Mapp Et Al v Board of Education of the City of Chattanooga TN Joint Appendix Volume III
Public Court Documents
January 1, 1964 - January 1, 1971
649 pages
Cite this item
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Mapp Et Al v Board of Education of the City of Chattanooga TN Joint Appendix Volume III, 1964. 8c677302-bd9a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/4d7ea6a5-6c55-4d57-be25-e873e4089062/mapp-et-al-v-board-of-education-of-the-city-of-chattanooga-tn-joint-appendix-volume-iii. Accessed June 06, 2025.
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IN THE
UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE SIXTH CIRCUIT
Nos.712006 and 712007
JAMES JONOTHAN MAPP ET AL. ,
Plaintiffs-Appellants and
Cross-Appellees4
versus
BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE CITY OF
CHATTANOOGA,TENN. ET AL.,
Defendants-Appellees and
Cross-Appellants
ON APPEAL FROM THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR
THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE SOUTHERN DIVISION
JOINT APPENDIX - VOLUME III
Tr. pgs. 645 - 1287
RAYMOND B.WITT,ESQ.
Witt.Gaither,Abernathy
& Wilson
1100 American National
B^nk Building
Chattanooga,Tenn.37402
EUGENE COLLINS, ESQ.
Pioneer Building
Chattanooga, Tenn.
Attorneys for
Defendants-Appellees
and Cross-Appellants
AVON N. WILLIAMS, JR. ESQ.
Suite 1414 Parkway Towers
404 James Robertson Parkway
Nashville, Tenn. 37219
JACK GREENBERG, ESQ.
JAMES M. NABRIT,III, ESQ.
NORMAN J. CHACHKIN, ESQ.
SYLVIA DREW, ESQ.
Suite 2030
10 Columbus Circle
New York, New York 10019
Attorneys for Plaintiffs-Appellants
and Cross-Appellees
I N D E X
Witness Page
GEORGE W. JAMES
Direct Examination by Mr. Witt............... 645
Cross Examination by Mr. Williams............ 671
Redirect Examination by Mr. Witt............. 702
Recross Examination by Mr. Williams.......... 704
Redirect Examination by Mr. Witt............. 708
Recross Examination by Mr. Williams.......... 709
CLIFFORD LEE HENDRIX, JR.
Direct Examination by Mr. Witt............... 711
Cross Examination by Mr. Williams............ 716
FRANKLIN SCANLON McCALLIE
Direct Examination by Mr. Witt............... 720
Cross Examination by Mr. Williams............ 730
Redirect Examination by Mr. Witt............. 746
Recross Examination by Mr. Williams.......... 754
CLAUDE CONKLIN BOND
Direct Examination by Mr. Witt............... 758
Cross Examination by Mr. Williams............ 769
Redirect Examination by Mr. Witt............. 817
Recross Examination by Mr. Williams.......... 827
Redirect Examination by Mr. Witt............. 835
Recross Examination by Mr. Williams.......... 836
JAMES B. HENRY
Direct Examination by Mr. Witt............... 839
NO. Description
For
Id.
In
Evd.
49 Letter mailed to Director of
requesting recruiting date
Placement
647 647
50 Follow-up letter to visit on campus 649 649
M I f H I ' M K H I <• i H > Nfr P< ■ f H
1 n i l s I n S I M I M ( \ " M!
j
itjjj ii.
I N D E X (continued)
;i
No.
j
EXHIBITS (continued)
For InDescription Id. Evd.
«ii "Recruiting, 1970-71" 650 650
t 52i
J
"Chattanooga Public Schools Offer
You" 652 652
i 53
1
Eligibility evaluation form 653 653
•1 5 4 Application forms 654} 654
y 55 Form letter A, Recruiting 657 657
‘ 56 Form letter B, Recruiting 659 659
1 : 57 Form letter C, Recruiting 660 660
I I j 58 Form letter D, Recruiting 661 661
i | < 59 Form letter K, Recruiting 662 662
1i
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|
60 Reference forms 666 666
1 . ! 61 Portfolio of school policies at■i Howard High School 714 714
1
i 62 Document 725 725
i •.
63 Statement 736 736
•
1 1
64 Press clipping 737 737
•
65 Materials containing transfer policies
used by School Board 796 796
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66 Civil Rights Coassittion * s publication 832 832
V
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ii ' 1 ^ ’ 1 M . ' . l A i f t , L>l S f W l*’. T f O i w i
i.
I N D E X
Witness Page
JAMES B. HENRY
Cross Examination by Mr. Williams..
Redirect Examination by Mr. Witt...
Recross Examination by Mr. Williams
Redirect fixami nation by Mr. Witt...
Recross Examination by Mr. Williams
858
892
915
930
935
JAMES HENRY HEUSTESS
Direct Examination by Mr. Witt....
Cross Examination by Mr. Williams..
Redirect Examination by Mr. Witt...
Recross Examination by Mr. Williams
946
1015
1026
1027
j a m e s d . m c c u e l o u g h
Direct Examination by Mr. Witt...
Cross Examination by Mr. Williams
Redirect Examination by Mr. Witt.
1028
1039
1061
No.
EXHIBITS
inscription
For
Id.
In
Evd.
67 Letter from Dr. Martin to Director
of Equal Educational Opportunities
of the State of Tennessee 860 860
68 Newletter from the Nashville Center
for Research and Information on Equal
Education Opportunity 930 930
69 Current status of desegregregating
teaching staffs 960 960
70 "Chattanooga Public Schools, Chatta-
nooga, Tennessee, Statistical Reports
on Staff Desegregation, Chattanooga
Public Schools, 1970-71" 974 974
71 "Vacancies to Date, 76“ 1006 1006
• A l C O O « *■ p o m i e h
MRS. NITA LAWSON NARDO
Direct Examination by Mr. Witt............. 1072
Cross Examination by Mr. Williams.....!.!.! 1127
Redirect Examination by Mr. Witt........... 1167
HOUSTON CONLEY
Direct Examination by Mr. Witt............. 1169
Cross Examination by Mr. Williams.......... 1181
Redirect Examination by Mr. Witt........... 1186
ROBERT ARMSTRONG TAYLOR
Direct Examination by Mr. Witt............. H89
Cross Examination by Mr. Williams.......... 1216
Redirect Examination by Mr. Witt........... 1231
RecroBS Examination by Mr. Williams........ 1234
DEAN HOLDEN
Direct Examination by Mr. Witt............. 1236
YALE RAVIN
Direct Examination by Mr. Williams......... 1239
DEAN HOLDEN
Direct Examination by Mr. Witt (continued)... 1265
EXHIBITS
For InNo. Description Id. .
i.
I N D E X
Witness pn3?
72 Proposal of Chattanooga Board of
Education dated December 30, 1964 1075 1075
73 Proposal regarding School Board
grant for programs in education
submitted to HEW on May 19, 1965 1086 1086
74 Team-teaching proposal transmitted
April 27, 1966 1094 1094
ii.
I N D E X (continued)
EXHIBITS (continued)
t-
o'!Z
1 Description
For
Id.
In
Evd.
75
!
"Chattanooga Public Schools, Chatta
nooga, Tennessee, Staff Desegregation
Report, May 1, 1967 1105 1105
76
i
List of teachers 1110 1110
• 77 "Staff Desegregation Report" 1110 1110
78
i
Memorandum from Dr. Martin to
all professional staff personnel 1115 1115
i 7 9
t
"Proposal for School Board Grant
Program on School Desegregation
Problems" 1124 1124 1
80 "Special Program for Educational
Executive Development Prospectus" 1173 1173
■ 81 In-service training pamphlet 1179 1179
i 82 Document dated April 12, 1971,
addressed to Dr. James B. Henry 1178 1178
83 Summary statement 1199 1200
, 84 Listing of personnel of Clara
Carpenter Elementary School 1206 1206
•
85 Material regarding students
currently being trm s ferred to
areas by race 1235
i1
l<si35
86!
|
Information regarding applications
on file as of May 12, 1971, for
teaching positions 1236
•i
1236
i 87 Request form for transfer 1238 1238 |
1 88 Resume of Mr. Ravin's experience 1241 1241
i
i 89 Census map 1245 1256
| 90 Tabular representation of the census 1248 1248
iii.
I N D E X (continued)
EXHIBITS (continued)
No. Description
For
Id.
In
Evd.
91 Document 1255 1255
92 Form 1266 1266
93 "Revised Policies Governing Out-of-
Zone Enrollment" 1271 1271
94 "Zoning Policies" 1272 1272
95 School Year Bulletin, 1970 1274 1274
96 "Pupil Accounting, Part 1" 1275 1275
97 Policy governing the transition
of single school zone lines
implementing the Chattanooga plan
of desegregation 1276 1276
98 Information regarding transfers 1279 1279
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FOURTH DAT OF TRIAL
May 12, 1971
WtdMiday,
9:00 O'clock, A. M.
(Thereupon, pursuant to adjournment on Tuesday,
May 11, 1971, court reconvened, and the following proceedings
were had, to-wit:)
GEORGE W. JAMES,
called as a witness at the instance of the defendant, being
first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. HITT:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
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Q State your name, please.
A George W. Jams.
Q By whom are you employed?
A Presently employed by the Chattanooga Public
Schools.
Q And, in what capacity are you employed?
A I am Director of Professional Personnel.
Q How long have you been in that capacity?
A About 13 months.
Q Now, in your present capacity as Director of
Professional Personnel with the Chattanooga school system,
would you describe your present responsibilities?
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
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James - Direct 646
A My present responsibilities primarily are
coordinating teacher recruitment, teacher placement, and
working very closely with principals and other administrative
heads of — to determine their needs.
Q Now, how do you go about attempting to discharge
this responsibility?
A Hell, we visit the various colleges and universitd
in primarily the southeastern part of the United States.
MR. WILLIAMS: I am not hearing very well.
THE WITNESS: He visit the colleges and university
in the southeastern part of the United States, primarily.
BT MR. WITT:
Q Do you communicate with these colleges prior to
your visit?
A Yes, we correspond with the placement directors
and schedule recruiting dates and visit them — visit the
campuses to talk with prospective graduates.
Q I hand you a document on the letterhead of the
Chattanooga Public Schools. Would you please identify this?
A Yes, this is one of the letters that we mailed
to the Director of Placement at the various institutions
requesting a recruiting date.
Q Would you make this an exhibit to your testimony?
THE COURT: Exhibit 49.
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L . C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
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(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit Mo.
49 for identification. Witness
Mr. Janes, and received in evident
BY MR. WITT:
Q Mow, Mr. Janes, vould you nans the institutions
to tWxon this letter or siailar letter was sent?
A Sane of the institutions that the letters wore
sent to and that we have visited included Lane College at
Jackson, Tennessee; Alabama State University at Montgomery,
Alabama; Memphis State University at Memphis; Lambert College,
Jackson; Tuskegee Institute at Tuakegee, Alabama; Auburn
University at Auburn; University of Tennessee at Chattanooga;
North Georgia College at Dahlonega; University of Alabama,
Tuscaloosa; Alabama A&M University at Normal, Alabama; Atlanta
University System, which includes, of course, Clark, Morehouse
Spelman, and Morris Brown; West Georgia College at Carlton;
Berry College at Rome; Tennessee State University at Nashvilli
Tennessee Tech at Cookeville; David Lipscomb at Nashville;
Middle Tennessee State at Murfreesboro; Austin Peay at
Clarkvilla; Peabody at Nashville; University of Tennessee at
Athens; East Tennessee State at Johnson City; Knoxville at
Knoxville, Tennessee; Berea at Berea, Kentucky; Kentucky Statl,
Prank fort; Carson-Newman at Jefferson City; Fisk University an
Nashville; Port Valley State, Port Valley, Georgia.
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T F R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
James - Direct 648
I an hoping to leave today for Florida State
University at Tallahassee and Florida A6M University at
Tallahassee and Payne College in Augusta, Georgia, along with
a few others that 1 failed to none.
Q How, are you aware of the publicity that's given
to the student body in advance of your visit?
A Yes.
Q What form does this usually take?
A Usually the placement directors of the various
institutions will circulate the information concerning the
♦’■he interviewers visiting their campuses so that it
will be accessible and made available to the student body.
Q The institutions that you listed, what is the
racial composition? Are you aware of the racial composition
in general of the institutions that you visited?
A Yes, to some extent. I think of the number of
campuses that we have visited or we plan to visit this year,
18 of them are predominately black colleges of the 40, I
believe was 40 — 42 or 43 colleges and universities.
Q Mr. James, I hand you another, appears to be a
form letter over your signature and ask you to identify this,
please.
A Yes, this is a follow-up letter that we sent
after having confirmed the date of our visit and acknowledging
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
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Jamas - Direct 649
to visit the campus.
THE COURT: Exhibit No. 50.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
50 for identification, witness Mr.
___ James, and received in evidence.)BY MR. WITT:
Q Now, are the students advised of your visit in
our appreciation to them for providing ua with the opportunity
advance?
A Yes.
0 What — in what manner, what procedure is usually
followed to advise the students that you are ooming?
A Well, prior to our visit, we would have made
contact with the placement officer at least a month or two
in advance. A week prior to our visit, we, of course, will
send them our printed material, a small brochure, and two or
three days in advance, we will call them long distance to
ask how many persons we have on our schedule. This is done
to determine the number of interviewers that we should send.
Q I hand you a document entitled "Recruiting, 1970-'
Would you please identify this?
A Yes. This recruiting schedule was completed
about the first of September. We began to work on this in
July and completed it about the first of September. If you
know, we begin our recruiting in October and will terminate
i 1
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Janes - Direct 650
it mid-May. t
0 Mould you maka this exhibit, I believe, mould be
No. 51, to your testimony?
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above vas marked Exhibit No.
51 for identification, witness Mr.
James, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT;
Q At Memphis state, do you recall approximately
the number of students that indicated interest in interview?
A I believe w talked with possibly ten or twelve
persons at Msmphis State.
Q Would there be — would this be an average number
or would there be such a thing as an average number?
A That is approximately the average number. We
could possibly have talked with maybe twelve or thirteen.
0 Bow long would the average interview require?
A Twenty-five to thirty minutes. Actually, it*a
at 30-minute intervals, but we allow 25 minutes for the
interview and 5 minutes to evaluate the interview and co^ile
our material.
0 During this interview, you give any material to
the — excuse me. I hand you a document, printed pamphlet,
entitled "Chattanooga Public Schools Offer You.* Would you
please identify this?
A Yes, this is a little samll, we cell it, brochure,
R I C H A R D S M I T H O E F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
James - Direct
really, nothing but a pamphlet. It was dona very hurriedly
just prior to our beginning recruiting schedule. He nailed
this to thee prior to the interview to give thee soae back-
ground and some information about the Chattanooga Public
Schools.
At the termination of the interview, we also give
fK— one of these as well as an application and suggest that
they read this carefully as they consider us and also complete
an application.
q nr. James, what kind of questions do the students
n««k you during the course of these interviews?
A Well, normally they will ask something about the
public schools, the Chattanooga public schools, the type of
system, something about the pay scale, something about the
community, its climate, and very seldom, we anticipate
questions about the cultural climate of the community, but
we don't often get that.
We do find sometimes a greatly number of them
are interested in their continuing — their continuing their
education. They will ask something about our graduate school
the close proximity to nearby metropolitan cities where
they can continue with their education and this type of thing.
q Do you have an evaluation form to use during the
course of these on-campus —
*51
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
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Jess»s - Direct 652
A (Interposing) Yea.
0 (Continuing) — evaluations?
A Yes, we do. And —
0 (Interposing) I beg your pardon. Would you make
the pamphlet exhibit —
THE COURT: (Interposing) Pifty-two.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above tree marked Exhibit Ho,
52 for identification. Witness Mr.
James, and received in evidence.)
BY MR, WITT:
Q Pifty-two, please.
A We have what we call an on-ernepus eligibility
evaluation form and on this form, of course, we get oartain
personal data information such as permanent address, because
most of them are graduating seniors and we need to know their
permanent addressi the type of degree that they are getting,
their major, something about their overall academic record.
Some institutions provide us with an on-campus
interview form that we can keep and some don't, so depending
upon whether or not we can bring this on-campus form with us
is dependent upon whether we get this information. Of course,
we need to get some feedback as to their interest and extra
curricular activities. Along with that, we get some other
information about their physical and personal personality
characteristics as well as aptitude and professional outlook
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
1 653
R
f
from a standpoint of najor fiald interests and teaching
philosophy and thsir intsrsst in teaching and it’s a checklist
Janes - Direct
4 typo of thing, dealing with behavioral patterns primarily.
5 Q would you make this Exhibit Ho. 53 to your
11 testimony?
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(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No. 53
for Identification, Witness Mr.
James, and received in evidence.)
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BY MR. WITT:
Q Now, as a result of this interview, do you prepare
this evaluation?
A Well, it is prepared in the Division of Staff
Personnel.
Q well —
ir. A (Interposing) You talking about the —
17 Q (Interposing) Directing your attention to the
18 reverse side of the interview record?
10 A Yes, yes, yes , the suasoary comments.
20 Q Yes.
21 A Yes, yes.
*>•> Q And, you make the determination with reference
28 to your judgment as to —
21 A (Interposing) Right.
Q (Continuing) — the appearance and poise and
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Janes - Direct 654
other Betters?
A Right, tie do this.
Q And, these are subjective judgments upon your
part?
A Right.
Q Are they?
A Yes, yes, sir.
Q Mow, in the course of these interviews, do you
deliver to the interviewees an application form?
A Yes, we do, we do. And, we give all of the
persons that we interview an application form and suggest that
they cocaplete it and indicate to them that we will be very
happy to process it for then.
Q You have one of these application forms —
A (Interposing) Yes, I do.
Q (Continuing) — available? Mould you make this
Exhibit 55?
THE COURT: Fifty-four.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit Mo.
54 for identification, Witness Mr.
James, and received in evidenoe.)
BY MR. WITT:
Q Does this application have instructions attached
to it?
A Yes, we have instructions enclosed.
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
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Q And, this is — believe this is a pert of this
exhibit, although it's not attached to it?
A Tea, it's included on the inside, separate sheet.
q Do you go over these instructions with the
interviewee, usually?
A Yes, yes, we tell them that the instructions are
enclosed and suggest that they look at thee and if there are
any questions, we will try to answer them for them.
q Mr. James, I notice that at the bottom of the
page entitled "important Instructions to Applicants," there
is a reference to national teacher examination scores. Would
you describe what this is, briefly, the national teacher —
A (Interposing) The national teachers examination
is an examination that is given by the Educational Testing
Service out of Princeton, New Jersey, we, as a school system,
do not require that you make a certain score nor is it a
prerequisite for employment. However, we do require that you
take it during your first year of employment in the Chatta
nooga public school system.
q What does this particular examination attempt to
determine?
A Actually, I would think that maybe — you —
Attorney Witt addressed this question to the Assistant
Superintendent.
Janes - Direct 655
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Q Nell, just your understanding of what it attempts
to do.
A I think it measures aptitude and your — measure
area of concentration as well as other areas, allied areas.
Q Is it a guarantee that the person will be a good
teacher?
A I don't think so, personally.
Q Are there other similar tests that could have
been used in addition to the national teacher examination
test?
A Nell, possibly there are; but I think this is the
most acceptable one.
q This is considered the most reliable, then —
A (Interposing) Right, yes, sir.
Q (Continuing) — test? Now, what is the next
step in this recruitment process after you have returned to
Chattanooga?
A The next step in the recruitment process is a
follow-up letter that we send all persons that we have talked
with on the campus. And, of course, we have four types of
letters that we send; and, of course, we refer to them as
A, D, C, D, and £.
The A letter is the more encouraging one. This
is the top letter, of course. This is the one that the
James - Direct 65S
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prospect, we really want.
0 I hand you a form lattar that haa tha lattar "A*
on it.
A Right.
Q Would you identify this?
A Tea, this is the one that is more encouraging to
the applicant, to the person that we have talked with.
Q Would you make this Exhibit 55?
THE COURT: Fifty-five.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No. 55
for identification. Witness Mr.
Janes, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT:
Q Now, would you explain to the Court the signiflean
of this letter as compared with the other letters?
A Well, this letter here indicates that we are
highly encouraging to the applicant, to the person that we
have interviewed for an early commitment for employment. Hie
other one, the other ones are not as encouraging as possibly
this one, and we rate them A, B, C, D — actually there is
five — E.
And, what we do, we look at the on-campus evaluati
form and we will grade them, and, of course, give them to the
secretary. And, she will in turn send this letter to, whether
it's an A, B, or C, or D, or E letter.
J«m > - Direct 657
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Direct <>58
Q What individuals participate in this evaluation
process that you have described other than yourself?
A well, no one but ayself, really, in this particular
type of evaluation, see, because on an occasion, Z night not
have been the person to visit campus. We have principals and
others who will on occasion do sons of the recruiting. There
will be sons ta— recruiting by scow other persons.
Q But, this, you use the tern "we,* Z assume you
meant —
A (Znterposing) Well, Z mean we can determine from
their sum&ary comments and how they have checked the
personality traits of the person that they have talked with
as to whether or not they would, of course, be classified or
rated A, B, C, or d .
Q Why the need for an early commitment?
A Because these persons, Z am sure, are being
considered by other school systems, because they are top
priority people. And, we, of course, want to get them in our
school system.
Q The competition for the good prospect is —
A (Znterposing) Very, very keen.
Q Is this true at most of the institutions that
you visit?
A Yes, yes.
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Q Are there any particular exceptions?
A Tes, particularly for black teachers.
Q In what way?
A They are very difficult to recruit, black teachers
are.
Q Now, you nade a reference to another category
letter which you describe as B. I hand you a forts letter that
contains the alphabet letter "B" on it. Is this the B-type
letter that you referred to?
A Tea, yea, this is the B-type letter that we
refer to.
Q Would you sake this Exhibit No. 56 to your
testimony?
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
56 for identification. Witness Mr.
James, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT:
Q Now, how is this letter different from letter A?
A Well, actually, there is a difference in —
possibly rather difficult, if you notice, the last paragraph
will explain it and if you would like, I can read it.
Q All right.
A Letter A says, "If there are any steps which you
have not taken to casqplete an application, we hope you will
do so immediately so that we can have the opportunity of
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Janes - Direct 660
evaluating your credentials early. Please feel free to call
us — call on us at any time if we can be of assistance to
you."
The B letter says, "If there are any steps which
you have not taken to complete the application, we hope you
will do so immediately. Please feel free to call on us at
any time if we can be of assistance to you."
See, we are not pushing them quite as hard in
B as we are in A.
Q All right. Mow, I hand you another form letter
which ha8 the letter "C" on it. This would be — would you
identify this?
A Yes.
Q This is the C letter that you referred to earlier?
A Yes, this is the letter.
Q All right. Would you make this Exhibit Mo. 58?
THE COURT: Fifty-seven.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit Mo.
57 for identification. Witness Mr.
James, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT:
Q All right. Now, just identify the distinguishing
difference between this letter and letter B.
A All right. The distinction here, as you know I
mentioned A and B, that we had said something about being
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1 James - Direct 661
encouraging at all. The last sentence in the eeoond paragraph
4 in D A says, "On the basis of your interview, we can be
o highly encouraging to you if you decide that Chattanooga is
<• the place you would like to start your teaching career."
In latter C, the last sentence says, "We hope you
will consider our schools as a place where you would like to
begin your teaching career."
Just a little word difference there, that's all.
q All right. Now, I hand you a form letter labeled
"D." Would you — is this a form letter that you use?
A Tes, this is the form letter.
Q Would you make this Exhibit No. 58?
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
58 for identification, Witness Mr.
James, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT:
2 highly encouraging. Well, in letter C, we don't Mention highly
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q Now, call your attention to the principal dis
tinction — difference between this letter and letter C.
A In this letter we really let them have it. We
say, "Your field of specialization is a crowded one and we
will have limited vacancies; however, we would be happy to
process an application for you and will give it serious
consideration if vacancies do occur."
q All right. Can you identify the fields of
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specialization that are crowded?
A rlelds like social studies, English, health and
physical education, business education.
Q Mow, would this be true for black and white
applicants?
A Yes.
Q There's no distinction here?
A Mo distinction.
Q Now, I hand you a form letter labeled "E. * is thin
a form letter that you use in your process?
A Yes, this is a form letter that we use in our
process.
Q Would you make this Exhibit No. 59 to your
testimony, please?
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
59 for identification. Witness Mr.
James, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT:
Q Now, explain, please, Mr. James, the message of
this letter.
A Well, essence of this letter reads thusly, however
well, I will start at the — pardon me — "Vacancies in our
system are usually rather limited and we cannot be too
encouraging to you about a position; however, places do come
open during the lste summer end if you desire to complete an
Jaws - Direct 462
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Janes - Direct 663
application, we shall be glad to prooess it for our considera
tion. Please accept our best wishes to you as you go forward
to beginning your career."
Q Mow, Mr. Janes, what's the next step in the
recruitnent prooess after these letters are nailed back?
A Mall, the next step is to acknowledge our apprecia
tion to the placement director of the personal contacts at
the college or university that we have visited. We will write
then a letter acknowledging our appreciation for providing us
with a good schedule in making available to us the use of
their facilities for recruiting.
Q In this recruiting process, do you — do you
compete with recruiters from other public schools?
A Definitely.
Q Are these recruiters from one particular area or
otherwise?
A No# they come from all over, as far away as
California, eastern part of the United States, New York,
Connecticut, as far south as Miami, Dade County — highly
competitive out there.
U All right. When do you start receiving actual
applications, generally?
A Usually about two to three weeks after we have
visited a campus. WO ask the applicant to wait until he has
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664
begun his student teaching if he has not already done so — if
he or she has not already done so. And, this gives us an
opportunity to get some feedback, a little more valid informa
tion frost the standpoint of reference from the supervising and
critic teacher. So sometimes this slows the process.
But, normally if they have met all requirements
including student teaching, we get them back in about two
weeks.
Q
A
Q
A
Is student teaching a requirement for consideration?
Yes, it is.
Mould you explain why this is important?
Well, it is important because of the fact that
we have, in trying to upgrade the professional staff of the
Chattanooga public schools, we are attempting to employ those
persons with professional teachers' certification only; and
in order to do so, they must or should have followed a teacher
education curricula and student teaching is a basic require
ment for such, and we prefer to employ persons who have
actually classroom experience as student teachers, because
we feel that those persons would have made the mistakes as
student teachers prior to employment rather than come in and
not have had any actual teaching experience and make it on the
job.
q Does this student teaching, is it limited to the
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last year in college or last semester or when?
A It's usually limited to the last senior year, the
last year in oollege.
Q Do you seek, the evaluation of the person that
supervised the student teaching of each applicant?
A Yes, yes, yes. On the application, we ask them
to give the name of the critic teacher and usually they will
list the supervising teacher, that is, the college supervising
teacher. The critic teacher is the regular classroom teacher
that they are working with.
Q All right. Once you have received these applica
tions , do you take any steps to evaluate and verify the
information?
A Well, not until we have — not until we have
processed and by that we mean that we would have sent references
materials to all persons listed for references including the
critic teacher. Occasionally they will have this information
in their pi ■ resinnt file in the placement office at the various
colleges and universities and we can request it from that
source.
Q Do you have copies of the material that you use
to — for evaluation of these people that are represented?
Do you have that with you?
A No, I don't. I don't have that. I think you
J i m s - Direct *65
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eight h m those.
0 Mr. Janas, I hand you a form.
A Yes.
Q That on« is pink, one is green and one is blue and
one is yellow. You have all four?
A I have pink, blue, and green. I don't have a
yellow.
Q Mould you identify these, please?
A Yes, these are the fores — reference fores that
m nail.
Ju m s - Direct 666
Q All right. Mould you make these together Exhibit -
THE COURT: (Interposing) Sixty.
(Thereupon, the documents referred
to above were marked Exhibit No.
60 for identification, Witness Mr.
James, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT:
Q All right. Mr. James?
A Yes.
Q First one, I believe, is pink?
A Right.
Q What is its use?
A The pink one is for teaching experience primarily.
Q To whom is it sent?
A Sent to the previous employer.
Q All right.
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A And, the next copy, I b s l i m , is blue or is that
grssn?
0 Grssn. What is its use?
A Its oss is primarily for tbs student teaching
sxpsrisnos reference, and I would think that it would be sent
to the critic teacher or the college supervisor teacher.
q All right. Then, the next copy is the blue copy?
A Mall, this would be a non-teaching experience,
somebody that they would list as a reference, maybe a neighbor
or minister or a friend or roaestate or somebody like this.
q All right. And then what use is made of the
yellow form?
A The same, really, a friend. They list godparent
or somebody like this.
Q Are there any other means of following up on this
information?
A Well, I mentioned on an occasion they won't list
references. They will say that the reference is in the
office of placement at the institution that they would have
graduated from. We find that this is becoming more and more
popular with the college graduate. They will complete this
information while in college and it remains there over a
period of years just as a transcript, you see. You just write
bade to the placement officer, ask that they send the placemec
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file for a partitular applicant.
And, even if the pzofesaor is no longer there, the
person that, of coarse, would give then a recosssendation, this
inf creation will remain with the institution. So, ns get this
information fran placeswnt quite often now.
q Do you recall approximately how many students
that you interviewed in the last — since, say, September,
approximately?
A Let me see, I would think that we have visited
approximately 35 colleges and universities and we have talked
with, on the average, 10 to 12 students. So, we can assess
it from that.
q Do you — are you aware of how many applications
you have actually received as of this time as a result of your
efforts?
A I am not — but I really don't know. I knew how
many we have on file.
q How many?
A At this time?
q How many applications do you have on file?
A Well, as of April 7th, we had about 800 applicants
applications on file.
q How would you age these applications?
A Well, none of these were more than two years old.
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q I I M . Ordinarily, about hem many teacher® are
employed each year, new teachers?
X For the opening of school last year, we employed
140 teachers. During the school year, I think we would have
employed approximately 200 or a little more, and these posit
of course, were created by persons having taken leaves of
absence or resigned.
q Is the 200 figure, does it include the earlier
figure or is that —
A (Interposing) That is included in the 140 that
we opened school with back in August.
q so, as of now, you have approximately 200 teachers
that were not in the system last year?
A Yea, maybe a little more than that; but I know
we opened school with 140.
q Approximately how many teachers are there in the
city school system?
A Thirteen hundred and something, I don't recall
the exact number.
q Hr. James, believe I forgot to ask you about
your earlier educational experience. Where did you attend
college?
A I graduated from Clark College at Atlanta, Georgia
I received my undergraduate bachelor's degree; my master's
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from Indiana Univarsity. Blockington.
q And what waa your master's in?
A Health and physical education.
0 When were you first employed by the Chattanooga
school system?
A 1951.
q And what was your assignment?
A I was director of athletics and head football coach
at Howard High School for some 14 years. And, for the last
two years prior to my coming back to city schools, I was
employment adviser, public relations aide to the Chattanooga
Manufacturing Association and last April 1 came back to
Qiattanooga public schools as Director of Professional
Personnel.
q Mr. James, in your activities as athletic director
at Howard High School, are you generally aware of the athletic
situation in the high schools in the City of Chattanooga?
A Tes, to some extent I am.
q d o you recall the approximate time that the
athletic leagues in the city — in the city school system
were desegregated?
A Yes, it was 1966-67 that the HIL was desegregated.
That was the original, local athletic league, comprising, of
course, city and county schools, Hamilton County interscholastic
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league and the predominately black schools were taken in.
However, 1 understand — well, I know that the HIL
presently is still in existence. However, the county schools
are no longer members of the HIL. They are now referred to
as the HCL, Hamilton County League, and they are no longer in
existence or a part of HIL.
So, the city schools are primarily HIL, now, I
think. Five, along with, I think, Baylor is a member of HIL.
MR. WITT: I have no further questions of this
witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q Mr. James, has there always been a director or
coordinator of personnel in the Chattanooga school systems?
A No, I have not. I became Director of Professional
Personnel last April.
Q Which is it, director or coordinator?
A Director. It was coordinator when I was first
employed, but they changed the title about a month afterwards.
Q All right.
A All coordinators have now become directors.
Q You were the first Director of Personnel, is that
right? There was no one before you?
A To my knowledge, there was no one.
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Q All right. You do not have complete charge of
personnel in the Chattanooga school system, do you?
A Professional personnel, yes.
U What is the function of the Assistant Superintendent
for Staff and Personnel?
A It is ay understanding that he is directly in
charge of the entire division of staff personnel.
Q Oh, I see. So, then, you are not in charge of
personnel. You are simply a recruiter?
A Hot necessarily, I don't think.
Q Hell, what do you do in addition to recruiting?
A I recommend persons for employment. I —
Q (Interposing) Is that all?
A Ho, I communicate with principals on their employ
ment needs.
Q But, you do not actually have the total and final
responsibility?
James - Cross 672
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A Ho, no.
Q For the personnel department?
A No, I do not. You see, there are two divisions
in two departments in the division of staff personnel —
classified and professional.
Q You don't have the full and total responsibility
for professional personnel either, do you? In other words.
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you don't date rains what teachers shall be assigned to what
schools, do you, and how many teachers shall be assigned to
the schools?
A No.
Q And, you say there was no one before you were
employed doing exactly what you are doing?
A To ay knowledge, I don't know what was happening
before X went there.
Q Is it your primary function to try to recruit
black teachers?
A No, I recruit black and white.
Q You try to recruit all teachers, all right.
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
Q in the 13 months during which you have been
Director of — coordinator or director of personnel, have
any measures bean taken to integrate the faculty employed
prior to 1967?
MR. WITT: X believe that's beyond the subject of
the direct examination.
THE COURT: Well, he may ask his question. You,
of course, would not be permitted to cross examine about matters
that were not covered in direct, but he made direct examina
tion to those matters.
THE WITNESS: Would you repeat that question.
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Mr. Witt?
BY HK. WILLIAMS:
Q In th« 13 Months during which you havs hnsn
coordinator or diroctor of profsssional personnel, have any
Measures been taken to integrate the faculty employed prior to
1967?
A Yes.
Q What Measures?
A Well, we have attenpted to discuss with the
principals and let then know that they, of course, needed to
adhere to the Supreme Court's decision of desegregation
that they needed to cross racial lines a little s o n than what
has been done.
Q Any crossing of racial lines, though, in reference
to faculty employed prior to 1967 has been on a voluntary
basis?
A I don't know what happened prior to 1967. See,
Z was not on the scene. I was not in this position.
Q I don't think you understand the question.
A Maybe I didn't.
Q Any crossing of racial lines since 1967 in
reference to teachers who were already employed prior to 1967
has been on a purely voluntary basis, hasn't it?
A I don't follow your question.
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Q All right. Do you have any understanding of
the Meaning of the word "crossovers"?
A Definitely.
0 What does that mean?
A that M a n s that you cross over with teachers,
racial crossover.
0 Means the employment of a teacher in a formerly
white — a white teacher in a formerly black school or a
black teacher in a formerly white school?
A Right.
Q Have any assignments of crossover teachers, to
your knowledge, been made in the 13 months that you have been
coordinator or director of personnel of — in reference to
teachers who were employed prior to 1967 on any basis other
than a voluntary basis?
A I don't recall.
Q So far as you know, there have been none?
A I don't recall.
Q If there have been, you don't recall any, is
that it?
A I don't recall.
Q You don't recall what, now, what does that mean?
A I don't recall whether or not there have been
any crossovers.
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James - Cross 676
Q So then, so far as you know, you —
A (Interposing) I said as far as I know.
Q there have been none?
A As far as I know. I don’t recall whether there
has been any crossovers.
Q All right. Hell, is it a part of your function
to try to secure integrated personnel and secure the assignments
of integrated personnel?
A It is part of ay function to recruit black and
white teachers. I recruit on predominately black canpuses,
I recruit on predominately white campuses.
Q All right. Do you recruit mostly at formerly
black schools?
A Ho, I recruit at predominately white campuses.
Q But, in any event, Mr. James, so far as you know,
there have been no unvoluntary assignments of teachers prior
to 1967?
A I don't recall, Mr. Williams.
Q All right, sir. Do you have any different
approach when you recruit on black campuses than when you
recruit on white campuses?
A Mo, I don't.
0 All right.
A I am looking for good teachers.
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Jamas - Cross 677
0 You don't recognize any difference in the recruit-
ment of black teachers than in the recruitment of white
teachers, any difference in approach?
A Mo. I recognize that the black teachers are n o n
difficult to coerce.
Q Do you coerce teachers?
A Well, it becomes a competitive thing, you know,
when you are dealing with blacks from the standpoint of
salaries and what not, and we don't have as many.
Q Why do you say that black teachers are more
difficult?
A Everybody is looking for them and the better
student, black, is going into industry. The free land country
of the east and the midwest, they are grabbing them.
Q The better white teachers are also going into
industry and business, better white college students doing
that also?
A Well, not those that have followed the teacher
education curriculum. I wouldn't think so.
Q Well, the black students who have followed the
teacher education curriculum are not going into other fields,
are they, any more than white?
A Mo, but the top black students not following the
teacher education curriculum, they are going into other
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professions.
g pfii you have anything to do with recruitment
prior to the desegregation of scdxools?
A Ho, I did not.
q Well, do you know hoe it c a m about that the
school syston > u Able to eoploy bl.de toschws before th.
schools were desegregated?
A Ho, I don't.
q Didn't have any problem employing black teachers
for black schools, did they, did they. Hr. Jams?
A I don't think — I don't think so, I wouldn't
67S
think.
Q a s a natter of fact, Mr. Jams, isn't it true that
traditionally it has been easier to secure staff personnel
when the schools were segregated for black schools than for
white schools because of the wider choice of opportunities
offered the white college graduates, isn't that a fact?
^ you repeat that statement?
q Traditionally, wasn't it much easier to recruit
faculty for black schools under the segregated system than
for white schools because of the wider choices of occupational
opportunities offered to white college graduates?
A Well, I agree to some extent, yes.
O Yes. And, there is still considerable limitation
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James - Cross 679
an the choices of occupations applicable to black college
graduates as compared to whites, isn't there?
A That's difficult for me to answer, Mr. Williams.
I have been on both sides of the fence with business and
industry and education. I know what's happened with industry.
q Well, when you say industry, what are you talking
about? You talking about the manufacturing industry?
A Yes.
q Is it your statement that the choices of
opportunity are so wide in manufacturing industry as to limit
the number of blade graduates who are available for teaching
capacity?
A Mot necessarily.
q All right, sir. As a matter of fact, you have
no statistical data on that, have you, Mr. James?
A I did when I was with the manufacturing associa
tion.
q Bare you collected any statistical data at all
with regard to limitation on the number of black college
graduates who are available for the teaching profession?
A Yes, I have.
q Mlie re is that data?
A Those that would meet the types of requirements
that we are looking for.
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q Have tbs requirements been chanqtd since school
desegregation case about, Mr. Janes?
A Professional teacher requirements, I would think.
are the
0
A
Q
Then, they have not been changed?
As far as the State of Tennessee.
All right. Well, have they been changed insofar
as the Chattanooga school aysten is concerned?
A I would think so.
q Why?
A. Because of an attempt to upgrade.
q Why did the attenpt to upgrade have to ocne about
at the tine the schools were going to be desegregated?
A I don't know. Schools have been desegregated
in Chattanooga for two or three years supposedly, anyway.
q Well, is Howard and Riverside, are those schools
desegregated, in your opinion?
A Wo, no.
q Then, all the schools have not been desegregated,
have they?
A Mo, that's obvious.
q Then, I repeat, why do we all of a sudden have to
begin worrying about so much upgrading of teacher qualifica
tions at a tine when school desegregation is coning about?
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Ja m s - Cross 681
A The purpose is quality education.
q Thsn, is it your position that quality sduoation
is mads availabls only whan black children have to go to
school with whits children?
A No, school's for black students as wall as whits
children.
q i ass. Do you have any knowledge as to idiy
quality education, then, wasn't nads available to black
children when they hadn't desegregated the schools?
A Repeat that, please.
0 You have any idea, then, as to »diy this quality
education wasn't made available to black children when we
had segregated black schools?
A I don't know. I am aware of the fact that it was
not, but I don't know why.
q All right. Is it your idea that quality educa
tion has anything to do with the employment of black teachers?
A I think it's important that we have good teachers,
whether they are black or white. We don't want academicians.
We want good teachers.
q Mr. James, of the 800 teachers that you presently
have, how many of them are black, and the teacher applications,
I am sorry, that you presently have, how many of those are
►
black and how many are trfiite?
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A Z don't think w tuns — I don't have a breakdown.
Let m see if we do. If I have, I night havn — Z don't
believe Z do, though. Z think about 38 percent of our total
on, you nean applications?
0 Yes.
A That we have? Z would roughly say about 30, 30 or
35 percent of then.
Q Thirty-five percent?
A Or less than 30 percent, about 30 percent or less.
q About 30 percent? Well, would you say it's close
to 30 percent?
A Yes.
Q Of your applications for black teacher s?
A Right.
Q All right. Nov, how many of those black teacher
applications are ones which were submitted in response to
letter type A?
A Hr. williams, that would be rather difficult to
answer, because —
James - Cross 682
q (Interposing) Why were —
A (continuing) — sane of those — son* of those
applications were already on file when I began my recruiting
efforts in October of '70.
q Approximately how many of those of the 800 were
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Janes - Cross 683
already an file?
A Z wwil^ say s o n than half of thee.
Q All right.
A See, because the persons that I have recruited,
we have applications for, are just now coning in.
0 All right. Thsn, you had — you had about 400
applications on file when you took over?
A Had an abundant nunber.
q All right, were any of those — were any of those
on file of people who professionally were highly acceptable?
A No, and —
q (Interposing) Were any of those on file of
people who were acceptable?
acceptable?
A Sene were acceptable, yes.
q What percentage of those on file
A well, this is difficult for me to
q well, do you keep records on this, Mr. Janes?
A Yes, I do.
q you do operate your office in a professional
fashion, do you not?
A Yes.
q Do you not consider it important to keep record
of those applications that you consider acceptable and those
you consider noneocaptabla?
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Janas - Cross 684
A Taa, X do.
Q All right. Can y m furnish --
A (interposing) But, I want to say this to you,
that a vary — 11 psrcsntag® of this 800 applicants wars black
if this is what you ara specifically talking about, a vary,
vary snail percentage.
q You said approximately 30 percent, didn't you?
A Yeah.
q Yes.
A But, about 10 percent of then are persons that
1 recruited — that were recruited under the efforts of
which I coordinated the recruiting efforts.
q Mall, are you aware of the — of the research
of the release that was recently acconplished by Mr. Ernest
Griggs, the Commissioner for the State of Tennessee Employment
Security from research done by Dr. Eberling of Vanderbilt
who is handling research for the State in this area and is
finding that there was a large nuaber of teachers on the
unemployed list and that teachers headed the list of the
unemployed, you ware not aware of that?
A No.
Q YOU do not keep abreast of the literature in this
area, then, right ?
A As I said, we are only concerned about the
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professional certificated person, and you say — when you
M y teacher, you know you oould be talking about a Sunday
School teacher or anybody. We are concerned about professions.,
certificated teachers.
q It is ny understanding that this release, this
publication, related to public school teachers.
^ Pour-year degree? Professional certificated
people?
q Yes. Have you made any survey — can you tell the
Court, now, how sany of the 800 applications on file are
teachers who hold degrees, who hold college degrees, and who
are certificated by the State for teaching in their areas?
A
Q
A
Q
A
ninety-nine percent of then.
Ninety-nine percent of then?
Either professional or tenporary certification.
So — so, and how many?
Ito won't even process an application unless they
4-year degree people.
q Then, many of those teachers — teacher applica
tions on file relate to black teachers who live right here
in the City of Chattanooga, don't they, who are unemployed?
A Wot with professional certification.
q Sir?
A Not with professional certification.
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file of black teachers?
A With professional certification.
q With professional certification?
A Right.
q who live in the City of Chattanooga?
A To ay knowledge.
q Well, do you know or do you not know?
A That have consulted with ne, sir?
q Then, you concede the possibility that there nay
be acne of those applications?
A There could be. 1 said that have consulted with
ne •
Q h o w frequently do you review your application
file?
A Well, 95 percent of the interviewing I do, so
if they have been interviewed, they have been interviewed by
o You M Y you have no black teacher applications on
Q
A
Q
Do you actually employ the teachers or does Mister
(Interposing) I recommend for employment.
But, it's actually Mr. Heustess who employs then.
is that correct?
A Well, the Board employs.
q Well, what does Mr. James U. Heustess do?
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687
A He is the Assistant Superintendent.
0 Charge of personnel? Isn't he the one who actually
recommends to the Board?
A I recommend to him.
Q And then he recommends to the Board?
A To the Board.
Q And he can countermand your recommendation?
A Yes.
Q Yes. And, he is a white man. isn't he?
A Yes, very much so.
Q You are a black man?
A Right.
Q Yes. You have indicated that in the current
year you employed approximately 200 new teachers, 140 in
September and 60 as a result of attrition in the course of the
year?
A Uh-huh.
Q Based on your of course, you weren't here in
prior years; but based on your examination of the records,
is that about par for the course?
A I would think so.
Q So, that the Chattanooga school system can expect
to employ approximately 200 new teachers each year?
A Maybe a few more this year, I would think, because
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Jammu - Cross 688
or 200 is a little nore than the average?
A No, a few more this coning school year, 1 would
think, because of the number.
q Difference between 200 and 225?
A Sonsthing like that.
Q All right, sir. So that — can you furnish the
Court a breakdown of the number of the applications on file
by race which are acceptable in terns of the Chattanooga schoo..
system standards for teachers?
A You speaking of those we have on file at this time''
q Yes. You have already said you have 800 on file.
You said that 99 percent of those are acceptable insofar as thn
State is concerned. They are certificated, they have 4-year
college degrees, and so —
A (Interposing) 1 would think that in certain areas
we have approximately — well, overall, we would have about 30J
of those 800.
g All right. About 300 of those 800 are acceptable
insofar as the Chattanooga — the City of Chattanooga school
system standards?
A Right.
Q Por quality education —
A (Interposing) Right-
Q (Interposing) So that 200 was a few sore than 200
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Jamas - Cross 689
Q (Continuing) — are concerned?
A Right.
Q Mow, of that 300, approximately what percentage
would you say would be black teachers?
A About 75.
Q Then, you do — you apply a different standard
with regard to black teachers?
A MO.
Q Than you do white teachers?
A No.
a Can you account for the disparity in reference?
A Me have —
a (Interposing) Black and white teachers according
to the City of Chattanooga standards as compared to the State
standards?
A
teacher.
We have just not been able to recruit the black
Q All right. What, are the standards over and above
the State standards that you are applying in this subjective
quality education thing that you are talking about?
A The standards are the sane, but, Mr. Millions, we
go to a college campus to recruit a student. And, we encounter
recruiters, a number of the metropolitan communities that are
paying a beginning salary of nine-one.
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690
Q Mister —
make this comparison if you would, please, and try to get my
point over. May I?
A (Interposing) And eight-five. Well, I just vent to
q I am sure the Court would permit you to do so, but
right now we are talking about teacher applications.
A Well —
0 (Interposing) And —
A (Interposing) If you would permit me to do this,
then maybe I can get it over.
Q All right.
A And, in attempting to talk with the students and
they see that we are at a beginning salary of 6,600 and
primarily the black student, as I was, I guess most blacks
were economically deprived — and one thing that they are
going to look at is salary — money. They won't even cone in
and talk to me. They are going in and talk with the recruiter^
that's offering the most money, not taking under consideration
the cost of living in that community as compared to what it
will cost to live in Chattanooga.
And this is why I have been trying to get over
to you that it is difficult to recruit the black teacher.
Q Well, you have said that.
A In comparison, I will give you another example if
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you will permit ms, please. Tennessee State, we have visited
Tennessee State University on two occasions this year. We
talked with three students the first time. The second time
we talked with sir.
At Tennessee Tech, we had to send two recruiters.
In Middle Tennessee State, we had to sand two recruiters. At
the University of Tennessee, we had to send two recruiters.
At Fisk, we talked with some students. One was a boy that I
had formerly coached that was in health and phys ed, and we
don't need any health and phys ed majors. And the other was
a foreigner majoring in chemistry — speaking an unknown tongui
I mean, this is the comparison I have been trying
to make all day long with the types of students that — we
go to Austin-Peay, and I talk with 15 students. This is why
it's so difficult for us to recruit the black student. I go
to Atlanta University, they have got three colleges, and X hav
a daughter in one. And, I spend the entire afternoon talking
with her because nobody else will come over for the interview.
Now, this is one of the reasons why we have
difficulty recruiting the black student. X don’t know what
the problems are and they know far «head in advance that we
are to cone.
Q All right. Mr. Janes, the question X asked, now,
to relate to recruiting, please listen to the question.
Janas - Cross 691
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All right, sir.
You have stated that you have 800 applications
Crocs 692
on file and you believe that approximately 240 of those applies
tiona are 30 percent black?
A Yes.
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0 How, then, I an asking about the standards that
you are applying. You have said that only approximately 75 of
those 240 applications are acceptable according to the City of
Chattanooga standards?
A Right.
Q Although you concede that they are all certified
by the State?
A Either temporary professional, see, 70 of the 75
could be temporary certification, and we are requiring
professional certification for the whites, so ve are going to
require the same for the blacks.
Q Are we talking — are we talking about facts or
are we talking about guesses?
A We are talking about facts.
Q Wliat are the qualifications that the City of
Chattanooga applies that are not applied by the State?
A Mr. Williams, 1 just don't know what to say to
try to get this point over to you.
Q Well, is the point that some of these 240 teachers
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have professional certificates and s
A
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A
Q
have?
A
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A
James - Cross 693
do not?
Tee.
Is that what you are saying?
A great percentage of them don't have, that's —
(Interposing) What kind of certificates do they
They have temporary.
All right. Explain what a temporary —
(Interposing) A temporary certificate is — a
temporary is a certificate granted to any college graduate
who has completed four years of college that will have an
equivalent of six hours of accumulated work in education and
it can be in psychology or anything. In other vords, you can
take pro-mod and get a temporary certificate with no preparation
for teacher education or no preparation for teaching and this
certificate will permit you to teach two years.
Q All right. And, will you not have been required
to have practice teaching in order to have —
A (Interposing) No, sir.
Q A temporary certificate? No practice teaching?
A None whatsoever. „
Q All right. Now, have you made — can you tell the
Court how many of those 300 teachers have temporary certificates?
A It's difficult for me to say, but I would think —
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A Hall, I don't really know. I tall you what, all
of this school year, tha oonmmnication that wa nailed to the
placement directors back in August requesting that wa visit
their campus for purposes of recruiting, we asked then told
then that we only wanted to talk with students who were in
th*» teacher education program, and who Diet, of course, the
Tennessee professional teachers certification requirements.
And, of course, we listed them.
q Mr. James, can you make a review of your teacher
quick review of the teacher application files and furnish to
this Court a listing of the actual number of black and white
teacher applications on file and the actual number of blade
and whita teachers who meet the minimum standards prescribed
by the City of Chattanooga school system? Can you and will
you do that?
A Yeah, when you aey minimum standards?
q Yes, sir. I mean the minimum standards. Is it
your statement that the professional teaching certificate —
A (Interposing) Those are our minimum standards.
Mow, we only use professional, certificated people when we
can't find anyone else in dire cases of emergency only.
q You do have some people teaching now —
A (Interposing) We do.
0 (Interposing) Wall, I don't want you to think.
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J. « - Cross 695
q (Continuing) — with temporary csrtifiostss?
A Ms do hava.
q But, would you likewise furnish the Court —
A (Interposing) Yes.
q (Continuing) — a statement of the nuab«r of
teachers now, both blade and white by race, who are teaching
on temporary certificates in violation of your professional
mlniwum standards?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
q All right, sir. Appreciate that.
Now, in a school system like Chattanooga's where
the racial of pupils is approximately 49 to 51 percent;
but 49 percent black and 51 percent white, but the teacher
ratio is only 40 percent black to 60 percent white, would
you agree that there is some — that there is soma disparity
in terms of the racial identity?
A Yes.
q There are? Are you doing anything other than just
other than just beerying the difficulty in recruiting black
teachers to eliminate this disparity?
A Well, I don't follow your term of decrying, but
nevertheless —
Q (Interposing) Maybe that's an interpretation.
I am sorry, Mr. James.
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A I am working very hard, trying to got black
teachers. I don't know of any other way to got then if you
don't recruit.
Q Well, has there been any special publicity on the
black campuses about the effect that this is having on school
desegregation7 In other words, is there any special publicity
given to this in advance to your coning to black campuses to
recruit?
A Yes.
Q Well —
A (Interposing) Quality personnel reference, I just
keynoted a career conference at Knoxville College about two
weeks ago, and this was the theme of one of ay talks.
Q Well —
A (Interposing) In regard to desegregation and
the problems that we are faced with.
Q Are you beginning to see some improvement?
A Just two weeks. I have not — I am just now
recuperating from that trip.
Q Are you familiar with the racial balance of
teachers in each school in the system?
A Yes.
Q Are you aware that in all but two out of 47
instances, this balance is heavily weighted toward the
Ji m s - Cross 696
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James - Cross 697
predominant racs of pupils in that school?
A Tas.
Q I taka it you would agree, would you not, that
that retains an aspect of racial segregation?
A z agree.
Q And, will you also not agree that especially in
the high schools where you have freedon of choice that that
racial identification of the school tends to deter, to some
axtent, children — black children going to formerly white
schools and white children going to formerly black schools?
A I think that this has some effect.
Q Yes.
A I think it all still stems from the fact that we
have got to get quality — good teachers to — to overcome
this, you know, and not get that temporary teacher in there.
Q But, apart from the quality of the teacher, though
if you had a school, say, like Chattanooga High School that
was a formerly white school and it had a faculty — it had a
faculty that was 90 percent white, and a black school like
Howard that was formerly a black school and it had a faculty
that was 90 percent black, it will be pretty clear to the
students and their parents that one school was sort of a still
black school and the other school was sort of a white school,
wouldn't it?
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A Yes.
Q And, in our present condition of reciel attitudes
and fears with which I think you and I are s o n familiar *-̂ »n
some other — than perhaps what — well, with which X am sure
you are familiar. Hr. James, as you have indicated that would
have some deterrent effect in a freedom of choice situation,
wouldn't it?
A I agree.
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0 Yes, sir. Hoar, with reference to the national
teacher examination, if its results are not used as a factor
in maploying or retaining a teacher, why is it administered?
A X don't really know, Mr. Williams.
Q What use is made —
A (Interposing) I would suggest that you ask that
question to Mr. Heustess when he takes the stand. They were
administering it when I came to the scene, and they are
continuing to do so and all that I have heard is that eventual
it's going to become a requirement as it is at a number of
other school systems.
Q Do you know why all of a sudden the teacher
examinations have become a requirement in — suddenly in
context of school desegregation?
A Don't know, really. X have my reasons to believe
why, but I don't really know.
Y
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James - Cross 699
Q Wall, why, based on your experience with tho
school systssi you say you have your baliaf, what is your
belief?
A Wall, I don't have to answer that.
q No, sir, I guess I an not going to force you to
answer that, Mr. Janes.
What — do you know what use is made of the result i
of these examinations?
A We presently keep then in their records on file.
q All right.
A To my knowledge.
q What is the rate of attrition of black teacher
as coopered to white teachers, since you have been director?
A We don't have as many blacks leaving as whites.
0 All right. Do you have — have you collected any
statistics on that, any clerical data on that?
A Yes, we have. I an not familiar with it, but I
an sure that we have not had this year the number of black
teachers resigning. Possibly we might have a few nore
retirements in blacks this year than we have. This is because
of compulsory retirement age, but —
q (Interposing) well, in terns of numbers and
the actual percentage of separations, you would say, then,
that the separation rate of black teachers is lees — has beer
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loss than that of whites since you have been —
A (Interposing) Yes.
0 And that should be an alleviating factor, should it
not, in t e n s of inproving the distribution of black teachers,
that is the total — the word of distribution is bad ~~
inproving the ratio of black teachers to white teachers in the
systen assuming that you can meet your narks, so to speak, in
the recruitment effort?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
Q Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q All right. Do you know whether or not the number
of black teachers whose applications are on file and whoa you
are going to furnish us, whose applications are satisfactory?
Do you know whether or not they are fully utilised in the
employment practices in the Chattanooga school system? InI
other words, are all of them employed, whether you expect to
employ all of then, recommend all of them for employment?
A Hell, we would like to.
Q Z see.
A And, of course, this is dependant upon a lot of
things, For one, of course, is the decision of the guidelines
that we get from the decision of the Court here and a number
of other things as to the number of people that we will be
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able to «aploy.
Q All right.
A Which direction we go.
Q So that the school system, then, has not — has
not on its own established any guidelines looking toward an
equitable ratio of employment of black to white teachers, is
that correct?
A Well, we have soma things in mind, but we just
have not implemented them.
Q All right.
A As yet.
q The system is more or less waiting on the Court
to provide the direction in that regard?
A Yes.
q is that right? Do you know why? Do you know why
the system — school system is placing — the Board of Educa-
is placing the burden on the District Court here to
direct it to implesmnt the desegregation of staff?
A Well, X would assume it's prisuurily because of
what has happened in various other locales.
q You mean —
A (interposing) What has happened in other sections
of the country.
q You believe they are following the recalcitrant
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of school boards across the South?
A 7m , this is my assumption.
MR. WILLIAMS: Tour honor will axcusa me just a
moment. Thank you.
TOE COURT: Mr. James, do I understand that the
Chattanooga School possibly have soma plans to make changes in
connection with professional personnel, but you are waiting
for the Court to instruct them what to do or —
THE WITNESS: (Interposing) Well, we can't — can'
move on personnel. We don't plan to until such time as we
are given sane direction. That'a ay understanding.
THE COURT: All right.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITT:
Q Mr. Jamas, are you aware of the policy that the
School Board decided approximately four years ago to employ
across race lines, employ new people?
A Yes.
0 Do you know whether or not — do you have any
general information whether or not that policy that — they
attempted to carry out that policy?
A Yes.
Q Let me — are you familiar with the ratio of
black to white in the City of Chattanooga; not the school
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system but in the population in the City o£ Chattanooga?
A Mo, Z am not too familiar with that.
q jn your recruiting efforts, you have mentioned
compensation or comparative salaries as the principal detrimentj
to recruiting. What are the other reasons, the chief reasons
why you have difficulty in recruiting?
A Because of, as I mentioned, the competition that
we are getting fr<» industry and other professions — business,]
and as — well, federal programs and any number of other new
avenues that have opened recently to blacks for employment.
q Hell, what about — what are the detriments to
the whites oaming to Chattanooga?
A they are people who have — are really prepared,
are dedicated to the profession and, of course, in letter of
the fact, they too can go into these particular professions.
They are persons who have dedicated themselves to the teaching
profession, and this is what they plan end always wanted to do.
q In your interview process, do you ask whether or
not the applicant is willing to teach in a school that is
predominately of a race other then that of his or her race?
A Yes, we always ask them that.
q If they say they — if their answer is no, do you
consider them for employment?
w« do not.
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MR. MZTTt I have no further questions.
MR. WILLIAMS: Hay it please the Court, I have.
RKCBOSS EXAHIMATIOB
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q Two questions that I omitted, I think, what are —
you indicated the starting salary is $6,000 in Chattanooga.
What is the maximum salary? tfeat is the salary schedule?
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Can you state that just briefly?
A Yes, the beginning salary for the bachelor's
degree for the 1970-71 school year was 6,600 and the
was $9,240, and that was the top-out at 14 years of experience.
For the master's degree, beginning salary was
$7,392 and the marimiie top-out salary for 10 years of
15 experience was $10,164.
All right. And, how about the doctor's degree?
A I don't have that available.
0 What is the annual increment, I'm sorry.
A One hundred dollars up to 14 years. Of course,
our salary is based on an index, set up on an index.
Q All right. One more question: You omitted the -
rather, you indicated that the athletic leagues were desegre
gated in 1967. Are they school-operated leagues or do they
represent private athletics that operate in connection with
public schools?
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A M w n you say school-operated, thay ara sanctioned
by tha TSSAA, Tu m s i m Sacondary School Athletic Association.
Q How, that is a private organisation, isn't it,
which was chartered and operates as a business?
A Right.
Q The league of public schools athletics, that's
correct?
A lih-huh.
Q And the HIL is an agency of that league, is that
right, that association, is that right?
A Yeah. I don't know whether it's an agency, but
it is sanctioned by and they are — abide by the rules of the
TSSAA and all schools are nasfeers of the TSSAA.
Q Mow, did yon know that the TSSAA is a segregated
organisation?
A I did not, because I was president of the THSAA
at the tine of Merger.
0 Yes. And at that tine, now, the THSAA was the
black —
A (Interposing) Right.
Q (Continuing) — counterpart of the TSSAA?
A Right.
Q The TSSAA, for the record, is the Xeneessee
Secondary School Athletic Association?
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A That's right.
Q Tha T-f-AA is the — was tha Tennessee High School
Athlatic Association, which was tha black organisation?
A Right.
Q Black counterpart?
A Right.
Q And the white organisation exercised very authori
tarian and exclusive control over all white public schools'
athletics in Tennessee, didn't it?
A Definitely.
Q Through its director there, A. U. Bridges?
A Right.
Q And it o^ratas with the board of control which
is ostensibly elected by school pri cipals bat which is also
subject to control of Nr. Bridges, isn't it. Mister —
A (Interposing) Mall, I haven't been in athletics
for three years, but it was operated like that when I was in
athletics.
Q And, do you know that when the black Tennessee
High School Athletic Association had the so-called Merger
that not one of its wmbers of its board of control was taken
onto —
A (Interposing) This is true, but t think — this
is true, Mr. Millions. This is off the record, but I think —
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Janas - Recross 707
Q (Interposing) This is on the record.
A I think — I think this was out of Mistake. I
think this was our mistake.
Q You naan the blacks?
A This was the black mistake and this was the mistake
of the black principals. You see, I, as a ooach and athletic
director, was president of the THSAA. we had no black princi
pal who would assume the presidency of the THSAA and the black
principals would not give me the support that I needed as
administrative head. So, they wouldn’t give ne support of
the THSAA so that created some problems.
And, we just went in and didn’t ask for any type
of regulations to get anybody on the board of control as ATUA,
the old Tennessee State Education Association, did. This was
the problem that that created.
q But, as a matter of fact, though, the fact remains
that the TSSAA, the organization which in effect regulates
and oontrols this HIL has no blacks anywhere in a supervisory
or controlling capacity, does it?
A True, true.
0 It is operated by a board of control consisting
of high school principals across the state and they are all
^lite, aren’t they, sir?
A All white.
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708
Q Yes, sir.
A Blacks axs winning all the events. They can't
taka that away from ns.
Q That's exactly right. They win the state champion
ships.
A For the record, I won the football championship
five years in a row. Did you hear that, Mr. Williams?
Q Tea, I heard that. I am proud of it.
A Thank yon.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITT;
Q Mr. James, just a few questions to clarify some
points Mr. Williams made of the five high schools that are
under the control of the Chattanooga school system in football.
Do they all play each other?
A They all play each other.
Q In baseball, do they all play each other, if tney
have a team?
A Yes, they all play each other.
0 In basketball, do they all play each other?
A Yes, they do. They all play each other.
MR. WITT: Thank you, Bir.
THE COURT: Anything further?
MR. WILLIAMS: Tea, sir, one additional question.
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Janes - Recross 709
RECROSS KXAHIHATIQH
BY MR. WILLIAMSt
Q When Howard play* Chattanooga High, it’s blacks
against whites, isn't it?
A No, sir, Chattanooga High School, 1 believe, has
about seven or eight black football players, and they three
starters on their basketball teas, and the captain of the
basketball tea* was a black boy who just recently had an
operation on his knee.
And, I understand at this point the community
has raised something like $2,500 for him.
Q All right, sir. But, when Howard played Brainerd,
vaj it Macks against whites?
A They have one or two — well, I know they have
two blacks at Brainerd on the football team.
Q I see, but insofar as the student bodies are
concerned, it's blacks against whites, isn't it, when either
Howard or Riverside plays either of those two white high
schools?
A In spirit, maybe.
Q Yes.
A But not in reality.
Q would you say — would you say that that — well,
it's not in r> ality because the blacks — the blacks, in
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Recross 710
addition to winning as black ball teems in the black schools,
also predoednate on the white tea— in the white schools,
that's what you are saying, isn't it?
A Yeah.
0 hut, insofar as — insofar as the school spirit
is concerned, it's black school against white school?
A Right.
0 Quite similar to the Cameron situation in Nashville;
A Yeah.
Q
A
Q
Two years ago?
Yeah, Hillsboro.
Would you say that that is good or bad in t
of human relations of —
A (Interposing) It's bad. It's not very good.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, thank you.
M E COURT: Anything further? All right, you — y
step down.
(Witness excused.)
THE COURT: Let's take a 10-minute recess.
(Thereupon, a recess was taken.)
CLIFFORD LEE HENDRIX, jR<̂
called as a witness at the instance of the defendant, being
fciret duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
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Hendrix - Direct
BY HR. WITT:
Mould you please state your full nmea?
Clifford Lee Hendrix, Jr. — Clifford.
Hr. Hendrix, what is your present position?
Principal at Howard School.
How long have you been in that position?
Since the last — since March the 17th of 1970.
Mould you state briefly your educational background*
Yes. Bachelor and Master's degree at Tennessee
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A4I State University; 30 hours beyond the Master's in educa
tion administration supervision at the University of Tennessee
at Knoxville.
Q Mould you explain to the Court in your own words
how you as a principal at Howard work with the teachers at
Howard, attempting to neet the educational needs of its student)i
in general?
A As principal of Howard School, I have the
responsibility to work directly with the associate principals
of each division and the assistant principal in charge of
curriculum instruction and vocational coordinator to coordinate
and organise an instructional program for the various divisions,
These adainiti crative positions work directly with
teeohers to facilitate the instructional program. Our organ!-
zation is usually a situation where the curriculum person and
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Hendrix - Direct 712
the associate principal, along with myself, work directly with
the departmental chairmen in the various subject areas to
suggest improvements and changes in the curriculum and go
about organizing and doing just this.
Q All right. Have any courses been terminated at
Howard during your 10 years as principal?
Courses are terminated from time to time, are they
A NO.
Q Cour
not?
A Yea.
Q And 1
A Mali
about?
electives where students select these courses, if at a given
year we don't have enough students who select a particular
course, that will eliminate a course. Or, if within a depart*
ment it is decided by the teachers that the course no longer
is useful to children, they no longer express an interest in
that subject and it is eliminated.
Q Then, ia it — would it be fair to say that the
courses that are currently offered at Howard are being
offered because the demand continues for those courses?
A Yes.
Q Now, during this last year, have there been any
plans or programs to change the course of instruction in any
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Hendrix - Direct 713
way at Uoward?
A Tea, there have been two major emphases of change
of programs: One, language arts, the English program, and
the other la an orientation program for sophomore students.
Q All right. Who Is — how did this come about?
A The language arts program?
0 Yes.
A Mall, I guess It started about a couple of years
ago In continuation of human relations workshops that we were
hawing In the Chattanooga public school system that related
to desegregation.
We were asked to sit with our faculties and
students and discuss things that we feel had a bearing on
human relations. The area of curriculum Instruction did come
up and la identifying which students — special needs In
curriculum, it was decided that of the many courses that
needs to be re-examined, English sort of stood at the fore
front .
So, in our discussion with the language arts
teachers and a few students and administration, we sat down
to try to identify some of the problems that we felt had
been existing in the English course, and we sought to try to
make some recommendations of how we might change, it. So, this
is basically how it got started.
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Hendrix - Direct 714
Q Wee this particular program assigned to any one
person under your responsibility?
A Sight. This was directly assigned to the
assistant principal in charge of curriculum instruction.
Q And his name?
A Mr. Franklin McCallie.
Q Z hand you a paakert labeled -Presented.*
Mould you describe — would you identify this, please?
A Okay. The folder itself is a — what we call
a portfolio. Zt substitutes for a student handbook. Shat
we try to do here, we never have been able to afford a hand-
book as such, but this seems to serve pretty much the s a m
purpose in that these are given to sophcsMre students at the
beginning of the year.
Znside are the school policies that are explained
very briefly and some of the things that they would need to
know about as they make their adjustments into high school.
You want me to explain all of it?
0 Mould you suite thie an exhibit to your testimony,
Mo. 61?
THE COURTt Ho. 61.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit Mo.
61 for identification. Witness Mr.
Hendrix, and reoeived in evidence.)
BY MR. WZTT:
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Hendrix - Direct 715
0 The pamphlet haa several items?
A Uh-huh.
Q Inside? Would you identify each one?
A Okay. One is a course offering sheet for tenth
grade students. This mould be primarily the concern of ninth
grade students in the spring mho are planning to attend
Howard High School. The cards — course offering cards which
gives them an opportunity to select from the oourse offering
sheets, specific subjects that they would like to take.
There is another sheet here which describes the
course offerings for eleventh and twelfth grade students.
These are the students who are already presently enrolled.
There is a course offering description of language arts
program that goes into detail to describe what it's all about
for the benefit of the ninth grads teachers and students.
And, of course, the memorandum here just describes what all
is enclosed.
0 Is this material used in guidance counseling
at the ninth grade level?
A That's right.
0 Did you indicate that there was an enrollment
ticket?
A I did.
Q Do you consider — does your school have any
H ' « H A S H S M U N O f f 14' IA L C O I I N 1 t U M O N I t N
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Hendrix - Direct 716
autonomy with regard to the curriculum design and content?
A Yes, I think it has a great deal of autonomy.
MR. WITT: Your witness, Mr. Williams.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
g Mr. Hendrix, hew long have you been employed in
the Chattanooga school system?
A Since the fall of 1955.
g All rin.it. You began as a teacher, I take it?
A That's right, nine years as a teacher.
q in Howard School?
A At Howard School and about almost six years as
assistant principal in the senior high division and then
principal.
g All right. And, do you know of any formerly wnite
school in the City of Chattanooga system that has a black
principal.
A Glenvood Elementary, formerly a white school, has
a black principal now.
g What is its principal —
A (Interposing) Mostly black now.
q (Continuing) — composition? It's one of the
changeovers?
A Yeah.
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Hendrix - Cross 717
0 You know of any formerly white school system,
formerly white school in the system which still has a
predominately white student body which has a black principal?
A Ho, 1 don't know of any.
Q All right. Mr. Ilendrix, as a school principal
and administrator in the Chattanooga school system, state
whether or not in your opinion the system is still substantiall
segregated?
A I think it is still segregated.
Q To your knowledge, has it ever been substantially
integrated?
A To my knowledge, it has not been.
Q uo you have programs so unique that a student from
some other part of the city will typically come to Howard for
that special program?
A That it be so unique that he would come?
0 Yes, for that special program?
A It’s not unique to that extent.
Q Then, as a principal of one 0* loux high
schools in question, would you say that freedom of cnoice
is based on the principal of each high school having such a
differentiated program that the needs of the students couldn't
be met as well or better by zoning?
A I think the needs could be met as well by zoning.
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Hendrix - Cross
q And would there be sene advantages of soning in
terns of the integration of this school system?
A I think there would be.
q What would be those advantages?
A Well, in cases of schools like Howard and
Riverside, then this would be a way of integrating these
schools with soning.
q d o you know of any harm or damage that would
come — harm, damage, or disadvantage that would come to the
school program by virtue of soning?
A To Howard School progran, too —
g (Interposing) Yes.
A Mo.
MR. WILLIAMS; That’s all.
MR. WITT: H o further questions.
MR. WILLIAMS: One other thing --
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
q Mr. Hendrix, have you had any experience in
I withdraw that.
Mr. Hendrix, would you agree that the school
faculties in the £^attanooga school system are now tailored
in virtue of school teacher assignment in such a fashion that
formerly black schools or schools that have predominately
black student bodies have predominately black faculties; and
71«
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Hendrix - Cross 719
formerly white schools, on the other hand, or schools that
have predominately white student bodies have predominately
white faculties?
A That's true.
Q And, state whether or not in your opinion that
retains an aspect of racial segregation in the schools?
A It does.
Q State whether or not in your opinion this tends
to cause the schools respectively to be identifiable by race?
A Very definitely.
Q Do the children and parents look upon a school
that has an all, predominately black faculty as a black
school?
A Yes.
Q And do they look upon a school that is an all,
predominately white faculty as a white school?
A They do.
Q Would it be possible to remove this racial
identifiability by assignment of teachers on an equal basis
according to race?
A I think that would help.
Q And, would it be possible to help remove — to
help remove the racial segregation in the school* of the
national school system across the board by redrawing the
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Hendrix - Cross 720
zoning lines and assigning children in a more equitable,
racial distribution in the schools?
A 1 think that would help.
G Is that administratively possible, in your
opinion?
A I think it is.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes. Thank you. Hr. Hendrix.
No further questions.
(Witness excused.)
FRANKLIN SCANLON McCALLIE,
called as a witness at the instance of the defendant, being
first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows;
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITT i
Q Would you please state your full name?
A Franklin Scanlon McCallie.
Q Where are you presently employed. Mister —
A (Interposing) Howard School.
Q What is your position at that school?
A I am the assistant principal for curriculum
development.
Q you please give your educational background?
A I was raised in private schools here in Cliatta-
nooga, went to finish my BS in education at Talson State
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McCallie - Direct 721
College. I have a master's in art of teaching English at
Harvard and have taken 39 hours of courses at the University
of Tennessee at Knoxville in educational administration
supervision beyond the master's.
Q When did you first become employed by the
Chattanooga school system?
A In the fall of 1968.
q What was your first assignment?
A I was an English teacher, language arts teacher,
at Howard School in the high school division.
q What was your next assignment?
A I spent two years as an English teacher and this
is the first year of my being in this position. It's a new
position to the school, as a matter of fact, as assistant
principal.
q Mr. McCallie, you heard Mr. Hendrix refer to the
language arts program that was under consideration. Would
you please describe how this program originated and your
part in it?
A it's a — it's fairly complex, but it is, succinctly
I think, is possible.
Following these conferences with students and
teachers, we felt that the English program was not meeting the
needs of our students from a couple of standpoints. Vie feel
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T t H
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McCallie - Direct 722
that in a language arts program, people should learn to
express themselves, to speak right, listen; and we felt like
that in many cases the individual needs of a student being
able to read better, to be able to write better, weren't
being met in the large anthology courses or language arts
courses which was SANRA.
q What?
A SANRA course, in other words, short story, novel.
During the year the student studies short stories, novels,
poetry, just a piece of all these. In the eleventh grade,
he was studying American literature. In the twelfth grade,
English lit.
One of the things we found out that happened
was that in'American literature, for instance, the teacher who
was strong in poetry taught a lot of poetry. The teacher
strong in novels taught a lot of novels. The student went
in getting a course — into a course that was labeled American
literature and he would get American literature and he would
get a lot of reading and he'd get writing. He might get some
grammar, depending on how much that teacher happened to teach;
but the individual needs of the student we felt weren't being
met by this anthology course and teachers were frustrated.
This, by the way, was not the first school I have
taught in, and I was an English teacher up in Baltimore. I
W, . H A N U S M I T H O f F I f l A l C O U N T H t P u R l t N
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
McCallie - Direct 723
found that the English teachers there felt exactly the sane
way. It happened to be a predominately white school and we
felt exactly the sane way about this. At the saws tine, we
found in the English journal a description of our sane program
at the sane tine we'd been talking about this.
We found a school in Trenton, Michigan, that had
gotten a $50,000 grant to study this, and they'd cone up with
sonethir;g that they called a non-grade level phase selective
system, which we talked about and discussed and decided that
with sone modifications it would meet our situation.
So, what we — what we did then was to base our
program on that and to break our courses down into semester
courses rather than year courses.
Q Mr. McCallie, let me interrupt you just a minute.
You are using the term "we.* Would you Blind describing who
you mean by —
A (Interposing) I mean the — Mr. Hendrix was
involved as principal. It was my duty to be in this committee
and the English teachers and all of the English teachers were
involved in this process and the talking about this process
and making up which courses. We decided therefore to break
down into semester courses and label the courses by a specific
name as we could under the language arts program.
Ti.arefore, we have finally — and we have, of
R K H A R O S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
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McCallie - Direct 724
course, added tone courses and — but, in our course offerings
for this next year we have got a projection of 29 semester
courses; things such as introductory composition, which tells
the student that this — he will be instructed in composition
in this course. At the same time we do that, we say they
would be phased, which means they would have a phase level
number, one through five, and the phase levels were explained
to the students that this is what type the course will be.
We didn't phase students. We didn't say you are a phase one
or you are a phase five. We said the course is a phase one
and then we said that they would be non-grade level; that is,
the 40 juniors and seniors could be together because we found
that, as we looked at the curriculum, no other courses are —
do you have just sophomores, no other courses do you have just
seniors.
We feel that they could take language arts courts
together. The students need to learn how to read — on any
level, need to learn how to read. So, in our planning, our
English department now takes several days during the semester
in which they become real guidance counselors — and we think
this is good — in which they talk with their students about
the coning semester. They counsel with their students about
what each student feels his or her weakness is, the need that
they have, and the student finda out for, not only the course
N . H A N D S M I T H O M I L I A L C O U R T R f P O R T I H
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McCallie - Direct 725
that he wants, he or she wants, but also the level.
For instance, a student feels a little weak in
composition. They may feel they want to take an introductory
composition course and maybe they want to take an intermediate
composition course, which is phase level four. Maybe they
want to go ahead to an advanced level course, phase level
five, we have had it in effect this year, and we are going
to try it again based on our experience .is year. We are
going to try ayain this next year and go ahead with this. Wa
don't have all 29 courses. We have 29 courses U s ted here,
but we don't have all 29 courses each semester. We probably
won't have all 29 courses each year, but as students elect
to take these courses, we offer this course.
The teacher, also, I should mention, chooses which
course they would feel best with. Therefore, ws get the
strength of this teacher as much as is possible in that
course, i :■ i k it's a very strong program.
q do you have some material that explains what you
mean by the various phases, the five phases?
A Yes, sir, that is in my hand here.
Q would you make that an exhibit to your testimonyf
please, 62, I believe?
THE COURT: Sixty-two.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to a b o v e was marked Exhibit No.
62 for identification. Witness Mr.
m. h*ru m o C s U 4eĉ u‘end0received in evidence.)
U N I T I O S T A T F S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
McCallle - Direct
j^ s v i,
MR. WILLIAMS: I think it's cumulative, if Your
Honor please. I think a copy of this is already in the record
aa part of Exhibit — part of Exhibit Si.
THE COURT: Well —
MR. WITT: (interposing) Is it?
THE COURT: You nay file it.
BY MR. WITT:
Q Mr. McCallie, would you explain the purpose of
these phases on this material that —
A (interposing) We feel when we speak of a student's
individual needs, some students have progressed further in
their educational experience than others, a student who
writes very well, who is able to express himself on paper very
well grammatically and so on, and who has good ideas, maybe
he needs the advance composition course which would mean that
he would elect to choose phase level five.
If a student has a great deal of difficulty in
reading and he speaks poorly, he has a hard time constructing
sentences, we don't think that the level f^ve is for him.
So, he probably — and we would encourage him to choose a
level one. As that student progresses, we don't track him.
He can choose to elect out of that phase level the next
726
semester or the next year and if we do what we are supposed
to do, that is to teach the child and to help hi* learn in
the stiuation, then In fact we hope he will progress. That's tlie
idea of education — that he willy Ly the time he arrives at
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HcCallie - Direct 727
his sonlor year, be taking four and five level courses.
That's not true for every child, but they do have
we hope they will progress in this manner.
Q I notice on the second page of this exhibit that
journalism one is listed with five phase levels?
A We have a couple courses that — in drama one,
also, we feel there are experiences that — that any student
can participate in and gain from to a great extent. Drama is
one. Some of our students who are very weak in reading, who
almost — who have a hard time reading or who are very weak
in writing can in fact, with help, read a play and act it out
fairly well.
We don't feel, therefore, that drama one -- and
also we feel that an introductory course in drama e>plains
the basic ingredients of drama. Therefore, e student who is
in s very advanced stage of, for instance, the language arts
curriculum, he still needs the technique of drams one. we
put both — both the slow learner and the more rapid learner
together in these courses and feel it helps both, and we —
both students get to show their ability in this.
We feel the same thing about journalism. How,
we didn't have courses in journalism tills year.
Drama is a course — example of what can happen.
We had a drama one course and enough students elected to have
H i r n A R O S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
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McCallie - Direct 728
to 90 ahead in drama so we offered drama two.
Does this M a n that when a student completes drama
it drama three, four, and five are still available to
him?
A
Q
program?
A
Q
A
We haven't decided 00 that as of yet.
Is it correct, this is in a sense, an experimental
Yes, sir.
Is it being constantly evaluated?
Yes, sir, by the teachers and by me and by Mr.
HenuriX.
Q
A
Q
You believe this program is important?
Yes, sir.
There is an expression in the teaching field
that you teach c iU’r-m they are. What does that mean
to you?
MR. WILLIAMS: Teach them what?
MR. WITT: Where they are.
THE WITNESS: I feel it means we are relevant
with the curriculum. We can*t start way above a child's head
in any part of educational development. We can't start with
Shakespeare with a young man who needs a more basic book.
That's not to say, though, that we don't shoot a little bit
above his head to help him to achieve educational progress.
R . C M A R O S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R t P O H U H
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McCallie - Direct 729
BY MR. WITT:
Q Then, do you spend a substantial amount of time
attempting to determine where children are in their ability?
A I — I think probably that no *c':ool spends enough
time at this. I think we are in a massive educational system
where we have got massive amounts of students who all of a
I
sudden we are confronted with classes, and we begin to teach.
This is one thing that we have done, though, to
try to be specific and say, "Students, we are going to talk
to you and find out where you are. We are going to counsel
with you.“
And, we have given our English teachers time.
We designate so and so number of periods to talk with your
students on this, wo are trying this in this program, yes, sir.
Q is there any compulsion associated with this
program with regard to the student?
A He has to be enrolled in the program material
because it's language arts. Ue must have the four units of
language arts from the ninth grade to the twelfth grade, and
this is from tenth to twelfth. As far as any other compulsion,
I think the English teacher would — would try to gSffhade,
if a student was having real trouble in basic courses and all
<ot a tiKiden he elected to take a five level coarse, think
he'd try to persuade the student not to take the five level
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
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McCallie - Direct 730
but we have allowed students in levels that we didn't feel
probably they could handle but they wanted to try and that
was, we felt, was their option.
MR. WITT: Your witness, Mr. Williams.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
q Mr. McCallie, in your opinion, are students at
Howard receiving education equal to those at Brainerd or
Chattanooga?
MR. WITT: Your Honor please. I object to that.
I don't beliove that any groundwork has been laid for that —
answering that question, at all.
MR. WILLIAMS: If Your Honor please, he has asked
him about the curriculum at Howard.
THE COURT: He may state his knowledge of the
matter.
THE WITNESS: Mr. Williams, it's it would be
an involved — it's an involved answer. I do know that our
curriculum is attempting to meet the needs of our students
and to encourage educational progress. I think when, as X,
as a curriculum person, the minute that question is asked, I
must admit I come to the fact of a segregated school. This
is — ''***
BY MR. WILLIivMS:
McCallie - Cross 731
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Q (Interposing) You cons to a —
A osing) I come to the fact of a segregated
school.
q To the fact of a segregated school?
A Yes. I can't, as a curriculum person, I have had
trouble this year in not dichotomising — or, excuse me, in
dichotomizing the fact that our curriculum at Howard, be it he
ever good we can possibly nake it — and we are trying very
hard to make it the finest curriculum we can — to nake Howard
the best school that can possibly be, I still have trouble
dichotomizing the fact that maybe the Supreme Court decision
of *54 which said in fact no matter how equal we make it, it
will not be equal — and this is pretty tough on the person
in curriculum who feels very strongly about this.
q All right. Although your language arts innovati<
although your language arts program is innovative, is your
total curriculum significantly different, that is, with the
exception of the vocational program at Howard, from, say,
Brainerd or Chattanooga?
A I think with the exception of vocational —
excuse sc, vocational program, I don't think it is. This is
a different attempt. I think probably this is a better way,
hut it is a language arts program. I think —
q (Interposing) Then, your answer would be that
H i r H A R O S M I I H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
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McCallie - Cross 732
the total —
A (Interposing) Bo, sir.
q (Continuing) — is not significant?
A No, sir, I don't think it is significant, no.
q And, would you — would you say tha sane with
xogard to Riverside, that tha Riverside is substantially tha
as the other high schools?
A Proa what I know of the program, yes, sir, sub
stantially the sane.
q Would your language arts curriculum be more
effective, do you feel, in an integrated school?
A I'd like to say so and I'd like to say why I
think.
q All right.
A in language arts curriculum, in our literature
courses, for instance, you are not talking about things in
abstract. You are talking about a story »• ** relates to
life. And, many times as u:i English — as a language arts
teacher, as we talked about things in the language arts
program and as we got deeper into concepts, which is what
the community and these advance courses is all about, even
in facts, in ideas, and ideals of one and two levels, as we
talked about these, there were questions raised which white
_ white students could nave given their opinion oo and
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McCallie - Cross 733
when seneone then would say — well, bring up the question
why they are not here, it left a void in this.
Therefore, in any situation I feel we need the
diversity. I think this happen* all the tine in any good
concept course. We need the diversity of their opinions.
We need the diversity that is presently among blacks; but
we need the diversity that is mmoag all peoples. And, we
need these ideas to put together to come up with, I think,
a whole.
q Are you familiar with the Coleman Report?
A Tes, I heard him speak on it.
q And, the Civil Rights Commission report on
racial isolation in the schools in 1967, are you familiar with
that?
A I am somewhat familiar with that.
q Are you familiar with the evidence developed as
expounded in the Coleman Report to the effect that racial and
socioeconomic isolation does tend — does damage children in
education?
A Tes, sir.
Q You agree with that?
A From what I have seen, yes, sir, I believe that.
Q And, are you also familiar with the concepts of
the Coleman Report and the Civil Rights Commission report to
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HcCallia - Cron*
ch. • t f c x . that th. raaoval of black and m l o a o o DMleally
i
deprived or disadvantaged children to a middle-class anvi
educational environment, tends to improve their educational
achievement?
A Tea, sir, I have read it in other reports so I
am not sure whether I am getting it from that report or
another report that I have read.
q Do you agree with that?
A ie<!( *ir, I do.
q And, I believe the findings also are that that
does not substantially lessen or damage the achievement of
the children in the middle class environment with wU<x> they
ere mixed, is that true also?
A The reports I have read say so. I believe that.
Q And, do you agree with that?
A Tes, sir, I do.
Q in your opinion, is the Chattanooga scnool system
still substantially segregated or is it integrated?
A Substantially segregated.
q All right. In your opinion, would it be feasible
to integrate the Chattanooga school system?
A Yes, sir, I believe it would.
q And, would it be feasible to do it expeditiously?
A I thinX so, yes, sir-
734
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1 McCallie - Cross 735
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a life-long resident of Chattanooga, are you not?
A Tes, sir, except for the tine I was in the Navy and
college.
q Believe that you are also what we call a white
person, are you not?
A Tea, sir, I an — acme say. I
Q sons say? I an sorry, I didn't — didn't have tine
I
to have copies of those nade.
Mr. McCallie, were you — have you ever heard of
a group known as the — known as the Downtown Interracial
Dialogue Group and Other Friends for Integration of Our Public
Schools?
A Yes, sir.
Q y.vplain What that was, please.
A I was part of that group; that is, it was a group
that was founded, oh, three, four years ago, a group of people
who got together — black and white — who felt like we had a
racial disharmony, who wanted just to talk about things and
discuss things, and over the years, it grew.
There were more people talking and discussing.
We felt like there were things, though, to do nore than just
a dialogue and at any rate, mainly, what we did was sit in
dialogue and try to bring in new people.
q i will ask you whether or not — I believe you are
R I C H A R D S M I T H O f F I C I A L C O U R T H t P O H T t R
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736
HcCallie - Cross
„ Did you alao • « ^ * * t of « “ • * ° ° l *y,te“
ln July „t m , to »rin* an - to .^ro,.tioo i» U . ^ u -
nooga school sy*t*s?
A Yes, sir, vo did.
Q ! will h » d you fir-t . typowritton docu-nt and
.m will stats shat that is? ask you if you wax* ,w“ *
A This — a .tot— nt that our group wrote aod thon
* * x pr— tad to « . J»<* — f , - - * - » 3-P.riat— ,
Of the Chattanooga public schools, Thursday, July 24th, out at
» . « < > - u — - •“ <“ “ “ - “ “ “ “ " ”
„..,w «d « d . V * -* ‘*1J
w we said in this, that was theand Howard. Many other things
4
gist.
„ L U . to introduce that a. th. — t «d»ibit.
Your Honor please. ^
THE COURT* Exhibit 62 63
IS
1!>
(Thereupon, the document referred (There^on, Exhibit Ho.
63 for identification, Witness Mr.
^ c i n i i ^ n d roceivod in « * * “ « • >
b y MR. WILLIAMS;
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All right. Now, was
presented to the Superintendent?
yes, sir, I read the
that statement actually
A
him.
Q
statement and handed it to
i '--~X
! will hand you now a n— p a p « *lppi*K> *•*•* <
[ I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R F P O R T t R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
/
McCallie - Cross 737
July 25th, 1969, and ask you if that is an account in the
local press of the presentation of that a tat— ant?
A Yes, sir, that is.
Q Photograph of you and some others?
A Yes, sir, that is.
Q Like to introduce that as the next exhibit.
THE COURT: Exhibit Ho. 64.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was narked Exhibit No.
64 for identification. Witness Hr.
McCallie, and received in evidence.)
BY HR. WILLIAMS:
q What newspaper, incidentally, was that?
A That is the Chattanooga Tines.
Q Mr. McCallie, what, in your — what, in your
opinion, has been the effect of the operation of the freedom
of choice, the so-called freedom of choice plan in the assign
ment of students to high schools in Chattanooga?
A One of the things that this statement that you have
just introduced points out is freedon of choice has not
effected the full integration of our schools. It's effected
some integration of several schools like City and Brainerd, but
it certainly has not effected integration of Riverside or
Howard.
Q You use the word "effected," (spelling) e-f-f?
A Effect.
R I C H A W D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
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McCallie - Cross 738
0 All right, sir. Have you also had occasion to
observe the condition of the elementary schools?
A Yes, sir.
Q In Chattanooga?
A In a small part.
Q In your opinion, have the zoning system with the
combination zoning and transfer system which has been operated
by the school system of Chattanooga effectively integrated the
elementary and junior high schools of Chattanooga?
A Ho, sir.
Q In your opinion, could a system be devised — well,
think I have already asked you that, haven't I?
A Yes, sir, you asked that earlier.
Q All right. Mow, then, how is the educational
experience at Howard affected — affected by having grades one
to twelve in the same physical climate?
A We have had quite a bit of discussion on this
recently, some talking with somebody of knowledge, and the
feeling of many teachers, we felt — I feel that having the
one through six, this has not affected it very much. They're
pretty well separate. If they were closer to us, I think maybe
it would have, but I don't think that's been affected very much.
It's almost like a separate school.
Q Sort of like an educational park?
R I C H A R D b M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R f L R
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McC&llie - Cross 73>
A Yes, sir, in that way. I think having the junior
high and the senior high has detrimentally affected us.
Q In what way?
A There are several ways, but one, we are too crowded
with two different age groups. I know that there are schools
larger than we are, but they don't have the two different age
groups. And, we feel that not only — well, obviously, one
way we are too crowded. We only have one gymnasium for two
schools, which naans boys and girls, high school and junior
high school, have to use the same gym for PE. I think there
were plans for two gyms, but this had to be cut, as I under
stand, for economic reasons. I was a student, though, in
high school at the tine. I didn't understand.
q Were you educated in the Chattanooga school system?
A I was educated in the private schools of Chatta
nooga.
Q All right, I see.
A Another thing about this is that we feel our
junior high students especially, maybe our boys, our young men,
our males, a n greatly influenced by what they see senior
high students doing, and it seens that it's always easier to
be influenced by the bad. We have many young men in our
senior high school who are fine examples for our junior high
boys to follow, but it's easier, it seems, to follow the boy
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McCallie - Cross 740
who is doing the wrong thing. And, we feel it’s a bad influence
on our junior high students.
we feel — I go bach to the large — it’s a vast
complex and in trying to identify problems, one thing in
working with curriculum, we can coma up with a program that
is creative and can be used in the senior high; but because of
scheduling problems, because the junior high runs on a little
bit different schedule, it’s hard to do anything with it so
much so that — and one of the things that affects us the
most is lunchtimes. We all have to eat — the junior high
begins their lunchtime at 10:30, which actually is not fair
to them. They have their first period at 10:30 and second
at 11:30, so they are practically eating breakfast.
And than we come in. To do certain things, wa
would want to change things around lunch period, but we can't
do it, because the junior high is there, and we think — 1
think working in both schools, my job is to work in both those
schools, and in fact, in the elementary, too. I feel that is
detrimental to their program as it is to the senior high
program.
q i believe that Howard is the only one to twelve
school in the entire city, isn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q All of the other high schools are ten through
McCallie - Cross 741
twelve, is that correct?
A Unless Riverside is still nine to twelve, which
I believe they are.
0 All right. Riverside is nine to twelve?
A Yes, sir.
q go that only the two blade, high schools have these
irregular program patterns?
A Yes, sir, that I know of.
q Now, are you aware of the effect of these irregular
program patterns with reference to locking children into a
pattern of segregation or not?
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Nell, it would
(Interposing) Does it or not?
Yes, sir.
Tend to lock them into a segregated —
(Interposing) Yes.
Why, explain.
Well, what we — we have got an educational park
which was built for blacks in a side of town t&ich at that
tine in 1953 was not completely black but in my opinion was
projected it was going to be black — become black.
And, with the building of three schools —
q (Interposing) What were those three schools?
A Howard Senior High and elementary in one complex
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making a whole black complex, so to speak, and it has remained
totally black. The evidence speaks for itself, I mould think.
McCallie - Cross 742
Q I believe Howard School was built in 1953?
A Tea, sir.
Q All right, sir. Wow, are both black white
students deprived educationally by trying to learn in a
segregated environment?
A This is one of the things that this integration
dialogue group said, we felt that both are deprived.
Q What way are the whites — excuse me, deprived?
A We felt, if there is a feeling of inferiority,
which is effected in the black student, then there is an — and
I have seen because X went through it — the corresponding
feeling of superiority in the white students, and we feel this
is a false feeling of superiority and a superiority that
eventually he will Jiave to confront when he faces the black
student in the job market.
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It nay be that this white student, the white
person, will still get the best job, but he will always have
this misinformation, it seems to me, of the inferiority of
another human being.
q All right. Mr. McCallie, is speed important in
removing these conditions of educational inequality?
A Think it's very important. I'd like to say why
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4cCallie - Cross 743
I think 6 0.
Q I wish you would.
A In reading recently the St. Louis integration
situation, which I realise isn't completely effected and not
without problems, but one thing that this report that I have
read recently, in connection with my job, say that they felt
that by speeding up the process, you handle more of the problems
immediately and you were able to face the problems, to confront
the issues, to bring people together.
I feel like if this school system had integrated
immediately, oh, let's say, in the early sixties, then at least
we would have had only one group who didn't want to integrate,
that was the whites. I still feel that many, many black people
want to integrate and feel that integration is right and good,
and I feel regardless of black militants who now do not want to
integrate, I disagree with them, too. I think all the studies
show that integration is the best and only way viable for our
lives; but we have set up a position — a situation in which
many black people now are somewhat turned off by whites and
the fact that they had to fight integration so long and were
rejected so long that now their attitude could well be — and
I have seen some students, at least some students have said to
me, ’‘Mr. McCallie, I don't care whether they come or not."
It's a rejection. It's something you feel and it'a
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a defense mechanism, I think.
q Sort of resentment generated by the long and
protracted delay and resistance?
A Yes, sir.
q On the part of the whites?
A Although I still feel in spite of resentment or in
spite of that kind of feeling that were we to allow that
resentment to keep us from integrating, too, we'd still hawe
the same problems; and any longer — waiting to integrate any
longer, we still set up these resentments, until we face the
issue, we can't solve it.
q All right. Is there any relation between the
growing of that resentment and any continued delay from here on
out?
A Yes, sir.
q What is your view about —
A (Interposing) I think the continued delay sets
up within the black person that the white people do not want
them, that they're still rejecting them, and this —
q (Interposing) Longer the delay, the harder it's
going to be?
A The harder it's going to be, yes, sir.
q One final area and that is the faculty. Is the
faculty at Howard — are the faculties in the schools of
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MoCallie - Cross 745
Chattanooga intsgratsd?
A In sons cases, but in many cases, not.
Q Would you say that looking at the faculties of the
schools in Chattanooga that those schools which are all pre
dominantly white, have faculities which are all predominantly
white; and those that are all or predominantly black have
faculties which are all or predominantly black?
A Yes, sir.
Q Explain what if any condition — what if any
effect that has in the process of integration?
A I think, as I listened to you speaking to Mr. Hendr|Li
I think that a person in the community looks at a school and
students look at a school which has almost totally black faculty s
appears to be an all-black school, and therefore, regardless of
freedom of choice, it remains an all-black school.
And, I'd say the same thing happens, then, in a
white school.
Q Insofar as the freedom of choice method of assignment
is concerned, would this or not have a deterrent effect on
black parents in selecting a formerly white school or white
parents and students in affecting selecting a formerly blade
school?
A Yes, sir, I think it would.
Q Does it in your opinion retain an aspect of racial
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segregation and identiflability insofar as —
A (Interposing) Yes, sir, it does.
q (Continuing) — schools? And does this adversely
affect the educational program in your opinion?
A Think therefore it does.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITT:
q Mr. McCallie, did you volunteer to go to Howard
High School?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q In answering questions put to you by Mr. Williams,
the word "integrated* was a part of your answer. In order to
understand your answer, would you describe to the Court what yoi
mean by the ter* "integrated school"?
A well, I believe the integrated school is one which
in either case has more of the minority, whichever situation,
whether white or black, than just a small percentage, let's sey
25, 30 percent at least. I would say as a rule, for purposes
of integration, 10 percent doesn't do very much, in my opinion.
So, I'd say it would have to be more than that, and
I'd say also that an integrated school takes into consideration
every type of student it has beyond black and white, any other
type of student, and tries to allow that person to participate
in all phases of school life and so on.
McCallie - Cross 746
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To me, desegregated would be one of the other
students or one or two or three or 10 percent of the other
students in one of the schools; but that's not — that's not
integrated. The opposite therefore of integration would be
a larger percent in full participation and I think that
q (Interposing) Are you saying that integration to
you, as you understand it, this word is a mathematical concept,
number of black students and white students in a given school?
A No, sir, that is why I tried to show that there's
something more than just mathematics. I think there is a
feeling involved in this. I think there is a — there is a
recognition by all concerned — teachers, faculty, and students
McCallie - Redirect /4/
14 that all students in that school are a part of that school,
ir, I gain frcra that school, give to that school; and therefore, are
H i all — are incorporated in the program in that school. That's
1 7 certainly more than just mathematics.
I S Q And, your cossaents relate to black students?
i n A They relate also to white students.
4 0 Q White students, black teachers, and white teachers'
4 1 A Yes, sir.
4 4 Q Everybody that’s in the school?
4 4 A Yes, sir.
4 1 Q Are you speaking in terms of mutuality of feeling?
4 ‘> A Yes, sir, I am.
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Me Cal lie - Redirect
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748
You are talking about spirit?
Yes, I an talking about everything.
You are talking about the intangibles?
Yes, sir.
Do you know of an integrated school?
From everything I hear within this city?
Of your own experience, of your own experienoe,
do you know of an integrated school, not sonsthing you have real
but using your definition which i happen to agree with.
A i understand or from a school I have been in, my
school in Baltimore didn’t fit it mathematically; but fitted it
in the intangibles, and every other thing, but not mathematicalLy
very small percent.
Q Of what?
A of black. it was a largely white school. It
that from students that I talked to both in my school and at
other schools, while City High — Chattanooga High School doean
have maybe as large a mathematical figure as I would have
suggested, many people feel that the spirit is there — the
spirit of harmony and cooperativeness and —
Q (Interposing) Why do you attach any significance
to numbers?
A Because I feel that from what I have seen, for
instance, in my Baltimore school, I feel that with approximate!f
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HcCallie - Redirect 749
30 blacks out of 1,200 students that these students were
accepted and they ware in the clubs and so on; but they didn't
bring to the school as auch of their cultural experience. It
was subjugated somewhat to the overall white experience. 1
feel like they had — their ideas and their experience to bring
to the school in a larger way than they were able to because
they were so alone.
Q Numbers handicapped then?
A I believe; yes, sir, I believe nuafcers handicapped
them.
q if the situation had been reversed and those had
been whites in a predominantly black school, would you have
to the same conclusion?
A I believe I would, except for one fact, I think I
would except for the fact that the society — our society is
based on the white majority. I have never been in a school, X
have never been in a black school that had, say, 30 whites.
It may be that because they were backed by society, which is
white and white ideas, that maybe they would be a stronger
force culturally than 30 black students coming from the minorit
society group into a school. 1 would like to see whether bind
or whites — I would like to see, whether black or white, a
larger integration of either group.
Q All right. Would you — would you say that braine:
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I McCallie - Redirect 750
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High School wa an integrated school on your definition of the
tern "integrated”?
A I, on ay terras?
Q On your terns.
A Oh, ny terms. I think Brainezd is having trouble
being an integrated school. Don't think it's a desegregated
school. It certainly is a desegregated school. I don't believe
it's completely and truly integrated, no.
Q How, in your commitment to desegregation or
integration, how would you balance this objective against the
quality of the educational program?
A Oh, I think there's a direct connection. Don't see
that ms could ever nor would we want to throw away quality
education, and I don't think those of us and certainly not those
of us in this group are asking that anything but quality educa
tion be retained. That's why — that's why I personally — and
I, in my job, have read studies on integration and studies such
as the one made of White Plains, Hew Tork.
In post-testa and — pre-tests and poet-tests show
that where black students who were of a lower socioeconomic
group and showed up lower on the tests, were brought into a
largely middle-class white school. Both groups showed and
achieved better on the post-tests in education than the pre
tests.
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McCallie - Redirect 751
I an never asking for the lease ing of quality
education. And, I go back to saen thing I said before. In fact,
in today's world and in what the United States should be today,
it seems to m in this democratic society for the black child
and the white child to group without each other, they are losing
something in education right now. We are not — we are not
teaching just academics. We have got to teach, for instance,
in these language arts courses that we are talking about, we
have got to teach concepts. We have got to have a place for
these concepts to be shown. And, without — without the other
side of our whole community — if we are oblivious to one side
of our community and leave out that side, then we have left
something out of life and left something out of true knowledge.
I think true education is oertainly more than just
the learning of a fact, it*s the learning of the concept, also.
Therefore, intregration should help achieve this and should
therefore help achieve quality education.
Q In performing your job, you would consider that
you should identify any factor that night have a negative
effect upon the quality of education, any decision that you
made?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, how many white members of the faculty ere
there at Howard approximately?
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McCallie - Redirect 752
A Approximately — approximately nine in the high
school and approximately four in the junior high. And, Z am
sorry, I can't tell you in the elementary. Maybe three — three
or four in the elementary.
Q Are they — are these teachers that are crossover
teachers, are they there voluntarily or involuntarily?
A I think the first group that case were there
voluntarily. Z think recently, Z am not sure about each
individual teacher, but Z don't think each individual teacher —
Z don't believe each individual teacher has asked necessarily
to be at Howard. Z think the first group that cause did ask to
come to Howard specifically. The last few have been, Z believe,
plaoed where there was an owning at that ties.
Q Z have forgotten, when did you say you were employed
A Z was employed in the fall of '68.
Q Zn your employment interview, were you asked
whether or not you would teach across race lines?
A Never gave them the chance to ask. Z wrote a letter
saying Z wanted to be at Howard or Riverside.
Q Do you know whether other applicants were asked
that question the year you were employed?
A Mr. Witt, Z don't know. Z didn't talk to anybody
else about it.
Q If a person is in an environment against his will.
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an educational environment against his will, will this have
any Impact upon his or her ability to receive the educational
opportunity that's made available in your opinion?
A Yes, 1 think it could. Hill it have any impact
on it?
HcCallie - Redirect 753
Q
A
Q
A
i'ea.
Yes, I think it will have an impact.
Would it be substantial?
That all depends on how good the educational sys
2.1
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is. I believe — 1 believe if there are things that this
society is facing which it needs to case to grips with, then I
think — I think we are going to have to confront this issue.
Just the mere fact that every child up to sixteen has to be
there, we have got children in our school who don't want to be
there, and that's hard, and I answer this with yes, that's
hard on the educational environment, because we have got to
persuade that student that education is what he needs and what
he wants and he doesn't want to be there. He wants to be out.
And, in that way, yes, it's difficult. It's much
easier to teach the student who wants to be there. So, if the
question is whether a student who doesn't want to be specifically
at Howard School than another school, certainly 1 think that
would offer a degree of difficulty which we haws also got to
handle.
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McCallie - Redirect 754
Q
A
0
You would say that that was an acceptable risk?
Yes, I would say it's an acceptable risk.
And the school system's responsibility to meet it?
I didn't —
(Interposing) And the school system's reponsibility
to meet that kind of a challenge?
A Yes, X think it is.
MR. WITT: nothing further.
RBCBOSS KXAHIHATIOH
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
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Q Just one other question. There was mention of —
! well, perhaps two other questions — there was mention during
v your redirect of what your feeling is about the a m b e r of
ir> students required, about the racial ratio required for an
16 integrated school. Does that explanation that you gave have
any relation, have any specific relation to the condition of the
18 0 ethnic composition of the society, of the community in which
19 the school is located, and with particular reference to whether
>o 8 or not the school ought to reflect to extent the conditions
in that community, you follow?
A How, I do, now, I do. Yes, I would — I would think
so. If I understand, I think I understand your question.
Q in Chattanooga, for instance, I understand that the
population of the community is approximately, was it —
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A (Interposing) Think it's 40 percent black.
Q Forty percent black and sixty percent white.
Should that ethnic cocapos it ion of the cosnuaity be reflected
to soee extent in the school?
A I think, yes, sir, I do, yes.
q And, is that an educational desirable?
A I think it's an educational desirable.
q Now, then, also, yon Mentioned that you felt that
integration would include not only the physical placing of
the bodies in the school but also the full participation of
all students in the school?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
q To include those, the ethnic minority, and you
talked about a feeling?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
q How, is that feeling likely to cone about without
actual nixing of the bodies in the school?
A I don’t see how it’s possible to have that feeling
without the —
0 (Interposing) Do you feel that any desegregation
plan should or should not contain specific provisions directed
toward securing that full participation of students?
A Yes, sir, I do. I ’d like to say how.
q All right, sir.
KcCal lie - necrose
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McCallie - Recross 756
A I think not only with the school itself but faculty
members and students, that is, just sitting down in discussion
groups, having that programmed in that we will sit down as may
be Dr. Bond's human relations conferences that we have had, but
also with the community. In a study by the Mew fork school
system, it said that moderates continue to argue that we should
not have — that they should not have community-wide discussions
and discussions out of the community because it would only
bring chaos and confusion and what they found was — at least
what they interpreted aft*,r it was all said and done, they
said in fact that those meetings, regardless of the confusion
that they seem to contain and emote, did more to help bringI about the satisfactory and the very harmonious integration of the schools because the parents got it all out — got all their
feelings out. They brought in experts to talk to them and so
on, rather than their pushing it back into themselves, waiting
until the kids hit the school, then bringing out all their
parents' anxieties and so cm to fight each other, and then they
had progress in the schools without that.
MR. WILLIAMS: I see. Thank you very much.
THE COURT: All right, any tiling further?
MR. WITT: May it please the Court, this afternoon
at 3:30 is the Chattanooga Board of Education's normal Monday
meeting, and it involves a lot of people. If it would be
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McCallie - Recross 757
possible — would it be possible to Adjourn court early for
them to go ahead with their scheduled nesting?
MR. WILLIAMS: Tour Honor please, in general,
adversary counsel is very gracious about things, but it really
is killing me to be away from the office down here and, of
course, I didn't realise the Legislature was going to be
continuing on anyway, and I was hoping to get in that last
week next week; but looks like the way Mr * Witt is going, we
will be going over to next week here.
THE COURT: Well, if we proceed in this until 4:00
o'clock, would that make available —
MR. WITT: (Interposing) That would be very
appreciated.
THE COURT: Very well. Let's plan to proceed
until 4:00 o'clock. Let's be in recess for one hour. As I
understand, Mr. McCallie may be excused?
18 II MR. WITT: I have no further questions.
.q ,| (Witness excused.)
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(Moon recess.)
a f t b r m o o m s es s i o n
(Thereupon, pursuant to the noon recess, court
reconvened, and the following further proceedings were had,
bo-wit:)
THE COURT: All right, you may call your next
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Bond - Direct 758
CLAUDE CONKLIN POMP,
called as a witness at the instance of the defendant, being
first duly sworn, was examined and testified as followst
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITT;
q Mould you please state your name?
A Claude Conklin Bond.
Q What is your present employment. Dr. Bond?
A Assistant Superintendent for Pupil Personnel
Services for the Chattanooga public school system.
Q would you briefly state your educational background?
A Well, graduated Tulane College, AB, Jackson,
Tennesseer MA University, Nashville, Tennessee; Ed. S, specialis|
in education administration, George Peabody College, Nashville,
Tennessee.
Q
A
Tennessee.
Q
A
Q
What was your first teaching assignment?
I was principal of a one-teacher school in West
When did you come to Chattanooga?
November 19th, 1956.
What was your employment immediately preceding
coming to Chattanooga?
A I was principal of the Montgomery School, grades
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Bond - Direct 759
one through twelve, at Lexington, Tennessee, for 21 years.
Q What was your initial assignment in the Chatta
nooga school system?
A Principal of Howard High School, grades through
one through twelve.
Q Mere you principal of Howard High School in 1962?
A Yes, I was.
Q Do you recall the splitting off of a portion of
the Howard student body to Riverside in 1952 — '62?
A Yes, I do.
Q Mould you explain the circumstances under which
this occurred?
A Hell, at that time, we had an overcrowded condi
tion. We had some 3,400 kids, grades ot u through twelve, I
believe, about 1,580 in the high school division, ten through
twelve. And, the reason, as I understood it then was that
because of the overcrowded condition at Howard and in order to
enable the children to get better instruction, that the school
was getting too large because of the overcrowded condition and
they decided to split the school.
Ms gave up some 500 kids or more to Riverside.
And Riverside came into existence at that time.
a Mas this about at the time that the (iwamr City
High moved its student body to north of the river?
V
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Bond - Direct 760
A Yes, City High coved out, RiverBide was opened the
next year.
Q Have you refreshed your neeory with regard to the
Board action and the Material that was given to the Board in
March of 1963 at the time this change was tecosmended?
A Yes, this Board, the Board took this action to
separate the schools, to set up Riverside as X have previously
stated, because of the overcrowded condition in order to
relieve the situation, I believe, then, that at Bast Fifth
Street, Park Place, and portion of the Orchard Knob sons.
And, the zone lines were set up directing that
those students who were in attendance at Howard from — north
side of town would go to Riverside and the others would go to
i tow ard .
0 How was this division accot.t lisbed with regard to
faculty?
A I didn't get your question.
0 How was this division accomplished with regard to
faculty?
A Well, it was determined on the projected enrollment
that Riverside would have, the number of faculty members that
would be needed. And, as they went about to staff a school,
they paired off people — teachers on the Howard faculty. I
am more familiar with that than I am the other part of it —
h k ' h a r d s m i t h o f f i c i a l c o u r t r e p o r t e r
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
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so that they would reach in the hat — decide, I naan, determine
who would go where, whether one would stay at Howard.
For instance, if you had four English teachers and
needed two of them at Riverside, then our four English teachers
would draw in the hat, two name a at Howard and two at Riverside.
What I am trying to say, I think they went about it very
objectively in trying to staff the school.
Q Do you recall about the time that this occurred,
this planning?
A This was previous to the school's opening in the
fall. I guess it must have been somewhere around March we got
started on it — February, March, April, scam tine the preceding
school year before the school opened in September.
Q Do you recall the status of desegregation at the
time this decision was made in the spring of 1963?
A What do you mean by the status of desegregation?
See if I follow you.
Q You will recall that grades one through three
were desegregated, believe, in 1962-63 under court order?
A Right.
Q Do you recall under that court order when high
schools would have been desegregated?
A As I recall, three or four years later. It wasn't
at this time.
Bond - Direct 761
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Bond - Direct 762
q Have you checked any of the material that was
used at that time to communicate the procedure for this split-
off to the faculty?
A Yes, sir, I have — have some of it here.
q d o you have the material when this was presented
to the Board of Education for its recommendation, for its
action?
A Yes, I have a communication here dated March the
13th, 1963. Board of Education approved the establishment of
a new secondary school, grades seven through twelve, in the
Third Street Chattanooga High School building.
On this nil ran date, zones were approved for the new
high school and Howard High School.
q All right. Now, why were these zones used?
A Well, I think it was an administrative decision that
Howard had been the only black school for years and years in
the Chattanooga community and there were a lot of sentimental
attachments on the part of the kids as well as their parents
who were graduates of Howard, many of them, and there was some
concern that in setting up the new school, this was most
especially on the part of those graduating seniors, that they
could not — would not be able to get into college.
this was a concern and the school would not be
accredited. This wes a big concern, and there was another
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
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concern that there was some feeling on the part of the blade
community that Riverside would be — I mean, old Chattanooga
High School was being given to the Negroes and the whites were
running up on the hill. All of these were factors, I think,
that accentuated the situation.
0 All right. In this plan to split off portion of
Howard, were the students that would have been in the twelfth
grade at Howard in 1963-64, were they allowed to remain at
Howard or were they all required to go to Riverside?
A They all were required. That was a lot of concern,
and I personally contacted the State cose&ittoe. Southern
Association of Colleges and Schools, to determine our status.
And, the cosed.ttee assured me, along with Dr. Carmichael and
others, that this would not be a factor, because these students
had spent most of their time in Howard.
Howard was an accredited school and on the basis
of Howard being an accredited school, that they would have
nothing to worry about; that they would give them this status
at Riverside if it was part study ~ after a year's self-study,
next year they COuld apply for admission into the Southern
Association of Colleges and Schools.
This was done. They entered their self-study.
T.o second year we made application and Riverside was admitted
in our meeting at Louisville, Kentucky.
R I C H A R O S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R 1 R i P O R U H
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Bond - Direct 764
q Ordinarily, how 10 0 9 would it taka a new high school
to receive accreditation from the Southern Association?
A Hall, some never receive it. Sona can't meat the
qualifications. There are quantitative as well as qualitative
qualifications that have to be eat, and I don't M a n to imply
that school is not a good school if it's not a M a h e r of the
Southern Association; but those of ns who work with the Southern
Association, who know about its programs and plans, feel that
it helps to make a good school a batter school.
q Hare any of the plans for the split-off, was this
need for accreditation recognized?
A Oh, yes.
q what kind of steps were taken to prepare for
accreditation for Riverside High?
A The Superintendent made a statement to the whole
community that this would be first priority. It takes a certair
amount of time, since it was a separate unit, but he made his
commitment to the Chattanooga community that this would be done.
The Board of Education spent money to see that it
was done. We got a committee in here, top educators from all
over the country, all over the state, and b o m out of the state,
to take a look at the program.
The faculty engaged itself in this s?*lf-study for
a reasonable portion of the year, and the recommendation was
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R t P O R T E H
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Bond - Direct 765I made to the State committee, and the State i: u— i ttee made the
recosmendation to the parent body in Louisville that Riverside
be adaitted as a fully accredited school.
Q Has these any difficulty in obtaining this accredi-r>
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tation?
A Hell, it was — we knew certain things had to be
done. He knew that such things as class sise, teacher qualifies
tion, certification, we knew the steps to be taken and we want
about to see that the needs were net, qualitatively as well as
quantitatively, and when the roilttee cane and visited for a
whole week and took a look at t*ve program, they nade a full
recommendation that it be adaitted.
Q Here any estiaates nade at that tine of possible
increase or projected increase in enrol laent on the high school
level at Howard and Riverside?
A At the beginning?
0 Tes.
A Yes, we determined that there would be at least
500 noro new students coning over and above -- these are
tenth-day enrollment figures, enrollment figures that we have.
And, it had — our enrollment was growing year by year. I
think 1 went there, we had about 2,800 and at this time I had
been there perhaps five years, six, and we'd gone to 3,400.
Now, I am speaking about all over.
H l i H A R U S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R t P O R U M
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Bond - Direct 766
Q I see.
A Elementary, junior and senior.
0 the 500 additional students at Howard, could you
have accommodated these?
A Think it would have been most difficult, because
we were crowded beyond the point where we could have — well,
we were doing, as I thought, an effective job.
q now is the curriculum determined for Riverside
Qigh?
A Hell, we had a committee of Central Office staff
as well as teachers to work on this and the idea generally was
to make it as near like Howard as we possibly could —
comprehensive high school with a curriculum that would meet the
interests and needs and abilities of the students who attended
the school; and they were primarily the same types of students
as we had at Howard.
So, we set up shops. He set up the academic
curricular courses pettemed very much after Howard.
q was the curriculum as finally decided upon sub
stantially the same as Howard?
A i think so, with the exception of maybe one or
two offerings in the vocational area. I don't think they had
afcoemaking over there. I think shoemaking, right Off the bat,
substantially — you said substantially. I would say yes.
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0 Dr. Bond, how long did you serve es principal
of Howard after 1962?
A After 1962, I served one year after the school was
separated.
Q Then what was your next assignment?
A Coordinator of general education for the Chattanooga
school system.
Bond - Direct 767
Q
A
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How long did you serve in that capacity?
Three years.
What was your next assignment?
Assistant Superintendent to the job Z nav now.
Beg your pardon?
Position I hold now.
Yea,
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Assistant Superintendent.
Do you have responsibilities in a certain area?
Oh# yes.
What is that, please, sir?
It's an area of social services, health services,
counseling, guidance, testing, and attendance.
Q You have had this responsibility how long?
A Well, I have had most of it for four years. Only
»ho attendance responsibility for the last year.
Q I see. Does the — does the a d m i n i s t r a t i o n of the
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Bond - Direct 768
pupil transfer policy fall in your division?
A It does now. Previously was in another division.
Q How long has it been?
A One year.
Q One year? Do you have any familiarity with the
way the transfers have been administered prior to this last
year?
A Yes, I think we substantially axe going about it
the sane way that tie do now; when a request is made for transfer,
we check it out. tie have a conference with the parents, tie
try to determine the validity of the request.
tie have our social workers check out sonatinas
like guidance counselors and people of this sort who go to
the source of the problem and now we make a rero— inflation to
the Superintendent. He is not obligated to take our recoauendj
tion. Most of the time, he does, and we try to be very object!
about it.
Q Do you know of any transfer where the race of the
child was the sole factor in granting or denying the transfer?
A I can only speak for this last year, and I can say
absolutely not.
Q You know of any situation where the transfers have
been administered for the purpose of maintaining segregation
of students?
W*t H A R O S M I T H O F M C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
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A Not to ny knowledge.
MR. WITT: No further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Bond - Direct 769
q Ur. Bond, at the tine that Riverside was established
this was done in order to aooonnodate black children living in
this area in the heart of town, wasn't it?
A Well, that plus the fact that I Mentioned awhile
ago, our overcrowded conditions. Beyond that, I s b not
q (Interposing) Of course, there were vacant spaces
in the new Chattanooga High School, were there not?
A l am not familiar with the —
q (Interposing) Are you familiar with —
A (Interposing) I was at Howard then. I am not
ffn-Hlar with how many si*ces they had.
q You aren't familiar with pupil capacity at all?
a You don't have that in your area?
9 A I didn't get your question.
0 | q you are not familiar with the pupil capacities of
the school buildings in the City of Chattanooga?
A I am now.
Q Sir?
A I am now.
Q All right, sir
H . ( H A R O S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T N t P O R T k M
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Bond - Cross 770
i
School had opened with enrollment of 1,189 pupils. Chattanooga
High had capacity of 1,300 at that time, so there was sons
capacity at Chattanooga High at that tine, wasn't there?
A Yes, if that's the case.
Q There was likewise zone capacity at Brainerd at
t..~t vl:-.e inasmuch as it had an enrollment of only 1,001 with
a capacity of 1,120. So, in those two schools, there were
vacant spaces of over 200 vacant spaces?
A Yes.
Q But, of course, the black children could not be
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transferred to the north to the new Chattanooga High or to the
Brainerd High because of the policy of continuing segregation
in the high schools?
A That was in effect at that tine.
0 Yes. And, regardless of the reasons for the —
for the policy action in zoning between — as between River
side and Howard High, it is apparent that that — whenever the
School Board has reasons unrelated to race, to zones in high
schools, there is nothing to prevent then from doing so, is
there?
Hall# affected — a zone between Howard and River-
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side, this was the only zone that was put in effect.
q And, the purposes of that zone were purely
administrative, because all of the children were of the same
M u H A H O b M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R t P O R T £ R
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race?
A Right.
Q And, one of the considerations in establishing
that zone was, I gather froe your testimony, that there might
be emotional attachments to Howard High School which might
cause — which Blight cause children — emotional attachments
to Howard «nd psychological resentments of the handing down of
the Riverside High School which might cause the blach children
to remain in Howard to continue to want to apply or remain in
Howard and leave vacant spaces in Riverside, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q Yes, sir. Knowing of the racial attitudes and
prejudices that exist among people, would it not be logical to
suppose that the freedom of choice plan, which went into effect
on the initiation of high school desegregation in 19b <*, might
result in similar attitudes of emotional attitudes related to
racial prejudice resulting in continued segregation in the
high schools?
A I an not too sure whether I understand.
Q what I am saying is that the Board in effect
recognized emotional problems and psychological in
connection with Riverside and Howard and therefore established
a zone line, didn't they?
A Right.
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U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Bond - Cross 772
If it hsd not done so, there might have been over-
ft
crowding at Howard?
A Definitely was overcrowding at Howard.
Q Now, then, in 1966 when all the high schools were
opened for attendance by everybody without regard to race or
color, Howard and Riverside remained all black, didn't they?
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A That's right.
Q And, Chattanooga and Brainsru remained substantially
all white, didn't they?
A That's right.
0 State whether or not in your opinion that continued
segregation in those schools resulted in at least in part from
motional attitudes of racial prejudice?
A Well, I think as we assess the problem, as I have
assessed the problem, that we do have emotional attitudes andI prejudices and these negative attitudes from our parents, fromQ Yes. And, state whether or not in your opinion
that that continued segregation resulted in part from those
attitudes?
A I think so.
Q Now, then, did the Board consider, as it had in theI case of Howard and Riverside, the utilization of femes in order l > correct that emotional problem?H ■» h A H O T s M . l H O F F I C I A L C O U R I H I P O H U R
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A Hot to my knowledge.
Bond - Crons 773
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Q la your opinion, has ths freedom of choice which ths
Board adopted boon affective to eliminate, abolish, segregation
in the high schools or ineffective?
A I would say not Howard, because Howard and River-*
side are just about all black.
q so, then, it has been ineffective, I gather from
your answer?
A I would think so in these schools, especially.
Q All right, will you agree that the curricula are
substantially the same at Howard and Riverside, Brainerd and
Chattanooga High Schools except for the vocational program?
A So far as I know. I would think that you would
have at Brainerd and City High more emphasis in the — strictly
what we call, strictly academic areas. As I said —
q (Interposing) with the exception of the vocational
program? Of course, Howard and Riverside do have very
extensive vocational programs, don't they?
A Yes, end they have extensive academic programs,
too.
Q Yes. All right. Now, I said with the vocational
emphasis apart and aside, would you not say that the academic
curricula at those four high schools are substantially the
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! Bond - Cross 774
A X would say they are substantially the sane.
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Q Now, then, you nentioned in connection with River
side that the curriculum at Riverside, the general curriculum
program was designed to be tailored as much as possible so as
to make it identical or substantially similar to that of
Howard?
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q And, you mentioned in connection with that that
the — that this was done because the type of students that
it serves. Now, would you explain, sir, W»at type of students
did you have in mind at Howard?
A Nall, perhaps X used the wrong word in saying
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type of students. Ha have at Riverside and Howard, and X
think X can speak pretty fairly objectively, that — and the
record will bear this out — that a large number — when I say
a large number, I am talking about perhaps from 60 to 70
percent of the students who go to Riverside and Howard now,
as the report we just got out yesterday would indicate, that
their high school education will bo terminal. They are really
not college bound. And, therefore, these vocational courses
come more nearly meeting their needs and their interests so
they will have a marketable skill upon graduation so they
could go into gainful employment ia what I meant. ̂
q Now, on what basis was that determination made.
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Bond - Cross 775
that those students were not college bound?
A On the basis of the courses that they choose to
take during their high school career and on the basis of their
indication of what they were interested in and on the basis of
the follow-up study that we Bade of all of our graduates fron
the past five years.
q All right.
A Four years.
q All right. Mow, t!\ose courses that they choose and
the interest that they expressed are based in part on their
experience, are they not?
A I would think so, and the experience of their
parents.
Q Are they not based also on part upon their educa
tional experience?
A Tee.
q The children — state whether or not, and 1 take it
you are talking about high school students when you are talking
about selection of courses — oourse offerings and expression
of interest?
A Right.
q And these children who are Baking these expressions
liave been educated in the eleaentary schools of Chattanooga
for the most part, have they not?
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Bond - Cross 776
A Yes, they have.
0 And, most — and would you or not eg]nee that the
statistics show tha elementary schools of Chattanooga remain
substantially segregated just as do the high schools?
A Substantially so.
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Q Are you familiar with the Coleman Report?
A I have heard him explain it. I read s o m thing about
it in literature.
Q All right. Are you familiar with the Civil Rights
Commission's report on racial isolation?
A Yes, I read that.
Q Are you aware. Dr. Bond, that racial and socio
economic isolation has a great deal to do with the aspirations
of children to go to college?
A These studies show that.
Q Do these studies likewise show that most white
children in middle-class areas like the Brainerd area, there
are a far higher percentage of them ordinarily expecting to go
to college because of their education and because of their
family circumstances and their community circumstances and
their educational environment?[That's correct.
And, are you aware also that the studies show that
is children, black and poor children, are removed from racial
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Bond - Crons 777
and socioeconomic isolation into tha middle class eavironaant
educationally, that their aspirations tend to immediately change
and improve and then they develop these aspirations to go to
college?
A Every study I have read shows that.
Q Yes. So that to sene extent, then, the placing of
vocational courses in areas of die — of black and disadvantaged
children tends to — tends to conqpound the error, does it not,
in the sense that it assumes that they are not college bound
»nd denies them the opportunity to have the educational ex
perience that would cause them to develop the aspirations for
college?
A Lawyer, 1 want to maybe —
q (Interposing) After answering the question, would
you then explain, sir, if you can?
A Mali, I would think what you are saying is based
upon your philosophy.
Q Well, is what I am saying —
A (Interposing) Based on your philosophy, I would
say yes. On mine, I would say no.
Q All right.
A Mow, would you give me a chance to explain?
Q Yes, sir.
A Well, first of all, I don't feel that all students
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who go to high school ought to go to collsgs. I fesl that in
the world of work, ws have students who are talented in the
crafts and various vocations, whose abilities are suited and
their interests lis in this area, should have the best opportuni
to achieve in the area they are interested in.
And, when you imply that a school is a bad school
because all the kids don't go to college, I can't agree with
you there.
0 I am not implying that and so we aren't as far apart
as you suspected, Dr. Bond. What I am asking you is this)
Whether or not you would not agree that if we placed the
vocational courses at an all-black school, predicated on the
expressions of interest and course choosings, course selections,
by students of that area which indicate that they do not want
to go to college, then if on the other hand, we admit
that those aspirations are in a part — in part, at least,
caused by that very segregated environment end that those
aspirations might change if we eliminated segregation and
racial isolation and give them an opportunity to be exposed to
the middle-dees environment) if we concede those two things,
which I think you have conceded, isn't it true, then, that
by locating the vocational courses in that black environment,
and only in that black environment, it tends to be a discrimina
tion against those black children. Wouldn't you have to agree?
Bond - Cross 778
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Bond - Cross 779
A
Q
A
Don't agree with that.
You don't agree?
I don't agree with that.
Well, then, what chance do the white children —
(Interposing) Well, we have another predominantly
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all-white school here whose student body is predoadnantly
white and fewer than 7 percent go to college.
Q Yes, sir.
A Trained for vocations. I don't want to —
certainly don't want to imply that just placing vocational
courses in an all-black school is an indication that that's
an inferior school. I don't accept that.
Q Well, you seer, to — you seen to have a hang-up
on that. I am not saying that. I am asking are there any —
are there any vocational courses a t Brat nerd?
A Very few.
Q All right, tainly not the duplications of
Kirkman that you have at Riverside and Howard?
»() J a That's correct.
2 1 | q You don't have those duplications of Kirkman that
you have at Riverside and Howard at the north Chattanooga
High School either?
if.
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NO.
Now, both the north City Chattanooga High School
w u H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Bond - Cross 780
and the Brainsrd High School are located in white neighborhoods,
1 aren't they?
1 A That's correct.
> Q
(> they?
• A
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9 School?
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They started out being white high schools, didn't
So far as I know, always been white.
Mow, what kind of a neighborhood is fiovord High
Black.
All right. Nhat kind of a neighborhood is the
12 Riverside?
n A Bleak.
1 1 Q Both of then started out being black high schools,
i r, didn' t they?
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A That's ay understanding.
Q All right, sir. Now, then, and at the ties the
vocational offerings were located there, they were located
there as a natter of segregation, were they not, because blacks
were not permitted to go to Kirknan High School so they put
the vocational education right there in the bleak high schools
in their neighborhoods, didn't they?
A Well, now, when you say it's a matter of segrega
tion, I can't agree with you there.
,r Q All right, well —
H U H A R O S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R T P O H U H
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Bond - Cross 7S1
A (Interposing) I still contend we are trying to
meet the needs of kids, black or white.
q Let's just take that out of it. The school system
was segregated then, wasn't it?
A Right.
q And they were located there in those schools at a
time when the school system was by law or at least not by law,
but by the regulations of the School Board, segregated?
A Right.
q Mall, now, regardless of the semantics of the thing,
you have to concede that the vocational education courses
were placed there because of segregation in the sense that black
children in those neighborhoods were not permitted to go to
Kirknan High School?
A I will concede to that.
q All right, sir. Mow, then, when you leave those
vocational courses there in the schools in the black neighbor
hoods which remain all segregated and you do not place them
in the schools in the white neighborhoods, not placing any
out here in Brainerd, you are not placing any up hare in north
Chattanooga, would you not have to concede, Dr. Bond, that this
tends at least to suggest to black children a greater emphasis
on vocati i education than it does to white children in the
schools that are located in the respective neighborhoods?
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A That suggestion probably is true.
Q Tes. And, you also would have to concede, would
you not, that in terns, you don't want all — you have just said
said awhile ago that you don't think that everybody ought to go
to college, that there ought to be sene people who don't go to
college, is that correct?
Bond - Cross 782
A Yes, sir, I think so.
Q You, yourself, sir?
A Seme of then have to do som of this work that we
have to do.
Q All right, sir. But, you aspired to become a doctor
of philosophy and you reached that, did you not?
A Hell, Z just accidentally got where —
Q (Interposing) You just accidentally — well, I
don’t think anybody accidentally got — everybody has jamm help
from someone. Is it your intention to tell the Court that
you think all the p-ople who don't go to college ought to be
black people?
A Oh, no.
Q Hell, then, explain to the Court, if you will, how
you then relate that to a policy of putting vocational schools
exclusively in high schools that are located in blade neighbor
hoods on the theory — on the basis of a survey showing that
pupils in those schools — in those black neighborhoods have
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lesser aspirations to go to collage?
A Mali, I think you said something, lawyer, a few
minutes ago that Juis to do with aspirations of students. You
Mentioned the training of the parents, the expectations of the
parents, the socioeconomic level of the parents. All of these
things ones into aspirations.
Q You think students ought to be limited by the
training of their parents?
A Ho, not necessarily.
Q You think they ought to be United by the aspira
tions of their parents?
A I didn't say that. 1 think this aspiration of the
4 ■
parents have a lot to do with how far the kids go in school.
Q Can the school system, by its administrative
operations, have something to do with how far children go in
school?
A I think the duty of the school system is to see
that everybody gets equal opportunity — educational opportunity
and the constitutional rights of every child that's preserved.
Q All right. Do you feel that it is the duty of the
school system to see that black children receive an equal educa
tional opportunity with white children?
A : Absolutely.
Q Do you feel that that is achieved when you place
xx«: - Cross 783
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Bond - Cross 784
vocational schools in thsir neighborhood on a basis of a
survey that thsy have lower aspirations for oollege when you
admit that those lower aspirations nay themselves be caused by
the existing segregation? Do you feel that that is equal?
A You Mentioned survey. I an not fMiliar when you
talk —
Q (Interposing) Didn't you Mention sonsthing?
A It was a follow-up. It was not a survey to determlx
who would go where. Ours was a survey that followed up the
graduates of these various schools.
Q so, than, you did not have any data to support your
suggestion that 70 percent of the — did I understand you to
say that 60 or 70 percent of the children in the Howard-
Riverside areas were not college bound?
A I could give you the figures of our recent survey,
if you would like for me to.
Q I thought you said you made a survey?
A I did, but it was not a survey that determined
what courses would be offered to then. This survey determined,
as best we could, and it had its limitations, to what has
happened after they graduated.
Q Didn't you offer that — didn't you offer that
survey and your statement about it in contradiction of my
assertion that it was discriminatory against the black children
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Bond - Cross 785
- to leave ths vocations!, schools at Howard and Riverside?
1 A Z balievs what I said, lawyer, was that this survey
4
1 determined that for the past four years that we have been con-
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ducting in ny division, that we have had 70 plus percent
students froa Brainerd going to college each year; around 70
from City; and a little above 30 percent froa Howard and River
side. Up until this year, 18 percent froa Howard.
Q That's already in the record?
A Yeah.
0 Hell, now, isn't — doesn't that reflect — doesn't
that reflect in part some of the discriminatory aspects of
segregated education? You have just conceded the evidence in
the Coleman Report and Cavil Rights Casssission report showed —
A (Interposing) I don't rr.ow ti.at it would.
Q You don't?
A Ho, X don't, because —
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q (Tnterpoeing) What does it reflect? Are black
people inferior to white people?
A I don't believe that at all.
Q What do you believe?
A I believe that we are obligated to provide every
child an equal educational opportunity programmed to meet his
interests, needs, and his abilities, and we arm ts have a
program there to adainister to the needs of the child.
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Bond - Cross 786
Mow, if you are going to ssy that auto Mechanics,
comnercial foods, tailoring are inferior vocations, Z would
disagree with you. But, I an saying that kids who are prepared
to go to college ought to have an inspiration and the opportunity
to prepare to do college work, regardless of race.
q Do you believe that blade children ought to have
that sane opportunity?
A Absolutely.
q All right, sir. Now, do you agree that — do you
agree that tt.c. statistics to which you have alluded regarding
college attendance and which actually are found in Exhibit 46 —
I will just tell you — I will just read then off to you
exactlyt
•78.9 percent of the Brainerd graduates, 96.4
percent of the Chattanooga graduates, 18.8 percent of the
Howard graduates, and 29.3 percent of the Riverside graduates
attended college last year. This was — "
A (Interposing) You said 96 point sonsthing of
Chattanooga High. That*3 incorrect.
Did Z say 96? I thought I said 78.9.
That's correct.
78.9 of Brainerd, 69.4 of Chattanooga?
That's correct.
18.8 of Howard and 29.3 of Riverside graduates,
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1970 graduates, attending college.
Hoy, Dr. Bond, as an educator, *.ould you say that
that great disparity reflects that there is nothing wrong
with regard to the kind of education that is being given black
children?
A I wouldn't say that it suggests something wrong,
there are many factors — reasons why.
q Regardless —
A (Interposing) Kids don't go let me finish ey
statement, please.
q well, sure, yes, sir.
A There are nany factors. One is a big economic
factor. If you look at that same report I mentioned a moment
ago, it had its limitations, 75 of the 404 students graduating
from Howard are ^.accounted for. Every one from City and
Brainerd and Kirkman are accounted for in this study. We don't
know whether this is exact or not, but going to college, many
students don't have the money and they stay out and work a year
o ||or two before they go, and perhaps will wind up going.
q Dr. Bond, do you apprehend that the dCOaoc&ic
factor is sufficient to account for the great disparity between
* 11 the 78.9 percent at Brainerd and the 18.8 percent at Howard?
t | x I wouldn't say totally.
.ir, I q Sir?
787Bond - Cross
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Sir?
Bond - Cross 788IA I would ssy it is a factor, but not being for the
total.
* Q So that there is sons other factor that is casing
in that reflects sons disparity as between the educational
h conditions that are applying to black high school students
and white high school students, isn't there?
H A 1 would think so.
* q Tes. And, that factor is related to continued
1° racial isolation according to the Coleman Report and the Civil
M Rights Coesaission report, isn't it?
12 A That's correct.
15 q And, too — and, those reports teach — those
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reports teach that continued racial isolation causes continued
retrogression in the aspirations and attitudes of black children
to achieve, don't they?
A I will agree with that.
q All right, sir. Mow, then, agreeing with that,
wouldn't you have to concede that it ia unfair to attempt to
apply a factor of fclack children not going to college in
deciding whether or not a vocational school should be placed
in the neighborhood? Wouldn't you have to agree to that?
A Would you state it again? Make your statement
again? I am not sure.
q Since you agree that if you lock black children
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Bond - Cross 789
“ 8 into a racial environment that kills — that tends to destroy
! I their educational aspirations, isn't it like the ckiCA<;n and
I egg to then say because they have no educational aspirations
’ we have to conclude that we shall place a type of education in
6 1 their schools which is suited to those who don't have high
educational aspirations?
8 isn't that like the chicken and the egg and isn't
9 it self-defeating?
10 a Well, it could be.
II q Yes. Thank you. How, then, wouldn't the Hostsrd-
Riverside plan for reassigning teachers work, in reassigning
n teachers for desegregation?
it A Would you state —
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Q (Interposing) I think you said that when Howard
and Riverside — when Howard and Riverside — when the black
students were divided up, that you divided up the black teachers
and that you sort of drew lots?
A That’s right.
q Put tlie names in the hat and drew lots? Have you
heard of that being used in connection with school desegrega
tion?
Did you read about that method being used in
Nashville last fall?
A 1 read about it.
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Bond - Cross 7*°
q Yss. Wouldn't that be an acceptable plan for —
operational plan for reassigning teachers for desegregation?
A w«llr I think the main purpose of that was to be
assured that — that equally well-qualified teachers would be
placed in one school as well as left at the other.
q Yes.
A X «k this sane thing could bold true if we are
going to get then across race lines.
Q a s a natter of fact, that's been one of the
problems in sons — in some school desegregation situations,
hasn't it? That black parents claim that they put the worst
vhite ' - achers in the black schools and the best black teachers
in the white schools, that's been the widespread complaint?
A I have heard of that.
q Of course this objective method of drawing teachers
by lot would be a way of circumventing that complaint, wouldn't
it?
A 1 would think it would.
q Yes. How, does the Board transfer children
the Board did transfer children in 1962 from Howard to River
side in spite of those school loyalties you talked about?
A oh, yes.
q And, isn't it true that that transfer and that
transition was successful?
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A I think it was fairly successful.
Q So that since the black children were expected to
overcase their school loyalties in order to carry out the
purposes of school adninistration, it's certainly feasible for
white children and black children in the course of school
desegregation to similarly subjugate their school loyalties
and other emotional factors to the primary aim of achieving
school integration, isn't it?
A Well. I think you have a new dimension, but I
think if you want to know, if I am for integration, the answer
is yes all the way; but let me say that you have a matter of
attitudes from hones, racial attitudes, that will cone into
play now which was not a factor in the Howard-Riverside deal.
Q in other words, what you are saying is that so long
as it's black children and there's nothing but their loyalties
and feelings that that's not significant?
A I didn't say that.
0 Well, that was significant then, wasn't it?
A It really was significant.
q All right. That was just equally significant with
any racial loyalties, wasn't it?
A There was no racial loyalties in this situation.
Q But, there might be in connection with school
integration?
Bond - Cross 791
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Bond - Cross 792
A Oh, yes.
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A
Might be some racial loyalties?
Right.
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Q Wouldn't you say that these loyalties are
equally strong in either case?
A Yes.
Q All right. And, wouldn't you say that the primary
i) aim should be the efficient and the lawful administration of
° the schools rather than attempting to cater to loyalties of
11 students and parents?
12 A Absolutely.
15 Q Yes, sir. Mow, is it true that that high school
11 reorganisation did not result in danger to accreditation in
|r> 1963?
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A It did not.
Q is it not true that now high schools may conduct
their eligibility self-study during the first year?
A I didn't — a new high school.
Q Isn't it true that a new high school stay conduct
their — their accreditation, yeah, accreditation self-study
during the first year?
A Most new high schools don't.
Q They don't?
A Ho.
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Q When do they conduct their self-study?
A After being established for a while.
Q How »any years?
A This, at least — well, it varies. They'd have to
get permission from a State committee. Let me just say this,
Howard and Riverside — mostly Howard students who had been,
some of them as long as three years at Howard. This was a
special kind of a thing that the State committee made for
Riverside.
I have never known a new high school — completely
new high school to go through this process the first year
other than Riverside.
q Have you ever been on the board? Have you ever
held any office with the Southern Association?
A I have been a member of the board of directors.
Q Sir?
A I have . -en a member of the board of directors
of the Educational Improvement Project. That's a phase of
the educational association.
q Do you actually have anything — have you ever
actually had anything to do with the accrediting operation?
A Oh, yes.
Q You have? What?
A I have served on visiting committees. I have
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helped choose people to serve on visiting cceaitteea. I have
helped to pass on the* when they get to the main convention,
g Hhen do they usually have the visiting oo*eittee?
A Mall, it cones various tines during the year.
6 n DO they have a visiting cosnittee for the purpose
of determining whether or not they are going to be accredited?
A After you have been engaged in your self-study?
q All right.
A Thia self-study is done by faculty of that school
and then you invite a visiting ccmittee to cone in and take
a look at your progra*. They look at all areas. They supposedly
have people who are outstanding in their field and this visiting
c o a ^ t t M will report to the State committee their findings.
q well, isn't it true that new high schools »ay
have a visiting ooenittee during the second year?
A Oh, yes.
q That they nay be admitted to accreditation before
any students graduate who has never attended an accredited
high school?
A l a * not familiar with that.
q All right. MOW, then, with regard to — with
regard to, you say you were assistant? You were a coordinator
of general education for three years?
A That's correct.
794
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Bond - Cross 795IQ That you have only becose responsible for transfers
in this past year, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q You all have — the school system has a transfer
’ policy that it uses, Or. Bond?
A That's right.
8 q All right. I will ask you to take a look at this
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and see if this is a copy of the transfer policy that the
school — maybe Dr. Bond — let me just hand this to you. Hand
that back to me, please. I want to put these back together.
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Witt, it's material that you
furnished me. I should have handed you a copy of it.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
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Q Dr. Bond, you are holding in your hand a copy of
certain materials that were furnished me by the School Board
pursuant to a subpoena — by the Superintendent, rather,
pursuant to a subpoena, and which contain the transfer policies
which have been used by the School Board for selected years.
Can you identify those as being —
A
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(Interposing) That's correct.
(.’cmtiauing) — that's true and correct? All
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right, sir.
I'd like to introduce that as the next exhibit.
THE COURT: Exhibit 65.
H . i H A R O b M U H O F F I C I A L C O U N T R E P O R T E W
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(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
65 for identification, Witness Mr.
Bond, and received in evidence.)
Bond - Cross 796
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ME. WILLIAMS: Mr. Witt, may I ask whether or not
I can be furnished with another copy?
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
0 Let us turn to the transfer policy also v iich axe
presently in effect and which are found at the very end, the
June 1970 transfer policies, Dr. Bond.
First, let me ask you whether or not transfers
are administered on the basis of written applications in the
Chattanooga school system?
A Fes, they make a written application for —
Q (Interposing) Where does the parent make the
written application? Who makes the written application?
A The parent.
18 All right. And, where do they make that?
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my office.
Mr. Holden.
They usually cone to the principal or to me, to
I have a sum in ay office who looks after this.
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Q Which principal, now, the principal of the school
to which they are assigned or the principal of the school to
which they seek transfer?
t
A Well, if a child goes to a school which is out of
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his sons, the receiving school, then the principal would direct
hi« to go back because you are casing here out of sons. You
nust have a permit to attend the school.
He then goes back to his principal and with a parentj,
the parent makes a request of us. He have our social service
workers guidance counselors to check it out, and we get
right upon it get his reasons and if they fall within policy,|
it's not too much difficulty in getting it.
But, if it's out of policy, it's very — rarely
ever does he get it.
q All right. Now, then, suppose a child goes to the
school, tie receiving school, and the principal of the
receiving school just accepts him there?
X They don't do that.
q Well, how do you know they don't do that?
A Because he has to have enrollment cards. He knows
his school rone lines.
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office.
Q
28 A
24 Q ;,
A
How does he know his school —
(Interposing) He has it right on the wall in his
you mean the principal has?
The principal has this.
On the wall in his office?
And —
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q (Interposing) How, what administrative procedure
has the school system established for checking the action of
principals in forcing zoom lines?
A Wall, he knows he is not supposed to disobey the
regulations.
q You assume, then, that the principal — you asst
that the principal enforces the zoom lines, is that correct?
A we have evidence that they do. Me think people of
integrity never had occasion to find them in error on this.
Maybe —
q (Interposing) Mali, you have no machinery — you
have no administrative machinery to check to see whether they
are in error?
A The people who work in my office know every child,
know the parent of every child, the social workers, they know
where they live, and they have a roster of enrollment and they
would know. If the principal would iy accident admit one,
they would correct it, and we
q (Interposing) How would they correct that?
A They have a list of the children and they know
where the children go.
q now many people do you have working in your office?
A It’s 31 in this area.
q Thirty-one social workers?
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A T S S .
Q All right. They visit the school?
A Oh, yes, they are assigned to schools.
Q They are assigned to schools?
A They are assigned to schools.
Q Are they attendance teachers?
A well, in sons respects. Me don't like to refer to
then as attendance teachers. Me like to have a little more
sophisticated nane, but in some areas they work with attendance.
q is it their duty to check and see that children
attend schools within tl»cir zones?
A Right, and they — principal makes referral to us
if a child is absent or if he is out of zone. Me look after
that as our responsibility.
Q All right.
A Part of it.
Q Do you know how — who preceded you in that
position?
A Well, this was a split division of educational
programs. This division — the responsibilities got so heavy
until four years ago that then Superintendent of Schools divided
the division, health services, social services, counsel
services, testing services, and put all those in one division
and the regular educational programs remained in the division
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::V8 had all the tins.
Q nr. Bond, I an not following you. I understood
you to say on direct examination that you have had responsibili
ty to supervise transfers for only one year?
A That’s correct.
Q Did I —
A (Interposing) You are correct.
Q All right. Mow. who had that responsibility before
you assumed it?
A Believe this was handled in general education,
general administration.
Q Mho was the individual responsible for that?
A Mr. Taylor.
Q All right. That’s Mr. Taylor woo has testified
here previously?
A That’s correct.
0 Yes.
A Believe he had that responsibility along with people
working in his office.
0 All right. Do you know whether or not any specific
procedures were established during the course of the administra
tion of the desegregation plan, in this case, to check to see
vVitlwr children were attending schools within their sanes.
That is the question I am asking you.
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A Nell, I can answer for the last year.
Q But, you cannot answer it before?
A Beyond that, I cannot.
Q All right, sir. Now, then, you haws been
adjoin is taring this June '70 transfer policy that has bean in
effect for the last year?
A That's right.
Q Is that right?
A That's correct.
0 All right, sir. Now, that policy says that to the
extent of reasonable building capacity, pupils whose parents
or guardians reside within the city limits of Chattanooga are
admitted as follows, and item one relates to pupils whose
parents or guardians reside within the school sons, doesn't it,
that'a —
A (1: titzv<>sing) That's right.
Q Go to the bacdc — third page forward fren the back.
^ All right.
Q Item one relates to pupils whose parents reside
within the zone, doesn't it?
A That's right.
Q All right. Now, then, item two relates — relates
to out of zone or permanent students and it has sevezal sub-
paragraphs, which are lettered and which set forth basis of
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Bond - Cross 802
transfers of children, does it not?
A That's correct.
Q All right. Sow, taking the first of those, children
or adopted children or other minors living in the hone of
school personnel, you have three — how many teachers what's
the total number of school personnel?
A Oh, some twenty, 1 believe, around twenty-one
hundred.
Q Some 2,100? Does that include faculty, staff.
mr\A Custodial and iaa5. t n e e personnel and all?
A 1 am thinking about the total.
Q All right.
A Employees.
Q So, that you're immediately permitting — that
-oi ire immediately permitting the children of 2,100 families
to go out of xone when you include that, aren't you?
A Hall, assume that everyone has a child.
Q Hell, but some have more then one child?
A Tr.at's right.
<2 Wouldn't you assume that you'd have about 2,000
children if not more than as a result of that exception?
A Maybe so.
Q Yes. What's the total number of children, 25,000?
A Twenty-five thousand plus.
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Bond - Cross 803
Q All right, sir. How, then, children of working
parents who are placed in established agencies which provide
before and after school care nay attend schools in which the
zone — the agency is located. Do you have any idea how many
children have been allowed transfers under that exception?
A Mot a large number, I don't know exactly.
Q All right. Let me ask you this: Would the children
under subparagraph A, that is the adopted children or other
minors living in the hone, children or others living in the
hone of school personnel, would they have to apply specifically
or are they automatically granted?
A They fall within this regulation.
Q They're automatically granted?
A They are automatically granted, but let me say most
of them don't request their children to go to a school other
than the one near them.
Q Well, there's a great deal of — there's a great
deal of residential segregation in Chattanooga, isn't there?
A Oh, yes.
0 Tss. But, subparagraph B in effect says that if
a white parent lives down here in a black neighborhood of a
black school, all he has to do and if the mother is working,
all she has to do is to place the child in sons agency, find a
white school — a white school zone with a child cere agency
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Bond - Cross 804
in it and she's hooutfree under this transfer ground, isn't she?
A Think she would be.
q res. And, similarly, a black parent who wanted to
keep his child in a black school but lived in the sons of the
white school would sImply — all they'd have to do is find an
agency in the zone of the black school?
A That's correct.
Q All right, sir. Mow, then, item C, children from
homes broken by separation or divorce who are placed with
child care agency or individuals may attend the school in the
zone in which care is being provided. So that this simply means
h e n again that all they have got to do is find an agency in
the zone out of the school they want to go to and this permits
autosuitic transfer, doesn't it?
A That's correct.
Q Now, let's take subsection D, children of working
mothers whose child is placed in a home of a relative or other
responsible person.
Now, that opens it real wide, because in that case
under that transfer position, if a white mother lives down
here in the black neighborhood, all she's got tc do is find
a second cousin out here in the white neighborhood and say that
her child goes, stays with the cousin after schoo l, end she's
automatically entitled to a transfer under that provision,
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Bond - Cross 805
isn't she?
A That's right.
q And subsection £ says, "Hand 1 capped children
who nay have a particular circumstance qualifying then for
assignment to a school outside their zone."
f*»n you imagine any medical reason why a child
would have — handicapped child would have to attend a school
outside of the sone?
A Oh, yes. We have special services that — for
the hard of hearing, the school for crippled children at
Ridgedale.
q Is that a special school?
A Ho, no, no, it's a class in a school that's
provided, and we have a bus pick them up and carry them to this
Q (Interposing) All right.
A (Continuing) — school.
Q So that then you haven't stated a reason for the
child being assigned outside his sone because you have got a
bus who picks him up and takes him over, what did you say,
Ridgedale?
A Ridgedale, M ary Ann B row n.
q For service? Can you think of any reason why
handicapped children should have an exception authorizing them
to attend school outside his sone?
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I Bond - Cross 806
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A Hell, if the services — see, we don't have too nony
students — handicapped children qualified for this type of
service. It's not feasible to have it in every school.
So, a determination is to as os to what school
will offer this service, like the hard of hearing at Sunnyside.
We have children c carp lately deaf. We have to provide sons type
of service. They go to this unit.
Q Are any of those services for especially handicapped
provided at any of the black schools?
A We did have at Howard. Orange Grove, now, I was at
Howard. We had sose sentally retarded classes.
Q This was when the school was —
A (Interposing) Ours is still segregated.
Q When it was segregated by specific rule of the
Board of Education?
A Tee.
Q They were there because the children by law couldn't
go anywhere else, weren't they?
A That's right.
Q Yes. But, they are not — as soon as ostensibly
desegregation had covered Howard, then they were removed,
weren't they?
A, Well, they were token over by Orange Grove. I on
not so sure as I remember the date.
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Q Orangs Grove?
A Orange Grove. This is tbs special school for
handicapped children here in the city.
Q so, there is a special school for handicapped
children and there's no reason for an exception of then attend-
iiiq school in their tone other than when they are assigned to a
special school?
A A\is special school — let ee clarify this. Orange
Grove is not run by the City of Chattanooga systssi. It has —
it's a separate school run by a separate board of directors.
It's not a part of the Chattanooga school systesi.
And, the kinds of classes we have here, they don't
take care of these students. Like the hard of hearing and the
severely crippled children, we have — Mary Ann Brown.
Q All right. Well, let’s pass on to section F,
children from hones — you say you do transport the handicapped
children?
A Sons of thee we do.
Q All right. If it iaproves the education of a
child, is the School Board willing to transport such a child
to school?
A I didn't get your question.
q if it iaproves the education of a child, is the
School Board willing to transport such a child to school, for
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Bond - Cross 808
example, a crippled child or deaf child?
A I would think so.
Q Yes, all right, sir. Children from hoses in which
subsection F, children from homes in which serious illness or
hospitalisation of the mother or guardian and prohibits adequate
child care and for whom care is being provided in the sons at
which the request is made. Mow, who determines what area
illness is serious?
A well, this — an investigation is made before any
of these requests sure honored. And, ws request examination
even from the Health Department.
We atake our own determination as to whether or not
a child can be qualified under this provision. And, as I said
previously, every one of these requests thoroughly -- every one
is thoroughly investigated.
q All right. Well, let's go to subsection G, situa
tions requiring working mothers to take children to places of
business for before and after school care may be permitted to
attend the school to 'which the business address is zoned.
So that really that's just a reiteration of B,
isn't it? That — sxcept that B is related to children of
working parents and this relates to children of working mothers!
They may in effect by this selection of the child care agency
dodge the zoning requirement mandate if they —
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Bond - Cross 809
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A ( I . i t * rposing) That's possible.
Q Yes, sir. And, that's an autosMtio exception, too,
isn't it, if they shoe that?
A And if we investigate it and find that it's a valid
request.
Q
A
granted.
Well, it's valid?
It falls within the policy, they get the request
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Q But, it's valid if they selected the agency to
care for the children there, isn't it?
A That's right.
Q Bow, let's take subsection H, pupils in rare cases
may be assigned by the Superintendent of Schools for reasons
of adjustments or — now, what does adjustment mean?
A Adjustment? I would think — well, I know of one
case where we had to do this on account of adjustment. Could
»
I just relate to you what ; i pened?
■V.
we had a youngster who was a behavior problem in
a certain school.
q Was he black or white?
A Wee white.
Q Yes.
A But hs had a black tsacher, but the black teacher
was not the problem.
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Bond - Cross 810
Q Was ho in a black school?
A He was in a white school, predominantly white
school. And, the child — epileptic. He’d have fits.
And, for sons reason or other, he just couldn't
adjust to this situation and we thought for the child's health
and we determined — our people determined along with Myself
that race was not a factor and we did permit him — recommended
to the Superintendent that he be permitted to go to another
school, Le permitted to go to another school.
Q That was your subjective determination that race
was not a factor?
A >vts not a factor.
Q So that in the hands of — in the of a
prejudiced administrator, this provision could be ueed to permit
escape from nonracial zones, couldn't it?
A well, it's not left altogether with the administra
tor.
Q Well —
(Interposing) Other people come into it, the
principal even in the school.
Q Well, in the hands of people who might not be
willing to investigate thoroughly, it could be used?
A It could be, yes.
Q Because it's purely a subjective determination?
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Bond - Cross
A The way we use it, it's not; but I think it oould
be — you asked as if it could be. It could be, but the way we
it's not.
Q You had here for reasons of adjustment or situations
of extreme hardship. Now, what is extrema hardship? Mho
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determines that?
A Well, the A,
people in my division, the Superintendent.
Q You mean ikmbs of your employees. some of these
attendance teachers in your division?
A Yes, that's right.
Q Now, that would work — would be the parent — the
parent, after having gone to the receiving school, would be —
would be checked by the principal or by the attendance teacher
and then would be sent to the sending school and would there
fill out an application and somebody, the attendance teacher,
would then consider that application and make a recommendation
»
to you as to whether it would be approved or disapproved?
A That's right. And sometimes we send them to
psychological examiners. we have psychological examiners run
tests on them.
Q But, you would seldom see the person yourself,
would you?
A Many times I look after this personally.
0 But sometimes you would?
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Bond - Cross 812
A Every case — every case that comes across my desk
has ay personal attention because I am the one who stakes the
ssucndation to the Superintendent. And, I want to stake sure
that I an pretty well near right when I do it.
Q You have been doing that?
A Just the last year.
Q All right. Let's take subsection I, here:
“Pupils residing in an area which is resoned to
another school may continue in the school to which the address
has been previously zoned. However, the Board reserves the
right to require poplin to transfer Immediately to the school
to which the area is resoned if such action is deemed advisable
by the Superintendent and the Board."
I take it that means if you change e zone line
that pupils may remain in the old zone unless you decide to put
him in the new one, is that right, is that correct?
»
A Halt just a moment, sir. If a child moves from
one zone to another during the year and we have reason to
believe that it would interfere with his educational progress,
then we may allow him to remain at that school for the rest of
the year. This has to be upon the recommendation of the
Superintendent to the Board.
Q All right. Let's take J:
“Children whose parents have purchased or are
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Bond - Cross 813
building a bans in a given school area."
So that this particular provision permits residential
segregation to reinforce school segregation, doesn't it?
A Wall, I tell you why this — I believe I am correct
in this in saying vhy this was placed in here. Many parents
would want their children to go to a school and said, "I am
buying a hone. I am going to move — leave there" — but the
Superintendent and Board requires that sons documentary evidence
be shown giving show that he has purchased a home over there
and actually lives over there and not just saying he is buying
a home or planning to buy one.
Q Well, yes, to the extent that this permits parents
to Immediately transfer thsir children to a new school tone
and to the extent that there is racial residential segregation,
this permits the racial residential segregation to be reinforced
by school segregation, doesn't it?
>
A I don't think it does. Think what this does, if
a person desires to move from one school to get his children
in another school, say, that's segregated, we won't allow h i»
to came in and say, "I bought a home. I am going to buy a home. 1
He has to present proof that he has bought this
home, that he is going to be a bona fide resident of this zone
resident of that zone before we permit his children to change
schools. This is what this means.
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Bond - Cross 814
2 0 Bat, you don't tec anything wrong with permitting
thorn to move immediately to another school? Too t M n* that is
x administratively sound?
s I A I do if he — if his parents are not bona fide
6 u residents of another sane.
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Q Suppose they are mowing — bona fide residents to
another aono, you don't see anything wrong with permitting —
administratively wrong with permitting him to m o w out of the
school in which he is?
A No, if he wants to go, bat suppose he wants to stay
for the remainder of the year?
Q Then there's no —
A (Interposing) lie make provision for that.
Q Therm'8 no administrative — no administrative
problem, then, in changing children once they have been assigned
to a school?
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A It can be done.
Q Why then did the Board of Education about 1966 when
they adopted this freedom of choice in high schools make black
children stay in the high school they selected at the spring
registration and prevent them from changing their minds and
registering in another school daring the middle of the year?
A Don't know.
Q you axe aware that that happened, though, aren't youi
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A I asi trying to recall, lawyer.
A Yon don't rassriwr a regulation that they had that
a student had to make his choice in the spring and if ha made
a choice in the spring, he couldn't change it?
A Mo, I thought it was ten days, as I recall it.
q All right, ten days?
A Ten days.
q Ten days before the beginning of the school year,
he was stuck?
A Hot before the beginning, within — after the tenth
day of school.
q After the tenth day of school, he was stuck, wasn't
he?
Bond - Cross *15
A
Q
A
That's right.
What was the reason for that?
Reason for it was that we had to take into considera-
tion the capacity of school enrolleenta and try to sustain
enrolljaant. He had ten >: t.« <>r two weeks to determine whether
or not he wanted to stay in this school, and ws have had a
few of them request a change within the ten-day limitation.
q But, you didn't let them transfer after the ten
days?
A That's right.
q Well, why are you letting children transfer because
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Bond - Cross 816
their parents move or buy a new hone after the beginning of the
school year?
A I don't know.
Q All right, that wouldn't have a thing to do with
the fact that whites have been continually eoving out of black
neighbor!' > moving out to white eu? urbia?
A Don't know.
Q You don't know?
A Don't know.
Q And K and L relate to that same thing, don't they?
Regulation K: "Pupils who move to another school
zone during the summar immediately before the highest grade of
the school to which they have been zoned eay be permitted to
finish the final year at the school to which they were previously
zoned.”
And L: "Pupils who move to another school zone
during the school year may be permitted to complete the year
in i .a school to which the previous address was zoned.*
How that works if the other way. That permits
them to stay where they are if they want, if they get stuck
with moving into a zone that they don't want to be in racially,
doesn't it?
A That's right.
Q All right, sir. The fact of the matter is, is it
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nond - Cross 817
not, Dr. Bond, that tills da tailed transfer policy of the hoard
of Education could be used by parents to escape racial zones,
couldn't it, nooracial school zones, couldn't they?
A I think that possibility exists, but as I said,
every request is examined very thoroughly.
q Now, then, do you have charge of school transporta
tion, also?
A No, that's Mr. McCullough's division.
q . Later —
A (Interposing) Business affairs — business and
logistics.
q You don't have anything to do with school transportaj-
tion at all?
A None whatsoever.
MR. WILLIAMS: That’s all.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITT:
q Dr. Bond, I believe you have in your hand the
material labeled "Subpoena Materials No. 4" on the first sheet?
A Yes.
q Mr. Williams has made substantial points with
reference to the transfer policies as set forth on page 28, but
I think they begin on page 27. I'd like to ccs*pare those
transfer policies effective in 1970 with the transfer policies
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effective at the tine that we had a segregated school systee
in 1962.
Bond - Redirect 818
So, would you please turn to page ii from the sane
exhibit that you have, I would like to read the regulations
that Mr. Killians went over in detail and ask you to check it
against the regulations effective in 1962s
"A, Children or adopted children or other minors
living in the hone of school personnel.*
Substantially —
A (Interposing) Substantially —
Q (Continuing) — the same?
A Substantially the same.
Q All right.
"B, Children of working parents who are placed
in established agencies which provide before and after school
care may attend the school in which sone the agency is located."
A Substantially the same thing.
q "C, Children from homes broken by separation or
divorce who are placed with child care agencies or individuals,
may attend the school in which roue care is being provided.
Where questions arise as to custody of the child, the parent in
whose home the child resides must obtain a statement from the
court regarding custodianship.*
A The meaning is just about the same, little differanc
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Bond - Redirect 819
in wording.
Q Somewhat store specific, is that correct?
A Tee, Merely application, clarification of the
regulations.
0 How, *D, Children of working Mothers whose child
is placed in the hone of a relative or other responsible person
in another school zone for before or after school care M y
attend the school in which zone care is provided."
A Substantially the sane thing.
0 All right. How, the next one, "£, Handicapped
children who M y have a particular circumstance qualifying them
for assignment to a school outside their zone. Such a request
should be accompanied by a statement of the problem and a
doctor’s statement."
A Same thing.
0 F, "Children from hones in which serious illness or
hospitalization of the mother or guardian prohibits adequate
child care and for whom care is being provided in the zone of
the school to which the request is made."
A Juat a clarification of the other regulation.
Q All right. How, G, "Situations requiring working
mothers to take children to places of business for before and
after school care M y be permitted to attend the school to which
the business address is zoned.”
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Bond - Indirect 820
A Sane thing. It ape lie it exit.
q Now, H, "Pupils in rare cases may be assigned by the
Superintendent of Schools for reasons of adjustment or situations
of extreme hardship after thorough investigation and study by
the visiting teaaher service.*
A That's the same thing.
All right. Now, J, "Children whose parents have
purchased or are building a h<
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THE COURT: What is your last one? Did you skip?
MR. WITT: I beg your pardon.
BY MR. WITT:
q I, Pupils residing in an area which is xezooed to
another school may continue in the school to which the address
has been previously zoned. However, the Board reserves the
right to require pupils to transfer immediately to the school
to which the area is rezoned if such action is deemed advisable
h U by the School-Board — Superintendent and the Board."
1 A Yes.
20 Q
A
Q
Substantially the same?
Substantially the same.
All right. J, "Children whose parents have
purchased or are building a home in a given school zone, such
children are admitted to the new school only after the parents
place on file written documentation establishing the fact that
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Bond - Redirect 821
the hone will be reedy for occupancy within a brief and specified
period of tine."
A That'• almost the sane, two under I.
Q Two under I? Ie that what you said?
A Tee.
q All right. K, "Pupils who move to another school
zone during the susner isnediately before the highest grade of
the school to which they have been zoned nay be permitted to
finish the final year at the school to which they were previously
zoned."
A Just a nosaent. Is that K you are reading?
Q I am reading K, yes, sir.
A You are reading K. Don't seem to have a K in the
other.
Q
A
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race?
A
Q
A
Q
This appears to be the first new regulation?
Right.
You see anything in that regulation that refers to
No, I do not.
Would it work both ways?
Both ways.
All right. L, "Pupils who stove to another school
zone during the school year nay be permitted to complete the
year in the school to which the previous address was zoned."
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Bond - Redirect 822
Do we have a comparable regulation? Did we have a
comparable regulation, which one?
A I don't believe we have a comparable.
q All right. That one is new. Any reference to race?
A HO.
q All right. M, -Pupils assigned to special education
classes (EUR, SHH, PH, et cetera) may be placed in a school out
side the zone to which they reside if there's no appropriate
special education class in the home school or if the home achool
class is at capacity.*
Is that new?
A This is a new regulation, what I was referring to
in my testimony a few moments ago.
Q All right. So, these zoning policies effective in
1961-62 have substantially the same as the ones effective in
1970?
A Yes. The idea for this was to clear up and to
clarify some of the misunderstanding that the other regulations
caused the way they were written and this more or less was to
clarify the regulations so it could be understood by people
making requests.
q was there any intent to iaaintain segregation?
HR. WILLIAMS: Oh, I object to that, if Your Honor
please. He can't testify with regard to what someone else's
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intent wen.
MR. WITT: I m b asking his intent and those
people whan he is associated.
MR. WILLIAMS: He hasn't testified that he established
these.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WITT:
Q Dr. Bond, Mr. Willises made a reference to racial
isolation in public schools which is a report of the Civil
Rights Commission on civil rights issues in 1967. It has this
statement: "The process of education is very complex and
simple, causal connections cannot be drawn."
Do you agree with that statement?
A That the process of education is complex?
q Yes.
A I think it is.
q "May sees reasonable, for example, to say that a
student's motivation to learn directly affects his academic
performance." Would you agree with that?
A Would you read that statement again, sir?
q "it may seem reasonable, for example, to say that
a student's motivation to learn directly effects his academic
performance. * v.-.
A Yes, sir, I agree with that.
Bond - Redirect 823
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I Bond - Redirect •24
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q on page 89 it has this statement:
“Thus far the racial conposltion of schools has not
been taken into account. Does it have a relationship to
performance which is distinct from that associated with the
social class composition of schools? Research has not yet given
clear answers to this question.*
Would you agree with that?
A I would have to agree with what research says about
it. I believe in research.
q Beginning of your cross examination, Mr. Killies*
asked you if the freedom of choice plan at the high school level
had resulted in effective desegregation. Be did not distinguish
between desegregation at Riverside and Howard or Kirkaan or
City and Brainerd. Would you consent upon, in your opinion,
whether or not the freedom of choice has had any affect upon
the desegregation of Kirkman?
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A I would think it has in the case of Kirkman, if
that's what you're asking.
q Yes. Has it prevented the desegregation of City?
A No, it hasn't.
Q Has it prevented the desegregation of Brainerd?
A No, it hasn't.
q Dr. Bond, you were the principal of a one through
twelve grade school for a number of years and you have heard
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Bond - Redirect 825
the testimony with reference to this school sad certain limita
tions that were indicated.
What is your opinion based upon your experience as
principal of a one through twelve school as to its effectiveness
educationally?
A You m a n the one through twelve concept, now?
Q As you have experienced it.
A That's — only experience I have ever had was one
through twelve just a one — one through six and seven;
but other than the overcrowded conditions and that did inhibit
our carrying on the hind of program that I think we might have
carried an. Personally, 1 like the one through twelve concept
if the facilities are provided in the way that the children
won't c o m too much in contact with each othar.
I like working with elmantary kids. I like working
with junior high kids, and I like working with senior high kids;
but there are levels of maturity spread out through the school
lant, as hovard is s tremendous school pleat, and I suppose
the — eight of the most enjoyable years of my life were spent
there.
I liked it other then the fact of overcrowding,
but, now, I might add this. I don't want to sound inmodmat
when 1 do. I think a lot of the success of it is in the
organizing — the organisation, the way you use your staff and
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Bond - Redirect 826
your people in carrying on the program. I think that the junioi
high can provide an inspiration for the elementary. The senior
high can provide a type of inspiration for junior high kids
if it's carefully organized, planned, and administered.
Q Thank you, sir. In one of the questions to you,
Mr. Williams, in the manner in which he posed the question
implied that the only high schools that had vocational and
technical courses were the hlack. high schools. Is true?
A Well, he mentioned Howard and Riverside, and to
also mentioned Kirkman. 1 mentioned Kirkman, predominantly
white high school with almost full, total vocational orientation.
Q So, there are no vocational and technical programs
that are exclusive in blade high schools?
A So.
Q Would you — another question with reference to the
youngsters who are choosing the vocational over the technical
course of education in high school, there was an implication in
the question that graduates of vocational schools somehow or
other are not the same quality aa graduates that go to collage.
Do you agree with that?
A You swan the same quantity? What do you mean by
quality?
Q Ability or inferior in some way.
A Don't consider them inferior at all.
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Bond - Redirect •27
Q You were also asked whether or not you thought it
wise to cater to loyalties. I ask you, can you ignore existing
loyalties in making decisions?
A I think they are factors that we must work with.
0 Do you happen to remember how long it took Brainerd
High School to receive accreditation under the Southern Associa-
tion?
A No, I don't exactly. They got it pretty quick,
though. I just can't tell when. I was at howar* at the time,
wasn't involved in the Central Office.
Q During the one year that you have supervised
transfers, 1 ask you again to your knowledge was race a part of
the administration of these transfers in any way?
A I could only speak for the year that X have had the
responsibility and answer is absolutely not.
MR. WITT: Thank you, Dr. Bond.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q Dr. Bond, you indicated that you have had the
Civil Rights Commission's publication. Counsel for defendant
has read s q m things to you. I'd like to read page 202. It
says:
"There are marked disparities in the outcomes of
education for Negroes and white Americans. The longer they are
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Bond - Recross 828
in school the farther they fall behind. Negroes are enrolled
less often in college than whites and are each nore likely to
attend high schools which send a relatively snail proportion of
their graduates to college. Negroes with college education are
less likely than similarly educated whites to be employed in
white-collar trades. Negroes with college education earn less
on the average than high school educated whites. These die-
parities result, in part, from factors that influence the achieve
stent, aspirations, and attitudes of school children."
Do you agree with that?
A Yes, I do.
q And do those conditions exist in the Chattanooga
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school system today?
A Perhaps to some extent.
q Yes. Now, then, also reading from page 203:
"There is a strong relationship between the achieve
ment and attitudes of a school child and the economic circum
stances and educational background of his family. Relevant
factors that contribute to this relationship include the materia L
deprivation and inadequate health care that children from back
grounds of poverty often experience, the fact that disadvantaged
children frequently have less facility in verbal and written
communication — the chief vehicle by which schools measure
student achievement — and the inability of parents in poor
25
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I Bond - Recross *»-
neighborhoods to becone as involved in school affairs and
* I affect school policy as much as more affluent parents.”
II Do you agree with that?
r> a That's what I was saying a few moments ago.
"The social class of a student's schoolmates — as
a
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measured by the economic circumstances and educational back
ground of their families — also strongly influences his achieve
ment and attitudes. Begardless of his own family background,
an individual student achieves better in schools where most of
his fellow students are from advantaged backgrounds. The rela
tionship between a student's achievement and the social class
composition of his school grows stronger as the student
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progresses through school."
Do you agree with that?
A I agree with that.
q And based on that learning, then, it is urgent that
the racial and socioeconomic concentration of blacks in white
schools be e l initiated as soon as possible, isn't it?
I agree.
Yes, sir. Reading from page;
"Negro students are much more likely than white
v{ students to attend schools in which a majority of the students
n are disadvantaged. The social class composition of the
,r schools is more important to the achievement and attitudes of
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Bond - Re cross 830
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Negro students than whites.”
Do you agree with that, sir?
A Yes, I do.
Q Yes, sir. Mow, then, going over to — skipping and
going over to page 204, says, 'The nffacts of racial composition
of "Is are cumulative. The longer Negro students are in
desegregated schools, the better is their academic achievement
and their attitudes. Conversely, there is a growing deficit
for Negroes who remain in racially isolated schools.”
Do you agree with that, sir?
A I would take issue with one statement.
Q Nhat statement do you take issue with?
A Desegregated, and I an speaking now as Z interpret
integration versus desegregation. Desegregation, I look upon
just moving the bodies from one place to another; but I am
thinking about what takes place after the bodies get there and
allowing them to get in the mainstream. Granted this is done,
I would agree with the statement.
Q You would agree that there should be — that, in
other words, you conceive integration as tha full integration
of blacks into all activities?
A All activities, right.
Q All right, sir. Now, then, also says here on page
2 0 4 :
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'tacitl isolation in schools limits job opportunitie b
Zor Negroes. In general, Negro adults who attended desegregated
schools tend to have higher incones and more often fill white-
collar jobs than Negro adults who went to racially isolated
schools."
Do you avree with that?
A i think it would be possible. I have no way of —
Q (Interposing) then, finally, here, item eleven:
"Racial isolation is self-perpetuating. School
attendance in racial isolation generates attitudes on the part
of both Negroes and whites which tend to alienate them from
members of the other race. These attitudes are reflected in
behavior. Negroes who attended majority-white schools are more
likely to reside in interracial neighborhoods, to have children
in majority-white schools, and to have white friends. Similarly
white persons who attended school with Negroes are more likely
to live in an jLnterracial neighborhood, to have children who
attend school with Negroes, and to have Negro friends."
D o you agree with that, sir?
Bond - Recross 831
Yes, sir, I do.
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, at this
::i IItime, this is the official publication of a United States
>i Government agency. I should like to introduce in evidence this
r, document.
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Bond - Recross 832
THE COURT: Exhibit Ho. 66.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was narked Exhibit No.
66 for identification, witness Dr.
Bond, and received in evidence.)
THE COURT: Anything further of this —
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) Yes, sir, if Your
Honor please.
BY HR. WILLIAMS:
0 Dr. Bond, you mentioned that you liked the one-
twelve concept and spent eight happy years there; but that How
was overcrowded.
Have overcrowded building conditions and the
arrangement of the buildings hindered in any way Howard's
educational program?
A would you state your question again?
0 Have the overcrowded building conditions and
arrangements fcindared in any way Howard's educational program?
A It didn't up until the last year that 1 was there.
Q All right. Well, was there an expansion of some
thing?
A No. We — Riverside was set up. We lost about
five or six hundred students.
Q I see. Did you hear — did you hear Mr. McCallie
testify?
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Bond - Recross 833
A Heard part of his testimony, not all of it.
Q Did you hear him testify that there are curriculum
problems and other physical prc*leas — physical and educational
problems arising froa the disparity as between the — as between
junior high school students and high school students and their
need for separate facilities?
A Yos, I heard.
q That problem still exists there, doesn't it?
A Well, evidently it exists to a greater extent than
it did during the eight years I was there.
Q Although students who did not to go college are
not inferior as people, would you say the general quality of
a school program is reflected in part by the percentage of its
students who can compete in college?
A State that again.
q Although students who do not go to college are
not inferior as people — we are not saying they axe inferior
people — would you say that the general quality of a school's
program is reflected at least in part by the percentage of its
students who can compete in college?
A I would agree with this part when you say in part.
I go along with the statement.
Q Yes. Can you?
A I would not agree with it.
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Q Sir?
A if you said in total, I would not a g m with it;
but partially, yea.
Q Can you conceive of integration taking place without
desegregation as you —
A (Interposing) No.
Q (Continuing) — define it?
A No. That co— as first.
Q You hare to nix the bodies before you can get them
otherwise involved in the program?
A That's the first step.
Q And, did Brainerd High School have a graduating
class during the year that it was opened, Brainerd High School?
A Don't remember.
Q One final question with regard to — with regard
to these transfers. Do you — the first itee here shows
criteria for student transfers free a booklet 1961-62 and you
have — was that the year that — the first year that this
extensive transfer policy was adopted in the school system as
you recall?
A The one that we went over a few moments ago was
adopted last —
0 (Interposing) Last June?
A Last June.
Bond - across 834
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Bond - Recross 835
Q But, you vert comparing it, as I understand it,
counsel for the School Board vas comparing it with you with one
that was in effect, was adopted in 1961-62?
A That's right.
Q That school year? Now, was that the first year
it was adopted?
A I an not able to say, lawyer. I know it had been
in effect for some time.
Q You don't know exactly?
A '61-62 was the year, I don't know.
Q All right. Can you secure that information and
furnish it, Dr. Bond?
A I think 1 can.
Q All right, sir. Advise us whether there was any
transfer policy in effect prior to the 1961-62 and if so what
i L V \ X H .
A I will do that.
MB. WILLIAMS: Thank you, sir.
REDIRECT KXAHJMATIQM
BY MR. WITT:
q Let me ask you just one question, please. Dr. Bond,
with regard to the concept of gainful employment upon graduation,
dp you recall the school — do you recall what Kirkwan * a
percentage of gainful — people gainfully employed as a result
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Bond - Redirect 836
of your follow-up of last year's graduates, what this figure
was?
A 1 don't know exactly, but it was very high. Most
of the graduates are employed upon graduation.
Q I show you a copy of the exhibit that wSSS introduced
as *n exhibit to Mr. Black's testimony. Is that a copy of the
report of the follow-up of graduates of last year?
A Tes, it is.
Q Direct your attention to the column and the line
that reflects the percentage of students gainfully employed.
A All right.
Q What was the figure with reference to Kizkman?
A Cl.3 percent.
MR. WITT; Thank you, sir. That's all.
THE COURT: All right.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
C Taking that same document. Exhibit 46, refer to
page two of it, item seven.
You have just read from the percentage of Kirkman
graduates gainfully employed, 61.3. What was the percentage of
Howard's graduates who were gainfully employed?
A 10.9 percent.
Q What was the percentage of Riverside's graduates
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Band - Recross •37
who were gainfully employed?
A 11.9.
Q Mould you say there is a disparity as between Kirksu
and Howard in reference to their percentage of their graduates
who are gainfully employed?
A Yes, I would.
Q And, going down to item eight with regard to
unemployed, what is the percentage of Klrkaan graduates who are
unemployed?
A 3.1 percent.
Q And what is the percentage of Howard graduates who
are unemployed?
A 20.3 percent.
Q And, what is the percentage of Riverside graduates
who are unemployed?
A 23.1 percent.
Q would you say that there is a rather narked
disparity between the employability of the blades who are
receiving vocational educational training, educational training
at Howard and Riverside and the whites who are receiving it
at Kirkman?
A Yes, I would.
Q And, is that disparity favorable or unfavorable to
the i hicks?
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Bond - Recross 838
A I would think it would be unfavorable.
Q Does Kirkman have an employment counselor or place
ment office?
A Oh, yes,
Q Does iiovarri?
A Yes.
Q And Riverside?
A Yes.
0 So that in terms of the machinery for employment,
they are substantially equal, is that correct?
A They are substantially equal.
Q in terms of machinery or channeling their graduates
into employment, they are substantially equal?
A Trouble is on the outside.
Q The trouble is on the outside?
A Yes.
Q Could the trouble be related to the quality of
the training that is being given them?
A That possibly could be a factor.
MR. WILLIAMS* Thank you, sir.
MR. WITT: No further questions.
THE COURT: Let's take a 10-minute recess.
(Thereupon, a recess was taken.)
THE COURT* Now, gentlemen, as I understand, it's
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the desire of counsel to recess the trial at 4i00 o'clock?
MR. WITT: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT} Or closely thereto.
(Witness excused.)
Henry - Direct
JAMES B. HEMRY,
called as a witness at the instance of the defendant, being first
8 | duly sworn, was exasdned and testified as follows *
DIRECT EXAMXHATIOM
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Q
Would you please state your m
Janes B. Henry.
What is your present enploynent?
Superintendent, Chattanooga Public School System.
Dr. Henry, would you describe your educational
background?
^ Pirst degree, bachelor of science, Georgia
Institute of Technology; master's degree. University of
Chattanooga. Major in education administration, minor in
psychology. Doctor of education.., University of
major in administration, minor in sociology.
q All right. Mow, would you relate your professional
educational employment?
A Chattanooga public school system in 1950 and
thereafter, Chattanooga High School, dean of students, coach,
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Henry - Direct 840
dean of students, assistant principal, then principal at the —
principal, junior high division of Brainexd High School.
And then, principal, Dalewood Junior High School,
principal at Chattanooga High School) director of educational
programs, Central Office; then Superintendent.
Q Dr. Henry, in the course of the testimony with
reference to the fact that the Chattanooga systen there is no
zoning in the high schools, have you considered the possibility
in a planning wanner of the possibility of zoning high schools?
A Yes.
Q To what kind of consideration have you and your
staff given to this?
A Wall, we 1 avs attest?ted to look at alternatives and
see how we could implement various plans and ideas and the
various problests that would arise in the situation.
Q Call your attention to the pupil locator waps
which have previously been introduced as exhibits.
In looking at these waps and directing your
attention to students, what kinds of problems would you identify,
now, that — that the administration would have to deal with
in the process of zoning a high school?
A Mall, of course, I guess you have a logistics
problem in determining the number of students to go to each
school, and actually determining where they are and localities
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in the community, but this is not insurmountable. It's done
other levels.
Probably in our interpretation in the various
plans and ideas that we have had the major problem would be
getting people to go — actually go there and in the plans that
we have we can ateign them but actually getting them to go there
is something else — problem being that we could foresee in the
future, having to change every year, having to constantly be
rezoning students to keep the facilities filled. And, to keep -
if we have two raoas, blacks and whites.
0 How, Z realise that this is purely in th<> planning
and discussion stage, but looking at the pupil
with regard to Howard High School, and X baliave this is the
tenth grade — just lost something —
THE COURTj (Interposing) Identify the maps es
you refer to them vy nimber.
BY MR. WITT:
Q Exhibit 26 is the Howard High School and Exhibit
25 is the Chattanooga High School amp.
What kinds of problems do you identify here
[visually with reference to creating a zone for Howard High
School?
Well, of course, you have to go into gerrymandering
lito a bit. It is, of course, can be done. You'd have to go
Henry - Direct g41
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into pockets of, as I think Mr. Willises refers to, isolation,
both white and black there, catting across various lines. And
Howard High there, foreseeable as long as that — we see —
probably take the Bast Lake community and, of course, if you
are going in the reverse, Chattanooga High School; or, if, say
Howard High School, going back to that — excuse ae — you'd get
probably the St. Kino cob—unity which is a possibility there of
white isolation.
These things, of course, we can design zones to take
care of this situation, but our problem is, will the people
remain in maintaining a school system. This is one of our
basic problems here.
Q All right. This would — would the —
A (Interposing) See the sanctuaries are so close —
excuse ae for adding to this, but it is so sssy for people in
St. Elmo right on the Georgia line — sanctuary there. They
can run south. In these other areas, they can simply, in Bast
Lake, you can go right over the ridge. I would say most of the
.
>0X1ses, of course, general statement, but most of the houses in
East Ridge are rental property. You can very easily go over
the ridge and rent another house and escape completely.
So, our problem is, we can almost lose an entire
school system. That may be exaggerated, but large numbers of
people of whites can actually run from the situation.
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Henry - Direct. 842
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0 All right. If you zoned south of the interstate
to Howard, this would create sow s additional capacity at Howard
would it not?
A Yes, it's possible.
Q The map indicates?
Henry - Direct 843
A Yes.
Q notice the number north of the freeway that are
blacks. Once you created this capacity, then would you haws
adequate capacity at Howard for the people from East Lake and
St. Elno?
A Ho, you'd have to actually — that would cut into
the upper part of what this shows for Howard High. You'd have
to take those away and to another section, probably into —
veil, from what's known as the Riverside section, you'd have
to cut into the Howard section to Chattanooga High School
is about all I can see. I an saying it can be done. There
ia — of course, there are problems.
Q All right. How, with regard to — now, in rezoning
Riverside, which is Exhibit Ho. 27, from visual inspection and
limiting your inspection to students, can you quickly identify
any particular decisions that would have to be Qr probl,
that would have to be made with reference to Riverside?
A well, there again, it's the seam thing. You are
taking — you'd have, in other words, you'd have to get into
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a white conwunity there which would be Highland Park area there
which would be the east side.
In other words, we could take the junior high schooijs
and zone thee into the high schools and effecting a black-white
situation there.
q From an inspection of the Chattanooga High School
nap that indicates — what would be the nearest whites available
or adjacent to Riverside that you could probably sene into
Riverside?
A Wall, you would just have to gerrymander around
Chattanooga High School. You'd have to go out into almost the
Highland Park, area, attempting even to fill Chattanooga High
School for that natter.
Q You naan, Riverside High?
A Riverside High. Z naan, peat — excuse ne — the
old Chattanooga High, Riverside. You'd have to go way pest it
in Highland Park area to pick up aoma people to get enough,
really.
q Does that indicate that if you took that step,
would that be a substantial desegregation of Riverside if you
took the hiyhlAiid ParJt area?
A No, you'd still — it would be difficult — it
still wouldn't be a large number. Of course, another way is
going back across the river to pick up some in the RiVermont
Henry - Direct 844
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area in that direction north of that; but rtil 1 j haven't jot
enough north of the river to fill up Chattanooga High School.
It would just be — you'd be passing one another the situation,
there. Logistically, it would be difficult — it would help
if we had another bridge.
Q All right. Mow, if you were going to resons —
rezone Chattanooga High School, where would the — generally the
zone lines, where would they extend?
A Well, generally, of course, you'd take probably all
north of the river and you'd have to go down into the coze of
the city around Riverside alaost to Howard to get any near
racial 50 percent for blades and whites. You'd go right up to
the door of Howard practically and on past Riverside.
Q In order to get —
A (Interposing) Yes.
0 (Continuing) — enough black students?
A Yes.
0 Now, if you did this, this would nean that the
whites that lived in St. Kleo could no longer go to Chattanooga
High School?
A No, they would be nore than likely in the Howard
zone.
Q This would also mean that the substantial number of
blacks that live in the area adjaoent to St. Elmo and area of
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Henry - Direct 945
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Trotter School, that they couldn't go to City High School?
Hftnry - Direct 846
A Mo, that's true.
Q It also naans that a substantial nunber of blacks
that live in the Orchard Knob area that have now chosen to go
to City high School would be zoned into Riverside?
A That's right; or to get blacks in nuabers into
Brainerd High School, you probably would have to go into that
section of Hardy and that area adjacent to Orchard Knob to get
anywhere near percentage racial —
Q (Interposing) In effect, if you zoned Chattanooga
High School, you would be denying to those who live south of
the river the opportunity of going to Chattanooga High School?
A fee, in scow areas, yes.
Q And, this would be reversing the decisions of blacks
and whites?
A Yes.
0 Under freedom of choice?
A Right.
Q Mow, let's lock at the Brainerd High School pupil
locator nap. Exhibit No. 24. what would zoning Brainerd High —
what kinds of problems would it present with reference to
students?
A Well, it's the same ones there, to get a black-white
ratio there, what we have been talking about, 50-50, you'd have
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to dip down into the core city there. You would also, to get,
of course, the m m thing into Riverside. You’d probably have
to go out into the Brainerd area and get s q m of those to take
into there.
q Xn other words, you visualise the necessity or at
least a consideration of the necessity of Moving Brainerd
High School sons into the central city?
A If that is — of course, depends on what you wean by
ambers and ratio. If the definition of unitary school system --
what it »s«n« — if we are going to — into the numbers and
ratio type business of close to 50-50 we have been talking about
yes, we'd have to do this.
q And, are you also saying that this would probably
mean thaw you would have to select sene students from the
Brainerd area — white students and sons them into Riverside?
A Yea, probably would.
q then, this would — this would change the choices
of white students in the East Lake area as I see it, is that
correct?
A Yes.
g And also, how would it affect the choices now being
exercised by the black students in the Orchard Knob area
of whom go to Brainerd and **oLie of who* go to City High and
same of whom go to Riverside? , , .t
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A Well, it might be looted upon very favorably by
some of the coaches at Brainerd if they get some of the River
side basketball players from Alton Park area; but they would
Inline^ lose their choice of attending, say, Riverside if they
were zoned to the Brainerd area or vice versa.
q Do you — what effect do you consider this would
have or might require the system to adopt with reference to the
students shown on Exhibit 24 from the Town of Bast Ridge?
A Hell, probably more than likely ws would have to
not allow any tuition students until we could see what the
situation was until we could adjust to the situation.
Q this would affect the white students that live
outside of the city to the east of the airport
A (Interposing) Yes.
q (Continuing) — would it not? Also affect the
students — white students living in Lookout Valley traveling
all the way from Lookout Valley to Brainerd, now, is this
correct?
A Yea.
q Do you — do you see any other problems new that
you can identify rather quickly with reference to students —
student assignments under the circumstances where zoning just
for the four high schools might be required?
A Well, ' ound to be many problems come up in relation|
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Henry - Direct 849
to the athletic programs and on many other things. People going
to schools and do you phase it oat in one year or two years or
three years? Bow do you effect the situation?
Q would you —
A (Interposing) The biggest problem I foresee after
all is what I -aid first is the business of getting people to
stay put.
Q What do you mean by that?
A Well, we — excuse the expression — we play the
numbers game, then we get it adjusted. I think we can and
then if many of them move during the year, then we have to come
in next year and go through the same process and then maybe the
next year until we can get a stable situation if we ever do.
Have to maintain the schools and have the numbers of students
in there and so forth.
Q Have we, as a school system, been able to maintain
a stable situation?
A As far as the numbers in black and white, we have
several examples of where we have attempted this in our zones —
Avondale, Hardy; whites have run from the situation, gad we
have gone from practically no whites to — well, integrated
situation of 50-50, desegregated situation at Hardy, and now
it's, as sgeeone expressed it, slipped over and gome the other
way to 90 percent black.
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Henry - Direct 850
Have this in the Avondale coeenmity end Hardy and
some other schools. Currently, I would say it's taking place in
the Bastdale so the problem is one of stability to me.
Q All right. What about Glenwood?
A Same thing has occurred there. It's gone from one
direction to the other.
Q Do you know of any techniques within the capacity
of the school system that have effectively stabilised the
racial composition of a school — not a school system, just a
school?
A Ho. Thought of several things, but acting under
the premise that we had prior to the Supreaw Court decision, we
weren't basing tilings on the basis — we weren't placing student
on a basis of rsce.
SO, we didn't.feel that we had the authority at
that time to do this. How, there may be some things that wa
could do but all these will cone to naught because the close
proximity of this sheltered situation in the county. It’s not
like Nashville or — or any of tbs other places. The haven
is so close here. It's no problem at all for people to leave.
In other words, we in the city accept the brunt
of this thing when the — well, I shouldn't say that; but
people so close to us are escaping it completely.
Q Dr. Henry, has the school system been losing
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Henry - Direct 051
population?
A Tee, over 1,000 last year.
Q was this after you had annexed two or three schools?
A Tea.
MR. WILLIAMS: Please the Court, I object to this.
This is irrelevant to any issue in this case. The Supreme Court
has specifically said that it's irrelevant in the Green case
and the Rowe case and as far as Z understand, he is saying he
has got problems. He would like for other people to share the
problems with him. I think that's a natural human —
THE WITNESS: (Interposing) Yes, sir.
MR. WIYTt Nell, under the Brown oase that continues
to remain to be the law. The Court — courts were directed to
consider problems related to administration. Ns are att map ting
to place before the Court these problems and to indicate the
reaction to this system to these problesm.
MR. WILLIAMS: But, have to be held to be not a
relevant problem, held to be one that the Court could not oonsidi
and in that light I object to it.
THE COURT: Well, is there some question before the
witness at this tins?
MR. WITT: I was asking him if we lose population.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I objected to that, and I move
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the Court to etrike all this testimony about whitaa fleeing,
because that, as X said, has been specifioally held to ba not
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question.
BY MR. WITT:
TUB COURT* All right. Well, state your next
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q This information was already in evidence in the
report. It’s only a question of clarifying the evidence, Exhib
3, very obvious.
How, with regard to — let's assume that you zone.
Do you see any problems in the high schools? Do you sea any
administrative problems relative to problems of ~ related to
faculty with reference to these schools?
A Of course, to have effective integration, I would
like to see at least a closeness of numbers to the student
population as in the faculty, bike to get it — in other words
50-50 — I'd like to have the faculty cloee to this. It would
be a massive job in moving teachers, but this is not insurmoua
I'd like to get on with it before August or something.
It's a difficult thing to do, have to move on with
it. It can be done. Of course, we may lose a few teachers,
but has been in other places.
q Would this require arbitrary assignment of teachers
A Yes. Probably lose their freedom of choice. I am
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sure they would.
Q Do you have any experience with the arbitrary
assignment of teachers?
A No.
0 Is there any experience in this system, to your
knowledge, with the arbitrary assignment of teachers?
A Well, yes. We have been accused of it by s o s b
principals, but I think there haws been cases — isolated cases
where we have had to; but all in all, we usually like a person
to go where they, of course, would be happiest and where they
can do the best job and discuss it with the principal to where
he wants these people and feels they can do the best job and
this sort of thing. It's kind of a team effort.
But, in sons isolated cases, we have had to place
people and in moat oases they did not like it and usually did
not remain in the situation very long.
Q Now, addressing your attention to the curriculum
of the courses offered at these four high schools, what kind
of changes would have to be effected there if any, if zoning
took place?
A Well, I think, of course, would be obligated to
make the — all the high schools comprehensive high schools
below the level, in other words, Kirkman, we would say, would
b e a technical school, one of its kind for the entire city.
Henry - Direct 853
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Then the other schools would have to have wary similar
curriculuas.
Q Do you have the space at drainerd to introduce a
vocational and a technical program?
A No.
q Substantially the same at Riverside and Howard?
A No, not at this time. Probably cause the expenditurs
of funds — . well? we'd have to go about a building program to
do this, probably City and Brainerd.
0 City and Brainerd? Mould you consider the advis
ability of terminating certain courses at different schools?
Henry - Direct 854
n a Well, we'd look at the situation first and probably
u for a year make a study of and see what we needed, really. We'd
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have to look at the situation.
Q Would —
A (Interposing) But, I can Imagine certain courses
would go out but you never are sure what will happen; but —
and, that is speaking within the concepts of fourth year Latin
and things like that. It's — you simply can't aay in advance
till you look at the situation and see what the demand is and
q (Interposing) Prom previous testimony given, I
understand that it's the policy to generally in high schools,
to — if there's enough interest in the class, to provide a
class of that?
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Henry - Direct 855
A And if we can find a teacher — certified teacher
in that area.
Q Would you be able to continue this kind of diversity
of offerings under a comprehensive high school situation?
A Well, in certain juntas, no. We have a hard time
now finding — well, there are many teachers in certain areas,
shop teachers, Latin teachers are practically unknown.
Well, there are certain specialised areas you simply
have a difficult time finding teachers. May just give up those
courses until we can find instructors; but it would be unfair
to a student in one school not being able to get this. We may
have to change our transfer policy for people wanting courses to
move around.
Q Would — what would you do with reference to
students who are now juniors in these high schools? Would you
require them to go to the new school or would you allow them
to stay in the school where they are presently located?
A Well, I don't really know. We have probably had
more success with phasing things out rather than doing it in
one massive job, but —
Q (Interposing) What do you mean by phasing?
A One year at a time or something like that. In other
words, allowing people to go ahead and graduate but, of course,
that would depend on what happens here.
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Henry - Direct 356
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Q Mould the phasing concept be possibly important with
regard to teachers?
A Yes. Of course, all this business would be extremely
complicated, require a lot of time and effort and study as to
how the student who is there would be affected by the teachers
ccxuing and going. It could be chaotic, year or three years,
whatever it took.
q You have any idea what this would be to the eligibility
requirements for athletic teams?
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A Yes, with a — has allowed these people still to
remain eligible if the School Board — if the Court -- zones go,
| they still maintain their eligibility, be some unhappy patrons;
but it can be taken care of.
q Do you see any other particular problems at the
moment on short notice that — that we should identify as
possible problems in this area?
A W'*ll, it’s going to cost money. I mean, that depend^
on what happens. Of course, that's normal, I guess, in this
situation.
MR. WITT: I have no further questions.
THE COURT: Let's see, do you wish to reserve your
cross examination until tomorrow since we have arrived at —
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Vary well, that will be
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Henry - Direct 857
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Anything further that counsel wish to take up with
tiie Court this afternoon before we recess court?
MR. WITT: Uo, Your Honor.
THE COURT: If not, let's recess court until 9*00
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FIFTH DAY Of TRIAL
Kay 13f 1971
asi
Thursday,
9:00 O'clock, A. M.
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(Thereupon, pursuant to adjournment on Wednesday,
May 12, 1971, court reconvened, and the following further
proceedings were had, to-vit:)
lu HR. WILLIAMS; Plaintiffs are ready.
11 MR. WITT: Defendant is ready, Your honor.
12 THE COURT: As I understood on yesterday, you had
12 completed your direct examination of this witness.
n MR. WITT: Yes, Your Honor.
ir> THE COURT: All right. You may cross examine.
16
17 liY MR. WILLIAMS:
CROSS EXAMINATION
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Q Like to hand the witness Dr. Henry — will you
examine the document you have just been handed and indicate
whether or not in your opinion that is a communication from the
Chattanooga Public Schools in 19687
A Yes, sir, it appears to be.
Q You will note that that appears to be a letter —
a copy of a letter sent by the then Superintendent, Dr. Charles
E. Martin, to Mr. Robert Sharp, Director of Equal Educational
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Opportunities in Hashville, Tennes
A A H right.
Q In your opinion, was that letter actually sent?
A Of course, I have no way of knowing; but I ass
that it was.
MR. WILLIAMS: All right. Like to introduce that
as the next exhibit.
THE COURT: What does Exhibit 66 consist of?
MR. WILLIAMS: It's a letter from Ur. Martin, the
then Superintendent, that’a Dr. Charles E. Martin, the then
Superintendent of the Chattanooga school system to the Director
of Equal Educational Opportunities of the State of Tennessee,
indicating his — indicating the then —
THE COURT* (Interposing) Well —
MR. WILLIAMS: (continuing) — existing state of
integration in the system.
MR. WITT* More accurately, it speaks for itself.
It's a typed letter that has Or. Martin's name typed at the —
at the end and Superintendent and there's no signature and no
indication — and we object to its introduction.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, that's a copy which was made -■
carbon copy which was sent to ne, Your Honor please. I assume
this letter was actually sent by Dr. Hartin.
THE COURT: Well, could this question not be
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resolved by agreement as to the authenticity of the document?
Suppose we have no proof of the authenticity.
BY_ MR. WILLIAMS?
Q I will simply ask. Or. Henry, will you examine the
records of the Chattanooga school system and see if you can
ascertain whether or not this letter was actually mailed?
Henry - Cross 860
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Yes.
What was that?
THE COURT: sixty-seven.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
67 for identification, Witness Mr.
Henry, and received in evidence.)
MR. WILLIAMS: May I inquire as to Exhibit 66?
THE COURT; Sixty-six was a report filed in
connection with the recross examination of the previous witness,
liY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q All right, sir.
THE COURT: Just a moment. It's the report of the
racial isolation in public schools.
MR. WILLIAMS: All right, sir.
BY MR.
2 :s Q
2 4 67 in
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All right, sir. Now, Doctor, referring to Exhibit
’The staff and Board of Education of Chattanooga
H I c: H A R O S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T N t P O R T f c H
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
uB&ry - Cross •si
public schools have become increasingly concerned relative to
the progress being made by the school system in the area of
meaningful desegregation. An examination of student racial
composition by attendance center indicates that freedom of
choice has served to perpetuate the status quo as exemplified
by the fact that 13 of the schools are not desegregated and
several others are desegregated to a very limited degree.'
Do you agree with that, sir?
A Yes, sir.
Q And then Dr. Martin goes on and sayst
"Progress has been made in staff desegregation and
through continued, concentrated efforts, total staff desegrega
tion will become a reality."
Do you agree as of that time, total staff desegrega
tion was not a reality?
A Was not a reality, but 1 agree in hia statement in
saying it will become a reality.
Q Some progress is being made and still is, but
looking at the racial composition of faculties in Chattanooga
today, would you agree that the schools are still racially
identifiable by faculty?
A Yes.
Q And, would you *>jr-e, Dr. Henry, that — that the
schools still in Chattanooga remain substantially segregated.
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sotuslly?
A Tss.
Q And, that actually that segregation never hoe ' een
actually elIninsted in the system since 1961-^2?
A hot in total. In several instances they have. It
has limited, of course —
Q (Interposing) You mean in boom schools it h**
been?
A That’s right.
Q But, in the system as a whole, it has not been?
A Mo.
Q Maw, Dr. Henry, with regard to choiaes, the
question of soning eliminating choices or changing the choices
of children, any time you establish zone lines, it changes
choices, doesn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q It requires people to attend according to the
zone lines and not according to their choices?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
0 All right, sir. Are you aware. Dr. henry, that
in general there is a present oversupply of
A in — yes, in certain areas undereupply and, of
course, in a few areas.
Q By areas, you are talking about
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Henry - Croes 883
(Interposing) Specialised areas of teaching.
What are acme of the areas where there is an under-
supply?
A well, in certain shop areas, certain languages.
q Vocational education?
A Tes, and another extrema — the language areas,
difficult in getting language teachers.
q Would you say those are pretty each the only two
areas where there is an undersupply at present?
A No, in certain science areas, physios teachers
practically i**x>ssible to find) chemistry teachers, they go
into industry — comparative pay, many areas in this direction,
science, business courses, certain individuals.
q All right. What are soma of the areas where there
is an oversupply of teachers?
A English, social studies, biology teachers, phys ed,
areas like this, home ec teachers.
q How about mathematics?
A It depends. Seme years, difficult. I don't think,
there * s any trend in that direction. sometimes it's hard to
find them and sometimes it's not. It varies.
Q All right. At least in the areas where there is
presently an oversupply, will a teacher be somewhat reluctant
to resign because he was reassigned? Would he find it
!
difficult to find another job?
A Would a teacher — yes, I would assume they would.
Q Tea. And, actually, the — your pay scale as
compared to other pay scales in Tennessee is very competitive,
isn't it?
A At the starting salary.
Q I was quite surprised. You are as good or better
than Nashville on your —
A {Interposing) Yes. That's the starting scale only.
0 In reference to — in reference to the 125 or so
rural and small school districts in Tennessee, though, you are
in a very competitive position. You have a much better pay
scale here, don't you?
A Well, we have had to do this in the last few years
to survive, because of the large cities in the surrounding close
area, Knoxville, Atlanta. Now, comparing with those cities,
we are not competitive.
Q You are not competitive with Knoxville and
lionry - Cross $ $ 4
Nashville?
A On the upper end of the scale. Of course, at the
beginning salary, we are; but —
0 (Interposing) You mean —
A (Continuing) — with Atlanta, I don't think we are.
we are in pretty good shape, I an not complaining about beginning
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Henry - Cross 8*5
salaries.
Q Does a teacher's contract in Chattanooga include
any statement of a definite named school in which the teacher
will teach?
A No.
Q As a natter of fact, the described State contract
precludes that, doesn't it?
A Yes. We don't actually have a written contract
as such.
Q You don ’ t?
A NO.
Q Teachers are employed and the Board has — the
school system has the authority to assign teachers wherever
they want?
A Yes.
q Have you checked the experience in other areas
with regard to teacher resignations in the face of desegrega
tion?
A Not too specifically, more than just hearsay —
just discussing things in conventions and things like this.
Q Here you aware of the experience in Nashville last
fall when teachers were integrated according to their ratio
in the system in each school?
A Not too much; more so in Memphis.
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Q All right. You are not aware that there were
practically no resignations in —
A (Interposing) No. But, I remember in Memphis
that there were.
Q Hell, were there any substantial numbers of resignaj-
tions in Memphis?
A This is the information I had from —
Q (Interposing) Was there any — do you know whether
or not there was any difficulty in replacing those teachers?
A Yes, according to Mr. Worlich --- Joe Her lick,
Secondary School Supervisor.
Q The Memphis school system still operating?
A Yes.
Q They were able to replace them, weren't they?
A Yes.
Q Would you say that a teacher who had such a racial
attitude, that that teacher would resign because of integration
of the races in the school would be one who would conform or
not conform to the educational principles set forth in the
Colmun Report?
A Probably not conform.
Q So, if from the standpoint of tha value of a
teacher in tl^ integration of the schools, you are probably
better off without a teacher who would resign in those
henry - Cross 866
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Henry - Cross 867
circumstances, aren't you?
A Yes.
Q Sir?
A Yes.
0 Dr. Henry, of course, you are familiar with the
Coleman Report?
A Yes.
Q And, with the racial isolation in the public school!,
are you not?
A Yes.
Q Yes, sir.- I want to refer to page — to a different
page than we had yesterday, page one hundred — H O , *nd read
just this brief paragraph to you:
a<Ihe facts in this report confirm that racial
isolation, whether or not sanctioned by law, damages Negro
students by adversely affecting both their attitudes and
achievement. Negro pupils attending predominantly Negro schools
tend to have lower educational aspirations, feel more frequently
that they are unable to control their own destinies, have a
poorer self-image, and have teachers with lower expectations
them similarly situated Negro students attending predominantly
white schools.*'
Do you agree with that?
A Yes, sir.
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Q How, than, one more point which I want to rand.
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202 — page 202, paragraph A, subparagraph (c), says this:
•In detexmining such discretionary matters as tha
location and size of schools, and tha boundaries of attendance
areas, the decisions of school officials nay serve either to
intensify or reduoe racial concentrations. Although there have
been only a few instances where purposeful segregation has been
judicially determined to exist in the North, apparently neutral
decisions by school officials in these areas frequently have
had the effect of reinforcing racial separation of students.1*
Would you agree with that, sir?
A Possibly; yes, sir.
Q Then, subparagraph (d):
"In southern and bordar cities, similar decisions
of school officials, combined with a high degree of residential
racial concentration and remnants of legally cosq>elled segrega
tion, have had the effect of perpetuating racial isolation in
the schools."
,() You agree with that, sir?
,, A Yes.
,, 0 And that is — that has been true in Chattanooga,
,t hasn't it, that kind of a situation has been part of the reason
for the continuing segregation in our schools here?
>r A I think this has been a part of it. I don't think
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Henry - Cross 869
it's the total picture, but it's been a part.
Q Yes. Now, then, in terms of — on the question of
selection, of sight selection of schools, you take the
Piney Woods School situation. The decision that was made to
locate that school in the heart of — right by a black housing
project is an illustration of just what they were talking
about in subparagraph 8(c), isn't it, here?
A Yes, it is f but —
Q (Interposing) And, similarly, the decision to
rebuild the Clifton Hills School right in the same location
Tdiere it was, in the heart of a white neighborhood, is another
illustration of that, isn't it?
A Illustration of many things, that is one of them.
q And, if those schools — I don't believe you were
Superintendent at the time either of those schools were —
A (Interposing) No.
Q (Continuing) — were built? But, if those
schools — if another site had been selected which was some
where between a white neighborhood — a white concentration
And a blact concentration, it is possible, then, that those
schools iaig.it have been integrated rather than segregated?
A It's possible so but in practically every time
that a housing project has been constructed, we haven't
practically asked to place school facilities to sc a cumodate
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the people within that housing project, which we do.
0 You were asked by the Planning commission?
A Of course, I wasn't here at that tins. I assume
this is so, but this has been one of the determining factors
over which probably we had no control. This is an assumption
1 am making.
0 You didn't have to — the school system didn't
have to locate the school there, did it? It could have
located the school somewhere else, couldn't it?
A They — in the planning stage in the Planning
Commission, it — well, of course, this is just the way I
perceive it. When the housing project is constructed, we
agree to place the school facilities where it would accommodate
the students. We don't have any control over it.
Q You don't have any control over the location of
the housing project?
A That's right.
q But, it w a « obvious — it was rather obvious
that that housing project in that black neighborhood was
going to be black, wasn't it?
A That's right. Any assumption would be that
during the time of the planning that this would be a black
school.
0 Yes, sir. And so then, being aware that this
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Henry - Cross 871
would be a black school if it was placed there, the school
aystea could hors made a decision to abandon proximity of
the school to the residential concentration and locate the
school scssewhere else, couldn't it?
A We could have, but it would haws created a
problem for the children especially in the Piney Woods area.
This is an isolated community.
Q Well, what problem are you talking — are you
talking about; a problem related to transportation, school
transportation?
A Yes.
Q Yes, all right. Ns are going to get to that —
well, maybe I will just — we will eons to that since we have
as l understand it, the school system, the Chattanooga sahool
system transports eleven hundred — twelve hundred thirty-
eight — twelve hundred thirty-eight children to schools and
they are out in these newly annexed areas, one out here on
the east by the airport and then two or three up here on the
northwest, is that correct?
A I thought it was 1,106 last month, but I am not
sure.
q it's 1,106 that are paid — that are supported
by the State?
■ A % :
A I am sorry.
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Cross 872
3 . Transporting 1,238, aren't you?
\ Okay.
3 Yss. And, what is the arrangement Cor their
transportation, sir?
h Well, we actually provide buses.
q All right, sir. You provide them through — well,
let me not get the cart ahead of the horse.
Who purchases the buses?
A The City school systeai.
q uow many buses do you have?
A Fourteen for that purpose. We have other buses
Cor carrying handicapped and so forth.
q Bow much did you pay for those buses?
A I would not know.
q All right, what kind of buses are they, sir?
\ They are regular school buses — different sixes.
3 You have some 60 capacity?
H I an not sure, but I would assume that we do.
3 right, sir. Well, were thoee buses purchasi
* That, I don't know. It came along with the
annexation, concurrent with the annexation of these areas.
Actually the Mayor asked us to do this — to transport these
people since they were more than a mile and a half away from
public conveyance and same rule would apply to them as applied
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Henry - Cross 873
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to the County students. So we assumed this.
q All right. And, you ere paid — do you know haw
much it costa per year to transport those children?
A I don't know. I know we are re — we are not
reimbursed. The County is reimbursed and we participate in
this with the County in — from the State funds, and then,
of course, locally wa have to add to it more than what the
State gives us for it.
q All right. As I understand it ~ as I understand
it, all have a contract with the County. You don't receive
the funds directly?
A That * s right.
q But, the County does receive a certain amount of
funds per pupil under the minimum foundation program as an
equalizing county school system?
A That's right.
Q That is correct, is it not?
A That is true. Me participate in the ratio of
students that we have, being in a part of Hamilton County.
Q Under contract with them?
A Right.
Q Now, I called the Office of the State Director
of Transportation yesterday and I was advised that the total
amount received in the current year is $314,943 fox a total>r.
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Henry - Cross •74
of twenty — for • total of 20,012 children.
Dividing those figures, a division of those figures
then results in the sue of approximately $15.74 per child
per year?
A Right.
Q That is received from the State for pupil
transportation. And, I understand that the total cost of
transportation per pupil in the county is approximately $42
per year?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
Q
that?
And, would yours be approximately the same as
A I would assume it is.
Q So that tha State then furnishes a little more
than one-third the cost of pupil transportation?
A Tea.
0 Now, I have also secured information from the
Director of Transportation to the effect that a State truck
type 60-passenger school bus could be secured. Did 1 say
a State? I didn't mean that.
A State.
Q Truck type 60-capacity school bus can be obtained
for $7,500. That sound about right to you?
A I have no way of knowing, but it eoande reasonable.
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Q A larger one, 72-capacity transit type can be
obtained for twelve — between twelve and thirteen thousand
dollars?
A Possible, I have a friend in Charlotte who is
buying buses for then. He can't find them. He is short
200 right now. So, when we say we can purchase thus — if
they are available, we can purchase than.
0 All right. And, sonatinas there's a little tine
lag on delivery of then, too?
A Yes.
Q
prices?
Ait, in any event, they are available at those
A Yes.
Q Has any authority or consideration been given by
the school system at all to the fact that its transportation
system nay need to be augmentive in connection with school
desegregation?
A We have considered it, yes. We thought of it.
G But, have made no plans whatsoever?
A Not as yet.
Q And, that is even though the school system was
aware of the decision of the Supreme Court in Alexander versus
Holmes back in 1969, wasn't it?
A Well, I an not aware of the legal oases Or anything
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876Henry - Cross
like this; but, we were operating under the principle, until
the Swann case, that we -- well, until just the other day,
really, when I cane on Board, I will put it this way, 1 have
only been here eight nonths in this position as current
Superintendent.
Q You were not aware of the decision of the Sixth
Circuit Court of Appeals in the Nashville case last December?
A Yea.
q That pointed out that the principle that they had
announced earlier in this case had been at the very least
undercut by subsequent decisions of the Suprabo Court?
A Well, I heard it, but, I mean, I don't know all tije
ratifications of it. My legal Bind is not that apt.
Q All right, sir. Well, you did have legal counsel(
tn o u g h, did you not?
A Yes.
q With regard to transfers and with particular
reference to Dr. Martin's letter, it is true that transfers
have a tendency to help perpetuate segregation when you are
using a zone system, do they not?
A It's possible. I imagine people with improper
attitudes could look to use this.
q Yes. And even though the conditions of transfer
way be on their face objective, if there are so many of there
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Henry - Cross 877
and they are designed in — in a way as to promote freedom of
transfer, then the effect is to help perpetuate segregation,
isn't it?
A Well, my understanding, of course, from the very
beginning is that most of these — and I have been looking at
them — over the years have evolved long before we even con
sidered black and white situation, and they were just evolved
because of sickness that exists and if things, of course, we
maybe should have altered them along the way. And, most of
them just grew like topsy. That's the reason we have so many.
Q The zoning lines just grew like topsy, grew like
topsy, too?
A Yes, they did.
q But, the effect of maintaining the 3ame zone lines
after desegregation that you had before desegregation was to
perpetuate segregation, wasn't it, was to keep the same
segregation that you had?
A Well, it wasn't intended but in fact it did.
q That was the effect of it?
A Yes.
Q And, that has also been the effect of freedom of
choice in the high schools, although aside from any question
of men's rare or bad intent that was the effect of it?
A De facto — de facto, that's it. I mean, this is
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actually tho fact, it did that. I am not —
Q (Interposing) I a m saying that was the effect of
it?
A Tea.
Q And, actually you can't call it de facto because
legal segregation was never abolished except in a neutral way?
In other words, the segregation was created by law, wasn't itl
A Yes.
q All right. How, that segregation that was createc
by law has never been removed, has it?
Henry - Cross 878
A
Q
A
side.
Q
A
Except in certain specific schools.
All right. And, what are those schools?
Avondale, Glenwood, Hardy, Eastdale, East — Sunnjf-
Just a few schools where the school population --
(Interposing) As the population tends to change,
it seems to integrate.
Q All right, sir. Now, then, with regard to xoning,
I think what you indicated with regard to the soning of the
high schools was basically this; That up north here we have
white residential concentration, don't we, up in the northwest}?
A Pockets of blacks, but —
Q (Interposing) And, out in the east we have a
white residential concentration with a few pockets of blacks?
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Henry - Cross 879
A Yes.
Q In the Brainerd area?
A Right.
Q And, then, down in the southeast we have a concen
tration of vbitfti with another snail concentration over on
the soutliwest in the Lookout area?
A That’s true.
Q And, what you were saying with regard to the zoning
of the high schools is that in order to do that, a zone would
have to be drawn — the zones would have to be drawn so as to
pick up some of these blacks in the core area to go to the
Chattanooga High in the northwest; also to pick up soiao of
these blacks in the core area to go to Brainerd?
A That's right.
Q In the east? Perhaps there are enough blacks and
whites down in the southern area to take care of the situation
with regard to Howard, I an not sure about that.
A I doubt it seriously. You probably have to go
out to these suburb areas.
0 Might have to extend that out a little towards
Brainerd?
A Right.
Q And then you'd have to come into the Brainerd
> r . x.
area to get some students for Riverside?
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A R i v e r s i d e , y e s .
Q S o m e w h i t e s t u d e n t s f o r R i v e r s i d e ?
A T h a t ' s r i g h t .
0 T h a t i s — t h a t i s s i m p l y a m a t t e r o f d r a w i n g
z o n e l i n e s t o e l i m i n a t e r a c i a l s e g r e g a t i o n i n t h e s c h o o l s ?
A R i g h t .
Q A n d , t h a t i s a m a t t e r w i t h w h i c h — a n a d m i n i s t r a
t i v e m a t t e r w i t h w h i c h s c h o o l o f f i c i a l s a r e f a m i l i a r , t h e
d r a w i n g o f z o n e l i n e s ?
A Y e s .
Q A n d , I b e l i e v e y o u i n d i c a t e d y e s t e r d a y t h a t y o u
c o u l d t a k e c a r e o f i t . W h a t y o u n e e d e d t o d o w a s h a v e t h e
d i r e c t i v e a n d g e t o n w i t h t h e j o b , i s t h a t i t ?
A T h a t ' s r i g h t .
Q A n d , t h e s a m e t i l i n g i s t r u e w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e
t e a c h e r s t h a t t h e y c a n b e r e a s s i g n e d a n d a l l t h a t n e e d s t o b e
d o n e i 3 j u s t g e t o n w i t h t h e j o b ?
A W e l l , l i t t l e m o r e c o m p l e x t h a n t h a t ; b u t , m a n y
p r o b l e m s i n a s s i g n i n g t e a c h e r s . W e h a v e , 1 a s s u m e , t o b e t h i s
m a y n o t b e a s f a c t u a l a s I a s s u m e b u t t h e p e r s o n h e r e , D r .
M a r t i n h a s b e e n m e n t i o n e d , t o l d m e p e r s o n a l l y w h e n h e w a s
S u p e r i n t e n d e n t — b e e n a b o u t t h r e e y e a r s a g o — t h a t w e w e r e
c o m m i t t e d a s a s y s t e m t o e m p l o y t e a c h e r s a c r o s s r a c i a l l i n e s ,
m i n o r i t y - m a j o r i t y , a n d b a c k a n d f o r t h u n t i l we r e a c h e d a 50-50
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Henry - Cross 681
percent ratio in every school.
I was talking to him about — at City High I was
principal then. I was trying to get a certain teacher. He
says, "Ho, you can't have them. You can stake your choice but
it has to be of a black teacher."
This I assumed we have been operating under all
this time.
Q All right.
A But, I don't know this to be the —
Q (Interposing) But, you haven't actually assigned
them on that basis and they could be assigned on that basis,
couldn’t they?
A Well, I assume that we were doing this for some
time.
0 But, you know now that you didn't when you look
at it and see you don't have anything like nonracial teacher
assignments?
A Let's say they didn't do as good a job as I
assumed they would have, but there have been problems. It
hasn't been that simple.
There's one thing I'd like to add to this, if you
don't mind. We have learned statistically — I may be off a
little bit — in crossing these racial lines, we just simply
have done a poor job of orientation, because it's taken — we
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Henry - Cross 882
have liad to hire three teachers to get one to stay on the
job and cross racial jobs. That's our fault. We attempt to
alleviate this. Dr. Houston Conley got a program going now
where we are working with teachers to help this situation,
across racial lines, and people to get along and to learn to
work together.
And, we have been, of course, no question about it,
if we move people in schools against their will or whatever,
however you want to express it, we could do this almost
immediately; but we have been moving slowly in this process
on a voluntary basis of teachers that are hired.
In other words, the new teacher coming in is told
right away that, "Tou will have to be placed across racial
lines.H This is my assumption that this is going on in the
personnel department.
g Let me ask you two things about this.
A Yes.
Q Jn the first place, the approach to teacher
desegregation has been one of trying to persuade teachers to
voluntarily teach across racial lines?
A That's the ones existing in the staff. Now, the
new ones, we don't, new ones coming in.
Q Hut, the second point is with regard to — you
mentioned orientation.
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A Excuse me. There’s one point I think is very
important is that we haven't held true to this all along in
this business of where teachers are hard to get in certain
areas like a Latin teacher is wanted at a certain school. We
have had to, in other words, it's not as simple as you think.
Q When you were confronted with the Howard — with
the Howard-River — not you, because you weren't Super in tendenft
at the time — but when the system was confronted with the
Howard-Riverside situation where they had to divide up black
teachers and those were all primarily all black teachers,
weren’t they?
Henry - Cross 833
Q
A
hat.
Q
A
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A
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A
Yes.
What method did they use then?
What 1 heard in court, they pulled them out of the
Pulled them out of the hat?
Right.
They didn't ask them about it, did they?
That's true.
That worked out all right, didn't it?
Yes.
Q Is there any reason why same objective method
like that can't work out all right with regard to white
teachers ao well as black teachers?
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A No.
(j So that could be used, couldn't it?
A Yes. Of course, there are always conplexities
to it, certain teachers in certain directions, that you can't
find chemistry or a physics teacher that you can't get but
that's an exception, Z mean.
Q I want to read to you fro*a page 205 of racial
isolation, paragraph six, where it says:
"Factors contributing to successful school desegrs
gation include the exercise of strong leadership by State and
local officials to help implement desegregation, the involve
ment of all schools in the community, the desegregation of
classes within the segregated schools, steps to avoid the
possibility of interracial friction, and the provision of
remedial assistance to children who need it."
I are sure you agree with that, don't you, Doctor?
A That's right.
Q And those principles have to be applied here with
regard to school desegregation, with regard to teacher
integration, don't they?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
Q Isn't that true, Doctor —
A (Interposing) Yes.
Q (Continuing) — Henry? And, state to the Court
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if you will what is meant by the importance of involvement
of all schools in school desegregation as to both pupils and
faculty. Does that have any relation to this white flight
thing you were talking about yesterday?
A The involvement of schools?
Q The involvement of each and every school in the
system with substantial integration of both its faculty and
its student body, does that have any stabilising influence?
A Yes, I think if you actually involved every one,
you h.?ve a better chance for acceptance, especially if you
go into the community as well as the schools on a broader
base of involvement and understanding and in the planning of
the situation and within the law and within the guidelines
set by the Court, if we know what we are supposed to do. And,
I think — I don't think we can allow one section over here
to escape it or something like this. I think it should be a
total involvement of all schools.
Q And that tends — have you read the Supreme
Court's recent decision in the Swann case?
A Yes.
0 And that tends to support the Supreme Court1s
acceptance of ratios as a starting point in school desegregation
doesn't it?
A If these —
Henry - Cross 885
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Henry - Cross 8 8 6
Q (Interposing) Ratios of students according to the
their proportion in the community environment and ratios of
teachers?
A I don't know — well, I guess we could say it
supports it, but it's just one alternative, it's one way.
Q As a matter of fact, it's the most feasible
alternative in a community like this, isn’t it. Dr. Henry?
A Probably the most obvious, yes.
Q With regard to teachers, I think you indicated
yesterday that you felt that so far as possible, teachers
should be assigned to each school in proportion — should be
employed and assigned to each school ideally in proportion to
the racial ratio of the students in that school?
A This is what we have been committed to for same
tine.
Q And, to that end that you have directed your
recruitment program of black teachers, is that correct?
A I haven't actually directed it. I assume we were
working under this for some time from listening yesterday. I
don't know whether we were or not, but I assumed that ue had
that we were.
0 Well, listening yesterday didn't sound like you'd
had too much success, did it?
A Poor communication, I think.
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Henry - Cross 887
Q Sir?
A Maybe it was poor communication, I don't know.
Q All right, sir. Dr. Henry, should a desegregation
plan contain some provision which directed towards the preven
tion of the demotion of black teachers?
A Yes, I guess if it felt that it's necessary.
Q Well, you are familiar to sane extent with the
literature, are you not?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
Q And I take it you have heard about some of the
teacher discharge cases that have been tried in the State?
A San Francisco right now.
q Yes. And, you are — are you likewise familiar
with the fact that frequently when faculties are integrated,
the tendency on the part of the whites is to want to assume
the superior positions and have the black teachers assume the
inferior positions?
A Very familiar with this.
Q There has to be some protection afforded against
that, does there not?
A I think history in Chattanooga, though, stands
up with this system, though, not going in this direction.
I can see the need.
(j Chattanooga shows that you have been doing better
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than same of the others, I will agree to that.
A Yes, okay.
Q But, that kind of a provision is —
A (Interposing) I can see —
Q (Continuing) -- required, isn't it?
A You may not have those same people on the Board as
you have now. Possibility I can see the need for protection.
Q And, also, in regard to the teachers — in regard
to the teacher recruiting matter, there could be an attrition
of black teachers. That has been known to happen, also, withcjut
some provision requiring the recruitment of black teachers?
A Of course, it hasn't been a problem here, but I
can see where it could possibly be.
Q Now, then. Dr. Henry, would you agree that the
educational environment of every child ought to reflect, insofar
as possible, the ethnic composition of the cossounity in which
he is expected to live and work?
A Yes.
Q And to the extent, then, that the Chattanooga
schools remain segregated, that educational objective is beinc
defeated, isn’t it?
A That's right.
Q Would you agree, Dr. Henry, that speea is of
importance in eliminating the educational disadvantage arisinc
Henry - Cross 888
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from racial isolation?
A Nell, I'd say controlled speed, I'd want success
more than anything else in the endeavor. I would not want to
duplicate sene failures that have existed in other cities.
Q All right. But, you do agree that every — agree
with the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals who have finally said
in the Nashville case that every day of educational disadvantage
to which a child is subjected constitutes an irreparable loss.
You would agree with that?
A That's true, but still don't want to go through
the phase of resegregation again.
0 Of course, when you say you don't want to go
through that phase, you are talking about — you are talking
about administrative problems, aren't you?
A Yes. Well —
Q (Interposing) And, the — is the system better
equipped to handle administrative problems or the individual
child?
A The system.
MB. WILLIAMS; Thank you.
THE COURT: Dr. Henry, how long has the Chattanooga
3Chool system been busing students?
THE WITNESS: Since the Spring Valley area was
annexed. The Mayor asked us to do it, and I may be wrong, but
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I think the first year the City provided tne money for it.
I think we have had to assume this later on.
THE COURT: How does that work, for example, take
the Spring Valley area. Where do you bus those students to?
THE WITNESSi They go to — well, possibility of
going to Normal Park, G. Russell Brown, Kirkman. City, River
side, in that area.
THE COURT: Well, how — suppose you had a student
out in Spring Valley that wanted to go to Brainerd High School
Would you bus the student out to Brainerd High?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: How do you control that situation?
THE WITNESS: Well, of course, they are zoned at
the elementary level. At the high school level, they have to
provide their own transportation.
THE COURT: You do not bus any high school students?
THE WITNESS: Yes, but they have a choice. They
can go to City High, Riverside, or Kirkman.
THE COURT: Well, then, they are zoned for high
school?
THE WITNESS: Well, they are zoned as far as
transportation is concerned.
THE COURT: Well, is that a written policy or
how do you work that kind of policy?
Henry - Cross 890
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Henry - Cross 891
THE WITNESS: No, I don't think it's written.
It's just simply the feasibility of transportation and what
we can do. We have never had anyone actually ask to go to
Brainerd. I imagine if they did, we 'would.
THE COURT: You would bus them?
THE WITNESS: Well —
THE COURT: (Interposing) You would bus a student
right by City High and right by Riverside and go all the way
out to Brainerd?
THE WITNESS; It's not too feasible, but I imagine
if we were called upon.
THE COURT: What is the justification for busing
your students?
THE WITNESS: Well, they live more than a mile
and a half away from public transportation. That's the State
figure.
t h e COURT: You are required to do that?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Any student lives more than a mile
and a half away?
THE WITNESS: That's — the State will reimburse
you funds under the Minimum Foundation Program if a student
lives more than a mile and a half away froo public transporta
tion.
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Henry - Cross 892
THE COURT: All right.
Was this the policy that was established by the
School Board?
THE WITNESS: Well, we are conforming to the wishejs
of the Mayor in the annexation.
THE COURT: Regardless of the Mayor, it is the
School Board's responsibility to make these decisions, isn't
it?
THE WITNESS: (witness moves head up and down.)
THE COURT: Did they adopt this policy of busing
students as you have described it?
THE WITNESS: I am not sure that they actually
adopted the policy. I assume they did. I wasn't on the
Board then, but I assumed that they did.
THE COURT: Well —
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITT:
Q Dr. Henry, direct your attention to Exhibit No.
67. Would you please read the third paragraph?
A "The Chattanooga Board of Education recently
authorized the request for assistance from the United States
Office of Education and the State Department of Education in
the identification of desegregation techniques which would
*;*«• •.*. r> / J •- •4be most helpful to this school system.*
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Henry - Redirect 893
q All right. Would you read the next paragraph?
A “On behalf of the Chattanooga public schools and
the Board of Education, I am requesting the assistance of the
personnel and services from the Equal Educational Opportunitys
Program, State Department of Education, in giving direction
for planning desegregation of Chattanooga public schools."
Q That's — and the date of this letter is Deceeber
the 24th, 1968, is that correct?
A Tea, sir.
q Would you consider this an affirmative step on th<
part of the school system to meet the problems in connection
with desegregation?
A Yes, I would.
q d o you know what happened to this program?
A No, I do not.
q Are you aware of the person in the system that
could describe for the Court the response of Mr. Sharp to thin
letter and the corresponding circumstances and whatever this
may have accomplished?
A Mr. Taylor or Mrs. Nardo. Mrs. Mardo probably
would be familiar with it.
0 All right, sir. When did Br. Martin resign from
the City school system as Superintendent, do you recall?
A Was before Dr. Lawrie. Dr. hawrie was 15 months,
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and I have been eight months, so I am not sure. It must be
about three years ago. I am not certain of the date.
Q Or. Henry, do you know any attempt* to, in the
City system, to stabilize the racial population of any school?
A Well, of course, ve have been operating under the
principle of not placing students on the basis of race, lie
have, of course, looking at the situation we had to make
decisions several times whether to leave black a<kainistrators
or place black administrators or white administrators according
to how it would affect people moving out of the community.
I know in the Hardy situation we thought long and
hard before placing a black principal there. Would it cause
s o m e of the whites to move or to run or would they stay in thils
situation? And this we also had to think about in the Avondalja
area and consciously tried to — to make the right decision
which would help people to stay in the community and to main
tain this equality o r racial basis that we had in those
schools. This is where we were having success and we didn't
want to l o s e it.
Q Have —
A (Interposing) And, we had — excuse me. We had
demands of the community in that direction, also. The demands
of the black community for black principals and held off as
long as we could because we had this fear in our minds that
Henry - Redirect 894
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the whites would leave.
Henry - Redirect. 895
q Do you — do you recall the initial Title IV
program at the Avondale School? Were you £amiliar with this
at all or fact that it took place?
A Heard about it, yea, but. I am not familiar with
it.
q Have any — has any effort been made to assign
black assistant principals to schools that are substantially
white?
A Yes. This was another policy we were operating
under, to get black administration in all-white schools, white
administration in all-black schools, and guidance personnel
and any other direction that we possibly could.
q All right. In attempting to carry out this stated
goal, what kinds of problems do you run into in trying to
desegregate the administrative staff?
A Well, of course, you have difficulty in getting
*
people to go at times. Identifying people that will go and
getting people to stay there once they get there. We have,
of course, attitudes of people. It’s just a situation. The
environment, learning to get along with one another, it’s
just something that takes time. Some work out, acme don't.
And, anyway, we have had to replace some, and it’n
*
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Q Is any attempt being made to help individual
teachers and administration change their attitudes with
reference to their responsibilities?
A Yes, we have had workshops and institutes and
working with various staffs — Dr. Bond's group, and we have
had the Gleaser people in here for the workshop.
We had Houston Conley's class, working with
teachers in things. This has been on our mind quite a bit,
attempting to do somattEfcog on the basis of the staff. We
feel we have had progress in this direction. Still have a lonfo
ways to go, but with the staff we have been working diligently,
Q Is this effort something of recent origin?
A Ho. I think all along we have, of course I can't
I don't know too much back past my eight months, but I can
remember the situation, Avondale study there, and what went
on at Hardy and the accusations we were doing sensitivity
training there; but it was basically in this direction,
attempting to get successful desegregation. We felt the
answer wasn't staff. This had to come first.
Q When you use the word "successful desegregation,"
would you mind describing in some detail what you am an by
this when you use this expression?
A Well, like to refer to Mr. McCallie's statement
. • if. »*•■>' V . : .
yesterday, where people are accepted as individuals in a
Henry - Redirect 896
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Henry - Redirect *97
situation, where they are accepted socially, where they feel
that they are part of the school and the prog ran, and where
they can successfully compote and achieve in the situation.
0 All right. In a classroom of thirty pupils of —
composed of both black students and white students, if the
teacher was there against his or her will, would this be a
factor contributing to the kind of desegregation you are
talking about or a factor mitigating against the kind of
segregation you are talking about?
A Well, of course, that’s up to the individual.
It could be against it. I think it would be on the attitude
of the individual teacher. It could create quite e problem,
of course.
q would it be better to have a teacher that desired
to be there?
A I think so.
q would this increase the probability of successful
experience?
A I am sure it would.
q is this the reason you are trying to avoid the
arbitrary assignment?
A Yes, it is.
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to leading* Your Honor.
MR. WITT: All right.
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Ilenry - Redirect
BY MR. WITT:
890
q Now, did the school system make an application
for federal funds for the emergency desegregation funds last
year?
A
Q
A
Yes, we did.
What was the purpose of this request?
well, we were looking for — we were trying to
set up a program to aid educating staff members across desegrsj-
gation — I mean, across racial lines to — to achieve
successful desegregation in the Hardy area, model cities
area there, in the schools in that direction primarily
staff — staff training, working on attitudes within the
existing schools.
q All right. Could you compete with the rural
school systems in Teniaessee for new teaching personnel?
A outside of Hamilton County, I'd say no.
q And what is this reason?
A Well, I don't know, your big cities are the ones
we usually compete for, especially in those hard-to-get areas
teachers that are difficult to find.
q Then, would —
A (Interposing) Salary, of course, being a motive.
q Would the pay scale in the rural area have any
relationship to your pay scale and your ability to attract
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teachers?
A No. Your pay scale is considerably higher.
Q Dr. Henry, does the City school system operate
under a teacher tenure law?
A Yes.
Q would you describe your understanding of how this
law operates?
lienry - Redirect 899
A Well, it came in effect in 1935. It precedes our
all-private act for our school system. Its 2-year probationaxjy
period is the basic part of it.
It is extremely difficult, of course, to remove a
teacher after his probationary period. Of course, I don't
remember the entire portion of it, but the elements of it,
basically, is a 2-year probationary period.
0 Do you know some of the causes that would support
termination of employment after the probationary period —
A (Interposing) Well —
U (Continuing) — is completed?
A Insubordination, immoral acts, things in this
direction. It's very difficult to prove or — incompetency,
1 think, is the isost difficult to prove.
Q Do you know of any teacher since, in your memory,
since you have been in the system since 1951 whose employment
has been terminated by the School Board at the School Board's
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wish after the probationary period?
A Successfully?
Q Successfully.
A NO.
Q Mr. Williams made references to experiences in
(Memphis and Nashville. Do you believe that the experience
in Memphis is determinative of what should be dime in Chatta
nooga in regard to desegregation?
A Not completely, no.
Q Are the two cities different?
A Very touch so.
Q Is Nashville the same as Chattanooga?
A Different set of circumstances.
q Do you know in Memphis when they replaced the
teachers that were referred to in your cross, were these
qualified teachers?
A I assume they were, I do not know.
Q When in answering his question where with regard
to our situation, were you assuming the teachers would be
qualified?
Henry - Redirect 900
A In — what now, excuse me?
q When you speak of replacing teachers, do you mean
replacing teachers that are qualified teachers or teachers
unqualified, or do you draw a distinction?
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Henry - Redirect ,U,L
A Well, ox course, as Mr. James says, we attempt to
got qualified teachers at all times; but this isn’t always
so. That's —
q (Interposing) Now, with reference to the decision
to locate the Piney Woods School, is it important that students
be safe as they travel from their homes to school?
A Yes.
q Is it important that they waste as little time
as possible in removing themselves from their home and going to
school?
A I think so.
q Are these — does the School Board take should
a School Board take these kinds of factors into consideration,'
A I think they should.
q If a school — would you take these kinds of
the3e kinds of criteria into consideration in your recoramenda
tion?
A I think I'd have to.
y What would you think of a Superintendent that
ignored these kinds of --
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) Oh, I object to
that, if Your Honor please. That's isnaterial.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WILLIAMS: And irrelevant.
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BY MR. WITT:
q Approximately how many students are there in the
City school system now?
A About twenty-five thousand, twenty-four, twenty-
five thousand.
q And, how many are bused?
A Eleven hundred.
q h o w many are — how many that are bused are
reimbursed by the State?
A Well, this is the thousand? I think there’s a
little more than that that are bused, around twelve hundred,
according to Senator Williams.
q What percentage is that — is the total of the
total?
A You mean one and twenty-five? Yea, a low
percentage.
q Are you preparing a budget at the present time?
A Yes, we are in the middle of budget preparation.
q To what governmental body do you present that
budget initially?
A Well, to our own School Board first and then to
the City Conaission — government body would be the City
Conimission, yes.
0 Approximately how much of City funds exclusive
902
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Henry - Redirect 903
of funds from other sources are contributed by the City to
the City school system, approximately?
A I am not exactly sure. The — I ’d be afraid to
say. I am not —
0 (Interposing) In the budgetary planning that's
being conducted at the present time?
A Excuse Die of my ineptness, but tills is my initial
budget I am making. I am not too familiar with it. I know
a large portion of our money does come from the State salary
allocations and things, probably largest part.
Q You will be asking the City Commission for funds
to operate the school?
A Yes, because we staff much beyond what the State
will allow. In other words, we hire teachers, many of them
beyond what we get from minimum foundation for —
q (Interposing) So, in your budget presentation,
you are attempting to persuade the City Cossaission, is that
correct?
A Yes.
Q Do you attempt to cooperate with the Mayor and
the City Commission?
A Yes.
Q Is it important to the welfare of the City system
that you do this?
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A Very much 3 0 .
q Are you concerned personally about the fact that
3one students are being transported in the City system and
some are not?
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to that, if Your Honor
please. I don't think that’s relevant.
THE COURT: I don't see necessarily how it would
be relevant, would it, Mr. Witt?
MR. WITT: Yes, if he is sufficiently concerned.
THE COURT: All right.
THF. WITNESS: Yes. We didn’t actually ask for
this in the beginning and it’s something that we have had to
assume and it is an expense item that, of course, I may be
wrong in this. I think the Mayor paid for it the first year,
we had to assume it since then. We'd like to get out from
under this burden. It’s something we don't want.
BY MR. WITT:
q Dr. Henry, I am not sure that you are familiar
with the details of this question, but since Mr. Williams
covered it on cross, I will ask you what is your understanding
of the circumstances under which the State Department of
Education will reimburse a local school system for transporta
tion?
A Well, I think — I mean, the appropriations are
Henry - Redirect SU4
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only made to the County government on the basis their -- that
they be more than a mile and a half away from public transporta
tion.
q All right. Is it your — what is your under
standing, then, of this regulation if you bus a student who
is a half a mile?
A Then you would pay for everything, no reimbursemer t.
q No reimbursement?
**•
A N O .
q What if you transported a student that was within
a half mile of school to a school five miles away, would ther«
be any reimbursement as you understand?
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to that, if Your Honor
please, because that question includes a subjective factor
as to what is — his school.
THE COURT: Imagine this is just a question of
law, is it not? Whatever this State law provides? I think
it provides that he understands and knows what the State law
is.
MR. WITT: May it please the Court, I am trying
to correct some impressions that have been made that are
incorrect.
THE COURT: This, I assume, would be a matter of
State law, would it not?
Henry - Redirect
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Henry - Redirect 906
MR. WITT: Yea.
THE COURT: Normally a witness doesn't testify as
to law. If he knows what the State law is, he can say and
then if that turns out to be incorrect, the attorneys can
correct the record on it.
MR. WITT: Well, Dr. Henry is the chief administra
tive official of the City school system. It's his legal
r e a p o n a ibility and solely his responsibility to identify these
kinds of problems, make a decision, whether or not he is
required to bring these with a recommendation to the Hoard of
Education because it has to do with the use of funds.
THE COURT: Yes, but regardless of his duties, he
couldn't change the State law — beyond his responsibility
in that regard.
MR. WITT: I am 3orry if I am inept in my presents
tion.
THE COURT: State your question. Lst me ,
perhaps we are not understanding your opposition.
BY MR. WITT:
Q We are talking — Dr. Henry, if you as the super
intendent were required to take students who live within a
mile a:.d a half of the school to a school more than a mile and
a half away from their homes, under your understanding of the
State law, would the local school system be reimbursed for that
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Henry - Redirect
transportation coat?
907
MS. WILLIAMS: I object to that.
THE WITNESS: No.
MR. WILLIAMS: Because his understanding of the
State law is irrelevant, if Your Honor please. It eay or May
not be correct and —
MR. WITT: (Interposing) May it please the Court,
Dr. Henry acts upon his interpretations of the State law every
day.
THE COURT: Well, he stated his opinion of the
law. The attorneys can place in the record exactly what the
law is.
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, if I could add one point
to the interpretation here I think we are missing is that
public transportation is not provided within a mile and a half
of the child’s home, not related of the school where it’s going,
it's public transportation. In other words, in the City of
Chattanooga if we were to lose our _>»il>lic transportation, then
we would be providing transportation for everyone.
BY MR. WITT:
q Now, I believe also on cross examlnation it was
identified or the question to you assumed that the cost per
pupil state-wide was $42 per pupil?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
Henry Redirect 90S
Q Assuming —
A (Interposing) County-wide, I think.
0 County-wide?
A This was —
Q (Interposing) State-wide?
A Well, now, state-wide, it does vary according to
distances and things, but I assume this from Senator Williams
stated that he got from Nashville.
MR. WILLIAMS: That's the date that I got from the
statistical report, the State statistical report.
MR. WITTi For county system?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. WITT: All right.
BY MR. WITT:
Q Apply that to the City system. If they — all of
the students that lived a mile and a half away?
A Tines 25,000, times this.
Q Mow —
A (Interposing) Several hundred thousand dollars.
Q You know how lMany buses would be needed?
A Divide this by sixty.
THE COURT: Well, really, ia that a relevant
item? I mean, you are talking about transporting all 25,000
students, is that —
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Henry - Redirect
TUB WITNESS: (Interposing) I mean assumption these.
THE COURT: Alice in Wonderland speculation.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY HR. WITT:
0 In answer to a question with reference to soiling,
Nr. williams, he asked you if zoning wasn't merely a matter
of — simply a matter of administrative policy. In deciding
upon zones, would you give any thought to reaction of the
students to being zoned?
MR. WILLIAMS: Oh, I object to that, if Your Honor
please. That's — that's not a relevant issue here. If the
Court or the school administration was required to give naught
to reaction of each individual student as to whether he would
be zoned, then it would be impossible to run the school system.
THE COURT: Perhaps I didn't understand your
question. State your question again.
BY MR. WITT:
Q Mr. Williams asked you if rezoning of the high
schools would not be simply a matter of drawing the lines?
A I don't think anything is ever really simple.
Complex as this situation, there are many factors, variables,
of course. There are administrative problems that do sxist
and would exist.
For instance, all our programs, our cosjpensatory
»0 t
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education programs basically in the disadvantaged areas, we'd
probably have to revamp all of them and identifying the school*
get the money — would create quite a problem especially right
here at budget time.
q d o you, in performing your job for the people of
the community, do you consider their wishes?
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to that, if Tour Honor
please, as irrelevant here.
MR. WITT*. I don't see how that could possibly be
irrelevant. . These are the people to whom he la responsible.
MR. WILLIAMS: well, the Supreme Court has said,
if Tour Honor please, that community hostility is irrelevant
in a case of this nature and it has reiterated that several
times.
MR. WITT: May it pleass the Court
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) And then reiterated
it in Monroe.
THE COURT: I think the fact that someone may or
may not desire to comply with the law would not be grounds
for varying that law, would it, Mr. Witt?
MR. WITT* I admit that, making no question.
THE COURT: Let's proceed on that basis, then.
MR. WITT: But, when we examine the kind of
problems that Dr. Henry and the Board have to address themselvds
910
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to, it is — the record would be incomplete if their concept of
their role to the constituency were ignored, end Z an merely
trying to point out that this is their responsibility — this
is their legal responsibility. It's not their sole legal
responsibility, but certainly this is their constituency.
HR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, I respect
fully submit that their responsibility is to — ultimate
responsibility is to comply with the Constitution and the
Supreme Court has said these matters are irrelevant and it's
therefore inadmissible.
MR. WITP: May it please the Court, we have newer
denied the responsibility of this City school system to comply
with the Supresm Court — Supreme Court of the United States
concept of the Constitution of the United States> but, we do
not accept Mr. Willimms' Interpretation of thoca decisions
without reservation.
MR. WILLIAMS: Wall, nay it please the Court, they
have not accepted them for years, and we have been hawing to
go back to tha Supresw Court and the Supreme Court each time
has said we were right and seams to me that it's time they
began accepting them as public officials after soma 17 years.
MR. WITT: May it please the Court, I would like
to call Mr. Williams' attention to the fact that this school
system went — had a plan of desegregation approved to this
Henry - Redirect 511
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912Henry - Redirect
court — went to the Circuit Court of Appeals of the United
States, approved by that court with one exception on faculty
desegregation. It was not appealed to the Supreme Court of
the United States, and therefore this school system is in
compliance with —
THE COURT; (Interposing) Well, Mr. Witt, there
have been, have there not, new interpretations of the law
i this case was first decided back in 1962?
MR. WITT; Yes, Your Honor, there have, but to
be able to understand the significance of these cases and
make it applicable to this school system has been extremely
difficult.
THE COURT: All right. Well, proceed. State your
question. Let's proceed.
BY MR. WITTi
Q Mr. Williams discussed the importance of involving
people in decisions. And, I believe that you agreed that this
was important?
A Very much so. I think if our intention is
successful integration, that we should communicate across as
broad a base as possible as to what the law is, to what our
role should be and involve a broader base, the community as
far as possible. I am sure we will have support. We will
have hostility, but I think our job is as the school system is
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913Henry ~ Redirect
to got with those pooplo and if wo ore going to howo succossfui
integration, to involre as oany pooplo aa po.-r.lblw and naio
them feel they are a part of it.
And, what we are trying to do I think it’s very
germane that we proceed along these lines for success. I
think we can prevent a lot of problems if we will simply
communicate our intent and our intent is to integrate the
school system.
Now, with the new interpretation of the law, we
foal like what wo are hare for is to get sooo guidelines to go
with.
Q Do you know of any way to involve people against
their will?
THE COURT: Well, 1 have to sentence people who
don't want to comply with the law; very unpleasant chore, but
I have to.
MR. WITT: Your Honor, the power of the federal
court is not the same as the power of the City school system,
ami it is the City school system that is isfore this Court
as a defendant and the City school system has capabilities
that are limited. That's the point I am trying to make.
THE COURT: I see.
BY HR. WITT:
o Mr. Williams discussed the question of speed.
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accomplishing the goal of integration. Do you think that
speed is the primary —
A (Interposing) Ho, I would say understanding. I
am under — we can be extremely slow, I admit this, as a race,
a nation and everything vise, and great feeling in this direc
tion; but I think the more important thing is the success of
this, aiu. I say this because of the fact that I hope this is
relevant, but that according to the Chamber of Commerce, we
had 75,000 people of school age in the metropolitan Chattanooga
area and only 25,000 of those people are in the City of Chatta
nooga. And the close proximity of these havens for people to
run to that if we don't have understanding or something, we
could possibly get into a situation like, of course, I say
Washington or something like this, and this I don't want to
happen.
I think we should move with understanding with
the people — blacks, whites, and everybody. I think this is
very important.
The proximity of Georgia, of th? Hamilton County,
and these people outside are possible control, it's an
alternative, whether we like it or not, it's a reality.
Q Do you know of any other way to do your job?
A Ho.
MR. WITT: Ho further questions.
Henry - Redirect 914
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Henry - Recross 915
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WILLIAMS;
Q What do you Mean by this rather vague reference to
understanding, Mr. — Dr. Henry?
A Well, in other words, people could, and I, of
course, been to PTA meetings every night installing officers.
The question constantly is, "Are you going to force ray child
to go to Howard High School? Will he be safe in the situation?”
And we would like to undergo and have a chance and
opportunity to talk to people and say, "We want to put 50
percent whites and blacks there. We want to have enough
white students there where that you will feel the — distinctly»
there and that — that people will feel safe and that they will
feel that they will have an opportunity to learn as they would
Itin any other school; and to assure people o' this prooess.
And, the sane way with the blacks going into the
Brainerd area, something like this. I think it’s a total area
here we have to work with carefully.
0 Are you aware this same kind of effort was presentei
to the Court by Mr. Carmichael back in 1961-62, that this
understanding was essential and they were having community
meetings? Did you know that they actually presented to the
Court schedules of community meetings of the parents where
they say, "We are explaining the importance of integration,"
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Henry 916
and all that sort of thing?
A Yes, I want to one of those in Brainerd — excuse
me, in fact, relate this —
Q (Interposing) That did not result in substantial
integration?
A Didn1t work.
itecross
Q And, if you feel that that is still needed, then
it did not result in any significant change in their attitudes
that you are discussing either, did it?
A Well, it may have affected some, but not appreciably,
Q All right, sir. Horn, then, also, cm this question
of jetting understanding, would you agree that the necessity
for this arises out of fears to some extent, fear of the
unknown?
A Yes.
Q And, would you likewise agree that fear of the
unknown is unlikely to be dispelled until the unknown becomes
the known?
A That's true.
q So that these, would you not agree, then, Dr.
Henry, that this — that a program developing understanding
could better be conducted simultaneously with the ultimate
implementation of integration, in other words, if they know
it's happening right now?
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Henry - Recross .>17
A I think it’s right. You may have some misinter
pretation on time. I am not talking about years or anything
like this. I am talking about through the sussser, something,
a short-time situation.
Q What you are saying is the desegregation plan ought
to have in it provisions for orientation of everybody concerned
that —
A (Interposing) That's true.
Q That's what you are saying, isn't it, sir?
A That's true.
Q Dr. Henry, isn't it true that the Title IV center
at the University of Tennessee l-as — and other Title IV
centers, for that natter, do have experts available who can
*v sist a school system in orientation — in teacher orienta
tion and student orientation and in the community orientation
if called upon?
A Yes, but I have difficulty with experts. Think
in going to the grass roots, to the people in the coseaunities
themselves, they need someone from the conu-unity —
MR. WITT: (Interposing) I'm sorry, let him
answer the question.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. If we — I think that
the people in the community need to have someone that they
respect and know that can tell them what it is. I — we have
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Henry - Recross 918
had too many experts from the outside on everything, that we
need scanebody that's respected both in the black and white
community to go in there and talk to them, to assure them of
various things.
I don't think this would take a long time as far
as that's concerned; but in the process of integration, I
think this is very necessary, that people feel that they are
being involved and are supported and that these are their
people — o.ir people.
Q Let me ask you this. Dr. Henry; Were you — were
you Superintendent last year when they had the Brainerd School
situation where they — where the white children at Brainerd
wore insisting on having the Dixie song — Dixie as the school
song and the Confederate flag as the school symbol and there
were disturbances out there?
A No, I was principal at Chattanooga High School,
across town.
Q That did occur, did it not?
a Yes.
0 Because of the apparent lack of sensitivity of the
white children to the things that would insult and cause black
children to feel bad, was the Title IV center at the University
of Tennessee called in at that time? Wasn't Dr. Vendetti and
Dr. Myers called —
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Henry - Recross 919
A
Q
A
(Interposing) Yes.
(Continuing) — called in?
They were there on the job when the incidents
happened.
Q Were their efforts successful to eoem extent?
A Well, to some extent I think th*t the results of
it are bearing fruit this year. At the time it wasn't too
successful, but —
Q (Interposing) All right, sir. Wow, then, what
is your annual — what was your annual operating budget last
year, approximately?
A Sixteen and a half million.
Q Sixteen and a half million dollars? And what is
your expected annual — your expected operating budget this
year?
A I am sorry. I have no way.
Q Would you say expected to be more or less?
A From the look of things, I am sure it will be
more; but I don't know how Mich.
Q Like taxes, everything goes up?
A Of course, people may decide a little differently
from what I read in the papers.
Q What is your capital improvement budget, what was
it last year?
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Henry - Recross 920
A our capital outlay last year, I hat* to Mention
this, was $25,000.
0 Do you have a capital improvement budget? l think
they're usually projected over a five or six year period, are
they not?
A We haven't passed a bond issue in so long that we
have a priority list and we are painting buildings this year.
Our maintenance percentage of our budget last year was 9
percent which was much higher than national average -- way up
as far as expenditures. We are below on everything except
maintenance and the reason for this is we have a lot of old
buildings and haven't passed a bond issue or have any money to
build anything.
Q You have plans for a new school construction?
A No.
0 You have no plans at all on the drawing boards?
A Well, we have had — contemplated some alternatives
with the Howard Junior High School as far as the gym but not
for an actual building. At one time we thought of the area
north of the river, but unless there is some annexation or
something, junior high in that area, there is no reason for it.
We have plenty of classroom space available inside the city.
Q All right, sir.
A without annexation, there's no —
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Henry - Recross 921
Q (Interposing) There Is one —— on tills question
of safety, buses are considered safe, are they not?
A Yes.
Q And I v-ajit to get this clear. The State "i.-imm
Foundation Progress will provide transportation funds to a
municipality where it contracts with the County i.. which it
is located, will it not?
A Yes, if they meet the requirements.
0 And it will provide funds in any case where a
child is transported store than a mile and a half to the school
to which he is assigned?
^ **o. If it's a stile and a half jway from possible
public transportation, I think is the way it's stated, public
transportation — in other words, there has to be public
transportation of some type available.
Q Well, now, isn't bus Ll j ^portation being provided
in the Pine Hill community now?
A Yes.
0 Doesn't the Red Bank bus line c o m within a mile
and a half of a great deal of Pine Hill?
A i am not sure, but I don't think so.
Q Is bus transportation being provided in the
Riverview community?
A PiVermont?
Henry - Recross 922
Q
A
Q
of that?
Ri Vermont?
Yes, sir.
Doesn't a DuPont bus upon a mile and a half
A It may come to some of them, but I don't think so.
Q Do Brainerd or airport buses come within a mile and
a half of the annexed areas around the airport?
A I am not sure, but I don't think so.
Q Where did you get that information that you have
just given that you say you think that —
A (Interposing) Prom the minimum rules and regulations
from the State of Tennessee, guidelines and directions.
Q Are those in print? Do you have a printed copy of
those?
Q
A
Q
I am sure I do.
All right, sir. Will you —
(Interposing) Yes.
(Continuing) — bring those with you so that we
can take a look at them and Court can examine them?
A Right.
Q All right, sir. Thank you. How, then, of course,
Chattanooga is such a relatively compact city in size that
a great deal of the rezoning to effectuate integration can be
clone without any requirement of children being bused to school,
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Henry - Recross 923
can it not?
A
Q
A
Nov, that, I an not sure.
All right. That would be spec —
(Interposing) There's — I don't think the distande
is a factor as Much as the safety and other things.
0 You are not in any position at this time to say
how many children would have to be bused or not?
A No, no.
Q And, as a matter of fact, aside from the question
of busing for integration, haven't people sought after buses?
Buses are considered a good, educational — a good technique
of getting children to school, isn't it?
A Yes.
Q Aren't they? They actually — they are safer than
having children walk to school in many instances, are they not?
A Probably so.
Q They get on the bus at home and they are let off
at the school property? That's true, isn't it, Doctor?
A In that respect, yes.
Q Now, what is the navi etna travel time for any
child being bused to school in Chattanooga today?
A I don't know, thirty minutes to an hour, somewhere
in there.
Q
I am not sure.
Dr. Henry, would you say that the City of Chci
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i noc ga
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Henry - Recross 924
hso a very good or an inadequate road nvt?
A Inadequate, what, road?
Q Road net, street, highway net.
A I'd say it would be adequate.
Q Indeed you have a freeway which — which travels
the entire length of this city, haven't you?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
Q And then you have a — going easterly and westerly
direction and then you have — you have another major highway,
153 on the east and northeast, don't you?
A Practically all in the county but area around
there.
Q Yes. And then you have over in the west, the
freeway extends in a northerly direction ovor across the river
into north Chattanooga and you have three bridges over
river there, don't you?
A Yes.
Q Indeed the road net is so good that you built a
major high school over there, the Chattanooga High School.
All right, sir. There are no b Lack principals
in formerly white schools, are there?
A Yes.
Q Except for Hemlock, which is —
A (Interposing) No, Hardy, Avondale, Glenwood.
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henry - Recross 92S
Q Those are all now black schools, though, aren't
they? Is there any black principal in a white school that
has —
A (Interposing) I thought — excuse rae. I thought
you asked any formerly all-white schools now had black
pri .cipals.
Q That was an inaccurate question and thank you, sir.
Are there any black principals in any school with predominantly
white student body?
A No.
0 Are there any black administrators in white
schools who have charge of curriculum development, things like
Mr. McCallie has charge of over at Howard?
A Let me see, no.
Q Isn't it true that black administrators have been
thus far assigned to predominantly white schools primarily
as sort of guards to keep the black students in line?
A I wouldn't want to make that assumption. It may
be perceived by some. I know some of them made outstanding
contributions. Reverend Hates at Chattanooga High School,
1 an personally familiar with the outstanding job with whites
and blacks.
Q There is presently an open housing ordinance
pending before the City Commission, you are not aware of that?
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A Ho.
Q fight. Isn't the county school system about
at capacity?
A Or overcapacity, yes.
Q Overcapacity? And, it has been some time since
the county school system has had a bond issue, too, isn't it?
A yes.
0 There has been resistance to floating of bond
issues in Hamilton County, is that correct?
Henry - lie cross 9 2 6
A
Q
city?
A
Q
In the entire county.
In the entire county including this county and the
That's right.
what percentage of those 1,106 students who are
being bused on the minimum foundation program sure white, would
you say?
A I'd say most of them are white.
Q Indeed the areas where they are being bused, this
Pineville community out here and --
A (Interposing) RiVermont.
Q RiVermont, is that up here?
A Yes, right there where your pen —
Q (Interposing) Yes. And, the airport area?
A Airport area I think — well, I am not sure, but
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Henry - Recross 927
I think that would be black.
Q That has a few blacks, doesn't it?
A Uh-huh.
Q But, the other is almost exclusively white?
A Tea.
Q ilov much ESAP Money did you get last year, that
TV School Assistance Program?
A Zero, none.
0 Those are funds which are provided by the Pederal
Government for the purpose of facilitating integration of
schools, are they not?
A At the State level we are approved for $372,000.
It went to Atlanta and someone there judged that we were not
in the final phase of our desegregation; therefore we were
not eligible.
Q So then — thank you, sir. Then, it would
facilitate your efforts to secure sone federal funds if the
Court were to — were to direct you to effectively and meaning
fully integrate the Chattanooga school system right away?
A That's right.
Q Would that be why you have been so cooperative in
this lawsuit, Dr. Henry?
A I may not be — well, I'd better not say that.
1 found out from Mr. James you can't be off the record, so —
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Henry - Recross 928
Q (Interposing) Dr. Henry, there is one thing that
I forgot to ask while we were discussing transfer — the
transfer plans. While we were discussing tne subject of
transfer, there is one kind of transfer that although it hasn’t
been too successful in effectuating integration by itself, can
be helpful, and that is the Majority to minority transfer,
isn't it?
A Yes.
Q That kind of transfer is txv-rse of what the School
Board sought to have the Court approve in this case, inmediatelr
initially, instead of letting a child transfer from a school
where he would be in the minority to a school where he would be
in the majority, it lets them cross zone lines and transfer
automatically from a school where his race majority to a
school where his school is in the minority and that in some
instances, although minimally, helps to effectuate integration,
doesn't it?
A Could, yes.
0 Now, then, given — one final question — given
your faculties and staffs —
THE COURT: (Interposing) As I read the Svann
case, the Supreme Court say* that's mandatory in every transfer
plan?
MR. WITT: May it please the Court, for a school
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Henry - Recross 929
system in default.
BY MR. WILLIAMS;
Q Given your faculties and staffs in the system,
if you were ordered by the Court to fully integrate the
faculties and student bodies of this school system, could you
do so and do it well?
A That last statestent, I don't know — well part,
but
Q (Interposing) You could do so?
A Provided the funds and — yes.
0 Your only consideration, your only concern at this
time is white flight and your main concern at this time is
white flight, as I gather it, to the county, and you concede
that the capacity of the county school systeai at this time
would not permit such white flight, would you?
A Well, it's never really all that simple. There
would be many problems.
Q But, it would be difficult for the county school
system to absorb a great deal of escapees from the City in
its present condition, wouldn’t it?
A Yes, I don't know about Georgia right across the
line here, but — yes.
Q All right, sir. Well, we can't solve the problems
of Georgia, can we, Mister — Dr. Henry?
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Henry - Re cross - Redirect 930
A No.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITT;
Q Dr. Henry, are you familiar with a newsletter fro*
the Nashville Center for Research and Information on Equal
Education Opportunity, January of this year, entitled "Equal
Educational Opportunity"?
A Tes.
Q Like — if you'd make that an exhibit to your
testimony. Exhibit 68.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit Mo.
68 for identification, Witness Dr.
Henry, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT;
Q Wish you would read the paragraph of this that's
circled on the right-hand page.
A "Equal educational — ”
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) May I see that?
MR. WITT: Yes, you may. Excuse me. I don't have
another copy.
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, this is
technically inadmissible and while I don't object to the
content of it, I don't want to set a precedent. It's not
an official publication like the race relations information.
THE COURT: Let's see what we are talking about.
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Henry - Redirect 931
Let’s see what we are talking about first and consider the
relevance and admissibility of it.
THE WITNESS< "Equal educations L opportunity
that where what children bring to school is unequal, what the
school puts in must be unequal and individualised to insure
that what the school produces is at least equal at the basic
levels of achievement.■
MR. WILLIAMS: I withdraw my obi action, if Tour
Honor please.
THE WITNESS: "Equalisation of educational
opportunity in a democracy requires that parity in achievement
at a base line corresponding to the level r n^uired for "oclil
satisfaction and democratic participation. It also «<«n»andB
opportunity and freedom to vary with respect to achievement
ceilings. It is in the reconciliation of these sometimes
conflicting requirements that equality of opportunity is
tested. At some points in the development of a society it
may be necessary to favor universality to the disadvantage
of uniqueness. And at other times universality may need to
be sacrificed in the interest of unique achievement.
MIf preferential position is continuously given to
one, equality of opportunity is precluded. However, the more
optimistic among us claim that this country can well afford to
allocate the necessary resources to give greater priority to
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Henry - Redirect 932
Health, to education, and to welfare to more nearly insure
equal opportunity for basic educational achievement without
limiting the freedom of individuals to rise above that base
line.
"For those of use who are critical of the current
priorities at the „ime — at this time in the history ofour
nation, the vastness of these resources indicates that conflictB
simply need not exist."
BY MR. WITT;
£ Would you care to comment on that with regard to
your own position?
A Well, in the creation of equal opportunity, I
think there is an obligation to everyone for a certain minimum
level educational achievement; out I think there is also an
obligation to those people who go way beyond the minimum level
of achievement that we should provide the opportunities for
these people, also.
4 Is that whut you are trying to do?
a Yes.
4 I hand you another document, publication entitled,
1 suppose, "Journal for Promotion of Leadership in
Education," Volume 52, No. 9, May 1971; and call
your attention to an article on page 54l by the
dean of education at the State University, New Pauls,
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Henry - Redirect 933
New Yort', Mario D. Fantinl, and ask you to make this •«
MR. WILLIAMS: (interposing) May I see It?
MR. WITT* Yes.
MR. WILLIAMS: May It please the Court, I would
strenuously object to this. This Is nothing but hearsay and
It Is not admissible under any exception to the hearsay rule.
vs I said, we introduced this publication, but it
was — this is an official publication of the United States
Government. nd, it is therefore admissible, but this is not.
This purports to be an article by somebody who is not lie re for
me to cross examine about his use — it was the same objection
I had to that one, if Your Honor please. I withdrew ay
objection to that one oecause it appeared to be more favorable
to the plaintiff's position here, but I don't know what 1 his
ip, and I object to this hearsay.
THE COURT: What is the purpose?
MR. WITT: The purpose is to indicate —
THE COURT: (interposing) If you are seeking to
elicit this witness' views upon some matter that's relevant,
of coui-se, you may elicit his views; if you are merely seeking
to have this witness read a part, so to speak, something
Into therecord, something that someone else has said who is
not aviilla.' le as a witness, of course, would not oe competent.
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Henry - Redirect 934
MR. WITT: The purpose is to get this witness'
views in the area.
THE COURT: State your question and let's see what
his views nay be upon the natter that you consider relevant.
BY MR. WITT;
Q Dr. Henry, do you think it's inportant in the
discharge of your responsibility that students and parents and
teachers have choices to nake?
A Yes, I believe in looking all — well, looking at
as many alternatives as possible in a situation. The — I
know that what we are looking for, if you don't nind me
expounding on this, is the success of integration. And, soningj,
per se, may or nay not be successful and what we have experienced
here in the Hardy area and the Glenwood area like this, it has
not.
At the high school level, we know this has not
been successful, also, but in looking at alternatives and
this article in this magazine purports to show another alter
native, w h i c h would be in the relatively small city area,
to set up, and the reason it came to my attention it sets up
s o m e t h i n g similar to what we have, which we really haven't
made function properly.
*
But, it shows different schools in a city where
people, you have this freedom of choice operating where
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different schools provide different opportunities almost
exclusively where you would have a oolloge preparatory school
all the way, technical school all the way. Another informal
school situation that purports about seven different schools
there, and this is the first example that Z have ever heard
of this situation which was simply another alternative in
seeking success.
Q Dr. Henry, in discharging your responsibility, is
anything more important to you than what happens to the
child?
A
A No no.
MR. WITT: Thank you.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WILLIAMS: I
Q Dr. Henry, in your last remark about a possible
alternative of establishing special types of schools for
special types of people, that type of arrangement ia sometimes
called homogenous grouping?
A Ho, I wouldn't want to call it that.
i
0 Wall, it would develop towards that if you had
a special school for children who are going to be directed
toward — directed to college end another a; ecial school for
children who were going to be directed to vocational training
and another for, perhaps, seme other kind of training, isn't
y
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Henry - Redirect 935
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Henry - Recress 936
that sort of shat yon had In mind?
A He, I think this would defeat our purpose.
Q Nhat did you have in eind?
A The — give the students an opportunity to have
as many alternatives as they could to continue their education
in various directions. If it 1nrteeri effected a homogenous
grouping type tiling, Z would be opposed to it.
Q Is what you're talking about something similar
to the track system they had?
A No, no. This is — it's — trail, it's a fairly
new concept, technical center and the college-bound center
is one concept; but if we go beyond this into the informal
school, those who are simply not able to achieve or to
compete in a normal regular setup.
Q Ability groupings and that sort of thing?
A No.
0 When you take the dressing off of it, what it
is is grouping some children as being bound for college and
other children as being bound for vocations and so on, isn't
it?
A
Q
A
No, I think this is extremely —
(Interposing) How does it difftr?
I think this is an extremely simple observation
from a complex situation. I think what we are developing with
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in schools, in children today especially at the ttrn sjs level
is looking for relevancy. Admitted, many of the things me
have in school we haven't received in this area. This has
provided a broader alternative.
Q What provides the broader alternative?
A The different type of schools.
Q You mean you have different types of schools?
A Analogous to the situation in the classroom — not
classroom but school, being able to take different subjects.
You could I don't know if it has ever been tried anywhere,
but the concept I think is sound in that you dc provide the
totally different type schools — in other words, free and
open type school, msybe one which is strictly for the students
that are having difficulty in a regular school situation, snsm
thing like the Philadelphia Parkway School, another one — an
school situation.
You can find about as — many altarnativas to
situations where students could a choice.
0 Row would this integrate the schools? What does
this have to do with integration?
A Very little other than your —
Q (Interposing) You are just talking about a
different type of school program that you are considering
that wight be administratively different than your present
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Henry - Recross 938
setup, isn't that true?
A Yes, basically.
Q You are not talking about a desegregation plan,
are you?
A No.
Q Indeed, if you were to — you have already con
ceded that black children in racial isolation are getting an
inadequate education?
A That's true.
Q And, that inadequate education has already affected
their educational achievement, hasn't it?
A That's true.
Q So if you were to adopt as a part of the desegrega
tion plan any kind of a program set up change which would
channel educationally disadvantaged children into one group
by themselves, then that would tend to cause segregation rathe*
than integration, wouldn't it?
A If it did, that of oourse, we wouldn't want it.
we are looking for something —
Q (Interposing) That would be the effect of it in
the present posture, wouldn't it?
A Well, I couldn't say. I don't know.
Q Were you aware of. Or. Henry, cf a recent educa
tional trend away from the isolation of disadvantaged —
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Henry - Recross 939
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educationally disadvantaged children?
A Yea.
C Are you aware of a trend even to eliminate these
special educational schools that we have had in the past and
special education classes and to educate children whom we have
traditionally called special education children in conjunction
with the other children?
THE COURT: I don't wish to interpret your examina
tion, but aren't we talking about hypothetical natters rather
than talking about the Chattanooga school system either as it
now exists or as it is planned to exist. Are we talking about
what is happening in Philadelphia?
MR. WILLIAMS: I think, yes, if Your Honor please,
I think this, like a whole lot of this that has gone on, is
probably irrelevant; but since it was brought up, I felt I
had to deal with it.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q What your lawyer asked you in regard to this
theory about a plan in the magazine article ixad nothing
whatsoever to do with school integration, had it?
A Well, it — simply looking for another alternative
which —
Q (Interposing) Why do we all of a sudden start
looking for alternatives when the requirement comes to
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Hanry - Recross 940
integrat# schools? Me haven't been Looking for any alteraatiw
so long as the schools were segregated?
A Because we haven *t had success in soning and where
we have used —
Q (Interposing) What is that?
A
have used.
We haven't had success with the zoning that we
Q Well, the zoning that you have used was not zoning
designed to integrate the schools, though, was it?
A it wasn't designed on the L a s i.- i of placing students
of one race of another in a school.
Q And so until you do that you don’t know whether
zoning will be successful, do you?
A
know.
All we know it was not successful. That's all we
Q Well, but, going back again — I an sorry I have
to go back over it again.
You conceded that the zoning — that no new zoning
was established, that substantially the same zones which were
provided for segregated schools were retained as a desegrega
tion plan?
A No, I could never agree to that. The — the zones
existed around the schools. Have bee.» there historically,
many years.
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Henry - Recross 941
Q And they were segregated schvols?
A They changed back and forth several times.
Q Yes, they have. Hell, but they w r » segregated
schools regardless of how they changed?
A Yes.
Q And, those sones in 1942-63 when the school system
was allegedly desegregated under a unitary system, those sones
were retained substantially, weren’t they?
A Yes.
Q Now, then, you concede, then, that the sones which
were retained were zones around schools which were already
segregated?
A Yes. But those same sones existed way back in
antiquity.
q But, you have to — you are driven bo concede that
those zones were not likely to be effective to abolish segrega
tion in the schools?
A That's true.
0 Don't you. Dr. Henry? Now, until yon adopt some
zones which abolish segregation in the schools, then you don't
Jcnow whether zones will be effective, do you?
A No; but we have had blacks and whites within the
same zone, and we have seen it where it didn't work.
Q But — well, you say it diVh't work, but you had the
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Henry - Recroas 942
white schools oat here for thee to go to, didn't you?
A That's true.
Q You had the transfer system thnt let them go,
didn't you? At least in some instances and in the high schools
you had freedom of choice and —
A (Interposing) Yes.
0 (Continuing) — and that retains segregation?
A That's true. And that —
Q (Interposing) So you never have in Chattanooga
had a zoning system that integrated every school in the system
according to the approximate ratio of the students in the
system, have you?
A Mo.
Q So that any population changes, that any moving
or shifting around would have to go out of the county in order
to escape an integrated school?
A Out of the city and what I am saying is we are
still not in what, if we simply go to zones and zones alone,
we are still not doing it, because you still have an escape
situation.
Q Where would the —
A (Interposing) Into the county or into Georgia.
Q Well, of course, we have already covered that.
I won't go back over the county and Georgia situation.
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A But, it's still there.
Q All right.
THE COURT: Anything further of this witness
st this time? All right. You say be excused.
(Witness excused.)
THE COURT: Now, gentlemen, ve ere going to take
a recess. Before we take a recess, where do we stand with
reference to the witnesses in the case?
HR. WITT: I expect to call Dr. Hsusties next,
be followed by —
THE COURT: (Interposing) And wuat is his
position?
HR. WITT: It's his responsibility — we are new
moving into the proof with regard to faculty desegregation.
THE COURT: I see.
MR. WITT: And the efforts that hive been made
over the last five or six years to desegregate the faculty.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WILLIAMS: If Your Honor pleaae, I have said
from the outset I wonder when counsel for the defendant — and
I guess I ought not to say it in this manner — bet it seems
to me like it's a waste of time because regardless of what
efforts they have made, what is important is what exists now,
and the legal effect of that a.d everybody admits — the
f»;,ry - Recross 943
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U N I U O S T A T F S D I S T R I C T C O U I I
944
Superintendent admits, everybody in the school system admits
that they are not effectively desegregated.
Why do we have to go over what they have done in
the past?
THE COURT: Well, gentlemen, this trial, of course,
is not only a trial, it's also or should be an educational
process. It's certainly an educational process for the Court.
Quite frankly, it's been some disappointment to the Court that
I haven't observed any School Board members here. Perhaps
there have been some here. This School Board — the School
Board members are defendants in this case.
Now, we recessed court yesterday afternoon to
allow the School Board to take up some of taeir problems. X
doubt very seriously that any problem they took up approached
the importance of the problems that we are taking up here.
MR. WITT: May it please the Court —
THE COURT: (Interposing) It would be helpful if
* 4 : 1
those who have responsibilities in these areas would participates
in the educational process that this trial affords the Court.
Suspect it would afford an educational process to them, too.
Now, they, the Board, can, of course, leave all
this up to the Court and the Court's going to perform its
responsibility in this cass. It seems to the Court, however,
to be a much more desirable situation if aJl of us assumed our
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945
respective responsibilities and set about to accomplish a
goal that first we are ordered by the laws of this nation to
accomplish and, second, to perform oux obligation to all of
our citisens.
MR. WITT; May it please the Court, that is sy
fault. Mr. Jenkins has been here throughout the entire trial.
Miss Hooper has been here throughout the entire trial.
time.
THE COURT; I appreciate their presence very much.
MR. WITT: Mr. Cook Las been here 75 percent of ths
W E COURT: I realise it's a problem and they cannot
be expected —
MR. WITT: (Interposing) Cosmissioner is present
and has been hvrx from time to time. Hr. Proctor has been
here. The only member of the School Board that not been
here is Mrs. Carter Young.
THE COURT: All right. Well, 1 just mentioned
that with the thought that at least when we get to the heart
of this case, those who have responsibilities in this area,
if they could be present and hear what's being said, it would
be helpful to them I feel as well as to the Court. For that
reason among others, Mr. Mil11asm, I think that we should
proceed with this trial and we should let each party develop
the case as they conceive that it £ ould be developed.
N l C H A R O S M I T H O f f I f l A L C O U R 1 R f P O N I t H
U N I T f c D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Ileustess Direct 944
Let's take a 10-minute recess.
(Thereupon, a recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right. Hold up your right hand.
JAMES HENRY HEUSTESS,
called as a witness at the instance of the defendants, being
first duly sworn, was examined and testified as followst
DIRECT EXAMIMATIOH
BY HR. WITT:
Q would you please state your full name?
A James Henry Heustess.
Q Where are you presently employer?
A Chattanooga City Schools.
Q Dr. Heustiss, what is your responsibility?
A I am Assistant Superintendent for Staff Personnel.
Q Would you state to the Court your educational —
formal educational background?
A BS, University of Alabama; AB, Huntington College;
HA, George Peabody College; and ^ George Peabody College
end of this month.
Q Did you say ^
A Yes.
Q What does that mean?
A Doctor of education.
Q Now, would you describe to the Court your employment
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Hsusteas - Direct 947
background?
A Two years teaching in tha public schools of
Alabama in the late forties, then 1954 through *44, teaching,
assistant headmaster, Tennessee Military Institute; then three
years with the ’metropolitan public schools in Nashville, first
as — well, four years, first as an administrative intern and
then as supervisor of recruitment — teacher recruitment;
supervisor of student teaching, supervisor of classified
personnel, and finally assistant director of personnel.
q when did you come to the Chattanooge school system?
A It vas a year ago last February or March.
Q This would be February, March of 1970?
A Right.
q who was the superintendent at the time that you
came to the Chattanooga system?
A Jack Lawrie.
Q Mere you — did Jack Lawrie employ you?
A Yes.
Q All right. Since March of 1970, would you
describe the manner in which you have attempted to discharge
your responsibility with regard to the employment of new
teachers?
A
program.
Me have set up a recruitment campaign — recruitment
The object of this recruitment program is to try to
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T fc W
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
lieu stoss - Direct 948
obtain the beat quality teachers that we can.
We have set up a fairly good system, I think, of
processing the applications, of making some sort of determina
tion of the person's qualifications and how well they meet
some criteria that we have and then when there are vacancies,
we recommend them.
Q All right. Is Mr. James under your supervision?
A Yes, he is.
Q Were you here during his testimony?
A Yes.
Q Would you care to expand on the items covered by
his testimony, any gaps or other aspects that you would like
to cover, since he was under your supervision?
A Well, immediately one thing that he — impression
that he said that he had I would like to correct that is
in regards to the NTE — use of HTE.
Q Beg your pardon?
A Our use of the HTE.
Q All right. We do not use the NTE in any way in
selection of teachers. It is required of our teachers as a
matter of Board policy which I have not made a recommendation
to the lioard one way or another about; but we — I do not
have any intention of recommending to the Board that it
became any more an integral part of the selection of teachers
Heustess - Direct 949
than it is now.
i
Q All right. What part does it play in the selec
tion of the teachers now?
A We use it as a matter of almost casual interest,
Mr. Witt, if that.
Q Then, why do you require it?
A It is required by Board policy and we have not
recommended that it be dropped from the req tireraents.
Q Are you considering that?
A I hadn't gotten around to it, but if I had to make
a recommendation to the Board, I would recommend to the Board
that it be dropped.
Q And what would be your reasons?
A The National Teachers Examination rightly or
wrongly has come under a great deal of criticism as being
highly acculturated. The people at Educational Testing
Service say that properly used it is not discriminatory. I
think that they may well be right, but I think that other
things give us almost the same information and really can
just see not much reason to use it.
Q You say highly adulterated? I am not —
A (Interposing) Highly acculturated.
Q
it, please?
I am not sure I understand that. Would you explain
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u n i t e o s p a t e s d i s t r i c t c o u r t
Heustess - Direct 9S0
A I will try. The claim has been made that it is
a test that is weighted for the middle class, white culture,
and that it is therefore weighted against the black culture
and especially black culture that is not ali^dla class culture.
Q Do you recall the policy with reference to
employment of new teachers with regard to crossover teachers
in assigning teachers? At the time that you assusted this
responbility, do you recall what the Board policy was?
A At the time that I assumed this responsibility
and up until now so far, let's sake a distinction, please,
between Board policy which is written formally, adopted by
the Board, and administrative procedures.
Q All right, bet's direct your attention to the
policy as formally adopted by the Board for the moment.
A So far as I am aware, there is none.
Q You can't — when you came to this system, you
were not advised there was any policy, formal policy, on this
by the Board?
A No formally adopted policy by the Board that I
know of.
Q All right. What did you understand was the
operational policy that had been put in effect?
A During the period of several months after I got
here, I understood that there was a general administrative
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Ileus tess - Direct 951
operating procedure to the effect that in cases share there
were vacancies, blacks would be assigned predoadnantly white
faculties, whites to be assigned to predominantly black
faculties with the concurrence of everyone concerned and all
things being equal.
I assune fro® some things I havs heard that that
concurrence of everyone concerned was not necessarily a part
of the operating policy although this was what I was led to
believe.
Q All right. Let's start at the employment level,
as you understood this policy when you arrived.
A All right.
Q In Chattanooga? At the time of the interview of
a prospective teacher, was any question asked thee with
reference to whether or not they would be willing to teach in
a • o-<ool that was substantially a race other than their own?
A Since X have been here, we have asked every teacher
applicant this; but we have not only asked then tills question,
we also make some attempt, limited though it is, in our inter
views to try to assess the sincerity of their statement,
because very often a person will tell you, “Yes, I will go
anywhere.- But then when It cosies to assignment time, they
change their mind.
Q If the answer to this question is no, what happens
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Heustess - Direct 952
then?
A If a person says they will not accept a position,
work in a segregated situation or in a cross-racial situation,
we do not employ him. They are not recommended for employment.
Q Do you know how long that operational policy has
been in effect?
A Since I have been here.
0 Are you aware of anything prior to that time?
A My impression is that it has been in effect for
socm period of time before.
0 All right. Now, in your description for the policy
as you understood it at the time that you arrived in Chatta
nooga, you referred to the concurrence of everyone.
Now, what — let's take a typical situation and
you are looking for a teacher at a junior high school.
Now, what individuals in the staff would be asked
for their concurrence in assignment?
A Primarily the principal. I think that we have
an — I know that we have attempted to work with principals
as well as with the teacher applicants or the person who has
been elected and our office in having assignments be mutually
agreeable.
Q Does that give the principal the veto?
A It does not give the principal a veto. However,
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Heuateas - Direct 953
if a principal feels quite strongly about having or not having
a person on his staff, our operating procedure has bean to
take the principal's preferences into pretty heavy consideration.
Nov, I don't know how such you want aw to expand
on this, but let me say I cane from a system where this was
not done. And —
0 (Interposing) What was not done?
A Taking the principals into consideration at the
time of first assignment.
Q Tes.
A And, I started my operations here without taking
the principals very much into consideration and found that
it is rather a long tradition and standing as 1 understand it
in Chattanooga that this be done.
And so, I have acclimated myself to this.
Q All right . £>r. ileus teas, in your training and
educational administration, was this particular facet of
school administration a subject of study?
A I read sosie study of school personnel administra
tion, yes.
Q But, the particular point of involving the principal
in the assignment process, was this?
A I think it's considered always a good thing to
have as many of the people who are going to be involved in
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R t P O R T t R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Ileus tese - Direct 954
facilitating a decision involved in mating the decision if
possible.
Q Wall, what would be the backup reasoning for
involving the principal?
A That if the principal has some say in the matter
of who is going to come to his school, that he will have a
tendency to work with him better, to accept them as part of
his team and not to be overly critical, certainly, in the
beginning.
0 Are you saying that directs itself towards the
effectiveness of performance?
A I think it would direct itself more to the
climate that would allow the teacher to be effective.
0 What about the principal?
A Oh, well, yes.
Q All right. What kind of success have you been
able to have since you have been in Chattanooga with reference
to assigning teachers across race lines?
A We have made some progress. It has not been
spectacular progress. We have some schools that are, if I
understand the Montgomery , we have soma few schools that
would fall easily within this. We have some within fairly
easy striking distance of it.
This process of staff desegregation, X understand,
NI C H A H O ' . M i n i O K i r i A l C O U N T R t P O N I E H
U N I I t O S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Heustess - Direct 955
has been going on for several years before 1 arrived, so I
cannot claim credit for all of it.
During the past school year, we have made great
attempts not strictly to assign, let’s say, a white crossover
teacher not just because she is new and doesn’t have any other
choice just to assign her there, but we hav'S made sons attempt
to assign people in crossover situations that we felt would
have a degree of success in the assignment and that possibly
would stay there.
Now, this was a highly subjective judgment on our
part. Last year during the — well, during the period of last
year, 41 white teachers who were assigned to black schools
quit, went on leave or something. We had to employ 41 there
just to stand still.
q A l l right. You mentioned that this is a subjective
judgment. Do you know any other way to make this judgment?
A Well, yes. Ideally if the p e n on came to us with
a successful history of having worked in the cross racial
situation, then we would certainly expect them to do so here.
But, beyond past history, no.
q For, then, for new teachers to have no experience
is there any other way to m a k e this judgment?
A Ho.
Q What individuals in your department participate
R I C H A R D S M T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T t H
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
in this evaluation and this subjective judgment?
A Hr. Janes interviews practically everyone who
applies to the City schools. At times when he is overworked,
I do some of the interviewing, and Mrs. Looney who is the
director of classified and who formally worked with the
professional personnel does some interviewing. Interviewing -j-
interviewing is important, but there are very few people who
can not convince you of anything in a 30-minute interview.
And, we look at the college reoord. We pay
particularly close attention to references that are professionial
i- type references, although we look at all of them; but we are
primarily interested in experience reference, student teaching
ii references, and references of people who are fairly closely
i , associated with them in college environments.
n, And, the interview, being our judgment of the
17 person in person, these things are all taken into consideration,
is Normally, Mr. James will bring me a person'i application --
i<» completed application with a paper on the front saying that
._>o he recommends the person to be employed. I look the applicatijon
over and practically always concur with him.
And then assignment is a mutual teamwork almost
with Mr. James and me when we sit down and make assignments.
Q All right. You say if you were employing an
English teacher, would you use the supervisor in the judgment
Heuatess - Direct 956
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U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Heustess - Direct 957
process with regard to whether or not they are willing to
teach in crossover situations? Would you use anyone else
other than Mr. James and yourself?
A We have almost gone out of the business of
raultiple interviews, and this is what you are getting at.
Q Then, do you discuss their reaction to the question
whether or not they will teach in a crossover situation in
order to make this?
A Mr. James and I discuss it, you mean?
Q And anybody else?
A No, this is almost a judgment between us.
0 I see.
A In our office, almost entirely.
Q In the last year, have you had any white applicants
that have refused to say that they were willing to teach
across race lines?
A Yes.
Q have you had — how many, approximately?
A I had one the other day. I havo no Idea how many.
Q Have you had any black applicants that ---
A (Interposing) Not that I know of.
Q None that you know of? All right. What kinds of
reactions have you had now in the assignment process with
reference to securing the concurrence of principals in your
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
lieustess - Direct 958
crossover assignments?
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to thii a s being i i r e l e V A M j t .
TUL Cf.vjRT: He may answer.
THE WITNESS: Many of our principals are very
agreeable when we have crossover assignments. Many of them
are suspicious when it comes to crossover assignments. I
have not had anyone refuse. I have had to conjole, use some
pressure indirect or direct with them in many instances. It
has been a time-consuming process in many instances.
BY MR. WITT:
Q Dr. Heustess, this is a little bit awkward, but
it's occurred to me as necessary. You are white?
A Yes.
Q The record will not show that if I do not ask you
that question.
Now, have you had situations within the last year
where you have overruled a principal and not secured his
concurrence or her concurrence, again, all in the crossover
assignment situation?
A I believe I have argued with them until I
convinced them.
Q Now, in preparation for your testimony, have you
prepared any statistical data to indicate the current status
of desegregating teaching staffs at various schools?
H I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R F P O R T L R
U N I T F I ) S T A F F S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Heustess - Direct 959
A I had my secretary make a percentage compilation,
school by school, I think, was about three weeks ago.
Q Do you have a copy of that with you?
A Yes.
Q What would this indicate that the professional
staff as it now exists — excuse me. What is the effective
date of this Information?
A April 1, I believe.
Q All right. Does it — what is your definition of
professional staff that was used?
A This did not include itinerant personnel.
Q Would you go ahead?
A I do not believe that it included social workers,
but it included all of the regularly assigned full-time
classroom teachers, administration, librarians, and guidance
personnel.
Q All right. Would you describe that itinerant
personnel?
A People who move from school to school.
Q This would include what kind of activities, what
kind of responsibility would these people --
A (Interposing) 24usic, art, Russian teacher,
for instance.
Q All right. Now, what does that indicate with
R I C H A R D S M I T H . O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Heustess Direct 960
reference to Brainerd High School as to the percentage
desegregation?
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, if this
is written formally, wonder if we could be furnished a copy of
it and if the Court could be furnished a copy and eliminate
the time involved in reading off this information school by
school?
MR. WITT: I don't intend to read them off school
by school, but only to show representative samples.
THE COURTi You have an exhibit?
MR. WITT; Yes, I will make this an exhibit.
THE COURT: All right. Sixty-eight — sixty-nine.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
69 for identification. Witness Mr.
Heustess, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. V/ITT;
Q You have any other copies? I don't.
MR. WILLIAMS: You will let me lave it later?
MR. WITT: Don't let me forget it.
BY MR. WITT:
Q Dr. Heustess, please examine this list and identil)
any particular significant facts as you see them — for example,
excuse me, mention the schools that have no desegregated
faculty.
A We don't have any schools with no desegregation of
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
faculty.
0 All right. What schools have only one member of
the opposite race teaching in a school?
A Brainerd Junior — I really don’t know how to
classify Aianicola right now.
Q Beg your pardon?
A Don't know how to classify Amnicola, but Amnicola
has one white and four blacks. It was formerly a white school
Davenport has one white. Hemlock, one white.
Heustess - Direct 961
Q Hemlock?
A Hemlock.
Q How many teachers in Hemlock?
A Eleven, total.
Q Eleven?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
Q All right.
A Pineville, one black. RiVermont
Q (Interposing) How many teachers?
A Seven.
Q All right.
A iliVermont, one black out of twenty-one. Smith,
one wnite out of thirteen.
Q All right, all right. Wow, can you explain the
fact that - do you have an explanation for the fact that
R I C H A R D S M I T H . O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
]
I
.
III
I[
I
(,
in
11
lL>
1!
14
i:»
Hi
17
IS
If
I 'll
2\
Brainerd Junior Uigh School has only o m black teacher on the
faculty?
Heustess - Direct 962
A An extremely stable staff so far, I only have
one resignation from Brainerd Junior for next year.
Q Then, does this mean that in this policy that
we have previously referred to that this policy had something
to do with — have anything to do with resignations and
vacancies?
A Vacancies that the crossover would be done in
vacancies as they came about.
U And, in no other situation, only in vacancies?
Was that the policy as you understood it?
A As I understood it.
Q All right, all right. Now, moving — and Brainerd
is a substantially all-white junior high school, is that
correct?
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
This is correct.
How, move to Davenport.
Yes, sir.
Why is there only one white teacher in this school
Davenport also is a very stable school.
Is Davenport desegregated?
I do not believe that it is.
Is it all black or all white?
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
ileus tea s - Direct 963
A All black.
q All right, air. how, the next school is Hemlock.
Is this an elementary school?
A Hemlock is an elementary school.
q All right. Do you know its racial composition?
A Predominantly white. The re are sons black children,
but I don’t know how many.
q All right. What is the explanation for there
only being one black teacher at Hemlock?
A I would assume probably the sama thing, Mr. Witt.
I don’t remember anything specific about staffing of Hemlock.
q All right. Since you have been here?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
Q All right, sir. Now, Pineville, do you know why
there is only one white — black teacher at Pineville?
A No, I don’t. Again, I have to assume about the
same thing.
q bo you — has a vacancy occurred at Pineville since
you have been here?
A Yes, vacancy has occurred at Pineville just this
year, which — because of other things that — overriding had
absolutely nothing to do with race, I ended up putting a whit^
teacher into that situation.
q Do you care to give those reasons?
H I C H A I J D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
lieustess - Direct 964
10
11
in
17
18
10
L'O
•J1
A Had a teacher who was a probationary teacher. She
came to us with about, oh, I don't remember, several years oX
experience that had been highly successful experience, working
across cultural lines. She was placed in a school as a cross
racial teacher and she was experiencing tremendous difficulti
in that school.
We were faced with the necessity either of dismissing
this particular teacher or finding another location for her.
In our estimation, she was a person who should be given an
opportunity to perform in a different situetion and we did so
by placing her at Pineville.
Q Was she on probation?
A Site's a probationary teacher, yes.
Q All right. Now, address your attention to RiVer
mont. Is RiVermont a desegregated elementary school?
A Faculty has one black. I don't believe there are
any black students at RiVermont.
Q But Exhibit 3 indicates that RiVermont — 561
whites, so -- all right. Now, what’s the explanation of only
one black teacher at Ri Vermont?
Well, there were two last September.
In September?
In September, tbeeo were two and one of them
A
Q
A
transferred out to another position. And, well, we replaced
R I C H A R O S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Ueustess - Direct 965
her with a white teacher. I cannot give you the reason for
doing so right now.
Q Do you remember the reason for the black teacher
requesting a transfer out?
A Yes, sir.
Q would you mind stating it?
A She had had some difficulty in dealing with parentis
and -- and the children. She had sent scsne communications hoafe
that were very poorly thought out, rather poor judgment, and
the situation had become such in that community that to continue
this person there would have, in my estimation, caused more
harm than transferring her and there was a place that was oper
at that time where I could transfer her, and I did so.
Q Did this teacher request a transfer?
A I would have to check back, Mr. Witt. This was iii
September, but as I remember, Rivermont was projected to have
more students than they ended up with, which meant that they
had to lose a teacher.
And, this all came about roughly shortly following
the tenth day, and as I remember, when I called and asked the
principal to identify a teacher to be lost, he identified thi^
particular one. I was already aware of this situation and
really concurred, although in any situation where the teacher
was not having problems, I would not have concurred in
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T l . R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
iieustess - Direct 966
identifying a crossover teacher as a minus position.
Q You referred to losing a teacher. Hew did this
come about?
A Well, the schools are staffed oa the basis of
the number of students in accordance with the ratio that the
State Department has in its rules and regulations. If we
project 600 students at a school and only 550 show up, then
we have staffed on the basis of 600 projection. Then, they
are overstaffed and we have to try to utilise that teacher
somewhere that — where she is needed.
q Did the principal recoraoend that this crossover
teacher be transferred?
A As I remember, he did.
Q Okay. Now, to the Smith School, what is its
racial composition?
A I think that Smith is an entirely black student
oody.
Q All right. Do you have an explanation for the
fact that there is only one white teacher on the faculty at
Smith?
A Don 't remember.
Q All right, sir. How, refer you to your last
exhibit again. Do you have -- please identify the schools
that have the largest percentage of faculty desegregation.
R I C H A R D S M I T H . O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Heustess - Direct 967
A
all.
In the high schools — well, the high schools are
THE COURT* Wonder if this night be an appropriate
place to interrupt the examination of this witness and take the
noon recess?
MR. WITT: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Very well. Be in recess until 1:20
today -- noon recess until 1:20.
(Thereupon, the noon recess was taken.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(Thereupon, pursuant to the noon recess, court
was convened at 1:20 o’clock, p.ts., and the following proceedings
were had and evidence introduced, to-vit;)
JAMES HENRY MEUSTESS,
resumed the stand and testified further as ollows;
DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued)
BY MR. W ITT ;
Q Here is an additional copy of the Exhibit 69. Dr.
Heustess, I believe we were going to identify the desegregation —
extent of desegregation of faculty on high school levels at t)<
time we adjourned for lunch.
Would you please indicate the degree of desegrega
tion in high schools with regard to —
A (Interposing) Well, so far as percentage goes,
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all fairly close in numbers of crossovers — percentage of
crossovers. Brainerd is, I guess, in best shape with 80.9
percent white teachers and 17.4 percent black. You want —
Q (Interposing) Chattanooga High School.
A Chattanooga, 86.9 to 13.1 black Howard, 13.1
to 85.2. By the way, sceae of these don't add up to 100 becauaje
there's a vacancy or there was when it was tabulated.
0 All right.
A Kirkman, 88.3 to 11.7, black; and Riverside, 15.5
to 82.3.
ileustess - Direct 968
Q All right. The figure on Howard High for black
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A (Interposing) 85.2.
Q 85.2? All right. Did any vacancies occur at
Brainerd High School after the close of last year, academic
year, 1970?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were they filled with black teachers?
A I believe several of them were, not all of them --
several of them.
Q Can you — do you recall the cicountstancea under
which this did not — this did not take place; that is, the
time when a vacancy occurred at Brainerd when a black teacher
was not assigned to fill that vacancy?
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A The one incident that I can recall had to do with
a coaching position, and the people at Brainerd had a person
whom they desired very much to go into that spot. And, in the
final analysis, we did agree to elect that person.
Q You say —
A (Interposing) There were a few others, but none
of them were traumatic enough for me to remember.
Q But, then, are you saying that in these instances,
the Board*s — the policy was not followed or that you were
not able to follow it?
A In this particular instance, we could have followed
this procedure, but we did not. I don’t remember any of the
other specific instances, Mr. Witt.
Q All right. Well, do you recall the employment of
or the transfer of Mrs. Patty Carter from Riverside to Braineijd?
A Yes, sir, I do. Mrs. Carter was business educa
tion teacher. Their business education pre-enrollment was
such that 3he — that her particular position was a minus
position.
Q I beg your pardon, a what?
A Was a minus position; that is, there were not
enough students enrolled to fill her class, as I recall. And,
we had to transfer her somewhere else.
. <#*
Q So, she was transferred from Riverside to Brainerc
Heustess - Direct 969
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Heustess - Direct 970
High, is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right. Now, what about Mrs. Bell?
A Mrs. Bell?
Q Excuse me. Mrs. Patsy Carter a white or a black?
A I think she’s white.
0 All right. What about Mrs. Jessie Bell?
A Mrs. Bell, as I remember, an English teacher at
Riverside who applied for and was chosen to be a member of the
CLUE project at Brainerd High School.
Q Would you state what you mean by the CLUE project?
Is that (spelling) C-l-u-e?
A Capital C, capital L — all of them, U-E.
Q What —
A (Interposing) Concerned Leadership for Urban
Education, I believe, is what it stands for. It is a federal
project state-wide in four cities in the state. Its purpose
is to bring about better racial tinderstanding in schools that
axe integrated, as I understand. We do have people on our —
in our school system who are on the board of that, and I am
not.
Q All right. Incidentally, Dr. Heistess, in filling
vacancies, do you have any order of priority with reference
to teachers already employed in the system at some other sciioo1 ?
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Let's assume you have a vacancy, again, in Brainerjd
High which we are discussing.
A Uh-huh.
0 And that -- and under the Board policy, as I
understand it, that should he filled by a black teacher if
at all possible. You also, do you not, also have teachers
that desire to transfer from tine to tine?
A We have teachers who desire to transfer, also
have teachers who are returning frora leave of absence. In
filling vacancies, we try to place teachers who desire to
return from leave first since this is our -- we have an obliga
tion to these people.
Next, wo place — we do the transferring — each
transfer is looked at on an individual basis. The fact that
a teacher asked for a transfer is by no means a guarantee
that she will get one. We consider the reasons. We consider
what it will do to the school she is transferring from, what
it would do to the school where she wants to go, where there
are vacancies ~~ great many things enter irto transfer busines
0 All right. In implementing the policy that you
have described, assume that this vacancy at Brainerd — that
for the vacancy at Brainerd there was a qualified black teacho
available that was a new employee and also a qualified white
teacher that was returning from leave of absence. Bow would
Qeustess - Direct 971
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Ileus teas - Direct 972
you resolve that problem with reference to the policy that
you fire operating under?
A Well, Mr. Witt, I guess that wt already had
employed black teacher that would be a different situation
because then we would have to find a place for her, too.
But, if — we employ very, very few secondary
school teachers without knowledge of a vacancy. Now, we
don't necessarily employ them for a specific vacancy, but at
least we try to keep tabs. We would not employ a person to
fill a vacancy if we had a person coming back from leave who
needed to go to that vacancy.
Q Then, you would be giving the preference to the
teacher returning from leave regardless of race?
A We have to.
Q All right. Now, at Brainerd, do you recall the
employment of the transfer in Wilbert Roberts?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is Mr. Roberts black or white?
A Mr. Roberts is black.
Q Where was he transferred from, if you know?
A Elementary school, maybe Joseph E. Smith or
Davenport. I don't remember.
Q Now, with reference to any of the other vacancies
at Brainerd High last year that were not filled by a black
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Ileu8tess - Direct 973
teacher, do you recall any explanation for this failure to
employ or assign a black teacher?
A Just look -- just looking down the list, I can
see two and possibly three.
Q All right, sir.
A I finally found the list.
MR. WILLIAMS; May it please the Court, so that I
may follow, I notice that both Dr. Heustess and Mr. Witt are
referring to a written document. Could that be identified so
that I could follow them?
MR. WITT; I think Dr. Heustess is referring to
one and I are referring to another. I intend to introduce this
record by the man who prepared it at the appropriate time.
MR. WILLIAMS; All right, sir. I thought perhaps
I might have a copy of it.
MR. WITT; I will give you a copy of it for now.
TILE WITNESS: I think I am using -- has already
been furnished.
BY MR. WITT:
Q You might tell us what you are working then from,
Doctor.
A
Q
A
Staff desegregation report.
That has not yet been introduced?
I am sorry.
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Heustess - Direct 974
Q It's a little bit out of order, but it was not
prepared by Dr. Heustess, but I am prepared to go ahead and
introduce it now. Dr. Heustess, I hand you a document
entitled ’Chattanooga Public Schools, Chattanooga, Tennessee,
Statistical Reports on Staff Desegregation, Chattanooga Public
Schools, 1970-71. ** Dated October the 16th, 1970, labeled,
rConfidential."
Would you make this an exhibit to your testimony?
A Yes, sir.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
70 for identification, Witness Mr.
Heustess, and received in evidence.)
MR. WILLIAMS: Could I be furnished a copy of
that?
HR. WITT: Yes, just give me time.
Prior to proceeding with Dr. Heustess on this
point, this document, prepared by — under the supervision of
Mr. Taylor and will be explained in detail how it was put
together and what it means; but I eta merely referring to the
current year with which Dr. Heustess is familiar.
BY MR. WITT:
0 All right. Dr. Heustess, the other two vacancies
at Brainerd?
A Yes, sir. Miss Evelyn Kennedy — was a Latin
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Heustess - Direct 975
teacher.
<«r What?
A Latin teacher.
0 Yea, sir.
A *3 I remember, we didn't fii*d her until maybe the
day before school started. And, we employel her as quickly
as possible. Mr. Sullenger —
Q (Interposing) Pardon me, Doctor, why wasn't that
vacancy filled with a black teacher?
A Mo Latin — no black Latin applicants.
Q All right, air. Proceed.
Q Mr. W. R. Sullenger, Industrial Arts. At the time
vacancy was filled, we had no black industrial arts applicants
This vacancy was filled toward the end of the summer with Mr.
Preston was pulled from the industrial arts to be dean of
students. And, I think that I remember that Mr. Prank Judea
was employed either at the beginning or shortly after the
beginning of school to teach mathematics, I believe. And,
again, shortage of applicants.
Q You mean there wasn't a qualified black math
teacher to take that job at the time?
A If there was — if there was, wa judged that Mr.
Judea's qualifications are such that — that this was the
prudent thing to do.
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Ileustesa - Direct 976
Q Are you saying that —
A (Interposing) I don't remember.
Q (Continuing) — prudent in what respect?
A I don't remember if there were — if there were
any black mathematics applicants at that time, then for some
reason we judged Mr. Judea's application to be sufficiently
better as to outweigh the racial —
Q (Interposing) This would be your interpretation
of the substantially equal ability aspect of the operational
policy?
A Yes, sir.
Q I see, all right, sir. Now, direct your attention
to the vacancies that existed at Brainerd High School following
the close of the academic year, 1970 and prior to the opening
of the academic year, '70-71?
A You mean —
Q (Interposing) What vacancies at City High School
were not filled by black teachers?
A Mrs. Kathleen Harris was transferred in from
Howard High School.
Q Kathleen Harris black or white?
A White.
Q All right.
A Mrs. Sue Hartman was a new employee. Mr. Carl C.
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Jonas was a new employee. Mr. Nolan McGaughey was transferred
in from Howard Junior High School. He is black.
Self, Gordy, Guedron, Trent, Bradshaw, and Norris
were all new employees at Chattanooga High.
Q All right. And, Mrs. LaGrande Bettis was transfeijred
into Chattanooga High School from Riverside, is that correct?
A Ye3, sir.
Q Mrs. Bettis white?
A Mrs. Bettis is black.
0 All right. Now, why was the vacancy created —
why was the vacancy which Mrs. Harris filled not filled with
a black teacher?
A Mrs. Harris was a probationary teacher completing
her first year at Howard. She had experienced considerable
difficulty in her year's work at Howard. A person whom we
thought might have better success in a different type school,
and in the consultation with the principal, we decided that
it would be best to transfer her from Howard for this year.
Heuatess - Direct 977
Q
A
Q
judgment?
A
Q
The principal at Howard is Mr. Hendrix?
Yes.
Did you concur in his judgment or was it a joint
It was joint judgment.
Did Mrs. Harris request the transfer?
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A i don' t remember whether she requested it or not.
This really wasn't — wasn't the point here.
Q Do you recall whether or not this was her first
experience teaching across racial lines?
A I think it was her first experience teaching acrosB
race lines, although she had worked at the University of
Chattanooga at some tine in sene sort of work study program;
but whether this was across racial lines or not, I do not knew.
0 All right. Now, again, Dr. Heustess, I am only
directing your attention at the vacancies at City High School
that were not filled by blacks.
And, I would like, if you recall the explanation
for why this was not effected, and I would like for the Court
and the record to reflect those circumstances.
Mrs. Sue Hartman, now.
A I recall specifically only -- well, I do several
of them. I think as I remember, Edith Self is a Spanish
teacher. And, at the time that we filled this vacancy, there
was no black certified Spanish. There were several whites, ani
we chose the one whom we considered best qualified for the
job. I believe that was Mis3 Self, the situation did happen.
Mr. Gordy is teaching mathematics. Some of it is
advanced as I remember. Last year w*. experienced a real
shortage of mathematics teachers. Strangely, that's not true
Heustess - Direct 978
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this year, but it was last year arid we just employed a math
teacher there.
The same thing is true with Mr. Trent, Mr. Guedron
I believe is biology or social studies teacher, but his primarjy
reason for being there is as a coach. Mr. Guedron had taught
for us for several years at Brainerd Junior High School; althcjugh
we did not transfer him, he quit for a short time, but he was,
I guess, a unanimous choice of the people involved at City to
fill this space, because of his broad experience in the field
of coaching.
U All right. You say —
A (Interposing) I will say to you in this instance
I -- we probably never told the people at City about this,
but there is a gentleman in Clarksville whon we tried to emplcfy
frora the Clarksville school system to come here and our
intention was to place him in this position.
0 Was he black or white?
A lie was black, but he couldn’t be enticed away froa
Clarksville.
Q All right. Then, as I understand your testimony,
you are saying — are you saying that with regard to vacancies
at City High School there were no blacks available for the
particular subjects that were to be taught by teachers filling
the vacancies?
Heustess - Direct 979
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Heustcss - Direct 980
A On the ones that I have mentioned, these are the
ones that I remember.
Q All right. Now, which one did you not mention,
Mrs. Hartman?
A I don't remember anything about Mrs. Hartman.
Don't remember anything about Carl. Oh, he is the band --
Q (Interposing) What?
A The bandmaster, the band teacher.
Q I see.
A And, this was lief ore my day. I don't know anyth!
about Mr. Jones' employment.
Q Now, as a result of that effort at Chattanooga
High School, that affirmative effort, how many of the —
how many black teachers -- how many black teachers were
increased at City High School as compared with the previous
year?
A Three came in and as I remember, we lost one,
that was a net of two.
q Net of two?
A Yea, sir.
q Black teachers? All right. Now, let's direct
our attention to Kirkman.
A Well ~
Q (Interposing) How many —
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Heustess Direct 981
A (Continuing) people transferred in.
Q How many?
A Five people were transferred in.
Q All right.
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please thu Court, I wonder,
are we going to go over this for all forty-seven schools, is
that the intention of counsel? That seems to me to be
irrelevant to any issue here and a very time-consuming thing.
MR. WITT: May it please the Court, we axe here
charged with not making an affirmative effort to desegregate
the <acuity of this school system, end faculty happened to
be employed one at a time and I know of no other way to attemg t
to meet your charge.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, if the Court please, the
statistics reflect the number of teachers that they have in
each school, black or white.
MR. WITT; May it please the Court, the Board is
charged with an affirmative obligation and effort, not a
result based upon numbers.
MR. WILLIAMS: If the Court please, as I understaid
it, the obligation of the School Board is to remove racial
identifiability in the school. The question of why they
assigned a particular to a school — a particular teacher to
a school is irrelevant, it seems to me, with regard to that
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Heustess - Direct 982
issue.
MR. WITT: May it please the Court, we are only
explaining why we were unable within our resources to employ
more black teachers to teach in formerly all-white schools.
TUB COURT: Rather than taking up each teacher
one at a time, are you not in position to say which ones were
.1
employed by reason of their race and which ones were not
employed or assigned by reason of their race?
MR. WITT: The effort is to indicate that each
vacancy that occurred, major effort was made to assign across
race lines.
*
THE COURT: Well, rather than taking up — if
you wish to proceed in this manner, take up each vacancy, you
will be permitted to do so; on the other hand, if the witness
Y
is in a position to tell us whether that would be true in eacl
instance, he can so testify. Or, if there are exoeptions to
. «
that, then he should identify those exceptions.
MR. WITT: Well, may it please the Court, I am
attempting to get — identify only the exceptions.
MR. WILLIAMS. of course, the point is, if Your
Honor please, apparently they are taking — they are taking — •
this examination is proceeding on the hypot lesis that the
only way to eliminate segregation in staff and faculty is to
assign across race lines as vacancies occur, which is not truit.
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Heusteas - Direct 983
Of course, if they want to develop that line of the line of
proof to show that in an effort to assign — effectuate the
integration by that fashion, they did it in this way. X don't
see the point in their going over every teacher to try to point
out that in this particular case we tried to assign this teach sr
to this vacancy because she was blade or white.
It setnas that it's a sufficient supposition of
that point of view to say we limited our efforts to the
assignment of teachers across — across race lines where new
vacancies occurred and this is as far as w were able to go
in that regard.
MR. WITTi May it please the Court, if we stated
* it-
that, then we would be charged with sene instance in which we
hadn't done it. I an giving Mr. Williams an opportunity now
that we attempted to get him by interrogatories to get him to
identify these situations, and now if there is one, a single
time this last year of the 191 teachers that were hired, that
were hired on a racial basis, that were hired not consistent
with that Board policy* I don't want to be in a position of
there being one or two cases and he indicating that we have
not done what we said.
THE COURT: Mr. Beustess has indicated in several
instances where a crossover was not effected upon the hiring
of a new teacher, that it was because a person was not
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HeusteS3 - Direct 984
available of the other race. Now, rather than taking each
instance in which that occurred up one at a time, can you not
just point out the occasions when that was not the explanation
If you have caaes where you did not cross over and it was not
because a person was not available of the opposite race, why
not discuss those and all others will be cases in which there
was not an applicant available; and perhaps that can shorten
this.
?
MR. WITT: That's a good suggestion, should have
thought of it myself.
BY MR. WITT:
Q Dr. ileustess, did you understand the Judge's
comment?
A Yes, I understand.
Q All right.
A Be much shorter but much more difficult to do.
I remember immediately one situation with a vacancy at Piney
Woods.
Q Now, if I may, let's at least — let’s stick to tĴ e
order that we started with -- high schools. Let's take the
schools one at a time and they will be in front of you and tĥ .s
will help you to — and I direct your attention to Kirkuan.
A I don't -- yes. There are thres coaching spots
at Kirkman. We filled one with a black and two with whites.
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lleustess - Direct 985
I don't remember exactly, but let’s see, this is the reason —
this is difficult to do.
In the back of my mind is the idea when we filled
the second one of those, we could have done 30 with another
black coach but decided not to simply because there are
relatively few blacks at Kirkman and to hav > ai overbalanced
coaching staff might not be what we wanted.
Q Do you know the racial composition of the coaching
staff at Kirkman now?
A Well, there are three new ones and — and the
head coach is white, so that would be three to one, so far as
I know -- three whites to one black.
Q All right.
A Mr. Lambert is a new member of the coaching staff
there.
Q All right. Does that — then the policy was
followed, are you saying that the policy was followed at
Kirkman with those exceptions?
A So far as I remember.
Q All right.
A Brainerd Junior, we were looking for a specific
type of person. This person not only is teaching four subjects
but is running school business affairs and is bookkeeper and
We Wo ;ed someone if possible with business experience.
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deustess - Direct 98C
This lady showed up and did not object too
strenuously when she heard what her assignment would be, and
we employed her.
0 Was she black, or white?
A She's white.
Q All right. Now, Dalewood Junior.
A Dalewood, I don't remember.
Q All right.
A Anything about any of those.
Q All right.
A Yes, I do. Frances brown was a math teacher.
As I stated, there is a shortage of math teachers. That's all
1 remember about her.
Q All right. East Lake Junior.
A i don't remember.
0 All right. East Side Junior High School.
A 1 don't remember anything about these. Mr. Witt,
this, what I call an operative procedure and you call a policy,
had it been a written Board policy such as, for instance,
everY teacher must have a bachelor's degree, X would remember
any time I broke it, because I would break it with trepidation.
But, at least in ray policy book, there is no such policy. Anc,
1 regarded this as a guideline under which to operate.
Q Well, Dr. Iieustess, I am merely trying to identify
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those instances in which the policy as you see it was not
followed and to secure an explanation of each exception if
you remember it.
THE COURT; Hell, when the exception is due to the
fact the applicant is not available.
THE WITNESS: All right. I rerember nothing that
would be exceptional about East Lake or East Side. Hardy --
how it finally turned out -- but at Hardy we were fighting a
ratio business anyway. As it finally turned out, we ended up
v/ith only 41 percent whites and 55 percent blacks and we could
have used another white at Hardy.
BY MR. WITT:
Heustess - Direct 987
Q Those percentages refer to students or faculty?
A No, faculty — faculty.
Q Do you know the percentage breakdown on Hardy of
students, black and white?
A At the end of last year, I think it was about
60, 65 percent black.
0 And the principal is black or white?
A He is now white.
0 What was he last year?
A White.
Q All right, sir.
A Elbert Long was a transfer. At Lookout, again, we
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lieuates3 - Direct
are watching ratio.
0 What do you mean watching ratio?
A Trying to keep — not going too far over 50-50,
one way or another.
Q Why?
A Well, because I have been aware of the way that
the courts have been holding. And, can see no sense in letting
a school get out of balance if it had one been somewhere
approximately balanced.
And so, when it reached something approximating
60-40, 50 percent, then we started watching for — do not let
it flip.
Q You mean you are attempting to act in such a way
as to maintain stability of racial composition?
A Somewhat, yes.
Q With regard to students?
A Not students. I don't h
Q With regard to faculty?
A Yes, sir.
Q But, doesn't the racial i
have a bearing upon the student body, racial composition of
the student body, a bearing, an influence?
A It would have an influence, yes, sir.
Q All right, all right, go ahead. And, at Lookout
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U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
lleustess - Direct 989
now, you said you were attempting to watch the balance there,
so --
A (Interposing) Yes, we discussed that with the
principal two or three times. I don't know what we ended up
with, 66.7 and 33.3.
0 Now, when you give statistics, you are limiting th|at
to faculty?
A Yea, sir; yes, sir. North Chattanooga.
Q Dr. Heustess, haven't asked you this question. I
should have asked you sometime ago. Do you know the current
ratio of black teachers to white teachers in the City school
aysten?
A So far as teachers go, I believe we have approxi
mately 43 percent black teachers, 57 percent white teachers.
Q All right.
A Overall.
Q 43-57?
uh-huh.
Q All right. Then, with regard to the faculty
at Lookout Junior High School, compare that racial ratio in tl̂ e
system with the ratio in Brainerd — I mean in Lookout Junior
High.
A Well, there are only 11 people on that faculty
and so one person makes a tremendous difference. But, I woul<ll
R l C H A R O S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Heustess - Direct 990]
i
K)
11
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17
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21
24
27)
say that 66-33 is within hitting distance.
Q Would you consider that within hitting distance,
what do you mean by that?
A Of the overall ratio. It's within a reasonable
distance. One person, I guess, would -- one store black, one
fewer white, would have probably made it as perfect as it couljd
got.
0 Thank you, sir. All right. Now, to — going to
Chattanooga Junior High School.
A Both white math teachers and that's all I remember
about that.
0 You are now saying — are you saying now that you
do not remember whether or not there were qualified black
teachers to take those vacancies?
A I do not remember whether there were or not, but
bofort the summer was over, we were employing business educa
tion people to teach mathematics in junior high schools. And
so we used up all of our math applicants whether they were
black or white last summer.
Q But — that's right. But, you did make — did you
make an effort to comply with the policy as you understood
it all through the year?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right, all right. Now, the next school?
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ileus teas - Direct 991l
id
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A Amnicola, very snail faculty and I think at one
tine last year we had that faculty evenly balanced with three
blacks and two whites. It no longer is.
£ What’s the explanation for its failure to maintain
that balance, if you know?
A After school started, one of the white teachers
was experiencing difficulty and we pulled her and put a black
teacher in and, who on the judgment of the principal could
bring sone degree of stability to that class.
Q All right, sir. Now, Avondale.
A Mr. Chambers was employed before I got here last
year. That's beside the point anyway.
Avondale, you will remember that Avondale was
formerly a white school that has so far as students go, that
has now become an all-black school so far as students go. It
then was once an all-white school so far as faculty went. It
is now 42 percent white and 60 percent black, which is an
overbalance and we should have put more whites in that
faculty than we did last summer.
Q But the balance —
A (Interposing) But, as I remember, I did not catch
that overbalance until practically in the beginning of school.
Q In what sense are you using ove rbalance in the
60-40?
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ileus tess - Direct 992
A I « using overbalance in the 6C-40, in the way
that it was in the context of the Montgomery decision in
which they were —
0 (Interposing) Excuse me, go ahead.
A In which they were told to ratio every faculty in
the system at the same ratio as the total white teachers were
to the total black teachers. And in Montgomery there happened
to be 60-40 and it is roughly that here.
Q How far away were you from your goal in Avondale
in students — I M a n in teachers? Wouldn't have one teacher
made the difference. Dr. ileus tess?
A Probably it may have taken two. Now, Avondale is
one of our larger schools with 27 total faculty. And, to have
become 60 percent might have taken two additional white
teachers. I don't know, I'd have to have my calculator to
figure that.
Q All right. Next, Barger.
A Yes. Mrs. Shaeffer is a kindergarten teacher.
We had employed a black kindergarten teacher and she resigned.
Mrs. Shaeffer, we picked up toward the end of the summer. I
don11 remember whether another black kindergarten teacher was
available or not.
Q But, two black teachers were added to that staff
that year?
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Heustess - Direct
A Yes, sir, throe.
Q Three?
A One transferred in
Q Well, now, Mrs. Sh.
i V Mrs. Shaeffer, oh,
added three , one of them resign
two.
993
Ily
g Then all of the vacancies at Barger were filled by
black teachers?
Yes, I guess so.
Is this correct? G. Russell Brown.
G. Russell Brown, I don't remember anything one
A
Q
A
way or the other there.
Q All right. Cedar Hill?
A Mrs. Cooper is an EMR teacher. There were no
EMR applicants last year who were certified as she is.
Q All right. Dr. Heustess, for the record, what
is EMR?
A Education for mentally retarded.
Q Is this a special certification?
A Very special.
Q Continue, please, sir.
A Cedar Hill, I don't remember anything about any
of the rest of these. Cedar Hill in all likelihood, we could
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have gotten an additional black teacher for Cedar Hill.
Probably we should have.
Q What is your explanation why we did not?
A I do not have one. I don't remember anything
about —
Q (Interposing) All right. See there's six vacancies
at Clifton Hills?
A Yes, sir.
Q Only one black teacher was assigned?
A That's right. I remember about two of these
people who were there were two of them and don't remember
which two, Mr. Witt, who had done their student teaching at
Clifton Hills. Clifton Hills was a slightly unusual program
for our system at any rate. It is a, you know, the building
is one without, basically, without walls, with large construc-
tural spaces, and we have been attempting to develop a program
there of center instruction with teachers working in teams,
in language art teams, mathematics teams, this sort of thing.
Two of these people were people who had done their
student teaching in the school and the principal specifically
requested these people. They did have good applications and
we did employ them.
U And they were white?
A I don't remember. I think one of them may have bden
Heustess - Direct 994
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one of tne blacks, I just don't remember.
0 Eastdale?
A I don't remember about Mrs. Brown. At Garber —
q (interposing) Let's go back to Eastdale. What
was the gain and loss in teaching across race lines at Eastdalje?
A Well, we gained two blacks and one white. I don't
remember what we lost. I don't knew.
q All right. Thank you, all right. Garber?
A The only one I know about at Garber is Mrs. Evans.
She's a Headstart teacher. I believe she was employed before
1 got there.
Q Well, Headstart teacher, a specially certified
teacher, certified?
A No, they are not. Probably should be, but —
G (Interposing) Are they specially trained?
A They c o m under a different program in our school.
q All right, sir.
A At Glenwood, I don't think there's anything that
I can say about that. There is nothing that 1 remember to sayf.
Q Glenwood, I believe, is now substantially all black
as far as students are concerned?
A Yes, it is.
0 How many white teachers did you assign to Avondale
1 mean, to Glenwood, last year?
Keustess - Direct 995
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Heustess - Direct 996
A Oh, we have five whites and four blacks for a
55-44 ratio.
Q So Glenwood is racially balanced?
A As I understand the term.
Q All right, sir, all right. Hemlock?
A One of the people that we show at Hemlock is --
as an additional person is actually a program developer and
is not a classroom teacher.
And, the other two, I don't have any — I don't
remember anything about it.
Q All right. Apparently you had three vacancies at
Highland Park. You had four vacancies and they were filled
with three whites and one black?
A Yes, sir. And, again, I can remember no specific
reason for not filling them all with — at least one more with
a black — one more would have nearly made the difference in
Highland Park. They are currently 71 to 28.
Q What is that percentage, you say 71 to 28, excuse
me. All right.
A Missionary Ridge, we only remember two vacancies
at Missionary Ridge. 1 don't know when that third one occurr4d
This, by the way, this report is from the tenth day of one
school year to the tenth day of the other. I only cover about
four months of that.
Q All right. Thank you for making that — I should
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A (Interposing) At Missionary Ridge we filled it
with one black and one white. Normal Park, I remember nothing
unusual about any of those, same at Oak Grove. Same for Pine-
ville.
RiVermont is the school where %ls certainly should
have done more about increasing the number of black teachers
last year.
Q You have an explanation why this did not occur?
A I cannot give any sort of explanation why this
did not occur, no, sir. I have a specific knowledge as to
why we assigned one of these white teachers at RiVermont.
She happens to be a lady who transferred in with about eight
years of experience with excellent references. She's a top-
notch teacher, judging from everything we can see.
Her child has scene sort of disability and the
reason that she moved here was so the child could be placed
in a school that is roughly across the street from R i Vermont.
And, 3he was either going to come to work for us or going to
go to work for the county and the county could place her there,
and she was a good teacher, and I nabbed her and placed her
at RiVermont. That's the reason she is th<re.
St. Elmo, I don't have to give any explanation
for — at all, because at St. Elmo is right at 64-35, and
it's in good shape.
Heustes3 - Direct 997
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lie us te s s - Direct 998
Sunnyside, I remember one case at Sunnyside where
the principal had a class that was moving up to the aixta
grade, that had had some very unfortunate educational ex
periences according to the principal and had almost gotten
out of hand. And the principal wanted an older teacher who
was capable of getting things straightened out and we did
find an older teacher and employed her. She happened to be
right.
Q What is the racial composition at Sunnyside?
A About 84 white to 15 black. So, it's not good,
and what's more, I don't remember anything about that one.
Q All right. Now, that takes care of the formerly
all-white schools. Now, turn over to the formerly all-black
schools, Dr. Ueustess. No, that's right.
THE COURT: We have been covering both white and
black schools, have we not?
MR. WITT: I believe all of those, Your honor,
were formerly all white. Don't believe —
THE COURT: (Interposing) Certainly covered all
high schools and certainly covered all the junior high schools.
MR. WITT: Elementary schools, I do not believe.
THE WITNESS: The same sort of statements that I
have been saying about the white -- formerly white schools
would be exactly the same kinds of things that I would say
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heustess - Direct. 999
about the black schools
Q well, your specific —
A (Interposing) We have been making an attempt to
bring about greater degree of desegregation when there were
not overriding reasons to do otherwise as we filled vacancies,
both white schools and black schools.
0 Would you point roe to this exhibit where the black
schools are listed? I can’t find it.
A I think what you are looking fcx —
Q (Interposing) That’s all right. Page six of
thirty-three. This indicates to have 16 vacancies in Howard
and under the policy those vacancies should be filled by
whites if at all possible?
A I believe there are eight whiter shown.
0 All right. Mrs. Christine Hicks, without an
explanation, apparently?
A I don't remember anything about her. I remember
that Mrs. Barrow was returning from leave. That’s all I knew
about any of those.
Q What about Leonard Rowe? Doctor, if you don't
remember, that’s all right. I just don’t know.
A I happen to remember about Hr. Rowe. Mr. Rowe was
employed to finish the year and was almost immediately drafted
lie was employed late during the school year and he was
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ileustess - Direct 1 0 0 0
available. No one else vac, so far as I know, at that time.
Q If no one else was available, you don't have to
worry about those.
A Okay.
0 We are assuming that no one else is available
unless you call it to our attention.
A Mrs. Mary Goodloe.
MR. WILLIAMS: I didn't understand that. I
understood that the ones the he didn't have any remarks about,
he just didn't know.
TOE COURT: Well, I had suggested that he, in most
instances, the reason given was that there was not an applicant
of the opposite race available and rather than repeat that with
regard to each one, just go through and pick up those that —
in which they did not use a person of the opposite race and
explain why.
THE WITNESS: Something unusual.
MR. WITT: But I understood as he has been saying
quite frequently is I don't know, tie is not saying that ther<t
was no one else available. He is simply saying he doesn't
remember.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WILLIAMS: I agree with that.
THE WITNESS: Mrs. Goodloe, I remember, because
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Mrs. Goodloe had for several years been the secretary at
Howard Elementary School. During the time she had been
secretary, she had gone to school and become certified and
the principal's recommendation was that ve transfer ner from
classified to professional status, and ve did so.
Q All right. At Riverside, you only have to direct
your attention to, since Riverside is all black, you only have
to direct your attention to James A. Bowles. Mrs. Charlaine
Price, Wilda Bradley, Mrs. Mary Dixon, Mrs. Verdell Martin,
and Mrs. Maggie Pain.
A I have no specific remembrance of any circumstances
surrounding any of those.
Q What was the net result, however, at Riverside
with reference to faculty as compared with £he previous years?
A I don't have —
0 (Interposing) Ail right. Are those joining the
staff?
Heustess - Direct 1 0 0 1
A
Q
A
Four were white and the rest are black.
All right. How, at Alton Park.
Alton Park?
Q For the record, Alton Park Junior High School.
what i3 its racial composition?
A It is black.
0 All black?
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ileus teas - Direct 1002
A I think so, very predominantly, anyway.
THE COURT; Ninety-nine percent.
THE WITNESS; I remember abouv. Mrs. Massey’s
transfer into Alton Park. Mrs. Massey was a home economics
teacher who had been working in a special project on the
elementary level. She wanted back into her field, and there
are practically — there were practically no vacancies in
home economics last year. This was one that was available.
Kenneth Campbell, this is health and education.
And, I think we hired him toward the end of the summer.
I don't remember. We were running very short of health and
phys ed people last summer toward the end of the summer.
BY MR. WITT:
q All right. Orchard Knob?
A Mr. Vaughn is principal. I don't know about Mrs.
Easley. Not much change there.
East Fifth, I do not remember anything about that.
Charles A. Bell, I do remember about one of the black teachers
who was assigned to Bell. Again, she was assignee to a diffeient
program. She was having sufficient problems in that program
that we either had to transfer her or terminate her. It was
a special program so that she was not a tenure person. I did
not feel that this young lady had been given an adequate
opportunity to show whether she could or could not be a teacher
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Heustess - Direct 1003
find I chose to transfer her to a place where I thought she
might have a better chance.
Q What's the racial composition at Bell?
A It's black.
Q Pardon me, faculty?
A Faculty? Thirty white, seventy black.
Q This is one of those situations where one or
two teachers would balance the faculty?
A It's a fairly large school, yeah, probanly so.
She ' 3 the only one I remember.
Q Carpenter --
A (Interposing) Now —
THE COURT: (Interposing) No explanation on
Carpenter. No need for explanation on Carpenter or Davenport.
Let's go to Donaldson.
TliE WITNESS: Mrs. Dorothy Jones is a program
developer and assigned in other ways. At
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) I didn't hear what
the Court said about Carpenter.
THE COURT: Well, Clara Carpenter and Davenport,
according to this record that I have, all white teachers were
employed.
MR. WITT; With one exception.
THE WITNESS: One exception, Carpenter, I don't
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Heustess - Direct 1004
r e m e m b e r t h a t .
M R . W I L L I A M S : L a u r a E d s e l l .
T H E W I T N E S S . L a u r a E d s e l l .
T H E C O U R T : O h , y e s , t h a t ' s o v e r i n t h e o t h e r
c o l u m n .
M R . W I L L I A M S : C l a r a S a a r t t .
T H E C O U R T ; Y e s , I w a s l o o k i n g a t t h e l a s t c o l u m n
T H E W I T N E S S : Y e s , s i r , C l a r a S m a r t t , I b e l i e v e ,
i s a l s o a p r o g r a m d e v e l o p e r . A t D o n a l d s o n , w e e n d e d u p
e m p l o y i n g o n e , t w o , t h r e e — f i v e w h i t e t e a c h e r s t o t h r e e
b l a c k t e a c h e r s a n d d i d n ' t e n d u p s o w e l l o n t h e r a t i o , b u t I
r e m e m b e r s p e c i f i c a l l y a b o u t o n e o f t h e b l a c k t e a c h e r s , l i e i s
a r o a n . T h e b u i l d i n g a t D o n a l d s o n i s s u c h t h a t t h e p r i n c i p a l
s p e c i f i c a l l y w a n t e d a m a n a t o n e o f t h e p o i n t s t o h e l p h i m i n
c o r r i d o r c o n t r o l a n d f o r o t h e r r e a s o n s , h e l p i n g t o c o n t r o l
t h e b o y s . A n d , w e d i d e m p l o y t h i s o n e t e a c h e r — t h e b l a c k
a t D o n a l d s o n f o r t h a t r e a s o n . T h e o t h e r s , I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r
a b o u t .
B Y M F _ W I T T ;
Q D r . H e u s t e s s , w h a t ' s t h e r a c i a l c o m p o s i t i o n o f
t h a t s c h o o l — f a c u l t y , I c a n ’ t r e a d —
A ( I n t e r p o s i n g ) T w e n t y - o n e t o s e v e n t y - n i n e , t w e n t y
o n e w h i t e , s e v e n —
Q ( I n t e r p o s i n g ) T h i s i s a n o t h e r i n s t a n c e w h e r e o n e
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Heustess - Direct 1005
or two teachers could make a difference?
A Yes, sir, they could.
James A. Ilenry, the one who's transferred in was
transferred in from a special program. She wanted to get
into a place where she could work toward tenure. I don't
remember why I didn't put her in another school, but this
was one she ended up being in.
The new employee who is black was elected because
the principal felt, again, a very strong need to have a black,
additional black man on his faculty. This was hi3 specific
request, and we granted it.
Q Is the principal of James A. Henry black?
A Yes, sir. At Orchard Knob Elementary -- well, this
Miss Cummings was the one who wanted to transfer out to James
A. Henry. So, she — she really didn’t stay there.
I have already talked about the other transfer in
which I was discussing RiVermont. Piney Woods, as I said a
few minutes ago, Piney Woods is predominantly — Mrs. — this
i3 Mrs. Garth at Piney Woods, is a specialist in the ipi math
program which —
Q (Interposing) In the what?
A IPI math, individually prescribed instruction
math program which is a special program being carried on at
Piney Woods.
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Heustess - Direct 1006
Mrs. Battle is a specialist in home economics,
in home living. Those are the only two there I remember
anything about.
At Smith, nothing specific nor at Trotter.
Q Believe that completes it, doesn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, Dr. ileustess, in preparing for this testimony,
have you prepared some information with reference to where
tiie school system is at the moment with regard to vacancies
and some other material?
A Yes, sir.
Q I hand ;*ou — hand you written material entitled
Vacancies to Date, 76."
Did you prepare this?
A Yes, I did.
Q Would you make it an exhibit to your testimony,
please?
THE COURT; Seventy-one.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
71 for identification. Witness Hr.
Heustess, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT:
Q Now, explain what this purports to be, Dr.
Heustess.
A Well, obviously I did not intei.d to give this out,
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10
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This was something I did last night, just adding up scxie
things. This shows that to date for next — next September,
we have 76 resignations or retirements. I will skip that
next — well, the less positions, we anticipate anywhere
from 30 to about 42 or 43 minus positions. As it stands with
tuition students remaining in the city of — tuition students
gone that would be down another 32 to 33 positions.
Q Let's explain this. Again, what do you mean?
You expect 42 to 43 minus positions next year?
A Well, this is a terra I have used all along, if
we staff schools according to the number of students who
enroll in the school — because this is the way we get money
f r o t. .e State and if the enrollment after a school drops,
then we have to identify some of the positions as minus positions
not to be refilled the following year.
Q You mean you are now guessing how many children
will be in what schools next year and what grades?
A That's the only way we can staff them. We have to
Q Why are you projecting a minus 42 to 43?
Last year we under -- no, we ov^projected our
enrollment last year. I employed about 30 teachers too many
for last September based on those projections.
On the tenth day, we were down in enrollment
considerably under the projections and I don't remember the
Heustess - Direct 1 0 0 7
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Heustess - Direct 1008
number. Over the year, ve have gradually worked this teacher
overage down to about 15. We now have about 15 over our
normal staffing. We are projecting another thousand loss of
enrollment for next year, add them together, 15 and 30 is
about 45.
Now, why I have not said 45 is that I have tried
to look at how the students will probably be arranged in the
schools, and I can see where I can cut 30 positions easily,
although it's never easy to cut a position. And I can see
where I can cut up to 44 not so easy. This will depend on
budgetary conditions.
Q All right.
A Okay. To date, we have only offered 24 — actually
made offers to 24 people. Seventeen have accepted, ten whites,
seven blacks; two have rejected, one white, one black. And,
five have given us no answer, four whites aid one black.
And, I think those figures are correct, just
a breakdown between white and black. But, when I was preparing
this, I did not have access to records which show race.
Our vacancies are broken down into 35 elementary
vacancies that we know of. And, on April tiie 7th, I had 162
applications, one art vacancy.
Q Dr. Ileustess, before you move on
A (Interposing) Yes, sir.
H I C H A H L ) S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R F P O f - T t h
U N I T E D S I A T F S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
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(j How — how do you age that 162 applications that
you have?
A How do I what?
Q How do you know that these applications, those
people are still available?
A I don't .
Q Do you attempt —
A (Interposing) We automatically purge our active
files of any applications over two years old.
Now, this does not mean that every application
represents an applicant who wants to go to work by any means,
nor all of these applications complete and we will not make an
offer to a person unless his application is complete. I canno
say to you how many of these are employable and only way I
could do it, I guess, would be on the telephone and call each
one of them and say, "Have you gotten a job for next year?"
Many people, however, will apply to us, not
get a job, take a job down in Georgia for a year and then come
back and say, "Have you still got my application? I'd like tc
be considered."
So, we don't throw them away at the end of each
Ileustess - Direct 1009
year
0
A
After my interruption --
(Interposing) Eight English, one social studies
R I C H A H U S M O F K I C I A L C O U R T R t P O R T F P
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
lieustess - Direct 1010
out of 155 applications. There was some talk earlier about
that shortage of teachers, one sociology-psychology position,
four math, one biology, one general science, one Spanish,
one Latin, two music -- one of those is strings, three industrial
arts, three special education, three guidance, one social
worker, two girls phys ed, two business, two home ec, one
tailoring, one woodworking, one science-math combination,
one Latin-Spanish-geometry combination, and one Latin-math-
music combination.
And, I would predict that I won't fill either one
of those.
Q Then, your 33 applications that you have for there
are - - I see your Latin, you have 33 applications for music
and your — down at the bottom, I see -* now, do you -- you
referred to Montgomery earlier. Do you know whether or not
Montgomery considered certification in the assignment of
teachers or did it just treat teachers as teachers or do you
know?
A Montgomery hat a very good school system. I would
assume that they did, but I don’t know.
Q Assume they did what?
A Did consider certification.
Q All right. Now, Dr. Heustess, do you see any
particular problems that you are going to face in the next
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t h i r t y t o s i x t y d a y s i n f i l l i n g t h e s e v a c a n c i e s w i t h q u a l i f i e d
p e o p l e ?
A W e l l , I t h i n k f r o m t h i s t a b u l a t i o n i t ' s f a i r l y
o b v i o u s t h a t t h e r e a r e t w o o r t h r e e a r e a s t h a t v e w i l l h a v e
p r o b l e m s .
q W o u l d y o u i d e n t i f y t h o s e ?
A T h e L a t i n . I h a p p e n t o k n o w a b o u t o n e o f t h o s e
L a t i n a p p l i c a t i o n s , a n d i t i s — w e l l , t h e g e n t l e m a n h a s a
j o b e l s e w h e r e . S p e c i a l e d u c a t i o n , g u i d a n c e a l t h o u g h n e w w e
d o n ' t h a v e a n y a p p l i c a n t s w h o a r e c e r t i f i e d i n g u i d a n c e ,
f r e q u e n t l y w e u s e sociology- p s y c h o l o g y m a j o r s i n t h i s g u i d a n c e
a r e a s o t h a t i t ’ s n o t q u i t e a s b a d a s i t l o o k s . B u t l i k e l i h o c a
o f g e t t i n g p r o p e r l y c e r t i f i c a t e d p e o p l e t o m o v e i n t o t h e
g u i d a n c e f i e l d i s r a t h e r s l i x a .
Q Y o u r r e f e r e n c e t o s p e c i a l e d u c a t i o n , i s t h a t a
s p e c i a l l y c e r t i f i e d t e a c h i n g c a t e g o r y ?
A Y e s , s i r .
q W o u l d y o u d e s c r i b e i t b r i e f l y ?
A S p e c i a l e d u c a t i o n , a s I r e m e m b e r , t a k e s a b o u t
2 7 h o u r s o f r a t h e r s t i f f p r e p a r a t i o n t o b e c o m e c e r t i f i e d a n d
t h i s i s i n a d d i t i o n n o r m a l l y t o e i t h e r e l e m e n t a r y o r s e c o n d a r y
o e r t i f i c a t i o n .
q D r . H e u s t e s s , d o y o u r e c a l l — d i d y o u e v e r h a v e
a n y d i s c u s s i o n w i t h D r . L a w r i e w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o w h a t h e
Heustess - Direct 1011
R I C H A R D S M 1 H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T f c D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
exacted of you in the performance of your job with reference
to faculty desegregation?
A Dr. Lawrie and I had a conference concerning this
before I ever came over in which both of us — we mutually
indicated to the other that we felt that the progress in
faculty desegregation had not proceeded as juickly as you
might have hoped in seme instances. And, I understood that
it was his desire that we proceed as quickly as we reasonably
could, adn this also was my desire. This is one of the reasons
why he decided to recommend me for the job.
Q Did you understand — did you have any understanding
with regard to whether or not the Board supported him in this
objective?
A I assume that — I assumed at that time that the
Board supported Dr. Lawrie and I — yes, sir.
Q Has the Board supported you in this activity?
A The Board has supported me in everything that
I have done along this line. I have no complaints at all
from that viewpoint.
Q Yesterday you — were you present when Mr. James
was testifying?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you recall his response to a question and
a question from the Judge with reference to his understanding
Heustesa - Direct 1012
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U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
ileustess - Direct 1013
of the Board's position on desegregation — faculty desegrega
tion?
A 1 remember, I think I remember what you axe talkinjg
about, yes, when Judge Wilson asked him a couple of questions
about plans.
Q Yes.
A Yes, sir.
0 Did you understand that the Board is waiting arocnjd
for tiie Court to tell it what to do?
A Ho, sir; no, sir* no, sir. Hie Board has been
rather solicitous along this line. I have been studying the
situation. When Hr. Jame3 said that we have no plans, we
have not a formally adopted plan to do anything.
I think I have testified as to part of the reason
why already. It has to do with the drop in numbers of teachei
If it Y*ere not for this drop in the number of teachers -- by
the way, we could come up to a reasonable r itio in most of
our elementary schools within this summer's time.
We have talked with people in a great many places,
We know pretty much what the broad guidelines axe. We are
not making any assignments now at all for the Opening of
school for the opening of school for next year except cross
racial assignments. I am not locking us in cm any total
faculty organization for next year because I don't know what
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it's going to be like.
If we lose more teachers, this ;s going to have
an adverse effect. And, also, I would like, before 1 make
any real specific definite plains, I would like sotae sort of
guidance from the Court as to how far and how fast we need
to go. Lacking that, 1 intend to continue moving ahead as
fast as I can under the procedures that have been outlined.
Q Exclusive of an arbitrary assignment of teachers,
do you know of anything that you could have done this last
year to desegregate the faculties of the City school system
at a more rapid rate than what you have done?
MR. WILLIAMS; Of course, I object to the questior,
because any assignment of teachers can be called arbitrary in
the sense of the fact that --i n the sense that an assignment
is an assignment, if Your honor please.
THE COURT: Well, presume what he is referring
to is the direction of the teacher to a particular school
without consulting the teacher and the principal, is that
what you had in mind?
MR. WITT: I am referring to the assignment of a
teacher to a position without securing that teacher's
acquiescence in advance.
iieustess - Direct 1014
THE WITNESS: Or the principal’s?
BY MR. WITT.
' C H A R D S M ' T n O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Q No, I era not saying anything about the principal.
I an talking just about the teacher, with that one limitation,
is there anything else you could have hone?
A Mo, I don't think so.
MR. WITT: No further questions.
THE COURT: All right, let's take a 10-minute
recess.
(Thereupon, a recess was taken.)
Heustess - Direct 1015
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q
A
0
A
Q
A
Mr. Heustess?
Yes, sir.
Do you know when the NTE was first required?
No, sir, I don't.
Was it required when you first came here?
Yes.
Q All right. It is your view, I gather from what
you have said on direct examination, that the use of the NTE
might well impede the recruiting and the employment of black
teachers because of its cultural slanting?
A It might if you paid any attention to it, yes, siij,
Q And, of course, in the hands of a director --
of an assistant superintendent, in the hands of staff personn4l
of a less objective mind than your own, then it might be used
R ' C H A P D S M I ' • O F F I C I A L C O u R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T f c S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Heustess - Cross 1016
in that fashion, mightn't it?
A It might he, yes.
Q We have no assurance that you will remain forever
the assistant superintendent or staff and personnel of the
Chattanooga school system, do we?
A No.
0 Now, as I got the whole drift of your testimony,
the effort of the Chattanooga school system to integrate its
school faculties has been limited to the cross assignment of
specifically black and white teachers to specifically white
and black schools whenever a vacancy occurred?
A That's right.
Q And, then, that has been further limited by a
policy of concurrence which requires that the teacher himself
or herself be consulted and also the principal to determine
whether or not they are willing to go into the new situation,
is that correct?
A Well, again, as with Mr. Witt, Mr. Williams, this
is not a policy. This is an operating procedure.
Q All right. Whatever we call it, that's wliat has
been happening?
A Yes, sir.
0 Yes, sir. And, the present condition of faculty
desegregation in Chattanooga is a direct result of that rather
Ileustess - Cross 1017
l i m i t e d a n d r e s t r i c t e d o p e r a t i n g p r o c e d u r e , i s n ' t i t ?
j
A T h a t ' s r i g h t .
Q F o r i n s t a n c e , y o u i n d i c a t e d i n m a n y i n s t a n c e s
t h a t y o u s h o u l d h a v e d o n e b e t t e r i n r e g a r d s t o t h e s p e c i f i c
s c h o o l s i n t e r m s o f c r o s s o v e r a s s i g n m e n t s ?
A T h a t ' s r i g h t .
Q I t a k e i t t h a t w h a t y o u m e a n t b y t h a t w a s t h a t
a t l e a s t a s t o t h o s e s c h o o l s , t h e m e t h o d o f v a c a n c y a s s i g n m e n t
w i t h t h e p o l i c y o r p r a c t i c e o f v o l u n t a r y c o n c u r r e n c e w a s
e v i d e n t l y b r e a k i n g d o w n a s t o t h o s e s c h o o l s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A T h a t ' s c o r r e c t .
Q A l l r i g h t .
A P l u s i n a l l f a i r n e s s , I h a v e t o s a y t h a t t h e r e
w e r e o n e o r t w o i n s t a n c e s w h e r e i f I h a d k e p t a c l o s e r e y e
o n t h e m a t h e m a t i c a l r a t i o s I p r o b a b l y c o u l d h a v e d o n e b e t t e r .
O Y e s . Y o u w o u l d h a v e t o c o n c l u d e , h o w e v e r , t h a t
t h i s i s a v e r y g r a d u a l m e t h o d o f a c h i e v i n g r a c i a l I n t e g r a t i o n
o n f a c u l t y a n d s t a f f , w o u l d n ' t y o u , M r . — D r . i l e u s t e s s ?
A P a r t i c u l a r l y i n a s c h o o l s y s t e m t h a t i s l o s i n g
I
t e a c h i n g p o s i t i o n s , y e s .
Q W h a t a r e s o m e o f t h e o t h e r m e t h o d s t h a t m i g h t b e
e m p l o y e d t o i n t e g r a t e f a c u l t y a n d 3 t a f f ?
A W e l l , t h e r e w o u l d b e a r b i t r a r y t r a n s f e r s , w o u l d
b e t h e m o s t d i r e c t a n d —
R i c h a r d s m i t h o f f i c i a l c o u r t r e p o r t f h
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Heustess - Cross 1018
Q (Interposing) Now, when you say arbitrary, do
you mean simply that the teachers would simply be assigned by
the Department of Personnel?
A Massive reassignment, yes.
Q Yes. All right. And, this -- this massive re
assignment can be done in several ways?
A It can.
Q Actual selection of --
A (Interposing) Yes, sir.
0 (Continuing) -- of the schools as to which the
teacher will be assigned?
A Yes, sir.
Q Can it not? And are you familiar with some of the
school systems who have engaged in this massive reassignment of
teachers since the Supreme Court in Alexander versus h o l m e s ?
A I don't know about the Hoi ';es .
Q The case —
A (Interposing) School system.
Q Alexander ver»UI Holmes November 1969, decision of
the Supreme Court which said that the plaintiffs were entitled
to immediate relief in desegregating school systems?
A I go each year to the National Arsociation of
School Personnel Administrators, and this past October I
|
attended very few meetings because I was quite-busy talking
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with personnel directors in various cities who have done
similar things.
Q Yes. And in the Nashville school system, for
example, which prior thereto had not had as much desegregation
in faculty as Chattanooga, the entire school system, the faculty
and staff, were desegregated at the beginning in one month in
August of last year, were they not?
A This is correct.
Q And, the faculties in each school were reassigned
according to the ratio of white to black teachers in the systes
A Right.
Q And, were you made aware of the method that
used in reassigning those teachers?
A I visited with Mr. Bradley for, oh, I guess, 48
hours total.
Q What was that method, if you will just --
A (Interposing) lie started out, as I remember, making
some attempt to make individual and professional judgments
concerning reassignments. After they had been going at this
for several days with very little progress, they gave up. And,
went to a much less personal approach and, *V« need three
English teachers here. Okay. Here are three English teachers
Q And, state whether or not they used, to some
extent, the lottery system which was used indeed here in the
Hcustess - Cross 1019
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U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
system in allocating teachers between Riverside and Howard
High School, that is —
A (Interposing) I am not aware that they used a
lottery system as such.
q Well, maybe perhaps lottery is a bad word, the
system of drawing out of a hat, for instance, where there
were English positions in a certain number of schools and so
aeust£S3 - Cross 1020
many English teachers that they would all put their names in a
hat and then draw for the positions and subject to reassignment
if the right racial balance wasn't reached?
A I understand they did something to this —
Q (Interposing) There are various objective ways of
reassigning the teachers if you set about the goal of a certain
ratio of teachers in each school, are there not, Dr. Heustess?
A That's true, and there would also be some — I don
mean to make a dichotomy here between objective and profession
but there would also be some ways that you could approach this
with more professional viewpoint.
Q Yes. Actually, the most important thing in regard
to integration, whether it be a faculty or student body, is
determining the objective, is it not. Dr. beustess; and once
the objective is determined, then the procedure can be established?
A Yes.
q So that if it were decided that — if the Board ha£
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Heuatess - Cross
1 0 2 1
decided that it wanted to achieve -- I think you said the idea
ratio in your opinion based on what you knew about it would be
about 40 to 60 or 43 to 57 percent?
A well —
Q (Interposing) The present ratio?
A This is our present ratio. yes, 43 percent blade.
50 —
Q (Interposing) Now, if the Board of Education were
bo select that as a goal in each school, than the teachers
could be reassigned to the schools according to that ratio,
couldn't they?
A Certainly they could.
Q That could be done rather quickly and expeditiously,
couldn't it?
A i — yes.
Q Now, then, there would be sous problems of adjust
ment, would there not? For instance, there might be a problem
about a mathematics teacher here or a science teacher here that
might have to be procured and might be difficult to be procured
and there would be some minor problems of adjustment. But, they
would be mostly problems of adjustment and you could handle
them, couldn't you?
A Oh, I think so.
0 Yes. Is integration impeded to sose extent by the
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U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
requirement of reemploying teachers, tenure teachers, who return
from leave?
A i don't know whether this is — I think — I don't
know whether it's policy or state law. It's equity at any
rate that a teacher who is a tenure teacher who is returning
from leave gets the first available position in her specialty.
Q For which he or she is suitable?
A Qualified.
Q Suitable and qualified. Didn't they add the word
suitable" after the Supreme Court decision in Brown? Didn't
they put themselves a loophole in there that said provided,
however, that nothing shall in that provision shall be construed
as depriving the Board of its ability to determine the suitability
of a teacher for a particular position?
A I don't know about that.
0 I think it is. Now, with regard to — with regard
to vacancies, looking over your list of vacancies, you have
less than 20 vacancies here and this is an Exhibit 71.
Counting the three special — well, let's count
the Latin vacancies too — the Latin, the three special ed.,
the guidance, which totals seven; the tailoring and woodworking,
which totals nine; and the other three combinations at the
bottom, which total twelve. You have only about twelve teaching
vacancies for which you do not have a substantial ntasber of
Ileus teas - Cross 1022
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] haustess - Cross 1023
applicants at present, is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q So that the problem -- and moreover, if we may
project from the applications which you have accepted, the
applications which you have received and accepted, rejected, ox
sent out an offer on —
A (Interposing) Those are offers that we have made,
yes, sir.
Q At the top here, have -- evidently you are operatic
while you are not operating 50-50, you are operating pretty
close to 60-40, your black-white ratio on your applications,
too, aren't you?
A Pretty close, yes, sir.
f-> So that there doesn't seem to be any insuperable
obstacles to working out the kind of faculty integration here
which the Supreme Court of the United States approved in the
Montgomery case, do there?
A Montgomery was much closer to the point than we
are now, because of some operating procedures that they had.
Q I am not making the comparison. I am simply sayin<[
considering the admissions that you have just made and the
actual facts in Chattanooga, there are no insuperable obstacles
to the School Board, proceeding immediately to initiate chat
kind of faculty integration in Chattanooga, are there?
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U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Iteustess - Cross 1024
A That’s right.
Q And, indeed, there would have been nothing to
prevent the Chattanooga school Board fron proceeding with that
kind of integration in past years, would there, to your knowledge,
insofar as anything that you know now is concerned?
A Basically, that’s true. I don't know whether you
are going to let me say this or not except for one thing.
Q Yes, air.
A And that’s the very deep-rooted and this has been
expressed to me because I am from another area — and the very
deep-rooted commitment of the school system to the necessity
for involving as many people as possible in any sort of major
decision. That is the only primary hang-up that 1 can see.
Q The very deep-rooted what, now?
A Conviction of the school system.
Q All right. That conviction, that deep-rooted
conviction, has not extended to the involvement of black people
in those decisions, have they?
A Yes, sir.
Q Well, is it your view that that conviction has
extended to involving the plaintiffs in the decisions of the
School board, plaintiffs in this case?
A None of the plaintiffs in this caie, Mr. Williams,
are employees of the School Board. If they had been —
R I C H A R D S M t T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Q (Interposing) When you say people in the community
then, you are referring to employees of the School Board?
A I am sorry if I said people in the community. I
certainly intended to say to the people in the system who are
affected by —
Q (Interposing) Of course# you do not -- you do not
believe that the involvement of employees of the school system
should be allowed to defeat the compliance w .th the Constitution
do you?
A No, sir.
Q So that that particular portion of the situation,
we would have to concede, then, that the School Board could havje
moved five or six years ago to initiate faculty desegregation,
couldn't they?
A This is correct.
Q And, Dr. Heustess, as an educator of considerable
substance, would you or not agree that the faculty of — that
the staffs and faculties of the Chattanooga schools still remai
very much racially identifiable?
A Most of them, yes, sir.
Q Yes. And, would you or not agree that that racial
identifiability retains an aspect of racial segregation in
the system?
A Yes.
Heustess - Cross 1025
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Q And, yes, sir, your answer, yes?
A r e s .
^ And, would you or not have to agree, Dr. ileustess,
that that racial identiflability of faculty adversely affects
the education which both white and black children are receivii
in the system?
A I think it probably does, yes, sir.
MR. WILLIAMS: No further questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
B Y MR. W I T T i
0 Dr. Ueustess, in the plaintiffs* motion for furthei
relief filed in 1965, the plaintiffs requested that, and I am
using their language, that the Chattanooga Board, in quotes,
assign teaching, supervisory, and other professional personne]
to schools in the CSiattanooga school system on the basis of
qualifications and need and without regard to the race of the
personnel or the children in attendance."
Do you have any doubt about the meaning of that
language?
A No, sir.
0 Is your performance this last year consistent with
that request that the plaintiffs made in 1965?
A No, sir.
MR. WITT: No further questions.
ileus tess - Cross
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ileus teas - Recross 1027
THE COURT: Anything further of this witness?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, Your Honor. There was a
pamphlet, believe it's Exhibit 69, yes, sir.
THE COURT; Sixty-eight.
MR. WILLIAMS: Sixty-eight. That's all right, if
Your Honor please.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
?*_.*!*• WILLIAMS:
Q Dr. HeuBtess, you were read some legal language
from a prayer in the complaint, in the original -- in a pleadinfg
that was filed in this case. Do you read that prayer as — as
requesting assignment of teachers without regard to race or do
you read that prayer as a prayer for the abolition of segrega
tion in the school system?
A I read that prayer in its historical context as a
plea for abolition of segregation.
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank, you. Dr. Ueustess.
THE COURT: Anything further? If not, Dr. ileustescj,
you may be excused.
(Witness excused.)
james d . .McCullough ,
called as a witness at the instance of the defendants, being
first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows;
DIRECT EXAMINATION
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McCullough - Direct
BY MR. WITT:
1028
Q
A
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Affairs.
Q
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Q
Would you please state your full name?
Janes D. McCullough.
By who® are you employed. Mister —
(Interposing) Chattanooga Board of Education.
What is your position at the Chattanooga Board?
Assistant Superintendent for Logistics in Fiscal
How long have you been in that position?
Since 1961.
Would you please state to the Court your educational
background?
A I have a bachelor's and master's degree and have
additional work in the field of business from — my course work
ha3 been at Middle Tennessee State College, University of
Tennessee, and some work at Teachers' College, Columbia.
system —
A
Q
A
0
A
Q
When you were first employed by the City school
(Interposing) The school year, 1949 and '50.
In what capacity?
As a teacher.
And where?
Brainerd Junior High.
All right. How long did you stay at Brainerd Junio
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High?
A Stayed one half of a year.
Q What was your next assignment?
A I went In the service for two years and was asslgne|d
to Chattanooga High School in 1952.
Q What was your capacity?
Teacher.
Q How 3 ong did you stay at City High School?
A Until 1959.
'oi Then what was your next position?
I was assigned to the Central Staff in the area of
school plant planning.
4 How long did you remain in that capacity?
•' Until I assumed m y present position in 1 9 6 1 .
4 Mr. McCullough, do you remember the circumstances
under which the busing of students from annexed areas was
commenced in the school system?
Yes, when the City was preparing the plans of
service for the Plneville, the so-called alrport-Shepherd area,
and the Stuart Heights area. The residents of that area pointed
out to the city they were not enjoying the benefits of uus ti’anu
portatlon and City Commission,in preparing its plan of service,
made a commitment to these areas that they would continue to
service the same level at wicu they were receiving it.
McCullough - Direct 1 0 2 9
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^ Do you recall the year In which that statenwnt was
raade to these people?
Not the exact year. That area was under discussion
for two or three years, t u t It was sonstlaw between 1966 and the
first — completion of the annexation which I believe__well,
when we were first affected ‘ S0-S9 t. t :* PlneviUe and
airport-Shepherd areas.
«11 right. Prior to 19ofc-o$, what was — are you
familiar with the school system's transportation activities
prior to that time?
A Yes.
McCullough - Direct 1030
^ What Wa8 th« transportation policy of the School
Board prior to the annexation of Pinevllle and the other school*i
in 1965-69?
A Well, Uiere was no transportation afforded except
for special education students, handicapped children.
Q How many — how many children were involved in
special education transportation, approximately?
A Ifc Probably varied from the beginning when — not
sure the exact year, '69 or'oO, we started operating one bus;
that number has grown to four, small, t-passenger buses which
would Involve maximum of 130 pupils now.
Been some less each jear. I think this is the
most we transport this year.
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.McCullough - Direct 1031
Q What will bo the nature of the handicaps of these
children?
A Mostly physical handicaps. A number of them have
to be literally picked up and placed in the bus and carried to
the training institutions.
Q Then, prior to the annexation of Pineville and the
other schools, are you saying this was the limit of the schools'
transportation responsibility?
A Yes.
Q All right. You have any idea how much this cost?
A Yes, I know now it cost about $260 per pupil. It's
a rather expensive transportation now.
Q All right. What is the present cost of the —
the pupils that are involved in the annexation of
the areas in 1967-69?
A I don't have the exact figures in front of ine, but
I can give them to you approximately. In '68-69, our cost was
something between thirty-five and thirty-six dollars per pupil.
The next year, around thirty dollars per pupil. This year we
are projecting they will run between thirty-one and thirty-two
dollars.
Q All right. What is the source of reimbursement for
these expenditures?
A For those pupils who live more than a mile and a
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McCullough Direct 1032
half from the school and with the agreement of Hamilton County,
we can collect approximately $15 per pupil. The additional
cost comes from the City of Chattanooga.
This can be done if the County is agreeable to
inserting it as a budget item in their budget with our projec
tions. I believe about $10 is the per capita amount and
additional $5 is based on density of population factor that is
applied across the state. We do not figure in the computation
for this, but we are subject to the rate that's assessed againsjt
for the county ;>y the state.
Q What percentage of this cost is actually reimbursed)?
A Less than half of our total transportation cost is
reimbursed.
Q
A
What's the source of the remaining half?
The City of Chattanooga — appropriation from the
City property tax.
Q Approximately what percent of the City school
system’s current budget comes directly from the City of Chatta
nooga?
A between 13 and 14 percent.
Q What percentage comes from the State?
A Approximately 43 percent.
Q Where does the remaining portion come from?
A About 42 percent from county-wide property tax and
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on one-and-a-half or two percent from varioua sources, the
chief being tuition.
Q In those figures, did you consider the federal funds
that are available to the City school system?
A No, sir. This is the current operating budget, and
I was not reflecting federal funds in this figure, sir.
Q Approximately what are the federal funds, now,
in the current budget that come from the federal government?
A I don't have an accurate total. They would exceed
something over three million dollars countirg all the programs
that the Board has some responsibility for and the programs thjt
they share with other agencies.
Q All right. Now, Mr. McCullough, in one of the
schools that was annexed, was RiVermont, was it not?
A Yes, sir.
0 Ix> y°u are you responsible for the transportation
provided in that area?
A That comes under my division, yes.
0 Do you know how many — approximately how many
students in the Rivermont area are being transported now?
A We operate four buses from that area and the
average number per bus is 150; so, five or six hundred, I don't
have those figures here, but it would be in the neighborhood
of that.
McCullough - Direct 1033
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Q All right. Are there students in the RiVermont
area that live vithin a mile and a half of tne Ri Vermont School]?
A There are some, most do not.
Q Are the ones -- are any of the ones that are within
a mile and a half transported to school?
A Yes. If the buses are not loaded, we will take
additional students nearer than a mile and a half.
Q If you accept the students under those circumstancejs,
are you reimbursed for those students?
A No, sir.
0 To which schools are the students in the Riverraont
area transported?
A The RiVermont School, Chattanooga high School,
North Chattanooga Junior High School, and Kirkman, Chattanooga
High School. All right.
0 All right, is North Chattanooga Junior High School
tl̂ e nearest junior high school to that area?
A Yes, it is.
Q Is City High School the nearest high school to that
area?
A Yes.
Q Is Kirkman Technical School the nearest technical
school to that area?
A Yes, it is.
McCullough - Direct 1034
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McCullough - Direct 1035
Q Now, in the Shepherd area, I believe there were
pupils being transported, is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q You recall approximately how many this is?
A Less than three hundred. We operate two buses out
of that area.
Q And, to which schools do these buses move?
A They — Elbert Long School which is elementary
and junior high; Brainerd High School and Howard High School.
Q Is Brainerd High School the nearost high school?
A Yes, it is.
Q Is Elbert Long Junior High School the nearest junicr
high school?
A
Q
A
Q
Nearest city school, yes.
And Howard is -- why is the transportation to Howard?
Nearest school that had a technical program.
I see. Are you in your capacity, are you familiar
with the State law and the State regulations with reference to
the tramsportation of pupils?
A Generally, yes, sir.
Q Is there any — is there any restriction upon
transportation of pupils that live within a mile and a half
of a school?
A The system may transport them if it so desires, bu1:
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it cannot claim then for reimbursement from the State. It's
strictly operational with the local system. If it's operating
the transportation system and wants to transport youngsters
that live less than a mile and a half, it's not mandatory they
transport them outside the mile and a half.
Q All right. What does the effect of a public
transportation system have upon this availability of reimburse
ment?
A I am not sure. You mean a municipally owned system
what effect would it have? I am not sure I understand the
question.
Q Well, a public transportation system, whether it
be publicly o w e d or privately owned, but a public transporta
tion system such as the Southern Coach Lines.
A I am not sure that I know law that well to comment
to answer.
Q Well, it does —
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) I object to the
leading, he said he doesn’t know the law and I don't like him
telling
MR. WITT: (Interposing) I didn't understand him.
If that’s what he said —
BY MR. WITT:
Q Is that what you said?
McCullough - Direct 1036
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McCullough - Direct 1037
A I said I am not sure on that particular point. If
I understand the question — if you are ashing if the school
system owns the system, I think I know the law as it pertains
to the school system, but my — interpreted related to something
like Southern Coach, I do not know it, that's what I was saying.
Q Well, I am sorry for ay poorly stated question.
What I was — may I state it again?
Does the existence, the availability of a public
i" transportation system in the City school system — in the City —
n in the City of Chattanooga have any relationship to the transpcrta-
12 tion law in reimbursement under the State law?
is A No, sir, it does notf except as /e may with the
li permission of the County, participate for reimbursement in our
budget. The City may or may not operate. There is no -- the
]11 State law is completely silent on City school systems and raakef
17 no provision to fund them for reimbursement direct for any
I transportation.
i| Q All right. Prior to 1968, was the City school —
L,() A did the City school system receive any reimbursement from the
.M I State for any transportation of students?
A It received reimbursement for special education
students under an excess cost allocation for but not under the
j minimum foundation program.
Q All right. Now, if a student living within one ant
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McCullough - Direct 1038
one-half miles from an elementary school were to be transferred
wore to be transported for any reason by the City system to a
school other than the nearest school, would it be possible under
the State law for the City to be reimbursed for that expense?
A It's my understanding that they could not be
reimbursed. The law —
HR. WILLIAMS; (Interposing) I object to — I
object to his attempting to interpret law.
THE COURT: Yes, I assume the law could be
established clearly one way or the other.
BY MR. WITT-
0 Do you have responsibility in budget making for
the City school system?
A Yes, sir, I do.
Q In this discharge, this responsibility, do you
attempt to understand the regulations of the Department of
State, of Education, and its applicability to the school systen?
A Yes, sir.
0 Are you generally aware of the limitations and the
restrictions placed upon school systems if they are to qualify
for State funds?
A Yes, w e have to consider that a great leal to make
a budget, because this is a variable that continues throughout
the school year. There is no certainty of any funds until you
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have complied with the particular method of allocation, whether
it be assignment of positions or number of pupils that attend
or expenditures and activities.
Therefore, you cannot make a budget. In controlling
without following the State's regulations very closely.
MR. WITT: Thank you, Mr. McCullough.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WILLIAMSi
^ Mr. McCullough, it's been stated here that the
budget — that the operating budget for the City of Chattanooga
was about sixteen-and-a-half million dollars last year, is that
correct, for the school system?
^ It's $16,050,000 in round figures.
Q Sixteen million fifty thousand dollars. All right
sir. What is it expected to be this year?
A We have no vay of knowing yet. We are working on
the budget, but there are a number of variables. Pupils have
a great effect on your income. Therefore, we do not have a
projection at this time.
^ Un<*er Hiiniraum foundation program, the income
froiu the State depends to some extent on your ADA, average
daily attendance?
A it depends largely plus the division of county
taxes, also depends on your ratio with the county of ADA; so,
McCullough - Direct 1(J3y
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McCullough - Cross 1040
with the exception of the City appropriation, all of the others
is determined by attendance.
0 All right. Do you have a capital improvements
program in the City school system?
A No, we do not at this tine.
Q You don't have a projected budget for capital
improvements?
A Our capital improvement program has been dependent
upon bond funds during the past several years and since I have
been responsible, we have not passed a bond issue since 1962.
So, the funds that we received from the State for capital are
from earlier bond issues.
Q Your capital improvement budget, it doesn't have
to be predicated on bond issues, does it?
A It has to be, of course, backed up by some revenue
force.
Q It could be funded through the City government of
Chattanooga, could it not?
A Legally it could, practically, I don’t know.
Q All right. Now, this money which is furnished,
which is paid by the State i3 based on the basis of a contract
that the City has with the County, with the County school system?
A Yes, agreement or contract -- an agreement based
on estimates.
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McCullough - Cross 1041
Q And that's not unique, is it? Taat's done quite
frequently over the State?
A I am not sure 1 am familiar with what is possible
elsewhere. I only know about this place.
Q But, in any event, it is possible for transportation
functions in the City to be financed through the Minimum Founds
tions state funds program by effectuating such a contract with
the County?
A If the County is agreeable, yes, sir.
Q Yes. Of course, it can be done more than one way;
if the County can furnish the buses and you could pay the County
for that as an operating expense or you couli own your own
buses, can't you?
A I assume that as far as I know the County owns
very few buses; but, of course, it could be by contract or
ownership. Those are the two ways that systems transport.
Q Yes. The — presently the City if Chattanooga
owns its own buses, doesn't it?
A Yes.
Q And, it operates in addition to these special
education, the small special education, 8-passenger buses which
you have referred. City of Chattanooga operates approximately
14 regular, full-capacity buses to take these children back and
forth, doesn't it?
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A Not -- operates ten an scheduled routes.
Q And retains four in reserve?
A They are not in reserve. They are in transporting
youngsters in federal programs and field trips and one or two,
you might say, are in reserve and the others are all operating.
Q There are a total of four of them?
A Yes, there's a total of fourteen — sixty-six.
Q And you figure approximately what capacity are
these buses?
A They are rated at 66 passengers.
Q I see. And, you figure them — you figure the
total capacity, computing the number of children that can be
carried by a single bus as 150 pupils per bus, I noticed, in
your direct examination?
A That is our average number, now, based on the route
and the density of pupils.
Q That means that the bus, then, i ; making more than
one trip, is that correct?
A Yes.
McCullough - Cross 1042
Q All right. What is the greatest distance that
any bus travels, now?
A I can tell you the location that it travels. I do
2 4 I n°i have the mileage, because we do not report it that way,
and X haven't had occasion to; but, I suppose the longest run
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would be from the Stuart Heights area possibly to the downtown
areas.
‘ Q Where is the Stuart Heights area?
' A It's north of the river.
'' Q Is that — cam you show U3 that? Could you come
' down and show us that here on the map?
THE COURT: Right near RiVermont.
THE WITNESS: RiVermont School is located in it,
10 if you --
11 BY MR. WILLIAMS:
1 McCullough - Cross 1043
12 Q (Interposing) Ri Vermont School? Oh, up in this
1! vicinity?
14 A fes.
r> Q Longest route is from there to where?
ii. A I am guessing that the longest route would be there
17 to Kirtaaan.
IS Q To Kirkman?
1!> A Yes.
•JO Q Yes. Would you say that that would be a distance
21 of --- of at least -- may I have that? Well, that's all right.
*>•> Say that that would be a distance of at least
24 six or seven miles?
24 A Probably the way the bus would go.
27> 0 Be more than that?
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A Loading, it would be that far, yes, sir.
0 Yes. What is the — and do you have any idea as
to the travel time?
A We picked the first youngsters vp around 7;00
o'clock and we try to complete the last deliveries around
8:30.
Q After having made two trips?
A Two and three trips. Some buses will make three,
some two.
Q So then, the travel time, then, you said the travel
time for any particular child is about half an hour?
A Thirty to forty minutes.
Q Thirty to forty minutes? All of those children
who are being transported from that area are white, aren't
they?
A i have not made a study of the composition.
Q Well, if all of the children in RiVermont School
are white, would you then agree that most of those children
are white?
A Yes, I would.
Q Yes. And, is Shepherd the only other area where
children cure being transported?
A Ho, we are transporting in the so-called Amnicola
area, which is along Riverside Drive.
McCullough - Cross 1044
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McCullough - Cross 1045
Q
A
Q
That’s just east of the river, then?
Yes, sir.
All right. And, where — and they are being
transported from their hones to Amnicola School?
A Amnicola and Hardy Junior High School and Riverside
and Kirkman. He have those four schools listed for that area.
Q Well, now, wait a minute. I thought that Kirkman
High School was the nearest high school in that area. I though
that Kirkman — didn't you testify earlier that Kirkman high
School was the nearest high school from the north?
A There was no question concerning Asmicola in Mr.
Witt's questioning. We didn't discuss that.
Q All right. Now, Kirkman -- where is Kirkman located?
A It’s right in the downtown area just at the railroad
approximately, where you are there.
0 All right, sir. Where is Riverside? It's a little
south of there?
A Yes, sir.
0 So, these children who have been transported from
Amnicola to Riverside are black children, then, aren't they?
A I assume a number of them are. I do not know for
certain. I haven't studied that.
Q They are not, then, being transported to the
nearest high school, are they?
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McCullough - Cross 1046
A As the roads go, my guess would be that Riverside
is the nearest high school to that way because of the road
conditions.
Q Well, then, why are children transported to KirJuaar,
then? why are the white ones being transported to Kirkman?
A Which white ones are you speaking of?
Q Well, maybe that is an assumption. You indicated
that the buses transport children from Anmicola to Hardy and
to Kirkman and to Riverside?
A Those are the schools that are assigned to that
particular area.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Do they transport any of then also to Brainerd?
Not frost that area, no.
No children are transported to Brainerd?
Not from Ainnicola area.
From what area are children transported to Bralnerc ?
From the Shepherd-airport area.
All right, then. Are children transported from th<
Shepherd area also into Riverside or Howard?
A To Howard? Yes.
Q Is Howard nearer to them than Brainerd?
A The children have a choice. Parents have a choice
between Brainerd and Howard if they live in that area, again,
depending on the course offerings.
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McCullough - Cross 1047
Q All right. So, then, actually, your earlier
statement that State funds are not paid for children who go
beyond the school closer to where they live does not apply to
this, does it?
A I am not sure I could say that.
0 You are not Bure that you could say what, actually,
actually, what the State regulation provides is that if a child
lives more than one or one and a half miles to the school to
which i3 assigned, then Minimum Foundation transportation funds
may be paid, isn't that true?
A Yes, and in this case, the assignment would be
based upon the ohoice of the student.
Q Yes. So, it's — doesn't — it's not related to
the fact of the physical presence of a school closer to him,
it's related to the fact of the school of his assignment?
A That would depend on the basis of the assignment,
as I understand the law.
0 Yes. But, it's based on his assignment and not the
physical presence of a school?
A And the assignment is based upon where the student
should fit into the program, as I understand it.
Q Yes, all right, sir. Now, then, well, I want to
make this absolutely clear. I am not talking about - I am not
making any criticism or question about the method of assignment
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McCullough - Cross 1048
or anything like that. What I am saying is regardless of the
physical presence of another school closer to the residence of
the child, if the school to which the School Board has assigned
him is a mile and a half from his town — from his home, then
ho is entitled to State-funded transportation under the Minimus
Foundation program, isn't he, Mr. McCullougn?
A I believe that is the interpretsLion.
Q Yes. Mr. McCullough, do you work out the bus rout.ei
for these — for this transportation or was it just handed dowr
to you when the City annexed these schools?
A I suppose both would be true. I do not do it
personally. It's done within my division.
We, of course, started with the existing County
routes, because we had no location information and we, of
course, adjusted them as the location and pupils changed.
Q You do have a rather good road net here in Chatta
nooga so that there are no problems with regard to routing,
are there?
A There's some problems — there are sortie streets
that our buses cannot negotiate.
Q With regard to getting from one side of town to
another, you have a very good road net?
A Yes, you can get from across town.
Q And, you can get from north to south Chattanooga
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with great facility rapidly and quickly, can't you?
A Yes; but it would affect the nuuuar you could
transport and the cost considerably depending upon the time
and number that you could take.
Q Well, that's a matter that you'd have to work out
when and if you found out how many you had to take?
A That's right.
Q What was the cost of these buses when you purchasod
them?
A The buses as we purchased them equipped averaged
around $9,000.
Q what kind of buses were they?
A You mean the make or the type?
Q The type.
A Well, they are basically the type that are mounted
upon conventional truck chassis. They are not the metropolitar
type buses such as the commercial carriers use. They are the
traditional type with —
0 (Interposing) You mean they are the truck type?
A Truck type with -- equipped with school bus body
with a rather minimum upholstery and minimum equipment. They
are not the type that the commercial carriers usually use.
Q All right. How were they purchased? Who furnisher
the funds to purchase them?
McCullough - Cross 1049
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McCullough - Cross 1050
A The City of Chattanooga.
Q All right. The City funded those buses from its
budget?
A Yes.
Q Sow, are there any children in the City of Chatta
nooga who are furnished transportation subsidization by virtue
of tokens on public transportation?
A There are some special education children who axe
transported this way.
Q How many of those are there and to what extent?
A I an sorry, I don't have those figures. It's not
a large number. They are available, but I do not have them.
Q Had there at the time — at any time in the past
been any arrangement whereby there was much larger scale sub
sidization of pupil transportation by tokens?
A Larger compared to special education program?
Q Yes, sir.
A Ho, the special education program is about as large i
today as it has ever been.
Q Oh, I mean students other than the special education
students?
A i believe that one year we may have transported
some students because of building capacity. They would have
been early -- the sixties. I do not recall the details. I wan
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not responsible for that at that time.
Q Would that have been in the year 1962-63 when the
large numbers of white children were transported from the Clara
Carpenter area over to the Glenwood School?
A I do not remember the details. There was some
transportation in that area at that particular time.
Q And, that was accomplished at your recollection by
the use of tokens?
A I believe that's right.
0 On public transportation?
A Uh-huh.
Q All right. Mr. McCullough, you were director of
planning of school plants for several years?
A Well, for around two years.
Q Were you holding that position when the Piney Woods
School was constructed?
A ho, it was constructed actually after 1 left that
position.
Q Were you holding that position when the Piney Woods
School was planned?
A I don't believe I was, but it was in my division,
that position is still in my division.
Q What schools did you plan? What schools or school
additions did you plan?
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A The schools that we built in the early sixties,
Orainerd High School was planned and under construction before
I cane in the office, forgive ne, I an going to have to
enumerate then to be correct.
Q Yes.
a Charles Bell School was already under construction.
I completed the work on the Alton Park Junior High School;
Chattanooga High School, Dalewood Junior High School. I did
some work on Orchard Knob Junior High School. I participated
in that planning. Those were the first schools and then the
later schools.
Q All right. Now, did you — the ones you have
ioned that you had something directly to do with were
Orchard Knob Junior High School, Dalewood Junior High School?
A Yes.
McCullough - Cross 1052
Q
A
Q
A
Q
And what others, now?
The Alton Park.
Alton Park?
Junior High School.
Now, in your planning for those schools, did you
take into consideration at all the question of school integration?
A The planning that I did was of a technical nature.
I did not determine the need for the school. I, to some extent,
I was involved in it, but the location of the school and the
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1053
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need for it was determined by a joint staff dacision across the
staff and by the Board.
My job vas a technical job which really began when
the size of the school had been determined, the money had been
identified. My wort was mainly with the architects and with
various committees and planning — literally planning the
school — not in planning the location of the school.
Q I said you had nothing to do with that?
A I was generally aware of the statistics and other
things that were considered, but this was not my specific
assignment.
Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether racial
considerations were considered at all; whether the integration
of the school system was considered?
A in what way?
Q Was the — you are aware, of course, that by the
development of or limitation of school capaciti** or by the
location of the school buildings themselves or school expansions
in particular areas of racial concentration or sway from particular
areas of racial concentration, school authorities can effect
whether a school shall become integrated or whether it shall
be segregated. Were you aware of that?
A That would be possible. I would not — am not
aware of it as it pertained to the planning of these schools.
McCullough - Cross
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McCullough - Cross 1054
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rlink I can answer your question now.
At that time, junior highs and elementary schools»
of course, were planned to be located in the sons within as
near density of pupils as you could place the building. The
availability of site and location, of course, had a great
to do with — land is hard to obtain in the city* but since
we could not transport, we tried to get the schools as near
the youngsters as we can.
For example, the Alton Park School, the junior
high school, that grew out of the need of a junior high school
in South Chattanooga. The sane would be true of the Orchard
Knob School. The — we generally are forced to build a school
when a housing project was built as, for example, the Piney
i- Woods School.
i6 0 So, the ides was to build a school as near the
|: center of residential concentration as possible?
,n A Where we expected the pupil growth, yes.
Q All right. But, because the school — a school
M) then itself tends to help develop that growth, too, doesn't
A It contributes to it, I suppose, in a predominantly
home-owned section. But, If you already have a housing project
you know, planned, you already have enrollment when it's
completed. You n ully have the school — is incidental, any
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further growth, if you build it.
McCullough - Cross 1055
Q So, rosily, it's kind of like the chi ok on sod the
egg. You locate the school in — your policy was to locate the
school in an area of residential concentration and — because
of proxinity to the school, and then in turn, the very location
of the school there tends to foster continued development in
that coonunity?
A I an sure a school would attract people to an
area, a new school.
Q And, because — would you say that the general
residential character of Chattanooga was segregated or integrate!?
A It was generally segregated at the tine we were
building these buildings.
0 So that the tendency — so that the location of
the buildings, then, in the heart of those residential concen
trations did then tend to accentuate that segregation and carry
it over into the schools, didn't it, to sas» extent?
A To 8one extent except that we were usually late
in building the schools. The youngsters were usually there
before we were able to finish building so we already had the
youngsters.
0 Yes, sir. But, to the extent that the school would
then attract further residents and the school was then helping
to reinforce the racial concentration?
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McCullough - Cross 1056
A I suppose it might if it had room for additional
youngsters.
Q As a matter of fact, considering the residential
character of Chattanooga today, which continues segregated,
that's pretty much what happened, isn't it, Mr. McCullo gh?
A It would have been true in those days, lie haven't
built any lately so I really couldn't say if it's true now.
Q Well, in terms of what our residential concentra
tions are now, it's true, isn't it? We still are pretty much
segregated here, aren't we, residentially?
A There's a degree of it, yes, certainly.
Q Well, there's a great degree of it, isn't there,
Mr. McCullough?
A there is less than there was.
Q Still a great degree, would you eay so?
A Depending on the definition of great. There's some
degree — 3 liable degree. I would prefer the term "sizable."
Q All right, sir. , you say that there's sane
correlation between the degree of residential segregation and
the degree of segregation that continues in our schools?
A Tes.
Q Tes. And, to — then to the extent that ech.ols
that school zones — that school at.tendance is built on thin
concept of locating the school in the heart of the racial
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concentration residentially, then the schools will remain
segregated, won’t they?
A With the exception of a so jr>->gated school, we
have basically a neighborhood school system still.
~ And, then you're* answering yes to ey question,
aren't you?
A With the exception of high schools, yes.
Q With the exception of the high schools? Well,
taking the high schools, of course, the high schools right
now are operated on freedom of choice, aren't they?
A Yes.
Q But, the high schools themselves follow — were
likewise constructed on this concept of residential concentra
tion, weren't they? Wasn't Howard fchool located in the heart
of a black residential concentration?
A Yes.
Q Brainerd High School was located out here in the
heart of the white residents?
A it was located in an area of high pupil growth
which was white. But, the reason —
Q (Interposing) Pardon me, sir; yes, sir.
A That's all.
0 And, the location of the — would you say that
the location of the Brainerd High School in the east out there,
McCullough - Crocs 1057
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;
would you say that that residential area in the east of
Chattanooga has developed a great deal since the location of
the Brainerd High School there?
A Yes, there's been a considerable degree of develop-Iment.Q Would you say that the school, the location of the
school there, has helped contribute somewhat to that development?
A Yes.
Q And, then, likewise, there — the new City High
School was located up here in Worth Chattanooga, wasn't it?
A Yes.
Q And that is in an area that is primarily inhabited
by white people, isn't it?
A Yes.
Q Yes. And, the Riverside nigh School which was
formerly a white high school is located, when it was made
Riverside, was in an area that was predominantly black, wasn’t
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McCullough - Cross 1058
it?
A It was rapidly becoming so.
Q So that even insofar as the high schools are
concerned, we have still followed this principle that you
mentioned of locating the school in the heart of the residential
concentration, haven’t we?
A We have attempted to locate the schools geographicalL y
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II
and in respect to the —
0 (Interposing) Population?
A Population.
0 Population concentrations?
A To sooe extent; but since they are not soned, that
was not the whole factor. We needed buildings the
Brainerd High School is located there because of space
other things.
Q I suppose the thought was, on desegregation, that
if you left — if you left then not soned, that then that would
lessen the effect of that racial concentration?
A I am not sure I could say that.
Q Well, in any event, though, the fact that they are
not soned has not removed the effect of that racial concentration,
has it?
A No, sir.
MR. WILLIAMS; Believe thafs all.
THE COURT: Mr. McCullough, in regard to your
transportation in the Brainerd area, now, do I understand that
you pick up and transport students from the Brainerd high School
area and beyond Brainerd High School area, it that correct?
TilE WITNESS; Primarily beyond, we could not pick
any up in the immediate Brainerd area. Most — well, youngsters
that go to Brainerd are picked up in the airport-shepherd area.
McCullough - Cross 1059
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We cannot pick up within the original City limits, We can only
i transport in the newly annexed areas.
i THE COURT: Then you go by the Brainerd High School.
Do you let all those students out there?
61 THE WITNESS: The bus will drop the ones that choose
: to attend Brainerd there and will continue to Howard with the
8 others.
i McCullough - Cross 1040
» THE COURT: So, you are busing students by Brainerd
in High School and leaving part of then and then busing the rest
11 on over to Howard?
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THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT; All right.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, Mr. Witt may want me —
I have one additional question which was raised by Your iionor *s
questions.
THE COURT: After you leave Brainerd High School,
do you pick up any other students?
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: So all these students that are bused
go by — to Howard, first go by Brainerd Bicjh and then you bus
then to -- from there to toward, is that it?
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THE WITNESS. I believe that would be true. I am
not entirely familiar with the present routes we are running,
now. It would be possible, if we had a load, 1 know that we
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.toK at Elbert Long first with the junior high youngsters. If
we had sufficient navl-r to justify going direct to Howard,
we would; but if not, for the efficiency, we would go by
Brainerd first.
I have the routes, but I am not familiar with *-hp
numbers on them right now.
MR. WILLIAMS; My question was, if Your Honor please
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q Do you have the records by race of the students who
are bused — the schools that they <.r . bused to?
McCullough - Cross 1061
A
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please?
A
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Yes, we do.
Would you furnish that to the Court as an exhibit,
Yes, sir, it*8 available.
All right, sir. Could you let us have that tomorrow?
I believe we could, yes.
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, sir.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITT:
Q Mr. McCullough, what's the explanation or the
justification for transporting any child from the Shepherd
area past Brainerd to Howard?
A Because he — his parents requested that he attend
Howard.
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Q This is an implementation of the no soiling in the
high school, is that what you are saying?
A Yes. In that particular area, Brainerd and Howard
were paired together for the North Chattanooga children, city
and Kirk*an were paired together, in each case attempting to
offer a technical and academic program so that the youngster
could choose.
And, for those who eight be in the Aenicola area,
the same would be true of Riverside and Kirkean.
0 Is the City system obligated to furnish this
transportation as you understand it?
A As I understand the City's commitment to these
particular annexed areas, we are obligated to furnish it.
® All right. Mr. McCullough, I believe you stated
that you have participated in the planning of the high school
bhat was placed in North C lattanooga?
A Yes, I voa working on it at that time.
Q Believe you also say that you participated in the
planning of Brainerd High School, ia that correct?
A I did more of the supervision oi the construction
of it, actually. The decision and the location had been made
before I assumed the school planning role. The school was
actually under construction when 1 came into that particular
assignment.
McCullough - Redirect 1062
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Q 'll right. Was it your responsibility to attempt
to identify possible sites for a high school in north Chatta
nooga?
A Yes.
Q How would you go about deciding what kind of a
site would be adequate? Kov id you go about it?
A Well, of course, we started with the State miftiwnn.
requirements which for senior high schools would be eight acres
plus one acre for each one hundred pupils in attendance. This
would mean, for Chattanooga High School, which was originally
planned for one thousand, it would need a minimum of eighteen
acres. We try to find more land, of course, if ve can.
But, we do our bast to follow the minimum regula
tions when we locate a school site.
Q All right. How many available sites were identified
in the Horth Chattanooga area?
A I recall three or four possible sites, none of
them were good sites because the terrain is very hilly there
and the street system is not well developed. I can think of
three* cite* right now that we considered seriously.
Q Do you r e c a l l the status of annexation at that
time at the time that high school was planned?
A Yes, I do.
0 What was that?
McCullough - ilodirect 1063
r i c m a h d s m i t h o f f i c i a l c o u r t r f p o r t e r
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A Me were anticipating an early annexation of the
Stuart Heights and Mountain Creek areas that have now been
annexed, particularly Stuart Heights. Me expected a large
number of students from that area and we desperately needed a
school there, and we felt that we did.
The City had completed all of the steps of annexa
tion at that time, and that was the reason Chattanooga High
School was located in North Chattanooga.
Q Did that annexation take place?
A No, sir, it was delayed. Me had a change in
some of the Commissioners and the Mayor of Chattanooga and
their position toward annexation was different from their
predecessor and they delayed the annexation.
Q All right. During that period of time, were plans
made for an additional junior high school north of the river?
McCullough - Redirect 1064
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A
Q
A
Q
Yes, plans vere made. We purchased a site.
Where was this site that was purchased?
Very near the ruVermont School on Carter r>rive.
Here's Carter Drive in this general area?
Yes, it lies between Carter Drive and the river.
How long ago did the City school system puftgtased
that site for a junior high school?
A It was purchased about the time that we purchased
the City High School site. I could not recall the exact time,
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early *60-61, in that area, '61 or *2.
McCullough - Redirect 1065
Q All right. Does the City still own that property?
A y«s, we do.
Q Mow, let's shift, i believe you said you
participated in the planning for the Alton Park Junior
School?
A Yes.
Q let's see, where is it? Is it located in a
concentration of student population?
A Yes. There are two fairly sizable housing projects.
Elementary school serve as feeder schools to that nchool and is
a fairly high density population in addition to the —
Q (Interposing) But, actually, was to the east of
the — the Alton Park Junior High School, immediately to the
east?
A I am not sure I am sure of ey directions there.
Immediately east to it, t. ere * s a swampy area or undeveloped
area that's almost a natural barrier to transportation. Only
one street going through, if I am sure of my directions.
Q Is this where — is Chattanooga Creek adjacent to
this property?
A Yes.
What's to the north of Alton Park Junior High
School immediately to the north?
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McCullough - Redirect 1066
A Similar area, it's pretty well blocked in by same
industrial development.
Q Then, is it fair to say that this school is located!
on the edge of a pupil concentration?
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to that.
THE WITNESS: It's located on one side, but it's
fairly near the pupils.
BY MR. WITT:
Q ,.ut why is it there?
A That was the only site we could find in that
area that was suitable for a junior high school.
MS. WITT: No further questions.
THE COURT: Anything further of this witness?
All right, you are excused.
(Witness excused.)
THE COURT: Is there anything further, now, that
you wish to take up this evening or —
MR. WITT: (Interposing) I'd like — Mr. Williams
asked for some statistics, black and white statistics with
regard to transportation and I am under uLe impression that
this has already been furnished to him ia the answers to the
interrogatories and we —
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) The numbers of
children transported by race in the sca.oola to which transported.
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i 1067
MR. WITTs Don't recall you requested the schools
1 too. You have got the numbers of the students and whether or
l not they are black or white.
■> MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I don't have the schools to
() which transported, though.
- MR. WITT: Well, then, all you need is the —
• 8 MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) I believe I do have
<) the numbers. I am not sure I have thee by race.
K) MR. WITT: These interrogatories that we answered
! 1 on April the 5th —
12 MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) Uke, since he said
18 they are available, I'd like to have the schools to which
1 l transported, Your Honor. I think it would be helpful to the
r> Court.
Hi THE COURT: All right.
i: MR. WITT: All right.
18 THE COURT: How, where do we stand, gentlemen,
• i<) with regard to your coopleting your proof?
80 MR. WITT: May it please the Court, 1 have two
81 witnesses that will take a fairly substantial amount of time
> > and two that will take a very short period of time on direct
8! examination.
81 MR. WILLIAMS: I am almost prepared, if Your
‘8r> Honor please, I am not saying I will do it, but I am almost
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1068
prepared to waive cross examination to get this trial on. I
think —
THE COURT: ( Interposing) All right.
MR. MITT: Be satisfied if you just stick to the
material on direct examination.
THE COURT: All right. How, gentlemen, this case
was scheduled to proceed through tomorrow. What is going to
be your situation about being available to continue next week
if we do not complete tomorrow? First place, how long do you
anticipate it will take?
MR. WILLIAMS: One day, if Tour Honor please,
I expect, exclusive of cross examination.
THE COURT: All right. What is your situation
about would you not complete the trial tomorrow?
MR. MITT; The defendants are ready to proceed,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: I have another trial scheduled upon
Monday but would be desirable to complete this. Any reason
why we cannot complete the case, then, on Monday?
MR. WILLIAMS; If Your Honor please, if we could
complete it Monday, that would be fine. I have already missed
four Legislative days this week. I would hate to miss the
last weak next week. But, Legislature does not convene until
five on Monday, so I could t*> nere Monday and although I have a
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F ' C l A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S O l S T R l C T C O U R T
1069
case at Circuit Coart in Nashville, that would just have to
be continued.
THE COURT: See if we can't complete the trial
then by Monday. Have four witnesses tomorrow, and I assume
you will be prepared, if he completes his proof up in the day
tomorrow, that you will be prepared to proceed with your proof
tomorrow?
MR. WILLIAMS: Tea, sir. If he could complete
his proof in the morning tomorrow, I could put on perhaps half
of my proof tomorrow , if Tour Honor please.
THE COURT: All right. Nell, let's plan to
proceed in that manner, then. Anything further?
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, it would
be helpful if counsel could be limited to a somewhat greater
extent than he has been to matters that are relevant and
going to be helpful to the Court in terms of time, and I don't
mind being so limited myself once I begin to take up my proof.
THE COURT: Well, ve are trying this case, of
course, without a jury, and the Court can always evaluate the
evidence and consider that which is relevant and not consider
that which is irrelevant. I think the parties should be
allowed to have great freedom in presenting what they consider
to be relevant in the case; and if I should exclude it, they
are entitled to place it in the record for the Court of Appeals
R I C H A R D S M i T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R t P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
1070
to look at. So, I think we should proceed with counsel being
not being unduly restricted in that regard.
Anything further? If not, let's adjourn court
until 9;00 o'clock tenorrow morning.
(Court adjourned.)
R I C H A R D S M . T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
S^XTH DAY OF TRIAL 1071
May 14/ 1971
9:00 O'clock, A. M.
Friday.
THE COURT: Gentlemen are we prepared to proceed
in the case of James R. Mapp?
MR. WILLIAMS: Plaintiff is ready.
MR. WITT: Defendants are ready
THE COURT: Call your next witness.
MR. WILLIAMS; If Your Honor please, I would like
to make a preliminary statement this morning less I forget it.
Every 3 0 often in this case ve have to enter what
adversary counsel called yesterday a housekeeping order. The
case has been going so long, with personnel of the Board and
the school system changing, I don't believe that Mr. Henry has
been formally made a defendant nor the present members of the
Board. I should like to request that the order be entered,
updating tne defendants in the case.
THE COURT: Well, allow an order to enter. Allow
it making the record to correspond with the facts in the case
in that regard. I assume you will prepare the order, Mr.
Williams?
MR. WILLIAMS: I was wondering, since Mr. Witt is
here in town, he would prepare the order, since he has the
information, sir?
THE COURT: All right.
Mrs. Mardo - Direct 1072
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HR. WITT: I will assume that responsibility, yes.
Perhaps the record should shoe that four members of the School
Board are present in the courtroom this morning — Hr. Cook,
Miss Hooper, Mr. James, and Mr. Proctor. iv r1 . .. „ . \ < .. .. >
THE COURT: I might say I appreciate their being
present. I realize it’s quite a sacrifice on their part and
that this job is public service that they perform and, as I
say, this trial serves, I think, a very beneficial, educational
purpose along with all the other purposes of the trial.
’ 9 ( HRS. NIT A LAWSOM NARDO,
called as a witness at the instance of the defendants, being
first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITT:
Q Would you please state your name, please?
A Mrs. Nita Lawson Nardo.
Q What is your present employment?
A Title I Director for Chattanooga Public Schools.
Q Would you briefly describe Title I?
A Title I is one title of the Elementary and Secondary
Education Act. It's that title that directs expenditure of
federal monies to improve the educational provisions for
students and schools where there is a high accumulation of
R I C H A R D S m i t h O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
:)
> f .
i! Hr a. Nardo - Direct
1073
V,
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families with 1 C I n l and < « « — students -ho are
educationally deprive within thoie school..
Q would you Please state your educational, your
formal educational background.
K Bachelor of arts. University of Chattanooga;
piaster's in .1— * « y education. University of Chattanooga.
liave now complete about a year of work in a doctoral program
a * .a n M ,.ee at Knoxville. Ky »»jor is in at the University of Tennessee at
g staril areas in curriculumadministration and supervisxon, colla \
and sociology.
q When did you first bect»e eeploy^ in the
Chattanooga public schools?
A 1«1.
And in what capacity?
A Thet time I was classroom teacher, elementary.
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grades one through six. ^
Q b o w l e g were you in that aasignment?
A Between 1951 and 1964 I was classroom teacher:
but part of that time I wa. in special education, teaching a
class for orthop-icaily handicappl and X did two y a « s of
work at school, social worker.
Q what was your next assignment?
A In 1,64 I was assigned a. resource teacher in the
central Office end during that year -a. given the apecial
H . C M * R D S M . T M O E F . C I A L C O U « . R E P O R T t H
U N I T E D S T A T E S D< S T R i C T C O U R T
assignment of working in connection with the Avondale project,
which was under Title IV of the Civil Rights Act.
Q Than, what was your assignment in 1965-667
A Director of the Avondale-Hardy Project under
Title IV, civil Rights Act.
Mra. Nardo - Direct 1074
Q And then the next year?
A 1966 I had a dual role as Director of Special
Projects and Information Services; the special projects being
particularly related to the Civil Rights Act proposal Title
IV. This was the team-teaching proposal project that involved
in-service for teachers and selected schools for the desegrega
tion of school faculties.
Q Then what was your next assignment?
A i continued following that in information services
^ t i l 1968. At that time I was assigned as Director of Title
III project for the development and implemendation of
school which combined an instructional program development with
parent-community involvement. This, incidentally, was under
Title III of Blesmntary, Secondary Education Act.
Q All right. Did you have any part in a request
for federal funds which was transmitted to the Department of
Ilealth, Education, and Welfare on December tae 30th, 1964, that
was entitled "Proposal Regarding School Board Grants for
Programs on nucational Problems Incident to School Desegregation
R I C H A R D ’ H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T * *
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
A i was not involved in the original request for
those funds. After they were funded and the program was —tufy
operational, I was involved in that project. I was involved
in subsequent development of proposals under that Act.
Q I hand you a document that has the heading which
I have previously read that's dated December 30th, 1964, and
ask you to identify this.
A This is the proposal that was submitted . y
Chattanooga public schools Board of Education to seek assistance
under the provisions of Title IV, Public Law 88-351!.
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1075
It w * • proposal for in-service training program
to retrain teachers in desegregated schools.
Q What was the source of this suiterial7
A I beg your pardon?
Q Where did you get this material from?
A This material that we are looking at here?
Q Tea.
A This is from the files in the Federal Programs
Office in which the copies of proposals are maintained.
Q Would you make this an exhibit to your testimony?
THE COURTx Exhibit 72.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
72 for identification, Witness Mrs.
Nardo, and received in evidence.)
R I C H A R D S m i t h O f - f I C l A L C O U R T R k P O R T fc N
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O u R T
THE WITNESS: Mr. Witt, please excuse b m , but I
don't believe I have that particular — yes, I an sorry, I do
Mr*. Nardo - Direct 1076
have it.
BY MR. WITT:
Q Now, Mrs. Nardo, was this proposal approved by the
Department of Health, Education, and Welfare?
A Tes. It vent first for approval to the Board of
Education and these projects are subedited through the State
Department and Regional Office ordinarily. It's finally —
approval was through Health, Education, and telfare.
Q What was the purpose of this program?
A It had, as most of these Title IV proposals have
had, the purpose of assisting in the development of instructional
programs and in assisting teachers as they moved through the
desegregation process. This one was specifically related to
two schools whose pupil populations had virtually resegregated
at the time the School Board was initiating its desegregation
plan.
Avondale was designated as the laboratory center
but other teachers within the schools were involved in studying
problems incident to desegregation.
Q
involved?
All right. In what manner were teachers to be
A The teachers at Avondale School and also at
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R t P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1077
Glenvood School which was a snail school not very far fron
Avondale and which was in a similar situation, worked with
consultants during the tern of the project. The consultants
used — involved sociologists, educational psychologists,
curriculum specialists, and both in school, on site work and
in sections of meetings. They worked in study of the curricular
needs, of the background of minority groups, of the effects of
these on students, and considered ways of improving the
curriculum in the schools during this process.
Teachers from other schools in the City were
brought into meetings to share with the teachers in this
particular center In preparation for continuation of the effort^'
in desegregation.
Q Do you recall the racial composition of the student
body at Avondale at the time of this project approximately?
A If I may estimate, I think it was approximately
five to one, black to white. It had — this had been an all-
white school until the desegregation plan began and then there
was a great amount of movement out of the community so that by
the time this school rcached the point of being desegregated,
the community had resegregated.
I believe there were five — between five and
six hundred students who were black and slightly leaa than
two hundred who were white. I'd need to check those exact
R I C H A R D b M i f H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N l T f O S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1078
1
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2 figures within the proposal to give it to you.
q This Material is in the proposal?
A Yes.
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q Mrs. Nardo, there's an unnumbered page which I
believe is page four in *y copy of the exhibit that states
the problem. That perhaps has the figures you are looking for.
A Page four?
q Nell, it's not nunbered, but it actually is page
four entitled, "Proposal for In-Service Training Programs to
Retrain Teachers in Desegregated Schools."
A Oh.
Tffi: COURTi Last sentence in the first paragraph.
THE WITNESS: Yes. This school, Avondale ttleaentarf
School, began the 1964-65 school year with a total of 107
white children and 575 Negro children, for a total of 682 in
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all six grades.
BY MR. WITT:
q Now, what was the racial composition of the faculty
at that tine?
A This was an all-white faculty and staff. In
connection with this proposal, however, two black professionals
were assigned to work with the teachers as counselors. They
were not at that tine in actual teaching situations during this
first year.
N i C H A R O S M i T H O F F I C I A L C O U H I R f c R O K l f c H
U N I T E D S T A T E S O I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mr * . Waxdo - Direct 1 0 7 »
Q Wa* this the first — was this the first assignment
across race lines?
A These were the first teachers who had actually
been assigned to a formerly all-white school.
Q In the year, again?
A School year, 1964-65.
Q All right. How, hew many teachers were actually
involved in this particular program?
A Hell, on the numbered page four, second paragraph,
the total proposals presented involve 175 teachers and approxi
mately 4,250 students.
Q Do you have the information indicating the racial
composition of those 175 teachers, that group?
A The teachers were from both black — were representa
tive of both black and white schools. On page five under that
portion that's headed, "Procedures," a description of the
group of teachers is included, the total Avondale staff of
25 teachers. These were 25 white teachers. Group B, 25 teacher^
fro; other desegregated schools.
Tills Is not, in this proposal, to my knowledge,
broken down to indicate — not at this point — whether these
were black or white. I can give you that information if I
fumble a little bit here, but this was a mixed group of teachers
in approximately equal proportions. This wia a park of the
R I C H A R D S M . T M O F F I C I A L C O U R T R £ P Q N 1 £ W
U N I T f D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. N«rdo ” Direct
purpose of the proposal.
1080
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Q How were the teachers selected to participate in
this training program?
A The teachers at Avondale, of course, were those
6
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teachers who were assigned there prior to this proposal. The
same thing was true of Glenvood.
The representative teachers were selected.
Principals frota the schools involved were ashed to designate
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representatives who would be able to work within this proposal,
within this project, and then bring back to their schools the
outcome, whatever they learned, whatever they had gained from
it, and share it with the faculty in a representative manner.
0 All right. Can you describe — summarize the
types of programs and classes that were actually conducted?
A You mean with teachers?
Q Yes.
A Three consultants were used within this project,
or three major consultants were used. They were scheduled to
come in series to work with the teachers.
Mrs. Gertrude Noar was the sociologist who worked,
what we considered to be the major consultant within this or
the senior consultant. She waB a sociologist. She had the
background that was needed for this kind of thing.
In rotation, these consultants would come to the
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
M r s . Nardo - Direct 1 0 tl
schools first. They would observe in the classrooms. They
would confor with teachers on site. They spent approximately a
week in this kind of activity within the school. Then they
ould visit in the other schools from which representatives
were brought and then having made this observation and discussed
what was happening with the teachers and problems as they were
encountering them and questions as they arose, then they would
work with the entire group in joint meetings.
The first in order, this included Dr. Noar’s work.
Much of her emphasis here was on helping teachers get an
understanding — the white teachers within this school getting
an understanding of the background of black people, this being
their first opportunity to have worked with black students.
And, there were many misconceptions that needed to be clarified,
many reactions and feelings of the people involved that she
worked on particularly.
The educational psychologist than extended this to
a more in-depth concern about the reactions of students as
they found themselves in situations that involved racial
discrimination that were related to the lives they had led.
And then with this background, the curriculum specialist worked
with teachers in trying to bring in^ ^ prograaa that they
were developing the best of what they had learned while working
with these other — during their work with these other
R I C H A R D S M T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T L R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mr8. Nardo - Direct 1082
consultants.
This was not exclusively confined to work with
consultants. Members of the total instructional staff also
worked in these workshops with teachers and with consultants.
Q For the purposes of illustration, can you identify
one or two particular difficulties that teachers stated that
they had experienced in teaching across race lines?
A The first very obvious difficult was that this was
a situation that was not only new because of the differences in
race, it was new because this was a completely new school to
teachers. They didn't — and the way the teachers come to do,
know the families, as they would have in the situation in which
they'd been teaching in that community before, they have not
known brothers and sisters of these children and the children
did not know teachers as children in the community come to do,
and this made an extremely difficult situation.
Then, the most frequently expressed concern of
teachers, as I recall, had to do with what they at first
perceived to be some language difficulty; but as they worked
it was interesting to see and many of these things that they
encountered as difficulties at first seemed to be problems of
race, later seemed to be more problems of just educational
concern. But, with regard to language difficulties, it just
evolved that this was a communication problem of people who had
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U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1083
lived with different cultural backgrounds and much effort,
particularly with the sociologist and with the curriculum
specialist, was directed to these concerns.
Q In the area of discipline, were there any problems
identified?
A There are always problems of discipline in any
school situation. There were here, many problems of discipline.
It seezaed at first that the tendency of teachers in working in
this situation, out of their concern to do the right thing,
was to bend over just a little bit backwards in trying not to
be unduly strict in their working with black students for the
first time; and this has often been seen as a pattern among
white teachers when they are first in such a situation and
with black teachers when they are first working with white
students.
They are anxious to do the right thing, and inclinap
at first to do a little bending over backwards and things get
out of hand until they have become sufficiently familiar with
the situation to know that you teach children like you teach
children like you teach children.
Q Did the faculty at Avondale which you have stated
was all white, did it remain all white the next year?
A Ho, the succeeding year, black teachers were
assigned to this faculty and in the extension to the junior high
R l C H A R O s m i t h O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S O l S T R l C T C O U R T
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M r s . Nardo - Direct 1084
school level at the following ^ar, black members were assigned
to work in the Hardy situation as well. This had grown out of
the need that had been recognized in working with the Avondale
project for students to have some models of black and white
adults working together.
Q What was the racial coX; oaition of Hardy Junior
High School at the time to which you refer, approximately?
A At the time that this project was moved and
extended to include Hardy or during —
Q (Interposing) No, in —
A (Interposing) First year?
Q First year of the Avondale project.
A Hardy was still all white. The desegregation plan
'ad not at that time extended to that level in the junior
high school. In the following years, this reached those
levels. And, Hardy was desegregated.
Q The term "retrain teachers” is used in this
material. Would you miad explaining the purpose of that
language?
A Well, as I said, I did not write this proposal,
but I believe that phrase was used as it usuaiiy j.s to recogni:
that what we have learned in education and what has been
traditional in education is pjfftty hard to change and it does
require, as we move into new situations, some retraining
R I C H A R D S M T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
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rather theui just extending training that has taken place
prior to t hat time.
We wers dealing with a different situation.
Great many misconceptions that surrounded this whole thing,
and it looked as though, I am sure this mu*:; have been what
went into the choice of that word.
0 After this program was completed, was there an
evaluation made of the program?
A Each of these projects is evaluated in some manner
The evaluation of this one was — not a controlled evaluation
in the case of some that are — efforts are being made to have
more controlled evaluations at this point.
Much of it was subjective, but an evaluation was
made. The consultants were very much involved in this evalua
tion and reported on the outcome of this and particularly for
the purpose of planning subsequent efforts.
0 What was the next effort?
A well, the following year, the Title IV project
was extended and expanded to include Hardy Junior, to move
into the junior high school area to include representative
teachers from the secondary level. Hardy as well as Avondale
was considered a major center for this study. The four a*ajor
centers at this time were Avondale, Glen wood, uardy, and Orcharji
Knob; but in the case of Orchard Knob, in the case of the
> . 1
M r s . Nardo - Direct 1085
H l f H A H O O F F I C I A L C O U R T H t P O H H H
U N I T f O S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
I
M r * . Nardo - Direct 1 0 W
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junior high school*, the major emphasis was centered in Hardy.
As in the case of the elementary, the major efforts were
centered at Avondale.
Q Do you have a copy of this proposal as it was
transmitted after approval by the Chattanooga Board to HEW?
A I believe that I have.
q Would you make this "Exhibit, I believe. No. 73?
TOE COURT: Exhibit No. 73.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
73 for identification. Witness Mrs.
Nardo, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT:
Q For purposes, Mrs. Nardo, do you find your copy
A I believe that's the one I don't have, Mr. Witt-.
Thank you.
Q The date of transmittal is May 19, 1965, entitled,
Proposal Regarding School Board Grant for Programs in Educa-
ition."
A Right.
q Now, please explain the purpose of this program.
A At this time in the desegregation plan, desegrega
tion was moving through the school levels. Hardy Junior High
was the junior high school to which Avondale and Glenwood
were feeder schools. The students moving through those
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U « T R f e P O R T f W
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Mr s . Nardo - Direct 1087
elementary schools would be moving to Hardy as the junior high
schools were desegregated.
The effort here was to extend the assistance being
given to the elementary teachers to teachers at the upper
grade junior high level and to involve — recognizing this
was to be moved through the high school in succession, high
school teachers representing other schools were then involved
in the total effort to work with the teachers with Hardy and
Orchard Knob doing some exchange work to improve the teachers’
understanding of racial differences, to iap..*ove their
curricular efforts as they worked with students in the desegrer
gation process.
Q At the time of that program, had the teachers at
Hardy had the experience of teaching across race lines?
A No.
Q All right. How many schools, now, were involved
how many teachers were involved in this problem, or this
.roject, I should say?
A May I check —
Q (Interposing) Yes.
A (Continuing) — these figures. On page six of
this proposal, general statistical information.
Q What were the two elementary schools that were
involved?
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U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
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A Avondale and Glenwood, the two junior high schools,
Hardy and Orchard Knob; but there were representatives at
this point from the additional schools as indicated in that
statistical information.
The number of teachers was, if I an addin., correctl^
there, about 147 who were directly involved and indirectly
involved representatives in excess of 434 elementary, 200
junior high school, and 195 senior high.
Q What was the reason for the inclusion of Glenwood?
A Glenwood situation was very much like that of
Avondale, it was a school close to Avondale, t m a was a
community — formerly all-white community that was being
rapidly resegregated.
In the first year of the desegregation plan,
Glenwood's racial ratio within the school had become, I think,
i
close to 60-40. That will be included somewhere in this
proposal.
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1088
Jl
0 Are
A I?
Q Yes.
A Yes.
0 Fran
how would you characterize Glnnvood?
A At the time of this project prior to or —
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
M r s . Nardo - Direct: 1089
Q (Interposing) Yes.
A At this point, Glenvood is somewhat higher
economic level than that of Avondale. It is a residential
section that had formerly served — that had formerly been
populated by a comfortable, white middle class. The homes in
the Glenwood area are somewhat more expensive and the community
at this point, I think, is not economically at quite so high
a level as it was just a few years prior to this.
But, I believe it's a little better economic level,
a little higher standard of living within that community than
in the Avondale community. The evidence, based on Title I
survey recently, has indicated that they have not the high
accumulation of poverty that is evident in the Avondale area.
0 Now, what were the total number of schools involved
in this Avondale project, this second year?
A Number of schools?
Q Directly involved, I should say, the staffs from
schools, I guess is the —
A (Interposing) Nineteen.
Q All right. This is elementary, junior, and senior
high?
A That's correct.
Q All right. Now, had students been involved in the
Avondale project the year 1. : mediately previous?
R l C H A R O S M i ’ H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E O S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1090
A H a d s t u d e n t s b e e n ?
Q Y e s .
A O h , y e s , t h e y w e r e i n v o l v e d i n , w e l l , t o t h e
e x t e n t t h a t i t s f o c u s w a s t o w o r k w i t h s t u d e n t s . T h e y w e r e
n o t i n v o l v e d i n t h e s a n e s e n s e t h a t t e a c h e r s w e r e . I t w a s
n o t t h i s k i n d o f p r o j e c t , b u t t h i s w a s f o c u s e d o n s t u d e n t s
a n d t h e n d u r i n g t h e s u n e e r i n - s e r v i c e , a n d t h i s , t o o , w a s a
4
s e c o n d p h a s e t o t h e A v o n d a l e p r o j e c t , a c a s e s t u d e n t s w e r e
i n v o l v e d t h e r e d u r i n g t h e s u s n e r i n s o n s e n r i c h m e n t a n d
I
e x t e n s i o n p r o g r a m s ; t h e A v o n d a l e t e a c h e r s w o r k i n g w i t h t h e n
a n d t h e n t h e t e a c h e r s r e p r e s e n t i n g t h e o t h e r s c h o o l s , s t u d y i n g
w i t h t h o s e t e a c h e r s , t h e k i n d s o f t h i n g s t h e y w e r e t r y i n g t o
g e t i n t o — w o r k i n t h e c l a s s r o c a a s a t t h i s p o i n t .
q l i o w w e r e t e a c h e r s r e c r u i t e d o r a s s i g n e d t o t h i s
project?
A T h e t e a c h e r s w h o w e r e j u s t t h e g e n e r a l f a c u l t i e s
a s t h e y w e r e a s s i g n e d a t t h e s c h o o l s a t t h e t i n e t h e p r o j e c t
b e g a n w e r e t h o s e s c h o o l s i n t h e l e a r n i n g c e n t e r , i n t h e
project c e n t e r s , a n d t h e n t h e r e p r e s e n t a t i v e t e a c h e r s f r o m
o t h e r s c h o o l s a s t h e s c h o o l s w e r e d e s i g n a t e d . T h e p r i n c i p a l s
i n t h e i r o w n s c h o o l s w e r e a s k e d t o d e s i g n a t e t e a c h e r s w h o
w o u l d be r e p r e s e n t a t i v e , w h o c o u l d b e i n a s e n s e , t h e l i a i s o n
U!tv»en t h e s c h o o l i t s e l f a n d t h e p r o j e c t .
Q W e r e t h e t e a c h e r s c o n s u l t e d w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o
R i C H A R O S M T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T * . *
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1091
their willingness to participate?
A The principals themselves, in working with their
faculties, consulted those teachers. Tills was left as the
responsibility of the principals to assign a given number of
teachers; but principals, working with their teachers, rarely
make arbitrary ar» >igsments to this kind of thing.
They work with the teachers and send those who are
willing to do that.
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, I
respectfully subnit that all this detail is irrelevant to
any issue in this case. I request that counsel be instructed
to proceed to relevant issues.
THE COURT: Well, let's proceed.
BY MR. WITT:
Q Were these activities during normal school hours?
A Well, the activities were of two kinds: There
were — you are talking about now teachers?
Q Yes.
A During normal school hours when consultants and
central staff people were working with teachers on site, to
this extent, it was during school hours; but the meetings which
were held for discussion of these things following observation
and interaction with teachers on site, were held in out-of
school hours on Satuniays, after school, and in such sections
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S O I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1092
as these tr.cse that were necessary; and in this project there
were opportunities for teachers to do some visitation In
exchange between schools as in the case of Hardy and Orchard
Knob.
These, of course, were in school hours and at that
time it was necessary to provide substitute teachers —
qualified substitute teachers in order that these exchanges
could be made. That wits a part of the provision of the project
Q Was — were the teachers compensated, given extra
compensation?
A For any of the sessions outside the school day,
they received for the in-service sessions on Saturdays and
so on, they received the amount that's allowed in these at
$15 a day. Beyond that, the teachers received no additional
pay.
Q How many students were involved in this second
phase, approximately?
A On page six near the bottom of the page the number
of pupils involved in the junior and senior high levels —
at the junior and senior high levels, all students probably
will be associated with one or more participating teachers,
because of the rotation of students.
Now, this is directly --- is directed to the
indirect involvement here as teachers went back into their
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1093
schools. That’s the 870 elementary, 5,750 junior high, 4,921
senior high. The direct inv ovenent would be that of the
four — of the major centers within the laloratory schools or
the project centers.
Q These were black students and white students?
A Yes.
0 Were they involved in black and white situations
or just black and just white?
A Students?
Q Yes.
A Both.
0 All right. Now, at this time with regard to
desegregation, what was the status of the system-wide in-
service activities? Were they desegregated or not?
A Oh, as teachers working together in service within
the system?
£ Yes.
A These were desegregated.
Q What about the local professional educational
organization, was it desegregated?
A Let me check ay years here. This was in the school
year 1965-66. It was during that school year that the
Chattanooga Education Association and Chattanooga Teachers
Association, which .is the black affiliate, were merged.
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mr8. Nardo - Direct 1094
Q All right. As a result of this — 1 beg your
pardon — was this proposal approved by HEW?
A \os.
Q Was an effort made to evaluate this as special
in-service program?
A Yea, in a manner similar to that 1 have described
for the Avondale project and extending it at this time
particularly to — in an effort to get teacher reactions,
local teacher attitudes, and changes.
Q Mrs. Nardo, now, what was the next step in this
process?
A The following year, 1966-67, an effort was made
to increase the desegregation of faculties through the imple
mentation of team-teaching proposal submitted and approved
under Title IV of t.'ie Civil Rights Act.
This was a program for — to be operational in
16 selected schools.
It was transmitted April 27th, 1966.
Q Mould you Make this Exhibit 74 to your testimony?
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above w&a marked Exhibit Mo.
74 for identification, Witness Mrs.
Nardo, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT:
Q Now, Mrs. Nardo, explain to the Court the purpose
of this t h i r d step.
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S O l S T R l C T C O U R T
Hr*. a:do - Direct 1095
A As an outgrowth of the work that had been done
previously, it seemed particularly important to provide an
increase in the faculty desegregation to provide black and
white role models for students.
Q Would you lu iTiC explaining what you by role
models?
A Well, there were many students at that time, black
students and white students, who had had no opportunity — hat*
few opportunities to see black and white adults working
together in mutually directed purposes. This was a felt need
in the development of these proposals.
And then — and then it was also recognised that
it \ ould be very hard for students to relate to teachers of
smother race if they had to have the feeling that the teachers
of one race did not like members of the other raoe well enough
to work with them, very candidly and bluntJy put, t M s was
entered into the discussions. And, it was felt that this
desegregation of faculties to meet these needs was particularly
important to the student to the way they would function in the
classroom, to the effects that this process would have on their
learning.
This, then, was directed to the development of an
organizational pattern within these schools that wuld permit
this kind of work with teachers, not merely an assignment of
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U N I R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Direcrt 1096
beachera of one race into a self-contained classroom within
which the teacher would, behind this closed door, teach a small
group of students; but rather, to establish beans of teachers
who would work in joint responsibility for the children that
they taught, giving children an opportunity to relate not just
to a teacher of one race but to relate in this interaction of
black and white teachers working cooperatively. For this
reason, the team teaching, as an organizational pattern, was
selected, and the teens of these 16 selected schools were
desegregated so that they would contain teachers of both
races.
q In this evaluation, did black teachers and white
teachers participate?
A In the evaluation?
Q of the role — need for the —
A (Interposing) Well, yes. This was a part of
the in-service activities at all points, to look at needs
as they arose and problems incident to desegregation and it
was the particular effort of consultants in assisting to
help teachers get recognition of these thirgs. It was our —
assuredly not say that all teachers at that tine had arrived
at a point of seeing these as needs nor — well, any more than
at any one time all teachers can be said to feel anything;
but it was the general feeling of the people whose responsibility
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R I P O R U R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1097
it was to work and maintain the effort, it was the recommenda
tion of the consultant* with whom we worked and it seemed
xvo. d to proceed in this manner.
But, both black and white teachers were involved
in all of the discussions of these projects. That was its
purpose.
Q Mere they also involved in the decisions?
A They were involved in many decisions. I don't
think I could say honestly that they were involved in all
decisions. Some of these decisions have had to be nadu. at
the central staff level throughout this process. You would
prefer to have total involvement of people at all levels in
the school system, but * ‘a extremely difficult to got.
Q Was this proposal approved by the Board of Educa
tion?
A ves.
Q Was it approved by the Health, Education, and
Welfare —
A (Interposing) Yes.
Q (Continuing) — Department? right
How many teachers were involved in this particular
program?
A In the teams within these schools, oa page seven
under ‘‘Statistics,” the last paragraph, second sentence,
R I C H A R D s m i t h O ► F I C * A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1098
"The teams will include 91 white teachers and 106 Negro
teachers."
Q All right. Well —
A (Interposing) If you look down a little farther —
excuse me — the next, almost third from last sentence, “The
teams will serve on faculties which vl11 include 141 white and
'•7 Negro teachers for a total of 408 teachers." Those are
figures for the total faculties. The former figures are for
the teachers actually involved in the teams within these
schools.
Q All right. What do you recall approximately the
total number of teachers in the system at that time, approxi
mately? If you don't recall —
A (Interposing) I really don't recall.
Q Now, these teams would be composed of — each
team would be composed of how many teachers.’
A This varied from school to school. The actualI program developed in the schools was done in terms of the
program within that school, the school offerings, the teams,
the areas within which this team proposal seemed to be most
likely to be effectively entered into; and the teams were
for different varying purposes, so it varied.
I think in some situations there might be as many
as a team of seven teachers who were responsible for a given
H i f H A H O S M ' T H O F F I C I A L C O U H 1 R f c P O R T f c r t
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
I
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8
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1 0
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12
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thing. In acme cases, it sdght be a team of three teachers
who were the teachers for a given subject or area. But, this
varied from school to school in terms of the programs they
were developing for the students within that school.
0 Were these — was each team desegregated?
A Each team in this project was desegregated.
Q All right. How were these teachers assigned or
i
recruited?
A The Assistant Superintendent at that tlnw* was in
charge of personnel and people within that division interviewed
teachers, took applications, how, the teachers within the
school itself as they were assigned at that tine were first
involved. They were not moved in or out for that purpose.
This was the first group assigned, were teachers in that
school.
They were selected in accordance with the principal
worked with his own teachers, the principal's responsibility
here.
- ■ - " . & ■
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1099
Again, I would think that the principal would have
indications were that principals were choosing fox this
initial effort ̂ . . „ ,, ,„ vteacners who they felt would be able to do
this positively and in a way that would provide positive
role models and to give some leadership and develop some
leadership for the continuation of this kind of effort.
R I C H A R D S M i T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1100
TUB COURT: Wonder, Mr. Witt, you feel this much
detail is necessary or appropriate in regard to faculty
desegregation training? Perhaps move along a little bit with
out, seems to me, some of the details, perhaps.
MR. WITT: Well, I think it’s necessary.
THE COURT; All right. Well, proceed. So far
you have outlined three training programs, as I understand,
that have been part of the overall School Board approach to
faculty desegregation.
MR. WITT: It's the best evidence of an affirma
tive obligation to desegregate faculty consistent with the
need.
THE COURT: Not questioning the evidence, only
thing I was wondering is whether some of the details, if you
feel it's necessary or if you feel it’s helpful, why, certainly
want you to proceed.
MR. WITT: May it please the Court, it started
small. It's expanded. It's changed every yaar. It's reached
more people. This 1b the idea to prepare for meeting the
problems associated with desegregation.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WITT: The way a school system is operated.
BY MR. WITT:
0 Mrs. Nardo, what was different — was anything
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1101
different about this program in 1966 from the program of the
previous year?
A There were a number of difference* that focus on
this. One was increasingly a focus on curriculum and on what
was happening within the school and working'with students.
It represented some changes in programs, in trying to get a
joint responsibility of teachers who would have, from their
own background, much to bring to it and to build on what had
been previously studied.
This was primarily the emphasis here, not just on
attitude but on specific programs, what went on in those
programs to assist students. It was certainly different in
the composition of the racial composition of the teachers
involved directly with the students, because this represented
a great increase in — represented an increase in the faculty
desegregation.
q To put this in prospective, do you recall the
stage of pupil desegregation at the time this particular
program was planned?
A As I recall, this was just 1966-67, was the year
v/hen the desegregation of schools, grades one through twelve,
was accomplished at all levels.
Q This is correct. Record will show that. All
right.
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1102
Were there any other differences between tills
program and the previous program?
A It included the direct involvement of a larger
number of schools.
Q How many schools were involved?
A Sixteen were selected to participate in this.
They were selected by invitation at this point. They were
asked if they wished to participate in this and these were
the schools who —
Q (Interposing) Why the decision to request
participation?
A Well, it's — you just get better participation
and more positive participation if people themselves have
had some option in this. And, if — since these — this one,
particularly, had the instructional focus, this called for
some strong instructional leadership and concern about programs
and this was at this point an effort to get the involvement
of principals and teachers and programs specifically related
to what happened to students within this process in the
classroom. Seemed the best assurance that we might get
positive results from teachers.
Q All right. What kind of cooperation did the
teachers evidence?
A Here again, t̂ iis varies. We did feel that there —
WH H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R f- **0 f i ! I h
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
M r s . Hardo - Direct 1103
'' <t- ■ . 1 jf ■.v. , ■-f ••?¥. ■ ; >,•
■ iy - , t
the response to this approach, response to team teaching, was
the most positive response we had had. Evidence of the
teachers involved here in the first cross racial assignments
was indicated positively in their responses at the follow-up
conference in which the teachers who participated in this,
principals and the receiving teachers who had for the first
time had teachers of the opposite race in their school.
This was held at Brainerd High School in 1967, and
the responses were genuine, positive, show that teachers
I . ;
many of them, offered their services to assist in the efforts
to recruit other teachers to accept and to involve themselves
! -ii .
in cross racial assignments.
Q Was there an evaluation of this fourth step in
the teacher desegregation process?
A The team-teaching staff?
Q Yes. I believe it was the fourth step?
A Yes. And the conference I just referred to was
one of the major methods of evaluation of the type of
evaluation especially needed. What had we learned here that
could be translated into what we were going to be doing for
the next year, and this was a part of that evaluation.
Q id this give any indication of any particular
problems with reference to the initial assignment of teachers
across race lines?
R " H A N D S M H O F F I C I A L C O U R T H t P Q R T t W
U N I T E D S P A T E S O i S T R l C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1X04
A Tes. There were a number of things that were
determined in this evaluation about assignments. There were
many things about many things that teachers feared. There were
things that had seemed to prove — ways of looking at this that
seemed to be better another way.
It was difficult, for example, where only one
teacher might be assigned across racial lin»s, whether this
was one black or one white teacher, it was a more effective
way of assigning teachers if teachers themselves were — were j
willing. It was a more — seemed to be a more effective
situation here if some preparation haul been made with and for
the teachers as they went into these assignments.
Those who went in sort of cold without prior
assistance seemed to need it and were free to say so.
Q Were the reports of this evaluation given to the
Super in tendent ?
A Yes, all evaluations.
Q Was the Board advised of the results of this
study?
A Yes. The Brainerd — the materials developed out
of that conference were given to the Board. A committee was
also appointed, as I recall, I believe that was about this
time and from this study recommendations were made for that --
were included in the recommendations to the Board.
W . H A R D S M T H O F F I C I A L C O U H 1
!
N l T E O S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C C K ' R T
1
This was a staff desegregation committee and in-
service committee who worked jointly or very closely at that
time.
Q Do you recall the Membership of this committee?
A Which one are you talking about?
Q That you stated was formed as a result of that.
A I will have to check it. I can recall many of
them, but I won't be quite so as exact if I don't — no. What
I am referring to# Mr. Witt, is a staff desegregation report
and an in-service training committee report.
Q I hand you a document entitled "Chattanooga Public
Schools, Chattanooga, Tennessee, Staff Desegregation Report,
May 1, 1967.“
Is that what you are referring to?
A Yes.
Q Would you make this Exhibit, I believe, 75 to
your testimony?
(Thereupon, the document referred to
above was marked Exhibit No. 75
for identification. Witness Mrs.
Nardo, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. W I T T !
0 Mrs. Nardo, what is this document? What does it
purport to do?
A This is a staff desegregation report. This was
made by a group of people who had worked in at that point, in
R ; r H A R O S M I T H O F f ’ f i A i C O U R T R E P O R T * . H
Mrs. ...\rdo - Direct i.105
U N I T f c D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. do - Direct 1106
developing —
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) Please, Your Honor,
may I have a copy?
MR. WITT: I don't have a copy myself.
BY MR. WITT:
Q Do you have another copy?
A I am afraid I don't.
MR. WITT: Beg the Court's indulgence a moment.
Maybe I can find another copy.
MR. WILLIAMS: Rather than delay, I will look at
it later, if Your Honor please.
MR. WITT; All right.
THE WITNESS; Thank you.
BY HR. WITT:
q Mrs. Hardo, would you continue. What is this
particular report?
A This was a report that was developed following
the conference, the desegregation conference that it involved
teachers, principals after this year, this initial year of
faculty desegregation and stating some of the positions that
were felt to be important in considerations of continued
effort in faculty desegregation. It is as much as anything
else a statement of position at this time that was made by the
people who had been directly involved in these efforts.
R C M A R O S M . T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D ' S T R t C T C O U R T
I
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< j D o e s i t c o n t a i n t h e m e m b e r s h i p o f t h e c o m m i t t e e ?
A D o n ' t b e l i e v e t h i s d o e s . I t h i n . ' ; I c a n r e c a l l p r e t t h r
m u c h t h e m e m b e r s h i p o f t h a t c o m m i t t e e : M r . R o b e r t T a y l o r , M r s .
W i l l i e B l a n c h e L o o n e y , I b e l i e v e M r . J a c k C a r r . I w a s a m e m b e r o f
t h a t c o m m i t t e e . T h e r e w e r e s o m e p r i n c i p a l s i n v o l v e d a s m e m b e r s o f
t h a t c o m m i t t e e . I a p o l o g i z e f o r n o t h a v i n g t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n . I t
i f a v a i l a b l e . I f i t i s i m p o r t a n t t o t h e r e c o r d s , I c a n - -
Q ( I n t e r p o s i n g ) W e l l , w a s M r . H o u s t o n C o n l e y o n
t h a t c o m m i t t e e ?
A I b e l i e v e t h a t h e w a s . A t t h a t p o i n t , M r . C o n l e y w a | s - ■
h a d b e e n a s s i g n e d a t H a r d y J u n i o r H i g h S c h o o l , h a d b e e n i n v o l v e d
i n t h e A v o n d a l e - H a r d y p r o j e c t , s e r v e d a s c o u n s e l o r t h e r e . I
t h i n k i t ' s l i k e l y h e w a s o n t h a t c o m m i t t e e . I ' d n e e d t o c h e c k .
T h e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f c o m m i t t e e s g o i n g o n i n c o n
n e c t i o n w i t h t h i s a t t h a t t i m e .
Q A l l r i g h t . W h a t w e r e t h e s u m m a r i e s — w h a t w a s t h e
f i r s t p o i n t i n t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n ?
A I w o n ' t r e a d i t i n d e t a i l . I t ' s -- t h i s w a s a r e c o g
n i t i o n o f t h e d i f f i c u l t y — t h e d i f f i c u l t i e s t h a t t e a c h e r s
e n c o u n t e r i n a p p r o a c h i n g t h i s b u s i n e s s o f a c c e p t i n g a n a s s i g n m e n
a c r o s s r a c i a l l i n e s a n d r e c o g n i z e t h e i n s e c u r i t y o f t h e i r s a s
t h e y a p p r o a c h t h i s a s s i g n m e n t . S o m e o f t h e f a c t o r * t h a t a f f e c t e d
t h e i r c o n c e r n s o n p a g e - - o f t w o o f t h i s w h i c h i n d i c a t e d t e a c h e r t
w e r e f i r s t w i l l i n g t o a c c e p t a s s i g n m e n t s , l a t e r d i s c o u r a g e d b y
f a m i l i e s a n d f r i e n d s a n d t h e n e e d t o g i v e a d d i t i o n a l s u p p o r t t o
t e a c h e r s a n d c r e a t e a d d i t i o n a l a p p e a l i n s t a f f d e s e g r e g a t e d
s c h o o l s i s c r u c i a l i f w e a r e t o m a k e a V > r e r . K t h r o u g h i n t h e
e x i s t i n g d u a l s t r u c t u r e .
Q A l l r i g h t . W h a t w a s d o n e w i t h t h i s p a r t i c u l a r r e p o r t ?
A T h i s w a s s u b m i t t e d b y t h e c o m m i t t e e t o t h e
R . r H A R U b M - l H O f f i C ' A l C O U N T H f . P O R I f M
u n i t e d s p a t e s d i s t r i c t c o u R '
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1107
I
Mrs. Hardo - Direct
1 i of
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Mrs. biardo - Direct 1108
Superintendent and the Superintendent staff and it was
incorporated into the proposal for the next year end Bade a
basis for the desegregation plan related to faculty desegrega
tion for the next year. Seme of the positions that were taken
here were he positions that were incorporated into that
plan for the extension of faculty desegregation for the next
year.
J
Q At this time, who was the Superintendent?
A Dr. Charles Martin cane into the system just at
the point, oh, in February, I believe, of 1967, just before
this was done, so that actually there was an overlapping effort
to superintendents on this.
At this particular tine when this was published,
iartin had just arrived in the system.
Dr. Martin accept this recommendation?
Yes.
After he accepted this recoemendation, do you
know whether or not it was sent to the Board?
A Well, a proposal for a desegregation plan for the
following year with regard to work with torchere was submitted
to the Board, and I believe — I don't recall whether it was
iincluded in its entirety in the Board minutes, but it was —
if this report was submitted and reviewed for the Board of
Education and their approval was given to the plea for the
H i C h a R D S M T H O F F I C I A L C O U N T R f c ^ O R T t h
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
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Mrs. Hardo - Direct 1109
following year with regard to teacher desegregation; so, it
would have to have been included in Board minutes.
Q I have another exhibit I can't find right now.
If I night, would it be appropriate to take a recess at this
moment?
THE COURT: All right. Five minutes.
f ;(Thereupon, a recess was taken.}
MR. WITT: May it please the Court, Mr. Williams
asked for some information of Mr. James earlier with reference
to the number of certified teachers in various categories and
we have that prepared, and I suppose the way to do it ia
introduce it as the next exhibit to — it would be 66. What
it is is a listing of elementary and high school of the —
THE COURT: (Interposing) Elementary and high
i
school?
MR. WITT: Elementary — separate category is
elementary certified teachers by race, high school by race,
a d then their categories involved professional, professional
trade shop, temporary permit, standard, special legislation
and advanced.
And then there is a list of all the teachers with
itemporary certificates by name, race, and the date that they
i
began employment with the Chattanooga system. Mr. Williams
also asked for sene additional information of Mr. James, and
R i f H A R O S M I H O M - I * I * L C O U R T R E P O R T fc R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Wardo - Direct i
1 1 1 0
this Material is — takes a little bit longer and has not been
yet made available to me.
THE COURT: Allow the last document to be filed
as Exhibit 76. Here is an extra copy.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit Ho.
76 for identification and received
in evidence.)
B Y M R . W I T T :
Q M r s . W a r d o , d o y o u h a v e a d o c u m e n t e n t i t l e d
" S t a f f D e s e g r e g a t i o n R e p o r t , " w i t h t h e n o t a t i o n f r o m t h e
m i n u t e s o f t h e c o n f e r e n c e m e e t i n g o f A p r i l the 10th, 1967?
A Y e s .
q would you make this — would you identify this,
please, what it is?
A C o n f e r e n c e m e e t i n g o f A p r i l 10th. Was a c o n f e r e n c e
o f s t a f f p e r s o n n e l i n v o l v e d i n c o n s i d e r a t i o n o f t h e e f f o r t s
i n d e s e g r e g a t i o n o u t g r o w t h o f t h e s e t h i n g s .
q W o u l d y o u make this the next exhibit?
rHE COURT: Exhibit 77.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit Ho.
77 for identification, Witness Mrs.
Nardo, and received in evidence.)
B Y M l . W I T T :
q H o w , w a s t h i s a f o l l o w - u p o f t h e e a r l i e r s t a f f
d e s e g r e g a t i o n c o m m i t t e e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n w h i c h y o u h a v e a l r e a d y
t e s t i f i e d —
H U ' . H A R O S M T H O ^ T I * L C O U H I R E P O R T E R
J N - T E . D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
ii
:l 1Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1111
A (Interposing) Yes.
0 (Continuing) — to? All right.
Is this a conference nesting referred to under your
! understanding, conference nesting?
A No, this would be the conference nesting of the
School Board. I stand corrected. I was thinking about a
| conference of staff people, but this would haws referred to
the Board's conference nesting held prior to the public Board |
meeting.
q I believe I would like for you to reed this report.
HR. WILLIAMS; Oh, now, nay it please the Court,
1 object to that. The Court is certainly capable of reading,
j THE COURT; Can you not briefly sunaarise the
content of it? Then the Court will read the report.
MR. WITT: All right.
THE WITNESS; Just in suanary?
BY MR. WITT;
Q The essence of the report as you undarstand it.
A this describes the proposed plan for the faculty
desegregation for the following year. First, recognizing
that the effOj.t to maintain the cross-racial assignments
that had already been established, then the additional
assignment across racial lines within the schools who have
been at that time involved in faculty desegregation within
R i C M A H O S M T H O F f - i O A L C O U P ! R E P O R T E R
U M T f c O S T A T E S D ' S T R i C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1112
the teams we referred to indicating the priorities in the
assignment and the extension of this faculty desegregation;
the first being to assign teachers across racial lines to
schools with larger number of students of a given race and
a few teachers of that race to bring this more into balance.
And, particularly, to get beyond the point where
at which there might be one minority teacher in a school and
to add teachers who were in the minority for that particular
school. An explanation of the rationale behind these positions
then the steps that were being gone into, the implementation
of the plan for the next year. This was the point at which
the position was articulated that the vacancies occurring in
the schools other than these 17 throughout the district were
to be assigned with consideration for the race of the teacher
in order to arrive at a better balance of faculty desegrega
tion within all school e .
And then to initiate an exchange of experienced
teachers that had been extremely hard up to this point to get
experienced teachers to move from the positions they held to
go into a school predominantly of the opposite race, and it
was felt that teachers were reacting and resisting because of
unwarranted fears, that there needed to be an opportunity for
t-.hor•. to have this experience in a school predominantly of a
race different than their own; but that before they would do
R I C H A H D » M C O U R ’ R E P O R T E D
U N I T E D S P A T E S ( D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Wardo - Direct 1113
it, they would need the security of feeling that if they got
into that situation, felt were not able to function, that they
were not saying, "This is a permanent situation,* and that was
a small group of teachers.
It was at least initiated for that purpose to
provide in addition to the fixed assignment of teachers across
racial lines opportunities for other teachers in an exchange
i
to get some understanding and break down some fears and
resistance on this matter.
Q Ordinarily, what is the procedure whereby a staff
report is presented to the Board?
A Staff reports are presented to the Board by the
Superintendent on those things that are developed internally
within the central staff or from schools. These go to the
Superintendent and are considered by the Super into r-rV-nt and
his immediate staff. Then they are taken to the Board, usually
in Board conference meeting, which is held regularly each
month prior to the official Board meeting.
No actions are taken in those conference meetings,
but the details, concerns, are studied at greater length than
they can in the total Board — the open Board meeting. Then,
in the monthly Board meeting, all business is transacted and
all approvals are made publicly from these things that have
been studied in various reports from staff.
H I L H A N O S M I H O A f " A . C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S ' A T f s D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Q Is an agenda ordinarily prepared for the conference
meeting, I mean, for the regular Board meeting?
A Always.
Q Does the Board — does the Board limit its considera
tion to the matters brought before it by the staff and the
Superintendent?
A No.
Q But generally, what is the practice?
A Other considerations can be brought to the Board
by anyone who has a concern to bring to the attention of the
Board of Education. They make a request for hearing. They may
\
be heard at the conference meeting or they M y at a regular
Board meeting 1 «* heard or present their reports. Staff reports
from any members of the staff M y be taken directly to the
Board, such things as this that have been an assigned concern
to a group of people working with the Superintendent in essence
will be developed by a number of people. They will go to the
Superintendent. He is often involved in the deliberations
at this point.
Q I hand you a document dated May 8th, 1967, memorandum
to all professional staff personnel from Charles A. Martin,
Superintendent, with his initials affixed. Subject, -Staff
Desegregation Plan for 1967-68."
Would you please identify this document?
R I C H A R D S M T H O K H C ' A L C O U R T R E P O R T EM
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1114
U M T E O S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U » T
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1115
A This was a memorandum from the Superintendent, at
that tine Dr. Charles Martin, to all professional staff
personnel. This would influence all members of central staff
and all people at attendance center level — principals,
teachers, tne total body profession of the Chattanooga public
schools.
Q Would you make this an exhibit to your testimony?
THE COURT: r-venty-sight.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit Ho.
78 for identification, Witness Mrs.
Mar do, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT:
Q Would you please read the first — no, take it
back. What was the purpose of this memorandum?
A For information — to bring to the professional
staff personnel information concerning staff desegregation
plans for 1967-68 by which time staff desegregation is to be
effected well beyond its present extent.
Q Now, did this normally have full distribution to
each member of the staff?
A Would this?
Q This memo?
A Yes, it was addressed to all professional staff
personnel.
Q This would be 1,200 or so people?
u n i t e d s t a t e s d i s t r . c t c o u r t
I
«lrs. Nardo - Direct 1116
A Yes. This is accompanied by a procedure sheet for
Q (Interposing) What is that procedure?
A This was the procedure that accompanied the
explanation of this plan to indicate to principals and to
teac) t*rs and to pr fessicmal staff how the school district and
personnel therein would implement this plan for that school
year.
Q All right. Did it indicate anything with referenie
to responsibility of teachers for staff desegregation?
A it indicated from this point on, I believe, around
this time that the desegregation of schools was the total
responsibility of all professional staff and was acknowledging
that fact and was specifying some procedures for — to be
followed for that total involvement and this responsibility,
Q Did it indicate any plans /or staff desegregation
in the next year?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was this?
A This — these were generally the plans as described
in the report we just discussed and in the recommendations,
this had to do with filling of all vacancies on the basis of
race until the school district had readied a point of faculty
desegregation so that it would not longer be confined to limited
schools.
H U H A R D S M I ' H O f M C I A L C O U R T H k P O W ' k W
U N i T f O S r * ’ E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1117
And then, the — it also had to do with maintaining
the cross racial assignments that had already been accomplished
Q Mrs. Mardo, I call your attention to the fourth
paragraph of the last sentence and ask you to read that
sentence.
A
Q
A
On the first page of the memorandum?
Yes.
"The tentative plan was presented to the Board of
Education, to all school principals, and to a staff desegrega
tion committee comprised of central staff members, principals,
and teachers.”
Q All right. Did this make any refereaoe to a
policy with regard to the involvement of principals in this
staff desegregation undertaking?
A Yes.
Q Would you call our attention to that part, if it's
specifically mentioned?
A Well, the entire attachment here, the procedure
she^c, most of that is in reference to principals and to the
principals' responsibilities.
Q Does it place any particular responsibility upon
the principal?
A It places a great amount of responsibility on
principals to see that the information concerning this plan
R I C H A R D S M i T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R F P O R T M 1
O N i T t O S I A ' F S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Hrs. Nardo - Direct. 1118
was disseminated; to discuss this with their teacher a, to
develop a plan for working with teachers to encourage and
forward the movement, the impetus that had been begun in this
plan.
There were aocae provisions made at this time and
I don't know if they are described in here, for assistance to
principals, offers of help from teachers who had been involved
in such situations and so on. But, the principal was given
the responsibility within his school for working with teachers
in the implementation of this plan.
Q Along this point, I direct your attention to the
last sentence on page three.
A "It will also negate the necessity for the
arbitrary assignment of professional personnel across racial
lines."
Q All right. In this procedure, were — was the
reference to — was there any reference to qualified applicants
in filling vacancies?
A I believe there was. Let me —
Q (Interposing) Believe — direct your attention
to two and three on the page two.
Yes. "Additional staff members will be assigned
across race lines in the 18 schools with desegregated staffs
by filling vacancies whenever qualified applicants are available.
WK H A R D b M i l H Q F H C i A L C O U R T R E P O R ’ fc R
U N ' E H S T A F F S O ' S T R i C T C O i » T
i ?
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Mrs. Mardo - Direct 1 1 1 9
Vacancies occurring in schools other than the 18 schools with
desegregated staffs will be filled with teachers of the
opposite race whenever qualified applicants are available."
Q All right. In the order of filling vacancy, was
any special treatment given to transfers under this policy?
A Are you referring to the exchange of experienced
teachers?
o No. I an referring to the situation in which
there would be a vacancy, there would be a qualified, new
teacher, there would be a qualified teacher that was in the
system that was requesting transfer and there would be a
qualified teacher who was returning frcn leave of absence.
Was there any order of priority or preference to
anyone in these three categories reflected in this policy?
A I an sorry. I will have to examine it to see if
it 13 in this. I don’t see it in this document, Mr. Witt.
q All right. There is an expression used on page
lthree to "pairing of schools." Would you explain that as it
relates to teacher desegregation in the context that of
this policy?
A This was related to what I Mentioned a few minutes
ago, that efforts to get experienced teachers involved in
desegregated situations through the pairing of schools, like
levels, predominantly black with predominantly white schools
O ► ► I i A L. C O U H 1 R t P O N T k W
U N i T f O S T A T f S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1120
in order that teachers of those faculties eight make an
exchange for the year to have sane opportunities for working
in a situation of this sort and hopefully to allay sons of
the fears that sensed to be creating some of the teacher
resistance.
Schools were paired and a plan was devised for the
pairing of such schools. This was made — was given as an
opportunity for teachers. Efforts were made to interest
teachers in this manner, get then more involved.
Q All right. Did you consider this as a school
policy?
A You are talking about this entire —
Q (Interposing) Yes.
A (Continuing) — document?
Q Would you characterise this as an evidence of
school policy with regard to desegregation?
A As regular, we refer to policy as those things that
are statements of the Board in the l>road area and this was
incorporated in the Board's policy; but this right here is
the Superintendent regulations, if you will, for implementation.
Q Is there any ambiguity that you can identify in
that regulation as to its meaning and purpose?
A I think it left a little question as to what the
Superintendent intended to see take place.
H i H A R O S M ' T H O F U C I A L C O U R T R i P O R U W
U N I T I O S T A T t S O I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1121
q All right. Would you explain that? 1*11 refer you
to your Exhibit 75 which was the staff desegregation report.
As I understand, an I correct, May 1, 1967,
Exhibit 75, staff desegregation report was — work product of
|
a committee, initially?
A Yes. You — I believe you are referring to the
one that I no longer have.
Q Didn’t I give you this?
A One that was — thank you.
THE COURTi State your question.
THE WITNESS; I an sorry.
jY MR. WITT;
Q I —
A (Interposing) This was in reference to there
being no question of the Superintendent's intent?
g Yes.
A On this Blatter, the Superintend»nt took very
strong position at this point and felt that it was the position
that needed to be made by directive. And, this was the
general feeling of the people who had been most heavily
involved in this, the feeling that this need — this pace on
desegregation of the faculty needed to be accelerated, and he
took this position and put it in writing and made — stated
as regulation.
H A H O S M ‘ T H O T T ' C I A L C O U R T B M ' O H I I MW • '
U N I T I l ) S T A T F S D I S T R I C T C. O l . R T
ft
This was disseminated among professional personnel
and discussed in principals' meetings.
Q All right. Did the Superintendent at any time
state an ultimate goal with reference to teacher desegregation
and put it in writing with ftrhich you are familiar?
A I think, in many things that the Superintendent
wrote or were included in %rriting from his office at this
time stated the position that the ultimate goal was integration
and he made a distinction between the terns of desegregation
as being an action that would bring people of opposite race
together and integration as being the point at which people
across racial lines of people of different races working
together in mutual respect and joint involvement in the concerni
of education.
I think within the report that you have here,
there may be uritlilsj that relates to this.
~ w 1 1 w.*. f ! >> of resegregation —
A (Interposing) This has been a constant concern
in this city and in this effort. It was in fact the reason
for many of those projects and proposals that have been
developed and related to the feeling of the — in connection
with these reports. This was related to the Superintendent's
position -- position that were taken by staff mes&ers that
it was necessary to show substantial improvement in the
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1122
N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
educational programs while the process of desegregation was
going on in order to give assurance to the cosnunity that
education . f was not going to suffer while this was
being effected and to give — to maintain professional assuranc
that students would not suffer because of the efforts that
were -- were being made as we moved in this direction.
q Now, was there additional in-service training
efforts under Dr. Martin in 1967 with which you are familiar?
A The team-teaching effort was extended a second
year and then this was followed by the in-service, the re
training of teachers at Hardy, the effort there being to get
to work particularly at this time with the school that had a
closer approximation of a racial balance on both students
and faculty.
Here again, back to the reference of the role
models. That was the basis for much that was taking place,
to try to pilot situations that would help others in the
school district and in the community actually see integration
in process. This was a real problem. He had no models on
which to base behavior and reactions, and that wte the Title
IV Civil Rights Act proposal which followed the team teaching
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1123
one.
Q
A
Has this a proposal approved by HEW?
Yes.
R I C H A R D b M ' H C ' f i C i A L C O U R T R k ' ® O R 7 E E
U N I T E D S ' A T F S O I S T R C T C O U R T
1
|
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1124
>
Q All right. Was there any continuation of this
t in the year 1969 — ’68-69?
1 A Yea. This effort at Hardy at that point was a
2-year project.
Q I hand you a document entitled, "Proposal for
School Board Grant Program on School Desegregation Problems,"
• 15 transmitted August 15, 1968.
') Can you make this an exhibit to your testimony?
M) THE COURT: Exhibit 79.
; ]
; i
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
79 for identification, Witness Mrs.
Nardo, and received in evidence.)
iiY MR. WITT;
1t Q Now, Mrs. Nardo, was this a similar program or
i.') programs that you have described earlier?
If) A Yes, sir, it was related. I can't comment quite
i: so specifically to this one as to the earlier ones, because
IK this was a point at which I was involved in another job.
•
10 I was not directing this one at the time, but I am familiar
20 with it from having read it and observed it during its course.
21 This proposal — the purpose of this one, as I said
2*> was related to that effort to work specifically on what was
It happening to students after desegregation had been effected
21 and after a racial balance in the faculty had been effected.
jr> And, this was extended through a 2-year period, trying to get
M H A R O ' H O H ' ( l A L COUH1 R f P t j H ' t H
v j N i T E L ) S ’ A ' F b O i S T R i C T C O U R T
Mr s . Nardo - Direct 1125
at those things that would affect positive interaction of
teachers, students, and parents with their peers and among
each other in this effort.
Q Was this project approved by the School Board?
A Yes.
Q Call your attention to second paragraph on what
is page four, although it’s not number four of this document.
A You say second paragraph?
Q Second paragraph.
A "If positive, social interaction and personal
involvement between the races is to be achieved, new directions
must be charted."
You want me to proceed?
Q Yes.
A "The desegregation of staffs and student bodies
has been at best only an Initial step in opening the door
to improved education for all children and youth. The passage
of time and efforts thus far have failed to achieve the
integration in depth which is necessary for positive inter
racial relationships and for the development of relevant
instructional programs for students within the multi-cultural
school. In such a school, where racial balance is approxi
mated, the major goal sought by those in educational leader8hi]>
must be the provision of equal educational opportunities for
all students.
R I C H A R D S M . F H O f f i l ' i A L C O U R T R f c P O R T f c *
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Direct 1126
"There is no climate more conducive to the improve
ment of intergroup and interpersonal relations than that which
is comprised of cooperative efforts to attain this goal. Such
efforts must involve teachers, students, and comnmnity.”
Q With some experience in the City school system
and with your experience in this particular aspect, that is
educational program, would you consider this to be an accurate
statement of the philosophy of the Chattanooga Board of
Education?
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to that. She is not
competent to testify as to what the philosophy of the Board
is.
MR. WITT: She is competent to testify what her
understanding of it is.
MR. WILLIAMS: What her consideration of that is
is irrelevant to any issue here. The Court must conclude what
the philosophy of the Board was, Tour Honor.
THE COURT: Yes, sustain the objection.
BY MR. WITT:
Q Do you consider this an accurate statement?
A Yes.
0 In the performance of your responsibilities, have
you attempted to act in accordance with that statement?
A Yes.
R I C H A R D S M T H O ^ ' C A l C O U R T R E P O R T E R
u n i t e d s t a t f s d i s t r i c t c o u r t
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Mrs. Hardo - Cross* 1127
HR. WITT: 1 have do further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY HR. WILLIAMS»
Q Mrs. Martin?
A Mrs. Nardo.
Q Mrs. Nardo, I a» sorry. With reference to the
1964 Avondale project, phase one was planned for 75 children,
for 75 teachers of the system for the period of February,
May, 1965, I believe you stated; and phase two was planned
for 100 teachers for two weoko in June. That is correct,
j , j
is it not?
A Yes.
Q How many if any of the 100 sunaer session teachers
were teachers from the original group of 75?
A As I recall, most of the teachers were from the
original 72.
Q Were included in —
A (Interposing) Were included with additional
teachers being involved.
0 All right. Than, we could say approximately
75, then, of the 100 were the original group of 75?
A I believe that's correct.
0 All right. Mow, now, what percentage of the
teachers in the system at that tine were involved in the
R I C H A R D S M i T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E O S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
I
program?
A I * * s o r r y , I c a n ' t q u i t s a n s w e r t h a t w i t h o u t —
Q ( I n t e r p o s i n g ) D o y o u h a v e a n a p p r o x i m a t i o n o f
t h e n u m b e r o f t e a c h e r s t h a t w e h a d i n t h e s y s t e m a t t h a t
t i m e ?
A I a m r e l u c t a n t t o s p e a k t o s t a t i s t i c s f o r t h e
I f * s c h o o l s y s t e m . I d o n ' t k n o w t h e m . I d o k n o w i t w a s
a s m a l l p e r c e n t a g e o f t e a c h e r s , w a s a s m a l l s c a l e p r o j e c t .
Q I a m n o t a s k i n g y o u t o g i v e > x a o t f i g u r e s . D o
y o u h a v e a n a p p r o x i m a t i o n o f t h e n u s f c a r , t o t a l n u m b e r o f
t e a c h e r s i n t h e s y s t e s i a t t h a t t i m e ?
./
A W e l l , i t w a s —
Q ( I n t e r p o s i n g ) O v e r a t h o u s a n d ? O v e r t w o t h o u s a n d ?
t h r e e t h o u s u . o r w h a t , j u s t » p p m Y < n f t ^ ^ y y
A W e l l , l e t m e s e e , I a m g o i n g t o h a v e t o d o s o m e
q u i c k e s t i m a t e s o n t h e b a s i s o f s t u d e n t s .
T H E C O U R T : C a n t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n b e p r o v i d e d ?I
W I T N E S S : i t h i n k a t h o u s a n d , p e r h a p s .
B Y M R . W I L L I A M S ;
Q I b e l i e v e i t ' s p r o b a b l y i n s o m e o f t h e r e p o r t s
s o m e w h e r e . I a m n o t s u r e .
T H E C O U R T : M y r e c o l l e c t i o n i s t h a t t h e r e ' s b e e n
t e s t i m o n y it w a s a p p r o x i m a t e l y t h i r t e e n h u n d r e d .
THE W I T N E S S ; I a p o l o g i z e f o r n o t h a v i n g t h a t
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1128
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R t P O N ' M
u n i t f . d s t a t e s d i s t r i c t c o u r t
I
I
information. I simply don’t.
Q All right. How many of these — can you furnish
us that? Do you have that?
MR. WITT: You have a set. It's on page — you
are asking about what year?
MR. WILLIAMS: The year 1964.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q You mean you were dealing with teacher problems
and you have no approximate idea as to how many teachers there
were?
A Yes, I do have an approximate idea, but at that
point, the approximation would have been, oh, somewhere
between eleven, twelve thousand, I would think — I mean,
I beg your pardon, eleven or twelve hundred, I would think, in
these times.
Q All right.
A But, I can't keep these statistics.
Q Now, how many of those participants from 1965
are presently in the system?
A I can't give you an exact number. Many are.
0 Were any records kept on that?
A Well, the personnel records would show the
teachers participating, the names of the te.**rfcer* participating
are aval.,a le and this would show.
Mr 3 . Nardo - Cross 1129
W U H A R O ^>M T M O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
J N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
M r s . Nardo - Cross 1130 |
Q Mere you director of these projects?
A I was director of the Avondale-Hardy project. I
was for a tine, curriculum, and for a short tine curriculum
director of the teem-teaching proposal. I #as administrative
director of the team-teaching proposal. I was not the others.
IQ Did you consider it important from the standpoint
I
of evaluation — thank you, sir.
Exhibit No. 70, number of teachers starting, '66-67
that's one of two of —
MR. WITTi (Interposing) No. 70.
MR. WILLIAMS: All right.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q Did you consider it important from the standpoint
of evaluation of your project to follow up on the teachers
and see how many of them were remaining in the system?
A At that t i between that time and now, this
has not been done. I would not say that I did not consider
it important. Have not been followed up to that extent.
Q All right. Would you agree, then, that this
was a sort of a haphazard approach?
A You talking about the failure to analyze the
number- involved here?
Q Yes, to spend all this money on orientation of
teachers and then not even follow up statistically to see how
M A U D i M H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R f c P O R t W
U N i T f O S ’ A T E S O l S T R i C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1131
t
11
! !
19
JO
many of these teachers were remaining with the system.
A I don't believe I would consider it haphazard. I
would consider it just the fact that a greau many things were
going on that needed priority attention.
Q All right.
I
A To that concern.
Q Tilings other than the orientation of desegregated
teachers?
A Mo. Less • mphasis on the ntaaber is what I meant
to imply, Mr. Williams.
Q I see. Well, I thought that the number was
important. Wasn't it one of the purposes of this project, to
begin an orientation of a nucleus of teachers that would spree'
rapidly to the entire system?
A Yes, it was. And there are many of those teachers
still in the system and in positions in which they have had
opportunities to use these experiences. But, by the number
X don't have that information. I could do it sore likely by
the
21 Q Is Gertrude Noar the consultant in black cultural
22 problems and behavior black or white?
2! A She is white.
ji Q Do you consider that a white consultant was
jr , competent to provide orientation of black culture?
R I C H A R D S M ' I H O F f ' C ' A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A G E S D I S T R I C T C O U N T
Mrs. Nardo Cross X132
Q Notwithstanding that she was white?
A Right.
Q Is that right? All right. How many if any of the
142 teachers who were involved in the Title IV project th«
following year, that's in 1965-66 year, had been participants
.
the year before?
A By number, I can't tell you exactly. Most of thev
were. The effort was made to keep, once one group had begun
working, to keep — maintain the impetus in the effort in their
behalf and then to increase the number with additional teachers
so that there would be an exchange of attitudes and learning.
Q Thus, would you say that over the one and one-half
years, then, in the first two projects that 142 or less of the
teachers in the system had been involved in these teacher
orientation projects? Would that be approximately true?
A Will you repeat those numbers, please, sir?
Q That over the one and one-half years of the first
two projects that approximately 142 teachers had been involved
in the teacher orientation program?
A I don't think I can answer that without going back
to look at the numbers of teachers here. Again, 1 apologize,
but there have been many of these projects. I can't keep those
statistics in mind.
A I felt that Gertrude Noar was competent to do this.{
» " H A H O S M I T H O f H C l A L C O U N T R E H O R U . H
u N i T t O S T A T E S O l S T R t C T C O U R T
Q And, you have kept no records?
A I personally have not. The number of teachers
involved are matters of record, but I have been in other
positions since that time, and I have not made reference to
that number.
Q But, Mrs. Nardo, in light of your statement, in
light of your statement that most of the tenchers — most of
the 75 who were involved in the spring of '65 were also
involved in the hundred who were involved in the summer —
A (Interposing) This is true.
Q And that then most of that 100 were also involved
in the 142 who were involved the following year?
A This is true.
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1133
Q Would it not necessarily follow that the 142
represented approximately all of the teachers who had been
involved, approximately?
A Approximately.
Q Thank you. Now, then. In the team-teaching
structure, there is typically a master or supervising teach&r
handling the team, isn't there?
A No, we did not use master teachers in our team,
teaching organisation. This was a matter of much concern.
We did not designate teachers for this purpose.
Q Why not? Isn't that customary in the team teaching!?
W ' l H A H O S M f H l l l M i l * L r O U H I W t M Q H T l K
U N I I I |i S T A t J S O l S T R i C T C.OilH
!|
A It was in early efforts in team teaching. It is
no longer felt to be the best approach in working with this.
Q C o u l d i t b e , M r s . N a r d o , t h a t t h e r e a s o n t h a t
y o u d i d n o t s p e c i f i c a l l y d e s i g n a t e a m a s t e r t e a c h e r b e c a u s e
y o u d i d n o t w a n t t o d e s i g n a t e a n y b l a c k t e a c h e r s a s m a s t e r
t e a c h e r s ?
lj Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1134
: o
i i
1 i
i >
! 1
I ')
I ()
i:
! H
19
20
l
A N o , t h a t c o u l d n o t b e t h e c a s e .
Q W e r e t h e r e i n f a c t a n y t e a m s w h i c h w e r e o p e r a t i n g
w h i c h w e r e h e a d e d b y b l a c k t e a c h e r s ?
A T h e s e t e a c h e r s — t h e s e t e a m s w e r e n o t o p e r a t i n g
i n t h a t h i e r a r c h i a l m a i m e r . T h e s e w e r e t e a m s o p e r a t i n g a t t h e
s a m e l e v e l o f r e s p o n s i b i l i t y . T h o r o w e r e n o m a s t e r t e a c h e r s
b e i n g u s e d f o r t h i s p u r p o s e .
Q T h e r e w e r e s a n e t e a c h e r s , t h o u g h , w n o s u p e r v i s e d
o t h e r t e a c h e r s , w e r e n ’ t t h e r e ?
A T h e y w e r e , w e c a l l t h e m , r e s o u r c e t e a c h e r s w o r k i n g
i n t h i s t e a m t e a c h i n g a p p r o a c h .
q T h e y w e r e t h e o n e s t h a t s u p e r v i s e d t h e t e a m ?
A T h e y d i d n o t s u p e r v i s e . T h e y a s s i s t e d . W e l l , I
a m — p e r h a p s s e m a n t i c s i n o u r t e r m " s u p e r v i s o r s . ' * T h e r e w e r e
p e o p l e t o g o i n s c h o o l s a n d w o r k o n s i t e w i t h t e a c h e r s , b u t
n o t s u p e r v i s o r y .
Q A l l r i g h t , i i o w m a n y o f t h e s e t e a m r e s o u r c e p e r s o n s
w h o w e r e l e a d i n g w e r e b l a c k ?
H i f H A R O S M T H O F f i C l A L C O U R T R h P Q N T t k
U N ' T E D S t a t e s D I S T R I C T C O U N !
Mr s . Nardo - Cross 1135
A At the elamentary level, there were four resource
teachers used in the team teaching, first teas teaching effort
Two were black — no, I beg your pardon — yes, two were
black, two were white.
Q Who were these, please?
A Mrs. Ethyl Hixson, black.
Q This was at Avondale?
A No. You are talking about at the team teaching
proposal?
1 \ A. Yes.
A not Avondale. The team tcac-nug proposal
was later.
Q All right. Who were the others?
A On the team teaching ?
Q Yes.
A Addition to Mrs. Hixson?
Q Resource person.
A Mrs. Rosa Marsh, black; Hrs. Alice Hill, white.
Q All right.
A Mrs. Lewis Davis, white.
Q They were the leaders, then, is that correct?
A These actually were the people working at the
closest level with the schools as resource teachers.
C i n what schools were these '.-teaching projects
R i r n A H O S M T H O F T ' C I A L C O U R T R f c P O R ' F
U N ' T t o S T A T F S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Cross
initiated?
1136
10
11
13
! I
IH
19
.’()
21
■>•)
23
21
A Will you excuse me while I get that? Then wore
eight elementary schools, as I recall.
Q Were they primarily — there were five, I believe,
there were five black and two white, weren't there?
A I believe it was five-three, but I'd like to check
it to be sure.
Q Five-three. I are sorry. My mathematics falter
occasionally.
THE COURT: Some of the previous exhibits.
THE WITNESS: Thank you. I believe this will help.
Yes, there were five black elementary schools, three white
elementary schools.
BYMR. WILLIAMS:
0 What were the three white o<.aa7
A Barger, Cedar Hill, Ridgedale.
0 They were all pretty much in a black area in town?
A No. Barger is east of the ridge in the Brainerd
area. Ridgedale iB a centrally located school on Dodds Avenue.
Cedar Hill is at the edge of the city, close to the Rossville
line.
Q
they?
A
They did all have black students, though, didn't
At this time?
R . C H A R D S M ' T H l C l * L C O U R T R E P O R T E D
U N ' T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo Cross 1137
Q Yes.
A NO.
Q They had no black students in 19667
A I don't believe that Barger had any black students!.I
I don't recall whether Cedar Hill had or nor.. If they did,
they did not have many. Ridgedale did have. The reason being
i
that none had enrolled. It was open to —
Q (Interposing) All right. Now, the team-teaching
project involved l”'? teachers, did it not?
A I believe that's correct.
Q How many of these had been former participants?
Would you say that most of them likewise had been former
participants?
A I am sure that many of them had, because leader
ship for the continuation and this kind of effort were
identified in the earlier project.
Q All right. So, with all this in-service training
and practically no pupil integration, what was — what has
been its total effect?
A You are talking about the team-teaching or this?
0 Yes. What do you say has beer, the total effect
of this in-service training which you cover, wouldn't you say,
that all of your in-service training touched less than 200
of your teachers directly?
H l f M A H U b M ' I H O f A l C O U R T R f f O R K
U N I T E D S ’ A T F S D ' S T R i C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1138
A 1 would have to again calculate, but I think it
ha:; touched store than that.
Q In terms of direct in-service training?
A Direct involvement, I think there must indeed
have been more than 200 teachers.
Q Approximately how many would you say that it
touched directly?
A I am sorry, I'd do some calculation for you, but
I can’t just read it off that quickly.
Q Oh, would you say that it toucried as many as
300 teachers directly — direct involvement who are presently
in the system?
A Oh, you say you are presently in the system?
Q Yes.
A I would not say specifically — a specific number.
because I don’t know. 1 will check that information for the
Court and get it if we need it.
0 All right.
A I just don't have it.
0 All right. That's fine.
Mow, you would agree, would you not, that only
a relatively small percentage of the school staff and faculty
have . eer» touched directly by these projects?
A Yes.
H u H A R D S» M • ! H O f f " 1 A l C O U R T R k P O R T t K
J N t T F O S ’ At f c S O I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1139
Q Would you not? All right. And, bearing that in
mind and with the program not continuing in force during the -
)
during the limited pupil desegregation that has occurred from
'68 to the present tine, do you think adequate in-service
training and the problems of integration has been and is being
conducted?
A No.
0 All right. The approach — the approach that
has — and this effort that has been expended, has been expended
at a cost of nearly half a million dollars to the Federal
Government over those years, hasn't it, when you add the
§62,941.39 in 1964, §101,960.00 in 1965, $250,132.37 in 1966,
and $64,100.00 in 1967 — it cosies to nearly four hundred fifty
thousand dollars, close to half a million dollars, doesn't it?
A I am sure that's correct.
Q
i
And, we have spent that much money in the City of
Chattanooga trying to talk r*o or three hundred white teachers
into finding out about race problems, haven't we?
A You are asking me?
Q Isn't that true?
A Not trying to talk teachers into this, trying to
affect what happens as teachers work with the students in
this.
Q Is it possible to assign teachers?
N H ' M A H O S M ’ H C ; F F ‘ | Al C O U H l W t P O H T t K
j N i r i o b - A T t s o i s r m c i c o u * ’
'0
n
11
IK
20
21
2 \
Mrs. Nardo - Cross
Yes.
1140
Q And, if we had assigned t ao ers to the schools
on a nonsegregated basis, that is, by breaking up segregation
and putting the teachers in the schools, that five hundred
thousand that half a million dollars could have been spent
on in-service training programs and working out problems while
they were actually operating on desegregated basis, couldnt
we?
A I am sure it could have.
And what, tell me this, was the concept of in-
service training, anyway?
A Assistance to teachers while they are in the
working situation.
Q All right. Mould you not agree that assistance
to teachers while they are in the working situation of racial
integration, then, carrying out the in-service training concept
can be better afforded while they are actually integrated?
A I am afraid I didn't quite hear the first part
of your question.
Q If in-service training means what it says it
does, then it is not itatu.lly in-service training to try to
orient teachers on integration until they are actually in an
integrated situation?
A Yes, I would agree with that.
H A H O S M H O F H C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T * *
U N I T E D S T * T F S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1141
Q So that, would you not agree, Mrs. Nardo, that
approximately 66 percent, at least, that approximately two-thirds
or maybe 75 percent, let's say, between 66 percent and 7 j
percent of the teachers in the Ciiattanooga uchool system have
had no in-service training or orientation?
A No.
Q On school integration?
A No. I would agree that an approximation of that
percentage may not have had this particular in-service
but these were not the only effort:; that were made in in-
service for this purpose.
Q All right
A Many —
Q (Interposing) What other efforts
A (Interposing) In-service is * regular pert —
in-service that's locally supported, in-service that's
supported on other funds and projects. There's in-service —
much L - arvice that's conducted within the schools themselves,
led by staff members or principals involving inter-school
work or the use of consultants; and throughout this term
there's been very little in-service that we have been able
to conduct in the City of Chattanooga for whatever ptopose
that this concerns for school desegregation did not enter.
Q All right. In Exhibit — so that you would agree
R H A R D s M U H O f M C I A l C O U R T N ► P O R T f R
U N H I D S T A T F S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mr s . Nardo - Cross 1142
that In view of the limited in-service training for any
purpose whatsoever, there has been very little in respect to
orientation on school integration except for these probleas?
A i don’t think I can wholly agree with that. I
recognize that I said that I did not feel that we had had
adequate in-service and I don’t. Perhaps that’s a perfectionist's
joint of view, but I do think we need to make it clear that
this was not the only in-service. This was a difficult thing
to do. It was an effort to get to the point at which we could
in a regular on-going way be sure that this was included in
the general in-services that were conducted, and I think to
some extent that has been effective.
Q The problems — the problem that you were confront id
with here, wasn’t it, Mrs. Nardo, was the problem to which you
alluded earlier that you were trying to orient to school
desegregation in a situation where you were not actually au
integrated school system. You mentioned that in your report?
A This has been very much a part of the problem.
Q And, in a situation where you were talking to
teachers about orientation on school desegregation and the
teachers still had a segregated education association, tUU^n’t
they?
A They d id up t o a p o i n t . They qo n o t now.
Q But, believe you said it was 1966 before the
R i C M A H D b M ' M O F F I C I A L C O U N T R t P O R U H
U N I T E D S t a t e s D I S T R I C T C O u R
Mrs. Wardo - Cross 1143
teacher associations were integrated?
A This is true later.
Q Here you are in 19 — pardon me.
MR. WITTj Let the witness answer the questions.
MR. WILLIAMS: I interrupted her* yes, I beg
your pardon.
THE WITNESS: Yes, that was the year and then
it was even later than that that that state of professional
association was merged. This was a part of our difficulty
here, too.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q And, likewise your in-service training programs
were segregated here in the City school system at that time,
weren't they? Didn't you say that they were desegregated in
1966?
A You are talking about general meetings within
the system?
Q I am talking about your in-service training.
A Our in-service programs, to my knowledge, at this
point, these were in some sense segregated.
Q When were they integrated?
A We'd been conducting joint meetings, professional
staff and in-service programs for professional staffs on a
bi-racial basis before the Supreme Court dcision. Our
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
N I T E D S P A T E S D i S T R iC T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 114<
meetings were not segregated at this point.
Q You didn't have any segregation in in-service
training at all in the sixties, i* that right?
A I can't say that, but it was not done, you see,
if you had .n in-service at a specific school that was
specific to the needs of that school, if that school at any
given point was not — did not have a faculty that was bi-
racially composed, then the mix would have been in staff
members who were working with then and at some point, of
course, along through here, there have been such schools.
Q In-service is primarily conducted in the
schools, isn't it?
A Well, I am referring to at the attendance center
level as opposed to bringing groups of teachers from many
attendance centers together. There were both types of
in-services.
Q But, isn't the major in-service training conducted
at the attendance center?
A I am sure that will depend on its purpose. We
have in-service that's being conducted all over the city
during the summer.
Q At least some of it is conducted?
A Yes, some of it is.
Q And that was still segregated because you had
U N I T E D S P A T E S D t S T R . C T C O U R T
I
segregated faculties?
A At that point where the faculty was — was not
j ■’ -gated.
Q And so we came back — we come back to the
situation that whatever the school system was trying to do
with regard to teacher orientation was first hampered by the
fact that the school system was itself keeping the schools
segregated?
A I think this is true. it has been difficult.
Q And, also, the so-called effort to integrate the
schools was hampered by the fact that a voluntary approach was
I
made, wasn't it?
A I am not sure that I would wholly agree with that,
because of the things that we have seen when the very few
occasions — when assignments of personnel are made arbitrarily
and against teachers' wishes. You get a bad reaction and
ones that are extremely difficult to cope with in a school.
This has negative effects on students, so I can't be wholly
in agreement with that.
Q Have you ever seen a situation where all of the
teachers wove reassigned so as to achieve racial integration?
A I worked consultatively in other school districts
where t h i 3 has happened.
Q In */I«at school c. *? _ricts?
R v M A M O S M i I H O M l L i A l C O U R T R f c P O R ! » W
U N i T f D S T AT F S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1145
*r«. Nardo _ cross 1146
A There are some — well, I am having to think
back, now. I have worked with some school systems in Alabama,
South Alabama, in —
Q (Interposing) What school district in Alabama,
in South Alabama, have had all their faculty reassigned according
to the proportion —
A (Interposing) I beg your pardon. I don't know,
certainly, that all of them were reassigned. I know that
schools were closed and faculties were reassigned in relation
to this.
Q You mean black schools were closed and faculties
reassigned?
A I believe this was the case, yes.
Q NO —
A (Interposing) In such situations as this.
Q No, ma'am. The question I -ua inking you is have
you hi.; any experience in a school system which reassigned
all of its teachers to --
A (Interposing) Total?
Q (Continuing) -- schools —
A (Interposing) Total turnover?
Q (Continuing) — in order to achieve racial
integration?
A No, I have not to that extent.
Mi l H A R O S M I T H O f f I C i A L C O U N T W f c P O N l t W
U N I T F O S T A T F S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1147
Q So, then, you cannot say as to what bearing or
significance, if any, this factor of unwillingness on the part
of teachers to be reassigned would have in that situation,
can you?
A That would be pure conjecture.
Q All right. Now, then, to go back to that just
a little bit. You have indicated that there — that whan
teachers are assigned arbitrarily that they — that there
may be some bad results. Now, do you have any specific
instances of that that you know about?
A i can recall situations in which — for reasons
that had nothing to do with the desegregation, a teacnar has
had to be reasaigned or to be sent to a school against their
wish and working with the teachers and this is where most
of my time has been spent. I have seen this create most
difficult situations.
Q What do you mean by most difficult situations?
You know that's a generality, Mrs. Nardo.
A Well, I am not trying to hedge the question, but
just not to get into too much specifics, because this was
not related to our integration. This was related to personnel
problems.
Q All right. Did the teacher go on and teach?
A This teacher taught, but she created extreme
R l ' M A P O S M 1 H O F f l C i A i C O U R T R £ P O R T E H
U N I T E D S T A T E S O i S T R i C T C O U R
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1148
difficulties and interaction with studfShlts. This was a
'k
capable teacher I am thinking about at the nonent. She was
ft!"
a most competent person, but her attitudes were so disturbed
and so upset that she kept her children upset and disturbed
even to the point, I can recall, of unloading on them her
reactions because of this change of assigns* nt and I can
remember finding her in tears, pointing this out to students
and getting them stirred up — that kind of thing disturbs
children.
Q That’s one teacher. Was she then reassigned?
A You are asking me if she was sent back? She was
reassigned eventually into another situation, and it was —
she --
Q (Interposing) Was she successful in the third
situation?
A She was competent in many ways. She was not
successful in interpersonal relationships and she had —
she brought this to students and continued to do so.
Q Is that teacher still in the system?
A I believe the teacher I am thinking about right
now, I have had to check, retired, had — has retired.
Q Was she an elderly teacher?
A She was not an aged teacher. She was a mature
teacher — mature in years. She was not —
R I C H A R D S M i ' H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1X49
Q (Interposing) I don't nertn was she ninety.
Was she over fifty?
A I don't —
Q (Interposing) Was she ovrr fifty?
A At the time this occurred? I doubt it. She may
have been approximately fifty at that time.
Q All right. Now, then, did you follow her
after that, after this?
A Only in the way that, as you sort with schools,
you see things that are happening.
Q You did not follow her particularly?
A Not specifically.
Q So that you don't know how she ultimately wound
up in the system, do you?
A Yes, I know that she wound up ultimately in the
system being an unhappy teacher.
0 All right.
A And reacting very badly, negatively, in person.
Q Now, do you know — do you know what relevance
this reaction that this teacher may havn nad to her original
competence as a teacher?
A I felt that it impeded.
Q I didn’t ask what you felt. 1 asked you —
A (Interposing) Do I know?
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O l . T f H
U N I T E O S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U I T
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Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1150
Q Yes, do you know?
A I could not document it.
0Q You didn't evaluate — were you charged with her
evaluation?
A Ho.
Q All right. How, you have named one teacher. Bow
many other teachers like that have you had in the course of —
how long have you been in the system?
A Since 1951.
Q Since 1951, how many other teachers?
A This was not intended to r uggest that as being
the only situation within the development of this effort.
Q Approximately how many teachers can you say that
you know have been reassigned against their will and had
results that were damaging?
A Hell, it has not been the policy so far as
integration to assign them against their wills, but —
Q (Interposing) But, it has been in other instances
A Only in special cases, but with connection with
tills project, the teachers who were in the Avondale School and
in some of the situations, that point, were asked to remain
in those positions. That was not an arbitrary assignment or
tranafei from another position. This made an extremely
difficult thing for them.
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0 | Mrs. Nardo, you indicated that allieit it has not
been the practice in regard to integration to assign teachers
against their will, teachers have been admJnistratively assigns*
against their will for other purposes.
How, then, I an asking you you know of any
teacher who was administratively assigr ad against her will
other than the teacher you have mentioned, whom you can describe
any damaging result in regard to it?
A Yes.
Q How many? How many?
A This takes a little shuffling, because these are
things that happened —
q (Interposing) I assume this conclusion is based
on some empirical data.
A I am basing this on work vith tesabers and in
schools where this has occurred and where I have seen this.
Q Tell me vial: it's based oa.
A I would say in terms of thr.se I know and those
whom I have seen working in the schools. I would have to limit
it to a figure ten or less, but with — aud this over a period
of years.
q over a period of how many years?
A Well, during my term in the system. I can't tell
you.
R K H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L c o u r t r e p o r . e w
Mrs. Naft-do - Cross 1151
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U f T
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Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1152
Q Since 1954?
A During the tier that I ha"e been — ployed in the
system, would be most particularly during the ties when I was
working from the central level, getting into sore than one
school.
Q Now, then, all right, ten or eleven teachers,
you say, have had unfavorable results by arbitrary assignments?
A Now, I said ten or eleven teachers who to ny —
in ay observation, I an basing that on an estimate, please.
Let me get that in the record.
Q Yes.
A On which I have had the feeling that this did
not affect great change, it juat moved the situation from
one place to another. And the negative feeling that was
engendered, was carried into this, was my concern the stud— ts
were affected by it.
Q Well, do you remember each ot/s of those
ten or eleven cases?
A I doubt that without some rtudy that Z could
list specifically.
Q All right.
A But —
Q (Interposing) What you are really talking about -
MB. WITT: (Interposing) Would you please let
U N I T f c O S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
I
the witness —
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) Sure, yes, sir.
THE WITNESS: I am equally certain, during the
period of tine that I hare been working in the system, I have
run into situations where — now, let ml qualify one thing.
I said assigned against their will or arbitrarily.
Sometimes maintaining a teacher in a position who
is crying to be mowed, in my work with teachers, seems to be
the Bar*; kind of thing. So, maybe that some I am considering
are those who vere in either of these categories. I doubt
that in this situation I could reel off inmtis, I would not
wish to, because of personal considerations. But, I feel quite
certain that I could check records and find those.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q Now, then, you say there have been ten or eleven
teacher.? like that that either by retailing in the position to
which they vere assigned or by assigning them without consultin' |
them there were unfavorable results.
Have there not been also iuaerous teachers who,
as a matter of administrative necessity, reoaived arbitrary
assignments and as to whom there were no unfavorable results?
A I can't qualify this, because I haven't worked in
personnel. I have worked in schools, and most of ay work has
been directed to problem situations, if you will, the problem
Mrs. Nardo - cross 1153
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1154
situations are those that most likely stund out in your mind.
You may well be right.
q so, then, there could be an untold number of
teacher;; who were arbitrarily assigned and who had no problems
at all?
A This is quite possible.
q You just happened to remenber over the period
of twenty years that you have been in the system the ones
that — the ten or eleven who had probisms?
A Yes, and I am particularly concerned of the
students' reactions where this has happened.
q of course. Let me ask you this; Mhen teachers
evidence problems that are being transmi tted in their teaching
to the children, then some adjustment is made ordinarily, is
it not, as in the case —
A (Interposing) In sons cases,
q (Continuing) — of the teacher you mentioned,
isn’t that a reassignment?
A In extreme esses.
Q Adjust —
A (Interposing) In extreme cases.
0 well, what do you mean by that? Do you mean by
that that there are sometimes teachers who have problems who
don't get that — don’t get noticed by the supervisors, is
H u H A N D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R F P O R T E R
U N I T E O S T A T f S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1155
that it?
A That's a part of it, I am sure.
Q All right. But, if teachers are committed to the
principle of equal educational opportunity, would they be
likely to harbor these insurmountable hard feelings?
A If they are committed to it, I don't think so.
I think the range of commitment in a schoox system of this
size is vast.
Q So what you are saying is that you are employing
teachert who are not committed to equal educational opportunities?
A Ms are working with the teachers who are and
have been in our employment. I am sure in any such social
situation you have vide variation, and we do.
Q What you are saying, then, is that you are —
that some of the teachers who are — already been employed
for a long period of time may not have or may have varying
degrees of commitment to a^ual educational opportunity, is
that it?
A I would say this, I would not confine it exclusive:,
to those. These differences are in all of us.
Q Oh, were you aware, however, that the personnel
director tells us that he is employing only teachers who
commit themselves to equal educational opportunities?
A I believe we are talking about, I think, perhaps
y
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
M r s . Nando - Cross 1156
what I am saying is not the sane thing that Nr. Heustess
referred to. I think in personnel assignment this is, "Are
you willing to work in a desegregated school," if I read it
correctly.
What I an talking about is commitment that
teachers feel actually to work, to further this with their
students and in their faculties. I think there is a variance
in this and in the whole of society.
Q Mrs. Nardo, do you apprehend that if we coorlnue
to assign teachers on an integrated basis, only on the
of thei.r volunteering or their being willing to teach in an
integrated school, that we will ever achie,re actual removal of
racial segregation in the faculties at any time in the near
future?
v
A Don't like to make projections but I do feel
that some such assignments will be necessary to effect what
we are trying to effect at some point.
0 That same arbitrary assignraert will have to be
made?
A Yes.
Q And, actually it's just a matter — matter of
the extent of those, isn't it, matter of the —
A (Interposing) Extent and raainsr from my viewpoint
And, I apologize, again, for these qualifications, but I do
N I C H A R O S M I T H O f M C I A L C O U N T N L P O R T I N
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1157
take very strongly this position that v*. nsed to give considera
tion to the way we are doing this because of the effect on the
students eventually.
Q Well, to sun up your testimony, though, in that
regard, would it be correct to state that you feel that you
are not so nuch concerned with the objective as with the manner?
A Ho, that is not true. I an concerned with the
objective and committed to it, but —
Q (Interposing) You are coaetitced — are you
committed to the objective of removing the racial identity of
these schools?
A Yes.
Q So that one —
A (Interposing) Yes.
0 (Continuing) — faculty *on't be tailored as a
white faculty and another as a black?
A Yes.
Q You recognize that they are tailored that way
at present?
A I recognize that this is generally true in
cities throughout the country. It is true here.
Q And —
A (Interposing) They are not tailored that way.
They are that way.
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P C F T t R
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Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1158
MR. WITT: May it please tie Court, direct Mr.
Willianas to let the witness —
TCB COURT: (Interposing) Allow her to complete
her answer.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Simply sajin3 they are not tailored
that way in the sense of being designed to be that way.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q Why not?
A They are that way.
Q May I asi you whether or noc they were tailored
that way when the law said that schoolu should be segregated
and had a criminal provision making it a crime for a white
teacher to teach in a black school, were they tailored that
way?
A They were indeed tailored that way then.
Q Minina ted in Chattanooga?
A No, air.
Q All right. Then, they were tailored that way,
weren't they?
A I beg your pardon? My reference was to their
being tailored by this Board of Education who is the object
of this suit. They were not. They were tailored at the point
at which they became the legacy that we have to work with.
N I C H A R O S M i l H O F F I C I A L C O U R T H t P O R T M
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Q You indicated, did you not, that an unfavorable
result could be secured not only by assigning teachers on an
arbitrary basis but retaining her in am unfavorable position,
didn‘t you?
A If I may clarify my position.
Q Did you or not indicate thct, ma’am? You can
explain afterwards. Did you or not, whin we were discussing
the question of the impact of arbitrary assignment on a
teacher and you were mentioning the ter. or eleven, didn't
you say that some of them might not have been arbitrary assign
raent3 but might have been arbitrarily retaining the teacher
in an assignment after it became apparent that she was being
unwilling —
A (Interposing) Yes, I said that after it was
apparent that they wanted to —
Q (Interposing) Wanted to leave?
A Now, this was not related uo race, you remember
I vas talking about other types.
Q I know that was not related to race, but in saying
that, you recognized that the negative retention of something
can be as much action as positive action, didn't you?
A Yes, yes.
Q All right. Mow, don't you similarly, as am
intellectual and as a woman working on your doctor's degree,
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1159
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O F r t R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
recognizs that the negative retention cf segregated teacher
assignments can be just as positive as if you re-established
it the next day after the Supreme Court said it was unconstitu
tional? Don't you have to recognize that?
A No. I have to recognize it only with qualifica
tions in recognition of s o m e other related things.
Q What other qualifications?
A Well, you said that it can be just as, your wore
was just as negatively affecting as. I can’t, Mr. Williams,
consider this out of context. I am commit ad to this, but as
I said, particularly to the manner in nvich it's done, because
there are a great many factors being affected and interacting
at this time. This is the only reason for my qualifying these
statements.
Q Mrs. Nardo, assuming the damaging impact on the
child that you have now admitted — that you previously
admitted, what is the difference in the damaging impact on
that child before the law is declared unconstitutional which
keeps faculties segregated and after the law is declared
unconstitutional wherein faculties are retained segregated,
what is the difference in terms of the impact on the child?
A I was not referring to a difference in impact.
I think that was an extremely negative impact. So is this ont
but I think we need not repeat all our mistakes, only a few oi
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1160
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U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1161
them.
0 You will concede that there is no difference in
terms of the actual effect?
A On children?
Q On children.
A Hell, only in terms of severity of difference and
both have been severe. I wouldn't want to even qualify — they
are both difficult.
Q All right. If you had the measure — if you had
a measure, what in your opinion has been t-»e effect of this
half million dollars that was spent in the four years in 1964
through 1968?
A The most significant?
0 In terms of teacher integration.
A The most significant effect? There have been
many. I think this has been the enabling instrument that's
made it possible to break through large measures of resistance
that were existent at the time we began. This was -- there
was resistance and I feel that this has been broken down. I
think that we have reached a point at which we have much
capacity for positive interaction, much positive interaction
among professional people of both raccn, and wo have at least
begun to get a core of leadership of people who can work in
this, speak to it, take positions in it, serve in the schools.
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I t h i n k t i i i s m o r e t h a n a n y t h i n g e l s e h a s b e e n t h e
v a l u e w h i l e I r e c o g n i z e t h a t i n t e r m s o f a c c o m p l i s h m e n t o f i t s
a c t u a l o b j e c t i v e s , t h e s e p r o p o s a l s n e v e r a c h i e v e a l l t h e y
i n t e n d t o . B u t , I t h i n k t h e e f f e c t s h a v e b e e n g o o d . I d o u b t
t h a t w e c o u l d h a v e g o t t e n t h i s f a r a t t h i s p o i n t w i t h o u t
e x t r e m e d e t r i m e n t t o t h e e d u c a t i o n a l p r o g r a m w i t h o u t t h e s e
i n s t r u m e n t s .
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1162
Q well, t h e n , w h y h a v e n ' t w e t h e n h a d m o r e v o l u n t e e | r s
f o r c r o s s o v e r t e a c h i n g ?
A P e o p l e a r e f r i g h t e n e d . W e w e r e , I f e l t —
Q ( I n t e r p o s i n g ) B e —
M R . W I T T : ( I n t e r p o s i n g ) P l e a s e t h e C o u r t , M r .
W i l l i a m s c o n s t a n t l y i n t e r r u p t s t h i s w i t n e s s .
T H E C O U R T ; W e l l , a l l o w h e r t o a n s w e r .
BY MR. WILLIAMS;
Q G o r i g h t a h e a d a n d c o m p l e t e y x i r a n s w e r .
A A t t h e p o i n t o f w h i c h w e h a d , a b o u t t w o y e a r s a g e ,
m o v e d f o r w a r d t h e l a r g e s t m o v e i n c o n s t r u c t i v e d e s e g r e g a t i o n
o f f a c u l t y , I f e l t t h a t o u r i m p e t u s w a s s u c h t h a t w i t h i n a
s h o r t w h i l e w e c o u l d h a v e a c c o m p l i s h e d t h i s f a c u l t y i n t e g r a t i c n .
I t h i n k t h e r e h a v e b e e n t h i n g s t h a t h a v e b e e n e x t r e m e l y
f r i g h t e n i n g t o c i t i e s a n d c o m m u n i t i e s a n d t o u s a l l d u r i n g
a .
t h a t p e r i o d a n d p a r t i c u l a r l y i n t h i s c . t y t h a t h a v e s l o w e d t h i s
i
i m p e t u s d o w n .
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U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
So, I think we can't credit all of it to failure
of these efforts. Those efforts had begun to get results, but
there have been external and internal factors in change.
Q What factors?
A I am talking about the factors internally that
this school system has been subject to many changes in
administration, not only its top administration, but has under
gone total central staff reorganization, changes in the Board,
that gives us now a Board just beginning to develop as a unit.
It has to do with the factors that were involved in the racial
incidents that developed at Brainerd in teams of student
unrest. It has to do with the reactions in the general
community to things that are happening tnroughout the nation.
Q So, then, the impact of these teacher orientation
programs that you had was not able to withstand these factors
which you have mentioned?
A No, I don’t -- I doubt in-ser/ice could have
withstood this wholly.
Q So, as a matter of fact, don't you have to con
clude, :hen, that this type of in-service which seeks to
persuade people to volunteer without actually assigning the
teachers to the schools is ineffective as a method of integration?
A if you are saying — well, you have said it has
been ineffective.
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1163
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U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1164
Q 111 at it is ineffective as a method of integration.
A In-service — I don’t think in-service alone can
be the method of integration. I think we nave to go through
some things before we could get a poin; — to the point which
Mr. Heustess could or others in such positions could begin to
make assignments, where other types of plans could be made.
Q So, then, what you are saying is that the Board
of Education has in effect delayed the integration of faculty
while it went through these in-service programs?
A No, sir, I did not say that they had delayed it.
I think they have forwarded it by these — think these have
been the instruments.
Q You concede the faculties are not effectively
integrated?
A I do.
Q So, then, has not been delayed pending these
programs?
A No, sir, it has not been delayed pending these
programs. These programs have been instruments to get as far
as we have gone.
Q You mean by that these programs have been the
instruments to assign a few white teachers to some black
schools?
A No, sir, that's not what I said. I said these
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Mr3. Nardo - Cross 1165
programs have been the instruments we hare used to get as
far as we have gone.
Q What do you mean by get as far as?
A To reach the point of which wtj would be able
to --
Q (Interposing) Integrate?
A Integrate the faculty, to desegregate faculties,
and to initiate programs that would make it possible to go
farther. I don't want to be argumentative on this, but I do
feel strongly that these things have been steps in that direc
tion and these have been instruments.
Q They have been steps but we haven't got there
yet.
A I agree entirely.
0 All right. And, we could have gotten there in
one month, couldn’t we, teachers could havi been reassigned ir
one month, couldn't they, Mrs. Ilardo?
A It would be very extremely hard thing to do in
one month. It could be done in a very ohort period.
0 Well, in what period of time — what period of
time would it take to — would it have tak.?n in 1965 to
reorganize the school teachers, the faulty, and staff in
Chattanooga so as to integrate the schools and remove the racial
identiflability?
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Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1166
A I can't qualify that in time. I would hope if
this ever happens it's done with a little more consideration
than one month.
0 Could it bo done in two or three months.
A I think two or three monthc, rame-wise, body-wise.
movement-wise, yes.
Q Yes. And, then — and then, the in-service
traininc
they?
programs could have gone on simultaneously, couldn't
A Assuming that the schools were still operating.
Q Yes. Well, you mean by that that somebody —
that the community or something would have closed the schools
dcwn, is that what you are talking about?
A
you knou
This is the point of major concern, I am sure
U Quite a major concern is cuasaunity hostility?
A I was not concerning —
Q (Interposing) Why did ym bring that up?
A Because this has been a pattern that we have
seen around the schools where things have been done too
arbitrarily and without reasonable planning. This has, on
many occasions, closed schools and had most negative effects,
sotting school* back. We tried to avoid this.
Q Mrs. Nardo, do you consider six years — six
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E P
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Q
years a reasonable planning time?
A No, I do not.
Q For integrating faculties?
A No, I do not. I would have hoped it would have
been accomplished long before now.
Q Yes. As a matter of fact, it could have been
accomplished back in 1965 and there could — and the in-aervi
programs that you mentioned could have been initiated
simultaneously to smooth the way?
A I have agreed to that point.
q Yes. You know why the School Board didn't do it?
A Yes — well, I can’t say *hat I know why. I can
tell you why I think it was not done. I can’t tell you —
Q (Interposing) I don’t want your conjecture.
A All right. I can’t.
0 You can’t state any reason why they haven't done
it, can you, that you know of?
A That is not conjecture? Ho.
THE COURT: Do you have much redirect?
MR. WITT: Perhaps.
T ill. COURT: If we can, I would like to complete
the witness — well, let's go ahead some further.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITT:
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1167
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E D
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
0 lire. War do, in twenty years you have been in the
City school system, what has been the policy with reference
to assigning teachers against their will?
A it has never been the practice in initial assign
ment or in reassignment to assign teachers against their will
except in incidents whore there are problems that require
this as a solution — personnel problems of teachers or
difficulties that seemed sufficiently serious to warrant such,
an assignment.
Q Do arbitrary assignments upon the basis of race
reflect the acceptance of some risk, with regard to what happen^
in the classroom and to the teachers, in your opinion, and
based upon your experience?
A In my opinion, when you atm dealing with pro
fessional people, any time you make such arbitrary assignments
you risk affecting the extent to which they can work effectively
with tho student arid consequently the students.
MR. WITT: Ho further questions.
THE COURT: Any further examination of the witnes^?
Anything further?
MR. WILLIAMS; Nothing further.
THE COURT: I assume Mrs. Nardo may be excused
at thi3 point then?
(Witness excused.)
Mrs. Nardo - Cross 1168
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Conley - Direct 1169
THE COURT: Anything further, now, before we take
the noon recess?
MR. WITT; No, Your Honor.
THE COURT; If not, we will adjourn court for
one hour.
(Thereupon, the noon recess was taken.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(Thereupon, pursuant to the xvxm recess, court
was reconvened and the following further proceedings were had
and evidence introduced, to-wit:)
THE COURT; Prepared to proceed, gentleman?
If so, you nay call your next witness.
HOUSTON CONLEY,
called as a witness at the instance of the defendants, being
first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows.
BY MR. WITT;
Q
A
Q
A
DIRECT EXAMINAT ION
Would you please state your full name?
Houston Conley.
Would you please give your present employment?
Have a joint department with Peabody College and
Chattanroga Public Schools. T work as i specialist for
professional development for the Chattenooga Public Schools a*fd
serve as adjunct professor for the Peabody College.
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R *
Q Dr. Conley, would you please state your educa
tional background, your formal educational background?
A BS degree from Alabama A4»M College; MA from
University of Tennessee, majoring in administration and super
vision, collateral areas in sociology and psychology; doctorata
degree from the University of Tennessee, mnjoring in education
administration and supervision, collateral areas, curriculum
and instruction and sociology.
Q Dr. Conley, when did you first become employed in
the City school system?
A Fall of 1958.
Q What was that assignment?
A As a fourth grade teacher at Calvin Donaldson
Elementary School.
Q How long did you remain in that capacity?
A For five years.
Q Through 1963?
A in the fourtli grade, now, I moved up to the sixth
grade for two years. I was at Calvin Donaldson until 19G6.
Q ’66?
A Uh-huh.
Q Then what was your next assignment?
A The next assignment was — I was assigned to Hard(y
Junior High School without a title.
Conley - Direct 1170
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U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Conley - Direct 1171
Q Were you present during Mrs. Nardo’s testimony
with reference to the Avondale project this morning?
A Yea.
Q Were you a part of any one of these projects?
A Yes, I was part of the Hardy project.
0 This was in 1966, I believe/
A
Q
A
Right.
What part did you play in that?
Doing the in-service part. I served as a discussion
leader at one time. When I say one time, 1 mean it was a
series. I served as discussion leader and then as a part of
the Hardy faculty, participated in many of the in-service
training programs that they had.
Q All right. How long had you remained at Hardy
Junior High School?
A I remained there until '6ft.
Q What was your next assignment?
A Supervisor of curriculum lor the Chattanooga
Public Schools.
Q All right. When did you secure your doctorate?
A December of 1970.
Q How long did you remain in the position of
supervisor of curriculum?
A Until March of '69.
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U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Conley - Direct 1172
Q And then what was your ast ignment?
A That's when I took leave to do graduate work for
my doctorate.
Q Did you have — did you participate in any of
the in-service programs that Mrs. Nardn described after 1966?
A Yes.
Q Would you name these, please?
A That was the Hardy project., as I indicated earlier.
Q Continuation of that?
A Right.
Q In 1967 and 1968?
A Right.
Q All right. During 1970, during 1969 and ’70, did
you have any responsibility in the City school system in
Chattanooga?
A Not as such. I was on sabbatical leave, but I
would come back periodically and work; bur just only a few days
at a tine. I had no major responsibility during those months.
0 What was the subject of your doctoral thesis?
A The subject in essence was looking at the
apprehensions of teachers and what they had by working in
schools where their race was in the minority.
Q I hand you a document entitled "Special Program
v .<
for Educational Executive Development Prospectus," would you
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U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Conley - Direct
please identify this?
1173
A Yes. This is a program that the Chattanooga public
schools entered into along with George Peabody College to helf
train future administrators for the urban setting of Chattanooga?
Q Would you make — excuse me.
A This was entered into August of 1970.
Q Would you make this an exhibit to your testimony?
THE COURT: Exhibit 80.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
80 for identification, Witness Mr.
Conley, and recei'/ed in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT:
Q Now, Dr. Conley, would you tell us about this
program? Iiow did it develop?
A This program was the outgrowth of a need that
people in Chattanooga felt that future administration should
bo trained or administration now should be trained or the
ones that we have should be retrained in some method that may
have be^n different from what we have done in the past.
And, we were looking for jome approaches and
we found that George Peabody College was interested in
establishing some kind of outpost, and so, jointly. Dr. Lawrie
asked me to go to Peabody and relate to Peabody some of the
concerns that we had in terras of urbar. setting and then sit
down jointly to try to outline the program that, hopefully,
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
1174
would aid i alleviating s o m of the pntbleaa that we have,
especially by training administration vivo may in the future be
employed in administrative roles.
q All right, llov did you undertake to carry out
this role? What did you do?
A well, I serve, as I indicated earlier, as an
adjunct professor. I worked — we have 18 people now in the
program. I work with them once a week. They get college
credits from Peabody. This summer they rill go to Peabody,
be on that campus all summer, and then nexu fall I will continuk
to work with them here and hopefully they 'JOuld get a degree,
summer of *72, or get an Ed.S, which in a kind of a certifica
tion beyond the master's degree.
So, the problem really has to — it can lead x,\ two
directions. It can lead toward a master's degree for those who
don't have master's, and lead toward an Ed.S degree or of
course 1*ad toward a doctorate for thoue who are already
possessing a C h u r ’s degree.
Conley - Direct
Q I see. What is the raciai composition of the
18 individuals that are in your program!
A They number 14 blacks and 4 whites.
Q When did this program start?
A The classes started Januiry of '71.
Q And how long will they continue?
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U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Conley - Direct 1175
A Probably be July of '72, but I guess you are
talking about the program or the classes? The classes will be
over next week from the January semester b,isis, so they will
be over next Tuesday night for the first olssa.
q but, the program itself will extend?
A Run through July of ’72 fcr these participants.
It is hopeful that January of next year if there are enough
wanting to participate, we will be able to start a second
class. So, if that be the case, then we won't know when it
will be ready to begin.
q Dr. Conley, of the If people that are in this
program, were any of them involved in lie in-service program
that started out with the Avondale project and went on up to
Hardy Junior High School?
A Hot that — I don't know.
q i hand you a document entitled "The In-Service
Education Catalog, Chattanooga Public Schools, 1971."
Would you please identify this?
A Yes. This is an is-service program that was an
outgrowth of a survey made this year by Education Programs.
And, it identifies concerns and needs that we have collected
and gathered through a questionnaire and from this — put in
formally ~~ and this is the program designed for in-service
training for the summer of 1971.
R i H A R O S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T L O S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Conley - Direct 1176
0 Does thia program have any reference to what is
referred to aa croeaover teachers?
A No, not aa such. You know «ra have to use the
term "crossover teacher" here, bet eventually I hope the word
•crossover teacher,* would substitute it for another term,
because when you use crossover, that's — we got a dual system
because if you didn't have a dual system you wouldn't have
to use the word. So, hopefully, be more tnward a unitary
.joteEi so therefore we don't have the term in here, crossover.
q All right. But, then, is there any treatment
in this in-service program of the educational aspects of a
cross — well —
A (Interposing) Nell —
q (Interposing) Crossover teaching situations,
is it —
A (Interposing) Nell, I guess what you are saying
is there anything in this booklet that would relate to the
problems that are encountered because of the crossover situa
tion?
Q Yes.
A If that be the case, I would say the closest thing
to that would be like the social studies area. You have to
deal with problems of people and the content could take any
form that you wanted it to, and that would be the closest
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T H I ' J H U h
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
tiling to getting at problems encountered by teachers in
situations as we just talked about.
Q All right. Is this — this program entirely for
the aummertism?
A Yes. This is j.at for the suasser. X think the
first one starts June 14th and I think the last one sometime
in August, like August 26th, 27th, something like that, or
23rd, 24th, 26th, 27th, the last one.
Q During the last year, have you had any
responsibility for in-service training workshops in the area
of crossover training?
A xv*. We have worked with crossover teachers
one time. We had an in-servioe, I guess wa had two major
objectives providing — to accomplish, one, to talk about
some concerns they may hava and the otv*r one wee to see what
they know now they wit»h they had known in September. And the
latter ?ne was to give us sosm type of indication of what we
should do in terms of planning and orientation programs f^r
the teachers that would definitely be comiag with us in the
fall of '71. That's for the teachers and X have had in-service
trainiix<j with principals.
The general these is just to talk about how do
you involve people that we haven't whether you want it or not.
This is what they are going to have to fave. And, one of the
Conley - Direct 1177
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Conley - Direct 1178
things I say in administration that we have* not been trained
to do is to involve people into — how to turn it into a
positive thing rather than a negative thing. So, that's —
that's the general theme of the in-service far the principals.
Q Dr. Conley, did you have any responsibility at
Brainerd High daring the spring of last yerr, 1970?
A When you say responsibility, try to get it open
and keep it open but had no authority at Brainerd Junior High
School.
Q Did you —
A (Interposing) Worked as a bird of a consultant
there.
Q I see. Doctor, I hand you a document dated
April the 12th, 1971, addressed to Dr. James B. Henry.
And, Dr. Conley, frankly — would you make this
Exhibit 32, I believe, to your testimony?
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marled Exhibit Ho.
82 for identification, Witness Hr.
Conley, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT:
Q What does this purport to accomplish?
A This is am outgrowth —
Q (Interposing) Oh, excuse me I forgot to get
you to make the in-service training pamphlet Ho. SI.
THE COURT: Exhibit 81.
R i c h a r d s m i t h o f f i c i a l c o u r t r e p o r t e r
U N I T E D S T A T E S O l S T R I C T C O U R T
Conley - Direct 117$
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was walked Exhibit No.
81 for identification. Witness Mr.
Conley, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT;
Q Now, Dr. Conley, what is this report about?
A This is summation of a report submitted by the
group that participated in an in-aervio- training for the
crossover teachers and it lists the concerns, the actions, and
feelings of the participants and they are classified in terns
of teacher relationship, teacher-student relationship, teacher
administrator relationship, curriculum needs, in-service needs
and we have a miscellaneous concern item, also.
Q Now, this wort.shop that was conducted, what was
the date of that v. >r’. shop or dates?
A I think March 21st, I thi vk it was.
1
Q Of this year?
A Right, *71.
Q now many people participated?
A Approximately 60.
Q You recall the facial composition of that group
approximately?
A I do not.
Q Was composed of both white and black?
A Yes.
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E . ’ O R U H
U N I T E O S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Conley - Direct 1180
2 Q Haw, in the — I notice this list, the group
' leaders — is Mrs. Thonpson a black or white?
.
12
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or white?
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Black, she's a black social worker.
All right. Is Mrs. Charlie Mae Hutchings black.
Black.
Mrs. Echols?
Black.
Mr. Murphy?
Black.
Mr. Black?
White.
Mr. Markhan?
White.
Mr. Snallridge?
White.
Dr. Sanders?
20
22
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A White.
Q What is Dr. Sanders' responsibility in the City
school system?
A He is director of federal projects. I think his
title is Director of Pederal Programs Development or something
to that effect.
MR. WITT: No further questions.
R I C H A R D b M H H O F F I C I A L C O U R T W f c P O R ( H
U N I T F D S T A T F S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Conley - Direct 1181
id
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CROSS KXAKIHATIOM
BY HR. WILLIAMS:
Q
A
Q
Dr. Coiley, when you started teaching in 1968 —
(Interposing) '58.
'58. Yes. And, did you teach continuously from
* 58 until you decided to do your graduate education?
A I taught froai *58 until '6$.
Q *61?
A To '66, to the spring of '66, and then I transferred
to Hardy Junior High School.
q You have indicated a need to eliminate the dual
system that exists in Chattanooga?
A Yes, I have.
q it never has been eliminated, has it?
A Mo, it hasn’t to my knowledge.
q You know of anything that would have prevented
the Chattanooga School Board from abolishing segregated facultias
in 1960 when tills suit was filed? Do you know of anything
that would —
MR. WITT: (Interposing) I object to this line
>■>
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of questioning. That was not covered in the direct examination.
THE COURT: Well, he may — the cross examination
is not limited to the direct examination. You cannot use
cross examination in an area vnere there <ras no direct
R I C H A R D S M I I H O f H C l A L C O U R T F i P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S O I S T R I C T C O U R T
examination, but there is no limit to the examination of the
witness other than relevance.
BY MR. WILLIAMS;
Q Do you know of any adminiatra:ive reason why the
Chattanooga School Board could not have abolished segregated
faculties in the schools of Chattanooga immediately after this
suit was filed in 1960?
A I know of no adsd.nlstrativ* reason why they
could not have done so.
Q In your opinion, how long would it take to admin
istratively reassign teachers in the schoo ls in each school in
the system in approximately the seme percentage that they are
that there are students in the system?
A I would say sons would consist of about the —
two or three months, I think you probably sould do it.
0 I believe that — have yoti ever worked with Dr.
Vcnditti up at the Title IV Center?
A Yes, I have.
Q University of Tennessee? Explain what that is
just briefly, not any long —
A (Interposing) That's jusc a center which aids
system* that want to integrate their school system. This is
a professional assistant paid by the Tv 'oral Goveriment to
do so.
Conley - Cross 1182
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Q And, is it your opinion that any tine since 1960
in 2- or 3-months1 tins that it would have been administratively
feasible for the City of Chattanooga school system to integrate
its teachers in that fashion?
A I would say in 1966 it would have been feasible
to integrate at that time.
Q All right. You say it would have been feasible
in all respects at that time?
A Administratively, I say it would have been
feasible, yes.
Q All right. Mow, then, would it have also been
administratively feasible to abolish segregation in the pupil -
in the assignment of pupils to schools?
A You know on paper, yes. Mcv, whether or not we'd
be able to get the buses in that length of time and had them,
you know, in the schools, I don't know; but I think we could
have.
Cooley - Cross 1183
Q
A
Q
Prepared —
(Interposing) Process to do that.
Could have outlined a procera and reassigned the
children to the schools?
A Yes. Whether we would have buen physically able
to get them there, you know, within an "X" number of days,
that I wouldn't be able to answer at this tt.uja.
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U N T R l P O R T t N
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
q Hell, would you aay it would haw* been
administratively feasible to do it within two or three
Conley - Cross 1184
the
time?
A I would say probably so.
q yes. And, do those same statements still hold
true for faculty and pupil desegregation today?
A I have no further data that would indicate any
thing definitely.
q All right, with regard to the first special
program for educational executive development, aren't there
courses or subjects listed simply in toe area of general
administration with no emphasis on human relations, education,
or special problems of administration iu an integrated school
or social, psychological dimensions of integrated education?
a Yes.
q All right.
A We have one course, introduction to adainistratior .
Content doesn't change a great deal. We will be dealing with
problems, urban problems, how to involve people, be aware of
yourself, and others, and hcv others affect you. Ihen you
have sociology, urban community would be another; and then
during the year they will work on problems as they relate —
as they relate to their setting, that means, like one person
stationed at City High School. That person would identify
R I C H A R D S>Mi I H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E O S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
a problem at City High School as, you know, as he sees at
that given tine and then we will try to work on it and try to
c a m e up with a solution and look at the restraining forces,
look at some of the facilitative forces and things of this
nature.
And then, he would get sons credit for doing it
from that nature, so that the titles here do not in itself,
as you well know, dictate the contents. Hut the contents will
be varied somewhat from titles that are listed.
Q Those courses are not directed specifically
towards the preparation of executives to handle integration —
school integration.
A Hot just school integration, hut we feel that
school integration is part of a<Jbeiniatratim, I naan, that
would be problems so this is train the* as administration for
the problems of school integration would be nore of a rounded
person than try to train them just for integration.
q Yes, I understand; but. Dr. Conley, that course
of training that you have established and 'that you are
carrying on woui£j have been and would be good for the school
system regardless of any question of integrating the schools,
wouldn’t it?
A Yes, sure.
Q And so, it is not specially directed towards the
R I C H A R D S M I T H O T H C » L C O U R T R k R O N H M
Conley - Cross 1185
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integration of the schools, is it?
A -specially directed to the prubL
encountering in Chattanooga public schools.
q The total problem?
A '<>■ ? al problems.
Conley - Cross 1186
are
I
q Yes. All right. Mow, than, with regard to the
in-service educational — what is this, in-service educational
catalog? Don't you really have to grasp for straws to cone
up with any subject content in here which Is related to
preparing to teach in an integrated school?
A Vie were preparing in this in-service catalog
by the (jane thing we were preparing hero.
Q Yes.
A We were not just trying to prepare then for
just integration problems but we were trying to prepare them
for our problems in — this catalog reflects such as we see
it.
MR. WILLIAMS* Yes, all right. Thank you.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITT:
q Dr. Conley, Mr. Williams asked you a question
about whether or not the desegregation of staff would have
been administratively feasible. I belxeve he used the year
1961. Now, if you were operating under court order that
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R F P O R T R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R
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Conley - Redirect
contained this language:
1187
“The Board of Education M r adopt any administra
tion or transfer plan as it may in its judgment be reasonable
or proper for the operation of the Chattanooga public schools;
provided that no administration or transfer plan may be based
upon race and have as its primary purpose the delay or preven
tion of desegregation in accordance with the plan herein
provided."
Could you, if you were operating under that kind
of a restriction, could you have desegregated staff without
regarding race?
NR. WILLIAMS: I object to th.\t, if Tour Honor
please, because counsel is now asking the witness to interpret
this Court's order. I believe this Court is perfectly capable
of interpreting its own order.
THE COURT: Yes, sustained.
MR. WITT: Your Honor, Mr. Williams, by his
question has implied that acting under this order, this Board
could have taken race into consideration when he well knows
that they could not have done so legally at the time that
decision was made and at a time he asked this man that question
he knows that it would have been unconstitutional for this
Bo«r^ i.o have made a decision based upon jsoe. And, too —
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) I don't know any
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R F > O R T f c W
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Conley - Redirect 1188
such thing, if Tour Honor please. I believe the Supreme Court
has recently said that it would have been quite constitutional
for the l-oard to do that.
THE COURT: Well, in any event, it is not proper
to ask the witness to interpret a previous order.
MR. WITT: All right.
BY MR. WITT;
Q Dr. Conley, if you were advised by legal
counsel that your decisions with regard to the desegregation
of the faculty had to ignore race, could you have desegregated
the faculty?
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to that, if Your Honor
please. That's irrelevant to any issue in this case.
MR. WITT; Irrelevant?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, what Dr. Conley would do if
advised by counsel in a natter which --
THE COURT: (Interposing) Yes, perhaps we are
getting a little off issue. The issue, gentlemen, in this
case is whether or not the Chattanooga schools are in compliancy
today with the law as it exists today. And, I think we should
stay with that issue instead of asking hypothetical questions
about what you would have done in accordance with the law as
existed at some previous time.
MR. WITT: Mr. Williams naked the question with
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R 1 R F P O R T t H
U N I T E D S T A T F S D I S T R I C T C O U R
il
ll
1 Cooley ■ Redirect xl89
o regard to 1961, I didn't.
THE COURT : Well —
i MR. WILLIAMS* (Interposing) That was asked —
‘
THE COURT: (Interposing) Tour question is
<> irrelevant and I assume »\is is, too.
-* MR. WILLIAMS: Well, if the Court please, mine
• 1 was askod in order to — in order to bring out evidence
0 relating to the issue of good faith which may be an issue in
i f ) this.
! 1 MR. WITT: No further questions.
; •> MR. WILLIAMS: No further questions.
i i THE COURT: Anything further of this witness?
11
(Witness excused.)
r > ROBERT ARMSTRONG TAYLOR,
1 6 recalled as a witness at the instance of the defendants, havinc
1 7 been previously duly sworn, resumed the stand and testified
1 8 further as follows:
• DIRECT EXAMINATION
2 0 BY MR. WITT:
21
0 Mr. Taylor, I direct your attention to a document
•)>> which is Exhibit No. 70 in this proceeding, and it's entitled
2 3
"Statistical Report on Staff Desegregation, Chattanooga Public
2 V
Schools, 1970-71."
2f>
Was this prepared by you or under your supervisio U ?
H. < M A R C ) M 1 T ) i O F F I C I A L C O U R T H t P O R U M
U N I T E D S T A T E S ( D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Taylor - Direct 1190
A Under my supervision.
THE COURT; What document?
MR. WITT: No. 70.
BY MR. WITT:
Q What was the general purpose of this presentation
I near, this preparation?
A By the Superintendent and the Board of Education,
the present data or the data on the present status of the
desegregation of staff in the Chattanooga public schools.
Q All right. Call your attention to page one of
two and describe this, please, for the Court and for the
I
record.
A Page one of two, the title of the report, "Tenth
Day Organization Professional Staff Assignments for System
by Year." And, "A, Summary of the System Professional Staff
Assignments."
This is the report you want me to describe?
Q All right. What does -- explain your first
column and what you are trying to do.
A What is shown here by years beginning in *66-67
to the current year, the enrollment of staff in schools that
were former Negro staff, schools of former white staffs and
with a total for the schools, "K* through 12; then special
centers is a section, the central staff is a section, and the
H l ( H A N D M ' M J l A l C O U R ! » > i r \R i y n
N* ti . s n i f j :' • s t r k . r ■ u u h :
Taylor - Direct 1191
I
g r a n d t o t a l o f a l l t h e p r o f e s s i o n a l s t a f f i n t h e C h a t t a n o o g a
p u b l i c s c h o o l s .
H o w , t h e p e r i o d c o v e r e d b y e a c h y e a r i s f r o m t h e
t e n t h - d a y o r g a n i z a t i o n t o t h e n e x t t e n t h - d a y o r g a n i z a t i o n o n
t h a t p a r t o f i t .
Q Y o u m e a n t h a t f r o m t h e 1 0 t h d a y o f S e p t e m b e r ,
1 9 6 6 , t o t h e 1 0 t h d a y o f S e p t e m b e r , 1 9 6 7 ? This c o v e r s a n y
c . i v c r ; d u r i n g t h a t 1 2 - m o n t h p e r i o d ?
A Y e s , t h e c h a n g e s i n s t a f f .
0 All r i g h t .
A T h i s i s t h e n u m b e r t h a t w e h a d e f f e c t i v e o n t h e
I
t e n t h d a y a s l i s t e d h e r e o n t h i s o n e r e p o r t .
j
Q W h y d i d y o u b e g i n w i t h 1 9 6 6 r G 7 ?
i
A T h e m a j o r r e a s o n i s o u r s t a f f d e s e g r e g a t i o n
a l t h o u g h i t s t a r t e d i n t h e - - s o m e , t o a l i m i t e d , v e r y l i m i t e d
d e g r e e a n d t w o y e a r s p r e v i o u s t o t h a t — t o t h i s i n ' 6 4 - 6 5 ,
a n d ' 6 5 - 6 6 w a s t h r e e . Y e t , m y d a t a f o r t h e s p e c i a l c e n t e r s
a n d c e n t r a l o f f i c e w a s d i f f i c u l t t o o b t a i n a n d f o r t h e B o a r d ,
s i n c e t h i s w a s p r e p a r e d f o r t h e B o a r d o f E d u c a t i o n , I d i d n ' t
d o g r e a t r e s e a r c h o v e r t h a t , a l t h o u g h t h a t a r e a i s — c o u l d
h a v e b e e n r e s e a r c h e d , d e s e g r e g a t i o n o f t h e c e n t r a l s t a f f a n d
o t h e r t h i n g s f o r a l o n g e r p e r i o d o f t i n e i s o n t h e s c h o o l
s i t u a t i o n .
B u t , m y d a t a , t o a n s w e r y o u r q u e s t i o n , a v a i l a b l e
N i i M A R O S M :•* O f f • M C O t H ' •'» P O H
U N ' T f : b l » T h b n i ' . W R I f T . O U H T
l I i-
data, was for these years I put down w«s available, I guess.
Taylor - Direct 1192
Q All right. In 1966-67, how many faculty members
were involved, how many instructional personnel were involved?
A In the schools, 1006 — I mean, 1,106 in the
schools -- total.
Q I see.
A And I have for the others, I don't have listed
here.
Q All right. Now, what percent of that group were
black?
A That year, 41.0.
Q What percentage white?
A 59.0.
Q Okay. Now, with regard to former Negro staff,
how many white teachers were there teaching in that situation?
A For the year '66-67, that was a team-teaching
year that has previously been mentioned. It was 20 white
crossover teachers and, yes, in the foruer Negro staff. You
asked about the white?
Q All right. Percentagewise, this was what?
A 4.4.
Q All right. Let's shift over to the formerly
white staff, flow many?
A It was 21.
R ' C H A H U b M ' •« O M (. A t C O U R T R t P O R T t H
U N I T E D b T A T E S D I S T R I C T l O O R T
1
i
!)
10
I I
I 1'
1-i
1 i
r>
10
r
i"
r>
>0
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Taylor
Black Negro teachers?
Negro teacher.
How many white teachers?
Six hundred thirty-two.
All right. How, move down to the next year,
Direct 1193
1967-68. What was the number of teachers involved this year,
teachers in this school?
A Same number, 1,106.
Q All right. Now, what was the percentage of blact
in 1967-68 compared with 1966-67?
A 43.7 for the year '67-68; and 41.0 the previous
year, if that was your question.
Q Yes. All right. Now, with regard to former
Negro staff, did the Board de — faculty desegregation policy
when implemented reflect any changes in the number of blacks
whites teaching in formerly all-black schools?
A It made a change.
Q Beg your pardon?
A Yes, sir.
0 What was that change?
A In other words, we were successful in moving from
20 white teachers, former Negro staff, to 45, and frost 21 to
70 Negro teachers in the former white staff.
0 In other words, your volunteer policy was -- under
N I C M A r t L ! S M ' O* f l. A L C O U N T Wt N O R ' : w
U N I T F f S T A T E S * T ) i S ’ R l C T C O l j R ’
your volunteer policy, 49 black teachers transferred to formerly
all-white schools without any arbitrary action, is that right?
A I wouldn't say transferred* The tenth day of
the following year it was 49 additional people there, simply
be new, some would be transferred, same returned from leave
of absence, and other things that would affect people availablle
for assignment.
Q All right. What is the racial composition of
the former white staff after two years of the Board's policy
expressed on a percentage basis?
A In the former Negro staff, the white was 15.6
and the former white staff —
Q (Interposing) Believe, Mr. Taylor, you dropped
down a year.
A All right.
Q Directing your attention to 1967-68.
A '67-68, I am sorry, sir. The white in the former
Negro staff was 9.8 and the Negro in the former white staff,
10.8 — no, yes, 10.8.
C All right. Now, I believe this is the first
year that you indicate these figures with reference to other
than teaching personnel?
A Yes.
Q What was the change in the racial composition of
Taylor - Direct 1194
me. I ' A m o b M i h o f f r u u H i we M O h
I N I T I O b U f t b U l b T R I C T ( O l l R
the instructional personnel in the special centers?
Taylor - Direct 1195
A
Q
A
I don't have the change from ihe previous year.
I beg your pardon.
Faculty of that year, according to our records,
was 9 Negro, 32 white, and for a total of 41 in special centerjs
Q All right. In the central staff?
A Thirty-four Negroes, 83 whites, total of 117.
Q All right. Then, what was tho racial composition
of the staff as a whole?
A The whole, entire professional personnel,
Chattanooga public schools?
Q
A
1,264.
Q
A
Q
Yes.
The grand total, we had 526 kegro, 738 white,
All right. On a percentage basis, what is this?
41.6 Negro and 58.4 white.
All right. Was the Board's policy in filling
vacancies, teachers of the opposite race, continued for the
next year?
A Yes, sir.
g All right. What was the results of those efforts
MR. WILLIAMS: May it pluase the Court, I want
to again register an objection. Now, the very first day on
April 14th, counsel consumed nearly a full day doing this
H i C H A R O S M r H O M i C i A L C O U R T R t W H -
J N I T F O S T A T E b D I S T R ' C T C O i - ' N
Taylor - Direct 1196
reading figures from a document which hcs already been intro
duced in evidence and spending time needlessly.
If counsel wants to argue theue matters to the
Court, he can grasp these figures and crgue them; but it seems,
when tirie is so precious here, that this is a waste of time.
THE COURT: Yes. The Court has these figures
before it with regard to each column. If there's any matter
you wish to illustrate, all right; but do you really think it’s
necessary to take up each figure and just read an exhibit that
is already in evidence?
MR. WITT: Well, Mr. Williams has castigated the
Board for not doing anything about faculty desegregation anti
he has done it to the Court, and it's available to people
other than thi3 Court, and this is an effcrt that the Board
took in good faith without any order of the Court, and it seems
to me that the School Board is entitled for the Court and the
public to know what’s going on.
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, I would
question counsel’s last statement, because at the time most
of this was done, the Sixth Circuit of Appeals had entered
an order on March 23, 1967, holding that we were entitled to
faculty integration.
THE COURT: Irrespective, I think we are getting
a little Lit off the point. We are trying to move matters
H . r i U M U S M I ' H o i f I A L C O U R I P O H 1 , i*
s t a t e s D i s t r i c t c o u r t
along, and let’s don't delay them by arguing. It dooa seem
that you could point out here, take some illustration if you
wish to, but let's don't go through each one of these
figures. They axe before the Court, and they are filed as a
matter of public record. Anybody can see them. The witness
can take illustrative examples and summarize what's happened,
for example, between 1967 and 1971, but —
MR. WITT; (Interposing) May it please the
Court, if I may.
THE COURT. Yes.
MR. WITT: Mr. Williams has just made a statement
in open court that is not correct. !
THE COURT: Well.
MR. WITT; Unless I say something about it, the
people will consider that it is correct. The record is that
the Court of Appeals in 1967 pointed o»it that the Bradley
case had been decided since this Court had rendered its opinion
in this case, and it sent this case back to this Court for a
full evidentiary hearing on faculty desegregation. It did not
order faculty desegregation.
THE COURTi Well, let's move along. I don't think
the argument over that matter could realJy be helpful at this
point.
Taylor - Direct 1197
W l c H A R D b M ' T H O t H L I A L ( O U R f :
U N ' T F U S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R
BY MR. WITT:
Q Mr. Taylor, what was the increase the next year
in the former Negro staff?
Taylor - Direct 1198
A This is *68-69 you had refere tee to?
Q That's right.
A Forty-five to sixty-nine.
Q And then the next year?
A Sixty-nine to seventy-four.
Q Then the next year?
A It remained 74.
Q All right. What does the record with
formerly all-white staff --
A (Interposing) Moved from 70 to 100 from '67 —
at the beginning of '68 year; from '68-69, 100 to 129; '69 to
beginning of '70 year, 144.
Q Was this done voluntarily?
A Yes.
Q Now, Mr. Taylor, 'while the employment and assign
ment of teachers was your responsibility, were you aware of
the Board policy which was introduced during the course of
Mrs. Nardo's testimony?
A Yes, sir, administrative procedure.
Q Have you prepared a summary of your understanding
of that procedure and how it was followed?
A No, sir, I haven't prepared a summary of the
R I C H A R D S M I T H O f F l C ' A l C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
10
n
11
■jo
ji
procedure, but I tried to observe.
q Would you make — did you prepare this?
A Yes; yes, sir. May I have permission to make a
comment* concerning this?
q Would you make this an exhibit to your testimony?
A Yes.
MP.. WILLIAMS: Object to this, because I don't
know exactly what it is, if Your Honor please.
[}{. WITT: We will explain, it to you.
MR. WILLIAMS; I object to it being made an
exhibit before I know what it is.
THE COURT: Allow it to be filed just for
identification purposes at this point until we see what we
are talking about. Exhibit 83.
(Thereupon, the document referred
i to above was marked Exhibit Mo.
83 for identification. Witness Mr.
Taylor *)
B Y M R . W I T T :
q Mr. Taylor, what procedure did you follow?
A As ouEuoari zed on this sheet is the procedure
that was followed in staffing prior to the — to the present
year. In other words, I didn't have anything to do with the
present year's staffing, and it was prior to the— some
parts of it was prior to the effort to desegregate — general
statement, I would be happy to explain what's here.
Taylor - Direct 1199
H U J S M I O F F i c; i -
U N T i l l S T A r F S D r
t o u w i rU'«OH i
i . r c o - w t
<
] Taylor - Direct 1 2 0 0
Q I --
A (Interposing) I say this is a summary statement.
I'd be happy to explain the procedure that identified it.
q I would like for you to explain the procedure
I
jthat you followed, yes, sir.
A On new applicants, the plan that we followed
at that given time was a member of the general administration
staff would interview the person.
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, I will |
withdraw the objection and let it be admitted as an exhibit
as his statement of what his procedure was and ask that it
not be read over by him into the record.
MR. WITT; He is not goinc to read it over.
THE COURT: All right.
(Thereupon, the document previously
marked Exhibit No. 83 for identifi
cation was received in evidence.)
I
THE WITNESS: In other words, three people
entered into the interview process; that is the person on the
general administration staff, person on the central staff
jl
!! that supervised the individual regardless of the division —
ii
if the individual was going to be employed and the administra
tive supervisor, individual that i3 the principal or same
other person who was in charge of the perton after he was
employed at the supervisor level. So three people interviewed
W !» „ M A W ( ) M • O f ' A i I f L M ' I U M O W ' t H
ii
N ' T M > i I A ' ( 1)1 - TMi
Taylor - Direct 1 2 0 1
the new applicant and the three i«eople reached a conclusion,
applicant they thought was the strongest candidate from the
data they had and that was the one that wai submitted cm a
new applicant.
Now, the "C" part of it, the order of assignment,
if we had displaced teachers, during my time, they had the
first assignment. In other words, if some school lost enroll-
!raent and had a teacher there, had to be displaced — that's
what I call a displaced teacher — and then the people, the
people that did the tentative selection assignment, they are
members of the personnel staff, supervisory, again, and
receiving principal and the releasing principal.
In other words, if a school had to lose a
teacher, the releasing principal had a part in the action
there and the receiving principal, as noted here, usually
agreed. Sometimes we had people that didn’t want the people
but person on tenure might be arbitrary to that case, but
in every case possible it was tried to be where all people
who had a part in helping a teacher be a successful teacher
had a part in the placement of the teacher.
Now, teacher requested transfer, was already an
employee, was given second priority if possible. Teacher on
leave of absence and, fourth one, was a newly employed teacher].
|And, the person on leave of absence, sometimes we had to --
'< ! ?M ' O f > » . L O o b •/! I ' l
< N l T f c P ’' I S f B i ' T
Taylor - Direct 1202
sane arbitrary decision and usually agrees on a principal
taking it, because sometimes — but newly employed teachers --
never did employ a new teacher unless the three were in
concurrence about employment.
Q All right. Now, how did >ou deal with the race
of the applicant in this procedure?
A Now, when we tried to go into this desegregated
staff, we certainly were concerned about race, being able to
implement the problem we were attempting to do. And, I think
that's sufficient, unless you want more information.
Q All right. Did you, in the year 1960-67, how
i-iany new teachers did you employ, approximately?
A it would be in this report at some place. Approxi
mately, I’d say, for two-year period — I mean, for ten,
twelve-month period, we usually employed from — range from
125 to 200. It wasn't an extremely large amount compared
with a comparatively large system. I guess we have had a
fairly stable situation that way.
Q Mr. Taylor, I believe I will get you to explain
the rest of the document. It was introduced out of order by
another witness, but would you move to page two of two and
explain what you attempted to do there?
A Two of two is trying to show the crossover
assignments by year from '66 to *70 — '71. As you note in
N ' f b I * I t *5 i
Taylor - Direct. 1203
"K" through 12 school which is in the first column under
"Number of Minority Assignments," 41 in the team teaching —
well, that'3 the 41 started there, and then the next year was
115, ir>9, 203, and 218 was the tenth day o'? this school term.
Then, in special centers and the central office
and the cotal staff and although I said the special centers
and central staff office had been desegregated prior to this j
time, I listed the minority assignment at the place here.
IThe minority was Negro personnel.
IAnd, for the total staff of minority assignments ;
was 273 '67, 158 in '87-68. The others show the change in
assignment per year by “K" through 12 !jx *66-67. It was 38
again. In other words, that year we had 18 and 20. Seventy-
ifour gained the next year. Fifty-four, '68-69. Thirty-four ini
*69-79. And '70-71, 15 was the gain.
Q Would you explain what you mean by minority
assignment?
?\ By minority assignment is a white teacher assigned
in a school that was — majority of the people were black
teachers and a white teacher — I mean a black teacher assigned
in a school where the majority of the teachers there were
white.
Q All right. All right. How, let's move to
staff report No. 2, which is the second part of this report.
What does this attempt to --
Taylor - Direct 1204
A. (Interposing) I’d like to, just a moment, on
page two of two, had the — I didn't finxsh the percent and
the percent in the schools, 19.4 this current year and
percent of total minority was 20.6. In other words, that's
the level we reached at this time.
q This is at the tenth day of September?
A That's right.
Q Tenth day of school, right?
A Now your question, sir.
Q Now, the second part of your report which is
called Staff Report No. 2, please explain what this material
contains.
A This is listing by year or zone — a vertical
listing by attendance centers and on page 1A of 5, the list
of the former Negro staff horizontally, the composition by
Negro or white of the professional staff assigned to that
center for those given years.
•64-65, there was no white personnel assigned
to a former Negro staff. ’65-66, was still not any. In the
year '66-67, was 20.
In ’67-68, 45; 69 in ’68-69. This is a table
for -- was a summary — this is broken down, what schools
they were assigned to.
N ' r t D
I
11
Q All right. Now, is thi3 what is — this is
continued through one page, IB of 5?
A That's the current year, '70-71. And A2, former
white staff it 3hows -- shows the same type of breakdown by
school.
Q Mr. Taylor, let's go back to g>age 1A of 5.
A Yes, sir.
Q I notice Chattanooga Avenue was closed that yea:'.
Chattanooga Avenue a black school at that time?
A Yes, sir.
Q How many teachers were at Chattanooga Avenue
at that time?
A I would have to estimate. I'd estimate 20, 18,
Taylor - Direct 1205
20.
Q Were they -- was their employment continued in
the City school system?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right. Spears Avenue, I noticed, was closed
in 1967, '66-67. Do you know where those — was that an
all-black school at that time?
A Yes, sir.
0 Where were those teachers transferred to? Did
they remain in the system?
A They remained in the system.
l
II
Taylor - Direct 1206
Q
1968-69.
A
Q
All right. I notice the Sanderson was closed in
When it was closed, was it substantially all black?
Yes, sir.
were the teachers in that school retained in tli<>
system?
A Yes, air.
Q I hand yeas a document which has on the first
sheet Clara Carpenter Elementary School closed end of 1962-63
year. Would you make this Exhibit 84? Now, would you state
what this document is?
A This is a listing of the personnel of the school
that was closed beginning, I guess, in *62-63, and showing
the school where transferred to, the effective year.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
84 for identifiertion, Witness Hr.
Taylor, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT:
0 Does it show the race?
A Yes, sir, it shows the race.
Q All right. This covers, xn addition to Clara
Carpenter, would you name the other schools?
A Clara Carpenter and Park Place Junior High School,
Fort Cheatham Elementary, Chattanooga Avenue Elementary,
Spears Avenue Elementary and Louis Sanderson Elementary School.
0 Do you know of any instance which a black teacher
Taylor - Direct 1207
was services were terminated at the times the school was
.
I
closed?
A No, sir, or a white.
Q All right. Mr. Taylor, let's move ahead in the
explanation of your Exhibit No. 70 to page 2A of 5. What is
this?
A That’s a listing of the former white staff by
year and by schools, the composition of the staff by race.
0 Continue through 1970-71 on page 2B.
A Yes, sir.
Q Five, is that correct?
A 2B-5 and goes on through 3A-5. j
Q All right. Any additions1 explanation that you’d
like to make with regard to this?
A Well, it*8 a detailed breakdown of summary given
on the first two pages and shows that ve moved from ’64-65 frô a
two to one hundred twenty-nine minority assignments to the
former white school, 144 on page 3B of 5, 1970-71.
Q All right. Continue to page 4A. Any explanation
due on this page?
A That’s the same type of treatment on the special
centers.
Q
A
Next page just takes you through 1970-71?
Yes, sir. Next one is central staff.
Taylor - Direct 1203
lo
I ! !!
i1 j| lijli
Q All right.
Staff report three is a detailed Bunraary of the
action that took place in the staff daring the time being,
rtaybe go through Howard and make an explanation on that might
suffice.
Q All right, sir.
A Listed on the left is the name of the school and
then staff position assigned has two sub-columns, last year
and this year. And, like, for instance, Howard last year
had 95 Negroes, 18 whites, and 113 staff positions. This year
tiie school lost a position because of projected enrollment.
So, really had a total of 112 positions at Howard on the tenth
day of this year.
Now, the next major column, personnel action,
leaving staff indicated the number that resigned, leave of
absence, so forth, the number that transferred out, the total
number leaving staff. In other words, a total of 18 left,
which is 9 whites and 9 Negroes.
And the next column, position vacancies, indicate
tiie sum of, taking in account of the people who left and the
number of positions added or lost, so 18 left and lost 1
position, made 17 positions to be filled.
And over on the next major column, personnel
action joining staff showed the type of action of the people
. IN, ’ E f 1 - T A T I S . S '
who joined by race, showed 16 joined, 17 vacant; therefore
one vacancy left on the tenth day of school as shown over in
the next staff coluian. And the total &taff assigned, one
vacancy, 94 Negroes, 17 whites, total of 112.
Then over to the next column, comparison of
minority assignments had 18 last year; this year, 17 minus
one. And then on the extreme right is the — I mean is the
race of the principal of the school and the other follows that
same pattern across.
Q Mr. Taylor, that Howard is illustrative of a
failure for whatever reason to increase the number of white
teachers teaching in a formerly all-black school when there
were 17 vacancies or 17 possibilities, do you have an explana-j
tion for thi3?
A I don't on this data here, but frc*a previous
e:.p«ri^nce it's — it is difficult to find.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I object.
BY MR. WITT:
Q If you don't have —
A (Interposing) This data, I do not implement
this data on this page.
Q I am sorry. I had forgotten. This is the
material that was covered by Dr. Heustess yesterday.
A Yes. Should reflect what he said. I mean, if he
Taylor - Direct 1209
N T H
i
Taylor - Direct 1 2 1 0
mentioned information, people leaving, I see 41 left.
0 *11 right. Do you sec any necessary explanation
with regard to that page?
A Well, summary at the bottom of the page shows
in reality what happened. You see 74 in the sum of minority
assignments for the previous year. And, we — leaving the
staff was 41 for various reasons as indicated. In other word3 ,
of 74, 41 left which — and, added back. 41, made a total agaia
of zero, but actually had 41 people of the minority assignment
in those schools.
So, considerable amount of work done in toe
personnel department to hold their own, I guess, that's —
1 am trying to 3ay that.i
Q You are referring to what column?
A I am referring to the total on page 1 of 7, I
j guess, 1 of 7, where it says 352 Negro teachers, 74 white
teachers, 426.
Q Yes.
A That's — that was the staff, tenth day of the
j
previous year.
I
Now, the action leading from that day to this
tenth day of this year was a total of 56 Negro, 41 white, and
that total, 97 — the bottom. So, of the 74, 41 left is what
I am saying, and then over to the joining staff, a total of
o u > -
Taylor - Direct 1 2 1 1
47 Negroes joined the staff and 41 whiles, so 41 whites left,
41 whites joined, and the total stayed 74 — 74 both years.
The next pages are the other schools that sum
total is page 3 of 7 is the total of that group. One hundred
twenty-nine, five hundred seventy whites, rix hundred ninety-
nine. Of the 129, 32 left; and of the 570, 104 — 136.
Now, page 4 of 7 is sum total of both of them.
Q All right. And, the totals, then, how nany left
i the staff?
A Two hundred thirty-three in through 12.
This is "K “ through 12 assignment here. In other words, in
the 12-month period, 233 this given yetx, 145 white, 88 black
left.
Q Then, what joined -- how many joined the staff?
1 A Joined the staff was 94 black, 137 white — 231.I
ij Q Ninety-four black joined the 3taff and eighty-
eight black left, is that right?
A Yes, 88 black left.
Q One hundred forty-five white as against one
hundred thirty-seven white?
A one thirty-seven white.
Q All right. What was the net gain or loss?
A Net gain was plus 15.
Q How many teachers were employed to secure a gain
N ' • . o T A T l O i
Taylor - Direct 1 2 1 2
of 15?
A Another table would show that part of it. w©
gained —~ we employed — system employed new employees of 110.
THE COURT: Well, it's 161, iwx't it?
THE WITNESS: Yes. I didn't add it correctly,
161.
BY MR. WITT
Q All right. Now, what is the next? Any explanutibn
due on the next page?
A That's the same treatment of rhe special centers
with the sum total and then page 6 is the central staff. And,
i
7 of 7 is a summary of all professional staff. All of it had j
a net gain of 20 — you see over in the total, grand total?
Q All right. Give us the grand totals on the
number — number leaving the staff, 230?
A Two eighty leaving the staff; and joining the
staff, 292.
Q Then the Board policy was implemented to what
extent, then, on crossovers?
A I can't tell the degree.
Q I mean, in numbers.
A Numbers?
0 Numbers.
A Numbers, plus 20. Now, the next section of —
' / I t f
: 0
i I
for that was covered yesterday in detail, to my knowledge.
Q fhis is correct, and that's the names to support
what's on the other one.
All right. Now, did you prepare a similar report
for the previous year?
A Yes, sir, staff report five and this is the one we
Taylor - Direct 3 ^ 3 3
haven't covered.
Q Beg your pardon.
A Staff report five in this one.
Q Oh, I had forgotten that. All right. What is this?
A This is analysis of professional staff minority
assignments to schools, 1966-67 through 1969-70. It really goes
Jt
to what was assigned this fall but doesn't have action on what
happened to those until the end of this next September, the
reason it looks like it ctc.ps at •69-70., Ann, it shows the
number of people leaving.
h || 0 All right. Now, where is this?
A It's on page one of one, staff report five.
Q What column?
A in the first column, the staff assignment, tenth
day, 433. This is former Negro staff, 433; 20 white. And
number that left, the former Negro staff was 77 Negro, 13 white;
percentage leaving was 17.8 Negro, 65. C white, and we added to
the staff 38 white, and we've had a net gain of 25.
S M i I H ( i f f C i A L C O U H 1 R E P O N T k h
U N I T ( O S t a t e s D I S T R I C T C O U N T
Taylor - Direct 1214
We had 20, lost 13, added 38, ended up with net
gain of 25 or the 20 to make 45 for the Mxt year starting.
Q All right. The next column?
A The next column shows that in action the next year
we lost 28 of the 45 in '68-69, lost 50 of che 69. In *69-70,
we lost 41 of the 74. And, frost the '66-67 through sixty —
*70-71, net gain of 54 in the forswr Negro staff.
Q All right. How nany do you indicate, how many were
employed during that period of time?
A Dunng those four years frca th« base of 20, we
employed of the whites to go in — that's 132. I think you
have 122. Supposed to be 132 -- 132 was employed —
Q (Inter*.- sing) Hr. Taylor, you have lost me.
A No, the number that left the staff is 132 and
86 re-employed, and net gain of 54.
Q Where is that?
A On the 4-year period.
0 Where is that on this page?
A That's in the first major column, schools, former
Negro staff, the right column of that major column at the
bottom, middle of the page.
THE COURT: bast line of what column?
BY MR. KITT:
Q Doe3 this mean you employed 186 during that period
**•< H A R O S M - T M ( >» * •< ' A l c < ) I N I R f M O M l t W
m n i t f o s t a i f s d i s t r i c t c o u r t
ami had a net gain of 54, ia that correct?
A Yes.
G All right. Now, let's look, at the schools of
former white staff.
A We employed 221 for a net gain of 123.
Q All right. Let's look at that year by year.
MR. WILLIAMS: I object, if Your Sonor please,
because it's —
Taylor - Direct j
THE COURT: (Interposing) It's listed year by
year, yes. The Court can look at those fig'ires very quickly;
unless there is some special reason for taking out an illuatrioui
year.
BY MR. WITT:
Q What is the next column?
A The next one is just a percentage of the total
staff, not a crossover situation, total staff in the 12-nonth
period that left, staff by raoe. Then on the extreme right is
the total staff. In other words, we lont in the total staff,
18.4 in '66-67; 20.6 in '67-68; and 23.5 in »69-7Q; and 20.7,
•69-70. in other words, we are losing about 20 percent of our
people — turnover each year of our total staff, what I as
trying to say, that's assigned to schools.
Q How would that compare with previous years?
A I think it's higher. It's )S starting with the
R I C H A R D S M > T h O F H f i A l C O U R T R » - * » O R T f R
U N I T t D S U I T S O I S T R i C T C O U R T
1216- Taylor - Direct
first one. We have had some years that vas better than that.
Several things cone into bearing on this type of
1 | thing. Have a better retirement plan that helps people retire,
but --
Q (Interposing) Hr. Taylor, during 1966-67, did you
make an effort to assign — to employ and assign teachers in
accordance with the regulation that was discueed during Mrs.
Nardo's testimony that was adopted that was presented to the
10
11
12
n
11
in
I 7
18
School Board on May the 10th of 1967?
A Yes, sir, I tried to follow that Board's directive.
Q During the next year, 1967-63, did you attempt to
carry out the directive in the same mannar?
A That's correct.
Q In 1968-69, did you attempt to carry it out, the
directive, to the best of your ability?
A That's correct.
MR. WITT: No further questions.
m 1
J O B Y M R , W I L L I A M S :
C R O S S E X A M I N A T I O N
ji q Mr. Taylor, the teacher desegregation ^ffected by
the Board, such amount of it as has been effected, has not been
entirely voluntary, has it, in light of the Sixth Circuit
24 decision in 1967?
2r> a I am not familiar with the Sixth Circuit decision,
Ml ) H A R O ' M i ’ H o * - M C I A l C O U R I R f c P O H f k W
U N I T i O S T A T F S D I S T R I C T C O U N I
Taylor - Cross 1217
-ir .
A You have any idea why the Board didn't nova, then,
prior to 1965?
A No.
Q All right. In any event, you have to concede that
the Board did not assign any teachers „i- cially to faculties
until after we filed a notion for further relief in 1965, did
they?
A In other words, 1964-65 was the first crossover
teacher assigned and if your dates fit nith that.
Q Well, '64-65 was simply -- that was simply the
school year, wasn't it? And wasn't that simply a special
project at Avondale School in the spring of 1965?
A Yes.
0 Two teachers involved, weren't there?
A Two that year, three the next.
Q Yes. All right, air. Now, prior to desegregation,
if a black teacher asked to be assigned to a white school, you
would have denied that request, wouldn't you?
A That was the policy I was to follow.
Q All right, sir. So that if — and, your experience
has been with voluntary teacher desegregation that you have
had great -- some difficulty in getting the white teachers to
agree to go to the black scitools, haven't you?
H l f H A N D ‘j M - ' H O f u r . A l C O U R T W f e P O R T k R
U N I T f O f T A U S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Taylor - Cross 1218
A We have had some difficulty with all of it.
Q And, this has been related ce the unwillingness of
teachers to cross racial lines?
A Partly that and partly like to go to a certain
section of town, several things involved in it, 1 guess.
! Q Now, then, if the unwillingness of teachers were
allowed to control, would you not agree it would be difficult,
if not impossible to integrate faculties in the same ratio oi
black to white teachers in each school that you have in the
system?
A Sir, you are a little fast for ne. If you could
get the first —
Q (Interposing) If you were to allow the unwilling
ness of teachers to control, if that were the controlling
factor, would you agree that it would be difficult if not
impossible to mix the teachers in each school appr< otimate’.y
40-60 the way they are in the total population?
A It would be difficult. As I said, all of this is
difficult. Assigning teachers is difficult, but our plan
reaction, I think, we broke down in here and I am no longer
connected with it.
Q What 1 am saying is, though, what I am asking you
is this, Mr. Taylor: In order -- if the Court were to adopt
the objective that — or the Board were to adopt the objective
W M A R ' J S M M V f U t l A L C O U N T H t P O H T t H
u N i h O S T * I F S D I S T R I C T C. • H I N T
Taylor - Cross 1219
that teachers should be assigned in each school according to
the approximate racial ratio, that of the students in that
school or of the teachers in the system, than you would have to
make some arbitrary assignments, wouldn't you?
A According to the time limit given on it, I am
convinced this method would work, but —
Q (Interposing) Well, of course, this method has
been in effect now for how many years?
A Well, it was — got its major start in *67-68.
Q All right. So that’s been -- it’s been in effect,
then, four years, including the present current year, is that
corroct?
A That is correct.
Q And, we now, as a matter of fact, have 12 percent
of the white teachers assigned across racial lines and 29
« *
percent of the black teachers assigned across racial lines,
approximately, don’t we?
A That figure that you gave me.
0 Look at page 30 — look at staff report number
five and Exhibit 70.
A Is this 70 I got this big thing? Yeah.
Q No. I mean what — I'm sorry — look at staff
report number two and look at page 3B of 5.
I
»
I
6
o
')
10
I 1
12
l i
! 1-
1 . 1
I(.
i:
IH
19
20
21
>•>
21!
21
2r>
Taylor - Cross 1 2 2 0
q That doesn't — that doesn’t relate —
A (Interposing) Maybe I can help you if you ask
Q (Interposing) Look at page 3B 5 and look down
at the bottom at your figures relating to schools formerly
Negro staffed. You have 343 blacks and 74 whites, haven't you,
total of 4177 I
A Pour hundred seventeen. j
Q So that you have approximately !l2 percent of the
white teachers assigned across racial lines, don't you? how
many while teachers do you have — look at page 3a of 5.
Does that tell you what you are — 1
A (Interposing) I got the percantag# — percent of
white teachers assigned is 20.4, and percent — I mean, percent
of black teachers assigned to white schools, is 20.4.
Q Yes, sir. And, the —
A (Interposing) Percent of
Q (Interposing) What is the percentage of white
teachers assigned to black schools?
A White teachers was 17.7.
Q Seventeen?
A Black — white teachers assigned to black schools.
Q What is your total number of white teachers in
the system, 8ir?
A Total number of white teachers, five hundred and --
W H A R O S M I T H O F F l ( , A L C O U R T R fr P O R T fc H
U N i T t o s ’ a t f s d i s t r i c t c o o ^ t
•I
Taylor - Cross
776.
1221
THE COURTI Page 3B of 5 it would show 706.
THE WITNESS; I — the total tihite staff —
12
i \
You have total white
2:$
BY MR. WILLIAMS;
Q (Inter} ■ sing) Page 1 of 2.
staff, 776?
A That's correct.
Q All right. I was giving you too much.
And, going back to page 3b of 5, you have —
A (Interposing) These are people assigned to --
Q (Interposing) You have 74 vhite staff assigned
to schools that were formerly Negro, ha-/.--, t you?
A "K" through 12, that's correct, 74.
Q You have less than 10 percent of white teachers
assigned to formerly Negro schools, don't you? Isn't that
tru'- sir?
A If you have dene the calculation.
Q Seventy-four is obviously lass than 10 percent
of 770?
A These are central staff. You have only the ones
you have got the ones assigned in school against total staff.
It's a little — not a true comparison on that part.
Now, the total staff in schools was 636 white —
636.
Hi C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O u f i ’ H t P O R T E R
U N I T E D s t a t e s O I S T R I C T C O U R T
Taylor - Cross 1222
Q Do you have 636 white teacherr in the system?
A Assigned to the “JC" through 12 schools, yes, sir.
Q All right. And, you have 74 assigned to black
schools, don't you?
A That's correct.
Q All right. Isn’t 74, 12 per sent of 1.36?
A I would take your figure.
G Yes. And, you have 487 black teachers in the
sy3tesa, don't you?
A 487.
Q And, you have 144 assigned to white schools?
A 144, yes.
Q And isn't that 29 percent? Isn't 144, 29 percent
of 487?
A That's approximately that.
Q Yes. So that at present you ar«t nowhere near the
distribution even with the ratio of black teachers to white
teachers in the school system, are you, in terms of your
teacher assignments across racial lines?
A I'd say we are about half there.
0 About half?
A Yes.
Q... Well, what is — isn't the ratio black to white
teachers 4 3 — 43 percent to 57 percent?
R I C H A R D S M ' I H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
tt
I
; !
u
IK
A Yes, 43.4 to 56.
Q All right, sir. So that If you had that approxi
mate ratio in each school, each school would have 47 percent
Negroes -- 47 percent blacks and 57 percent whites, wouldn't
they?
A Forty-three?
Q Forty-three percent black and fifty-seven —
A (Interposing) That's right.
Q So, in the formerly white schools with only 12
percent, with 29 percent blade, you are abont 14 percent away
front it in terms of the black teachers that need assigning
there, that's correct, isn't it, if you have 29?
A If you have 29, is correct.
Q And, in the formerly black schools you are a long
way away from it, aren't you, where you need 57 percent white
and you only have 12 percent? You are some 45 percent away
from it, aren’t you?
A But the percent of the staff -- well, percentage,
I am not going to argue that point of it. This is the way,
but --
0 (Interposing) All right, sir. Now, let's turn
to your analysis that you made, just briefly — and won't be
too much longer with this -- page one and two where you were
pointing out to the Court — - before I get to that, when you
R M A R L ) S M *M O f M < A l C l l R l R I - R l . R T f c R
Taylor - Cross 1223
U N I T f O S T A t t S U l S T R i r * C O U W T
I '
I I
IS
l < )
IT
18
l‘>
20
24
24
consider that that is all the progress that you have made
since 1965 when you first began, it would take a long time
by the method that you have been using, assuming that your
a
theory that it’s a good method is correct, before you got to
the percentage that I was talking about, wouldn’t —
A (Interposing) That is correct, yes, we proceeded
in the last two years.
q Isn’t it true that in every staff report that Mrs.
Nardo put in it was pointed out that there was some retrogression,
!
that you were continually trying to catch up in terms of white j
i
teachers who had been crossovers and dicin’t like it and you were
having to find s o m e more to replace tnem.
A It’s been some problems as I stated this.
q Take a look at page 1 of 2 and let’s look at these
beautiful percentages that you were giving ua here.
You were pointing out that ir. ’68-69 in the top
schools relating to former Negro schools — former aiegro staff
over on the left, you were pointing out that in ’68-69 there
were 15.6 percent whites in black schools; in *69-70, 17.4;
and in ,^0-71, 17.7, right?
A I thought I was on the right page. I aw on page
1 of 2 of one report.
q One of two, the very first staff report, staff
report number one; first page of staff report number one,
Taylor - Cross 1224
W H A R D S M I ' H O F F I C I A L C O U R T H t P O R T l K
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
I
12
12
i V
A
Q
A
0
If)
20
21
’2
22
2 2
left-hand — in the left-hand double column relating to former
Negro staff?
A Yes, sir.
Q In '68-69, your percentage of blacks — of whites
in formerly black schools was 15.6, wasn't it?
A Yeah, 15.6.
Q And in *c, 70, it was 17.4 or an increase of 2.2
percent?
That's right.
In the four years?
Yeah.
And, in 1970-71, it was 17.7, or an increase of
three-tenths of one percent in a full year?
A That's correct.
Q So that the method of voluntary assignment of
teachers seems to be retrogressing rather than proceeding in
its effectiveness, doesn't it, Mr. Taylor; at least insofar
as the aiisigr^’cnt of white teachers to black schools is concerne4?
A The results for the last two years have certainly
haven't been favorable to the method, I will agree with that.
Q Most of the progress that has been made in the four
years that you have had was of black teachers moving into white
schools rather than white teachers moving into black schools,
wasn't it?
Taylor - Cross 1225
R t ( H A R O b M l T H O f H i > A L C O U R T W f P O R T I H
U N I T k O f A T F S O I S T W t C T C O U R T
i I
! 5
1 l
JO
21
A That is — I would say that is true, too.
Q And would you not agree, Mr. Taylor, that most of
the resistance to integration has been on tie part of white
rather than blacks?
A Not 100 percent.
Q Most of it has been?
A l wouldn't say that. Initial stages it was
difficult both ways, and — well, what does this —
MR. WITT: (Interposing) May if-, please tiu Court,
would he please let the witness answer the question?
THE COURTj Let him please answer.
MR. WILLIAMS: I thought he had answered. You had
something more to say, sir?
THE WITNESS: I will try to ansiier your question.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q All right, sir. Based on the figures that we have
just cited and your experience in regard to teachers in the
Chattanooga school system, would you say that most of the
resistance to integration has been on the part of whites rather
than blacks?
A I cannot say that most of it's been that way.
Q Can you say that as a — that most of it tends to
be on tbio part of whites rather than bl?cks?
A Many white people are anxious to help with the
Taylor - Cross 1226
H U H A HO C O t J M I H t H O H 1 k
U N i T t n S T A T F S DI S T HI C T C O U H
situation.
Q Well, 1 am talking about mostly —
MR. WITT3 (Interposing} May it please the Court,
this is twice in 30 seconds that ha won't let Mr. Taylor answer
the question.
THE COURT: All right.
M R . WILLIAMS: I will let hi* answer it.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q All right, sir.
A Am I supposed to talk now?
Q I think your lawyer wanted you to have some more
answer to that question. Can you think of -my more answers,
Mister —
A (Interposing) I still stay with the same answers
both ways.
Q Well, all right. Well, just abandon that line of
inquiry and ask you one more question. Sir, directing your
attention, again, to -;taff reports — staff report number two
and the page SB of 5, staff report number two relating to
administratpve assignments.
A Yes.
Q It appears that only approximately 20 percent of
your administrative supervisor resource teachers level staff
excluding itinerant teachers is black, would you agree on that?
Taylor - Cross ■*■**'
H i 1 H A R O S M I T H O f H L l * L C O U R T R f P O R T k R
U N I ’ F d S T A F F S O I 5 T R . C T C O i J <T
I
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l
6
8
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I I
12
IS
I s
I")
16
r
18
16
20
21
22
2:s
24
28
Taylor - Cross 1 2 2 u
A I'd say yes.
Q So that whila it looks pretty good, if you include
the itinerant teachers, if you exclude then, you are pretty
much below the pupil population ratio of 4S to black — 49 perce
black to 51 percent white in the racial complexion of your
central staff, aren't you?
A I would agree with you.
Q Yes. As a matter of fact, you have only one
individual employed on the level of superintendent or assistant,
do you not?
A Assistant — has one. the system has one.
Q The system has only one? Yes. And you have only
nine out of forty-two, out of a total of forty—two supervisory
positions — let me rephrase that. Out of a total of 42
administrative and supervisory positions, you have only 9
blacks?
A
Q
A
Q
teachers,
A
Q
A
Night be 13. Have more vacancies, can't answer —
(Interposing) All right, sir. At least, as —
(Interposing) Tenth nay.
Compilation of this data and total of five resource
they are all white? .
That's right.
According to this data?
Let me go back to the data.
M A H O S M U H O F H . ' A l C O U N T H f c P u H T t MR
U N I T E D S T A T E S O l S T R . C l i W ’
Taylor - Cross 1229
Q How do you explain the lack of black personnel on
the policy making level — policy making and supervisory
level?
A I want to poii-.t out one thing where we have
vacancies included in the total, in other words, nine plus
twenty-nine equals forty-two for vacancies included in the
forty-two; but vacancies — race is undetermined at times,
so in stating the data —
I
0 (Interposing) You are right, sir. It's 36 out
of the total of 36 that were known to lave been employed at
this time, only 9 were black?
A Now, as to your other question —
Q (Interposing) Total of 38?
A As to the other question, I cannot answer your
question. I don't have the information to answer it.
The central staff — the superintendent who
previously selected — the central staff people selecting the - -
principals or the superintendent's no longer with us, so —
Q (Interposing) Well, in any event, the school
system has not voluntarily equalized the racial composition
of its central staff?
A I would say that's true.
Q Mr. Taylor, in conceding as you have that 29 —
that only 29 percent of your black teachers have been assigned
Hi . H A R O S M . T H O F H ^ i A i C O U R T H t M O R T f k
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Taylor - Cross 1230
to white schools and only 12 percent of your white teachers
have been assigned to black schools, if 100 percent integration
were to be ac omplished at a 43 to 57 percent black-white
balance, you are approximately SO percent of the distance
away from integration in the white schools, aren't you?
A If we are 29.
Q In the white schools, you are 50 percent away,
approximately?
A Mow —
Q (Interposing) With 29 percent of the black teachers
I
moving to the white schools?
A Now, you are making — let me get your rationale,
then I can make maybe a fairly intelligent answer. For every
school to have 66 percent white and 40 percent black of every
school?
Q 57 percent white and 43 percent black.
A Yes, I agree with your statement.
Q And, with that as — if 100 percent integration
were to be accomplished at that balance, then you are 68
percent of the way of the distance away from integration in
black schools, aren't you, assuming we adopt that as an
integration objective, 43 to 57 percent in each school since
you tiave only 12 percent of the white teachers in the black
schools?
HI r M A U D S M ” H O M |( . |AI C O H H 1
U N I T f c U b T A T X S D I S T W " I C O l ' M >
A Twelve percent is right, and we need 40 percent,
then, 12 and 40 is 28. I will agree to tluit kind of mathe
matics.
|
Q Is you should have 57 percent of whites in those
formerly black schools and you have only 12 percent, you are
approximately 30 percent away from that concept of integration?
A If that’s 56 — if it’s 57.
Q Sir?
A Yes, I go with your figure, if that's the right
figure.
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Taylor - Cross 1231
BY MR. WITT:
Q Mr. Taylor, assuming an obligation to establish
a ratio — racial ratio in the faculty of each school at
approximately the same as the ratio of black to white teachers
in the system, this would produce in each school <* 57 percent,
43 percent bailee, is that tho way you trtderstaad?
A That was the way 1 thought the rationale was.
Q All right. Now, if you take the standard as the
proportion of the students, then this would be closer to
50-50, would it not?
A Yes, I testified to that affect, approximately
50 percent of each race in the system.
WU H A R O S M T H O I > i A ! f ' O l / K ! R t ^ O R T f c H
U N I T E D *iT A ! F S D I S T R I C T c o u r t
Taylor - Redirect 1232
Q The record shows, does it not — does the record
show the percentage movement in five years under the voluntary
basis, what was that, from zero to what?
A
staff.
Now, this is staff, zero to 17.4 former Negro
Q This was accomplished on a voluntary basis?
A Yes.
Q In five years? All right. Now, applying Mr.
Williams ' percentages and numbers, how many additional
teachers would you have to transfer to Howard to achieve this
so-called racial balance using your figures for 1970-71?
A Howard, 111 staff members.
Q
would be
Well, let's use 50-50 for easy computation. That
A (Interposing) Fifty-fifty, then, you'd have to —
half of a hundred and eleven is fifty-five and a half, you
got seventeen, so about thirty-eight.
Q Transfer 38 whites to Howard?
A Yes.
Q And that also means you'd have to take 38 blacks
away from Howard, doesn't it?
A Got 94, supposed to have 55, so —
Q (Interposing) All right. Uhat would that require
at Riverside?
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O U T t M
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
I
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1)
10
I 1
12
n
i x
IT,
If,
17
18
1 9
20
21
22
23
2 4
2 5
Taylor - Redirect 1213
A Thirty-nine.
Q Sir?
A What was — I said approximately 39 — 38. So,
be in the same number.
Q All right. How, what would it take at Riverside?
A Riverside had 59 cm the tenth day and that's 30
and they have got 9, so it would be 21 whites to transfer in.
q All right. Also means you'd have to transfer 21
blacks out?
A Twenty-one blacks out.
Q What about Alton Park?
A Alton Park —
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) May it please the
Court, I will stipulate that in every instance in order to get
that ratio we'd have to do some mathematical computations
and trails: some blacks in and some whites out.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WITT: Mr. Williams, nay it please the Court,
Mr. Williams is the individual who har, been saying this is
a simple process.
MR. WILLIAMS: I still say that, if Tour donor
please. It's just a mathematical process.
MR. WITT: It's just a mathematical -- they are
not people, they are numbers. I have no further questions,
R' < H A R D S M l ’ H O f K i t l A L C O H H I
U N I T t O S T A T F S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Taylor - Recross 1234
Mr. Taylor.
THE COURT: All right.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q Mr. Taylor, you were — were you made aware of
the decision of the Sixth Circuit Courc of Appeals to the
effect in 1967 or ’68 in the Jackson, Tennessee, school case
to the effect that voluntary freedom of choice assignment of
teachers is not constitutionally permissible?
A No, sir, I wasn't.
q Did your lawyer make you auare of that?
A I was not aware of that.
Q All right. You are aware that based on your
voluntary freedom of choice method, it would take another 25
years to achieve that ratio of 43 to 57 percent, are you not?
A No, sir, I am not aware of that.
Q If you progressed at that rate, you are not aware
of that? It’s taken you five years to get to 17 percent?
A Well, I am not aware it would take that long to
get the other job done.
Q You think it would speed up despite the fact that
your exhibit shows that you are retrogressing in your ability
to i 1 white t e a o i i c x . - , u . i to go to Llack schools? Is
that true?
R l C H A R O S M I T H O f H C i A L C O U N T R f P O H T U l
U N I T I D S T A I F S D I S T R I C T C O U H
Taylor Recross 1235
A That's true.
MR. WILLIAMS: I see.
THE COURT: Anything further?
MR. WITT: Ho.
(Witness excused.)
THE COURT: Let's take a 10-minute recess.
(Thereupon, a recess was taken.)
MR. WITT: May it please the Court, before we start
this witness, when Mr. McCullough was on the stand, Mr. Williams
asked for some material indicating the students currently
being transported free — to areas by race. This material is
available and I have handed Mr. Williams a copy and I think it
would be appropriate to introduce this us Exhibit 80.
THE COURT: Eighty-five be the next exhibit in
order.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
85 for identification and received
in eviO nee.)
MR. WITT: In addition, there *as some information
requested with regard to applications on file as of May the
12th, 1971, for teaching positions by fields, by race, by
• :
indicating either a professional certification or a temporary
certification, and this would be the next exhibit in order.
Believe this was as a result — this is Ho. 86, I believe.
N . T F D b ' M f s D I S T R I C T C O U R '
1236
iO
: i
This was with Mr. Jamas' testimony.
THE COURT: Exhibit Bo. 86
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
86 far identification received
in evidence.)
DEAM HOLDEN,
called as a witness at the instance of the defendants, being
first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITT:
2
;!
i<>
2:1
2 1
Q
A
0
A
Q
A
Would you plaa.a state your name, sir?
I am Dean Holden.
By whom are you employed?
Chattanooga public schools.
Would you please state your educational background?
I*o a graduate, BS degree from East Tennessee
State College in 1950, and master, FS degree in educational
administration from the University of Tennessee in 1956.
Q When did you become employed by the Chattanooga
school system?
A 1966, June 13.
Q What was your assigned reponsibility?
A h tit la? My job?
Q Title first and then —
Ul' H A H U !i M . I H 0 > H C l A I C OUNT I N M ' I H l t H
U N I T f n S T A T E S D I S T H T O O I J W T
H)
1\
2 t
A {Interposing) I came as director of general
administrative services. This was the area of general
administration. It entailed a lot of activity which at that
time it was felt should be centered in one office and relieve
other divisions of some routine types of things.
In relation to areas of work, T. think the relevant
here were in the areas of administrating the pupil transfer
P°liclea/ working with the staff in reviewing zones, in research
ing and finding data upon which cooperative decisions were
made on recommendations as to changes in school aones.
Worked in the area of statistical analysis. Worked
with projection of students for coming years. Coordinated the
completion of a great number of reports and forms.
Q The administration of pupil transfers in 1966
were under your supervision?
A In 1966-67, yes, sir.
Q And the following year?
A Each year since that time.
Q All right, sir. Would you please identify tnis?
A Paper I have here ta a r<3.,Iile,t laim ^ ic h p„ ents
are asked to initiate if they have a desire, a wish, a reason
for their child to, if they'd like to, have a transfer out
of zone, transfer request considered.
Q Would you make — pardon me. Would you make this
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F H C i A L C O U R T fe H
I
Holden - Direct 1237
N I T T O S ' A T F S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Holden - Direct 1238
an exhibit to your testimony?
A Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Eighty-seven.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was Marked Exhibit Mo.
87 for identification, Witness Mr.
Holden, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT:
^ All right. Is this the fora that's currently in
use?
A This is the fora that's currently in use as noted
in the lower right-hand comer as revised in July of 1970.
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, at this
time I should like to make an inquiry. I have had several
witnesses here that I have been waiting nearly a full —
waiting a full week, and I have one witness who can't get
back, and we were trying to get him on this afternoon and
counsel has just been taking his time and delaying this thing.
THE COURT: Well, how about receiving a witness
out of order? Any reason why you would not be agreeable to
that?
MR. WITT: It's all right with us. We have
attempted to cooperate along an the time.
THE COURT: As I understand, this gentleman, you
are from Chattanooga?
tide; WITNESS: Right, yes, sir.
H i f M A H O S M ' H O t M C i A L C O U R 1 N t P Q W ’ k W
U N I T E D S P A T E S D i b T R i C i )«, K
Ravin - Direct 1239
THE COURT: Would be available? Say you have a
witness from out of town you’d like to use?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir, I would. He has — he
cannot comb back, as I understand, that is correct, is it not?
And —
THE COURT: (Interposing) All right.
(Witness temporarily excused.)
YALE RAVIN,
called as a witness at the instance of the plaintiff, being
first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMIHATTOW
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q Mr. Yale Ravin?
A (No response.)
0 Mr. Ravin, you will respond when I ask you a
question?
A I am sorry.
0 You are Mr. Yale Ravin?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q And, where do you live, sir?
A Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
THE COURT: (Spelling) R-i-v-i-n?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
MR. WILLIAMS: And Yale as in Yale University,
Your Honor.
B C H A R D S M ' T H O F F I C I A L C O U N T H fc M<> H I L H
U N I ’ f D S T A T E S O ' S T R i C T C O l l H T
Ravin - Direct 1240
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q And what is your occupation?
A I am an urban planning consultant.
Q State your educational and professional background,
please.
'0
A Yes. 1 — well, I was educated as a teacher,
initially, and stuied also at Rutgers University. Graduated
from Temple in 1952, bachelor of fine arts in '59; '53,
received a bachelor of science in education; returned to
school, to graduate school, in 1957 to study architecture and
city planning.
! i
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18
19
20
And, received a graduate degree from the University
of Pennsylvania in 1960. I have worked as a city planner —
worked initially for the City of Camden, New Jersey, where I
was their senior planner and went from there to London where
I was a planning officer in England with the London County
Council.
And, I taught in the graduate school of town
planning at the Polytechnic in London.
Returned to the United States in the fall of 1963
and joined the staff of the University of Pennsylvania and
was there as principal planner until 1967 when I left to go
into practice.
My practice is fairly well restricted to work
u N i T f c D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Ravin - Direct 1241
involving the impact of public program* on low-income and
minority groups. 1 have been a consultart -- I am a consultant
to the United States Commission on Civil Rights. I have been
a consultant to the Department of Housing ind Urban Development
I have worked on the preparation of regulations for the develop
ment of transportation. I have lectured in planning at
various schools and universities both in the country and in
England.
Q All right. Mr. Ravin, have yov prepared or do
you have and have you furnished me with a resume which sets
forth in somewhat greater detail your professional experience
including publications, papers, lectures, et cetera?
A Yes, I have.
MR. WILLIAMS: Would like to 1 it rr icq that as the
next exhibit, if I may.
THE COURT: Exhibit 88.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
88 for identification. Witness Mr.
Ravin, and received in evidence.)
BY HR. WILLIAMS:
Q Mr. Ravin, have you, at my reguest, examined
t i
certain matters related to the racial residential patterns
in the City of Chattanooga?
A Yes, I have.
Q State exactly what you have done.
Mi l M * H U ^ M > I H O M i i AI C O ' i H l H h P Q H U t *
u N U f C ) S T A T F S D l S T R i f * C O U R T
Bavin - Direct. 1242
Census, data on population of the City of Chattanooga f o r
1960 and for 1970.
Q All right.
A I have prepared a table which compares the popula
tion of the city by census tract and by race, by both, and
by households for the two years, for I960 and 1970.
I have in addition prepared a map which illustrates
the current racial distribution of the city by enumeration
districts, that is, those are districts smaller than a census j
tract, the number of enumeration districts within a tract.
may vary from one or two to as many as seven or eight; so that j
the map itself shows a more detailed breakdown of the current
racial distribution than the table which is by census tract
alone.
Q All right.
MR. WITT; May it please the Court, I assume that
the relevance of this will develop in time.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, I will state to the Court that
if it please the Court, that Mr. Ravin further on in hxs
.i:..ony will give some testimony which will indicate to the
Court to sotiq extent its relevance and that then we intend
to use the document prepared by Mr. Ravin in connection with
the testimony of other witnesses.
A Well, first I have obtained from the United States
Ri H A R D S M I T H O f f l C l A l C O u R i Wf M O R I k R
U N I T E D S T A 1 I S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Ravin - Direct 1243
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WITT: You have something — if you could
give the nature of its relevance, it might be helpful.
THE COURT: He has mentioned the fact that he has
prepared pot lation distribution maps and I assume that those
may be relevant either within his testimony or to some other
witness• testimony.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.
MR. WITT: I don't see the connection, but I guess
THE COURT: (Interposing) Weil, we prepared
pupil distribution maps, and I suppose that racial distribu
tion maps based on census might also be relevant the same as
pupil maps.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q Mr. Ravin, have you brought wi th you the census
data which you used in the preparation of those other documents
A Yes, I have.
0 Perhaps we ought to introduce that, if Your Honor
?
please.
THE COURT: Do you need to introduce — you need
to introduce the docur^ . t or can you ^ust extrapolate Llie
part that you consider relevant?
MR. WILLIAMS: We don't have to introduce it, if
Your Honor please. He has — we simply want — don't want
N' H A N D S Mi ' H U l I ' i A l C U U K I H I H O M I fr K
U N I t f c D S T A I t S D I S T R I C T C C U . M T
Ravin - Direct 1244
there to be any question on the part of counsel as to the
basis of this data. We have it here in the courtroom. We
teller it. We do not necessarily want to clutter the record
with it.
MR. WITT: May it please the Court, at this time,
if I knew it was relevant, I night have a different position
and I am — asking me to aake a decision when I don't know
what is going on.
THE COURT» As I understand, it's available and
if it becomes relevant, I assus» it will be available to
introduce.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q Do you have here and have you furnished me the
original print-out data since it's data fr<ss which you prepared
your other documents?
A Yes, I have.
Q And in the event it becomes desirable, you a ire
perfectly willing for that to remain here and be introduced
as an exhibit?
A Yes, I am.
Q All right, sir. Now, will you go forward with
your testimony and explain to the Court exactly — I understand
you have prepared a map. If you wish to have that — perhaps
> > •'’1 j 1 be ** 1 to have that mounted at this time.
W U M A R C ) s M i III I>)f i A; i < '• • ' W ' i'l iH
u n i t s i A r m d i s t r i c t c o m m
Ravin - Direct 1245
A A-ll right. I think it would be simpler if we
can do that.
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, before
mounting this, can we have that marked as an exhibit for
identification?
THE COURT: Mo. 89 for identification.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit Mo. 89
for identification, Witness Mr.
Ravin.)
THE COURT: Mr. Williams, it might be helpful and
relevant for the witness, if he has the information readily
available, to give us the overall census data on Chattanooga
for the two years that he is referring to; that is the two
< ' t: /
decades and also the racial data that is available.
MR. WILLIAMS: He will do that, if Your Honor
please. I am just getting this map mounted at the moment. I
believe he intends to begin -- he has some pins here.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q All right. Mr. Ravin, would you now proceed to
state what your findings were?
A All right. May I describe the map?
Q Yes.
A Briefly, the map itself illustrates as I noted
earlier by census enumeration districts, the current racial
N i l H A R D S M I T H U H T I A L C O U N ! H P Q H > F W
U N I T f l ) S T A T F S D I S T R I C T c o u -m
Kavin - Direct 1246
population, currant racial distribution. Chm araaa shown in
5 solid yellow on the map are those areau which are presently
1 90 to 100 percent white. The areas which are shown in yellow
'I and which have the widely spaced brown lines are 70 to 89
() percent white, and the areas shown in yellow with the closely
spaced diagonal brown lines are 50 to 69 percent white.
The areas shown in solid brown are 90 to 100
percent black. The areas shown in crcas-hatcfa brown are
70 to 89 percent black. And the areas shown in the slanted
brown lines are 50 to 69 percent black.
There is actually one small area which is immediate
to the east of the central business district which is blank
iy
11
13
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IH
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q (Interposing) Is that this area?
A In which the number of blacks and whites happens
to be 146 each, and rather than confuse the map with a ninth
color, I left that blank.
q in other words, in that particular area is
50 percent black and 50 percent white and the number of each
is exactly the same, 147?
A Yes.
q la that right?
A Now, generally speaking, the areas which are
shown in color are the areas where residences exist. The
areas which are blank except for the one I just noted are
H l f H A R O b M i l H O ' H O A L C O l » H I R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Ravin - Direct 1247
areas vnich either are undeveloped or are developed in some
use oth*r than residential; that is, they M y be industrial
or commercial. They may be schools or parks or some other
use. What the map shows is only residential areas.
Another qualification which uust be made is that
in spite of the fact that the detail is smaller than that of
a census tract, it still mist be said that the distribution
shown within each enumeration district is shown uniformly.
So that — it is certainly the case that there are enumeration
districts which may appear, for example, to be 70 percent
black or 70 percent white in which the racial distribution
within that enumeration district is not evenly distributed
70-30; but one would find cm examination, as I have in driving
around the city, that that enumeration district is simply
divided so that the blacks live in one part and the urtiites
in another. But, taking the total, it is 70-30.
THE COURT: Enumeration districts, how large —
are they uniform in size or not?
THE WITNESS: No, they are not. Some of them
are as large as six or seven hundred people. Some of them
have fewer than fifty people in them.
THE COURT: Are they geographically the same?
TlIE WITNESS: No, which brings us to the last
qualification I think of on this map and that is that the
W'C H A N D S M I T H O f F ' f l A l C O ' I W ' N (■ P O H T t W
1 H K . Tj M T f O S T A ' | S O ' S
Ravin - Direct 1248
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21
map in no way reflects density so that two areas which appear
L:.o .vi £ *ize on the map and are described as having the saste
characteristics — that is, you may have two areas both of
which are all yellow, both of which are 100 percent white —
and one may have 75 whites in it and the oilier 2,000. So, the
map does not reflect density other than that we know that as
we move eastward through the city, the density does decrease
and as we cross the river and go northward, the density does
decrease; and in the central area and immediately northeast
of the central area and to sons extent to the south are the
highest densities in the city.
BY MR. WILLIAMS;
Q
A
Q
A
All right.
But now —
(Interposing) Pardon
Pardon me.
Q Have you also prepared a tabular ret indentation
of the census state?
A
U
Yes, I have, as I described earlier.
Is this —
MR. WILLIAMS: Please the Court, I should like
to have that marked the next exhibit for identification.
THE COURT: Exhibit No. 90.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
90 for identification. Witness Mr.H„MAR[ Rav*A*,.pa&Ti;f£fifcved in evidence.!
V H ' n r c r f •-* O ' S T R ' O T C O U R T
Ravin - Direct 1249
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q Will you explain that, please, Nr. Ravin?
A Yea. This table is divided into three tables:
One, population} one, households; the othe.r one, housing units.
And, within each one of those it gives the total population,
white population, the non-white population, and the percentage
non-white for 1960 and 1970.
By way of explanation, the non-white population
includes a small fraction, less than one percent, of people
who are other than black; that is, they a m oriental or
other people whom the census class as non-white and this is
the r&e.Aon for the use of the category hare.
Q All right. Now, then, whah analysis if any have
you made with regard to the effectiveness of the School Board's
desegregation plan — wait a minute. I ax. ahead of myself.
Based on the statistical data, what are your
findings and conclusions?
A Well, the population of the city as a whole
dropped by about 12,000 people.
Q Wait a minute, wait a minute. Let me revise that
question. Based on the statistical data md the document
that you have prepared, what are your findings and conclusions
which may have some relevance regarding the effectiveness of
the present school zones to affirmatively accomplish a unitary
Mi > < ANU b M i I H O H n A l H I W ' N I M .
M S O l S T R i r
I
6
8
u
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II
i a
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20
Ravin - Direct 12I»0
school system in Chattanooga?
A Well, I can aay I hope the information would be
relevant. I myself — I myself am tJ • >; nughly —
THE COURT: (Interposing) Just a minute. Let
the attorney —
MR. WITT: (Interposing) It‘s difficult to me
to see that the proper foundation has been laid for that
question and whether or not he has any understanding of a
unitary system or --
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) I will withdraw the
question.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q * ;cribe your findings.
A Between I960 and 1970, the population of the city
has dropped by approximately 12,000. 3ut, during the inter
vening ten years, there's been annexation of substantial areas
which have added to — roughly twelve thousand persons to the
city. So that if one compares the 1960 — area of the city
for 1960 and — 1960, one finds that the actual drop in popula
tion is some 2.4,200. Of this loss within the 1960 boundary,
22,000 were white and 1,100 were black.
However, since roughly eleven hundred or twelve
hundred blacks were also added to the am'.e.vation, the number
of blacks in the city has remained within six of what it was
R I H A R O •Mi - ’ H O f H l 41 r O i ' R - M t - R O H T t - R
N i b : *, S T R
Ravin - Direct 1251
in 1960. The black population in 1960 was 43,226 an n 1970,
43,199.
Now, in 1960, roughly thirty-two and a half
thousand or 73 percent of the black population lived in the
seven census tracts. These were four, nine, fifteen —
Q (Interposing) All right. Now, wait a minute.
Let's see if we have a pointer. Is there a pointer available?
Well, I have got a fancy one here.
Now, sir, all right.
A These tracts were four, nine, fifteen —
Q (Interposing) Wait a minute. You are going to
have to go — four, nine, fifteen?
A Sixteen, nineteen, twenty, and twenty-one, which
is just above nineteen.
Q All right.
A h of those tracts was 85 percent or more
black. And of the 2,500 blacks lived in census tract eleven,
which at the time was 61.7 percent black.
Thus, a total cf roughly 79 percent of the black
population lived in these eight census tracts each of which
was majority black and the bulk of which were almost all black.
In 1970, six of these seven tracts were still
over 85 percent black. One of them, census tract number nine,
had been cleared through urban renewal. However, the total
R • < M A R I ) s m i t h O M n i A L C O U R T
N I I K ' j ’ 4 ' 1 . o S T R . ' I ' w
Ravin - Direct. 1252
black population of these tracts declined turns — had declined
from thirty-two and a half thousand to roughly twenty-three
and a hr.If thousand or free 73 percent to 54 percent of the
1970 black population. And, additional 11,000 blacks or
27 percent of the total new live in eight tracts — eight
additional tracts, that is two, three, five, ten — ten and
eleven are right together just east of the central business
district — twelve, which is also ther'v, twenty-two, which is
below there — no, down further — and to the left above the
freeway, yes.
And, 115 which is a newly annexed tract. Each of
these contain between 50 and 84 —
THE COURTr (Interposing) Just a sonant. I
missed o xe of the seven tracts that you named in the original
group. Would you mind repeating those tracts?
THE WITNESS: Four, nine, fifteen, sixteen,
nineteen, twenty, and twenty-one.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS, Now, as I Indicated, some 27
percent of the black population, 1970, now lived in these
additional eight tracts, making a total of 84 percent of the
black population which now lived in ntajority black census
tracts.
J8Y MR. WILLIAMS:
M ‘ K A f t U S M ' l H A l C O W * ' f c * » PCl w' t K
U N i T F O S I A ’ I - S n S T »■ C ’ • O .
1
Ravin - Direct 1253
»
*
Q Before you go on — before you go oo, I had
intended to stop you when you were talking about total pecula
1 tion loss, and you mentioned that the loss of approximately
11,000 blacks had been compensated by the acquisition of
ft approximately 11,000?
• A Eleven hundred.
Q Eleven hundred?
<)
10
11
A Yes.
Q Had been compensated by the acquisition of 1,100
additional blacks in the newly annexed areas.
12
13
Did you mean to say by that that you draw any
elusion as to whether those blacks originally lived in those
1 l
ir ,
areas or is it possible that those blacks may have moved into
those areas from the central city?
i(>
17
iH
A Both of those are equally possible. They may be
people who lived there originally or they may be among those
who moved from the inner city tracts to some of the annexed
• areas.
f l
20 Q And is the same true of the whites who were residing
21
22
i r . L r . e s e newly annexed areas, during the decade they may have
moved into those areas of the country from the city, may they
23 not?
24 A Yes, yes, that's so.
23 Q All right.
R < H A R O S M 1 ' H O O ' . AL C O u H T
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Ravin - Direct 1254
A Shell I continue?
Q Tee. Will you continue with your findings?
A How, other data which were considered along with
m ;,:,e it clear that public action has played a significant
role in a lot of the population shift and the two primary
ones being the cans true ti on during this decade of elements
of the interstate system through the city and the undertaking
of an urban renewal project just west of the central business
district.
q I'm sorry. I don't have copies of this.
MR. WITTJ May it please the Court, it seems like
to me that I object to — testimony is not relevant insofar
as I am concerned. If there is anything that the Swann
integration case says, it is that this School Board is only
responsible for its actions. It is not responsible for the
actions of other state agencies of any kind. And, it specifics
stated this in Swann. Therefore, his testimony, as far as I
can see, is completely irrelevant.
THE COURT: Believe the objection should be over
ruled at this point and should be allowed to proceed.
THE WITNESS: One last point that I think I'd
like to go back to and add to the information on the movement
into new tracts is that one thing that is quite clear is that
in spite of the very significant movement which did take
R I i ' H A H U r>Mi 1 H 0 * - M > A i r O U H l t . F P O R T I W
U N I T E C S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O l » T
Ravin - Direct. 1255
i l
11
20
2.J
2 1
place, almost all of it took place in ureas 1— sadlately
contiguous to the pre-existing black residential areas. So
that what was produced in effect was an extension of the fomerjly
black residential area and if in fact one consults the table
of population, it's easy to see that the population of those
formerly all-black tracts which remain formerly all-black have
simply cropped so that the blacks have not been replaced by
whites. It is not a case in which there has been an integration
of the pattern but simply one in which people moved out —
very simply moved to areas that were adjacent to the area in
which they lived.
And the major extension of the formerly black
concentrated census tracts has been to the east and somewhat
to the north, just east of the major railroad yards and
between those yards and the ridge.
q Now, Mr. Ravin, before you go further, I have
a document that I’d like you to look a\; and state whether
or not that is one which was furnished you through the
Chattanooga Housing Authority?
A Yes, it was.
Q Like to introduce that, if Youx Honor please,
as the next exhibit.
THE COURT: Exhibit No. 91.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was tuarked Exhibit No.
91 for identification, 'Witness Mr.
1 navin, and received in evidence.)
U N I T E D S T A T F S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Ravin - Direct, 1256
MR. WILLIAMS} May it pleasa the Court, I thought
that the last exhibit wai No. 89.
THE COURT: Mo, No. 90 was the census data
extrapolated from —
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) No. 89 was the
map?
THE COURT: Eighty-nine was the nap.
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, I'd like,
before I forget about it, I’d like to move the introduction
of the map and the table at this time.
THE COURT: Allow then to be filed. They are
already marked.
(Thereupon, the document previously
narked Exhibit No. 29 for identifi
cation was received in evidence.)
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
q All right. How, Mr. Ravin, what is set forth
on the exhibit that we have just passed, that we have just
handed you and that we secured from the housing Authority?
Well, I will just ask you to state whether or not it contains
the names and the tenant occupancy of the — of the housing
projects in the City of Chattanooga?
A Yes, it does.
q And, you have indicated, then, I believe, on
this map —
R I C H A R D s m i t h O M I C l A l C O K H 1 R E R O R I f c - *
U N I T E D S T A T E S Ol S T R I C T C O U R T
n
11
is
i (>
! 7
IH
1 9
20
21
)o
2 3
21
A (Interposing) By a black catline.
Q By a black outline. Do you have in your notea
where those housing projects are located?
A I know exactly where they are located, but not
by name.
MR. WILLIAMS: All right, sir. I wonder if Hia
Honor would permit him to use the exhibit temporarily and
then —
BY MR. WILLIAMS t
Q Would you locate the housing projects, please,
on this raap?
A Yes. Three of them or four, actually, are ioca_'
in census tract nineteen and as I indicated, I do not know
them by name.
Q All right. Well, now, you do not know them by
name?
Ravin - Direct 1257
A I do not.
Q You have a map there on which you can
can you not?
A Yes.
Q By name?
A The southernmost one is Brans Wheeler.
Q And that’s here?
A Next one up is called McCallie Homes.
U f H ( A l C O U H !
U N I T t D S T A T F S O ' S T R ' C T C O U H '
Ravin - Direct 1258
Q Yea.
A There is then an unnamed high-rise elderly
development.
Q Is that here?
A Yes, and just immediately rortheast of that is
Marie ”osa Homes.
Q All right. Now —
A (Interposing) Then within the urban renewal
project just to the west of the freeway is College Hill Courts,
Q All right. Now, what is the racial complexion of
all of those that you have mentioned in terms of their
tenant occupancy?
A They are indicated here as being all black or
virtually all black. Let me go through those again by name.
0 Begin with the Wheeler —
A (Interposing) Emma Wheeler, 3 3a black, 2 white.
Q All right.
A College Hill, I believe, was the next one — no,
the next one was McCallie Homes, which is 604 black and 4
white. And the elderly high-rise — and I am unable to tell
by this whether that's the 60-unit or 100-unit, neither one
of them is identified by name.
Q All right. Well, let’s —
A (Interposing) But, the census data would indicate
U N I T f D S T A T E S D I S T W i C T C O U M T
Ravin - Direct 1259
it to be —
q (Interposing) Let’s forget about the elderly
high-rise and go on to the next one that’s right by it there.
A All right. Marie Rosa is 192 black, no white.
And College Hill, which is the one in the vrban renewal project,
is 494 black and 3 white.
q All right, sir. Mow, what are the other — are
there other housing projects?
A Yes, there is a housing project just south of the
freeway there called Bast Lake Courts and chat s a pre
dominantly white project, and there’s
q (interposing) What's the population of that
East Lake, the occupancy of that by race?
A That is 391 white and 45 non-white.
q All right.
A And then —
q (interposing) Forty-five black, forty-five
non-whits?
A Yes, and then just to the west of the railroad
yards is Boone-Hysinger and that's indicated as 158 white and
242 black.
q All right. Is that — well, we will get to
that later.
Mow, before I leave the nw.p, you have indicated
H K H A R O S M I 1 M O F M C I A L C O U M 1 W t P O H f t H
O N I T F O S T A T f S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Ravin - Direct 1260
that you also have area encircled in bright red. What are
those areas?
A Those are the urban renewal projects. There are
three.
Q All right. tire are they located?
A One is in census tract nine, which is there, and
which is in the execution stages, having been cleared during
this decade. The other one —
0 (Interposing) Is that a total clearance urban
ra.Moval project currently —
A (Interposing) I believe so. I ae really not
certain. There may be sons other buildings that are in
there now which were excluded.
Q All right.
A Certainly the housing project was excluded.
0 All right.
A The other one is just east of there. There is a
project under the number five which is the university and
medical center, I think, urban renewal project, which is not
yet in execution. And to the east of that, very large project,
which is called Orchard Knob — Orchard Knob Urban Renewal,
which is also to ray knowledge not yet in execution.
And, that covers an extensive area in — well,
centered around census tract four and extending into several
R ' t H A R O S M I I H O f - n C l A L C O U R T I ► P O R T f c h
U N I T t D S ' A l f S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Ravin - Direct 1261
adjacent tracts.
Q All right. State whether or not both the first
and third of those urban renewal projects are in areas of
high black residential concentration.
A Yes, they are.
Q All right. Thank you very ouch, sir. All right,
sir. Will you continue with your findings, if you will,
pass back to the Court that exhibit and continue.
A Yes. As I indicated earlier, it seems that it
would appear quite clear, in fact, that in considerable
measure the substantial movement which hAS taken place has
been generated by primarily two public actions: One, the
construction of 1-24, the other one, the urban renewal
project.
The urban renewal project, the Gateway project,
and that segment of 1-24 which lies within the project,
affected census tracts 20, 21, 22, 23 — oh, I am sorry —
I am sorry. That's — that's incorrect. Those tracts are
for the balance of the interstate.
The urban renewal project and portion of the
highway within it affected tracts u, 9, 15, and 16 and
population of those tracts between 1960 and 1970 fell by
approximately 6,100. Of these, 1,780 were white and 4,308
were black.
R H H A R D S M I T H O f h C l A L C O U N I R l P O R T f c H
U N I I E O S T A T f S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Ravin - 01*** 12*2
Q So that there was a substantial displacement of
white * upulation in this as wall ai black in this area?
A That's correct.
Q Yes.
A Now, construction of the balance of the Interstate
that is that portion of it which lies within the City but
outside of the urban renewal project, affected tracts 20, 21,
22, 23, 25.
Q Where is 23?
A Twenty-three is next to nineteen.
Q Oh, I see, all right. And 25?
A And 27.
Q And 27?
A Yes.
0 All right.
A Population of these tracts fell by alsiost 10,000,
I960 and 1: 70. And, of these, 5,21; were white 4,660
were black.
0 That was in this area here along the freeway,
is that correct?
A That's correct, yes. Thus, approximately ^
persons were displaced by the construction of rnese projects,
7,000 white -- these are rounded figures, of course — 7,000
white and 3,000 black.
These conprised 12.3 percent of the total
R I C ' M A R O S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R f c P O R . f c R
U N I T E D S T A T E S O i S T R I C T C O U R T
Ravin - Direct 12b J
population, 8 percent of the white population, and al«oat 21
percent of the black population. I thirk essentially that
summarizes the findings.
q 1 right. Do you have — do you have any con
clusions with regard to racial residential patterns in
Chattanooga as a result of these studies?
A Only I think to reiterate what I indicated
earlier that the substantial movement which has taken place
with two small exceptions, both of those east of the ridge,
I
the bulk of the movement in the change and the housing pattern
which has occurred has produced an extensi w of the black
residential area, which existed in 1860 ani has moved it
to the north and northeast.
The displacement and substantial movement has
not resulted in racial integration in the housing pattern.
0 Do you have, Mr. Ravin, do you have any conclusion!
regarding any implications of the racial concentrations and
movements that you have indicated in reference to school
zoning?
A I am not sure I understand. I am unfamiliar myself
with the specific school zones. I have only prepared the
background, perhaps, with which others can make the comparison,
q Well, let me ask you this: With regard to the
housing projects that you have mentioned, where are the
O N I t E O S T * T t S D> ST Wi«" T f O U B I
Ravin - Direct 1264
I
m a j o r i t y o f. t h e h o u s i n g p r o j e c t s l o c a t e d ?
A T h e y a r e l o c a t e d i n b l a c k r e s i d e n t i a l a r e a s o r
i n a r e a s t h a t a p p e a r t o b e r a p i d l y b e c o m i n g b l a c k .
Q A l l r i g h t . I n r e f e r e n c e t o c o m p a c t , i n r e f e r e n c e
t o c o m p a c t z o n e s f o r s c h o o l s , i n y o u r c p i n i o n , a r e t h e r a c i a l
c o n c e n t r a t i o n s i n t h e C i t y o f C h a t t a n o o g a c o n d u c i v e t o t h e
i n t e g r a t i o n o f t h e s c h o o l s y s t e m b y r a c i a l l y c o m p a c t z o n e s ?
M R . W I T T : Y o u r H o n o r , I d o n ' t b e l i e v e t h e p r o p e r
f o u n d a t i o n h a s b e e n l a i d t h a t t h i s w i t n e s s w o u l d h a v e a n y i d e a
h o w t o a n s w e r t h a t q u e s t i o n .
T H E C O U R T : W e l l —
M R . W I L L I A M S : ( I n t e r p o s i n g ) H e i s a c i t y p l a n n e r ,
i f Y o u r H o n o r p l e a s e .
M R . W I T T : H e d o e s n ' t k n o w a n y t h i n g a b o u t s c h o o l s .
T H E C O U R T : A r e y o u a c q u a i n t e d w i t h t h e s c h o o l s
a n d t h e l o c a t i o n s o f t h e s c h o o l s ?
T H E W I T N E S S : I h a v e l o o k e d a t t h e s c h o o l s l o c a t i o n
m a p . I a m c e r t a i n l y n o t a s t h o r o u g h l y f a m i l i a r w i t h i t a s
t h e p e o p l e w h o h a v e b e e n p r i m a r i l y c o n c e r n e d w i t h t h a t a s p e c t
o f i t ; b u t . Y o u r H o n o r , i f , a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e q u e s t i o n , i t
i s s i m p l y g i v e n a c o n c e n t r a t e d r a c i a l p a t t e r n , c a n a n y s y s t e m
o f d i s t r i c t i n g , w h e t h e r i t b e f o r s c h o o l s , f o r s h o p p i n g ,
f u n c t i o n o n a n i n t e g r a t e d b a s i s .
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
R H A R O S M I T H O F F I C A L C O U R T R E P G R T £ R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
!()
I i
! 1
15
I <3
20
0 That's not the question, that's not the question.
A Then I don't understand it.
Q I will withdraw the question.
MR. WITT; I have no questions of the witness.
THE COURT: All right. May this witness be
excused, then, from any further appearance in the trial?
MR. WILLIAMS: As far as I'.a concerned, he may be
excused.
witness excused.)
THE COURT: Now, may we resume our regular order
of proof?
MR. WITT: Mr. Holden, will you take the stand?
Tiir. COURT: Is this the last witness that you
plan to present for defense or do you have others? This is the
fourth witness today.
MR. WITT: I am not certain.
THE COURT: Okay.
DEAN HOLDEN,
Ravin - Direct 1265
25
2 1
having been previously duly sworn, resumed the witness stand,
and testified further as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued)
BY MR. WITT:
Q Well, Mr. Holden, I believe that we had begun an
examination of what now is Exhibit No. 87. Is there any
Wi< H A R O S M I ’ h O ^ i C i A I C O U R t H 1 P O H U H
U N I T E D S T A T E S O l S T R i C T C O U R T
Holden - Direct 12*6
reference to race on this request?
A No, sir.
Q All right. Did this — did yot. use the sane form
for the previous year?
A This form is revised slightly from the previous
(Thereupon, the document referred to
year. above was marked exhibit #92, witness Mr.
Hoiden and received in evidence.)
Q I hand you a form which now — Exhibit — you
made Exhibit 92 to your testimony, I believe, what's the
difference in the two forms?
A Basically, the two forma are the sane in the top
portion as was explained, I believe, by a previous witness.
There has been some clarification of the policies under which
a request may be made. And therefore, you will notice under
part two that the provisions for request under which out-of
zone requests may be considered have ixsen extended. On the
1970 revised form, we go through the letter “M," and on the
previouj one which lias been in use since 19*3 and '64, I
believe, we go through the letter V.* These have reference to
the statements of reasons for under which student transfers
can be considered that appear on the back of the document
which we are looking.
Q Do these represent any major change in zone
policies?
A Does the 1970 revision represent a major change?
R I C H A R D S M I T H O D K M T O U R ' R » R G M M R
N I T E O S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U P '
Holden - Direct 1267
Q Yes.
A From previous years; no, sir.
Q Now —
A (Interposing) May I add thct there are merely
a clarification or two?
Q Would you point out the clarifications, please,
sir?
A Yes, these may have been pointed out in previous
testimony.
Through the years, it has been a practice of the
Board and I believe written in the zoning policies but not
enumerated in this, listing that in cases where pupils were
assigned to special education classes and their home school
had no special education class or their home school was over
crowded in special education classes, that these pupils could
be assigned to another school in which the particular special
education class was provided.
This was normally — this was normally handled
by the people — may not be using the proper title here —
but person in charge in our system, supervisor of special
education had a part in this. So, this was — this was done.
It was also written in the narrative portions of the pupil
accounting books, but had thought — we felt that it was
proper to draw it into a specific reason here.
MIC H A R D S M i T H O F F i T i A t . C O U N T R E P O R T E R
U N I T t O S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Holden - Direct 1268
A n o th e r p r a c t ic e w hich a ls o was w r i t t e n in th e
n a r r a t iv e p o r t io n o f the zo n in g books was t h a t i f a p u p i l
moved o u t o f a s c h o o l zone d u r in g a c u r r e n t y e a r w h ich he was
a lre a d y e n r o l le d , t h a t he c o u ld be p e rm it te d t o rem ain on
te m p o ra ry perm anent th ro u g h the b a la n c e o f the y e a r . We f e l t
t h a t t h i s a ls o sh o u ld come in as one o f th 3 s p e c i f i c re a s o n s
and t h a t we sh o u ld have t h is on f i l e and have knowledge o f i t
in o u r o f f i c e s . By " we, " I mean t h i s recom m endation came in
th e s t y le from - - p a r t i c u l a r l y from th e a re a o f p u p i l p e rs o n n e l
w o rk in g th ro u g h the A s s is t a n t S u p e rin te n d e n t in t h a t a re a .
I b e lie v e t h a t the o n ly new one added is " L . "
T h is may have been t e s t i f i e d to and p e rh a p s i s s u p e rf lu o u s
h e re . Was " K , " n o t " L , " " K , " p u p i ls to move to a n o th e r school
zone d u r in g t h i s summer v a c a t io n o r d u r in g between y e a rs
im m e d ia te ly p r i o r to c o m p le tin g the h ig h e s t g ra d e o f a s c h o o l,
e le m e n ta ry s c h o o l, i f th e y move between th e f i f t h and s i x t h ,
ju n io r h ig h , i f th e y move between th e e ig h th and n in t h ,
p e rm is s io n was p ro v id e d f o r them to f i n i s h in th e s c h o o l to
w h ich th e y had been a t t e n d in g . T h is was f e l t to be re a s o n a b ly
from an e d u c a tio n a l s ta n d p o in t .
i
Q M r. H o ld e n , are th e re any d e v ia t io n s from these
p o l i c i e s as f a r as you know? Have th e re been any d e v ia t io n s ?
A No, s i r , th e re a re n o t d e v ia t io n s from th e p o l i c y .
R e f e rr in g to the c u r r e n t - - r e f e r r i n g to th e c u r r e n t form o f
O u
Holden - Direct 12b9
policy "H," we would call, perhaps all others specific and
legitimate. Policy "H" also would be a legitimate, but policy
"I!" provides for a thorough review of situations that are not
covered in any of these others which are specific, and this is
what we call a Superintendent's decision, generally. Persons
from our pupil personnel division, visiting teacher services
are assigned and make a fairly extensive review and consultation
with parents, sometimes with medical personnel, with evaluaticn
center people, diagnostic center people and they make a
written review and recommendation upon which a decision is
made.
I
Q But, this is only applicable to situations not
specifically covered by "A" through ”M," exclusive of "II,"
is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, other than yourself, what individuals in
thi3 system are involved in the process of initiating and
processing requests for transfers?
A Procedure for request for transfer — and this is
a procedure of long standing — is that persons desiring to
have a transfer request considered, go to the school to which i
they would like to have their child attend. They present
their request to the principal who has the responsibility
for discussing and counseling with them on the reasons which
H K . M A U P M < O f * ' ■ A . ! o o ' n W( »•
U f ' l l r T R , . » l O . K T
Holden - Direct 1270
have been provided under which all the zone permits may be
granted and to discuss thoroughly their request. Many request
never get past the discussion stage. Many requests never get
to written form because they are turned down at that point.
Q Is this a decision by the principal?
s
A Sir?
Q Is this a decision by the principal?
A This would be a decision, when the person was
made aware that they do not come within Board policy, and
that they did not see any reason to follow through on the
request, If it appears to be with the Board policy, two
copies of this should be provided and presented by the parent,
by the person asking for the request. This is the person or
person acting in place of the parent.
Both of them being returned to the school and
perhaps in many cases -- most cases, I would assume — being
prepared in the principal's office at the time and the
principal then makes his recommendation that he is satisfied
that the statements that have been made to him are true.
This is the procedure.
Q Last year — I am handing you a document entitled
"Revised Policies Governing Out-of-Zone Enrollment." Believej
this will be Exhibit 93.
Was thi3 prepared by you?
"
- i
THE COURT: Ninety-three.
(Thereupon, the document referred to
above was marked Exhibit No. 93
for identification, Witness Mr.
Holden, and received in evidence.)
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
HR. WILLIAMS. May I Inquire, if Your Honor please
as to what Exhibit 92 was?
THE COURT: Ninety-two was the second form or
request.
BY MR. WITT:
Q i notice that the pencil marks on the enclosure.
What do they indicate?
A well, this is a distribution to the schools or
portion of our distribution to the schools of the revised
zoning policies which we have fairly w e U covered to this
point which were approved by official Board action, and for
them to incorporate in their toning policy booklet or in their
school board policies.
First page of course is a memo to the principals
advising that three copies are being provided for that
purpose and in an effort to perhaps in an effort to perhaps
better acquaint them with any revisions or changes that have
been made.
1271
Holden - Direct
One additional copy was sent which is this
Holden - Direct 1 2 1 2
particular piece of evidence which may look a little sketchy,
but this is an exact copy of it in whicn by, believe, red
pencil or red pen, these particular notations were made so
that the principal could at a quick glance become aware of
the changes.
Q Mr. Holden, I hand you a document entitled "Zoning
Policies,” copy from Chattanooga public schools zoning policy
and regulations booklet, 1966-67. Wilj you make this Exhibit
94 to your testimony?
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
94 for identification, Witness Mr.
Holden, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT:
Q Would you explain what this is.
A Believe we were previously asked, Mr. Witt, to
provide plaintiff with copies of our criteria for out-of-zc .
transfers.
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, I should
like to ask that Exhibit 65 be referred to and if counsel
will not find that what he is putting in now and perhaps some
more of what he intends to put in is already in evidence,
Collective Exhibit 65, which was his response to our subpoena
request number four and which is entitled "Criteria for
Student Transfers."
f?•'« M * H l i >M ' r- ' l h V i A L C O J T P*
’ * r E S m s r » ') N ' T f S' . O '
Holden - Direct 1273
THE COURT: Yes. That does appear to have this
same exhibit in it.
MR. WITT: I am sorry. That was my mistake.
THE COURT: Wish to strike tnis exhibit?
MR. WITT: Yes.
BY MR. WITT:
Q Mr. Holden, I hand you some material and ask for
you to identify it and make it Exhibit 94 no your testimony.
What does this material purport to be?
A These are copies of two pages which appear in
what we call the administrative bulletin ho. 1. It is a
mimeographed document which goes out to school principals
prior to the opening of school each year with specific items
which need their attention at the beginning of the year or
for the full year. The document that t have here is the --
in other words, this exact copy appeared in '66-67, '68-69
bulletins. I didn't have access to previous bulletins.
Q And what is the purpose of this material?
A This is to provide — the specific purposes here
is referring to items 16, 17, and 18, to give perhaps further
clarification to our zoning policies and practices and to
apprise the principals again and routinely, regularly, of
their responsibility in the area of pupil transfers, ihe
portions which appear relevant to me, if I may say this, 16,
H • » • » ' * ' • M •• O f f f I A ’ . i • i.
1 N ' r ' j • ■ f ■ .<1 I '• I. .
Holden - Direct 1274
17, and 18. The others, perhaps, should have been deleted.
Q Show you another document and ask you to identify
that and make it Exhibit 95.
A The previous pages we looked at were quotations
from the old administrative bulletins of '66-67, '68, and *69,
and I believe that there's a variation from that wording as
it appeared in the current school year's bulletin, 1970.
This is the comparable items.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
95 for identification, Witness Mr.
Holden, and received in evidence.)
B Y M R . W I T T :
Q All right. Would you point out the significance
of the change in 1970, if it's of significance?
A I don't feel that there is any great significant
differences. We are establishing — ray point, as I look at
this, is establishing the procedures here and the responsibil
ities that various persons may have in this area of out-of
zone requests and item No. 16, second paragraph:
"Principals should study their respective
zone most carefully because it is the principal's responsibil
ity to be sure the students attending his school are within
the zone or have a permit to attend out cf zone."
Item No. 7, the last — the last sentence;
M A <' O . M M >1
Holden - Direct 1275
"It should be noted that the principal of each
school has the responsibility for determining that all pupils
in his school are either residents within the zone or have
an out-of-zone permit."
This is emphasizing the point that each person who
has the responsibility in this area pJay.
Q I will hand you a document entitled "Pupil
Accounting, Part 1." Will you please identify that and make
that Exhibit No. 9G to your testimony?
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
96 for identification, Witness Mr.
Holden, and received in evidence.)
THE WITNESS: We have a booklet which we have
entitled "Pupil Accounting Regulations and Procedures," I
believe is the full title of it for identification purposes.
Pages after the first one carried that exact title. We have
page six and page ten appearing here. This is an additional
document to verify our — to verify our distribution
responsibilities in this area.
On page six, the first of the two under "I,"
accounting for students, specifying elementary and junior
high:
"The elementary or junior high principal is
responsible for the accounting of all .scnool-age students who
W U H A h C S M • . . O f f I A H T -I • »' ( H , ,J
• N !» r . • ^ ' f f s o l S r « i • • c O w • ’ '
Holden - Direct 1276
are enrolled in his school for the previous year and the
school-age students who are enrolled for the current year."
On the following page at the too of the page;
"Junior high and elementary principals are to
account for all school-age pupils who were enrolled in their
schools at the end of the previous year and for all other
school-age students who reside in their school zones and are
eligible to attend their schools the current year."
And toward the bottom of the page, number three,
"Sources of Information";
“Principals should use all sources of information
concerning students, such as promotion lists, information from
other students, previous year's enrollment, and so forth in
determining the students who should attend his school."
These are the pupil accounting regulations; are
distributed and are in possession of each principal in the schc
system.
ol
Q I hand you a document entitled "Policy Governing
the Transition of Single School Zone Lines Implementing the
Chattanooga Plan of Desegregation,” and asx you to make this
Exhibit 97.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
97 for identification, Witness Mr.
Holden, and received in evidence.)
Bolden - Direct 1277
BY MR. WITT:
Q v.Lat is the date of this, Mr. Holden?
A These copies of information which appeared in our
archives in the 1962-63 school zoning books and perhaps I
might should explain that we either make new or updated school
zoning books for distribution to each school each year.
These contain the current regulations pertaining tc
out-of-zone transfers and also contain copies of each of the
Board-adopted, Board-approved school zones. This is a map
and also a legal description. We term it a legal description, 1
a written narrative statement of the boundaries of the school
zones.
From a map, you might not determine that the
line went down the middle of a street. From the reading, you
would determine that it did go at that particular point. So,
this is that document.
Q Does this make any reference to an order of the
federal court with regard to transfers?
A Turning four pages over, thi3 information as I
understand it, is the beginning of our years of desegregation
and quotes the court as follows, yes, sir.
Q Would you read it, please?
A Toward the bottom third of the page:
"Policies and regulations for the admission and
O h ^ . . i
Holden - Direct 1278
transfer of pupils to the desegregated schools were approved by
the Board which were consistent with the proposals for
admission and transfer in the Chattanooga plan of desegregation.
In lieu, however, of the policy and regulations proposed by
the Board, the federal district court ruled as follows:
”'The Court holds that the school board may adopt
any admission or transfer plan as in its judgment may be
reasonable and proper for the operation of the Chattanooga
public schools, so long as such plan is not based upon race
and does not have as its primary purpose the delay or preven
tion of desegregation in accordance with the Chattanooga plan
of desegregation herein approved.'"
0 What was the date of that document?
A This is a portion of the 19G2-63 bulletin.
i
Q Mr. Holden, earlier Mr. Williams has asked for
some additional information with regard to transfers. Have
you been able to secure that information?
A Yes, sir, to the best of our ability. It was
quite a lengthy job.
Q How long did the 2-hour job take?
|A Left the courtroom at noon on Tuesday, working
Imuch of the time myself and most of the time from three to
iifour secretaries, each day working some overtime, we have -- i
we are at this point and we hope that it is sufficient to meet ;
Holden - Direct 1/1'j
the request. It was finished with the ladies, four secretaries
working into their lunch period today.
Q Would you make this Exhibit 97 to your testimony —
98?
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
98 for identification, Witness Mr.
Holden, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT.
Q Mr. Holden, would you explain what we have?
A We have here, I hope is sufficient information, to !
I
meet the request of the plaintiff. Originally were requested
|
to provide, I trust this is an order -- we were originally i
requested to provide —
M R . WILLIAMS: (Interposing) I object to it,
because it's not in order. It's an attempt to complain about
the form of a request by the plaintiffs, if Your Honor please,
and the important thing — if the plaintiffs weren't here,
they wouldn’t have any desegregation, if Year Honor please.
They act like the plaintiffs are imposing a burden on them
in trying to get them to comply with their constitutional
duty. I object to all of this foolishness, it seems to me,
if Your Honor please, by which the defendants attempt to
tax the plaintiffs for simply trying to get appropriate informa
tion before the Court to require them to comply with their
Holden - Direct 1280
constitutional duties.
THE COURT: Let's proceed to identify the exhibit
without explaining why.
) 4
THE WITNESS; Yes, sir. The exhibit, I believe,
has four portions. The first one is a copy which is already
in exhibit, of the current request form and reasons for out-
of-zone transfers. The second portion will be about four or
five pages long -- I am sorry these are not numbered -- entitle
at the top, "Cross Reference. Summary Record of Transfer
Requests by Schools and Reasons," for the year 1970-71,
current school term. This as you will note — and let's take
a school with more than one out of zone. Tnis second one,
request to attend Brainerd Junior High School. We have one
pupil this year that requested to attend Brainerd Junior High
School from Hardy, and that was under reason "D." We had one
from Dalewood that — under reason "D." Perhaps that's
sufficient to explain that particular document.
a,
The second one is entitled "Summary Record of
Transfer Requests." Material leaves off the cross reference
by school and reason for the current year, 1970-71. This is
this is the total number. For instance, taking Brainerd Junior
High School, you will notice that there are seven requests,
five of them are under "D," one under "G," and one under
policy "H."
V T t ! W • ‘
Holden - Direct 1281
BY MR. WITT:
Q So far, Mr. Holden, there's no reference -- we
don't know the race of these students.
A So far?
Q All right.
A No, sir.
Q Excuse me.
A The balance of the sheets are records of pupil
transfers for individual schools, first one showing Alton Park
Junior High School; and that our records show one pupil out
of zone at Alton Park Junior High School, by name, George
Finley. He is zoned to Hardy Junior high School, and the reasc}
for the transfer is "E."
And, the Lala/.ce of them are individual schools.
Q All right. Mr. Holden, have we — has the
School Board avoided race in the administration of the transfer
A In the administration of transfers, yes, sir.
Q All right. In the one that you just illustrated,
would that transfer have affected desegregation in any event,
the one from Hardy — Alton Park Junior High School to Hardy?
A Mr. Witt, perhaps a little further explanation
is necessary on this particular document that we have here.
Q All right. Would you please?
A In that, as of this morning, we were asked to —
n
?
H l t H *
I ' L l
O i •
T A I L * ?
C1 .
Holden - Direct 1282
we were asked to provide this information by race. I think it
should be on record that — and is on record that our request
forms at no point asked for this kind of information. We did
respond. This, I think, had been made known previously.
We did respond that we would mane every effort to
go to other sources other than our out-of-zone request forms
and determine the races or the race of the pupils. And so,
there is, in addition on this document, the individual schools
on the right where the race is given by "D,* or "B," I
believe.
This is not from our out-of-zone records. It is
from records provided by the schools — full pupil records.
In this particular case, your question, what was
your question, sir?
Q You have a transfer from Hardy to Alton Park and
we now have determined that that transfer was for a student
who was black.
A Yes, sir.
Q And my question to you is did this transfer have
any impact upon student desegregation?
A No, sir, to my knowledge, Alton Park would have
much fewer white pupils than would Hardy.
q But, Hardy would be substantially all black, is
this correct?
Holden - Direct 1283
A Yes.
Q All right. Can you select any other examples to
J illustrate what this reflects?
A Would you repeat the question?
Q All right. Let's take an example. Look at —
you have nine requests to attend Dalewood Junior High School
which is substantially all white but with a substantial number
j of blacks from five schools. You have transfers requested fron
Hardy, nine.
Now, three of those transfers, according to this,
would be under "A."
All right. Now, Hardy is substantially all black. j
Dalewood is substantially all white. So, if it was a black
going to Dalewood, then that would increase the desegregation
of Dalewood. These transfers affect the racial composition.
Now, let's identify the races of the nine students
that requested transfer to Dalewood from Hardy.
A Well, this would appear on the individual school
listings further over in the document. And, this would show j
that only one of those nine were black, that eight were white.
Q So, you, based upon the information you have now,
you ?.re un?,ble to say whether or not these transfers desegregated
the school or did not without examining each separate transfer?
i
I 1
! ■ il
iii |I!
•_* i
Q Do you have these transfers available in court?
A Individual transfer forms?
Q Records for each one of these transfers?
A They have not been brought back to the courtroom
at this time.
Q You have had them in th e co u rtro o m and th e y can
be made a v a ila b le ?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, what k in d o f m a t e r ia l w ould s u b s ta n t ia te —
what k in d o f docum ents?
THE COURT: Reasonably think you can complete the
examination of this witness? We have gone somewhat beyond
the adjournment hour. I thought —
MR. W IT T : ( In t e r p o s in g ) I d o n 't b e lie v e I w i l l ,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: I thought we'd stay a little bit longer
this evening. Well, let's take another five minutes and then
we will adjourn, I think.
BY _M_R_.̂ WITT:
Q Mr. Holden, let's take the transfers that are on
i I f
page — the first page from Hardy to — no, from Hardy to
Dalewood Junior High School.
Now, with regard to those nine transfers, tell what
kind of documents that would have — that the Board has to
Holden - Direct 1284
Holden - Direct 1285
support your statement with reference to these transfers.
A Generally, under -- generally under these with the
exception of "H" are the ones appearing here with Hardy.
Generally with the exception of the ones -- with the exception
of *'H," we would have completed requests form properly executed
by the parent and with the principal's recommendation that he
had --- that he had — that he v.as satisfied that the facts as
stated were true. Under "H" we should have additional documentja-
tion which would be a visiting teacher report and these would
be further documented by statements from medical doctors,
psychiatrists, or others. If I could take half a second —
I believe we have one showing under "E,” and "E" should be
accompanied and will be accompanied in our files by a statement^
from the doctor. This is a child who has some particular
circumstance which would be determined by medical authorities
that would make it seem reasonable for that out-of-zone
i i
transfer. < ‘
THE COURT: Mr. Williams, apart from the policy
and the legality of the policy itself, or the transfer policies
themselves, are you making any contention that the administra
tion of the policy has been contrary to law?
MR. WILLIAMS: We may be making some contention
with -- in reference to that, if Your Honor please. Frankly,
we haven't had a chance to thoroughly investigate the pattern
u n i t f t;
Of F u A L CO! ^
A ' . S T R I C T C O I . . R ’
of transier sufficient to — sufficient to make that determina
tion.
THE COURT: Well, perhaps if we would recess the
hearing at this time, then would you be in position Monday
morning to advise the Court whether --
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You make any contention in that regard
if you do not make any contention in that regard, I assume we
could dispense with the testimony regarding the administration
or further testimony.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, as distinguished from the
question whether the nature of the policy itself --
THE COURT: (Interposing) I understand you are
contending the policy itself is not in compliance with the law
but --
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Until or unless you advise the Court
you are contending that the administration of that policy is
in violation of the law, I would think we might dispense with
this line of testimony.
MR. WITT: With that in mind, I give Mr. Williams
because he may want to use them here, material for '63-64
comparable to what we have been going over, and '66-67.
TIIE COURT: All right.
Holden - Direct 1286
H ' l H * ■ f 1 1 A . • O u f> ' HI
C W I T F u S T A f -S f ' . s i *