Smith v Morrilton School District BOE Transcript of Proceedings

    IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 
EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS 

WESTERN DIVISION

CLEMENT S. SMITH, ET AL, )
)

PLAINTIFFS )
)

VS )
) LR-65-C-103

THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF )
MORRILTON SCHOOL DISTRICT )
NO. 32, ET AL, )

)
DEFENDANTS )

LITTLE ROCK, ARKANSAS 

SEPTEMBER 13, 1965

Pages 1 - 190 
Volume No. 1

JOHN I .  GILBERT 
O f f i c ia l  Reporter 

P. O. Box 2243 
L i t t l e  Rock, Ark.



2

C O N T E N T S

DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS

*

WITNESS___________
i * \  .
Terry Humble 
Margaret Sanders 
Clement S. Smith 
T. E. Patterson

EXHIBITS

P‘ 2 No. 1
P‘ s No. 1-A
P's No. 2
P«s No. 3
P's No. 4
P's No. 5
P's No. 6
P's No. 7
P's No . 8
P's No. 9
P's No. 10
P's No. 11
P's No. 12
P»s No. 13
P's No. 14

5
65 68
96 106

128 138

FOR IDENTIFICATION

9
10
17
22
25
35
35
42
44
47
52
70
81
82

104

121
144-150-153 149-151

IN EVIDENCE

9
11
17
22
25
35
36 
42 
44 
48 
52 
70 
82 
82

104

95
156
159
160

D's No. 1
D's N0 . 2
D's No. 3
D’ s No. 4

94
156
159
160



\ IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT C( 
EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS 

WESTERN DIVISION

CLEMENT S. SMITH and THE ARKANSAS., TEACHERS ) 
ASSOCIATION, RLNC., )

P l a i n t i f f &
)

vs )
)

THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF MORRILTON SCHOOL ) 
DISTRICT NO. 32; DR. H. B. WHITE, FELVER ) 
ROWELL, JACK BLAND, W. O. BYRD, WLLLIAM )
WOFFORD, WYLIE COX, Directors o f  the )
Morrilton School D is tr ic t  No. 32, and 
TERRY HUMBLE, Superintendent of Schools,

LR -65-C-103

MISS MARGARET SANDERS,

)
Defendants)

)

Intervenor.)

BE IT REMEMBERED, that the above en t it led  and 

numbered cause came on to be heard at L i t t l e  Rock, Arkansas 

on September 13, 1965, before Honorable J. Smith Henley, 

United States D is tr ic t  Judge, wherein the following proceed­

ings were had, to w it :

APPEARANCES:

For the P la in t i f f s :

For the Defendants:

For the Intervenor

MR. JOHN W. WALKER and MR. HAROLD 
B. ANDERSON, Attorneys a t Law, L i t t l e  
Rock, Arkansas;

MR. HERSCHEL H. FRIDAY and Mr.
ROBERT V. LIGHT, Attorneys at Law, 
L i t t l e  Rock, Arkansas;

MR. GEORGE HOWARD, Attorney at Law, 
Pine Blu ff ,  Arkansas.



3

p r o c e e d i n g s

THE COURT: Gentlemen of Counsel, we have this

morning 1965 Case C-103, Clement S. Smith against the 

Board o f  Education o f  Morrilton School D is tr ic t  No. 3Z,  

Dr. H. B. White, and others, with Margaret J. Sanders as 

an Intervenor.

Now, le ts see who represents the or ig ina l  

Petit ioner,  Clement S. Smith?

MR. ANDERSON: We do, Your Honor.

THE COURT: A l l  r ight, that w i l l  be Mr. Harold

Anderson, and is Mr. Walker with you?

MR. ANDERSON: Mr. Walker, Your Honor.

THE COURT: A l l  r ight, and who represents

Margaret J. Sanders, Intervenor?

MR. HOWARD: I represent her,Your Honor.

THE COURT: A l l  r igh t;  and who represents the

Board o f  Education o f  the Morrilton School D istr ic t?

MR. LIGHT: Mr. Friday and myself, Your Honor.

THE COURT: A l l  r ight.  Now, does Dr. White or

do any o f  the others have other counsel?

MR. LIGHT: No, s i r .

THE COURT: Very well .  Gentlemen, as you know,

we have had a complaint and an intervenor and other com­

plainant, and a number o f  motions; I*m not exactly  cer­



4

tain v/hat the parliamentary situation is ,  but I think i t  

would be best i f  we simply go ahead and hear what ever 

oral testimony there is to be o f fered, and then consider 

the whole ball  o f  wax at one time. I don’ t think there 

is any advantage in appearing in piecemeal. I t  might be 

helpful to the Court and to  opposing counsel i f  those on 

both sides would very b r i e f l y  state their  positions and 

what i t  is they think is r e a l l y  at issue. In doing so you 

can assume, Gentlemen, the Court has some fam i l ia r i ty  with 

the f i l e ,  and thus you need not gd into every deta i l ,  but 

I think i t  might be helpful to put the case in focus i f  

we have b r i e f  statements.

This w i l l  be Mr. Walker; and I be l ieve, Gentle­

men, probably i t  i s n ' t  necessary to report these opening 

statements - anybody want them r eported? I t  w i l l  just 

make expense on appeal, i f  there is an appeal.

MR. LIGHT: NNo, s i r .

MR. MR. WALKER: No, s i r .

MR. HOWARD: No, s i r .

THE COURT: Mr. G i lbert ,  you need not report

these opening statements.

(Opening statements.)

THE COURT: Who w i l l  be your f i r s t  witness for

the p la in t i f f s  and the intervenor?

MR. WALKER: Our f i r s t  witness, Your Honor, is



5

Superintendent Humble.

THE COURT: Will  you come to the stand, Mr.

Humble.

TERRY HUMBLE,

called as a witness by and on behalf o f  p la in t i f f s ,  being 

duly sworn, was examined and t e s t i f i e d  as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

Questions by Mr. Walker:

Q Will  you state your name, please?

A Terry Humble.

Q And are you a defendant in this lawsuit?

; A Yes, s i r .

j Q What is your occupation?

A I am a teacher.

Q What is your position in the defendant, Morril School

D is tr ic t  ?

A Superintendent o f  Schools.

Sj Q How long have you been Superintendent o f  Schools?

A L i t t l e  over two years.

Q Mr. Humble, w i l l  you t e l l  the Court what your educational 

training is?

A I ’ m a graduate o f  high school and received a BSC degree

from Arkansas State Teachers College major in history and 

minored in biology; received a Master o f  Arts Degree from



Terry  Humble - D irec t 6

George Peabody College for Teachers, with major in student 

instruction; I have further studied at the University o f  

Arkansas.

Q When was this further study at the University o f  Arkansas?

A 1 believe i t  started in 1964 and terminated this summer.

Q Now, up untilMay or June o f  1965 did the Morrilton School 

D is tr ic t  operate a high school for about 166 negro pupils 

in grades seven through twelve, called the Sullivan High 

Schoo1?

A Yes, s ir .

Q And did the d is t r i c t  operate a separate Junion High and 

senion high school for white pupils?

A Yes, s ir .

Q And isn ’ t i t  true that near the close of the 1964-65

school year the D is tr ic t  decided to close the Sullivan 

High Schoo1?

A Yes, s ir*

Q And - -

MR. WALKER: Your Honor, before I go further,

I would like to have this defendant, inasmuch as he is  a 

defendant, declared to be a hostile witness to our case.

THE COURT: Well, I think you’ re ent i t led  to

examine him as though he were. In fact I don’ t know 

whether he is or not, but under the Rule you would be en­

t i t l e d  to ask him leading questions and otherwise examine



Terry  Humble - D irec t 7

him as though he were host i le .

MR. WALKER: Thank you.

Q Isn ' t  i t  true that when you closed the Sullivan High

School a l l  o f  the Negro teachers at Sullivan were d is­

missed?

A Yes, s ir .

Q Now, i s n ' t  i t  true that at the time you dismissed those 

teachersyou did not attempt to compare their qua l i f ica ­

tions with those white teachers who were retained in the 

system - w i l l  you answer yes or no?

A Would you c l a r i f y  that question for me?

Q At the time that you dismissed the Negro teachers at the 

Sullivan High School did you or the Board attempt to com­

pare the quali f icat ions o f  those Negeo teachers with the 

white teachers who were retained in the system?

A No, s i r .

Q Isn ' t  i t  true that the quali f icat ions that one must

possess to teach in the Morrilton Public Schools are one 

who must possess a state teacher's license, including 

being over eighteen years of age and not over s ix ty  f iv e  

years o f  age, possess good moral character and believe 

in the Supreme Being, present a sat is factory  health cer­

t i f i c a t e ,  including a s tatement o f  being free o f  tubercu­

los is ,  and several other minor qua l i f ica t ions ,  including 

a c e r t i f i c a t io n  from the State Department of Education?



8

That's correct.

Now, did the Negco teachers - w i l l  you state the names 

o f  any Negro teachers who were at the Sullivan High School 

who fa i led  to meet those quali f icat ions?

There were none.

Isn ’ t i t  true that you recommended to the School Board 

that a l l  o f  those teachers be rehired in the Morrilton 

public School System for the next 1965-66 school term in 

February o f  1965?

Yes, s ir .

Isn ’ t i t  true that the School Board accepted your recom­

mendation and ten ta t ive ly  rehired a l l  o f  the Sullivan 

High School teachers for the 1965-66 school term?

Yes, s ir .

Isn’ t i t  true that the teachers at Sullivan were given 

contracts for the 1965-66 school term in January or 

February?

No, s i r ,  that is not true.

Were they weer given contracts for the 1965-66 school 

term?

No, s i r .

But they were hired by the Board?

Yes, s i r .

Now, Mr. Humble, on what day did you advise the Sullivan 

High School teachers that their  contracts would be termi­



Terry  Humble -  D irec t 9

nated?

A As 1 reca l l ,  Mr. Walker, i t  was May 28th.

Q Now, how did you advise them that their  contracts 

were being terminated?

A I wrote them a le t te r ,  each individual teacher, and dis­

cussed i t  with them.

Q How did you distribute this le tter?

A I gave i t  to each teacher personally.

 ̂ Q Isn ' t  i t  true you gave i t  to them personally on the same

day you had discussed with them about the reasons why the 

Sullivan High School was being closed?

A Yes, s i r .

Q I show you this le t te r ,  Mr. Humble, addressed to Mr.

Clement S. Smith o f  Morrilton, Arkansas, and ask you i f  

you recognize i t?  

i A Yes, s ir ,  I do.

MR. WALKER: 1 would like to have this marked

and introduced in the record, Your Honor, as P l a in t i f f s ’ 

Exhibit 1.

(Thereupon, the document a bove r eferred to 
was marked as P l a in t i f f s ’ Exhibit No. 1, 
for id en t i f i c a t io n . )

THE COURT: So marked i t  w i l l  be received.

(Thereupon, the document heretofore marked 
as P l a in t i f f s ’ Ejfaibit No. 1, for identi­
f ica t ion ,  was received in evidence.)

MR. WALKER: Now, I would l ike to have read into



Terry  Humble - D irec t 10

the record that Mr. Humble wrote Mr. Smith the following 

two sentence l e t t e r :

"Dear Mr. Smith:

I t  has become necessary to close the L. W. Sullivan High 

School because o f  decreased enrollment.

You are hereby not i f ied  that your job is abolished and 

that a contract for the School Year 1965-66 w i l l  not be 

of fered to you.

By: Terry Humble 

Superintendent o f  Schools."

MR. WALKER: As P la in t i f f s '  Exhibit 1-A, I

would like to have i t  described as 1;A, Your Honor, be­

cause i t  is a better written by the same defendant to 

Miss Margaret Sanders, one o f  the Intervenors.

Q Do you recognize this, Mr. Humble?

A Yes, s i r .

(Thereupon, the d ocument above referred to 
was marked as P la in t i f f s '  Exhibit No. 1, 
for id en t i f i c a t io n . )

THE COURT: Gentlemen, I think the witness has

te s t i f i e d  that on that same date he wrote the same, or 

substantially the same le t te r ,  to each o f  these teachers. 

Now, I ' l l  be happy for you to put a l l  the le t te rs  in the 

record, but in the circumstances I think one o f  them or 

two w i l l  probably be enough. I f  it w i l l  make you feel  

better le t  1-A be received.



Terry  Humble - D irec t 11

(Thereupon, the document heretofore marked 
as P l a in t i f f s 1 Exhibit No. 1, for id en t i ­
f ica t ion ,  was received in evidence.)

THE COURT: Lets see, 1-A is the le t te r  to

Miss - -

MR. WALKER: Sanders.

Q Now, isn ' t  i t  true that on May 28th you knew that there 

would be some vacancies in the white school during the 

next school year, due either to resignation o f  the white 

teachers or to the retirement o f  some white teachers?

A No, s i r ,  I did not know that.

Q Were there as o f  May 28th any vacancies what ever in the 

white high school?

A I don’ t r eca l l  a single vacancy on that date.

Q Did you advise the teachers at Sullivan that in case

positions did become available a t  the white junior high 

or senior high school that t hey would be e l i g ib l e  to 

make application for those positions?

A No, s i r ,  I did not.

Q Did you advise them that they could make application to 

teach in any o f  the white elementary schools?

A No, s ir .

Q A l l  r ight, Mr. Humble, w i l l  you t e l l  the Court how many 

white junior and senior high school teachers did actual­

ly  resign subsequent to May 28th, 1965, or ret ire?

A I would have to get my records.



Q I have here your response to p l a in t i f f s ’ interrogatory, 

which sets out that information in response to an in ter ­

rogatory submitted by us to you; would you look at those 

and t e l l  us the number o f  white teachers who did resign 

or re t i r e  subsequent to May 28th?

A Thirteen white teachers.

Q Isn’ t i t  true that since that time approximately th i r ­

teen white teachers have been hired to replace those 

thirteen who ret ired  or resigned?

A Yes, s i r .

Q Have you no t i f ied  any o f  the p la in t i f f s  or any o f  the

Negro teachers who were at the Sullivan High School that 

they were free to make application for those positions?

A No, s ir .

Q N ow, Mr. Humble, I have here the names o f  each white

teacher hired to teach in the Morrilton School D is tr ic t  

for the f i r s t  time in  1965-66 school year - by the way, 

have you o f fered any contract to anybody, to any white 

persons since you mailed these interrogatories to us?

A Yes, s i r .

Q You hav e ?

A Yes, s i r .

Q How many?

A One.

Q Would you give us that person's name?

Terry  Humble - D irec t  1Z



Terry  Humble - D irec t 13

A

Q

A

Q

A

Q

Robertha Jo Lackey.

THE COURT: L-a-c-k-e-y?

THE WITNESS: Yes, s ir .

THE COURT: Robertba Joe Lackey?

THE WITNESS: Yes, s ir .

For what grade was that person hired to teach?

The position in the senior high school, history position.

History?

Yes, s ir .

We would like to have the folder of that person made 

available to us.

I don’ t have that folder - - 

You do not have that?

- here, 1 don’ t be lieve.

Now, I show you the personnel folder o f  the teacher ap­

p l icat ion  form, a copy o f  i t  any way, which p la in t i f f s  

have made, o f  Miss Gloria Jean King; do you recognize

tha t?

Yes, s i r .

Is i t  a true copy?

Yes, s i r .

Now, I would l ike  for you to thumb through that and - 

f i r s t  o f  a l l ,  le t  me say th is :  You have hired Gloria 

Jean King and Katherine to teach English and perhaps 

speech in the white high school for this next school



14

year, isn ' t  that r ight?

A 1 recommended the e lect ion  o f  Miss King for senior high 

school and the e lect ion  o f  Miss Draper for junior high 

schoo1.

Q Now, you have Mrs. King's personal folder?

A Yes, s ir .

Q And I ask you isn ' t  i t  true that Mrs. King has a BA.

degree, teaching experience limited to s ix  hours practice 

teaching, no gradute credits ,  a college major in Speech 

and English, and that she receives a salary o f  $3850.00?

A I would distinguish between the B.A. to say that she 

should have a B. S. C. degree.

Q B. S. C. degree?

A Yes, s i r .

Q A l l  right.

A No, this l i s t s  a B. A. degree.

Q I t  is true she has those quali f ications?

A Yes, s i r .

Q Now, I give you a copy o f  Miss Katherine Draper's per­

sonnel form o f  teacher application, and a sk you isn ' t  i t  

true that she has a B. S. C. degree, absolutely no teach­

ing experience, no graduate credits and a major in 

physical education?

A Yes, s ir .

Q Now, I give you Mrs. Genevia Braswell 's personal! form,

Terry  Humble - D irec t



15

and state  to the Court that Mrs. Braswell is one o f  the 

dismissed Negro teachers at the Sullivan High School; now, 

I ask you, Mr. Humble, isn ’ t i t  true that Mrs. Braswell 

has a B. A. degree, fourteen years teaching experience, 

a l l  in Morrilton, twenty-two graduate cred its ,  a college 

major in English and i f  she received a salary o f  $3,620.00 

last year?

A I ’m not sure about the sa lary; the rest o f  the information 

I w i l l  say isessent ia l ly  correct.

Q You say essen t ia l ly  correct;  can you think of anything 

I have misstated?

A I ’ m not sure o f  the number o f  years experience,she had.

Q Well, i t  is stated on her form, w i l l  you take it ,p lease?

A I ’ m not sure, Mr. Walker, about the years o f  experience.

THE COURT: W ill  you speak a l i t t l e  louder? Try

to keep your voice pitched higher, Mr. Humble?

THE WITNESS: I ’ m not sure about the number o f

years experience, but I assume that this is essen t ia l ly  

correct.

Q And that is fourteen years?

A Yes, s i r .

Q Now, would you say - -

A Let me s tipulate that the annual salary shov/n here shows 

our last jffiar salary schedule and is d i f fe ren t  from what

Terry  Humble - D irec t

the salary would be this year.



16

Q Now, would you say that Mrs. Braswell 's teaching creden­

t ia l s  are in fe r io r  to those possessed by Mrs. Kind or 

Miss Draper - answer yes or no, please?

A 1 can’ t answer i t  that way.

MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I think that this

question is capable o f  being answer yes or no. He might 

explain i t  later .

THE COURT: I don’ t think he could give an un­

quali f ied  answer without some more adject ives in your 

question.

Q A l l  r igh t ,  le t  me put - -

THE COURT: I f  you want to le t  the question

stand I w i l l  le t  him answer i t  yes or no and then quali fy  

his answer.

:■ Q I w i l l  rephrase i t  a d i f fe ren t  way. Wil l  you say that on 1 

the basis o f  the information that I have read to you, and 

on that information alone, that Mrs. Braswell ’ s teaching 

credentials are in fe r io r  to those possessed by Mrs. King 

and Miss Draper?

THE COURT: Be more spec i f ic  than that. What

you've read; at leas;t what the Court's aware o f  so far 

is a statement o f  the formaleducation and years o f  ex­

perience .

Ml. WALKER: And college major.

Te r ry  Humble - D irec t

THE COURT: That’ s what I'm talking about,



Terry  Humble -  D irec t 17

formal education and years o f  experience. Isn ’ t that a l l  

you've mentioned ao far?

MR. WALKER: Yes, s ir .

THE COURT: Other than race?

MR. WALKER: For the most part, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Nov/, as far as formal education and

years o f  experience are concerned can you state whether 

the quali f icat ions o f  Mrs* Braswell are in fe r io r  to those 

o f  e ither Katherine Draper or Gloria King?

THE WITNESS: In fe r io r ,  yes, s i r ,  they are in­

fe r io r  .

THE COURT: Now, do you want to pursue that?

MR. WALKER: I would l ike  to have this introduc­

ed in the record, Your Honor, as P la in t i f f s '  Exhibit Z,  

a l l  three o f  these.

(Thereupon, the documents above referred 
to were marked as P la in t i f f s '  Exhibit 
No. Z,  fo r  id en t i f i c a t ion . )

THE COURT: T h a tw i l l  be the sheet o f  Gloria D.

King, Katherine Draper and Geneva Braswell?

MR. WALKER: That's right.

THE COURT: A l l  r ight.

(Thereupon, the documents above referred 
to and marked Exhibit Z,  for identi f ica­
tion, were received in ev idence , )

THE COURT: Now, whether you want i t  or not,

Mr, Walker, the Court wants to know why.



18Terry  Humble - D irec t

MR. WALKER: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I want a qua l i f ica t ion  of that

answer. Why, Mr. Humble, do you say t hat the paper 

quali f ications which the Court has mentioned - - 

THE WITNESS: Mrs. Braswell - -

THE COURT: Mrs. Braswell 's are in fe r io r  to

those o f  Mrs. Katherine Draper and Gloria King?

THE WITNESS: Mrs. Braswell is not quali f ied

to teach speech and that is the position Mrs. King is 

employed to teach.

MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I think that the de­

fendants' interrogatory response point up that Miss King 

was employed to teach speech and English, and that Miss 

Draper was employed to teach English in the junior high 

schoo1.

Q Am I in error?

A That's correct.

THE COURT: A l l  r ight, I think I understand i t .

Miss King was employed to teach English and Speech and 

Miss Draper employed to teach English?

THE WITNESS: Yes, s ir .

THE COURT: Does Miss Draper also teach

physical education?

THE WITNESS: No, s i r .

Q Now, - -



Te r ry  Humble - D irec t 19

THE WITNESS: But she hasan honor in English,

Your Honor.

Q Pardon?

A She has an honor in English.

THE COURT: Yes, I understood that.

Q Now, isn ’ t i t  true that you hired a Mr. Paul Cody and

Mr. Richard Reed to teach Mathematics and Physics at the 

senior high and junior high school there for t his school 

term?

A Not the way you sta te  i t ,  Mr. Walker, no, s ir .

Q They might have some other duties as w e l l ,  but isn ’ t i t

true essen t ia l ly  they had to  teach Mathematics and Physics?

A No, s ir .

Q What are they to teach?

A Mr. Reed was to teach Physics and Mathematics and Mr. Cody 

was to teach Mathematics and coash.

Q A l l  right, S ir ,  now, I hand you Mr. Reed’ s application or 

personnel form and ask you isn ’ t i t  true that he has a 

B. S. E. degree, two and one^half years teaching exper­

ience, no graduate cred it ,  a college major in Mathematics 

and that you w i l l  pay him this year a salary o f  $5,095.00?

A I f  you w i l l  stipulate that $945.00 o f  that is bus driving 

salary, yes, s ir ,  I ’ l l  so agree.

Q Now, I give you a copy of Mr. Paul Cody’ s personnel fo ld ­

er anda sk you isn’ t i t  true that he has a B. S. E. degree,



Te r ry  Humble -  D irec t 20

no teaching experience, no graduate credits and major in 

physical education and a salary o f  fo r ty  three hundred 

do 1 lars ?

A Again I -would have to stipulate that s ix  hundred dollars 

o f  that is for coaching duties.

Q But he is to receive a salary o f  $4300.00?

A Yes, s i r .

Q The other information is correct?

A Yes, s ir .  He also has a minor in Mathematics.

Q Now, I hand you a copy of Miss Margaret Sanders' personnel

form, and I ask you i f  i t  is  not - -

THE COURT: Just a minute. What does Mr. Cody

coach?

THE WITNESS: Junior high foo tba l l  and basket­

ba ll .

Q I give you a copy o f  Mrs. Sanders' personnel form and ask 

you i f  i t  i s n ' t  true that Mrs. Sanders has a B. S. E. 

degree, the equivelent o f  a B. S. degree in Mathematics,

34 jears teaching experience, o f  vfoich 33 have been in 

the C ity  o f  Morrilton, a college major of Mathematics, 

and last year she was paid a salary o f  $3620.00 by the 

School D is tr ic t?

A I don't think this is correct.  This personnel form was

f i l l e d  out in 1964 and I think her annual salary would be 

larger than this.



Terry  Humble -  D irec t 21

Q I f  she had been retained by you?

A This is an old personnel form, so i t  wouldn’ t r e f l e c t  

fe st year ’ s salary; this 63-64 school year, the 64-65 

school would have an increased salary; this salary is  

an old salary, that 's  year before last salary.

Q Do you have her folder with you?

A Yes, s i r .

Q I would l i k e  to check t hat. May I see her personnel 

fo lder.

(Witness gets document from counsel table and 

passes to counsel.)

Q I w i l l  ask you to look through this fo lder and t e l l  the 

Court vfaether there is anything therein to indicate 

whether you paid her last year more tftan $3,620.00?

A Mr, Walker, i t  wouldn't be in this f i l e  m y way, i f  that 

is what you're looking fo r .  I'm not sure what her salary 

was last year, but she should have had an increase over 

the year before, which is  the year this form covers; so 

I'm not sure what her salary is.

Q I f  I to ld  you that she says last year she received 

$3,620.00 would you disagree with that?

A I f  that 's  what she said I wouldn't disagree with i t ,  no.

Q Now, I have stated to you paper quali f icat ions o f  Mr.

Cody, Mr. Reed and MissSanders, would you say that Miss 

Sanders' quali f icat ions to teach Mathematics are in fe r io r



Terry  Humble - D irec t ZZ

to those possessed by Mr. Cody and Mr# Reed?

A To teach Mathematics they would not be.

Q Would you say that Miss Sanders’ quali f icat ions to teach

Mathematics in either the senior high school or the junior 

high school are inadequate?

IA No, s i r .

MR. WALKER: I vo uld like to have these person­

nel forms introduced into the record as p l a i n t i f f i ’ Ex- 

h ib it  No. 3.

(Thereupon, the document a bove referred to 
was marked as P l a in t i f f s ’ Exhibit No. 3, 
for id e n t i f i c a t io n . )

THE COURT: This w i l lbe  those o f  Mr. Reed and

Mr. Cody - -

MR. WALKER: And Miss Sanders.

THE COURT: As P l a in t i f f s ’ Exhibit 3?

MR. WALKER: That’ s r ight, Your Honor.

THE COURT: So marked and they w i l l  be received.

(Thereupon, the documents heretofore marked 
as P l a i n t i f f s ’ Exhibit No .3 ,  for id en t i­
f ica t ion ,  was received in evidence.)

Q Now, did you advise Miss Sanders that she could apply for 

a job in one o f  the white high schools?

A No, s i r .

Q Have you attempted to compare Miss Sanders’ quali f icat ions 

with those o f  any o f  the white teachers who teach Mathe­

matics in either the junior high or senior high school?



jj A Yes, s i r .

Q Which teachers?

A Mr. Cody and Mr. Reed.

Q I mean any o f  the teachers who were teaching prior to 

May 28, 1965?

A No, s i r .

Q You've made no e f f o r t  to do so; would you say that her 

quali f ications - -

A You're talking a bout people employed at that time?

Q Yes, s i r .

A No, s ir ,  I have not.

Q Would you say on the basis o f  your Mmowledge o f  the

quali f ications o f  those teachers who are \qhite who are 

now teaching in the white junior high or senior high 

school are in fe r io r  to those white teachers?

A Miss Sanders’ - -

Q Would you say Miss Sanders' quali f ications are in fe r io r  

to those white teachers now teaching and w ere teaching 

in 1964?

A In what a reas?

Q In Mathematics?

A No, s ir .

Q Now, I hand you the teacher application o f  Mr. Ph i l l ip  

Fagan, who has been employed by you to teach science in 

the white junior high school for 1965-66 school term,

Ter ry  Humble - D irec t  23



Terry  Humble - D irec t 24

and 1*11 ask you isn ' t  i t  true that he has a B. S. E. 

degree, one year teaching experience, six graduate 

credits and a college major o f  Social Science?

; A Yes, s ir .

Q He lias a col lege major o f  Social Science and he is em­

ployed to teach science?

A Yes, s i r ,  but he has an honor in Biology.

Q Now, I show you the personnel form o f  p l a in t i f f  Clement 

Smith, who is one of the dismissed teachers at Sullivan 

High School, and a sk you i s n ' t  i t  true that Mr. Smith has 

a B. S. degree, seven years teaching experience, twenty 

six graduate credits , a college major o f  Chemistry, and 

that he was paid a salary last year by the D is tr ic t  o f  

$3,820.00?

A I'm not positive o f  the salary; the rest o f  i t  I agree to.

Q Would you say, Mr. Humble, that Mr. Fagan's teaching

quali f ications as a Science teacher on paper were superior 

to those possessed by Mr* Smith?

A You're ta lk ing about on paper?

Q Yes, s i r .

A On paper they are in fe r io r  to Mr* Smith.

Q Would you also say that Mr. Cody's and Mr. Reed's quali­

f icat ions were superior to those o f  Mr. Smith as a Mathe- 

matics teacher?

A In what w ay, on paper or - -



Te r ry  Humble - D irec t 25

Q On paper, tha t ’ s -what we’ re talking about?

A No, their quali f ications on paper to teach Mathematics

are not necessarily superior to Mr . Smith's.

Q Isn ’ t i t  true that on paper Mr. Reed’ s, Mr. Cody’ s

quali f ications are in fe r io r  to Mr . Smith’ s as a Mathe­

matics teacher?

A As a Mathematics teach, on paper, yes, that ’ s correct.

MR. WALKER: I would like to have th is  intro­

duced in the record, Your Honor.

THE COURT: This is Fagan - -

MR. WALKER: Fagan and Smith.

THE COURT: As P l a in t i f f s ’ Exhibit what?

MR. WALKER: Exhibit 4.

(Thereupon, the documents above referred to 

were marked as P l a i n t i f f ’ s Exhibit No. 4, 

for identi f ica t ion .: }

THE COURT: So marked, they w i l l  be received.

(Thereupon, the document heretofore marked 
as P l a in t i f f s ’ Exhibit No. 4, for id en t i­
f ica t ion ,  werer eceived in evidence.)

Q Did you ever advise Mr. Smith that he could apply for a

job in the white school?

A No, s i r .

Q Now Mr. Humble, you have hired Miss Elaine Houston, Mrs. 

Thetus H i l l  and Mrs. Ira Robertson to teach Geography 

and Social Studies in the white junior and senior high



school?

A Mrs. Iva Lee, yes, s i r .

Q Now, I hand you the application form o f  Mrs. Elaine Hous­

ton and ask you is n ' t  i t  true that Mrs. Houston has a B.A. 

degree, six years teaching experience in elementary school 

rather than high school, an elementary c e r t i f i c a t e  at a 

time she was hired, twelve graduate credits and a college 

major o f  elementary education?

A That's not quite correct, Mr. Walker; she was in a junior 

high school in Louisiana, or a t least an elementary school, 

they didn't havethe same provision we had; she was in an 

elementary school in the upper leve l ,  which also includes 

junior high school.

Q I might want to come back to  that.

A I quote from this, i t  is Lee Jr. high school in Monro,

Louisiana.

Q Nevertheless, she had last year an elementary c e r t i f i c a te ?

A Yes, s i r ;  we have elementary c e r t i f i c a te s  in junior high 

school in the State o f  Arkansas; we have e ither.

Q But is theo ther information bas ica l ly  correct?

A Yes, s ir ,  that is correct.

Q What was her salary, Mr. Humble?

A In Louisiana or here?

Q Her, how much did you contract to pay her this ^ear?

A What ever her salary schedule is;  I'm not pos i t ive  o f

Te r ry  Humble -  D irec t  Z6



27

that; we ha/e a single salary schedule fo r  a l l  teachers.

MR. WALKER: Incidentally, Your Honor, since

defendant just mentioned that point that they have a 

single salary schedule for a l l  teachers, we want to o f f e r  

proof to show that negro teachers in Morrilton, Arkansas 

have h is to r ic a l ly  and through the fe st school year been 

paid lower salaries on the average than have white teach­

ers, that there have been dual pay schedules for white 

and Negro teachers in that D is tr ic t .

THE COURT: I ' l l  le t  you show i t ,  but inasmuch

asthe Negro school closed don't you imagine that has be- 

come moot?

MR. WALKER: There are s t i l l  Negro teachers,

Your Honor, in the system who are in the elementary grades, 

and I do think that the teachers stand to represent a l l  

teachers in the D is t r ic t .

THE COURT: Are you saying Negro teachers are

s t i l l  paid at a lower salary schedule regardless o f  the 

school in which they teach?

MR. WALKER: I think that w i l l  be the proof,

Your Honor. We would 1 ike to so amend our complaint 

pursuant to Rule 15(a) and 15(b) o f  the Federal Rules o f  

C iv i l  Procedure.

THE COURT: Lets not amend i t  just yet. You

ask for r e l i e f  for i t ;  I'm le t t ing  you put on your proof I

Terry  Humble - D irec t



and I may or may not l e t  you amend your complaint a f te r -  

wards.

MR. WALKER: That is a l l  right, Your Honor.

Q I now hand you Mrs. Thetus S t e l l ' s  personnel form and ask 

you isn ' t  i t  true that Mrs. S t e l l  has a B. S. E. degree, 

three years teaching experience in elementary schools, 

an elementary c e r t i f i c a t e  and a master's degree in e le -  

mentary education?

A Well, feet me check this, Mr. Walker. She has 29 hours in 

social studies, she has a masters degree, her major sub­

ject  is elementary education, her minor subject is social 

studies, with 47 hours in a l l ,  and she does have I think 

at this time she does have a secondary c e r t i f i c a t e ,  but 

I'm not pos it ive  o f  that; as 1 indicated ea r l ie r  - -

Q But at the time of her application she had a six year 

elementary c e r t i f i c a te ?

A At the time o f  her application, but that 's  been changed 

since that time, i f  I'm not badly mistaken, I think she 

has a secondary c e r t i f i c a t e  at this time.

Q You think, that 's  not - -

!A Well, I signed an application form for her to receive the 

secondary c e r t i f i c a te  from the State Department o f  Educa- 

tion.

MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I would l ik e  to move

to str ike al 1 o f  his response as to what he thinks he has

Terry  Humble - D irec t  ZB



Te r ry  Humble - D irec t 29

u until  such time as we can look at her record and ascertain 

whether or not she does have a secondary c e r t i f i c a t e .

THE COURT: I don't think i t  is necessary to

strike i t ,  although I w i11 le t  you look for i t .  Your 

motion w i l l  be overruled.

THE WITNESS: Mr. Walker, a s I stated, we may

use either elementary or secondary c e r t i f i c a te s  in junior 

high schools in the State o f  Arkansas.

Q Now, I show you Mrs. Robertson*s personnel folder and ask 

you i f  i t  isn ’ t true that Mrs. Robertson has a B. S. de­

gree, teaching experience limited to substitute teaching, 

an elementary c e r t i f i c a t e ,  no graduate cred it ,  a college 

major o f  elementary education?

A No, s i r ,  tha t ’ s not correct.

Q AH rights, lets go over i t  a gain. She has a B. S. de­

gree?

A I'm not sure she doesn’ t have a masters degree a t  this 

time.

Q Lets confine i t  to the t ime she made the application.

A A l l  r ight, S ir .

!! Q Teaching experience - -

A The date is not on her, i f  you notice, i s n ' t  on the ap­

p l icat ion  fCrm.

Q But she was hired to teach in the school system the f i r s t  

time this year?



30

A No, Mrs. Robertson started in the school system, I ' l l  say, 

two years prior to this.

Q Was she a permanent teacher?

A No, s ir ,  she wasn't; yes, she was a permanent teacher but 

her position was terminated.

Q I show you page two o f  her application wherein she states 

her prior teaching experience, and ask you i f  i t  isn ' t  

true that she states that she has been a substitute teach­

er in Morrilton during two years?

A As I told you ea r l ie r ,  that 's  an old form and the date is 

not on i t ;  that 's  not correct.

Q Isn 't  this the form you provided us the other day as to

persons making application to come in for the f i r s t  time?

A That's r igh t ,  but this is not her f i r s t  time in the system.

Q But f o r t  he record she was a substitute teacher?

A I guess you'd have to say that, yes, s ir .

Q I hand you the personnel fo lder o f  P h i l l ip  O. Jones, and

ask you isn ' t  i t  true - inc identa l ly  he is one o f  the dis­

missed negro teachers - and ask you isn ' t  i t  true that he 

has a B. A. degree, one years teaching experience, a high 

school c e r t i f i c a t e ,  no graduate cred its ,  a college major 

o f  social science?

A Yes, s i r ;  he may have more than one year teaching ex- 

perience, I'm not pos i t ive  about that.

jQ Now, would you say that Mr. Jones' quali f icat ions to

Terry  Humble -  D irec t



Te r ry  Humble - D irec t 31

teach Geography and Social Science are in fe r io r  to those, 

on paper now, are in fe r io r  to those o f  Miss Houston?

A May I see Mrs. Houston's form, I believe you have i t?

Q I think I 'v e  given a l l  o f  them back to you.

A Mr. Walker, I don't believe Mrs. Houston's quali f ications 

are complete on this form. No, I wouldn't say that his 

is superior.

Q I did not ask that. Would you say that his are in fe r io r  

to those o f  Mrs. Houston?

A I'm not posit ive for I don' t  have her complete record here,

Q On the basis o f  the record that you have before you would 

you say his quali f icat ions are in fe r io r  to those o f  Mrs. 

Houston?

A Well, I don't know, Mr. Walker.

Q On the basis  o f  the information you have before you?

A I have more information than this.

Q I'm sure you do, but we haven't been given that.

THE COURT: Evidently the answer must be that

he cannot say that they are.

THE WITNESS: On what is  here - state your

question again, please.

MR. WALKER: Would you mind reading the question

back?

THE COURT: The question is whether P h i l l ip  0.

Jones' quali f icat ions to teach social science, social



Te r ry  Humble - D irec t 32

studies and Geography are in fe r io r ,  paper quali f icat ions, 

on the basis o f  the information you have before you on 

these forms, whether his quali f icat ions to teach those 

studies are in fer io r  to those o f  Mrs. Houston?

THE WITNESS: On the basis o f  what is here the

ansv/er is no.

i; Q Would you say that his quali f icat ions to teach geography 

and socialstudies are in fe r io r  to those o f  Miss S t e l l ' s ?

A Yes.

Q On what basis?

A Mrs. S t e l l  has more hoursin h istory than he has reported, 

and social studies.

Q What is her major?

A Elementary education, but she has 47 hours in social 

studies.

j  Q But isn ' t  his major - -

A According to the information he has here I think he has 

twenty six hours in h istory or in social studies.

Q I count upa to ta l o f  fo r ty  two.

A That is correct.

Q Now, would you say that his quali f ications on paper are

in fe r io r  to those o f  Mrs. S t e l l ' s ?

A Yes, s ir .

Q On what basis?

A She has 47 hours, an d s ome graduate hours.



33Terry  Humble - D irec t

Q But her teaching experience is limited to elementary 

schoo1?

A No, s ir ,  that is not correct.

Q That is what i t  shows on her form?

1A Well, that 's  incorrect. As I stated, these are old forms,

and she has taught in the junior high school.

Q Will you provide us with the later form?

A This is the la test  form I have.

Q On the basis o f  the forms you have she has never taught 

in junior high?

A No, s i r ,  that ’ s nott correct.

Q She has a six year elementary c e r t i f i c a te ?

A Yes, s ir ,  that ’ s right. On the basis o f  this form, i t  says 

school in which you teach i t  says, she has marked junior 

high school, for assignment she has 7th grade geography.

Q Does that mean for  the 1965-66 school year?

A No, s i r ,  this was January 9, 1964; r ight here is the date.

■ Q Do you have later forms for any o f  these teachers?

, A No, s i r ,  we have a supplemental form that goes with this 

personnel form.

Q But you did not make those supplemental forms available 

to us?

A They are not in their fifes; some o f  them do have and some 

of t hem don’ t .

J But w e did ask for  that information, didn’ t we?



34Terry  Humble -  D irec t

You asked for a f i l e .

But you did not provide a complete f i l e ?

I provided you as complete a f i l e  as 1 had.

Would you say that Mr. Jones' quali f icat ions to teach 

geography and soc ia l  studies are in fe r io r  to those o f  

Mrs. Robertson?

Yes, s i r .

Q Why?

A Mrs. Robertson has more teaching experience than Mr. Jones 

has.

Q Is that the only reason?

A She also has a similar number o f  hours.

Q How many?

A No, she has fewer hours.

: Q She has fewer hours?

| A Yes.

Q But that is  a c r i t e r ia  for evaluating teachers, i s n ' t  i t?

II A That is one c r i t e r i a ,  yes.

Q Did you advise Mr. Jones that he could make an application, 

that he should make an application to teach in the white 

schools i f  hewanted to continue working for the Morri l-  

ton School D istr ict?

A No, s i r .

MR. WALKER: I would l ik e  to have these forms

together marked as P l a in t i f f ' s  Exhibit 5, and introduced



35

into the record.

(Thereupon, the documents above referred to 
were marked as P la in t i f f s '  Exhibit No. 5, 
for id en t i f ic a t ion . )

THE COURT: So marked, they may be received.

----- (Thereupon, the documents heretofore marked
as P l a in t i f f s '  Exhibit No. 5, for identi­
f ica t ion ,  w ere received in evidence.)

MR. WALKER: Now, Your Honor, I have taken the

l ib e r ty  of,  for each person about whom I have asked Mr. 

Humble, setting out in a short form the information that 

I have e l i c i t e d  from him, and I think that we have set 

out the teachers in that same form; and I would like to 

have this looked a t by defense counsel, and i f  there 's no 

objection as to i ts  accuracy, would 1 ike to have i t  in­

troduced into the r ecord as P la in t i f f s '  Exhibit No. 6.

(Thereupon, the document above referred 
to was marked as P la in t i f f s '  Exhibit No.
6, for id e n t i f i c a t io n . )

MR. WALKER: This i s so le ly  for - -

THE COURT: Very we l l ;  do you want to take a

or two to look over i t?

MR. WALKER: We can introduce i t  la ter ,  Your

I'm almost finished with this witness.

THE COURT: A l l  r ight.  What is the number?

MR. WALKER: That w i l l  be P l a in t i f f ' s  Exhibit

Terry  Humble - D irec t

minute

Honor;

No. 6.

THE COURT: I t  w i l l  be received ten ta t ive ly ,



36Terry  Humble -  D irec t

and Mr. Light, i f  there is any objectionable material in 

i t  you can have an opportunity to object when you start 

your cross examination.

(Thereupon, the documents heretofore marked 
as P l a in t i f f s ’ Exhibit No. 6, for ident i­
f ica t ion ,  was received in evidence.)

Q I w i l l  run through this hurriedly. Mr. Humble, I w i l l  

ask you whether Mrs. Helen Oliver is qua l i f ied  to teach 

Home Economics in the Morrilton High School system?

THE COURT: Mrs. Helen Oliver?

MR. WALKER: Mrs. Helen Oliver ;  she is one o f

the dismissed Negro teachers?

THE WITNESS: No, s i r ,  she was not.

Q Isn ' t  i t  true that you recommended that she be rehired, 

that she be hired to teach in the school system for the 

1964-65 school year?

A I t  is true that I did.

Q Isn’ t i t  true further that you also in January or Febru­

ary recommended to the Board,that the Board accepted your 

recommendations, that she be retained in the school 

system for the 1965-66 school year?

A That is correct.

Q Thank you; but none the less ,  she is not qualified?

A Yes, s ir ,  that ’ s r ight.

Q But you recommended that an unqualified person be retained 

in t he system?



Te r ry  Humble - D irec t 37

A As to the recommendation o f  the high school principal, I 

did, yes, s i r .

Q Would you mind making available to me at this time the 

rating chart o f  the high school principal o f  a l l  the 

teachers in the high school, that is Principal King, as 

well  asthe principals o f  the white high school?

MR. LIGHT: Your Honor, that raises a legal

question; Ifr. Walker and I had some d i f f i c u l t y  with - out­

side o f  the Court - the c ourt 7/111 note 31 swers to the 

interrogatories propounded to the Board by the P la in t i f f s ,  

and which answers were served and f i l e d  last Friday, a l ­

though our time would not have been up until  tomorrow, 

i t  is noted w ith  respect to interrogatory No. 5, which 

was most comprehensive and burdensome, that by agreement 

o f  the parties a l l  the information cal led for in that in­

terrogatory was supplied to Mj,* Walker last Thursday in 

my o f f i c e .  At that time he requested - I'm sorry, last 

Friday - at that time he requested that we supply him 

with a l l  o f  the records o f  every teacher in the Morrilton 

School D is tr ic t ,  including the highly essential and con­

f iden t ia l  data contained on princip les '  evaluation reports 

on these teachers; and we declined to furnish that  - that 

is the f i rs t  time he requested that - and I declined to 

furnish that to him because i t  is not relevant for him 

to make a wholesale exploration through that confidential



38

date fora l l the  teachers in th is  school d is t r ic t .

GfHE COURT: Gentlemen, I haven't gone into i t ,

o f  course, but while I think i t  may be relevant to know 

what the pr inc ipa l 's  evaluation was o f  each teacher, 

balancing the consideration and relevancy and admissibil­

i t y  on t he one hand, I have a l i t t l e  problem about a dmissi- 

b i l i t y ,  with a reluctance to go unnecessarily into some­

what private personnel matters, and to say the least, I'm 

inclined to inquire, Mr. Walker, whether this isn ' t  some­

thing you can do without?

MR. WALKER: Well, Your Honor, the defendants - ■■

THE COURT: I am reluctant to publacize the

evaluation, which is bound to be confidential to a degree 

that one supervisory employee places upon another; and 

this doesn't have anything to do with race or color at 

a l l .  This would be a problem in any such situation. Per­

haps we better discuss i t  a b i t  in Chambers. No need to 

encumber the record with this discussion.

Court w i l l  be in recess about f ive  minutes.

(Short recess. )

THE COURT: You may continue.

MR. WALKER: Thank ysu.

Would you read the fest question back to Mr. 

Humble, please?

THE COURT: Gentlemen, the Court w i l l  not require

Terry  Humble - D irec t



39

the rating charts o f  the principa ls  to be made available 

at this time. The Court would be most reluctant, and 

w i l l  be most reluctant to go into personnel dataof the 

teachers in the system as a whole; unless the Court thinks 

i t  becomes absolutely necessary for the purposes o f  this 

case the Court widiply w i l l  not do i t .

You may continue your cross-examination; and i f  

the answers are not en t i r e ly  sa t is fa c to ry  you may renew 

your request or requests for some one or a l l  o f  these 

rating charts; and the Court may or may not grant your 

renewed request.

Q Now, I ask you - we were talking about Mrs. O liver,  who 

is a Home Economics teacher - when the 166 Negro pupils 

were transferred to the white junior and senior high 

school weren’ t some o f  them or a large number of them 

expected to take Home Economics in either one o f  those 

schooIs ?

A 1 don’ t know, Mr. Walker.

Q Wasn’ t Home Economics a required course in the Negro high 

schoo1?

A I d  on’ t know.

Q Isn ’ t Home Economics a highly recommended course in the 

white high school?

A Yes, s i r .

! Q And most female students do take Home Economics?

Terry  Humble - D irec t



Terry  Humble - D irec t 40

A No, s ir .

Q Do you have information to show that most don't?

A The only  information I have is where North Central reports 

require less than 150 students in the classes and we meet ; 

those requirements so our teachers would have 150 or less. 

Q Where is  the Home Economics taught, in senior high school?

A ten, eleven and twelve.
_

j] Q That is the senior high school?

||A Yes, s ir .

Q What is your enrollment in the senior high school, in the 

white senior high school, before the 166 Negro students 

were taken in?

A Approximately 450.

Q ZOO of these, approximately ZZ5 are female?

A That would be a safe guess.

Q So at least 150 of those took Home Economics?
|i
A No, s i r ,  I wouldn't say that.

Q Would you say - what you are saying - -

THE COURT: He is saying fewer than 150 took i t .

|i Q You are saying fewer than 150?

'A  Yes, s ir .

Q Now, wouldn't most o f  these Negro pupils have taken Home 

Economics in the Sullivan High School?

A I don't know, Mr . Walker.

Q But ord inar i ly  wouldn't the addition o f  thisnumber of



41

female students to a high school require the addition of 

perhaps at least one teacher to teach a course?

A 1 don't know that i t  would, but Mrs. Oliver resigned any 

way; she told me she didn't want to come.

Q When did she resign?

A I don’ t know, but I have a l e t t e r .

Q Didn't you send her a le t ter  o f  dismissal before she re- 

signed?

I A Yes.

Q She was dismissed rea l ly?

A But she indicated, she declined her appointment.

Q Well, did you o f fe r  her an appointment a f te r  she was d is ­

missed?

A I did in February, and she sent me a le t te r  back stating 

that she declined.

MR. WALKER: I would l ike a copy o f  that le t te r

to be introduced; you need not get i t  r ight now, Mr. 

Humble, we can get i t  later.  I would like to have in tro­

duced into the record Mrs. O l iv e r ’ s personnel form, and 

this w i l l  be p l a in t i f f ' s  Exhibit seven - p l a i n t i f f ' s  Ex­

hib it  6.

THE COURT: No, P l a in t i f f ' s  Exhibit 6 was a

l i s t  o f  quali f icat ions o f  severa l  people handed to Mr. 

Light; I don't know i f  they wver got to the Clerk or not.

MR. WALKER: I t  was received subject to objec-

Terry  Humble - D irec t



4ZTe r ry  Humble - D irec t

tion.

THE COURT: I t  was ten ta t iv e ly  received as No.

six, so this w i l l  be number seven.

(Thereupon, the document above referred to 
was markeda s P la in t i f f s '  Exhibit No. 7, 
for id en t i f i c a t io n . )

THE COURT: Let i t  be received.

(Thereupon, the document heretofore marked 
as P la in t i f f s '  Exhibit No. 7, for ident i­
f ica t ion ,  was received in evidence.)

1 Q Now, 1 show you Mrs. Zeophus King's personnel fo lder;  -

THE COURT: Who is this, now?

MR. WALKER: Mrs. Zeophus King.

Q Is that the correct pronunciation, Sir?

A I don't know, I ca l l  her Mrs. Hymond King.

Q I ask you isn ' t  i t  true Mrs. King has a B. S. degree,

twenty seven years teaching experience, a high school 

teacher's c e r t i f i c a t e  and training a nd experience as a 

librarian?

A She has a bachelor o f  science and home economics degree, 

and she has worked as l ibrarian in Sullivan High School.

Q Isn 't  she qual i f ied  as a librarian?

A Yes, s i r ,  she is.

Q Isn ' t  she more quali f ied than a t  least one o f  the white 

librarians in the white public school?

A I don't know, Mr. Walker, I would have to check and s e e .

Q Have you not t e s t i f i e d  ea r l ie r  in a deposition that she



Terry  Humble -  D irec t 43

was better prepared, better quali f ied on paper at least 

than one of the white librarians?

A I don't remember whish one, I - -

THE COURT: W ill  you refresh his memory i f  you

can find i t ,  Mr. Walker?

MR. WALKER: Yes, Your Honor.

THE WITNESS: She is better qua l i f ied  on paper

possibly than the junior high school, i f  that 's  the one 

you're re ferr ing  to.

Q That's r ight,  Mr. Humble.

A That junior high school l ibrarian was employed prior to

the time that these teachers were dismissed. She was em­

ployed in February, at the same time Mrs. King was em­

ployed to t he position at Sullivan, for that junior high 

school job.

: Q She was employed in February o f  1965?

A Yes, s ir .

Q Mrs. King has been librarian prior to February, 1965?

A Yes, s i r ,  but shevas recommended to be the l ibrarian at 

Sullivan High School for 1965-66 school year.

Q None the less ,  Mrs. King had served as l ibrarian in the 

Sullivan High School prior - -

A Yes, but we had no way o f  knowing that we would close

Sullivan High School at the time I recommended this lady 

as librlaman appointment.



Terry  Humble - D irec t 44

I None the less, Mrs. King was superior in quali f icat ions to 

this white lady?

A Yes, s ir ,  but the - - 

Q Thank you.

A - vacancy came about afterwards.

|q Have you sp e c i f i c a l ly  had any other s ta f f  people to work 

in the l ib rary  o f  either white high schoolsince that per­

son was hired?

A  No, s i r .

MR. WALKER: I would like to have Mrs. King's

personnel fo lder introduced into the record as P la in t i f f s '  

Exhibit 8.

(Thereupon, the document a bove re ferred  to 
was marked a s P la in t i f f s '  Exhibit No. 8, 
for id en t i f ica t ion . )

THE COURT: Let i t  be received.

(Thereupon, the document heretofore marked 
as P la in t i f f s '  Exhibit No. 8, for id en t i ­
f ica t ion ,  was received in evidence.)

} Now, I hand you the personnel folder o f  Mr. John Sutton,

one o f  the Negro teachers dismissed from Sullivan High

School, and I ' l l  ask you is n ' t  i t  true that he has a B.S.

degree, twenty two years teaching experience, a high schoo

c e r t i f i c a te  to teach vocational agriculture, A M. A. degre

in Agriculture from the University  o f  Arkansas?

\ I believe that 's  an M. S. degree.

3 An M. S. degree?



Terry  Humble - D irec t 45

A Yes, s ir ,  i t  says her M. S.

Q Thank you. Is he quali f ied to teach Agriculture?

A No, s i r .

Q But he has an M. S. degree in Agriculture and he lias a 

B. S. degree in Agriculture and he is not quali f ied to 

teach?

A No, s i r ,  Mr. Sutton's experience is such that he i s  not 

quali f ied to teach in any school.

||Q But d idn 't  you recommend that Mr. Sutton be hired for the

1964-65 school year?

A Subject to his - -

Q 1964-65 school year?

A Yes, s i r .
•--------------------------------

Q And didn 't  you also recommend in February this year that 

Mr. Sutton be rehired to teach in the Sullivan School?

A Just a minute, Mr. Walker, the 64-65 school year he was 

employed ten ta t ive ly  subject to his cleaning up his per­

sonal appearance and taking care o f  the class room situa­

tion in a better manner than he had been taking, and our 

records so r e f l e c t  that.

JQ Nonetheless, you did recommend that he be rehired?

A No, s i r ,  I recommended on a tentative basis, and a f te r  Mr. 

Sutton told me that he would do that, an d he t o ld  the 

principal that he would do that, yes, s ir ,  I recommended 

he be reemployed.



46

Q Didn’ t you recommend also th a t  he be hired for the 1965-66 

school year?

A Yes, s ir ,  I did.

Q A l l  r i g h t ,  now, isn ’ t there a need for an Agriculture 

teacher in the white high school?

A We have one position and we have a need for one teacher 

and we have one teacher; and those classes arenot fu l l  

this year .

Q You say you have a need for one teacher?

|a  Yes. s i r .

Q And that position is f i l l e d ?

|a  Yes, s i r ,  we have one teacher in that position.

Q Wouldn't the admission o f  more than one hundred students, 

lets say about eighty f ive  students to  a school system 

require the addition o f  at least one s t a f f  person?

A I t  did not.

Q Would you say Mr. Sutton's agricultural credentials are

in fe r io r  to those in the - to those possessed by the white 

high school teacher?

A Yes, s i r ,  I would.

Q What are the white high school agricultural credentials?

A He has some th ir ty  jears experience, he has a bachelor's 

degree, a Master's degree, both in agriculture, and one 

o f  the most outstanding agri teachers in the s ta te .

Q Would you provide us with his personnel folder?

Te r ry  Humble - D irec t



47Terry Humble - Direct 

A Yes, s i r .

Q Not now, I w i l l  look at i t  during the recess. Now, isn ' t

Mr. Sutton academically prepared to teach any other subject
■

in the Morrilton schools?

A According to this form I w i l l  say that he is academically 

prepared to teach science.

Q Did you attempt to compare his quali f ications with those 

o f  any white science teacher in the junior high-senior 

high school?

A No, s i r ,  for I wasn't interested in Mr. Sutton because o f  j 

his personal appearance.

!' Q Nonetheless, you did permit him to stay at the Negro high 

school, d idn 't  you?

A Only on the recommendation of the Negro principal.

Q How can we t e l l  when you took action only on the recommen-i 

dation o f  the Negro principal or on your own recommenda­

tion, or without the recommendation o f  the Negro principal? 

A  I don't know that there is any way to t e l l  except to sub- 

poeana Mr. King.

'■ Q Would King be able to explain your action?

|! A Yes , s ir .

MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I would like to in tro ­

duce this as P l a in t i f f s '  Exhibit No. 9.

( Thereupon, the d ocune nt a bove referred to 
was marked as P la in t i f f s '  Exhibit No. 9, 
for  id en t i f i c a t io n . )



48

THE COURT: That’ s the - -

MR. WALKER: Application o f  Mr. Sutton.

THE COURT: Let i t  be received.

(Thereupon, the document heretofore marked 
as P l a in t i f f s ’ Exhibit No. 9, for iden t i­
f ica t ion ,  was received in evidence.)

THE COURT: Is that the application showing his 

qua l i f i  cations?

MR. WALKER: Yes.

l! Q Mow, lets go to Mr. Smith for  a moment. Do you think Mr.

, Smith is a capable teacher?

A No, s ir .

Q On what do you base your opinion?

A Several reasons, Mr. Walker. One reason, I don’ t think 

he has classroom control and management that he should 

have as a f i r s t  rate teacher, or even as a good teacher.

' Q On what do you base that opinion?

A I base that opinion on the f a c t  that I have observed him 

in the classroom by my presence in the room, I have ob­

served in his classroom by my presence outside o f  his open 

door, and by the discussion that I ha/e had with his 

superior, Mr. Hymond King, Principal o f  the Shool.

I! Q How many times have you been in his classroom?

1 A I have been in his classroom once or tw ice .

! Q Didn’ t you t e s t i f y  once before that you were there only 

once ?

Terry  Humble - D irec t



Terry  Humble - D irec t 49

A Yes, s ir ,  I expect I did.

Q How long were you there?

A I was in there about f iv e  or ten  minutes.

Q Have you ever given Mr. Smith a teacher test?

A No, s ir ;  neither have I given i t to any other teacher.

Q Have you ever seen his score on the NationaITeachers' 

exam?

'i A No, s i r .

Q Have you ever heard any complaint about his a b i l i t y  to 

d iscip line in the classroom by the teachers other than 

Mr. King?

kedp

THE COURT: Teachers rather than from the

principa1?

MR. WALKER: From the teachers. I ’ l l  come to the

principal in a minute.

THE WITNESS: I have had complaints channeled

to me from parents, supposedly parents o f  the children.

Q Did you keep a record o f  those?

A No, s ir ,  I did not.

I Q Do you know the names o f  those parents?

|i A No, s i r ,  I do not. They were anonymous telephone ca l ls

from people who did not id en t i fy  themseIves.

Q How many anonymous telephone ca l ls  did you received about

Mr. Smith?

A I w i l l  say two or three.



Q Over what period o f  time?

A I w i l l  say over a period o f  a year’ s time.

Q They were anonymous?

A Yes, s i r ,  they were.

Q Have you ever sought the opinion o f  anyone else abdiut Mr. 

Smith’ s teaching ab i l i ty?

A No, s i r .

Q Did Mr. King rate Mr. Smith as an e f f i c i e n t  teacher?

A I don’ t have his rating chart here. As I reca l l  he rated

him average on most accounts, aboveaverage on a few and 

below average on one or two.

Q May I see his rating chart?

A Yes, s i r .

(Document passed to counsel.)

Q Now, on this teacher evaluation form Mr. King suggested 

that Mr. Smith be retained in the school system, isn ’ t 

that true?

A Yes, s i r ,  that 's  correct.

Q Isn ' t  i t  also true that Mr. King fctated that Mr. Smith was 

prepared excently for his position?

A Yes, s ir  - on that piece o f  paper­

ed On that piece o f  paper, did he ever t e l l  you anything to

the contrary?

A Yes, s i r .

Q Well, now, do you have anything in the record to show that

Terry  Humble - D irec t  50



51

Mr. King told you that?

A No, s i r ,  unfortunately when I deal with many o f  these

people i t  is not in the record.

Q So that i t  could be for our purposes that Mr. King did- j

n 't  t e l l  you that?

A That's correct.

Q I w i1 la sk you isn 't  i t  true Mr. Smith is rated either

excellent, above average or average teacher in almost a l l  

respects, a l l  except three, o u t o f  approximately f i fteen?|

A He had seven average, s ix  above average, one excel lent,  t jo  

below average and one unsatisfactory.

Q That is three, three out o f  seventeen?

MR. WALKER: You Honor, is i t  - I 'd  l ike to

ask Your Honor's advice about having this introduced in 

the record, since we've had some discussion about this?

THE COURT: Is this Mr. Smith one o f  the p la in­

t i f f s ?

MR. WALKER: Yes, s i r .

MR. LIGHT: We have no objection, Your Honor.

However, we would like to have i t  copied and the or ig ina l

returned for the School D is tr ic t  records.

THE COURT: Are there any personal notes of an^

kind on i t?

MR. WALKER: " I  suggest his retention", in Mr.

Hyrnon King's handwriting apparently.

Terry  Humble - d i r e c t



Terry  Humble - D irec t 52

(Thereupon, the document a bove r eferred to 
was marked as P l a in t i f f s ’ Exhibit No. 10, 
for id en t i f i c a t ion . )

THE COURT: Without objection i t  w i l l  be received

in evidence, i f  both o f  you want i t .  1 may say, Gentlemen, 

that this is no indication of what the Court may do about 

the large bulk o f  the teachers’ personnel sheets.

MR. WALKER: A l l r ig h t ,  P l a i n t i f f s ’ Exhibit No.

10, subject to having i t  returned to Mr. Light.

THE COURT: Yes; w i l l  you make a c o p y o f  that and

return it to M . Light. I t  is  received.

(Thereupon, the document heretofore marked 
as P l a in t i f f s ’ Exhibit No. 10, for i d e n t i f i ­
cation, was received in evidence.)

Q Nov;, Mr. Humble, a re you aware that Mr. Smith has attended 

summer sessions in Natural Science Foundation Institute at 

least for the last seven years?

A As I reca l l  the record, Mr. Walker, I have been told that 

but I don't think that he has anything on record in his 

f i l e  concerning that.

Q A l l  r ight.

|A I may be mistaken a bout that.

Q Are there any white teachers in the system who are less 

well prepared than Mr. Smith to tepch e i thers  cience, 

physics or chemistry in the Morri l l ton public schools?

A  Are there any teachers less well prepared than Mr . Smith?

iQ Yes.



Terry  Humble - D irec t 53

A You talking about paper iqua l i f  ications ?

Yes, I would say we havesome that have paper qua l i f ica ­

tions that a re - -

Q In fer ior?

A - in fer io r  to Mr « Smith's.

Q Would you think that Mr. Smith would be able to obtain a 

c e r t i f i c a t e  from the State Department o f  Education c e r t i ­

fying him to teach high school chemistry, physics or 

general science?

A I think he could c e r t i f y  in chemistry and general science;

I don't think he could physics.

Q I f  I to ld you that the c e r t i f i c a t io n  requirements o f

I l l i n o i s  and Arkansas were the s ame insofar a s teaching 

high school physics go would you disagree with me?

A I wouldhave to go by what the Arkansas regulations are,

Mr. WaIke r .

Q Would you disagree with my statement?

A I don't know what I l l i n o i s  are; I think they are in fe r io r  

to our, is what I think.

Q That they are in fer io r?

A Yes, I think so, so far a s the number cf hours are concern­

ed for c e r t i f i c a t io n .  I know that 's  true w ith  North 

Central bedause I 'v e  served on the reviewing committees 

o f  the North Central Association.

Q So you think a person being c e r t i f i e d  by I l l i n o i s  to



Terry  Humble - D irec t 54

Q

A

Q

A

Q

A

Q

A

Q

teach physics would not be c e r t i f i e d  by Arkansas?

Yes, s ir ,  I think that is correct.

MR. WALKER: For the record, I would like to

have i t  stated that Mr. Smith is c e r t i f i e d  by the State 

o f  I l l in o i s  to teach high school physics, chemistry and 

general science.

THE COURT: You are stating i t  for the record,

I don’ t know thatw e have any evidence l ike that.

MR. WALKE3 Your Honor, we w i l l  introduce i t  

later when Mr. Smith is put on.

THE COURT: I f  you do the Court w i l l  consider it

Now, leet us §o §o your elementary school situation for a 

moment. Isn 't  i t  true that you operate a Negro elementary 

school called the Sarah Clark School for a l l  Negro pupils' 

That 1 s correc t .

Isn’ t i t  true that school is s ta f fed  by a l l  Negro teacherq? 

That is correct.

Isn ’ t i t  true that you o f fered Mrs. Sanders a job to teach 

in that elementary school this year?

That’ s correct.

Isn ’ t i t  true that she d idn 't  apply for that job?

That is correct.

Isn’ t i t  true that you’ ve been saying that in order for a 

person to get a job teaching in the Morrilton public 

school system that one had to apply?



55

x

A That is correct.

Q Now, what are your teacher desegregation plans?

A According to our desegregation plans, we w i l l  recruit and 

accept applications from teachers without regard to race, 

color or creed.

Q You didn't draw up that plan, did you?

A Did I draw the plan?

ij Q You or the Board?

i A No, I d idn 't  draw the plan.

Q You picked i t  up from the A. P. W. o f f i c e ,  didn't you? 

jA Yes, s ir ,  that 's  correct.

Q And you've never even considered i t  by the Board, have you 

I A. Yes.

Q I mean prior to formal ly adopting it?

A Yes, s i r .

Q Prior to formally adopting i t?

A Yes, certa in ly  we hav e discussed i t ,  Mr. Walker, we d is­

1 Terry  Humble - D irec t

?

cussed i t  before we formally adopted i t .

Q I have inquired o f  you about this once before, and I think 

your testimony at that time that the Board just accepted 

the whole plan without going into the teacher desegrega­

tion aspect o f  i t ;  do you reca l l  i t?

A I don't r e c a l l  that.

MR. WALKER: I beg the Court's indulgence for a

moment. I w i1 lbring i t  out on re-cross, Your Honor, be­



Terry  Humble - D irec t 56

cause i t  involves quite a b i t  o f  testimony.
| ■■■! »>
I Q Now, do you have any spec i f ic  plans for desegregating the 

elementary teachers in the Sarah Clark School into the 

whole school system next f a l l  when desegregation at the 

elementary leve l  occurs?

A Mr. Walker, I assume th^t they are in our school system.

Q I say integrate them, reassigning them from that Negro 

school into - -

A Mr. Walker, I ’ d like to keep our s t a f f  together as a work­

ing team, and we don’ t have any plans to move either white 

or Negro teachers indiscriminately around to make a better 

group out o f  them. We fe e l  the facualty is  a working group

Q What do'you mean when you say we w i l l  undertake expeditious 

ly  as possible undertake a complete desegregation o f  teach­

ers and s ta f f ?  What do you mean?

A Just l ike wliat we said, that we w i l l .

Q That means you are going to leave the Negro elementary

teachers in the school where they are and the white teach­

ers in the school where they are, the elementary school?

A We don’ t have any plans to move anybody unless they say 

something to us about i t .

Q So you don’ t have any plans to desegregate - -

A No, s ir ,  I didn't say that; I said we didn’ t have any
• . 1 ■ '-*■ .. t

plans to move these s t a f f  members around.

Q What is your understanding o f  desegregation o f  the teach­



ing s ta f f?

A What ismy understanding? That the s t a f f  w i l l  be desegre­

gated as the occasion ar ises. I t  is not my understanding 

that we need to go in and take out so many people out o f  

one school and put so many into that same school, and go 

around l ike that. I don’ t think that that is good school 

administration on the part o f  anybody.

Q What i f  most o f  the Negro pupils in the Sarah Clark school 

express preference for  the white elementary school, what’ s 

going to happen to those negro teachers?

MR. LIGHT: Your Honor, - -

THE WITNESS: You are trying to make me look into

the future; I don’ t know.

Q Do you have any plans for that situation since you’ ve 

just had this situation?

A Yes, we do have. One o f  themwould be to announce to them 

that they apply. That's one o f  the things that you told 

ne we should have done, and that ’ s whatwe 're  going to do, 

Mr. Walker.

Q Didn't you t e l l  the other teachers that they could apply 

for jobs in - -

A No, s ir ,  I didn't t e l l  the other people.

Q So you’ re going to require the teachers at the Sarah Clark 

School in case their jobs are abolished to appjy for posi­

tions at the school to which you are going toassign their

Terry  Humble -  D irec t  57



e r r y  Humble - D irec t 58

pupiIs ?

A I f  they want a job i t  seems to be that they should apply.

Q Under Arkansas lav; aren’ t you required to assign teachers

as the need arises?

A Yes, s i r .

Q I read you Sec. o f  Arkansas Statutes, Vol. 7, sec. 81-2- 

3-4, - and this i s  just fo r  the record, Your Honor:

"Local Boards of Education shall have the authority 
to assign and reassign or transfer a 11 teachers in 
schools within their ju r id ic t io n . "

Are you going to require these teachers to make new appli­

cations to teach in a system for which they have already 

been employed to teach in?

A Mr. Walker, when we abolish a job I would interpret that 

to mean that they would need to apply to us to  secure 

another job.

Q What job is going to be abolished?

A I don’ t know. You are trying to make me project what job 

w i l l  be abolished.

Q You abolished the s ame - -

A Yes, s ir ,  we abolished the Sullivan High School jobs.

Q But you had new teachers ever there?

A No, s ir ,  at that time we did not have new teachers.

Q But you are not going to vo luntar i ly  assign these Negro

teachers ?

A They have been dismissed.



59

Q When Sarah Clark is desegregated you are not going to

vo luntar i ly  assign those Negro teachers ever to the white

schoo1?

A No, s i r ,  we w i l l  recruit them, just like i t  ca l ls  for,
9 9

just l ike the plan ca l ls  for .

q You te s t i f i e d  before that i t  is necessary for a person in 

order to get a job in the school system to make an app l i ­

cation for i t ,  but then you went ahead and you also o f f e r -  

ed Miss Sanders a job to teach in the elementary school 

without her having made application; how do you explain 

tha t?

A We needed a teacher and I was recruit ing, just l ike our 

po l icy  cal Is f o r . 

i: Q You were recruting?

; A Yes, s ir .

Q Did you talk to her - -

, A 1 attempted to talk to her and never was able to contact 

her; I l e f t  my name with her s is ter  on one occasion and 

asked her to ca l l  me.

Terry  Humble - D irec t

Q How about Mrs. King?

A Mrs. King?

Q Didn’ t you o f fe r  her a job?

A Yes, s ir ,  I suredid, we recruited her.

Q Were you recruiting on a non-discriminatory basis?

A Yes, s ir ,  1 was trying to find any teacher that 1 could



Terry  Humble - D irec t 60

A

Q

Q

A

Q

A

Iq
A 

Q 

IA 

Q
A

II Q 
' A

Q

A

Q

f ind .

Didn't you have some white teachers whomade application 

for jobs who were not a ssigned to one o f  the white schools; 

who were not hired to teach in the system?

Tell  me that again, please.

Did not you have some applications from some white teach­

ers to teach in the Morrilton public schools?

Yes, s ir .

That were rejected by you?

They weren't conssidered to - -

But nonetheless, you didn't considerp utting one o f  those 

white teachers in there?

Yes, s ir ,  1 sure did.

But you decided against it?

No, s ir ,  I couldn't get one to go.

Which one did you ask?

I don't reca l l  which ones 1 asked.

Do you have any record to show that you did ask them?

No, s ir ,  I don't.

Well, I ts  your word that - - 

Tha t ' s right.

Is your professional s ta f f  segregated?

In what sense?

Do you have any Negroes on your profession al s ta f f ,  e ither 

in professional jobs or secretar ia l  jobs?



61

A I assume that a l l  our teachers are professional, yes, s ir ,  

we have - -

THE COURT: Mr. Walker, for the Court’ s enlight-

ment, what d<i you mean by his professional s ta f f?

MR. WALKER: I mean the persons who work in his

administrative o f f i c e ,  the persons who work d ire c t ly  be­

neath him as perhaps the assistant superintendent or the 

supervisors.

Terry  Humble - D irec t

A

Q

A

Q

THE COURT: Who do not also teach?

MR. WALKER: Who do not also teach.

THE COURT: Do you have any people like that?

THE WITNESS: No, s i r .

Do you have any plans to desegregate your professional 

s ta f f?

THE COURT: 1 think he is saying he does not havje

any professional s t a f f .

THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor; I misunderstood

that question. Yes, s i r ,  we have a business manager and 

we have a maintenance supervisor and have a lunchroom 

supervisor, and I believe those are a l l .

You have a lot  o f  secretaries?

I have one s ecretary.

These other people haw e secretaries?

No, s ir ,  they do not have. We are just a smallschool.

You just have one c le r ic a l  person?



Terry Humble - Direct 6Z

A In my o f f i c e ,  yes, s ir .

Q Is that s t a f f  desegregated?

A No, s i r .

Q Do you have any plans to desegregate it?

A Yes, s i r .

Q
When?

A This f a l l .

Q How?

A Through the National Youth Corps, I believe i t  is . Its

this federal program where they work; we're due to have

twenty students.

; q You going to have --

A Twenty young people work for us, and 1 anticipate some

o f  those w i l l  be Negroes.

Q Doing what ?

A C ler ica l  work or ass ist  - -

Q In your o f f i c e?

A ©p teachers or work on school grounds and paint the build-

ing and that kind o f  - -

i Q In your o f f ic e?

A Yes, s ir ,  I anticipate one in my o f f i c e .

Q But you don't plan to have any fu l l  time professional

s t a f f  people working in your o f f ic e?

A I don't have a vacancy now.

! Q I'm not talking about vacancies.



63

A I'm not adverse to that, i f  that 's  what you're trying to 

get at.

Q You don't have any plans to do i t?

A 1 have plans to accept applications as they come.

Q Do you have an y plans to make known that a Negro person

can make an application and - -

IA I don't make i t  known that I ’ m looking for a secretary 

when I do tha t .

;; Q How do you go about - -

A I haven’ t had to look for a secretary since I had thet

position.

Q i f  you had how would you do i t?

A 1 might have contacted Draughsn's Business School or some 

school in L i t t l e  Rock.

i q Isn 't  i t  true that a l l  students in Draughan Business 

School are white?

A I don't know whether that 's  true or not. I have also con- 

tacted Pe t i t  Jean Vocational Technical School, an d I under­

stand i t  is a desegregated school.

|| Q But as o f  now you don't have any plans for desegregation 

o f  your professional s t a f f  or for your ele mentary school 

grades ?

I A For what?

j Q For your professional s t a f f  or for  your elementary school 

grades ?

Terry  Humble - D irec t



64Terry  Humble - D irec t

A No more than is written in our desegregation plan.

MR. WALKER: That's a l l  from this witness,

Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Light, since this examination

has been in the nature o f  cross-examination the Court w i l l  

not require you to use this witness in your case in ch ie f  

at this moment; that is i f  youwant to him soe further

questions now 1 w i l l  permit you to, but I wont require you 

to. I f  you think i t  w i l l  be more orderly  to reca l l  him 

at a later or put him on that w i l l  be sa t is fac to ry .  How- 

ever, i f  you wish to put on what would be in the nature 

o f  red irect at this time the Court w i l l  le t you do so.

You gray think about i t ,  and we w i l l  go get lunch; i t  is 

now 12:35. Gentlemen, is there any reason why we could- 

n it  get back at 1:30, since we have a few minutes leeway, 

i f  you are four o r f i v e  mintues ever i t  w i l l  be sa t is fac tory ,  

but we 're  running a l i t t l e  late, lets  t ry  to get back at 

1:30 or 1:35, i f  poss ib le .

(Court w i l l  be i n recess.-i)



AFTER RECESS

(Pursuant to taking recess for lunch, Court re­

convened at 1:30 o 'c lock, P. M.)

THE COURT: Who w i l l  be the next witness?

Mr. Light, I guess f i r s t  we have to decide 

whether you want to ask Mr. Humble any questions at this 

time.

MR. LIGHT: With the Court's indulgence I w i l l

reserve my examination.

THE COURT: Very well .  Who w i l l  be your next

witness, Gentlemen?

MR. HOWARD: Miss Margaret Sanders.

MISS MftRfiARET J. SANDERS,

called as a witness on behalf o f  P la in t i f f s ,  being duly 

sworn, was examined and t e s t i f i e d  as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

Questions by Mr. Howard:

IQ Please state your fu l l  name to the Court?

|A Margaret J. Sanders.

Q Mrs. Sanders - -

THE COURT: Just a moment. Mtss Sanders, w i l l

you try  to keep your voice pitches high enough that a l l  

who are interested may hear you, please?

THE WITNESS: Yes, s ir .

Margaret Sanders - D irec t  65

Q



P

A

Q

A

Q

A

Q

A

Q

A

Q

A

Q

Mi s s

Miss .Sanders, where do you l ive?

1 l ive  at Blackwell, Arkansas.

And how long have you been a resident of Blackwell?

F i f t y  eight years.

And you have been teaching i n the Morrilton School D istr ic t?  

Yes, s ir .

Let me ask you something about your church a f f i l i a t i o n ;  are 

you a church member?

Yes.

Where? Where do you belong to  church?

St. Matthew Baptist Church in Blackwell, Arkansas.

I would like for you to advise his Honor o f  your education­

al background, s tarting with your high school; f i r s t ,  where 

did you attend high school?

I attended high schoolat Arkansas Baptist College.

That is here in L i t t l e  Rock?

Margaret Sander s - D irec t  66

A

Q

A

Q

A

Q
A

Q

Yes.

And where did you do your college work?

I did i t  part ly  at A M & N College and Arkansas State 

Teachers College.

Is that at Conway?

Conway.

When did you receive your bachelor degree?

In 1945.

At what institution?



67

A A M & N College, 

j Q Wh^ was your major?

A My major was education.

Q Now, have you done any advanced work?

A Yes, s i r .

Q Will you go ahead andr elate to the Court the inst itu -

tions, the years and the amount, number o f  hours you have 

acquired at the various institutions in your a dvaneed 

study?

A In 1957 I received - 1954 I received seven hours in

mathematics from Arkansas - from Philander Smith College.

Q Philander Smith College?

A Yes.

Q Which institu tion is located in L i t t le  Rock?

A In L i t t l e  Roc k.

Q A l l  r igh t ,  what other institutions haveyou attended?

A I attended A M & N College, did post graduate work there,! 

and I got eleven hours at A. M & N. College in 1957.

Q A l l r  ight, any other institutions?

A Yes, I went to the University of Arkansas and I received 

nine hours in mathematics.

Q What year did you attend the University?

A  1961, and in 1961 I went to the University o f  I l l i n o i s ,

Chicago University i t  was.

Q How many hours have you acquired at this institu tion?

Margaret Sanders - D irec t



68Margaret Sanders - D irec t

j A Three hours.

Q Is that also in mathematics?

A Yes.

|| Q How, I would like to go back to the v ery beginning of

your teaching career; where did you f i r s t  commence teach-

ing?

; A I started at my home, Blackwell Elementary School.

' Q What grades did you teach?

ii A I taught third and four grades.

1 Q And how long did you teach?

A ®ae year.

Q From there where did you go?

| A To a school in the Morrilton D is tr ic t  called Willow Bend.

jj Q What grades did you teach there?

A First through eight grade.

Q How longwereyou there?

:: A 1 was there approximately eight years.

! Q And at the end o f  that period where did you go?

A I went to Osceola and taught in the Osceola High School.

Q And how many yearsdid you teach there at Osceola?

A Five.

Q Five years?

A Yes, s ir .
_

Q Is that your f i r s t  year entering the high school department? 

A Yes, and I taught mathematics there.



Margaret Sanders - D irec t 69

Q And you taught mathematics there?

A Yes.

Q What year did you start at Osceola, a gain?

A 1945 I think itv/as.

Q '45, and you taught there f iv e  years?

A Yes s

Q And after  you te f t  Osceola where did you go?

A I came back to the Morrilton School D is tr ic t .

Q A l l  r ight,  now, what did you teach a f t e r  returning to the 

Morrilton School D istr ic t?

A Well, I taught mathematics and social science.

Q What year did you return to the Morrilton School D is tr ic t?  

A 1949.

Q L949 ?

A Yes.

Q Now, since that time you have been teaching in the high 

school department?

A Yes. s i r .

Q And you have been t eaching - - 

A Mathematics.

Q Mathematics; now, do you have a teachers c e r t i f i c a te  issued 

by the State Department o f  Education?

A Yes, I do.

Q May I have i t ,  please.

(Document passed to counsel.)



70

Q I would l ike for you to re fer  to the c e r t i f i c a t e  and ad­

v ise  the type o f  c e r t i f i c a t e  that you have?

A 1 have a s ix  year high school c e r t i f i c a t e .

Q Do you havethe to ta l number of hours that you accumulated 

since the reception o f  you rbacher lo r 's  degree; is i t  so 

designated on your high school c e r t i f i c a te ?

A No, s ir ,  i t  is not.

MR. HOWARD: I f  Your Honor please, we would l ike

to introduce this c e r t i f i c a t e ,  and with permission of  the 

Court and counsel for defendants, have a cdpy made and 

permission to withdraw the o r ig ina l .

THE COURT: You may introduce the c e r t i f i c a t e

with leave to withdraw the or ig ina l and substitute a copy. 

Do you need a copy o f  both sides, or only the face?

MR. HOWARD: Just one side, Your Honor.

THE COURT: A l l r i g h t ,  and that w i l l  be - can w e |

keep these altogether; cm this be P la in t i f f s '  Exhibit 11?

MR. HOWARD: Yes, Your Honor.

( Thereupon, the document abover eferred to 
was marked a s P la in t i f f s ' Exhibit No. 11, 
for id en t i f i c a t io n . )

THE COURT: Lets see, this witness, I believe, 

is an intervenor; you may number i f  P l a in t i f f s '  Exhibit 

11; and you may withdraw i t a nd substitute a copy at 

your convenience.

(Thereupon, the document heretofore marked | 
as P la in t i f f s '  Exhibit No. 11, for identi­
f ica t ion ,  was received in eviddnce.)

Margaret Sanders - D irec t



Margaret Sanders - D irec t 71

Q Now, Miss Sanders, I would l ik e  fo r  you to go back to the 

f i r s t  part o f  '65 and advise  the Court whether or not you 

had any conversations or a conversation with the Superin­

tendent or any members of the Board regarding your status 

as a teacher in the Morrilton School D istr ic t?

A No, I haven’ t .

Q You weren’ t advised that you would be rehired?

A No.

Q During the f i r s t  part - -

A Oh, yes.

Q - part o f  ’ 65?

A Yes.

Q Would you go ahead and r e la t e  to His Honor the nature o f  

this conversation?

A They sent us a le t te r  s ta t ing  i f  we would accept employ­

ment, reemployment, and so I angered the le t te r  and 

stated that I would accept - -

Q Employment?

A Employment as a mathematics teacher.

Q For the 1955-66 school term i s that correct?

A Yes.

Q Now, did you receive any further communication or d id you 

have any further conversation with any o f  the defendants 

a f te r  you received that le t te r?

A No. Do you mean - -



Margaret Sanders -  D irec t

Q At any time.

A A fte r  they gave rne a le t te r  o f  dismissal?

Q At any time a f te r  you had received this le t te r  informaing 

you that you had the opportunity to seek employment for 

another year and you responded in the a f f irmative  that 

you did want employment?

A Yes.

Q When did you receive any further communication from the 

defendant ?

72

J¥ Well, now, the Superintendent came to our school.

Q Could you give me the approximate date?

A The 28th.

Q Of what month?

A Of May.

<3 1965?

A 1965.

Q A l l  r ight,  go ahead.

A A l l  r ight, he to ld  us that they had abolished the Sullivan

High School.

Q That's the Negro high school?

A Negro, yes, and that our serv ices would be discontinued; 

and so I said to him, you don't te l lme; I asked him does 

that mean that we r e a l l y  d idn 't  have a job for the coming 

year;he says yes, Miss Sanders; and he said he was sorry; 

and I asked the question, and then I sa id  you don't t e l l



Margaret Sanders - D irec t 73

me you have employed your teachers and didn’ t see f i t  to 

give us a job; he says yes, Miss Sanders; and 1 says I 

would have f e l t  better i f  you had just given one person 

or somebody, i f  i t  wasn’ t me, i f  you had given some o f  us 

a job in the school, in your school. I asked him what 

did he have to o f f e r ;  he sa id  nothing; and so then a fter  

that I went on, 1 said,Miss King came, she says Mr. Humble

Q ^hat is the Superintendent?

A That is the Superintendent.

Q A l l r ig h t .

A Said isn ’ t that the pattern that they use in the Southern 

states; she s ays do you know anyother school that have 

employed some Negroes in the South; he says well he d idn ’ t 

know, but he thought i t  was the pattern, he didn’ t know 

o f  any school that had employed any Negro teachers;and so 

I started to  say to him but I didn’ t ,  couldn’ t they - - 

MR. LIGHT: Your Honor, - -

Q I don’ twant you to t e s t i f y  what you started to say; 1

just want you to t e s t i f y  to just what you actually  told 

him, andwewant to k now his response.

A Well,  could I bring in what Mrs. King sa id?

Q Was Mr. Humble present?

A Yes.

Q Go right ahead.

A Mrs. King a sked him wasn’ t  that the pattern, and he said



Miss Margaret Sanders -  D irec t 74

he didn'tksnow o f  any other schools that had employed Nego 

teachers; but he said he didn't know what they would have 

to do in Morrilton because they had not been approved o f  

federal aid;and so that was the end o f  our conversation; 

and then he handed to us the statement o f  the le t te r .

Q The statement o f  the le t te r  you're speaking a bout is the 

le t te r  which was the le t te r  introduced e a r l i e r  advising 

you that your position had been abolished?

A Yes.

Q Is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And is that the f i r s t  notice that you received?

A Yes.

Q That you would no t  be rehired?

A Yes.

Q But prior to that time i t  is your testimony that you had

been led to bel ieve you did have a job for  the 65-66 school 

term?

A That's r ight.

Q Now, what else transpired during this conversation you had 

with the Superintendent?

A Then, there wasn't anything else that, you know, he handed 

us the le t te r  and then he l e f t ,  I don't r emember, and 

something came up, 1 don' t r emember what i tw a s ,  but i t  

brought about a l i t t l e  b it  o f  laughter, but I can't r e ­



Margaret Sanders - D irec t 75

member what i t  was.

Q Let me ca l l  your attention to another factor .  What were 

your plans for  the summer o f  1965?

A I had planned to go to the University  of Arkansas and 

study during the summer.

Q You were going to study what subject?

A Mathematics.

Q You were continuing your a dvaneed study in mathematics?

A Yes.

Q Did you so pursue this course o f  study?

A Well, no.

Q Why not?

A 1 didn't have the money; and usually why I didn't have

the money, you k now I have so many b i l l s  and things l ike 

that, I was trying to pay my b i l l s  and I tr ied  to get a 

loan from the Dyal Finance Company, so they wrote me - - 

THE COURT: Tried to get a loan from which

company?

THE WITNESS: Dyal Finance, and they o f fered me a

loan, but I had to send my contract and I didn't have a 

contract.

Q Now, had you had any d i f f i c u l t y  in previous years in 

securing loans?

A Well, as  far as Morrilton is  concerned I never was able 

to get - -



Margaret Sanders - D irec t 76

Q What I'm asking you, my question, I thought you t e s t i f i e d  

you didn't get this loan because you didn 't  have a con­

tract?

A That's r igh t .

Q My question was, did you have any d i f f i c u l t y  in  the past 

in getting a loan?

A No.

Q Why not?

A Because I had a contract.

Q Now, what other d i f f i c u l t i e s ,  i f  any, did you rea l ize  as 

a result o f  not having a contract?

A Well, 1 had to go out then and t r y  to make out the best 1 

could and t r y  to seek other employment and things o f  that 

s o r t .

Q Have you been able to acquire other employment?

A Well, no, not exactly; ten ta t iv e ly  1 worked some at the 

Menifee High School.

Q Is that a Negro school?

A Negro school.

Q And whafce is that located?

A Menifee, Arkansas.

Q How far is that from Morrilton?

A Well, i ts  about twenty two miles, about f i f t e e n  miles.

Q Let me put i t  this way: How far is  that from your home?

A About twenty two miles.



Margaret Sanders - D irec t 77

Q Twenty two miles from your home?

A Yes.

Q Do you so have that position now at the Menifee School?

A No, just ten tat ive ly ,  because - -

Q You don’ t have a contract with this d is t r ic t?

A No.

Q You just working on a limited basis?

A That’ s r igh t .

Q What sort o f  salary are you receiving?

A Well, i ts  better than what the Morrilton D is tr ic t  - they 

had given me three thousand, six hundred seventy dollars, 

they o ffered that.

Q That is Mini fee?

A Yes.

Q What were you gett ing at Morrilton last year?

A I was gett ing three thousand, s ix  hundred seventy dollars.

THE COURT: Just a minute. I believe there is

a l i t t l e  misunderstanding here about where this f igure 

belongs. You got three thousand six hundred seventy dol­

lars the h st year you worked at Morrilton?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: How much do you get a Menifee?

THE WITNESS: Three thousand s ix  hundred th ir ty ,

I don’ t know exactly, because I haven't had the contract 

to sign and - -



Margaret Sanders - D irec t 78

THE COURT: Have you been paid?

THE WITNESS: No, you know school has just started.

Q Lets get at i t  another way. I think His Honor is in teres t­

ed in knowing just what - -

THE COURT: What I'm interested in knowing is

the amounttof dif ference, i f  there is any.

MR. HOWARD: Yes, s i r ,  that is  whatw e would 1 ike

to bring out, i f  Your Honor please.

Q What are you supposed to get per month at this Menifee 

Schoo 1 ?

A I'm supposed to get three thousand, s ix  hundred and may 

be seventy dollars.

Q My question is ,  i f  you know, what are you supposed to get 

per month at the Menifee School?

A A l l  right, three hundred and - -

Q Let me - -

A Three hundred ninety f i v e  do l la rs .

Q Three hundred ninety f i v e  dollars per month?

A Yes.

Q Provided you accept the position?

A Yes.

Q What were you gett ing per month at the Morrilton School?

A I was getting four hundred f i f t y  f i v e  dollars and - let

me see, Four hundred f i f t y  f i v e  dollars and f i f t y  six cents/

Q Four hundred f i f t y  f i v e  dollars and f i f t y  s ix  cents?



Margaret Sanders -  D irec t 79

A Yes.

Q That is what you were gett ing a t  the Morrilton School?

A Yes.

Q La s t year ?

A Yes.

Q That is the 64-65 school term?

A No, that is  this year that they o f fered to me; I was getting 

four hundred eight dollars last year, plus the last month 

they gave me four hundred and six dollars.

Q A l l  r ight, le ts  go over this again. I f  you are able to 

seek employment at Menifee you w i l l  get Three hundred 

ninety f iv e  dollars per month?

A Yes.

Q Last year at the Morrilton School you got four hundred 

and eight dollars per month, is that correct?

A Yes.

Q Now, how do you commute to the Menifee School, do you 

drive dailey?

A Yes.

Q From Blackwell?

A Yes, I do.

Q Do you have your own automobile?

A Yes.

Q And what time are you required to get up in order to be 

at school on time?



Margaret Sanders - D irec t 80

A Well, to be at school I am supposed to be there about

8:20, and, therefore, I get up around a bout s ix  o ’ clock, 

and every thing, ar a l i t t l e  before six.

Q A l i t t l e  before s ix  in order to be - - 

A At Menifee.

Q - in time for the opening o f  school?

A Yes.

Q When you were teaching at the Morrilton School what was 

your distance, that is from your home?

A Sixteen miles.

Q Sixteen mi le s ?

A Yes.

Q And while ago you pulled something out o f  your handbag, 

what do you have there?

A This is the Morrilton contract for elementary.

Q Is this a contract that was offered to you by the de­

fendants in this case?

A Well, I would say - -

Q Did you receive this from the defendants?

A Yes.

Q When did you get this?

A On the 8th o f  September.

Q You received this on the 8th o f  September?

A Yes.

Q Perhaps we better - can you id en t i fy  the  instrument that



Margaret Sanders - D irec t 81

I hand you?

A Yes.

Q What is i t?

A Its  a - t e l l in g  me - -

Q I t  is a le t te r  that you received?

A Yes.

Q Along with this contract?

A Yes.

MR. HOWARD: I f  Your Honor please, we would l ike

to introduce th is.

(Document passed to opposing counsel.)

MR. HOWARD: A le t te r  which accompanied a con­

tract which was o ffered to the witness, and I t hink her 

testimony is to the e f f e c t  that I t  was received on or 

about the 8th o f  September.

THE COURT: What is the date o f  the le tter?

MR. HOWARD: September 3rd.

THE COURT: The le t te r  is one that she says

came with a contract?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: Proposed contract.

MR. HOWARD: This w i l l  be p l a in t i f f s ’ Exhibit

No. 12.

(Thereupon, the document above referred to 
was marked as P la in t i f f s '  Exhibit No. 12, 
for  Id en t i f ic a t ion . )



Margaret Sanders - D irec t QZ

THE COURT: Let i t  be received as P l a in t i f f s ’

Exhibit No. 1Z.

(Thereupon, the document heretofore marked 
as P l a in t i f f s ’ Exhibit No. 12, for iden t i­
f ica t ion ,  was received in ev idence. )

MR. HOmRD: And No. 13, the contract.

(Thereupon, the document above referred to 
was marked as P la in t i f f s '  Exhibit No. 13, 
for id en t i f ica t ion . )

THE COURT: You want to o f fe r  the contract as

No. 13?

MR. HOWARD: That's r ight.

THE COURT: I t  may be received.

(Thereupon, the document heretofore marked 
as P l a in t i f f s ’ Exhibit No. 13, for identi­
f ica t ion ,  was received in evidence.)

Q Now, Miss Sanders, you stated that you were receiving 

four hundred eight dollars per month, that is for the 

1964-65 school term?

A Yes.

Q Will  you advise the Court whether or not you had been ad­

vised that had you continued in the Morrilton School Dis­

t r i c t  you would have been e l i g ib l e  for  a raise?

A Yes, I had. The raise was to - the Superintendent gave us 

a schedule o f  the salary, or salary schedule, and on this 

salary schedule he stated that we would received four 

hundred dollars and for  the d i f fe ren t  clubs that we would 

partic ipate in or carry out in school there would be one



Margaret Sanders - D irec t 83

hundred dollars for ,  say the members o f  the club, not to 

exceed three hundred dollars in some phases; I don’ t re­

member the others.

Q Let me ask you this now, in order to shorten this aspect 

o f  your testimony, do you know what you would have re ­

ceived per month had you been permitted to  continue as a 

teacher in the Morrilton School D istr ic t?

A Well, I'm sure, l e t  me see - -

Q Did the Superintendent advise you what your raise would 

have been?

A Well, he told us on this statement because - -

THE COURT: Mr. Howard, she said awhile ago she

was to get four hundred f i f t y  f iv e  dollars and f i f t y  six 

cents a month?

THE WITNESS: No, I didn’ t mean that.

THE COURT: A l l  r ight.

THE WITNESS: I mean that this was this contract,

but I was supposed to get afour hundred dollar raise over 

what 1 got last year; and t hen I was supposed to receive 

one hundred dollars for a l l  the clubs, and I named the 

clubs. I had a mathematic club; I had the F. T. A . ;  and 

then I had a home room group, we were supposed to get one 

hundred dollars for  a home room group; and le t  me see what 

else —

MR. HOWARD: Well, what I'm driving at, i f



Margaret Sanders - D irec t 84

Your Honor please, and I hope that I can - -

THE COURT: 1 thought 1 understood i t ,  but 1

guess I don't.

Q Now, you were getting four hundred eight dollars - - 

A A month.

Q The 64-65 school term?

A Yes.

Q Now, you had been advised by your Superintendent that you 

were en t it led  to a raise for the 65-66 school term?

A Yes.

Q And without going into the number o f  clubs, etcetera could

you advise the Court what your monthly salary would have 

been i f  you had been permitted to return?

A I can figure i t  out.

Q W e l l , -

THE COURT: Let her f igure i t  out.

THE WITNESS: $4,£70.00.

THE COURT: Per year?

THE WITNESS: Per year.

Q Per year?

A Yes, which would - just a minute - would be $473.33-1/3.

Q Per month?

A Per month.

Q You worked how many months out o f  the year?

A I worked nine months.



Margaret Sanders -  D irec t 85

Q Nine months7

A Yes.

Q Now, awhile ago you t e s t i f i ed  about a f igure o f  $455.56, 

now, what was that?

A That was on the contract that they o f fered  me for e l e ­

mentary.

Q That was the contract that you received on the 8th of 

September 7

A Yes.

Q Nov;, that is a few dollars more per month than you rece iv ­

ed last year , is that correct?

A Yes.

Q Now, coming back to this contract have you accepted this

o f f e r  7

A No.

Q Why haven’ t you accepted the o f fe r?

A Because o f  the fact I f e e l  that the Board didn’ t consider

my quali f icat ions, and in not considering my quali f ications 

I just wouldn’ t want to accept that; i f  they have anything 

else in high school, I know they integrated the high 

school; that means that i f  you integrate my high school 

then you ought to integrate me a long w ith  i t ;  and in the 

event they didn’ t integrate me along with i t ,  well I re­

fused to work in the elementary department, because I

like to teach mathematics.



Margaret Sanders -  D irec t 86

Q And you have been teaching mathematics how long?

A Oh, about twenty f iv e  or th i r ty  years, th i r ty  one years,

I think, something like that.

Q So to go into the elementary department would be v i r tu a l ­

ly  - -

A A demotion.

Q A demotion in asense?

A Yes.

Q Now, you t e s t i f i ed  that the Superintendent stated that 

Negro teachers would no t  be rehired, did he advise you 

why they would not be rehired or integrated into the 

white school?

A No, only thing through his conversation withMrs. King and 

myself that i t  was due to p r inc ipa l ly  to our color when 

he rra de the statement that the pattern, Mrs. King asked 

him was this the pattern that they use and do away with 

the Negro teachers, or had they hired any Negro teachers 

in the south in these white schools, and so he said he 

didn't know anything about whether they did, he said he 

didn't think there was any, but he didn't know what he 

might have to do, because, w e l l ,  i t  seems l ike, he said 

about his, you k now, his employer, and i t  seem l ike  from 

his statement he was saying pressure was brought upon him.

Q Not to rehire you a l l?

A Yes.



Margaret Sanders - D irec t 87

Q Did he indicate the source o f  this pressure?

A Well, he indicated his Board.

Q Miss Sanders, how long have you known one of your asso­

ciates in this case, Mr. Smith?

A Oh, I 'v e  known him ever since - theseven years he has 

been teaching there.

Q Have you been in a position to observe his teaching habits?

A Yes.

Q Have you been in position to observe him in his room as 

he goes about his a ssignments?

A Yes, I have.

Q What is your opinion of his teaching?

A My opinion is that he is wonderful, he is well  quali f ied , 

the students love him and he did a wonderful job in the 

science department, he excelled a l l  other teachers that 

had taught in the science department o f  the L. W, Sullivan 

High School.

Q Do you know o f  any cr i t ic ism  on the part o f  pea rents, 

students or other facualty members?

A No, as far as I know I don't know a thing, because i f  

they had any cr it ic ism  they didn’ t l e t  i t  get to me.

Q You heard nothing around the school about i t?

A No.

Q One f ina l  question, Miss Sanders. Your testimony was that 

you have declined this o fferbecause i t  i s a demotion?



88

A Yes.

Q In your estimation; now, what i f  the Board, instead o f

o f fe r ing  you a position in the elementary school, had o f ­

fered you a position in the white high school would you 

be in a posit ion to accept?

A Yes*

Q You have no agreement with the Menifee School D is tr ic t

or anybody e ls e  that would prevent you at this time from 

accepting employment?

A Certainly not.

MR. HOWARD: That is a l l .

THE COURT: Just a minute, Miss Sanders, there

may be some questions.

CROSS EXAMINATION

Questions by Mr. Light:

Q Miss Sanders, I know you don’ t want to leave a misimpre- 

sion about what Mr. Humble said when he came over and had 

the meeting with you and the other teachers there at 

Sullivan?

A Yes.

Q He did not t e l l  you, did he, that his Board was pressur­

ing him to do anything, that was merely your surmise or 

inference?

A Well, from his statement, he didn’ t just say the Board

Margaret Sanders - D irec t



Margaret Sanders - Cross 89

Q

A

Q

A

Q

A

was pressuring him, but from his statement, he told us 

about his job and he had to, you know, had to look out 

for himself, because he was employed.

Would you just repeat to the best o f  your knowledge ex­

a c t ly  what he said so His Honor w i l l  not be misled as to 

the dist inction between what you surmised and what Mr. 

Humble actua l ly  said?

I ’ m trying now to think o f  his exact words. He said  that 

he was sorry that he had t o do away with us as Negro 

teachers, but i t  was nothing that he could do about i t ,  

as his, you k now, that he was hired, he said you know 

that I'm hired by the Board an d I can only go a certa in  

distance, and that's  as far a s I can get at what he said. 

A l l  r ight, and there was another remark that you made to 

the e f f e c t  that he said i t  was pr inc ipa l ly  due to  your 

color; now, he d idn 't  s sry those words - - 

No.

- that was your inference?

When Miss King asked him, said Mr. Humble, says is this 

the pattern that they use in a l l  the southern states or 

do you know of any school that have employed Negro teach­

ers, so he said he d idn 't  know o f  any, and he was sorry 

that we as Negro teachers had to be dismissed, but i t  was 

nothing that he could do about i t ,  and he went on to say



Margaret Sanders - Cross 90

Q Now, perhaps I can shorten this, Miss Sanders. A l l  I ’ m 

asking is this remark i t  was due to pr inc ipa l ly  to our 

color, is the inference you made based on what you heard 

there, is that correct?

A Yes, w hen he sa id  about the Negroes.

Q Now, without going back to the monthly f igures that we 

had some d i f f i c u l t y  with a moment ago, the monthly rate 

o f  pay that you have now at Menifee is something less than 

the $455*00 o f f e r  that the Morrilton School D is tr ic t  made, 

that is correct,  isn’ t i t?

A Well, you see I haven’ t a ccepted the job at Menifee, 

that ’ s ten ta t iv e ly  un t i1 they can get somebody.

Q Perhaps you misunderstood my question. I asked you

vhether the rate o f  pay at Menifee was less than the job 

of fered you at Morrilton?

A Yes.

Q A l l  r igh t,  why haven’ t you accepted the job yet?

A Because I didn’ t l ike  the salary and I d idn 't  l ik e  the 

posit ion that they o f fered  me at Morriltonjas I said i t  

looked l ike  a demotion and is for me t o  go back in the 

elementary school and teach, and for  the h  st twenty or 

more years I have been teaching mathematics in high school 

and my quali f ications met the approval o f  one teaching in 

high school, why couldn't - and then they state that 

there have been positions by which they could have em­



Margaret Sanders -  Cross 91

ployed me, why didn't they o f f e r  me aposition.

Q Did you understand my question. I asked why didn't you

accept the ;job at Menifee, why you haven't accepted i t  yet?

A The job at Menifee?

Q Yes, Ma'am.

A Is because, see, I'm in Court; and another thing a bout 

i t ,  the salary schedule, I don't want to work for less 

there.

Q To sum i t  up, isn ' t  i t  true you haven't accepted i t  yet 

because you're waiting the outcome o f  this lawsuit?

A Well, not exactly, i t  is  just because I d idn 't  want to 

take a position in the elementary department.

Q No, we're talking about Menifee, and you're in the high 

school down there?

A The high school?

Q Yes.

A I didn't accept i t  because o f  the fact I didn't want to 

work for that sa lary.

Q A l l  r igh t .

A When my c e r t i f i c a t e  says give me more. I could may be run 

around and keep on trying aand eventually get something, I 

don't know, but - -

Q What has your c e r t i f i c a t e  got to do with your salary?

A Yes, I want more salary. Wouldn't you want i t?

Q Did I understand you to say that your c e r t i f i c a t e  said you



Margaret Sanders -  Cross 92

were ent i t led  to a higher salary; I thought that is what 

you s aid?

A No.

Q And you're not going to accept the Menifee employment un­

t i l  this suit is disposed ot?

MR. HOWARD: Your Honor, I object to th is.

THE COURT: On what basis?

MR. HOWARD: I t  is  irre levant.

THE COURT: The Court doesn't think so. I be­

l ieve  she has asked for  damages, hasn't she?

MR. LIGHT: Yes, s i r .  This is  in mitigation,

Your Honor.

MR. HOWA.RD: He asked whether she is going to

accept this job a t  this time. Your Honor, she not only 

asks damages, but to  require these defendants to restore 

her to - -

THE COURT: I think i t  might be re levant on the

issue o f  damages. Of course, i t  nay be that i t  is not 

relevant since i t  might b e - that is she has a duty to 

mitigate. She might have thesame duty without regard to 

whether she in fact did mitigate; so i t  r e a l l y  might not 

make any dif ference whether she does take the job there 

or not. Goahead and a nswer the question. I w i l l  t ry  to 

decide i t  on relevant testimony. Continue, Gentlemen. 

This is not a jury t r i a l .



Margaret Sanders - Cross 93

Q The job has been o ffered to  you at Menifee by that School 

Board, has i t  not?

A Well, they of fered i t ,  but I didn’ t accept i t .

Q Yes, Ma’ am, I understand that; but you have entered upon 

the discharge o f  your dut ies  as a teach down at Menifee 

as o f  right now, have you not?

A Tentatively .

Q Have you been teaching out there la st week?

A Some days and some I d idn 't .

Q You are not teaching fu l l  time?

A I haven't been.

Q What course are you teaching?

A Mathematics.

Q Have you - -

A They’ re just using me until they can find a teacher, and

the only thing I expected o f  them was tentative employment. 

Q Is what they o f fered you fu l l  time employment?

A Sayw hat?

Q They offered you fu l l  time employment, d idn 't  they?

A I don't say they d idn 't ,  but I didn't accept i t .

Q A l l  r ight;  did you work any this summer?

A I was just at home during the summer.

Q Is a 11 o f  the monthly income that you have talked about,

both at Morrilton and a t Menifee, on a nine months basis?

A Yes.



Margaret Sanders -  Cross 94

Q In other words, you're not paid during the summer months 

unless you happen to be teaching summer school and - -

A Tha t ' s r ight.

Q Now, Miss Sanders, you indicated that in February the

Morrilton School Board sent you a le t te r  advising that 

you would be r eemployed commencing in September 1965, i f  

you so desired, and you returned another le t t e r  indicat­

ing that you had accepted the employment; that is correct, 

i s n ' t  i t?

A Yes.

Q Now, that was a conditional o f f e r  from t he Board, in which 

they set out in the le t te r  that in the event the need for  

teachers changed between now and the time we get down to 

o f fe r ing  contracts thatwe reserve the r ight not to o f fe r  

you one; you remember that in the le t te r?

A Well, I remember a«me things.

Q I hand you a le t te r  andask you i f  that appears to be the

printed form le t te r ,  a copy o f  which went to you in Febru­

ary this year?

A Yes.

MR. LIGHT: Your Honor, I o f f e r  that as defend­

ants' Exhibit No. 1.

(Thereupon, the document above referred to 
was marked as Defendants' Exhibit No. 1, 
for id en t i f i c a t ion . )

THE COURT: Don't we already have one copy o f



IVIargaret Sanders -  Cross 95

that le t t e r  in?

MR. LIGHT: I believe not the February le t te r ,

Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well .  Let i t  be received.

(Thereupon, the document heretofore marked 
as Defendants’ Exhibit No. 1, for identi­
f ica t ion ,  was received in evidence.)

Q You t e s t i f i e d  to some extent about your observation o f  

Clement Smith?

A Yes.

Q Have you ever been with Clement Smith in a social situa­

tion outside o f  school hours and o f f  o f  the campus?

A Yes, I ’ ve been in several social a c t i v i t i e s  w ith  him.

Q Have you been at social a c t i v i t i e s  with him where alcohol­

ic beverages were consumed?

A Well, I didn’ t - i f  t hey consumed them there I didn't see 

them.

Q I see; do you happen to be fam il ia rw1th  his reputation, 

i f  he had such a reputation, o f  being intemperate on oc­

casion in connection with his consumption o f  a lcoholic  

beverages?

A No, I have no record, he hasn't been when I have been at 

entertainment, what ever you may ca l l  i t ,  he has always 

been sober at the time that he was around me, and at the 

socials he has been temperate at al 1 times. I don't know 

anything e lse,  that is a l l  I can s ay.



Margaret Sanders -  Cross 96

Q Did you happen to know about his being arrested for driv­

ing while intoxicated up in Morrilton?

A Well, I didn’ t know that.

Q Is this the f i r s t  you’ ve heard about that?

A This is the f i r s t  I ’ ve heard. I know i t  wasn’ t in school

or in any soc ia l ;  i t  must have been afterwards.

MR. LIGHT: That is a l l .

MR. HOWARD: No further questions.

THE COURT: You may stand a side, Miss Anderson:

(Above witness temporarily excused.)

THE COURT: Who w i l l  be next?

MR. ANDERSON: Mr. Smith.

CLEMENT S. SMITH

called as a witness by and on behalf o f  P la in t i f f s ,  being 

duly sworn, was examined and t e s t i f i e d  as fo l lows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

Questions byMr . Anderson:

Q W il l  you state your name?

A Clement S. Smith.

Q Where do you l i v e ,  Mr. Smith?

A 1013 South 11th Street, Maywood, I l l i n o i s .

Q Where did you live prior to that?

A 511 West Elm Street, Morrilton, Arkansas.

Q What was your occupation?



Clement S. Smith - D irec t 97

A You mean when I was in Morrilton?

Q When you were in Morrilton?

A School teacher.

Q Where did you teach?

A Sullivan High School.

Q How many years experience have you had teaching?

A Seven.

Q A l l  o f  that in Sullivan High School?

A Yes.

Q How much academic preparation haveyou had?

A I have B S degree - -

THE COURT: Mr* Smith, try  to keep your voice

pitched a l i t t l e  higher, please, s i r ,  and enunciate just 

a l i t t l e  more c le a r ly  so the Court andthe Reporter can 

hear you. Go ahead.

Q How much academic preparation have you had?

A 1 have a B. S. degree ins cience, and I have twenty f i v e  

graduate hours in science and biology, chemistry.

Q When did you acquire these twnety f iv e  hours graduate 

study?

A I acquired twelve a t  Texas Southern, two summers on science 

grant, and I acquired the o ther, well ,  I acquired fourteen 

at Texas Southern, and I acquired eleven, I believe i t  

was, at Howard University.

Q Were a l l  these by science grant?

A Yes.



Clement S. Smith -  D irec t 98

Q You were able to obtain a grant?

A Yes.

Q How much was a grant?

A The grants are usually, they were seventy f iv e  dollars a 

week, plus f i f t e e n  dollars per dependent up to a to ta l  o f  

four dependents, and usually I ran about $135.00 a week.

Q How many dependents did you have?

A Four.

Q How did you acquire these grants, t e l l  the Court how these 

grants are made to you? Do you have to be a teacher?

A First o f  a l l  you have to be teaching in a certa in  area.

" I t  is for science primarily, and i t  was a grant made 

available by the National Science Foundation under Act 52. 

some years ago, and i t  is designed primarily to assist 

teachers to continue to teach school, continue to attend 

school and try  to keep abreast in what ever area you are 

working in.

Q Do you have to have a contract currently to receive this 

grant ?

A Oh, yes, you have to be teaching.

Q In other words, i f  you don't have a teaching contract you

cannot get this grant?

A That's r ight.

Q State whether or not you have been o f fered  contracts re­

peatedly since you f i r s t  started teaching at the L. W.



Clement S. Smith -  D irec t 99

Sullivan High School?

A Every year except this year.

Q What year, 65-66.

A 65-66 school year .

Q Do you know why you were not o f fered  a contract for the 

year 1965-66?

A They closed the L. W* Sullivan High School and no Negro 

teachers were retained.

Q Were you at a meeting that Superintendent Terry Humble 

attended on May 28, 1965?

A Yes.

Q What did he s ta te  to you with reference to closing the 

L. W, Sullivan High School?

A He sa id  the school would be closed and that our contracts 

wouldn't be issued fortheooming year, 65-66; and he made 

several statements, he pointed out about how sorry he was 

to have to bring us this sad news; and he sa id  that i t  

was his opinion that a t  this particular time Negro teach­

ers just c ou ld ^ t  f i t  into the trend o f  things because the 

white students couldn*ta djust to i t  in the classroom.

Q That was his statement to a l l  o f  you?

A Yes.

Q By the termination o f  this contract state whether or not 

you lost a scholarship from National Science Foundation?

A Yes, I had three scholarships, I lost a l l  o f  them.



Clement S. Smith - D irec t 100

Q You lost three scholarships?

A Yes.

Q What was the to ta l  amount o f  those?

A Well, I could have only accepted one; each one would 

have been roughly about eleven hundred dollars.

Q During the t ime that you taught at the L. W. Sullivan High 

School did you have any complaints made against?

A No, I didn’ t .

Q By the principal?

A None that I know of«

Q By the parfcnts?

A None that I know o f .

Q By the Superintendent?

A None that I knowof. The Superintendent cal led ms in once 

and talked to me, but he d idn ’ t t e l l  me what he was ta lk­

ing to me a bout.

Q He nude no statement asto what he was talking about; was 

this during the time that places in Mor r i l t o n  were being 

integrated ?

A Yes.

Q Was i t  thought at that time that you were the leader o f  

this movement?

A Yes.

Q Now, since school has closed have you obtained any work?

A Yes.



Clement S. Smith - D irec t 101

Q Where isthis work?

A I'm working as a chemist for General Food Corporation, 

Chicago, I l l i n o i s .

Q Prior to your obtaining employment to what expense were 

you put seeking this employment?

A Well, f i r s t  o f  a l l ,  when I tr ied to get my teacher's re ­

tirement out I couldn’ t get i t ;  the suit I had in against 

the school inhibited me getting my teacher’ s retirement, 

so I had to borrow roughly $1289.00, I believe is the 

f igure I had, either twelve hundred or eleven, I ’ m not 

sure - i t  was $1189.00, is what i t  was, so I had to borrow 

that from the A. T A .

Q What is the A. T. A.?

A That’ s the Arkansas Teachers Association.

Q You mean their  cred it  union?

A Yes, that 's  r ight.

Q And what were your expenses o f  moving t o  Chisago?

A Oh, i t  cost me about s ix  or seven hundred dollars^ I didn&t

keep a record, I w i l l  say o f f  hand i t  cost me about seven 

hundred dollars to move my family.

Q Did you have any other expense?

A Well, I had some nominal expenses o f  sett ing up housekeep­

ing a f te r  I got there, oh, I guess may be another two or 

three hundred dollars, something like that.

Q Lets go back to the Superintendent o f  theMbrrilton School
9



Clement S. Smith - D irec t 102

Mr. Terry Humble, did he inform you i f  any openings de­

veloped that you would be hired or considered for such 

opening?

A No, he told us e a r l i e r  that at the present time that they 

would not consider hiring Negro teachers, because the 

white kids couldn’ t adjust in the classroom.

Q Was any question ever raised with reference to your re­

cord?

A What kind of record?

Q At the school, teaching record?

A No.

Q Now, did you also seek employment in the Chicago School 

system?

A Oh, yes .

Q What occurred?

A I received a teacher’ s c e r t i f i c a t e  to teach chemistry, 

physics and general science.

Q You were c e r t i f i e d  by the State Board o f  Education?

A 1 was c e r t i f i e d  by the Board and o f fered  a job.

Q Do you have that c e r t i f i c a te ?

A Mr. Walker has i t .

Q When you sought employment at this school board did they 

ask you why you l e f t  your las t  pfe.ce o f  employment?

A No.

Q What did they ask?



Clement S. Smith -  D irec t 103

A A l l  the jobs I was interviewed for theyasked about, you 

know, when you f i l l  out the form they have a question­

naire and you have to point out why you l e f t  your la st 

job.

Q What information did you give?

A I told them that the schools were being c losed a l l  over 

the South and Negro teachers were being f i r ed  and that 

was my reason for leaving.

Q Has the Superintendent ever v is i ted  your school while 

you were in Morrilton?

A Yes.

Q What did he say?

A Nothing; he came in the classroom and set up and I started 

back to talk to him and he d id n 't  say anything, he went 

on back out the door.

Q To the best o f  your knowledge and reco l lec t ion  that is 

the only time that he v is i t ed  your room?

A Yes.

Q Did he ever c a l l  you to his o f f i c e ?

A No.

Q Did he ever confer with you at any time with reference to

your actions?

A Oh, yes, he ca l led  me in last summer, he sent for my wife 

and 1, and he told me the Board was displeased with my 

actions; and I asked him what were my actions and he told



Clement S. Smith - D irec t 104

me at this time we don't care to spel l  them out, but i f  1 

have to say anything else to you we w i l l  spel l  them out.

Q I hand you - -

THE COURT: Just a minute. When was this, what

summer, 1965?

THE WITNESS: This was last Summer, yes.

Q *64?

A '64, Summer of '64, Your Honor.

Q Is this your teachers c e r t i f i c a te ?

A Yes.

(Document passed to opposing counsel.)

(The document above referred to was marked 
as P l a in t i f f ' s  Exhibit No. 14, for id en t i ­
f ica t ion .  )

THE COURT: What is th is ,  teacher's c e r t i f ic a te?

MR. ANDERSON: Yes, s i r ,  we would like to o f f e r

this inevidence.

THE COURT: That w i l l  be P la in t i f f s '  Exhibit

what, fourteen, the w itness 's  I l l in o i s  teachers c e r t i f i ­

cate or authority identify ing him as a teacher, I suppose.

(Thereupon, the document heretofore marked 
as P la in t i f f s '  Exhibit No. 14, for id en t i ­
f ica t ion ,  was received in evidence.)

Q Now, some question has been raised with reference to your 

having been arrested; have you ever been arrested?

A In fact, every time I come home they stopped me; every 

time I come home they stopped me.



Clement S. Smith - D irec t 105

Q Who is they?

A The po l ice .

Q Have you ever been arrested?

A Oh, yes.

Q How many times?

A Twice.

Q Twice; what was the outcome o f  e ither  arrest?

A I posted the bond and I d idn 't  pursue i t  any further.

Q Now, a great deal and much has,been made o f  the fact o f

your drinking habits, have you ever been arrested for 

being drunk?

A No. I hsrve been arrested for D. W. I . ,  that 's  what they 

called i t ,  drinking while under the influence o f  alcohol. 

Q At least you were charged with it?

A Yes.

Q Were you drunk?

A No.

THE COURT: You posted bond on a D. W. I .

charge once or twice?

THE WITNESS: Twice.

THE COURT: When was this?

THE WITNESS: Once about a year ago and once

about two years ago.

THE COURT: Both times in Morrilton?

THE WITNESS: Yes.



Clement S. Smith -  D irec t 106

Q Mr. Smith, le ts  go back to your academic days, were you 

ever involved in any trouble?

A In Morrilton?

Q No; I believe you went to Pine B lu ff  A. M. & N?

A A. M. & N. College, yes.

Q You ever in any trouble there?

A No major problems, no.

Q Only a minor nature?

A Oh, yes, we got caught once for getting some cokes, about 

f i f t e e n  or twenty o f  us, they called us in and talked to 

us about i t ,  other than that that is the on ly  thing.

Q This is the only trouble you had?

A Yes.

MR. ANDERSON: That is a l l .

CROSS EXAMINATION

Questions by Mr . Light:

Q Since your counsel condluded talking a bout your troubles, 

we w i l l  start with that. You have been arrested for 

driv ing while intoxicated twice in Morrilton while you 

were a teacher in the Morrilton Public School system?

A That’ s right.

Q Your employment through that time you were involved in 

teaching students o f  high school age, that is fourteen 

to seventeen to eighteen years o f  age; is that correct?



Clement S. Smith -  Cross 107

A That’ s correct,  yes .

Q Do you happen to know whether your dr iv ing  while in tox i ­

cated incident was brought to the attention o f  the Board?

A I know one instance was brought to the Board; I told them 

about i t .

Q The one that came down to get you out o f  j a i l ?

A No, I went to his house, Mr. Rowell.

Q In fact,  you had a couple other arrested upthere at 

Morrilton for other type offenses, did you not?

A Yes.

Q In fact you had some di^seiplinary problems when you were 

caught stealing Coca Colas down there at A. M. & N.?

A N o, I didn't have a problem there.

Q Well, the incident occurred, d idn 't  i t ,  you did get caught?

A Yes.

Q In fact,  down in Ashley County you were arrested and taken 

to Court some time before that for, in a situation where 

you had a gun?

A Oh, no.

Q And pointed i t  at - -

A That's not so, no.

Q A l l  r ight,  t e l l  me what happened?

A As I pointed out in the hearing, i t  was an incident where 

a fe l low  reported a group o f  us, that was about seventeen 

or eighteen years ago, as having a gun, and when the



Clement S. Smith - Cross 108

authorities came to investigate they found out that a l l  v/e 

had we had some toy p is to ls .

How old are you, Mr. Smith7 

I am th ir ty .

Thirty; eighteen years ago you would have been twenty 

years old?

That’ s about r igh t.

So youw ere twelve years old then?

Roughly; I was s t i l l ,  I was just getting into junior high 

school.

In junior high school?

Yes.

And i t  turned out that you had toy guns?

That’ s correct.

Looked l ike  real guns?

Yes. Checkt he records and they w i l l  show that.

A l l  r ight, what sort o f  academic record did you make down 

at A. M. & N. College?

I had an average record.

C student?

Yes.

You have some Ds?

Yes, and some Bs and As.

And some Es?

Y es .



Clement S. Smith -  Cross 109

Q E is a conditional grade, th ey  w i l l  substitute an F or 

raise i t  to a D?

A Or remove i t .

Q You weren’ t any scholar down there, were you?

A No.

Q Did you have any d i f f i c u l t y ,  Mr. Smith, maintaining d is­

c ip l ine in your class at Sullivan High School?

A Never had a b i t .

Q None whatever?

A None whatsoever.

Q Do you reca l l  t e l l in g  me on your deposition that you had­

n’ t had much d i f f i c u l ty ?

A No, I don’ t r e ca l l  t e l l in g  you that.

Q May be 1 can refresh your reco l lec t ion .  Do you reca l l  me

asking you: "Have you had d i f f i c u l t y  maintaining d iscip l ine 

in your classes, Clement?" And your answer: "Not much/, 

no, s i r . "  That sounds about right?

A That sounds about right.

Q Did Mr. King, your Principal,  ever discuss with you the

manner o f  your conduct o f  your class?

A Not about my classes, no.

Q Did he ever have occasion to discuss your deportment in

anyway that bears on your f itness to be a school teacher?

A Well, Mr. King and I talked so much about so many d i f fe ren t



Clement S* Smith - Cross 110

things, I don’ t reca l l ,  may be once or twice he may have , 

may we have talked once or may be twice about i t .

Q Do you think i t  was once or do you think i t  was twice?

A May be once, w e ' l l  say once.

Q You are sure you had a t least one discussion with him?

A Oh, ye s .

Q What was the nature o f  the discussion?

A I t  was just - ask that question again.

Q What was the nature o f  the discussion you had with Mr.

King where the subject was your fitness as a school teacher?

A Oh, well ,  he told me some o f  the things that 1 was doing

that he d idn 't  quite approve o f ,  and that may be I should 

do some things a l i t t l e  b i t  d i f fe ren t .

Q That is where he was talkingabout theway you maintained 

d iscip l ine and - -

A Oh, no, I never had any trouble with students in the c lass­

room, I never had any trouble maintaining d isc ip l ine.

Q Hewas ta lk ing to you about the manner o f  conducting your 

class in general?

A No, he was talking to me about the manner o f  conducting 

myself.

Q Hewas talking about your whiskey drinking, wasn ' t  he?

A Well, 1 wouldn't e xac t ly  say that.

Q In fact,  Clement, 1 t me ask you this, did you not know 

long before the question o f  closing the Sullivan High



Clement S, Smith - Cross 111

School came up that the patrons o f  the d is t r i c t  were com­

plaining to the o f f i c i a l s  o f  the d is t r i c t  about your 

drinking situation?

A I wasn’ t a ware o f  i t .

Q A l l  r ight, I ' l l  ask you i f  you remember me asking you 

at the time your deposit ionwas taken on July 15, 1965, 

you reca l l that,  upat Morrilton?

A Yes.

Q Taking your deposition; at page 13, whether I asked you 

this question, you fol low thiswith me, "Are you aware 

that there have been complaints from the patrons o f  that 

school about your drinking habits?" And your answer was, 

"They have not made any to me.” And my question: "Well,

my question was are you aware that those complaints had 

been made?" And your answer : "Yes."?

A I f  you say I said i t  I guess I did.

Q You knewcompla ints had been made; that was brought to

your attent ion wle n Mr* King discussed i t  w ith  you, was­

n ' t  i t?

A  When you say patrons and when I answered yes, that yes

means that may be probably one or two, but I wasn 't aware 

that i t  was a general thing like you're making i t  sound.

Q You knewthat that was in the mill  and that that hgd come 

to the attention o f  the administration people there in 

the school, and Mr. King had had you in to talk to you



Clement S. Smith - Cross 112

about i t?

THE COURT: Just a minute. When you nod your

head i t  doesn’ t get in the record, Mr. Smith. Answer 

the question yes or no.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

C T f it n  THE COURT: He nods, which the Court takes i t

to mean a ff irmative  answers to the last two questions.

THE WITNESS: I was just nodding my head l is ten ­

ing to him; I wasn’ t saying yes or no.

Q My question is whether Mr. King ca lled you in to t e l l  

you there hadb een such complaints a bout your drinking 

and t o  discuss that subject with you?

A Well, the answer to that would be no.

Q A l l  r ight,  I ’ l l  ask you to follow me again on page 13 o f

your deposition and see i f  I asked you these questions:

"Did Mr. King discuss that with you?” Answer: "Yes, s i r . "  

Question: "And Mr* King was principal o f  your school unti l  

he re t im ed  a month or so ago, is that correct?" Answer: 

"That’ s r i g h t . "  Question: "Did he have frequent occasions 

to discuss that with you?" Answer: "He discussed i t

with me on two occasions." Have I correc t ly  read that?

A This Is correct with one exception.

Q Te l l  me the exception.

A When Mr . King discussed this with me I wasn’ t aware that 

he was discussing i t  w ith  me because patrons had said



Clement S. Smith - Cross 113

anything to him; and that was the question that you asked 

me o r ig in a l ly .

Q A l l r ig h t .

A I thought he was just talking to me as Principal.

Q I thinkwe’ re in agreement now that you did know, although 

you say - -

A Yes, the Principal had ta lked to me, but I didn't know 

hew as talking to me because patrons had been to him.

Q And he talked to you about drinking alcoholic  beverages, 

is that i 1 7

A Not about - yes, that 's  what we talked about.

Q And the tenor o f  his conversation was that your conduct

in that regard needed to be improved?

A N o; i f  Iwas going to drink 1 should s l ip  and drink i t .

That’ s what he t al ke d about. He told me i f  I was going

to drink i t  that I shouldn’ t le t  anybody see me drinking.

Q Is that what you told me on your deposition?

A No, but I ’ m explaining, I ’ m t e l l in g  you what i t  is ,  I'm

te l l in g  you just exactly, I mean the essence o f  his con­

versation was - -

Q Do you remember me taking your deposition and asking you 

what the conversationwas about, do you remember that?

A Yes.

Q And is this what you told me then?

A I was just simply expla ining t o y>u a l i t t l e  more about



Clement S. Smith -  Cross 114

the conveirsation;v/hat ever I said there I s t i l l  hold to 

the same thing I said.

Q Lets see what you to ld  me i t  was in July. I asked you:

"A l l  r ight,  did he te l l  you that complaints had come to 

him with respect to people a l leg ing you had uneven temper­

ate habits, and that is what he was talking about?”

Answer: "Yes, s i r . " ?

A That’ s r ight.

Q Question: ^And that he wanted you to get your house in

order?" Answer: "That’ s r ig h t . "  "And were both o f  those 

occasions in this last school year, 1964-65 school year?" 

Answer: "No, they were about three years ago and about a 

year before tha t . "  ?

A That’ s correct.

Q Is that r igh t;  pages 13 and 14; and you didn’ t t e l l  me 

anything there about him suggesting you s l ip  around and 

have a drink?

A No, but that is what the conversation, I mean that is 

what he meant.

Q As a matter o f  fac t ,  when I took your deposition back in 

July when you were talking about this conversation you 

had with Mr. Humble at the May 28th meeting - str ike that - 

tha t ’ s not what I have reference to. When you were t e l l ­

ing me about the conversationsyou hadwith Mr . Humble 

about your conduct you did not t e l l  me that you were in­



Clement S* Smith -  Cross 115

ferr ing that had something to do w ith  some integration 

a c t i v i t y  you had outside o f  school, did you?

A You didn’ t ask me.

Q And that is simply a conclusion on your part, isn ’ t7

A That’ s correct;  he didn’ t say oneway or the other what

the problem was; he just to ld  me that the Board was dis­

pleased with your conduct and I wouldn’ t care to define 

i t  at this time, that i f  I have t o say anything else to 

you we w i l l  define i t .

Q And, o f  course, a t that time you knewthat the Board knew 

that this drinking s ituation had presented i t s e l f  from 

time to time, did you?

A Oh, ye s .

Q To your knowledge haveyou had any problems with debts that 

have caused embarrassment to the Administration of the 

Morrilton Public Schools?

A I don’ t know whether they ca l l  i t  embarrassment to them,

I has/e had some trouble with my debts, soma o f  them.

Q Do you happen to know that at least one o f  your creditors 

contacted the Superintendent in an e f f o r t  to co l lec t  

that money?

A No, I d i dn ’ t .

Q A l l  r i g h t ,  but you have had cred i to rs  in the past who have 

contacted you in seeking to - -

A Just a few.



Clement S. Smith -  Cross 116

Q 1 believe that you discussed subsequent to May 28th, 1965 

the prospect o f  f i l i n g  this lawsuit with the o therteach-  

ers that had been teaching there in Sullivan High School?

A When?

Q Subsequent to May 28th, since then?

A Oh, ye s .

Q And invited them to jo in  you as a p l a in t i f f  in this law- 

sui t ?

A That's correct.

Q And a l l  except Mixs Sanders declined, is that correct?

A A l l  except Miss Sanders, yes.

Q Clement - Kir. Smith, I'm sorry, in paragraph seven o f  your 

complaint you a l lege  that the defendants have hired white 

teachers to teach in the Morrilton High School whose 

quali f icat ions and experience are in fe r io r  to those possess­

ed by you. Now, would you t e l l  me what teachers the de­

fendants have employed in the Morrilton High School whose 

quali f icat ions to teach are in fer ios  to yours?

A 1 don't remember their names; he read them o f f  this morn­

ing.

MR. ANDERSON: Your Honor, he a l leges  on informa­

tion and b e l i e f .

THE COURT: Well, he c an t e s t i f y  i f  he knows.

He has already said i t  were those whose nameswere read 

o f f  this morning.



Clement S. Smith - Cross 117

Q You in fect don’ t know any of those folks who were employ­

ed over there, do you, Mr. Smith?

A You mean personally?

Q Yes.

A Oh, no.

Q You are not acquainted with them?

A No.

Q You are not acquainted with their  quali f icat ions to teach 

except what you’ ve heard here in the Courtroom?

A That is what members o f  - what the lawyers mentioned 

ea r l ie r  to me.

Q You further a l lege  in paragraph 7tthat the defendants in 

antic ipation o f  pupil desegregation hired white teachers 

beyond their usual requirements in 1964; I take that also 

to apply to Morrilton High School; what do you know upon 

which you base that idea?

A We had a meeting about Apr i l  before school closed, I think 

i t  was Ap r i l ,  and this was a jo in t f a c u l t y  meeting, and 

the Superintendent said inasmuch as a l l  o f  our students 

had indicated a preference for the white school that they 

wanted to begin getting in touch with other colleges 

around the state vho hire persons so they could have a 

s t a f f  f a c u l t y  for the next year.

Q When was that meeting?

A I think i t  was about A p r i l ,  we had a jo in t  meeting at the



Clement S. Smith -  Cross 118

white high school.

Q And at that time they already knewthat one hundred and 

s ix ty  some odd students from Sullivan had requested to 

be admitted - -

A Yes.

Q - to the white school?

A Yes.

Q With respect to the quali f icat ions o f  these people in the

Morrilton High School do you knowany persons in the Morri l-  

ton High School teaching there that are not quali f ied to 

teach?

A No, I don’ t .

Q Of your personal knowledge?

A No.

Q Do any o f  them over there - do you know o f  any over thece 

who’ ve been convicted while driving while intoxicated?

A None that I know of, I wouldn’ t have any way o f  knowing.

Q Do you know any o f  them over there with a police record?

A None that I know o f .

Q What is yours a lary in your current employment?

A Eighty two hundred.

Q Eighty two hundred dollars a year?

A Yes.

Q And what was your sa la ry  w ith  the Morrilton School Dis­

t r ic t?



Clement S* Smith -  Cross 119

A T h ir ty e ig h t  hundred, about.

Q Per year?

A Yes.

Q In fact,  i t  was per nine months, wasn 't  i t ?

A That is correct.

Q Now, when you mention this occasion when Mr. Humble c a l l ­

ed you and your w i f e  in - I understand your wife was a 

school teacher there to?

A Yes.

Q Did both ofvyou go into his o f f i c e ?

A Shew ent f i r s t  and I went la ter .

Q You didn't even go to the building together?

A No, we didn't go to the building together.

Q Mr. Smith, what were your habits with respect to handling 

intoxicating beverages?

A Exactly what do you mean by that?

Q I mean whatwas your practice with regard to how much 

you would consume a day or a week o f  Intoxicating bever­

ages?

A Well, I would may be drink a beer or so a day.

Q Every day?

A Not e very day.

Q Beer the only thing you drank?

A No.

Q What else along that line did you drink?

A What do you mean?



120

Q I mean did you drink scotch?

A I wasn't able; I drank a l i t t l e  bourbon.

Q You didn't drink any Scotch while ^you were employed by 

Morrilton School D istr ic t?

MR. ANDERSON: I object to that, Your Honor.

THE WITNESS: I have drank some while employed

by the Morrilton School D is t r ic t ,  yes.

Q Scotch and bourbon both, i s n ' t  that r igh t?

A I don't remember.

MR. ANDERSON: Your Honor, we object to this

line o f  questioning.

MR. LIGHT: He t e s t i f i e d  on his deposition - -

THE COURT: Just a moment, Gentlemen. Lets go

along, Gentlemen. Mr. Light, you may inquire into his 

habits o f  drinking to the extent i t  might be expected to 

have some bearing on his quali f icat ions to teach in the 

Morrilton School; I don't know that i t  makes much d i f f e r ­

ence whether he drinks Scotch or Bourbon or martinies or 

some other form; but le ts  not make l ight o f  this matter. 

You may inquire about the extent o f  his drinking, but the 

Court doesn't care about any details o f  the brands he 

prefers, anything o f  that kind; completely ir re levant.

Go ahead. He says he drank some every day or so.

Q About whatwould be the average expenditure you would make 

per week on alcoholic  beverages for  your consumption?

Clement S. Smith - Cross



Clement S* Smith - ReDirect 121

A May be two or three dollars .

Q A week?

A May be, some times, that wasn’ t every week.

MR. LIGHT: That is a l l .

REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

Questions by Mr . Anderson:

Q Mr. Smith, did you drink while on the job?

A Never did.

Q Were you ever questioned aboutd rinking while you were 

on the job?

A No.

Q Were there ever any complaints about you drinking while 

on the job?

A No.

Q I f  - did a l l  complaints, i f  there were any, a f te r?

A Yes.

Q You were away from your job?

A Yes.

Q Something has been made o f  your academic record here.

This grant is furnished by the Federal Government, is i t  

A Yes.

Q They approved it?

A Yes.

Q You have revealed your record, your past history, is



Clement S* Smith - ReDirect 1ZZ

that correct?

A That is correct, yes.

Q Now, you were twelve years 6Id when this cap p is to l  in­

cident arose?

A Twelve or thirteen, I don’ t r emember, i ts  been so long.

Q And the incident about the Coca-Colas happened more than 

ten years ago?

A About ’ 54, I be l ieve ,  ’ 54 or '55, some where along there.

MR. ANDERSON: That w i l l  be a l l .

THE COURT: Who w i l l  be next?

MR. WALKER: At this po in t ,  Your Honor, we

would l ik e  to renew our motion to inspect the records o f  

a l l  the teachers in the system as i t  relates to those 

teachers’ drinking habits, anything that was brought out 

on cross-examination by Mr. Light, so that we might have 

some basis for making a comparison between those teach­

ers ' personal habits and the Negro teachers' personal 

habits.

THE COURT: I don't believe that I w i11 permit

you to go into that at this time on the showing up to 

this point. I don't be l ieve  that on balance the need 

for  i t  is shown to be so great as to counterbalance the 

interest o f  the persons involved and of the public in 

having the personnel records not read into the record.



123

This is not to suggest that there is anything in any of 

these records that would r e f l e c t  on anybody, but i f ,  Mr. 

Walker, your c l ients  are residents o f  the Morrilton area, 

they've been in the school system, Morrilton is not a large 

town, and i f  there is any considerable amount or was con­

siderable problem with respect to any teacher up there, 

that is i f  he had been arrested, been drunk on the street ,  

complaint made about him, I'm sure the whole community 

would know i t ,  there is nothing secret in Morrilton.

Now, i f  you can point to some spec i f ic  incident, 

ca l l  the Court's attention to some f i l e  that you think 

needs going into, the Court perhaps w i l l  entertain your 

request, but I don't believe I ' l l  go over a l l  those f i l e s .

MR. WALKER: Well, Your Honor, I might point

out that the community of Morrilton, like so many com­

munities in this state and the south, is a d ist inct  and 

separate community, i ts  not one community, i t  is r ea l ly  

two communities, there is a Negro community and there is 

a white community, and, Your Honor, I'm sure, is well 

advised that the Negro community is not fu l l y  advised 

o f  what goes on in the white school system nor the white 

community; that they do not know who those persons are 

in the white school system that would be drunk; they 

would not know who those persons are in the white school 

system who have business debts or business problems or



124

credit problems, anything l ike that, and accordingly we 

have no way o f  knowing, no way o f  ascertaining from the 

persons who are teaching in the school system just what 

the personal bad habits are o f  some o f  the white teachers 

who teach in that system.

THE COURTS I don’ t believe I ' l l  explore those 

personnel records, unless you can ca l l  my attention to 

some spec i f ic  problem connected to some spec i f ic  in­

dividual. Now, i f  y ou ' l l  check the police b lotters  and 

the record o f  criminal convictions, bonds posted, some­

thing o f  that kind, gotten some information that leads 

you to suspect some given individual as having a criminal 

problem, then I ' l l  go into i t .  Otherwise, I don't be­

l ieve i ' l l  go into the personnel f i l e s .

MR. WALKER: I f  I may make this additional

statement, Your Honor: That in order for p la in t i f f s  to 

obtain the information that Your Honor requests us to 

provide in order to inspect the records in question i t  

would put p la in t i f f s  to great expense, and p la in t i f f s  

are not pecunious enough to bear the cost o f  such. I t  

would also take quite a b i t  o f  time, and I think, Your 

Honor, this is an impossible test that you are putting 

p la in t i f f s  to. Now, I think that in view o f  the fact 

that the defendants do have access to a l l  o f  the records 

they know what’ s in those records and they could c lea r ly



1£7

to save or pfcotect some other teacher.

Bear in mind, Mr. Walker, that this r e a l l y  is 

pretty  much co l la te ra l  anyway. This doesn't go to the 

heart o f  any issue r e a l l y .  These folks were f i red ,  i f  

that is the word you want to use, were not permitted to 

teach further, bas ica l ly  because the Sullivan School 

was closed. Now you contend and they contend, as I under­

stand i t ,  that they had some rights in that s ituat ion to 

be considered on some kind o f  an equitable basis for re­

employment or absopption into the system along w ith  a l l  

the other teachers.

Let us assume that sixteen other teachers o f  - 

what did Mr. Smith teach, science - sixteen other science 

teachers in the system a l l  had in their personnel f i l e  

some indication o f  d idd i fu lt ies  o f  one kind or another 

which indicated some degree o f  moral turpitude, I'm not 

so sure the fact that they were kept on would rea l ly  prowe 

anything in this lawsuit; i t  would be at least some eviden 

and would provide the basis for an argument that Mr. Smith 

might not have been retained because hevas a Negro; and, 

o f  course, that 's  what you want to show. To that extent, 

and to that extent only, the Court thinks i t  is relevant.

I don't see what else i t  would show.

Since the request does involve going into the 

personnel f i l e s  a f fec t ing  a good many other people who

ce



128

arc not d i re c t ly  concerned with the lawsuit I don’ t be­

l ieve I ’ l l  l e t  you do i t ,  unless you can point to some 

spec i f ic  f i l e  or individual as requiring some further 

invextigat ion.

Your exceptions are saved. Not necessary that 

that be done, but they are saved and the record is made.

MR. WALKER: A l l  right, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Now, in the course of the lawsuit

i f  you want to pursue this matter any further, i f  you 

can id en t i fy  any spec i f ic  f i l e  you want to request, and 

make some showing why you request i t ,  the Court w i l l  re­

consider i ts  action.

MR. WALKER: At this time, Your Honor, we would

like to ca l l  Mr. Patterson, the A. T. A. President.

T. E. PATTERSON,

calleda s a witness by and on behalf o f  P la in t i f f s ,  being 

duly sworn, was examined and t e s t i f i e d  as fo l lows:

THE COURT: I believe we w i l l  take a few minutes

recess before we begin with Mr. Patterson.

(Short recess. )

THE COURT: You may proceed.

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

Questions by Mr* Walker:

Q State your name for the record, please?



T. E. Patterson - D irec t 129

A T. E. Patterson.

Q And where do you l iv e ,  Mr . Patterson?

A I l ive  at 1524 West 21st Street.

Q And what isyour occupation?

A I am Executive Secretary o f  the Arkansas Teachers Asso­

c iat ion.

Q And does that Arkansas Teachers Association thesame one 

that is a p l a in t i f f  in this action?

A That’ s r ight.

Q As Executive Secretary o f  the Arkansas Teachers Associa­

tion what are your responsibil ity?

A Welfare o f  the teachers.

Q Now, s p e c i f i c a l ly  what do you do to protect the welfare 

o f  the teachers?

A Well, I t ry  to take greivances and work out the best 

solution. In this particular case we did not have a 

lawsuit that indicated that the teachers were dismissed, 

but we tr ied  at Morrilton on behalf o f  p la in t i f f s  to get 

r e l i e f  for them.

Q Am I correct that the Arkansas Teachers Association is

an organization, which is ihcorporated, which represents 

most, i f  not a l l ,  the Negro teachers vho teach in the 

State o f  Arkansas?

A That's r igh t .  Primarily to the members who pay, but

a l l  teachers that work in the State o f  Arkansas, Negro



T. E. Patterson - D irec t 130

teachers.

Q Now, le t  me ask you something about your educational

background; Mr. Patterson, where did you go to college?

A I went to Wylie College in North Texas.

Q Did you get a degree?

A Bachelor o f  science.

Q Did you have any graduate training?

A Yes, I had post graduate work at the University  of South­

ern Cali fornia, where I quali f ied to be an accountant; 

and I went to the University  o f  Indiana and obtained my 

master’ s degree in public school administration.

Q Have you any further training beyond the master's degree 

in public school administration?

A I accepted a scholarship to the Univers ity  o f  Texas, I 

think, in 1958, and I worked on a doctoral program.

Q How many credits did you gain at the University o f  Texas 

on the doctoral program?

A Nine.

Q Was that in e ducationa 1 administration?

A That's r ight.

Q Now, have you had any prior experience as a school ad- 

mi nistra tor?

A Yes, prior to coming to the association I was Superintend 

ent o f  the Childress School D is tr ic t  in Nashville, Arkan­

sas.



T. E. Patterson - D irec t 131

Q How long were you Superintendent o f  the Childress School 

D is tr ic t  in Nashville, Arkansas?

A Twelve years.

Q And as Superintendent what were your respons ib i l i t ie s ,

Mr. Patterson?

A Total administration o f  the school program.

Q Would you be more spec i f ic  and break that down?

A Personnel, curriculum, supplies, transportation, budget, 

building, everything under the administration.

Q Now, Mj,. Patterson, I show you here p l a in t i f f s '  exhibit

6, and I fo ld  back the name o f  the teacher whose pro f i l e  

y ou ' l l  see, and I show you one person who has a BA degree, 

fourteen years in the Morrilton School system, c e r t i f i e d  

to teach, ZZ graduate cred its ,  a co l lege major in English 

and a prior teaching experience in English; another per­

son with a B. A. degree, 6 hours of student teaching, 

c e r t i f i e d  to teach, no graduate credits , has a college 

major in Speech and English,*and a third person who has 

no teaching experience, is c e r t i f i e d  to teach, with no 

graduate cred its ,  who has a college major in Physical 

Education; and t e l l  you that two o f  these persons have 

been hired to teach English and Speech and drama; can 

you t e l l  me which o f  these three persons is least ^qualified 

for that position, on paper, one, two or three, in your 

opinion, o f  course?



13Z

A I f  you divoree the speech and drama fromt he english I 

can t e l l  you, for onlyo ne has college major in speech, 

and, therefore, I say that would be the one least quali­

f ied  to teach speech.

Q You have got two positions and one o f  these three per­

sons can't get  the job?

A And I was looking for an english teacher?

Q Yes, you were looking for an English teacher in the junior 

high school or senior high school?

A I would take the one with the ZZ - the one best quali­

f ied  to teach English, that would be the one with the ZZ 

hour graduate credits ,  i f  I was looking for an English 

teacher.

Q Would you say then that the person who has a col lege

major in physical education, with no teach experience, no 

graduate credits  would be the least quali f ied person o f  

the three?

A That's r ight.

Q Now, Mp. Patterson, I show you a person, the qua l i f ica ­

tions o f  aperson vho has a B. S» E« degree, 34 years 

experience, c e r t i f i e d  to teach mathematics, who has Z7 

graduate cred its ,  who has a college major in mathematics; 

and then I show you another person who has a B. S. E. 

degree, no teaching experience, who is c e r t i f i e d ,  no 

graduate credits and a major in physical education; and

T. E. Patterson - D irec t



T. E. Patterson -  D irec t 133

a third person who has a B. S. E. degree, two and a ha lf  

years teaching experience, is c e r t i f i e d ,  with no graduate 

credits , with a college major in mathematics, and ask 

you o f  the three people here which wcktild be the least 

quali f ied for amathematic teaching position in a high 

school?

A I would say the one with the physical education.

Q That is the second person?

A That’ s r ight.

Q Is that right7

A That's r ight.

MR. WALKER: Let the record show that w i l l  be

Mr. Paul Cody.

Q And going back up here t o  the f i r s t  one when we were 

talking about an English teacher, which would you say 

would be the least quali f ied?

A The third one.

MR. WALKER: Let the record show that would be

Miss Katherine Draper.

Q Now, I show you a person whose quali f ications are a B.jK. 

degree, seven years teaching experience, c e r t i f i c a t io n  

to teach in the high school, 26 graduate hours cred it ,  

a chemistry major; and also the record o f  a person who has 

a B. S. degree, one year teaching experience, c e r t i f i c a ­

tion, 6 hoursgraduate credits and a social science major,



T. E. Patterson - D irec t 134

and a sk you o f  thesetwo persons which would be best pre­

pared to teach science in a senior high school or a 

junior high school?

A The f i r s t  one.

Q Why, Sir?

A The one with the mofct experience and the Z6 hours graduate 

work over and a bove being a major in the physical science, 

where the other was a major in soc ia l .

MR. WALKER: Let the record show that that Mr.

Clement Smith would be superior to Mr. Ph i l l ip  Fagan .

Q Now, S ir ,  I show you, again with the names turned back, 

a person who hasa B. A. degree, one j^ars teaching ex­

perience, c e r t i f i e d ,  with no graduate cred its ,  but a 

major in soc ia l  science; and ai other person who has a 

B. A. degree, s ix  years teaching experience, no teaching 

c e r t i f i c a t e ,  12 graduate credits and a college major, 

elementary education; and a third person who has got a 

B. S. E. degree, three years teaching experience, an 

elementary c e r t i f i c a t e ,  master in science and education 

degree, and an elementary education major; a fourth per­

son who has a B. S. E. degree, with two years substitute 

teaching, c e r t i f i e d  to teach in elementary schools, with 

no graduate credits , with some elementary education; and 

I w i l la skyou  on the bas is  o f  your e xperience as a school 

administrator which o f  these persons would be the least



T. E. Patterson  - D irec t 135

quali f ied  f o r a  social science teaching pos i t ion  in either 

a junior high school or a senior high school?

A 1 woujd say the last with the elementary education major.

Q Why would you say that, Sir?

A Well, your r ecord doesn’ t r e f l e c t  any experience in the 

major f i e ld .  In other words, this elementary major to 

teach socia l  science you don’ t r e f l e c t  that they have any 

credits in this area, so, therefore, I would have to say 

that this person would not quali fy  as a social science 

teacher.

MR. WALKER: Let the record show that the

fourth person to whom Mr. Patterson referred is Mrs.

Ira Robertson.

Q Now, which would you s ay is the next least quali f ied  per­

son to teach social science?

A Least qualif ied?

Q Yes.

A What is this?

Q Not c e r t i f i e d  to teach high school, but is c e r t i f i e d  to 

teach elementary.

A I think I would take that one.

Q The second person; now, that person has a B. A. degree,

s ix  years teaching experience, an elementaryschool c e r t i ­

f ica te ,  twelve graduate credits and co l le g e  major in 

elementary education. Why would you take this as the



T. £. Patterson - D irec t 136

second one?

A Not having a transcript I would say she does not have a 

secondary c e r t i f i c a t e  and would not quali fy ;  on this I 

would say she is not a quali f ied  teacher.

MR. WALKER: Let the record show that that is

Mrs. Elaine Houston.

Q And I would l ike for you to  look further at Mrs. Houston's 

record o f  her personnel form and give the Court your 

opinion asto whether she can sa t is fy  the department's 

requirements for c e r t i f i c a t io n  in junior high or senior 

high school; would you read what she has l is ted  asthe 

hours in her f i e ld  o f  preparation?

A Well, l is ted  on here is education 31 hours, psychology

12 hours, childrens l i te ra ture ,  music, speech, art ,  three 

each, 6 graduate hours in education, 3 in math, 3 in 

speech; that s t i l l  wouldn't help her, she does not have 

any hours graduate vo rk in social studies according to 

this, that wouldn't help her as a teacher.

Q Lets go back to one other thing, and a sk you whether -

ask what is the spec i f ic  number of members o f  the Arkansas 

Teachers Association is?

A 3422, the fe st count.

Q To the best o f  your knowledge were the eight or nine

people dismissed from t heSul 1 ivan High School last year 

members o f  the Arkansas Teachers Association?



137

A Yes.

Q In 1S64-1S65 were Negro teachers in the State o f  Arkansas 

e l i g ib l e  to become members o f  the white Arkansas Educa­

tion Association?

A Yes.

Q How many o f  those persons who were in the Morrilton School 

D is tr ic t  were actually  members to your knowledge o f  the 

Arkansas Education Association?

A Only one to my knowledge.

Q Was that person also a member o f  the Arkansas Teachers 

Association?

A Let me explain th is. The dues are paid c o l l e c t i v e ly ,  and 

this teacher, I lost her - -

THE COURT: Would you speak a l i t t l e  more slowly

and more d is t inc t ly .

THE WITNESS: One teacher that I found that was

a member o f  the A. E. A. was attending the A . T.C. con­

vention, and inquiring why she mas a member o f  the A. E. A. 

and a ttending the A. T. A. i t  came out that the dues had 

been paid, I think by the Superintendent, and they had 

gone to the A. E.A., and subsequently in the communica­

tion we did get i t s t ra igh ten ed  out where the dues were 

paid to the A. T. A.

Q How much are those dues?

A They are f i f t e e n  dollars a year.

T, E. Patterson  -  D irec t



T. E* Patterson - Cross 138

Q And each o f  those teachers who taught in Sullivan High 

School paid those dues?

A Yes.

MR. WALKER: No more questions.

CROSS EXAMINATION

Questions by Mr. Light:

! Q Mr. Patterson, isthe only experience you have had as a

Superintendent o f  School at the Childress School D is tr ic t  

in Nashvil le, Arkansas?

A That’ s r i g h t .

Q Does that happen to be an integrateds chool d is t r ic t  - 

str ike that - is i t  a b i-rac ia l  school d is tr ic t?

A No.

Q I t  is  an a l l  Negro school d is tr ic t?

A A l l  Negro school d is t r i c t .

Q A l l  r igh t,  so you’ ve had no experience in employing 

teachers in an integrated school d is tr ic t?

A No.

Q And had no experience in employing or evaluating quali­

f icat ions o f  white teachers, is that correct?

A That’ s r ight.

Q But I take i t  in twelve years you haveprobably had f r e ­

quent occasion to review applicants for employment on the 

t e a c h in g s ta f f  and to make decisions with respect to



T. £. Patterson -  Cross 139

those applicants?

A That’ s r igh t.

Q Did you follow a practice o f  interviewing the applicants 

for a teaching position before passing judgment on wheth­

er you wanted them teaching under you?

A We have a conference.

Q As an aid to your judgment that you wanted to have i f  you 

could?

A That’ s r ight.

Q And in most instances did you infeerviewthese prospective

teachers?

A That’ s correct.

Q And that is quite important to you in making your judg-

ment, is i t  not?

A Yes.

Q Mr. Walker had you to r£fer to what has been introduced

as P l a in t i f f s ’ Exhibit 6, I be lieve; now, he folded this 

back so you couldn’ t see some names; you had seen that 

instrument before you sat down in the witness chair here

today, had you not, Mr. Patterson?

A Yes, I saw i t .

Q You had been over that with Mr. Walker or some of the

other lawers in preparation for your testimony here, had 

you not?

A Yes, he showed i t  tome.



T. E. Patterson - Cross 140

Q And you came here for the purpose, among others, of

tes t i fy in g  to your professional opinion about the quali­

f icat ions o f  these people l is ted  on p la in t i f f s *  Exhibite
6, is that correct?

A Well, I saw the whole fo lder;  now, I don' .̂ know which one 

is which.

Q Well, the purpose in your being here in ferge part is to 

t e s t i f y  about the quali f ications o f  these teachers in 

your o pinion?

A That's right.

Q And you knewthat before you came to  Court, d idn ’ t you?

A Yes. I knew al 1 o f  them.

Q And you did not intend to leave the impression with the 

Court or anyone else by this business o f  being folded 

back so you couldn't see the names that you didn't know 

who you were talking about here, did you?

A When he folded i t  back I d idn ' t  know which was which.

Q Yes, but you had had an opportunity to examine P la in t i f f s '  

exhibit 6 before you sat down here in the chair?

A Yes.

Q And gave your t estimony, is that correct?

A That's r ight.

Q Would you employ school teachers in a s chool d is t r ic t  i f  

you were superintendent in the business o f  employing

school teachers based on no more information than is re ­



T* E, Patterson -  Cross 141

A

Q

A

Q

A

Q

vealed about those teachers in p l a in t i f f s '  exhibit No. 6? 

You mean under any circumstances - in that case, yes; unde 

normal circumstances, no.

A l l  r ight, explain your answer so we w i l l  have a clear 

understanding ?

Well, i f  I have a broad se lect ion o f  applications and I 

could see this, then I would pick out those that had the 

best qua li f icat ions and a sk for an interview; i f  1 - in 

other words, i f  there was a teacher shortage as now I 

think 1 would take either one of them.

r

A l l  r igh t,  my question goes to the s ituat ion where you 

are exercising your judgment, not where you're taking 

somebody because he is the only one that is available, i f  

you have got more than one applicant or more than one 

potential application for a teaching job you want more 

information than you havegot here to se lec t  between those 

applicants or se lect  among them to determine who is the 

best qu a l i f i ed  for the job, do you not?

Yes.

As an administrator when you were superintendent o f  

schools would you think i t  would be a serious problem for 

a male high schoolstudent in a school to be intemperate 

in his practice with respect to drinking?

THE COURT: A male teacher? You mean student

or teacher?