Letter from Counsel to Amato RE: Meeting with Sheff Lawyers

    IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF ALABAMA 

NORTHERN DIVISION

Gardenia White, et al, :*9
Plaintiffs, J

*+
United States of America, by :
Nicholas deB, Katzenbach, :
Attorney General of the i
United States, *

*
Plaintiff-Intervenor, :

«■

vs J
9*

Bruce Crook, Henry Barganier, and i
J, H. Jackson, as members of the :
Jury Commission of Lowndes County, I
Alabama, et al, I•

Defendants.. :

Civil Action 
No. 2263-N.

Before: Hon, Richard T. Rives, U, S. Circuit Judge;
Hon, Frank M » . Johnson, Jr., U# S. District

Judge; and
Hon, Clarence W. Allgood, U« S, District Judge 

At: Montgomery, Alabama, November 26, 1965.

Glynn Henderson, 
Official Court

Reporter,



11DEX « Witnesses
Bir® Grs. Red

Plaintiffsf Witnesses
James Brae© Crook XI 26 28
T« Werth Tfoagard 34 40 44* T t

Henry Bargg&nier 50 59 60
John H® Jackson 61 68 69
Kelly Golaaan 75 96 99
Lillian 3. McGill 103
John HuXett 110
Henri A* Stines 11? 120

United States* Witnesses

Harrell Ham&oiids 128

William 3* Bradley 137 141
William Cosby 142 146 146

Defendants* Witnesses 
Hone*

E@c®

49



INDEX - Exhibits
Plaintiffgf Exhibits

1 - Alabama Directory, 1965*

2 - HOT ADMITTED - Deposition of Dr. Robert Coles.

3 - HOT ADMITTED - Deposition of John F. Kraft.

United States* Exhibits

1 » Cards currently in jury box*

2 - Current jury roll.

3 - Jury roll, 1953-1965.
4 - Jury roll, Fall 1939-Fall 1945®

5 - Civil Minute Book, 9-2-53 - 4-1-64.
6 - Gixdl Minute Book, 2-13-23 - 3-23-53*
7 - State Minute Book, 3-17-52 - 4-17-64.

8 - State Minute Book, 10-5-36 - 9-I7-51,

9-A - Minutes of Jury Commission, 11-15-09 - 6-18-39.
9~B - Notice to Jury Cosaaissiom, 2-18-13*

10

11

12

13

14

- Mm@s of registered voters, 1932-1933, 1935-1948, 195O-196O.
- Alphabetical poll lists, 1931-1947, 1959-1965.

Current registration list and poll tax record,*

Yenire lists, Spring 1964, Spring' & Fall 1965*

Qualified voters lists, 1932, 1934, 1935, 1936, 1939, 1940, 
1944, 1945, 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950, 1952, 1954, 1955, 
1956, 1957, I960, 1961* 1962 1963 1964I

15 - Registration books, 1950-1952, 1952-1953, 1955-1959, 1960-1963.

16 - Poll tax lists, 1932(1931-19361, 1937 (1937-1947), 1948(1948“
1958), 1958 (1959-1965).



If©EZ - Exhibits (cont*d)
United States* Exhibits (eoatfd)
IS' - Cumulative poll cards*

19 - Current Tax Assessors List#

20 - Lowndes County Signal for years 1951, 1953, 1959®
21 - Miscellaneous poll cards*

22 - ¥snira lists, Fall 1964*

23 - MOT AffilTTEB - 245 applications to register to vote to
federal exminers, 8-9-65 - d-26-65*

24 - Deposition of M. E# Marietta#

25 - List of persons identified by race*



IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF ALABAMA 

NORTHERN DIVISION

Gardenia White, Jesse ¥. Favor,
John Hulett, Lillian S. McGill, 
Willie Mae Strickland, The 
Episcopal Society for Cultural and 
Racial Unity, a corporation. The 
Rev. John-B. Morris, The Rev* Henri 
A. Stines, The'Rev* Albert R, . 
Dreisbach, Jr*, and The Rev. Malcolm 
Boyd, for-themselves, jointly and 
severally, and for-all other'’ 
similarly situated,

Plaintiffs,
United "States of America, by 
Nicholas deB. Katzenbach,
Attorney General of the United 
States,

Plai ntiff-Intervenor,
vs

Bruce Crook, Henry Barganier, and 
J. H. Jackson, as members of the • 
Jury Commission of Lowndes County, 
Alabama, and Carlton Perdue, as 
County Solicitor of Lowndes County, 
Alabama| Harrell Hammonds, as 
Judge of Probate of Lowndes •
County, Alabama, C. F. Ryals, as 
Sheriff of Lowndes-County, Alabama, 
W. E* Harrell, Jr., as Foreman of 
the Grand Jury of Lowndes-County, 
Alabama, T. Werth Thagard, as Judge 
of the Second Judicial Circuit of 
Alabama (Lowndes Comity), Arthur 
E. Gamble, Jr., as Solicitor of 
the Second Judicial Circuit of 
Alabama (Lowndes Comity), M. E* 
Marietta, as Clark of the Second 
Judicial Circuit of Alabama (Lowndes 
County), and Mrs. Kelly Coleman, 
Clerk of the Circuit Court of 
Lowndes County, Alabama, and Clerk 
of the Jury Commission of Lowndes 
County, Alabama,

Defendants.

85
©

&©

Civil Action 

No. 2263-N.

c> # e



Before: Hon. Richard T. Rives, U. S. Circuit Judge?
Hon. Frank M. Johnson, Jr., U. S. District

Judge; and
Hon. Clarence W» Allgood, U. S. District Judge. 

At: Montgomery, Alabama, November 26, 1965®

A p p e a r a n c e s :
For Plaintiffs: Charles Morgan, Jr.,

Orzell Billingsley, Jr., 
Dorothy Kenyon, and 
Ruby Burrows.

For United States: Ben Hardeman, U. 8* Attorney,
John Doar, and 
Charles R. lesson.

For Lowndes County Juicy Commission and 
Mrs. Kelly Coleman:

Richmond M. Flowers, 
Robert P* Bradley, and 
Leslie Hall.

For All Other Defendants except M. E. Marietta:
Harry Cole and - 
John R. Matthews, Jr*

{The above-styled case coming on for hearing at 

Montgomery, Alabama, November 26, 1965, before the above-constitute 

Court, the following proceedings were had:}
JUDGE RIVES: Gentlemen, we call the case of Garden!

White and others, plaintiffs, United States of America as plaintiff 

intervener, against Bruce Crook and others, defendants. I call the 
case for trial on the merits, with the understanding that the



various motions filed will be taken with the case, without any 

prejudice to any of the movants by their being taken with the case* 

Insofar as the demand for jury trial is concerned, it will be 

considered before the feature of the case demanding damages by the 

original plaintiffs is reached, if that feature ~  if it is reached; 
but the other motions are taken with the case completely* First, 

have the counsel already entered their appearances in the case?

MR. MORGAN: No, sir; your honor I would like to
introduce to the Court Judge Dorothy Kenyon. She is a member of the 

bar of New York, a member of the District Court bar there, a member 

of the bar of the Supreme Court of the United States, and was first 

United States representative on the United Nations Commission on the 
Status of Women, appointed by President Truman. She would like to 

appear in this Court. And I would like to introduce her to the 
Court.

JUDGE RIVES: Happy for her to be here; we are happy
to have you with us.

MISS KENYONS Thank you very much, your honor.

JUDGE RIVES: Will you enter the appearances, the
attorneys appearing for the original plaintiffs.

MR. MORGAN: Secondly, Miss Ruby N. Burrows,

B-U-R-R-O-W-S; she is a member of the Florida bar, was the first 
Negro Florida ~~ Floridian admitted to that bar, graduate of the 
Howard University School of Law and Talladega College here in 
Alabama.



4

JUDGE RIVESs Happy to have you with us*

MR. MORGAN! Second, your honor, with respect to the 
question of damages and injuries, we do have an amendment we would 

like to offer to the ■—  a motion to amend the complaint, present 

to the Court; a memorandum which has been provided the other parties 

regarding the definition of some terms of Alabama law that we would 

also like to present to the Court* We have extra copies, I will pass 
them up, if 1 might,

JUDGE RJTE8! I presume your opponents already have 
copies of these?

MR. MORGANS Yes, sir; they do.

JUDGE RITES* Have you all seen these?
JUDGE JOHNSON* I haven * t seen it*

JUDGE RITESs Do you have more than one, one copy?
MR* MORGAN! Yes, sir; I have just passed them up,
(A conference was had by the Court)

JUDGE RIVES# Unless there is seme objection, the 
amendment to the complaint will bo allowed* I presume there is 

none, and that, as I understand it, deletes the demand for «—  for 
damages by the plaintiffs.

MR. MORGANS Yes, sir; it does, adding certain other 
constitutional provisions as authority, and additional party that 

I —  additional party, you will recall previously in the case, I 
moved to enter orally.



JUDGE RIVES: Have you entered all of the appearances

for the original plaintiffs?

MR, MORGAN; Yes, sir,

JUDGE RIVES: All right, we will ask for the

appearances for the intervener plaintiff, plaintiff-infcervenor.

MR* DOARs Your honor, on behalf of the United States 
Mr* Hardeman, the United States Attorney, Mr, Hasson, and myself, Mr 
Boar, appearing for the Government.

JUDGE RIVES: And appearances for the defendants?

MR* HALL: On behalf of the defendants, the members

of the Jury Commission and the Clerk of the Jury Commission, Mr* 

Richmond M. Flowers, the Attorney General of Alabama, Mr* Robert P* 

Bradley, Assistant Attorney General of Alabama, and myself, Mr. 

Leslie Hall, Assistant Attorney General of Alabama,
MR.* COLE: In behalf of the other defendants, Carlton

Perdue, as County Solicitor, Harrell Hammonds, as Judge of Probate, 

G. A. —  C. F. Ryals, as Sheriff, ¥* E. Harrell, Jr., as Foreman of 

the Grand Jury, Judge T. Werth Thagard, as Circuit Judge, and 

Arthur Gamble, John R. Matthews and Harry Cole*

JUDGE RIVES: Are there any other appearances to be
entered, gentlemen? If not, I would not think it necessary, hardly, 

to have an opening statement In this case. The issues are pretty 
well set forth in the pleadings, and the part-—  the Judges have all 

had an opportunity to read the pleadings. We call on the original 

plaintiffs, unless some of you have something you want to say in the



6

meanwhile, we will call on the original plaintiffs to introduce such 
evidence as they wish —

MR* MORGAN^ We would ask to invoke the rule, your
honor.

JUDGE RIVES: Beg your pardon?

MR* MORGANS We would ask to invoke the rule with 

respect to witnesses.

MR. HALLs We join in that request.

JUDGE RIVESs All right. Well, there are a number 
of witnesses in here ready to be sworn.

MR. MORGAN; 1 am sure there are, sir; yes*

JUDGE RIVESs Will all the witnesses in the case come 

around to be sworn. You gentlemen want to call your witnesses, or 
maybe they understand who are witnesses,

MR, MORGAN: I think they do, yesj ours do*

JUDGE RIVES; All the witnesses for the plaintiffs —  
MR. MORGAN; All plaintiffs¥ witnesses.
JUDGE RIVES; —  all witnesses for the defendants. 

MARSHAL: All witnesses who intend to testify, come
around,

JUDGE RIVES; Come around and be sworn.

MARSHAL: Come around this way, please.

MR. HALL; The parties, too, your honor?

JUDGE RIVES; Well, the parties may be sworn.
MR* MORGAN; Might swear the parties, too,



7

JUDGE RIVES? All who are to testify. Mr. Clerk, 
will you administer the oath, please.

THE CLERKs Yes, sir. All witnesses, please raise 
your right hand. You and each of you do solemnly swear or affirm 

that the testimony you give in this cause to be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God.

JUDGE RIVES! Wait just a moment now, please*
(A conference was had by the Court)

JUDGE RIVES* Now, gentlemen, you understand by being 
under the rule, it means that all witnesses will stair out of the 

court room while the testimony is being taken, you will not hear the 

testimony, that you will —  after you testify will not discuss your 

testimony with any of the other witnesses, that the witnesses who 

have not testified will not ask questions of the witnesses who have 

testified, and that any of the witnesses in discussing your testimony 
with the lawyers will discuss testimony not in the presence of 

witnesses who have already testified, or in the presence of each 
other, but by yourself with the lawyers, you will discuss your 
testimony separately with the lawyers. Is there any other 

instructions about the rule the parties would wish made?

MR* MORGANS (Shook head to indicate negative reply) 
JUDGE RIVES! It will be necessary to exclude the 

witnesses from the court room; there is a room here on the left of 
the Court *»~

MARSHAL! We have twenty-six in here.



a

JUDGE RIVES t How is that?

MARSHAL: It will hold twenty-six now.

JUDGE RIVES; I couldn’t hear you?

MARSHAL; Twenty-six witnesses.

JUDGE ilLLGGOD: Hold twenty-six.

JUDGE RIVES: It will hold about twenty-six?
MARSHALS les, sir.

JUDGE RIVES; Uh, huh5 well, as many of the witnesses 

for the plaintiffs as can, this room will hold about twenty-six 

witnesses, will go in there. The other witnesses will have to —  

other witnesses for the plaintiffs would go in the other witness 
roam as far as you can.

MR. MORGAN: lour honor, the plaintiffs intend to
call parties to the case as plaintiffs’ witnesses; the other 
witnesses, I think, would be termed 'witnesses for the defense that 
we will call*

JUDGE RIVES; The —  you mean the plaintiff —  the 

plaintiff has only the parties as witnesses?

MR. MORGAN: It is our present intention to produce

only those who are parties to the case as our witnesses*

JUDGE RIVES: The rule doesn’t —

MR. MORGAN: We may call —

JUDGE RIVES; The rule doesn’t apply to persons who 

are parties to the case, even though you are witnesses, you may 

remain out, those who are parties to the case may be in the court



9

room. Now, there are some —  some witnesses for the intervener 

plaintiff who —  are there not, Mr. —

MR. DOAR: ires, your honor| there are a number of
witnesses.

JUDGE RITES: The witnesses for the intervener

plaintiff, then, and for the plaintiffs, as far as they can, go in 
the court room —  in the witness room on the left.

MARSHAL; The plaintiffs1 witnesses, come this way.

JUDGE RITES: The other witnesses for the defendants,
others, go in the witness room on the right. If you don’t have 

enough room, we will have to ask some of you to stay in the hall.
If it gets too crowded, you gentlemen go over on this right side.

(Witnesses left the court roora)

JUDGE RITES: All right, gentlemen, will the

plaintiffs proceed with the evidence.

MR. MORGAN; Yes, sir. First we would like to call 

Bruce Crook, and he will be examined by Mr. Billingsley.

MR. BILLINGSLEY; If your honor please, before we 
call Mr. Crook, I would like to put into the record the United States 

Census Population for i960, for the respondents, the defendants, 
this is the United States Census of Population, I960, Alabama 

General Population Characteristics, and I want to put —  want to 

put in the population for Lowndes County, Alabama. The total 

population is seven thousand, twenty-two. The male population is



10

three thousand, one seventy-one. The female population is three 

thousand, eight hundred fifty-one. The white male population is 
eight eighty-nine. The non —  the female population, white, one 

thousand, eleven. The non-white population, male, is two thousand, 

two eighty-two, and the female population is two thousand, eight 
hundred forty. The total population is eight thousand, five sixty- 
nine.

JUDGE RIVES; All right, Mr. Billingsley. Of course, 
the Court takes judicial notice of the census report.

MR. BILLINGSLEY; Yes, sirs I understand? all right,
sir.

JUDGE RIVES; If there are any other figures that 
any of the parties care to refer to in it, they may be referred to 
without being introduced in evidence.

MR. BILLINGSLEY: All rights thank you very much,
your honor, We would now like to call Mr. Bruce Crook, and, your 
honors, we want to —  well, we invoke Rule 43(b), Federal Rules of 

Civil Procedure, on all the witnesses, court officials, State 
officials, or City officials from Lowndes County,

JUDGE RIVES; You ask to examine them as adverse
witnesses?

MR. BILLIIIGSLEY* Yes, sir*

JUDGE RIVES*. Unless there is objection, that will
be permitted.

MR. BILLIIIGSLEY: All right, sir; thank you. Mr,
Bruce Crook.



11

THE CLERKS PlaintIff-Intervenor*s Exhibits 1 through 
12 have been marked for identification.

JAMES BRUCE CROOK, a Defendant, called as witness by the Plaintiffs, 

having been duly sworn or affirmed, testified as follows;

DIRECT EXAMINATION:
BY MR. BILLINGSLEY;

Q Will you state your name for the Court, please?
A James Bruce Crook.

JUDGE RIVES; You may be seated, Mr. Crook.
WITNESS; Thank you, sir.

Q And where do you live, Mr. Crook?
A Fostoria, Alabama, Lowndes County.

Q I see. And how long you been a resident of Lowndes County?
A All my life.

Q All your life; and how old are you?

A Forty-four years old.

Q Forty-four years of age?

A (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)

Q And what is your occupation?
A Farmer, cattleman.

Q Do you have another occupation?
A No.

Q X see. You are a member of the Jury Commission of Lowndes 
Comity, Alabama, are you not?



12

A I am,

Q And how long have you been a member of the Jury Commission of 

Lowndes County, Alabama?

A That 1 can’t answer*

Q Can you give us your best judgment?

A 1 would say eight years.

Q Eight years. So that would mean that you a member of —  became 
a member of the Jury Commission in 1957?

A If that is the number of years that eight would be, I would 
say —

Q Who appointed you as a member of Jury Commission?

A Governor Folsom.

Q. Governor Folsom?

A Uh, huh,

Q I see. Was that done at the first, second, or third ~~ I mean 

the first year in office, second year in office,,, or third year 
in office?

A I couldn’t answer that; I wouldn’t know.

Q Do you know who recommended you?
A I do not.

Q. Who is the Chairman of the Jury Commission?
A Mr* Jackson.

Q Mr. Jackson is the Chairman?

A (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)

Q Do you know how long Mr. Jackson has been a member of the Jury



13

Commission?

A 1 don’t| he was on, the Commission when I was appointed; I do 
not know,

Q Bo you know when Mr, Jackson took the Jury Commission?
A I do not,

Q What is the name of other members of the Jury Commission?
A Mr. Barganier.

Q Mr. who?

A Mr. Barganier,

Q Do you —  do you know how long he has been a member of the Jury 
Commission?

A I do not.

Q Was he a member of the Jury Commission when you were appointed? 
A That I couldn’t answer; I ~

Q You don’t remember that?
A I don’t —  no.

Q Do you know any other persons in Lowndes County who have served 
as Jury Commissioners?

A I do not.

Q Do you know the name of the Clerk of the Jury Commission?
A Do 1 know the name of the Clerk?

G The Clerk of the Jury Commission?
A Yeah, I know it.

Q Who is the Clerk?
A Mrs, Coleman.



14

Q 1 see* How long has she been Clerk of the Jury Commission?

A I don’t know that now.

Q You don’t remember that?

A Huh, uh.
Q Do you ~~ who was the Clerk of the Jury Commission before Mrs. 

Coleman?
A Mr * Marietta.
Q I see. And do you remember when he terminated, or when his 

position was terminated as Clerk of the Jury Commission?

A Mo, I couldn’t tell you.

Q Mas it last year?
A 1 couldn’t tell you the date; I sure couldn’t.
Q Was it last year or this year?
A 1 would think it was this year; I would —  I just don’t know.

Q Uh, huh; you know Mr. —  firs. Coleman very well, do you not?

A I know her when 1 see her; yes, sir.

Q And you have known her for a number of years?

A Clodded to indicate affirmative reply)

Q And you know Mr. ~  the gentleman who was the Clerk of the Jury 

Commission, too, don’t you?
A I do*

Q And you have known him for a long time?
A I have.

Q Do you know Judge TAGGARD?
A Beg your pardon?



15

Q Judge TAC-GAED?
A Judge who?

Q TAGGARD?
A Taggard?

Q Yes?

JUDGE RIVES: Judge Werth Thagard.
JUDGE ALLGOOD: Judge Thagard*

A I know Judge Thagard, yes.

Q How long hare you known him?

A Oh, ten years#

Q You know Mr. Garable?
A I do.

Q You know Mr. Harrell?
A I do,

JUDGE RIVES: Now, Counselor, lefc?s move along;
whether he knows all these various people is not too material: let’s 
get on to the issues as fast as we can.

MR. BILLINGSLEY: Yes, I am,

Q Mr. Crook, you — * you have helped to prepare the jury roll in 
Lowndes County, have you not?

A I have.

Q Along with the other Jury Commissioners and Clerk of the Court?
A I have.

Q Will you tell us the methods that are used to place names on the 
jury roll?



16

A The method that we have used?

Q Yes?

A We have taken our voting list and got sane names from it; we 

have also went out in our com-— - beats and collected names from 

the people that were eligible to serve as jurymens; and that 

is the way we have collected our —  filled our jury box, you 
might say,

Q X see. Do you check your City —  your County or City Directory 

for the purpose of placing names on the jury roll?
A Mo#

Q Do you use any other method for placing the names of persons on 
the jury roll?

A Ho more than going around in our communities and people that we 
think are eligible for serving on the jury; that is the way we 
have don© it,

Q I see. You donft use the Tax Assessor’s or the Tax Collector’s 
offices then, do you?

A Mo.

Q Do you have a wide acquaintance among Negroes in •—* in Lowndes 
County?

A Do I have which?

Q A wide acquaintance?
A I do,

Q You know —  you know a great many Negroes?
A I do.



Q 1 see. Have you placed the names of Negroes on the jury roll?
A 1 have.
Q When did you first do this?

A Ever since I have been serving on the Jury Commission.

Q I see. Do —  can you tell us how many names of Negroes were on
th® jury roll last year?

A I cannot.

Q Would you say you had more than ten?

A I —  I cannot answer that question; 1 just don’t know.

Q Have you placed in the names of Negroes on the jury roll this 
year?

A I have.

Q How many?

A 1 couldn’t answer that.

Q How did you get those?

A 1 don’t keep a record of it; after we fill the jury box, I am 
through with it; I don’t —

Q How did you get those names?

A Just like I told you just now; we got —  go around through the 

communities and get names from people that people work with and 
that are acquainted with them and know who are eligible and who 
are not,

Q Did you —  did you > did you get those names by contacting 

other white persons in the community?
A Contacting colored people and white people, also.

17



18

Q Can you give us the names of some of the Negroes that you 
contacted?

A I —  can I give you names?

Q Yes; yes?

A I can give soma names if 1 have to,

Q Well well, give us those names, please?

WITNESS* Do I have to, your honor?

JUDGE RIVESi Yes, that is competent*
A I have contacted Eay from down at Braggs, Alabama,
Q Ray who?

A Cat Ray is all I know is M s  name; that is what they call him;
I don’t know what his —

Q Is he a good friend of yours?
A A friend?
Q Yes?

A You could call it friend.

Q Okay; who else you contacted?

A I also contacted some white people that Marked a bunch of the 
men down in there.

Q Would these -«*
A Mr. —

Q —  be farmers?

A No, one of them is a sawmill man.
Q White farmers?
A Mr, Mack Casey down there —



1 Q

Q When did you «-•-

A — - operates a farm, sawmill, planer mill*

Q When did you first make this contact; this year or last year?
A I been making it all along*

Q huh| did you —— before the trial of Mr# Coleman, did you
make any contacts?

A 1 have,

Q You —  you mad© special contacts to get Negroes on the jury roll; 
is that right?

A I ”**” I have talked to people like I told you just now about the 
ones that m s  eligible —

Q I see•

A —  and the ones that were not eligible to serve*

Q Did you make any contacts before the trial of Leroy Collins?
A 1 did not,.

Q You did not?

A Not —  not with the —  any authorities; 1 did not,

Q I see. Now, when you —  ttfhen you —  when you obtained the names 
of these Negroes, how did you put them on the jury roll?

A What do you mean, how did I put them on there?

Q I mean what method did you use to put them on the jury roll?
A We had the names and just put them on there.

Did you go —  did you —  was this — * was —  was this —  were you 
refilling the boss at the time, the jury box?

Yeah, we were filling the jury box.A



20

Q Refilling?

A 1 was filling it; 1 don't know whether you call it refilling or 

not; we fill the jury box whenever we are ordered by the Judge,

Q I see. Well, when was the last time you put Negroes on the jury 
roll, if yon can recall?

A Oh, I wouldn't —  I don't know what exact date, but was last 

time we filled the jury box; now, the exact data, I couldn't 
answer that.

Q Was it immediately before the trial of Tom Coleman?

A Wo, it —  I tell you, ever since 1 have b@e:a on there, it has 
been Negroes put in the jury box —

Q Uh, huh.

A —  not just Tan Colaa&n or Leroy Collins or anybody else's trial,
Q How, do you —  do you —  I am sorry, Collie Leroy Wilkins that

1 was asking about. When was the last time you refilled the jury- 
box?

A 1 couldn't tell you the exact dat© on that.
Q Well, was it this year?

A Yeah, it liras this year.
Q What month?

A I would say in November, I mean September, I don't know whether

that was it or not, but X would think that was the last time we
wsr® called.

Q Had you —  was the box at that time have been —  have been 
exhausted; is that right?



21

A It was not completely exhausted, I don’t guessj I don’t know why 

**** why the Judge called it to be refilled, now; he -- he runs 

the Court there, and we try to do whatever he asks us to do®

A Do you xasan by that that there were, as far as you know, enough 

names in the jury box to have had trial without refilling it?
A What is your question again?

Q You *—  you stated that you don’t know why the Judge asked to have 
the box refilled; is that what you said?

A That is what I said.

Q Uh, hull# Let me ask you this; do you frequently attend court in 
Lowndes County, Alabama?

A I do not unless*n I ara subpoenaed.

Q I see- You only go when you are asked to come?
A Go when I am subpoenaed*

0 Uh, huh; are you usually present when the Judge draws the names 

of persons from the jury box for —  for the purpose of trying to 

get a group of jurors to try cases, both grand and petit juries?
A Do I do what, now?

Q Are you present when the Judge draws the names from the jury box?
A I am not.

Q You are not present?
A No, not —

Q Ion never have been present?
A Yeah, I have been*

Q When was the last time you were present?



22

A I couldn!t answer*
Q Mas it this year?
A I couldn*t ***» no.

Q Mas it last year?
A Ho.

Q Give us your best judgment, Mr. Crook?

A I just can’t answer that question, because 1 can’t give you the 
exact date, and I rather not answer.

Q Uh, huh. Do you know, Mr. Crook, of any Negroes who has served 
on a petit jury in Lowndes County?

A Do 1 know any of them?

Q Of any Negro who has served on the petit jury in Lowndes County 
within the last ten years?

A i do not, because I -- like I say, I don’t go unless’n I am —
Q Do you know of any Negroes ~~
A —  subpoenaed.

Q —  you can answer that yes or no?

A All I know that they have been put in the jury box; now, whether 
they have served or not, I cannot answer.

Q Do you know of your own knowledge of any Negro who has served 
on a petit —

A I told you I did not know any, because 1 am not there. 1 put

them in the jury box; now, whether they serve or don’t serve, I 
cannot answer.

$ D© you know of any Negro who has served on a petit jury in



23

Lowndes County?

MR* HALL: We object; that is repetitious*
A I done answered that; I done told you.

JUDGE RITES! He told you he does not*

JUDGE ALLGOOD: He answered it,

Q Do you know of any Negro who has served on a grand jury in 
Lowndes County, Al&bansa?

A I do not, because I haven’t been there*

Q All xlght. You do know a number of Negroes in Lowndes County, 
do you not?

A I do.

Q Have you used the Negro churches for the purpose of obtaining the 
names of Negroes to place on the jury roll?

A I have not* I don’t think that is the place to go to try to 
obtain them.

Q 1 see. You stated previously, Mr, Crook, that — - I believe, 1 

could be wrong or not remember —  that the method that you and 

other Jury Commissioners have used to obtain the names of persons 
placed on the jury roll was through the voters lists; is that 
right?

A I said the voting list and also visits around in your communities,
Q The voters list —

A Talking to people that knew your people that was eligible to 
serve on your jury; that is what I told you.

Q 1 see. But your primary source of information is the voters list?



24

A 1 did not say that*

Q What is your primary source of information?

A Just like 1 told you, voting list and going around and getting 

up names out of your communities.
Q That is your —
A That is ay primary source

Q X see*
A —  that’s right*

Q Well, do you know how —  what the other people’s methods?

A X can’t speak for the others; they work in different ends of

the County from X do,

Q I see* Now, when ~  when you get your names and the other two

members get their names, you have a meeting; is that right?

A That’s right*

Q Now, do you —  do you investigate the —  what —  what investiga­

tion do you make as far as the qualification of jurors are 

concerned?
A It is just like I told you just now; it is no investigation, no 

more than what the people names that give us, that is all we can 
go by| we can’t go to each individual.

Q Do you —  do you make any investigation as to the qualifications 
of the persons cho—  chosen?

A Mo more than they got to be a male and the age limit is all*

Q That is all you —  that is the only investigation you make?

A That’s right.



25

Q 1 see. How, the — • the the — - the —  •

JUDGE RIVES; You mean that is all —
Q Are you acquainted —

JUDGE RIVES? Just a moment, Mr. Billingsley.
WITNESSs Sir?

JUDGE RIVES? Is that all the qualifications you 
require for a juror to he in the box?

WITNESS? Well, to be —  your honor, you got to be 
a citizen and everything in your County.

JUDGE RIVES? Doesn’t the statute prescribe other 

qualifications for jurors?
WITNESS? Yes, sir.

JUDGE RIVESs You don’t inquire into the other
qualifications?

WITNESS: We require them to have all the qualifica­
tions, your honor.

JUDGE RIVES? What qualifications do you require?
WITNESS % Being a citizen of your County, living 

there the length of time that they are supposed to be, and in the 

State of Alabama so long, and if — • his age, if they aver been 

convicted or anything it’s -—  criminal offense or anything, that is 
unlawful —

JUDGE RIVES? That all?

WITNESS: —  of that statue? yes, sir.
JUDGE RIVES? All right. All right, gentlemen, go



26

ahead.

MR. BILLINGSLEYl lour honor, that is —  that is all 
we have to ask this witness at this time, hut we wish to recall him 
at a later hour.

JUDGE RITES: All right. Wait just a. moment, Mr,
Crook; there may be some questions on the other side.

CROSS EXAMINATION s
BY MR. BRADLEY:

Q Mr. Crook —
A Yes, sir*

Q —  you stated that you had lived in Lowndes County all of your 

life; what part of Lowndes County do you live in?
A I live in the southwest corner of Lowndes County, sir.

Q Mew, could you tell the Court, please, sir, what the principal
industry is in Lowndes County?

A It is faming and sawmilling.

Q Farming, has that been the principal industry for a number of 
years?

A For my life; yes, sir.

And could you tell the Court, please, what —  what segment of 

the population in Lowndes County work in those industries, 
principally; is it the Negro or white or what; could you tell 
the Court?

A Do which, now, sir?

Q Could you tell the Court, please, what race that works in these



27

industries principally in Lowndes County| do Negroes work on the 
farms and in the sawmills principally?

A Yes, sir.

Q More so than the white people, do they?
A Xes, sir.

MR* BRADLEYl That’s all, your honor.

JUDGE RIVES; Questions from the other —
BY MR. COLES

Q Mr. Crook, let me ask you just one or two questions, please, sirj 
do you Imre a City Directory in Lowndes County?

A I couldn’t answer that, sir*

Q How, let me ask you this; does the —  does the County Solicitor 

or the Circuit Solicitor have anything to do with the selection 
of jurors?

A Mo, sir.

Q What about the Sheriff?
A Ho, sir*

Q What about the Probate Judge?
A Ho, sir*

Q Circuit Judge?
A Ho, sir*

Q Circuit Solicitor?

A Ho, sir*

Q Hone of these people have anything to do with the selection of
jurors?



28

A Bothing whatsoever, sir.

Q And it was your statement that when you refilled the jury box 
was when the Judge ordered —  ordered you to?

A Right*

Q And what would be the condition of the jury box at that time! 

would it be full or empty or nearly empty or what, before you 
had to refill it?

A Well, I think it would be kindly exhausted, or he wouldn't have 
us to refill it, if he didn't think — * not — « 1 couldn't answer 
that, but that would be say opinion.

Q All right, sir| how often do you refill it?
A Once or twice a year.

MR. COLE! All right, sir; that's all; thank you* 

JUDGE RIVESs Questions *— just a moment; are there
any questions by the intervener plaintiffs?

MR* BILLINGSLEY! I am sorry?

MR* BESSON: Yes, your honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION:

BY MR. BESSON:
Q Mr. Crook, do you try and contact Negroes who are well known in 

the community?
A Do I?

Q Yes?

A I have; yes, sir#

Q Would you say that they were the leaders of the Negro community?



29

A No, sir| I wouldn*t say that,

Q Would you say that they were the people who are most likely in 
the Negro community to know Negroes who were qualified to serve 
on juries?

A What is your question again, please?

Q Are the Negroes that you contact in the community the persons 
who would be most likely to know the qualifications of other 
Negroes in the commxmity?

A Tea, sir,

Q Do you try to obtain the names of all qualified persons in the 
community?

A I do.

Q So that if there were any qualified people that you knew of in 
the community, you would say that they would most likely he on 
the jury roll?

A Yes, sir.

Q At your Jury Commission meetings, do you discuss the names of 
individual persons?

A At which, now?

Q At the Jury Commission meetings, do you discuss the names of 
individual persons before you place then in the jury roll?

A We have our list that we go by, and we put the people on there 
that we think are best qualified,

Q Is there any discussion of those persons before they are put in 
the box?



30

A Between your Jury Commission?
Q Yes?

A Yes, sir,

Q Is it usually a lengthy discussion or very short discussion?

A Ever —  whatever time it takes to ~  for the three of us to 

■ decide whether they are eligible or ineligible to serve 5 it 

could be lengthy, it could be short, I just couldnft say. It 

takes quite a whileJ it is pretty good job to fill the jury box,
Q Do you do you apply any literacy testsj do you have any way

of testing the literacy of persons you put in the jury box?
A Never have? since I have been there, we have not.

Q Bo you consider it consider it a requirement for jury service 
that a person be literate?

A Sir?

Q Do you consider it a requirement for jury service that a person 
be literate?

A We try to, like I told you all just now, go —  we get the men 

that we think are qualified to serve and ones that does qualify 
to serve,

JUDGE RIVESS That wasnft his question? he asked you
whether you thought literacy was a requirement to serve.
A Yes, sir| I do,

Q If a person owns a house,and owns land, and has a good reputation 

in the community, would you consider hisi qualified for jury 

service in spite of the fact that he might not be able to read



31

and write?

ii Yes, sirJ if" his moral character is all right, and. everything 
else.

Q Could you describe to me something that you would consider as 
detracting from a man’s moral character to the point "where he 
would be disqualified; are those qualifications, for instance, 
serious crimes?

A It would be crimes, I would think; yes, sir*
Q Are they usually things that are of that very serious nature?
A Sir?

Q Are there usually things that are of that very serious nature?
A I don’t quite get your question, six1?

Q If you are not aware of anything very serious about a person,
would you consider that he had good moral character and place him 
in the jury roll?

A Yes, air,

Q If you are not very familiar with a person, would you place him 
in the jury roll not knowing anything specifically bad about him?

A Yes, sir; if ha —  . If —  if —  what did you ask m®, sir, now, 
again? What was that question again?

Q If a person’s name conies up at the Jury Commission meeting, and 

• you don’t know the parson very well, but you don’t know anything 
bad about him, would you put him in the jury box?

A If we discussed it, and the other three men said so, all of us 
agreed, we would.



32

Q Do you put persons in the jury box who are over sixty-five years 
of age?

A Hoy sir; not if we know it* They are excused from jury duty at 
the age of sixty-five,

Q Do you exclude from the jury box all persons who you feel would 
be excused if they wanted to be excused?

A Mo, sir,

MR. HESSONl That*s all the questions I have; thank
you*

JUDGE RIVES: Any further questions by the plaintiffs?
MR. BILLINGSLEY: Yes, sir.

El 1®. BILLINGSLEY:

Q Mr. Crook, will you give us some background as to your education­
al qualifications, please, sir?

A My education?

Q Yes?

A I have a high school, twelfth grade education.

Q I see. Now, I want to ask you about the Clark of the Jury

Comission again; are you familiar with the duties of the Clerk 
of the Jury Comission?

A I am not,

Q 1 will read to you Title —  a portion of Title 30, Section 24, 
quote, tfThe Jury Commission shall require the Clerk of the 

Commission to scan the registration lists, the lists returned

to the Tax Assessor, any City Directories, Telephone Directories,



33

and any and every other source of information from which he may 

obtain information* and to visit every precinct at least once a 

year to enable the Jury Commission to properly perform the 

duties required of it by this Chapter”; does the Clerk of the 
Jury Commission follow those duties?

A I —  that I couldn’t answer.

Q You don’t know?

A I —  I couldn’t answer.

Q Now, do you consult with the Sheriff of Lowndes County as to 

putting names of persons on the jury roll?

A I consult with nobody but our Jury Commission and the people, 
like 1 told you just now, the ones that we get out and get names 
from.

MR. BILLINGSLEY; That’s all.
JUDGE RIVES; That all?

MR. BILLINGSLEY; Yes, sir; subject to recall.

JUDGE RIVES; You are excused, Mr. Crook.
WITNESS; Thank you, sir.

JUDGE RIVES; Call your next witness.

MR. MORGAN; Judge T. Worth —

JUDGE RIVES; You want Mr. Crook — * you are through
with Mr. Crook, I believe?

MR. BILLINGSLEY; Subject to recalling Mr. Crook.

JUDGE RIVES; Mr. Crook, we are going to have to ask
you to —



34

ME* HALL: Mr. Crook is a party, your honor,
MR* FLOWERS: Ho is a party, your honor*
JUDGE RIVES: Oh, yes, you are a partyj I beg your

pardon*

MR. MORGAN; Judge T* Werth Thagard.
JUDGE RIVES: Call your next witness.
MR. MORGAN: Judge T* Werth Thagard*

.TMOABD, a Defendant, called as witness by the Plaintiffs,
having been duly sworn or affirmed, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATIONS
BY MR. MORGAN:

Q Your honor, you are the duly elected and qualified Judge of the 
Second Judicial Circuit of Alabama; is that correct, sir?

A I am, yes*

Q And in the Second Judicial Circuit is the County of Lowndes; is 
that not correct?

A Right*

Q Ask, please, as the Judge of the Court in Lowndes County, the 
Circuit Court, you are charged by the Alabama Code with the 
duties of qualifying and swearing jurors; is that not true, sir?

A Right.

And also with the duty of returning the names of non-impaneled 
jurors to the jury box; is that not true, also, sir?

A I didn’t understand that question?



35

Q

A

Q
A

Q
A

Q
A

Q

A
Q

A

Q

A

Q

A

a
A

The duty of returning the names of non-impaneled jurors to the 
jury box?

Right; yes*

Drawing the names of talesmen?
Right•

Drawing jurors for service in your Court?
Right.

Is that not correct, sir?
Right.

In the performance of your duties, Judge Thagard, have you ever 
excused Negroes from jury duty who have been called and asked to 
b© excused?
I have, yes.

Have you ever excused whites ?
Yes, sir.

Have you in any way discrirainatorily made choice between the 
excuses?

I don’t think so, sir; actually, I have been pretty liberal in 
granting excuses for occupational reasons and personal reasons 
to both races•

And you find no predominance of requests from one race or the 
other?
No, I don’t think so.

Yes, sir. For how long have you been a Circuit Judge?
Thirteen years*



36

Q Thirteen years, sir. During those thirteen years, has a Negro 
ever served on a petit jury on a trial in Lowndes County?

A Hot as far as I recall, sir.

Q On a grand jury, sir?
A I think so; I am not absolutely certain as to that, but I think 

maybe two or three times since I have been on the bench.
Q Can you explain to the Court, please, sir, the workings of the 

jury system once you enter into the —  enter into the picture?
A Well, I —  before each term of the Court, I go to Lowndes County 

and go into the Clerk’s office and ask for the jury box. And 
there in the presence of the Clerk, and usually the —  the Clerk 

of the Board of Revenue is present, and sometimes Deputy Sheriff, 
and maybe a few domino players around. And then 1 shake the box 

and raise the lid and draw them out one at a time and hand them 
to the Clerk. I draw them blindly, of course. I usually 

predetermine how many to draw and discuss how many cases we have 

on the docket and decide whether or not to draw fifty, sixty, or 

seventy-five, depending upon how many we think w@ will need.

And then that —  that is all I do, then, until I gc back to 

Court and draw the jury, I mean qualify it* Then when I draw 
the grand jury —  you want me to tell you about that?

Q Yes, sir; I do?
A All the names —  well, first, 1 qualify the jurors generally as 

to their general qualifications, let them stand and be sworn, and 

ask them the general qualifications, and then assuming that they



37

are all qualified, all the names are put in the that is, the 

little tickets with their names and occupations and place of 

residence on them, are put in a hat, and then I blindly draw 

eighteen names from the hat. And they are brought around and 

impaneled as —  as members of the grand jury. And then the 

Circuit Solicitor hands up to me on a piece of paper the name 

of a suggested foreman of the grand jury; and, as a rule, I 
I say as a rule, I say invariably I accept his nomination as to 

the foreman and ask that gentleman to stand and be sworn as 

foreman of the grand jury. Then he sits down, and then I ask 

the other members of the grand jury to stand and be sworn.
Q Yes, sir. How many grand juries to you have in Lowndes County 

each year?
A Two,

Q And. how many terms of Court do you have in Lowndes County?

A Ordinarily two, unless we have a special terra sometimes,

Q And each term of Court, do you have two separate — - do you have 

a civil week and criminal week?

A We have a civil and grand jury week, and then a criminal week.

Q Eight; and ordinarily, you spend then, would you say, how many 

weeks in Lowndes County each year?
A I would say ordinarily, until this year, one day for the erimina 

term, criminal and grand jury tern and one day for the —  I mean 

one day for the civil and grand jury term, and then one day for 
the criminal tern in the spring, and likewise in the fall.



3S

Occasionally it lasts two days, but very seldom.

Q Now, Jury Commissioners are appointed by the Governor of the 
State, are they not, sir?

A Yes, sir.
Q And must be from a qualified voters list, also, as 1 recall?

A I am not sura; I haven’t checked the statute on that, but —  1

should think so, but ~~
Q Judge, is it your experience and knowledge that in Lowndes County 

there are Negro —  are you —  do you have an acquaintanceship, 
a wide acquaintanceship in Lowndes County?

A Not too wide| probably not as wide as I should have to occupy 
the position I do, but I —  don’t have a particular good memory 
for names and faces.

Q What —  what are the other counties in your Circuit, sir?
A Crenshaw and, Butler.
Q With respect to Lowndes County and the population of Lowndes

County, would your knowledge of citizens there include both white 
and Negro citizens?

A Mr. Morgan, I doubt if I know a colored person in Lowndes County 
by name —

Q All right.
A —  and I know, oh, ten per cent, maybe twenty per cent, of the 

white male —  adult males.
MR. MORGANS All right, sir; thank you.
WITNESS: You are welcome.



39

JUDGE RIVES; Gentlemen, I believe I will ask the 
intervener plaintiff if they have any questions?

MR* MESSGflJ Yes, your honor.
BY MR. NESSOK;
Q Judge, If you were aware of any wrongdoing in the process by

which names were put in the jury box, would you consider it your 
duty, before drawing a venire from that box, to see that the 
wrongdoing was corrected?

MR* COLE; We object to that as assuming facts that 
are not in issue here, and calling for conjecture solely as to what 
he might do In a given circumstance.

JUDGE RIVES; Overrule the objection*
A I would do my duty as I saw it, sir; yes, sir.

Q Would you consider it your duty to correct the wrongdoing?

A If I thought it was a wrongdoing, yes.

Q Judge, about how many jury cases are tried in Lowndes County in 
the average year?

A I would say four.

Q Does that include both the civil week •—
A Both the civil week and criminal week, yes.
Q — • and criminal week?

A (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
Q One moment, please. Judge, is this the jury box from which you 

draw the venire?
A That looks like it.



Q In Lowndes County?
A That looks like it; I assume that is the box* if you say it is, 

MR. WESSON; Thank you. your honor; that’s all the

questions *
JUDGE RIVES; Any questions by the defendants?

CROSS EXAMINATION;

BY MR. COLE;
Q Judge Thagard, prior to the last —  to the time this suit was 

filed, have you ever had any complaints from Negroes in Lowndes 

Comity about having been excluded from the jury or not having 

served?
A None whatever,

MR. BILLINGSLEY: We object to that, your honor; that

Is irrelevant.
JUDGE RIVES; Overrule the objection.

A No, sir.
Q You have never had a complaint about them serving on the jury?

A Not the first one.
Q Have any of them ever asked you to be put on the jury or 

approached you about that?

A Ho, sir.
MR. BILLINGSLEY; We object to that.

JUDGE RIVES; Overrule the objection,
MR. BILLINGSLEY; It is the duty of the Jury

Commission to put these persons on the jury roll, not that they —



41

they request to be put on*
JUDGE RITES; I understand, gentlemen, but all the 

circumstances are in the case; we will overrule the objection*
MR* BILLINGSLEY: All right, sir.

Q Has the question ever been raised in the Circuit Court down 
there about ~~

A Not —  no, sir; not to my —

Q —  about excluding Negroes?

A This suit was the first knowledge I had of it*
Q Judge, could you give us your judgment over the time you have 

been Judge how many criminal cases you tried a year in Lowndes 
County?

A Actually tried at the hands of the jury, I don?t believe an 
average of more than two or three a year.

Q All right, sir; now, what about civil cases?
A About the same number.

Q All right, sir; now, when —  when you draw your jurors for a 

term of Court, I understand that that includes a week for civil 
trials and a week for criminal trials?

A Right *

Q And that you hold your grand jury the week of the civil —
A Civil Court *

Q —  cases?
A Right, sir,

Q All right, sir; now, if you have a capital case, you have to draw



42

an extra number of jurors for your criminal week?

A Special venire, yes.
Q How many names do you draw when you draw the names for your term 

of Court down there?

A Usually for tha grand jury and civil week, sixty-five or seventy, 
because of —  as I said, I have had a. very liberal policy about 

granting excuses, and eighteen —  it takes eighteen for the grand 

jury, and we will have to have about thirty left to serve, if 

we are trying civil case, for them to strike from, because 
frequently some of the thirty will be disqualified in a particular 

case.
Q All right, now —  all right, sir; I ask you if your liberal-

policy regarding the granting of excuses has been occasioned in 
whole or in part by the fact that you have seldom tried a case 

down there?

A That is true; right.
Q low, Judge, in the —  in the drawing of the names of jurors to

serve in a particular terra of Court, do you know in advance whose

names will be drawn?
A Ho.
Q Do you make any effort to determine it?
A Hone whatever, and I never know until I get there; I don’t even

see the list until I get there; I don’t look at the tickets when

I draw them out, just hand them to the Clerk.
Q As 1 understand it, you just take the cards out and hand them to



43

the Clerk —
A Right.

Q -- and th© Clerk makes up the venire, and you don’t see them any 

more until you get there?

A That is correct. Now, in my early years on the bench, the Clerk 

usually mailed me a list of the jurors, but that hasn’t been done, 
now, in ten years, I suppose.

Q All right, sir. Do you have anything at all to do with the 

selection of jurors?

A Nothing| none whatever*

Q Do you have anything to do with the selection of Jury Commission" 

ers, or the appointments?
A I do not.

Q Do you have anything to do with the recommendation of appointment 

of Jury Commissioners?

A I do not.

Q Judge, when you order the jury box refilled down there, do you 
have any special criterion that you apply to determine when to 
order the jury box filled?

A Noj actually, I never make a formal order; when 1 find that the 

number of tickets in the box are getting low, I just suggest to 

the Clerk that she get the Jury Commission Commissioners to put 
some more names in th© box; that is all.

Q Is the sole criterion for determining when to refill the jury 

box the fact that it is low, and you don’t have sufficient names



44

in it?

A Right| that is —  that is the sols **- sole criterion.

Q All right; seme reference was made to the fact that the jury box

was refilled in August or September of 1965; what was the reason 

for that, please, sir? That was refilled prior to your term, of 
Court or during?

Q I suppose, I assume —  actually, I don’t have any recollection, 

independent recollection, Mr. Coleman, of suggesting that it be 

refilled, bub probably when I went to draw a jury, I found that 
the names were —  the number had become rather low, but —

Q Because —  because the number was low?
A That’s right! yes, sir.

MR* COLE: All right, that’s alls thank you, sir.

ME* MORGAN: Couple of more questions.

JUDGE RIVES: Any questions on rebuttal?

ME* MORGAN: Xes, sir*

REDIRECT EXAMINATION:
BX MR. MORGAN:

Q Judge, to your knowledge, no Negroes are employed at the Lowndes 
County Court House, other than with respect to the janitorial 
services! is that true?

A I think that is correct, Mr. Morgan, as far as I can recall.
Q In your Judicial —  not in your Judicial Circuit, limit it to 

Lowndes County, there has been no challenges of the jury system 
there in a criminal nor civil case, lias there?



45

A 1 don’t think so*

Q Can you give me the largest number of names of Negroes — ~ let

me *»- let me phrase that different, the largest number of Negroes 
who have appeared on a venire in Lowndes County?

A Mr* Morgan, it would be sort of a guess or —  or a judgment, but 

what I mean is, I never —  I never count them; I don’t believe 
more than three or four at any one time,

Q All right, sir; but all grand jurors and all petit jurors are 
drawn more or less as a random sampling

A Eight, sir.

Q >■—  from the box?
A Uh, huh.

ME, MORGANS Thank you, sir.

WITNESS; You are welcome.

JUDGE RIVES; You may be excused, Judge Thagard,

MR. NESSON; If your honor please, could I ask just
a few more questions?

JUDGE RIVES; Yes, sir.
BY MR. NESSON:

Q Judge, how often would you say that the box needs to be refilled 
in Lowndes County?

A You mean how often do I find it necessary to suggest that it 
ba refilled?

G Yes, sir?

A Probably once a year.



4*5

Q Xou usually do that before the — » the upcoming tern of Court 
begins?

A Well, actually «- you Mr* Boar?
Q Mr. lesson*

A Mxv lesson; actually, X think they usually attend to it without 
my suggesting it| X do know that when X find that the number is 

low, I suggest to the Cleric, but X think probably they usually 
meet between- each tern of the Court and on their own and put 
s«m @ names in it$ X rather think it is done more that way than 

at ay request; but- X do request it when X find that the ■—  that 
the- names are. getting low, the number is getting low.

Q How many names are-, usually left in the jury box when you ask 
for the jury box to be refilled! what do you consider a low 
mtabar?

A I would say anything under a hundred.
Q So that whenever you draw a venire from the box, there are at 

least a hundred names in the box?
A X think so.
Q flow, there would be —» would there be more than one hundred names!
A Usually; yes, sir; I would say on an average a hundred, and fifty 

to two hundred. I think, that is my best judgasnt about it*
Q Do you shake the box before you draw the names?
A I do, yes. That is, 1 — 1 think I dof X do most of the time;

2 —  1 woulda*i say that —  have never failed to; X am not sure* 
But that is my policy*



Q Do you count the -names in th© box to determine how many are 
theret

A Mo, sir*

Q T© see whether it will be enough for th® upcoming term?
A Ho, sirf I mean if —  if I think when I open it a sad put ay 

hand in there, if there are too few, 1 can pretty well tell by 
a sense of touch*

Q Just if it feels as if there is a substantial pile of* cards?

A I draw the Jury*

Q And if there is not, then what happens?

A 1 tell the Clerk to have the Board to put some more names, and 

I wait until they have done so to draw the Jury*

Q How long does it usually take them to refill the box after you. 
have told them that it is necessary?

A low, that I don’t knew; I Just wait until I go back up there to 

draw the Jury, maybe make another trip back, and they have mot 

in the meantime, you see, I don’t attend their meetings, and 1 
just —  Just off hand don’t recall haring had that experience.

Q How many days before Court begins do you usually draw the venire
A Usually two to three weeks before the Court begins-#
Q So that if you felt in the box and found that there are not

enough cards there, and you ask the Jury Commission to fill it, 
it would have to be filled before the upcoming term of Court?

A Yes, that’s right! yes*

Q So that the maximum time would be two or three weeks?



4$

A Sight®

Q Would you say it would be usually less than two or three weeks?

A No, 1 think two to three week©, always at least two weeks* that

is to give the Clerk of the Court and the Sheriff, the Court 

officials, time to get the summonses out* 1 might once or twice 

bm& been —  have neglected it until perhaps a week or ten days 

before, the term of Court, but usually two, three, sometimes 

four weeks#
Q Can you tell me how long it takes the Jury Commission to fill 

the box?
A Bo, sir| 1 bay© no idea*

Q After you draw the cards from the jury box, could you describe 
what happens, then* how do they get on to the venire list?

A The Clerk of the Circuit Court puts the® there, prepares the 
list on typewritten —  she typewrites them ©a a sheet of paper*

Q Ton hand, the cards to the Clerk?
A To the Clerk* well, I **» actually,, when. 1 hand them to her, as 

a rule she puts them in an envelope and seals them and writes —  
writes on there what — * what tern they are for, mid then at seme 

later time, I don’t know whether that day or the next day or 
when, but that is I am through with it, and all 1 know is 

the jurors turn up when 1 go to Court*.

Q Tou take the cards from the box* do yon place them in the 
envelope and give them to the Clerk?

Bo, I —  I just hand them to her, and she places them in theA



49

envelope.

MR. HESSOl! Thank you, Judge.

JUDGE BXFESs Any further questions* gentlemen, from
Judge Tbagard?

MR* MORGAN: Ho* sir| Jndgsf thank you*

J U K E  RITES: .Judge Ttegard* then, may be excused* 
Ml* MORGAN: You say be- excused as far as —
JUDGE RJTESi For- the —

JUDGE JOHNSON: Just a acmeist* Judge*
JUDGE RITES: Judge Johnson?

•JUDGE .jOHHSQHs Judge Thagard —

MTS NESS: lea* sir.

JUDGE JOHNSON: ■—  on the average, how many jurors 

will you draw from the box each year, for the last several years?

WITNESS: Let’s se©, say a hundred and twenty-five* 
two hundred and fifty* probably* Hundred and twenty-five in the 
spring and hundred and twenty-five in the fall*

JUDGE JOHNSON-3 Does that sean, then, if you order 
it refilled approximately once a year wiser* it gets down to about a 

hundred* you just have:about two hundred and fifty names la the box 
each time?

WITNESS: That’s right.
JUDGE JOHNSONS That is all I want.

REGRG35 EXAMINATIONS
BY MEU COLEi



50

Q JMg®, lat me ask one more question, probably clear something up 

for the Court? do you know or have you. ever counted the names,

I mean the number of jurors* cards in the jury bos?

A Ho.
Q A M  what you are .saying here is just your best judgment -~

A That*#, right*
Q frcet looking*

MS* GOLEs That*s all.

WITHESSs Do I understand I am excused for the 
balance of this case? I have a term of Court set for Monday*

MR* MORGANS Yes, sir; with the plaintiffs it- is all 

right for you to be excused*
JUDGE RXYBSs You may be excused for- the balance of

the case*.
WITNESS* Thank you very such*

JUDGE RWESt Yes.
MR* MORGANS Thank you, sir* Henry Barganier.

T ft it ii ̂  in »* » n ̂  n tr-̂ itiruft rfr> n B ft -i n *  ̂  » 9,. i  n w.ft-

HENRY BAROAMXRR* a Defendant, called as witness by the Plaintiffs, 

having been duly m o m  or affirmed, testified as follows*

DIRECT EXAMINATIONS

HI MR. MORGANS
Q What is your name, pleas®, sir?

A Henry Bargaaler.

Q Where do you reside?



51

A Fort Deposit*
Q How. —  that is is the County of Lowndes, air; is that in Lowndes 

County?

A Tea, sir,
Q What is your occupation?
A Ix-filling station operator*
Q Ex-filling station operator! what —  you faming?

A Ho, sir®.
Q You retired now?
A Ho, sir| 1 as Just quit for awhile.,
Q You quit for awhile; you —  you —  your educational background, 

air; what is your educational — *
A Eleventh grade»

Q Eleventh grad©?

A Clodded to indicate affirmative reply)

Q How long you lived in Lowndes County?

A Fifty-eight years,

Q And you are how old now?
A Fifty-eight*
Q Eight# Can you tell a®, sir, about how you go about —  you are 

a member of the Jury Commission of —

A Yes, sir,
Q — ■ Lowndes County; can you tell me how you go about the selection

of the names for the persons to be placed on the jury rolls, on 

the lists, and in the boxes?



52

A Well* we use a voting list, and then the Jury Commissioners gets 
out and from other sources*, and gets the names from that®

Q Would you tell ms what other sources you get names from, sir*?
A Well, in my area there, this time, 1 had & ffegr© preacher and 

told M s  to to get me up scsae names that would be a good 
jurymens that was free from any conviction of anything and good 
citizens... . Citizens of Lowndes Comity.

Q Who was that person, sir?

A Amos Lewis*

Q, I didn’t  get the first mm@?

A Amos Lewis.

Q Thank youj and did he provide you with names?
A Yes, sir*

Q How many names, did he provide you with?
A Tea#
Q And what did you do with those ten. names, sir?

A I turned them- in to the — » Mrs. —  to the Clerk when —  when we
dr&wed from those names.

Q. Mrs* Coleman?
A Yes, -sir*

Q Prior to the time Mrs* Coleman took office, did you follow that 
practice or procedure?

A 1 didn’t get you?

Q Prior to the time that Mrs® Kelly Coleman became Clerk of the 
Jury Commission and Clerk of the Court there, did you fellow the



53

practice of going to ffegro preachers?

A Ho, sir*| 1 did not,

Q Do you know whether .any other member of the Jury Commission did 

follow that practice?

A I couldn’t *—  1 couldn’t say.

Q Do yon know —  prior to — * do yon know the date upon which the 
ten names were placed in the box or were acquired by you?

A Ho, sirf it was before we set. the last time, but I just couldn’t, 
toll you.

Q When did you last meet, sir?
A Sometimes in September, I believe £ 1 wouldn’t say.

Q That would be September of —
A It was before the last fall Court*
0 Of this year?

A Yes, sir.
Q Yes, sir. Prior to that time, sir, had there been the names of 

any Hegrees in the jury box, on the rolls, or lists of Lowndes 

County?

A Yes, sir#

Q How many, sir?
A Well# I couldn’t answer that•
Q What would your best judgment be?

A I just wouldn’t knowf I just I just wouldn’t know.

Q It would be less than ten, wouldn’t it; less than ten?

A Well, I would say so; yes, sir.



54

Q All right, air. Sew, you have friends amongst Negro people in 

Lowndes County, do you not, sir| you have friends amongst Negro 
people in Lowndes County?

A Tea, sir*

Q And you have a wide acquaintanceship, I should think, with Negro 
people in Lowndes County, Alabama, do you not?

A las, sir*

Q Jon fear© —  -do you know many qualified Negroes, there to serve on 
jury -*»*» on juries in Lowndes County?

A Well, I would think so; yes, sir*.

Q Would yon say there is a large number of Negroes in Lowndes 

County who are qualified to serve as ■«*-

k Well, I just wouldn’t know about that.

Q But you —  ..but .there are a great .many,, you would say, anyway?

A Well, I think there are acme; yes, sir*
Q When yon say, Ŝcsae,** would you give me an. estimate as to that, 

about the percentage of the population you would say?
A Well, I just wouldn’t know about that, because I don’t know all 

of .them; I just don’t know just all of that.*
Q Wall, are you pretty well restricted to the —  only the ccaauaity 

you live la —

A That’s right} yes, sir*
Q as. to the people you know?

A Yes, sir.
Q Bo you. work many Negroes?



55

A Mo* sir| I don’t work anyf I have —  I have,

Q You have in. the paatj have you had domestic servants in your

hate?
A Sir-?

Q Have you Imd domestic servants in your home?

A . No, sir*
Q A said or anything ©f that .nature?

A Ho, sir | act at the time*
Q What would you.' —  with respect to the Alabama law* sir* would 

you say that there are mmj male citizens of Lowndes County who 

are Negroes who are generally reputed to be honest* who are 
intelligent men, and who are esteemed in the comunity for 
their integrity, good character, and sound judgment?

A Well, I just wouldn’t know how many, but I aa. sure there are*

Q That is fine* And you know that there are many there who are

over twenty-one years of age and who are not habitual drunkards?
A Over twenty-one and which?
Q And who are not habitual drunkards?

A Gfa| yes*, sir,
Q Fin©.# Or afflicted —  and are not afflicted with a permanent 

disease or physical weakness?

A J m n sir*
Q lad are —  you knew that there are many Negro people in the 

County who can read English?

A X as sure there are.



56

Q And many of them who have never been convicted of any crime or 
off©as® involving moral turpitude?

A Well, I am sure there am, but I wouldn't know just how many•
Q And also, sir, there are a lot of .Negro landowners is the- County, 

are there not?

A ¥©11, there are ***- it is- a good many! yes, sir*

Q And a great many of Negro women who are heads of households who 
may b© widows or raising children, themselves, who «« who ©ay 
be landowners or who may fee tenant farmers, but who support 
families, either their parents or their children or others* by 
their work| is that correct, -sir?

A Clodded to indicate affirmative reply) Tea*
ME* MORGAN2 Pin©; thank you.*

JUDGE RIVES? Any questions by the intervening
plaintiff?

MR* HALL: What part of the County do you live in,
Mr* Barganier?

WITNESS:? The extreme southern part*
JUDGE RIVESl Mr* Bradley, let’s let the intervener

plaintiff ask first.

BI MR* NESSOH?
Q Sir, you went out and spoke to a Negro in order to get the names 

of qualified Negroes to serve on the juries?

A Yes, sir.
Q And you- had not dene that before?



5?

A Sir?

Q T o m  bad never dona that in years past?

A lo, sir I 1 faad»*t, myself*

Q What *—  who *»*“ who told you —  who instructed you that you should 

proceed in that maimer?

A 1 didnft —
Q 'Who —  who instructed you, who told you that you should go out 

and get oases of Hegroes by speaking to Negroes in the community? 
A Well, it corns up in the -Jury Commission that we was supposed to 

do tlmt *
Q Would you tell me exactly how that arose in the Jury Commission 

meeting?
A No, sir\ 1 des*t kaowf it just —  it just happened to eon© up*
Q Bo you know whether any of the Jury Commissioners had been 

instructed by someone outside the Jury Commission?

A lo, X doast know that.
JUDGE RIVES: When was that that you are speaking of,

Mr. Bargaaiar?
WITNESS: Tlmt was before —  tlmt was before we

filled the jury box the last ■—
JUDGE RIVES: la September?
WITNESS s Seme time, I believe it was in September.
JUDGE RIVES l That is when you put the ten names on? 
WITNESS: Yes, sir.
JUDGE RIVES: Ten names of Negroes?



58

WITNESS* Clodded, to indicate affirmative reply)
JUDGE HifESs And I believe you said you .bad never 

placed any Negroes in the jury box »

WITNESSS Ho, sir*

JUDGE RIVES* —  before that? Hour many years have 
you been on the Jury Commission?

WITNESS* Judge, I believe it was *57I 1 just wouldn’t
be positive*

JUDGE RIVES? Since 1957?

WITNESSs Yes, sir*

JUDGE R1¥I52 All right, sirf g© ahead*
Q {by Mr* lesson) Did you know the —  the ten persons whose sanies 

you obtained personally?
A Sir?
Q Were you personally acquainted with the ten persons whose assies 

you obtained from the reverend?
A Well, setae of them I were, and some I wasn’t*
Q Was there any protista with those names being put on the jury roll? 

A Amy problem?
Q Yes-} were there ***- within your discussion in the Jury meeting, 

the Jury Commission meeting?

A Oh, no*
Q Those names were simply given by you and put immediately on the 

roll?
A Well, some of them werej not all of the tea were*



59

Q Can you "toll bio why sens of the tea were not?
A Well* we just thought wa had enough, you know, when we had 

enough, we got enough, and that is the way we did it.
Q Sir, how many years have you been a Jury Commissioner?
A I believe it m s  ’57! I just wouldn’t —  I wouldn’t say.*

MR* MESSGNs Thank you very much*
JUDGE RXVESs Gentlemen•

CROSS EIAMIEATIONJ
El MR * HAIL I
Q Mr* Earganier, is any heavy industry in Lowndes County?
A How Is that?
Q Is there m j  heavy industry other than sawmill lag in Lowndes 

County?
A Nothing —  pulpwood is the biggest..
Q Pulpwood?
A Yes, air*
Q And 
A Industry*

Q And sawmilling?
A Tea* sir*
Q And the principal industry, then, principal, means of livelihood 

for the people in Lowndes County consists of faming and cattle 
raising! is that correct?

A That’s rightf. yes, sir*
Q flat is true of the white people as well as the colored people |



60

isnvt that correct?

A Yes, sir.

I®* HALL: Thank you, sir| that*s all*

JUDGE RIVES: Gentlemen, Mr* Cole, you have any
questions?

MR* FLOSSES: Nothing further.

MR* MORGAN; Ons more question.
EEBXREOf EXAMINATIONS

BI Mi. MORGAN:
Q In faming and in sawmill work and in other work that Is carried 

on generally in Lowndes County, many Negro males and females are 

placed in positions of trust-, aren«t -**■ are they not?

A Placed in positions of «—

Q Positions of trustj for instance, they handle heavy equipment

and *~
A Well, sir, yeah*

Q And they drive trucks?

A Trucks and tractors*
Q And allowed to take those trucks heme?

A Yes, sir*.
Q And they work generally in the community in positions where they 

as*© trusted by their- employers and by the community generally?
A Well, they generally always have a foreman over a certain bunch. 

Q Sure, and —
A They have foreman*



61

Q —  are the foremen sometimes Negroes?
A No, sir*

Q Always whit©?
A {Modeled to indicate affirmative reply)

ME* MORGANl Thank you, sir.

JUDGE RIFES: Yon may be excused, Mr* Barganier*

WITNESS: Thank you.
JUDGE RIFES: Gall your next witness*
ME.- MORGAN: Next witness is Mr* .J* H. Jackson*

aBeaBêeaBcaficaSi'̂GesScaSssSesfiufioSŝeafic

JOHN H. JACKSON, a Defendant, called as witness by the Plaintiffs, 

having been, duly sworn or affirmed, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATIONS

BY MR. MORGANS
Q State- your name for the record,, pleas®, sir?

A John H. Jackson.
Q And, Mr. Jackson, where do you reside?

1 Hayneville *

Q A M  what is your age?

A Fifty-seven-.
Q How long have you resided in Raynaville?

A All my life.
Q Did you go to school in Lowndes County?

A Yes, sir.
Q How far- did you go® sir?



62

A Finished high school®

Q Finished high school! what is your profession or business?
A Deputy Sheriff*

Q Deputy Sheriff?

A Yes, sir*

Q You are a Deputy Sheriff, and you are also a member of the Jury 
Gcffim.is.sion! is that correct?

A Yes, sir®
Q There M s  been some earlier testimony here, 1*11 restate it, 

counsel, of course,, might object to it, that the Sheriff had 
nothing to do —  perhaps my recollection is wrong «—  nothing to 
do with selection of jurorsf is that correct or is that incorrect? 
Does the Sheriff have anything to do with the selection of 
jurors* names in Lowndes. County, Alabama?

A lone at all#
Q But you are a Deputy Sheriff?

A Yes, sir®
Q Is that your only occupation?

A Yes, sir*
Q As a Deputy Sheriff, you know Lowndes County very well, donft 

you, sir?

A Pretty well.
Q And you could find legroes or white people pretty well in Lowndes | 

County if they lived there, couldnft you?

A Well, I know most of the County.



63

Q And xf you were charged with summonsing or subpoenaing Jurors, 
Negroes or whites, you would be able to find them, would you 
not, sir, you and the Sheriff?

A Yeah| if they was home, I am pretty sure I would find them*
Q If they were hose, you could find them* Kara you put the mamas 

of any Negroes in the —  in the jury box or on the jury rolls, 
on the lists in Lowndes County?

A Yes, sir*

Q How many, sir?

A I donft know exactly how many,

Q Bid you personally put any in?

A Yes, sir| I been putting them in ever since 1 been on it*
Q Can you tell m© how many you put in, say, at the last meeting?
A Not exactly, I couldn’t, to save my life*
Q More than ten?

A Yes, more than ten*
Q low, is that the total umber put is by you and others?

A No, that is by the Board*
Q And where did you «—  what was the source of the names that you 

had at that time, sir?
A Well, we went different beats and talked to business men, got 

principal of the school to get me up some names.

Q Is that principal of whit© school or Negro school?

A Colored school.
JUDGE ALLGOOD: Did you say principal —



64

WITSE8S S Colored *

JUDGE ALLGOGDi You said both schools?

WITNESSs Ho, I didn't go to the whit© school| I said 
we want to the business places where, they worked at*

JUDGE ALL GOOD s Excuse me *

Q You said they went to colored school?
A Yes, sir*

Q How long have yon been on the Jury Commission?

A Oh, I imagine nine or tea years| we was all appointed at the same
time*

Q All appointed, by Jim. Folsom?

A las, sir*

Q And all reappointed by Governor Wallace?

A Xes, sir| Governor Patterson*

Q And Governor Patterson, too?

A Tea., sir *
Q All right, air® Just prior to the Collie Leroy Wilkins second 

trial, did you refill the jury box is Lowndes County?

A Tesff sir*
Q Frost what source did the names that want back in the jury box 

at 'that tine coma?
A Well, the jury we had before, we put a good portion of them back 

in, that didn't serve, and Judge give us permission we could put 
them back, they would be eligible to serve on that Collins case*

Q Am- those the same -*•- the same set of names that served on the



65

trial of Thoms L* Coleman?

A They didn’t serve on the trial of anybody.

Q But they were names that were in the box and on the venire at 
that- time?

A Yes, sir*

Q Did you refill the box just prior to the trial of Thomas L» 
Coleman?

A I don’t remember how long it had been, but we had refilled it 
sine® we had Court back in the spring*

Q Ion attend Court often, do you not?
A 1 —  ©very time they have it.

Q Every time they have it?
A Yes, sir*.

Q What is the largest number of degrees you have ever seen on a 

venire in the Lowndes County court room?
A Well, 1 imagine this last one, we have bad. six up there, I think, 

this last Court.
Q That would be out of a total number of how many?

A How many, what you mean?
Q How many total people?

A Colored people?
Q Ho, all people, whit® and colored ones?

A If I ain’t mistaken, they probably had about sixty-five or 
seventy.

Q Sixty-five ©r seventy, and the largest number you have ever seen



66

ob the venire was six* and that was the last time* is that 
correct?

A Clodded to indicate affirmative .reply) les*
MR* MORGⅈ And 1 —  that’s all| thank you* sir* 
JUDGE RIVES s Any questions by the plaintiff **infc©r~

venor?
BT MR* KESSOHS
Q Mr* Jackson* we have looked at the records of the Lowndes County 

jury system* and as far as we can determine from, the records* 
there have been only six hundred and seventy persons who —  

individual parsons who have been called for jury service since 
1953® would you know anything about that?

A l imagine that is about right* I wouldn’t know* you know* we got 
a mighty small county*

Q To your' knowledge* do persons ©ver serve on the jury mors than 
once; in other words* are they likely to be called from year to 
year?

A Well —  we have had them* we- get than in the spring* and we 
catch them next fall, or something, not generally the same 
year| -sctaetiaes it happens they get caught both terms of Court* 
spring and fall*

Q .Fran the records that we have looked at* sir* it appears that 
some persons have served on the jury* have been called far jury 
service in Lowndes County since 1953 as many as sixteen times| 
would you know anything about that?



6?

A I couldn’t tell you the number of times they have been called, 
to save ay life*

Q So far as you know# that would be perfectly possible?
A It might be possible*

JUDOS RI¥ESt Is that since 1953 or ?60 — »
MS* MESSOMs Since 1953, your honor«
JUDGE RXVSSt 1953*

Q Are. names aver la the jury box more than once at tbs same time?
A If it is, it is- a mistake! not supposed to be*

Q So that if a person's name appears os a venire in the fell term

of Court in one year, and then again in the spring term of Court 

the following year, it would indicate to you that you would have 
filled the box in between?

A That*8 right! would have to*

G Gan you give a® an estimate of how often you fill the jury box 
in Lowndes County?

A Wall, most of the time about twice a year, and we get by a heap 

of times just one© a year*

Q If you refill the box twice a year, that means you would be 

refilling it before each tern of Court during the year?
A That’s right* unless something special corse up*

Q In filling the box, do you exclude classes of people because of 

their occupation?
A Ho*

G Do you exclude school teachers?

A Well, we haven’t ever put any os there sine© we have been there.



6g

Q Has that been a purposeful exclusion, or is that just something 

that happens?
1 That is purpose exclusion with the whits and colored, because 

they was teaching school, and we didsft see where w@ ought to 

put them on the jury*

Q Sir, could I ask you to speak & little louder?

A 1 say we never did pat a teacher on there, because they was always 

at school, and we just leave tk m  off, white and colored*

Q How about ministers?

A 1 m m r  have had one of them*
MB* HSSSOIs Thank you, Mr* Jackson.

JUDGE E27BS* Gentlemen, any questions for the
defendants.?

GROSS EIAMimTIOIS
BI MR* BRADLETs
Q Mr* Jackson, do you have anything to do with the ©election of 

oases to go on the. jury venires that are used in the Courts 

down there?

A Ho, sir.
MR# BRiU3LEl8 That'fs all.

BI ME. CODES
Q Mr. Jackson, the. —  Sheriff Ryals doesn*t have anything fee do 

with the selection of jurors, does ha?

A Hone whatsoever.
Q All right, siri ho didnffc have anything to do with your



69

appointment as a Jury Ooimlasioner?
A N©2 sirf he did not,

ME* SOLE| That*3 ail| thank you,

JUDGE EIVBS! Ton can be excused, Mr# Jackson «—  any
further questions?

WH#.: MORGANS Yes, sir,

REDIRECT EXAMINATION:
m  MR, MCE GAM2

Q You said you had nothing to do with the names on the jury venire 
list other than being a Commission©:!:-?

A We put them in there, we put them in the box* and after that we 
dem^b have anything else to do#

Q All right, you do have - I want to ask you one question, sirf 

you are a Deputy Sheriff, I am sure you know something about 
politics in Lowndes County?

A Mighty, little,

Q You ~~ you do know generally the voting population of Lowndes 
County?

A Yes, sir*
Q Were there any Negro voters in Lowndes ■ County prior to January 

1, 1965?
A There was not,

MR, MORGAN! Thank you, sir,

MR* BESSON: Could I ask one more question?

JUDGE RIVES: Just a moment, Mr* Jackson*



70

BY ME* SBSSGSl
Q 0a@ more question, Mr* Jackson; prior to —  prior to this year, 

what did you use as a source for names in choosing the jury — * 

k We used — *

Q —  persons?

k We used the Toting list, just picked out seme we personally know 
and put in there*

Q How would you obtain the voting, list?
A 3© back to the Probate office and get it*

Q You would go down the hall in the court room in the Court 
House to the Probate office? 

k You know as such about that Court House, as I know*
Q And during the seating, how would that , list foe used? 

k Well, we just look over it and see the- ones that was eligible 
to sit on there, on the jury, and pick out a few and put them 
in there; we never did try to put too many in the jury box, 
because we never did need many jurymens*

Q s© that you put —  you put enough names in the jury box to supply 
the upcoming demand for jurors?

4 Thatfa right*
Q About how many names would you say you put in the jury box at 

the time?
4 I© try to put anywhere from two hundred fifty on up, probably 

two seventy-five.
Q Well, in an upcoming session of Court, you would only require



71

on® hundred and ten veniremen?
A leg, sir.

Q And sixty for the first week, fifty for the second week?
A (loddad to indicate affirmative reply)

Q How, if you were going to supply just the demand for that week, 
for that term, would you still put two hundred fifty parsons in 
the box?

A ¥@11, at times we have put over a hundred in there*
Q Just at times you have put just — .

A We just put what we think we can get by with, and let it go*

Q In the meeting, would somebody read through the qualified voters 
list?

A Ho, we just put it down there and look it over*

Q X©u just put it in the middle of the table?

A Put it where sane of us could see, and we call them out.
Q Just run down the names?

A (nodded to indicate affirmative, reply) That,:s right*

Q How would you fee sure that you wares*t putting & m m  in the jury 
hex which m s  already there?

A Hell, we ~~ we know which ones are out, when they draw thorn cut, 
and if we —  alter Court is over, w© liable to put them right 
tack in, if .we have to fill it before the fall Court*

Q When you are. asked to refill the jury box, there are. usually some 
names left in it, aye there not?

A lea, sir*



72

Q About bow isany names ar© usually is the bos?

A 1 couldn’t tsll you h m  many would b@ left in. it* I told you* 

we put anywhere from two hundred fifty, seme time two seventy-five „ 
that as many as ever is in it*

Q When you begin the refilling process, there were usually just 
a few rnaes left in the jury box to start with?

A That’s right; 1 don’t know how many*

Q low, for instance, suppose that in the jury box there is the 

card of John Shanahan, and then you go through the qualified 
voters list to find the names of qualified jurors., how do you 
keep track of the fact that John Shanahan is already in the box 
so as sot to put him. in twice?

A Well, I couldn’t answer that, because. 1 don’t know as we ever 

got two names in there, but we generally keep up with them 

somehow pretty well*

Q Bo you have any method of setting out on the table before you 

the cards that are in the box?
A We don’t —  we don’t bother that box .at .all*

Q ton don’t? j
A We give write the cards, the Clerk takes them and fixes them 

and do whatever she have to do with them and puts them in the 
box*

Q Can you tell a© what materials are usually present in the jury 

recta during your Heatings, what books, what records?
A Oh, I don’t know; they got —  she got bar book, got to get the



73

names and cards and everything, writ© them cards, yon got the 

M i e s  and address and occupation on the card, she takes than, 
fixes up whatever sh& have to fix up*

Q Mow, how do you get the same, address, and occupation^ where do 

you «•“ what .source do you use to know to knew that?
A Well, 1 happen to know practically everybody in the- County*

Q lea?
k I been working there in the Sheriff»s office about twenty years., 

and I pretty well ’m o w  them*

Q So in the Uury Commissioners* room with you, you &oa*t have the 

Jury box?

A Mo, sir*
Q Do you have the cards that used to be in: the Jury box?

A ¥© got. take, little cards in there and fill them out.*.
Q Those ars blank cards?
A T h a t r i g h t *
Q Do you. ever use cards which .have been filled out before?
A Unless some special occasion oca© up where we have to put a few 

names ia for special occasion when the box wouldn*t have enough 

jurymens ia. it, we h a w  used seme of them*,
Q Sou have used son© of the cards that were used *»~

A That*s .right*

Q in the box before 
A Clodded to indicate affirmative reply)

Q *— ■ and you replaced them in there?



74

A That-*s right*

MR* KESSONs Thank you*

MR* MORGANS One —

JUDGE EI¥ESs Any further questions of this witness?
If not, you may be excused, Mr* Jackson#

MR* MORGANS lour honor, stay I ask two quick questions? 
JUDGE EI¥ES« All right*

BY MR* MORGANS
Q You say your Court in recent session —  am 1 not. correct in the 

Collie Leroy Wilkins trial, one hundred a m  Jurors were in the 
venire, and one Negro appeared?

A On© appeared?

Q lea?
A No, I said it was six*
Q No, I an talking about the first Collie Leroy Wilkins trial, not 

the last cm2

A 1 don’t remember what happened back then*

Q Do you recall the Theses L, Coleman trial.?

A las, air*
Q Be you recall that the —  approximately sixty jurors were 

summoned then?
A Yes, sir*
Q And that no Negroes were summoned?
A No | you are wrong*

Q Were there some?



A A Negro gat on th© grand jury that indicted his*
Q 1 am talking about the petit trial, the trial jury venire?
A 1 am talking, about — < you asked about Thomas Coleman trial,, a 

negro eitting on the grand jury that indicted T d u  
Q I understand!- 1 understand*

A Yes*

Q low, at the time of the trial of Thomas Coleman, of the people 

•who cams and the venire for the trial jury, was that approximately 
sixty people?

A I don’t remsmberf I think it was, but ■-«-

Q And no Negroes wer© called at that timet

A 1 don’t remember, whether it was any or not.

Q Ion would remember, would you not, sir, b© sore likely to 
remember if there were Negroes called?

A if there was any on the jury, but very seldom we ever have Court, 
don’t be two, or three or four.

Q Thomas.-1* Coleman was on that venire, was he not, sir?

A Yes* sir*
ME.*, MORGANS Thank you.

JUDGE RIVESs You may be excused, Mr* Jackson. Call

your next witness.

Ill* MORGANS Kelly D. Coleman*

P&LY p» OQLM&S. & Defendant, called as witness by the Plaintiffs,



76

DIRECT EXAMINATIONS

Bf MR* MORGAN;

Q What is your name, pleas©, ma»m? 

k Kelly Coleman*
Q And your middle initial, do you have —

A B*| nil, huh*

Q B*| you reside where?
A At Hayneville»

Q Bayas'ville, Alabama?

A In Lowndes. County*

Q low, are you married?
A 3!@s®

Q And. your husband’s name?

A Goby C *
Q And what ia your husband*© business or profession?

A Cafe *

Q And your occupation or position?

A Circuit Clerk*
Q As *»- Circuit Clerk of Lowndes County, Alabama?

A las, sir*
Q And as such, you are also Cleric of the Jury Commission in Lowndes 

County, are you not, ma*a?
A las*
Q The local eafa that you —  you help your husband run that 

cafeteria?



77

A lea®

Q Doss it serve Negroes?

A Yes®

Q It has served Hegross?

A Ever sine® we have bean in business*

Q Does it serve them along with —  with whites?

A They have separate entrance, separate compartments*

Q Yes, ma’m. Your —  I believe you testified in your deposition 

on pages thirteen and fourteen that it was -- you lived in a 

small county, and that —  and the Commissioners knew everyone 

on the voting list, I —  I would be happy to provide you with a 

copy of the deposition, but mine is in the mail some place, and 

I don’t have it, if you would lik© to review now your deposition 

or have it ia front of you*

A I don’t have a copy.

ME* MORGANS If someone has got. & copy of it, I would 
love to see it* May I borrow it?

JUDGE RIVES: Why don’t you just ask her the questions.

Q I thought you perhaps would want to refresh your recollection.
A I just soon ask the questional I don’t car® to look at it| 1 

answered it the best I could*
Q Sure; I know that. It is a small county, and the Jury ComalSvSion 

knows just about everybody in the county, do they not?

A That’s right*

Q And you do, too?



76

A A good many., moat of the white people| I won't say that for 
colored people*

Q How, for the colored people, ma’ia, do you have *-» you know there 

are are many colored, people in the county who are Qualified 
for jury duty and jury service, do you not?

A Well, 1 just don’t know them, really*.

Q Just don’t know, anything about them at all?

A lot many of them, just the ones, right around me, local people*

Q. Bat many of them, are in- positions of trust or are employed ia 
homes of white people ««*

A Xss*

Q with respect to their children and perhaps serve as rs&ids *»»
A That’s right*

Q and help out around the house ~~

A Clodded to indicate affirmative. reply)
Q **« and work as domestic servants and other types of «*-*

A Tea*

Q Fin©,* Would you explain what goes on in the select ion of 
jurors and what your duties and functions are with respect to 
the Jury Commission?

A Well, I hav® been there such a short time that 1 really don’t 
feel that 1 m  qualified to explain exactly what is supposed to 
be done* We set one day and went through th© voter list and 
selected, names, and made th® cards for them, and 1 put than on 
the jury roll® low, is there any question, I mean any more



79

detail?
MR. MORGAHs Ro, ma*mg: that*s fine*

JOB CIS RI1ESS Is that all, Mr* Morgan?

MR*. MGRGAHs (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply) 

JUDGE EI?lSl Any questions by the intervener plaintiff? 
ME*- lESSOKs Tour honor, at this tine I would like to 

offer scete Inhibits for the Government, They are records of the 

Lowndes County Jury — ■ well, they pertain to the Lowndes County jury 

selection process* I believe that the Court has been provided with 

our list of Exhibits*

JUDGE RIVESs You want to offer those before you 
essamlne Mrs* Coleman?

SR*. llSSOffs Tea, your honor; I would like to do that 

so I could refer to thorn in the course of ay examination*

JUDGE RIVES5 All right-, airg unless there, is sene 

objection, they will be received in evidence*

MR* HALLg Your honor,, me stipulated with the 

Government that they can offer copies of the current jury cards, 

eurre.nt Lowndes County jury roll, the Lowndes County jury roll for 
*53 to 'f65.g; and the Lowndes County jury roil, fall of ~f39 to fall of 
*45* A M  we are not interested in or as far as the Jury 

Gcaiissioners are concerned, in the civil minute book* Mr* Cole might 
have something to say with regard to that-# And anything pertaining 

to the records of the Jury Commission, we have stipulated the copies 

a%  be introduced in evidence#



go

JUDGE RIVES£ All right® Very well® Those are 

what you hair© stipulated may be admitted® How, if you will, as 

you introduce them, specify what —  what you are introducing®

ME* IBSSOMs Certainly, your honor* First, your 

honor, the. cards which are currently in the jury box of Lowndes 
County.

JUDGE RIFESi All right, sir#

JUDGE JOMSOls What .amber i s  th a t?

'THE CLERKs 1, Fl&infciff-Intervener *s 1.

JUDGE SlfESi It will be marked Exhibit 1, Plaintiff-
Intervener *

MR*- USSGfs Tbs, sir| it is that* Secondly is the 
current Lowndes County jury roll, which I offer and ask to be marked 
as Exhibit number 2*

JUDGE RIVESJ All right.

THE CISRKs Plaint Iff~Intervenor»a Exhibit number 2® 
JUDGE RIFES£ It may fee received in evidence*

MR* HlSSGHs Third -are- the jury roll books used 

between 1953 and 19651, these are not the current jury roll books, 
and X ask to .have those marked as Exhibit number 3«

Till CLERK! Plaintiffelntervenorfe Exhibit number 3* 
JUDGE RIVES1 It will be received in evidence®

MR* HESSOls Fourth, the Lowndes County jury roll for 
bhe .years 1939 ho 1945, which I ask to b© marked as- Exhibit and 
offer it to the Court*



61

TUB OLERKs Plaintiff-In,ter s Exhibit a m b e r  4*

JUDGE EIYESs It may be received- in evidence* I 

presume those are copies of the documents you are referring to?
.ME*- lESSGIfs That, is correct, your honor*
JUDGE - EXCESS A M  there is no objection to the 

introduction of any of those documents?

1 *  HALLS; Ho objection*

ME.*. lESSGlt, How, Mr* Hall, has stated that he has no 

objection to these, but that the other documents we have d© not 

concern him,. and I have spoken to Mr* Cole about using our copies 

of these documents ■**«•
ME.*: COLE; If© are agreeable on your representation 

tint they are full and complete copies of all of the documents- that 

they purport, to be that- you introduce*
MR* SlSSGHl Fine, lumber 5,. 1 offer 'the civil ~~ 

copy of the civil minute book of Lowndes County from 1953 to 1.964® 
THE OIMKs FlalntifY^Intervenor*® Exhibit number 5* 
JUDGE RIVES- What- do you mean by civil minute books? 

the minutes of the Court?
ME* SE3S0NS lour honor —
JUDGE RIVESt Civil dockets?
MR. NE8S0N: lea, sir; these are the records of the 

Court which contain venire lists for the civil week, that is, the 

first week of the Court during these times —

JUDGE RIVES* Yes, sir*



MR* NESSCH: —  and they also include records pertain- jlj

lag to the cages that were dealt with during that week® |

JUDGE ROTS: All right, sir* That is amber 5?

THE CLERKS las, sir.

JUDGE RIVES: All .right,, it nay be received in evidence* j

MR* WESSON? lour honor, tie offer as Exhibit number 6 

the civil minute book ©£ .Lowndes County from 1923 through March 23,
1953*

JUDGE E m S s  low, that is tbs minute book of the 

Circuit Court —
MR,# NESSOMs Tea, sir*.
JUBCSS E1¥E8S ■—  in Lowndes County civil cases?

MR* BESSON: Xes, your- honor.

JUDGE RIVES: All right, sir*
, I

THE CLERKS Plaintiff-Intervenerfs Exhibit number 6.

JUDGE RIVES: It say be received in evidence.*;
MR. WESSON: Tour honor, we offer the State minute j 

book, that is the minute book which records the proceedings during 

the criminal week of the Court, including the venire lists for that 

week and. the records of proceedings* We offer the State minute book 

which covers the. period, Marsh 17® 1952, to April 17» 1964# and ask 

that it be marked, as Exhibit number 7*
JUDGE RIVES* And that refers, also, to the Circuit

Court?
MR® WESSONl Tea, your honor*



THE GLBlKj Plaintiff-Intervener *s Exhibit number 7* 

JUDGE RIVES* It may be received in evidence*

ME* HESSGHi lour honor, we offer the State minute 
book covering the period, October 5, 1936, to September 17, 1951, 
and ask that it be marked as Exhibit number &*

THE CLERKs Plainfciffelnfcervanor*s Exhibit number fl* 

JUDGE RIVES 1 And that pertains to the Circuit Coart 
of Lowndes County?

MR* IBSSOii It does, your honor| excuse me* Tour 

honor, we offer the minutes of ‘Jury Gosamissioa meetings co%feriag 

the. period, November 15, 1909, to Jane 18, 1939, and ask that it be 

marked as Exhibit 9-Af at the same time, we would like to offer as 

Exhibit 9-B. a notice to the Jury Commissi on dated February 18, 1913, 

Srm the Circuit Judge directing- the Jury Commission to refill the 
box,., and ask that it be narked as Exhibit $-B*

JUDGE RXVKSs It may be received in evidence. If 
bbar© are m y objections, now,, gentleman, note that*

I®*. HALL? That last one, your honor, that goes beyond 

the scope of this case, something I dida*t knew about until 1 just- 
got through reading this list here* The attempt on the part of the 

plaintiffs and the intervening plaintiffs is to go back fifty years | 
this goes beyond fifty years*

JUDGE RITESf Well, you want to look at the Exhibit 
aai so® what —  whether you want to make seme objection?

MR. HALLs I would like to look at it*



34

JUDGE RIVES £ The parties have had an opportunity to 
esamin© these Exhibits* I presume, have they not?

MR®. IBSSOIfs Yes, your honorf I spoke to two opposing 

counsel., -and asked Mr. Ball what records he would like* what copies 

of records he would like us to —  have sent to him, and sent hi® 

t!i® records which he requested! I don^t believe that this, was one 
of the records he requested*

MB* HALLi Ho, sir;. that —  I never have seen it, and 

in fact, I didn't know anything about this one before. Goes, back 

to 1913, I think that is going too far $ m  want to object to that 
om — 1913s rather#

MR* HESSCHs Your honor, X of far this to indicate what 
sort of records should be. kept by a Jury Commission and what records 

in fact, leapt in Lowndes County by the Jury Commission in years 
past*. We asked, for those .records for present, times and found they 
ware unavailable*

.JUDGE .RIVESs Well, when you .gentlemen got through. 
s»iaiug them., you will have to let the Court s m  the® s© we will 
knotf what, they are, ourselves®

MR:*' BALL.* Yes, sir#
(Exhibit passed to Court)

Ml.*, FLCMEKS* Your honor, we withdraw the objection® 

.MR*. HALLs We withdraw the. objection.
JUDGE RIVES: You withdraw the objection?

ME* HALLS Yes., sir*



JUDGE aifSSs All right, gentlemen, this may be 

received in evidence5 objection is withdrawn.

MR* MESSON: lour honor, we offer as Exhibit 10 the

names ©£ registered voters in Lowndes. County covering years 1932$ 
1933, 1935 through *48, 1950 to I960.

THE CLERK: Plaintiff~Intervenor#;s Exhibit number 10
JUDGE RITES 1 It may be received in- .evidence,

gentlemen.
MR* HBSSGKs Your honor, we- offer and ask to have 

marked as Exhibit number 11 the alphabetical poll lists of Lowndes 

County covering the years.1931 to 194? and 1959 to 1965.
THE CLERKS Plaintiff*-Interv©n.orf© Exhibit number 11 

JUDGE SITES: It may be received, in evidence*

ME* HBSSQ1* lour honor, we offer as Exhibit number

12 the current registration lists and poll tax record of Lowndes 

County •
THE CLERK: Pl&intiff-Inbervenor? s Exhibit number 12

JUDGE RITESS It say b© received in evidence®

ME,*. WESSON: lour honor, m  offer as Exhibit number

13 venire lists for fall, 1964, and spring and fall, 1965® low, at 

present there is one of the fall venire lists which is sot in this 

Exhibit, and w® would like to put it in evidence later on this 

afternoon*
JUDGE BITES s- Why ***» why is it not included now?
MB* 1ESSGIS I aa afraid that it is simply a ~



S6

mechanical difficulties* your honor*.

JUDGE RITES: Unless there is seme objection* it may
be received la evidence#

TUB CLEEK.S Plaintiff-Intervener*'® Exhibit a m b e r  13 * 

MR* BESSOJJ: T o m  honor* because the. records, in this 

ease are somewhat voluminous, and because they don*t really respond 
to an instant analysis* we have, prepared a notebook for use by the 

Court and by opposing counsel in which we have made a preliminary 

analysis of these records and tried to explain wfcat they .are and what 

they show* and we offer these as an aid to the Court in this case* 

JUDGE SlflSl You offering those- in evidence?
MB* IBSSGls Ho* we do not*

JUDGE ROTES: You are just simply offering those as 
«a aid to the Court sod counsel —

ME* IESSOII; That is correct*

JUDGE SITESs —  examining them* Tory well* gentlemen* 
happy to have, them*

ME* HBSSOHs I our honor* if 1 could talcs just one 
hore moment with this, notebook* I would like to tell you what we 
have tried 'to do in it* Tbs notebook is divided into four parts*

JUDGE RIVES: All right*
IS*. IIESSOIis In the first part —

JUDGE ROTS: Just a moment| I I think when you
get through we will take a short recess,- and I am going to let Mrs* 
Ctlemaa go back and resume the stand after- you have finished, she



87

can resume^ you may go hack, Mrs.* Coleman* and rest* When you get 

through with this explanation.* w@ will take a short recess* but not 

a. recess for lunch yet* ill right* sir*
MR* IBSSOIfs The notebook is divided into four parts* 

The first part consists primarily of a description of the records 

relating to the jury selection process in Lowndes County* In part 

two we have attempted to match the venire lists for each term of 

Court with the qualified voters list for the preceding year in 

Lowndes Gouahy? and from that matching* we have determined that 

there is a ninety-eight per cent correlation, of names that can be 

found on the venire, lists which can also b© found on the qualified 

voters, list for- the year preceding* In part three we have attempted 

to set out the records which indicate that the voting structure of 

Lomadea County has M m  entirely white before March of this year*

Aad in part four*. we have focused on the years 1953 to 1965» and 

sad© a detailed analysis of the persons who have served, on the 
juries* providing a chart- showing, when each person nerved* the 

amber of times he. served* The purpose of this section is to 
describe the very small number of persons who have comprised the 
pool of people from whom juries for Lowndes County -have 'bees 
selected over the ten years period* Also as part of that section*, 

m  M m  provided a chart which, indicates when the jury box was 

filled during the last twelve .years* determined by analysing when 

cases appeared on one term and then appeared again os the next tern* 

indicating that there m s  a refilling in between® Thank you* your



honor*
JUDGE s i t e s :

about a seven minuets recess

Gentleman, we will take at this time 

and after that we will hold until about

oas o*clock 'before we recess for lunchi take at this time a seven

minute recess*
(At which bia©:, II 1 4S a*m*s a recess was had until 

11:55 a.su, at which time the trial continued)
JUDGE ROTS? Be seated, gentlemen. Mr* lesson, you 

want Mrs* Coleman back on the stand?
MR* 8B8SQJJ: Tea, your honor 1 I do*
JUDGE ROTS* Mrs.* Coleman, if you will, cose back,

pl.iJS.SS «
(Witness Kelly D. Coleman returned to stand)
MR. WESSONS Could I ask you for Exhibit rniab er 3 

Exhibit number 2?

BI MR* WESSON:
Q. Mrs* Coleman, when did you become Clerk?
A August 16 of this year*
Q You took over from Mr# Marietta ?

A That*s right.
Q Could you tell us why lie retired?

A Because of his health*
Q Has he been wall enough to help you get started in your new job? 
A Whan he felt Ilka it, yes, ha has been a great helps I will say



69

Q Mas he able to show you how to handle the various records •*•**

A Yes*
Q when problems arose?

A Yes, he was*

Q And was. he able, to show yon the procedures of the Jury Commission?
A Well, 1 —  1 just can’t remember; I was a little blind on that 

part, but I understood it wasn’t much to it, just to go in and 

make up the cards and decide on who to put in the box*

Q Hava you jmrtieipated in any meetings of Jury Commissioners?

A Only just since I have been in there*

Q les?
A Uli, huh*

Q There was *—  how many meetings have there bees since you became 

Clerk?
A Well, actually, 1 believe there has been **■=* you would const it 

three.

Q Were you present at all three meetings?
A Ho.

Q Which ones were, you present at?

A The first and the last.*

Q Ion were present at the last meeting?
A les*. Well, it. wasn’t a mooting, really § it was —  we wore going 

to have to draw a lot of names for the special case, and the 

Judge felt like there were not enough names in the box, so he 

asked three of us to get together and put them in. there, and that



90

was between five o’* clock in the afternoon and the next morning 
when Court would start over again, so we used the venire that 

we already had, excluding the men that warn drawn to serve*
Q Was that before the Wilkins trial?

A That*3 right*

Q And the venire that you referred to was the venire for the 

Coleman trial or the ««• it was the venire for the week during 
which. --«•

A 1 believe it was; uh, huh; after that jury was drawn, we used the 
balance of those names and put. back in the box*

Q And those cards were simply replaced, the same cards that had 
been in the box before?

A That?* right.#- So 1 don't know whether you-would call that a 
meeting or- just as order by the Judge to refill the box or what*

Q Gan you tell me what materials you l a w  present during a Jury 
Commission meetings the first on© that you attended?

A We- had the little cards,, we had the voter lists, in the Probate 
office, and there were several other names discussed that we put- 
in there- that were not on the voter list, 1 believe.*

Q Were there any other lists present; for instance, did the Jury 
Commissioners bring, into the meeting with them any lists of 
persons?

A Speaking of the first?

^ las, the first meeting?
A If they had & list, I don't know; I seas I didn't as© one®



91

Q Were there any church lists present or any club lists or any 
organisation lists?

A lot that I know of#

Q Any City Directories?

A We don’t have any City Directories*

Q Was there any lists ©f credit companies, power companies?
A Ho.

Q Wo lists whatsoever in the meeting except the qualified voters 
list?

A That’s all#

Q For the preceding year?

A That I know of, and with the exception of a couple of names 1 
think we discussed and maybe put la the box*

Q Can yon describe for me how the meeting opened! how does- it begin?
A Well,, we usually meet is the Board of Revenue office, and the 

three Gaomissioners and I just gat together in there and just 
start working,

Q that does the work consist of?
A Reviewing the names and making the cards*

Q Does someone read the- qualified voters list?
A lea,

Q A M  when the names are read from the qualified voters list —

A We discuss them, or they do, aad I usually sake the cards for 
thm*

® If nothing is k s m n  about a person whose name appears on the



92

qualified voters list, would you put hi® in the box, or would you, 
assume ho m s  not qualified and keep him out of the bos?

A W®lls the three Commissioners know practically everybody in the 
county| therefor©, between the three of them, they would usually 
know them#

Q If nothing is known bad about a persons even though there may 
not be a great deal of good known about him, would he be put in 
the box?

A I believe so|- I a® not familiar enough with these meetings9 n m $ 
to tell you just what they would do®

Q D© you have- the jury roll book in the Jury Commission meeting 
with you?

A 1 can?b. remember whether I had it on that first meeting or not*
I —  they did have it the second meeting, the second meeting 
that I was not. attending,*

Q Tour procedure and Mr# Marietta %  procedure before you, as he 
instructed you, was to fill out the cards first and than follow­
ing the Jury Commission meeting record the cards in the roll 
book?

A On the rolls' tbat̂ s right*
Q Mrs* Coleman, I show you oar Exhibit number 2, which is entitled 

the current Lowndes County jury rolls could you tell me when this 
roll. was. mad® up?

A I just- really death knew the •dates now, really, 1 have no idea, 
but it ims been since I have been in office*



93

Q It was you that prepared this book?

k I prepared the bo©k| uh, hull*

Q Would you describe ■*—
A And the system *

Q Would you describe for the Court how this book differs from the 
preceding jury rolls?

A We: had twenty-one beats in the county, and the roll was kept by 

beats*.. But now we ham voting machines, and .we have consolidated 
the beats, and therefore, w® decided to use the om  book instead 

of four, 1 believe it was, and list these names alphabetically 
and put .the precinct number .on the side*.

Q So that before you made up tills book, there .used to be *-**
A About four*

Q — * an. alphabetical listing for each separate beat in the county?

A $haf*a right,, maybe just one. name under- each listing or each 

.alphabetical letter*

Q I show you page fifteen of the Exhibit, which is the page os 

which the M %  appear| do you recognise the handwriting at the 
top of tbs. page?

A It is mine*.

Q Bo you recognise the handwriting of the names at the bottom of 

tbs page.?
A Well, 1 can recognise it by what they the Commissioners told 

me, and that is Crook, Bruce Qrook*
Q This is the. handwriting of Brace Greek?



94

A Yes#

Q Mm, during that -Jury Commission meeting, w ® »  yon present?

A 1 was not | 1 understood we w@r@ going to meet in the afternoon, 

and it was just a misunderstanding,, so 1 case up here to 
Montgomery .and got back after lunch to meet with then, and i'mj 
had already been in*

Q So that that masting started sometime in the morning and was 

finished by lunch time when you returned frost Montgomery?

A las* Or after lunch time when I returned back to the Court House®
Q During the first meeting at which you were present, h m  much

discussion was there of names when they case up for consideration?

A Well, it depended on h m  well they knew the party that they were 

discussing* They —  they just know everybody,- so it really 
doea&tt need too much discussion*

Q So generally a name coses up ~~
A They can go pretty fast with them*

Q A mm® c a e s  up, and it is usually put immediately in the box 
©r not put immediately in the box?

A Well, yeah, or either they will talk about I don*t know about 

whether he is employed out of' the county or whether iie-% away 
from the county, moved away, or just sane discussion that sight 

come up about it*
Q But you would describe the process as very fast moving?

A Fairlyi yeah*

Q Mrs* Coleman, are you -aware of any instructions that the Jury



95

Commission received between the time that you became Clerk and 

the time that they refilled the box before the Wilkins trial 

telling the® that the rolls had to have some Kegro names on it?

A Ho, but X think after this suit case up, maybe, the Jury

Commissioners decided that sine© it was all about ttrnfe that they 

would go ahead aad add sane, if that is what they wanted.*

Q So in «« in year — . it is your understanding that it was this 
■suit which prompted 

A That probably.

Q -*** the Jury Commission, the Commissioners to go out into the 

county —

A fiat is what what they were discussing for, so I think they maybe 

decided that it would be best to go ahead and put s m s  on*

MR* lESSOIls That’s all the questions that I have,

your honor*.
JUDGE RIVESs Mrs# Coleman, say I ask you§ you usually 

tars about two terns of Court a year over in Lowndes County, don’t 

you?

WITNESSs Xes, sir| ©very year#
JUDGE RIVESs Can you tell us about when the next. 

term of Court will be?

WITNESSi It will be in the spring, and 1 believe 

April, if I am not badly mistaken*

JUDGE RIVESS In April?

WITNESS s Sci&ewher© *



96

JUDGE RITES.? All right, ma^iag all right, raa%u .Any

questions by the defendants?

MR* BRADLEYS Yes, sir,

GROSS EXAMINATIONS
BY IIS, BRADLEYS

Q Mrs* Coleman, you stated that you ware the Clerk of the Circuit 
Court of Lowndes County, Alabama?

A tm»

Q k m  you also the Ex Officio Clerk of the County Court of Lowndes 

County,. Alabama?

A Yes*

Q low, in that capacity, are you the custodian of the records of 

both of those Courts?

A Yes,

Q Raya you had occasion recently to examine those records as far 

as the criMisa.1 records of those Courts are concerned?

A Well, we did make a little examination of them just more or less 

for curiosity,

Q About hew far back did you go in making that examination, please, 
ma.%?

A Back to 1945*
Q 1945, low, that would be about twenty years, would it not?
A Xes.
Q low, during that period of time, could yon give the Court sen© 

idea of how many Negroes had been convicted in the Circuit Court



97

of Lowndes County of criminal charges?

A 1 can’t remember the exact figures, but it was somewhere about two 

hundred and thirty-five or forty, I believe, somewhere in the 

neighborhood of that.

Q low, what about white —  white?

A And the white?
Q Yes, raa’m?

A Very few, less than twenty-five, I believe, and that included 

whites that didn’t even live in the county.

Q All right, what —

A Out of county.

Q What about the County Court of Lowndes County, please, ma’m, as 
far as negroes are concerned?

A There were about fourteen hundred some odd, I can’t remember 

exactly what the figure was.

Q And how many whites, please, ma’a?
A I believe somewhere between sixty and eighty, maybe, on the 

whites.
Q All right.

MR, MORGANS We object to that and sov© 'to —

JUDGE RIVESs What you are asking about is people who

have been convicted of offenses?
MR, BRABLEIs Yes, sir; criminal offenses in the

county.

MR, MORGANS les, sir



9g

MR# BRADLEYS Lowndes County, Alabama*

MR. MORGANS W® object to this and move to exclude 

it on the following grounds! That the evidence as given does not 

talk in terns of whether the people were repeaters, whether they 

were natives of Lowndes County, whether they lived in Lowndes County, 

whether the Negroes that were talked about or others who wer® being 

convicted of crimes resided there, whether they didn’t reside there, 

apparently been no study mad® of that point, made of that, and 1 

think consequently the rel©vaace of the testimony is not proper? 

and also, the best evidence would b® the records, themselves®

JUDGE RIVES: Well, admittedly, the testimony would

be subject to discount for the point you ar© making, but we take 

the evidence for what it is worth and overrule the objection®
MR. BILLINGSLEY: Your honor, excuse me; the best

evidence test would be the records, and best evidence —  we also 
object on the ground that the best evidence would be the records® 

JUDGE RIVES: Well, we overrule the objection, take

it for whatever it is worth®
MR. BILLINGSLEY! All right.

MR. BRADLEY: That’s all, your honor.

JUDGE RIVES! Mrs. Coleman, so far as juries are 

concerned, you use juries in the Circuit Court?

WITNESS: Yes, sir.
JUDGE RIVES: Do you us® any juries ia the County

Court?



99

WITNESS! No, sir.

JUDGE RIYBSi Just in Circuit Court —

WITNESS % Circuit Court*

■JUDGE RIVES! —  is the only Court in which juries
are used?

WITNESS! la3, sir.

JUDGE HIVESi All right® loti use some in the Probate 
Court occasionally, ia sanity cases, inquests?

WITNESSi Judge, I just donft know? I haven’t been
there.

JUDGE RIVES! Have you had occasion to see any —  
WITNESS! No, sir| no, sir.

JUDGE RIVESs “«* used there? But Circuit Court is 

the main one- which has juries used —

WITNESSl Tea, sir.

JUDGE RIVES! criminal cases entirely?

WITNESS! Yes, sir.
JUDGE RIVESI All right, ma*a, that’s all.

REDIRECT EXAMINATIONS

HI MR. MORGAN !

Q Mrs. Coleman, you can be Clerk of the Circuit Court and Clerk

of the Jury Commission, but you can’t serve os the jury, yourself, 

can you,, under Alabama law?

A No, air; I don’t think so*
MB# MORGAN; At this time, your honor, I would Ilk®



100

to offer as Plaintiffs? Exhibit 1 the Alabama Directory of the 

Stats Officials*
THE CLERKs Plaintiffs* Exhibit umber 3.®
MS*. MORGANS State and local officials included in it* 

JUDGE RIVESs If no objection —

MR# MORGANS I will introduce that in evidence*
JUDGE RIVES2 All right% it may be received in 

evidence* marked Exhibit number 1*
Q Are you a relative of Thomas- L* Coleman by blood or marriage?

A les*
Q What is your relationship to him?

A He is my husband ¥s half first cousin* if you want —
Q Right. The study that you made going back on criminal records 

in the county «***

A les.
Q » how did you sake that study?
A l didn’t really make a study! we just went through the pages 

and ■—  and marked the convictions as to whether they were white 

or colored* thinking it sight have some bearing on the case, or 

might help us.
Q So all the records that are kept there ar© kept apparently on a 

racial basis, also?
A So#
Q Then how could you tell whether it was Negro or white?

A I wouldn’t have known! Luck Jackson has been there for that long*



101

and he knew, and then I think he referred to the jail records 
to find out whether they war© white or not®

Q So someone sis© actually had the knowledge?
A Tes, sir®

Q And you did not have the knowledge, yourself, personally®

ME* MORGANt 1 move to exclude the evidence previously 
given on that ground.

JUDGE EI¥ESl Gentlemen, the evidence is of very 
slight relevance, but the Court will take it for what it may be 

worth; objection overruled. Any further questions of this witness?

MR* HESSOHs Tes, your honor please.

JUDGE RIVES2 Mr® lesson*

B? MR. NESSON:

Q Mrs. Coleman, to your knowledge, hag there been any significant 

change of policy in the way juries are selected in Lowndes 

County by reason of your having become Clerk as opposed to Mr® 

Marlette having been Clark?

A I donft know of any; 1 mean, 1 think it*s don® just exactly 

like they had always selected juries.
Q The only —  the only new things that you have introduced into 

the jury selection process is the use of the alphabetical book -*■* 

A Book.

Q —  that is presently the jury roll?

A Uh, huh.
MR. NESSON: Thank you.



102

JUDGE RIVESs You may b© excused* Mrs# Coleman#

WITNESS* Thank you,

JUDGE EIVBSI Call your next witness, gentleman.
ME# MORGAN? Mrs* Gardenia «—  Mrs-* Gardenia White*

At. —  at this point# your honor, before she arrives, I would like 

to do this, 1 don’t know if there will be any objections or not from 

other parties, I have <***» if there are, I —  I aa perfectly willing 

to make copies .of these, but 1 don’t have enough copies, of a Law 

Review article which is to be printed ia the Georg© Washington Law 

Review which- is shortly to coma tip, 1 only have three copies, which 

I can make available to each Judge of the Court* 1 have a fourth 

copy frost which I could hair© copies made and provide the other 

counsel, but X haven’t got the duplicating facilities here in 
Montgomery to do it*

JUDGE ElflSl Are those to fe© introduced in evidence?

MR* MORGANS No, sirs Just for the. general information 
of ta© Court, and 1 would like to just provide the Court with that, 

if 1 might, but again, as I say, I only got the three copies, and 

X think
MR* HALLS Your honor, if he wants to make that a 

part of the brief, all rights but as far as handing it up to the 
Court now at this time, 1 don’t think it has any relevancy whatsoever*

JUDGE RIVESs Not asking to introduce it in evidences 

it is just for the information of the parties and of the Court, more 

ia the nature of a brief,, you are asking *»**



103

MR* MORGANS Yes, sir; I will provide —  we will 

provide, opposing counsel with copies of this, but 1 ham only one 

copy of this, and I will provide either one of them that, myself* 

These are page proofs that we have here in this -- it is a Law 

Review article entitled, nJames Hoe and the Law#1* 1 think —
JUDGE RIVES* We will take them just in the nature 

of a brief, and you will furnish your opponents copy of it?

MR# MORGANS Tea, ma%a| 1 will ask that they be *—  

JUDGE BlfBSi Furnish one copy to the defendants now,
I prisma?

MR® MORGANS I will give this copy **»

JUDGE RIVES* ash?

MR# MCEGAHs to whoever wants it, I aeaa —

JUDOS RIVES* Just **>*“ just go on and put this in your 
brief* when you can serve copies on all of the parties#

■ MR# MORGAN? All right, sir; fine*

JUDGE RIVES* We doa*t care for It until it gets in 
tli® brief and you serve copies on all the counsel#

MR* MORGANS Mrs# Lillian McGill instead of Gardenia 
White, your honor*

i£LLIAM S* McGILL» a Plaintiff, having been duly sworn or affirmed, 
testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATIONS
BT MR* MORGANS 

Q What is your name?



104 '

A My name is Lillian S.« McGill.

Q Mrs. McGill, where do you reside?

A In Faibe Hall* Alabama.

Q Are yon a registered voter!

A Tess I as, 

ft Are you a legrof 

A Xes, I .am*

JUDGE Hl¥E8s I didn’t catch her name*

WITNESS: Lillian S* McGill*

ME*. MORGAN: Lillian- S* McGill.

JUDGE RIVESs McGill*

Q Mrs* McGill, are you, to the best of your knowledge* generally 

reputed to be honest and intelligent and esteemed in the 

community for- integrity, good character, and sound Judgment?
A Yes*

ft Are you over the age of twenty-one?

A Yes*

ft Are you under the age of sixty-five!

A les*

ft Are you a habitual, drunkard?
A No; I don’t drink at all*

ft Do you have any permanent disease ©r physical weakness?

A No*
ft Are you unfit to discharge the duties of a juror?
A Ho*



105

Q Gan you read English?

A Xes*

Q What is your educational background?

A I have I finished high school, and 1 have an experience in 
business college#

Q Have you. ever been convicted of any offense involving moral 
turpitude?

A Ic.
Q Do you own property?

A Yes*

Q Do you have any children!
A. X@s *■
Q You support those children, yourself?
A Yqss Id©,

Q What — . howf what is your occupation?

A 1 an a —  employed as a secretary for the Lowndes County 

Christian Movement* aai I have done domestic work*
Q What was your previous occupation?

A My previous occupation was a clerk~secret&ry for the United 
States Department of Agriculture with the seasons*

Q Have you attempted to — * have you ever mad© any attempt to become 

a juror or to have other Negroes becase jurors in Lowndes County, 
Alabama?

A T@s; one Tuesday we went over to Bayneville in July preceding 

the death of «—  of Jonathan 11. .Daniels., and we went through the



106

Court House and all places to try to find out who these Jury 

Commissioners were in order to put Jurors'9 names on, and nobody 

knew who the Jury Commissioners were; ©ven went to the United. 
States Post Office there is J&yneville and asked the same quest!© 

Q What response did you receive?
A They didn;ft know who it was*

Q Bo you know generally many Negroes ia tbs Lowndes County area?
A Quite a few.

Q Mam and women?

A Men and women-*

Q Bo yon know many sen who meet the qualifications for Jury service 
ia the State of Alabama who ars Negroes?

A Well* 1 dopJt know what qualifications they have ia Alabama for 
jury system*

Q Well —  well* let ms ask you about a few people os Exhibit 2, 1 

think —
ME* MORGAN! »» if you will provide me-with that* Mr®

lesson.

JUDGE RTfESs I think it is very likely that the 

parties would stipulate that there are a large mzabsr of Negro women 

sad of Negro men in Lowndes County who would meet tlm qualifications 

of jurors.
MR. MORGANS Fin©* I don»t —

JUBGl RI¥ESl If I am not mistaken®
MR. MORGANS Will you stipulate that?



ME.* BILL i We do stipulate that there are a large 

amber of Negro men would meet the qualifications of jurors, but not 

jfegro women*

JUDGE RIVESJ Negro men, and if woman could serve

.os juries **■•* ■

ME*- HAIL; And also large um b e r  of whit© men*

JUDGE HIVES s And large a m b e r  of white men.

MR. MORGANS And white women, -also*
JUDGE RIVES5 And white women if they could serve on 

juries, but they e&»?b serve on juries under the State -~

MR* Mils That is correct®
JUDGE. RIVESl But as to the facts, there would be no 

seed of putting on a large number of witnesses hers to show that 
they are qualified as jurors if they could -- if they were qualified 
under the law; is that correct?

MR,,- MAILS We. are agreeable to esqaediting it.

JUDGE RIVES* All right#
Q Do you know Julian F» Bryant?

A Yes, I know hi®.*

Q Bo you. know his general reputation for good in the community 
for integrity, good character, and sound judgment?

A Well, I have heard evidence.

Q What is that reputation; good or bad?



Q Do you know limbo Harris?

A Yes, sir.

Q Who is limbo Eteris?

A limbo Harris, is a legro who is Minister of the First Baptist 
Church of Whit© Kail* Alabama*

Q Do you know of his educational qualifications or attainments?
A Well,., .he .havenft finished grade school.*

MR* MORGAN: Fine* That’s fine* That^s all* That**
all*

JUDGE ElflSl Is that all, Mr* Morgan?
MS* MORGANS Yes, sir*

JUDGE RTMSi Gentlemen, 1 want to say for the Court 
that w© are going to make every effort, to finish this case today, 
if we h a w  to hold well into the sight, so if you gentlemen would try 
to expedite, it, the. Court would appreciate it* Th& defendants have 
tried, now? they say that they will stipulate that there- are a large. 
amber of Negro men and a large E m b e r  of white &en* and large number 
who are- qualified for Jury service in Lowndes County, and as to 
women the same would hold true if they were qualified under the law —  

ME* MORGANS Isa,, sir*.
JUDGE RIVES? for jury service- —

MR* MGEGAII% Y e s , s i r *

JUDGE RIVESs so the individuals and the names of
the individuals, I don’t see where that would be of any help to the 
Court*



109

MR* MORGAN* The only — ■ the only additional testimony 
would be quit® candidly, your honor, we might want to offer with 
any of the Negro witnesses who are here., would be testimony as to 
the character of the people who are presently on the jury rolls 
there «—

JUDGE R O T S  I All right*

■ ME*- MGRGAKs —  and their qualifications*

JUDGE RItfESs 2 demote mean t© cut the parties short,
but *~~

MR* MORGANs Well, sir, we ana as interested, quite
interested

JUDGE EOTSs «■*» just like to expedite it as such as 
wa can, and not have to hold it into the night any further than 
accessary*

MR . MORGANS 1 agreef that is my last, question for 

this witness* I may t e w  one or two more witnesses and two 
depositions*

JUDGE RI¥£Sf All right* Are there any questions, of
this witness?

Ml* SBS8QN* No questions, your honor* 
MR* HAILS No questions.
JUDGE R2¥i§S« You may b© excused.
MR* MORGANS John Huiett.



110

JQBM BUIJgTT. .a Plaintiff, having been duly sworn or affirmed, 

testified as follows?

DIRECT EXAMINATION?
BI MR. MORGAN? 
ft What is your- same?

A 1 a  Jobs Holett*

Q Where- do you reside?

A Route 1, Bass 125, Kayneville*. 
ft Hew long dmve you resided there?

A 1 am thirty-sight now, I was out there 1 was away twelve 
years,, so I have been there, sow., twelve years now, twanty-siic 
years.

ft What do you do for' a living?

A l a ®  n m  —  I as sot employed, but I do construction work*

Q May 1 ask you? do you know —  are you you are a Negro?

A las, I am*
ft Do you know the general, reputation for honesty, integrity,

intelligence, good character, and sound judgment of one Chester 

B* Seals?
A Personally,. I have —  yes.

ft What is that reputation?, good or bad?

A Well, the people people in the community, they seem to be —  

doa*t «*** doesn*t seem to be too pleasant.* 

ft Bo you know the reputation of Ralph MeGough?

A X©s, X do#



Ill

ME. MORGAN; That is spelled M-C G-O-U-G-H; these 

are names, as I recall it, taken from Exhibit 2.

Q What is that reputation? good or bad?

A It seams to be bad®

Q You know the reputation of James A® Till?

A Yes, I know him*
Q What is that reputation? good or bad?

A It is pretty bad®

Q Do you know the reputation of James 0* Long?

A Xes# I do®
Q What is that reputation? good or bad?

A It is bad#
MR* MORGAN; Thank you? that’s all —  oh, by the 

way, you — > that’s all*

JUDGE RIVES I Did the defendants ha ire any notice of 

the names of persons you are charging bad reputations?
MR* MORGAN; Beg your pardon, sir?

JUDGE ElfESi Did you give opposing counsel any 

notice of the persons you would charge have bad reputations?

MR. MORGAN; I did not know until this morning, sir, 

that I was even, going to do it, so we haven’t gives any notice at 
all,

JUDGE RIVES; Any questions from the intervening

plaintiff?



112

MR* MORGAN: I would not have probably done it rad

not the testimony previously com© out. about Negro convictions.

■JUDGE EXVESi It occurs to me it is probably impossible 

for the defendants to cross examine on a matter of this kind without 
any notice as to who they are, but I say be mistaken* You gentlemen 
have aay *»*• have any questions?

Ml. HAIL* We don't even .know who these people are 
h® is talking about#

JUDGE RIVES I I understand! I don't see how the case 

could very well be tried on that kind of basis.
MR* HILLS Ho.
JUDGE RIVESl All right*

MR* HALL* Mo questions.

JUDGE RIVESs You may coma down#

ME® MORGAN* lour honor, at this time we have a 

deposition of Robert Coles, of Harvard, that we would like to 

introduce and offer into evidence and introduce in evidence* it -was 

taken without notice, and it was taken on November 23 at Cambridge, 

Massachusetts* We had hoped to have him here as a witness, but; the 
Thanksgiving holidays made that Impossible-.

■ JUDGE HIVES! Unless there are objections, it will 

•>3 received in evidence.

THE CLERKS Plaintiffs' Exhibit number 2.

MR. HALL* Ye a, sirs we have an objection, several 
of them, if the Court will hear aa for a moment # We got these



113

depositions last night® It is true that they ware taken by consent 

of the Attorney General; however* the Attorney General did. not 

consent that this deposition be introduced in evidence, because we 

didn*t know what was in it for one thing. I got it last night, and 

I started reading it over, and it appears that this nan by the name 

of Dr*. Robert Coles is a psychiatrist in Boston, Massachusetts, 

apparently connected with Harvard University; it shows that he only 

graduated frost college in 1950, he would have been about twenty-two 

years of age at that time; he graduated fro®-medical school in 1954, 

asking him about twenty-six years of age at that time; and now, 

eleven years later, at the age of approximately thirty-seven, he 
presumes to set himself up as an expert on race relations in the 
State of Alabama. His only connection with the South at all, 

according to his own deposition, is during the whole of his training 
and experience he spent a period of two years at that paradise of 

doctors, hospital at Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi, 

from- 195$ through I960® It seems that, according to his own 

deposition, that during that whole time he concerned himself with 

child psychology* It is apparent throughout the whole deposition 

that that has been his main concern in life* He also says that as 

a basis for writing numerous papers and articles that have appeared 

ia various professional magazines that he interviewed approximately 
©as hundred to a hundred and twenty-five people® I am sure that 

that does not constitute him an expert on the subject of who should 

©r who should not serve on juries in Lowndes County, Alabama-, or in



114

aay other county in Alabama® This whole deposition is filled with 

personal opinions, all based on weak premises , and is bolstered by 
his own articles*

JUDGE RXVJS3; Is all that this witness testified to
his opinions?

ME* HALL; Yes, sir; his opinions*

JUDGE RIVES; That is purely a question of law that 
the Oourt would pass upon*

ME* HALLi Yes, sir*

JUDGE RIVES; I donft see why need any witnesses 
to give us their opinion on that subject*

MR* HALL? We feel this sort of thing has no place in 
the trial of the law suit*

JUDGE RIVES; Xes, sir#

MS* MORGAIfs Tour honor, this witness —  I think that 

every statement has bean made, by Mr# Hall goes to the qualification 
g£ this- witness to testify as aa expert* as a psychiatrist, who has 

had considerably more experience in the South, by M s  m m  —» by his 

own deposition, of course, and by his writings* Ha is a pre-eminent 

authority in the field of race relations in the United States# I 

think his testimony is quite necessary to be in the record, at least, 
with respect to the questions of the effect of exclusion of Negroes 

sad exclusion of women regarding the —  the jury system in Alabama 
®ad elsewhere* W© offer it for that, and all the objections go to —  

to his qualifications! I thick the Court can see that for themselves*



115

JUDGE RIVES s Gent lemon,, as th© Court looks on it, 
the policy of the law is prescribed by the statutes and by the 
Constitution, and we have to follow those® Testimony of experts 

as to what they think should be done would not ba of any aid to the 
Court#

MS* MORGAN? That is not* th© testimony -*■* that is 

not the kind of testimony h© gives* He gives testimony to th© effect 
of th© system as it is now.

JUDGE RIVES: Whatever the effect might be, if the. 
statutes and Constitution prevail, why, that would —  that would 
have to be what the Court would go by* ¥a will —  you may put it 
in the record as having been offered, but the Court will sustain 
objection*

I®* MORGANS May I —  aa.y 1 say ©as thing, sir?
JUDGE RIVESS lee.
MR. MORGAN? Brown v# Board of Education was based on 

testimony substantially, similar to this, and w@ cite that as 
authority for that.

JUDGE RIVES? It will be there where any Court that 
wishes to examine it can do sol I don*t think it would be balpful 
to us, because we will b© guided entirely by th© law in the case#

MR*. MORGAN? All right, sirj fine# Wa offer as 

Plaintiffs* Exhibit 3, is it?
THE GLEES? Yes, sir.
MR# MORGAN? In ©vidence also the deposition of John



116

F» Kraft* of John F. Kraft* Inc** which was also taken in Hew York* 
THE CLERKi Plaintiffs’ Exhibit msab-ar 3*
JUDGE RITES: What is the substance of his deposition*

Mr* Morgan?
MR* MORGAN: Mr* Kraft is a public opinion marketing 

surrey specialist and sampling specialist* We think this goes to 
the type of remedy in this ease, and would offer sons suggestions 
to the Court about kinds of remedy that might be utilisable by the 
Court in Lowndes County in granting final relief in the decision*
He talks in terms of cross section* how to obtain cross sections* 
personal experience* he is a pollster* a person of very high repute 
in the nation in this field and sampling techniques and other 
techniques•

MR* HALL: We object*
JUDGE RITES: Any objection to these matters?
MR. HALL: (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
JUDGE RITESs You m y  attach these things to your 

brief, if you like, for the Court’s help in reasoning this thing 
out, but bo far as being admissible in evidence, if the parties 
object to it, I think we would sustain the objection*

MR* MORGAN: Of course, we except to those*

JUDGE RITES: They are more arguments, as I see it,
than they are evidence. All right, gentlemen, any thing else?

MR. MORGAN: I want to confer on© moment, your honor*
sir; Henri A* Stines.



117

HENRI A, STINES. a Plaintiff, having been duly sworn or affirmed* 
testified as followsI

DIRECT EXAMINATIONS
BY MR. MORGANS
Q What is your nam©?
A Henri A# Stines#
Q Where do you residef
A Atlanta* Georgia#
Q What is your occupation or profession?
A X aa an Episcopal Priest of the Episcopal Church#
Q Are you connected with the Episcopal Church in a formal way?
A X®s| now I am the Director of the Southern Field Service for 

the Episcopal Society for Cultural and Racial Unity* and also 
Field Representative for the National Council of Churches.

Q What is the work of the Episcopal Society for Cultural and 
Racial Unity that you do* and also for the National Council of 
Churches?

A Mainly our work is to try to establish dialogue among church and 
community leaders to bring about reconciliation based on equal 
justice among the races.

Q Any —  have you been to Lowndes County* Alabama?
A X®s, I have*
Q Has any of your work been performed there?
A Tea3 we hare.



118

Q Have any of your cosspanions been to Lowndes County, Alabama?

A Yes, indeed! especially Jonathan Daniels, who was killed in 

Loundeg County#

Q Doss the exclusion of Degrees or women from juries affect in any 
way your operation and your work?

ME* HALL® We object..

MR. BMBLRIg Tour honor, we object to this kind of

testimony.
J U K I  RXVE8S I didn*t tear that; what was the

question?
MR* MQRGAIs Does the exclusion of women or Degrees 

irm juries in Lowndes County, Alabama, affect in any way his 
organisation or its work in Lowndes County?

JUDOS RIVES I We overrule the objection.

A Definitely; yes*
Q How does it affect it?
A Well, as a Hegro, myself, how safe would I feel, or how could I 

expect equal justice when son© of my own people cannot be 
represented among the jury; that is the first thing® And after 

I have been traveling through the Deep South, I would say that 
there are —  due to the work we have been doing in the churches, 
that the w m m  by their understanding of intergroup relations 
should be on the jury, because I have found that they are the 
most human© people I have seen in this particular area.

MR* HALLS W@ object to this, your honor, and move



119

to exclude it.
JUDGE RIVES s Well s we will let in what baa bean 

stated, but his reasoning, I think, Is perhaps more —  more 
appropriate for arguments than evidence* We will 1st in the 
statement that h@ has given, but the conclusions, would you keep 
the® to a minimum —

1®. MORGAN; Xes, sir*
JUDGE RIVES; —  because conclusions of the witness

are not of Much help to us*

Q Hew does it affect your particular -- tIm particular organiza­
tional operation that you have; do you have a staff?

A Yes, we do*

Q Do you laav® a staff in Lowndes County?

A X©@»

Q Is there a staff man there now?
A He could not be found in Lowndes County now, but M s  territory 

is —  Lowndes County is included in his territory*
Q Do you find that the jury system in Lowndes County makes it any 

more likely for you to b© able to recruit employees and others 
to go into Lowndes County, or lass?

A X would say very difficult, because people actually are afraid, 
and I an afraid to go to Lowndes County just for that reason. 
Therefore, it is difficult to find people who would be willing 
to go to Lowndes Comity to work.

Q Is that in voter registrational work?



120

A Eight #
Q Any kind of work?
A Eight.

ME. MORGAN: That’s all*
JUDGE HIVESi Any cross examination, gentlemim?
MR# BRADLEY: X@s, sir#
JUDGE RIVES I First, any -questions- the intervener 

plaintiff wishes to ask this witness?
MR# NESSON: No, your honor% no questions®
JUDGE RIVES: Any cross examination?
HR# BRADLEY! Yes, sir.
JUDGE RIVES! All right®

CROSS EXAMINATION:
IT MR# BRADLEY#

Q Now, I believe you stated you are a resident of Atlanta, Georgia? 
A That is right.
Q And you stated that you have been working in Lowndes County, 

have you?
A Yes, sir#
Q And you have a staff in Lowndes County?
A Not in residence, but his —  Lowndes County is included in M s  

territory#
Q He doesn’t live in Lowndes County, Alabama?
A No, he doesn’t.
Q Where does h© live?



121

A la Tuscaloosa.
Q Tuscaloosa County, Alabama?
A That*s right*
Q Do you know whether he votes up ther© or not?
A Yes, h© is from th® State of Alabama§ he is a citizen of —  of 

Alabama,
Q Is he —  is he on the jury roll in Lowndes —  in Tuscaloosa 

County?
A I donft think so,
Q Does he desire to he on the jury roll, in Lowndes County, Alabama? 
A You would have to ask him.
Q I s©a| what is his nan©?

ME. MGRGAH: Is that —  we object to the pertinence
of that, your honor, th© relevance of that.

JUDGE RIVES: Is there @«y purpose in bringing out
his name?

MR. BRADLEY: Sir?
JUDGE RIVES: What is the purpose of bringing out

his name? He is not a citizen of Lowndes County; I donft ae© where 
it*a got anything to do with the case.

MB, BRADLEY: Well, your honor, he stated that this
aan is down there and that he feels he is in danger of his life.

JUDGE RIVES: A representative in the State, got some
people that are afraid to go into Lowndes, is all he 1ms testified.

MR. BRADLEY: Yes, sir.



122

JUDOS RIVESs Now, the name of the particular man, I 
presume they object to it because there may be sane incriminations® 
Unless there is sea© purpose in it, I don’t see why it is necessary*

MR* BRADLEIs Of course, your honor, w© feel like his 

name should ba relevant in order to ascertain whether or not he’s 
bean there, he is going there, or he will go there, we don®t —  there 

could be any number of people going in and out of Lowndes County 
©vary day*

J O B ®  RIVES; The Court thinks the objection should
b® sustained*

MR* MCE GAR; I have no further questions®
J O B ®  RIVESi You may come down*

MR* MORGAN: Could we bar® a two minute conference?
1© will be through with the case, I think; one minute®

JUDGE RIVES; All right.

MR. MORGANS We rest.
JUDGE RIVES; Plaintiffs rest* All right, gentlemen, 

my further evidence from the plaintiff-intervener 1 The plaintiffs 
rest*

MR* NESSONs lour honor, you mentioned that it was 
aot a great need for putting on individual persons to testify &s to 
their individual qualifications! however, w© have a number of 
witnesses that I think would be relevant to this case to testify 
that they are people who are qualified, who have not been contacted 
by the Jury Commissioners, relevant to the point ©f whether the



123

jury Commissioners do go into the county and contact qualified 

people looking for qualified iegroes* Secondly- we would like to 

be abl® to show that there are people in the —  in Lowndes County, 

Negroes in Lowndes County, who could be contacted by Jury 

Ocfsnissioaers, and that would be familiar with their communities 

and familiar with the qualifications of persons in that community® 

And that we think would bear partially on the relief that would be 

appropriate in this case®
JUDGE RIVESs Could you —  could you tell us how many 

witnesses you burr© who would testify to those facts, and se© if the 

defendants® counsel will not stipulate that those witnesses if 

introduced would s© testify? I donft want to bring any pressure 

on you gentlemen to so stipulate or on you not to put your witnesses 

©a the stand, but it seems to m  those facts are pretty well «—
MR. HALLI lour honor, I think we have been ~  you 

will find we have been pretty cooperative throughout this whole 

thing® We are willing to make such a stipulation if fas will make 

aucti a tender or make an offer®
JUDGE RIVESI All right; if you will, than, tell us 

the number, and tell us what they would testify, and aaa if the 

defendants1 counsel would not so stipulate#
ME® HALL; If he will give us the names! that is the

thing#
JUDGE RIVESI All right®
MB# KESSOIs I will give you the c a s e  of four



124

witnesses. The first witness which I would have called would have 
been A® E® Stickney, who is Principal of the Calhotm School* Ho is 
a nan who 1ms been in Lowndes County, Principal of the school, 
since 1946* H@ finished Morehouse College® He received a Masters 
Degree in Education at Alabama Stats, and is now working on a 
doctorate, at the University of Michigan® He is a man who hag ted 
so arrests* II© is acquainted with Luck Jackson who is a member of 
the Jury Commission. He hag never been asked to serve on a Lowndes 
County jury. He 1ms never been approached by any member of the 
Jury Commission asking him whether —  either whether he wanted to 
Berm or whether he would provide names of persons who —  who would 
be qualified to serve on juries.

JUDGE RXfBSi That the extent of his testimony?
MR* EESSGHs Mr* Stickney also would have testified 

that he had served on a federal jury in Dothan two years ago. He 

would have testified that he is familiar through Calhoun, through 
his relationships with students and parents at the Calhoun School, 
with large numbers of persons in the Negro community, and would be 
able to provide information as to qualifications to a Jury 
C«aission@r.

JUDGE SITESi Gentlemen, may we stipulate that that 
y i l t m s a  if introduced would so testify?

MR. HALLs Now, your honor, we are willing —  agree 
to stipulate that probably he would testify to that effect, but
then on the other hand, the latter part of what Mr. lesson said with



125

regard to his being willing to furnish the m a m  and wanting to 

serve on jury —  on the juries, himself, is a matter that we think 

calls for probable cross ©ssamination as to whether h© has ever 

offered, ©¥©r attempted to have his name placed on the jury roll, 
whether he is aware of the fact that it is the policy of the Jury 

Ccsmissios in that particular county not to place teachers on the 
rolls, as has been testified to that effect# And the first part 

of what fa® says is well and good, but whan lie gets down to talking 

about what he is willing to do and what lie wants to do, that is —  

that is s«ething els©, and m  would like to find out what effort 
he has made #

JUDGE RXVBSi It seems to me, gentlemen, w© will just 

have to tak© these witnesses and let them be examined, but would 

it b© useful for you gentlemen, given sufficient time at. the noon 

recess, to see how far you can stipulate on the testimony of these 

witnesses?

MR# HALLs Y©s, sir#
ME# BMBXEls las, sir#

MR* FLOWERS; Yes, air*
MR* lESSGls Tour honor, I have aloout, I would say, 

eight witnesses that I could put on#
JUDGE RIVESs I see*

MR# MESS®* If it is necessary t© put witnesses oa| 
because we can agree, then I can cut it down t© four*

JUDGE RIVESs Counsel, employ the noon recess and see



126

to what extent you can stipulate to this type of testimony® We 

won’t cut you short if you can’t reach an agreement on stipulation, 

but **** and it seams to me it would probably be better for counsel 

to ait down where they can discuss the matter freely rather than 

undertake to reach a stipulation her© in open court® If we eaa, 

then, let’s stipulate that type of evidence, and you gentlemen at 

the noon recess see how far you can stipulate on it® Do you have 

any other evidence you want to introduce?

MR. KES8QKs Tour honor, could I have a few minutes 

to confer? This has -—

JUDGE RXVESs les, sir*
MR# lESSOHi —  taken the case somewhat out of order® 

We havs some other documents that I would like to put in that I know 

of for sure.

JUDGE RIfESs Sea© other documents, and except for 

that you don’t anticipate any further evidence?

MR® NESSON: That is what I would like to confer

about, your honor®

JUDGE RIfESs I see® Well, it is about —  you mean 

just for a moment or two here now?

MR. lESSOHi Yes, your honor®

JUDGE RIVES® All right, suppose you take a moment

or two now.
MR. MORGANS Tour honor, I don’t know what **» may I 

just ©ay to the Court, I don’t know what the defense will put on8



12?

with respect to oar rebuttal or anything* but 1 also would like the 

opportunity to get with them, the only —  since the intervenor is 

talking in terms of men jurors at the moment, 1 would also like to 

say that there are wosaen in Lowndes County who desira to serve on 

the juries* W© have said they are qualified, but I don?t think we 

said they desire to* 1 would like that stipulation in the record.

JfJBCJB RIVES I I think it would be very helpful if they 
would confer with you, too, and see as to what extent they can 

agree on your testimony you, would expect to introduce. ¥© will 

probably cut you gentlemen a little short to eat on during the lunch 
hour, though*

MR. MORGANS That bothers me.

MR* WESSONS Tour honor, if we could, 1 would like to 
put ©n Judge Hammonds so as to introduce some of the records relating 
to voting in Lowndes County®

MR. COLEs We stipulated to the voter listsfli© is 
perfectly willing for then to go in#

MR. NESSONi fliers are some records of which we need 
tbs originals, which w© Iiswa subpoenaed into the case®

MR® COLEs All right, sir®

ME® NESSONs Gould I call Judge Hammonds?

JUDGE RlfESs All right? Judge Hammonds, would you 
cos® around, please*

38^)8o663feS&3&^C3l65&5S6M s^^8^:*Y* «-g*> •TT’ v  3 “•S®



128

HARRELL MflOIDS, a Defendant* called as witness by the United States* 
hairing been duly sworn or affirmed* testified as follows?

DIRECT EXAMIlttTION:
BI MR® USSOIl

Q Would you please state your name for the Court?
A Harrell Hammonds*
Q And yous* position?
A Probate Jtmgs®

Q Do you have in your possession as Probate Judge records relating 
to voting in Lowndes County?

A Teet sir*
Q And also records relating to poll t a x  and payments?
A Tea* sir*
Q Hair© you brought with you the registration list and poll tax 

records of parsons who h a m  been purged from the qualified 
voters list in Lowndes County?

A I think I hair®! I have tried to bring everything you seat for*
Q Gould you tell a© where I could find those?

A x©sf sir| they are right over there*

JUDGE RITES? Mr* lesson,, you want Judge Hammonds 
to cone down and get those; he would know thea better than you* 
wouldn't he?

MR* HESSON: Tea, sir; I believe that would be
helpful*

WITNESS? Judge* I don't believe I know the® as well



129

as he does| I don’t know too much about it, that is the truth*
JUDGE RIVES: He says h® doesn’t know.

HE. KESSONl Perhaps I could have him cone down, 

perhaps w© could both pool our limited knowledge and get the right 
records.

MR. COLE2 Charles, if you will tall us what you are 
trying to prove, maybe w® can stipulate*

(Mr. lesson and Mr. Sole had whispered conference) 
MR* iBSSGIs Tour honor, if we could, 1 think we 

perhaps could expedite the proceedings if I worked with these 
records and pub them in better order during the lunch break and 
offered them to the Court after that time*

JUDGE RIVES: Well, gentlemen, it is now, according 
to isj time, about ten minutes to on©* Would two ofclock, recessing 
until two o’clock, give you gentlemen time to do your conferring 
and get a bit® to eat?

MR. HBSSON% (Hodded to indicate affirmative reply} 
MR. BMDLEY: (Nodded to indicate affirmative reply)
JUDGE RIVESS Court will stand in recess, then, until

two o’clock*

(At which time., 12:50 p.au, a recess was had until 
2§00 p.au, at which time the trial continued)

JUDGE RIVES: Be seated, gentlemen® Gentlemen, I
hop© we allowed you all time at least to get a bit© in addition to 
the conferring.



130

MR. BEADLE!s tea, six.

JUDGE RIVESs Were you able to reach any understand” 
lags as to your stipulation?

MR* IESSOMi Tour honor , I believe we have. W© have 
agreed to proceed in the following way* if it is all right with the 
Court # ¥@ have agreed,, first of all, that w© will put on two of 
our witnesses only, and that as to the rest of the witnesses, 1 will 
read, as I did before, what the witnesses would testify to.
Following those witnesses, w© had a number of illiterate Negroes 
who are gr©s@ntly on the jury roll, and wa also had son© white 
witnesses, the point being to show that literacy has not been a 
standard, an absolute standard, for jury service* W© have agreed 
between m  to stipulate to the fact that literacy has. not been 
an absolute standard for jury service in the county, and that there 
are illiterates of both races on the jury roll presently, and there 
have boon illiterates of both races on the jury rolls in the past* 
And that will permit us to avoid putting on any white witnesses or 
any of the legroes presently oa the roll* There is oa© further 
problem which we discussed, and that was the problaa of about —  
of venire lists for the fall of 1964, which we had them subpoenaed, 
and which looking through the documents over her© I donft believe 
was brought. We have in our possession .only one copy of that, which 
we hav© used as a working copy. It has some marks on it, seme check 
sharks, which we have mad© in the eours© of analysing the recordsg 
and we have agreed that if it is pesmiisa.ibl© with the Court, we ‘will



131

offer that and substitute a clean copy of it when one can b© 
obtained#

JUDGE BUSSi All that is agreeable with the Court* 
aad thank you* gentlemen* for being ao cooperative# Anything 
further?

ME# IBSSOHi Your honor* w© had Judge Hammonds on 
the stand* aad I would like at this time to have him come back to the 
stand and to put in the rest of the Exhibits w© have# low* all that 
I need Judge Hammonds for is simply for purposes of putting in the 
Exhibits* We have spoken to counsel about the Exhibits* and it may 
not he necessary for him to cose back*

JUDGE HIVES: Judge lias®ends, would you c m ©  back to
the stand* then.

MR. COLE: We don’t object to any of these records 
that came frcm the Probate office* they have already been made 
available* and it is perfectly agreeable with us#

MR* HESSOWs Some of the other parties may have 
questions for Judge Hammonds* and I can’t answer for that*

JUDGE RIYES: You think you will need him?
ME* 1ESS0H* 1 personally will not need .him* if there 

is no problem with the records* your honor#
MR# MORGAN: We have no questions#
JUDGE' RIVES: How is that? You may sit down* then*

Judge Hammondsf if they need you* they will call you back*
WITNESS: Yes* sir



132

I®. SE8SOI1 Your honor® we would like to offer in 
evidence the qualified voters lists that have been used in Lowndes 
County* Thes© ar@ found in the Probata office| they were brought 
hare by the Probate Judge* They cover the years 1932® *3 4 , *35, 936, 
*39, *40, *44, *45, *4 6 , *47, *48, *49, *50, *5 2, *54, *55, *56,
*57, *60, *61, *62, and *63 —  *63 and *6 4 .

JU9GE RI?ESs Are those copies?
ME* 1E83QII These are th© original records, your

honor*
MR* COLEs If it pleas® the court, if we could 

stipulate, also, that th® Government will substitute copies and 
return the originals, we would appreciate it* They have copied, I 
—  do you have copies of these, Charles?

MR* BESSON; We had a mechanical problem with the 
copies of these. The film that was mad® of these records was 
substantially destroyed that the prints w© have of them are very- 
poor* low, these records are not presently being used by anyone 
la Lowndes County! they ar® old qualified voters lists, and I don’t 
believe that it would be very burdensome to have th© originals 
actually a part of the record* If it is any problem at all, then 
w® will have them rsphotographed and have prints and submit —

MR* COLE! It is no problem except we think they 
belong in th© Probata Court of Lowndes County where the records — ~ 

JUDGE RIVES; Of course, they will be returned when
bhis case is over*



133

MR. GOLEs Well, if that is —
JUDGE RIVES: If you —  if they are needed in the

meant!®©, the Government will substitute copies for such —
MR. COLls All right#
JUDGE RIVES: —  files as are needed*
THE CLERK# Plaintiff—Intervenor * a Exhibit number 14® 
JUDGE RIVES: All right, sirj it may be received in

evideac®-#

MR# KESSGB® Tour honor, w® offer as Exhibit number
15 the voter registration books of Lowndes County covering the 
years 1950 to *52, *5 2 to *53, *5 5 to *5 9, and *60 to *6 3 #

THE CLERK# Plaintiff—Intervener*s Exhibit number 1 5 ® 
JUDGE RIVES: It will be received in evidence.
MR* BESSON1 Tour honor, we offer as Exhibit number

16 the poll tax lists of Lowndes County which were available! these 
cover the years 1931 to 1936, * 3 7 through *4 7 , *4 6 to *5 9 , and *59

to *65.

THE CLERKS Plaintiff'-Intervener Exhibit nisbar 16® 
JUDGE RIVES: It will be received ia evidence#

MR* NESSON• Tour honor, we offer as Exhibit number 
1? the register of names stricken from the qualified voters lists| 
these books cover —  these books alternate every two years from 
1936 to 1964.

THE CLERK: Plaintiff-IntervenerExhibit nisabsr 1 7 # 
JUDGE RIVES: It will be received in evidence#



134

ME* KESSON: lour honor, w@ offer as Exhibit number ««
oh, excuse me; I think I picked the wrong o m  up* lour honor, we 
offer as Exhibit amber 18 the emulative poll tax carts of Loimdea 
County; these are presently being used, and wa will provide copies 
and substitute*

THE CLERK: Plaintif f-Xnbervenor*& Exhibit amber 18*
JUDGE RXVE8: Those are the originals, and copies will

be supplied and the originals returned.

MR* KESSON: This is a part, of that Exhibit*
111* HESSORs Your honor, we offer as Exhibit mmb&r 

19 the current Tax Assessor’s list for Lowndes County, showing th© 
saias of all persons in the county who pay taxes® This is a —

MR* HALLs What was that umber?
ME. HESSORs lumbar 19.

JUDGE RIVES: Is that an original record, Mr* lesson?
ME. KSSOls That is also an original record, which 

m  will substitute if that is permissible*

JUDGE RIYESl All right, sir; it may be received in
evidence.

ME® HESSOls Your honor, we offer as Exhibit number 
what a m b e r do we have?

JUDGE RIVES: 20, I belisve.

M »  HBSSOKs As Exhibit number 20, three copies of «
bound copies of the Lowndes County Signal! these are offered because 
they contain th® qualified voters lists for years which we do not



135

have in lists provided by the Probate Judge#

JUDGE RIVES2 It may be received in evidence# Are 
those the years 1951, *53, and *59?

MR* IBSSOIi They are, your honor# lou r honor, we 
o ffe r  as Exhibit number 21 the p o ll cards of those persons who have 

been purged from the qualified voters l i s t  in  Lowndes County that 
wer© available at the Probate Judge*a o ffic e *

JUDGE ROTS 2 They w ill  be received in evidence®

MR® ilSSOls Your honor,, w@ offer as Exhibit number 
22 the venire list, with second week of the f a l l  tern, 1964, this 

is the working copy, w@ will furnish a clean copy of it as soon as 
we are able®

JUDGE HIVES2 I t  may be received in  evidence*

ME® MESSOHs Finally, your honor, we would like to 
offer as Exhibit um b e r  23 two hundred and fo r ty -f iv e  se lected  

applications for registration to vote by parsons listed by federal 

in Lowndes County, Alabama, between August 9 and August
26, 1965®

MR* HALL; low, your honor, we have not stipulated 
aad have not agreed to stipulate that th at could be into evidence! 

wt want t© object to i t .  This i s  something that has nothing to 

do, m  feel, with the past actions of the Jury Commission, Jury 

Commissioners. The Jury Commissioners have already testified, has 

cone out here in the testimony this morning, that until January of 

this year no Negroes ware registered to vote in Lowndes County, and



136

it has also com© out in evidence that the Jury Cossaissianers relied 

principally ©a the list of registered voters to obtain the names of 

persons who were put on the jury roll. And furthermore, I am not 

certain, I don’t believe they Imre been certified to the Probate 

Judge yet, so they wouldn’t fa& m  been available t© the Jury 
CcGsaissioner®.

MR. MESSOHs Your honor, w© do not offer this as a 
potential source, a pre-existing potential source for jurena far 
the Jury Commissions we offer it to show that there are a substantial 
number ©f legroes in the community of Lowndes that are capable of 
filling out registrations by themselves. The selection that we 
mdo here was of those applications which ted been completely or 
partially filled out by the applicant, as best w@ could judge; we 
offer thorn for your consideration on that point and that point alone« 

JUDGE RITES? Those are applications of persons to 
the federal examiners —

MR. MESSONs That is correct, your honor.

JUDGE RITES? —  in Lowndes County —

MR. HESSOHs That is correct.®

JUDGE RITESs —  between August 9 and August 26?
MR. WESSONl That is correct.

JUDGE RITES? Application for listing as — * for
voting?

MR. IESSOIs Yes, your honor* We offer thorn simply 
to show that there are that many people during that period of time



137

who were capable of filling out an application form,

ME* HALLs We are not trying that kind of a casef we 
are trying a Jury Commission case*

JUDGE RIVES i The Court thinks that is not admissible 3 
w© sustain the objection*

MR# NESSOIIt lour honor, I would like to call 
William S. Bradley#

HIJjlAM S >... BRADLEY„ witness for the United States, hairing been duly 
sworn or affirmed, testified as follows2

DIRECT EXAMINATION!
BY MR.. MESSOil

Q Mr. Bradley, will you state your full name for the Court, pleas©? 
A My aam® is William S. Bradley#

Q Would you tell me your address?

A Route 1, Box 4$, Calhoun, Alabama, in Lowndes County#
Q When were you born?

A September 1, 1911.

Q Where were you born?

A Bayneville, Lowndes County.

Q Bar® you been a resident of Lowndes Comity all your life?
A Lifetime.
Q Can you state what your occupation is?
A I am a farmer, bird dog trainer, and operate a little store.

Q Would you describe your family, please?



A 1 have a wife and ten children»

Q Have any of your1 sons served in the military?

A My oldest living son served in Korean conflicts and I have two 

sons in the service now stationed in Germany and one in Viet Ham

Q Would you tell me something about your girls; have they been 
educated?

A Oldest daughter finished four years college and is teaching; on© 

other girl has finished two years college, of course is married 

and living in —  with her husband who is in the service, and 

the other daughter, second daughter also h.ad on® year of college 

the other daughter is a junior in senior high school,,

Q Are you a member of a church?
A I as*

Q You hold any office in that church?

A I have —  I hold the offices of Local Elder and Superintendent 
of the Sabbath School*

Q Gan you describe to the Court what the duties of a Local Elder 
are?

MR. COLE2 We object to that on the ground of
relevancy.

JUDGE RIVESs Local Elder of a church?

WITNESS: TImtfs right, your honor#

JUDGE RIVES2 That is a little more detail than you
teed to go into for this purpose, I would think.

Q Do you have any convictions, criminal convictions?



139

A lone.

Q Would you say what your education has been?

A 1 finished four years high school and four years of college* 

Tuskegea Institute,

Q That is four years of Tuskegeef 

A Right«

Q That is college?

A Yes, sir®
Q Did you receive a degree?

A Yes, sir| 8#8® degree in Agriculture*

Q Do you own any property?

A J m s sir| 1 do®
Q Would yon tell me what you own?

A A hundred and ninety-four acres of Mud®

Q You own your own feeua®?

A Own house*

ft Have you paid taxes?

A 1 have., sir,

Q Hew long have you been paying taxes?

A Sines *34*
Q Do you know Mr* Maurice Marietta?

A Yes# sir| 1 do® 

ft Would he know you?
A Yes* sir| 1 am sure he does*
Q Bo you know Mr® Luck Jackson?



A e

0 Would fa© know you? 
k H® would»

Q Bo you knot# Mr. II®ary Barganier?
A I do®

Q Would fas know you?

A Tass h© would.

Q Have you ©Ter been asked to serve on a jury in Lowndes County? 
A Ho, sir| I faav6u ft®

Q Would you want fco serve if you were asked?

A Well, 1 would deaa it ay duty if I were asked®

Q Do you feel that you know your community well?
A I would think so®
Q Would you b© able to provide names of persons whom you thought 

qualified for jury service if you ware asked to do-so?
A I would think so, yes®

Q Would you be able to provide information about other persons so 
that someone else sight judge whether the person was qualified?

Q Have you ever served ©n a federal jury? 
A One®

Q Can. you tell me where that was?
A Here®

In this court room?



241

Q Are you registered to vote?
A lea, sir| i an*

Q Os h  you tell ma when you registered?
A April, is *65#

Q Bid you register with the county officials?

A Yes,, sir? that^s right®

I©® iESSOll Thank you very much, Mr. Bradley#

JUDGE RIVESs Any questions by the plaintiffs?
MR. BILLINGSLEY: No, air.

JUDGE RIVESI Any questions by the defendanta?

MR. BRADLEY. lea, six*! 1 would like to ask him one
question.

CROSS EXAMINATION:
BX MR. BRADLEY:

Q TJa© asses of the men that you ware asked if you knew, Mr#

Barganier, Mr# Jackson, and Mr. Crook, I believe, have you ever 
asked either of those gentlemen to put your nasi© oa the jury 
roll In the County of Lowndes?

A No, sirf 1 have not.

JUDGE RIVESl Any other questions, Mr# Bradley? You 
may c m ©  down® You may be excused, also#

WITNESS: Thank you#

MR* MESSOI% Tour honor, I would like to call Mr.
William Cosby.

MARSHAL: William who?



142

MR. HESSON: Cosby.
'T T 'T T ^  "^ * *8  “T ^ e ^ * 'rw ir>mK9 s # * "sr*"p®

WILLIAM GOSBX, witness for the United States, having been duly 

sworn or affirmed, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION:
m  MR. WESSON:
Q Would you state your full name for the Court, please?
A William Cosby*

JUDGE RIVES: Ion say be seated. How do you spell
your last name?

WITNESS! C-O-S-E-Y.
JUDGE RIFES: C-O-S^B-Y.

Q Would you tell m© what your address; is?

A Bout® 1, Box 1449 Tyler.

Q What part of the community is that in in terms ©f geographic 

location?
A Trick©® area, Trickem community.

Q Is that in the northern part of the community?

A 1 believe it would be northern! that®s right.

Q Where ware you born?
A I was born at the same address in Lowndes County.
Q A M  have you lived there all of your life?

A With the exception of four years.

Q Can you tell me where you were during those four years?

A I was in the United States Amy#



143

Q Would you describe your education for me?

A Well9 I have three years here in the county, two years in

Selma, plus three more years here in the county of vocational 

training^ and I have a course of fuel injection in the United 
States A m y *

Q H a t  years were you in the A m y ?

A . Frm 194$, 1 believe, August at least, August of 194$ until 
July, *52.

Q Gan you tell s© where you served?

A I served basic training in Kentucky, fro® there t© San Francisco, 
California, from there overseas, Okinawa, came back to the 

States, went t© school at Aberdeen, Maryland, left there the 

s a a  year in 1950 and went back overseas to Korea, and I served 
in the engineers there, combat.

Q Were you honorably discharged from the service?
A Ye a, sir.

Q Can you tell m© whether you received any awards or medals?

A Yes, sir; 1 did. 1 received the Good Conduct Medal, the 

Occupation Medal of Japan, the United Nations Service Medal 
with five bronse stars.

Q Are you married?

A les, 1 am*

Q Bo you lave children?

A I do.

Q So you own your own house?



144

A I do®
Q Do you m m  any land?

A 1 do®
Q Hay® you been paying taxes?

A Yes, sir,
Q Can you fceXX me how long you have been paying taxes?

A Since 1955*
Q What is your occupation?
A 1 farm and also merchant, part time mechanic *

Q Do you belong to any organisations?

A I do,
Q Can you tell me what they are?
A The F* and A.M. of Alabama, that is Free and Accepted Masons 

of Alabama*

Q Have you eves* been arrested?

A Haver have*

Q Bo you drink?

A No, I don*t*
Q Do you know Mr. Luck Jackson?

A 1 do®

Q Would h© know you?

A Yes, sir.
Q Would you want to serve on a jury if you were asked to do so?

A Yes, sir.
Q Have you ever been approached to ask you to serve or to ask you



145

if you knm anyone who would be qualified to serve?
A Never have*

Q Do you feel that you know your community well?

A I — - I think 1 know some about it*

Q Would you be able to provide names t© someone who asked, you of 

persons that you thought were qualified to serve on juries?
A Tess sir*

Q Would you be able to tall persons that asked you about

qualifications of other persons so that they could judge for 

themselves whether those persons were qualified?
A I believe I could*
Q Are you registered to vote?

A Xes, sir*

Q When did you register?

A 1 registered in Aprils X don’t know the date*

Q Bid you register with the county officials?
A I did.

ME* HESSOHi Thank you very much* Mr* Cosby*
BY HR. BILLINGSLEY;

Q One question# Mr. Cosby| would you be willing to serve as a

member of the Jury Commission of Lowndes County, Alabama, if you 

were so appointed by the Governor of the State of Alabama?
A Yes, sir*

MR. BILLINGSLEY; That’s all*

CROSS EXAMINATION:



146

BI MR. BRADLEY:

Q flow, have you ever asked the Jury Commissioners of Lowndes 

County, Alabama, to put your nara© on the jury roll?
A H©? I haven’t®

Q Are you familiar with, the members of the Jury Commission of 
Lowndes County?

A I am not®

Q Ion don’t know Mr* Jackson?

A I know Mr* Jacksong 1 really don’t know who many members of the 
juries are* sir.

Q Have you made any effort to ascertain that fact?

A I haven’t.

MR. BSADLSIi That’s all®

MR* BILLIHQSLRTs Just on® moment®

JUDGE RX¥E8s Mr. Cosby, I don’t suppose you have 
asked Governor Wallace to appoint you on the Jury Commission, either, 

have you?

WITNESS: No, sir®

REDIRECT EXAMINATION:

BI MR. BILLINGSLEY:
Q Do you know Mr. Edward Lyon, L-Y-O-N?

A I do know some Lyons.

Q Do you know Mr. W* Francis Hahn?

A Bag your pardon?

Q W. Francis Rahn?



147

A No, six%

Q Do you know Mr. Fred Callison?
A No, sir*

Q Do you know Mr. Earnest Clayton Bondar?

A 1 know a Bender, I don’t know him by that name, the onliest —
I just know him by M s  last name, Bender.

Q You knew Mr# Tom L. Coleman?
A Personally, I don’t.

Q You do not?

A (Shook head t© indicate negative reply)
Q You don’t know whether or not any of those persons that 1 have 

just mentioned asked the Jury Commission to put their names oa 
the jury roll, do you?

A No, sir#

ME. BILLINGSLEY: That’s all.

JUDGE RXYESt Any other questions ©f this witness? 
ME. BRADLEYi (Shook head to indicate negative reply) 
JUDGE RIVES: You may com© down, Mr® Cosby, and you

may be excused.

MR* BESSON: lour honor, at this time I would have
called Mr. 1. C. May©. Mr. Mays*a address is Route 1, Boss 102, in 
Baynevilla. He is sixty-seven years of age. He was born in Lowndes 
County» He lias been a resident of Lowndes County all his life. He 
lives in the Gordonville community. His occupation was that he 
taught school when he was young for two years and has been a famer



148

in Lowndes County ever since. He owns his own house, and lie owns 
thirty-nine acres of land. H© has been paying taxes for nineteen 
years, H© is a family man, married in 1919* has ten. children® Four 
of the children went to Alabama State, two graduated from, therej 
the rest finished high school, He has one son —  has one son who 
was in Korea for two years, he has one son who was in World War II 
and saw action® Mis education consisted of the tenth ip^ad© at 
Alabama State® H@ is a church man, a Bishop of his church® He is 
Superintendent of the Sunday School, and he was Secretary to a 
State Convention of the Church of Christ® He is Secretary la the 
Masons, has been a Mason for twenty-eight years® He has had no 
arrests® He does not drink® He tea no physical defects® He would 
testify that he knows the Gorckmvill© community well and would be 
capable of giving names of persons who he thought were qualified to 
serve as jurors and of describing qualifications of other persons 

s© that someone else might judge® H© knows Mr® Marietta, he knows 
Mr® Luck Jackson® He has never been contacted! lies has never been 
asked to serve; and he would be willing to do so® Mr® May© 
registered to vot® in April, 1965, with the county officials®

JUDGE RIVES I It is stipulated that he would so 
testify if he took the stand?

MB.® HBSSGNs Yes, your honor*•

JUDGE RIVES: All right, it will be received as if
h© ted so testified®

MR# HESSOH: Mr. Dennis A. Linden, lives in



149

Lowndesboro. He was born in Louisiana and moved into Lowndes 

County in 1953* He received a high school education in Louisiana 

and spent four years at Tusk©gee, from 1946 t© *50, where he 

received a B.S. degree. His occupation is that he is a nursing 

Assistant at the Veterans Hospital here in Montgomery® H© has Mid 

that job for seme years® Mr* Linden is a married man* He has one 

child, age eleven* la the military service he served from 1942 to 

§45* H@ saw cot,bat action, received a Bronze Star and aa honorable 
discharge* His arrests, he has no arrests other than traffic 
violations* He would b© willing to servo —  h@ would be willing 

to serve on the jury* He has never been asked by the Commissioners 

©r approached by them for the names of parsons that he might suggest 
for jury service®

JUDGE RIVES: His testimony will be received as if
it were given from the stand as so stipulated®

MR. HESSOHi Mr® John Henry Webb is a resident in 

Gordonville, was b o m  in 1910® H© M s  lived in the county all M s  

life. He is a fames* by occupation® Received, an eleventh grade 

education^ and left school when his father died. He is married and 

has ten children. He is a church man and a Mason® He owns land, 

and he owns his own house. He has been paying taxes since 1954®
He has had no arrests or convictions. Would be willing to serve on 

juries®
JUDGE RIVES: His testimony may ba received as if

given in person as so stipulated®



150

MR. WESSONs Mr* Ed Moore King® His address is in 
HayneirilX®g Boss 175« He was b o m  in Balias County® Hq thirty*”two
years of age® He has lived in Lowndes County sine© 1957® Owns 

M s  own house and one and a half acres of land® He has paid taxes 

for the last three years® He was in the military from 1954 to *565 

was honorably discharged® He is a married man with two children*

A church M a »  H© received a B*S* degree at Alabama State 9 a 

Masters in Education at Alabama State* His occupation is that he 

is a teacher of the fifth grade in Fort Deposit. H© has been a 

member of the Masons for eight years, and has no arrests. He M s  

m m r  been called to serve on a jury. He would like fco serve, if 

h© could get time away from his school duties and be given that by 

the School Board. II© says he is well acquainted with M s  

community and with other —  some other communities in the county 
through activities in the school, church, aad the clubs to which 

h@ belongs. He would be able t© provide the names of persons who 

he considers to b® qualified to serve on juries and details about 
other persons such as someone else might judge.

JUDGE RIVESs His testimony will be received as if 
given in person.

ME. WESSON: Your honor, I believe that will be all
for the Negro witnesses that 1 will read to you at this time.

JUDGE RIVESJ Any further evidence for the plaintiff-
intervener?

ME. WESSONS Your honor, we were intending to put on



151

soae whit© witnesses * The defease counsel have asked our witnesses 

whether they have ever approached Jury Commissioners to ask whether 

they eaa serve. We have not had the opportunity to interview the 
white witnesses in detail on that question. We did not ask them 

that in our pretrial interviews. However, we havs spoken to one 

person, Mr* Wilbora Pettuss who would testify that he never volun­
teered for jury duty, and in fact he 1ms tried at sene times to 
get out of serving,

JUDGE BIVESs It is the Court's ©pinion, unless 
conns©! can convince us otherwise, it makes no difference whether 
a person asks to serve on a jury or not.

MR. HiSSOIt I agree, your honor* lour honor, 1 
would like to call Mr* Maurice Marietta*

JUDGE HIVES2 ill right, sir*

UNXDSIfT IF IE!) MAH Hi COBET EGClfj Mr, Maurice is in. 
the hospital hare, the Baptist Hospital.

JUDGE KNESt Mr* Mariette her©?

JUDGE ALLGOQD: He is in the. hospital.
JUDGE EIVESl All right.

MR. BESSON: lour honor, we took a deposition of Mr* 
Maurice Marietta before this trials I believe I would like to offer 
that deposition into evidence*

you?
JUDGE RXVESs All right, sir* Bo you have it with

MR, BESSON: I have a copy which 1 have used in



152

preparing for Mr. Marietta»s testimony, and it is substantially 
narked up with red pencil*

JUDGE RIVES? 1 believe it is up here, is it not?

MR® NBSSON. It should be in thesfag yes, your honor* 
JUDGE RIVESt Give it a number.

THE CLERKS Plaintiff-Intervenor*s Exhibit number 24* 

JUDGE RIVES: Mo objections to Mr* Marietta*s —

MR* fflADLUs Ho objections*

JUDGE RIVES® Mr. Mariettas deposition say be 
received in evidence*

MR* HESSGN: Finally, your honor, I would like to
offer to the Court several lists of names of persons in Lowndes 

County that have been identified by m e ©  by Mr. Joseph Jackson and 

by Mr® John H« Jackson. This was partially done this morning in 

the presence of counsel for the defendants, and spoke to Mr®. John 

Jackson in doing that. These lists are —

JUDGE RIVES1 I don?t exactly understand this list 

you ara offering nowg would you repeat what —  what this list is?

MR* NBSSONs Xes, your honor® Race appears on the 
emulative poll tax cards that we have put in evidence from the 

Probate office; however, there are a great many of those cards,and 

many persons have been purged from off the qualified voters list, 

so that some of the persons who have b@©n in the jury system since 

1953 have not bean identified by race by comparing them with the 

poll card, but what we have attempted to -- to do is prove -- show



153

In oar notebook that persons were drawn from the qualified voters 

list, and we have the statement both of the witness and the defense 

counsel that the voter lists were entirely white prior to the first 

of this year, so that is substantial race identification* However» 

to make sure, to b© complete* we took the names of persons on whoa 

ws had no poll tax cards and asked that- Mr, Jackson* Mr, John 

Jackson and Mr, Jo© Jackson* Identify thorn by race. They have done 

so here* and I would like to offer this to the Court,

JUDGE RIVES 2 If there is no object ion* they will b® 

received in evidence®

MR* M I L  I No objection,

THE CLERKS Plaintiff-Intervener8s Exhibit number 25, 

MR* ffiSSONi lour honor* that concludes the 

presentation for the Government®
JUDGE RIVESs All right* sir® Will the defendants 

introduce their evidence*
ME* BRADLEIi The defendant Jury Commission* your 

honor* has no testimony and rests*
MR* COLES Other defendants rest, your honor®

JUDGE RIVESs All right® Do the plaintiffs —  do the 

original plaintiffs have any further evidence?
MR* MORGANS No, sir j we have a stipulation we would 

like to enter into with the Attorney General if w@ might®

JUDGE RIVESS All right*

MR* MORGANS Perhaps he would like to stats it*



154

MR* FLOWERS! Your honor, possibly to explain my 

position here, when this suit was filed, it was assigned in ay office 

to Assistant Attorneys General Bradley and Hall, who have had a great 

deal of experience ia the defense of Jury Commissioners throughout 

the State® When I realised here today that this question of the 

woman jury service was being involved, that possibly could explain 

my presence here® I am —  have completely turned the —  this ease 

as far as the Jury Commissioners are concerned to the Assistants, 

and naturally my office, because of their capabilities and their 

experience, my office and the office of the Attorney General, rides 

with anything and stands with anything that they so stipulate or 

the defenses that they present* My presence here is in the women 

jury service question, and we are perfectly willing to stipulate 

in Lowndes County that there are a great many women, both Negro and 

white, if eligible, available for jury service®- Possibly and 

probably not all of these, but many of these are, both Negro and 

white, are even qualified for the serv3.ce® We would ask as far as «- 

JUDGE RITES S You mean if eligible by reason of sex? 

MR. FLOWERS: Yes, sir; if eligible*

JUDGE ElflSs They ara excluded only by reason of 

the fact that only males are permitted to servo on juries?

MR. FLOWERS: Yes, sir; absolutely, sir# And to

this question, as Attorney General of my State, all that I can say 

is that w® hop® that the Court will consider this as a legislative 

problem. I do consider it as that. My own personal feelings, as a



155

member of the State Senate of Alabama, when I wag honored to serve 

there, I did introduce a bill advocating women*® jury service# 1 

do stand for women*s jury service* 1 think that there are three 

states that are left in this nationi as far as our State is concerned, 
1 wish aad support very strongly women jury service have stated in 

speeches, lmv@ stated in arguments to juries that —  and am asidLug 

that we be allowed her© to correct the situation that w© are facing 

here today on a local level* That is the one way 1 would do this* 

Womens jury service is one way we could do this locally to widen 

and broaden the concepts of our jury system*

JUDGE RITESl Of course, the only question the 

Court has t© deal with is whether the Constitution requires it*

MR* FLOWERSs Iss, sirf whether constitutional, and 

w© foal and certainly hope that the Court will consider this is a 

legislative problem and that it is not a constitutional problem*
But as far as —  as women’s qualifications to serve as jurors, we 

ar© perfectly willing to stipulate that in Lowndes County and any 

other county that there ar© mnj  women, both legro and white, that 

could serve, available to serve, would serve, and would like to 
serve, and in fact I know that, because of my legislative experience, 

that there ar© a great many woman that have stated very strongly 
in this State that they would like service, because the University 

Women, I think the League of Woman Voters, have this sort of thing 

as on© ©f their projects| and we are certainly willing to stipulate 

in any manner they ar© available, and they are qualified, and we



156

certainly hope that the —  that the Court will decide that this is 

a problem for the Legislature* and that is cor —  my purpose in 
being h@r@ today*

JUDGE RXfSSs The other defendants faave no objection 
to this stipulation?

IE* PLOIfffiS? Well, as far as any objections, 1
couldn’t say*

MR* COLE? The stipulation was that the women are 
presently available, as X understand it?

MR* FLOWERS* That’s right.

JUDGE RIVES{ I couldn’t quite hear you?

MR* COLBI The stipulation was there are women 
presently available; we don’t have any objection*

JUDGE RIVESs ’ Yes*

MR* MORGAN: I would want it clearly understood that

the plaintiffs do not stipulate it is a matter for the Legislature®

JUDGE RIVESs We understand that part; it is 
argument* Any further evidence, gentlemen? The evidence is 

closed considerably before X thought it would b© closed* Do you 

gentlemen think that argument at this time would be helpful on this 
case, or should the case first be briefed? On the question of 

women jurors the case is going to have to be briefed, I am sure®

MR* HALL: X am prepared to do that, your honor#
JUDGE RIVESl Ias.
Ml* HALL; X think I have already done it for the



157

Sttpraai© Court®

MS* llESSOHi lour honor, 1 think that there ara 

amjor —  major problems with the nature of the relief that w© think 

would ba appropriate in this case* and we think it would be 

appropriate to consider that after briefs have been filed® There 

is a great deal of evidence, also, in the case® We have tried to 

analyse it in the time that was given to us before trial® There 

are things we would like to do still, and so we would request that 
we b© allowed to submit briefs to the Court®

JUDGE RIfESi Well, it occurs to me that the next 
term of Court is in April, so there is no real urgency to decide 

this cas© within the next month, though it should be promptly- 

decided within a reasonable time® B© you gentlemen, the plaintiffs, 
wish any argument in the case at this time?

MR. MORGANS Only in this respect, sirj we, of course, 
feel, as the Court states, we know the Court will expedite the 
matter® We feel as far as our plaintiffs are concerned, the 

existence of the jury system means a great deal to them now, even 

before the next tern of Court begins. With respect to our argument 

on the women jury question, Miss Kenyon is her©, and she is quite 

interested, of course ■—  Judge Kenyon, and I —  sh© la from flaw 

York, and I wondered if she could participate in an oral argument 
to that question alone very briefly?

{A conference was had by the Court)

JUDGE RIVES! The Court really thinks that this case,



156

in the position it is in, with the volume of testimony that is in ~~ 

ME# MORGAN* We think briefs are accessary, too.

JUDGE EXVSS5 —  it would be more helpful, to have 
the case briefed than to have it orally argued at this time.

MS* MORGANS That will be fine, but —  about how
many days —

JUDGE RIVES: We would be happy to hear from outside
counsel; we -- if we do, we would necessarily go into an argument 

of the entire case, and we would really prefer the case ba submitted, 

on briefs, if you gentlemen could —  how soon would the plaintiffs 
b© ready with their briefs?

MR. MORGAN: We can be ready just as soon as it is
necessary, your honor.

JUDGE RIVES? You think -- what is a reasonable time, 
wouldn’t push you too far, two weeks or ~

MR. MORGAN: Two weeks is fine.

JUDGE HIVES S How much?

MR. MORGANi Fine; two weeks is fine.

JUDGE RIVES: Two weeks for the plaintiffs.

MR# MORGAN! Yes, sir; mimeographed briefs will be
sufficient?

JUDGE HIVES: Yes, just so they can be plainly read.
ME. MORGAN! Sure.

JUDGE HIVES: And I presume the intervener plaintiffs
could have their briefs the — . we want briefs on both angles of this



159

case, you understands both on the race —  racial problem and on the 
soaen problem,

MR, MORGAN; W© intend to do that as much together 
as we can do. sirf yes, sir,

JUDGE H U E S  I How much time would the United States 
want on its brief?

IIS® NBSSONs Two weeks would b© fine, your honor*
JUDGE RIFES I Two weeks would b® enough* And would 

—  would an additional two weeks after the plaintiffs* briefs are 
in b© sufficient for the defendants?

MR, HALLs lour honor, as yon know, the Jefferson 
County Jury Board, case and about six other eases» cases frota Georgia 
and Louisiana and Texas, are all set for argument in lew Orleans 
before the whole Court on December 16 and 17®

JUDGE RXfESl That% right,

ME® HALLs I am going to have to be there and argue 
the Jefferson County Jury Board case at that time —

JUDGI RIFES I X@s, sir,

I®, HALLs —  and I would like to have as much time 
as the Court can allow mo after these other briefs ars in because 
of that situation. We have not only this case, but we have six 
other Jury Commission oases that are in the process of getting 
ready to be tried, too, so it’s —  it is going to push us quit© a 
bit| Mr, Bradley and 1 are the only oms that have worked on that 
phase of the work.



160

JUDGE RIVESS Gentlemen, If the plaintiffs take two 
weeks to get their briefs in, it will be around the 7th of November, 
or something of that kind*

MR# HALLs ?th cf December, your honor#
JUDGE RXVESs lou could have your briefs in ~  no, 

if will be about the 7th of December#
MR* HALL: Xus, sir#
JUDGE RIVESs Xou could have your briefs in by —  by 

the 1st of January, couldn’t you?
ME, HALLs Tas, sirg I am pretty sure — ■
® *  FLOWERSs Tes, sir? we will have it, your honor, 
JUDGE RIVESi The plaintiffs —  the defendants, then, 

have their briefs filed by the 1st of the year,
MR, HALLs The —  on the women question, I have 

already got that, but the other phases of the case —

JUDGE RIVESI There should ba a bri@f time, say one 
week, for any rebuttal briefs or reply briefs after the defendants* 
briefs are filed,

MR# MGHGAlft As I understand, then we have two weeks, 
then he has until the 1st of the year, a d  then w© hay© on© week 
for rebuttal*

JUDGE RIVESI That*s right,

MISS HESTONS Mr. Justice, might I ask if I might 
have perhaps ten minutes in what I actually believe is the easiest 
part of this entire case, because here we are not involved with an



161

enormous amount of evidence and a great many facts* Hera the issue 
is simply an issue of X&w, and Alabama is a very unusual State, in 
that it is on© of only three left in the United States which 
absolutely and mandatorily excludes women. I would like.* if 1 
might, your honors, I cams down here from New York in the special 
hope that in cooperating with Mr, Morgan I might have just a few 
moments to state my reasons for believing that the remedy which Mr, 
Flowers has stated of legislation is not sufficient in this 
particular case, and I promise to finish by three o*clock. But 
hn@ women at this moment in this Court would really like, your honors 
to have the last word*

JUDGE R U S S  I The Court is of the opinion that this 
involves a right serious constitutional question —

MISS KENTON: It doesj it does*
JUDGE RITCSs —  and it would «*«* until the question 

can be briefed, and we can have the authorities, that it would net 
fee helpful t© the Court to have oral argument upon it, so much as 
we would like to hear you, having ease that distance«

MISS KENTON: I will even cos® down to five aiimt.es,
your honor, because just saying something, plus a brief, can be, 
you know, your honor, yourself, more persuasive. Would you give me 
five minutes?

JUDGE HIVES: One© we open the door to oral argument,
we are going to have to hear pretty full oral argument, I am 
afraid



162

MISS KEIIX01I: I think they are mostly with me,
except Mr. Flowers, who wants the Legislature to act, and as I 
told him, if the Legislature will act tomorrow* I would be very
happy.

JUDGE HIVES: The Court is still of the opinion that
it does not car© to hear oral argument .

MISS KESfGHs Might we say* then* that we consider 
the statute of Alabama as absolutely irrational* without one single 
reason for its existence in this day and ags* that women have 
proved themselves as fully qualified citizens.* that they can make 
a great contribution* that many very fine woman want to serve* and 
some ©£ them* I am sure* in Lowndes County* that they are badly 
needed. Thera aren’t enough good jurors* and we all know that we 
need —

JUDGE RIVESl There is no question about those facts* 
MISS KENTON: And furthermore —
JUDGE RIVES I —  I don’t think.
MISS KENTONI —  that you need women *■**•*
JUDGE HIVESl Just o m  moment.
MISS KENTON: —  to help you.
JUDGE RIVESs I don’t think there is any of its will 

deny the facts, but we are here to decide purely a question of law* 
and that is what the Constitution requires.

MISS KENTON: Thank you very much for being so
patient with me* your honor.



163

JUDGE RIVES» And w® will have to decide it oa the 
basis of the record* Gentleman, the briefing schedule, I believe, 

has been agreed upon, and all of this expert testimony and, matters 
that you offered in evidence, Mr. Morgan, while you said seme of 
that kind of evidence was considered in the Brown case, it was not 
at that time —  that was not quite a closed question of law at 
that tia©» So far as the law is concerned hare, the law is pretty 
well settled that you cannot have an exclusion of Negroes from 
juries#

MR. MORGAN* Except on the wcaen question, your 
h.on©r| there is testimony in that deposition referring to that* 

JUDGE BlVESs Even on that we think the evidence 
can be more appropriately put in by way of argument* It is mostly 
purely argument, given opinions as to anything; you will be at 
liberty to attach any of that you may sa© fit t© your briefs.

MR* MORGANS All right, airf and the other —  the 
other deposition was purely as to remedy, I think.

JUDGE RX¥ESs Well, that will be for the advice of 
the Court, you may attach any ©f it you see fit to your briefs®

ME* MORGANS All right, sir®

JUDGE EIV1S s low, is it thoroughly understood as 
to what the briefing schedule is?

MR* MORGANS I have two weeks; yes, sir#
MR* HALL: W® have until January 1®
JUDGE RIVESS Are there any other matters, now, then,



164

to ccrae. before fell© Court? 1 believe* so far as your jury question 

is concerned* with you having withdrawn your demand for damages, 

that the jury problem probably goes out of the case* because w© will 

not reach a question of awarding any damages?

MR* MORGANS Hot in this case g no* sir#

JUDGE RIVESs Mot in this case*

MR* COLES Judge* excuse me* as t© the other 
defendants other than the Jury Commission and Clerk* there hasn’t 

bean a word of evidence* and I wondered if you m a t  that —  that 
part of it included in* or shall we brief that?

JUDGE RXVESs Wall* w© are taking those motions 
under advisement along with the —  with the case* The only thing 

that occurred to me, that the otter defendants might have to stay in 

on* is on the question of remedy# I aa not so sura that they would 
go out if we reach a remedy is which they might b@ involved* but 

at any rate w© will pass upon those along with the rest of the case# 

MR® MORGANS Tour honor* might 1 make one request 
of the Court? Is there any —  the Exhibits, of course, are 

voluminous* but I was wondering about the transcript of the oral 

testimonyl is tter© any possibility of the preparation of that in 
th@ not too distant future, in a week or so?

JUDGE RXVESs Judge Johnson tells me the court 

reporter will b© in court until Christmas time almost constantly —  
MR# MORGANS That is all I wanted to know#

JUDGE RIVES: so it will almost be impossible to



165

hav© the testimony transcribed* Then subject to the further orders 
of th® Court, gentlemen., C o w t  will stand adjourned®
J«»}C # s j e  a »  s »  & ¥  * *  $ *  jfrage « s  2|s:fs sf!3§s $ $  j ^ s jfB fc  $ $  # #

II THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 
FOE THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF ALABAMA.
NORTHERN DIVISION
I, Glynn Henderson* Official Court Reporter of the United States 
District Court for the Middle District of Alabama* do hereby 
certify that the foregoing 165 pages contain a true and correct 
transcript ©f proceedings had before the said Court held in the 
City of Montgomery, Alabama, in tlm matter therein stated®
In testimony whereof I hereunto set my hand on this th® 10th day 
of February* 1966®