Jackson Municipal Separate School District v. Evers Mimeographed Record Vol. II
Public Court Documents
January 1, 1964
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Jackson Municipal Separate School District v. Evers Mimeographed Record Vol. II, 1964. f12b00d4-b89a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/5b3a99c8-ad9c-488f-ba23-35e1c863a343/jackson-municipal-separate-school-district-v-evers-mimeographed-record-vol-ii. Accessed April 22, 2025.
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IN THE
UNITED STATES
COURT of APPEALS
FOR THE
F I F T H C I R C U I T
No. 21851
JACKSON MUNICIPAL SEPARATE SCHOOL DISTRICT, ET AL,
APPELLANTS
VERSUS
DARRELL KENYATTA EVERS, ET AL,
APPELLEES
Volume II
Appeals from the United States District Court
for the Southern District of Mississippi,
Jackson Division
MIMEOGRAPHED RECORD
I N D E X Page
No.
VOLUME II
Transcript of Testimony
Testimony; DR. JOSEPH E.
Defendant
Defendant
Defendant
Defendant
Defendant
Defendant
Defendant
Defendant
Defendant
Defendant
Defendant
Defendant
Defendant
Defendant
Defendant
Defendant
Defendant
Defendant
s Exhibit 1
s Exhibit 2
s Exhibit
s Exhibit
s Exhibit
s Exhibit
s Exhibit
s Exhibit
s Exhibit
s Exhibit 10;
s Exhibit 11:
s Exhibit 12:
s Exhibit
s Exhibit
s Exhibit
s Exhibit
s Exhibit
s Exhibit
s Exhibit
13:
14:
15:
16 :
17:
1 8 :
19:Defendant
Testimony: JOHN BELL Will
Defendant's Exhibit 20:
BARKER
Chart
Chart
Chart
Chart
Graph
Graph
Graph
Graph
Chart
Graph
Chart
Graph
Chart
Chart
Chart
Chart
Graph
Chart
Chart
HAMS
Committee Report
Testimony: JAMES GOODEN
Testimony: WILLIAM S. MILBORNE
Testimony: DR. R. T. OSBORNE
Intervenor's Exhibit 1: Statement
Intervener's Exhibit 2: Monograph
Intervenor's Exhibit 3: Monograph
Testimony: WILLIAM S. MILBOENE
Testimony: KIRBY P. WALKER
Defendant's Exhibit 21: Boole
Defendant's Exhibit 22: Chart
Defendant's Exhibit 23: Chart
Testimony: DR. HENRY E. GARRETT
Intervenor's Exhibit 5: Bibliography
Intervenor's Exhibit 6: Pamphlet
Intervenor's Exhibit 7: Article
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VOLUME II Alter R ecess
ME. B E L L : At the conclusion of Superintendent W alker's
testimony, I believe the plaintiff's are about finished, and we
therefore rest, with the understanding that we would have an op
portunity to put on rebuttal witnesses at the conclusion of defend
ants and intervenors' case. (E-300)
THE COURT: Yes, you certainly have the right to put on
any rebuttal testimony.
Very well. Whom will you have, Mr. Watkins? Are you
ready to proceed?
MR. CANNADA: Yes, we are ready, Your Honor. We
call D r. Joseph Barker.
DR. JOSEPH E . BARKER, called as a witness by the defendant and
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. CANNADA:
Q. Give your name to the reporter.
A. Joseph E . B arker.
Q. For whom do you work, D r. B arker?
A. I've been working five years with the Jackson Public School
system.
Q. P rior to that time, for whom did you work?
A. I worked for a junior college in Florida.
Q. Dr. Barker, would you give to the Court your educational degrees
and where they were obtained?
A. I have an AB Degree in mathematics in M ercer University in
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Macon, Georgia; Master of Education degree from the same in
stitution, in education and mathematics; and a Doctor’s degree
from Florida State University in the field of supervision and edu
cational measurements.
Q. And what has been your specialty, if any, since you have been
(E-301) connected with the Jackson Municipal Separate School
D istrict?
A. With standardized testing.
Q. And in that capacity, what were you?
A. D irector of testing and special education.
Q. As director of testing and special education, what tests, if any,
did you administer to the pupils of the Jackson Municipal Separate
School D istrict?
A. We have a battery of school tests beginning with the f irs t grade
readiness test, which has already been spoken of briefly this
morning.
Q. A little louder.
A. We test in reading, grades one through six, with a test that follows
the completion of the reader and the basic reading program. We
test for scholastic aptitude or intelligence in grades two, five and
eight and ten. We test with achievement batteries in grades four
through eight, and we give college qualification tests to all
eleventh graders.
Q. Are all of these tests conducted under your supervision?
A. They are.
Q. Do you get the results of these tests?
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A. Yes.
Q. Do you tabulate and use these results in any way?
A. Yes, s ir .
Q. What use do you put to these tests?
A. All of these except the college qualification tests are given (R-302)
in early fall. During the Christmas holidays, my office is r e
sponsible for the tabulation and the treatment of all data coming
back from them from the various schools, and we in turn treat
them to facilitate the further study on the part of the various
school staffs.
Q. D r. Barker, you have heard the testimony of Mr. Kirby Walker
previously in this case, X believe.
A. Yes, s ir .
Q. You understood him to testify that there were, as far as this dis
tr ic t is concerned, no Negro pupils attending schools attended by
any white pupils, and no schools attended by white pupils pre
dominantly attended by Negro pupils?
A. Yes, s ir .
Q. Do you know that to be true of your own knowledge?
A. Yes, s ir .
Q. Therefore, have you collated the information resulting from these
various tests so as to show the results as to each of the races —
that is , the Negro race and the white race?
A. I have done such, yes.
Q. Are you fam iliar with the tables that were attached to the answers
to the interrogatories filed in this case?
A. Yes, s ir .
Q. Did you actually prepare those schedules and tables?
A. Y es, s ir .
Q* Are they correct, to the best of your information and knowledge?
CR-303)
A. They are.
Q. D r. Barker, I hand you, or, rather, I am placing on the stand a
chart, and I ask you if you recognize this chart.
A. I do.
Q. What is it?
A. It is a chart reflecting performance for the past fa ll, the present
school year, on the metropolitan readiness test, a test given to all
f ir s t graders.
Q. That is in the schools of the Jackson Municipal Separate School
D istrict?
A. That is correct.
MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit 1 to the testi
mony of this witness.
THE COURT: Let it be marked.
(Same was received and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. X)
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
be inspected.)
Q. If you would, would you explain how this graph is made up? I see
A, B , G, D , and E on the left margin. Explain what the figures
represent.
A. This test, given very early in the fall to firs t graders, provides
some measure of the readiness status of the pupil in two areas:
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reading and number readiness areas. The scale as provided in
the test manual that is utilized is an A, B , C, D, E rating scale,
with A designated as "superior" readiness status, G"average"
readiness status, and E "poor risk " for doing adequate f ir s t grade
work. As I mentioned, there are two areas that are tested: read
ing readiness and CR-304) and number readiness. For purposes
of drawing up the chart, we weigh or assign numbers to these
categories and then treat them arithmetically. The initials above
the bar graphs represent the arithmetical mean performance in
both b areas, and total performance for white pupils represented
by the red bars and for Negro pupils represented by blue bars.
Under reading readiness for white pupils - - that is the
red column to the left - - the average performance with the scale
score that we use is 3 .5 , which is a performance level above that
of the national average, which in all instances here would be 3 .0 .
For reading readiness of Negro pupils, the average p er
formance was 2 .3 , which you see is below that of the national
average performance.
Likewise, in the number readiness area, white pupils
performed as an average at the 3 .6 index of the scale, which also
is above average; wherein Negro pupils performed at the 2. Q,
which is below average.
A sim ilar pattern exists for the total of these two scores.
Incidentally, the total is not the arithmetically average of the two
means, but has its own norm table from which these scores are
derived.
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(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
be inspected.) (It-306)
Q. Now, Dr. Barker, if you will, explain that table to us.
A. This provides a record of average performance on the group intell
igence test called the SRA Prim ary Mental Abilities T est on White
and Negro Pupils in the Jackson Public School System for the
years 1960, 1961, 1962 and 1963.
Q. Would you explain to us what the SRA Prim ary Abilities T ests are?
test
A. This is a widely used group/of scholastic aptitude that is struct
ured along the lines of Thurston's work with the various facets of
intelligence. The score that we used, which is called the IQ E s ti
mate is derived from a combination of two of the sub-tests in this
battery. The particular combination being that which correlates
most highly with the success in school work that pupils earn in the
immediate future.
Q. Is this test generally recognized and used throughout the nation?
A. That is correct.
Q. Go ahead with the table. It is given to all of the pupils in the 2nd,
5th, 8th and 10th grades of this d istrict?
A. Very, very few exceptions to that. I will refer primarily to the
present school year. The table reflects that for the second grad
ers numbering among white pupils 1966 that there was yielded an
average IQ estimate quotient or score of about 105 points. At the
same grade level for Negroes numbering more than 1500, there
was a yielded average (R-307) quotient of approximately 91 points.
Q. All right. The Fifth grade.
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A. For the present year for the fifth graders, 1800 white pupils,
approximately, there was an average quotient of 108; for the 1140,
approximately, Negro pupils there was an average of approximate
ly 861/2.
Q. Then your eighth grade?
A. For the eighth grade, white pupils numbering 1529 there was
yielded a quotient of approximately 107. For the nearly 1100 Neg
ro pupils at that grade level there was yielded a quotient of approx
imately 78.
Q. And the tenth grade ?
A. For the 1446 tenth graders there was yielded a score of approxi
mately 105. F or the 870 Negro pupils a score of approximately 78.
Q. I see on that chart you have also for the years preceding, ’ 60, '61,
and ’62.. And those figures opposite those years are for the re
spective years.
A. These figures show that at all the grade levels tested that the
average quotients among the white pupils remains approximately
the same within each grade level, and a sim ilar pattern exists
within the specific grade levels for Negro pupils; so at a given
grade, the pattern has been the same throughout this past four
year period.
Q. As I understand it, you do not have these tests for 11th or 12th
graders? (R-308)
These are all the tests that are given in this d istrict?
A. Of this nature, yes.
Q. I show you another chart that is labeled " Jackson, M ississippi,
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Metropolitan Achievement T ests 1963, Grade 4* " Do you recog
nize this?
A. Y es, I do.
Q. Are the figures shown thereon figures supplied by you as a result
of these tests you have administered?
A. They are.
ME. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit 3 to the testi
mony of this witness.
THE COURT: Let it be marked and received in evidence.
(Same was marked and received in evidence as Defendant's Exhibit 3}
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
be inspected.)
Q. Would you explain this chart to the Gourt?
A. The Metropolitan Achievement T ests are a well known and a wide
ly used battery of instruments that provide some measure of de
velopment or proficiency in most of the areas, academic areas,
that are significant in the public school process.
The scale or score that is provided on these instruments
is called a "stan ine,l! s - t-a -n -i-n -e . This stanine score is r e
lated to the percentages of pupils in the national norm group with
this breakdown:
A score of 1 in all instances and all grade levels and all
sub-tests in the battery would represent performance sim ilar to
that of the lowest four percent in the national norm group. A
stanine score of 2 would represent the (R-309) performance of
the next seven percent of the normal group. A score of 3 would
215
represent the performance of the next twelve percent in the norm
group, 4, the performance of the next seventeen percent. A 5
would represent the performance of the middle twenty percent of
all pupils in the norm group.
Now, the curve is sy m etrical, so the same percentages
diminishing now would relate to scores of 6, 7, 8 and 9, so that
a 1 again Is performance sim ilar to the lowest four percent, while
a 9 would be performance sim ilar to the top four percent.
There are several tests in the battery, including word
knowledge, word discrimination, reading, spelling, a total lan
guage score, an arithmetical computation score, and another arith
metic score having to do with problem-solving and the understand
ing of arithmetical concepts.
Q. Is this test given to all fourth graders in this d istrict?
A. With very, very, very few exceptions, yes, s ir .
Q. V/ould you te ll us the results, as reflected by that chart, for the
year 1963?
A. We have here with bar graphs shown the average or mean stanine
performance for white and Negro fourth graders for fa ll of ’63,
and all of the subject areas taken at this grade level. "Word Know
ledge, the red column to the left, we have an average performance
of stanine 5 .7 for white pupils, and stanine 3 .2 for Negro pupils.
In Word Discrimination, we (R-310) have scores of 5 .8 for white
pupils and 2 .6 for Negro pupils. In the Reading area, we have
average scores of 5 .4 for white pupils, 2 .7 for Negro pupils. In
Spelling area, we have an average score of 5 .9 for white pupils
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and 2 .6 for Negro pupils. In the Language Total area, we have a
score of 5. 5 for white pupils and 2 .3 for Negro pupils. In the
Arithmetic Computation area, we have an average of 5 .0 for
white pupils and 2 .2 for Negroes. In the Arithmetic Problem
Solving & Concepts area, we have a 5. 4 for white pupils, and 2 .3
for Negro pupils.
In every instance the performance of the white pupils is
at or above the national average. In every instance at this grade
level the performance of Negro pupils is lower than the national
average.
Q. Is this pattern true with reference to prior years, or just 1963?
A. We began to use this instrument in 1860. Our records reveal
that the pattern for fourth graders, white and Negro, for the years
1960, 1961 and '62 are essentially Identical to that shown here for
1963.
Q. Before I ask you about the next chart, in how many grades is this
Metropolitan Achievement test given in this d istrict?
A. We administer it in grades 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8.
Q. You do not administer it above the 8th grade or below the 4th
grade ?
A. That's correct.
Q. Is there a particular reason for that? (R-311)
A. We feel that with our philosophy that test results can help us work
more effectively with youngsters, more effectively with parents,
more effectively with respect to programming, that these are the
important years as far as standardized tests are concerned for the
217
utilization of such resu lts for such purposes. As you know, we
give other tests at other grade levels, but in term s of achievement
testing, It is during the upper elementary and lower junior high
years where battery testing, we feel, plays the greatest role with
respect to helping youngsters.
Q. This Metropolitan Achievement Test, is this a generally recognized
test used nationwide ?
A. Y es, it is , widely used nationwide.
Q. I have presented to you another chart labeled "Metropolitan
Achievement T ests 1963 Grade 5 ." Do you recognize that chart?
A. Y es, I do.
Q. Did you supply the data on this chart?
A. I did.
MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit 4.
THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit 4)
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
be inspected.)
Q. Now, would you explain.this chart as to the resu lts, without as
much detail as you did the previous chart?
A. This is sim ilar to the previous one. At this grade level, however,
there are some new tests added: in particular, (R-312) two skills
tests — language study skills and social study skills.
The scales and so forth are identical. The performance
of white pupils across the board are as follows:
In Word Knowledge, average stanine 5 .6 ; in Reading, 5. 5;
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in Spelling, 5 .4 ; in Language Total, 5 .3 ; in Language Study
Skills, 5 .9 ; in Arithmetic Computation, 5 .9 ; in Arithmetic Prob
lem Solving & Concepts, 5 .9 ; in Social Studies Information, 5 .0 ;
in Social Studies Study Skills, 5 .3 ; and in Science, 5 .8 .
For Negro pupils the scores are, respectively, 2 .3 ; 3 .0 ;
3 .0 ; 2 .7 ; 3 .2 ; 3 .8 ; 3 .7 ; 3 .0 ; 3 .4 ; and 3 .4 .
Q. This is the same grading scale that was used in the preceding
exhibit?
A, Exactly, and another feature of the stanine Is that the score itself
Is directly comparable from subject area to subject area; in other
words, a score of 5 in Reading represents performance on that
section of the test that would be at the same level, for example,
as a score of 5 .0 in Science. In addition, it is comparable from
grade level to grade level. An average of 5 one year, say, in the
5th grade and an average of 5 the following year in the 6th grade
represents identical performance on this kind of thing.
Q. That would indicate the normal growth of the youth from one year
to the next year if he retains the same stanine level?
A. If the stanine level remains static, that represents an (R-313)
average year's growth, whatever it might — at what level it might
have been, it has remained there.
Q. What does this show with reference to white students, with re fe r
ence to the national norm?
A. Similar to the 4th grade picture, it shows that for white pupils
performance in all ten areas of this battery of tests was at the
national average or above, and In a ll instances was below the
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national average for colored people.
Q. And this test, I believe you testified, is administered to all students
in the 5th grade area?
A. That is correct.
Q. I show you another graph and ask you if you recognize that?
A. I do.
Q. I t is labeled "Metropolitan Achievement T est 1963 Grade 6. " Is the
information appearing thereon information supplied by you? As a
result of this testing?
A. It is .
0 ^ MR. CANNADA: We’d like to offer this as Exhibit 5.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 5)
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to be
inspected.)
Q. I will ask you to explain this particular graph.
A. This is sim ilar to the graph for 5th graders. The tests, sub-tests,
involved are identical; the same scales are used, and the average
performances are as follows:
For white pupils, 'Word Knowledge, 5 .9 ; Reading 5 .9 ;
Spelling, 5 .9 ; Language Total, 5 .8 ; Language Study (R-314) Skills,
6 .2 ; Arithmetic Computation, 6 .0 ; Arithmetic Problem Solving &
Concepts, 6 .3 ; Social Studies Information, 5 .8 ; Social Studies
Study Skills, 5 .9 ; and Science, 5 .9 .
The average scores for Negro pupils, respectively, are
2 .4 ; 2 .8 ; 3 .2 ; 2 .4 ; 3 .0 ; 3 .1 ; 3 .2 ; 3 .0 ; 3 .2 ; and 2 .9 .
Here again we see that the average performance in all
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subject areas tested here for white pupils is well above the nation
al average, and for Negroes, below the national average.
Q. Is the same test given to all the 6th grade pupils in this d istrict?
A. That’s correct.
Q. This Is the same testimony you would be giving about this particu
lar graph as about the two previous graphs?
A. That is correct.
Q. I show you another graph which is labeled "Metropolitan Achieve
ment 1963, Grade 7. " Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Are the figures and information shown thereon figures supplied by
you?
A. They are.
MR. GANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit 6.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 6)
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to be
inspected)
Q. With reference to this exhibit, would you explain to us again--and I
believe it would be more clear if you would take each one of the
grades as you go along to show the resu lts of these tests. (R-315)
A. I will. The same scale is used. This is the same battery of tests
that have been previously spoken to.
Perform ances here are as follows:
Word Knowledge, for white pupils, 6 .3 , for Negro pupils, 2 .9 ;
Reading, white pupils, 5 .8 , Negro pupils, 2 .6 ; For Spelling,
white pupils, 5 .6 , and Negro pupils, 3 .1 ; for Language Total,
white pupils, 5 .4 , and Negro pupils, 2 .5 ; for Language Study
Skills, white pupils, 6 .2 , and Negro pupils, 3 .0 ; for Arithmetic
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Computation, white pupils, 5 .9 , and Negro pupils, 2. 7; for Arith
metic Problem Solving & Concepts, white pupils, 6 .1 , and Negro
pupils, 3 .5 ; for Social Studies Information, white pupils, 5 .6 , and
Negro pupils, 3 .1 ; for Social Studies Study Skills, white pupils,
5 .6 , and Negro pupils 2 .9 ; for Science, white pupils, 5 ,8 , and
3 .0 for Negro pupils.
Here again in every sub-test the average performance of
white pupils was above the national average, and for Negroes,
below.
Q. The same thing applies to this graph as applies to the same p re
ceding graphs except that this is for the grade 7?
A. Y es, s ir .
Q. I show you another graph which is entitled "Metropolitan Achieve
ment T ests 1963 Grade 8 ." Do you recognize this?
A. I do.
Q. Is the Information and the data shown thereon information and data
supplied by you? (R-316)
A. It is .
MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit 7.
THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit_no. 7)
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
be inspected.)
Q. Explain this graph.
A. This graph represents performance on this achievement battery for
8th graders during the 1963 school year. The subject areas are
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the same as for previous years, and the stanine scale, of course,
is identical. The performances for white and Negro pupils by sub
je c t areas are as follows:
In the Word Knowledge area, 6 .4 for white pupils, and
3 .1 for Negro pupils; Reading, 6 .1 for white pupils, 2. 7 for Neg
ro pupils; opelling, 5 .8 for white, and 3 .4 for Negro pupils;
Language Total, 6 .1 for white pupils and 2 .9 for Negro pupils;
Language Study Skills, 6 .2 for white pupils, 3 .0 for Negro pupils;
Arithmetic Computation, 6. 2 for white pupils, 2 .7 for Negro pu
pils; Arithmetic Problem-Solving & Concepts, 6. 5 for white pu
pils and 3 .3 for Negro pupils; Social Studies Information, 6. 2 for
white pupils, 3 .1 for Negro pupils; in Social Studies Study Skills,
5 .9 for white pupils, and 3 .3 for Negro pupils; Science, 6 .2 for
white pupils, and 3 .0 for Negro pupils.
Here again in every sub-test the average performance of
white pupils was above the national average; wherein the perform
ance of Negro pupils in every sub-test area was below the national
average. CR-317)
Q. As I understand it, D r. B arker, in all these Metropolitan Achieve
ment tests which you say you have given and have testified to of
the 4th through 8th grades, the national norm is 5 .0 ?
A. That is correct.
Q. In every instance the average of the white pupils has been equal to
or above the national norm, whereas the average for the Negro
has been less than the national norm?
A. That is correct.
223
Q. Now, with reference to all of these achievement tests — that is,
the 4th through 8th grades — are you fam iliar with what such a
graph would show for the years ’61, !62 and '63?
A. Y es, I am.
Q. What do they show?
A. They show essentially at all grade levels the same pattern as do
these for the fa ll of 1963 tests.
Q. Has there been any change at all that you have been able to tell
since you have been in this d istrict?
A. Not that I am able to tell.
Q. D r. Barker, I show you another chart or graph which has been
labeled "Jackson, M ississippi, College Qualification T est 1963
Grade 11. " Is the data and information appearing thereon data
and information furnished by you?
A. It is .
Q. Is it true and correct as presented thereon?
A. It is . (R-318)
Q, MR. GANNADA: We'd like to offer this as Exhibit 8 to
his testimony.
THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.
(Same was received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 8)
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Gourt the original is to
be inspected.)
Q. Dr. Barker, the f irs t graph that you testified to was the Readiness
Test for 1st graders; then the next, the Mental Intelligence Quo
tient Earned on SRA Prim ary Ability T est? That's correct, isn 't
224
it?
A. Prim ary Mental Ability Test. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, you have previously been testifying of the achieve
ment tests for the 4th through the 8th grades?
A. Y es, s ir .
Q. Now, you said you did not take any achievement tests subsequent to
the 8th grade that is sim ilar to those that you have testified to for
the 4th through 8th grade ?
A. Not as required or not in our basic testing program, no.
Q. Now, what tests do you give to your l l th or 12th graders?
A. We administer in the spring to all l lth graders a test battery call
ed the College Qualification Test. This instrument is a combina
tion of both acquired knowledge and verbal and numerical ability.
It was designed as a predictor of success in college.
Q. Did you give that test in 1963?
A. Yes, s ir . (R-319)
Q. I now call your attention to the graph or chart just introduced as an
exhibit to your testimony and ask if you would explain this chart to
the Court?
A. The score that is provided by this instrument is percentile. I am
sure we are fam iliar with that kind of score.
The areas that are tested, that were tested, are Verbal,
Numerical, and Information Total score as yielded from the two
additional areas, which are Information pertaining to Science and
Information pertaining to Social Studies. There is also yielded a
Total score, percentile score, for the entire battery.
225
The performance on white pupils in the Jackson public
schools is represented by the red broken line that you see in the
upper part of the chart. The performance of the Negro pupils is
represented by the blue broken line. Those performances during
this last fa ll were as follows:
•— With scores given as percentiles on the national norm
table — For white pupils In the Verbal area, a mean percentile
score of 58. 7; for Negro pupils, 17 .8 .
Q. Give us what the national norm is, or Is there such on this test?
A. The national norm on percentile score for all tests is 50.
For the numerical test, the mean percentile performance
for white pupils was 60 .0 , and for Negro pupils, 27 .6 . The Infor
mation Total mean scores were, for white pupils, 61 .2 , and for
Negro pupils, 23. 5. The performance on Science Information for
white pupils was 5 6 .9 , and for Negro pupils, 27 .5 . (R-320)
For Information Social Studies the average percentile performance
was 62 .7 for white pupils, and 20.0 for Negroes. The Total score,
percentile score, was 61 .2 for white pupils and 20 .7 for Negro
pupils.
Q. D r. Barker, based on your experience in this d istrict, is the result
of this test sim ilar to the results in previous years?
A. They are. The pattern is essentially the same for the years 1961,
'62 and '63.
Q. You have been testifying concerning these charts. I call your par
ticular attention to the f ir s t chart, which was labeled "Mean Intell
igence Quotients Earned on the SRA Prim ary Abilities T e s ts .11
226
Have you prepared a chart showing result of these tests In a graph
form ?
A. Y es, I have.
Q. I have placed a chart before you. Do you recognize that chart as
a presentation of those figures?
A. I do.
MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit 9.
THE COURT: Let It be received in evidence.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 9)
(Exhibit Is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
be inspected.)
Q. Dr. Barker, would you explain this chart to us?
A. This chart shows for grades 2, 5, 8 and 10 the mean performance
during Fa ll, 1963, of white pupils in this school system and Negro
pupils in this school system. This vertical scale to your left is
IQ estim ate. The horizontal scale pertains to grade level. We
see that Grade 2 (R-321) for the present school year, white
pupils, has a mean score of 104. 7, which has been previously In
dicated on another chart. We see going throughout the grades that
are tested — that is , 2, 5, 8 and 10, that this ability level stays
relatively constant.
The broken line in the lower part of the graph represents
ability level or scholastic aptitude level of Negro pupils, F a ll '63,
in the same grade level, 2, 5, 8 and 10. We see here a decline
starting at 90 .6 for second graders, and ending at 77 .7 for tenth
graders.
227
Q. Dr. Barker, based on your experience, is this pattern sim ilar to
what your records show for preceding years?
A. It is .
Q. This particular graph, along with others, deal with, as we have
said, ability or IQ. Would you explain to the Court the difference
between this chart or the tests that are given in connection with
these four grades, 2nd, 5th, Oth and 10th, as contrasted to the
achievement graphs we have just shown that are given from 4th
through 8th grad.es.
A. The Prim ary Mental Abilities tests are a measure of scholastic
aptitude or readiness to do school work in the immediate future,
regardless of the grade level at which they are administered;
whereas, achievement tests provide a measure of the level of
accomplishment in the various subject areas that are embodied in
the battery. (R-322)
Q. So as to this particular exhibit to which you_ attention is now di
rected, this measures or attempts to measure the ability of the
student to learn?
A. That’s correct.
Q. As distinguished from what he is actually doing in his grade?
A. Correct.
Q. I ca ll your attention to the original exhibits pertaining to your
achievement tests, in which you have testified and identified the
graphs showing the various subject matters from 4th through 8th
grades. Have you prepared charts picking up the information from
those five grades and putting them on a graph to demonstrate how
228
the whites and Negro pupils have performed In this d istrict?
A. X have.
Q. I show you here a graph, which is labeled "Word Knowledge M etro
politan Achievement Test. " Do you recognize this?
A. I do.
Q. Is this a demonstration, a showing, of the information contained
on the previous charts to which you testified?
A. It is.
MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit 10.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 10)
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
be inspected.)
Q. Now, Dr. Barker, would you explain this chart?
A. We have shown on previous charts the performance of white and
Negro pupils per grade level for any given chart. This chart
shows the performance at all grade levels tested. (R-323)
Q. Which grade levels are those?
A. 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 for this particular chart. We show the average
performance in the sub-test area of Word Knowledge for white
pupils and for Negro pupils. The scale is the stanine scale.
Q. What does it show with reference to the white pupils in the national
norm?
A. It shows with reference to the white pupils that in the Word Know
ledge area at 4th grade level an average performance of 5 .7
stanine; 5th grade, 5 .6 ; 6th grade, 5 .9 ; 7th grade, 6 .3 ; and 8th
grade, 6 .4 .
229
Q. What do you show for Negroes?
A. For Negro pupils it shows average performance, grade 4, 3 .2 ;
grade 5, 2 .3 ; grade 6, 2 .4 ; grade 7, 2 .9 ; and grade 8, 3 .1 .
Q. Now, Dr. Barker, in the exhibit that you have just previously testi
fied to, which was marked Exhibit 9, you testified that it showed
that at the 2nd grade they were much closer together, the Negro
and white pupils, and as they progressed to the 10th grade, insofar
as their ability to learn is concerned, the difference between them
widened.
A. That’s correct.
Q. That is upon your L- or Ability to Learn tests given?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, what does this chart that we are now testifying to, Exhibit 10,
show with reference to the two races insofar as the Word Know
ledge is concerned? (R-324)
A. It shows that the performance of white pupils increases slightly
throughout the grade level in the area of Word Knowledge, and
that the performance of Negro pupils generally is such as to r e
flect that they are "holding their own" on this kind of thing.
Q. Dr. Barker, I show you another chart which is sim ilar to the one
to which you have just testified. This purports to be a chart for
Reading for Metropolitan Achievement Test for '63. Do you recog
nize this chart?
A. I do.
Q. Did you furnish the information being inserted thereon?
a. I did.
230
MR. CANNADA.: We offer this as Exhibit Number 11.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 11)
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
be inspected. )
Q. Now, would you explain this graph?
A. This is mean performance, grades 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 on the M etro
politan Achievement Test for present school year for white pupils
and Negro pupils. The chart shows that for white pupils beginning
with Grade 4 with an average performance of 5 .4 . Going across
to Grade 8 with an average performance of 6 .1 , a slight increase
in performance level throughout that grade interval.
For Negro pupils beginning with a performance of 2 .7 at
the 4th grade and 2. 7 for the 8th grade, it shows a fairly constant
level of performance throughout the grade intervals.
Q. Is this the same information actually that was taken from other
(R-325) preceding charts introduced?
A. It is .
Q. I show you another graph, which Is labeled "Spelling - Metropolitan
Achievement Test, Mean Stanine by Grade" and ask you if you
recognize this.
A. I do.
Q. Did you furnish the information and data that is reflected thereon?
A. I did.
MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit Number 12.
THE COURT: Let it be received.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 12)
231
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
be inspected.)
Q. D r. Barker, would you explain this chart to the Court?
A. This chart is taken from a previous chart, Metropolitan Readiness
Test, and it shows average performance in the area of spelling
during grades 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 for the present school year 1963.
Those performances were as follows:
For white pupils, beginning with a performance level of
5 .9 at the fourth grade, 5 .4 at the fifth, 5 .9 at the sixth, 5 .6 at
seventh, and 5. 8 at grade 8, a fairly constant performance level
among those various grade levels.
For colored pupils or Negro pupils this shows an average
performance starting with 2 .6 at grade four, 3 .0 at grade five,
3 .2 at grade six, 3 .1 at grade 7, 3 .4 at grade 8, a slight tendency
to r ise with grade level for Negro pupils.
Q. This is the same information reflected on previous charts that
have been introduced? (R-328)
A. That is correct.
Q. I show you another chart which has been labeled "Language, Total,
Metropolitan Achievement T e s t ," and ask you if you recognize that.
A. I do.
Q. Is the information and data shown thereon information and data
furnished by you?
A. It is.
MR. Gi.NNADA: We offer this as Exhibit Number 13 __
THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.
232
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No* 13)
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
be inspected.)
Q. D r. Barker, I will ask you to explain this chart.
A. This is a chart showing the Language, Total, performance on the
Metropolitan Achievement Test, Grades 4 through 8, for the 1963-
64 school year. The white performance of white pupils for grade
4 at average stanine 5 .5 ; grade 5, 5 .3 ; grade 6, 5 .8 ; grade 7, 5 .4 ;
and grade 8, 6 .1 , showing overall a relatively constant perform
ance level in these various grade levels.
It shows for Negro pupils beginning with grade 4 an aver -
age performance of 2 .3 ; grade 5, 2 .7 ; grade 6, 2 .4 ; grade 7, 2 .5 ;
and grade 8, 2 .9 , a reasonably constant performance level
throughout the five grade level.
Q. These are showing that the two groups, as such, are progressing
grade by grade in accordance with what would be anticipated based
on their previous years' showing?
A. They are showing that the performance Is remaining for both
(R-327) groups relatively constant.
Q. Dr. Barker, I show you another chart which is labeled "Language
Study Skills, Metropolitan Achievement Test, " and ask you If you
recognize this?
A. I do.
Q. Is the data and information contained thereon data and information
furnished by you?
A. It is .
MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit 14.
THE COURT: Let It be received.
233
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant’s Exhibit No. 14)
(Exhibit Is not copied because by order of the Court the original Is to
be inspected)
Q. Will you explain this graph to the Court?
A. This Is the results of another subject area test, Language Study
Skills, that shows for the 1863 school year the average perform
ance of pupils in the grade 5 — And I make note here, this test is
not given in the 4th grade battery; consequently the broken lines do
not run out to 4th grade level, but commence with grade 5. - - -The
performance of white pupils was as follows:
Grade 5, 5 .9 ; grades 6 ,7 and 83 6 .2 in each of those grades.
For Negro pupils, 3. 2 at the 5th grade; and at grades
6, 7 and 8, 3 .0 for those.
Q. Again a relatively stable performance by both groups?
A. I t ’s relatively constant throughout those four grade levels.
Q. And the national norm is 5 .0?
A. That is correct. (R-328)
Q. D r. Barker, I give you here another chart, which is labeled
"Arithmetic Components,11 and ask you if you recognize that.
A. I do.
Q. Did you furnish the data and Information appearing thereon?
A. I did.
MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit 15.
THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant’s Exhibit No. 15)
234
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
be inspected.)
Q. Will you explain this chart?
A. This reflects performance in the sub-test area of arithmetic com
putation, commencing with the 4th grade, present school year; the
average performance of white pupils at 4jgrade was 5.0 ; at 5th
grade, 5.9 ; at 6th grade, 6 .0 ; at 7th grade, 5.9 ; and at 8th grade,
6 .2 . In this particular area there has been throughout the grade
level a slight trend to increase.
For Negro pupils the performance was as follows:
At 4th grade, 2 .2 ; at 5th grade, 3 .8 ; at 6th. grade, 3 .1 ;
at 7th grade, 2 .7 ; and at 8th grade, 2 .7 . - - Fairly constant or,
if any trend, a slight rise .
Q. The same observation could be made as to this chart as to the
others in this particular series?
A. That is correct.
Q. I show you another chart, which is labeled l!P . S. & C. Metropoli
tan Achievement T e s t , i! and ask you if you recognize that.
A. I do.
Q. Is the data and information appearing thereon data and (R-329)
Information furnished by you?
A. It is .
MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit 16.
THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 16)
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
235
be inspected.)
Q. Dr. Barker, would you explain this graph to the Court?
A. This is the sub-test problem-solving and concepts for the present
school year, grades 4 through 8, for white and Negro pupils.
The performance for white pupils was as follows:
At grade 4, 5. 4 for white pupils; at grade 5, 5 .9 ; at
grade 6, 6 .3 ; at grade 7, 6 .1 ; and at grade 8, 6. 5 — if any
thing, a slight trend to increase.
For Negro pupils, the performance was as follows:
At grade 4, 2 .3 ; at grade 5, 3 .7 ; at grade 6, 3 .2 ; at
grade 7, 3 .5 ; at grade 8, 3 .3 . There is a tendency of remaining
reasonably constant beyond this grade level.
Q. The same observation could be made with reference to this graph
as with reference to the the graphs to which you have just testified?
A. Correct.
Q. D r. B arker, I show you another graph, labeled “Social Studies,
Metropolitan Achievement Test, " and ask you if you recognize that.
A. I do.
Q* Is the data and information appearing thereon data and (R-330)
information furnished by you?
A. It is.
MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit 17.
THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 17)
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
be inspected.)
236
Q. D r. Barker, would you explain this graph to the Court?
A. This is a sub-test, Social Studies. The comments pertaining to
the identification of it given for the previous chart hold for this.
The average performance of white pupils: Grade 4, 5 .0 ;
g ra d e ------Pm sorry. I re tract that last statement.
The average performance for white pupils beginning with
grade 5 as follows:
Grade 5, 5.0 ; grade 6, 5. 8; grade 7, 5 .6 ; and grade 8,
6 .2 — a trend to increase throughout the four grade levels
involved.
The average performance for Negro pupils was as follows:
For grade 5, 3 .0 ; grade 6, 3.0 ; grade 7, 3 .1 ; grade 8,
3 .1 . Here the tendency has been to maintain a relatively constant
level of achievement.
Q. And the same comments would be made with reference to this chart
as is true with reference to the preceding charts in this group?
A. That Is correct.
Q. I show you another chart, which is labeled "Social Studies, Study
Skills, Metropolitan Achievement Test, " and ask you (R-331)
if you recognize this.
A. I do.
Q. Is the data and information appearing thereon data and information
furnished by you?
A. It is .
MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit 18.
THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.
237
(Same received, in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 13)
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
be inspected)
Q. D r. Barker, would you explain this graph to the Court?
A. This graph reflects performance in the Social Studies Skills area.
Other comments pertaining to the graph itself would apply as made
with respect to the previous charts.
The performances, beginning with Grade 5, for white
pupils were as follows: Grade 5, 5 .3 ; grade 6, 5 .9 ; grade 7,
5 .8 ; grade 8, 5 .9 — a relatively constant pattern; If anything, a
slight trend to increase.
For Negro pupils, the average performances were:
For grade 5, 3 .4 ; for grade S, 3 .2 ; for grade 7, 2 .9 ;
for grade 8, 3 .3 — a fairly constant or level pattern of achieve
ment.
Q. The same observations could be made with reference to this chart
as the preceding charts in this group?
A. That's correct.
Q. I show you one more chart, that is labeled, "Science, Metropolitan
Achievement T e s t ,n and ask you if you recognize that? (R-332)
A. I do.
Q. Is the data and information appearing thereon data and information
furnished by you?
A. It is .
MR. GANNADA; We offer this as Exhibit 19.
THE COURT: Let It be received in evidence.
238
(Same received In evidence and marked As Defendant's Exhibit No. 19)
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
be inspected.)
Q. D r. Barker, would you explain this test?
A. This is the tenth test of the battery. The performance of white
pupils, beginning with grade 5, in the area of science were as
follows:
5 .8 ; grade 3, 5 .9 ; grade 7, 5 .8 ; and grade 8, 6 .2 .
The average performances of Negro pupils were as
follows:
Grade 5, 3 .4 ; grade 6, 2 .9 ; grade 7, 3 .0 ; and grade 8,
3 .0 . There is a reasonably constant pattern of achievement level
of performance for both white and Negro pupils.
Q. I believe you testified that ’these patterns as shown by these series
of charts are substantially the same patterns as that of previous
years?
A. That is correct.
MR. CANNADA: That is all we have.
THE COURT: /my direct examination by any of the other
defendants or by the intervenors?
MR. SHELL: Y es, we have some questions. (R-333)
MR. LEONARD: Should we precede the plaintiff?
THE COURT: Yes, I think so.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. LEONARD:
Q. On the charts you have shown us, I notice that these lines occasion
239
ally go up and occasionally go down, but In each of these areas
they appear to have a pattern of their own. Is this a constant
pattern by subject? In other words, are all the subjects the same,
or do they differ In these charts? You notice, sometimes the
lines diverge and sometimes they converge, and sometimes they
just seem to have a pattern of their own. Are they consistent, or
are they merely test differences?
A. You can have various answers at a given grade level, from one
grade to another, because in some respects you are dealing with
slightly different performance levels. Of course, many other fa c
tors enter into it too. But just the mere fact that an average sta-
nine score of 2 .3 for one grade level and 2 .4 for the next grade
level, that is of little significance, as I see it, with respect to
planning the programs of the pupils.
Q. Well, are there any — In taking your past six or seven exhibits,
you have some in which your white students are increasing at a
time when your Negro students are holding steady. You have some
in which the white students are decreasing, and the Negroes are
Increasing. You have others which appear to diverge commonly
and others to hold parallel. What I am asking is, are these mere
test differences, or do they reflect differences in interest and sub
ject ability of the pupils? (R-334)
A. Well, we do, in the test results from the last four years, do have
a consistent pattern, whatever that might be, with respect to the
various subject areas that are tested. Now, as to what accounts
for these trends or differences, I am not qualified to answer.
240
Q. I wasn't asking that. I am merely asking what you have answered.
There is a consistent pattern?
A. We have not made an analysis with respect to the particular areas
in which these trends exist, as to what they are, nor as to why
they exist.
Q. D r. Barker, tell me one thing: I notice that on your SEA Prim ary
Mental Abilities test you had a constant divergence, year by year,
between the white and Negro schools^
A. That is correct.
Q. How do you measure achievement tests on the Metropolitan
Achievement tests in term s of using the ability of the individual
involved? Is there any correlation you can draw? For example,
you have at the 2nd grade on your exhibit for the Prim ary Mental
Abilities test 106 for whites and 94 for Negroes.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, presumably those two groups on the average would not
achieve precisely the same, while attending the second grade. Is
that co rrect?
A. Correct.
Q. Is there any correlation you can make to find out whether you
CR-335)
are teaching them up to their ability?
A. I think the test results show quite clearly that throughout the grade
level the Negro pupil here in the Jackson public schools becomes
more and more what we call an over-achiever. Now, the word —
Q. Would you explain that?
A. Y es. When we talk about achieving at expected level or under
241
achieving or over-achieving, we normally, In the educational field,
base primarily this reference point as aptitude or ability to p er
form. Now, if a pupil has low ability, relatively, or if a group of
pupils have low ability, then it is reasonable to expect typically
that performance likewise will be low because, after all, the
ability test itself is the best predictor we have through standard
ized testing to predict achievement in the subject area. Now, if
a pupil is performing, or if a group of pupils is performing below
what you might expect with respect to their ability, then they are
under-achieving. On the other hand, if they are performing beyond
that level at which you would expect with respect to their ability,
they are over-achievers. These data show clearly to me that our
Negroes in the Jackson public schools are over-achievers, or else
their achievement level would drop with an increase in grade level,
as does the scholastic aptitude score.
Q. Look at the last exhibit on top there, the one on Science, and
(R-336)
if you will look at the grade running from the 5th to the 8th, you have a
relatively straight line for the Negro child.
A. Y es, s ir .
Q. Now, during that period of time, as I understand your exhibit on
the Prim ary Mental Abilities T est, relatively speaking, the Negro
children in Jackson got a lower and lower rating? Is that co rrect?
A. On the intelligence test, yes.
Q. So that if the achievement here had followed the dropping on the
mental abilities test, the SRA test, then this line would also have
dropped, because it 's against the national norm.
242
A. It would be expected that that would happen.
Q. So that where it is, I take it, shown on a level as it is here, you
have in fact held them up to a level in spite of the dropping off of
the mental abilities as shown by the SRA test?
A. That's correct.
Q. And is that difference you are talking about now over-achievement?
A. That is correct.
Q* In other words, as you are now testifying, you are not only making
full use of their abilities, but you are holding them up to a grade
standard in this system beyond that which the SRA test would tend
to show?
A. That seem s abundantly clear to me. (R-337)
Q. Thank you, Doctor.
THE COURT: Are there further questions by the
defendant?
MR. WATKINS: No, s ir .
THE GOURT: Very well. Gross examine.
MR. BEL L: Your Honor, we are not going to cross
examine this w itless. As a matter of fact, we would make a
proper move, a general objection or move to strike the testimony.
I would like to say a word or two as to why we are not going to
cross examine this witness and the basis of our objection to this
type of testimony.
Now, the plaintiffs don't have any information available
to them that would enable us to determine whether all of these
charts and a ll of this data Dr. Barker has given to us is true or
243
not. We would, hope that most of It is substantially true and accu
rate. And to the extent that it is true, the plaintiffs submit that it
supports the opinion of sorhe of the plaintiffs who testified earlier
this morning that the products of the Negro schools are Inferior to
those of the whites, that the education that the Negro children are
receiving Is not as good as that being made available to the students
In the white schools.
Now, as I indicated earlier this morning in my opening
statement, the Brown decision of 1954 said that even if the tangible
factors of the school are equal, that separate schools violate the
plaintiffs' constitutional rights.
beyond any doubt either than, one, the Negro schools are inferior,
in which case desegregation would be required even under the old
Plessy-Ferguson doctrine; or, two, they have shown that Negroes
are as a group, as a race, as a c lass, inferior as far as education
is concerned. And this second concept, of course, flies in the face
of all other state laws, the United States Constitution, and, if we
may submit, common sense.
The issue in this case, as the Courts have previously held,
is whether or not the schools are segregated; and if the schools are
segregated, as this circuit has said frequently, then what kind of
plan of desegregating should be brought in, and when it should take
effect.
In this case and with this testimony, the defendants have
(R-338)
We have attempted to show that the schools are segregated,
and It appears that the defendants admit that this is so and are here
244
attemptingto justify that segregation. This, as we also indicated
this morning, is not novel nor new, and we support our general
objection to continuing with this type of testimony and refer the
Court to the early Fifth Circuit decision - - relatively early, back
In 1957 - - i n one of the phases of the New Orleans school case lit i
gation. The title there was Orleans Parish School Board vs. Bush,
242 Fed. 2d 156, at Page 163, where the Court reviewed parts of
the record tending to show that Negroes as a class were less able
to learn than their white counterparts, and therefore a c lassifica
tion based on race was justifiable. The Court (R-339) said that
It was interesting that there had been suggestion by the defendant
board of a classification of students based on ability to learn, and
they felt if such a classification had been suggested that the court
would have no objection to it and didn't feel the Constitution would
have any objection; but as to the classification based on race, the
court said — and I quote:
"It is unthinkable that an arbitrary classification by race
because of the more frequent identification of one race than another
with certain undesirable qualities would be a reasonable c la ss ifi
cation. "
For that reason, Your Honor, we would generally object
to all this type of testimony and have no cross examination.
THE COURT: At this time I will overrule the objection.
You may step down.
(Witness excused)
(Whereupon the court was recessed for ten minutes)
245
A fter-Recess
MR. WATKINS: We'd like to call John B ell W illiams.
JOHN B E L L WILLIAMS, called as a witness and having been duly
sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WATKINS:
Q. Please state your name.
A. John B ell W illiams. (R-340)
Q. Your age?
A. 45, I believe.
Q. Where do you live ?
A. My home is in Raymond, M ississippi.
Q. What is your educational background?
A. I graduated from high school at Raymond, Mississippi; graduated
from Junior College at Raymond, M ississippi; and attended the
University of M ississippi and the Jackson, M ississippi, School of
Law. I am a lawyer by profession, a member of the M ississippi
State B ar.
Q. Are you a member of Congress?
A. I am.
Q. What d istrict do you represent?
A. At present I represent the district designated as the Third Con -•
gressional D istrict of the State of M ississippi.
Q. Does that include the City of Jackson?
A. Y es, s ir .
Q. How long have you been a M ississippi representative in Congress?
246
A. I took the oath of office on January 3rd, 1947. That makes, I
believe I'm in my 18th year of service.
Q. Congressman, please state the congressional committees of which
you are a member, together with the length of time you have been
a member of each committee.
A. I am a member of the House Committee on Interstate and Foreign
Commerce, and I have been a member of that committee (R-341)
since my appointment to that committee in 1951. I am also a
member of the committee on the D istrict of Columbia, and I be
lieve that I went on that committee in 1955, as well as I reca ll.
Q. Please tell the Court whether, as a member of the Gommittee on
the D istrict of Columbia, you have had occasion to make a study
and investigation of the public schools of the D istrict of Golumbia.
A. In 1956 by direction of the Committee on the D istrict of Columbia,
a special subcommittee was set up to investigate — May I make
reference to the exact t it le ? — to investigate public school stand
ards and conditions and juvenile delinquency in the D istrict of
Golumbia. The chairman of that committee was Honorable Jam es
C. Davis of the State of Georgia. I was appointed as the ranking
Democratic member of that committee, and serving with us on
that committee were Honorable Woodrow V/. Jones of the State of
North Carolina, with the Republican members Honorable A. L .
Miller of the State of Nebraska; Honorable Joel T . Broyhill of
the State of Virginia; and Honorable DeWitt 3. Hyde of the State of
Maryland.
I served as a member of that committee, and we took
247
testimony from a number of witnesses in the D istrict of Columbia
Public School System. I believe that we took some two weeks of
testimony which covered some five hundred pages of transcript.
{E-342)
Q. Do you have there a copy of the report of that committee on its
findings?
A. I do.
MR. WATKINS: If it please the Court, I'd like to offer
the committee report in evidence as an exhibit in this case.
k U . BALL: Your Honor, we are going to object to the
admission of that report as completely Irrelevant to any of the
issues involved in this case. The issue here primarily is whether
or not the schools in the city of Jackson are segregated as far as
race is concerned. What the situation in Washington is, what the
findings of this particular committee are are completely irrelevant
to that, as far as we have been able to find from the pleadings.
MR. WATKINS: We expect to show that the situation is
comparable in that the percentages of population are substantially
the same, and we expect to show by this witness and by the com
m ittee's report what happened with both races as a result of the
integration of the schools in Washington, D. C., in all phases, from
questions of deportment, from scholastic achievement, on up and
down the line, how a good school system for both races deteriorated
as a result of the integration of those schools. And It is a matter
that is carefully documented and itemized. This witness knows of
it; he participated in it, and this Congressional reports comments
on it and brings out step by step, and It is competent to show what
248
will happen to the schools of this d istrict if this Court (R-343)
requires them to be integrated as were the D istrict of Golumbia
schools.
MR, B E L L : I add a further objection, with all due r e
gard to the Congressman. X must confess that I have never had a
Congressman testifying in any school cases in which I've been in
volved. It is somewhat of a different experience.
But this particular report, if aimed at proving what counsel indi
cates he hopes to prove by It, is certainly further incompetent by
reason of the fact that it Is a document that has been subject to a
great deal of controversy, with It being hailed as an outstanding
document by those who wish to preserve segregation and condemn
ed heartily as apolitical document by those who believe the deseg
regation Is the way the school system should be run. For a fu r
ther reason, we would suggest that the document, testimony based
on it, are incompetent to this case.
THE GOURT: I will overrule the objection. I think the
objection goes to the weight, rather than the admissibility. The
document is authorized by a resolution of Congress to be made,
and I think under those circumstances it is one of the facets that
might be considered by the Gourt in determining the Issue here;
so I overrule the objection and will let it be received.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 20}
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
be inspected.)
MR. \7ATEIN3: Your Honor, the Congressman states
249
that X took his copy away from him, and he has some notes he has
(R-344)
added in pencil and pen on it. May I have a copy that has not been
marked on in any respect substituted for the exhibit, rather than
the one the Congressman has?
THE COURT; Yes.
(Same was substituted)
THE WITNESS: Would you like me to identify that as being
a true and correct copy?
MR. WATKINS: Y es.
Q. See if this is a correct copy of the committee's report.
A. This is a copy of the report of the subcommittee following the
investigation.
MR. WATKINS: Then we offer this copy.
(Same previously marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 20)
Q. Please te ll the Court whether prior to 1954 and the Brown decision
by the Supreme Court the schools of the D istrict of Columbia were
segregated or Integrated.
A. The D istrict of Columbia operated a segregated school system,
Division A being the white schools and Division B being the colored
schools. The schools operated under a single school board, under
a single superintendent of schools, but each division had its own
superintendent and own principals, its own teachers; so In response
to your question, the answer is that prior to 1954 separate school
systems were operated.
Q. When were the schools of the D istrict of Columbia integrated?
A. The schools of the D istrict of Columbia were integrated in the fa ll
250
of the school year beginning in 1954. I believe that was (R-345)
some five or six months following the Supreme Court's Decision of
May 17th.
Q. What effect, if any, did integration of the schools have on the size
of the white population in the D istrict?
A. I think it is quite evident that the act of integrating the public
school system in the D istrict of Columbia brought about a mass
exodus of white residents from the D istrict of Columbia into the
suburbs, which at that time were totally segregated.
As a matter of fact, if it 's perm issible, I have in my hand
the population figures as shown by the 1950 census and the i960
census, which show that in 1950 the white population of the D is
tr ic t of Columbia which amounted to some 65 percent of the total
population was 5 1 7 ,8Q5 people. The Negro population of 'the D is
tr ic t of Columbia in 1950 was 230,803. By 1960, six years follow
ing the integration of the schools, the white population had de
clined by some 172,602 people to a total of 345,263, while the
Negro population had risen by 120,934 people to a total of 411, 737.
So the ratio of Negroes to whites rose from 35 percent
colored and 65 percent white in 1950 to a figure of 55 percent
colored and 45 percent white in 1960.
Q. And by 1956 what effect had integration had on the percentage of
white and Negroes in the schools?
A. May I make reference to the school report, which contains those
figures? (R-346)
Q. Y es.
251
A. I believe I have that here In more condensed form.
Q. All right.
A. Of a total enrollment In the public school system of the D istrict of
Golumbia in 1954 - - that was the firs t year of Integration - - i t
showed a total of 60 .8 percent Negro. Of a total enrollment of
110,041 students In 1957, that had risen from 60 .8 percent to 71.3
percent Negro. By 1960 out of a total school population of 122, 879,
that had risen to 79 .6 percent Negro. Out of a total enrollment in
the school year 1963, that's the school year just ending, out of a
total of 139,156 students enrolled, the total Negro population in
this school had risen to 85 .5 percent, leaving a proportion of 85.5
percent Negro and 13.5 — 14.5 percent white. And the white
population of the public school system of the D istrict of Golumbia
is still on the decline.
Q. What has been the effect of integration on the scholastic standards
on the schools of the D istrict?
A. I can testify only as to the findings of the committee which investi
gated the schools in 1956 for those two years of integration.
My answer to that Is that definitely there had been a lower
ing of standards in the public school system, which was admitted
by the officials of the public school system.
Q. Were national standardized educational achievement and IQ tests
given in the schools of the district during the 1955-CR-347) 1956
school year ?
A. It was testified before the committee by the school officials that
tests were given. Did you say achievement tests?
252
Q. Yes, achievement and IQ.
A. Achievement and I Q tests were given.
Q. What did the tests show with respect to the IQ 's of Negro and white
children as compared to the national average for the third grade?
A. For the third grade ?
Q. Yes, s ir .
A. The citywide tests, third grade, California T est of Mental Maturity,
which was an IQ test, showed that in the all white schools, or pre
dominantly white schools of the D istrict of Columbia - - - Perhaps
I should clarify that by saying that in 1954 the schools sytem
of the D istrict of Columbia stopped keeping figures by race. It was
necessary for the committee, in order to get the complete picture
of the situation, to categorize the schools of the D istrict of Colum
bia into predominantly white and predominantly Negro and heavily
integrated schools. — The predominantly white schools ran as
high as 98 and 99 percent white, and the predominantly Negro
schools ran about at the same proportion colored. The heavily in
tegrated schools ran from 35 to 65 percent of one race.
Now, in the third grade, California test of mental matur
ity, primary form , out of 10,098 third-grade pupils tested, show
ed that Group 1, which was the predominantly white school —
(R-348)
that's 22 elementary schools 99 percent white — showed an aver
age IQ rating of 105, five points above the national average.
The integrated group, which Is group III, the average IQ
was 96 - - between I and IE - - while the second group, which is all
colored or predominantly or 99 percent colored, the average IQ
253
was 87, which is thirteen points below the national average. So for
comparison we find that the white schools were five points above
the national average, while the Negro schools were thirteen points
below the national average.
Q. Was the Stanford Achievement Test given for that
same third grade?
A. Y es, it was.
Q. What was the result of that?
A. The citywide achievement, Stanford Achievement T est, reading and
arithmetic, primary from J , Grade 3, composed of five objective
tests which included paragraph meaning, word meaning, spelling,
arithmetic reasoning, arithmetic computation, showed that the
citywide average on these tests was 2.5, almost one grade below
the national average. However, when you get into the white schools
and you check those out, you find that the grade placement, 3 .1 ,
was exactly on the grade average. Group II, which was the inte
grated group, brought it down to 2.2, one grade below the national
average; and the predominantly Negro — Oh, CR-349) I'm sorry.
That was the the Negro schools. Group 2 is the predominantly
Negro. — The integrated schools, grade placement, 2.6, one-
half grade below the national average, and between Group I and
Group n .
Q. Please state whether the results of the tests given the 5th, 6th, 8th,
9th, 11th, and 12th grades were comparable to those of the third
grade. The results.
A. The results were comparable, yes.
254
Q. What effect did these tests have on those charged with the adminis
tration of the schools of the D istrict?
A. They were quite surprised to find the wide disparity between the
colored and white schools in regard, particularly, to achievement,
as well as intelligence tests. The result was that they had to r e
organize their school standard. It was necessary for them to r e
duce their school standards, and they also found it necessary,
according to some of the teachers, to spend more time trying to
keep order in the classroom than they were able to spend in teach
ing the children. They found it necessary, so it was testified, to
reorganize their promotional standard, for instance, to to the
point where the president of the school board, as well as I recall,
testified that students were being promoted on the basis of age,
height and weight, rather than on scholastic achievement.
Q. Did the disparity between the races decrease or increase (R-350)
in the higher grades?
A. The disparity in achievement, you mean?
Q. Yes.
A. The disparity increased as the grades went higher, and that is
shown definitely by statistical data which was furnished to the
committee and which was furnished by the D istrict of Columbia
School Board itself.
Q. Did the schools of the D istrict have many unusual disciplinary
problems before integration?
A. It was testified that they did not have any significant disciplinary
problems prior to Integration. That was testified by numerous
255
teachers, principals, and other officials of the D istrict of Colum
bia schools.
Q. And have there been any unusual disciplinary problems in the
schools since integration?
A. Yes, s ir . It was testified at one school in particular that it was
necessary to ca ll the police at least 25 tim es during one school
year to quell disturbances and to assist in maintaining discipline
in the school. It was testified at another schools that It was neces
sary for them to keep policemen patrolling the corridors. One
teacher after another, one principal after another, testified, as I
mentioned a moment ago, that they spent most of their time trying
to maintain order in the classroom and found precious little time in
which to instruct their students. CR-351)
Q. What effect —
A. To give you an example, the subject of vandalism came up in
the schools. We found that in 1955-'56 that they had to put an ex
penditure of some —- they had to designate some $50,000.00 for
the purpose of replacing broken windows in the buildings. I con
tacted the D istrict of Columbia Board of Education and found the
other day that In the current fisca l year, or in the current fiscal
budget, a hundred thousand dollars Is set aside for that purpose.
So it appears to be on the increase, rather than the decrease.
Q* What effect has this had on the teachers of the D istrict?
A. Well, the teachers themselves, I think perhaps their testimony
would provide a much better answer certainly than I could provide,
because I simply listened to the testimony 'that was given by the
256
teachers, but many of the teachers found it desirable to apply for
early retirem ent. Others stated that they were - - and I quote —
"nervous wrecks, " and others stated that they were performing a
most frustrating task in attempting to teach in these schools under
these conditions.
If you would permit me to elaborate on that just a bit, I
would read some of the testimony as It appears in this report.
Q. You are now reading from the exhibit.
A. Excerpts from the testimony of the school personnel. This begins
on page 25 of the report, I won't belabor the Court with reading
all of this, but I would simply refer the Court (R-352) to the te s
timony quoted from Mr. John Paul Collins, on page 25:
"Fighting, including several knifings, went on continuous
ly. While such incidents had occurred occasionally in previous
years, they became more or less commonplace following integra
tion, to the point of creating a serious disciplinary problem.
"There have been more thefts at Eastern High in the last
two years than I had known in all my thirty-odd years in the
school system. A teacher still at E a ste rn .. . * " —
This is the testimony of the former principal at Eastern
High School.
- —"A teacher still at Eastern told me recently that
stealing is now so rife at the school that it is no longer practical
to attempt to report all stealing incidents. . .
"I heard two colored boys making obscene rem arks about
a white g irl who was passing in the hall. I promptly suspended
257
these boys until such time as I could get satisfactory assurances
from their parents that they would discontinue such conduct. ”. . .
"P rior to integration, " he said, "I loved and lived with my
work, but the problems which I encountered after integration has
brought about a lowering of public school standards and student
academic achievement In the D istrict of Columbia public schools.
It has created problems of discipline that have disrupted educa
tional p ro c e sse s ."
Other witnesses, M rs. Katherine Reid, one of the teachers
(R-353)
in one of the schools:
"After integration the disciplinary problem was very
difficult. I found it very hard to make the colored children do what
I told them. And one day I was talking to a little colored girl, and
one of the colored boys said, "M iss Reid, why don’t you stop talk
ing to her and bat her over the head, the way her last teacher did,"
until we wondered if they used corporal punishment in division I I ." - '
I believe a moment ago I referred to it as Division B , but
it’s Division I and Division 31, Division I being the white schools.
M rs. Reid said, "There was constant fighting in the
classrooms between colored and colored, and sometimes between
colored and white. They would bat each other over the head with
books. The teachers have become very nervous and upset. I am
not saying all, but some have. "
Mr. Arthur Storey testified along the same lines. M r.
Wilmer Bennett of the school system; M rs. Dorothy Denton, and
numerous others; M rs. Elva Wells, the principal of Theodore
258
Roosevelt High School, I believe, testified to very much the same
thing.
All of this is in the report which has been introduced in
evidence, I believe, and I won't belabor the Court by reciting that
furtiier unless it is desired.
Q. Have there been any other developments which have come to your
attention subsequent to -the report of the committee (R - 354) with
reference to the schools?
A The public school system in the D istrict of Columbia has been a
constant source of controversy, to say the least, in the D istrict of
Columbia. Numerous studies, private studies, have been made of
the D istrict public schools by private groups with their own per
sonal axes to grind, but the fact remains that the white population
of the D istrict of Columbia continues to flee to the States of V ir
ginia and Maryland, where the schools are either all white or pre
dominantly white, to escape the low standards of the schools which
they have in the D istrict of Columbia. As a matter of fact, the
present superintendent, D r. Hansen, has been under a great deal
of fire in recent months because of the low standards that prevail
and obtain in the Washington public school system.
The Gourt might be interested to know that in 1955 the
operational cost of the schools on a per student basis was $268.00
per year per student. The figures which are contained in the cur
rent appropriations b ills under which the public schools of the
D istrict of Columbia are operating now, when divided by the num
ber of students in the public school system of the D istrict of
259
Columbia, shows that the current operating per student cost of the
D istrict of Golumbia schools has risen from the $266.00 figure in
1955 to a current figure of $477.00 per student, which is an in
crease of $211.00 per student since 1955. (R-355)
Q. Since the schools were integrated?
A. Since the schools were integrated, yes.
MR. WATKINS: I believe that Is all. Your witness.
MR. B E L L : We would, Your Honor, merely renew our
objection, pointing out in support of our objection to this testimony,
that the report shows that its members - - - and there were six per
sons on the subcommittee — and five of the six, Jam es C. Davis
of Georgia, John B ell Williams of Mississippi, Woodrow W. Jones
of North Carolina, Joel T . BroyhiH of Virginia, and DeWitt S. Hyde
of Maryland — five of the six came and were representing states
which were directly affected by the 1954 Supreme Court Decision
— that is , that decision would have required a change in the
method of the operating of schools In the states from which these
men came.
Further, there was only one other man who came from a
state where the decision of '54 would not have a direct effect, and
he was A. L . M iller.
Now, it is , we feel, significant in amplifying our earlier
objection, that two men, Congressman Miller and Congressman
Hyde, - - Congressman M iller from Nebraska, and Congressman
Hyde from Maryland - - did not sign the report which the other
members signed, and they stated as their reasons the following:
280
"Since we have not signed the majority report submitted
by the staff of the subcommittee, we desire to offer the (R-356)
following observations:
"1. We have carefully read the hearings, report, and the
recommendations made by the staff and the subcommittee. There
is much In the report that Is factual. The statistics speak for
themselves, and It Is not a record of which anyone can be proud.
The report Is provocative. It deals with the sordid, headline
items almost entirely. We have a feeling that a more objective
approach would uncover some good things in the educational and
social life of the D istrict schools.
"2. The report seems to blame all of the educational de
ficiencies In our school system entirely on the efforts toward inte
gration. We cannot believe that everything that is wrong with the
educational system can be blamed on Integration. It Is quite prob
able that many of the unsatisfactory conditions brought to light by
the investigation may have been caused by conditions that existed
prior to Integration, and are due to factors other than integration.
"3. In a close reading of the hearings, we must come to
the conclusion that the technical staff presented leading questions
to a selected group of witnesses. While we do not doubt the hon
esty or sincerity of the witnesses who testified, the testimony does
not appear to be well-balanced, or objective, since persons with
views not in accord with those of the counsel were not given full
and fair opportunity to testify.
"4. While the report shows some preliminary planning
261
had been made for desegregation, it does seem evident that no
(R-357)
complete plan had been carefully brought to a conclusion. There
did not seem to be a sufficient awareness of the many problems
that would be faced by the sudden change. While the Supreme
Gourt decision must be taken as final, we believe it did leave some
opportunities for 'a little play at the joints' in order to work out
the many delicate, emotional, and prejudice-packed problems of
integration.
"5. It appears to us that several of the legislative recom
mendations of the subcommittee report are not the proper subject
of legislation, but rather should remain administrative decisions.
In addition there are a number of the legislative recommendations
which we do not believe were covered by the testimony. For ex
ample, recommendations numbered 1, 6 and 9 do not appear to be
the proper subject for legislation; recommendations numbered 7
and 8 were not sufficiently covered by the testimony to come to any
intelligent conclusion.
"6. The facts brought to light by this investigation seem
to indicate that Negro leaders, and those actively interested in the
advancement of the Negro people, have much work to do among the
Negro people, and that all of the difficulties attended with integra
tion are not caused by the seemingly uncompromising attitude of the
white people.
"7. The recommendations of the subcommittee issued
subsequent to the original report, 'that racially separate public
schools be reestablished in the D istrict of Columbia, '
262(R-358)
obviously cannot be done without a constitutional amendment.”
These views were signed by Congressmen M iller and
Hyde, and for these reasons we renew the earlier objection to the
testimony.
THE COURT: I will adhere to my ruling and overrule the
objection. I think the objection goes to the weight, rather than
admissibility. It is an official document, as we all know, and
should have the consideration of the Court. So I will overrule the
objection and let it be received in evidence.
MR. B E L L : We have nothing further.
THE COURT: You may step down.
(Witness excused)
JAMES GOODEN, called as a witness and having been duly sworn,
testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. CANNADA:
Q. Give your name to the court reporter.
A. James Gooden.
Q. Where do you live ?
A. 124 East Monument, Jackson, Mississippi.
Q* How long have you lived in Jackson?
A. Since 1925.
Q. For whom do you now work?
A. I didn’t get the statement. (R-359)
Q. Are you now working or are you retired?
A* No, I am now retired .
263
Q. What have you done In the way of working while you have lived here
in Jackson?
A. I taught science and mathematics at Lanier High School; I was
of Lanier High School
principal/; I was principal and teacher of an elementary school;
I was director of colored schools until retirem ent.
Q. When did you re tire ?
A. In ’61*
Q. Professor, I believe you are a member of the Negro ra ce? That
is correct, isn 't it?
A. Yes.
Q. And did white pupils or Negro pupils attend the Lanier school at
which you taught and were principal?
A. They did not.
Q. Which race attended that school?
A. The Negro race .
Q. Did any white pupils attend that school?
A. No.
Q,. Professor Gooden, while you were connected with the schools of
Jackson Municipal Separate School — Strike that.
What year did you first become associated with the
schools of the Jackson Municipal Separate School D istrict?
A. 1925. (R-360)
Q* Did you remain connected with that school system all the way from
1925 until 1961?
A. Continually, yes.
Q* During that period of time, Professor Gooden, did you have any
264
occasion to attend any conferences or meetings of superintendents
or other educators?
A. I attended the American Teachers Association, attended the school
administrators* meetings, the National School Administrators.
Q. Where would that meeting be held?
A. Atlantic City.
Q. How often did you attend that meeting?
A. Every year from 1951 until I retired .
Q. And that is the meeting of school administrators from all over the
nation? Is that co rrect?
A. That is correct.
Q. Did D r. Kirby Walker, the superintendent of the Jackson schools,
attend the same conference?
A. He did.
Q. Professor Gooden, what is your educational background? Give us
your education and any degrees.
A. Elementary school in Madison County, where I was born. I did
high school and college in Alcorn A &, M College. I did my under
graduate - — I did graduate work at Northwestern, where I r e
ceived a M aster of Science in Education.
Q* Where is Northwestern located? CR-361)
A* In Illinois. Evanston, Illinois.
Q* What degree did you receive from Northwestern in Illinois?
A. Master of Science in Education.
Q* Do you have any other educational training?
A. No, none other than that.
265
Q. Then you became associated with the schools in Jackson D istrict
and have been there from 1925 until 1961?
A. Yes.
Q. Professor Gooden, as a matter of fact during this tenure of duty
with the Jackson schools, do you know of any incidents in which
members of both the Negro and white races have attended the same
school?
A. I don’t know of any.
Q. Based on your experience in these schools and your training, would
you give the Court your judgment as to whether the races attending
separate schools is good or bad or better or worse than if they
were integrated?
A. Well, if I judge by the progress that seems to have been made, it
seems that it was a serious handicap. I don’t know, I can’t say
whether it was good or whether it was bad because I didn't have the
comparative tests, but I know the Jackson public schools did make
considerable progress. When I came into the Jackson public
schools, we had about 15 teachers. There were no graduates, no
college graduates. When I retired there were more than four hun
dred in the public colored schools and all of them were college
graduates, and from (R-362) some of the best schools in the
country. And to my knowledge, they did a very excellent job.
Now, the basis on v/hich I am making that statement, I
listened to these partial reports; when I came in they were making
these reports. And what I have observed during these years, I
don’t know whether we have any ban is for determining whether the
266
Negro IQ is less than that of anybody else , but one thing that a l
ways disturbed me, that we worked on and we are still working
with, the great gap that I rediscovered in the Jackson public
schools came about as a result of the readiness of the children
who came to us. About prior to 15 years ago, the children who
came to us in the f irs t grade — I mean Negro children — they
entered as pre-prim er, and they stayed in the pre-prim er for one
year and then they moved up to the firs t grade. Then many of
them were not able to move on out of the firs t grade. We made
some surveys and we discovered that the reason for this was that
the child!s readiness was not determined - - that is , when he enter
ed school, he was not actually ready for school. The teacher had
an unusually difficult problem trying to get those children ready.
We still have those problems. Now, I don't know what
that — - That's not making any charge on anybody, but somehow he
lacked the basic experiences that would be needed to begin school
at the level at which the schools were pitched. And that has been
the problem. (R-363)
Now, what I was about to state, it seems to me that once
he Is in school, the gap that we find between these two groups does
not widen; it is beginning to narrow, but the gap that we have be
gins, it seems when the child enters school; and so I am of the
opinion that there is an opportunity for the Negro to move right
along if he wants to.
Q. In your opinion, based upon your training and experience, do you
think that the attendance by the white and Negro pupils of this
267
district at separate schools is better or worse than having them in
the same school?
A. Twenty years ago the attendance represented about 50 percent of
the school population, and at that time we had a compulsory school
law. The holding power of those who entered school was less than
sixty percent, or not more than sixty percent, — that is , with the
drop-outs.
When I retired , the holding power had increased very con
siderably — that is, the holding power now for the Negro schools
are almost equal to that of the white schools, if not equal. That
is the reason why we have to build and continue to build, not be
cause of a rapid increase of birth, but increase of the holding
power; so I have seen the holding power increase In the schools.
MR. B E L L : Could we enter an objection? It is very
interesting, but I don't know if it was responsive to the question.
I believe counsel's question was whether or not (R-364) Mr. Good
en felt that the better education could be bobtained In the Negro and
white schools, and we didn't get an answer to that.
THE COURT: Well, that Is the question, and I didn’t
gather what — - He can answer if he can what his opinion is, as to
whether it is better to have them separated or whether it is better
to have them integrated.
A* I don't have any basis to determine whether it is better or not.
Q.* Do you have an opinion on the m atter?
A* I have an opinion.
Q* What Is your opinion?
A. My opinion is that with the type of teachers that we have, with the
training that the teachers have, and with the difficulty and the prob
lems of basic experiences that the teachers have, and due to the
parent-teacher relationship that must be developed, that he has a
better chance of making the greater progress at this time in the
Jackson public schools. - - I ' m not talking about the country as a
whole; I ’m talking about what I know of the Jackson public schools
- - because there is a great deal of work that has to continually go
on between the parent and the teacher.
Q. Do I understand you to say it is your opinion that it is better for
the Negro to attend the schools with other Negroes and the whites
to attend the schools with other whites?
A. Yes, based on three or four basic needs. A student needs (R-365)
to achieve; he needs to belong; he needs to be loved. And those
things. I think he can get more of that with the group, if the group
is prepared to train him, than he would otherwise.
Q. By the "group, " you mean the group of his own race?
A. Yes.
Q. Again I want to make certain that I understand your testimony.
It is your opinion It Is better in the Jackson schools,
Jackson Municipal Separate School D istrict, for the pupils of this
district to attend the schools attended by members of their own
race?
A. Unless I could change the attitude of the white person toward him .
That is an important factor, to me.
Q- Am I correct in summarizing your testimony when I say it Is your
268
269
opinion It is better they attend the separate schools?
A. Unless the white man's attitude, feeling, toward me could be
changed. In other words, if he doesn't like me, I think it would be
a bad thing for me to send my six year old child to him.
Q. Professor, based on your observations and experiences, is there
any difference in the likes and dislikes of the members of these
two races, things that they like and don't like, are they character
istics of the ra ce s?
A. Oh, yes, as a natural result.
Q. What is your observation as to the differences in the (R-366)
characteristics of these two races?
A. Well, it is pretty difficult for me to name any specific things-
Now, we have some people among the, in the race that likes any
thing anybody else likes, and there are some others who like some
things that others don't like. We have our characteristics. I can't
point those out exactly.
Q- And you have no connection with the public school system in Jack-
son at this time at all?
h. None whatever.
Q* And you are giving this testimony based on your experience with
the school d istrict?
A* Over a period of 35 years.
Q* Are you proud or not so happy with the school system of this dis
trict that you were associated with?
Yes. I'm a part of It.
Q« Are you proud of it?
270
A. I ’m proud of it. I think the Jackson public school system is one of
the best in the country.
Q. Does that include the schools attended by Negroes, as well as
those attended by whites?
A. Yes. I ’m talking about both system s, because I think of both as a
system. We have two groups, but I don't think of it as a separate
system for each, for Negroes and for whites.
Q. Is there any basic difference in the facilities or the courses offer
ed in the schools attended by Negroes and whites? (R-367)
A. There is no basic difference.
Q. You know that of your own knowledge?
A. I know that, because all the courses that are mapped are gone over
with the joint groups.
Q. Professor Gooden, in selecting your teachers for the schools under
your control, did you have a free hand in getting the best teachers
available ?
A. We, the principals and director, was the final determining factor
of the person who was elected by the board to teach in Jackson
public schools. No teacher was elected by the board and handed
down to the public schools.
Q. And you, together with the principals under you, had a free hand in
selecting the teachers for which you were responsible?
A. That’s right.
Q* You recommended those to Mr. Walker, and he in turn to the
Board of T ru stees?
A. Those that we turned down did not get elected.
Q. And those you recommended did get elected?
A. Did get elected.
Q. And that was true during your entire term ?
A. It was true during my entire term .
Q. If a stranger was riding through Jackson in the summertime and
no students were at the schools, could he tell which one was
attended by colored students and which by whites?
A. With the exception of one or two of the old schools, he (R-368)
could not.
Q. If he went through the schools themselves, could he te ll?
A. No. I am saying that because I have been through every school in
J ackson.
Q. You have been through every school?
A. Every school in Jackson.
Q. And I believe you said you were proud of the school system?
A. Very proud of the Jackson public school system.
Q. Does that apply to the buildings themselves?
A. It applies to the whole system.
Q. It applies to the curriculum and the education?
A. Applies to the curriculum, applies to the personal relationships,
it applies to the relationships between the two groups, the two
races.
Q* Professor Gooden, is It your opinion that under the present system
the members of the Negro race are receiving the very finest ed
ucation that is available under the facilities and means of this dis
trict?
271
272
A. I think so.
Q. And the same thing would apply to the white people?
A. I think so. M r. Young there is a product of the Jackson public
schools.
MR. CANNADA: X think that is all. (R-369)
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. LEONARD:
Q. I was very interested in one statement you made. You said there
were four things a child needs: to achieve, to belong, to be loved,
and what was the fourth?
A. To achieve, to belong, to be loved, and to be wanted. And I think
that to be wanted is an important one. There are some things I
could say that I wouldn't want to say here, but that to be wanted is
very important.
Q. Now, tell me one thing, Professor Gooden: this morning you
heard M rs. E v ers? Were you here this morning?
A. No, I wasn’t here this morning.
Q. Mrs. Evers was on the stand, and she testified that she was num
ber two in her c lass in high schooL And I ’m talking now about the
first of your four things. In these cases there has been a great
deal of talk about talcing the superior Negro and — and, believe
Hie, we don’t question but there are many superior Negroes —
and putting them over into a white schooL And I would like to get
your thought on this, if I can. Assuming that you have a Negro in
an existing Negro school who would achieve highly, would be the
leader of his c lass , Is he the sort of person you think should be
273
moved over ?
A. In the f ir s t place, the best psychologist, among the best psycholo
gists, don't agree to putting him even in a separate group in his
own school. (R-370)
Q. That's part of your second statement, that he wants to belong, that
he needs to belong, in term s of his instruction and his education.
A. Yes, that is part of It. That's the reason why you don't want to
take him away. The psychologists say that. You don't take him
away from this sm all group because you don't want to have a breach
between him and the other person. Some psychologists are saying
now that there are no superior people, that you are just superior in
some things.
Q. In other words, his relationship is really one with his entire group.
A. Yes.
Q. And in this sense is there any relationship between the pupil and
the teacher?
A. Definitely.
Q. Or just —
A. Definitely. That's what I was trying to say. You see the school —
we conceive the school as being a function or part of the home, the
extending function of the home. When a child goes to school, the
child continues to carry on in that function. He learns to tall?: at
home, he learns to walk at home, he learns to eat at home, learns
those before he is six. Now, that's where this problem of disparity
often arises. But that continues when he goes to school. When
you're teaching him English, you're still teaching him to talk. So
274
that relationship, that extending of the home (R-371) influence, is
still prevailing.
Q. And the more you can extend that then, I take it, the more closely
the teacher can relate to the pupil, the more easily the educational
process will go?
A. And the more nearly you are likely to expand his ability.
Q. And the more nearly you can take advantage of his ability?
A. Yes.
Q,. Were you here at the time Dr. Barker pointed out the achievement
of the Negro schools of Jackson were even higher than any antici
pated figures?
A. I ’ve seen those figures — that is , over the years.
Q. You agree the schools have been actually doing that kind of 30b,
from your personal observation?
A. I will tell you this: There are two or three — I don't rem em ber--
I wish I could call their names - - maybe from the University of
Michigan — but two of the larger universities of the North pointed
out recently that they were beginning to bid for the graduates of
the Negro schools of the South, rather than the Negro schools of
the North, because those students that come from the South, he
says, made better students; and the reason for it is that very fact.
I don't know whether you call it over-compensating, but that does
happen. Those who do have ability do shoot up; they do advance.
Professor Gooden, let me make a statement to you, and I'd like
(R-372)
to see if you agree with me.
One of the chief counsel for the NAAGP, Jack Greenberg,
275
wrote a book about schools, and in that book he stated that approxi
mately 20 tim es as many high school graduates, Negro graduates,
from the South achieved the minimum college entrance board levels
than did the Negroes from the mixed schools of the North. Is that
what you’re saying?
A. That is essentially what I'm saying.
Q. In other words, you believe this is really a product of school sys
tems, and a product of the type of school system ?
A. It is a product of the type of teaching that we are getting. You see,
Negro teachers are pretty hard; they drive pretty hard.
Q. They have to, don't they?
A. They have to start at the beginning and drive hard. And as a result,
they get that kind of result.
Q. But they get it and, as I reca ll what you said, at the same time they
develop the holding power of the student and don't have the drop-out
that they have elsewhere?
A. Yes, s ir .
Q. Thank you very much.
GROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q,. Mr. Gooden, did I understand you correctly to say during the course
of your testimony that the general courses offered by the Jackson
public schools are the same for Negroes as they (R-373) are for
white?
A* Yes, s ir.
Q.- Now, if I were to tell you there has been testimony here today that
276
some courses were offered to whites that are not offered to Neg -
roes and some courses offered to Negroes and not offered to
whites, would you agree?
A. Yes.
Q. Then your f ir s t stalement isn’t true?
A. Yes, my firs t statement is true and that statement is true. Any
course will be offered to any school, whether it ’s white or colored,
that you have enough people who want that course.
Q. How do you determine whether or not they want it?
A. By the number of persons that make request for it.
Q. Does this go for the PvOTC?
A. No. The school doesn't have anything to do with the ROTC,
Q. Was ROTC available to white students in Jackson?
A, Yes, but that’s the government makes that available; the school
doesn't make it available.
Q. But it was not available to the Negroes?
A. No. W h en we attempted to make it available, the government
wasn't making any more available.
to
Q. Now, when you say you offer the subjects that people want, am 1/
understand you to mean you ask the students what they want?
A. No. Students each year at the beginning of the year the student
fills out — that's at the close of the year, about (R-374) now,
they will f ill out a list indicating courses he wants whether those
courses are offered or not. In other words, all the courses are
offered. Those offered in white schools and those offered in Neg
ro schools, they are there, and the student checks the courses he
277
wants. Those lists , when they are completed, are taken home and
they are signed by their parents. When they are finalized they are
signed by their parents. And they are brought back to the school,
and the course of study that will be offered during that year or
period will be determined by those forms that were filled out.
Q. Do I understand you correctly then to say that unless a large num
ber of pupils make application for a certain course —
A. — No, not a large number. I t ’s ten or maybe seven or ten, some
thing around ten. Enough for a class.
Q. But if there were not at least ten students who wanted that course,
although available at another school, then it would not be available
to that student?
A. Well, there are courses if they are not available in one school,
could be transferred to another school.
Q. What about courses available only in white schools?
A. Only in white schools?
Q* That's right.
A. I don't know what those courses are.
Q. There has been some testimony here today that there are —
(R-375)
A. — Well, as I say, I don't know what they are, so I couldn't tell
what you would do about those.
Q* I believe you said in talking about the schools that the schools them
selves —- and by that, I mean buildings — were all practically
equal? Is that so? Is that your testimony?
A. Equal?
278
Q. Yes. Substantially the same.
A. Well, when you say "equ al," it depends on what you mean when
you say "equ al."
Q. I said substantially the same.
A. Some of them are superior, if you are going to talk about size.
Q. Mr. Gooden, are you aware of the fact that all of the Negro schools
do not have gymnasiums?
A. Have what?
Q. Do all the Negro schools have gymnasiums?
A. All of the high schools.
Q. Are they combination gymnasiums and auditoriums or separate
gymnasiums ?
A. You mean gymatoriums?
Q. Do you have separate gymnasiums in the Negro and white schools
and separate auditoriums, or are they combined?
A. They are combined in two of the high schools, and they are
separate in one.
Q. What about the white high schools ? (R-376)
A. I don't know.
Q. I thought you said you were thoroughly fam iliar —
A. You said all the gymnasiums. We don't have gymnasiums in the
elementary schools.
Q* What about the white high schools?
A. They have them. We have the gymatorium. In the Hill School we
have a gymatorium, and Lanier School, but the plans are now to
build a gymnasium. The plans are already set now for the gym
279
nasium in both of those schools.
Q. You have only one high school now which has a separate gymnasium
and separate auditorium?
A. That's right.
Q. But what about the white schools.
A. They all have them, I suppose.
Q. They all have separate gymnasiums and separate auditoriums,
right?
A. I suppose.
Q. You made the statement it was your experience of working over a
number of years in the Jackson public school system that the chil
dren who came to school in the f ir s t grade were not ready. Is that
the term you used?
A. Yes.
Q. They were not ready?
A. Yes.
Q* Would I be correct in assuming this was due largely to the fact that
fam ilies
they came from /that had not themselves had too much (R -377)
educational opportunity or too many educational opportunities?
A. Either that, or lack of interest.
Q* Would you agree that there is a disparity between the educational
attainment of Negro parents and that of whites?
A. Yes.
Q* Would you say that that of the Negro parents was less than the
whites?
A* Yes, I would.
280
Q. Would you further agree that this gap had been closed in recent
years?
A. This gap of the child entering school?
Q. No, X mean the parents themselves. Don't you agree now that
Negro parents on the whole —
A. It's closing.
Q. It 's closing?
A. It's closing. The schools themselves have been in fact closing that
gap.
Q. Now, M r. Gooden, I believe you say you were a product of the
schools of the State of M ississippi?
A. Yes.
Q. Public school and college of M ississippi?
A. Yes.
Q. And that you also went to Northwestern University?
A. That's right. (R-378)
Q. - - where you obtained your m aster's degree.
A. That's right.
Q. Were you able to compete with those persons at Northwestern?
A. I finished in a c lass of 117, and I was, according to the director of
the school, I was in the upper ten percent of my class.
Q. Were there any other Negroes who were able to compete?
A. There were no other Negroes in that c lass.
Q* But you were able to compete?
A. I was in the upper ten percent.
Q* Now, the reason I asked you that is - -
281
A. - - 1 could show you that letter, if you want to see it.
Q, P E take your word for it. My reason for asking that question was,
there has been some indication in the testimony here today that
Negroes don't have the mental capacity as the white people. In
other words, that the Negro chEd does not have the native ability
to comprehend and learn as to the white people. Now, either you
are the exception to that rule, or the rule isn't true. Now, based
on your own experiences in public schools, based on your own ex
periences with Negro children over the years, is it your considered
opinion that Negro students are inherently inferior to white chil
dren?
A. No.
Q. That's all.
A. Let me elaborate on that,You can't measure ability unless CR-379)
you have a background of experience upon which to measure that
ability. Now, if the person exposed to the test doesn't have the
background of experience, then we will not be able to determine on
the paper whether he has it or not.
Now, let me give you this: At Northwestern, a psychol
ogy — a Negro professor who was the top man in his c lass was
talcing a PHD in Psychology. He went down in Chicago, and part of
his project was to make a test to find out the mental ability of chil
dren down in Chicago. He made up the test. P art of that test was
“““ That was the time when multiple choice was just coming out. - -
Part of that test was a multiple choice test, and he had on there,
"Milk comes from a factory; it comes from a bottle; it comes
282
from a cow; It comes from a so and so, " and every child that was
born in Chicago missed cow. Every one. Every one on that test,
some 18 or 20 , every one that was born in Chicago. This was an
intelligence test now. Every one that went from M ississippi or
somewhere else in the South answered that test question correctly .
Now, if you are going to use that as a basis to determine
who was the most intelligent, you certainly go for the South as
more Intelligent; so you have got to have experience and back
ground in order to determine this mate ability that you have back
there.
So I don’t agree that one is inferior.
Q. According to the explanation you have just given, it is your (R-380)
opinion that these standardized tests such as the ones introduced
in evidence today are not necessarily an exact measurement of the
child’s aptitude and ability? Is that correct?
A. No, they cannot be.
Q. Thank you.
THE COURT: Very well, you may step down.
(Witness excused)
THE COURT: Court will recess until nine o'clock to
morrow morning.
(Whereupon the court was recessed until the following morning)
(Tuesday, May 19, 1964, at 9:00 A.M . the tria l was resumed)
MR. WATKINS: We’d like to call Mr. William S.
Milborne.
283
WILLIAM S. MILBORNE, colled os a witness and having' been duly
sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WATKINS:
Q. Please state your name.
A. William S. Milborne.
Q. Where do you live, Mr. Milborne?
A. Louisville, Kentucky.
Q. Of what state are you a native, s ir ? (R-381)
A. Indiana.
Q. What is your educational background?
A. It’s all in the State of Indiana. Graduated from a sm all town e le
mentary school; did my high school work at the Academy, Valpara
iso University; one year at Purdue, AB Degree from Oakland City
College; M aster of A rts Degree from Indiana University.
Q. Have you had any connection with educational associations?
A. I have been connected with the North Central Association of Colleges
and Schools and with the Southern Association of Colleges and
Schools.
Q. Have you held any office in either of those?
A. I've held the office of President of the Southern Association.
Q> Have you in the past held any position with the public schools of
Louisville, Kentucky?
A. The first part of your question I missed.
Q.- Have you in the past held any positions with the public schools of
Louisville, Kentucky?
284
A. I have held positions with the public schools of Louisville from
1928 to 1962, during which tim e, with the exception of six months,
I was at one high school, three years as assistant principal and
the re st of the time as the principal.
Q. As principal of what school?
A. Louisville Male High School. M - a - 1 - e .
Q. During that time, M r. Milborne, did you also hold any position
(R-382)
with the Gity government of Louisville, Kentucky?
A. I was president of the Louisville Board of Aldermen for eight years.
Q. What eight years were those?
A. 1953 to 1961.
Q. Please tell the Court, if you will, something about the size and
nature of Male High School of which you were principal for so long.
A. In size, approximately 1400 students, varying somewhat from
year to year. Prim arily a college preparatory school, an old
school dating from 1816; a school with a lot of tradition, a lot of
pride, a lot of prestige.
Q. Was that school originally segregated? And by that, I mean was it
attended exclusively by white students?
A. It was segregated until 1954. I think the F a ll of '54, as I reca ll it.
Q. Was it desegregated at that time?
A. It was.
Q* Before it was desegregated, te ll the Court, please, s ir , whether
many or few of the students went from that school to college.
A. A very high percentage, for a public school, of the graduates went
to college, mostly to eastern colleges.
265
Q. After desegregation did that situation remain the same or did it
change ?
A. It has changed radically. (R-333)
Q. To what extent? In what way?
A. Well, at the present, relatively few of the graduates go to college.
Q. Prior to desegregation, did the students, graduates, of that school
win many scholarships?
A. A rather high number of scholarships. In years the total value
would amount to more than a hundred thousand dollars annually.
Q. Were those m erit scholarships?
A. That included m erit scholarships, some of the national m erit
college board examinations.
Q. What is a m erit scholarship?
A. It is a scholarship provided by a foundation. It is a competitive
scholarship in which the students who are competing, or applying,
take a set examination. It is national-wide. It provides full tuition,
full expenses, to the winners of the scholarships.
to
Q. Were those scholarships/what you would consider the top colleges
in the country?
A. I believe they are so considered.
Q. Can you give me a few examples of those colleges to which the
students usually got scholarships?
A. Eastern schools.. They can use them in many schools. The
scholarships are granted to the student to be applied to the school
of his choice.
Q,. Were there any southern schools involved, such as Washington
236
& Lee? (R-384)
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Now, what has the situation been with respect to scholarships
since desegregation of Male High School?
A. The number of applicants for the m erit scholarships has greatly
dwindled. I do not reca ll In the past several years of one of the
applicants winning a scholarship.
Q. Can you re ca ll of a scholarship having been won in the past five
years?
A. Well, I have to trust my memory. I do not.
Q. Were there any serious problems with reference to discipline in
the school prior to desegregation?
A. We had the usual run of secondary school problems of discipline,
nothing serious.
Q. Has the situation with reference to discipline changed any since
desegregation?
A. It has changed markedly to the point that the problem of discipline
takes up a great deal of time of the school administrators and of
the teachers, a disproportionate part of the time that they must
give to maintain proper decorum in the classroom s and building.
That is time taken from actual teaching.
Q. Do I understand you to say that if the teachers were not involved
in problems of discipline, they could use that time in teaching the
students?
A. Oh, yes, definitely. (R-385)
Q* With reference to discipline, I ’d like for you to give me some
287
examples of fee type of problems Involved. Did they involve
stealing?
A. It Is a difficult tiling to describe, but it Involved such tilings as
student conduct in the hallways. Before the integration or deseg
regation we had the usual hum or buzz in the hallways. After that,
after we got a considerable number of Negroes, there was much
loud, loose talking in the hallways, much fighting, particularly
among g irls , much conduct in the classroom itself that a teacher
couldn’t condone and carry on a class. There was considerable
petty stealing that we had not had before.
Q. What about cheating?
A. Cheating increased markedly.
Q. Did desegregation have any effect on your ability to keep a good
faculty in the school?
A. Yes, it had a decided effect. Of course, some of the better, more
experienced teachers, they became disheartened, disgusted. They
transferred to other schools In the city system, or they sought
employment in other school systems, or they quit the profession.
We found it more difficult to keep and maintain a good faculty.
Q. Mr. Milborne, was there any change in the general personnel of
the school pupils after desegregation? By that I mean, did they
incline to become predominantly white or predominantly (R-386)
Negro after desegregation took place?
A* Well, at the f ir s t we had only a token number of Negro students - —
35, as I reca ll it — who apparently had been handpicked, and we
got along quite well, although they did not live up to what we
288
thought they should academically.
Q. Excuse me. When you say "handpicked, 11 do you mean they were
students of unusually high IQ 's?
A. They were considerably above the average.
Q. At the time, when you were telling me how they performed in Male
High School, how did they perform?
A. I said that they disappointed us in their academic achievement;
based on the grades that they had had before they came to us and
their IQ 's, we expected more than we got.
Q. Were those 35 handpicked students followed by other Negro stu
dents?
A. Yes, but not by handpicked. Little by little we got the mine-run of
students from the junior high schools.
Q. What were the natures of those students?
A. Well, they were lower academic calibre.
Q. What general effect did desegregation have on the quality of that
school as a teaching instrumentality?
A. Well, there was a general erosion of the scholarship from a high
academic standard to a relatively low standard. There was a
lowering of the discipline in the school. There was a distinct
lowering of the tone and moral fiber of the school. (Pu-387) As
the Negroes moved in, the better white students moved out; so the
percentage of white decreased, and the percentage of colored stu
dents increased. And that process is still going on.
Q* Mr. Milborne, was the desegregation of the Louisville school
about which you have testified on a voluntary basis or as a result
289
of a court order ?
A. It was on a voluntary basis, but it followed the Topeka court order.
Q. Have you had occasion to study and observe the effects of desegre
gation in the public schools of other cities other than Louisville,
Kentucky?
A. I have seen it in a number of schools. I have seen it in Washington,
Philadelphia, Gary, Indiana, Chicago, Cleveland, Indianapolis,
Kansas City.
Q. Please te ll the Court whether or not the results of desegregation
in those public schools in those cities was substantially as you
have described it In Louisville, Kentucky.
A. It has been my observation that they follow the same general pattern
of gradual changing from white schools to integrated schools, and
then more or less back toward de facto segregation again.
Q. Mr. Milborne, after your years of experience with this problem of
desegregation, have you reached any conclusion as to why we have
this problem with the Negroes in a mixed school?
A. Well, from my observation and the study I have done, I am (R-388)
convinced that the problem is caused by mate racia l differences.
Q* Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. LEONARD:
Q.’ Mr. Milborne, you have given us a description essentially of what
has happened to the scholarship standards of the white student. In
your observation of the schools in the City of Louisville, would you
say that with respect to the Negro students who moved over into
290
Male High School that they were becoming better educated than
they had previously?
MR. B E L L : Gould wek ask that this be carried on in
something of the manner of a professional court hearing and the
lawyers not lead this witness, who obviously knows his lines very
well? They have been leading right along, and counsel for inter-
venors now is probably giving us a probably classic example of a
leading question.
THE COURT: Y es, that is leading.
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, the gentleman i s ------
THE COURT: — Rephrase the question.
MR. LEONARD: I will withdraw that question and r e -
frame it.
Q. Do you have any fam iliarity with the Negro students who came over
to Male High School? Did you observe their academic progress?
A. Yes. (R-389)
Q. Do you have any basis at all for determining whether or not that was
greater or lesser progress than they had previously made?
A. I do not.
Q. In your opinion and under your observations, did they get a better
education by transferring to Male High School?
A. I do not see how they were improving educationally because, by and
large, they had come from rather excellent schools.
Q. Are you saying that Negro schools of Louisville were also excellent
before 1954?
Yes, s ir . My observation is that they were considerably above the
291
average.
Q. Would you say they were above the average, or would you say that
that average was above the figure, type of performance which you
have described in Male High School after desegregation?
A. I'm not sure I get your question.
Q. You stated, I believe, that the Negro high schools of Louisville
before 1954 were excellent academically? Is that correct?
A. I stated that.
Q. Would you say that they were as high or higher than the academic
standard of Male High School after desegregation?
A. I don't have sufficient evidence to give you a valid answer to that
question.
Q. Do you have an opinion?
A. It is my opinion that the educational opportunities of the (R-390)
Negroes who came to Male High School are not improved by their
coming to a desegregated school.
Q. Thank you.
THE COURT: Any cro ss examination?
MR. B E L L : No, we arenot going to offer any cross
examination of this witness; and as to the previous witnesses, we
object to all of the testimony introduced and move to strike on the
basis it is totally irrelevant to the only issues which the courts
have time and time again indicated are before this Court in this
type of action, and that is whether or not the schools of Jackson,
Mississippi, are segregated. The situation in Louisville, there
fore, is irrelevant.
292
Moreover, the testimony of this witness could be expect
ed, and from what I understand from leaders in Louisville, his
position is well known. —
MR. WATKINS: - - Your Honor, we object to his testify
ing into the record m this manner, stating what he knows about
this witness.
MR. B E L L : I think I can —
MR. "WATKINS: - - Well, I'm going to object to your
testifying what you have been told about this witness in Louisville,
Kentucky. That is highly improper.
MR. B E L L : I'd prefer you wait until I finish my objection.
THE COURT: Very well, Gentlemen.
M r. Jordan, will you read the last objection?
(The objection stated by M r. B ell was read by the court reporter)
(R-391)
THE COURT: I will exclude it from consideration as
having any valuation, any probative force, one way or the other,
but I will let him state it for the record, and I overrule the ob
jection.
MR. B E L L : I was trying to make two points: one, that
the situation in Louisville on the issues in this case is totally
irrelevant for any purpose; second, that the Louisville desegrega
tion effort over the past few years has been more or less of a
model, in which those who are proponents of desegregation - and
there are many - feel that Louisville is an excellent example,
while other people who feel Louisville is one more example of the
inefectiveness of desegregation as improving the overall educa
293
tional situation — I was pointing out that this witness is generally
known as one of those who opposed it; and therefore, for that ad
ditional reason, the testimony is irrelevant to the Issues before
this Court.
THE GOURT: I will overrule the objection of counsel for
plaintiff and overrule the motion at this time to exclude this te sti
mony, and I will disregard his rem arks as to what the position of
this man was, whether opposed or favorable or what-not; but if he
has any rebuttal testimony he can put on, of course, he can put
that on at that tim e. But his statement as to what is well known,
I cannot regard as being testimony.
You may step down.
(Witness excused)
(R-392)
MR. CANNADA: If the Court please, the intervenors
have a witness that must leave shortly after lunch, and it is r e
quested that they put their witness on out of order. We have no
objection if it meets with the approval of the Court.
THE COURT: Very well.
MR. LEONARD: At this time I call Dr. R . Travis
Osborne.
MR. B E L L : Before the examination starts, let me make
an objection for the plaintiffs to the testimony of this witness, in
sofar as it is aimed at supporting the contentions of the intervenors.
We feel these contentions have been raised before, have been pass
ed on by the courts, and have been not approved.
If you will pass on that objection, I would like to make
294
another one.
THE COURT: You wanted to say something further?
MR. B E L L : Y es, Your Honor. Moreover, this particu
lar witness has testified in some of the other efforts to show that
Negroes are inferior and that segregated schools are justifiable
under tile constitution; and in an effort to save the time of this
Court, plaintiffs would move that the testimony that he has provid
ed earlier be admitted in this case and spare us all the long hours
of repetition which otherwise would be inevitable.
THE COURT: Well, I will overrule the objection and let
(R-393)
the witness testify because they are entitled to make their record.
It may be at a later date I would exclude It, but he is entitled to
get it into the record, and in order to keep my rulings as I go I
will overrule the objection.
DR. R . T . OSBORNE, called as a witness by the Intervenors and hav
ing been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. LEONARD:
Q. Please state your name.
A. R. T . Osborne.
Q* What is your position?
A. Professor of Psychology.
Q. Where ?
A. University of Georgia.
Q* Do you hold any other position with that university?
A. Director of Student Guidance Center.
295
Q. For how long have you been there ?
A. I've been there since 1937.
Q. What are your academic qualifications, Doctor?
A. Undergraduate work at University of Florida; graduate work
through the PHD at the University of Georgia.
Q. And what was your doctorate taken in?
A. Educational psychology.
Q. Have you worked in that field since that tim e?
A. With the exception of four years during World War Two. (R-394)
Q. I wonder if you would raise your voice a little ?
Are you a member of any professional societies?
A. American Psychological Association; ooutheastern Psychological
Association; and Georgia Psychological Association.
Q. Are you a licensed psychologist?
A. For the State of Georgia, yes_
Q. Have you published any professional works in your field?
A. Yes, I have, several.
Q. Would you state the nature of those publications, generally, giving
us any illustrations you wish?
A. In general they have to do with evaluation of achievement, mental
ability, graduate students, public school children.
Q* Anything on testing?
A. Mostly have to do with mental measurement or psychometrics.
Q* What does the word "psychometrics" mean?
A. Mental measurement.
Q* And that is of an individual or a student or people generally?
296
A. It may be of an Individual or a group.
Q. What form s of measurement are there which can be taken? What
form s of mental measurement can be made with any reasonable
reliability?
A. The most reliable are the individual intelligence tests.
Q. For what is that a predictor?
A. It predicts best scholastic achievement or school type achievement
and learning. (R-395)
Q. Does it have a high or a low correlation with subsequent scholastic
achievement?
A. It is probably the best index of later scholastic achievement as
measured by public school grades.
Q. Is there any way also of measuring the achievement, as such?
A. Yes. The usual standardized test of the three R 's , reading,
arithmetic, language skills.
Q. Gan these achievements be broken down in the testing process at
all? In other words, can you take various components of a per
son's learning and test them separately?
A. A person's achievement, yes. You mean reading?
Q* Yes.
A. Arithmetic and language sk ills? Y es.
Q. And even within those, is it possible to break them down any
further?
A* Yes. You lose reliability when you break them down i to sh orter--
Q* To what extent can you measure the subsequent achievement
against a person's original aptitudes as shown by an itelligence
297
test?
A. I don't understand.
Q. To what extent. You stated there was a correlation between scho
lastic achievement and the figures gotten on intelligence tests.
How do you determine that?
A. It is statistical process of relating the predictor or the ability
scores to a later c r ite r io n achievement score. (R-396) Could be
school grades or could be test scores.
MR. LEONARD: At this time I would like to hand to the
Court and have marked as intervenor's exhibit a statement of the
qualifications of D r. Osborne and of his professional publications
In the field of testing; and I offer D r. Osborne as an expert in the
field in which he has just mentioned his qualifications.
THE COURT: Let it be marked and received In evidence.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenor's Exhibit No. 1)
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
be inspected.)
Q. Have you ever taught in any public schools?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you had any educational experience with classes beyond the
public school level?
A. Yes.
Q* What is the total length of your teaching experience at this point?
A. From '36 until the present, except for four years I was in the Navy.
K I said 24 years, would that be approximately correct?
A. That would be, approximately.
298
Q. In the course of your work at the University of Georgia, have you
been called upon to make any tests on a broad scale of city system
public schools?
A. I have been invited as a consultant to participate in the kind of
activity you mentioned.
Q. What city or c ities? (R-397)
A. Savannah, Georgia, Is one.
Q. Will you te ll me what your function was with respect to the testing
of the children in Savannah, Georgia?
A. Mainly consultant to the superintendent, prinicpals, and the advis
ory committee on the evaluations, to help them plan and Imple
ment a longitudinal testing program for the children in the county.
Q. What is a longitudinal testing program?
A, Well, an on-going program which would be repeated every year,
rather than just a single cross-sectional program given one time
and then used and not repeated the following year.
Q. Would it follow the same children through the various years?
A. It may or may not. For example, some schools would test a lter
nate grades every year. Eventually they would test the same
children, but it may or may not.
Q. What test did you recommend?
A. I didn't recommend. The school system selected and agreed upon
the testing program for this county.
Q* You participated In the discussion?
A. That's right, and advised.
0.* What test was selected?
A. The California test battery, achievement and mental ability.
Q, Would you describe that to us for a moment?
A. It 's a standard paper and pencil group test of achievement in the
basic areas - - reading, language skills, arithmetic, and a test of
mental ability. (R-398)
Q. When you say it is a general or standard test, do you mean it is
used on any scale broader than Savannah or the State of Georgia?
A. It is a national test, standardized on a national norm.
Q. When you say "national, " "standardized, " what do you mean by
that?
A. The test has been given to a large number of people throughout the
country, and from the results normative data have been established.
Q. Are the normative data based on all persons who have taken the
test or based upon a particular local test, as in Savannah?
A. No. The normative data are representative of the nation as a
whole, if that is claimed by the test publisher.
Q* Did you participate at all in the training of the teachers who make
the tests, or make the test yourself? Did you take any part in
your capacity as advisor?
A. I participated in the training of teachers who adm inistered the
tests, yes, s ir .
Did the teachers administer the tests?
A. Yes.
Q- Over what period of time ?
A. Well, the program was begun in April of *54.
Q- Is it continuing today?
299
300
A. Yes.
Q. Have the resu lts of those tests been made available to you?
A. They were, yes. (R-399)
Q. Have you considered or studied or written or done anything with
those resu lts?
A. Yes.
Q. What have you done ?
A. A summary of the findings was published, without identifying the
school system.
Q. I show you at this tim e, Doctor Osborne — Allow me to have this
marked for identification.
(Same was marked as Intervenor's Exhibit No. 2 for Identification)
Q. I show you Intervenor’s Exhibit 2 for Identification, which is dated,
purports to be a monograph entitled ‘R a c ia l Difference in School
Achievement," by R . T . Osborne, and ask you if this is the study
to which you have just referred ?
Yes, that is .
Q* And this study is your work?
A. Yes.
Q. And it is based upon test results which have been made available
to you?
A. Yes.
MR, LEONARD: I offer the study into evidence at this
time.
THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.
(Intervenor’s Exhibit No. 2 for Identification received in evidence)
301
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Gourt the original is to
be inspected.)
MR. LEONARD: At this time I would like to put on the
stand, without introducing in evidence, certain pages of (R-4Q0)
this report, which we have photographically enlarged.
If you would step down from the stand, please.
(Witness steps down)
Q. Can you identify the chart which is presently on the ease l?
A. This is a chart from the monograph previously exhibited.
Q. Will you te ll us what it states or shows ?
A. This is Figure 1, showing the average grade placements earned on
California Reading T est by white and Negro pupils —
Q. Raise your voice.
Q,. This is Figure 1 from the Monograph, showing the average grade
placement earned on the California Reading T est by white and
Negro pupils tested in grades 5, 8, 10 and 12.
Q. Would you te ll us what is meant by "Vocabulary"? And "Compre
hension? "
A. Vocabulary is a sub-test that merely reflects a child's knowledge
of words. Comprehension is his ability to understand written
material, his understanding of written m aterial.
Q. Would you te ll us what the distances or shapes of the lines show
that you have drawn on the chart?
In the f ir s t place, identify the lines. What are the four lines you
have in each case?
A* Well, the solid line is white boys, the dotted - - heavy dotted line
Is white g irls; Negro boys, (Indicating) and Negro girlsN
Q. Now, will you tell us what the chart shows? summarize for us
what each of the three boxes shows?
A. It shows the children tested originally, in grade 6. The white
children were achieving about at normal grade level, and the
(R-401)
colored children In grade were on Vocabulary somewhat above
the 4th grade level.
This is easier to understand from one of the tables, but
graphically it is shown here. A difference of about a year and a
half in reading vocabulary achievement.
Q. Now, does the distance between the upper and the lower sets of
lines indicate an achievement difference between the white and
Negro children?
A. Yes.
Q. And does that difference — is that difference constant throughout
the years in which tests were made?
A. It is obvious from the graphs that there appears to be a widening
of that difference.
Q. Does that indicate a difference in rate of progress or rate of learn
ing with respect to vocabulary?
A. I would interpret it that way, yes.
Q- Your top one is the 12th grade?
A. Yes.
Q* Your difference in the 12th grade Is greater than your difference
in the 6th grade?
A. Yes.
302
303
Q. Is the same true of Reading Comprehension?
A. Yes. The hump in the curve is a little different place, but the
overall picture is the same.
Q. Now, the upper two lines are white boys and g irls , and the lower
two lines are Negro boys and g irls?
A. Yes. (R-402)
Q. And you have the same divergent pattern in Reading Comprehension
as you had in Vocabulary?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you have the same total pattern?
A. Well, the total is the composite of these two.
Q. Dr. Osborne, if you would slip that to the back, and take Figure 2,
which follows it. Would you explain Figure 2 for us?
A. The same legend is used at the bottom of the page. This is a test
of arithmetic, arithm etical reasoning and fundamentals.
Q. What goes into Reasoning?
A. Problem-solving.
Q. And Fundamentals is what?
A. Simple number combinations, adding and subtracting.
Q- In this particular chart, are the Reasoning and the Fundamentals
the same? In other words, is the pattern formed by the progress
of the white and Negro children the same for Reasoning as it Is for
Fundamentals?
No, there is a slight difference. I don’t know how to account for
that, but the pattern This hump in the curve could be an artifact
of poor test articulation or something, but anyway the curves are
304
not Identical.
Q. As the test resu lts go, are your differences in Reasoning greater,
less than, or equal to your differences in Fundamentals?
A. By inspection I would say the difference in Fundamentals is(R-403}
greater.
Q,. And is your rate of divergence during the school years the same
or different?
A. It would appear to be different.
Q. And they diverge more broadly on Fundamentals than they do —
A. Yes.
Q. Now, go to Figure 3. What does this chart show?
A. This is an average intelligence grade placements earned on C ali
fornia Mental Maturity T est by white and Negro pupils tested in
grades, 6, 8, 10 and 12.
Q. Now, is this the intelligence test you told us about previously for
predicting scholastic achievement?
A. That’s right.
Q. Would you describe the results which the chart shows?
A. The test is broken down into two parts: a Language section and
Non-Language section.
Q. Can you explain those?
The language section usually involves problems of vocabulary,
questions involving vocabulary, and mental reasoning involving
words. The non-language section, as It Indicates, does not in
volve the reading skills.
Q* How do you test if it doesn’t involve reading skills?
305
A. Picture problems, space problems, perceptual organization, and
that kind of thing.
Q. Does this have any relation to the type of thing we call (R-404)
cultural and non-cultural?
A. If you could tag it, this would be more cultural than this (indicat
ing). This does involve language, vocabulary, and this is the non-
cultural, but s till the child has to be able to use a pencil, for ex
ample.
Q. Are the patterns in Language and Non-Language the same, as your
chart shows them?
the difference
A. No. The Language goes — / seems to be greater here, and the
boys and g irls seem to show greater differences on the Language
section. In general, the boys do better on the Non-Language se c
tion than the g irls ; the g irls generally do better on the language
skills.
Q. Now, as between the white students and the Negro students, do you
have the same pattern?
A. That’s right.
Q. And that is shown in your total on the chart?
A. Yes, but not to a great extent. I mean, these are more apparent
than rea l, I would say.
Q* Now, would you te ll me, you stated that tests of mental maturity
could be used to predict scholastic achievement. Would you say
the tests which you show on Figure 3 would be a reasonably accu
rate predictor of the results shown on charts 1 and 2?
A* Yes. The correlation, I'd say, between this test and the others.
(R-405) 306
Q. Do they demonstrate to any extent a pattern?
A. Yes, they do, but you would naturally expect, this test of mental
maturity, you'd expect a pattern, to find the same pattern here as
you would with your achievement.
Q. Does the difference in mental maturity increase with age?
A. According to the figures here shown, there is an increase, yes.
I would say yes.
Q. Have you previously testified that the achievements diverge more
with age?
A. That is correct.
Q. Is that a correlation between the two ?
A. No, that wouldn’t be a correlation, but that would indicate there Is
a sim ilarity between the two, but not necessarily a correlation.
Q. What are your overall conclusions in this study at this tim e?
A. They are indicated in the monograph.
Q. Well, without having you read them, if you will take the stand
again . . . .
Number one: How many children approximately are in
volved in this test?
A* It varied from - — I think at the beginning there were over three
thousand. I don’t remember the figures. I would have to look at
the numbers.
Q* You have a chart?
A* Yes. (R-406)
Q- Let me repeat the question. How large a student body was used In
making these tests?
307
A. In "54 there were 1558 white children in the 6th grade, 932 Negro
children in the 6th grade;
1206 white in the 8th, and 697 Negro in the 8th;
and 10th grade, 919 white children, and 460 Negro.
Q. Can you summarize for me in round figures?
A. About 4 ,040 .
Q. About 4 ,000 total. Over how long a period were these tests made?
A. Now, that didn't involve - - I mean, this study didn't involve all of
those children, because some of them dropped out and transferred
and moved into other schools, and those things. These children
given on the chart, the children who were actually examined in all
four years, the number is considerably sm aller, because —
Q. Because of drop-outs?
A. Because of tran sfers, and some children were retained and weren’t
tested in the same grade, and that type of thing.
Q. So that your total number here according to the chart is about 750
or 800?
A. That's correct, children who were tested at the four successive
years starting at the 6th and going to the 12th.
Q. Over what spread of years — just four years on this?
A. Six years. '54 to ’60.
Q« Six years. And these tests were given over that spread? (R-407)
A. That’s right.
Mr. Osborne, I ca ll your attention to Plaintiff's Exhibit 1 in this
action, Answers to Interrogatories of the Jackson School Board,
containing a series of tables in answer to Interrogatory 5.
If you will look at those, please, and I will ask you
whether you have seen those tables before?
A. Yes, I have seen It.
Q» Have you considered the result shown In those tables in comparison
with the work you have done in Savannah?
A. Not statistically , but I have reviewed them.
Q. Would you say that they show the same or substantially the same
pattern, or different patterns?
A. Although the tests were given at different times by different exam i
ners, in general the trend is the same; the same conditions ob
tained here.
Q. Is this true both as to mental maturity and as to the achievement?
Or just one?
A. It would be both, although the tests are not exactly comparable.
Different tests , but the picture is the same.
Q. Dr. Osborne, are you fam iliar with the results which were r e
ported by the Mobile school system and put in evidence in the
Davis case?
A. Vaguely fam iliar; not as fam iliar as I am with this.
Q. Have you considered those to the same extent as the Jackson - - -
(R-408)
A. — as the Jackson, yes.
Do they show the same pattern?
A. Very little difference. Again the functions of the type of tests,
rather than any
Q. Are the differences within normal spread, or do they show different
types of — . In other words, - - - .
308
309
A. The trends are the same.
Q. Do differences exist in a ll of them?
A. Yes.
of
Q. Are these differences approximately/the same score?
A. The magnitude of the differences is the same, I would say. Rough
ly the same. Perhaps not the same for every grade, but in gener
al the same.
Q. Are you fam iliar with the test results which were reported for the
City of Charleston in the State of South Garolina and put in evidence
in the Brown case?
A. Yes. Again, vaguely.
Q. On the same basis?
A. That’s right.
Q. Have you considered those in term s of these differences?
A. Yes.
Q. And are they the same or different?
A. The Charleston data appeared to be greater. I mean, the differ
ences appear to be greater than those in the other three studies
mentioned.
Are you fam iliar with the report that was made on the Atlanta
schools, D r. Osborne, by the educational testing (R-403)
service ?
A* Yes. I am fam iliar with the charts, the general appearance of the
results.
Q. Would you say that those have the same degree of difference or less
or more or any?
310
A. If 1 rem ember correctly , the Atlanta data were made to compare
schools, rather than by achievement areas for children. I have to
admit — If I could fam iliarize myself or see the data, I might be
able.
Q, Let me read you the following, D r. Osborne, and ask for your
opinion:
"Average scores of Negro pupils fa ll progressively
further behind the national average and the averages for white
Atlanta pupils as they advance from primary grade through high
school."
Is that a statement that is constant with what you have
previously testified?
A. Yes.
Q. Next paragraph:
"In reading, the difference between average scores is
about one grade at grade 3; nearly two grades at grades 4 and 5;
nearly three grades at grades 6 to 8; and over four grades in
English at grade 1 2 .11
Is that constant with what you have previously testified?
A- Yes, it follows. (R-410)
Q* I continue:
"In arithm etic, the difference between average scores Is
less than one grade at grade 3;. about two grades at grades 6 to 8;
and over four grades in mathematics at grade 12. Negro pupils
tend to do better in arithmetic than reading at all grade levels.
They do very poorly in English at grade 12. "
311
Is that sim ilar to or different from the results to which
you have testified this morning?
A. Similar to it. May I ask., is that from the Atlanta report?
Q. That is from the Atlanta report.
I will be glad to mark this in identification if the plaintiffs
want.
Q, Who is the author of that report?
A. Dr. Warren Finley supervised it. It was prepared by the Educa
tional Testing Service, Princeton.
Q. Do you know of any other study which has been made of the achieve
ment and mental maturity of Negro children in Southern schools?
A. Recently Kennedy published a report out of Florida State.
Q. Will you please identify him for us?
A. I am trying to reca ll his given name.
MR. LEONARD: Let me have this marked for identifica
tion.
(Same marked as Intervener’s Exhibit No. 3 for Identification)
Q* I show you Intervenor's Exhibit 3 for Identification, which purports
to be a monograph of the Society for Research in (R-411) Child
Development, "A Normative Sample of Intelligence and Achieve
ment of Negro Elementary School Children in the Southeastern
United S ta te s ,11 by Wallace A. Kennedy, Vernon Van De R iet, and
James C. White, J r .
I ask you whether that Is the study to which you have just
made reference?
A- Yes, that is right.
312
MR. LEONARD: At this time I would like to have the
witness identify and offer in evidence just certain pages from the
report. I offer in evidence the title page, the acknowledgment
that the research was supported through the Cooperative Research
Program of the Office of Education, U. S. Department of Health,
Education, and W elfare, and pages 82, 84, 86, and 110 of In ter-
venor's Exhibit 3 for Identification.
THE COURT: Let them be received in evidence.
(Said pages of Intervenor's Exhibit No. 3 for Identification were r e
ceived in evidence)
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
be inspected.)
Q. Would you please refer to Table 45 at page 82 of that report, and
if you would, step down from the stand, and we have a photographic
enlargement on the easel.
Would you please state to us what the various columns
mean?
A. This is a table from Kennedy's revision, or normative data for the
new Stanford-Binet test. He administered this test to a large
number of Negro children in the Southeast, with the resu lts shown
here. (R-412)
In the column representing Age, the number of children
tested here. This is the age in months of the child (indicating),
and this is the mental age in months as determined by the tests ,
and this is the difference in months here (indicating).
Q ' The difference between what?
313
A. Between the expected here (indicating) and the achieved here.
Q. When you say the "expected," you mean the chronological age?
A. That's right, of an average child at the age the child was tested.
Q. Do I understand Well, is mental age and chronological age
the same thing?
A, No. Chronological age for test purposes is merely the age at which
the child took the test.
Q. What is the normal mental age for any given chronological age?
A. Normal mental age —
Q. — For any —
A. —- Would be the same.
Q. It would be the same. Any difference in mental age and chronologi
cal age would be what?
A. If the mental age is greater than the chronological age, It would
indicate the intelligence quotient above 100. If it 's below, it would
indicate to that extent below.
Q. Can it be measured in term s of months or years as a difference?
In other words, can mental age be established?
A. Sure, mental age.
Q- Can the difference between the two be taken? (R-413)
A. That's correct. That is what Kennedy has done here.
Q* And does your column difference in months express that figure
which you have just explained?
A. By the way, this is not my table. I mean, it 's from the monograph;
it is Mr. Kennedy's.
Y es.
Q. As you understand the column entitled "difference in m onths."
A. That's correct.
Q. Difference in mental age and chronological age?
A. That's right.
Q. Is it ahead or behind, in term s of mental age?
A. In each case , with one exception here, the chronological age is
greater than the mental age. This, I think, is at the five-year
level an artifact — - Well, it could be a sampling accident or
something e lse .
Q. How many people were in the sample at five years?
A. Only 19 children at that age.
Q. Is that a reliable sample for statistical purposes?
A. Not when — At six years, we have 227. I think that is better.
Some selective factor was at work there we don't know about.
Q. Now, who were the subjects of this test, as the study indicates?
A. The Negro children in the southeast.
Q. About how many? Do you know?
A. Fifteen hundred or so. That's about right.
Are there differences between mental age and chronological
(R-414)
age constant?
A. No. It is cumulative.
Q* What is - - -
A. Well, at year level six, the difference is five months. At year
level ten, it is seventeen. And I think the same argument that I
five,
have made here for the sm all difference at year level, /the sm all
number, would also hold for this year level thirteen, where the
314
315
difference is out of line.
Q. Now, at the age of six where you say there is a five month differ
ence, this would mean a mental age of five years and — ?
A. Seven months.
Q, At the age of seven, what would the mental age be?
A. 6 .3 .
Q. And at the age of eight?
A. 7 ., rounding off.
Q. What?
A. I say at the age of eight, rounding this off, it would be 7.
Q. In other words, that is almost one year behind at the age of eight?
11.6 months?
A. Yes.
Q. And in term s of years, how far behind at nine?
A. One year, two months.
Q. And at ten?
A. One, five. And one, six, A year and a half.
Q* And at eleven? (E-415)
A. Eleven? That’s what I said. At eleven, a year and a half at
age eleven.
Q* And eleven?
A. That's what I said. A year and a half. That's 18. —
Q* The difference In months is —
A. Oh, no. No, that's 18. Excuse me. I didn’t have my glasses on.
Eleven Is 22 months. That's correct.
Q* Close to two years?
316
A. That’s right.
q . And twelve. What is the difference at the age of twelve?
A. 35 months, or almost three years.
Q. Is that chart consistent with the results you have reported this
morning on the various southern cities we have been discussing?
A. The differences are not very great. I would say yes.
q. Does it follow the same general pattern?
A. Yes.
Q. Does this chart, taken as a whole, indicate Negro students in the
southeastern United Jta tes lag behind the norm by an increasing degree
over the span of school years?
A. Prom Table 45, that would appear to be so.
Q. Does it appear like the figures you have dealt with in Savannah and
the ones you have seen on Jackson, Mobile, and the other c ities?
A. Restate the question. (R-416)
Q. q . The question was, does this table show an increasing lag in the
Negro student in the southeastern United States as he progresses
upward through the school years?
A. Lag in mental age, as measured by this test. Now, lag in achieve
ment, I think the others we were talking about in achievement.
Q* Well, le t’s stay here with mental maturity. What does mental
maturity measure?
A. Ability to do intellectual work.
Q* In other words, in term s then of ability to do work, D r. Osborne,
is there an increasing lag over the period of school years?
A* From this table, there is .
317
Q. Now, Is that situation the same for the study you made in Savannah?
A. Sim ilar, yes.
Q. And the figures which have been put in evidence here for Jackson?
A. Yes, sim ilar to that.
Q. And Mobile and Charleston?
A. The figures are sim ilar, that is correct.
Q. If you will turn to the next chart there for a moment.
Would you explain that graph, please?
A. This is a graph of Figure 2 from the Kennedy monograph, showing
the IQ distribution of Negroes and the normative sample. This
curve represents the obtained data from the Kennedy study, and
this curve represents the normative sample (E-417) superimpos
ed on the same base line with the same scores represented.
Q. When you say the data from the Kennedy study, your f ir s t line
represents the scores of the Negro children?
A, That is co rrect.
Q. Distributed against a normal curve?
A. Yes.
Q. Or what type of curve?
A. Yes, this is the normal curve drawn on the same base line of the
Kennedy.
Q* What do they ca ll the area covered by both curves? Is there any
overlap between the two?
A. That is not the definition, co rrect definition. I mean, this area
here at which the curves overlap is not the usual or conventional
use of the term "overlap ."
Q. Does it have a term , when measured against the normal?
A, It slips my mind right now II It does.
Q. What does this chart show in term s of the preceding chart?
A. The same.
Q, The Negro students are up to, ahead of, or behind the normal?
A. Behind the normal group. I think this is a graphic representation
of the other data we just saw.
Q. Are the Negro figures given there In the normal distribution form ?
In other words, is the curve which they form a normal distribution
type curve?
A, It is the usual bell type curve, but it is peaked more than (R-418)
than the normal curve here.
Q. Why is that?
A. I can only guess. I don’t know anything about —
Q. Do you have an opinion?
A. Yes. I would have an opinion that the lower range of the tests here
would seem to . Well, the test doesn't effectively measure
below the IQ’s 40, 50, and so forth. I would say that chance plays
a great deal in giving scores in this neighborhood from 40 to 60.
Q* And that has tended to pack it up with —
A. I would say that, yes, but I don’t know that. I would hazard that as
a guess.
Turn to the next chart.
THE COURT: At this point we will take a ten minute
recess.
(Court was recessed for ten minutes)
319
After R ecess
(MR. LEONARD:}
Q. Dr. Osborn, would you please turn your attention to Table 71 of
the Kennedy study, a likeness of which is presently on the easel,
and te ll me what those figures show?
A. This table shows the correlation between the .Stamford-Binet mental
age and achievement as measured by the California Achievement
Test, correlation between Reading on the California, and Mental
Age measured by the Binet is .58 , arithmetic; .6 4 , language; .70
- - - and Battery, X assume, means the (R-419) the combination of
these grades — would be .69 .
Q. What do those figures mean?
A. That the relationship between intelligence is measured by the —
mental age as measured by the Binet, and achievement as measur
ed by the California Achievement Test, is high average. I mean,
you can predict the one from the other fairly accurately.
Q. Are all the correlation figures substantially equal, or do they show
any real variation?
A* No, there is not much difference. I doubt if the difference is
significant. It is more apparent than real.
Q.* Thank you. P lease turn to the next chart. You have now on the
easel what table number?
A. 68.
Table 68 of the Kennedy study. Would you please te ll us what that
table shows?
A* It is a capitulation of the California Achievement T est grade place
320
ment at each grade level by all of the sub-tests, giving the number
of children in the 1st, 2nd, and through the 6th grades, both male
and female.
Q; Does it show any differences between the grades where the Negro
children tested and the norm?
A. The 1st g ra d e —
Q. — Well, In general.
A. Well, in general, I would say the same information that we have
reported for other studies, I think we could find here. Maybe
with some slight differences, but the trend (R-420J and the mag
nitude of the differences would be the same.
Q. Substantially the same as in the other cities?
A. As the others.
Q. I would like to show you at this time a graph of Table 45 from D r.
Kennedy's monograph, and ask whether the curve which is shown
there approximates the curves which you previously testified to in
. connection with Savannah?
A. Yes. The Information here is sim ilar. Maybe in this area back
here, slightly different, but the green is the norm and the red is
the Negro group, from the Kennedy study.
Q* On Savannah and the other studies, where would the white line
have been if D r. Kennedy had tested It and it remained In this
pattern? In other words, was your white line in Savannah at or
above the norm?
A* Approximately the norm.
Q* In other words, your measurement here then of your Negro against
321
the norm is a reasonable comparison of Negro against white in
this area?
A. Yes, although he doesn't do that here. But I think the norm -—-.
Q. I would like you to look at this time at the graph of the reading
grade placement from Table 68 which you have Just been looking
at, and again I ask you if this is approximately the same trend
which was shown in the graph of reading placement in Savannah?
A. Sim ilar, but I think the differences here are somewhat slight, less
than Savannah, but the trend is the same. iR -42l)
Q. Look at the one behind that and te ll us what that show's.
A, This is language grade placement. It shows about the same thing
except as we found in the other studies, the girls on the language
achievement approximate the norm more nearly than the boys,
but the average of those would be about the same.
Q. There is s till a divergence on the whole between the Negro tests
and the norm ?
A. That is right.
Q* Which increases over the grades.
A. From 2 to 6, yes, from the Kennedy data.
Q. Now, take the next one.
A. Arithmetic grade placement from the Kennedy data.
Q* Is that approximately or substantially sim ilar to the one you tested
in Savannah?
A* Again yes.
Q* Now, would you contrast the difference in this chart with the d iffer
ence which was in the immediately preceding chart on language?
322
I notice that the differences appear to be different on the chart.
Could you explain it?
A. The differences appear to be somewhat less for arithmetic than
for language achievement.
Q. Is this the same as you have found in Savannah and elsewhere ?
A. Yes, except for arithmetic fundamentals. I think we had an in
crease, a greater difference, for the arithmetic fundamentals.
This is not broken down by fundamentals and (R-422) reasoning.
I think the difference was slightly greater. But there again it 's
just —-
Q. Does it tend to fa ll into a pattern by subject m atter? Is there con
sistency to these figures in that respect?
A. The overall trend is the same, I think.
Q. Taking them by subjects, is there to any extent a pattern which is
formed by these different city resu lts?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you. If you will take the stand again .. .
(Witness does same)
Q. In connection with your Savannah study, D r. Osborne, did you
make any attempt to match white and Negro students of the same
mental maturity or IQ?
A. Yes. A proportion of the study was that.
Q* What was the point of this study? What were you trying to achieve?
A* The purpose was to compare achievement after having matched the
children in term s of age and mental ability.
Q* Will you tell me more about how you matched them?
323
A. It was an experimental matching; from the large group we were
able to find children who were of the same age and equal mental
ability in both groups. Through the sorting of the cards we were
able to match them in that respect.
Q. Did you match them in pairs?
A. Yes.
Q. How many pairs did you have? (R-423)
A. I 'll have to look at the report.
Q. Well, in a rough amount, subject to checking the report —
A. Yes.
Q. — approximately how many?
A. Over a hundred pairs of these boys and girls.
Q. And in each pair, the Negro child and the white child who were
matched had the same IA at the beginning of your tests?
A. Yes.
Q. Dr. Osborne, you were about to answer the question, what was
the purpose of matching these pairs of children in the Savannah
school?
A. To determine the achievement, variations in achievement, after
the groups had been matched for mental ability and age.
Q* Was this an effort to determine whether they stay the same there
after or change?
A. I had no preconceived ideas, but it was Just to watch the groups as
they progressed through, from the 6th grade to the 12th grade.
Would you please step down again to the easel and identify for us
the photoenlargement which is now on the easel?
324
(Witness does same)
A. This Is from the monograph Figure 4, average intelligence grade
placements.
Q. As appears in Intervenor's Exhibit 2, your monograph?
A. Yes. Average intelligence grade placements earned on California
Mental Maturity T est by groups of white and Negro pupils (R-424)
equated on the basis of intelligence quotients earned at the 6th
grade level were matched at this point and examined repeatedly—
By the way, the numbers are here. 59 pairs of male students
and 81 pairs of fem ales.
Q. 131 pairs of students. Were these all taken from the same p er
centage of their respective groups?
A. No. In order to match them at this level here, If you will follow
the Kennedy curves, we had to find a selection of children that
would fit the two c rite r ia — that is, ago and mental ability. They
were not from the same sections, as pointed out in the monograph.
Q. Would you explain this graph to us. Why do all the lines start at
one point?
A. That is a condition of the experiment. They were matched at this
point In the 6th grade.
Q* In the 6th? Does the single point then mean that they were exactly
the same in the 6th grade?
A. Yes.
Q* And what is your next test point after the 6th grade?
A. 8th.
And are they still together at the 8th grade?
325
A. No. They diverge by maybe a half-grade or so.
Q. Approximately half a school year apart two years la ter?
A. Y es, guessing — and the figures are in the monograph — ■ but
graphically it looks like about a half a grade.
Q. When did you next test them? (R-425)
A. 10th grade.
Q. And what was their relative position at that tim e?
A. It looks to me, about two years' difference In mental maturity at
the 10th grade level.
Q. What was the conclusion of this study on matched pairs in the
term s of mental maturity?
A. That students matched at the 6th grade, by the time they had pro
gressed to the 12th grade, their differences were again apparent,
although not as much as if they had not been matched at the 6th
grade.
Q. Well, the trend?
A. The trends are the same as found in the unmatched, but the magni
tude is somewhat less .
Q,. Well, Is the magnitude less because they started together?
A. Yes. Well, we artificially put them together.
Q* In other words, if we take a Negro and a white student who have the
same IQ, at a given tim e, will they have the same IQ two years
later?
A. These didn't. I couldn't generalize from the data.
To the extent that you have tested the pairs, what is your conclu
sion?
326
A. That the answer would be no, they do not have.
Q. Does it tend to increase or stay the same or what, after it has
diverged?
A. In general?
Q. Is there an increase in difference or a decrease? (B-426)
A. Oh, the difference tends to increase with increasing age.
Q. Until maturity, or past?
A. Well, I can't go beyond grade 12. That is age 18.
Q, Take the next chart and identify that.
A. These are the same children as we examined them on reading com
prehension.
Q. These are the matched pairs again?
A. That’s right.
Q. They start out the sam e, and you are measuring them in what?
Reading?
A. Vocabulary, comprehension, and total. That’s right.
Q. Now, for the children that had the same IQ in the 6th grade, did
they have identical vocabulary capacities at that tim e?
A. Not exactly. Fairly close, but not exactly.
Q* Did It stay the same thereafter or did It change?
A. The difference tended to increase from the 6th to the 12th grade.
Q* Is that also true of reading comprehension?
A. Yes, but to a slighter extent.
Q* K you will turn to the next chart and identify that.
The same children. Now we are talking about arithmetic achieve
ment.
327
Q. Do they start approximately the same in arithmetic reasoning and
fundamentals?
A. Very little difference there. The difference there is again more
apparent than rea l. That is almost the same. But as they CR-427)
go through the school system, the reasoning difference tends to
widen.
Q. Now, does it tend to widen at the same rate substantially as the
reading did in the last chart, or at a different ra te?
A. I believe there was a difference. There is a difference in the rate
of change.
Q. In other words, they changed differently for arithmetic than for
reading?
A. And from reasoning to fundamentals.
Q. Dr. Osborne, have you at any time had occasion to read the pub
lished D allas school tests?
A. As appeared in U. S. NEWS AND WORLD REPORT?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Are those resu lts constant with the results you have mentioned for
the other cities here today?
A. Slight if any rea l difference.
Q. Do you know of any studies which have been made outside of the
South in areas of integrated schools?
A. I am fam iliar with a report of the Washington, D. C ., schools.
Q* The report to which you refer has been marked in evidence here as
Defendant's Exhibit 20. T ell me what the figures in Defendant’s
328
Exhibit 20 show in term s of what you have already testified to.
A, Basically the same things, if I reca ll, give or take for a grade
here or there, but basically the same trend. (R-428)
Q. In other words, the figures given in the D. G. report are sim ilar
to the figures in the southern schools?
A. Yes.
Q. In term s of the se trends which we have been discussing. I would
like to read to you at this time what purports to be a portion of an
article from the New York Tim es, reporting the school resu lts in
the Harlem schools of New York.
(Same was marked as Intervenor's Exhibit No. 4 for Identification)
Q. Reading from Intervenor's Exhibit 4 for identification, which pur
ports to be an article from the New York Tim es of October 22nd,
1963:
"The pattern in the central Harlem schools shows that 20
percent of the third grade pupils are below their grade level by
about a year. Seventy percent of sixth grade pupils average two
years below their grade level, and 85 percent of the eighth graders
average three years behind.
"The usual measures of retardation are reading and arith
metic achievement. However, I . ... scores, now widely discredit
ed as an objective measure of intelligence, also show a marked
decline."
If that statement is true, D r. Osborne, would It be constant
with the figures which you have testified here to this morning as
being the typical pattern of Negro and white children?
329
A. Yes.
Q. And in your opinion would that change and decline which is reported
in the Tim es be one inherent in the children or (R-429) one r e
sulting from the schools?
A. It Is not the schools. I mean, the schools are the same.
q . Have you made any studies, D r. Osborne, in the pre-school field
to determine whether these trends to which you have testified did
or did not, do or do not exist before the child enters school?
A. I am in the process of making studies of that type now, but they
havenot been published.
Q. Have you come to any conclusions sufficient to form an opinion?
A. Tentative and cautiously, I would say.
Q. What were the nature of the studies you have made?
A. The same kinds of measures were conducted with pre-school ch il
dren and offered as a tentative conclusion, that the conditions ob
tained in the 1st, 2nd, and third grades also show up at the pre
school level.
Q. What is your total conclusion as to the relationship, if any between
the pre-school period and the school period in term s of these
trends? Is there any difference during pre-school?
A. I would say no. The trend seems to be the same from pre-school
through the 12th grade.
And the differences which have been shown to increase on these
charts are differences which exist in the children at the time they
first come to school? (R-430)
A. They are apparently that, that's right.
330
Q. Are these differences to which you have testified significant in an
educational sense?
A. For instructional purposes, yes, I would say so.
Q, Gan they be attributed to chance?
A. No.
Q. Is there any possibility that these differences which are shown in
each of these charts in the cities simply is an accident?
A. Not as a sampling accident. I think the consistency with which all
data — .
Q. Would it be true or false to say that essentially what your figures
have shown today is that Negro children tend to lag by about one
year In four?
A. Yes, in school-type achievement.
Q. In school-type achievement. That’s what I'm taking about.
A. Yes.
Q. Is it true or false that a difference in rate of learning progress
exists even with children of the same IQ when we take a Negro and
a white child?
A. My evidence would tend to support that.
Q. And that there is a difference of learning ability between the two in
terms of subject m atter?
A. Kennedy studies and others demonstrate that, yes.
Q* And are they consistent with your studies in the field of achieve
ment?
A* Yes. (R-431)
How many years did you state that you have taught?
331
A. In public school, one year - —
Q. Well, all together.
A. Twenty-four, wasn’t it?
Q. Twenty-four. Based on that experience, as well as on your pro
fessional qualifications, D r. Osborne, would you say that separate
educational treatment is or is not desirable for Negro and white
children?
A. I would say it is .
Q. I'm talking purely on educational grounds.
A, Yes, P ractica l education.
Q. In the major tests you made in davannah, did you take any p re
caution to avoid the possibility that the teachers were below stand
ard in the Negro schools? Did you make any check at all on that?
A. As part of another study we did study the teachers’ qualifications.
Q. What was your conclusion on that?
A. The teachers, in term s of recency of training and advanced de
grees in term s of salary, in the Negro teachers were better p re
pared and better paid than our white teachers.
Q. In your opinion then, would it be proper to attribute the differences
you have testified to to the teachers?
A. Not if the usual c rite r ia of teacher qualifications is met - - - that is ,
advanced training, advanced degrees and salary.
other words, you have identical or better qualifications?
(R-432)
A. Yes.
(ch ---A s far as your tests could show?
A* Yes.
332
Q. In your opinion, D r. Osborne, what would happen to the achieve
ment level In the white schools of Jackson if group integration
were to be undertaken? I ’m talking now only about scholastic
achievement.
A. And this is an opinion.
Q. This is strictly an opinion.
A. Well, statistically , to add the achievement levels of the two groups
now and average them, you would, of course, have a lower
achievement level.
Q. Suppose you held to the same norms which are now used in the
white schools, what would happen?
A. Well, the failure rate for Negro children would probably increase.
Q. What if you dropped the achievement norm of the school to the rate
previously used in the Negro school?
A. There would be - - - Well, no failures. I mean, limited or very
few failures for the white children.
Q. What would be the level of education?
A. It would strike an average of the two groups thrown together.
Q* Well, I ’m talking now about dropping the grade requirements, the
norm requirements on a grade basis to the ones previously used
entirely in the Negro schools.
A. Well, the standards would be lower If you lowered the (R-433)
expectations.
Q. Mr. Pittman asks to what extent you tested the teachers in Atlanta?
A* That was done by the National Teacher Examination, sponsored by
the Educational Testing Service. I did not do that.
Q. And that was the basis on which you drew your conclusions?
A. That’s right. Y es.
Q. Thai is a ll I have.
333
THE COURT: Any cro ss examination by plaintiff?
MR. B E L L : We have no questions. We will just renew
our motion we made at the opening part of the testimony to strike
the testimony as irrelevant to the issues in this case.
THE COURT: Well, I will adhere to my ruling.
MR. CANNADA: F or and on behalf of a ll defendants, we
would like to adopt the testimony of D r. Osborne as the testimony
for and on behalf of the defendants.
THE COURT: Very well.
And I will overrule the objection for the reasons I gave
heretofore.
You may step down.
(Witness excused)
(R-434)
MR. PITTMAN: I would like to call M r. Milborne back
for a question or two since the testimony of D r. Osborne.
THE COURT: Very well.
WILLIAM 3. MILBORNE, recalled as a witness and having previously
been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. PITTMAN:
Q* Mr. Milborne, I believe you were qualified as an expert educator
earlier this morning.
Is that true, Your Honor?
334
THE COURT: Yes, s ir .
Q. In 1954, when the Supreme Court rendered its decision In the
famous Brown case, you were then principal of a high school In
Louisville, Kentucky?
A. Yes, s ir .
Q. When that decision was rendered in which it was held that segrega
tion injures the personality of Negro children, were you in sub
stantial agreement with that holding or assumption at that tim e?
A. Yes, s ir , I was in agreement with it.
Q. Now, in 1956 when the integration fir s t took place in Louisville,
were you still of the opinion that segregation injured the personal
ities of the Negro children and that the children should be inte
grated?
A. I was still of the opinion that integration was better than (R-435)
segregation.
(-l> Now, in the light of your experience with integrated schools from
1956 to 1962, do you still believe that integrated schools are better
than segregated schools for Negro children and for white children?
A* No, s ir . From my experience I have reached the conclusion that
the integration that we were undertaking was in the name of a
social revolution that was actually injurious to children.
Q* Injurious to all children or just some children?
A* Injurious to all.
Q* Is that conclusion based both on your experience and your present
knowledge as an educator?
A* It is based on my personal experience in one school.
335
Q. How much integration took place in Louisville alter 1956 in your
school?
A, As I stated earlier —
Q. Proportionately in numbers.
A. A relatively sm all amount at the beginning, increasing to approxi
mately 20 percent over a period of time in that particular school.
Q. I ask you to state whether or not the educational standards of that
school went down in the same proportion that the number of colored
students increased in the student body?
A. Gradual erosion was about in the same proportion as the increase
of Negro students. (R-436)
Q. About what period or what time between 1956 and 1962 did you
come to realize from your experience as a school principal and a
school man, educator, that a mistake had been made?
A. Well, after about some two or three years’ experience with it, I
came to the conclusion that we were exploiting the children in the
name of a social revolution — that is, that we were assuming
that there was equal ability, and moving along that line, and that
put some children, Negro children, in a position they should not
have been put in.
Q* You heard the testimony of D r. Osborne. The effect of it was that
Negro children fa ll behind white children in school approximately
one year in every four. Does that accord with your observation,
substantially, as principal of Male High School in Louisville?
A* In general, yes. Of course, as to the fall-back, I can't document
it exactly as he had. it.
336
Q. As an educator, If you should assume that what D r. Osborne said
Is true, that Negro children fa ll behind white children approximate
ly one year in every four, I will ask you to state to the Court what
effect that would have upon the educational program where sub
stantial numbers of normal children — that is , those who make
normal progress according to Caucasian standards — are forced
into the same rooms and under the same teacher with children who
are falling behind one year in every four. What is the effect of
that? CR-437)
A. I think we would be doing a great disservice to the children.
Q. Would you injure the personality of all the children in that c la s s
room?
A. You’d injure the personality of many.
Q. Of many?
A. Yes.
Q. State, as an educator, the difference between teaching a c lass
where all or where substantially all proceeed at approximately the
same rate and teaching a c lass where one portion of it, a substan
tial portion of it in number, fall behind in gross amounts each
year. What Is the difference from a standpoint of a teacher?
A* Well, it is pretty generally known and accepted that where you
have a widespread of ability in a given class that the teacher's
time is not used in the best manner, for the simple reason that
she has got to make planning and exceptions for this level, for
this level, and for that level, instead of being able to concentrate
on a homogeneous group.
337
Q. Then as a resu lt; if a parent has a child he wants to move along at
a normal rate , and that child can move along at a normal rate, if
integration continues in Louisville or if it is instituted in Jackson,
will it be necessary for that parent to send that child to a private
school?
A. Well, the word ‘‘necessary" has a number of interpretations. —
Q. Would it be advisable, then?
A. Would probably be advisable if the parent could afford it to CR-438)
put him in a private school, or in a school all Negro or all white.
Q. When a group of children in the classroom are failing or tend to
fail and they drop behind and they realize they can't catch up and
keep up, what is the resu lt?
A. Well, I think failure is not a desirable thing. Failure is fatal. It
does something to the child's ego, his personality, to fa il.
Q. Does that child, in your experience as an educator, try to compen
sate in some way for that deficiency which he knows he has and
which he knows his schoolmates know he has?
A. Many of them do.
Q. And what form does that take frequently?
A. Well, it could take various form s. With one pupil it might be just
a huge indifference to the whole tiling. "So what? Who c a re s ? "
To another it might take a different form. He might withdraw into
himself and become shy, or withdraw from school. With others it
might compensate for that by showing off, being the worst boy or
the worst g irl in the c lass.
Q* Anti-social conduct?
338
A. Not necessarily anti-social. I t 's just a show-off.
Q. What effect does that have on the progress of normal children,
scholastic progress?
A. Well, the total effect is just a lowering of your school morale and
your school achievement. (R-439)
Q. Now, one other thing: Are you as an educator acquainted with the
statistics as to the number, relative number, of graduates of
southern Negro high schools who qualify for college, as compared
with the relative number of graduates of integrated high schools in
the north who qualify for college entrance?
A, I have seen statistics along that line.
Q. Do you believe them to be credible?
A. To the effect that the opportunity that a Negro has of going on to
college if has graduated from an all-Negro school is much beyond
that of a Negro who has graduated from an integrated school.
Q. Now, you said "much beyond." Gould you give us in numbers
what your opinion would be?
A. It has been some years since I heard this, but at that time, as I
recall, the statement was that the opportunity open to a southern
Negro high school graduate was about seven to one of getting into
college over that of a graduate from an integrated school.
Now, in conclusion, I will ask you, based upon your knowledge as
an educator and your experience and your efforts to make integra
tion work in Louisville, can you point to any area in which you be
lieve or you can state that integration has helped any school chil
dren as a group since 1954?
339
A. I can’t point to anything specific, (R-440)
Q. But you can point to specific examples of injury or harm to the
educational program? Is that right?
A. Yes, s ir , I can.
Q. That is all,
THE COURT: Any questions by other defendants?
MR. WATKINS: No, s ir .
THE COURT: Any cross examination?
MR. B E L L : No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down.
(Witness excused)
MR. GANNADA: Our witness would be D r. Kirby ‘Walker,
who will be a rather lengthy witness. V/ould you like to start be
fore lunch or after lunch? We would prefer to put him on after
lunch and go through without breaking.
THE COURT: Well, is he here?
MR. CANNADA: Yes, s ir .
THE COURT: We might start out for about ten minutes.
KEtBY P . WALKER, called as a witness in his own behalf and having
been duly sworn, testified as follow s:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. CANNADA:
Q* State your name to the reporter, please.
A- Kirby P . Walker.
Q,. Are you the same Kirby P . Walker who previously testified (R-441)
In this case, as a defendant in this case?
340
A. Yes, s ir .
Q. Mr. W alker, for whom do you work?
A. Board of Trustees of the Jackson Public Schools.
Q. How long have you worked for the Board of Trustees of the Jackson
Public Schools?
A. Since August, 1935.
Q. In what capacity?
A. In August, 1935, I was the assistant to the superintendent of the
schools. In December of 1935 I was elected acting superintendent
of schools, and since January of 1937 I have been superintendent
of the schools of this d istrict.
Q. What is your educational training, Mr. Walker?
A. I graduated from the Hattiesburg High iSchool in 1913. I was grad
uated from Southwestern in Tennessee in 1922 with an AB degree.
I was graduated from the University of Chicago with an MA. degree
in 1934. I have attended George Peabody College in Tennessee,
and have worked at the University of Southern M ississippi and the
University of M ississippi.
Q. Do you belong to any educational associations?
A. I am a member of the M ississippi Educational Association; the
National Educational Association; the -American Association of
School Administrators. 1 am a past president of the Southern
Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools; I have been a
member of the advisory committee to the U. S. Commissioner of
Education; I have been chairman of (R-442) the advisory com
mittee to the Educational Testing Service for National Teacher
341
Examinations. I think that’s sufficient.
THE COURT: I believe here Is a very good place to stop.
I believe we will have re ce ss until one-thirty.
(Whereupon the court was recessed until 1:30 P .M .)
After R ecess
THE COURT: Very well, you may proceed.
(Mr. Cannada continues:)
Q. I believe when we recessed for lunch you were In the process of
giving us the professional organizations to which you belonged and
the offices to which you have been elected. Would you continue
that? Also, any training that you have had pertaining to the educa
tional field.
A . Yes, s ir . With respect to my employment record, I was first
employed as a teacher of grades eight to twelve at the Forest
County Agricultural High School from 1922 to 1925. I was super
intendent of that school from 1925 to 1932. In 1932 I was appointed
State supervisor of Agricultural High Schools and Junior Colleges
of the State Department of Education of M ississippi. In 1934 and
1935 I was a state director for the emergency educational program
sponsored by the State Department of Education, in which there
were some 2,000 teachers employed and a staff of assistants to the
director. I have been a visiting lecturer at the University of
(R-443)
Houston at Houston, Texas. The same at the University of Texas.
I have served as a member of the test administration team of some
sixty persons, as I reca ll, who administered tests in a statewide
survey of public education in Mississippi about 1926 or 27. This
342
study was directed by D r. M. V. O'Shea, who was the Dean of
Education at the University of Wisconsin. I was chairman of the
Research and Service Commission for three years for the Southern
Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools, doing research for
the organization to aid it in its work in accrediting institutions of
higher learnings at the secondary level in the State of M ississippi,
in the southern states. I am a member of the National Society for
the Study of Education; the honorary educational fraternity, Phi
Delta Kappa. I was cited by the University of Chicago as an alum
nus who was recognized as a useful citizen. Southwestern in Tenn
essee conferred the doctorate on me for my service in public edu
cation. I was a member of the committee known as the Mid-
Century Committee on Outcomes in Elementary Education, which
was a joint project of the United States Office of Education, of the
Educational Testing Service of Princeton, New Jersey , and of the
Elementary School Principals Association of the National Educa
tional Association. This project was financed by the R ussell Sage
Foundation, and its report was published.
, I think this very well completes the resume of my work
(R-444)
experience.
Q* Mir. Walker, relating your experience, you indicated that you were
a part of a team back in 1926 and 1927 that made a survey of the
educational facilities and training in M ississippi by M r. M. V.
O'Shea? Is that co rrect?
A* That is right.
A* I hand you a book and ask you if you recognize this.
343
(Hands to witness)
A. This is the publication by the B . B . Jones Fund, titled A STATE
EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM AT W O R K , and I am identified on page
16 as a member of the team of educators who administered the
test in the State of M ississippi.
MR. CANNADA: If the Court please, we would like to in
troduce this entire book into evidence, with the right to withdraw
the original and place a copy in the record.
THE COURT: Very well. That could be done.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 21.)
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
be inspected.)
Q. Mr. V/alker, I hand you this book which has now been marked as
Exhibit D -21 to the testimony of the defendants and ask you when
this was published and the name of the publisher.
A. This was published in 1927 by the Bernard B . Jones Fund.
Q. "Would you te ll the Court a little of the history of that study and
survey, and in general the substance of the findings?
A. Governor Whitfield in 1925 went to Madison, Wisconsin, and p re
vailed on Dean O'Shea to organise a study to be made in this state
as to the ability and the achievement of its (R-445) youth in pub
lic schools and in colleges and universities.
Q* Can you te ll us who M r. O'Shea was?
A. Dr, O'Shea was the Dean of Education in the School of Education at
the University of Wisconsin. The study took probably a year, as
I recall. It involved prim arily the measurement by tests, group
344
tests, of youth of the state, both Negro and white. These findings
are recorded here, charted, and there are some recommendations
and conclusions as to improving the program of education in the
State of M ississippi, as I reca ll.
Q. Mr. W alker, you have heard the testimony of M r. Barker concern
ing the tests that have been given to the Negro and white pupils of
the Jackson Municipal Separate School D istrict, have you not?
A. I have.
Q. I ask you in general do the findings that are reflected in D r. B a r
k er 's charts and reflected in the pupils of the Jackson Municipal
Separate School D istrict parallel or are they sim ilar or dissim ilar
to the findings made by this study back in 1926, insofar as the
distinctions between the Negro and white pupils is concerned.
A. There are tables in the O'Shea report as to the distribution of Neg
ro pupils with respect to IQ in each grade of elementary and high
schools. This has to do with mental ability to do the things that we
do at school. And I see here the median score, IQ, ranges from
60 to as high as 86 from grades one (R-446) to twelve, The aver
age or the median for 5,000 randomly selected Negro pupils, being
75.
There is also a table showing the distribution of white pupils
in respect to IQ in elementary and high schools. This involves
some 23,000 pupils randomly selected, whose median IQ 's from
grades one to twelve ranged from 92 to 101, with a median for all
of 95.
There likewise is a table showing achievement of Negro
345
high school seniors In math, science, in history and social studies;
and the same is true for white pupils, and the disparity there is
somewhat in keeping with the disparity that we find between white
and Negro pupils and the mental ability and achievement. And
these data seem to confirm and support the evidence that was sub
mitted by D r. Barker yesterday as to the difference in mental
ability and in academic achievement of pupils in this particular
school system.
Q. I ask you, M r. Walker, does the information that is contained in
this O'Shea report insofar as the mental ability and achievement
of the Negro and the white pupils back in 1926 conform in general
with the relative abilities between the two races as reflected by the
charts heretofore introduced pertaining to the pupils of the Jackson
Municipal Separate School D istrict?
A. My answer to that is yes, recognizing that the instruments that
were used for testing 37 or 38 years ago have been improved some
what, but the norms that were established then (H-447) for the
nation and the norms that were established for the state with r e
spect to the two groups, and the norms that we have today for the
nation and for our d istrict, the d istrict here, are very sim ilar.
Q. Mr. Walker, I believe you stated that you have been superintendent
of the Public schools of Jackson for — since 1937?
A. That’s right.
Q* I believe it has also been brought out here in your previous testi
mony that in 1954 the school board turned over the question of tak
ing enrollments and making temporary assignments of the pupils of
346
this d istrict to you. W ill you explain to the Court when this was
done, how it was done, and, if you know, why it was done?
A. Y es, s ir . In August, 1954, after a conference with counsel for the
board of trustees in which, as I understood it, there was some
doubt, or maybe — using slightly different language — there
might be a cloud over the constitutional provision of this state for
the operation of separate schools. It was counsel's advice to the
board that since this might not be a legal matter any longer that it
would be wise for the superintendent, as professional educator and
as professional advisor to the board of trustees, to be fully and
wholly responsible for admitting, assigning, pupils on an annual
basis.
This, the board acted, striking from Its records all pro
visions for the zoning of pupils by school attendance (R-448) areas,
and left the superintendent in the position of having to devise a -way
to get pupils In school In a reasonable manner, organised and
ready for instruction. I had to draw on my background of seven
teen years of working with people in this community in a rather
intimate way as a school man, having worked with teachers, know
ing them personally, knowing literally thousands of patrons, having
been in classroom s on an average at least one day a week visiting
classes, interrogating pupils, chatting with teachers, asking prin
cipals about the school operation, discussing the achievement, the
performances, the general tone of the school, knowing something
of the social, cultural interests of parents, the aspirations for
their children, and being concerned, as I am sincerely concerned,
347
and also concerned as a public school administrator to discharge
my duties to the very best of my ability. I tried to devise a way to
to assign children to a school that would insure for them, all chil
dren, white or Negro, with the resources that we had, so that as
little time would be lost as was possible and we would be involved
in the instructional program without any undue delay.
Therefore, on rny own responsibility, knowing where
schools were situated, knowing generally the number of pupils
that there were or are, were in the community at that time, and
having available to us a biannual survey of the number CR-449) of
educables in the d istrict as to residence, age, grade level, I made
a public announcement, giving directions to parents through the
press that their children should be taken to a school as directed,
where they would make application for admission and where they
would be temporarily assigned, subject to permanent assignment
by the board of trustees at a subsequent date.
At the same time, I instructed principals of schools, both
white and Negro, that the pupils who were directed to their build
ings were to receive applications and to assign the child or chil
dren to the respective schools on a temporary basis.
This generally was complied with. The provision was also
made and announcement simultaneously provided, copies of which
were placed in the hands of principals and generally made known
to anyone who was interested in it, that at the staff level provision
was being made to receive any requests for a change or changes of
assignments of pupils that parents might deem advisable. This
348
was to be effected by making a rather simple request: naming the
child, his age, his grade, the name of the parent, and stating the
reason why the parent v/as seeking request of the temporary as -
signment to be changed to another school.
These requests were made by Negro pupils at the adminis
trative offices of the school d istrict, which are situated at 1060
Lynch Street, and for the other pupils at the adminis-CR-450)
trative offices at 662 South President.
Normally we receive some three, four, five hundred r e
quests for changes of assignments, and usually, assuming the re a
sons submitted are valid and not just simply a matter of preference
but have a basis for good judgment, if we had teachers and c la s s
room facilities to accommodate these changes and it did not create
an undue demand administratively on us in accommodating such
changes, these were honored.
This work is usually attended to in about two or three days
following the actual opening of school, and I ’d say within a week’s
time parents have been advised in person as to whether or not their
requests for changes have been approved or not, and at a regular
meeting of the board of trustees some days later we have been mak
ing report to the board as to the assignment, temporary assign -
nient, of pupils, following which the board has made assignments
permanent.
This procedure continues throughout the year for any new-
coming pupils or pupils who may change their residence from one
Part of the school d istrict to another.
349
I believe this fairly well describes what was done when we
were given the responsibility of assigning pupils on an individual
basis.
Q. As I understand your testimony, M r. Walker, this procedure was
prescribed by you in the summer of 1954 for Hie school (R-451)
session '54-'55 , is that co rrect?
A. That is right.
Q. Has that procedure in substance been followed ever since?
A. It has. It has been followed with very little change, other than an
nually we have been compelled to make some changes in our In
structions as to where children should go to — or the parents of
the child should go to make application for admission, that being
due to two conditions: one, the d istrict has grown considerably in
area and in population, school population; and, second, we have
had some build-ups In some areas where, as new facilities were
made available, we were able to make a better assignment or dis
tribution of pupils to schools.
Q* Has at any time since the summer of 1954 to date the board of
trustees Interfered in any way in your conduct of your responsibili
ties under this delegation to you of taking these applications and
making the temporary assignments?
A. No, the board has made no Inquiry, has not Interfered, and lias not
been concerned, other than to act as we have recommended each
month on the recommendation that assignments that have been
made temporary are now prepared or ready to be marked or made
permanent.
350
Q. Mr. W alker, In the handling of these several hundred, as you say,
requests for transfer each year, do you explain to the parents why
a particular transfer is or is not approved, or why it isn 't approv
ed if it isn 't? (R-452)
A. If there has been a request for a change of assignment which we
have not been able to honor, we have reported to the parent that
his application could not be honored and we have stated the reasons
why. We have often asked, "Would you like for us to hold this r e
quest in suspense so that, If at a later date the enrollment of the
educational situation at that school became different from what It
was that time, we might then rev lev; it and make the change?"
Q. Mr. W alker, in the approximately ten years in which this procedure
has been in effect, has there been a single pupil or a single parent
to appeal to the board of trustees from the temporary assignment
previously made by you or under your supervision?
A. There has been none.
Q. As I understand your testimony, the board of trustees has never
actually passed on a protest or complaint from any pupil or parent
in this d istrict?
A* We have had no protest, we have had. no announced intention to pro
test; we have had some very earnest people who were very eager
to have the change in assignment made, but without exception,
when we revealed to them the actual facts with respect to teaching
loads and the ability to serve the child where he was then as com
pared to where they were asking to be transferred, they have
seemed to have been satisfied. I would say that this sort of
351
arrangement, in my own mind, was filled with possibilities of rea l
difficult school (R-453) administration. It has proved, surp ris
ingly to me, that it can be done and that people generally are very
cooperative; and this applies to all of them. We haven't really
had a serious problem with respect to the assignment of pupils as
we have directed. I can say to you that it perplexes some people;
they get annoyed because I can't tell them as of now where their
child will be attending school next September. As a matter of fact,
I don't know now and will not until shortly before the opening of
school.
Q. That answers my next question. As a matter of fact, as I under
stand your testimony, you do this each year independent entirely
of the preceding year? Is that correct?
A. That is co rrect.
Q. Ait what time during each year under your procedure will you en ter
tain any request for transfers or for assignment to a particular
school?
A. All applications are invited and are to be made if they are r e s i
dents of the d istrict and wish to attend the public school, during the
week immediately preceding the opening of the school session,
which, by board policy, is the second Monday in September.
Q* So that, M r. Walker, if any parent, white or Negro, of this d is
trict, if he should inquire of you prior to September of any particu
lar year as to where his child or children will attend school the
next year, what has been your answer?
A. My answer is , and has been for the past ten years, that
352(R-454)
provision will be made and announcement will be made for you to
make an application at a school, at which time you will make
written application for your child to attend, and he will be assigned
at that time, but until that announcement is made, I am not in posi
tion to advise where the child will attend school.
Q. Is the parent advised at that time concerning his right to make a
request for a transfer if he is dissatisfied with the temporary
assignment?
A. That question is often asked. "Suppose he is assigned to a school
that I don't want him to attend? I'd rather he attend another
school." we take the time then to explain that an opportunity is
provided for them to make written request, but until they have
actually made an application and until they have actually been
assigned — the child has been assigned to a school — we cannot
entertain applications for changes of assignment.
Now, there are two reasons for that. One of them is that
information is not available to us as to where we are going to di
rect them to go for their assignment - - that is , early. The second
reason is that many of the inquiries that we have early in the year
are by persons who may not even be in the school d istrict or may
be moving to other areas of the school d istrict or contemplating it,
and we can 't anticipate to that extent what our answer should be to
accommodate any number of requests that may not be too firm in
their original. (R-455)
Q. Mr. Walker, in the last ten years since 1954, has there been a
single exception to this procedure that you have stated, insofar as
353
waiting until the week before the opening of school and having
everyone make application and be temporarily assigned before he
or she has any idea where he or she shall attend?
A. None that I know of. You name the week, and it could be that in
the ten year period we may have had seven or eight days, but the
same procedure has been followed.
Q, This procedure is followed universally, for a ll parents and pupils
of this d istrict?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Nov;, you stated that in setting up this procedure you announced
publically through the press that certain students were to go to
certain schools to make their applications for enrollment and to be
temporarily assigned. In making that decision, did you take into
consideration the characteristics of the races , or the races them
selves, of the pupils of this d istrict?
A. Well, I was inferring that. If I did not make it clear in my earlier
statement - - - That I had personal knowledge of the operation of the
schools, the facilities, where they are, the teachers, their fitness
for their respective jobs. I knew of die academic performance of
pupils. I knew that as to white and Negro pupils as far back as
1927 when I was a member of this study team, testing them. I had
seen in the annual reports (R-456) of principals, supervisors,
directors of the school system reports as to pupil ability, achieve
ment, promotion. I had what I considered adequate professional
background to make a professional judgment as to the assignment
of all pupils.
354
Q, As I understand It, in making, issuing, your Instructions for the
making of the applications for admission and temporary assign
ment, you did have pupils of the Negro race make applications to
schools at which pupils of the white race did not make application,
and vice v ersa?
A. That is right.
Q. Did you give instructions to the principals or teachers of those
respective schools as to which pupils would be assigned to the
school that he or she was in charge of?
A. Yes. That was actually in form of a directive to a ll principals,
giving them Information, specific information, that white pupils
*
within certain prescribed areas as of that moment would be d irect
ed to certain schools; they would take their applications for ad
mission, and after receiving the applications, they would be a s
signed temporarily by the principal or the teacher, as we had in
structed. The same applied to Negro pupils.
Q. So that in making your temporary assignments, the race or the
characteristics of the race was a factor in the making of your de
cision? Is that correct?
A. It was the base of it. (R-457)
Q. Dr. Walker, would you explain to the Court why, in your judgment
as an educator, if there is any reason for, from educational re a
soning looking toward the education to be furnished to the pupils
of this d istrict, and in exercising your judgment in making the
temporary assignments - - - why you have taken Into consideration
the characteristics of these two races?
355
A. Well, if I might, I would like to make a h istorical comment or two
before answering that question specifically.
In this state nearly a hundred years ago following a period
of m ilitary occupation, a constitutional convention was held, the
membership of which was, as I would think of it, a new political
order. That convention had as one of its jobs devising a constitu
tion under the new day following the War Between the States, and
one of the sections had to do with education.
This convention was in session a number of days, and it
concluded that there should be separate schools for the white and
Negro races .
Q. What was the year of that convention?
A. 1868, and I believe the constitution was adopted in 1869.
This means to me, as I review it, that this was the idea of
the membership of that convention, which had. a number of Negro
citizens in Its membership. It was their idea that we should have
separate schools for the races. It seems to me it is a good idea,
and I think they were right. C.R-458)
Under that constitution in 1888 the people of this school
district determined for themselves that they would organize a
graded school system in what was then called a separate school
district. This provided for a common school board for the schools
in the d istrict, white and Negro. That arrangement for the admin
istration of schools remained in effect or has remained in effect
until this date.
Now, I mentioned earlier that in 1954 anew problem was
356
posed for the d istrict. Our board of trustees determined that in
light of the new order that had been given and its possible clouding
effect on the constitution of this state with respect to separate
schools, the superintendent should act professionally in this busi
ness of administering education in the assignment of pupils and
organizing pupils for instruction.
I have mentioned that I had background in this school sys
tem for that, and I have described what I have tried to do in the
administration of this program. I think it should be pointed out
that in this system there are thousands of children, that roughly
the ratio is 60 percent white and 40 percent Negro. This may vary
some one or two percent, but generally this is the pattern, for a
number of years. This d istrict has a sufficient number of white
and Negro pupils, it has a sufficient number of white and Negro
teachers, it has sufficient number of supervisory and administra
tive staff to give each race of children, based on their mental abil
ity, based on the performance record that we have known for years,
we have felt that CR-459} we had a very fortunate situation where
we were in a position to go right ahead with an instructional pro
gram that would be beneficial to both groups.
Let me be a little more specific. Teachers in their r e
lationship to the child who is assigned to him, or to them, is in
fact in loco parentis. When the 1st grade child comes to school,
he comes with roughly six years of previous learning, identifying
himself with his friends, selecting his associates, expressing his
preferences and letting them be known; he develops habits, he has
357
attitudes that have been given him by his parents and by his friends
and associates. We have assigned children to teachers who, in
place of parents, if you please, are ready, prepared, willing,
capable of serving that child as a parent and as a teacher while the
child is in the custody of the school. This is desirable.
As my form er distinguished colleague, M r. Jam es Gooden,
said yesterday — and I'm in agreement with him — that a child
must be made to feel at ease, be wanted, loved, to perform at his
best. This holds whether the child is white or Negro. Actually,
in the early years of school life, a teacher does many things, ad
m inisters to a child in many ways over and beyond that of simply
serving as a form al director of his learning. They help them in
toilet, they help them with their lunches, they help train them in
their moral values. And it seemed to me, and stiU seem s to me,
that (R-460) the teacher in his or her relationship with the child
should be one who understands the culture, who understands the
abilities, who aspires for that child as he would for his own child,
that his educational opportunities be good. This to me then says
that it would have been a mistake for me to have thought of any
thing else than to have assigned a child to a teacher where there
would be rapport and a good working relationship.
Let me go a bit further. —
Q* Let me interrupt at that point, D r. Walker. Of course, in the
first six years of the age of a child the school system as such has
no control over him at a ll?
A* None whatsoever.
358
Q. So that when he comes to school, a six year old for the f ir s t tim e,
you have to work with him and do with him as you get him and try
to give him the best education you can?
A. That is right.
Q. All right. Go ahead.
A. I was going to comment next that there is a partnership relation
ship or a reciprocal relationship between teacher and parent. I
am firm in my belief that there Is no parent, or there was no par
ent in 1954 and up until recently I knew of no sincere parent who
would have entertained the idea, or who did entertain the idea,
that his child should be placed in a different school situation than
to which we had assigned him; namely, that the Negro pupils ex
pected and their parents (R-461) expected to have them taught by
our capable Negro teachers, and the white parents expected the
same of their white teachers.
The point is that our local experience, our local facts, — -
and I ’m speaking for this d istrict — could not be ignored, and
had I disregarded the educational and the social facts that are
characteristic of white and Negro pupils, I would have been dere
lict in my duty to both groups, and injury would have come to both.
Q. Are you speaking in that regard with respect to the education of
these people?
A. I am speaking of education of children. That is our area of respon
sibility.
Q* Do you feel you are charged with the responsibility for the social
reformation of this area?
358
A. No, s ir . Our duty Is to conduct an educational program as p re
scribed by the state that will provide for children who enter the
schools opportunity to acquire knowledge, usable skills, good atti
tudes, and an understanding of moral values.
Q. M r. Walker, in connection with the education of these pupils,
would you give us a basic distinction between a pupil and a student?
A. We refer to children in the common schools, grades one to twelve,
as pupils, not as students. Students are persons - - - or we think
of them as individuals who are capable of independent study, who
can more or less on self-determination direct their learning.
Pupils are those who are actually (R-462) subject to direction,
discipline, management, and who are, as I said earlier, in a r e
lationship more like that of a child to his parents than as a matured
self-determining Individuals„
Q. As a matter of fact, M r. Walker, in the conduct of the schools
here in this d istrict, legally as well as practically, are you and
your principals and teachers serving in the place of parents while
the pupils are on the way to school, in school, and on their way
home?
A. That Is my understanding, and that is our direction to principals,
to teachers, that at the time a child leaves his home until he r e
turns at the close of a school day, he is under the teacher's charge
and our responsibility.
Q* Mr. Walker, even if this were not true legally, as a practical
matter would it be true?
A. Well, I think parents expect It of us. Right.
360
Q, In making your decision concerning the assignment of these pupils,
you have indicated you took into consideration the characteristics
as developed by the pupil, of the child, before he comes to the
school that he had developed over the six years before he starts to
school, and he presents himself for education, and you in the ex er
cise of your responsibility have tried to assign him to a school to
which he would get the best education which this d istrict was cap
able of giving him. Did you also take into consideration, or did
you not, the achievement and ability level as reflected by the r e c
ords of your d istrict? (R-463)
A. Y es, s ir . We have records sim ilar to those that were submitted
by D r. Barker that go back to 1950, 1940, and possibly earlie r .
While not in the same form, the general pattern of each of these
sets of records over a period of years is very sim ilar to that
which was submitted by D r. B arker, and, as I have indicated
earlier, consistent with the findings of the O'Shea study in 1927,
which covered the state.
Q. Mr. W alker, you have heard D r. Barker testify concerning the
various charts and graphs and information he has presented as a
result of the tests given in this d istrict, have you not?
A. Yes, s ir , I have.
Q. You were fam iliar with that information at the time It was compiled
by D r. B ark er?
A. That information is seen by me and submitted to the board of tru st
ees as a part of my responsibility to the board annually.
Q. And you had this information, or sim ilar information, available to
361
you in 1954 when you fir s t made the decision?
A. I did.
Q. — Concerning the assignment of these children?
A. I did, and prior to that also.
Q. And you have had the same information each year since?
A. Somewhat sim ilar, yes, s ir .
Q. Have you had anything in the information since 1954 that would lead
you to a conclusion that your judgment In this is wrong or even
que stionable ? (R -464}
A. There is no basis at all for me, acting in good faith as a person
responsible for the education of all the youth of this d istrict, to
modify the present plan of assigning pupils to schools.
Let me say here that the fact that there are differences
may not be a matter that any one of us wants to deal with or face,
but they are factual as we see them. I have many esteemed friends
of the Negro race. I served approximately 500 Negro teachers
and principals, supervisors. I serve also approximately 850
white teachers and principals and supervisors. I meet with teach
ers, I have advising groups of Negroes and whites, professional
and lay persons. This is not a matter for me to have animus
about, to be loud in talk. This to me is an educational problem,
one to be dealt with as objectively as I know how, as fairly as I
know how, which leads me to say that not only do I have an obliga
tion to a professional staff, I have an obligation to be fa ir to the
children and fair to the taxpayers who provide a program of educa
tion and facilities , I am a prudent person. We are in a state or
362
d istrict that's relatively not a wealthy d istrict nor a wealthy state.
I must, as a responsible, practicing school administrator, must
be intelligent and reasonable in trying to provide administrative
organization, personnel, and the use of m aterial resource so that
every child will find in the public education service in this d istrict
which is mass education, more than 35,000 (R-465) children
being enrolled in these schools — they must find — we must use
these resources so that they will find within these lim its their best
opportunities to develop themselves educationally.
Q. Mr. Walker, as I understand what you have said then, it is that
since this has been in effect for the last ten years and the respon
sibility has been yours, you have seen nothing from the educational
standpoint, achievement-wise or otherwise, from any other factor,
that would lead you to the conclusion that a change should be made
in these temporary assignments?
A. Well, in light of the experience that we have, the evidence that is
before us, I think we would be capricious in our action and on an
unsound basis if we had proposed to the board of trustees that it
modify in any way the organization and administration of schools
as we have been recommending.
Q. That is from the education of the children?
A. Correct.
Q. Mr. Walker, I want to ask you this:
In the performance of the exercise of your duties and
responsibilities, have you called upon the responsible Negro c it i
zens, as well as white citizens, to analyze this school system and
363
make recommendations and suggestions?
A. Y es. About three and a half years ago the Board of Trustees was
very concerned about the rapid growth of the d istrict, the Increas
ing tax ra tes , and the question as to whether or not the d istrict
would be able to maintain its educational (R-466) services at the
level that they were then operating. It occurred to those of us in
the administrative staff of the board of trustees that the best way
to look at that question was to actually make a comprehensive
study of the facility use and personnel use of the public schools of
this d istrict.
We accordingly made a recommendation to the board that it
establish an advisory body of lay citizens, one-third of whom
would be representative of professional business life of the com
munity, one-third of whom would be homemakers, mothers and
fathers, without regard to occupation or professional basis or
status, and the third be composed of persons in education who are
not necessarily members of the staff of the public school system.
This group of some 25 or 30 persons, as I reca ll, invited
approximately 90 white citizens, using the same general category
of representation as I described for the advisory body, and a sim i
lar committee of about 90 Negro citizens. The suggestions for the
membership of this committee came from persons outside of the
school board or outside of the school staff. An advisor, a consult
ant, was retained by the board to work with the study committee,
white and Negro, with membership of about 90 each, and to serve
as a consultant to the advisory body that would finally submit a
364
report to the board.
Now, your question was whether or not there was an
opportunity or had there been Negro and white citizens (R-467)
advising on the operation of the schools, I believe. Shortly after
this study was under way, it was concluded that they would be very
comprehensive in their work, and this applied to both the Negro
and the white study committees. They were given complete rein to
inquire into, v isit, inspect and evaluate any part of the school
operation, finance, facilities, personnel, pupil achievement,
accounting, or whatever they were interested in. This was done,
the product of which was a report to the board in due time I ’d
say probably a year later — advising the board on the best use
that it might make of personnel and facility and m aterial resource.
Q. As a resu lt of that study or any other studies that have been con
ducted, has there ever been a suggestion or a recommendation
that your procedure of mailing temporary assignments, talcing
applications for enrollment and making temporary assignments, be
changed in any way?
A. None whatsoever, by white or Negro.
Q. As a matter of fact, Is there any rea l distinction in this d istrict
between the facilities, the courses of study, or the courses offered
to the members of the white and Negro races?
A. I testified yesterday, I believe it was, that there was no m aterial
or substantial difference in program or serv ices, and I know c e r
tainly from a standpoint of board policy and intent of school admin
istration there is none.
Q, In other words, the facilities, course of study, and the program of
study is available to all, regardless of the group to which they be
long?
A. That is right.
Q. And are there any m aterial differences in the teachers between the
two groups?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Mr. W alker, you have heard the testimony of Mr. Barker to the
effect that from the mental abilities test it appears that the gap
between the white pupils and the Negro pupils widens as they pro
g ress, whereas by and large in this d istrict the achievement level,
while there is a substantial gap, remains fairly constant. You
have heard him further testify that it is his opinion that is a result
of a super or extraspecial effort on the part of the Negro pupils, in
that they are maintaining the same gap, even though their IQ or
their ability is falling off. Do you agree with that?
A. I agree with that, and I attribute that to a rea l earnest effort on the
part of teachers in our Negro schools to close the gap, so to speak,
or to overcome any limitation the child may have. I believe the
word that we would normally use to describe it would be that they
were over-achieving, the point being that they were achieving at a
better level or a better rate than we would normally expect, based
on their mental ability as revealed by the testing that has been used
heretofore. (R-468)
Q* I gather you are proud of that record?
A. I think it is an excellent record, and I think teachers are very
(R-468) 365
366
proud of it.
Q. From an educational standpoint, you think that is desirable?
A. That they improve?
Q. Y es, s ir .
A. I certainly do.
Q. If, many years in the future down the road, that gap should close
between these two groups, would that have any effect upon your
thinking as an educator?
A. Let me comment here, if I may. And I think I see some of this in
testimony I have witnessed here.
The debate between nature or nurture, as to which is the
prevalent factor, has been going on for some tim e. I do not pose
as a sociologist nor as a geneticist, psychiatrist, psychologist, or
biologist; I am a practical, practicing, school administrator. I
have been earnestly evaluating instruction; I have been personally
in classroom s; I'm not a desksitting superintendent. If the facts
change where we have a different evidence as to mental ability, a
different evidence as to achievement, with that information I would
be compelled by duty and by conscience to report to the board of
trustees and advise them as to the import of this in educational
organization of the schools for which they are responsible. (R -470}
Q. As I understand your testimony, your concern Is for the best educa
tion possible for the children of all races, and that is what you will
attempt to do, regardless of the social problem?
A. That is my duty.
Q- And that Is what you have been doing since you have had this
367
responsibility as superintendent of these public schools?
A. It certainly is, and win continue to be.
Q. And in your judgment as an educator, the assignment procedure
that is now being' followed and has been followed for the last ten
years is accomplishing the best education for the children of all
ra ces?
A. I believe it firm ly.
Q. Of course, throughout this d istrict, we have a number of schools.
W ill you give to the Court roughly the number of schools and the
total number of dollars invested in our school system ?
A. There are 51 school buildings; there are 36 which are attended by
white pupils and 16 of which are attended by Negro pupils. There
are approximately 35,000 pupils. The value of the school plant
will well exceed thirty million dollars, I believe. I'm not too
fresh on these figures, but that is an approximate valuation.
Q. You have heard M r. B arker, of course, testify to these charts
which show the amount — which show that the average achieve
ment of white students Is substantially above the national norm on
all the tests taken.
A. Y es. (R-471)
Q. You are fam iliar with that?
A. Yes, s ir .
Q. You're proud of that, are you?
A, I am. I ’m very proud of this school system. If I didn’t appear to
be too immodest, I might say I visited at schools all over this na
tion, I know a number of school men intimately, and as objectively
368
as I can be, knowing that I have a personal identity with it, and
discounting my value of that extent, I know of no school d istrict in
this nation that enjoys the good patronage, the excellent cooperation
of people in trying to provide for their young people, their c h il
dren, a good program of public education. I have no apology to
make for any part of It.
Q. Mr. W alker, are you fam iliar with the study that is made regularly
as to people over 25, the average years of schooling that they have
had?
A. Y es, I am.
Q. I hand you a booklet and ask if you recognize this?
A. This is the U. S. Census of Population, i960 , the United States
summary containing general social and economic characteristics
of the people.
Q. Now, Mr. walker, have you taken from that publication some in
formation concerning the years of schooling that has been com
pleted by adults 25 years and older in some of the larger m etro
politan areas of this country?
A. I have, and have had a chart prepared accordingly. (R-472)
Q. I hand you a document and ask if tills ls that chart?
A. This is .
MR, CANNADA: We'd like to put this into evidence.
We offer this as an exhibit to his testimony.
THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.
MR, B E L L : We will make the same objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Very well. I overrule the objection.
369
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 22)
(Exhibit Is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
be inspected.)
Q. If you will, M r. Walker, step down over this way, if you will,
please, and explain the significance of this to the Court.
(Witness complies)
A. This is a chart showing the educational characteristics of selected
large c ities from the 1960 U. 8. Census of Population showing the
median school years completed and the percent of persons 25 years
old and over completing high school or better. I selected these
cities as representative of large metropolitan cities of this nation
in the Midwest, E ast, and F a r West. In every instance we have
here a city which, compared to any city In M ississippi, is of great
wealth per capita and otherwise. I would like to read these In a s
cending order — that Is, starting with St. Louis, M issouri,
where the persons 25 years old and over in the 1950 census showed
median school years completed as 8 .8 years. Baltim ore, Mary
land, 8 .9 years; Louisville, Kentucky, 9 .3 years; Cleveland,
Ohio, 9 .6 ; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 9 .6 years; Detroit, Mich
igan, 10 years; Chicago, Illinois, (It-473) 10. years; Pittsburgh,
Pennsylvania, 10. years; New York, New York - - New York City,
10 .1 ; Washington, D. C ., 11 .7 ; Los Angeles, California, 12.1 .
These represents grades or years of schooling completed.
It is interesting to note that of the total population 25 years old or
over, in the city of St. Louis, M issouri, 26.3 percent of the popu
lation has completed high school or better. Baltim ore, 2 8 .2 per
370
cent; Louisville, 32 .1 ; Cleveland, 30 .1 percent; Philadelphia,
3 0 ,7 percent; D etroit, Michigan, 34 .4 ; Chicago, Illinois, 35 .2
percent; Pittsburgh, 35 .4 ; New York City, 3 7 .4 ; Washington,
D. C ., 4 7 .8 ; and Los Angeles, California, 53 .4 .
Q, While those could be shown on another chart, so the picture will be
complete will you tell the Court, if you know, the average grade
that has been completed by the adults of the Jackson d istrict 25
years and over ?
A. 12.1 years.
Q. In other words, in this d istrict, the average grade completed by
an adult 25 years old is 12 .1 grades? Is that co rrect?
A. That's right. And that Is an equivalent to the highest on this chart,
of Los Angeles, California.
Q, That compares all the way from 8 .8 of St. Louis, M issouri, to
In other words, the adults in this d istrict have completed more
form al education on the average than a ll these metropolitan areas?
A. Excepting Los Angeles. (R-474)
Q. Except Los Angeles, and it is the sam e?
A. The same. Equivalent.
Q. In other words, percentagewise — . Do you know the percentage
in this d istrict that has a high school degree or better?
A. I have it on the other chart. I don't reca ll. — 54 percent.
Q. That's compared with —
A. That exceeds every one on this other chart, selected large c ities.
Q. This ranges all the way from 26.3 in St. Louis, M issouri?
A. That's right.
371
Q. I hand you another chart and ask if you recognize this.
A. I had this prepared also.
Q. Is that a group of capital cities somewhat sim ilar in size to Jack-
son, containing the same information?
A. Not sim ilar size, but representative of capital c ities in the Mid
west, E ast, and South.
MR. GANNADA: We'd like to put this In evidence.
THE GOURT: Let it be marked and received in evidence.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 23}
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Gourt the original is to
be inspected)
THE COURT: And w e'll take a ten minute recess .
(Whereupon court was recessed for ten minutes)
(R-475)
After R ecess
(Mr. Cannada continues:)
Q. Mr. W alker, with reference to the schedule that has been marked
as Exhibit 23 to the testimony of the defendants, would you read
that to the Gourt, if you would, and give the explanation?
A. This is a chart showing the educational characteristics of selected
capital c ities , taken from the 1960 U. S . Census Population R e
port, and as with the other chart, it shows persons 25 years old
and over as to median school years completed and percent com
pleting high school or better. And these are also in ascending o r
der, starting with Nashville, Tennessee, which has an 3 .9 median
school years completed by persons 25 years of age and over.
Atlanta, Georgia, 10 ,5 years; Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, 10 .8 ;
372
Albany, New York, 10 .9 ; Springfield, Illinois, 11 .1 ; Columbus,
Ohio, 11 .2 ; Columbia, South Carolina, 11 .3 ; Lansing, Michigan,
11 .9 ; Montgomery, Alabama, 11 .9 ; Jackson, M ississippi, 1 2 .1 .
The percent completing high school or better for these same
capital c ities are as follows: Nashville, Tennessee, 29 .3 ; Atlan
ta, Georgia, 40 .5 ; Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, 40 .8 ; Albany, New
York, 42 .4 ; Springfield, Illinois, 44 .3 ; Columbus, Ohio, 44 .2 ;
Columbia, South Carolina, 46 .1 ; Lansing, Michigan, 49 .4 ; Mont
gomery, Alabama, 49 .1 , Jackson, M ississippi, 54 .0 . (R-475)
Q. Now, M r. Walker, do these percentages, with reference to this
exhibit and the preceding exhibit, include all adults 25 years old
and over, regardless of race?
A. They do.
Q. All right. In other words, it Includes members of both the white
and —
A. White and non-white.
Q. Nov/, do you have information as to the percentage of whites and
non-whites for these respective cities?
A. From the 1962 county and city data book published by the Bureau
of Census, I960 population, I have taken the percent of the popula
tion for each of these large cities and each of the capital cities as
to the percent of non-white in each of these.
For example, in St. Louis, M issouri, 28 .8 percent of its
population is non-white; Baltim ore, Maryland, 35 percent; Louis
ville, Kentucky, 18 percent; Cleveland, Ohio, 28.9 percent;
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 26 .7 percent; Detroit, Michigan,
373
2 9 .2 percent; Chicago, Illinois, 23 .6 percent; Pittsburgh, Penn
sylvania, 16 .7 percent; New York City, 14 .7 percent; Washington,
D. C ., 54 .8 percent; Los Angeles, California, 16 .8 percent.
For the capital c ities , Nashville, Tennessee, 37 .9 percent
population non-white; Atlanta, Georgia, 3 8 ,3 ; Harrisburg, Penn
sylvania, 1 9 .1 ; Albany, New York, 8 .5 percent; Springfield,
Illinois, 6 .8 percent; Columbus, Ohio, 16 .6 percent; Columbia,
South Carolina, 3 0 .4 percent; Lansing, Michigan, 6 .5 percent;
CR-477) Montgomery, Alabama, 35 .3 percent; and Jackson, M iss
issippi, has 3 5 .7 percent.
Q. So that with only rare exceptions, the notable one being Washington,
D. C . , Jackson has a larger proportion of Negroes percentagewise
than all of these c ities we have mentioned?
A. Atlanta, Georgia, I believe, and Nashville, Tennessee, have slight
ly larger percentages.
Q. And all of these capital c ities you have mentioned here i_ have
population in excess of 50,000, do they not?
A. They do, yes, s ir .
Q. Now, M r. Walker, in your forty years of experience, starting
back with your survey in 1926 and *27 and up to today, I believe you
have stated that the pattern of the difference between your achieve
ment and educational levels of the two races has remained some
what in the same pattern?
A. That is right.
Q* During that period of tim e, have you noticed any improvement in the
cultural level of the Negro race?
374
A. I have been, as an educator, I have been responsible for an educa-
tion program involving white and Negroes since 1937. That is 27
years. And in that 27 year period, I have seen considerable im
provement in the cultural level of our Negro population in this
d istrict.
Q. Even though that be a fact, the pattern as to the distinction (R-47S)
between the education and achievement of the two ra ces rem ains
substantially the same proportion?
A. Approximately the same as it has been, to my knowledge, for 27
or 30 years.
Q. Mr. W alker, in your judgment, will you tell the Court whether
there is anything positive or affirmative, as an educator looking
toward the education of these people of this d istrict, in making
assignments or educating these children in separate schools by
race?
A. F irs t, let me say that as I would see it, from the evidence in the
two charts we have just seen, we have a record of a school d is
tr ic t where the median years of school completed by adult popula
tion is equal to or exceeds school d istricts all over the country,
whether they are segregated or desegregated. That says to me
that where you have separate schools for the races that you have
the best achievement record of your total population, certainly
better than in any of the cities that we have identified here.
Reviewing my experience and looking at the facts as I know
them, — and that has to do with the educability of white and Neg
ro youths that attend public schools - - knowing the characteristics,
375
the educational characteristics and the social characteristics of
the whites and Negroes who attend schools in this d istrict, I am
compelled as a professional educator to the conclusion that sepa
rate schools for the (R-479) races in this d istrict, for the re a
sons cited, Is for the best interest of a ll children, and we would be
in a position of injuring educationally, denying them what is really
their best educational opportunity, white and Negro, if we did not
keep in mind that the past experience Is c lear, and that we have
no basis upon which to make another judgment.
MR. CANNADA: We have no further questions.
THE COURT: Any questions by any of the other defendants?
By the intervenors?
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. LEONARD:
Q. Mr. Walker, regarding that figure for Washington, D. C . , which,
as I reca ll, you stated was quite high and that they had quite a high
Negro population percentage. Is that a correct statement?
A. The percent of non-white population in Washington, D. C ., in the
1960 census was 54. 8.
Q. And of the persons over 25 who had a high school education or bet •
te r , it was what?
A. i l . 7 years of completed schooling.
Q. In other words, Washington, D. C. was close to your own figure,
wasn't it? It was in the higher bracket?
A. Y es, s ir , it was.
Q. And the people 25 years or older in Washington in 1960 were
(R-480) 376
a product of which? The previously separate schools or the newer
intermixed schools?
A. These are a ll adults who at seven years earlier would have been
18 years of age, which is about the typical time to graduate from
high school.
Q. And that would have been before —
A. That would have been in IS 53.
Q. Before the Brown decision?
A. Y es, I believe that's co rrect. Yes, s ir .
Q. There was testimony yesterday from Congressman W illiams that
you will reca ll that until 1954 the schools in Washington were seg
regated.
A. I rem em ber.
Q. With respect to the educating power of your schools and your
schools as separate schools, I want to read you m aterial which
purports to come from a book by professor E li Ginsberg at Colum
bia called THE NEGRO POTENTIAL, and ask whether this agrees
with your experience in the Jackson schools:
"This means that only three out of every hundred graduates
from segregated Negro high schools in the South are qualified for
a good interracial co lleg e ."
Is three percent essentially that which you have in Jackson?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Next, he says: "L ess than one out of every hundred Negro students
in the North and West was fully qualified for college (R-481) ad
mission.
377
A. I don't know that either.
Q. Has your experience been that your system turns out more Negroes
proportionately who are qualified for college than the Northern
schools do?
A. I believe they do, yes, s ir , both white and Negro.
Q. Do you know who Jack Greenberg is? Have you heard his name?
A. I believe he is an attorney for the NAACP.
Q. He wrote a book called RACE RELATIONS IN AMERICAN LAW,
and I would like to quote you some figures from his book and ask
whether this concurs with your experience.
He states that 2 1 /2 to 4 .4 percent of the Negro high school
graduates in Southern separate schools attains national college ad
mission standards, whereas in a survey of fifty leading Northern
integrated high schools having a thirty percent Negro enrollment,
less than two-tenths of one percent of the Negro graduates could
meet these scholarship standards."
A. I don't know the record of the northern schools.
Q. Well, does the southern statement agree with essentially the type
of education you are giving in Jackson?
A. May I see the statement, rather than listen to it? I'm more visual-
minded than audio-oriented.
Q. Certainly. (Hands to witness)
A. I'm not fam iliar with the northern record. I would be inclined to
the view that we have a considerable number of graduates of
(R-482)
high schools attended by Negroes that would be admitted to univer
sities and colleges anywhere in the nation.
378
Q. Do you know of any who have gone to northern colleges? Would
this come to your attention?
A. I have a general recollection, but I could not name individuals nor
numbers.
Q. X would like to read to you at this time, M r. Walker, rather than
show you, some figures concerning a city, and I want to ask you
whether you think they are as good or worse than the resu lts you
are obtaining with Negro education in this city: - -
MR* B E L L : Your Honor, I think we would like to enter
another objection. This reading or entering into the record m ater
ial that hasn't been introduced is both improper and the relevancy
is so far removed from this case that, notwithstanding the earlier
ruling, I think it appropriate that we object. This is getting far
afield.
MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I do not offer this m aterial
for the truth of the statement. I offer it for the basis of a hypo
thetical question to Mr. Walker, as an expert. He has been qual
ified as an expert and has Information on the Jackson schools, so
I do not offer this to prove what the truth is as to these various
other statements. It is merely whether it agrees with his experi
ence.
THE COURT: Very well, I will overrule the objection and
let you get it into the record, but I don't think it has any CR-483)
probative force as I see it at this time. You may ask the question,
and I will let him answer.
Q. In the 3rd grade Metropolitan achievement scores: white scores,
379
3 .7 years; Negro scores, 2 .5 years, a lag of 1 .2 years in the
3rd grade reading.
In the 6th grade reading: for white grade average, 6 .9 ;
for Negro average, 4 .7 , a difference of 2 .2 years in reading at
the 6th grade level.
At the 8th grade level, in reading: 8 .4 is the white average;
6 .0 is the Negro average, a difference of 2 .4 years in reading at
the 8th grade level.
Now, my question to you, Mr. Walker, are these essen
tially the standards - - - have you reached the same standards, or
are you more advanced in Negro education than the figures I have
Just given you?
A. Those are in term s of grades?
Q. Those are in term s of grade equivalents.
A. I believe our records here, in term s of stanine, I would say the
pattern is somewhat sim ilar, although the disparity may be slight
ly varying.
Q. E ssentially the same pattern that you have here ?
A. That is right.
Q. That is all.
THE COURT: C ross examine.
(R-484) CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. B E L L :
Q. Without reviewing all your testimony you have given over the last
two hours, am I co rrect in concluding that, based on all your pro
fessional opinion and your studies and your experience to the effect
380
that the separate school system presently operated here In Jackson
is the best for all the people, that you have made and plan to make
no compliance with the Court's order of March 4th until further
orders of the Court are entered?
MR. CANNADA: We object to that. That has no bearing in
this lawsuit.
MR. B E L L : Could I be heard? I was abiding by the Court's
ruling of yesterday, and I don't mean to ask the same thing, but I
think, Your Honor, in view of the nature of the testimony that we
have received here this afternoon starting back with the origination
of segregation of the schools of Jackson back in the 19th century
and carrying through here with a complete detailed picture of why
the superintendent feels that segregation is the best, why after the
1954 decision they revamped their assignment procedures so as to
give him the authority of mailing such assignments according to
these racia l characteristics — In all this testimony he has given
us of his view as to why we need to continue a segregated basis. I
think the question I asked is appropriate and can be distinguished
from the question you sustained objection on yesterday. (R-485)
THE COURT: The question I sustained objection to yester
day called for something to the effect of what they had done since —
MR. B E L L : — That's right, what had they done since
March 4th. Now, based on their testimony today, I am asking
whether they are planning to do anything unless further ordered by
the Court.
THE COURT: Well, I will sustain the objection to that.
381
.That will be passed upon la te r when they submit the plan. I don’t
think it is competent here now because it would stir up, very prob
ably, and handicap the preparations of the plan that I have ordered
to be filed by the 15th of July, or whenever it was; so I sustain
the objection to that.
ME. B E L L : All right, Your Honor, we have no further
questions.
THE COURT: You may step aside.
(Witness excused)
MR. CANNADA: The defendants rest.
MR. B E L L : I think at this moment, if the defendants have
rested and before the intervenors proceed, that it might be helpful
to attorneys for plaintiff if we could gather together for a little
conference so as to get some idea of how this case is going to pro
ceed, and a few other questions. Would that be possible? (R-486)
THE COURT: Well, my thought was to have the interve
nors put on what testimony they have in the Jackson case, with
your right of rebuttal. Then the Jackson case would be concluded.
Then we would take up the Leslie County case.
MR. B E L L : I was wondering, first, based on your start
this afternoon except for the one witness this morning, whether the
intervenors could give us an idea of how many witnesses they do
have and how much tim e, so that we could make our plans.
THE COURT: Y es. Y es. I would like to hear their best
estimate on that.
382
MR. LEONARD: We have one witness whom we are going
to attempt to c lear so that he can get out of there this afternoon,
as he has classes tomorrow. That is D r. G arrett, who will be the
next witness. Tomorrow morning we expect to use D r. McGurk,
probably for an hour and a half, to be followed by D r. Van Den
Haag of New York University, for I would say two and a half or
three hours. We will have either D r. George, who has been ill
recently, if he can come, or, if not, we will ask to read his prior
testimony. D r. Hoy of the University of South Carolina - - This
will probably be not over a half an hour. We will follow that with
D r. Kuttner, about an hour and a half; and possibly D r. Whitaker
following that for about an hour.
MR. B E L L : I was just trying to figure out whether (R-487)
that meant —
MR. LEONARD: - - Midday Friday, I would say.
MR. B E L L : V/e would say at this time we don’t plan to
either offer any rebuttal to this type of testimony or any cross
examination, for the reasons that we have already indicated, and
I was wondering about making our plans for completing the case.
And as a part of that, I am wondering, with the record
growing by leaps and bounds, whether or not we could get some
information from the court reporter as to his ability to get to work
on this any time soon. If it seem s that he is already piled up with
other work, the plaintiffs would be prepared to bring in their own
court reporter so as to assure that we would be able to have a r e c
ord for the Court and for ourselves as early as possible. Ordinarily
383
it wouldn’t be a problem, but I imagine this testimony is going to
fill quite a few volumes.
(Off the record discussion)
DE. HENRY E . GARRETT, called as a witness and having been duly
sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. LEONARD, for Intervenors:
w. D r. G arrett, would you state your full name and your employment?
A. Henry E . G arrett. Well, le t 's see. You w a n t - - - ?
Q. What is your present employment? (R-488)
A. Visiting professor of education and psychology at the University of
Virginia.
Q. What is your previous academic employment?
A. Professor of psychology at Columbia University for thirty years.
Q. What was your position in the psychology department of Columbia?
A. I was chairman for sixteen years.
Q. What Is your academic background in term s of degrees?
A. Well, I have an AB and an MA, a PHD, and a DSC.
Q. What was the f ir s t doctorate in, D r, G arrett?
A. Psychology.
MR. LEONARD: I would like to hand to the Court an outline
of D r. G arrett's qualifications.
Q. Are you a member of any professional associations?
A. Y es. Shall I list them?
Q. Just give us some, and any offices you have held in them.
A. American Psychological Association, past president; Eastern
384
P sycholgical Association, past president; Psychometric Society,
past president; New York State association of Psychology, past
president; American Association for Advancement of Science,
vice-president.
Q. Have you published any academic studies in your field?
A. Quite a few. I am author of eight books and fifty or so, I suppose,
papers.
Q. Are any of them general texts used in the field? {R-489)
A. Y es, I have a general text in psychology, and I have two books
dealing with mental testing. Two were statistics; one was experi
mental.
Q. I show you a bibliography, D r. G arrett, and ask if the publications
listed there are your publications?
A. These are a few of the ones that bear upon this particular topic.
0 , MR, LEONARD: I offer these in evidence, the bibliography
of D r. Henry E . G arrett.
THE COURT*. Let it be received.
{Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenor's Exhibit No. 5)
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
be inspected.)
Q. Basically , what is your field of study?
A. Experimental psychology and what is called differential psychology,
which means the psychology of differences among people.
Q. Are you fam iliar with the work that has been published in that field?
A. I think so.
Q. Does differential psychology involve itself only with differences in
385
race , or any differences between any group or type?
A. D ifferences due to race , sex, practice, variations within the indi
vidual. All sorts of tilings.
Q. How do you determine these differences?
A. Well, mostly by measurement using psychometric m easures or
tests . {R-490}
Q. What are psychometric tests?
A. Psychom etric test is a problem of some sort or a series of items
that are intended to measure some fairly definite tra it or ability.
Q. Is intelligence one of those abilities?
A. Y es. Intelligence, of course, is so broadly used that you have to
lim it your definition when you are dealing with schools and with
ability to do school work, and the intelligence tests as used in
schools are designed to measure the ability to deal with symbols,
words, numbers, formulas, diagrams.
Q. Hasn't there been recently an attack upon intelligence tests in a
number of places?
A. Well, there has been an attack on intelligence tests for the last 30
years. They come and go. Most of them don't understand what
the tests are supposed to do. Parents think if the child has a high
academic potential that he should behave well, and mind his parents,
and not get into trouble; but the test, as I say to them sometimes,
there are a good many people of high intelligence who have been
arrested for forgery and for various offenses, who are in prison,
and that high academic or high potential for academic work does
not necessarily mean that a person will be intelligent in all that he
386
does, social behavior.
Q. Well, are you saying that the so-called intelligence tests simply
measure potential for study?
A. No. I say the Intelligence tests as used in the schools (R-491)
measure the potential for work in schools and for related work in
professions and business — lawyers, physicians, engineers, and
so on, if they did not possess this same sort of intelligence would
not be able to function.
Q,. In other words, tills is essentially an ability, rather than some
thing called general Intelligence?
A. Well, "general" is the wrong word. I don't know of any better word
than "abstract intelligence." I'd ca ll it "symbolic in telligence,"
but that doesn't carry exactly what you mean.
Q. Now, of the tests that measure this particular capability of study,
have any been made in the field of ra ces?
A. Oh, yes, great numbers.
Q. Has this been done over any period of tim e?
A. Over the last 50 years.
Q. Are you fam iliar with some of the work in the field?
A. I think so.
Q. Do you know of any compilations which have been made bringing
this m aterial together?
A. Well, the work that D r, ohuey published in 1358 brought up to that
date all the work that had been done in the preceding 40 or 50
years. 240 studies.
Q. And are you fam iliar with the work of D r. Shuey?
387
A. Very fam iliar.
Q. And what were her conclusions, based upon all of those tes ts?
A. Well, the general drift showed a considerable difference on all of
the psychometric measurements. These were not all (R-492)
m easures of abstract ability. There were a number of perform
ance measurements too, but the Negro generally tested lower than
the white, not only in childhood but in adulthood, and she measured
soldiers, delinquents, crim inals, and all these groups tested gen
erally lower, the Negroes, than the whites.
Q. Now, was this true in the North as well as in the South?
A. Y es.
Q. Has it been true to the same degree as far as you know abroad as
well as in this country?
A. There haven't been so very many quantities of studies abroad, but
those that I know about show this same difference.
Q. Were you present this morning during the testimony of D r.
Osborne?
A. Y es.
Q. Do you reca ll the differences to which D r. Osborne testified in the
various c ities?
A. Y es.
Q. Is that essentially in conformity with your knowledge of the past
tests which have been made and reported on by D r. Shuey and
others?
A. I think so.
Q. Are you fam iliar with the Army alpha and beta test?
338
A. Y es.
Q. Would you te ll us something about those?
A. Well, the Army alpha was devised In 1917 and given to about (R-493)
two million soldiers. The beta was a non-language test given to
about 800,000 who couldn't read or write, or do it very well. And
the test was used as a means mainly of classification of men into
various groups and selection for special sorts of serv ices and
training programs.
Q. How large a sample did they have ?
A. Two million.
Q. What were the resu lts of those tests in term s of racia l difference?
A. Well, I don't think really the test was ever designed to measure
racia l difference. It was used for that purpose, and I believe it
was a mistake, but it was so used. The Negroes did less well
than the white soldiers on the test. There was a gap not only in
the Army alpha, which was a verbal test to measure abstract abil
ity at a fairly low level; but also on the beta test, which was a per
formance test involving no language, the gap was as large on one
as it was on the other.
Q. Now, is this essentially what is known as and referred to as cul
tural and non-cultural, or verbal and non-verbal?
A. Well, verbal and non-verbal is a little different than the other, I
think. A non-verbal test would be one that does not Involve words.
Perform ances of some sort. For instance, typical would be put
ting blocks into holes, or building somewhat like a jigsaw puzzle,
putting the pieces together, or counting with blocks, and things
38S
which involved very little, (R-4S4) If any, language, other than
the instructions.
Q. In that connection, D r. G arrett, has it ever been asserted that
these resu lts of these tests in World War I did not show the differ
ences which other tests have?
A. Well, that was done I'm afraid that got into literature and was
echoed over and over again. It was a gimmick, really . The four
northern states in which the Negroes tested higher were compared
with four southern states in which the whites tested lowest; in
other words, it took the upper end of one curve and the lower end
of another curve and compared the two, and it was largely a r e
flection of the differences in education level of the two parts of the
country, I think. The correlation of this Army alpha test with
education was . 70, which is quite high, meaning that the better
educated Negroes did somewhat better — they didn't do much, a
point or so ---b u t better than the less well educated whites in
Arkansas, M ississippi, Georgia, and Alabama.
Q. Who raised that question?
A. W ell, it was brought up by equalitarians, cultural anthropologists,
and was popularized by Klineberg and has appeared in the World
War n , in a little pamphlet called RACES OF MANKIND by two
authors, Benedict and Weltfish, a pamphlet which incited a lot of
critic ism and was finally withdrawn. CR-495)
Q, Have you seen the monograph by D r. Kennedy and others on the
testing of Negro elementary school children in the Southeast?
A. Y es, I have.
Q. And did you hear D r. Osborne testify about that this morning?
A. I did.
Q. And are the results in that monograph essentially the same as the
resu lts you are referring to in Shuey's study and others?
A. Very close, in spite of the fact that the authors did their very level
best to explain them away.
Q. Do you reca ll that in that connection we displayed to D r. Osborne
a graph showing a measure of the Negro student figures against a
normal curve?
A. Y es.
Q. And at that time we discussed the question of the shape of the Negro
curve. Is there any comment you could make on that?
A. Well, the curve is not a truly normal curve. What is called the
standard deviation or the spread of the curve is four points less
than It was in the white curve, and that accounts for that bunching
together and peakedness in the curve. I t ’s a fancy-named thing
called "leptokurtic." --When a curve is peaked up, when th ere 's
too little variability In it. - - And here, it seems to me it showed a
lack of range or spread in the Negro group. That's been found
before though.
Q. In other words, you are saying that they tend to pack up more
(R-496)
than usual?
A. Pack up around the typical measure, yes.
Q. Do you reca ll the testimony this morning and in the Kennedy report
to which we referred , about the different results on different sub
je c t m atters, scholastic m atters?
390
391
A. Y es.
Q. Is this also typical of the general testing in this field?
A. Y es.
Q. And do you reca ll the differences which occurred in term s of rate
of learning, a change of rate of learning over the period of the
school years?
A. Against the ages?
Q. Against ages.
A. Y es, indeed.
Q. And is that typical of the general results in the field?
A. That is typical.
Q. And on each of these three differences, the absolute difference
which is measured In something like the Army alpha, the rate dif
ference which we just discussed and the subject difference, are
these part of a pattern, so that if you match for one you have
matched for the others? Or do they independently vary?
A. I think it is a pattern. It shows much the same trend throughout.
Q. Do you reca ll D r. Osborne's testimony about the matched group?
A. Y es. (R-497)
Q. And that having matched for actual mental ability, there was a rate
change thereafter ?
A. Right.
Q. Is that normal?
A. Well, that is perfectly possible, because the matching which he did
was in term s of a rather general index, and there 's a good deal of
variability within any person's abilities or aptitudes. As a matter
of fact, within the Individual, his aptitudes will vary about 75 p er
cent as much as any aptitude will vary In the population; so there
is a lot of variability there.
Nov;, what D r. Osborne's results showed was that despite
these matched groups, there was a fall-off in the Negro perform
ance with age, which is entirely possible. For example, one per
son might get a good score on the mental test because he does well
in numbers, and another one because he does well with words.
Well, if he does better on one than on the other, that will show up
when you measure that specific aptitude.
Also, there was a fall with mental age as they went on. I t 's
no doubt true that those groups lost altitude.
Q. Do I understand then that this pattern you refer to is one which
can't be measured by any single unit?
A. I don't think so, no.
Q. In other words, merely matching children on the basis of an IQ
test or something like that doesn't mean you have two children who
will respond the sam e? (R-498)
A, No. It does not at all. They may do roughly the same sort of work,
but not the same work, by any means.
Q. What is the cause of these differences, as far as you know?
A. Well, of course, two primary causes are the heredity inherent in
the child and the environmental pressures — the school, the com
munity, and the church, the movies, the television, and all the
re s t of the influences that bear upon him.
Q. Is there any way of determining how much each of these two factors
393
plays?
A. You can only do it statistically so as to draw a general conclusion
which might not be strictly true in a given case , A favorite way
has been to use twins. Identical twins are not only born at the
same time, but they are also of the same sex and they have identi
ca l heredity, coming from the double fertilization of one ovary.
Fratern al twins are brothers and sisters who are born together,
but they are not, except for the fact that they are the same age,
they are as different as any children within a family can be. And
what’s done here, as the geneticists have worked this out, you get
a relationship among these fraternal twins and among the identical
twins, and then you put it into what’s called a heredibility index to
find out how much of a difference is among your fraternal, because
theoretically all of the likeness in the identicals is hereditary;
they have exactly the same heredity. You find how much of the
difference - - or the likeness; you can take it either way — of the
fraternal is due to inheritance, (R-499) and how much to environ
ment.
Q. Do they ever study twins, identical twins, who are raised under
different environments?
A. Y es, that's been done too, identical twins raised within the same
home, and raised apart.
Q. What is the purpose of such a study?
A. To see how much the environment can do.
Q. You are saying that if they are raised in the same environment they
will be close together, and if they are raised in different environ-
394
merits they —
A. Theoretically, you would expect children raised in the same home,
if they're identical twins, to be more nearly alike than identical
twins who are reared in different parts of the country or in d iffer-
ent fam ilies.
Q. Are they?
A. Y es. Those who are reared together vary on the average of about
five points, one from the other. Unrelated children will vary f if
teen points. Children, twins, who are reared apart in different
circum stances will differ about eight points. And so environment,
apparently, is able to raise the five to eight; that's all It can do.
Q. Are there any other studies which are made to determine this type
of causation? Can you equate environmental factors in children
and then study it?
A. You really can’t, and it 's been done with ra ts because you can con
trol ra ts , and you can get a whole series of generations, CR-500)
and in one of the best studies I know of, that in which seven genera
tions of ra ts were bred, bright rats and duE ra ts . They separated
them into two species, actually by breeding the bright ra ts inter
se, among themselves, and the dull ones; and the result was that
they had two separate species.
A. Up to the fifth generation. After the fifth generation there was no
further separation. But they had what really amounted, to these
experim enters, to two species of rats, bright rats and duE ra ts .
And it was aE due to heredity. Environment was exactly the same.
Q. In other words, the mentality of the rats proved to be heritable?
A, Heritable and extrem ely effective# in separating.
MR, B E L L : May I suggest we have a continuing objection.
Your Honor. I'm having a little difficulty connecting the ra ts and
the school cases we are trying. Could we ask that counsel explain?
MR. LEONARD; I'd be very happy to explain.
Your Honor, we're concerned with the fact that there is no
serious dispute whatever — in fact, there Isn 't any factual as well
as legal dispute from plaintiffs — that enormous differences in
educability ex ist between the white and Negro students In the Jack -
son schools; in fact, between white and Negro students In any
schools. Now, if this is the fault of (R-501) the schools, if a
change in the school environment, the teachers or something e lse ,
can cure or close this gap, then since we are here equally before
this Court they are entitled to ask for the kind of re lie f that will
close it because no one denies that these children have equal rights
to the best possible education for themselves. Therefore, what we
are trying to show now is that these differences do not resu lt from
the school, they do not result from the social pattern which exists
in the State of Mississippi or any other state; but fundamentally
these differences we are discussing, the ones which we have shown
on these charts, are differences which are mate in the individual
and that the amount of change which can be made by changing either
the curricula of the school or the neighborhood is so minute that
separate education Is the only education which is going to take care
of the differences, because you can't change them back. In other
words, I am now trying to show that these differences are h eri
table; they are not caused, by the schools or by the homes.
THE COURT: I am going to overrule the objection and let
the testimony go In. I think the objection goes to the weight more
than it does to admissibility. If it has no weight, has no relevancy,
certainly it will be disregarded; but at this stage of the proceed
ings, I can’t te ll what weight or what competency it is entitled to.
So I overrule the objection and will let the testimony go in. (R-502)
(M r. Leonard continues:)
Q. D r. G arrett, is there a test known as the S .P .S .3 ,1 . ?
A. That is a society.
Q. It is what?
A. It is a society, not a test.
Q. What Is the society?
A. The Society for Psychological Study of Social Issues.
Q. I see. Do you know of any studies which it has made in an effort
to equate social and environmental factors being involved in racia l
differences?
A. Well, the president of that society wrote a paper in which he said
that it was well known from many studies that when the environ
ment of Negro and white children was made more nearly identical
that they drew closer and closer together.
And I answered that by assembling the many studies, which
were altogether six, in literature in which a really serious attempt
had been made to equate the environment, and I found that the
drawing together wasn’t there, that they drew together in some in
stances a little bit more in random groups, but that the effect was
396
397
negligible. I concluded the paper by saying that instead of the
evidence being overwhelming, there wasn’t any.
you
Q. I show/what purports to be a pamphlet, "The S .P .S .S .L and
R acial D ifferen ces," by Henry E . G arrett, and ask if that is
CR-503)
the study to which you just referred .
A. Y es, s ir .
MR. LEONARD: I offer this into evidence.
THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenor's Exhibit No. 6}
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original is to
be inspected.)
Q. I ask, D r. G arrett, does Intervenor’s Exhibit 6 represent your
opinion on this subject?
A. Y es.
Q. And the conclusion of your study on that subject is that these factors
do or do not affect the difference ?
A. That the environment has almost a negligible effect.
Q. Have you made a sim ilar study of any kind of the available lite ra
ture on the twin studies to which you referred ?
A. Y es. Nov/, I brought up the rats because It is impossible to con
trol children the way you can animals. I must apologize for the
ra ts , but it was the only one in which really there was a control.
Now, in cases of twins there have been fifty studies of identical
and fraternal twins, and the concensus is that 75 percent of the
difference among these fraternal twins can be accounted for by
heredity; only 25 percent by environment. That has been accepted
398
by geneticists everywhere now — firs t in London and I think
everybody who has studied the subject.
Q. That’s 25 percent of the difference, and not 25 percent of the entire
test? (R-504)
A. You can’t break down a score into heredity or environment; you can
only break down what makes people vary.
Q. I show you at this time what purports to be an article entitled
"Genetics and In telligence,11 by Henry E , Garrett, and ask if this
is the study to which you just referred ?
A. Y es. I think I came up with 72 percent there, but 75 is often
quoted, and it’s close enough. That was based on fifty studies.
Q. Do you know of any actual studies to the contrary, any substantially
serious studies which would disagree with you on th is?
A. No.
THE COURT: Let me ask here: Are you offering that In
evidence ?
MR. LEONARD: I asked that it be marked In evidence.
THE COURT: I didn’t hear you. Let that be received in
evidence.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervenor's Exhibit No. 7}
(Exhibit is not copied because by order of the Court the original Is to
be inspected.)
Q. In term s of this cultural change which you have referred to, D r.
G arrett, as theoretically changing the gap which exists between the
two races and which you have stated these studies tend to disprove,
do you know of any long-range figures which have been used on
399
these gaps to determine whether the change of a culture over a
long period of time has in fact lessened the gap between the two
groups? Has such a study, CR-505) for example, been made in
Wilmington that you know of?
A. Oh. I thought you wanted historical studies.
The 'Wilmington study compared the relative position in a
number of tests of the Negro and white students some 35 years ago,
and again in the last year or two; and the gap was as great as it
was then, in spite of the obviously very much increased social and
economic condition of the Negro children. I t 's exactly the same
result that the Jackson schools showed in that 1927 book on the
O’Shea report.
Q. You are referring to the O’Shea report which D r. Walker partici
pated in?
A. Y es.
Q. And the figures there are substantially the same as the figures they
have today?
A. Just the same. Forty years made no change.
Q. Has there been, in your opinion, Doctor, any substantial change in
the position of the Negro in Jackson, M ississippi, in the forty years
intervening?
A. Not from that report. That's all I can judge by.
Q. No, I mean in the cultural position of the Negro in Jackson,
A. Oh, I think certainly from a standpoint of social and economic
change th ere’s been terrific improvement.
Q. And that is without any substantial effect, apparently, on the figures
400
which show the measurements?
A. Y es. Of course, the native African had 5,000 years, in which
there was no change. (R-506)
Q. You mean culturally speaking?
A. Well, they were exposed to various types of culture, but their own
status did not improve as far as any development of culture of their
own is concerned.
Q. Summarizing, D r. G arrett, what Is the educational significance of
these differences, as you see it?
A. Well, the educational significance would be this:
If you have two groups, one with the average IQ centering
around 80, and the other, 100, if they are 'thrown together in the
same classroom , if the standards are set so that the lower group
can do the work, fifty percent of the other group will not get an
education.
On the other hand, If you set the standards for the upper
group, you have got fifty to sixty percent of your lower group who
are not going to be educated. They won't be able to follow the work,
with the resu lts of drop-outs, frustrations and the complaints that
go with it.
Q. Is this reaction at all affected by the teacher-pupil relationship, as
you see it?
A. I think very directly so.
Q. In what way?
A. V/ell, the pupil responds to the teacher, and if the teacher under -
stands and has the same kind of outlook and attitude as the pupil
401
does, there is much more likely to be rapport and resulting sa tis
faction than there is with a person whose general attitude and out
look is very (R-507) different.
Q. Well, you were talking before about the fact that there appears to
be a Negro and a white study of educability pattern. Would this
apply as much to the teachers as to the pupils?
A. I think so.
Q. And would it, in such a case, be educationally advantageous in your
opinion to have teachers and pupils with essentially the same pat
tern?
A. It certainly would look so. That's what I was trying to say, that the
rapport would certainly be greater where they have the same
attitudes.
Q. Would this be essentially the same if they had the same educational
background or a different educational background as long as their
education was superior to that of the children?
A. As long as their education was what?
Q. Superior to that of the children.
A. Y es.
Q. In other words, is the pattern more important than what we might
call the form al scholastic standing of the teachers?
A. I would say the pattern is more important.
Q. And this pattern is , in term s of educating the child, the most im
portant of the teacher's qualifications, in essense?
A. That's right.
Q. D r. G arrett, M r. Pittman calls my attention to a Kent County study
402
that was made at one tim e. Do you reca ll that? Kent County,
Ontario? (R-508)
A. Kent County, Ontario? Y es.
Q. T ell us something about that study,
A. Well, the Negroes that lived in Ontario, In Canada, for a hundred
years, a great many of them came in on underground railroad, and
there had never been any segregation, The Negro group were
members of the community. They did segregate themselves in a
sense, or separated themselves, the way people do, but there was
no legal compulsion. They went to school with the white children.
And this study was done In 1939, and at that time the difference in
academic achievement of the two groups was as great as it is in the
United States — that is , the Negro group lags behind the white
group, with an overlap of something like 13 to 20 percent.
Q. D r, G arrett, do you keep abreast of all the educational news com
ing out of New York City, as far as the papers are concerned?
A, Y es, I try to.
Q. Are you aware of the recent efforts they are making In Harlem to
increase the standards of the Harlem schools?
A, I ’ve read some of It.
Q. - - and overcome the lag which they have found. What I want to ask
your opinion about, D r. Garrett, Is this:
Is it better in a school in which the school population is
essentially Negro, to move at a pace which fits the Negro's Immed
iate capability, or to drive to a higher level In order to try to make
thorn fit a norm?
(Pv-509) 403
A. To move at the rate which fits his capabilities. If you drive him at
a higher rate , you will just have trouble.
Q. Now, as I understand it, the effort they are going to make in New
York at this time is to set up special c lasses which will go beyond
even the norms and try to bring all of these people back up. What
I ask you at this tim e, D r. Garrett, is whether this is liable to
make the student more educated or le ss?
A, Well, they won't succeed, in the f ir s t place, and it 's not going to
succeed, and such little success as they achieve will probably make
the student less educated, because he will be more confused.
Is that the Ear you project in Harlem?
Q. That's the one I understand, the Ear you effort, by putting money
into increased education, the theory being that you can drive this
up. What I was asking you was whether you think it can be driven
up, or whehther it has to proceed at a pace that sets Itself.
A. Well, isn 't that the general theory, that by education and social r e
form , you can change people fundamentally? - - Which, of course,
you can't do, and which we have failed in so often before.
Q. Do you know of any examples of pupils who have been placed in
schools in which they are not really fitted to go into and what hap
pens to them in term s of their mental and physical health? (R-510)
A. Well, there are a good many of those. They are anecdotal, and
anecdotes are not offered in evidence, but they are very suggestive.
In Charlottesville, Virginia, they have put some Negroes into the
high school, a high school of some 1200 white students with about
30 Negroes in it now, and according to the counselors most of them
404
are not very happy. They hang together in a little clique, as though
they are reinforcing each other. Four of them dropped out during
the year and asked to go. There were several cases of so-called
nervous breakdowns, which can mean most anything. It hasn't
been happy.
Q* Do you consider this a normal result of attempting —-
A. A normal result of an abnormal situation, I think, yes.
Q. But you previously discussed, D r. G arrett, the existence of sepa
rate patterns here for these groups, The question is, if you try to
conform them to a single pattern, is this a normal result, as you
see It as an educator?
Is there a s tress upon the child in being placed in a pattern
which is not fitted —
A. --Y e s . Of course there is . I waSn’t sure whether we were on
the same wave length then.
Q. Does such a s tress affect his education?
A. I think so, yes.
Q. Are there any other m atters, D r. G arrett, which you think bear
upon the question which is before this Court? (R-511)
A. Well, I think this question of environment, that we ought to consider
that all of the evidence that we have would seem to indicate that
racia l differences are far more are determined to a far greater
degree by heredity than by environment. You have the anatomical
evidence, which you are going to bring on here, the psychometric
evidence, testing, the historical evidence — which, for me, at
least, is quite conclusive - - - and then you have the social evidence
405
with social behavior, which seem s to me to indicate a kind of im
maturity in many of these children, which is matched by their pat
terns of growth in studies made in Uganda, Kenya, E ast A frica,
showing that the Negro child there grows up fast, hits his peak
early, and after that he doesn't go any farther. And we have that
same pattern in this country. The overlap in the 1st grade in V ir
ginia in a statewide survey showed almost no difference in the
kindergarten and 1st grade level. After that, they pulled apart
steadily, so that by the time you got to the high school, it was no
longer a gap; it was a chasm.
Now, I think you would have to take account of that differ
ence in educability, which is a resu lt of a having or not having
abstract intelligence. Modern technical civilization depends on
that. That is probably, in an evolutionary sense, the last thing
that has developed in man, and the difference between the mud huts
of the Congo and the cathedrals of Europe show it in a concrete way.
(R-512)
Q. Well, let me say this, D r. G arrett:
Tailing that and interpreting it in term s of actual curricu
lum, isn’t it possible to teach the same subject matter in one case
in abstract form and in the other case in essentially memory form ?
A. Well, up to a certain level. You get to a point where you can no
longer do that.
Q. And would the two patterns we have been discussing in this Court,
for example, the two entirely different patterns which we have been
testifying about, suggest possibly different treatments of the same
subjects - —
406
A. Y es.
Q. — to these two groups?
A. Y es. That was done In Wilmington, North Carolina, very su ccess
fully and was satisfactory to all concerned.
Q. Have you heard about special prim ers they have been using in some
places in the North?
A. Y es. I have seen them.
Q. And otherwise in term s of these mental characteristics of the
early age and the early maturity, would this suggest to you that
the type of driving instruction which D r. Barker has testified to is
the type of instruction which is best, essentially, for the Negro,
as opposed to the white child?
A. It seem s so, certainly.
Q. Would it be your conclusion then that not only separate, but(R-513)
different schools —
A. Right.
Q. - - are essentially required in order to grant equal educational
opportunity?
A. Equal educational opportunity is a fallacy if they are the same.
They are no longer equal. The opportunity has to be adjusted to
the potential of the child; and people who quote with great glibness
of equality of opportunity are saying precisely nothing. It has to be
an opportunity which is adjusted to the level of the learning.
MR, LEONARD: That is all I have.
THE COURT: Any cross examination?
407
MR, B E L L : We will just m ate the same objection regard
ing the relevancy of the testimony.
THE COURT: Very well. Let the objection be overruled.
MR. CANNADA: The defendants would like to adopt the
testimony of D r. G arrett.
THE COURT: Very well.
(Witness excused)
THE COURT: At tills point we will recess until nine
o ’clock tomorrow morning.
(Whereupon the court was recessed until the following day)