Pratt v. Alabama State Tenure Commission Court Opinion

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and state your full name. ow 

THE WITNESS: Sidney Dorsey. 

EXAMINATION 

BY MR. BOGER: 

Q Officer Dorsey, what's your current 

employment? 

A I'm assigned to Zone 2 on the day 

watch, 

Q That's with the Atlanta Bureau of 

Police Services? 

A That's correct. 

Q And in 1978 what was your responsi- 

bility, what were your duties? 

A I was a detective in Homicide. 

Q Okay. When did you first become 

involved in the case of Warren McCleskey, the 

investigation into the death of Officer Schlatt? 

A I think {it was the following Monday. 

recall I was working a part-time job in the Five 

Points area, and the reason I remember, I 

remember the cars going past me rather fast on 

that particular day, and I think being as I was 

off on Saturdays and Sundays, apparently I 

started my part of the investigation on that 

following Monday. 

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Q And the Five Point area is near the 

Dixie Furniture Store where the crime took place? 

  

  

  

A A few miles east of it. 

Q Who was your partner at that time? 

A Best that’l can recall it may have been 

Qarris.) I don't remember exactly. 

Q I believe Mr. Harris gave testimony 

that his partner at the time had been Mr. Jowers. 

A It may have been. We get together 

occasionally. 

Q What was the relationship among the 

three of you with respect to this investigation? 

Who was in charge? 

A Well, Jowers was the lead investigator 

Primarily because the case was assigned to him. 

Q All right. And so you took orders in a 

sense from Jowers, or did You work independently? 

A No, I didn't take orders from Jowers. 
  

We had a very investigative and cooperative 

relationship and in that light we shared 

information and we worked together. I think 

Lieutenant Perry, W. K. Perry, was in charge of 

the Homicide Squad, and at that time if there 

were any orders given they came directly from 

him. But generally we all sort of worked on our 
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own, There was very seldom, if any, orders ever 
  

  

given, 

Q 80 it was a sense that you might go 
  

places that they wouldn't go, or you'd all go 
en 

together as a team or -- 

  

A That's right, That's right. And {if ve 

found it necessary to bring someone along 

concerning an investigative matter, then we'd 

team up. Sometimes one at a time, sometimes 
  

three at a time, depending on what the subject 

matter may have been. 

Q And you all must have talked to dozens 

of witnesses in this case; is that right? 

A Probably more than that. 

Q Okay. Did you talk to any of them by 

yourself, you know, without other officers 

present? 

A I don't recall.- I don't recall. 1 

probably did. 
  

Q Okay. There was a person by the name 

of Offie Evane~who ultimately you came in contact 

with; is that correct? 

  

A I know Offie Evans. 

Q Did you know him prior to this case? 

A I think so. 

  

  

 



  

  

  

Q And what was the basis of that, from 

the street or =-- 

A Again, I don't remember why, for what 

reason I was investigating something, but it 

seems that sometime, I guess prior to 1978, I had 
wll 

an occasion to go to the Federal institution on 

  

Boulevard and I went to a Balfway House. Now, I 

don't remember who was with me. I think I was 

accompanied by another detective. I was thinking 

it was Harris but I don't know who it was, I 

don't recall, 

I don't remember why I went there to 

investigate or what the investigative inquiry was 

about, but I think {it was that time that I first 

met Offie Evans. And I didn't go there 

specifically to meet him. I think I must have 

gone in search of something or in search of 

someone or to get some information and based on 

my -- the little time that I was there, I think 

it was at that time that I met him for the first 

time. 

Q And was he at that time incarcerated or 

at least housed in that institution? 

A I think so, yes. 

Q And was this the Federal C.T.P. 

  

  

 



  

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facility, is that what it was called? 

A I don't know what it was called at the 

time. I think his -- I think where he was housed 

as a Halfway House and I think the Pederal 

institution is right next door. 

Q Okay And this was, what, in the spring 

of 19787 

A I don't remember whether it was spring, 

winter, or anything. I just remember it was -- I 

think that was the first time I ever met him. I 

remember seeing him again, and this time I think 

he was out and he was at some woman's house and I 

think he must have called me there. I don't 

remember how, unless I just happened to have gone 

there and he was there, which surprised me, 

someplace around Mount Zion or Poole Creek Road, 

I don't remember exactly where the location was. 

I don't remember who the woman was and I don't 

remember why I was there, except I remember 

seeing him there and we talked briefly. 

And then I think on another occasion 

while he was again incarcerated, I saw him again 

and just ran into him down at the City Court and 

he was there again having recently been 

incarcerated and I spoke to him. 

  

  

 



  

  

  

And then on another occasion or two he 

may have called me when he wag incarcerated to 

come to see him or something, but I don't 

remember why. 

Q 80 you had a kind of acquaintance -- 

not friendship exactly, but a cordial 

relationship? 

A Yeah, I knew him and ~- I knew him and 

he was the kind of person that if he called me 

I'd go see him. 

Q Right, This was all -- these 

encounters you're describing all were prior to 

the Officer Schlatt/McCleskey case; is that 

right? 

A I can't honestly say whether all of 

these encounters were before. I'm thinking that 

-- I'm thinking that the first time I met him 

initially was before the McCleskey matter, the 

Schlatt matter. I'm thinking that some of the 

matters, some of the times that I talked to him 

and saw him came after. 

Q All right, Now, when you first met him 

at this Halfway House, were you in Homicide then 

or were -- 

A Yes. I'm sure of that.     

 



  

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Q Would this have been a -homicide 

investigation or it might have been a drug 

investigation? 

A It was probably a homicide 

investigation and I don't remember which one, 

because that was all I was doing at the time. 

Q Did you interview him when you went out 

there, to your best recollection? 

A I probably did talk to him and he may 

have offered me some information, but I honestly 

don't recall what case 1 was working, I don't 

remember what he told me, I don't remember what I 

had on, I don't remember what he had on. I don't 

remember anything. 

Q But he was the person over the years 

that would provide occasionally useful 

information to the department? 

A He has -- he has -- he has on occasjons 
  

that I can recall been cooperative with me. 

  
Q Right. And so when he called you'd 

come see him because it might well be the 
  

prospect of some information? 
    

A Yeah, yeah. I'd see him or hear from 
  

  

him £rom time to time. 
[—   

Q Now, do you have any personal notes 

  

  

 



  

  

  

that you keep about what you do everyday? Any 

diary or log or that sort of thing? 

A Not now. 

Q When you say not now, did you -- 

- A What I mean is I don't -- I don't have 

records, those kinds of records, that 1 may have 

had nine or ten years ago. I don't have those. 

Q You've looked in response to 

subpoenaes? 

A Yes, because, you know, since '78 I've 

gone through three or four or five different 

assignments and I just don't have those any more. 

Q Do you have any official files, apart 

from the files that the department itself keeps? 

A No, sir. 

Q Okay. Have you ever been able to use 

Mr, Evans as a witness in a case before? I mean, 

if you've gotten information from him, did you 

ever actually ~-- gotten information that wound up 

with his testifying in a case? 

A No, sir, 

Q Okay. But he was -- does the 

department keep a list of people who are useful 

informants or is it more a question of the 

detectives know from their experience who it is 

  

  

 



  

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they can count on in those situations? 

A It's generally a detective's individual 
  

relationship with the parties. It's nothing 
par 

that's shared blanketly throughout the whole 

  

  

department, There's no file drawer that says 

hax els the case of a guy -- here are a list of 

people that you can contact if you have an 

incident out here, no. It's generally the 

individual policeman's or detective's own plot. 

Q 80 you build up a kind of rapport -- 

A Rapport with your own people. 

(Whereupon, a discussion ensued off 

the record.) 

THE COURT: Okay. I'm going to have 

to suspend in a few minutes, You pick a 

break time. I've got a sentencing. You 

pick a good time to break. 

MR. BOGER: This is fine, Your Honor, 

to suit your convenience. 

THE COURT: All right, We'll recess 

for five minutes, 

(Whereupon, a recess was taken.) 

BY MR. BOGER: 

Q Offie Evans, during the spring of 1978 

was in a Halfway House in Atlanta. 

  

  

 



  

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A Yes, sir. - 

Q Serving out the last portion of a 

sentence for forgery that had been imposed on him 

in 1973, And the information that he provided at 

trial was that he was, in part, working with some 

Agents on a drug case at the same time. When he 

was out during the day he was involved in those 

activities. 

Did you know about his situation in the 

spring of 19787 

A No, sir, 1 didn't, 

Q Had you been aware that he had served 

as an informer and assistant to other agents of 

other State and Federal Government in addition to 

your relationship with him? 

A I was not aware of that. 

Q Okay. At some point, apparently, Mr. 

Evans walked away from the Halfway House and a 

Federal escape warrant went out for him and he 

was at some point in early July apparently 

brought back into custody, he was arrested. 

TBE COURT: Excuse me. You said a 

Federal state warrant. I don't think 

there is such a thing. 

MR. BOGER: I meant to say a Federal 

  

  

 



  

  

  

escape warrant, * 

TBE COURT: To the best of my knowl- 

edge it was a Federal warrant. 

MR. BOGER: Federal warrant for escape 

- 1] meant, Your Honor, excuse me, 

THE COURT: Oh, Federal escape. § 

misunderstood you, 

MR. BOGER: I may have misspoken, 

BY MR. BOGER: 

Q You said in the past on occasion he had 

given you a call. Did he call you once he was 

taken back into custody? 

A I don't think I knew that he was ever 

wanted to anything or had ever escaped. You 

know, what you're telling me now is very much new 

to me. 

Q Okay. But he found himself in the 

Fulton County Jail in July of 1978, Did you go 

see him at any point in July? 

A Counselor, I _do not recall going to see 

Offie Evans at the Fulton County Jail during that 

  

  

time or any time. 

Q Do you remember any meeting that might 

have been held between Mr. Evans and yourself and 

Detective Harris and Russell Parker at the jail? 

  

  

 



  

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A Counselor, in all honesty, I do not. 
  

Q Nelli, let me Show you a document and 

see if it will help refresh your recollection. 

This is a copy of the Plaintiff's Exhibit 9 which 

is in evidence. Do you recognize that document? 

A I don't recognize this document as 

being my particular document. It appears to be 

someone's notes but they certainly aren't mine. 

Q Let me ask you to examine it briefly 

and see if the contents of the documents at all 

refresh your recollection about a meeting that 

might have been held with Offie Evans at the 

Fulton County Jail. 

Let me actually give you the original 

of which that's a copy, if you don't mind, 

Officer. Let me direct your attention to the 

third or rather the fourth page of the little 

notes at the beginning, the little white notes 

that are appended by staple to the eight-and-a- 

half by thirteen legal page. 

A Fourth. page? 

= Q That's right, It says notes at the top 

in a box. 

A All right. Py 24.9 

Q Let me direct your attention to the 
TE —————— TE 

  

  

  

  

  

 



  

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bottom of that. It Bays interview by Detective 

8idney Dorsey, Detective Harris, R. J. Park and 

Deputy C. K. Hamilton. DO you remember that 
EE 

  

interview? 

  

- A don't. 

  

No knowledge or recollection at all? 

  

Q 

A I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 

Q Okay. Now, look over the notes. Those 

notes purported to be notes that Mr. Parker took 

at a meeting which ended -- look over the rest of 

the notes and see if that jogs your recollection. 

(Brief pause.) 
  

A (Continuing) All right. As I sat 
— 
  I 

around all day yesterday, last night, this 
  

  
florning and today and I still don't recall. 
  

bb Q Well, you testified you knew Offie 

Evans, you knew him beforehand and you had, 

really, you had kind of worked with him on some 

other matters. And at least with respect to the 

Warren McCleskey case you don't remember this 

particular meeting. Now, 1 focused in on one 

meeting. 

  

"ih A I'm not suggesting that the meeting 
  

SL a —— 

didn't take place, nor am I suggesting that I 
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wasn't there, I just don't recall being there 
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and for some reason no one else remembers my 

being there either. 

Q How do you know that? 

A I had spoken to Russ Parker a couple of 

days ago and -- you know, just in talking to him, 

I don't recall, you know, being there. 

Q Okay. So you and Mr. Parker had talked 

over this matter at some point prior to the 

testimony here? 

A Yes. 

Q Well, let me ask you this: You do 

recall, don't you, meeting with Mr. Evans at some 

point during the investigation of this case? 

A During the investigation of this case? 

Q This case, 

A I've talked to Offie Evans and it's 
  

been a long time since I've seen him anyway, but 

I've talked to him over the years during certain 

cases. I don't know on what case I spoke to him 

about and I ce don't recall whether it was 
——   

this particular case. I probably did, but I 
LT — 

don't-remewBber, I probably did, but I honestly 

don't remember, 

  

  

  

— Q If you had some documents or notes that 

might help you refresh your recollection? 

  

  

 



  

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A If 1 had my own notes, Jf I had my own 

documents, if there was something in the 

supplementaries that was brought to you on 

yesterday, that is the police documents, that 

there was some documentation in the D.A.'s file 

that I could look at that would say that that's 

something that I had did, that spoke to that, 

then yes, that might help me. But based on what 

I -- based on my own recollection, I don't recall 

any of that. 

Q Now, other folks on the force -- you 

said you worked in a way independently and yet 

Other officers 
———— 

on the force must have known that you had this 

you collaborated with each other. 
  

  kind of relationship with Offie Evans, that you'd 
  

known him from the past. 

A I don't think so. 

  
Q TT they had told you we've got a fellow 

S—— 

that we've heard may have some information, his 

name is Offie Evans, you would have volunteered 

at that point, well, I know Evans, I've talked to 

Evans before. 

A Probably. 

Q So if they had given you the 

information that they knew that Evans was around,   
  

  

 



  

  

  

you would have conveyed back what you knew of 

Evans, 

A I may have {f they had wanted -~- if 

they had asked me whether or not I felt that he 

was credible or not or whether he was reliable, I 

would give them my opinion. 

Q Your opinion was that he was reliable? 
  

A 1 would think -=- I don't recall him 

  

telling me anything that I found to be -- not to 

be true. And I don't remember anything right now 
  

  

that he has told me except that I don't -- based 

on my gut feeling concerning what our 

relationship was, I don't -- 1 never remember him 
  

having told me anything that I found later not to 
    

  

be true. 
  

Q All right. Some people you find are 

pretty unreliable informants and -- 

A Yeah, and 80 -- and if that's the case 

then if they -- if they -- generally you 

disassociate yourself with them one way or the 

other because otherwise it's a waste of time. 

Q Right, They're not providing 

information that really helps you get to the 

bottom of things. You know, Mr. Evans testified 

in this case eventually and talked about -- were 

  

  

 



  

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you present at that trial? Were you called as a 

witness, do you remember? 

A No. 

Q Okay. Mr. Evans also testified in 

state habeas corpus proceedings, Did you attend 

that proceedings? 

A No. 

Q During that proceeding Mr. Evans spoke 

about conversations that he had had with you at 

the time that the investigation was going on. 

And he mentioned a particular conversation, let 

me refer you to it, Page 122 of the State habeas 

corpus transcript. I know you said you weren't 

here and so you didn't have this information. 

Let me show you what Mr. Evans said. 

If you could read just that into the 

record from Mr, Stroup starts asking. 

M8. WESTMORELAND: Your Honor, for 

the record purposes at this time I would 

object to any intent to reopen any Giglio 

issue that might be involved. 

THE COURT: You're giving it to him 

to refresh his recollection -- 

M8. WESTMORELAND: If that's the 

purpose of it I don't have an objection, 

  

  

 



  

  

  

but I do object to reopening the Giglio 

claim. 

THE COURT: I would obviously sustain 

that objection but beyond that it's 

unnecessary for him to read it into the 

record to refresh his recollection. 

MR. BOGER: Well, Your Honor, of 

course our position, and we respect Your 

Honor's ruling on it, is the Giglio matter 

could be reopened under normal use if the 

kind of principles of newly developed 

evidence is present. 

THE COURT: I'm with you on that to 

begin with and obviously was favorably 

disposed and I have given that issue every 

ounce of favorable consideration that I 

can give you and I can't find any way you 

can do it. 

MR. BOGER: I understand Your Honor's 

ruling but I do think this bears on 

relationships that -- 

THE COURT: Because it is an instance 

of Office Evans testifying that he talked 

with Dorsey I think he ought to be able to 

look at it and see if that refreshes his 

  

  

 



  

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recollection as to any conversation. 

MR. BOGER: That's my purpose, Your 

Honor. 

TBE COURT: To that extent you 

certainly may show it to him and he can 

read it and state whether his recollection 

is refreshed, 

BY MR. BOGER: 

    

  

Q Do you recall that conversation? 

A No, I don't. By 

Q Do you have any reason to doubt the 

conversation took place that Mr, Evans testified 

under oath at the trial that he had had a meeting 

with you at which a discussion of that sort took 

place? 

A I do not recall this meeting nor do I 
  

== nor can I understand why I would make him such 
— 

a promise, 

    
Q But you don't have any recollection of 
  

it at this time is what you're saying? 
em o 

A No, I don't, 
  

  

Q okay. If Mr. Evans of course was 
p= 

(Jeenereving at that point back in 1981 we're here 

six years later in 1987. Your testimony is, 1 
  

  

CL — 

take it from what you previously said, that it's 
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possible that you did meet with Mr. Evans on some 
—— 

occasion during the investigation of this case. 

A Yes, this {is fecy possible.) 

Q And that it in that sense remembrance 

  

  

  

  

of Mr. Evans could reflect that meeting that you 

had with him at that- ev? 
a 

A Cit could be. 

Q Okay. Do you -- you also testified, I 

  

  

  

believe, that you don't recall meeting Mr. Evans 

at any time at the jail, because I had said on 

July the 12th at the jail. 

Did you meet with him anywhere, at the 

Atlanta Bureau of Police Services offices or the 

Fulton County Courthouse? 

A I -- no, 1 don't recall. Am I assuming 

he was in custody? 

Q Either in custody on the street in the 

spring or the summer of 1978? 

A No, I don't.reme r ever meeting him 
  

  

out. I think the only time I remember seeing 

Offie Evans outside of being in custody was at a 

woman's house, 1 think, somewhere around Mount 

Zion Road or Poole Creek area, That's the only 

time I ever remember seeing him out. I think 

every other time I've ever heard mention of Offie 

  

 



  

  

  

Evans he's always been in custody someplace. 

Q Let me ask you one question about 

procedure, and I simply don't know the answer to 

this. When you go to see an inmate say of the 

jail, Fulton County Jail, you're a police 

officer, do you have to sign in and sign out? 

A Yes. 

Q S50 you make a contemporary record at 

that point. 

A That's correct. 

Q So if we were able to obtain those 

records it would conceivably, as you indicated 

earlier, help refresh your recollection about 

when you had spoken with somebody. 

A Yeah. 

Q Do you have to write the name of the 

inmate at that time or do you simply write 

Officer -- 

A No, I think we have to write the name 

of the party that we're to visit. 

Q Okay. . Does {t ever happen that you go 

to visit one person and you wind up, because you 

know several people in the jail, kind of walking 

from cell to cell? 

A I think it's happened. I think I've 

  

  

 



  

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been upstairs and asked the deputy {f he would 
get some other guy. B80 I seem to Lemember having 
done that before. 

Q Okay. Instead of going three or floors 
back -- 

A Rather than come right on back 

downstairs I stay Up and ask them to let me gee 
8Omeone else, 

MR. BOGER;: Excuse me one second, 

Judge, 

(Whereupon, a discussion ensued off 
the record.) 

THE COURT; Let me ask you: At any 
time did you ever -- let me give you 
context, One of the notes I seen which 
isn't in evidence, somebody characterized 
Offie Evans as being a Professional snitch 
and from what You've testified I gather 
eu thought of him normally that he usually 
was informing when he was in trouble, from 
what you've. told me, 

Did there Come a time when you did 
anything, directly or indirectly, to prompt 

  

  him to obtain evidence from McCleskey while 
  they were in Jail? 
  

        

            

  
     



  

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THE WITNESS: NO, Sir. - 
  

THE COURT: Know of anything like that 

being done? 

THE WITNESS: I don't know of anything 

  

of my own personal knowledge, of anything. 
  

THE COURT: Have you ever heard of 
  

anything like that -- 
  

THE WITNESS: No, 8ir,. 

THE COURT: -=- In this case? 

  —— 

     
BY MR. BOGER: . 

Q Let me follow up on that, though. Your 

testimony has also been you don't even remember   
   meeting with Offie Evans during this period at 

all? 

A No. 

Q Okay. Even though {it may well have 

    been that you did so because there are the 

documents that reflect that? 

A Yes, 
  

  

  
edie O GER" I don't have any further 

  

questions of the witness, 

THE COURT: Do you have anything, 

Mary Beth? 

MS. WESTMORELAND: Just one moment, 

Your Honor. 

    
  

 



  

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I don't have any questions, Your 

Honor. 

THE COURT: All right, You're excused. 

THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

(Whereupon, the witness was excused 

from the witness stand.) 

TBE COURT: Call your next witness. 

MR. BOGER: Russell Parker, Your 

Honor. 

THE COURT: In view of all the bloody- 

shirt rhetoric that's been associated with 

this Court, I feel obliged to observe that 

the three investigating officers are all 

black. 

MR. BOGER: I think most of our 

evidence went to patterns of discrimina- 

tion. 

TBE COURT: I don't know what your 

evidence was but I have certainly been 

inundated by letters from people who are 

being stirred up by somebody. I have read 

an awful lot of the media coverage and an 

awful of legal literature without going 

any further, And any semblance between 

what I heard in court and what has come in 

  

  

  

 



  

  

  

and state your full name. - 

THE WITNESS: S8idney Dorsey. 

EXAMINATION 

BY MR. BOGER: 

Q Officer Dorsey, what's your current 

employment? 

A I'm assigned to Zone 2 on the day 

watch. 

Q That's with the Atlanta Bureau of 

Police Services? 

A That's correct. 

Q And in 1978 what was your responsi- 

bility, what were your duties? 

A I was a detective in Homicide, 

Q Okay. When did you first become 

involved in the case of Warren McCleskey, the 

investigation into the death of Officer Schlatt? 

A I think it was the following Monday. 

recall I was working a part-time job in the Five 

Points area, and the reason I remember, I 

remember the cars going past me rather fast on 

that particular day, and I think being as I was 

off on Saturdays and Sundays, apparently I 

started my part of the investigation on that 

following Monday. 

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Q And the Five Point area is near the 

Dixie Furniture Store where the crime took place? 

A A few miles east of it. 

Q Who was your partner at that time? 

A Best that I can recall it may have been 

Hatt is. I don't remember exactly. 

Q I believe Mr, Harris gave testimony 

that his partner at the time had been Mr. Jowers. 

A It may have been. We get together 

occasionally. 

Q What was the relationship among the 

three of you with respect to this investigation? 

Who was in charge? 

A Well, Jowers was the lead investigator 

primarily because the case was assigned to him, 

Q All right. And so you took orders in a 

sense from Jowers, or did you work independently? 

A No, I didn't take orders from Jowers. 

We had a very investigative and cooperative 

relationship and in that light we shared 

information and we worked together. I think 

Lieutenant Perry, W. K. Perry, was in charge of 

the Homicide Squad, and at that time if there 

were any orders given they came directly from 

him. But generally we all sort of worked on our 

  

  

 



  

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own. There was very seldom, if any, orders ever 

given, 

Q 8o it was a sense that you might go 

places that they wouldn't go, or you'd all go 

together as a team or -- 

A That's right, That's right, And {ff we 

found it necessary to bring someone along 

concerning an investigative matter, then we'd 

team up. Sometimes one at a time, sometimes 

three at a time, depending on what the subject 

matter may have been. 

Q And you all must have talked to dozens 

of witnesses in this case; is that right? 

A Probably more than that. 

Q Okay. Did you talk to any of them by 

yourself, you know, without other officers 

present? 

A I don't recall. I don't recall. I 

probably dia. 

Q Okay. There was a person by the name 

of Offie Evans who ultimately you came in contact 

with; 18 that correct? 

A I know Offie Evans. 

Q Did you know him prior to this case? 

A I think so. 

  

 



  

  

  

Q And what was the basisof that, from 

the street or -- 

4 Again, I don't remember why, for what 

reason I was investigating something, but it 

seems that sometime, I guess prior to 1978, I had 

an occasion to go to the Federal institution on 

Boulevard and I went to a Balfway House. Now, I 

don't remember who was with me. I think I was 

accompanied by another detective. I was thinking 

it was Harris but I don't know who it was. I 

don't recall, 

I don't remember why I went there to 

investigate or what the investigative inquiry was 

about, but I think {it was that time that I first 

met Offie Evans, And I didn't go there 

specifically to meet him. I think I must have 

gone in search of something or in search of 

someone Or to get some information and based on 

my —- the little time that I was there, I think 

it was at that time that I met him for the first 

time. 

Q And was he at that time incarcerated or 

at least housed in that institution? 

A I think so, yes. 

Q And was this the Federal C.T.P. 

  

  

 



  

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facility, is that what it was called? 

A I don't know what it was called at the 

time. I think his -- I think where he was housed 

as a Halfway House and I think the Federal 

institution is right next door. 

Q Okay And this was, what, in the spring 

of 19787? 

A I don't remember whether it was spring, 

winter, or anything. I just remember it was -- I 

think that was the first time I ever met him. I 

remember seeing him again, and this time I think 

he was out and he was at some woman's house and I 

think he must have called me there. I don't 

remember how, unless I just happened to have gone 

there and he was there, which surprised me, 

someplace around Mount Zion or Poole Creek Road, 

I don't remember exactly where the location was. 

I don't remember who the woman was and I don't 

remember why I was there, except I remember 

seeing him there and we talked briefly, 

And then I think on another occasion 

while he was again incarcerated, I saw him again 

and just ran into him down at the City Court and 

he was there again having recently been 

incarcerated and I spoke to him. 

  

  

 



  

  

  

And then on another occasion or two he 

may have called me when he was incarcerated to 

come to see him or something, but I don't 

remember why. 

Q So you had a kind of acquaintance -- 

not friendship exactly, but a cordial 

relationship? 

A Yeah, I knew him and -- I knew him and 

he was the kind of person that if he called me 

I'd go see him. 

Q Right, This was all -- these 

encounters you're describing all were prior to 

the Officer Schlatt/McCleskey case; is that 

right? 

A I can't honestly say whether all of 

these encounters were before. I'm thinking that 

== I'm thinking that the first time I met him 

initially was before the McCleskey matter, the 

Schlatt matter. I'm thinking that some of the 

matters, some of the times that I talked to him 

and saw him came after. 

Q All right. Now, when you first met him 

at this Halfway House, were you in Homicide then 

orf were -—-- 

A Yes. I'm sure of that. 

  

 



  

  

  

Q Would this have been a -homicide 

investigation or it might have been a drug 

investigation? 

A It was probably a homicide 

investigation and I don't remember which one, 

because that was all I was doing at the time. 

Q Did you interview him when you went out 

there, to your best recollection? 

A I probably did talk to him and he may 

have offered me some information, but I honestly 

don't recall what case 1 was working, I don't 

remember what he told me, I don't remember what I 

had on, I don't remember what he had on. I don't 

remember anything. 

Q But he was the person over the years 

that would provide occasionally useful 

information to the department? 

A He has -- he has ~-- he has on occasions 

that I can recall been cooperative with nme. 

Q Right. And so when he called you'd 

come see him because it might well be the 

prospect of some information? 

A Yeah, yeah. I'd see him or hear from 

him from time to time. 

Q Now, do you have any personal notes 

  

 



  

  

  

that you keep about what you do everyday? Any 

diary or log or that sort of thing? 

A Not now. 

Q When you say not now, did you -- 

- A What I mean is I don't -- I don't have 

records, those kinds of records, that I may have 

had nine or ten years ago. I don't have those. 

Q You've looked in response to 

subpoenaes? 

A Yes, because, you know, since '78 I've 

gone through three or four or five different 

assignments and I just don't have those any more, 

Q Do you have any official files, apart 

from the files that the department itself keeps? 

J 3 No, sir. 

Q Okay. Have you ever been able to use 

Mr. Evans as a witness in a case before? I mean, 

if you've gotten information from him, did you 

ever actually -- gotten information that wound up 

with his testifying in a case? 

A RO, Bir. 

Q Okay. But he was -- does the 

department keep a list of people who are useful 

informants or is it more a question of the 

detectives know from their experience who it is 

  

 



  

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they can count on in those situations? 

A It's generally a detective's individual 

relationship with the parties. It's nothing 

that's shared blanketly throughout the whole 

department, There's no file drawer that says 

Rare's the case of a guy -- here are a list of 

people that you can contact if you have an 

incident out here, no. It's generally the 

individual policeman's or detective's own plot. 

Q 80 you build up a kind of rapport -- 

A Rapport with your own people. 

(Whereupon, a discussion ensued off 

the record.) 

THE COURT: Okay. I'm going to have 

to suspend in a few minutes. You pick a 

break time, I've got a sentencing. You 

pick a good time to break. 

MR. BOGER: Thia i8 fine, Your Honor, 

to suit your convenience. 

THE COURT: All right, We'll recess 

for five minutes, 

(Whereupon, a recess was taken,) 

BY MR. BOGER: 

Q Offie Evans, during the spring of 1978 

was in a Halfway House in Atlanta. 

  

 



  

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A Yes, sir. - 

Q 8erving out the last portion of a 

sentence for forgery that had been imposed on him 

in 1973, And the information that he provided at 

trial was that he was, in part, working with some 

agents on a drug case at the same time. When he 

was out during the day he was involved in those 

activities. 

Did you know about his situation in the 

spring of 19787? 

A NO, 8ir, 1 4idn't. 

Q Had you been aware that he had served 

as an informer and assistant to other agents of 

other State and Federal Government in addition to 

your relationship with him? 

A I was not aware of that. 

Q Okay. At some point, apparently, Mr. 

Evans walked away from the Halfway House and a 

Federal escape warrant went out for him and he 

was at some point in early July apparently 

brought back into custody, he was arrested. 

THE COURT: Excuse me. You said a 

Federal state warrant. I don't think 

there is such a thing, 

MR. BOGER: I meant to say a Federal 

  

 



  

  

  

escape warrant, v 

THE COURT: To the best of my knowl- 

edge it was a Federal warrant. 

MR. BOGER: Federal warrant for escape 

1 meant, Your Honor, excuse me, 

THEE COURT: Ooh, Federal escape. 3 

misunderstood you. 

MR. BOGER: 1 may have misspoken. 

BY MR. BOGER: 

Q You said in the past on occasion he had 

given you a call. Did he call you once he was 

taken back into custody? 

A I don't think I knew that he was ever 

wanted to anything or had ever escaped. You 

know, what you're telling me now is very much new 

to me. 

Q okay. But he found himself in the 

Fulton County Jail in July of 1978. Did you go 

see him at any point in July? 

A Counselor, 1 do not recall going to see 

Offie Evans at the Fulton County Jail during that 

time or any time. 

Q Do you remember any meeting that might 

have been held between Mr. Evans and yourself and 

Detective Harris and Russell Parker at the jail? 

  

  

   



  

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A Counselor, in all honesty, I do not. 

Q Well, let me show you a document and 

see if it will help refresh your recollection. 

This is a copy of the Plaintiff's Exhibit 9 which 

is in evidence. Do you recognize that document? 

A I don't recognize this document as 

being my particular document, It appears to be 

someone's notes but they certainly aren't mine, 

Q Let me ask you to examine it briefly 

and see if the contents of the documents at all 

refresh your recollection about a meeting that 

might have been held with Offie Evans at the 

Fulton County Jail. 

Let me actually give you the original 

of which that's a copy, if you don't mind, 

Officer. Let me direct your attention to the 

third or rather the fourth page of the little 

notes at the beginning, the little white notes 

that are appended by staple to the eight-and-a- 

half by thirteen legal page. 

A Fourth. page? 

-Q That's right, It says notes at the top 

in a box. 

A All zight, 

Q Let me direct your attention to the 

  

 



  

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bottom of that. It says interview by Detective 

8idney Dorsey, Detective Barris, R., J. Park and 

Deputy C, K. Hamilton. DO you remember that 

interview? 

- A 1 don't. 

Q NO knowledge or recollection at all? 

A I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 

Q Okay. Now, look over the notes. Those 

notes purported to be notes that Mr. Parker took 

at a meeting which ended -- look over the rest of 

the notes and see if that jogs your recollection. 

(Brief pause.) 

A (Continuing) All right, As I sat 

around all day yesterday, last night, this 

morning and today and I still don't recall. 

Q Well, you testified you knew Offie 

Evans, you knew him beforehand and you had, 

really, you had. kind of worked with him on some 

other matters. And at least with respect to the 

Warren McCleskey case you don't remember this 

particular meeting. Now, I focused in on one 

meeting. 

A I'm not suggesting that the meeting 

didn't take place, nor am I suggesting that I 

wasn't there. I just don't recall being there 

  

 



  

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and for some reason no one else remembers mY 

being there either. 

Q How do you Know that? 

A I had spoken to Russ parker a couple of 

days ago and -- you know, just in talking to him, 

I don't recall, you know, being there. 

Q okay. So you and Mr. Parker had talked 

over this matter at some point prior to the 

testimony here? 

A Yes. 

Q Well, let me ask you this: You do 

recall, don't you, meeting with Mr. Evans at some 

point during the investigation of this case? 

A purring the investigation of this case? 

Q This case. 

A I've talked to offie Evans and it's 

been a long time since 1've seen him anyway, but 

I've talked to him over the years during certain 

cases. I don't know on what case I spoke to him 

about and I certainly don't recall whether it was 

this particular case. 1 probably did, but I 

don't remember. 1 probably did, but 1 honestly 

don't remember. 

Q If you had some documents or notes that 

might help you refresh your recollection? 

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A 1f I had my own notes, if I had my own 

documents, if there was something in the 

supplementaries that was brought to You on 

yesterday, that is the police documents, that 

there was some documentation in the D.A.'s file 

that I could look at that would say that that's 

something that I had did, that spoke to that, 

then yes, that might help me. But based on what 

I -- based on my own recollection, I don't recall 

any of that. 

Q Now, other folks on the force -- you 

said you worked in a way independently and yet 

you collaborated with each other. Other officers 

on the force must have known that you had this 

kind of relationship with Offie Evans, that you'd 

known him from the past. 

A I don't think so. 

Q If they had told you we've got a fellow 

that we've heard may have some information, his 

name is Offie Evans, you would have volunteered 

at that point, well, I know Evans, I've talked to 

Evans before, 

A Probably. 

Q So if they had given you the 

information that they knew that Evans was around,   
 



  

  

  

you would have conveyed back what you knew of 

Evans. 

A I may have {f they had wanted ~-- {if 

they had asked me whether or not I felt that he 

was credible or not or whether he was reliable, I 

would give them my opinion. 

Q Your opinion was that he was reliable? 

A I would think -- I don't recall him 

telling me anything that I found to be -- not to 

be true. And I don't remember anything right now 

that he has told me except that I don't -- based 

on my gut feeling concerning what our 

relationship was, I don't -- I never remember him 

having told me anything that I found later not to 

be true. 

Q All right, Some people you find are 

pretty unreliable informants and -- 

A Yeah, and 80 -- and if that's the case 

then if they -- if they -- generally you 

disassociate yourself with them one way or the 

other because otherwise {t's a waste of time. 

Q Right. They're not providing 

information that really helps you get to the 

bottom of things. You know, Mr. Evans testified 

in this case eventually and talked about -- were 

  

 



  

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you present at that trial? Were you called as a 

witness, do you remember? 

A No. 

Q Okay. Mr. Evans also testified in 

state habeas corpus proceedings. Did you attend 

that proceedings? 

A No. 

Q During that proceeding Mr. Evans spoke 

about conversations that he had had with you at 

the time that the investigation was going on. 

And he mentioned a particular conversation, let 

me refer you to it, Page 122 of the State habeas 

corpus transcript. I know you said you weren't 

here and so you didn't have this information. 

Let me show you what Mr. Evans said. 

If you could read just that into the 

record from Mr. Stroup starts asking. 

M8. WESTMORELAND: Your Honor, for 

the record purposes at this time I would 

object to any intent to reopen any Giglio 

issue that might be involved. 

THE COURT: You're giving it to him 

to refresh his recollection -- 

MS. WESTMORELAND: If that's the 

purpose of it I don't have an objection, 

  

 



  

  

but I do object to reopening the Giglio 

claim. 

THE COURT: I would obviously sustain 

that objection but beyond that it's 

unnecessary for him to read it into the 

record to refresh his recollection. 

MR, BOGER: Well, Your Honor, of 

course our position, and we respect Your 

Honor's ruling on it, is the Giglio matter 

could be reopened under normal use if the 

kind of principles of newly developed 

evidence is present. 

THE COURT: I'm with you on that to 

begin with and obviously was favorably 

disposed and I have given that issue every 

ounce of favorable consideration that I 

can give you and I can't find any way you 

can do it. 

MR. BOGER: I understand Your Honor's 

ruling but I do think this bears on 

relationships that -- 

THE COURT: Because it is an instance 

of Office Evans testifying that he talked 

with Dorsey 1 think he ought to be able to 

look at it and see if that refreshes his    



  
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recollection as to any conversation. 

MR. BOGER: That's my purpose, Your 

Honor. 

TBE COURT: To that extent you 

certainly may show it to him and he can 

read it and state whether his recollection 

is refreshed. 

BY MR. BOGER: 

Q Do you recall that conversation? 

A No, 1 éon't., 

Q Do you have any reason to doubt the 

conversation took place that Mr, Evans testified 

under oath at the trial that he had had a meeting 

with you at which a discussion of that sort took 

place? 

A I do not recall this meeting nor do I 

-- nor can I understand why I would make him such 

a promise. 

Q But you don't have any recollection of 

it at this time is what you're saying? 

A No, I don't. 

Q okay. If Mr. Evans of course was 

testifying at that point back in 1981 we're here 

six years later in 1987. Your testimony is, I 

take it from what you previously said, that it's 

  

  

 



  

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possible that you did meet with Mr. Evans on some 

occasion during the investigation of this case. 

A Yes, this is very possible. 

Q And that it in that sense remembrance 

of Mr. Evans could reflect that meeting that you 

had with him at that time? 

A It could be. 

Q Okay. Do you -- you also testified, I 

believe, that you don't recall meeting Mr. Evans 

at any time at the jail, because I had said on 

July the 12th at the jail. 

Did you meet with him anywhere, at the 

Atlanta Bureau of Police Services offices or the 

Fulton County Courthouse? 

A 1 == nO, 1 don't recall, Am I assuming 

he was in custody? 

Q Either in custody on the street in the 

spring or the summer of 1978? 

A No, I don't remember ever meeting him 

out. I think the only time I remember seeing 

Offie Evans outside of being in custody was at a. 

woman's house, I think, somewhere around Mount 

Zion Road or Poole Creek area, That's the only 

time I ever remember seeing him out. I think 

every other time I've ever heard mention of OQOffie 

 



  

  

  

Evans he's always been in custody someplace. 

Q Let me ask you one question about 

procedure, and I simply don't know the answer to 

this. When you go to see an inmate say of the 

jail, Fulton County Jail, you're a police 

officer, do you have to sign in and sign out? 

A Yes. 

Q 50 you make a contemporary record at 

that point. 

A That's correct. 

Q So If we were able to obtain those 

records it would conceivably, as you indicated 

earlier, help refresh your recollection about 

when you had spoken with somebody. 

A Yeah. 

0] Do you have to write the name of the 

inmate at that time or do you simply write 

Officer -- 

A No, I think we have to write the name 

of the party that we're to visit, 

Q Okay. . Does {t ever happen that you go 

to visit one person and you wind up, because you 

know several people in the jail, kind of walking 

from cell to cell? 

A I think it's happened. I think I've 

  

 



  

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been upstairs and asked the deputy {f he would 

get some other guy. So I seem to remember having 

done that before. 

Q Okay. Instead of going three or floors 

back -- 

A Rather than come right on back 

downstairs I stay up and ask them to let me see 

someone else, 

MR. BOGER: Excuse me one second, 

Judge. 

(Whereupon, a discussion ensued off 

the record.) 

THE COURT: Let me ask you: At any 

time did you ever -- let me give you 

context. One of the notes I seen which 

isn't in evidence, somebody characterized 

Offie Evans as being a professional snitch 

and from what you've testified I gather 

ou thought of him normally that he usually 

was informing when he was in trouble, from 

what you've. told me. 

Did there come a time when you dia 

anything, directly or indirectly, to prompt 

him to obtain evidence from McCleskey while 

they were in jail? 

  

  

 



  

  

  

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THE 

WITNESS: NO, Sir. - 

COURT: Know of anything like that 

being done? 

THE WITNESS: I don't know of anything 

of my own personal knowledge, of anything. 

THE 

anything 

THE 

THE 

BY MR. BOGER: 

Q Let 

testimony has 

COURT Have you ever heard of 

like that -- 

WITNESS: No, sir. 

COURT: -=- In this case? 

me follow up on that, though. Your 

also been you don't even remember 

meeting with Offie Evans during this period at 

all? 

A No. 

Q Okay. Even though {t may well have 

been that you did 80 because there are the 

documents that reflect that? 

A Yes, 

MR. BOGER: I don't have any further 

questions of the witness. 

THE COURT: Do you have anything, 

Mary Beth? 

MS. WESTMORELAND: Just one moment, 

Your Honor. 

  

 



  

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I don't have any questions, Your 

Honor. 

THE COURT: All right. You're excused. 

THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

(Whereupon, the witness was excused 

from the witness stand.) 

THE COURT: Call your next witness. 

MR. BOGER: Russell Parker, Your 

Honor. 

THE COURT: In view of all the bloody- 

shirt rhetoric that's been associated with 

this Court, I feel obliged to Observe that 

the three investigating officers are all 

black. 

MR. BOGER: I think most of our 

evidence went to patterns of discrimina- 

tion. 

THE COURT: I don't know what your 

evidence was but I have certainly been 

inundated by letters from People who are 

being stirred up by somebody. I have read 

an awful lot of the media coverage and an 

awful of legal literature without going 

any further, And any semblance between 

what I heard in court and what has come in 

  

  

 



    

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