, and the mechanics of
just putting it on that list was from then. I will ask Mr.
Scobee if that is right.

Mr. Scobee: That is correct. The data was assembled.
The Court: Whatever its contents ai’e, you considered

them in fixing salaries?

A. Never at any time. This was not for the purpose of
fixing salaries.

Q. But you did that—
[fol. 492] A. The information was added, and the com
ment and the paragraphing, and the transcription of in
formation was put into this.

Q. What I was asking you, did you consider the in
formation you had added and the comment in fixing sal
aries ?

A. Partially so, the information was there.

Mr. Marshall: May I ask this question? Did you use in
fixing the salaries down the line, did you use this sheet?

A. I did not.
The Court: Information on this sheet or the information

you had?

A. I had the information at hand.
Q. And before April? A. Yes, sir.
The Court: Even though the salaries were fixed, I will

admit it for the purpose of showing there was not discrim
ination. It is a circumstance that goes to that feature of
the case as to whether or not there is discrimination, and
I will consider it as to whether there is a discrimination or
not. It is a circumstance that I would consider.

Mr. Marshall: We renew our objection, and it is over
ruled?

The Court: It is overruled.

283

[fol. 493] By Mr. Marshall:
Q. Mr. Scobee, were you present at the time that each

one of these rating sheets Avas made out?
A. Not every one of them, no.
Q. The rating sheet for the teachers at Dunbar, I think

you testified, were made in the presence of Mr. Lewis.
A. The original notes were taken in the presence of

Mr. Lewis.
Q. And was it his rating, did he agree on that?
A. There was no material disagreement.
Q. As a matter of fact, isn’t it true that subsequent to

that you asked Mr. Lewis for a grouping of his teachers?
A. Yes.
Q. Isn’t it true this group was in direct opposition to

this grouping of yours? A. I am not sure.
Q. Did you consider it? A. I did.
Q. Do you have a copy of that?
A. I don’t know whether it is in the office or not.
Q. I understand, do I not, Mr. Scobee, that after you

prepared these sheets you left them with Mr. Hamilton?
A. That is true.
Q. And he put them in final form?
A. That is right.

[fol. 494] Q. Did you have anything to do in preparing
the final form? A. I did not.

Q. So that Mr. Hamilton had to use his own judgment
as to that five column sheet as to Susie Morris?

A. To a certain extent, yes.
Q. Because you didn’t mark her on the five-sheet basis?
A. I did not.
Q. You marked her on the three-point basis?
A. That is right, I did.
Q. As a matter of fact, you marked all the teachers at

Dunbar on the three-point basis? A. I did.
Q. So, actually, the man who did the actual rating on

the five-column sheet on the Dunbar teachers was Mr.
Hamilton. A. That is right.

Q. The final sheets. A. That is right.
Q. When you visited Miss Morris’ class, did you look

at her lesson plan? A. No.
Q. How can you decide what she has as a plan?
A. That is evidenced by her class lesson plan.
Q. What would that be?

284

A. Her class procedure.
[fol. 495] Q. And you considered she didn’t have any?

A. Yes, she had some of it.
Q. But very low?
A. No, not very low. It wasn’t at the bottom.
Q. Well, let’s get it. (Hands to witness). How many

of the parents of the students of Susie Morris have you
talked to? A. I have only one, Mr. Marshall.

Q. Who was that?
A. I believe it was a fellow by the name of Taylor.
Q. Isn’t he the same one that made the complaint about

her about which she testified? A. Yes.
Q. And hasn’t he complained about practically every

teacher at Dunbar? A. Not to me.
Q. Not to you? A. No.
Q. Is that the basis for putting her in column four?
A. Part of it.
Q. But what part?
A. I am talking about the recommendation of the super

visor.
Q. So as to that, you did not mark her of your own

personal knowledge?
A. That is right, except to that extent.

[fol. 496] Q. How about her community activity?
A. That is hearsay with me. I trust the supervisor for

that.
Q. Professional relations. Where did you get that?
A. Oh, assuming—from the principal.
Q. Maintenance of class standards. Could you get that?
A. Yes, sir. Yes, I think I could judge whether or not

or what the standard would be.
Q. Do you think you are capable of judging a teacher

in ten minutes? A. No.
Q. How long were you in Susie Morris’ class?
A. I wasn’t in there over fifteen minutes.
Q. Do you think that is enough time?
A. It is not.
Q. So you would not say that this is actually an evi

dence of her ability as a teacher ?
A. I think it is an indication of it, but I wouldn’t be

satisfied with its completeness.
Q. Would you be willing to fix her salary solely on

that? A. I would not.

285

Q. I think you testified, Mr. Scobee, that you had been
over the minutes looking for the salary schedule.

A. Yes, I looked for it.
Q. And you have looked up a question about salaries

back to about 1925?
[fol. 497] A. I think so, looking specifically for the sal
ary schedule.

Q. Do you remember running across the minutes of
January the 31st, 1938, starting with the statement, “ The
Executive Committee of the Teachers’ Organization sub
mitted the following schedule of salaries amounting to a
total of $800.00. The Finance Committee having approved
the list, it was moved and seconded that it be adopted.
Carried by the following vote: Aye: McDermott, Bale,
Rawlings, Scott, Terry, McDonnell.” And I point out to
you the following report which was submitted on the
above motion and ask you as to whether or not it does not
refer repeatedly to the salary schedule.

A. The word “ schedule” is used in there, but what I
know of this would be purely from the record.

Q. The question is as to whether or not the word
“ schedule of salaries” appears throughout that report,
those words.

A. I say it is, I say it again. I see the word “ schedule”
several times.

Q. Several times! A. Yes.
Q. And is it not true that it says all new teachers to

be employed at not less than 67.5% of the schedule of 1928,
or $90 a month?

A. Yes, that is in the record.
[fol. 498] Q. And does it not also say that the schedulo
for new teachers shall be ultimately $810, for the ele
mentary, junior high $910, and senior high $945?

A. It says that.
Q. And is it not also true that there are throughout

the minutes entries referring to the salary schedule?
A. I think the words appear elseAvhere in the minutes.
Q. Well, would you consider the statement, “ The

schedule for new teachers shall be Elementary $810, Junior
High $910, Senior High $945,” as being what is generally
accepted in administrative school circles as a minimum
salary schedule? A. I wouldn’t think so.

Q. What would you consider it?

2 8 6

A. I consider that as an effort to set a definite scale or
a standard for one year.

Q. Which is the first year!
A. For the year in which that was made. I cannot

make any testimony about that. I was not here and know
nothing about it.

Q. Well, can you name me any white teacher that has
been appointed since that time at less than $810.00 S

A. No.
Q. Can you name me any single high school teacher

since that time, I mean junior high, that has been appointed
[fol. 499] at less than $910.00! A. Yes, I think so.

Q. Can you name any!
A. I believe Rhoda Wharry was.
Q. $900.00! A. $900.00.
Q. That is a beginning teacher! A. Yes.
Q. And you appointed some senior high teachers at

$900.00! A. Yes, some.
Q. But you have stuck to $810.00 for elementary teach

ers!
A. With some subjects, not in every case, I am sure.
Q. Would you be willing during the recess to see

whether you have appointed any elementary teachers,
white, at less than $810.00!

A. I don’t recall that now, there may be some.
Q. You do not recall any! A. No.
Q. The fact that the teachers new to the system em

ployed to teach in the white elementary schools is not paid
less than the $810.00, that is not conceded to limit the sched
ule of the salary!

A. In my opinion, it does not.
Q. In spite of the fact it appears in that schedule!
A. Yes, sir.

[fol. 500] Q. And doesn’t it, in running through the min
utes, you said you did, didn’t you see repeatedly reference
to the 1928 schedule!

A. I do not remember much of the word “ 1928” . I
have seen the word “ schedule” .

Q1. Yes, sir, doesn’t it show that the 1928 schedule was
maintained!

A. Those words do appear in the minutes.
Q. You were asked on examination by Mr. Nash to com

pare certain teachers. Now, I would like for you to use

287

the same material to compare, compare the plaintiff, Susie
Morris, with other teachers in the system, and, first, I
believe I ask you if it is not true that she gets less than
any white teacher? A. That is true.

Q. That is not even an elementary school teacher?
A. Yes.
Q. As a matter of fact, doesn’t Susie Morris get less

than some janitors of the Public School System?
A. I don’t have the list of janitors.
Q. Let’s stick to what we have then. Isn’t it time in

going through the list of salaries that usually, everything
else being equal, high school teachers are paid more than
elementary? A. Generally speaking.
[fol. 501] Q. Generally speaking ? A. Yes.

Q. So that everything being equal, Susie Moms would
be entitled to more than the average elementary teacher?

A. Generally speaking.
Q. Well, she does get less than any elementary white

teacher, even though new to the system with no experience
at all. A. That is right.

Q. 'iou don’t consider her, in your judgment, worse
than any white teacher? A. No.

Q. How does it happen she gets less than any white
teacher? A. I didn’t fix her salary.

Q. Didn’t you fix her salary in 1941?
A. I reneAved her contract.
Q. Didn’t you recommend the salary she was to receive

from the Personnel Committee? A. Yes.
Q. Didn’t you recommend it this year? A. Yes.
Q. As a matter of fact, didn’t you fix her salary?
A. I do not have the right to fix it.
Q. Didn’t you recommend her salary? A. Yes.
Q. I am asking you why you recommended her at less

[fol. 502] than any white teacher in the school system.
A. Repeat your question.
Q. Why did you recommend a salary for Susie Morris

of less than any salary you recommended for any white
teacher in the school system?

A. The real reason A v a s that a v c had this suit pending
and Ave did not want any changes.

Q. The suit Avas not pending in May, 1940, Avas it?
A. No.

288

Q. Why did you at that time recommend her at less
than you did for any white teacher in the system?

A. I had very insufficient evidence on all of the teach
ers at that time, and I would not risk my judgment. I was
using the judgment of a predecessor.

Q. Are you ready yet to risk your judgment?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Tentatively? A. Yes, I am.
Q. Do you think you are ready to do it as a finality ?
A. Not absolutely on all teachers, because I do not have

all of the information.
Q. As a matter of fact, you don’t have all of the infor

mation on Susie Morris, do you?
A. Not as much as I would like to have.
Q. According to the record, is it not true that Susie

[fol. 503] Morris has an A. B. Degree with six years’ ex
perience in Little Kock and five years outside?

A. The records so show.
Q1. The salary of $706.00? A. That is right.
Q. Does the record also show that Lillian Lane had an

A. B. Degree, which is the same. Would you classify it
the same as Susie Morris’ A. B.?

A. I think so. I could refer to it and find out.
Q. Is her A. B. Degree comparable to Susie Morris’ ?
A. I think so.
Q. And at the time she was appointed last year, she

had no experience.
A. The record shows no experience, but her, the appli

cation indicates that she does have some. There is a dis
agreement between the two.

Q. How would you account for that?
A. I don’t know, an error somewhere, I suppose.
Q. Where was the error? In that posted sheet?
A. I think the error will be here rather than in the

application.
Q. Well, now, in making up the salaries for these teach

ers, did you use the application blank?
A. Generally speaking.
Q. I mean when you reappointed them you checked

[fol. 504] each application blank? A. No, no.
Q. So if there is any error in that composite, there will

come out an error on the salary schedule?. A. Yes.

289

Q. And, according to this, Miss Lane has about ten
years’ experience?

A. No, here is one, there is five—that is right.
Q. Ten years’ experience? A. Yes.
Q. But it just appears on the application blank?
A. Yes, she was here such a short time all of the in

formation was not verified.
Q'. So, then, it is understandable how she would get

$900.00? A. Yes.
Q. I mean Miss Lane. A. Yes.
Q. All right. Marie Paul Jefferson. What college

training did she have?
A. She has four years, the report shows, with a degree

awarded from Central College, Fayette, Missouri.
Q. And is that an accredited school? A. Yes.
Q. And you say she got her degree after she was ap

pointed?
A. No, she got her degree in 1932, according to this

[fol. 505] record. It is a four-year degree.
Q. And how is it that on the composite sheet it shows

four instead of a degree? Doesn’t the composite sheet up
there show four?

A. I believe it does. She was here only a short time—
yes.

Q. So that already there are two mistakes on that com
posite sheet already? A. Yes.

Q. I think you have already testified as to Mrs. Cath
erine Lee, who has an A. B. Degree. Is that comparable to
Susie Morris’ degree?

A. Do you know what school Mrs. Lee is in?
Q. One of the junior highs. A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is it comparable with Miss Morris’ ?
A. I don’t know where that degree is from. The de

grees are the same, but I don’t of what institution.
Q. It could not be any better, they are both from ac

credited schools. A. That is right.
Q. Could not be any better? A. Yes.
Q1. She has been teaching the same number of years that

Miss Morris, whereas the plaintiff has five years outside
the state. Miss Lee has two years outside the city.

19—12,887

290

[fol. 506] A. The record so shows.
Q. So in your record it shows Mrs. Lee’s salary is

$1006.00 and Miss Morris’ $726.00, and the reason for
that?

A. I don’t know any reason for that.
Q. You can’t give any reason at all?
A. No definite reason.
Q. All right. Going back to Miss Rhoda Wharry, who

has a B. S, E. Here is the application. Teaches in Pulaski
Heights, and according to the sheet she has no experience
in Little Rock. A. That’s right.

Q. Two years elsewhere? A. That is right.
Q. And her salary is correct? A. Yes.
Q. Will you turn over to page three and let us know

what salary she Avas willing to come for? A. $800.00.
Q. How much did you pay her?
A. $900.00, I believe.
Q. $900.00? A. Let me check the record. $900.00.
Q. First of all, I ask you why she is paid $194.00 more

than Susie Morris.
A. I thought at the time she was worth $900.00.

[fol. 507] Q. But you had never seen Susie Morris teach
at that time? A. No.

Q. On what basis would you arrive at that conclusion?
A. On the evidence presented in the application and as

a result of my investigation of the candidate.
Q. You think then that a candidate with no teaching

experience in Little Rock and with only two elsewhere and
with a comparable degree would be worth more than a
teacher that had been teaching six years in Little Rock?

A. It is highly possible.
Q. Would that be the exception to the rule?
A. I would not say exception.
Q. Can you name any white teacher that you are paying

less than you pay beginning Negro teachers?
A. What figure?
Q. Well, do you have any white teacher in the Senior

High School getting less than $900.00?
A. No.
Q. So that you consider all of your teachers in the

system as better teachers than the new teachers?
A. Not necessarily.

291

Q. Well, you pay them more, don’t you pay the teachers
with experience in your system in the white schools more
than you pay new white teachers?

A. Some we do and some we do not.
[fol. 508] Q. I ask you if you have any white teachers
in the white school that you pay less than $900.00.

A. And I said “ no” .
Q. And that is the minimum that you hire white teach

ers in the white schools for?
A. I hire them for what I consider them to be worth.
Q. Have you hired any for less than $900.00?
A. I have not.
Q. So any teacher that has been teaching in the white

high school for you gets more than a new teacher?
A. No, I have teachers that is getting less.
Q. Do you have any teacher in the white high school

with six years’ experience that you pay a salary as you
paid the new white teachers?

A. I don’t think so.
Q. So you do not consider Miss Rhoda Wharry as being

more valuable than any other white teacher in the system,
do you?

A. I don’t quite understand the question.
Q. You don’t consider her as more valuable than all

white teachers you already had in the high school?
A. No, not more valuable.
Q. But you did consider her more valuable than Susie

Morris?
A. I do for the purpose of election.
Q. What do you mean by “ for the purpose of election” ?

[fol. 509] A. Because Susie Morris’ salary was set before
I had anything to do with it.

Q. All right. Do you usually give credit for experience
in the fixing of salaries, everything else being equal?

A. I try to evaluate some experience, some experience
is valuable and some is not. You mean experience else
where ?

Q. Experience in Little Rock.
A. Yes, it is worth something.
Q. Do you know a teacher in the Dunbar High School by

the name of Clarice Little, twenty-six years’ experience,
A. B. Degree, teaching English.

292

A. I don’t think I know her personally.
Q. Can you give any reason why she gets almost $70.00

less than Miss Rhoda Wharry, new to the system, other
than the fact she is colored and Miss Wharry is white 1

A. I don’t know the circumstances hack of which Miss
Little’s salary was originally set.

Q. You can’t explain why Miss Little with an A. B.
Degree and twenty-six years’ experience gets almost $70.00
less than Miss Wharry, with a B. S. E. Degree, a Bachelor’s
Degree, and no experience in Little Rock? You can give
no explanation of that? A. No.

Q. Can you explain that Miss Flora Armitage, a white
teacher in the junior high school with only two years’
[fol. 510] college and twenty-seven years’ experience
gets $2,729.00?

A. Which one of the schools?
Q. West Side. She has no college degree?
A. No.
Q. Twenty-seven years’ experience, which is just one

year more than Miss Little.
A. (None).
Q. I think you testified on examination by Mr. Nash

that in the similar situation like that you would be inclined
to give a little more for a degree in explanation of a
difference in salary.

A. I think that is true.
Q. How is it Miss Flora Armitage, being a white teacher,

gets almost $600.00 more than Miss Little?
A. There may be a difference in teachers.
Q. But you did not know of the difference when you

fixed these salaries?
A. I did know that Miss Armitage is a very good

teacher.
Q. But you did not know what kind of a teacher Miss

Little was?
A. I knew she was not quite so good.
Q. I thought a minute ago you said you didn’t even

remember Miss Little when you were first asked about her.
A. I have the record.
Q. Are you judging what kind of teacher she is by your

[fol. 511] record? A. No.
Q. That record wasn’t before you in 1940-41?

293

A. That is right.
Q. All you had before you in 1940-41 was these facts?
A. That is right.
Q. Still you recommended Miss Little for $700.00 less

than Miss Armitage.
A. I think the answer will be the same, that in 1941 I

had insufficient evidence to make any changes in the
salaries.

Q. Do you remember in 1942 cheeking up on Miss
Little ?

A. No.
Q. So you don’t have any better information this year

than you did last year? A. No.
Q. And you still let her stand down there and at less

money than any teacher in any white high school?
A. There was not any change in these salaries this year

except a very few.
Q. In explaining the difference between Mr. Scott,

who teaches in Dunbar with an M. A., and Mr. Elliott, I
think it was Mr. Elliott, you testified Mr. Elliott was the
head coach in your high school or of your high school.

A. Yes.
Q. And some other mathematic teachers were assistant

coaches.
[fol. 512] A. Mr. Gardner.

Q. Do you know that Mr. Scott is an assistant coach
at Dunbar ?

A. I know that Dunbar does not have as elaborate a
schedule.

Q. My question is, do you know that Mr. Scott is an
assistant coach at Dunbar? A. I do not.

Q. As a matter of fact, you don’t know much about
what the teachers at Dnubar are doing.

A. Not altogether, no.
Q. So that—
A. The information is not complete.
Q. So that if you use in rating the additional work that

the white teachers do as over against additional work that
the Negro teachers do, you would not be in position to do
that, would you? A. I think not.

Q. Now, let’s run down the list. I see this Mr. Bigbee.
Does he do any coaching or extra work?

294

A. He is in charge of the business management of the
high school finances.

Q. Mr. W. N. Ivy, does he do any special work?
A. Yes, I think he is hall disciplinarian.
Q. And, all right. M. C. Moser.
A. He has some duties in connection with the athletic

[fol. 513] department.
Q. Miss Clara Cobb doesn’t do any—
A. I don’t know of any extra duty for her.
Q. Miss Clara Cobb does not do anything extra, and she

has less training than M. C. Moser, and she gets more
money.

A. Miss Cobb has been here twenty-eight years.
Q. It is not altogether on the extra work that you pay

extra money?
A. Not altogether.
Q. And now Mr. Wade L. Davis. What does he do

besides teach mathematics?
A. The principal reports, he has some duties with

reference to administrative things about the building.
Q. All right, how about Mary Reigler?
A. Which one of the schools?
Q. She is in one of the junior high schools. What

does she do extra?
A. She doesn’t have any outside duties.
Q. You pay her for experience?
A. She has thirty years’ experience, one of the best

we have.
Q. Miss Christine (stops)
A. Miss Christine Woolley?
Q. Christine Woolley.
A. Which school?
Q. Hold it. I have some spelling here wrong. I will

[fol. 514] have to withdraw it, I cannot find it.
Q. Have you ever, in comparing the teaching ability of

this particular good teacher here, Mrs. Mary Reigler, have
you ever observed Mr. Scott’s teaching?

A. I don’t think I have, I may have when I visited him,
but I do not recall it.

Q. Now, can you give any reason why Mr. Scott, with
an M. A. Degree, and it is from an accredited school, is
that not correct? A. What is it?

295

Q. Kansas.
A. Kansas is an accredited school.
Q. And has eight years’ experience in Little Rock, four

and a half years elsewhere, and yet he gets $753.25, which
is less than any white teacher in the system. Can you ex
plain that?

A. I don’t think I can, I have no explanation on that.
Q. How about Mr. J. H. Gipson, with an A. B., a mathe

matics teacher at Dunbar, with seventeen years’ experience
in the system and gets $979.02. Is that correct?

A. That is correct.
Q. And isn’t it true that, let’s see, let’s get one like it,

that Mr. William Ivy, with a B. M. E., seventeen—is that
comparable with Mr. Gipson’s degree, a B. M. E. and an
A. B.?
[fol. 515] A. A B. M. E. is a Bachelor of Mechanical
Engineering, and he teaches mechanics.

Q. And has the same experience?
A. I believe so. Ivy?
Q. Ivy and Gipson. Now, is it not true that Mr. Ivy

gets $1854.46? A. That is right.
Q. And Mr. Gipson, a Negro teacher, gets $979.02.
A. If the record so states.
Q. What reason for that, what is the reason for that?
A. Ivy is, as I know, to my knowledge, a very good

teacher, a strong disciplinarian and a valuable man in the
high school.

Q. What do you know about Mr. Gipson, J. H. Gipson?
A. I think he is a very good teacher, but I do not think

he is as good as Ivy.
Q. Have you observed both of them?
A. I have observed Mr. Ivy and Gipson for a short

time.
Q. And do you think there is almost $600.00 difference

between them?
A. As to the amount, I could not say.
Q. As a matter of fact, it is pretty hard to put down that

intangible thing in dollars and cents.
A. It is very difficult.
Q. Verv difficult?

[fol. 516] * A. Yes.
Q. Now, I think we have covered most of those there—

how about N. F. Tull, who does not have any college degree

296

at all? How would you compare fifty-four and a third
hours with an A. B. Degree?

A. It is less than half of it.
Q. Less than half of it? A. Yes.
Q. So in comparing Gipson and Ivy, we have Gipson

with almost twice as much education, or rather than more
than twice as much. A. More than twice as much.

Q. And the years of experience are identical?
A. In Little Rock, yes.
Q. And elsewhere? A. Yes.
Q. Yet Gipson, the colored teacher, gets $979.02 and

Tull, the white teacher, gets $1603.55. Can you give the
reason for that?

A. I do not know that. Mr. Tull is very valuable in his
direction of the boys’ work and business and the boys’
activities in the senior high school.

Q. Do you know what extra-curricula work Mr. Gipson
does? A. No.

Q. So you could not compare the extra work of Mr.
[fol. 517] Tull .as to Mr. Gipson?

A. No, but if it had been as outstanding as Mr. Tull,
I am sure it would have been called to my attention.

Q. But it has not been?
A. No, it has not been.
Q. Going back to this Miss Wooley—it must be an M.
A. Which school?
Q. I take it it must be Pulaski Heights, it is between

Knighton and Mason. A. Yes.
Q. Is it not true she has a B. S. Degree?
A. Yes.
Q. Eleven years’ experience? A. Yes.
Q. In Little Rock, and none outside? A. Yes.
Q. And she had $1440.00, her salary, and she is a white

teacher. Is that correct? A. That is correct.
Q. And yet Gipson, with an A. B. Degree, six years

in Little Rock and four more outside of Little Rock, only
gets $979.02. Do you have any reason for that?

A. In the judgment of the employing officer, Miss Chris
tina Wooley was believed to be worth more.

Q. And you are the recommending officer?
[fol. 518] A. I am there now.

Q. So in your judgment, you consider that to be a fact?
A. In this case, yes.

297

Q. Is it fair to compare a science teacher with other
science teachers? Isn’t that better than comparing a teach
er of one subject with a teacher of any other subject, in
your mind?

A. I think it would be very comparable.
Q. Is it not true that you have J. L. Wilson, a teacher

in the Dunbar High School, a Negro teacher with an M.
A. Degree? A. Yes, I know Mr. Wilson.

Q. A total of eighteen years’ experience, nine in Little
Rock and nine outside, and a salary of $1,039.50.

A. Right.
Q. All right, let’s compare him with a junior high

school teacher, Miss Julia Mae Avery, must be the East
Side. Do you have Miss Avery there?

A. Yes, I recall Miss Avery.
Q. A B. S. Degree? A. Yes.
Q. That is less than Mr. Wilson’s Degree?
A. That is right.
Q. Incidentally, his degree is from an accredited

school? A. I think so.
Q. So that Mr. Wilson has more training, more educa-

[fol. 519] tional background than—
A Yes.
Q. Than Miss Avery? A. Yes, he has.
Q. And he has nine years more experience in Little

Rock as a. teacher? A. That is right.
Q. And eight years more experience outside of Little

Rock? A. That is right.
Q. And Miss Avery gets only $139.00 less than he does ?
A. She is getting a great deal more than he is now.

She left to go to the library.
Q. She left to go to the library, but while she was here,

you remember her, and paid her $900.00?
A. I think her ability to command that salary would

be an indication of her ability with us.
Q. Now, Miss Eleanor Cook. Is she still with us?
A. No.
Q. She is gone, too? A. Yes.
Q. And everything else being equal, about how many

hundred dollars would you consider five years’ experience?
A. I wouldn’t place any value on it.
Q. You would not?

298

A. No, I would have to know more about the circum
stances.
[fol. 520] Q. Do you think everything being equal, it
would he worth three hundred dollars?

A. No, I wouldn’t place a value on it.
Q. All right, we will complete the comparison of J. L.

Wilson with Mr. Everette C. Barnes. Mr. Barnes with an
A. B. Degree, a white teacher, and Mr. Wilson has an
M. A., so Mr. Wilson has more educational qualifications
than Mr. Everette. Is that correct? A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Wilson has nine years’ experience in Little
Rock, and Mr. Barnes has fourteen, which gives Mr. Barnes
five more years in Little Rock, but Mr. Wilson has nine
years outside of Little Rock and Mr. Barnes only has two
years outside of Little Rock. Mr. Wilson has eighteen
years, and Mr. Barnes has sixteen. Is that correct?

A. If the record shows, yes.
Q. Mr. Barnes gets, Mr. Barnes, a white teacher, gets

$1372.70, and Mr. Wilson, a colored teacher, gets $1039.50.
Is it not true that both of them run the science depart
ments for their respective schools?

A. Practically so.
Q. Practically so? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how can you explain the difference between

them, $700.00 difference?
[fol. 521] A. Mr. Barnes has many activities that make
him valuable, at the present time he is advisor of the visual
educational activities for all the senior high schools.

Q. And he goes around from school to school?
A. No, in the high school.
Q. Oh, in the one high school?
A. And he has done a lot of work in visual education,

and he also has duties in connection with the athletic de
partment, and then he has the direction of the science de
partment.

Q. You think he is worth $700.00 more than Mr. Wil
son?

A. I think his activities show that he is.
Q. How about Miss Vera Lescher? She is in one of

the junior highs. A. She is in West Side.
Q. With only an A. B. Degree?
A. Yes, she is on leave of absence now.
Q. Well, as to 1941-42, you paid her $1148.00?

299

A. That is right.
Q. How would you account for the difference between

that and $1039.00 that Wilson gets!
A. She is a very good science teacher and has been

taken over by the Standard Oil Company for research work
in the research laboratory recently, which seems to justify
[fol. 522] the fact, from our opinion, that she was a good
teacher.

Q. You did not know when you fixed her salary she
was getting ready to go to the Standard Oil Company?

A. No, but I did know she was a good teacher.
Q. And you did know Wilson was a good teacher?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you still think he was a good teacher?
A. Yes.
Q. There has been quite a bit of comparison of ele

mentary teachers, although your statement was that there
were several Negro teachers getting the same salary, or
more salary, than white teachers on a comparable basis.

A. I have said that in the evidence because that is
true.

Q. Don’t you think on a comparable basis you consider
experience along with what they are teaching? What do
you consider to arrive at this comparable basis, what fac
tors?

A. All the factors you have had in about the teacher’s
experience and training, abilities, ability to teach, all the
things that make up that factor.

Q. All right, let’s take the teachers with less than ten
years’ experience. Let’s take, for example, Miss—first of
all, how many of the Negro elementary schools have you
visited for the purpose of observing the teachers?
[fol. 523] A. I do not know, I have not been in all of
them.

Q Have you been in the teachers’ rooms for the pur
pose of observing them for rating in the Bush School?

A. I do not recall.
Q. I notice when you were being questioned by Mr.

Nash there were several teachers from the Gibbs School,
I mean the Bush School.

A. I knew some of them because I have visited some
of them.

300

Q. Then you have visited some of the teachers in Bush
School? A. Yes, I have visited some.

Q. About how many? A. I do not know exactly.
Q. All right, Miss Hamilton here.
A. In which school?
Q. Gibbs. It is Elizabeth Hamilton. She is a Negro.

Is that correct?
A. Yes, she is in the Gibbs School.
Q. Has a B. S. E. Degree? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how much experience?
A. Six years in Little Rock, ten outside.
Q. And the grade she teaches? A. 5B and 4A.
Q. And her salary?

[fol. 524] A. $706.00.
Q. Now, right underneath I see Nancy Jackson. She is

right under Elizabeth Hamilton, the next name. Her de
gree? A. A. B.

Q. What is the experience in Little Rock?
A. Five years.
Q. Outside? A. None.
Q. What classes she teaches?
A. She teaches music in Gibbs.
Q. And her salary? A. $665.50.
Q. Now, Capitol Hill, Danice Lee, she is also a Negro

teacher? Correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And her degree? A. A. B.
Q. Experience? A. Six years.
Q. Outside experience? A. None.
Q. What grade does she teach? A. The Third B.
Q. And she gets? A. $665.50.
Q. All right. Sarah Rice, the same school.

[fol. 525] A. Sarah Rice?
Q. Yes. Go right on down.
A. A. B. Degree, seven years’ experience in Little Rock,

none elsewhere, teaches 5B, gets $645.24.
Q. Now, in comparing these teachers with comparable

white teachers, would it be fair to use the training, ex
perience and grades taught?

A. It would be fair to determine comparable bases, yes.
Q-. And now we come to the white schools. Under the

Pulaski Heights Grammar we have Miss Verna Finn.
A. Yes.
Q. Yes, will you carry it on across?

301

A. She has an A. B. Degree, five years’ experience in
Little Rock, three elsewhere, teaches 3A and 3B and 2A,
salary $933.00.

Q. Can yon account for the fact that salary is higher
than any of the four elementary teachers we mentioned
above? A. I cannot.

Q. You can give no reason for it? A. No.
Q. All right. Miss Ruth Jones, of Centennial. What

degree is L. I.f
A. It is the degree issued by a teachers’ college, issued

on school years of training.
Q. Is it less than an A. B.?
A. It is a two-year degree.

[fol. 526] Q. And an A. B. is four years? A. Yes.
Q. So she has half the experience that the four Negro

teachers mentioned before—I mean half of their training.
How many years has she been in Little Rock?

A. Who is it now?
Q. Ruth Jones.
A. All right, She has five years in Little Rock, five

years elsewhere, teaches 4B, that is her home room, and I
happen to know she handles the Art Department, $846.00.

Q. Can you explain the reason she gets more than the
four Negro teachers with A. B. Degrees with the same ex
perience ?

A. Now, in her case, she was a very good teacher.
Q. Was? A. She has gone.
Q. You were going to say something else?
A. She has gone.
Q. And Miss Thelma Clapp. That is correct?
A. She has an A. B. Degree, six years’ teaching in

Little Rock, four years’ experience elsewhere, teaches 6A,
$987.00.

Q. Can you explain why she gets more than the four
Negro teachers mentioned above?

A. She is better than they are.
Q. Better than all four? A. I think so.

[fol. 527] Q. $200.00 better?
A. I would hesitate to measure the value of it. She

is worth substantially more.
Q. How do you arrive at these figures? And isn’t it

true that you estimate them? A. That is right.
Q. How about Miss Lucile Holman at Parham?

302

A. Parham?
Q. Parham.
A. B. S. Degree, eight years ’ experience in Little Rock,

none in other schools, teaches Art, $1014.18.
Q. Could you compare her with a regular elementary

teacher or do you consider her in a higher bracket in that
she teaches art?

A. Perhaps slightly higher. In this particular case,
I transferred her to one of the junior high schools to
take charge of the Art Department.

Q. That would account for the salary? A. Yes.
Q. All right, Miss Verna Harper at Garland.
A. Verna Harper?
Q. V-e-r-n-a H-a-r-p-e-r.
A. B. S. E., five years’ experience in Little Ro'ck, ten

years elsewhere, teaches 5B and 4A, $1041.00.
Q. How' do you account for that salary being more

than these of the four Negro teachers in the same group?
[fol. 528] A. I have information to the effect that she
is a very good teacher, superior to these other teachers.

Q. Do you know what kind of teacher Miss Elizabeth
Hamilton is? A. Sir?

Q. Do you know* what kind of a teacher Miss Eliza
beth Hamilton, the Negro teacher, is?

A. I don’t have definite information.
Q. Do you know Miss Nancy Jackson?
A. I don’t have definite information.
Q. Do you have Miss Danice Lee?
A. Yes, I have information on Danice Lee.
Q. Where did you go to get it?
A. I received it from a conference with the sponsors.
Q. And you do have some information on her?
A. I have.
Q. How about Sarah Rice? You don’t have much in

formation, so you would not be in position, with exception
of Danice Lee? A. I do.

Q. You would not be in position to compare these
teachers with Miss Verna Harper, would you?

A. As good as anybody else.
Q. Now, Forest Park. Miss Edith Hardage.
A. A. B. Degree, seven years’ experience, one year

elsewhere, 1A and 2B, $960.00.
[fol. 529] Q. How do you account for that one?

303

A. I don’t know. She is gone now.
Q. But you do not know what made that figure of

$960.00, do you? A. No.
Q. Which is above the Negro level? A. That is right.
Q. Fair Park, and Miss Georgia Wage, an A. B. De

gree. Correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you give her other information?
A. Seven years’ experience in Little Rock, five else

where, 4A and 5B, $1041.00.
Q. She is a white teacher? A. Yes.
Q. How do you account for the fact that she gets

$400.00 more than any of the other, than any of the Negro
teachers ?

A. I do not know. I am not familiar with Mrs. Wage’s
work.

Q. Well, then there is no yardstick in your mind that
would account for that? A. I do not have any, no.

Q. Miss Jeanne Dupree, Oakhurst.
A. B. S. Degree, six years’ experience in Little Rock,

three elsewhere, teaches first grade, $960.00.
Q. How do you account for the fact she gets $200.00

more?
[fol. 530] A. AATithout knowing about the others, I do
not; I do know she is a very fine primary teacher.

Q. You consider her in the upper brackets?
A. I consider her in the highest group of the teachers

we have.
Q. How is it she gets less than Miss Georgia AVage?
A. AA7here is Georgia AVage?
Q. Just above in the Fair Park.
A. That is something T cannot explain.
Q. Nowq going to the (stops) There was quite a Com

parison made between teachers that had been in the system
for quite some number of years. Did it not appear to
you in checking them that the figures tended to go accord
ing to the number of years they had been teaching?

A. I think there was some relation, but I don’t know
that they would be definite enough to ascribe a mathe
matical value to them.

Q. AAThen you get down to these figures and compare
them, the more experience the higher the salary?

A. There is a tendency that way.

304

Q. And isn’t that a normal tendency in school system,
the longer you teach the higher the salary?

A. Very, generally, yes.
Q. Let’s take the older teachers and compare them.

Miss Cordelia Davis, a Negro teacher. A. Gibbs?
Q. Gibbs. All right, she is a Negro teacher. Correct?

[fol. 531] A. That is l’ight.
Q. And she has an A. B. Degree? A. Correct.
Q. Twenty-six years’ experience in Little Bock?
A. That is right.
Q. Six outside of Little Bock? A. That is right.
Q. And her salary is? A. $884.71.
Q. So that in comparing teachers in the elementary

school level, wouldn’t it be fair to compare her with a
twenty-six-year old teacher and a twenty-nine-year teach
er, speaking of experience?

A. If you were developing comparisons on that basis,
it would.

Q. What other information can you use for comparison
other than that?

A. The information that you might have as to their
teaching ability.

Q. What information do you have as to her teaching
ability? A. You mean Cordelia Davis?

Q. Yes. A. I don’t have any.
Q. You have already testified as to Miss Emma Pat-

tillo, with twenty-seven years’ experience. That is the
same school, Gibbs, twenty-seven years’ experience. Do
[fol. 532] you know what kind of a teacher she is?

A. She is a very good teacher.
Q. She has twenty-seven years’ experience, all right,

and she gets $1012.00? A. And 77 .̂
Q. And 77 .̂ Now, yet’s compare her with some with

teachers who have had the same experience, for instance,
Miss Pauline Jordan, that is the Pulaski Heights Grammar
School, Pulaski Heights, Pauline Jordan, Pulaski Heights
Grammar. Now, will you compare Miss Emma Pattillo
and Miss Pauline Jordan first of all?

A. All right. Emma Pattillo, B. S. Degree, twenty-
seven years’ experience in Little Bock, no experience else
where, literature appreciation, $1012.77.

Q. All right, Miss Pauline Jordan.

305

A. Pauline Jordan, A. B. Degree, twenty-six years’
experience.

Q. Which is one year less than Miss Pattillo?
A. That is right. No experience elsewhere, 5A in liter

ature appreciation, also, that is her home room, $1429.72.
Q. How do you explain that?
A. I have no explanation to offer for that. They have

been here a long time, and I do not know the facts on
which the salaries were originally placed.

Q. All right. Miss Esther Autry. Will you compare
her with Miss Pattillo?
[fol. 533] A. Miss Autry, A. B. Degree, twenty-four
years’ experience, two outside of Little Rock, 2B and 1A,
$1391.98.

Q. Miss Autry is white and Miss Pattillo is colored?
A. That is true.
Q. They have the same degrees, A. B. and B. S.f
A. They are comparable if they are both from the same

type of institution.
Q. And so far as you know they are?
A. So far as I know. I have not checked it.
Q. And Miss Autry has twenty-four years and Miss

Pattillo has twenty-seven years’ experience in Little Rock?
A. That is right.
Q. And as to experience outside of Little Rock, Miss

Pattillo has zero and Miss Autry has two?
A. That is right.
Q. How do you account for the fact that Miss Pattillo

gets $1039.00 and Miss Autry $1391.00?
A. There could not be any explanation on my part.
Q. It Pould be on degree?
A. I wouldn’t know and would not say unless we knew.
Q. And it could not be from experience?
A. The experience is similar.
Q. It could be on race?
A. I don’t know whether it could have been or not.
Q. The fact one was white and one was colored, it

could have been taken into consideration, could have?
[fol. 534] A. I don’t know. I would not admit that. I
just simply do not know.

20—12,887

306

Q. Miss Mary Schriver, that is Lee School. AVill you
compare her with Miss Pattillo?

A. Mary Schriver has an A. B. Degree, twenty-one
years’ experience in Little Bock, three years elsewhere,
teaches 5-B, salary $1354.08.

Q. Miss Schriver is white and Miss Pattillo is a Negro?
A. That is right.
Q. Can you give any other reason for that difference in

that salary?
A. I can give no reason at all.
Q. Miss Grace Hagler, Forest Park. Will you compare

those two?
A. You mean with Miss Pattillo?
Q. With Miss Pattillo, please.
A. Miss Hagler, B. S. Degree, twenty-six years’ ex

perience in Little Bock, four elsewhere, teaching 1-A,
salary $1418.84.

Q. They have comparable degrees?
A. So far as I know from the record.
Q. All right. Is the experience, is it fairly comparable?
A. Very similar.
Q. Yet the salary is $400.00 different. Can you give any

explanation of that?
A. I have no explanation to offer.

[fol. 535] Q. Now get back to the question that you
testified to under examination by Mr. Nash. You cannot—
strike that question. Give us the name of any Negro
teacher who has got more salary than a white teacher with
comparable qualifications and years experience.

A. I feel like I can.
Q. You think you can work it out over night, Mr.

Scobee?
A. Bepeat the question again.
Q. A Negro teacher who is getting as much or more

than a white elementary school teacher with comparable
degree and years of experience.

A. On those two factors alone?
Q. Yes.
A. I don’t know, because other factors would enter into

the valuation of teachers.
Q. What I would like to get clear in the record is on

those two items can you name anyone, any Negro teacher

307

teaching comparable grade, elementary schools, that is
getting as much salary or more salary than a white ele
mentary school teacher with a comparable degree and
years of experience.

A. I could not do that offhand, I would have to consult
the records.

Q. And will you do that?
A. I will look for it.
Q. You compared Miss Vera Murphy, I think she is in

[fol. 536] Bush School, yes, Bush, with several teachers.
Miss Vera Murphy. Do you see her?

A. Yes, I have found her.
Q. Will you give her training?
A. She has two years’ college.
Q. Thirty-two years’ experience in Little Rock?
A. That is right.
Q. None elsewhere?
A. That is right.
Q. And she gets $1012.77? A. That is right.
Q. Let’s take Miss Fannie Cline, Pulaski Heights. Miss

Cline is white, is she not, and Miss Murphy colored?
A. Yes.
Q. Miss Murphy has two years’ training?
A. Yes.
Q. How many years does Miss Cline have?
A. Miss Cline has two years’ training.
Q. So that is comparable?
A. Apparently it is, if it is from institutions of equal

rating.
Q. Miss Murphy has thirty-two years’ experience?
A. Yes, and Miss Cline has thirty-three.
Q. Makes one year’s difference? A. Yes, sir.

[fol. 537] Q. And one year outside for Miss Cline would
make two years’ difference, if you wanted to figure it that
way? A. Yes.

Q. And Miss Murphy is a Negro teacher, gets $1012.77,
and Miss Cline, a white teacher, gets $1455.41.

A. Right.
Q. Can you account for that?
A. Not from memory here offhand.
Q. Don’t you think in comparing Miss Murphy with

other teachers you would compare her with those teaching
about as long as she did?

308

A. That is comparable.
Q. Well, for example, how about Miss Gertrude Pell?
A. It is Dill, D-i-1-1.
Q. Dill it should be, yes, sir, that is right, Gertrude Dill,

Pulaski Heights. Is it not true she has one year less train
ing than Vera Murphy?

A. That is right.
Q. About eight years’ less experience in Little Rock?
A. Twenty-four from thirty-two is eight, yes.
Q. And she has two years more experience outside

Little Rock than Miss Murphy? A. Yes.
Q. So that approximately, Miss Murphy has six years’

experience here, being the difference between twenty-six
and thirty-four, eight years difference.
[fol. 538] A. Twenty-six and thirty-two.

Q. That is right, that is right, six years’ difference.
Miss Murphy, a Negro teacher, gets $1012.77, and Miss
Dill, the white teacher, gets $1306.29.

A. That is right.
Q. Can you give any reason for that?
A. I don’t know any.
Q. Miss Maude Hariston, just below that, the same

school, Pulaski Heights. She has one more year’s training
than Miss Murphy? A. Yes.

Q. But she has ten years’ less experience than Miss
Murphy, that is, here in Little Rock? A. Yes, sir.

Q. She has three years more experience outside of
Little Rock? A. Yes, sir.

Q. What do you say as to them?
A. They are comparable on basis of tenure, but they

are teaching, one is teaching upper grades and one
primary.

Q. But which do you pay the lpore to?
A. We don’t make any distinction now.
Q. That could account, you think, for the difference?
A. It might.
Q. All right, let’s get to Miss Nell Jones, right in there,

the next name.
[fol. 539] A. All right.

Q. She had two years’ training, which is comparable—
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Twenty-three years’ experience in Little Rock?

309

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Which is nine years less than Miss Murphy?
A. Yes.
Q. She has two years’ experience outside?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Which is two years more than Miss Murphy?
A. Yes.
Q. So the difference between the two would be seven

years in favor of Miss Murphy, would it not?
A. That is right.
Q. Yet Miss Jones gets $1402.89 and Miss Murphy

gets $1012.77, Miss Murphy being a Negro teacher and Miss
Jones being a white teacher. Can you account for the
difference? A. I can’t account for that.

Q. What do you fix the elementary school teachers’
salaries on, what do you use as a yardstick?

A. I don’t have any.
Q. How do you arrive at the figure ?
A. What figure are you talking about?
Q. Whatever figure you are figuring for the individual

teacher, I mean what things do you consider?
A. Oh, the things we do for all teachers.

[fol. 540] Q. Is it harder to fix a salary for the ele
mentary teacher than for the high school teacher?

A. I do not think it is harder.
Q. As to those elementary teachers with good college

degrees, what do you use there?
A. We use the recommendations of the principals and

supervisors and sponsors and in so far as possible what
I can see about them.

Q. ̂ Now in comparing, for the purpose of comparing
salaiies, for the purpose of fixing the salary, if you are
going to fix a salary on two teachers, what would you have
to know about both of them?

A. I would like to know about both of them.
Q. Do you think if you have two people in your system

that you have confidence in, and one is talking about one
teacher and another is talking about another teacher,
could you decide between the two which of these teachers
is the best teacher?

A. No, no, it would be hard.
Q- M hereas, it is rather hard where the same person

is talking about the two.

310

A. It is a different proposition.
Q. It is a different proposition?
A. Yes, there is a unity of standard there you don’t have

in the other case.
[fol. 541] Q. Who supervises the white high school, the
senior high ?

A. You mean the senior high school?
Q. Yes.
A. Mr. Larson, the principal.
Q. Do you have any supervisor? A. No.
Q. Who supervises the white junior high?
A. We have none. Each individual principal.
Q. Who supervises the Dunbar?
A. Mr. Lewis and Mr. Hamilton jointly.
Q. Mr. Hamilton is only there part time?
A. Usually half a day.
Q. And the rest of the day he is principal of an

elementary school? A. Yes.
Q. So any information you get, you get it from one

person, the principal of the Little Rock High School?
A. That is right.
Q. And from Dunbar you get two? A. That is right.
Q. And you use the composite of the two?
A. You mean the two from Dunbar?
Q. That is right.
A. Generally, except that in our system I assume that

Mr. Hamilton takes precedent, I mean of the two, special
supervision, he is my point of contact with Dunbar, but
[fol. 542] however, Mr. Lewis can come any time h’e wants
to see me, and I frequently contact Mr. Lewis without Mr.
Hamilton.

Q. You consider Mr. Hamilton competent and qualified
to pass upon the high school teachers? A. Yes.

Q. Have you gone into his qualifications? A. Yes.
Q. What degree does he have ?
A. He has a B. S. E. from the University of Cincin

nati.
Q. But he does not have an M. A.?
A. I don’t think he does.
Q. And all around, you think he is competent and

qualified to supervise Mr. Lewis?
A. By long experience he has as an administrator.

311

Q. How long has he been principal of the elementary-
school? A. I don’t know.

Q. Isn’t it odd that a man with elementary, in the
elementary field would be supervising over a high school?

A. I think he has also been principal of one of the
secondary schools at one time.

Q. But he is not now?
A, He is not now, no.
Q. Isn’t it odd? A. I wouldn’t call it odd.
Q. Aren’t the methods of teaching different in the

high school and the elementary school?
[fol. 543] A. Somewhat different.

Q. And you very seldom mix the two?
A. I have to mix them all the time.
Q. For instance, you don’t have the supervisors of the

white elementary schools supervising the high school?
A. No, no.
Q. And, likewise, you don’t have Mr. Larson down

supervising the elementary school?
A. That is right.
Q. Because there is a difference in teaching of the two

divisions of types of schools? A. That is true.
Q. Now, let’s get to this supplementary money we have

both been talking about. Where did it come from?
A. As I understand it, the majority of it came from

increase of state revenue.
Q. I mean where did you get it from, the School Board

or who did it come from?
A. From the State Department of Education.
Q. From the State Department of Education?
A. Yes.
Q. And it is public money? A. Yes.
Q. And in distributing the public money, didn’t you

feel obligated under the same rules as the other money
you distributed for the School Board?

A. In so far as it was public money, yes.
[fol. 544] Why, you don’t think you could distribute it
any way you pleased, did you?

A. No, but the Attorney General of Arkansas ruled it
was within the discretion of the Local Board to distribute
it.

312

Q. Did you think you could distribute it on the basis
of so much to the teachers in one school and so much to
the teachers in another school, on that basis?

A. Well, according to the ruling, if I remember it right,
said so, I believe we could.

Q. As to the rate, we are not concerned about that.
Do you think you could distribute more to white persons
than to Negro persons?

A. I think, legally speaking, under the terms of his
opinion it would have been possible.

Q. Then you think the Fourteenth Amendment don’t
touch you?

A. I didn’t go into the Fourteenth Amendment.
Q. By what reason do you try to keep these schools

equal around Little Rock?
A. As a matter of right and justice.
Q. And you don’t think as a matter of right and justice

you would have been obligated not to use race in distribut
ing that money? A. Repeat that question.

Q. I say, and you don’t think as a matter of right and
justice you would have been obligated not to use race in
[fob 545] distributing that money?

A. I don’t think that we used race definitely for that
purpose.

Q. But didn’t we agree yesterday that if a white and
a Negro teacher both had the same number of units, the
white teacher would get twice as much as the Negro teach
er? A. In the same bracket.

Q. And the only thing that kept the Negro teacher from
getting three dollars was the fact he was .a. Negro?

A. In the same bracket?
Q. Yes. A. That is true.
Q. So that being a Negro did settle it?
A. I don’t know whether it did or not.
Q. All right, you worked out the distribution of this on

that basis, by units.
A. Yes, but I didn’t do it.
Q. It was under your supervision?
A. Yes, I know how it was done.
Q. Training did decide on that, how many units they

were to get? A. Yes.
Q. And on that list Miss Susie Morris? A. Yes.

313

Q. I believe we figured out yesterday she had twelve
units ?
[fol. 546] A. I think so.

Q. What was there that kept her from getting three
times twelve, or thirty-six dollars!

A. I am not sure I could say.
Q. It was under your supervision? A. Yes.
Q. You know how it was distributed?
A. Very generally.
Q. Don’t you know the only thing that kept her from

getting three dollars instead of a dollar and a half was
the fact she was colored ? A. I am not sure it was.

Q. Was there anything else considered?
A. I do not see anything else.
Q. Can you imagine anything else?
A. I don’t think so.
Q. Now, Mr. Scobee, as a matter of fact, it was dis

tributed on the basis of race.
A. I cannot speak for the committee.
Q. But you did the distributing pursuant to the orders

of the Board, didn’t you? A. Yes.
Q. And didn’t you distribute it on the basis of race?
A. I distributed on the basis the report of the commit

tee figured out on the individual teachers and presented
them on the basis these checks were written.
[fol. 547] Q. All right. Pursuant to your principalship
in the distribution of the money, you have two teachers
with twelve units apiece. Now, how much are they entitled
to get, the teacher “ A ” and teacher “ B ” , and they both
have twelve units. How much does teacher “ A ” get?

A. Either eighteen dollars or thirty-six dollars.
Q. And what determines which he gets ?
A. I don’t know. I can’t speak for the committee.
Q. I am not speaking of the committee, I am speaking

about the distribution of the money under your instruc
tions. That’s what I am talking about. And is your answer
still the same? You don’t know what determined it?

A. Will you repeat the question again?
Q. We have two teachers with twelve units apiece,

teacher “ A ” and teacher “ B ” , and what determines
whether teacher “ A ” gets eighteen dollars or thirty-six
dollars ?

314

A. Whether they were figured on a dollar and a half or
three dollars per unit.

Q. And how do you find out whether they get a dollar
and a half or three dollars per unit! How do you find it
out? A. How do you find it out?

Q. How would you go about it?
A. I would consult the report of the committee.
Q. And how would you find from the report of the com

mittee ?
[fol. 548] A. Well, some are given a dollar and a half
and some three dollars.

Q. Which one was given a dollar and a half ?
A. Which one ?
Q. Say one of the teachers come up. How would you

decide whether they got three dollars or a dollar and a
half? A. The committee would decide.

Q. We are getting at the point where he distributed
the money now. You will have a list which shows how
many units each teacher has, and what determines wheth
er each one of those teachers get a dollar and a half or
three dollars? A. I have already told you.

Q. I have asked you what determines it.
A. Repeat the question, please.
Q. What determines as to which one of these teachers

gets three dollars or a dollar and a half per unit in your
office?

A. According to the report of committee whether they
were white or colored teachers.

Q. That’s all I wanted to know. Now, Mr. Scobee, I
am wondering as to whether it will be possible tonight to
have you check these sheets here? Can you do that over
night? A. From what?
[fol. 549] Q. From your sheets.

A. From this year—I don’t know what you have on it.
Mr. Loughborough: What was it you were asking him to

do ? It might take all night.
Mr. Marshall: That’s what I thought.
A. That would be rather a large job with four hundred

teachers.
Mr. Marshall: We will have to go over them one by one.
Mr. Loughborough: Well, he can’t work all night.

315

Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, could we have an
adjournment of ten minutes? It would save us time in the
end if we can get these schools straight.

The Court: Well, we will adjourn here until nine o ’clock
tomorrow morning.

Whereupon the Court announced an adjournment until
9 :30 A. M., October the 1st, 1942.

Whereupon the counsel for the parties dictated to the
reporter the following stipulation:
Mr. Nash:

It is agreed by counsel for the respective parties that
[fol. 550] Mr. Scobee, in his examination by Mr. Marshall
—change that and let it be that Mr. Scobee prior to this
point—

Mr. Marshall: No, no, I am not able to stipulate on that
because I will knock my other point there.

Mr. Nash: It is submitted by counsel for the respective
parties in his—in his comparison of these teachers named
by Mr. Marshall gave his answer without reference to the
rating column of Defendants’ Exhibit No. 1. Isn’t that
right? Is that satisfactory?

Mr. Marshall: Sure, sure, and his answer would have
been entirely different.

October 1, 1942, at 9:30 A. M., the Court re-convened
pursuant to order for recess and proceeded as follows:

R. T. Scobee, recalled for continued
Redirect Examination.

By Mr. Marshall:
Q. Mr. Scobee, on examination by Mr. Nash, I think

you testified you had never seen this exhibit which is
marked Plaintiff’s Exhibit 4.

A. Until I came to Court.
[fol. 551] Q. Until you came to the trial? A. Yes.

Q. I call your attention and ask you whether or not
it says “ a minimum entrance salary shall be $615.00 per
teacher having an A. B. Degree” .

316

A. That document says that, “ The minimum entrance
salary is now established at $615.00.”

Q. And isn’t it a fact Negro teachers you have hired
for the elementary schools have all been hired at the figure
of $615.00 A. Practically all.

Q. Practically all? A. Yes.
Q. And you remember yesterday the minutes of the

School Board of 1937, the statement that the minimum sal
ary shall he $810.00. Do you remember reading that yes
terday ?

A. I remember reading from the minutes. I am not
able to identify the exact date.

Q. And is it not true that since you have been here
that all white teachers who are new to the system in the
elementary schools have been paid not less than $810.00?

A. That’s true.
Q. Do these application blanks which you used yester

day, of the teachers new to the system, contain the whole
amount of material, total written material on these candi-
[fol. 552] dates, or do you have some other material on
these candidates in writing?

A. I think all that our files have are there in those.
Our general policy is not to retain these very long except
the application blank.

Q. But as to those new ones, that is as complete as you
have in the files? A. Yes, it is all we have.

Q. And the only thing else you would have to go on
besides that would be what? A. To go on?

Q. What other information would you have besides
what is on these application blanks?

A. Well, there would be the information that we de
veloped at the time the candidate was being considered
for the position. There would be letters and interviews,
verbal conversations and telephone calls.

Q. Wouldn’t that more or less be what you would
classify as the intangibles? A. I think so.

Q. Now, going over that lengthy list of teachers that
you testified about yesterday that you have appointed
since you have been in the system. Is it true that none of
the Negroes that you have appointed have had, in your
mind, the teaching caliber the white teachers you have
[fol. 553] appointed had?

A. I would think I would say “ yes” to that.

317

Q. I noticed, is it not true that you did not send for
the recommendations or for information from the schools
for all of the teachers that you hired?

A. In some cases I did not.
Q. Was there any reason for it? A. No.
Q. So it is not the custom to send for all of them, is

there? A. No.
Q. Then some of them you did?
A. Where we felt like we could have a supplement to

the information.
Q. Would it not be true that two teachers applying,

both with A. B. Degrees, and you sent for the recom
mendations from their teachers, and you got the recom
mendations of one and they are very high, and you do
not get any recommendation Concerning the other—you do
not send in concerning the other one, and you do not get
any concerning the other one. Would it not be true that
the teacher or rather the applicant whose recommendation
you have sought and obtained would appear to you to be
the better teacher? A. I expect that would be true.

Q. So if you did not send for the recommendation of a
[fol. 554] particular teacher, it would be hard for you
to find out what they did in school?

A. The information on that would be incomplete.
Q. Would be incomplete? A. Yes.
Q. I think it is true that you appointed Miss Nancy

Jane Isgrig? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I show you her application blank and ask you if

you are familiar with it.
A. Yes, I can identify this as her application blank.
Q. Is that all you have in here, the written data con

cerning here? A. No.
Q. What other Avritten data did you have?
A. I had some other information. I recall distinctly

in her case conversation with one of the professors at
Hendrix.

Q. Did you call the professor? A. Yes.
Q. And you asked him about her? A. Yes.
Q. And A\diat did he say about her?
A. He gave me a very high recommendation as to her.
Q. And that was taken in consideration in fixing her

salary ?
[fol. 555] A. Yes.

318

Q. I show you the application blank of Miss Eunice
Brumfield and ask you if that is all the information you
had on her at the time you appointed her.

A. I do not guess it was. The appointment was made
after a personal interview.

Q. Did you Call any of her professors!
A. I think not.
Q. Did you write any of her professors!
A. I do not recall.
Q. And you fixed her salary on that information there?
A. And the results of the interview.
Q. And the result of the interview? A. Yes.
Q. Now, going back to Miss Nancy Isgrig. First of

all, what is the salary you offered Miss (stops) Miss Is
grig? A. She was paid $810.00.

Q. $810.00 for the teaching in what school?
A. Fair Park.
Q. That is an elementary school? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Miss Isgrig is white? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what salary did you offer Miss Brumfield?
A. $630.00.

[fol. 556] Q.. For teaching in what school? A. Dunbar.
Q. Is it not true that they are not the same type of

schools, one is an elementary and one is a high school?
A. That is true.
Q. And is it not the custom, everything else being

equal, to pay higher salaries for high school teachers?
A. The custom is general in that direction.
Q. It is general here in Little Rock?
A. I think the figures will show that.
Q. Can you explain why you offered Miss Isgrig more

than you offered Miss Brumfield?
A. The only thing I can give, I thought she was worth

more.
Q. Was that based on telephone Conversations with

the professor?
A. It was based on the information I had, and that was

part of it.
Q. I notice, is it not true that Miss Isgrig’s qualifica

tions, so far as her application is concerned, is two years
at junior college and two years at Hendrix, and she gradu
ated with a B. A. Degree? A. That is true.

319

Q. And according to Miss Brumfield’s application, her
qualifications were what?

A. An A. B. Degree from Talladega.
[fol. 556 y z ] Q- Is that an accredited school?

A. Yes, to my knowledge.
Q. And it is similar to Hendrix?
A. In the accrediting agents, I think so.
Q. And is it not also true that Miss Brumfield had done

twenty-seven hours in graduate work in mathematics in
Fisk University? _ A. The application so shows.

Q. And Fisk is also an accredited school?
A. I am not sure, I think so. I can determine by look

ing at the record.
Q. It is in Nashville?
A. All right, let’s see. (Takes the book) Yes, it is ac

credited by the Association of American Universities.
Q. So that Fisk is on a comparable basis with the

school that Miss Isgrig took her undergraduate work?
A. I think so.
Q. So is it not true that on the basis of training and

professional qualifications, Miss Brumfield’s professional
qualifications exceed Miss Isgrig’s.

A. As far as the school records are concerned, they do.
Q. And you made no effort to get any additional in

formation from the school on Miss Brumfield?
A. I am not sure about that, I don’t recall any.
Q. And it doesn’t appear here?

[fol. 557] A. Yes, but there is lots that does not appear
there.

Q. I thought you said a minute ago that all you had
is here.

A. I said before that we have much that is treated
as confidential that is not kept as a record.

Mr. Marshall: Gould we have these two introduced in
evidence? Any objection?

Mr. Loughborough: No.
The Court: All right.

Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 6.
The application of Miss Nancy Jane Isgrig introduced in

evidence as Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 6.
(Shown following the Testimony in this printed record.)

320

[fol. 558] Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 7.
The application of Miss Eunice Brumfield introduced in

evidence as Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 7.
(Shown following the Testimony in this printed record.)

[fol. 559] By Mr. Marshall:
Q. Mr. Scobee, you are just as interested in the getting

of the best teachers for Dunbar as you are for getting
the best teachers in the other high school, aren’t you?

A. I think I am.
Q. I show you the application of Miss Betty Obenshain.

Do you remember appointing her, or rather recommending
her appointment? A. Yes.

Q. And at what salary was she recommended at that
time? A. $810.00.

Q. And for what reason did you offer her more than
you offered Miss Brumfield?

A. I thought she was worth more.
Q. And what did you use as a basis for arriving at

that conclusion?
A. All the information I had at the time the appoint

ment was made.
Q. Do you have some of that information attached

here? A. Perhaps there is some here.
Q. Is it not true that in that application are several

in there that were sent by your office to the people?
A. Not by me. I have not used these forms since my

administration, that is 1940. This application had been
pending a year before my tenure.
[fol. 560] Q. Well, did you have, to this extent, recom
mendation blanks?

A. I don’t recall that I did.
Q. Well, was there anything else in this folder that

caused you, that would give you reason to give her more
than Miss Brumfield? A. I don’t see anything.

Q. Miss Brumfield has more or less professional train
ing than Miss Obershain?

A. She has more training.
Q. Then the only item that could be used—am I correct

in saying that the only item that you used to give Miss
Obenshain more than you gave Miss Brumfield was the
personal interview with her?

321

A. That was a large part of it, yes.
Q. What else ?
A. What other information I had at hand.
Q. And you don’t know what it is, do you?
A. Not at the present time.
Q. Did yon try to find out from her teachers what kind

of teacher she was?
A. I don’t recall. I do in many cases.
Q. So you cannot testify definitely as to what, in your

mind, would make you think she is a better teacher?
A. Not now. The appointment was over a year ago.

[fol. 561] Q. What about Miss Stella Grogan? Was
she one before or after your time?

A. She was appointed during my administration.
Q. By you? A. Yes.
Q. I show you her application blank and ask you if

there is anything included in there which would justify
you giving her more than Miss Brumfield.

A. Nothing in the blank except, perhaps, longer experi
ence.

Q. What salary did you offer her? A. $810.00.
Q. And Miss Grogan is white? A. Yes.
Q. You are not sure as to why you offered her $810.00?
A. Not at the present time.
Q. I think we have discussed Miss Britt (stops). I show

you the application blank of Miss Dixie Jane Wyatt. She
has been employed since your time? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And her qualifications?
A. A Bachelor of Science Degree Home Economics,

University of Arkansas.
Q. All right. Do you remember discussing on yester

day Miss Bernice Bass, home economics teacher at Dun
bar? A. Yes.
[fol. 562] Q. With several years’ experience?

A. Yes.
Q. Can you—how much salary did you give this appli

cant, Miss Wyatt?
A. She is now recorded here as Dixie Dean Spears, be

cause she is married—$900.00.
Q. And she has practically no experience. Is that right?
A. One semester.

21—12,887

322

Q. One semester? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why did you consider her worth more than Miss

Bass, who has five years’ experience in Little Rock and
one year’s experience outside Little Rock?

A. The question, please.
Q. Why is it that you pay Miss Wyatt more than you

pay Miss Bass? Miss Wyatt with one semester’s experi
ence outside of Little Rock and Miss Bass, a teacher in
the Little Rock Public School System for five years and
experience of one year outside?

A. I thought she was worth more.
Q. And what did you use as a basis, in your mind, for

arriving at that conclusion?
A. All the facts that I had at the time the appointment

was made.
Q. And what facts were they?

[fol. 563] A. Perhaps I should have said information,
the result of my interview and the information that I had
from the placement bureau or college, and my estimate of
her worth.

Q. Is it not true that Miss Bass is a very good home
economics teacher, in your estimation?

A. We think she is a good teacher.
Q. And everything else equal, you would think that

of two good teachers being considered the one with the
more experience would be the preferable one?

A. If everything else was equal?
Q. If everything else was equal.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, as far as you could decide as to Miss Wyatt,

is it not true that you were gambling?
A. We always gamble on new teachers.
Q. But at that stage, you were not gambling on Miss

Bass? A. Not specifically, no.
Q. You knew she Avas a good teacher, so you were wil

ling to gamble on a teacher and pay her a hundred and
some dollars more than you were paying a teacher you
knew about?

A. That is one of the risks of my job.
Q. You were likewise Avilling to take information that

you received from other people over and above your own
personal knowledge of the kind of teacher Miss Bass Avas?

323

[fol. 564] A. The majority of the information I received
about Miss Bass was from other people.

Q. But they were people in your school system you had
faith and confidence in? A. That is correct.

Q. You are still willing to pay this new teacher and
gamble on her and pay her more? A. Yes.

Q. And you were likewise willing to gamble on Miss
Britt?

A. Yes, and making a bad mistake, I was.
Q. How about Mr. Otis Thackery Harris? Do you re

member him? At Dunbar. He has now gone to the Army.
A. I think I recall him.
Q. I show you his application blank.
A. He doesn’t appear here on the sheet.
Q. I show you his application blank. You remember

that he was appointed? Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. And he has a degree from Hampton Institute,

Hampton, Virginia. A. Yes.
Q. That is accredited as a teachers’ college?
A. I think it is.
Q. Do you also have in his file there a long letter from

the placement bureau of Hampton about his qualifications ?
A. There is one here.

[fol. 565] Q. How much did you offer Mr. Harris?
A. I do not recall, and I don’t think the record shows.
Q. I show you your memorandum here. A. $630.00.
Q. $630.00 as a teacher in Dunbar High School. Is that

correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So, in that case you had something in addition to

his application blank? A. Yes.
Q. Which I think you testified before that you gave

credit to that in your mind?
A. Some credit, yes, that is one of the factors.
Q. How is it Mr.' Harris didn’t succeed in getting above

$630.00 level?
A. Because as a result of the interview I did not think

he was worth more than that.
Q. The interview determined what salary they were

going to get? A. Part of it, yes.
Q. A large or small part?
A. I would say a large part.
Q. A large part? A. Yes, sir.

324

Q. How much can you find out about the teacher’s
[fol. 566] ability from an interview outside of your esti
mate of their character and personality?

A. Not very much.
Q. That is about all. is it not?
A. You can ask your professional questions and it will

give you inside knowledge what they know .about the gen
eral picture of education.

Q. And you can get a fairly good idea?
A. Get a picture, yes.
Q. And then you gamble in your opinion on that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it not true that you are not willing to gamble

over $630.00 on a Negro teacher?
A. I don’t think so.
Q. You have not been so far? A. I have not.
Q. And you haven’t, to use your Avords, you have not

taken a gamble on any white teacher under $810.00 since
you have been here?

A. I think the record sIioavs so.
Q. Mr. Harris left the system?
A. He Avas here a short tim e and w ent to m ilita ry serv

ice.
Q. He Avent to military service? A. Yes.
Q. Let me ask you one other thing. From your con-

[fol. 567] versation Avitlr this professor, I think it Avas Miss
Isgrig, was his recommendation better than this one Mr.
Harris had from Hampton?

A. I don’t recall. I just believed it was of a higher
order.

Q. Although you thought his of a higher order?
A. Yes, a good recommendation.
Q. A good recommendation? A. Yes, sir.
Q. But you gave more credit to Miss Isgrig’s recom

mendation than you did to Mr. Harris’ ?
A. I don’t think I did.
Q. Didn’t you pay Miss Isgrig more than you paid Mr.

Harris? A. Oh, yes.
Q. And they had comparable professional qualifica

tions? A. Yes.
Q. Neither one of them ever, neither have any experi

ence? A. I think that is right.

325

Q. So then when you left experience and qualification,
the next subject is the recommendation from their indi
vidual schools, and they are about the same in your mind?

A. I think so.
Q. So, now, where did we get into the difference in

the salary bracket? A. My judgment.
[fol. 568] Q. It is your judgment now?

A. My evaluation of them.
Q. I show you the application of Miss Rhoda Wharry,

appointed by you, and ask you what on that application
blank justifies you in paying her more than either Miss
Brumfield or Mr. Harris.

A. I doubt if there is anything in the blank.
Q. Now, what did you use to pay her more?
A. My professional evaluation of her.
Q. And in your mind, you considered—did it come from

the personal interview? A. Most of it.
Q. I show you the application of Miss Elizabeth Axley.

She is here, is she not? A. Yes.
Q. Her professional qualifications?
A. A. B. Degree from the University of Arkansas.
Q. Which is comparable to Mr. Harris.
A I think the schools are of the same rank, and they

are accredited.
Q. And less than Miss Brumfield?
A. Yes, Miss Brumfield, as I recall, had some graduate

work.
Q. So at that stage she is equal to Mr. Harris and a

little bit behind Miss Brumfield? A. I think some.
[fol. 569] Q. As to experience, she had none?

A. Yes, she had taught in the West Side Junior High
School four years and had left in 1930.

Q. Thirty-one months ?
A. Three years, thirty-one months, that is right, I

didn’t state the months.
Q. Three years plus. A. Right.
Q. And she had not been teaching since 1930, had been

out of the teaching profession?
A. She had been a part of that time a school clerk.
Q. She had been out of the teaching? A. Sure.
Q. Is that why you paid her more?
A. It might be one reason, yes.
Q. Could there be any other reason?

326

A. The reason was I thought she was worth what we
gave her.

Q. And what did you use as a basis for determining
that?

A. I observed her work as a clerk and had numerous
interviews.

Q. A good clerk doesn’t make a good teacher?
A. Not necessarily.
Q. So it comes from the interview? A. That is right.
Q. Most of it?

[fol.570] A. Yes.
Q. Now, I show you what appears to be the applica

tion blank of Tessie Lewis. Was she appointed since you
have been here? A. I believe so.

Q. At Dunbar? A. Yes.
Q. And was she appointed to the high school?
A. Yes.
Q. Miss Lewis is a Negro? A. Yes.
Q. And her salary? A. $630.00.
Q. Now, from her application blank, will you give her

professional qualifications?
A. She has a Bachelor’s credit from Dillard Univer

sity.
Q. That is an accredited university?
A. I think so, but I wouldn’t say for sure.
Q. Do you want to check it? I am not sure. It is in

New Orleans, or just on the outside of New Orleans.
(Hands witness book)
A. It is accredited by the Southern Association.
Q. Which is comparable to the rating agencies that

rate the Arkansas schools?
A. Yes, sir, it is comparable to the North Central As

sociation.
[fol. 571] Q. So it is comparable to these other schools?

A. Yes.
Q. And she has qualifications similar to this white

teacher?
A. The professional qualification is similar.
Q. And experience?
A. It records one year in Homer, Louisiana.
Q. When she shows it in the record, you mean that

you take that for granted?

327

A. I assume they are telling the truth.
Q. That is right, but you try to find out what you can

of the standing she had at Dillard?
A. I don’t recall whether I had that information or

not.
Q. So you don’t know? A. No.
Q. Can you give any reason why she falls in the $030.00

bracket or level?
A. None other than in my judgment that is what she

was worth.
Q. If you had before you a recommendation from the

gentleman he considered her—the head of the practice
school from Dillard saying she was the best teacher to
ever go through Dillard, would that have changed your
recommendation of her? A. It might have.

Q. And isn’t that what you would have gotten if you
had asked for it?
[fol. 572] A. I do not recall that I did.

Q. Can you tell me why you wrote to get the recom
mendation, the reputation and so forth as to white teach
ers and did not as to colored teachers?

A. That is not true as between the two groups.
Q. Well, so far as I have asked, that has been true.
A. I think, perhaps, that is.
Q. Why? A. I don’t know.
Q. For instance, why weren’t you interested in what

kind of a teacher you have right here from Dillard. You
can’t tell it from an A. B. Degree.

A. I have every reason to believe that an A. B. Degree
awarded from Dillard would be a good degree.

Q. What about the degree of Miss Isgrig? That would
be true, too? A. Yes.

Q. Well, why did you ask about Miss Isgrig?
A. Because I did not think my information was com

plete enough.
Q. But comparably so, you had the same information

on the two teachers?
A. I don’t recall about the additional information I

had on Miss Lewis.
Q. You had from them an A. B. Degree, from both of

them ?
[fol. 573] A. I know I had that much.

Q. You had that much? A. Yes.

328

Q. But as to Miss Isgrig, you went and got some more,
and as to Miss Lewis you didn’t go and get any more?

A. I don’t know whether I did or not.
Q. Wouldn’t it show it in here?
A. It might or might not.
Q. If you were getting the information, you would not

have telephoned Dillard? A. No.
Q. You would have sent a wire or letter? A. Yes.
Q. And according to your routine in your office, it

would have appeared in this application blank?
A. The Chances are it would.
Q. But it does not appear? A. It does not appear.
Q. And isn’t the conclusion you draw from that, that

you did not get any further information on it?
A. I am not sure. There is some further information

on here. If she taught a year, under our rules and regu
lations the transcript would he filed.

Q. Well, was the transcript filed before she was ap
pointed? A. I do not know.

Q. It is not there?
[fol. 574] A. The transcript might have been there and
might not. If it was there, it was taken out and put in
the regular files for our information as required by the
rules of the Board.

Q. But so far as all these teachers we have examined,
you are not able to say anything that makes this differ
ence except what is entirely in your mind and your judg
ment? A. My judgment is the controlling factor.

Q. Do you make a distinction in the commercial sub
jects as to salary?

A. We make no definite distinction.
Q. All right. You appointed Miss Marguerite Pope,

did you not? A. Yes.
Q. I show you her application blank and ask you first

of all about her professional qualifications.
A. She has a B. S. Degree in Business Administration

from the University of Arkansas.
Q. Is a B. S. comparable to an A. B.?
A. Yes.
Q. And her experience?
A. One semester, I believe she records five months.
Q. Five months? A. Yes.
Q. She is a Avhite teacher? A. She is.

329

[fol. 575] Q. And how much salary does she say she
will accept per month?

A. She says she will accept $85.00 per month.
Q. And you appointed her, did you not? A. Yes.
Q. And what salary did you pay her? A. $900.00.
Q. That is more than $85.00 a month, is it not?
A. That is right.
Q. First of all, I ask you why you paid her more than

she was willing to go to work for.
A. I thought she was worth it. We have many appli

cants that offer to take much less than we pay them.
Q. So that doesn’t enter into your mind at all?
A. Not very much.
Q. What does she have that makes her worth so much

to the School System, more than any one of the new Negro
teachers that you appointed and several that are already
in the system? What do you have in your mind that makes
you reach the Conclusion that she is worth more?

A. I thought she was worth more. That is my judg
ment, that she was worth more when I put all of the things
I knew about her together.

Q. Do you remember anything specifically you knew
about her?

A. Well, I recall her application shows she was a cum
laude graduate. That would affect my judgment some,
[fol. 576] Q. Some of these others that you appointed in
white schools were not cum laude, but they got the same
money she did?

A. As a result of the interview, she demonstrated to
me that I could risk the judgment of that much on her.

Q. And as a matter of fact, it so happens that intangi
ble idea in your mind, namely, your judgment, detei'mines
this to a great extent?

A. That is right. One thing I have had—
Q. One second. How did it happen that your judg

ment always runs along in certain figures, namely, $615.00,
$630.00 for Negroes, and $810.00 and $900.00 for white
teachers, how does it run there all of the time?

A. I cannot answer.
Q. You are sure race does not enter into it?
A. I feel sure.
Q. Feel sure? Could it be? A. I don’t think so.
Q. Can you deny that race enters into it at all?

330

A. I will deny it.
Q. Race does not enter into it at all?
A. Not in the formation of my judgment.
Q. But you do know which teachers are white and

which are colored when you are sizing them up?
A. Yes.
Q. You know it from the application blank?

[fol. 577] A. Yes.
Q. And you know it from the picture filed with the

application blank? A. Sometimes, yes.
Q. And you know it from the personal interview?
A. Yes.
Q. So it must he true as it shows on that?
A. Why, I know about it.
Q. How about Miss Martha Thomas? Do you remem

ber appointing her? A. Yes.
Q. Her qualifications?
A. She is a Bachelor of Science of Education from the

Arkansas State Teachers’ College.
O. That is comparable to Miss Brumfield’s qualifica

tions?
A. Miss Brumfield was from which school?
Q. Talladega. A. Yes, sir.
Q. She has how much experience?
A. I think three years and a half.
Q. All right. And what salary wTas she paid?
A. $810.00.
Q. She is a white teacher? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why the difference between her salary and Miss

Brumfield?
[fol. 578] A. I thought at the time of the appointment
she was worth more.

Q. Did you have anything there that you can give us
that was in your mind that resulted in your judgment?

A. I don’t think the difference is in the application,
was significant.

Q. So it is in your mind, your judgment there is a
difference? A. Yes.

Q. How about Miss Mary Pence Parson, from the Uni
versity of Maryland? She has what qualifications?

A. A Bachelor’s Degree in physical education from
the University of Maryland.

331

Q. Which I admit is correct, from my home state. And
any experience?

A. She had three years in the Ft. Smith High School.
Q. How much salary was she willing to take?
A. $700.00.
Q. How much did you give her? A. $900.00.
Q. And that is how much more than she was willing

to work for? A. $200.00.
Q. And why? A. I thought she was worth it.
Q. Isn’t it true that Miss Parson here in her own

mind considered herself as just $70.00 a year better than
[fol. 579] Miss Brumfield, namely, Miss Brumfield gets
$630.00 and Miss Parson is willing to take $700.00?

A. Well, one would deduce that from the application.
Q. Why did you decide to give her the $200.00 more than

Miss Brumfield? A. She was worth more.
Q. What can you give us, tangible, to go on other than

what is in your mind?
A. I doubt if I could give you anything.
Q. How about David Garner Lloyd Foster? Do you

remember appointing him? A. Yes.
Q. Is he a Negro? A. Yes.
Q. What are his qualifications?
A. He has a Bachelor of Science Degree in industrial

arts education from Hampton Institute.
Q. Experience, if any?
A. One year in West Charlotte High School.
Q. And what salary did he say he would accept?
A. That is blank.
Q. And what salary did you pay him?
A. Possibly he was here just a short time, I don’t know

about it.
Q. Let me see if he is on here.
A. David Foster?

[fol. 580] Q. David, uh-huh.
A. At the rate of $765.00, and served only a few days,

as I recall.
Q. And you paid him higher than the usual salary for

Dunbar school teachers, did you not, for beginning teach
ers. A. That is right.

Q. Was that because of the subject he was teaching?
A. Partly on that.
Q. And what else?

332

A. And partly because I thought he was a good man.
Q. He is not teaching, he was not teaching the regular

subjects?
A. He was teaching industrial arts.
Q. Industrial arts? A. Yes.
Q. It is a general practice to make a difference in

these subjects.
A. There is frequently a difference made.
Q. Between them and the regular subjects?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. For the white or colored teacher?
A. No difference in them, the figures will show the

industrial teachers got more than the regular teachers.
Q. So that partly accounts for the fact he got more?
A. Yes.
Q. And he left?

[fob 581] A. He was here only a few days when he went
into the military service and was mustered out and then
drafted back.

Q. You would not compare these teachers that you
have appointed in vocations and printing and subjects like
that with regular class room teachers, would you?

A. No.
Q. And you say that you get a part of that money from

the federal government? A. That is right.
Q. And do you not get a part of the money you pay

the colored teachers from the federal government?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Under the Smith-Hughes and Lever Act?
A. That is right.
Q. So you cannot compare the vocational teacher

with the regular class room teacher.
A. Not definitely, they are in a higher specialized type

of work.
Q. And you more or less have to pay a difference to

them ?
A. They can demand higher salaries than the academic

teachers.
Q. So you can’t compare the vocation teacher and the

printing teacher with anybody in the Negro High School,
would you, they are not on a comparable level?

A. No, I don’t.

333

[fol. 582] Q. You don’t have any vocation in the Dunbar
High School? A. I don’t know.

Q. So you couldn’t compare vocation teachers?
A. No.
Q. And how about printing?
A. We have some printing done at Dunbar.
Q. Do you have a regular printing teacher?
A. I do not recall.
Q. So you could not, so far as you know, compare the

printing teacher at the high school with anybody at Dun
bar? A. I don’t believe I could.

Q. How about Miss Wanda Leatherman. Did you
appoint her?

A. She is new to the system, yes.
Q. Her qualifications?
A. She has a B. S. Degree with minor in primary edu

cation from the Texas State College for Women.
Q. Is that an accredited school? A. Yes.
Q. And her experience ?
A. Only the practice teaching in the college schools

amounting to about four months.
Q. Did you have any information from her college to

show what kind of practice teacher she made ?
A. I had at the time of my appointment.
Q. Is it not there? A. No.

[fol. 583] Q. Did you have a record of Miss Brumfield?
A. I don’t recall whether I did or not.
Q. You don’t remember hers?
A. I happen to in this case because that is just a recent

appointment.
Q. Did you write down to get hers ?
A. I think she presented it without writing.
Q. You don’t have there which way you got your in

formation on this? A. No, I don’t.
Q. On that basis, you decided she was worth what

salary? A. $810.00.
Q. And if I understand you correctly, a part of the

reason you paid her more than you paid Miss Brumfield
and the other Negro teachers new to the system is the
fact that you remember the statement from her practice
teacher ?

A. I had the information from the placement bureau,
also.

334

Q. Which does not appear in this application blank?
A. No.
Mr. Marshall: Any objection to this one?
Mr. Nash: No.

Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 8.
Admitted in evidence, of Mary Wanda Leatherman.
(Shown following the Testimony in this printed

record.)
[fol. 584] By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Miss Leatherman is white ? A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember Miss Nancy Dowell?
A. Yes, Nancy Dowell.
Q. I show you her application blank and ask you to,

first of all, I ask you is she a white teacher ? A. Yes.
Q. And her qualification?
A. She has an A. B. Degree from Hendrix College.
Q. Which is an accredited college? A. Yes.
Q. So her qualifications are a little less than Miss

Brumfield who has done graduate work?
A. I think so.
Q. And her experience is one semester? A. One.
Q. And that is in practice school?
A. Practice teaching, yes.
Q. What do you have there on this one—first, what

salary did you give her? It is in the Forest Park School.
A. I would have to get it from this record. (Looks for

it) $810.00.
Q. $810.00? Can you testify the reason that you gave

her more?
A. In my judgment of her.

[fol. 585] Q. Anything else?
A. I don’t know whether I had any other information

or not.
Q. May we have this for exhibit No. 9?

Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 9.
Being the application of Miss Nancy Dowell, admitted in

evidence.
(Shown following the Testimony in this printed

record.)

335

[fol. 586] By Mr. Marshall:
Q. I show you the application of Mrs. Chisholm and ask

you if she has been appointed since you have been Super
intendent.

A. She was transferred since I have been Superin
tendent.

Q. Transferred?
A. From one position to head of a department. This

blank is dated 1938.
Q. Yes.
A. And was on file. She was already in the system when

I came here, and I merely transferred her after'my arrival.
Q. So it would not be comparable to a new teacher?
A. I wouldn’t think so.
Q. I show you Mr. Brotherton. and first of all, I ask you

is he white? A. Yes, he is white.
Q. He has been appointed since you have been here?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And give his qualifications.
A. He has a B. S. Degree from Arkansas State Teach

ers’ College in education and from the George Peabody
School for Teachers.

Q. Is that an accredted school? Peabody?
A. Yes, I think so.
Q. Now, do you remember the teacher we discussed here

yesterday in Dunbar, Mr. Wilson?
[fol. 587] A. Yes.

Q. Is it not true he also has a Master’s Degree?
A. I think he has. He has.
Q. How much salary did you agree to pay Mr. Brother-

ton. I think it is on there. A. $1575.00.
Q. Well, now, can you explain, and first of all, I want to

ask you what you are paying Mr. Lewis, I mean Mr.
Wilson. A. $1039.00.

Q. And he has how much experience in the Little Rock
School System, A. Nine years.

Q. And how much experience outside of Little Rock?
A. Nine years.
Q. I think you testified yesterday he was a good teacher ?
A. Yes, a good teacher.
Q. Why did you pay Mr. Brotherton more than you

paid Mr. Wilson, Mr. Brotherton being new to the system

336

and Mr. Wilson being nine years with the system, and first
of all, the qualifications are the same? A. Yes.

Q. How about the experience?
A. I would have to check it. Mr. Brotherton had one

year as science teacher in the Branch High School, Branch,
Arkansas, one year as science teacher in the DeWitt High
School, DeWitt, Arkansas, three years as science teacher
[fol. 588] and principal of the Stuttgart High School,
Stuttgart, Arkansas, and twenty months as science teacher
and Superintendent of the Monette High School, Monette,
Arkansas.

Q. And what is the total number there?
A. Sixty-five months.
Q. Do you divide it by eight or nine ?
A. Nine.
Q. Nine? A. And you get some-odd.
Q. Six years? A. Seven years.
Q. Seven years?
A. Seven years, and a little bit over.
Q. Seven years and a little bit over, which is less than

Mr. Wilson had right here in Little Rock?
A. That is right.
Q. In evaluating experience, do you give more credit

for experience in Little Rock than outside?
A. Generally speaking, we would.
Q. Why did you pay Mr. Brotherton more as a new

teacher to the Little Rock School System than you paid Mr.
Wilson?

A. I have a few definite reasons in addition to my judg
ment in the case.

Q. Well, I ask you why?
A. He is assistant coach in the senior high school, and

[fol. 589] his administration and experience as superin
tendent and principal we considered make him more
valuable.

Q. How many assistant coaches do you have at the
white high school? A. There are several.

Q. You named about four yesterday, and here is an
other one.

A. We have to have for all the boys up there.
Q. And did you pay them more for being assistant

coaches ?

A. I think in general, sometimes that enters into the
consideration for their salary.

Q. Does that enter into the salary of any of the Dun
bar teachers who happen to be assistant coaches?

A. I don’t know. I have no report of the number of
assistant coaches.

Q. In fixing the salary of the white teachers, is it not
true that you take into consideration the fact they are
assistant coaches?

A. Possibly so. In this case it was definitely so. He
was hired for that definite purpose.

Q. And in fixing the salary of the Negro teachers, you
did not try to find out whether they were assistant coaches ?

A. If they were hired for that specific purpose.
Q. As I understand, you don’t know of individuals in

Dunbar who are assistant coaches?
A. I have no report.
Q. But you do know of individuals at the white high

[fol. 590] school who act as assistant coach?
A. I don’t know all of them.
Q. You do know some of them? A. Yes.
Q. You have also testified you took into consideration

in fixing the salary the fact that he was assistant coach?
A. It probably enters into the consideration of the sal

aries. In this case, specifically, it did.
Q. So the fact you take into consideration as to the

white teachers and do not take it into consideration as to
colored teachers would tend to make a difference in salary
on that item, wouldn’t it?

A. It would tend to, yes.
Q. How about Miss Mary Lee Wilson? Was she ap

pointed during your time?
A. Appointed just recently, yes.
Q. She is a white teacher? A. Yes.
Q. And her qualifications, professional qualifications?
A. A. B. from the College of the Ozarks.
Q. Is that an accredited school?
A. I am not sure. It is not accredited.
Q. It is not accredited? A. Yes.
Q. So that on the face her professional qualifications

are much less than Miss Brumfield, who is a graduate from

337

22—12,887

338

[fol. 591] an accredited school, with graduate work in
another accredited school? Is that right?

A. Yes.
Q. How about her experience?
A. She was twenty-four months in the schools of

Lamar, Arkansas.
Q. That is less than three years?
A. Yes, that is probably an eight-months’ term.
Q. Probably three years.
A. Three years, eight-month terms, and she was two

years or eighteen months in the schools of Rogers, Arkan
sas, was their music teacher.

Q. And that makes a total of how many years?
A. Makes a total of five years.
Q. And she has been employed to teach what subject?
A. She is the music and auditorium teacher in one of

the smaller schools.
Q. And what salary is she being paid?
A. $810.00.
Q. Why is she being paid more than Miss Brumfield?
A. I thought she Avas AA-orth it.
Q. Do you think she is [— ] more than a Negro teach

er in the elementary system who has been teaching four
and five years?

A. I was willing to risk it.
[fol. 592] Q. Willing to take chances on it? A. Yes.

Q. As to straight teachers, when I say “ straight” I
mean regular class room teachers.

A. Academic teachers?
Q. Academic teachers. Have you been Avilling to risk

more on any neAv white teacher than any colored teacher
who has been in the. system?

A. I don’t believe I understand your question.
Q. Are you paying any new teacher, Avhite, more than

you pay all colored teachers who have been in the system
four or five years? A. I believe we do.

Q. Academic teachers ?
A. I believe so, I am not sure.
Q. Teaching regular subjects? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Which ones?
A. There is Vera Eason, appointed this year.
Q. What is she teaching?
A. Teaching commercial at the senior high school.

339

Q. Don’t you consider commercial different work, a
little different? A. We don’t make any difference.

Q. I thought yesterday you said in talking about the
[fob 593] experience of industrial teachers who had had
training in a commercial office, she was worth more money.

A. Yes, I think so.
Q. So you could not compare her with a regular

teacher?
A. I don’t think the comparison would be exactly the

same.
Q. All right, can you name any more besides the com

mercial teachers; and isn’t it true that commercial teacher
had experience? A. Yes, that is right.

Q. All right, let us change the question. Can you name
me any new white teacher, new to the system, with no
professional experience, that you have paid more than
you paid the white teacher with experience in the system?

A. I don’t believe there are any.
Q. Isn’t it true because you are not willing to use your

judgment over against what you know about these other
teachers that are already teaching in the system? Isn’t
that the reason for it? A. (None).

Q. Well, that is the reason for it, that you pay the new
teachers less than you pay the new teacher with experience
when they are filed here?

A. Because their experience frequently enters into my
determination and judgment.

Q. But at least, so far as your judgment, it has never
[fol. 594] put the new white teacher without any experi
ence over a white teacher with experience in Little Rock?

A. I don’t think there are any instances like that.
Q. You don’t think there are any? A. No.
Q. But you do consider them as being better teachers

than the Negro teachers with experience in Little Rock?
A. Not Negroes, in the case of individuals I think so.
Q. There are, according to that, so many Negro teach

ers getting less than $810.00? A. That is right.
Q. Is it not true that practically half of the teachers in

Dunbar get less than $810.00?
A. A part of them do.
Q. Well, would you say that the teachers in Dunbar

who are getting less than that, with experience running

340

into a. number of years, are less valuable than these new
teachers that you admit you are gambling about?

A. I don’t think that that is true.
Q. Then why is it you pay them less than you pay the

new white teachers?
A. Because I think they are worth less.
Q. So that you are willing to gamble on a teacher?
A. I have to.
Q. And you are willing to gamble, to take a gamble

[fob 595] on new teachers over teachers you know are
good teachers ?

A. We have to gamble as to replacements.
Q. But you never gamble as to white teachers, you

never pay your new white teachers more than your experi
enced teachers? A. I gamble.

Q. Is it true you never pay a new white teacher more
than you pay the regular teachers in the system?

A. I think that is true. I never start them more than
some who have been here.

Q. That is right, but you do pay them less than Negro
teachers already in the system, I mean more?

A. I think that is true.
Q. Isn’t it true that every white teacher you have paid

more than Negro teachers already in the system, and good
teachers? A. I think that is correct.

Q. How about Shirley Oliver Roberts?
A. I recall him.
Q. I show you his application and ask you is he a

Negro? A. Yes.
Q. Was he appointed by you? A. Yes.
Q. Is he still in the system?
A. Yes, he is just recently in the system. He is not a

member of the Public School System, he is in the junior
[fob 596] college.

Q. Oh, he does not teach in the system at all?
A. He is working, his work is confined to the junior

college.
Q. And does he do work comparable to that done by

white junior college? A. On a smaller scale, yes.
Q. As I remember, you testified you didn’t know much

about junior college.
A. Not other than as a member of the Public School

System.

341

Q. I sliow you the application of Mrs. Douglas and ask
you if she has been appointed since you have been here.

A. Yes, sir.
Q. And her, she is white, is she not?
A. Yes, she is white.
Q. And her qualification?
A. I can’t read her writing.
Q. I couldn’t either.
A. She is apparently a graduate of Texas State Col

lege for Women at Denton, Texas.
Q. And is that an accredited school?
A. In home economics.
Q. Is that an accredited school? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And her degree is?
A. She doesn’t specifically mention her degree.
Q. Do you know whether or not she has one?

[fol. 597] A. I do not know. I think she has, but I do
not know.

Q. But at least you know she doesn’t have any better
qualifications than Miss Bass. Is that true? Who teaches
home economics?

A. I don’t recall Miss Bass’ degree.
Q. B. S. She doesn’t have any better than Miss Bass?
A. Probably not.
Q. And her experience?
A. She had ten months in Cotton Center High School,

Cotton Center, Texas, and was supervisor of home eco
nomics of the N. Y. A. Project for the term of six months
at some place in Texas, which I cannot read.

Q. Was she employed by you? A. Yes.
Q. And teaching what subjects?
A. Home economics.
Q. At what school?
A. I believe she has been assigned to the East Side

Junior High School, yes, that is the assignment.
Q. At what salary? A. $990.00.
A. Well, what information did you have on her be

sides what is in the application blank?
A. I don’t think I have any except what I derived from

an interview.
Q. Except what you derived from an interview?

[fol. 598] A. Yes, sir.

342

Q. Now, can you give us the best you can the reason
you think she is worth more than Miss Bass?

A. During the interview she demonstrated to me that
she would be a capable risk.

Q. Well, what’s the best estimation you made, you can
give her at that time? When you hired her. Did you
think she would make a good teacher, an excellent teacher?
What kind of teacher did you think she would make?

A. I thought she would make a very satisfactory teach
er.

Q. You thought she would make a very satisfactory
teacher? A. Yes.

Q. But you know Bernice Bass was a good teacher?
A. Yes.'
Q. You were gambling on this one?
A. That is right.
Q. And you were willing to offer her more than you

offered Miss Bass? A. Yes.
Q. That is based on your interview? A. Yes.
Mr. Marshall: May we have this marked as an Exhibit!

Any objection?
Mr. Loughborough: No.

[fol. 599] Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 10.
The above application of Mrs. William B. Douglas

(Helen E. Wills) was admitted in evidence.
(Shown following the Testimony in this printed record.)

[fol. 600] By Mr. Marshall:
Q. I show you the application blank of Miss Catherine

Mitchell and ask you if she has been appointed since you
have been here. A. Yes, a little over a month ago.

Q. She is white? A. Yes.
Q. And what are her professional qualifications?
A. She has a B. S. Degree in physical education from

Baylor University.
Q. Is Baylor University an accredited school?
A. Yes—I can’t say that without consulting the direc

tory. It is accredited in the Southern Association.
Q. It is accredited? A. Yes.
Q. Now, as to her experience.

343

A. No formal experience except as a director of a
girls’ camp.

Q. That is not, that is to be Considered but you would
not compare that with actual teaching in public schools?

A. iSo, but there is—I don’t know, because she is a
physical teacher.

Q. But you would not, for example, if you were rating
two teachers, one two years in camp and one two years in
public school, you would give the one teaching physical
[fol. 601] education in the public school the best rating?

A. That is right.
Q. And she was hired to teach physical ed.f A. Yes.
Q. In what school?
A. Little Rock Senior High School.
Q. And what salary? A. $990.00.
Q. How do you account for the $90.00 more than most

of the new teachers get in the high school? Is that be
cause you usually pay more for physical ed. teachers?

A. No.
Q. You usually pay physical ed. teachers the same?
A. I don’t pay much attention to the difference.
Q. Do you have a physical ed. teacher at Dunbar High

School, as such? A. I do not recall.
Q. I show you the blank of Mrs. Peacock, Mrs. Alfie

Peacock, Mrs. Alfie Price Peacock. Has she been ap
pointed since you have been here?

A. I think she has, I am not sure, but I will see.
Q. At what salary? A. $810.00.
Q. In the elementary schools, was she? A. Yes.
Q. Will you give her qualifications?

ffol. 602] A. She has an A. B. Degree from Hendrix,
she has one eight-weeks course at Wheaton College.

Q. Is Wheaton an accredited college?
A. I don’t know.
Q. That is in Arkansas? A. Illinois.
Q. Illinois? A. Yes, Illinois.
Q. Yes, sir, uh-huh.
A. There may be another Wheaton College, but it is not

identified by such, and there is a Wheaton College in
Illinois.

Q. Then it appears to be an accredited school?
A. It appears to be.

344

Q. So that her qualifications are similar to Miss Brum
field and the other Negroes you have been discussing?

A. I would say their degrees are comparable.
Q. And experience?
A. She reported twenty:three months in the sixth grade

of the Dumas Public Schools, Dumas, Arkansas.
Q. About how many years would that be?
A. That would be over two on a nine-months ’ basis, and

it is a little less than three on an eight-months’ basis.
Q. Why did you agree to pay her $810.00 in that case?
A. I thought she was worth it.
Q. Did you have any thing there in the application that

[fol. 603] you have that would limit the value of it?
A. Nothing.
Q. Do you have anything else there other than your

personal interview? A. No.
Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 11.

The application of Mrs. Alfie Price Peacock admitted in
evidence as Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 11.

(Shown following the Testimony in this printed record.)
[fol. 604] By Mr. Marshall:

Q. I show you the application of Miss Lena Mae Crain.
Have you appointed her since you have been Superintend
ent? A. I think so, yes.

Q. To what school?
A. I believe she right recently shows assigned to the

Wilson elementary school.
Q. Elementary school? A. Yes.
Q. She is white? A. Yes.
A. At what salary? A. $810.00.
Q. Now, give us her qualifications.
A. She has a Bachelor of Science in Education from

the Arkansas State Teachers’.
Q. And her experience.
A. The schools at Hughes, Arkansas.
Q. Two years ?
A. Yes, two years and about two eight-month terms in

the Burdette Schools, Burdette, Arkansas. A few months
over four years, in all.

Q. Can you give us any reason why she gets $810.00?
A. In my judgment, I thought she was worth it.

Q. There is nothing else you have outside of the infor
mation you obtained at the personal interview?
[fol. 605] A. I think nothing, I have nothing to offer.

Mr. Marshall: May we introduce this as Plaintiff’s
Exhibit No.—whatever it is?

Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 12.
The above application of Miss Lena Mae Crain ad

mitted in evidence as Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 12.
(Shown following the Testimony in this printed record.)

[fol. 606] By Mr. Marshall:
Q. How about Miss Mickey Johnson? Do you remem

ber appointing her? (Hands to witness) A. Yes, sir.
Q. She is a Negro? A. Yes.
Q. Where was she appointed?
A. I believe in the high school.
Q. What salary was she given? A. $630.00.
Q. Now, will you give her qualifications?
A. Well, she has a diploma from the Dunbar Junior

College of Little Rock and has completed the requirements
for the A. B. Degree at Wiley College, Marshall, Texas.

Q. And is Wiley an accredited school?
A. I think so.
Q. I think it is. A. It is in Texas, isn’t it?
Q. Yes, Texas. (Looks at it) It looks like it is ac

credited by the Southern Association.
A. I will see. It is accredited by the Southern As

sociation.
Q. And you said something about diploma had not been

issued on it?
A. She says it will be conferred on June 2, 1942. This

application was evidently filed prior to that time, and
[fol. 607] she had just finished her college work last
spring.

Q. She has an A. B. Degree now. Is that correct?
A. I can’t tell from this, but I think so.
Q. Now, she has no experience, of course.
A. Nothing but practice teaching.
Q. Nothing but practice teaching? A. That is all.
Q. What kind of a practice teacher did she make? Do

you know? A. I don’t know.
Q. And you didn’t try to find out, either, did you?

345

346

A. I don’t think I did. I don’t recall in this case
whether I did or not.

Q. On the basis of her record and these other appli
cation blanks that have been considered of teachers with
out experience and comparable training, what is the rea
son she is offered $630.00 as compared with $900.00 which
is offered the teachers in white high school?

A. In my judgment, I thought she was worth that.
Q. Your judgment is she was worth less than $900.00?
A. I do.
Q. And you think she was worth less than the white

elementary teachers ?
A. I thought she was worth about $630.00.
Q. And you had a talk with her?

[fol. 608] A. Yes.
Q. Did you have a personal interview with this teach

er? A. I doubt that I did.
Q. Don’t you remember offhand that there have been

seven Negroes appointed since you have been here that
you did not interview? A. There may have been.

Q. So they couldn’t have the benefit of talking to you?
A. In some instances, no.
Q. Now, say two teachers with the same qualifications

and experience, one has a good interview and makes a
good impression and one who was not so fortunate as to
have an interview, would it not be the one who didn’t have
the interview might get less salary? A. Might be so.

Q. Now, on some of these teachers—who do you dele
gate to tell you what kind of teachers you have at Dunbar?

A. I rely largely on the supervisor.
Q. The supervisor or the sponsor told you this Miss

Bass is a good teacher?
A. The home economics told me that.
Q. And you have to rely on her? A. Yes.
Q. How was it you paid her less than the new home

economics teacher you hired you didn’t know anything
about except the interview with her? Let me ask you why
is that?
[fol. 609] A. Because in the exercise of my judgment
that was the conclusion I reached.

Q. All right. Do you think as a result of your talking
to a prospective home economics teacher will give you a
better impression of that teacher than the report from

347

tlie supervisor of home economics teachers who has seen
that teacher teaching year in and year out?

A. I often try in the case of all home economics teach
ers to have the supervisor interview them, also, and elab
orate my judgment.

Q. Now, all right, as to home economics teacher, which
do you thnfk'dsKentitled to more Credence, talking to the
teacher or watching in the teaching of home economics?

A. I would say that their demonstration on the job
would be worth more.

Q. Now, as to this year when you fixed salaries, you
raised Bernice Bass to $720.00. Is that right?

A. That is right.
Q. Was that not on the recommendation of the super

visor that she was a very good teacher? A. Partly so.
Q. So now you know she is a good teacher?
A. I have every reason to believe so.
Q. Now, as to these white home economics teachers

you hired, you did not know either yourself or from your
[fol. 610] supervisor as to what kind of a teacher she
was? A. I did not know.

Q. You did not know? A. No.
Q. So that the only thing you had to go on was what

you got from talking to her?
A. And what the sponsor got from talking to her.
Q. From talking to her?
A. Yes, and I don’t know what investigation she made in

addition to that.
Q. But from that you decided she was worth more

than Miss Bass? A. I did.
Q. Just two more questions, Mr. Scobee, on this, on

those, what you call, rating sheets. You are not prepared
to testify as to the accuracy of these ratings, are you?

A. They are subjective ratings and cannot be measured
mathematically.

Q. Is it not true there are several mistakes in there?
A. Probably are some mistakes.
Q. For example, Miss Britt is a mistake.
A. I don’t know as to that.
Q. Miss Britt is rated what on this sheet?
A. She is rated as three.
Q. That is average? A. Yes.

348

[fol. 611] Q. And yet she was so bad you had to let her
go? A. That is right.

Q. So then this rating is not accurate?
A. I have not used the rating, and have not claimed

definite accuracy for it.
Q. Is it not true that it is lacking in a whole lot of re

spects ?
A. They always are when from opinions.
Q. And is it not true that where these rating sheets are

used, they are used for the purpose of helping or pointing
out to the teacher, pointing out the weakness of the teacher
and give to the teacher so the teacher knows her rating?

A. That is primarily the purpose, to correct the
teacher.
Q. Is it not true that the rating is given the teacher?
A. In some cases.
Q. In most cases?
A. I do not know what the practice is.
Q. Isn’t it true that it is given the teacher?
A. In many cases.
Q. And isn’t it also to the supervisor and have the

supervisor help the teacher ?
A. Yes.
Q. And isn’t it true it is not ever used for the purpose

of fixing salaries?
[fol. 612] A. I don’t believe they are ever used, be rare
instances if they were.

Q. Were these rating sheets given the teachers?
A. No.
Q. Copy of them? A. No.
Q. Have you instructed the supervisors to do anything

about this sheet so far as the rating of teachers?
A. The only instructions I have given the supervisors is

that this would be the basis for analysis and of improving
the various points they feel needed improving.

Q. You did not instruct them specifically to help these
teachers out?

A. I think they knew that. They have been supervisors
a long time.

Q. And so you rely on their judgment as to that?
A. Yes.

349

Q. I think you testified yesterday that you can’t put
teachers in blocks as to qualifications and experience?

A. Well, I said something similar to that, that you
couldn’t rate teachers in groups.

Q. Isn’t it true that you can fix the salary level as to
two items, experience and qualifications ?

A. It could be done, I think.
Q. I mean as a matter of fact, in Jefferson City you paid

[fol. 613] them on a schedule, didn’t you, they fell into
blocks, didn’t they, so that you can rate them on these
two items alone as to salary.

A. Yes, you can set up an arbitrary rating, if you want
to.

Q. And in those systems where they use them with a
fixed salary schedule, is it not true that they use these
rating sheets where there is a fixed salary schedule ?

A. I think so. These rating sheets are professional
documents aimed at the improving of the professional
ability of the teacher.

Q. And you won’t testify as to their accuracy?
A. No, I won’t as to their absolute accuracy. They are

opinions. It is difficult to determine what the accuracy
of an opinion is.

Mr. Marshall: That is all.

Here the Court announced a recess, after which it re
convened pursuant to order for recess and proceeded as
follows:

Recross Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. State whether or not you had before you this morn
ing all of the verbal and written evidence that you had
before you at the time you made your investigations of
these applicants who subsequently were appointed?
[fol. 614] A. No, I don’t believe I have.

Q. Did you have at that time written testimony, evi
dence that you do not now have ?

A. In some cases, I did not.
Q. What has been done to them now?
A. Oh, after the appointment has been made, I do not

consider it valuable information and it is confidential in
formation, anyway, and is destroyed.

350

Q. I believe most of these folders here only the applica
tion themselves and pictures and letters appointing are
still there?

A. Generally that is true, and some don’t have that
much.

Q. Do you receive forms of recommendations from the
colleges these teachers attended? And the replacement
bureau?

A. In some cases we did and some we did not.
Q. What is done with those?
A. Some are in the files when the colleges do not request

they be returned and some cases they are returned.
Q. Do you keep the letters of recommendation written

from the different colleges?
A. No, it is not my policy to do that.
Q. What is your policy?
A. After the appointment is made to destroy those.
Q. Are you able to say now with reference to each

application what all you had before you at the time you
[fol. 615] appointed or recommended the teacher for
appointment ?

A. No, I couldn’t do that, there are too many of them.
Q. State whether or not at the time you made your

recommendations you exercised your best judgment.
A. I did.
Q. Did the question of color enter into that?
A. It did not.
Q. I believe you have said that Bernice Britt and Mr.

McCallop were mistakes of judgment on your part.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall any other during the year you have

been here?
A. Not as absolutely as those two were. Some teachers

justify your best judgment and some do not, but the degree
of variance is rather wide.

Q. Several times you have mentioned that degrees
from colleges are comparable. In your interviewing and
examining the candidates, do you, state whether or not it
is your practice to accept degrees as necessarily being
comparable ?

A. Not necessarily, but when I say comparable, compar
ability of degrees I mean comparable from the standpoint
of crediting basis.

351

Q. In interviewing applicants for appointment, state
what differences you would give, if any, to the fact if one
[fol. 616] was an honor student and another a reasonably
good student.

A. I don’t think that—well, it would depend upon what
my impression of the candidate was with the cum laude,
what he had besides the record. Some very excellent
students don’t make good teachers, but in general the
better student makes the better teacher.

Q. With reference to the rating sheets in evidence, do
they tend to show the respective teaching abilities of the
individual teachers ?

A. They do. They are designed for that purpose.
Q. Do they form a test by which to judge the suitability

of salaries as compared to teaching abilities?
A. Oh, I would say they would measure in the sense the

same factors upon which worth is determined.
Q. Would that be about as good a test as you can devise

when coupled with the colleges and experience?
A. Well, I think they are the best measure of subjective

judgment we have.
Mr. Nash: That is all.

Redirect Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Mr. Scobee, I understood you to say, did I not, that
it was your policy to destroy the information in these
application blanks?
[fol. 617] A. In some cases, at least the new ones.

Q. Well, I hand the group to you and ask you to look
them over and see if it is not true that in a majority of
them you still have it there.

A. And it is in many cases. What I was trying to infer
is that the tiles are not complete.

Q. Well, it is your testimony that some of it you de
stroyed and some you did not?

A. I think it will work out that way. My intention was
to destroy it.

Q. So you don’t have any policy at all?
A. Not definitely. The only policy we have is that the

information after an appointment is made is not signifi
cant.

352

Q. I mean, what is your policy as to whether or not it
stays in the folder?

A. It is left to the clerks in the office, but from our
standpoint, we do not care whether it is in there or not,
but would prefer it to be out, because it is not significant.

Q. In any of these cases you have testified to this morn
ing, you can’t name any one where there is some written in
formation that wasn’t in that folder?

A. No, I don’t recall that I can.
Q. Isn’t it true that all of the application blanks back

over a period of years, there are plenty of information
[fol. 618] in them?

A. Some of them have information in them.
Q. Some of them have information in them?
A. Yes.
Mr. Marshall: Now, if Your Honor please, we can

excuse Mr. Scobee at this point with the right to recall him
subsequently.

The Court: All right.
Here the witness was excused.

Mr. Nash: I would like to ask that Susie Morris take
the stand again.

Whereupon, Susie Morris, a witness in her own behalf,
recalled, testified as follows on,

Recross Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Miss Morris, I believe you testified that you were
granted a divorce in December, 1939. Is that correct?

A. To my knowledge, yes.
Q. What was the name of your husband, please ?
A. Robert Morris.
Q. Robert Morris?

[fol. 619] A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where was that divorce granted?
A. I went to the Chancery Court here in Little Rock

and depositions were taken and everything else pursuant
to getting a report, and everything else was turned over to
my lawyer.

353

Q. What judge granted the divorce?
A. I don’t remember the judge’s name.
Q. Was it the Chancery Court here that granted the

divorce ?
A. It was in the courthouse.
Q. What attorney did you retain for that purpose?
A. Attorney J. R. Booker.
Q. You are sure that the divorce was granted in the

Chancery Court?
A. To my knowledge, it was granted.
Q. Did you go before the court in Pulaski County and

obtain that divorce?
A. There was a session there, and I guess it was the

court, and a white man asked questions, so I guess it is the
proper process.

Mr. Nash: That is all.

Redirect Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Miss Morris, when you testified about this divorce,
[fol. 620] would it or would it not be true that you left it
in the hands of your lawyer?

A. I left it entirely in the hands of my lawyer.
Q. And you told him to get you a divorce? A. I did.
Q. And you, as a matter of fact, don’t know whether it

was a court trial or what it was, but left it to him?
A. I went to the courthouse and was asked some ques

tions and was told I had a divorce, but I have not mar
ried since, and I had no reason to look on the records.

Mr. Marshall: That is all.

The witness was excused.

- Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, at this stage, with
exception of the right to introduce the records or the certi
fied copy of the minute records, which we would like to
have the stenographer copy, and subject to the entry of
these minute entries, we will rest, except we have the right
to introduce these at some later time.

23—12,887

354

Mr. Nash: Yes, we would like some at the same time,
and we will agree on what may be submitted.

The Court: All right.
Here The Plaintiff Announced They Rested.

[fol. 621] Whereupon, the defendants to sustain the
issues on their part, introduced evidence as follows:

Robert M. W illiams, being first duly sworn, testified as
follows on

Direct Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. State your name and address.
A. Robert M. Williams, 317 Boyle Building, Little

Rock.
Q. You are a member of the Little Rock School Board?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is your occupation, Mr. Williams?
A. I am General Agent for the John Hancock Mutual

Life Insurance Company of Boston.
Q. Do you know what the occupation is of Mr. Jen

nings, who is also a member of the School Board?
A. Yes, sir, he is in the, he is the Chrysler and Ply

mouth representative.
Q. What is the occupation of Mr. Murray 0. Reed?
A. He is an attorney.
Q. And Mrs. McDermott?
A. Mrs. McDermott is now at the head of the Family

Service Bureau. She was formerly Probation Officer.
Q. And Dr. Blakely, of course, is a practicing physi

cian, is he not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Mrs. Rawlings? She has no particular occupa-

[fol. 622] tion? She was formerly a school teacher? She
is a widow and has independent means of her own?

A. Yes.
Q. And does that cover all of the Board members ?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you been on the Board, Mr. Wil

liams ?
A. My term of office began in March, 1939.
Q. During that time, in what capacities have you

served?

355

A. My first two years I served as secretary, and the
third year I served as president.

Q. Have you ever served on the Teachers’ Committee?
A. I don’t think I have. I am sure I have not. I have

been on so many committees at one time or another, hut
I don’t recall that I ever served on what we now call the
Personnel Committee.

Q. During the time you have served on the School
Board, have you found that the Board has in use a teach
ers’ salary schedule of any kind? A. I have not.

Q. Have you ever seen such a schedule?
A. I have not.
Q. Has such a schedule been discussed at the Board

meetings at which you were present?
A. It has not.
Q. State whether or not the Board has ever instructed

the Superintendent or the Teachers’ Committee to use cer-
[fol. 623] tain figures in employing teachers?

A. It has not.
Q. Has the question of race or color ever been dis

cussed at any Board meeting at which you were present?
A. It has not.
Q. Have you been present at meetings at which the

Teachers’ Committee has made recommendations for em
ployment of teachers at certain salaries?

A. At the regular Board sessions, yes.
Q. What has been your practice with respect to dis

cussing teachers and salaries at that time?
A. Usually we adopt the recommendation of the Teach

ers’ Committee. Occasionally some Board member asks
a question about their recommendations, how about it;
as to any lengthy discussion, I can’t remember one taking
place. The recommendation of the Teachers’, of the Per
sonnel Committee is presented, and somebody brings up
the name of this teacher, and then the general Board
adopts it.

Q. What do you have in mind in passing upon the
recommendations of the Teachers’ Committee?

A. I don’t know that I get your question, Mr. Nash.
Q. On what basis do you recommend—strike that—on

what basis do you employ teachers, as a member of the
Board?

356

[fol. 624] A. Well, on the qualification bases, and the
recommendations of the Superintendent, the supervisors
and Personnel Committee as to their fitness, qualifications
and ability to teach in the Public Schools.

Q. State whether or not you consider the teaching abil
ities a part of the qualifications.

A. Oh, yes, absolutely.
Q. Do you pay any attention to the question of char

acter ?
A. Well, I personally do, yes. I lay a great deal of

stress on character.
Q. State whether or not you have personal interviews

with the applicants for teachers.
A. They frequently come to see me first to discuss the

probability of getting on the School Board and to solicit
my support or interest, or whatever you want to call it.

Q. Do you undertake, of your own personal knowledge,
to pass on the character of applicants?

A. You mean for the position of teacher?
Q. Yes.
A. I know some people that I have known for a num

ber o f years that through my personal knowledge and close
acquaintance probably I would vouch for him, while if I
wasn’t sure I would investigate.

Q. State whether or not you attempt to pass upon the
character of applicants, the character qualifications of each
[fol. 625] and every applicant before the Board.

A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. That would be impossible with some six or seven

or at least three or four hundred teachers, it would be an
impossibility to bring before the Board the contracts and
salary and go into detail. The work is delegated to the
Superintendent and supervisors and the principals.

Q. State whether or not you served on a committee to
investigate certain activities of Mr. Lewis.

A. I did.
Q. At Dunbar? A. I did.
Q. State whether or not the committee called Mr. Lewis

before it. A. It did.
Q. For what purpose?
A. Some irregularities had been reported to us, and we

desired to discuss them with Mr. Lewis.

357

Q. Did he come before you?
A. He did. He came before the Board.
Q. What was the nature of the irregularity?
Mr. Booker: Now, if the Court please, we wtould like to

object to that on the ground that it was a collateral matter
[fol. 626] brought out on cross-examination. They are
bound by the reply of Dr. Lewis on it.

The Court: That objection is sustained.
Mi. i'vash. On that point, may it please the Court, I

would like to say this. The plaintiff, Susie Morris, and Mr.
Lewis have both said on the witness stand that character
was important in the teacher. Mr. Lewis went so far as
to say it should be evaluated. Now, as to the general rule,
I think that is collateral since I brought it out on cross-
examination, but since character, itself, is an element in
teaching, anything that impeaches character is direct and
should be admissible for that purpose.

Mr. Booker: But if the Court please—
The Court: Never mind. The objection is sustained.
Mr. Nash: Note our exceptions.
Q. As .a result of the investigation—strike that, please
Did the committee in question consider this a serious

matter? A. They did.
Q. What decision, if any, did it make?

[fol. 627] A. They came to the decision to put him,
more or less, on probation, and asked Mr. Hall and Mr.
Hamilton to work with him in the solution of his financial
difficulties.

Mr. Booker: Now, if the Court please, he is going into
the matter to which the Court has sustained our objection.

The Court: Objection sustained.
Mr. Nash: The objection is to the answer, is it not?
Mr. Booker: Yes, sir, yes, sir, we object to that line

of testimony.
Mr. Nash: To the question or the answer?
Mr. Booker: To the question and, therefore, to the

answer.

358

Mr. Nash: I think his answer is improper, hut I would
like to have the Court pass on the question.

The Court: (After the question is read by the Reporter)
Objection sustained to the question and the answer.

Mr. Nash: Note our exceptions.
[fol. 628] Cross-Examination.
By Mr. Booker:

Q. How long do you say you have been a member of
the Board? A. Since March, 1939.

Q. During that time, did you state that you had or
had not served upon the Teacher or Personnel Committee?

A. I don’t think I did. I don’t remember it.
Q. Then in the course of your service on the Board,

you have not had occasion nor opportunity to pass upon
the qualifications or to make an appraisal of character
and standing of the teachers?

A. Not in toto, but individually I have.
Q. Now, can you name the individuals whose qualifica

tions you have examined?
A. Well, Mrs. Runyan here. Recently she made appli

cation and talked to me about it.
Q. Do you recall when that was?
A. Oh, it was several months ago.
Q. Is she a new teacher?
A. Well, it turned out we recommended her, but her

husband received some sort of job and was removed from
Little Rock and she did not take it.

Q. She never was employed? A. Yes.
Q. And she did not get into the system? A. No.

[fol. 629] Q. So your application is not in force?
A. That is right.
Q. Can you name another? A. Of new teachers?
Q. Yes.
A. Well, no, I can’t retail any specifically.
Q. The truth is, you just haven’t evaluated them, Mr.

Williams?
A. No, I wouldn’t say that. When I first got on the

Board there was quite a number of them, and I don’t
know, why, I had to deal with the Superintendent and
keep them from getting mad.

359

Q. Have you had occasion to pass upon the salary
recommendations of the Superintendent?

A. Only from the report of the Personnel Committee
as it comes to the Board.

Q. Have you ever differed with your committee on its
recommendations ?

A. Well, I don’t recall. There have been times when
I thought twice.

Q. Well, in passing upon the recommendations'of the
Superintendent, you have had occasion to notice the Negro
teacheis began at the salary, in the elementary schools,
of $615.00 and $630.00, haven’t you?

A. I don’t know as I ever noticed it before I got here
[fob 630] in this courtroom.

Q. You have noticed it since you come into the court
room? A. Oh, yes.

Q. And you also noticed that the salary of teachers in
the Negro High School began at $630.00?

A. Yes, from the testimony here.
Q. You also noticed the white teachers in the white

schools began at a salary of $810.00? A. Yes.
Q. And in the Little Rock Senior High School at

$900.00? A. I haven’t got that in mind.
Q. That has been the policy of the Board ever since

you have been a member of the Board?
A. Since 1939. Nine?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Well, I will put it this way. The policy of the

Board has been to adopt the recommendation of the Super
intendent and Personnel Committee.

Q. That has been the recommendation, the Superin
tendent to the Board, and the Board has adopted them,
and, therefore, it has become the policy of the Board?

A. I would say so, yes.

Mr. Booker: You may ask.

[fob 631] Redirect Examination.

By Mr. Nash:
Q. Mr. Williams, I hand you Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 4

and ask you whether you have ever seen that document
before. A. I have not.

360

Q. Have you ever seen such an instrument in a meet
ing of the School Board which you have attended?

A. I have not.
Q. Do you know whether or not the School Board has

ever adopted a schedule which that purports to be?
A. To my knowledge, no.
Mr. Nash: That is all.

Recross Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Mr. Williams, did you attend a meeting of the
Board in April, 1940, as you recall?

A. I can’t tell, I have missed some meetings.
Q. You have missed quite a few?
A. I haven’t missed very many.
Q. It is possible this schedule Mr. Nash handed you

purported to be a special adjustment plan for Negro
teachers in April, 1940, might have been before the Board
at a meeting at which you were absent?
[fol. 632] A. I would say the minutes would reflect it if
it came before the Board, and also the minutes would re
flect, likewise, likely whether I was there or not.

Q. It is possible, but you have never seen it?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Is it possible for it to come up at a meeting at

which you have been present? A. Yes.
Q. And as a member of the School Board, are you will

ing to rest upon the minutes as to the adoption of this
document? A. Yes.

The witness was excused.

Charles R. H amilton, sworn as a witness on behalf of
the defendants, testified as follows on

Direct Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. State your name and address.
A. Charles R. Hamilton, 5224 “ R ” Street.
Q. Will you speak a little louder so we may hear

you better? A. Little Rock, Arkansas.
Q. In what profession or occupation are you employed

by the Little Rock School Board?

361

A. Supervisor of Dunbar High School and Principal
[fol. 633] of the Garland School and Director of the
School Census.

Q. What degree do you hold, Mr. Hamilton?
A. I graduated from the Lebanon University several

years ago and went to the Wilmington College and took
my B. S. Degree from there, and then went—

Q. From Wilmington College? A. Yes.
Q. Where is that located? A. In Ohio.
Q. Is that an accredited school?
A. It is a Christian college, and I went then to the

University of Cincinnati, there had my college credits
evaluated.

Q. Did you obtain a degree from the latter college?
A. I did not, but I did go there five summers, I be

lieve, and got all of my academic credits, and with ex
ception of the final approval of the thesis—

Q. You were working toward what degree?
A. Master of Arts.
Q. And did you obtain the degree?
A. I did not, because after I had submitted and started

on the thesis, they asked me to do further work on it.
Of course, that was up in Ohio, and I came back here,
and at that time I was unable to go back because they
asked me to do some work on it that would entail work
during the s'chool year, and I did not feel that I could do
[fol. 634] that work on School Board time.

Q. How long have you woi’ked as a professional edu
cator? A. Over thirty years.

Q. Where did you begin? In what town did you
begin? A. At a place called Rondeau, near Texarkana.

Q. In Arkansas? A. Yes.
Q. And how long were you there?
A. I was there about four months, and took sick with

typhoid fever and did not complete the term.
Q. Where did you go from there?
A. Then I went to Fouke, Arkansas. That was a high

school.
Q. And when did you come to Little Rock?
A. The next year.
Q. Do you remember what year that was?
A. That was thirty years, this is my thirty-first year

in Little Rock.

362

Q. That would be 1911?
A. Somewhere around there.
Q. Since you have been on the staff of the Little Rock

School Board, what particular positions have you held?
A. Well, I have been principal of Garland School,

principal of Mitchell School, and principal of the Teacher
Training School.

Q. Where was the latter?
A. Rose School before it became the Junior College. At

[fol. 635] the same time, I was supervisor of arithmetic
and went around to all the schools, then I was principal of
the West Side Junior High.

Q. How long were you principal of the West Side
Junior High?

A. Two years, and then I, for five years after that,
supervised the colored schools all over, including the
elementary and primary.

Q. That included everyone up to and through the high
school grade? A. Yes, and junior college.

Q. And after that?
A. I was the General Education Board supervisor of

the program for five years, partially under the Little Rock
School Board, they were, of 'course, the ones who were to
govern it, and after that program was to last five years,
and after that the Little Rock School Board was to take
it over. Well, after five years an effort was made to
get them to extend the time and give us more money and
give us half of my salary and half of the salaries of
several of the teachers was paid through their General
Education Board, that was their policy, a five year pro
gram.

Q. How long have you been—
A. Now, that, you understand, that is not the condi

tion now.
Q. And what is the condition now?
A. After that five years, they then changed the pro-

[fol. 636] gram and there was a vacancy at Garland
School, and they added to my duties the principalship of
the Garland School, which is an elementary school, and
my entire salary after that came from the Little Rock
School Board.

Q. And what is your present work?

363

A. That is my present work and supervision of the
Dunbar High School, principal of the Garland School and
Director of the Census.

Q. How much time do you devote to your supervisory
work at Dunbar High School?

A. When there is any other duty for me to perform,
I go over there, sometimes in the morning and sometimes
in the afternoon. I don’t know just the exact hours I
spend there, but I spend some time there and quite a little
time there.

Q. Can you average any hours per day in the normal
week of hours you spend there?

A. Well, you realize that I don’t always spend the same
amount of time. Sometimes two hours and sometimes
more. That is all I know.

Q. Are you up there as much as a half a day at a time?
A. Well, in the morning very often I don’t go there

when the school opens up. In the afternoon, of course,
they don’t have a regular half-day, but I go there some-
wheres near the middle of the noon and usually stay until
school is out.
[fol. 637] Q. Over a period of a week, how many days
would you miss going to Dunbar?

A. Not very many, unless I am working on the census,
and this comes at a special time.

Q. In connection Avith you r su pervisory work, state
what you do.

A. Do a little administration in 'consultation with Pro
fessor LeAvis. I go to the rooms and'supervise, I hold
meetings Avith the teachers once or tAvice a month unless
we are disturbed and Ave do not have them. I do any
thing that Avill help supervision. W e get up courses of
study, and Ave hold meetings for conferences.

Q. Have you visited every teacher’s room in Dunbar?
A. I, oh, I Avould think I have. Understand I do not

keep an accurate record.
Q. H oav often do you visit the same teachers’ class

rooms ?
A. Well, it depends. There are forty-odd teachers

there. I don’t know, to be exact, but I try to apportion
my time among them.

Q. For what period of time do you spend, do you stay
in the class room?

364

A. That depends. I may go into the class room and
somebody call me out, and I may go in there and stay ten,
fifteen or twenty minutes, and I may stay a period.

Q. How long is a period? A. Forty minutes.
[fol. 638] Q. Are you acquainted with each of the teach
ers at Dunbar, personally?

A. Yes, I think I am personally and professionally.
Q. How long has it been, again, that you have been in

Dunbar, itself? A. Sir?
Q. For what period is it you have been in Dunbar?

When did you get Dunbar under supervision?
A. We went there about thirteen years ago. I went

in exactly the same month Professor Lewis did.
Q. You have been there since he has been there?
A. Yes.
Q. State whether or not you were given a rating sheet

for the purpose of rating the teaching abilities of the
teachers. A. I was.

Q. When were you given such a sheet?
A. Some time in April, I think.
Q. Some time in April when?
A. You mean for rating the Dunbar teachers?
Q. Yes. A. What do you mean?
Q. State whether or not you have been requested to

observe teachers for the purpose of rating.
A. In the past, any time?

[fol. 639] Q. Yes, in the past. A. Yes, yes.
Q. Prior to the year, the school year of 1941-42, state

whether or not you were in the habit of rating teachers
for teaching abilities and for the purpose of improving
the teachers.

A. Yes, I have done that for a long time.
Q. Well, for how long?
A. Oh, many years in the past, but it may not be in

the same manner.
Q. I hand you Defendants’ Exhibit No. 1 (hands to

witness). Do you recall having seen such a rating sheet
before? A. Oh, yes, yes, indeed.

Q. Have you such a sheet in the rating of teachers at
Dunbar? A. You mean for—

Q. Yes. A. Yes.
Q. When were you given the rating sheet for that pur

pose? A. You mean for the rating this year?

365

Q. Yes.
A. Oh, we have had a rating sheet like this for some

time.
Q. Given you in a particular meeting? That was the

one you had reference to when you first began such rating
sheets?
[fol. 640] A. Oh, I (stops), I don’t know, some time dur
ing the year, the early part of the year.

Q. Do you recall what month? A. No, I don’t.
Q. Do you recall whether it was before or after the

suit was filled?
A. Oh, I have seen this type of sheet early in the year
Q. When?
A. Early in the year.
Q. Can you say whether it was before the suit was

filed? A. When was the suit filed, I don’t know.
Q. It was filed in February.
Mr. Loughborough: Let me ask the witness to speak

louder, I can’t hear him sitting right here.
A. I didn’t realize it that I was speaking so low.

By Mr. Nash:
Q. Can you recall whether such a rating sheet was

given you before the suit was filed?
A. I don’t know, you know we have had rating sheets

of various kinds.
Q. Have you used rating sheets similar to that one

in the past?
A. Yes, we have had several like this one. When Mr.

Hall used to be Superintendent, we had rating sheets,
[fol. 641] Q. Is such rating sheet something new to
you?

A. No, but the type of rating was very different. We
have had this rating within groups.

Q. I hand you Defendants’ Exhibit No. 5 and ask you
that you turn to the rating sheet of Susie Morris.

Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, we renew our ob
jection to the introduction of it, and at this stage we object
to the witness referring to it on the ground we still object
to its admission.

Mr. Nash: If the Court please, I will show that this
was the particular rating sheet that was present with Mr.

366

Hamilton together with Mr. Lewis, this very rating sheet,
filled out in his presence.

The Court: All right, the objection is overruled.
A. What did you ask me?

By Mr. Nash:
Q. Will you turn to the rating sheet of Susie Morris.

Do you find it? A. Yes.
Q. Can you state what it is?
A. It is the rating sheet, that is the teacher’s name, the

school, and the grade.
[fol. 642] Q. In whose handwriting is it?

A. Her name is in my handwriting.
Q. When was that rating sheet compiled?
A. It was dated Dunbar, April the 1st.
Q. Who was present when it was compiled?
A. Porfessor Lewis and I think Mr. Scobee had been

when—possibly—I presume— (stops)
Q. Were you there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was subsequently done with this rating sheet?

Who carried or brought it from the meeting?
A. I did.
Q. What did you do with it then?
A. I took it to Mr. Hall’s office, I mean Mr. Scobee’s

office and put it on the desk.
Q. Has it been in the possession of the School Board

since then? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it in the same form it was when you took it away?

Did you make any changes in it? A. I made none.

Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, I hate to keep
arising on these objections, but if I remember correctly,
Mr. Scobee testified that during the period between the
[fol. 643] preparation of the original sheet and the final
sheet that these were in the possession of Mr. Hamilton.
Now, we have Mr. Hamilton testifying that they were not
in his possession. So a part of the basis for admitting
them in evidence was the ground that the other side would
show that Mr. Hamiton had them in his possession. Now,
Mr. Hamilton now says he didn’t have it in his possession.

Mr. Nash: May it please the Court, the testimony will
show that Mr. Scobee testified yesterday afternoon that

367

these sheets were brought to his office by Mr. Hamilton,
have been there since then.

The Court: I think Mr. Scobee testified he wasn’t there
when the final sheets were consummated.

Mr. Nash: That is right. But they were brought to his
office and have been there continuously.

The Court: The objection is overruled.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Mr. Hamilton, in how many tables of comparison
is this particular sheet divided? A. Into three.

Q. On the basis of a three-column tabulation, will you
[fob 644] read the particular point and at the same time
designate the rating ascribed to her?

Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, we object to the
use of that sheet unless, I don’t know, but Mr. Hamilton
hasn’t testified yet that he made these marks. If I remem
ber, he said he made the names on them. We are entitled
to know whether he made these marks, himself.

Mr. Nash: What is your recollection as to that, Mr. Ham
ilton?

A. I made these marks, I presume, I see it is in my
handwriting—now, this is in my handwriting.

Mr. Marshall: Tf ̂our Honor please, may we ask him
if that is his best judgment? A. Yes, sir.

The Court: All right. Overruled.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Will you read out every point, showing the classi
fication ascribed to Susie Morris ?

A. The first one on evidence of plans, it is number tw*o,
and development of objectives is two, subject matter of
scholarship is one, maintenance of class standards is two,
use of recognized methods is two, class atmosphere is two,
[fob 645] recognition of individual differences is two,
pupil response is two, skill in questioning is two, attention
to room conditions is two, professional relations is two,
esteem of parents—wait, may I make a correction? What
was that last?

Reporter: Professional relations is two.

368

A. No, that should he one.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Continue.
A. Esteem of parents is one. Class organization is two,

use of teaching materials is two, community .activities is
two, personal example is two.

Q. On the basis of a three-column tabulation, how was
Susie Morris—what would represent the average teacher?

A. Well, two, naturally, one to three.
Q. On the basis of that tabulation, how was Susie Mor

ris rated at this particular meeting?
A. Well, no place for a rating, you know, that is the

total.
Q. How many one’s does she have?
A. She has three one’s.
Q. What are the rest of the numbers?
A. Two’s.
Q. Does that indicate she is very slightly better than

the average teacher?
[fol. 646] A. That would be the indication.

Q. Mr. Hamilton, I ask that you check through these
sheets, individually, and initial those in your handwriting
and so mark. I suggest you put it up in the corner here
(points out).

(Takes time out to initial pages).
Q. Have you now marked all those appearing in your

handwriting?
A. I did not re-check it, but I presume I did.
Q. At the time the rating of Susie Morris was compiled,

state whether or not Mr. Lewis concurred in the rating.
A. I think so.
Mr. Marshall: I didn’t get that answer, may it please

the Court.
A. Yes.
Mr. Marshall: I thought you said, “ I think so.”
A. Maybe I did.

By Mr. Nash:
Q. Well, did he, or did he not?
A. He did. He was in there.

369

Q. In your best judgment—strike that—Did the rating-
arrived at at that time have any bases—strike that, please
—State whether or not the question of salary was con
sidered in making these individual ratings?

A. No, I have nothing to do with salaries.
[fol. 647] Q. In your best judgment, what teacher in
Dunbar do you believe to be the best, or the two or three
best, if you are unable to say one.

A. Well, Mrs. Floyd is (stops)
Q. Mrs. Floyd?
A. Yes, she was selected as the principal for this year.
Q. Is she the same as Mrs. McConico?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you able to name any other one or two whom

you think to be an outstanding teacher? A. Well—
Q. I hand you this Exhibit No. 5 and ask you—
Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, we object to any

refreshing of recollections from this sheet. He is asking
for his opinion as to good teachers, and now he is refer
ring to a sheet. The witness hasn’t made the statement
that the witness can’t, out of his own mind, think of the
good teachers. On that ground we object to his using any
material for making an examination.

Mr. Nash: I just assumed he is not able to remember
offhand all the teachers in Dunbar. I would just as soon
hand him a plain list of the teachers.
[fol. 648] Mr. Marshall: I will hand him a blank list.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Other than Mrs. McConico, whom do you consider
a good teacher?

A. The chemistry teacher, Mr., that name slips my mind
right now at this time.

Q. Byron Johnson? A. No.
Q. John Russell? A. No.
Q. Daniel Tyler? A. No.
Q. J. L. Wilson? A. That is right.
Q. Do you consider him a good teacher? A. Yes.
Q. One of the best at Dunbar?
A. I would think so.

24—12,887

370

Q1. Are you able to name one more whom you consider
one of the better teachers or one of the best teachers?

A. I think so. Mr. Scott.
Q. Mr. Scott? A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Hamilton, would it be fair to compare any of

[fol. 649] those teachers with the teachers in Garland?
A. The elementary teachers?
Q. Yes.
A. Well, the elementary, primary, when I say elemen

tary they are fourth and fifth grades, and first, second
and third grades.

Q. Are the teachers of the two schools on a comparable
basis? A. I wouldn’t think so.

Q. So far as the teaching abilities are concerned, state
whether or not there is any basis on which they may be
compared.

A. Well, of course, there are certain things that you
think, they have plans, they all have plans, and the value
of their activities in the community, I think you can. I
can compare my teachers.

Q. Would the development of objectives be a compar
able ground for comparison?

A. Probably so. They all have objectives.
Q. And subject matter of scholarship?
A. I guess so.
Q. Maintenance of class standards? A. Yes.
Q. Use of recognized methods?
A. Yes, if you consider them where they are teaching,

[fol. 650] Q. Are the methods different in the one school
from the other? A. What do you mean?

Q. Are the methods used in the high school different
from the methods used for elementary schools?

A. Well, if you are talking about the use of plans, you
use different plans, probably.

Q'. What about pupil response?
A. You get a different response from senior high school

class than you would from a primary class.
Q. Would you like to compare the teachers in Dunbar

with the teachers in Garland?
A. Well, I don’t know.
Q. What is your objection to it?

371

A. No objection, except there’s a difference in class
rooms, what I mean, one is a high school and junior high
and the other is primary and elementary,

Mr. Nash: I believe you may ask.
Mr. Loughborough: Just a moment. (Confers with Mr.

Nash) That is all.
Cross-Examination.

By Mr. Marshall:
Q. Mr. Hamilton, how many years have you been work

ing trying to get your Master’s Degree?
A. Well, when did I get into the field of graduate

work?
[fol. 651] Q. The specific question is, how many years
has it been that you have been working on your Master’s
Degree ?

A. I think I started in 1929, I believe that is it.
Q. And have you been going to the summer school?
A. Yes.
Q. And how many summers have you gone, altogether?
A. On the graduate work?
Q. Yes.
A. Five summers.
Q. As I understand, you don’t have your Master’s yet?
A. I have all of the academic, I do not have the degree.
Q. You do not have that thesis approved yet?
A. Approved yet, that is right.
Q. Well, now, is it not true that several of the teach

ers that you supervise have their degrees from accredited
colleges? A. Yes.

Q. Comparable to the University of Cincinnati?
A. I think so.
Ql. Well, the University of Kansas is comparable, isn’t

it? A. Yes.
Q. Is it not also true that Mr. Scott, teaching math in

Dunbar, not only has the Master’s, but he has work on his
Ph. D? A. Yes.
[fol. 652] Q. And he is under your supervision?

A. Yes.
Q. How many teachers in this elementary school you

are principal of? A. Twelve.
Q. Is that a small elementary school or a large one ?

A. Well, around four hundred at the present. I have
been there nine years, and they built another school near
my school and that reduced the enrollment the last year
or so.

Q. On your rating of Miss Susie Morris that you have
testified about, I want to ask you a few questions.

A. All right.
Q. First of all, have you ever complained to Miss Susie

Morris about her teaching?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Haven’t you complimented her on her teaching in

the past, stating that she was a good teacher?
A. Maybe so, I do not recall.
Q. How does she suddenly become an average teacher,

this year?
A. Well, the majority of the teachers are average teach

ers.
Q. A majority of them?
A. Are average teachers, that is very certain, yes.
Q. Do you consider Miss Morris an avei’age teacher?
A. Well, according to that plan.
Q. Well, I am asking you, not on this, but asking you

[fol. 653] this question: Do you consider her an average
teacher? A. Yes.

Q1. All right. On a rating sheet that had five columns,
one being the best column and five being the worst column,
which column would you put Miss Morris in?

A. What was the question?
Q. You are going to rate a teacher, and you are going

to use a five-column, from one, two, three, four, five. One
the superior teacher and five the inferior teacher. Where
would you put Miss Morris?

A. On an average, average place.
Q. That would be a little below three?
A. No, above three.
Q. As you go above, you get worse.
A. Oh, no, no.
Q. One is good and five is bad, so she would be a little

below three? She would be better than three? A. No.
Q. Now, you would rate a very good teacher one.
A. Yes.
Q. You would rate a very bad teacher five.

373

A. Yes.
Q. Where would you rate Susie Morris?
A. Taking all things into consideration?
Q. Yes.

[fol. 654] A. A little better than three.
Q. Low, the middle would be two and a half, between

two and three.
A. Well, I was thinking of one to three, the three

being the worst.
Q. No, we are using a five now, one, two, three, four,

five. Where would you place her?
A. I would put her in the better than three.
Q. Better than three?
A. Yes, I thought if you go down you become less.
Q. No, no. So at the time you rated her in April, you

considered her average, a little better than the average
because you gave her three one’s?

A. I agreed to that with Professor Lewis.
Q. Professor Lewis said she was just an average

teacher?
A. He did not, but we agreed on these opinions together.
Q. Did Mr. Lewis say to you that Miss Susie Morris

was an average teacher? A. I don’t remember.
Q. Did he give any rating on Susie Morris? '
A. I imagine, we were there together.
Q. Do you remember him saying what group she was

m? A. No, I don’t suppose I said that to him.
_Q. Subsequent to that rating sheet, didn’t vou request

him to accredit his teachers?
[fol. 655] A. No.

Q. You didn’t ask him to send you a list? A. No.
Q. Did you receive a list?
A. Yes, I didn’t know what it was.
Q. You didn’t know what it was?
A. I had not requested it.
Q. You knew what it was when you saw it? A . Yes.
Q. Do you remember where Susie Morris was on that

list? A. No, I don’t.
Q. Now, did you on these markings here, that is your

judgment, as I understand, was it not?
A. Well, that is my judgment with Professor Lewis.

Now, on evidence of the plans, what did you have,
what did you have to pass your judgment on as to what
group she belongs in on the point of evidence of plans?

374

A. Well, I see their plans, rather I see them when they
come in to me.

Q. Have you ever looked at one of Susie Morris’
lesson plans?

A. No, not all plans are written out, no.
Q. They do have written plans, don’t they?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you ever seen her written plans?

[fol. 656] A. I have not.
Q. Well, now, as to development of objectives, what

do you mean by that?
A. Well, I suppose in every class the teacher attempts

to develop certain things, depending upon the class she is
teaching.

Q. About how long does it take a teacher to arrive at
these objectives?

A. Well, you can tell soon after you go into the class
whether she has some objective.

Q. Now, we are talking about arriving at the objective,
that is what you have here, development of objective.

A. Yes.
Q. Have you watched her development of objectives?
A. I think the supervisors have.
Q. What do you mean, stay and watch them? A. No.
Q. Have you ever told her what course to follow?
A. No, sir.
Q. On this particular course, have you ever told her

what objective she had to use, have you ever discussed
that with her? A. Yes.

Q. Do you know the difference in teaching, including the
difference between intellectual approach and objective ap
proach, do you?
[fol. 657] A. I have an idea.

Q. And it would be kind of difficult for you to rate the
courses on a point like that, wouldn’t it?

A. Well, I think I could.
Q. What gave you that idea?
A. Why, my general work.
Q. You mean this graduate work that you have worked

on your M. A. for? A. Some of it.
Q. Well, can you give me the difference?
A. Oh, you can’t specify necessarily this goes here

and this goes here, you can’t do that.

375

Q. Have you built up any one lesson plan, any one
objective lesson of Susie Morris’ from the beginning to
the end? A. No.

Q. Then, how can you pass on the development of ob
jective in her class room?

A. Well, just as you see them, and hear them.
Q. Now, Mr. Hamilton, so far as Susie Morris is con

cerned, have you ever said or did anything in her class
room, with except of walking in the class room and looking
at the level or where the window shades were and looking
at the class board? A. I think I did.

Q. What? A. I have supervised.
[fol. 658] Q. What have you done in the supervision?

A. Come around and looked at how she was teaching
and compared that with another teacher’s teaching.

Q. And have you found she was not doing something
just right?

A. I don’t recall specifically.
Q. Was she doing anything just right in her teaching?
A. So far as I know.
Q. Well, how can you put her in the average?
A. With other teachers?
Q. Where? A. At Dunbar.
Q. When did you supervise a white school?
A. I never have, but I have a junior high school.
Q. When did you supervise a junior high school, white?
A. I was the principal there two years.
Q. And how long ago was that?
A. That’s been about fourteen years ago.
Q. And haven’t the methods of teaching in high school

changed since then. A. I think so.
Q. Since then? A. I think so.
Q. Don’t you know? A. I would think so.
Q. Haven’t you kept abreast of it?
A. I have tried to.

[fol. 659] Q. Then I am asking you, haven’t they
changed ?

A. I would think so, that’s what I said.
Q. The use of recognized methods, what did you grade

her on that? A. Two.
Q. What did you consider in rating on use of recognized

methods ?

376

A. What you read about, what educators have said.
Q. What do you size up when you are talking about

methods? What are you talking about?
A. The approach to a subject.
Q. A course of study?
A. Well, that would give you a basis for what you are

doing.
Q. Did Susie Morris follow the course of study you gave

her?
A. I did not say we developed the course of study.
Q. Well, she helped to develop it?
A. Her department did.
Q. Personally, she helped some?
A. Oh, yes, she was chairman.
Q. How does it happen that an average teacher gets

to be chairman?
A. I don’t appoint the chairmen.
Q. Who appoints the head of the English Department?
A. Mr. Lewis.
Q. Don’t you supervise that, too?

[fol. 660] A. No, I don’t.
Q. You didn’t bother about that?
A. No, he knows the teachers, he knows who is best.
Q. He knows them? A. Yes.
Q. Then, do I draw the conclusion that you don’t know

them?
A. Well, I don’t attempt to.
Q. How can you rate them if you don’t know them?
A. Well, because I visit them and supervise them, and

you understand I do, also, some administrative work.
Q. The only thing I am interested in is, as you say,

supervisory work.
A. That is right.
Q. Have you criticized any teacher to Mr. Lewis?
A. I always talk with Professor Lewis.
Q. When you find an inefficient teacher, what do yon

do?
A. I talk to him about it.
Q. And do you recommend that she leave?
A. No, not necessarily.
Q. You talked to Mr. Scobee about it? A. Yes.
Q. Aren’t you Mr. Scobee’s contact man up at Dunbar?

377

A. I talk with Mr. Seobee, because that is my duty.
Q. You know the teachers, the people at Dunbar who

are assistant coaches?
A. Well, you mean up to this year?

[fol. 661] Q. Yes.
A. The reason I said that, our coach is, I think Pro

fessor Jackson represents—
Q. Do you know which teachers do different extra

curricular activities? Do you know anything about it?
A. To a certain extent.
Q. I am asking you do you know which of the male

teachers act as assistant coaches, do coaching work.
A. Yes.
Q. Could you name them?
A. I don’t believe I can.
Q. So you don’t know, do you?
A. I used to.
Q. How about—up to date, you really don’t know, do

you?
A. No, I used to do it.
Q. On recognition of individual differences, what did

you give Miss Morris ? A. Two.
Q. What did you base that on?
A. Well, the methods that she used, this child and this

child.
Q. Haven’t you seen her take the so-called slow child

and give them special attention?
A. I think I have seen it.
Q. And do you, or do you not know that she is one

where every child gets individual attention ?
[fol. 662] A. No, I don’t know that.

Q. You don’t know that?
A. In one course, I was thinking of this thing—
Q. You know she has one course? A. No.
Q. Then you don’t pretend to know all about her?
A. No, you must remember part of this is half my

opinion.
Q. And what is the other half?
A. Professor Lewus’, I guess.
Q. You guess? A. Yes.
Q. Can you say positively that Professor Lewis gave

you the information for the rating sheet of Susie Morris?

378

A. No, but it seems to me that we agreed on it, that’s
what I thought we did.

Q. Let’s try real hard to get away from what you
think and get into what you know as to whether or not you
can say positively you did.

A. Well, we both sat down there together.
Q. Now, after that sheet was made, do you remember

using a five-column sheet, the teachers with a five-column
sheet? A. Yes, yes.

Q. And did you take these sheets and put them on the
five-column sheets? A. No.

Q. Did you do it?
[fol. 663] A. No.

Q. Were you present when it was done? A. No.
Q. Well, have you ever seen the five-column sheet?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Have you seen it with Susie Morris?
A. Yes, I think so.
Q. Where?
A. The five-column sheet?
Q. Yes.
A. No, how do you mean? Take this and put on the five

column sheet?
Q. That is right. A. Just as that is?
Q. No, I want to know whether you took that three-

column sheet of Susie Morris, marked Defendants’ Ex
hibit No. 5, and used it in making up a five-column sheet
for Susie Morris.

A. Not this one, no, sir.
Q. Did you make up the five-column sheet for Susie

Morris?
A. I made up one in comparison with the elementary

school.
Q. This one? A. Yes.
Q. You mean you compared Susie Morris with the

elementary school teachers? A. Yes.
[fol. 664] Q. I thought you testified on direct examina
tion that it was practically impossible to do it.

A. I did, therefore I did it.
Q. You did the impossible?
A. I did the best I could.
Q. How would you compare her to elementary school

teacher? A. To the best of my ability.

379

Q. You think she is inferior to the elementary school
teacher?

A. In comparing the two, I do.
Q. How can you compare, for example, the use of

recognized methods of an elementary school teacher with
a high school teacher? They use different methods?

A. Oh, in some cases, but the methods might be accord
ing to the subject, if you teach English in the sixth grade.

Q. What is the first grade you start teaching English
in in the elementary school?

A. The special subject English? A. That is right.
Q. Well, about the third grade. You teach English in

the first grade.
Q. Well, do you use the same method of teaching

English in the third grade, elementary, that you use in the
high school?

A. Well, not exactly, it depends upon the subject matter.
Q. I say English, do you use the same methods for

[fol. 665] teaching English in the third grade elementary
that you use in the high school ?

A. Well, as a general rule you will have certain objec
tives and have certain plans.

Q. I am directing my question, if you will permit me,
Mr. Hamilton, to the use of recognized methods.

A. Yes.
Q. Do you use the same course of study?
A. No.
Q. Entirely different? A. Yes.
Q. That is right.
A. Because you have different subjects.
Q. And the class administration would be better?
A. Yes.
Q. You have more diagram in the high school than you

do in the elementary school?
A. Well, you are supposed to have as much.
Q. What about your skill in questioning? You don’t

ask the same questions in the high school you do in the
elementary? A. Oh, no, no.

Q. So, as a matter of fact, isn’t it true what you said on
direct examination, you can’t compare a high school teacher
with an elementary teacher ?

A. They are not comparable.

380

Q. And what elementary teacher did you compare Susie
[fol. 666] Morris, which one?

A. Just each in general.
Q. You don’t know all in general, you only know those

at Garland.
A. That’s what I mean.
Q. But you compare her with those at Garland?
A. Yes. That’s all I had access to.
Q. When were you asked to make this comparison ?
A. Oh, I don’t remember, in May I believe.
Q. May of this year? A. I think so.

The Court: I think this will be a good stopping place.
Adjourn Court until two o ’clock.

Here the Court adjourned until 2:00 o ’clock P. M. on
this same day, at which time it re-convened pursuant to
order for recess.

M e . Charles R. Hamilton, a witness for the defendants,
on continued

Cross-Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. In making the comparison between Susie Morris and
the elementary teachers, were you asked to compare other
teachers at Dunbar with elementary teachers?

A. Yes.
Q. With what teacher would you compare the science

[fol. 667] teachers at Dunbar?
A. Well, in comparison just, these are the intangibles,

I just compared them as I knew teachers in general.
Q. There is nothing comparable, is there, between

teachers of science in high school and in teaching in the
elementary grade?

A. Only the plan that a teacher has, the type of teach
ing that she does.

Q. Didn’t I understand you to say that you had never
seen Susie Morris’ plans?

A. I don’t have to see plans.
Q. Uh-huh. What did you judge it from?
A. From the way they teach.
Q. Oh, from the way they teach?

381

A. Rather, there is a plan in teaching.
Q. You compared which one, each teacher at Dunbar?
A. Yes.
Q. Then what did you do? Do you put them on any

sheet of paper, or anything?
A. For the Dunbar teachers, I did.
Q. And was that the five-column sheet or the three-

column sheet? A. The five-column sheet.
Q. Am I to understand correctly that the five-column

sheet was made up on that and that is Defendant’s Ex
hibit No. 5?
[fol. 668] A. I think so, made separately.

Q. And did you use that when you were making the
five-column sheet or not?

A. You mean to get suggestions?
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Yes, I think I did.
Q. What rating did Susie Morris get on the five-column

sheet?
A. I do not recall. I heard Mr. Scobee’s rating and

I believe mine was the same.
Q. You did? A. Yes.
Q. You testified she was a little better than average?
A. What is it?
Q. Didn’t you testify she is a little better than the aver

age teacher?
A. I think so, but I was comparing on the elementary

teachers when I made this, it was on a different basis.
Q. Well, comparing her with the elementary school

teachers on this one, is she average?
A. Oh, right around, maybe a little below, that is, with

my teachers. I have good teachers out here.
Q. You have very good teachers at your elementary

schools? A. Yes.
Q. You think above the average?
A. Well, I think they are.

[fol. 669] Q. W7hat about the teachers at Dunbar? Are
they above the average?

A. W7hat are you talking about?
Q. The same—
A. When we compare Avith Garland teachers, you

don’t have any difficulty, you just have both as teachers.

382

Q. As I understand you, when you take your Garland
teachers in your mind, you consider them as above aver
age. A. Yes.

Q. Now, you admit the Dunbar teachers as a group,
do you consider them as above average or not?

A. In comparison with them?
Q. No, no. A. That’s the way I arrived at it.
Q. And what did you use to decide or determine your

Garland teachers are above the average?
A. The same thing I used to rate other teachers.
Q. The teachers at Dunbar? A. Yes, on this rating.
Q. Do you consider the teachers at Dunbar above the

average ?
A. No, in grading on different things, I rated them in

this one, you understand, they are not the same.
Q. Are all your teachers at Garland above the average?
A. Well, yes, they are (stops).
Q. Are all your teachers at Dunbar above the average?
A. No, not in comparison with them.

[fol. 670] Q. All right. Can you name the teachers in
Dunbar that you consider average teachers?

A. In comparison with them?
Q. Yes, that is right.
A. I don’t know as I can right offhand, here. You

make a rating, you don’t just do it right off the reel.
Q. Do you know the ability of other white elementary

teachers besides those at Garland?
A. Any elementary teachers?
Q. Yes.
A. We have in general supervised others. I have been

principal of other schools. You get a very good idea. You
know your experienced teacher.

Q. Comparing your teachers at Garland with these
other elementary teachers, you have supervised or noticed,
do your teachers at Garland stand above the average?

A. They rank very high.
Q. You consider them high.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that is it not a fact that in comparing these

teachers at Dunbar you Compare them with a group of
white teachers that you thought were high-caliber teach
ers?

A. Yes, and I was asked to do it, that is what I was
asked to do.

Q. And that is what you did?
[fol.671] A. Yes.

Q. They are above the average teachers?
A. I generally consider them so.
Q. Then in comparing Susie Morris with these teach

ers at Garland, what conclusion did you reach?
A. You mean what was her general average?
Q. Uh-huh. A. I think it was around an average.
Q. Around average? A. Right close there.
Q. As of now, what do you think of it?
A. What do you mean?
Q. In your own mind, as of this moment, that you

are sitting on the witness stand.
A. In comparison with them?
Q. Uh-huh.
A. I think she would be right around average, maybe

a little less, in comparison with them.
Q. Now, if you were rating her as to one, two, three,

four, five, I think you testified this morning she would
be around three, didn’t you? A. I think so.

Q. You still think that is where she belongs?
A. Yes, there is not much difference between the two

lines, but you can always—
Q. You said the difference was in her favor, or she

[fob 672] was a little better than that.
A. On this three-column?
Q. No, on the five-column. If you were rating her on

the five-column.
A. I do not remember.
Q. You do not remember where she would be in your

mind? A. You are asking me that now?
Q. Yes.
A. I would say a little below three, right around there.
Q. Didn’t you testify this morning she Avas a little

better than the average? A. On that three-column?
Q. On the five-column. A. I don’t know.
Q. Let’s get to a good teacher. What about Mr. Wil

son? Where AAmuld you put him? You said he was one
of the three good teachers. Where would you rate him?

A. Now?
Q. Yes.

383

384

A. Well, in comparison with Garland teachers?
Q. With those very good teachers you have at Gar-

1&A. I expect he is around the average, that would just
he my estimate.

Q. ' Didn’t you say this morning he was a very good
teacher? A. Yes. ,

Q. You counted him among the three of the best teach
ers there.
[fol. 673] A. Yes, that is at Dunbar.

Q. That is right.
A. In some items. You understand this is all items.
Q. And you think he is average when you compare

him with the teachers at Garland?
A. I would say take most grade teachers. I am a

geography tea'cher. He is a very fine teacher. But then
take him in science, that is what I give him.

Q. Let’s see now, could you compare him as a science
teacher with a teacher who teaches your 6B or 6A?

A. I say there are only a few things I can compaie to,
in a way, not in all things.

Q. Well, could you compare him in all things with a
music teacher? Q

A. So far as plans are concerned, I expe'ct I could, bo
far as organization, but not, of course, they are not com
parable, in a way.

Q. How about a 2B teacher? Could you compare him
to the 2B teacher?

A. Well, you could if you would take—all I can think
about is the plans, the organization of the class room,
not counting the (stops).

Q. What similarity is there between the teaching plans
for teaching chemistry and teaching plans for teaching
second grade?

A. Oh, whether they have a field lesson.
[fol. 674] Q. A field lesson? A. Yes.

Q. Isn’t that true in the 2B there we have the tea'cher
teaches all of the subjects? A. Yes.

Q. And the science teacher teaches only science?
A. Yes.
Q. And not all of the other subjects?
A. They teach other things.
Q. What else does Mr. Wilson teach?

385

A. I think he teaches in all sciences. There are very
few teachers who teach nothing but science.

Q. W ould you think it is posihle to compare him to a
teacher who teaches the grades? A. I don’t think it is.

Q. Do you think it is possible to compare him with
teachers like that? A. Not accurately, no.

Q. Do you remember when Susie Morris was hired?
A. No.
Q. You don’t remember going to her house and asking

her to take the job in 1935? A. No, I don’t.
Q. Did you rate the teachers in your school, the Gar

land School, did you rate the Garland School teachers?
[fol. 675] A. In my own mind, yes.

Q. Did you prepare a rating sheet for them?
A. No, I have done, prepared different rating sheets

just for my own information.
Q. I am talking about when you were comparing the

Dunbar teachers with the Garland tea'chers.
A. Oh, no, no.
Q. Did you assist in the preparation of rating sheets

of your teachers in Garland?
A. You mean on this— (stops).
Q. That is right. A. Yes.
Q. Yes? A. Yes.
Q. You sat in on these conferences?
A. I rated mine and turned it in to Mr. Scobee.
Q. The Garland teachers?
A. No, the Dunbar teachers.
Q. No, I am talking about wdien the Garland teachers

were rated. They have been rated? A. Not by me.
Q. Not by you?
A. Except on this, this time, of course, I have rated

them, myself, but not officially.
Q. I am talking about on these five-column sheets, I

[fol. 676] am talking about did you prepare these for
the Garland teachers? A. Not officially.

Q. Did you sit in while they were being prepared?
A. No, these were mine that were turned in.
Q. For the Garland teachers?
A. I never turned any in for the Garland teachers.

25—12,887

386

Q. Now, I am asking you, did you sit in when the Gar
land tea'chers’ rating sheets were prepared? A. No.

Q. So you did not rate them, yourself?
A. Only in my own mind.
Q. Who did you turn it over to, Mr. Scobee?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, you are comparing a teacher at Dunbar with

a teacher at Garland. Did you compare them on each one
of these items, evidence of plan and development of ob
jective? A. Yes, that is where I got it.

Q. And some times you couldn’t?
A. Well, I checked it on the form.
Q. But isn’t it true you felt you were not capable to

rate them on some points?
A. I did the best I could.
Q. How did you rate Susie Morris? Who did you

compare her with? A. Just the teachers in general,
[fol. 677] Q. In general? A. Yes, that is right. _

Q. As to evidence of plan, you rate her two— evidence
of plan. Is it the general use, general in Garland?

A. Yes.
Q. Nothing specific? A. Yes.
Q. That is true, generally, on these items ?
A. I would think so.
Q. Then, as I understand you, when you first rate

Susie Moris as a teacher, you find she is a little better
than the average?

A. On a three, yes, on the three-column.
Q. Then when you rate her as over against exception

ally good white Garland teachers, elementary teachers,
you find out she is just average? A. Yes.

Q. And she is still at that stage, she has not gone back
any further than that?

A. I don’t know, whatever the report shows.
Q. When is the last time you have been in her room?
A. Miss Morris’ ?
Q. Yes.
A. I don’t know. I go over there frequently.
Q. Was she doing all right as a teacher at that time?

[fol. 678] A. As far as I recall.
Q. After you found out in your mind that she was a

little below average, did you go to her and tell her that?
A. No, because these are confidential reports.

387

Q. Confidential? A. 'Yes.
Q. And you found her lacking in some individual

items. Didn’t you, or did you?
A. I don’t know, I don’t know what you mean.
Q. Well, she was just average according to your testi

mony? A. Yes.
Q. So that some things she wasn’t so good in. Isn’t

that correct?
A. Well, I don’t know what — average — she was at

least average.
Q. Isn’t it true that you really don’t know what the

average teacher is?
A. No, I think I do.
Q. You think you do? A. Yes.
Q. Do you think an average teacher lacks something?
A. Well, she is not exceptionally good in all things.

Above the average is exceptional.
Q. Do you consider it your duty to help an average

teacher to get up to be a better teacher? A. If I can.
[fol. 679] Q. Well, why haven’t you helped Susie Morris
get better ?

A. Well, most of my work I do through Professor
Lewis.

Q. Have you said to Professor Lewis, “ You go down
and help Susie Morris.” A. I don’t think so.

Q. Aren’t you sure you have not? A. Recently, yes.
Q. Since this rating sheet, you are sure of that, aren’t

you? A. Yes.
Q. How long have you considered Mrs. Gwendolyn

Floyd an exceptionally good teacher? She is the one you
testified this morning she was a good teacher and been
transferred. A. Yes.

Q. How long have you considered her a good teacher?
A. I don’t know.
Q. For more than a year? A. I don’t know.
Q. You observed her over a period of years? A. Yes.
Q. And you came to the conclusion she was a good

teacher? A. Yes.
Q. A very good teacher?
A. She was considered a very good teacher.
Q. How did she rate up when you compared her with

[fol. 680] these exceptionally good teachers at your
school? A. I don’t know.

388

Q. Well, can you compare her in your mind now with
those teachers?

A. I would have to, you see my teachers, as I said,
were exceptional teachers. I doubt, where anyone would
come in close or near, I would consider them a very per
fect teacher, and I don’t know that way about others.

Q. In your school, all of them class one?
A. Oh, some of them.
Q. And none of them in Dunbar?
A. Yes, in certain items.
Q. Let’s go hack. Do you consider any teacher in

your school one in all items? A. Not in all.
Q. You do not? A. No.
Q. So if they are rated one in all items, that would be

in disagreement with what you think?
A. Well, that would be my opinion.
Q. So, naturally, you don’t consider any teacher in

Dunbar number one in all items, do you?
A. I think not.
Q. How about Mrs. Floyd?
A. I would not put her in class one on some items,

but I would —
[fol. 681] Q. What would be her average? Would you
put her in two?

A. What are you asking me about?
Q. Comparing her with your teachers at Garland.
A. I understand.
Q. You do? A. That is right.
Q. And where would she shape up?
A. She would be an average.
Q. Average ?
A. I guess all along, somewhere, maybe have some

items above.
Q. So when you say she is a very good teacher, you

mean she is a very good teacher until you compare her
with your teachers? A. That is right.

Q. Am I correct in saying nobody at Dunbar above the
average when you compare them with your teachers?

A. I don’t think so.
Q. How about Mr. Scott? A. He is not.
Q. Mr. Wilson?
A. I don’t think, I think he was about average, if I

recall. I can’t, of course, recall everything.

Q. I am not asking what you think he was, I am talk
ing about in your own mind now.
[fol. 682] A. I would say in comparison with my teachers,
he is less than—

Q. Less than the average?
A. Oh, he is around average, anyway.
Q. No better than average?
A. Not better than average. Maybe so, I don’t recall.
Q. Let’s get this straight so we will have no misunder

standing, Mr. Hamilton. When you say “ average” , do you
mean average as to the level of all your teachers in your
school? A. Yes.

Q. So if all your teachers are exceptional teachers, if
Mr. Wilson is the average he would be an exceptional
teacher, too? A. No.

Q. Do you consider him as good as some of your
teachers? A. In some things?

Q. Not the average? A. No.
Q. I mean, taking all things into consideration, do you

consider him as good as some of the teachers in your
school?

A. Taking everything into consideration?
Q. Yes. A. I don’t think so.

[fol. 683] Q. You don’t think anybody in Dunbar is?
A. No, I don’t.
Q. Do you know much about teaching of science in high

school as to present day methods?
A. I have not taught it, I have supervised it.
Q. Is it hard to supervise some subject you have not

taught? A. What?
Q. I ask you if it is not hard.
A. Yes, it is hard to supervise any subject.
Q. What studies have you done in supervising? You

don’t know any chemistry?
A. Just the regular A. B. Degree, I didn’t major in

chemistry.
Q. Would you consider yourself capable of setting a

judgment on the teaching ability of a teacher teaching
chemistry with an M. A. Degree?

A. I would think so.
Q. You think you would be? A. Yes.
Q. And are you familiar with the methods of teaching

chemistry? A. With general methods.

389

390

Q. For chemistry? A. Yes, I would think so.
Q. Would you know how to hold a laboratory in

chemistry?
[fol. 684] A. According to what type, in supervision
you don’t take the subject alone and supervise that one
subject.

Q. While Mr. Wilson is holding a laboratory, how can
you watch on evidence of plan there?

A. As to what he is trying to do.
Q. Do you know what he is trying to do?
A. I try to find out.
Q. And how do you try to find out?
A. By observing the children as they do what he tells

them to do.
Q. For example, if a teacher was, when you go in there,

is developing a preparation—would you understand what
he is doing?

A. Probably not that one thing.
Q. So you couldn’t criticize that on the way he was

teaching it? A. Not that one thing, no.
Q. You couldn’t, could you? A. No.
Q. Suppose he was developing some substance in his

laboratory, you wouldn’t understand what he was doing?
A. Not just a special thing, not right then.
Q. If you stayed there ten or fifteen minutes, would

that not still be true? A. Might be true.
[fol. 685] Q. Have you taken any courses in laboratory
techniques? A. No.

Q. So you could not pass upon the technique he is using?
A. Not on the particular technique.
Q. How could you?
A. Oh, I could tell if he had a good class.
Q. Now, in the use of materials. Do you know how to

use a Bunsen burner that is used in science teaching?
A. I did when I was taking chemistry.
Q. And how long ago was that?
A. A good many years.
Q. More than thirty? A. Yes.
Q. And how about the use of flasks? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know how to use a distillery?
A. Well, no, not altogether.

391

Q. Now, going to—how about biology? Do you know
how to develop these plans?

A. I did not major in biology.
Q. Well, you supervise biology in Dunbar? A. Yes.
Q. Have you done any extra work in it?
A. No.
Q. So the only knowledge you have of biology is what

[fob 686] you got in college?
A. And supervising classes.
Q. Do you do any supervising in the white high school?
A. No.
Q. You couldn’t compare Mr. Wilson with a teacher of

biology in the high school? A. No, sir.
Q. How do you get your knowledge of plans in the

biology room ?
A. Just all upon observation, what he is doing.
Q. In other words, you would compare what he is doing

with what the elementary school teacher is doing in your
school? A. Yes.

Q. For example, what subject in the elementary school
would you compare with a biology teacher?

A. I would just compare general teaching of any sub
ject.

Q. Is laboratory teaching different from class room
teaching?

A. Well, of course, teaching is not all done exactly
alike in any subject.

Q. Well, I mean isn’t it entirely different?
A. Probably so, but the technique of teaching would

be simplified in the class room.
Q. Can you take a class room teacher who is teaching

a primary grade and put him in the biology lab and let him
teach biology lab ?
[fob 687] A. My judgment would be—

Q. No? A. No.
Q. And the same would go in chemistry lab?
A. I would say no.
Q. The methods of teaching are different?
A. The general methods are not, but the technique of

teaching the subject is.
Q. What kind of general methods? They ask questions

and elicit answers? A. Yes.

392

Q. And anything else that is similar?
A. Organization in class.
Q. Is the organization in chemistry lab anything sim

ilar to the organization of a primary class?
A. No, but you can tell whether they are organized.
Q. It is entirely different? A. Yes.
Q. As a matter of fact, in chemistry lab they are all

around doing different things. A. That is right.
Q. What do you know of the methods of teaching math

ematics?
A. Yes, I took that, but I didn’t major in math.
Q. You didn’t major in math? A. No.
Q. Have you had any study in the methods of teaching

[fol. 688] mathematics?
A. No, I took a class in the methods of teaching sub

jects, not only like mathematics or arithmetic but—
Q. When you try to get a mathematics teacher, don’t

you try to get one who is trained in teaching mathematics?
A. You have to, the North Central Association requires

it.
Q. So, in your judgment, in your mind, wouldn’t you

think that a person with an M. A. in the methods of teach
ing mathematics would know more about teaching math
ematics than you do?

A. Might be so, but that don’t mean he can do it.
Q. You assume they can?
A. Yes, when we employ him, yes.
Q. Do you supervise music in Dunbar?
A. Just in general, just as a supervisor.
Q. You don’t attempt to supervise the methods of

teaching music?
A. No, I find out by asking the sponsor.
Q. How about the methods of teaching bricklaying?

What do you know about that?
A. Don’t know very much about it.
Q. Or teaching of carpenter work? Do you know muck

about it? A. No, sir.
Q. How can you rate these teachers?
A. Well, by the methods of teaching and plans and

[fol. 689] things that they have.
Q. Well, how do you compare in your school? You

have Baker Shelton teaching bricklaying in Dunbar. Who
do you compare him with in your school?

393

A. Just any of the teachers.
Q. Yon don’t have anybody teaching bricklaying?
A. No, but in supervising you take it all into considera

tion.
Q. What is your idea of supervising? You are using

that word quite a bit.
A. Going in and visiting a teacher, seeing what she is

doing, how she is doing it, see if there is any changes that
should he made in the teacher.

Q. In your mind, whom do you think is better able to
rate the teaching ability of teachers at Dunbar, you or
Mr. Lewis?

A. Oh, well, I don’t know, of course, I was assigned
that job by the Superintendent and the School Board.

Q. Do you think your judgment of the ability of the
teachers is better than Mr. Lewis’, the Dunbar teachers;
you don’t think it is better, do you?

A. Well, I don’t know how much he visits.
Q. You know how much you visit, though.
A. Yes.
Q. And you know he is in the school longer than you

are? A. Yes.
[fol. 690] Q. You know that, don’t you?

A. He has lots of administrative job to do, I imagine.
Q. You imagine? A. No, I know he does.
Q. You know he does? A. Yes.
Q. You wouldn’t put your judgment above his, would

you?
A. Well, yes, I do if, I do it professionally entirely.
Q. Well, can you give me any instance where you have

in instructing a teacher where you have put your judg
ment above his?

A. Only when I consulted with him about what I have
seen in the room and asked him if he will look after it.

Q. But if he comes back and says he thinks that teacher
is all right, then what?

A. Well, I don’t know that he has ever done that.
Q. Well, do you know of any instance where your judg

ment and his judgment have been at odds on a teacher?
A. No.
Q. I asked you this morning as to whether or not he

didn’t send in a list of teachers by groups. Do you have
a copy of that list?

394

A. It may be in the office, I do not, it just came in,
I didn’t ask for it, therefore I didn’t—

Q. It came in? A. Yes.
[fol. 691] Q. Will you look and see if you can find the
original! A. Yes.

Q. At this time that the comparison was being made
between the Dunbar teachers and your teachers, was Mr.
Lewis present! A. No.

Q. Was Mr. Lewis present during the time that each
one of his teachers at Dunbar was rating in April?

A. Yes.
Q. I understand you, Mr. Lewis and Mr. Scobee visited

several of the teachers’ rooms together? A. Yes.
Q. But you didn’t visit all of them that day?
A. Not all.
Q. And how long did you stay in the rooms?
A. It varied from ten to fifteen minutes.
Q. Was that in April? A. Yes.
Q. Was Susie Morris one of the first rooms you went

in? A. The first?
Q. One of the first? A. I don’t remember.
Q. You don’t remember? A. No.
Q. And when you were told to compare these two, what

[fol. 692] reason was given to you for comparing Dunbar
teachers with those in your school?

A. Well, these were only the Dunbar, and then I was
going to compare in general.

Q. By whom were you asked to compare them?
A. Mr. Scobee.
Q. And why? A. I don’t know why.
Q. Did he say definitely, “ Compare them with the

teachers in your school?”
A. That’s all I had, and then, of course, only as general

information, as anyone generally knows one.
Q. And no reason was given at all?
A. No, not to me, but I have done that before with

Dunbar alone, .and mine, rating teachers.
Q. You have done it before? A. Yes.
Q. And turned it over to the School Board?
A. Yes, to the Superintendent.
Q. Have you ever rated them on these subjects like

this?
A. Not on them, I have on others.

Q. Haven’t you generally just put them in different
groups? A. Different in general.

Q. As to these?
A. As to all of them in certain ways—
Q. But not like this?

[fol. 693] A. Not like this.
Q. This was something new? A. Yes.
Q. The first time you saw it?
A. Yes, that is the three-column.
Q. Yes, the three-column. This is marked Defendants’

Exhibit 5. The first time you saw it was April?
A. Yes, that is the three-column.
Q. April, 1942?
A. Yes. Now, we had some other sheets than before

that.
Q. I am asking you about this one.
A. That three-column—

Mr. Loughborough: He is entitled to make that explana
tion. I ask that he not interrupt him.

The Court: Let him finish his answer.

Mr. Marshall: I have no objection to him making it.

Mr. Loughborough: No, but you interrupted him.
By Mr. Marshall :

Q. Go ahead, Mr. Hamilton. Do you want to make an
explanation ?

A. I said this: that is the first time I saw this three-
column sheet. There have been others.
[fol. 694] Q. I am talking about the ones you have
seen. A. Yes, that is right.

Q. I am talking about this one which has been marked
Defendants’ Exhibit 5. With those subjects on it.

A. Yes.
Q. You have seen one just like it before?
A. No, no, this is the only one I have seen. I have seen

those that were different. It seems to me that I recall that
we had one that was like it or something like it. I don’t
know definitely. You know I have so many of these things,
I don’t remember.

Q. So you are not sure? A. No.
Q. But you know you never saw this one before?

395

396

A. Not the three-columns.
Q. Until April, 1942?
A. May have had others with three-columns on it,

something like that.
Q. But you are not sure of that? A. No.
Q. You know, do you not, Mr. Hamilton, about the

complaint made by Mr. Taylor concerning Susie Morris?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it not true—did you talk to him about it?
A. Mr. Taylor?

[fol. 695] Q. Uh-huli.
A. Mr. Scobee [let], gave me a letter that he had re

ceived.
Q. And you talked to Susie Morris and investigated

that complaint, did you not?
A. I am trying to think (stops)
Q. Go ahead.
A. As to what happened. I took the letter out, I be

lieve, to Professor Lewis and then, I don’t know whether
he did or I did, but we asked her what about it. I believe
I left it.

Q. As you remember, weren’t you satisfied with the
result of your investigation?

A. At that time I was.
Q. That there was nothing wrong with anything Miss

Morris had done? A. Yes.
Q. As a matter of fact, when Mr. Taylor sent in the

letter, the only mistake you made was in opening the first
one. Didn’t you say that? A. No.

Q. Mr. Taylor made complaints about other teachers at
Dunbar? A. I don’t know.

Q. Didn’t he use to teach out there?
A. Yes.
Q. And wasn’t he dismissed?

[fol. 696] A. Yes.
Q. Have you received any other complaints about Miss

Morris’ teaching from parents?
A. I don’t remember any.
Q. And have you ever talked to any parents about

Miss Morris? A. I don’t remember.
Q. Well, how can you estimate the item under esteem

of parents so far as Miss Susie Morris is concerned?

A. Well, the supervisor just hears things, you know,
in general.

Q. What have you heard about Miss Susie Morris?
A. Well, I don’t know.
Q. Well, how does it happen you rate her low on that?
A. Well, in comparison as a rule, esteem of a teacher,

she is average, because I don’t hear anything. If you
hear good you rate her high; if complaints you probably
rate her low.

Q. How much time do you spend in the Negro com
munity where you would hear teachers discussed outside
of high school? A. Not very much.

Q. Not very much?
A. Most of mine would be based on what I heard in the

school.
Q. So you wouldn’t hear a dis'cussion of her among the

parents ?
A. No, but I would hear the results, maybe.

[fol. 697] Q. When you don’t hear anything, you con
sider that average? A. Yes.

Q. And if you hear something good, you consider them
good? A. Yes.

Q. And if you hear something bad, you consider them
had? A. Not unless you investigate.

Q. And you didn’t investigate her? A. Yes.
Q. How far did you investigate?
A. With Professor Lewis.
Q. What did Professor Lewis say the parents thought

about her? A. Oh, I don’t know.
Q. As a matter of fact, as to that item, isn’t that a

guess? A. Well, it ’s an estimate that I made.
Q. And it is based on the fact that you didn’t hear any

thing? A. What is that?
Q. And it is based on the fact you didn’t hear any

thing good or bad? A. (None)
Q. Do you know Miss Little, who teaches up at Dun

bar? A. Yes.
Q. Haven’t you said repeatedly she is one of the best

[fol. 698] teachers of English in the Little Rock School
System? A. I don’t remember, no.

Q. Do you remember having ever telling Mr. Lewis
that? A. No.

Q. Do you consider her one of the best?

397

398

A. She is good.
Q. Below the average?
A. Now you are thinking of the entire city?
Q. Why, you don’t know the entire city.
A. That’s the reason I asked you.
Q. I am talking about you rating her.
A. On a three-column rating sheet?
Q. Yes.
A. I don’t know on that three-column rating, of course,

if hers is rated up three ways, an estimate of three, I
imagine.

Q. Now, set up on the—what you think about her as
a tea'cher as you look back on her teaching.

A. Rated on that— (stops).
Q. First, we will rate on the three-column.
A. Then it is three.
Q. No, this was made April the 4th, I am asking first

about. A. It would not be much different.
Q. What would you say about her?

[fol. 699] Mr. Loughborough: Of course, if the Court
please, I think he would be permitted to refresh his recol
lection by looking at the memoranda rather than depend
ing upon his memory.

Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, I think I have a
perfect right to test the witness’ memory.

The Court: l7es: if the witness doesn’t recall.
Mr. Loughborough: That is true enough of he would

like to consult his memoranda and give the answer.
Mr. Marshall: This is not a memorandum.
Mr. Loughborough: I know it is not, but there is

another one that is. If you want to answer as to what
his rating is now, I think he has a right to look at it if
he doesn’t remember.

The Court: Yes, he has a right to look at it.
Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, what I am trying

to get at today is to get Mr. Hamilton’s impression_ of
Miss Little now, not on the 4th of April, and I am asking
[fol. 700] him now what kind of teacher does he consider
Miss Little.

399

The Court: He can answer that.

Mr. Marshall: That is the question.

A. As she is in Dunbar School?
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Yes.
A. You see, I made two ratings is the reason I asked

that.
Q. I am not interested in either of those ratings. I

am interested now as of this time.
A. I would say she is an average teacher.
Q. Just average?
A. Well, in many connections she would score a little

above the average.
Q. Well, is she a little below or a little above?
A. A little above.
Q. And on the three-column sheet, where would you

put her? A. I don’t know.
Q. Qn a five-Column sheet, where would you put her?
A. I don’t know.
Q. You think you can rate her?
A. Well, just as she teaches every day without any

comparison?
Q. Yes.
A. I would say she is an average teacher, plus.

[fol. 701] Q. Now, at the time you compared these Dun
bar teachers with the teachers in your school, what ma
terial did you have in front of you? A. My own ideas.

Q. Nothing written, did you? A. No.
Q. You had a five-column sheet? A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. As I understand you, that nothing before

you, and you have nothing definite, and on comparing her
with the teachers in your school, using a five-column sheet,
where would you put her on evidence of plans ?

A. This is the five-column sheet, and you are just want
ing my opinion now?

Q. I want your opinion, comparing her with the teach
ers in Garland on evidence of plan. What group would
you put her in? A. I would put her in three.

Q. Three? A. Yes.
Q. Development of objective? A. Three, I guess.
Q. Subject matter of scholarship?

400

A. Probably two.
Q. Maintanence of class standards?

[fol. 702] A. Three.
Q. Use of recognized methods?
Mr. Loughborough: Just a moment, if Your Honor

please. There would be no objection to his having one of
these blanks before him so he can see it?

Mr. Marshall: The plaintiff won’t object, no, not at all.
Mr. Loughborough: That is a three-column sheet?
Mr. Marshall: No, that is five-column. (Hands to wit

ness)
Mr. Loughborough: This is testing not what he did

at the time but what his personal recollection is?
Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, if I can have the

question straight, I am asking him to rate him as of now.
Mr. Loughborough: Stating what it has been from the

recollection without looking at any memorandum to re
fresh the recollection? I don’t mind that being done.

Mr. Marshall: That is what is being done, Mr. Lough
borough, if you don’t mind it.
[fol. 703] Mr. Loughborough: Just a minute. But the
effort to show that was his rating after deliberation and
what he would make this memorandum is a different thing,
but it would be his best recollection now, which would be
a very different case. He has a good many teachers.

The Court: All right.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. All right, Mr. Hamilton, use of recognized methods
is the next step. A. Yes.

Q. And what column would you put him in?
A. Three.
Q. Class atmosphere? A. Two, I believe.
Q. Recognition of individual differences?
A. Four.
Q. Pupil response? A. Three.
Q. Skill in questioning? A. Four.
Q. Attention to room conditions? A. Three.

401

Q. Professional relations?
[fol. 704] A. Three, as I recall.

Q. Esteem of parents? A. Three.
Q. Class organization? A. Four.
Q. Use of teaching materials? A. Four.
Q. Community activities? A. Three.
Q. What do you know about her community activities?
A. Only insofar as I, if she has, if I thought she was

doing all right and nobody had ever said anything, I
Avould say she was an average teacher in the way of Com
munity activities. I have what I got here from Professor
Lewis.

Q. Where would you put her on that item?
A. Three, that’s the average.
Q. Because you haven’t heard anything of her?
A. Yes, now, and also in community activities they

take up money and work with the P.T.A. probably and
such thing as that, that is community activity, up there
selling- tickets for the show, or looking up their score.

Q. Which would put her in average of three?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How about personal example? A. Three.
Q. Now, what would be her average for the whole thing,

all these threes, or did you let the teachers figure that out?
[fol. 705] A. What is that now?

Q. When you prepared this, before this time.
A. I didn’t figure any average.
Q. You didn’t figure any averages out? A. No.
Q. Just one more. On the same basis, we were on

Susie Morris, compiled right down on the same line just
like you compiled Miss Little. Where would you put her
on evidence of plans, Susie Morris, the plaintiff in this
case? A. Three.

Q. Development of objectives?
A. Two, I believe, I put here.
Q. Subject matter scholarship? A. Three.
Q. Maintenance of class standards? A. Three.
Q. Use of recognized methods? A. Three.
Q. Class atmosphere? A. Two.
Q. Recognition of individual differences? What did

you say last? Two for class atmosphere?

26—12,887

402

A. I was thinking I put three there and two for the
next.

Q . Three for class atmosphere and two for recognition
of individual differences?
[fol.706] A. Yes.

Q. Pupil response? A. Three.
Q. Skill in questioning? A. Four.
Q. Attention to room conditions? A. Four.
Q. Professional relations? A. Three.
Q. Esteem of parents? A. Three, I made it.
Q. Class organization? A. Four.
Q. Use of teaching materials? A. Four.
Q. Community activities?
A. As far as I know, that was three.
Mr. Loughborough: What is that? Three?
A. Three.

By Mr. Marshall:
Q. You mean, so far as you know it was or is?
A. Is.
Q. Personal example? A. Three.

[fol. 707] Q. So that there is a little difference between
this rating and the one you made in Mr. Lewis’ office, isn’t
there ?

A. I don’t know. You see that one in Mr. Lewis’ office
isn’t mine alone.

Q. Oh, this is the combined judgment?
A. That one is.
Q. And this is yours alone? A. Yes.
Q. Well, which one would you think in your judgment

was worth the more, the combined one or your individual
judgment?

A. Well, I don’t know, according to who is evaluating it.
Q. Which would you rely on ?
A. I would on number three, the three-column, I would.
Q. The three-column, that is the one you rely on?
A. I believe so.
Q. If I understand you correctly, you said it was practi

cally impossible to compare these teachers with elementary
teachers, but you were told to do it and you did the best
you could.

A. I compared them to the best of my ability.

403

Q. But you stated it was practically impossible to do ’
it?

A. They are in different subjects, yes.
Mr. Marshall: If your Honor please, we turn the witness

over.
[fol. 708] The Court: I guess we had better adjourn.

Here the Court adjourned until 9:30 A. M. on October
the 2nd, 1942, at which time the Court re-convened pursuant
to order for adjournment.

Mr. Charles R. H amilton, re-called as a witness on
behalf of the defendants testified as follows on

Redirect Examination.
By Mr. Loughborough:

Q. Mr. Hamilton, I was out of the room when you were
qualified and just in a few words I want to check your
experience here. You are Principal of Garland High
School and supervisor of Dunbar?

A. Elementary.
Q. Elementary? A. Yes.
Q. You have been in that position and before how many

years? A. In that position eight years.
Q. Eight years back of now? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And your average daily attendance on Dunbar is

about what part of the school day, would you say?
A. Oh, about half, or over.

[fol. 709] Q. About half? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now prior to that eight years back now, what was

your job with the schools?
A. On the general education board and Little Rock

School Board employed me to supervise the school census.
Q. The school census? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long did you have that job? A. Five years.
Q. Back of that is what? That is thirteen years back

of now.
A. I was two years principal of the West Side.
Q. Of West Side?
A. Junior High.

404

Q. And back of that? You have gotten back fifteen
years.

A. I was Principal of Rose School, which was then a
demonstration school.

Q. How long?
A. I think about six and a half years.
Q. That goes back to twenty-one years. Is that so ?
A. I think so.
Q. Prior to that, were you with the schools?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In what kind of a job?
A. I was Principal then of Mitchell elementary school,

[fol. 710] Q. How many years there?
A. I was there, I think, about two and a half years.
Q. That takes you back some twenty-three or four

years? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that the beginning of your connection with the

schools in Little Rock?
A. No. When I first came here, I was principal of the

Garland School again.
Q. How many years ?
A. This is my thirty-first year.
Q. In the schools? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were working with the teachers all of the

time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, I also understand there were two of these

sheets, one rating sheet which I understand is just put
down the teachers and your observation on there.

A. Yes, sir.
Q. The first was made up by you in collaboration with

Mr. Lewis, the Principal of Dunbar?
Mr. Marshall: I think we ought to have that clearly

before the Court, and he is repeating the same testimony
yesterday.

The Court: He has already testified. He has covered
that testimony.
[fol. 711] Mr. Loughborough: If Your Honor please,
that is not at all clear, the part Mr. Lewis played in it. I
want it as a fact.

The Court: All right.

405

By Mr. Loughborough:
Q. What did you do and what did Principal Lewis do

in making up this three-column rating sheet?
A. We sat around Professor Lewis’ desk, Mr. Scobee,

Professor Lewis and myself; and after we had visited
the teachers. Then when Mr. Scobee was there, he and I
checking as we already had discussed.

Q. Now, as you discussed did you agree on that rating
before it was put down or what about that?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there any dissent when the rating figure was

announced which was being put down? A. No.
Q. Was that put down in your presence, and only you

and Mr. Scobee put it down? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did anybody else write anything on this sheet but

Mr. Scobee and you? A. No.
Q. Mr. Lewis did not put any down? A. No.

[fob 712] Q. That is right. Now, when that work was
finished, there was no disagreement about what that rating-
should be. Is that right? A. That is right.

Q. Now, if I don’t state it right, correct me. I don’t
want any confusion in this testimony. A. That is right.

Q. After that was done, these sheets were turned over
to Mr. Scobee? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And he took them? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the next you heard that was the comparison of

the teachers in Dunbar? A. That is right.
Q. Now, then, the next done was Mr. Scobee asked you

on this five-column sheet to rate the teachers at Garland.
Is that right ?

A. With the teachers in Dunbar.
Q. With the teachers in Dunbar. That is what I mean.
A. Yes. sir.
Q. Now, that is the five-column sheet? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you do that? A. I did.
Q- And did you put the figures actually on the sheet?

[fol. 713] How did you handle the mechanics of making
that sheet?

A. I had my notes, and I had my secretary, Miss Eason,
typewrite in the dictation to her.

Q. How did you handle that? Did she take it down in
shorthand or write it on the typewriter as you called it
off, each sheet ?

406

A. She wrote it on the typewriter as I called it off.
Q. Did you stay right there at the typewriter!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And as she had finished what you dictated, did she

take it off and put it on the table ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. She is here in the board rooms or the court room?
A. I haven’t seen her.
Q. She would he one place or the other ?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. After that was finished, what did you do with that

pile of sheets?
A. Turned them over to Mr. Scobee.
Q. Just as she handed them to you from the typewriter?
A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Loughborough: I shall want to ask her one

question, and that is whether she put them down just like
he called them to her, and we now interrupt this testimony
to show that.
[fol. 714] Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, we shall
make no objection that she actually copied down what he
told her.

Mr. Loughborough: Well, that is satisfactory then in
the record that way.

Now, I was out when Mr. Hamilton first took the stand,
without objection, and I didn’t hear the details of his
testimony, and without objection I will let Mr. Nash take
up the redirect examination.

Mr. Marshall: No objection to it at all, Mr. Lough
borough.

The Court: That is all right.
Mr. Nash: (Resuming redirect examination).
Q. Mr. Hamilton, I believe you have said you did not pre

pare an individual rating sheet for each teacher at Garland.
Is that true? A. Yes, sir.

Q. State whether you discussed the teachers at Garland
from time to time with Mr. Scobee.

A. Just like as I would in a consultation with the super
intendent.

407

Q. In observing the teachers in class room activities,
state whether or not you had to be able to teach the specific
subject you are judging in order to judge how well or
poorly it is being done. A. No.
[fol. 715] Mr. Nash: That is all.

Mr. Loughborough: May I intrude just one question?
Q. Is there anything novel in your school work in

having a rating sheet similar to this one?
A. We have had them all during my time here.
Q. Before this one was made up? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was the rating and subjects somewhat similar to

what was on here, on this one? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that was no peculiar innovation?
A. I never considered it such.
Q. I believe this number three sheet was made up and

shown to you before this suit was brought? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Loughborough: That is all.

Re'cross Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Mr. Hamilton, is it not true that this three-column
sheet, marked Defendants’ Exhibit No. 5, that you testi
fied yesterday you never saw them before April?
[fol. 716] A. No. As I understand, that is this—

Q. That is Defendants’ Exhibit No. 5.
A. I had a sample, I am sure. We usually do have.
Q. I am asking you, did you have these sheets, the

sheets just described, prior to April the 1st, 1942?
A. In a superintendents ’ meeting, that is, we have

principals’ meeting. He gave out some rating sheets, and
I think this was one, a sample.

Q. And were you told—when was this superintendents’
meeting had?

A. He has them monthly, sometimes semi-monthly.
Q. How long ago was it that that rating sheet was

shown to you? I mean which one of these superintendents’
meeting was it? This year or last year?

A. Last year.
Q. Last year? A. Yes.
Q. You are sure of that? A. Yes.
Q. But were you given one of these sheets?

408

A. A sample, yes.
Q. Well, what was said about it?
A. They discussed it, as I remember, in the princi

pals’ meeting, as a sample of a rating sheet. You under
stand a sample rating sheet is often talked about.
[fol. 717] Q. In other words, you discussed different
kinds of rating sheets at different times? A. Yes.

Q. W ell, noAV, when was it that you were first told to
use that type of rating sheet as it appears in Defendants’
Exhibit No. 5? A . You mean to make a report?

Q. That is right.
A. I think to make a report, this was the first one I

got.
Q. Is it not true that you had never been told to rate

the teachers on that particular sheet prior to April, 1942?
A. Well, we had a rating sheet that we often rate

teachers for our own satisfaction.
Q. Was it different from that sheet?
A. We had some that were different, those we have

had—superintendent’s rating sheet.
Q. Different from that one? A. Yes.
Q. Now, when was the first time that you used the

sheets to rate a teacher?
A. I cannot give the date, but it was evidently early

in the year.
Q. Did you early in the year use that rating sheet

to rate teachers? A. I did not, no.
[fol. 718] Q. Were you told early in the year to use it to
rate teachers, or were you told in April to use that to
rate teachers?

A. The first time I used it to rate the teachers was
about this date.

Q. Have you been using that sheet to rate teachers
at Dunbar all along? A. No.

Q. The first time was in April? A. Yes.
Q. When was the first time that you compared the

teachers in Dunbar with teachers in Garland?
A. When I was asked to do so.
Q. In May ?
A. No—yes, we used them school years.
Q. In speaking of calendar years, it was May of this

year? A. Yes, sir.

409

Q. That was the first time you had compared them
with teachers in Garland?

A. Yes, but I had had the rating sheets.
Q. Since April?
A. Oh, no, before that, during the year.
Q. You had this rating sheet?
A. No, I had a sample rating sheet.
Q. Prior to April? A. Yes.

[fol. 719] Q. But were you using it to rate teachers prior
to April?

A. No, we just, as a rule, looked at the rating sheet
and studied it and rated the teachers at the end" of the
year.

Q. And you had used other types of rating sheets be
fore? A. Not in that year.

Q. At other times? A. Other times, yes.
Q. Now, as to this three-column sheet that you say was

prepared in Mr. Lewis’ presence. Did you go over it with
Mr. Lems?

A. Each one of these items, these teachers at that
meeting.

Q. Each item? A. Yes.
Q. And did you ask him his opinion on each item as

to each tea'cher?
A. I don’t know that I asked him direct, but he was

there in consultation.
Q. Is what happened, did you put down the figure, and

because he didn’t say anything to the contrary you as
sumed he agreed with you. Is that right?

A. It was no agreement, as I understood it. There
was no objection.

Q. Then, when you say there was agreement, you mean
there was no objection? A. I assumed that was true,
[fol. 720] Q. That is Avhat actually happened? I mean
[was] actually happened was when Mr. Lewis wouldn’t
make an objection you assumed he would agree?

A. They did that with mine, Mr. Scobee—
Q. Did what?
A. If I didn’t object, he put it down, and I guess that

was the concensus of opinion, that is what I am trying to
say.

Q. What I am trying to get at is, what led you to the
opinion it was the concensus of opinion? Was it that he

410

would say, “ Lester Bowie, evidence of plans, two,” and
Mr. Scobee would say, “ Yes,” and Mr. Lewis would say,
“ Yes.” Is that the way it went on?

A. I think in general it was just like we would sit
around here and discuss the matter—

Q. Me—

Mr. Loughborough: Let him finish.

A. And somebody would say about what is the grading
on that teacher? And Lewis would say, or one of us say,
“ About two,” and Mr. Scobee would usually say, “ Is
that about right?” And if he were not three, I would say,

“ Yes, two is all right.”
Q. Did you ask Mr. Lewis about each one of these

items on each teacher? A. That is my recollection,
[fol. 721] Q. Well, all right. You remember Susie Mor
ris’ sheet, don’t you?

A Yes, I remember it, remember seeing it there.
Q. You knew at that time that she was the plaintiff in

the case, didn’t you? A. Yes.
Q. So—Well, now, when you went down her sheet, did

Mr. Lewis say that that was his idea of her rating?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Do you remember that he did?
A. No, I couldn’t identify which item there as to who

said this and who said that.
Q. You remember yesterday you admitted that you

had received a letter from Mr. Lewis grouping his teach
ers? A. Yes.

Q. And you promised to look for that letter?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you find it? A. Yes.
Q. Do you have it with you?
A. Yes. (Hands to counsel)

Mr. Marshall: I would like to have this marked as
exhibit.

Mr. Nash: No objections.

Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, no objection, may
[fol. 722] we have this marked as Plaintiff’s Exhibit
No. 13?

411

Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 13.
The above document marked Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 13.
(Shown following the Testimony in this printed record.)

[fol. 723] By Mr. Marshall:
Q. Mr. Hamilton, have you ever shown Mr. Lewis the

five-column rating sheet? A. No, no, I haven’t.
Q. So far as you know, whenever you dealt with him,

you dealt with him with the three-column sheet, didn’t
you? A. Yes, sir.

Q. I show you this marked Plaintiff’s Exhibit 13 and
ask you as to whether or not the grouping of the teachers
there is in direct conflict with the grouping of the teachers
in Defendants’ Exhibit 5. A. I don’t know.

Q. All right, let’s go down the list, and Defendants’
Exhibit 5, the name of Lester Bowie, on the rating, doesn’t
it-—this list, Bowie, appearing on Defendants’ Exhibit 5.
TV hat would you say his would be A. I estimate two.

Q. And where does he appear on that? (Pointing to
Plaintiff’s Exhibit 13.) A. I don’t see it.

Q. Is that it? Doesn’t it appear to be on there? What
is your answer? A. I do not find it.

Q. How about Miss Brumfield? A. In group two.
Q. That is Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 13, she appears in

group two? A. Yes.
Q. And on your sheet she appears around about that,

[fol. 724] Is that correct? A. I so report.
Q. Defendants’ Exhibit 5? A. That is right.
Q. Mrs. Bush. How does she appear on Plaintiff’s 13?
A. Third.
Q. How does she appear on this?
A. You mean on the five?
Q. On the five? A. Three.
Q. Was that correct? A. Yes.
Q. How about Edna Douglas? How does she appear

on Plaintiff’s No. 13, Mr. Lewis’ rating?
A. Group two.
Q. How does she appear on yours?
A. About group two.
Q. All right. How about India Elston? How does she

appear on Plaintiff’s 13? A. Three.
Q. And how does she appear on yours?

412

A. About that, I would think, pretty close.
Q. Was that correct? A. Yes.
Q. About the same? A. Yes.

[fob 725] Q. How about Gwendolyn Floyd? How does
she appear on Plaintiff’s 13? A. One.

Q. How did she appear on yours?
A. When you say yours—
Q. With respect to Defendants’ Exhibit 5.
A. Two.
Q. So they don’t agree, and Mr. Lewis rates her higher

than you did. Isn’t that correct? A. Yes.
Q. What about Mrs. Gravelly? A. Group one.
Q. She is rated by Mr. Lewis as group one. What

rating did you give her on that five point one?
A. We gave her near about one, very close.
Q. As a matter of fact, don’t you go from two on up?

That wouldn’t be one, would it?
A. I beg pardon, I w"as counting the number of those.
Q. Now, she has how many marks in the first column?
A. There is six, nine.
Q. How many in the second column? A. Seven.
Q. Miss Gillam. Where does she appear on Mr. Lewis’ ?
A. In group two.
Q. Where does she appear on the one you prepared?

[fol. 726] A. About two, as I see it.
Q. In other words, according to these sheets, one mark

in the first column, seven marks in the second column, and
eight marks in the third column. A. Yes.

Q. And you consider that as two? A. Yes.
Q. Mr. John Gipson. Where does he appear on Plain

tiff’s Exhibit 13, which is Mr. Lewis’ rating?
A. Group one.
Q. Where do you have him? A. In group two.
Q. Thelma Gibson? A. Group three—group two.
Q. On Mr. Lewis’ where does it appear on it?
A. Group two average.
Q. 0. N. Green? A. Group two.
Q. That is group two on Plaintiff’s Exhibit 13?
A. Yes.
Q. And where does it appear on this ?
A. Group two.
Q. They agree? A. Yes.
Q. Andrew Hunter?

413

[fol. 727] A. Group two.
Q. On Plaintiff’s 13, and how does it appear on De

fendants ’ Exhibit 5 f A. Group two.
Q. They agree? A. Yes.
Q- Owen Jackson? A. Group two.
Q. Where does it appear on this? A. Group two.
Q. They agree? A. Yes.
Q. Miss Olga Jordan? A. Group one.
Q. Group one on Plaintiff’s 13? A. Yes.
Q. Where did she appear on Defendants’ group five?
A. Group two.
Q. They don’t agree? A. No.
Q. Tessie Lewis? A. That is here, I am sure.

.Q- It is, what group is Tessie Lewis on Plaintiff’s Ex
hibit 13? A. On 13 is two.

Q. And on Defendants’ Exhibit five?
[fol. 728] A. Is two.

Q. As two, they agree? A. Yes.
Q. How about Miss Little? Where does she appear on

Plaintiff’s Exhibit 13? A. Group one.
Q. Where does she appear on yours?
A. On the line between.
Q. She is how many in column one?
A. She is eight in column one, and she has eight in

column two, and three—no, she has six in column two and
two in column three. That is right.

Q. Miss Susie Morris. Where does she appear on
Plaintiff’s Exhibit 13? A. Group one.

Q. Where does she appear on here (Defendants’ Ex
hibit 5)? A. In group two.

Q. Miss Dorothy Moore? A. In group one
Q. On Plaintiff’s Exhibit 13. And where does she ap

pear on this? A. In group two.
Q. How about Bruce Moore? A. I don’t see it.
Q. All right. How about N. S. Parr? Your answer is?

[fol. 729] A. I do not see it.
Q. Alice Terry? A. Group one.
Q. Plaintiff’s 13. And where does she appear on De

fendants’ Exhibit No. 5? A. Group two.
Q. J. D. Russell? A. Group two.
Q. Where does she appear—where does he appear on

Defendants’ Exhibit 5? A. Group two.
Q. They agree? A. Yes.

414

Q. Grendetta Scott! A. G. Scott. I have it.
Q. And it is in what! A. Group one.
Q. Defendants’ Exhibit 5! A. Group two.
Q. B. T. Shelton? A. Group one.
Q. On your sheet? A. Group one.
Q. Group one! A. Yes.

[fol. 730] Q. So they agree? A. Yes.
Q. Tyler, D. P. Tyler? A. Group two.
Q. And where does it appear on this? A. Group two.
Q. And Mildred Works?
A. Yes, that is in group two.
Q. On Plaintiff’s Exhibit 13, and where does it appear

on this? A. Group two.
Mr. Marshall: If Your Honor please, in order to shorten

it, we can compare this later.

The Court: All right.

By Mr. Marshall:
Q. So that in several instances, the ratings agree?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Lewis’ rating and this sheet, they agree?
A. Yes.
Q. And in several instances, the sheet is below Mr.

Lewis in the rating as to efficiency? A. Yes.
Q. Is it not true that you received that before the final

[fol. 731] ratings were made, which was May the 14th, I
think ?

A. Yes, and this is the rating on his school.
Q. Well, did you?
A. You mean before we rated?
Q. Before the final ratings were made on the five-

column sheets. A. This was before.
Q. That was before? A. Yes.
Q. Did you take his rating into consideration in making

the comparison? A. I was not asked to do that.
Q. The question I am asking you is whether or not

you did or not? A. No.
Q. Did not? A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. Because I had, I was supposed to compare in my

opinion Dunbar with Garland School.
Q. Well, who rated the teachers in Garland?

415

A. I did.
Q. Rated the teachers in Garland? A. Yes.

r̂ ' * !h°ught y°u said yesterday you did not rate the
[fol. 732] Garland teachers?

A. In comparison with the others.
Q. I mean, did you rate them as such, the Garland

teachers ?
A. And sent the rating into Mr. Scobee?
A. No, sir, but I did for my own personal information

rate them.
Q. lo u know the Garland teachers were rated?
A. I rated them.
Q. Didn’t the supervisor rate them?
A. No, I did. That wasn’t within my experience, and

I don’t know.
Q. You don’t know? A. No.
Q. But you didn’t or did you send your rating into Mr.

Scobee on the Garland teachers?
A. Yes, no, not on a little sheet like that.
Q. Yes? A. No.
Q. Now, can you account for the fact that although in

some instances some of the teachers are rated in the av
erage gioup, but at the April conferences, and then in
the letter from Mr. Lewis they are half in the first group,
and yet on your rating you put them down in the fourth
group. How did that happen?

A. ̂Because I was rating all the teachers that I super-
[fol. 733] vised on the last ones.

Q. You mean rating them with the Garland teachers?
A. Yes, on a different bases.
Q. What was the difference in the basis?
A. Well, I took into consideration the white teachers

that I supervise at Garland.
Q. And you used them as a test?
A. Not as a test, I just took them up altogether.
Q. I thought you said a minute ago, you said vou rated

them _ on different bases, that account for the fact that
one time they were average and the next time they were
poor. A. That is the teachers at Dunbar.

Q. Started out in April in the average group and some
of them you have rated in the first group?

A. That is right.
Q. Yet and when you compared them with the Garland

teachers they fell down the full group.

416

A. That is right.
Q. In this three-column sheet, one is good, the best,

isn’t that true? A. I imagine that is so.
Q. The column marked one? A. What?
Q. The column marked one.

[fol. 734] A. One?
Q. Is best? A. Yes.
Q. Two is what? A. Average.
Q. And three is what? A. Below average.
Q. Below average? A. Yes.
Q. So that a teacher who gets in column one is above

the average teacher?
A. On that thing she is marked on.
Q. All right. Now, in rating these teachers in one,

we were basing it on the regular course of study and regu
lar methods of teaching and everything else and generally
recognized.

A. It was based upon the general supervision of the
teacher as you visited her.

Q. All right. Going on to the development of objec
tives and decide whether the teacher failed in one or two
or three. Don’t you, in your mind, use the regular stand
ard methods of teaching, as you see it? A. Yes.

Q. As you see it? A. Yes.
[fol. 735] Q. And some teachers get an excellent for
that one group? A. Sometimes, yes.

Q. And some of them did? A. Yes.
Q. Well, now, then, you go over to Garland School

where they use the same methods. Is that correct?
A. Well, according to what they are teaching, yes.

You would judge, if you were judging the plans they are
compared to all the plans.

Q. So that this rating on the five-column sheet was
more or less of a competitive rating, wasn’t it?

A. No, not necessarily.
Q. In your mind, didn’t you put the Dunbar teacher

in competition with the Garland teachers, in your mind?
A. Well, no, not necessarily. You just rate them.
Q. Well, did you compare them?
A. Yes, I imagine that you, I just took them all and

rated them and found where they belonged.
Q. And was it a comparative basis you used?

417

A. I didn’t, not necessarily. I just rated them as a
whole.

Q. What I am trying to get at is how you can rate a
teacher in the first group in April and in May put her
in a different group.

A. Well, you have a different group rating.
Q. Well, now you are rating a Dunbar teacher in April,

[fol. 736] A. Yes.
Q. And the Dunbar teacher rates one. A. Yes.
Q. In May you go over to the Garland, and the Dun

bar teacher rates four. A. Yes.
Q. m a t I am trying to get at is, if you had them all

in the groups, both white and colored, you find out where
each stands, so it is a competitive basis.

A. One teacher against the other, it might be so.
Q. You rate them one against the other?
A. Yes, as a group, say you group teachers, you just

take the group.
Q. So that in your mind that tends to rate the white

and colored teacher on a different basis?
A. I think not, but I am conscious of the fact that one

is colored, of course, but when I get to Dunbar I don’t
think of color in supervising.

Q. Didn’t you, after preparing these sheets — strike
that, please. Did you, as of April last year, consider any
Dunbar teachers on a par with the teachers in Garland
in teaching ability? A. You mean when?

Q. As of April, 1942.
A. We were then rating the Dunbar teachers.

[fol. 737] Q. But in your mind, did you consider Dun
bar teachers on an equal teaching level with the Garland
teachers or not?

A. You have two different bases for each group, the
Garland teachers and the Dunbar teachers. The groups
would not be the same.

Q. So that as long as the Dunbar teachers were being
rated by themselves, they got very good ratings, didn’t
they? A. Well, you have them there.

Q. But as soon as you put them up against Garland
teachers, they dropped down?

27—12,887

418

A. They were rated on different bases, they were
rated on different bases.

Q. Will you give the theory of rating? You have
studied the rating of teachers, have you not? A. Yes.

Q. In the general rating of a teacher on a sheet like
this, (pointing to Defendants’ Exhibit 5) in rating, for
example, the question evidence of plans, do you rate that
teacher according to how that teacher develops a plan as
an individual, or do you rate that teacher as over against
the teacher as to how she develops the plan? What is the
theory behind the rating of teachers?

A. The theory is if this teacher rates better than this
teacher, you so mark.
[fol. 738] Q. Is it on a competitive basis?

A. In your mind is what the qualifications were.
Q. In your mind, in rating a teacher in Garland, do

you compare each one in your own mind with each teacher
in Garland?

A. If I am rating them in the group as grouping them
I do, but, also, you rate according to what is in your
judgment, these intangibles.

Q. As a matter of fact, Mr. Hamilton, in your study
of the system of rating a teacher, isn’t it true that all
educators agree you have to remove the competitive
equation out of it?

A. For some things I think so.
Q. They all agree on that?
A. For some things I think they do.
Q. They do? A. Yes.
Q. Do you supervise teachers at Garland?
A. Yes.
Q. Don’t they have elementary supervisors who super

vise them, also? A. Ye§.
Q. So that your supervision is just the regular super

vision of a principal?
A. Yes, I am supervising principal.

[fol. 739] Ql. And these supervisors come in, don’t
they?

A. Yes, at their own discretion. There is no set time
for them.

Q. So that these — you have the supervisors coming
in there who would be in position to rate these teachers ?

A. I think so.

419

Q. How much do you go around in the class room?
A. Oh, I am there at least half a day.
Q. At least half a day? A. In my own school.
Q. Do you go around and supervise their classes?
A. Yes.
Q. And watch the same way you did at Dunbar?
A. Yes, of course, I am the administrator, too, there;

at times I have administrative work, but I am responsible
for the supervision there at that school.

Q. Now, Mr. Hamilton, in your regular supervising
of these teachers and your regular supervising at Dun
bar, prior to May of this year, did you, in your mind,
compare the teachers at Dunbar to the individual teachers
at Garland? A. I don’t know.

Q. Do you think you have? A. I don’t know.
Q- Didn’t you consider them a separate group, one

in high school, one in the elementary school?
[fol. 740] A. I don’t know. I can’t answer that.

Q. Did you consider them as comparable?
A. On that, what happens in one class room, happens

in another.
Q. Did you ever compare them?
A. Not for degrees.
Q. For teaching ability? A. I don’t know.
Q. So May is the first time you did it, May of this

year ? A. I might have had it in my mind.
Q. The first time you put it on paper?
A. This is the first time I have ever been asked to.
Q. The answer I want, Mr. Hamilton, is this the first

time you did it? A. Yes.
Q. Was in May of this year? A. Yes.

Mr. Marshall:
You may ask.

Redirect Examination.
By Mr. Loughborough:

Q. Mr. Hamilton, in order to prevent any confusion
here in this rating when you and Principal Lewis were
making up this three-column sheet, so far as the grading
on everything, you didn’t ask him each time, “ Do you
[fol. 741] agree, yes or no?”

A. No, sir.
Q. You sat down and made the sheet up together?

420

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he dissent from any rating you finally put

down there? A. No, sir.
Q. He agreed with it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In May, did he afterwards, he made up this

separate group and you were not there and don’t know
how he arrived at it?

A. I didn’t know what it was for. I didn’t ask him for
it and knew nothing about it and paid no attention to it.

Q. At the time you made your rating, he agreed with
you? A. Yes.

Q. He may have remained silent if he didn’t agree
with it rather than to get into an argument? A. No.

Q. But you say you had made up these rating cards, or
didn’t you? You may have said you didn’t. Have you
made up any rating sheet at all for teachers’ ability to
teach? A. Yes.

Q. You have made them up?
[fol. 742] A. Yes.

Q. On the letter of Principal Lewis, he just has three
groups, and some generalities above that. A. Yes.

Q. In your three-column sheet, there are ten or twelve
items? A. Yes.

Q. In his letter, he incorporates just a few? A. Yes.
Q. I show you a paper and I will ask the notary to

mark the next number, Defendants’ 8. Did you ever see
one of those, that blank? A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever use one? A. Yes.
Q. What is it?
A. This is a teacher’s self-improvement and self-rat

ing card.
Q. What do you have to do with it when you use it?
A. Well, just went over these various items and en

deavored to classify them.
Q. Did you do that, or the teacher ?
A. Well, sometimes the teacher made one for herself

and sometimes I made one.
Q. You have used that, you think, to rate the teachers?

[fol. 743] Q. During the years prior to this? A. Yes.
Q. How long did you use it, about, say?
A. I don’t know. We have used several different types.
Q. Similar to that? A. Yes.
Q. During the years in the past you have been there?

421

A. Yes.
Q. ̂ W hat about down here, all these various things, and

I think there are about forty qualities, but here is
a column headed “ superior, satisfactory and poor” . Isn’t
that sort of a three-column rating on that whole basis?

A. Yes, yes.
Q. And on the back is a lot of instructions? A. Yes.
Q. I would like to show that to Your Honor (hands to

the Couit). Mr. Hamilton, take a teacher with a good
degree and length of service, say five years or ten years,
and another teacher with the same degree and length of
service five or ten years, and one is a good teacher and one
a poor. In your opinion, ought the salaries to be the
same?

A. Ought the salaries to be the same?
Q. Now, if one is a good teacher and one a poor, and

they have the same degree and same length of service?
[fol. 744] A. I do not make up salaries.

Q. But you have an opinion? A. Yes.
Q. What is your opinion?
A. Of course, she should not be paid the same.
Q. I f one is a good teacher and one bad? A. Yes.
Q. And the degree and length of term is not by you

looked on as a measure of a teacher’s capacity?
A. That is right.
Q. So far as work is concerned? A. Yes.
Q. He asked you if you rated them on a competitive

basis. That is my reason for asking that question, that
there might be no confusion about that. That is all.

Mr. Marshall: That is all.

Miss A n n i e G r if f e y , sworn as a witness on behalf of
the defendants, testified as follows on

Direct Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. State your name and address, please.
A. Miss Annie Griffey, 2110 Battery Street, Little

[fol. 745] Rock, Arkansas.
Q. State whether or not you are now employed by the

Little Rock Public School System, and, if so, in what
capacity?

422

A. I am, as Assistant Superintendent, supervising the
primary grades and auditorium.

Q. What grades are included in the primary grades'?
A. First, second and third.
Q. How long a period of time have you been so em-

poyed?
A. I have been supervising thirty-one years.
Q. All together, in Little Bock Public School System?
A. Yes.
Q. And for the first, second and third grades?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that true for the one as for the other, the white

and colored s'chools? A. Yes.
Q. For these three grades, generally, they are the

same teaching level, Miss Griffey? A. Well, yes.
Q. Tell, briefly, what you do as supervisor of these

three grades.
Q. Well, I visit the teachers, check on the type of work

done in the class room, I meet with them, I send them
outlines, of course, if you want me to go into the class
room procedure as to the way I can—
[fol. 746] Q. Do you assist them in preparing their cur
ricula? A. Oh, yes.

Q. In visiting the class rooms, what do you do?
A. Well, the first thing I look at when I visit the

class room is the class room management, pupil control,
teacher’s attitude to pupil, pupil’s attitude to teaPher,
work periods, what is being accomplished during the work
period, the teacher’s presentation of her objective, like
that.

Q. How long do you visit each class room?
A. I can hardly ever stay less than twenty minutes.

It depends upon what I am there for. If organizational
purposes, it might be for less time, and if for inspection
of teaching ability and work accomplished, results ob
tained during the presentation periods or work being
done by pupils, sometimes twenty, sometimes thirty, some
times forty minutes.

Q. Do you ever stay as long as a period?
A. Always stay as long as a period if I am inspecting

work done by a class.
Q. How often do you visit the various teachers?

423

A. W ell, that depends upon, we have a great many
interruptions, meeting and things of that kind, and I try
to make the teachers a visit, well, my entire time is spent
visiting schools and visiting rooms.
[fol. 747] Q. Is that all you do, supervise?

A. That is all.
Q. Can you estimate and give an average of about

how often you visit a teacher?
_ A ’ C)h, sometimes about, well, maybe I visit them every

six weeks and maybe it would be over two months. Then
sometimes not more than twice a term. It depends upon
the interruptions I have and office work.

Q . And do you visit some more often than others?
A. Yes.
Q. Why do you do that?
A. I do that to help them when they are not making

good.
Q. Do you do any teaching, yourself? A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you ever do any teaching in class rooms when

you visit? A. I do.
Q. State whether or not you meet with the teachers

other than in the class room visitations? A. Yes, I do.
Q. What sort of meetings are these, Miss Griffey?
A. Well, we have meetings now and then. Sometimes

we have conferences with them while I am in the school,
and then we have faculty meetings with them.

Q. Do you ever meet in groups?
[fol. 748] A. Yes.

Q. What do you do in these groups?
A. Well, I note the good things I have seen that are

good things, and I investigate, and the things that I have
seen that are bad, and where I think they are falling down
in the different subjects, I think they are falling down, I
take that subject up with them, and I make my criticism
on it and try to suggest improvements in their plans.

Q. State whether or not you have prepared rating
sheets for those teachers within your sponsorship.

A. I have.
Q. Do you recall when you were furnished with these

sheets for that purpose?
A. Well, in the spring of 1941, Mr. S'cobee and I dis

cussed rating points, and then in the fall, I think, of 1941,
the points were shaped into the sheets.

424

Q. And when you received sheets for the purpose of
rating students, teachers, I mean, when did you?

A. Well, we received sheets for discussion in the fall
of 1941, and receiving sheets for rating in the spring of
1942, about March or April, I cannot tell the exact date.

Q. I hand you Defendants’ Exhibit 1. Do you recall
when you first saw a rating sheet similar to that one?
[fol. 749] A. I have seen these points on this rating
sheet, well this is the one, the sheet that I rated our
teachers by in the spring.

Q. And when did you first receive sheets like that and
when did you first use a sheet like that?

A. That was in the spring of 1942, I saw a sheet, three-
column sheet in 1941.

Q. State whether or not that is the sheet you dis
cussed with Mr. Scobee.

A. What I discussed with Mr. Scobee, I dis'cussed a
three-column sheet with Mr. Scobee.

Q. The points on this, are these the same points?
A. The same points.
Q. Have you prepared a rating sheet for each teacher

within your sponsorship? A. I have.
Q. Where are these sheets? What did you do with

them? A. I turned them over to Mr. Scobee.
Q. In your best judgment, what colored teacher do you

think is the best one within your sponsorship?
A. That is very hard to check your very best teacher,

but my best, all-round teacher, some teachers are good in
one point, some teachers are better on that same point,
but my best all-round teacher, I would say, is Mrs. Bruce
in the Bush S'chool.

Q. Cornelia Bruce?
[fol. 750] A. Yes.

Q. Are you able to say who, of your white teachers,
is the least efficient?

A. No, I have three or four. They are good teachers,
I will name, do you want me to name one or two whom I
think are the least efficient by comparison with the other
teachers?

Q. Yes.
A. This is embarrassing, but Miss Hagler, one at For

est Park—
Q. Miss Hagler? A. Yes.

425

Q. As between Miss Hagler and Miss Cornelia Bruce, is
Miss Hagler as good as or is she poorer or better than
Miss Bruce? A. She is better.

Q. Why do you say that?
A. Well, she has more initiative, she has more initiative

and she handles material better.
Q. Are you able—
A. Among other things I Could mention.
Q. Are you able to say from your recollection what

specific grade Cornelia Bruce teaches?
A. She teaches the IB.
Q. Are you able to say from recollection what grade

[fol. 751] Miss Hagler teaches?
A. Well, she is IB sometimes and 1A. She has, at

times, had a 2B. She is, as a rule, a IB and a 1A teacher.
Q. In your best judgment, is there any white teacher

under your supervision who is inferior to Mrs. Cornelia
Bruce? A. No, taking all the points, no.

Q. Would you be willing to compare any given colored
teacher with any given white teacher?

A. Yes, I think so.
Q. Do you have anything to do with fixing the salaries ?
A. I do not.
Q. Would you know how to fix salaries for teachers?
A. No.
Q. Have you had any experience in fixing salaries?
A No, I have not.
Q. Are you able to say what degrees these various

teachers have? A. You mean scholarship degrees?
Q. Yes, M ’am. A. No.
Q. Are you able to rate them as teachers, however?
A. I am.
Mr. Nash: You may ask.

[fol. 752] Cross-Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. In your experience, Miss Griffey, as a supervisor,
how long would you estimate it would take you to accu
rately estimate the teaching ability of an individual teach
er?

A. Well, if I wanted to estimate her according to my
conscientious judgment it would take me, oh, several
visits to her room.

426

Q. About how long would each one of those visits have
to be?

A. Well, they would have to he somewhere around
twenty minutes. Now, there are certain things I can tell
when I enter the room, take me about ten minutes, not
five minutes.

Q. But, Miss, Griffey, what I am trying to do is get it
so you would be willing in your own mind and be satis
fied with your rating of the teacher.

A. Well, I could not judge her under twenty minutes.
Q. Would you not have to visit her more than once?
A. Yes, I would.
Q. Well, would you be willing—strike that—leaving

out the exceptionally good teachers and exceptionally bad
teachers that you fcould tell in five minutes, wouldn’t it
take you about a year before you would be willing to
appraise a teacher’s teaching ability? Don’t you use
[fol. 753] the whole school term for it?

A. Well, I could pass judgment on a teacher, I would
prefer to have the year.

Q. And about how many would be the minimum num
ber of visits before you would be willing to pass judgment
on her?

A. Well, T would pass judgment on her in two visits.
Q. All right. Do you think you could visit a teacher

and in fifteen minutes pass judgment on her?
A. Yes, I could pass judgment, I could estimate her.
Q. Would it be accurate?
A. It would be accurate according to the points on which

I would estimate her.
Q. Would you be able on these points, for all of the

items on rating sheet marked Defendants’ Exhibit No. 1,
could you rate the teacher on all of those items on a fifteen-
minute visit? (Hands to witness).

A. Well, I might not be definite in it. I might not be
accurate in it, but I could estimate her on them. I could
see whether she was or was not doing her job.

Q. I mean, could you, for example, decide what group
she belongs in as to evidence of plans and development of
objective and subject matter of scholarship—each one of
those items?

A. I could very nearly do it.

427

Q. All right. How about development of objectives?
[fol. 754] Wouldn’t it be fair to wait and see the end of
the class?

A. Well, in developing objectives, there are daily objec
tives and there are ultimate objectives. A teacher who
does not have an objective is not a teacher.

Q. How long—go ahead.
A. May I tell you ?
Q. Go right ahead.
A. You can tell in a few minutes whether a teacher has

an objective and you can tell in a very few minutes whether
she is getting that objective over or not.

Q. Well, now, Miss Griffey, have you found in your
experience that you can visit teachers several limes and
find them doing very good one time and very bad the next
time? In other words, don’t teachers have off days?

A. They do.
Q. So if you were in there for a ten or a five-minute,

on an off-day, rating a teacher and never went back, you
would have made a mistake?

A. Oh, yes, I could have.
Q. And very many times you have gone back and find

teachers were very good teachers?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. But they were, in one particular class, might be

falling down or something like that. That happens, does
it not? A. Oh, yes.
[fol. 755] So that taking, suppose, for example, somebody
would tell you to go and rate a teacher for the purpose of
fixing her salary, on that basis alone, wouldn’t you think
you would give her more than fifteen minutes?

A. I am not asked to do that.
Q. I am asking you suppose that did happen. If you

were rating her for that purpose.
A. Well, I might.
Q. Don’t you think you would give her the benefit of

more than one visit?
A. Well, I should think, perhaps, that I should have the

benefit of more than that.
Q. Miss Griffey, do I understand that you do not con

sider any Negro in your elementary schools as efficient as
the least efficient white teacher?

428

A. In comparison with all the points on this, I do not.
Q. You do not? A. No.
Q. So that all of the teachers in any colored school are

inferior teachers ?
A. No, not inferior teachers, but they are inferior in

comparison with the white teachers.
Q. You think every white teacher is better?
A. No, every individual in comparison. I didn’t say

every white teacher, hut I made an individual comparison,
[fol. 756] Q. But as to the comparison you have made,
you have never found one such colored teacher that was
as efficient as the teachers. Is that correct? A. No.

Q. You never have? A. Never have.
Q. You have some very bad white teachers, don’t you,

some inefficient ones ? A. In my department, no.
Q. You do not have any?
A. I have some average and around average teachers,

but I don’t have any below average teachers in my white
teachers.

Q. You have some below average teachers among the
colored teachers? A. I certainly do.

Q. Have you recommended the dismissal of those
teachers ?

A. No, I don’t recommend, and have had white teachers,
over a period of years, below average, but I don’t recom
mend them, but I report that in some points they are below
average.

Q. Does the below average teacher give as much to the
pupil as an average teacher?

A. Well, there is no one teacher that is below average
in everything.
[fol. 757] Q. Is it not true that in your mind a Negro
teacher in this town, that Negro children in this town are
getting inferior education in elementary grades to what
the white children are getting? A. No.

Q. You say the teachers are not as good?
A. Well, they are not as good, in comparison with all

the points, and all the work they do, I don’t think they are
as good.

Q. They use the same course of study? A. They do.
Q. In both the white and colored schools? A. Yes.
Q. And they both follow it as best they can, the white

and the colored teachers? A. Yes.

429

Q. If you were rating Miss Hagler, and I understand
you did rate her? A. I did.

Q. What rating would you give her on that five-column
sheet?

A. Well, some of the points would be in the second and
some would be in the third.

Q. So she would be a little bit less than three?
A. No, she would be some points in three, she would not

[fol. 758] be any one at all.
Q. She would be uniform two or three? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know of any that you rated as four or five?
A. White teachers? No, I do not.
Q. And you rate practically all of the Negro teachers

in that group, don’t you?
A. Yes, four and five, with points in three.
Q. And that’s the result of your visiting these teachers

and your own supervision?
A. That is my results over a period of years, comparing

them with each other individually and comparing
them with the white teachers.

Q. In your rating, do you make your rating on a com
parative basis or individual basis?

A. I made it on an individual comparative basis.
Q. You mean by that, do you, Miss Griffey, that you

compare in rating, for instance, Mrs. Cornelia Bruce, you
would compare her with the white teachers?

A. Yes, I do, and I compare her with the colored teach
ers also.

Q. And that decided what group she fell in?
A. Yes in comparing her individually with white teach

ers.
Q. I am trying to understand what you mean by in

dividual comparative basis. You mean each individual was
[fol. 759] compared with other individuals, both white and
colored?

A. Yes, I compared, for instance, Cornelia Bruce, she is
a IB teacher. I compared Cornelia Bruce with IB teachers
in the colored schools and determined Cornelia Bruce was
my best one B teacher, generally, in the colored schools.

Q. And you think she was?
A. And I think she was.
Q. So in comparing her with teachers in the colored

schools alone, what group would you put her in?

430

A. If I had just compared her in the colored schools, if
I compared Cornelia Bruce with IB teachers in the colored
schools and I was rating only colored school teachers
and making only colored comparison, I would put her in one
in comparison with all other IB teachers.

Q. But when you rate her with IB teachers in the white
schools, she is not in one. Where would she be ?

A. She would be in four with points in three.
Q. Was that the best Negro teacher in IB, with almost

at the end of the list when you compared her with white
teachers? Is it not true that no white teacher in your
mind was below three?

A. No, they had points in three.
Q. Well, did you consider her inferior to all of the white

[fol. 760] IB teachers?
A. Yes, on many points I did.
Q. Be in all? A. In all she does.
Q. She rates lower? A. She does in my judgment.
Q. Is it not true that in recent years you have been

getting Negro teachers for elementary schools from
accredited schools with good background and good teaching
experience and good background in the practice teaching?
Do you consider all of them inferior to all of the white
teachers ?

A. Well, I judge them on the work done, their teaching
ability. I judge them according to the work they did for
me and what contribution they make to the colored chil
dren.

Q. Don’t you think they would make more contribution
to the colored children if they were more efficient?

A. Well, of course, yes.
Q. So that if you got some efficient teachers, you would

be doing a better job for the colored children, wouldn’t you?
A. Yes.

Redirect Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Now, Miss Griffey, state whether or not in comparing
[fol. 761] teachers—strike that, please—State whether or
not in judging teachers or teaching abilities you apply the
same standards for each group? A. I do.

Q. Do you know about how long Miss Hagler has been in
our Public School System? Do you know whether she has
been here a number of years?

431

A. She has been here a number of years.
Q. Has Mrs. Cornelia Bruce been here a number of

years?
A. Yes, a number of years.
Q. Have you bad ample opportunity to observe both of

them? A. I have.
Q. Do you know which teachers come from accredited

schools ?
A. I couldn’t name you them right off, I have a list of

them.
Q. Does that enter into your judgment in trying to

arrive at their teaching abilities?
A. No, it does not, I judge them on their class room pro

cedure, their class room results. I judge on what they do
for these children in these schools.

Q. State whether or not you are in the practice of
comparing your teachers in classes, or do you consider them
on an individual basis?

A. I consider them on individual basis, that would be
the only way I could consider them.

Q. Now, you are talking only about teachers in the first
[fol. 762] three grades. Is that true?

A. That is true.
Q. Do you have all teachers within the first three

grades under your sponsorship? A. I do.
Mr. Nash: That is all.

Recross Examination.
Mr. Marshall: I believe I will ask two more questions.
The Court: All right.

By Mr. Marshall:
Q. I believe you do not have anything to do with recom

mending the salaries? A. I do not.
Q. Prior to this year, have you discussed or have you

had any discussion with Mr. Scobee prior to the time sal
aries are fixed for the next year for the individual teach
ers? A. I have not.

Q. Since the time that Mr. Scobee has been here, you
have never discussed with him, have you, the rating of
teachers as to the question of fixing salaries?

A. I have discussed with him the rating of teachers.

432

[fol. 763] Q. But not in relation to salaries?
A. Not in relation to their salaries.
Q. But on this particular rating that is done this year,

when did you complete that?
A. I completed, I rated it from time to time. You can’t

do that in a day.
Q. I mean the month that it was completed?
A. Well, I think it was in April.
Q. In April? A. I think so.
Q. You are not sure?
A. No. I know it was in the spring.
Q. It was in the spring, and was turned over to Mr.

Scobee later?
A. Yes, before the teachers were elected.
Mr. Marshall: That is all.

Redirect Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. One more question. State whether or not the ques
tion of race or color entered into your ratings?

A. Never has for one single minute.
Mr. Nash: That is all.
The witness was excused.

[fol. 764] Here the Court recessed for five minutes, after
which the Court re-convened pursuant to order for recess.

M rs. L. J. A llison, sworn as a witness on behalf of the
defendants, testified as follows on

Direct Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. State your name and address.
A. 214 Spruce Street.
Q. Are you at present time in the employ of the Little

Rock Public School System? A. I am.
Q. What capacity?
A. Principal of a school and sponsor of the free read

ing.
Q. What teachers do you have under your sponsorship?
A. The white and colored teachers in the free reading

work.
Q. For the schools in the city?

433

A. Correct, elementary, you understand.
Q. From grades four through six? A. Correct.
Q. TV ill you explain what is meant by free reading?
A. By free reading I mean the children each day who

ha\e a period set aside, without supervision, and access
to any books on the shelf, and the books having been very
[fol. 765] carefully chosen.

Q. Does that include library work?
A. It includes library work. You understand these

books have to be very carefully chosen and cared for, and
giaded for selective free courses, of course, according to
the library standards.

Q. How long have you served as sponsor for free read
ing?

A. For the last two or three years, and I served as
sponsor in secondary schools from* 1930 to 1938.

Q. TV ill you please explain what you mean by secondary
schools ?

A. I mean the junior high schools and the senior high
school.

Q. What is your detailed experience, then, in handling
subject matter of free reading?

A. My total experience dates from 1930 as actually a
teacher and sponsor of the work.

Q. And for the last four years you have had the chil
dren in the elementary schools?

A. In the elementary schools.
Q. I mean teachers in the elementary schools.
A. Yes.
Q. As sponsor, state what you did.
A. As sponsor of free reading work, I am supposed to

meet, if I consider it necessary, with the teachers. I am
[fol. 766] expected to help make the list, if I am asked to
do so, I am supposed to advise in any capacity pertaining
to free reading if I am asked to do so, and inspect wherever
I consider it necessary.

Q. State whether or not you are, you wait until you
are asked to do these things before you do it.

A. Some cases I do. I have no set policy about that.
I may visit in a case where I have not been asked.

28—12,887

434

Q. During the time that you have sponsored free read
ing in elementary schools, has it been your practice to visit
class rooms? A. Yes, I visit class rooms.

Q. State whether or not it has been your practice to
meet in groups with teachers.

A. I have met in groups with teachers, yes.
Q. To what extent have you visited class rooms in the

past school year?
A. I visited practically all of the class rooms.
Q. State whether or not you have made rating sheets

for the purpose of rating teachers’ abilities.
A. I have.
Q. Have you discussed these ratings with Mr. Scobee?
A. I have.
Q. When you visit a class room, tell what you do, and

for how long a period do you make a visit?
[fol. 767] A. I stay within, I have no set time to stay
in any class room. When I go in I observe very carefully
to see what kind of books they have, the kind of tools with
which they work, the response of the children, if I have a
chance to see the children, and I discuss the work with
the teacher, and from this conference I am able to de
termine a good deal.

Q. State whether or not you examine the books in use.
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Why?
A. Because this is one of the best indications of the

work that is being done.
Q. State whether or not you examine the books to see

with what care they are handled. A. I do.
Q. Why?
A. Because I think that would be an indication of the

interest and general consideration that the teacher has
for her work.

Q. State whether or not you engage the teacher in con
versation. A. Not always in the class room.

Q. Is it any purpose of your sponsorship to assist
teachers in overcoming their weakness?

A. Well, I would think so, otherwise there would be no
[fol. 768] point in having a sponsor.

Q. State whether or not you do attempt to help them
overcome their weakness?

A. Yes, I try that, too.

435

Q. State whether or not you make an effort to judge
teachers in their handling or recognition of individual dif
ferences of pupils. A. I do.

Q. How important is that in your work?
A. It is the most important thing in it.
Q. How else do you attempt to keep in contact with

your teachers?
A. Telephone conversations and letters.
Q. Do you use bulletins? A. Yes.
Q. Do you use—what is the purpose of telephone con

versations?
A. Well, I get my information more quickly, and it is

closer, keep a little closer to the folks.
Q. State whether or not you are well acquainted pro

fessionally with all teachers within your group.
A. Some better than others.
Q. To the best of your ability, in your best judgment,

who are the best Negro teachers?
A. You mean under my supervision ?

[fol. 769] Q. Under your supervision.
A. I will say Helen Ivey, and L. M. Christophe.
Q. Will you say why they are the best?
A. From the visits I have had, with the evidence of

their interest and their doing the very best every way.

The Court: Raise your voice, Mrs. Allison.
A. Their interest in the work, and what I have seen

indicates they are certainly interested and have done
everything I suggested, the materials I find there indicate,
and I know the wav they are giving more.

Q. If you can do so, give the name of the white teacher
whom you consider least efficient.

A. In my department I think Elizabeth Goetz.
Q. Would you consider her as your least efficient white

teacher? A. I do.
Q. How does she compare with Mr. Christophe and

Miss Ivey? As good or better or below?
A. I think she is better than they are.
Q. You think as a teacher she is inferior? A. I do.
Q. On what basis?
A. On the basis of the things that I mentioned in regard

to Helen Ivey and Christophe. She does not do the things
[fol. 770] pertaining to her work as they do.

436

Q. Is Miss Goetz now in the public school system?
A. From information I have received, not officially.
Q. Is she under your sponsorship?
A. She is not under my sponsorship.
Q. State whether or not you requested her change.
A. I did.
Q. Can you name any other white teacher who would

be next above her in efficiency, next inefficient?
A. Yes, I would say Elizabeth Axley.
Q. Where does she teach?
A. She taught last year at Wilson School.
Q. How did she compare with Christophe and Helen

Ivey in teaching ability?
A. In my particular work?
Q. In your particular work.
A. Not as good as they.
Q. On what basis do you say that?
A. On the basis that I mentioned, their qualifications

and carrying out their duties. She does not measure up as
well as they did.

Q. Do you know whether she is still under your spon
sorship?

Mr. Loughborough: Can you hear the witness, Your
Honor?

The Court: I can’t hear all she says.
[fol. 771] Mr. Loughborough: Speak out loud. The Court
is the one we want to hear, not Mr. Nash. He has already
heard it.

The Court: Yes, speak out loud, Mrs. Allison.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. What is your answer to that question?
A. I believe not.
Q. For the current school year, you mean?
A. Correct.
Q. Mrs. Allison, are you able to name any other white

teacher less efficient than Christophe and Miss Ivey?
A. In my department?
Q. In your department.
A. In my department, no, I do not believe so.
Q. Both Miss Goetz and Miss Axley, I believe. Whom

would you consider next inefficient? A. Mrs. Herd.

437

Q. How would you compare Mrs. Herd with Christophe
and Miss Ivey?

A. Well, I would say that Mrs. Herd has a. good many
years’ work with children, and I would say that L. M.
Christophe and Helen Ivey carry out instructions better.

Q. As an all-around teacher, who would you say was the
best of the three?
[fol. 772] A. I think Mrs. Herd is.

Q. You believe Mrs. Herd is the best of the three?
A. I believe so.
Q. In comparing teachers, state whether or not the

question of race or color has entered into it.
A. Absolutely not.
Q. State whether or not you treat them as individuals

or on a class comparison.
A. Always individuals.
Q. Do you have anything to do with fixing of salaries?
A. I know nothing about salaries of anybody.

Cross-Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Mrs. Allison, is it true that the only teachers you
have been discussing are the teachers in this free read
ing? A. Yes.

Q. So that these are the only teachers you supervise?
A. Correct, except my own school as principal.
Q. Except in your own school? A. That is correct.
Q. Do you make regular visits to the teachers in the

colored schools in the free reading course?
A. Do you mean, may I ask, do I have a regular sched

ule?
Q. That is correct. A. No, I do not.

[fol. 773] Q. Do you, from time to time, visit generally
the free reading courses? A. I try to.

Q. Do you go from time to time?
A. Yes, generally, according to no schedule. I visit

principally when I am called.
Q. Did you visit Bush School prior to May, 1942?
A. I did.
Q. Are you sure? A. Positively.
Q. Have you, yourself, put in any free reading courses

in any of the colored schools? A. No.
Q- In your visits to these Negro Schools, have you

visited the classes when this free reading is going on?

438

A. I have in some, and some I have not.
Q. Is it not true that in most you have not?
A. That is not true.
Q. Well, could you accurately grade a teacher that you

had not visited?
A. I do not rate any teacher that I do not visit.
Q. I thought you said you had not visited some of the

free reading teachers in some of the colored schools.
A. I have one school not visited.
Q. Did you rate those teachers?

[fol. 774] A. I did not.
Q. What school was that? A. The East End School.
Q. East End School?
A. That is correct. However, I had conversations

with the teachers there.
Q. In these rating sheets for the Negro teachers that

you have rated, did you discuss the rating sheets of the
individual with individual principals of their schools?

A. No.
Q. So these ratings, are they rated without consulta

tion with the principal? A. Correct.
Q. Did you discuss them with Mr. Scobee?
A. Yes.'
Q. As individuals, or did you just give him the group

of teachers?
A. I discussed them with him individually.
Q. When was that?
A. Oh, some time near the close of school.
Q. Around the close of school?
A. I can’t remember the date.
Q. Have you rated the teachers during this year?
A. Yes.
Q. Turned the information over to Mr. Scobee?

[fol. 775] A. Yes.
Q. Did you use the same rating sheet used this year?
A. So far as points are concerned.
Q. It had the same points on it that this one has marked

Defendants’ Exhibit No. 1. (Hands to witness)
A. So far as I know, yes. You are talking about this?
Q. All the items on the left-hand side?
A. So far as I can remember. I am not positive about

that because we have had so many different rating sheets
that I couldn’t trust my memory.

439

Q. As a matter of fact, Mrs. Allison, the first time you
saw a sheet like this was May of this year. A. Oh, no.

Q. When was the first time a sheet like Defendants’
Exhibit No. 1 given you?

A. I saw the rating sheet in September, 1941, at our
staff meeting.

Q. Did it look like this one? A. Yes.
Q. And were you told that was to be used this year?
A. We were told it was to be a rating sheet, I pre

sume it would be this year.
Q. And did you rate the teachers during the whole year

or did you just rate them at one period?
A. Will you explain that question?
Q. Did you rate the teachers during the whole year

[fol. 776] as you have seen them or just one visit?
A. I would have to rate them according to what I saw,

whether it was ten visits or one.
Q. I am asking you.
A. I answered the question.
Q. The next question I want to ask you is approxi

mately how many times did you visit the individual Negro
teachers during the year 1942?

A. Sometimes I visited twice, sometimes I visited
once.

Q. How many did you visit twice?
A. I visited two schools twice, as I remember now,

and I visited Bush three times, I believe.
Q. You visited Bush three times?
A. I believe that is right.
Q. Let’s go hack and let’s go down the list. How many

times did you visit Gibbs in the school year 1941-42?
A. Once.
Q. Once? A. Yes.
Q. About how much time did you spend in the teachers’

rooms, the free reading teachers?
A. I stayed about thirty minutes.
Q. Was there only one teacher there teaching it?
A. That’s what they told me. I saw the teacher and I

visited her.
[fol. 777] Q. About thirty minutes? A. That is right.

Q. Was that in the spring of ’42 or fall of ’41, as you
remember ?

440

A. I believe it was in the spring of ’42, as I remember
it.

Q. What about Capitol Hill? A. I visited once.
Q. About how long did you stay there?
A. I visited about, oh, I stayed in the school about

forty-five minutes.
Q. I mean, how much time did you observe the teacher?
A. In the class room?
Q. In the class room.
A. I would say about fifteen minutes.
Q. And you have only been there once?
A. That is correct.
Q. And as to Bush?
A. I spent several hours there one day.
Q. Observing the teacher?
A. I was observing and helping with the work.
Q. Did you work —
A. Pertaining to the free reading.
Q. That is once you have been to Bush?
A. No, I was there more than that, but one day I

spent several hours.
[fol. 778] Q. About how many other times have you
been to Bush?

A. I believe twice, and I wouldn’t be positive. I know
I went there one time.

Q. How about Stephens?
A. Stephens I visited once for about an hour.
Q. Did you observe the teacher the whole time?
A. No, I did not.
Q. About how long did you observe the teacher?
A. I had no chance to observe the teacher. I merely

had to depend upon the conference and looking at the
set-up.

Q. So you had no opportunity to observe the teacher?
A. The teacher, I did.
Q. You rated the teacher in this school?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you observed Arnold? A. Yes.
Q. About how long? A. Probably ten minutes.
Q. How about the East End? A. 1 didn’t visit, no.
Q. At all? A. No.
Q. The South End? A. I spent about thirty minutes,

[fol. 779] Q. Once? A. One time.

441

Q. Was that the spring of this year or fall of last
year? A. I believe it was this spring.

Q. Spring in this year? A. I think so.
Q. And do you remember how long, about?
A. Oh, probably forty minutes.
Q. Observing all the time?
A. No, I was mostly in conference.
Q. Did you observe the teacher there at all?
A. Only Miss Ivey.
Q. Miss Ivey? A. Yes.
Q. About how long?
A. I was with her about forty minutes.
Mr. Marshall: That is all.

Redirect Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Mrs. Allison, is the use of rating sheets something
new to you? A. No.

Q. Have you used them for several years? A. Yes.
[fol. 780] Q. State whether or not in April of this year
this particular rating sheet, your rating was based mere
ly on this year’s knowledge of the teachers or on your
accumulative experience with them.

A. What we have used for some, I think it was based
on this year’s knowledge of them.

Q. Which ones would it be, the new teachers only?
A. No, I couldn’t say that. I had the list of my teachers

before me.
Q. What would you say with reference to these teach

ers with whom you had longer than one year’s experience.
A. Of course, I would have to base my rating on what

I found in the teacher’s room this past year, if my rating
was based on the year’s work.

Q. Would your previous knowledge of the teacher enter
into it any?

A. No, I would not suppose so.
Q. In rating a teacher, did you use the same standards

for the one as for the other? A. Absolutely.
Mr. Nash: No more questions.

The witness was excused.

442

[fol. 781] Miss M a u d e H a y e s , sworn as a witness on be
half of the defendants, testified as follows on

Direct Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Miss Hayes, please speak loud enough for the Court
to hear. Will you give your name and address, too?

A. 1901 Broadway.
Q. In what capacity are you employed by the Little

Rock School Board?
A. I am principal of Centennial School, and for five

years I have been supervisor of art for all the schools,
and the last two years just supervisor of art for all
schools.

Q. When you say all of the schools, do you mean col
ored and the white? A. Yes.

Q. And what schools is it?
A. Fourth, fifth and sixth, doesn’t have anything to

do with the primaries, the junior highs or the senior highs.
Q. Do you have anything to do with the fixing of sal

aries?
A. Not one thing. I don’t even know the salaries, nor

do I know their College training, either.
Q. What do you know about the teachers within your

group ?
A. I know them very thoroughly, because I do a lot of

[fol. 782] visiting, and I know just what they can do.
Q. Tell rather fully what you do, or for the years you

have been the sponsor and for the years you have been
the sponsor since you have been principal.

A. I try hard to go to each school each month, but some
times I do and some times I visit the schools oftener.
The last two years I kept an accurate account on that,
and I have—I think I made a hundred and two visits the
last two years I was supervisor, and every month I held
a meeting with the white teachers, and I very often served
them a little tea and rested them up before they began
their work, and from five to five-thirty I had a demonstra
tion and tried to help them on new mediums I thought
they should be working with, and I held a meeting with
the colored teachers the very same way, and these meet
ings were held at Gibbs School or the Centennial School.

Q. Have you discriminated against them in your visits
or monthly meetings?

443

A. Not at all. Ruth Dudley Jones was very fine in
art. She was a good art teacher, and so many, many after
noons she helped with my demonstrations, and her chil
dren, and showed me how things should be done, and some
times some of the colored teachers would come up, and we
would give them extra help.
[fol. <"83] Q. Before you were a principal, were you also
a teacher? A. Yes.

Q. What subject did you teach?
A. I started in with the fifth grade, and then taught

the sixth grade, and then was junior high principal.
Q. Did you teach art?
A. Yes, and I taught arithmetic. I have taught art

in the fourth, fifth and sixth grades in the schools.
Q. Now, in handling your sponsorship, in what medium

did you condu'ct your work?
A. Well, we sought all the courses for that and tried

the children with many different mediums, frescoing, tem-
pling, graining, etching, soap carving, wood carving, blue
printing, spatter work.

Q. What kind of work? A. Spatter work.
Mr. Loughborough: What kind?
A. Spatter work.

By Mr. Nash:
Q. Spatter? A. Yes.
Q. Any reed work?
A. Raffia reed work, and all the time we are stressing

original work so as to intergrade the art with the aca
demic subjects, and also stressing original work.
[fol. 784] Q. You handle these various subjects with each
group of teachers?

A. You mean at our monthly meetings?
Q. Let me change that question. Did you work with

each teacher in these various mediums?
A. Only at our meetings where we were all together.
Q. And did you say you made visits to the class room

of teachers? A. I did when I was supervisor.
Q. In visiting the class rooms, what did you do?
A. Well, I tried hard to inspire the teacher and to

size up what she was doing and assist her in every way
possible, to see whether the children w’ere interested and
if they were working there was a tension and I would

444

hold private conferences with the teacher over the tele
phone lots of times and lots of times right there, and
I would talk with the principal about what was expected
of me.

Q. Did you try one teacher or sometimes another?
A. As a matter of fact, I tried to work with the teach

ers that didn’t know how to teach right, and I would take
the class and I would sit down with the children and try
to get them to the right solution.

Q. Does the question of race or color enter into it?
A. No, sir, not at all.

[fol. 785] Q. In your monthly meetings, state what
procedure you would follow with reference to the work.

A. Since I have been supervisor or sponsor, we ask
the teacher to bring samples, and each teacher tells what
they have been doing, and I take it over and judge where
they have fallen down or improved it, and most of the
time we have demonstration where we all take a lot of
mediums and work with them.

Q. State whether or not you have prepared rating
sheets of your teachers. A. I did.

Q. State whether or not you have discussed it with Mr.
Scobee. A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you recall when you first saw a rating sheet
like this ?

A. Well, now, I don’t know whether it was a three-
column or five-column, but we had one similar to that with
the same wording early last year, I can’t remember
whether it was Mr. Scobee’s first or second week, but
right around after the school was opened.

The Court: What rating sheet was this?
Mr. Nash: This is Defendants’ Exhibit No. 1.

[fol. 786] Mr. Loughborough: The three-column?
Mr. Nash: No.
Mr. Loughborough: The five-column.
A. I think the first one might have been three-columns,

and they were sent out to all of the grades, both this and
the five-column sent out, and I put it on the bulletin board,
and the teachers all knew what points they were being
rated on.

Q. T\ as the one you saw in the fall of 1941 similar
to the three-column, the second one I submitted?

A. Well, my impression was that all the points here
were the same and there was usually more columns, I
wouldn’t swear to that, I think they wTere.

Q. Miss Hayes, in your best judgment, who among
the colored teachers are the most efficient in your sub
ject?

A. I could tell you the best one, well, I think maybe
Miss White and Mrs. Abner.

Q. You say white or colored teachers?
A. You said colored. Did you mean white?
Q. I meant colored.
A. You said colored, I thought.
Q. Give me their names again.

[fol. 787] A. Miss White and Mrs. Abner.
Q. And was the best? A. Decidedly.
Q. In your best judgment, who are your best colored

teachers?
A. I wrould say Miss S'chropshire, Miss Pope and Mrs.

Littlejohn.
Q. Speak loud enough for the Court to hear you. On

what basis do you say that those three are the best teach
ers?

A. Mrs. Littlejohn is very good on intergrading aca
demic subjects with art, and Miss Pope is good in de
signing work.

Q. What is Miss Schropshire good in?
A. Miss Schropshire is good in paper cutting and

tempering.
Q. Miss Hayes, in your best judgment, who do you con

sider your least efficient white teacher?
A. Well, that is Mrs. Bailey.
Q. Say it loud enough. A. Mrs. Bacon.
Q. How do you spell it? A. B-a-c-o-n.
Q. Who next would you say?
A. Well, of course, I have one this year, she has been

here only three months.
Q. Speaking of the last academic year?
A. Well, perhaps Mrs. Hawle would be.
Q. Are the white teachers you mentioned as good as

[fol. 788] the colored tea'chers, or are they better or
worse?

445

446

A. The last three white teachers I mentioned were
the poorest.

Q. Are they better than the Negro teachers?
A. The white teachers that I mentioned are better.
Q. Are they better than the colored teachers you men

tioned? A. Yes.
Q. Is Mrs. Bacon, in your .judgment, a better teacher

than Miss Schropshire? A. Yes.
Q. In your best judgment, is she a better teacher than,

who is the other colored teacher, Miss Pope?
A. I don’t think I mentioned—yes, Miss Pope.
Q. In your best judgment, is Mrs. Bacon a better teach

er than Miss Pope? A. Yes, she is.
Q. In your best judgment, is Mrs. Bacon a better

teacher than Mrs. Littlejohn? A. Yes.
Q. State whether or not in your best judgment Miss

Schropshire is a better tea'cher than Miss Hawle.
A. No, I think Miss Hawle is a better teacher than

Miss Schropshire.
Q. How? A. She uses more different mediums.

[fol. 789] Q. What difference does that make?
A. A child should be given that many different me

diums so as to test the ones best suited for them.
Q. Will you elaborate on that and explain?
A. Oh, some children can work in one medium and

they should be exposed to many different mediums so as
to find one they can handle.

Q. Do you know of any white teacher in your spon
sorship that is inferior to Miss Schropshire? A. No.

Q. Do you know any white teacher under your spon
sorship who is inferior to Mrs. Littlejohn? A. No.

Mr. Nash: You may ask.

Cross-Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. Miss Hayes, among the colleges that train teachers
for art, is or is it not true that the University of Kansas
ranks up among the high ones in preparing teachers?

A. I am not prepared to say.
Q. Do you know which ones are higher on art teachers?
A. Weil, I expect on the teaching of art I imagine

Kansas would be as good as any of them.

447

Q. Isn’t it—speaking of these demonstrations that you
[fol. 790] have for the teachers where you take individual
teachers and let them give a demonstration lesson to help
other teachers. Is that true ? A. Yes.

Q. So the other teachers can learn something from the
demonstration teachers? A. Yes.

Q. Then you use the teachers in demonstration lessons
before the white teachers? A. I don’t any.

Q. You don’t recall in the last two vears having done
that?

A. I don’t recall, but I had a demonstration school. Oh,
I think maybe what you are talking about, a colored
child did a nice piece of work in designing, two of the
colored children, and several of us went out to see them
do it.

Q. Several of the teachers? A. Yes.
Q. But you wouldn’t consider that a demonstration

lesson?
A. It was just two or three teachers. It wasn’t all of

the department.
Q. Just two or three? A. Yes.
Q. In the last two years, have you visited the colored

art teachers?
[fol. 791] A. I visited some of them.

Q. Have there been some of the Negro schools you
haven’t visited in two years? A. Yes.

Q. How about Bush School?
A. I think I visited because Miss Pope was new there,

and Bush, yes, I was out there, Mr. Christophe asked me
to come out.

Q. Gibbs School. Plave you been there in the last two
years? A. Yes.

Q. About how many times?
A. I don’t know just exactly, perhaps two or three.
Q. You have been out there to observe the art teacher?
A. Yes.
Q. About how many times have you observed her?
A. I don’t know, perhaps two or three. I was in her

room two or three times.
Q. And about how long did you stay each time?
A. Oh, I didn’t time myself. I had the class in art one

time, perhaps twenty or twenty-five minutes, maybe thirty.

448

Q. How many times would you estimate you have ob
served Miss Bacon during the time she has been in the
system ?

A. Well, I could not answer that, so many times.
Q. So many times'?

[fol. 792] A.' Yes.
Q. And Miss Hill?
A. Because she has been here a long time.
Q. How about Miss Hill?
A. I have been there many times.
Q. Many times? A. Yes.
Q. Capitol Hill School, have you been there within the

past two years? A. Yes.
Q. About how long, how many times? A. Twice.
Q. And stay about some fifteen or twenty minutes? _
A. One time I was there much longer, I was there quite

a while. .
Q. Now, going back, the teacher at Gibbs School. Is

that the one, Miss Pope?
A. That’s where Miss Pope is assigned, yes.
Q. And how about the Bush School?
A. I visited it last year.
Q. For about how long?
A. Oh, I don’t know, I will say fifteen, twenty, twenty-

five minutes, something like that, at Mr. Christophe’s invi
tation.

Q. And who is the art teacher there?
A. Mrs. Abner.

[fol. 793] Q. Stephens?
A. I have visited Miss Schropshire lots of times.
Q. Within the past two years?
A. No, but I have seen their work during meetings

within the past two years.
Q. And you put some of your judgment on where you

have seen it? A. Yes.
Q. How about the East End?
A. I have visited it lots of times.
Q. Within the past two years? A. No.
Q. The South End?
A. I was out there once last year.
Q. Once? A. I think I was.
Q. When you mean last year, you mean last school

year?

449

A. Yes, I am not positive about that. I went up past
the school to see some of their decorations. I might not
have visited their school during school hours.

Q. You didn’t observe the teacher?
A. No, I observed the result of her teaching.
Q. Is that an accurate way to judge the teaching abil-

ity, or is that one of the results to be observed1̂
A. The result.

[fol 794] Q. And the work you saw done was completed
work?

A. Y ou see, I see it all of the time, every month. They
bring in specimens of their work.

9 ’ one items you judge them upon?A. By results.
Q. It is? A. Yes.
Q- Then you rated all of these teachers teaching art in

all of these grades ? A. The art I rated.
Q. Did you discuss this rating with the principal of the

Negro schools? A. No.
Q. And about when was that completed?
A. Some time in the spring, I don’t remember when.
Q. About the time it was put in the final form, and

when was that, was that in the spring when you had put
in the final sheet and turned over to Mr. Scobee?

A. Yes.
Q. And you only rated the teachers in what grade?

Art? And rating what grades?
A. Four, five and six.
Q. Four, five and six?
A. Yes, and Centennial.
Q- ̂On this question of the completed work that you

[fol. 795] observed, has it been your experience in the past
that you have found some teachers bring you work of
their best students so they will look best?

A. Naturally, I expect it. I want to see their best.
Q. Do you judge them on that basis of the child’s work?
A. That’s what the teacher is doing. Sometimes I rate

and I ask for a specimen from every child, but I don’t al
ways do that in art.

Q. Which would aid in the rating of the teacher fore
most in your mind, the amount of media they can teach
or whether they teach the matter thoroughly?

29—12,887

450

A. All of it.
Q. You wouldn’t [— ] any of it is more important than

the other? A. It is all important.
Q. You take all that into consideration! A. Yes.
Q. Wouldn’t it be true if you observe more than an

other your judgment might be in favor of the teacher you
observed most?

A. I don’t think I did. I observed them all enough to
know; a great deal of what I was doing.

Q. As a matter of fact, have you been visiting the
white schools in the past few years?

A. Not so very much.
Q. You visited some, haven’t you?

[fol. 796] A. Except on invitation, which is very seldom.
Q. In comparing a teacher that has been teaching quite

some time, from year to year— A. Yes.
Q. And take another very fine teacher, and you ob

served each one. Which teacher would get the higher rat
ing?

A. I did more than observing ten minutes, because I
saw specimens constantly.

Q. Naturally, which would tend to get the higher rat
ing?

A. I don’t know, the one that I thought better.
Q. Would the fact you saw a teacher over and over

again doing good work tend to make you think she is a
better teacher?

A. Not unless her work showed up better.

Redirect Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Taking a comparison of two -colored teachers and
white teachers, what media does Miss Schropshire work?

A. She works in temperal, water color much, glass
work, does some reed work.

Q. And has she -any rating?
A. And colored paper work, cut work, they call it.
Q. Has she any rating? A. Only four.

[fol. 797] Q. And what does Miss Littlejohn work?
A. She works in temperal work.
Q. Anything else?
A. Well, some water colors.
Q. And what does Mrs. Hawle work?

451

A. She works in marionettes, I believe, paper mache
work, and temperal and templet, water colors and paper
mache I think I mentioned.

Q. And what does Mrs. Bacon work?
A. She works in composing and designing and stencil

ing on cloth and painting on cards, poster making for Ju
nior Bed Cross work, I think I said water colors and tem-
p et, and she does quite a bit of wood carving, and they
have a jig-saw, I think, and do a lot of jig-sawing.

Q. In preparing the ratings on your white teachers, do
you consult the principals of their respective schools?

A. Not in art, no.
Mr. Nash: That is all.

Recross Examination.
By Mr. Marshall:

Q. ̂Do you consult them on any of the material on this
that is marked Defendants ’ Exhibit 1 ?

A. Lot in art, not the art teachers.
Q. You didn’t discuss it at all with them?
A. No, not the principals, no.

[fob 798] Mr. Marshall: That is all.
The witness was excused.

V. L. Webb, sworn as a witness on behalf of the defend
ants, testified as follows on

Direct Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Will you state your name, please, and address?
A. Victor L. Webb.
Q. And will you state loud enough?
A. 1514 West 20th, Little Rock.
Q. In what capacity are you employed by the Little

Rock School Board, and for how long?
A. I ’ve been employed by the Little Rock School Board

for thirty-two years, first for three years as Principal of
Mitchell School and twenty-nine years as Principal of
Rightsell School. My beginning as a supervisor is a little
indefinite, we will say about 1919.

Mr. Loughborough: Will you speak a little louder?
A. I thought I was speaking loud enough.

452

Mr. Loughborough: We can’t hear you.

[fol. 799] A. I began supervising social studies, I think,
in 1919, rather informally at first, and I became supervisor
of arithmetic, I think it was, in 1935, and I believe it was
changed, about I think some two or three years ago, it is
now known as sponsors instead of supervisor.

Q. Have you been constantly in a supervisory capacity
since 1919 in social studies? A. Yes.

Q. What do you mean by social studies?
A. History, geography and civics.
Q. History, geography and civics? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In addition, you have had arithmetic for the last

five years? A. Six years, or seven years.
Q. State what you do in your capacity as supervisor or

sponsor.
A. I hold meetings with the departmental teachers, I

send bulletins to them of anything that is of worth to the
teachers, that I think is, and I visit the teachers and visit
the schools and teachers for observation and recommend
books, and such other duties as seem to be a. part of super
vision.

Q. Do you do any demonstration teaching?
A. I very seldom for the reason that I want to see what

the teacher can do. You mean do I do any teaching?
[fol. 800] Q. Yes.

A. Very seldom. I gave that up several years ago.
Q. Do you have all of the teachers in the Little Rock

Public School System under your supervision within your
subject matter?

A. I did have until this year, all those in the elemen
tary schools, both white and colored.

Q. Both white and colored? A. Yes.
Q. And you have under your supervision the grades

from four up through six. Is that true?
A. That is true.
Q. State whether or not you have visited classes.
A. Yes. We had a schedule that we visited classes

practically once a month. Within the last two or three
years, our visiting has not been as regular as it had been,
at least mine hasn’t.

Q. How long a time do you spend in a class room
when you visit them?

453

. A - That varies a great deal. Sometimes for a par
ticular reason the time is anywhere from five to forty
minutes.

Q. What do you do when you visit a class room?
A. I usually go in as quietly as possible so the teacher

will not he disturbed and try to judge what the teacher
is doing and how she is doing it and how the children
[fol. 801] react, and so on.

Q. Do you have any other checks other than your
class visitations? A. Yes.

Q. And what are those?
A. We have had for years, we have had monthly meet

ings and then we many times have conferences, personal
Conferences with the teachers.

Q. Do you have just one monthly meeting for all
teachers, or do you meet in groups? "

A. ̂ Well, that varies. Usually it is just one meeting,
and in the last three years, I believe, it is, the English
sponsor and I have had the meetings together for an
hour and a half.

Q. Do you have such meetings with the colored teach
ers as with the white teachers?

A. Separately, yes, we have the meetings with them
the same way.

Q. Do you discriminate in favor of one as against the
other in holding your meetings?

A. None at all, except I forgot one time, I acknowl
edge that, I just forgot it. I had to apologize most pro
fusely.

Q. Was there any intentional discrimination on race
and color?

A. Oh, no, no, no intentional discrimination.
[fol. 802] Q. Do you have anything to do with the fixing
of salaries? A. Nothing whatever.

Q. Do you know how salaries are fixed? A. I do not.
Q. Do you know whether any of your teachers have

come from accredited colleges? A. I do not.
Q. State whether or not you have prepared rating

sheets for teachers.
A. Yes, I prepared one for my own satisfaction.
Q. I hand you this Exhibit No. 1 and ask you when

you first saw such a rating sheet.

454

A. I couldn’t tell you exactly. It was sometime this
spring of 1942.

Q. You recall any previous discussion based on that
rating sheet?

A. I recall discussions in the superintendent’s meeting
where the staff met with the superintendent.

Q. Do you remember when those discussions were?
A. I do not.
Q. Can you remember whether they were in the fall

of 1941? A. They were bound to be.
Q. Why do you say they were bound to be?
A. Because the superintendent, of course, is, that is

when all of us, everyone discusses it and they instruct us
[fol. 803] in our duties as sponsors or supervisors, and
it would naturally come that way, and every year, for
years, we have had some discussion, I think, from time to
time, about rating sheets, have come out in more the way
of ratings. Nearly every year in some grouping.

Q. State whether or not you ever discussed your teach
ers in conference with Mr. Scobee.

A. Yes. Usually I do not discuss them with him ex
cept as they are, there is some particular thing that is
wrong, don’t you know, with individual teachers.

Q. Do you discuss the good teachers with him?
A. Yes, of Course, as a matter of fact, we think there

is no particular reason for discussing a lot of teachers
because they are doing all right. In discussing with him,
we are asking for advice or for his information.

Q. In making your ratings for these individual teach
ers, state whether you have used the same teaching stand
ards. A. Yes.

Q. Does the question of race or color enter into your
ratings for your teachers?

A. No, it doesn’t. Of course, I am conscious that
some are white and some are colored, but professionally
none whatever.

Q. According to the best of your ability, who do you
think is the best colored teacher in your subjects?
[fol. 804] A. You know, we hesitate about that; of course,
I shall answer the question, as a matter of fact, as a
matter of profession I don’t like to discuss teachers in
public. We just don’t like it, but I will answer the ques
tion under protest, of course, probably.

455

Q. Who is your best colored teacher?
A. (Laughs) Probably Mrs. Caruthers.
Q. Why do you say she is your best teacher?
A. Well, she measures, probably, measures up on all

the points on the rating better than others, than any
others.

Q. How do you judge her in comparison with your
other colored teachers as to all-round teaching?

A. I would say she stands very high in the upper
border.

Q. M ould you say she is about the best you can think
of? A. Yes.

Q. Now, will you tell me who you think your least
efficient white teacher is? A. My least efficient?

Q. Yes.
A. That worries me. (Laughs with an embarrassed

laugh.) Probably, the least efficient, 1941-42—well, two or
three, I might name two or three, I mention under protest.
There was a Miss Thompson at Parham.

Q. Let’s take her first. Was she as good a teacher as
[fol. 805] Mrs. Caruthers, or was she poorer or better?

A. Well, she was better for the reason she was a new
teacher and was sick some of the time.

Q. Were you able to form a complete estimate of her
teaching ability?

A. No, I probably couldn’t. I remember that she made
promise, but when I marked her in 1941-42, I Could not
give her a high rating, I would have to give her a better
rating now.

Q. How would you classify her as a potential teacher?
A. W ell, the fact she is in the same position this year

is evidence that she is considered a good potential teacher.
Q. How do you consider her as a potential teacher?

I mean generally, as a general all-round teacher, good or
bad?

A. W ell, she has poise, and she handles the class with
rather ease and seems to have an insight into the ele
ments of teaching, you see.

Q. Do you think she will make a good teacher?
A. I suppose she will.
Q. Can you name another white teacher, name one of

the least efficient teachers.

456

A. So that was the least efficient. Probably Miss Is-
grig was the least efficient.
[fol. 806] Q. How would you compare Miss Isgrig with
Mrs. Caruthers, good, better or poorer?

A. She was poorer.
Q. On what basis?
A. On several points. She did not seem to be at home

in the grade. She was in the fourth grade. As evidence
of that, I understand she is now in junior high.

Q. Would you say she was teaching out of her class
level?

A. Yes, I would say she was teaching out of her class
level.

Q. Would that make any difference in her teaching-
ability?

A. " Well, it would. A teacher may he inefficient, as I
said, and not familiar with the subject matter and the
methods adopted for that grade or group, that is, she
would be out of her field. She didn’t seem to be at home,
and she was very pleasant, the children liked her, but she
just didn’t get it over.

Q. Is there any other white teacher whose name you
call to mind less efficient than Mrs. Caruthers?

A. (Laughs) Well, there is another one, that was last
year, probably Mrs. Adkins.

Q. Is she still under your sponsorship?
A. No, she has been promoted to junior high.
Q. Was she out of her teaching level?
A. Probably so. It was very difficult to judge her.

[fol. 807] She was not successful and probably that was it.
Q. Can you name any other teacher, white teacher,

who is as inefficient as Mrs. Caruthers?
A. Isn’t that two enough?
Q. If you can’t name any other. A. No.
Q. With the exception of these three, then, would you

say that all other white teachers under your sponsorship
are superior to Mrs. Caruthers?

A. I would rather not deal with groups.
Q. Can you think of any other individual Avhite teacher,

as an individual, who is inferior to Mrs. Caruthers?
A. Not now, I cannot.
Q. How many teachers do you have under your spon

sorship, altogether?

457

A. I believe it is somewhere in the seventies, between,
twenty-five, thirty or forty. I believe it is in the seventies.

Mr. Nash: You may ask.

Cross-Examination.
By Mr. Booker:

Q. Mr. Webb, what studies do you supervise?
A. Social studies and arithmetic.
Q. So'cial studies, including geogranhW

[fol. 808] A. Yes.
Q. History? A. Yes.
Q. And civics? A. Yes.
Q. And also you supervise arithmetic? A. Yes.
Q. Can you state the number of times that you visited

the Negro elementary schools in the past year. 1941—
’40 and ’41?

A. It is difficult to say just how many times.
Q. Have you visited Gibbs School? A. Yes.
Q. Who is the teacher there?
A. Miss Dickey and Miss Anthony and Mrs. Davis.
Q. How long did you stay there?
A. I couldn’t swear to it, but I stayed there a period,

just say thirty to forty minutes.
Q. Approximately? A. Well, twenty to forty.
Q. You mean visited their rooms? A. Oh, no, no.
Q. Thirty or forty minutes in each room?
A. Well, let me try to recall.
Q. How much of your time did you spend in the office

[fol. 809] getting your equilibrium and contact with the
principal?

A. I always went to the office and there probably three
or four minutes.

Q. Now, in your supervision, or your observation, just
which method did you apply with reference to their dif
ferent classifications? The objective or subjective meth
od, as to your supervision. A. Objective.

Q. The objective? A. Yes.
Q. Is that the method that is the least used?
A. That is the better. Of Course, I have had subjective,

too.
Q. In the results obtained, there are times when the

subjective method was necessary? A. Yes.

458

Q. Now, in your meetings with your teachers, did you
differentiate between those two methods, the objective
and subjective ?

A. Not consciously, of Course. We observe these things
and then go ahead.

Q. Did you pass out any data on them in the meeting?
A. Yes, I have. We have in the meetings bulletins and

something that some teacher has done, and I put it in the
bulletin, and that is passed out.

Q. Now, how many times do you recall having gone to
[fol. 810] Capitol Hill? A. Capitol Hill?

Q. Yes.
A. I believe I was there three times this last year.
Q. At the South End? A. I believe it was twice.
Q. Twice? A. Yes.
Q. The East End?
A. I believe I was there once. I believe twice, that is.
Q. I beg your pardon. How many times did you go

to the Robert E. Lee School?
A. The Robert E. Lee School?
Q. Yes.
A. This last year I was there only, I believe I was

there only one time.
Q. One time? A. Yes.
Q. How many times did you go to Parham?
A. To Parham ?
Q. Yes. A. Last year?
Q. Yes.
A. I was there three or four times, because of this

young teacher.
Q. And how many times did you go to Garland?

[fol. 811] A. Well, if you want the exact statement, I
could not give them.

Q. Sir?
A. I just can’t remember.
Q. What I am trying to get at is relative to how many

times did you go to the white and Negro schools.
A. An equal number.
Q1. An equal number? A. Yes.
Q. I believe you say you forgot one meeting one after

noon? A. That was a meeting with the department.
Q. A departmental meeting? A. Yes.
Q. Of the Negro teachers under your supervision?

459

A. Yes.
Q. On this valuation that you refer to on the sheet,

valuation, I believe it is, exhibited by the defendants. Did
you state you had made a valuation on a sheet of that type?

A. The five-column, not three?
Q. The five-column. A. Yes.
Q. Defendants’ Exhibit No. 1, you did make a valua

tion? A. Yes.
Q. Or appraisal on that?

[fol. 812] A. Yes.
Q. Of the Negro teachers? A. Yes.
Q. When did you make that?
A. The spring of 1942.
Q. When were you handed the paper for the purpose

of appraisal ? A. In the spring of 1942.
Q. Now, when you observed these Negro teachers, did

you make any memorandum as to their relative standing,
or did you keep that in your mind?

A. Not every time.
Q. Some of it [your] kept in your mind?
A. Sometimes, yes.
Q. From your mental reservoir you drew and made

your appraisal on this five sheet?
A. Five columns, at every meeting and every con

ference and to my very best knowledge. Most of these
teachers I have visited and observed for years.

Q. Most of it was from your mental reservoir?
A. Yes.
Q. And you admit you forgot one meeting you had

with them? A. Yes.
Q. So that your mental reservoir probably wouldn’t

be a thorough type of evaluation?
[fol. 813] A. The same as everybody else.

Q. I didn’t understand the school Miss Isgrig was
from, inasmuch as you didn’t like to call names so much.

A. Woodruff.
Q. How long has she been in the system?
A. She entered in the fall of 1941.
Q. She Avas a new teacher?
A. She Avas a n e A V teacher.
Q. You say she didn’t do so Avell? A. No.
Q. And Miss Thomas was also a neAV teacher?

460

A. Yes.
Q. And she didn’t do so well? A. No.
Q. Then, it is your impression that the longer they

are in the system the better they become?
A. Probably so, not always. There are teachers that

have been teaching now for a long time that are no better
than when they started.

Q'. In your supervisory meeting, don’t you take up all
these points in which they are in arrear or they lack in
formation?

A. Yes, and I try to remove these in making up the
subjects for discussion at that meeting. It may not be
something in arrears. It may be something that is extra
[fol. 814] fine. I like to be optimistic, you see. Then some
times there is something new that needs to he put over and
do that through the telling them about it or by reading
it or by having a discussion of it or by having a demonstra
tion of something of that sort.

Q. Then, for the purpose of evaluation, do you say now
that you have some colored teachers who are as good as
the white?

A. No, under protest, I say I do not like to compare
them, either colored by color or color by white or color
against each other.

Q. A moment ago in your direct examination, I be
lieve you say while you did not make a differentiation, you
are conscious of it? A. I couldn’t help but be.

Q. That is right.
A. And that is all.
Q. In your evaluation, are you conscious of the fact

these teachers are colored? A. No.
Q. In evaluating them? A. No, sir.
Q. You make evaluation at the time you make the

notes?
A. No, I don’t sit right down while that teacher is

teaching, that wouldn’t be good teaching.
[fol. 815] Q. When was it you had your first conference
with Mr. Scobee about these rating sheets?

A. That Avas in the spring of 1942.
Q. Spring of 1942?
A. The actual appraisal was in the spring of ’42.
Q. The actual appraisal Avas in the spring of ’42?
A. Yes, that is as usual, the usual custom.

461

Q. Now, as to the rating of teachers, you have how
many teachers in your school? A. Twelve.

Q. Twelve teachers? A. I did.
Q. You rated your own teachers?. A. I did.
Q. Was anybody else in conference?
A. Not at all.
Q. And you made the report to Mr. Scobee?
A. No.
Q. Did any sponsor assist you?
A. No, only informal many times the sponsor might

drop by and talk with me about a teacher.
Q. You rated the Negro elementary schools just' like

you did any other elementarv school?
A. Yes/
Q. By comparison?

[fol. 816] A. Yes.
Q. It is all about the same? A. Yes.
Q. In these meetings that you have, Mr. Webb, with

the teachers, do you find the response very fine or not
generally?

A. I don’t want to compare the two groups.
Q. You would rather not?
A. I don’t want to do that.
Q. Just generally, what is the response?
A. Of whom?
Q. Of your teachers under your supervision, colored

and white?
A. Well generally speaking the response is very good.
Q. Where you find anything deficient, do you correct

that teacher on it?
A. You mean in the meeting?
Q. No, no, I don’t mean in the meeting. Do you cor

rect the teacher privately out of the meeting?
A. On something that happened in the meeting? No.
Q. Following your visitation?
A. Yes, sometimes I do. As evidence of that I do, I

had a little card I made out for my own work which I
carried with me.

Q. You know whether or not any of the other super- ■
[fol. 817] visors had some of these or not?

A. I don’t know. I believe some of the others did have.
Q. But this is yours? A. That is mine.
Q. Is it simply a self-made sheet, rating sheet?

462

A. In general.
Q. Did you prepare the self-improving rating sheet

that was here yesterday?
A. That we had here? I would not be sure.
Mr. Booker: That is all.

Redirect Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. You say you prepared this self-improving sheet
yourself? A. Yes, sir.

Q. During what period of time have you been using
such improvement sheets?

A. Oh, some seven or eight or ten years.
Q. We offer it in testimony as Defendants’ Exhibit No.

9 since it has been used—
(The above card marked Defendants’ Exhibit No. 9)
Mr. Booker: Just a second. If the Court please, we desire

to interpose an objection to the introduction of this on
the ground that it is immaterial to this case. It doesn’t
[fol. 818] bear the name of any particular teacher, it
doesn’t purport to be an evaluation of the capability of
any particular teacher, and is, therefore, not germane to
the issues in this case.

Mr. Nash: May it please the Court, Mr. Booker intro
duced this himself. He brought it out.

Mr. Booker: No, I didn’t introduce it.
Mr. Nash: You brought it out in the questioning.of the

witness, and we might as well put it in evidence.
The Court: Well, it can be introduced for the purpose

of showing it had been made, it is just a blank form now,
and he may introduce it for the purpose of showing it had
been used and furnished for that purpose.

Mr. Nash: That is the only purpose for which we are
asking to introduce it.

The Court: For that period of time. He said he had
had it for how long?

Mr. Loughborough: Seven or eight years.
A. Probably ten years, I couldn’t be sure about that.

463

[fol. 819] By Mr. Nash:
Q. You are the principal of a white elementary school?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have in your school a teacher by the name

of Elizabeth Goetz? A. Yes.
Q. Is she here now? A. No.
Q. State whether or not you recommended her transfer.
A. Yes.
Q. Are you willing to state why?
A. I don’t like to do that, Mr. Nash, she just wasn’t

filling the job is all.
Mr. Nash: I believe that is all.

Recross Examination.
By Mr. Booker:

Q. You have not recommended the transfer of any
Negro teacher at all?

A. That’s not in my providence. This is in my school.
Q. As supervisor, wouldn’t you have authority to

recommend transfer or dismissals?
A. Very, very, very seldom. I have had, though.
Q. You have done so as to Negro teachers?
A. Not recently, I have in the past, though.

[fol. 820] Mr. Booker: That is all.
The witness was excused.

Here being the hour for the noon recess, the Court was
recessed until 2 :00 o ’clock, at which time it re-convened
pursuant to order for recess.

H. W . Means, sworn as a witness on behalf of the de
fendants, testified as follows on

Direct Examination.
By Mr. Nash:

Q. Will you please state your full name and address?
A. 520 North Oak Street.
Q. State whether you are at the present in the employ

of the Little Rock School Board and, if so, for how long
and in what capacity.

A. I am, thirty-two years, Principal of Peabody and
sponsor for the language arts, that is the spelling and
reading, to be specific.

464

Q. How long have you been a sponsor?
A. I have been sponsor all these years, for these spe

cific subjects, possibly three years.
Q. And will you specify the particular subjects of

which you are now sponsor?
[fob 821] A. Reading and language and spelling.

Q. Three subjects? A. Three subjects.
Q. What teachers are [—] including under your spon

sorship and in what schools?
A. All of the white and colored schools, elementary

grades, four, five and six.
Q. As a sponsor, state what you do.
A. As a sponsor, it is my duty to keep the course of

study revised to meet changing conditions, to attempt to
keep the teachers indirectly or directly apprised of chang
ing theories and practice in education as pertains to these
particular subjects for which I am responsible, and to
try, when called upon, to help the teachers solve their
specific problems as they arise in connection with the work.
In other words, to stand ready at all times to improve the
instructional work of this particular department, generally
speaking.

Q. Will you state how you go about doing that work?
A. Well, in course revision we have a new language

book this year. It was necessary to appoint a committee
or various committees to confer with me in the adoption of
the new practices as they were found in the new English
book different from the one we are now using. This has
been our committee work through telephone conversations,
[fol. 822] through personal conference, and a meeting
and a bulletin, instruction bulletin, and different ways of
various kinds.

Q. Do you meet with your teachers?
A. I do.
Q. How often do you meet with them?
A. You mean the department as a whole?
Q. Yes.
A. I am not sure but that we met with the colored

teachers last year only twice. I met with the white teach
ers, I think, five times. I had more meetings scheduled
than that, but they were called off, and I think everybody
agreed to it.

i*-

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