Coppedge v. Franklin County Board of Education Appellees' Appendix (997a-1534a)
Public Court Documents
January 1, 1967
Cite this item
-
Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Coppedge v. Franklin County Board of Education Appellees' Appendix (997a-1534a), 1967. 07d37560-ae9a-ee11-be37-00224827e97b. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/51235fe4-2776-4861-b16a-3dd6f7323206/coppedge-v-franklin-county-board-of-education-appellees-appendix-997a-1534a. Accessed April 06, 2025.
Copied!
I n the
Mnlttb (Emrt ai Kppmhz
F ourth Circuit
No. 11,794
Harold D ouglas Coppedge, a minor, et al.,
and
United States op A merica, etc.,
—v,—
Appellees,
T he F ranklin County B oard of E ducation, et al.,
Appellants.
A P PE A L FROM T H E D ISTR IC T COURT OF T H E U N IT E D STATES FOR T H E
EA STE R N D ISTR IC T OF N O R T H C AROLIN A
R A LE IG H D IV ISIO N -C IV IL
APPELLEES’ APPENDIX
J ohn D oar
Assistant Attorney General
F rank E. S chwelb
F rancis H. K ennedy
Department of Justice
Washington, D.C. 20530
Attorneys for
Plaintiff s-Intervenors-Appellees
J ack Greenberg
James M. Nabrit, III
R obert B elton
James N. F inney
10 Columbus Circle
New York, New York 10019
J. LeV onne Chambers
405% East Trade Street
Charlotte, North Carolina
Conrad O. P earson
203% East Chapel Hill Street
Durham, North Carolina
Attorneys for
Plaintiff s-Appellees
I N D E X
Volume I
PAGE
Complaint.....................................................................- 2a
Answer .............................................................. 10a
Exhibit “A ” Attached to Answer—General
Statement of Policies, etc. (Omitted) ............... 16a
Order................................................................................. 17a
Complaint in Intervention ................................. 18a
Verified Answer to Complaint in Intervention............. 26a
Transcript of Hearing on Motion for Preliminary
Injunction...................................................................... 35a
Motion to Delay Injunction........................... 150a-
Order Denying Motion for Preliminary Injunction .... 156a
Findings of Fact; Conclusions of Law; Interim
Order............................................................................ 162a
Appendix A—Plan for Compliance, etc. ........... 171a
Appendix B—Assurance of Compliance, etc..... 177a
Plaintiffs’ Response to Defendants’ Standards for
Employment, etc............................................. 180a
Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Objections to Defendants’
Standards, etc............................................. 182a
Motion to Require Defendants to Eliminate Edu
cational Disparities .................................................... 185a
Affidavit of Frank E. Schwelb in Support of Motion 186a
Appendix A—Enrollment L is t ........................... 191a
Appendix B—Enrollment List .......................... . 193a
Appendix C—Enrollment List ........................... 195a
Appendix D—Enrollment List ........................... 197a
Appendix E—Enrollment List ........................... 199a
Appendix F—Enrollment List ........................... 201a
Appendix G—Assignment of Buses .................. 203a
Motion for Further Relief ......................................... 204a
Plaintiffs’ Interrogatories .......................................... 209a
Defendants’ Answers to Plaintiffs’ Interrogatories .. 213a
Exhibit A—Enrollment Totals........................... 217a
Exhibit B—Notice of School Desegregation
Plan .............................................. 219a
Exhibit C—Letter to Parents............................. 221a
Exhibit D—Same as Exhibit B ......................... 222a
Exhibit E-l—Letter ........................... 223a
Exhibit E-2—Same as Exhibit B ..................... 224a
Exhibit E-3—Choice of School F orm ................ 225a
Defendants’ Answers to Plaintiffs’ Interrogatories .. 226a
Defendants’ Response to Plaintiffs’ Motion for Fur
ther Relief ................................................................. 228a
11
PAGE
I ll
Transcript of Hearing in Baltimore, Md., dated
April 20, 1967 ............... ....... -.................... -.......-..... 233a
Transcript of Hearing in Raleigh, N.C., dated May
9, 1967 ........................................................................ 236a
Appendix C to Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Proposed Find
ings ................... 239a
Appendix I) to Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Proposed Find
ings ........................................ -............................-..... 259a
Defendants’ Motion to Stay Execution of Opinion
and Order dated August 17,1967 ............................. 262a
Plaintiff-Intervenor’s Memorandum in Opposition to
Defendants’ Motion to Stay Execution.................. 265a
Order Denying Stay .. 271a
Deposition of Rev. Sidney Garfield Dunston ........ - 272a
Deposition of Booker Talefero Driver ................ ..... 308a
Deposition of Cecil Macon ......................................... 328a
Deposition of Sidney Winston Manley....................- 335a
Deposition of George Yance Floyd ............................ 345a
Deposition of John Echols ............ ...... -..........-........- 363a
Deposition of W. J. Champion................. ................... 370a
PAGE
Deposition of Jean Carol Satterwhite ......................- 380a
IV
Stipulated Testimony of Satterwhite, Moore, Geddie
and Dunn ................................................................... 410a
Deposition of Nellie Margaret Kearney .................. 413a
Deposition of Irene Arrington ................................... 418a
T estimony
(Hearing on Motion for Preliminary Injunction)
Government’s Witnesses
Warren W. Smith—
Direct (By Mr. Fink) .................................48a, 79a
Direct (By Mr. Chambers) ......................... 59a
Cross (By Mr. Yarborough) ........................ 83a
Redirect (By Mr. Chambers) ................ 112a, 146a
Recross (By Mr. Yarborough) .............. 137a, 148a
Redirect (By Mr. Fink) ............................... 149a
Volume II
Deposition of Rev. Robert T. Latham ...............483a, 907a
Deposition of Rev. Frank Wood ........................ 526a, 742a
Deposition of Rev. Luther Coppedge ....................... 560a
Deposition of Spencer McKinley Massenburg ___ 590a
Exhibit 1—Note ........................... ........................ 601a
Exhibit 2—Note ............................... 603a
PAGE
Deposition o f Queen E. Wortham ................................. 397a
V
Deposition of Plummer Alston, Jr. ......................... . 604a
Government’s Exhibit 1—Article in Franklin
Times.............................. 611a
Deposition of Inez Davis.............................................. 612a
Exhibit A—Form B ............................................ 623a
Deposition of Thaddeus Jerome Cheek .................... 625a
Deposition of Margaret Crudup........................ 648a
Government’s Exhibits 2 and 3—Notes.............. 667a
Government’s Exhibit 4—Letter dated August
12, 1965 ............................................................... 669a
Deposition of James T. Anderson ............................. 670a
Government’s Exhibit 1—Article from Franklin
Times................................................................... 689a
Deposition of Joseph Henry Branch ...... 690a
Exhibit 1—Letter dated June 10, 1965 ........... 705a
Exhibit 2—School Preferential Form .............. 707a
Exhibit 3—-School Preferential Form .............. 709a
Deposition of Christine Coppedge ........... ..... .... 710a, 760a
Government’s Exhibit 1—Article from Franklin
Times............................................................ 725a
Deposition of Fred Wilton Rogers ......................726a, 847a
Government’s Exhibit 1—Article from Franklin
Times................................................................... 741a
PAGE
VI
Deposition of Margaret E. Fogg ............................. 821a
Deposition of Buck Norwood ................................... 882a
Deposition of Christopher Neal ............................... 925a
Deposition of Paul C. Engrain ............................... 959a
Volume III
Deposition of Warren E. Massenburg .................... 997a
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson .................... 1014a
Deposition of William L. Stormer .......................... 1036a
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan ............................. 1096a
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey ....... 1127a
Deposition of Michael Dan Matthews .................... 1149a
Deposition of Wanda Lou Parrish ......................... 1151a
Deposition of Sheral Frazier ................................... 1153a
Deposition of Jerry Wayne Boone .......................... 1154a
Deposition of Ira Bowden ......................................... 1158a
Deposition of Mattie G. C. Harris ......................... 1163a
PAGE
Deposition o f Alice Fay Clanton ................................. 790a
Deposition o f Arnee Hartsfield .............. 1175a
Deposition of Ruby E. Perry ................................. 1183a
Deposition of Charlie White .............. 1189a
Deposition of Frank W. Rogers .............. 1194a
Deposition of Joyce Terrell .................................... 1202a
Deposition of Willie Perry ..................................... 1208a
Deposition of Dazell Walters ................................. 1214a
Deposition of Sadie M. Suitt .............. 1216a
Deposition of Joyce Griffin ..................................... 1221a
Deposition of Robert B. Fleming ......... ................ 1226a
Deposition of Alvaretta Moore ............................. 1230a
Deposition of Cunetter Bolden ............................... 1235a
Deposition of Melissa Dean ..................................... 1236a
Deposition of Ollie Strickland ............................... 1241a
Deposition of Gladys Hayes .................................. 1243a
Deposition of Robert Richardson ........................... 1244a
Deposition of Evelyn Kay Harris ........................ 1246a
Vll
PAGE
Deposition o f Mattie W. Crudup ........... ................. 1179a
Deposition o f Veronica Hawkins ............................... 1252a
V l l l
Transcript of Trial July 25-26, 1967 ......................... 1256a
Summation of Argument by Counsel ................ 1489a
(Trial July 25-26, 1967)
Plaintiffs’ Witness
Rev. Luther Coppedge—
Direct (By Mr. Schwelb) ............................. 1259a
Direct (By Mr. Chambers) ......................... 1286a
Cross (By Mr. Yarborough) ........................ 1287a
Redirect (By Mr. Schwelb) .......................... 1316a
Recross (By Mr. Yarborough) .................... 1319a
Defendants’ Witness
Warren W. Smith—
Direct (By Mr. Davis) ................................. 1330a
Cross (By Mr. Chambers) ......................... 1354a
Cross (By Mr. Schwelb) ............................. 1398a
Redirect (By Mr. Davis) ....................1436a, 1483a
Recross (By Mr. Chambers) ........................ 1470a
Recross (By Mr. Schwelb) ........................ 1477a
PAGE
I
IX
Exhibit Volume
EXHIBITS
PAGE
Government Trial Exhibit 16 (Excerpts from the
Minutes of the Franklin County Board of Educa
tion (Minutes of the Meeting of February 4,
1963) .......................................................................... 1535a
Government Trial Exhibit 20 ..................................... 1545a
Government Trial Exhibit 22 ..................................... 1547a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of Sidney
W. Manley of July 26, 1966 ..................................... 1550a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of Margaret
Crudup of July 27, 1966 ........................................ 1550a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of William
L. Stormer of May 19, 1967 ..................................... 1551a
Government Trial Exhibit 1 ..................................... 1567a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of Irene
Arrington of July 27, 1966 .................................... 1568a
Government Trial Exhibit 15 ............................. 1570a
Government Trial Exhibit 3 ..................................... 1571a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of George
V. Echols of July 26, 1966 .......... .......................... 1573a
X
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of Irene
Arrington of July 27, 1966 ..................................... 1575a
Government Trial Exhibit 6 ....................................... 1577a
Government Trial Exhibit 5 ...................................... 1578a
Government Trial Exhibit 7 ....................................... 1581a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of Rev
erend Luther Coppedge of July 28, 1966 ............ 1582a
Government Trial Exhibit 8 ....................................... 1583a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of James
T. Anderson of July 28, 1966 ................................. 1584a
Government Trial Exhibit 9 ....................................... 1586a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of Plummer
Alston, Jr. of July 27, 1966 ..................................... 1587a
Government Trial Exhibit 11 ..................................... 1588a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of Reverend
Sidney Dunston of July 26,1966 ............................. 1591a
Government Exhibit 1 to the Deposition of Fred W.
Rogers of July 28, 1966 .......................................... 1595a
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of Fred W.
Rogers of April 28, 1967 ........................................ 1596a
PAGE
Government Trial Exhibit 36 1606a
XI
Government Exhibit 3 to the Deposition of Fred W.
Rogers of April 28, 1967 ........................................ 1608a
Government Exhibit 4 to the Deposition of Arthur
L. Morgan of May 20, 1967 ......... *............... .......... 1611a
Government Exhibit 2 to the Deposition of Arthur
L. Morgan of May 20, 1967 .............................. ...... 1614a
Government Trial Exhibit 33 ..................................... 1616a
Government Trial Exhibit 35 ............. ... .............. .... 1618a
PAGE
997a
Deposition of Warren E. Massenburg
—139—
W arren E. Massenburg being first duly sworn, was
examined and testified as follow s:
Direct Examination by Mr. Kennedy:
Q. Would you state your name and your address, please!
A. Warren E. Massenburg, Route 4, Box 16, Louisburg,
N. C.
Q. What is your occupation? A. Teacher.
Q. What school do you teach at? A. Riverside High.
Q. For the record, what is your race, please? A. Seven.
Q. Perhaps you didn’t understand me. Are you a mem
ber of the white race or the Negro race? A. Negro.
Q. How many teachers and staff members are there at
- 1 4 0 -
Riverside? A. Fifty-three I think.
Q. Are any of those persons white persons? A. Yes.
Q. How many? A. Two.
Q. Is the principal a white person or a Negro? A.
Negro.
Q. Are you generally aware of the nature of the lawsuit
between various Negro plaintiffs and the government in
volving the Franklin County Board of Education? A.
Yes, I am.
Q. Were you aware that there have already been some
proceedings in this lawsuit? A. Yes.
Q. Were you aware of any of the Court orders entered
into in this lawsuit? A. Yes.
Q. When did you become aware of that? Strike that,
please. Have you ever read or been read any of the orders
that have been entered into in this case? Have you ever
998a
read or heard read any of the orders entered into in this
case? A. Yes.
Q. Did you read or did you hear! A. They were—
—141—
heard.
Q. Where did you hear that, sir? A. Mr. Yarborough
read those orders.
Q. When was that? A. I would say about two weeks
ago. We had a meeting.
Q. Where was the meeting? A. It was at Louisburg
School.
Q. Who was in attendance at the meeting? A. Pardon
me?
Q. Who was at the meeting? A. The teachers of Frank
lin County.
Q. Were there other Negro teachers there? A. Yes.
Q. And were there white teachers there, too? A. Yes.
Q. Who had the meeting called? Who called the meet
ing? A. That I don’t know.
Q. How were you informed of the meeting? A. We was
informed by the principal to meet there.
Q. In addition to the Court order that Mr. Yarborough
read, did he read anything else to you? A. Not to my
remembering.
Q. Did Mr. Yarborough make any comments, or any other
school connected official make any comments or make any
statements to the persons at the meeting? A. Yes.
—142—
Q. What topics were discussed? A. Well, there were no
topics, as I recall now, discussed.
Q. Did Mr. Yarborough talk about any of the contents
of the Court order? A. Well, he stated that—name your
school and you’d get it.
Deposition of Warren E. Massenburg
999a
Q. Was he referring to students or to teachers'? A.
Teachers.
Q. Have the teachers been afforded an opportunity to
name the school they want to teach at for next year? A.
Eepeat that please.
(Question Bead)
A. I am trying to get—see if I understand.
Q. I will ask a different question. Do you know where
you are going to teach next year? A. No.
Q. Have you applied to teach at any school for next
year? A. Yes. I filled out an application form.
Q. When did you do that, sir? A. I would say approxi
mately a month ago.
Q. Has any principle school board member or other
person acting on behalf of the School Board asked you
where you are going to teach next year? A. No.
—143—
Q. Any school Board member or person connected with
the School Board inquire where you would like to teach
next year? A. No.
Q. Did any school official tell you where the School
Board would like to have you teach next year? A. No,
not personally.
Q. Have you ever discussed the topic of integration of
the faculty of Franklin County Schools with any school
official or person acting on behalf of the School Board?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever received any correspondence from the
School Board or person acting on behalf of the School
Board regarding integration of faculty of Franklin County
Schools? A. No.
Deposition of Warren E. Massenburg
1000a
Q. To your knowledge have any of the other Negro teach
ers been approached by the School Board or members, or
persons acting on behalf of the School Board, regarding
integration of the faculty, either for the present year
or for next year? A. No. To my knowledge.
Q. To your knowledge have any of the white teachers
—144—
or staff members been approached by the School Board,
or persons acting on behalf of the School Board, regarding
integration of the faculty for the present year or for next
year? A. No, not to my knowing.
Q. In addition to the white teachers that you mentioned
were teaching at Riverside, or the persons who—white
persons who were on the staff at Riverside, do you know
of any other white persons who are teachers at predom
inantly Negro schools, on the staff of predominantly Negro
schools? A. No.
Q. To your knowledge are there any Negro teachers or
staff members at predominantly white schools? A. No.
Q. Bo you know whether there will be —strike that,
please. Have you been assigned to teach at the school for
the 1967-68 school year? A. No.
Q. Have you been assigned to teach at a school. To
your knowledge have any of the teachers, white or Negro,
been assigned to the school—- A. No.
Q. For the 1967-68 school year? A. No.
—145—
Q. At the meeting of the teachers that you referred to
previously did Mr. Yarborough, or any other official or
person acting on behalf of the Board, discuss any of the
other contents of the Court order, in addition to faculty
integration? A. To my knowledge I don’t recall any
discussion on it.
Deposition of Warren E. Massenburg
1 0 0 1 a
Q. Were any statements made concerning the freedom
of choice for the students of Franklin County! A. At
that meeting?
Q. Yes, sir. A. No, not at that meeting.
Q. Have you come in contact or observed the white
persons who are on the staff at Riverside? Do you know
them? A. Yes.
Q. Have they had any disciplinary problems with the
students? A. I wouldn’t think so.
Q. Have they indicated any problems with other mem
bers of the staff and faculty at Riverside? A. No.
Q. At this meeting which you were in attendance was
the topic of integration of the faculty of Franklin County
Schools for the 1967-68 school year discussed? Was it men-
—146—
tioned? A. To my remembering it wasn’t much discus
sion. It was merely Mr. Yarborough read the order.
Q. Does the School Board of Franklin County pass on
or assign the teachers of Franklin County to the various
schools? A. Well, I believe they plan—we have the ad
visory board at the school. They are recommended to them
by the principal and passed on to the superintendent and
the Board there.
Q. Does the School Board have a hand in assigning or
approving the assigning of teachers?
Mr. Yarborough: What was that question?
Mr. Kennedy: Does the School Board participate
in the assigning or the passing on the assigning of
the teachers to the schools of Franklin County?
A. That I would be unable to answer.
Deposition of Warren E. Massenburg
1002a
Deposition of Warren E. Massenburg
By Mr. Kennedy.
Q. Do you know whether any Negro or white staff or
faculty member has ever rejected an assignment to a
school where their race would be in a minority? A. Not
to my knowing.
Q. I f the School Board assigned you to a school in the
Franklin County system, that is, a predominantly white
school, would you accept or reject the assignment?
—147—
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form of the
question.
Mr. Kennedy: (To Witness) Proceed.
A. Yes.
By Mr. Kennedy.
Q. Yes, you would accept, or yes, you would reject it?
A. Well, I would accept it.
Q. As far as you know have there been meetings of
teachers of the Franklin County system, in addition to
the one where Mr. Yarborough talked, where the topic
of integration of the faculty has been discussed? A. Not
to my knowledge.
Q. Have you or any other Negro teacher or staff member
ever been approached by a member of the Board or Mr.
Smith, Mr. Warren Smith, the superintendent, regarding
possible integration of the faculty of the schools of Frank
lin County? A. No, I haven’t.
Q. Do you know of any Negro or white faculty member
or staff member or principal who has been approached
by Mr. Smith, a board member, or other school official?
A. No.
1003a
Deposition of Warren E. Massenburg
Q. Regarding integration of faculty in the schools! A.
No.
-148-
Q. Are any of the members—what is the race of the
members of the school advisory committee that you men
tioned previously? Are the members of the school advisory
committee white persons or Negro persons at Riverside?
A. What? This advisory board?
Q. Yes, sir. A. They are Negro.
Q. How long have you been teaching in the Franklin
County system? A. Twelve years.
Q. What schools have you taught at! A. I taught at
Mitchell Elementary School and Riverside.
Q. Do the members of the school advisory committee of
any of the schools that you taught at—strike that, please.
What has been the race of the members of the school ad
visory committee at the schools in Franklin County where
you have taught, in addition to Riverside? A. Negro.
Q. Has there ever been a white person who was a mem
ber of the school advisory board where you taught? A.
No.
Mr. Kennedy: Your witness.
—149—̂
Direct Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Massenburg, I believe that previously the ad
visory committee used to be called the District School
Committee, didn’t it? A. I would think so.
Q. And last year or at the end of the 1965 school year
they changed the name to advisory committee? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know why they changed the name? A. No.
1004a
Q. I believe, also, that in years previously you signed
a contract designating that you had agreed to teach at
Riverside School? A. Right.
Q, I believe now you sign a different contract? A.
Yes.
Q. I believe that this year you signed a contract that
was unit wide and it doesn’t designate any school? A. I
would think so. I am not sure. I know it was different.
I don’t know just how it was stated.
Q. It didn’t designate any schools to your knowledge?
A. No.
Q. I believe it was something like you had agreed to
teach in the Franklin County school system. A. Right.
—150—
Q. You don’t know about the change or if there was a
change in the law regarding the district school commit
tees at the previous legislature, do you? A. No.
Q. Regarding the authority or responsibility of the
district school committees? A. No.
Q. You indicated there were two white teachers at River
side. What are they teaching? A. One is the librarian
and one is the speech therapist.
Q. The speech therapist. Is that a man or woman?
A. Woman.
Q. Is she there all day? A. Yes.
Q. And is she working in the elementary or high school?
A. Elementary.
Q. The librarian—is she working in the high school or
elementary library? A. Well, I would say both.
Q. Why would you say both? A. She is working in
both.
Deposition of Warren E. Massenburg
1005a
Q. Oh, I see. Do you have two libraries or one library!
A. Well, I would say two. We have two rooms, one
designated for the elementary department and the other
—151—
for the high school.
Q. I see. Are they both in the same building! A. Yes.
Q. And one libriarian takes care of both libraries? A.
Yes.
Q. Do you have anyone else working in the libraries!
A. They have two aides working with her.
Q. Are they Negro or white? A. Negro.
Q. You stated that you taught in the seventh grade? A.
Yes.
Q. Is your building connected to the high school building ?
A. No.
Q. Where are your classrooms? A. Well, the best I
can say is in the elementary building.
Q. Do you have other elementary classrooms in some
other buildings? A. Yes.
Q. What are they? A. Well, they are split up because
they have—now, one building has got part of the eighth
grade and part of the fourth grade and the second grade,
and they are just split up, and it is hard to say.
—152—
Q. I see. Do you have any classrooms in the gymnato-
rium? A. Yes, we have a gym class there.
Q. Do you have any elementary classes there? A. No,
not in the auditorium. We have a classroom downstairs.
Q. In the same building? A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any classrooms, elementary classrooms,
in the agricultural building? A. Well, it is hard to say.
Deposition of Warren E. Massenburg
1006a
The building is altogether and there are elementary classes
built onto the building.
Q. I see. But they are all there in one structure, one
continuous building? A. Yes.
Q. And you have some elementary classes in the build
ing? A. Yes.
Q. Now, the agricultural building is a separate building
from the gymnatorium building? A. Yes.
Q. And the gymnatorium is separate from the regular
elementary classroom department? A. Well, it’s so many
buildings it is hard to distinguish.
Q. But there is another building there called the ele
mentary building? A. Yes.
—153—
Q. Where is the library? A. In the high school build
ing.
Q. So the elementary students go to the high school
department for the library? A. Yes.
Q. Do they also have the—the study period over there
in the high school building? A. The elementary?
Q. Yes. A. They don’t go to a study period.
Q. When do they go to the library? A. They are sched
uled at various hours.
Q. Do you have covered walkways connecting those
buildings? A. No.
Q. Do you coach any athletics? A. No.
Q. Do you conduct any other extracurricular activities?
A. Other than physical education for the class.
Q. For the seventh grade class? A. Right.
Q. Do you recall what was on this form where you indi
cated your choice of school for next year? A. No, I do
not.
Deposition of Warren E. Massenburg
1007a
Deposition of Warren E. Massenburg
—154—
Q. Did you receive anything else besides that form for
indicating your choice of school? A. What? For another
year?
Q. Yes. A. No.
Q. You just got that form? A. That’s right, applica
tion form.
Q. Did you receive any other written communication
from the superintendent in reference to desegregation of
the teachers in the schools for next year? A. What? Per
sonally?
Q. Personally. A. No.
Q. Did you receive anything last year as to desegre
gation of the schools for the 1966-67 school year? A. I
don’t recall receiving nothing personally.
Q. Do you recall any meeting by Mr. Smith or anyone
connected with the School Board in reference to desegre
gation o f teachers for the 1966-67 school year? A. No,
I do not.
Q. Yon stated that you first came in the system in the
elementary school called— A. Mitchell.
Q. Mitchell? A. Yes.
, —155—
Q. When did that school close? A. Let’s see. I can’t
recall the year right off. I believe it was—I can’t recall
the year now.
Q. What happened so far as your job in the system is
concerned when it closed? A. What? When Mitchell’s
closed?
Q. Yes. A. Oh, we was consolidated with Riverside.
Q. You were consolidated with Riverside? A. Yes.
Q. And the teachers were assigned over to Riverside?
A. Yes.
1008a
Q. Did you have to make application for Riverside or
they just assign you there! A. They just assigned me.
Q. Is there a personnel supervisor or assitant superin-
intendent in this school system! A. I believe you call
Mrs. Horne somewhere in there.
Q. Mrs. Horne. Did she ever talk with you in reference
to desegregation of teachers in this school system! A.
No.
Q. Did Mr. Smith, the superintendent, ever talk to you
in reference to desegregation of teachers in the school
—156—
system? A. Are you speaking of me personally?
Q. Yes. A. No.
Mr. Chambers: I have no further questions.
Cross-Examination by Mr. Davis:
Q. Mr. Massenburg, you say you have been teaching in
Franklin County for approximately twelve years, and you
started out at Mitchell Elementary School? A. Right.
Q. And then when that was—when they closed that
school, you went to Riverside? A. Yes.
Q. And when the Mitchell School was closed, you were
under contract at that time to teach with the Franklin
County school system? A. Yes.
Q. Of course, the year the Mitchell School was closed
you taught that year at Riverside? A. Yes, I was there
the fall of that year.
Q. Yes, that is what I mean. You were under contract
and just moved over? A. Yes.
Q. Now, do you know a Mrs. Holt that teaches out at
—157—
Deposition of Warren E. Massenburg
Bunn School? A. No, I do not.
1009a
Q. You do not know her? A. No.
Q. Do you know a Mrs. Gertie Jones? A. Yes.
Q. And you know that she was teaching up at Louisburg
School until the time she was taken ill? A. Yes.
Q. You knew that. Now, do you recall in August of
1966 receiving a letter from Mr. Smith, the Superintendent
of Schools, informing the teachers of Franklin County that
if any of them desired to change schools from the ones
they were assigned to teach in, that they could do so,
that they could make their applications and they would
be honored if at all possible? A. In August of 1966?
Q. Yes. A. I don’t recall now.
Q. You are not saying you didn’t get it, are you? A.
No, I am not saying I didn’t get it. I am saying I do not
recall.
Q. Do you remember in August of 1966 about a meeting
that was held at Riverside School, where Mr. Chambers
was in attendance, where Mr. Schwelb of the United States
—1 5 8 -
Justice Department was present, and Mr. Yarborough at
tended, and the School Board, to explain to the people in
attendance certain provisions of the interim order that was
entered in this case? Do you know anything about that
meeting? A. When was that?
Q. In August of 1966. A. I am trying to recollect. I
know there was a meeting concerning the students, I
thought, but I don’t recall.
Q. Did you attend the meeting? A. I don’t recall those
names that you recall now.
Q. Have you attended any meeting other than the one at
Louisburg School? A. The only one that I can recall is
the one at Louisburg.
Deposition of Warren E. Massenburg
1010a
Q. Now, were you in attendance at the P T A meeting at
Riverside that took place several weeks go? A. Yes.
Q. Where Mr. Yarborough explained to everybody
present the freedom of choice plan? A. Yes.
Q. For Franklin County? A. Yes.
Q. And, of course, at that time he told the people in
attendance that anybody could choose any school in Frank-
— 159—
lin County they desired to attend? A. Yes.
Q. And their request would be granted? A. Yes.
Q. That is what Mr. Yarborough said. A. That’s right,
because I thought he was referring to students at that
time.
Q. Yes, sir. Now, the speech therapist that you told
Mr. Chambers about—her name is Mrs. Atchison? A.
Yes.
Q. Atkinson or Atchison? A. Atchison, I believe that
is correct.
Q And she also teaches a class in high school English,
doesn’t she? A. Yes.
Q. She teaches that. How many students does she have
in that class, do you know? A. I don’t know.
Q. Has she been teaching that class the whole year?
A. I don’t think so.
Q. Do you know when she started? A. No, I do not,
but I don’t think she taught a full year.
Q. And you say there are two libraries at Riverside?
A. No.
— 160—
Q. Two libraries? A. Oh, yes.
Q. And one librarian? A. Yes.
Q. And I believe Mrs. Edward Smith is the librarian?
A. That’s right.
Deposition of Warren E. Massenburg
1 0 1 1 a
Q. I believe you told either Mr. Kennedy or Mr. Cham
bers that you do not coach any of the athletic teams of
Riverside. A. Other than physical education.
Q. Physical education for your own class'? A. That’s
right.
Q. Now, I believe the School Board has a supervisor
for teachers by the name of Mrs. Davis, Mrs. Mabel Davis?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is her race? A. Pardon me?
Q. Is she white or colored? A. She is Negro.
Q. And don’t you know that she is the elementary super
visor for all schools in the County? A. No, I didn’t.
Q. You don’t know that. Do you know Mrs. Clayton?
A. Yes, I do.
— 161—
Q. Don’t you know that she is the supervisor for all
high schools in Franklin County? A. Yes.
Q. Let’s see, Mr. Massenburg, aren’t you the brother-
in-law of Mr. Otis Gill? A. Yes.
Q. When did you first talk to Mr. Kennedy about this
case? A. Well, the first time I seen Mr. Kennedy was this
week.
Q. When was that? A. Last night he summonsed me
here.
Q. And where did you see him here? A. At my home.
Q. At your home. Did he come out there? A. Yes.
Q. Was anybody with him? A. No.
Q. Was anybody else present at your home -when he
talked to you? A. Yeah, my family.
Q. And can you give me their names. A. Mrs. Selma
Massenburg.
Deposition of Warren E. Massenburg
1012a
Q. And she is your wife? A. Yes.
— 162—
Q. Thelma? A. Selma.
Q. Selma. I ’m sorry. And who else was present? A.
My two daughters, Juanita and Denise Massenburg.
Q. Are they in school? A. No.
Q. How old are they, Mr. Massenburg? A. One is four
and one is two.
Q. And nobody else, other than Mr. Kennedy and your
self and your family was present? A. No.
Q. Were you expecting Mr. Kennedy to come to your
house last night? A. No.
Q. Had anybody told you prior to your talking with him
last night that you might be a witness in this case? A.
No.
Q. You didn’t contact Mr. Kennedy yourself, did you?
A. No, sir.
Q. He contacted you? A. Eight.
Q. Now, Mr. Massenburg, I believe you told Mr. Cham
bers that you had made your application for next school
year—isn’t that right, sir? A. Yes.
— 163—
Q. And you indicated on the application that your
preference for teaching, for a teaching assignment, for
next year was at Eiverside? A. Right.
Q. When did you make that application, Mr. Massenburg?
A. I don’t recall the date, but I would say approximately
a month ago.
Q. Was it before or after the meeting that was held at
Louisburg? A. I would think it was before. I am not
sure.
Q. You got the application form, I believe, from Mr.
Harris? A. Yes.
Deposition of Warren E. Massenburg
1013a
Q. The principal, and of course you turned it in to
Mr. Harris! A. Yes.
Q. And you don’t recall the date that the application
was made! A. No, I do not.
Q. Mr. Massenburg, you know, don’t you, sir, that this
year the Louisburg School administration has been con
ducting an inservice training program for sixth and seventh
grade teachers! A. Yes.
Q. For the County? A. Yes.
—164—
Q. And do you attend those meetings? A. Yes.
Q. Where are they held sir ? A. At Louisburg.
Q. At Louisburg School. And, of course, all teachers
in the County who teach in the sixth and seventh grades
attend those meetings? A. They are supposed to.
Q. Both races were present? A. Yes.
Q. And, Mr. Massenburg, as I understand your testi
mony, you have—for next year you have applied for
Riverside School and expect to get that assignment? A.
Yes.
Deposition of Warren E. Massenburg
Mr. Davis: All right, sir. I don’t think I have
any more questions. Thank you.
Mr. Kennedy: No further questions.
Witness excused.
1014a
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
—165—
E dith A lston A nderson, being first duly sworn, was ex
amined and testified as follows:
Direct Examination by Mr. Kennedy:
Q. State your name and address, please. A. Edith Al
ston Anderson, 204 South Main Street, Louisburg. That is
a mailing address.
Mr. Yarborough: That is your husband’s barber
shop?
A. That’s right.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. What is your age ? A. Thirty-four.
Q. For the record, what is your race, please? A. Negro.
Q. What is your occupation? A. Teacher.
Q. Where do you teach? A. Gethsemane.
Q. At Bunn? Gethsemane in Bunn? In the Town of
Bunn? A. That’s right.
Q. Is there another school in the Town of Bunn? A.
Yes.
Q. And the name of that school is what? A. I think it is
Bunn High School.
—166—
Q. How long have you been teaching? A. Altogether?
Q. In the Franklin County system? A. About six and a
half years.
Q. What do you teach? A. Music.
Q. What is the race of the majority of the teachers at
Gethsemane? A. Negro, the majority.
1015a
Q. Are there any white teachers there? A. Not a
teacher.
Q. Any white persons in positions of authority! A. We
have a part-time nurse. I guess you would call it part time.
Q. How many days does she work at Gethsemane ?A.I
think it is two. I believe it is two. I can’t state that as a
fact, but it is either two or three. Maybe it is one. I believe
she comes on Wednesday, because that is the day the speech
therapist is there.
Q. So you are saying one day? A. I am almost positive
it is one day.
Q. Do the teachers and staff members at Gethsemane
ever attend faculty staff meetings? A. At the school?
—167—
Q. Any place? A. Yeah.
Q. Where are some of these meetings held? A. Here.
And we attend one at Louisburg High School, and at Riv
erside High School. That is most of them.
Q. When was the meeting held that you attended at Lou-
isburg? A. I think it was Tuesday before last. There was
a—Tuesday before the last Tuesday we had a TY program,
and we have been out of the program—it’s three weeks ago
I think.
Q. Who was there? A. Who?
Q. Well, what class or groups of persons? A. Well, I
think that was just about everybody, all the teachers in the
County I believe.
Q. Any school officials or School Board members or per
sons representing the School Board? A. Yes.
Q. Who was there? A. I remember Mr. Baker. That is
the only one I knew there, because he is the representative
from Bunn. I remember he was there.
Q. Was Mr. Smith there? A. Yes.
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
1016a
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
—168—
Q. The Superintendent. Who spoke at the meeting? A.
Lawyer Yarborough spoke, and Mr. Smith.
Q. Are you aware of a lawsuit involving certain Negro
parties in Franklin County, the United States Government
on one hand and the Franklin County Board of Education
on the other? A. Yes.
Q. Did you know any witnesses who testified at any of
the hearings in this case? A. Now, my husband testified
at a hearing.
Q. When was that? A. It was last summer I believe.
But, now, I don’t know whether that involved the incident
—I am not quite positive about which, you know.
Q. You don’t know what he said? A. No, no. I don’t
know.
Q. Have you had occasion to become aware of the con
tents of an order entered into by the Court in this case?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you become aware of that? A. It’s been
read to me twice and I have read, you know, excerpts in
the newspaper.
Q. When was the first time the contents of the order
—169—
were read to you? A. It was about—maybe about two
months ago, or maybe about three months ago, or some
where in that. I have a poor memory, but—
Q. Who read it to you? A. I can’t ask him ? . . . It seemed
to me it was either read or explained at a P T A meeting
about three months ago.
Q. When was the second time that you—- A. At the
meeting that I mentioned at Louisburg High School, which
was about three weeks ago.
Q. Who read the order to you? A. Lawyer Yarborough
read that, also.
1017a
Q. .Do you remember any statements made by Mr. Yar
borough concerning integration of the faculty, of the teach
ers of Franklin County, for the current year or for the
1967-68 school year? A. You mean in relation to the Court
order? I could tell you the gist of it. I mean. You
wouldn’t—
Q. Just the topic. Was the topic mentioned or discussed?
A. To my knowledge, yes. Yes, it was.
Q. Yes, it was? A. I mean that was. Yes, it was.
Q. Was there a discussion of the topic of integration of
the faculty? A. At the same meeting?
—170—
Q. Yes. A. Now, what do you mean by discussion? You
mean did we—
Q. Was there a discussion of the topic in addition to the
reading of the order? A. Yes, because there were some
questions asked, and that would constitute a discussion.
Q. In the discussion was there mention made that the
School Board desired faculty integration in Franklin Coun
ty? A. Desired? I don’t know whether that particular
term was used or not.
Q. Did Mr. Yarborough or any other person speaking on
behalf of the School Board request that teachers and staff
persons integrate the faculty at the various schools in
Franklin County? A. Did they request it?
Q. Did Mr. Yarborough or the Board request it, yes. A.
Now, the order was read and it was stated several times
that wherever you made your application it would be con
sidered, you know, along—it would be the same procedure
as at any other school, you know. But I don’t know exactly
what you mean by request.
Mr. Yarborough: I object to the form of the ques
tion.
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
1018a
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
—171—
By Air. Kennedy:
Q. Has any person acting on behalf of the School Board
personally or individually discussed the matter of faculty
with you! A. No.
Q. To your knowledge has the School Board or a person
acting on behalf of the School Board discussed the matter
of faculty integration either for the present year or for
the coming school year with any other Negro teachers in
Franklin County? A. No, not to my knowledge.
Q. To your knowledge, again, has the topic of faculty
integration been discussed by an official of the School Board
with any white teacher or any staff member of the Frank
lin County system? A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Have you received any written communication from
the School Board or a person acting on behalf of the School
Board— A. No.
Q. Discussing the topic of faculty integration for the
1967-68 school year? A. No.
Q. To your knowledge has any Negro teacher or staff
member received a written communication from a represen
tative of the School Board regarding faculty integration
—172—
for the 1967-68 school year? A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Do you know whether there are any Negro teachers
teaching, or Negro staff members employed at predomi
nantly white schools in Franklin County? A. Yes, there is
a—now, Franklinton is not a part of this.
Mr. Yarborough: Not for the purposes of this
deposition.
1019a
A. It is not. Well, there is one, a librarian or an assistant
librarian, at Louisbnrg High School and one at Bunn, or
was one at Louisburg.
By Mr. Kennedy:
Q. I see. Are there any—do you know whether there are
any white teachers or staff members at any predominantly
Negro schools? A. Yes. There is the speech therapist,
I believe, and she is white.
Q. To your knowledge have these Negro teachers at
white schools or white teachers at the predominantly Ne
gro schools experienced any unusual difficulty executing
their duties? A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Are teachers in Franklin County employed by way of
contract? A. Heretofore, yes.
—173—
Q. Are you currently under a contract? A. For this
year?
Q. Yes, ma’am. A. Right.
Q. With whom do you have a contract to teach at Geth-
semane? A. With the Franklin County Board of Educa
tion.
Q. To your knowledge does the Franklin County Board
of Education approve the contracts for the teachers em
ployed? A. To my knowledge they do.
Q. If you were to receive a contract from the Board of
Education assigning you to execute your teaching duties
at a predominantly white school, would you accept such a
contract or decline it? A. I would probably accept it.
Q. Have you ever had a personal contact or discussion
with a representative of the Board of Education of Frank
lin County regarding faculty integration for the present
1966-67 school year? A. No, I have not, no.
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
1 0 2 0 a
Q, To your knowledge has any Negro teacher or staff
member had a personal contact with a member or a rep
resentative of the Board of Education regarding faculty
integration for the 1966-67 school year? A. Not that I
—174—
know of.
Q. Can you remember ever having been asked person
ally by Mr. Warren Smith, the Superintendent of Franklin
County Board of Education, or any other person acting on
behalf of the Board of Education to teach in a predomi
nantly white school? A. No.
Q. To your knowledge has any Negro teacher or staff
member ever been asked by Mr. Smith, or any other person
representing the School Board, to execute professional
duties at a predominantly white school? A. Not to my
knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy: No further questions.
Direct Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mrs. Anderson, I believe you say you teach music?
A. That’s right.
Q. At Gethsemane. How many classes do you teach? A.
There are eight classes, but they are all divided into two
parts, except for one is divided into three. You want to
know how many classes now?
Q. Yes. A. There must be ten.
Q. Ten music classes. Is that per week? A. Per week.
—175—
Q. What grades are involved? A. Two through eight.
Q. Are they all taught in the same room? A. No. In
the same room?
Q. Yes. A. No.
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
1021a
Q. How many different rooms do you use? A. Now,
occasionally we do begin them somewhere else, but that is
so seldom. They are all taught in their own classrooms.
Q. In their own classrooms? A. Yes.
Q. Do you teach at any other school besides Gfethsemane?
A. No.
Q. Gfethsemane is a union school, grades one through
twelve? A. One—that’s right.
Q. Is Bunn High School also a union school? A. I be
lieve it is.
Q. Grades one through twelve? A. Yes, that’s right.
Q. Do you have a choir at Gethsemane? A. Yes, we do.
Q. Is there a choir at Eiverside? A. Riverside? I am
—176—
sure it is. Yes, Well yeah, I’m sure it is. They had a
Christmas program, yes, so they have a choir.
Q. Is there at choir at Perry? A. Yes.
Q. Is there a choir at Youngsville Elementary? A. I
really don’t know.
Q. Do you know whether there is a choir at Cedar Street?
A. I don’t know that either.
Q. Do you participate in—strike that, please. Is there a
contest between the various choirs of predominantly Negro
schools in Franklin County each year? A. Not now.
Q. Did there use to be? A. Some years ago.
Q. Were any white schools participating in this contest?
A. Then?
Q. Yes. A. No.
Q. Do you know whether there are choirs at the predomi
nantly white schools in Franklin County? A. I couldn’t
say.
Q. Do you ever at Gethsemane participate in the choir
festival in Franklin County? A. Well, when I came to
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
1 0 2 2 a
Gethsemane, they didn’t have the County choir festival,
—177—
except the district, and we don’t go to the district.
Q. Were any white schools in this district? A. In the
district festival?
Q. Yes. A. Now, I didn’t go so I don’t know. I don’t
think so. We didn’t participate.
Q. Do you know anything about the choir festival that
is to be held here in Franklin County among the various
schools? A. This year?
Q. Yes. A.No.
Q. Has Gethsemane been invited to participate in such
a festival this year? A. This year?
Q. Yes. A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. You are not familiar with a choir festival in which
Edward Best will participate? A. This year?
Q. Yes. A. No.
Q. You are not familiar with a choir festival in which
Louisburg will participate? A. No, not this year.
—178—
Q. Have you received any communication from Mr. Fox,
the principal of Louisburg High School, in reference to a
choir festival? A. I haven’t, no.
Q. And you are the choir director of the choir at Geth
semane? A. Yes.
Q. You indicate that there have been several staff meet
ings at Riverside High School? A. That’s right.
Q. What teachers participated in those staff meetings?
A. The teachers from Cedar—well, the Negro teachers. I
don’t know about—I could call all the schools.
Q. No white teachers are there? A. The supervisors are
there occasionally.
Q. And that is the supervisors of white high schools? A.
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
1023a
Mrs. Clayton and Mrs. Holmes and Mr. Smith sometimes,
and Mr. Martin sometimes.
Q. I see. Now, none of the teachers from Louisburg
High School came to these meetings? A. No.
Q. Or none from Edward Best? A. No.
Q. Or any of the white schools in this district? A. No,
—179—
not at the ones that I attended.
Q. What about the meetings you attended here at the
Board? You said you attended some meetings here. A.
Yes.
Q. You were referring to the Board of Education build
ing? A. Yes.
Q. Right here in this room? A. Yes.
Q. What teachers participated in those? A. Now, those
meetings were integrated most of the time. The meetings
here in this room.
Q. What do you mean by most of the time? A. I don’t
know—well, now, I don’t know about last year, but the ones
I have attended have been.
Q. How many have you attended here this year? A. I
don’t think I came to but—well, now, the meetings that
are held in this room are specialized meetings.
Q. Meetings for the music teachers? A. Yes.
Q. And special education fields? A. Right. And occa
sionally—the one I attended, there was a salesman for
some school equipment.
Q. And you attended one meeting then this year here,
or did you attend others ? A. To my memory—to my mem-
—180—
ory that is the only one I believe.
Q. All right. Now, you indicate you also met at Louis
burg? A. That’s correct.
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
1024a
Q. How many times did you go to Louisburg? A. We
have only been there once this year.
Q. Is that the meeting you were referring to where Mr.
Yarborough-— A. That is the one.
Q. Read the order of the Court? A. That’s right.
Q. How many times have you been to Riverside this
year? A. About maybe three times.
Q. You have met at Riverside three times in a—-in staff
meetings? A. You’d maybe make that twice. I don’t at
tend all of them really, but we have been at least two times.
Q. You stated that these were meetings in which only the
Negro teachers participated? A. Yes.
Q. But you did say that the supervisors were there? A.
That’s right.
Q. And Mr. Smith sometimes? A. That’s correct.
—181—
Q. You indicated, also, that you had attended two meet
ings in which the Court order in this case had been dis
cussed. A. That’s correct.
Q. I think the first meeting you indicated was three
months ago? A. About like that. I don’t remember ex
actly when it was.
Q. At that meeting you indicated that Mr. Yarborough
also discussed the Court order? A. That is true.
Q. Did he discuss at that time integration of the teach
ers? If you remember. A. I don’t remember really.
Q. The only meeting you can recall now at which integra
tion of teachers was discussed was the one at the Louis-
burk High School about three weeks ago? A. About three
weeks ago.
Q. Where do you have chapel programs at Gethsemane?
A. In the gymnatorium—I guess you might call it. You
mean assembly?
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
1025a
Q. Assembly for the school students. A. Yes.
Q. That is in the gymnatorium? A. That’s right.
— 182—
Q. Where do you eat there? A. In the same building.
Q. In the gymnatoriumf A. In the gymnatorium.
Q. Where is the library there? A. The library is housed
in a mobile unit in between two wings of the building.
Q. Is that the elementary school library or the high
school library? A. They are combined.
Q. You have two mobile units or one? A. Well, it’s
two mobile units put together but it is only under one roof,
you might say.
Q. Are the high school students and the elementary stu
dents in the same library? A. In the same building.
Q. So they separate them according to the mobile unit,
or in the same— A. Well, there is a partition, or some
thing like that, that separates it.
Q. Tha separates it? A. That’s right.
Q. How long has that mobile unit been there? A. Oh,
it’s been there—let’s see. Well, we were expecting two at
— 183—
the same time—the kitchen unit and the library unit, and
the library unit came first I believe. I ’m not sure.
Q. Has it been there more than a year? A. Oh, no, not
more than a year.
Q. You say you were expecting a kitchen unit, also? A.
We were expecting them at the same time.
Q. A kitchen unit and the library unit? A. That’s right.
Q. And you have still not received the kitchen unit? A.
We have both of them.
Q. You now have both? A. That’s right.
Q. What is the kitchen unit used for? Is that a dining
area also or just for the preparation of food? A. Just
for the preparation of food.
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
1 0 2 6 a
Q. Oh, I see. So food is prepared in the mobile kitchen
unit and carried to the gymnatorium? A. Yeah, but, now,
I—I guess you might say they are under one roof.
Q. But they are in separate buildings? A. Yeah, they
are in separate buildings.
Q. Do you have a teachers’ lounge at Gethsemane? A.
Yes.
Q. Where is that located! A. Where? In the main build
ing. I mean—
—-184—
Q. In the main building? A. Un-hunh.
Q. Is that a lounge for the elementary teachers or for
the high school teachers? A. It’s for everybody.
Q. Are you a member of any teacher organization? A.
I ’m sorry you asked that because I believe I told you that
I was before, but I am not this year. This is the first
year in thirteen that I have not been.
Q. You are not? A. No.
Q. You did participate previously? A. For all thirteen
years.
Q. And what was that organization? A. The N E A and
N C T A and the F C T A.
Q. Did you have a branch of the N C T A for Franklin
County? A. Well, that is the F C T A, the Franklin
County.
Q. The Franklin County? A. Yes.
Q. Did you have teachers in that organization from
Franklinton as well as from Franklin County? A. Yes.
Q. And I believe that these were only Negro teachers?
A. That’s correct.
—185—
Q. I don’t believe you stated how long you had been
teaching in Franklin County. A. Six and a half years.
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
1027a
Q. Have you been at Gethscmane all that time? A. All
that time.
Mr. Chambers: I have no further questions.
Cross-Examination by Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Mrs. Anderson, you, I believe, testified that you went
to several meetings at Riverside with Mr. Smith and others
—Mr. Earl Martin. Now, they were in E S E A meetings?
A. Oh, yeah, that’s right.
Q. And only qualifying schools under E S E A in this
County? A. I believe you are right.
Q. And Perry’s is a qualifying school—you know that?
A. Yes.
Q. And Riverside? A. Yes.
Q. And Gethsemane? A. Yes.
Q. And they are the only qualifying schools under
E S E A, aren’t they? A. Now, I couldn’t answer that but
I am sure you are right.
—186—
Q. You don’t know, but you don’t deny that they are the
only qualifying schools under E S E A? A. That is true.
Q. And those meetings over there concerned E S E A
programs at Riverside? A. Now, some of them were and
some of them were this—the local, the branch of the F C T A
meetings, also.
Q. Over at Riverside? A. That you attended, that’s
correct.
Q. And that is a professional teachers organization? A.
That’s correct.
Q. And you are not a member, I believe you said, this
year, for the first time in thirteen years? A. That’s cor
rect.
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
1028a
Q. And, of course, you know that there are considerable
discussions—strike that, please. Of course, that is an or
ganization, voluntary organization of teachers. The Board
of Education doesn’t require anybody to belong to this
or— A. No.
Q. Or to the N C T A and A. No. To my knowledge.
Q. And all of that is voluntary. You joined. For the
twelve years that you joined you joined voluntarily? A.
I did.
—187—
Q. Paid your dues, whatever they were, and attended the
meetings? A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. And so far as you know the Board of Education has
nothing to do with whether you join or do not join? A. I
don’t think so.
Q. And you know Mr. Earl Martin is the County Director
of the E S E A? A. That’s correct.
Q. And the library is in a large mobile unit at Perry’s?
A. I don’t know about Perry’s.
Q. At Gethsemane. I beg your pardon. A. That’s right.
Q. And, of course, those units are electrically heated and
airconditioned? A. That’s correct.
Q. And you do not have airconditioning in your regular
school buildings? A. No, not at all.
Q. So far as you know no school buildings in the County
has it in the regular buildings?
Mr. Kennedy: If you know.
A. Doesn’t Riverside have one in the office?
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. I mean in the classrooms. A. No, not in the class
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
rooms.
1029a
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
—188—
Q. Now, you are a public school music teacher? A,
That’s correct.
Q. And I will ask you if you don’t know that the only
schools in the County this year which have full-time public
school music directors are Biverside, Gethsemane, and
Perry’s? A. I don’t know. I mean I don’t know whether
they have full-time music teachers at any of the others.
Q. Those three schools do have? A. They do.
Q. You have gone to meetings with those full-time public
school music teachers? A. They do.
Q. Now, Mr. Kennedy or Mr. Chambers asked you about
whether any members of the County Board of Education
had ever contacted you regarding faculty integration. You
know Mr. Smith, of course? A. Yes.
Q. And you know Mr. Horace Baker. You say he is a
member? A. Yes.
Q. And you know me, of course? A. Yes.
Q. And have you ever contacted or sought to contact any
of those people regarding faculty integration? A. No, I
—189—
haven’t.
Q. Or contacted anyone connected with the Franklin
County Board of Education? A. No, I have not.
Q. Your dealings with the Franklin County Board of
Education have always been very professional and very
cordial, haven’t they? A. Yes, they have.
Q. And all the people connected with the County admin
istration board have always been cordial? A. They were
with me. They have been.
Q. And you have been cordial with them? A. I have
tried to be.
Q. And you have never, of course, contacted—strike
1030a
that question, please. You have never asked that you be
permitted to teach in any school but Gethsemane, in the
Franklin County school system— A. That’s correct.
Q. Have you? A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, with reference to you going to the students’
rooms for your public school music, I will ask you if you
don’t know the State Board of Education has recommended
that the teachers go to the students’ rooms rather than have
the students go to a separate room? A. Do I know they
—190—
they recommend it? I have never read it as such.
Q. You have never been told that? A. It is just more
convenient, more or less. The reason we do it.
Q. For whom, the pupils or the teacher? A. For both I
guess.
Q. It works out very satisfactory to you? A. Well,
we don’t have a separate room, anyway, up there to have
it in.
Q. Well, it works out very satisfactory for you to go to
the rooms? A. Well, now sometimes, but sometimes we
have to carry charts and things.
Q. That is your inconvenience? A. Yes. It would be
inconvenient for me to have to carry them.
Q. To the rooms? A. That’s right.
Q. Do they have special rooms in any of the schools in
which you know there are public school music teachers?
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
Mr. Chambers: Mr. Yarborough, you are confining
that to the County?
-19L
Mr. Yarborough: In the County, yes, sir.
A. No, I don’t know of any. Now, you know, I haven’t
been in—-in the schools that much. I don’t know of any.
1031a
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
By Mr, Yarborough:
Q. Mrs. Anderson, down at the Perry’s P T A— A.
Gethsemane.
Q. Gethsemane. Pardon me. At the Gethsemane P T A
meeting, at which I was there, you were present? A. I
was present.
Q. And I explained on behalf of the Board of Educa
tion the Court order and the integration of the students
and about the complete hundred percent free choice? A.
That’s correct.
Q. And told them to name the school and you’d get it?
A. That is right, what you said.
Q. In so many words—maybe not just that way—and
that was a cordial meeting? A. Yes. It seemed to be to
me.
Q. And the floor was opened for questions? A. Yes.
Q. And I—there were some questions? A. Yes.
Q. And I endeavored to answer them to the satisfaction
of people there? A. Yes.
—192—
Q. I don’t believe you asked any questions. A. No. I
understood it.
Q. You understood what was said? A. I understood.
Q. And I believe I said that the teachers would be hired
without regard to race, or words to that effect? A. I am
sure. When the whole thing was read the second time I was
interested in that part. Now, the first time it was—to be
perfectly frank, it was late and I hadn’t heard that part
that you were reading, so I dare say I even listened to the
rest of it, so I couldn’t say actually that you did or that
you didn’t really.
Q. And then some several weeks ago, you, along with all
1032a
the other teachers of the County, insofar as you know, came
to a meeting at the Louisburg School? A. Yes.
Q. A completely integrated meeting? A. Yes.
Q. You walked in and sat where you wanted to? A.
Yes.
Q. And Mr. Horace Baker whom you knew was there!
A. Yes.
Q. And he is a chairman of the County Board of Educa
tion? A. That is true. He is now.
—193—
Q. And he was there on the little stage that they had?
A. That is true.
Q. And Mr. Smith was there and spoke? A. Yes, he was
there.
Q. And I was there and spoke? A. Yes.
Q. And I believe Mr. Earl Martin spoke about something
about the E S E A program? A. That is true.
Q. And so far as you could tell that was a cordial meet
ing? A. So far as I could tell.
Q. So far as you were concerned it was certainly cordial ?
A. That is true.
Q. And the floor there was open for questions? A. True.
Q. And any questions asked I endeavored to answer them
to the best I could, to the satisfaction of the asker? A.
That is true.
Q. And I certainly did not refuse to answer any ques
tions? A. No, I can’t remember but about one question
being asked.
—194—
Q. Very few, I grant you. A. Yes. And I don’t know
what that was, but I remember we asked questions, but I
couldn’t hear.
Q. That was Mr. Conway asked it—a teacher at Perry’s
School? A. That’s right.
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
1033a
Q. And I answered? A, You did.
Q. And I several times asked if there were any questions ?
A. You did.
Q. And it wasn’t a hurried meeting, took time enough for
everybody to ask questions if they wanted to? A. That is
right.
Q. If they desired to. A. That is true.
Q. And there the Court order was read, and other things,
and you were told, along with the others, that—to pick out
the school you wanted to teach in and the Board would en
deavor to honor it? A. That is true.
Q. Without regard to race? A. That is true.
Q. And that was it substantially? A. That was the gist
of the Court order, that’s right.
—195—
Q. You know that there are two white people teaching at
Riverside School, on the faculty there? A. The librarian
and the speech therapist.
Q. And you know the speech therapist also teaches a
class in high school English? A. Oh, I didn’t know that.
Q. You say—do you know it? A. No, I do not know that.
Q. And Mrs. Gertie Jones—do you know her? A. No,
I don’t know her personally, but I heard her name called.
Q. You knew she was on the staff of—the faculty at
Louisburg? A. Yes.
Q. Until she was stricken ill? A. That is true.
Q. Now, Mrs. Anderson, you haven’t filled out an appli
cation for this coming school year as yet? A. No, I have
not.
Q. And Mr. Darden is your principal? A. That is true.
Q. And has been there since you have been there? A.
Has been there since I have been there, that is true.
Q. And have you yet decided where you would like to
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
1034a
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
— 196—
teach next year? A. Now, I know that is a yes or no
question. But, no, I have not. I will put it : no, I have not.
Q. Would you like to explain that answer! A. Yes. I
was going to say—now, I haven’t decided since the ques
tions have come up, but heretofore, before the questions
had come up, I had decided where I wanted to go, but, no,
I have not decided where.
Q. What question do you mean? I didn’t get you. A.
You asked me had I decided where I wanted to teach next
year.
Q. Yes. A. And the second part—you want the second
part?
Q. Yes. A. I know where I want to teach.
Q. You know where you want to teach? A. Yes.
Q. Where is that? A. I am accustomed to the students
at Gethsemane and that type of thing, and for my own
selfish reasons I would probably want to go back to Geth
semane.
Q. Are you willing to make an application teaching at
Louisburg School? A. Now, that I would have to decide
after some thought, because if I was assigned to Louisburg
- 1 9 7 -
High School, assigned there, I would teach there or no
where. If I was assigned I would go to Louisburg High
School, but to volunteer to go—I don’t know if I am. ever
so young and full of zest to try to adjust myself to a brand
new situation, but I would if I had to do it.
Q. Are you willing to make an application to Louisburg
School, to teach in Louisburg School for the coming year?
Mr. Kennedy: Objection, Answer his question.
Mr. Yarborough: Under the rules, if an objection
is made, you still answer.
1035a
Deposition of Edith Alston Anderson
A. I probably would.
(Discussion off record)
By Mr. Yarborough:
Q. Have you received an application form from Mr.
Darden, your principal, for the coming school year! A.
No, I haven’t received an application at all from anyone.
Q. And you expect or hope to teach next year? A.
Somewhere.
Q. And you get along with Mr. Darden all right? A.
Fine.
Q. He is a fine man? A. Yes, I think so.
—198—
Q. And you relationship with Mr. Smith and others has
always been very cordial? A. With me it has been.
Q. And him with you? A. Yes, as far as I know.
Q. And with Mrs. Holmes? A. Yes.
Q. And Mrs. Clayton and others? A. Yes.
Q. Which supervisor are you usually under? A. Not
Mrs. Clayton. Last year I had Mrs. Clayton, but this year
she is with the high school. Now, if she comes in, I happen
to ask her something, but she is not my supervisor. I am
not under her supervision.
Q. And she is the high school supervisor and Mrs. Davis
is the elementary? A. That’s right.
Q. Mrs. Clayton is a white lady and Mrs. Davis is a
colored lady? A. That’s correct.
Mr. Yarborough: Thank you very much, Mrs.
Anderson. That’s all I have.
Mr. Kennedy: That’s all.
Mr. Chambers: I have no further questions.
Witness excused.
1036a
Deposition of William L. Stormer
—2—
# # # =» #
W illiam L. Stormer, being first duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows:
Direct Examination by Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Would you state your full name, please sir? A.
William L. Stormer.
Q. What is your occupation, Mr. Stormer? A. Assistant
Chief, School Construction Section, Division of School As-
— 3—
sistance, United States Office of Education.
Q. What is your race, sir? A. Caucasian.
Q. Would you describe your education, please? A.
Took a bachelor’s degree at Youngstown University,
Youngstown, Ohio. Masters, University of Wyoming, at
Laramie, Wyoming, and did additional graduate work at
Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio.
Q. In what field was your graduate work? A. Educa
tional administration is the masters. I hold additional grad
uate work in educational administration, with an empha
sis on school planning.
Q. Would you describe the nature of your work with
your present employer? A. The nature of my work with
my present employer is the administration of construction
under Public Law 815, which is aid to federally impacted
areas. Primary mission is to examine school construction
project proposals, review them, approve them, both in
money aspects and also in construction aspects where it
pertains to educational planning.
Q. Now7, would you tell us a little bit about your general
experience with respect to school plants, school capacities,
1037a
Deposition of William L. Stormer
— 4—
and so on, in the different kinds of work, and tell us the
type of work you have done in the educational field? A.
The main emphasis would be on—my main emphasis began
at Ohio State University where I worked as a research
assistant in the school plant division, Bureau of Educa
tional Research, in which we undertook studies of local
school districts within the State of Ohio and outside the
State of Ohio for the purpose of planning better school
facilities. This involved planning of school plants, develop
ing the educational specifications, and working on addi
tional educational studies, and so forth.
Later, following that experience, I went over to the
State Department of Education, Charlestown, West Vir
ginia, and worked as the director of school plant planning
and studies for the State Department, and this experience
involved assisting the school districts to conduct the same
kind of studies that I previously mentioned, as well as
approving and reviewing, approving plans for construction
of all projects in the state.
Q. Was the subject matter of your work the—the deter
mination how best to use school faeiliites, among other
things? A. Yes.
—5—
Q. Have you also had any direct educational experience
as a teacher? A. Yes.
Q. Where has that been, Mr. Stormer? A. I taught five
years in Warren, Ohio, the elementary level mainly.
Q. Let me ask you whether in Warren, Ohio, you taught
segregated or integrated classes? A. They were inte
grated classes? A. They were integrated classes.
Q. Did you ever teach anywhere where the Negro pupils
were in the majority? A. Yes.
1038a
Q. Did you find this an unduly situation? A. No.
Q. What was the proportion of Negro pupils in the
classes in which you taught in which the proportion was
greatest! What was the greatest proportion of Negro
pupils in the classes you taught? A. For about two years
I had a situation where the proportion was probably two-
thirds or three-fourths Negroes.
Q. Was it possible to advance the pupils and to furnish
them adequate educational opportunities under this sys
tem? A. I believe so, yes.
— 6—
Q. Now, Mr. Stormer, have you done broad reading in
the field about which you are going to testify today? A.
Yes.
Q. Have you physically inspected a significant number
of school plants in different parts of the country? A. I
don’t know whether you can—what ‘significant number’
means. But I have been in several hundreds of school
buildings and throughout the country, and in a number of
different states, and in classrooms in each of these build
ings.
Q. Now, let me ask you whether you have had occasion
to look at the school buildings and the school plants of
the schools of the Franklin County Board of Education?
A. Yes. On May tenth and May eleventh I visited the school
buildings of Franklin County. On two different occasions.
On the morning of May the tenth I viewed the sites from
an automobile and later in the day I entered the—began
entering the buildings, after three o’clock, and viewed six
buildings on the tenth and six buildings on the eleventh.
Q. Approximately how much time did you spend on each
of these buildings? A. Well, the school plants which had
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1039a
Deposition of William L. Stormer
—7—
secondary schools— this would amount to—what—an hour
or hour and a half on the average. The school plants
which had elementary or grades one through eight—there
was less time spent. Approximately a half an hour.
Q. Was your time in your schools sufficient to determine
what facilities were present in those schools and the general
nature of those facilities? A. Yes. I ’ve got an impression
of the general nature of the facilities.
Q. Let me ask you whether you have done this kind of
thing in connection with government lawsuits before? A.
I have.
Q. Have you clone that in a number of different states?
A. In three different states—in four different states. Mis
sissippi, Louisiana, Alabama, and Tennessee.
Q. Ordinarily, when you make these surveys, who ac
companies you? A. Ordinarily I am accompanied by an
employee of the school board, an attorney from the Justice
Department, on occasions a staff member of the Bureau of—
Federal Bureau of Investigation who usually acts as a
photographer.
Q. Who accompanied you on this occasion! A. Richard
Goldberg, of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and
— 8—
Willis Collie, of the Franklin County School District.
Q. Let me ask you, for the record, was I in your com
pany? A. No.
Q. Can you describe why that was?
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form.
Mr. Schwelb: (To Witness) You may answer the
question.
A. Pardon.
1040a
Mr. Sehwelb: (To Witness) Yon may answer the
question.
A. On the afternoon of May tenth there was a discussion
held in this conference room between Mr. Yarbrough and
Mr. Sehwelb, in which Mr. Yarborough objected to Mr.
Sehwelb accompanying me on the trip.
By Mr. Sehwelb:
Q. Let me ask you whether you were able to effectively
view the facilities without my vision helping you? A. I
was able to view the facilities without your assistance.
Q. Now, Mr. Stormer, in connection with your viewing of
these facilities at the different schools, is there a—I’d like
to ask you, if you will, what are some of the other states
in which you have viewed facilities? A. Well, as I men-
— 9—
tioned earlier, in the States of Ohio, Indiana, West Vir
ginia—and these were in terms of school plant studies, and
schools of various spots around the country at various
times, including California, Georgia, Michigan.
Q. Would you be able to tell us whether there was any
feature of the Franklin County schools in the location of
the schools, the arrangement of the schools, that is sig
nificantly different from those in some of these areas
which you have described—if you understand my question?
A. Yes. There were schools which offered the same grades
located relatively close to each other, within half a mile
or a mile or two miles of each other.
Q. Do you have with you a map of Franklin County
upon which the approximate location of the different schools
are indicated? A. Yes, I do.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1041a
Mr. Sehwelb: I ’d like to introduce into evidence,
as Government Exhibit 1 to this deposition, a map
of Franklin County with the various schools indi
cated thereon, and I think it is correct to say that
Mr. Yarborough and Mr. Davis have stipulated—and
Mr. Chambers stipulates—that this accurately or rea
sonably accurately represents the location of the
—1 0 -
schools in the Franklin County system.
(Marked for identification Govt’s Exhibit 1)
By Mr. Sehwelb:
Q. Where you referred to schools located close to one
another, serving the same grades and same types of schools,
what particular schools were you referring to, Mr. Stormer f
A. Well, Youngsville offers grades one to twelve. Youngs-
ville Elementary offers grades one to eight. Perry’s offers
grades one to twelve. Gold Sand offers one to twelve;
Louisburg is one to twelve, and Riverside is one to twelve,
and in the same approximate area within this area is
Cedar Street, which is one to seven.
Q. Now, Mr. Stormer, besides inspecting the school plants
themselves, have you had access to any documents which
have helped you in this study? A. Yes.
Q. What documents have they been? A. I have had ac
cess to the County’s reports to the State on school facilities
and the answers to interrogatories, your file, that contained
enrollment figures.
Q. Did this include the projected enrollment figures for
—11—
1967-68? A. Yes.
Q. Prepared by the defendant? A. Yes.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1042a
Q. Now, let me ask you: from the documents that you
have examined have you learned generally which of these
schools is predominantly white and which school is pre
dominantly Negro! A. Yes. From your—your document
indicates white and non-white enrollments.
Q. In relation to that, when we talked about these pairs
of schools, such as Bunn and Gethsemane and Epsom and
Gold Sand that you have discussed, are they ordinarily
predominantly one race or predominantly different races—-
the two pairs! A. According to your records, predomi
nantly two different races.
Q. In other words, you’ve got a school predominantly of
one race serving the same grades as a school of predomi
nantly another race, close to one another? A. Yes.
Q. Let me ask you whether you know of any educational
disadvantages that are inherent in that type of arrange
ment? A. Which type of arrangement?
Q. Having two schools one through twelve located in
- 1 2 -
close proximity to one another? A. There are a few dis
advantages. One is the factor that you are offering, well,
minimum program to both, even—to school membership in
both school plants. This is probably, well, a higher cost
per pupil on the basis of small enrollments at these two
different centers, rather than if they were combined, you
would be able to achieve a lower per pupil cost.
Secondly, you would be able to offer a more comprehen
sive or diversified program with larger enrollments.
Third item that you might consider—that you get better
utilization out of your school facilities with a combining of
the two.
Q. Let me ask you, generally, in elaboration of some of
the things you have just said, Mr. Stormer, is there any
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1043a
thing particularly disadvantageous about having a very
small high school? A. Well, it would be a converse of
what we just mentioned. This would be the smaller the
school the higher the cost per pupil for the educational
program being offered. You would—you are unable to
balance out class size loads. I say ‘unable’ ; it is less easily
— 13—
balanced out in smaller total membership. It would appear
that because of small total membership—and this is par
ticularly true in secondary schools—that you are not able
to maintain classes in certain subject areas because of its
small enrollment. It becomes uneconomical to offer, say,
one class for five or six or seven pupils.
Q. Let me ask you whether you know of any studies that
have been made of the question, whether it is easier or
more difficult to offer a diversified program to high school
students economically in a small school or a larger section?
A. William J. Woodham, of Florida, conducted a study
of school plants in the State of Florida in which he indi
cated that schools of small size or small enrollments costs
more to operate on a per pupil basis than schools of larger
size enrollments.
Clifford Smith, in a study in the State of Ohio, indicated
the same kind of outcome when studying secondary schools
of Ohio which offered grades nine to twelve and ten to
twelve—that it cost considerably more to offer the program
in the smaller school centers than it did in the larger school
centers. In addition, it indicated that with the smaller
— 14-
school centers you couldn’t give such a wide—well—broad
course offering as you could in the larger school centers.
James Conant said approximately the same thing back
in 1959 when he did the studies of the high school.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1044a
Q. Is this Dr. Conant, originally of Harvard? A. Yes.
Q. Is he recognized as an authority in his field? A. I
would say.
Q. What would you say, from the authorities that you
have read, and in your own expert judgment, the size that
a high school needs to be before it can economically offer
a varying program? A. Woodham comes up with a mini
mum size of approximately 350 in the upper three or four
grades, or five hundred in grades seven through twelve.
Clifford Smith indicates that a school of minimum size
would be about 850 in the upper three or four grades and
optimum size up to about twelve hundred. And above this
twelve hundred figure, or a thousand or twelve hundred,
there would be no economic advantages to speak of.
Q. I wonder if we could illustrate what you have been
talking about by taking Bunn and Gethsemane, Mr.
Stormer. Now, I ’d like to show you the notice of school
— 15-
desegregation plan, under Title VI of the Civil Eights Act
of 1964, which are attached to answers to the interroga
tories filed by the defendants several weeks ago. I ’d like
to ask you—and I am only taking Bunn and Gethsemane
as an example—with respect to geography which of those
two schools gives this course? A. Bunn offers geography
and Gethsemane does not.
Q. What about advanced trigonometry and algebra?
A. Bunn offers advanced trigonometry and algebra and
Gethsemane does not.
Q. What about agriculture? A. Bunn offers agricul
ture; Gethsemane does not.
Q. What about construction industry? A. Gethsemane
offers construction industry and Bunn does not.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1045a
Q. What about consumer math? A. Bunn offers con
sumer math and Gethsemane does not,
Q. What about shorthand? A. Shorthand—Bunn offers
shorthand and Gethsemane does not,
Q. Now, what about business communication? A. Busi
ness communication—Gethsemane offers business communi
cation and Bunn does not.
Q. What about Spanish I and Spanish II? A. Both
—16—
of these are offered at Bunn and not at Gethsemane.
Q. What about physical education and health II? A.
Physical education and health II Bunn offers; Gethsemane
does not.
Q. And chemistry? A. Chemistry is offered at Bunn
and not at Gethsemane.
Q. And special education, at the bottom of the page?
A. Special education is offered at Gethsemane and not
at Bunn.
Q. Now, Mr. Stormer, I don’t want to go through all
of the schools with you, because they are in the records,
but supposing that Bunn High School and Gethsemane
High School were consolidated into one high school, would
the curricular opportunities for the students in each high
school be improved by that? A, This would be the im
pression you would receive, yes.
Q. And how would they be improved? A. You would
assume with the larger enrollment you would be able to
offer the courses that are offered independently at a single
center.
Q. Now, in connection with that, can you recall or can
you tell from the charts or figures that you have seen the
approximate number of pupils in the high schools of Bunn
Deposition of William L, Stormer
1046a
Deposition of William L. Stormer
—17—
and Gethsemane—can yon get your record, if you want to
—projected for next year, let’s say. A. This is according
to my chart, attachment four. Bunn—and this includes
grades seven through twelve—which may not necessarily
be the organization that is currently offered—
Q. Maybe I can shorten the question. Let me withdraw
that question and ask you this: if the high school popula
tion of Bunn and Gethsemane were put into one high
school, would that be a more or less economical and effec
tive way to provide diversified and educational oppor
tunities for the students of those two schools? A. It would
be more—assuming that these studies indicate, or the in
dications are correct—it would be a more economical ar
rangement.
Q. Now, you say that assuming these studies are cor
rect. Do you know of any authority to the contrary? A.
I know of no authority to the contrary.
Q. Do you have any significant doubt that— A. No,
I don’t have any doubt—
Q. Of the conclusions that you just reached? A. Of
the conclusions.
—18—
Q. Now, have you ever read any work which indicates
that high schools the size of Bunn or Gethsemane would be
more effective than a high school of combining the two?
A. No, I haven’t.
Q. Now, let me ask you this: supposing that Bunn and
Gethsemane, or Gold Sand and Perry’s, or other areas,
were consolidated in the way that we have discussed, is
there just one way you’ve got to do it or a—different ways
that can be arranged? Is it a flexible or inflexible proposi
tion? A. I would say it is very flexible. There are a num
ber of ways this can be achieved.
1047a
Q. Is it your testimony that there is one particular thing
that the defendants ought to do to make an effective edu
cational system, or would you say that is not so? A. One
thing !
Q. I mean—let me rephrase that. Within the framework
of consolidating the high school classes, different arrange
ments that could he made as between Bunn and Gethsemane,
it could accomplish the same goal? A. Yes.
Q. Gold Sand and Perry’s? A. Yes.
—19—
Q. Youngsville High and Youngsville Elementary? A.
Yes.
Q. And would it be true to some extent, too, at Louis-
burg and Cedar Street? A. Yes.
Q. I want to get into the question of crowding or over
crowding in more detail, Mr. Stormer, but in the interim
let me ask you whether you think that the crowding situa
tion is well balanced in the Franklin County system. Are
the schools equally crowded? A. Schools equally crowded?
Q. Yes. A. No. There are some schools more crowded
than others.
Q. The difference is fairly substantial, let’s say, in pupils
per acre? A. In pupils per acre, yes.
Q. There are some significant differences in pupils per
classroom remaining? A. There are differences, yes.
Q. Now, in working out a consolidation along the lines
that we have been discussing, could adjustments be made
to balance—pursuant to which a reasonable balance could
be drawn? A. I believe so.
Q. Could the pupils per acre be taken into eonsidera-
— 20—
Deposition of William L. Stormer
tion? A. Yes.
1048a
Q. Could pupils per classrooms be! A. Yes.
Q. Could the location of movable facilities be taken into
consideration! A. Yes.
Q. Let me ask you, without going into tremendous de
tails about it, until we know just how it would be proposed
to be done, and we can’t get into great detail about it—
would a conversation from the system of twelve grade
schools near each other to this kind of consolidation system
be exorbitantly different! A. No, I don’t believe so.
Q. In the schools, generally, are the facilities such that
the adjustment could be made with reasonable ease! A.
Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Stormer, would you just generally tell us
the schools in the Franklin County system to which you
think these adjustments would be desirable! A. Well, the
schools of Youngsville, Youngsville Elementary, Bunn, and
Gethsemane. Perry’s and Gold Sand and Louisburg and
Riverside.
— 21—
Q. Could Cedar Street be accommodated! A. Cedar
Street could be included in the latter.
Q. Included! A. Yes.
Q. Now, there are two other schools close to each other
in the county, aren’t there! I am referring to—well, let me
ask you this: Edward Best Elementary and Edward Best
High School are close to each other! A. Yes. They are
fairly close to each other.
Q. Do they serve the same grades or different grades!
A. No, they serve different grades. Best Elementary,
grades one through six, and Edward Best High includes
grades six through twelve.
Q. In view of that do the same situations play at those
two schools that we have been talking about! A. No.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1049a
Q. In effect, they are already grade centers, aren’t they!
A. Eight.
Q. Now, Mr. Stormer, leaving this subject momentarily,
I would ask you whether in examining the sites and the
facilities at these different schools, when you went to them,
whether, among other things, you looked into the question
of the possible educational and structural and related dis-
— 22-
parities at the different schools! A. Yes, I did.
Q. And, generally speaking, are all the schools in the
system equally good—do you think! A. No. I have the
impression that the Youngsville Elementary—not Youngs-
ville—the Louisburg School stands out among all the schools
as being better than all others in the school district.
Q. Let me first get into general—into the general propo
sition of room to move around. Are you aware of the
acreage in the different schools! Is that something you
observed from the records you— A. I observed from the
records.
Q. And also visually! A. Yes.
Q. And, now, I am not going to ask you to tell us the
acreage in each school because that is already in the
record. It is going to be introduced at the trial. For ex
ample, let’s take Louisburg and Riverside. Do you remem
ber from your recollection the approximate acreage of the
site as between Louisburg and Riverside! A. Well, Louis
burg is approximately forty acres and Riverside is a
little bit better than ten.
Q. Now again, as between Louisburg and Riverside,
—23—
Mr. Stormer, where do more students go to school! A.
There are about seven hundred at Louisburg and fourteen
hundred at Riverside.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1050a
Q. Are you now talking from the projection of the free
dom of choice for next year? A. Yes, I am recalling those
projections.
Q. Let me ask you whether you know it is possible that
some students may not have chosen yet? A. I have no
knowledge of this.
Q. As between—taking a rough formula—the acreage
per pupils or pupils per acre, what is the relation between
Louisburg and Riverside? A. Well, you have an acreage
of approximately four to one at Louisburg, and half as
many pupils would be approximately eight to one.
Q. Now, with respect to the question of acreage, let me
ask you whether you are familiar generally with federal
assistance programs? A. Generally.
Q. In looking at these schools did you see any apparently
new improvements—let’s see—at Riverside School? A.
Yes. Riverside has new portable classrooms located on the
site. Has refurbished and revamped the library facilities.
There appears to be new equipment in the classrooms, also.
—24—
Q. Did you see such type of improvements at Perry’s?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see them at Cedar Street? A. Yes.
Q. Did you see them at Youngsville Elementary? A.
Yes.
Q. Did you see them at Gethsemane? A. Yes.
Q. Were they—did you see them to the same extent at
Gethsemane as some of the others, in relation to what they
previously had? A. In other words, the two-room portable
classrooms and the double—the use of combining two port
ables into a library at Gethsemane.
Q. Did you see any of this type of improvement, port
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1051a
able classrooms, at any of tbe other schools'? Did you see it
in Louisburg? A. No.
Q. Did you see any at Epsom? A. No.
Q. Gold Sand? A. No.
Q. Edward Best High or Louisburg? A. No.
—25—
Q, Did you see any at Bunn? A. No.
Q. Youngsville High? A. No.
Q. Now describe these temporary portable classrooms,
please, Mr. Stormer. A. They are movable trailers, what
appear to be movable trailers, which have been developed
as classrooms. Approximately seventy-five by twelve feet
in length.
Q. How many are there at Riverside, for example? A.
Nine.
Q. Would it be fair to say that they take up a considerable
amount of space?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
By Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Are they noticeable on that campus? A. They are
noticeable.
Q. Mr. Stormer, basically, as between Louisburg and
Riverside, where is there more room? Where was there
more room to put these portable or mobile classrooms at
the time they were installed? A. Where? Well, there is
more acreage at Louisburg than there is at Riverside.
Q. If you were trying to make the best possible disposi
tion of the space available, would you have put them in
Louisburg or in Riverside? A. In terms of acreage, site
—2 6 -
Deposition of William L. 8 former
size?
1052a
Q. Yes. A. At Louisburg.
Q. Now, let me ask you whether, in fairness to all parties
here, whether these temporary classroom additions to
Riverside or other schools have had any effect on any pos
sible pre-existing disparities between those schools on the
one hand, and the other schools in terms of overcrowding?
A. Have they had any—
Q. Well, let me ask you this: after these schools put in—■
these classrooms were put in, in Riverside, let’s say, was
the overcrowding at Riverside less than before or more
than before as far as classrooms? A. It would be less than
before.
Q. Would that be true at the other schools, also? A.
Yes, assuming the same enrollments.
Q. Now, are you familiar with any reasonable objective
standards for determining whether a school is overcrowded
or not? A. Yes.
Q. Have you used any reasonable objective standards in
making the studies? A. In making the studies I used
three, three different methods. One was computing capacity
generally on the basis of twenty pupils per classroom, com-
—27—
puted on the basis of twenty-five, and then on the basis of
thirty pupils per classroom, with some exceptions. The
exceptions being in the specialized areas where these size
enrollments would be too great. This would be true in home
economics, shop, vocational-agriculture, and trade and in
dustry.
Q. Now, in the report that you gave to me that we pro
pose to put into evidence, Mr. Stormer, are the details of
your study as to overcrowding set forth? A. Yes. They
are pupil ratios.
Q. Presently I am going to ask you to explain that whole
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1053a
report, but, generally speaking now, with those temporary
portable or mobile classrooms present did you reach the
conclusion that some, but not other schools, are over
crowded ? A. With the portable present I assume that cer
tain schools were overcrowded, on the basis of taking the
mid-point of what I classified as a reasonable capacity.
Q. Now, what schools are those, Mr. Stormer? A. These
would be Youngsville Elementary. I am thinking of the
total school plant, or speaking of the total school plant.
Youngsville Elementary, Bunn, Riverside, and Gethsemane
and Perry’s.
—28—
Q. Now, I notice you did not include Cedar Street in this
group. A. That’s right.
Q. Does Cedar Street have some temporary classrooms
there? A. Yes. It has one.
Q. If that temporary classroom were not there, would
that be among the overcrowded schools? A. Yes.
Q. Now, what is the acreage of Cedar Street? A. Cedar
Street is approximately three acres.
Q. If you had been planning the school plant when that
temporary class was available, would Cedar Street have
been the place you would have put it? A. On the basis of
acreage, possibly no.
Q. Well, let me ask you whether—what is the nearest
school to Cedar Street? A. The nearest school to Cedar
Street would be Louisburg.
Q. Would there be more or less room for it in Louisburg,
than Cedar Street? A. It would be more room for it.
Q. There would be more room where? A. At Louisburg.
Q. Now, I believe that—that the details of this over-
—2 9 -
crowding situation is set forth in the tables that you have
prepared there, are they? A. Yes.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1054a
Q. Do you think that is readily understandable without
nay questioning you on what high school and elementary
school was overcrowded and what isn’t, separately? A. I
believe so.
Q. Now, let me ask you, generally speaking, Mr. Stor
mer, disregarding overcrowding, whether you also made an
evaluation of the school plants? A. Yes. I recorded a
general impression of the school plants, and this impres
sion included all the buildings on the site.
Q. And the facilities available? A. And the facilities
available.
Q. Now, let me ask you if you have an opinion, without
any hesitation, what is the best school in Franklin County?
A. I believe Louisburg is.
Q. Tell us why. A. Well, essentially, Louisburg is a
larger school site and the buildings are relatively new. I
believe constructed in—-what—1963. Its facilities—it is in
fire resistant constructed buildings. The classroom facili
ties in the buildings are contemporary or modern. It offers
—30—
a—good special educational facilities. By special educa
tion I am referring to home economics and science facili
ties. It’s got a good physical education plant. Good music.
It has the only music, special music, classroom in the entire
County that I observed. These are the types of things that
make it stand out among the twelve school plants of the
County.
Q. Let me ask you this: is there a considerable gap as
between Louisburg and the next best school, from the point
of view of capacity and some other considerations, disre
garding overcrowding? A. A sizeable gap? There is a
gap between Louisburg and Riverside. And by saying
Riverside, I am excluding considerations of the site.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1055a
Q. I mean disregarding overcrowding and disregarding
acreage per pupil and that type of consideration, what is
the next best school! A. Again, I am trying to qualify
the answer by saying that Riverside is a good school plant
actually, and according to ranking Gethsemane shows up as
the second best school plant, when you take all other con
siderations, site, and so forth, into consideration.
Q. Just for one clarification, then, Mr. Stormer, you are
—31—
not—all you are doing when you are talking about the
school is looking at the school without knowing anything
about the pupils that go there! A. Right.
Q. Or the number! A. Right.
Q. Now, let me ask you whether there is any difference
in this County, generally, between the structures of the
elementary school plants and the structures of some of the
other schools! A. Yes, there are differences. You will
find white frame elementary schools at Perry’s, Gethse
mane, Cedar Street, Youngsville Elementary. A portion of
Riverside—a few classrooms.
Q. What about— A. To qualify, again, at Perry’s there
is a portion of the elementary school that is in an addition
which is constructed of concrete block.
Q. Now, the remaining elementary school plants— A.
The remaining elementary school plants have brick ex
teriors.
Q. Now, let me ask you whether there is any difference
as between some of the schools and others with respect to
gymnasium and auditorium and cafeteria facilities! A.
—3 2 -
Well, Perry’s school plant—you have a combination gym
nasium-auditorium and dining facilities with a kitchen
facility serving this dining facility located in a portable
building, a relocatable building.
Deposition of William. L. Stormer
1056a
At Gethsemane you have combination gymnasium-audi
torium with the same kind of arrangement in terms of the
kitchen.
At Youngsville you have a center corridor area. It is
not a corridor area. It is a combination dining and audi
torium facility with a cafeteria-kitchen located in a portable
building.
At Cedar Street you have a serving kitchen. It is a
satellite kitchen-dining, I presume, that occurs in the class
room itself.
Eiverside has a separate cafeteria building and it has a
combining auditorium-gymnasium on one floor and class
rooms on the lower floor.
At Louisburg you have an auditorium, a building which
contains the auditorium and the music facilities and cafe
teria facilities as separate entities, plus a separate gym
nasium building. You have a separate gymnasium and
auditorium at all other schools, and separate lunchroom
facilities.
Q. Now, Mr. Stormer, is it true that most of the schools
in the County are one through twelve? A. Most of the
—3 3 -
schools.
Q. All right. Now, the two Edward Best schools you
have referred to previously, are they close to each other?
A. Reasonably close, yes.
Q. Does the Perry’s school seem to you to be generally
a feeder situation between the two? A. I would presume
that the elementary youngsters go to Edward Best High
School.
Q. Well, are there any schools in the Franklin County
system of which you are aware which don’t have a corres
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1057a
ponding high schol to them—do yon understand the ques
tion! A. No, I don’t.
Q. Well, are there any schools which have only the
elementary grades and which don’t seem to have an as
sociated—immediately associated high school associated
automatically! A. Well, you have Youngsville Elementary
School which si one to nine, and you have Cedar Street
Elementary which is one to seven.
Q. Now, would you very briefly describe those two
schools! A. Well, Cedar Street Elementary is a frame
building, situated on-—what—approximately a three-acre
—34—
site. The building itself contains a satellite kitchen or serv
ing kitchen with two—three classrooms, including a little
library. And there is a portable classroom building located
adjacent to it.
Youngsville Elementary has four classrooms surround
ing—two on each side of this combination auditorium-din
ing area, plus a library. And it has two portable class
rooms located outside adjacent to the building and this,
again, is a frame structure.
Q. Do you recall what the acreage sites are of those two?
A. Approximately three acres in each site.
Q. From your testimony, I take it that there have been
recent additions to each of these two schools? A. The
portable classrooms are recent additions. The kitchen
facility at Youngsville is a recent addition. There has been
modification or improvement in the library facilities at both
of these schools. The kitchen facilities at Cedar Street ap
pear to be upgraded, also.
Q. Now, I ’d like to show you the Exhibit A to the defend
ants’ answers to interrogatories which were recently filed
in this case, and which show the enrollment total by grades
for the 1966-67 school term, dated October 3, 1966. I ’d like
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1058a
to show you Cedar Street and ask you how many grades are
—35—
apparently served at Cedar Street? A. Cedar Street,
seven grades.
Q. And how many teachers apparently are teaching at
Cedar Street? A. Four.
Q. And Pd like to show you the same with respect to
Youngsville Elementary. A. Youngsville Elementary is
grades one to eight and one ungraded situation, and seven
teachers.
Q. Again, with respect to Youngsville Elementary—and
was there more room to have additions on the site of
Youngsville than—was there more room on the site of
Youngsville High School from the sense of acreage? A.
Possibly there is more room. Well, I say there is possibly.
Q. What is the acreage at Youngsville? A. The acreage
at Youngsville High School is around ten to thirteen.
Q. Youngsville Elementary is three? A. About three.
Q. Now, I wonder if you would—well, let me introduce
into evidence at this point as Government’s Exhibit 2 the
- 3 6 -
report prepared by Mr. Stormer in connection with this
case, and Pd like to ask you would the reporter please mark
that.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
(Marked for identification Govt’s Exhibit 2)
(Discussion off record)
By Mr. Sckwelb:
Q. Mr. Stormer, while we were off the record there was
considerable comment that perhaps that Government’s Ex
hibit 2 ought to be explained to the various people in
the room and to the Court. Would you tell us what it is
1059a
and what you’ve got in there and what the charts mean,
and so on? A. This is my report?
Q. Yes. A. Let’s say that the second page is a listing
of the school plants and the dates on which they were
visited, and I might distinguish—and there is a definition
of—in school plants, meaning all the buildings on a given
school site, including the—may include several different
schools. By schools I mean you have Bunn Elementary
School and Bunn High School on the same plant site.
This chart exhibits the twelve school plants that are
located in Franklin County and the school grade enrollment,
number of instructional rooms, and the estimated 1967-68
—37—
enrollment. Then the far right-hand three columns are my
expressions of capacity in terms of the optimum or the most
desirbale kind of capacity, what are considered to be a
reasonable capacity and an emergency capacity, and I think
I explained a little bit earlier that the basic figure on this
is using a count for the optimum, 20 pupils for the class
room, 25 for the reasonable, and thirty for the emergency,
with some adjustments where special facilities that exist
would not accommodate that size enrollment.
Q. Now, I notice you’ve got a footnote ‘3’ that appears
on Gethsemane, Perry’s, Riverside, and also Cedar Street,
and you say, “ Includes 18 portable classrooms used for
regular and special instruction.” Now is the capacity: op
timum, reasonable, and emergency, that we have computed,
predicated on the existence of those at the location of
those? A. Yes. This is predicated on the existence of the
portable classrooms as they are so situated at the present
time.
Q. Let me get, for the record, how many at Cedar
Street? A. Quickly, one at Cedar Street. Two at Gethse-
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1060a
mane. Perry’s, I believe it is four. You have nine at River
side and two at Youngsville Elementary School.
—38—
Q. Now this table is based on these portable class
rooms remaining where they are? A. Right.
Q. Are you expressing any opinion there in this partic
ular portion as to whether they be retained where they
are? A. No opinion is expressed.
Q. Does this table—the first one—take into considera
tion such characteristics as acreage per pupil? A. No.
Q. Please go ahead. A. The second page of the report
—would you like me to explain strictly the charts?
Q. Why don’t you just generally summarize the writing,
too. A. Quickly, on Roman III on the second page I have
indicated some qualifications which effect the ratings that
show up in the next chart, and I indicate in Roman IV
some of the differences that exist between various school
plants, not considering overcrowding as a factor. I don’t
know whether you want me—
Q. Largely, what you talk about in IV has already been
testified to? A. Yes. And Roman—apparently Roman V
—39—
has been omitted. Roman VI is overcrowding. I omitted
Roman V. And VII is locations of school plants. And VIII
is some possible conclusions.
Q. Now you are going to testify about that later I hope.
A. Attachment 1 is an overall impression of the school
plants, and this is based on using a score card of school
plants as developed by Henry Lynn and Felix McCormick,
Professors at Columbia University. It is a rather common
accepted score card. It is one that is relatively easy and
quickly used. And the figures here indicate scores.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1061a
Let me say that there are twelve areas which are covered
in the seore card, which includes site, buildings, structure,
heat, and ventilation, fire protection, and so forth. And
the figure immediately to the right of the summation is
the optimum score for each of these items.
And then underneath each of the school plant centers
is my general impression of the conditions that exist on the
site which, again, I would say that time didn’t permit rating-
each individual building on a given site. For example,
Bunn School has a number of different buildings, some of
—40—
which are less adequate than others. And so this is a
composite impression of all of these facilities.
Q. Let me ask you again whether in this particular
rating that you did here did you consider crowding at all!
A. No.
Q. Now, what is the score for Louisburg on that? A.
The score for Louisburg is 601.
Q. And what kind of a score is that? Is that a pretty
good score nationally? A. Average.
Q. And the nest highest after that I believe is— A.
Gethsemane.
Q. Is Gethsemane, with— A. 487.
Q. Now, what are the bottom two? A. The bottom two
are Youngsville Elementary and Cedar Street Elemen
tary.
Q. And they score what? A. 337 and 305, respectively.
Q. And that is including those additions that they have
now? A. Yes.
Q. When a school scores in the low three hundreds, is
that an indication of excellence or not? A. No, it is not an
—4 1 -
Deposition of William L. Sformer
indication of excellence.
1062a
Q. What is it an indication of—say, 305! A. I would
say that it is a less than adequate school plant.
Q. Would you say anything under four hundred would
be less than adequate! A. Yes.
Q. Cedar Street is 305! A. Eight.
Q. Now, again, you’ve got—the number of pupils is not
considered— A. No.
Q. In reaching this! A. I say no. There is a slight
consideration of pupils and this is in the site category, in
terms of enrollments that are presently housed at these
facilities. There is an impression here of overcrowding,
but this is the only spot.
Q. For instance, in that respect Louisburg gets what
score A. 38.
Q. Louisburg! A. Oh, Louisburg. 75.
Q. And Riverside gets— A. 38.
—42—
Q. What kind of a score is 38! A. I would say it is
a low score. Less than average.
Q. Proceed to the next attachment, two, and explain
that to us! A. Attachment two is the rank order of utili
zation when you consider that the mid-point—by mid-point,
again, I am referring to this resonable capacity figure.
If you would assume that that is the point of capacity.
And in comparing that point of capacity with the actual
enrollment at the school you get a percent of utilization.
Q. Now, which are the five apparently overcrowded
schools as far as total plants on that attachment! A. As
far as total plants are concerned, you have Youngsville
Elementary, Bunn, Riverside, Gethsemane and Perry’s as
being the overcrowded schools.
Q. Now, I notice you have footnotes—wait a minute.
What does footnote ‘1’ mean! A. Actually, the numbers
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1063a
which are circled beside the percent figure are the number
of portables located at these various school sites. And in
my appraisal of the use of these portables they are split
off into, say, Riverside, five, used for elementary school
purposes, and four are used for high school purposes,
- 4 3 —
and this is the figure.
Q. Now, let me ask you something about—while we are
looking at this chart about Epsom. Now, I notice Epsom
is 59.8 percent on the total plant. What are some of the
ramifications of that? A. Well, it indictes that Epsom
has space available to take higher—greater enrollment.
Included in this figure at Epsom I should mention that
you’ve got an elementary class—well, I say elementary-—
a classroom which is used strictly for custodial and main
tenance supply storage, and it is a regular classroom. So
this figure was thrown in as considering it as a classroom.
Q. Mr. Stormer, Cedar Street doesn’t have a high school,
does it? A. It has grade seven. And at the time this
report—throughout the report grades seven through twelve
are considered to be secondary grades. Actually, a high
school is not an appropriate label. Probably secondary
school is a more appropriate label.
Q. With respect to Riverside and Youngsville Elemen
tary you are talking about grades seven in the one and
eight in the other? A. Right.
Q. Now, this table, again, is based upon the presence
— 44—
of portable classrooms at the locations where they are
now situated? A. That’s right.
Q. Let’s take, for example, Cedar Street, remove the
portable classroom and where would that be situated?
A. It would throw it in the overcrowded class.
Deposition of William, L. Stormer
1064a
Q. And Yonngsville Elementary, which is just above
Bunn, take away the portable classroom there and where
would that be? A. It would throw it into overcrowding.
Q. All right. Is—but would it still be above Bunn? A.
No, it would probably be greater than Bunn.
Q. Now, looking at the chart as a whole is the assign
ment of pupils to schools balanced badly in this system?
A. It would appear to be, according to the chart.
Q. Is the chart accurate as far as you know as to what
goes on as to the assignment of pupils in the system?
A. As far as I know, yes.
Q. Is it based upon the defendants’ documents that were
made available through answers to interrogatories and
through reports to the State Board of Education? A.
Bight. And it is based on the 1967-68 projected enrollment.
—45—
Q. Would you go to attachment three, please, and ex
plain that to us? A. Attachment three is a rank order of
pupil room ratios, and you have the three classifications:
total, elementary, and secondary, which are not shown in
the table. But there are the labels across the top, or should
be, and an indication. The average class load for the
County is indicated on the table and then the rank order
of the school plants or schools on the basis of pupil room
ratios.
Q. They, again, include the portable classrooms at their
present locations? A. Correct.
Q. Now, the schools as a whole—what are the three
lowest? A, Bunn, Gethsemane, Riverside, and Perry’s.
Q. You answered four, but I think that is probably fair.
Now, would you say that attachment three is otherwise
self-explanatory? A. I would say so.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1065a
Q. Would you explain attachment four, and in explain
ing it explain it to me, too. A. Okay. Attachment four
is actually a summarization by school plants of the elemen
tary, high school enrollments, numbers of rooms, pupil
room ratio, and the utilization at mid-point, and this is a
—4 6 -
table from which the two preceding tables—yes—the two
preceding tabulations were created.
Q. If you read attachment two and attachment three in
the sense that you have described them, can you get the
information? A. Yes.
Q. That would—is this a kind of background? A. This
was a background. A summarization prior to the develop
ment of attachments two and three.
Q. All right. Would you go to the next thing, two pages
later, which appears to be a page that doesn’t have a—
A. This is not an exhibit, per se, attached to the informa
tion. It is a summarization of the school facilities as I
saw them. And it is merely a quick inventory for recall
purposes.
Q. Would you say that the columns are fairly self-ex
planatory? A. Yes. It gives the school plant and the
building and the decade of construction, walls—you have
exterior wall construction, framing, floors, fire rating,
heating system, and numbers of classrooms in the entire
building. If I recall correctly, it is something in the
neighborhood of seven different building structures on
the twelve school plant sites.
—47—
Q. Now, I am studying next the teacher salaries and
the enrollment, on the two last pages, and I would like you
to explain to me, first of all, where was the information
taken from on the last two pages? A. Information was
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1066a
taken from records which were supplied to me, which are
copies of the County reports to the State.
And earlier in the testimony, or in the report, there is
a reference to the fact that the cost of maintaining small
school centers is greater than the cost of maintaining large
school centers, and I referred to studies that Mr. Woodham
and Mr. Smith, and to Conant, but I had no concrete evi
dence that actually pertained to Franklin County, so I
used these state reports just to see if there was a relation
ship and to pick it up in this kind of tabulation.
Actually what I did was to look at the teachers salaries
as reported in the State report and the 1966-67 enrollments
as reported in it. I think it is the fall report submitted to
the State. And computed a dollars per pupil ratio or ex
penditure on the basis of these teachers salaries, and it is
strictly a crude—a crude indication, because teachers
salaries make up only a portion of the expenditures that
are—well, a portion of the expenditures. In conducting a
school program you have to include or should include in
here other factors, like bus transportation, equipment, and
some materials and supplies, custodial services, secretarial
services, and you could even include capital outlay as an
other kind of category to actually get a picture.
As I say, this is a crude attempt in getting some indica
tion of the cost per pupil maintained in the centers.
Q. Now, on the last page of the report I take it you’ve
got that same thing—nine through twelve? A. Yes. Again,
at this point, when I had an opportunity to look at the
records which are submitted to the State, it became evi
dent that the school district as a whole is operating for
the most part on an eight-four arrangement, grades one
through eight as being elementary and grades nine through
twelve being considered as being secondary. You have one
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1067a
exception to this rule where you are operating a six-six
situation, and this is the Edward Best Elementary and
High School situation.
Q. Why are the two ones in column four on the last page,
one at Riverside and one at Epsom? A. Well, this is the
—49—
rank order of enrollment. You have teachers salaries, and
the enrollment, rank order of enrollment meaning that
Riverside is the highest in membership in grades nine
through twelve, and you have the fact that the last column,
six, is the rank order of expenditures per pupil.
Q. You are not there evaluating the site; you are evaluat
ing the teachers salaries? A. As I mentioned before, this
is a comparison of teachers salaries as reported for 1965-66
as compared to enrollment reported in the fall report, 1966-
67.
Q. Now, let’s take that column six, which seems to be a
conclusion as to which school has the greatest expenditure.
A. This would indicate that Epsom has the greatest expen
diture per pupil on the basis of teachers salaries.
Q. And the second one? A. The second one, Gold Sand,
and third would be Edward Best High. And third would
be Edward Best High.
Q. And four Louisburg? A. Four would be Louisburg,
and five would be Youngsville, and six would be Gethse-
mane, and seven would be Riverside, and eight would be
Perry’s.
Q. I see. All right. Now, do you believe that you should
- 5 0 -
say anything more about this entire report before we leave
it, or do you think you have summarized what is in it? A.
I think essentially it is summarized. You might have some
more questions. I don’t know.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1068a
Deposition of William L. Stormer
Mr. Schwelb: That report is in evidence.
By Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Now, Mr. Stormer, you testified earlier that this sys
tem of having two schools covering the same grades near
one another has certain disadvantages, and you have de
scribed them. Let me ask you what are the corresponding
advantages, if any? A. Advantages of what?
Q. Of having two schools covering the same grades near
one another ? A. I know of none.
Q. Are you firm in your answer on that? A. Yes.
Q. On that question. Now, I ’d like to talk—I’d like you
to talk a little bit about some of the solutions which could
resolve these educational disadvantages and provide more
diversified and evenly distributed equal educational facil
ities to all students in the Franklin County system. Let’s
take Bunn and Gethsemane and Gold Sand and Perry’s and
—51—
Youngsville, Youngsville High and Youngsville Elementary,
for a minute. What type of solution could you envisage
which would eliminate some of these problems with respect
to insufficient diversification, for example? A. One of the
possibilities is to combine two schools and their enrollments.
This would be particularly true at the secondary school
level.
Q. Now, I think we may have covered this before, but
just to clarify this point of solution, is there a magic way
to do it? A. No magic way to do it.
Q. Let’s say Bunn and Gethsemane-—would it be possible,
for example, to concentrate the high school grades, the
upper high school grades, with, say, Bunn and Gethse
mane? A. It is a possibility.
1069a
Q. Would that be wasting the plant particularly? A.
No.
Q. Are these schools presently adaptable to that type
of arrangement? A. Yes.
Q. Is that true also at Gold Sand and Perry’s? A. I
would say so.
Q. Is it true of Youngsville High and Youngsville Ele
mentary, for there is a difference there. Would you ex-
—5 2 -
plain— A. It is a difference in the sense of Youngsville
Elementary operates grades one to eight and Youngsville
High School—-I guess you call it—one to twelve. You
could combine these, and particularly the two junior high
school grades, or upper elementary or intermedial grades,
four through six. I think this is a possibility.
Q. Let me ask you whether—could temporary classrooms
and mobile classrooms be shifted without undue difficulty
in such a way that—in a way that would make adjustment
of this easier? A. This is possible.
Q. Is that something that could be taken into considera
tion? A. It could be, yes.
Q. Could acreage be taken into consideration? A. Yes.
Q. Let’s take Youngsville Elementary and Youngsville
High. What are some—let me ask you to reflect a little
and tell us some of the ways it could be done, some of the
different solutions that would better utilize the space and
facilities of both schools? A. One possibilitj?- would be
—5 3 -
just bring the seventh and eighth grades over from Youngs
ville Elementary, or grades one to twelve. Another would
be to bring four through eight over and continue both sites
as primary centers, primary grades. This would be grades
one through three.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1070a
Q. Would it be possible to use Youngsville Elementary
as a center for all the pupils of a given number, of a
particular grade? A. I think this would run into over
crowding on that basis.
Q. Could the students at Youngsville Elementary be rea
sonably confortably accommodated at Youngsville High?
A. Quickly, I ’d say probably this is true, yes, sir.
Q. Let me ask you whether there is an urgent necessity
for continuing Youngsville Elementary as a school at all?
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form.
Mr. Schwelb (to witness): You can answer.
A. Is there an urgent necessity to continue Youngsville
Elementary as a school center?
By Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Yes. Do you understand the question? A. Yes.
Without looking at it—I would have to look more closely
at it. I think that if you abandon Youngsville Elementary
totally, you would run into an overcrowding situation at
—54—
Youngsville one to twelve, but, again, this may not, and
I am not—you could move the portable and get some re
lief, but I would have to look at that one more carefully.
Q. You have indicated that—the different solutions in
the Youngsville area which would bring about a more
effective use of the facilities than presently. Are there
various solutions possible also at Gold Sand and Perry’s?
A. There are various solutions available.
Q. Do you have any desire to dictate which of those
would be the best? A. I have no desire to dictate.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1071a
Q. Bunn and Gethsemane? A. The same. Bunn and
Gethsemane, the same.
Q. Let me ask you whether you see any particular ob
stacle in having the high school students—some of the
high school students in these areas concentrated at Bunn
and Gold Sand and Riverside? A. Would you repeat that
question?
Q. Could some of the high school grades be concentrated
in Bunn, as distinguished from Bunn and Gethsemane, and
Gold Sand instead of Gold Sand and Perry’s and continue
go to—be concentrated at Youngsville? A. If you are re
ferring' to high school grades being ten through twelve—
—55—
nine through twelve, yes.
Q. Would that bring about some of the improvements
that you discussed earlier in your testimony? A. It should
yes.
Q. Now, let’s talk a little bit about the situation at Louis-
burg and Riverside. Which is the largest school in the
system? A. Riverside is the largest.
Q. Tell us a little bit about the difference in the problem
as between Louisburg and Riverside and Cedar Street on
the other hand, and some of these more rural schools on
the other, if there are any differences? A. Well, River
side and Louisburg have in my estimation better special
educational facilities. Both of them have better science
facilities than exist anywhere else in the County. I think
both of them have better home economic facilities than
exist anywhere else in the County. Louisburg has a music
facility that no other school in the County does have, ex
cept Riverside does have a portable music room, portable
construction.
Well, the business education facilities at Louisburg are
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1072a
somewhat better than Riverside, but here you’ve got to
take into consideration that both Riverside and Louisburg
- 5 6 -
have pretty good typing, typing instruction facilities.
Louisburg has a double-sized classroom in which you have
additional seating for instruction in business education,
general business, bookkeeping, shorthand—this kind of
setting does not exist in connection with the business edu
cation facilities at Riverside.
It is a possibility—and I can’t say one way or another
whether an additional classroom at Riverside is used for
this kind of instruction—I presume so—rather than using
the typing classroom for shorthand and bookkeeping and
that general business education.
Q. Let me ask you this general question, Mr. Stormer:
are both Riverside and Louisburg, generally speaking,
large enough to accommodate an adequate high school?
A. Yes, L’d say that both of them are operating with a
minimum—I say minimum. They are operating within the
minimum, the lower figure of high school enrollment. If
you look back at this chart just for a second. Riverside
has 375 in the upper four grades. Louisburg is considered
—well, considerably—-it is about a hundred seventy-five
lower in total enrollment. There are 206 students in grades
nine through twelve. This puts them below—well, for ex
ample, the figure of having a hundred seniors, graduating
- 5 7 -
seniors, per year. This puts them below this figure;
whereas, Riverside is probably just about medium. Maybe
a little bit less. If you are talking in terms of program,
you probably would assume that Riverside could offer,
with this kind of enrollment, a more comprehensive pro
gram than Louisburg.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1073a
Q. If that is true, would Louisburg benefit by having
a greater number of pupils and teachers! A. I would say,
yes.
Q. Now, when we are talking about Youngsville and
Perry’s and Gold Sand, and so on, you indicated that the
consolidation would be beneficial because basically the
schools are too small to offer the general diversified courses.
Is that true at Louisburg and Riverside to the same ex
tent? A. Not to the same—repeat your question, please.
Q. Well, is the problem of having too small classes to
offer diversified courses at an economic rate more or less
acute with respect as to Louisburg and Riverside than with
respect to the rural schools? A. I would say less acute.
Q. Now, Mr. Stormer, tell us some possible ways in which
the crowding imbalance, as between Louisburg and River
side, could be adjusted. What have you to bring in about
optimum educational opportunities to the students of both
- 5 8 -
schools ?
Deposition of William L. Stormer
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form.
Mr. Schwelb: (To Witness) You can answer.
A. Well, one of the methods might be to establish a uni
form capacity or method of computing capacity through
out the County, and when enrollments exceed this in ca
pacity, or exceed a capacity at a given school, then the
youngsters be transferred to a school where the pupils
could be accommodated with more ease. Another one, to
shift the portables to where—to areas where overcrowd
ing exists.
Q. Well, when you say shift, the authority part, would
there be some way of adjusting acreage per pupil, for
1074a
example! A. You could put portables where—at school
sites which would more easily accommodate them by having
a larger acreage.
Q. As between Eiv-erside and Louisburg where would
that be! A. At Louisburg.
Q. As between Cedar Street and Louisburg where would
that be? A. At Louisburg.
Q. Now, let me ask you whether there will be any possi
bility in the junior high or high school grade centers with
- 5 9 -
respect to those two schools—Louisburg and Riverisde?
A. It is a possibility that you could operate a junior high
in one and a senior high in another. Again, I would have
to qualify that by saying that this would presume your
educational program for the junior high school pupils
would shift in emphasis from being self-contained class
rooms to block type instruction in order to get better
utilization out of the school facilities.
Q. Mr. Stormer, suppose that the uniform capacities
were introduced and the portable classrooms were moved
basically from Louisburg to Riverside, in accordance with
the possibilities that you have just discussed, would that
make recommendable a movement of some teachers from
Riverside to this school? A. You would presume so.
Q. Because— A. Teachers would follow the pupils.
Q. And, of course, some pupils would also move from
Riverside to Louisburg? A. Yes.
Q. Now, let’s talk a little bit about—strike that, please.
In other areas of the country that you have been what
is the most common way of assigning pupils that you are
—6 0 -
familiar with, in school areas? A. Most common way of
assigning pupils? Well, zoned into attendance areas.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1075a
Q. Now, I ’d like to discuss with you a little bit, or have
you discuss for the Court, the application of that principle
of attendance zones in Franklin County. Now, let’s take,
for example, Epsom School. Under the study that you
made, which is contained in Government Exhibit 2, is the
Epsom School under-pupilled or over-pupilled, or, in other
words, too few or too many. A. Too few.
Q. Now, would you assume, in answering the next ques
tion, that the record in this case shows that there are
Negro pupils in the general area of Epsom School that
are bussed to Riverside, which is some distance away, in
Franklin County. Now, if those pupils in the—Negro pupils
in the Epsom area were to attend Epsom instead of River
side would that be a benefit or detriment to the educational
program at Epsom? A. Presuming it would be a benefit
in the sense that it would—well, two senses—one, that you
would get better utilization of the facilities and, two, the
larger enrollment, and this depends on how many young
sters it would be—would allow—promote a more diversified
- 6 1 -
program being offered at Epsom.
Q. If there were any substantial number of these Negro
pupils, would—what, if any, corresponding faculty assign
ment would normally follow? A. I can’t answer that. I
don’t know.
Q. Supposing a hundred pupils from Riverside were to
attend Epsom, who previously attended Riverside, would
that increase or decrease a need for teachers at Epsom?
A. At the high school level it would—well, high school and
elementary—it would increase the need for teachers.
Q. And would it increase or decrease at Riverside the
need for teachers, if a hundred pupils were assigned to
there? A. Again, well, the presumption would be that it
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1076a
would decrease the number, but this would depend on
program and class loading. That I can’t answer.
Q. Other things being equal, that Riverside had 1300
pupils instead of 1400 students, would it need more or less
—ten to thirteen hundred pupils need more or fewer
teachers than fourteen hundred pupils! A. Again, the
same kind of presumption. You would assume it would be
less, the number of teachers. Again, there are program
ramifications in here which you’ve got to consider, too.
—62—
Q. Let me ask you this: supposing Negro pupils living
in the vicinity of Epsom School were to attend Epsom
School rather than ride to Louisburg to attend Louisburg
School, would that be costlier or less costly to the School
Board with respect to transportation! A. With respect to
transportation to Epsom—to Riverside versus living in
Epsom and attending Epsom, I ’d assume it would be less
expensive to the School Board.
Q. Now, assume that, from the evidence that is already
in this case, that there are Negro pupils in the Youngsville
area who are in the high school area who went to Riverside,
and that no Negro pupils attend Youngsville High School
in neither the high school or the elementary grades, would
the same transportation factor be present there! A. Yes.
Q. Generally speaking, in Franklin County, if the stu
dents were assigned to the nearest school, what would be
the effect of the cost of transportation! A. You would
assume that it would be lower than it is currently.
Q. Why would that be! A. You wouldn’t have to bus
the youngsters as far. You actually might achieve some
—6 3 -
walk to youngsters which you are not able to achieve now.
Q. Now, assuming, for the sake of argument only, that
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1077a
the school district were to be operated—continue to he op
erated under the freedom of choice system, as between the
same schools that are now in the system under each of those
schools operating the same grades that it now operates,
do you know of any manner in which the imbalance, as far
as overcrowding is concerned, could be redressed to some
extent within that system? A. Well, this would go back
to an answer earlier in the morning, and that would be that
the establishment of a uniform policy of capacities would
allow some—would permit the identification of the school
which is being overcrowded by free choice, and that these
youngters—those which are going to be in excess of the
capacity—whatever it is—would be shifted to schools where
there was space available.
Q. And I think you testified earlier with respect to pos
sibility of moving movable classrooms. Would that still
apply? A. This is a possibility under free choice.
Q. Supposing the portable classrooms be moved to those
plants which have the greatest room for them in terms of
acreage, and supposing uniform capacity was then com-
—64—
puted, would that require the moving of a substantial num
ber of students from Riverside? A. Well, you have—
what—nine portables at Riverside, and if you figure on the
twenty-five pupils per classroom, this would be—what—
225.
Q. And, of course, in addition to that I think you testi
fied that Riverside was more crowded even with the por
table classrooms? A. Yes, right.
Q. How many classrooms would be left in Riverside if
the portables were removed? A. There would be forty-
one.
Q. Well, assuming that number twenty-five, what would
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1078a
be the proper number of pupils at Riverside—twenty-five
times forty-one? Would that be 1,025, or not? A. Yes.
Well, I say yes. You’ve got—roughly, yes. But you’ve got
special facilities at Riverside which are not accommodat
ing the twenty-five youngsters, so this is—
Q. Well, let me ask you the same question again. Taking
that uniform basis and objective assignment proposition,
do you believe that a substantial movement away from
Riverside would be necessary to achieve this objective
crowding standard, or would be advisable? A. If a uni-
—6 5 -
form policy were established, yes. This is a—
Q. How many students are now at Riverside on the
projected— A. On the projected, I think it is fourteen
over one.
Q. And on the formula you just computed, it would be
a little over a thousand? A. Well, yes, a little over a thou
sand. It would be about twelve hundred.
Q. Would the same factors be computable from your ta
bles with respect to Perry’s also? A. Yes.
Q. And with respect to other schools that have portable
equipment? A. Yes.
Q. Now7, coming to a conclusion of the examination, Mr.
Stormer, I’d like to ask you this: in making your observa
tions as to more effective utilization of the school equipment
and the school facilities in Franklin County, have you—in
your testimony so far have you considered the question
of race at all? A. No.
Q. Have you answered questions just simply on what
would be the most effective way— A. No, I have not con
sidered race.
Q. From common knowledge? A. Yes.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
— 6 6 —
1079a
Q. Let me ask you if Bunn and Gethsemane were paired,
as you indicated, for example, would that have the effect
of increasing or decreasing facility desegregation under
normal circumstances?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. The presumption is that it would increase faculty in
tegration or desegregation.
Q. What would be the presumption? A. The presump
tion is that it would increase desegregation.
Q. And the disposition of more uniform objective num
bers of students in each school and the placement of por
table equipment in those areas which have more room for
them—would that ordinarily, you think, increase or de
crease desegregation? A. It would increase.
Q. So is it true, or not, that the suggestions that you
have made, or the observations that you made, both—let
me rephrase that question. In terms of desegregation and
in terms of better utilization of the facilities of the schools,
what would be the effect of some of your suggestions on
the Franklin County school system—would it be affirma-
—67—
tive, negative, or what? A. I think it would be affirma
tive.
Q. Let me ask you do you have any doubt about that?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. No, I don’t have any doubt.
Mr. Schwelb: I have no further questions of the
witness.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1080a
Direct Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Stormer, I want to show yon, or ask that you
look again at Government’s Exhibit 2, at the second page
of that exhibit. Now, in the column of estimated enroll
ment, this shows the projected enrollment for 1967-68! A.
Bight.
Q. And in the last three columns you say this is the ca
pacity as you determine it, using the suggested figures of
twenty-five! A. Right.
Q. What is the other figure! A. Twenty, twenty-five,
and thirty, with some adjustment for special subjects.
Q. Can you explain that? A. Some adjustments for
special subjects? Yes, sir. In home economics some schools
may have units for two units, which would accommodate
— 68-
four pupils, each, which would be a total of eight, and in
foods laboratories, other spots, have three. Maybe four
home economics units, which would accommodate, I ’d say,
four pupils each, so that you could operate twelve to six
teen pupils at these foods laboratories.
Q. I call your attention to this footnote two on this same
page, which appears beside Gethsemane, Perry’s and River
side and Youngsville—this refers to an ungraded section
per school plant. How was this figured in in the capacity
figures you have listed here! A. I figured the capacity
of the ungraded as being less than the twenty, twenty-five,
and thirty. I think I used ten, fifteen, and twenty being
maximum. Hold on a second. Okay. Special education.
At ten, fifteen, and twenty—well—
Q. The ungraded section would refer to the special edu
cation? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know the number of special education classes
or ungraded sections that they have at these schools listed
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1081a
here? A. It is my understanding that there is only one
ungraded class in each of those schools, and the enrollment
ranks—well, averages probably fifteen.
—69—
Q. I call your attention to your attachment one in this
exhibit. A. Okay.
Q. You list down here as the overall, or I guess the total
given to the various schools, that Cedar Street has 301 and
Youngsville Elementary 337, and in your attachment or ex
planation for these determinations which appears four
pages following that, or five pages following that, you
show that Cedar Street is a frame wooden building, fire
rating combustible, and that Youngsville Elementary is a
frame wooden building, fire rating combustible. What in
your opinion would be the preferable future use of these
two structures, or the desirable future use of these two
structures? A. Ultimately, I suspect that that should be
abandoned. Their immediate use—Cedar Street probably
could be abandoned and absorbed elsewhere in the capacity
without too much hardship, the question arising in my mind
whether Youngsville could be abandoned immediately and
absorbed into Youngsville one to twelve. It may require
continued use for that building for a period of time.
Q. And the ultimate— A. The ultimate would be to
abandon both of them.
—70—
Q. Now, you have here on the second page of this exhibit
the projected enrollment of Cedar Street of 75? A. Yes.
Q. And in your opinion this could be abandoned immedi
ately with very little difficulty to the receiving school or
schools, is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. Now, I think you stated already that Cedar Street
is very near to Louisburg High School? A. Yes. I stated
it is close to Louisburg’ High School, right.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1082a
Q. And Louisburg High School—that is an elementary
department? A. Yes.
Q. Serving the same grades as the Cedar Street School?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, in your projected enrollment for 1967-68 you
show Youngsville Elementary as having a projected en
rollment of 143 students. That is on the second page. A.
Yes.
Q. And Youngsville Elementary is nearer to Youngs
ville High School, is that right? A. Eight.
Q. And Youngsville High School serves the same grades?
—71—
A. Yes.
Q. Now, in your projected enrollment for Youngsville
High School you show a projected enrollment of 299. A.
Eight.
Q. Now, you also show a reasonable capacity of 401. A.
Yes.
Q. And you show an emergency capacity of 486. A.
Eight.
Q. I will show you Exhibit A, attached to the answers
to interrogatories filed by the defendants, and ask you if
you would look there at the total enrollment of students
as of this year in the Yoiingsville Elementary School, and
I ask if you would state the number of students in the un
graded section? A. 16.
Q. The number of students in the first grade? A. 15.
Q. The number of students in the second grade? A. 20.
Q. And in the third grade? A. 12.
Q. In the fourth grade ? A. 12.
Q. In the fifth grade ? A. 15.
Q. And in the sixth grade? A. 15.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
—72—
1083a
Q. And in the seventh grade? A. 24.
Q. And in the eighth grade? A. 21.
Q. What other factors besides the mere number of stu
dents would you consider relevant—would you consider
relevant in deciding whether they merge Youngsville Ele
mentary School into the present Youngsville? A. What
other factors ? My understanding in the examination of the
Youngsville Elementary School—I say Youngsville Ele
mentary—one to twelve—is that there are six classrooms
used for elementary classroom purposes, with 122 enroll
ment. This is about 20 pupils per room. If the transfer
of all of the Youngsville Elementary pupils were brought
over to the Youngsville one to twelve, you would run about
—what—in the elementary grades one through six, 207.
And you may come up with a little bit of overcrowding, a
little in excess of 30 youngsters per classroom. And at this
basis shoot beyond the emergency capacity. Again, I tem
per this by saying that there might be some use of the high
school facilities, classrooms assigned to high school, for
—73—
elementary purposes, but I can’t be sure at this point
whether that would be effective. As a consequence you may
want to retain the Youngsville Elementary for a period of
time.
Q. Now, you indicate on this second page of the Govern-
ment’s Exhibit that Youngsville Elementary School also has
a mobile class unit? A. Yes.
Q. Which, as I understand your testimony earlier, would
preferably or more desirably be assigned to the Youngs
ville High School? A. In terms of acres, size of site, yes.
Q. And if this were done, this would add more classroom
space for the Youngsville High School students? A. Grades
one to twelve, yes.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1084a
Q. And would it also reduce the number of students per
class— A. Yes.
Q. That would be at Youngsville High School! A. Yes.
Q. If the Youngsville Elementary students were assigned
there? A. Yes.
Q. In your attachment one, where you are rating the
school plants, you indicate that the overall rating for Lou-
—74—
isburg is about average? A. Eight.
Q. What would the figures 485 be—where would that fall
in terms of average? A. Slightly below. I mean there is
flexibility here because—I would consider it below aver
age.
Mr. Schwelb: You mean national average?
A. Well, in terms of that arrangement.
B y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. You mean in—what are you using in terms of a norm
or average? A. Well, assuming that the schools would
rank upwards, say, 800 for above average, somewhere be
tween six and seven, five to seven for average, four to five
for below average, and less for an unsatisfactory.
Q. Now, you prefaced your remark with ‘assuming.’ Are
the figures you gave the figures that are considered aver
age, above average, below average ? A. In using this par
ticular norm, yes.
Mr. Schwelb: Do you mind if I interject some
questions here? I am not sure I understood his tes
timony.
Mr. Chambers: All right.
Deposition of William, L. Stormer
1085a
D ep o s itio n o f W illiam L . S to rm er
B y M r. S ch w e lb :
Q. When you say ‘average’ you are not talking about
average in the Franklin County system, are you? A. No.
—75—
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. You are talking about average in some broader— A.
Broader sense.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. You are not saying that Louisburg is an average
school in Franklin County? A. No. Louisburg is not the
average school in Franklin County.
B y M r. C h am bers—continuing:
Q. Again, for my own edification, attachment two, show
ing the utilization of the schools in the school system— A.
Right.
Q. As determined by the capacity level of the various
schools— A. As determined by using reasonable capacity
level, the percentage of the reasonable capacity enrollment.
Q. Now, just to go a little bit simpler, could I say that,
by your figure here, that Youngsville Elementary exceeds
its capacity by one hundred two, point one percent? A.
Here in the total column?
Q. In the total column. A. No. Well, it exceeds it by
two point one percent. One hundred would be the absolute
capacity.
Q. I see. Now, going to attachment three of this exhibit,
—76—
the C. 0. period average there would mean the county aver
age ? A. Right.
1086a
Q. And the schools below that, in the total column, which
is the first column, would he those schools that are above
the county average? A. Eight.
Q. And the second column refers to the elementary
classes? A. Right, grades one to six.
Q. And the third column refers to the high school or the
grades seven through twelve? A. Bight, grades seven
through twelve.
Q. Going to the attachment four, in the third column
here you have the room—this refers to the number of class
rooms. This refers to the number of classrooms? A. Yes.
Q. Now, are you including in this number vocational
classes? A. That’s right.
Q. Do you also include auditorium? A. No.
Q. Do you include cafeteria? A. No.
Q. Do you include gymnasium? A. No.
—77—
Q. In your examination of the system did you find any
school that used the gymnasium or the auditorium for
classroom purposes? A, Not to my knowledge. May I re
tract—retrace my steps on that? There was one example
where a classroom appeared to be set up on the gymnasium
or the auditorium stage at Youngsville. That is the only
one that I can recall.
Q. I was going to call your attention to footnote two.
Youngsville, which— A. Youngsville Elementary. There
appeared to be a make-shift classroom. And I don’t know
what grades. I presume grades seven and eight or grade
eight at Youngsville Elementary. This is not—not included
in this capacity.
Q. Now, in the number you have listed for rooms do you
include libraries? A. No.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1087a
Q. In yonr observation did you find any school using- a
library for a classroom! A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Now, in separating* these schools into elementary and
high school by rooms, you are reflecting only the present
—7 8 -
use! A. Right.
Q. Or utilization! A. Right.
Q. It is possible, isn’t it, for the school to use the class
rooms listed here for high school for elementary purposes,
or the classes listed for the elementary for high school pur
poses? A. In some instances, yes. This would not be true
for classrooms, which are designed specifically for science,
home economics. So for the general purpose classrooms
the answer would be yes. This could be interchangeable.
Q. Now, you indicated that at Riverside you say the gym
nasium which—was also used for auditorium purposes? A.
Correct.
Q. And that this was on one floor; that is, the gym
nasium, and the auditorium— A. Yes.
Q. On another floor was what—a classroom; there are
some classrooms? A. Yes, I think eight classrooms are
located on the ground floor of the Riverside gymnasium
building. Eight classrooms, right.
Q. Eight classrooms are located in the gymnasium? A.
—7 9 -
Gymnasium building. By the way, this is “Gym-Aud” and
not “ Gym-And” . The word ‘cafeteria’ should come down on
the line with the figure 1960. There are two separate build
ings. This gymnasium-auditorium one, which is one, and
one is the cafeteria.
Mr. Schwelb: We will have that typographical
error changed on the original. This is gym-audi-
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1088a
torium, and cafeteria should drop down. The 1960
corresponds to the cafeteria?
A. To the cafeteria.
B y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Mr. Stormer, you had an opportunity to go around
and look at all the school buildings, did you not? A. Yes.
Q. Now, could you compare the ground area for the Riv-
erside School with the ground area for the Louisburg
School? I am not talking about in terms of acreage. A. In
terms of surface?
Q. Yes. A. The ground area at Louisburg School is gen
erally a grassed area, some turf; whereas, Riverside is
maybe a little bit grass but most of it is bare ground,
evidencing soil erosion; one spot that I particularly noted
was the area between the high school building and the port
ables. There is evidence of ground erosion at this point,
—80—
and it is mud rather than grass, although the day we were
there they had just completed a new concrete walk past the
new portable or the portable locations.
Q. Now, at Riverside there are several buildings, is that
correct ? A. Right.
Q. I think you mentioned in your report—indicates that
you have a high school building and the high school build
ing is separate from the elementary building? A. That’s
right.
Q. And you have an auditorium and gymnasium? A. Yes,
right.
Q. In a separate building? A. Right.
Q. And the cafeteria is a separate building? A. Sepa
rate building.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1089a
Q. Did you notice any walkways between all of these
buildings, any cement walkways? A. There are drives for
vehicles. Pd have to plead that I don’t recall.
Q. Now, at the— A. The only one I can recall is this
new walk that swung out past the portables. I don’t re
member the others.
Q. Do you recall whether you had cement walkways at
—81—
the Louisburg School? A. Yes.
Q. Between the various buildings? A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall whether you had covered passageways ?
A. Covered passageways?
Mr. Schwelb: Where?
B y M r. C h a m b ers:
Q. At the Louisburg School? A. No, sir.
B y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. In your description of the land area at the Riverside
School, would it be hilly or level or— A. It is up on an
incline from the main road. There is an extreme difference
in terrain between the vo-ag—let’s see, the vo-ag building
and the auditorium behind that, there is a steep rise with
a steel retaining wall, and on the upper level is the ele
mentary. If you swing over to the left of it, if you are
facing the gymnasium building, to the left is a brick frame
building for elementary school purposes, and up this incline
again is this rather steep grade, and you have the cafe
teria, which is part way up this grade—the cafeteria and
boiler room. The main elementary building and the main
high school building is the only one I think that is split
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1090a
Deposition of William L. Stormer
—8 2 -
level. There is a stairway as you enter the building itself,
the office being on the left. There is a stairway—I say a
stairway, a flight of steps, six or seven, so it is split level
to some degree. But the terrain is less level than that found
at Louisburg.
Q. Would that be true of—strike that. Did you notice
a material difference in the upkeep of the land area at the
Riverside School as compared to the Louisburg School! A.
As I indicated, one is turfed, grass, and the other is more
bare soil. The other being Riverside.
Q. Did you notice the athletic facilities at the Riverside
School, the outdoor athletics! A. No. The visit to River
side was at night. I did get a quick eyeview, but this is-—
I can’t make a comparison, other than the fact that I did
see photographs of the Riverside site from a play area.
Q. Did you have a chance to compare or view the terrain
at the Youngsville Elementary and the Youngsville High
School! A. Yes. Again, it was a little easier to see the
Youngsville Elementary and Youngsville one to twelve, be
cause we passed there in the daytime. Their sites are not
—83—
so large you can’t see them. I ’d say they were comparable
terrain-wise.
Q. Did you get a chance to see the land area at Geth-
semane and Bunn! A. Yes.
Q. Did you notice a material difference between the land
area, and upkeep of the land at Bunn and Perry’s School!
A. Bunn and—
Q. Bunn and Gethsemane School? A. Yes, sir, there is
a difference. If you are looking off to the—what would it
be—the south of the Bunn School, there is a play area.
The Bunn School is a campus layout which exhibits some
1091a
grass areas. The Gethsemane School is set back off the
road. The play area is oil to the rear of the building and
it is, again, turfed. And I am thinking in particular in
behind the elementary school, behind the elementary—I
guess it is—behind the high school, too, behind it is a bare
turf soil, particularly behind the elementary, is dispersed
with a residue of a coal pile. There was a grove of trees
off to the rear of the building, with some benches, hut the
actual play area appears to be less adequate at Gethsemane
—84—
than at Bunn.
Q. Did you have occasion to observe the Perry and Ed
ward Best Schools? A. Perry?
Q. Perry and Edward Best. A. Perry and Edward Best,
the two Best’s, yes. The two Best’s—well I can answer yes
to both. I did observe the conditions at these schools.
Q. In your opinion was the land area at Edward Best
in better condition than the land area at Perry’s? A. Think
ing in terms of the high school at—
Q. Both the high school and the elementary school. A.
You have more turf at the—more turf, more grass area at
the Edward Best School than you do at the Perry’s School.
Q. Would that be true of the Gold Sand School? A.
Yes.
Q. You have more grass at the Gold Sand School than
at Perry’s? A. Yes.
Q. Would you have better play ground area at Gold Sand
than at Perry’s School?
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form.
Deposition of William L. Stormer
A. May I look at my notes?
1092a
D ep o s itio n o f W illiam L . S to rm er
B y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Yes, sir. A. I believe you can state that there is a
—8 5 -
better play area at Gold Sand than at Perry’s. I qualify
this by saying I am not sure what the limitations of the
site boundaries were at Perry’s. I will stand at that point.
Q. Now, you have given your opinion about the condi
tions and the size of the various schools, and you have
stated that you feel that by some method of reorganization
you could get more desirable utilization of the various
schools. If you were considering the use of Gold Sand and
Perry’s, the two schools serving the same grades and in
close proximity of each other, do you have an opinion as
to how these schools could be better utilized? A. Well, I
think this is as stated. This was stated earlier. That you
could through consolidation over, say, grades seven through
nine, junior high school program at one school, and a senior
high school program at another school, and continue to
operate an elementary school program, one through six, at
both centers. There are other combinations that are pos
sible, too.
Q. Now, would your figures here show whether the
schools were organized as you have just stated they might
be, the capacity of the schools would be sufficient to justify
—86—
or hold all of these students that might be transferred?
A. I think this requires further study actually. I think the
figures—you might arrive at some conclusions from the fig
ures, plus running a breakdown on the projections grade
by grade, but you have a couple of other variables that
play or impose on this, and one is educational program
and the other is the number of youngsters who are cur
1093a
rently residing in this area, attending schools outside of
this area, which would ultimately come back in the area,
so I think before you could arrive at any conclusion you
would have to continue study. A rough opinion at this
point is that I don’t see any—any limitations imposed by
the plants themselves upon using this kind of arrangement.
Q. You mean the kind of arrangement you stated awhile
ago ? A. Eight.
Q. Would that be true also of Gethsemane and Bunn? A.
Yes.
Q. Would it be true also of Youngsville Elementary and
Youngsville High School? A. I think you would have to
—you can make some adjustments there, but you’d have to
—8 7 -
study it a little more in detail.
Q. Could you describe the area where Cedar Street
School is located? A. Well, Cedar Street is—what—a mile
or so off the road to Louisburg. If you are entering Louis-
burg from the north, it would be off to the west side. As
you go down this road itself, the—Cedar Street School sits
back on the left-hand side, up a little rise, behind—what
you want to call it—woods. Actually, it is a rather pic
turesque setting. To the right of it and down in a hollow
is a little reservoir or lake or pond. As you go in the road
or enter the school plant site, a cemetery is noticeable right
up to the edge of the road. The building is a frame build
ing and off to the right of it, as you are facing it, is a
portable classroom. The wooded area generally surrounds
the building on three sides. Off to the—what would it be—
the east. And drop off into a play area. There is a ditch
running between the building and this play area, a drain
age ditch of some type.
Q. Could you describe the area around Louisburg School?
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1094a
A. Around Louisburg you are facing into a—a white frame
building, the play area.
Q. Are you talking about Louisburg School! A. I am
— 88—
talking about Youngsville Elementary. Pardon me. You
are asking about Louisburg?
Q. Yes. A. Again, this is—what—across—a little below
and across from the hospital. It is in a residential area.
The site is below the road, as you approach the school, off
to the left-hand side, the south side of the road. You enter
it. It is campus. The elementary is closest to the main
road. The high school, the high school building, sits up on
a little rise, and its general use facilities are in the forward
portion of the site, the portion closest to the road. And
then off to the extreme of the—what—west would be a
lighted football stadium, and beyond that would be a base
ball field, which apparently is lighted for night playing.
There are some tennis courts setting up on the—what
would it be—west. Tennis courts setting west of the boiler
house and the gymnasium.
Q. Could you describe briefly the area surrounding Riv
erside School? A. The area surrounding Riverside, again,
is off to the west of the main road. You enter through an
area which shows light industry of some description or
another. A lumber yard is off to the left as you enter.
—89—
There are some commercial, light industry buildings as you
approach the school, the school sites, upon the south side
of the road. Again, your general use facilities are down
closest to the road. As you look at the site from the road,
you will find the high school, and the elementary school
up on the back portion of the site. A portion of one ele
mentary building down to the right of the boiler and cafe
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1095a,
teria buildings. If yon went around behind the site, you
would find a low income residential area, and the view
through from this area to the school is negligible.
Q. Mr. Stormer, by the Government’s Exhibit 1 and your
testimony you have several schools in close proximity of
each other, serving the same grades, which you say have
a number of disadvantages, and I ask you do you know of
any reason or purpose that would justify the continuance
of this type of situation? A. I know of no reason.
Q. Do you know why such arrangements would exist in
a school system? A. No. The only reason I can assume it
exists is for segregation.
Q. Now have you heard—you stated that you had seen
several school districts in your work. Have you observed
—90—
of any such arrangement in any other school district? A.
Not to this extent.
Q. Will you explain what you mean by ‘not to this ex
tent’ ? A. Not to the extent that they are as close to each
other as they are here, building sites and school plant sites.
Q. Would the fact that they are close to each other make
it easier to have some type of rearrangement as you have
testified previously? A. I think so.
Mr. Chambers: I have no further questions.
(Discussion off record)
(Reporter’s Note: Cross-examination of Mr.
Stormer was not conducted at this time.)
Mr. Schwelb: The Government would like to in
troduce as Government’s Exhibit 3 to the deposition
of Mr. Stormer a series of photographs of the Frank
Deposition of William L. Stormer
1096a
lin County Schools, together with an index prepared
by Special Agent Richard R. Goldberg.
Mr. Yarborough has stated that he agrees to the
authenticity of these pictures, subject to the right
of Mr. Smith to check the pictures, to check the cor
rectness of the index. He does not waive any objec
tion to admissibility, but agrees to the authenticity
of the pictures and that they truly represent what
they purport to represent.
Witness excused.
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
— 2—
A rthur L. Morgan being first duly affirmed, was ex
amined and testified as follows:
D ire c t E xa m in a tion b y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Would you state your full name for the record,
please, sir! A. Arthur—Reverend Arthur L. Morgan.
—3—
Q. Where do you live, Reverend Morgan! A. Youngs-
ville, North Carolina.
Q. What is your occupation, please! A. Ministry.
Q. Do you have any other occupation in addition! A.
Yes. I work with the Royal Mills at Wake Forest.
Q. What is your age! A. 56.
Q. And what is your race! A. Negro.
Q. Now, Reverend Morgan, do you have any school-age
children living with you that you look after? A. Yes.
Q. Would you tell the people here their names, please,
and the school and grade which they attend! A. Delores
Green, junior. Deshon Williams, freshman. Corliss Marie
Green—she is in the eighth grade. Now, I could be off
on some of those grades a little bit.
1097a
Q. What schools do Delores and Deshon go to? A.
Riverside.
Q. Is that in Louisburg? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What school does Corliss go to! A. Youngsville.
—4—
Q. Are you married, Reverend Morgan? A. Yes.
Q. What is your wife’s name! A. Willette W. Morgan.
Q. What is her occupation! A. Teaching.
Q. What school is she teaching? A. Youngsville Ele
mentary.
Q. You mentioned that Delores and Deshon attend River
side School. A. Yes.
Q. Do you live inside the city limits of Youngsville?
A. Yes.
Q. What is the nearest high school to their homes? A.
Youngsville High.
Q. Approximately how far is that from your home?
A. Two-tenths of a mile.
Q. Is it walking distance? A. Yes.
Q. The schools which these two older students attend,
Riverside, how far is that from your house approximately?
A. Approximately twelve miles.
Q. How do they go to that school? A. By bus.
—5—
Q. Do you know approximately how long it takes them to
get there? A. It takes them about forty-five minutes, I
believe. Something—approximately that.
Q. That one way! A. One way.
Q. And they travel there and back? A. Yes.
Q. Reverend Morgan, are there other Negro high school
age children in Youngsville? A. Yes.
Q. Where do they go to school, as far as you know?
A. Riverside.
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
1098a
Q. Are there white high school age children in the
Youngsville area! A. Yes.
Q. And where do they go to school! A. Youngsville
High.
Q. Is there any predominantly Negro school in Youngs
ville! A. No, sir.
Q. Now, did you and your wife receive freedom of choice
forms for these children last year! A. Yes.
—6—
Q. Now, the schools chosen were the ones which they
are attending, is that right! A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you desire that your older children travel
twelve to fourteen miles to school every day! A. No.
Q. Let me ask you, with respect to your younger child,
is it your belief that Youngsville Elementary School
is a good school!
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. I don’t know.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. What kind of school is it! A. Second grade.
Q. Did you think it satisfactory! A. Not to me.
Q. Tell us why it is not satisfactory! A. Well, several
reasons. First of all, there is not enough grades, and the
facilities are inadequate there.
Q. Do you have some specific facilities— A. Yes. The
dining room isn’t a fitten place to eat. The bathrooms
are not sanitary. So far as the running water, the flowing
water through the bathrooms, this is true. But the bath
rooms are a little tached on something like to the building,
somewhat.
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
1099a
Q. Now, let me ask yon: are you familiar with any
incidents of any kind directed towards Negroes and Negro
parents who have children attending predominantly white
schools in Franklin County and in the general area! A.
Yes.
Q. Let me ask you, for instance, whether you know or
have heard of Reverend Luther Coppedge? A. Yes.
Q. Have you heard of any incidents involving him! A.
Yes.
Q. What incidents have you heard of? A. Nails strewn
in his driveway and bombs and other intimidations that
I could not name.
Q. Have you heard of—do you personally know all the
people to whom the incidents have happened! A. Yes,
I know them.
Q. What I am asking you is this: can you enumerate
out of your own mind every incident that has happened?
A. Oh, no. No.
Q. What kind of incidents have you heard of! A. That
is what I meant when I said intimidations. Threats,
bombings, and nails strewn in the driveway, and people
driving along the road. This is what I meant. People
—8—
riding along the road shooting at houses.
Q. Have you heard whether or not any homes have been
shot into where the children attended predominantly white
schools! A. Yes.
Q. Do you happen to know the names of the people to
whom that have happened? A. I know Mrs. Arrington
who said that her home was shot in.
Q. Now, do you know—do you have an impression as to
whether or not the Ku Klux Elan is active in Franklin
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
— 7—
1100a
County, or has been active from what you have heard
and read! A. Yes.
Q. Do you believe the Ku Klux Klan to be favorable or
unfavorable to desegregation? A. Unfavorable.
Q. Generally speaking, is the white community as a
whole favorable to desegregation or unfavorable? A. Gen
erally speaking, no. They are unfavorable.
Q. Now, what is the reason that you have assigned your
children who live with you, and for whom you act, to the
schools that you assigned them to? A. Going to school
— 9—
is a full-time job within itself, without being harassed and
intimidated by threats and other harassment that would
keep a person from studying and learning well, and be
cause of that we have assigned them to the same school
that they were previously going to.
Q. Would you expect any intimidation going to a Negro
school? A. Say that again.
Q. If the children were going to a Negro school, would
you expect any intimidation? A. No.
Q. Have you had any intimidation? A. No.
Q. Suppose they went to a predominantly white school,
would you have any way of knowing whether you would
be intimidated? A. No more than what have happened
to others.
Q. Under those circumstances do you think you have a
truly free choice in this? A. Under such circumstances,
no. I think we have had a free chance with a fixed at
mosphere.
Q. And what is that fixed atmosphere? A. I think the
atmosphere has been fixed in a green light on over there
where you came from.
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
1101a
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
—10—
Q, You are a minister. Do you believe that you are the
only person that thinks that way?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form,
A. No, sir.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Let me ask you—let me ask you whether or not you
ordinarily discuss with your wife the problems of—im
portant problems as to her work! A. Yes.
Q. Now, have you ever discussed with your wife—has
she ever brought to your attention any requests that have
been made to her to transfer to a predominantly white
school to teach? A. Say that again.
Q. Has she ever brought to your attention any request
that anybody made to her to teach at a predominantly
white school? A. No, sir.
Q. If you know. If your wife were assigned to a predom
inantly white school to teach, would she be prepared to
do so? A. Yes.
Q. If you know. Would your wife be prepared to volun
teer on—on her initiative? A. No.
Q. Why not? A. Well, for the fear of intimidation.
— 11—
The same thing.
Q. Let me ask you: apart from the incidents in Franklin
County, have you read in the Ealeigh newspapers about
any similar incidents in the neighboring counties? A.
Yes.
Q. What county do you preach in? A. In Wake County
now.
1102a
Q. Have you heard of any such incidents in Wake
County? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know the type of incidents, what it was, and
if you recall the name of the person to whom it is said
to have happened! A. I know about Mr. High. I know
about it, reading about it and listening to the news. Mr.
High’s well was polluted.
Q. And let me ask you whether you have heard of any
incidents involving the Franklinton schools? A. Yes.
Q. What incidents have you heard of? A. Bus dis
turbance and other bombing threats, and so forth.
Q. Do you happen to know the name of the person to
whom the bombing threats happened? A. No, I don’t
- 1 2 -
know.
Q. How far is Youngsville from Franklinton? A. Six
miles.
Q. Do incidents that happen in Franklinton become
known to the Negroes of Youngsville? A. Ordinarily.
Q. Now, Reverend Morgan, would it, from your com-
monsense—
Mr. Yarborough: We will object to the form—
‘commonsense’.
Mr. Schwelb: I will withdraw it.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q, Do you believe it would cost the County more or less
money if your children went to Youngsville High School
instead of Riverside High School—the older children?
A. All of them are not in high school.
Q, The older children went to the Youngsville High
School instead of being bussed to Riverside? A. I think
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
1103a
it would be much cheaper on the County or everybody
to go to Youngsville School.
Q. Would you have any objection to the children being
assigned to Youngsville School! A. None at all.
Q. Would you have any objection to the children using—
I will withdraw that question. It doesn’t apply.
Mr. Schwelb: I have no further questions.
—13—
Mr. Chambers: I have no questions.
C ross-E xa m in a tion toy M r. Y a r b o r o u g h :
Q. How long have you lived in Youngsville! A. Eight
years.
Q. Where did you move from! A. Nash County.
Q. How long has your wife been teaching in Youngsville?
A. Since 1963.
Q. She works for the Franklin County Board of Edu
cation, doesn’t she? A. Right.
Q. And this is her fourth year there? A. No, not for
the Board of Education.
Q. I am talking about teaching in Youngsville! A.
Yes.
Q. Who did she teach for before she went to work for
the Board of Education? A. Nobody. She’s been teaching
for the Board of Education in Franklin County all the
time.
Q. This is the fourth year there? A. In Youngsville.
Q. Where did she teach prior to Youngsville? A. At
Gethsemane.
Q. At Gethsemane School. And you work for the Royal
Cotton Mills in Wake Forest? A. Yes.
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
1104a
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
—14—
Q. How long have yon worked there? A. I am just
a new hand.
Q. What do you mean by a new hand? A. Just started.
Q. How long ago? A. A week or so ago.
Q. What did you do prior to that, except preach? A.
Ministry. Nothing but preach.
Q. At what church do you preach? A. Wake Chapel
Baptist. I gave Wake Chapel awhile ago. Wake County.
I fill in sometimes. Hooks Grove.
Q. Mr. Morgan, Deshon Green—and how do you pro
nounce that? A. De-shon Williamson.
Q. Deshon Williams? A. Deshon Williamson.
Q. Deshon Williamson. What connection—what kin is he
to you? A. My sister-in-law’s children.
Q. Is that a boy or girl? A. A hoy, and a girl. Delores
is the girl.
Q. Delores Green? A. Yes.
Q. What kin is she to you? A. Same thing. Niece.
—15—
Q. And Delores Williamson is also your niece? A.
Deshon Williamson is my nephew.
Q. And Corliss Green— A. Is my niece.
Q. And where do their parents live? A. Delores and
Corliss’ parents live in Washington, D. C. They are
divorced. And Deshon’s parents live in Youngsville.
Q. Are they divorced? A. No.
Q. Now, who made the choice for Delores for this cur
rent school year? A. I think Delores made it. If you
will accept it—I think.
Q. How about for the next school year? A. She still
made it.
1105a
Q. How about Deshon? A. My wife.
Q. How about Corliss? A. My wife.
Q. And they applied for the coining school year for a
certain school and they got that assignment, didn’t they?
A. Yes.
— 16—
Q. Now, how many times have you ever complained to
the Board of Education? A. I don’t complain.
Q. You never have? A. I don’t complain.
Q. Answer my question. How many times have you com
plained? A. I have never complained.
Q. To the Board of Education? A. No.
Q. About anything connected with the schools, have you?
A. No.
Q. And do you know Mr. Jones Winston? A. Yes.
Q. You know he is a member of the Board of Education?
A. I heard that he was by me being in Youngsville. I
have lived in Youngsville eight years. My work takes
me out of Youngsville, and I do not know the people much
more than I did eight years ago when I went there.
Q. So you don’t take any part much in the community?
A. I don’t have time. No.
Q. And you know Mr. Leewan Woodlief? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know that he was at one time a member of the
— 17-
County Board of Education! A. No, I did not.
Q. You know the principal of the school, the Youngsville
School? A. Yes.
Q. Have you ever complained to him about anything
connected with the school? A, Now what? What specific?
Q. Anything connected with the schools, any complaint?
A. No.
Q. Who is the principal now? A. Mr. G-arner.
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
1106a
Q. You know Mr. Olive Burrell! A. Burrell, yes.
Q. And he was the principal while your wife was teach
ing! A. Yes.
Q. And now Mr. Garner is principal! A. Yes.
Q. You never complained to Mr. Burrell! A. Never.
Q. And how did you get to be a witness here today!
A. I was subpoenaed.
Q. By the government? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did they know to subpoena you! A. That is
beyond my knowledge how they know it.
—18—
Q. Have you ever seen Mr. Schwelb before today? A.
I don’t know Mr. Schwelb.
Q. That man sitting there. A. Yes, I have seen him.
Q. Where was he? A. I don’t know. I saw him some
time ago and we talked together.
Q. Where? A. At my house.
Q. How long ago was it? A. A week or so, a week or
so.
Q. Do you know Mr. Chambers here? A. No.
Q. When was the last time you have seen Luther Cop-
pedge? A. I couldn’t tell you when the last time I saw
him was. He is a personal friend of mine.
Q. Did you see him yesterday? A. He is in school.
It may have been three months ago.
Q. Have you talked with him about this case in the last
thirty days? A. No.
Q. Have you ever talked to him about this case? A.
Not necessarily, but I have been in his presence when the
case was being discussed.
Q. And where was that? A. Sir?
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
— 19—
1107a
Q. Where was that? A. We was at an association some
time ago. Maybe this was last year. Together there. This
case was being discussed at the time, that these nails and
this harassment occurred.
Q. And that’s been a year ago, last year? A. Not a year
ago, but last year.
Q. Last year? A. Last year.
Q. And you haven’t been to another meeting with Luther
Coppedge since that that you can recall? A. I didn’t say
we was in a meeting. I say we was at an association and
this was discussed. Not publicly from the floor, but an
individual group.
Q. Now, why didn’t Deshon Williamson’s parents make
the choice for him? A. Deshon stayed with us.
Q. Have they abandoned him? A. No. He—
Q. Have they abandoned him? A. No. He has never
been abandoned. When my wife’s first husband died, he
started staying with her and he remained with us.
— 20—
Q. And Deshon’s mother and father are living in Youngs-
ville? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Delores has a living mother and father in Wash
ington? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Corliss has a living mother and father in Wash
ington? A. Yes.
Q. Both of their parents are living but they are being
educated down here? A. They actually stay with us,
yes.
Q. That is what I say. They are being educated here?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you or your wife adopted any one of the three
children? A. No.
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
1108a
Q. And yon say that the white community is unfavorable
to desegregation. Can you give us names? A. No, I
didn’t say that.
Q. What did you say? A. I said my opinion. I did not
make that directly—claim. My opinion, that the majority
of the white people are unfavorable.
Q. On what do you base your opinion that the majority
— 21—
of the people who live in Youngsville are opposed to
desegregation? A. By what we see and hear and these
newspapers, articles that come out in the newspaper, and
these regular programs that is stated, all the harassment
comes, and even right here in the County, when Reverend
Coppedge’s son was going to high school, when Mrs. Ar
rington’s children was going to school. That is what I base
it on.
Q. Who in Youngsville do you think, what person do you
think was connected with it? A. I didn’t think anybody
did.
Q. You said the white people in your community, didn’t
you? A. Yes.
Q. And that is the community in Youngsville? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Who do you think the white people in your com
munity are who are opposed to desegregation? A. I can’t
give names. I don’t know. I haven’t had that experience.
The reason why I haven’t had this, that experience, is
because we assigned these children back to the same
school.
Q. You say they are opposed to desegregation. A. My
opinion.
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
1109a
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
— 22—
Q. Have you seen anything in the newspaper to mention
anybody from the Youngsville community? A. No.
Q. Have you ever heard anything on the radio to men
tion any white person in the Youngsville community? A.
No. But I don’t have to see that.
Q. Well, what do you base your opinion on?
Mr. Schwelb: I will object to the way the ques
tions are being asked, and you are shouting to the
witness.
Mr. Chambers: You are shouting to the witness.
B y M r. Y arborough-.
Q. Finish your answer, please, sir. A. When I ride
along the street and see it written in the street—“no nig
gers are going to the school.”
Q. Where did you see that, on what street? A. On the
street, on the hard street in Youngsville.
Q. When did you see that? A. Last year.
Q. Do you remember the date? A. No, I don’t.
Q. Do you know who wrote that? A. No, I don’t.
Q. You don’t know whether a white person or who wrote
it? A. No, I don’t know who wrote it.
—23—
Q. So you are guessing it was a white man? A. No, I
am not guessing at all. I saw it.
Q. I ’m talking about you don’t know who wrote it?
A. I don’t know who wrote it.
Q. Where was it on the street? A. Written in, look like
you might say, flour.
Q. On what street in Youngsville? A. On the street
there by the white school.
1110a
Q. Was it during school hours? A. No, it was— when
was it? It was before the school opened for this term.
Q. How long before school opened? A. I don’t know
just exactly how long, but it was before.
Q. What street was it? A. I don’t know the name of
the street. It was right there before the school, whatever
street it is.
Q. On U. S. Highway #1? A. Just off the street that
protrudes from U. S. 1, and just off, going by the white
school.
Q. And I ask you again if you have any idea who wrote
that? A. No, I don’t know.
Q. How long did it stay there? A. I don’t know that,
because I have but very little bit of business in that part
of town.
—24—
Q. What business did you have on that day you did see
it? A. I don’t know because I made no note of it, but I
saw it.
Q. Where does that street lead? A. To—it leads to
the white cemetery and leads to some of—some of my
neighbors live in that part of the County. I could have
been visiting them.
Q. You don’t know what business you had on that oc
casion. When was it? A. It was early in the morning, or
in the afternoon. I don’t know. It was on one day.
Q. Who did you tell about having seen that? A. I didn’t
tell anybody. It was there for the public to see.
Q. Who have you told? A. This is the first time I have
ever told anybody about it, but it was there.
Q. And when that was done you had already made your
choice? A. Yes.
Q. For this school year? A. Yes.
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
1111a
Q. Or somebody bad made it for those children you are
taking care of? A. Yes, sir.
— 25—
Q. So that did not—what you say you saw on the road
or street did not influence you for that school year any
how, did it? A. No.
Q. Do you vote in this County? A. Yes.
Q. In Franklin County? A. Yes.
Q. You are registered and vote? A. Yes.
Q. What grade is this child Delores Green in at River
side? A. She is a junior.
Q. Do you know the number they put to a junior grade?
A. No.
Q. How about Deshon? A. Freshman.
Q. Freshman. And Corliss goes to the same school then
that your wife teaches? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether she’s filled in an application
for the coming school year? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether she ever told the principal
—26..... -
there that she would prefer to teach somewhere else?
A. Now, which one of those questions are you asking?
Q. I said do you know whether or not she’s ever told
the principal—
Mr. Schwelb: You are asking about his wife?
Mr. Chambers: You used Corliss in one of your
questions. You didn’t mean Corliss.
B y M r. Y a r b o r o u g h :
Q. I say you don’t know whether or not— A. You
asked me two questions.
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
1112a
Q. I erase those questions and ask you this: do you
know whether or not your wife has told the principal
in the school in which she teaches that she would prefer
to teach somewhere else? A. No.
Q. Do you know whether she’s done that? A. No.
Q. Has she ever told you—your wife ever told you that
she would prefer to teach somewhere else? A. No.
Q. How do you know she would teach somewhere else?
A. Yes.
Q. I say how do you know? A. How do I know it?
I only know it by the way—what she has said. She says
wherever the Board say for her to teach, she would teach.
— 27—
Q. So if the Board said for her to teach in Youngsville
Elementary, she is perfectly willing to? A. I didn’t use
that. I say she said wherever the Board said for her to
teach. I didn’t say she was willing.
Q. She has no complaint? A. She have no complaint
and this isn’t a complaint coming from her.
Q. And so far as you know then she is happy where she
is? A. Just as happy where she is, and she would be where
she would be if the Board said for her to go somewhere
else.
Q. How far does she live from the Youngsville Ele
mentary School? A. Less than a mile.
Q. One mile? A. Yes.
Q. And is there another school about a mile from your
house? A. Something. Half a mile.
Q. And the rest of the schools in the County system
are ten or more miles, aren’t they? A. Yes.
— 28—
Q. Sixteen or more miles, aren’t they? A. Well, I ’m
not—don’t go up there.
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
1113a
Q. How far is the nearest school from Youngsville!
A. Whatever the distance is here, here to Youngsville.
Q. Do you know the distance from Louishurg to Youngs
ville? A. No, sir. I say approximately twelve miles.
Q. And is your wife going to be a witness in this case
to speak for herself? A. No. No. And this is not a
complaint from her.
Q. Who said it was a complaint? A. I am just making
that statement.
Q. Just volunteering that statement, aren’t you? A.
This is not a complaint for her.
Q. She expects to teach next year in the County system?
A. She intends to teach.
Q. I don’t remember asking you whether she’s made an
application to teach next year? A. She has.
Q. She has? A. Yes.
Q. And you got through the mail about the first of
March, didn’t you—it came to your home—you and your
wife got through the mail about the first of March a
freedom of choice form for each of those children whom
—29—
live with you? A. Whenever it came, it came. The time
I don’t know.
Q. What was that? A. Whatever time it came, it came.
Q. And it had several sheets of an explanatory letter
in it? A. I don’t know. I didn’t read it.
Q. You didn’t read it? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you read any of the material? A. No, sir.
Q. Who did in your house read it if you didn’t? A. If
my wife didn’t read it, it didn’t get read.
Q. You said it didn’t get read? A. No. I said if my
wife didn’t read it, it did not get read.
Q. So you as a witness against the Franklin County
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
1114a
Board of Education do not know what information the
Board distributed to the parents or persons standing as
parents of the children in the Franklin County schools, do
you? A. I don’t answer that question.
Q. What is that? A. I am not answering that question.
Q. You are refusing to answer it?
—30—
Mr. Schwelb: Wait a minute. Did you understand
the question?
(Question Bead)
A. No.
Mr. Chambers: Your answer is : no, you don’t
know ?
A. No.
B y M r. Y a rb o ro u g h :
Q. Did you read them last April or May of last year?
A. (No answer)
Q. Read the literature, the information disseminated
by the Board of Education? A. No.
Q. Did you read it in late July or early August of 1966?
A. No.
Q. You knew that all of the colored children in the
County school system were required to make a new free
choice; a new free choice was ordered made in their behalf
in late July or early August of 19661 A. No.
Q. You didn’t know that? A. No.
Q. Were these children living with you then? A. Yes.
—31—
Q. And so do you know whether or not a choice was
made in behalf of those children living with you? A. Yes.
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
1115a
Q. In July or August of 1966! A. No, I don’t know
that, but I do know a choice was made concerning what
school.
Q. When was that choice made! A. I said I didn’t
know that, but I know a choice was made.
Q. Do you know that two choices were made for and
on behalf of those children last year! A. No.
Q. Did you know that the Judge of the United States
District Court, Eastern District of North Carolina, or
dered a new freedom of choice for or in behalf of all the
colored school children in Franklin County schools last
July! A. No.
Q. Now, Mr. Morgan, you mentioned Mr. Luther Cop-
pedge as having had, what you described as, some in
timidation. A. Yes.
Q. And you mentioned Mrs. Arrington! A. Yes.
—32—
Q. Do you know what schools Mrs. Arrington put her
children in for the current school year! A. No, I don’t
know.
Q. Do you know what school she chose for the coming-
school year! A. No.
Q. Do you know—you say you heard about her home
being shot into. Do you know when that was! A. Last
year.
Q. Last year! A. Yes.
Q. What do you mean ‘last year’ ? A. I mean last year.
Q. The year 1966? A. The year 1966.
Q. And do you know what school Mr. Luther Coppedge
has his child or children in? A. No.
Q. Do you know any other colored people whose chil
dren attend a predominantly white school? A. No.
Q. Nobody else? A. I don’t know of any.
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
1116a
Q. Do you know how many colored children are attend
ing predominantly white schools in the County system?
—33—
A. No.
Q. Now, you said there was a fixed atmosphere? A.
Yes.
Q. A green light? A. Yes.
Q. In your community? A. No, I didn’t. I said there
was a fixed light. I didn’t say my community.
Q. A fixed light where? A. In the whole state.
Q. Well, do you think the Franklin County School Board
of Education has got anything to do with the schools
anywhere else in the State except Franklin County? A.
No.
Q. How about in Youngsville ? A. No different.
Q. Well, I want you to say—to tell me who is somebody
over there that fixes that atmosphere about the green light
to go back to the same school? A. I wish I could. I sure
would.
Q. Now, you’ve been living there eight years, or six
years? A. Yes.
Q. In Youngsville. Can you name a name? A. No.
—34—
Q. Cannot give me a name? A. No.
Q. And you have never been harassed? A. No, and
I don’t have any children in the white schools either.
Q. But you have never been harassed in Youngsville?
A. No.
Mr. Schwelb: He’s already answered that.
Mr. Yarborough: I am not talking about schools
now.
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
A. I am talking about schools.
1117a
D ep o s itio n o f A r th u r L . M org a n
B y M r. Y a rb o ro u g h :
Q. Please answer my question. A. I said no.
Q. And you said your wife, so far as you know, has not
been harrased for any reason? A. No.
Q. Do you own your home in Youngsville or not! A.
Yes.
Q. Or do you rent? A. I own it.
Q. What street is it on? A. Nassau.
Q. And the only people who live in the Franklin County
administrative unit that have been harassed that you know
of concerning the schools, in your opinion, are Mr. Cop-
—35—
pedge and Mrs. Arrington? A. No.
Q. Who else? A. Reverend S. D. Dunston.
Q. Has he got any children in school? A. I don’t know
what she are. Those adopted children.
Q. Do you know whether they were adopted, or not, by
him? A. No. She stayed with him, lived with him like
those children who lived with us.
Q. He was one of the persons who’s been harassed. How
long ago was that, has that been? A. Last year.
Q. What year? A. 1966.
Q. Do you know where those children are now? A.
No, I don’t know.
Q. And who else? A. Personally, that’s all.
Q. Now, you have given us the names of Mr. Coppedge
and Mrs. Arrington and Mr. Dunston. A. Yes.
Q. And you state you do not know now where any of
their children are— A. No.
—36—
Q. In school? A. No.
Q. Have you seen any of those three people recently?
A. No.
1118a
Q. When did you say that you heard Mr. Dunston’s
home—or that he was harassed? A. Last year.
Q. Last calendar year? A. Yes.
Q. Did you know of any incidents that have taken place
during this current school year? A. No.
Q. In Franklin County? A. No, not—not in this County,
no.
Q. And when you were talking about the fixed atmos
phere and the green light, you were talking about through
out the State? A. Yes.
Q. Of North Carolina? A. Yes.
Q. As a whole? A. Yes.
Q. I)o you know anything about the school system or
the method of assignment for pupils to schools in other
- 37-
counties of North Carolina? A. No.
Q. And the children that are living in your home ride
the bus to the school to which they go? A. Un-hunh.
Q. That is correct, isn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. And you say it would be cheaper. Do you know who
pays the expenses of operating those school busses? You
say it would be cheaper to the County? A. No, I didn’t.
Q. What did you say? A. I said I believe it would be
cheaper to operate one school system.
Q. Do you know who pays the school bus expenses?
A. No.
Q. So you now say you did not say it would be cheaper
to the County? A. I believe it would be cheaper.
Q. To whom? A. To whoever paid it.
Q. I am asking you if you said it would be cheaper to
the County ? A. I did not. I said it would be cheaper
to whoever paid it.
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
1119a
D ep o s itio n o f A r th u r L . M orga n
Q. That is what you said—you said a few minutes ago?
Mr. Schwelb: I would like to state, for the record,
that I would prefer that nobody said I badger wit
nesses to Judge Harvey in the future.
B y M r. Y a r b o r o u g h :
Q. The Royal Cotton Mills is located in or near Wake
Forest? A. In Wake Forest.
Q. How many people to your knowledge who live in or—
in Youngsville work in the cotton mill there? A. I don’t
know.
Q. Any? A. Yes.
Q. How many? A. I don’t know.
Q. Any more colored people? A. Yes.
Q. It’s an integrated working force at the mill then,
isn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. Have you ever gone into the Jay plant in Nashville?
A. I started there one day I believe.
Q. That is integrated, isn’t it—the working force? You
worked there one day? A. One day, yes.
Q. And there were other colored people working there
—89—
that day? A. Yes.
Q. That is located in Nashville? A. Right.
Q. Your wife’s name is Mrs. Willett W. Morgan? A.
Right.
Q. What grade does she teach? A. First.
Q. How long did she teach at Grethsemane? A. She’s
been teaching eighteen years and she’s spent all the rest
of her years at Grethsemane, up until 1963.
1120a
Q. What was her name before you— A. Jones.
Q. Mrs. Willie Jones? A. Mrs. Willie Jones.
Q. Was she married before you married here? A. Yes.
Q And her transfer from Gethsemane to Youngsville
Elementary was agreeable to her, wasn’t it? A. Yes. She
asked for it.
Q. She asked for the transfer? A. Yes.
Q. And she got it? A. Yes.
— 40—
Q. Is that the only transfer she’s ever asked for in
this County? A. The only one I am acquainted with.
Q. How long has Delores Green been living with you?
How many years? A. Let me—you say approximately?
Q. I say about. A. About six years.
Q. And for the last two or three years she’s been riding
the bus to Riverside? A. Yes.
Q. And Deshon is riding the bus this year for the first
time to Riverside? A. Yes.
Q. Does Corliss ride the bus or your wife take her to
school? A. My wife takes her.
Q. Do you know Mr. Warren Smith, the Superintendent
of County Schools? A. I know they say that is him there.
I don’t know him and never seen him before.
Q. You have never been in this building before until
today? A. Not here, no.
— 41—
Q. In this building until today? A. That’s right.
Q. You know Mr. Willie Mitchell? A. Yes.
Q. He’s dead now. A. Yes.
Q. And you know he lived in or near Youngsville? A.
In Youngsville.
Q. And he was superintendent of schools while you were
living in Youngsville? A. Yes.
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
1121a
Q. Now, these complaints that you have now about not
enough grounds at Youngsville Elementary and that the
facilities are inadequate, and so forth, up until day is the
first time you have ever said that to anybody connected
with the schools, isn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. And when Mr. Schwelb came to see you a week or
two ago, did he tell you why he came to see you? A. No,
he didn’t. Mr. Schwelb came to me and we talked over
this matter.
Q. Who was with him? A. No one.
Q. Do you know, or did he tell you how he knew where
— 42—
you lived? A. He asked me was this me and did I live
here and I told him yes.
Q. Do you know he knew your name then, before he
came to your house? A. He must have.
Q. I said he did. He called your name, didn’t he? A.
Yes.
Q. Did he tell you where he got your name from or
from whom he got your name? A. I did not ask him.
Q. I say did he tell you? A. I did not ask him.
Q. You don’t have any objection to answering my ques
tions, do you?
Mr. Chambers: He did answer it.
A. I said I did not ask him.
B y M r. Y a r b o r o u g h :
Q. Did he tell you—did Mr. Schwelb tell you that, the
time that he came to your house, that he wanted you to be
a witness down here or anywhere else in this case? A.
Yes.
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
1122a
Q. Did you agree at that time to be a witness? A. Yes.
Q. During your conversation with Mr. Schwelb who
else was present? A. Nobody.
— 43—
Q. Your wife was not present? A. No.
Q. Do you know whether or not he talked with your
wife on that trip? A. No.
Q, To your house? A. No.
Q. I say did he talk to her? A. She wasn’t there.
Q. Do you know whether or not he’s talked to your
wife at any time regarding this case? A. No.
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all.
R ed ir e c t E xa m in a tion by M r. S ch w e lb :
Q. Now, Mr. Yarborough was asking you all about the
integrated force, work force, where you work? A. Yes.
Q. Generally speaking, are the supervisory jobs held
by white people or Negroes? A. White.
Q. And how about the janitor’s job? A. Negro.
Q. Is this very typical of most places in the area? A.
Yes.
— 44—
Q. Do very many white people work for Negroes in your
community? A. No.
Q. Do very many white people have Negroes working for
them? A. Yes.
Q. Are very many white people economically dependent
on Negroes? A. No.
Q. Are very many Negroes economically dependent on
white people? A. Yes.
Q. When I sawr you at your home did I try to force you
to say anything? A. I don’t know.
Deposition of Arthur L, Morgan
1123a
Q. Did I try to ask you any loaded questions? A. No.
Q. Did I ask you to say anything else but the truth?
A. No.
Q. Did I try to induce you to exaggerate? A. No.
Q. Did I do anything at your house that you would
regard in any way improper? A. No.
Q. Now, you don’t know—you know your family got
—4 5 -
freedom of choice forms on one or more occasions? A.
Yes, I do know.
Q. Do you know the exact dates when you got them!
A. No, I don’t.
Q. Now, you mentioned some incidents and you testified
that you thought they happened last year? A. Yes.
Q. Can you name the exact dates when they happened?
A. No. I don’t have a record and keep clippings.
Q. Now, you have heard that certain houses were shot
into? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know who shot into them? A. No.
Q. Were they shot into nevertheless? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether the Sheriff of Franklin County
has arrested anybody for those shootings? A. No.
Q. So far as you know has anybody been arrested? A.
No.
(Discussion off Record)
Mr. Schwelb: Let me introduce as Exhibit 1 to this
deposition a clipping from the Raleigh News and
Observer, of January 31,1967; as Exhibit 2 a clipping
—46—
from the Raleigh News and Observer, February 18,
1967; as Exhibit 3, a clipping dated February 9,
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
1124a
1967; as Exhibit, 4, a clipping dated February 8,
1967. All of these are from the Raleigh News and
Observer. And Exhibit 5, a clipping dated Feb
ruary 18, 1967.
I understand from Mr. Yarborough that he objects
to the relevancy of these documents but will stipulate
as to the authenticity.
Mr. Yarborough: Yes, we object to the introduc
tion of them; we will stipulate that they are repro
ductions of what was published in the News and
Observer on the date indicated; otherwise, we ob
ject to everything connected with them. We do ad
mit that they are reproductions on the dates indi
cated.
(Exhibits 1 through 5 marked for identification)
Mr. Schwelb: I have nothing further.
R ed ir ec t E xa m in a tion b y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Reverend Morgan, you indicated you stay in Youngs-
villef A. Yes.
Q. And let me get your first name again. A. Arthur.
—47—
Q. Arthur. Your statement in reference to the fixed
attitude of Negroes going back to where they came from,
are you directly concerned—was that directly concerned
with the Franklin County school system1? A. No.
Q. Did it pertain, however, to the Franklin County school
system? A. Yes.
Q. Did, in fact, the Negro students in Youngsville go to
predominantly Negro schools? A. Yes.
Q. And would you name those schools again that the
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
1125a
Negro students have gone to? A. Youngsville Elementary,
Riverside High. ,
Q. Now, where is Hooks Grove Baptist Church? A.
That is in Wayne County.
Q. Wayne? A. Wayne County. Goldsboro. Pikesville,
North Carolina.
Mr. Chambers: I have no further questions.
R ecro ss -E x a m in a tio n b y M r. Y a r b o r o u g h :
Q. Are you a janitor at Royal Cotton Mills? A. No. No.
Q. What work do you do ? A. I am a carder.
—48—
Q. A carder? A. Yes.
Q. And that is on the production line, isn’t it? A. No,
it isn’t.
Q. What is that? A. That is on the hour basis. Not
lap winder, but carder. That is not production.
Q. I see. It is a regular cotton mill job? A. Yes, but it
is not production.
Q. But you do have to have carders to operate a cotton
mill, don’t you? A. Yes.
Q. And how many carders do they have in the Royal
Mill? A. I don’t know what you mean personally.
Q. How many carders do they have, people doing the
work that you do? A. They have one for each shift.
Q. One for each shift. One carder for each shift, just
one man? A. Yes.
Q. What shift do you do—the night shift? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know of any colored people in Youngsville who
are dissatisfied with the white people for whom they work?
—49—
Mr. Schwelb: I object to that question.
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
1126a
B y M r. Y a r b o r o u g h :
Q. Go ahead and answer. A. No, sir.
Q. Yon do not know of any! A. I take that objection.
Mr. Schwelb: Answer the question.
A. Do what! No, I don’t know.
B y M r. Y a rb o ro u g h :
Q. What book are you reading from or have open in
front of you! A. I am reading Corinthians.
Q. The Holy Bible! A. Yes.
Mr. Yarborough: We’d like the record to show
that while I was conducting some part of the cross-
examination the witness was reading from the Holy
Bible.
A. The Holy Bible.
Mr. Schwelb: Is that to impeach the witness?
Mr. Yarborough: No; it is a fact.
Mr. Schwelb: We will be happy to concede the
fact that it is true, it is apparent that it is true.
Mr. Schwelb: (To Witness) Are you ashamed of
reading the Bible?
A. No.
Mr. Yarborough: Let me finish my examination,
—50—
please. . . . That’s all. You may stand down.
Deposition of Arthur L. Morgan
1127a
R e-R ed ire c t E xa m in a tion by M r. S ch w elb :
Q. You are aware that—you had your Bible with you
when you gave all of your testimony today? A. Yes.
Q. You understand you are under oath? A. Yes.
Q. You are a minister of the gospel? A. Yes.
Q. Did you tell the truth at all times? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schwelb: No further questions.
Mr. Yarborough: He is not under oath, but af
firmation.
B y M r. S ch w e lb :
Q. Did you tell the truth by means of affirmation? A.
Yes, I do.
Mr. Schwelb: I have no further questions.
Mr. Yarborough: We have no further questions.
Witness Excused.
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey
—51—
Ossie L ynn Spivey, being first duly sworn, was examined
and testified as fo llow s:
D ire c t E xa m in a tion by M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Would you please state your full name for the record?
A. Ossie Lynn Spivey.
Q. How do you spell it? A. O-S-S-I-E L-Y-N-N
S-P-I-Y-E-Y.
Q. Where do you live? A. Ossie Lynn.
Q. Where do you live? A. Oh, in the Justice Commu
nity.
Q. Is that in Franklin County? A. Yes, it is.
1128a
Q. How old are you, please? A. Fourteen.
Q. And would you state your race please, for the record?
A. Negro.
Q. And who do you live with Ossie Lynn? A. My grand
parents.
Q. What are their names? A. Mr. and Mrs. Layuars
Spivey.
Q. What school do you attend, Ossie Lynn, please? A.
Perry’s High.
—52—
Q. And what grade are you in ? A. Ninth.
Q. Have you been attending Perry’s School all your life?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. How are your grades there? A. A ’s and B’s.
Q. Mostly A ’s and B’s? A. Yes. Ever now and then
maybe I get a C. Not often.
Q. Would you tell us about the state of health of your
grandmother, please? A. Well, she is a diabetic and she
has been ill for—ever since we have moved to the house
where we are presently staying. And she stays in bed most
of the time.
Q. How long have you live in the house you are staying
in? A. About four or five months.
Q. And was she sick before you came, or a little bit?
A. Yes, she was. She had recently stopped going to the
doctor.
Q. Did you live in the general area of the Justice Com
munity before that? A. Yes. We lived about a mile from
where we stay now.
Q. Now, how do you get to Perry’s School? A. A bus
comes by my home and takes us to school.
—53—
Q. Ossie Lynn, in the area where you live are there both
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey
1129a
Negroes and white pupils living in the general area? A.
Yes, there are.
Q. Where do the white children go to school? A. They
go to Edward Best High.
Q. And where do most of the Negro children go to school?
A. Perry’s.
Q. Do you know any that go to Edward Best! A. Only
two.
Q. Is that Alice Clanton and Harold Coppedge? A. Yes,
it is.
Q. Now, do you know in the last couple of years whether
this school board started distributing free choice forms
and allowing parents and pupils to choose their own
schools? Do you remember that that happened? A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever give any consideration to changing
schools? A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what school did you consider going to? A. Ed
ward Best.
—54—
Q. Which is the nearest school to you? A. Edward Best.
Q. How far is it from your home? A. Oh, it’s about
five or six miles maybe.
Q. Edward Best is? A. Yes.
Q. And how far is Perry’s? A. About fifteen^—maybe
thirteen miles.
Q. Is that an approximation? A. Yes.
Q. Edward Best is substantially nearer? A. Yes, it is.
Q. Now, let me ask you whether you have heard of any
incidents involving Negroes who sent their children to pre
dominantly white schools? . A. Yes, I have.
Q. And who are some of those Negroes? A. Well,
Harold Coppedge is the only one I have heard of.
Q. I am talking about the families; not just the pupils.
A. Well, the Coppedge family.
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey
1130a
Q. The Coppedge family. What have you heard of hav
ing happened to the Coppedge family. A. Well, I heard
—55—
that Mrs. Coppedge got threatening phone calls asking her,
or at least telling her to take her son out of Edward Best;
that the home have been bombed; that roofing nails have
been put in their path; and that Mr. Coppedge has had
threatening phone calls, too.
Q. Have you heard of a cross being burned! A. Yes,
I have.
Q. When you say the home was bombed, was the home
destroyed! A. No, it wasn’t destroyed, but it did jar the
house.
Q. Do you know anything about that from personal
knowledge! A. No, I don’t.
Q. Let me ask you whether you ever heard any explosion
which you later learned about! A. Yes, I did.
Q. Tell us about that. A. Well, I heard the explosion.
Q. About how long ago! A. It’s been about a month
ago.
Q. Is that exact! A. No, it is not.
Q. Go ahead. A. But Mr. Coppedge was away in Wash
ington, if I make no mistake, and when I heard the blast
—56—
I just dismissed it as somebody blasting late at night, or
moving something, and it sounded like someone had shot
a bomb and a cannon.
Q. It was a pretty loud explosion! A. Yes, it was.
Q. How far do you live from the Coppedge house! A.
Oh, about a half a mile, or maybe three-fourths.
Q. Did you hear it distinctly! A. Yes.
Q. Besides the incidents at the Coppedge’s have you
heard there have been other incidents! A. Yes, I have
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey
1131a
heard there have been other incidents, but I don’t know any
of the people personally.
Q. Have you heard about whether the Ku Klux Klan
is active in Franklin County? A. Yes.
Q. Do yon think that they are for integration or against
integration? A. They are against it I think.
Q. And you don’t know every white person in the County,
do you? A. No, I don’t.
Q. Do you have a feeling about a good portion of the
white population in the County, whether they are for in-
—57—
tegration or against integration? A. Yes.
Q. What is your feeling? A. Well, I believe it runs
about three-fourths against and maybe the other fourth
are for it.
Q. You don’t know exactly, do you? A. No.
Q. In your own mind you believe there is comparable
opposition.
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form of the
question.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Well, you refer to three-fourths as being against,
do you believe that some of—well, let me ask you this
question, Ossie Lynn, if you had—were you concerned at
all—strike that, please. Your grandmother—is it good,
as far as you know, is it good or bad for her to have excite
ment and trouble, being in the condition she is in? A.
Well, it is not good for her to have excitement, no.
Q. You ultimately decided to go back to Perry’s didn’t
you? A. Yes, I did.
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey
1132a
Q. Did you have any way of knowing whether or not
incidents like happened to the Coppedges might happen
—58—
to you if you went to Edward Best? A. No, I didn’t.
Q. Did you feel secure that they wouldn’t happen? A.
No.
Q. And with respect to keeping on at Perry’s, have you
had any trouble going there? A. No, I haven’t.
Q. Has anybody bothered you because you go to Perry’s?
A. No.
Q. Now, so far as you know there are only two Negro
pupils at Edward Best, you testified? A. Yes.
Q. Now, supposing there were a larger number of Negro
pupils, including some of your friends that you know,
would you feel more or less secure about going to Edward
Best, that is, as far as the way you are treated? A. No,
I don’t think I would feel any more secure.
Q. Are most of your friends white or Negro in your
community? A. What did you say?
Q. Are most of the people you associate with Negro or
white? A. Mostly Negro.
Q. In your age group? A. Mostly Negro.
Q. Now, let me ask you whether you have seen me before
—5 9 -
today? A. Yes, I have.
Q. Did I come to your house? A. Yes, you did.
Q. Did we talk about this case? A. Yes, you did.
Q. Did I tell you whether or not you might be called as
a witness? A. Yes, you did.
Q. Did I tell you to tell me lies? A. No, you did not.
Q. Did I try to get you to say something that you
don’t want to say?
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey
1133a
D ep o s itio n o f O ssie L y n n S p iv ey
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. No.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Did I ask yon to tell the truth? A. Yes, you did.
Q. Did I talk to you again yesterday on the telephone?
A. Yes, you did.
Q. And did I or not mention that Mr. Yarborough and
Mr. Davis might come to see you? A. Yes, you did.
Q. Did I ask you to lie to them or to tell them the truth ?
—60—
A. You asked me to tell them the truth.
Q. Under the circumstances do you believe that Negroes
have a perfectly free choice to go to a predominantly white
school, secure that nothing will happen to them? A. No, I
don’t think they do.
Q. Would you have any objection to all of the children
being assigned to the nearest school? A. No.
Q. If you were assigned to the nearest school, would you.
have to travel further or less far than you have to travel to
go to school now? A. Less.
Mr. Schwelb: I have no further questions.
Mr. Chambers: I have no questions.
C ross-E xa m in a tion b y M r. D a v is :
Q. Ossie Lynn, where do you live in the Justice Commu
nity? A. About two miles from the church.
Q. Is that going by the church to Nash County, that
way? A. Yes.
Q. I believe you say you live with your grandmother and
your grandfather? A. Yes, I do.
1134a
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey
Q. Any other school children live with them? A. Yes,
there are two,
— 61—
Q. Are they yonr brothers and sisters? A. Yes, they
are.
Q. And how old are they? A. My sister—she is ten.
Q. What is her name? A. Patricia Ann Moore.
Q. All right. She is ten. A. My brother is Freeman
Reavis Moore.
Q. How old is he? A. He is eight.
Q. And, of course, they are in school, too? A. Yes, they
are.
Q. They go to Perry’s? A. Yes, they do.
Q. Does your grandfather own his land? A. No, he does
not.
Q. Whose land does he live in? A. Mr. Gardner, D. B.
Gardner. Rents it.
Q. Mr. D. B. Gardner—he is the one that died? A. D. B.
is the son.
Q. Do you all farm with him or just rent the house ? A.
Just rent the house.
Q. Now, who did you live with before you moved to
Mr. Gardner’s house ? A. Mr. Earnest Wheelous.
— 62—
Q. Mr. Ernest Wheelous ? A. Yes.
Q. How long did you live with him? A. Sixteen years.
Q. Sixteen years? A. Yes.
Q. How long have you been living with your grandmother
and grandfather? A. Ever since I was born.
Q. Ever since you were born? A. Yes.
Q. Are you the oldest child living with them? A. Yes,
I am.
Q. And you are in the ninth grade now? A. Yes.
1135a
Q. Mr. Earnest Wheelous and Mr. D. B. Gardner both
are white men, is that right? A. Yes.
Q. Now, yon told Mr. Schwelb that you know both Alice
Clanton and Harold Coppedge. A. Yes, I do.
Q. And you live about a half a mile or three-quarters
of a mile from Harold Coppedge’s house, is that right?
—63—
A. Yes.
Q. And, of course, about the same distance from the
Clanton house ? A. Yes.
Q. I believe they are right across the road from each
other, aren’t they? A. Yes, they are.
Q. Now, Mr. Schwelb asked you about some incidents that
you may have heard about? A. Yes.
Q. In the past. And I believe you told him, did you not,
that the only ones that you were aware of personally were
some that might have happened at the Coppedge house?
A. Yes.
Q. You don’t know of anything that’s ever happened con
cerning Alice Clanton, do you? A. No, I don’t.
Q. And, of course, she is a student at Edward Best
School, too, isn’t she? A. Yes.
Q. And been there this year? A. Yes.
Q. And in the ninth grade? A. Yes, she is.
—64—
Q. Were you and Alice Clanton in the same room together
at Perry’s School? A. Yes, we were.
Q. Were you in the same room together in the eighth
grade? A. Yes. We have been in the same room ever
since we were in the sixth grade.
Q. Sixth grade? A. Yes.
Q. And you knew Alice Clanton chose to go to Edward
Best this current school year? A. No. I didn’t actually—
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey
1136a
not until one Sunday this summer. I went up to her house
and she told me she had chosen to go to Edward Best.
Q. And you have seen her from time to time during the
school year? A. Yes, I have.
Q. And you don’t know of anything that has happened
to her while going to school at Edward Best A. No,
nothing physically. But she said that-—that none of the
students have actually done anything to her, but that she
has been near some who said words that weren’t of the best.
Q. Have you been near students at Perry’s School who
said words that weren’t of the best? A. Yes. I think I
—65—
hear them at every school.
Q. That is just the children, isn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. You say you heard a loud noise that sounded to you
like a bomb or cannon about a month ago? A. Yes.
Q. Coming from the direction of the Coppedge home?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And, of course, anything you might know about that
is what somebody from Coppedge home has told you
about it? A. Yes, it is.
Q. Do you live on the west side or the east side of the
Coppedge’s? A. On the east I believe.
Q. On the east side? A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Wilbur Gardner lives next door to the Coppedge
house, doesn’t he? A. Yes.
Q. And his house is fairly close? A. Yes, it is.
Q. How far would you say it is? A. From my home or
from the Coppedge’s?
Q. No, from the Coppedge’s to Wilbur Gardner? A.
— 66—
Not far. About a few hundred yards. Maybe five or six
hundred yards. Not too far I don’t think.
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey
1137a
Q. Five or six hundred yards? A. I know you can see
his house from the Coppedge’s.
Q. And you can see it right good, can’t you! A. Yes.
Q, And how far do you live below Wilbur Gardner’s
house? A. Well, about two-fourths of a mile after you
pass his home you come to a newly paved highway. I live
on that.
Q. Now, Ossie Lynn, who told you that the bomb or ex
plosion that you testified to jarred the Coppedge house?
A. Mrs. Coppedge. She came over to our house about
a week afterwards and she said that some of her glass
things had been broken.
Q. That is what she told you? A. Yes. I make no mis
take, she said some of them had either been broken or they
jarred—they cracked.
Q. You didn’t hear anything about—before Mrs. Cop
pedge told you did you know where the noise occurred?
A. Yes. Some people had been up to our house and they
had said it was at the Coppedge home, but they didn’t go
into details about it because they didn’t know anything
— 67—
more about it than it was just at the Coppedge house.
Q. Have you ever heard a bomb go off? A. No.
Q. Have you ever heard a cannon fired? A. No. No
place except on television.
Q. And that was just your description of what the noise
sounded like? A. Yes, it was.
Q. So you don’t know actually what it was, do you? A.
No, I don’t.
Q. Do you know Mr. Ira Bowden? A. I have heard of
him.
Q. He is the man that lives just on this side, on the
west side, of the Coppedge’s? A. No, I don’t know of him.
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey
1138a
Q. Lives back in the grove, a little bit off the highway!
A. Oh, off the highway!
Q. On the right-hand side? A. Yes,
Q. Just this side of the Coppedge house, going to Nash
County? A. Yes.
Q. And that is just a few hundred yards from the Cop-
— 68—
pedge house, isn’t it? A. Yes, it is.
Q. Ossie Lynn, you told Mr. Schwelb that you do not
believe that Negroes have a perfectly free choice in Frank
lin County. What did you mean by that? A. Well, to me,
they don’t have a free choice because, as you already know,
they sent out choice forms, and if it was free, they wouldn’t
actually send out choice forms because the child could go
to the school he wanted to and you wouldn’t have to send
out choice forms. You wouldn’t have to have someone like
the government to send men to see that everything was
white and Negro. They’d go to the same place, which I know
they wouldn’t—wouldn’t—which I think the whites would
probably bother you. But then you probably wouldn’t be
bothered with the free choice forms or something like that,
and I don’t think it is free to—that you have to sign to go
to a certain school, that you have to write your name on a
choice form and check your school.
Q. Don’t you think the School Board has to know how
many students are going to a certain school? A. Yes, they
do.
Q. In order to provide teachers and courses! A. Yes,
they do.
—69—
Q. And don’t you know that that is the reason the School
Board sends the choice forms out, is to know which stu
dents and how many are going to the different schools ? A.
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey
1139a
Well, now, if it was free, all they’d have to do is ask, or
write on a paper that they wanted to know which school the
child is going to and that they are planning to go to that
school, and tell them what school they are going to, and
this is in effect what you write in and tell you, what I un
derstand. If you go to a white school, you still have to be
bothered with people.
Q. And who has bothered Alice Clanton? A. No one has
bothered Alice Clanton.
Q. She is going to a white school, isn’t she? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know the Davis children up here? A. No, I
don’t.
Q. Is Harold Coppedge the only student that you know of
that has been bothered in the whole Franklin County sys
tem? A. He is the only one—I know of him, yes.
Q. And do you know how many Negro students there are
in the Franklin County system in predominantly white
—70—
schools ? A. No, I don’t.
Q. You said you feel that about three-fourths of the white
population of Franklin County are opposed to integration?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Who are some of them that you feel like are opposed?
A. Well, I don’t know any that I feel like are opposed.
Q. All that you know—did I understand you correctly
that all the white people that you know in Franklin County,
so far as you are concerned, are in favor of integration?
A. No. They may not be in favor of it all the way.
Q. Who are some that you don’t feel like are? A. Well,
I don’t think Mr. Gardner is fully.
Q. Which Mr. Gardner? A. The man that we stay with.
Q. Mr. D. B. Gardner? A. Yes
Q Why do you feel that way? What has he ever told—
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey
1140a
has he ever told you that he was against it? A. No, he’s
never told us he was against it.
Q. Have you ever heard him say anything that would
indicate he was against it? A. No, I haven’t.
Q. But you feel like he is opposed to integration? A.
- 7 1 -
Yes, I do.
Q. All right. Who else? A. I don’t know of anyone else.
Q. How many white people do you know in Franklin
County, approximately? A. Quite a few.
Q. Well, do you know a hundred? A. No.
Q. You don’t know that many? A. Maybe fifty.
Q. Maybe fifty? A. Yes.
Q. And you have some white friends you told Mr.
Schwelb? A. One or two maybe.
Q. And they are in favor, as far as you know, of desegre
gation of schools, aren’t they? A. They have never said.
Q. But, according to your information and belief, they
are? A. Yes. Maybe one of them.
Q. And the only one that you know who is opposed to
it in any way is Mr. D. B. Gardner? A. Yes. In some ways
he is.
Q. In some ways. And, of course, your grandfather
moved on his place about five or six months ago ? A. Yes,
he did.
—72—
Q. And is still living there? A. Yes.
Q. And gets along fine with him? A. Yes.
Q. And you get along fine with him? A. I have never
spoken to the man.
Q. Never spoken to him? A. No, I haven’t.
Q. Now, these incidents that you told Mr. Schwelb about
at Reverend Coppedge’s house, have you ever been present
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey
1141a
when anything unusual happened at his house? A. No, I
haven’t.
Q. And what you have told Mr. Sehwelb is what you have
heard other people say? A. Yes, I have.
Q. Now, Ossie Lynn, do you know how Mr. Sehwelb
knew to come to your home or call you or talk to you about
this case? A. No, I don’t.
Q. Have you ever talked to Mr. Coppedge about the
case? A. No.
Q. Do you know whether or not Mr. Coppedge even sent
Mr. Sehwelb to your house? A. No, I don’t.
—73—
Q. You just don’t know how he got your name? A. No.
All I heard, that he was talking to Mrs. Coppedge.
Q. And she told him? A. And she might have told him,
given him my name.
Q. Did Mrs. Coppedge talk to you after she had talked
to Mr. Sehwelb? A. No, she didn’t.
Q. Who told you or how did you hear that he had been
talking to Mrs. Coppedge and she might have given him
your name? A. Alice Clanton came to my home one Sun
day afternoon.
Q. Alice Clanton told you? A. Yes.
Q. When was the first time you talked to Mr. Sehwelb?
A. It was one Wednesday afternoon. I was home from
school.
Q. This past Wednesday afternoon? A. No. It was the
week before that.
Q. A week ago? A. Yes. I was at home from school be
cause my grandmother was to go to the doctor, and that is
the reason.
Q. Was anybody else present when he was at your house?
A. Yes.
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey
1142a
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey
—74—
Q. Who was! A. My aunt.
Q. And what is her name! A. Joanne Foster, Mrs. Jo
anne Foster.
Q. Did she come to your home with Mr. Schwelb! A.
No, she did not.
Q. Was she at your home when Mr. Schwelb arrived!
A. Yes, she was.
Q. Was she expecting Mr. Schwelb! A. No, she wasn’t.
Q. Where does she live! A. Stallings Milling Company,
in the house directly behind it.
Q. In Franklin County! A. Yes.
Q. Was anybody else with Mr. Schwelb when he came to
your house! A. No, he was alone.
Q. And what did he tell you when he came into your
house! A. He identified himself and told me the reason
that he was there.
Q. And how did he identify himself! A. I asked him
to come in to the porch and he said who he was before he
came in and he said he was Mr. Schwelb from the Civil
- 7 5 -
Rights Division, Washington, D. C.
Q. And did he tell you he was down here to protect your
civil rights! A. Yes, he did.
Q. And then what did he tell you! A. He told me that
he would like to ask a few questions and take notes.
Q. And what questions did he ask you! A. The same
questions that have been asked here today, the reasons
maybe why I wasn’t going to a white school, which was
closer.
Q. Do you know of any other students, colored students,
in your neighborhood, other than Alice Clanton and Harold
Coppedge, that he may have talked to! A. No, I do not.
1143a
Q. How many other colored students are there in your
neighborhood? A. About seven or eight families.
Q. And you don’t know why he might have singled you
out from the others to come to your house? A. No.
Q. And you say you are making average grades? A.
Yes.
Q. In school. A ’s and B’s? A. Yes, sir.
—76—
Q. Who signed your choice form for next year? A. My
aunt, Mrs. Bertha Woodson.
Q. Woodson, W-O-O-D-S-O-N? A. Yes.
Q. Does she live in your house? A. No. She was home
on account of my grandmother’s illness.
Q. And why did she sign your choice form? A. Well,
my grandmother asked her to sign for us.
Q. Where does Bertha Woodson live? A. Alexandria,
Virginia.
Q. And she came down here and signed your choice form?
A. No, she didn’t come down here to sign my choice form.
Q. I mean while she was down here, she signed it? A.
Yes.
Q. And she signed your grandfather’s name to it? A.
Yes, she did.
Q. And your choice form was signed on March 13th, of
this year? A. Yes.
Q. Over two months ago? A. Yes.
—77—
Q. And that was prior to the time you say the explosion
happened? A. Yes.
Q. And you have received your assignment in accordance
with your choice? A. Yes, I have.
Q. To Perry’s for next year? A. Yes.
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey
1144a
Q. And that was just like you asked for? A. Yes, it is
what I signed on my form.
Q. And that is what you asked for? A. Yes.
Q. That is the choice you indicated you wanted? A. Yes,
it was.
Q. Have you ever had any occasion to talk to Mr. D. B.
Gardner? A. Yes, I have had occasions, hut I have never
actually talked to him. I have seen him off at a distance. I
could have talked to him if I wanted to.
Q. But you are not afraid of him, are you? A. No, I am
not afraid of him.
Mr. Davis: No further questions.
R ed irec t E xa m in a tion by M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Mr. Davis asked you as to whether or not you knew
something because Mrs. Coppedge told you. As far as you
- 7 8 -
know is Mrs. Coppedge a trustworthy lady? A. Yes.
Q. Does she tell the truth? A. Yes.
Q. Do you believe what she told you? A. Yes.
Q. Now, about these problems that Alice Clanton—you
mentioned that—the things she told you, she said to you
happened at Edward Best—let me ask you whether Negroes
appreciate being called ‘Nigger’ by white people?
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form.
Mr. Schwelb: (To witness) You can answer it.
A. No.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Now, what kind of things that weren’t of the best,
that Alice Clanton told you about, what she told you? A.
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey
1145a
Well, they sing K K K songs to her and call her maybe
different names if she was around, just so she could hear
it.
Q. Did she ever tell you that she was ever called what I
just said? A. No, she didn’t say she was called that.
Q. Let me ask you this: do you know what school Alice
is going to next year? A. She has mentioned to me that
—79—
she might be going back to Perry’s. I don’t know for sure.
Q. Let me ask you this: before the Court case and you
started hearing in the news about the federal money being
cut off if the schools didn’t desegregate, did all of the chil
dren here go to desegregated schools or segregated schools,
in the last, say, two or three years? A. No, there weren’t
any colored students going to any white schools and there
weren’t any white students going to any Negro schools.
Q. And as far as you know is the Board of Education
made up of white people or colored people? A. I think
there may be one Negro on the Board of Education. I am
not sure.
Q. You don’t know! A. Mrs. Davis.
Q. Mrs. who? A. Mrs. Davis. I don’t know if she is a
supervisor, or something.
Q. Let me ask you this question: the officers around
Franklin County, the elective officers, the sheriff and other
officers in the area, are they white or colored? A. Mostly
white.
—80—
Q. Do you know of any elected official who is colored in
this section, in this County? A. I can’t say I do.
Q. Now, until the federal government got involved in it,
were the schools segregated or integrated? A. They were
segregated.
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey
1146a
Q. And did the—were the officers, as far as you know,
did they lose their elective offices because the people were
clamboring for integration?
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form of that.
A. No, they didn’t.
Mr. Schwelb: I have no further questions.
E xa m in a tion b y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Mr. Davis asked you if you got along okay with your
landlord. I did understand you to say, did I not, that you
are attending Perry’s School, and that your sister and
brother— A. Yes.
Q. Are attending Perry’s School? A. Yes. May I clar
ify one thing before we go too far. We do not rent our
house from Mr. D. B. Gardner. We rent from the man that
owns the land.
Q. And who is the man that owns the land? A. Nathan
iel McCowan.
Q. Now, you don’t recall the exact date of the explosion
—81—
at the Coppedge’s, do you? A. No, I don’t.
Q. You don’t recall whether that was in March or April,
do you? A. No, not actually. But I think it was in March.
Q. In March? A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall whether—you don’t recall exactly
whether it was before or after you exercised this—or this
choice form was returned?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey
1147a
B y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Do you? A. No.
Mr. Chambers: I will rephrase it.
B y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Do you recall whether it was befox-e or after you ex
ercised you choice? A. No, I don’t.
Q. You say that you think that Alice Clanton is going-
back to Perry’s or that she has indicated that for next year?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know why she is going back to Perry’s? A.
"Well, from what she said, she says that she has some friends
at Edward Best, but not as many as she had at Perry’s, and
there are some that she doesn’t get along too well with.
—82—
Q. At Edward Best? A. Yes. And she thinks that, even
though she makes good grades, that she could probably get
along better at Perry’s.
Q. Now, do you know whether there are any Negro
teachers at Edward Best? A. No, there are no Negro
teachers there.
Q. Is there a white teacher at Perry’s? A. No, there
isn’t.
Q. Has there been any activities between Perry’s and
Edward Best? A. No.
Mr. Chambers: I have no further questions.
R ecross-E xa m in a tion by M r. D a v is :
Q. Ossie Lynn, do you remember telling me, when I was
asking you some questions a minute ago, that the explo
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey
1148a
sion that yon testified about happened after yon exercised
your free choice? A. That I told you it happened after
wards?
Q. Do you remember? A. No, I don’t.
Q. Didn’t you tell me that the explosion—or tell Mr.
Schwelb that the explosion you talked about happened
about a month ago ! A. Yes, it may have been that early,
—83—
or later. It may have been a month or later.
Q. And you told me that you exercised your choice on
March the 17th? A. Yes.
Mr. Schwelb: I think the record will show what
yon told me.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. March the 13th. A. Yes, but you asked me—
Q. And that was before you heard the explosion? A. I
can’t say it was before or after.
Q. You get along with all of your teachers all right, don’t
you? A. Yes, I do.
Q. And you told Mr. Schwelb that—or Mr. Chambers one
—that there are no white teachers at Perry’s, is that right?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Now, there is a white nurse there, isn’t there? A.
Yes, there is.
Q. And didn’t a white teacher or a white high school
supervisor give you some tests this year? A. Yes, she
did.
Q. Now, do you know of any teachers at Perry’s that
—84—
you’d like to see replaced with white teachers? A. No.
Q. You get along with all the teachers all right? A. Yes.
Deposition of Ossie Lynn Spivey
1149a
Q. You get along with. Mr. Wilson all right, don’t you?
A. Yes.
Q. He is the principal? A. Yes, he is.
Q. Now, there are some students at Perry’s School that
you don’t get along with, aren’t there? A. Yes, there are.
Q. And some you don’t like? A. Yes, there are.
Q. Some you don’t particularly want to associate with?
A. Yes, there are.
Q. And some you don’t associate with? A. Yes, there
are.
Mr. Davis: That’s all.
R e-B ed ir ec t E xam in ation by M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Ossie Lynn, you wouldn’t mind having some white
teachers at Perry’s, would you? A. No, I wouldn’t.
Q. And when you testified you were satisfied with your
teachers, you weren’t trying to urge this School Board not
to fulfill the contractual duties not to desegregate the fac
ulty?
Mr. Davis: Object to the form?
A. No.
Mr. Schwelb: No further questions.
Witness excused.
Deposition of Michael Dan Matthews
C ross E xa m in a tion by M r. C h a m b ers :
# • * * #
# # # * *
—14—
—16—
Q. Did you participate in extracurricular activities at
Edward Best? A. I am in the F A A and Glee Club.
1150a
Q, You are in the Glee Club? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how long have you been in the Glee Club? A. I
was in there last year and in there this year.
Q. Did you participate in the festival? A. Last year,
yes, sir.
Q. What is the festival ? A. That is when all the schools
get together and sing.
Q. What schools get together and sing? A. The ones
in the County.
Q. Is Riverside there? A. Sir?
Q, Is Riverside there? A. I don’t think so.
Q. It is in the County, isn’t it? A. Sir?
Q. It is in the County, isn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is Perry? A. No, sir.
Q. It is in the—Perry is in the County, also, isn’t it?
—17—
A. Yes.
Q. Is Gethsemane there? A. No, sir.
Q. It is also in the County, isn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And those are the three Negro schools? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they don’t participate in the festival ? A. I don’t
think so.
Q. Only all the white schools participate in the festival?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever had a Negro participate in the festival?
A. I don’t know whether one participated last year or not.
Q. Did you see one there? A. Not as I know of.
Deposition of Michael Dam, Matthews
1151a
Deposition of Wanda Lou Parrish
— 80—
* # * # #
C ross E xa m in a tion by M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Wanda Lon, when yon say you never saw K K K
written on any radiators, yon know—what does K K K
stand for? A. Ku Klux Klan.
— 81—
Q. How do you know that! A. I just do.
Q. Do yon know about the K K K around here! A. Yes,
sir, I have heard of it and all.
# * # # #
— 91—
• * # # #
C ross E xa m in a tion by M r. S ch w elb :
Q. You have been candid about telling us that there has
been some opposition by the white people to desegregation
here. I mean that is the truth, isn’t it!
—92—
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form of the
question.
Mr. Schwelb: (To witness) You can answer.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. You have said that haven’t you! A. Would you re
peat the question.
Q. You have testified already there has been some op
position among the white people here!
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form.
A. Yes, sir. I think there is some.
1152a
D ep o s itio n o f W anda L ou P a rrish
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Do you feel that way, too ? A. I feel that if they want
to go to the white schools, it is up to them.
Q. You don’t have any personal objection? A. No.
Q. Even if there was a lots of them, you don’t have any
personal objection? A. No, sir.
Q. If this case resulted in there would be a lot more
integration, that wouldn’t bother you, would it? A. No,
sir. If they want to go, they can.
Q. You don’t think it would upset the curriculum in some
way if there were a lot of Negro students going to school
with white students? A. No, sir, I don’t think so.
Q. As far as you are concerned, you are neutral? A.
—93—
That’s right.
Q. Basically, would you say it is true that a lot of that
opposition comes from older people?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. Yes, sir. I think people—they are not used to it; they
have to get used to the thing.
Q. And is it easier for you to get used to it than older
people ?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. Yes, sir. I think so. But I think everybody will get
used to it after awhile.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. You have heard of some of the Negro people who had
tacks put in their yards and telephone calls?
1153a
D ep o s itio n o f S hera l F ra z ie r
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. Yes, I have heard of that.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. You are not in favor of the people doing that! A.
No, sir, I don’t think so.
Q. And you do understand how that would intimidate
them a little bit, from going to the white schools?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. Yes, sir.
—104—
C ross E xa m in a tion by M r. C h a m b ers :
# * # * #
— 112—
* # # # #
Q. Did you eat in the cafeteria? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you go to the cafeteria with Alice Clanton? A.
Yes, sir. We eat lunch together.
Q. Did you sit together there in the cafeteria? A. No,
sir.
Q. Did you ever see Debra sit with her? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever see any of the white students sit with
her there? A. No, sir.
1154a
Deposition of Jerry Wayne Boone
—-119—
# * # • *
C ro ss E xa m in a tion b y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Jerry, would you say that Alice and Harold are close
friends of yours! A. No, sir.
— 120—
Q. Do you associate with them at all! A. Well, I don’t
associate with them real close because I have all my old
friends I knew, and they just come up there this year.
Q. And you don’t associate with colored people gen
erally! A. I mean I don’t exactly associate with them,
but some I know I associate with them some.
Q. You remember talking to me outside in the hall?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. If I understood you correctly, I believe you said you
were brought up not to associate with colored people? A.
No, sir, I didn’t say that.
Q. Would you tell me what you said? A. I say I wasn’t
brought up to, with them, but Harold and Alice—I didn’t
associate with them because they are not good friends of
mine. I have other friends of mine to associate with and
I didn’t know them that good.
Q. But you didn’t associate with them, those two colored
students at your school, did you, very much? I mean they
are not people you invite to your home ? A. No, sir.
Q. And I think you told me that if there were other
- 121-
colored students that came to your school, you’d feel the
same way? A. No, sir. I said if other colored students
came there, they wouldn’t bother me.
Q. It wouldn’t bother you if they come but you wouldn’t
associate with them? A. If I got to associate with them
I might associate with them.
1155a
Q. Didn’t you tell me outside that you were brought up
not to associate with them? A. No, sir.
Q. You didn’t? A. No, sir.
Q. Didn’t you say you were brought up not to associate
with them? A. No.
Q. Didn’t you say ninety-nine percent of the students
out there didn’t associate with them ? A. No, sir.
Q. What did you say? A. I say ninety-nine percent of
them didn’t associate with them this year because they have
other friends that they associate with and they didn’t know
them.
Q. So you told me that ninety-nine percent of the students
wouldn’t associate with them because they hadn’t known
— 122—
them long, and that was the only reason that ninety-nine
percent of them wouldn’t associate with them?A. Because
they didn’t know them.
Q. Are there other new students at the high school? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Do any of them associate with them? A. I don’t
know.
Q. Who are some of the new students at your school?
A. Tim Edwards is one.
Q. And do ninety-nine percent of the students not as
sociate with him? A. Well, you could say that. I mean
when they get to know them they associate with them.
Q. Have they got to know Harold and Alice yet? A.
Some of them.
Q. But ninety-nine percent of them have not? A. No,
sir.
Q. Only one percent associate with Harold and Alice?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why the ninety-nine percent? Why that number?
Deposition of Jerry Wayne Boone
1156a
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form of that ques
tion.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. I think you did tell me that you don’t believe in inte
gration in the hall outside? A. No, sir. We didn’t say
—123—
anything about integration.
Q. Well, are you for it! A. Well—
Q. Personally are you in favor of it? A. Yes, sir. I am
not really in favor of it, but it will come. I am accepting
them.
Q. You are accepting them to go to the school, but you
are not associating with them? A. No, sir, I said I’d as
sociate with them when I got to know them.
Q. Have you tried to get to know them? A. Not really,
because they don’t associate with me.
Q. Jerry, when did you find out you were going to testify
in this case? A. When?
Q. Yes. A. Today.
Q. This is the first time you heard about it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who told you about it? A. Mr. Yarborough.
Q. Did you discuss your testimony with him at that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. You didn’t discuss what you were going to say? A.
No, sir.
—124—
Q. Have you ever discussed it with him? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you discuss it with me outside in the hall? A.
Yes, I discussed it with you.
Q. But you didn’t discuss it with Mr. Yarborough? A.
Oh, I talked to him, but I didn’t discuss—I didn’t know what
you wanted.
Deposition of Jerry Wayne Boone
1157a
Q. What did yon discuss with Mr. Yarborough! A.
Well, just about the same I discussed with you.
Q. Did you discuss with him about the way ninety-nine
percent of the students felt! A. No, sir.
Q. Who is the last boy that you talked to before you
came into this room—him, I, or did you talk to one of
those! A. Mr. Yarborough.
Q. And you talked to him after you talked to me! Did
you discuss with Mr. Yarborough what you would discuss
with me! A. Well, about the same.
Q. And did Mr. Yarborough ask you what you had said
to me! A. No, sir.
Q. He just asked you what you knew about the Edward
Best School! A. Yes, sir.
—125—
Q. And you told him! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you told him the same thing you told me! A.
About the same thing.
Q. Now, you mentioned you do know Taylor Webb
Boone! A. Yes, sir.
Q. He is a relative of yours! A. Well, he may be far
off, but—
Q. How about William Taylor Boone! A. Yes, sir, I
know him, too, but he is not close. I live beside of him.
Q. Do you read the Franklin Times, Jerry! A. Once in
a while. It is not very imaginary reading.
Q. Can you name me any person besides Alice and
Harold that ninety-nine percent of the students at that
school do not associate with! A. Would you rephrase the
question !
Q; Besides Harold and Alice are there any students at
that school that ninety-nine percent of the students don’t
associate with! A. Any students besides them!
Deposition of Jerry Wayne Boone
1158a
Deposition of Ira Bowden
Q. Yes. A. Well, that new boy. I mean don’t many peo
ple associate with him because don’t many people know
— 126—
him yet.
Mr. Schwelb: I have no further questions.
# • • # *
— 142—
C ross E xa m in a tion b y M r. S ch w elb :
* • * # #
— 143—
Q. Isn’t it a fact, Mr. Bowden, that traditionally in
Franklin Couty Negroes and whites have lived and gone to
separate schools and separate places? A. Yeah, it is a
fact, they always have.
Q. They always have. It is also a fact that traditionally
Negroes have gone to Perry’s School and the white stu
dents in your area to Edward Best? A. That’s right.
Q. And it is also traditional that Negroes have taught
in the Perry’s School and the whites in Edward Best? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And it is always traditionally that whites have at
tended separate churches and Negroes the other churches?
A. Yes, it is.
* • # * #
—148—
# • • # •
Q. And it is just not traditional for the whites in your
area to visit in the homes of the Negroes—is that correct?
A. That’s right.
—149—
Q. Let me ask you this, Mr. Bowden: you testified you
have read and heard about the Ku Klux Klan even in this
area, haven’t you? A. Yes.
1159a
Q. You know that they have been somewhat active in
Franklin County! A. Yes, they have been. Some action.
Q. You know, don’t you, that the Ku Klux Klan is against
integration? A. Well, I don’t know but very little about
it, but from what little I know, what little I have heard of
it is against it.
Q. Strongly against it? A. Strongly against it, yes.
Q. And they have a reputation, whether it is right or not,
that they engage in either violence or at least intimidation
against people who agree with it?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Don’t the Ku Klux Klan have a reputation for in
timidating people sometimes?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. Well, I don’t understand enough about that to really
know about it.
Q. Excuse me, Mr. Bowden, how old are you? A. Sixty-
six.
—150—
Q. You know the stories about the Klan in the old days
burning the crosses, don’t you?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. Yes.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. And that was done in the old days to frighten the
Negroes, wasn’t it? A. Yes.
Deposition of Ira Bowden
1160a
Q. And they still burn the same crosses now, don’t they,
as far as you know? A. May I bring in something right
there that you didn’t—
Q. Sure. A. I know back when I was in my teens, and
I might have been up as high as twenty, but that was—
that Klan was in action along during that time. And I know
—now, this is what I know. I didn’t have to read that in
the paper. I didn’t have to read that to know. But I know
of two or three in my community—I don’t remember—they
might have got a colored man somewhere. I don’t remem
ber. But they got at least three white men in my com
munity and waited on them and they straightened up.
Q. Are you talking about people who were stepping out
on their wives, something like that? A. Something sim
ilar.
—151—
Q. What did the Klan do to them? A. They took them
out and let them know what was what.
Q. Did they whip them? A. Yes, they whipped them if
it was necessary.
Q. And you don’t have any doubt that they whipped Ne
groes in the past, do you? A. No, I don’t have any doubt.
The probably whipped some of them.
Q. You know they have been against integration? A.
Yes.
Q. Now, most of the County know that there is a strong
Klan in the County?
Mr. Yarborough: Objection to the form.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. So far as you know most of the people know there is
a strong Klan in the County? A. Yes, sir.
Deposition of Ira Bowden
1161a
Q. And the Negroes know, too, about the Klan? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And most of them know they don’t approve of Ne
groes going to the white schools?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Yau can answer that, can’t you! Most of them know
that the Klan disapproves of their going to white schools?
A. Well, I don’t know too much about it. I don’t know just
exactly their situation, only—anyway, it seems that I ’d
think that they were against it.
—152—
Q. You think that the Klan is against the Negroes going
to white schools? A. Yes.
Q. And most people in the Community think that?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. You believe that most people in the community think
the same way?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. Some do and some don’t.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. You believe that most of the people think that the
Klan is in favor of integration? A. Not too much.
Q. There are no such people, are there? A. Well, there
is people.
Deposition of Ira Bowden
1162a
Q. Do you know anyone that thinks that the Klan is in
favor of integration? A. No.
Q. Do you know some people who think that the Klan is
against integration? A. Yes, I do.
Q. Now, do you understand what we mean by free choice?
A. What you mean by how now?
Q. By free choice? A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Now, if somebody is afraid that the Klan will do some
thing to him, his choice isn’t really free, is it?
—153—
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. That’s right, isn’t it? If somebody feels intimidated,
his choice is not free? A. It is not—well—
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. The way I would say that would be of a free—I would
say that we should be free instead of—
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Instead of not free? A. Yes. Certainly, we should
be free. I don’t know exactly if this is the proper place,
if this is what your thinking is. It is a free choice, if that
is what you mean.
Q. If somebody is afraid of the Klan if he does one
thing and not afraid of the Klan if he does another thing,
his choice isn’t really free to do those two things, is it?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
Deposition of Ira Bowden
1163a
A. If he wants to do something—this is my way now—to
say if he wants to do something wrong in some way. But
as long as a man—what I am going to do today or tonight,
if I am here or elsewhere, I am not afraid. I don’t stand
in any fear of the Klan because I am not going out of the
way. I am not going—I am going to be in line of causing
to honesty and truth.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
—154—
Q. You are not doing anything that the Klan doesn’t like,
is that right? A. No. That’s right. I am not doing any
thing that they—but what they uphold.
Q. So, therefore, you are not afraid of them? A. No, I
am not afraid of the Klan. No.
# # * # #
—5—
# # # # #
C ross-E xa m in a tion by M r. S cliw e lb :
Q. Now, Mrs. Harris, you testified that they wanted to go
to Gethsemane where they had been going. A. Yes.
Q. Now, the oldest daughter is in the ninth grade? A.
Yes, she is.
— 6—
Q. And she has been going to Gethsemane continuously
since she was a small child? A. Yes, she has.
Q. Now, when she first went to Gethsemane she didn’t
have the choice of going to Bunn High School, did she? A.
No, she didn’t.
Q. It was as a result of the school board segregation pol
icies that she went?
Deposition of Mattie G. C. Harris
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
1164a
D ep o s itio n o f M a ttie G. G. H a rris
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. It was as a result of the school board policies that
she first started to Gethsemane, is that right! A. She
started there.
Q. She started there because the Negro children weren’t
at that time going to the white schools, were they?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form?
A. That’s right.
Q. You testified that the children picked this school
themselves? A. Yes, they did.
Q. I believe the oldest child is called Jeris. A. Jeris,
yes.
Q. What grade is she in? A. Ninth grade.
—7—
Q. Does she have a former classmate that goes to Bunn
High School? A. Yes. She has two former classmates that
go to Bunn.
Mr. Yarborough: How do you spell her name?
A. J-e-r-i-s.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Do you know, did Jeris tell you or did anybody tell
you whether one of those girls that went to Bunn High
School discussed with her whether she liked it or not,
with Jeris?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. Well, at the time. I mean when she talked to Jeris I
don’t think she had started to go because she didn’t want
1165a
to leave her friends, but I think she has gotten adjusted
to it.
Q. She didn’t want to leave her friends where— A. At
Gethsemane.
Q. Originally. Now, Mrs. Harris, how do your children
get to Gethsemane School? A. They go by bus.
Q. And is there any other school that the bus passes be
fore it gets to Gethsemane? A. Yes, it is.
Q. What school is that? A. It passes Bunn High School.
Q. About how long do they ride it? A. Let me see. I
—8—
think school is out at 3 :15 or 3 :30 and they get home around
4:00.
Q. So they ride a half an hour or forty-five minutes each
day? A. Yes.
Q. Each way? A. Yes.
Q. So that is an hour and a half each day on the bus?
A. In the mornings it isn’t quite that long, while they are
on the bus, because they go from home on to the school,
but they pass the white school just the same.
Q. Now, in the area of Bunn, Mrs. Harris, are there
some white children who live nearer the Gethsemane School
who go to Bunn School? A. I think so.
Q. And there are certainly some Negro children who live
near the Bunn School that go to the Gethsemane School?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. Yes, it is.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Now, if each child went to the school closest to him,
there wouldn’t be a lot of that bussing; it would be com
pletely unnecessary? A. That’s right.
Deposition of Mattie G. C. Harris
1166a
Deposition of Mattie G. C. Harris
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. That’s right, it would be.
— 9—
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Now, Mrs. Harris, I would like to ask you whether
you know Mrs. Satterwhite. A. What is that?
Q. Do you know Mrs. Satterwhite, the mother of Jean
Carol Satterwhite? A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you have any information as to any difficulty she
might have had after her child went to the white school?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. Yes, I heard.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. What did you hear? A. I heard that she was work
ing, and after they found out her child was enrolled in Bunn
white school, they said they didn’t no longer need her.
Q. Have you heard of other Negroes who sent their chil
dren to white schools that had difficulty of that kind?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. Difficulties. Seems like I heard of some.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Do you know Reverend Dunston? A. Yes, I do.
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
1167a
D ep o s itio n o f M a ttie G. C. H a rris
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Have you heard of him having any difficulty! A.
— 10—
Seems like I read in the paper that he had some difficulties.
Q. How much education do you have, Mrs. Harris? A.
High school and a little bit of college education.
Q. You are generally familiar with what the Ku Klux
Klan stands for?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. I think so.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Are they for or against integration? A. I would say
they are against.
Q. You have heard of some Klan activities in the Frank
lin County area?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. Yes, I have.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. And these activities you think are against integra
tion?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. That would be my opinion.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Now, in your judgment, Mrs. Satterwhite’s difficulty
with that job, was that because of sending her children to
the white schools?
1168a
Mr. Davis: Objection.
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. That is what I heard.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. In your judgment are most of the white people in
— 11—
your community for or against integration?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. I would think they are against it.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Do you know very many white people who work for
Negroes in the Franklin County area?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. In the homes.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Do you know any Negroes who have white employees?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What Negroes do you know who have white em
ployees? A. Mr. Robert Mitchell. I think has one.
Q. What kind of work does he do? A. Works on a farm.
Q. And he has a white person working for him? A. I
thought you said—
Q. I am asking you do you know any Negroes who have
white people working for them. A. No. I ’m sorry. No, I
don’t.
Deposition of Mattie G. C. Harris
1169a
Q. Do you know any white people who have Negroes
working for them? A, I—that is the question I thought
I was answering. Mr. Bobert Mitchell has one working fol
ium. He is a white man in Bunn.
— 12—
Q. Do many of the Negroes in Franklin County work for
white people?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. No. They most all have public jobs.
Q. For instance, do some of the Negro ladies work in
private homes?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. As maids? A. I think so.
Q. Now, to some extent the Negroes in Franklin County
are dependent on white people—
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. For their financial ends; the white people pay their
wages—isn’t that true—some Negroes in Franklin County?
A. Yes, some of them. Most of them in the recent months
I’d say the Negro has had a chance to do public work,
and that is what he is doing now mostly.
Q. Now, most of the Negroes who are financially inde
pendent are farmers?
Deposition of Mattie G. C. Harris
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
1170a
A, Yes,
Deposition of Mattie G. C. Harris
Mr. Schwelb: Mr. Yarborough, are you objecting
to the questions being too leading?
Mr. Yarborough: I am objecting to bringing in
- 1 3 -
hearsay or opinion.
Mr. Schwelb: Let me say, for the record, there
was ample hearsay put in on direct.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Now, the acts of violence and other harassment that
you have heard of that you testified to your knowledge, as
far as you know has that happened in the homes of Ne
groes who sent their children to white schools or in the
homes of Negroes who sent their children to Negro schools?
A. That is where the children have been going to all white
schools.
Q. Now, talking about that bus again, Mrs. Harris, that
your children ride for half an hour or so at night and a
little less than that during the day, if all the children were
sent to the nearest school would that—that would save
some—have to save the School Board some money, wouldn’t
it?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
Mr. Davis: Object. Mr. Schwelb, you asked her
something about the children riding the bus at night.
They don’t ride at night.
Mr. Schwelb: I will correct that to ‘after school.’
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. If each child went to the nearest school, the children
wouldn’t have to be bussed as far? A. No—wouldn’t have
to be what?
1171a
Deposition of Mattie G. C. Harris
—14—
Q. Bussed as far? A. No.
Q. And that would cost the School Board less money?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Don’t you think it would? A. Maybe it would.
Q. Now, as of a year ago did Gethsemane School have a
cafeteria? A. No, it didn’t.
Q. And you mentioned that you told that some of your
children were—some of the facilities wTere better at Bunn
than at Gethsemane. What are some of those, if you know?
A. That is what I was telling them.
Q. I f the School Board didn’t have to spend that money
on bussing, they could spend that money on their facilities?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form. Those things
are argumentative and I do not think it is proper
in a deposition. I do not think it is at all proper
in Court and I do not think that a question should
be asked here that could not be properly asked in the
presence of a jury.
Mr. Schwelb: I will stick with my questions, and
you have your objections.
—15—
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Isn’t that true, Mrs. Harris. Some of that money
could be spent for Gethsemane School, couldn’t it? A. I
guess it could.
Q. Now, in your personal judgment would it be more or
less sensible—
Mr. Y arborough: Object to the form.
1172a
D ep o s itio n o f M a ttie G. C. H a rris
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. To send—to have the children assigned to the nearest
school? A. Do I think it would be?
Q. Do you think it would be better or worse if every
child in the County went to the nearest school? A. For
some reasons it might be better. I ’d say for my children,
maybe, their education would be better if they had the same
subjects and the same courses. Now, for the other reason,
I wouldn’t know whether it would be or not.
Mr. Schwelb: I have no further questions.
Cross-Examination by Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mrs. Harris, how long have you been staying in
Franklin County? A. I am a lifetime citizen.
Q. What is your husband’s name ? A. Charles Harris.
Q. Is he a life-long citizen of Franklin County, also?
—16—
A. He was born in Franklin County, yes.
Q, And your mail route is Zebulon? A. Yes, it is.
Q. How far are you from Zebulon? A. Around eleven
or twelve miles.
Q. Do you go to Zebulon frequently? A. Not too fre
quent.
Q. Do you know anybody staying in Zebulon? A. Yes,
Ido.
Q. Do you know some Negroes who stay down there?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you know anything about the activities that go
on in Zebulon? So far as race relations are concerned. A.
I have heard of some. Zebulon or somewhere over in Wake
County.
1173a
Q. Did you hear of some incidents in Zebulon recently,
a racial incident?
Mr. Davis: Object.
A. I can’t recall. Seems like I read something in the paper,
but I can’t recall offhand.
B y M r. C h a m b ers:
Q. You don’t recall what it was about! A. In Zebulon?
Q. Yes. A. I heard of an incident—I know about an
incident in Wendell.
Q. In Wendell. What was that incident in Wendell!
— 17—
A. A well poisoning.
Q. Well poisoning? A. Yes, and cross burning.
Q. Do you know whose home was involved? A. The pa
per stated it was Isham.
Q. Was that Negro or White? A. He is Negro.
Q. Now, you say that was where? A. Well, in Wendell
I think. It was in Wake County, anyway.
Q. How far is Wendell from here? A. About sixteen
miles.
Q. And Zebulon is about how far from here? A. It is
eleven or twelve miles.
Q. This incident, did it involve a Negro attending a
white school? A. Yes, it did.
Q. And that was recently, wasn’t it? A. Yes, it was.
* # # # #
—29—
R ecross-E xa m in a tion by M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Mrs. Harris—I am going to approach the witness.
Mrs. Harris, I am going to show you a copy of School
Deposition of Mattie 0. C. Harris
1174a
Desegregation Plan under Title 6 of the Civil Rights Act
of 1964, which is attached as Exhibit E to the defendants’
answers to the plaintiffs’ interrogatories in this case. I
would like you to read number 6, “Courses and Program
of Information”, the introduction, please. A. “ To guide
students and parents in making a choice of schools, listed
below by schools are the courses and programs which are
not given at every school in this school system.”
Q. Now, I would like you to read the schools that are
checked on geography. The schools are listed here. A.
Bunn and Edward Best High School.
Q. What about advanced algebra and trigonometry? A.
Bunn and Louisburg.
Q. What about agriculture? A. Bunn, Edward Best
High School, Gold Sand, Riverside, Youngsville, Epsom.
Q. Now, what about consumer math? A. Bunn and
Perry’s.
Q. What about shorthand? A. Bunn, Epsom, Louis
burg, Edward Best High School and Riverside.
—30—
Q. What about Spanish I ? A. Bunn, Epsom, Gold Sand.
Q. What about Spanish II? A. Bunn and Epsom.
Q. What about physical education and health II? A.
Bunn, Perry’s, Youngsville High School, Louisburg.
Q. Now, what about chemistry? A. Bunn, Epsom, Louis
burg, Riverside, Edward Best High School.
Mr. Schwelb: Now, I have no further questions.
Mr. Chambers: I have no questions.
R e-R ed irec t E xa m in a tion by M r. D a v is :
Q. Mrs. Harris, when your children picked Gethsemane
High School, of course, you knew then that shorthand was
not offered there? A. Yes, I did.
Deposition of Mattie G. C. Harris
1175a
Q. And you knew it was offered at Bunn? A. I heard
it was.
Deposition of Arnee Ilartsfield
Mr. Schwelb: Nothing further.
Mr. Chambers: E have no further questions.
—56—
# # # # #
C ross E xa m in a tion toy M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Mrs. Hartsfield, you mentioned that you—that, when
Mr. Yarborough referred to Bunn, you referred to it as
the white school? A. Yes.
Q. And you think of it as the white school? A. Yes.
Q. And you think of Gethsemane as the colored school?
A. That’s right.
Q. So the choice you had was between the white school
and the colored school? A. That’s right.
Q. Are you on welfare, Mrs. Hartsfield? A. Yes.
— 57—
Q. And you do day work for white people sometimes, do
you? A. I get a day’s work about once a week. It is not a
whole day. Now, I go iron for about two hours, or some
thing like that.
Q. Is that for white people or colored people? A. It’s
for a white lady there in Bunn.
Q. I believe you used to work at the Bunn School in the
cafeteria? A. Yes, I worked there last year about a month.
Q. While you were working at the Bunn School in the
cafeteria, Mrs. Hartsfield, were there other Negroes work
ing at the Bunn School? A. Well, I was the only one in
the cafeteria, but there’s two more that works there, you
know.
1176a
Q. What kind of work did they do? A. Well, jnst do
the office work, the cleaning.
Q. The clean-up work? A. Yes.
Q. Janitors? A. That’s right.
Q. So you know all the teachers at that time were white,
weren’t they? A. At Bunn.
Q. Bunn. At that time, when you were working there.
—58—
A. I don’t remember of a colored teacher last year, but
there’s one there this year.
Q. One colored teacher this year? A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mrs. Hartsfield, the name of your children,
grandchildren are Terry and— A. Terry and Otis Bay.
Q. Let me ask you this: how do they get to school? A.
My children?
Q. Yes. A. They go on a bus.
Q. And how long does it take them to go on the bus, do
you know? A. From my house?
Q. Yes. A. It don’t take them over five or ten minutes.
It’s not too far.
Q. Do they go directly from your home? A. Yes, right
from my home.
Q. How far is that? A. About a mile? A. It might be
a mile and a half.
Q. And how far is the Bunn School from your house?
A. Well, it’s not far. I can see the Bunn School from my
house.
Q. It is nearer than Gethsemane, isn’t it? A. That’s
—5 9 -
right.
Q. And they wouldn’t need a bus to go there, would they?
A. No.
Deposition of Arnee Hartsfield
1177a
Q. Just walk it in a couple of minutes, couldn’t you? A.
That’s right.
Q. Now, you made the choice for your grandchildren
last year, didn’t you? A. That’s right.
Q. And you said that you are perfectly satisfied with
the conditions at Gethsemane—I mean you are perfectly
satisfied with the courses and so on. Is that what you told
Mr. Yarborough? A. Well, they have been doing fine as
far as I know.
Q. Your younger grandson isn’t satisfied, is he? You
know that, don’t you?
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form of the
question.
Mr. Schwelb: (To witness) You can answer the
question.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. You know he is not satisfied with the courses and the
equipment, don’t you? A. You know how children are.
They don’t know when they are satisfied at all.
Q. Tell me. A. Well, he didn’t have no complaints.
—60—
Q. You remember that I talked to him and I talked to you
at the same time, didn’t I? A. That’s right.
Q. And isn’t it true that your son, this boy, your grand
son said he wanted to be a scientist and they have much
better laboratory facilities and such things at Bunn? A.
Yes, he did say that.
Q. And that is true? A. Yes.
Q. And he also said he’d like to go to the Bunn School if
there were more Negro children going—isn’t that right?
A. Yes.
Deposition of Arnee Hartsfield
1178a
Q. I asked you to bring him here today, didn’t I? A.
Yes.
Q. And you didn’t bring him here. A. I told you I
wouldn’t make you no promise.
Q. I know you did. As far as you know, what Terry said
about wanting to be a scientist, he could be a scientist better
at Bunn!
Mr. Davis: Objection.
Mr. Yarborough: Objection to the form.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. From what he said yesterday he thinks he could get
a better education at Bunn, doesn’t he! A. That is what
—61—
he said.
Deposition of Arnee Hartsfield
Mr. Schwelb: I have no further questions.
C ross E xa m in a tion b y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Mrs. Hartsfield, would you like to see the Gethsemane
School remain all Negro! A. Well, it wouldn’t make any
difference with me.
Q. Would you like to see the Bunn School remain all
white! A. Well, it wouldn’t make any difference with me.
Q. Would you like to see all the Negro teachers remain
at Gethsemane! A. Well, that would be all right, too, if
that is what they want.
Q. Would you like to see all the white teachers remain
at Bunn! A. Well, I tell you, I hadn’t had no thoughts
about that.
Q. In other words, you don’t know one way or another
1179a
about integration of the schools here in this County! A.
No, not too much.
• • * • •
Deposition of Mattie W. Crudup
—65—
* • * • •
C ross E xa m in a tion by M r. K e n n e d y .
Q. Mrs. Crucup, you mentioned that your daughter, Mrs.
Harris, lives with you and has children going to school.
Who exercises the choice for your grandchildren—you or
Mrs. Harris! A. Mrs. Harris.
Q. Have you ever exercised the choice for any of her
them! A. Any of her children!
Q. Yes. A. No, I haven’t.
Q. Have you ever exercised any choice for any children?
A. No.
Q. Have you previously met Mr. Yarborough, the at
torney here? A. I have.
Q. Has he ever done any legal work for you? Have you
been a client of his ? A. I have never been a client, but he
— 66—
did some work for me.
Q. Mrs. Crudup, you know the Bunn School in your com
munity and also the Gethsemane School? A. Yes, I do.
Q. You do know that at the Bunn School most all the
pupils there are white? A. Yes.
Q. And most all the teachers there are white? A. All
is white as far as I know.
Q. As far as you know? A. That’s right.
Q. And at Gethsemane all the teachers are Negroes and
all the students are Negroes? A. That’s right.
Q. And maybe there are a few Negro children at Bunn ?
A. That’s right.
1180a
Q. Now, if you went to Bunn as a student, would you
feel lonely!
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
Mr. Kennedy: (To witness) You may answer.
A. Would I feel lonely!
B y M r. K e n n e d y :
Q. Yes. A. Well, now, I wouldn’t feel as free—what I
mean—as I would be at the school that I had been going
—67—
to. That is all I have to say.
Mr. Schwelb: Go ahead and finish your answer.
A. Because you feel—you don’t feel as free—what I mean—
with other races as you would with the ones you had been
going with all the time.
B y M r. K e n n e d y :
Q. So you had rather what! If there were a good number
of Negro children at Bunn, how would you feel about that!
A. Well, I would feel freer I think.
Q. What about if there were some more Negro teachers
at Bunn. Would that have an effect on the way you felt?
A. It—probably it would.
Q. What effect would it have? A. It’s still the same
thing. I would feel more freer. Of course, now, you under
stand I am not afraid of none of them over there, the white,
but I would just feel freer.
Deposition of Mattie W. Crudup
Mr. Kennedy: No more questions.
1181a
C ross E xa m in a tion by M r. C h a m b ers:
Q. Mrs. Crudup, are you a native of Franklin County!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Been here all of your life? A. All of my life.
—68—
Q. The daughter that you indicated—is that a grand-
daugthter or your daughter? A. Where?
Q. That stays with you? A. It is a daughter. She is
my daughter and these children are her children.
Q. I see. What is your daughter’s name? A. Mrs.
Geraldine Harris.
Q. Now, how many children does she have? A. Three.
Q. Your daughter’s name is Mattie Geraldine Crudup
Harris? A. Mattie Geraldine Crudup Harris.
Q. Do you work anywhere, Mrs. Crudup? A. No.
Q. Have you ever worked? A. Yes, I worked on the
farm. That is all.
Q. What farm did you work on? A. On my farm.
Q. And that is in— A. Franklin County, Dunn Town
ship.
Q. Dunn Township? A. Yes, un-hunh.
Q. When Mr. Yarborough spoke at this meeting, the
PTA meeting that you attended, did he advise you that
— 69—
they were going to desegregate teachers at Bunn and Geth-
semane? A. Well, maybe he did. I tell you, honestly tell
you, I can’t remember all the things that he stated, but I
remember this one particular thing that he mentioned two
or three times, that each child had his choice of school and
just name the school and they would get it.
Q. I see. Did he indicate that if a Negro child selected
a white school that if the family had any problems that
they would do something about it? A. I think he did.
Deposition of Mattie W. Crudup
1182a
Q. Did lie read the order of the Court to you? A. May
be he did.
Q. Do you recall whether he did? A. No, I don’t recall
that right just now, because he really said so many things
until I just can’t commit it all to memory. That is really
true.
Q. Mrs. Crudup, do you recall the Klan marching through
the City of Louisburg in 1965? A. Yes, I heard about
them marching.
Q. Have you heard about any other Klan activity in
Franklin County? A. Well, maybe so.
—70—
Q. Is it your opinion that the Klan is opposed to inte
gration of the schools? A. I would think so from what I
ean hear and what I have read.
Q. Do you know anything about any incidents that some
Negro families have had in Franklin County recently as a
result of trying to get their children in integrated schools?
A. Now, I have heard of some accidents happening, but
what it was all about I don’t know.
Q. Did you hear about Reverend Dunston? A. Yes.
Q. Did you hear about Reverend Coppedge? A. No, not
until yesterday.
Q. Did you hear about Mrs. Arrington? A. No, not
Mrs. Arrington. But I heard either Mrs. Arrington or
Mrs. Anderson—I heard of Mrs. Anderson.
Q. What Mrs. Anderson? A. Mrs. T. O. Anderson. She
is our music teacher at Gethsemane School, and it seemed
that there was a bomb thrown in her yard.
Q. Is that Mr. James Anderson’s wife? A. I don’t know.
No, she is Mrs. T. 0. Anderson.
Q. T. O. Anderson. Is she a Negro or white? A. Yes,
she is a Negro.
Deposition of Mattie W. Crudup
1183a
Deposition of Ruby E. Perry
—71—
Q. What school does she teach at? A. She is our music
teacher at Gethsemane.
Q. At Gethsemane? A. That’s right.
Q. Did you hear about the incident at Franklinton re
cently? A. Yes, I heard something about it.
Q. Do you know whether that was an incident connected
with desegregation of the schools in Franklinton? A. I
don’t know.
• • • * *
—145—
* # * * #
C ross-E xa m in a tion b y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Mrs. Perry, now, you said your children or you
selected Cedar Street School, didn’t you? A. Yes, that’s
right.
Q. And none of the people whose houses were shot into
had their children at Cedar Street School, did they? A.
Well, no, I don’t think they did.
Q. They had their children in the white schools, didn’t
they? A. Yes.
Q. So you really didn’t have anything to be afraid of
when they went to Cedar Street School, did you? A. I
tell you, it might be with going there when it happened.
That makes a difference. And mine was already at Cedar
Street when that happened, so that would make a dif
ference. No, I won’t scared because—after that shooting
deal I didn’t just take them and stick my children in Cedar
Street. They already was going there in the beginning.
—146—
Q. I understand. Let me ask you this about the inci
dents that Mr. Yarborough discussed with you and we
1184a
talked about yesterday. Now, as far as—did tbey happen,
with children that were in the white schools or children
that were in the colored schools? A. Now, the Fogg boy
—he have some in the white school.
Q. And you know about Beverend Coppedge? A. Yes.
Q. And he had some trouble? A. Yes. He had one in
school. I heard about that.
Q. And you know Mrs. Arrington, don’t you? A. Yes.
Q. And where did she live? A. They didn’t have any,
I don’t think. I think they was in Biverside.
Q. Do you know whether or not she was a plaintiff in
the lawsuit suing the school, trying to get it desegregated
—did you know that? A. Well, yes, I heard about that.
Q. That was well known, wasn’t it? A. Yes, I heard
about it.
Q. Mrs. Perry, actually the FBI came to talk to you
about the Fogg shooting, didn’t they? A. Yes, he did.
He sure did. He came down there Monday. Well, he was
at the front door, and I asked him—I said, “Come on in,”
—147—
and he said, “I am the FBI,” and I said, “I know it.” And
he showed me his badge and he asked me did I hear it,
and I told him no. I said, “I worked this Friday so hard,
I tell you the truth, after I cooked supper I was so tired
I had to sit down, and when I sit down I went right
to sleep.” And everybody was in the bed but me, and I
was sitting up there—the T.V. was going, and when I
woke up, I happen always to go peep to the window, and
I went to the window and I said, “See all the cars,” and
I said, “Somebody must be dead,” and my husband said,
“You’d better put yourself in the bed,” so I didn’t know
nothing until the next day.
Deposition of Ruby E. Perry
1185a
Q. Tour husband said, “You’d better put yourself in the
bed.” And he said he reckoned it would be safer!
Mr. Yarborough. I object.
A. No. He said everybody is in the bed but just me and
I was sitting in the big chair. I was asleep. I was so tired.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Let me ask you this, Mrs. Perry— A. I didn’t hear
it.
Q. Do you think the white people in Franklin County
are in favor of integration! Do you think most of them are
in favor of integration, they want to see the same advan
tages for the colored children as the whites have? A. I
—148—
don’t know about that.
Q. Tell us about what you think about it?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. I don’t know. I don’t know wrkat they think. I ain’t
asked none of them or nothing. I don’t know.
Q. You remember talking to me yesterday? A. Yes, I
do.
Q. Do you recall telling me that you felt that the white
people didn’t want the colored to go to the white schools?
A. Well, I don’t—in a way I don’t.
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
Deposition of Ruby E. Perry
1186a
D ep o s itio n o f R u b y E . P e r r y
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Before this matter came to court they—did they
let colored children go to white schools I A. No. In North
Carolina, no. But they did in the city.
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form.
A. They did in the city. In North Carolina no colored
didn’t go to no white school, in North Carolina, before the
segregation started, did it. Do, I didn’t know it.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. In Franklin County—that is what I mean. A. In
Franklin County—that what you mean? This is what
—149—
I mean.
Q. Had you had your child in a white school, apart from
being afraid—you know that Reverend Coppedge, Mrs.
Arrington, and the Fogg people had some trouble, don’t
you? A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any way of knowing that you wouldn’t
have any trouble? A. Well, I don’t think I would.
Q. You don’t know whether you would or not? A. No,
I sure don’t.
Q. Have you heard about the Ku Klux Klan? A. Yes,
I have.
Q. Have you heard about them being in Franklin County ?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you think they are for integration or for segrega
tion? A. I don’t know.
Q. You don’t know. When they burn those crosses, do
1187a
you think that is to encourage Negroes, or discourage!
A. I think it is to discourage. I don’t know.
Q. Do you think that the Ku Klux Klan may have some
thing to do with those other incidents?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. Say what?
—150—
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Do you think that the Ku Klux Klan may have been
some of the people that bothered Keverend Coppedge and
Mrs. Arrington, James Cheek and Keverend Dunston ?
You think the Ku Klux Klan may have had something
to do with that? A. Yes.
Q. You do think so, don’t you? A. Yes.
Q. Now, if you sent your children to a white school, you
think the Ku Klux Klan would like that any better than
James Cheek sending his child?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. I wouldn’t know what to say. I don’t think they would.
Q. You don’t think they would like it, do you, Mrs.
Perry? A. No, won’t like me no better. I work for seven
different families right here in Louisburg. I don’t think
they would like me any better.
Q. You think they would like you any worse? A. It
would be the same thing I imagine.
Q. As what? A. As the other colored man. I work
for seven different families, I said, right here in town.
Q. Let me ask you this, Mrs. Perry: you mentioned
Deposition of Ruby E. Perry
1188a
Deposition of Ruby E. Perry
—151—
that you worked for seven different families. Do a lot of
colored people work for white people here in Louisburg?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. Do very many white people work for colored people?
A. No, I don’t think they do, I do not, in the house work.
Q. Let me ask you about Cedar Street School. Now,
your oldest child went there when she was in the first
grade! A. First.
Q. And she is in the sixth grade now, isn’t she? A.
Yes, sixth.
Q. And she didn’t have the opportunity to go to a white
school when she first started, did she? A. No.
Q. She had to go there? A. Yes. That was close to
the school, too, anyway.
Q. You testified you like for your children to stay to
gether, didn’t you? A. Yes.
Q. And the older one can look after the younger one?
A. Yes.
Q. That is important to you, isn’t it? A. Yes.
—152—
Q. Now, if the older one had been assigned to a white
school, then you wouldn’t mind the younger one going to
a white school, would you?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. I don’t reckon I would, if they had started in the be
ginning.
Q. I f they had started in the beginning, you wouldn’t
have any objection to it at all, would you? A. No.
1189a
Deposition of Charlie White
—7—
# * # # #
C ross E xa m in a tion b y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Mr. White, how much education have you had? A.
Well, I went to the eighth grade. I went to Washington. I
was in Washington, D. C. when I was a kid. I went to
school there two years when I was a boy, but by chance
my mother got sick and they sent me back. And I went to
Ohio University, and then I went back and finished up the
seventh grade here, and the—at least I finished up there
the seventh grade.
Q. Now, Mr. White, you testified you made a choice for
all your—of school for your youngest child and the older
child made his choice himself. A. He chose his own.
Q. He chose his own school, but when you made a choice
for the younger child did you consider Cedar Street to be
a Negro school? A. I considered it a school. I know it is
a school.
—8—
Q. It is a Negro school or a white school? A. Colored
people go there.
Q. What about Louisubrg? Do mostly Negroes go there
or is it a white school? A. White school.
Q. So you understood it was basically a choice between
a white school and a Negro school? A. I understood it
was—always been like it is. It’s always been a good school.
Q. What is the race of the teachers at Louisburg school?
A. I don’t know. I don’t know.
Q. You don’t know the race. Do you know the race of
the teachers at Cedar Street? A. I know they seem to
have a right good rate.
1190a
Q. No, the race. A. Oh, they are colored.
Q. Let me ask you this, Mr. White: do you know Rever
end Dunston? A. Yes, sir, very well.
Q. And do you know Mrs. Irene Arrington? A. Yes, I
know her.
Q. And do you know James Cheek? A. Yes, I know
him.
Q. And do you know Mr. and Mrs. Fogg who live near
Reverend Dunston? A. Yes, sir.
—9—
Q. And did you know that Mr. Fogg’s house was shot
into? A. I heard it was shot into.
Q. You heard it was shot into. Did you know that he
sent his children to a white school? A. Yes, I heard.
Q. And do you know Mrs. Arrington’s house was shot
into? A. Yes, I know.
Q. And you heard she sent her children to a white
school? A. Yes.
Q. You knew that, didn’t you? A. Yes, I knew.
Q. And did you know that Reverend Dunston had nails
put in his driveway and had other difficulties? A. Yes, I
heard. I didn’t know. I heard.
Q. You heard. Who did you hear it from? A. From
just first one and another.
Q. Did you believe it? A. I ain’t heard him say nothing
about it, to tell you the truth about it.
Q. Did you believe it? A. I ain’t had no choice.
— 10—
Q. Did you hear about James Cheek? A. I hear about
it, but I ain’t heard James say anything about it.
Q. You heard it happened? A. I heard it happened.
Q. And you heard that a lot of people who sent their
Deposition of Charlie White
1191a
children to the white schools had a lot of difficulty! A. No.
I heard—I read about it.
Q. And have you heard there is a Ku Klux Kian in
Franklin County? A. No, I don’t know about the Ku Klux
Klan. I heard it was in North Carolina, but I don’t know
so much about Franklin County.
Q. Do you read the Franklin Times? A. I read it.
Q. Did you read about when they had a march through
the City of Louisburg? A. Seems like I did.
Q. And have you heard about crosses being burned in
Franklin County? A. Seems like I heard about some
crosses being burned.
Q. Did you think the Ku Klux Klan is for integration or
against integration?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. I don’t know.
— 11—
Q. Do you have an opinion about that? A. I don’t have
any opinion about that.
Q. Now, you mentioned that—I think in response to Mr.
Davis’ question, you said you never thought about sending
your children to any other school A. Yes. All of my
children went there. I raised ten. And the first school I
started out in was there. There was a one roomer. Mr.
Mills was the superintendent at that time. He built what
we called Oak Grove School. And moved that school and
started Cedar Street. So all of my children been going to
Cedar Street ever since.
Q. Your children have always gone to Cedar Street? A.
Yes.
Deposition of Charlie White
1192a
Q. Until about two or three years ago the Negro chil
dren had to go to Cedar Street. A. I don’t know where
they went.
Q. Were they assigned there! A. I don’t know whether
they had to go there.
Q. Weren’t they assigned to the Negro schools until two
or three years ago! A. I don’t know.
Q. Did they go to Negro schools, in fact? A. Yes, they
went to Negro schools.
Q. Let me ask you this: have you heard of any Negroes
— 12—
who sent their children to Negro schools whose houses were
shot into? A. No, I haven’t.
Q. But you have heard of some that sent their children
to white schools whose houses were shot into? A. Yes, I
know some that was shot into. And years ago weren’t
nothing about no schools. Some say it was liquor stealing.
Q. When was that? A. A long time ago.
Q. You agree that most people had rather not have their
houses shot into?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Do you think most people like to have their houses
shot into ? A. I don’t think nobody wants their house shot
into.
Q. Supposing you sent your children to a white school,
do you have any way of knowing your house wasn’t going
to be shot into? A. I won’t have any way of knowing if
they won’t going to the white schools whether they would be
shot into.
Deposition of Charlie White
1193a
Q. Let me ask you this: you selected Cedar Street School
for the younger child. What other school did you consider!
A. What? My last child?
—13—
Q. The youngest grandchild. A. I signed it Cedar Street
when the form came out.
Q. I asked you what other school did you think of sending
the child to? A. I haven’t thought of any.
Q. You haven’t thought of any. Did you want the child
to have the best education possible? A. Yes, sure.
Q. Did you look into the question? A. I thought all the
schools were running—if the school won’t capable of being-
run, it ought not, but when they put them on the form it is
all right.
Q. If you think a school is not capable of being run—
A. It ought not to be on the form.
Q. I will have to agree with you about that. Let me ask
you, Mr. White, did you know that—did you know that
some schools were accredited by the State of North Caro
lina and others were not? A. Yes, I know that, yes.
Q. Do you know whether or not Cedar Street School is
accredited? A. I haven’t heard at all.
Q. Do you know whether Louisburg is accredited? A.
I haven’t looked into this. I know that the government
—14—
sends down some inspectors, but I don’t know about what
grade it’s made.
Deposition of Charlie White
1194a
Deposition of Frank W. Rogers
— 107—
* * # * #
C ross E xa m in a tion by M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Mr. Rogers, you live just a very short distance from
Gethsemane School, don’t you! A. Yes.
Q. Is that one of the principle reasons for you choosing
—108—
it? A. It was.
Q. Is it true that you believe that it would he more
economical, more desirable to send children to the nearest
school? A. I do.
Q. Would this be the best system of assigning students
in this County, do you think? A. Well, I think so.
Q, Let me ask you whether—do you have any personal
knowledge of the Bunn School? A. No, I don’t.
Q. Have you heard as to whether or not the Bunn School
had better facilities and equipment, and so on, than Geth
semane ?
Mr. Davis: Object to the form.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Have you heard any talk about that? A. Well, I
have heard that. I have heard that.
Q. Now, I ’d like to show you, for example, the Exhibit
E to the defendants’ answers to interrogatories in this
case, and that shows the different courses that are given at
some of the schools in the County, and not others. And I ’d
like to ask you at what schools geography is given! Can
you just read that, please? A. Bunn, Edward Best.
1195a
Deposition of Frank W. Rogers
—109—
Q. And what about advanced algebra and trigonometry!
A. That is Bunn and Louisburg.
Q. And what about agriculture ? A. Bunn, Edward Best,
Gold Sand, Riverside, Youngsville and Epsom..
Q. What about consumer math! A. Bunn and Perry’s.
Q. What about shorthand? A. Bunn, Epsom, Louis
burg, Edward Best, and Riverside.
Q. And what about Spanish If A. Bunn, Epsom, Gold
Sand.
Q. And Spanish II? A. Bunn and Epsom.
Q. And physical education and health? A. Bunn,
Perry’s, Youngsville and Louisburg.
Q. And chemistry? A. Bunn, Epsom, Riverside, and
Edward Best High.
Q. Those courses are given at Bunn, but not at Geth-
semane, in the courses you read off?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Is that right? A. Yes.
Q. Now, on the other hand, let’s take general math.
Does that have Bunn in there? A. Edward Best High,
—110—
Epsom, Gethsemane, Riverside and Youngsville and Gold
Sand.
Q. And what about construction industry? A. Gethse
mane, Bunn, Riverside.
Q. Is it Gethsemane, Bunn or Gethsemane, Perry’s? A.
Gethsemane, Perry’s, Riverside.
Q. All right, now, it seems there are a number of courses
1196a
that are given at Bunn and not at Gethsemane, isn’t that
right? A. Yes, sir, I guess.
Q. And some other courses given at Gethsemane and not
Bunn—at least two—is that right? A. Yes, it is.
Q. Would you have any objection to the high schools of
the two being consolidated so that all the high school chil
dren could choose all of those courses? A. No, I wouldn’t
have.
Q. Do you think that would be an improvement?
Mr. Yarborough: Objection to the form.
A. I have no objection to the consolidation.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Do you think it would be an improvement for the op
portunities, say, for the children of Gethsemane to be able
to take all of those courses that are given at Bunn and not
at Gethsemane? A. Yes, sir, I do.
—Ill—
Q. Do you think it would be an improvement for the op-
ment? A. I think it would be an improvement.
Q. And do you think it is a serious disadvantage that
the children at Gethsemane can’t take those courses?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. It could be a disadvantage.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Now, Mr. Rogers, let me ask you this: you testified
on direct examination that you heard about these incidents
Deposition of Frank W. Rogers
1197a
involving Mrs. Satterwhite and some of these shootings, is
that right? A. Yes, I heard about it.
Q. Now, are those incidents fairly well known in the
Negro community, you think, around where you live, about
Mrs. Satterwhite, for example? Do a lot of the Negroes
know about that in your opinion?
Mr. Yarborough: If he knows, in his opinion.
A. Well, I really don’t know now.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Well, you knew about it? A. Yes, I heard about it.
Q. And you have heard other Negroes talk about it?
A. Yes, I have heard other Negroes talk about it.
Q. And do you think that would encourage or discourage
them from sending their children to the white schools?
— 112—
A. Well, I would say it would discourage them.
Q. And would the incidents, that shooting into the houses,
would that encourage them or discourage them? A. Well,
that wouldn’t encourage. It wouldn’t encourage them at
all.
Q. It wouldn’t encourage them, would it? A. No, it
wouldn’t encourage them.
Q. Now, Mr. Rogers, before the freedom of choice started,
when the federal money became involved, were the schools
in this County segregated or integrated until two years
ago ? A. Segregated.
Q. And you know, don’t you, that the School Board, and
many School Boards in many different parts of the country,
were required to desegregate in order to keep federal
money?
Deposition of Frank W. Rogers
1198a
D ep o s itio n o f F ra n k W . R o g er s
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. Yes, I knew that.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Now, are the elected officials in Franklin County white
or colored! A. White, I think.
Q. They are all white, aren’t they! A. I think they are.
—113—
Q. And most of the voters, the majority of the voters in
this County are white, aren’t they! A. I know a great
number of them are. I don’t know exactly the number.
Q. Before the federal money became involved, the County
operated segregated schools, didn’t they! A. Yes. I—
Q. So would you believe from that that most of the
white people preferred integration or preferred segrega
tion?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form. Let him
finish.
Mr. Schwelb: Let him answer the question that I
asked.
A. I don’t know. I think they are for integration.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. The white people— A. I think they are for segrega
tion. I think. But I don’t know.
Q. That is your belief? A. That is my belief.
Q. And you are a Negro? A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Yarborough asked you on direct examina
tion whether the place where you work is integrated. Now,
I’d like to ask you this: do more Negro people work for
1199a
Deposition of Frank W. Rogers
—114—
white people or do more white people work for Negro
people? A. No. Negro people work for white people.
Q. Do any white people work for Negroes that you know
about? A. Not as I know of.
Q. Do a lot of Negroes live on land that belongs to white
people? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And are Negroes in many cases economically depend
ent on white people? A. You mean depending on—
Q. Depending on white people for their livelihood. A.
Yes, I think so.
Q. And they know that before the federal government
got involved in this matter that the schools here were
segregated, don’t they?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Everybody knows that, don’t they? A. That’s right.
Mr. Schwelb: I have no further questions.
C ross E xa m in a tion b y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Mr. Rogers, you reviewed with Mr. Schwelb, or stated
that in your opinion most of the wdiite people prefer segre
gation to integration of the schools, is that correct? A.
—115—
Wait a minute now. Now what did you say? I want to
understand what you said. Get it clear.
Q. Yes. Well, I will repeat the question. You stated in
the answer to Mr. Schwelb that in your opinion, in view of
what—the practices of the Board, that most of the white
1200a
people preferred segregation of the schools to integration
of the schools. A. I think they prefer segregated schools.
Q. Now, yon also stated that you had heard discussed
the incidents regarding Mrs. Satterwhite and other Negroes
that tried to get into the integrated schools. A. Yes, I
have heard.
Q. Among the Negroes. A. Yes, I have heard it.
Q. And you also said that you thought that would tend
to discourage, rather than encourage, the Negroes to go to
white schools? A. Yes.
Q. Now, do you get around the community very much,
Mr. Rogers? A. Not too much.
Q. Do you get around the Bunn Community very much?
A. Bunn? Well, I run the store there in the community.
— 116—
Q. Do you see many Negroes coming to Bunn to your
store? A. Yes.
Q. And have you heard them talk about the schools, in
tegration of the schools? A. Well, I have heard a few.
Q. In fact, isn’t it true, Mr. Rogers, you have—from time
to time you have discussed integration and segregation of
the schools, or anything else— A. Yes.
Q. That was discussed, and you have discussed the op
position of whites to integration or desegregation? A.
Opposition? What do you mean?
Q. Whether they were for it or against it? A. Yeah.
Q. And you are familiar with the sit-ins and demonstra
tions that have occurred? A. Yes.
Q. And you know about the opposition that many of
the whites have expressed to it? A. Yes.
Q. In New York and in Franklin County? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And in view of this, Mr. Rogers, do you feel that
Deposition of Frank W. Rogers
1201a
Deposition of Frank W. Rogers
—117—
this freedom of choice plan will desegregate the schools in
Franklin County? A. I don’t know.
Q. Do you know the number of Negro students who have
transferred for next school year to previously all white
schools? A. No, I don’t know.
Q. You haven’t had a lot of Negroes going to all white
schools, have you? A. No, haven’t had a lot.
Q. And you haven’t had a lot of whites going to the
Negro schools, have you? A. No.
Q. Did you attend any of the P T A meetings at Gethse-
mane School? A. No, I didn’t. I work every night.
Q. I see. Was it ever explained to you that they were
going to mix up the teachers in the various schools? A.
Well, you know, I just heard that. Just talking, you know.
But nobody ever explained it to me.
Q. Who is the principal at Gethsemane? A. B. M. Dar
den.
Q. Do you have a white teacher up there? A. No, sir.
—118—
Q. Mr. Bogers, has Gethsemane ever played Bunn in any
kind of activity. A. Not as I know of.
Q. Do you know of any meeting they ever had between
Gethsemane and Bunn—the students? A. Not as I know
of, no. Not as I know of.
Q. Isn’t it true, Mr. Bogers, that the Negroes in your
community have looked at Gethsemane as a Negro school
and at Bunn as a white schol? A. Yes, they have in the
past.
Q. And don’t they look at it that way now? You got only
white students at Bunn and Negro students at Gethsemane
—with a few Negro students at Bunn? Isn’t that correct?
A. That’s correct.
1202a
Q. And you’ve got a Negro faculty at Gethsemane! A.
Yes.
Q. And you got a white faculty at Bunn? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So in exercising a choice the Negroes would he pick
ing a Negro school or picking a white school, in choosing
between Bunn and Gethsemane? A. I guess so. I don’t
know.
• # # # #
Deposition of Joyce Terrell
—179—
# # * * *
C ross-E xa m in a tion by M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Mrs. Terrell, when you made your choice of Cedar
Street School, did you make any attempt to find out in what
way Cedar Street might be better, in what ways Louisburg
might be a better school? A. No, because I feel like Cedar
Street is all right.
Q. You didn’t try to find out if Louisburg is even better
—180—
than Cedar Street? A. I don’t think it is no better. I
think it is nice for the children at Cedar Street.
Q. You undersand that I am—you didn’t make any in
vestigation ; you just wanted to stay right where you were
before? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I think you mentioned that you know Mrs. Irene
Arrington? A. Yes, I know her.
Q. And you know her home was shot into, don’t you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you know of Reverend Sidney Dunston? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And do you know that he had difficulties in connec
tion with school desegregation, don’t you? A. Well, I
heard about it.
1203a
Q. You know that he had nails put in his driveway! A.
No, I didn’t hear that part.
Q. What difficulties did you hear about? A. Well, I just
heard that his house was—had been interfered with.
Q. Did you hear that oil was put in his well! A. Yes,
sir.
—181—
Q. And Mr. J. C. Fogg, you know about what happened
about shooting into his home? A. Well, I heard some
thing about it.
Q. And you heard about Mr. James Cheek having oil put
in his well, didn’t you? A. Yes, I heard about it.
Q. You heard about Reverend Luther Coppedge having
threats and phone calls and other harassment, haven’t you?
A. (Witness nods).
—189—
# • # * *
R ecross -E xa m in a tion by M r. C h a m b ers:
Q. You say there are four rooms, a corridor, and a small
kitchen and mobile unit at Cedar Street School? A. Four
rooms and what?
Q. A corridor, a hall. A. Four rooms. Four large
rooms, the hall, restrooms, two closets and the outside
kitchen and the mobile unit.
Q. Now what is the outside kitchen? Is that another
mobile— A. It is not off from the building, but you go
in on the outside.
Q. Do students eat in there? A. They come to the win
dow and get their plates and pass back to the room.
Q. So they cook in this outside kitchen during the day?
A. That is where I prepare the food.
Q. Do you prepare the food? A. Well, I serve the plates
out there, but we cook over here at Riverside.
Deposition of Joyce Terrell
1204a
Q. Cook at Riverside? A. That’s right.
— 190—
Q. And transport the food over to Cedar Street? A.
That’s right.
Q. And pass it out the window to the children? A. Each
one. That’s right. Each one come up. And pass out the
plates.
Q. Are they standing outside? A. No, they don’t come
up to the building when—they come to the end of it. A
little window. And that is where we place the plates, on
there, on this little bar like under the window, and that is
where they pick up their plates.
Q. Where do they go after that? A. Back to the rooms.
Q. Go back to the rooms where they are taught? A.
All but the small children go right across the hall, into the
library.
Q. You’ve got four rooms at Cedar Street School, which
you describe as four large rooms? A. That’s right.
Q. Now, do they teach classes in each of those rooms?
A. All but the library.
Q. Now, where is the library? A. It is in the front
room as you go in the hall.
Q. That is one of those four rooms? A. That’s right.
— 191—
Q. Does the library take up the whole room? A. They
use the whole room as a library room.
Q. Do they use it for anything else? A. The children
have lunch at twelve, and that’s all.
Q. Does the library and lunchroom—do all the children
go in the library and eat? A. No, just the first grade.
They have their lunch in there.
Q. The first grade goes in there. Now, where does the
second grade go to eat? A. Back to their room.
Deposition of Joyce Terrell
1205a
Q. Which room is that? A. It’s the second room on the
left, going down the hall.
Q. Where does the third grade go? A. They are in the
same room.
Q. With the second grade. What about the fourth grade ?
A. May I—may I get this straightened out.
Mr. Yarborough: Go ahead.
A. The second and first grade is in the mobile unit. The
third and fourth is together.
B y M r. C h am bers:
Q. Third and fourth together? A. That’s right.
Q. The first grade goes into the library? A. The first
and second.
—192—
Q. The first and second. And the third and fourth go into
one room? A. That’s right.
Q. And the fourth and fifth, into one room? A. Fifth
and sixth.
Q. Go into one room to each lnuch? A. Yes.
Q. Do all of them eat at the same time? A. Yes, sir, all
of them.
Q. And after the first and second grades finish their
meals, and go back to the mobile unit— A. Yes, and they
take the dishes up, and they bring them, back up to the
table in the hall, and they set the dishes up, and they go
back.
Q. Now, do you know whether there is a cafeteria at
Louisburg High School? A. I don’t know anything about
Louisburg High School. I haven’t been in there.
Deposition of Joyce Terrell
1206a
Q. Would you like for your children to have a library—
I mean a lunchroom? A. Well, we are doing fine as we
have right now.
Q. Would you like for them to have a lunchroom? A. I
would like for them to have one, but as of now they are do
ing fine.
—193—
Q. Would you like for them to have a larger playground
area? A. We have a playground large enough for the
children.
Q. Would you like for them to have more library facil
ities? A. We have a library, I think, enough for right
now. I mean as we are going.
Q. Do you know how many library books you have? A.
No.
Q. Do you know whether you have an adequate library?
A. I don’t know anything about what is going on inside
the library.
Q. And you don’t know why your school was not ac
credited, do you?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
Mr. Chambers: I will rephrase it.
B y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Do you know why your school was not accredited?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
Mr. Chambers (To witness): You can answer.
A. Well, I think—I don’t know why the school was not ac
credited, because I think it is all right for the children.
Q. You don’t know why it wasn’t accredited?
Deposition of Joyce Terrell
1207a
D ep o s itio n o f J o y ce T erre ll
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
—194—
Mr. Chambers (To witness): You can answer if
you know.
A. No.
B y M r. C h a m b ers:
Q. You’d like the best possible education for your chil
dren, wouldn’t you! A. Well, yes.
Q. Are you opposed to integration of the schools? A.
Say what?
Q. Are you opposed to integration of the schools in
Franklin County? A. Is that what you mean on the—
Q. Ma’am? A. Tell me what you mean on this opposed
to integration.
Q. Are you opposed to your students attending school
with white students? A. Does you mean that I don’t want
them to attend?
Q. Yes. A. Well, no. I mean it’s not that I don’t want
them to attend.
Q. Are you opposed to them attending school with white
students? A. No.
Q. Are you opposed to white students attending school
with your children? A. No.
— 195—
Q. Are you opposed to your children being taught by
white teachers? A. No.
Q. Are you opposed to desegregation of teachers in
Franklin County? A. (No answer).
Q. Did you understand? A. Desegregation. What is
that?
Mr. Chambers: I withdraw that question.
1208a
D ep o s itio n o f W illie P e r r y
B y M r. C h a m b ers:
Q. Do you think it is the School Board’s responsibility
to provide the children with the best possible education?
A. Well, I think they are providing all right out there with
them.
Q. Do you think the School Board ought to do whatever
it can to provide the best education for the children? A.
Yes.
Q. And if this required-reorganization of the school sys
tem was required, the School Board ought to take those
steps to provide the best education for the children—is that
correct? A. Yes. We have the best education for the chil
dren.
* * * * *
— 200—
C ross E xa m in a tion by M r. C h a m b ers:
* * * * *
— 211—
Q. The neighbors around you have chosen Cedar Street?
A. No. Some of my neighbors have chosen Louisburg
School.
Q. Who is that? A. That is Mr. James Davis.
Q. Who else chose there? A. Mr. J. C. Fogg.
Q. And who else? A. In my community I know those.
Q. Those are the only ones you know? A. Yes. They
are in my community.
Q. And your other neighbors chose Cedar Street or
Riverside, in you community? A. As far as I know now.
Q. And those who chose those Negro schools haven’t had
any problems, have they? A. No.
1209a
Q. Now, you say Mr. James Davis chose Louisburg
School? A. Yes. I think I got his name right. I think it
is James.
Q. You also said that Mr. Fogg— A. Yes. Mr. Fogg
chose Louisburg.
— 212—
Q. Didn’t Mr. Fogg have some problems! A. Yes, sir.
Someone shot into his home.
Q. And he was the only one down there, besides Mr.
Davis, who had a child in a white school, wasn’t he? A.
No. One of the members from my church had a son grad
uate from Louisburg High School last year.
Q. Did he stay in your community? A. No, not in my
community. In the Rocky Ford community. That was Mr.
James Cheek and son Jerome.
Q. And son Jerome? A. That’s right.
Q. And when Mr. Fogg had his child over there in the
white school, he stayed in your neighborhood? A. Yes, he
is in my neigborhood.
Q. And he had shooting in his home? A. That’s right.
Q. And Mr. James Davis had his child in a white school
for a while? A. Last year, school term or part of last
year and the year before last, but he has two in there for
this year. One graduates. One graduates.
Q. Do you know why the child was taken out the first
time? A. No, I do not.
Q. You don’t know anything about a bus problem that
—213—
Mr. Davis had? A. No, I do not. I know he withdrew, but
why I didn’t know.
Q. She didn’t go the full year? A. No, she didn’t.
Q. And he wanted his child to go to the white school? A.
Deposition of Willie Perry
1 2 1 0 a
Yes, I guess he did. If he sent her there, he must have
wanted her to go there.
Q. And you say you know Mr. James Cheek? A. Yes,
that’s right.
Q. And do you know about any problems that he had?
A. That I don’t know for myself for, really, what I heard
was from someone else.
Q. You heard that Mr. Cheek had problems? A. Yes, I
did hear he had problems.
Q. And he had his child in a white school? A. Yes.
Q. What problems did he have? A. Someone put kero
sene in his well.
Q. And anything else? A. And, also, he had a horse to
get killed.
Q. And something else? A. I believe that is all.
Q. Do you know anything about problems his child had
---214:---
at Louisburg School? A. No.
* # # # »
Deposition of Willie Perry
—217—
• • # • #
C ross-E xa m in a tion b y M r. S ch w elb :
* # # # #
Q. Would you think very carefully and consider this,
- 2 1 8 -
Miss Perry: you mentioned three Negro families that lived
somewhere around you. One of them lived some distance
from you. The Fogg’s, the Cheek’s, and the Davis’s. All
of them had trouble of some kind, didn’t they? A. I don’t
know about Mr. Davis.
Q. You don’t know about Mr. Davis? A. I ain’t heard
no trouble with Mr. Davis.
1211a
Q. Do yon know Mr. Cheek had some trouble! A. Yes,
he had some trouble.
Q. Had kerosene put in his well twice, didn’t he? A. I
don’t know about twice, but he had it once.
Q. And Mr. Fogg had trouble? A. Yes.
Q. And you know of Reverend Dunston, that he had
some trouble? A. Yes. Put kerosene in his well.
Q. That’s right. And didn’t they put nails in his drive
way? A. No. Don’t know about the nails.
Q. You have to understand that; you have to consider
seriously that some of these people had trouble. A. Yes,
they have had trouble. I didn’t say what the trouble wTas
about.
Q. They are the same ones that sent their children to the
— 219-
white schools, isn’t that true? A. Someone shot into my
mother’s home and none of her children were going to a
white school.
Q. What is your mother’s name? A. Mrs. Katie J.
Perry.
Q. As a matter of fact, that happened right during the
freedom of choice period, didn’t it? Right after the Court
order last year? A. It was in August.
Q. As a matter of fact, that was mentioned in the Frank
lin County newspaper, wasn’t it? A. Yes, it was.
Q. And it mentioned in the Franklin County newspaper
that people were worried about it, whether this wouldn’t
influence the Court in this school case, weren’t they? Do
you remember that? A. No.
Mr. Schwelb : Now, off the record.
(Discussion off record)
Deposition of Willie Perry
1 2 1 2 a
D ep o s itio n o f W illie P e r r y
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. This shooting—it happened in the first part of Au
gust, didn’t it! A. To my remembrance it was the third
day of August. I am not sure, but I think that was the day.
Q. Now, Miss Perry, I ’d like to show you a copy of an
article in the August 9, 1966, newspaper, Franklin Times
— 220-
newspaper, entitled, “ Shooting of Negro Home Reported,”
which is previously in evidence in this case, and I ’d like you
to read out loud, please, for us this paragraph.
Mr. Yarborough: We think she ought to read it
all.
Mr. Schwelb: It is in evidence.
Mr. Yarborough: We object to her reading any
unless she reads it all.
Mr. Schwelb: (To witness) You can go ahead and
read it, subject to the objection.
A. “School offices were silent on the report, but it was
learned that they are concerned in view of a ruling by
Judge Algernon Butler ten days ago that Negro children
and their parents be given a second choice period of inte
grating. The U. S. Justice Department attorney for the
eight Negro plaintiffs had claimed that massive community
hostility had prevented Negroes from exercising a freedom
of choice of schools last April.”
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Now, do you know if the freedom of choice last sum
mer was going on about that time! A. They had made
a choice. They made a choice in April of last year.
1213a
Q. Do you recall the Court ordered the Negro students
— 221—
to make a second choice? Wasn’t that in August! If you
remember, Miss Perry. A. I don’t know whether it was
in August or July. I really don’t know.
Q. If the records show that Judge Butler ordered the
choice to be made in August, then it would have been in
August! A. Then it would have to be in August. Then,
I wouldn’t know for sure, unless I went back and got a pa
per and looked at it.
Q. Miss Perry, I want you to think very carefully about
this because it is very important. These incidents hap
pening to Mr. Dunston and Mr. Cheek, and even this shoot
ing here at the time of the freedom of choice period, do you
think that this kind of thing encourages Negroes to send
their children to white schools! A. No, it wouldn’t en
courage nothing, but still I say they won’t afraid.
Q. If you weren’t sure whether somebody shot into peo
ple’s homes because they went to white schools or not, but
you thought that might have been for that reason, wouldn’t
that be something you would have to consider!
Mr. Yarborough: Objection to the form.
— 222—
A. No, because shooting into my mother’s home—her and
I was the only one at home.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Into her home! A. Yes.
Q. And it was a Negro home! A. Yes.
Q. And it was during the freedom of choice period! A.
Yes, it was during that period, but I couldn’t say that was
shot into there for that reason.
Deposition of Willie Perry
1214a
Deposition of Dasell Walters
—250—
* # # * #
C ross E xa m in a tion b y M r. S ch w elb :
# # # # # '
—253—
# # # * #
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Would you care to answer the question as to whether
it is possible that there may have been incidents that
you may not have heard of? A. I just don’t know.
—254—
Q. Now, if there had been other such incidents and other
Neogres had heard about this, that might discourage other
Negroes, wouldn’t it? A. I don’t know that either.
Q. Would you know whether somebody would be dis
couraged by his house being shot into or not? A. If it
happened, I am sure it would be discouraging.
Q. You are absolutely sure, aren’t you? A. I don’t
know. If my—
Q. You are sure it would discourage them. In fact, you
are positive, absolutely positive, aren’t you? A. Yes. If it
happened like that, I am positive.
Q. All right. Now, let me ask you this question: did you
know that there were about eight or nine courses given at
Bunn High School that are not given at Gethsemane High
School? A. No.
Q. Did you read the form that—the freedom of choice
forms that people circulated? A. Yes, I read some of it.
Q. You didn’t read all of it? A. No, I was so sleepy.
Q. Let’s assume, for a minute, that there are quite a
number of courses given at Bunn and not at Gethsemane,
and, of course, you know some courses are given at Best
and not at Bunn? A. No, I didn’t know that.
1215a
Deposition of Dasell Walters
—255—
Q. If the school—high schools were consolidated and
there were just one high school, then all the children
would have the opportunity of taking all of those courses,
wouldn’t they? A. Yes.
Q. And that would improve their educational opportuni
ties, wouldn’t it? A. Yes, I am sure it would.
Q. Do you think the educational opportunities should he
improved? A. Yes. Can’t they get those subjects over to
Gethsemane School.
Q. All I can ask you is whether or not they’ve got them
so far. If the record shows they haven’t been able to get
them so far—well, I withdraw that. Suppose there is only
one Spanish teacher to teach Spanish at Bunn and Gethse-
mane, between them. If the high schools were consoli
dated, couldn’t all of the students have that one Spanish
teacher? A. I guess so if the Board assigned them there.
Q. You wouldn’t have any objection to having any con
solidation like that, would you? A. No, if the Board as
signed them there.
Q. You want to do whatever the Board does? A. Yes.
—256—
Q. They are the ones that know best? A. I feel like
they do.
Q. Now, let me ask you one other question. There were
two questions that Mr. Chambers asked you that you didn’t
want to answer. Can you tell us why you didn’t want to
answer? A. What was it?
Q. One of them was whether the Board should assign
teachers according to race or not. You said you didn’t
want to answer that. Why didn’t you want to answer that?
A. Because I feel like that is for the teachers to answer.
1216a
Q. It is for the teachers to answer as to how you feel?
A. Yes.
Q. And that is the only reason you don’t want to answer
the question? A. Yes.
# * # * #
Deposition of Sadie Suitt
— 8—
* # * # *
C ross E xa m in a tion b y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Mrs. Suitt, with respect to—you have testified that
you would be prepared to accept assignment to teach at any
school you were wanted to? A. Yes.
Q. Now, nobody has ever asked yon to teach at any
other school, have they? A. No.
Q. They haven’t encouraged you to switch, have they?
A. No.
Q. Now, you consider yourself able to teach at any school
in the system, don’t you? A. I believe so.
—9—
Q. You have been teaching here how long? A. More
than twenty-five years. I don’t know exactly. It’s been more
than twenty-five years though.
Q. Now, Mrs. Suitt, with respect to your conversation
with Mrs. Coppedge, I think you did mention to her, didn’t
you, that the teachers would be given a choice—were going
to be given a choice? A. Say what?
Q. Did you communicate, that is, to Mrs. Coppedge, that
the teachers were going to be given a choice later on in the
year? A. No, I didn’t mention it.
Q. When did yon first see me? A. When did I—
Q. When did you first meet me? A. Yesterday.
Q. Where was that? A. At my house.
1217a
Q. Do you remember us discussing this case together?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember me asking you pretty much the
questions I am asking you today? A. Yes.
Q. Didn’t we have a discussion as to whether or not you
told Mrs. Coppedge—you told Mrs. Coppedge what hap-
— 10—
pened at that meeting? A. I think I did.
Q. Did I misunderstand that, when you told me, that you
did tell her that, but you didn’t want to be involved?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. What I was talking to her about was the boy and the
books, and I told her I didn’t want to be involved in it and
I would tell her when I saw her, that I would ask her, but
I would tell her what she said when I saw her, but when I
saw Mrs. Davis it never crossed my mind and I never asked
her.
(Mr. Chambers enters the room for the first
time on this date)
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Anyway, you did tell her that you didn’t want to be
come involved? A. That’s right.
Q. And that was partly because of your job? A. That’s
right.
Q. Now—and did I mention to you yesterday, Mrs. Suitt,
that Mrs. Coppedge had tried not to reveal your name?
A. Yes, you did mention that.
Q. Had anybody mentioned that to you before? A. No.
Q. You now don’t think she told any lies about you, do
Deposition of Sadie M. Suitt
1218a
Deposition of Sadie M. Suitt
— 11—
Mr. Yarborough.: Object to the form.
A. I don’t know. I don’t know all that she said.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. But the part about your not wanting to be involved
was true, wasn’t it? A. That’s right.
Q. And that is partly because of your job—wasn’t it?
A. Partly. And I just didn’t want to be involved in no way.
Q. Mr. Yarborough raised with you, ma’am, some ques
tions about some of these incidents that have happened
not too far from your home. A. Yes.
Q. For instance, how far does Mr. Dunston live from you?
A. Well, not half a mile, hardly.
Q. And you know about some of the incidents at his
house? A. I have heard.
Q. Did you hear that he had kerosene put in his well?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you hear that he had tacks put in his drive
way? A. No, I didn’t hear that.
Q. Did you hear he had trouble with the foster child
staying in his home? A. I hear they took him. That’s all.
— 12—
Q. And you have heard about Mr. Fogg’s house being
shot into? A. I heard.
Q. And he lives very near to you? A. Not too far.
Q. And you heard about Mr. James Cheek having kero
sene put in his well? A. Yes.
Q. Did you know it was put in there twice? A. No.
Q. And have you heard about Reverend Coppedge and
Mrs. Coppedge having trouble at their home? A. Yes.
Q. About the telephone calls? A. Yes.
1219a
Q. Crosses being burned? A. Not recently.
Q. Except for the conversation with Mr. Coppedge, which
you have described, have you talked to her recently? A.
No, I haven’t seen her since that day.
Q. Did you know that Mrs. Arrington had shots fired
into her home? A. Now I heard that.
Q. We discussed that yesterday at your house, didn’t
—13—
we? A. Yes.
Q. And I think you mentioned to me yesterday at your
house that caused a lot of fear in the people? A. Yes.
Q. And you still think that? A. No, I think the fear is
down some now.
Q. I am asking you if you thought it caused a lot of
fear in people at that time? A. Oh, yes, at that time.
Q. You mentioned a few—there had been a few incidents?
A. Yes.
Q. We discussed that last night? A. Yes.
Q. And then we discussed about the incidents in Frank-
linton? A. Yes.
Q. And in the very last few months about the incidents
in Franklinton? A. Yes.
Q. And you read about those in the Franklin Times,
didn’t you? A. Yes.
Q. So they haven’t all bogged down completely, have
they?
—14—
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form of that ques
tion.
A. I haven’t kept up with it recently.
Deposition of Sadie M. Suitt
1220a
D ep o s itio n o f S ad ie M . S u itt
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. I think you mentioned to me last night, didn’t you,
that that would discourage some people from attending the
white schools—that incident? A. It had discouraged them,
but now I think the people feel more free.
Q. Do you recall that there is a very large number of
Negroes going to predominantly white schools now! A. I
don’t recall, because I think the most—I don’t know about
other schools, but in our school most children have chosen
Perry’s. I don’t know about the other schools.
Q. It’s still a very low number that have crossed racial
lines, out of the whole group!
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form of that
question.
A. Yes.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Now, you mentioned that you preferred to teach at
Perry’s, but you would be willing to teach anywhere else.
A. Yes, I did.
— 15—
Q. Now, almost any teacher would prefer to stay where
he is used to, wouldn’t he?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Teachers would prefer to teach where they are used
to. Do you think that is true? A. Yes, they would.
Q. Originally, the faculties in this school system were
totally segregated until about a year ago? A. When?
1221a
Q. What I mean by that—all Negro teachers taught in
Negro schools and white teachers at white schools ? A. Yes.
Q. They were assigned that way by the Board, weren’t
they! A. I guess so. That’s the way it’s been all along.
Q. That’s right. So the fact that you are now teaching
at Perry’s rather than, say, at Gold Sand, is a responsi
bility of the School Board, isn’t it? They never did assign
you to Gold Sand! A. No, because we didn’t choose to go.
Q. Well, you didn’t have any opposition to going, did
you! A. No. We didn’t choose to go.
Q. Now, just to be perfectly clear, did I intimidate you
in any way when I came to your home! A. No.
— 16—
Q. Did I try to get you to tell me lies! A. No.
Q. Did you think I was fair with you? A. Yes.
Mr. Chambers: I have no questions.
# # * # #
Deposition of Joyce Griffin
— 26—
* * # * *
C ross-E xa m in a tion by M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Mrs. Griffin, going back to Alice Clanton a little bit.
You mentioned that she was conscientious in her work?
A. Yes.
Q. And she also had a good attitude altogether? A.
Yes. Very true.
Q. Would you say that she was a truthful girl? A. Yes.
Q. And you would believe anything that she told you?
A. Yes.
Q. With respect to Harold Coppedge, he is not as good
a student as Alice, I take it? A. No.
Q. Let me ask you this: would you say that Harold is
1222a
very conscious of the racial question? If you know. Is he
sensitive to that type of thing! A. I wouldn’t think so, no.
He doesn’t seem to be the type of person.
Q. You knew, didn’t you, that he had a death in his family
during the school year, or didn’t you know that? A. Seems
like I have a vague recollection of that.
—27—
Q. And you knew, didn’t you, and at least you had heard
that they had had trouble at home in harrassing phone
calls and explosions, didn’t you? A. I didn’t know nutil—
just hearsay.
Q. Of course, is it well known, do you think, or did you
know that Harold Coppedge’s father was a named plaintiff
in this lawsuit,'? Did you know that—that he brought the
suit to desegregate the schools? A. Only from what I had
heard.
Q. You had heard it. A. Yes. Just heard it.
Q. Now, let me ask you, Mrs. Griffin, did you know that
Alice had chosen to return to Perry’s next year? A. Yes.
Q. Let me ask you, Mrs. Griffin, whether anybody has
encouraged you to switch schools? A. No.
Q. Have you been told that you have a right to apply to
any school you wanted to? A. Yes.
Q. Have you been encouraged one way or another? A.
No.
Q. Now, are you a college graduate? A. Yes.
—28—
Q. Where did you got to college? A. East Carolina Col
lege, Greenville.
Q. Were there any Negroes there when you went there?
A. I am not sure. I didn’t have any classes with any.
Deposition of Joyce Griffin
1223a
Q. You wouldn’t object if Negroes went to school with
you, would you? A. No,
Q. You wouldn’t object to teaching Negroes, would you?
A. No.
Q. If you were assigned to teach at a predominantly
Negro school, you wouldn’t resign, would you? A. Well,
I feel the teachers have a right to pick their own school for
a number of reasons.
Q. Apart from what you think the teacher has a right
to do, if you were asked to do it, and were assigned to
another school, you would teach there, wouldn’t you? A.
If I had to teach there.
Q. You prefer to teach where you are teaching? A. I
prefer to have my own choice.
Q. If the School Board were to assign you, you would
accept the assignment? A. Well, I am basically a teacher.
Q. You’d have no objection to a larger number of Negroes
going to Edward Best, would you? A. No.
—29—
Q. Do you think that might be helpful to the race rela
tions—to have more Negro people meet more white people
on a more continuous basis? A. Well,—
Q. What is your opinion about that? A. Well, if they
have a good attitude and go into the schools to learn and
the white students go into the schools to learn, I think that
is the main objective, and then the personal problems are
secondary.
Q. Do you think communication is an important way in
which race relations can be improved, communications be
tween people of different races, or do you think segrega
tion of races is the best way that good relations can be
secured? A. Well, integration, if there is an understand
Deposition of Joyce Griffin
1224a
ing, I mean, between the people. Of course, that is the
main thing.
Q. Yon do your best to have an understanding, don’t
yon? A. Yes.
Q. Let me ask yon this: supposing that a couple of the
high schools were consolidated into one high school and the
Negro teachers came over, and the Negro teachers and the
white teachers taught both the Negro students and the
—3 0 -
white students, would you object to that? A. No, I don’t
think so.
Q. It wouldn’t bother you one bit, would it? A. I don’t
believe so.
C ross-E xa m in a tion b y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Mrs. Griffin, how many students flunked your English
class? A. Which particular one?
Q. Well, the one in which Harold Coppedge is. A. Eight.
Q. Eight? A. Yes.
Q. Is that an average? A. For my class?
Q. Yes, for your class. A. Well, it depends on the
different classes. Now, in some, maybe I don’t have but
maybe one or two, and others I have more.
Q. Are you a native of North Carolina? A. Yes.
Q. What part of North Carolina were you born in? A.
Franklin County.
Q. Franklin County. Which school did you attend here?
A. Well, it was Mills High School. Now, it is Louisburg
High School.
—31—
Q. Have you been in Perry’s High School? A. No.
Q. Have you been in any of the Negro high schools? A.
No.
Deposition of Joyce Griffin
1225a
Q. Have you attended any program at any of the Negro
high schools? A. No. I had no occasion.
Q. Was your contact with Alice Clanton and Harold
Coppedge the only contacts you have had in a professional
capacity with Negroes? A. Yes.
Q. Now, why do you think more Negro students are not
at Edward Best? A. They didn’t choose to go, since they
had a freedom of choice.
Q. Why do you think they didn’t choose to go? A. I
have no idea.
Q. Why didn’t you choose to go to Perry’s to teach? A.
This year, you mean?
Q. Yes. A. Well, I had worked with the faculty at
Edward Best last year and I don’t think they can be topped
anywhere in the County—if I may use slang.
Q. Do you view Perry’s as a Negro school? A. I didn’t
understand you.
—32—
Q. Do you view Perry’s as a Negro school? A. Well,
it is predominantly Negro.
Q. You look at it that way, as a Negro School? A. I
suppose.
Q. And you view Edward Best as a white school? A.
Not any more.
Q. Is it predominantly white. A. Yes, it is predomi
nantly white.
Q. In your opinion don’t the students also view Perry’s
as a Negro school and Edward Best as a white school?
A. I am sure they do.
Q. There is really no communication of activities between
the two schools, is there? A. Not as far as students is
concerned. I wouldn’t think so.
# * # * #
Deposition of Joyce Griffin
Deposition of Robert B. Fleming
—59—
* * * # #
C ross-E xa m in a tion b y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Mr. Fleming, are you for or opposed to integration
of the Franklin County Schools? A. Well, I don’t feel
as though I am—have any very strong preferences either
way as long as I have a school in which to teach in and in
which I am employed by the Franklin County School Board.
Q. Would you like to see the schools integrated or segre
gated? A. I haven’t really given a great deal of thought to
it and don’t feel as though I have a really strong feeling
pro or con.
Q. Do you have any preference in the school in which
you teach? A. Salary-wise, convenience to home, I do.
—60—
Q. Do you have any preference about the racial composi
tion of the schools? A. As long as it is comparable and
the pay is attractive and the distance which I have to travel
and the school is in good order, I wouldn’t have any ob
jection at all.
Q. And then you would have no objection then to teach
ing in Perry’s School or Gold Sand? A. If it was a
comparable school to the one I am in, no, I have no ob
jection at all.
Q. You have no objection to teaching in Riverside? A.
I f it was comparable, I wouldn’t have any objection.
Q. Has anyone ever sought to encourage you to teach in
either of those schools? A. Yes. The Franklin County
Board of Education has.
Q. At what time? A. At the beginning of this school
year.
Q. And you say the Board did, or did the superintendent?
1227a
Deposition of Robert B. Fleming
A. Well, it was directed from the superintendent’s office
by the—I imagine he acted according to the Franklin
County Board of Education.
Q. Now, was this a communication? A. Yes.
Q. In writing? A. Yes.
Q. And you received it from the superintendent’s office?
A. Yes.
Q. What was in that letter? A. It was in a letter en
couraging each teacher to apply for the school that he
preferred, or she preferred, to teach in, and she would be
assigned to that school without regard to race, creed, or
color. I mean that is just very close to it. I couldn’t
promise it is—it was word for word, for its’s been since
—September that I saw the letter.
Q. This was a letter that was sent to all teachers in the
school system? A. Yes.
-61—
FRANKLIN COUNTY SCHOOLS
Warren W. Smith, Superintendent
Louisburg, North Carolina
B oard or E ducation
Mrs. T. H. Dickens,
Staff
Mrs. Margaret W. Holmes
Chairman Director of Instruction
Mrs. Mabel H. DavisMr. Clint Fuller,
Vice-Chairman
Mr. Lloyd A. West
Mr. James H. Winston
Mr. Horace W. Baker
Supervisor
Mrs. Mamie B. Clayton
Supervisor
August 8, 1966
1228a
To: Teachers, Principals, Supervisors,
F ranklin County Schools
F rom : Warren W. Smith, Superintendent
S ubject : Opening of Schools for the 1966-67 School Term
May I extend a welcome to you as a teacher in the Franklin
County Schools for the 1966-67 school year. We look for
ward to a pleasant association and trust that the year
will afford rich experiences for both teachers and students.
You will report on Monday, August 29 at 8:00 a.m. to
the school at which you will teach. The schedule for the
first three days follows:
Monday, August 29 —Teacher - Principal Orientation.
At this time schedules will he
made, pupil records studied, and
school facilities and equipment
surveyed.
Tuesday, August 30 —Teacher-Parent Orientation. At
this time parents are invited to
visit the school for individual
conferences with teachers.
Wednesday, August 31—Teacher-Pupil Orientation. At
this time pupils will report to
pay fees, get class assignments
secure books and prepare for the
official opening of school on
Thursday, September 1, 1966.
Deposition of Robert B. Fleming
1229a
An Order issued by the United States District Court for
the Eastern District of North Carolina on 27 July 1966,
provides:
“That race, color or national origin shall not be a factor
in the hiring or assignment to schools or within schools
of teachers and professional staff. Yacant teacher
positions in the future shall be open to all applicants,
and each filled by the best qualified applicant regard
less of race. The Franklin County School Board shall
encourage transfers by present members of the faculty
to schools within the system in which pupils are wholly
or predominantly of a race other than such teacher’s.”
Therefore, if for the coming school year you desire to
transfer to a school within the Franklin County system in
which the pupils are wholly or predominantly of a race
other than yours, this is to ask that you promptly notify
the Superintendent in writing, preferably by return mail
as teachers must report to their respective schools three (3)
weeks from this date. If you apply for such a transfer,
the Board of Education will endeavor to honor your request
in the light of any existing vacancies in your field in the
school to which you ask for a transfer.
(T etje Copy)
Deposition of Robert B. Fleming
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 1
Deposition of Robert Fleming
1230a
D ep o s itio n o f A lv e r e t ta M o o re
* * * * #
C ross-E xa m in a tion by M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Just for the record, Mrs. Moore, what is your race?
A. My race!
Q. Yes, ma’am. A. Negro.
—99—
Q. Now, you and Mrs. Satterwhite were working together
for Mrs. Butler originally, is that right? A. Yes.
Q. And Mrs. Satterwhite was sending her child to a
white school at that time? A. Bunn. A little boy.
Q. And you were sending your children to what school?
A. Gethsemane.
Q. And Mrs. Butler continued to need which one of you?
A. I continued to work.
Q. And Mrs. Satterwhite did not? A. No.
Q. And the reason that Mrs. Butler gave was what?
A. Well, she said she didn’t believe in races mixing.
* # # # *
—107—
* * * # *
Q. You have heard of—besides Mrs. Satterwhite’s prob-
blem—of other children? A. Since then I have heard of a
lot of things, but at the time I didn’t think of it then.
Q. When did you hear of the other incidents? A. Well,
I have read it in the papers and seen it over the news.
Q. What are some of the ones—have you heard about
the cross burnings at Mr. Booker Driver’s house? A. No,
I didn’t hear about that.
Q. Have you heard about the shooting at Mr. J. C. Fogg’s
house? A. Yes, maybe.
— 98—
1231a
Q. Or Mrs Irene Arrington, the shooting into that house!
A. I guess maybe so I did.
Q. Have yoxi heard about the trouble Reverend Coppedge
—108—
has had! A. I don’t know, but, anyway, I hear something
about some kerosene in the well. I don’t know who it was,
but I did hear that.
Q. But you associated them in your mind, did you, with
people who send their children to white scholos—those in
cidents! A. Well, yes. I don’t know that is what it was
about.
Q. You have heard, haven’t you, that the Ku Klux Klan
has been active in Franklin County at meetings of cross
burnings and things! A. Yes, in the last year. Some
time back.
Q. That is known in the community, isn’t it! A. Well,
I guess so.
Q. It is also known, isn’t it, that the Ku Klux Klan is
against integration! A. Yes.
Q. You know that yourself, don’t you! A. I have heard
it.
Q. You have heard it. Now, the facts of this, all these
incidents, would that be to encourage people to go to the
white schools—the Negroes! A. I don’t know. Yes, sir,
it would encourage them.
Q. It would encourage them or discourage them!
Deposition of Alveretta Moore
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the arguing, what
it could or could not do.
—109—
A. I never—that is not the reason why I didn’t send mine.
1232a
D ep o s itio n o f A lv e r e t ta M o o re
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. That is not the reason why you didn’t send yours;
the reason why you didn’t send yours, because they wanted
to go to Gethsemane ? A. Yes.
Q. They wanted to go to the school they went to before?
A. Yes.
Q. Supposing the children had wanted to go to Bunn,
wouldn’t you have to think about those incidents at least?
A. I would have thought about them, but I feel like that—
I feel anything that is going to he, will he, and that cer
tainly could have been as far as I was concerned.
Q. Isn’t it true though, Mrs. Moore, that your risk would
he greater if you had sent them to the white schools?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. Well, maybe. I would have let them go.
Q. You would have let them go despite the risk? A.
Not despite, but if they wanted to go, I would have let them
go, and they would have gone if they had wanted to.
Q, Do you know the Satterwhite family very well? A.
—n o —
I have been living near them for about four or four and a
half years.
Q. Do you know Carl Lee? A. Yes.
Q. Have you discussed his attendance at Bunn School
with him? A. Well, no, I haven’t really discussed it with
him.
Q. You haven’t heard that he had things thrown at him
when he went to that school? A. I have heard it.
Q. Who have you heard it from? A. From some of the
kids that live in the community talking about it.
1233a
Q. Would you have wanted some of your kids to have
things thrown at them! A. Well, no.
Q. It is as simple as that.
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the arguing.
A. I wouldn’t have wanted them to, but I feel like this
about this: maybe some children is—maybe he is kind of
to hisself a lot, from what I heard the children say.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Is that reason to have things thrown at you! A.
Well, it may be just boys—may be he throwed at them and
they throwed at him and they think nothing of it. From
—Ill—
what—the way they had it, throwing was going on by him,
too. I think they were playing.
Q. Things were thrown at him, too! A. They were play
ing.
Q. What did he say was thrown at him! Were there any
spitballs thrown at him? A. Well, I just think they were
playing. I haven’t heard them say anything about no vio
lence or anything.
Q. Wait a moment. Let’s go back to Carl Lee. You
haven’t heard that there were any spitballs thrown at him?
A. I think maybe spitballs thrown at him. He kind of
stay to hisself a lot. What maybe the boys, the children
say.
Q. Who told you that? A. Well, my twelve-year old.
Q. Who told you that? A. I heard some of the children
talking to him about it.
Q. Which children? A. Some of the children in the com
munity.
Deposition of Alveretta Moore
1234a
Q. Can you name them? A. I don’t recall, no. Just
the children plays around the yard. I never hear him say
anything about it, either him or his parents. I never hear
— 112—
either one of them say anything about it.
Q. Is there another Satterwhite family in that area in
cluding a person who graduated from Bunn High School
last year? A. Yes.
Q. Was it a boy who graduated? A. It was a girl.
Q. What is her name? A. Elsie Mae.
Q. Did you hear about any member of that Satterwhite
family having some trouble with white boys in the street?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. Does it ring some kind of bell with you?
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the question.
A. Well, I don’t remember now if I did.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. You don’t remember? A. No.
Q. But you might have? A. Well, I tell you, I can’t—
I heard so many things I can’t keep up with all that stuff.
Q. Now, let me ask you this final question, ma’am. You
wouldn’t have any objection, would you, to more integration
of the schools, to more Negroes going to school with the
—113—
white people? A. Well, I tell you, it is not what they—
they are going to do what they want to anyway.
Deposition of Alveretta Moore
1235a
Deposition of Cunetter Bolden
- I S O -
Cross E xa m in a tion b y M r. S ch w elb :
# # # # *
—151—
# # # # #
Q. But you have heard that some Negroes in. Louisburg,
with children at the white schools, had their homes shot
into! A. No, I hadn’t heard that.
Q. You heard that some of them had kerosene put in their
—152-
well? A. Heard that up in Wakefield, hack up in there.
Q. Wakefield is in Franklin County, isn’t it? A. It is in
Wake County.
Q. You have never heard of such an incident in Franklin
County? A. I sure haven’t.
Q. Not even one? A. Not nothing about no shooting
in houses. Nothing like that.
Q. No kersene in the wells? A. No.
Q. No cross burnings? A. I ain’t heard that.
Q. Did you hear about threats to the activities bus in
Franklinton—Ku Klux Klan threats? A. No, I haven’t
heard that.
Q. It is possible those things could have happened and
you not hear about it? A. That’s right.
Q. Without you hearing about it? A. That’s right. I
don’t hear everything.
Q. You don’t hear everything? A. As I say, I don’t hear
everything.
Q. Of course, other Negro people might have heard about
—153—
it even though you didn’t? A. Uh-hunh because, now, as
you said, if I takes papers and read I might could hear all
of this, but I don’t take no papers.
1236a
Q. You don’t take the newspaper? A. That’s right.
That’s probably why I don’t hear all of this.
Q. If some other Negroes had heard of them, they could
easily be frightened by such incidents, couldn’t they?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. I can’t understand you.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Supposing there is another Negro whose name is
Jones, let’s say, and he hears that a lot of Negroes who
have sent their children to white schools have had diffi
culties like that. That could make him afraid to send his
children to white schools, couldn’t it?
Mr. Yarborough : Object to the form.
A. Yes, it could make him afraid.
* # # # #
Deposition of Melissa Dean
—7—
C ross E xa m in a tion by M r. S ch w elb :
* * # # *
— 10—
* * • # »
Q. So the choice you have for your children is the choice
between some colored schools and the white schools—isn’t
that true? A. Yes.
Q. And you understand that to be the choice? A. Yes.
Q. So Perry’s doesn’t have any white teachers, does it?
A. No.
1237a
Q. You could have a choice between, say—they could in
tegrate all the schools and give you a choice between those?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that would be all right, too, wouldn’t it? A. Ask
me the question again.
Q. If you had a choice between two integrated schools,
that would still be a free choice? A. No, sir.
Q. That would be all right with you? A. No, sir. I had
rather have them go to Perry’s.
Q. Suppose Edward Best and Perry’s were half white
and half colored. You’d have a choice between all of those?
— 11—
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would that suit you? A. No.
Q. You just want to go to school with all Negro chil
dren? A. No. I mean this is why I signed the forms.
Q. You don’t want your children to go to a white school?
A. I imagine it would be all right.
Q. You’d rather it be that way? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Could you tell us why that is? Do they get along bet
ter with colored children? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You think that is the reason why? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You think they couldn’t get along with white children?
A. I reckon they could get along, but I ’d rather for them to
go to Perry’s.
Q. Is one of the reasons that you think your children
could get along better with Negro children than with white
children? A. I don’t know.
Q. You don’t know whether they could or not? A. No.
Q. Do you watch television sometimes? A. Yes.
Q. Do you have a television set? A. Yes.
Deposition of Melissa Dean
— 1 2 —
1238a
Q. Have you seen some places where colored children
go to a white school and have trouble? A. Yes.
Q. Do you think about that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you think that is a bad thing? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You don’t want that happening to your children, do
you? A. No, sir.
Q. Now, Mrs. Dean, you testified that you weren’t afraid
to send your children to the white school. Now, actually,
you never gave very much thought to sending your children
to the white school, did you? A. No, sir.
Q. You were pretty certain you wanted to send them to
Perry’s where you had always sent them? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that question of whether you are afraid never
really entered your mind, did it? A. No.
Q. You mentioned Mr. D. B. Gardner. Is he your land-
—1 3 -
lord? A. Yes.
Q. You don’t think lie would set you off his land, do you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever ask him? A. No, sir. He is a nice man.
Q. So that is just what you think he is—a nice man?
A. He is.
Q. He is? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you have always sent your children to a colored
school, haven’t you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that is why he was nice—you sent your children
to a colored school—do you feel?
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Do you feel like he would be nice to you if you sent
your children to a white school? A. I feel like he would.
Deposition of Melissa Dean
1239a
Q. But you don’t know whether he would be or not! A.
No, sir.
Q. Now, none of your children are in high school yet,
are they! A. No.
Q. When they go to high school would you still want to
—14—
send them to a colored school! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Supposing you knew that the white schools were very
good and the colored schools were very bad. Where would
you want to send them then! A. To the colored school.
Q. Even though it is very bad! A. Yes. I ’d like to send
them to a colored school.
Q. Would you rather have white teachers or colored
teachers in your school! A. Colored.
Q. And you wouldn’t want any white teachers! A. No.
Q. And that is the same reason you testified before!
A. I ’d rather for mine to go to a colored school.
Q. Now, you mentioned, Mrs. Dean, that you heard about
some of these incidents with oil in the well! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who have you heard of that had that trouble! A.
I heard about Luther Coppedge.
Q. Do you live near Mr. Coppedge! A. I live about
three miles from him.
Q. You know, don’t you, that he wanted to send his
boy to a white school and did send his boy to a white
school! A. Yes.
—15—
Q. And you know he is involved in this desegregation
suit! A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever hear of him having any trouble before
he got involved in it! A. No, sir.
Q. That is not the only situation you have heard of,
is it! A. No.
Deposition of Melissa Dean
1240a
Q. You have heard of people having their homes shot
into? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You had heard of that before? A. No.
Q, Now, you have heard of people getting threatening
phone calls? A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever hear of them getting threatening phone
calls before they sent their children to a white school? A.
No.
Q. So you think of what happened when they sent their
children to a white school? A. Yes.
Q. When Mr. Davis asked you about people that had
—16—
that kind of incidents happening to them in sending their
children to a white school, do you think that encourages
or discourages people?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. Ask me the question.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Do you think the intimidating incidents you have
heard of about sending their children to white schools—-
do you think it encourages or discourages our Negroes to
go to white schools? Do you understand the question?
A. No. I ’d rather not answer the question.
Q. You’d rather not answer the question. Let me ask
you, Mrs. Dean: you want to help Mr. Yarborough’s side
of this case, don’t you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that is why you don’t want to answer the ques
tion, is it? A. No, sir.
Q. What is the reason you don’t want to answer the
question? A. I ’d rather not answer.
Deposition of Melissa Dean
1241a
Q. You’d rather not. Tell us the reason. A. (No an
swer)
Q. Well, now, Mrs. Dean, let me ask you this: do you
—1 7 -
think people like having their homes shot into! A. No.
Q. You particularly think they like having tacks put
in their driveway! A. No.
Q. Do you think they like having oil put in their wells?
A. No.
Q. Do you think they like getting threatening telephone
calls? A. No.
Q. You know the answers to those questions and you
don’t want to answer whether you think those things
encourage or discourage people? You know the answer,
don’t you? A. Yes, sir.
* # # * *
Deposition of Ollie Strickland
—57—
R ecro ss E xa m in a tion b y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. You said that—what you are really saying is that
Negroes get along fine in your community as long as they
stay in their place—is that correct? A. That’s right.
—58—
Q. And there is a recognized place for Negroes and a rec
ognized place for white people? A. That’s right.
Q. And that is what you have been saying all day, isn’t
it? A. That’s right.
Q. And that is why you are not afraid, isn’t it? A.
That’s right.
Q. Because you don’t plan to get out of it? A. That’s
right, don’t plan to get out of my place, that’s right.
1242a
R e-R ed irec t E xa m in a tion by M r. D a v is :
Q. Mrs. Strickland, state whether or not in your opinion
you have the freedom and the right to go and come as you
please?
Deposition of Ollie Strickland
Mr. Schwelb: Object to the form of the question.
Mr. Davis: (To witness) You can answer.
A. What did you say?
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. State whether or not in your opinion you have the
right and freedom to go and come as you please in your
community? A. State why I have it?
Q. State whether or not you have. A. Oh, yes, I have
—59—
the right to go and come when I get ready, and I am not
afraid because I tend to my own business and as long as—
any neighborhood where you live, you tend to your business,
you’ve got a right to go and come when you get ready, ain’t
you.
Q. And that is what you meant when you told Mr. Cham
bers, when you said you weren’t afraid because you stayed
in your place?
Mr. Schwelb: Object to the form of the question.
A. Exactly. That is what I mean.
1243a
D ep os ition o f G ladys B a y e s
* * * * *
* * * * *
—27—
C ross E xa m in a tion by M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. You don’t know anything about the difference in the
schools at Gold Sand and Perry’s, do you? A. No.
Q. And you don’t know whether one offers a better pro
gram than the other? A. Well, I reckon it’s better in
some things. I reckon. But when you are used to other
things, you are used to it.
Q. What do you mean it is better in some things? A.
We have a nice school. Perry’s is a nice school. Have a
nice principal. And, also, they are satisfied. I don’t know.
Q. Wouldn’t you want your children to get the best
possible education? A. Well, yeah.
Q. And you’d want them to be able to compete equally
—28—
with the white children, wouldn’t you? A. Yes.
Q. Would you want that even if they went to Gold Sand
rather than Perry’s? A. If they was satisfied.
Q. Would you have any objection if they consolidated
the high school at Perry’s and Gold Sand? A. I can’t
hear you.
Q, Would you have any objection if they consolidated
the high school at Perry’s and Gold Sand? A. I don’t
know. I don’t feel like that mine would be satisfied be
cause they said they wanted to go to Perry’s.
Q. Isn’t it true, Mrs. Hayes, that the reason you don’t
think they would be satisfied is that Negroes really don’t
know how they would be treated at the white schools? A.
Well, they don’t know when they ain’t never been there.
— 19—
1244a
Q. Isn’t it true, Mrs. Hayes, that they are kind of afraid
to find out! A. I reckon it is.
Mr. Chambers: Thank yon, Mrs. Hayes.
# # # # #
Deposition of Robert Richardson
—AO-
C ross E xa m in a tion b y M r. C h a m b ers :
# # * # #
—43—
* * * * *
Q. Have you been to Gold Sand School! A. No, sir.
Q. You don’t know whether Gold Sand would give your
child a better education than she is getting at Perry’s,
do you! A. No, sir, I sure don’t.
Q. Would you like for your child to have the best kind
of education? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You want her to be able to compete with all of the
children in this County, don’t you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You wouldn’t like for her to be at a disadvantage
because she didn’t get a proper education in school? A.
That’s right.
Q. You’d like for your child to be able to meet and get
—44—
along with all children, too? White and any other. A.
Yes.
Q. Don’t you think she would be able to if she were
associating with them? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Don’t you think you ought to have more contact in
Franklin County or around Centerville among the whites
and Negroes and Indians? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you have any objection if they were to put
the high school at Perry’s over at Gold Sand? A. No, sir
Q. If it offered a better educational program for your
1245a
child? A. No, sir, I wouldn’t have a bit of objection. If
they was going to turn it over there, I mean.
Q. What you are saying—yon would want your child to
go where she wouldn’t have any trouble ? A. That’s right,
that’s right.
Q. Did you go to school in Franklin County? A. No, sir.
Q. Now you said that you have a child going to Morehead
School in Baleigh? A. Yes, sir.
—45—
Q. And you said that they had some whites and some
Negroes who attend that school? A. That’s right.
Q. Have you ever thought about why you didn’t have
whites and Negroes in the same school here in Franklin
County? A. No, I sure haven’t.
Q. Do you know why you haven’t had it? A. Just ain’t
never been used to it. That’s why I figure it didn’t go like
they do up there.
Q. Your child isn’t having any problem down there, is
she? A. No, sir.
Q. Is that a boy or girl? A. Girl.
Q. She seems to be able to get along fine with other chil
dren? A. Yes, sir. Her and the, you know, other children
get along fine.
Q. And you don’t have any objection at all if the School
Board desegregated the school system, would you? A.
No, sir.
Q. In fact, you think it would help, don’t you? A. Yes,
Deposition of Robert Richardson
sir.
1246a
Deposition of Evelyn Kay Karris
— 8 —
# # # # *
C ross E xa m in a tion toy M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Did you have a good time at the prom? A. Yes.
Q. Kay, you will be in the twelfth grade next year, will
you? A. Yes.
Q. And what kind of grades have you been getting? A.
I am an honor student.
Q. I thought you might be. Now, let me ask you whether
—9—
you know some of the Fogg children, the children of J. C.
Fogg? A. Yes.
Q. And were they friends of yours at Riverside last
year? A. Yes. Not good friends, but we were friends.
Q. Do you know of anything that happened to them this
year after they started at Louisburg? Anything that hap
pened to their home. A. I remember hearing something
about it, but I don’t remember exactly what it was.
Q. Do you remember hearing about the shooting into
their home? A. Yes.
Q. And had you ever heard of their home being shot at
before they went to the white school? A. No.
Q. And that is not the only such incident you have heard
of, is it? A. No.
Q. Do you know Reverend Dunston? A. Yes.
Q. Have you heard of trouble he’s had in—trouble about
desegregation? A. Yes.
— 10—
Q. What is some of the trouble you have heard? A.
Was he the one that—let me see.
Q. Let me ask you specifically. Did you know that he
and his wife had a foster child in their home? A. Yes.
1247a
Q. And did you hear that that child was taken away?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you hear that that had something to do with
school desegregation? A. I really don’t know, but every
body gathered that is what it was.
Q. And you heard about him having oil or kerosene put
in his well? A. Yes.
Q. And you heard about the tacks or nails being put in
his driveway? A. Yes.
Q. And you heard about Mr. James Cheek having that
problem, didn’t you? A. Yes.
Q. And you heard that Jerome Cheek had some trouble
with some of the white students when he went to Louisburg
- 11-
last year, didn’t you? A. Some trouble?
Q. Well, did you hear, for instance, that they put his
books down the toilet one time? A. No, I didn’t hear
that.
Q. Did you hear that he had some difficulties with some
of the white students? A. No.
Q. But you have heard perhaps of the shooting into
Mrs. Irene Arrington’s house?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form of the ques
tion to the house.
Mr. Schwelb: Kay, when Mr. Yarborough objected
to the form of the question, that is for the Court.
You may go ahead and answer.
A. Yes.
B y M r, S ch w elb :
Q. And you heard that Reverend Luther Coppedge has
had trouble with different kinds of intimidation since he
Deposition of Evelyn Kay Harris
1248a
has been active in desegregation, haven’t yon! A. Yes.
Q. And can you think of any other specific people who
have had trouble? A. No.
Q. You have been aware, haven’t you, that the Ku Klux
Klan has been active here in this County? A. Yes.
— 12—
Q. And that they are against school integration? A.
Yes.
Q. And I think you probably are even aware that a can
didate supported by the Klan was almost elected to a
County office here in this County recently, aren’t you? A.
Yes.
Q. So you are aware that the Ku Klux Klan had a. con
siderable amount of support in the white community? A.
Yes.
Q. And therefore being aware of that you know that
there is a good deal of white opposition to school desegrega
tion here? A. Yes.
Q. And you know that Negro people are poorer than
white people, by and large, in this County? A. Yes.
Q. And they depend on white people economically? A.
Yes.
Q. And you know that as a result some are—some Ne
groes are afraid to send their children to white schools,
don’t you? A. Yes, some are.
Q. It could be quite a few, couldn’t it? A. I guess so.
—13—
Q. Now what were Carolyn Jones’ grades last year at
Kiverside, do you know? A. Her grades?
Q. Do you know whether she was a good student at
Riverside, or a poor student? A. She was an average stu
dent.
Deposition of Evelyn Kay Harris
1249a
Q. Did she fail anything as you know off A. Not that
I know of.
Q. Are yon a good friend of hers, or just casual! A.
Casual.
Q. Let me ask you: I take it you chose Riverside because
you had always gone there, your friends were there? A.
Yes.
Q. I assume you were not personally afraid to go to
Louisburg! A. No, I wasn’t.
Q. Do you feel you would have been as comfortable at
Louisburg as you were at Riverside! A. I don’t see how
I could be because, you know—you see, I wouldn’t have
known all the people at Louisburg that I do know already
at Riverside.
Q. And that is true of the teachers, too, isn’t it! A.
Yes.
Q. You know the teachers at Riverside? A. Yes.
— 14—
Q. So if there were a lot of teachers at Riverside who
are now at Louisburg, you would be more comfortable at
Louisburg than you would if there were no Negro teachers?
A. Not necessarily. It is true I would be more comfortable
with my teachers, but if I changed—if I were to change
schools, I wouldn’t still have the same surroundings that 1
am accustomed to at Riverside.
Q. Let me ask you this question, Kay. I think you can
probably give me a reasonably intelligent answer. "Where
do you think you can get the best education if you started
all over again—at Louisburg or Riverside? A. If I
started all over again?
Q. Yes. A. Let me see. I suppose that I—you mean if
the schools were the same as they are now?
Q. That’s right. And if you were starting school all
Deposition of Evelyn Kay Harris
1250a
over again, where do you think you would get a better
education!
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
A. I guess I would do better at Riverside because, you see,
I think that I would do better where there is more Negroes
—15—
I guess.
Q. Suppose that both schools were fully integrated, part
—half white and half Negro and just kept the same courses
and same equipment and same courses, and so on, where
do you think you could get a better education? A. I don’t
think it would matter really.
Q. Now, how many times have you talked to Carolyn
Jones in the last year would you say? A. To be honest
with you I really don’t remember actually talking to her
at all.
Q. During the last year? A. Not that I can recall.
Q. But you might have talked to her? A. Yes.
Q. But if you did you have forgotten; you don’t remem
ber actually every time you have been with Carolyn Jones,
do you? A. No.
Q. Do you know anything about Cedar Street School?
A. A little.
Q. Did you go there? A. No.
Q. What do you plan to do when you finish school? A.
I plan to attend college and to become a social worker.
—16—
Q. Let me ask you, Kay, whether you are in favor of
desegregation? A. Yes, I am.
Q. Do you think that the Board of Education up until
Deposition of Evelyn Kay Harris
1251a
two years ago, when they ran segregated schools, were
denying Negroes their rights? A. Yes.
Q. And would you have any objection to the schools in
this County being fully integrated! A. No, I wouldn’t.
Q. Would you have any objection to every child attend
ing the school nearest home? A. No.
Q. Do you think that race relations could be improved
by more contact between the white and colored people? A.
Yes.
Q. Don’t you think that a greater degree of integration
could bring that about? A. Yes.
Q. Don’t you think that under the free choice system the
Negro schools are going to stay all Negro? A. No. I
mean—
Q. Do you think white students will choose to go to Negro
- 1 7 -
schools? A. No, I really don’t.
Q. Won’t the majority of the Negro students for various
reasons continue to choose Negro schools? A. I suppose
so.
Q. And that a great majority of the students will con
tinue to have a segregated education, won’t they? A. Yes.
Mr. Schwelb: No further questions.
* # # # #
Deposition of Evelyn Kay Harris
1252a
Deposition of Veronica Dawkins
—24—
C ross E xam in ation by M r. S ch ivelb :
# # * * #
— 26—
# * # # #
Q. You know there is a Ku Klux Klan in Franklin
County, don’t you? A. Yes.
Q. And you know it has quite a big following among
Louisburg white people, don’t you? A. Yes.
Q. And you know the Ku Klux Klan is against school
integration, don’t you? A. Yes.
Q. Now, you also know, don’t you, that a lot of the Negro
people depend on white people for their jobs and live on
white people’s property, and so on, in this County? A.
Yes.
Q. And so that to some extent the white people have the
power to help them or hurt them? A. Yes.
Q. And you know that a good many white people are
—27—
against school integration, don’t you? A. Yes.
Q. Now you are not saying that none of the colored
people consider that in picking their schools, are you? A.
No, sir.
Q. You don’t think anything like that is true, do you?
A. No.
Q. Now, in fact, you think that a lot of people have to
consider that, don’t you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So when you testified earlier that you didn’t think
the people were afraid, what you meant was-—well, you
meant that they didn’t have anything to be afraid of when
they went to Riverside? A. No.
1253a
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form of the
question.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. They didn’t have anything to be afraid of when they
went to Riverside, did they? A. No.
Q. Now, you haven’t discussed with individual people
whether they are afraid, have you? A. No.
Q. You haven’t asked them either way, have you? A.
Deposition of Veronica Hawkins
Q. Now would it be true to say you chose Riverside
because it is the school you have always gone to? A. Yes.
Q. Your friends are there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. The teachers that you know are there? A. Yes.
Q. And you know that you can get along well with them?
A. Yes.
Q. Now you have never been to a school where most of
the children are white, have you? A. No.
Q. And you have never been to a school where most of
the teachers are white? A. No.
Q. And there is no way of knowing how you would get
along with them? A. No.
Q. Did you consider this in choosing Riverside? A. No.
I just wanted to go to Riverside because I went there all
of my eleven grades.
Q. When you say you went there for eleven grades—
you had freedom of choice for two years, didn’t you? A.
Yes.
— 29—
Q. The previous nine years you didn’t have any choice,
did you? A. No.
Q. You were assigned to Riverside because you were a
Negro? A. Yes.
1254a
D ep o s itio n o f V eron ica H aw kins
Q. And yon knew that! A. Yes.
Q. So it might have been a completely different story
if yon had the choice right at the beginning?
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form of that
question.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. If you had the choice or your parents had had the
choice when you first went to school, the situation would
have been quite different, wouldn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. Now, let me ask you this: you testified that you are
familiar with Negro teachers and not with white teachers.
At Louisburg—supposing you had to go to Louisburg.
Would you be more comfortable there with some Negro
teachers or with no Negro teachers? A. I wouldn’t be
comfortable.
Q. You wouldn’t be comfortable at all? A. No.
—30—
Q. Would you be more comfortable at Edward Best if
there were some Negro teachers there? A. No.
Q. And that is because all of the others are white? A.
I don’t know.
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the form of the
question. It is argumentative.
Mr. Schwelb: (To Witness) You can answer the
questions. That is just for the Court.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. That is because you don’t know the other students?
A. I don’t know.
1255a
D ep o s itio n o f V eron ica H aw kins
Mr. Yarborough: She said she didn’t know.
B y M r. Schw elb :
Q. What did you say? A. I said I didn’t know.
Q. You don’t know whether you would be comfortable!
A. No, sir.
Q. You do know* you would be comfortable at Louisburg?
A. No.
Q. I mean at Riverside. I ’m sorry. Excuse me. A. Yes.
# < # # * #
—31—
* # # # #
Q. Veronica, you are not saying that none of the Negroes
who have gone to white schools have had trouble, are you?
A. No.
Q. By and large the Negroes who haven’t gone to white
schools, haven’t had trouble, have they?
Mr. Yarborough: Object to the form.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. The Negroes who haven’t gone to white schools
haven’t had the trouble, have they? A. No.
Q. You haven’t had any trouble? A. No.
Q. You have gone to a colored school? A. Yes.
# # # # #
1256a
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
The Court: Are counsel for the plaintiffs ready to pro
ceed in Coppedge v. The Franklin County Board of Edu
cation ?
Mr. Chambers: Yes, your Honor.
The Court: And counsel for the Intervenor?
Mr. Schwelb: Yes, sir, we are ready, your Honor.
The Court: And counsel for the defendants?
Mr. Yarborough: Yes, your Honor.
The Court: Counsel for the Plaintiff-Intervenor may call
their evidence.
Mr. Schwelb: May it please the Court, may I introduce
—5—
some of my documentary evidence? I think it might be
simpler if we incorporate all of the depositions taken by
the Plaintiff-Intervenor and probably by stipulation the
depositions also taken by the Defendants heretofore and
make those a part of the record.
I suppose the various parties may have objections to
the contents of individual depositions; however, I would
be perfectly willing to submit the depositions and leave it
to your Honor’s discretion as to whether or not any par
ticular objection is sustained or whether it is material and
competent.
The Court: Well, this is a matter before the Court. The
Court can determine whether portions of the depositions
are competent or incompetent.
Mr. Schwelb: We are also going to provide the Court,
your Honor, with an index to the depositions. There are
also a number of exhibits that are in evidence from last
year’s depositions. They will be listed. We have additional
exhibits which are exhibits in particular depositions.
—4—
1257a
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
C olloqu y
I would like to introduce at this point Government’s
Exhibits 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 and 36, which are not yet in
evidence, and I don’t know how your Honor would like to
deal with that.
The Court: Just tell me the nature of those.
—6—
Mr. Schwelb: Government’s Exhibit 31, your Honor, is
The Principals’ Monthly Reports for the Year 1966-67,
made by the principals of the Franklin County schools to
the State Board of Education. They are used largely for
statistical information and for the existence or non
existence of disparities between the schools. We have
stipulated previously with Mr. Yarborough as to the au
thenticity of documents of this kind, although the defendant
reserved its right to object to their relevancy in evidence.
Government’s Exhibit 32, your Honor, is a document
submitted by the Board with respect to their transporta
tion schedules, also for the year 1966-67.
Government’s Exhibit 33 is a clipping from The Frank
lin Times, dated April 25, 1967, entitled “Franklin-
ton School Hearing Recessed.” Again I believe that the
defendants have indicated previously that they are willing
to stipulate that this is a copy of the newspaper, but they
are not willing to stipulate the admissibility of it in evi
dence. Perhaps the Court could take it subject to their
objection.
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor please, we object, of
course, to the introduction of Exhibits 31, 32, and 33. The
first two, 31 and 32, are not relevant to the issues raised
in this proceeding, and, of course, we object to No. 33 on
—7 and 8—
the ground that it is not relevant and not admissible. We
have agreed that this is a copy of what was published in
1258a
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
C olloqu y
the newspaper only, not that it is relevant, has any bearing
on this case, or is competent.
The Court: I understand that you admit their authen
ticity, but you object to their relevancy?
Mr. Yarborough: Yes, sir. It pertains to a different unit
rather than to the Franklin County Administrative Unit
on both objections.
Mr. Schwelb: That’s true, your Honor, but it was pub
lished in The Franklin Times which is edited by a member
of the Franklin County School Board.
Nowt, Exhibit 34 is a clipping from The Franklin Times
of April 25, 1967, entitled, “ County School System Headed
Back to Court.”
Mr. Yarborough: Of course, we object to that on the
same grounds.
Mr. Schwelb: Government’s Exhibit 35 is a clipping
from The Franklin Times of July 13, 1967, entitled “Frank-
linton Board Studies Further Desegregation.”
Mr. Yarborough: Objection on the same grounds.
The Court: Suppose we wait until he offers them, and
then you may object to all of them at one time if you wish.
—9—
Mr. Schwelb: Government’s Exhibit 36, which was
omitted by mistake when we previously introduced evi
dence, is an editorial from the Raleigh News & Observer,
dated September 10, 1966, entitled “Pressure in A Thicket.”
I would like to offer these in evidence at this time, your
Honor.
The Court: I understand that you object to all of these
as being irrelevant to the issues before the Court!
Mr. Yarborough: They are hearsay evidence also, sir,
and that’s not competent evidence to be offered in a trial.
1259a
Mr. Schwelb: Your Honor, we are not trying to offer
any of these newspaper articles for the truth of their con
tent, but only for the fact that these newspapers were pub
lished and were presumably read by persons in Franklin
County.
I would like to call Reverend Luther Coppedge to the
stand, if it please your Honor.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
T he R everend L uther Coppedge, called as a witness by
the Plaintiff-Intervenor, having been duly sworn, was ex
amined and testified as follows:
D irect E xam in ation b y M r. S ch w elb :
—10—
Q- Would you state your name, residence, and your race,
please? A. Luther Coppedge, Route 4, Louisburg, North
Carolina.
Q. What is your race? A. Negro.
Q. What part of Franklin County do you live in? A. I
live in the Justice Community. It’s nine miles east of Louis
burg.
Q. Who is Harold Coppedge? A. That is my son.
Q. Where does Harold Coppedge go to school now? A.
Edward Best High School.
Q. Is Harold Coppedge the first named plaintiff in this
case? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How old are you, Reverend Coppedge? A. Thirty-
nine.
Q. What is your occupation? A. I farm and minister.
Q. How much schooling have you had, sir? A. I am a
Junior at Shaw University.
1260a
Q. You previously finished high school? A. Yes, sir, I
— 11—
did.
Q. Now, did you previously testify in this case, Reverend
Coppedge? A. Not here. I testified at Louisburg. This
is my first time testifying here.
Q. Did you take a deposition upstairs in the U. S. At
torney’s office last year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You mentioned that your son is a first named plain
tiff in this suit. What brought it on that he sued the
School Board of Franklin County? A. Well, we received
a blank that we could request assignment to any school we
desired. We requested Edward Best High School. About
two weeks or a week before school opened in 1965, we re
ceived a notice that he had been rejected. So I called the
Superintendent and asked him why he was rejected.
Q. This was in the fall of 1965? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Prior to the fall of 1965, where had your son gone to
school? A. Perry’s High School.
Q. Now, is Perry’s High School a school taught by Negro
teachers or white teachers? A. Negro teachers.
— 12—
Q. And the students at Perry’s, are they white or Negro?
A. Negro.
Q. Prior to 1965, do you know of any Negro that at
tended a school with white children in Franklin County?
A. I do not, sir.
Q. Do you know of any white person who attended school
with Negroes in Franklin County? A. No, sir.
Q. Now, you applied to Edward Best High School on
behalf of your son when he applied in 1965-66. Could you
briefly state the reason why he applied to Edward Best
High School? A. Well, it was much closer. Perry’s school
Transcript o f Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
1261a
is fifteen or sixteen miles from home, and Edward Best is
three and a half miles. So I thought he could get back
earlier in the afternoon to help do some work. That was
my main reason. The second reason, I wanted him to take
Agriculture, and he did also.
Q. Now, do you recall whether at the time when the
schools were first desegregated at all in Franklin County
in 1965 whether all grades were simultaneously desegre
gated? A. Four grades were.
Q. Is it true that your son was in a different grade from
those four? A. Yes, sir.
—-13—
Q. And, Reverend Coppedge, were you told prior to
applying to Edward Best what criteria you would have to
meet, if any, to attend Edward Best? A. I was not, sir.
Q. Was his application for lateral transfer accepted or
rejected? A. Rejected.
Q. And was this suit brought thereafter? A. Yes, it
was.
Q. Do you have any recollection, Reverend Coppedge,
whether the names of the applicants for attending previ
ously white schools for the first time in Franklin County
were revealed in any newspaper? A. I would like to hear
that again.
Q. Did the names of the Negroes who applied to attend
previously white schools get published in any newspaper?
A. Yes, they were, sir.
Q. And what newspaper was that? A. The Franklin
Times.
Q. And who is the editor of that newspaper? A. The
Yice-President of the Board, Mr. Fuller.
Q. Do you see him in the room at the present time? A.
Yes, sir.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs— Direct
—14—
Q. Is he the editor of the Times and the Vice-President
of the Board? A. Yes, he is, sir.
Q. And were the names also heard on the radio, if you
know? A. Yes, I was told that they were.
Mr. Davis: Object to what he was told.
The Court: Sustained.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. You don’t know of your own knowledge? A. No, sir.
Mr. Davis: Move the answer be stricken, your
Honor.
Mr. Schwelb: I will withdraw the question, your
Honor.
The Court: Now, gentlemen, suppose we look at
this as a very practical matter now. There is no
jury sitting here. It’s a matter before the Court. If
evidence or questions are asked that are incompe
tent or answers given that are incompetent, the
Court will exclude them from its consideration at
the proper time. There is no need to press objec
tions or motions to strike in this sort of hearing.
You may object, of course, for the record, but we
don’t even want to clutter up the record with too
—15—
many objections and exceptions because the Court
will automatically exclude from its consideration any
evidence that it considers incompetent.
Mr. Schwelb: Thank you, your Honor, and I want
to say that I certainly didn’t intend to prove a point
by something that somebody else had told him.
1263a
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Now, prior to getting involved in desegregation, Rev
erent Coppedge, did you have any kind of difficulty, harass
ment, or intimidation in Franklin County at all? A. No,
sir.
Q. Do you remember any incident of any kind that might
be considered pressure? A. I do not.
Q. Now, after these names were published in The Frank
lin Times, do you recall anything happening to you of an
intimidating nature? A. Yes, sir. Shortly after the names
were printed, I started receiving telephone calls, threats.
One said they would give us four days to get out of the
County, and someone asked who did I want to preach my
funeral, and they would call the name of Edward Best
School.
Q. How often would these—
Mr. Davis: Your Honor, can I ask a question for
—16—
our information? Did I understand you to say that
you wanted us to object to his question when he
asked him what somebody told Reverend Coppedge?
The Court: You may object if you wish to for the
purpose of the record.
Mr. Davis: We object to these questions.
The Court: All right, I understand. You are ob
jecting to this whole line of questioning.
Mr. Davis: Yes, sir.
Mr. Schwelb: Excuse me. I ’m not clear what
nature the question is you are objecting to.
Mr. Davis: We are objecting to what Reverend
Coppedge said somebody told him on the telephone.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs•—Direct
1264a
Mr. Schwelb: For the record, your Honor, I ’m
not trying to prove the truth of what the telephone
told him. I ’m trying to prove what happened to
Reverend Coppedge.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Now, how many times did you at that time get tele
phone calls, how frequently? A. Well, at least 10 or 15
a day.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor please, may I
inquire of the Court as to the status of these depo
sitions? All of this testimony has been taken in a
deposition as to this period of time. I had under-
—17—
stood that the purpose of those was to obviate the
necessity of just puttering along.
The Court: Well, if it will be of any interest to
counsel, the court has read most of these deposi
tions. I haven’t read them all because, frankly, I
haven’t had the time unless I had taken off: the last
month and done nothing else.
Now, if this is a repetition of what is in the depo
sition, it is a waste of the Court’s time.
It is my understanding that the Plaintiffs-Inter-
venors are limited to 5 witnesses, and the defendants
are limited to five witnesses; and it is to be hoped
that this hearing is going to be concluded not later
than tomorrow afternoon, because this Court has
other matters set up for the following day; and I
understand that some of the counsel have appoint
ments near the West Coast.
1265a
Mr. Schwelb: Your Honor, just to reassure the
Court and opposing counsel, we are only going to
call one witness; and we are going to turn to matters
that happened after the Interim Order in about a
minute.
The Court: Very well. Go ahead.
—18—
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Now, did you testify last year about the various in
cidents that happened before the Interim Order? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And wasn’t your testimony just about the same time
as the Interim Order? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you tell the truth at that time? A. Yes, sir,
I did, sir.
Q. Now, do you recall Judge Butler on July 27, 1966, is
suing an Interim Order? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you remember having conversation with me
and with other people about what he expected of the differ
ent people in Franklin County? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you understand Judge Butler to expect
people to do in Franklin County with respect to the Interim
Order? A. I understood that we were to do all within our
power to get the freedom of choice plan to work in the
County.
Q. And did you try to do that? A. I did, sir.
Q. Now, let me ask you generally, Reverend Coppedge,
—1 9 -
are you a member of the NAACP? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I take it that you are in favor of desegregation—equal
rights for Negroes? A. Yes, I am.
Q. Do you believe in securing these objectives within
the law or by force and violence? A. Within the law.
Transcript of Trial-—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
1266a
Q. Now, what steps did you take, if any, to try to make
freedom of choice work? A. I made the announcement in
my church, the church of which I am pastor in Franklin
County. I also made the announcement several times in
the NAACP meetings and other meetings which I attended.
Q. Did you encourage Negroes to apply to previously
white schools? A. Yes, sir, I asked them to apply, be
cause the Judge asked us to try all that we could to get
that plan to work.
Q. Did you talk to a great many people? A. Yes, I did,
sir.
Q. Now, do you recall, if you know, approximately how
many Negroes did apply to attend desegregated schools
at that time?
The Court: Now, is this following the Interim
Order?
— 20—
Mr. Schwelb: Following the Interim Order.
A. Twenty-six more applied.
Q. Twenty-six more than had applied previously? A.
Yes.
Q. Would it be true that the very great majority of Ne
groes in the County continued to attend Negro schools?
Mr. Yarborough: We object.
A. That’s true, sir.
The Court: Well, I think this would probably be
a conclusion as to the number of Negroes in the
integrated schools, as to whether a majority—well,
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
1267a
that’s all right. Go ahead. We will not quibble
about it.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Now, Reverend Coppedge, do you know whether more
of the Negroes who applied to desegregated schools live in
the Town of Louisburg or the rural areas! A. In the
Town of Louisburg.
B y the C o u r t:
Q. Now, that is a majority of the 26 additional wTho ap
plied live in the Town of Louisburg! A. Yes, sir.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Well, what about the majority of the 22 or 23 who
— 21—
applied originally! A. They also lived in Louisburg.
Q. Do you believe that most of the Negroes who applied
to attend desegregated schools own their own land or live
on other people’s land!
The Court: Well, now, if you know.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. If you know. A. Most of them live on their own
land.
Q. Can you name a few examples, then! A. Well, Mr.
Driver’s children, Mr. Gill’s children, another Gill’s chil
dren,—
Q. Well, Mr. Satterwhite—where does he live? A. He
lives on his own land.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
1268a
Q. Now, do you recall that a choice period was held
shortly after the Interim Order was entered! A. Yes, it
was.
Q. Do you know Mrs. Katie Perry! A. Yes, I know
her.
Q. Is she a Negro! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall any incident happening to her or hear
ing of any incident that happened to her at the time of
that Interim Order! A. I heard.
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
The Court: Overruled.
— 22—
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. What incident!
The Court: Now, have you got her deposition!
Mr. Schwelb: Well, I ’ve got proof of the incident
in the record, your Honor, from one of the defend
ants’ witnesses. In addition, your Honor, we think
that the—the incident was reported in the Franklin
Times which I was going to ask Reverend Coppedge
about, and the fact that this was reported would have
an effect on free choice.
The Court: All right, go ahead.
Mr. Schwelb: (To witness) Go ahead, Reverend
Coppedge.
A. Yes, a shooting incident.
Q. Was her home shot into? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did she have children in the predominantly white
school? A. No, she didn’t.
Q. Now, do you know J. C. Fogg? A. Yes, sir.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
1269a
Q. And prior to 1965-66, where did his two teenage chil
dren go to school? A. Went to Riverside.
Q. After school opened in 1965-66, where did they attend?
—23—
A. They went to Louisburg.
Q. Now, what is the racial composition of Riverside
School? A. It’s 1500, I believe.
Q. No. What race of students go there! A. Negro.
Q. And what about Louisburg? A. Predominantly white.
Q. Do you know of anything that happened to the Foggs
right after school opened? A. Yes.
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
The Court: Now, is this also in a deposition!
Mr. Schwelb: Yes, your Honor.
The Court: I wonder why we are repeating?
Mr. Schwelb: I ’m trying to get from this witness
the fact that the community heard about intimidatory
incidents and that it inhibited free choice, your
Honor.
The Court: All right. Has this also appeared in
the press?
Mr. Schwelb: The Fogg incident hasn’t. It ap
pears widely in the depositions, primarily of defend-
—2 4 -
ants’ witnesses, that most of the Negroes knew about
the incident, your Honor.
The Court: All right, go ahead.
A. Yes, their home was shot into.
Q. Do you know any white ministers who testified at the
depositions last year in favor of the Government? A.
Yes. Reverend Latham and Reverend Frank Wood.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiff's—Direct
1270a
Q. Now, without getting into details, do you know
whether they still hold their pulpits? A. No. They both
have moved.
Q. Now, from your knowledge or belief about those in
cidents, what do you think was the cause of their depar
ture?
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
Mr. Tucker: Objection.
The Court: Sustained.
Mr. Schwelb: May I argue that for a minute, your
Honor? I think it is important.
The Court: Yes.
Mr. Schwelb: The feeling of the community—
what they think—is relevant to whether free choice
is free or not. It’s not only what happened, but what
their feeling is about certain incidents. If certain
incidents happen and people react to them as in
timidatory, whatever their actual motivation might
have been, I think they still would influence free
—2 5 -
choice.
The Court: Well, you have depositions from these
ministers. One of them, if I can recall out of thin
air, was a vote of the congregation; there were
80-odd votes to discharge him from his position and
only 6 or 10 in favor of retaining him. Am I correct
in my recollection?
Mr. Schwelb: That’s correct. And that is very
near Gold Sand School, and Gold Sand School has
no Negroes in it.
The Court: Now, he has already testified to that.
It’s under oath. Frankly, what this man thinks is
the reason for his having been discharged may be
1271a
a correct supposition, or it may miss the mark a
mile. Frankly, I’m not sure that anybody other
than the congregation and the minister knows why
he was discharged. If that appears in the deposi
tions, then it is before the Court.
Mr. Schwelb: Your Honor, may I just say one
more word. I don’t want to press the point beyond
your endurance. But the fact that Frank Wood was
fired would not be relevant to the question of whether
free choice is free unless it has an impact on the
subjective state of mind of the Negroes who had
—26—
to make the choice. It is really their state of mind
to which I am driving. I think that’s about all I
have to say; that Negroes have to feel free.
I think you will find if you read the K e lly v. N ash
ville case in the Sixth Circuit, which is the first one
that put some question as to whether or not free
choice is appropriate in all circumstances. It says
maybe they don’t want to go there because of fear of
mistreatment or fear of dire consequences. When
it turns out that that is shown, then some other way-
ought to be found rather than a system where the
choice is going to depend on—
The Court: Well, of course, you run into a very
grave danger there. A minister, any minister, might
be fired from his position for reasons, let us say,
of morality, but there could be certain elements in
the community that might attribute the fact that he
was fired to the fact that he had testified, for in
stance, in a civil rights case, which could miss the
mark a mile. Now, is that fact then going to in
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
1272a
dicate that freedom of choice is not workable in the
community?
—27—
Mr. Schwelb: I would like to answer that on two
levels, your Honor, If somebody was proven defi
nitely fired because of civil rights activity, that
definitely proves freedom of choice is not working.
If half of the community thinks somebody was, then
that is a significant impediment even if they happen
to be wrong. But let me say in this case, your Honor,
I think the proof is pretty strong that that is right.
The Court: I understand from reading the depo
sition that the minister himself attributed the fact
that he was discharged as a result of a congrega
tional meeting at which the vote was taken to the
fact that he did. So I think that you’ve got definite,
competent evidence. But what this witness may think
about it, I don’t know that it is very impelling. How
ever, I am going to let him say what he thinks. Let
him put it in the record. Propound your question
and let him answer it.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. What do you think caused the termination of Rever
end Latham and Reverend Wood in Franklin County?
Mr. Davis: Objection.
The Court: I understand.
—28—
A. I think they were discharged because of the activity
which they took in the civil rights progress in the school
case.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
1273a
Q. Now, Reverend Coppedge, do you know Wiley Davis?
A, Yes, sir, I do.
Q. And who is Wiley Davis’ brother? A. James Davis.
Q. And what race are Wiley Davis and James Davis!
A. Negro.
Q. And where do Janies Davis’ school-aged children go
to school? A. Louisburg High School.
Q, In the last part of May, do you know of any incident
that happened to Wiley Davis ?
Mr. Yarborough: We object.
The Court: Overruled.
A. Well, his home was shot into.
Q. How far does James Davis live from Wiley Davis?
A. About 150 yards.
Q. Have you seen any evidence of the shots yourself?
A. Yes, I went there, sir.
Q. Do you take The Franklin Times? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you read articles in The Franklin Times about
desegregation difficulties the Franklinton School Board had
- 2 9 -
in the last year?
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
The Court: Overruled.
Mr. Schwelb: I wonder if I might approach the
witness, your Honor, and show him some exhibits?
The Court: Yes, sir.
Mr. Yarborough: Your Honor, may I inquire
whether this pertains to the Franklin County Ad
ministrative Unit or some other administrative unit?
Mr. Schwelb: It pertains to Franklin County
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
1274a
Board about the Franklinton Unit which is in
Franklin County.
The Court: All right, sir.
Mr. Tucker: It is a separate unit, your Honor.
The Court: Does it relate to units in Franklin
County?
Mr. Tucker: No, sir.
Mr. Schwelb: Well, the Franklinton schools are
in Franklin County. They are separate units, but
they are reported in the press, your Honor.
The Court: All right. Objection overruled.
—30—
By Mr. Schwelb:
Q. Would you read the headline of the clipping of Sep
tember 8, 1966?
Mr. Yarborough: Object, sir.
The Court: Overruled.
A. (Beading) “Franklinton Board votes No.”
Q. Would you read the headline of December 1, 1966?
A. (Beading) “Franklinton Bus Use Suspended, Lifted
Following KKK Threats.”
Mr. Schwelb: May it please the Court, I would
like to observe that we have prepared a notebook
for your Honor with all of these clippings in, and
all of these exhibits. These are just a couple of
examples.
Q. Now, is it true generally that The Franklin Times
printed a lot of information about community opposition
to further desegregation in Franklinton?
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
1275a
Mr. Tucker: Objection.
The Court: Overruled.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is Franklinton in Franklin County? A. It is, sir.
Q. Let me ask you one independent question. Do you
remember when you first met me, approximately? A. It’s
been a year or two ago.
—31—
Q. Well, do you remember meeting me shortly before
the hearing last year on the Interim Order? A. Yes, sir,
I remember that.
Q. Do you remember making a complaint to me with
regard to anything that happened at the Health Center ?
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
Mr. Schwelb: I think the next question or two
will clarify what we are driving at, your Honor.
The Court: Now, what difference does it make
whether he made them to you or not? Do you want
to ask him something about the Health Center?
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Was there something at the Health Center that you
wanted to bring to my attention ?
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
The Court: Go ahead and answer it.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you bring to my attention? A. There were
two signs in there, one for colored and one for white, where
you use the bathroom and drinking fountain.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
1276a
Q. And that was shortly before the Interim Order of last
year?
Transcript of Trial—July 33-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppeclge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
—82—
The Court: Overruled.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that was at the County Health Department? A.
Yes, sir.
The Court: Well, the County Health Department?
Mr. Schwelb: Yes, sir. The purpose of the proof,
your Honor, is to show a policy of segregation which
continued even as late as 1966, twelve years after
the—
The Court: The segregation in the Health Depart
ment?
Mr. Schwelb: Yes. sir. I mean it’s the general
County policy of maintaining segregation and not
complying with the desegregation requirements.
Mr. Yarborough: We object to that statement.
The Court: I understand. Well, the objections are
all in the record. The Court will consider such por
tions as it thinks are competent. Go ahead. Now,
there is no allegation about relevancy between this
school case and the Health Department, is there?
Mr. Schwelb: Well, only to this extent, your
Honor: that if life in general is segregated and if
- 3 3 -
public agencies as late as 1966 still have segregated
signs, that is to some degree, although not as high
a degree as shooting into homes. It is some degree
of an atmospheric inhibition.
1277a
The Court: Is there anything this Court can do
in this suit about the Health Department!
Mr. Schwelb: Well, I think we can answer that in
the next question.
Q. Have the signs been taken down? A. Yes, they have.
Mr. Schwelb: No further action on that point is
necessary.
Q. Now, Reverend Coppedge, let me ask you this. Let’s
take Edward Best High School where your son—did your
son attend Edward Best High School last year? A. Yes,
he did.
Q. During the past year, have you had any additional
trouble? A. Yes, I have had telephone threats, and some
thing that sounded like a fire bomb was thrown at our home
one night.
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Wait a minute. You don’t know that of your own
knowledge, do you, that it was a fire bomb? A. No, sir.
—34—
Q. Is that something your wife told you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And she has testified in this case, has she not? A.
Yes, sir.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
The Court: To what date is he testifying now?
Mr. Schwelb: Well, the fire bomb thing he can’t
testify at all to, because he wasn’t there. That hap
pened in March, 1967. It is in Mrs. Coppedge’s tes
1278a
timony. The telephone calls he is referring to were
since the Interim Order, and I think you will find
out when, your Honor, in just a minute.
Q. Now, let me ask you this. Do you recall when the
free choice for next year started in March, 1967! A. Yes,
sir. I think it was in the first of March. It lasted 31 days
I know.
Q. Now, during that general time, did the number of
telephone calls rise or fall!
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
A. They rose.
The Court: Overruled.
Q. Now, describe that to the Court a little bit, will you,
Reverend Coppedge?
—35—
The Court: Was this during the period of the
free choice?
Mr. Schwelb: Free choice and thereafter.
Q. Well, let me ask you this. Before the period of the
free choice, had there been a let-up in those telephone calls ?
A. Yes, it had.
Q. Now, after the free choice period began—
The Court: Now, is this the new freedom of choice
period that was stipulated in the Interim Order you
are talking about ?
Mr. Schwelb: No, your Honor. It’s March, 1967,
the one they took this past spring for next year.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs-—Direct
1279a
The Court: All right, go ahead.
Q. Will you tell us what happened during and after that
free choice period! A. We began receiving more tele
phone calls. Many of the calls they wouldn’t say anything,
and sometimes they would mention Edward Best, and that’s
more or less what was said.
B y the C o u r t :
Q. What do you mean mentioned “Edward Best” ! A.
Well, just called the name of the school.
Q. That’s all! A. Yes, sir.
—36—
Q. Those are the only words that came over the phone!
A. Well, they cursed; called me a black son-of-a-bitch, and
damned me, and stuff like that.
Mr. Davis: We object to his answers.
The Court: Overruled.
B y Mr. S ch w elb :
Q. How often has that happened! Well, how often was
it happening at its peak this year? A. Maybe seven or
eight times a day.
Q. When is the last time you got such a telephone call?
A. Saturday night.
Q. What did this telephone call last Saturday night say?
A. Didn’t say anything.
Q. When you say “ didn’t say anything,” what kind of
telephone call is that ? A. I could hear a breathing in : I
called it annoying.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
1280a
B y the C o u r t:
Q. When you say “last Saturday night,” are you refer
ring to the 22nd of July, 1967! A. Yes, sir.
—37—
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. You move around the Negro community a good deal,
don’t you! A. Yes, sir.
Q. You are a minister! A. Yes, I am.
Q. And you talk with a good many people! A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have discussed desegregation with a great many
people! A. Yes, I have talked about that.
Q. From your knowledge of the community, let me ask
you: how many Negro students were at Edward Best last
year? A. Two.
Q. And what effect, if any, does this small number of
Negro students have no the Negro community?
Mr. Tucker: Objection.
The Court: Overruled.
A. One of the girls who was attending Edward Best went
back to Perry’s.
Q. Well, generally speaking, do the Negroes that you
have talked to or that you know—are they more or less
willing to go to desegregated schools when there is a very
small number of Negroes at that school?
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
—38—
The Court: Well, now, if he knows, I will let
him testify. Go ahead.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—-for Plaintiffs—Direct
1281a
A. The majority tell me that they would go if there were
more Negroes.
Mr. Davis: Objection to what they tell him.
The Court: Objection overruled.
B y M r. S ck w e lb :
Q. And what, if any, effect do you think the intimidating
incidents have had on the number of Negroes who choose
the white schools I
Mr. Davis: Objection.
The Court: Overruled.
A. Well, I think most of them lived with landowners, and
they would rather not go if they were going to be asked
to move. Several told me this personally.
Q. Do you think that the Negroes who live on white
people’s land—do they feel completely free to pick deseg
regated schools?
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
The Court: One question there. Do you have any
depositions now from people who are speaking of
their own knowledge rather than as this witness is,
from hearsay?
Mr. Schwelb: Yes, your Honor, we have a few.
Of course, this is the type of evidence I am getting
from this witness, your Honor, and of course it has
—39—
to be taken for what it’s wTorth, and I don’t offer it
for anything different. It is the same type of testi
mony when in jury cases for change of venue some
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
1282a
body talks about the temper of the community. He
knows the temper of the Negro community.
I might say that the defendants on depositions
asked quite a number of their witnesses whether they
thought the Negro community was free. I think,
frankly, that the results of the free choice and the
facts of the incidents speak loudly by themselves.
The Court: All right, go ahead.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
A. But generally speaking, do you believe that the Negro
people, particularly those who live on other people’s land,
feel free to choose white schools?
Mr. Davis: Objection.
The Court: Overruled.
A. I don’t think they feel free.
Q. Now, Reverend Coppedge, have you tried to make
free choice work? A. Yes, I have.
Q. Have you done your best? A. Yes, I have done my
best.
- 4 0 —
Q. Do you think it has worked?
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
The Court: Overruled.
A. It hasn’t resulted in integration.
Q. Let me ask you whether there are any Negro teachers
at Edward Best High School? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you think that has made a difference?
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
1283a
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
The Court: Overruled.
A. I think so.
Q. Do you know whether Negro students are bussed
from Epsom to the Riverside school?
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
The Court: Overruled.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And if you know—did you know that Epsom only
has 72 high school students? A. No, I didn’t know that,
sir.
Q. Well, you know it’s a very small high school.
Mr. Yarborough: Objection to leading.
The Court: Overruled.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Do you know whether or not it is a small high school?
I apologize for leading. A. Well, all I have seen is the
—4 1 -
building. I have never been on the inside.
Q. Now, do you think Riverside has plenty of space, or
is fairly crowded from what you have seen?
The Court: Well, now, isn’t that a matter outside
this man’s competence?
Mr. Schwelb: Well, your Honor, let me ask the
question a different way.
Q. Have you seen any new structures at Riverside High
School since last year? A. Yes. There are mobile units
there.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
1284a
Q. Now, let’s take Riverside and Louisburg. Which has
more acres in size, if you know?
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
The Court: Overruled.
A. I don’t know about the particular size.
Q. If Negro students living in the Epsom area were to
go to the Epsom High School and the school was thereby
integrated, what effect would that have on other Negroes’
feeling about their willingness to choose desegregated
schools?
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
The Court: I am going to let him testify. Over
ruled.
A. I feel like they would think the schools are open to
make a free choice.
—42—
Q. Now, let me ask you one last question, Reverend Cop
pedge. When you made your choice for your son, did you
feel you were making it between a white school and a Ne
gro school?
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
The Court: Overruled.
A. I just thought I was given the opportunity to choose
freely.
Q. What kind of school do you and the people in the
community think of Edward Best as; what kind of school?
A. It’s all right.
1285a
Q. Well, do people call it a green school, a purple school,
a white school, or what!
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
A. They call it a white school.
Q. And what do they call Perry’s school? A. A Negro
school.
Q. And what is the composition of the faculty at Edward
Best? A. White.
Q. And at Perry’s? A. Negro.
Q. And that’s a free choice that has been given; is that
true?
Transcript of Trial— July 23-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
—43—
The Court: Overruled.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. The choice that has been given is between a white
school and a Negro school, is that true, in the understand
ing of the community? A. Oh, yes.
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
The Court: Overruled.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Now, do you think free choice has worked under those
circumstances? A. I don’t think it has worked, sir.
Mr. Schwelb: Your Honor, I have no further
questions of this witness.
1286a
B y the C o u r t :
Q. Do I understand you to say that the Edward Best
faculty is all white? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what was the other school that you just referred
to? A. Perry’s High School.
Q. And you say the faculty there is all Negro? A. Yes,
sir.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Direct
The Court: All right, sir.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, may I ask one ques
tion?
—44—
The Court: Yes, sir.
D irec t E xa m in a tion hy M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Reverend Coppedge, other than the freedom of choice
period that has been conducted by the Franklin County
Board of Education, to your knowledge has anything else
been done by the Board to desegregate the school system?
A. The Attorney of the School Board—
Q. I ’m not talking about the freedom of choice. I ’m say
ing “other than.” A. Other than freedom of choice, no,
sir.
Q. You don’t know of anything else that has been done?
A. No, sir.
Mr. Yarborough: I object to that.
Mr. Chambers: That is all.
1287a
C ross E xa m in a tion b y M r. Y a rb o ro u g h :
Q. Mr. Coppedge, there are white teachers teaching at
predominantly colored schools of Franklin County, aren’t
there? A. Well, there is one white teacher at Riverside
—15—■
and one librarian.
Q. There are two white teachers at Riverside? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Bather, there were for this past year. And there was
a colored member of the faculty at the Louisburg school
this past year? A. One librarian there.
Q. And one at the Bunn school, wasn’t there? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. They were on the faculty, weren’t they? A. Yes, I
guess so.
Q. And you spoke about your choice being between Per
ry’s and Edward Best. You read the free choice forms that
came to you last year and this year, didn’t you? A. Yes,
sir, I did, sir.
Q. And I ’ll ask you if they didn’t give you a choice of
every school in the Franklin County Administrative Unit?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You could have chosen Louisburg if you wanted to?
A. That’s right.
Q. And you could have chosen Biverside if you wanted
to? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Bunn? A. Yes, sir.
—46—
Q. So you had a choice of schools in which there were
white and colored members of the faculty if you wanted
to exercise it, didn’t you? A. Well, I didn’t have any
transportation to get to the other schools.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—•for Plaintiffs—Cross
1288a
Q. And did yon read the free choice form which indi
cated that transportation would be provided, if at all pos
sible, or words to that effect? A. You said if a person
chose to go to Youngsville who lived in the Louisburg area,
you would not furnish transportation to go there.
Q. That who said that? That I said it? A. That’s what
you made the announcement as.
Q. Well, that was talking about—you were advised, were
you not, that transportation would be provided within—if
at all reasonable? A. Yes, within reason. And you gave
an illustration of it.
Q. Yes, sir. And so the Board of Education did send
people around, including myself, to meetings explaining
the free choice? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You went to two of them, didn’t you? A. I did, sir.
Q. Edward Best School where your son attended—you
—17—
were there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you attended the Riverside meeting where you
have no children? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You attended that meeting? A. That’s right.
Q. And it was explained fully, the name of the school
you gave? A. Yes, sir.
Q. At those meetings? A. That’s right.
Q. And substantially the same speech or talk was made
at both meetings? A. That’s right.
Q. And they were fairly well attended by both white
and colored people ? Edward Best had— A. Two attended
Edward Best.
Q. Two colored people attended along with white peo
ple? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And there was a good attendance at Riverside of col
ored people? A. Yes, sir.
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Cross
1289a
Q. And that was right at the beginning of the choice
- 4 8 -
period of 1967, wasn’t it? A. That’s right.
Q. And yon understood the choice forms you got when
yon received them? A. Yes, I did, sir.
Q. And you picked the school for your son Harold? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And he has been assigned to the school you chose?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And last summer after the Interim Order, there was
a new freedom of choice to the Negroes of the County,
wasn’t there? A. That’s right.
Q. And you got the literature and the papers on that?
A. Yes.
Q. And you picked the school for your boy? A. Yes, I
did, sir.
Q. And you attended a meeting that Judge Butler here
suggested at Riverside School composed of people recom
mended by counsel and your lawyer in this case Mr. Cham
bers? A. Yes, I was here last year.
Q. And it was all explained there.
Mr. Schwelb: Excuse me. I think there is a mis
understanding. He asked him about a meeting, and
—49—
I don’t think Mr. Coppedge understood the question.
The Court: Well, I don’t know whether he did or
not.
By the Court:
Q. Did you understand or misunderstand any question
that has been asked? A. Well, the last meeting I attended
when you were here was last year.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Cross
1290a
Q. Well, now, are yon talking about here in this court
house? A. Yes, sir.
The Court: All right, you might clarify your ques
tion, Mr. Yarborough.
B y M r. Y a r b o r o u g h :
Q. Mr. Coppedge, what I am talking about is a meeting
which was held in the cafeteria at Riverside School, com
posed of people recommended for that meeting by Mr.
Chambers pursuant to the Judge’s order here. Were you
at that meeting? A. Oh, no, sir, I wasn’t.
Q. You were called, I believe, by Mr. Schwelb that night,
or your wife was, for that meeting, and you were off
preaching at a revival? A. Yes, sir.
— 50—
Q. But you were invited to it? A. Oh, yes.
Q. And you got a letter from the Board of Education
inviting you to that meeting? A. That’s right.
Q. Did your wife go to it? A. Yes, she did.
Q. Now, Mr. Coppedge, you have stated that many people
have told you that they would go to a different school if
there was more integration? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who were some of those people? A. Well, one was
Mrs. Clara Alston.
Q. Where does she live? A. She lives in the Cedar
Rock Community.
Q. Now, when did she tell you this? A. Well, that was
during the free choice period. I think it was in March.
Q. And did you tell he that she had the right to go to
any school that she wanted to go to for whatever reason?
A. Yes, sir, I told her that, sir.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiff's—Cross
1291a
Q. And her reason to yon, then, was that there weren’t
enough colored students at that school1? A. Yes. And
she said rather than to go through all that we had been
through with all that we had been through, she would
—51—
rather not do so.
Q. Well, now, do you know whether she told the Board
of Education anything of that nature! A. I don’t know
about that, sir.
Q. The only person she told that to was to you that you
know of! A. Well, I don’t know the names, more than
one.
Q. Well, did you communicate that information to the
Board of Education or any of its representatives! A. No,
sir.
Q. And you have kept it to yourself until just now! A.
Well, I don’t remember.
Q. What’s that? A. I don’t remember whether I told
it or not.
Q. This is the first time that you remember telling any
body that? A. No. I have mentioned that before.
Q. Is she here today? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know her address? A. It may be Louisburg,
Route 4.
Q. Do you know what school she picked for her children?
A. Perry’s.
Q. Now, who else? Who is someone else—
—52—
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, may I make one
comment here?
The Court: Yes.
Mr. Chambers: It is contended here by the Plain
tiffs and, as I understand, the Plaintiff-Intervenor,
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Cross
1292a
that the Negro parents of Franklin County have
been afraid to exercise a choice under the freedom
of choice period, and have been afraid to advance
to try to exercise rights as declared by the Court to
attend integrated schools.
Now, in some of the depositions that have been
taken here, some of the witnesses have testified that
they have discussed certain matters with parties. And
for the type of questioning here that is now pro
pounded by counsel for the Defendants, to put the
witness on the spot with respect to certain names—
and I call the Court’s attention to the deposition of
Mrs. Coppedge. At that time it was specifically
agreed, I thought, that although the party was named
by the witness, that this party would not be called
and that the confidence of the witness testifying—
in this case, Mrs. Coppedge—would not be breached.
Yet, this person that was named by Mrs. Coppedge
—53—
was brought to deposition by counsel for the De
fendant. And we fear here that this same type of
thing might be pursued. The witness having told
Mr. Coppedge, and it is our contention that the per
son that has been conferring with Reverend Cop
pedge would be afraid to transfer to the school,
would certainly be put under pressure now; that
the person is going to be subjected to further prob
lems even to appearing here in Court. And if
there is some kind of instruction that the Court
might give that would allow some protection for the
parties that are named or might be named by Rever
end Coppedge, we would respectfully request it. Re-
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Cross
1293a
cause it would only jeopardize the persons who would
be named.
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor please, may I
state in response to that: that at a pre-trial con
ference with Judge Harvey here, in discussing this
matter with him, we told Judge Harvey that the
only way we could meet a broad, sweeping generali
zation that all the colored people in the County were
afraid was to bring the parties, the colored citizen
ship to court. He said, “No. Bring a representative
group of each of the areas.” At the depositions in
Louisburg, we brought a total, I think, of 26 in the
—5 4 -
general areas of three schools. It was stipulated that
we would bring a corresponding number of people
from the areas of the other schools—that is in the
stipulation—all of whom testified they made an
uninhibited free choice.
Now, certainly we want to disabuse Mr. Chambers’
or anybody else’s mind that the Board of Education
might at any time attempt to intimidate anybody.
Now, the instance that he spoke of that Mrs. Cop
pedge named a school teacher, I told her there if
she had rather not, I would not insist, that I didn’t
want to embarrass her or to betray a confidence.
She did name this teacher, and the teacher went on
the stand under oath and contradicted what Mrs.
Coppedge had said. That’s all in the record.
Now, if your Honor pleases, the Board of Educa
tion, I want to state to the world, is not going out—
has not attempted to abuse anybody. We have tried
diligently to make the free choice work. If there are
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge— for Plaintiffs—Gross
1294a
people who want to go to one school and for any
reason have not made a free choice, if somebody
would tell the Board of Education, I asure you they
would again offer that person an opportunity to
exercise a free choice. The Board of Education or
—55—
any representative of it is certainly not going to
intimidate or abuse any living soul on God’s earth.
I want the world to know that. Mrs. Suitt, the
teacher, made a very fine impression; she told it as
she saw it.
I say this: that I don’t want to embarrass Mr.
Coppedge about anything that was told him in a
ministerial capacity. I am the last person on earth
who would want him to betray it. But in a case of
this kind where these broad statements have not
validated a majority saying that they would go if
more Negroes were in these schools—if that is the
situation, then I think the County Board of Educa
tion ought to know it and not have to find it out
here in Court when Mr. Coppedge has known it
since last March. I don’t know what else the Board
could do other than bring part of them in, except to
ask the Court’s permission to bring the body of
the citizenship of the County. Because there has
been no trouble in any numbers of them. We under
took to get a representative group from each area as
Judge Harvey suggested, and we thought it was stip
ulated at the same time as to these other schools. I
—56—
don’t know what else—
The Court: Well, let me interject this comment.
T have listened to a lot of hearsay evidence here
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Cross
1295a
today upon the theory that what was being said in
the community would have some relevance in this
hearing. Now, when on cross examination counsel
asks the sources of some of the hearsay and the
source is given, for this Court to say to counsel that
they cannot investigate or talk with any of the people
who are designated and asserted as the source of
the hearsay would be to put an insurmountable ob
stacle in the path of truth, and this Court cannot do
that and will not do that, but it will say this: that
if there are any threats or fears or intimidation
exercised by anyone upon those witnesses or any
other witness, that matter need only be brought to
the attention of the Court.
All right, you may proceed.
Mr. Schwelb: Your Honor, may I make just one
comment1? It is not directly in relation to your
Order, but I just want to say that I think Mr. Yar
borough characterized certain testimony as descrip
tive of what has taken place, and I did want to say
—57—
that the Government does not agree with that char
acterization. We don’t think that witnesses said
what he said they said, and we don’t think Mrs.
Suitt said what he said she said. I am not accusing
him of being untruthful, but he is putting a con
struction on it which I think is not borne out by read
ing the depositions themselves.
Mr. Yarborough: Well, the depositions speak for
themselves.
The Court: All right, you may proceed, Mr. Yar
borough.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Cross
1296a
B y M r. Y a rb o ro u g h :
Q. Mr. Coppedge, who else other than Mrs. Alston was
one of those? A. Alice Clanton who attended—
Q. A child? A. Yes, sir, who attended Edward Best this
year.
Q. Now, she testified in this ease in Louisburg, did she
not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right, sir. Who else? A. I can’t recall another
one’s name right now.
Q. And those two names are the only people yon can
recall? A. That’s all I can recall.
—58—
Q. Who are some of the several people that yon say told
you they were afraid that they would be made to move if
they exercised a free choice of schools? A. Well, I can’t
call the names right now, sir.
Q. No names at all? A. No, sir.
Mr. Schwelb: Bid he say that? I don’t recall his
saying that.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Did you testify that somebody" had told you that they
had been made to move?
Mr. Yarborough: I don’t believe I phrased it
that way. Afraid they would be made to move.
A. Afraid to.
B y M r. Y a rb o ro u g h :
Q. You cannot recall those names right now, Mr. Cop
pedge? A. No, sir.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Cross
1297a
Q. Mr, Coppedge, yon have been into and testified about
a minister’s relation to his church and about the publica
tion by the Franklin Times in the press. Mr. Woods and
Mr. Latham both are ministers of Baptist churches? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And I believe you are of the Baptist persuasion also?
—59—
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they are congregational churches, or the congre
gations control the churches? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Independent of any control by any other ecclesiastical
authority? A. That’s right, sir.
Q. Now, you spoke about Mrs. Katie Perry, that you had
heard about something that had happened to her. She
has a daughter named Miss Willie Perry, hasn’t she? A.
I don’t know her daughter’s name. I know her.
Q. Know who? A. Mrs. Perry. I don’t know her daugh
ter.
Q. She doesn’t have any children in school, does she?
A. I don’t think so.
Q. You don’t know her that well, then, to say whether
she has a daughter named Miss Willie Perry who lives with
her or not, do you? A. I don’t, sir.
Q. You do not know whether Mrs. Katie Perry has any
children in school ? A. I do not, sir.
Q. In the free choice period of last August you picked
exactly the school you wan ted your son Harold to go to?
— 60—
A. Yes, I had done so previously.
Q. And you did it again when this Court required another
free choice period about the first of August? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And in the free choice period of March, 1967, you
Transcript of Trial—July 2S-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge— f o r Plaintiffs—Cross
1298a
chose exactly the school you wanted your son Harold to
go to? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you received some phone calls during that period,
you say? A. Yes, I did, sir.
Q. And in spite of the phone calls, you exercised exactly
the choice you wanted, free choice, for your son? A. Well,
actually if I had known that you would bus the children
wherever they would like to go to school—that’s the first
I have heard that you would do that, today.
Q. I’m talking about didn’t you exercise exactly the choice
you wanted at that time from the information you under
stood? A. At that time, yes, sir.
Q. And you say you got a telephone call last Saturday
night, but just your phone rang and somebody breathed?
A. Yes, sir.
— 61—
Q. Do you have any idea who it was? A. I do not, sir.
Q. Have you any idea who made any of these calls
recently since the Interim Order? A. No, sir, not recently.
Q. As I understood, his Honor was interested in some
things since your last testimony. Have you ever reported
any names to any investigating officers of any persons who
called you or threatenened you or did anything to you? A.
Well, I didn’t see them on the telephone.
Q. I say have you ever reported any names to any offi
cers? A. I can’t recall.
Mr. Chambers: May I speak to your Honor? I
understood Mr. Yarborough to say that the Court
had limited the testimony to the period of time since
Eeverend Coppedge had previously testified.
Mr. Yarborough: No, sir, that is not what I in
tended to say. I gathered in response to any earlier
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Cross
1299a
inquiry by me that the things that were covered by
the depositions his Honor didn’t desire to go back
into them at this hearing. I understood that it was
because it would be pointless in having this deposi
tion in if we go over it.
The Court: Well, I cannot be certain what is in
—62—
all the depositions, but I see no point in repeating
here from the stand what has been covered by the
same witness in his deposition.
Mr. Yarborough: That was my understanding.
The Court: Now, if there is any question in the
mind of counsel as to whether or not a certain matter
has been covered by the deposition, I will permit the
witness to go over it again.
B y the C o u r t:
Q. I understand you to say you have never reported
any names to any persons to anybody with respect to any
threats or calls or intimidation or coercion'? A. Not that
I can recall, sir.
B y M r. Y a rb orou g h :
Q. And every incident you reported to the officers have
been investigated both by the County, State, and Federal
officers, haven’t they? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That’s right, isn’t it? The sheriff’s corps and the
SBI and FBI have all been out to your house at one time
or another investigating incidents, haven’t they? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And your wife testified in Louisburg in the deposition
hearings on April 27, I believe, didn’t she? A. I think it
was something like that.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—-for Plaintiffs—Cross
1300a
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiff's—Cross
—63—
Q. You were there once or twice yourself at those hear
ings? A. I wasn’t there the day she was there.
Q. But you knew they were going on? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you stopped by the Board of Education office
where they were held a time or two? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Mr. Coppedge, did you know that Mrs. Katie Perry’s
daughter, Miss Willie Perry, testified in behalf of the de
fendant Board of Education? A. I don’t know, sir.
Q. Do you know where Mrs. Katie Perry lives? A. Yes,
sir, almost.
Q. You say “ almost” ? A. Yes, sir. She lives in the
Cedar Street Community.
Q. Now, Mr. Wiley Davis—how far does he live from
you? A. He lives about 14 miles from my house.
Q. On the other side of Louisburg from you, is that
right? A. He lives from Louisburg about four miles.
Q. I say on the other side of Louisburg from you? A.
Yes, sir.
—64—
Q. And he does not have any children at all in school? A.
He has a granddaughter.
Q. In school? A. I think so.
Q. And what school does that granddaughter go to? A.
Riverside.
Q. Does the granddaughter live with him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And goes to Riverside school? A. That’s right.
Q. Of course, you don’t know what was the instance, of
your own knowledge, of anybody shooting at his house?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. Did jmu know that some time ago Wiley Davis was
involved in a charge of Afiolating the Federal laws regard
ing Avhiskey? A. No, sir, I do not know about that.
1301a
Q. You have never heard that? A. No, sir, I haven’t.
Q. Now, you spoke about Mr. J. C. Fogg? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you know that he had been involved in difficulty
with the law in recent years? A. No, I do not know.
—65—
Q. In matters not related to school matters? A. No,
sir, not that I know about.
Q. You don’t know either way, then, do you? A. All I
know is he has children that are in school now.
Q. You do know that these children got exactly the school
he applied for for them, didn’t they? A. This year. They
were rejected in ’65.
Q. When? A. They were rejected in ’65 when my son
was rejected.
Q. That was on the lateral transfer of four grades,
wasn’t it? A. That’s right.
Q. And the freedom of choice wasn’t open for all grades
that year, was it? A. No, sir.
Q. And he didn’t have children in the proper grade of
the four grades in which freedom of choice was allowed that
year, did he? A. That’s right.
Q. And you didn’t either for that year? A. No, sir.
Q. And for the ’66-67 school year the freedom of choice
was open in all grades for all schools? A. Yes, sir.
— 66—
Q. And for the ’67-68 school year they had a freedom of
choice open for all grades in all schools in March of this
year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know of any person, either white or Negro,
in Franklin County for the ’66-67 school year or the ’67-68
school year who has applied for a school and had applica
tion rejected? A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. White or Negro? A. No, I do not.
Transcript of Trial—July 2S-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Cross
1302a
Q. Now, Mr. Coppedge, on the telephone calls yon state
that you have received since the entering of the Interim
Order last summer, do you know who made any of those
calls to you? A. No, sir, I do not know who made them.
Q. You testified on direct examination about the Epsom
School. Do you know of any person who has applied for
the Epsom School and did not get it under the free choice
plan? A. No, I do not.
Q. Now, Mr. Coppedge, can you name the names of all
of the colored children in the Franklin County Administra
tive School Unit who attended predominantly white schools
— 67—
for the past year? A. I don’t think I can name all of
them.
Q. And do you know how many of those who attended
the schools, predominantly white schools, under the free
dom of choice for the 1966-67 school year have made a
choice to go back to the same schools for the ’67-68 school
year ? A. I do not know exactly how many.
Q. Do you know of any other than Alice Clanton who did
not go back except those who have graduated or moved
away? A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. So far as you know, then, all who chose those schools
for the ’66-67 school year have chosen to return to those
schools for the ’67-68 school year under the free choice
plan except Alice Clanton and those who have graduated or
moved out of the County? A. That’s right as far as I
know, sir.
Q. Now, Mr. Coppedge, you know that the Franklin
County Board of Education operates the program in schools
that qualify under the Federal regulations by which meals
are provided at a greatly reduced price? A. Yes, I think
so.
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Cross
1303a
Q. Do you know that the only schools that qualify are
Riverside, Cedar Street, Youngsville Elementary School,
Gethsemane School and Perry’s School?
Mr. Chambers: I object to that question.
A. I don’t know, sir.
— 68—
The Court: Overruled.
Transcript o f Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Cross
A. I don’t know whether or not those schools—
Q. You do know those schools qualify, don’t you? A.
I don’t know about that.
Q. You know that Perry’s qualifies? Don’t you? A. I
can’t answer that, because all I know I have to pay thirty
cents a day for my son’s dinner.
Q. And that’s the same price that every other student
at Edward Best that eats a meal pays? A. That’s right,
I think so.
Q. Do you know that at certain other schools the children
pay only ten cents for a meal? A. I heard that was the
case at Gethsemane.
Q. How about Riverside School? A. I hadn’t heard of
that.
Q. Or Perry’s? A. I don’t know about Perry’s.
Q. Mr. Coppedge, in the last two or three years since
you have been interested in this matter, you have met
numbers of times with the Board of Education? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And have met with representatives of them in Wash
ington and other places? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you have attended meetings conducted by the
1304a
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Cross
— 69-
Boarcl of Education or its representatives regarding free
choice; that’s right, isn’t it? A. I have attended about
three or four.
Q. Three or four meetings conducted by the County
Board of Education? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And I ’ll ask you if the Board of Education in each
of those meetings that you have attended haven’t explained
the free choice and offered it to every school child in the
County; that’s correct, isn’t it? A. Yes, after the first
year.
Q, After the first year. So when the County Board of
Education went under the free choice plan for all grades' in
all schools, it offered every child in the County at these
meetings you attended an opportunity to make a free choice
of schools? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have they done anything to discourage exercise of
free choice?
Mr. Chambers: Objection to that, your Honor.
That calls for a conclusion on the part of the witness.
The Court: We have been having conclusions
ever since we opened up this morning. Overruled.
Mr. Yarborough: I will withdraw that question.
— 70—
Q. Mr. Coppedge, the meetings that you have attended,
certainly two meetings, PTA meetings, the statement was
made that all the child or parent had to do was name the
school and they would get it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And those very words, or substantially those words,
were used and repeated several times? A. That’s right.
Q. And every question raised from the floor a representa
tive of the Board of Education attempted to answer it,
1305a
didn’t they1? A. I think there was a question asked about
the teachers as to whether the teachers had been encouraged
to—
Q. Had been what1? A. Had been encouraged to de
segregate as the Court Interim Order stated.
Q. Well, you—
Mr. Schwelb: May he finish his answer?
The Court: Yes.
A. (Continuing) There was a question asked during the
meeting had the teachers been encouraged to desegregate
the faculty in that meeting, and you said a meeting would
be called later on that, and I didn’t hear any encouraging
—71—
remarks pertaining to it.
Q. Well, was there a meeting called later? A. I didn’t
hear of the calling of the meeting.
Q. I say was there one? Do you know whether or not
a meeting was called later? A. I heard there was one.
Q. Did you attend that meeting? A. No, sir.
Q. The meeting you heard about was attended by every
school teacher in the Franklin County school system, white
and Negro, wasn’t it.
Mr. Schwelb: Your Honor, he has testified he
wasn’t there.
Mr. Yarborough: I ’m just asking him if he heard
about it.
The Court: Overruled.
A. I only heard one teacher say she attended it. I didn’t
hear her, but—
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Cross
1306a
Q. You heard it was attended by all? A. Well, I heard
one—
Q. What teacher did yon hear about it from? A. Mrs.
Suitt whose name my wife gave.
Q. Mrs. Sadie Suitt? A. She said she attended.
Q. Where was she when she told you about that meet-
—72—
ing? A. Well, she told my wife.
Q. Did she tell you? A. No, sir, she didn’t tell me.
Q. Did you know that Mrs. Suitt testified as a witness
for the defendants in this case at the deposition hearings
in Louisburg? A. To my knowledge, I don’t know that.
Q. And that’s the only teacher you have heard mention
this matter? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And so the anwser that was given at this PTA meet
ing you were attending, in response to encouraging the
teachers, was that the Board would meet with all of the
teachers pursuant to the Judge’s Order at a later date;
that’s right, isn’t it? A. Yes, I think that’s right.
Q. And so far as you know, they did have a meeting.
A. That’s right. I heard they had a meeting.
Q. And there were some colored and white teachers for
some of the schools in the County this past year? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And you don’t know about the coming year? A. No,
sir.
Q. Now, Mr. Coppedge, since the Interim Order of this
Court last July, your name hasn’t been published in the
- 7 3 -
paper in connection with this case, has it? A. I think so.
Q. Other than in the title of the case? A. Well, maybe
not.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Cross
1307a
Q. Your boy’s name and your name appears as first
party plaintiff in this case, doesn’t it! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the Franklin Times hasn’t published anything
about you, derogatory to you, certainly since the Interim
Order, has it, that you would consider derogatory or unjust
to you? A. Well, I think that my name was directed to as
leading this in the paper.
Q. When was that? A. Since the Interim Order.
Q. What do you mean by your name was directed as
leading? It’s the first name in the action, isn’t it, your
boy’s name and you as his next friend? A. Yes, I know
my name was in the paper.
Q. Well, your lawyer put the names, submitted the list
of names, didn’t he?
Mr. Chambers: Objection, your Honor. I don’t
see how that could be material at this stage.
The Court: Let me try to clear this up.
—74—
B y the C o u r t:
Q. Mr. Coppedge, have you read any news item in any
paper since the Interim Order, in July, I believe it was, of
last year that made any reference to you other than your
name appearing in the title to this cause ? A. I don’t think
I can remember other than being a part of this case.
Q. Well, now, I do not understand what you mean by
that. Did any news item refer to you in any other capacity
other than as a party to this proceeding? This proceeding
is entitled “Harold W. Coppedge . . .” Now, that’s your
son? A. Yes, sir.
Q. “And others, Plaintiff” ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And “ The United States of America, by Ramsey
Clark, Attorney General, Plaintiff-Intervenor, against the
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Cross
1308a
Franklin County Board of Education, and others, Defend
ants.” Now, has your name appeared or your son’s name
appeared in any newspaper at any time to your knowledge
other than as a plaintiff in this suit? Do you understand
that question? A. I don’t think so, sir.
The Court: All right, go ahead to something else.
—75—
B y M r. Y a rb o ro u g h :
Q. Mr. Coppedge, did I understand you to testify that
since the Interim Order of last August that you received
six or eight telephone calls every day? A. Not every day,
no, sir.
Q. And that during the free choice period you received
ten or fifteen every day; is that what you testified to? A.
Every day for how long?
Q. Well, during the choice period. A. Well, not the
same number every day.
Q. Well, what did you testify to about that then? A.
Well, when the freedom of choice period first opened, the
telephone calks increased, and I am certain that we re
ceived ten or fifteen calls some of the days, not every day
—not the same number every day.
Q. Now, can you name a single name of anybody who
called you during the freedom of choice period of March
of 1967 ? A. I don’t know the voice.
Q. Beg your pardon. A. I don’t know who it was calling
over the telephone.
Q. Do you think you know wTho it was? A. No, sir.
—76—
Mr. Schwelb: He has asked this series of ques
tions at least four times, your Honor.
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Cross
1309a
Mr. Yarborough: I don’t recall having asked him
any times. Of course, your Honor will recall.
The Court: I don’t recall Mr. Yarborough’s hav
ing gone into the number of calls.
Mr. Schwelb: But he said, “Who did it?” And
“When did you report it?”
Mr. Yarborough: Well, that was last year. I ’m
talking about this year.
The Court: All right.
B y M r. Y a rb o ro u g h :
Q. So you made the exact choice—in spite of those calls,
you picked the school you wanted your son to go to with
information available to you at that time! A. Yes, sir,
with the information available to me.
Q. The calls did not influence you either way! A. Well,
yes, sir, it made me more fearful.
Q. Well, but did it influence you in making a choice! A.
I still made a choice.
Q. You still made the choice and got exactly the school
you wanted your boy to go to! A. Yes, sir.
Q. So in spite of any fear you might have had, you chose
the school of your choice? A. Yes, sir.
—77—
Q. Mr. Coppedge, you have been active in this proceed
ing for three or four years, haven’t you! A. In the school?
Q. In the school matter, yes, sir. A. Since ’65.
Q. And you brought this lawsuit and made your first
complaint because your boy for the ’65-66 was not assigned
to Edward Best School; that’s right, isn’t it? A. That’s
right.
Q. And the reason he wasn’t assigned, or the reason
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Cross
1310a
given to you why he wasn’t assigned was that he was not
in the four grades of the lateral transfer? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you came over to court on that matter over here
in Raleigh, didn’t you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the Court did not order your boy into the Edward
Best School for that year, did it? A. No, sir.
Q. And so since that time for the ’66-67 school year
when it was open to all grades, he has gone to the school
that he has wanted to go to; that’s correct, isn’t it? A.
With the transportation that was offered.
—78—
Q. I say with the information then available to you about
the transportation. And he has been assigned pursuant to
your free choice request or indication to the school he wants
to go to for next year from information available to you
at that time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So the suit in which your boy is plaintiff and you act
as his next friend was to integrate or to make the choice
available to all twelve grades, isn’t it?
Mr. Chambers: We object to that too, your
Honor.
The Court: Well, I think the suit will speak for
itself.
Mr. Yarborough: Well, if your Honor please, I
just wanted to show that he brought the suit for one
purpose and that has certainly been settled and is
moot insofar as that matter is concerned now.
The Court: Well, I think it will speak for itself as
to what the suit encompassed.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Cross
1311a
B y M r. Y a rb o ro u g h :
Q. Well, now, Frances Noreen Driver and Jacqueline
Rose Driver, Booker T. Driver, Jr., and Jesse L. Driver
joined in this suit by their next friend Booker T. Driver;
that’s correct, isn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
—79—
Q. And they for this past school year went to the school
of their choice, didn’t they? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Or the Bunn School? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And so far as you know, they have been assigned to
the school they requested for the coming school year?
Mr. Schwelb: Your Honor, I think if it will
shorten this case at all, we are prepared to concede
that every person, Negro, who filled out a choice to
go to a white school was permitted to go there. That
is not an issue in this case.
Mr. Yarborough: Well, if your Honor please, I
feel like we might like for the record to show by
the names of each of the original plaintiff’s—
The Court: Well, does not the record include the
names of all plaintiffs?
Mr. Yarborough: Well, yes, but I wanted—
The Court: There is a stipulation that all of them
now have been assigned to the schools of their choice.
Doesn’t that take care of the record?
Mr. Yarborough: That’s perfectly all right. That’s
what I wanted. I didn’t understand Mr. Schwelb to
—8 0 -
say that.
Mr. Schwelb: The stipulation is that if they ap
plied to the white school, they were allowed to go
there. I think Mr. Chambers would agree to that.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Cross
1312a
Mr. Chambers: We will agree to that.
The Court: Well, do you know whether they all
applied or not?
Mr. Schwelb: I don’t know that, but if he gives
me the names of those who applied—
Mr. Yarborough: Well, I can read you all the
names. I don’t want to clutter up the record either,
sir.
The Court: Well, if you can cover it by stipula
tion, that is always good. If you can’t, we will have
to get it from the stand. I don’t know what the facts
are.
Mr. Yarborough: Well, I would be willing, sir,
to stipulate now that all of the plaintiffs are in the
school of their choice for the ’66-67 school year, and
that each of those schools is a predominantly white
school.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, we would stipulate
that each of the plaintiffs has been assigned to the
school that they indicated for the 1966-67 school year
—81—
and the 1967-68 school year.
Mr. Yarborough: We wanted to show, sir—I don’t
know about this witness—
Mr. Chambers: I don’t see how this witness can
really show that it was the school of their choice.
Mr. Yarborough: If he knows—
The Court: Now, do I understand you to say, Mr.
Chambers, that the plaintiffs will stipulate that all
of the plaintiffs have been assigned during the
school year 1966-67 and the school year 1967-68 to
the schools to which they have applied ?
Mr. Chambers: That’s correct, your Honor.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Cross
1313a
The Court: Now, you offer to stipulate that all
of them have been assigned to white schools!
Mr. Yarborough: And that all of the schools to
which they aplied were predominantly white.
The Court: Now, can you go that far?
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, I know that some of
the plaintiffs have been assigned to predominantly
white schools, but I don’t know that all of them
have.
The Court: Does anybody in the courthouse know
the answer to that ?
—82—
Mr. Yarborough: 1 think we can poll mighty
quickly, your Honor. Most of the parents are here.
The Court: Well, it looks like we can’t stipulate
for the simple reason that counsel doesn’t know the
answer. So see if you can get that from this witness
if he knows.
B y M r. Y a rb o ro u g h :
Q. All right, sir, now, Mr. Coppedge, Charles Grill,
Martha Gill, and James Gill are children of Otis Gill, aren’t
they? A, Yes, I think so. I don’t know all of the children
by name.
Q. Well, do you know that they went to the Louisburg
School for the ’66-67 school year? A. Yes, his children
went to Louisburg.
Q. His children did? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Every one that was of school age so far as you know?
A. Yes, sir.
The Court: Excuse me, Mr. Yarborough. Let’s
see if I can shorten this.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Gross
1314a
B y th e C o u r t:
Q. Do you know the names of the plaintiffs in this suit?
—83—
Do you know who joined in with you and your child in
bringing this suit? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know whether or not all of those children
have been admitted to white schools, that is, predominantly
white schools, schools which formerly were white? A.
Those who didn’t change their minds. A few changed their
minds.
Q. Well, you are saying now that some of them do not
attend predominantly white schools? A. Some of them
who first began.
The Court: Now, that’s the testimony of this wit
ness. Now, if you have any evidence to the contrary,
you may put it on when your opportunity comes to
offer evidence.
Mr. Yarborough: Well, if he doesn’t know, if your
Honor please, I will not pursue that further.
B y M r. Y a rb o ro u g h :
Q. Do you know who changed their minds? A. Yes, sir.
There’s a lady here who is Mrs. Cordell’s granddaughter,
I think, changed her mind.
Q. Mrs. who, now? A. Mrs. Cordell’s.
Q. Do you know what her former name was? I ’m sorry,
I don’t recognize her by that name. A. I don’t remember,
—84—
but she’s here today.
Q. Mrs. Cordell? A. Mrs. Caudle or Cordell. She’s
here.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Cross
1315a
Q. Is it Cogswell? A. Yes, I think that is it.
Q. Mrs. Cogswell’s child or the child to whom she stood
in relation as parent, attended Louisburg School this past
year, didn’t she? A. She didn’t the first year that she
requested, I ’m sure.
Q. Well, this past school year is the first school year the
Board of Education operated the freedom of choice for all
pupils in all grades, isn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And didn’t she attend this past year? A. I do not
know, sir.
Q. You do not know? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know J. C. Fogg personally? A. I know him
when I see him. I don’t know him too well. I know his
children.
Q. You don’t know him except when you see him? A.
That’s right.
Q. How about Wiley Davis? A. Yes, I know him, sir.
—85—
Q. Is he up here today? A. No, sir.
Q. And this Mrs. Clara Alston in the Cedar Rock Com
munity which you think is Route 4—could you tell better
what part of the Cedar Rock Community does she live?
A. Not too far from Stallings Mill.
Q. In which direction—towards Castalia, towards Jus
tice, towards Louisburg, or towards Centerville? A. To
wards Justice, on the first unpaved road.
Q. Running from Stallings Mill?
The Court: Mr. Yarborough, is that material?
Where this woman lives?
Mr. Yarborough: No, sir, I am trying to identify.
My information is that there is more than one by
that name in that area. I just wanted to identify, if
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge— for Plaintiffs—Gross
1316a
he could tell me, on whose land or some landmark.
I wanted to make sure we had the right party.
A. That road has recently been paved; it’s a paved road
now.
Q. Down at Mr. Robert Champion’s, in that direction?
A. That’s right, on that same road.
Q. South of Mr. Champion, or north? A. South of him.
Mr. Yarborough: All right. Thank you, Mr.
— 86—
Coppedge.
R ed ir ec t E xa m in a tion by M r. S ch w elb :
Q. I think that Mr. Yarborough was asking you whether
Edward Best was the school of your choice, and you wanted
to give an elaboration of your answer about that in con
nection with transportation. Would you give an elabora
tion of that now? A. Well, if I had known that the trans
portation would be furnished to Louisburg High School, I
would have chosen Louisburg High School.
Q. You think that is the best school? A. Yes, sir, I do,
sir.
Q. Now, do you know James Cheek? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does he have a son, Jerome Cheek, who attended
Louisburg High School last year? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Yarborough: We object, if the Court please.
I don’t think that came out on cross examination. I
think that is the usual rule.
The Court: Well, overruled. We‘11 hear from him
on that.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Redirect
1317a
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Reverend Coppedge, do you know what grade Jerome
—87—
Cheek was in when he went to Louisburg School! A. The
twelfth.
Q. And the previous eleven years, where had he gone!
A. To Riverside.
Q. And Riverside and Louisburg—are they in the same
city! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And does he live around Epsom! A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was he given transportation to Riverside when he
ŵ ent there!
Mr. Yarborough: We object unless he knows,
your Honor.
The Court: Overruled.
A. Yes, sir, he was.
Q. And was he given transportation to Louisburg! A.
His father had to take him about a mile or two to meet the
bus to go to Louisburg.
Q. And what race is Jerome Cheek! A. Negro.
Q. And what race is Riverside! A. Negro.
Q. And what race is Louisburg, predominantly! A.
That’s white.
Q. Now, you also mentioned in response to Mr. Yar-
— 88-
borough’s questions that the FBI and the SBI and the
sheriff has been at your home quite often in connection
with these incidents! A. Yes, sir.
Q. And other Negroes who live in the community knew
that!
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge-—for Plaintiffs—Redirect
1318a
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
The Court: Overruled.
B y M r. S ch w elh :
Q. Now, you have some idea of the feeling of the com
munity, you testified. Do you think a great many of the
Negroes in your community would enjoy having the FBI
and the SBI coming to investigate incidents of that kind?
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
The Court: Sustained.
B y M r. S ch w elh :
Q. With respect to this shooting into the home of Mr.
Fogg, did you know of his home being shot into prior to
his childrens’ attendance at the Louisburg school?
Mr. Davis: Objection.
The Court: Read the question back, please.
Mr. Schwelb: Let me rephrase it, your Honor.
Q. At the time before the Fogg children went to desegre
gated schools, had you ever heard that their house had
—89—
been shot into? A. No, sir.
Q. And where were they going when their house was
shot into? A. Louisburg High.
Q. And where were James Davis’ children going at the
time when Wiley Davis’ house was shot into? A. They
were going to Louisburg School.
Mr. Schwelb: No further questions, your Honor.
Transcript o f Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Redirect
1319a
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor please, may I ask
Mm these questions?
R ecro ss E xa m in a tion by M r. Y a rb o ro u g h :
Q. Now, Wiley Davis didn’t have any children in Louis-
burg school or any school so far as you know, did he! A.
He has a granddaughter in Riverside.
Q. And Mrs. Perry didn’t have any in the Louisburg
school, did she ? A. No, sir.
Q. Or in any school that you know of? A. She had
granddaughters too, I think.
Q. Beg your pardon? A. She had granddaughters in
Riverside, I think.
—90—
Q. But she didn’t have any in Louisburg school? A.
Not Riverside, but Cedar Street.
Q. Cedar Street? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that is a predominantly colored school? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Now, Mr. Coppedge, you spoke about Jerome Cheek.
He went to Louisburg school in the ’65-66 school year,
didn’t he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he was in the twelfth grade that year ? A. That’s
right.
Q. That was one of the four grades in which the freedom
of choice applied, wasn’t it? A. That’s right.
Q. And he applied, or his parents did, and he was as
signed to the Louisburg school? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he graduated there with the senior class? A.
Yes, he did.
Q. Now, do you know that the transportation arrange
ments were made in a completely satisfactory manner to
Ms father, Mr. James Cheek?
Transcript of Trial-—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Recross
1320a
Mr. Schwelb: Objection to that, your Honor.
Mr. Yarborough: I ’m asking him if he knows.
Mr. Schwelb: It’s a characterization and it could
—91—
not be within his knowledge what was in somebody
else’s mind.
Mr. Yarborough: Well, I don’t know.
The Court: Objection overruled.
B y M r. Y a r b o r o u g h :
Q. Go ahead. Didn’t they, the Board of Education,
and Mr. James Cheek, Jerome’s father, wmrk out a satis
factory transportation arrangement! A. All I know, he
had to take his son a mile or two to meet the bus.
Q. Well, don’t you know it was satisfactory to him
at his suggestion? A. I wouldn’t think it was satisfactory
to drive two miles.
Q. Well, do you know whether it was or not? A. I
don’t know.
Q. And do you know that he lived nearer to the Epsom
School? A. I think he did, sir.
Q. You do know that, don’t you? You have been to
Mr. Cheek’s house? A. Yes, I know where he lives.
Q. And you know where Epsom School is? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he lives nearer to Epsom? A. I think he did.
—92—
Q. And he picked the Louisburg school and got it? A.
Yes, sir.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Rev. Luther Coppedge—for Plaintiffs—Recross
Mr. Yarborough: That’s all. You may come down.
Mr. Schwelb: Nothing further, your Honor.
The Court: All right, call your next witness.
1321a
Mr. Schwelb: Tour Honor, we have no further
witnesses, but we have something like fifty on
deposition.
I would like to inquire of the Court—and excuse
my ignorance of the rules of the Court—whether
pleadings, answers to interrogatories, and so on,
become a part of the record automatically?
The Court: Oh, yes, yes.
Mr. Schwelb: In that case, the Government rests.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, may I make an
inquiry as to the plan filed by the Board pursuant
to the Court’s order, Interim Order, setting out
what it considered objective standards for the em
ployment, assignment, and retention of teachers?
Is that also a part of the record and in evidence
before the Court?
The Court: Oh, yes. Everything that has been
filed as a result of the Court’s orders, or that have
—93—
been filed by counsel, are a part of the record.
Mr. Tucker: May I inquire of the Court what
is the status of these depositions? We contend that
about four-fifths of the testimony in them is incom
petent, irrelevant, and so forth. Where do we stand?
The Court: Well, has counsel gotten together
and tried to digest these depositions to the place
that you can offer the relevant portions of them?
I do know this: that when the Court Reporter
transcribes testimony in question and answer form
from the witness stand, usually about ten per cent
of the volume of question and answer testimony is
material. In other words, it can be translated into
narrative form, for instance, as the Rules of the
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Colloquy
1322a
North Carolina Supreme Court require, and you
wind up with about one-tenth of the volume and
yet you’ve got everything in it that is in the tran
script.
Has any effort been made by counsel in this case
to boil these depositions down into the real sub
stance of what the witnesses have had to say?
Mr. Schwelb: If I might be heard on that, your
Honor, we were going to submit to the Court, and
we are going to submit to the Court, summaries of
each deposition made by some of the distinguished
research assistants and others supervised by lawyers
in our division; and, of course, although we try to
be objective, at the same time I wouldn’t expect
—94—
Mr. Yarborough and Mr. Davis and Mr. Tucker
to stipulate that that is the full deposition. I ’m sure
that they may think other portions are relevant
that we do not. We are going to submit to the
Court today, along with our proposed findings, sum
maries made by us. We believe they are objective,
but we don’t believe that the summarization is bind
ing upon any other counsel in this case either for
the plaintiffs or the defendants.
The Court: Now, your proposed findings, I hope,
will make a reference to at least portions of the
record which you contend support these findings.
Mr. Schwelb: Our proposed findings do so.
The Court: I have the substance of most of these
depositions already, including most of those that
were filed on Thursday of last week, so it will not
be necessary for counsel to undertake to read those
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Colloquy
1323a
depositions, because I am afraid you would miss
your very important meeting in the West if you
undertake to do that.
Mr. Schwelb: I am afraid I would too, your
Honor, and I appreciate your indulgence. We do
believe that some material presented by the defen
dants is probably excludable, and then candor com
pels me to say that some of the material presented
by Plaintiff-Intervenor may have been excludable.
—95—
The Court: Well, of course, there is certain in
formation that I will want to know. I will mention
some of that now so that counsel for the plaintiffs
or the intervenor or the defendants can give me the
benefit of the information before the hearing is over.
A suggestion was made in the Interim Order with
respect to faculty integration and the method by
which it was to be attempted. I want to know what
efforts have been made to integrate the faculty,
the staff, and other personnel.
I want to know whether or not transfers have
been urged by the School Board and school author
ities, that is, whether teachers have been urged
to voluntarily transfer to the schools in which the
pupils are predominantly of a race other than the
teacher. I want to know wThat has been the policy
with respect to the filling of vacancies, if any, on
the faculty. Then I want to know to what extent
in numbers, that is, statistics showing to what ex
tent integration of the faculty, staff, and employees
or other personnel has been achieved.
I want to know to what extent integration of
pupils has been achieved in the various schools;
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Colloquy
1324a
that is, by race, by school, by grade. I want to
know how many parents during the various freedom
of choice periods have expressed a desire to transfer
their children to a school in which the pupils are
—96—
predominantly of a race different from that of the
pupil. And I want to know what happened when
school actually opened: how many of them expressed
a desire to transfer, and then how many of them
showed up and reported to the school to which they
had requested assignment.
I believe that the Interim Order requested that
any person—pupil, parent, teacher—that had any
complaint of any sort arising from the operation of
the freedom of choice plan, report those complaints
to the Honorable Robert H. Cowen, United States
Attorney for the Eastern District of North Caro
lina; how many complaints he has received as a
response to that, and from whom, and the nature
of the complaint.
That’s just an idea of some of the things that I
would desire counsel to give me the benefit of your
information. Now, is there anything else from the
plaintiffs or the intervenor?
Mr. Schwelb: No, your Honor. I think just about
every one of those questions has been answered in
the introductory statement in our brief which is
ready, and I will be happy to give that information
to your Honor now if you want it.
The Court: Well, just so it is given. I don’t care
to have it at this moment, but before the hearing
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Colloquy
1325a
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Colloquy
- 9 7 -
ends or at the conclusion of the hearing, you may
present me with that information. If it is in your
brief, then that is splendid.
Mr. Chambers: Tour Honor, the plaintiffs rest,
but I would like to make on inquiry about the last
inquiry of the Court: the report of complaints to
Mr. Cowen. We had assumed that the problems or
complaints that the plaintiffs might have with re
spect to the operation of freedom of choice might
be made in the motion for further relief which was
filed by the plaintiffs. With that the plaintiffs rest.
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor please, about
this information that Mr. Schwelb says he’s got,
if it is correct, there would be no point in our as
sembling it. I haven’t had an opportunity to see
what he has.
The Court: Well, let me suggest that counsel
confer at some of the recesses. We are going to have
a recess here in eight minutes, and I will give you
ample time to get your lunch and then confer and
see if you can stipulate. It’s amazing how much
time can be saved by stipulation if counsel would
make an effort to do so.
Mr. Schwelb: Just for the record, your Honor,
the statistical information in our brief is taken
from their answers to interrogatories; consequently,
I don’t think it is going to very controversial.
—98—
Mr. Yarborough: Well, I don’t know, I have
not seen it.
The Court: Considering the source, I would think
1326a
that you might actually be able to agree that the
statistics have verity.
Mr. Yarborough: We will stipulate to anything
that is taken from our answers to interrogatories.
The Court: Well, I understood Mr. Schwelb to
say that most of their figures came from the answers
to interrogatories and the information that you
furnished. That’s the reason I thought maybe you
would have no difficulty in stipulating.
Mr. Yarborough: We will stand behind those
current answers in interrogatories.
Mr. Tucker: From what Mr. Chambers said, I
think he should be able to stipulate in open court
right now that no complaints were made to Mr.
Cowen.
Mr. Schwelb: Well, that’s not true, your Honor.
That definitely is not true.
The Court: All right, if you can’t stipulate, you
can’t.
Mr. Schwelb: There were complaints made; and
generally speaking, Mr. Coppedge and others made
complaints either directly to me or to the FBI, but
some of them were made directly to Mr. Cowen.
—99—
Mr. Yarborough: Well, sir, on that particular
question, that’s information peculiar within their
breast as to complaints made to them. I suppose
Mr. Cowen would tell us if he—
The Court: I understand.
Mr. Schwelb: That is not in our brief. Mr. Cowen
is at EXPO 67, but I can informally give the Court
what information I have.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Colloquy
1327a
Mr. Yarborough: We are not going to accept
informal information.
The Court: Now, Gentlemen, the plaintiffs and
the intervenor have rested. Is there any evidence
for the defendants? Well, it’s so close to the ad
journment time, unless you have documentary evi
dence you want to offer. Is there any documentary
evidence that you can use the next few minutes for?
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor please, it is
rather a problem on these depositions. They have
produced testimony of some witnesses which we
think is totally incompetent, testimony which we
would not like to stand. If it were ruled to be
competent—and we do not think it will be, but it’s
a question of whether we should attempt to answer
a certain line of questioning that we believe is not
competent. We are in a little bit of a quandary as
to whether to attempt to answer, put witnesses on in
— 100-
rebuttal to some line of testimony which we think
should not have been in the record at all. I hope
your Honor can appreciate our position. It will
take some time because some of them are technical
and detailed things. That is one of our main—it’s
a quandary for us. I don’t know how to better ex
press it. But whether we put a witness on may well
depend on the Court’s ruling on some of the—
The Court: Have you formulated any general
objections that would apply generally to matters
that you consider objectionable in these depositions?
Mr. Yarborough: The deposition of May 19th
is one in particular—Mr. Stormer, a gentleman that
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Colloquy
1328a
the Government brought down. There are several
matters. We do not think he is qualified as an
expert. There are many, many objections to it.
The Court’s ruling would depend on whether or not
we produced evidence on that particular one.
Most of the other has to do with hearsay or
people bringing in extraneous matters that had
nothing on earth to do—most of the other had
nothing to do with the case in our opinion. These
depositions, as your Honor knows, were wide open;
that objections be made but answers given.
Mr. Chambers: Tour Honor, I understood the
Cort to say in reference to objections tendered by
PlaintifHntervenor that the Court would consider
the objections in the record and would rule out
on its own motion any evidence it considered in-
— 101—
competent or immaterial.
The Court: That is correct. Now, this Mr. Stor-
mer, I believe, is the Assistant Chief of the School
Construction Section Division of the School Assist
ants of the United States Office of Education. Is
that generally correct? I don’t want to leave out any
portion of that title.
Mr. Yarborough: That’s what he said it was. I
have no way to challenge that.
The Court: Now, he testified with respect to the
physical facilities of the various buildings, the
courses taught in the various schools, and the courses
that were not taught; and his deposition as a rule
related to the question of disparity between the
several schools in the system. Is that correct?
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Colloquy
1329a
Mr. Schwelb: Partly correct, your Honor. He also
testified on what we think is a very critical issue
which is whether the location of schools, location of
grades in the system is such that it inherently per
petuates segregation.
The Court: Then he made suggestions for the im
provement, I believe, in the economics in the opera
tion of the schools.
Mr. Schwelb: But beyond that it is our theory in
the case, your Honor, which I think is very significant
— 102-
in the case, that the way the schools of Franklin
County are constructed, which are pairs or groups
of schools in clusters serving the same grades, that
that has no educational merit at all and that its only
purpose in effect is to minimize desegregation and
preserve segregation and, therefore, it’s unconstitu
tional. And we have authority in our brief for that
proposition.
I do want to say this about Mr. Stormer; that pre
viously Mr. Davis and I had made an arrangement
that Mr. Stormer would be made available at this
trial to testify so that they could cross examine him,
and I brought him back from vacation in order to
do that. Now, I got a telephone call at midnight on
Sunday from Mr. Davis that they had changed their
minds about cross examining him, and for that rea
son I didn’t bring him down here. They didn’t cross
examine him at all on the deposition. I think that
ought to be considered in relation to the Stormer
deposition. However, I am prepared to argue at any
time, your Honor, as to the competency of anything
he said and as to his qualifications.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Colloquy
1330a
The Court: Well, I will reiterate that the Court
will consider any objections to any of the depositions
and will exclude such evidence as the Court thinks
is incompetent and will consider what it deems to he
competent, relevant, and material to the issues in the
case. Now, if there are any portions of these deposi-
—103—
tions which counsel wish to cover in your testimony,
you, of course, may do so.
(Whereupon, a recess was taken for lunch from
1:00 p.m. until 2:30 p.m. of the same day.)
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants—Direct
A fternoon Session
July 25, 1967
W arren W. Smith , called as a witness by the defendants,
having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as fo l
lows :
D irect E xam in ation b y M r. D a v is :
Q. State your name, please. A. Warren W. Smith.
Q. What is your address, Mr. Smith! A. 118 Person
Street, Louisburg, North Carolina.
Q. What is your occupation! A. Superintendent of the
Franklin County Schools.
Q. How long have you been Superintendent of the Frank
lin County Schools! A. Going on five years. Since July 1,
1963.
Q. What did you do prior to becoming Superintendent of
the Franklin County Schools? A. I was principal of the
1331a
Edward Best High School for ten years and mathematics
teacher and coach at Epsom School for five years.
—104—
Q. How long have you been associated with education?
A. Going on 20 years.
Q. Where did you get your education? A. I received
my BS Degree from Wake Forest College, my Masters of
Education Degree from the University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill. I did additional graduate work at North
Carolina State University at Raleigh, at Duke University,
and at Randolph Macon Woman’s College in Lynchburg,
Virginia.
Q. And during the courses of study that you have had,
have you at any time studied school consolidation? A. Yes.
Q. How much education have you had along the lines of
school consolidation? A. I had several courses on the ad
ministration of schools.
Q. And state whether or not, Mr. Smith, you have a
superintendent’s certificate issued by the State Department
of Public Instruction certifying you to be a superintendent
in the schools of North Carolina? A. Yes. I qualified for
this certificate in 1955.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, state whether or not you have read
any authorities pertaining to the consolidation and adminis
tration of public schools? A. Yes. I have read a number
—105—
of books in this area.
Q. Would you tell us some of them, please? A. “Ele
mentary School Organization” by Henry Otto from the
University of Texas; “Public School Administration” by
Calvin Grieder of the University of Colorado; Truman M.
Pierce from Auburn University; William Everett Rosen-
stengel from the University of North Carolina at Chapel
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Direct
1332a
Hill; “The Fundamentals of Public School Administration”
by Ward G. Reeder, Ohio State University. And then in the
area of administration, Paul Jacobson, University of Ore
gon; William Reaves, University of Chicago; “The Ad
ministration of the Modern Secondary School” by J. B.
Edmonson, University of Michigan, and Joseph Romer,
George Peabody College. Those are a few of the authori
ties that I have read and studied.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, state whether or not you have had
an opportunity to read the deposition of William Stormer
that was taken in this case on the 19th day of May, 1967?
A. Yes.
Q. And state whether or not you have read Mr. Stormer’s
testimony with respect to the proposed consolidation of
Gethsemane High School and Bunn High School? A. Yes.
Q. And I believe, Mr. Smith, that Mr. Stormer suggested
that the high school of Gethsemane and the high school of
Bunn should be consolidated on a more economical basis
—1 0 6 -
in the operation of the schools; is that right? A. I believe
he did.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, I believe also that there are different
courses taught at the two high schools at the present time, is
that right, sir? In other words, the two high schools don’t
offer the same courses? A. A few exceptions.
Q. Assuming those two high schools to be consolidated,
Mr. Smith, state whether or not the same courses of study
could be offered under the consolidated program as are
offered at the present time? A. Upon reading his testi
mony, the assistant superintendent, Director of Instruction,
worked this out. And by consolidating the two high schools,
the same courses could not be taught by the same number
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Direct
1333a
of teachers that we now have in the schools; it would take
several more teachers than we now have in the schools.
Q. Do yon know how many more teachers it would re
quire if the two schools were consolidated? A. In the
Bunn and the Gethsemane Schools to offer the same courses
that are now being offered, it would take four more teach
ers than we presently have in the two schools by consolidat
ing.
Q. That is, four more teachers in the combined total
than are presently teaching in the two schools? A. That’s
- 1 0 7 -
right.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Direct
The Court: Excuse me a minute.
B y the C o u r t :
Q. Mr. Smith, for my information, I believe you teach
a course at Bunn called Consumer Math? A. That’s right.
Q. What is Consumer Math? A. Consumer Math would
be a course which gives instruction to the students on how
they can get the most for their money; in other words, for
a dollar spent, they get a dollar’s worth in return. I don’t
know how that would be possible in this day and time, how
ever.
Q. Very well, sir. You don’t have many students to fail
that course I assume? A. Usually we do not have many
failures.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. Now, that is a recognized course authorized by the
State Department of Public Instruction ?A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, assuming the high schools at Geth-
1334a
semane and Bunn were consolidated under the present con
ditions, state whether or not you would have the same num
ber of teachers allotted to those schools by the State Depart
ment as you presently have allotted to the combined schools,
A. No. You would have a reduction in the number of
- 1 0 8 -
teachers when you consolidate the schools.
Q. Do you know how much reduction there would be?
A. If you were to consolidate, say, Bunn and Gethsemane,
you would end up with—instead of nine high schools in the
County, you would end up with eight high schools. And by
reducing the number of schools, let’s say two for instance:
if you have seven schools, you would have a reduction of
two high school teachers in the County.
B y th e C o u r t:
Q. Mr. Smith, I have lost the trend there. Are you telling
me that the number of high school teachers depends upon
the number of high schools rather than the number of
pupils? A. This is a very complicated formula. The old
formula—and I mean it still exists—you get four teachers
for the first 80 pupils in average daily attendance, taking
into consideration the incoming ninth grade students and
the outgoing twelfth grade students, and then this would
be compared with what you figured you would have this past
year, and sometimes it’s a negative number; in other words,
you did not actually get as many students in average daily
attendance plus contagions as you anticipated, and, there
fore, you have a negative number to deduct before you get
your allotment credits.
Q. Now, what is that word— A. Contagions?
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants— Direct
1335a
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W . Smith—for Defendants—Direct
—109—
Q. Yes, sir. What is that? A. Those students who are
absent because of contagious diseases. We get credit for
that in the allotment of teachers.
Q. If the disease is not contagious but they are just sim
ply sick, you don’t get any credit? A. No, we do not get
any credit.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, may I ask Mr. Smith
a question or two for my own edification?
The Court: Yes, sir.
B y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Mr. Smith, when you are talking about consolidation
and the allotment of teachers, are you considering the
merger of the elementary and high school departments of
one of those schools into the other, or are you talking about
merging the high school department in one school and the
elementary department in another? A. I am referring to
high schools.
Q. You are not considering the elementary schools? A.
No. I believe from what Mr. Stormer pointed out, he was
referring to high schools.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, that formula you have just been
through, is that your formula or the State’s formula? A.
— 110—
That’s the formula of the State Department of Public In
struction.
Q. And by use of that— A. I mean the State Board of
Education.
1336a
Q. And by use of that formula which you have just been
through, the State Board of Education allots teachers to
the various school administrative units; is that correct!
A. That’s correct.
B y the Court-.
Q. Well, now, Mr. Smith, I understood that counsel was
trying to get at the differential in the number of teachers
required to teach the subjects now being taught in the two
different high schools, that is, the Bunn High School and
the Gethsemane School—the differential between the num
ber now teaching in the two separate schools and the num
ber that would be required if the high schools were con
solidated. A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you have testified, as I understand it, that if
the two high schools were consolidated, the same courses
now being taught in the separate schools could not be taught
by the same number of teachers; is that correct? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. That it would require four more teachers? A. Yes,
- I l l -
sir, from this that has been worked up right here.
Q. And you further testified, as I understood it, that if
they were consolidated, the number of teachers would ac
tually be reduced below the number you have now? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. So you would have less teachers than you have now,
whereas four more teachers would actually be required.
Now, what would be the total differential? Putting it an
other way and a simpler way, how many teachers do you
have now in the two separate high schols? A. We have
20 teachers.
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W . Smith—for Defendants—Direct
1337a
Q. Now, that’s Bunn and Gethsemane. Yon have 20
teachers! A. Yes, sir.
Q. That’s the total high school teachers. How many
would you have if the schools were consolidated; how many
would be allotted to you by this formula which you have
explained? A. Well, we would have to go back and take the
allotment credits from Bunn and the allotment credits from
Gethsemane, add the two together. And I wouldn’t know
right off. I would have to figure that out. It would be some
what less than—somebody’s got to lose a teacher in the ad
ministrative unit. If we lose two teachers by this eonsoli-
— 112—
dation, we would not have the same number of teachers
that we do have for this next year.
The Court: Do you gentlemen understand?
Mr. Davis: Yes, sir.
The Court: All right, you may proceed.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. Now, how many students are in the Bunn High School,
Mr. Smith? A. For the ’66-67 school year?
Q. Yes, sir. A. 716.
Q. Is that the high school or the whole school? A. That
is the entire school.
Q. From grades 1 through 12? A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, what grades are considered high school; is it
10 through 12? A. We consider in our organization 9
through 12.
Q. How many students are in the high school, grades 9
through 12, at Bunn High School? A. I’ll have to give an
estimate on that. I would say 220 at Bunn.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants—Direct
1338a
Q. And how many students are in the Gethsemane High
School, grades 9 through 12! A. I would say 150.
—113—
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, in reading Mr. Stormer’s testimony,
did you read the portion of his testimony where he listed
certain disadvantages of a small high school? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know, Mr. Smith, of any advantages of a small
high school? A. Yes.
Q. What are they? A. I know from a source that I have
read. “The Administration of the Secondary Schools” hy
Edmonson, Eomer and Bacon, they list a number of advan
tages of a small high school.
Q. And what are they? A. No. 1. In a small high school,
there is a marked degree of personal recognition of stu
dents.
No. 2. Close teacher-student contact.
No. 3. More homogenious group.
No. 4. Large per cent of students participate in major
activities of school.
No. 5. Reticent student is likely to receive more atten
tion.
No. 6. Strong school support by the community.
No. 7. Intimate relationship between home and school.
No. 8. It is easier to discover the special abilities, apti-
—114—
tudes, and capacities of students.
No. 9. Pupil contacts with school executives are much
freer and more frequent.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, in your experience as a teacher,
principal, and superintendent, state whether or not you
have been closely associated with small high schools
throughout your career in the education field? A. Yes.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Direct
1339a
Q. And state whether or not yon find the advantages you
have just enumerated substantially correct? A. Yes, I
agree with all of these nine points here.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, with respect to what you have testi-
field to about the proposed or possible consolidation of
Gethsemane and Bunn High Schools, state whether or not,
that would be substantially true concerning consolidation
throughout the Franklin County Administrative Unit. A.
you mean putting two schools together?
Q. Yes, sir. Would have the same effect throughout the
County? A. Yes.
Q. Now, in reading Mr. Stormer’s testimony, Mr. Smith,
did you read the part of his testimony pertaining to the
general grounds at the Louisburg School, that is, the ath
letic facilities, tennis courts, and what-have-you? A. Yes.
—115—
Q. Can you briefly for the Court relate the substance
of Mr. Stormer’s testimony as to the facilities at Louisburg
High School concerning the playgrounds and the athletic
facilities ?
Mr. Schwelb: Your Honor, I think that the testi
mony of Mr. Stormer speaks for itself. I can under
stand that the Court may want to have some recol
lection of what Mr. Stormer said, but I think we
should be very careful not to characterize it.
Mr. Davis: I was doing this, if your Honor please,
for your benefit so that you would understand what
he was talking about in his testimony.
The Court: Very well, I’ll let him state. While
it’s repetitious, it may be necessary to lay a founda
tion for his answer, I don’t know. But I will let
him give his impression of what the testimony was
as a basis for his own testimony. Go ahead.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Direct
1340a
A. Well, it was brought out in Mr. Stormer’s testimony,
or he was questioned as to the amount of grass in one
school on the school grounds and the amount of grass on
other school grounds and the athletic fields.
Q. Do you remember the substance of his testimony per
taining to the athletic fields ? A. He made a statement or,
—116—
rather said, there was a lighted stadium in the Louisburg
School.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, state whether or not the Franklin
County Board of Education has spent any of the funds at
its disposal for the athletic facilities or other facilities,
playground facilities, and otherwise, at Louisburg School!
A. Not since I have been superintendent of the Franklin
County Schools.
Q. State whether or not any Franklin County School
funds have been spent on playground facilities and athletic
facilities at any of the schools within the Franklin County
Administrative Unit? A. It is a general policy that the
individual schools have the responsibility of the upkeep of
their athletic grounds, and so forth.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, who paid for the lights at the Louis
burg football field? A. I do not know who paid for it.
The Board of Education did not pay for it. It’s my under
standing that the parents or the Booster’s Club paid for
the lights at this school.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, who paid for the seating of the foot
ball field at Louisburg? A. Once again, the parents or the
—1 1 7 -
Booster’s Club bought these seats, and I think one parent
donated a number of seats.
Q. Who paid for the shrubbery that has been placed
around the Louisburg School? A. It is my understanding
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Direct
1341a
that the PTA or the Garden Club has taken this on as a
project. The Board of Education did not.
Q. State whether or not any public money to your knowl
edge has been spent for the athletic facilities, playground
facilities, or shrubbery around the Louisburg School. A.
Not to my knowledge.
Q. State whether or not any public money has been spent
for the athletic facilities or the playground facilities at any
of the Franklin County schools. A. To a very small de
gree, if any.
Q. Mr. Smith, did you read in Mr. Stormer’s testimony
that there exists at the Louisburg school a lighted football
stadium? A. Yes.
Q. State whether or not you have a photograph in your
possession of that football stadium. A. Yes, I have.
(Photograph handed to counsel by the witness.)
Mr. Schwelb: I would like to know when these
—118—
were taken, your Honor. If these are being intro
duced in evidence, I have an objection unless they
are identified further than they have been.
Mr. Davis: Well, I am going to identify them right
now.
The Court: All right, go ahead.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. Mr. Smith, do you recognize this photograph? A.
This is the football field at—
The Court: Just a moment. So that the record
may show, what is the number of this?
Mr. Davis: Defendants’ Exhibit 1.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants—Direct
1342a
B y the C o u r t:
Q. You say that is the photograph of what? A. The
football field at the Louisburg High School.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. And do you know when that photograph was taken,
Mr. Smith? A. Yesterday.
Q. And state whether or not that photograph is a fair
representation of the Louisburg football field as it existed
back in April of 1967 when Mr. Stormer viewed the foot
ball field at Louisburg High School. A. I wTould say it
would be comparable.
Mr. Davis: I would like to offer this as Defend
ants’ Exhibit 1, if your Honor please.
—119—
Mr. Chambers: May we approach the bench, your
Honor?
The Court: Yes.
B y the C o u r t:
Q. Nowt, you say this was taken yesterday. By that you
are referring to July 24, 1967? A. Yes, sir.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. Now, I hand you a photograph marked Defendants’
Exhibit 2.
The Court: Just a moment. Is there an objection
pending with respect to that?
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Direct
1343a
Mr. Chambers: I would like to tender one at this
time and reserve it for the purpose of cross exami
nation. It might be that after cross examination we
could withdraw the objection.
The Court: All right.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. Do you recognize Defendants’ Exhibit 2, Mr. Smith?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that, sir? A. This is a picture of the football
field at Louisburg High School.
Q. When was that photograph taken? A. This was
— 120—
taken on July 24, 1967.
Q. And does that photograph represent the Louisburg
football field as it existed in April, 1967? A. To the best
of my knowledge.
Mr. Davis: I would like to introduce that into evi
dence if your Honor please.
Mr. Chambers: Same objection, your Honor.
The Court: All right, I will reserve the ruling
on it until after cross examination.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, are there any bleachers or seats at
the Louisburg football field other than as shown in these
photographs, to your knowledge? A. To my knowledge,
no.
Q. Now, this press box that is shown in the photograph
marked Defendants’ Exhibit 2, do you know who built that
press box at the Louisburg football field? A. Members of
the Booster’s Club constructed this press box.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Direct
1344a
Q. Mr. Smith, have you had an opportunity to see some
photographs taken by a Mr. G-oldberg, I believe, of the
Federal Bureau of Investigation that have been introduced
in evidence in connection with Mr. Stormer’s testimony
about Riverside High School? A. Yes. ,
— 121—
Q. Showing a view of Riverside High School? A. Yes.
Q. Have you got that in your possession? A. Yes, I
have.
Mr. Davis: Mr. Schwelb, I understand these have
already been introduced.
Mr. Schwelb: Yes, they were introduced as ex
hibits in the Stormer deposition.
The Court: Whom did you say they were taken
by?
Mr. Davis: A Mr. Goldberg, I believe. Isn’t that
right, Mr. Schwelb?
Mr. Schwelb: An FBI agent, yes, your Honor.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. Mr. Smith, I hand you a photograph marked G-6,
which is labeled “Outside View of Riverside High School,”
which was introduced in evidence in this case in connec
tion with the testimony of Mr. Stormer, and ask you if you
can recognize anything in that picture?
Mr. Schwelb: May I approach the witness, too,
your Honor, so I can see what he is talking about?
The Court: Yes, sir.
A. I recognize buildings off the campus of the Riverside
School.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Direct
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants— Direct
— 122—
Q. Are there any buildings shown in that picture, Mr.
Smith, that compose Riverside High School? A. No.
Q. Are there any buildings in that picture that are owned
by the Franklin County Administrative Unit? A. No.
Q. What is shown in the picture, Mr. Smith? A. Wilson
Building Supply Company and a tobacco office.
Q. And is that the picture, Mr. Smith, that Mr. Stormer
testified portrayed an outside view7 of Riverside High
School? A. No.
Mr. Schwelb: Again, that is a characterization,
your Honor.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. I say is that the picture that Mr. Stormer said showed
an outside view of the Riverside High School? A. Yes.
Mr. Schwelb: For the record, Mr. Stormer didn’t
say anything. There were indexed by the FBI agent.
The Court: Well, I don’t have the Stormer deposi
tion before me. Objection overruled. Gfo ahead.
—123—
Mr. Davis: I would like to have these photographs
marked as Defendants’ Exhibits 3, 4, and 5.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, I hand you a photograph marked
Defendants’ Exhibit 3, and ask you if you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that? A. This is a view of the campus of
the Riverside School showing part of the Riverside High
School and one of the elementary buildings.
1346a
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, do you know when that photograph
was taken ? A. This was taken July 24, 1967.
Q. And state whether or not that scene is portrayed
substantially as it existed in April of 1967. A. Yes.
Mr. Davis: I would like to introduce that into
evidence, if your Honor please—Defendant’s Ex
hibit 3.
If your Honor please, I believe the Plaintiffs
and Plaintiff-Intervenor say they will stipulate that
these photographs represent pictures of Riverside
High School.
The Court: Now, you have asked the witness about
Defendants’ Exhibit No. 3. What other exhibits do
—124—
you refer to?
Mr. Davis: We also have Defendants’ Exhibits
4 and 5.
The Court: All right, now, do I understand that
is stipulated by the Plaintiffs and the Intervenor?
Mr. Schwelb: I have no objection to those, your
Honor. I will stipulate that they are, if he says
they are.
Mr. Chambers: The same, your Honor.
Mr. Davis: We ask that they be introduced.
The Court: Very well, they are admitted.
B y the C o u r t :
Q. Now, do I understand for my information, Mr. Smith,
that Defendants’ Exhibits 3, 4, and 5, each of them, are
views of buildings on the campus of the Riverside School?
A. Yes, sir.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Direct
1347a
Q. And all three of these exhibits are photographs taken
on July 24, 1967? A. Yes, sir.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. State whether or not, Mr. Smith, the Franklin County
Administrative Unit offers any supplement to teachers’
salaries for the teachers teaching within the unit? A. No,
no supplement.
—125—
Q. Then the only compensation they receive for their
service is what is paid to them by the State of North Caro
lina; is that correct? A. That’s correct.
B y the C o u rt:
Q. Excuse me. By supplement, do you mean teachers’
salaries supplement ? A. In addition to whatever the State
salary schedule would be.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. State whether or not the surrounding school admin
istrative units in surrounding counties pay supplements to
their teachers’ salaries. A. Most of the counties pay a
supplement with maybe one exception.
Q. And state whether or not in the past, Mr. Smith,
Franklin County has had trouble retaining the services of
the teachers due to the fact that surrounding counties are
paying supplements to their teachers?
Mr. Schwelb: Object to the form of that question,
your Honor.
The Court: Objection overruled, if he knows.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Direct
1348a
A. Yes. It’s getting more difficult each year.
Q. And you attribute that fact to the fact that the sur
rounding counties are paying supplements to teachers! A.
—126—
Yes.
Q. Has the Franklin County Administrative Unit lost
any teachers to the surrounding counties because of the
supplements that are paid? A. Yes.
Q. State whether or not the Franklin County Adminis
trative Unit has lost any teachers to other states because
of supplements paid to teachers in other states, Mr.
Smith. A. Yes, this happens each year.
Q. Mr. Smith, I believe Franklin County is basically a
rural county; is that correct, sir? A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Smith, state whether or not certain schools within
the Franklin County Administrative Unit offer lunches to
their students at a reduced price in certain schools that
qualify under the ESEA program? A. Yes.
Q. What is meant by ESEA, Mr. Smith? A. This is the
Elementary and Secondary Education Act.
Q. Can you explain to the Court how that lunch program
operates under the ESEA program? A. Yes. I ’ll do the
best I can. First of all, we had to determine what schools
would qualify to receive funds, Title 1 funds under the Ele
mentary and Secondary Education Act. We had to find the
—1 2 7 -
areas where there was a concentration of educationally de
prived children, not only economically but educationally
deprived. Of course, to find the target areas, a survey was
made on the economic level; and in so doing, certain schools
became eligible. In other words, if you have twelve schools,
you find out how many children come from low-income
families and get the per cent of those children—what that
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants—Direct
1349a
is of the total number of children in the Administrative
Unit. If that comes out to be 56 per cent or 53 per cent, all
schools that have 53 per cent or above would be qualifying
schools.
Q. Now, do you have any schools in the Franklin County
Administrative Unit that qualify under the ESEA pro
gram? A. Yes, we have five schools that qualify.
Q. That qualify for the lunch program? A. Well, for
Title 1 funds. And under Title 1 funds, we do have the
lunch program.
Q. And what are the names of the schools that qualify?
A. The Cedar Street School, the G-ethsemane School, the
Riverside School, the Youngsville Elementary School, and
the Perry’s School.
Q. Now, in those five qualifying schools that you have
just named, what is the price of the lunch for each pupil
—128—
at those schools? A. The regular price of lunch is 300.
Q. Is that the countywide price? A. That’s the coun
tywide price.
Q. And what is the price of lunches at the eligible schools
for the pupils who qualify? A. For the pupils who qualify
in the eligible schools, the price of lunch is 100 , and for
some it is entirely free.
Q. Depending on the economic situation of the family?
A. Yes.
B y the C o u rt:
Q. Now, just a moment, for my information. You say
there are five schools which you have named that qualify
under this program? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do all of the children in each of those five schools
qualify for this reduced-priced lunch, or what are the cir
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Direct
1350a
cumstances? A. Only those who are educationally de
prived or economically deprived. That is, if the family
makes less than $2000 a year, the children would qualify
for a 100 lunch, or possibly a free lunch.
Q. Now, the family income, then, is fixed at $2000 or
—129—
less than $2000! A. $2000 or less, yes, sir.
Q. Now, the other schools in the County which do not
qualify, do any of the children in those schools! If they
come from economically deprived families, are they entitled
to the benefit of this program, these funds! A. No, sir, not
Title 1 funds.
By Mr. Davis:
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, along that same line, the policies
for the lunch program under the ESEA program are set
by agencies other than the Franklin County administrative
body; is that right? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In other words, you administer the program that
some other State authority or Federal authority tells you
to administer; is that right? A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, for the purpose of illustration, if—■
I believe you said Riverside School is a qualifying school?
A. Yes.
Q. And Louisburg High School is a non-qualifying school?
A. Correct.
Q. Under the policy of the ESEA program, if one stu
dent, one qualifying student, that is, from a family with
—130—
an income of less than $2000, who last year attended River
side High School transferred for next year, that is, the
1967-68 school year, to Louisburg High School, would that
child still receive his lunch at a reduced price or free?
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Direct
1351a
A. The regulations that we follow, one student would not
qualify if only one student transferred; that is, a qualify
ing student from a qualifying school transferred to a non
qualifying school, these students would not qualify.
B y M r. C h am bers:
Q. Was your answer that “these” students would not
qualify! A. A student.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. In other words, the lunch does not follow the child
from a qualifying school to a non-qualifying school; is that
correct? A. That’s correct.
Q. Is that a correct statement of the policy? A. Yes.
B y the C o u rt:
Q. Would it make any difference whether there was one
child or a dozen or fifty! A. Yes, it would make a differ
ence.
—131—
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. Mr. Smith, can you explain the policy of the State
Board to the Court? A. Yes. If as many as 10 students
transfer—that is, eligible students in an eligible school
transfer to an ineligible school, these 10 students would be
eligible for, say, lunch benefits or what-have-you, what they
were receiving in the school which they left plus an addi
tional one and one-half times that amount. For instance,
if 10 transfer, 15 more—you would have a total of 25
students in an ineligible school that would be eligible for
some benefits under Title 1.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—-Direct
1352a
B y the C o u r t:
Q. Do I understand if 10 qualifying students transfer
from a qualifying school to a non-eligible school, that they
not only carry with them sufficient funds to maintain the
status quo as far as they are concerned, but to take care
of additional students? A. One and one-half times that
amount.
Q. Do you learn that in Consumer Math? A. Well, I
learned it out of these directions right here (indicating a
book) which were put out by—Title 1, Elementary and
Secondary Education Act, the State Department of Public
Instruction.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. Mr Smith, in the 1966-67 school year there was no
—132—
provision in the regulations for students to transfer from
non-qualifying schools to qualifying schools and carry the
lunches with them; is that correct? A. No regulations to
my knowledge.
Q. In other words, the 10 transferring, the one and one-
half rule applying to that was not in effect last year? A.
No.
Q. What you have just told the Court applied to the
’67-68 school year? A. Yes.
B y the C o u r t :
Q. Now, if you don’t have these additional eligible stu
dents in this school to which the 10 have transferred, what
do you do with that extra money that they have brought
along with them? A. It stays in the school they left.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Direct
1353a
Q. It’s only in the event that they are eligible recipients
in the school to which they transfer that this extra money
goes along? A. Yes, sir. It would not be any more money
in the County. It’s just a matter of shifting the money
from this school to the other school. In other words, it
would be less money in this school where they left, but more
money in the school that they go to.
—133—
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. Mr. Smith, in your earlier testimony you testified
concerning the allotment of high school teachers. Can you
in detail explain to the Court exactly how the high school
teachers are allotted by the State to the Franklin County
Administrative Unit? A. I will do the best I can. We
have the allotment credits. I believe I have explained that.
That took into consideration this complicated formula. Sup
pose you came up with 1600 allotment credits and, say, you
have one district in an administrative unit and you have
nine high schools. You look on this chart and you find
nine high schools. You go across the chart and you find
you will get, say, 28 teachers for 560 allotment credits—
Q. What does the allotment credit represent? A. Ba
sically, the allotment credit is average daily attendance
plus contagions. Of course, it takes into consideration in
coming and outgoing and, then, comparing it with what you
projected last year with actually what happened. All right,
suppose they did take 560 allotment credits away from your
—and you get 28 teachers for the 560; subtract that from
1600, and the remainder you get a teacher for every 30
allotment credits.
Q. Now, what does the figure 1600 represent? A. That’s
the total allotment credits that you have.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Direct
1354a
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
—134—
Q. That is, 1600 is the total allotment credits you have
in the Franklin County Administrative Unit? A. Yes.
That is just a figure I am using for an example.
Q. And what did you say after you— A. If you have
9 high schools, you look at this formula, and you find that
you get, say, 28 teachers for 560 allotment credits. All
right, you subtract the 560 from the 1600, and the remainder
you get you divide by 30, and that will give you the addi
tional teachers you get to add to the 28 to get your total
high school allotment.
Q. Mr. Smith, have you had occasion to read the motion
that Mr. Schwelb filed on behalf of the Plaintiff-Intervenor
in this cause moving for the removal of disparities in the
Franklin County school system ? A. Yes.
Q. Have you also had an opportunity to read the sup
porting exhibits attached to that motion? A. Yes.
Q. State whether or not, Mr. Smith, the figures included
in Mr. Schwelb’s supporting exhibits and affidavits are cur
rent at this time and correct. A. No.
Q. They are not? A. No.
—135—
Mr. Davis: You may examine him.
C ross E xam in ation by M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Mr. Smith, when Mr. Davis started examining you,
you were looking at some report that someone prepared for
you about the allotment of teachers? A. Yes.
Q. May I see that?
(Witness hands report to counsel.)
1355a
Q. Now, you were also looking at a book which you re
ferred to as a book on Title 1, Federal Program, of the
State Department of Education! A. Yes.
Q. May I see that!
(Witness hands counsel a book bound in red.)
Q. Now, on this list here, would you point out on here
for me what you were referring to for the allotment of
teachers! A. I don’t understand your question.
Q. You made a statement in answer to a question of
Mr. Davis that if you consolidated Gethsemane and Bunn
that you would have fewer teachers allotted to the high
school. A. That was the formula that I was just talking
about.
—136—
Q. Weren’t you referring to a list there that you say a
teacher or someone on your staff prepared for you! A.
Not in regard to fewer teachers being allotted.
Q. Then you have not determined that you will have
fewer teachers or you would have fewer teachers if you
consolidated those schools? A. Oh, yes.
Q. Do you have those figures there? A. Yes.
Q. May I see those? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor please, these are
his notes here. We have no objection to his showing
them to him.
The Court: Very well, sir. Go ahead with your
examination.
B y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Would you explain to the Court whether teachers are
presently allotted to Bunn High School on a separate basis
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1356a
for the high school students and elementary students or
allotted to Bunn High school for both departments? A. It’s
a different formula for high school allotment than for ele
mentary allotment.
Q. Would that also be true for the Gethsemane School?
A. That’s correct.
—137—
Q. When you determined the number of teachers to be
allotted to the Gethsemane School, you determined the
total number that would be allotted to the Gethsemane
School? A. For which not?
Q. For the school, from grades 1 through 12? A. No.
By elementary and high school.
Q. And then you combined the two? A. On this report
that you are referring right here?
Q. On the report that you submit to Raleigh to the State
Department of Public Instruction. A. Well, it’s all on
one big sheet. The table of organization is all on one big
sheet.
Q. And you take the number that you allot for the ele
mentary school and add to the number for the high school
—138—
to get the total allotment for the school? A. No. We send
in the average daily attendance plus contagion of each
grade. The State Board of Education figures this up.
Q. For each elementary school? A. No, they figure it
out for the entire administrative unit.
Q. For the entire school system? A. Yes.
Q. Then, you don’t figure the allotments for each school,
but you figure them for the entire school system; isn’t that
—138—
the way you determine the allotment for the school system?
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1357a
A. I do not figure the allotment to the school system; the
State Board of Education figures that.
Q. That’s the way they are figured for the school system
by the State Board, is it not? A. Yes.
Q. You don’t pick out the separate schools in the school
system, but you determine the number of teachers to be
allotted to the school system? A. Yes.
Q. The other allotments are made by your office, are
they not? A. Yes.
Q. Now, this statement about how you went about deter
mining the number of teachers to be allotted to your school
was the procedure that you followed? A. Yes, but I was
referring to the same formula that is used by the State
Board of Education.
Q. Prior to 1965, would you state whether teachers
were allotted to your school system according to race? A.
I don’t know the exact year, but I think that would be the
year prior to that.
Q. You had so many allotments of Negro teachers to
your school system and so many allotments of white teach-
—139—
ers to your school system; is that correct? A. Well, so
many, yes, to the district.
Q. In 1965 you had a change to that procedure, didn’t
you? A. Yes.
Q. You now have teachers allotted to your school system
by the State Board of Education? A. That’s correct.
Q. If you consolidate high schools in your County or in
your school system, why would you have from the State
Board of Education fewTer allotments of high school teachers
for your school system? A. Well, that’s what I have been
trying to explain here. I don’t know the reason, but it
just so happens. If I could go a step further, suppose there
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1358a
was only one high school in the County, then yon would
get four teachers for the first 80 allotment credits, and
thereafter for every 30 allotment credits, you get one
teacher, and so, therefore, you would end up with fewer
teachers.
Q. Mr. Smith, I think there has already been introduced
in evidence the principals’ final report for the year 1965-66,
which were filed by the principals of your school system
with the State Board of Education. I show you a copy of
Government’s Exhibit 31. It’s a monthly report. Would
you state whether Government’s Exhibit 31 is a monthly
- 1 4 0 -
report for 1966-67! A. That which I have seen here is.
I assume that all of it is.
Q. You were talking about credits and you mentioned
that you determined credits by average daily attendance.
A. Partly by that.
Q. And contagions? A. Partly.
Q. Now, would you look on that monthly report and point
out to the Court where your average daily attendance is
shown in that report ? A. Here.
Q. What column is that? A. It’s the second column in
the middle of the page.
Q. Is that Roman Number I or II? A. You must have
a different report from what I ’ve got.
Q. Is that the first section of the report? A. No. That’s
not average daily attendance.
Q. Where is the average daily attendance on that exhibit ?
A. It would be here. “Elementary Average Daily Attend
ance.”
Q. And the high school average daily attendance? A.
Here.
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1359a
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
—141—
Q. Is that a summary for the school or for the school
system! A. In this particular case, for the school.
Q. Now, where is the report on contagions ? A. I can
point it out. There’s nothing to identify it by.
Q. It also appears on the first page? A. Yes.
Q. In the sixth column on the lower left side of that
page? A. Five and six.
Q. Now, when you submit your report to the State De
partment to determine the number of credits that you will
have, do you not compile the average daily attendance and
the contagions for the entire school system is determining
the number of credits you will have for your school sys
tem? A. We do not even determine the credits we get.
This is done by the State Board of Education.
Q. Then, you don’t know exactly how they proceed in
doing it ? A. I know how they do it.
Q. Do you have a copy of the regulations of the State
Board of Education for the determination of the allotment
of teachers? A. Yes.
—142
Q. Do you have a copy with you? A. Yes.
(Copy of regulations referred to above handed
by witness to counsel.)
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, we would like to
mark this as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 1.
Mr. Schwelb: Your Honor, I could ask one of my
young ladies to go upstairs and make a couple of
copies of Xerox copies of that.
The Court: Well, is there any objection by the
witness or by counsel to using this as a Govern-
1360a
merit’s exhibit, or would you prefer it to be photo
stated?
Mr. Yarborough: You mean whether the photo
stat can be used in place of the original?
The Court: Well, if the witness has another
copy and this can be used as an exhibit to remain
in the record, that’s fine; otherwise, we can have
it photostated.
Mr. Yarborough: We have no objections to photo
stating it. I understood they were not introducing
it in evidence just then, but marking for identifica
tion at this time. They are just marking it for iden
tification, isn’t that correct? Well, we have no ob-
—143—
jection to having it photocopied.
The Witness: I can spare one.
Mr. Yarborough: I expect, your Honor, that he
should have that back.
B y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Mr. Smith, would you state whether your testimony
in reference to the teacher allotment at a combined Gethse-
mane and Bunn School was determined from this set of
regulations from the State Department?
The Court: Now, when you say “this”, Mr. Cham
bers, would you specify the exhibit number so that
the record may show what you have reference to ?
Mr. Chambers: The exhibit which has been marked
as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 1 for the purpose of identifica
tion.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
A. Yes.
1361a
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, you testified that if you were to
combine Bunn and Gethsemane, you would not be able to
teach all of the classes that are presently taught in the two
schools? A. From this report that the assistant superin
tendent worked up, no.
Q. Mr. Smith, would you state whether you have had
—144—
anything to do with the preparation of this report? A. I
locked it over after she prepared it.
Q. Have you studied it to determine its authenticity or
accuracy? A. Yes.
Q. I am referring to the report from which you testified
regarding classes that could be taught if you combined
Gethsemane and Bunn schools. A. Yes.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, may I speak off the
record for one moment to make one inquiry of the
witness?
The Court: Yes.
(Discussion off the record.)
Q. Could you explain to the Court, Mr. Smith, why you
would be unable to teach the classes that are now taught
at the two schools if they were combined? A. Well, the
way this report was made, the best I could figure was they
put the ninth grades together, the tenth grades, the eleventh
grades, and the twelfth grades; and then if you have, say,
so many students in the ninth grade, you know that you’ve
got to teach them, say, English I, and maybe half of them
will take Algebra I, and half might want Consumer Math,
and maybe that other group will want Civics and I assume
that that is the way she arrived at the subjects and the
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants—Cross
1362a
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
—145—
number of subjects that would be needed to be offered,
and—
Q. Let me try to follow you. You have testified that
if you combined Bunn and Gethsemane that you would not
be able to offer the same courses that you are now offering
at the two schools !
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor please, may I
state this? As I understood his testimony, they
would not be able to do it without additional teachers.
The Witness: That’s correct from this report
that was made by the assistant superintendent.
The Court: Yes, I recall the testimony. Go ahead,
Mr. Chambers.
B y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Now, you are saying that you assume that if you
did combine the two schools that you would have to offer
a certain number of courses and, therefore, would need
additional teachers? A. Yes.
Mr. Chambers: Now, your Honor, Mr. Smith has
stated that this is the only copy of the report he
has, but we would like to have it marked as an
exhibit.
The Court: Yes. You may have it marked, and
—146—
you may have it or any other document that you
desire to be introduced photostated.
(Document referred to above marked for iden
tification as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 2.)
1363a
Mr. Yarborough: It is marked only for identifica
tion as I understand it.
B y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Mr. Smith, would you explain to the Court why you
would need, as I understand this exhibit, five classes in
English I if you combined the two schools? A. Well, you
have one hundred thirty-two students in English I.
Q. And how do you determine that you would need five
classes with one hundred thirty-two students? A. Well,
five into one hundred thirty-two would go twenty-six and
two-fifths times.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, I believe that you helped prepare
the answers to interrogatories which have already been
introduced into evidence, showing the numbers of students
per grade in the various schools, did you not? A. Yes.
Q. I show you a copy of Exhibit A which was attached
to the answers to the interrogatories filed by the defendants
in April of 1967, and ask if this shows the number of ninth
grade students at Bunn for the year 1966-67? A. Ninth
—147-
grade students?
Q. Yes, sir. A. Yes.
Q. And how many students are shown for the ninth
grade at Bunn? A. 67.
Q. Does it also show the number of ninth grade students
at Gethsemane? A. Yes.
Q. How many students are at Gethsemane? A. 54.
Q. How did you determine that you would have 132
students in the ninth grade if those two schools were
combined? A. This is 1966-67. We were referring to the
1967-68 projected enrollment.
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1364a
Q. Now, would you look at the eighth grade for those
two schools? A. Yes.
Q. What’s the number of students at Bunn for 1966-67!
A. 65.
Q. And the number at Gethsemane? A. 46.
Q. That would make a total of 115? Would that make
a total of 110?
—148—
The Court: What were these two figures—65 and
46?
A. 65 and 46. It would be 111.
B y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Then, where did you get the increase of 21 students
for the ninth grade? A. You did not take into considera
tion retentions.
Q. Now, do you have any way of determining retention?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is your procedure or practice for deter
mining retention? A. We get reports in as to how many
are promoted from the eighth grade to the ninth.
Q. And your 132 figure here, you say, represents the
retention and the number of students promoted to the
ninth grade? A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, would you state whether this answer,
Exhibit A, projects the number of students who would be
assigned to the schools for the 1967-68 school year? A.
Let me see it. No.
Q. I show you, Mr. Smith, a copy of the interrogatories
that were filed by the plaintiffs in April of 1967, and ask
if you would show the answer in the interrogatory for
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1365a
Question No. 2 which requests for the 1967-68 school
- 1 4 9 -
year the number of Negro students by grade and the
number of white students by grade for that school year!
A. That’s Exhibit C.
Q. Now, would you look at the ninth grade for Bunn for
that projection! A. Yes.
Q. And that shows a total of how many students! A. 62.
Q. Would you look at the projection for Gethsemanef
A. 48.
Q. Now, is that the projection of the number of ninth
grade students for 1967-68? A. At that time.
Q. And that was prepared in April of 1967, is that cor
rect? A. Yes. And at that time we did not know the reten
tion.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, would you state the number of sec
tions in the ninth grade for the two schools for the 1966-67
school year? A. I do not know right off.
Q. Do you know whether this five classes for the ninth
grade English would represent an increase or a decrease
in the number of classes for the ninth grade if those two
schools were combined? A. I do not know.
—150—
Q. Do you know whether the four classes in the tenth
grade would represent an increase or a decrease in number
of classes if those two schools were combined? A. I don’t
know.
Q. In other words, you don’t knowT whether the numbers
you have figured here of classes would represent an in
crease or decrease, do you? A. No, I do not. I did not
figure this report; the assistant superintendent did.
Q. Another question about this, Mr. Smith, how could you
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Gross
1366a
determine that yon would need five sections of the ninth
grade English class with 132 students, assuming your pro
jected figure here is correct? A. Of course, you like to
have English classes small.
Q. Do you have today the average class size for the ninth
grade in the Bunn school? A. No.
Q. Do you have the average class size for the ninth grade
in the Gethsemane school? A. No.
Q. Then, the projected figure you have here might he
less than the number you presently have in the class; is
that correct? A. It might be.
—151—
Q. Mr. Smith, from what you are saying, then, it is
possible for you to combine the classes of these two schools
and teach with the same number of teachers that you now
have?
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
•Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
Mr. Yarborough: We object, if your Honor please,
as to whether it is possible.
The Court: Overruled.
A. Well, of course, most anything is possible.
Q. And it is possible that if you combined these two
schools and use the grades 9-through 12 at one school that
you would have the same average class size that you now
have at the two schools? A. Ask that question again,
please.
Q. It’s possible that if you combined the two schools and
use the same number of teachers that you would have the
same average class size that you now have at the two
schools? A. It’s possible, but not very probable.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, I show you an exhibit attached to
1367a
the Government’s Motion to require the defendants to
eliminate educational disparities at the schools, which is
Appendix F to that exhibit, and ask if you would state
the average class size at the Bunn school as appears on
that exhibit?
Mr. Yarborough: We object, if the Court please.
If your Honor please, I think that that is not now
—152-
current. If he would qualify it by the year or the
date—
The Court: Objection overruled. He can state
whether it is current or not.
A. Bunn school—26.4.
Q. Now, would you state the average class size at the
Gethsemane school as appears on that exhibit? A. 32.8.
Now, this is enrollment.
Q. That’s the average class size that appears on that
exhibit, is it not? A. They also have here ADA, average
daily attendance, which says 24 for Bunn and 24.7 for
Gethsemane.
Q. Are not your answers to interrogatories also based
on enrollment? A. I ’ll have to see the interrogatories.
Q. (Showing interrogatories to witness.) The figure that
you gave a moment ago, which is Exhibit C to the answers
to interrogatories filed by the defendant in April of 1967.
A. This is those who are assigned.
Q. That is not the enrollment? A. Well, eventually we
assume it will be the enrollment when they enter the
school.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—-for Defendants—Cross
1368a
Q. That is the projected enrollment? A. Which is the
equivalent to enrollment, yes.
—153—
Q. Now, I also show you the exhibit that was attached
to Mr. Stormer’s deposition. Let me inquire: Have you
had a chance to study the exhibit of Mr. Stormer’s which
was attached to his deposition? A. Certain parts of it,
yes.
Q. Have you studied in the exhibit attached to his depo-
sion the pupil-teacher ratio at the Bunn and Gethsemane
schools? A. No. I can’t find it in mine.
Q. I call to your attention, Mr. Smith, to Attachment 3
appearing in the exhibit of Mr. Stormer’s which was filed
in connection with his deposition. A. Yes.
Q. Do you have there the pupil-teacher ratio at the Bunn
school for the year 1967-68?
Mr. Schwelb: Your Honor, if you would like to
have a copy of this we can make one available to
you.
The Court: Yes, I would like to have it.
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor please, may I see
what it is?
B y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Do you have before you, Mr. Smith, the average class
size or pupil-teacher ratio for the Bunn school for the
1967-68 school year? A. No.
—154—
Q. Is that the projected figure? A. What are you re
ferring to? I mean the number of the attachment?
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants— Cross
1369a
Q. Attachment No. 3. A. No, I don’t have it. I have
Attachment 3, but I do not have what you are asking for.
Q. Does it show the pupil-room ratio? A. Yes.
Q. And what is the pupil-room ratio for the Bunn school!
A. 24.2.
Q. What is the pupil-room ratio for Gethsemane school?
A. 25.5.
Q. Gethsemane school? A. I ’m looking over here at the
high school. 28.2. I would like to add here that we are
finding many mistakes in this. I have not finished working
it all up, but these figures in my opinion are not accurate.
Q. Have you found a mistake in the pupil-room, ratio
for Gethsemane school? A. Yes.
Q. What is your corrected figure? A. Well, the one I
have right here, figured this morning, is 27.4.
—155—
Q. And what is it for the high school? A. 23.5.
Q. For Gethsemane? A. Yes.
The Court: I have before me Attachment III in
Roman numerals, “Rank, Order. Pupil-Room Ratio,”
and there are three columns there. I have some
difficulty in knowing what the different columns
represent.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, if I might explain,
Column 1 represents, according to the deposition of
Mr. Stormer, the combined elementary and high
schools. Column 2 represents the elementary school,
and Column 3 represents the high school.
Now, I asked Mr. Smith the figure that Mr.
Stormer had for the elementary school.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1370a
Q. And would you state that figure again, Mr. Smith?
A. For which school?
Q. Gethsemane. A. 28.2.
Q. I ’m talking about the figure appearing in the second
column. A. Elementary school!
—156—
Q. Elementary school, yes. A. Elementary school, 32.8.
Q. And the figure appearing in the third column for
Gethsemane school? A. 25.5.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, would you state how you deter
mined the pupil-teacher ratio at each school? A. I had
our bookkeeper working on this this morning, and he found
discrepancies. I did not have time to go into all of this.
Mr. Schwelb: Objection to hearsay, your Honor.
I don’t think he can testify that somebody else found
discrepancies, really.
B y the C o u r t :
Q. Well, is that what you are saying? That someone
else found discrepancies, or you found them? A. I had
him under my supervision working these out.
Mr. Chambers: I think that we can correct this,
your Honor.
B y M r. C h am bers:
Q. Mr. Smith, can you testify that the figures Mr.
Stormer has are incorrect? A. I can testify that it is my
belief that a number of them are incorrect.
Q. Have you checked those figures personally to de-
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1371a
Transcript of Trial—-.July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
—157—
termine whether they are accurate or inaccurate? A. I
have checked some of the figures personally, yes, sir.
Q. Have you checked the pupil-classroom ratios to de
termine whether they are accurate or inaccurate? A. I
am not sure about that. I possibly did check some of
these.
Q. Can you testify today that you have checked those
and can tell whether they are accurate or inaccurate? A.
I can testify that it’s my belief that they are not accurate.
Q. My question, though, Mr. Smith, is: Have you per
sonally checked them to determine whether they are ac
curate or inaccurate? A. No.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, appearing in this Exhibit 31, which
is the Principals’ Monthly Report, is the total enrollment
of pupils in the school; is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. Which also shows the total enrollment per class?
A. Yes.
Q. The total membership per class? A. Yes.
Q. And the sum of daily membership? A. Yes.
—158—
Q. Ho you have there, Mr. Smith, anywhere in that re
port the number of classrooms in the school? A. No.
Q. Ho you have the number of teachers in the school?
A. No.
Q. Ho you know the number of classrooms at Gethsemane
school? A. Yes.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, we would like to
mark these as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 3. They are the
Principals’ Pinal Report for the year 1965-66.
Mr. Yarborough: I understood, your Honor, that
1372a
all they want is to mark these for identification at
the moment.
The Court: Very well. Have these already been
identified and attached as exhibits to some deposi
tion previously!
Mr. Schwelb: At the time we took depositions,
your Honor, last year, we marked and offered in
evidence today, thirty trial exhibits which we en
tered with the depositions. One of them was Exhibit
29 which we have headed as “Index” in one of the
volumes of these depositions, I think Volume No. 4,
as material that were taken from the State Depart
ment of Public Instruction. Those include all of
—159—
those principals’ final reports in each school for the
year 1965-66.
The Court: Now, it is going to be confusing if
they are put in again under a different number.
Mr. Chambers: I was using them here, your
Honor, only for the purpose of identification.
Mr. Schwelb: These are Government’s Exhibit 29.
B y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Mr. Smith, I ’ll show you the Principal’s Final Report
Gethsemane school for the 1965-66 school year, and ask
if appearing on that report is the number of classrooms
per school! A. Yes.
Q. I ask if also appearing on that report is not the
number of teachers in the school! A. Yes.
Q. I show you also from that exhibit the Principal’s
Final Report for Bunn for the year 1965-66, and ask if
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1373a
that doesn’t also show the number of teachers and the
number of classrooms? A. Yes.
Q. Now, in determining the number of teachers per
pupil, would you state to the court how you would proceed
—160-
in doing that? A. You say the number of teachers per
pupil?
Q. Number of pupils per teacher. A. Say the number
of teachers into the—whether you are figuring on ADA or
your enrollment, you divide it into your enrollment or
your ADA.
Q. And what is your ADA? A. Average daily attend
ance.
Q. So you can determine the pupils per teacher by con
sidering the number of teachers and dividing them into the
number of pupils? A. That’s correct.
Q. Would you also include in the number of teachers
the librarian? A. I think it’s generally done.
Q. Do you get an accurate figure in determining the
number of students per teacher by using the librarian?
A. Yes, I would think so.
Q. Do you also include the special education teacher?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it not true that the State requires that you have
fewer teachers for the special education classes than the
regular teachers? A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Then do you still use the special education teacher?
—161-—
A. Yes, I would think so.
Q. Is it not true, Mr. Smith, to get an accurate figure
of the pupil-teacher ratio for the school, you should con
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1374a
sider only the teachers teaching the regular classrooms?
A. I would not say it’s necessarily true.
Q. How would you determine the number of pupils per
classroom? A. You would say the number of classrooms
that you have into the ADA or enrollment, whichever you
want to figure it on.
Q. Do you consider the vocational rooms? A. Yes.
Q. Do you consider the auditorium? A. No.
Q. Do you consider the gymnasium? A. No.
Q, Mr. Smith, you mentioned that you adhere to the
writings of an author who suggests it is more advan
tageous that you have fewer students in the classroom?
A. I did not say that.
Q. Would you say that it is preferable to have fewer
students in the high school? A. I did not say that.
Q. Would you state whether you prefer having a larger
high school or a smaller high school? A. You want my
—1 6 2 -
personal opinion?
Q. Yes, sir. A. My personal opinion would be small
high schools.
Q. Now, you mentioned that an author by the name of
Baker suggested several advantages of the smaller high
school? A. Yes.
Q. Do you have an optimum number of students for
the high school that you are referring to? A. No, I do
not.
Q. Would you prefer a school with 100 students? A. It
depends upon howT much money you have to put the teachers
there to teach the classes. I would say that a 100-teacher
high school could be a very good high school.
Q. Are you stating that in your professional opinion it
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants— Cross
1375a
is preferable to have a school with 100 students than a
school with 600 students? A. It depends upon how much
money you can put into that school to offer the students
the subjects, and so forth.
Q. Are you stating to the Court that it is preferable to
have a school with 200 students and have four or five high
schools in the county with that number of students? Or
to have one school with a combination of all the high school
students ?
—163—
The Court: Now, read that question back.
Mr. Chambers: I will repeat it, your Honor. I
agree it’s rather long.
Q. Are you stating to the Court that in your opinion
it’s preferable to have five high schools with 100 students
each, or one high school with a combination of all the
students ?
Mr. Yarborough: May I inquire if he’s asking his
opinion? He is just asking is it preferable. I assume
he is speaking of Mr. Smith’s opinion.
The Court: Well, I assume that he is going to give
his opinion.
A. Ask the question again.
B y the C o u r t:
Q. The question is : Is it better to have five high schools
in a school system with 100 students each, or one consoli
dated high school with 500 pupils?
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1376a
The Court: Did I quote you correctly!
Mr. Chambers: Tes, your Honor.
A. I would have to know much about the factors concerned
before I could give you a definite answer on that.
B y M r. C h am bers:
Q. Considering the Franklin County school system, is it
better to have five schools with 100 students each, or one
—1 6 4 -
school with a combination of all of the students! A. I
would still have to make an additional study of it.
Q. I understood you to state positively, Mr. Smith—and
maybe I misunderstood you—that according to the report
or book of Mr. Baker which you adhere to that it was
preferable to have a smaller school.
Mr. Yarborough: We object, if your Honor please.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants— Cross
A. No.
Mr. Yarborough: I don’t think he testified he ad
heres to it. He said he had read it.
The Court: Overruled. He can make any correc
tions that he desires if the question has misstated
his testimony.
A. I believe the question was asked had I heard or did I
know of anyone who had given some advantages for a small
high school, and that was what I testified to.
Q. Mr. Smith, do you know of any present report of the
1377a
State Board of Education regarding consolidation of
schools? A. Schools in the State?
Q. Yes, sir. A. No, not—
Q. Let me attempt to be more specific. Did you receive
—165—
a directive from the State Board of Education regarding
the consolidation of schools in Franklin County? A. I
don’t know what you are referring to.
Q. Since you have been superintendent of schools in
Franklin County, have you received a report from, the State
Board of Education regarding the consolidation of schools?
A. Yes, several years ago.
Q. Did you not receive such a report recently? A. I
don’t know what you are referring to.
Q. Mr. Smith, do you know whether the State Board of
Education has recommended consolidation of schools be
cause it’s more advantageous to the school board and to
the students? A. No, I don’t know that.
Q. You don’t know. Now, I ’ll show you a copy of a report
which we would like to have marked as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit-
No. 4.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
The Court: While counsel are examining this pro
posed exhibit I want to ask this witness a question.
B y the C ou rt:
Q. It is my recollection, Mr. Smith, that you testified
that three authors by the name of Edmonson—and did you
sayRomer? A. Yes, sir.
—166—
Q. And Baker, the third? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had listed certain advantages of small high schools.
1378a
And you enumerated nine different advantages which these
three authors had enumerated in their writings, as I un
derstood your testimony. Now, since the question has
arisen as to what is meant by large schools or small schools,
what did Edmonson, Romer and Baker indicate as the size
of these small high schools to which they attributed nine
several advantages? A. I did not find this in this book.
In fact, I looked through it last night again looking for
the same question that you have just asked, and I looked
through several other books that I had to find the answer
to the question you have just asked.
Q. Then, do I understand that these three authors wrote
a treatise in which they outlined nine advantages of small
schools and neglected to ever say what they meant by
the small high school? A. I did not see it. I ’m not saying
it’s not in there.
B y M r. C h am bers:
Q. Mr. Smith, I show you a report which has been marked
as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 4 and ask if you know anything
about that report? A. Yes.
—167—
Q. Is that not a report that was prepared by a special
committee appointed by the Franklin County Board of
Education to deal with or to consider the problem of con
solidation of schools in Franklin County? A. Yes.
Q. Is it not the recommendation of that committee that
your schools be consolidated according to the report of
the State Board of Education? A. Yes.
Q. I call your attention to the sixth page of that report
and ask if you would read or state whether that does not
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1379a
recommend specifically that the schools be consolidated or
constructed according to the report of the State Board of
Education! A. Do you want me to read this!
Q. You don’t have to read it. Just state whether it does.
A. No, it doesn’t specifically.
Q. What does it state, then, Mr. Smith? A. It says
their recommendation—it recommends to the Franklin
County Board of Education the adoption of the school sur
vey made by the Division of School Planning.
B y the C o u rt:
Q. The adoption of what? A. The school survey made
—168—
by the Division of School Planning, North Carolina De
partment of Public Instruction, on Franklin County, 1963.
B y M r. C h a m b ers:
Q. I ask you, Mr. Smith, if that school survey did not
recommend consolidation of schools in Franklin County?
A. Yes.
Q. I ask you further, Mr. Smith, is it not true that the
purport or tenor of the whole report, which is Plaintiffs’
Exhibit, for purpose of identification, No. 4, that the schools
in Franklin County be consolidated?
Mr. Yarborough: We object to the “tenor.”
The Court: Overruled.
A. What was the question?
(Last question read by Reporter.)
A. I guess to some degree that would be correct.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1380a
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, is it not true that most school boards
in North Carolina are attempting to consolidate schools,
because they determine that it would offer better educa
tional advantages to the students?
Mr. Davis: Objection.
The Court: Now, if he knows, it’s a competent
question. Go ahead sir. If he doesn’t, he can say so.
A. I could not say. I could not be sure of their reasons.
—169—
Q. Is it not true that they are consolidating? A. A num
ber of administrative units are consolidating.
Q. Is it not also true that a number of units in which
city and county units are located are consolidating the
county and city units? A. I have heard of several, yes.
Q. In fact, you have also consolidated several schools
in Franklin County yourself, haven’t you? A. Since when?
Q. Since 1954? A. Several, yes.
Q. And that has been the consolidation of Negro or pre
dominantly Negro schools with other predominantly Negro
schools? A. I don’t know whether that is exactly accurate
or not.
Q. Mr. Smith, going to the exhibits—
The Court: Excuse me one minute, Mr. Chambers.
I see that you are beginning to change the subject
matter. This is a good time to take a recess. I think
it is better to do it at this point than right in the
middle of something.
(Whereupon, a recess was taken at 5:25 p.m. on
Tuesday, July 25, 1967, until 9:30 a.m., Wednesday,
July 26, 1967.)
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1381a
—171—
Morning Session
July 26, 1967
The Court: Let Mr. Smith resume the stand. Mr.
Chambers, you may continue your cross examination.
B y M r. C h am bers:
Q. Mr. Smith, during the recess, did you have a chance
to reconsider the figures that you were testifying about
on yesterday! A. Yes,
Q. Did you consider again the allotment of teachers at
the schools if Gethsemane and Bunn were combined! A.
I thought you were referring to this Table III of the
Stormer Report when you asked me the first question.
Q. Well, you did not then consider the matter of the
allotment of teachers with the consolidation of Gethse
mane and Bunn! A. No.
Q. And you did not consider the course offerings that
could be offered if Gethsemane and Bunn were combined!
A. No.
Q. The only thing that you did consider then was the.
Attachment III of Mr. Stormer’s Exhibit! A. Yes.
—172—
Q. Do you have a copy of that attachment! A. Yes.
Q. You do have a copy? A. Yes.
Q. We were asking yesterday the pupil-room ratio for
Gethsemane school, considering the high school and the
elementary school together? A. Yes.
Q. Do you have that now? A. Yes. This is 28.2.
Q. We asked also the pupil-room ratio for the elementary
school. Do you have that ? A. That is 32.8. If you include
the special education position, it would be 31.1.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1382a
Q. Do you mean the special education room? A. And
also the pupils.
Q. And the special education pupils? A. Yes.
Q. Excluding the special education room and the special
education pupils, would the pupil-room ratio be 32.8? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. What is the pupil-room ratio for the high school? A.
25.5.
—173—
Q. Mr. Smith, isn’t it true that this figure would also be
fairly representative of the pupil-teacher ratio? A. I
don’t know right off.
Q. Generally you would have a teacher for each of the
classes, would you not? A. Oh, yes, yes.
Q. And if your pupil-room ratio would be 28.2, this
would be fairly representative of the pupil-teacher ratio,
would it not? A. Yes.
Q. Now, do you have the figure for Bunn? A. Yes.
Q. What is the pupil-room ratio for Bunn? A. Total
24.2.
Q. And the elementary would be what? A. 24.3.
Q. And the high school would be what? A. 24.1.
Q. Now, did you have a chance to consider during the
recess the matter of the consolidation of schools in terms
of the preference of small high schools or large high
schools? A. No, other than what I said yesterday.
Q. Do you now have a figure for what you would con
sider a small high school? A. Yes, I do have, and I did
- 1 7 4 -
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith-—for Defendants— Cross
find it in this book last night.
1383a
B y the C o u r t:
Q. Whose book? What book! A. This was Edmonson,
Eomer and Baker. And in this book it stated that the typi
cal size of the schools in the United States is fewer than
200 students.
Q. Is that high schools? A. High schools.
B y M r. C h a m bers:
Q. Are you testifying that it is their recommendation
that high schools be less than 200? A. No. I ’m testifying
that this is a statement that came out of this book.
Q. Isn’t it true, Mr. Smith, that they recommend a larger
high school than that? A. I did not see this recommenda
tion in this book last night.
B y the C ou rt:
Q. Well, now, just a moment, Mr. Smith. If I under
stand you, in your testimony this morning you state that
Edmonson, Romer and Baker stated in their book that the
typical size of high schools in the United States is less than
200? A. Yes, sir.
—175—
Q. Well, do they anywhere say what they consider is a
small high school as distinguished from a large high school?
A. They say that they consider that a school that has over
a thousand students to be a large high school.
Q. Well, do you infer from that, that anything less than
a thousand is a small one? A. Well, I would infer from
that, that they would consider fewer than 200 students a
small school, and anywhere from 200 to a 1000 as a medium
size school.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1384a
Q. Now, that’s your inference; you infer that! A. Yes,
sir.
B y M r. C h am bers:
Q. Mr. Smith, isn’t it true that the preferable number of
students is in a range between 600 and 1200? A. I have
not been able to find any widespread agreement by so-
called authorities on this.
Q. Isn’t it the generally accepted view in the educational
field that a school with from 600 to 1200 students can offer
a more economical and a better educational program? A.
Some have said that it’s more economical.
Q. Have they not also said that it’s possible for that
size school to offer a better educational program? A.
Some have said, yes.
Q. And is that not the testimony of Mr. Stormer?
—176—
Mr. Yarborough: Overruled, as he understands it.
A. The best I can understand, Mr. Stormer did not come
out definitely to say. He says there are many factors to
consider in this.
Q. I’m talking about in terms of size of school. A. Oh,
size?
Q. Yes. A. Yes.
Q. Did he not say as you understood his testimony, that
the preferable educational program can be offered with a
school of from 600 to 1200 students? A. I don’t remember
those exact figures in there.
Q. Now, defendants Exhibits 3, 4, and 5, which have
been introduced in evidence, show the Louisburg High
School; is that correct? We have stipulated that already.
A. No.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1385a
Q. I mean the Riverside High School. I’m sorry. A.
Yes.
Q. Now, Exhibit 3 shows the high school and the ele
mentary school! A. Yes.
Q. Is the vocational building shown in that picture! A.
No.
Q. I believe the vocational building is partly wood struc-
—177—
tured and block structured, is that correct? A. Yes. Most
of our vocational buildings are.
Q. Do you know why the vocational building wasn’t
shown on that picture? A. No. Other than you get to
show more buildings by this view.
Q. Do you know why it wasn’t shown on Exhibits 4 and
5? A. No. Other than this gives you a view of more of
the buildings.
Q. In fact, the vocational building is a bit older than
those buildings shown on those pictures, is it not! A. Yes.
Q. And you don’t have a walkway to that building, do
you—to the vocational building? A. I ’m pretty sure we
do.
Q. A cement walkway? A. Yes, I’m pretty sure we do.
Q. From which building to the vocational building? A.
From the gymnatorium to the vocational building.
Q. Isn’t the gymnatorium in the vocational building ? A.
In the vocational building?
Q. Aren’t they connected? A. No.
Q. Now, the vocational building is down the hill from
—178—
the elementary building? A. Yes.
Q. Do you have a walkway from the elementary building
—cement walkway from the elementary building to the
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— f o r Defendants—Cross
1386a
vocational building? A. From the elementary building to
the vocational building?
Q. Yes, sir. A. I ’m not sure. There is a cement walk
from one elementary building to the next elementary build
ing, and then from that elementary building to the voca
tional building which is several feet—I ’m not sure, but
I ’m almost positive from the gymnatorium to the voca
tional building there is a paved walk.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, the gymnatorium is not shown on
that picture, either, is it? A. No.
Q. And I believe as distinguished from Riverside, you
have a gymnatorium rather than a separate gymnasium
and auditorium? A. That’s correct, a gymnatorium.
Q. And do you have a cement walkway from the ele
mentary or high school building to the gymnatorium at
Riverside? A. I am not absolutely sure. Between one of
-—179—
the elementary buildings and the gymnatorium.
Q. Don’t you also teach courses in the gymnatorium?
A. In the classrooms in the gymnatorium, yes.
Q. Which are located in the bottom of the gymnatorium?
A. Yes.
Q. And I believe the gymnatorium is also an older build
ing than those buildings shown on Exhibits 3, 4, and 5?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you could not testify, could you, Mr. Smith,
that the outside features of Riverside are as good as the
outside features at Louisburg, could you? A. You mean
the total?
Q. The total. A. The total, no.
The Court: Now, what is meant by outside fea
tures ?
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants— Cross
1387a
Mr. Chambers: I was talking about the ground
area and the walkways and the outside appearance
of the buildings.
Q. Is that correct, Mr. Smith? A. That’s correct.
Q. And I believe at Louisburg you have covered walk
ways, do you not? A. Over some of the wralks.
—ISO—
Q. Connecting practically all of the buildings? A. Yes.
Q. Now, in Exhibits 1 and 2 you show the football field
at Louisburg; is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. Now, do you not have a separate baseball field at
Louisburg? A. Yes.
Q. Do you not have two tennis courts there? A. I don’t
know whether it’s one or two. We do have a tennis court.
Q. Do you not have a track field there? A. If they
have it, it’s in conjunction with the football field.
B y the C o u r t :
Q. What school are you testifying concerning now? A.
Louisburg School.
Q. Where is your home; where do you live? A. In
Louisburg.
Q. Where is your principal office? A. In Louisburg.
B y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, you don’t have those facilities at
Riverside, do you—a separate baseball field and tennis
court? A. No.
—181—
Q. You don’t have a lighted field at Riverside either, do
you? A. No.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1388a
Q. Now, you testified yesterday that many of these fa
cilities at Louisburg have been contributed by private citi
zens? A. Yes.
Q. These sponsored new fields or activities are admin -
istered by the Board of Education, are they not! A. Ask
that again, please.
Q. I’ll withdraw the question. Now, you testified yester
day that many of the surrounding counties offer teacher
supplements? A. Yes.
Q. Does Warren County surround Franklin County? A.
Yes.
Q. Does it offer teacher supplements? A. Not to my
knowledge ?
Q. Does Vance County adjoin Franklin County? A.
Yes.
Q. Does it offer teacher supplements? A. The County
does not, but it is my understanding that the city system
does.
Q. Are you testifying that the city system does? A. It
— 182—
is my understanding in some cases.
Q. To teachers generally, or to special teachers! A. I
don’t know. I don’t know whether they do or not. It was
my general impression that they did.
Q. What other counties adjoin Franklin County? A.
Nash.
Q. Does it offer teacher supplements? A. I think Rocky
Mount City does; I’m pretty sure it does.
Q. Does Nash County offer teacher supplements? A.
Not to my knowledge.
Q. Wake County adjoins Franklin County? A. Yes.
Q. Does it offer teacher supplements? A. Yes.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants— Cross
1389a
Q. Are those the adjoining counties to Franklin County!
A. Yes.
Q. So of those you think that two of the city systems
located within the adjoining counties and one of the ad
joining counties offer teacher supplements? A. That is
about right, yes.
Q. And the other counties do not? A. The adjoining
counties? Not to my knowledge.
Q. Do you not offer supplements to vocational teachers?
A. No.
—183—
Q. Do you offer supplements to coaches? A. No. The
Board of Education does not.
Q. I believe some of the schools do, though, do they not?
A. Yes.
Q. I believe Riverside offers a supplement to the coach,
does it not? A. I’m not sure about that.
Q. Does Bunn offer a supplement to the coach? A. I
would say that most of the schools do offer a supplement
to the coaches. I mean it would be almost impossible to
get one to do these extra duties without it.
Q. Now, you say the Board does not offer the supple
ment? A. No. The schools; they make up the money
themselves.
Q. So the coach at Louisburg would receive a higher
suppplement than the coach at Riverside? A. It depends
upon how much money they can raise.
Q. You don’t know how much money they have been
paying the coaches? A. No.
Q. At none of the schools? A. I have an idea, but I
do not know specifically.
Q. What is your idea of what they pay the coach at
Riverside ? A. I do not know that they pay a supplement.
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1390a
Q. Isn’t it true, Mr. Smith, that the coach at Riverside
receives less than the coach at Louisburg! A. I do not
know what the coach at Riverside gets as a supplement.
B y the C o u r t:
Q. Now, at this point how do these schools raise the
money with which they supplement their coaches’ salaries!
A. Well, they depend upon gate receipts, and they depend
on the parents boosting the school functions—the athletics.
Q. How do they do that! A. Donations. And some
times they sponsor a supper, barbecue supper, or some
thing of that sort, and various ways similar to that.
Q. Do the teachers and the students undertake any
activities such as selling candies and cakes and postcards
and magazine subscriptions and that sort of thing—canvass
the town! A. Yes, sir, that does exist.
Q. Do you as a school man and a superintendent think
that is a profitable way for the teachers and students to
use their time! A. No, sir. I think it is a very expensive
way of getting money.
—185—
B y M r, C h am bers:
Q. Mr. Smith, you testified yesterday that certain schools
in Franklin County were qualified under ESEA to receive
Federal funds under Title 1? A. Yes.
Q. Now, you used the figure of 53% of the students
whose income was less than the required amount as being
necessary to have a qualified school! A. Yes.
Q. Is the percentage that is required! A. I believe it is.
When we made the survey two years ago, it was.
Q. Now, I show you your Directions for Title 1, Ele
mentary and Secondary Education Act of 1965, which is
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants— Cross
1391a
issued, is it not, by the State Board of Education? A.
The State Department of Public Instruction, yes.
Q. Do you have in there the percentage that is required
in order for a school to be qualified to receive Federal
funds? A. I don’t know whether I can put my hand on it
if it’s in here, but we had directions in the very beginning
of Title 1 ESEA as to the formula to follow in finding
the qualifying schools.
Q. Maybe I can shorten this, Mr. Smith. If you combine,
—186—
for example, Gethsemane and Bunn, would not those stu
dents who are now qualified to receive Federal funds con
tinue as being able to receive Federal funds under Title 1?
A. If you consolidate it, I do not know. Now, if as many
as ten qualifying students transfer, I reckon—
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, don’t you know that there are more
than ten students in the high school department at Geth
semane who are qualified to receive Federal funds under
Title 1? A. Yes. But what I was trying to say, I would
imagine that they would require us to go back and re
figure this again.
Q. Would you turn to page 6 and 7 of this publication.
Does it not state that if as many as 10 students transfer
that they would continue to receive Federal funds? A.
They would be eligible for Federal funds under Title 1,
yes.
Q. And it doesn’t make any difference whether the school
to which they transfer is qualified or not; is that correct ?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Again, if you were to consolidate Gethsemane and
Bunn, would not the students who are qualified to receive
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1392a
Federal funds continue as qualified to receive such funds?
—187—
A. If they were considered transfers, yes.
Q. Would you read on page 7 the first full paragraph!
A. (Reading) “This procedure would also apply to any
transfers made under freedom of choice or other assign
ment plans.”
Q. Now, that procedure is talking about the 10 students
who transfer, is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. And it states that they would continue whether trans
ferred under freedom of choice or any other plan? A. Yes.
Q. Now, if you were to combine Gold Sand and Perry’s,
would not the students who are now qualified to receive
such funds continue to receive such funds? A. If these
students were considered as transfers, yes.
Q. If you were to combine Riverside and Louisburg,
would not the students who are now qualified to receive
those funds continue to receive such funds? A. It’s the
same answer: if they were considered as transfers.
Q. In fact, Mr. Smith, is it not true that not only would
the students who are transferring would continue to re
ceive such funds, but one and one-half times their number
would be eligible? A. That’s correct.
—188—
The Court: Now, Mr. Chambers, he predicates
his answers—and I think I can understand why
from what he has read from a book—on “if” there
was consolidation, the emphasis on “ if” and “if”
by consolidation that was deemed to be a transfer,
they would get it. The question still remains whether
or not the consolidation of two schools is equivalent
under the terms of whatever this is to be a transfer.
Do you know the answer to that?
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants— Cross
1393a
Mr. Chambers: Yes, sir, your Honor. We want
to introduce those two pages from the book, and I
think it will explain.
The Court: Well, can you read into the record now
for my information where there is a statement that
a consolidation of schools is equivalent to a transfer
for the purpose of receiving Title 1 funds?
Mr. Chambers: We interpret the paragraph that
was read: “ This procedure would also apply to any
transfers made under freedom of choice or other
assignment plans.”
The Court: Well, do you consider freedom of
choice tantamount to a consolidation?
—189—
Mr. Chambers: “ . . . or other assignment plans.”
The Court: And “other assignment plans” then
you equate with consolidation?
Mr. Chambers: Yes, sir.
The Court: Assignment plans?
Mr. Chambers: Yes, sir. The consolidation would
result in assignment of students to a particular
school.
The Court: All right.
B y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Mr. Smith, has the School Board made any assign
ment of teachers to the various schools for the 1967-68
school year? A. Yes.
Q. Would you state the number of Negro teachers who
have been assigned to predominantly white schools for the
next school year?
Transcript o f Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1394a
The Court: Now, this is 1967-68 I understand, for
next year?
The Witness: Yes.
A. Negro teachers to predominantly white schools, I be
lieve that’s two.
Q. Now, would you state to what school those two teach
ers have been assigned? A. One to the Louisburg school
—190—
and one to the Bunn school.
Q. Now, I believe the teacher assigned to the Louisburg
School is a librarian? A. This past year. It will be music
this next year, public school music.
Q. And the teacher to Bunn? A. Librarian.
Q. That is the same librarian who was assigned last year?
A. No. Another librarian.
Q. Would you state whether these teachers are being
paid their salary through State funds or federal funds?
A. These would be paid through State funds.
Q. Is this a fulltime position in music at the Louisburg
School? A. Yes. Might have some additional duties as
other teachers would have additional duties.
Q. Could you state what these additional duties might
be? A. Well, some have additional duties as coach, some
have as librarian, or some have additional duties to pos
sibly look after or supervise the school store.
Q. You don’t know the additional duties that the music
teacher will have at Louisburg? A. I ’m not sure at this
point. —191—
Q. Will she be assigned to any other school besides
Louisburg? A. No, not that I know of at this time.
Q. What about the librarian at Bunn—will she be a
fulltime teacher? A. Fulltime librarian.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1395a
Q. Fulltime librarian! A. Yes.
Q. At Bunn! A. Yes.
Q. Will sbe be assigned additional duties also! A. I
would imagine so.
Q. Would sbe also be assigned to any other school be
sides Bunn! A. No.
Q. Would you state the number of white teachers who
have been assigned to predominantly Negro schools! A.
Three.
Q. Now, would you state the schools to which they have
been assigned! A. Two in the Riverside school and one
in the Gethsemane school.
Q. Now, what are the two teachers assigned to Riverside
—192—
to teach! A. One is a librarian and the other is a speech
therapist with possibly additional teaching duties—English
possibly.
Q. Wliat about the teacher at Gethsemane! A. Librar
ian, And I do not know whether she will do some class
room teaching in English or some other area.
Q. Would you state whether these teachers, that is, the
two teachers at Riverside and the one teacher at Geth
semane, are paid their salaries through Federal funds or
State funds! A. Two positions, Federal; one position,
State.
Q. Is not the speech therapist— A. I beg your pardon.
Federal, all three of those.
Q. All three of them are paid for from funds received
under ESEA! A. That’s right.
Q. Your present figures show no projected assignment
of a white teacher to any of the other predominantly Negro
schools! A. The report does not show that.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants— Cross
1396a
Q. Or any Negro teachers to any of the predominantly
white schools besides the Louisburg and Bunn schools?
A. This report does not show it; however, last night I
was talking to a teacher by telephone, a white teacher,
negotiating to go to a predominantly Negro school.
—193—
Q. Now, that would give you one additional white teacher
at one of the predominantly Negro schools! A. Assuming
we can get the person.
Q. You have no additional Negro teachers, however, in
mind to be assigned to predominantly white schools? A.
Not specifically at the moment.
Q. Now Mr. Smith, has the Board taken any steps with
respect to the separate programs at the predominantly
Negro and predominantly white schools? A. What pro
grams ?
Q. Extracurricular activities like, for instance, athletics?
A. No. The individual schools decide.
Q. You haven’t attempted to eliminate this practice of
Negro schools playing Negro schools and white schools
playing white schools? A. We haven’t taken a step in
either direction with this.
Q. Have you taken any steps with respect to the choir
festival which has been composed of only predominantly
white schools?
The Court: Choir what?
Mr. Chambers: Festival.
The Court: Festival?
Mr. Chambers: Yes, sir. There is in the record
- 1 9 4 -
deposition testimony that the school system or some
one has sponsored a choir festival for each year in
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1397a
which the predominantly white schools have par
ticipated.
A. To my knowledge this is a voluntary activity to par
ticipate in.
Q. And you have not thought to bring in the predomi
nantly Negro schools in this activity? A. I do not know
that they have asked.
Q. Have you taken any steps to reroute the present bus
routes to eliminate the duplication of routes? A. The bus
routes are routed to serve the individual schools.
Q. Mr. Smith, isn’t it true that the Board of Education
in Franklin County is responsible for the administration
of the athletic programs at the various schools in Franklin
County? A. (No answer.)
Q. Let me try to refresh your recollection.
The Court: Well, did he answer? I didn’t get an
answer.
Mr. Chambers: No, sir, he didn’t answer it.
A. I would imagine in the final analysis they would be
responsible.
Q. In fact, each school files a report with your office ad-
—195—
vising of the athletic programs at the school each year?
A. They file a list of the students who will participate,
say, in basketball, and according to the number of subjects
that they have passed and that sort of thing, and then
that is forwarded on to the State Department of Public
Instruction. If that’s what you are referring to.
Q. They also advise of the number of hours they have
participated in athletics, and whether they have partiei-
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1398a
pated in athletics during school hours, et cetera, do they
not! A. There is a report in which they have to indicate
this.
Q. And your office or the Board is responsible to the
State Board of Education for seeing that the athletic pro
grams are administered pursuant to the State regulations ?
A. Yes.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
Mr. Chambers: Thank you. I have no further
questions.
The Court: Anything further of this witness?
Mr. Schwelb: Yes, sir, your Honor.
C ross E xam in ation by M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Mr. Smith, you testified yesterday that certain pic-
—196—
tures purporting to be of the Riverside school, taken by
the FBI man which you said Mr. Stormer described as
being of the Riverside school, wTere not actually of the
Riverside school; is that true? A. That’s correct.
Q. And do you recollect Mr. Stormer’s testimony and
the occasion when it was taken? You were present, weren’t
you? A. Yes.
Q. And at that time these pictures were put into evi
dence, weren’t they? A. Yes, they were presented at that
time. I assume they were put into evidence.
Q. And there was a list of pictures prepared by the
FBI agent, wasn’t there, in which each picture was de
scribed as to what it was; it that true ? A. I believe that
was told—that the FBI prepared the photographs.
Q. It was suggested by both Mr. Yarborough and me
1399a
that you check them over, was it not, to make sure they
were accurate? A. Yes.
Q. And a few days later, as a matter of fact, I believe
you made some corrections, didn’t you? A. (No answer.)
—197—
Q. And one or two things were changed as a result of
your explaining that there was a mistake? A. I pointed
out, it seems to me—or someone pointed out some dis
crepancies.
Q. And that was altered by consent of Mr. Yarborough
and me, wasn’t it, after you had pointed them out? A.
No, I don’t know about that.
Q. Well, certainly you never pointed this error out be
fore, did you? A. I thought I did.
Q. Well, certainly you are not suggesting that there was
some malicious intent to pretend that something was a
part of Riverside—
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
Q. —that wasn’t Riverside, are you? A. I do not know
what the intent was.
Q. Well, you didn’t point it out earlier to me, did you?
A. I thought I did. Or I thought it was pointed out.
Q. Was it changed on the exhibit, on the index to the
exhibit, if you remember, together with the other changes
that were made? Well, I will withdraw the question, your
Honor. The record will speak for itself. A. I don’t know
whether it was changed or not.
Q. Now, you were talking about the lights on the foot-
—198-
ball field at Louisburg being furnished by sources other
than the Board? A. Yes.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1400a
Q. And the seating and the shrubbery also? A. Yes.
Q. And what sources are those that contribute those
things? A. I believe on the shrubbery, to the best of
my knowledge, that the Garden Club ladies do that as a
project, and it seems that the Parent Teacher Association
also took it as a project.
Q. Is the Garden Club a club of a particular school or
the whole city, or what? A. I imagine the city.
Q. The City of Louisburg? A. Yes.
Q. Is that an integrated club or a segregated club? A.
I do not know.
Q. And the PTA groups are ordinarily by school, are
they not? A. Yes.
Q. And the PTA groups are not restricted to giving
things like lights to football fields; they give books, too,
don’t they? A. Yes, they do, quite often.
Q. And what else do they give to the school? A. Some-
—1 9 9 -
times a particular projector that is needed in the school
or various things that they feel might help.
Q. And they give that to a particular school? A. Yes.
Q. And it’s kept in that particular school; isn’t that
true? A. Yes.
Q. And I suppose by and large that they give it to the
school where their children go? A. Yes, I would think so.
I would guess also that people who do not have children
in school make donations.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, do you know if the Negroes in
Franklin County are as rich as the white people in Franklin
County as a rule? A. I do not know, but I do not think so.
Q. Well, did you know, for example, that 87% of the
Negro families make less than $3000 a year? A. I believe
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1401a
that’s about what the people who ran a survey under the
Elementary and Secondary Education Act came out with.
Q. Do you know that the median white family income in
Franklin County, according to the 1960 Census, was a
little over $3500 and the Negro median income was a little
under $1300? Did you know that? A. Not specifically, I
did not know that.
— 200—
Q. It doesn’t surprise you, does it?
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
The Court: Overruled.
A. Now, what census are you referring to?
Q. I ’m asking you whether the significant disparity be
tween the white and Negro income surprises you? A. It
seems that I read something of the 1960 Census.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, at the present time all of the white
students in Franklin County go to predominantly white
schools, don’t they? A. Yes.
Q. And approximately 98.5% of the Negro students go
to all-Negro schools—all Negro in student population? A.
I would say you have that approximately, yes.
Q. So certainly these white patrons of the schools can
afford to give money to the schools much more easily than
Negro patrons, can’t they?
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
The Court: Well, it’s a conclusion, but overruled.
A. You would think so, but sometimes the more money you
have, the more obligations you have.
Q. Now, of course, if the present rate of assignment of
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1402a
Negro students to predominantly white schools continues,
certainly the probability remains that the predominantly
- 201-
white schools will continue to get books and lights and
things of that kind more easily than the Negro schools.
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
The Court: Overruled.
A. I don’t know.
Q. Well, that’s what has always happened up until now,
isn’t it? A. I don’t know. In the predominantly Negro
schools I have seen new activity buses when in some of
the other schools they were driving a surplus school bus.
So—
Q. Let’s take books, Mr. Smith. Isn’t it true that the
number of books in the predominantly white schools is
very substantially higher, even now, than it is in the pre
dominantly Negro schools? A. No, sir, I don’t agree
with that.
Q. Well, it was about ninety-four prior to the Federal
assistance, wasn’t it, according to the reports of the State
Department of Public Instruction? A. I believe that’s
what you stated.
Q. Well, those figures were taken from your principals’
reports, weren’t they? A. I believe you stated they were.
Q. Well, have you found that the mathematics is wrong
in your principals’ reports? A. No.
—202—
Q. You haven’t, have you? A. I didn’t check it that
closely.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1403a
Q. You just testified yesterday that those figures are
no longer true, didn’t you! A. Yes.
Q. And the principal reason for that, Mr. Smith, is that
the Federal Government has given the predominantly
Negro schools a very large amount of assistance under
the Elementary and Secondary Education Act? A. That
has been a great help.
Q. And that has been to the predominantly Negro
schools? A. Title 1, yes. But Title 2, of course, goes to
all of the schools.
Q. Now, if the schools were composed of a closer ratio
of white people and Negroes, then the Negroes would be
more likely to participate in the receipt of gifts now being
made to white schools or predominantly white schools?
A. There would not be any differentiation, I wouldn’t think.
Q. Now, this lighting that was given to the Louisburg
school, at the moment about 99% of the students who benefit
from that are white, aren’t they? Or 98% A. I would
say any student in the school who was eligible to go out,
could participate, and any spectator who came.
—203—
Q. Well, let’s take the students. Now, there are about
700 white students at Louisburg; isn’t that true? A. Yes.
Q. And about 30 Negro students? A. Yes.
Q. I repeat; isn’t it true that at least with the students
the people who benefit from this are about 98% or so
white, or 96%—97% ? A. Approximately.
Q. Now, if Louisburg and Riverside were consolidated,
that would no longer be true, would it? A. (No answer.)
Mr. Schwelb: I withdraw the question, your
Honor.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1404a
B y the C o u r t:
Q. Do you understand the question? A. No, I didn’t
quite get it.
Q. What he is saying is this, as I understand it: that
at the present time there are a great many more white
students than there are Negro students—the percentage as
propounded in his question some 98% white and some 2%
Negro—who utilize these facilities; and, therefore, 98%
of the children who utilize them being white and 2% of
the children utilizing these facilities being colored, that
—204—
there are a larger per cent of white children who enjoy the
facilities than there are Negro children? A. Yes.
Q. That if you consolidate the Negro school with the
white school and you have a larger per cent of Negroes
and a smaller per cent, comparatively speaking, of white,
would there not be more Negroes enjoying those facilities
than there are in the segregated school? A. Yes, sir.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Mr. Smith, you have testified, I think—and it is cer
tainly your position, isn’t it—that the choice in Franklin
County has been completely free, and that the Board hasn’t
put its weight on either side of that choice at any time;
isn’t that true? A. (No answer.)
Q. That the students have had a completely free choice?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you. haven’t tried to get them to pick the Negro
school or the white school or anything of that kind? A.
I think the guidelines prohibit us.
Q. Has the Board had any standard at any time which
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants— Cross
1405a
tended toward the selection of Negro schools by Negro
pupils?
—205—
The Court: Read that question to me, please.
(Last question read by Reporter.)
The Court: Do you understand the question?
The Witness: No, sir, I do not.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Let me ask you this. Was it at all times since you
have had freedom of choice equally easy for a Negro to
pick a white school as it was to pick a Negro school? A.
I would think so.
Q. That was true in 1965-66 also? A. That was the year
we had four grades freedom of choice.
Q, Well, let’s take those four grades. Was it equally
easy to pick a predominantly white school as it was to
pick a Negro school; is that true? A. I would hope so.
Q. And you don’t have any doubt that, do you? A.
Might be some doubt.
Q. Well, now, do you remember who Cornell Davis was
or his— A. Cornell Davis?
Q. Or do you know Mrs. Inez Davis? A. I believe he
is a student who is in the Louisburg school.
Q. Now, isn’t it true, Mr. Smith, that Cornell Davis at-
—206—
tempted through his grandmother, Mrs. Inez Davis, to
select Louisburg school for the year 1965-66, and that he
was rejected because his grandmother was not his legal
guardian? A. (No answer.)
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1406a
Mr. Schwelb: May I approach the witness, your.
Honor, and refresh his recollection?
The Court: Yes.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
I would like to show you a page from the minutes of
the School Board and ask you to read the sentence that
I am pointing out to you.
Mr. Schwelb: This is in evidence, your Honor,
from last year.
A (Reading) “The applications for assignment under the
free choice plan for the following named pupils were found
to be invalid, the applications not having been made by the
parents or legal guardian of such pupils. The pupils were
assigned as follows
Q. Read those pupils, please, and their assignment.
A. (Reading) “ Cornell Davis, Riverside School, 12th
grade; Michael Scarborough, Perry’s School, 9th grade . . . ”
Q. Thank you, Mr. Smith. Now, does that refresh your
recollection? A. Yes.
Q. Now, the choice form there was filled out by Cornell
—207—
Davis’ grandmother, wasn’t it? A. I believe it was.
Q. And she is not his legal guardian? A. No.
Q. And so because it was filled out by someone not his
legal guardian, he wasn’t allowed to go to the white school;
isn’t that what it says? A. I believe our plans said that
for transfers, it had to be the parent.
Q. But there was no transfer involved; this was free
choice, wasn’t it? A. Yes.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants— Cross
1407a
Q. So in other words, the grandmother was close enough
to him to pick the Negro school, wasn’t she? A. Yes.
Q. There was no problem about his going to the Negro
school because the grandmother filled out the forms for
him, was there? A. I don’t know how the students orig ̂
inally got there. It might be the parent originally did pick
the Riverside school.
Q. The criterion for getting that child into the pre
dominantly white school was different, was it not, from
the criterion for letting him stay in the all Negro school
with respect to who had signed the choice? A. Yes, to
—208-
leave one school to another school.
Q. And previously he had been assigned to that school
by the School Board, hadn’t he? A. Yes, I believe pre
viously we were following the Pupil Assignment Act.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, on this free choice again, there were,
I think, 48 Negro students in predominantly white schools
this last year, or somewhere around there? A. Some
where.
Q. Now, each one of those filled out a choice form to go
to a predominantly white school; is that not true? A. Yes.
Q. He or his parents or guardian? A. Yes.
Q. And there were no white children in predominantly
Negro schools, were there? A. No.
The Court: Now, this is last year that you have
reference to?
Mr. Schwelb: This last year, that’s right, your
Honor.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, did every child in Franklin County
fill out a choice form? A. To my knowledge, yes.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1408a
Q. You think there were no exceptions whatever? A.
—209—
To my knowledge, there were no exceptions.
Q. Well, certainly it’s possible there were some excep
tions. A. It’s possible.
Q. If there were exceptions, they did not cross racial
lines, did they? A. I don’t think so.
The Court: Just one minute. What was the figure
you used in your question with respect to the num
ber of Negro children in predominantly white
schools ?
Mr. Schwelb: I think there were 48, your Honor,
and I can check that in my findings.
The Court: That’s all right.
Mr. Schwelb: When I say “my findings,” I mean
my proposed findings, your Honor.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, you testified briefly when Mr.
Chambers was examining you about the six or possibly
seven projected teachers who would cross racial lines for
this coming year. I’m sorry—five or possibly six; isn’t
that true? A. At this moment. Of course, we are trying
all we can.
Q. You are trying all you can? A. We are trying to
get these positions filled.
— 210—
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, in your answers to interrogatories,
I believe you stated that there were four teachers that
crossed racial lines during this past year? A. That’s
correct.
Q. And two of those were at Riverside? A. That’s right.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
■Warren W, Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1409a
Q. And one was at Louisburg ? A. Yes.
Q. And one -was at Bunn? A. Correct.
Q. Now, let’s take what each one of those four teachers
did. Let’s take first of all the two at Riverside; what were
their jobs? A. One was a librarian, and the other was a
speech therapist and teacher of English.
Q. How many classes did she teach in English? A. I
believe one class in English.
Q. How many hours a week? A. It would be five hours
a week.
Q. And what did the lady do who was at Bunn? A. She
spent full time as librarian.
Q. And what did the Negro teacher do at Louisburg?
A. Full time librarian.
Q. So the actual classroom teacher desegregation that
you had was five hours a week, isn’t that right—ordinary
- 211-
classroom teacher? A. As you describe classroom teacher.
Q. Now, you had two librarians and a speech teacher
with one English class; and what was the fourth? A. We
had three librarians.
Q. Three librarians and one speech teacher with five
hours of English. Now, I believe that one of these, the
Negro teacher who was at Louisburg, became sick; is
that right? A. That’s correct.
Q. What time of the year was that? A. It was along
about, I ’d say, possibly February or March, I believe, the
best I remember.
Q. Was she replaced? A. An interim teacher finished
out the year. Someone did her duties as an interim teacher.
Q. What was the race of the interim replacement? A.
White.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1410a
Q. By the way, would you say that the activities of the
faculties of the predominantly white and predominantly
Negro schools have pretty much integrated now, or are
there separate activities for the teachers in the predomi
nantly white schools and the teachers in the predominantly
Negro schools? A. No. I mean the meetings that we have
are for all teachers.
— 212—
Q. Besides meetings, are there any other activities that
are still arranged along predominantly white school lines
and Negro school lines?
The Court: For my information, would you de
scribe what you mean by the use of the word “ac
tivities” ?
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants— Cross
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Well, is there anything of any kind that the teachers
of the white schools do that the teachers in the Negro
schools don’t do with them?
The Court: You are referring now to school ac
tivities ?
Mr. Schwelb: School activities, outside activities,
training activities—anything.
A. I am just trying to think what they do that is not avail
able to them.
Q. Perhaps I could refresh your recollection. Do you
remember a day off being given to teachers at some schools
but not at others during the past school year? A. Yes.
1411a
Q. What was that day off for? A. That was to attend
a district teachers’ meeting.
Q. I would like to read you a passage from the Franklin
Times of October 6, 1966, which is edited by a member of
the School Board, and ask you if it is accurate: “October
—213—
11 was approved as a day off for the teachers in the
predominantly white schools in the County in order that
they might attend the annual NCEA meeting” ; is that true!
A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, you were testifying earlier about
these small high schools having certain advantages. A. I
read some advantages that someone else had said.
Q. Now, you testified, at least originally, that you agreed
with those advantages! A. Oh, yes, I agreed with those
advantages.
Q. Of course, a number of those advantages that you
mentioned are really advantages of having small pupil-
teacher ratio, aren’t they! A. I think it is the close con
tact you have in the small school. Just as in your private
schools, the military schools, and so on, I think that close
contact, that close supervision they have between the
teacher and the student is what I was referring to.
Q. If it is a very large school but a small pupil-teacher
ratio, supervision can be just as close? A. Yes. that’s
what I said yesterday; that my personal preference was
a small school if you can provide the facilities and the
personnel and all that sort of thing.
Q. That is kind of hard to do, isn’t it? A. It’s expensive.
—214—
Q. It’s very expensive. Now, you’ve got one high school
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1412a
there, Epsom High School, which has about 72 students
in the top four grades? A. Yes.
Q. And that’s by far the most expensive school to run
in the County, isn’t it, by teachers’ salaries divided by
pupils per class?
(Witness looking for report.)
Q. Well, let me ask you to look at Mr. Stormer’s report,
the very last page of it, which shows teachers’ salaries
for 1965-66, and the enrollment, and then it shows the
teacher salaries divided by the enrollment, and I ask you
what it shows for Epsom? A. That is the largest.
Q. How many dollars does it show? A. $350.30.
Q. Now, what does it show for Riverside? A. $235.91.
Q. And Bunn is even smaller than that, isn’t it? A.
$188.31. I believe Mr. Stomer said that this was a very
crude method of determining this. In fact, I notice in
this that he did not follow the pattern that the smaller
the school, the greater the cost. For instance, one that
ranked number five in size might be the eleventh in cost,
or something of that sort.
—215—
Q. Well, letting Mr. Stormer’s testimony speak for it
self—
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
Mr. Yarborough: We object to that remark.
The Court: Overruled.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Letting Mr. Stormer’s testimony speak for itself,
you don’t doubt that Epsom is the most expensive school
1413a
to run with its size student population, do you? A. From
this report, yes.
Q. Well, you don’t think that is wrong, do you? A. The
figures here, no, I don’t think they are wrong*.
Q. Now, you have testified that with the same number
of teachers, according to the teacher allotment you have
described, you couldn’t give all the courses in Bunn and
Gethsemane if they were consolidated, is that right? A.
I testified that this report that the assistant superintendent
worked up—it would take more teachers than we presently
have.
Q. It was somebody else’s report, wasn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. Now, under the present system, of course, the stu
dents at Bunn and Gethsemane can’t take anything like
all the courses that are offered, can they? A. You mean
in the individual schools?
—216—
Q. No, I mean that the courses now being given at Bunn
and Gethsemane, taken cumulatively, aren’t available to
all the students at Gethsemane? A. Yes, there are some
exceptions.
Q. There are about nine courses given at Bunn that are
not given at Gethsemane? A. There are several.
Q. And there are about three or four given at Geth
semane that are not given at Bunn? A. That’s correct.
Q. In fact, those have been read into a couple of the
depositions, if you recollect; isn’t that true? A. (No
answer.)
Q. Now, you mentioned that Mr. Edmonson, I think it
is, thinks small schools are better for the reasons stated?
A. He gave this list of advantages of a small school.
Q. Was it his conclusion that they made up or didn’t
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1414a
make up for the disadvantages? A. It seems like in this
list of nine advantages of a small school there are several
disadvantages.
Q. In Mr. Edmonson’s book, does he say that there are
very great educational advantages in having very close to
each other in a rural county two or three schools covering
the same grades? A. I didn’t read that in the record.
—217—
Q. That’s not educationally advantageous, is it? A. I
don’t know.
Q. Now, did he say that overlapping bus routes to near
by schools are educationally advantageous or administra
tively advantageous? A. I didn’t read that in there, no.
Q. You don’t think he would say that, do you?
Mr. Yarborough: Objection.
The Court: You may ask him his opinion.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Do you think it’s advantageous administratively to
have two routes running over the same area essentially?
Do you think it’s cheaper? A. No, I doubt if it would be
cheaper.
Q. You say you doubt if it would be cheaper? Do you
know that it would be more expensive? A. Well, it de
pends on the number of students on the route. It might
be that you’d get a bus load, and then you’ve got to put
another bus there to finish picking them up. That’s what
I meant.
Q. Is it educationally advantageous to bus students who
live in the Epsom area about thirteen miles to the Riverside
school w’hen the Riverside school is 127% of capacity and
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W . Smith—for Defendants— Cross
1415a
the Epsom school in the high school grades is 39% of
capacity? Is that educationally advantageous? A. I be-
—218—
lieve that one of the authorities says to transport students
one hour each way is all right.
Q. That’s not quite what I was driving at, Mr. Smith.
Do any of the authorities that you have read, or do you
think it’s good educational policy to transport children
who live very near a school that’s under utilized to another
school which is grossly over utilized? A. If you are speak
ing of utilization, no.
Q. Now, it’s true, isn’t it, that the Epsom High School
has nowhere near the students for its capacity, for rea
sonable capacity? A. That’s correct. Well, I don’t know
about “nowhere near.”
Q. Well, Mr. Stormer said 39% based on 25 per class
room as reasonable. Now, it’s true, isn’t it, that Riverside
High School is very substantially overcrowded on that 25
per classroom basis? A. (No answer.)
Q. Mr. Stormer’s figure was 126%, I believe. A. His
figure was a little less than a hundred twenty-some per
cent.
Q. In the high school grades? A. Oh, high school?
That’s right. That is his figure for high school.
Q. Now, there are no Negro students in the Epsom High
- 2 1 9 -
School, are there? A. In the high school?
Q. That’s right, in the high school. A. No.
Q. There’s one in the grade school? A. Yes.
Q. It’s true, isn’t it, that there’s a bus which takes the
Negro high school students who live around Epsom—
takes them to Riverside? A. Yes.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1416a
Q. And that’s about thirteen miles, isn’t it? A. Ap
proximately.
Q. Now, it’s also true, isn’t it, that there are no Negroes
in the Youngsville High School? A. That’s correct.
Q. Either in the high school grades or the elementary
grades? A. That’s right.
Q. It is also true that a bus takes them from the Youngs
ville area to the Riverside school area? A. Yes.
Q. And what do Mr. Stormer’s figures show as to the
percentage of capacity of Youngsville High School being
used, the high school grades being used? A. 7.5.
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants— Cross
Reporter: Seventy or seven?
The Witness: Seven.
Mr. Sehwelb: Seventy point five.
Q. And it’s true also, is it not, Mr. Smith, that there
are Negro students who live in the general area of the
Edward Best High School and the Edward Best Elemen
tary School who are taken by bus ten or twelve miles or
more to Perry’s school? A. Yes.
Q. And what do Mr. Stormer’s figures show for the
percentage utilization of those? A. What?
Q. Of Edward Best High School and Perry’s High
School? A. 74.2 for Edward Best High School, and the
Perry’s High School 126.7.
B y the C o u r t:
Q. Now, your 126.7—what does that figure mean? A. I
believe 100% from the table that Mr. Stormer used would
be the maximum.
1417a
Q. Maximum utilization? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So you have more students there than is desirable
from whatever table he used? A. Yes, sir.
— 221—
Q. I didn’t get the figure a moment ago, the number of
miles from Youngsville to Riverside. A. Fourteen miles,
I think, would be about correct.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. So in these three cases in any event it’s true, isn’t it,
Mr. Smith, that Negro children are bussed substantial dis
tances to go to overcrowded schools when there are under
utilized schools near their homes? A. By this table, yes.
Q. Now, we discussed a little bit the transportation sys
tem that you used. Now, how far is the Youngsville Ele
mentary School from the Youngsville High School—about?
A. Probably a mile.
Q. Isn’t it less than that?
The Court: Which school?
Mr. Schwelb: The Youngsville High School, which
is predominantly white, and the Youngsville Ele
mentary which is Negro, your Honor.
A. Maybe a half mile.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, they have a separate transportation
system—Youngsville Elementary doesn’t have the same
transportation system as Youngsville High School, does it?
A. No. Each school has their transportation system.
Q. Now, the students in the Youngsville area—the Negro
- 222-
students travel on the Youngsville elementary bus, and
the white students travel on the Youngsville High bus,
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1418a
don’t they? A. The students who go to Youngsville Ele
mentary travel on the bus that serves Youngsville Ele
mentary, and the same is true for Youngsville High School.
Q. Youngsville is a rural area, isn’t it? A. For the
most part, yes.
Q. Negroes and white people live side by side there in
the rural area, don’t they? A. Yes.
Q. And the routes overlap very much, don’t they? A.
There would be probably some overlapping of bus routes,
yes.
Q. Now, you testified, Mr. Smith, that each school has
a separate bus system. That isn’t entirely true, is it? I
mean that’s not a full explanation of the situation in the
Franklin County schools, is it? Well, let me rephrase that.
Don’t some schools have a joint bus system? A. Well, yes.
Q. Yes, they do, don’t they? For example, there’s one
bus route that serves Youngsville Elementary School and
Riverside school, doesn’t it—Number 84 bus? A. Yes. It’s,
I think, a student driver. Of course, there would not be a
- 2 2 3 -
student in the Youngsville Elementary School old enough
to drive a bus, most likely.
Q. So a Riverside student drives that bus? A. Yes.
Q. A Youngsville High School student doesn’t drive it,
does he? A. No, sir.
Q. And what is the race of the students at Riverside?
A. Negro.
Q. And at Youngsville High School? A. White.
Q. And at Youngsville Elementary? A. Negro.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, are there any other schools that are
on the same bus system besides Youngsville Elementary
and Riverside? A. Yes.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1419a
Q. What are some of them? A. Would he Cedar Street.
Q. And Riverside? A. Yes.
Q. Where is Cedar Street located, Mr. Smith? A. It’s
located north of Louisbnrg.
Q. And is there any school, Mr. Smith, that is between
Cedar Street and Riverside geographically? A. Yes.
—224—
Q. And that’s Louisburg High School, isn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. And that’s a predominantly white high school? A.
Yes.
Q. And so the bus transportation is consolidated be
tween a school south of Louisburg and a school north of
Louisburg; isn’t that true? A. Yes.
Q. But Louisburg is left out of this consolidation? A.
Yes. The students if they ask for the school, they are
transported, you know, to it.
Q. Aren’t there two other schools in the system that
also have consolidated bus service? Well, don’t Edward
Best High School and Edward Best Elementary? A. Yes.
Q. And they are both predominantly white? A. Yes.
Q. In fact, that isn’t right. Edward Best Elementary is
all white? A. Yes.
Q. And Edward Best High School is predominantly
write? A. That’s correct.
Q. And so it has been possible in Franklin County, hasn’t
—225—
it, to consolidate the bus routes of different schools? I
mean, you have done it in three cases? Is that true? A.
Yes, I guess that would be.
Q. And you have always done it when Negro bus routes
were consolidated with other Negro bus routes, and white
bus routes were consolidated with other white bus routes?
A. Yes. That’s the way it has been.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1420a
Q. And so it would be possible to consolidate a Negro
bus route with a white bus route, wouldn’t it? A. (No
answer.)
Q. Let me rephrase that question. Will you name the
first six reasons why that is impossible!
Mr. Yarborough: We object. He has been over
that.
The Court: Well, overruled. He can state any
reasons that he knows.
Mr. Yarborough: I believe he said six reasons.
B y M r. S ch ivelh :
Q. Well, state any reason that you know why it’s im
possible. A. I think any time you do that, there will be
some problems, but the students on the bus—if you are
referring to going to several different schools, if you’ve
—226—
got students who want to go to this school and that school
and that school, the discipline on the bus—I don’t know
who the driver would ever turn to to say I’m having trouble
with this child on this bus. Who do they report it to?
Q. Well, you overcame that difficulty with respect to
Riverside and Louisburg Elementary, didn’t you, and
Cedar Street? I mean, you managed to overcome that diffi
culty, didn’t you? A. Yes, I think they handled it right
well.
Q. And so perhaps you could overcome it at Youngs-
ville Elementary which is half a mile from Youngsville
High, and have its transportation consolidated with it;
or would that be different? A. It would take some ar
Transcript- of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
ranging.
1421a
Q. Now, if you consolidated those routes and saved the
duplication, that would save a good deal of money, wouldn’t
it! A. If you saved all the duplication, it would save
some money.
Q. Well, you don’t doubt that it would eliminate some
duplication, do you, seriously! A. I would need to know
all the facts before I could answer.
Q. Now, the Franklin County School Board has not had
enough money to pay teacher supplements, as I understand
it! A. No.
—227—
Q. If you could save some money by consolidating some
of these routes, perhaps you could have more money and
might be able to pay some teacher supplements, couldn’t
you! A. I doubt that the State Board of Education would
let us use transportation money to supplement teachers’
salaries.
Q. It wouldn’t be transportation money; it would b,e
money that you haven’t spent by duplicating bus routes,
wouldn’t it! A. The State Board of Education allots the
money for transportation.
Q. Well, now, Mr. Chambers was asking you some cjues-
tions about the pictures that were taken day before yester
day.
The Court: Now, that you are changing the sub
ject matter, it’s a good time for a recess.
(Whereupon, a fifteen minute recess was taken.)
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Mr. Smith, you testified yesterday, I think, that the
statistics in our motion to eliminate disparity are no
longer true! A. That’s correct.
Transcript, o f Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1422a
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants— Cross
—228—
Q. 1 think you testified earlier—and I will just bring
it up to date—that Federal assistance has gone to some
of the Negro schools, and that has given them better equip
ment than they had theretofore? A. Yes.
Q. And that certainly has improved your ratio of library
books per pupil to some extent? A. Yes.
Q. Have you read the proposed findings that we filed
yesterday? A. No.
Q. Actually, the value of the buildings and equipment
per pupil rose very markedly in the Negro schools, didn’t
it? A. Yes.
Q. They went something like from $240 per pupil to
about five hundred and something, isn’t that true?
The Court: Now, Mr. Schwelb, for my informa
tion, it might be wise, since Mr. Smith says that
these figures in your motion for further relief—I
believe it’s in the affidavit in support of the motion
—are no longer correct in some respects, if you will
pursue with him in what respect, to what extent.
Mr. Schwelb: Well, your Honor, there’s no doubt
—229—
that that is true. In our proposed findings we have
spelled that out.
The Court: Oh, I see. All right.
Mr. Schwelb: I ’m just trying to show the manner
in which it came about.
The Court: Very well. All right.
Mr. Schwelb: For the Court’s information, as I
mentioned when we brought this motion, the value
of buildings and equipment per pupil was about $900
1423a
in the predominantly white schools and about $240
in the Negro schools.
The Court: $913.44 as against $285.18.
Mr. Schwelb: $285. I ’m sorry. Well, that’s gone
somewhere—the Negro schools now with this im
provement have gone to somewhere around $580 or
$600. The predominantly white schools have gone
up a little bit. So it’s now about nine hundred and
something to six hundred or so.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Let me ask you, Mr. Smith, whether this improve
ment is to a significant extent the result of the addition
of so-called mobile or portable classrooms? A. That
would have a fair share of this increase.
Q. Would you tell us, Mr. Smith, the schools in which
—-230—-
these portable classrooms are located, and howT many, and
so forth! A. They have in the Cedar Street School one
mobile classroom, in the Perry’s High School four mobile
classrooms, in the Gethsemane two mobile classrooms and
one double unit used as a library; in the Youngsville Ele
mentary School two mobile classrooms, and in the River
side School eight mobile classrooms.
Q. Could you describe for the Court what one of those
mobile classrooms looks like, and how big it is? A. It’s
12 feet wide and 57 feet long; it has a heat pump which
air conditions, and it is also heated from the same pump.
Q. You say 12 feet by 57 feet? A. Yes.
Q. That would be a little less than 720 square feet. Now,
Mr. Smith, it’s true, isn’t it, that with respect to the ques
tion of acreage of site per pupil, the predominantly white
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1424a
schools have considerably more acreage per pupil than the
Negro schools do? A. Yes, when you include the Louis-
burg School which was the last site that we bought, and
I believe in this particular case we had to get this much
land, or the Board at that time in order to get part of the
land had to get all of it.
—231—
Q. There is plenty of unused space on the Louisburg
campus, isn’t there? A. Some undeveloped.
Q. Now, the acreage of Louisburg is approximately four
times that of Riverside, isn’t it? A. Between three and
four.
Q. And there are approximately twice as many students
at Riverside as at Louisburg? A. Yes.
Q. Now, you testified that there are eight portable class
rooms on the Riverside campus? A. Yes, sir.
Q. There would be a good deal more room for them at
Louisburg, wouldn’t there? A. Probably. There’s more
acreage there.
Q. That’s true with respect to Perry’s and Gold Sand too,
isn’t it? A. No.
Q. Isn’t it true that the number of pupils at Perry’s is
substantially greater than the number of pupils at Gold
Sand? A. Yes.
Q. And isn’t the acreage comparable ? A. Maybe a third
more acreage at Perry’s, several acres more.
—232—
Q. Is it not true that Gold Sand has eleven acres and
Perry’s ten? A. I think Perry’s has more acreage than
that.
Q. Are your principal’s report stating that in error? A.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1425a
Yes, if it says that, I think that particular figure is in
error.
Q. Isn’t it true that as of 1965-66 there were 346 students
at Gold Sand, all white, and 895 students at Perry’s, all
Negro, or approximately that? A. That sounds about
right.
Q. So the acreage per pupil is considerably greater at
Gold Sand than at Perry’s, isn’t it? A. Yes, it would be
greater.
Q. Now, you were talking earlier, Mr. Smith, about the
eligibility of these Negro students, if they transferred to
another school or schools that had been consolidated, to
continue getting cheaper lunches, and so on. I ’m not sure
if the crux of your testimony is that you think that if the
schools were consolidated they would become ineligible or
whether that is not the crux of your testimony? A. I
would think that you would have to refigure all of this again
to see if the school would be eligible. That’s my thinking.
Q. Let me ask you this, Mr. Smith. Which is the agency
—233—
of the Federal Government that runs the Elementary and
Secondary Education Act? A. The State Department of
Public Instruction.
Q. I mean the Federal Department? A. The Depart
ment of Health, Education and Welfare.
Q. And doesn’t the Department of Health, Education
and Welfare also apply the desegregation requirements in
connection with Federal assistance at schools? A. What
do you mean?
Q. In other words, counties that receive Federal assist
ance have to desegregate their schools, don’t they, under
Title 6 of the Civil Bights Act? A. Yes.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants—Cross
1426a
Q. And doesn’t the Department of Health, Education and
Welfare run that program also? A. Yes.
Q. So that the two programs are run by the same agency,
one is a desegregation program and one is a Federal as
sistance program? A. Yes.
Q. And the policy of the Department of Health, Educa
tion and Welfare is to eliminate segregation of schools,
isn’t it? A. I would assume so.
Q. Now, have you ever been shown any policy statement
—234—
by the Department of Health, Education and Welfare with
respect to the eligibility of students to Title 1 funds in a
desegregated situation—in a situation in which segregation
is an issue? A. No, I don’t—I did not get to several of
these meetings that they had under the Elementary and
Secondary Education Act. I was tied up with you taking
these depositions, you know, when they had one of those
meetings.
Mr. Schwelb: May I approach the witness, your
Honor?
The Court: Yes.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. I would like to show you, Mr. Smith, what purports
to be a memorandum from the Department of Health, Edu
cation and Welfare to Chief, State School Officers, State
Title 1 Co-ordinators, which appears to bear the initials
of Harold Howe, II, U. S. Commissioner of Education.
Would you look at that and tell me if you have ever seen
that before, or a copy of it? A. (No answer.)
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1427a
Q. Now, I wonder if you would read for us from “Sub
ject” to the end of the paragraph that I am pointing to?
The Court: Did he answer the first question,
whether he had seen that?
A. I don’t believe I have seen this. I was just trying to
—2 3 5 -
study this out.
Q. Would you read that into the record?
Mr. Yarborough: We object to that which is ad
dressed to Chief, State School Officers, which he
says he has never seen. We object to his reading
from something that is not in evidence.
The Court: Well, even though he hasn’t seen it,
it may conceivably have some bearing or some com
petency. I don’t know until I hear it. Objection over
ruled.
A. (Reading) “Subject: Use of Title 1 Funds in Local
School Districts Undergoing Desegregation or in Racially
Segregated Attendance Areas.
“In its report issued on January 31, the National Advi
sory Council on the Education of Disadvantaged Children
made the following comment and recommendation:
“ ‘As racial desegregation of schools progresses, reports
made to the Council indicate that insufficient planning re
sults in some impoverished Negro children being cut off
from the benefits of important programs that may exist in
their former segregated schools. A major new area for
vigilance in administrative care is that of insuring that
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1428a
special educational services follow the eligible child who
has transferred under the school desegregation program.’
“ The purpose of this memorandum is to provide (1) the
— 236-
following statement of policy: No child who would other
wise participate in a Title 1 activity or service is to be
denied such participation because of his exercise of the
right to enroll in another school, and (2) guidance for the
implementation of this policy.”
Mr. Schwelb: Thank you, Mr. Smith.
The Court: Now, is that a new policy that effec
tively does away with the necessity for transfer of
at least ten?
Mr. Schwelb: Well, I think this is more a general
policy. What I would like to do, if I might, is put
this whole document in evidence, your Honor. In
the present case, of course, if there is consolidation
of any kind, there will be more than ten.
The Court: Well, I don’t know that it is going to
do any good to put it in evidence if you can’t under
stand it, because I ’m sure you have had more experi
ence—
Mr. Schwelb: Well, could I have a two or three
minute break to read it again?
The Court: Yes, sir. It’s perfectly all right to put
it in evidence, but I would like to have your opinion
as to the meaning of it for my guidance.
Mr. Schwelb: May I take two or three minutes?
The Court: Yes.
— 237—
Mr. Schwelb: Mr. Kennedy, my colleague, has
read this more carefully than I have—and I apolo-
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants— Gross
1429a
gize to the Court for that—and he says that it doesn’t
change the previous requirement for ten.
The Court: But there is no reference in this
memorandum to the ten!
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, I might call the
Court’s attention to this publication which is also a
February 1967 publication. Although this is the only
copy that Mr. Smith has, I think it explains the
present policy.
The Court: Is that the one that refers to the ten!
Mr. Chambers: Yes, sir.
Mr. Schwelb: This one has no reference either
way, your Honor.
(Reporter notes that counsel are discussing two
different documents.)
The Court: Now, what is the date of this one!
Mr. Schwelb: February 27, 1967, your Honor.
The Court: The same date as this other!
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, this is just dated
February, 1967.
The Court: Now, the mimeographed sheet that
you hold in your hand, Mr. Schwelb, uses the word
“child” in the singular, does it not! “No child . . . ”
it says.
—238—
Mr. Schwelb: (Reading) “ Special educational ser
vices follow the eligible child who is transferred.”
The Court: How do we get the requirement of
ten children out of an “eligible child” ?
Mr. Schwelb: Your Honor is asking me a good
question. Well, let me put it this way. I think it is
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1430a
clear that this either liberalizes it further or adopts
the ten-child program, either way.
The Court: It either liberalizes it or restricts it!
Mr. Schwelb: Well, in other words, any time ten
children transfer, you maintain eligibility, or you
maintain eligibility even if less than ten children
transfer. It’s no worse for our side than that.
The Court: All right.
Mr. Schwelb: I would like to offer this. I don’t
know what your rules are on this, your Honor.
Should I wait until we are putting on our evidence,
your Honor?
The Court: Yes, you should as a matter of pro
cedure, but you may offer it at the proper time. For
my information, I would want you to tell me for
what purpose you are offering it.
Mr. Schwelb: Well, I will state that now, your
Honor.
The Court: All right.
— 239—
Mr. Schwelb: I am offering it for this purpose:
The suggestion was made in Mr. Smith’s testimony
that if the schools were consolidated, this would in
some way impair the eligibility of Negro children
to participate in Title 1 programs. We are offering
it to rebut that proposition.
The Court: Well, I am confused as to what the
result would be.
Mr. Smith has testified, as I understand his tes
timony, that it is his personal opinion that if two
formerly separate schools are consolidated into one
school, it would be necessary to recalculate the eligi-
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1431a
bility, and that it would no longer be a question of
the transfer of children, either one child as your
February 27th publication says, or ten children as
the other February publication says.
Mr. Sehwelb: If Bunn became grades 10 through
12, let’s say, and Gethsemane became grades 7
through 9, then the children in 7 through 9 from
Bunn would be transferring to Gethsemane, and the
children from 10 through 12 at Gethsemane would
be transfering to Bunn, and the two schools would
still exist. And certainly I think the policy of this
memorandum, which I think is the policy that chil
dren shouldn’t be penalized because of desegrega
tion, would indicate that the mechanics of—
—240—
The Court: Well, then, I have misconstrued what
you mean by consolidation. By consolidation you
don’t mean taking what is formerly two schools and
making one school out of it?
Mr. Sehwelb: No, your Honor.
The Court: You are going to transfer certain
classes?
Mr. Sehwelb: What our hope in this case is, say,
Bunn takes one set of grades and Gethsemane takes
another set of grades so that the high school pro
gram can—well, for the various reasons that Mr.
Stormer put out. But the two schools would con
tinue to exist.
There are only two schools in the system that we
are asking gradually to be abolished, and that’s
Cedar Street and Youngsville Elementary because
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants— Cross
1432a
they are—according to Mr. Stormer and according
to the evidence—small and inadequate schools.
But we are not asking that Bunn be abolished or
that Gethsemane be abolished. We want them to
use the equipment and the facilities of both.
The Court: All right. I think that clarifies it.
Mr. Schwelb: Thank you, your Honor.
B y M r. S ch w elb :
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, I would like to go through with you,
—2 4 1 -
in conclusion, the amount of desegregation that has been
accomplished in Franklin County to date. I think we might
go school by school. Let’s take the predominantly white
schools first. Let’s take Louisburg High School. At the
present time, or when this last school term ended, were
there any Negro teachers there ? A. No, not actively teach
ing.
Q. And how many Negro pupils were there? A. I be
lieve it was 30.
Q. And the projected for next year is how many? A.
33. In fact, I believe all 30 of those who were there, with
the exception of those who graduated, are corning back
plus six new ones.
Q. So Louisburg has gone up? A. Yes.
Q. Approximately how many white students are there at
Louisburg? A. 650.
Q. So, again, you’ve got somewhere around 95 or 96%
white students there as far as student population? A. Yes.
Q. Now, what about Bunn—how many Negro students
were there last year? A. Seems like it was 11 or 12.
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants— Cross
1433a
Q. And that’s going down to 9, is that right? A. No,
—242—
I don’t think so.
Q. What is it going to be? A. Seems like it’s 11.
Q. Going to 11. I ’m sorry. And you had one Negro li
brarian there? A. Yes.
Q. And now you are going to have another Negro librar
ian? A. Yes.
Q. How many white students are there at Bunn? A.
Around 700.
Q. So that’s running it about 99% or 98% white, isn’t
that right, student population?
B y the C ou rt:
Q. When you say 700, is that the total student popu
lation? A. No. He asked the number of white students.
B y M r. S ehw elh :
Q. Now, Youngsville High School has been all white in
student and teacher population throughout, hasn’t it? A.
Yes.
Q. And it will be next year? A. As it stands now.
Q. And the same is true of Gold Sand School? A. Yes.
—243—
Q. Now, Epsom has had one Negro child in the first
grade who is going to the second grade; is that true? A.
Yes.
Q. And other than that, all teachers and all pupils have
continued white? A. Yes.
Q. And Edward Best Elementary School has been all-
white in teachers and pupils and will continue to be next
year? A. Yes.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1434a
Q. And Edward Best High School had two Negro pupils
last year and is scheduled to have one Negro pupil this
year; is that right? A. Yes.
Q. And all the teachers have always been white and,
as far as you know, will continue to be white? A. As it
stands now, yes.
Q. Have I mentioned all seven predominantly white
schools? Well, I think I have. Now, let’s take the pre
dominantly Negro schools: Have they ever had a white
pupil in any of them as far as you know? A. Not since
I have been in the County.
Q. And are any white pupils projected for next year?
A. No.
Q. Now, outside of what you have already told the
—244—
Court about the desegregation of Eiverside as far as
teachers are concerned, up until now you have had no
faculty desegregation at any of them, have you? A. No.
Q. There will be no white teachers at Cedar Street,
Youngsville Elementary, Perry’s, or Gethsemane? A. I
believe at Cedar Street the speech therapist does work
in there.
Q. How much? A. It seems like it’s maybe several hours
a week.
Q. Cedar Street is a kind of an adjunct of Eiverside,
isn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. While we are on that, isn’t it true that the lunches
for Cedar Street are trucked in from Eiverside? A. Yes.
Q. And Louisburgis between those two schools? A. Yes.
Q. So recapitulating, Cedar Street, Youngsville Elemen
tary, Perry’s, and Gethsemane so far have remained to
tally all Negro in pupil and teacher population except for
what you said about Cedar Street? A. Yes. And going
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants— Cross
1435a
back to Cedar Street, the lunch facility is connected with the
Elementary and Secondary Education Act under the eli
gible schools.
—245—
Q. Now, your general pupil desegregation will stand next
year at approximately 1.5%, won’t it, for the Negro stu
dents? A. I don’t know the exact per cent.
Q. Isn’t it forty-five over a little better than three thou
sand? A. It seems like it’s forty-six.
Q. Well, how many chose last year in August? A. I
believe 49.
Q. So it has gone down three—the choices? Is that
right? A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you know that in North Carolina as a
whole, 15.4% of the Negro students attend desegregated
schools? A. No, I didn’t know the exact figure.
Q. You did know it was somewhere in that neighborhood,
didn’t you? A. Yes.
Q. Did you know that in Mississippi last year two and
one-half per cent of the Negro students attended predomi
nantly white schools?
Mr. Yarborough: We object.
The Court: Objection overruled, if he knows.
A. No, I don’t know.
—246—
Q. When you said another librarian will be at Bunn, you
mean a different librarian from the one last year? A. Yes.
Q. You don’t mean two? A. No.
Mr. Schwelb: I have no further questions.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Cross
1436a
The Court: Anything further of this witness'?
R ed irec t E xa m in a tion by M r. D a v is :
Q. Mr. Smith, the Franklinton City School Unit is a
separate school unit from the Franklin County Adminis
trative Unit; is that correct? A. Yes. It’s just as if it
were in some other county.
B y the C o u r t :
Q. Is it called a City Administrative Unit? A. Yes, sir.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. And the Franklin County Board of Education has no
control over the schools within the Franklinton Unit? A.
No control.
The Court: Does the Franklinton Unit contain the
Louisburg School?
Mr. Davis: No, sir.
—247—
The Court: Franklinton, then, is a City Adminis
trative Unit?
The Witness: Yes, sir.
Mr. Davis: Yes, sir, a separate unit.
The Witness : But Louisburg is within the County
Administrative Unit.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. The Franklinton City Administrative Unit is sepa
rate and apart from the Franklin County Administrative
Unit? A. Yes.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Redirect
1437a
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, yesterday you testified as to some
of the advantages of a small high school. I’ll ask you if
you know of any disadvantages of the large high school
that Mr. Stormer testified about? A. Yes, from this same
source that I gave yesterday I have some listed here.
Q. Will you tell us those? A. Some disadvantages of
a large high school:
1. Chance of becoming too mechanical in operation.
2. Can become an educational factory. Students turned
out in mass production.
3. Bigness keeps students and teachers from close con
tact.
4. Teachers may never learn the needs and interests of
—248—
their students.
5. School may become mechanical. Mere duplication
may take the place of adaptation to individual differences.
6. The single session or half-day school is almost ex
clusively in the larger schools.
7. Congestion in the large schools.
8. Maintenance of morale is a real problem in the large
school.
Q. They are the disadvantages that you have learned
about in your study of school administration? A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, in some the depositions that were
taken several months ago in this cause, there was quite
a bit said about combination grades at the Cedar Street
Elementary School. Do you recall that testimony? A.
Yes.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Redirect
1438a
Q. What is the general feeling, if yon know, of the educa
tion officials in North Carolina as to the combination grade?
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, may I ask for my
own edification if counsel would explain what he
means by “combination grade” ?
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. Will you explain the combination grade, Mr. Smith?
—249—
A. The combination grade would be where one teacher
teaches, say, the second grade and the third grade, two
grades taught by one teacher.
The position of the State Department of Public Instruc
tion officials would be that there is nothing bad with a
combination grade, and they further state that there is no
such thing as a straight grade.
Q. And why is that, Mr. Smith? A. Any time you get
a group together, no matter how careful you are in the
selection of students, there will be different abilities of
these students.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, are there any combination grades
existing in the schools of Franklin County other than in
the Cedar Street School? A. Yes.
Q. Where are they? A. In the Epsom School and the
Bunn School this past year.
B y the C o u r t :
Q. And Cedar Street? A. Yes, sir. And Pm not sure
about Youngsville. Youngsville Elementary would have a
combination grade. It might be that at other schools one
year they have it and the next year they don’t have it.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants—Redirect
1439a
It depends upon what group of students, how many you
- 2 5 0 -
have in that particular grade, as to whether or not you
need the combination grade. In other words, they just
don’t come in exact lots.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, yesterday there was some testimony
as to the effect consolidation of schools would have on the
number of teachers in the Franklin County Administrative
Unit. At the present time, how many high school teachers
are assigned to the Franklin County Administrative Unit?
A. 63 State allotted high school teachers.
Q. And they are assigned by the State Department of
Public Instruction? A. State Board of Education.
Q. To the Franklin County Administrative Unit? A.
Yes.
Q. As an example, Mr. Smith, of your testimony yester
day on the loss of teachers resulting from consolidation,
what would be the effect in Franklin County on the number
of teachers assigned to the Franklin County Administra
tive Unit if all of the high schools presently existing were
consolidated into one high school? Can you go to the black
board and work that out? A. I ’ll do the best I can. (At
the blackboard.) This is 1619 allotment credits.
Q. Now, what do allotment credits mean, Mr. Smith?
—251—
A. That goes back to this complicated formula where you
take into consideration the number of students in average
daily attendance plus contagion. Further taking into con
sideration for high school allotment credits the incoming
ninth grade which will be the eighth grade, say, this year,
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Redirect
1440a
deduct your twelfth grade because they will be leaving you,
it will be average daily attendance that you are dealing
with here in the eighth and the twelfth. Now, if you work
that out for the past year, that will give you a projection
as to what you are expected to have, say, for the next
year. You do this for the ’65-66 school year, and you get
a figure here; you do it for the ’66-67 school year, and
you get an answer here. Then you’ve got to compare this
answer with actually what is projected back here. If you
come up with a negative number, you’ve got to subtract it
her to get your allotment credits. If you come up with a
positive number, you add it to get this number here.
Q. Based on the current situation in Franklin County,
can you calculate the number of high school teachers we
would have in the Franklin County Administrative Unit
under the consolidation plan that I have asked you about?
A. In that case where you have one high school in your
administrative unit, you get four teachers for the first 80
allotment credits ; and for your remaining allotment credits
—252—
you get a teacher for every 30 remaining allotment credits.
You take this 1539 and divide it by 30. In other words,
you could have 29 or 30 and you wouldn’t get that teacher.
So it would be 51 plus 4, making a total of 55 teachers,
which would be allotted if we had one high school in the
administrative unit with this number of allotment credits.
(For possible clarification of the record, the Be-
porter copied the following figures from the black
board) :
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants— Redirect
1441a
1619 Credits
80
1539
51
30)1539“
150
~39 4
30 51
9/30 ~ 55"
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. Now, does the figure 1619 represent allotment credits
that the Franklin County Administrative Unit has at the
present time? A. I believe that is correct. That is what I
got on the paper that I had yesterday.
Q. That is pertaining to high school teachers? A. Yes.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, may I make one in
quiry.
—253—
The Court: Yes, sir.
B y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Mr. Smith, this calculation represents what you would
have with one high school as distinguished from seven high
schools ? A. Nine.
Q. Nine? A. Nine, yes.
Q. And you now have 63 teachers? A. Yes.
Q. And that shows 55 teachers? A. That’s correct.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Redirect
1442a
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. Mr. Smith, yesterday, Mr. Chambers was cross ex
amining you about the number of ninth grade students at
Gethsemane and Bunn, and I believe he asked you about
the figure 111. State whether or not that figure was based
on the report filed back in October of 1966? A. Yes. That
was October 3, I believe, was the enrollment figure.
Q. And the figure that you testified about 132 pupils
was the projected figure for next year? A. That’s correct.
Q. That is, the ’67-68 year? A. Yes.
—254—
Q. Taking into consideration the students you had trans
ferring into the Bunn and Gethsemane Schools after the
time the report was filed back in October and also taking
into consideration the retentions in the ninth grade? A.
Yes.
Q. Did you recheck your figures on that last night?
A. Yes.
Q. And that is what you came up with—132? A. 132 in
the ninth grade.
Q. For the ’67-68 school year for the two, in Gethsemane
and Bunn High Schools ? A. That is what is expected
in the two schools combined for the ’67-68 school year.
Q. Now, in Mr. Chambers’ cross examination this morn
ing, he asked you questions concerning the vocational
building at Riverside High School and the construction of
that building. I believe he asked you if it wasn’t a cinder-
block building? A. I believe he said partly cinderblock
and wood.
Q. State whether or not the vocational buildings in all
of the high schools in the Franklin County Administrative
Unit are basically of the same construction. A. Yes.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants— Redirect
1443a
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, there has been some testimony about
—2 5 5 -
tennis courts at the Louisburg School. State whether or
not any Franklin County school funds were spent towards
the construction of those tennis courts. A. Not to my
knowledge.
Q. I believe that Mr. Schwelb or Mr. Chambers asked
you some questions pertaining to the athletic programs
in the various schools within the Franklin County Ad
ministrative Unit. Who actually controls the athletic pro
grams for the various schools within the unit, Mr. Smith!
A. The individual schools.
Q. And how are the athletic programs set up within the
schools? In other words, who decides what teams a par
ticular school will play in, say, a basketball game? A. I
would say the coach and possibly the principal.
Q. The coach and the principal of the individual schools?
A. Yes.
Q. And does the Franklin County Board of Education
have anything at all to do with the scheduling of the
athletic contests between the schools? A. No.
Q. Mr. Schwelb, in questioning you about the bus trans
portation system within the County, asked you if the
Franklin County Administrative Unit by cutting down on
the number of bus routes now operating in the County—
—256—
if that procedure wouldn’t result in additional funds to
the County that the County could use to pay supplements
to the various teachers. Is that a correct statement, Mr.
Smith? A. That is not correct, sir.
Q. Who administers the bus transportation funds? A.
The State Board of Education.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Redirect
1444a
Q. And how does that work? A. They allot so much
money for the—
Q. Who allots? A. The State Board of Education allots
so much money to the administrative unit, and actually we
never get our hands on the money; they just certify so
much money that we can use for certain items in trans
portation.
Q. And that money that is earmarked for Franklin
County can only be used for transportation? A. That’s
correct.
Q. And not for construction or for athletics or for any
other purpose? A. Cannot be used for those purposes.
Q. Mr. Smith, state whether or not at the present time
the Franklin County Administrative Unit is conducting all
of its teachers’ meetings, workshops, seminars, and other
activities for teachers on a desegregated basis? A. Yes.
Q. State whether or not the Franklin County Adminis-
—257—
trative Unit has any teacher functions on a segregated
basis. A. I know of none.
Q. Mr. Smith, how many state-wide teacher organiza
tions are presently operating in North Carolina that you
know of? A. Two.
Q. What are they? A. The NCTA—
Q. What does that stand for? A. The North Carolina
Teachers Association. And then the NCEA, the North
Carolina Education Association.
Q. And state whether or not the Franklin County Ad
ministrative Unit has teachers belonging to both of those
organizations? A. Yes.
Q. And, of course, membership in those organizations is
on a voluntary basis; is that correct ?
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith-—for Defendants—Redirect
1445a
Mr. Chambers: We object to that, your Honor.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Redirect
A. Yes.
Mr. Chambers: It calls for a conclusion on the
part of the witness.
Mr. Schwelb: It is also leading.
The Court: Well, objection overruled. You may
—2 5 8 -
go into it on recross examination if you desire.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. And isn’t it true, Mr. Smith, that the Franklin County
Administrative Unit allows the teachers belonging to the
particular organizations, that is, the NCEA or the NCTA.
to attend the meetings of the particular organization? A.
Yes. The one day is set aside to attend this meeting
whether it be—
Q. And the teachers are given a day off from school in
order to attend the respective meetings! A. That’s right.
Without pay. It’s not one of the 180 school days.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, Mr. Schwelb asked you some ques
tions pertaining to the portable classrooms that are in
existence at the various schools in Franklin County. What
criterion, Mr. Smith, is used in placing a portable class
room at a particular school? A. Well, the way we got
these portable classrooms was under the Elementary and
Secondary Education Act. In order to buy them under
the Eelementary and Secondary Education Act, the school
where it was going had to be an eligible school.
Q. That is, a qualifying school under Title I of that Act?
—259—
A. Eight.
1446a
Q. Mr. Smith, excluding the Lonishurg School site, state
whether or not the other school sites within the Franklin
County Administrative Unit are basically the same size. A.
I think the Union schools would be basically the same size,
and where you have less than eight grades, those.
(nine?)
Q. That is, grades one through twelve the sites would
be approximately the same size? A. Yes.
Q. And the elementary grades, that is, grades one
through seven or eight, whatever it might be, would be
about the same size? A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. Stormer’s report showing the difference in
pupil per acre ratio within the Franklin County Adminis
trative Unit includes the Louisburg site; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And state whether or not there is a sizeable portion
of the Louisburg site that is undeveloped. A. Yes.
Q. And not being used for any school purpose at all?
A. That’s correct.
Q. When was that Louisburg site acquired by the Board
—260—
of Education, Mr. Smith? A. I believe it was 1960.
Q. Of course, that was a new high school that was con
structed on that site? A. That’s right.
Q. And along that same line, Mr. Smith, in Mr. Stor
mer’s report pertaining to the value of the various school
plants, state whether or not Louisburg School was included
in that report. A. I don’t believe Mr. Stormer went into
values.
Q. Where Mr. Stormer shows the value of building per
pupil by race.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants— Redirect
1447a
The Court: What is the attachment number in
Mr. Stormer’s deposition to which you refer? See
if that is numbered.
Mr. Davis: That is what 1 am looking for, your
Honor.
Mr. Yarborough: It has the figures Mr. Schwelb
was cross examining him about—$900 and—
Mr. Schwelb: It wTas $938.
Mr. Yarborough: What was that in?
The Witness: That was in Mr. Schwelb’s paper.
Mr. Schwelb: It’s page 3 of the affidavit in my
motion of disparity, Mr. Yarborough. It’s 913.4 per
pupil in the predominantly white schools and $285.18
per pupil in the predominantly Negro schools, and
that was for 1965-66.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. State whether or not, Mr. Smith, that figure which
Mr. Schwelb just quoted includes the Louisburg school?
A. Yes, the nine hundred-some dollar figure includes the
Louisburg School.
Q. Mr. Smith, since the entering of the Interim Order
in this matter last July, what steps has the Franklin
County Board of Education or any of its representatives
taken to encourage teachers to cross racial lines? A. First
of all, the Board of Education called a meeting with all
principals and the advisory councils in each school and
explained thoroughly the Interim Order, with special em
phasis that race shall not be a factor in the hiring, and
so forth, of teachers. And the next step, a letter was
sent to each teacher who was under contract at that time
giving them certain information on the opening of school
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Redirect
1448a
and also explaining the part of the Interim Order per
taining to teachers, and stating that if any wished to
transfer to get in touch with me at once.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, I would like to enter
an objection to the witness’ interpretation of this
letter. The letter is an exhibit in one of the defen-
—262—
dants’ depositions, and we would contend and re
spectfully submit that the letter would speak for
itself. And we think that the interrogation now being
given is not the correct purport of this letter or
the correct statement that is in the letter.
The Court: Well, I am interested in this aspect of
the evidence. If the question had not been asked
by counsel, I would have asked it myself. I’ll let
him state his interpretation of the letter, but then
I shall want to see the letter myself. The word that
was used in the Interim Order, as I understand it,
was “encourage.” Now, I want to know what has
been done—and you may elaborate on this—what
has been done n ot to inform teachers of the pro
visions of the Intermin Order, but what affirmative
action was taken to encourage teachers. All right,
you may proceed.
A. (Continuing) Well, representatives from the Board of
Education contacted several teachers, and they were able
to fill several positions with teachers of the opposite race.
Several of the principals where vacancies existed were told
to go out and get a teacher, interview teachers, and so
forth, of the opposite race, taking into consideration the
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Redirect
1449a
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants—Redirect
best qualified person for the position. And then this spring
—263—
we had a meeting with all of the teachers where I had
some introductory remarks; the members of the Board of
Education were each there. Mr. Yarborough explained
thoroughly the Interim Order and. the criteria for the se
lection, and so forth, of teachers, and I believe, which
was brought out in the testimony, used the words, “You
name it, you’ll get it.”
The Court: Now, the use of those words that
you have I assume put in quotes was that with ref
erence to the transfer of teachers to schools of a
race predominantly different from that of the
teachers, or did it have reference to pupil transfers?
A. No, this was at a meeting with the teachers, all the
teachers in the County.
Q. Well, have you read any of the depositions filed by
the Government in this case in which certain teachers have
testified under oath that they have never been contacted
or encouraged in any way to transfer to a school of a
race predominantly different from the teacher’s? Are
you familiar with any of their testimony! A. Yes, I
heard some of this.
The Court: All right, sir, go ahead.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, do you know who was instrumental
—264—
in obtaining the services of Mrs. Gertie Jones to teach in
1450a
the Louisburg School for the 1966-67 school year? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Who was that? A. Mr. Edward Yarborough.
Q. And he is attorney for the Board of Education? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know what steps he had to take to secure
her services? A. He called, I believed it was Detroit, to
talk to her—she was there on vacation—and contacted her
there. I believe this was some time in August of 1966.
Q. Do you know why Mrs. Gertie Jones was made a
librarian and was not put in as a classroom teacher? A.
It’s my understanding that a position of this type was
the only position she would accept. She did not feel that
she was physically able to get into the classroom with a
number of pupils.
Mr. Schwelb: Your Honor, I am reluctant to do
this, but it appears to me that this has to be all
hearsay; and if it is, I think it should not be allowed.
The Court: Well, objection overruled. I have
heard so much hearsay during this hearing. When
the time comes to consider the evidence, I will take
—265—
into consideration all objections that have been made
on all conceivable grounds.
Mr. Schwelb: Thank you, your Honor.
(At this point a recess was taken for lunch at 1:00
p.m. until 2:30 p.m. of the same day.)
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith-—for Defendants—Redirect
1451a
A ftebnoon Session
July 26, 1967
(Mr. Smith resumed the witness stand.)
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. Mr. Smith, I believe you testified this morning- that
at the close of the 1966-67 school year Mrs. Gertie Jones
was not teaching at the Louisburg school; is that correct,
sir! A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, will you tell the Court why she was not teach
ing at the Louisburg school at the close of this past school
year! A. She became ill sometime around February or
March—January, February, or March—I do not remember
the date.
Q. And did her illness continue from the time she be
came ill until the present day as far as you know! A. Yes.
Q. And state whether or not a substitute was hired or
—266—
a substitute came in to teach for her during her illness?
A. Yes.
Q. And state whether or not Mrs. Jones was the assigned
teacher for the Louisburg School at the end of the school
year? A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, what was the name of the colored
teacher at Bunn for the 1966-67 school year? A. Mrs. Holt.
Q. And do you know who secured her services for the
Bunn High School? A. She was contacted by two mem
bers of the Board of Education about this vacancy at Bunn
and also by the assistant superintendent; and as it devel
oped, she took this position at Bunn.
Q. As a result of the efforts by two members of the
Transcript of Trial—-July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Redirect
1452a
School Board and the assistant superintendent, she was
hired at Bunn School; is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. Now, I believe a white teacher by the name of Mrs.
Atcheson taught at Riverside for the 1966-67 school year?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you tell the Court how she came under the em
ployment of the Franklin County Board of Education? A.
—267—
She was up at the Louisburg school seeking employment,
investigating about if there was any opening there, and
our high school supervisor met her and brought her to my
office; and as a result of the negotiations between this per
son, the principal in the Riverside School, and the advisory
council, she was secured for this position.
Q. Now, I believe a Mrs. Smith also taught at Riverside
school this past school year? A. Yes. She is a white
woman.
Q. And Mrs. Atcheson is also a white woman? A. Yes.
Q. Now, can you tell the Court, Mr. Smith, how Mrs.
Smith’s services were secured by the Franklin County
Board of Education? A. Yes. The assistant superintend
ent sought her out to fill this vacancy that had occurred
there in the Riverside School.
Q. For the record, is Mrs. Smith that taught at River
side School any relation to you? A. No.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, I believe the Interim Order in this
matter was entered the latter part of July, 1966; is that
your recollection? A. Yes.
Q. Now, from the date the Interim Order was entered,
- 2 6 8 -
how many days was it before school opened in Franklin
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Redirect
1453a
County; do you recall? A. It was a little less than a month
in which the teachers would have to report to work.
Q. A little less than 30 days? A. A little less than 30
days, yes.
Q. Now, at the time the Interim Order was entered in
this matter on the 27th of July, 1966, do you know how many
vacancies existed in the Franklin County school system for
teachers ? A. I don’t know exactly, but there were not very
many vacancies.
Q. Approximately how many, Mr. Smith? A. I would
say five or six vacancies.
Q. And from the time the Interim Order was entered in
this cause until school opened, or until the date the teachers
were to report for duty for the 1966-67 school year, how
many teachers were secured by the efforts of the Franklin
County Board of Education to cross racial lines? A. We
were able to secure these four teachers that I have just
mentioned.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, were you present in the Board of
Education office back in April—I believe the latter part of
April—of this year when Mrs. Edith Anderson testified in
this matter? A. Yes.
—269—
Q. Did you hear her testimony? A. Yes, I did.
Q. Do you recall what she said in respect to teaching
in any particular school within the Franklin County Ad
ministrative Unit? A. I don’t know the exact wording.
Q. Well, tell us the substance of it, if you recall. A.
She was asked was she willing to teach in any school in
the County, and she said if the Board of Education assigned
her, she would teach in any school, but she said: “Let me
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants—Redirect
1454a
make a statement that I prefer to teach in the school in
which I am now teaching.”
Q. And in what school was she teaching’ at the time she
testified? A. In the ’66-67 school year she taught in the
Gethsemane School.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, what, if anything, has the Board
of Education done—
The Court: Just one moment. Before we get
away from the deposition of Mrs. Edith Alston
Anderson who is a Negro teacher, age 34 years, she
testified, as I recall now her deposition, that no
member of the School Board or the School Admin
istration of the Franklin County Administrative Unit
has discussed faculty integration. Do you recall
—270—
her testimony to that effect! And am I correct—I
direct this generally to counsel—as to the substance
of her testimony in that regard?
Mr. Kennedy: That’s the way I remember it, your
Honor.
The Court: What’s that?
Mr. Kennedy: I remember her testimony being
essentially that.
The Court: Well, let’s let counsel for the defen
dants verify that.
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor please, I respect
fully refer the Court to pages 169 and 170, and so
forth, of Mrs. Anderson’s testimony. At the bottom
of page 169, referring to a meeting—that would be
before her testimony—I think she said “Tuesday
before last.”
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Redirect
1455a
(Whereupon, the following was read by Mr. Yar
borough from the deposition of Mrs. Anderson):
“Question: Was there a discussion of the topic
of integration of the faculty!
“Answer: At the same meeting?
“Question: Yes.
“Answer: Now, what do you mean by discussion?
You mean did we—
“Question: Was there a discussion of the topic
—2 7 1 -
in addition to the reading of the order?
“Answer: Yes, because there were some ques
tions asked, and that would constitute a discussion.
“Question: In the discussion was there mention
made that the School Board desired faculty integra
tion in Franklin County?
“Answer: Desired? I don’t know whether that
particular term was used or not.
“Question: Did Mr. Yarborough or any other
person speaking on behalf of the School Board re
quest that teachers and staff persons integrate the
faculty at the various schools in Franklin County?
“Answer: Did they request it?
“ Question: Did Mr. Yarborough or the Board re
quest it, yes.
“Answer: Now, the order was read and it was
stated several times that wherever you made your
application . . . ”
Mr. Schwelb: Your Honor, I can’t understand.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Redirect
1456a
The Court: I’m not following that, Mr. Yar
borough. Slow up, slow up, please.
Now, you are reading from the cross examination,
are you, or direct, or what?
Mr. Yarborough: Direct examination. Let me find
out. I didn’t know this question was going to be
raised.
—272—
Mr. Schwelb: Your Honor, if the general question
is directed to counsel, may I say this?
The Court: Oh, yes.
Mr. Schwelb: Five teachers testified in this case.
Two were called by the plaintiffs; three were called
by the defendants. The two who were called by
the plaintiffs—Plaintiff-Intervenor actually—were
Negro, Mrs. Anderson and Mr. Massenburg. Of the
three witnesses for the defendants, two were white
and one was Negro. I think it is a fair statement
that all five of them testified as follows: All went
to this meeting, all were told that they had a right
to apply to any school they wanted to and they would
get what they wanted; that all were shown a copy
of the Order, but that none of them was urged to
go either to a white school or to a Negro school.
I believe that is a fair description of the testimony
of those five.
The Court: Well, my recollection of Mr. Warren
E. Massenburg’s testimony was that no member of
the School Board had contacted him or corresponded
with him or asked him where he would like to teach
for the next year nor discussed the topic of faculty
integration. I may be mistaken, but now—
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants— Redirect
1457a
W a rren W , S m ith— fo r D efen d a n ts— R ed irect
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Mr. Schwelb: Well, at any rate, at one point they
had this meeting, and I think that probably—I didn’t
- 2 7 3 -
take the actual depositions, but I think that each
of them acknowledged that such a meeting was held,
but that it was not an urging, but they were advised
they could go. And I think that is what Mr. Smith
said this morning. And, further, your Honor, each
one of the five stated directly or by implication that
they would be willing, if assigned, to teach in the
opposite race school, each one of the five.
Mr. Davis: If your Honor please, as I recall the
testimony of Mr. Massenburg as related to the
Court this morning by Mr. Smith, he is the one that
made the statement that Mr. Yarborough said at the
meeting, “You name the school and you’ll get it,”
pertaining to the teachers. I recall his testimony.
I think that it’s on page 142 of his deposition.
Mr. Yarborough: May I inquire what five teachers
you were referring to?
Mr. Schwelb: I am talking about Mrs. Anderson,
Mr. Fleming, Mr. Massenburg, Mrs. George Griffin,
and Mrs. Sadie Suitt.
Mr. Yarborough: I understood Mr. Fleming to say
the very word that he was “encouraged.”
Mr. Schwelb: He used the word. He said he was
encouraged. Then he was asked howT he was en
couraged, and he then said he was told that he could
—274—
apply to any school he wanted. He wasn’t encour
aged to cross racial lines.
Mr. Yarborough: He said that he was encouraged.
1458a
Mr. Seliwelb: Well, that was his characterization.
That’s true, your Honor. He characterized it as
encouraged, then he gave the facts on which he based
it.
Mr. Yarborough: Would your Honor like for us
to undertake for us to find those tilings? If you will
indulge us for a moment.
The Court: Oh, I ’ll find them again. We found
them the first time. We’ll come up with them again.
I was just giving you my impression.
I didn’t know this matter was coming up either,
and I would not have mentioned it from the bench
if you hadn’t referred to the testimony of this one
teacher, Mrs. Anderson. I wanted to clarify my
recollection of what she said.
I also have the copy of the letter of communication
from Mr. Smith, the Superintendent, to the teachers,
principals, and supervisors of the Franklin County
schools relating to the opening of the schools for
the 1966-67 school term in which he welcomes the
teachers to the school session, sets down the dates
for teacher-principal orientation, teacher-parent
—2 7 5 -
orientation, and teacher-pupil orientation. He then
cites that portion of the Interim Order of July 27,
1966, which provides among other things that “Va
cant teaching positions in the future shall be open
to all applicants, and each filled with the best qual
ified applicant regardless of race. The Franklin
County School Board shall encourage transfers by
present members of the faculty to schools within the
system in which pupils are wholly or predominantly
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants— Redirect
1459a
of a race other than such teachers.” End of quota
tion. Paragraph. This, I assume, is a part of Mr.
Smith’s letter:
“ Therefore, if for the coming school year you
desire to transfer to a school within the Franklin
County system in which the pupils are wholly or
predominantly of a race other than yours, this is to
ask that you promptly notify the Superintendent in
writing, preferably by return mail, as teachers must
report to their respective schools three weeks from
this day. If you apply for such a transfer, the Board
of Education will endeavor to honor your request
in the light of any existing vacancies in your field in
the school to which you ask for transfer.”
Now, I understand that that letter, the tone and
import of it, is similar to the testimony of Mr. Smith
this morning.
All right, you may continue.
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor please, if the
—2 7 6 -
Court will permit me, that letter—I don’t recall the
date—sometime early in August, I presume, of 1966
—that’s what Mr. Smith just testified to, there were
only four or five or six vacancies in the system at
the time, four of which were filled by efforts of the
Board or its representatives. I just invite your at
tention to the fact that practically all of the posi
tions were filled, and they had only three weeks, I
think, from the date of that letter, and it was an
effort for the Board and Mr. Smith to acquaint all
of the teachers with the pertinent portions of the
Order that the Board was to encourage transfers,
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Redirect
1460a
and if there were any vacancies, that they would be
pleased to receive the applications.
The Court: Mr. Yarborough, how many teachers
will there be in the Franklin County Administrative
Unit for this coming year, 1967-68, that are new
teachers who did not teach the last school year?
Mr. Yarborough: I do not know, sir. I don't know
whether Mr. Smith—if you can, answer that, Mr.
Smith.
B y the C o u rt:
Q. If you will, Mr. Smith, give us that information. A.
This will be entirely an estimate right now. You mean for
the next school year?
Q. Yes, sir. New teachers.
—277—
Mr. Schwelb: Your Honor, while Mr. Smith is
computing, I might give the Court some guide. Ac
cording to the answers to the interrogatories, in the
’66-67 school year they employed 25 new white
teachers and 24 new Negro teachers.
Mr. Yarborough: That’s for the past school year?
Mr. Schwelb: That’s right. That’s for the past
school year.
The Court: Twenty-five, you say, what?
Mr. Schwelb: Twenty-five white and twenty-four
Negro school teachers. That is for the past school
year.
Mr. Yarborough: Sir, that was not after the
entering of the Interim Order. I understood it was
only four or five after that date.
The Court: I understand.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Redirect
1461a
A. (Continuing) I would say my estimate at this time
would be around 30.
B y Mr, Yarborough:
Q. In the system! A. Yes, in the system.
Mr. Yarborough: Well, if your Honor please,—
The Court: Just one minute.
—278—
B y the C o u r t:
Q. Well, Mr. Smith, in the light of the Interim Order
am I correct in assuming that none of the 30 have been
employed with race, color, or national origin as a factor
in their selection? A. No, sir, these recommendations come
up to me from the principal and the advisory council, and
then—
Q. Well, now, I am not particularly interested in where
the recommendations come from. I want to know whether
or not in the employment of the 30 new teachers that have
been employed to teach in the Franklin County system
since the entry of the Interim Order in July of 1966, race,
color or national origin has been a factor in the hiring or
assignment of any one or more of those 30 teachers!
Mr. Davis: Your Honor, may I interrupt one min
ute? I think he said, if I understood him correctly,
there would be 30 vacancies for the coming year.
I don’t believe he said that there would be 30
employed.
B y the C o u r t:
Q. Well, what did you say? A. Thirty for the coming
year.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Redirect
1462a
Q. Employed? A. To be employed.
Q. Well, bow many have been employed? A. Of thirty
—279—
new teachers, I would say maybe twenty.
Q. Twenty have already been employed. There are ten
vacancies remaining yet to be filled, is that right? A. That
is an estimate, yes, sir.
Q. Of the twenty teachers who have been employed,
state whether or not race, color, or national origin has
been a factor in the hiring or the assignment of any one
or more of those twenty teachers. A. No, sir. We try
to get the best qualified regardless of race.
Q. How many of the twenty are Negro teachers? A. Of
the twenty? I guess half of them.
Q. Have those twenty teachers been assigned for the
next school year, the 1967-68 school year? A. Yes, sir.
Assuming that twenty is the number.
Q. How many have been assigned to schools in which
the race is predominantely of a race other than the teach
er’s? In other words, how many of the twenty who are
Negro teachers have been assigned to predominantly white
schools, and how many of the twenty who are white have
been assigned to teach in predominantly Negro schools?
A. We have one completely new teacher who has not been
in the system—white teacher assigned to a predominantly
Negro school.
Q. Of any of the twenty new teachers, has any Negro
—280—
teacher been assigned to teach in a predominantly white
school? A. I don’t believe any of these are new ones.
Of course, I was including possibly in this number even
those positions that were open in one school and they came
from another school.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Redirect
1463a
Q, Did I not understand you to testify, Mr. Smith, that
for the next school year you would employ 30 new teachers,
to he employed in the entire system, who had not previ
ously taught in the system; and that of that thirty, twenty
had now been employed, and there yet remains ten to be
employed? Am I mistaken in my recollection? A. That
is just about right. When I counted up the 30, for instance,
it might be that this teacher would not teach in this school
and wanted to teach in another school. I would call that
a vacancy, but it’s not a new person to the entire County.
Q. Well, now, since you are employing teachers, and will,
I understand, employ all 30 teachers without any consider
ation to race, color, or national origin, either in the hiring
or the assignment of these teachers, do you not therefore
have the right to assign these teachers to any school that
you or the School Board desire to assign them to? A.
Well, on this objective criteria that we presented last
—281-
summer where the teacher makes application to the school
at which they want to teach, I believe the criteria says we
will try our best to honor their choice, their desire.
Q. You require, then, every applicant for a new teach
ing position to designate the school which they prefer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. If, perchance, a Negro applicant were to express a
choice to teach in a white school, would that factor influ
ence you or your Board in hiring that teacher with that
preference? A. No, sir, if the recommendation came on
up from—
Q. Recommendation from whom? A. From the princi
pal and advisory council.
Q. Well, would it influence the principal, if you know,
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Redirect
1464a
any of your principals in their recommendation? The fact
that a Negro teacher had requested employment in a white
school, do you think that would influence any of your prin
cipals in recommending to you or to your Board the em
ployment or the rejection of that application? A. If the
best qualified person—
The Court: You haven’t answered my question,
Mr. Smith. Bead the question back to him and let’s
see if he can answer it. And we will assume for
the purpose of the question that the qualifications
are the same.
—282—
(Last question read by Reporter.)
The Court: Now, as to that, assuming that the
qualifications of the applicant met your standards.
A. No, sir.
The Court: You may proceed.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. I believe you are charged under the law with nom
inating teachers to the Board of Education for hiring;
is that right, Mr. Smith? A. Yes, sir.
Q. State whether or not race would be a factor in your
nomination of any teacher to the Board of Education for
employment. A. No.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, I believe we were discussing Mrs.
Edith Alston Anderson and you recall, of course, what
you remember in the course of her testimony. As a result
of Mrs. Anderson’s testimony what, if any, steps did the
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants■—Redirect
1465a
Board of Education or any of its representatives take to
encourage Mrs. Anderson to teach in a predominantly
white school? A. There was a position in the Louisburg
School in Mrs. Anderson’s field.
—283—
Q. And what is her field? A. Public school music.
Q. All right, go ahead. A. And I notified the principal
of the Louisburg School that Mrs. Anderson had said that
she would teach
er Who is the principal of the Louisburg School? A.
Mr. A. D. Fox. And Mr. Fox contacted Mrs. Anderson,
and I believe the first time he contacted her she would
not accept the position.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, I know the Court
has admitted hearsay evidence rather extensively,
but we just want to note an exception at this stage.
The Court: Very well.
Mr. Schwelb: We join in that, your Honor.
The Court: All right, go ahead, Mr. Smith.
A. (Continuing) And I believe the principal had to contact,
or did contact her several times, but in the final analysis
she is under contract in the Louisburg School.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. And as far as you know, she will teach in the Louis
burg School for the ’67-68 school year? A. As far as I
know.
Q. And what courses or subjects will she teach? A.
Primarily public school music. I do not know the other
duties that she might have.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Redirect
1466a
—284—
Q. And state whether or not in carrying out her duties
as a public school music teacher she will go into the class
rooms and actually teach the students. A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, I believe you testified that a Mrs.
Holt taught at Bunn School for this 1966-67 school year!
A. That’s correct.
Q. I believe you further testified that she is not going
to teach there for the coming school year? A. That’s
correct.
Q. Do you know why she will not teach at the Bunn
School for the coming school year? A. It is my under
standing that her husband is not well, and she feels that
she needs to be in the home looking after him.
Q. Do you know whether or not anybody has been em
ployed to replace Mrs. Holt? A. Yes.
Q. And who is that? A. Mrs. Willie Morgan.
Q. And what is Mrs. Morgan’s race? A. Negro.
Q. Now, can you relate to the Court what steps have
—285—
been taken by the Board of Education or any of its repre
sentatives in the employment of Mrs. Morgan for the
Bunn School? A. Yes. This is information that she has
indicated through her husband. Her husband had indicated
that she would teach in any school; it was relayed to the
principal of the Bunn School—through his contact, she
has been employed to teach in the Bunn School.
Q. Now, state whether or not Mrs. Morgan was employed
by the County Administrative Unit for the 1966-67 school
year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And where was she employed? A. In the Youngs-
ville Elementary School.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants— Redirect
1467a
Q. Mr. Smith, in cross examination by Mr. Sehwelb this
morning you testified that there are some students living
in the Youngsville area and some students living in the
Epsom area who are attending Riverside School in Louis-
burg; is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. And state whether or not the students living in those
two areas are attending Riverside School under the exer
cise of a freedom of choice? A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, back in March of this year state
—286—
whether or not freedom of choice forms were mailed or
sent to parents of students attending schools in the Frank
lin County Administrative Unit. A. Yes.
Q. And state whether or not the forms, all of the forms,
to your knowledge were returned by the parents to the
Franklin County Board of Education. A. To my knowl
edge, all of them have been returned.
Q. And to your knowledge, state whether or not every
choice indicated on the form returned was granted. A.
Yes.
Q. And the students will at this point attend the schools
requested for the 1967-68 school year? A. They have been
assigned to the school that was requested.
Mr. Sehwelb: Your Honor, since I have to leave
in a hurry, I wonder if I could ask one or two
questions while they are preparing.
Mr. Yarborough: Go ahead.
B y M r. S eh w elb :
Q. There seems to be some misunderstanding about the
new teachers you have hired for next year, Mr. Smith.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Redirect
1468a
Now, you mentioned you hired five to cross racial lines
for next year, is that right, with a possible sixth? A. Yes.
—287—
Q. Of those five, one is Mrs. Anderson and one is Mrs.
Morgan; is that right? A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mrs. Anderson testified for the plaintiff in this
case? A. Yes.
Q. And Mrs. Morgan’s husband testified for the plain
tiff in this case? A. Yes.
Q. So those two were basically located for you by the
Government, those two willing persons? A. Well—
Q. They were brought to your attention by the Govern
ment? A. Yes.
Q. So that that leaves three, doesn’t it? A. Yes.
Q. And you had four last year, is that right? A. Yes.
Mr. Schwelb: That’s all for the time being.
B y M r. Davis-.
Q. Mr. Smith, I believe Warren Massenburg also testi
fied for the Government in this case; is that correct, sir?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
—288—
Q. And I believe he is a teacher in the Franklin County
system? A. Yes.
Q. And what race is Mr. Massenburg? A. Negro.
Q. Do you recall the substance of his testimony with
respect to his preference for teaching in the Franklin
County system? A. I believe in his testimony he stated
he would teach in any school in the County.
Q. As a result of his testimony, what steps, if any,
were taken by you or representatives of the Board of Ed
ucation? A. I told several of the principals as they came
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants— Redirect
1469a
into my office that he had expressed or had said that he
would teach in any school; and over a period of several
weeks no one came up with a place for him.
Q. And state whether or not you had any communication
with Mr. Massenburg after his testimony concerning his
teaching for next year? A. I had, it seems to me, several
telephone calls and a letter.
Q. Can you tell the Court the substance of the telephone
calls and the letter that you received from Mr. Massenburg?
—289—
A. He indicated to me that he had made application for
the Riverside School and it was his understanding that
you make application to the school in which you want to
teach, and that would be the school you would get, and that
was the school he wanted; and he wrote me a letter with a
similar substance.
Q. And what school did he tell you that he wanted? A.
That he wanted to teach in the Riverside School.
Q. And that was after he testified in this case? A. Yes.
Q. And state whether or not he has been assigned for
next year. A. Yes.
Q. To what school? A. The Riverside School.
Q. Mr. Smith, state whether or not since the entering
of the Interim Order in this matter in July of 1966 you
have had any conversation with your principals concern
ing their securing teachers to cross racial lines. A. Yes.
Q. Can you relate to the Court what your conversation
was? A. It was in the principals’ meeting I brought this
out—for them to get the best teacher regardless of race,
and also at different times I would tell the principals,
—2 9 0 -
individual principals, to get the—and in fact to integrate
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Redirect
1470a
their faculties provided they could get the best qualified
for that position.
Q. State whether or not you have ever told individual
principals to integrate their faculties taking into considera
tion the best qualified person available. A. Yes.
Q. You have told principals that since the Interim Order
was entered in July of 1967 (1966?)? A. Yes.
Mr. Chambers: We would like to enter the same
objection. Not only is it hearsay, but it is quite lead
ing.
The Court: All right.
Mr. Davis: All right, examine him.
Recross Examination hy Mr. Chambers:
Q. Mr. Smith, I have just a few questions, and I would
like to start with the teachers. I will try to shorten this.
Would you state whether the essence of your performance
under the Interim Order has been merely to advise the
teachers that the Court entered an Interim Order requir
ing that you assign teachers without regard to race, and
that you encouraged teachers to transfer, and that you
advised teachers that if they wanted to transfer you would
—291—
consider their applications? A. If I understand every
thing you said, yes.
Q. And that’s the essence of your efforts under the
Interim Order?
Mr. Davis: I don’t believe he understood the
question.
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Recross
1471a
The Court: Well, I don’t know whether he did or
not. If he didn’t, he can say so.
A. There was more to the Interim Order than just that.
Q. Now, would you state to the Court whether you or
any member of the Board have met individually with the
teachers or have communicated with the teachers and re
quested that they transfer across racial lines? A. At this
meeting back in April, the entire Board and the attorney
for the Board of Education and I met with the teachers.
Q. My question was: Did you request that the teachers
transfer across racial lines? A. Yes, I believe in this
letter last summer it asked—or the question, I believe, was
in the letter.
Q. Is that the sum total of your request—the letter of
last fall? A. No.
Q. Now, I believe there has been deposition testimony
of the present principal of Edward Best School— A. Yes.
—292—
Q- —who testified about the letter he received and also
about the meeting you had with the teachers in April?
A. Yes.
Q. Where Mr. Yarborough and members of the Board of
Education and you were present? A. Yes.
Q. I believe that the testimony of the five teachers who
have testified—have stated that you only advised them
of the order and advised them that you would consider
their applications if they expressed a desire to transfer.
A. I don’t know that all of these who testified said exactly
that.
Q. Certainly four of them testified to that, did they not?
A. It seems to me that one of the five said—I believe the
Transcript of Trial—July 35-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Recross
1472a
testimony about—in reference to teachers, “You ask for it;
you get it.”
Q. Now, I believe you stated that you have 20 new
teachers that you have already hired for 1967-68? A. Ap
proximately that.
Q. And of this number, one white teacher has been as
signed to a predominantly Negro school? A. Entirely new
to the County, one.
Q. And all the others have been assigned to the school
where their race is in the majority? A. Yes, if 20 is
—293—
correct, if that figure is correct.
Q. Now, you also testified about combination grades
and said that the State Department said that there is
nothing bad about combination grades ? A. That’s correct.
Q. I ask you, Mr. Smith, if the State Department or
any other educational expert recommends combination
grades as the preferable educational practice? A. I do
not know whether they recommend it, but I do know they
said it was not bad, that there is no such thing as a straight
grade.
Q. They do not recommend that you have combination
grades? A. I do not know that they recommend it.
Q, And in your professional opinion, is it preferable to
have combination grades or a single teacher for one grade?
A. Well, it’s much easier to get a teacher to teach just
one grade in most cases.
Q. You also testified about the allotments, and you de
scribed on the board that if you had 100 high schools, you
would have 55 teachers? A. Yes.
Q. In the high school department? A. Yes.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants—Recross
1473a
— 294—
Q. No, assuming that what you have there is true, I ’ll
ask you to look at what has been identified as Plaintiffs’
Exhibit No. 1, Paragraph 11(B) 1 through 4, and state to
the Court whether if you had only 55 teachers, that provi
sion or those provisions would allow for additional allot
ment of teachers to the school system! A. (Beading) Sec
tion B—Quote. “Bevision of the allotment of teachers after
the beginning of the school term . . . ”
Q. If you could just state, you won’t have to read all
of that. A. Well, it says here, briefly, that after two
weeks from the beginning of the school year 1967-68 if the
average daily attendance per teacher allotted in the base
allotment to an administrative unit, high school and ele
mentary separately, has been as many as 31 pupils per
teacher, an additional teacher or teachers may be allotted
provided that the attendance for the best continuous six
months of the first seven months of 1966-67 was sufficient
to continue in the original allotment for the 1967-68 addi
tional positions which were allotted at the close of the first
two weeks of the 1966-67 school term.
Q. This paragraph B of II, then, would allow for addi
tional allotments of teachers after your 55 base was de
termined! A. Yes.
— 295—
Q. And I ’ll ask you if Paragraph D, also of Boman
Number II would not allow for additional allotments un
der certain circumstances! A. I have sort of lost your
question.
Q. Would Paragraph D of Boman Number II allow for
additional allotments of teachers! A. This is where trans
fers are between administrative units. That means—
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Recross
1474a
Q. Is it not also within administrative units? A. No,
I do not interpret this to be within administrative units.
Q. Now, the 55 allotment that you figured out if you had
one high school does not include teachers who would be
or could be provided for under ESEA? A. No.
Q. So the teachers that you now have in the system
some of them are paid for by ESEA funds? A. Yes.
Q. So you would have in addition to the 55 there the
ESEA teachers? A. Yes.
Q. Now, if you were to combine Gethsemane and Bunn,
Gold Sand and Perry’s, Louisburg and Riverside high
schools, you would have five high schools in Franklin
County, would you not? A. That’s correct.
—296—
Q. So the figure 55 would not be correct for the base
number of teachers that would be allotted to the high
schools? A. You would have to throw in another formula
on that. Well, the same formula, but where you have four
teachers for the first 80—let’s see, that would be five
schools—
Q. The additional schools would carry three teachers
for the first 60 students, would they not? A. Seems like
it would be—
Q. I call your attention to Paragraph B of Roman Num
ber II, subparagraph 1. A. This one right here.
Q. That would show the formula that would then apply?
A. At the end of two weeks.
Q. I ’m sorry. It would be Paragraph Roman Number II-
A-l-c? A. That’s correct. That would be the one that
would apply.
Q. Now, you have given us the advantages of a small
school and the disadvantages of a large school that you
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Recross
1475a
read from the source that you stated earlier. Would you
—297—
tell the Court the disadvantages of a small school that the
report gives? A. I ’ll give you that from the same source.
B y the C o u r t :
Q. Now, what source are you using, Mr. Smith? A. This
is Edmonson, Romer, and Baker again—the disadvantages
of the small high school.
Q. Now, at that point do they give any better or clearer
definition of what they mean by a “small” high school ? A.
No. This is the same source that I gave this morning
about the fewer than 200 where it says that the majority
of the schools in the United States are less than 200
students.
B y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. I believe your range this morning was from 200 to
1000 as a medium size school? A. Well, that was a sup
position by saying if 200 or below is a small school and
over 1000 is a large school, we would take in between as
a medium size school.
1. Teacher’s specialization. In other words, they mean
the lack of teacher’s specialization in all areas.
2. Low salaries. That, of course, does not apply here
in North Carolina, in that an elementary teacher gets the
same pay as the high school teacher or a teacher in a
—298-
big school on the State schedule.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Recross
1476a
Q. On that same point, Mr, Smith, is it not true that
with the smaller school you have a teacher with combina
tion classes that you testified to earlier? A. It could be,
but not necessarily in a high school.
Q. Is it not true that in Franklin County in several of
your high schools you have teachers teaching more than
one subject? A. Yes, but we do not call it combination
grades in high school.
Q. I understand. I ’m just talking about the multiple
subjects that they would be teaching. A. (Continuing)
3. Less diversified curriculum.
4. May not be trained directors of student activities.
B y the Court-.
Q. What’s that again? A. May not be trained directors
of student activities, specialists to direct certain activities
I think is what it means.
5. Program restricted.
B y M r. C h a m b ers :
Q. Are there other disadvantages? A. No. This was
the five listed in this book.
Q. Then, Mr. Smith, you have testified that the Frankiin-
—2 9 9 -
ton School District was a separate unit from the Franklin
County School Unit? A. Yes.
Q. It is true, is it not, that the Franklin County School
Unit is responsible for the buses for the Franklinton School
Unit? A. As far as the upkeep, and so forth, yes.
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Recross
1477a
Q. So it isn’t really just a separate unit with no ties at
all with the Franklin County School Unit? A. Well, that’s
the only area I can think of in which we would deal with
the Franklinton Administrative Unit, and that is an ar
rangement with the State Board of of Education.
Mr. Chambers: Thank you, Mr. Smith, I have no
further questions.
R ecro ss E xam in ation by M r. Schw elb :
Q. Mr. Smith, you have been on a long time and I won’t
trouble you very much longer, but let me ask you this.
You testified, I think, that the reason for the high dis
parity between the predominantly white schools and the
predominantly Negro schools in acreage per pupil was be
cause Louisburg was so big and that made a big difference!
A. Yes, that does make a big difference.
Q. Would it surprise you to know that in value per pupil,
—300—
according to the 1965-66 figure if you compute it without
Louisburg, the white schools still remain at $867 as con
trasted at that time with $285 for Negro schools? A.
What are you—
Q. Well, maybe we had better do it on the blackboard.
Mr. Schwelb: Your Honor, may we approach the
blackboard and do a little arithmetic?
The Court: Yes, sir.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, for 1965-66 in the predominantly
white schools let’s take the acreage. You notice there are
2688 pupils; is that true? A. Yes.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Recross
1478a
Q. And 107.7 acres? A. Yes.
Q. Now, will you subtract the Louisburg from the 2688!
A. Yes.
Q. That comes to 2002 pupils, does it not? A. Yes.
Q. And if you subtract 40 acres from 107.7 you get
how much? A. 67.7.
Q. Well, let’s see how many pupils per acre. Doesn’t
it come just under 30, Mr. Smith? A. Yes.
—301—
Q. Will you accept just under 30 pupils per acre? A.
Yes.
Q. If you take the Negro schools where you have 36.5
acres and 3457 pupils, won’t that come to somewhere be
tween 90 and 100 pupils per acre? A. I suppose so.
Q. So it will still be between 90 and 100 to 30? A. Yes.
Q. Would you say that approximately the same differ
ence would be made if you subtracted Louisburg from the
money value per pupil? A. On the entire value of every
thing at Louisburg?
Q. Well, I mean if you compute the value of the build
ings and equipment per pupil of the white schools with
out Louisburg, and you compute that with the Negro
schools, the subtraction of Louisburg will make some dif
ference but not a wholly significant difference; is that
true ? A. I don’t know. I doubt that it would be the same
ratio between acres and the total value of the property,
in that that is the newest school in the system.
Q. Isn’t it true, Mr. Smith, that as of 1965-66 Epsom
School was $1155 per acre?
Mr. Schwelb : Let me approach the witness, your
Honor, and we can do this quicker.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants— Recross
1479a
Q. How much is Edward Best High? A. $852.
Q. And Epsom? A. $1155.26.
Q. And Gold Sand? A. $958.67.
Q. And Youngsville High? A. $900.69.
Q. And Bunn? A. $804.32.
Q. And Louisburg? A. $1052.47.
Q. So at least the other high schools on the predomi
nantly white side are in the same general league as Louis
burg, aren’t they—same general value per pupil? I mean
they vary from $800 to $1100, and Louisburg is $1050? A.
Yes.
Q. Now, let’s go back to teachers a moment, Mr. Smith.
I understood you to say and your counsel to say in ques
tioning you that the reason you could only get four teachers
to cross racial lines last year was because there was such
a short time between the Interim Order and the opening
of school; is that right? A. Yes.
—303—
Q. And that since then you have had a. year, is that
right? A. Yes.
Q. And through the fact that the Government called
some witnesses you found two, and beyond those two you
just found three for next year; isn’t that right? A. That’s
correct.
Q. Now, the time problem was not the primary reason
for that, was it? A. Well, it probably was not all the
reason.
Q. Well, I mean you have had a year instead of three or
four weeks, haven’t you? A. No, we haven’t had a year.
Q. It isn’t a year since the Interim Order? A. I mean
we didn’t know how many vacancies we would have. We
don’t know that a year in advance.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants— Recross
— 302—
1480a
Q. Well, can’t you make vacancies by exchanging
teachers? A. I guess it could be done, but—
Q. It could be done; is that what you testify? A. But
we would not be following our criteria.
Q. Is it your testimony you wouldn’t be following your
criteria if you got a Negro teacher to switch with a white
teacher? A. Oh, yes, if they were—
—304—
Q. Now, you testified that you took advantage of what
you found out about Mrs. Morgan and Mrs. Anderson and
even Mr. Massenburg, who testified for the plaintiff, and
had some contact with them for the purpose of crossing
racial lines thereafter? A. Yes.
Q. And, of course, there were three witnesses called by
your side in this case, weren’t there, who also testified
similarly or somewhat similarly, Mr. Fleming, Mrs. Griffin,
and Mrs. Suitt? A. Yes.
Q. Now, what contacts did you have with them there
after to get them to cross racial lines? A. Of course, Mrs.
Griffin will not be teaching in any school this next year as
it now stands.
Q. Pardon? A. As it now stands—maternity reasons.
Q. Did you approach her before you found that out? A.
I think the fact was fairly well known before.
Q. I take it now Mr. Fleming, of course, was made prin
cipal of Edward Best High School? A. Yes.
Q. And that is a predominantly white high school? A.
Yes.
Q. And Mrs. Suitt is remaining at Riverside or rather
—305—
at whatever school she taught at before? A. As it now
stands, Perry’s.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants— Recross
1481a
Q. Let me ask you one other thing about these advisory
committees. How are they composed? Racially I mean.
Let’s say at the predominantly Negro schools are the ad
visory committee members Negroes? A. The majority.
Q. Well, they are patrons of the school, aren’t they? A.
In the predominantly Negro schools?
Q. Yes. A. And you are asking the question, are the
advisory members Negro?
Q. Yes. A. I would say predominantly.
Q. Do you know of any white person who is a member
of any advisory committee in any of those schools? A. No.
Q. Do you know of any Negro who is a member of an
advisory committee at a white school? A. No.
Q. And so really it’s up to the principals and the advi
sory committees of these Negro schools to find white
teachers to teach for them and to recommend them to you?
A. Not entirely.
Q. Well, largely? A. They have a great part to play.
—306—
Q. The part is that they recommend and evaluate new
teachers? A. Yes, they play a part.
Q. You read the objective standards for employment and
assignment of teachers that your council filed earlier this
year, didn’t you? A. Yes.
Q. And what you wrote in that is still true now—the
policies that you described and practices are still true now?
A. Yes.
Mr. Sehwelb: Nothing further, your Honor.
B y the C o u rt:
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, I have several questions. During
the years that you have had any integrated faculties in
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Recross
1482a
any schools within your system, have you experienced any
administrative, practical, or other problems arising out of
such faculty integration as you have had? A. No, sir.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, if for next year you should have
at least two or more teachers of the minority race on each
faculty within your system, do you now know of any ad
ministrative, practical, or other problems that would arise
—307—
as a result of that? A. Assuming that we can get these
positions filled?
Q. Yes. A. No, sir.
Q. Now, one final question which occurs to me at the
moment: There has been some testimony in this trial in
the depositions and I think from the witness stand, as I
recall, that there have been certain bombings of the homes
of certain Negroes whose children or grandchildren or
other children to whom they occupy the position of parent
in loco parentis—that there have been bombings of those
homes, shootings into those homes, contamination of wells
at certain of these homes. Do you know whether or not
there have been any arrests or convictions of any person
or persons for any of those alleged acts of intimidation?
A. No, sir.
Mr. Schwelb: Excuse me, your Honor, I don’t
understand. Does he say he doesn’t know; or no,
they haven’t?
A. No, I know of none.
(At this point a fifteen-minute recess was taken.)
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants—Recross
1483a
R ed irec t E xam in ation by M r. D a v is :
Q. Mr. Smith, for a point of clarification, in response to
—308—
a question that was propounded to you a while ago, you
answered that the advisory committee for the predomi
nantly colored schools were made up of predominantly
colored people. Would you explain what you meant by the
phrase “predominantly colored people” on the advisory
committees! A. In two of the predominantly Negro
schools there is an Indian on the advisory council in each
of these schools.
Q. And what schools are they, please? A. The River
side School and the Perry’s School.
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, as I understood the answer that you
gave in response to a question propounded to you by the
Court, you said in your opinion there would be no trouble,
or no problems I believe you said, administrative problems
or otherwise, if two or more teachers of one race were
in the schools where the students are of another race. Now,
I believe you qualified that by saying provided the posi
tions could be filled. Will you explain what you meant by
provided the positions could be filled? A. Well, first of
all, if the person is wiling to teach in these schools and,
secondly, if they are in field.
Q. In field? A. In field.
Q. In other words, teaching in the field in which they
- 3 0 9 -
are qualified? A. In which they are certified to teach.
Q. You mean by that an English teacher teaching Eng
lish? A. Yes.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Reredirect
1484a
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
W a rren W . S m ith— fo r D efen d a n ts—R ered irec t
B y the C o u r t:
Q. Just one minute. You say provided they are willing
to teach in the school? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, don’t you hire them to teach in the system, and
can’t you assign them to any school within the system that
you desire? A. Yes, sir. What I meant, though, after you
assign them, you know, whether they would go.
Q. Well, they are under contract with you, aren’t they!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. If they refused to go, isn’t that a breach of contract
and wouldn’t that just about put them out of the teaching
profession for all practical purposes? A. In the adminis
trative units teachers do resign. I don’t know whether it
would be the same type of breaking a contract as you are
referring to or not.
Q. Well, they understand when you employ them that
they are being employed by an integrated school system,
—310—
don’t they? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, you wouldn’t then expect them to raise any
objection to teaching at any school that you assign them
to within the integrated system; would you expect any from
them? A. I wouldn’t expect it, but, of course, there is the
possibility.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, what are the State regulations for
teachers who are teaching grades or courses outside of
their certified field? A. They get a reductionn in salary.
Q. Do you know how much that is? A. It’s $10 per
month.
1485a
Mr. Chambers: If your Honor please, while coun
sel are conferring, may I ask Mr. Smith one question?
The Court: If they have no objection.
Mr. Yarborough: We have no objection, sir.
B y M r. C h am bers:
Q. Mr. Smith, isn’t it true that you have in your system
today teachers who might be certified in one subject teach
ing another subject? A. Yes.
—311—
Q. Isn’t it also true that those teachers are receiving a
straight salary rather than any cut in salary? A. Yes.
They can be in field and teach—as long as they are teaching
one-half of the time in field, in the certified area.
Q. What about the teachers in grades 7, 8 and 9, who
have subject certificates and are teaching elementary
grades? A. This out of field business would apply to those
teaching in the ninth grade.
Q. You mean that if you have an English certificate and
teach science, the State would require that you cut the
teacher’s salary by $10 in high school grades nine through
twelve if they teach more than half of the day out of field,
out of what they are certified in? A. Out of what they are
certified in, they get a cut in salary.
Q. The State doesn’t provide for any exception to that
policy? A. Not that I know of.
Q. Not that you know of? A. No.
Q. You are not testifying that it does not? A. To my
knowledge there are no exceptions.
—312—
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. Now, Mr. Smith, state whether or not during the
1966-67 school year there were positions within the Franklin
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W, Smith—for Defendants—Reredirect
1486a
County Administrative Unit that were never filled with
teachers. A. Yes.
Q. Do you know how many there were? A. Two. No, I
beg your pardon, one.
Q. And state whether or not any applicant could be
found for that position. A. We were not able to get any
one to apply for that position.
Q. When you say you were not able to get anyone to
apply for it, you mean you were not able to find anybody
who could teach in that position! A. That is correct.
B y the C o u r t:
Q. What year was that, Mr. Smith? A. This past year,
’66-67.
B y M r. D a v is :
Q. State whether or not, Mr. Smith, during the 1966-67
school year there were teacher positions filled in the
Franklin County Administrative Unit after school opened.
A. Yes.
—313—
Q. And how many teacher positions were filled after
school opened? A. There were two positions.
Q. Why did you wait so long, Mr. Smith, to hire teachers
to fill those two positions? A. We were just not able to
find someone to take these positions.
Q. Mr. Smith, in respect to the bombings and other mat
ters that the Court asked you about awhile ago, state
whether or not you know whether the FBI, the SBI, and
the Franklin County Sheriff’s Department made extensive
investigations of each of those matters. A. Yes.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants— Reredirect
1487a
Q. Yes what? A. They made investigations.
Mr. Davis: No further questions.
B y the C o u r t:
Q. I hate to ask you anything further, Mr. Smith, but
I am anxious to know whether or not to your knowledge
the Franklin Administrative Unit has at any time in the
past provided funds for athletic facilities such as lights
or bleachers or equipment or shrubs or any of these things
which you have testified are now being furnished by
Parent-Teacher Associations and clubs of one sort or
—314—
another? A. We do have a policy now that we will match.
If they come up with a certain amount of money for, say,
bleachers, we’ll match it.
Q. When did you start the matching? A. Seems like
it was about a year ago.
Q. Now, was there a time when public funds were used
for these purposes without matching? A. I do not know
of any.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith— for Defendants— Reredirect
The Court: All right, you may stand aside.
Mr. Davis: May I ask him one further question,
your Honor?
The Court: Yes, sir.
R ed irec t E xam in ation b y M r. D a v is :
Q. To qualify that matching of funds for bleachers,
state whether or not that is for the gymnasium. A. Yes,
bleachers. Where the local school if they raise one dollar,
the Board will match it with one dollar.
1488a
Q. And is that the only purpose for which the Board of
Education agrees to spend money for athletic facilities or
anything? A. Yes.
Q. And that is for the gymnasium? A. That’s right.
—315—
Mr. Davis: That is all.
The Court: You may stand aside, Mr. Smith.
Gentlemen, it is now 4:30. Unfortunately we will
have to cut your argument time from 45 minutes to
30 minutes to the side, that is, unless counsel desire
to waive argument.
Mr. Schwelb: I am willing to waive argument if
counsel opposite will waive argument.
The Court: Well, I am not going to suggest that
counsel waive the argument. I will be delighted to
hear from either or both sides; and if you have to
go, Mr. Schwelb, I am certain some of your asso
ciates can fill in the argument.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, I want to put in
some exhibits.
The Court: All right, let’s get those in.
Mr. Schwelb: If we are going to have argument,
your Honor, could I start now and put in the ex
hibits in just a few minutes? And I will try to be
brief with this whole thing.
The Court: Yes, that will be all right.
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor please, whether
or not certain exhibits, one or two, are put in might
require a little further testimony in rebuttal. Could
you tell us what exhibits you have?
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Warren W. Smith—for Defendants—Reredirect
1489a
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
— 316—
(Discussion off the record.)
The Court: Mr. Schwelb, I am going to let you
begin your argument, because if any more testi
mony is offered, you won’t be here for it, so you
might as well proceed.
Mr. Schwelb: May it please the Court, I shall
try to be briefer than I sometimes tend to be.
The Court wrote a letter to counsel a few days
ago, preliminary to this case, and asked that the
various sides try to get together on the case; if they
couldn’t get together, to get certain information,
and in getting that information together we were
able to give a general picture of how far desegrega
tion has gone in Franklin County over the past
years. I think the starting point of the argument,
the evaluation of this case, has to be, as your Honor
indicated from that letter to some extent, what they
have accomplished. I think if you start there, you
see that in the year 1967, thirteen years after the
B b o w n decision, 98.5% of the Negro students con
tinue to go to Negro schools, and 100% of the white
students continue to go to white schools; that the
majority of the schools remain totally segregated,
in fact, in both pupils and teachers.
These figures contrast—just to permit us perhaps'
a vantage point to see where Franklin County is with
— 317—
the rest of the world, it’s about one-tenth of where
North Carolina as a whole is with pupils; it’s a
little better than a half of where Mississippi was
1490a
last year. And with respect to classroom teachers
and teachers generally, they had four teachers last
year, they testified; only one was actually a class
room teacher, and that was for five hours a week,
Mr. Smith testified; the others were librarian or a
similar position. This year so far they have gone up
to about five, of whom two they located through the
Government calling them for a deposition in this
case, leaving three.
With respect to pupil desegregation, the freedom
of choice went down from 48 to 45, I believe, and
in teachers it went down except for the two that
the Government furnished them.
And so, when you look at Franklin County, you
can see that in just about everything but theory it’s
still just about a totally segregated system. The
white schools are white; the Negro schools are
Negro. Most of the defendants’ witnesses testified
when asked that they understood the choice to be
between white schools and Negro schools, and so
did Reverend Coppedge when he testified for us
yesterday.
Now, of course, it’s possible that these results
that I have just described are the result of just
the Negroes’ great desire to go to segregated, in-
—3 1 8 -
inferior schools; because I think the proof is un
challengeable that the Negro schools are very, very,
very much inferior. But I think in the realm of
reality, when you compare these figures with others,
it seems very unlikely that this happened just by
accident, that there was nothing the School Board
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1491a
did, nothing the community did, that caused 98.5%
of those Negroes to be in the Negro schools and
100% of the whites to be in the white schools thir
teen years after B bown.
And so this year, particularly after the Interim
Order last year, we tried to dig a little deeper into
the situation that existed in Franklin County. We
were primarily concerned at the first hearing with
the lateral transfers, at the second hearing with
the intimidation problems. Here we have gone into
the school structure. We got an expert to look at
the schools, who went into the disparities, who went
into the arrangements of the schools. I would like
to just deal very quickly with what we found and
why we believe this contributed to this almost total
segregation that remains—not only contributed to
it, but in our judgment made it in large part almost
inevitable. And you start with where the schools
are and how they are arranged.
Now, the testimony in this case proves that ba
sically the schools were built about forty years ago,
—3 1 9 -
most of them, and each little community got a white
school and a Negro school, mostly one to twelve, and
there were one or two areas where there were only
white schools. One of those is where the Epsom
School is and one is where the Edward Best School
is. In every other area there are white schools and
Negro schools covering the same grades. And there
is not a single school in Franklin County that isn’t
within a mile or two of a -white school covering the
same grades—not a single one.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1492a
Now, this is almost exactly the same situation that
was commented upon by the three-judge court in Ala
bama in the case of Lee v. Macon County B oard oe
E ducation cited in our brief, 267 F. Supp. 458.
This is the state-wide Alabama desegregation case,
your Honor. And I will just read you one passage,
and that is the only passage I would like to read.
It says:
“Considerations of economy, convenience in ed
ucation have been subordinated to the policy of
racial separation. Survey approval of construction
sites reflect this policy. A striking instance of this
discriminatory conduct is found in the Clark County
survey conducted during the 1964-65 school year. At
the time of the survey there were 23 schools in the
system attended by approximately 5800 students,
2400 white, 3400 Negro. Consolidation was clearly
—320—
called for, yet the survey staff sought to perpetuate
the segregated system by recommending and ap
proving that in each of the three principal towns of
the county two separate schools be maintained as
permanent school installations, each covering grades
one through twelve. This recommendation in each
of these three towns in Clark County, Alabama, can
be explained only in racial terms.”
Your Honor, this is so close a parallel, that I was
startled when I read it, to the situation we have
been examining in Franklin County and to which
Mr. Stormer testified. He testified very similarly to
what is stated in that case.
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1493a
Now, let me say this: that certainly if there were
no Negroes in Franklin County, if there were no
history of segregation, you wouldn’t have the schools
covering the same grades arranged that way. It’s
just an impossibility.
Now, let’s take some of the disparities and some
of the problems occasioned by those. Mr. Stormer
testified—and Mr. Smith admitted today in sub
stance—that you have Epsom High School which is
filled 39% of capacity for the high school; you have
Riverside High School which is 126.7% of capacity,
I believe. They are thirteen miles apart. There are
plenty of Negro students who live in the Epsom
- 3 2 1 -
area, and they are bussed by a bus thirteen miles
from 39%-of-capacity Epsom to 127%-of-capacity
Riverside. You have exactly the same situation,
with the statistics a little different, from Youngs-
ville. Youngsville High School is all white. And
they are shipped 13 or 14 or 15 miles also to River
side. Edward Best is about 70% capacity; Perry’s
is about 126% capacity; and the students from the
area of Edward Best, everybody there, except Rev
erend Coppedge’s boy, is going to be bussed next
year, if the Court permits it to continue, for about
14 or 15 miles to the overcrowded Perry’s School.
The Court: What did you say the figure at
Perry’s is?
Mr. Schwelb: I think it’s 126.7, with Riverside
126.4.
Now, I don’t believe this Court nor anybody else
can believe that there were no Negroes, if there
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1494a
were no racial problems in Franklin County, chil
dren would be bussed about from empty schools to
overcrowded schools like that.
Now, you take the transportation system. They
have a transportation system which basically is run
by the school for the school, so that two schools
next to each other have a separate transportation
system. They make some exceptions to that, so
that Riverside High School and Louisburg Ele
mentary School, fourteen miles apart, are run on
—322—
the same transportation system. Riverside and
Cedar Street are run on the same transportation
system. Louisburg, which is a white school, is right
in the middle. That’s not honest.
Edward Best High School and Edward Best Ele
mentary School—a mile-and-a-half apart, different
grades—are both white, and they are run on the
same transportation system. Again, if race were not
a factor, it would be very difficult to understand why
they would do something like that.
Now, with respect to faculty desegregation I am
not going to cover it in great depth now, because
your Honor has heard a lot of testimony about it.
But I would like to say this about the legal elements
of it: that in Shelby County, Tennessee, we had a
very similar situation. There was a Consent Decree
which required approximately what the Interim
Order did. Shelby County, between the time of that
Consent Decree and the next half year, got about
one or two teachers to cross racial lines and some
part-time teachers, and that was it. And so when
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1495a
the Government brought motion for further relief,
we entitled it Civil Contempt Proceedings. The
order which the judge issued thereafter, in view of
what had happened when the more general order
didn’t result in much desegregation of faculty, was
a good deal tougher. It said that you have roughly
—323—
the same ratio of Negro to white teachers in each
school; that until the time that you get it, you have
to assign all new teachers who are Negroes to white
schools and new teachers who are white to Negro
schools, except when a showing can be made to the
court that it is impossible. That general proposition.
In the D owell case, which I think your Honor
will be familiar with, that the Tenth Circuit affirmed
recently and the Supreme Court denied certiorari,
that same type of arrangement, the same ratio of
teachers in the system as a whole and in each school,
was required as it was in the K ier case here in the
Fourth Circuit in Virginia. And the same thing was
suggested by the Eighth Circuit in the K elly against
A ltheimer case. That’s not reported, your Honor.
If you don’t have a copy, we will be happy to leave
you a copy of our slip of it.
The Court: Fourth Circuit?
Mr. Schwelb: Eighth Circuit. K elly against A l
theimer, Arkansas.
The Court: What was the date of that opinion?
Mr. Schwelb: It was approximately April of 1967,
your Honor.
The Court: No, I do not have a copy of it.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1496a
Mr. Schwelb: We will leave a copy with your
Honor.
- 3 2 4 -
Now, we submit without further elaboration that
the arrangement for the compliance, such as it was,
by the defendants with the Interim Order on faculty
justifies a much more stringent faculty order now.
We think that the Fourth Circuit in the recent
B owman case, which I am sure your Honor is fa
miliar with, indicated that a much more specific and
stringent order is required if a more general order
has been tried earlier and hasn’t worked. In the
B owman case the district court wasn’t given a chance
to make it work. But that’s different here.
Then you have the problem of intimidation on
freedom of choice. Now, I have had some by-play
back and forth with Mr. Tucker here about that as
we have been waiting for this case to complete. We
have been discussing what is “massive intimidation.”
The K ieb case, I think, in the district court in Vir
ginia said that if there is massive community hostil
ity, then you can’t have free choice. The Fourth
Circuit said recently if the choice isn’t free “in the
practical context of its exercise.” And there are
other cases cited in our brief.
Now, your Honor, I would like to say this: that
we have prepared as Schedule C or Appendix C to
our findings a list of all the significant intimidating
incidents that we have been able to unearth during
—325—
our investigation here. I believe there are about
seventy-five. One or two started back in ’63 or ’64,
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1497a
and they were very heavy in ’65, ’66, and ’67. Now,
in a situation—yon are at 1.5% now-—where homes
have been shot into and all these incidents have
happened, and there are that many incidents, and
they continue, I think it is really unreasonable to
say that the choice has been free.
Now, it’s true that some Negroes testified on be
half of the defendants in this case, and they said
they didn’t choose a school out of fear. And it’s
true were there no intimidation, many Negroes
might not have gone. But there are an awfully lot
of other Negroes with whom that intimidation must
have been a factor. And most of the Negroes who
testified—or many of them—even for the defendants,
indicated that they knew of these incidents, and they
acknowledged that they would be a deterrent to Ne
groes as a whole. And, of course, we’ve got testi
mony, despite the assertion in the defendants’ brief
to the contrary, of people who are afraid.
Now, the unusual feature of this case is—or per
haps it isn’t unusual—that if you do what is common
sense or what makes common sense from a non-racial
basis, you are going to solve the racial problem.
That is the one characteristic of this that stands
out in this case. Because you’ve got these two
schools, Bunn and Gethsemane for example, you’ve
—326—
got Perry’s and Gold Sand next to each other, both
having grades one through twelve. Now, let’s say
you make grades seven through nine Gethsemane,
grades nine through twelve Bunn—let’s say that as
an example. Now, Mr. Stormer testified at consider-
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1498a
able length to the various educational advantages
that arise out of that. You can get a diversified pro
gram at lower cost; the children can take more
courses. And that isn’t seriousl denied by what Mr.
Smith says. Even to the extent that you might have
less teachers, it would be because the State real
izes you need less if you have a larger school.
Now, if you do something like that, if you com
bine the grades in Bunn and G-ethsemane and these
other areas, you accomplish your pupil desegrega
tion, and you accomplish your teacher desegrega
tion at the same time, automatically. This whole
problem of getting people and this and the other
doesn’t even arise.
Now, supposing you talk in terms of disparities.
Now, you’ve got Epsom School which is, as we say,
39% of capacity; you’ve got Riverside which is
126%. Now, if you take the students who go to
Riverside who live in the Epsom area, the Negro
students, and put them in Epsom, you balance out
the disparity and you improve Epsom because it’s
way too small—it’s a high school with 72 students
which is about a third of the size of a small high
—3 2 7 -
school in the narrowest definition which Mr. Smith
had—and at the same time you are going to have
to take some teachers to follow those students even
to desegregate the faculty of Epsom at least par
tially, and you are going to alleviate your over
crowding at Riverside. If you do the same thing
with Youngsville and Riverside, you’ll desegregate
Youngsville, and you’ll alleviate the overcrowding at
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1499a
Riverside even more. And the same thing is true
between Edward Best and Gold Sand with Perry’s.
Now, if you consolidate the transportation on the
basis of the nearby school being consolidated with
the system of the other nearby school, if you con
solidate the system of Youngsville Elementary and
Youngsville High School, then you not only save a
lot of duplicating bus routes, but you desegregate
the buses. And the same is true is just about all
of these factors. Now you also, as I pointed out,
have a faculty desegregation. And this is even a
way to deal with the problem of intimidation if par
tial free choice is retained for a while. Because if
the Negro children who live around Epsom go to
Epsom School, and if the Negro children who live
around Youngsville go to Youngsville School, and
if the Negro children who live near Edward Best
School go to Edward Best School, then you don’t
have the problem that a Negro who chooses that
school is going to be the only one.
—328—
I think Reverend Coppedge testified and other
people have testified that people don’t want to go
where they are lonely, where they are alone, where
they don’t know how they will be treated. If there
is a large number of Negro pupils and a large
number of Negro teachers there, that problem is
alleviated if not eliminated. And, similarly, once a
good number of Negro pupils are there, then I
think those Negroes who are afraid in the com
munity or hesistant because of the intimidation in
the past will be much less afraid, because they won’t
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1500a
be the only ones, they won’t have to stick their
necks out at the front.
So you see, your Honor, it’s our contention here
that if you take the way this school system operates,
which in our judgment is entirely irrational, in
shipping children around to preserve almost a total
segregation in fact, you can not only make it a
better educational system and improve the educa
tional opportunity of every child in the system, but
you can eliminate this degree of segregation. And
we would like very much to ask the Court to con
sider the relief that we have asked for in those
terms. We don’t believe that there is a single item
of relief that we have asked for which isn’t both
educationally sound and sound to eliminate the dual
system. The dual system has plagued counties of
this kind for many, many years. Everything has to
be done twice. It’s expensive, it’s cumbersome, it’s
—329—
unwieldly, and it’s also unconstitutional. And I think
—we pointed this out in our brief—that one day the
not terribly constructive way of running schools—•
the two schools in each location and the shipping of
children over the roads to go to overcrowded schools
—is going to have to be eliminated; this system is
going to be changed some time. We think that with
Franklin County at one-tenth of the ratio of North
Carolina and one-half of the ratio of Mississippi
last year, this year would be an awfully good time
to start.
I thank the Court very much for its indulgence.
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1501a
1 will have to leave now. I appreciate very much
your listening to me.
The Court: I hope that you will make your con
nections.
Mr. Schwelb: I will make them, your Honor. I
have been briefer than I usually am for that purpose.
Mr. Kennedy will take charge.
The Court: I suppose you prefer now to alter
nate the speakers. The plaintiffs have some time
left. 'Would you rather finish up your thirty min-,
utes now or would you rather reserve your time
until after I have heard from the defendants?
Mr. Chambers: I would rather reserve the time,
your Honor.
—330—
I do have some exhibits which I would like to
introduce. Your Honor, we would like to have
marked as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 5 a memorandum
of Commissioner Howe, dated February 27, 1967.
With that we would like to introduce Exhibits No. 1,
2 and 5.
Mr. Davis: We would like our objection to be
entered on the record.
The Court: All right.
Mr. Chambers: It is my understanding, your
Honor, that the defendants are not challenging the
authenticity of the document but rather its compe
tency or materiality.
Mr. Davis: Eight. We agree that it represents
what it purports to he.
The Clerk: 1, 2, and 5? 3 and 4 were marked but
not introduced?
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1502a
Mr. Chambers: Correct.
The Court: You are not offering 3 and 4.
Mr. Chambers: That’s correct, your Honor.
We are submitting to the Court also Proposed
Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and Proposed
Decree.
The Court: Anything further now in the way of
exhibits or documents?
Mr. Chambers: No, sir.
—331—
The Court: Anything further from the defendants
with respect to exhibits?
Mr. Davis: No, sir.
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor please, on behalf
of the defendants I will speak for just a few minutes
something on the history and the facts in this case,
and Mr. Tucker, my associate, will speak on the law,
the decisions in the Fourth Circuit and elsewhere.
If your Honor please, at the outset of this argu
ment I would like to say this in all candor: The
Franklin County Board of Education, the defendants
in this action, are being sued. Many, many things
have been alleged, but I do not know of a single
innstance insofar as the operation of the free choice
is concerned that any allegation or any evidence has
been directed to the Franklin County Board of Edu
cation or any of its members. They attempt to bring
here people who say there have been acts of violence
againnst them, but no intimation even, sir, has been
made that the Franklin County Board of Education
or any member thereof or any employee or person
in concert with the Franklin County Board of Edu-
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1503a
cation had anything on earth to do with it. It’s a
case insofar as the so-called terrorism is concerned
in which they attempt to indict a whole people.
If your Honor please, we say this: If freedom of
- 3 3 2 -
choice hasn’t worked on account of certain alleged
acts of terrorism, they should seek the perpetrators
of that terrorism. I want to state here and now,
while Mr. Kennedy is here, that the Department of
Justice of the United States Government has polled
Franklin County in the last twelve months in an
effort to procure evidence and I presume to inves
tigate those alleged acts of intimidation or terror
ism, and they haven’t yet come up with any indict
ment or whatever. It’s in evidence here that the
State Bureau of Investigation and the Franklin
County Sheriff’s Department, both from Mr. Smith
and from other people, that everything has been
thoroughly investigated with diligence by the law’
enforcement officers and the FBI right from Mr.
Kennedy’s or the plaintiff-intervenor’s department
in Washington, considered the greatest law enforce
ment agency on the face of this earth, have not yet
been able to indict anybody. I do not know7 w7ho
perpetrated those acts; no member of the Board of
Education knows.
I don’t know what the remedy or the solution is
or what can the Board do. I wish someone would
tell us. They have done all on earth they could. By
the Interim Order last summer, if your Honor
pleases, they were directed to hold this meeting; it
was held. No criticism has been made by anyone of
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1504a
that meeting at which Mr. Schwelb, Mr. Chambers,
myself, and the Board of Education, and others were
- 3 3 3 -
present, to a panel of people pursuant to your
Honor’s requirement furnished and provided by the
counsel for the individual plaintiffs.
The Court: Now, Mr. Yarborough, I believe the
opinion of the Fourth Circuit in the B owman case,
B owman against The County School B oard oe
Charles City County, decided on June 12, 1967,
with which I feel sure you are familiar, states, and
I quote:
“Whether or not the choice is free may depend
upon circumstances extraneous to the formal plan
of the school board. If there is a contention that
economic or other pressures in the community in
hibit the free exercise of the choice, there must be
a judicial appraisal of it, for ‘freedom of choice’ is
acceptable only if the choice is free in the practical
context of its exercise. If there are extraneous pres
sures which deprive the choice of its freedom, the
school board may be required to adopt affirmative
measures to counter them.”
Now, you say and contend that these acts of vio
lence, intimidation, are not attributable to any mem
ber of the defendant School Board or any official or
agent, servant, or employee of that Board.
Now, I believe the Government attaches to its brief
as Appendix C a chronology of intimidations which
—334—
they contend date from 1963 to date, involving among
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1505a
other acts certain bombings, shooting into homes,
contamination of wells, and so forth.
Now, if there have been homes of Negro patrons
who have sent their children, or those to whom, they
stand in relation of parent, to white schools, if their
homes have been bombed—and there is evidence to
the effect that there have been such bombings—then
that creates an atmosphere in the community that
must be looked into. I would think that every sen
sible person fears violence. Now, bombings of
people’s homes where their families reside seem to
be calculated and intended to engender a measure
of fear in those people and in their friends and
neighbors and others in the community.
Now, if I recall correctly, there recently have been
news accounts of certain bombings in Anson County,
North Carolina, where, instead of Negro homes being-
bombed, the homes of the white members of the
School Board were bombed and other property be
longing to them. Now, according to news reports,
those bombings may have caused the resignation of
white members of the School Board in Anson County.
As I recall the news reports, they did report resig
nation of those members following the bombings of
their homes and their summer cottages or whatever
the property may have been.
—335-
Now, just one bomb directed at the home of a
Negro patron whose child attends a predominantly
white school could well prevent an uninhibited free
dom of choice in that community. And it’s the un~
hibited freedom of choice that distinguishes the
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1506a
constitutional freedom of choice from, the uncon
stitutional freedom of choice.
Now, it is in evidence that as a result of these
bombings, shootings, contamination of wells, that
although each of these incidents (some 53 in number
as I recall from the statement of Mr. Schwelb—I
have not counted them) has been investigated by
the North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation,
by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, it is my
understanding from what I have heard up to this
point that not a single arrest has been made and
consequently not a single person has been punished
for those acts of violence and intimidation.
Now, a primary purpose of government, all gov
ernment, is to maintain law and order; and a govern
ment that has the power to protect life, liberty—
which would include freedom of choice—and prop
erty from lawless conduct and fails to do so—I say
a government that has the power and fails to do so,
is not worthy of the name whether it be local, state,
or national.
Now, this conduct has gone on for years. Appar
ently it is not disputed that there have been bomb-
—336—
ings which occurred, shooting into the homes, con
tamination of the drinking water. Now, if those
things would have an effect on a reasonable mind
—and apparently they had effect on the minds of
the members of the School Board in Anson County
—and if they had similar effect on the minds of the
Negro patrons of the schools in Franklin County,
then there is an atmosphere of intimidation in that
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1507a
community that may inhibit freedom of choice; and
if it does, then freedom of choice is no longer a
constitutional method,
Mr. Yarborough: Yes, sir, if your Honor please,
we concur in every statement your Honor made. 1
might add that this Appendix C that Mr. Schwelb
filed here (I just saw it today. It was handed to me
yesterday afternoon) goes back to 1963. Now, if
your Honor pleases, our Board of Education last
summer met with your Honor in your chambers, and
the Interim Order was entered pursuant to several
days of discussion. We were told that there had to
be no more intimidation. The School Board did
everything in its power to see that there was none.
I want to say, if you look at Mr. Schwelb’s list, there
has been very little in the past twelve months. If
you use the entering of the Interim Order, there is
a change certainly in the direction or efforts of the
School Board. I don’t recall in the district, in the
Franklin County unit, as I remember it, but only
one instance or two instances that happened since
—337—
that time. He quotes on pages not numbered start
ing with 1967 something in February from Raleigh
newspapers about something that happened in Wake
County. He didn’t number the pages. It looks like
they go back to February 1967. Well, they go back
to July of 1966, or started when school opened, some
thing about—-starting in August—a shot was fired
into the home of Mrs. Perry who had no children
in school. Now, I do not know what that had to do
with the school integration. True, it says here, it
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1508a
happened daring the second choice period, and the
Franklin Times, they say here, associated the inci
dent with the desegregation suit. Now, I don’t recall
what they said. But I invite your Honor’s attention
to the fact that that Mrs. Perry’s daughter, Miss
Willie Perry, testified in behalf of the defendants in
the depositions. I can perhaps find them and tell
you. But she is identified, sir, as the daughter, and
she did not connect it, that they are unable to say,
about somebody passing on the road fired a shot and
it hit the house.
The Court: Now, Mr. Yarborough, let’s assume
that this particular incident on August 8th had abso
lutely no inception or origin in any school deseg
regation. But if it is true that the press that
circulates in that county attributed the shooting into
his home to the desegregation activity on the part
of this person, it might have had the effect on the
—338-
community as much so as if it had actually arisen
out of some integration movement.
Mr. Yarborough: If your Honor will permit me
to have my associate find that clipping. I do not
remember the incident at all. He states here that
the Franklin Times immediately associated the inci
dent with the desegregation suit. I do not recall
what they said. This is somebody’s opinion.
The Court: You can hand that to me. I don’t
want to take your time, because you don’t have much
time left.
Mr. Yarborough: Yes. I want my associate to
have some time on the law. But I say they take that.
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1509a
And then they had what happened in the Frinklin-
ton City Unit. Certainly that is the same as if it
had been in Vance County or Wake County or Nash
County or Halifax or Warren so far as the Franklin
County Board of Education is concerned. Your
Honor may not be familiar with the political sub
divisions of the County, but Franklinton is on the
west end of the County or up against the Granville
and Wake County lines. It’s an area there, one of
the ten townships, on one edge of the County. It’s
an entity somewhat unto itself. It has the mainline
railroad through it. It’s on United States Highway
No. 1. They look to Raleigh, Durham, and other
places. They seldom come to Louisburg for anything
—339—
except to serve on juries and pay their taxes. The
rest of the County should not be charged with what
happened in Franklinton any more than they should
be with what happened in Wake County or other
places, because the Franklin County Board of Edu
cation, having its own administrative unit, didn’t
feel called on to go over and tell them, they weren’t
invited to tell them how to run their schools, and
we of course didn’t volunteer it because we had our
hands full trying to operate our schools in con
formity with the Interim Order of the Court.
Then in September Branda Margaret Fogg. They
said that their home was shot in to in September.
I don’t recall the incident. I remember one of them
testified. Margaret Fogg, I believe, testified. I want
to invite your Honor’s attention here that in that
instance and one other it’s rather strange, I say,
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1510a
that they brought a child instead of the parents.
They brought this child and some other child to
testify what happened at her father’s home.
I want to say, if your Honor please, too, that in
all of these instances, we can thank the Lord for it,
not a scratch has been put on anybody. As I say,
your Honor, we can thank the Lord for it if such
incidents happened, they happened and were done
in such a way that through chance, fortuitous cir
cumstances, not a scratch has been put on anybody.
—340—
I want to invite your Honor’s attention that through
out all of these depositions, as I recall it, there
hasn’t been the weight of a person’s hand laid on
anybody about the integration of the schools. There
have been names called, there have been other things
done, but not a scratch has been placed on a person
nor the weight of anyone’s hand.
The Court: Well, it’s unfortunate that in other
occurrences the same cannot be said.
Mr. Yarborough: Yes, sir. But certainly in
Franklin County there has not been a single mark
put on anybody. In all of these little incidents they
have related in schools about name-calling or what
ever—and some of those witnesses said they were
called names back in their old schools—nobody has
been harmed or injured. I think it a very fortuitous
circumstance that they have not.
Then you go down to September 9th. There again
you get something from the News and Observer and
the Franklin Times about the Franklinton City Unit.
Then again in November about the Fraklinton City
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1511a
Unit. Then in November about the HEW against
the Franklinton Schools.
True, you have here in December, 1966, a Rev
erend Latham, or to be grammatically correct I
think it would be Reverend Mr. Latham or the
—341—
Reverend Mr. Latham, testified that he left. If you
will look at his deposition, he said that in July or
August, before he testified the first time, he had
already applied for a position in the Chaplain’s
Corps of the United States Army, and it took about
six months for it to go through. He had made up
his mind to leave long before they attempt to say
it was a result of pressure. I think you will find
that he said about six months before he had made
application. It took that long to be processed through
military channels. He decided then for whatever
reason, if your Honor pleases, lie could serve better
in the United States Army than handling thirty-
five or so Baptist churches in Franklin and Nash
Counties.
Now, I want to say in all respect to the churches,
I happen not to be of the Baptist persuasion, but
whether Mr. Latham or Mr. Wood continue at their
churches really is a matter between them and their
church membership. They testified that in congre
gational churches you serve at the will of the con
gregation or the board of deacons. For whatever
reason, I do not think that a congregation’s relation
with its pastor should be indicative of what happens
out in the community except insofar as the member
ship might be concerned, but I feel like a church
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1512a
has certainly got a right to discharge its pastor for
any reason or no reason. I ’m not a Baptist. I
—342—
happen to be in a church in which we have an epis
copal control overhead. Sometimes I wish it were
congregational. I just mention that in passing. But,
nevertheless, Mr. Latham did make up him mind to
leave long before December and before he testified
at these first hearings. I invite your Honor’s atten
tion to that.
Then they go on down and bring in this Wake
County incident, talking about the man’s well over
here in February of ’67. Certainly we had nothing
to do with that. They introduce in evidence only
newspaper clippings, and why they didn’t go further,
I do not know. The News and Observer itself made
a great issue out of it; they go up to a point and
then, as I recall the clippings, it developed there
was no oil in the well after all, and the man offered
to give back the money people had given him to
dig a new well. It didn’t require a new well. They
did not introduce those continuous clippings into
evidence. They went so far, as far as it suited them
to go, and they cut it off. I say that with all candor,
maybe they can explain why they didn’t introduce
the whole picture. They took half of it right at the
peak. But I do know—I don’t know whether your
Honor kept up with it or not-—the News and Ob
server made great play about it and finally it turned
out, as I recall it, that there was no oil in his well
and that Mr. High, who had collected or received
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1513a
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
- 3 4 3 -
donations of several hundred dollars, offered to
give the money back to anybody who wanted it. He
never did dig the new well, as I recall the News and
Observer. But that was not presented.
Then we go on down and we start, the freedom of
choice in 1967. The only thing that happened in the
Franklin County Administrative Unit that happened
since then was some harassing phone calls to the
Coppedge’s and an explosion that they term tire
bombing of them that the very neighbors did not
—some of them heard it, more like a shotgun. We
find that in these depositions. And that is all, as I
recall it, that happened during the choice period
up through the choice period of 1967.
If your Honor please, my time is running very
short. My associate here has just invited my atten
tion to it. But I would like to say this to your
Honor: Some reference was made about the Prayer
for Relief by the United States Government as in-
tervenor. From the day these papers were filed
until this good day our Board of Education has
been ready to adopt every single one. The objec
tives in this suit by the Government intervenor and
the Board of Education are exactly the same, if you
will read their prayer in their complaint and inter
vention—and the only other motion they have made
was to eliminate disparities—the Franklin County
Board of Education stood ready then and suggested
to some authority in Washington that we wmuld go
—344—
right down the line on their prayer for relief.
1514a
The Court: Well, now, if the defendant Board is
willing to enter into a consent decree furnishing the
relief prayed for, why hasn’t such a decree been
tendered to me a year ago, or last month, or today?
Mr. Yarborough: Well, they have never consented
to it. They took the position that they—I don’t know
what it took. They said, Well, do you want us to file
more pleadings? We said, Take what you have filed.
And we have tendered them sometime ago one for
their consent. And as I understand it, a consent re
quires both sides. But this is so far as the Govern-
ment-intervenor is concerned. If your Honor will
read the Prayer for Relief and, the only other paper
I recall, their Motion to Require Defendants to
Eliminate Educational Disparities, the defendant
has stood ready from the day it was filed until now
insofar as it is applicable. Now, something about
this “four transfer grades,” all of that is moot and
behind us, and about “immediate admittance.” Your
Honor has ruled on that. I say that with all candor
they always said, well, they would file other papers
and adopt other pleadings, but so far as I know
it has not been done.
Now, if your Honor please, I will finish up. I
want to save some time for Mr. Tucker. I invite
—345—
your Honor’s attention with all due respect to the
individual plaintiffs in this case. They started out
from their first pleadings seeking to destroy the
freedom of choice—their prayer contained in their
complaint file. They started in that, as I recall it,
if I can put my hand on it here, to get them in school
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1515a
immediately. Your Honor ruled on that. Their first
prayer was for enjoining plaintiffs (defendants?)
from refusing to admit, and so forth, on the basis
of color, and then they in the alternative pray the
Court “to enter a decree directing the defendant to
present a complete plan in the period of time which
will permit its implementation during the school
year 1965-66, reorganize the entire school system of
Franklin County into a unitary non-racial system,”
and so forth. They asked for it in December 1965,
and they have stayed with that objective since then.
They started out wanting to destroy the freedom of
choice plan, and that is what they are still asking
for.
The Court: Now, Mr. Yarborough, does the de
fendant Board contend now that the school patrons,
all of them, in the Franklin School Administrative
Unit have a free and uninhibited choice of schools,
and that there are no pressures in the community
that would tend to prevent a free and uninhibited
choice 1
Mr. Yarborough: Sir, the Franklin County Board
—346—
of Education does not contend that every one of
the 28,000 and some people, whatever number of
people there are. We say that the great, vast ma
jority of the people of every race, white, Negro, and
Indian, are completely in accord. I want to state
to your Honor in Judge Alexander Harvey’s pre
trial conference we told Judge Harvey when we
were discussing issue, said “Judge, how can we
meet it without bringing the great mass of the
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1516a
colored citizenship into court?” He said, “Get a
representative group from each of the areas of the
schools.”
You will find in our brief and in the depositions
that the Franklin County Board of Education
brought eight or ten or twelve people from three
of the school areas. The plaintiffs and plaintiff -
intervenor agreed, stipulated, that to save time,
many hours of time, that the Franklin County Board
of Education would produce a comparable number
from the other three school areas in the County who
would testify in substance to what was testified on
direct and cross examination. I do not know how
I could have advised my clients to have proven that
except by a representative group, and they have
not proven that they were not a representative
group, your Honor—college people, illiterates, peo
ple from all stages in life, landowners, tenants, some
on welfare, if your Honor pleases, who have testi
fied that they were not afraid. In response to “A
—347—
different individual,” some of them said they had
heard about it and thought that it might have in
fluenced somebody else, but it had not influenced
them.
Out of, I think, the testimony of 46 or whatever
students, colored students, Negro students, in pre
dominantly white schools for this past year, they
only brought three or four who testified. Some testi
mony was directly contradicted. One school girl
testified that she had heard several girls say that
they would transfer if there were more white
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1517a
(Negro?) teachers. Those girls came in and said
they never mentioned it to her. There is some'evi
dence in there one school teacher contradicted one
of the witnesses.
Now, if yonr Honor pleases, my time is almost
up, and I will say this: The Board of Education
is realistic; we don’t say that, one hundred per
cent, there’s not a single one. Some people have
testified up here; Mr. Coppedge and his wife testi
fied. But, if your Honor please, they have been
testifying from the first date. Their child for this
past school year was in exactly the school they
chose for him. They are the people—he sat in court
and he appeared in the depositions. He’s the man
who testified that somebody blasted his house. I in
vite your Honor’s attention to the discrepancy in
the testimony between Mrs. Coppedge and her son
Harold as to one said they found no marks, no
—3 4 8 -
sign of an explosion. If I ’m wrong, Mr. Davis,
correct me. The boy, that is, her son testified that
he went out and found a hole in the ground, that
it was an explosion. It’s in the deposition. I hap
pened to be out at the moment. But there is a direct
conflict in the testimony as to what did happen. The
two neighbors said it sounded like a shotgun and
not, as was described by Mr. Coppedge yesterday, a
fire bomb.
If your Honor pleases, there are a lot of contra
dictions in this testimony. We are not abusing or
criticizing anybody, the citizens of Franklin County,
but I will say this: I wish somebody would tell the
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1518a
Franklin County Board of Education what they can
do. I grant you that every word said in the Charles
City County case is the law in this circuit. We
agree that what the Circuit Court in Richmond has
said is the law in this circuit. We will abide by
what the law is. We have tried to do it. Your
Honor asked us last summer. The first question was:
Do you agree that the ruling in the Durham City
case, Weaver against Durham Board of Education,
is the law in this circuit? And we said, Yes, sir.
We have done all. And the Fourth Circuit says
that you’ve got to take some steps to overcome that
extraneous activity. If somebody would tell us
what the Board of Education can do.
Now, if your Honor pleases, this Country is torn
- 3 4 9 -
end to end by riots today. Now, if your Honor
pleases, whatever the cause or whatever the reason,
I say that Franklin County has desegregated its
schools to the extent that the colored citizens of the
County want to do it as indicated by one-hundred-
per-cent response to the freedom of choice forms.
Mr. Smith says that so far as he knows there was
not a form that was not returned by anybody who
will have children in school next year. The colored
citizens of Franklin County have integrated to the
extent that they want it integrated. Now, that has
occurred in Franklin Couny with a minimum of
violence.
If your Honor pleases, if you’ll stop to reflect a
moment that while true there has been, I think, one
explosion in the last twelve months, one house shot
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1519a
into. They did not bring the man who owned the
house, who lived in it, James Davis. There was no
connection with the Board of Education. They did
not bring James Davis • they brought hearsay. And
I know Mr. Davis—Wiley Davis, I beg your pardon
—know him well, intimately, and he did not come
up here and say it had anything to do with his
brother’s children going to school.
Now, if your Honor please, if you look on the
situation in Franklin County, what most of the
citizens, and I think nearly all of them, have done,
they have tried to make this thing work. If they
will show us today one person who didn’t get the
—350—
choice that they wanted, the Board of Education
will meet now—they are sitting here in this court
room—and assign that child and do all within its
power to protect it.
The Franklin County Board of Education, if your
Honor please, is courageous. They went to every
PTA in the County. I went to many of them with
them, practically all of them; encouraged those peo
ple to pick the school of his choice: “Name it and
you’ll get it.” Now, I do not know under freedom
of choice what else any public body can do repre
sentative of the citizenship of the County, the white
and the colored together.
There is so much more I would like to say, if
your Honor please. The record here is so big it
takes three men to move it, to bring our part of it
up here. Now, I can’t cover it in thirty or forty-five
minutes. I want Mr. Tucker to have some time.
But, if your Honor please—
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1520a
The Court: Then you had better give it to him,
because it’s about gone now.
Mr. Yarborough: Yes, sir. Of course, if your
Honor please, I hope you will bear with me. I know
I don’t have much time, but some of it was provoca
tive between the Court and myself.
The Court: Yes, I understand.
—351—
Mr. Yarborough: So with that I will sit down.
We ask your Honor again as I sit down, speaking
as a citizen of the County, representative of the
body, if your Honor, please, will remember that
the Franklin County Board of Education has never
defied the law; it has never done one single thing
in its life—true, in hindsight it may look as if it
could have done something different, it might have
done more about the teachers, but they in good
conscience did what they thought was what they
ought to do in the situation. They took it last year,
if your Honor please, and from year before last
to last year it went from 6 to 48 I believe it is;
went from zero in teachers to four in a period of a
month. This year there is a whole lot of controversy,
but it’s not over yet, and I dare say with those
vacancies and all there is going to be a substantial
increase. We are dealing with professional people
in the teachers, and some I’m sure have their own
ideas whether they want to teach in Franklin County
or somewhere else. But, if your Honor pleases, we
went from zero in teachers to four just in a short
while, and we went from six to I think—
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1521a
The Court: Well, you went from zero to four in
thirteen years.
Mr. Yarborough: Well, of course, we didn’t have
the Interim Order to guide us. And in the teacher
—352-
situation the courts have just in very recent years
started on it. Of course, I was speaking about
teachers.
The Court: Well, all right.
Mr. Yarborough: But I don’t think any court
held on it until right recently—two years ago. So
if you didn’t have all those years, in spite of what
our august court said “with all deliberate speed,”
I don’t know what they meant. I don’t think they
ever have yet said. If they hadn’t given that—I
think that caused a good part of this trouble.
With that, your Honor, I yield to Mr. Tucker
here, sir.
The Court: Well, I’m going to hear now from
the other side. Ten minutes.
Mr. Chambers: Your Honor, I will be brief.
We really submitted in our proposed findings,
which we have considered in conjunction with the
proposed findings of the Government, our conten
tions with reference to the issues involved here.
One thing we feel really stands out. And I think
the Court raised the primary issue in the question
to Mr. Yarborough. Mr. Yarborough has not an
swered yet whether the parents of the children in
Franklin County have an uninhibited free choice.
And in all candor I don’t think that Mr. Yarborough
or anyone else could reasonably say that the parents
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1522a
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
—353—
of children in Franklin County do have an uninhib
ited free choice.
In addition, we contend—and we understand this
to be the proposed findings of the Government—
that irrespective of whether we have today constant
bombings or constant threats by parties, the prac
tice of the Franklin County Board of Education in
the operation of the schools has been such that it
promotes the type of intimidation that we have
involved here, and also dictates the choice to the
parents and children in the school system. Why
else would they operate the separate buses for the
Negro and white schools!
And we can refer to them as predominantly Negro
if we want to, but everybody will admit that at
Biverside School we have Negro students and at
Louisburg we have white students. Every witness
produced by the Government, by the plaintiffs, and
by the defendants, has referred to the schools in
Franklin County as Negro and white schools. The
evidence here clearly establishes that the white
schools have had separate programs and the Negro
schools other programs. The Choir Festival, which
is a good example, has been a program that has
been conducted for the white schools in Franklin
County, and it still continues. The total operation
of the program dictates to the parents in Franklin
County: “ This is your school,” the school for Ne-
—354—
groes, and to the white parents, “This is the school
for the whites.” And what they see under freedom
1523a
of choice is, “If I want to go to a white school, then
I elect to go to Louisburg.” This is not the system,
we contend and respectfully submit, that the Court
in the Fourth Circuit and other courts have en
visaged under freedom of choice.
We respectfully submit that we will not have the
type of system that the Court envisaged in those
cases with what is presently being done in Franklin
County.
The matter of teachers: The Court entered an
order in 1966 directing that the School Board en
courage transfers. I want to call the Court’s atten
tion to some orders that the Court has considered
subsequent to W illaed and orders that have been
entered in the Eastern District, the Middle District,
the Western District, and in other states, requiring
that the School Board meet with the teachers,
encourage the teachers to transfer, et cetera. This
School Board did not do this. What it did was to
go to a meeting and say, We offer you freedom of
choice. The teachers that did come to deposition
testified that if they had been assigned, they would
teach in an integrated school.
With respect to the disparities we contend that
these, too, dictate to the students and parents in
the community that certain schools are maintained
for Negroes and certain schools are maintained for
whites.
—355—
The white students and white parents, understand
ably, in Franklin County would not elect to go to
the Riverside School, 26% now over capacity, as
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1524a
distinguished from Louisburg with the features that
they have at Louisburg School. If the schools were
equalized, if an opportunity were offered without
the intimidation, without the direction of programs
now conducted by the School Board, we might have
or should have a different choice of schools by the
parents of students in Franklin County.
We respectfully submit that in the context of the
case here we have a different situation from what
the Fourth Circuit considered in B owman, as the
Court has already pointed out.
We brought this case in 1965, seeking an order
enjoining further discrimination by the Board in
Franklin County. We agreed to an order in 1966
allowing an opportunity for the Board to operate
a freedom of choice plan. We respectfully submit
that this operation has shown the complete failure
of freedom of choice as the plan that would deseg
regate the system in Franklin County as required
by the Supreme Court. In this sense we submit that
the Court of the Fourth Circuit would now direct
that the Board take additional steps to desegregate
the system. Along that line we submit the Proposed
Decree which is attached to our Proposed Findings
of Fact and Conclusions of Law.
—356—
The Court: Do you desire to say anything, Mr.
Kennedy? You have about three minutes. Do you
desire to use it?
Mr. Kennedy: Just one brief reference, your
Honor, although I have just been the associate coun
sel in this case, a point for clarification:
Transcript of Trial— July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1525a
The Government has been willing- to consider any
terms of settlement. And as far as 1 know it was
only in point of time about two months ago that
the defendants first approached the Government on
terms of settlement. We did propose to them a de
cree and they proposed a counter-decree, and we had
meetings in Washington and came to no satisfactory
settlement.
That’s all I have, your Honor.
The Court: All right, Mr. Tucker. Ten minutes.
Mr. Tucker: Thank you, your Honor. I shall try
to be just as brief as I can.
Your Honor, to me the most important issue in
this hearing is whether your Honor will allow free
dom of choice to continue in the Franklin Schools.
I certainly hope that your Honor will, because free
dom of choice to me is the greatest choice. I think
it is the best choice for Franklin and for any other
school system, particularly in the South.
—357—
Mr. Sehwelb mentioned the recent case of K elly
v. A ltheimer and said he would give your Honor
a copy of it. It came out April 12, 1967. We also
mention that in our brief. He didn’t mention it in
his brief, and he didn’t mention it in his argument
because it’s dead against him on the effect of dis
parities and school constructions as far as the exist
ence of freedom of choice is concerned. In that case
there were only two schools, and the disparity was
much worse than has been shown, if there has been
any disparity shown here. And on top of that the
school district had gone into a bit of construction
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1526a
program “with malice aforethought practically,” the
Court found, with the idea of fixing it so that free
dom of choice couldn’t possibly work; and yet the
Court said that that was not enough to strike down
freedom of choice. That’s the latest from the Eighth
Circuit.
The reason I use the Eighth Circuit on that point
is because that is the only circuit that has gone all
the way from discussing the matter to really doing
something about it. And the only thing that they
did do about it was to attack the problem on its face,
condemn the disparities, and order them to do some
thing about it, giving them a reasonable time to do
something about it, and make reports back to the
Court. And I say that that is what this Court, we
hope, will do. That is the only case that I know of
—358—
where it has been followed all the way through. And
they said it was not any reason to do away with
freedom of choice.
I say the same thing as for as the buses are con
cerned when it has been found practical everywhere
for the buses to go to the schools. He mentions the
buses in this case, because they found that they
should use a “unitary,” they call it, bus system. But
if so, they attack that which is a fringe matter which
can be attacked separately by the court. If the
Court should want to change the bus system, there’s
no need to change the freedom of choice system just
to change the bus system. It hasn’t been done that I
know of by any Court, and it’s not right for them
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1527a
to ask the Court to do it. I hope the Court will not
do it for any such reason as that.
As far as teachers are concerned, the Fourth Cir
cuit is the Court on that, and not this case that I
am talking about. I say the only reason I use it on
that is because it is the only one that has carried
it all the way through. The Fourth Circuit has
spoken on teachers. If the Court finds that the
teachers are not being assigned as they should be
according- to the Fourth Circuit’s law which I have
cited in our brief, then I’m sure the Court can deal
with that with a more specific order. And I’m sure
that you as a judge—I know you well enough to
know—are certainly capable of it and will deal with
—359—
it. It has nothing to do with striking down the free
dom of choice for all the students in the schools
regardless of race, for all will not benefit.
Now we come to the exception which the Fourth
Circuit has said is the only reason, as I understand
the law, your Honor, for which in this circuit we
recognize striking down freedom of choice, and that
is whether extraneous influences are such that would
cause the Court to take this drastic action—and that
is the intimidation angle.
Now, your Honor mentioned Anson County, which
I presume you read about in the paper. And I got
mine out of the paper. My information of Anson
County out of the paper is that what happened there
is that Anson County tried to do on a modified scale
just what they are saying is the answer to freedom
of choice which didn’t produce what they think is
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1528a
enough students in that they just took two grades,
ordered two grades to be transfered over from one
school to another with its teachers and so forth.
And that’s what happened, your Honor—and they
brought this in their brief—in Franklinton. And
they said it caused a disturbance in Franklinton,
which, your Honor, is not anything at all to do with
Franklin County. It’s a completely separate unit.
But they brought it in. They said there was a dis-
—360—
turbance in Franklinton because they decided to do
something and people didn’t like it and there was a
disturbance about it, and they held that against
Franklin County. Well, what they decided to do or
were about to decide to do was to change one grade—
lock, stock, and barrel—and its teachers whether
they wanted to go or not—a violation of freedom
of choice, your Honor, the very thing they say is the
remedy for this thing. And I say it’s something that
should not be done except as a tremendously last
resort. And I don’t know of any Court that has yet
done it.
The Court: Do you know of any problem that
violence will solve?
Mr. Tucker: No, sir. And it didn’t solve it in
Anson either. As I understand it there was one or
maybe two that resigned over there, but the rest of
them stuck on the Board. And it certainly hasn’t
solved it in Franklin County; it has made it worse.
It has made it worse for the Board; it has made it
worse for the Negro students; it has made it worse
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1529a
for the white students. And I hope the Court won’t
make it still worse, because I ’m afraid that—
The Court: Well, there’s one thing about it: If
the people, themselves, will not let any system work
and their solution is going to be violence, whichever
- 3 6 1 -
system is adopted, then it is going to be necessary
for the courts and the executives to enforce law and
order if we have to call all of the Marines and Army
and Navy from Vietnam to come over here and give
us a little peace and democracy at home.
Mr. Tucker: I ’m in favor of all the army neces
sary for peace and quiet there, if that is what is
necessary.
The Court: It looks like we’ve got a job to do
right here.
Mr. Tucker: But I frankly do not believe that
all of the violence that you have heard about, and
so forth, was connected with race. I frankly do not
believe the intimidation is widespread enough. And
the only person that has attempted to define what
wmuld be necessary is our friend Judge Michie whose
court I had the honor of being in when he tried his
first jury case. When he attempted to define it, he
said it should be “overwhelming and widespread.”
Mr. Schwelb said we have been joking about it. The
only reason we joked about it is because he is afraid
of those words for some reason; he tried to say
“massive.” I don’t know why. But Judge Michie
says “ overwhelming and widespread.”
And forty-six chose to transfer from the Negro
schools to the white schools after almost all of the
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1530a
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
- 3 6 2 -
real acts of violence had been committed that have
been testified about that can be linked up with the
schools.
The Court: Well, would you say, assuming for
the purpose of this question that there have been
acts of violence, and apparently that fact is not
disputed, that the fact that forty-six children ap
plied to the white schools in spite of these things
is an indication of courage on their part!
Mr. Tucker: An indication of a lack of unneces
sary timidity.
The Court: A lack of what!
Mr. Tucker: A lack of too much timidity. I mean
a lack of timidity on their part which the others, if
you say had, they had too much timidity. I say you
can be too timid if you want to be. Not a thing
happened to a single one of these. All but one has
transferred again unless they graduated. I think
the fear has to be reasonable. And I don’t think
their fear has any basis of reason to it as far as
preventing them from going to the schools. Forty-
six went in, and nothing happened to them.
The Court: Forty-six out of how many!
Mr. Tucker: Forty-six out of I don’t know—two
thousand or something like that. But we are talking
about fear. The Fourth Circuit I think has said it
didn’t make any difference how many if they were
given a free choice.
—363—
The Court: Well, the Fourth Circuit talks about
“economic reprisals.” I seem to recollect in one of
1531a
the depositions by some woman that she and a friend
of hers used to work in the tobacco season, a sea
sonal job, for some six weeks a year and had been
working there together for years. One of those
women applied for her child to go to a white school,
and the other continued to send her children to a
Negro school. The woman who had enrolled her
children in a white school lost her job, and the other-
woman retained hers. Now, whether or not that
indicates any sort of economic pressure in the com
munity, the fact remains that is a part of the evi
dence in this record.
Mr. Tucker: Well, people lose their jobs. I know
the plaintiff-intervenor cited in his brief that the
superintendent of the schools in Franklinton lost
his job on account of racial integration. I happen
to know personally that that is not so. He didn’t
apply again. He got himself another good job over
here in the mountains, a better job. And so that
can be about as farfetched as anything I know of.
Now, I don’t know how to put my finger on it.
It is our position that there is not any widespread
intimidation such as would penalize the whole school
system, including everybody. I frankly don’t think
it is any benefit to a Negro student, either, to be
—364—
thrown over where he doesn’t want to be. I think
if he wants to go to an all-Negro school and one is
available, he should be allowed to go there.
The Court: Do you know of any other county or
school system in the State of North Carolina that
has had as much publicity in the newspaper head-
Transcript- of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1532a
lines with respect to acts of so-called intimidation
as has the Franklin County system in the past two
years?
Mr. Tucker: No, sir. But I hate to be condemned
by newspapers on the amount of publicity they see
fit to render, because they are motivated by all kinds
of motivation, including selling papers. I can’t agree
that publicity in the newspaper should condemn
these people over here. I think they should be con
demned in court, if that is necessary.
The Court: Well, I mentioned that with refer
ence to the atmosphere that the newspapers seem
to indicate prevails as a result of these various
acts that have been referred to.
Mr. Tucker: Well, I often wish that a lot of
things were not published at all in the newspaper,
but they’ve got a right to publish it, and I don’t
know how to keep them from it. It may be that
some of these riots would be a little bit better off
if they didn’t get so much publicity as they get.
—365—
Frankly, I think I had something to do with the
Health, Education and Welfare coming out with this
—what Mr. Chambers put in, since I was one of a
lot of attorneys who argued to the Health, Educa
tion and Welfare that they were preventing freedom
of choice in the schools by their lunch program in
the schools. And we raised such a din about it up
in Washington, myself and other attorneys who
represented schools, that this change is a result.
All during the last year, actually the Negroes
were in effect being deprived to stay in the schools;
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1533a
because if they got out and they were in the area
of economic life which allowed them to have a free
lunch, then they would have lost their free lunch.
You can see what they would amount to. Some of
them have four or five in the family, and you take
that four or five and multiply that by 25c a day,
you run into some real money over a month’s time
for people with low income. And that obtained all
during this last year. And I think if we are going
to theorize on what might have intimidated a com
munity or what might have influenced a community,
I think that could have as much to do with it as
any one thing; if you are talking about economics
now, that’s a powerful one. It would even have some
influence on me if I happened to have a child where
he could get a free lunch.
Your Honor, I ’m asking you to attack these prob-
—366—
lems—like teachers, transportation, and disparities
—as I know your Honor can do, on their face. And
if you feel that the freedom of choice needs tighten
ing up, tighten up on it in some way. But just be
cause we’ve got a few hotheads—and I’ll bet you
any amount that there are just a few that have
caused all of the trouble—don’t let’s punish a whole
county for it and deprive them of their freedom of
choice, which I think is the best system yet devised
for a gradual integration of the schools.
The Court: Well, you put your finger on one of
the great sadnesses of our society, and that is that
the sins of the few often work to the detriment of
the many. That is one of the unfortunate things.
Transcript of Trial,—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
1534a
If the few could be found and dealt with separately,
it would be in the long run much fairer to the whole.
(Whereupon, the hearing was adjourned at 6:15
P. M. on Wednesday, July 26, 1967.)
Transcript of Trial—July 25-26, 1967
Argument of Counsel
Coubt R epoeteb’s Cebtieicate
This is to certify that the transcript in the foregoing
two volumes was made under my supervision from steno-
type notes taken by me at the trial of said cause, and is
an accurate transcript of the proceedings to the best of
my knowledge and belief.
Witness my hand this 6th day of September, 1967.
/ s / W ilda Y. Hatjeb
Wilda Y. Hauer
Official C ourt R ep o r te r
MEILEN PRESS INC, — N. Y. C.<sjgi^*219