NAACP v. Thompson Transcript of Record Vol. III
Public Court Documents
September 24, 1964
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. NAACP v. Thompson Transcript of Record Vol. III, 1964. 121fe915-bf9a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/595674af-9710-4ca8-b05c-03aee2638f4e/naacp-v-thompson-transcript-of-record-vol-iii. Accessed July 22, 2025.
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Transcript of Record
UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FIFTH CIRCUIT
NO. 2 1 7 4 1
NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT
OF COLORED PEOPLE, ET AL,
VS .
ALLEN THOMPSON, MAYOR OF THE CITY OF
JACKSON, MISSISSIPPI , ET AL,
VOLUME I I I
P a g e s 574 t h r o u g h 871
APPELLANTS
APPELLEES
( A p p e a l f r o m t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s D i s t r i c t C o u r t
f o r t h e S o u t h e r n D i s t r i c t o f M i s s i s s i p p i )
I N D__ E X ( C o n t i n u e d )
VOLUME I I I
TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED OF TRIAL, FEBRUARY 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 ,
2 7 , 2 8 , 1964
D i r . Cr . R e d i r .
M i s s S h i r l e y C a t c h i n g s 574 581
S h i r l e y D o l o r e s B a i l y 597 603 623
B e n n i e L. C a t c h i n g s 629 637
TUESDAY, FEB. 4 , 1 9 6 4
J immy L ee B e l l 648 652 6 56
Do r o t hy R u t h B r a c e y 656 670 684
E d d i e J e an Thomas 684 695 716
H a t t i e P a l m e r 721 732 739
M a t t i e B i v i n s D e n n i s 743 748 757
T h e r e s a E a s l e y 758 762
A l f o n s o L e w i s 771 778 795
D o r i s A n n e t t e E r s k i n e 797 804 817
H e z e k i a h W a t k i n s 824 835 852
A r v e n e Lee Adams 856
i v .
P a g e
574
648
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(S, Catchings, Dr)
MISS SHIRLEY CATCHINGS
b e i n g c a l l e d a s a w i t n e s s by t h e p l a i n t i f f a n d a f t e r f i r s t
h a v i n g b e e n d u l y s w o r n , t e s t i f i e d a s f o l l o w s :
DIRECT EXAMINATION
MR. BELL:
Q. W i l l y o u s t a t e y o u r name a n d a d d r e s s , p l e a s e ?
A. S h i r l e y C a t c h i n g s , 715 H a y e s S t r e e t , J a c k s o n ,
M i s s i s s i p p i .
Q. What i s y o u r a g e ?
A . F i f t e e n .
Q. How l o n g h a v e y o u l i v e d i n J a c k s o n ?
A A l l o f my l i f e .
Q. What i s y o u r r a c e ?
A . N e g ro .
Q, A r e y o u i n s c h o o l ?
A . Y e s , I a m .
Q. What g r a d e ?
A. T e n t h .
Q. Have y o u e v e r b e e n a r r e s t ed
a g a , i n s t r a c i a l d i s c r i m i n a t i o n ?
A. Y e s , I ha ve .
Q. When w e r e yo u a r r e s t e d ?
A. I wa s a r r e s t e d May 3 1 , J u n e
Q. Now a s t o t h e t i m e when y o u
3 1 , w h a t h a p p e n e d on t h a t d a t e ?
w h i l e t a k i n g p a r t i n
1 a n d J u n e 1 2 .
w e r e a r r e s t e d on May
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A. We w e r e w a l k i n g down F a r i s h S t r e e t , two a b r e a s t , a t
a r m ’ s l e n g t h a n d when we g o t two b l o c k s , I t h i n k i t w a s , we w e r e
s t o p p e d by a l i n e o f p o l i c e m e n . I t was two l i n e s o f p o l i c e m e n
a n d t h e p o l i c e m e n t o o k o u r f l a g s a way f r o m us a n d b r o k e t h e m up
a n d t h e c h i l d r e n i n t h e b a c k o f t h e l i n e t h e y s t a r t e d a c r o s s t h e
s t r e e t down a n a l l e y so we — t h e N e g r o e s t o w a r d t h e f r o n t
t u r n e d a r o u n d a n d f o l l o w e d t h e m a n d when we g o t down t h e a l l e y ,
w e l l , t h e p o l i c e m e n w e r e down t h e r e so we w e r e t u r n e d b a c k a r o u n d
o u t o f t h e a l l e y a n d when we w e r e t u r n i n g a r o u n d t h e y h a d a
g a r b a g e t r u c k t h e r e w h i c h h a d b e e n p r e v i o u s l y u s e d t h a t d a y .
Q. Now j u s t a s e c o n d , w h e r e was t h i s g r o u p g o i n g when
y o u w e r e w a l k i n g down F a r i s h S t r e e t ?
A. We w e r e g o i n g up t o C a p i t o l S t r e e t .
Q. Wer e y o u i n t h e s t r e e t o r on t h e s i d e w a l k ?
A. We w e r e on t h e s i d e w a l k .
Q. And y o u s a y y o u w e r e w a l k i n g two by t w o ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. And d i d you h a v e a n y s i g n w i t h y o u — f l a g o r -
A. Y e s , we h a d A m e r i c a n f l a g s .
Q. What was t h e p u r p o s e o f w a l k i n g down F a r i s h
t o w a r d C a p i t o l .
A . W e l l , we w e r e p r o t e s t i n g a g a i n s t s e g r e g a t i o n .
Q. Wh er e d i d y o u i n t e n d t o go?
A. We w e r e g o i n g on C a p i t o l S t r e e t .
Q. Do y o u know who w a s t h e l e a d e r o f y o u r p r o t e s t ?
_______________________________________________________ :__(£ . Catchinga^-Drj.
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(S. Catchings. Dr)
A. Who was l e a d i n g t h e g r o u p a t t h a t t i m e ? W e l l , y o u
mean t h e o n e t h a t was i n f r o n t o f t h e g r o u p .
Q. T h a t ’ s r i g h t . .
A. Mr . L u d l e . T h a t i s t h e o n l y p e r s o n I r e m e m b e r , y o u
know — i t was mo r e c h i l d r e n up t h e r e w i t h h i m .
Q. A l l r i g h t , now w e r e y o u a r r e s t e d on t h a t o c c a s i o n ?
A . Y e s , I v n s .
Q. Now t e l l w h a t h a p p e n e d t o y o u a f t e r y o u w e r e
a r r e s t e d .
A. W e l l , a f t e r I was a r r e s t e d , my m o t h e r came down t o
g e t me, t h a t w as t h a t n i g h t . I d i d n ’ t go w i t h h e r t h a t n i g h t
so s h e came h a c k t h e n e x t m o r n i n g , w h i c h was S a t u r d a y m o r n i n g ,
a n d —~
Q. W h e r e d i d t h e y t a k e y o u ?
A. The F a i r g r o u n d s .
Q. And how w e r e yo u t a k e n ?
A. I n a g a r b a g e t r u c k .
Q. Wer e o t h e r p e o p l e i n t h e t r u c k w i t h y o u ?
A. Y e s , t h e r e w a s .
Q. Can y o u d e s c r i b e t h e c o n d i t i o n o f t h e g a r b a g e
t r u c k ?
A. I t h a d d i r t y w a t e r , a n d i t was r e a l d i r t y a n d i t
was v e r y h o t a n d we w e r e c l o s e d i n e n t i r e l y , w a s n ’ t y o u know
a n y a i r o r a n y t h i n g g e t t i n g i n .
Q. Wou l d y o u d e s c r i b e t h e t r i p t o t h e f a i r g r o u n d s ?
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(S. Cat c h i n a s , Dr)
A. I t was r o u g h . The d r i v e r s t a r t e d up a n d t h e n
s t o p p e d r e a l f a s t a n d , y o u know, t h r e w a l l o f u s t o w a r d t h e
f r o n t , a n d he we t o o k a l o n g r o u t e t h e n . I t t o o k u s a l o n g
t i m e t o g e t t h e r e a n d when we s t a r t e d o f f a g a i n , w e l l he s t o p p e d
a n d , y o u know, t r i e d t o c a t c h u s o f f g u a r d a g a i n , yo u know,
m a k i n g u s f a l l .
Q. Now y o u w e r e t a k e n t o t h e f a i r g r o u n d s , when w e r e
y o u r e l e a s e d ?
A. I was r e l e a s e d t h a t S a t u r d a y .
Q. What d a y w e r e you a r r e s t e d ?
A . May 3 1 s t .
Q. Was t h a t t h e d a y b e f o r e ~~ was t h a t F r i d a y ?
A, T h a t was t h a t F r i d a y when t h e y h a d t h e m a r c h down
F a r i sh S t r e e t .
Q. Now, w i l l yo u d e s c r i b e t h e c i r c u m s t a n c e s o f y o u r
r e l e a s e , how y o u came t o b e r e l e a s e d a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h a t
t i m e ?
A. When my m o t h e r came down t o g e t me, w e l l , s h e
f i r s t came i n s h e s a i d t h a t —• s h e was t a l k i n g f i r s t a n d s he
s t a r t e d o v e r —* s h e l e f t o u t o f t h e s t o c k a d e w h e r e t h e g i r l s
w e r e a n d w e n t o v e r t h e r e w h e r e t h e b o y s w e r e a n d when s he came
b a c k , w e l l , s h e t o l d me t h a t t h e o f f i c e r a s k e d h e r why d i d n ’ t
I come o u t w i t h h e r a n d s h e t o l d h i m t h a t I w a s n ’ t r e a d y t o go
o u t , so h e t o l d h e r t o , y o u kno w, go on a n d b r i n g me b a c k o u t i f
s h e w a n t e d me t o go home w i t h h e r a n d I c o u l d , y o u kno w, go i f I
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w a n t e d t o , so s h e came b a c k i n a nd w e n t b a c k o u t a n d t h e man —
t h i s o f f i c e r t o l d h e r t h a t i f — s h e t o l d me t h a t t h e o f f i c e r
s a i d t h a t i f I w o u l d n ’ t come o u t h e r e , w e l l t h e y w o u l d c a r r y me
up t o t h e c i t y j a i l a n d I t o l d t h e m t h a t ’ s w h a t I w a n t e d , t h a t ’ s
w h e r e I t h o u g h t I was g o i n g i n t h e f i r s t p l a c e .
Q. Now i s i t c o r r e c t , a r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t y o u d i d n o t
w a n t t o go home w i t h y o u r m o t h e r t h a t d a y ?
A . No, I d i d n ’ t .
Q. Why n o t ?
A. W e l l , when we g o t w h e r e t h e N e g r o g i r l s h a d f i r s t
g a t h e r e d , w e l l , we t o l d t h e m t h a t we w e r e g o i n g t o l e a v e t o
g e t h e r b e c a u s e we came t o g e t h e r .
Q. T h e n w e r e y o u f i n a l l y r e l e a s e d i n c a r e o f y o u r
m o t h e r a t t h a t t i m e ?
A. She came b a c k i n a n d t h a t ’ s when J u d g e G u e r n s e y
came w i t h h e r t h e n a n d s h e s a i d t h a t J u d g e G u e r n s e y w a n t e d t o
t a l k t o me, a n d two o t h e r o f f i c e r s came i n w i t h t h e m a n d a n o t h e r
man, I d o n ’ t know who h e w a s , a n d we I s t o o d up t h e r e a n d so
I t o l d t h e m t h a t i f h e w a n t e d t o t a l k t o me , w e l l he c o u l d t a l k
t o me i n t h e r e . He s a i d no h e w a n t e d me t o come o u t t o t a l k t o
h i m . I t u r n e d a r o u n d a n d I w e n t i n t h e b a t h r o o m so h e t o l d my
m o t h e r t o c a l l me a n d s h e d i d , a n d I a n s w e r e d h e r b u t s h e t o l d
me t o come o u t a n d I w o u l d n ’ t a n d t h i s o f f i c e r t o l d me t o o p e n
t h e d o o r . I o p e n e d t h e d o o r a n d he t o l d me t o come o u t a n d I
t o l d h i m n o , t h e N . A . A . C . P . was s u p p o s e d t o g e t me o u t a n d t h a t ’
_________________________________________________________ (S. Catchings, Dr)
( 3 . P a t c h i n g s . Dr) 57 0 .
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v/Iien t h e two o f f i c e r s r a n up i n a n d g o t me o u t a n d t h e y s t a r t e d
t w i s t i n g my a r m so when we w e r e w a l k i n g on b a c k t o t h e o u t s i d e
my m o t h e r c a u g h t my r i g h t a r m a n d t r i e d t o , y o u know, g e t i t f r e e
a n d a n o f f i c e r w a l k e d up b e h i n d h e r a n d , f r o m w h a t I c o u l d s e e ,
he h i t h e r w i t h t h i s b o a r d t h a t he was w r i t i n g on a n d we w e n t on
a n d t a l k e d t o t h e — we w e n t on o u t a n d t a l k e d t o t h e J u d g e a n d he
a s k e d me l o t s o f q u e s t i o n s and so I l e f t t h e r e a n d I w e n t t o t a l k
t o t h e F e d e r a l man a nd t h e n I j o i n e d i n a n o t h e r d e m o n s t r a t i o n
t h a t same d a y *
Q. What h a p p e n e d i n t h a t d e m o n s t r a t i o n ?
A. We w e r e w a l k i n g down L y n c h S t r e e t on t h e s i d e w a l k
t h e n .
Q. W h e r e d i d y o u b e g i n ?
A. We s t a r t e d f r o m t h e M a s o n i c T e m p l e .
Q. And w h a t t y p e o f f o r m a t i o n w e r e y o u i n when y o u
l e f t t h e M a s o n i c T e m p l e ?
A. We w e r e t wo a b r e a s t .
Q. Wer e y o u on t h e s i d e w a l k o r on t h e s t r e e t ?
A. No, we w e r e on t h e s i d e w a l k .
Q. D i d y o u h a v e f l a g s a n d s i g n s ?
A. Y e s , a f e w o f u s h a d f l a g s a n d p e o p l e t o w a r d t h e
f r o n t h a d s i g n s .
Q. What d i d t h e s i g n s s a y ?
A. We w a n t e q u a l i t y a n d we w a n t f r e e d o m .
25
Q. What k i n d o f f l a g s w e r e y o u c a r r y i n g ?
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(S. Catchings, Dr) 580
A. A m e r i c a n f l a g s .
Q. How f a r d i d y o u g e t on t h i s o c c a s i o n ?
A. We g o t down t o P o i n d e x t e r .
Q. And w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h a t p o i n t ?
A. W e l l , when we g o t down t o P o i n d e x t e r we s t o p p e d ~~
we w e r e h a l t e d by p o l i c e m e n so we t u r n e d down P o i n d e x t e r a n d
s t a r t e d i n a n o t h e r r o u t e t o C a p i t o l S t r e e t a n d we w e r e h a l t e d
t h e r e a n d so t h e o f f i c e r s t o l d u s t h a t we w e r e u n d e r a r r e s t f o r
p a r a d i n g w i t h o u t a p e r m i t .
Q. Why, i f y o u know, w e r e y o u h e a d i n g t o w a r d C a p i t o l
S t r e e t , why d i d n ’ t yo u j u s t p a r a d e up a n d down on L y n c h S t r e e t .
A. W e l l , I f e e l t h a t i f we h a d g o n e down C a p i t o l S t r e e t
t h e w h i t e p e o p l e w o u l d s e e , y o u k n ow, j u s t how we f e l t a n d we
r e a l l y m e a n t w h a t we w e r e s a y i n g , a n d i f we h a d o f , yo u know,
j u s t m a r c h e d up a n d down on L y n c h S t r e e t , w e l l , t n e N e g r o e s
a l r e a d y knew how we f e l t a b o u t s e g r e g a t i o n so t h a t ’ s why we
w a n t e d t o g e t down on C a p i t o l S t r e e t , so o t h e r p e o p l e c o u l d s e e
how we f e l t a b o u t i t .
Q. You i n d i c a t e d t h a t y o u w e r e a l s o a r r e s t e d on J u n e
12 .
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. What was y o u r r e a s o n f o r j o i n i n g t h a t p r o t e s t ?
A. We w e r e a l s o p r o t e s t i n g a g a i n s t s e g r e g a t i o n t h e n
a n d we a l s o w a n t e d t h e w h i t e p e o p l e t o know t h a t we w e r e n ’ t
s a t i s f i e d a n d t h a t b e c a u s e o u r l e a d e r h a d g o t k i l l e d t h a t n i g n t
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t h a t f o l l o w i n g d a y o f m o u r n i n g , w e l l , we w a n t e d t h e m t o know
t h a t t h a t w o u l d n ’ t s t o p u s i n a n y w a y .
Q. Were y o u a r r e s t e d on t h i s o c c a s i o n a l s o ?
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t , I w a s .
MR. WELLS:
_________________________________________________________ (3. Catchings, Jr)
No f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s .
CROSS EXAMINATION
Mr . N i c h o l s :
Q. You a r c S h i r l e y C a t c h i n g s , t h e d a u g h t e r o f B e r t h a
C a t c h i n g s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A. No, B e n n i e C a t c h i n g s .
Q. I b e g y o u r p a r d o n ?
A. I t i s B e n n i e C a t c h i n g s .
Q. B e t t y C a t c h i n g s i s y o u r m o t h e r ?
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t , i t ’ s B e n n i e , t h o u g h .
Q. How many p e o p l e w e r e a r r e s t e d w i t h y o u on May 31?
A. I t was a b o u t 300 .
Q. Woul d 322 b e a p p r o x i m a t e l y c o r r e c t ?
A. I d o n ’ t know a b o u t t h e o t h e r p a r t , b u t I know i t
was o v e r 3 0 0 .
Q. Now, w h e r e w e r e t h e s e p e o p l e a t t h e t i m e t h e y w e r e
a r r e s t e d ?
A. I b e g y o u r p a r d o n ?
Q. Wer e t h e p e o p l e i n t h e s t r e e t s when t h e y w e r e
582 .
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( S . C a t c h i n g s , Dr )
a r r e s t ed?
A. F o r t h e f i r s t o n e , n o ,
Q. I t was on May 3 1 , t h e 300 p e o p l e ?
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t — no we w e r e n ’ t i n t h e s t r e e t .
Q. You w e r e a l l on t h e s i d e w a l k ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. And d o e s t h a t p a r t o f F a r i s h S t r e e t h a v e s i d e w a l k s
on b o t h s i d e s ?
A. Y e s , i t d o e s .
Q. Were y o u on b o t h s i d e s o f t h e s i d e w a l k o r j u s t o n e
s i d e ?
A. One side.
Q. You w e r e m a r c h i n g two a b r e a s t , I b e l i e v e yo u s a i d .
A. T h a t’ s r i g h t .
Q- And c a r r y i n g f l a g s ?
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. And y o u w e r e h e a d e d i n t o d o wnt own C a p i t o l S t r e e t t o
i l l u s t r a t e y o u r d i s s a t i s f a c t i o n w i t h c e r t a i n s e g r e g a t i o n p o l i c i e :
i s t h a t w h a t y o u s a i d ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. Now a p p r o x i m a t e l y how many o f t h e t h r e e h u n d r e d
w e r e c a r r y i n g f l a g s ?
A. A l l o f u s w e r e c a r r y i n g f l a g s a s I c a n r e m e m b e r ,
Q. D i d a l l o f y o u h a v e t h i s same p u r p o s e i n
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( S . C a t c b i n g s , Dr )
d e m o n s t r a t i n g t h a t d a y ?
A , Y e s , t h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. Now, do y o u know w h a t y o u w e r e c h a r g e d w i t h when
y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d ?
A. P a r a d i n g w i t h o u t a p e r m i t .
Q. Wh er e w e r e y o u s t o p p e d by t h e o f f i c e r ?
A. We w e r e s t o p p e d up by a f u n e r a l home ~~ I f o r g e t t h e
name o f t h e f u n e r a l h o m e . I t was a b o u t a b l o c k away f r o m t h e
c h u r c h t h a t we h ad l e f t .
Q. D i d a n y o n e i n c h a r g e o f t h e p o l i c e d e t a i l a s k
w h e t h e r o r n o t a n y o n e i n t h e g r o u p h a d a p e r m i t t o p a r a d e ?
A. Anyone i n t h e g r o u p w h a t ?
Q. Had a p e r m i t t o p a r a d e ?
A, I d o n ’ t know.
Q. I s i t n o t t r u e t h a t t h e o f f i c e r a d d r e s s e d t h e c r o w d
o v e r a l o u d s p e a k e r ?
A. No .
Q. He d i d n o t ?
A. No .
Q. We r e y o u a b l e t o h e a r h i m wh en he s p o k e ?
A. No .
Q. How f a r b a c k i n t h e c ro w d w e r e y o u ?
A. I wa s c l o s e t o t h e f r o n t , b u t n o t c l o s e e n o u g h
h e a r h im t a l k i n g .
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( S . C a t c h i n g s , D r )
Q. A p p r o x i m a t e l y how many p e o p l e w e r e i n f r o n t o f y o u ?
A. I d o n ’ t know.
Q. How f a r a way f r o m t h e o f f i c e r w e r e y o u wh e n he
spo k e?
A. I t was a l o n g wa ys f r o m h i m a n d I w a s n ’ t t o o c l o s e
t o h e a r w h a t he was s a y i n g .
Q. B i d y o u h a v e a p e r m i t t o p a r a d e t h a t d a y ?
A. No we d i d n ’ t .
Q. You s a y no we d i d n o t —
A. No we d i d n o t .
Q. Beg p a r d o n ?
A. No .
Q. B i d a n y o n e e l s e w i t h y o u h a v e a p e r m i t t o p a r a d e ?
A. No .
Q. Now, w i t h r e g a r d t o y o u r J u n e 1 a r r e s t — i t was
t h e n e x t d a y I b e l i e v e , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. You w e r e a r r e s t e d f o r p a r a d i n g w i t h o u t a p e r m i t on
Ly n ch S t r e e t , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
A. No, we w e r e on P o i n d e x t e r t h e n .
Q. You h a d t o come down L y n c h t o t u r n on t o
P o i n d e x t e r ?
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. Bo y o u know how many p e r s o n s w e r e w i t h y o u t h a t
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585 .
( S . C a t c h i n g s , Dr)
w e r e a r r e s t e d t h a t d a y ?
A. I t u a s a b o u t a h u n d r e d I ’ d — o v e r a h u n d r e d .
Q. Now on t h a t d a y d i d y o u — w e r e yo u c l o s e e n o u g h t o
t h e f r o n t o f t h e p a r a d e t o h e a r t h e a r r e s t i n g o f f i c e r when h e
s p o k e ?
A. No .
Q. I s i t n o t t r u e t h a t he u s e d t h e l o u d s p e a k e r t o
a d d r e s s t h e c r o w d ?
A. No, be d i d n ’ t u s e t h e l o u d s p e a k e r .
Q. D e s c r i b e y o u r p a r a d e on t h a t d a y i f y o u w o u l d .
A. W e l l , we l e f t t h e M a s o n i c T e m p l e , two a b r e a s t , a t
a r m l e n g t h a p a r t , a n d we s t a r t e d down L y n c h S t r e e t . I t was a
s i l e n t m a r c h . We w e r e c a r r y i n g f l a g s . When we g o t down t o
P o i n d e x t e r we w e r e s t o p p e d by t h e o f f i c e r s so we t u r n e d down
P o i n d e x t e r a n d we w e r e a l s o c u t o f f by p o l i c e o f f i c e r s a r o u n d i t j
so t h e n we s t o o d t h e r e a n d t h e o f f i c e r s s t a r t e d t a k i n g t h e f l a g s
a n d b r e a k i n g t h e m , a n d we s t o o d t h e r e a n d t h e y s t a r t e d b r i n g i n g
■paddy w a g o n s up so t h i s o f f i c e r t o l d u s t o g e t i n t h e pa dd y
w a g o n s so we g o t i n a n d —
Q. Now j u s t s t o p t h e r e — I w a n t y o u t o g e t m o r e t o
t h e p o i n t . When y o u w e n t up L y n c h S t r e e t w e r e y o u on t h e s i d e -
w a l k o r i n t h e s t r e e t ?
A, We w e r e on t h e s i d e w a l k .
q . And when y o u t u r n e d on L i v i n g s t o n w e r e y o u on t h e
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( S . C a t c h i n g s , Dr )
s i d e w a l k o r i n t h e s t r e e t ?
A. When we t u r n e d on w h a t ?
Q. T u r n e d on L i v i n g s t o n — I mean P o i n d e x t e r , e x c u s e
me?
A. We w e r e i n t h e s t r e e t .
Q. I s a y , w e r e y o u i n t h e s t r e e t o r w e r e y o u on t h e
s i d e w a l k when y o u g o t on t o P o i n d e x t e r ?
A. We w e r e i n t h e s t r e e t .
Q. How come y o u w e r e i n t h e s t r e e t ?
A. On t h e s i d e .
Q, On t h e s i d e ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q, T h e n t h e r e ’ s no way t h e r e f o r p e d e s t r i a n t r a f f i c
t o w a l k up t h a t s t r e e t . You w o u l d h a v e t o b e i n t h e v e h i c u l a r
p a r t o f i t , w o u l d y o u n o t ?
A. Beg p a r d o n .
Q. You w o u l d h a v e t o w a l k w h e r e a u t o m o b i l e s go?
A. W e l l , we h a d t o w a l k i n t h e s t r e e t t h e n b e c a u s e
t h e y d i d n ’ t h a v e a n y s i d e w a l k s o r a n y t h i n g .
Q. And y o u w e r e s t i l l two a b r e a s t ?
A . Y e s .
Q. Was t h e r e a n y s i n g i n g o r c h a n t i n g o r a n y t h i n g l i k e
t h a t ?
A. No, we w e r e n ’ t s i n g i n g .
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( S . C a t c h i n g s , Dr )
Q. W i t h r e f e r e n c e b a c k t o t h e d a y b e f o r e on F a r i s h
S t r e e t , was t h e r e a n y s i n g i n g o r c h a n t i n g i n t h a t p a r a d e ?
A. I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r .
Q. You mean y o u c a n r e m e m b e r e x a c t l y w h e r e y o u w a l k e d
a n d e x a c t l y how t h e p o l i c e b r o k e t h e f l a g s , b u t y o u c a n ’ t r emem
b e r w h e t h e r o r n o t —
A. Y e s , I c a n r e m e m b e r a l l t h a t , b u t I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r
w h e t h e r we w e r e s i n g i n g o r n o t .
Q. Now I w a n t y o u t o - - e x c u s e me — o ne o t h e r a r r e s t
on J u n e 1 2 , t h a t was f o r p a r a d i n g a g a i n on L y n c h S t r e e t , i s t h a t
c o r r e c t ?
A , T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. And w o u l d y o u t e l l t h e C o u r t how many p e o p l e w e r e
a r r e s t e d w i t h y o u on t h a t d a y ?
A. I t was o v e r a h u n d r e d t h e n t o o ,
Q. Woul d y o u s a y 146 p e r s o n s w o u l d be t h e c o r r e c t
n u m b e r ?
A. I d o n ’ t kno w, b u t — a l l I know i t was o v e r a
h u n d r e d .
q . And w o u l d y o u d e s c r i b e t h e p a r a d e y o u w e r e i n t h a t
d a y ?
A. W e l l , we l e f t t h e T e m p l e a n d s t a r t e d o u t i n t o t h e
s t r e e t — down L y n c h S t r e e t t o R o s e S t r e e t a n d t h a t ’ s w h e r e t h e
o f f i c e r s t o p p e d u s .
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( S , C a t c h i n g s , D r )
Q. Wer e y o u i n t h e s t r e e t o r on t h e s i d e w a l k ?
A. We w e r e i n t h e s t r e e t .
Q. T h a t i s t h e p a r t o f t h e s t r e e t w h e r e a u t o m o b i l e s
t r a v e l — y o u w e r e w a l k i n g i n t h a t p a r t on t h i s d a y , i s t h a t
r i g h t ?
A. The p a r t w h e r e t h e a u t o m o b i l e s r u n , y e s .
Q. We r e y o u on one s i d e o f t h e s t r e e t o r i n t h e m i d d l e
o r on t h e o t h e r s i d e ?
A. We w e r e on o n e s i d e .
Q. W hi ch s i d e w e r e y o u on?
A. The r i g h t s i d e .
Q. The r i g h t s i d e c o m i n g f r o m t o w n —
A. Comi ng down —
Q. T h a t w o u l d be t h e s o u t h s i d e o f L y n c h S t r e e t ,
w o u l d i t n o t ? L y n c h S t r e e t r u n s e a s t a n d w e s t , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A. I ’ m c o n f u s e d —— c o m i n g , y ou k n o w , l i k e on L y n c h
S t r e e t — c o m i n g s t r a i g h t down we w e r e on — c o m i n g down t o w a r d s
— a s i f i t w as g o i n g t h i s way a n d y o u c o n s i d e r t h a t a s t h e
n o r t h , w e l l , we w e r e g o i n g s o u t h .
Q. A l l r i g h t t h e n . Now d i d e v e r y o n e i n t h e p a r a d e on
t h e 1 2 t h a n d on t h e 1 s t h a v e t h e same i d e a i n m i n d , t h a t i s t o
p r o t e s t ?
A. Y e s , I s u p p o s e s o .
Q. You a l l h a d t h i s common p u r p o s e d i d y o u n o t ?
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( S . C a t c h i n g s , D r )
A . Y e s .
Q. And w e r e y ou h e a d e d t o d o w nt o w n J a c k s o n t o p a r a d e ?
A, T h a t ’ s r i g h t , we w e r e .
Q. And on J u n e 1 s t when y ou w e r e c o m i n g up L y n c h S t r e e t
a n d y o u saw p o l i c e down s e v e r a l b l o c k s b e f o r e y o u t u r n e d o f f on
P o i n d e x t e r , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
A. No, b e c a u s e t h e p o l i c e m e n w e r e a l r e a d y u p o n u s , b u t
t h e y d i d n ’ t t e l l u s t o s t o p t h e n .
Q. Now, on J u n e 31 y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d on F a r i s h S t r e e t
— I b e g y o u r p a r d o n , May 31 — y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d on F a r i s h
S t r e e t . T h a t ’ s t h e d a y t h a t y o u w e r e t r a n s p o r t e d t o t h e t e m p o r
a r y j a i l a t t h e f a i r g r o u n d s i n a g a r b a g e t r u c k , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. I b e l i e v e y o u h a v e p r e v i o u s l y f i l e d a n a f f i d a v i t i n
t h i s c a s e , h a v e you n o t , c o v e r i n g t h a t s i t u a t i o n ?
A. Y e s , I h a v e .
Q. Now, d e s c r i b e t h i s t r u c k , y o u s a y i t was a u s e d
g a r b a g e t r u c k . W e l l , t e l l me w h a t t y p e o f t r u c k i t was y o u
w e r e t r a n s p o r t e d i n .
A. I t was a l a r g e w h i t e o n e w i t h a s m a l l d o o r on t h e
s i d e a n d i t was r e a l d i r t y on t h e i n s i d e . I t was w a t e r a n d
t r a s h m i x e d t o g e t h e r a n d t h e s i d e s o f i t was r e a l d i r t y t o o ,
a n d a f t e r we w e r e p u t i n t h e p o l i c e m a n c l o s e d t h e d o o r a n d t h e n ,
y o u k now, i t g o t r e a l h o t i n t h e r e .
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( S . C a t c h i n g s , D r )
Q. Now, when y o u g o t down t o t h e j a i l down a t t h e f a i r
grounds- . , a s t o c k a d e a s y o u c a l l i t , w h a t h a p p e n e d t o y o u t h e n ?
A. We w e r e p u t i n t o one s i d e o f t h e s t o c k a d e a n d t h e n
we w e r e t a k e n f o u r by f o u r a n d we h a d t o g i v e o u r n a mes t o some
w h i t e men s i t t i n g a t t y p e w r i t e r s , a n d t h e n we w e r e p u t i n t o t h e
o t h e r s i d e a n d l a t e r on we w e r e s e p a r a t e d .
Q. And yo u s p e n t t h e n i g h t t h e r e on t h e 3 l s t o f May?
A . T h a t T s r i g h t .
Q. Now, i s i t n o t t r u e t h a t y o u w e r e o f f e r e d t h e c o n
v e n i e n c e o f a c o t a n d m a t t r e s s i f y o u c a r e d t o s l e e p on o n e ?
A . No, we w e r e n ’ t .
Q. You w e r e n o t ?
A . No .
Q. I b e l i e v e i n y o u r a f f i d a v i t y o u s a i d t h a t t h e h e a t
was t u r n e d on i n t h e b u i l d i n g s . Do y o u know t h a t f r o m y o u r own
k n o w l e d g e ?
A. On t h e f i r s t o n e — I mean on t h e f i r s t d e m o n s t r a
t i o n —« no i t w a s n ’ t .
Q. I t was n o t t u r n e d on t h e f i r s t d a y ?
A . No .
Q. A r e yo u p o s i t i v e t h a t t h e r e was no c o t a v a i l a b l e
f o r w h i c h y o u c o u l d u s e t o s l e e p on?
A. Now, yo u mean f o r t h e f i r s t o n e — no t h e y d i d n ’ t
o f f e r u s c o t s .
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( S . C a t c h i n g s , Dr )
Q, And y o u h a d t o s l e e p on t h e f l o o r t h a t n i g h t ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. Now, t h e n e x t m o r n i n g was when y o u r m o t h e r came
down a n d came i n t h e b u i l d i n g t o b r i n g y o u o u t , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. And s he made one t r i p i n a n d y o u r e f u s e d t o come
o u t a n d s h e l e f t , a n d s h e came b a c k i n t h e s e c o n d t i m e ?
A. No, b u t s h e d i d n ’ t r e a l l y l e a v e t h e f a i r g r o u n d s
t h e n , s h e j u s t l e f t — w e n t on t h e o u t s i d e o f t h e s t o c k a d e .
Q. She l e f t t h e b u i l d i n g , d i d n ’ t s h e ?
A . Y e s .
Q. T h e n s h e came b a c k i n t h e b u i l d i n g ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. The s e c o n d t i m e was t h e r e a n y o n e w i t h h e r ?
A, J u d g e G u e r n s e y .
Q. Do y o u know h i m t o be t h e Y o u t h C o u r t J u d g e o f
H i n d s C o u n t y ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. And was Mr . O s b o r n e w i t h h i m?
A. I f h e ’ s t h e t a l l — t a l l a n d s l i m —
Q. Known a s t h e J u v e n i l e O f f i c e r , i s n ’ t i t t r u e t h a t
h e was w i t h t h e J u d g e a t t h a t t i m e ?
A. W e l l , I g e t c o n f u s e d w i t h t h e m . I d o n ’ t know
591 .
w h i c h i s w h i c h .
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( S . C a t c h i n g s , Dr )
Q, You r e c o g n i z e d J u d g e G u e r n s e y t h o u g h ?
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t , I d i d .
Q. Now a t t h a t t i m e , i s i t n o t t r u e t h a t when y o u saw
h i m y o u t u r n e d a n d r a n i n t o t h e r e s t room?
A t I s t a r t e d w a l k i n g t o w a r d s — w a l k i n g b a c k — a n d
t h e y w e r e c o m i n g i n a n d when t h e y s a i d J u d g e G u e r n s e y w a n t e d t o
t a l k t o me, w e l l , I s a i d he c o u l d t a l k t o me i n t h e r e , a n d t h e y
s a i d n o , he w a n t e d t o t a l k t o me on t h e o u t s i d e , so I t u r n e d a n d
w a l k e d i n t h e b a t h r o o m .
Q, What was y o u r p u r p o s e i n g o i n g i n t h e b a t h r o o m a t
t h a t t i m e ?
A. W e l l , t h e y w e r e s t i l l w a l k i n g up on me so I t u r n e d
a r o u n d a n d w e n t i n t h e r e s t r o o m .
Q. You w e r e g o i n g i n t h e r e t o h i d e was i t , o r t o k e e p
t h e m f r o m c o m i n g i n , o r d i d y o u go i n t h e r e t o p e r f o r m a n a c t o f
n a t u r e ?
A. No . I d i d n ’ t know w h a t t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o do . I
w a s n ’ t h i d i n g f r o m t h e m b e c a u s e t h e y saw me when I w e n t i n .
Q. Do y o u know why t h e y w a n t e d t o t a l k t o y o u ?
A. No ♦
Q. Or w h a t t h e y w a n t e d t o t a l k a b o u t ?
A. No.
Q. Now, d i d y o u r m o t h e r a s k y o u t o come o u t o f t h e
r e s t r o o m ?
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y 3.
( S . C a t c h i n g s , C r )
A. Y e s , s h e d i d .
Q. B i d y o u o b e y h e r ?
A. No .
Q. D i d J u d g e G u e r n s e y a s k y o u t o come o u t o f t h e r e s t
room?
A . No , he d i d n ’ t .
Q. D i d a n y o n e o t h e r t h a n y o u r m o t h e r a s k y o u t o come
o u t ?
A. T h i s o t h e r man t h a t was w i t h t h e m .
Q. M r . O s b o r n e ?
A. I d o n ’ t know who he w a s . I know he t o l d my m o t h e r
t o ’’c a l l y o u r d a u g h t e r o u t o f t h e r e s t r o o m . ”
Q. So t h e n two o f f i c e r s came i n a n d b r o u g h t y o u o u t ,
i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. And t h i s i s when y o u s a y y o u r a r m was t w i s t e d a n d
y o u r m o t h e r was s t r u c k ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. And a l l o f t h i s h a p p e n e d i n f r o n t o f t h e Y o u t h
C o u r t J u d g e , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. J u d g e G u e r n s e y s p o k e t o y o u a n d y o u r m o t h e r p r i o r
t o y o u r f i r s t r e l e a s e , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
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594 .
(S . C a t c h i n g s , C r )
Q. T h e n t h e v e r y n e x t d a y you w e n t o u t a n d j o i n e d
a n o t h e r p a r a d e , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q » On y o u r s e c o n d a r r e s t on J u n e 1 , w e r e you t a k e n
b a c k t o t h e s t o c k a d e ?
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t , I w a s .
Q. What mode o f t r a n s p o r t a t i o n was u s e d t h a t t i m e ?
A. P a d d y w a g o n .
Q. P a d d y w a g on ?
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. T h a t i s a p o l i c e wa go n t h a t h a s a s h i e l d on t h e
s i d e — a r e g u l a r p o l i c e w a g o n , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A. Y e s .
Q. D i d y o u s p e n d a n o t h e r n i g h t t h e r e ?
A. I y e s I d i d .
Q. On t h e s e c o n d n i g h t d i d y o u s l e e p on t h e f l o o r
w e r e y o u o f f e r e d a c o t t o s l e e p on?
A, T h a t s e c o n d d a y w h i c h was J u n e 2nd on S u n d a y , t h e y£
s t a r t e d b r i n g i n g c o t s i n a n d s t a r t e d m o p p i n g t h e f l o o r a n d a t
1 2 : 0 0 o ’ c l o c k n o o n t h e same man t h a t came i n w i t h my m o t h e r came
b a c k i n t h e r e a n d c a l l e d me a n d t o l d me t h a t I was g o i n g up t o
t h e c i t y j a i l .
Q. Now, a c t u a l l y i s n ’ t i t t r u e t h a t y o u r e n t i r e c o n
f i n e m e n t was a t t h e d i r e c t i o n o f t h e Y o u t h C o u r t o f H i n d s
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595 .
( S . C a t c h i n g s , C r )
C o u n t y ?
A. Beg p a r d o n ,
Q. I s n ’ t i t t r u e t h a t t h e Y o u t h C o u r t o f H i n d s C o u n t y
h ad c o n t r o l o f y o u w h i l e y o u w e r e i n t h e j a i l - on two t i m e s ?
A. I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d y o u .
Q. D i d n ’ t t h e Y o u t h C o u r t l e t y o u go?
A. The f i r s t t i m e ?
Q. Yes .
A . The J u d g e ?
Q. J u d g e G u e r n s e y ?
A. Yes .
Q. The s e c o n d t i m e d i d J u d g e G u e r n s e y t a l k t o y o u ?
A . No, h e d i d n ’ t .
Q. D i d a n y o n e t a l k t o y o u ?
A. No .
Q. Who t o l d y o u t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o t a k e y o u t o j a i l ?
A . The s e c o n d t i m e d i d n ’ t a n y o n e s a y a n y t h i n g b e c a u s e
I w as s t i l l down on t h e f a i r g r o u n d s when t h i s man came i n a n d
g o t me o u t a n d t o l d me t o g e t i n h i s c a r so I g o t i n , a n d he
c a r r i e d me on up t o t h e c i t y j a i l w h e r e I was l o c k e d i n w i t h
s e v e r a l o t h e r j u v e n i l e s .
Q. B i d a t a n y t i m e a f t e r t h a t y o u s e e J u d g e G u e r n s e y ?
A. No, I d i d n ’ t . Oh y e s , t h a t T u e s d a y n i g h t I t a l k e d
t o a s h o r t - - a s h o r t — he was k i n d o f s t o u t w h i t e m a n . I d o n ’ t
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596 .
( S . C a t c h i n g s , C r )
know h i s name e i t h e r .
Q. How d i d y o u g e t o u t o f j a i l t h e s e c o n d t i m e ?
A. My f a t h e r came a f t e r me.
Q. B i d yo u l e a r n w h e t h e r o r n o t y o u r f a t h e r s p o k e t o
t h e Y o u t h C o u r t J u d g e p r i o r t o y o u r r e l e a s e ?
A. No, he came t h a t n i g h t a n d I d o n ’ t t h i n k t h e Y o u t h
J u d g e was a r o u n d —
Q. Now, on y o u r t h i r d a r r e s t , w h e r e w e r e y o u t a k e n
when y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d ?
A. To t h e s t o c k a d e .
Q. How w e r e y o u t r e a t e d o n t h a t o c c a s i o n ?
A. A w f u l .
Q. Wer e y o u a l l o w e d s l e e p i n g a c c o m m o d a t i o n s s u c h a s
a c o t a n d m a t t r e s s ?
A. Y e s , t h e y h a d c o t s t h e n .
Q. Were y o u f e d a n y m e a l s w h i l e y o u w e r e t h e r e ?
A . Y e s .
Q. How d i d yo u — how w e r e y o u r e l e a s e d t h e t h i r d
t i me?
A. The t h i r d t i m e I t a l k e d w i t h J u d g e G u e r n s e y .
Q. So t h e n e a c h t i m e y o u g o t o u t o f j a i l e x c e p t t h e
t i m e y o u r f a t h e r g o t y o u o u t a t n i g h t , J u d g e G u e r n s e y was t h e
o n e who r e l e a s e d y o u ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t
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( S . C a t c h i n g s , C r )
Q. The f i r s t a n d t h e t h i r d t i m e s ?
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. And d i d he e v e r s a y a n y t h i n g a b o u t r e p o r t i n g b a c k
t o h i s C o u r t ?
A. No .
Q. D i d he t e l l yo u a n y t h i n g a b o u t he was p u t t i n g y o u
on p r o b a t i o n ?
A. No .
Q. What d i d he t e l l y o u ?
A. He t o l d me i f I d e m o n s t r a t e d one mo r e t i m e he was
g o i n g t o sene me down t o O a k l a n d .
Q. He d i d n ’ t s a y a t h i n g i n t h e w o r l d a b o u t y o u b e i n g
on p r o b a t i o n ?
A. No, he d i d n ’ t .
Q. How o l d a r e y o u now?
A. F i f t e e n .
MR. NICHOLS:
T h a t ’ s a l l .
MISS SHIRLEY DOLORES BAILY
b e i n g c a l l e d a s a w i t n e s s by t h e p l a i n t i f f a n d a f t e r f i r s t
h a v i n g b e e n d u l y s w o r n , t e s t i f i e d a s f o l l o w s :
DIRECT EXAMINATION
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Woul d y o u s t a t e y o u r n a m e , y o u r a d d r e s s a n d y o u r
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598 .
(S . D. B a i l y , D r )
a g e ?
A. My name i s S h i r l e y D o l o r e s B a i l y . I l i v e a t 1 5 0 2
F l o r e n c e A v e n u e , J a c k s o n , M i s s i s s i p p i .
Q. How o l d a r e y o u ?
A. I am 1 8 .
Q. And w h e r e w e r e y o u b o r n ?
A, I was b o r n i n J a c k s o n .
Q. We r e y o u a r r e s t e d f o r b e i n g on a b e n c h i n a p a r k
i n J a c k s o n ?
A. Y e s , I w a s .
Q.
MR. TRAVIS:
W i l l y o u t e l l when i t o c c u r r e d ?
Q. P a r d o n me, w o u l d y o u g e t h e r name?
A. S h i r l e y D o l o r e s B a i l y .
Q.
l a s t n a m e .
S p e a k a l i t t l e b i t mor e d i s t i n c t , I d i d n ’ t g e t y o u r
A.
MRS. MORRIS:
B a i l y , B - a - i ~ l ~ y .
The a c o u s t i c s i n t h i s c o u r t r o o m a r e v e r y b a d . No-
b o d y c a n h e a r so y o u w i l l h a v e t o s p e a k w e l l .
A. OK, t h a n k y o u .
Q. Can y o u t e l l me w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h e p a r k ?
A. Y e s , on J u n e 1 9 6 1 , t h a t ’ s a s f a r a s I c a n r e m e m -
b e r -
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599 .
( S . D. B a i l y , D r )
MR. WATKINS:
I f t h e C o u r t p l e a s e , we w o u l d l i k e t h e r e c o r d t o show a n
o b j e c t i o n on o u r p a r t on t h e g r o u n d s t h a t t h e C i t y P a r k m a t t e r
w h i c h h a p p e n e d i n 1961 i s n o t w i t h i n t h e f r a m e w o r k o f t h e i s s u e s
h e r e .
THE COURT :
A l l r i g h t , I w i l l r e s e r v e a r u l i n g on t h a t . R em i n d
me o f t h a t t o m o r r o w , I T11 r u l e on i t .
MRS. MORRIS:
You c a n c o n t i n u e .
A. W e l l , a g r o u p o f f r i e n d s a n d I w e n t a f t e r s c h o o l
a n d we w e r e w a l k i n g a r o u n d l o o k i n g a t t h e a n i m a l s a n d I was w i t h
o n e o f my bo y f r i e n d s , a n d we w e n t o v e r a n d g o t some p o p c o r n .
We s t a y e d t h e r e a b o u t t h i r t y m i n u t e s a n d I t o l d h i m t h a t I was
t i r e d a n d a s k e d h i m i f we c o u l d go a n d s i t , so h e h ad t h e p o p
c o r n i n h i s h a n d a nd we w e n t o v e r a n d s i t on t h e b e n c h e s . We
w e r e s i t t i n g t h e r e f o r a b o u t f i f t e e n m i n u t e s a n d t h e o f f i c e r ——
a Navy o f f i c e r i n t h e zoo came o v e r a n d t o l d u s t h a t we w o u l d
h a v e t o move a n d s h e a s k e d i f we w o u l d m o v e . I s a i d n o , a n d
we s t a y e d t h e r e f o r a b o u t f i f t e e n mo r e m i n u t e s a n d some mor e
o f f i c e r s came a n d t o l d u s t o m o v e , t h a t we w e r e n ’ t s u p p o s e d t o
be t h e r e a n d we w o u l d h a v e t o m o v e . I t o l d h i m —— I t o l d t h e
o f f i c e r t h a t Mayor Thompson h a d s a i d on t e l e v i s i o n a b o u t two
w e e k s a g o t h a t t h e zoo was a p u b l i c p l a c e a n d t h a t i t w as o p e n
f o r a l l c i t i z e n s a n d I a s k e d h i m why d i d we h a v e t o m o v e . He
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( S . B . B a i l y , D r )
s a i d , w e l l , i f y o u d o n ’ t move y o u a r e u n d e r a r r e s t a n d so when
he s a i d we w e r e u n d e r a r r e s t , we g o t up a n d he l e d u s t o a c a r
a n d we g o t i n t h e c a r a n d h e t o o k u s up t o j a i l .
When we g o t up t h e r e , t h e r e w e r e e i g h t p e o p l e w i t h me.
He l e d u s i n t o d i f f e r e n t c o n f e r e n c e r o o m s a n d t h e same o f f i c e r
t h a t a r r e s t e d me came i n t h e c o n f e r e n c e room a n d h e a s k e d my
name a n d my f a t h e r ’ s n a m e , a n d he a s k e d me i f my f a t h e r knew
t h a t I w as t h e r e . I t o l d h i m t h a t my f a t h e r a l w a y s knew when I
w e n t on d a t e s . He s a i d ’’d i d y o u s e e t h e mob g a t h e r i n g , ” b u t I
d i d n ’ t s e e a mob a n d I t o l d h i m t h a t I d i d n ’ t s e e a mob .
Q. Was t h e r e a n y mob a t t h e t i m e y o u w e r e s i t t i n g i n
t h e p a r k ?
A. No, t h e r e wa s no mob t h e r e a n d I t o l d h i m t h a t I
d i d n ’ t s e e t h e mob. He s a i d , w e l l , we b r o u g h t y o u up h e r e f o r
y o u r own p r o t e c t i o n . I j u s t l o o k e d a t h i m , a n d h e s a i d ’’b u t
I ’ m g o i n g t o l e t yo u go i n a f e w m i n u t e s , " a n d t h e n a b o u t t e n
m i n u t e s l a t e r he t o l d me t h a t we c o u l d g o .
Q. Now, w h a t p a r k i s t h e s c h o o l l o c a t e d i n ?
A. L i v i n g s t o n P a r k .
Q. I s t h a t o n e o f t h e p a r k s t h a t i s s e g r e g a t e d f o r
w h i t e p e r s o n s o n l y ?
A . I t i s s u p p o s e d t o b e r l i k e t h e May o r s a i d ~~ o p e n
f o r a l l c i t i z e n s .
Q. And p r i o r t o t h a t a n n o u n c e m e n t , w as i t y o u r
601 .
( S . D. B a i l y , Dr )
u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t i t was a s e g r e g a t e d p a r k f o r
A. We c o u l d go t h e r e — t h e N e g r o e s c o u l d go t h e r e ,
b u t we c o u l d n ’ t s i t on t h e b e n c h e s .
Q. T h a t was y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g ?
A „ T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. And y o u r r a c e i s N e g r o ?
A . Y e s , I ’ m N e g r o .
Q. Now, a s t o 1 9 6 3 , d i d y o u p a r t i c i p a t e i n a n y o t h e r
p r o t e s t d e m o n s t r a t i o n s ?
A. Y e s , I was m a r c h i n g down L y n c h S t r e e t .
Q. On w h a t d a t e , do y o u r e m e m b e r ?
A. T h a t w as J u n e 1 2 t h , 1 9 6 3 .
0 . I s t h a t t h e same o n e i n w h i c h y o u r s i s t e r p a r t i * *
c i p a t e d —»
A. Y e s , t h i s i s t h e same o n e . I w a s a b o u t t h e s e c o n d
p e r s o n i n l i n e a n d we w e r e m a r c h i n g down L y n c h S t r e e t a n d I h a d
a U n i t e d S t a t e s f l a g i n my h a n d , a n d t h i s m a r c h w as v e r y q u i e t .
I t w as v e r y q u i e t b e c a u s e o n e o f t h e c i v i l r i g h t s l e a d e r s h a d
b e e n s h o t a n d i t r e a l l y d i s t u r b e d a l o t o f u s a n d we w e r e j u s t
w a l k i n g down t h e s t r e e t v e r y q u i e t l y . We g o t t o R o s e S t r e e t , a t
t h e c o r n e r o f R o s e S t r e e t a n d L y n c h S t r e e t a n d t h a t ’ s w h e n t h e
p o l i c e o f f i c e r s c a m e . One o f t h e o f f i c e r s s a i d y o u w i l l h a v e
t o d i s p e r s e o r i f y o u d i d n ’ t y o u w o u l d b e a r r e s t e d a n d t h e g i r l
t h a t w a s w i t h me , s h e w a s a b o u t t o t r y t o p a s s one o f t h e
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( S . D. B a i l y , D r )
o f f i c e r s a n d t h a t Ts when one o f t h e m h i t h e r , a n d t h e n h e
w o u l d n ’ t l e t h e r p a s s a n d a n o t h e r one o f t h e o f f i c e r s s a i d ,
w e l l , a r r e s t t h e m b o y s a n d t h e y p u t u s i n t r u c k s a n d t o o k us
down t o t h e f a i r g r o u n d s . Down t h e r e t h e y g a v e u s c o t s t o
s l e e p o n , w h i c h was r e a l l y n o t t o o much b e c a u s e e v e n i f you
w o u l d t u r n o v e r y o u w o u l d j u s t f a l l on t h e f l o o r . I s t a y e d down
t h e r e a t t h e f a i r g r o u n d s f o r t h r e e d a y s . The f o o d w as t e r r i b l e
s i m p l y t e r r i b l e , a n d d a d d y — one d a y t h e y came down a n d t o l d u s
t h a t o u r p a r e n t s w e r e o u t t h e r e a n d t h a t we c o u l d — t h e y t o o k
u s up t o t h e j a i l h o u s e so we c o u l d go h o m e .
Q. What k i n d o f f o o d was s e r v e d , do y o u r e m e m b e r ?
A. W e l l , I r e m e m b e r v e r y d i s t i n c t l y . F o r b r e a k f a s t
we h a d s y r u p , b r e a d a n d m i l k a n d g r i t s . F o r l u n c h we h a d p o r k
a n d b e a n s , r i c e a n d b r e a d a n d m i l k . F o r s u p p e r we h a d some t y p e
o f m e a t , I h a d n e v e r s e e n b e f o r e , r i c e a n d b r e a d .
Q. No c h a r g e s w e r e p l a c e d a g a i n s t y o u f o r t h i s ?
A. Y e s , t h e y s a i d t h a t I w as m a r c h i n g w i t h o u t a p e r
m i t .
Q. You w e r e n ’ t t r i e d w e r e y o u . You a n d y o u r s i s t e r
w e r e d i s m i s s e d b e c a u s e o f y o u r f a t h e r ’ s f r i e n d s h i p w i t h Mr .
E v e r s .
A . Y e s .
Q. Was t h a t s t a t e d by t h e p o l i c e ?
A . Y es .
602 .
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o03 .
THE COURT:
MRS. MORRIS:
THE COURT:
MRS. MORRIS:
THE COURT:
MRS. MORRIS:
( S . D. B a i l y , C r )
S p e a k a l i t t l e b i t more d i s t i n c t l y p l e a s e
P a r d o n ?
S p e a k a l i t t l e b i t mo r e d i s t i n c t l y , y o u —-
I ’ m t r y i n g
W e l l , t r y a l i t t l e h a r d e r
Q„ I ’ l l t r y . The same d i s p o s i t i o n w as made o f y o u r
c a s e a s w as made o f y o u r s i s t e r ’ s?
A. P a r d o n ?
Q. B a c k i n 1 9 6 1 whe n y o u w e r e i n t h e p a r k — L i v i n g s *
t o n P a r k t h a t wa s t h e w e ek b e f o r e y o u r s i s t e r w as i n t h e —
A. Y e s , i t wa s a w e e k b e f o r e .
Q. You w e r e n o t t o g e t h e r ?
A. No, d e f i n i t e l y .
MRS. MORRIS:
I h a v e no f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s
CROSS EXAMINATION
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. What d i d y o u s a y y o u r name was a g a i n p l e a s e ?
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604 .
( S . D. B a i l y , C r )
A. My name i s S h i r l e y D o l o r e s B a i l y .
Q. And how o l d a r e y o u a t t h e p r e s e n t t i m e ?
A. I am 18 y e a r s o l d .
Q. 1 8? Now w i t h o u t g o i n g b a c k o v e r t h e f a c t s i n t h i s
f i r s t a r r e s t o f y o u r s b a c k i n 1 9 6 1 , y o u w e r e r e l e a s e d on t h a t
o c c a s i o n by t h e Y o u t h C o u r t , w e r e y o u n o t ?
A. I n 1 9 6 1 ?
Q. You t e s t i f i e d t h a t y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d on J u n e 2 2 ,
1 9 6 1 , i n L i v i n g s t o n P a r k .
A. No, I d i d n ’ t . I s a i d t h a t I was — J u l y 1 9 6 1 . I
d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r t h e e x a c t d a t e . J u n e 1 2 , 1 9 6 3 ~—
Q. I u n d e r s t a n d .
A. T h a t was m a r c h i n g w i t h o u t a p e r m i t ,
Q. A l l r i g h t , w he n y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d , was y o u r s i s t e r
i n L i v i n g s t o n P a r k Zoo w i t h y o u on t h i s o c c a s i o n , wh e n y o u w e r e
a r r e s t ed?
A. Y e s , s h e w as t h e r e .
Q. T h e two o f y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d a t t h e same t i m e ?
A. No, my s i s t e r w as a r r e s t e d a w e e k a f t e r I w as
a r r e s t e d .
Q, A l l r i g h t , n o w, y o u r c a s e w as h a n d l e d b y t h e
Y o u t h C o u r t o f H i n d s C o u n t y o n t h i s f i r s t o c c a s i o n ?
A. No .
Q. No c h a r g e s w e r e f i l e d a g a i n s t y o u ?
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605 .
( S . D. B a i l y , C r )
A. No c h a r g e s w e r e f i l e d a g a i n s t me.
Q. I n 1 9 6 1 ?
A. I n 1 9 6 1 .
Q. A l l r i g h t , a n d w e r e y o u p l a c e d i n j a i l on t h a t
o c c a s i o n ?
A. I n 1 9 6 1 ? No, I w e n t t o a c o n f e r e n c e r o o m a n d he
s a i d t h a t h e w o u l d r e l e a s e u s .
Q. Now, i n r e g a r d t o t h i s s e c o n d a r r e s t t h a t y o u h a d
i n J u n e — J u n e 12 I b e l i e v e y o u t e s t i f i e d , i n 1 9 6 3 , i s t h a t
c o r r e c t ?
A . Y e s .
Q. Now, how many p e r s o n s d i d y o u s a y w e r e a r r e s t e d
w i t h y o u on t h i s o c c a s i o n ?
A. A p p r o x i m a t e l y a h u n d r e d *— a n d —
Q. F o r t y - s i x ?
A. I s h o u l d s a y a b o u t 1 5 0 .
Q. Now, w h e r e d i d y o u g e t t o g e t h e r w i t h t h i s g r o u p
o f 15 0 p e r s o n s ?
A. At t h e M a s o n i c T e m p l e on L y n c h S t r e e t .
Q. What was t h e o c c a s i o n f o r y o u g e t t i n g t o g e t h e r
w i t h t h e m a t t h e M a s o n i c T e m p l e o n L y n c h S t r e e t ?
A. W e l l , we a l w a y s — s o m e t i m e s we go up t o t h e
M a s o n i c T e m p l e t o p l a n d e m o n s t r a t i o n s a g a i n s t u n j u s t i c e i n t h e
S t a t e o f M i s s i s s i p p i .
606 .
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( S . D . B a i l y , C r )
Q. A l l r i g h t , y o u s a y we p l a n n e d t o go up t h e r e , w h o - -
A. A g r o u p o f y o u n g c h i l d r e n , my a g e .
Q. A l l r i g h t , who s p o n s o r s t h e s e m e e t i n g s ? Who g e t s
y o u t o g e t h e r ?
A. I d i d n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d y o u ,
Q. Who s p o n s o r s t h e s e m e e t i n g s t h a t y o u w e n t t o , t h a t
g o t y o u a n d t h e s e o t h e r 150 p e r s o n s t o g e t h e r ?
A. Who s p o n s o r e d u s ?
Q. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
A. W e l l -
Q. Wer e t h e l e a d e r s f r o m a n y o r g a n i z a t i o n s t h e r e ?
A. No, t h e y w e r e y o u n g c h i l d r e n j u s t l i k e I am,
y o u n g t e e n a g e r s .
Q. Now y o u a r e n o t g o i n g t o t e l l u s t h a t y o u w e r e
n o t h i n g b u t y o u n g c h i l d r e n i n t h i s p a r a d e w i t h y o u on —
A. On J u n e 12 —
Q. On J u n e 12 —
A. 1 9 6 3 , t h e r e w e r e a p p r o x i m a t e l y 150 t e e n a g e r s a s
I c a n r e m e m b e r .
Q. You s a y t h e r e w e r e 150 t e e n a g e r s ?
23
A. A p p r o x i m a t e l y 1 5 0 .
Q.
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A.
25
Q.
And y o u a r e s u r e t h e y w e r e a l l t e e n a g e r s ?
No, I c a n ’ t s a y t h a t I ’ m s u r e .
You s a y y o u t h i n k t h e y w e r e ?
607 .
( S . D. B a i l y , C r )
A. As f a r a s I — I c a n ’ t s a y
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Q. W e l l , w o u l d i t s u r p r i s e y o u i f I t o l d y o u t h a t
t h e r e w e r e 146 p e r s o n s a r r e s t e d on t h i s o c c a s i o n a n d t h a t t h e r e
w e r e 72 o f t h o s e p e r s o n s t h a t w e r e a d u l t s , a n d n o t t e e n a g e r s ?
A. Woul d t h a t s u r p r i s e me?
Q, Wou l d i t s u r p r i s e y o u ?
A. Y e s .
Q. I t w o u l d ?
A . Y e s .
Q. And i f t h e r e w e r e o n l y 74 o f t h e m t h a t w e r e
j u v e n i l e s , t h a t w o u l d o r w o u l d n o t s u r p r i s e y o u ?
A. 74?
Q. 7 4 , 72 a d u l t s a n d 74 j u v e n i l e s .
A, T h a t ’ s 74 j u v e n i l e s . I s a i d t e e n a g e r s . A l l t e e n
a g e r s a r e n ’ t j u v e n i l e s , 18 i s a t e e n a g e r .
Q. Now who was l e a d i n g t h i s p a r a d e on t h i s o c c a s i o n ?
A. I r e a l l y d o n ’ t kno w.
Q. W e l l , y o u s a i d y o u w e r e r i g h t o u t t h e r e i n t h e
f r o n t o f i t .
A. I was a b o u t t h e s e c o n d p e r s o n i n l i n e , b u t t h e
p e r s o n t h a t w as i n f r o n t o f me — I r e a l l y d o n ’ t k n ow.
Q. You w o u l d n ’ t know h i m i f y o u saw h i m?
A. I d o n ’ t k n o w . I w as j u s t m a r c h i n g b e h i n d . I
was f o l l o w i n g t h e l e a d e r .
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608 .
( . S . D. B a i l y , C r )
Q. W e l l , y o u s a y y ou g o t t o g e t h e r w i t h t h i s g r o u p o f
a b o u t 150 p e r s o n s a t t h e M a s o n i c T e m p l e . T h a t ’ s i n t h e t e n
h u n d r e d b l o c k o f L y n c h S t r e e t , i s i t n o t ?
A. Y e s , I t h i n k t h a t i s t r u e .
Q. A l l r i g h t , now w h a t w as t h e p u r p o s e o f g e t t i n g t o
g e t h e r w i t h t h e s e p e o p l e on t h i s o c c a s i o n ? What was y o u r s ?
A, What wa s t h e p u r p o s e ?
Q. T h a t ’ s r i g h t . What w as t h e p u r p o s e o f g o i n g i n
t h e s t r e e t ?
A. The p u r p o s e o f g o i n g i n t h e s t r e e t i s t o l e t some
o f t h e p e o p l e i n M i s s i s s i p p i a n d e v e r y w h e r e e l s e know t h a t we
a r e t i r e d o f b e i n g t r e a t e d l i k e s e c o n d c l a s s c i t i z e n s i n a
d e m o c r a t i c s o c i e t y .
Q. L e t me a s k y o u t h i s . You a r e f a m i l i a r w i t h L y n c h
S t r e e t , a r e y o u n o t ?
A. Y e s , I am f a m i l i a r w i t h i t .
Q. And y o u know t h a t i t i s one o f t h e m o r e h e a v i l y
t r a v e l e d t h o r o u g h f a r e s i n t h e c i t y o f J a c k s o n , d o n ’ t y o u ?
A , No .
Q. Do y o u know t h a t i t i s a w i d e s t r e e t , w i d e r t h a n
a n o r m a l s t r e e t ?
A. I t ’ s a w i d e s t r e e t .
Q. A w i d e s t r e e t . I t ’ s a m a i n a r t e r y o r t h o r o u g h
f a r e i n t h e c i t y o f J a c k s o n , y o u know t h a t d o n ’ t y o u ?
60 9 .
MR » BELL:
( S . D. B a i l y , C r )
May i t p l e a ne Y o u r H o n o r , s h e liar; a l r e a d y i n d i
c a t e d w h a t s h e knew a b o u t i t . We o b j e c t t o c o u n s e l t r y i n g t o
p u t w o r d s i n h e r m o u t h .
THE COURT:
O v e r r u l e t h e o b j e c t i o n .
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. You a l s o know t h a t t h a t s t r e e t i s o p e n t o t w o - w a y
a u t o m o b i l e o r v e h i c u l a r t r a f f i c , do y o u n o t ?
A . Y e s .
Q, And y o u a l s o know t h a t t h e r e a r e w i d e s i d e w a l k s on
b o t h s i d e s o f t h e s t r e e t f o r t h o s e p e r s o n s who a r e m e m b e r s o f
t h e p u b l i c who c a r e t o w a l k on t h e s i d e w a l k , d o n ’ t y o u ?
A . Y e s .
Q. And t h o s e s i d e w a l k s go b e s i d e t h a t s t r e e t a l l t h e
way down t o t h e p o i n t w h e r e y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d ?
A . Y e s .
Q. Now, w h e r e w e r e y o u when y o u w e n t o u t o f t h e
M a s o n i c T e m p l e w i t h t h e s e 150 p e o p l e , d i d y o u go on t h e s t r e e t
o r on t h e s i d e w a l k ?
A. On t h e s t r e e t .
Q. You w e n t i n t o t h e s t r e e t ?
A , Y e s .
Q. Now, how many o f y o u w e n t i n t o t h e s t r e e t ?
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6 10.
( S . D. B a i l y , C r )
You s a y t h e r e w e r e 150 o f y o u . I f iu a s k i n g how many o f t h e 1 5 0
w e n t i n t o t h e s t r e e t ?
A. A l l o f t h e m .
Q. A l l o f y o u w e n t i n t o t h e s t r e e t a n d t h a t b l o c k e d
t r a f f i c a n d c a u s e d d i s r u p t i o n s o f t h e u s e o f t h a t s t r e e t f o r
v e h i c u l a r t r a f f i c when y o u d i d t h a t , d i d n ’ t i t ?
A. I d o n ’ t know.
Q. You d o n ’ t k n o w . You r e a l l y d o n ’ t c a r e , do y o u ?
MR. BELL:
Y o u r H o n o r , I t h i n k s h e i s a b l e t o a n s w e r t h e
q u e s t i o n s —
THE COURT:
S h e i s on c r o s s e x a m i n a t i o n . I ’ l l o v e r r u l e t h a t ,
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. B i d y o u h a v e a n y r e g a r d f o r y o u r own s a f e t y when
y o u w e n t i n t o t h e s t r e e t i n t h e m a n n e r t h a t y o u d i d , a n d t h e
s a f e t y o f o t h e r s ?
A. I c a n s a y t h i s , t h a t I know f o r a f a c t t h a t t h e
m i n i s t e r s o f J a c k s o n h a d t a l k e d t o t h e May o r a b o u t o p e n i n g up
f a c i l i t i e s a n d ~~ t h a t d i d n ’ t s eem t o do a n y g o o d a t a l l .
Q. I ’ m n o t —— I ’ m n o t a s k i n g y o u a b o u t f a c i l i t i e s .
I ’ m a s k i n g y o u t o a n s w e r my q u e s t i o n , why y o u w e n t i n t o t h e
s t r e e t .
A. I w e n t i n t h e s t r e e t a n d — a n d n o t on t h e
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s i d e w a l k ?
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
l e a d e r ?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
l e a d e r . You
w as l e a d i n g
f o r t h e same
A.
Q.
o f d a y w a s t
A.
Q.
i t n o t ?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
I
( S . D. B a i l y , C r )
611.
Uh h u h .
I was f o l l o w i n g t h e l e a d e r .
You w h a t ?
I was f o l l o w i n g t h e l e a d e r .
Oh, j u s t f o l l o w i n g t h e l e a d e r ? Who was t h e
I d o n ’ t k n o w .
W e l l , who s u g g e s t e d t h i s p a r a d e ?
I d o n ’ t k n o w .
You d o n ’ t k n o w . You j u s t p l a y e d f o l l o w t h e
d o n ’ t know who s u g g e s t e d i t . You d o n ’ t know who
i t . How do y o u know t h a t t h e y w e r e e v e n p r o t e s t i n g
r e a s o n t h a t y o u w e r e p r o t e s t i n g ?
I know w h a t I was p r o t e s t i n g f o r .
So t h e 1 50 o f y o u w e n t i n t o t h e s t r e e t . What t i m e
h i s ?
I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r .
I t w as a b o u t 1 : 0 0 o ’ c l o c k i n t h e a f t e r n o o n , was
I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r .
You d o n ’ t know? Was i t d a y l i g h t o r d a r k ?
D a y l i g h t .
D a y l i g h t — y o u a r e s u r e o f t h a t ?
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612 .
( S . D. B a i l y , C r )
A. I am s u r e .
Q. A l l r i g h t . Now, y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d a t L y n c h a n d
P o i n d e x t e r S t r e e t , w e r e y o u n o t ?
A. L y n c h a n d R o s e .
Q. L y n c h a n d R o s e . And t h a t i s s e v e r a l b l o c k s f r o m
t h e M a s o n i c T e m p l e , i s i t n o t ?
A. S e v e r a l B l o c k s , - n o .
Q. How many b l o c k s i s i t ?
A. I c a n ’ t t r u t h f u l l y s a y .
Q. You c a n ’ t t r u t h f u l l y s a y w h e t h e r y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d
a t R o s e o r P o i n d e x t e r e i t h e r , c a n y o u ?
A. I c a n s a y i t was R o s e .
Q. A l l r i g h t , b u t i n a n y e v e n t , y o u w e r e i n t h e
m i d d l e o f t h e s t r e e t .
A. I was i n t h e s t r e e t .
Q. A l l r i g h t , a n d t h e r e s t o f y o u r c r o w d w as i n t h e
s t r e e t .
A. The 150 ~
Q. The 15 0 o f y o u w e r e i n t h e s t r e e t . Now, whe n y o u
w e r e - i n w h a t m a n n e r w e r e y o u s t o p p e d by t h e p o l i c e on t h i s
o c c a s i o n ?
A. On t h i s o c c a s i o n , t h e y w e r e - I w as a t t h e c o r n e r
o f L y n c h a n d R o s e , a n d t h e y a l l came up a n d s t a r t e d
b l o c k i n g t h e s t r e e t f r o m s i d e w a l k t o s i d e w a l k w i t h s t i c k s
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G13 .
S . D. R a i l y , C r .
a c r o s s t h i s w a y . .
Q. Do y o u know who w as i n command o f t h a t p o l i c e d e
t a i l ?
A. No, I d o n ’ t know a n y o f t h e p o l i c e m e n .
Q. C o u l d y o u t e l l h i s h o n o r w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e r e was
a p d i c e o f f i c e r w i t h a b u l l h o r n , l o u d s p e a k e r ?
A. The p e r s o n t h a t t o l d u s t o d i s p e r s e o r we w o u l d b e
a r r e s t e d h a d a l o u d s p e a k e r .
Q. Had a l o u d s p e a k e r , a l l r i g h t . Now, c o u l d y o u t e l l
me w h e t h e r o r n o t t h i s p e r s o n t h a t s t o p p e d y o u w i t h a l o u d
s p e a k e r o r b u l l h o r n a s k e d y o u on two o c c a s i o n s i f y o u h a d a
p e r m i t t o p a r a d e , o r m o r e ?
A. I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r . T h e o n l y t h i n g I r e m e m b e r h i m
s a y i n g w as t h a t i f we d i d n ’ t d i s p e r s e , we w o u l d b e a r r e s t e d .
Q. W e l l y o u a r e n o t s a y i n g h e d i d n ’ t a s k y o u w h e t h e r
o r n o t y o u h a d a p e r m i t t o p a r a d e .
A. I am n o t s a y i n g he d i d not , b u t I am s a y i n g I
d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r .
Q. W e l l , n ow, d i d y o u h a v e a p e r m i t t o p a r a d e on t h a t
o c c a s i o n ?
A. No , I d i d n ’ t .
Q. W e l l , now, h a d y o u made a n y e f f o r t t o o b t a i n one from
t h e Mayor o r t h e C i t y C o u n c i l o f t h e C i t y o f J a c k s o n ?
A. No, I h a d made no e f f o r t .
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6 U .
S . D. B a i l y , C r .
Q. And do y o u know w h e t h e r a n y b o d y i n y o u r g r o u p h a d
made a n y e f f o r t t o o b t a i n o n e ?
A. I c a n ’ t s a y .
Q. C a n ’ t s a y . W e l l , now, d i d n ’ t t h i s o f f i c e r a s k y o u ,
t h e n , on t h i s b u l l h o r n , d i d n ’ t he a s k y o u t o d i s p e r s e a n d move
on o u t o f t h e s t r e e t ?
A. He t o l d u s i f we d i d n ’ t d i s p e r s e we w o u l d be a r r e s t e d .
Q. And a n u m b e r o f p e o p l e i n t h a t g r o u p d i d d i s p e r s e ,
d i d n ’ t t h e y ?
A. I r e a l l y d o n ’ t k no w .
Q. He d i d g i v e y o u a n o p p o r t u n i t y t o d i s p e r s e a n d move
o u t o f t h e s t r e e t ?
A. L i k e I s a i d , he s a i d i f we d i d n ’ t d i s p e r s e we w o u l d
b e a r r e s t e d .
Q. D i d he a s k y o u t o d i s p e r s e a n d move o v e r on t h e s i d e
w a l k ?
A. He s a i d i f we d i d n ’ t d i s p e r s e we w o u l d be a r r e s t e d .
Q. A l l r i g h t . W e l l , d i d y o u d i s p e r s e ?
A. No .
Q. You s t a y e d i n t h e s t r e e t a n d r e f u s e d t o m o v e .
A. I w a s i n t h e s t r e e t .
Q. And t h e r e s t o f y o u t h a t w e r e a r r e s t e d , 146 o r so o f
y o u , d i d t h e same t h i n g a n d y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d .
A. Yes.
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Q. And t h i s was t h e s e c o n d t i m e y o u w e r e i n v o l v e d , w a s
i t n o t ?
A. P a r d o n ?
Q. T h i s was t h e s e c o n d t i m e y o u h a d b e e n i n t r o u b l e ?
A. T h i s was t h e s e c o n d t i m e t h a t I h a d -
Q. R i g h t .
MRS. MORRIS :
L e t h e r f i n i s h .
THE WITNESS:
The f i r s t t i m e t h a t I was a r r e s t e d i n ’ 61 t h e r e w e r e
mo r e c h a r g e s , b u t t h e s e c o n d t i m e , i n ’ 6 3 , t h e y s a i d m a r c h i n g
w i t h o u t a p e r m i t . T h a t w a s t h e c h a r g e .
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Now, d i d y o u h a v e a f l a g on t h i s o c c a s i o n ?
A. Y e s .
Q. W h e r e d i d y o u g e t t h a t f l a g f r o m ?
A. T h e y w e r e i n t h e M a s o n i c t e m p l e .
Q. W e l l , who i s s u e d t h e m t o y o u ?
A. N ob o dy i s s u e d t h e m t o me, t h e y w e r e h a n g i n g o v e r t h e
f l a t f o r m , a n d I w e n t o v e r a n d p i c k e d up o n e .
Q. Oh, t h e y w e r e t h e r e f o r y o u t o u s e .
A. T h e y w e r e t h e r e a n d I g o t o n e .
Q. And who p u t t h e m t h e r e ?
A. I really d o n ’t know.
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GIG .
S . D . B a i l y , C r .
Q. W e l l , who t o l d y o u t o g e t o n e o f t h e m ?
A. I h a v e a m i n d o f my o wn .
Q. W e l l , t h e r e i s s u c h a t h i n g a s s t e a l i n g , i f y o u w a l k
o v e r a n d g e t s o m e t h i n g w i t h o u t s o m e b o d y ’ s k n o w l e d g e .
A. I am s u r e t h e p e r s o n t h a t p u t i t t h e r e d i d n ’ t m i n d .
Q. W e l l , how a r e y o u s u r e ?
A. W e l l , t h e y w e r e t h e r e .
Q. Who p u t t h e m t h e r e ?
A. I c a n ’ t s a y .
Q. How w e r e y o u so s u r e t h e y w e r e t h e r e f o r y o u t o u s e
t h e n ?
A. W e l l , t h e y we r e t h e r e .
Q. So y o u t o o k o n e .
A. So I t o o k o n e .
Q. Now, w e r e y o u i n t h e same mood a s y o u r s i s t e r wa s on
t h i s o c c a s i o n w he n y o u w e r e w a l k i n g down t h e s t r e e t ?
MRS, MORRIS:
Y o u r h o n o r , I o b j e c t t o t h a t . She d i d n ’ t know w h a t
mood h e r s i s t e r was i n .
MR. TRAVIS:
I w i l l w i t h d r a w t h e q u e s t i o n , y o u r h o n o r , a n d a s k h e r
t h i s .
Q. Wh at w o u l d y o u d e s c r i b e y o u r mood a s b e i n g wh e n y o u
w e n t i n t o t h i s meet ing on t h e I 2 t . h o f J u n e ?
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617 .
( S . B . B a i l y , C r )
A. I was h u r t . L i k e I s a i d b e f o r e , o n e o f o u r c i v i l
r i g h t s l e a d e r s h a d b e e n s h o t a n d i t h a d r e a l l y d i s t u r b e d me a
l o t a n d I w a n t e d t h e w o r l d a n d t h e p e o p l e i n M i s s i s s i p p i t o know
t h e way I f e l t .
Q. Now y o u s a i d t h a t y o u saw some p d i c e o f f i c e r s t r i k e
some o t h e r f e m a l e i n t h i s g r o u p on t h i s o c c a s i o n ?
A. T h a t i s t r u e .
Q. Now d i d y o u — who was t h i s f e m a l e ?
A. H e r name i s B a r b a r a H a y n e s .
Q. B a r b a r a w h a t ?
A. H a y n e s .
Q. H a y n e s ? Now d i d y o u o r B a r b a r a H a y n e s make a n y com
p l a i n t t o t h e c i t y o f J a c k s o n , o r a n y o f i t s o f f i c i a l s o f t h e
p o l i c e d e p a r t m e n t a b o u t t h i s p a r t i c u l a r e p i s o d e o f t h e p o l i c e
s t r i k i n g B a r b a r a H a y n e s ?
A. I d i d n ’ t , b u t I d o n ’ t know w h a t s h e d i d .
Q. Bo y o u know w h e t h e r o r n o t a c o m p l a i n t was made t o
t h e J u s t i c e D e p a r t m e n t o r t h e F . B . I . ?
A. I d o n ’ t know w h a t s h e d i d .
Q. Or a n y o t h e r a g e n c y o f t h e F e d e r a l G o v e r n m e n t ?
A. I d o n ’ t kno w.
Q. D i d a n y m e mb e r s o f t h o s e a g e n c i e s t a l k t o y o u a b o u t
t h i s e p i s o d e ?
A. Par don?
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( S . D. B a i l y , C r )
Q. Has a n y r e p r e a e n t a t i v e o f t h e J u s t i c e D e p a r t m e n t o r
a n y b r a n c h o f t h e F e d e r a l G o v e r n m e n t t a l k e d t o y o u a b o u t t h a t
p a r t i c u l a r e p i s o d e t h a t y o u r e f e r r e d t o ?
A. (No a u d i b l e a n s w e r . )
Q. As f a r a s yo u know t h e r e was no c o m p l a i n t made t o a n y
a u t h o r i t i e s a b o u t t h a t ?
A. As f a r a s I know.
Q. Now, l e t me a s k y o u t h i s . I j u s t w a n t t o a s k y o u ,
y o u ’ v e b e e n t o a n u m b e r o f t h e s e m a s s m e e t i n g s a n d d e m o n s t r a
t i o n s , h a v e y o u n o t ?
A. I ’ v e b e e n t o q u i t e a f e w m a s s m e e t i n g s .
Q. H a v e y o u h a d a n o c c a s i o n t o s e e t h i s l i t e r a t u r e t h a t
t h e J a c k s o n m o v e m e n t , N . A . A . C . P . , a n d o t h e r s h a v e p l a c e d i n t o
c i r c u l a t i o n . I h a n d y o u E x h i b i t D - 3 t o t h e — f o r i d e n t i f i c a
t i o n t o t h e w i t n e s s E v e r s .
MR. BELL:
Y o u r H o n o r , I t h i n k t h i s i s c o m p l e t e l y w i t h o u t t h e
r e a l m o f d i r e c t e x a m i n a t i o n . We h a v e no o b j e c t i o n t o h e r
a n s w e r i n g i f s h e k n o w s , b u t n o t h i n g o f t h e s e m a t t e r s w as b r o u g h t
o u t on d i r e c t .
THE COURT :
I know t h a t . I ’ v e s e e n t h a t r u l e a p p l i e d a n d n o t
a p p l i e d by t h e same J u d g e , a p p l i e d t o me, a n d t h e n w i t h o n e o f
my w i t n e s s e s h e w o u l d n ’ t a p p l y i t a n d I f r a n k l y t h i n k i t i s
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G 19 .
( S . D . B a i l y , C r )
b e t t e r n o t t o a p p l y t h a t r u l e t h a n t o a p p l y i t . I t h i n k y o u g e t
a l o n g f a s t e r .
MR. BELL:
I a g r e e , Y o u r H o n o r , a n d a s k y o u p e r m i t me t o r e m i n d
y o u s o m e t i m e l a t e r d u r i n g t h e t r i a l .
THE COURT:
I b e l i e v e t h a t ’ s r i g h t . I l i k e t o f o l l o w t h e r u l e s ,
b u t I ’ v e s e e n i t w o r k i n g b o t h w a y s a n d I b e l i e v e I l i k e n o t t o
a p p l y t h e r u l e r a t h e r t h a n t o a p p l y i t .
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. The q u e s t i o n w a s , I b e l i e v e , h a v e y o u e v e r s e e n a n y
o f t h o s e c i r c u l a r s a t a n y o f t h e s e m e e t i n g s o r e l s e w h e r e ?
A. Y e s .
Q. And h a v e y o u h e l p e d d i s t r i b u t e t h i s t y p e o f c i r c u l a r
a r o u n d t h r o u g h t h e c i t y o f J a c k s o n ?
A. Y e s .
Q. And who a s k e d y o u t o d i s t r i b u t e t h e s e c i r c u l a r s o r
who g a v e t h e m t o y o u f o r d i s t r i b u t i o n ?
A. T h e r e w a s some p e o p l e a t o n e o f t h e m a s s m e e t i n g s
t h a t I h a v e b e e n t o -
THE COURT:
Keep y o u r v o i c e up p l e a s e .
MR. TRAVIS:
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( S . D. B a i l y , C r )
Q. Now w as t h i s a n N . A . A . C . P . m a s s m e e t i n g t h a t y o n a i e
t a l k i n g a b o u t ?
A. C o m mu n i t y m a s s m e e t i n g o f t h e J a c k s o n m o v e m e n t .
Q. A l l r i g h t , i t w as a J a c k s o n mo v eme nt m a s s m e e t i n g .
Now, I d o n ’ t w a n t t o l e a d y o u , y o u j u s t t e l l me who w as r e s p o n s *
i b l e — I ’ m n o t t r y i n g t o t r a p y o u , I j u s t w a n t t o know —- y o u
w e r e a t t h i s m e e t i n g - - I w a n t t o know w e r e t h e s e l e a d e r s , w ho
s p o n s o r e d t h e s e m a s s m e e t i n g s ?
A. Mas s m e e t i n g s ? J a c k s o n m o v e m e n t .
Q. Bo y o u know who t h e J a c k s o n mo v e me n t w a s , w h a t c o n
s t i t u t e d — w h a t g r o u p c o n s t i t u t e d t h e J a c k s o n m o v e m e n t ?
A. T h e N a t i o n a l A s s o c i a t i o n f o r t h e A d v a n c e m e n t o f C o l o r e d
P e o p l e .
"20 .
Q. T h a t w a s t h e N .A .A .C .P .
A. SNCC, CORE, o t h e r o r g a n i z a t i o n s .
Q. W e l l , t h a t w as a m a t t e r o f g e n e r a l k n o w l e d g e a mong t h e
p e o p l e who a t t e n d e d , w as i t n o t , t h a t t h e N . A . A . C . P . a n d t h e s e
o t h e r s w e r e s p o n s o r i n g t h e s e m a s s m e e t i n g s ?
A. I r e a l l y c o u l d n ’ t s a y a b o u t o t h e r p e o p l e .
Q. W e l l , y o u knew i t ?
A. (No a u d i b l e a n s w e r )
Q. A l l r i g h t , t h e y h a d a s k e d t h a t t h e s e c i r c u l a r s —
some o f t h e s p e a k e r s h a d a s k e d a t t h e s e m e e t i n g s t h a t t h e s e
c i r c u l a r s b e d i s t r i b u t e d b y y o u a n d o t h e r s , d i d t h e y n o t ?
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( S . D. B a i l y , C r )
A. We j u s t v o l u n t e e r e d .
Q. They a s k e d f o r v o l u n t e e r s ? And y o u d i d v o l u n t e e r ?
A. Y e s .
Q. A l l r i g h t . Now I h a n d y o u E x h i b i t D~5 f o r i d e n t i f i c a
t i o n o f w i t n e s s E v e r s a n d a s k i f y o u c a n i d e n t i f y t h a t a s one o f
t h e s e p a m p h l e t s t h a t we a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t . You u n d e r s t a n d t h a t ’ ;
a p h o t o s t a t i c c o p y o f o ne j u s t l i k e t h e one y o u h a d i n y o u r h a n d ,
A. Y e s .
Q. Ha ve y o u d i s t r i b u t e d t h i s t y p e p a m p h l e t ? I h a n d y o u
E x h i b i t D~1 f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n t o w i t n e s s H u r l e y a n d a s k y o u i f
t h a t d o e s n o t r e p r e s e n t a s i m i l a r t y p e p a m p h l e t a s t h e s e o t h e r s ?
A. I h a v e s e e n a l o t o f p a m p h l e t s , b u t ~«
Q. Wer e t h e y a l l o f t h e same g e n e r a l n a t u r e a s t h e s e
t h r e e t h a t I h a v e h a n d e d y o u h e r e ?
A. No, n o t a l l o f t h e m . T h e r e a r e a l o t o f p a m p h l e t s .
Q. I am s p e a k i n g j u s t o f t h e s e b o y c o t t s .
A. T h e r e h a v e b e e n p a m p h l e t s a g a i n s t —
Q. A l l r i g h t . Now, I h a n d y o u E x h i b i t B - 6 f o r i d e n t i f i
c a t i o n t o w i t n e s s E v e r s a n d a s k y o u w h e t h e r o r n o t t h a t l e t t e r
w as c i r c u l a t e d i n a n y o f y o u r m e e t i n g s ?
A. I ’ v e n e v e r s e e n a l e t t e r l i k e t h i s b e f o r e .
Q. Y o u ’ v e n e v e r s e e n a l e t t e r l i k e t h a t b e f o r e ?
A. No .
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522 .
( S . D. B a i l y , C r )
W i l l y o u p l e a s e s p e a k l o u d e r , we c a n ’ t h e a r y o u o v e r
here .
A. I h a v e n ’ t s e e n a l e t t e r l i k e t h a t .
MR. TRAVIS:
I ’ m s o r r y J u d g e , I ’ l l t r y t o s p e a k l o u d e r .
THE COURT :
L e t h e r s e e t h e s e t h i n g s a n d t h e n s t a n d b a c k a n d
s h e ’ l l a n s w e r y o u a l i t t l e b i t c l e a r e r .
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. I h a n d y o u now E x h i b i t B - 7 f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n t o t h e
w i t n e s s E v e r s .
A. Y e s , I h a v e s e e n t h i s o n e b e f o r e .
Q. I s t h a t a p a m p h l e t t h a t y o u h a v e d i s t r i b u t e d a l s o ?
A. I h a v e s e e n o n e l i k e t h i s b e f o r e , b u t I d o n ’ t know
w h e t h e r I h a v e d i s t r i b u t e d i t o r n o t . I h a v e s e e n t h i s b e f o r e .
Q, Bo y o u know w h e r e t h e y came f r o m ?
A. Bo I know w h e r e t h e y came f r o m ?
Q. W e l l , l e t me a s k y o u t h i s , do y o u know who p u t t h e m
o u t o r p u b l i s h e d t h e m ? T h a t a p p e a r s t o b e a ne ws b u l l e t i n o f
t h e J a c k s o n m o v e m e n t . I am a s k i n g yo u i f y o u know w h e r e i t wa s
p u b l i s h e d ?
A. Bo I know w h a t p l a c e i t w as p u b l i s h e d ?
Q. W e l l , do y o u ?
A. No .
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623 .
( S . D . B a i l y , C r )
Q. Bo y o u know who p u b l i s h e d i t ?
A. Who w r o t e t h i s a n d t y p e d i t u p? I h a v e no i d e a .
Q. You h a v e s e e n i t ?
A. I h a v e s e e n i t .
Q. D i d y o u g e t i t a t o n e of t h e s e m a s s m e e t i n g s ? J u s t
how d i d y o u come i n t o p o s s e s s i o n o f y o u r c o p y o f i t ?
A. I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h e r e I s e e n i t b e f o r e . I r e m e m b e r
I h a v e s e e n o n e l i k e t h i s b e f o r e , p r o b a b l y a t h o me .
Q. W e l l now, y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h a t t h i s a l l o c c u r r e d , a
b o y c o t t o f t h e s e s t o r e s , d i d y o u n o t ? T h e s e t h r e e e x h i b i t s
t h a t I j u s t s ho we d y o u ? You u n d e r s t o o d t h a t t h a t was w h a t
c a u s e d t h e b o y c o t t o f t h o s e s t o r e s , d i d y o u n o t ?
A. Y e s .
Q. T h a t i s t h e way y o u u n d e r s t o o d i t ?
MR. TRAVIS:
T h a n k y o u .
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. I h a v e two q u e s t i o n s . B a c k t o t h e J u n e 1 2 t h p r o c e s
s i o n t h a t y o u w e r e i n , w h i c h y o u d e s c r i b e d a s b e i n g i n t h e
s t r e e t , y o u k new a t t h a t t i m e t h a t o t h e r g r o u p s h a d b e e n
a r r e s t e d on t h e s i d e w a l k s i n J a c k s o n , d i d n ’ t y o u ?
A. Yes, I did.
MR. TRAVIS:
624 .
( S . D. B a i l y , R e d r )
I o b j e c t t o t h a t q u e s t i o n u n l e s s s h e h a s a p e r s o n a l
k n o w l e d g e o f a n y t h i n g e l s e h a p p e n i n g o n t h e s t r e e t s o f t h e c i t y
o f J a c k s o n , Y o u r H o n o r .
THE COURT :
Of c o u r s e , s h e c o u l d n ’ t a n s w e r i t e x c e p t f r o m h e r own
k n o w l e d g e a n d I a s s u m e t h a t s h e i s a n s w e r i n g t h a t s h e knows o f
h e r own k n o w l e d g e . I ’ l l l e t y o u c r o s s e x a m i n e h e r on t h a t .
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. T h i s i s E x h i b i t D~3 f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n f o r E v e r s —
THE COURT :
L e t me a s k y o u t h i s t o s h o r t e n t h e p r o c e e d i n g s a l i t t l e
b i t . Do y o u know o f y o u r own p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e t h a t p e o p l e
w e r e a r r e s t e d i n J a c k s o n , y o u r p e o p l e , on s i d e w a l k s p r i o r t o
y o u r a r r e s t i n t h e s t r e e t ?
A. Y e s , I kno w.
Q. You know t h a t o f y o u r own k n o w l e d g e ? You saw i t , y o u
w e r e t h e r e ?
A. Wa s I t h e r e ? No .
Q. S o me b od y t o l d y o u t h e n ?
A. I s a y , y o u k n o w , I r e m e m b e r I wa s w a t c h i n g t h e d emo n
s t r a t i o n s a n d t h e y w e r e on t h e s i d e w a l k , b u t a s f a r a s s o m e b o d y
i n t h e d e m o n s t r a t i o n t e l l i n g me t h a t t h e y w e r e a r r e s t e d f o r —
on t h e s i d e w a l k , n o , b u t I h a v e s e e n t h e d e m o n s t r a t i o n , i t was
f t h e y w e r e on t h e s i d e w a l k on L y n c h S t r e e t .
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( S . B . B a i l y , R e d r )
Q. You saw t h e m a r r e s t e d ?
A. T h e y w e r e w a l k i n g down t h e s i d e w a l k g o i n g down L y n c h
S t r e e t , I s e e n t h e m .
Q. My q u e s t i o n w as d i d y o u s e e p e o p l e t h a t w e r e w a l k i n g
down t h e s i d e w a l k d e m o n s t r a t i n g a r r e s t e d ?
A. I s e e n t h e m w a l k i n g down t h e s t r e e t on t h e s i d e w a l k ,
b u t t h e y w e r e down f u r t h e r when t h e p o l i c e a r r e s t e d t h e m .
Q. Bu t t h e y w e r e on t h e s i d e w a l k ?
A. T h e y w e r e o n t h e s i d e w a l k when X saw t h e m .
THE COURT:
I ’ l l o v e r r u l e t h e o b j e c t i o n .
MR. TRAVIS:
S h e s t i l l d i d n ’ t s a y t h a t s h e saw t h e m a r r e s t e d , i f
y o u w i l l p a r d o n me , Y o u r H o n o r .
THE COURT:
I ’ l l l e t y o u a s k h e r t h a t .
MRS. MORRIS:
Q I h a v e D—5 a n d D*-1! f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n o f t h e w i t n e s s
C h a r l e s E v e r s . Ha ve y o u e v e r s e e n t h e s e p a r t i c u l a r o n e s b e f o r e ?
A. I ’ v e s e e n o n e j u s t l i k e t h e m .
Q. Ha ve y o u s e e n t h e s e w i t h —
A. No .
Q. Bo t h e y s a y t h e same t h i n g t h a t t h e o n e s y o u h a v e
s e e n s a y ?
625 .
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6 26 .
( S . D. B a i l y , R e c r )
A. I ' v e s e e n some t h a t s a y t h e same t h i n g .
MRS. MORRIS:
I h a v e no f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s .
RECROSS EXAMINATION
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. I j u s t w a n t t o a s k y o u t h i s , y o u w e r e d i s c u s s i n g t h e
a r r e s t s ; y o u s a i d t h a t y o u h a d p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e t h a t t h e r e
w e r e a r r e s t s on t h e s t r e e t s i n t h e c i t y o f J a c k s o n , o t h e r t h a n
y o u r a r r e s t , on t h e 1 2 t h o f J u n e , t h i s p a s t y e a r 1 9 6 3 . D i d y o u
s e e , y o u r s e l f , p e r s o n a l l y , a n y o f t h e s e a r r e s t s ?
A. I n t h e s t r e e t ?
Q. A n y w h e r e , o t h e r t h a n t h e o n e s y o u w e r e i n v o l v e d i n ,
h a v e y o u s e e n a n y b o d y a r r e s t e d ?
A. Yes .
Q. W h e r e , a n d w he n?
A. The d e m o n s t r a t i o n i n 1 9 6 3 , I t h i n k i t w as J u n e 3 l s t .
Q. When?
A. J u n e — n o t J u n e 31 -— t h e d a y t h a t — t h e l a s t d a y o f
s c h o o l . I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r t h e d a t e . I t w as t h e l a s t d a y o f
s c h o o l ,
Q. May 3 l s t ?
A. Y es .
Q. What s c h o o l wa s t h i s , t h e l a s t d a y o f w h a t s c h o o l ?
A. A l l p u b l i c s c h o o l s ——
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627 .
( S . D . B a i l y , R e c r )
Q. I u n d e r s t a n d . T h a t was on F a r i s h S t r e e t ?
A. On F a r i s h S t r e e t .
Q. I n t h e 400 b l o c k o f F a r i s h S t r e e t ? Now, d i d y o u s e e
a n y b o d y a r r e s t e d on t h i s o c c a s i o n ?
A. Y e s .
Q. W h e r e w e r e y o u a r r e s t e d — w e r e y ou a r r e s t e d ?
A. No , I w a s n ' t .
Q. Wh er e w e r e y o u ?
A. I was s t a n d i n g a t a c h u r c h , i n f r o n t o f t h e c h u r c h .
Q. A l l r i g h t , t h e r e i s o n l y o n e c h u r c h , I b e l i e v e , i n t h a t
a r e a . Wou l d y o u t e l l t h e C o u r t w h a t c h u r c h i t i s .
A. I d o n ’ t know t h e name o f i t .
Q. You h a v e n e v e r b e e n t o t h i s c h u r c h b e f o r e ? And h a v e
y o u b e e n t o i t s i n c e ?
A. I w as t h e r e .
Q. Oh, y o u w e r e t h e r e ?
A. On t h e s t e p s .
Q. Now, t h e r e was a l a r g e n u m b e r o f p e o p l e p r e s e n t on
t h i s o c c a s i o n , w as t h e r e n o t ?
A. Y e s .
Q. Now, t e l l t h e C o u r t , w e r e t h e y i n t h e s t r e e t l i k e y o u
w e r e ?
A. T h e y w e r e i n t h e s t r e e t .
Q. A l l r i g h t , a n d o f c o u r s e F a r i s h S t r e e t i s n o t a s l a r g e
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62P .
( 3 . D. D a i l y , R o c r )
a s t r e e t a s L y n c h S t r e e t , i s i t ?
A. I d o n ’ t k n o w .
Q. W e l l , on t h i s o c c a s i o n d i d t h e s e p e o p l e t h a t w e r e
a r r e s t e d come o u t o f t h e c h u r c h t h a t y o u w e r e i n ?
A. No, I d i d n ’ t s a y I w as i n t h e c h u r c h . I s a i d I was
s t a n d i n g or. t h e s t e p s .
Q. A l l r i g h t , w h e r e d i d t h e s e p e o p l e t h a t w e r e a r r e s t e d
come f r o m ?
A. I d o n ’ t k n o w .
Q. You d o n ’ t k n o w, b u t t h e y w e r e a l l t o g e t h e r . T h e 300
p e o p l e t h a t y o u d i d s e e a r r e s t e d on t h i s o c c a s i o n w e r e a l l t o
g e t h e r , w e r e t h e y n o t ?
A, T h e y w e r e i n t h e s t r e e t .
Q. T h e y w e r e i n t h e s t r e e t , a n d t h e y w e r e n ’ t on t h e . s i d e
w a l k ?
A. No, t h e y w e r e n ’ t on t h e s i d e w a l k .
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. D i d y o u s e e them, a t t h e t i m e t h e y w e r e a r r e s t e d ?
A. When t h e y w e r e b e i n g a r r e s t e d .
Q. And a t t h a t t i m e t h e y w e r e n o t on t h e s i d e w a l k ?
A. T h e y w e r e n ’ t on t h e s i d e w a l k .
THE COURT:
I s t h e r e a n y t h i n g f u r t h e r ?
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629 .
( B . L , C a t c h i n g s , D r )
S t e p a s i d e p l e a s e .
MRS. BENNIE L . CATCHINGS
b e i n g c a l l e d a s a w i t n e s s by t h e p l a i n t i f f a n d a f t e r f i r s t
h a v i n g b e e n d u l y s w o r n , t e s t i f i e d a s f o l l o w s :
DIRECT EXAMINATION
MR . BELL:
Q. Wou l d y o u s t a t e y o u r f u l l name a n d a d d r e s s ?
A. M r s . B e n n i e L . C a t c h i n g s , 715 P a c e S t r e e t , J a c k s o n ,
Mi s s i s s i p p i . *■
Q. How l o n g h a v e y o u b e e n a r e s i d e n t o f J a c k s o n , M r s .
C a t c h i n g s ?
A . F i f t e e n y e a r s .
Q. A r e y o u a N e g r o ?
A . Y e s , I am.
Q. Ha ve y o u e v e r b e e n a r r e s t e d w h i l e p r o t e s t i n g r a c i a l
d i s c r i m i n a t i o n ?
A . Y e s , I h a v e .
Q. W o u l d y o u t e l l t h e C o u r t a b o u t t h e c i r c u m s t a n c e s
w h i c h l e d t o y o u r a r r e s t ?
A. On J u n e t h e 7 t h I l e f t t h e M a s o n i c T e m p l e i n a s t a t i o n
wa g o n d r i v e n by t h e R e v e r e n d Ed K i n g . We r o d e t o t h e c o r n e r o f
P e a r l a n d C o n g r e s s S t r e e t s
Q. Who> i s we?
four, three mothers and oneA. We Negroes, a bunch of us,
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630 .
( B . L . C a t c h i n g s , D r )
f a t h e r .
Q. A r e y o u a m o t h e r ?
A . Y e s , I am.
Q. What a r e y o u r c h i l d r e n ’ s n a m e s ?
A. Tommy L e e C a t c h i n g s , M a y b e l l C a t c h i n g s , S h i r l e y Ann
C a t c h i n g s , S h a r o n F a y C a t c h i n g s a n d W i l b u r C a t c h i n g s .
Q. Now, y o u c a n c o n t i n u e w i t h y o u r s t o r y .
A. We g o t o u t o f t h e s t a t i o n w a g o n . We w a l k e d ~~
Q. W h e r e d i d y o u g e t o u t o f t h e s t a t i o n w a g o n ?
A. On t h e c o r n e r o f P e a r l a n d C o n g r e s s S t r e e t s .
Q. I s t h a t i n t h e d o w n t o w n s e c t i o n o f J a c k s o n ?
A. Y e s , i t i s .
Q. A l l r i g h t .
A. We w a l k e d up t h e w e s t s i d e o f P e a r l g o i n g t o t h e C i t y
H a l l . We w e r e w a l k i n g s i n g l e f i l e , a b o u t t h r e e f e e t a p a r t . We
w a l k e d on t h e C i t y H a l l s t e p s , t h e n we w a l k e d a b o u t t h r e e o r f o u
f e e t a p a r t a n d s t o o d i n a s i l e n t p o s i t i o n . I w a s c a r r y i n g a n
A m e r i c a n f l a g a n d t h e o t h e r s w e r e c a r r y i n g p l a c a r d s a r o u n d t h e i r
n e c k s .
Q. Now w h a t w as y o u r p u r p o s e i n d o i n g t h a t ?
A. W e l l , a s N e g r o e s we w a n t e d t o l e t t h e c i t i z e n s and t h e
w o r l d know t h a t we N e g r o e s a r e n o t s a t i s f i e d w i t h t h e c o n d i t i o n s
t h a t we w e r e l i v i n g i n . We w a n t e d t o e x p r e s s o u r f e e l i n g s , t h a t
we w a n t e d b e t t e r c o n d i t i o n s .
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7 631 .
( B . L . C a t c h i n g s , Dr )
Q. And y o u s t o o d w h e r e ?
A. On t h e C i t y H a l l s t e p s .
Q. And a b o u t how f a r a p a r t w e r e y o u ?
A. A b o u t t h r e e o r f o u r f e e t a p a r t .
Q. Wer e p e o p l e g o i n g up a n d down t h e s t e p s a b l e t o do s o?
A . Y e s , t h e y w e r e .
Q. D i d p e r s o n s who w e r e g o i n g by a t t h a t t i m e , d i d t h e y
show a n y r e a c t i o n o r make a n y c o m me n t s t o y o u ?
A. No, I d i d n ’ t s e e a n y b o d y s a y i n g a n y t h i n g , n o b o d y was
t a l k i n g , t h e y w as j u s t c o n s t a n t l y m o v i n g a l o n g .
Q. And t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d ?
A. We s t o o d t h e r e a b o u t t h r e e o r f o u r m i n u t e s a n d C a p t a i n
Ray came up a n d a s k e d u s i f i t w as s o m e b o d y i n t h e C i t y H a l l we
w a n t e d t o s e e .
Q. Do y o u know who C a p t a i n R a y i s , w h a t o r g a n i z a t i o n he
r e p r e s e n t s ?
A. He i s t h e C a p t a i n o f t h e p o l i c e f o r c e o f J a c k s o n , a n d
h e a s k e d u s i f we w a n t e d t o s e e t h e May o r o r a n y b o d y i n t h e C i t y
H a l l we w a n t e d t o t a l k w i t h . We d i d n ’ t s a y a n y t h i n g b e c a u s e t h e
s i g n s t h a t we w e r e c a r r y i n g t o l d w h a t we w e r e a s k i n g f o r a n d I
w as c a r r y i n g a n A m e r i c a n f l a g a n d t h e o t h e r m o t h e r s was c a r r y i n g
p l a c a r d s .
Q. Woul d y o u i n d i c a t e t o u s w h a t t h o s e p l a c a r d s s a i d ?
A. One p l a c a r d r e a d ” No c h i l d i s f r e e u n t i l a l l c h i l d r e n
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( B . L . C a t c h i n g s , D r )
a r e f r e e ’* a n d t h e o t h e r p l a c a r d r e a d "We w a n t e q u a l i t y , " a n d I
d i s r e m e m b e r w h a t t h e o t h e r o n e s a i d . 1 c a n ’ t q u o t e t h e o t h e r
o ne a s I s a i d .
Q. T h e n , y o u s a y C a p t a i n Ray a s k e d y o u w h e t h e r o r n o t y o u
w a n t e d t o s e e a n y o n e ? What was y o u r r e s p o n s e t o t h a t ?
A. We d i d n ’ t s a y a n y t h i n g .
Q. And t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d ?
A. We s t o o d t h e r e w i t h o u r h e a d s bowed i n s i l e n t p r a y e r .
Q. How l o n g d i d y o u s t a n d t h e r e ?
A. A b o u t a m i n u t e m a y b e , maybe n o t t h a t l o n g , b u t a n y w a y
l o n g e n o u g h f o r h i m t o t e l l u s t h a t we h a d t o move o n . We s t i l l
s t o o d w i t h o u r h e a d s b o w e d . He t o l d u s t o move on a g a i n a n d wc
s t i l l s t o o d w i t h o u r h e a d s bowed i n s i l e n t p r a y e r . The t h i i d
t i m e h e a s k e d u s t o move a n d wc s t i l l s t o o d , a n d t h e n h e t o l d u s
we w e r e u n d e r a r r e s t .
Q. What h a p p e n e d t h a t t i m e ?
A. He p u t u s u n d e r a r r e s t a n d a s k e d u s o u r n a m e s a n d t h e y
c a l l e d a p a d d y w a g o n a n d p u t u s i n t h e p a d d y w a g o n a n d s t a r t e d
t o j a i l , a n d h e c a l l e d o u t t h e o t h e r man a n d t h e p o l i c e m a n
s t o p p e d .
Q. Who d i d t h i s ?
A. C a p t a i n Kay a n d t h e May o r was t a l k i n g on t h e . loud
s p e a k e r .
Q, How d i d h e do t h i s ?
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633 .
(R . L . C a t c h i n g n , D r )
A. He was j u s t t a l k i n g o u t a nd t h e s p e a k e r was o u t s i d e
a n d h e was a s k i n g i f we w a n t e d t o s e e h i m a n d C a p t a i n Kay h a d t h i
p a d d y wa g on b a c k up a n d o p e n t h e d o o r so we c o u l d h e a r t h e me s
s a g e w h i c h he was s a y i n g . We s t i l l d i d n ’ t s a y a n y t h i n g .
Q. Any why d i d n ’ t y o u s a y a n y t h i n g a t t h a t t i m e ?
A. B e c a u s e we s t o o d t h e r e l o n g e n o u g h f o r t h e m t o r e a d
t h e c a r d s t h a t we w e r e c a r r y i n g , t h e p l a c a r d s , a n d t h e y w e r e
e x p r e s s i n g t h e t h i n g s t h a t we w o u l d h a v e t o s a y t o h i m .
Q. I s e e . Wer e y o u t a k e n t o j a i l ?
A. We w e r e t a k e n t o j a i l .
Q. When w e r e y o u r e l e a s e d ?
A. W e d n e s d a y , a b o u t 1 2 : 0 0 o ’ c l o c k .
Q. Do y o u know w h e t h e r y o u w e r e c h a r g e d w i t h v i o l a t i o n o f
a n y l a w ?
A. O b s t r u c t i n g t r a f f i c . I d o n ’ t know e x a c t l y w h e t h e r
t h a t w a s i t .
MR. WATKINS:
I f t h e C o u r t p l e a s e , we o b j e c t t o t h a t f o r t h e r e a s o n
t h a t t h i s w i t n e s s a p p a r e n t l y d o e s n ’ t know a n d t h e r e c o r d w o u l d
b e t h e b e s t e v i d e n c e a s t o w h a t s h e w as c h a r g e d w i t h .
THE COURT :
I f s h e knows I ’ l l l e t h e r a n s w e r , b u t I t h i n k t h e
r e c o r d w o u l d b e b e s t .
MR. WATKINS:
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634 .
(B . L , C a t e l l i n g s , D r )
I t h i n k s h e h a s i n d i c a t e d t h a t s h e d o e s n ’ t k n o w .
THE COURT :
S h e c a n a n s w e r t h e q u e s t i o n . Go a h e a d .
MR . BELL:
Q. When d i d y o u i n d i c a t e t h a t y o u w e r e r e l e a s e d ?
A. W e d n e s d a y , t h e 8 t h o f J u n e a t 1 2 : 0 0 O’ c l o c k .
Q. Was t h a t t h e n e x t d a y ?
A . T h a t 1 s r i g h t .
Q. Do y o u know w h e t h e r b a i l b o n d h a d t o b e p l a c e d f o r
y o u r r e l e a s e ?
A. The l a w y e r g o t u s r e l e a s e d . I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h a t i t
was when we w e n t t o c o u r t .
Q. Wer e y o u t r i e d ?
A. We w e r e t r i e d a n d c o n v i c t e d .
Q. Do y o u know w h a t y o u w e r e c o n v i c t e d o f ? Do y o u know
w h e t h e r o r n o t y o u w e r e f i n e d , o r s e n t e n c e d t o j a i l sera , e n c e s ?
A. We w e r e f i n e d $ 3 0 0 . 0 0 a n d t h r e e m o n t h s i n j a i l .
Q. A r e y o u c e r t a i n a b o u t t h a t ?
A. I ’ m n o t t o o s u r e .
Q. Do y o u know w h e t h e r y o u r c a s e i s c l o s e d ?
MR. WATKINS:
I f t h e C o u r t p l e a s e , t h a t i s t h e b a s i s o f my o b j e c
t i o n t o t h i s t y p e o f t e s t i m o n y .
THE COURT :
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635 .
( B . L . C a t c h i n g s , D r )
I s u s t a i n t h e o b j e c t i o n .
MR. BELL:
Q. Have y o u b e e n i n v o l v e d , — I ’ l l a s k y o u , i s o ne o f
d a u g h t e r s S h i r l e y C a t c h i n g s ?
A . Yes .
Q. D i d on a b o u t May 3 l s t y o u h a v e o c c a s i o n t o go t o t h e
f a i r g r o u n d s t o p r o c u r e h e r r e l e a s e ?
A . J u n e 1 s t .
Q. W i l l y o u t e l l t h e C o u r t w h a t h a p p e n e d on t h a t d a y ?
A, I w e n t down t o t h e f a i r g r o u n d s w h e r e S h i r l e y
C a t c h i n g s w a s i n t h e b u i l d i n g , E x h i b i t B u i l d i n g , w h e r e t h e y h a d
f i r s t s e t up f o r t h e c h i l d r e n t h a t t h e y h a d i n j a i l , so I a s k e d
t h e o f f i c e r i f I c o u l d c a r r y h e r some c l o t h e s . He t o l d me i f I
w o u l d c a r r y h e r h o me , h e w o u l d r a t h e r me c a r r y h e r h o m e . He
s a i d , d i d y o u come a f t e r h e r a n d I s a i d , w e l l I j u s t b r o u g h t h e r
some c h a n g e o f c l o t h e s . He s a y s , w e l l y o u c a n g e t h e r i f y o u
w a n t t o . I s a i d , I ’ m n o t s u r e s h e w a n t s t o go home j u s t y e t , I
h a v e n ’ t t a l k e d t o h e r y e t . He s a i d , w e l l , y o u go i n a n d t a l k
t o h e r . I d i d . I w e n t i n a n d t a l k e d w i t h h e r a n d s h e s a i d , n o .
She s a i d , I came h e r e w i t h t h e o t h e r g i r l s a n d I w i l l go o u t
w i t h t h e m , so I w e n t b a c k a n d t o l d h i m w h a t s h e s a i d . He s a i d ,
w e l l , w e ’ l l g e t h e r , so t h e y w e n t i n a n d I s a i d , I d o n ’ t w a n t
y o u t o f o r c e h e r . I s a i d , b e c a u s e I ’ m n o t g o i n g t o f o r c e h e r ,
I s a y , s h e ’ l l come o u t i n t i m e . So t h e y w e n t i n t h e b u i l d i n g
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636 .
( B . L . C a t c h i n g s , D r )
a n d S h i r l e y w e n t i n t h e r e s t r o o m . When s h e w e n t i n t h e r e s t r o o m
s he c l o s e d t h e d o o r a n d l o c k e d i t . T h e y a s k e d h e r t o come o u t .
S h i r l e y d i d n ’ t come o u t a n d h e t o l d me t o c a l l h e r , I s a i d ,
w e l l i f s h e d o e s n ’ t w a n t t o go home I ’ m n o t g o i n g t o make h e r go
I ’ l l come b a c k a n d g e t h e r l a t e r . He s a i d , o h , w e ’ l l g e t h e r ,
so t h e y f o r c e d t h e d o o r o p e n a n d w e n t i n a n d g o t h e r o u t . One
p o l i c e m a n on o n e s i d e o f h e r a n d one on t h e o t h e r s i d e , so t h e y
t w i s t e d h e r a r m b a c k w a r d . E a c h p o l i c e m a n h a d h e r by t h e h a n d
a n d t w i s t e d i t b a c k o f h e r n e c k , a n d I a s k e d t h e m n o t t o t w i s t
h e r a r m . She w as s c r e a m i n g , so I p u l l e d h e r a r m o u t o f h i s h a n d
The t h i r d p o l i c e m a n was w a l k i n g b e h i n d me . He h i t — s t r u c k me
f r o m b e h i n d . When I d i d n ’ t l o o k b a c k t o s e e who h e wa s o r no
b a d g e n u m b e r o r a n y t h i n g .
Q. B i d t h i s l i c k k n o c k y o u t o t h e g r o u n d ?
A. No i t d i d n ’ t k n o c k me t o t h e g r o u n d , j u s t s t u n t e d me
a n d made me k i n d o f d i z z y h e a d e d a n d t h e Y o u t h J u d g e was i n
t h e r e a l s o .
Q. Now, on t h e d a y y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d a t C i t y H a l l , I
t h i n k y o u s a i d J u n e 7 t h , when y o u t o o k y o u r p o s i t i o n on t h e
C i t y H a l l s t e p s , d i d y o u n o t i c e w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e r e w e r e a n y
p o l i c e m e n i n t h i s a r e a ?
A. T h e r e w e r e a l o t o f p o l i c e m e n , a l l a r o u n d on b o t h
s i d e s a n d down i n t h e f r o n t on C o n g r e s s S t r e e t .
Q. Wo ul d y o u b e a b l e t o e s t i m a t e a p p r o x i m a t e l y now many?
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637 .
(B . L . C a t c h i n g s , D r )
A. W e l l , I d i d n ’ t , by u s , — w i t h o u r h e a d s bowed we
c o u l d n ’ t d e t e r m i n e how many p o l i c e m e n w e r e t h e r e b e c a u s e we
d i d n ’ t l o o k u p .
Q. Would y o u e s t i m a t e t h e r e was a l a r g e n u m b e r r a t h e r t h a i
a s m a l l n u m b e r ?
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. D i d y o u — i s i t c o r r e c t o r n o t , y o u w e r e p l a c e d u n d e r
a r r e s t b e f o r e y o u h e a r d t h e Mayor s p e a k i n g o v e r t h e l o u d s p e a k e r ?
A . Y e s , we w e r e .
Q. As a m a t t e r o f f a c t y o u w e r e i n t h e , — d i d y o u
i n d i c a t e y o u w e r e i n t h e p a d d y w a g o n a t t h a t t i m e ?
A. We w e r e i n t h e p a d d y w a g o n a n d on o u r way t o t h e j a i l ,
a l m o s t t o P e a r l S t r e e t when t h e Mayor c a l l e d o n t h e m i k e a n d
t h e y s t o p p e d a n d b a c k e d u p .
MR, BELL:
No f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s .
CROSS EXAMINATION
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. What wa s y o u r p u r p o s e i n g o i n g down t o t h e C i t y H a l l ?
A. W e l l , we w a n t e d t h e May o r a n d o t h e r c i t i z e n s o f
J a c k s o n , M i s s i s s i p p i t o know t h a t we w e r e n o t s a t i s f i e d w i t h t h e
c o n d i t i o n s o f t h e N e g r o e s .
Q. A n d , d i d y o u h e a r C a p t a i n Ray when h e came o u t a n d
a s k e d y o u i f y o u h a d a n y g r i e v a n c e t h a t y o u w a n t e d t o t a l k o v e r
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G 38 .
( B . L . C a t c h i n g s , C r )
w i t h t h e May o r?
A. C a p t a i n R a y was s t a n d i n g a t t h e f o o t o f t h e s t e p s when
he a s k e d u s .
Q. You h e a r d h i m s a y i t ?
A . Y e s , I d i d .
Q. Why d i d n ’ t y o u go i n a n d t a l k t o t h e M a y o r ?
A. W e l l , o t h e r N e g r o e s h a d b e e n i n a n d t a l k e d w i t h h i m
a n d h a d made no p r o g r e s s . We d i d n ’ t h e a r a n y t h i n g t h e y came o u t
w i t h f r o m t h e M a y o r ’ s o f f i c e t h a t w a s b e n e f i c i a l t o t h e N e g r o .
Q. How d i d y o u f i g u r e t h a t s t a n d i n g o u t s i d e o f h i s o f f i c e
w o u l d b e n e f i t t h e N e g r o ?
A. We t h o u g h t t h e s i g n s t h a t we w e r e c a r r y i n g w o u l d l e t
t h e p e o p l e a n d t h e Mayor know w h a t we w a n t e d w i t h o u t u s t a l k i n g .
Q. How w e r e y o u s u r e t h a t t h e Mayor saw t h e s i g n s ?
A. W e l l , I w a s n ’ t s u r e h e saw t h e s i g n s , b u t o t h e r
l e a d i n g c i t i z e n s t h a t was a l l a r o u n d , a n d t h e r e w e r e so many o f
t h e m .
Q. As a m a t t e r o f f a c t , t h e r e was q u i t e a c r o w d a r o u n d
t h e r e , w a s n ’ t t h e r e ?
A. Down on t h e s i d e w a l k o f e a c h s t r e e t .
Q. Q u i t e a c r o w d c o l l e c t e d down on P a s c a g o u l a S t r e e t
c l o s e t o w h e r e y o u w e r e s t a n d i n g , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
A. I s e e n a f e w p e o p l e s t a n d i n g on t h e j a i l s t e p s a n d
s t a n d i n g on t h e s i d e w a l k t o my l e f t .
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639 .
(B , L . C a t c h i n g s , C r )
Q. So y o u f e l t y o u w e r e a c c o m p l i s h i n g m o r e by s t a n d i n g
o u t t h e r e t h a n y o u w e r e g o i n g i n t o t a l k t o t h e M a y o r , l e t h i m
r e a d t h e s i g n s ?
A. W e l l , I f e l t l i k e we c o u l d g e t i t o v e r t o m o r e p e o p l e
b e c a u s e i f we w e n t i n t o t a l k t o t h e May o r n o b o d y w o u l d know we
t a l k e d t o h i m .
Q. So y o u r p u r p o s e o f c o m i n g down was n o t t o i m p r e s s t h e
M a y o r , b u t w as t o i m p r e s s t h e o t h e r c i t i z e n s o f J a c k s o n , i s t h a t
i t ?
A. T h a t ’ s p a r t o f i t , i n c l u d i n g t h e M a y o r .
Q. T h e n y o u h e a r d C a p t a i n Ray w he n h e came up t o y o u a n d
o r d e r e d y o u t o move on o u t , d i d y o u n o t ?
A. Beg p a r d o n ?
Q. You h e a r d C a p t a i n Ray when he g a v e y o u t h e o r d e r t o
move o n , d i d y o u n o t ?
A. Y e s , I d i d .
Q. You d i d n o t o b e y h i s o r d e r , d i d y o u ?
A, No, we s t o o d t h e r e .
Q. And t h e r e w e r e f o u r o f y o u t o g e t h e r , w e r e t h e r e n o t ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. I b e l i e v e y o u w e r e c h a r g e d a n d t r i e d i n t h e C i t y
C o u r t ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. T h a t t r i a l , I b e l i e v e i t was t h e n e x t d a y , w a s i t
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•o4 0 .
( B . L . C a t c h i n g s , C r )
n o t ?
A. I d i s r e m e m b c r w h a t d a y i t w a s .
Q. Wo ul d t h e 6 t h o f J u n e be c o r r e c t ?
A. I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h a t d a y i t w a s on t h a t we w e r e
t r i e d .
Q. I t was a d a y o r so l a t e r , w a s n ’ t i t ?
A. I t was a f t e r we came o u t o f j a i l .
Q. D i d y o u h a v e a l a w y e r a t t h e t r i a l ?
A. Y e s , we d i d .
Q. What w as h i s name?
A. L a w y e r H a l l , C a r s i e H a l l .
Q. Now, C a r s i e H a l l , a l a w y e r h e r e a t t h e b a r o f M i s s i s
s i p p i , he r e p r e s e n t e d y o u ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q, A n d , h e h a d t h e a u t h o r i t y t h a t a l a w y e r u s u a l l y h a s
i n r e p r e s e n t i n g h i s c l i e n t s , d i d he n o t ?
A. Y e s , h e d i d .
Q. We r e y o u c o n v i c t e d i n C i t y C o u r t ?
A. We w e r e .
Q. D i d y o u a p p e a l t h e c a s e t o t h e C o u n t y C o u r t ?
A . Y e s , we d i d .
Q. Do y o u know w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d t o t h e c a s e up t h e r e ?
A. I h a v e n ’ t g o t a n y n o t i c e o f a n y k i n d .
Q. D o n ’ t y o u know t h a t i t i s a f a c t t h a t y o u r l a w y e r ,
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C 4 1 .
(B . L . C a t c h i n g s , C r )
C a r s i e H a l l , e n t e r e d a p l e a o f n o l o c o n t e n d e r e o n t h e 1 4 t h d a y
o f O c t o b e r 1 9G 3, p a i d t h e f i n e i n y o u r b e h a l f a n d y o u r c a s e i s
c o n c l u d e d , d o n ’ t y o u k n o w t h a t ?
A. I d i d n ’ t know i t .
Q, W i t h r e g a r d t o t h e i n c i d e n t down a t t h e t e m p o r a r y j a i l ,
y o u s a i d i t was on F r i d a y , May 3 1 , i s t h a t when y o u w e n t down t o
g e t S h i r l e y o u t o f j a i l ?
A . J u n e 1 s t .
Q. The n e x t d a y ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. Now, when they w e n t i n t o g e t S h i r l e y o u t o f t h e r e s t
r oom y o u w e r e b a c k i n t h e b u i l d i n g , w e r e y o u n o t ?
A. I w a s s t a n d i n g i n t h e b u i l d i n g .
Q. Who e l s e w as w i t h y o u ?
A. T h r e e p o l i c e o f f i c e r s a n d t h e Y o u t h J u d g e .
Q. The Y o u t h J u d g e , do y o u know t h a t t o b e J u d g e C a r l
G u e r n s e y ?
A. T h a t ’ s h i m .
Q. Was M r . J o h n O s b o r n e , a y o u t h c o u n s e l o r , w i t h y o u t h e n !
A . N o , h e w a s n ’ t .
Q. He w a s n o t . Was M r . R o an t h e r e a t t h e t i m e ?
A. I d o n ’ t r e c a l l t h e n a m e .
Q. Now, t h i s s e r i e s o f e v e n t s w h e r e t h e p o l i c e m a n h a d t o
go i n t h e r e s t r o o m t o g e t S h i r l e y a n d b r i n g h e r o u t , w h e r e y o u
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G / 2 .
( B . L . C a t c h i n g s , C r )
s a y t h e y w e r e t w i s t i n g h e r a r m a n d t h a t y o u t r i e d t o p r e v e n t i t
a nd g o t s t r u c k on t h e b a c k o f t h e h e a d , a l l o f t h i s h a p p e n e d i n
f r o n t o f J u d g e C a r l G u e r n s e y , d i d i t n o t ?
A o T h a t ’ r i g h t .
Q. He was s t a n d i n g t h e r e l o o k i n g a t i t ?
A. He w as t h e r e .
Q. How s e v e r e a b l o w d i d y o u g e t ?
A . W e l l , i t w a s r e a l p a i n f u l a n d I h a d t o go t o t h e
d o c t o r a n d I h a d t o h a v e X - r a y s made o f i t .
Q. W h i c h d o c t o r d i d y o u go t o ?
A . Dr . W i l l i a m s .
Q. D o c t o r who?
A. D r . W i l l i a m s , D r . W. E . W i l l i a m s .
Q. W i l l i a m s ? Have y o u e v e r s e e n , — -
MR. BELL:
B e f o r e we go i n t o t h e r u n - d o w n a s t o t h e s e h a n d b i l l s
t h a t t h i s w i t n e s s h a s s e e n , I t h i n k i t i s a b o u t t i m e we a s k e d
t h e d e f e n d a n t t o a t l e a s t s t a t e w h a t do t h e s e t h i n g s h a v e t o do
w i t h t h e c a s e i n s o f a r a s t h e w i t n e s s i s c o n c e r n e d . U n l e s s t h e r e
i s some s h o w i n g t h a t t h e s e h a n d b i l l s a r e i l l e g a l p e r s e , I
c a n ’ t s e e t h a t i t i s p a r t i c u l a r l y r e l e v a n t t o t h e c a s e w h e t h e r
o r n o t a n y i n d i v i d u a l w i t n e s s , p a r t i c u l a r l y o n e who h a s n ’ t
t e s t i f i e d c o n c e r n i n g t h e m on d i r e c t e x a m i n a t i o n h a s s e e n t h e m
o r h a s p r i n t e d t h e m o r n o t .
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B. L . C a t c h i n g s , C r .
THE COURT :
W e l l , o f c o u r s e , t h e y a r e j u s t i n t h e r e c o r d f o r
i d e n t i f i c a t i o n a n d h e w o u l d c e r t a i n l y b e o b l i g e d t o show t h a t
t h e y w e r e b o t h r e l e v a n t a n d c o m p e t e n t a n d m a t e r i a l wh e n t h e y a r e
o f f e r e d , so I ’ l l o v e r r u l e y o u r o b j e c t i o n a t t h i s t i m e * You w i l l
be h e a r d t h o u g h w h e n t h e y a r e o f f e r e d i n e v i d e n c e b e c a u s e I d o n ’ ;
s e e w h a t t h e r e l e v a n c y i s e i t h e r .
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. A r e y o u a member o f t h e J a c k s o n C h a p t e r o f t h e NAACP?
A . Y e s , I am.
MR. BELL:
____________________________________________043. [
She h a s a l r e a d y a n s w e r e d t h a t , Y o u r H o n o r . We a r e
g o i n g t o g e n e r a l l y o b j e c t t o a l l p e r s o n s e x c e p t l e a d e r s o f t h e
NAACP h a v i n g t o g i v e a n s w e r t o t h a t q u e s t i o n . I t h i n k we h a v e
a l o t o f S u p r e m e C o u r t c a s e s on t h a t p a r t i c u l a r m a t t e r . Now i f
t h e y a r e o f f i c e r s , t h a t i s o n e t h i n g , b u t i f t h e y a r e i n d i v i d u a l s
I t h i n k t h a t i s s o m e t h i n g e l s e a g a i n .
THE COURT:
Go a h e a d . S h e ’ s a l r e a d y a n s w e r e d t w i c e .
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. H a v e y o u a t t e n d e d a n y o f t h e m e e t i n g s o f t h e J a c k s o n
C h a p t e r o f t h e NAACP?
A. Y e s , I h a v e .
THE COURT
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044 .
B. L . C a t c h i n g s , Cr
S p e a k up p l e a s e .
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Now, a f t e r t h o s e m e e t i n g s h a v e y ou h a d o c c a s i o n t o
s e e a n y t y p e o f c i r c u l a r o r h a n d b i l l w h i c h w o u l d e n c o u r a g e
me mb er s o f t h e N e g r o r a c e n o t t o make p u r c h a s e s on C a p i t o l S t r e e j ;
h e r e i n J a c k s o n ?
A. W e l l , I h a v e s e e n q u i t e a f e w b i l l s i n t h e o f f i c e o f
d i f f e r e n t p l a c e s a n d i n g r o c e r y s t o r e s m a y b e .
Q. I h a n d y o u h e r e E x h i b i t 3 t o t h e w i t n e s s E v e r s a n d a s k
y o u i f y o u h a v e s e e n a n y t y p e o f c i r c u l a r s u c h a s t h a t ?
A. Some w as l e f t i n my p l a c e o f b u s i n e s s . T h a t ' s w h e r e
I w o r k .
Q. Wh er e do y o u w o r k ?
A. At t h e C a t c h i n g s G r o c e r y .
THE COURT:
S p e a k up p l e a s e .
THE WITNESS:
A. C a t c h i n g s G r o c e r y .
Q. You a r e i n t h e g r o c e r y b u s i n e s s , a r e y o u ?
A. I ' m w o r k i n g w i t h my s i s t e r , — my s i s t e r - i n - l a w .
THE COURT:
Y o u ' r e n o t t a l k i n g l o u d e n o u g h , k e e p y o u r v o i c e u p .
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. You a n d y o u r s i s t e r - i n - l a w own a g r o c e r y b u s i n e s s , i s
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64 5 .
B. L . C a t c h i n g s , Cr .
t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A . T h a t 1 s r i g h t .
Q. Now, do y o u know a s a m a t t e r o f f a c t t h a t t h e S t a r
G r o c e r y a n d J i t n e y J u n g l e s t o r e s h e r e i n t h e c i t y o f J a c k s o n
h a v e a t o ne t i m e b e e n on a l i s t , — a b o y c o t t l i s t w h i c h was
p u s h e d by t h e NAACP?
A. I h a v e known t h a t t h e J i t n e y J u n g l e a n d t h e S t a r w e r e
o n , one a s k e d t h e N e g r o e s t o s h o p w h e r e r e c o g n i z e d a s a d u l t s ,
a n d n o t j u s t b o y a n d g i r l .
Q. I n o t h e r w o r d s , p a m p h l e t s w e r e p u t o u t u r g i n g t h e
N e g ro n o t t o p u r c h a s e a t t h e J i t n e y J u n g l e , i s n * t t h a t r i g h t ?
A. U n l e s s t h e y w e r e r e c o g n i z e d . .
Q. Now, d i d t h a t h e l p y o u r b u s i n e s s a n y ? B i d i t g i v e y o u
a n y mo re b u s i n e s s ?
MR. BELLi
We o b j e c t , Y o u r H o n o r . U n l e s s t h e y h a v e some
a f f i r m a t i v e e v i d e n c e s h o w i n g m o r e t h a n m e r e l y t h a t
N e g r o e s w e r e a s k e d n o t t o s h o p w h e r e t h e y c o u l d n t t be t r e a t e d
c o u r t e o u s l y , t h i s o t h e r i n d i c a t i o n i s e n t i r e l y —
THE COURT s
O v e r r u l e d .
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. I n o t h e r w o r d s , y o u a r e i n d i r e c t c o m p e t i t i o n w i t h
o n e o f t h e s e p a r t i e s w h i c h y o u r own g r o u p h a s b o y c o t t e d , i s
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B. L . C a t c h i n g s , C r .
t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A. Beg p a r d o n ?
Q. You a r e i n t h e same t y p e o f b u s i n e s s a s o n e o f t h e s e
b u s i n e s s e s , t h e J i t n e y J u n g l e . The J i t n e y J u n g l e a n d y o u a r e i n
t h e same b u s i n e s s , t h a t i s s e l l i n g f o o d . Y o u r b u s i n e s s i s t h e
same k i n d o f b u s i n e s s a s t h e J i t n e y J u n g l e w h i c h y o u r NAACP i s
a s k i n g t h a t t h e N e g r o e s b o y c o t t , i s n * t t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A. T h a t t s c o r r e c t .
Q. Now, y o u h a v e made a n a f f i d a v i t a n d f i l e d i t i n t h i s
c a u s e o n J u n e 2 4 t h , I b e l i e v e , d i d y o u n o t , a b o u t t h e o c c u r
r e n c e s o n May 3 l s t a t t h e t e m p o r a r y j a i l ?
A. On J u n e 1 s t , I d i d .
Q. D i d y o u make a n a f f i d a v i t a n d s w o r n s t a t e m e n t ?
A. I d i d .
Q. Y:ou g a v e i t t o y o u r l a w y e r , y o u r l a w y e r , J a c k Y o u n g ,
d i d y o u n o t ?
A . Y e s , I d i d .
6 46 .
MR. NICHOLS:
T h a t w i l l b e a l l , Y o u r H o n o r
THE COURT :
A n y t h i n g f u r t h e r ?
MR. BELL:
I d o n * t t h i n k s o , Your Honor
THE COURT:
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647.
A l l r i g h t , w e ’ l l t a k e a r e c e s s u n t i l 9 : 0 0 o t c l o c k i n
t h e m o r n i n g . I w i l l be h e r e a t 9 i n t h e m o r n i n g .
MR. BELL:
I w o u l d l i k e t o s a y a t t h i s t i m e t h a t we h a v e n o t f o r
g o t t e n y o u r i n s t r u c t i o n o f l a s t w e e k a s f a r a s t r y i n g t o s t a y
w i t h i n t h e t i m e l i m i t s , b u t I t h i n k i t i s f a i r t o s a y a t t h i s
t i m e t h a t we h a v e n ’ t b e e n a b l e t o k e e p a n y w h e r e n e a r o u r e s t i
ma ted n u m b e r o f w i t n e s s e s t h a t we w a n t e d t o p u t on t o d a y .
THE COURT :
You g o t o n l y e i g h t , I b e l i e v e .
MR • BELL:
I h ad s u p p o s e d , Y o u r H o n o r , t h a t we w o u l d d o u b l e t h a t
n um b e r , —
THE COURT :
You h a v e b e e n k i n d o f s l o w . What i s t h e d i v i s i o n o f
t i m e on i t , Mr . T h o m a s , do y o u h a v e a t o t a l on i t ?
MR. THOMAS:
The t i m e ?
MR. BELL:
Our t i m e t h a t we h a v e k e p t i n d i c a t e s t h a t we h a v e
a p p r o x i m a t e l y 13 0 m i n u t e s , w h i l e t h e c r o s s e x a m i n a t i o n was 170
m i n u t e s .
THE COURT:
I t h i n k t h e c r o s s e x a m i n a t i o n h a s b e e n a l i t t l e b i t
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l o n g e r t h a n d i r e c t . W e l l , w e ’ l l s e e a b o u t t h a t .
MR. THOMAS:
Two h o u r s a n d f o r t y - f i v e m i n u t e s f o r t h e d e f e n d e n t
and two h o u r s a n d f o u r t e e n m i n u t e s f o r t h e p l a i n t i f f .
THE COURT:
A l l r i g h t , we w i l l t a k e a r e c e s s u n t i l 9 : 0 0 o ’ c l o c k i n
t h e m o r n i n g .
TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 4 , 1 9 6 4 , 9 : 0 0 A.M.
MR. JIMMIE LEE BELL
b e i n g c a l l e d a s a w i t n e s s by t h e p l a i n t i f f a n d a f t e r f i r s t
h a v i n g b e e n d u l y s w o r n , t e s t i f i e d a s f o l l o w s :
DIRECT EXAMINATION
MRS. MORRIS:
Q, Wou l d y o u p l e a s e g i v e y o u r name a n d y o u r a d d r e s s ?
A. J i m m i e Lee B e l l .
Q. Now y o u w i l l h a v e t o t a l k l o u d e r , —
THE COURT:
And mo r e d i s t i n c t l y , yo u s a y Emma L e e B e l l ?
A. J i m m i e L e e B e l l .
Q. J i m m i e Le e B e l l , a l l r i g h t .
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. W h e r e w e r e y o u b o r n ?
A. I w as b o r n i n S u n f l o w e r C o u n t y .
Q. How l o n g h a v e y o u l i v e d i n J a c k s o n ?
A. J u s t a b o u t a l l my l i f e .
o' G .
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J . L . B e l l , D r .
Q. Now, on J u n e 3 , 1 9 6 3 , w e r e y o u i n v o l v e d i n a n y demon
s t r a t i o n t h a t l e d t o y o u r a r r e s t ?
A. Y e s , I w a s .
Q. What w e r e y o u d o i n g ?
A. I was p e a c e f u l l y p r o t e s t i n g a g a i n s t r a c i a l s e g r e g a t i o n
on C a p i t o l S t r e e t .
Q. Wh er e w e r e y o u on C a p i t o l S t r e e t ?
A. I n f r o n t o f J . C. P e n n e y ’ s .
Q. Were y o u p i c k e t i n g ?
A . Yes .
THE COURT:
P a r d o n me, y o u a r e n o t s p e a k i n g v e r y d i s t i n c t l y , I
c a n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d y o u v e r y w e l l . You w e r e i n f r o n t o f w h a t ?
A . J . C . P e n n e y ’ s .
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. How many p e o p l e w e r e w i t h y o u ?
A. T h e r e was s i x o f u s .
Q. Now, how f a r a p a r t w e r e y o u ?
A. A b o u t two f e e t .
Q. Wh er e w e r e y o u w a l k i n g , on w h a t p o r t i o n o f t h e s i d e
wa lk?
A. More t o t h e o u t s i d e o f t h e s i d e w a l k .
Q. Now, w as p e d e s t r i a n t r a f f i c a b l e t o p a s s ?
A . Y e s , I t h i n k s o .
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Q. Wer e t h e r e p e o p l e c o m i n g a n d g o i n g ?
A. Yes .
Q. How l o n g w e r e y o u o u t t h e r e b e f o r e y ou w e r e a r r e s t e d ?
A. A b o u t f i v e m i n u t e s .
Q. A nd , u n d e r w h a t c i r c u m s t a n c e s w e r e y o u a r r e s t e d ?
A. Not h a v i n g a p e r m i t .
Q. D i d a n y b o d y a s k y o u f o r a p e r m i t ?
A. No .
Q. T h e y j u s t p l a c e d yo u u n d e r a r r e s t ?
A. I m e a n , C a p t a i n Ray a s k e d me, do y o u h a v e a p e r m i t .
Q. P e r m i t f o r w h a t ?
A. F o r p a r a d i n g , a n d we d i d n ’ t h a v e o n e so he p l a c e d u s
u n d e r a r r e s t .
Q. D i d y o u know w h a t y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d f o r ?
A , M a r c h i n g w i t h o u t a p e r m i t .
Q. I t h i n k t h a t i s i n c o r r e c t , b u t i t c a n be g o t t e n f r o m
t h e r e c o r d .
THE REPORTER:
What was y o u r a n s w e r t o t h a t q u e s t i o n "Do y o u know
what y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d f o r ? "
THE COURT:
I b e l i e v e yo u c a n s p e a k mo r e d i s t i n c t l y t h a n t h a t ,
j u s t t a k e c a r e a n d t a k e y o u r t i m e . S p e a k w i t h t h e p u r p o s e o f
t r y i n g t o make u s u n d e r s t a n d y o u . T h a t ’ s t h e w h o l e p u r p o s e i n
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J . L. Bell, Dr
b e i n g h e r e . How many p e o p l e d i d yo u s a y w e r e w i t h y o u .
A. F i v e .
Q. F i v e .
MRS. MORRIS:
L e t me s t r a i g h t e n o u t my r e ma, r k . I s e e a c c o r d i n g
my n o t e s t h e 'c h a r g e was p a r a d i n g w i t h o u t a p e r m i t . He was
p e r f e c t l y r i g h t , I i n d i c a t e d t h e r e was some e r r o r t h e r e .
Q. How l o n g w e r e y o u i n j a i l ?
A. A b o u t f o u r d a y s .
Q. And h a v e y o u b e e n t r i e id on t h e s e c h a r g e s?
A. Yes , I h a v e .
Q. I n M u n i c i p a l C o u r t o r C o u n t y C o u r t ?
A. Cou n t y C o u r t .
Q. How was C o u r t d e t e r m i n e d ?
A. (No a n s w e r )
Q. Wer e y o u f o u n d g u i l t y o r n o t g u i l t y ?
A. Not g u i l t y .
Q. Not g u i l t y ? When was t h i s ?
MR. WATKINS:
May i t p l e a s e t h e C o u r t , we a r e g o i n g t o o b j e c t t o
t h i s l i n e o f t e s t i m o n y . The r e c o r d i s t h e b e s t e v i d e n c e a n d
t h i s w i t n e s s o b v i o u s l y d o e s n * t know w h a t h a p p e n e d t o h i m i n
C o u r t .
THE COURT
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J . L . B e l l , D r .
I b e l i e v e we a r e w a s t i n g a l o t o f t i m e on t h a t , t o o ,
I ’ l l s u s t a i n t h a t o b j e c t i o n . I b e l i e v e i t i s so much e a s i e r t o
have t h e r e c o r d s b e c a u s e I ’ m i m p r e s s e d t h a t t h e s e p e o p l e d o n ’ t
u n d e r s t a n d i n so many i n s t a n c e s j u s t e x a c t l y w h a t h a p p e n e d , a n d
I b e l i e v e t h a t i s a w a s t e o f t i m e . I ’ l l s u s t a i n t h e o b j e c t i o n .
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Now, J i m m i e , you a r e a N e g r o , a r e n ’ t y o u ?
A . I am.
Q. And w e r e t h e p e o p l e w i t h y o u a t t h a t t i m e N e g r o e s ?
A. A l l o f t h e m .
Q. Were y o u c a r r y i n g a n y s i g n s ?
A. Y e s , we w e r e c a r r y i n g s i g n s a n d , —
Q. S i g n s a n d w h a t ?
A. S i g n s , a n d t h e A m e r i c a n f l a g .
Q. Now, w h a t d i d t h e s i g n s s a y ?
A. I d o n ’ t kno w.
Q. Now y o u a l s o p a r t i c i p a t e d i n t h e J u n e 1 2 t h p r o c e s s i o n ,
d i d n ’ t y o u ?
A. N o .
Q. You d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r t h a t ?
A. N o .
MRS. MORRIS:
I h a v e no f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s .
:____________________________________________________________________________r;Z2 .
CROSS EXAMINATION
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■:>S3.
J . L . B e l l , C r .
MR. TRAVIS:
Q„ How o l d d i d y o u s a y yo u w e r e ?
A. 1 8 ,
Q.
were w i t h
A.
Q.
i s t h a t c
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
S t r e e t i s
A.
Q.
abou t two
A.
Q«
s i d e w a l k ?
A.
and t h e n
Now, t h i s was on J u n e 3 r d , 1 9 6 3 , l a s t y e a r t h a t you
t h e s e f i v e o t h e r p e r s o n s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
Yes s i r .
And y o u w e r e on C a p i t o l S t r e e t a r o u n d J . C. P e n n e y * s ,
o r r e c t ?
Yes s i r .
And y o u w e r e , — do y o u r e c a l l w h a t t i m e o f d a y i t was
I t was a b o u t , I w o u l d s a y 1 : 0 0 o ’ c l o c k .
J u s t a t t h e end o f t h e n o o n h o u r ?
T h a t i s c o r r e c t .
A l l r i g h t , t h a t i s a b u s y t i m e o f d a y on C a p i t o l
n ’ t i t , a l o t o f p e o p l e a r e on t h e s t r e e t .
I w o u l d s a y s o .
A l l r i g h t , a n d y o u s a y t h e s i x o f y o u w e r e w a l k i n g
f e e t a p a r t ?
T h a t i s c o r r e c t .
What w e r e y o u d o i n g j u s t w a l k i n g i n c i r c l e s on t h e
• )
No, we w a l k e d d o wn , e v e r y b o d y w o u l d do a n a b o u t f a c e
come b a c k .
Q. What d i d t h e p e o p l e on t h e s t r e e t h a v e t o do when y o u
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J . L . B e l l , C r .
d i d a n a b o u t f a c e ?
_____________________________________________________________ _______________
A. T h e y d i d n ’ t h a v e t o do a n y t h i n g .
Q. J u s t g e t o u t o f t h e way?
A. No, t h e y d i d n ’ t g e t o u t o f o u r w a y , I mean we w e r e
j u s t c o m i n g a n d g o i n g . We w e r e n ’ t b l o c k i n g t r a f f i c .
Q. What w e r e y o u p i c k e t i n g , w e r e yo u p i c k e t i n g o r w h a t ,
or p a r a d i n g , o r j u s t w h a t w e r e y o u d o i n g ?
A. P i c k e t i n g .
Q. P i c k e t i n g . Were y o u c a r r y i n g s i g n s o r s o m e t h i n g ?
A. Y e s , we w e r e .
Q. What w e r e y o u p i c k e t i n g f o r o r a g a i n s t ?
A. What w e r e we p i c k e t i n g f o r ?
Q. Or a g a i n s t ?
A. We w e r e p i c k e t i n g a g a i n s t t h i s s e g r e g a t i o n h e r e i n
t h i s c i t y .
Q. J u s t g e n e r a l l y o r d i d i t h a v e s o m e t h i n g t o do w i t h
t h e J . C . P e n n e y s t o r e t h a t yo u w e r e p i c k e t i n g i n f r o n t o f ?
A. I w o u l d s a y i t was mor e g e n e r a l .
Q. A l l r i g h t , now y o u a r e s u r e t h a t y o u r c a s e was t h r o w n
out o f c o u r t , a r e y o u n o t ?
A . Y e s .
Q. And t h a t t h i s i s t h e C o u n t y C o u r t o f t h e F i r s t D i s t r i
ove r h e r e a t t h e H i n d s C o u n t y C o u r t H o u s e ?
A. Yes
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THE COURT
J . L . R e l l , Cr .
D i d y o u g e t h i s a n s w e r ?
THE REPORTER:
I u n d e r s t o o d h i m t o s a y , y e s . .
THE COURT:
H e ’ s j u s t g r u n t i n g . We’ l l h a v e t o s w e a r h i m on h i s
g r u n t s i f h e ’ s n o t g o i n g t o s p e a k .
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Now, w h a t d i d yo u do when t h e p o l i c e a p p r o a c h e d y o u ?
A. When t h e y a p p r o a c h e d me I k e p t m a r c h i n g .
Q. You k e p t w a l k i n g ? A r e y o u s u r e ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. When d i d y o u s i t down on t h e s t r e e t o r l a y down on t h e
s t r e e t ?
A. When he s a i d we w as u n d e r a r r e s t I j u s t s i t d o w n .
Q. And t h e r e s t o f t h e m w i t h y o u d i d t h a t ?
A. Yes .
Q. J u s t l a y down on t h e s t r e e t , j u s t l a y down on t h e
s i d e w a l k ?
A.
Q.
or i s t h e
A.
T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
D i d y o u s a y s o m e t h i n g a b o u t a n a r r e s t on J u n e t h e 1 2 t h
o n l y a r r e s t y o u a r e s p c a k i n g a b o u t on J u n e t h e 3 r d ?
J u n e t h e 3 r d .
T h a t ’ s t h e o n l y o n e t h a t y o u p a r t i c i p a t e d i n ?
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J . L. Bell, C r .
A . T h a t 1 s r i g h t .
Q. And t h e o n l y o ne y o u know a n y t h i n g a b o u t ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Do y o u know how many p o l i c e m e n w e r e i n t h e a r e a , t h e
i m m e d i a t e a r e a , when y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d ?
A. No, b u t t h e r e was q u i t e a f e w o f t h e m .
Q. How many o f t h e m a p p r o a c h e d yo u i n t h e g r o u p when y o u
were a r r e s t e d ?
A. I d o n * t r e m e m b e r e x a c t l y , b u t a b o u t f o u r o r f i v e .
MRS. MORRIS:
I h a v e no f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s .
MISS DOROTHY RUTH BRACEY
b e in g c a l l e d a s a w i t n e s s by t h e p l a i n t i f f a n d a f t e r f i r s t
h a v i n g b e e n d u l y s w o r n , t e s t i f i e d a s f o l l o w s :
DIRECT EXAMINATION
THE COURT:
S p e a k o u t d i s t i n c t l y so we c a n a l l h e a r y o u p l e a s e .
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. G i v e u s y o u r name a n d a d d r e s s .
A. D o r o t h y R u t h B r a c e y , J a c k s o n , M i s s i s s i p p i .
THE COURT:
I d i d n * t g e t y o u r l a s t n a m e .
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D. R. Bracey,
THE REPORTER:
Q. How do yo u s p e l l t h a t ?
A. B - r - a - c - e - y .
THE COURT:
A l l r i g h t , go a h e a d .
MRS. MORRIS:
Q.
p a t i n g
D u r i n g t h e summer o f
i n p i c k e t i n g ?
A, Y e s .
Q. Do y o u r e m e m b e r
A . Y e s .
Q. Wh er e was i t ?
A. On t h e c o r n e r o f
1 9 6 3 w e r e y o u a r r e s t e d f o r
how i t o c c u r r e d ?
C a p i t o l a n d Lamar i n f r o n t
P a r i s i a n .
Q. And w h a t d a t e was t h i s ?
A. May t h e 2 8 t h .
Q. How many p e o p l e w e r e w i t h y o u .
A. S e v e n .
Q. And w h e r e w e r e y o u w a l k i n g ?
A. I n f r o n t o f t h e P a r i s i a n on t h e s i d e w a l k a t
of t h e s i d e w a l k .
Q. How f a r a p a r t w e r e y o u ?
A. A b o u t t e n p a c e s .
Dr.
p a r t i c i -
o f t h e
t h e e d g e
Q. You a r e a N e g r o , a r e n ’ t yo u D o r o t h y ?
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: c .
D. R . B r a c e y , D r .
A . Y e s .
Q. Was t h e g r o u p w i t h y o u a l s o N e g r o ?
A . Y e s .
Q. And how l o n g w e r e yo u o u t t h e r e ?
A. A b o u t t e n o r f i f t e e n m i n u t e s .
Q. Were y ou w a l k i n g b a c k a n d f o r t h ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. Do y o u r e m e m b e r t h e d i s t a n c e b e t w e e n y o u ?
A. A b o u t t e n p a c e s .
Q. Wer e y o u a r r e s t e d ?
A . Y e s .
Q. U n d e r w h a t c i r c u m s t a n c e s ?
A. O b s t r u c t i n g t h e s i d e w a l k .
Q. When t h e p o l i c e a p p r o a c h e d d i d t h e y s a y a n y t h i n g t o
you?
A. W e l l , t h e y s p o k e t o some o f t h e p e o p l e , y e s .
Q. D i d t h e y s a y a n y t h i n g t o y o u , do y o u r e c a l l ?
A. No .
Q. Now, w e r e y o u p a r t i c i p a t i n g i n a n y o t h e r d e m o n s t r a
t i o n ?
A. Y e s , on May t h e 3 0 t h , 1 9 6 3 , I was a r r e s t e d f o r
p i c k e t i n g .
Q. Wh er e w e r e y o u ?
A. I n f r o n t o f H. L . G r e e n on C a p i t o l S t r e e t .
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Q. How many p e o p l e w e r e w i t h y ou ?
A. S i x .
Q. Wh er e w e r e y o u w a l k i n g ?
A. On t h e e d g e o f t h e s i d e w a l k .
Q. Were y o u b l o c k i n g t h e s t r e e t ?
A . No .
Q. Was p e d e s t r i a n t r a f f i c a b l e t o g e t b y y o u ?
A . Y e s .
Q. How many p o l i c e m e n w e r e i n t h e a r e a ?
A. W e l l , r e a l l y I d o n ’ t know b e c a u s e a t t h e same t i m e
t h e r e was a n o t h e r d e m o n s t r a t i o n g o i n g on f u r t h e r down t h e s t r e e t
and a l l t h e p o l i c e m e n w e r e down t h e r e .
THE COURT:
Q. I u n d e r s t a n d t h e r e w e r e 30 p e o p l e w i t h yo u p i c k e t i n g
on t h i s May t h e 3 0 t h .
A. T h i r t y ? I d o n ’ t t h i n k s o .
Q. I w as t r y i n g t o f i n d o u t w h a t y o u s a i d . Y o u ’ r e n o t
s p e a k i n g l o u d e n o u g h f o r me t o e v e n h e a r y o u .
A. I s a i d a b o u t s i x .
Q. Oh, s i x . You s e e , y o u d o n ’ t s p e a k v e r y d i s t i n c t l y
and I t h o u g h t y o u s a i d 3 0 . A l l r i g h t .
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Wer e y o u a r r e s t e d on t h a t d a y ?
D. R. Bracey, Dr.
A. Y e s .
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'J J V1 •
D. R . B r a c e y , D r .
Q. How l o n g w e r e y o u o u t t h e r e b e f o r e y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d ?
A. A b o u t f i f t e e n o r t w e n t y m i n u t e s .
MR. NICHOLS:
I ’ m s o r r y , Your H o n o r , b u t we d i d n ’ t g e t h e r a n s w e r .
A. A b o u t f i f t e e n o r t w e n t y m i n u t e s .
MRS . MORRIS :
Q. Wer e yo u p l a c e d u n d e r a r r e s t ?
A . Y es .
Q. Wh er e w e r e y o u t a k e n ?
A. To t h e c i t y j a i l .
Q. On b o t h o c c a s i o n s , t h e d a y y o u j u s t s p o k e a b o u t a n d
t h i s day y o u w e r e t a k e n t o c i t y j a i l ?
A . Yes .
Q. Do y o u r e m e m b e r how l o n g y o u s t a y e d t h e r e ?
A. W e l l , on t h e 2 8 t h a b o u t t h r e e o r f o u r h o u r s , a n d on
t h e 3 0 t h we s t a y e d t h e r e o v e r n i g h t .
Q. Now, h a v e y o u e v e r b e e n a r r e s t e d b e f o r e by t h e J a c k s o n
p o l i c e ?
A. A p r i l 1 9 , 1 9 6 1 .
Q. And u n d e r w h a t c i r c u m s t a n c e s d i d t h a t o c c u r ?
A. W e l l , I was a r r e s t e d on a c i t y b u s .
MR. WATKINS:
May i t p l e a s e t h e C o u r t , we a r e g o i n g t o o b j e c t t o a
1961 a r r e s t on a c i t y b u s . T h a t h a s n ’ t g o t a t h i n g i n t h e
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D. R . B r a c e y , D r .
G G I .
to do w i t h t h e i s s u e s i n t h i s l a w s u i t .
THE COURT:
I ’ l l s u s t a i n t h e o b j e c t i o n .
MR * BELL:
Your H o n o r , e x c u s e me, y e s t e r d a y we i n d i c a t e d t o y o u t h a t
i t i s g o i n g t o be t h e j o b o f t h e p l a i n t i f f i n t h i s c a s e t o show
to t h e C o u r t t h a t t h e a r r e s t s t h a t t o o k p l a c e d u r i n g m a j o r d emo n
s t r a t i o n s , m a j o r a c t i v i t i e s , l a s t summer was e n t i r e l y c o n s i s t e n t
w i t h t h e o v e r - a l l p o l i c y o f t h e d e f e n d a n t t o a r r e s t a n y o n e who
was i n v o l v e d i n a n y v i o l a t i o n o f t h e r a c i a l c o d e i n M i s s i s s i p p i .
Now t h e i n c i d e n t i n 1 9 6 1 i n d i c a t e d we w e r e n ’ t g o i n g b a c k e a r l i e r
— i n v o l v e d w i t h t h i s y o u n g l a d y — i s a n o t h e r i n s t a n c e w h e r e
someone who d i d n ’ t c o m p l y w i t h t h e r a c i a l c o d e o f J a c k s o n was
a r r e s t e d , a n d I t h i n k i t i s n e c e s s a r y t h a t we g e t a r e c o r d o f
t h i s .
THE COURT:
I d o n ’ t t h i n k we c a n t r y b u t one l a w s u i t a t a t i m e a n d
I e xa mi n ed y o u r c o m p l a i n t v e r y c a r e f u l l y l a s t n i g h t a n d I s u s
t a i n t h e o b j e c t i o n .
MR. BELL:
Y ou r H o n o r , y o u h a v e i n d i c a t e d y o u r s e l f i n d e n y i n g o u r
p r e l i m i n a r y i n j u n c t i o n t h e h a r d b u r d e n we h a v e t o f a c e i n o v e r
coming w h a t i n e f f e c t i s t h e r u l i n g o f t h e S u p r e m e C o u r t i n
(unab l e t o u n d e r s t a n d ) m a i n l y t h a t a s t a t e c o u r t p r o s e c u t i o n
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66 2.
D. R. B r a c e y , D r .
of a c i t i z e n i s p r e s u m e d t o be i n g o o d f a i t h ; n a m e l y , t h a t a
s t a t e c o u r t p r o s e c u t i o n o f a c i t i z e n i s p r e s u m e d t o be o ne i n
which t h e c o n s t i t u t i o n a l r i g h t s o f t h a t c i t i z e n a r e g o i n g t o b e
p r o t e c t e d , a n d , t h e r e f o r e , i n o r d e r t o e n j o i n a n y s u c h s t a t e
c o u r t p r o s e c u t i o n t h e r e m u s t be a s h o w i n g o f a n e x t r a o r d i n a r y
s i t u a t i o n . Now, i n o r d e r f o r u s t o g e t t h e r e l i e f t h a t we w a n t
i n t h i s c o m p l a i n t , i n o r d e r t o e n j o i n a r r e s t , i n o r d e r t o e n j o i n
p r o s e c u t i o n , i t i s g o i n g t o be n e c e s s a r y f o r u s t o show t o t h i s
Cour t an e x t r a o r d i n a r y s i t u a t i o n , t h a t i s t h a t o v e r a l o n g p e r i o i
of t i m e t h e s i t u a t i o n h a s e x i s t e d i n J a c k s o n , M i s s i s s i p p i , t h a t
Negroes ( l ) o r w h i t e s e i t h e r f o r t h a t m a t t e r , who v i o l a t e w h a t
we w i l l show by o t h e r t e s t i m o n y i s t h e o r t h o d o x v i e w , t h e o r t h o
dox p o l i c y on r a c e i n M i s s i s s i p p i a n d i n J a c k s o n w h i c h t h e
d e f e n d a n t s a r e f o l l o w i n g ; t h a t when a n y b o d y v i o l a t e s t h a t p o l i c y
t h e y ( l ) do n o t g e t a g o o d f a i t h p r o s e c u t i o n , a n d ( 2 ) a r e n o t
h av i ng t h e i r c o n s t i t u t i o n a l r i g h t s p r o t e c t e d i n t h e s t a t e c o u r t .
Now i n o r d e r t o do t h a t we h a v e t o do mo r e t h a n j u s t show t h a t
p e r s o n s who w e r e a r r e s t e d l a s t May a n d J u n e came u n d e r t h i s
s c h e d u l e . We h a v e t o show t h i s o v e r - a l l p o l i c y . I t h i n k i f y o u
r e s t r i c t u s on t h i s i t i s g o i n g t o make i t e x t r e m e l y d i f f i c u l t ,
i f p o s s i b l e a t a l l , t o show t h e a c t i o n s i n t h i s a r e a t o r e s -
t r i c t t h e c o m p l a i n a n t .
THE COURT:
You a r e o f f e r i n g t h a t j u s t on t h e m a t t e r o f a show o f
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663 .
D. R. B r a c e y , D r .
p o l i c y a n d n o t w i t h i n t h e f r a m e w o r k o f y o u r c o m p l a i n t .
HR. BELL:
I t comes w i t h i n t h e f r a m e w o r k o f t h e c o m p l a i n t f o r t h a :
p u r p o s e . I am n o t c o n c e r n e d i n t h i s t r i a l w h e t h e r , — i n f a c t
I would l i k e t o s e e t h a t t h e r e may b e some o f t h e s e 1 5 0 0 a r r e s t s
t h a t h a ve t a k e n p l a c e o f p e r s o n s who h a v e v i o l a t e d t h i s c o d e
d u r i n g t h e l a s t f e w y e a r s , s i n c e 1 9 6 1 , w h i c h may p r o v e t o b e t h e
c o n s t i t u t i o n a l i s s u e s t h e y r a i s e a r e n o t s u f f i c i e n t l y d i f f e r e n t
to p r o h i b i t a c o n v i c t i o n i n t h e s t a t e c o u r t , b u t I w a n t t o show
to t h e c o u r t w h i c h o f t h e s e w e r e p r o p e r a r r e s t s a n d p r o p e r c o n
v i c t i o n s i n e a c h i n s t a n c e , b u t I h a v e t o show t o t h e c o u r t t h a t
i n e ach i n s t a n c e w h e r e a N e g ro o r a w h i t e p e r s o n w e n t a g a i n s t
t he p r e v a i l i n g v i e w , t h e o r t h o d o x v i e w a s t o r a c e , t h a t t h e
o f f i c i a l s o f t h e C i t y o f J a c k s o n , t h e d e f e n d a n t s , a r r e s t e d t h o s e
i n d i v i d u a l s a n d t h e y w e r e p r o s e c u t e d a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h e m .
This i s t h e p o l i c y I h a v e t o show t o t h e C o u r t .
THE COURT:
W e l l , yo u s e e I c o u l d n ’ t e v a l u a t e a n a r r e s t l i k e t h a t
w i t h o u t k n o w i n g w h a t t h e c i r c u m s t a n c e s a r e a n d I d o n ’ t t h i n k
t h a t t h i s c o m p l a i n t c a l l s on me t o t r y a l l t h e s e v a r i o u s i n s t a n c
y e t , w i t h o u t l i t e r a l l y t r y i n g e a c h o n e o f t h e m , I c o u l d n ’ t t e l l
what v a l u e t o p u t o n i t , a l t h o u g h I s e e t h e w e i g h t o f w h a t y o u
a re s a y i n g .
MR. BELL;
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GG4 .
D. R . B r a c e y , D r .
W e l l , we a r e t r y i n g t o i n d i c a t e , - - now h e r e i s a , —
i t i s h a r d t o g e t t h i s i n t o t h e t e r m i n o l o g y o f t h e c o m p l a i n t . I
can p o i n t o u t t o t h e C o u r t t h e p a r a g r a p h s i n t h e c o m p l a i n t t h a t
do c o v e r t h e s e p a r t i c u l a r p r o b l e m s . We d o n ’ t h o p e t o t r y h e r e
t he v a l i d i t y o f e a c h of t h e s e a r r e s t s b e c a u s e , — we j u s t c a n ’ t
do t h a t i s n o t w h a t we a r e h e r e f o r , b u t we a r e h e r e t o show
t h a t o v e r a l o n g p e r i o d o f t i m e we a r e o n l y g o i n g b a c k t o 1 9 6 1 .
I t has b e e n t h e p o l i c y o f t h e d e f e n d a n t s t o a d h e r e t o t h e o r t h o
dox v i e w i n M i s s i s s i p p i a n d t h a t i s t h a t a n y o n e who g o e s a g a i n s t
t h i s v i e w i s g o i n g t o s u f f e r i n one f o r m o r a n o t h e r a n d t h a t , a s
a m a t t e r o f f a c t , i f t h e d e f e n d a n t s do n o t a d h e r e t o t h e v i e w s
t h e m s e l v e s , e v e n t h o u g h t h i s m e a n s v i o l a t i n g c o n s t i t u t i o n a l
r i g h t s , t h e y t h e m s e l v e s w o u l d c e r t a i n l y n o t l o n g b e i n t h e p o s i
t i o n w h i c h t h e y p r e s e n t l y h o l d . T h i s i s n o t a n e a s y t y p e o f
r e l i e f we a s k a n d I t h i n k we r e a l l y s e r i o u s l y r e q u e s t t h a t t h e
Cour t g i v e u s some l a t i t u d e on t h i s . C e r t a i n l y y o u a r e t h e
t r i e r o f f a c t s . T h e r e i s no j u r y t o be u n d u l y i n f l u e n c e d a n d I
t h i n k i n t h i s m a t t e r we h a v e p r e p a r e d m a t e r i a l v e r y c a r e f u l l y
and we w o u l d s i n c e r e l y r e q u e s t t h a t y o u a l l o w u s t o p u t t h i s on
wi t h t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g c e r t a i n l y t h a t y ou c a n s t r i k e i t —
THE COURT:
A l l r i g h t , I am g o i n g t o l e t i t i n f o r t h e l i m i t e d
p ur p os e i n d i c a t e d .
MR. WATKINS:
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665 .
D. R . B r a c e y , D r .
Yo u r H o n o r , w o u l d y o u h e a r me b e f o r e yo u do t h a t ?
THE COURT :
A l l r i g h t .
MR. WATKINS:
C o u n s e l s a y s he i s . g o i n g b a c k t o t h e b u s a r r e s t n o t
because he w a n t s t o show i t ’ s a n i m p r o p e r a r r e s t , b u t j u s t t o
show a g e n e r a l p o l i c y i n J a c k s o n . W e l l , i f i t was n o t a n i m p r o
per a r r e s t , i f i t was a p e r f e c t l y l e g a l a r r e s t w i t h n o t h i n g w r o n
wi t h i t , i t w o u l d be w h o l l y i m m a t e r i a l a n d w o u l d n ’ t h a v e a t h i n g
i n t h e w o r l d t o do w i t h t h i s c a s e . He» s g o t t o show t h e i m p r o
p r i e t y o f t h e a r r e s t f o r i t t o h a v e a n y m e a n i n g i n t h i s c a s e a t
a l l .
THE COURT:
T h a t ’ s t h e b o t h e r s o m e e f f e c t o f t h e s u g g e s t i o n , b u t I
am g o i n g t o l e t h i m p u t i t i n f o r i t s l i m i t e d p u r p o s e a n d t r y t o
e v a l u a t e i t a s b e s t I c a n .
MR. WATKINS:
May I make o n e o t h e r r e m a r k ?
THE COURT:
Y e s .
MR. WATKINS:
The b u s c a s e i s now p e n d i n g b e f o r e t h e S u p r e m e C o u r t
of t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s f o r p e t i t i o n o f w r i t o f c e r t i o r a r i . The
Park c a s e h a s b e e n t h r o u g h t h e c o u r t s , t h e i n j u n c t i o n was d e n i
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666 .
D. R • B r a c e y , D r .
and t h e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s h a s d e n i e d i t . Now,
I t h i n k a l l o f u s a r e w a s t i n g t i m e t o r e t r y i s s u e s t h a t a r e
e i t h e r p e n d i n g o r h a v e b e e n d e c i d e d by t h e c o u r t s a n d a r e n o t
s p e l l e d o u t a s i s s u e s i n t h i s l a w s u i t .
THE COURT:
I v e r y c a r e f u l l y s t u d i e d t h e c o m p l a i n t l a s t n i g h t t o
see wha t was w i t h i n t h e f r a m e w o r k o f t h e n o t i c e p l e a d i n g r u l e
and I t h i n k I know w h a t i s i n t h a t c o m p l a i n t a n d I d o n ’ t w a n t t o
was t e t o o much t i m e , b u t I ’ m s t i l l g o i n g t o g r a n t y o u t h a t
r e q u e s t t o p u t t h a t e v i d e n c e o n f o r t h e l i m i t e d p u r p o s e i n d i
c a t e d f o r w h a t e v e r i t may b e w o r t h .
MR. BELL:
Yo u r H o n o r , we a r e n o t t r y i n g t o d e s e g r e g a t e t h e p a r k s
when we s a y —
THE COURT:
A l l r i g h t , go a h e a d .
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Can y o u t e l l me w h a t h a p p e n e d i n 1 9 6 1 ?
A. I n A p r i l 1 9 6 1 , a b o u t 2 : 0 0 o ’ c l o c k , I g o t a J a c k s o n
c i t y bus on t h e c o r n e r o f C a p i t o l a n d L a m a r . I t o o k t h e f i r s t
s e a t , — I p a i d 20$ b u s f a r e a n d I t o o k t h e f i r s t s e a t on t h e
bus . The b u s d r i v e r l o o k e d a r o u n d a n d s a i d I w o u l d h a v e t o movf
and r e a l l y I d i d n ’ t l o o k up b e c a u s e I was r e a d i n g a b o o k when I
got on t h e b u s a n d h e t o l d me t h a t I w o u l d h a v e t o m o v e . He
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667 .
D. R. B r a c e y , D r .
s a id go t o t h e b a c k o f t h e b u s , t h e r e a r e s e a t s f o r c o l o r e d
p e o p l e . I d i d n t t s a y a n y t h i n g . He g o t o f f t h e b u s a n d w e n t down
t he s t r e e t a n d came b a c k w i t h a p o l i c e m a n .
MR. WATKINS:
Your H o n o r , I c a n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d a w o r d she i s s a y i n g .
THE COURT:
I c a n u n d e r s t a n d a b o u t h a l f w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g .
MR. STENNETT :
We a r e h a v i n g d i f f i c u l t y o v e r h e r e , Yo u r H o n o r .
MRS. MORRIS:
I c a n h e a r h e r , Y o u r H o n o r .
THE COURT:
You c a n ? You a r e p r o b a b l y j u s t mo r e f a m i l i a r w i t h h e r
I have n e v e r s e e n h e r b e f o r e a n d s h e i s n o t s p e a k i n g d i s t i n c t l y
enough f o r me t o t r y t o u n d e r s t a n d h e r a n d I am s p e n d i n g a l l my
energy t r y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t s h e i s s a y i n g , a n d I w o u l d l i k e
t o be a b l e t o t h i n k a b o u t w h a t s h e i s s a y i n g , b u t I am s t r u g g l i n
to t r y t o f i n d o u t w h a t s h e i s s a y i n g .
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. P l e a s e t a l k l o u d e r a n d s l o w e n o u g h so t h e y c a n h e a r
you.
A. He g o t o f f t h e b u s a n d w e n t down t h e s t r e e t a n d came
hack w i t h a p o l i c e m a n . T h i s p o l i c e m a n a s k e d u s t o g e t o f f t h e
go i n t h e b a c k w h e r e s e a t s w e r e r e s e r v e d f o r u s .bus and We
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668 .
D. R . B r a c e y , D r .
d i d n ’ t move , we d i d n ’ t s a y a n y t h i n g . He g o t o f f a n d made a p h o n s
c a l l and a b o u t s i x mo r e p o l i c e m e n a r r i v e d a t t h e s c e n e . Th e y
asked us t h e same t h i n g , t o g e t o f f t h e b u s , g e t on t h e s i d e w a l k
or go t o t h e s e a t s r e s e r v e d f o r u s . A f t e r r e p e a t i n g i t a b o u t
t h r e e t i m e s , t h e y p l a c e d u s u n d e r a r r e s t . T h e y t a k e n u s f r o m
the b u s , p u t u s i n a p a t r o l c a r a n d c a r r i e d u s t o c i t y j a i l .
Q, How l o n g w e r e y o u i n c i t y j a i l ?
A. A b o u t f o u r h o u r s .
Q. Do y o u know w h a t yo u w e r e c h a r g e d w i t h ?
A. T h e y s a i d b r e a c h o f t h e p e a c e .
Q. Was t h e r e a n y c ro wd g a t h e r e d t h e r e ?
A. No .
Q„ On t h e two o c c a s i o n s yo u t e s t i f i e d t o i n 1 9 6 3 , a t t h e
t ime you w e r e p i c k e t i n g , how many p o l i c e m e n w e r e i n t h e a r e a ?
A. W e l l , e a c h t i m e t h e r e was a d e m o n s t r a t i o n g o i n g on
f u r t h e r down t h e s t r e e t so m o s t o f t h e p o l i c e m e n w e r e down t h e r e
Q. Now, y o u w e r e a l s o i n one t h a t d e m o n s t r a t e d on J u n e
1 2 t h , w e r e y o u n o t ?
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
THE COURT:
When I c a n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d a w i t n e s s , I h a v e t r o u b l e
wi th my n o t e ^ y o u s e e , — I h a d t o l o o k a t h e r t o
u n d e r s t a n d a n y t h i n g s h e s a i d . I h a v e n ’ t g o t a n y n o t e s on h e r
t e s t i m o n y . Sh e i s t h e w o r s t o ne we h a v e h a d t o u n d e r s t a n d ,
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669 .
3). R . B r a c e y , D r .
. MORRIS:
I ’ m s o r r y , Y o u r H o n o r , I ’ l l t r y t o g e t h e r t o s p e a k
l o u d e r .
MR. WATKINS:
May i t p l e a s e t h e c o u r t , b e f o r e c r o s s e x a m i n a t i o n I
want t o move t o e x c l u d e t h e t e s t i m o n y o f t h a t w i t n e s s i n c o n n e c
t i o n w i t h t h e b u s i n c i d e n t i n 1 9 61 a s b e i n g m e a n i n g l e s s e n t i r e l y
to t h i s p r o c e e d i n g a n d t h i s h e a r i n g . . I t j u s t c o u l d n o t p o s s i b l y
mean a n y t h i n g i n t h e i s s u e we h a v e g o t b e f o r e u s on t h e 1963
d e m o n s t r a t i o n . We d o n ’ t know whether i t was r i g h t o r w r o n g . We
don’ t know a t h i n g i n t h e w o r l d a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d on t h e
o c c a s i o n o f t h i s a r r e s t . I t d o e s n ’ t mean a n y t h i n g . I t d o e s n ’ t
show p o l i c y a n d d o e s n ’ t show a n y t h i n g e l s e .
MRS. MORRIS:
I f t h e C o u r t p l e a s e , I know i t i s d i f f i c u l t f o r y o u t o
r u l e on s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u p o s s i b l y h a v e n o t h e a r d i n d e t a i l .
We have made o u r a r g u m e n t w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e p u r p o s e f o r w h i c h
i t i s a d m i t t e d . The t e s t i m o n y i s o p e n t o c r o s s e x a m i n a t i o n a n d
any c l a r i f i c a t i o n o f i s s u e s i s n e e d e d a n d we t h i n k i t p r e s e n t s a
s u b s t a n t i a l q u e s t i o n a s t o why t h e a r r e s t was made and t h e
c i r c u m s t a n c e s u n d e r which i t was m a d e .
THE COURT:
I ’ l l r e s e r v e r u l i n g on i t , I f c o u n s e l w i l l c a l l my
a t t e n t i o n t o t h e s e r e s e r v e d r u l i n g s a f t e r we h a v e h e a r d t h e
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670 .
D. R . B r a c e y , C r ,
ev idence .
CROSS EXAMINATION
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Your f i r s t a r r e s t was on May 2 8 t h , 1 9 6 3 , i s t h a t
c o r r e c t ?
A. The f i r s t one wa s on A p r i l 1 9 , 1 9 6 1 .
Q. A l l r i g h t , t h e n , y o u r s e c o n d a r r e s t was on May 2 8 t h ,
i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A . T h a t * s r i g h t .
Q. T e l l me a g a i n w h e r e i t w a s ?
A. On C a p i t o l S t r e e t i n f r o n t o f t h e P a r i s i a n .
q . Now, I b e l i e v e f o u r o t h e r p e r s o n s w e r e w i t h yo u on
t h a t day?
A. I t h i n k s o , s i x o f u s .
Q. S i x o f y o u a l t o g e t h e r ?
A . Y e s .
Q. Now, was a t r i a l h e l d on t h a t c h a r g e ?
A . Y e s .
Q. Were y o u r e p r e s e n t e d by a n a t t o r n e y a t t h a t t r i a l ?
A . Y e s .
Q. A r e y o u a c q u a i n t e d w i t h t h e f a c t t h a t H o n o r a b l e J a c k
Young r e p r e s e n t e d y o u a t t h a t t r i a l ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. I n t h e C i t y C o u r t ?
A . T h a t * s r i g h t .
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671 .
D. R . B r a c e y , C r .
Q. I s i t n o t t r u e t h a t y ou w e r e a c q u i t t e d o f t h e c h a r g e s
in t h e C i t y C o u r t ?
A. I d o n ’ t kno w.
Qa What was t h e n e x t t i m e yo u w e r e a r r e s t e d ?
A. May 3 0 t h , 1 9 6 3 .
Q. I d i d n ’ t h e a r y ou ?
A. May 3 0 t h , 1 9 6 3 .
Q. And t h a t was w h e r e ?
A. I n f r o n t o f P e n n e y ’ s and W a l g r e e n ’ s on C a p i t o l S t r e e t .
THE COURT :
You a r e c e r t a i n l y c h a n g i n g y o u r t e s t i m o n y a c c o r d i n g t o
my r e c o r d s on b o t h o f t h o s e t h i n g s . You s a i d , a c c o r d i n g t o my
n o t e s , on A p r i l t h e 2 8 t h y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d i n f r o n t o f t h e
P a r i s i a n a n d t h a t t h e r e was s e v e n o f y o u i n t h e p a r a d e a n d now
you a r e s a y i n g t h a t y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d i n f r o n t o f W a l g r e e n ’ s
when you t e s t i f i e d on d i r e c t t h a t y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d i n f r o n t o f
H. L. G r e e n ’ s w i t h s i x o t h e r p e o p l e . I ’ d b e i n t e r e s t e d t o f i n d
out w h i c h o ne o f t h o s e i s t r u e .
A. W e l l , t h e l a s t t i m e i t was i n f r o n t o f W a l g r e e n ’ s . .
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. T h a t was on t h e 3 0 t h ?
A . T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. A r e y o u p o s i t i v e i t was i n f r o n t o f W a l g r e e n ’ s?
A. Y e s .
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672 .
D. R. B r a c e y , C r .
Q. A r e y o u s u r e i t was n o t i n f r o n t o f J . C. P e n n e y Com
pany?
A. I t was a t t h e c o r n e r , a t W a l g r e e n ’ s . We s t a r t e d t h e r e .
Q. I am t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e p o i n t a t w h i c h yo u w e r e a r r e s t e d ,
you w e r e p l a c e d u n d e r a r r e s t - was i t a t H. L . G r e e n ’ s o r
W a l g r e e n ’ s o r J . C . P e n n e y ’ s?
A. Some w e r e a r r e s t e d i n f r o n t o f P e n n e y ’ s , b u t I was
a r r e s t e d i n f r o n t o f W a l g r e e n ’ s .
Q. How many p e o p l e w e r e w i t h y o u t h a t d a y ?
A. A b o u t s i x .
Q. I w i l l a s k y o u whetha: o r n o t O u t l e y was w i t h y o u ,
J e s s i e O u t l e y ?
A. I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r t h e n a m e .
Q. But y o u a r e p o s i t i v e t h e r e w e r e s i x p e o p l e w i t h y o u .
A. I s a i d a b o u t s i x . I am n o t s u r e .
Q. You w e r e t h e r e now. Was t h e r e a n y t h i n g e l s e g o i n g on
a c r o s s t h e s t r e e t , a l i k e d e m o n s t r a t i o n g o i n g on a c r o s s t h e
s t r e e t ?
A. T h e r e was o n e g o i n g on down t h e s t r e e t , y e s .
Q. F u r t h e r d o w n . Bu t w i t h y o u r g r o u p , y o u d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r
how many w e r e w i t h y o u r g r o u p .
A. I s a i d a b o u t s i x , a s w e l l a s I c a n r e m e m b e r , t h e r e
were a b o u t s i x .
Q. How w e r e y o u w a l k i n g up t h e s t r e e t ?
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G 73 .
D. R . B r a c e y , C r .
A. T h e r e w e r e t e n p a c e s b e t w e e n u s , we w e r e w a l k i n g on
the edge o f t h e s i d e w a l k .
Q. T e n p a c e s a p a r t .
A. Y e a h .
Q. T h a t w o u l d be t h i r t y f e e t , s i n c e o n e p a c e i s a p p r o x i
mate ly t h r e e f e e t , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
A. I d o n ’ t kno w.
Q. When y o u s p e a k o f a p a c e , y o u s p e a k o f a s t e p , i s t h a t
c o r r e c t ?
A. Y e s .
Q. You s t e p a b o u t two o r t h r e e f e e t when yo u s t e p , d o n ’ t
you?
A. I d o n ’ t k n o w.
Q. W e l l , g e t up a n d s t e p . J u s t l o o k a t i t a n d s e e how
f a r you s t ep .
A. ( W i t n e s s d o e s s o )
Q. How f a r w o u l d y o u s a y t h a t i s when y o u s t e p ?
A. How f a r ?
Q. Y e s , f r o m o ne f o o t t o t h e o t h e r .
A. I t i s n o t t h r e e f e e t .
Q. How many f e e t i s i t ?
A. I d o n ’ t know.
Q. How do y o u know i t was t h i r t y p a c e s t h e n ?
A. I d o n ’ t s a y i t w as t h i r t y p a c e s , I s a i d a b o u t t e n .
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674 .
D- R . B r a c e y , C r .
Q. Ten p a c e s , a l l r i g h t , t e n p a c e s a p a r t . Wer e yo u
as f a r a s I am t o y o u a p a r t when y o u w e r e w a l k i n g up t h e s t r e e t ?
A. No .
Q. You w e r e c l o s e r ?
A. Y e s .
Q. Now, w e r e y o u a s c l o s e a s y o u a r e t o t h e c o u r t r e p o r t e r ,
which w ou l d b e a p p r o x i m a t e l y f o u r f e e t ?
A. I b e g y o u r p a r d o n .
Q. When y o u w e r e w a l k i n g up t h e s t r e e t , w e r e you i n f r o n t
or b e h i n d s o m e o n e ?
A. W e l l , I was b o t h , i n f r o n t a n d b e h i n d s o m e o n e .
Q. How f a r was t h e man i n f r o n t o f y o u ?
A. A b o u t f i v e f e e t , I w o u l d s a y .
Q. Oh, f i v e f e e t now. W e l l , t h e n , y o u c o u l d n o t h a v e
been t e n p a c e s £ p a r t , c o u l d y o u ?
A. I d o n ’ t know.
Q. Were y o u t r i e d on t h i s c h a r g e i n t h e c i t y c o u r t ?
A. Y e s .
Q. Do y o u know t h e r e s u l t s o f t h e t r i a l ?
A. I was s e n t t o t h e c o u n t y c o u r t .
Q. And y o u know f o r a f a c t t h a t y o u r l a w y e r a p p e a l e d y o u r
case t o t h e c o u n t y c o u r t , i s n ’ t t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A. I d o n ’ t know, I was o u t on b o n d .
Q. I b e g y o u r p a r d o n ?
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675 .
D. R . B r a c e y , C r .
A. I was r e l e a s e d on b o n d .
q. Do yo u know f o r a f a c t t h a t y o u r a t t o r n e y e n t e r e d a
plea o f n o l o c o n t e n c b ' e on S e p t e m b e r 2 5 , 1 9 6 3 , a n d p a i d t h e f i n e
and c o s t s , i s n Tt t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MRS. MORRIS:
I f t h e C o u r t p l e a s e , I am g o i n g to o b j e c t t o a n y q u e s
t i o n s a b o u t a n o l o p l e a , a n o l o p l e a i s n o t l i k e a g u i l t y
p l e a , i t i s n o t a j u d i c i a l a d m i s s i o n , a n d i t i s t h e r e b y i r r e l e
vant h e r e .
THE COURT:
Of c o u r s e , I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t a n o l o c o n t e n d a - e i s , a n d
I don’ t b e l i e v e a n y o f t h e s e w i t n e s s e s d o , and I make t h e same
o b s e f v a t i o n t h a t I made on d i r e c t e x a m i n a t i o n , I b e l i e v e we
can g e t a l o n g a l o t f a s t e r w i t h t h e r e c o r d s r a t h e r t h a n t o a s k
t he se p e o p l e a b o u t s o m e t h i n g t h a t i s a b s o l u t e l y m e a n i n g l e s s t o
them.
MR. NICHOLS:
A l l r i g h t , s i r .
Q, Now, y o u d i d m e n t i o n t h e f a c t t h a t y o u h a p p e n e d t o be
a r r e s t e d on J u n e 1 2 , 1 9 6 3 , w h i c h y o u f a i l e d t o g i v e t h e
Court any d e t a i l s o f .
MRS. MORRIS:
Your h o n o r , I o b j e c t t o t h a t . I d i d n ’ t a s k t h e w i t
ness a b o u t a n y d e t a i l s o f i t .
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6 76 .
D. R. B r a c e y ( C r . )
MR. NICHOLS:
May i t p l e a s e t h e C o u r t , s h e b r o u g h t up t h e a r r e s t ,
and t h i s i s c r o s s e x a m i n a t i o n .
MRS. MORRIS:
I was o b j e c t i n g t o t h e f o r m of t h e q u e s t i o n .
THE COURT:
A l l r i g h t , o v e r r u l e t h e o b j e c t i o n , go a h e a d , p l e a s e .
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. S u p p o s e yo u t e l l u s a b o u t y o u r a r r e s t on J u n e 1 2 t h ,
where was i t , w h a t t i m e o f d a y , a n d so f o r t h ?
A. I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r t h e t i m e o f t h e d a y , b u t t h e a r r e s t
was made on L y n c h S t r e e t , I t h i n k i t was t h e c o r n e r o f Ly n ch
and M n d e x t e r .
Q. How many p e o p l e w e r e w i t h y o u , i f a n y , a t t h a t t i m e ?
A. I t h i n k t h e r e w e r e a b o u t t h r e e h u n d r e d , I am n o t s u r e .
Q. A l l r i g h t , how d i d y o u h a p p e n t o b e o n Ly n ch a n d P o i n
d e x t e r ? F r om w h e n c e h a d y o u come?
A. We p a r a d e d f r o m t h e M a s o n i c T e m p l e down t h e m i d d l e o f
Lynch S t r e e t , i n a l i n e o f t w o ’ s .
Q. T h r e e h u n d r e d p e o p l e w a l k i n g up t h e m i d d l e o f L y n c h
S t r e e t , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. Ly n ch s t r e e t i s t h e s t r e e t w h e r e a u t o m o b i l e s go b o t h
vays °n t h e s t r e e t , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
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677 .
D. R . B r a c e y , ( C r . )
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. Would i t b e c o r r e c t t o s a y t h a t t h i s h a p p e n e d s h o r t l y
a f t e r noon a b o u t o ne o ’ c l o c k i n t h e a f t e r n o o n ?
A. I d o n ’ t know t h e t i m e , b u t i t w as i n t h e a f t e r n o o n .
Q. I b e g y o u r p a r d o n ?
A. I t was i n t h e a f t e r n o o n , b u t I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r t h e t i m e .
Q. You w e r e a r r e s t e d f o r w h a t ?
A. What was I a r r e s t e d f o r ?
Q. Yes .
A. Th ey s a y p a r a d i n g w i t h o u t a p e r m i t .
Q, W e l l , now, d e s c r i b e t o me how y o u w e r e w a l k i n g up t h e
s t r e e t , t h i s 300 p e o p l e .
A. We w e r e w a l k i n g i n t w o ’ s , on t h e c e n t e r o f t h e y e l l o w
l i n e on Lynch S t r e e t .
Q. And w h a t was y o u r p u r p o s e i n w a l k i n g down t h e s t r e e t ?
A. We was on o u r way t o t h e M a y o r ’ s o f f i c e .
Q. F o r w h a t r e a s o n ?
A. We w e r e t r y i n g t o l e t t h e Mayor a n d t h e l e a d i n g c i t i
zens of J a c k s o n know t h a t w e , a s N e g r o e s , w e r e n o t s a t i s f i e d
with t h e s i t u a t i o n .
Q. D i d a l l o f y o u i n t h a t f o r m a t i o n h a v e t h e same common
purpose o f m a r c h i n g down t h e s t r e e t t o t a l k t o t h e M a y o r ?
A. W e l l -
MRS. MORRIS:
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678 .
D- R . B r a c e y ( C r . )
I o b j e c t t o t h a t , she h a s no way o f k n o w i n g t h e p u r
pose o f t h e p e o p l e -
THE COURT :
W e l l , i f s h e k n o w s , I w i l l o v e r r u l e t h e o b j e c t i o n , i f
she knows.
MR» NICHOLS *
Q. How d i d y o u h a p p e n t o g e t i n t o t h e p a r a d e ?
A. How d i d I h a p p e n t o g e t i n i t ?
Q. Y e s . Had y o u b e e n m e e t i n g a n y w h e r e b e f o r e t h e p a r a d e ?
A. Y e s .
Q. Where was t h e m e e t i n g h e l d ?
A. At t h e M a s o n i c T e m p l e .
Q. And w h a t was t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e m e e t i n g ?
A. The p u r p o s e o f t h e m e e t i n g was t o g e t v o l u n t e e r s .
Q. To g e t v o l u n t e e r s t o do w h a t ?
A. P e o p l e who w e r e n o t s a t i s f i e d w i t h t h e c o n d i t i o n s i n
J a c k s o n , M i s s i s s i p p i .
Q. And d i d y o u d e t e r m i n e a t t h e m e e t i n g t h a t y o u w o u l d
parade t o show y o u r d i s s a t i s f a c t i o n ?
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. And t h e s e p a r a d i n g p e o p l e , t h e o n e s i n t h e p a r a d e ,
they we r e i n t h e m e e t i n g w i t h y o u , w e r e t h e y ?
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. D i d s o meo ne s a y l e t ’ s g e t up a n d p a r a d e , o r how d i d jou
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679 .
D. R. B r a c e y , C r .
de t e r m i ne t o p a r a d e ?
A. We h a d t r i e d e v e r y t h i n g e l s e , a n d we d i d n ’ t know a n y
t h i ng e l s e .
Q. W e l l , d i d some s p e a k e r t a l k t o you a t t h e m e e t i n g ?
A. W e l l , I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r .
Q. You d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r .
A. No, s i r .
Q. W e l l , y o u r e m e m b e r w a l k i n g down t h e s t r e e t , how y o u
walked, y o u r e m e m b e r w h e r e i t was a n d whe n i t o c c u r r e d , a n d you
don’ t r e me mber w h e t h e r t h e r e was a s p e a k e r .
A. No .
Q. At t h a t p o i n t o n L y n c h S t r e e t w h e r e y o u w e r e w a l k i n g
and were a r r e s t e d , t h e r e a r e s i d e w a l k s , a r e t h e r e n o t ?
A. Y e s .
Q. On b o t h s i d e s .
A. Y e s .
Q. Now, w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o y o u r a r r e s t o f May 3 0 , 1 9 6 3 , I
b e l i e v e yo u t e s t i f i e d y o u w e r e c a r r y i n g a s i g n o r a p l a c a r d o f
some k i n d .
A. I d o n ’ t t h i n k I s a i d t h a t .
Q. Wer e y o u c a r r y i n g o n e ?
A. I was w e a r i n g a s i g n , y e s .
Q. A l l r i g h t , w h a t t y p e of s i g n was i t ?
A. The s i g n w as made o u t o f p a s t e b o a r d h a n g i n g a r o u n d my
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neck.
Q. B i d i t h a v e w r i t i n g on i t ?
A. Y e s , s i r .
Q. And w h a t d i d t h e w r i t i n g s a y ?
A. We w a n t f r e e d o m .
Q. Now, when y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d on May 2 8 t h , two d a y s
b e fo re t h a t , w e r e y ou c a r r y i n g o n e o f t h e s e t y p e s i g n s ?
A. Y e s .
Q. Did i t h a v e w r i t i n g on i t ?
A. Y e s , s i r .
Q. W h a t , i f a n y t h i n g , d i d t h e w r i t i n g s a y ?
A. The same t H n g .
Q. We w a n t f r e e d o m .
A. Y e s , s i r .
Q. D i d e v e r y o n e h a v e t h e same t y p e o f s i g n on?
A. W e l l , I d o n Tt know.
Q. D i d not J a m e s Le e P i t t m a n h a v e a s i g n on w h i c h s a i d :
"Don’ t buy on C a p i t o l S t r e e t - NAACP” ?
A. I d o n ’ t k n ow.
Q. You d i d n ’ t h a p p e n t o n o t i c e w h a t t h e o t h e r s i g n s s a i d .
A. No .
Q. Who made t h e s e s i g n s , d i d y o u make t h e m ?
A. No .
__________________________________________________________ 680 .
Q. Wher e d i d y o u g e t y o u r s f r o m ?
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681 .
D. R . B r a c e y , C r .
A. Wher e d i d I g e t i t f r o m ?
Q. Y e s . Was i t made f o r y o u o r w e r e yo u t h e one who made
i t ?
A. I t was m a de .
Q. I t was made up f o r y o u . And do y o u know who made i t ?
A. No, s i r .
Q. Where d i d y o u g e t i t ?
A. I g o t i t o u t o f t h e NAACP o f f i c e .
Q. I s t h a t o f f i c e o u t on Ly n c h S t r e e t ?
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. Now, d i d t h e o t h e r p e o p l e w i t h y o u g e t t h e i r s i g n s t h e r
too?
A. I d o n ’ t kno w.
Q. Now, i s n ’ t i t t r u e t h a t a l l o f y o u g o t y o u r s i g n s i n
the same p l a c e , a t t h e same t i m e ?
A. No .
Q. How d i d i t o c c u r ? D i d y o u g e t y o u r s f i r s t , a n d t h e n
leave t h e p l a c e o f b u s i n e s s ?
A. I d o n ’ t know who g o t t h o s e s i g n s f i r s t .
Q. D i d n ’ t y o u a l l g e t t h e m w h i l e y o u w e r e a l l s t a n d i n g
the re i n t h e o f f i c e o f t h e NAACP?
A. No .
Q. How d i d y o u g e t t h e m ? You g o t y o u r s a n d l e f t t h e
p l ace , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
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682 .
D. R. B r a c e y , C r .
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
q. And t h e o t h e r p e o p l e came i n a n d g o t t h e i r ’ s .
A. I d o n ’ t know a b o u t t h e i r ’ s .
Q. When d i d y o u n e x t m e e t t h e p e o p l e t h a t y o u m a r c h e d
with?
A. On C a p i t o l S t r e e t .
Q. You a l l me t a t one p l a c e on C a p i t o l S t r e e t .
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. Did y o u come i n a c a r t o g e t h e r down t h e r e ?
A. No .
Q. You came s e p a r a t e l y .
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. W i t h whom d i d y o u come?
A. R e a l l y I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r .
Q. Did s o m e o n e d r i v e y o u down t h e r e o r d i d y o u w a l k ?
A. I was d r i v e n down t h e r e .
Q. Who d r o v e y o u down?
A. I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r t h a t .
Q. Do yo u r e m e m b e r w h a t k i n d o f c a r y o u w e n t down t h e r e
in?
A. No .
Q. W i t h r e g a r d t o t h e a r r e s t on May 3 0 t h , d i d y o u g e t
your s i g n t h a t d a y f r o m t h e NAACP o f f i c e ?
A. Y e s .
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683 .
D „ R . B r a c e y , C r .
Q. 3)0 y o u r e m e m b e r w h a t t h e s i g n s s a i d ?
A. (No a n s w e r )
Q. You d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r a n y s i g n s e x c e p t t h e o n e h a n g i n g
around y o u r own n e c k ?
A. No, I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r t h e o t h e r s i g n s .
Q. Do y o u r e m e m b e r how y o u g o t f r o m t h e NAACP h e a d q u a r t e r s
down t o C a p i t o l S t r e e t on t h a t d a y ?
A. I was d r i v e n d o w n t o w n , b u t how I d o n ’ t k n ow.
Q. You d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r who d r o v e y o u ?
A. No .
Q. Had y o u e v e r s e e n t h e p a r t y b e f o r e t h a t d r o v e y o u on
t h a t day?
A. R e a l l y I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r , I d o n ’ t know who I was d r i v
ing w i t h .
Q. Where d i d y o u g e t i n t h e c a r , c a n y o u r e m e m b e r t h a t ?
A. On L y n c h S t r e e t .
Q. I n f r o n t o f t h e NAACP h e a d q u a r t e r s ?
A. No .
Q. W h e r e , on L y n c h S t r e e t ?
A. B e h i n d t h e b u i l d i n g .
Q. B e h i n d w h a t b u i l d i n g ?
A. The NAACP.
Q. So y o u w e n t o u t t h e b a c k d o o r a n d g o t i n t h e c a r a t
t ^e NAACP h e a d q u a r t e r s , a n d t h e y d r o v e y ou t o C a p i t o l S t r e e t ,
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684 .
D. R. B r a c e y , Cr .
i s t ha t r i g h t ?
A. Y e s .
Q. Now, d i d t h e y d r i v e t h e o t h e r p a r t i e s t h e same way?
A. I d o n Tt know.
Q. Was t h i s a c t i v i t y on May 2 8 t h and y o u r a c t i v i t y on
May 30th p a r t o f a s e l e c t i v e b u y i n g c a mp a i gn s p o n s o r e d by t h e
NAACP?
A. Y e s .
MR. NICHOLS:
That i s a l l , y o u r h o n o r .
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. On t h e two o c c a s i o n s , you w e r e p i c k e t i n g , d i d you
have more t h a n e i g h t o r t e n p e o p l e w i t h you on e i t h e r o c c a s i o n ?
A. I d o n Tt t h i n k s o .
Q. You t e s t i f i e d a b o u t M a r c h i n g on Lynch S t r e e t , t h a t was
the morning Mr. E v e r s was k i l l e d , was i t n o t , and t h e r e was a
larg_e crowd g a t h e r e d a t t h e M a s o n i c T e m p l e , on J un e 1 2 t h .
A. Y e s .
MRS. MORRIS:
I h a v e n o t h i n g f u r t h e r . ( W i t n e s s e x c u s e d )
MISS EDDIE JEAN THOMAS
being c a l l e d a s a w i t n e s s by t h e P l a i n t i f f , and a f t e r f i r s t
having b e e n d u l y s w o r n , t e s t i f i e d a s f o l l o w s :
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685 .
E .J . T h o m a s , D i r .
DIRECT EXAMINATION
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. G i v e u s y o u r name a n d a d d r e s s , a n d s p e a k a s l o u d l y a s
you c a n .
A. I f m M i s s E d d i e J e a n T h o m a s , I l i v e a t 1 0 8 5 Ly nc h
S t r e e t , J a c k s o n , M i s s i s s i p p i .
Q. You a r e a s t u d e n t , a r e y o u n o t ?
A. Y e s , a t J a c k s o n S t a t e C o l l e g e .
MR. NICHOLS:
May i t p l e a s e t h e C o u r t , we d i d n o t g e t t h e n ame .
MRS. MORRIS:
E d d i e J e a n T h o m a s .
THE COURT:
I b e l i e v e o n e t h i n g t h a t k i n d o f t h r o w s t h e m i s when
you a s k t h e i r name a n d a d d r e s s a t t h e same t i m e , t h e y f e e l
l i k e t h e y h a v e g o t t o s p i l l t h a t a l l i n t o o n e s h o r t s e n t e n c e .
I b e l i e v e i f y o u w o u l d j u s t a s k t h e n a m e , a n d t h e n a s k t h e
a d d r e s s . A l l r i g h t .
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. On o r a b o u t May 2 8 t h , 1 9 6 3 , w e r e y o u p i c k e t i n g i n J a c k -
son?
A. Y e s .
Q. Where w e r e y o u ?
A. On C a p i t o l S t r e e t , I was down by L a m a r , o n C a p i t o l a n d
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6 86 .
E . J . Thoma s , D i r .
Lamar, c o r n e r o f t h e P a r i s i a n .
Q. How many p e o p l e w e r e w i t h y o u ?
A. S i x .
Q. And how f a r w e r e y o u a p a r t ?
A. A b o u t t e n s p a c e s .
Q. What d i s t a n c e h a d y o u c o v e r e d ?
A. Oh, a b o u t a b l o c k .
Q. Were y o u a r r e s t e d ?
A. Yes .
Q. Di d y o u h a v e s i g n s a t t h e t i m e ?
A. Yes .
Q. Do y o u r e m e m b e r w h a t t h e y s a i d ?
A. The s i g n s s a i d s o m e t h i n g l i k e "We w a n t e q u a l i t y ” ,
"Freedom Day” , "We w i l l o v e r c o m e " . I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r , b u t t h e y
vere a l l somewha t —
Q. You a r e a n e g r o , a r e n ’ t y o u ?
A. I a m .
Q. Was t h e g r o u p w i t h y o u N e g r o e s ?
A. P a r t o f t h e m .
Q. Now, w e r e y o u a r r e s t e d on t h i s o c c a s i o n ?
A. Y e s , I w a s .
Q. Can y o u t e l l me t h e c i r c u m s t a n c e s u n d e r w h i c h y o u w e r e
arrested?
A. W e l l , t h e p o l i c e came up t h e r e a n d a s k e d me i f I h a d
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E . J . Th o ma s , D i r .
687 .
permit t o p a r a d e , a n d I d i d n ’ t a n s w e r . He a s k e d me t h r e e t i m e s ,
and I s t i l l d i d n ’ t a n s w e r . He t o l d me I w a s u n d e r a r r e s t , a n d
vhen he t o l d me t h i s , he t u r n e d a r o u n d a n d w a l k e d a w a y , a n d he
came back a n d b r o k e t h e s t r i n g a r o u n d my n e c k , a n d he t o l d t h e m
to c a l l t h e p a d d y w a g o n , a n d t h e y d i d .
q. Did h e a r r e s t t h e e n t i r e g r o u p w i t h y o u t h a t d a y ?
A. Y e s .
Q. Where w e r e yo u t a k e n ?
A. To t h e C i t y J a i l .
Q. How l o n g w e r e y o u t h e r e ?
A. No more t h a n a b o u t 3^ h o u r s , I g u e s s .
Q. T h i s was on w h i c h d a y ?
A. The 2 8 t h .
Q. Now, d i d y i u p a r t i c i p a t e i n a n y o t h e r a c t i v i t i e s t h a t
summer?
A. I d i d .
Q. When?
A. On May 3 0 , 196 3 .
Q. And w h a t w e r e y o u d o i n g t h a t d a y ?
A. I was p r a y i n g on t h e P o s t O f f i c e s t e p s .
Q. And how d i d t h i s o c c u r ?
A. W e l l , we w e r e t o h a v e p r a y e r m e e t i n g a t a p p r o x i m a t e l y
4:30 t h i s e v e n i n g , a n d we me t t o h a v e t h i s p r a y e r , a n d a f t e r
ve a r r i v e d a t t h e p o s t o f f i c e , t h e r e was some p e o p l e on t h e
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688 .
E . J . Thoma s , D i r .
i n s i d e , you know, l i k e t h e y d i d n ’ t l i k e what was g o i n g o n .
Q. Where w e r e y ou s t a n d i n g when t h i s hap pe ne d?
A. W e l l , a t t h i s t i m e I was i n s i d e t h e p o s t o f f i c e g e t t i n g
a stamp book or s o m e t h i n g , a n y w ay , w a i t i n g u n t i l t h e a p p o i n t e d
time, w a i t i n g u n t i l 4 : 3 0 . Anyway, when we w a l k e d o u t , t h e p e o
ple i n s i d e t h e p o s t o f f i c e b u i l d i n g came o u t b e h i n d u s , and a t
the t ime a crowd had g a t h e r e d .
Q. Were t h e r e a number o f p o l i c e m e n i n t h e a r e a a t t h i s
time?
A. Y e s , q u i t e a f e w .
Q. Were t h e p o l i c e m e n t h e r e b e f o r e y o u g o t on t h e s t e p s
at the f r o n t ?
A. Yes .
Q. What w e r e t h e y d o i n g ?
A. J u s t s t a n d i n g a r o u n d t a l k i n g .
Q. Do you know how many w e r e out t h e r e ?
A. Q u i te a f e w . I d o n ’ t remember how many.
Q. How l o n g w e r e y o u t h e r e on t h e f r o n t s t e p s ?
A. No more t h a n a b o u t t e n m i n u t e s .
Q. On t h e s t e p s and i n s i d e t o o .
A. Oh, on t h e i n s i d e , w e l l , I g u e s s I g o t h e r e a b o u t , —
I don’ t remember t h e e x a c t t i m e , but we w e r e - we p a s s e d a b o u t
f i f t e e n m i n u t e s w a i t i n g .
Q. I n t h e i n s i d e ?
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689 .
E . J . Thoma s , D i r .
A. Tha t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. And how l o n g we re you on t h e s t e p s ?
A. T h r e e or f o u r m i n u t e s .
Q. Di d a nyb ody h a v e any s i g n s ?
A. No .
Q. How many w e r e i n t h e g roup?
A. I t h i n k t h e r e w e r e e i t h e r t h i r t e e n o r f o u r t e e n .
Q. Were y ou b l o c k i n g t h e d o o r w a y s o r a n y t h i n g l i k e t h a t ?
A. No .
Q. Where w e r e y ou s t a n d i n g , - you a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e
f r o n t s t e p s o f t h i s b u i l d i n g we a r e i n now.
A. Of t h i s b u i l d i n g .
Q. Where w e r e y o u s t a n d i n g w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o t h e d o o r s ?
A. I t h i n k we must h a v e b e e n on t h e f i r s t s t e p . We we r e
a l l not on o ne s t e p , we w e r e a d i s t a n c e a p a r t .
Q. Was t h e gr ou p y ou we re w i t h q u i e t and o r d e r l y ?
A. P a rd o n ?
Q. Was t h e r e any n o i s e i n t h e g r o u p you w e r e w i t h ?
MR. TRAVIS:
We a r e g o i n g t o o b j e c t t o l e a d i n g . Le t t h e w i t n e s s
t e s t i f y what h a p p e n e d .
THE COURT :
I w i l l o v e r r u l e i t . Go a h e a d .
MRS. MORRIS:
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690 .
E . J . Thoma s , D ir .
Q, Now, w e r e you a r r e s t e d on t h i s o c c a s i o n ?
A. Y e s .
Q. What w e r e you c h a r g e d w i t h ?
A. V i o l a t i n g some Code n u mbe r , I d o n ’ t remember t h e number
Q. You d o n ’ t remember what t h e c h a r g e was -
MR. WATKINS:
May i t p l e a s e t h e c o u r t , we o b j e c t on t h e g r ou n d t h a t
the r e c o r d i s t h e b e s t e v i d e n c e .
MRS * MORRIS:
I w i l l w i t h d r a w t h a t .
Q. Were you t a k e n t o j a i l ?
A. Y e s , I w a s .
Q. How l o n g w e r e y ou t h e r e ?
A. I t h i n k t h i s must h a v e b e e n on a T h u r s d a y . T h i s was or
a T h u r s d a y . I was i n u n t i l F r i d a y m o r n i n g .
Q. Where d i d y o u s pe nd F r i d a y n i g h t ?
A. The C i t y J a i l .
Q. Now, y ou w e r e i n t h e p r o c e s s i o n on J u n e 1 2 t h , w e r e you
not?
A. Y e s .
Q. Now, o t h e r t h a n t h o s e , h a v e y o u e v e r b e e n a r r e s t e d f o r
s i m i l a r a c t i v i t i e s ?
A. Y e s , I h a v e .
Q. When?
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691 .
(E. J. Thomas - Direct)
A. July 5th, 1961.
Q. What were you arrested for then?
A. Because I attempted to swim in Livingston Park
where it's normally used by white people of Jackson.
MR. WATKINS:
May it please the Court, we object to the ques
tion and move to strike the answer as involving an incident in
a park not involved in this controversy.
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, may I be heard on it?
THE COURT:
No. I believe I will admit that for the limited
purpose indicated on the previous question and answer of like
kind, which I do not think is within the realm of the pleading,
but I'm admitting it for the limited purpose indicated.
MRS. MORRIS:
Thank you.
Q. Do you remember when this occurred?
A. Y/hen what occurred?
Q. When the swimming pool incident you were telling
me about — do you remember when it occurred?
A. July 5th, 1961.
Q. And were you by yourself at the park?
A. No.
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692 .
(E. J. Thomas - Direct)
Q. And what did you do when you got to the park?
A. Well, when I arrived at the park, the pool was
closed. It must have been lunch time, and we sat on the ground
and had a couple of sandwiches.
Q. How many people were with you?
A. Well, there were about fourteen of us out there.
Q. Were they all Negro?
A . Pardon?
Q. Where they all Negro?
A. Yes, this group was all Negroes. When the pool
opened, and there were two couples to swim, two girls and two
boys, and when the cops came — when the pool opened, we got
up and walked towards the ticket gate, and at the time the
policeman told us all to get out of the park and go to our own
park, and the rest of them left, other than the four of us, and
I attempted to get a ticket and they refused — at least, they
didn’t even let me get in the ticket box.
They told me to turn around, I could go back, so
when they turned me around, since I couldn't swim, I decided to
sit on the bench to at least watch the pleasure of other people
swim, and when we did, the cop came up and told us to move on
out of the park. He told us three times, and didn't anybody
say anything and didn't anybody do anything.
Q. Was there any crowd around you at that time?
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693 .
(E. J. Thomas - Direct)
A. Well, there were when I was on my way to the
ticket box, a crowd had gathered, boys with sticks about this
long, and the cops stopped them and they stopped me, and when
I turned around and sat on the bench, that’s when they came up
and told us for the last three times to move on — didn’t any
body say anything, and after he told us three times, he told us
we were under arrest.
Q. The boys with the sticks you were talking about —
were they white or Negro?
A. They were white boys.
Q. Did anybody arrest them?
A. No.
Q. Do you know what you were arrested for?
A. Breach of the peace.
Q. Were you tried on it?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you convicted?
A. Guilty.
Q. Do you remember when the trial was?
MR. WATKINS:
May it please the Court, we object to the dispo
sition of that case. The record is the best evidence.
THE COURT:
Well, if she can tell, I will let her tell some-
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694 .
(E. J, Thomas - Direct)
thing about that, but I don’t think she would know much about
court proceedings, so I ’ll overrule the objection, if she knows
what she’s charged with.
MRS. MORRIS:
She has already testified as to what she was
charged with.
THE COURT:
All right.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Do you know whether the case has reached the
County Court yet?
A. No, it hasn’t, not as I know of.
Q. Was it tried shortly after the incident?
A. I don't remember really when, but I know I have
been tried.
Q. Now, in the incidents you described to me in
1963, why did you participate in these things?
A. Protesting against racial demonstration in Jack-
son, Mississippi.
Q. Racial what?
A. Racial segregation of Jackson, Mississippi.
MRS. MORRIS:
I have no further questions.
CROS S-EXAMINATION
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695 .
BY MR. TRAVIS:
Q.
12th of June,
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
left?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
strate?
A.
Q.
A.
Mississippi.
Q.
stration?
A.
Q.
(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
You mentioned that you were in this parade on the
1963?
That's right.
Where did you get together to get in this parade?
Where did we get together?
Right.
Well, we met at the Masonic Temple before we left
Why did you meet at the Masonic Temple before you
Why did we meet?
Why?
To demonstrate.
To demonstrate — and why were you going to demon-
Why was I going to demonstrate?
Why?
To protest against racial segregation of Jackson,
All right. Now, who was sponsoring this demon-
Who was what?
Who was in charge — who was sponsoring this
demonstration?
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(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
A. Well, nobody was really in charge. We were all
volunteers.
Q. Well, who called for volunteers?
A. Who called for volunteers — oh, well, we have
mass meetings and —
Q. What type — go ahead.
A. We have mass meetings and sometimes maybe the
speaker will say: would anybody like to volunteer in protest
against racial segregation of Jackson, and if so — so there
were some that did volunteer, and we met at the Masonic Temple
and at the appointed time, we left.
Q. All right. Now, you still haven't answered my
question. Who was calling for volunteers?
A. Well, I don’t remember the speaker that spoke
this particular night.
Q. Who was the speaker?
A . I don’t remember .
Q. You've got a short memory.
A. Well, I don't remember the speaker this particu
lar night.
Q. Well, who was sponsoring these mass meetings?
A. Who was sponsoring them — the NAACP.
Q. The NAACP. So whoever it was who called for
demonstrators was from the NAACP?
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697 .
(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
A. I don’t know whether they were from that group
or not, but anyway, whoever spoke that night asked for this
and the ones that volunteered to do this met, and at the time,
we lef t .
Q. Well, you met at the NAACP office on Lynch Street
A. We met at the Masonic Temple on Lynch Street,
t h a t ' s r i g h t .
Q. Well, that’s where the NAACP has its office, is
it not?
A. That’s right.
Q. And that’s in the ten hundred block of Lynch
Street, is it not?
A. Ten, seventy-two, I believe.
Q. Ten, seventy-two. All right. Now, how many of
you were there that met there on this occasion?
A. I don’t remember the number, but quite a few.
Q- How many?
A. I don’t remember the exact number.
Q. Just a few or a large number?
A. A large number.
Q. And what did you do?
A. What did we do?
Q. Yes .
A. We marched down Lynch Street.
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698 .
(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
Q. Where in Lynch Street did you march?
A. Well, I don't remember whether we marched to
Rose or Poindexter, but it was one of the two. We didn't get
very far .
Q„ Let's get back to the starting point when you
started out into the street. Where in the street did you
march?
A. In the middle of Lynch Street.
Q. In the middle of Lynch Street?
MR. BELL:
Before you answer that, we would like to enter
an objection to this line of questioning. Unless the gather
ing of volunteers for the purpose of protesting is somehow
illegal and violating some statute, then all of this question
ing seems to be irrelevant and is certainly immaterial, and
we would like to object.
THE COURT:
Overrule the objection. Go ahead.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. So you got out in the middle of Lynch Street?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, you are familiar with Lynch Street, are
you not?
A. Yes, I am.
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699 .
(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
Q. And you know that Lynch Street is one of the
wider streets of the city of Jackson — it’s a wide boulevard,
is it not?
A. It is a street in Jackson.
Q. And it's a wide street?
A. Yes .
And it’s one of the more heavily traveled tho-
roughfares in the city of Jackson, is it not?
A. I don’t know this.
Q There is a lot of traffic on it, you know that
though, don’t you?
A There is.
Q And you are familiar with that fact?
A That's right.
Q All right. Now, you went in — you say there
was a large number of you. I'll ask you how many?
A I'm not sure how many.
Q And you went into the middle of the street?
A That's right.
Q Am I to assume that you went out to the yellow
line in the middle of the street?
A. Pardon.
Q. Am I to assume that when you walked out of the
Masonic Temple, you walked out to the yellow line in the
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700 ,
(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
middle of the street?
A. I don’t remember whether we were on the yellow
line or not. We might have not been in the middle, but any
way, we were in the street, not on the sidewalk.
Q. Well, in any event, you were blocking traffic
in the street?
A. Well, yes.
Q. And you moved on down the street then?
A. That’s right.
Q. Still blocking traffic?
A. Still blocking traffic.
Q. All right, what did you do then?
A. What did we do?
Q. Right.
A. We didn’t do anything. At that time, the police
men took the work over. We didn’t have anything to do.
Q. All right. Was there just one policeman?
A. No, indeed.
Q. How many policemen did you see?
A. Oh, I really don’t know.
Q. Were there as many policemen as there was of
you in the street?
A. Almost.
Q. Almost. Do you know how many of you were in
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(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
the street at that time?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. Was anybody arrested?
A. Yes.
Q. Would it surprise you if I told you there were
a hundred and forty-six of you arrested at that time?
A. No, it wouldn’t.
Q. All right. Now, when you approached — you say
you were arrested at Lynch and Poindexter?
A. I don’t remember whether it was Lynch and Poin
dexter or Lynch and Rose.
Q. Well, it was somewhere in that —
A. It was some ways back to the Masonic Temple,
but I don't remember whether it was Rose or Poindexter.
Q. All right. Well, in any event, those are the
streets — Poindexter and Rose are the two streets that run
parallel, is that right?
A. That’s right.
Q. Across Lynch Street?
A. That’s right.
Q. So at one or the other you were stopped by the
police officers?
A. That’s right.
Q. And that’s a number of blocks from the Masonic
____ ____________________________________________________________________701.
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702 .
Temple?
(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
A. Beg your pardon.
Q. That’s several blocks from the Masonic Temple,
is it not?
A. To Poindexter Street, it is two blocks.
Q. And you had been blocking traffic in the street
during your parade or march down the middle of the street?
A. That’s right.
Q. All right. Now, did you approach these offi
cers or did they approach you?
A. They approached me.
Q. All right, and what happened then?
A. What happened?
Q. Right.
A. They loaded us all up and put us in the paddy
wagon.
Q. No, I mean before they loaded you up.
A. Before they did — well, there was a lot of
mumbling and talking and at the time, they hit one girl on
the neck and they put us all —
Q. What was her name?
A. I don’t remember her name. And they said: put
them all in the paddy wagon and take them to jail.
Q. All right. Was there a police officer out
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703 .
(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
there in charge of that police detail?
A. I don’t know who was in charge because there
were many policemen there.
Q. All right. Was there an officer there that had
a bull horn?
A. A what?
Q. A bull horn — a loud speaker?
A. Yes .
Q. Yes?
A. Uh huh.
Q. And did this police officer on this bull horn
ask you whether or not any member of your group had a permit
to parade?
A. I don’t remember his asking that.
Q. Well, you don’t tell us that he didn’t ask you
that?
A. I wouldn’t say that he did or didn’t. I don’t
remember.
Q. All right. Could you hear what was going on?
A. Could I hear? No, I couldn't hear the exact
words because they all were mumbling, but the point they was
getting over was to load them all up and take them to jail —
bring the paddy wagon, bring the garbage trucks, because they
needed more than one.
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704 .
(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
Q. Well, how could you hear that?
A. He was on the loud speaker talking.
Q. All right. Now, did you hear any conversation
on that loud speaker about this police officer asking over
the loud speaker for you to disperse and move over to the
sidewalks and get out of the street?
A. No, I didn’t. They didn’t ask us to get out of
the street.
Q. You deny that?
A. Pardon.
Q. You deny that?
A. I deny what?
Q. That the police asked you to disperse?
A. I don’t remember hearing him telling me to get
out of the street, or the group.
Q. I don’t mean you personally.
A. I don’t remember him asking any of us to move,
because when they stopped us he was telling the other police
men to load them up, bring the paddy wagon and bring the
garbage trucks. I don’t remember him asking us to get out
of the street.
Q. All right. You don’t remember him asking you
to disperse?
A. No, I don’t.
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705 .
(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
Q. All right. Now, did you have a permit to
parade on this occasion?
A. No, I didn’t,
Q. Did anybody else in your group have a permit
to parade, to your knowledge?
A. No, not to my knowledge, they didn’t, no.
Q. No. Had you made any effort to obtain a permit
to parade?
A. Pardon.
Q. Had you made any effort to obtain a permit to
parade?
A. Well, personally, I hadn’t, but there have
been some Negroes to try.
Q. Do you have any personal knowledge of that?
A. Of what?
Q. Have you seen anybody that has applied or been
with them when they applied for a permit?
A. I wasn’t with them, no.
Q. So all you know is what somebody else told you?
A. Well, yes, I could say it like that.
Q. Did you have any trouble getting out on bond
on this occasion?
A. Pardon.
Q. On the fourth time you said you were arrested,
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706 .
(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
on June 12th, 1961, did you have any trouble getting out on
bond?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
getting out on
did you?
No.
Did somebody make your bond for you?
Not to my knowledge , they didn * t , I don't guess.
You got out of jail, didn't you?
Yes.
You didn't have any trouble?
No, I didn't have any trouble.
All right. And you didn’t have any trouble
bond on any one of the other three occasions,
A. To my knowledge, no.
Q. All right. Now, these two times that you were
arrested down on Capitol Street — I believe the first was on
the 28th of May of '63, is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, who was with you on that occasion?
A. Well, I don’t remember them all by names. I
think I could only name about two of them.
Q. Well, give me the names of the two that you do
remember.
A. Doris Ruth Bracey, Eddie O'Neal,
something — I don't remember the last names. I
Joan or Janice
don't remembei
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707 .
the names.
(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
Q. Was there a Jeanette King with you?
A. Who?
Q. Jeanette King.
A. Jeanette King — it might have been Jeanette.
I'm not sure of their names.
Q. All right. Now, who organized this group?
Who got this group together? Since you didn't know some of
these people, I think somebody got —
A. It's not that I didn't know them. I know them
now, but I don't know them all by name, because the ones that
I don’t remember their names, they were white — white girls,
and the only thing — I remembered them — I remember one they
called Jan, one was called this and one was called that — just
called them by their first names. I don't remember their last
names.
Q. Where did you get together with this group?
A. Where did I get together with them? At the
Masonic Temple.
Q. What was that?
A. At the Masonic Temple on Lynch Street.
Q. At the Masonic Temple — so this was still the
NAACP?
A . Uh huh.
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708 .
(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
Q. All right, and both white and colored were
arrested on this occasion for the same offense?
A. Both white and colored were arrested on this
occasion.
Q. You had signs?
A. Yes.
Q. What did these signs say?
A. Oh, they were still talking about —
Q. On May the 28th?
A. On the 28th?
Q. Right.
A. The signs were: "we want equality", or
dom today” , or something of that nature. I don’t remember
the exact words.
Q. What sign did you have on?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Now, are you sure that you didn't have on a
sign that said: "don’t buy on Capitol Street" and "NAACP"?
A. That read what?
Q. Could you tell the Court that you did or did
not have on a sign which read: "don't buy on Capitol Street",
"NAACP"?
A. I couldn’t tell the Court that, because I
don't remember what was on my sign.
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(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
709 •
Q. Well, was that one of the signs, you say?
A. Some signs read that — read like that.
Q. Was this a part of this Jackson boycott thing?
A . Pardon.
Q. Was this a part of this boycott thing when you
were boycotting the stores on Capitol Street?
A. That's right.
Q. And you understood it to be a boycott of these
stores on Capitol Street?
A. Uh huh.
Q. All right. Now, let's move over to the 30th
of May. How many of you were arrested on that occasion?
A. I don't remember whether it was thirteen or
fourteen.
Q. Thirteen or fourteen of you. Now, if I were
to tell you it was fourteen, you would agree with that?
A. I don't remember whether it was thirteen or
fourteen.
Q. Well, in any event, it was thirteen or four
teen?
A. I think it was thirteen or fourteen.
Q. All right. Now, where was this?
A. Where was what?
Q. Where did this take place — this arrest?
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710 .
A.
(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
Downtown in front of the Post Office.
Q. Were all of you together?
A. Pardon m e .
Q. Were all of you together?
A. Did we all arrive here together?
Q. Well, you can answer that. Did you all arrive
together?
A. No.
Q. Where did you arrive from?
A. Where did we arrive from?
Q. Right.
A. Well, I don’t know where the others arrived
from, but when I left, I left from Lynch Street.
Q. From the NAACP office?
A. Pardon.
Q. From the NAACP office?
A. No, when I left, I didn’t leave from the
office .
Q. Well, was the NAACP the same group that or-
ganized this?
A. Pardon.
Q. Was the NAACP the same group that organized
this demonstration — this whatever it was you were in on the
30th of May?
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711 .
A.
(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
That’s right.
Q. That’s right?
A. Uh huh.
Q. All right. Now, were there others that joined
you at the Post Office then?
A. Yes .
Q. And I understand that you were inside the Post
Office for some fifteen or twenty minutes?
A. Ten or fifteen minutes.
Q. And what did you do in the Post Office?
A. What did I do in the Post Office?
Q. Right.
THE COURT:
Don’t repeat his question. You are making a
big record there that somebody will have to pay for. Just
answer his question. Listen very carefully to his question.
If you don’t understand it, ask him to repeat it, but don’t
you repeat it.
THE WITNESS:
Okay.
THE COURT:
All right.
THE WITNESS:
Your question again, sir?
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712 .
MR. TRAVIS:
(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
Q. What were you doing in the Post Office?
A. Oh, I was looking at different matters and
passing the time away really.
Q. Well, you had no real business in the Post
Office? You were just going through?
A. I had no business in there at that time, but
within the next ten or fifteen minutes, I had business there
because we planned to pray.
Q. So the only business you had was to get to
gether with this group of thirteen or fourteen people?
A. Pardon.
Q. The only business you had in the Post Office
was to get together with these thirteen or fourteen people?
A. Yes, that was the real reason.
Q. All right. Now, where did you get together
with them?
A. Where did we get together?
Q. That's right.
A. Before?
Q. In the Post Office — inside or outside?
A. Well, inside.
Q. Inside?
A. Some inside and some outside.
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713 .
(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
Q. Now, what did you do then?
A. What did we do?
U .S . MARSHAL THOMAS:
The Judge told you to quit repeating the ques
tion.
A. Oh, I'm sorry, but I was trying to understand
it better.
THE COURT:
Just be sure you do understand it, and if you
don't understand it, ask him to repeat it, so that you do.
You see, she’s taking everything you are saying, and you’re
just putting a whole lot in the record you don’t need, see.
Go ahead. Do you understand the question?
THE WITNESS:
Will you repeat the question, please?
MR. TRAVIS: (to the reporter)
Would you read the question back, please?
THE REPORTER:
Q. What did you do then?
THE WITNESS:
A. Oh, after the other group came up on the
front and I looked at the clock and saw it was about this
time and we stepped out of the Post Office, out on the steps.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. All right, what did you do then?
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714 .
(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
A. Well, Reverend King started praying.
Q. Reverend King started praying?
A. That’s right.
Q. And did you all group around him?
A. No, we didn’t group around him.
Q. You were spread out then on the steps? Were
you gathered around the man that was praying or spread out
on the steps or just what were you doing?
A. We were standing a distance apart on the — I
think it was the first three steps.
Q. And there were thirteen or fourteen of you?
A. Thirteen or fourteen.
Q. So the people had to move around you — the
people who were trying to use the steps?
A. No, we didn't block the doorway.
Q. Well, I’m not talking about the doorway —
I ’m talking about the steps. Did people have to move around
this large group that was spread out there?
A. I don’t understand your question. What
people?
Q. People that were other than yourselves?
A. Well, at the time nobody were trying to enter
the Post Office, if I understand your question.
Q. Well, let me ask you this. Isn’t it a fact
715 .
(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
that a large group of persons gathered there at the time?
A. Yes.
Q. And there was very nearly a lot of trouble?
A. I don't know about the trouble, but there were
a lot of people gathered.
Q. There was a large crowd, you are sure of that?
A. Yes .
Q. Now, how many meetings had you attended at
Tougaloo College about this?
A. I didn't meet at a meeting at Tougaloo College.
Q. You never have?
A. No.
Q. You knew Reverend King, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you know who he is?
A. I know he's Reverend King.
Q. Of Tougaloo College?
A. That's right.
Q. And you know he's on the faculty out there?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, on this occasion, on the 30th of May, there
were both white and members of your race in this group, is
that right?
A. There were both whites and Negroes, yes.
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716 .
(E. J. Thomas - Cross)
Q. Right. And you were all arrested for the same
offense?
A. We were all arrested.
Q. All right. And you didn't have any trouble
making bond on this occasion, did you?
A. I didn't have any trouble.
Q. I mean you got out of jail?
A. I got out of jail.
Q. Well, you didn't put up any of the money for bon<
yourself, did you?
A. No.
MR. TRAVIS:
That’s all.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MORRIS:
Q. On this occasion in front of the Post Office,
this building, were there any arrests made of the surrounding
crowd?
A. No, not as I know of, not to my knowledge.
Q. You didn't see any?
A. No.
Q. Why was the group gathered at the Post Office?
A. Well, I think this was on May 30th, Memorial
Day, and we were gathering to pray, to have prayer on the Post
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717 .
(E. J. Thomas - Redirect)
Office steps.
Q. Any other reason for it?
A. Pardon.
Q. Any other reason for it?
A. Well, we were still protesting.
Q. Now, on June 12th, that was on Lynch Street —
the Lynch Street occasion?
A. That’s right.
Q. Where were you in the group? Were you walking
in the front or the middle or the back?
A. In the front.
Q. Now, how did that group proceed? That is, were
they in any formation?
A. We were walking in two’s.
THE COURT:
Were you on the landing? The north steps of
the Post Office has several steps up to a landing and then
it has fewer steps up to a second landing before you enter
the Post Office. Were you on this first landing or were you
just on the steps?
THE WITNESS:
Just as you walk out. We stopped at that first
step there.
THE COURT:
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718
(E. J. Thomas - Redirect)
The first step, all right — on the first land
ing — you were on the first landing from the top?
THE WITNESS:
We were on the first landing from the top.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Now, on the 12th, had you been, prior to the
time you were out on the street, in the auditorium of the
Masonic Building?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's where you came from onto the street?
A. That's where we came from.
Q. Now, when you were arrested on the 12th — you
were arrested?
A. I was arrested.
Q. How were you removed to whatever facilities
they had?
A. Well, we were loaded into the paddy wagons by
the numbers, packed, you know. We all didn’t have a seat —
we were sitting on each other. And on our way there — well,
we rocked on the way there, because the driver of the wagon
would drive fast and throw on the brakes and that’s the way
we made it to the fairgrounds.
MR. WATKINS:
May it please the Court —
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719 .
THE COURT:
(E. J. Thomas - Redirect)
Just a minute.
THE WITNESS:
They loaded us into the buildings when we went
down into the fairgrounds.
MR. WATKINS:
May it please the Court, we object to that for
the reason that question was not gone into on cross-examina
tion — what occurred after the arrests on Lynch Street.
for
We have no particular reason/not going into it, but we will
string this thing out forever if new subjects are brought up
on redirect.
THE COURT:
Well, I think the better practice is to ask all
of your direct questions before you turn the witness over,
and I'll overrule the objection this time.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. And when you arrived at the fairgrounds, when
were you unloaded from the trucks?
A. About thirty-five or forty minutes after I
arrived there.
Q. What were you doing this thirty-five or forty
minutes?
A. Sitting in the paddy wagon.
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7 20 .
(E. J. Thomas - Redirect)
Q. What kind of wagon was it — was it closed or
open?
A. I was in one of these little black ones. It
was closed.
Q. And was it closed during this period of time?
A. Yes, it was closed.
Q. Do you remember what the temperature was that
day?
A. Whatever it was, it was very hot. I don't
remember — in the nineties.
Q. You stated that you volunteered to participate
in these things at a meeting. Was it one of the mass meetings
A. One of the mass meetings, yes.
Q. And there were people there from various organi
zations and ministers?
A. Yes.
MRS. MORRIS:
I have no further questions.
THE COURT:
I believe we will take a fifteen minute recess.
(After a fifteen minute recess, the
proceedings resumed as follows:)
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721 .
(Palmer - Direct)
MRS. HATTIE PALMER
being called as a witness by Plaintiff and having first b e e n
duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
MRS. MORRIS:
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
THE COURT:
A
MRS. MORRIS:
Q
A
Q
Park?
A
Q
did you get
A
Q
Give us your name and where you live.
My name is Hattie Palmer.
Do you live in Jackson?
Yes'm.
How long have you lived in Jackson?
For sixteen years.
Speak out.
For sixteen years.
How old are you?
Seventeen.
Now, during June of 1963 did you visit Riverside
Yes.
And under what circumstances did you go there? How
there?
Pardon?
Pardon? How did you go there? Did you go with a
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722 .
group
dicin'
knew?
them,
ed?
(P a lm e r - D i r e c t )
or did you go by yourself?
A I went by myself.
Q Did you go by yourself?
A Yes.
Q Were you arrested on that occasion?
A Yes.
Q Under what circumstances?
A He didn't — he didn't — he just arrested me, he
give me no charge or anything.
Q Were there any other people with you?
A When I got there.
Q And how many people were there with you that you
A All of them.
Q How many?
A About twenty.
Q And what were you doing in the park?
A Swinging.
Q And how long were you there?
A For about thirty-five minutes.
Q Just give me these things as best you can recall
to the best of your recollection. Now, were you arrest-
A Yes.
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(Palmer - Direct)
0 And how did you come to be arrested? Did the
policeman say anything to you?
A Yes.
Q What did he say?
A He said that "You are under arrest". He didn't
tell me what charge or anything.
Q Were you still in the park when this happened?
A Yes.
MR. WATKINS:
May it please the Court, we want to pin down the
testimony from now on. It is not within the frame
work of the Complaint in this case, apparently
involving a city park.
THE COURT:
The same ruling. Go ahead.
MRS. MORRIS:
May I say this for the record? I would like to
point out the difference between these events
which took place in 1963, and they were all a part
of the same incident, as opposed to the ones that
took place in 1961.
THE COURT:
Well, this is a 1961 incident, isn't it?
_____________ _______________________ 7 23 .
MRS. MORRIS:
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724 .
(Mrs. Hattie Palmer - Direct)
No, we are talking about 1963.
THE COURT:
Well, she said she was arrested in 1961 in River
side Park, I understood.
MRS. MORRIS (Continuing):
Q When were you arrested in Riverside Park?
A June the 18th.
Q What year?
A 1963.
Q Do you know what charge you were arrested for?
A No.
Q Was there any other — were there any other people
in the park when you were there?
A There were two couples.
Q This was Riverside Park?
A Yes.
Q Is this a park that is customarily used by white
persons in Jackson?
A That's right.
Q And you are a Negro, are you not?
A That's right.
Q And what was the group that was with you?
A (Inaudible reply)
Q We can't hear you. The group that was with you,
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725 .
(Mrs. Hattie Palmer - Direct)
were they white or Negro?
A Negroes.
Q Now, when you were arrested where were you taken?
A To the city jail.
Q And how long were you there?
A For about five days.
Q Now, on a prior occasion when you were arrested in
1963 —
A Pardon?
Q On a date before that, an occasion before the one
we are talking about now, were you arrested in 1963?
A Yes.
Q When was that?
A June the 7th.
Q And what were you doing on June the 7th?
A They say I was parading without permission.
Q Well, you tell me what you were doing.
A I was simply going up Capitol Street with a United
States flag.
Q And were there any other people along with you?
You were in a group?
A Yes.
Q And how far apart were you?
A About three foot.
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726 .
(Mrs. Hattie Palmer - Direct)
Q How many were in the group?
A Five.
Q What portion of the sidewalk were you walking on?
A On the outside.
Q Is that the curb side?
A Yes, the curb side.
Q Was there sufficient room for other people to pass
you?
A Yes, it was.
Q Were other people passing you?
A Yes.
Q How long were you there out on Capitol Street?
A About ten minutes.
Q And were you arrested?
A Yes.
Q What happened at the time you were arrested? Did
the policeman say anything to you?
A He gave us some bad names and things like that.
Q Did he say anything about arresting you?
A Yes, he said that we was arrested.
^ Did he tell you why?
A For parading without a permit.
Q Now, were you removed to the jail then?
A No, I was taken to the fair grounds.
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7 2 7
( M r s . H a t t i e P a l m e r - D i r e c t )
Q A n d h o w l o n g w e r e y o u t h e r e ?
A I w a s t h e r e f o r t h i r t e e n d a y s , a n d t h i r t e e n —
t h i r t e e n d a y s a n d f o u r t e e n h o u r s .
Q N o w , w e r e y o u — w e l l , h o w d i d y o u r c a s e c o m e u p ,
d i d i t c o m e u p b e f o r e a j u v e n i l e a u t h o r i t y ?
A J u v e n i l e .
Q A n d w h a t h a p p e n e d a s a r e s u l t o f i t ?
A W e h a d o u r t r i a l a n d — w i l l y o u r e p e a t t h a t a g a i n ,
p l e a s e ?
Q L e t m e s e e i f I c a n m a k e i t e a s i e r f o r y o u . Y o u
c a m e b e f o r e J u d g e G u e r n s e y ?
A Y e s .
Q A n d w h a t d i d h e h a v e y o u d o ? O r w h a t d i d h e s a y
t o y o u w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o w h a t y o u h a d b e e n d o i n g ?
A H e t o l d u s h e c o u l d s e n d u s t o t h e f a r m f o r s i x
m o n t h s , I t h i n k , b u t h e w a s g o i n g t o r e l e a s e u s t o t h e c u s t o d y
o f o u r p a r e n t s .
Q A n d w e r e y o u r e l e a s e d t o t h e c u s t o d y o f y o u r
p a r e n t s ?
A Y e s .
Q W e r e y o u r e q u i r e d t o d o a n y t h i n g e l s e ?
A Y e s .
Q W h a t w a s i t ?
A O n t h e 7 t h , t h e d a y t h a t I w e n t t o R i v e r s i d e , y o u
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728 .
(Mrs. Hattie Palmer - Direct)
know, that was the second time.
Q Yes?
A Well, that time was — they put me in custody to
go to school.
^ And what kind of school was this?
A I don't know exactly. You know, all the Judge said
was, you know, that we had to go to school and study up on our
— some of the lessons that we had lost in school.
Q Now, did they provide such a school?
A Not at first.
Q What happened at first?
A They had us in a courtroom, you know, and —
Q How many of you?
A Just few, it was just a few, like in and out.
Q And how long did you have to stay in the courtroom?
A We stayed there, at first it was from eight-thirty
until three.
Q And what happened? What did you do during that
time?
A Just there, we didn't have a teacher or anything,
we was just staying there.
Q And was that changed later?
A Yeah, it changed.
Q What happened later?
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729 .
(Mrs. Hattie Palmer - Direct)
A After some more students started coming in to, you
know, to the classes, well, they took us to the fair grounds
and they left us down there.
Q How many times did you have to go to the fair
grounds?
A We went to the fair grounds two days.
Q And what happened while you were at the fair
grounds?
A We still didn't do any studying that day but they
just left us there one day.
Q Was there anybody else down there other than the
juveniles who had been participating in the protest demonstra
tions?
A They had one policemans — one policeman down there
and a teacher, they said. A teacher, you know, but he wasn't
doing anything.
Q Did the teacher teach?
A No.
Q What did you do during this period?
A Nothing.
Q Now, there came a time when this group of students
did not go back to the fair grounds, and how soon after these
first few days was that?
A It was about three days after then.
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7 30 .
(Mrs. Hattie Palmer - Direct)
Q And what happened after that?
A They came and picked us up and put us back in
school.
Q Now at this time what type of school did you go to?
A The same kind of school, they put us in another
school.
Q It was an actual school building?
A It was a elementary school.
Q Now, was there anybody there besides the juveniles?
A The teacher.
Q And how long did you have to go there?
A Until school started. I think it was about — I
don't know, I can't recall exactly how many days it was.
Q Between what hours were you there?
A Oh, from eight-thirty until twelve.
Q And you were there from the time you were arrested
until the time school started in September, every day?
A Yes.
Q Now, those days that you were at the fair grounds
as part of this court school how would you get to the rair
grounds?
A
Q
A
They took us in a paddy wagon.
From where?
From the county jail to the fair grounds in a
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731 .
(Hattie Palmer - Direct)
a paddy wagon.
Q Now when this arrangement was made by the juvenile
judge —
A Yes?
Q — did he tell you what was going to happen to you?
A No.
Q Did he say anything about the school you were go • ng
to?
A He didn't say anything but we had to go to school.
Q And did he make any provisions about food or trans
portation?
A At first he said we would have — at first he said
we would have dinner, you know, and then after so many started
coming in, well, we didn't have any more dinner, and so they
released us, said we could go at twelve.
Q Now, the people you were with in Riverside Park,
you said they were swinging, were using facilities?
A Yes.
Q Were they particularly loud and boisterous or rude?
A No.
Q Were there any other people in Riverside Park?
A About two couples.
Q What were these two couples, were they white or
Negro?
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732 .
(Hattie Palmer - Direct)
A White.
Q Now, on these two occasions why were you partici
pating in these activities?
A I was protesting against segregation, discrimina
tion against Negroes.
Q And did you volunteer for this?
A Yes.
Q Through what medium? How did you get there?
A How did I get there?
Q How did you get in these two activities?
A I thought it was about time for the Negroes to wake
up. You know, protest against what the whites was giving us.
They wasn't giving us anything.
MRS. MORRIS:
I have no further questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
MR. TRAVIS:
Q Would you tell me the date of your arrest that you
say occurred when there were twenty of you in Riverside Park?
A The 18th of June.
Q The 18th of June?
A Yes.
q Are you sure it wasn't the 18th of July?
A The 18th of June.
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733 .
(Hattie Palmer - Cross)
Q. And you say there were twenty of you out there
together at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. You are sure of that?
A. Positive,
Q. And all twenty of you were arrested?
A, Yes.
Q. It wouldn't surprise you if I told you that it
was in July -- July the 18th, and there were only ten of you?
A. It was June the 18th and there was twenty of us.
Q. What is your middle name?
A. Zelpha.
Q. Would you spell it for me?
A. Z-e-l-p-h-a. (Spelling)
Q. All right. You live at 2924 Bailey Avenue?
A. Yes .
Q. And you still say this was June and not July?
A. June.
Q. All right. Then what was the date of the other
arrest?
A. The 7th of June.
Q. Did you say second or seventh?
A. Seven — August the 6th.
Q. Now, this was — you were down on Capitol Street
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V 3 4 .
(Hattie Palmer - Cross)
in this boycott thing on that occasion, were you not, that the
NAACP was sponsoring?
A. No.
Q. Well, what were you doing down there?
A. I was carrying an American Flag.
Q. Carrying an American Flag?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. How many people were with you on
this occasion?
A. Five.
Q. Five of them — who were they?
A. I don't remember their names.
Q. Would you tell me the names you do remember?
A. I don't remember any of the names.
Q. You don't remember any of the names? Well, how
did you get with these five people that you don't even know
the names of now or then?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Were they doing the same thing you were doing?
A. Yes.
Q. And you all — just five or six of you got to
gether on the street and nobody knew you were there or what
you were there for -- you were just there with the flag? Is
that what you want the Court to understand? You had no reason
(Hattie Palmer - Cross)
for being there, in common with the other five persons?
THE COURT:
Are you going to answer or not?
THE WITNESS:
That's right.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. That's right. Nobody encouraged you to go down
there, you just went and joined five people you didn't even
know and had never seen before?
A. That's right.
Q. That's right. And where did you come from with
these five people that you had never seen before? Did you
just meet them there on the street or did you join them some
place and come down there to where you were arrested?
A. Pardon?
Q. I didn't understand you. Speak out, please?
A. Pardon?
MRS. MORRIS:
She said "pardon".
MR. TRAVIS:
I still didn't understand the answer. Did you
say you didn't understand me. Excuse me.
Q. I said where did you join these five people that
you were with on this occasion? Where did you get with them?
736
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1 (Hattie Palmer - Cross)
A. On Capitol Street.
Q. On Capitol Street, and you want us to — you are
telling us that you joined five people on Capitol Street that
you didn't know and had never seen before, and you all were in
this thing together, is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, have you been arrested again other than
these two times you have mentioned?
A. Yes.
Q. Why didn't you tell us about that before?
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to that. I didn’t ask her
about it.
MR. TRAVIS:
Well, let me ask her about it.
THE COURT:
All right. Go ahead.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Have you been arrested on any occasion other
than the two times you mentioned to the attorney who was ques
tioning you before I?
A. Would you state that question again, please?
Q. Were you arrested on August the 8th?
A. Sixth.
(II. Palmer - Cross)
Q.
A.
Q.
occasion?
A.
Q.
arrested on
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
arrested on?
A.
Q.
what court?
A.
Q.
nile Court?
August the 6th?
Yes.
How many persons were arrested with you on that
I don't remember exactly.
Where was it? On August the 6th, where were you
that occasion?
I was at home.
At home?
Yes .
What was the basis of the charge that you were
Contempt of court or something.
Contempt of court — and it was contempt of
The juvenile court.
Juvenile Court. Were you in contempt of Juve-
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to that. It calls for a
legal conclusion she's not competent to make.
THE COURT:
I sustain the objection.
MR. TRAVIS:
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738 .
(H. Palmer - Cross)
Q. You are most indefinite about the people with
you on the occasion when you were arrested on Capitol Street.
What about the twenty people you were arrested with on the
other occasion? Did you know any of them?
A. At the park?
Q. Right. Did you know any of them?
A. A couple of them.
Q. All right, where did you get together with these
twenty people?
A. At the park.
Q. At the park?
A. I went to the park.
Q. And you just — that was just coincidental that
the twenty of you there were together? There was no — no
body organized it or put you together there, you just went, is
that right?
A. That's right.
Q. And you didn't know the other twenty people were
going to be there, and they didn't know you were going to be
there until you got there — is that what you want us to
understand?
A. I said I know a couple of them.
Q. Well, the two — the couple — I assume that's
two or three that you know, or knew, is that right?
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739
(H. Palmer - Cross)
A. That’s right.
Q. Well, other than those two or three that you
knew — did you all go there together, the two or three that
you knew?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, assuming there were three, you would make
four and that would leave sixteen. Are we to assume that thes
other sixteen people just went to the park on their own and
nobody got them together? You all had no prior communication
with each other, you just happened to be together, just twenty
of you at the park at the same time?
A. I don't know about the others.
Q. And you didn't even know that the other sixteen
were going to be at the park?
A. That's right.
Q. That's right. They just happened to be there
at the same time you were?
MRS. MORRIS:
THE WITNESS:
Are you frightened, Hattie, or nervous?
No.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS MORRIS:
Q. Now, let's go back through these things. You
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740 .
(H. Palmer - Redirect)
were in Riverside Park?
A. Yes.
Q. To the best of your recollection, it was June?
A. Yes, it was June.
Q. Is there a possibility it could have been in
July?
A. No, it wasn't in July.
Q. You believe it to be in June?
A. It was in June.
Q. That's the best of your recollection. Now, had
you been attending meetings at the Masonic Temple?
A. A couple of them.
Q. And hadn't discussions taken place concerning
picketing on Capitol Street?
A. I don't remember.
Q. You don't remember any?
A. I don't remember any case where they said to
picket on Capitol Street.
Q. Do you remember how you got to Capitol Street
on the 7th?
A. No.
Q. Did you get there by car or did you walk?
A . Car.
Q. Do you remember who was driving the car?
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741 .
(H. Palmer - Redirect)
A. I don't remember the driver.
Q. Where did the car come from?
A. I don’t remember.
Q, Did it come from the Masonic Temple?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Do you remember any of the people who were with
you?
A. No.
Q. In the park, tell me the names of the people
you remember who were in the park with you?
A. I remember Hezekiah.
Q. Hezekiah who?
A. Watkins — that's a Negro. And Jean Young, I
think — yeah, Jean Young.
Q. Now, where had you seen these people before?
A. I know them from school.
Q. Now, had you spoken in the school about going
to the park?
A. No, they said: let's go to the park.
Q. And where were they when they said that?
A. I don't exactly remember.
Q. Do you remember whether it was at the school or
not?
A. No, it wasn't in school.
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(H. Palmer - Redirect)
Q. It wasn't in school?
A. No.
Q, Well, was it at the Masonic Temple?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Do you remember whether it was in church or not?
MR. WATKINS:
May it please the Court, we have let counsel
lead this witness, cross-examine her and two or three other
things, but we think she has gone far enough.
THE COURT:
I sustain the objection. It looks like you have
found out about all she knows.
_________________________________ __________________________________ 742 ♦
MRS. MORRIS:
THE COURT:
I didn't hear you.
I sustained the objection.
MRS. MORRIS:
Yes. I didn't hear the remark that followed
that, sir.
THE COURT:
I said it looks to me like you have found out
about all she knows.
MRS. MORRIS:
All right. I have no further questions.
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743 .
(M. Dennis - Direct)
MR. BELL:
We call Mrs. Mattie Bivins Dennis.
MATTIE BIVINS DENNIS
After having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MORRIS:
Q. What is your name?
A. My name is Mrs. Mattie Bivins Dennis.
Q. And where were you born?
A. Hattiesburg, Mississippi.
Q. How long have you lived in Jacksqn?
A. I have lived here since December of '62.
Q. Now, were you arrested on May 29th, 1963?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. What were you doing on that occasipn?
A. Well, on that occasion, I attempted to picket
in front of the Penney Store.
Q. How many people were with you?
A. There were about three or four other persons.
Q. Did you get a chance to picket, in fact?
A. Well, not really, because as soon as I put the
sign on, I was arrested.
Q. What did the sign say?
A. Well, it said either "don't buy segregation" or
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744 .
(M. Dennis - Direct)
"don't shop on Capitol Street".
Q. Had any other persons had time to picket?
A. No, none of us had time.
Q. How long were you on the street?
A. Well, not very long before the policemen arrest
ed u s . However, we stood there for maybe three or four min
utes after the arrest for a paddy wagon to come.
Q. Did you see any of these people walking? Were
they able to walk? Were they able to picket, in fact, before
they were arrested?
A. No. All of us were arrested immediately.
Q. Do you know what you were charged with?
A. To the best of my knowledge, we were charged
with obstructing the sidewalk.
Q. You are a Negro, are you not?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. When you were arrested, where were you taken?
A. To the City Jail.
Q. How long were you there?
A. Well, for several hours.
Q. Now, was there another occasion when you were
arrested in that area?
A. Yes, there was another occasion.
Q. And when was that?
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745 .
(M. Dennis - Direct)
A. That was May the 30th.
Q. And what happened on that occasion? Where
were you?
A. On that occasion, I attempted to pray on the
Post Office steps. This was a very quiet and orderly thing,
and as soon as we walked out, we were told immediately that
we would have to leave.
Q. Were there policemen in that area?
A. Yes, there were many policemen.
Q. Now, did the policemen appear before or after
you got out in front of the Post Office?
A. They were already there when we walked out.
Q. And what were they doing?
A. They were standing all around the area.
Q. Do you know how many were there?
A. No, I don't know exactly how many there were.
Q. How were you standing on the steps — in what
formation were you people standing on the steps and you
had better tell me how many there were of you to the best of
your recollection?
A. Well, I think maybe there was about — maybe
twelve, thirteen, or fourteen of us, something like that.
Q. And were you standing so that any of the en—
trances or exits to the Post Office were blocked?
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746 .
A.
(M. Dennis - Direct)
Some of them were blocked, not all of them.
Q. Where?
A. You mean which ones were blocked? Well, we
were standing, more or less, in the center, so therefore,
the outer doors should not have been blocked.
Q. Now, was there anybody in that area moving at
that time?
A. Well, there were a lot of white people moving
around, in that area
Q. Where were they — on the inside or the out-
side?
A. Well, they were both on the inside and the out-
side .
Q. And the group on the inside — where were they
standing?
A. They were standing all over the Post Office.
Q. Were they looking out?
A. Yes.
Q. And the group on the outside — where were they?
A. They were standing around looking at us.
Q. So at the time, nobody was going up and down
the steps but yOU — your group that was standing there?
A. No, nobody was.
Q. Do you remember how long you were out there?
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7 4 7.
(M. Dennis - Direct)
A. Well, we weren't there very long. I don't know
exactly how long, because as soon as we walked out, he said
that we would have to move on.
Q. Who is "he"?
A. That's Captain Ray.
Q. Did anybody move?
A. No.
Q. And were you subsequently arrested?
A. Yes, we were.
Q. And where were you taken?
A. We were taken to the City Jail.
Q. Do you know what charges they placed against you?
A. Breach of the peace.
Q. How long were you in the City Jail?
A. Well, I was there overnight — until the follow
ing night.
Q. Now, the persons who you said were standing in
the crowd, were they quiet or noisy?
A. Well, they were sort of noisy, because there was
a lot of talk going on.
Q. Was it a hostile crowd?
A. I should think so.
Q. Were any arrests made of the people in the crowd?
A. Not to my knowledge.
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748 .
ties?
(M. Dennis - Direct)
Q. Now, why were you participating in these activi
A. Well, I was participating in them because that
was the only means that I had to express my feelings to the
public, because the Mayor refused to hear us and the papers —
newspapers won't print our feelings.
Q. Your feelings about what?
A. Well, about racial segregation.
Q. Where?
A. Where? Here in Mississippi
Q. Have you lived in Mississippi all your life?
A. Yes, I have.
MRS. MORRIS:
I have no further questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. NICHOLS:
Q. With regard to your arrest on May 29th, you were
walking along where on Capitol Street?
A. In front of the Penney Store.
Q. In front of the J. C. Penney Store on Capitol
Street.
A. Yes.
Q, Were you wearing any kind of a sign or placard
or anything?
749 .
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Buy Segretat
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
picked it up
Q.
that offense
A.
Q.
Court?
A.
Q.
lawyer?
(M. Dennis - Cross)
Yes, I was.
Did that sign or placard have any writing on it?
Yes, it did.
What did your sign say?
Well, it either said something similar to: "Don't
ion" or "Don't Shop on Capitol Street".
And did you make that sign yourself?
No, I didn't.
Did someone else make it and give it to you?
Well, I imagine somebody else did make it. I
at the NAACP office.
Now, you were arrested and afforded a trial for
in the City Court, were you not?
I beg your pardon.
Did you have a trial on that charge in the City
Yes, I did.
And weren't you represented at the trial by a
A. Yes.
Q. As a matter of fact, you were represented by the
Honorable Jack Young, who sits here at the table today, were
you not?
A. I think so.
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7 50 .
(M. Dennis - Cross)
Q. Is it not true that you were acquitted in open
Court of that charge at that trial?
A. What do you mean by —
Q. You were found not guilty by the Court that day?
A. That day?
Q. Yes.
A. To the best of my knowledge, I think we were
found guilty, or that it was postponed and later when I — I
was told that it had been dropped or dismissed or something.
Q. Who told you that?
A. Attorney Young.
Q. All right. Now, with regard to the Post Office
business, what day was that on, please?
A. It was May 30th.
Q. May 30th, 1963?
A. Yes .
Q, And approximately how many of you were together
that day?
A. Well, to the best of my knowledge, there was
twelve, thirteen or fourteen. I don't know the exact number.
Q. Was this a mixed group?
A. Do you have reference to Negroes and whites?
Q . Yes.
A. Yes, it was a mixed group.
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751 .
(M. Dennis - Cross)
Q. Now, was William P. Hutchinson, Jr. in that
group?
A. I think so.
Q. I believe he is white, is he not?
A. Well, I should think so.
Q. Now, where were you standing in relation to the
sidewalk and the steps?
A. In relation to the sidewalk and the steps — I
was standing on the steps.
Q. How far away from the sidewalk?
A. Well, I don't know exactly. Maybe I was stand
ing, I believe on the second step down as you come out of the
Post Office. I believe it was the second step.
Q. I think if you will recollect, the Post Office
here in Jackson has two lanes — the one where the door is,
and you step down to another landing, and you go to a third
level to get on the street, is that not correct?
A. Possibly so, but I had stepped off the first one
as you come out of the door. I had stepped off of that one.
Q. You were in the middle section there?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, was all of your group standing there?
A. We were standing rather close together, maybe
some up or down.
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7 2.
(M. Dennis - Cross)
Q. Was anyone in front of you?
A. Yes, there were.
Q. Were they on the same level with you or were
they standing on the steps toward the sidewalk?
A. There were some on the same level where I was
standing, and there were others just below me.
Q. Do you belong to any particular church or reli
gion?
A. Yes.
Q.
A.
What is that?
I am a member of the Farish Street Baptist Church
here in Jackson.
Q. I don't know whether you said or not, but was
there any praying going on here on the steps?
A. Beg your pardon.
Q. Were there any attempts at prayer on the steps
that day?
A. Yes.
Q. And was there a leader in the group — someone
leading a prayer?
A. Well, there was someone who was praying.
Q. Who was that?
A. I think that was Reverend King.
Q. Reverend King?
753 .
(M. Dennis - Cross)
A. Yes.
Q. And don't you know of your own knowledge that
Reverend King professes a Methodist faith, does he not?
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to that line of questioning.
I think it's wholly irrelevant to which faith any particular
person follows, as far as that protest meeting was concerned.
MR. NICHOLS:
If the Court will allow me, I intend to connect
it up.
THE COURT:
Overruled.
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Is that not true, that Reverend King is of the
Methodist faith?
A. Probably so. I don't know.
Q. Then I'm at a loss to wonder why you, a Baptist,
goes down to a public place here on the streets of Jackson, or
a few feet off the street, and joins in prayer with a Metho
dist minister. Did you have any particular reason for that
form of demonstration?
A. My reason for going down was as a protest against
segregation.
Q. Now, do you know the names of the persons that
754 .
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were with you that day?
(M. Dennis - Cross)
A. No, I don't know the names of all the persons.
Q. Where did you meet these persons?
A. Where did I meet them?
Q. Yes.
A. Well, all except one, I met them there.
Q. You met them there?
A. Yes.
Q. In other words, you came to the Post Office
with one of the persons, is that correct?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And where did you meet the person with whom you
came to the Post Office?
A. I met him on Lynch Street at the NAACP office.
Q. Do you know where the other people assembled
before they went to the Post Office?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Now, was this protest in support of the boycott
movement that the NAACP had started?
A. Well, yes.
Q. Now, you spoke that the Mayor had refused to
hear you, that was one reason you wanted to go down and pro
test that day?
A. That's correct.
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(M. Dennis - Cross)
Q. Now, have you personally attempted to have an
audience with Mayor Thompson?
A. No, I have not, but there were persons who
represented.
Q. Do you know of your own — have you ever been
with anyone who went down there to get an audience and was
refused?
A. No, I have not.
Q. So what you know about it, you don’t know of
your own knowledge, is that correct? In other words, someone
told you?
A. Well, that's true.
Q. Now, this crowd that gathered around you — I
believe you said they were a bit unruly and weren't friendly
toward you that day?
A. That's correct.
Q. As a matter of fact, this was building up to
where you could almost feel that something was going to
happen, was it not?
A. You mean among the other people —
Q . Yes.
A. — or among my people?
Q. Among the other people.
A. Well, I should think so. However, my group was
_____________ ____________________________________________________________755 .
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756 .
very orderly.
(M. Dennis - Cross)
Q. And you understood the officer when he asked
you to move on, did you not? You heard him?
A. Yes, I heard him.
Q. And you refused to move on?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And were you one of the parties who sat down
when he placed you under arrest?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Is it not true that some of your group sat down
and refused to accompany the officer after he placed them
under arrest?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Is it not true that Reverend King sat down on
the level ground there at the steps?
A. Well, I couldn't say what he did, because I was
one of the first persons to get in the wagon. I don't know.
Q. I see. Now, at the time that you decided to
make this protest demonstration, what did you understand that
this boycott meant? What was the purpose of it?
A. What was the purpose of the boycott? Well, the
purpose — well, some of the purposes was that we would boy
cott until we were treated like first class citizens, you
know — until women who shopped downtown would be called Miss
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757 •
(M. Dennis - Cross)
or Mrs., and that we would receive all the other courtesies
given to everyone else.
Q. Are you personally willing to carry this boy
cott to the extent that it possibly might help put someone out
of business?
A. Until what? I personally wanted to carry this
boycott to get the things that I wanted.
Q. Even if it meant putting someone out of busi
ness?
A. Well, if it took that.
Q. Then your answer is yes.
A. Yes.
MR. NICHOLS:
No further questions, Your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Did you tell me how long you were on the Post
Office steps before you were arrested?
A. Well, I was there for a very short while.
Q. Now, you say this was in accordance with a
boycott program, Were there any other reasons you were pro
testing?
A. I was protesting, not only because of the boy
cott, but because of the segregated system here in Mississippi.
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758 .
(M. Dennis - Redirect)
Q. Have you ever been to a church other than a
Baptist church?
A. Yes, I have been to other churches other than
Baptist churches.
MRS. MORRIS:
questions.
Thank you, Mrs. Dennis. I have no further
(Witness excused)
THERESA EASLEY
After having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MORRIS:
Q. What is your name?
A. Theresa Easley.
Q. Do you live in Jackson, Mrs. Easley?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you lived in Jackson?
A. About nine years.
Q. Please keep your voice as loud as you can.
Now, in December of 1963, were you arrested?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Can you tell me how you got arrested? What
were you doing when you were arrested?
A. I was walking along the sidewalk with a flag
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759 .
(T. Easley - Direct)
in my hand.
Q. Were you carrying anything else?
A. That's all I had, just a flag in my hand.
Q. And you were walking along what street?
A. On Capitol Street.
Q. Were there any other persons that you knew
about that were out there?
A. Yes, there were five more.
Q. Where were they?
A. They was on Capitol Street, too. Three on one
side and three was on the other side
Q. And how far apart were they?
A. About fifteen feet apart.
Q. And where had you started to walk?
A. One started there by the Parisian and the
other was down by Woolworth's and the other was on down fur-
ther.
Q. Now, were you doing anything other than w a l k -
ing?
A. No.
Q. And how long did you walk?
A. About five minutes.
Q. Were there people going by?
A. Yes.
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760 .
(T. Easley - Direct)
Q. Did any crowd gather or did anybody stop?
A. No.
Q. And what happened at the end of those five
minutes?
A. The police come up and told us we was under
arrest, and another one come up behind us and say: give me
your flag.
Q. Do you know what you were charged with?
A. Yes, walking without a permit and carrying a
flag — blocking the sidewalk.
Q. Have you been tried in any of these, to your
knowledge, in the Municipal Court here?
A. Yes, we were tried once.
Q . Were you found guilty?
A. No.
Q . To the best of your knowledge?
A. To the best of my knowledge, we were not.
Q . This happened when — about what time?
A. It was about — oh, I would say a quarter aftei
two.
Q . Now, in addition to these flags, were you
wearing anything in particular?
A, We was wearing tee-shirts.
Q, And was anything on them?
761.
(T. Easley - Direct)
A. Was a sign on them.
Q. Was there any sign — in addition to the tee-
shirt or on the tee-shirt — explain to me what you mean by
sign?
A. A sign was on the tee-shirt.
Q. In other words, there were things written on
the tee-shirts?
A. Written on the tee-shirts.
Q. And what was on it?
A. Some of them said "remember Evers", "remember
Kennedy", and "I want freedom", and "freedom now", and so on
like that.
Q. You are a Negro, are you not?
A. I am a Negro.
Q. Now, where did you meet these other people
before you got to Capitol Street?
A. I met them over at Shady Oaks.
Q. Where is Shady Oaks?
A. I just don't remember the street.
Q. Well, you had planned to meet on Capitol
Street?
A. Yes, we had planned it.
Q. And to walk down there?
A. Yes.
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762 .
Q.
(T. Easley - Direct)
Do you work, Mrs. Easley?
A. No.
Q. I mean other than house work — you stay at
home?
A. No, I'm not working at present. I was a beaut>
operator.
Q. What portion of the sidewalk were you walking
on on this day?
A. We were walking on the side next to the — on
the off-side over next to the meters.
Q. The curb side?
A. The curb side.
Q. And you were fifteen feet apart, approximately'
A. Yes.
MRS. MORRIS:
That's all. Thank you.
CROS S-EXAMINATION
BY MR. NICHOLS:
Q. What time of day did this arrest occur?
A. I would say it was about fifteen minutes after
two.
Q. What day of the week was December the 6th on,
do you remember?
A. It was on a Friday.
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(T. Easley - Cross)
Q. Right before Christmas, of course, being Dec
ember the 6th. Now, is it not true that there was quite a
large number of Christmas shoppers downtown at that time?
A . No.
Q. What are you telling me — the street was abso
lutely bare?
_____________ ________ _________________ _________________________________ 763 .
A. It wasn’t absolutely bare, but it wasn't quite
as many of them down there.
Q. Now, were you in front of any particular store
in the one hundred block?
A. Was I standing in front — we was going to and
from.
Q. At the time you were arrested, were you in
front of any particular store?
A. I think I was in the front of about — along
about Woolworth's, somewhere along in there.
Q. Woolworth's?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, Woolworth's is down in the middle of that
long block on Capitol Street, is it not?
A. It is.
Q. Are you absolutely positive you weren't arrest
ed in front of Wilson's Store, which would be on the eastern
end of that long block?
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(T. Easley - Cross)
764 .
A. I'm not positive, because I wasn't really
watching to see just exactly what.
Q. Well, how far did you walk — where did you
start walking?
A. Started walking at the Parisian Store — in
front of Parisians.
Q. The Parisian Store — that's up on the corner
of Lamar and Capitol, is it not?
A. That's right.
Q. And you were walking west on Capitol Street?
A. Yes.
Q. And Woolworth's must be three hundred yards
down that block, is it not?
A. I don't know how many yards it is.
Q. It's the length of a good sized football field
before you get down to Woolworth’s, isn't it?
A. I really don't know how many yards it is.
Q. Well, it's a far piece down there, isn't it?
A. It's a piece down there, but I don't know just
how far, how many yards.
Q. As a matter of fact, Woolworth's is almost
at the end of that long block going west, isn't it?
A. No, it's not almost at the end, because —
Q. Well, it's in the middle of it?
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765 .
(T. Easley - Cross)
A. — there’s some more stores on down.
Q. All right. Now, you say you walked all the
way from the Parisian, the eastern end of that long block,
down to Woolworth's, which is across from the picture show
down there, isn’t it?
A. Yes.
Q. You say you walked all the way down there and
that’s where you were arrested?
A. I mean I didn’t walk myself — we was just
walking to and from.
Q. Well, did you walk to Woolworth’s and go on
back up the street?
A. We was passing by Woolworth’s, too, going to
and from.
Q. My question is, did you walk from the Parisiar
down to Woolworth’s?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. You said you were arrested in front of Wool-
worth’s Store, is that right?
A. It was somewhere between Woolworth’s there —
somewhere along about there.
Q. How many times have you been arrested?
A . Once.
Q. This is the only time that you were wearing
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766 .
(T. Easley - Cross)
an NAACP sweatshirt and carrying a flag, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. You remember all the details of how many people
were on the street and you are telling me you don't remember
where in the block the officer told you you were under arrest?
A. No, I don't know just exactly where — just
exactly where I was in front of.
Q. Now, was Stella Reed Herrington with you?
A. She was.
Q. Was Stella arrested?
A. Yes, she was.
Q. Do you know where Stella was arrested?
A. Well, we all was arrested at the same place, be
cause when they arrested the first one, the other kept walk
ing until — we all got arrested in the same spot.
MR. BELL:
Excuse me, Your Honor, we would like to enter an
objection to counsel referring to a housewife and mother by her
first name. I think in this Court, if no place else in the
area, persons who are mature and adult should be addressed by
a courtesy title.
MR. NICHOLS:
If it please the Court, there is no evidence be
fore this Court that she is a housewife, a mother, or an adult.
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THE COURT:
(T. Easley - Cross)
You people are not going to have a controversy
like that before me. I'm not going to tell counsel how to con
duct themselves other than to be courteous to a witness. All
right, go ahead, I'm trying a lawsuit, not a feeling.
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Was anyone —
THE COURT:
I understood she did say she is a housewife
though.
MR. NICHOLS:
I beg your pardon, Your Honor.
Q. Was anyone by the name of Benson arrested?
A. Yes, she was.
Q. And was she arrested in the same group with you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were all together at the time of the
arrest?
A. No, we was not together at -- yes, we was arrest
ed together, because Stella was walking and when they arrested
one, the others kept walking and they stood there until she got
there; then they arrested her.
Q. So the police just got at one point and let you
all pile up at one point?
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(T. Easley - Cross)
A. No, he didn't get at one point, because he come
behind me. He was walking — he walked down. He didn't just
get in one place and just stand.
Q. I see. I believe you are a member of the Cage
Chapel Baptist Church, are you not?
A. I is.
Q. Is it not true that the Cage Chapel Baptist
Church recently purchased an organ?
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to this line of questioning.
I don't think it has any purpose.
THE COURT:
Well, I can't ever tell what the purpose of cross'
examination is. That's the reason I have such wide latitude.
I have allowed both sides, I think, to go out of the pleading,
and I'll overrule your objection.
THE WITNESS:
Yeah, it's true that we do have.
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Is it not true that that organ was purchased
from a company by the name of Werlein's here in Jackson?
A. I don't really know what company it was purchased
from.
Q. You go to church, don't you?
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(T. Easley - Cross)
A . I do.
Q. Do you attend it regularly? Do you go every
Sunday?
A. No.
Q. Have you attended church since that organ was
purchased?
A. Yes.
Q. Don't you know of your own knowledge that the
organ has been returned?
A. It have been returned?
Q. Didn't you know that?
A. I sure didn't. The last time I was there, it was
in the church.
Q. When was the last time you were there?
A. I believe it was January.
Q. January. Now, you said that a boy gave you this
shirt that you were wearing?
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, that is not the testimony — that a
boy gave her the shirt.
THE COURT:
I didn't understand that either.
MR. NICHOLS:
All right, I'm sorry. I'll rephrase the question
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770 .
(T. Easley - Cross)
Q. Who gave you the shirt?
A. We went in a small room and got them ourselves
at the Masonic Temple.
Q. Where was this small room located?
A. I say at the Masonic Temple.
Q. Is that part of the NAACP headquarters there?
A. I don't know whether it is — it’s at the Masonic
Temple. I don’t know whether it’s their headquarters or what.
Q. Who told you to go in the small room and get the
shirt?
A. The lady that we signed up — we signed up and
went in the room and got the shirt.
Q. Who was the lady that signed them up?
A. I don’t know her name.
Q. Do you know who she worked for?
A. No, I don’t.
Q. Was she working for the NAACP?
A. She was sitting down when we got there, and we
went in and she signed our names up.
Q. What did you do — just go in and sign your name
and you didn’t ask any questions? What did you say when you
went in?
A. Yes, we told her we was going down to — we had
decided ourselves to go on Capitol Street that evening.
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(T. Easley - Cross)
Q. You were going to go on Capitol Street — what
did you intend to do on Capitol Street?
A. We intended to walk and hold our flags.
Q. Was this a protest of some type you were making?
A. Protest?
Q. Why were you walking and holding a flag?
A. Yes, we were protesting against racial —
Q. Racial what?
A. Protesting for freedom and things like that.
Q. Freedom and things like that. Did it have any
thing to do with encouraging other people not to buy merchan
dise on Capitol Street?
A. No.
Q. You just wanted freedom?
A. That’s right.
MR. NICHOLS:
No further questions, Your Honor.
MRS. MORRIS:
No further questions.
(Witness excused.)
ALFONSO LEWIS
After having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL:
7 7 2 .
(A. Lewis - Direct)
I would like for you to speak so that we can
hear you over here.
Q. State your name?
A. Alfonso Lewis.
Q. And your address?
A. 3005 Edwards Avenue.
Q. What is your age?
A. Seventeen.
Q. How long have you lived at your present address?
A. Approximately eleven years.
Q. And your present address is located in what city?
A. Jackson.
Q. What is your race?
A. Beg your pardon.
Q. What is your race?
A. Negro.
Q. Do you recall on June 11th, 1963, whether or not
you were arrested — strike that. Do you recall whether or not
on June 11, 1963, you participated in a racial protest?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you tell me where that protest occurred?
A. Capitol Street.
Q. Were you by yourself?
A. No, there was approximately nine or ten more.
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773 .
(A. Lewis - Direct)
Q. Were they Negro or white?
A. Negro.
Q. Can you tell me how you conducted that protest?
A. We left the Masonic Temple and we rode down to
Capitol Street and —
Q. Who is "we"?
A. It was approximately six in the car with me.
The others were in another car. The others arrived before we
did. They had — they were on the street when I arrived, me
and the rest of us, and after we got there, approximately five
was on one side of the street and five on the other.
We walked from twenty to thirty yards apart —
walked up the right side and come back down the left side of
Capitol Street.
Q. Approximately how many blocks did you encompass
in this circular walk?
A. I'm not sure, but I think it was one block?
Q. Were you carrying any signs or any other pro
test — any signs of protest?
A. No, we weren't carrying any signs. We were
wearing NAACP tee-shirts and we had signs on the back — on
our back.
Q. What was the nature of the signs printed on the
back?
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(A. Lewis - Direct)
A. They had — we had different signs. Some had
’’freedom now". Some had "Jim Crow must go", et cetera.
Q. Now, approximately how long did you continue
this walk?
A. Approximately from thirty to forty-five minutes.
Q. On what part of the sidewalk were you walking —
toward the building line or toward the curb line?
A. It was mostly in the middle. At times, we would
get closer to the buildings, if possible. We would look in
the windows as we were window shopping at times.
Q. Well, then is it correct that what you were doing
was strolling down Capitol Street and across, and to the other
side, is that correct, or were you marching?
A. We wasn’t exactly marching. We were more or less
strolling up and down Capitol Street.
Q. And how many of you were there?
A. Approximately ten.
Q. And you were about how far apart?
A. From twenty to thirty yards apart.
Q. Now, how long did you conduct this protest?
A. We walked about thirty or forty-five minutes.
Q. Now, what reaction, if any, did you get from
the — well, let me ask you this. Were there other persons
774 .
on the street at this time?
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(A. Lewis - Direct)
A. Yes, there were quite a few people. I mean, it
wasn't too crowded, but there was quite a few people downtown
at the time.
Q. Do you remember about what time that was?
A. This was between — in the evening between —
I'm not sure of the time, but I know it was between three-
thirty and five.
Q. Now, I ask you what, if any, response did you
notice from the passersby as you were conducting this protest?
A. The only response we received was that most of
them would stare at us, but there wasn't anything said or any
remarks made toward us. The only thing they would do was
stare at us.
Q. Do you remember whether there were any police
in the area in which you were conducting this protest?
A. Yes, there were quite a few police up and down
both sides of Capitol Street, approximately — I would say
every forty yards maybe, or less. Every forty yards or less
there were policemen on both sides of the street and on each
corner .
THE COURT:
What side of Capitol Street were you on?
THE WITNESS:
_____________________________________________ 775 .
Well, I walked up the right side first.
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776 .
(A. Lewis - Direct)
THE COURT:
Well, I mean were you on the north side of
Capitol Street or on the south side of Capitol Street?
THE WITNESS:
On the north side or the south side? Well, I
went up the
THE COURT:
north side and I came back down the south side.
THE WITNESS:
All right. In what block?
THE COURT:
Between Farish and — to the corner of Walgreen’:
THE WITNESS:
Lamar?
MR. BELL:
Lamar.
Q Now, what interference, if any, did the police
make with your protest effort?
A. For me — didn't anyone say anything to me or
do anything to me, but I did see one of the police officers
give one of the young men a jay-walking ticket,
Q. Why did he do that, if you know?
A. He say he was jay-walking, but from what I
could see — as you cross the street, the walk sign and the
don’t walk sign blink and they start — by the time he got
777 .
(A. Lewis - Direct)
half-way across, it started blinking on "don't walk", and the
policeman came out and gave him a jay-walking ticket.
Q. Now, did that happen on only one occasion or on
more than one occasion?
A. Well, I didn't see it but one — that's the only
time I saw it happen.
Q. And is it correct — do you know that the indi
vidual you are talking about began to cross the street when
the traffic signal flashed to walk?
A. The signal flashed to walk. He started across
the street and by the time he got about half-way, it started
blinking on "don't walk". It was blinking, and the policeman
came out and gave him a jay-walking ticket.
Q. Now, if you saw, did other individuals not a
part of your protest, begin to cross the street at the same
time?
A. Yes, there were maybe one or two persons cross
ing the street at that time, but didn't any of them receive
jay-walking tickets.
Q. Did you — have you engaged in any other racial
protests?
A. Yes, I was in two more. One was the 31st of
May — I marched from Brinkley High School, and the second
was _ on June the 12th, I marched on Lynch
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778 .
Street.
(A. Lewis - Direct)
Q. Now, what was your purpose in marching in both
of those instances?
A. Well, my reason for marching was to — this is
our way of protesting against segregation and discrimination
against the Negroes in Mississippi.
Q. That was your purpose?
A. That was my purpose.
Q. Now, what was your reason for engaging in the
protest you have just described on June 11th on Capitol Street?
A. This was the same reason, but it seems that we
couldn't get any publicity or any other way without marching
with signs on our back, and since Capitol Street was, I would
say approximately the busiest place in the city, we decided we
would walk on Capitol Street with these signs with "freedom"
on our backs, so that more people would know that we want our
freedom.
MR. BELL:
No further questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Then you were only on Capitol Street on one
occasion?
A. One occasion.
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779 .
(A. Lewis - Cross)
Q. And that was, I believe you said June 11th,
1963?
A. That's right.
Q. There were ten of you on that occasion?
A. Approximately ten. I'm not sure, but it was
approximately ten.
Q. And you had on shirts that had some slogans or
statements across the front o r back of them?
A. The back — in the front was NAACP.
Q. Well then, I take it the NAACP was sponsoring
whatever you all were doing?
A. You might say they were sponsoring it, but we di
it voluntarily.
Q. Well, you tell me whether or not they were
sponsoring it, if you would, please?
A. Yes, they were sponsoring it.
Q. All right. In what manner were they sponsor-
ing it?
A. In what manner?
Q. Yes. Were they paying for the tee-shirts?
A. The tee-shirts did belong to the NAACP.
Q. So they either gave or issued them to you?
A. That's right.
Q. And who was this at the NAACP who gave or issue<
780
(A. Lewis - Cross)
them to you?
A. P a rd o n ?
Q. And who was this at the NAACP that gave or issue|d
you these tee-shirts?
A. You mean the person?
Q. If you know?
A. At the time,there were a number of persons in
charge of the tee-shirts. I went up in the office and got my
tee-shirt. I'm not sure of the person who actually just hand
ed it to me, but there was a number of persons in charge of
the tee-shirts.
Q. Now, who put this printing or lettering or what'
ever it was on the back of the shirts?
A. Well, I don't know who put all of the writing
on there.
Q. Did you put any of it?
A. No.
Q. Could you tell the Court what you had on your
shirt?
A. "Freedom Now".
Q. And NAACP?
A. "Freedom Now" on the back and NAACP is engraved
on the front.
Q. Now, this was in connection with this boycott
781
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(A. Lewis - Cross)
of the stores on Capitol Street, was it not?
A. I would say that was part of our protest.
Q. All right. Were you a part of this boycott of
the stores on Capitol Street in the city of Jackson?
A. Am I a part of it?
Q. At that time, were you a part of it? Were you
taking part in the boycott?
A. If you mean was I buying on Capitol Street at
the time or was I refusing to buy on Capitol Street at the
time?
Q. I mean were you one of those persons that in
any way — attended mass meetings —
A. Yes, I attended mass meetings.
Q- or distributed literature and things like
that in Jackson?
A. Yes.
Q. And the NAACP and others had a large amount of
this boycott literature, had it not?
A. I didn’t get my literature from the NAACP
office.
Q. Where did you get it — at mass meetings?
A. No, I didn’t get it at mass meetings.
Q. Where did you get it?
A. Youth Council meetings.
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782 .
(A. Lewis - Cross)
Q. Youth Council of what?
A. Youth Council meetings is a branch of the NAACP
for youth.
Q. Are you a member of the North Jackson Youth?
A. That's right.
Q. And is that where you got yours?
A. That's where I got my leaflets.
Q. Well, they are an affiliate of the State or the
City of Jackson NAACP Chapter, are they not?
A. Yes.
Q. And you — what did you understand that the
boycott would be, this boycott in particular?
A. What did I understand it to be?
Q. Yes.
A. I would say selective buying.
Q. I hand you Exhibit D-4 for identification to
the witness Evers and ask you to examine that. You under
stand that’s a photostatic copy of one of these yellow — is
that the type or is that one of the pamphlets or leaflets
that you received at the NAACP Meeting?
A. Yes, this is.
Q. That is?
A. This is the type of information that was on the
leaflets.
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783 .
(A. Lewis - Cross)
Q. Have you ever seen that particular leaflet be
fore or one identical to it?
A. I'm not sure if it was identical, but it was
something like that.
Q. I hand you Exhibit D-3 for identification to
the witness Evers and ask you if you can identify that as the
type — identical type of literature you received in these
NAACP Youth Council meetings?
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I have an objection. I believe
that Defendant's Exhibit 4, you said, is a photostat of Defend
ant's Exhibit 3.
MR. TRAVIS:
No.
MRS. MORRIS:
THE COURT:
No. Who said it was a photostat.
All right, go ahead.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. This is a different leaflet here. I'm asking
you if that leaflet is similar or identical to leaflets that
were distributed by the NAACP's North Jackson Youth Chapter?
A. I would say yes.
Q. Now, did you yourself distribute this type of
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784 .
(A. Lewis - Cross)
leaflet through the City of Jackson?
A. Yes.
Q. And you know it to be widely distributed by the
NAACP, do you not?
A. I know I distributed quite a few.
THE COURT:
What was that other exhibit you asked him about
MR. TRAVIS:
The last one, Your Honor, was Exhibit D-3 for
identification to the witness Evers.
THE COURT:
What was the other one? I got the last one.
MR. TRAVIS:
The one before that, I believe, was Exhibit
D-4 to the witness Evers.
THE COURT:
All right, go ahead.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. I hand you now Exhibit D-2 for identification
to the deposition of King, and ask you if you can identify
that publication? Would you examine it closely? Excuse me,
I think there are several things there.
A. Are you asking if I have seen something like
this before?
785
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(A. Lewis - Cross)
Q. I'm asking you if you have seen that one?
A. This one — well, I can't say exactly this one.
I've seen something similar.
Q. Could you tell me what that is?
A. This is a North Jackson Council bulletin.
Q. And who is it published by?
A. The North Jackson Youth Council.
Q. Could you tell me whether or not this is a true
copy of the publication of the North Jackson Youth Council?
A. I can't say definitely now if it’s a true copy,
because I didn’t read this whole thing.
Q. All right. Let me ask you this. Were these
distributed?
A. Were they distributed as leaflets?
Q. Not leaflets — well, were they distributed as
leaflets?
A. They were not distributed as leaflets.
Q. Well, how were they distributed?
A. They were distributed in various ways. We
didn’t go from house to house or from door to door distribut
ing those bulletins. Those bulletins were given to those
persons who wanted them. If you wanted a bulletin from the
North Jackson Council, you were given one either by — some
one would bring it or either by mail.
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786 .
(A. Lewis - Cross)
Q. To anybody that wanted them?
A. If you wanted one, you could get one.
Q. And were they distributed at these mass meet
ings?
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to that. This is dated
November 30, 1962. I don’t think there is any testimony of
any meetings being held in 1962.
THE COURT:
Overruled.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Now, what was the disposition of this case in
Court — the Municipal Court of the City of Jackson?
A. The disposition of this case?
Q. Let's see — June 11, 1963.
MR. BELL:
Excuse me, Your Honor, I don’t think there is
any testimony that there was any arrests on June 11, as far as
I know.
THE COURT:
I don’t have any record of an arrest either.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Were you arrested when you said you were on
Capitol Street?
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787 .
(A. Lewis - Cross)
A, I was not arrested on June the 11th. I was not
arrested on Capitol Street. I was arrested on the corner of
Liberty Road and Ridgeway and Lynch Street.
Q. That’s another date?
A. That's right.
Q. So the police didn't arrest you or anything on
June the 11th when you were on Capitol Street?
A. That's right, I was not arrested.
Q. You were not arrested, and you walked up and
down the street, I believe you said for forty minutes?
A. Approximately forty-five minutes.
Q. About forty-five minutes, and there were lots
of policemen watching you all the time?
A. A lot of policemen watching me at all times.
Q. And they didn't permit anything to happen to
you or anything during that forty-five minutes, did they?
A. They didn't permit anything to happen to me.
Q. You walked peacefully down that street down
that street for forty-five minutes just like you wanted to,
didn't you?
A. That's right.
Q. And the other people with you did the same
thing?
A. That's right.
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788 .
(A. Lewis - Cross)
Q. And you were not arrested?
A. That's right.
Q. All right. Now, let's talk about the times —
or were you arrested on other occasions?
A. I was arrested on the thirty-first and the
twelfth.
Q. All right, let me ask you about the thirty-
first .
THE COURT:
Thirty-first of what?
THE WITNESS:
Thirty-first of May.
MR. TRAVIS:
Nineteen sixty-three.
Q. Now, you were arrested on that occasion where?
A. On the corner of Livingston Road and Ridgeway.
Q. And how many persons were arrested on that
occasion with you?
A. Approximately — about a hundred and twenty-
five or less.
Q. About a hundred and twenty-five of you were
arrested, and were you all together?
A. Yes, sir, we was together.
Q. And all out in the street?
(A. Lewis - Cross)
A. We were not in the street.
Q. Where were you?
A. We were on the side of the street.
Q. On the side of the street — but you were all
together?
A. We were walking in couples —
Q. In couples?
A. — on the side of the street.
Q. Now, have you been before the Municipal Court
of the city of Jackson on that case?
A. No.
Q. Have you been before the Youth Court on it?
A. I talked to the juvenile Judge about it.
Q. You had no trouble getting out -- you were re
leased?
A. The first time I was released, I wouldn't say
there was trouble.
Q. Well, you got out?
A. That's right, I got out.
Q. And you didn’t have to put up any bond or any
thing?
A. No bond.
Q. You were released?
A. I was released.
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(A. Lewis - Cross)
Q. And of course, this is the first time that we
are talking about, on the 31st of May, 1963?
A. That’s right.
Q. And on the second occasion, where was this that
you were arrested?
A. On Lynch Street.
Q. At Lynch Street and Poindexter?
A. That’s right.
Q. And how many persons were with you on this
occasion when you were arrested?
A. I ’m not sure, but it was quite a few. It was
more than it was the first time, but I'm not sure how many.
Q. Would it surprise you if I told you there were
a hundred and forty-six arrested on that occasion? Would you
think that would be about right?
A. I guess that would be about right.
Q. All right. Now, where did you all assemble
or get together for this parade?
A. We met at the Masonic Temple for this march.
Q. And who organized this march?
A. This march was organized by members — it
really was organized by members of the NAACP, but we marched
because we wanted to.
____________________________________________790 .
Q. I understand that. It was a voluntary
791 .
(A. Lewis - Cross)
proposition?
A. Voluntary.
Q. But who got you together?
A. Well, I don’t know who told the rest of them
to come, but I went out on my own.
Q. All right. Then where did you go — what
office in the Masonic Temple, who was sponsoring this thing at
the Masonic Temple?
A. What office?
Q. Yeah.
A. Well, I didn’t go up to the office that day.
I met in the auditorium.
Q. Who was sponsoring the meeting in the audito-
rium?
A. I wouldn’t say — I don’t know who exactly
sponsored it. I know who was there.
Q. Well, who was in charge of the meeting?
A. At the time — who was in charge of it?
Q. I'm not trying to confuse you. Let me just
ask you this. Was that an NAACP mass meeting?
A. No, it was not a mass meeting.
Q. Well, was it an NAACP meeting?
A. I wouldn’t say it was an NAACP meeting, because
there was more than NAACP members there. Everybody was not
792 •
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NAACP members.
(A. Lewis - Cross)
Q. Now, you were going to tell me who was in
charge of the meeting?
A. Who was in charge of the meeting — I’m not
sure who was in charge of the meeting, because I went to the
Temple because I wanted to, because I wanted to protest again,
and I suppose the rest of them came for the same reason.
Q. I understand that, but —
A. As far as a person being in charge of the
meeting or I say, over us — we organized ourselves.
Q. Who was presiding or conducting the meeting?
Let me put it that way.
A. One of the persons that was in charge was
Dennis, Mike Dennis — Dennis, I know,is his last name, and
Frazier.
Q. Who is Frazier?
A. John Frazier, I think.
Q. Who does he represent?
A. Who does he represent?
Q. Yes, if you know?
A. As far as I know, I think he is a member of
the NAACP.
Q. And what about the other one you mentioned?
What was his name?
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793 .
(A. Lewis - Cross)
A. Dennis.
Q. Who was he representing?
A. Who was he representing? Dennis, he's not —
I think he's a member of CORE.
Q. Now, you say these two, the NAACP representa
tive and the CORE representative were in charge. That's my
understanding, is that right?
A. You might could say they was in charge.
Q. What would you say?
A. What would I say?
Q. Right.
A. Well, I wouldn't exactly say they was in
charge. I mean, they gave us advice, I would say.
Q. Did they advise you then as to how to go about
this parade you were about to engage in?
A. They didn't tell us what to do. They told us
some things not to do.
Q. Did they tell you not to go into the streets?
A. No.
Q. Did they tell you to go into the street?
A. They didn't tell us to go in the street. We
went in the street on our own. That was our purpose for being
there .
Q. All right. Now, you are familiar with Lynch
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794 .
(A. Lewis - Cross)
Street, are you not?
A. I beg your pardon.
Q. You are familiar with Lynch Street, are you
not, at the Masonic Temple?
A. That’s right.
Q. And you know that Lynch Street is one of the
wider streets in the city of Jackson — it's a wide street?
A. That’s right.
Q. And you know also that that’s a heavily trav
eled street, do you not?
A. That’s right.
Q. Lynch Street also has wide sidewalks on both
sides, does it not?
A. It has sidewalks.
Q. Now, when you left the Masonic Temple, you
went into Lynch Street, did you not?
A. That's right.
Q. Into the street?
A. That’s right.
Q. All of you?
A. That’s right.
Q. And you then did what in the street?
A. We didn’t do anything but walk down the street
Q- And that, of course, blocked traffic, congeste
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795 .
(A. Lewis - Cross)
it?
A. It didn't congest it. The cars just stopped.
Q. Well, they had to stop — they had no other
choice?
A. That's right.
Q. And of course, somebody could have gotten hurt
or killed very easily if one of the cars had hit them, could
they not?
A. If they had been hit by a car.
Q. If they had — I mean, streets are used for
cars, not for people who want to take the streets over, is
that right?
A. That's right, but at the time we knowed this,
but this was our way of protesting.
MR. TRAVIS:
That's all.
MR. BELL:
Let me just ask one or two questions, Your
Honor.
BY MR. BELL:
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Q. Now, when you were arrested on May 31st, you
were walking — were you walking two by two at that time?
A. That's right, in couples.
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796
(A. Lewis - Redirect)
Q. And you indicated — on what part of the
street were you walking?
A. We were walking on the right side, on the side
of the street until we got ready to cross, and we were cross
ing two at a time. We were crossing Livingston Road going on
Ridgeway, and we were walking two at a time.
Q. As you walked along in that direction, were
you walking on the sidewalk at that time?
A. On Livingston Road, we was on the sidewalk.
We weren’t on the street.
Q. I see. Now, were there any sidewalks along
that direction you marched?
A. No.
Q. Now, on the 6th of June — I’m sorry, on the
12th of June, when you went into the — filed into the street,
did you file in two by two?
A. That’s right.
Q. Now, was traffic halted by your marching down
the street, in your opinion, or by the police coming into the
street blocking it?
A. The policemen blocked the street, too. At the
time we started on the street, there wasn’t a car coming. We
didn’t just walk out in front of a car, but as we come on out
in the street, the police started blocking the traffic then.
797 .
(A. Lewis - Redirect)
Q. So the blocking of traffic, if incurred by
you, happened at the same time it began to be blocked by the
police?
A. That's right.
MR. BELL:
No further questions.
THE COURT:
We will recess until 1:30.
(After a recess for lunch, the proceedings
resumed as follows:)
THE COURT:
All right, who do you have?
MR, BELL:
We call Doris Annette Erskine.
DORIS ANNETTE ERSKINE
After having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL:
Q. State your full name, please?
A. Doris Annette Erskine.
Q. Give us your address?
A. 524 West Pascagoula.
Q. Where is that located?
A. Out west in Jackson, Mississippi.
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798 .
(Erskine - Direct)
Q. How long have you lived in Jackson, Missis-
sippi?
A. All my life.
Q. What is your race?
A. Negro.
Q. And are you a plaintiff in this case?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Have you been arrested while participating in
protests against racial discrimination?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Would you tell us when this occurred?
A. The first one was on May 28th — sit-in at
Primos Restaurant in Jackson.
Q What happened?
A Well, we were arrested.
Q Who is "we”?
A Four of us, Thelma Slaughter, Shirley Apple-
white, Brenda Moman and myself.
Q How did you happen to go to Primos Restaurant?
A Well, we went down with a friend — we caught
a ride down with a friend.
Q. And where is Primos located?
A. On Capitol Street.
Q. Is Primos known for serving Negroes and
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799 .
(D. Erskine - Direct)
or what is the policy of this Primos Restaurant?
A. Well, Primos Restaurant is a segregated restau
rant, but there was a time when they did allow Negroes to come
in and be served. They could stand at the far end of the
counter and be served, but they couldn't sit down and eat.
Q. Now, what was your purpose in going down with
three or four others downtown to Primos?
A. Well, we went down to break the segregated bar
rier .
Q. How did you intend to do that?
A. By protesting — going in and asking to be served
Q. And what did you actually do when you got there?
A. When we got there — there were two doors, a
street door and the inside door, and a man was standing at the
door, at the street door. He opened the door for us and we
went in and got as far as the inside door and then we were
stopped by the owner.
Q. Stopped by who?
A. The owner.
Q. Carry on.
A. And then he asked us to leave, that we weren't
welcome, and we then told him we would like to have four Cokes,
and if we had that, then we would leave, and he still refused
to do so, so we just stood there. And then shortly, Captain
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800 .
(D. Erskine - Direct)
Ray came up and asked us to move out, and we did not obey his
orders, so he put us under arrest.
THE COURT:
I didn't understand what it was you said you
asked him that you wanted — what?
THE WITNESS:
Four Cokes.
THE COURT:
Cokes. All right.
MR. BELL:
Q. Now, when the owner asked you to leave and Cap
tain Ray asked you to leave, what was your reason for remain
ing where you were?
A. Well, we thought eventually that we might be
served if we stayed there and continued asking if we could go
in.
Q. Did you have any other reason to remain?
A. Yes. To break down the segregation barrier.
That’s why.
Q. Now, were you arrested at that time?1
A. Yes, we were.
Q. Were you taken to jail?
A. Yes, we were taken to jail.
Q. When were you released and how were you released,
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801 .
if you know?
(D. Erskine - Direct)
A. Well, we were released by bond.
Q. Do you remember the amount?
A. Yes, the bond was a thousand dollars.
Q. Were you tried subsequently in the city?
A. Yes, we were tried.
Q. And what fine, if any, did you get?
A. Five hundred dollars fine and four months.
Q. Now, how did you and the other people with you
get together and decide to go to Primos on May 28th?
A. Well, we were sick and tired of being discrimi
nated, and as a group we got together and said that we were
going to protest against this segregated city of Jackson, and
we wanted to be free, and we did it.
Q. Where did you meet before you started to the
downtown area?
A. We were at the Masonic Temple.
Q. Were you in any particular office in the Masonic
Temple?
A. No, we were not.
Q. Did you pick up — did you rendezvous at any
particular place at the Masonic Temple — did you meet at any
particular place at the Masonic Temple?
A. No, we were all just out in front inside of the
802 .
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(D. Erskine - Direct)
building in the auditorium part.
Q. Have you been arrested while participating in
any other protests of integration — segregation?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Would you tell us the facts about that?
A. Well, this was on Memorial Day, and as a result
of the rest of the demonstrators being picked up immediately
after getting out of their cars, and being harassed by the
policemen, we decided that we would pray and maybe get some
effect by praying and that's why we went to the Post Office.
Q. Why did you go to the Post Office for prayer
services?
A. Because that's a federal place and we had the
right and we had the opportunity. It was our privilege to go
in to pray.
Q. I ask you why did you go to the Post Office as
opposed to going to church?
A. Well, we wanted the public to know.
Q. Is — was there any part of the public you
particularly wanted to know this?
A. Yes, the white race.
Q. Is the Post Office located in the downtown sec
tion of town?
A. Yes, it is.
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803 .
(D. Erskine - Direct)
Q. About what time did you go to the Post Office?
A. Well, I don’t know the exact time. It was — I
couldn't say. I don't know.
Q. Were you arrested during this protest?
A. Yes, we were all arrested.
Q. Do you know what you were charged with?
A. Yes, breach of the peace.
Q. And were you released on bond in this case?
A. Yes, we were.
Q. Do you remember the amount?
A. Yes, a thousand dollars.
THE COURT:
What was that date? You said Memorial Day —
what was the date?
THE WITNESS:
That was the 30th.
THE COURT:
Thirtieth of what?
THE WITNESS:
Thirtieth of May.
MR. BELL:
Q. Now, going back to May 28th, when you went into
Primos Restaurant with the other persons with you, were there
policemen in the area at that time?
804 .
(D. Erskine - Direct)
A. Yes, there were.
Q. Were they there in large or small numbers?
A. They were in two’s.
Q. Would you be able to estimate how many policemen
were in the area?
A. No.
Q. Was it a large or a small number?
A. It was a large number.
Q. Do you remember what you were charged with when
you were arrested on that first day?
A. Trespassing.
MR. BELL:
No further questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Are you positive of the date you were arrested
at Primos Restaurant? /'
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Are you absolutely r,err’J,x-Ln it was not May 29th
rather than May 28th?
A. It w- May 28th*
I believe you said you are a native of Jackson?
A . Yes, I a m .
Q. Do you happen to know who owns the property
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805 •
(D. Erskine - Cross)
known as Primos Restaurant?
A. Mr. Primos. I don’t know his first name, that's
all I know.
Q. And there are several restaurants in town, are
there not?
A. Yes, there are.
Q. And where was this particular restaurant?
A. On Capitol Street down just below First National
Bank.
Q. Just below the First National Bank?
A. That's right, right there on the corner.
Q. That would be directly opposite the Post Office
Building, would it not?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, when you entered this property, you realize*
you were entering property owned by a private individual, did
you not?
A. I didn't know at the time — until I was told by
Captain Ray. The owner did not tell me that he was the owner.
I didn't even know that he was Mr. Primos. I didn't know that
Q. I think you misunderstood my question. You are
not responding to it. At the time you went through that door,
you realized that you were going on someone else's property,
did you not?
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806 .
(D . E r s k i n e - C r o s s )
A. Y e s , I knew t h a t .
Q. And yo u knew t h a t i t w a s n ’ t owned by t h e S t a t e
G o v e r n m e n t o r t h e F e d e r a l G o v e r n m e n t , d i d y o u n o t ?
A. No, I d i d n o t .
Q. You s a i d yo u knew Mr . P r i m o s r a n t h o s e r e s t a u
r a n t s ?
A. I d i d n ' t know u n t i l C a p t a i n Ray t o l d me.
Q. I s n ' t t h e r e a s i g n o v e r i t ?
A. I t s a y s " P r i m o s R e s t a u r a n t " . The " P r i m o s " d o e s n
n e c e s s a r i l y h a v e t o b e a m a n .
Q. So a s f a r a s y ou k n e w , y o u m i g h t h a v e b e e n g o i n g
o n p r o p e r t y j u s t l i k e t h e P o s t O f f i c e p r o p e r t y ?
A. T h a t ' s r i g h t .
Q. You f e l t y o u h a d a r i g h t t o g o i n ?
A. T h a t ' s r i g h t .
Q. Now, yo u s a i d o n d i r e c t e x a m i n a t i o n b y y o u r
a t t o r n e y , y o u w e r e s t o p p e d b y t h e o w n e r ?
A. T h a t ' s r i g h t . I t o l d h i m t h a t , b e c a u s e I d i d n ' t
know a t t h e t i m e h e w as t h e o w n e r , a n d u n t i l C a p t a i n Ray t o l d
me, a n d when C a p t a i n Ray t o l d me, t h a t ' s when I k new h e wa s
t h e o w n e r .
Q. Now, b e f o r e C a p t a i n Ray g o t t h e r e , w h a t d i d t h e
o w n e r s a y ?
A. He t o l d u s t h a t h e r e f u s e d t o s e r v e u s a n d t h a t
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807 .
(D. Erskine - Cross)
we would have to leave.
Q. Did you talk back to him or did you all discuss
the matter?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. What, if anything, did you say to him?
A. I just asked him if we could come in and be serv
ed, and he insisted that we would have to leave.
Q. And did you then again tell him you wanted to be
served?
A. Yes.
Q. And how many times did you insist upon service
at that restaurant?
A. I would say around three or four times.
Q. Three or four times — and did you get the same
answer each time to your insistence?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And did he ask you to leave the premises?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And you did not leave when he asked you?
A. No, we did not.
Q. Now, is it not true that he then called the
police?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it not true that the police did not come
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808 •
(D. Erskine - Cross)
until he called them?
A. Well, Captain Ray was on the verge of coming
in then.
Q. He may have been on the verge of coming in, but
he had not come in?
A. No, he had not come in.
Q. Now, in Captain Ray's presence, did this man ask
you to leave?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. At that point, before you were arrested, did
Captain Ray tell you who this man was?
A. No .
Q. He didn't tell you that this was the owner?
What did Captain Ray say to you?
A. He said "move out", "move on", you are under
arrest.
Q. Are you sure you did not talk to a police offi
cer with sergeant’s stripes on his shoulders?
A. I'm quite sure that it was Captain Ray.
Q. Are you sure you did not talk to a police ser-
geant Gillis?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did the man that talked to you wear glasses —
the police officer wear glasses?
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809 .
(D. Erskine - Cross)
A. No, I don’t think so.
Q. How long did you remain on the premises there?
A. No more than three or four minutes, maybe longer,
Q. Three or four minutes is long enough for you to
ask the man four times to let you be seated and be served, and
four times for him to answer no — that all occurred in four
minutes?
A. Yes, it did, because they were rushing us out.
Q. Now, was anyone else with you?
A. I beg your pardon.
Q. Was anyone else with you?
A. Yes, there were three others.
Q. Three — two parties and yourself?
A. Three parties and myself.
Q. That made four altogether?
A. That’s right.
Q. Who was the other three parties?
A. Thelma Slaughter, Shirley Applewhite, Brenda
Moman and Doris Erskine.
Q. Brenda who?
A . Brenda Moman.
THE COURT:
Are they all colored?
THE WITNESS:
810 .
1 (D. Erskine - Cross)
2 Yes, they are.
3 MR. NICHOLS:
4 Q. You four people had gone down with the express
5 purpose of going to Primos to do just what you did?
6 A. To be served.
7 Q. And I believe you stated to your counsel that
8 you knew you would not be served in advance, did you not?
9 A. That we knew that we weren’t going to be served?
10 Q. You said something about Primos having the repu
11 tation for not serving colored people?
12 A. That’s right, but we didn’t go down there with
13 the intention of not being served. We went with the intention
14 that we would be served.
15 Q. But you knew Mr. Primos' wishes as to serving
16 certain people and not serving certain people, did you not?
17 A. In a way, I did.
18 Q. I beg your pardon.
19 A. In a way, I did. In a way, I knew.
20 Q. Now, on your Memorial Day or May 30th arrest her
21 at the Post Office Building, I didn’t understand your answer
22 to your lawyer’s question as to why you came to the Post
23 Office to pray.
24 A. I said that since the demonstrations, we were
25 having so much harassment from the policemen and by the time
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811 .
(D. Erskine - Cross)
we would get out of the car, we would be arrested, and we were
praying on the Federal property because we wanted the public
to know that we were being refused of our rights and we wanted
them to know, and that’s why we were praying.
Q. Were you praying out loud?
A.
ministers.
Yes, we started praying out loud — one of the
Q. How loud were you speaking?
A.
us to hear.
THE COURT:
We were speaking loud enough for the mob around
THE WITNESS:
Were all of you praying?
No, all of us weren’t praying. We were praying
in silence while one of the ministers was praying out loud.
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. I'm sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you
yourself was praying out loud.
A.
out loud.
I was praying in silence. No, I wasn't praying
Q.
loud?
And who was the preacher that was praying out
A. I can’t recall his name.
Q. I understand there was only one praying out louo
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812 .
(D. Erskine - Cross)
at the time?
A. That’s right.
Q. Did more than one pray out loud?
A. It was two that prayed — started to pray. The
first one was a Negro man that started and then Reverend King
tried to take it up, and that’s when they arrested him and
pulled him off the steps.
Q. Now, with reference to the colored minister in
the prayer, do you recall any of his prayer?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall anything that the Reverend King
might have said in his prayer?
A. The only thing I can remember, he started say
ing "Oh, Lord", and by that time, we were going to the paddy
wagon.
Q. This was after the colored man had finished his
prayer?
A. That’s right.
Q. Now, this mob that had gathered around — your
intention was to let them hear the words of your prayer, is
that correct?
A. That’s right.
Q. Because otherwise, you would be just standing
there with your head down and unless someone knew you were
813 .
(D. Erskine - Cross)
praying, they wouldn't know what the purpose of it all was,
would they?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, how close was the mob on your people at the
time?
A. They were about three or four feet from us.
Q. Could you tell whether or not they were taking
kindly to your actions or whether or not they were —
A. No, they were laughing and talking loud and just
carrying on.
Q. They seemed to be displeased over your actions?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. And at any time during this prayer session, did
you feel that something might be about to happen?
A. Yes, we were being arrested.
Q, No, I mean as far as the mob was concerned.
A. No.
Q. Now, was it not your purpose to influence this
mob one way of the other?
A. We weren't trying to influence the mob to harm
us. We were trying to influence them and let them know that
we wanted these segregated barriers to be broke down. That's
all we were trying to do.
THE COURT:
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814 .
(D. Erskine - Cross)
Who were you praying to?
THE WITNESS:
We were praying to Almighty God.
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. I ’m sorry, I didn't hear your answer.
A. We were praying to Almighty God and to the pub
lic — the people that were standing around.
Q. And only two persons voiced their prayers so
that the bystanders in the mob might understand or hear some
conversation between this individual and his particular God,
is that correct? I mean, you were standing there with your
head in silent prayer.
A. That’s right.
Q. And there was no way to communicate that prayer
to the people you were trying to affect, was there?
A. I wasn’t praying out loud. Only one minister
prayed actually out loud and that was Reverend King, and the
colored minister, he started praying and he didn't finish.
Neither one of them finished their prayer.
Q. Did you possibly feel that at the time there
when the mob got close to you within two or three feet, that
a breach of the peace might happen — that somebody might
breach the peace?
A. No.
815 .
(D. Erskine - Cross)
Q. You didn’t feel that at all?
A. No.
Q. Now, when the officer arrested you, did he not
tell you to move on out of that area?
A. He told all of us to move on and move out, that
they didn’t want that there.
Q. And of course, you refused to do that?
A. No, we moved on.
Q. I beg your pardon.
A. We moved on.
Q. You moved on our of the area?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And he arrested you after you moved on?
A. We didn’t move on just the time he said it, but
when he said "move on", "move out", he started pushing us to
the paddy wagon, so what else was there for us to do but go
to the wagon. He moved us out.
Q. Did you hear him place you under arrest?
A. Yes, he said: "you are under arrest".
Q. Well, did he tell you to move on before he
placed you under arrest?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And you did not move on before he placed you
under arrest?
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(D. Erskine - Cross)
A. No.
Q. Now, at the time you were placed under arrest
and were being escorted to the police wagon there, did any
thing particular occur at that time?
A. Yes, everyone moved at the time, but Reverend
King and, of course, they pulled him down off the steps and
threw him in the paddy wagon.
Q. As a matter of fact, Reverend King sat down on
the steps and wouldn’t move at all, wasn't that what happened?
816 .
A. That’s right.
Q. And he forced the police officers to pick him
up and carry him bodily to the patrol wagon, is that right?
A.
THE COURT:
That’s right.
What color is Reverend King? What race does
he belong to?
THE WITNESS:
MR. NICHOLS:
He is of the white race.
Q. Now, on that day persons arrested there in-
eluded both members of the white and colored race, did they
not?
A. Yes.
Q. Is Reverend King your minister at your church?
817 .
(D. Erskine - Cross)
A. No, he's not.
Q. What church do you attend?
A. Pearl Street A. M. E. Methodist.
Q. Baptist Church?
A. Methodist.
Q. Methodist church, excuse me.
MR. NICHOLS:
If it please the Court, that's all.
THE COURT:
All right, anything further?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL:
Q. Now, as to your trip to Primos, Miss Erskine,
did you have of your own knowledge, the knowledge that on
other occasions persons who had gone and participated in
these sit-ins, had in fact, been served?
A. No, not in a sit-in.
Q. I refer not to sit-ins in Jackson, Mississippi,
but in other places in the country?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. How did you obtain this knowledge?
A. By television, newspapers and so forth.
MR. NICHOLS:
I object to that as hearsay, Your Honor.
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818 .
(D. Erskine - Redirect)
MR. BELL:
Your Honor, let me say again, hearsay is an
admission or an attempt to have admitted extra judicial
statements which are being offered to prove the truth of
those statements. Now, time and time again, we are going to
have this as we go through here.
THE COURT:
Well, let me see what your question was,please.
MR. BELL:
The question was whether she knew herself or
had the idea when she went down to Primos, that by present
ing herself for service at a place that had not previously
served Negroes, that she might have an opportunity to be
served, and she indicated that she did have this knowledge
in that she had learned it from television and other news
media, that it was possible for sit-inners to be served in
this fashion.
THE COURT:
I’ll let her answer. Go ahead.
MR. BELL:
I think she has already answered it.
Q. Now, would you tell the Court again why you
joined the others in coming to the Post Office for this
public prayer service, I guess on Memorial Day afternoon?
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819 .
(D. Erskine - Redirect)
A. Well, as I stated, we were tired and sick and
we are now, of being mistreated, being harassed by the police
and that’s why we went down there. We were tired and sick
of it.
Q. Well, did you have any particular reason why
you went to the Post Office to conduct this prayer service?
A. The Post Office is a very large place there,
and it’s a large platform and of course, the public goes to
and fro there — the people, you know, and it’s quite a bit
of traffic there and that's where the majority of the people
go, so why not go up there and let them hear you.
Q. So you indicated in answer to the Judge’s ques
tion, is this correct, that you were praying to God?
A. To God and the public.
Q. But is it correct or not correct that you
wanted the public to hear these prayers?
A. I wanted the public to hear it.
Q. Now, what time did you arrive at the Post
Office?
A. I don't remember the time.
Q. Was it a half hour or an hour earlier than the
time the protest began?
A. I don't know.
Q. I'm asking you — well, let me strike that.
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820 .
(D. Erskine - Redirect)
Q. What time did the protest begin, approximately*?
A. I don't know.
Q. Was it about five o'clock?
A. Maybe about that time, I don't know.
Q. All right. Assuming it was approximately five
o'clock, when did you yourself arrive at the Post Office?
A. It was in the evening.
Q. Was it about a half hour before that time?
MR. WATKINS:
May it please the Court, we object to counsel
leading her on.
THE COURT:
Yes, I sustain the objection, and I doubt that
this is proper rebuttal testimony, too.
MR. BELL:
Well, they had made the statement about the
crowd and everything, Your Honor, and I would like to go into
that just a little bit.
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. BELL:
Q. I'll ask you again, Miss Erskine, what time
did you physically reach the Post Office area?
A. I guess about five.
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(D. Erskine - Redirect)
Q. Approximately how long before the protest be
gan did you reach the Post Office area?
A. About fifteen minutes after that.
Q. Do you mean —
A. Fifteen minutes after five.
Q. Well, the protest was at what time?
A. I was in there until about five-thirty.
Q. Now, when you arrived at about five-fifteen,
what did you do?
A. We went inside of the Post Office Building,
and then we gathered.
Q. Now, just a second. You went inside the Post
Office Building?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, at the time you went inside the Post
Office, was there a large group of people gathered outside
of the Post Office?
A. Gathered outside and on the inside.
Q. Were these people who were engaged in Post
Office business or —
A. They were citizens. Some of them were citi
zens — I mean, they were people from the street, you know,
people passing through in town.
821 .
Q. In other words, the people who were in the
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822 .
(D. Erskine - Redirect)
Post Office and outside were people who were passing by in the
normal course of business?
A. Uh huh.
Q. Now, while you were inside the Post Office —
strike that. When you went inside the Post Office, did you
notice any policemen outside the Post Office?
A. Yes, there were some standing outside.
Q. Was there a large number or a small number?
A. There was a small number. They were in two’s
and three’s.
Q. Now, when you emerged from the Post Office at
approximately five-thirty for the purpose of the protest, was
there a larger number of policemen there?
A. There wasn’t a large number. There might have
been ten, but it wasn’t a large number.
Q. What were the policemen doing when you emerged
from the Post Office?
A. They were just standing out there.
Q. And when you emerged, were the large g r o u p
who were standing just watching, had they gathered at that
point or did they gather after you came out?
A. They had already gathered there.
Q. But you indicated when you entered the Post
Office at about five-fifteen, there was not a large group of
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(D. Erskine - Redirect)
people, they were merely standing about, is that correct?
A. I said that people were standing outside and
on the inside.
Q. Well, you indicated when you came out of the
Post Office.
MR. TRAVIS:
May it please the Court, I’m going to object
to that. He has gotten into cross-examination now far beyond
redirect.
THE COURT:
I think so. I sustain the objection.
MR. BELL:
Let me ask one more question on the Primos
matter.
Q. Back on the Primos protest — when you arrived
at Primos Restaurant, did you see Captain Ray there at that
time? Was he in the area?
A. Yes, he was there on the corner by the post,
right in front of Primos — not in front of it, but down the
street a little bit.
Q. Approximately how far away?
A. About five feet. He was in seeing distance.
Q. Now, you testified — I ’m going back to the
823 .
Post Office one more time — that when you came out for the
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8 2 4 .
(D. Erskine - Redirect)
prayer service, there was a large group of people who were
laughing and jeering and things of this nature, is that cor
rect?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you see the police arrest any of
these persons who were laughing and jeering?
A. No, I didn't .
Q. Did you see the policemen make any effort to
disperse this group of people that had gathered?
A. No .
MR. BELL: No f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s .
THE COURT: All right. Call your next witness.
MR. BELL:
Hezekiah Watkins.
HEZEKIAH WATKINS
After having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Would you state your name?
A. Hezekiah Watkins.
Q. You live in Jackson?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you lived here?
A. About fifteen years.
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( W a t k i n s - D i r e c t )
825 .
Q. A r e y ou a s t u d e n t ?
A. Y e s .
Q. Now i n t h e summer o f ’ 6 3 , i n J u n e , w e r e y o u p a r t i c i -
p a t i n g i n a n y a c t i v i t i e s ?
A. Yes I w a s .
Q. Do yo u r e c a l l t h e 1 4 t h o f J u n e ?
A. Y e s .
Q. Do you r e m e m b e r w h a t yo u w e r e d o i n g on t h a t d a t e ?
A. The 1 4 t h o f J u n e r was w a l k i n g on C a p i t o l S t r e e t w i t h
a f l a g .
Q. Was a n y o n e w i t h y o u ?
A. Y e s , two o f u s , i n c l u d i n g m y s e l f .
Q. How w e r e yo u w a l k i n g ?
A. W a l k i n g i n t w o ’ s .
Q. Two a b r e a s t ?
A. Y e s .
Q. Wh er e w e r e yo u w a l k i n g ?
A. On t h e r i g h t s i d e o f C a p i t o l g o i n g u p .
Q. I s t h e r e a n y p a r t i c u l a r s i g n i f i c a n c e t o J u n e 1 4 t h ?
A. Y e s , t h a t was f l a g d a y .
Q. How l o n g h a d y o u w a l k e d on C a p i t o l S t r e e t ?
A. r w o u l d s a y i t w a s n ’ t q u i t e a b l o c k . r c o u l d n ’ t
g i v e y o u t h e d i s t a n c e , b u t i t w a s n * t v e r y f a r .
Q. Wer e y o u a r r e s t e d ?
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( W a t k i n s - D i r e c t )
A. Y e s , we w e r e .
Q. Who a r r e s t e d y o u , do you r e m e m b e r ?
A. r d o n ’ t know t h e o f f i c e r ’s n a m e .
Q. Did t h e y a d v i s e y o u why yo u w e r e b e i n g a r r e s t e d ?
A. T h e y a s k e d me d i d T h a v e a p e r m i t t o m a r c h . I t o l d
t h e m r d i d n ’ t so h e s a i d T was u n d e r a r r e s t a n d r a s k e d h i m
w h a t c h a r g e a n d he s a i d ’’P a r a d i n g w i t h o u t a p e r m i t . ”
Q. D i d t h e p o l i c e p u t b o t h o f y ou u n d e r a r r e s t on t h e
826 .
same c h a r g e ?
A. Yes h e d i d .
Q. We re‘ you t a k e n t o j a i l f a c i l i t i e s ?
A. We w e r e t a k e n t o t h e f a i r g r o u n d .
Q. How l o n g w e r e yo u o u t t h e r e ?
A. I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r .
Q. You w e r e s u b s e q u e n t l y r e l e a s e d ?
A. P a r d o n ?
Q. You w e r e r e l e a s e d l a t e r ?
A. Y e s , we we r e .
THE COURT:
Q. How many w e r e w i t h y o u ?
A. Two.
Q. Two o t h e r s a n d you r s e l f ?
A. No, j u s t two o f u s t o g e t h e r . Me a n d a n o t h e r p e r s o n .
Q. Ajid y o u w e r e c a r r y i n g a f l a g ?
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827 .
( W a t k i n s - D i r e c t )
A. Y e s , s i r .
Q. And w h a t was t h e o t h e r p e r s o n c a r r y i n g ?
A. F l a g .
Q. What w e r e you d o i n g ?
A. We w e r e w a l k i n g .
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Now i n J u l y d i d yo u h a v e o c c a s i o n t o go t o B a t t l e
f i e l d P a r k ?
A. Y e s .
Q. I s B a t t l e f i e l d P a r k s e t a s i d e f o r n e g r o e s o r f o r w h i t e
p e r s o n s ?
A. T h e y s a y i t » s f o r w h i t e s .
Q. A r e yo u a n e g r o ?
A. Y e s , I am.
Q. T e l l me w h a t h a p p e n e d when y o u w e n t t o t h e p a r k .
MR. WATKINS:
I f i t p l e a s e t h e C o u r t , we a r e g o i n g t o o b j e c t t o
a n y i n c i d e n t w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o t h e P a r k a s n o t b e i n g w i t h i n t h e
l i m i t s o f t h i s l a w s u i t . I d o n * t know when he c l a i m s t o h a v e
b e e n t h e r e . He h a s n Tt s a i d w h e n .
MRS. MORRIS:
I f t h e C o u r t p l e a s e , t h i s i s n o t a s u i t t o d e s e g r e g a t e
t h e p a r k .
BY THE COURT:
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828 .
( W a t k i n s - D i r e c t )
T make t h e same r u l i n g . Go a h e a d . And r w i l l g i v e
y o u , Mr . W a t k i n s , a c o n t i n u i n g o b j e c t i o n on t h e same g r o u n d
i n e a c h i n c i d e n c e w h e r e a p a r k i s r e f e r r e d t o . I am a d m i t t i n g
t h e t e s t i m o n y o v e r y o u r o b j e c t i o n f o r t h e l i m i t e d p u r p o s e
p r e v i o u s l y i n d i c a t e d .
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. U n d e r w h a t c i r c u m s t a n c e s d i d yo u go t o t h e p a r k ?
A. I w e n t t o t h e p a r k , - t h e p a r k was s e g r e g a t e d a n d
I w e n t t o d e s e g r e g a t e i t .
Q. Who w e n t w i t h y o u ?
A. A b o u t a g r o u p o f t w e n t y .
Q. How l o n g w e r e y ou a t t h e p a r k ?
A. E w o u l d s a y a b o u t a h a l f an h o u r .
Q. Wha t w e r e y o u d o i n g ?
A. We w e r e p l a y i n g b a s k e t b a l l . r m e a n , a t l e a s t E w a s .
The o t h e r s yo u know w e r e p l a y i n g s o f t b a l l . r was p l a y i n g
b a s k e t b a l l m y s e l f .
Q. Wer e y o u a b l e t o c o n t i n u e y o u r game a s l o n g a s yo u
w a n t e d t o ?
A. No , we w e r e s t o p p e d b y C a p t a i n R a y .
Q. And w h a t h a p p e n e d ?
A. He a s k e d u s t o move on a nd move o u t , a n d so we d i d .
We moved o n , s t a r t e d b a c k , a t l e a s t E w o u l d s a y m y s e l f I s t a r t e d
b a c k h o m e . We w e r e w a l k i n g on D a l t o n -------
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( W a t k i n s - D i r e c t )
Q. How f a r i s t h a t f r o m t h e p a r k ?
829 .
A. A b o u t a b l o c k , maybe two b l o c k s f r o m t h e p a r k , you
g e t on D a l t o n .
BY THE COURT:
Q. What p a r k a r e yo u t a l k i n g a b o u t ?
A. B a t t l e f i e l d .
( C o n t i n u i n g ) So we w e r e w a l k i n g u p D a l t o n , we h a d
b e e n w a l k i n g f o r a b o u t f i f t e e n m i n u t e s a n d C a p t a i n Ray came
u p . He was i n a c a r , a n d s a i d we w e r e o b s t r u c t i n g t r a f f i c and
we w o u l d h a v e t o g e t o u t o f t h e s t r e e t a n d g e t s o m e w h e r e - I
c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h a t h e s a i d . I do r e m e m b e r he s a i d we w o u l d
h a v e t o g e t o u t o f t h e s t r e e t t h o u g h .
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. I s t h e r e a n y s i d e w a l k i n t h i s a r e a ?
A. No t h e r e i s n o t .
Q. Wh er e w e r e y o u w a l k i n g ?
A. We w e r e w a l k i n g on t h e l e f t h a n d s i d e .
Q. You w e r e t o t h e s i d e .
A. Y e s , we w e r e t r y i n g t o g e t a s f a r o f f t h e s t r e e t a s
we c o u l d . T h e r e w a s n ’ t a n y t r a f f i c c o m i n g a t t h e t i m e . So he
l e f t a n d came b a c k a b o u t f i f t e e n m i n u t e s l a t e r .
Q. Wh er e w e r e y o u now?
A. We w e r e u p a b o u t F l o r e n c e . F l o r e n c e r u n s i n t o
D a l t o n
830 .
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( W a t k i n s - D i r e c t )
Q. Up b y w h e r e ?
A. F l o r e n c e - F l o r e n c e A v e n u e I t h i n k i t i s .
Q. How f a r was t h a t f r o m t h e l a s t p l a c e h e came u p ?
A. W e l l , I am n o t f a m i l i a r w i t h t h a t a r e a o u t t h e r e b u t
h o w s o e v e r i t was a b o u t two b l o c k s I w o u l d s a y .
Q. What h a p p e n e d h e r e ?
A. So h e came b a c k and s a i d we w e r e u n d e r a r r e s t and so
one p e r s o n a s k e d h i m u n d e r w h a t c h a r g e s a nd h e s a i d we was
o b s t r u c t i n g t r a f f i c . So he p l a c e d u s u n d e r a r r e s t a n d b r o u g h t
u s down t o t h e f a i r g r o u n d s .
Q. How l o n g w e r e yo u t h e r e , do y o u r e m e m b e r ?
A. No , I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r .
Q. D i d yo u v i s i t a n y o t h e r p a r k s d u r i n g t h e s ummer?
A. Y e s , I a l s o w e n t t o R i v e r s i d e .
Q. When was t h i s ?
A. T h a t was on t h e 1 8 t h o f J u n e o r J u l y , I am n o t s u r e .
MR. WATKINS:
May I h a v e t h e same o b j e c t i o n , Y o u r H o n o r ?
BY THE COURT:
Y e s , s ame r u l i n g .
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. And d i d y o u go w i t h a g r o u p ?
A. Y e s .
25 Q. How l o n g w e r e y o u i n t h e p a r k ?
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831 .
( W a t k i n s - D i r e c t )
A. We was i n t h a t p a r k I w o u l d s a y a b o u t h a l f an h o u r .
Q. What w e r e y ou d o i n g ?
A. W e l l when we w e n t t o t h i s p a r k we c o u l d n Tt f i n d a n y
k i n d o f s p o r t s t o p l a y o r a n y t h i n g . We d i d n * t h a v e a b a s k e t
b a l l o r s o f t b a l l o r a n y t h i n g l i k e t h a t . B u t we f o u n d some
s w i n g s i n t h e p a r k so we d e c i d e d t o u s e t h e m . So we d i d . We
w e r e u s i n g t h e m and so a b o u t 15 m i n u t e s l a t e r o r h a l f an h o u r
l a t e r , I Tm n o t s u r e o f t h e t i m e , a p o l i c e m a n came up and s a i d
we w o u l d h a v e t o move on and move o u t , b u t we d i d n Tt . We s t a y e d
t h e r e . So h e w e n t b a c k t o h i s c a r and I g u e s s he c a l l e d h e a d
q u a r t e r s o r s o m e w h e r e , and a b o u t f i f t e e n m i n u t e s l a t e r a p a d d y
wagon came and so h e p u t u s i n t h a t a nd b r o u g h t u s t o t h e C i t y
j a i l .
Q. Do y o u know how l o n g yo u w e r e t h e r e on t h a t o c c a s i o n ?
A. C i t y j a i l - I was t h e r e a b o u t e i g h t e e n d a y s , maybe
l e s s o r m o r e , I am n o t s u r e .
Q. Now on May 3 1 s t y o u w e r e i n a g r o u p on F a r i s h S t r e e t ?
A. Yes I w a s . T h a t was when o ne a f t e r n o o n a f t e r s c h o o l ,
w e l l I was h e a d e d f o r w o r k . When I go t o w o r k I a l w a y s come
down F a r i s h . H o w s o e v e r t h e r e was a g r o u p o f k i d s g a t h e r e d a t
F a r i s h S t r e e t B a p t i s t C h u r c h . I p a s s t h a t way e v e r y t i m e I go
t o w o r k , so I p e e p e d i n t o s e e w h a t was g o i n g o n . So t h e y was
s i n g i n g a nd p r a y i n g a nd g o i n g o n , so I w e n t i n t o s e e w h a t was
g o i n g o n . One f e l l o w s a i d l,We a r e g o i n g t o m a r c h on C a p i t o l
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832 .
( W a t k i n s - D i r e c t )
S t r e e t " and e v e r y b o d y s t a r t e d h o l l e r i n g " y e a h " .
Q. Do yo u know who t h a t w a s ?
A. I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r t h e p e r s o n ’ s n a m e . So I w e n t i n t o
s e e w h a t was g o i n g o n . So a f t e r I d i d l e a r n w h a t was g o i n g on
I s t a y e d . I d e c i d e d m y s e l f t h a t I s h o u l d t a k e p a r t i n i t b e
c a u s e my p e o p l e w e r e d o i n g i t and a n y t h i n g t h e y a r e d o i n g I
t h i n k t h a t I s h o u l d b e a p a r t o f . So I t o o k p a r t i n t h a t
d e m o n s t r a t i o n . We w e n t down F a r i s h .
Q. Wh er e w e r e y o u w a l k i n g ?
A. On F a r i s h , on t h e s i d e w a l k .
Q. How many t o g e t h e r o r a c r o s s - two b y t w o , one b y o n e ?
A. We w e r e i n t w o ’ s - two a b r e a s t . And we w e r e w a l k i n g
down F a r i s h w i t h f l a g s i n o u r h a n d s . We was h e a d e d t o C a p i t o l
a l t h o u g h we d i d n ’ t g e t t h e r e .
Q. Wer e a n y p o l i c e i n t h e a r e a ?
A. At t h e t i m e I d i d n ’ t s e e a p o l i c e m a n .
Q. Did y o u s e e t h e m when y o u g o t t o t h e c o r n e r ?
A. Yes r d i d .
Q. W h e r e w e r e t h e y ?
A. T h e y h a d F a r i s h S t r e e t b l o c k e d . T h e y a l s o h a d
H a m i l t o n b l o c k e d .
Q. Do y o u h a v e a n y i d e a how many p o l i c e m e n w e r e i n t h e
a r e a ?
A. F t was so m a n y . I t m i g h t h a v e b e e n one h u n d r e d o r
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( W a t k i n s - D i r e c t )
two h u n d r e d , who k n o w s . I know i t was a b u n c h o f t h e m .
833 .
Q. B u t t h e y h a d t h e s t r e e t b l o c k e d o f f ?
A. Ye s , t h e y d i d .
Q. Did t h e y s t o p t h em?
A. Ye s .
Q. Do yo u r e m e m b e r a n y c o n v e r s a t i o n ?
A. No.
Q. We r e you p l a c e d u n d e r a r r e s t ?
A. Ye s , we w e r e .
Q. Do yo u kn ow w i t h w h a t yo u w e r e c h a r g e d ?
A. P a r a d i n g w i t h o u t a p e r m i t .
Q. Were yo u t a k e n t o j a i l ?
A. No, I was t a k e n t o t h e f a i r g r o u n d s .
Q. How l o n g w e r e yo u o u t t h e r e ?
A. I s t a y e d t h e r e t h r e e d a y s .
BY THE COURT:
Q. What was t h e d a t e o f y o u r a r r e s t on t h a t o c c a s i o n ?
A. May 3 1 s t .
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. N ow y o u w e r e w i t h t h e g r o u p t h a t p a r a d e d i n p r o t e s t
on J u n e 1 2 t h , w e r e y o u n o t ?
A. Y e s .
Q. The g r o u p i n t h e p a r k on b o t h o c c a s i o n s , w e r e t h e y
a s o r d e r l y a s a n y g r o u p i n t h e p a r k c o u l d b e , o t h e r t h a n t h e
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834 .
( W a t k i n s - D i r e c t )
f a c t t h a t t h e y w e r e u s i n g t h e f a c i l i t i e s a nd p l a y i n g g a m e s ?
A. Y e s , t h e y w e r e l i k e a n y o n e e l s e w o u l d b e , y ou know,
p l a y i n g b a s k e t b a l l you know yo u w i l l h o l l e r , t h r o w me t h e b a l l ,
h e ’ s o u t , yo u d i d n ’ t make a p o i n t , o r s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t .
Q. Were a n y c r o w d s a r o u n d a t e i t h e r t i m e ?
A. A t R i v e r s i d e P a r k t h e r e w e r e two w h i t e s . Th e y w e r e
s i t t i n g a t t h e t a b l e e a t i n g d i n n e r I g u e s s .
Q. D i d t h e y c o n t i n u e e a t i n g d i n n e r w h i l e y o u w e r e t h e r e ?
A. Y e s .
Q. And t h e r e was no g r o u p i n t h e o t h e r p a r k o r a n y o n
l o o k e r s ?
A. No, n o t t h a t I c a n r e m e m b e r .
Q. A r e y o u a n e g r o ?
A, Y e s , I am.
MRS. MORRIS:
T h a t ’ s a l l .
BY THE COURT:
Q. You s a i d y o u a r e a s t u d e n t . What s c h o o l do you
a t t e n d ?
A. L a n i e r J u n i o r - S e n i o r H i g h .
Q. Wha t g r a d e a r e yo u i n ?
A. I am a j u n i o r .
Q. T h a t m e a n s y o u a r e i n t h e e l e v e n t h g r a d e ?
A. E l e v e n t h g r a d e .
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835 .
( W a t k i n s - C r o s s )
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. TRAVIS:
Q. How o l d a r e y o u ?
A. S e v e n t e e n .
Q. S e v e n t e e n ?
A. R i g h t .
Q. I t a k e i t t h e n y o u h a v e b e e n a r r e s t e d f i v e t i m e s , o r
i s i t s i x t i m e s ?
A. I was a r r e s t e d f i v e t i m e s i n * 6 3 .
Q. F i v e t i m e s i n ’ 6 3 .
A. I was a r r e s t e d o n c e i n ’ 6 1 .
Q. What was t h e o t h e r d a t e i n ’ 63 y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d o n ,
- May 3 1 , ’ 6 3 , J u n e 7 , ’ 6 3 , J u n e 14 ’ 6 3 , J u l y 18 ’ 6 3 .
A. I d i d n ’ t s a y I was a r r e s t e d on J u n e 7 ’ 6 3 .
Q. Wer e y o u a r r e s t e d on J u n e 7?
A. No , I was n o t .
Q. When was i t y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d on D a l t o n S t r e e t ?
A. On D a l t o n , t h a t was J u l y 2 4 t h .
Q. J u l y 2 4 t h - a r e y o u s u r e o f t h a t ?
A. I c a n ’ t be s u r e , b u t —
Q. Who was y o u r a t t o r n e y i n t h a t c a s e i n C i t y C o u r t ?
A. I h a v e n ’ t b e e n t r i e d f o r t h a t c a s e . At l e a s t 1
h a v e b e e n t r i e d f o r a b o u t o n e . T was t r i e d i n j u v e n i l e
c o u r t
836 .
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( W a t k i n s - C r o s s )
Q. Who was y o u r a t t o r n e y ?
A. I d i d n ’ t h a v e an a t t o r n e y .
Q. Who p u t u p t h e money f o r y o u r b a i l ? You g o t o u t a l l
r i g h t , d i d n ’ t y o u ?
A. Y e s , I g o t o u t .
Q. And who p u t u p t h e b a i l m o n e y ? D i d y o u p u t i t u p ?
A. No , I d i d n ’ t .
Q. You s a y i t was p u t up f o r y o u ?
A. I t was p u t u p .
Q. By whom?
A. r d o n ’ t know.
Q. Now t h e o n l y t i m e y o u w e r e c h a r g e d w i t h o b s t r u c t i n g
t h e s t r e e t was t h i s D a l t o n S t r e e t t h i n g ?
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. C o u l d you t e l l t h e c o u r t w h e t h e r o r n o t yo u p a i d a
f i n e on t h a t c a s e when t h e c a s e was f i n a l l y d i s p o s e d o f a r o u n d
S e p t e m b e r 3 0 , 1 9 6 3 ?
A. S e p t e m b e r 3 0 t h , - I w a s n ’ t a r r e s t e d on S e p t e m b e r 3 0 t h .
Q. I know y o u w e r e n ’ t a r r e s t e d on t h a t d a t e , b u t I am
a s k i n g y o u t o t e l l t h e C o u r t w h e t h e r o r n o t on t h e c h a r g e
a g a i n s t y o u o f o b s t r u c t i n g t h e s t r e e t w h e t h e r o r n o t y o u p a i d
a f i n e on t h a t c a s e on o r a b o u t S e p t e m b e r 3 0 , 1 9 6 3 , when y o u r
c a s e was f i n a l l y d i s p o s e d o f i n c o u n t y c o u r t .
A. I c o u l d n ’ t e x a c t l y s a y I p a i d a f i n e . A l l L know t h e y
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837 .
( W a t k i n s - C r o s s )
o p e n e d t h e d o o r s a n d I was o u t . I d o n ’ t know w h e t h e r t h e y p a i d
a f i n e o r n o t , o r who p a i d t h e f i n e .
Q. D i d s o m e b o d y h a v e a u t h o r i t y t o p o s t b o n d f o r you and
p a y y o u r f i n e and t h i n g s l i k e t h a t ?
A. I c o u l d n ’ t e x a c t l y s a y . A l l I know I was o u t . I
d o n ’ t know who p a i d o r n o t .
Q. Who made t h e a r r a n g e m e n t s t o g e t you o u t ?
A. I d o n ’ t know. I was t h e r e .
Q. You d o n ’ t know who g o t yo u o u t ?
A. No, I d o n ’ t .
Q. You d o n ’ t know how t h e y g o t y o u o u t e i t h e r ?
A. No, I d o n ’ t .
Q. You s a i d y o u p a r t i c i p a t e d i n t h i s p a r a d e f o r M e d g e r
E v e r s . D i d y o u p a r t i c i p a t e i n t h e r i o t t h a t f o l l o w e d ?
MR. BELL:
We o b j e c t t o t h a t Y o u r H o n o r .
BY THE COURT:
L e t me h e a r y o u r q u e s t i o n a g a i n .
MR. TRAVIS:
I a s k e d h i m - l e t me r e p h r a s e t h e q u e s t i o n a n d maybe
T c a n g e t t h e o b j e c t i o n o u t o f i t .
Q. D i d y o u p a r t i c i p a t e i n a n y a c t i v i t i e s on t h e 1 2 t h o f
A. Y e s , I d i d .
J u n e ?
838 .
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( W a t k i n s ~ C r o s s )
Q. Were y o u a r r e s t e d on t h a t o c c a s i o n ?
A. Y e s , I w a s .
Q. What h a p p e n e d on t h a t d a t e ?
A. W e l l , t h a t d a y -----
Q. IT am s p e a k i n g o f i m m e d i a t e l y b e f o r e you w e r e a r r e s t e d ,
w h a t h a p p e n e d ?
A. We w e r e w a l k i n g on L y n c h .
Q. How many o f y o u w e r e w a l k i n g ?
A. r d o n ’ t know. I w o u l d s a y two h u n d r e d , maybe m o r e ,
I d o n ’ t know.
Q. Two h u n d r e d , maybe m o r e , a nd y ou w e r e i n t h e s t r e e t ?
A. Y e s .
Q. S i d e w a l k s on b o t h s i d e s b u t y o u w e r e i n t h e s t r e e t ?
A. Y e s .
Q. Who h a d y o u i n t h e s t r e e t ? Who was l e a d i n g y o u i n
t h e s t r e e t ?
A. I w o u l d s a y I was l e a d i n g m y s e l f .
Q. A l l r i g h t . Who was l e a d i n g t h e o t h e r two h u n d r e d ?
A. I d o n ’ t know.
Q. You a l l w e r e a l l t o g e t h e r , w e r e n ’ t y o u ?
A. We w e r e a l l t o g e t h e r .
Q. Who p u t y o u t o g e t h e r ?
A. Wha t y o u m e a n , p u t u s t o g e t h e r ?
Q. How d i d y o u g e t t o g e t h e r ?
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839 .
A.
w i t h i t .
a b o u t i t
s e e w h a t
Q.
g o i n g o n?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
o n?
A.
T e m p l e .
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
w h a t was
( W a t k i n s - C r o s s )
I w i l l t e l l you l i k e t h i s , how I came f a m i l i a r a t e d
A f t e r M e d g e r ’ s d e a t h t h a t n i g h t , a t l e a s t I h e a r d
t h e n e x t m o r n i n g , a nd I w e n t down t o M a s o n i c T e m p l e t o
was g o i n g o n .
Why d i d yo u go t o t h e M a s o n i c T e m p l e t o s e e w h a t was
W e l l t h e y h a d m o s t o f t h e m e e t i n g s t h e r e .
Wha t m e e t i n g s t h e r e ?
Mass m e e t i n g s .
And who s p o n s o r e d t h e s e m a s s m e e t i n g s ?
I g u e s s t h e NAACP.
So y o u w e n t t o t h e NAACP t o f i n d o u t w h a t was g o i n g
I d i d n ’ t go t o t h e NAACP. T w e n t t o t h e M a s o n i c
T h a t ’ s w h e r e t h e NAACP i s l o c a t e d , i s n t t i t ?
T h a t 5 s r i g h t .
And y o u a r e n o t a m a so n a r e y o u ?
N o .
You b e l o n g t o t h e NAACP?
Y e s .
I t a k e i t t h e n y ou w e r e g o i n g t o t h e NAACP t o f i n d o u t
g o i n g o n . T h e i r o f f i c e i s i n t h e M a s o n i c b u i l d i n g ,
i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
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840 .
A. Y e s ,, t h e i r o f f i c e i s i n
Q. Did y o u go t h e r e on t h e
t h e s e p e o p l e ?
A. L i k e I
was g o i n g o n ,
w h a t .
( W a t k i n s - C r o s s )
t h e M a s o n i c b u i l d i n g .
1 2 t h t o g e t t o g e t h e r w i t h
s e e w h a t
m a r c h o r
s a i d , I w e n t t o t h e M a s o n i c T e m p l e t o
t o s e e w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o h a v e a
Q. T h e y d i d h a v e a m a r c h , d i d n ’ t t h e y ?
A. Y e s .
Q. And y o u a l l l e f t f r o m t h e NAACP o f f i c e o u t t h e r e a t
t h e M a s o n i c T e m p l e ?
A. Y e s .
Q. And w e n t i n t o t h e s t r e e t , t o o k t h e s t r e e t o v e r , i s
t h a t r i g h t ?
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. You t o o k L y n c h S t r e e t o v e r , - w i t h s i d e w a l k s on b o t h
s i d e s y o u e l e c t e d t o t a k e t h e m i d d l e o f t h e s t r e e t o v e r , two
h u n d r e d o f y o u .
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. And y o u d i d t a k e i t o v e r ?
A. T h a t Ts r i g h t .
Q. Auid y o u w e n t down L y n c h S t r e e t d i d n ’ t y o u ?
A. Y e s .
Q. D i d a n y o f y o u h a v e b o t t l e s a n d b r i c k b a t s a nd t h i n g s
l i k e t h a t ?
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8 4 1 .
( W a t k i n s - C r o s s )
A. I c a n s p e a k f o r m y s e l f , I d i d n ’ t .
Q. I am a s k i n g you i f y o u saw a n y b o d y ?
A. No, I d i d n ’ t .
Q. Or i f you h ad a n y ?
A. No .
Q. Was t h e r e a n y b r i c k t h r o w i n g , b o t t l e t h r o w i n g , f r o m
t h e p e o p l e yo u w e r e w i t h ?
A. I c o u l d n ’ t s a y b e c a u s e i f t h e y d i d I d i d n ’ t s e e i t .
Q. You a r e n o t s a y i n g t h o u g h t h a t t h o s e p e o p l e w i t h yo u
d i d n ’ t t h r o w b o t t l e s a nd b r i c k s a n d t h i n g s l i k e t h a t a t p o l i c e
men o r o t h e r p e o p l e on t h e s t r e e t ?
A. H e r e ’ s w h a t I ’ m s a y i n g , I ’ m s a y i n g i f t h e y d i d t h r o w
b o t t l e s o r b r i c k s I d i d n ’ t s e e t h e m ; t h a t I d i d n o t t h r o w a
b o t t l e o r a b r i c k .
BY THE COURT;
Q. Y o u ’ v e g o t p r e t t y g o o d e y e s i g h t , h a v e n ’ t y o u ?
A. Y e s , s i r .
Q. I f t h e y h a d b e e n t h r o w i n g a n y b o t t l e s o r b r i c k s
a r o u n d t h e r e y o u d o n ’ t t h i n k y o u c o u l d h a v e s e e n i t ?
A. Yes I c o u l d h a v e .
MRS. MORRIS:
I t h i n k y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t d i f f e r e n t d a t e s . The
w i t n e s s i s t a l k i n g a b o u t J u n e 1 2 t h , a r e n ’ t y o u ? You a r e t a l k i r g
a b o u t J u n e 1 5 t h .
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842 .
( W a t k i n s - C r o s s )
BY THE COURT:
A l l r i g h t , I w i l l l e t y o u s t r a i g h t e n h i m o u t . Go
a h e a d .
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. So yo u a p p r o a c h e d t h e l i n e o f p o l i c e a b o u t f i v e o r
s i x b l o c k s down t h e s t r e e t ?
A. T h a t T s r i g h t .
Q. And y o u a l l h a d b e e n o u t i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h e s t r e e t
a n d h a d t a k e n i t o v e r f o r f i v e o r s i x b l o c k s ?
A. T h a t T s r i g h t .
Q. And y o u a r r i v e d a t t h e p o l i c e l i n e a t L y n c h and
P o i n d e x t e r , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
A. I am n o t s u r e w h e t h e r i t was L y n c h and P o i n d e x t e r .
I know i t was on L y n c h .
Q. W e l l , t h a t w o u l d b e a p p r o x i m a t e l y r i g h t i n a n y e v e n t ,
w o u l d n ’ t i t ? B u t y o u d i d come a c r o s s a l i n e o f p o l i c e m e n a c r o s s
t h e s t r e e t ?
A. Y e s , I d i d .
Q. The s t r e e t w h i c h y o u r g r o u p h a d t a k e n o v e r ?
A. Y e s , I d i d .
Q. What h a p p e n e d when y o u a p p r o a c h e d t h i s p o l i c e l i n e ?
A. W e l l , I c o u l d n T t e x a c t l y s a y b e c a u s e I w a s n ’ t a t t h e
b e g i n n i n g o f t h e l i n e b u t a s f a r a s I c o u l d s e e u p i n f r o n t o f
me t h e y w e r e p u t t i n g e v e r y o n e i n a g a r b a g e t r u c k .
843 .
( W a t k i n s - C r o s s )
Q. D i d yo u h e a r a n y b o d y o u t t h e r e , a p o l i c e o f f i c e r w i t h
a l o u d s p e a k e r o r b u l l h o r n ?
A. Y e s , I d i d .
Q. I s n ’ t i t a f a c t t h a t t h i s p o l i c e o f f i c e r a s k e d i f
a n y o n e i n t h e c r o w d , y o u r g r o u p , h a d a p e r m i t t o p a r a d e and
u s e t h e s t r e e t s i n t h e m a n n e r t h a t y o u w e r e u s i n g t h e m ?
A. T f t h e y s a i d t h a t I n e v e r h e a r d i t .
Q. You a r e n o t s a y i n g t h a t h e d i d n ’ t s a y i t ?
A. No , I ’ m n o t .
Q. What d i d y o u h e a r h i m a s k ? D i d y o u h e a r h i m a s k
t h r o u g h h i s b u l l h o r n t o d i s p e r s e and move o u t o f t h e s t r e e t
and move on t h e s i d e w a l k ?
A. Y e s , I h e a r d t h a t . He s a i d i t s e v e r a l t i m e s .
Q. He s a i d s e v e r a l t i m e s , d i s p e r s e , move o u t o f t h e
s t r e e t , a n d move on t h e s i d e w a l k , a nd y o u h e a r d t h a t s e v e r a l
t i m e s ?
A. Y e s .
Q. You knew t h a t t h e s i d e w a l k s w e r e n o r m a l l y u s e d b y
p e d e s t r i a n s , p e o p l e who d e s i r e d t o w a l k ?
A. Y e s .
Q. And y o u knew t h a t L y n c h S t r e e t was a h e a v i l y t r a v e l e d
t h o r o u g h f a r e o f t h e C i t y o f J a c k s o n , d i d n ’ t y o u ?
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. Us e d f o r v e h i c l e s , a u t o m o b i l e t r a f f i c ?
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844 .
( W a t k i n s - C r o s s )
A. Y e s .
Q. I t ' s n o t u s e d f o r f o o t t r a f f i c ?
A. Y e s , b u t a t t h e t i m e we was i n t h e s t r e e t m a r c h i n g
t h e r e w a s n ’ t a n y t r a f f i c c o m i n g u p L y n c h . I f i t was a n y c o m i n g
down L y n c h 1 d i d n ’ t s e e i t , b e c a u s e C a p t a i n Ray and t h e p o l i c e
men h a d t h e s t r e e t b l o c k e d way b a c k down t h e r e . Th e y h a d
s t o p p e d t h e t r a f f i c .
Q. N o t h i n g h a d h a p p e n e d i n t h e s t r e e t u n t i l you a l l
t o o k o v e r , h a d i t ?
A. I d o n ’ t know. I d o n ’ t know how l o n g he h a d s t o p p e d
t h e t r a f f i c b e c a u s e , l i k e I s a i d , T w a s n ’ t a t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f
t h e l i n e .
Q. W e l l , when y o u came o u t i n t o L y n c h S t r e e t , i t s t o p p e d
a l l t r a f f i c i n L y n c h S t r e e t a t t h a t p o i n t , d i d n ’ t i t ?
A. When I came - - b e f o r e t h e m a r c h s t a r t e d t h e r e w a s n ’ t
a n y t r a f f i c c o m i n g u p L y n c h a n y w a y .
BY THE COURT:
Q. You mean w e s t b o u n d ?
A. W h a t ?
Q. You a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t c o m i n g u p L y n c h . Do y o u mean
t r a f f i c t h a t ’ s w e s t b o u n d ?
A. Coming up L y n c h .
Q. W e s t b o u n d ?
A. Y e s , s i r .
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8 4 5 .
n o o n ?
W a t k i n s , C r .
Q. What t i m e o f d a y was t h i s ?
A. I d o n ’ t know, a b o u t 1 1 : 3 0 o r 1 2 : 3 0 . I« m n o t s u r e .
Q. A r e you s u r e i t w a s n ’ t a b o u t 1 o ’ c l o c k i n t h e a f t e r -
A. I ’ m n o t s u r e .
Q. And yo u t e l l t h e C o u r t t h a t t h e r e was no t r a f f i c
on L y n c h S t r e e t a t one o ’ c l o c k i n t h e a f t e r n o o n .
A. I ’ m n o t s a y i n g w h a t t i m e i t w a s . A l l I am s a y i n g i s ,
when I came o u t on L y n c h , t h e r e was no t r a f f i c .
Q. Do yo u know why t h e r e was no t r a f f i c t h e r e ?
A. Y e s , b e c a u s e C a p t a i n Ray h a d s t o p p e d t h e t r a f f i c .
Q. W e l l , h e d i d n ’ t s t o p i t u n t i l a f t e r yo u a l l came down
t h e s t r e e t , d i d h e ?
A. I s a i d when I came o u t on L y n c h t h e t r a f f i c h a d b e e n
s t o p p e d .
Q. E v e r y b o d y was a l r e a d y o u t b e f o r e you came o u t on t h e
s t r e e t ~
l i n e ,
A. N o t e v e r y b o d y , I d i d n ’ t
and I d i d n ’ t s a y I was t h e b
Q. You s a i d y o u w e r e o ne o f
A. No, I d i d n ’ t .
s a y I was t h e end o f t h e
e g i n n i n g o f t h e l i n e ,
t h e l a s t o n e s o u t , I b e l i e v e
Q. W e l l , w h a t d i d y o u s a y ?
A. I s t a t e d t h a t I w a s n ’ t a t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h e l i n e ,
a nd I w a s n ’ t a t t h e e n d i n g o f t h e l i n e .
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846 ,
W a t k i n s , C r .
Q. Now, w h a t was t h e n e x t d a t e t h a t y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d o n ,
i n a l a r g e d e m o n s t r a t i o n ?
A. The n e x t l a r g e s t one was t h e o n e on D a l t o n S t r e e t .
Q. A l l r i g h t , a nd how many o f yo u w e r e t h e r e on t h a t o c
c a s i o n ?
A. I ’ m n o t s u r e , I w o u l d s a y a b o u t t w e n t y o r maybe mo r e
Q. T w e n t y o r maybe mo r e . You w e r e n o t a r r e s t e d i n t h e
p a r k .
l e a v e
b o d y
o u t b
moved
MRS.
A. N o .
Q. As a m a t t e r o f f a c t , yo u s t a t e d y o u w e r e a s k e d t o
t h e p a r k a n d l e f t , d i d n ’ t y o u ?
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q. The t r u t h i s t h a t e n t i r e p a r k was c l e a n e d o u t , e v e r y -
was r e m o v e d f r o m i t , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
A. W e l l , I c o u l d n * t e x a c t l y s a y t h a t e v e r y b o d y was moved
e c a u s e , e r , I d o n ’ t kno w, I c a n ’ t e x a c t l y s a y e v e r y b o d y was
, - I know -
Q. L e t me j u s t a s k y ou t h i s -
MORRIS:
L e t h i m f i n i s h .
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Go a h e a d .
A. I know a l l t h e n e g r o e s w e r e moved o u t o f t h e p a r k ,
I ’ m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r t h e w h i t e w e r e moved o u t
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847 .
W a t k i n s , C r .
Q. W e l l , you d o n ' t know w h e t h e r o r n o t e v e r y b o d y was
c l e a r e d o u t o f t h e a r e a o r n o t .
A. T h a t ' s r i g h t .
Q. How many t i m e s h a v e yo u a nd some t w e n t y t o f o r t y -
i s t h a t r i g h t , w o u l d t h a t b e a f a i r e s t i m a t e o f t h e n u m b e r -
how many t i m e s i n t h i s D a l t o n S t r e e t a r r e s t d i d C a p t a i n Ray
a s k yo u p e o p l e t o move o u t o f t h e m i d d l e o f t h e s t r e e t a n d s t o p
b l o c k i n g i t ?
A. W e l l , T c o u l d n ' t g i v e yo u a e x a c t n u m b e r .
Q. L e t me a s k you t h i s , t o r e f r e s h y o u r me mo r y , i s n ' t i t
a f a c t t h a t h e a s k e d yo u t o move o v e r , t h a t yo u w e r e b l o c k i n g
t h e s t r e e t some f i v e o r s i x o r s e v e n b l o c k s f r o m t h e p o i n t t h a t
y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d , a nd t h a t yo u d i d move o v e r , a nd h e w e n t o n .
A. A r e you t a l k i n g a b o u t D a l t o n S t r e e t ?
Q. Y e s .
A. T h a t ' s r i g h t .
Q. And t h e n yo u c r o s s e d t o t h e o t h e r s i d e o f t h e s t r e e t ,
a l l o f y o u , - i s t h a t r i g h t o r i s t h a t w r o n g ?
A. X c a n * t r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r we c r o s s e d t o t h e o t h e r s i d e
o r n o t .
Q. A l l r i g h t , i n a n y e v e n t , h e came b a c k t h e s e c o n d t i m e
a nd y ou w e r e b a c k o u t i n t h e s t r e e t , w e r e n ' t y o u ?
A. No , we w e r e n ' t .
Q. And h e a s k e d y o u t h e s e c o n d t i m e t o s t o p b l o c k i n g t h e
8 4 8
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W a t k i n s , C r .
s t r e e t a nd move o u t o f i t , d i d n ? t h e ?
A. No , when he came b a c k t h e s e c o n d t i m e , he j u s t s a i d
we was u n d e r a r r e s t .
Q. A l l r i g h t , w h e r e was t h i s ?
A. We w e r e on D a l t o n , n e a r F l o y d , I g u e s s .
Q. How w i d e a s t r e e t i s D a l t o n ?
A. I t c o u l d b e a f o u r - l a n e d r i v e , i f t h e r e w a s n ’ t
c a r s p a r k e d on b o t h s i d e s .
Q. A w i d e s t r e e t .
A. Y e s , w i t h no s i d e w a l k s .
Q. T h e s e m a s s m e e t i n g s t h a t y o u p a r t i c i p a t e d i n , w e r e
t h e y a l l s p o n s o r e d b y t h e NAACP?
A. I d o n * t know who was s p o n s o r i n g t h e m e e t i n g s .
Q. D i d yo u t e s t i f y t h a t yo u w e r e a r r e s t e d on May 3 1 s t on
F a r i s h S t r e e t ?
A. Y e s , I d i d .
Q. And how many p e r s o n s were a r r e s t e d w i t h y o u ?
A. Maybe t h r e e h u n d r e d , maybe m o r e .
Q. Does 3 2 2 s o u n d a b o u t c o r r e c t ?
A. Y e s .
Q. T h i s was a b o u t w h a t t i m e o f d a y ?
A. I w o u l d s a y a b o u t 4 : 3 0 .
Q. Who s p o n s o r e d t h i s d e m o n s t r a t i o n , w i t h t h i s p a r a d e ?
A. Who s p o n s o r e d i t ?
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W a t k i n s , Cr.,
Q. Y e s , who g o t i t up?
A. I d o n * t know.
Q. W e l l , w h e r e d i d you g e t i n t o i t ?
A. As I h a v e s t a t e d , a t t h e t i m e T h a d l e f t s c h o o l , a nd
I was h e a d e d t o w o r k , I w o r k e d down t h e r e on F a r i s h a t t h e S t a r
G r o c e r y . I p a s s e d b y F a r i s h S t r e e t C h u r c h , - t h a t was on
F a r i s h , and t h e r e w e r e some k i d s i n t h e r e s i n g i n g , a nd so 1
w e n t i n t o s e e w h a t was g o i n g o n , a n d so o n e f e l l o w s a y , "we
a r e g o i n g t o m a r c h on C a p i t o l S t r e e t " .
Q. Who s a i d t h a t ?
A. I d o n * t know h i s n a m e .
Q. S a i d y o u a l l w e r e g o i n g t o m a r c h on C ap i t o l S t r e e t .
A. Y e s .
Q. So yo u a l l t o o k o v e r F a r i s h S t r e e t .
A. Y e s . We was on t h e s i d e w a l k on F a r i s h S t r e e t .
Q. On t h e s i d e w a l k .
A. Y e s .
Q. A r e y o u t e l l i n g me t h a t a l l 3 22 o f y o u w e r e on t h e side-
w a l k ?
A. Y e s .
Q. None o f you w e r e i n t h e s t r e e t ?
A. W e l l , I w o u l d s a y t h i s , t h e g r o u p i n f r o n t o f me,
t h e y w a s n * t i n t h e s t r e e t , I d i d n Tt l o o k b e h i n d .
Q. T h e y w e r e i n t h e s t r e e t ?
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850 .
W a t k i n s , C r .
A. T h e y w e r e n ' t ,
Q. The y w e r e n o t i n t h e s t r e e t . W e l l , w h e r e w e r e you i n
t h i s g r o u p o f 322 p e r s o n s -
A. r w o u l d s a y I was m o s t l y i n t h e f r o n t .
Q. And yo u d o n ' t know w h a t h a p p e n e d b e h i n d y o u , who was
i n t h e s t r e e t a nd who was on t h e s i d e w a l k .
A. E v e r y b o d y was i n f r o n t o f me, t h e y was on t h e s i d e w a l k
Q. A l l r i g h t , and w h a t was y o u r p u r p o s e , y o u w e r e g o i n g
down t o do w h a t ?
A. We w e r e g o i n g t o m a r c h on C a p i t o l S t r e e t .
Q. You a l l w e r e g o i n g o u t i n t h e m i d d l e o f C a p i t o l S t r e e t
a nd d e m o n s t r a t e .
A. Y e s .
Q. So you i n t e n d e d t o t a k e C a p i t o l S t r e e t o v e r .
A. Y e s .
Q. D i d yo u h a v e a p e r m i t t o do t h a t ?
A. No, we d i d n ' t .
Q. You j u s t f e l t l i k e y o u h a d a r i g h t t o go o u t i n t h e
s t r e e t a n d t a k e a n y s t r e e t o v e r t h a t y o u w a n t e d t o u n d e r t h o s e
c i r c u m s t a n c e s , i s t h a t w h a t yo u a r e t a i l i n g u s ?
A. N o t a n y s t r e e t , - C a p i t o l S t r e e t .
Q. You f e l t l i k e y ou h a d a r i g h t t o t a k e C a p i t o l S t r e e t
o v e r .
A. T h a t ' s r i g h t ,
851 .
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W a t k i n s , C r .
Q. And yo u w e r e p r o c e e d i n g a t t h a t t i m e t o t a k e C a p i t o l
S t r e e t o v e r .
A. N o t e x a c t l y t o t a k e i t o v e r , we w e r e g o i n g t h e r e t o
show t h e w h i t e p e o p l e t h a t we was n o t a f r a i d , t h a t we w a n t e d
o u r e q u a l r i g h t s .
Q. B u t y o u w e r e g o i n g down t h e r e t o l e t a n y t h i n g h a p p e n
t h a t m i g h t h a p p e n , - i s t h a t w h a t yo u a r e t e l l i n g me?
MRS. MORRIS:
Y o u r h o n o r , t h e w i t n e s s h a s a l r e a d y a n s w e r e d t h e q u e s
t i o n a s t o why h e w e n t down t h e r e .
THE COURT:
I d i d n Tt u n d e r s t a n d y o u r o b j e c t i o n .
MRS. MORRIS:
The p r i o r q u e s t i o n was why h e w e n t t o C a p i t o l S t r e e t ,
a n d t h e a n s w e r w o u l d b e r e p e t i t i o n . He h a s a l r e a d y a n s w e r e d
i t .
THE COURT:
I w i l l o v e r r u l e t h e o b j e c t i o n ,
MR. TRAVIS:
f a r e
Q. W e l l , y o u
i n t h e C i t y
A. P a r d o n ?
know t h a t C a p i t o l S t r e e t i s t h e m a i n
o f J a c k s o n , d o n Tt y o u ?
t h o r o u g l -
24
Q. I s a y y o u know t h a t C a p i t o l S t r e e t i s t h e m a i n t h o r o -
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u g h f a r e i n t h e C i t y o f J a c k s o n .
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852 .
W a t k i n s , C r .
A. ( W i t n e s s n o d s )
Q. You n o d d e d y o u r h e a d i n t h e a f f i r m a t i v e .
A. Ye s .
Q. And i t was y o u r p u r p o s e , t h e n , t o move i n t o C a p i t o l
S t r e e t w i t h a l l t h o s e p e o p l e who w e r e w i t h y o u , 30 0 o r more o f
t h e m , and d e m o n s t r a t e .
A. Ye s .
Q. And n o n e o f yo u h a d a p e r m i t t o do t h a t , a nd y o u h a d
no p e r m i t t o d o t h a t .
A. T h a t * s r i g h t .
Q. And t h a t * s w h a t y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d f o r -
A. P a r a d i n g w i t h o u t a p e r m i t .
Q. P a r a d i n g w i t h o u t a p e r m i t .
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. You s t a t e d y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d i n 1 9 6 1 .
A. Y e s .
MR. TRAVIS:
We o b j e c t , I h a v e n o t m e n t i o n e d 1 9 6 1 .
MRS. MORRIS:
I b e g y o u r p a r d o n , y ou d i d , Mr . T r a v i s . You men
t i o n e d t h a t a r r e s t .
THE COURT:
A l l r i g h t , go a h e a d .
MR. WATKINS:
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853 .
W a t k i n s , R e d i r .
J u s t a m i n u t e , y o u r h o n o r .
THE COURT:
I d o n ’ t h a v e a n y r e c o r d o f t h a t .
MR. WATKINS:
N o t o n l y t h a t , i t i s n ’ t p r o p e r r e d i r e c t e x a m i n a t i o n , u n
l e s s Mr . T r a v i s w e n t i n t o t h a t a r r e s t , w h i c h he c e r t a i n l y d i d
n o t .
THE COURT:
W e l l , w h a t was t h a t a r r e s t ? I d o n ’ t h a v e a n y r e c o r d o f
i t .
MRS. MORRIS:
Mr . T r a v i s a s k e d t h e w i t n e s s how many t i m e s h e was a r
r e s t e d , and t h e w i t n e s s a n s w e r e d o n c e i n ’ 6 1 , a n d t h e n h e men
t i o n e d t h e t i m e i n ’ 6 3 . We now h a v e a 1 9 6 1 a r r e s t on 1be r e c o r d
t h a t i s n o t c l e a r e d u p .
THE COURT:
A l l r i g h t , go a h e a d . O v e r r u l e t h e o b j e c t i o n .
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. What w e r e you a r r e s t e d f o r i n 1 9 6 1 ?
A. I n t h e G r e y h o u n d Bus S t a t i o n .
Q. Wha t w e r e y o u d o i n g ?
A. We w e n t i n t o go t o t h e c o u n t e r , y o u know.
Q. The l u n c h e o n c o u n t e r .
A. Y e s .
854 .
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W a t k i n s , R e d i r e c t .
3. Who w e r e ' ' w e " ?
A. A b o u t f i v e more N e g r o e s .
Q. Whose l u n c h e o n c o u n t e r was i t ?
A. The w h i t e s i d e .
Q. The G r e y h o u n d Bus T e r m i n a l w h e r e ?
A. O v e r on L a m a r .
Q. I n J a c k s on?
A. Y e s .
Q. And w h a t w e r e you a r r e s t e d f o r t h a t d a y , do yo u remem
b e r ?
A. I h a v e f o r g o t t e n t h e c h a r g e s .
Q. What w e r e y o u d o i n g a t t h e t i m e ?
A. We d i d n * t g e t a c h a n c e t o make i t t o t h e c o u n t e r . As
s o o n a s we g o t t o t h e d o o r , t h e p o l i c e m a n me t u s and t o l d u s we
w e r e u n d e r a r r e s t , we a s k e d h i m w h a t c h a r g e s , a n d I h a v e f o r
g o t t e n w h a t t h e c h a r g e s w e r e .
THE COURT:
And w h a t ?
THE WITNESS:
He t o l d u s we w e r e u n d e r a r r e s t , a n d we a s k e d h i m
w h a t t h e c h a r g e s w e r e , a nd h e t o l d u s , b u t I h a v e f o r g o t t e n .
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Was t h e g r o u p n o i s y o r b o i s t e r o u s o r a n y t h i n g l i k e
25
t h a t ?
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855 .
W a t k i n s , R e d i r .
A. No, t h e y w e r e n ’ t .
Q. Now, yo u s t a t e d on J u n e 1 2 t h , 1 9 6 3 , you l e f t t h e
M a s o n i c T e m p l e . Wher e h ad yo u b e e n i n t h e M a s o n i c T e m p l e ?
A. We h a d b e e n i n t h e p a r t t h e r e - t h e a u d i t o r i u m p a r t -
Q. On t h e f i r s t f l o o r ?
A. Y e s , s i r .
Q. Now, t h e r e w e r e p o l i c e i n t h e a r e a a t t h e t i m e , - do
y o u r e m e m b e r w h e r e t h e y w e r e ?
A. Y e s , I w o u l d s a y a b o u t f i v e w e r e o v e r i n f r o n t o f t h e
M a s o n i c T e m p l e , n o t e x a c t l y i n f r o n t o f t h e M a s o n i c T e m p l e ,
b u t i t ’ s a l i t t l e r o a d n e a
Q. O p p o s i t e t h e doo
A. Y e s .
Q. And the y we r e -
A. Th e y w e r e p a r k e d
Q. Had t h e y b e e n t h
A. Y e s , t h e y h a d b e
s t r a t i on s s t a r t e d , b u t on
Q. Now, you w e r e as:
t h i n g a n d a n o t h e r , d i d yo u
yo u we r e t o a c t i n t h e c ou
A. No.
Q. Or i n t h e c ou r s e
A. No .
856 .
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W a t k i n s , R e d i r . A r v e n e Adams , D i r .
Q. You r e m e m b e r a n y b o d y t h r o w i n g a n y t h i n g on t h e 1 2 t h ?
A. N o .
Q. Now, why w e r e you a p a r t o f t h i s g r o u p t h a t was a r r e s
t e d t h a t yo u h a v e j u s t t e s t i f i e d a b o u t ?
A. What c r o wd a r e y ou s p e a k i n g o f ?
Q. The c r o wd on L y n c h S t r e e t , a n d a l l t h e s e d i f f e r e n t
d e m o n s t r a t i o n s t h a t y ou w e r e t a l k i n g a b o u t ?
A. r was m a i n l y p r o t e s t i n g a g a i n s t s e g r e g a t i o n .
MRS. MORRIS:
I t h i n k t h a t c o n c l u d e s my q u e s t i o n s .
THE COURT;
A l l r i g h t , c a l l t h e n e x t w i t n e s s . ( W i t n e s s e x c u s e d )
ARVENE LEE ADAMS
h a v i n g b e e n d u l y s w o r n , t e s t i f i e d a s f o l l o w s :
DIRECT EXAMINATION
MR. BELL:
Q. Woul d you g i v e y o u r f u l l n a m e .
A. A r v e n e Le e Ad a ms .
Q. And y o u r a d d r e s s ?
A. T o u g a l o o S o u t h e r n C h r i s t i a n C o l l e g e .
Q. Ar e y o u a s t u d e n t t h e r e ?
A. Y e s .
Q. Wha t i s y o u r c l a s s ?
A. J u n i o r .
8 5 7 .
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A. Adams , D i r .
Q. Wher e i s y o u r home?
A. H o l l y S p r i n g s , M i s s i s s i p p i .
Q. Have y ou l i v e d t h e r e a l l y o u r l i f e ?
A. Y e s , T h a v e .
Q. What i s y o u r r a c e ?
A. N e g r o .
Q. Ha ve you b e e n a r r e s t e d w h i l e t a k i n g p a r t i n t h e p r o
t e s t a g a i n s t r a c i a l d i s c r i m i n a t i o n ?
A. Y e s , r h a v e .
Q. On w h a t d a t e w e r e yo u a r r e s t e d ?
A. A p r i l 4 t h , 1 9 6 3 .
Q. What h a p p e n e d on t h a t o c c a s i o n ?
A. We w e r e w a l k i n g down t h e s t r e e t w i t h p i c k e t s i g n s .
Q. Who i s »we'»?
A. A u s t i n M o o r e , J i m m y A r m s t r o n g , a n d C h a r l e s D i c k e n s .
Q. A r e t h e s e s t u d e n t s a t T o u g a l o o ?
A. Y e s , t h e y a r e .
Q. What i s y o u r r a c e ?
A. N e g r o .
Q. Now, how d i d y o u h a p p e n on A p r i l 4 t h t o f i n d y o u r s e l f
w a l k i n g w i t h p i c k e t s i g n s ?
A. W e l l , we w a n t e d t o p r o t e s t t h e p o l i c i e s o f t h e p e o p l e
on C a p i t o l S t r e e t , t h e p e o p l e who w e r e h i r i n g , b e c a u s e N e g r o e s
d i d n * t h a v e a c h a n c e t o w o r k i n t h e s t o r e s , a nd t h e y w e r e
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858 .
A. Adams , D i r .
g i v e n d i s c r i m i n a t o r y t r e a t m e n t e v e n i f t h e y s h o p p e d , and we f e l t
t h a t t h i s was w r o n g , and we w a n t e d t o p r o t e c t .
Q. I s i t c o r r e c t o r i s i t n o t t h a t yo u w e r e p r o t e s t i n g
i n s u p p o r t o f t h e s e l e c t i v e b u y i n g c a m p a i g n ?
A. Yes .
Q. Now, e x a c t l y w h e r e d i d y o u c a r r y on t h i s p r o t e s t ?
A. W e l l , i t was on C a p i t o l S t r e e t , s o r t o f i n f r o n t o f
L e r n e r * s , - on t h a t s i d e .
Q. Were y o u p r o t e s t i n g a g a i n s t a n y p a r t i c u l a r s t o r e i n
t h e a r e a ?
A. The e n t i r e - t h e w h o l e c h a i n o f s t o r e s .
Q. Were y o u c a r r y i n g s i g n s ?
A. Y e s , we w e r e .
Q. Would y o u d e s c r i b e t h e s i g n s , - w h a t w o r d i n g , i f a n y ,
was on t h e m ?
A. We h a d t h i n g s l i k e '’N e g r o e s , d o n ’ t s h o p on C a p i t o l
S t r e e t ” - ’’E q u a l J o b O p p o r t u n i t i e s ” , a nd t h i n g s o f t h i s n a t u r e .
Q. Now, c a n y o u t e l l me w h a t t y p e o f p r o c e s s i o n yo u h ad
f o r m e d i n t o i n o r d e r t o make t h i s p r o t e s t ?
A. We w e r e i n a s t r a i g h t l i n e , a nd we w e r e c l o s e t o t h e
c u r b , n e x t t o w h e r e t h e c a r s a r e , v e r y f a r o v e r , and we w e r e
w a l k i n g a b o u t s i x f e e t a p a r t , I t h i n k , y e s , a p p r o x i m a t e l y s i x
f e e t a p a r t , i n a s t r a i g h t l i n e .
Q. And a b o u t w h a t t i m e o f d a y was t h i s t h a t t h i s p r o t e s t
859 .
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A. Adams , D i r ,
was c a r r i e d on?
A. I t was i n t h e e a r l y a f t e r n o o n , a b o u t t w o , o r o n e -
t h i r t y .
Q. We r e t h e r e many o r f e w s h o p p e r s g o i n g up a nd down?
A. T h e r e w e r e h a r d l y a n y .
Q. Now, t h o s e t h a t w e r e t h e r e , w o u l d yo u t e l l t h e C o u r t
w h a t a t t e n t i o n , i f a n y , t h e y p a i d t o y o u r p r o t e s t ?
A. N ob o dy p a i d a n y a t t e n t i o n a t a l l . P e o p l e c o n t i n u e d
t o w a l k on t h e o t h e r s i d e .
Q. How l o n g d i d yo u c a r r y on y o u r p r o t e s t ?
A. r t l a s t e d l e s s t h a n t h r e e m i n u t e s .
THE COURT:
Q. How many p e o p l e w o u l d you s a y w e r e i n t h e p i c k e t l i n e ?
A. F o u r .
MR. BELL:
Q. Wha t h a p p e n e d a t t h e e nd o f t h a t t i m e ?
A. We w e r e a r r e s t e d .
Q. You w e r e a r r e s t e d ?
A. Y e s , s i r .
Q. D e s c r i b e t h e c i r c u m s t a n c e s o f t h i s a r r e s t .
A. W e l l , b e f o r e we c o u l d g e t o u r s i g n s o u t , I saw a
p o l i c e c a r a n d p o l i c e p e o p l e c o m i n g , a nd we w e r e c o n f r o n t e d a t
t h e h e a d o f t h e l i n e , a n d t h e y s a i d ” y ou a r e u n d e r a r r e s t ” , and
we a s k e d f o r w h a t , and one o f t h e o f f i c e r s s a i d Mg e t i n t h e c a r ”
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a nd e a c
i n t h e
we g o t
o f f on
S t r e e t
A. Adams , D i r .
h o ne a s k e d u f o r w h a t ” , a n d t h e y c o n t i n u e d t o s a y , Mg e t
c a r 1*, and e v e n t u a l l y - t h e y d i d n ’ t t e l l u s a t a l l u n t i l
t o t h e p o l i c e s t a t i o n .
Q. How d i d you g e t t o C a p i t o l S t r e e t ?
A. I n a c a r - w e l l , we w a l k e d t o C a p i t o l S t r e e t . We g o t
A m i t e S t r e e t , a nd w a l k e d t o C a p i t o l S t r e e t .
Q. Were t h e s i g n s d i s p l a y e d a s y o u w a l k e d t o w a r d C a p i t o l
o r n o t ?
A. No .
Q. Wher e w e r e t h e y ?
A. W e l l , I h a d a b o x i n my a r m s , a nd t h e y w e r e b o t h i n
860 .
t h i s b o x .
Q. I s e e . Now, when y o u g o t t o C a p i t o l S t r e e t , d i d yo u
o r d i d y o u n o t t a k e o u t t h e s i g n s when y o u w e r e r e a d y t o p r o t e s t ?
A. Y e s .
Q. C o u l d y o u e s t i m a t e how much t i m e e x p i r e d b e t w e e n t h e
t i m e y o u s t a r t e d u n f o l d i n g t h e s i g n s a n d t h e t i m e t h e p o l i c e m e n
s a i d y o u w e r e u n d e r a r r e s t ?
A. L e s s t h e n t h r e e m i n u t e s .
Q. Now, w h i l e yo u w e r e - d u r i n g t h e t i m e y o u w e r e
w a l k i n g t h e r e , t h e p a s s e r s b y , t h e y d i d o r n o t h a v e a n y d i f f i
c u l t y i n g e t t i n g b y ?
A. N o t a t a l l , b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e n ’ t m a n y . We w e r e
n e a r t h e c u r b o v e r on t h e c o r n e r , y o u know, n e x t t o t h e f i r e
861 .
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A. Adams , D i r .
t h i n g , and t h e p e o p l e c o n t i n u e d t o w a l k , t h e p e o p l e t h a t w e r e
on t h a t s i d e .
Q. Now, you b e g a n o p e n i n g u p y o u r s i g n s a n d p u t t i n g them
o n . From t h a t p o i n t u n t i l t h e t i m e y ou f i r s t saw t h e p o l i c e m e n
b e a r i n g down on y o u , a p p r o x i m a t e l y how much t i m e a e l a p s e d ?
A. A b o u t a m i n u t e a n d a h a l f .
THE COURT:
Q. L e t me a s k yo u t h i s , t h i s b l o c k on C a p i t o l S t r e e t ,
f r o m F a r i s h S t r e e t t o L a m a r S t r e e t , i s t h e n u m b e r 1 b u s i n e s s
b l o c k i n J a c k s o n , i s n ’ t i t , - i t i s c o n s i d e r e d t o h a v e t h e b e s t
b u s i n e s s a nd m o r e p e d e s t r i a n t r a f f i c t h a n a n y s e c t i o n i n J a c k -
s o n , - w o u l d t h a t b e a v f a i r s t a t e m e n t ?
A. W e l l , I am n o t s u r e , b u t I know i t i s p a r t o f t h e
b u s i n e s s d i s t r i c t d o w n t o w n .
Q. You d o n ’ t know a b o u t t h e p e d e s t r i a n t r a f f i c ?
A. No .
Q. How w i d e w o u l d y o u s a y t h e s i d e w a l k i s , a s I u n d e r
s t a n d i t , y o u w e r e u n d e r t a k i n g t o p i c k e t t h e n o r t h , I mean t h e
s o u t h s i d e o f C a p i t o l S t r e e t i n f r o n t o f L e r n e r ’ s - i s t h a t on
t h e s o u t h s i d e ?
A. I t i s on t h e n o r t h s i d e .
Q. A l l r i g h t , how w i d e w o u l d y o u s a y t h e s i d e w a l k i s on
t h e n o r t h s i d e o f C a p i t o l S t r e e t ?
A. I w o u l d s a y f r o m 8 t o 10 f e e t .
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862 .
A. Adams , D i r .
Q. As I u n d e r s t a n d i t , you s a i d t h e d e m o n s t r a t o r s w e r e
u s i n g t h e o u t e r o r s o u t h e r n e d g e o f t h e s i d e w a l k , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
A. Y e s , s i r .
Q. What p o r t i o n o f t h a t s i d e w a l k w e r e t h e d e m o n s t r a t o r s
u n d e r t a k i n g t o u s e ?
A. I d o n * t u n d e r s t a n d .
Q. W e l l , w h a t w i d t h , - you s a y t h e w h o l e w a l k i s t e n
f e e t w i d e , w h a t p a r t o f t h a t w e r e y o u a l l u s i n g ?
A. I t was a b o u t a f o o t i n w i d t h .
Q. A l l r i g h t .
MR. BELL:
Q. I s i t c o r r e c t o r n o t t h a t yo u w e r e v e r y c l o s e t o t h e
p a r k i n g m e t e r s a s yom p r o c e e d e d up and down?
A. Y e s . I n f a c t , I bumped i n t o t h e m a s I was w a l k i n g .
I d o n T t know w h e t h e r i t was t h e p a r k i n g m e t e r s , i t was s o m e t h i n g
on t h e s i d e .
Q. Would y o u t h i n k i t was c o r r e c t o r n o t t h a t t h e d i s
t a n c e b e t w e e n t h e c u r b a n d t h e b u i l d i n g l i n e w o u l d a p p r o x i m a t e l y
b e t h e d i s t a n c e b e t w e e n y o u and me r i g h t n ow.
A. . A p p r o x i m a t e l y maybe t o t h a t c h a i r n e x t t o y o u .
Q. I t h i n k t h e r e c o r d w i l l show t h a t i t i s c l o s e r t o
a b o u t t w e n t y f e e t , a nd I t h i n k y o u r h o n o r w i l l t a k e j u d i c i a l
n o t i c e t h a t t h e s i d e w a l k s i n d o wn t own J a c k s o n , on C a p i t o l
S t r e e t , a r e t w e n t y f e e t .
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863 .
THE COURT:
A. Adams , D i r ,
I w o u l d n * t b e l i e v e t h a t e i t h e r . I would come n e a r e r
b e l i e v i n g w h a t s h e s a i d . I b e l i e v e i t i s a l i t t l e w i d e r t h a n
t e n f e e t , b u t I am q u i t e s u r e i t i s n o t t w e n t y f e e t . I d o n Tt
t h i n k t h e w h o l e s t r e e t i s mo r e t h a n f o r t y f e e t w i d e , b u t t h a t f s
a s u b j e c t f o r p r o o f .
MR. BELL:
Q. I n a n y e v e n t , w o u l d y o u r e p e a t w h e t h e r o r n o t a p a s s e r s -
b y h a d a n y d i f f i c u l t y p r o c e e d i n g down t h e s t r e e t .
A. None w h a t s o e v e r .
Q. Did you l a t e r l e a r n w h a t yo u w e r e c h a r g e d w i t h a f t e r
y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d ?
A. A l l t h e t i m e when we w e r e i n t h e c a r , we k e p t
a s k i n g why w e r e we b e i n g a r r e s t e d a n d a s we w e r e g o i n g u p i n
t h e e l e v a t o r , t h e man s a i d O b s t r u c t i n g t h e s i d e w a l k ” , b u t l a t e r ,
when t h e y b o o k e d me, t h e y t o l d me i t was b r e a c h o f t h e p e a c e .
Q. Do yo u know w h e t h e r t h e c a s e h a s b e e n t r i e d ?
A. No, i t h a s n Tt .
Q. Were y ou r e l e a s e d on b o n d ?
A. Y e s , we w e r e .
Q. Do y o u h a p p e n t o know t h e a m o u n t o f t h a t b o n d ?
A. Y e s , I d o , e a c h o f u s was r e l e a s e d on a b o n d o f $ 5 0 0
e a c h .
Q. Now, h a v e y o u e v e r b e e n a r r e s t e d w h i l e p a r t i c i p a t i n g
864 .
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A. Adams , D i r .
i n a n y o t h e r r a c i a l p r o t e s t ?
A. No, I h a v e n ’ t .
Q. Have you t a k e n p a r t i n a n y o t h e r r a c i a l p r o t e s t ?
A. Y e s , I h a v e .
Q. W i l l yo u d e s c r i b e t h a t p l e a s e ?
A. 1 h a v e a t t e n d e d some c h u r c h e s h e r e a nd I h a v e g o n e t o
t h e p u b l i c l i b r a r y .
Q. Did you go t o t h e p u b l i c l i b r a r y a s a p a r t o f a
p r o t e s t a g a i n s t r a c i a l d i s c r i m i n a t i o n ?
A. I was g o i n g m a i n l y t o u s e t h e l i b r a r y b e c a u s e I
w a n t e d t h e f a c i l i t i e s , b u t I u n d e r s t o o d t h a t n e g r o e s c o u l d n ’ t
g o .
Q. A r e you r e f e r r i n g t o t h e J a c k s o n l i b r a r y g e n e r a l l y
u s e d b y w h i t e s ?
A. Y e s .
Q. When d i d yo u go t h e r e ?
A. T h a t was b e f o r e t h e C h r i s t m a s h o l i d a y s . I d o n ’ t
e r e x a c t d a t e .
Q. Some t i m e d u r i n g t h e m o n t h o f D e c e m b e r ?
A. Y e s .
Q. What h a p p e n e d on t h a t o c c a s i o n ?
A. W e l l , we w a l k e d i n and s a t down a t o ne o f t h e t a b l e s
and a p o l i c e m a n came a n d s t o o d o v e r u s t h e e n t i r e t i m e I was
t h e r e .
865 .
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A. Adams , D i r .
MR. WATKINS:
I f t h e C o u r t p l e a s e , we o b j e c t t o g o i n g i n t o t h e u s e
o f t h e p u b l i c l i b r a r y ) , a l t h o u g h no a r r e s t was shown h e r e . I
t h i n k we a r e g o i n g f a r a f i e l d i f we a r e g o i n g t o show e v e r y
e x p e r i e n c e o f e v e r y w i t n e s s r e g a r d l e s s o f w h e t h e r i t i s w i t h i n
t h e i s s u e s o f t h i s c a s e .
MR. BELL:
L e t me s a y , Y o u r H o n o r , t h a t i t i s n o t f a r a f i e l d .
A l l o f t h e s e a r r e s t s a n d a l l o f t h e s e o t h e r i n c i d e n t s a r e
i n t e n d e d t o show t h e C o u r t t h e p o l i c y t h a t t h e d e f e n d a n t s h a v e
b e e n f o l l o w i n g , t h a t i s t o e i t h e r a r r e s t o r h a r a s s p a r t i c u l a r l y
t h r o u g h t h e u s e o f t h e p o l i c e f o r c e a n y i n d i v i d u a l who d e p a r t s
f r o m t h e o r t h o d o x v i e w s a s t o s e g r e g a t i o n i n t h e S t a t e o f
M i s s i s s i p p i and C i t y o f J a c k s o n . Some i n d i v i d u a l s who h ad
p r i o r p r o o f h a v e b e e n i n d i v i d u a l s who made p r o t e s t a n d w e r e n o t
a r r e s t e d b u t w e r e i n t i m i d a t e d i n one f o r m o r a n o t h e r and we
f e e l t h a t i s a l m o s t a s b a d a s an a r r e s t .
BY THE COURT:
I w i l l a d m i t i t f o r t h e l i m i t e d p u r p o s e i n d i c a t e d
w h i c h y o u r e q u e s t e d a nd f o r t h a t p u r p o s e o n l y a n d I w i l l a d h e r e
t o t h a t r u l i n g .
MR. BELL:
T h a t * s t h e o n l y p u r p o s e .
Q. Now, y o u i n d i c a t e d , M i s s Adams , t h a t y ou h a d v i s i t e d
866 .
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A. Adams , D i r .
c h u r c h e s a s a p a r t o f y o u r p r o t e s t a g a i n s t r a c i a l d i s c r i m i n a
t i o n ?
4 A. Y e s .
5 Q. W h e n d i d y o u m a k e s u c h
6 A. O n e S u n d a y i n N o v e m b e r ,
7 Q. I f I a s k e d y o u w h e t h e r
8 w o u l d y o u k n o w w h e t h s r t h a t w a s c
9 A. Y e s .
10 Q. W i l l y o u t e l l t h e C o u r t
11 s i o n ?
12 M R . W A T K I N S :
13 I f t h e C o u r t p l e a s e , w e
14 g o i n g i n t o t h e v i s i t o f t h i s w i t n
BY THE COURT;
I w i l l s u s t a i n t h a t o b j e c t i o n . WeTv e g o t t o s t o p
s o m e w h e r e o r we w o u l d n e v e r g e t t h r o u g h w i t h t h i s t r i a l .
MR. BELL:
I t h i n k t h i s i s v e r y v i t a l .
BY THE COURT:
I d o n Tt t h i n k s o . Yo u r o b j e c t i o n i s s u s t a i n e d .
MR. BELL:
W e l l , Y ou r H o n o r , n o t o n l y w o u l d t h e p o l i c y — -
BY THE COURT:
J u s t go a h e a d . I h a v e g i v e n y o u l a t i t u d e . You h a d
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A. Adams , D i r .
a n o p p o r t u n i t y t o d r a w y o u r p l e a d i n g s . You h a v e d r a w n i t , a n d
I h a v e a l l o w e d yo u a l l s o r t s o f l a t i t u d e , b u t r i g h t h e r e i s
w h e r e we s t o p .
___________________________________________ 867 .
MR. BELL:
W e l l , y o u r h o n o r , t h e p r o b l e m I h a v e now i s t h a t
mo r e a n d mo r e o f o u r c a s e s — we h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h m o s t o f o u r
d e m o n s t r a t i o n s a n d some o f t h e w i t n e s s e s we a r e c a l l i n g now w i l l
l e a d more i n t o t h e a s p e c t s o f t h e c a s e I h a v e b e e n t a l k i n g
a b o u t a l l a l o n g , a s t o t h e m e t h o d s o t h e r t h a n by a r r e s t s t h a t
t h e s e p o l i c i e s o f s e g r e g a t i o n a n d p r o h i b i t i o n o f a n y p r o t e s t s
a g a i n s t s e g r e g a t i o n a r e b e i n g c a r r i e d o u t .
Now, I t h i n k when we h a v e s t o p p e d m a k i n g a n y o b j e c
t i o n s d ue t o t h e f a c t t h a t d e f e n d a n t s h a v e , t i m e u p o n t i m e ,
t a k e n up a g o od p a r t o f t h i s t r i a l — w e ’ v e a s k e d t h e m a b o u t
d o c u m e n t s w h i c h t h e y h a v e n ’ t shown w h i c h t h e y do h a v e , a nd
u n t i l we s e e t h e m , we d o n ’ t kno w, a n d I t h i n k i f t h e C o u r t
r u l e d a n d r u l e d p r o p e r l y t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o l e t i t i n a n d
s e e how we c o n n e c t i t up l a t e r .
We i m a g i n e t h i s c a s e i s p r o b a b l y g o i n g t o t a k e f o u r
d a y s , a n d w h i l e i t may n o t b e p o s s i b l e a t t h e o u t s d t o f t h e
p a r t i c u l a r l i n e o f t e s t i m o n y t o make i t c l e a r t o a l l how t h i s
i s g o i n g t o be t i e d i n , I w o u l d r e s p e c t f u l l y r e q u e s t t h a t t h e
C o u r t a l l o w u s t h e o p p o r t u n i t y t o t i e i t i n . I f t h i s was
s o m e t h i n g , y o u r h o n o r , t h a t w as g o i n g on f o r a h a l f h o u r o r a n
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868 .
A. A da ms , D i r .
h o u r on t e s t i m o n y t h a t y o u w e r e n ' t s u r e o f , I w o u l d t h i n k t h a t
w o u l d be d i f f e r e n t , b u t i t t a k e s o n l y a v e r y f e w moment s t o g e t
t h i s i n t o t h e r e c o r d , a n d I w o u l d a g a i n r e s p e c t f u l l y r e q u e s t
t h a t we do h a v e t h e o p p o r t u n i t y .
THE COURT:
W e l l , I j u s t d o n ' t s e e t h a t a s b e i n g w i t h i n t h e l e g i
t i m a t e r a n g e e v e n o f t h e n o t i c e p l e a d i n g . I t h i n k I h a v e j u s t
l e a n e d o v e r b a c k w a r d s h e r e t o a l l o w y o u t o e x p a n d t h e r a n g e
u n d e r o u r l i b e r a l r u l e o f n o t i c e p l e a d i n g , b u t I t h i n k y o u ' v e
g o n e b e y o n d t h a t .
MR. BELL:
C o u l d I g i v e y o u t h e f a c t s ? C o u l d I do t h a t , y o u r
h o n o r ? I f y o u f e e l t h a t t h e r e i s a p r o b l e m a s f a r a s s u r p r i s e
i n t h e p l e a d i n g s , c o u l d I p o i n t o u t t h e p a r a g r a p h s i n t h e com-
p l a i n t w h e r e I t h i n k t h e s e m a t t e r s a r e ?
THE COURT:
P a r a g r a p h w h a t ?
MR. BELL:
I n t h e c o m p l a i n t .
THE COURT:
P a r a g r a p h w h a t ? I r e a d y o u r c o m p l a i n t v e r y c a r e
f u l l y l a s t n i g h t , b u t I ' l l l i s t e n t o y o u .
MR » BELL:
J u s t a m o m e n t , y o u r h o n o r , l e t me s e e i f I c a n f i n d
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869 .
A . A d a m s , D i r .
i t . N o w , m a y i t p l e a s e t h e C o u r t , I a m t r y i n g t o p l e a d my c a s e
I a m a n a t t o r n e y , i t i s n o t a m a t t e r o f a t t a c k i n g a n y o n e , a n d
i t i s n o t n e c e s s a r y f o r t h e d e p u t i e s t 0 a p p r o a c h m e l i k e t h i s .
I j u s t w a n t t o p l e a d my c a s e .
THE C O U R T :
A l l r i g h t , y o u a r e p e r m i t t e d t o a r g u e .
M R . B E L L :
T h e y d o n t t h a v e t o c l o s e i n .
T H E C O U R T :
I t h i n k t h e b e s t w a y i s t o r e a d t h e p r a y e r i n t h e
p l e a d i n g . T h a t ’ s w h e r e t h e a n s w e r i s . I t T s n o t a l o t o f w i n
d o w d r e s s i n g t h a t m i g h t b e s e t u p i n t h e p l e a d i n g s i n a l o t o f
g e n e r a l t e r m s , a n d I j u s t d o n ’ t s e e i t i n t h e r e , b u t g o a h e a d .
I a m s t i l l l i s t e n i n g .
M R . B E L L :
W e l l , l e t ’ s b e g i n w i t h t h e p r a y e r .
T H E C O U R T :
J u s t r e a d i t t o m e o u t o f y o u r c o m p l a i n t w h e r e y o u
s a y s o m e t h i n g a b o u t w h a t y o u a r e t r y i n g t o m a k e p r o o f o n .
M R . B E L L :
J u s t a s w e g o d o w n , w e a s k i n p a r a g r a p h 3 o f t h e
P r a y e r f o r a p r e l i m i n a r y a n d p e r m a n e n t i n j u n c t i o n a g a i n s t
c e r t a i n c o n d u c t w h i c h i s a l l e g e d t o b e i l l e g a l , a n d i n p a r a
g r a p h 3 ( a ) , w e a s k t h a t a n i n j u n c t i o n b e i s s u e d a g a i n s t t h e
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870 .
A. Adams , ^ i r .
d e f e n d a n t s , who we a l l e g e a r e p u r s u i n g t h i s p o l i c y u n d e r a u t h o r
i t y o f l a w , a g a i n s t t h e p l a i n t i f f s , t h e NAACP, i t s o f f i c e r s a n d
m e mb er s a n d a l l p e r s o n s a c t i n g i n c o n c e r t w i t h t h e m , who a r e
p e a c e f u l l y a n d p u b l i c l y p r o t e s t i n g r a c i a l s e g r e g a t i o n , a s s u c h
r i g h t o f p e a c e f u l a n d p u b l i c p r o t e s t i n g i s p r o t e c t e d by t h e
F o u r t e e n t h A m e n d m e n t .
W e l l , a c t u a l l y , e a c h o f t h e m ( b ) , r e f e r s t o b e i n g
a b l e t o w a l k p e a c e f u l l y on a p u b l i c s i d e w a l k . T h i s t e s t i m o n y i s
g o i n g t o i n d i c a t e , a n d s u b s e q u e n t p e r s o n s t e s t i f y i n g t o t h e same
t y p e o f t h i n g i s g o i n g t o i n d i c a t e , i t h a s n o t b e e n p e r m i t t e d by
t h e d e f e n d a n t s , t h e C i t y o f J a c k s o n .
THE COURT:
I h a v e n ’ t s u s t a i n e d a n y o b j e c t i o n t o t h a t k i n d o f
t e s t i m o n y e i t h e r , so l e t ’ s d o n ’ t t a l k a b o u t o n e t h i n g a n d e x a m i n e
t h e w i t n e s s a b o u t s o m e t h i n g e l s e .
MR. BELL:
No. W e l l , t h e t h i n g i s , s h e i n d i c a t e d b e f o r e she
was c u t o f f - t h a t s h e h a d g o n e o u t t o p r o t e s t s e g r e g a t i o n i n
t h e c h u r c h e s . Now, a t l e a s t a t t h i s s t a g e o f t h e c a s e , i f t h e r e
was no i n t e r e f e r e n c e by t h e p o l i c e , t h e f a c t t h a t t h i s p r o t e s t
m i g h t come u n d e r a d i f f e r e n t h e a d i n g , b u t i n m o s t c a s e s t h a t we
h a v e o f t h i s n a t u r e t h e r e h a s n ’ t b e e n p e r m i t t e d a p e a c e f u l p r o
t e s t by t h e d e f e n d a n t s a n d member s o f t h e i r c l a s s , b u t t h e r e h a s
b e e n d i r e c t i n t e r f e r e n c e i n o ne f a s h i o n o r a n o t h e r , e i t h e r by
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871 .
A. Ad ams , d i r .
a r r e s t s o r h a r a s s m e n t by members o f t h e d e f e n d a n t s . And f o r t h a t
r e a s o n , we m a i n t a i n t h a t t h e p r o t e s t s a g a i n s t r a c i a l s e g r e g a t i o n
i n t h e c h u r c h e s , l i k e t h e p r o t e s t s a g a i n s t r a c i a l s e g r e g a t i o n i n
P r i m o s R e s t a u r a n t , w h i l e c o n c e r n i n g a p r i v a t e s i t u a t i o n , t h e
c h u r c h o r t h e r e s t a u r a n t , w h i c h t h e C o u r t c e r t a i n l y wcu l d n Tt e n
j o i n f r o m o p e r a t i n g c h u r c h e s i n a n y way t h e y w a n t , n e v e r t h e l e s s ,
t h e C o u r t c a n p r o v i d e p r o t e c t i o n a g a i n s t i n t e r f e r e n c e by t h e d e
f e n d a n t C i t y w h i c h h a v e b e e n h e l d t o be l a w f u l by t h e C o n s t i
t u t i o n a n d a s i n t e r p r e t e d by t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s S u p r e m e C o u r t .
T h i s i s t h e p u r p o s e f o r a l l o f t h e s e t h i n g s . We a r e
n o t t r y i n g , a s I i n d i c a t e d b e f o r e , t o g e t a n o r d e r f r o m t h i s
C o u r t t o d e s e g r e g a t e a n y c h u r c h o r d e s e g r e g a t e P r i m o s R e s t a u r a n t
o r e v e n some o f t h e a r e a s o f p u b l i c f a c i l i t i e s , a s f a r a s p a r k s
o r t h e l i b r a r y .
What we w a n t t o show t o t h i s C o u r t i s t h a t i n e a c h
i n s t a n c e , w h e t h e r i t i s a p u b l i c f a c i l i t y , w h e t h e r i t i s a p r i
v a t e f a c i l i t y , a n y n e g r o o r a n y w h i t e p e r s o n who s t e p s o u t o f
l i n e a s f a r a s t h e o r t h o d o x v i e w on r a c e i s c o n c e r n e d i n
M i s s i s s i p p i , h e a r s f r o m t h e d e f e n d a n t , a n d t h i s h e a r i n g f r o m
t h e m i s i n v i o l a t i o n o f t h e c o n s t i t u t i o n a l r i g h t s , t h e h a r a s s
m e n t , t h e a r r e s t s , a n d we a r e e n t i t l e d t o t h e e x t r a o r d i n a r y r e
l i e f f o r w h i c h we h a v e r e q u e s t e d .
I w o u l d a s k t h e C o u r t , i f y o u w i l l , j u s t b e a r w i t h