Draft Defendant-Intervenor's Memorandum in Opposition to Plaintiffs' Motion for Summary Judgment
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March 3, 1998

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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Eaton v. James Walker Memorial Hospital Board of Managers Deposition of Doctors - Volume II, 1965. e55a407a-b09a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/89209a5c-de91-4f0a-9698-6fa1058d6ebe/eaton-v-james-walker-memorial-hospital-board-of-managers-deposition-of-doctors-volume-ii. Accessed June 17, 2025.
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J f * IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA WILMINGTON DIVISION Civil Action No. 932 HUBERT A. EATON, et al, Plaintiffs, v. THE BOARD OF MANAGERS OF JAMES WALKER MEMORIAL HOSPITAL, a Body Corporate, et al, Defendants. DEPOSITIONS OF DOCTORS: Singletary VanVelsor Warshauer Wells Williams Johnson Mr. Martin Doctor Weinel andTidier VOLUME II of two volumes A A ’ "u 11 u ft' Cj4 c l * > Wiida y. Jdauer 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 13 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I N D E X WITNESSES: Direct Cross Redirect Recross Dr. Henry P. Singletary 170 182 156 199 Dr. Harry Van Velsor 201 207 208 Dr. Samuel E. Warshauer 209 223 223 mm mm mm Dr. Edwin J. Wells 227 239 241 — Dr. R. Bertram Williams Jr. 248 264 — Dr. Robert W. Williams 265 280 281 — Dr. Hooper D. Johnson 285 — Mr. Robert R. Martin 303 — Dr. William H. Weinel Jr . 315 326 327 Dr. James Tidier 330 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 p R . H E N R Y P. S I N G L E T A R Y , having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT-EXAMINATION BY MR. MELESNER: Q Will you state your full name and medical specialty. A Henry Pate Singletary, pathologist. Q Are you on the staff at James Walker Hospital? A I am. Q How long have you been on the staff? A Five and a half years. Q Are you on the staff at Community Hospital? A I am. Q How long have you been on the staff? A Six months. Q Are you the chief pathologist at both of these hospitals? A Yes. Q Who was the chief pathologist prior to you? A Dr. George Lumb, Q When did he cease as chief pathologist at these hospitals? A December 30, 1964, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q Did he leave the community at that time? A Yes. Q Where has he gone? A He obtained a position with Warner-Lambert Laboratories. He is now in Morris Plains, New Jersey, and will go shortly to Toronto where he will be the vice-president in charge of a phase of research. Q Did you work with him when he was chief pathologist? A I did. Q Were you his assistant in any sense? A I was his associate, assistant, yes. Q Are you also the secretary of the medical staff at James Walker? A Yes, I am. Q What are your duties as secretary? A I manage to write down the notes of the meetings when they occur, both the executive meetings and the general staff medical meetings, and also to write correspondence as directed by the membership. Q Do these notes become the minutes of the meetings? A Q A TOiey do. When are these meetings held? The general staff meeting has four assemblies 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 a year, and they would be in January, March, and bo forth - quarterly. The executive staff meets once a month. Q Was a meeting held In December of 1964? A I believe it was. I don't have the notebook. Q Let me call your attention to Dr. Eaton's application for staff membership at the hospital. Was Dr. Eaton's application presented to the staff meeting in December? A I don't have the notebook, but that sounds about right. Q Was his application discussed at that time? A Yes. Just a moment. I do have seme notes, but I was not instructed to bring my record notebooks and so I didn't. Yes, apparently it was discussed at about that time. Q The ballot was not, however, taken at the meeting? A No, Ihe ballots are by convention sent out by mail to the individuals and then returned after they are checked. Unreturned ballots count as a positive vote. Q Was there 3ome discussion at this time of the legal action which Dr. Eaton might take if he were denied staff membership? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 A Yes. Q Was there a discussion of the order of the United States Court of approximately August 1964 concerning Dr. Eaton’s application? A There were many discussions concerning his case and related cases, both inside the meeting itself and outside the meeting. Q In the hallway? A That * s right. q Are the minutes of that meeting transcribed? A Yes. Q Do the minutes reflect the nature of these discussions? A Well, really, I wish if you were going to questio me about the minutes that you had aslced me to bring the minutes with me. Now, I'm sure if all of this was dis cussed, a notation is made, but I don't remember everything I wrote down. I have done a lot of other things too. Q To the best of your recollection did you at that time set forth in the minutes the nature of the discussion? A No, I doubt if I did. I think that I Just stated that his name came up and a short discussion was held 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 13 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Did you discuss Dr. Eaton's application with other members of the staff? A Not during the meeting, no. Q In the hallway? A Well, I was part of the discussions; I didn't lead them. Q Could you give us the names of some of the physicians with whom you discussed the matter? A I really don't remember, Q Are you aware that the credentials committee of the hospital acted favorably on Dr. Eaton's application? A Yes. Oftey initially decided to await the outcome of the legal action that Dr. Eaton was involved with; and then when the legal action was stopped, apparently — I don't believe he was acquitted; the Jury was Just dismissed for lack of insufficient "To CLsf^l_fp ifiL •evidence* At that time then the credentials committee ruled that he was eligible for vote. Q I believe you said for lack of "Insufficient" evidence. Don't you mean for lack of sufficient evidence? A All right, you can take it either side and say it either way you want. Q You don't regard what the Judge did at that time as an acquittal? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 li 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 A No, I don't. Q Were you involved in that lawsuit? A Indirectly. Q How were you involved? A I assisted in an autopsy done by Dr. George Lumb on a woman supposedly who had an abortion. Q And that constituted the evidence against Dr. Eaton? A As far as the lawsuit was concerned, yes. Q Did you vote on Dr. Eaton's application in December and again in February? A Yes. Well, my vote was counted one way or the other each time. Q Were you prepared to testify in court against Dr. Eaton? A I would prefer not to. q Were you prepared to testify against Dr. Eaton at this criminal trial? A I was not prepared to testify against anyone, but purely what I found during the autopsy. Q And this evidence would have been for the prosecution, would it not ? A This evidence would have been supporting the fact that the woman in my opinion was aborted. It was at least a problem of whether the woman was aborted and who 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 81 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and that's where the case fell down. Q Are you aware that two noted pathologists from out of the city had come to Wilmington in order to testify for Dr. Eaton? A I was aware of that. There were also other pathologists who supported our own testimony or opinions whose reputation I feel is much greater and whose ability is more recognized. q Well, the Judge chose not to even hear those pathologists brought by Dr. Eaton; isn't that correct? A That is true. Q You don't regard this as exoneration? A No. I regard this, and actually the Judge also made a statement at the time-- Q Let's not have both. MR. HOGUE: Just a moment. You are asking him about this, and I think the record should be full on this. You had Dr. Eaton testify yesterday to what not only was said but what was going to be said. Now, there is a time to object. And you have asked the question, and the witness wants to answer it, and I think he should be allowed to answer it. MR, MELESNERt Let the record reflect, Mr. Hogue, that I don't in any way indicate that 1 2 3 4 3 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you cannot ask him that question. I merely did not ask him that question and I don't wish him to answer it at this time. MR. HOOUEs Well, of course, you refused to let him explain his answer. MR. MELESNER: I will rely on the transcript of that proceeding for any statement made by the judge. (To the witness) Of course, Mr. Hogue can ask you what your recollection is. THE WITNESS: Do you have the transcript of the judge's terminal statement? MR. MELESNER: I'm asking the questions. Doctor, thank you. TOE WITNESS: All right. BY MR. MELESNER: Q How did you vote on this December ballot? A It was really a secret ballot and I think it should remain so. Q How did you vote on the February ballot? A In the first ballot, the one in which it was not certain whether we should have a secret ballot or not, I tore the ballot upj and, therefore, that would have counted as an affirmative vote for Dr. Eaton. The second ballot was a secret ballot. Q Are you telling me that the first ballot was not 1 2 3 4 3 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a secret ballot? A All the ballots by convention have always been secret; however, during the first ballot it was decided by the president of the staff, due to the implications of this particular case, that people should sign their names and, therefore, it was a departure from convention but the constitution and by-laws had nothing to say about this even though it was a convention that this was a requirement. Subsequently an additional by-law was made saying that all ballots should be secret, Q Would you, then, have a list of how many people voted on the first ballot? A No, I don't have a list, Q Who counted the first ballot? A I did. Q Did you note how many people had voted? A I counted the affirmative votes and the negative votes. q No. Do you know how each member of the staff had cast his ballot? A Many people didn't sign their names. Q When you voted in February, how did you vote? A Was this the first or the second? Q The first was in December, I believe. 1 2 3 4 3 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Okay. The second was a secret ballot according to the regulations and by-laws of the hospital. Q I'm asking you now, directly, how you voted on the second ballot. A Do we have a Judge here? ME. HOGUE< His answer is that he voted by secret ballot. I thought it was very clear. BY MR. MELESNERs Q Do you refuse to answer that question? MR. HOGUEt He has answered he voted by secret ballot. BY MR. MELESNER: Q Do you refuse to tell me how you voted? A It was a secret ballot. I'm not saying I voted negatively or positively. Q In a secret ballot procedure, Doctor, isn't it possible, then, that a physican could vote for or against a man for any reason? A I would presume that if he voted, he voted for a reason. Q Well, if he doesn't have to tell the way he voted, he certainly doesn't have to tell the reason why he votedj isn't that correct? A That is correct. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q And so the physicians on the staff at James Walker need not give a reason why th^ vote for or against a man? A That's true. Q They could vote against a man, then, because they didn't like him? A That's true. Q Or they could vote against a man because of the color of his skin? A It all amounts to the same thing; they could vote against him for many reasons, and you could Just list any number of them you would like. Q Just the way you can vote against a man or for a man in a fraternity election, is that correct? A •mat's right; or a national election. Q Have you ever watched Dr. Eaton perform surgery? A I have not. q Have you ever conducted a general investigation of his medical competence and character? A No. Q I'm going to ask you again for the record, Doctor: when you voted In February, did you cast an affirmative or negative vote on Dr. Eaton's application? A According to the males and regulations of the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 hospital it was a secret ballot; I choose to honor those until such time as they might be changed. Q Isn't it also your understanding, according to the by-laws of the hospital, that before a second ballot can be taken two or three months after a first ballot on a man's application, that the general staff has to vote to permit that second ballot? A To my knowledge this is the first time anyone has ever had two ballots taken, at least so close together. No, the general staff had nothing to do with the second ballot being asked for; the Board of Managers of the hospital requested it. q Was the general staff unhappy about the second ballot'’ A Yes, they were unhappy in general. Q Do you think that might account in part for the different result between the first and second ballot? A Hiat's true. But both of them — well, you have the percentages. Q Is it your understanding, Doctor, that the Board of Managers exercises some independent Judgment on an application? A That's true, they cam accept or reject the recommendations of the medical staff; however, this would be very unusual that they would do it. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q Have they ever done so to your knowledge? A Ihis Board of Managers to ray knowledge has never done so. Q But it Is your opinion that they would have the power to do so? A It Is understood that they do have the power to do that. Q But as a matter of practice they always follow the recommendation of the staff? A They are not doctors and are not able to Judge professional capacity; therefore, they choose not to take that as their responsibility, though on paper they can do it. Q But we are not certain, are we, that the doctors are judging professional capacity either; we are not certain of that, are we? A Well, I imagine some doctors feel in their minds that they are certain; others perhaps not. Q Tie procedure permits that, doesn’t it? A That's right. MR. MELESNER: Your witness. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HOGUE: Q Doctor, Mr. Melesner asked you several questions 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 about a trial or some sort of action which I assume you were related to. Was this in the Superior Court of New Hanover County? A Yes. Q And at this time Dr. Eaton, I believe was the defendant in that action? A Yes, sir. Q And the State of North Carolina was the plaintiff? A Yes, sir. Q Were you present at that trial most of the time ? A Most of the time I was in the courtroom. Q Now, with respect to the charge, do you know what it was? A Yes. Q What was the charge against Dr. Eaton? A Criminal abortion leading to death; and he was being tried for murder. Q For murder? A Yes. Q Now, did Dr. Eaton testify in that trial? A No. q Do you recall in that trial where the body of the deceased was found? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 13 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Yes. Q Where was It found? A In Dr. Eaton's office. Q In Dr. Eaton'8 office? A That is my understanding. Q Do you recall who went and found the body there? A An undertaker was called, I don't know who; but apparently the coroner was not called. Q You say the coroner was not called? A That is my understanding. Q There was no evidence there that the coroner was called; is that correct? A There was no evidence. Q Was the undertaker French I. Davis; is that correct? A It very well might be. I imagine you could rely on the records of the court. Q Do you recall what time of day or night that the body was found? A No. Q You don't? A It was during the daylight hours, I believe, but other than that I do not know. Q Was there any evidence that this .deceased had 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 13 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 been a patient of Dr. Eaton? A I don't believe that she was a patient of Dr. Eaton so far as we knew. Q Were any of Dr. Eaton's medical records on this patient available in court? A They were not available in court. Q You never saw the medical records of Dr. Eaton on this patient? A Yes, I saw some medical records on this patient• Q What was that - a death certificate? A No. That was — shall I tell you, or do you want to ask me? Q Yes, sir, tell me. A There was a permit form written out stating that this woman - she signed her name - knew that she was in a state of abortion; and it was in the possession of Mr. Burney, Dr. Eaton's lawyer, and he showed this to Dr, Lumb and to me. He swore Dr. Lumb to secrecy; he didn't say anything about it to me. This apparently was written prior to the time she was to be admitted to a hospital. Q Was she admitted to the hospital? A Apparently the intent, as we understood it, was for her to be admitted to the hospital, but she was not 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 admitted Q At that trial did a Philip William Gilroy testify? Do you know of any Philip William Gilroy? A The name is awfully familiar. Who was hej could you identify his position? Q I can't identify him, no. How about a Mrs. Viola H. Smith? A I don't think so. Really, the trial almost entirely consisted of medical evidence that the woman, in the opinion of those experts who testified, had been aborted, and that the abortion led to her death. Q Did you examine the death certificate on this woman? A I saw it or heard of itj it was that the woman died of anaphylactic shock to penicillin. Q Was this deceased woman's name Alma Jenlta Fredrick? A That sounds right. I'm vague on these answers, because I was assisting another pathologist on this and did not testify myself, but I think I have the facts pretty well straight. Q Now, I believe you stated or started to state that at the close of the evidence the judge made some comment or statement. Do you recall what that was? A In general context, yes. He stated that 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there was insufficient evidence for the case to continue, and that he moved — he desired -- he wished that the case be dismissed. He said, however, that this should not alter the opinions of any persons in the courtroom; and from the statement such as this, I, of course, would conclude that it was not an acquittal but rather was a dismissal because of insufficient evidence presented at court to link Dr, Eaton to the case. Q Now, Doctor, as secretary of the medical staff, how long have you been secretary; did you state? A About a year and a half except for a period of about two months in about May and June, Q As secretary of the medical staff, have you observed the handling of applications to the courtesy staff from time to time? A Yes, q And the procedure used in handling them? A I have. Q Would you state whether or not the procedure used with respect to Dr. Eaton's application was the same as that which has been used with respect to application of other white and Negro doctors? A Yes; it was the same the first time it came through except for its being delayed. The second time it differed somewhat in that the executive committee by 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 request of the Board of Managers had the votes go out. Usually It’s not the executive committee that handles It. Q Now, Isn't it true under your by-laws, though, that the Board of Managers has the right to accept a recommendation, reject a recommendation, or refer It back for further consideration? A Yes; they cam reject or accept, and presumably can send It back. Q And In this case they referred it back for a second consideration; isn't that true, sir? A That is true. Q Now at either time Dr. Eaton's application was being considered, did any member of the Board of Managers or the director of the hospital attempt to influence your vote in the matter one way or the other? A No, not really. No. Q Do you know of any influence they tried to put on any other person? . Lotts A No. Obey wanted a revote jtiihr the people — presumably they wanted the people to be mindful of the fact this would probably come up for this type of trial or hearing, and to be sure of how they wanted to vote. Q I believe Dr. William Wheeler and Dr, Daniel 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roane, two Negro doctors, are presently on the staff] is that correct? A TBiat is true; and a third one, Dr, Gray, now deceased, was also admitted, Q And their applications were handled under these same procedures? A Ihree doctors, three colored doctors. Yes, sir, MR, HOGUE: I have no further questions, REDIRECT-EXAMINATION BY MR. MEISSNER: Q Now, Doctor, let me Just clarify something. You tore up your application in December, is that not correct, so you cast a ballot in favor of Dr. Eaton being placed on the staff? A What I did was mark it against Dr, Eaton, and then I looked at it and I tore it up and threw it away; so it counted for him. Q So it counted for him? A Right. Q Do you know of any attempt that has been made to re-try Dr. Eaton for this criminal charge? A No, I don't believe he could be re-tried for 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the same thing, Q Now, Mr, Hogue has asked you some questions about whether or not anyone on the board tried to in fluence your decision. Did you do anything to try to influence the decision of the people on the board? A No, My conversations with the board were fairly limited, Q Do you know that Dr, Eaton had the Medical Examiner for the State of Virginia here? A Yes, I know. Dr, Mann. Dr. Mann is not a pathologist; he is a physician and a lawyer. Q Dr, Mann - was he awaiting to testify for Dr, Eaton? A No, Dr. Mann was not here awaiting to testifyj an assistant was. Q Do you know that gentleman's name? A No, Q Are you certain that Dr. Mann wasn't here? A He wa3 not in the courtroom. Q Do you know that he was not in Wilmington, North Carolina, on that day? A No, I don't know. Q So he may have been? A Of course, he may have been in town; he wasn't where the case was being tried in the courthouse. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Of course, his evidence wasn’t necessary, was It? A His evidence — it would have been very interesting to hear his evidence. Q And you are certain that Dr. Mann is not a pathologist? A This is what I have been told. Q You might be in error, though, on this? A It's possible, but I don’t believe I am in error; I don't believe he is a certified pathologist. My understanding is that his training is primarily legal, and that he is also an M.D.; but I understand that he has not had specialized training. Q On what is your understanding based? A On what people have told me. Q What people? A Dr. Helpern, the Chief Medical Examiner for the State of New York, who is an outstanding authority on « £sp* <*..//> t!^ A rc/v sit— ' l ̂ /a'"' medical-legal matters, for instar.og^ pathology, in this *<-*< country, who also testified at the case. Q He testified for the prosecution? A Yes. Q Do you know that Dr. Eaton also had waiting to testify the Chief of the Basic Science Division of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Yes. Dr. Johnson. I have met Dr. Johnson. I knew that he was available to testify# but he also was not in court; presumably he was in Washington and would fly down if he was needed. Q You are not certain of that either, are you? A Of course, I'm not certain that he wasn't in town, but he wasn't in the courtroom. Q Now, did Dr, Lumb cast a ballot in the December vote? A Yes. Q Did Dr. Lumb testify against Dr. Eaton in this case? A Yes. Q Isn't it true that Dr. Lumb tried to influence members of the staff to vote against Dr. Eaton, and that for that reason there v*as a second ballot? A I don't believe Dr. Lumb had anything to do with the second ballot, Q I'm talking with respect to the first ballot. Did Dr. Lumb attempt to influence members of the staff against Dr. Eaton? A No, I don't think he did. Q Did you? A Well, not intentionally. If I did influence anyone, it was not with the intention of influencing anyone. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I will clarify that, if I may. People asked me specific questions concerning the trial, and I answered them. Q Isn't it also likely that they asked Dr. Lumb specific questions? A Of course, yes. Q And isn't it also likely that Dr. Lumb told people on the staff that he thought they should vote against Dr. Eaton? MR. HOGUEi I object to the question as to its form and also as to its content. BY MR. MELESNER: Q Will you answer the question, please? A Do we have a Judge to rule on this? MR. MELESNER: You may answer the question. The objection is for the record, sir. THE WITNESS: I see. Is that right, Mr. Hogue? MR. HOGUE: Yes, sir, you can answer it if you can. I don't see how anybody could answer that question. THE WITNESS: Well, I can't answer the question. MR. MELESNER: Would the reporter please read back that question? Q (Read by Reporter) "And isn't it also likely 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that Dr, Lumb told people on the staff that he thought they should vote against Dr, Eaton?” A Let me say this, If I might deviate slightly. Dr. Lumb was very depressed over this entire thing, and It Is likely that Dr, Lumb's Influence was more for Dr. Eaton than against him, except for a period of time right after the trial during which he was a little bit disturbed. He felt his professional reputation had been smirched, Q So that the trial wasn't a basis upon which one could oppose Dr. Eaton? A Well, I don't know about that. Q Well, the man who was closest to the trial didn't oppose Dr. Eaton because of It? A Dr, Lumb eventually did not oppose Dr. Eaton. I don't know what his vote finally was, but he became very noncommltal toward the last. Q Wasn't your reputation also on the line? A Well, I expect it might have been. Q You were Dr. Lumb's associate? A Yes, I worked with him closely on the case. Q And you have taken over his position? A Yes. Q The result of the trial, then, affected Dr. Lumb's reputation? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 l6 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I didn't say that. I 3aid that he felt it might have. Q I believe you said he was depressed over it? A He was very unhappy over the whole thing: first, that a doctor in the community was tried for abortion and, second, that he was involved in the trial and, third, that he had to testify against a doctor. He was unhappy over the whole thing, and so was the entire medical community. Q Were you unhappy with it? A I didn't like it. Fortunately, I didn't have to testify, q You mentioned a statement earlier supposedly shown to Dr, Lurab by Dr. Eaton's attorney; is that correct? A Yes. Q Didn't this statement indicate that the deceased knew she was in a state of abortion, and that no one in Dr, Eaton's office or Dr. Eaton had anything to do with causing that state of abortion? A It implied this, q Well, now, it said it, didn't it? A No, I really don't know what the words were. It was a good while back that this happened. q So you may have been wrong in your characterizatl 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of that statement when Mr. Hogue asked you about it? A I don't think so. It would be nice to get that record from Dr. Eaton, because he surely must still possess it. Q You think the language involved should decide it, not your testimony about what the language is? A Well, it would be nice to decide it, if we are going to bring this unpleasant event back up, on documents that were made on the spot at that time rather than recollections many months later. Q Well, did you bring this unpleasant memory to mind when you cast your ballot against Dr, Eaton in February? wevei5— A Well, I have,) really forgotten it since. Now, mind you, I haven't told you how I voted. Q Let me strike that question then about the way you voted. Do you recall this unhappy event when you cast your ballot in February? A I expect I did. Q Did it influence your decision? A Well, remember I voted for him previously, Q Did it influence your decision in February? A Remember, this was the second time? Q lhat is correct. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Well, It didn't Influence ray decision the first time, and X doubt if it influenced my decision A u_j> the second time; it may have in an unoonooious manner. Q You said that other physicians asked you questions about the trial at the time of the discussion of Dr. Eaton’s application. Vihat were these specific questions? A Rather like you are asking me now, except, you know, in a more--- Q I ’m afraid I can't hear you. Would you speak up, please? A They asked more or less the same questions you are asking now except in, of course, different language and under different circumstances, Q Well, now, Doctor, I have asked a lot of questions and it is difficult for me to keep track of which ones you mean; so would you repeat some of them for me? A About the trial. Q You said "specific questions." I want to know what specific questions about the trial they asked. A This happened a long time ago. Many people have talked about this. 3hey asked whether I thought an abortion was done, and I said, "Yes, in my own mind 1 2 3 4 3 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 "Did her deaththere is no doubt of it.” They asked, result from an abortion?" And I said, "In my mind there is no doubt of it." It was established that her body was found in his office, and so I made a statement as to that. Q But you say that if the trial itself and the events surrounding it influenced your decision, it was only unconscious? A I think so. Of course,•unconscious feelings are very strong feelings. Q Do you know who brought the supposed crime to the attention of the police? A I understand that a relative of the woman who died first spoke about it to someone, and it started a rumor. It eventually got to the coroner and other a *. <a( persons in authority, and they then questioned the explanation, Q Do you know how many months after the death this took place? A It was two or three; it was awhile afterwards. Q Only two or three? A I don't remember. It was a good while after wards. Q A good while afterwards? A Well, really, if you were going to ask me that, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 6 17 18 19 20 21 I wish you had asked me to bring my records on that, too. It was a good while afterwards. Q To the best of your recollection, Doctor. Now, was that person who spoke to the sheriff, the coroner, about it actually Dr. Wheeler? A I don’t have that information. Really, I have to say I don't know who first brought it to the attention of the authorities, but I hear that first the family got word about the case; and then where it went, I don't know. Q As far as you know it could have been brought to the attention of the authorities solely through malice? MR. HOGUE: Objection to that question. A It's possible, MR. MELESNER: No further questions from me, Mr. Hogue. RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HOGUE: Q Doctor, no member of the governing board or its director had anything to do with that investigation as far as you know, did it? A That '3 right, so far as I know. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q did you, A You never had any dealings with them at all, with respect to Dr. Eaton's criminal indictment? That's right, they weren't involved. Q Your dealings were purely with the SBI, the State Bureau of Investigation, is that correct, and the local police; isn't that correct? A And the coroner's office, yes,^Mr. Burney and Mr. Bowman. Signature of Witness: L A W Y E R ’S NOTES P age L ine 1 2 3 4 3 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 D R . H A R R Y Van V E L S 0 R , having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT-EXAMINATION BY MR. MELESNER: Q Will you state your full name and medical specialty, please, Doctor. A Harry VanVelsor, Dermatologist. Q How long have you been practicing medicine? A Since 1949. Q How long have you been practicing here in Wilmington? A Since 1952. Q Are you a member of the staff at James Walker Hospital? A I am. Q How long have you been a member of the staff? A Since, I think, '52 or '53* courtesy staff then; and regular staff since ' 5 4 - 1 believe now, I'm not sure - approximately '54. Q Are you on the staff of Community Hospital? A No, I'm not. Q Are you familiar with Dr. Hubert Eaton's attempts to gain membership on the courtesy staff of 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 James Walker? A I am. Q Do you recall in December of 1964 and again in February of 1965 receiving a ballot to vote on Dr. Eaton's application? A I do. Q Do you recall how you voted on those occasions? A I do. Q How did you vote on those occasions? A I voted for him being accepted on the staff. Q To the best of your understanding were those secret ballots? A Yes. Q And was any reason given for the vote? A Well, the reason was he was applying for staff membership; other than that, I didn’t know of any reason. Q When you voted, you didn't give any reason, did you? A No. Q And is it your understanding of the procedure that no physician need give a reason vrtiy he casts his ballot? A Well, I always thought that it was a secret ballot and you didn't have to say why, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Isn't it possible, then, that physicians who opposed Dr. Eaton could do so for personal reasons? A I imagine so. Q Reasons in no way related to his medical competence or character? A I suppose so. Q For racial reasons? A Possibly. Q Because of his civil rights activity? A Possibly. Q Or just because they didn't like the way he looked ? A Well, I think that's stretching it a little bit. Q Well, it is possible, isn't it? A It's possible. Q Do you know of any reason why Dr. Eaton should not be on the staff at James Walker? A Well, if I did, I would have voted against him. Q Are you aware that the credentials committee had endorsed his application? A Yes. Q Is that an endorsement of an applicant's competence? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q Did you give weight to their endorsement? A Well, it helped — it let me make up my mind. If they had not endorsed him, I certainly would not have voted for him, Q Are you aware of any standards for medical staff membership at James Walker aside from those in the by-laws of the medical staff? A I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about. Could you be more specific? Q Are there any standards or guidelines to your knowledge which suggest how a physician should vote and what he should consider when passing on an application for courtesy staff membership at the hospital? A Well, I don't know that any are written down, Q There are none that are written down? A I'm not aware of them, Q What did you consider? A Well, if you want to know why I voted that way, I'll be happy to tell you, Q Would you, please? A I feel that once a physician is on the staff of James Walker Hospital, all physicians will then be required to live up to certain standards set by the hospital A Iheoretically it is, yes, sir, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 In the practice of medicine. This I feel will help the entire community, patients and physicians and the hospital alikej and X felt that any physician who is competent should be allowed to practice there and prove his competency and thereby improve the quality of medicine in Wilmington. Q If he were deficient after being placed on the staff, could he be taken off the staff? A Yes. Anyone who is on the staff at James Walker, if he doesn't live up to certain standards, can be taken off the staff for a certain length of time. Q Or his privileges could be limited? A That's what I mean - privileges suspended. Q Is that common In medicine today when a physician isn't able to keep up to the quality of practice? A It happens not infrequently at the James Walker Hospital. Q So if Dr. Eaton wasn't a good surgeon, for example, he could be retained on the staff, but his surgical privilege could be suspended? A No, not If he's not a good surgeon. If he doesn't live up to the standards that are set by the James Walker Hospital. Now, of course, I don't know the standards in the surgical department because I have 1 2 3 4 3 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 nothing to do with the surgical department, but I know they have certain standards that all the surgeons have to live up to. Q Are you aware that with possibly one or two or three exceptions, every white physician in the City of Wilmington is presently on the staff at James Walker or has been on the staff at James Walker? A I believe I know that. Q Did you attend the medical staff meetings which discussed Dr. Eaton's application? A I believe I did. Q There was a general discussion of Dr. Eaton's application? A Well, I don't recall, honestly, hearing Dr, Eaton's name mentioned. I think I recall some talk about changing the voting laws, but I don't recall his name being specifically mentioned. Q Is it possible that some of the physicians on the staff of James Walker opposed Dr. Eaton because of his opposition to the new hospital bond issue? A It's possible. Q Do you have any knowledge of any physicians opposing him for that reason? A No, I do not. Q Was that a fairly controversial issue among 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 physicians here - the new bond issue? A I don't think it was very controversial; I think most of them favored it. Q There was some opposition in the community on it? A Considerable. Q Do you know anything of fears expressed by Negro physicians and the Negro community in general about this new hospital? A No. As I said, I'm not on the staff of Community, so I don't know what the feeling was at that hospital. You hear a lot of rumors in town, but I don't listen to rumors. N MR. MELESNER: Thank you, Doctor. That is all from me. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HOGUE I Q Doctor, you are aware that three out of the four Negro doctors who have applied for the staff of James Walker Hospital have been admitted, aren't you? A Yes, I am. Q And two of them, I believe, are presently on the staff? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q And the procedures used with respect to them and with respect to the white doctors who have been admitted since you came to Wilmington, were the same as those with respect to Dr. Eaton, weren't they? A That's right. Q They were all voted on? A That's right. Q Did any members of the board of directors of the hospital, the Board of Managers, or Mr. Martin the executive director of the hospital, attempt to influence your decision in this matter at all? A No. MR. HOQUE: I have no further questions. REDIRECT-EXAMINATION BY MR. MELESNER: Q Doctor, did you vote for or against the other Negro physicians who applied? A For. Q All of them? A Yes, sir. A Yes, sir. Signature of Witness: L A W Y E R ’S NOTES P a g e L in e 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 D R . S A M U E L V A R S H A U E R . having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT-EXAMINATION BY MR. MELESNER: Q Will you state your full name and medical specialty. A Samuel E. Warshauer, internal medicine. Q How long have you been practicing medicine here in Wilmington, Doctor? A Continuously since 1945. Q Are you on the staff at James Walker Hospital? A Yes. Q What positions do you hold on the staff? A At the present time? Q Correct. A I'm attending physician in medicine and president of the medical staff. Q Were you president during December of 1964 and February of 1965? A I took this office — let's see, this is •65 — since October the 1st, 1963. Q Are you now or were you ever on the staff of Community Hospital? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Yes. Q I believe your staff membership there terminated--- A Not completely. I still utilize the hospital as a courtesy member and as a consultant. Q Are you also a member of the Board of Managers of the James Walker Memorial Hospital? A By virtue of my position on the staff. Q I presume, then, you have been on the board as long as you have been president of the medical staff? A That's correct, yes. Q Are you aware of the lawsuit which Dr. Eaton brought against the hospital, and the order which the court issued in August of 1964? A Yes, sir. Q What was your understanding of that order? A That the hospital was not to discriminate in its staff membership by reason of race, or not to reject applicants by reason of race. Q Did you also understand that the hospital was to be considered a public hospital? A Yes, sir. Q Was it your understanding, and is it your understanding that the hospital could deny staff privileges for any other reason than race? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A The hospital can deny staff privileges for any reason other than race, yes, Q Could do so because it Just didn't like the way a man acted? A Well, when you speak of the hospital, you are speaking of an impersonal thing. People act for the hospital according to its rules and regulations, Q Who makes the decision on staff membership? A The final decision is made by the Board of Managers upon recommendation of the attending staff of the hospital. Q Did the Board of Managers make the decision with respect to Dr. Eaton's last application? A ihey approved the recommendation of the attending staff. Q They did not attempt to exercise any independent Judgment ? A They requested the staff to reconsider his application, and the staff did so, Q And the staff rejected the application] correct? A On a reconsideration, yes. Q And was it solely because of this rejection that the board turned down Dr, Eaton's application? A The board was unwilling to act contrary to the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 /staff recommendation. Q Has this always been the policy of the board? A As far as I know, the board has never acted in an opposite manner to a staff recommendation for membership. The board feels that the medical staff is better able to evaluate an applicants qualifications than the board is; that’s my impression, sir. Q Did you attend board meetings which discussed Dr. Eaton's application? A Yes, sir, I have attended practically all the board meetings since I have been a member. Q What was the nature of the discussion about Dr. Eaton’s application? A I don't recall exactly. I don't know how to answer that, really. The discussion ranged over wide areas, and I Just don't know exactly — I would be speaking for somebody else,what somebody else said at board meetings, and I don't recall it in sufficient detail to really tell you that. Q Do you think that the board is empowered to place a physician on the courtesy staff regardless of what the medical staff decides? A It has that power in its rules and regulations. Q It chose not to exercise that power with respect to Dr. Eaton. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 l6 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Well, It has chosen not to exercise that power In regard to any applicant as far as I know. Q Do you recall how you voted on Dr. Eaton's application? A I did not send in a ballot; and when one is not sent in, it is counted as an affirmative. Q Is this true on both occasions, December and February? A I think so. Q Why did you not send in a ballot and support Dr, Eaton's application? A When one doesn't send in a ballot, one in effect supports the application. Q Why did you support the application is what I am asking you? A I did not in my own mind have a valid reason for voting against him. Q Isn't it true under the procedure that the medical staff does not give a reason why it has failed to recommend an applicant? A That's true, yes. Q Then the only important thing is the total of the votes? A The actual vote. Q The board doesn't seek to learn what the reasons 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 were? A The board sought in this case to learn what the reasons were, but apparently they were — the communication to the staff was a bit faulty. Maybe 1 had something to do with itj I mean maybe it was my fault. As I recall, when the board sent the application back for reconsideration, they requested the staff to give them reasons for the rejection, and I was supposed to Inform the staff of this situation; but it was my feeling that the staff was not willing to state reasons - that is, the members of the staff; they were of the opinion that they could, as they had always done in the past, keep their reasons to themselves and vote as they so felt; and I could not pursue it any further, and they merely voted again, and the applicant was again rejected, and the Board of Managers felt obliged to accept that recommendation. Q So it 1b possible, isn't it, that members of the medical Btaff voted against Dr. Eaton for reasons you would consider invalid ones? A I can't speak for those who voted against him; they might have had very valid reasons. Q And they might have had very invalid reasons? A Well, I can't say why. Q Because you don't know the reasons? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A That's correct, yes. Q Do you know of any attempt made by yourself or the board, other than what you have stated, to learn the reasons why Dr. Eaton's application was rejected? A None except what I have already stated. The staff was instructed not to consider race in any applicant for the medical staff of the hospital, and I am not at all sure that that was the deciding factor in their vote in this case at all. They accepted other applicants, two others who applied, of the Negro race. Q Dr. Eaton was always in the foreground of this controversy,wasn't he, though? A Well, you know that as well as I do, sir. MR. HOGUEi I would like for the lawyer to define "foreground." Do you mean that his name first appeared in the complaint with the other names* is that what "foreground" means? Because you have used that several times, and there were several Negro plaintiffs in this action. The "foreground" means that his name was first on the pleadings or just what it means, I would like to know, because I know his name was first on the pleadings. Is that what you mean? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 li 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 MR. MELESNERs (To the witness) This Is a lawyer speaking for the record, Doctor. That's not a question, at least not to you, Q What we have here Is a situation where the staff voted, and nobody knows or can say the reasons for the result; isn't that correct? A Well, I don't know the reason. Q So the reason might have been Dr. Eaton's civil rights activity; it might have? A That's your statement; I really don't know, sir, Q You don't know one way or the other? A No, sir. Q It is possible that you don't know the reasons the way people voted that they voted because of Dr. Eaton's civil rights activities; isn't that so? MR. HOGUE: I will object to the form of the question. A Well, sir, that would be a speculation on my part; and I don't think I'm entitled to speculate why people voted as they did. Q Well, actually, Doctor, I am Just trying to — perhaps I have established it so often that I Just want to do so (again. Ihe procedure used by the medical staff and accepted by the board permits physicians to vote for 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 purely subjective reasons; isn*t that so? A Yes. Q And these subjective reasons could be anything? A They would have to be reasons satisfactory to the person who voted. The criteria would be his own. Q A Q set forth; A Those critera are not set forth in the by-laws? No, sir. And there is no other document where they are isn't that correct? In the voting? Q Right. A Not in the voting. Q Well, now, the credentials committee passed favorably on Dr. Eaton; isn't that so? A Yes, sir. Q Are you a member of that committee? A Ex-officio as president of the medical staff. Q What is the function of the credentials committee? A Supposed to look into the credentials of applicants and their character and their training and to see if they can find any reason for rejecting or accepting him in order to make a recommendation. Q Are its recommendations usually followed? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 A Usually; not always. Q Did you vote In favor of Dr. Roane and Dr. Gray when their applications came in? A For Dr. Roane, yes. I don't recall about Dr. Gray; I had some reservations about him, and I don't know whether I voted for him or not. Q As a board member do you think that you were obliged to conduct an independent investigation before voting to follow the recommendation of the medical staff? A No. Q Do you think that as far as you are concerned the board discharged its responsibility under the court order by filing this recommendation? MR. HOGUE: I object to that question. BY MR. MELESNER: Q That is for the purpose of the record, Doctor, You may answer the question. A I really think the board did everything it could, under past precedence of its action since the hospital has been organized, to follow the court order other than overriding the staff recommendation, and I don't know whether that would have been a proper thing for the board to do or not; it could have gotten into great difficulty if it had made a practice of overriding 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 staff recommendations in medical matters since the board is composed entirely of laymen up until recent years. Q We get back to this pointi Isn't it possible that the staff decided on non-medical reasons? A Anything is possible; I don't know. Q Do you think you may have Just some people on the medical staff who are opposed in principle to the idea of a Negro being on the staff of James Walker? A At the present time I don't think that there are any members - this is an opinion - that are opposed to membership on the staff because a person is a Negro. Ihat might have been quite true in the past, but I think the thinking of most of the members of the staff has been altered. Q But there are a few who are opposed to Dr. Eaton because he is a Negro, and a few who voted against the other Negro physicians; isn't that correct? A I don't know, I really don't. Some of them might have been opposed in that manner and still have voted for him. It's hard for me to give you the feeling of other people and their thinking; I'm not that close to all of the staff members as to know what their thinking is; and when one talks to persons in the hall and listens to gossip, one doesn't know if that is a person's true feeling or not. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Q Did some of this gossip concern Dr, Eaton being a Negro? A No, sir, not that I know of, not at all. Q Doctor, this Is a letter which you Bent February 3, 1 9 6 5 , to the Members of the Attending Staff. I would like you to read the last paragraph and tell me what It means. A That's what I referred to originally. "The secretary of the governing body, Mr. Martin, has left it up to the medical members of the Board of Managers, namely, Dr. Knox and . . me ". . .Dr. Warshauer to make the necessary explanations, and any member wishing details in this regard may discuss the matter with the medical members of the board." You see, in the by-law it statess "The governing body may accept or reject the recommendations of the medical staff or refer it back for further con sideration." Well, we elected to do the latter. In this case, the latter cases "The governing body shall in struct its secretary to state to the medical staff the reasons for such action." Well, that's the reason of the last paragraph) so that the staff could know the reasons for such action. And those who asked me, I told them that it was sent 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 back to them to make sure that he was not rejected on account of race, and that the board would, if possible, like to know any reasons any member might have for voting against him. Q Did the board receive any such reasons? A As I gathered, the feeling of the staff was that they felt strongly that they should not be asked those reasons; they felt that their prerogatives were abridged by the board asking them for these reasons. Q That they could vote without reason? A That is correct; and that was their very strong feeling. Q Isn*t it possible that some of the language in that last paragraph, phrases such as "necessary explanations" and "any member wishing details in this regard," might have been misinterpreted by some of the physicians on the staff? A Well, it was clear enough to me when I wrote it. I meant to imply that if a member wanted to know why the application was returned by the board, they could ask me and I would tell them all I knew about it. Q Ihere was some resentment among the staff against this second ballot, then? A There might have been. Yes, I think there 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 probably was. Q Do you think some of the members of the staff might have been resentful because of their understanding of this last paragraph? A I don't know about that. I thought the la3t paragraph was necessary to comply with the by-law about sending it back for reasons. I dictated this letter, and I thought it was self-explanatory; I could have gone into great detail about reasons at the time, but I wasn't quite sure; I would have been relying largely upon my memory of a board meeting, and I thought probably a verbal exchange might clarify the situation better. Q And so you relied on the hope of these exchanges rather than a letter of transmittal? A Biat's right, yes. Q Did you have many of these verbal exchanges? A At least two that I can recall; maybe more. Q How many more? Your best recollection. A Oh, half a dozen. Q Doctor, if a physician is placed on the medical staff, courtesy medical staff, at James Walker and it is then observed that his competence isn't what was thought before he was placed on the staff, can his privileges be suspended? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A Yes. Q Isn't it generally true that most every white physician in Wilmington has been or is presently on the staff of James Walker? A It's generally true, yes. Q Do you know the number of white physicians who have been denied courtesy staff privileges at James Walker in the last twenty years? A I can recall two. MR. MELESNERi I have no further questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HOGUE: Q Doctor, isn't it true that three out of the four Negro physicians who have applied for the staff have been admitted, that is, Dr. Oray, Dr. Roane and Dr. Wheeler? A Yes. MR. HOGUEi I have no further questions. REDIRECT-EXAMINATION BY MR. MELESNER: Q ©iese Negro physicians were admitted only as a result of this litigation; isn't that correct? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 MR. HOGUE: I object to that question. Do you want me to state my reason for the objection? MR. MEISSNER: No. MR. HOGUE: I object to it because prior to this the hospital had been adjudged to be a private hospital, and that we didn’t have to admit Negro physicians. I also object to it because Dr. Wheeler was not a plaintiff in thl3 litigation, consequently the question is Inaccurate in that respect. MR. MELESNER: Will you read the question? Q (Read by Reporter) "These Negro physicians were admitted only as a result of this litigation; isn't that correct?" A I think you might state that the applications were submitted following the litigation's conclusion and were submitted to the staff, and the action of the board in these cases is a matter of record. ". . . a s a result of this litigation" - I don't know if that strictly applies. Prior to this litigation the staff was limited, in effect, to white physicians. Q In effect because of an all-white by-law, correct? A Well, that was subsequently changed. It 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 required — It had some other requirement which, really, in effect — you might say that. Q Are you referring to the membership in the New Hanover County Hospital? f S o (Lit ) A Or eligibility for membership or some such phrasing which we subsequently withdrew too because we thought that was not a legal way to do things. But the applications were made following the litigation, and they were voted upon and handled in the usual, routine fashion. Q Just one or two more questions, Doctor. Is it your understanding that these applications were re submitted pursuant to the order of the federal court in August? A I don't know if I can answer that exactly or not. Q You don’t know one way or the other? A No. Q Do you know whether or not the federal court made any findings about the past practice of the hospital? A All the information I have gotten about court decisions have come from the hospital attorney. MR. HOGUE: I object to that, because the court order speaks for itself. MR. MELESNER: I'm testing the man’s 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 understanding of It. THE WITNESS: My understanding Is that the hospital cannot discriminate against staff applicants by reason of race or any other qualification of a similar nature, Q You don't know whether or not the district court In Its order made some finding about the reason Dr. Eaton's application had been rejected in the past? A I think the court made a finding that he had been rejected because of his race, In the past. MR. MELESNER: That is all. Thank you very much, Doctor. Signature of Witness: L A W Y E R ’ S N O T E S P age L ine 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 D R. E D W I N J. W E L L S , having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRE CT-EXAMINATION BY MR. MELTSNER: Q Please state your name and medical specialty for the record, Doctor, A Edwin J. Wells, surgeon. Q How long have you been practicing here in Wilmington, Doctor? A Twelve years, Q Are you on the staff at James Walker Hospital? A Yes, I am. Q Are you on the staff at Community Hospital? A I am not certain, I was last year, I did not reapply this year as I remember, I was on the courtesy staff. OSie reason I say I'm not certain is that I think the courtesy staff has been abolished, I'm not sure. Q That is your best recollection? A Yes. Q Have you ever watched Dr. Eaton perform surgery? A Q I have not. Have you ever made any study of the charts of 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 his operations? A I have not, Q Did you make any independent investigation of his medical competence during 1964 or 1965? A I did not. Q In December of 1964 and again in February of 1965 did you receive a ballot on Dr. Eaton's application for staff membership at James Walker? A I did. Q Were you aware that his application had been passed favorably by the credentials committee of the hospital? A I do not recall. Q Was Dr. Eaton's application, to your knowledge, discussed at a staff meeting held in December of 1964? A Not to my knowledge. Q Did you discuss his application with other members of the staff? A Yes, I have. Q With whom have you discussed it? A I do not recall specifically. Q Do you recall how you voted in December and again in February? A Yes, sir, I do. Q How did you vote? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 l6 17 A My understanding is that this is privileged communication, Q You don’t wish to answer that question? A May I continue? Q Certainly, A Nevertheless, I will waive that privilege; but I want it set forth on the record that I am aware of the fact that it is privileged. I voted no, Q Believing it privileged, Doctor, do you also believe that a physician on the staff need not give any reason for his vote? A Restate your question. Q Do you believe a physician on the staff need tell the reasons he voted for or against a man? A Not necessarily. I feel that he should have reasons, though. Does that answer your question? Q Partially, Doctor, thank you. But you believe it is his privilege, if he wishes to exercise it, not to reveal those reasons? A I waived that privilege. Q You believe the privilege exists? A I do. Q So other physicians might have voted for or against Dr. Eaton for any reason that they thought sufficient? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 A Q A Q procedure A Q I, of course, cannot answer for them. Doesn't that possibility occur to you? It has not. You don't think that's possible under the followed by the medical staff? I don't feel that it's germane to my voting. What was your reason for voting against Dr. Eaton? A Purely on a surgical basis. Q What surgical basis? A I did not feel that he was qualified under the existing regulations to perform major surgery at James Walker Memorial Hospital. Q What particular existing regulations? A Since 1953 there has been in effect a regulation that applicants for the staff must be Board certified or Board qualified or qualified by the American College of Surgeons or a member. Q Are there men on the staff now who do not meet those requirements? A Do you mean are there men who do major surgery? Q That's correct. A My understanding is that there are; but their privileges antedated this regulation being put into effect. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Q Are you a member of the New Hanover County Medical Society? A Yes, sir. Q Are you aware that for many years that society had a by-law restricting membership to whites only? A I have never read the regulation. I have heard it discussed. Q Are you aware that until recently membership in the society was a prerequisite to membership on the James Walker Memorial staff? A I was aware that that regulation had existed, because of my own application, Q Were you aware that until several years ago the James Walker staff had an all-white by-law? A I was not aware of that. Q But you are aware of the medical society by-law? A Yes — well, under oath I'm not absolutely aware of the fact that it existed, but it was my impression that it did exist. Q So it's true that Dr. Eaton was ineligible for membership in the society as long as that by-law existed; correct? A If such by-law did exist. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Q That would be correct; he would be ineligible? A Predicated upon its existence. Q And he, then, would have been ineligible for membership on the staff at James Walker? A Again, predicated upon its existence. Q Dr. Eaton, then, could not have been a member of the staff at James Walker at the time these other physicians who do major surgery and are not Board certified or whatever the requirement is - gained admittance to the staff? A Presumably so. I was not a resident of Wilmington at that time. Q But that’s good enough reason for you to vote against Dr. Eaton's application? A That is not what I said. Q Would you restate what you said? A I stated my reason for voting against his application, previously. Q Sir? A I have previously stated the reason for my voting against his application. Q Do you think that these other physicians who do major surgery and don't have these educational re quirements, which you are talking about, should be removed from the staff of James Walker? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 A Not necessarily. Q What do you mean by "not necessarily"? A To the best of my knowledge, with no copy of the constitution of James Walker before me, there is to the best of my knowledge a so-called "grandfather clause" which does exist. Q In the favor of these physicians? A Not in their favor. Q Permitting them to--- A Permitting them to continue their practice a8 they have, Q You don't think that this regulation would cover the case of a physician who, while he practiced in Wilmington prior to 1953# was not permitted to apply for staff membership? A I have no knowledge of that. Q Doctor, if a physician is placed on the staff at James Walker and then is shown to be deficient in any respect, may his staff privileges be restricted or suspended in any way? A To the best of my knowledge they have been in the past. Q In other words, a man whose surgery was not up to standards would be told that he could no longer use the operating facilities? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A In theory that is true. I know of no surgeons who have exceeded their competency. Q But other physicians on the staff have had their privileges suspended or restricted in some way? A To the best of my knowledge. Q You don't know of a surgeon on the staff who — I didn't get your phrase. Would you please repeat it? "No surgeon on the staff who has . . . " Would you com plete that sentence? A She (indicating reporter) may repeat it, if she will, please. A (Read by Reporter) "In theory that is true. I know of no surgeons who have exceeded their competency." Q Does that statement apply to all of those men who are permitted to do surgery at James Walker? A Now, I am not intimately acquainted with all the surgery that is done at James Walker Hospital. Q Do you know most of the surgeons? A Yes, I do. Q You know most of those who do surgery? A Yes, I do. Q Isn't it true that a Dr. Lounsbury's surgical privileges were restricted a few years ago? A Not to the best of my knowledge. I have no recollection of that 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Do you know how many years Dr. Eaton has practiced in Wilmington? A I do not. Q Do you know what his position is at the Community Hospital? A Do I know what? Q What Dr. Eaton's official position is at the Community Hospital. A No, I do not. Q Do you know how many years he has practiced general surgery? A No, sir, I do not. Q Do you know how many Negro physicians there are in this community? A Five? Q Isn't it true that with one or two exceptions most every white physician in this community has been or is now on the staff of James Walker? A To the best of my knowledge. There are those who are not. Q There are those who are not on the staff? A Yes. Q Or who have not been on the staff? A Now, I cannot answer as to whether-- Q How many men are there in the community who 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you know are not on the staff now and who have never been on the staff? A Well, I can only designate several who are not presently on the staff. Whether or not they have been in the past, I do not know. Q Generally, though, most every white physician in the community is on the staff? A As a generality. Q Are you in favor of the integration of the county medical society? A I am. Q Are you in favor of the integration of the schools of this community? MR. HOGUE: Objection. BY MR. MELTSNER: Q Biat objection is for the record, Doctor. A I object. I do not see the connection between hospitals and schools. Q Are you refusing to answer that question? A No, air. But I am objecting also in the absence of a legal officer. Q Your objection is noted in the record and at the appropriate time the Judge will consider it. But under the rules, a3 I understand them - you may talk to Mr, Hogue if you wish to get his understanding - you 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 are to answer all questions subject to these objections which appear in the record. A I am advised that in essence I need answer nothing in the absence of an officer of the court. But I will answer. MR. HOGUE: Since Mr. Meltsner has stated his theory of the law, my theory is that if the witness wishes to claim privilege, he may refuse to answer any question? and it is Incumbent upon the person taking the deposition or using the deposition to petition the proper legal officer of the court to obtain an order requiring him to answer, if counsel so desires to attain such. BY MR. MELTSNER: Q Doctor, will you please answer the question? A Restate the question, please. Q Are you in favor of the integration of the schools of this county? A In essence. MR. HOGUE: I repeat my objection. A (Continuing) And I will repeat my objection, but I will answer, "in essence”, period. Q Your answer is: "In essence"? A Yes, sir. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q In essence what? A That is my answer. Q Could you elaborate somewhat on that phrase? I don't understand it. A I have answered your question. Q I am asking another question now, sir. A All right, sir. Q Could you elaborate on what you mean by the phrase "in essence"? A This embarks us upon a long discussion of the whole theory of civil rights which I, personally, do not intend to enter upon at this time. Q You were aware of Dr, Eaton's civil rights activity, were you not? A Yes, sir, by the papers. Q Doctor, you have stated, I believe, that your reason for opposing Dr. Eaton's application to the staff was your evaluation of his surgical credentials; is that correct? A That is a paraphrase. Q Would you have opposed Dr. Eaton if he had applied Just for general practice for the staff? A I would not. Q What makes you think that Dr. Eaton had applied for surgical privileges? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A What makes me think that he had? Q Yes. A Because he did. Q Your understanding of his application is that he applied for surgical privileges at the hospital? A Yes, sir. Q Your understanding is that he did not intend to use the hospital for general practice, but for surgery? A My understanding is that he applied for both — on the same application. Q Are you associated in your practice with any other physician here in the community? A I am associated, but I have no partner or legal association. I presume that is to what you refer. Q Do you share an office? A I do not. MR. MELTSNER: I have no further questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HOGUEl Q Doctor, the standards which you applied in casting your vote with respect to Dr. Eaton's application are the same standards you apply with respect to any white 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 doctor or colored doctor, aren't they? MR. MELTSNER: Objection. A Yes, sir. Q I believe you are qualified by the American Board of Surgery; is that correct? A Yes, sir. Q So you meet this requirement of the medical staff by-laws? A I do. Q Doctor, isn't it true that three Negro physicians have been placed on the staff of the hospital since the Judgment in the suit which was pending in federal court? A That is my understanding. Q And two of them, I believe, are presently practicing at the hospital? A That is my understanding. Q Did any member of the Board of Managers of the hospital or did Mr. Martin, the executive director of the hospital, attempt to influence your vote in this matter in any way? A No one did. MR. HOGUE: No further questions. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 REDIRECT-EXAMINATION BY MR. MELTSNER: Q Doctor, did you oppose the applications of these other Negro physicians? MR. HOGUE: I object to this. TOis is not before the court in this hearing. They are on the staff. A My command was to appear at this hearing in behalf of Dr. Hubert A. Eaton, et a l , plaintiffs, not on behalf of any other physician. MR. MELTSNER: Would you please read the question? THE WITNESS: That was ray answer. A (Read by Reporter) "Doctor, did you oppose the applications of these other Negro physicians?" MR. HOGUE: I object. TOE REPORTER: That is the question you are to answer. THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. BY MR. MELTSNER: Q Do you refuse to answer that question? A I answered your question. I answered your question with a statement. MR. HOGUE: He asked you the same 1 2 3 4 3 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 (previously?) privilege, and you MR. MELTSNER: again. The doctor his answer was. said "Yes,” I thought. Will you read the question doesn't seem to know what THE WITNESS: I know what my answer was, sir. Q (Read by Reporter) "Doctor, did you oppose the applications of these other Negro physicians?" A And the next was, "I object," from Mr. Hogue. And then I made a statement, and I quoted from my command, my subpoena, and that was the answer. BY MR. MELTSNER: Q Ihat's your only answer to the question? Are you claiming some privilege here? A No, sir. I have been advised that it is my privilege to refuse to answer--- Q On what grounds? A --- since this is privileged communication. However, - and I want this to be stated as a part of the record and set forth thereon - I will waive that privilege and answer this question. I voted for the other physicians in question in the affirmative. Q Why did you vote for them and against Dr, Eaton? A I did not vote for them against Dr. Eaton 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q "And" against Dr. Eaton. A I voted for them for the reasons that I have previously set forth. I did feel that they were qualified under the existing regulations to practice their chosen field. Q You thinlc they had met the educational re quirements of this by-law to practice surgery at James Walker? A Only one, as I recall, had made an application to practice a surgical specialty, and to the best of my knowledge he has either passed the American Board of Ophthalmology or is eligible. Q You are not aware that Dr. Roane is a practicing surgeon? A l*m not aware of the fact that he is practicing major surgery at James Walker. Q Are you aware that he has practiced major surgery at Community Hospital? A My understanding 1b that he is an obstetrician, I personally do not know Dr, Roane, Q Dr. Roane is now on the staff of James Walker and can use its operating facilities, though, however; isn't that correct? A I do not believe that he has privilege to do major surgery at James Walker. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q Do you think he applied for something different than Dr. Eaton applied? A I have no opinion. Q Let me restate that. Do you think--- A I understood your statement, sir. q Would you repeat your answer, kindly, then? A I can't remember now what I said. Q Then why don't we take it again. Do you think that Dr. Roane and Dr. Eaton were applying for the same thing? A My impression is that Dr. Roane was applying for obstetrical privileges, Dr. Eaton for general practice and general surgery. Q With indications that if Dr. Eaton were just applying for general practice, you would support his application? A I have answered that question. Yes, sir. Q You have indicated that to Dr, Eaton? A To you. Q Did you ever inform Dr. Eaton prior to this time--- A I have had no discussion with Dr. Eaton. Q Your answer, then, is no? A No, I have not discussed it with Dr. Eaton. Q Now, do you believe that Dr. Eaton should be 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 placed on the staff of the new hospital? A I don't know what the new hospital regulations are, sir; but 1 feel that he should,In a capacity commensurate with his qualifications. Q Isn't It possible that a maun can be given such a capacity on any hospital staff? A I don't understand your question. Q Isn't it possible that a man can be given a capacity commensurate with his qualifications on any hospital staff? A If that Is not true, then the various licensing boards in America are suffering from gross disillusion. Q Now, these men who practice general surgery at James Walker under the grandfather clause - do you feel the same way about them in the new hospital? A That they should be allowed privileges? Q Ihat'a correct. A I think that is up to the new Board of Managers! I will have no vote. I, myself, must apply. Q If you have a vote, will you oppose their membership on the staff? A That is hypothetical. Q I'm asking you a hypothetical question, sir. If you have a vote, will you oppose their admission to the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 13 16 17 courtesy staff? A I have no opinion to a hypothetical question, Q Are you aware that the Community Hospital is going to close when the new hospital is completed? A I am not aware of the fact that it will close, I am aware of the fact that that is the intention, Q Do you think that the credentials committee which passed Dr, Eaton’s application was aware of the by-laws of the hospital? A Presumably so. Q How do you explain your not following what the credentials committee recommended then? A I feel that they were in error. May I continue? Q Please do. A I feel that any man in this era at this time should be trained prior to doing major surgery. Q Regardless of race? A Regardless of race, color, creed, religion, any other factor, Q You would support restriction of the privileges of the white physicians on the staff at James Walker who do not have these educational qualifications? A I have stated that publicly before. I feel that any man who does major surgery should be a trained surgeon. 247 1 2 j 3| 4 5 1 6 7 i 8 9 10 I 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q And so the by-laws of the hospital In your opinion are Incompetent? A The by-law of the hospital was made Just prior to my arrival. Q You disagree with it? I beg your pardon? You disagree with it? I disagree with it in part. MR. MELTSNER: I have nothing el3e. MR. HOGUE: No further questions. Signature of Witness: A Q A VXVvi. vs. L A W Y E R ’ S N O T E S P age L ine 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 D R . R. B E R T R A M W I L L I A M S J R ., having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT-EXAMINATION BY MR. MELTSNER: Q Doctor, would you kindly state your full name and medical specialty, please. A R. Bertram Williams Jr., and I practice general and thoracic surgery. Q How long have you been practicing in Wilming ton? A Since 1951* Q Have you been on the staff of James Walker Hospital since that time? A Yes, the staff in some form. Q Are you on the staff ofthe Community Hospital? A I think I am a consultant over at Community; I am not on the attending staff. Q In other words, you haven't been too active at Community Hospital? A Kiat's correct. Q Have you ever observed Dr. Hubert Eaton perform surgery? A No 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 li Q Have you ever made any attempt to study the charts of operations done by Dr. Eaton? A No. Q In December of 1964 and again in February of 1965 did you receive a ballot as a member of the medical staff at James Walker with reference to Dr. Eaton*s application for staff privileges? A I received the ballotsj I'm not sure of the dates. Q It would seem to be about that time to your recollection? A Approximately. Q What did you do with those ballots? A I voted and mailed them back in. Q You returned both of them? A I think I did. Q A you how I Q A Q A Q How did you vote on the first occasion? That was a secret ballot, and I decline to tell voted. You decline to answer that question? Yes. How did you vote on the second ballot? I make the same answer. You decline to answer that question? A Yes 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q Is it your position that you do not have to divulge the reasons you voted? A I don't mind telling you my general feeling. It's Just that I don't think you should ask me how I voted on a secret ballot. Q Your position is you don't have to divulge how you votedj is that correct? A True. Q I would presume, then, that it is also your position that you don't have to tell me why you voted as you voted? A No; I will tell you that. Q Don't you think you are going to reveal to me how you voted? A Yes. Q tions? So you are now agreeing to answer these ques- A No. Q I want you to tell me, first, whether you were aware that the credentials committee of the hospital had acted favorably on Dr. Eaton's application? A Yes. Q for? What did you believe Dr. Eaton was applying A It was my impression that he was applying for 1 2 3 4 3 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 the courtesy staff at the hospital. Q Does everyone on this courtesy staff perform surgery? A No. Q Does everyone on this courtesy staff perform major surgery? A Not to my knowledge, no, Q Are there men at James Walker Hospital who perform major surgery who have not had four years of postgraduate education? A It is my impression that there are. Q Well now, I believe you stated that you would tell me the reason you voted the way you did} is that correct? A I will answer any question that is reasonable except the one that I declined to answer. Q Well, let me get this straight. You feel that you can answer it up to a point, but you are going to decide how you can answer it} is that it? A No, I just feel that the secret ballot, how I voted, should be my own business. Now, any other matter pertaining to that I will be glad to answer to the best of my knowledge. Q But if what you say is correct, can a man be denied staff membership for any subjective reason any 252 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 member of the staff believes appropriate? A It is my impression that the purpose of the ballot is to get the general consensus of the feeling of the staff members. Q Well, that's true of a fraternity election too, sir: the vote represents the consensus, but what goes into the vote can be any subjective consideration which appeals to the people who are voting. Isn't that correct, and isn't that the way it is here? A You are asking me personally. My personal feeling is that they should have a good reason to vote in the way they vote. Q But there is no way of knowing whether they have a good reason, is there? MR. HOGUE: I'll object to that question. "Ihey." I don't know who ''they” is. I thought we were talking about this man's reason. MR. MELTSNER: I will withdraw that ques tion. Q If it'8 a secret ballot and if the persons voting do not divulge fully their reasons for voting, then the man being voted upon will never know, will he, the reason that went into his denial of staff membership? MR. HOGUE: I would like to object to that question on the ground that, one, it is a 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 hypothetical question and this man couldn't possibly answer it other than pure speculation and, No. 2, it is argumentative, BY MR. MELTSNER: Q You don't believe you have to tell me fully the reason you voted the v;ay you voted} isn't that correct? A You haven't asked me that question to my knowledge. Q You have indicated to me that you don't feel you have to tell me. Have you Indicated that to me? A How I voted. Q Why don't you tell me the reasons you voted the way you voted, then? A One reason was that I feel that Dr. Eaton has not shown sufficient evidence to me that his primary interests are the medical hel p -to^^his community. Q is this the primary reason? A That's one of the major reasons. q What are the other reasons, the minor reasons? A That's the major reason. Q You will rest on that one? A Well, I think that's the major one. Q Does this have to do with the building of the new hospital? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A To a great extent, yea, sir. Q You were on opposite aides of the fence over that issue? A Yes, sir. Q What was your position? A Well, it was my feeling that the community was in bad need of this new institution. Q And you don't think that honest men could reasonably differ over this? I A From a medical standpoint, no. Q lhere were two bond issue votes, weren't there, over this new hospital? A Yes. Q What was the result of the first one? A It failed. Q And the second time? A It passed. Q By a large margin or a small margin? A Which time? Q The second time. A As I recall, it was a substantial margin, but I'm not sure Just how large it was. Q Are you aware that many persons in the Negro community here were afraid that they would be treated badly at this new hospital? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 13 l6 17 A No, I'm not aware of that. Q You are totally unaware of any position taken by the Negro physicians or other members of the Negro community against the bond Issue on this ground? A I'm not certain what their grounds were for opposing the issue. Q But you know they were against it? A Yes. Q And that's sufficient reason for voting against Dr. Eaton? A I think that is a reason for having the feeling that I do. Q Did you also oppose Dr. Roane? A No. Q Was Dr. Roane opposed to the new hospital? A I'm not certain how he stood on the new hospital. Q A Q had known A Q A Q But you are certain that Dr. Eaton was? Yes. Would you have voted against Dr. Roane if you for certain that he was against the new hospital? I'm not certain how I would have voted. Did you vote against Dr. Wheeler? No. Did you vote against Dr. Gray? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A No. Q Now, Dr, Gray was opposed to the new hospital, wasn't he? A I'm not certain. q Do you think there is a reasonable possibility that he was opposed to the new hospital? A Well, I said I'm not certain. Q Was there opposition to the new hospital in the Negro community? A I am under the impression that there was. Q Doctor, where does a surgeon earn most of his living? A Most of their living, to my knowledge, is earned in the operating room. Q Would you oppose Dr, Eaton's admission to the staff of this new hospital? A Ihe new hospital? Q Yes, sir. A It is my impression that before the bond issue was voted upon, that point was cleared: that the general work that was being done by the individual doctors, and their privileges, would carry over into the new hospital. And that is my feeling at the present time. Q You would support that? A Yes. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q That Dr. Eaton is medically competent to be on the staff of a modern hospital? A You will possibly have to define "a modern hospital" for me. Q Well, I presume the new hospital is going to be an ultramodern facility Judging from a news broad cast I heard last evening, and I Just thought that was a shorthand way of describing it. It's going to have all the modern facilities for surgeons, isn't it? A I hope it does, Q And Dr. Eaton would be able to practice there? A Now, I'm not deciding who is to practice there; I have to apply, myself. Q But your present feeling is that you support the agreement which will permit him to practice there? A That's my feeling, yes. Q You know the James Walker Hospital is a public hospital? A I believe that's the way the court ruled at this last trial; however, I'm not certain on that point. Q Do you think you have a right at a public hospital to deny a man staff membership because he disagrees with you over the building of another hospital? A I believe I answered that question initially 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 li 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 by saying that he has not shown me sufficient evidence that he is interested primarily in the medical care of this community. Q In other words, opposition to this new hospital is, in your view, opposition to the best interest of the medical care of this community? A Very decidedly so, yes, sir. Q Doctor, are Negro patients still placed in the separate wing at James Walker? A Uiey are placed over the different places in the hospital] they are not all in one place. Q When were they distributed about the hospital first? A I'm not certain of that date. Q Do you think it was after the federal court order of last August? MR. HOOUEx Objection. He said he wasn't certain. MR. MELTSNER: He may have some idea. (To the witness) Would you like the reporter to read the question? Q (Read by reporter) "Do you think it was after the federal court order of last August?" MR. MELTSNER: I Just want your best recollection. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 l6 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I'm not certain of that date. I think that possibly there may have been some before, but the majority of it I believe has been since. Q And would the same be true for the distribution of Negro nurses about the hospital? A I ’m not certain of that. Q Do you think that this placement of Negro patients in one area is to the best interest of the people of the community? A I think that I am very much interested in proper medical care being given to anyone; makes no difference to me whether they are Negro, Indian, Mexican, white - I'm not particularly interested in where they are placed; I'm interested in the medical care they receive. Q You don't think that the area where they are placed has anything to do with it? A I don't think that's an important part. Q Isn't the wing where the Negro patients were placed 5 0 yards or so from the main building of the hospital? A No. Q How far is it? A TSie NegroeB are placed all over the hospital. Q Prior to the change in policy I'm talking about, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Negroes were placed in one wing, were they not? A You mean ten years ago? Q I believe you testified before that Negroes were only distributed throughout the hospital as patients sometime around the order of the federal court last August? A I don't believe that’s correct, Q Your position is that there never was any segregation of patients at James Walker Hospital? A Define "segregation" for me, Q Were there large concentrations of Negro patients in one area? A When? Q Prior to August 1964, A I think so, Q When did this large concentration change? A I'm not certain of the date. I answered that question awhile ago. Q Your best recollection is that it was about August 1964, is that correct? A It is my impression that it was sometime in •64, Q Are you a member of the New Hanover County Medical Society? A Yes. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Are there any Negroes who are members of thatQ society? A Not at the present time, Q Have Negroes ever applied? A Yes. Q Have they ever been accepted? A Not in the New Hanover County Society. It has been a good while since they applied. Q Isn't it true that until recently the society had a by-law restricting membership to whites? A This society was governed by the constitution of the State society; it had no choice. Q Do you know that Dr. Eaton applied in the past and was rejected? A I knew that some applications were made; I'm not certain that his was one of them. Q Do you think the exclusion of Negroes from the society was in the best medical interest of the persons of this community? A The activities of the local society are governed by the constitution of the State society, and we have to follow that constitution. Q Did you ever make any attempt to amend that constitution? A No, not personally. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 262 & Q Did you ever make any attempt to desegregate the patients and nurses at James Walker Hospital prior to August 1964? A You said "segregate,,? A Desegregate. A I have made no effort to segregate or de segregate • Q You just accepted what was? A My interest was giving medical care to my patients and seeing that they were properly cared for in the hospital] that’s my major point. I ’m not particular] interested in the color; that’s not ray main concern. Q Do you know any difference in the life expectancy of Negro and white Americans here in North Carolina? A No, not for sure. Q Do you know of any place in the by-laws of the hospital where it would permit you or authorize you to vote against Dr. 2aton because of his position on the new hospital? A That point is not specifically mentioned in the by-laws. There is no reason for that to be in the by-laws. Q I3 there any other document where that point would be mentioned that you know of? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 13 16 17 18 19 20 21 A Not that I know of. MR. MELTSNER: I have no further questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HOGUE: Q Doctor, did any member of the governing board of the hospital or its director, Mr. Martin, attempt in any way to influence your vote with respect to Dr. Eaton*8 application? A No. These are all my personal opinions. MR. HOGUE: I have no further questions. MR. MELTSNER: Thank you, Doctor. Signature of Witness: L A W Y E R ’ S N O T E S P age L ine 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 D R . R O B E R T W. W I L L I A M S , having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT-EXAMINATION BY MR. MELTSNER: Q Would you state your full name and medical specialty, Doctor. A Robert W. Williams. I am a surgeon, general surgeon. Q How long have you been practicing here in Wilmington? A Since 1953. Q Have you been on the staff at James Walker all that time? A Yes. Q Are you on the staff now at Community Hospital? A No. Q Have you ever watched Dr. Hubert A. Eaton perform surgery? A I wouldn't say so. I mean I have been by the operating room several times when he has been working and this sort of thing, but I don't believe I could really say I have watched him, no. Q Oh, you were on the staff at Community Hospital 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 at one time? A Yes. Q When did you resign from the staff? A A little over a year ago, I guess; I don't remember the date. Q Why did you resign? A Because more and more time was being asked of me to take care of difficult problems over there; and the organization of the hospital seemed to be falling more and more apart. Q Did this responsibility have in part to do with the treatment of indigent patients? A Oh, I guess to a degree, yes. Q Would you elaborate on what you mean by the phrase, "falling apart"? A Well, I think it's as simple as the fact that there were fewer and fewer physicians who were active as far as taking care of the patient load in that hospital. p&LfttCri AfSS Q Given this small number of patients and high patient load, would it have been feasible to open a surgical clinic at Community Hospital? A I don't think so, no, because we didn't have any surgeons except me. Q Did Dr. Eaton hold a position on the staff at Community Hospital? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Yes. Q What was his position? A He was a member of the staff. Q Did he perform surgery at the hospital? A I presume so. Q Did you know Dr. Roane? A Yes. Q Did he perfom surgery at the hospital? A I don't think much. He delivered most of the babies, and it was a terrible chore for him to try and keep up with that. Q What was his specialty - obstetrics? A Well, that's what he did most of, I think, as far as I know. I don't think he was a trained obstetrician. Q Dr. Roane is now on the staff at James Walker, isn't he? A I think so. Q Did you receive ballots in February of 1965 and December of 1964 to vote on Dr. Eaton's application for staff membership at James Walker? A I think those were the dates. Q Did you return both of these ballots? A No. Q Did you keep both of them? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 A No. Q, What did you do with the first one? A I don't remember. Q What did you do with the second one? A I sent it back. I replied on it. Q Doctor, would you repeat your last answer? A I sent it back or turned it in. Q You don’t recall what you did the first time ? A No, I don't. Well, I know that I didn't send the ballot in. Q Well, isn't that counted as an affirmative vote? A Yes. Q What did you mark on your second ballot? A I said "No." Q What made you change your mind? A lhe fact that we had had this activity with regard to the hospital setup in Wilmington and the fact that I had felt that during ray time at Community Hospital on several occasions over the period of years that I had been "put upon" so to speak. Q By the staff at Community? A Yes. q You had been overworked, is that it? A Well, I'm sure in your business people can at 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 times impose upon your time, and at times it is difficult for you to avoid this imposition. Q How would Dr. Eaton have imposed upon you? A Well, I don't know that he did any more than anybody else, but there were occasions when there were patients over there which I did not feel fell within my Dg tf injTt*meed or that I was not strictly responsible for, and yet I wound up having to take care of them. Q Was there any particular way in which Dr. Eaton was a burden to you? A Oh, I can't say specifically "he," but I had .the* residents who jaae there at times come to me and say, "Here's a patient who needs so and so and so and so "Tfe— „ d)f\sdone, and I can't get pother doctor*' . . . who supposedly looking after this patient ”. . . to do any thing about it. What will I do?" Q This was a general problem? A Often. I think it was; I don't think it was a specific one. What I mean I can't say it was always Dr. Eaton's patient. q This problem existed before December of 1964, I take it? A Oh, yes, I think it wa3 a gradual thing, sure. Q When were you first placed on the staff of 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 13 16 17 18 19 20 21 Community Hospital? A Well, when you say "on the staff," when I first came here and asked to be put on the staff in surgery, I was advised that I could come over there and work if I wanted to as a member of the courtesy staff but that I would not be given any privileges in surgery or not be given specific privileges in surgery which is the only field I felt competent to work in. Q You were placed on the courtesy staff? A Yes. Q This is true also at James Walker, isn't it? A man can be on the courtesy staff and not have certain other privileges? A Well, the organization of the two hospitals is different, and both of them have changed from time to time during the time I have been here. Q Well, for example, there are men on the courtesy staff at James Walker who do not perform surgery; isn't that true? A Yes. There are also ones who do. Q Do you recall the application of Dr. Roane for staff privileges at James Walker? A Well, I recall that he made application within the last year or so. Q Did you vote for him? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I don't remember. Q Well, wouldn't you have opposed him for the same reason you voted against Dr. Eaton the second time? A I think I would have, yes. Q How about Dr. Gray - do you remember voting on his application? A No, I don't. I'm pretty sure that I did not send it back. Q How about Dr. Wheeler? A I didn't send his in either. Q Forgive me for asking you again, but when did you resign from the staff of Community? A I don't remember the exact date, but I guess it was about a year ago. Q About last summer? A Yes, last summer is my recollection. Q As I understand your testimony, you did not vote In February against Dr. Eaton because of anything to do with his medical competence but because of a dispute of seme kind or, more precisely, duties which were given to you when you were at the Community Hospital; is that a correct statement of it? A Well, I think that's part of it, sure. I mean these things are distasteful to me. Q They are distasteful to all of us, sir. I am 1 2 3 4 3 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 22 2k 25 just trying to get out whether or not you are going to state here that you think Dr. Eaton is not a competent physician. A Well now, I think the crux of this matter comes into the rather detailed or what-have-you business of the classification of physicians. I don't know whether in the legal profession you all talk about tax lawyers and some other kind of lawyer or some other kind of thing in the 3ame vein that we divide up physicians, but within the medical profession we have a fair amount of distinction between somebody who is trained to do one thing and trained to do another; and I think, to my knowledge, Dr. Eaton is a perfectly licensed physician and able to do all ordinary treatment, but I wouldn't consider him a trained surgeon. Q He has had a long career as a surgeon, hasn't he? A I don't know. Q You don't know how long he has practiced as a surgeon? A I don't know how long he has practiced at all. I know he has been here and was in practice when I came here. Q Would it mean anything to you if I told you he has practiced as a surgeon for over twenty years? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Would that be some training? A No, I don't think it has anything to do with training by the standards we use today. Q What standards are you talking about? A I'm talking about the American Board certifica tion in various fields; I'm talking about graduate residencies; I'm talking about training of a specific nature for which a record is kept of when a man does this and what his performance is during that time. Q Now, aren't there men on the James Walker staff who don't meet those standards? A Oh, yes. Q Men who do perform major surgery? A Yes, I guess they do perform some major A H'c.'f' surgery, yes; I think/jlittle, but I think they do^perform oeme^ . ^ +}a j a ^ «. Q So there are men on the staff who don't meet these qualifications. Would it be correct for me to say that with few exceptions most of the white physicians in Wilmington are on the staff at James Walker? A I don't know Just how many right now. You say "most"? Surely more than half, yes, but I don't know the exact number, and there are a few people I don't know -whlre their status ie right now. q Do you have any idea hov; many physicians have 1 2 3 4 3 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 been denied staff membership at James Walker since 1945? A You mean Just courtesy staff membership, or are you talking about denied privileges---? Q What is your understanding of what Dr. Eaton applied for? Didn't he apply for the courtesy staff? A Yes, but with privileges to do surgery. Q So if he applied for the courtesy staff of the hospital, he would not have been on the attending staff? A Not Initially. Q Would it surprise you if I told you that only two physicians have had their applications for the courtesy staff refused since 1945? A I don't know. I mean since I have been here, I know of one, that's all. Q You are aware that the credentials committee acted favorably on Dr. Eaton's application? A Yes, I was on the credentials committee at that time. Q What did the credentials committee's approval of Dr. Eaton's application mean to you? A Uie same thing it means with anybody: that he is a licensed physician in the community, and that his medical school is one that one knows of, and that we have some reasonable idea that they haven't got a false 275 diploma or something else of this sort on their hands, and that the physician is of reasonably good moral and ethical character as far as we know. Q That's all it means? A That's all that I understand that it's supposed to perform. Q Who else was on the credentials committee? A Dr. O'Quinn, I believe, and I think Dr. Warshauer at that time. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q Could it have been Dr. McKay rather than Dr. Warshauer? A It could have, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't. Q Doesn't Dr. Warshauer serve as an ex-officio member of that committee? A At the present time or--- ? I don't know. Q Aside from the by-laws of the hospital staff, would you direct me to any other document where the standards for staff membership are set forth? A I don't think that Just for membership on the staff there are any, no. Now, there has been a great deal of, oh, over the years attempts by a good many of us to try to departmentalize James Walker Hospital and to set up standards for the individual departments. Q These standards are written down nowhere, 25 though, are they? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A They have not all been, at least not all the ones that I have talked about* Q They are specialty staff rules, is that correct? A Right. q i»m talking now about general medical staff. A Well, you see, there Is no general medical staff. That’s the point I am trying to make. Q I'm talking now about the courtesy staff. A One must apply to a department. In other words, one can apply and one has to apply as a courtesy member first. You cannot apply immediately to be a member of the attending staff. We have a provision for a period of time as a courtesy staff member. When I came to town, for instance, I applied for the courtesy staff of James Walker Hospital; I applied in surgery; I asked for privileges to do surgery, not to treat children, not to do obstetrics, not to do anything else; and I was granted these privileges as a courtesy 3taff member. Now, this put certain limitations upon me which, for instance, an attending surgeon did not have upon him. q Are you testifying that there are no general practitioners on the staff of James Walker? A No, no. There are some people in general 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 practice, Q They are not in any specialty? A Ye a,*/they are assigned to the Department of Internal Medicine for their work or their activity, although there is a department provided for in general practice. Q Now, are there any specific standards, written standards,for the surgical staff? A Yes. Q And these are not in the by-laws' rules and regulations? A I think they are. Q Anything besides what is in there? A No, I don't think there are any others besides those, but there are some in there. Q Did you attend the medical staff meeting which discussed Dr. Eaton's application in December of 1964? A No. Q Did you discuss Dr. Eaton's application with other members of the staff? A You mean prior to when? I discussed it with members of the credentials committee when he was under an indictment here. Q What was the nature of that discussion? A Well, simply the fact that there had been a 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 good deal of public knowledge that he was under a criminal Indictment, and I as a member of the credentials committee felt that this was sufficient at that time so that he should not be considered for a member of our staff. Q You mean that his application be rejected? A Yes. And the credentials committee in our discussions simply said, "Well, do we really know that he is under this indictment?" And they asked me to write to the court and find out whether this was so. Q And you did that? A Yes. Q And what did you learn? A I learned that he was. Q And did you report back to the credentials committee? A Yes. Q What.occurred at that time? A Hie application was withdrawn or withheld - I don't know what you call it - until this matter was straightened up. Q Did you again write to the court in order to determine the manner in which this matter was straightened up? A I didn't write to them, no. But I did telephone 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the clerk of that court and say, "Was this completed?" And they said, "Yes," Q Did you inquire the basis upon which it was completed? A Well, Just that the indictment had been dis missed, Q And subsequent to that time what action did the committee take? A Ihey passed the application forward, Q What was the vote of the committee? A I don't think there was any vote; I think it was passed forward. Q Was it a consensus of the membership? A I would say so, yes, Q So what occurred at this criminal trial was not sufficient to cause the committee to withhold Dr, Eaton's application? A No, Once this was withdrawn, they felt apparently 3ince there had been no particular thing or no decision reached jsur anything about it, — as I understood it, the charges were dismissed in some form or other, Q As far as the committee was concerned and Dr. Eaton's application was concerned, he was cleared? A Yes, of this charge. Q Are you aware that the Joint Commission on 1 2 3 4 3 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Accreditation has recently strongly recommended that hospitals consider physicians' experience and their proven skill rather than simply going by their educational background? A No, I can't say I am. I have had an awful lot of communication with them, but I can't say that I'm familiar with that recommendation. MR. MELTSNER: 'Blank you. lhat is all. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HOGUEt Q Doctor, would you state whether or not any member of the Board of Managers of the hospital or its director, Mr. Martin, or any other officer or employee of the hospital tried in any way to influence your vote with respect to Dr. Eaton's application? A Ihey never discussed my vote about anybody with me. Q Isn't it true that there have been three other Negro doctors admitted to the staff of the hospital? A (mat's my understanding at the moment, yes. q Dr. Roane and Dr, Wheeler and the late Dr. Gray. A That's my understanding. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 li 12 13 14 15 l6 17 18 MR. HOGUE: I have no further questions. REDIRE CT-EXAMINATION BY MR. MELTSNER: Q Just a very few questions, Doctor. You told me that you voted for Dr. Roane, Dr. Gray, Dr. Wheeler, and for Dr. Eaton the' first time, as I recall. But in February you returned a ballot marked against him. What happened between the December ballot and the February ballot ? A Well, I got sick of this business. Q Sick of what business? A Thi3 repeated trying to get on this staff, and this and that and the other thing; arguing about political matters, and everybody wondering about how they were going to do this and how they were going to do that, instead of looking after the patients. q Were you resentful that the board had sent the application back for another vote? A I was resentful of the fact that the United States Court and the board and everybody else were delving into these things which I thought any upstanding group of doctors ought to be able to manage on their own. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Q And that's the reason you changed your vote? A Yes. Q, Would It surprise you if I told you that many of your colleagues on the staff have cited as their reason for voting against Dr. Eaton his opposition to the new hospital? MR. HOGUE: Objection. THE WITNESS: What do I do now? MR. MELTSNER: Well, that objection is for the record. Would you like the reporter to read the question? A No, it wouldn't surprise me. Q That's politics, isn't it? A Sure. Q Is that what you think ought to enter into deciding whether or not a man gets on the medical staff? A No; but it does. Q And it did on Dr. Eaton's application, didn't it? i A Well, I don't know whether that was the sole thing on his application or not. But I'm sure if you go around the country and go to hospital staffs, you will find that many of them have all sorts of requirements here and there; I have seen them change in these hospitals in the time I have been here. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q Well, la there any requirement you know of that you have to agree to the building of a new hospital in a community, when you are against it, to get on a medical staff? MR. HOGUE: Objection. A Well, do you refer Just to our hospital or do you refer to other instances? I have heard of many instances when this is the absolute requirement for some one to get on the staff, yes. Q Are you aware that James Walker is a public hospital? A No. I thought it was a private hospital. Q You still think it's a private hospital? A Basically; it’s chartered private as far as I know, and I know the only person that has anything to do with it is the Board of Managers. Q Do you think a public hospital should be permitted to deny staff membership because of politics? A Do I think it should? Q Yes. A Oh, no. I think it's an academic matter. It happens. Q It happens. But you would be opposed to it if you could do something about it, wouldn't you? A Yes. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 li MR. MELTSNER: Thank you, Doctor. That is all. Signature of Witness: L A W Y E R ’ S N O T E S P age L ine D R . H O O P E R D. J O H N S O N , having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT-EXAMINATION BY MR, MELTSNER: Q Would you state your name and medical specialty, please. A Hooper D, Johnson. I specialize in diseases of the ear, nose, and throat. Q How long have you been practicing here in Wilmington, Doctor? A Seven years. Q Are you on the staff of the James Walker Hospital? A Yes, sir, Q Have you been on the staff for seven years? A Yes, sir. Q Do you know of any reason why Dr. Hubert Eaton should not be a member of the courtesy staff of James Walker Hospital? A What do you mean by that? Q Let me rephrase the question. Are you aware of any reason which you think sufficient which would cause Dr. Hubert Eaton from being a member of the courtesy 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 13 16 17 staff at Janes Walker Hospital? A Do you mean any particular category on the courtesy staff, or the staff a3 such? Q The staff as such. A I think It's required that anyone applying for privileges has to request specific privilges, and to the best of my ability, in my own personal case, any time I have been asked to decide this question, I have decided it on the qualifications of the person applying and for what they were applying; and if I did not feel that this person was qualified, I personally voted that he not be accepted, solely on the basis of his qualifica tions . Q Solely on the basis of his qualifications now, do you know of any reason why Dr. Eaton should be denied membership on the James Walker staff? A In his particular case it is my opinion that he was requesting surgical privileges for which he had not received sufficient training. Q Did you vote against Dr. Eaton’s application? A Yes, sir, I did. Q On both occasions? A Yes, sir. Q On that ground? A Yes, sir. Q What educational qualifications do you refer to? A The American Board qualifications as recommended by the Joint Commission on Accreditation. Q The American Board of Surgery? A Yes, sir. Q What are those qualifications? A They are set up for a certain approved resident training that he has not fulfilled. Q Do you know how long that training period is? A As I recall, it's approximately five years. Q And this is the qualification which he did not meet? A Yes, sir. Q Are there men on the James Walker staff who perform major surgery who have not fulfilled those educational qualifications? A There are no men on there that I voted for that are on there. All that are there practicing in that manner I have voted against when the occasion arose. q, But there are men on the staff? A I have not been asked to decide on anyone else in that classification. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q Were they on the 3taff before you came to Wilmington? A Yes, sir. Q Are they still on the staff? A As far as I know sane of them are and sane of them are not. Q Are those that are still on the staff still performing surgery at James Walker? A I have never been asked to Judge their qualifications as to whether they could perform. Q I'm not asking you about their qualifications, but whether or not they are still performing surgery at James Walker. A It is not in my power to decide whether they should perform surgery or not. Q Doctor, I'm not asking you whether it is good practice, but whether or not it occurs. A As far as I know they do occasionally perform major surgery, yes, sir. Q Isn't It also generally true that with few exceptions most every white physician in Wilmington has been or is presently on the staff at James Walker? A No, 3ir. There are several notable exceptions. Q How many physicians would you say there are in Wilmington, white physicians, who are not now or have 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 13 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 23 never been on the staff of James Walker? A Some of those that are not now, have been at one time and resigned because they were not approved for some of the privileges they asked for; and I don’t know how many there would be in that class. Q How many in the class of persons who have never been on the staff at James Walker? A At the present time I think they have all left town. I don’t think any of those gentlemen are here any more. Q So you are either on the staff of James Walker or you are not in town? A No, sir. You are on the staff of the hospital in which you choose to practice if you are allowed those privileges. There are several hospitals in town, and some of the physicians have elected to practice at other hospitals. There are several prominent physicians v*ho are not on the staff at James Walker. Q Yea. But you are now referring to physicians who have declined the staff? A Some have not applied, no, sir. Q But I would like for you to name for me, if you will, any white physicians in Wilmington who have never been on the staff at James Walker. Enumerate them if you can, please. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 A I don't think that is in the scope of my knowledge at this time with the exception of one who is now deceased - Dr. Darrow. He was a very prominent physician that did not practice. If he was on the staff, it was purely in an advisory capacity! I don't recall that he ever had patients there. Q He is the only one you can name? A He is the only one that I have had personal association with, yes, sir. Q Did you also oppose the application of Dr, Roane? A No, sir, I did not. Q Did you oppose the application of Dr. Wheeler? A Yes, sir, I did. Q On what grounds? A That he was not a suitably qualified person to be practicing. While his professional qualifications I think were adequate, I did not feel that he was personally the type person who should be on the staff, Q This is a moral consideration? A Yes, sir; and I think the Joint Commission recognizes that as a criterion for selection. Q What was the nature of the consideration? A I don't believe that 1b related to this 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 particular Instance. Q It*s something to do with his character? A Yes, sir. Q But that wasn't the reason you opposed Dr. Eaton? A No, sir. Q As far as you know, Dr. Eaton's character is good? A I have had nothing to Indicate otherwise, no, sir. Q What was it that you had to indicate that Dr. Wheeler's moral character was not good? MR. HOGUE: I object to that. If we go into the character of every doctor on the staff, we will be here for the rest of the year. MR. MELTSNER: I'm just Interested In Dr. Wheeler. A I think it would be sufficient to say that I had personal knowledge of several instances involving Dr. Wheeler that I considered objectionable to his practice. Q You had personal knowledge? A Yes, sir, I did. Q Direct relationship with the events? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 13 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A They were directly related, yes, sir. I think Dr, Eaton is familiar with the direct relationship. He smiled. Apparently he recalls the same thing I do. Q Yet Dr. Wheeler is now on the staff of James Walker? A He was opposed by me, but I'm not alone in selecting the staff of the hospital, sir. Q Why do you think he is on the staff at James Walker? A I don't have any knowledge to make that statement. Q Why would you surmise that he is on the staff? A I don't think that is related to this particular case. Q Did you inform other members of the staff at James Walker of your objection to Dr. Wheeler? A Only if I was asked specifically. Q Were you asked specifically? A Yes, I was on two occasions that I'm sure of. These persons did not have knowledge of this person and they were seeking information, and I have done the same thing seeking knowledge on other physicians or other persons in any elected office. Q But you didn't come forward with the informa tion? 1 2 3 4 3 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 A No, sir, I did not. Q Do you know how many years Dr. Eaton has practiced surgery in this community? A No, sir, I do not. Q Do you know how many years he has been chief of the surgical staff at Community Hospital? A As I recall, there was one year and probably two when I was on the staff there that he was the chief of surgery. Q Have you ever observed Dr.Eaton perform surgery? A No, sir, I have not. Q Have you ever made any attempt to study the charts of operations conducted by Dr. Eaton? A Yes, sir, I have. Q When did you do that? A When I was the secretary of the staff at the Community Hospital. Q Were Dr. Eaton's charts adequate? A Yes, sir. As far as I could tell, the material contained therein was adequate. Q So you rest your negative vote solely on the absence of a certain amount of education? A On the amount of formal training. Q Number of years of formal education? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 A Yea, air. Q Are you aware that the credential8 committee of the hospital passed favorably on Dr. Eaton*a application? A Apparently they would have to pass favorably on it or it would not have been presented to the staff. Q Do you think they were aware of the existence of the by-laws of the hospital? A I have no way to decide that, sir. I was not on the committee, and I do not know of anything that transpired in their meeting relative to this application. Q But apparently you did not give great weight to the decision of the credentials committee that Dr. Eaton’s application was to be approved? A I don't think that is the purpose of the committee, sir. Hiey are not in any way attempting to direct that you accept or reject a person. I think they merely have a set standard in their own mind, and they feel that they fulfill it or they do not. It*s a personal opinion as far as I know. Q You mentioned earlier that you had voted solely because of his lack of formal schooling. Do you know of any other physicians who voted for this reason? A No, sir. I have not discussed the personal vote of the other physicians with them. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q So far as you know, the other physicians could have voted for reasons totally unrelated? A I have no way of knowing why they voted the way they did, sir. Q And they were free to vote any way they wished? A Yes, 3ir, I think that’s the general policy* everyone has his own opinion, to vote one way or the other in his own mind. To the best of my knowledge no one has ever been directed otherwise. Q Do you think this lack of formal education is substantial enough to bar Dr. Eaton from membership on the staff of the new hospital? A It would again depend, as in this case, on exactly what he was requesting that he be allowed to do. Q Did you ever see Dr. Eaton’s application? A No, sir, I don't believe I did. Q On what do you base your view as to what he was seeking? A We were told at the general staff meeting that he had applied for privileges as a general practitioner with a special interest in general surgery. Q Who told you that he was applying? A I do not recall exactly who made the information available to me 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Q Isn’t it true that every member of the courtesy staff is assigned to a certain specialty? A He is assigned to the specialty that he requests or that he is felt best qualified for. They are not assigned indiscriminately. Q Bit men with varying qualifications are assigned to the same specialty staff# isn’t that true? A Most of these assignments had been made at a previous date. It is currently the standard to assign a man in the classification in which he is felt to be best qualified. Q But these previous assignments still exist? A I don’t know that there has been any reason to upset any previous assignments. Q Are you a member of the New Hanover County Medical Society? A Yes# I am. Q Are you aware that in May of this year the society abolished scientific membership? A No# sir, I'm not. Q Are you aware of an all-white restriction on the membership in the society? A No, sir, I'm not. Q Are you aware of an all-white restriction in the by-laws of the James Walker Hospital? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 A No, slrj there is none that I know of. Q Has there ever been one to your knowledge? A Not to my knowledge. Q Would it affect your Judgment that Dr. Eaton should be denied staff membership, if you were informed that he had been refused staff membership in the past on the basis of race? A No, sir, it would not affect my Judgment. Q Would it affect your Judgment if you learned that prior to the adoption of these new educational standards, Dr. Eaton had been refused admission to the medical staff on the basis of race? A No, sir. MR. HOGUE: I didn't understand. Did you say education - educational standards? MR. MELTSNERi Educational standards. MR. HOGUE: Would you read the question? Q (Read by reporter) "Would it affect your Judgment if you learned that prior to the adoption of these new educational standards, Dr, Eaton had been refused admission to the medical staff on the basis of race?" MR. HOGUE: I object to that question. I didn't understand that he had applied before 1952. That is the basis of my objection. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MELTSNER: I merely asked if he would change his view if that were the case. MR. HOGUE: It's a purely hypothetical question. BY MR. MELTS NER: Q Are you familiar with the Joint Committee on Accreditation? A In certain phases, yes, sir. q Are you familiar with the recommendation of the committee that In no event should a hospital base staff privileges solely on formal training? A That is simply a recommendation and is not binding on either the hospital or the staff. Q Are you familiar with their recommendation that privileges should be based on ability and experience and proven skill in the operating room? A Yes, sir. Q Wouldn't you think that Dr. Eaton might possibly have some of that ability and experience if he were a surgeon here for twenty-two years? A I don't think the length of tenure of the occupation would affect that one way or the other. I have known - and I'm sure you have - persons of long-standing practice in many fields that have improved rapidly or have shown no improvement at all over the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 years, and the length of time in service I don’t think is related at all to their ability. Q Bit you have never investigated Dr. Eaton's actual ability in the operating room, have you? A Not specifically; only in generalities, the general information contained in his charts and in various discussions of his patients and their management in certain specific instances as they were brought up in various meetings of the staff of Community Hospital. Q And the basis of your decision to oppose his application was the fact that he did not have this four or five years of schooling? A No, sir; that he was not suitably qualified for the privileges that he was requesting that he be allowed. He made no specific request in there, and it was implied, or it was interpreted by me that he would request privileges in all phases of general surgery. Q Would you support him if he only wanted to be placed on the courtesy staff? A Well now, again you have to go back to the original discussion where I requested that the courtesy staff as such be classified according to a particular phase of it. There is nothing anywhere that is set up as "courtesy staff privileges"; they must be confined to some certain phase of treatment or sane certain phase 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 of the privileges of a hospital or of anything as far as that goes. Q Well, there are general practitioners on the staff, aren't there? A Yes, sir. And they have not requested any blanket privileges in any particular field. Most of them are limited, and their work is supervised. Q Would you support Dr. Eaton's application if he applied to be treated the same way a general practitioner is treated? A Yes, sir, I would. Q And this educational standard makes the difference--- A It does in the-- Q ---considering that he applied for some surgical privilege? A Yes, sir. Were he requesting limited privileges in certain specific fields or delineating exactly what he felt, then that particular Instance would be considered separately. Q He could have requested limited privileges in surgery; isn't that correct? A Yes, sir. q Isn't it true that if a man is placed on a staff and his work is found not up to par that his 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 privileges can be suspended? Isn't that true? A lftat is not a function of the staff of the hospital. Q Who does it? A To the best of my knowledge the granting or the taking of privileges is a function of the Board of Managers; and the staff is only requested, as I interpret this thing, to give advice as to whether they feel that this should be done or they feel this particular action should be taken. Q Now, Doctor, I want to be perfectly clear about this. I'm talking about a man who applies and he is put on a specialty staff and the other members of that staff decide that his actual performance is not up to the standards of the hospital, can his privileges be limited? A Not by the staff. Only if requested. Hie limitation must— Q I understand they can request such a suspension? A Yes, sir, to the best of my knowledge they can request it, but the actual limitation is entirely up to the Board of Managers of the hospital. Q Isn't that also true about admission to the staff in the first place? A As far as I know that is also true about 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 admission to the staff in the first place. MR. MELTSNER: I have no further questions. MR. HOGUE: I have no questions. Signature of Witness: L A W Y E R ’ S N O T E S P age L ine • 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 It-M R . R O B E R T jQr. M A R T I N , having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT-EXAMINATION BY MR. MELTSNER; Q Will you state your name, please. A Robert *€h?ay Martin. Q What is your ocoupation? A I'm Director of James Walker Hospital. Q How long have you held that position? A Approximately three and one-half years. Q What was your position before you became director of the hospital? A I was Assistant Director of James Walker Hospital. Q And how long did you hold that position? A Approximately two years, a little less than two years prior to that• Q When you were assistant director, what was the name of the director? A The name of the director at that time was Emory N. Grubbs. Q Would you briefly describe your educational background for me? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A I am a college graduate of a four-year college. My background in college is in the area of Business Administration. I have completed a two-year postgraduate course in training for hospital administration; and I have had some eleven years in active hospital administra tion work. Q What other hospitals have you worked with? A I have worked with Rex Hospital in Raleigh, North Carolina; I have been on the staff of the North Carolina Medical-Care Commission in Raleigh, North Carolina, in the capacity of Assistant Hospital Administra tive Consultant. Q What years were you on the staff of the Medical-Care Commission? A 1955 to November of 1956. Q Isn*t the Commission that governmental body which administers the Hill-Burton Act in North Carolina? A That is correct. Q What was the name of the college you attended? A I graduated from Wake Forest College. Q Where did you take your postgraduate work? A In Rex Hospital, Raleigh, a hospital that conducted this program in hospital administration. Q Is it a degree program? A It’s a preceptorship type of program. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q In other words, you are certified but no degree is issued? A There's no formal Master's Degree. A certificat< is awarded upon successful completion of this two-year postgraduate program. It is a recognized program in the field of hospital administration. Q You said, I believe, that your major In college was Business Administration? A That's right. Q What are your duties as administrator or directoj of the hospital? A I am the hospital's employed officer to carry out the duties of the hospital, to carry out the policies of the Board of Managers and to coordinate the activities within the hospital to conform with those policies. Q Do you sit on the Board of Managers? A No, I have no official position on the board except to serve as secretary to the Board of Managers. Q You take the minutes of the meetings of the board? A I do take the minutes. Q Do you have any official position on the medical staff of the hospital? A No. Q Do you attend its meetings? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 l6 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Generally I do attend Its meetings. Q You have no vote on medical staff affairs; Isn’t that correct? A No, I do not have a vote. Q Do you make recommendations as to hospital policy which are transmitted to the board? A Sometimes I do. Q What recommendations have you made this year, 1965, that you can think of? A I have recommended many purchases of equipment, recommended matters pertaining to finances in the area of employees’ salaries. I'm not sure of others. Q, Have you made any recommendation this year concerning the distribution of Negro nurses throughout the hospital? A No. Q Isn't it true that earlier this year you received a communication from a former director of this hospital telling you that he thought it was in the best interest of the hospital for Negro nurses to be dis tributed throughout the hospital? A I don't know. Q In other words, the former director may have made such a recommendation to you? A A former director? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Mr. Grubbs I believe you said his name was. A Would you repeat your question on that? Q Did Mr. Grubbs recommend in 1965 that you distribute Negro nurses throughout the whole hospital? A I do not recall his having made any recommendations. Q Of any kind? A Not of any kind pertaining to this. Q What is Mr. Grubbs’ official position now as best you understand it? A I understand he has been retained as the Director of the New Hanover Memorial Hospital. Q He is still here in Wilmington? A Yes. Q Did you have harmonious relations with him when he was your superior? A I think so. Q Tell me how soon after the federal court order of last August Negro patients were moved into the main hospital? A I don’t recall how soon, but I do know that there were some Negro patients in the main hospital prior to that. But essentially it followed soon after. Q Would you describe for me what this former colored ward or wing looks like? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ll A The wing that you refer to is a building in very close proximity to the main hospital, but is separated; built many years ago, is old as are other parts of the main hospital* Q Is it older than other parts of the hospital? A No and yes. There have been several additions to the hospital. It's older than some and younger than others. Q When do you estimate it was constructed? A Probably between 1915 and 1920. Q Are there any operating room facilities in this wing? A No. Q How far is it from the main building? A Approximately fifteen feet. Q Is this fifteen feet outdoors, or is there a covered passageway? A No passageway. Q In other words, if you want to go from this wing to the main building, you go outdoors? A That's correct. Q Negro patients who were taken to surgery, then, were taken outdoors to get to the operating room? A Yes. Q And this was true until the change in policy? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 l6 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Y e a . Q Are there any Negroes who are still in that section of the hospital? A Yes. Q Approximately how many? A I don't know; I'm not sure. Ehe count may vary from day to day. On an average maybe twenty to thirty. Q How many beds are there in that section? A About thirty-five. Q How many white patients are in that wing today? A I don't know. Q '//hat is your best estimate? A I don't know. There may be a few over there today; I haven't checked it. Q Who would know? A Who would know? Q Who would know? A Whoever walked through there. If you walked through and took a physical count, then you might know. Q Don't you keep account of how many patients you assign to that wing? A I know how many patients are in that wing; I do not know whether they are white or whether they are Negro, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 13 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q You told me there were twenty to thirty patients who were Negroes and about thirty-five beds, and I am wondering about how many of the remaining beds are filled by white persons. A I don't know. Q is the wing usually filled to capacity? A The occupancy Is usually quite full, yes. Q Pardon me ? A Yes, the occupancy usually means that this wing is quite full. Q How many beds are there in the rest of the hospital? A In the rest of the hospital there would be approximately 240 beds. q So prior to the change in policy, Negroes were restricted to 35 beds? A By and large, yes. Q What proportion of your patient load is white? A I don't know what proportion. Q Do you have any Idea what it was in 1964? A No, I don't recall. Q To your knowledge, now, how many whites have been assigned to this formerly colored wing? A I don't recall how many would have been assigned 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 I don't know who — or where the assignments are made. This is done by the admissions office; it has been instructed to admit patients according to facilities available in regard to financial ability to pay. So I don't know that, Q You have never been instructed to make sure that the admissions are to place people without regard to race? A Yes, Q Now, I ask you again: to your knowledge how many whites have been assigned to this formerly colored wing? A I don't recall, Q Let's come to the point, Mr, Martin. Isn't it true that, Just as it was in the past, the predominant number or the predominant race which shows up in this wing is the Negro race? The majority of patients in that wing are Negroes; is that not correct? A I think so. Q Are more Negroes treated at your hospital than whites? A No. Q How do you account for the fact that Negroes still seem to be the majority in this other wing - custom? 1 2 3 4 3 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Well, they are assigned and dispersed throughout the hospital, the main hospital, on the other floors, practically every floor. Q How many floors are there In the hospital? A Three. Ihree levels. Q Are beds on all three of these floors? A Yes. Q Are there more whites or Negroes on the first floor? A I don’t laiow. It may vary from day to day depending on the census. Q Is the census kept by race? A No. But if I were to count the race at any particular day, it may be a figure that would make one race a higher percentage than another. Q, Have you ever counted the races? A No. Q Did you make any attempt to change the racial policy of the hospital prior to August of 1964? A No. Q Will you state to me everything that you have done to make sure that the policy has changed with respect to Negro patients and nurses? A I have tried to see that the policies of the governing board have been carried out to the best of my 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ability to see that there is no discrimination because of any race or creed or color or any other factor of that nature. Q Have you issued any directives to that effect in the last two months? A I don't believe that I have in the last two months. Q Have you ever seen more than five white patients in the wing? MR. HOQUE: Objection to that. A Which wing? Q In the former Negro wing. A I don't recall that I have, but I couldn't say whether there was more or less than five; I don't re call. Q You don't recall having seen it? A No. Q What role, if any, do you play when the medical staff of the hospital considers an application for courtesy staff membership? A I don't play any role in their consideration of an applicant. Q What role, if any, do you play in the considera tion of an applicant by the Board of Managers? A To serve as the medium by which the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 is transferred from the staff to the governing body. Q You report the recommendation of the staff to the board? A Correct. Q Do you also report the instructions or con clusions of the board to the staff? A Yes. Q When do you do that? A I didn't hear that. Q When do you do that? A Within a reasonable time following such action. Q Do you speak to each staff member individually, or do you put an announcement in the hospital bulletin, or do you make an announcement at the meeting? A No. Such transmitting of this communication would be done through channels to the president of the medical staff. Q I see. So you didn't have any direct connection with the staff's response to the request of the board that it vote again on Dr. Eaton's application? A No. Q Do you know what the response of the staff was? A Yes, I know what the response was by virtue of 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 its communication to the board through me so stating the results. Q What was the attitude of most of the staff members whom you had come in contact with; were they very unhappy about this second vote? A I don't know. MR. MELTSNER: I have no further questions. MR. HOGUE: I have no questions of Mr, Martin at this time. Signature of Witness: L A W Y E R ’ S N O T E S P age L ine 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 D R , W I L L I A M H. W E I N E L J R ., having been duly sworn, testified as follows; DIRECT-EXAMINATION BY MR. MELTSNER: Q Will you state your full name and medical specialty, Doctor. A William Harvey Weinel Jr. I am an obstetrician and gynecologist. Q How long have you been practicing here in Wilmington? A Seven years July the 7th of this year. Q Walker? How long have you been on the staff of James A I can’t tell you precisely, but I applied for the courtesy staff just prior to moving here, and was accepted to the attending staff some two years later. Q Hospital? Are you also on the staff at Community A I am not. Q Hospital? Have you ever been on the staff at Community A I have. Q Do you remember in December of 1964 and again in February of 1965 receiving ballots for you as a staff member to vote on the application for courtesy staff membership of Dr. Hubert Eaton? A I remember receiving the ballots; the dates I do not. Q What did you do with those ballots? A I voted. Q Did you return the ballot in both instances? A Ye3. q How did you vote on the first occasion? A On the first occasion? I voted no. Q How did you vote on the second occasion? A I think the second ballot was a secret ballot. Q Why don't you consider the first ballot secret? A According to my understanding, the second ballot was secret and the first wa3 not. Q On what do you base your understanding that the first ballot was not secret? A Interpretation of the by-laws. Q You interpret the by-laws to mean that the first ballot was not a secret one? A I must say I didn't look them up. I was told this by another member of the staff. Q Had you voted prior to this time on other 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 applications for courtesy staff membership? A I don't recall. Q You don't recall ever voting on a doctor's application for courtesy staff membership? A I don't recall whether I ever voted on a member prior to this or not. Q As far as you recall, this occasion on Dr. Eaton was the first time you voted? A I don't recall whether I voted on another per son prior to this or not. Q Did you receive ballots prior to this? A I don't know. Q Are you aware that the letter of transmittal of the ballots states something to the effect that, "As usual any ballot not received within seven days will be considered an affirmative vote for the applicant '? A 1 am aware of that. Q So then, you cast a number of affirmative votes in the months and years prior to Dr. Eaton's application by not returning the ballots to the staff; is that correct? A No, that is not what you asked me. Q Well, would you clarify it for me? I'm not too sure. A All right. You asked me if I ever received any 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ballots prior to the dates that you gave me, and I don't recall whether I did or didn't. Now, I know that there have been several people who have come into this town, but I don't remember the exact dates that they did. Uiat's what I am trying to tell you. Q Did anyone come into the town and get placed on the James Walker staff prior to December of 1964? A Well, I would have to look up the record to find out, but I think there has been one man that I can recall and possibly another one. Q How did you mark the ballot which you returned in February or sometime close to February of 1965? A For whom? Q How did you mark the ballot which you caBt for Dr. Eaton's application in February of 1965? A Well, I understand that was a secret ballot, and so far as I am concerned it will remain so. q Do you decline to tell me how you voted? A I do. Q Do you also decline to tell me the reason you voted as you voted? A No. Q You will tell me the reason? A Yes. Q What was the reason? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 A Well, to begin with, his race or color had nothing to do with the particular way I voted, Q Why do you bring up race and color, Dpctor? 'VU't-JLs *■ A Q A Q Because I think that's what you are After; Why do you think that? Why shouldn't I? Does it have something to do with the history of his lawsuit? A Well, it does, according to what I read in the papers. q Does it have something to do with the litigation in which Dr. Eaton has been involved? A What litigation? q I»m asking you, sir, whether or not it has anything to do with litigation which Dr. Eaton has been involved in? A I don't know. Q Would you kindly continue to tell me your reason for casting your ballots? A Well, yes. I was in favor of the new hospital in this town. Before I came here or at the time that I was making plans to move to Wilmington, there was under consideration a bond issue here for building a new hospital; this fell through, and subsequently when I came to town I felt that the need of a new hospital in this 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 li 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 area was great, and I worked to help achieve this. And I understand that Dr, Eaton opposed a new hospital, and I think that was detrimental to the town. Q This vote on the new hospital was taken before you came to Wilmington? A No. The first bond issue was voted down before I came to Wilmingtonj the subsequent bond issue has been since I have been here. Q And Dr, Eaton's opposition to the new hospital was the determining factor in your vote; is that it? A That's one of the major factors. Q Well, will you tell me the minor factors? A Well, I do not know Dr. Eaton personally. I think I have seen Dr. Eaton previously, but I don't know him; and the other factors have been based on opinions given to me by people who do know this gentleman. Q Will you state their names, please? A No. Q Why won't you tell me their names? A I don't want to incriminate anybody else in my testimony. Q You regard it as incriminating? A Well, maybe that was a poor choice of words, but maybe they don't want me to give their names. Q When you came to Wilmington, Doctor, were you 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 l6 17 informed that one of the major reasons given by Dr. Eaton and the other members of the Negro community in opposing this new hospital was their fear of the treatment they and Negro patients would be afforded? A Well, before I came to Wilmington, I never had heard of Dr. Eaton, and I wasn’t aware of the fact that there was any problem there or anywhere. I was told by some people prior to coming here that there were sane facets of the medical community that were not too desirable, but they didn't elaborate. Q Well, after you came, did you have an opportunity to observe a different manner of treatment accorded to Negro patients than to whites at James Walker Hospital? A A different manner of treatment, no. Q Were Negro patients placed in that thirty-five or so bed wing of the hospital? A I didn't hear the last. Q Weren't Negro patients placed in a thirty-five or so bed wing of the hospital? A Uiat's true. Q Were there any Negro physicians on the staff of the hospital at that time? A No. Q Were there any Negro physicians who were members 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 of the New Hanover County Medical Society at that time? A Not to my knowledge. Q Now, you mentioned some minor matters, opinions, that you heard from others. Opinions about what? A Fee splitting for one thing. Q Are you aware that the credentials committee of the hospital passed favorably on Dr. Eaton's application? A Well, I assume that the application was re viewed prior to being put out for ballot. Q So they investigated his character at that time? A I don't know what investigation they did. Q You don't know what the credentials committee does? A No, I know what the credentials committee is supposed to do. Q Are they supposed to investigate a man's ethics? A They are supposed to investigate his training; and I don't know whether there is any particular stipula tion as to investigating his ethics or how they do so. Q You wouldn't vote to refuse a man staff membership on the basis of rumors of fee splitting which took place before you came to Wilmington, would you? A That*s tough. I don't know. One Isolated instance) is that what you are assuming? MR. MELTS NER: Please read the question. Q (Read by reporter) "You wouldn't vote to refuse a man staff membership on the basis of rumors of fee splitting which took place before you came to Wilmington, would you?" A I ask you: One isolated instance? Q Doctor, why don't you Just answer the question as best you can, qualifying it as you wish. A If he made a general practice of this, I would. Q Now, let me ask you this: Fee splitting - would you define it for me? A Well, fee splitting - in my own terms and as I interpret what the American College of Surgeons says about it - is the return of a portion of a fee to a referring physician because of the referral. q There is nothing criminal about this, is there, to your knowledge? A I wouldn't think so. Q It's something which violates the regulations of the county medical society, as I understand it) is that correct? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Well, it's frowned on by the American College of Surgeons. I don’t know whether there is any particular stipulation in the county medical society about it or not. \ . r Q Are you a member of the American College of Surgeons? A I am. Well, X will have to qualify that* I will be Inducted in the American College of Surgeons in October. I have been accepted. Q Well, how about physicians who are not or won't be members of the American College of Surgeons; how are they afx*ected by the American College of Surgeons' view about fee splitting? A Nobody is directly affected by it. Xhere's no law about it. But our various medical societies, the American College of Surgeons being one of them, set some of the ethics by which we practice. Q !Uxe New Hanover and others? A Xhe country over, including Canada and some of our other neighboring countries. Q What is the New Hanover's policy about fee splitting? A Well, I think it's frowned on. Q Do you think it's a common practice despite this? 1 2 3 4 3 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 l6 17 18 19 20 21 A I do not. Q Do you think there are many physicians who are on the staff of James Walker now or who have been on the staff in the past who split fees? A Not to my knowledge. Q If evidence were presented to you that they had, would you feel this would be grounds for their removal from the staff? A I think they should be reprimanded. Q Should they be removed from the staff? A lhat's not up to me to decide. If I were going to vote on them, if they were new applicants, I would consider it in my vote. Q But you wouldn't consider it in a vote to remove them? A I don't believe I have a vote to remove them. Q Would you be in favor of instituting suspension of privileges against these men if it were shown that they had split fees? A I said I thought they ought to be reprimanded. Q What do you mean by '‘reprimanded'1? A Well, they should be told by the medical governing body of the hospital that this is not an accepted practice, and then that the body should take whatever action they see fit, which is not up to me to 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 decide Q Did you ever contact Dr. Eaton and ask him whether these rumors were true or not ? A No. Q Why didn't you? A Why should I? MR. MELTSNER: I have nothing else. CROSS-EXAMINAH ON BY MR. HOGUE: Q Doctor, did any member of the Board of Managers of the hospital or its director, Mr. Martin, in any way influence your vote on the second ballot with regard to Dr. Eaton? A No. Q Did they discuss it with you at all? A No. q Did the attorney for the board discuss it with you? A No. Q Have I ever discussed this matter with you at all? A No. Q Isn't it true, Doctor, that three Negro 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 physicians have been admitted to the staff of James Walker Memorial Hospital since August of 1964? A Biat's true. Q And two of them are presently serving on the staff? A Yes. Q And one of them, I believe, has since died? A I believe so. Q Without respect to which way you voted on the second ballot, would you say that your vote was based on the general reputation of Dr. Eaton in the community? A I think so. MR. HOGUE: No further questions, RE DIRE C T-EXAMINATION BY MR. MELTSNER: Q Now, Doctor, you said that your vote was based on Dr. Eaton's general reputation in the community. Did you talk to any Negroes about Dr. Eaton? A About Dr. Eaton, himself? Q That's correct, A No. Q You know nothing of his reputation in the Negro community, then; isn't that correct? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 A I didn't say that. Q Do you know anything of Dr. Eaton's reputation in the Negro community here? A Yes. Q What is his reputation? A It's hard to define. But I have quite a few Negro patients, and they communicate with me; and through these patients I have gained a general impression as to how other members of his community view Dr. Eaton. Q How many Negro patients do you think you have spoken to? A I don't know. Q Your best estimate. A Well, I see a lot of patients. Q Would you give me some of their names? A I couldn't. Q Pardon me ? A I could not. Q Did you oppose Dr. Roane for membership on the staff? A No. Q Did you oppose Dr. Gray? A No. Q Did you oppose Dr. Wheeler? A No. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Q In your mind Dr. Eaton is primarily responsible for the opposition to the new hospital? A I didn't say "primarily responsible." I said he opposed it. Q You don’t think Dr. Roane opposed it? A I don't think he advocated it strongly. Q You don't think he advocated the hospital strongly, or you don't think he opposed it strongly? A I don't think he took as active a part in it. Q Would the same be true as to Dr. Gray? A Yes. Q How about Dr. Wheeler? A I don't think he did either. Q But Dr. Eaton did? A But I think that Dr. Wheeler was-^for the new hospital. Q A Dr. Eaton, then, In his community was the leader of the opposition MR. MELTSNER: I have nothing else. MR. HOGUE: You may come down. Signature of Witness: L A W Y E R ’ S N O T E S P age L in e V 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 l6 17 18 19 20 21 D R . J A M E S T I D L E R, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT-EXAMINATION BY MR. MELTSNERi Q Would you state your full name and medical specialty. Doctor. A James Tidier, Internal Medicine. Q How long have you been practicing in Wilmington, Doctor? A Since 1949. Q How long have you been on the staff at James Walker Hospital? A Approximately the same length of time. Q Are you or have you ever been on the staff at Community Hospital? A No, I have not. Q Do you recall voting at the end of last year and the beginning of this year on Dr. Hubert Eaton's application for Btaff membership at James Walker? A I remember the occasion, yes. Q Did you vote on those occasions? A Yes, I think so. Q Did you return the ballot on those occasions? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 A I don’t really recall. Q How did you vote on the first occasion? A Well, I feel that this is rather a personal, private affair, and I really don't think I care to answer that. Q You decline to answer? A I would rather not. Q Doctor, I'm Bure you would rather not. But I will have to ask you again. If you do not wish to answer, I wish you would say it without qualification. How did you vote on this first occasion? A I do not wish to answer. Q How did you vote on the second occasion? A I do not wish to answer. Q What were your reasons for voting for or against Dr. Eaton on the first occasion? A Ihat's hard to answer. Just general knowledge and information and impressions that I had received. Q No, Doctor. For what reasons did you vote for or against him? A I don't recall; I can't really say. Q Can you answer that question without revealing how you voted? A No, I don't suppose I could. Q Your answer is you suppose you couldn't? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 13 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Ask the question again. Reasons for or against? How did your question go? THE FOLLOWING READ BY REPORTER: "Q What were your reasons for voting for or against Dr. Eaton on the first occasion?” MR, MELTSNER: I want you to read the last question which was with respect to do you think you can answer that. ”Q Can you answer that question without revealing how you voted? "A No, I don't suppose I could. ”Q Your answer is you suppose you couldn't?" BY MR. MELTSNER: Q Let me withdraw the last question. Just let me state my understanding of what you said. You said that you couldn't state the reasons you voted for or against him without revealing the way you voted for or against him? A Well, it's a complicated question. I'm Just not sure whether I can answer it at all. It leads down several paths that I don't see how there Is any one answer to, Q Do you think, Doctor, that the reason a physician votes for or against an applicant is a private matter? A I think how he votes Is a private matter; I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 13 don't think the reason is, but I don't think we can always state categorically what our reasons are. Q Are you unable to state categorically what your reasons are? A Yes, I am unable to. Q Are you aware that the credentials committee of the medical staff acted favorably on Dr. Eaton's application? A Yes, or else it would not have come up for a vote. Q Isn't this endorsement of his background and his competence as a physician? A It's my understanding it is merely an endorse- ment of his basic medical education,,, tLo^e. Ttsle- Q But you did not consider the credentials committee report in voting? A I always do, yes. Q You always consider it? A I would say so. Q Do you give great weight to the recommendation of the committee? A Well, I don't know what you mean by "great weight"; that's a relative term, I give certainly some weight to it. As I say, I believe we don't even vote on such a case unless the credentials committee passes it 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 on for a vote Q, Do you know of any standards for medical staff admission which are set forth in the hospital by-laws' rules and regulations? A Standards set forth in the by-laws? I know there are standards, yes. Q Do you know of any a3ide from those in the by-laws? A Q A Yes. What are those? 'Diose would be the opinion that the individual Q 'Riese aren't written standards; these are individual standards you are referring to now? A Veil, they are more or less written; they are implied, certainly, in the by-laws. Q If they are not written down anyplace, how do you direct them? A I'm not that familiar with the exact wording of the by-laws; all I know is In a general way what they say. Q My question now is directed to standards which exist aside from those which are In the by-laws. Are there any other standards, written standards, which you know of which apply to staff admission? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 li 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 have of the reputation of an individual are not written down. Again, I think they are implied in the by-laws, but I don't know that they are written in black and white. q So any additional standards which you would feel apply are those implied in the by-laws? A Right. q Uiere is nothing else you can direct me to? A I don't know that I can direct you to anything. As I say, I'm not familiar with the exact wording of the by-laws regarding this; all I know is in general. Q When is the last time you read the by-laws? A I don't know. Q Have you ever read them? A Yes, sir. Q At the time you applied for the staff? A I undoubtedly did then. Q Have you read them through since? A I believe I have. q Give me your best idea when you did so the last time? A It would be merely a guess. I don't see how I can do that. Q Can't you guess? A Well, I suppose general impressions that people 1 2 3 4 3 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 A Well, I would say within the last two or three years would be the best guess I could give. MR. MELTSNER: I have no further questions. MR. HOGUE: I have no questions. Signature of Witness: L A W Y E R S N O T E S P a g e L in e % 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA COUNTY OF WAKE SS I, Wilda Y. Hauer, a Notary Public in and for the State of North Carolina at Large, hereby certify that the foregoing witnesses were duly sworn by me prior to giving testimony in the foregoing cause; That the testimony of said witnesses was taken by me in stenotypy and also by means of electronic recording and thereafter transcribed and reduced to typewriting under my supervision and direction; That thereafter the testimony of each witness was submitted to him for reading, correcting, and signing, and returned to me for filing; That the foregoing 336 pages contain a full, true and correct record and transcription of all interrogatories propounded to each witness and of the answers given by him; I further certify that I am an Official Court Reporter for the United States District Court, Eastern District of North Carolina, am not related by blood or marriage to any of the parties, am not an employee or agent of any of the parties, nor am I interested directly or indirectly in the event of said action. Witness my hand and seal this 25th day of August, 1965. i w m i f l ---------------- Vsy commission expires May 28, 1966.