Clark v. Little Rock Board of Education Joint Appendix Volume I
Public Court Documents
January 1, 1970
Cite this item
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Clark v. Little Rock Board of Education Joint Appendix Volume I, 1970. 657ab8a4-ad9a-ee11-be37-00224827e97b. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/68e750a7-f014-46a7-ba7c-11f95b517c46/clark-v-little-rock-board-of-education-joint-appendix-volume-i. Accessed October 10, 2025.
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llniteb States (Urntrt af Appeals
F or t h e E ig h t h Circu it
No. 19795
D elores C lark , e t al.,
vs.
Appellants,
T h e B oard of E ducation of t h e
L itt l e B ock S chool D istrict , et al.
No. 19810
Delores Clark , et al.,
vs.
Appellees,
T h e B oard of E ducation of t h e
L itt l e B ock S chool D istrict , et al.
APPEALS FROM THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE
EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
JOINT A P P E N D I X
V O L U M E 1 — Pages la - 408g
ITbrschel H. F riday
B obert V . L ig h t
1100 Boyle Building
Little Bock, Arkansas 72201
J o h n W . W alker
B u rl C. B otenberry
1820 W est 13th Street
Little Bock, Arkansas 72202
J ack G reenberg
J ames M. N abrit, I I I
N orman J . Ch a c h k in
10 Columbus Circle
New York, New York 10019
Attorneys for Appellants
' . - S
A
I N D E X
Page
Docket Entries .............................................. la
Motion for Further Relief .................................. 5a
Answer of Defendants to Motion for Further Relief .......... l6a
Motion to Intervene as Parties-Plaintiff ................... 24a
Complaint of Plaintiffs-Intervenors ..................... 4.. 27a
Letter of District Court Dated July 18, 1968 ............... 32a
Order Permitting Intervention ............................... 33a
Answer to Complaint of Plaintiffs-Intervenors .............. 34a
Transcript of Proceedings August 15-16, 1968 ............... 38a
Response to Motion of McDonald Applicants for Intervention .. 408a
Order Denying Leave to Intervene McDonald, et al............ 408c
Report and Motion .......... ................................ 408d
Transcript of Proceedings December 19, 20 and 24, 1968 ..... 409
Memorandum Opinion .......... ............................... 891
Decree............... 922
Notice of Appeal ................ ........................ . 924
Notice of Appeal ........................................... 925
Notice of Cross-Appeal ..... 926
la
DOCKET ENTRIES
DELORES CLARK ET AL v. THE BOARD OP EDUCTION OP THE LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL
DISTRICT ET AL
YOLANDA G. TOWNSEND ET AL - Plaintiff interveners
LR-64-C-155 LITTLE ROCK CLASSROOM TEACHERS ASSOC. -Intervener
DATE FILINGS—PROCEEDINGS
CLERK’S FEES AMOUNT
REPORTED IN
EMOLUMENT RETURNSPLAINTIFF DEFENDANT
11-4-64 Complaint filedj summons Issued and handed Mars cal
Motion for preliminary injunction filed. Copie 3 to 4ar shal
Points in support of complaint filed
11-6-64 Marshal's return filed showing service on all iefen3an ;s on
November 4,1964
11-14-64 Answer filed. Certificate of service
— Statement in opposition to motion for prallinln ajiuccfcioi
Certificate of service.
11-20-64 Amended motion for preliminary injunction file 3
11/24/64 Hearing before Young, J. at 9 -30 A. M. on petj.tion for preliminary
Injunction. Case set for full hearing on Ja.nuary 5, 196^ .
12/18/64 Interrogaories to! defendants by plaintiffs fi Led. Cei’tifit:at<: of service
12/28/64 Objection to interrogatories filed by defendaiits. Certific ate of ssrvice
II Defendant's statement In support of objection to Iriterrogat ories fi Led.
1/4/64 Answer to interrogatories filed by defendants . Certlfloate 0f ser\rice.
1/5/65 Trial to Court before Young, J. begun at 9:30 V. M. not; cornf>let;ed at 4:55
p. m. and continued until tomorrow.
/S / 6 5 Trial continued from Jan. 5, 19 6 5. Testimony :ompli;te<1. Cciur1 orders
that Moore child be admitted to West Side Jimior Hid;h Scllo o ! and
that an attorney's fee of $250.00 be allowec1___ rei it of tht case
under advisement.
bys~ foi1/21/65 Defendants' Exhibit No. 9 filed. Copies to a itys for part:Les by-at
defendants.
1/4/65 Trial Memorandumfor plaintiffs filed. Certif icate of service .
/23/65 Motion by defts for authorization to file S'appleinen1;al
Report, for approval of procedures embodied In rspor’t, arid cipproval
for following procedures filed. Certifica ;4 of seiVice
(Copy of Supplemental report attached to mo lion)
722/65 Plaintiffs' response to defts' motion and supplemen cal repo] J'lied.
Certificate of service.
/6/65 Letter notice from Judge Young reflecting that Mr. :3raiiton Lias wlthdrawn
as one of the attorneys for the plaintiffs h3rein fi!.ed.
It Conference with Judge Young at 11 am re issues lnvo lve<i and tr:.al date.
To meet with members of the board and school offl cia:Ls an<1 a<Ivlse the
court on a suggested trial date.
5/27/65 Supplemental Report by Little Rock School Dist:’ict :’ilc’d. q ert if icate of £
1/13/66 Order by Judge Young filed making a part of th 3 rec erd Mr. 1nri(lay1 s letter
j ■■ Jan. 11th, to which is attached certain info:'’mat'llm c"ompIL.ed 'by-'Mr7~Fair)
Depijry^ut)errn'rerit,‘'0,r''i;chTT0Tb--;---Oopi^§=ttr-airtform»ys--tor - parti e g«•——
2a
Docket Entries
CIVIL
Delores Clark, eb al v. Board of Ed. LR 64 C-155
L. R. School Diet.
000X1:7 Young, J.
DATK FlUHtf PWOCgECHMOK asmc’B ¥wm A M O S .KSFOBTr«Tkd mirfKNT
mmW-AUMTirF DOTMBANT KM OCA/1weru
1/14/66 Memorandum Opinion of Judge Young filed; propc sed
7_
sdom if hoice
filed with the Court 4/23/65 approved, orovj ded that witl•In 15 da 7B
the Board will amend plan to provide: a chc ice tto ?ill Studf nts 0 f t Y
class represented by pits in 12th grad to tiansf<ir tJo anc the r hig 1
school at the end of school semester in Jan 196 i; annuaI1 'freed im c
choice" to be exercised under reasonable resulat one and cord 1 1 1 n vs
promulgated by the Board, etc.. Copies tc COUI .eel
l/£/66_ Report and motion for approval of action tak<in fi Led by d ifeiid a n t s
Certificate of service.
#
W 66 Order by Young, J. filed dismissing herein a ; the co 3t O f de Tendaiits .
_____Copies to attys for parties.
3/4/66 Notice of Appeal filed by plaintiffs. Copy to a :ty for ■eft■s by
Clerk's Office.
3/30/66 Appeal Bond filed. Transcript mailed to Court of Appea Is
4/4/66 Designation of Record on appeal filed. Certificat s of 3eryice.
4/21/66 Certified copy of Order Brom Clr. Court of lippeaIs 'or tlle ith Cir .
denying motion for advancement on the ca .enda”; >rder(id
that appellants may dispense with the p:"epar iti<>n of a lsrinted
rdcord and the Court wlU hear appeal on -;he 0cig:.nal '1 1 <33 of
the District Court and briefs of the par-;ies.
4-22-66 Original file mailed to Court of Appeals
9/14/66 Transcript of testimony taken before Judge Y01 ng, .Jan. 5, t 965
filed. (E.West - 2 vols.)
4-18-67 Mandate from Court of Appeals; reversing order lnsofar as 1
conform with the requirements as set forth in ;he 0pin-Lon 0:” file Coirt
of Appeals; remanded for further proceedings t< ins are addi ;loiial
requirements of a valid plan are inserted and :hat the futu: <>perat ion
of the Plan is in conformity with Opinion of C<urt ->f \ppea!Ls; in al 1
other respects the order of the District Court is Arr 1 -’med.
Copy of the Opinion of the Court of Appeals 01 the me:’its itnd
Copy of the Opinion of the Court of Appeals oi the pei itioi ft r
rehearing filed.
7-12-6' Motion for further relief filed by plaintiffs
7/28/67 Order by Young, J. filed extending through® AtR. 2 5, :967 'irm in vhicb
defendant may answer or otherwise plead here in fLle< . Ci>pii s to attyfor parties.
6/25/68 Motion for further relief filed by plaintiffs viith exi ibit "A at telched
Certificate of service. “ j
3a
Docket Entries
LR 64- c-155
DELORES CLARK, et al v. L.R. School List. Young, J.
DATE FiUNas-HrwocaaroiNos CLJCRK'S FSOEffi A MOLNTED IN *W<T «N8H-AJNTIFF KMOCUImarruf
CO ■: CO1̂
1 — Motion Qf Yolanda G. Townsend. & minor, bv hei fat]ter and
next friend, Dr. W. H. Tovmsend, et al to nter 'em as
parties plaintiff filed. Proposed intervertion con■jplairt £attach sd.
5/23/68 Points and authorities in support of motion tc int trveine f jled .
Vlo/68 Letter order by Young, J. filed extending unt il We d. July 17th,
time for response of deft, to pending motior s. opy of 1etter to
attorney for plaintiff.
1/11/66 Answer of defendants to motion for further relief lied. Certf. of serv.It Response of defendants to motion for leave to intei vente flled. C/ 5
7/18/66 Motion filed by Yolanda G. Townsend et al era ited DV rudge Yo mg
Letter memo signed by Judge Young setting heai ing >n notior fcr rel ief
on August 15th,1968 at 9:30 a.m. further stat ing that ansfcer of
defendants to motion is "essentially meaning ess ",
Complaint of Plaintiffs - Intervenors filed
7/25/68 Answer of defendants to complaint of intervener’s fi:.ed
8-14-68 Motion for leave to intervene filed by LR Classroom Teachers Ass 'n.
8-15-68 Order granting motion to Intervene by Classroom Teaciierc■ sigr.ed by
Judge Young filed and Intervention filed
H&arlng_Qn. motion for further relief hefnre .Tnrig■A Hoi R }
begun at 9:30 a.m. case not concluded, ■o— --
8-16-68 Hearing on motion continued: at conclusion of test;.mory by Dr.Goldhammer,
motion was made and granted bv Judge Young that thii3 hearinc bf
until sometime in December, the School Board tc file3 nc t lat p-p than
November 15th,1968, a plan either by zoning or some otl er p]an where there
only be schools; that by next year, the faculty mus' be desc gra ted
either by ratio to the races with pupils or nunber <>f teache rs in
_distrlcti_motlcyi_fog_Sgunsel fees with referenc e to facul tv def=e err at nnnot ruled on at this time.
9/6/68 Reporter's transcript of trial Aug. 15 & 1 6 , :968 Ln 1(wo VC Is, (D.Leasure
11/15/66 Report and Motion pursuant to Order of Court file i b; defe:nd)ints. C/S.
1 1/18/66 Court Reporter's steno-type notes on trial of 1 ug.l 5th and !6tl filed.
1 1/26/66 Motion of Michael McDonald, et al, to interven^ as oar' ies ’>la; ntiff
filed.
Z" Points and authorities In support of motion to inte -ve:te fi: ed
12-10 -6 3 Response to motion for leave to intervene as partie s pla intiiff,flief by
defendants. C/S
12-10-68 Memorandum for defendants, filed by attorney for de fenleiants
12/13/66 ---n--- Motion of Mrs. Doyle Speights, et al, to inte: vene as part; es Pltf. filed
Points and authorities in.support of motion to C/S
4a
Docket-'Entries
Delores Clark, et al, v. L. R. School Dlst. LR 64 C-
CIVIL DOCKET _____________________________ Y o u n g , J . ____________________________
DATE FILINGS—PROCEEDINGS
CLERK’S FEES AMOUNT REPORTED t? EMOLUMENT
RETURNSPLAINTIFF DEFENDANT
12/16/68 Deposition of Charles A. Brown on behalf of pi tfs. flled.
12/18/6? Order by Judge Young that motions to intervent! Of lie)lael leDi3nald , e
and Mrs. Doyle Speights, et al, not timely :“iled ; cej>unse!. fc>r the se
parties may participate as amicus curiae to file wr: tten st; temer ts
of their positions and legal memorandums in supp 3rt if d<!Si]•ed, fii
Copies to counsel
1 2-23-68 Deposition of Floyd W. Parsons filed
12-19-68 Trial n f hpfn™ .T.irfjro f>«r.Hr,n V
1 2-20-68 Trial continues- to be completed December 23rd. 1968
Clerk's minutes for hearing on Dec.l8th.19th.and 201;h flied
12-24-68 Testimony in case completed before Judge Gordon E, Y<>unf; and the case
taken under advisement.
1 2-27-68 Motion for reconsideration of order dated Deceniber L8, ]968, deilying
leave to intervene of Michael M. McDonald et a'. fll
1/ 8/69 Order by Judge Young denying motion of Michael Me Donaid . et nl . for •
consideration, filed. Copies to counsel
1/10/69 Volumes III and IV of trial, Dec. 1 9 , 20, 19 6 8, filed. (Dea n R;3gan)
1-13-69 Volume V of V Reporter's transcript of trial Si.led.
2/3/69 Notice of Appeal filed by Michael McDonald, et al, app Lican : 1 s
for intervention. Certificate of service.
2/3/69 Bondfor costs on appeal filed.
2-14-69 Stenotype notes filed by Ragon, Reporter, for near}ngs on:
1 2-16-6 8, 1 2-19-6 8, and 1 2-20-68.
2/18/69 Pltfs ' memorandum of points and authorities, fi led, /Q
2/18/69 Defts' memorandum brief filed. C/S
2/26/69 Reporters stenotype notes filed for 12-24-6§
Attorney a:__ __
John W, Walker TSarold B. Anderson 1880 W, Thirteenth Little Rock, Arkansas 72202for plaintiff’s and
10 Columbus Circle,New York, N.Y. 10019
John Pk SizemoreMcKath,Leatherman, Wooae* Youngdahl711 West Third St^________________
Little Rock, Arkansas 72201
Robert Y, Lijsht Smith, Williams, Priday & Bowen 1100 Boyle Bldg. •
Little Sock, Arkansas 72201 for defendants
Eugene Warren
Tower Building~ Little Itockjj Arkansas 72201 ______ for Claasroom Teachers
al - motion to intervene
MOTION FOR FURTHER RELIEF
5a
f i l e d
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS JUH 2^ '.968
WESTERN DIVISION
DELORES CLARK, ET AL.,
Plaintiffs,
5N. h. McClellan, clerk
— *— “ "Dsf.’ Cie-s
CIVIL ACTION
VS.
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE :
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, :
ET AL., ,
Defendants. :
NO. LR 64 C -155
MOTION FOR FURTHER RELIEF
Come now the plaintiffs, and the class they represent,
by undersigned counsel, and respectfully move the court for furthex
relief as appears more fully below, and for cause state:
1. Defendants have been under continuing order of this
Court and the United States Court of Appeals for the Eighth Cir
cuit, since 1956, to operate the Little Rock public schools in a
manner consistent with the requirements of Brown v. Board of
Education and the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States
Constitution. The orders required that the dual system of separate
schools for Negro and white pupils be eliminated by the beginning
of the September, 1963 school term.
2. During the past twelve years, defendants have uti
lised varying pupil assignment procedures, including pupil screen
ing, pupil placement laws, and "freedom of choice,n all of which
have had the effect of continuing the dual school attendance
pattern.
3. Defendants operate the following schools which are
populated solely by Negro pupils:
(Elementary) 1967-1968
a. Bush Enrollment
----------
b. Carver 824
c . Gibbs 459d. Gill am 170e. Granite Mountain 476
f . Ish 543*
g* Pfeifer 202
‘constructed for initial
use in 1965
Motion for Further Relief 1967-1968
Enrollment
b , E i g h t e e n *29
i. Stephens 370j. Washington 513
Total 4152
(Junior High Schools)
a. Booker 750
b , Dunbar 707
Total 1457
(Senior High)
a. Horace Mann 820
Total 820
6a
Thus, of the 8,495 Negro pupils enrolled in the Little Rock School
District in the 1967-68 school term, 6429 or 75.7 per cent attend
ed all-Negro schools. Moreover, approximately 764 more Negro
pupils attended all-Negro schools in Little Rock in 1968 than in
1957. (In 1957 there were approximately 5665 Negro pupils in the
system, of whom nine attended white schools.)
4. a. During the 1967-68 school term Negroes not
attending all-Negro schools were concentrated at the following
previously predominantly white schools described by Superintendent
”over-integrated": % of School
a. Central High School*
No. Pupils
— u r — .
Population
" IT*---
b . West Side Junior High 484 47%
c. Centennial (Elementary) 131 43%
d. Kramer (Elementary) 75 39%
e. Lee (Elementary) 117 31%
f. Mitchell (Elementary) 251 72%
Total 1473
•Central is included because of the obvious
trend to a considerably changed racial
balance.
B. The total number of Negro students in the six
"over-integrated" schools was approximately 1473 in 1967-68, or
71% of all the Negro pupils in "integrated" schools; the number
of Negro pupils in the other predominantly white schools was
approximately 587 or 29%.
C. On information and belief, under the present
plan the enrollment at Central High School will be approximately
- 2-
Motion for Further Relief
7a
30* Negro during the 1968-69 school year. This will be caused in
part by the planned opening of the Parkview School, located in tin
far western part of Little Rook, in September 1968, which will
enroll approximately 250 white pupils in grade ten who would
otherwise be assigned to Central; and, in part, by the expected
enrollment of approximately 250 Negro pupils in all grades in
Central in September, 1968.
D. On information and belief, under the jpresent plan
the enrollment at West Side Junior High School will be approximate -
1 65 to 70* Negro during the 1968-69 school year. This will be
Ci..sed in large part by the planned opening of the Parkview
School, locatedin the far western part of Little Rook, which will
enroll approximately 250 pupils in grades eight and nine who
otherwise would have been assigned to West Side; and, in part, by
the assignment of 250 additional Negro pupils to West Side.
E. On information and belief, under the present plan,
the enrollment at Mitchell Elementary School during the 1968-69
school year will be approximately 90 to 95* Negro. This will be
caused by the declining choices of white pupils to attend an "over-
integrated" school and by the steadily increasing number of choices
fer this particular school by Negro pupils.
■£. During the 1967-68 school term the following schooli
were more than 95* white:
No. Pupils
* of School
Population
Hall High School 1428 99*
Forest Heights Jr. 987 99*
Henderson Jr. H. 893 98*
Southwest Jr. H. 1139 97*
Pulaski Heights Jr. 667 95*
(Elementary Schools)
Bale 477 99*
Brady 6689 99*
Fair Park 243 100*
Forest Park 439 99*
Franklin 571 99*
Garland 318 96*
Jefferson 529 100*
McDermott 312 99*
Meadowcliff 550 100*
Pulaski Heights 469 99*
Terry 462 100%
Williams 703 99*
-3-
Motion for Further Relief
Thus, of the approximately 16,018 white pupils in the system
10,716, or two-thirds, of them attend schools where their majority
race percentage exceeds ninety-five per cent.
Between 1955 and 1968, the Little Rock School
District knowingly constructed the following schools on a racial
neighborhood basis:
A. ALL-NEGRO SCHOOLS:
(1) Horace Mann High School, located in the
Eastern section of Little Rock in the midst of a
heavily Negro section of town, was initially used in
:
September 1957. The initial staff of this school was
all Negro; and during the 1967-68 school term only one
of the faculty members of Mann was white. All of the
secretaries and other staff personnel were Negro.
(2) Booker Junior High School, named for a locally
prominent Negro attorney, initially opened in September
1963, is located near Horace Mann in the Eastern part
of the city and is likewise in the midst of a heavily
Negro section. The initial staffing of Booker was all-
Negro; and the present percentage of white personnel is
below tan per cent.
(3) Ish Elementary School, named for a locally
prominent Negro physician, initially opened in Septem
ber , 1965. This school is in the midst of an urban
renewal area which, before renewal was racially mixed,
but which after renewal, became almost totally Negro.
The initial staffing of Ish was all-Negro; and the
present percentage of white personnel is below ten per
cent.
(4) Gill am Elementary School, named for a locally
prominent Negro family, initially opened in September,
1963 or 1964 as an all-Negro school with an all-Negro
staff. It is located in the midst of an urban renewal
area which before renewal was racially mixed, but which
after renewal became all-Negro.
8a
.4..
Motion for Further Relief
B. ALL- WHITE SCHOOLS:
(1) Hall High School, initially opened in 1957
as an all-white school. The school was located in a
heavily and burgeoning white populated area in the
northwestern part of the city. However, approximately
one hundred Negro pupils were within the Hall attend
ance area in 1957; but they were all assigned to the
East Side Horace Mann High School. Since 1957, the
areas near Hall in which Negroes lived have been con
demned by the Urban Renewal authorities; consequently,
only a handful of Negro pupils now live within the
Hall rone. The staff of this school is approximately
one per cent Negro (one Negro teacher) and during the
1966-67 school term, only five Negro students were
enrolled at Hall.
Moreover, the six white school board members all live
in the Hall zone as do most of the major white staff
members. The school is thus high prestige and, the
preference of most white pupils.
(2) Forest Heights initially opened as an all-
white school in 1956 or 1957. The same essential
description in paragraph one of B, supra, applies
to Forest Heights, which is located several blocks
from Hall High School.
(3) Southwest Junior High School, initially
opened in 1956 or 1957 as an all-white school. It
is located in the midst or near several all-white
sub-divisions and the capacity of the school is con
sistent with the neighborhood population.
(4) Henderson Junior High School, initially openec
in 1963 or 1964. It is located in the extreme western
part of the city which is more than 99% white. The
staff and student body have always been predominantly,
if not all, white.
9a
-5-
10a
Motion for Further Relief
CI> K»wtwcHff H i m m Y School, lowtad in
the ******* southwestern section of th* city, initially
opened ia Its#. It im located ia to# ssidst of aa all-
obit# subdivision (headoweliff) mmd Is of sufficient
*is# to ae©»«s«<o4*t* omly the mmhmx of pupils raeldiag
within the iwedlate neighborhood, burin? th« l»i7~fft
school ter*, th* staff uii all-white.
OTasu L Lsx& nthm schools
{*) Mobenaotfc Sleeeatary Schoo l, i n i tially opened
In l i f t o r IM 7 , la located l a th e e u tr e a e w este rn peart
of th e city in the eldat o f s e v e ra l a l l - w h i te a u n d iv i-
• l e a * , f a o a l ty and s t a f f com position ia a o » ily w h ite
with tha possible eaoeptioa of an* or two Macro teachera,
th* ana* ia tree for tha following school#< Sale (19S9),
brady (1991), f e r r y (1999) and M iilia » a ( ) .
(7) The only elementary eohool constructed aloe®
1934 which hea a significant percentage (11%) of uegro
pupils ia the demine School, (1960) located in the
southwestern pert of the ocwmmi&y near e aaall iiegro
neighborhood. Sat, the pattarn of faculty and staff
***L<$nm*ht» continues.
8. The defendant# have by their sit® selection, school
construction, pupil asaigweent, and faculty desegregation pro
cedure# and policies effectively contributed to the creation of
a racially divided ooawsunity in which the elimination of the dual
system is made more difficult in 1963-69 titan in 1934-33 or,
indeed, in 1957-38,
7, The defendant# have received ssajor support for
their pro-aegrogation site selection and construction police#
front the city goveruaeot of bittle hock and the little sock
dousing authority.
8 . The schools operated by defendants for low Income
egro pupils are physically inferior to the schools operated for
11a
Motion for Further Relief
middle and high income whit® pupils. For example, some Negro
school* haw® many temporary facilities, while ®om® white schools
have air conditioning, carpeting, etc.
of that law to the detriment of Negro pupils.
10. The district pursues discriminatory practices in
the selection, utilization and placement of administrative staff,
principals, coaching staffs, and faculty. For example, despite
specific court orders re faculty assignments, assignment patterns
have not changed.
alternate plans of desegregation, one popularly styled The Oregon
Report prepared by a team of professional educators from the
University of Oregon? and the other styled the "Parsons Report"
prepared by defendant Parsons. One copy of each report is being
lodged with the Court.
9. The district pursues a policy and practice of apply™
t with the intent
11. The district has rejected or refused to implement
-7-
WHEREFORE, plaintiffs move this Court for an order requiring
that defendants submit a new plan for the desegregation of the
Little Rock Public Schools and for further cause state as follows:
1. On May 27, 1968, the United States Supreme Court
decreed that freedom of choice plans are constitutionally unac
ceptable where "there are reasonably available other ways, such
for illustration s zoning, promising speedier and more effective
conversion to a unitary nonracial school system." Green v. County
School Board of New Kent County, Virginia, 36 U.S.L.Week 4480.
-- 2. Plaintiffs accordingly submit that defendants may
not assign students, for the 1968-69 school year, pursuant to their
choices without first demonstrating to this Court, by evidence,
that other methods of pupil assignment, as, for example, by unitary
nonracial iones or pairing, or both, woulo not produce greater
desegregation. In any event, plaintiffs allege upon information
and belief that the assignment or students upon the basis of a
unitary system of nonracial geographical attendance zones or upon
the basis of a plan for the consolication of grades or schools,
' or both, would more speedily an< effectively effectuate a unitary
nonracial system.
3. If plaintiffs and the Court are to be able intelli
gently to appraise the new plan, defendants must be reauired to
define v:hat criteria were used in determining geographic : ones
or in pairing schools anc to furnish appropriate source materials
indicating the locations of the various schools ana the residences
of the pupils in the system. See Davis v. Board cf School Commis
sioners of Mobile County, No. 25175, 5th Cir. , tedded March 12,
1963, and In particular Section IV of the decree.
WHEREFORE, plaintiffs pray that this Court, in viev: of
the short time remaining before the 1968-69 school year, enter a
decree directing:
1. That defendants immediately conduct a survey of their ,
school system and report to the Court and the plaintiffs the
result of such survey. The report shall induce:
12a
Motion for Further Relief
13a
Motion for Further Relief
a. ' mp of the district showing each school (by
type: elementary, junior or senior high) air th*
real: enee , by race and grade, of each student in the
syateai during the 1967-63 school year}
b. separate description of each school showings
type of school, grades taught, whether accreditee,
acreage, su«ber cf regular *n> portable classrooms
(excluding gymnasiums, laboratories jhc ether specialised
facilities);
c. ' list of all sites currently own*'.' or which the
district plans to acquire, their sizes an*, intend®* use;
d. For each bulldog 0 0%, wnev construction or
planned: location, cate construction will commence,
expected date c.f opening, type of school intended, anti
cipate*. capacity, number c£ regular an portable class-
rooeis.
2. That defendants submit and serve upon the plaintiffs
a. The report of the survey described in 1, above,
b. A pi.n fer the assignment cf >11 students for the
196S-6S School year upon the basis cf * unitary system
of nonr*eial geographic >ttend*nce ;on«s or a pi n for
the consol if ation cf grades or schools, or both
c. ' description cf the criteria use: in determining
c m lines or for consolidating schools;
c‘. A report to bo apoenceo tc the plan shewing the
expected enrollment f r the 1369-69 school ye r by grace
and by race, for each school.
Th t plaintiffs be a 1loved 15 rays in which tc file
a. Scheduling a hearing on the proposer plan ano
objections or amendments no later than July 31, 1961.
Res .............
in* the Court, no later than July 1, 1363:
objections or amendments tc the plan.
14a
Motion for Further Relief
JOHN W. WALKER
NORMAN J. CHACHKIN
HAROLD ANDERSON
1304-B Wright Avenue
Little Rock, Arkansas 72206
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
I do hereby certify that I have served a copy of the
foregoing Motion for Further Relief upon the attorney for eefenaants
Herschel H. Friday, Esq., via depositing same in the U. S. Mail,
postage prepaid, addressed to him at his office at 1100 Boyle
Building, Little Rock, Arkansas, this 25 day of June, 1963.
15a
ANSWER OP DEPENDANTS TO MOTION FOR FURTHER RELIEF
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
■ WESTERN DIVISION
DELORES CLARK, ET AL PLAINTIFFS
v . NO. LR 64 C-155
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE DEFENDANTS
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, ET AL
ANSWER OF DEFENDANTS TO
MOTION FOR FURTHER RELIEF
COME THE DEFENDANTS .and for the ir answ er to P la in t if f 's
Motion for Further Relief , s ta te :
1.
State tha t D efendants have been p ar t ies to various l i t ig a t io n and
s ta te tha t Orders have b een entered by Courts in that l i t ig a t io n and that
D efendan ts are affec ted by th o se O rders . S tate tha t the Orders speak for
t h e m s e lv e s .
2.
State tha t D efendants have u t i l iz ed varying pupil a ss ignm ent
p rocedures which inc lu d ed , among other th in g s , some a sp e c ts of screen ing
and p lacem ent and tha t Defendants have been u ti l iz ing the "freedom of choice
procedure most re c e n t ly .
3.
Admit the a l le g a t io n s of Paragraph 3 of the M o t i o n , but by way
of further answ er s ta te th a t w hile 9 out of 5 ,665 Negro pupils were in an
in teg ra ted s i tua t ion in 1957 - 58, 2 ,066 Negro pupils were in an in tegra ted
s i tu a t io n in 1967 - 68, rep resen ting 24 .3% .
4.
A. W ith re fe rence to the a l le g a t io n s of Paragraph 4 A of the
* - .ft * ■ ■' ' _
M o t i o n , admit tha t the f igures and pe rcen tag es perta in ing to Negro
a t ten d an ce at the schoo ls l i s te d are a c c u ra te .
I
B. W ith re fe rence to the a l le g a t io n s of Paragraph 4 B s ta te tha t
the to ta l number of Negro pupils in the s ix sch o o ls l i s te d in Paragraph 4 A
w as approxim ate ly 1,473 in 1967 - 68, or 71% of a l l the Negro pupils in
schoo ls a t ten d ed by both Negro and W hite pupils and that the number of
Negro pupils in o ther schoo ls a t tended by both Negro and W hite pupils
w as 587 or 29%.
C . W ith re fe rence to the a l leg a t io n s of Paragraph 4 C , on the
b a s i s of information av a i lab le a t th is time (which may change before the
opening of the 1968 - 69 schoo l year) , the pupil enrollment a t Centra l High
School w il l be approxim ate ly 26% Negro. This w ill re su l t from the a s s i g n
ment of a l l pupils to C en tra l who ask ed to go there and the number of pupils
who w il l a t tend Centra l High School in 1968 - 69 w il l be a ffec ted by high
school pupils a ttending other schoo ls in the D is tr ic t by v ir tue of ass ignm en t
there pursuant to the freedom of cho ice procedures being u ti l ized by the Board,
including Parkview School loca ted in the w es te rn part of Little Rock (on the
b a s i s of information p resen t ly a v a i la b le , approxim ately 250 White pupils
will a t tend Grade 10 at Parkview who would o therw ise have a t tended C en tra l) .
D. W ith re fe rence to the a l leg a t io n s of Paragraph 4 D, s ta te tha t
on the b a s i s of p resen t information the enrollment a t W est Side Junior High
School for the 1968 - 69 schoo l year will be approxim ately 65% - 70% Negro.
This w ill re su l t from the a ss ignm en t of a l l pupils to W est Side who ask ed to
go t h e r e .
16a
Answer of defendants to Motion for Further Relief
- 2 -
E. W ith re fe rence to the a l leg a t io n s of Paragraph 4 E of the
M otion, s ta te th a t the enrollment a t M itche ll Elementary School during
the 1968 - 69 schoo l year will b e approxim ate ly 85% - 90% Negro, which
will re s u l t from the a ss ig n m en t of a l l p u p ils , Negro and W hite , to M itche ll
(
who a sk ed to go th e re . Further an sw er in g , D efendants s t a t e th a t the number
of Negro pupils a t tend ing M itche ll has s te a d i ly in c re a se d over the p as t years
and th e percen tage of Negro pupils a ttend ing M itche ll has s te a d i ly inc reased
over th e p a s t y e a r s .
Second 4
(The Motion has two paragraphs numbered 4).
Admit the a l le g a t io n s of Paragraph Second 4 of the M otion.
5 .
A. W ith re fe rence to the a l le g a t io n s of Paragraph 5A of the M otion,
D efendants s ta te :
1. Horace Mann High School is lo ca ted in the e a s te rn s ec t io n
of L ittle Rock in the m idst of a se c t io n th a t is heav ily populated by N egroes.
It w as in i t ia l ly u sed in Septem ber, 1957; the in i t ia l s ta f f was a l l Negro;
during 1967 - 68 only one of the facu l ty members was W hite; and all of the
s e c re ta r ie s and other s ta f f personnel were Negro.
2. Booker Junior High School was named for a lo ca l ly prominent
Negro atto rney; was in i t ia l ly opened in Septem ber, 1963; is loca ted near
H orace Mann High School in the e a s te rn part of the C ity ; is in the m idst
of a s e c t io n that is heavily populated by Negroes; the in it ia l s taff was all
Negro; and the percen tage of W hite personnel during the 1967 - 68 school
year was be low 10%.
3. Ish Elementary School was named for a lo ca l ly prominent Negro
physic ian ; was in i t ia l ly opened in Septem ber, 1965; the in it ia l s taff ing was
all Negro; the percen tage of W hite personnel during the 1967 - 68 schoo l year
was be low 10%; and is lo ca ted in an Urban Renewal a r e a . D efendan ts do not
17a
Answer of Defendants to Mbttonfor Further Relief
have su ff ic ien t information a s to the ra c ia l mixture of the " a r e a " before
and af te r the in s t i tu t io n of the Urban Renewal Project to admit or deny
the a l le g a t io n s b f the M otion perta in ing there to . .
4 , Gilliam Elementary School w as named for a lo c a l ly prominent
Negro family; w as in i t ia l ly opened in Septem ber, 1963; the in i t ia l pupil
popula tion w as a l l Negro; the in i t ia l s ta f f w as a l l Negro; and is lo ca ted
in an Urban Renewal a re a . D efendan ts do not have su ff ic ien t information
a s to the ra c ia l mixture of the "a rea" before and a f te r the in s t i tu t io n of
the Urban Renewal Project to admit or deny the a l leg a t io n s of the Motion
per ta in ing th e re to .
B. With re fe rence to the a l le g a t io n s of Paragraph 5 B of the
M otion, D efendan ts s ta te :
1. Hall High School was in i t ia l ly opened in 195 7; the in i t ia l pupil
population was a l l White; the schoo l is loca ted in the northw est part of the
C ity in a s e c t io n that is h eav i ly populated by W a i te s . D efendants do not
have su ff ic ien t information a s to the number of Negro pupils who lived in
the proximity of Hall High School in 195 7, but s ta te to the b e s t of the ir
knowledge and information, a l l such Negro pupils did a t tend Horace Mann
High School during 195 7 - 58 . Since 195 7 there have been Urban Renewal
P rojects involving a reas in which Negroes l i v e d . Defendands do not know
how many Negro pupils live near Hall (or w ith in the boundaries of the
a re a s tha t have been se t up under the freedom of cho ice procedures b e c a u s e
of overcrowding at H all) , but admit tha t the number is sm a ll . During the
1967 - 68 schoo l y ear , there were S Negro pupils who a t tended Hall and
there w as 1 Negro teacher on the s ta f f . All of the p resen t members of the
Board of Directors of the Little Rock School D is tr ic t live near Hall (in the
a rea determined a s a re su l t of overcrowding a s aforesa id) excep t Mr. Pa tte rson .
18*
Answer of Defendants to Motion for Further Relief
- 4 -
2. Forest H eights Junior High School opened in September, 1955;
the in i t ia l pupil population w as W hite; the school is lo ca ted sev e ra l blocks
from Hall High School.
3 . South W est Junior High School w as in i t ia l ly opened in September,
1956; the in i t ia l pupil population was White; and is loca ted in the midst or
near sev e ra l r e s id e n t ia l s u b -d iv is io n s which are heav ily populated by W hites
(Defendants do not have information as to w hether any of th e se s u b -d iv is io n s
are a ll White as a l leg ed ) .
4 . Henderson Junior High School was in i t ia l ly opened in September,
1964; it i s loca ted in the extreme w es te rn part of the City; and the genera l
area around the school is heav ily populated by W hites (Defendants do not
have accu ra te information a s to the pe rcen tag e) . The s ta ff and pupil
population have been predominantly W hite .
5 . Meadowcli.ff Elementary School is loca ted in the extreme
southw este rn part of the City; D efendants do not know when it w as in i t ia l ly
opened , but a ssum e 1956 is accu ra te ; is loca ted in the midst of a su b -d iv is io n
(M cadow cliff) , the population of which is a l l or su b s ta n t ia l ly a ll White
(Defendants do not have accu ra te information a s to the percen tage); and
during the 1967 - 68 school y ea r , the s ta ff w as 'White. As to the s iz e of the
s ch o o l , the number of pupils who a ttended during 1967 - 68 was 312.
6. McDermott Elementary School w as in i t ia l ly opened in September,
19 67; is loca ted in the extreme w este rn part of the C ity in the midst of
seve ra l r e s id en t ia l su b -d iv is io n s , the population of which is all or su b s tan t ia l ly
all White (Defendants do not have the exac t p e rcen tage) . During the school
year 1367 - 68, there 2 Negro teachers on the s ta f f . The same s ta tem en ts
arc genera l ly true a s to Bale Elementary School (Bale was opened in September,
1959); Brady Elementary School (Brady was opened in September, 1961); Terry
Elementary School (Terry was opened in September, 1965); and W illiams
Elementary School (Williams was opened in September, 1958).
19a
Answea of Defendants to Motion for Further Relief
- 5 -
7. Romine Elementary School w as opened in Septem ber, 1960;
is loca ted in the sou thw este rn part of the City; during the schoo l year
1967 - 68 the percen tage of Negro pupils was 21%; and there were 2
Negro te a c h e rs on the s ta f f .
Further answ er ing , a s to the genera l su b je c t m atter of the a l leg a t io n s
of Paragraph 5 of the M otion, the p e rcen tag es with re fe rence to pupils and
s ta ff w ill change for the 1968 - 69 school y ear , but are not s e t forth a t th is
time b e c a u se pupil and s ta f f a s s ig n m e n ts are not final a s of th is t im e. Also,
by w ay of furnishing com plete inform ation, M eadowcliff Elementary School
and Brady Elementary School were not construc ted by the D efen d an ts . These
schoo ls were construc ted by the Pu lask i County Specia l School D is tr ic t
and were acqu ired by v ir tue of the annexa tion of te rr i to ry to the Little Rock
School D is t r ic t .
6 .
Deny the a l leg a t io n s of Paragraph 6 of the M otion.
7.
Deny the a l leg a t io n s of Paragraph 7 of the M otion.
8.
Deny the a l leg a t io n s of Paragraph 8 of the M otion.
9.
Deny the a l leg a t io n s of Paragraph 9 of the Motion.
1 0 .
Deny the a l leg a t io n s of Paragraph 10 of the M otion.
11 .
Deny the a l leg a t io n s of Paragraph 11 of the M otion.
1 2.
Deny a ll a l leg a t io n s of, and fac ts a lleged in , the Motion except
th o se here in e x p re ss ly admitted and se t forth.
20a
Answer of Defendants to Motion for Further Relief
- 6 -
21a
Answer of Defendants to Motion for Further Relief
1 3 .
D efendants deny th a t the P lain tiffs are en ti t led to the re l ie f prayed
for but by way of further an sw er aff inna tive ly s ta te :
1. D efendants have proceeded in good fa i th to comply with the ir
co n s t i tu t io n a l ob liga tions and du t ie s as en u nc ia ted by the C o u r ts , including
par t icu la r ly the l a t e s t d ec is io n of the Court of Appeals for the Eighth C ircu i t
in th is c a s e (Clark) as to pupil and facu lty d e se g re g a t io n .
2. Shortly a f te r the United S ta tes Supreme C ourt d ec is io n s in the
G reen, Raney and Monroe c a s e s (handed down May 27, 1968) the Board of Directors
of the D is t r ic t appoin ted a Committee to promptly m eet and determine what
fe a s ib le changes in and a l te rn a t iv e s to the d e seg reg a t io n procedures of
the D is tr ic t were a v a i la b le . The Committee has rnet sev e ra l times and has
invited and rece ived su g g e s t io n s In public and private m ee t in g s . However,
before it could conclude its work th is Motion was f i led . The Committee has
subm itted an interim report to the Board of D irectors and the Board of D irectors
has approved th a t report th is 17ih day of July, 1968. C op ies of the Resolution
of the Board of Directors appointing the C om m ittee , of the ac t ion of the
Committee in requesting su g g es t io n s a t public and private m eetings and of the
interim report approved by the Board, a s a fo re sa id , will be filed a s exhib its
to th is Answer a s soon as th e ir prepara tion for filing can be com ple ted . As
s ta te d in its interim report th e Committee will con tinue - i ts work and the Board
of D irectors will d ischa rge its affirmative du t ie s a s to d eseg rega tion as
promptly as p o s s ib le .
3 . The Defendants are committed and hereby reaffirm tha t commitment,
to proceed affirm atively and in good fa ith to bring the ir deseg reg a t io n procedures
into com pliance with all co n s t i tu t io n a l requirem ents and sp e c i f ic a l ly deny any
a l leg a t io n s or im plications of bad fa ith or improper ac t io n or inac tion .
- 7 -
22a
Answer of Defendants to Motion for Further Relief
WJ IKREEORK, D efendants pray tha t the Motion for Further Relief
be denied ; that the Defendants be permitted to f in a l ize a s promptly a s p o ss ib le
ac t ion on changes and a l te rn a t iv e s In the ir de seg reg a t io n procedures in order
to bring them into com pliance with all co n s t i tu t io n a l requirem ents; tha t the
a c t io n taken by the D efen d an ts in th is regard bo approved by the Court;
and tha t the Defendants have all o ther re l ie f to which they may be e n t i t le d .
SMITH, WILLIAMS, FRIDAY & ROWLN
11th Floor Boyle Building
Little Rock, Arkansas
ATTORNEYS FOR DEFENDANTS
R
8
23a
Answer of Defendants to Motion for Further Relief
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
I, H ersche l H . Friday, one of the a tto rneys for the de fen d an ts ,
ce rtify tha t I have served a copy of the foregoing Answer upcn the p la in tiffs
by p lacing the same in the United S ta tes Mail ad d re ssed to p la in t if fs ' a tto rneys
of record at the ir r e sp ec t iv e a d d re s s e s .
This 17th day of July, 1968.
MOTION TO INTERVENE AS PARTIES-PLAINTIFF
24a
F \ w
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION k
JUN 2 8 1363
W. H. IvitCuELLAN, CL
DELORES CLARK, et al.,
VS.
Plaintiffs,
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE LITTLE
ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, et al.,
Defendants.
YOLANDA G. TOWNSEND, a minor, by her :
father and next friend, DR. W. H. :
TOWNSEND; PAL JAMES NOBLE, ROWENA NOBLE,;
CHARLOTTA NOBLE, and SADIE ALLISON, by :
their mother and next friend, MRS. MARY :
L. ALLISON; ALVIN BOOTH, JR., LUCRETIA :
BOOTH, and CONNIE SUE BOOTH, minors, by :
their mother and next friend, MRS. :
LUCILLE BOOTH; ERMA JEAN JACKSON, a :
minor, by her mother and next friend, :
MRS. ERSALENE BROYLES; LARRY DEAN :
CLARK, CARL D. CLARK and CAROLYN D. :
CLARK, by their mother and next friend, :
MRS. LILLIE MAE CULLINS; TERESSA A. TAYLOR,
a minor, by her parents and next friends,:
MR. and MRS. ALLEN CUNNINGHAM; HAROLD :
JAMES EVANS, a minor, by his mother and :
next friend, MRS. BLANCHE E. EVANS; :
MARY ALICE FORD, KENNETH RAY FORD, and :
PERRY ROE FORD, minors, by their mother ;
and next friend, MRS. BEATRICE FORD; :
CHARLES PEARSON, BERNARD JOHNSON, and :
TYREE E. PEARSON, minors, by their :
mother and next friend, MRS. ASTHEO MAE :
GEORGE; GREGORY GIPSON, ROSALYN GIPSON, :
WILLIAM GIPSON, REX GIPSON, minors, by i
their parents and next friends, MR. and MRS.
WILLIE GIPSON, JR.; CHERLYN HAMPTON, :
ANDREW HAMPTON, and PHYLLIS HAMPTON, :
minors, by their mother and next friend, :
MRS. B. J. HAMPTON; VERA MAE JOHNSON, :
JERRY S. JOHNSON, and DONALD JOHNSON, :
minors, by their mother and next friend, ;
MRS. RUFUS JOHNSON; CARL LOTTING, HAROLD :
LOTTING, JOY RENEE JONES, and RONALD :
JONES, by their mother and next friend, :
MRS. QUEEN JONES; MAEZELL LAVY, GLORIA :
LAVY, and GROVER LAVY, by their parents :
and next friends, MR. and MRS. J. J. :
LAVY; MARY NELL LLOYD, RONNIE LLOYD, :
HOWARD LLOYD, and MILTON LLOYD, by their :
mother and next friend, MRS. ETHEL LLOYD;:
FREDERICK H. MARKS, PERRY LEE MARKS, and :
STEVEN MARKS, by their mother and next :
friend, MRS. SARAH J. MARKS; EMMA GEAN :
CIVIL ACTION
NO. LR-64-C-155
Motion to Intervene as Parties-Plaintiff
25a
PAIGE, SAM ELLA PAIGE, and JOLLIER PAIGE, :
by their parent* and next friend*, MR. and t
MRS. ROBERT PAIGE; ELIZABETH PURIFOY, CAROL
PURIFOY, SANDRA PURIFQY, minor* by their ;
parent and next friends, E. PURIFOY? s
DOROTHY BACCU; EDWYNA CARTER, CALVIN :
REYNOLDS, and CURTIS REYNOLDS, minors, by :
their mother and next ffiend, FLORICE :
REYNOLDS; LEORA E. SMITH, FREDERICK T. :
SMITH, JR., and OTIS S. SMITH, by their :
father and next friend, REV. FREDERICK T, :
SMITH? JAMES EARL THOMAS, a minor, by his :
parents and next friends, MR. and MRS. :
SAMUEL THOMAS? NORMA TRIMBLE, a minor, by :
her mother and next friend, MRS. RUTH s
TRIMBLE; LAWRENCE GOODMAN, GLENNA GOODMAN, :
and RICHARD GOODMAN, minors, by their :
parent, and next friend, MRS. CELESTIAL :
WEST; REGINIA F. WILLIAMS, a minor, by her :
mother and next friend, MRS. ZELPHIA s
WILLIAMS; BURNETTA YORK and MARSHALL YORK, :
JR., minors, by their mother and next :
friend, MRS. KATIE YORK; :
Applicants for
Intervention.
MOTION FOR LEAVE TO INTERVENE AS PARTIES
PLAINTIFF
Come the above-named applicants for intervention and
respectfully move the Court for an Order permitting them to
intervene as parties plaintiff in this action and permitting them
to file the Complaint attached hereto, and for cause state:
1. Applicants for intervention are members of the
class on whose behalf this cause of action is instituted; all
minor applicants attend schools within defendant school district?
some minor applicants attend schools within the district attended
predominantly by white students? other minor applicants attend
schools attended exclusively by Negro students.
2. Applicants for intervention should be permitted to
intervene as parties plaintiff in this action upon the following
grounds:
(a) Applicants have a substantial interest in the
subject matter of this action.
-2-
Motion to Intervene as Parties-Plaintiff
(b) Applicants will b® bound by any judgment,
decree, or order entered or to be entered
in this action.
(c) Applicants' Complaint, the original complaint
in this cause and the issues currently exist
ing before the Court have questions of law and
fact in common.
(d) Applicants are members of the class on whose
behalf the original action is brought; their
intervention will not to any extent delay or
prejudice the further adjudication of the
rights of the original parties.
26a
WHEREFORE, applicants for intervention respectfully
move the Court for an Order permitting them to intervene as
parties plaintiff in this action, and allowing them to file the
attached Complaint; and further respectfully move that they be
accorded the right to present oral testimony and oral argument
before the Court prior to the disposition of the issues before
this Court, and for any and all other proper relief.
j o i n r ^ r m r K E i r ' -------------— ----------
NORMAN J. CHACHKIN
1304-B Wright Avenue
Little Rock, Arkansas
HAROLD B. ANDERSON
Century Building
Little Rock, Arkansas
JACK GREENBERG
JAMES M. NABRIT, III
MICHAEL MELTSNER
FRANKLIN WHITE
Suite 2030
10 Columbus Circle
New York, New York 10019
Attorneys for Applicants for
Intervention
- 3-
COMPLAINT OP PLAINTIFFS-INTERVENORS
27a
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
TOR THE EASTERN DXSTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
DELORES CLARK, at al., s
:
Plaintiffs, :
VS. i
i
TOE BOARD 07 EDUCATION 07 THE LITTLE j
ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, at al., *
:
Dafandanta. ;
YOLANDA G. TOWNSEND, a minor, by her
fathar and next friand, DR. W. H.
TOWNSEND; PAL JAMES NOBLE, ROWENA NOBLE,
CiiARLOTTA NOBLE, and SADIE ALLISON, by i
tbair mother and naxt friand, MRS. MARY :
L. ALLISON, ALVIN BOOTH, JR., LUCRKTIA :
BOOTH, and CONNIE SUE BOOTH, minora, by i
thoir mother and naxt friand, MRS.
LUCILLE BOOTH; ERMA J&AN JACKSON, a minor, J
by her wether and naxt friand, MRS.ERSALEMS:
BROYLES; LARRY DEAN CLARK, CARL D. CLARK s
and CAROLYN D . CLARK, by thair mother and ,s
naxt friand, MRS. LILLIE MAE CULLINS; :
TERKSSA A. TAYLOR, a minor, by her parents :
and naxt friends, HR. and HR3. ALLEN ;
CUNNINGHAM: HAROLD JAMES EVANS, a minor, ;
by hi* mother and naxt friand, MRS. BLANCHE:
E. EVANS; MARY ALICE FORD, KENNETH RAY ;
FORD, and PERRY ROE FORD, minora, by their :
mother and naxt friand, MRS. BEATRICE FORD;:
CHARLES PEARSON, m lRNARD JOHNSON, and :
TYREE E. PEARSON, minora, by thair aothar .
and naxt friend, MRS. ARThEO MAE GEOROE; :
GREGORY GIPSON, ROSALYN GIPSON, WILLIAM i
GIPSON, and REX GIPSON, minor*, by thair :
parants and naxt friends, MR. and MRS, :
KIDRKW SUUMR99 JR.; CHKRLYN HAMPTON, :
ANDREW HAMPTON, and PHYLLIS HAMPTON, s
minors, by thair mother and next friand, :
HRS. B. J. HAMPTON; VERA MAS JOHNSON, :
JERRY S. JOHNSON, and DONALD JOHNSON, :
minora, by thair mother and naxt friand, ;
MRS. RUFUS JOHNSON; CARL LOTTING, HAROLD ;
LOTTING, JOY RENEE JONES, and RONALD :
JONES, by thair mother and next friand,
MRS. QUEEN JONES; MAESKLL LAVY, GLORIA i
LAVY, and GROVER LAVY, by their parents
and naxt friends, MR. AND MRS. J. J. ;
LAVY; MARY NELL LLOYD, RONNIE LLOYD, s
HOWARD LLOYD, and MILTON LLOYD, minora, by :
thair mother and naxt friend, MRS. ETHEL j
LLOYD; FREDERICK H. MARKS, PERRY LEE MARKS,:
and STEVEN MARKS, by thair mother and naxt :
friand, MRS. SARAH J. MARKS; EMMA GEAR
CIVIL ACTION
NO. L;;-64-C-155
■Civil ACTION'
• ; %%
28a
Complaint of Plaintiffs-Intervenor
FAXGB, turn ELLA FAI6B, and JOLLIER FAXGB
toy their parenta «&d next friemds, NR. end
to u t , r o s s e y m i ® * i El i z a b e t h f u r x f o y , carol
FURIFOY, 8AWBRA FURXFOY,, minors, by their
parent end next friend, B. PCR1F0T/
DOROTHY BAGCUt EDWYIIA CARTER, CALVTH REYNOLDS, and CURTIS REYNOLDS, minor*, by
their mother and mext friend, FLORICB » m D $ ; LEORA £. SMITH, FREDERICK T.
SMITH, JR., and OTIS S. SMITH, by thalr father and next friaad, REV. FREDERIC* T.
SMITE) JAMBS EARL THOMAS, a minor, by his
parents and next friends, MR. and MRS. SAMUEL THOMAS I NORMA TRIMBLE, a minor, by
har mother and next friend, MRS. RUTH
TRIMBLE) LAWRENCE GOODMAN, GLSMKA GOODMAN,
and RICHARD GOODMAN, minora, by thair parent; and next friend, MRS. CELESTIAL WEST; S8GXSA F, WILLIAMS, a minor, by har
mother and saxt friend, MRS. SELFHXA WILLIAMS; SURNSTTA YORK and MARSHALL YORK,
JR., minors, by thair mothar and next
friend, MRS. KATIE YORK;
Applicants for
Intervention.
C O M P L A I N T
---- -------- 5F ------- -------
PLAIHTirFS-IMTERVEMOR3
X
Plaintiffs-Iaterrenors adopt and re-allege all of the
allegations of the original Complaint herein, and of subsequent
pleadings filed on behalf of the original plaintiffs, including
the Motion for Further Relief filed in this cause on June 25,
1*68, with the same force and effect as though they were fully
set out herein.
COUNT OWE
II
Plaintiffs-Intervener* further allege that they are
skes&ers of the class on whose behalf this action waa originally
instituted; that the minor plaintiffs-interveners attend and are
eligible to attend schools in defendant school district) that they
bring this action on thair own behalf and on behalf of all others
similarly situated pursuant to Rule 23(a) and (b)(2) of the
2-
29a
Complaint of Plaintiffs—Intervenor
rederal mirnm ©f Civil V»©oedare. Members of the eltutm on behalf
of who** pioiatiff-iatwcvouM-tit sue are *® numerous that joinder of
all members i* impracticable. However, there are omsmn questions
of law and fast affooting tho right of Megr© students attending
school within tho defondant school district to an equal educational,
opportunity within a desegregated school district. Tho dales of
plaintiffs-intorvonors are typical of the claims of tho class and
plaintiff-intervenors fairly and adequately protoot tho iatoroata
of tho class. Defendant* have acted and/or refused to act @a
grounds generally applicable to tho class plaintiff-intervenors
represent, thereby asking appropriate final injunctive relief in
favor of plaintiff-interveners and the olass.
COUNT THO
III
During toe Spring, 1968 choice period, minor plaintiff-
intervenor Yolanda G. Townsend expressed her preference to attend
Uall High School, whose pupil population is presently over 99%
white, during toe 1968-69 school year.
IV
On information and belief, the aforesaid “free choice"
of minor plaintiff-intervenor Yolanda G. Townsend was rejected by
defendants and she was assigned to Cantral High School, whose
pupil population is presently over 30% Negro, for the 1968-69
school year, due to the feet that Hall High School had been
declared "overcrowded" by the defendants, and a residential attend
ance aoae (within which Hiss Townsend did not reside} bad been
drawn for Uall High School.
V
On information and belief, said attendance sone will
result in toe pupil population of Hall High school during the
1961-69 school year remaining warm than 99% white.
VI
On information and belief, Hall High School was delib
erately constructed in an area and its siae was limited so that
it would normally meet the defendants* standards for a declaration
- 3 -
of osNurorewdiag tnd that M t a t a i t * w d i tee justified is set
ting w &» attendance mn®. fear Soli sigh School thmt would gnssttlt
ia the Mxiaraa MMHnt of pupil aegsegatioa fsosssitol®.,
VII
On infoiMtioD u d belief, ilao* 1954 defendant® sad
thoir predecessors in off loo have engaged ia <t a e a s t m t i ® pro-
gross and school sit* selection pregrssw design®® to foster the
greatest affloaat of racial segregation ia the seteola which is pos
sible.
VIII
Hinor plaintiff-intorranor Yolanda fl. Townsand repre
sents the class ©£ Hegro pupila eligible to attend schools operate 1
by defendants whose "free ohoicaa* have beam os will be abrogated
through the use of attendance sones, declarations of overcrowding,
etc., in furtherance of defendant** progress (see Par. V II supra),
designed to prevent Negro pupils from attending prsstaaiaantly
whit* schools.
IX
illnor plaintiff-intervener and the class of pupils she
represents are entitled to immediately be admitted to the schools
of their choice 'unrestricted by defendants' progress*, easterns,
policies and practices as aforesaid. See Brown v. Board of £duo.,
263 F. Supp. 734 (L.P. Ark. 1966) .
WHBRJBFOat, plaintiffs-interveners respectfully pray;
(1) that pending the granting of any other relief
sought, tills Court enter an Order requiring defends®fee fe© admit
all Negro students to the schools of their first ehoio®, without
any limitation caused by attendance rones, overcrowding declara
tions , etc.j
(2) that this Court grant the relief sought in the
notion for Further Relief filed herein (»®m pp. 8-9 of said
Motion)t
30a
Complaint of Plaintiffs-intervenor
-4 -
31a
Complaint of Plaintiffs-Intervenor
(3) that this c®«rt allow t e w ihair eosts here!a,
KtaMHMbl* attorneys ' feea, and auote other, additional or sii.erua-
tive relief a« to tea Court «wsy appear equitable and just.
Respectfully submitted,
JOHN W. KAL&m
m t w m ,7. CHACHK1U
1304 -3 Wright Axemans
kittle Hock, Arkansan
HAROLD S. ANDERSON
Century Building
Little Rock, Arkansas
JACK GREENBERG
JAMES M. NABRIT, III
MICHAEL NELTSNER
FRANKLIN WHITE
Suite 2030
10 Columbus Circle
New York, hew York 13019
Attorneys for Applicant* for
Intervention
- 5-
i f
SOS5DON S. YOUIM©
DISTRICT JUDGE
LETTER OP DISTRICT COURT DATED JULY 18,
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
32a
EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
LITTLE HOCK, ARK.
1968
Jtaly IS, 1968
itf. Beradhei H, Friday
Sm ith, Willis*®, Friday ft Bowen
1100 Boyle Building
Little Sock, Arkansas 72201
Res Clark,, mt al v. The lessi of Education
of the Little Rock 8eh©©l District, et ai
1®. LSt-M-C-lSS
S@« Mr. Friday*
1 consider fcfc® answer of the defendants t© felt® actio®
for further relief as essentially wranliifleas and an
w*si® of the Beard's responsibilities under the law.
A hearing on the motion for further rsiiaf is set for
Thursday, August 13, at 9t30 &,».
Because of the sshert time between now and the new
school year, 1 suggest that the Board and its staff
immediately begin the formulation of a plan for the
division ©f the aefaooi systM into eeapaisory attendance
areas and the rs-sssigasst ©£ the faculty t® each
school in accordance with the refei© betwsen the race®
in the eyetew.
"This letter shall to® sad® a part of the record.
Sincerely yours.
m m m i , t o w s
ces Mr. M u W. Walker
ORDER PERMITTING INTERVENTION
33a
m t m uwrrm m m o x st ric p m u m
i m t o i o x s m i c r o r A m m m m
i o t s m a i o m c i «
d f l o w s c w j r k , *t el n A u n m
He. U - M 4 - 1 U
t h ’- Bo*m or e w c a t i o k or
V‘!c' LITTLE BOCK SCHOOL DXSTKXCT. et ®l DKfBfDAXTS
v 'Tj .wda a. TOWNSWK). * M in e r ,, by
r>*i father «sr»<l next friend,
OS. . H. TOWMSHCD• e t e l XHTSRViiiOSS
The m o t i o n f a r l e a v e t e i n t e r v e n e «* p a r t i e e p l a i n t i f f
u f . ’ l.y Y o l a n d « o . T<.*<meewd, e t e l , i « grmntted,
Dvtedi July 18, 19*8.
United State* District Jwdf*
ANSWER TO COMPLAINT OP PLAINTIFFS-INTERVENORS
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
DELORES CLARK, ET AL PLAINTIFFS
v . NO, LR -64-C-1S5
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE DEFENDANTS
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, ET AL
YOLANDA G . TOWNSEND, a m inor, by her PLAINTIFFS-INTERVENORS
fa ther and next fr ie n d , DR. W . H . TOWNSEND;
ET AL
A N S WE R
COME THE DEFENDANTS, and for th e ir Answer to the C om plaint
of P la in tif fs -In te rv e n o rs , s ta te :
I
Inasm uch as there has been an ad ju d ica tio n of the is s u e s framed
by the o rig inal p lead ings (approving in a ll e s s e n tia l p a rticu la rs the studen t
d eseg reg a tio n procedures being follow ed by the D efen d an ts), D efendants
are proceeding on the b a s is th a t the adoption by the P la in tiffs-In te rv en o rs
of a ll of the a lle g a tio n s of the orig inal C om plaint and su b seq u en t p lead ings
filed on b eh a lf of the o rig inal P la in tiffs is inappropriate and , th ere fo re ,
D efendants take no ac tio n w ith regard th e re to . W ith re fe rence to the Motion
for Further R elief, adopted by the P la in tiffs -In te rv e n o rs , D efendants adopt
and hereby re a s se r t th e ir Answer to tha t M otion filed here in on July 17, 1968
to the sam e ex ten t a s though fu lly se t forth at th is po in t.
II
34a
Admit th a t the P la in tiffs-In te rv en o rs a tten d and are e lig ib le to
a tten d th e sch o o ls in th e L ittle Rock School D is tr ic t and s ta te th a t P la in tiffs -
In te rv en ers purport to proceed a s a c la s s a c t io n . H ow ever, the c la s s involved
is not s p e c if ic a lly defined and for the record D efendants deny th a t the P la in tiff-
In tervenors rep re sen t a c la s s c o n s is tin g of a ll s tu d en ts in the D is tr ic t or
a c la s s c o n s is tin g of a ll Negro s tu d en ts in the D is tr ic t , and deny th a t the
a lle g a tio n s or c la im s a s s e r te d by them are ty p ica l of a lle g a tio n s or c la im s th a t
would be made by any p a rticu la r group , c la s s or segm ent of s tu d en ts and
deny th a t the P la in tiffs -In te rv en o rs fa ir ly and ad eq u a te ly rep re sen t the in te re s t
of any p a rticu la r g roup , c la s s or segm ent of s tu d e n ts . Furtherm ore, D efendants
deny th a t th ey have ac ted or re fused to a c t in any pa rticu la r in a m anner th a t
m akes appropriate fin a l in ju n c tiv e re lie f in favor of P la in tiffs -In te rvenors
or in favor of any g roup , c la s s or segm ent of s tu d e n ts .
HI
Admit the a lle g a tio n s of Paragraph 3 of the C om p la in t.
IV
Admit the a lle g a tio n s of Paragraph 4 o f the C om plaint ex cep t s ta te
th a t as of th is tim e , it appears th a t the pupil population a t C en tra l High School
for the 1968 - 69 schoo l year w ill be approxim ately 26% N egro. Further an sw er
in g , D efendants s ta te th a t M iss Townsend w as a ss ig n e d to C en tra l High School
on the b a s is of th a t being her second c h o ic e . In add ition to M iss Townsend
being denied her preference to a ttend H all High S choo l, there w ere
o ther s tu d en ts who w ere den ied th e ir p reference to a ttend H all High School,
of w hich 7 w ere Negro and 141 w ere W h ite .
V
Admit the a lle g a tio n s of Paragraph 5 of the C om plaint w ith the
q u a lific a tio n th a t the figures for 1968 - 69 are not en tire ly fina l a t th is tim e .
H ow ever, it is expected th a t any v a ria tio n w ill be s lig h t.
VI
Deny the a lleg a tio n s of Paragraph 6 of the C om p la in t.
35a
Answer to Complaint of Plaintiffs-Intervenor
_ 2 -
i
A nsw er t o C o m p la in t o f P l a i n t i f f s - I n t e r v e n o r
VII
Deny the a lle g a tio n s of Paragraph 7 of the C om plain t.
VHI
Deny the a lle g a tio n s of Paragraph 8 of the C om plain t.
IX
D eny the a lle g a tio n s of Paragraph 9 of the C om plain t.
WHEREFORE, having fu lly an sw ered , D efendants pray th a t a ll
36a
cla im s of the P la in tiffs -In te rv en o rs in th e ir C om plaint be den ied and the
C om plaint be d ism issed w ith pre jud ice ; and th a t the D efendants have a ll
o ther re lie f to w hich th ey may be e n tit le d .
SMITH, WILLIAMS, FRIDAY & BOWEN
11th Floor Boyle Building
L ittle Rock, A rkansas
ATTORNEYS FOR DEFENDANTS
- 3 -
i
37a
Answer to Complaint of Plaintiffs-Intervenor
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
I , H ersche l H . F riday , one of the a tto rn ey s for the D efen d an ts ,
j . c e rtify th a t I have served a copy of the foregoing Answer upon the P la in tiffs -
In te rv en ers by p lacing the sam e in the U nited S ta tes M ail a d d re ssed to
P la in tiffs -In te rv e n e rs ' a tto rn ey s of record a t th e ir re sp e c tiv e a d d r e s s e s .
This 24th day of Ju ly , 1968.
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1TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS AUGUST 15-16, 1963
IN THE UNIT!,I) STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
JSSBS'
DELORES CLARK, et al,
Plaintiffs,
v . No. LR-64-C-155
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE :
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, et al, :
Defendants. :
" - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
- - T R I A L - -
BE IT REMEMBERED, That the above-entitled matter came
on for trial before The Honorable GORDON E. YOUNG, United
States District Judge, commencing at 9:30 o'clock, p.n., on
Thursday, August 15, 1968.
APPEARANCES:
JOHN W. WALKER, Esq., 1820 West 13th Street, Little
Rock, Arkansas, appearing for the plaintiffs.
HERS CHE L H. FRIDAY, Esq., and Joe Bell., Esq., of
Smith, Williams, Friday 5 Bowen, Boyle Building,
Little Rock, Arkansas, appearing for the
defendants.
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C O N T E N T S
THE WITNESS DIRECT CROSS
Floyd W. Parsons 19 97
AFTERNOON SESSION - 82
Edwin M. Barron, Jr. 177 180
Defendants' Exhibits:
No. 1
No. 2
No. 3
No. 4
No. 5
No. 6
Nos. 7 & 8
No. 9
No. 10
No. 11
No. 12
No. 13
No. 14
No. 15
No. 16
No. 17
EXHIBITS
For Identification In Evident
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P R O C E E D I N G S
THE COURT: We have for hearing today some matters
in connection with the case of Delores Clark, et al, versus ti
Board of Education of the Little Rock School District, et al.
By letter I suggested to counsel for the defendants
that they take the initiative, whicK is in accordance with thj
burden of proof which rests upon them to present their case
this morning.
First, we have pending, though, a petition to
intervene by the Little Rock Classroom Teachers Association,
Mr. Warren.
MR. WARREN: May it please the Court, I was informe
by Mr. Walker a moment ago that he had not received a copy of
my petition to intervene although it was mailed to him at the
same time it was mailed to the Court here.
We do ask permission to intervene ,or the reason
stated in the petition -- that is, that the Mttle Rock
Classroom Teachers Association is a non-profit corporation
composed of class room teachers of the City of Little Rock
who teach in the Little Rock public schools, whose membership
exceeds 800 teachers. It is composed of the majority of the
white and Negro teachers teaching in the public schools of
Little Rock.
We ask that we be permitted to intervene simply
to state to the Court and state to the record, or give to the
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record, a statement in the intervention stating the request of
the Little Rock Classroom Teachers Association that the Court
enter no order which would abrogate or imperil or impair a
present existing statement in the Little Rock School Board's
Handbook of Administrative Policies, which contains a state
ment that teachers will be reassigned only at the time of the
issuance of the new contract.
I might state to the Court that there has been, anc
has been for some time, negotiations between two committees of
the Classroom Teachers Association and the Little Rock School
Board, way before Mr. Walker filed his motion in this case,
negotiations to amend that provision and to provide that
teachers shall not be reassigned or transferred except with
ninety days prior notice. This is something the Classroom
Teachers have worked for a long time. We worked a long time
ten or fifteen years, to get the provision on transfers or
reassignment that is presently existing.
We do hope tha Court, in formulating such order as
he decides to enter in this case, will bear in mind that the
provisions of this handbook are a part of the teachers'
contracts, and so recognized.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WARREN: Do I have your permission to file in
written form that statement I just made?
THE COURT: Yes.
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MR. WARREN: Thank you.
THE COURT: Are there any comments, gentlemen?
MR. WALKER: Yes, Your Honor.
On behalf of the plaintiffs, I would respectfully
request that the Court defer action on the motion to intervens
until such time as plaintiffs have had an opportunity to stud^
the motion that was filed. Although Mr. Warren may have
mailed a copy to me, it just so happens that my address isn't
in the downtown area and my mail does not come until after
9:30, so I have not received it today. No harm will be given
to the intervenor's position by deferring action on this,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, I have let a number of other
people intervene in the case. I'm sure the Classroom
Teachers have an interest in the controversy. What the merits
of the intervention are, we are not concerned with, but I
will- let them intervene and here is an order to that effect.
MR. WARREN: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: One further thing.
Mr. Walker, in chambers yesterday, I indicated that
it would be all right to incorporate proceedings of previous
Little Rock cases by reference. I have considered that
suggestion overnight, and I have changed my mind about it.
I anticipate that this case will go to the Court
of Appeals. If we were to incorporate by blanket reference
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proceedings in a number of other cases going back over ten
years, no one would know what the record was. I wouldn’t
know it; the Clerk wouldn't know what to send to the Court of
Appeals; and I certainly owe a duty to the Court of Appeals to
prevent them getting into that morass.
Of course, everything in the case of Clark is a
part of this record, and in the Court of Appeals' opinion
dated December 15, 1966, Judge Gibson, who was the author of
the opinion, has a history of the Little Rock cases going
back to Aaron versus Cooper in 1956. Now, that much of the
history of previous cases is, of course, in this record
because it is in the Court's opinion in this case.
If there is any thing, however, in any of the other
cases that you wish to introduce, we had better take that up
specifically and on its merits, but otherwise no one would
know where the record started and where it stopped.
Of course, also, a great many of the things that
occurred in these other cases are ancient history now, and hav?
no bearing.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we would respectfully
request the opportunity to proffer at the appropriate time
such other proof or recorded transcripts as we may deem at
that time to be necessary to our case.
THE COURT: That will be all right, but I'll tell
you now I take a dim view about transcripts.
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MR. WALKER: All right. We do, however, so we won'
waive our position, take the position that Clark is but a
continuation of Aaron; and the fact that Aaron was dismissed
by the Court and replaced by Caark is insignificant.
THE COURT: I agree with that.
MR. WALKER: We also take the position that other
actions which have been filed, even though they may be ancien':
history, have pertinence on the present predicament that the
Little Rock School District finds itself in. I particularly
call attention to this Court's opinion in the Byrd v. Board
of Education case decided in 1965. I also call attention to
the Supreme Court of Arkansas decision. I think the styling
of the case -- and I'll provide it for the Court at the
appropriate time -- is Shelton v. Tucker.
THE COURT: We don't introduce into evidence
published opinions of other Courts. That is not a part of the
record. Of course, you can refer to it any way you like.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we just want to be able
to put the transcripts in.
THE COURT: You won't put any other transcripts of
any other cases in.
MR. WALKER: We would have the opportunity to
proffer them?
THE COURT: You sure will.
Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Friday?
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MR. FRIDAY: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. FRIDAY: With the permission of the Court, I’d
like to make an opening statement in a little detail to try tc
put the issues in perspective as we see them.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. FRIDAY: The evidence will show and we feel will
demonstrate -- and I think this bears on what may well be an
issue as I have understood Mr. Walker's statement -- specifical
the good faith of the Board, that this lawsuit is unnecessary
and unwarranted, and if it has served any purpose, it is to
hamper the progress of the district; that the district, the
evidence will show, has proceeded properly. We will put into
the record for the Court, as we have the affirmative duty to
do, what the district has done in specific detail since the
Clark decision, which is the last decision of the Court of
Appeals, or which is the last decision in this litigation.
We will point out the deficiencies observed by the
Court of Appeals and the corrective action taken by the
district since that time in an effort to demonstrate by the
evidence that the district has been and is now proceeding
properly in the sense of a constitutionally permissive approaci
under that opinion, realizing, of course, that there have been
decisions of the United States Supreme Court handed down on
May 27 of this year that affect this situation.
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We will show by the evidence -- in order to get this
in perspective -- specifically the details of notice provision?
and steps taken concerning notice, which was one area pointed
out by the Court of Appeals, and in detail the steps taken
concerning staff desegregation, which was the other area
pointed out by the Court of Appeals that required action by
the board.
We will state from the standpoint -- and I think
this will bear on the other principal issue as we see it, Your
Honor, that is, what these defendants should do for the
1968-69 school year --we will point out the sequence of events
to get in perspective the situation under which they operated
and under which they now find themselves. Specifically, we
will cover what this district has done since Clark in an efforn
to arrive at a much desired permanent solution to the
desegregation procedures to be employed by the defendants in
the Little Rock School District.
We will put in evidence -- because we think it will
bear on the principal issue, as we see it, before the Court --
the various affirmative steps taken; and I mention now, just
to show what the evidence will develop in this regard over and
above minimum court requirements, the employment of an
out-of-state, so-called Oregon expert team at substantial cost
to the district; analysis of this and what happened to it; the
action taken by the staff concerning desegregation which
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culminated in what is commonly known as The Parsons Plan, all
of this well in advance of even the cases being taken by the
Supreme Court of the United States and abviously well in
advance of the handing down of the decision on May 27 of 1968.
We will point out what developed from the standpoir
of efforts -- and the Court of Appeals has stated that this is
proper -- efforts at community participation and involvement
as distinguished from what is constitutionally objectionable
and that is inaction because of communtiy hostility.
We will point out what the community did with
reference to these affirmative steps that were taken by board
action. The last action in this regard was taken in March of
this year at a school election.
With that action having been taken under the then
applicable and Court-approved procedures of the district, it
was necessary to start immediately and in a very few days, anc
by the time of the first possible meeting of the School Board
after that election, to get out the choice forms, and the
evidence will develop when they went out. Specifically, they
had to go out on April 1.
The evidence will cover in detail what is involved
in assigning 25,000-plus students and assigning the staff to
handle properly the educational requirements of 25,000-plrs
students.
The evidence will develop a close tie-in between
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what you are doing with pupil assignments and what you must
do with staff assignments to meet these requirements.
The evidence will develop what is involved from the
standpoint of the many other details necessary to get this
either largest or, for all practical purposes, the largest
school district in the state underway in the short period
between April-May and September 1 by virtue of working up
curriculum and by virtue of working up all the other outside
activities that are necessary to get there.
With this background, as soon as the decisions of
the Supreme Court were handed down, the board, in recognition'
of its affirmative duties concerning the educational require
ments of this district consistent with constitutionally
permissive approaches as to pupil and staff desegregation,
appointed a committee.
We will place in evidence testimony concerning what
this committee has done, minutes of the committee's meeting
intended to demonstrate that the committee has functioned as
properly and fully and actively as possible under the circum
stances .
We will show to the Court in the evidence what I
think -- and we will let the evidence see how it shapes up on
this, Your Honor -- what I think will be the unanimous view,
at least of the board and staff in substantial principle at
least, as to the only possible, feasible alternative for
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September, 1968-69, specifically compulsory zoning. We have
maps prepared. We will present to the Court how the zones
were arrived at and will show the racial composition of the
student body in each zone.
We have formulated, detailed and we think education!
proper and necessary standards for going in staff desegregatio
to an immediate approximately 70-30 white-Negro ratio in each
school.
We will point out what effect this would have and
show how it is contrasted with the progress that has been mad:;
under what we submit, Your Honor, as the Clark-approved
approach, at least proper up until this time and certainly
proper when teacher assignments were made last May as they
had to have been made last May, of approaching this problem
with meaningful progress under the circumstances by attrition
or new teachers rather than arbitrary assignments.
Nevertheless, we have prepared and can submit to the
Court how we would go about, if it ends up we should do this
in September, 1968, with what I would call arbitrary or man
datory staff assignments as dintinguished from voluntary
action or filling vacancies as they show up.
Now, there are understandably some divergent views
among the people who have the responsibility for running the
schools. As this Court has pointed out, and as the evidence
will show, these defendants recognize and accept the fact
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that they have the duty of running the schools, that this
Court does not and should not have that duty or responsi
bility.
They have, in this context and for this hearing,
met and taken formal action and our proposal to the Court in
discharge, we respectfully state, Your Honor, of our affirma
tive duties concerning educational programs in a consti
tutionally permissive manner as follows, and I want to set
forth the resolution so the Court will see in advance how
we are going to direct our evidence and enable the Court at
least to see how the issues may be or should be confined.
The board takes the position -- the defendants
take the position, Your Honor, that for the purposes of sub
mission to this hearing, the staff has prepared and the
board has approved, if directed after this hearing by the
Court that this be placed into effect at this time, a com
pulsory zoning plan; and, if directed at this hearing, the
necessary steps will be taken to get this into effect for
1968-69.
Also, the staff has prepared and the board has
approved, if directed to be placed into effect for 1968-69,
the necessary and proper steps to accomplish staff desegre
gation on an approximate seventy-thirty ratio.
The board respectfully submits to the Court that
they, of all people, and the ataff wants a permanent solutioi:
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so as to get on with what ought to be their primary responsi
bility of educating all the children of this district. They
will point out to the Court the impact upon the district's
program taken, we think the evidence will show to this point
in complete good faith under the law, of changes such as
just committed to in, one and two, concerning pupil and stafi
desegregation. The evidence will detail what is involved in
this.
The defendants then take the position that they
respectfully state as they view, Your Honor, the requirements
of the Supreme Court in an effort to get the permanent solu
tion, they want to consider and continue to evaluate, not to
delay -- they'd like to have it now as much as anyone else --
but to properly discharge their educational and legal duties
all available alternatives. They will do this. Zoning wou]
be the only available one now, Your Honor.
It, in many ways, would be the easy answer for
them right now, but in an effort to be sure that we, if
possible, get the permanent solution, they want to again lool
at these things, including even those they have already at
one time committed to, but the electorate did not see fit to
support in the then factual context. And they will do all
of this and report back to the Court no later than December
1. We want to do it and get it done and get it over with,
so that by 1969 -- but we want to do it properly --we will
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have, hopefully, the permanent solution.
It may well involve electorate involvement and
support. As the Court knows, under the law of Arkansas, there
is a March, 1969, school election that comes up, in X'/hich the
electors are called upon to approve specifically budgets, but
necessarily embodied in that what goes in to making up a
budget, Your Honor.
If the Court then -- the evidence will show it is
improper to do one without the other aside from the impact
upon properly taken, we submit, assignments as they now exist
--if the Court sees merit in the presentation as to pupil
assignment, faculty reassignment should be taken consistent
because the two obviously tie in together, and the evidence
will dwell on this, Your Honor.
By way of summary, the district is prepared to go
ahead for 1958-59 if, in the Court's considered judgment --
and we are not putting this off on the Court -- but, if in the
Court's considered judgment, when you hear both sides, these
steps ought to be taken at this time; and we have in detail
hatwthese steps should be.
But we take the position and submit that it would
be improper at this time and premature in our effort to get
this much and long sought after permanent solution to take
those steps which are all that could be taken as this time
as are feasible. Anything else involves financial support;
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this does not.
If I might elaborate, I assume counsel would not
agree on the issues.
As we will present our case, Your Honor, if the
Court sees fit to do this, many of the issues that are attaekii
or may tend to attach a zoning plan or a neighborhood school
plan or a Parsons variation or Oregon variation, which might
be or might not be what the Court will come up with, we do
represent with the expectation of acceptance with complete
sincerity -- this will be done in December -- we would be
prematurely developing a big record on issues that really
are not there.
The trial may develop in another manner, Your Honor,
but what I am really saying, we are going to present our case
on the issue of what ought to be done right now in September,
1968- 69, and do not purport to try at this time what in our
judgment ought to be the permanent solution to take effect in
1969- 70. Obviously embodied in what we are asking the Court
to do is a demonstration of what the board has done, and we
think the evidence will support they have heretofore proceeded
in utmost good faith, and will continue to do so.
I apologize to the Court, but I think it served the
purpose to fully acquaint the Court with the way we will
present our case. With such statements as other counsel cares
to make, we are ready to proceed.
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THE COURT: Mr. Walker, it is not necessary for you
to make a statement now unless you wish to.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I would like to make a state
ment, tmt I would like to reserve that until our case is
presented.
I would make one or two observations, though.
We did undertake discovery prior to this proceeding
and we sought certain information from the school district,
and we were not provided that information.
Mr. Friday stated in his statement that he plans to
make use of some of that information, and I would certainly
hope the Court would prevent the board from introducing it.
Specifically, I call attention to the report from the so-calle:
committee that was appointed to study desegregation problems
of school districts subsequent to the May 27th decision of
the United States Supreme Court. We have sought that informa
tion and we have been denied access to that information.
In view of that fact, any information that would be
presented would be in the nature of surprise to us.
THE COURT: Mr. Friday.
MR. FRIDAY: If I may respond to that, of course, I
am diametrically opposed to Mr. Walker in this regard. We
have spent voluminous time taking depositions. In my judgment,
Your Honor, we have furnished him as late as yesterday after
noon everything, I thought. If I have not furnished him anythi
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I’m sorry, and we will get it to him this morning. We made
every effort to give him everything yesterday.
THE COURT: What is it that you have not been fur
nished with, Mr. Walker?
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we sought, so that we could
properly depose the members of the committee who considered
this desegergation approach, information about what their com
mittee was doing, and they took the position that they would
not give this information to us. This position was concurred
in by counsel, and it appears so in the deposition.
THE COURT: What do you mean? What information?
MR. WALKER: We don't know what the committee has
done. They have operated in secrecy.
THE COURT: Well, I don't know what they have done,
either. Are you talking about reports?
MR. WALKER: I understand that there are minutes of
those meetings that the board proposes to put into evidence.
THE COURT: Do you have minutes, Mr. Friday?
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Let him have a copy of them.
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, Your Honor.
I might state, Your Honor, he asked for the board
action. I wrote him and quoted exactly in the letter. Mr.
Drummond summarized it for you in his deposition, and I stand
by both of those.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 19
MR. WALKER: We did not get to go into the details.
We only got a bare statement of it.
THE COURT: Well, if he --
MR. FRIDAY: Certainly I will furnish it, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Very well.
Let me say this. We are going to have a rotation
of three reporters reporting this hearing, and every thirty
minutes or so, we will take a brief stop for them to change.
After we get started, I’m sure that will work out easily.
Are you ready, Mr. Friday?
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, Your Honor.
I call Mr. Floyd Parsons.
Thereupon,
FLOYD W. PARSONS
having been called as a witness by counsel for defendants, and
having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q State your name.
A Floyd Parsons.
Q Where do you live, Mr. Parsons.
A Little Rock, 31 Nob View Circle.
Q How long have you lived in Little Rock?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 20
A I have lived here slightly more than seven years.
Q What is your present occupation or employment?
A Superintendent of the Little Rock Public Schools.
Q How long have you held that position?
A Again, slightly more than seven years.
Q Give us just briefly your background and education,
Mr. Parsons.
Include the schooling in it, and then pick it up as
quickly as possible and bring it up to your present position.
A A graduate of both the Bachelor's and Master's degree
from the University of Texas with dual majors in the fields of
sociology and educational administration, having become a
superintendent of schools some three years after graduation
from the University of Texas and having been a superintendent
of schools in excess of thirty years without having missed a
year.
Q Mr. Parsons, I want to take you, for the purposes of
our presentation, in point of time to 1966. In order to exped:.
are you aware that the board at that time --
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, some of this will be a litt;
leading, but we will try --
THE COURT: That is all right. You may lead here.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q -- that the board of directors of the Little Rock
School District at that time adopted a resolution which approve
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the so-called freedom of choice under the Federal guidelines
approach to desegregation?
A Yes.
Q I hand you a document which purports to be excerpts
from the minutes of the board reflecting the adoption of that
resolution; and ask if you can identify that I have handed to
you?
A Yes, I can,
MR. FRIDAY: It is marked as Defendant's Exhibit 1,
and we offer it into evidence, Your Honor.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(Whereupon, the document heretofore
referred to was marked Defendant's
Exhibit No. 1 for identification,
and was received in evidence.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Are you familiar with the decision of the Court of
Appeals for the Eighth Circuit in Clerk versus Board of Edu
cation that was handed down in 1966?
A Yes.
Q Have you read this opinion?
A Yes.
Q Have you discussed it with me as the school board's
attorney?
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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A On many occasions, yes.
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1RECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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Q With particular reference to the board's operations
ince that time, I want to cover with you what is done from
he standpoint of notice given and published as to the desegre-
ation procedures of the district.
Quickly, just summarize what is given and then I am
oing to hand you some documents
THE COURT: Just a moment, Mr. Friday.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we will stipulate that the
oUce the district has engaged in pursuant to the freedom of
hoice plan has been in compliance with the Court of Appeals
nd this Court and the H. E. W. requirements.
THE COURT: I think his point -- the point he is
ttempting to make is that the Court of Appeals has specified
he board should change its practices regarding notices, and tha
hey have complied with the directions of the Court of Appeals
n that respect.
MR. FRIDAY: That is correct, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you so stipulate, Mr. Walker?
MR. WALKER: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Walker.
MR. FRIDAY: In view of the stipulation, I am not
oing to encumber the record with the exhibits 1 planned to put
n and the forms and newspaper publications.
Y MR. FRIDAY:
Q All right. The other major area that the Court dealt
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with in the Clark case was faculty and staff desegregation.
You are familiar with this, are you not, Mr. Parson::?
A I am.
Q All right. Will you presently, for the record,
identify the membership, the present membership of the board
of directors of the Little Rock School District by name and
race?
A Dr. Ed Barron is president of the board, white;
Mr. Bill Meeks, W. R. Meeks, is vice chairman of the board,
white; Mr. Winslow Drummond I hope I have these offices
correct
Q I'm sure you do.
A " is a member of the board, white; Mr. T. E.
Patterson is a member of the board, Negro; Mr. Charles Brown
is a member of the board, white. I have not counted -- I
didn't name Dan Woods, did I? He is a member of the board,
white.
Q All right. Now, let's deal at the administrative
level of the Little Rock School District. You have identified
yourself.
Will you identify the top supervisory people by
position, name, and race?
A I would assume that you're talking about the deputy
superintendent and the assistant superintendents?
Q Yes.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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A The deputy superintendent is Mr. Paul Fair, white.
The assistant superintendent in charge of instruction is Mr.
John Fortenberry, white. The assistant superintendent in
charge of personnel is Mr. Harry Fowler, Negro. The assistant
superintendent in charge of business affairs is Mr. Floyd
Langston, white. And the assistant superintendent in charge
of research and pupil personnel is Mr. Don Roberts, white.
Q All right. The one who has primary responsibility
for the personnel which includes assignments, staff assign
ments, at all of the schools is Mr. Fowler, is this correct?
A That's correct.
Q Could you elaborate on what his duties are?
A Mr. Fowler's duties are directly related to personnel.
Primarily, this is not to say that he does not have certain
other office and routine duties in terms of record-keeping
and keeping of files, et cetera, but his primary responsibility
revolves around the interviewing and recruiting and the actual
employment of and assignment of a coordination, of course,
with principals and other staff members of all personnel to be
employed by the Little Rock public school system.
Q As the top administrative officer, will you state
to the Court v/hat is your understanding of your responsibilities
concerning staff desegregation?
A It has been our understanding, as delineated by the
Clark case, that we have a responsibility to employ and to
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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assign without regard to race whatsoever. However, we are to
proceed to gain additional staff desegregation in our system
as much as we possibly can through the process of attrition
and on a voluntary basis.
We have proceeded in this manner encouraging both
white and Negro teachers employed in the system to agree to
teach in positions where their race is in a minority.
Q Would you state -- and I think you have not, speci
fically, on this point -- the direction that has been given
through proper channels to the assistant superintendent in
charge of personnel with reference, specifically, to the
desegregation of the staff procedures of the district? What
charge has been given?
A We have talked to Mr. Fowler on numerous occasions,
of course, about the affirmative responsibility of the school
board and the school administration in this regard. We have
given him total freedom to recruit and select and work in
the field of assigning teachers, requesting at all times that
he get as much staff desegregation as he possibly can achieve.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, at this point, I would like
for Mr. Parsons to identify the "we" he describes. I think
he is talking about himself, but I would like to know that
as the questions proceed.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WETNESS: I would identify myself in this regard,
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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specifically, but if other questions are asked concerning
the board of directors of our school system, I will be glad,
or would be glad, for individual members of the school board
to answer this for themselves.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Well, I'm going to ask you what action the board
has taken, and if the members of the board are here, they can
either state or be asked if they want to elaborate on it.
A The board of directors of our school district, as
presently constituted, has supported the concept of our
achieving as much faculty desegregation in our system as
possible. The previous board -- and I do not know that this
is necessary, Mr. Friday
Q The previous members?
A -- the previous board before this particular board
set a rather specific amount. In 1966, they said double it
for 1967. It's hard to keep doubling anything, as you well
know. We would soon run out of something to double.
But this particular board has supported the concept
of staff desegregation and has indicated their good faith in
the creation of a staff to -- to open Park View School by
suggesting to the administration that this staff should be a
fully desegregated staff, constituting some twenty-five to
thirty per cent Negro and seventy to seventy-five per cent
white, and this has been achieved as we open the school in
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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September,
Q You roughly have at Park View a seventy-thirty ratio
A Roughly, yes,
Q When was this achieved in point of time, since you
mention it?
A Mr. Firday, I actually could not pinpoint it in
terms of time, but I would say that it was probably achieved
about a month, six weeks, maybe two months ago. We have
been working on it a long, long time.
Q It was before this lawsuit, wasn’t it?
A Yes, it was.
Q I handed you two documents, and let me get to the
specifics of this.
I have marked one for identification as Defendant’s
Exhibit No. 2, and I ask you to identify in some little detail
what is depicted on that document.
A This document is
MR. FRIDAY: Wait a minute. I want to hand the
Court one.
THE WITNESS: All right.
MR. FRIDAY: I will hand this to the Court, Your
Honor. That one is not marked, but it is Defendant's Exhibit
No. 2. And this will be Exhibit 3.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Tell the Court what Defendant's Exhibit 2 reflects,
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Mr, Parsons.
A This exhibit reflects the history since 1965 when
this concept was first negotiated in the Little Rock School
District. This reflects the history of staff desegregation
in our school district.
Q Well, just for the record, be a little more specific.
Just thumb through it and tell what the summary shows and how
you broke it down as to the individual situation.
A This history, as I say, began in 1965-66, and pro
jects to the 1968-69 school year, both by numbers and per
centages for Negro and white pupis.
THE COURT: Just a minute, Mr. Parsons.
MR. WALKER: I want to be sure I am following Mr.
Parsons, Your Honor.
Which is the exhibit?
MR. FRIDAY: Exhibit 2.
MR. WALKER: All right. Have you introduced it?
MR. FRIDAY: Not yet. He is still identifying it.
THE WITNESS: And then item two has to do with
teachers; and since that is our discussion at the present time,
it shows that in 1965-66, there were five Negro teachers in
the system and seven white teachers in the system who were
working in positions where their race was in a minority,
moving to twenty-one-fourteen in 66-67; forty-five-thirty-threi
in 67-68; 68-69, sixty-three-forty-seven.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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And I think perhaps this is an appropriate time to
point out that these figures represent employed classroom
teachers, employed and paid for by the Little Rock School
District. We are not involving any additional personnel
that may be under Federal programs, Title I, the whole gamut
of other programs which would increase this number materially
were they included.
Then, the important --
THE COURT: Excuse me. In looking at it, I see
under 68-69, sixty-three and forty-seven, and then a further
figure over to the right of that of fifty-seven, forty-three.
What does that mean?
THE WITNESS: Those are percentages.
THE COURT: Oh, yes, I see. Isee.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q While I think of it, let me make a similar point.
You say these are permanent new minority situation
assignments?
A That's correct.
Q For example, what would be --
MR. WALKER: Just a minute. Let me be clear. You
said "permanent new minority assignments"?
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Don't use my words. Use your own words, and tell
the Court exactly what they are,
A I don't suppose the assignment of any teacher is ever
permanent.
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Q Full-time, would that be a better word?
A Full-time, yes, regular employees. Many of them
resign every year so we could not classify them as permanent.
Q It was my mis-choice of words. Full-time.
In addition to full-time -- and I know I am inter
rupting your sequence -- what else or what positions would
be involved in addition to this that would involve staff in a
desegregated situation?
A There are many instances. I certainly could not by
memory recall all of them, but we have music teachers and --
or at least a music teacher that I think of very quickly, a
white music teacher who is teaching part-time in a Negro
school.
We have remedial reading teachers, speech therapists
special teachers of various kinds that are involved in inte
grated situations; a white band instructor who teaches part-
time in some white schools and teaches part-time in a school
that is all-Negro, four or five Negro teachers assigned to
assist other teachers in terms of, shall I say, teacher aides
or para-profrssional, or a Negro teacher assisting a formerly
all-white staff at Florence Crittenden Home. There are many
cases like that.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we will stipulate under
the Federal programs and some other programs, the district
has a number of Negro teachers serving as part-time in some
DIRECT EXAMINATION - P a r s o n s
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DIRECT EXAMINATION ' Parsons
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positions in predominantly formerly all-white schools, and
insofar as white or Negro situations are concerned, that
situations pertains that these are mostly under Federal
programs, such as Public Lav/ 89.10 programs.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q But they are public school programs, are they not?
A Yes, they are, and not all of them are Federal
programs. Most of them are. He is correct.
Q Can you state with any degree of accuracy -- and
Mr. Fowler is in the courtroom and I will subsequently ask
him the same question -- the numbers involved in this, Mr.
Parsons? Are these substantial numbers?
A Let me give a rough approximation.
Q All right.
A Fifteen or twenty, and I may be wrong, so I hope
you will ask someone else.
Q Let me ask you one other thing. There have been
various reports that show some variation in these figures.
Now, the first question: is this, with reference
to the 68-69 school year, a set situation, or is there some
fluctuation still in it?
A There is always fluctuation. We find that by the
time we can get a set of figures established and get them to
the typists and then get them mimeographed, we have to go back
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very often and mark out and change some figures..
We are still in the process ■- we wish this were not
true, actually, in terms of resignations -- but we are still
in the process of accepting resignations in the Little Rock
School District, not many, but a few, and will probably con-
tinue to do so, that we will have to replace.
Q One other question along this line, and I am perhaps
anticipating, but I want also to get over to the Court what
is involved to make it clear even before we offer this exhibit
Look at Defendant's Exhibit 2 for 66-67, and you
will see that this reflects the total in an integrated situa
tion of thirty-five, if my arithmetic is correct.
A That's correct.
Q There have been figures that have gone as high as
fifty-two for that year. Would you explain to the Court how,
if you want to look at it in a different way, you could say
you have fifty-two, for example?
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, my only purpose is to shox*
it is very difficult to pinpoint when you are dealing with
something as large and complex as this district.
THE COURT: Of what item were you speaking?
MR. FRIDAY: The reflected desegregation situation
for 1966-67, showing twenty-one Negro and fourteen white, a
total of thirty-five teachers, Your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
32
THE WITNESS: This was the year -- if I remember
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DIRECT EXAMINATION Parsons
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correctly, and I think I do -- that one of our elementary
schools shifted from a predominantly white elementary school
to a predominantly Negro elementary school; so where we had a
predominantly white school with probably an all-white faculty
-- 1 actually do not remember; let's assume at least it was
an all-white faculty -- there was no faculty desegregation
in that particular school, or we will assume there was not.
Then in this particular year, this school became
predominantly Negro instead of predominantly white, so suddenly
we had a total faculty teaching in a minority situation where
the race of the faculty was in the minority as related to the
race of the students.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Well, in these figures you haven't take advantage
of any such playing around with numbers --
A No --
Q -- even though --
A --we have not.
Q -- if you look at the school and look at the faculty,
it's a very comparable situation.
A That's right.
Q All right.
A Then in addition to that, there were other problems
in the system that we have previously identified under Title
I and other positions that could very easily have brought it
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DIRECT EXAMINATION Parsons 34
fifty - or fifty-five, up to li 1 1
Q All right. Now go ahead and finish describing what
else this Defendant's Exhibit 2 purports to reflect.
A This exhibit also reflects the resignation rate of
both white and Negro teachers who are teaching where their
race is in a minority and we find thatthe Negro teacher who
is assigned to the predominantly white school tends to stick
in that position far, far better than the white teacher who
is assigned to an all-Negro school, as reflected in the
report.
Q If you know, why is that, Mr. Parsons?
A I am not sure that I know, but I will •- I think
that there are definite factors involved here that could be
identified.
One is that we have been making a conscientious
effort to get some faculty desegregation in this school system
accelerated more than we have; and we have found that about
the only way that we can place Negro teachers -- let me back
up -- white teachers into Negro schools is for some vacancies
to occur in those Negro schools.
And since Negro teachers have a way of not resigning
in the numbers or at the high percentage that white teachers
resign, what I'm saying is that Negro teachers who are employe:
in the Little Rock School District, the turnover among them
is tremendously small. There is scarcely any.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION Parsons 35
The increase in Negro pupil enrollment in the
district is hardly accountable for the number of Negroes who
annually go over and attend the historically identified white
schools. So we are talking about, now, trying to get white
teachers in all-Negro schools, as they exist in Little Rock
at the present time.
So, since we are not building up the faculty in
the all-Negro schools, because there is no increase in atten
dance there -- actually, there has been a decrease in many of
the schools -- the only way we can get any white faculty mem
bers in there is to transfer some Negro teachers out of the
all-Negro schools into the white schools, and this has been
done on many occasions.
Q You have been able to get some volunteers, so to
speak?
A Yes, we have been able to get some volunteers. And
I think this is a fair statement: that the employment market
for Negro teachers in the State of Arkansas is probably not
as wide as the employment market for white teachers.
Now, why is this true? I would let someone else
analyze that.
Q You have found that to be true?
A Yes, we have found that to be true, because the
Negro teacher who would resign from our system would have dif
ficulty finding, perhaps, a position out in the State. This
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being true, they have tended to hold their positions. The
white teachers, if assigned to a position that they do not li:o
they re-sign because they can go somewhere else and get another
job pretty easily. This has been the basic fundamental fact
involved in this.
Q You are aware, then, that the same procedures --
that is, of talcing established stafff members on the basis of
attrition or voluntary action, and here it would be voluntary
action -- and getting them assigned to another school is not
true or as true in the case of the Negro teachers going to
the predominantly white school as is the converse situation.
Do you understand what I'm asking you, now?
A I think that I do. Just let me say that we have
found greater difficulty in getting white teachers to go to
the all-Negro schools and staying there as teachers than we
have experienced in getting the Negro teacher to go to the
predominantly white school and stay there.
Q For the most part, your white teachers have been
-- I'm going to expedite now, because I didn't quite get over
what I was trying to get.
A All right.
Q For the most part, your white teachers have been
new to the system, is this right?
A This is true.
Q Well, now, why is this? Was this done then with
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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any discriminatory aspect before you?
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MR. WALKER: Your Honor, this is sort of too lead!:;
as a question. I have not been objecting, but --
MR. FRIDAY: All right.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Why was this done?
A This was not done deliberately. It has happened
this way, admittedly, but we have no desire that it be this
way at all. But we have found Negro teachers and I fear
that I am being somewhat repetitious -- we have found Negro
teachers willing to go to positions in the predominantly white
schools.
We have not found very many white teachers who,
under our plan of attrition and encouragement, we have not
found many white teachers who were willing to accept positions
if they already held positions in our system. Consequently,
in order to implement the whole process of faculty desegrega
tion, we have been forced to employ experienced, well-qualifie
properly trained individuals who have not been in our system,
white teachers to accept the positions in the all-Negro school
Q Well, I want to leave that for a moment, and come
back to it, because that bears very seriously on the issue.
Let’s go back to the exhibit, I want you, so I can
formally introduce it, to finish your identification of what
this exhibit reflects.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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A Well, it also reflects the new teachers employed in
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 38
each of these years, the total new teachers employed, so that
there can be a relationship between those employed in minority
situations and those totally employed. It shows on the fol
lowing page two the increase over the previous years.
Then the remainder of the report can bo wrapped up.
I think, in one statement; and that is that we have this same
information that we have been explaining prepared for each
individual school camp: high schools, junior high schools,
and elementary schools.
Q The purpose of the exhibit is to reflect as complet 2
information as possible
A Yes.
Q -- concerning the staff desegregation situation for
the years indicatd; is that correct?
A That is correct. What has happened in our system
since 1965 in terms of staff desegregation.
MR. FRIDAY: I will now formally offer Defendant’s
Exhibit 2 into evidence, Your Honor.
(The document referred to was marked
Defendant's Exhibit No. 2 for identi
fication, and was received in evidence
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Turn to Defendant's Exhibit No. 3, or the document
that I have so marked for identification.
What is that, Mr. Parsons?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - P a r s o n s
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A This, too, is a report that is entitled "Negroes
Teaching in Predominantly White Schools".
Q Well, it contains a lot of the same information in
a little different form, is that right?
A This is -- this, Mr. Friday, is basically the same
information. It's briefed down, somewhat, in a different form
and complies, I think, with the previous exhibit that has
been introduced.
MR. FRIDAY: We wwill formally introduce into evi
dence the Defendant's Exhibit No. 3.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(The document referred to was marked
Defendant's Exhibit No. 3 for identi
fication, and was received in evidence.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, since this is one of the prin
cipal matters with which we were directed to concern ourselves,
I want now to go back in, in a little more detail, as to how
we have gone about it.
Will you state to the Court what is the goal by way
of staff desegregation, and then you can define that goal in
either educational or legal terns, as you see fit.
A I think that the goal for which, basically, we have
been striving is to certainly get some meaningful -- and I
hope I'm not asked to define the word "meaningful" -- but some
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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meaningful staff desegregation in the Little Rock School
District and then proceed to employ and assign teachers, which
we are doing now, totally without regard to race.
Q Well, on the assumption I have qualified you suf
ficiently as an educational expert, will you give the Court --
do you have an expert opinion as to whether or not the way
you have been doing it is the proper way to start and is the
proper way to have proceeded to this point?
MR. WALKER: If it please the Court, before Mr.
Parsons answers, I would like to note our exceptions, Your
Honor. Mr. Parsons has not been qualified as an expert edu
cator. I would assume that his experience would have to be
limited to this particular situation. It would be somewhat
complex for him to be both an expert and at the same time a
defense witness in this particular case. That is no really big
problem with me, but I do want to point out this particular
bias to the Court.
BY MR.
THE COURT:
MR. FRIDAY:
FRIDAY:
Overruled.
Yes, sir.
Proceed.
Thank you.
Q Do you have an opinion, first?
A Yes . I do have an opinion.
Q All right, sir. What is it, Mr. Parsons?
A My opinion is that the educational welfare of boys
and girls should at all times be of paramount concern in the
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operation of an educational program. And because this is of
paramount concern, the race of the teacher should be totally
inconsequential.
We should employ teachers on the basis of their qualifi
cations, on the basis of their ability to teach, if we know
how to determine this. We should employ teachers on the basis
of the teaching personalities that they have, and all of the
wide range of qualifications involved in a relationship
between teacher and pupil. But the race of the teachers shoul I
not be a concern at all. We ought to get the best people we
can get.
Q All right. But now, with the end in mind of
achieving the goal you just stated of getting some meaningful
balance in the schools, specifically, has the way you have
gone about it by attrition and volunteer action, specifically,
in your opinion, is that way the proper wray from an educational
standpoint to have gone about it up to this point in time?
A Certainly, in order to attempt to solve some of the
problems that have been created by the past, we are convinced
that this has been the proper way to go about it.
We would not and would not in every individual case
defend even what we have done totally on an educational basis;
but at the time time, in order to meet some of the problems
that have existed in the past, we have done this and we think
it proper to continue to do this.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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Q Well, is the fact that you are getting some numbers
-- is the fact that these are getting more substantial all of
the time, having any impact upon the possibility of getting
some acceleration by continuing to follow this method?
A I don't think there is any doubt about it. Success
ful and pleasant and rewarding experiences on the part of
some or many have been the result of others being willing to
do this thing that had not previously been done. So we have
had some very -- a great deal of acceleration, actually, in
this entire program, as the report will reflect.
Q Now, though, in all fairness, if you were going to
hit a goal with some meaningful balance -- and let's assume
that may be seventy-thirty -- isn't it going to take you
quite a while to get there?
MR. WALKER: Objection, Your Honor. These que^ions
are too leading.
THE COURT: I think the answer is obvious, but go
ahead and rephrase it, Mr. Friday.
MR. FRIDAY: I am leading up to a point, Your Honor.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q It's going to take you quite a while to get there,
isn't it?
MR. WALKER: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I think that is immaterial. Overruled.
MR. FRIDAY: All right, Your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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THE COURT; I didn't say your question was inmateri
I thought his objection was immaterial.
MR. FRIDAY: On, I see. Thank you.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q It will take you quite a while to get there, will
it not, Mr. Parsons?
A On the basis of our present plan of operation --
Q Of attrition and volunteer action
A Yes.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - P e r s o n s
4 3
Q --as distinguished from arbitrary assignment?
A Yes, it. certainly would.
THE COURT: How long are we talking about, Mr.
Parsons?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I wish that I -- I wish
that I really knew, but I expect It would take several years
at an accelerated pace from where we are at the present time
in order to get there. And I suppose, by talking about several
years, I'm talking about four or five years, anyway.
THE COURT: Isn't this faculty problem broken down
somewhat broadly into two aspects? One is that you started
out with a racially segregated faculty at some time --
THE WITNESS: That is correct.
THE COURT: --- in the Little Rock school system
THE WITNESS: Y es, sir.
Now you have, first, the problem ofTHE COURT:
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DIRECT EXAMINATION * Parsons
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converting that from a racially segregated faculty to a
desegregated faculty with your existing teachers, is that not
true?
THE WITNESS: Right. And what attrition occurs.
Resignations occur every year.
THE COURT: I gather that is one problem you have.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: After that problem has been solved, you
think that the selection of new teachers thereafter should be
on the question of the abilities of the individual teachers,
withou regard to their race.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I surely do.
THE COURT: But that would not solve the eliminatio
of the existing problem, would it?
THE WITNESS: No, not -- not if we were going to
arbitrary assignments, it would not. That's correct.
Now on the basis of resignations every year, be
assured, Your Honor, that we interview -- and Mr. Fowler does
this as we interview and employ teachers, we are certainly
going to interview both white and Negro and employ both white
and Negro, and assign them in positions where there is some
deliberate attempt on our part to get some Negro teachers
teaching in the predominantly or all-white schools as such
exist, and the white teachers teaching in the all-Negro school
as they now exist.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - P a r s o n s
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We have deliberately done this, and it would be our
plan to continue to do so.
THE COURT: You have indicated that the turnover
among white teachers is higher than that among the Negro
teachers?
THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
THE COURT: What is the annual turnover of the whit;
teachers?
THE WITNESS: About -- about ten or eleven per cent,
maybe twelve per cent in some years.
THE COURT: And your Negro faculties?
THE WITNESS: Well, I believe we had only three out
of about thirty per cent of our faculty. I believe there were
three Negro teachers who resigned this year. I haven't con
verted that to a percentage, but it's very, very few.
THE COURT: On the ten per cent basis, theoretically
your faculty would be completely new -- now, I know it doesn't
work out that way -- but a new faculty every ten years,
THE WITNESS: That's correct, yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: But you -- if I may, I would like to
remark that you cannot -- if you employed a hundred white
teachers every year and thirty Negro teachers every year, you
can never be assured -- well, you know you can’t assign the
hundred white teachers to work in the schools that are
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I) I RE CT EX AM I NAT I ON Pars ons
predominantly Negro and the thirty Negro teachers to work in
the schools that are all-white. It just won't work out that
way because of specialities and qualifications and job require
ments. It can't be done.
MR. FRIDAY: With the Court's permission, let's
pursue this. I think this is important enough to fully and
frankly develop it.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
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Q Mr. Parsons, you could do this, couldn't you, by
arbitrarily assigning them?
A Oh, sure.
Q Well, you couldn't do it entirely, could you? You
would still have these considerations.
A There would still be unusual conditions that would
exist. For example
THE COURT: You wouldn't assign an English teacher
to teach a math class.
THE WITNESS
THE COURT:
MR. FRIDAY:
I
Correct, sir.
understand that.
All right, Your Honor, we will drop th ■
point.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Let me go on now and ask you this: are teachers
assigned in the Little Rock School District or employed in
the Little Rock School District on the basis of precise
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assignments to particular schools and subjects, et cetera?
Do you know what I'm talking about?
A Yes, Mr. Friday. Largely, this is true. This is
not to say that wc haven't occasionally employed some elemen
tary teachers without, specific assignments in mind for the
teacher when we employed that individual.
Q All right.
S But largely, teachers are employed on the basis of
specific assignments that are available to them.
Q Why?
A Well, this is to -- in the first place, to keep us
from employing people that we might find out later we couldn't
use, and
Q What do you mean you "might find out later you
couldn't use" them?
A Well, if we had an electronics course, for example,
out at Metropolitan Senior High School and we needed a teacher
for this electronics court, we'd be very foolish to go back
to our pool of teachers -- assuming we had employed a pool of
twenty teachers and planned to place them later on in the
system -- to look for someone who is qualified in electronics,
because about nine chances out of ten, or ninety-nine out of
a hundred, we couldn't find any.
Q Well, how about the importance from the standpoint
-- based on your experience of quality teaching -- of following
DIRECT EXAMINATION - P a r s o n s
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this practice of employing teachers for specific assignments?
Is this important to the teacher?
A Well, we think it's tremendously important to the
pupilj and we think it's tremendously important to this com
munity and to this school system, and it's also important, of
court, to the teacher.
Q Why?
A Because of the fact that every individual should
be prepared in certain given fields, and are prepared, if they
are teachers, in certain given fields; and their assignemnts
of teaching out to be - - their field of preparation ought to
support the assignment that has been given to them, to say
nothing of the North Central Assiciation requirements, when
we get into the secondary level, where we are not permitted
by Nort Central Association accreditation nor our State
Department accreditation to assign people out of their field
of preparation.
MR. FRIDAY: Nov;, just to further develop this
point, and then I'll leave it, Your Honor.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Does the Little Rock School District have a, say,
negotiating relationship with an organization representing
the teachers, all of the teachers, in the Little Rock School
District?
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
48
A Yes, we do.
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Q What is that relationship?
A This relationship, which is relatively new -- by
that, I'm talking about within the last two years -- this
negotiations agreement is an agreement with the Classroom
Teachers Professional Association in Little Rock and the
Board of Directors that any matters that affect the welfare of
the teachers, they will have an opportunity to sit with the
administration and the board and negotiate concerning these
matters.
Arid we have been in the process, for some time, of
negotiating on a package of matters concerning the welfare,
and many items other than the welfare, of the classroom teachc:
who are employed in this system.
Q All right. At the time of the filing of this cur
rent proceeding, had those negotiations developed to a stage
of substantial agreement in principle?
A I would say there was full agreement in principle.
Q What was the principle agreed upon with reference
to teacher assignments?
A Well, the principle that was presented, and a prin
ciple in which there seemed to be no disagreement, was that nc
teacher employed in the Little Rock system would be reassigned
or transferred to another position or to another school without
a ninety-day notice. Nov, there were two or three exceptions
to this, but, of course, there had to be.
DIR1-CT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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If the pupil enrollment, in a given school went
down to where there were not enough pupils to support the
employment of that many teachers in that, particular school,
why, naturally, we would have to transfer these individuals.
Now, we might not know that until September 5th.
Q Well, also, you have been advised, obviously, this
would have to defer to any constitutional or court require
ments .
MR. WALKER: Objection, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: We certainly have, yes.
MR. FRIDAY: Well, I asked him if he had been
advised.
MR. WALKER: Well, Your Honor
THE COURT: Overruled. I know that.
Let's proceed. I know that.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Aside from this, and one other question only: in
order, without putting the contract in - - I think there is no
dispute -- the contract entered into with teachers includes a
provision that the policies of the board are part of it, is
this correct?
A This is correct.
Q What has been the policy for many years prior to th
particular negotiations referred to above, with reference to
teacher assignment?
DIRECT EXAMINATION Parsons
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - P a r s o n s 51
A The policy has actually been somewhat more liberal
than the policy that the Classroom Teachers are now requesting
in this document, in that the present policy reads that no
teacher with, again, certain exceptions, no teacher shall he
transferred or reassigned to another position or school in
the system unless that teacher were notified at the time that
the contract for employment was offered to her, and those
contracts are usually offered in April -- occasionally in May
-- depending upon what is happening, actually, in the legis
lature .
Q But that was at a time before you had negotiations
and agreements?
A This is true.
Q Now, when we re contracts awarded and assignments
made for the 1968-1969 school year?
A This was in May of 1968.
Q All right.
THE COURT: Let's take a recess for about ten or
twelve minutes.
(A short recess was taken.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q All right, Mr. Parsons, continuing on faculty
assignment procedures, is the policy that should be followed
with reference to the assignment of faculty related to the
pupil" assignment procedures that are being followed at the
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DIRECT EXAMINATION Parsons 52
same time?
A Yes.
Q How?
A Well, it is only natural that, for example, under
the freedom of choice plan, we cannot definitely once and fcr
all determine the requirements of any school in terms of
faculty until forms have been gotten out to students as they
were in April, and the results of these forms are tabulated
to determine the enrollment in each school at the elementary
level, and not only to determine the enrollment, but subsequent
to this enrollment at the secondary level, junior and senior-
high school levels, there is a pre-registration to determine
the needed courses and the number of students who request or
require each of the many courses that are offered at the
secondary level in order to determine the number of faculty
members required in each school, and the qualifications of
those faculty members, especially at the secondary level.
Q Mr. Parsons, I have handed you a document marked fc:
identification Exhibit No. 4, which purports to be entitled
"Plan for Faculty Desegregation, Little Rock Public Schools";
and 1*11 ask you what that document is?
A This document is the result of several administrati".
staff meetings and coordination with the Classroom Teachers
Association and the Principals Roundtable, the two professional
associations within the system, and it purports to set forth
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 53
a plan of arbitrary assignment of teachers in the Little Rock
public school system in the event that we were ordered to make
such arbitrary assignments.
Q In other words, it is prefaced upon the premise
that you are going to abandon your present procedures and go
to arbitrary assignments to achieve the goal or a stated ratio '
A Yes, and it is also prefaced upon the possibility
of a system of zoning, which, of course, would require con
siderable reassignment, anyway.
Q All right, we will dwell on this in a minute; but
for the record, briefly summarize what this document purports
to reflect?
A This document begins by giving a history since 1957
through the estimate of 1968-69, which is, 1 think, an
intelligent estimate because freedom of choice forms are in,
of what has happened in terms of the Negro students in our
system expressing choices to attend those schools that have
been historically identified as white schools:
Then it also gives a very brief report on faculty desegregation
showing that it began in 1965-66, and showing the numbers
involved in here, which is somewhat repetitious of previous
documents that have been introduced, or exhibits that have
been introduced.
Then there are certain quotes from the Clark case that tend to
identify the posture of the school system in relationship to
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D1 RE CT E X AM I NAT I ON Parsons
faculty desegregation.
Then reference is made to the letter that the Honorable Judge
here wrote,, subsequent to the filing of the motion, and the
two requests that were made in this letter.
And on page four of the document we list some five recommen
dations; The first four recommendations have to do with the
sequential steps that would have to be taken in connection
with developing a new plan of pupil assignment as well as
faculty desegregation, while the fifth step has to do with
some guidelines that we have proposed in terms of complete
arbitrary faculty desegregation, were we directed to do so.
Q In other words, you have made the plans and set
up the procedures as to how it ought to be accomplished,
educationally, if this course were undertaken?
A Yes.
MR. FRIDAY: There are some probably self-serving,
Your Honor, observations on the last page, but let's get it
into the testimony.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Will you state to the Court whether you think this
plan ought to be undertaken in September, 1968-1969?
A No, we think that it shouldn't.
Q Why do you think that?
A We think it should not because of the extremely
short time that we have had since the most recent Supreme
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
Court ruling, for example.
Q The end o£ May?
A Yes, all freedom o£ choice forms were already out,
they had been turned in, the enrollment in each school had beer,
established on the basis of freedom of choice forms that had
been presented, faculty members had been employed, faculty
members had been assigned to the various schools, plans had
been made by principals, of course, are made by principals
for the offering of certain courses in keeping with the request
and requirements and demands of the individual student body of
that school.
Organizations have been established, both curricular, co~
curricular, and extra-curricular. Organizations have been
established -- bands, if I may use this as an example: the
band director in each school has already determined that ho
is going to have four French horn players, and three tuba
players, or whatever it may be, and the changing ox the student
body, and the changing of these matters at this late date
would throw a - would present a very difficult problem to the
organization and structure of the school system, to say nothing
of the fact that coaches have already determined how many
halfbacks, and which halfbacks, and which tackles, and which
guards, and all these things.
But let me emphasize that the educational aspects of this are
the compelling reasons that we think it should not be done in
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - P a r s o n s 56
September, 1968, in that courses are organized, and teachers
have been assigned to those courses; and the changing of the
student body at this particular school, and the changing of
the faculty would make it extremely difficult to play checkers >
so to speak, with these people, and get them all to fit into
the slots, and to be able to function effectively in terms of
the curriculum and requirements of one particular school over
the one where they thought they were going.
Many of the teachers have gone to summer school, have attended
institutes and have made special preparation for the courses
that they assumed, at least, that they were going to be teach
ing, and not in every instance could wo guarantee at all that
you could move a teacher from one position and put her in
identically the same position in another school, because there
are so many extra duties that teachers perform, such as sponsor
ing yearbooks, school newspapers, and all these things, that
it would make it almost impossible to play checkers with these
people without a long period of time to work these matters out,
Q This Court does not control timing. I believe you
said this chain of events started when; this chain of events
you have just described? I don't want this confined to just
two weeks before school, is my point now.
A This chain of events really began when the Supreme
Court May 27th, is that date correct?
Q Let's go back to when pupil and staff assignments
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started.
A Oh, pupil and staff assignments started --
Q The chain of events emboding these difficulties --
A Began when we got out the freedom of choice forms
in April, on April 1st, and tabulated the results from the
freedom of choice forms.
Q And the things you have described have been taking
place since that time on up, and what you are talking about is
now undoing that chain of events.
A They have taken place, it is in place now; or if it
isn't, it certainly should be with only a couple or three
weeks before classes actually begin.
Q In the recommendations of how to do this when it
is done, or when and if it is done, embodied participation
now from what groups or what people?
A Participation in this was by the administrative
staff, the organization of the Classroom Teachers Association,
the Principals Roundtable, and, of course, these documents
have been shared with cur Board of Directors.
MR. FRIDAY: We offer into evidence Defendants'
Exhibit Number 4.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(Whereupon, the document was marked Defendants'
Exhibit 4 for identification and was received in evidence.)
THE COURT: Mr. Parsons, you've narrated the
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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DIRECT EXAMINATION Parsons
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problems that would occur if you did it before this September?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: What would be your problems if you did
it before next September?
THE WITNESS: The problems in terms of time would
not be so great. One of the major problems that I failed to
identify, actually, was the fact that if this were done now
in terms of the human rights of people, there would be some
of these rights, it seems to me, abrogated, because it is
entirely possible that the changing of assignments of certain
people within our system now might result -- and I’m not
saying it would -- might result in their resignation, and the
time of the year is such that a resignation on the part of any
individual now would probably prohibit his getting another
job: and, important to us, it might prevent our being able to
replace that individual xvith a fully qualified teacher.
I, as I have previously testified, feel that the process of
resignations and the and a conscientious determined effort
to get as much faculty desegregation out of these resignations
as we can possibly get, is an educationally sound approach to
this problem; but the desegregation of faculty by declaring
every position open and just the reassignment arbitrarily of
faculty members, would not present as great a problem in
September, 1969, as it would present in September, 1968.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - P a r s o n s 59
Q All right, sir. At the risk of some repetition to
keep it in context, should or should not any major faculty
revision be geared to the pupil desegregation procedures being
followed?
A Yes.
Q This particular one was geared to zoning; is that
correct?
A That is correct.
Q I'm going to hand you a document that I have marked
for identification Defendant's Exhibit No. 5, This document
consists of eight pages clipped together.
Will you please describe what information the document pur
ports to reflect?
A The actual enrollment of the various schools in the
system between the years of 1960-61 and 1966-67, by schools,
and by race. I haven't had a great deal of time to look at
this document.
Q Take a moment and look at it.
A The third page of the document has to do with the
pupil enrollment in the secondary schools by race, by school,
with a percentage given -- I'm sure this percentage in those
schools that have been historically identified as white is
given in terms of the number of Negro students enrolled in
those schools, and that's a secondary level -- and then a
recap of the senior high and junior high and elementary, and
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then the grand total in terras of white and Negro as of
September, 1966.
Q All right, now, the document, for the first part
of it, seems to carry the date of 1967: the latter pages
update it through -- as of July 12, 1968?
A That’s correct, 9-11-67; and then *68.
Q Just quickly for the record, can you tell me how
many Negro students are in a desegregated situation, or will
be, based on present choice forms for the next school year?
A In excess of 2,300,
MR,. FRIDAY: Your Honor, we offer this document on
pupil assignment for the years indicated as Defendant’s
Exhibit 5.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(The document referred to was marked Defendant’s
Exhibit No. 5 for identification, and was received in evidence
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q All right, now, I want to bring you -- we started
with the Clark decision before, and let’s get back in sequence
of developments of what’s been going on in this school district
concerning desegregation since the Clark decision.
What was the first, say, major development that occurred with
reference to an effort to get a permanent desegregation
approach in this district after the Clark decision was handed
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 60
down?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 61
A The first major effort was an effort on the part
of the board which was an effort that was culminated to bring
into Little Rock a team of experts to make a careful study
of this community and the school system in particular with a
view to making a report, including recommendations as to how
the Little Rock public school system could fully desegregate
its schools, which, of course, is the Oregon Report that I’m
talking about.
Q Well, what prompted the board, if you know, to try
to get some expert advice on a permanent solution?
A Mr. Friday, I’m not sure that I*m fully capable of
reading the reasons, but it seemed to me, and does now, that
the board at that time, as subsequent boards have been, have
been frustrated somewhat by this whole problem, and in this
frustration they said if there is some way that this problem
can be solved, let's set ourselves to the task of solving it,
and let's get an independent group in here for the purpose of
making the study, someone who doesn't know anything particular
about the past history of this community, and see what they
would recommend, and see whether or not it can be implemented;
so I think it was an earnest and a sincere desire on the part
of the board to get a study that might lead to the permanent
solution of this problem.
Q All right, I handed you a document which purports
to be excerpts from minutes of a board meeting of August 29,
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
62
1966, concerning the employment of the Oregon team marked for
identification as Defendants' Exhibit No. 6. Can you so
identify that?
A Yes, sir.
MR. FRIDAY: We offer this, Your Honor, as De
fendants' Exhibit No. 6.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(Whereupon the document referred to was marked
Defendants' Exhibit No. 6 for identification, and was received
in evidence.)
THE COURT: It was before the Clark case.
MR. FRIDAY: You are correct, Your Honor. I mis
stated that. It was before. The Clark case was in December,
1966.
MR. WALKER: The Clark case was pending on appeal
at that time.
THE COURT: Of course, it was.
MR. FRIDAY: Was it actually before the -- the
record will speak for itself.
THE COURT: I'm sure it was pending in the Court
of Appeals, in August, the 29th -- probably under submission,
Mr. Friday.
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, sir.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q What did the Oregon plan cost you?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 63
A $24,212.00, I believe; about $25,000.00.
Q Let me hand you a document and ask you to identify
it, and determine in a minute whether or not wc are going to
introduce it. What is it?
A This is the report of the team from the University
of Oregon at Eugene.
0 It consists of 203 pages?
A Yes, sir.
Q Just for the record, you have studied arid summarizet
this report: I want to get in the record your best summary, as
brief as possible now, of what the Oregon team reported. I
think it is important here to keep the sequence of events
here as to what this board has been considering.
A I hope you realize how difficult it is to summarize
a 203 page report,
Q But you have spent a great deal of time on it, Mr.
Parsons.
A This report, basically, proposed the re-structuring
of the grade levels in the Little Rock public school system,
the creation of -- or the introduction to Little Rock of what
could be called the middle school concept. It involved creating
one senior high school for the city, which was could have
been classified as an educational park concept, involving some
5,000 or plus students in this one senior high school; involved
the closing down of Mann High School, and the paring of Mann
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
64
with Metropolitan High School, at a cost of all of this of --
at a cost in excess of $10 million for new structures that
would have to be built in order to implement this particular
p 1 an,
Incidentally, it might be pointed o;it to the Court at this
time that $10 million was just exactly the amount of bonded
leeway that we had in this district, so it could not have been
more than this. It failed to do one thing that came out of the
directions that were given to the Oregon team, and that is
that it said nothing about the elimination of the all-Negro
schools in this system, other than the Horace Mann School.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we are going to interpose
at least an objection and state that the Oregon report speaks
for itself. Mr. Parsons' comments --
THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Did any member of the board, or any member of the
staff, participate with the Oregon team in the preparation of
this report?
A In the preparation of the report, none whatever.
However, we submitted to the Oregon group any statistics they
requested. Any statistics they requested, we submitted to them
Q Bid you prepare for the Board your analysis of
your position concerning the relative merits of the various
proposals in the Oregon Report?
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A Yes, I did.
Q And that is part of the official minutes?
A I v/ould assume it is, yes.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I ant going to offer this
as Defendant's Exhibit No. 7.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(Whereupon, the document was marked as Defendant5.:
Exhibit No. 7 for identification» and was received in evidence
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q I am now going to hand you a document which purports
to be your report on the Oregon Report directed to the board
of directors, and ask you if that is a copy of it. It’s marked
for identification Defendant's Exhibit No. 8.
THE COURT: Eight?
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: What was seven?
MR. FRIDAY: The Oregon Report itself, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, this is my report concerning
the Oregon Report.
MR. FRIDAY: We offer this as Defendant's Exhibit
No. 8.
THE COURT: It will be received.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 65
(Whereupon, the document was marked as Defendant's
Exhibit No. 8 for identification, and was received in evidence
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 66
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Then, for the record, just, briefly try to summarise
the areas which you found objectionable or the staff found
objectionable.
A This is really -- this report really constitutes
my objections.
Q All right. Briefly state them.)
A I disagreed slightly with the plan proposed for
the pairing of Mann and Metropolitan Schools, really submitting
to the board a departure from that plan as submitted by the
Oregon team somewhat, but basically and essentially agreeing
with it.
THE COURT: May I interrupt?
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Looking at No. 8, it appears to be a
report from Mr. Fowler to Mr. Parsons.
MR. FRIDAY; I apologize, Your Honor, I have handed
you the wrong document, then.
This is the document, you are correct.
THE COURT: You don't have an extra copy?
MR. FRIDAY: I'm sorry, I don't,
THE COURT: That's all right. Let him use it.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Go ahead.
A All right. The alteration of the freedom of choice
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DIRECT EXAMINATION Parsons 67
plan, the complete alteration of the freedom of choice plan
as recommended in the Oregon Report, would have required a
rather extensive -- development of a rather extensive system
of transportation in the system.
I did oppose in this report the complete abandonment of the
neighborhood school concept, stating in the report that there
might be very convincing arguments that would favor the
abandonment of the neighborhood school concept at the high
school level, but that I was a proponent of the neighborhood
school concept at the elementary level.
As I said in the report, I found no real evidence that would
support re-structuring grade organizations as a means to
achieving the desired end in terms of the assignment that was
given to the committee.
The Oregon Report went into some detail as to the methods to
be used in getting Negro pupils into the predominantly white
schools, but if was rather conspicuously silent on how to get
any white pupils into the Negro schools. To do this, as we all
know, would ultimately, we think, create a serious financial
problem for this community because we would begin to abandon
schools on the east and have to build more and more schools
on the west.
Q What was the price package that would involve
community financial support put on the report by the Oregon
team?
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A A little in excess of $10 million.
Q You think that was a conservative --
A I think it was extremely conservative. To have done
what they outlined would have cost materially more than $10
million.
Q Now, to expedite, Mr. Parsons, this Oregon Report
was widely distributed in the community, isn’t that correct?
A Yes. One of our local newspapers, the Gazette,
carried the report verbatim in their daily newspaper.
Q Did it prompt a good bit of community activity and
discussion?
A Yes, very much. That’s putting it mildly.
Q At least what you heard, was it favorable or un
favorable?
A What I heard was either favorable or unfavorable,
yes.
Q To bring you on down without getting on that, I
hand you a document marked for identification Defendant’s
Exhibit No. 9, which purports to be excerpts from the minutes
of the board meeting August 31, 1967, and ask you if you can
identify that?
A Yes, this is an excerpt from the board of directors'
regular meeting on August 31.
Q What action did the board take at that point which
sort of culminated the Oregon Report and moved over into what
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parson.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 69
we will now get into as the Parsons Report?
A Subsequent to my expressed opposition to the
implementation of many o£ the recommendations of the Oregon
Report -- not all of them, but many of them -- the board of
directors at this meeting on August 31, by unanimous action,
directed the Superintendent of Schools to prepare a long-range-
plan for desegregation of the Little Rock School District with
emphasis to be placed on the secondary level for the 1968
school year and to submit this plan not later than January 25,
Incidentally, I think it was submitted prior to the deadline,
Q All right. It reflects, I believe, Mr. Patterson
made the motion, Mr. Coates seconded, and the board unanimousl;r
adopted it, directing you to proceed as prescribed?
A That's correct.
MR. FRIDAY: We offer this into evidence, Your
Honor, as Defendant's Exhibit No. 9.
THE COURT: It's received.
(Whereupon, the document heretofore referred tc
was marked Defendant's Exhibit No. 9 for identification, and.
was received in evidence.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Did you proceed as directed, Mr. Parsons?
A Yes, we did.
Q What did you do?
A Well, I hope we thought for awhile, and I think we
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DTRECT EXAMINATION Parsons 70
did, about the various types of possibilities that might comp
with the directive that ha. been given to us by the board of
directors; and using certain individuals on cur staff ~~
especially would I refer to Don Roberts, and I would refer to
Mr. Lamar Deal, who did a great deal of the map work under
our direction and Mr. Roberts preparing all of the tables and
my writing the subjective portions of the report after much
discussion and many meetings, we drafted a report and submitter
it and called it the Desegregation Report for the Little Rock
Publie S choo1s.
Q All right, I am going to hand you a document which
has been marked for identification Defendant's Exhibit No. 10,
entitled Desegregation Report, Little Rock School District,
consisting o£ some 79 pages and ask you if that is the so-
called Parsons Plan?
A Yes, this is the document.
MR. FRIDAY: I’m going to offer this in evidence,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(Whereupon, the document heretofore referred to
was marked Defendant's Exhibit No. 10 for identification, and
was received in evidence.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Again, briefly for the record, describe what you
have done in this proposal.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 71
A Wo began our writing by identifying certain problem;
within our community. We expressed some concepts that were
ours and we explained very clearly that these were ours and
not. the board's and not anyone else's; and then we proceeded
at the direction of the board -- by the direction, I am tall-in ;
about the motion that was made -- we proceeded to draft a plan
that would completely, in our judgment, desegregate the senior-
high schools in the Little Rock School District.
This was to be achieved through the process of what might be
called strip zoning from east to west, the closing down of
the all-Negro high school on the east side, building additions
to both Park View and Hall, and strip zoning Hall, Park Viet:,
and Central High School in order to achieve a reasonable ratio
of the races in these three high schools.
In addition to the high school plan, upon leaving the Mann
High School building vacant, we recommended the creation of
what we called the Alpha Complex, which would have been a
creative and innovative elementary school in grades one
through six, enabling us to close four buildings on the east-
aide of Main Street that had long since ceased to be functional
and adequate to carry on a good educational program, and this
building would have resulted in the creation of a reasonable
racial ratio at the elementary level in this particular section
of the city.
In addition to this, we suggested the creation of the Beta
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - P a r s o n s
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Complex, which involved the Garland, Lee, Stephens, Franklin,
and Onkhurst Schools ~~ five schools -- making a complex out
of these five schools because one of these schools was all-
Negro, the Stephens Elementary School, and. the others were
predominantly white; and by dividing these schools up and
offering grades one, tv;o, and three in a couple of buildings
and grades four, five, and six in two of the other buildings,
and using the fifth building as a complex core building, we
would have achieved a reasonable racial balance within this
particular area of our city.
We did not in this report even purport to solve all of the
desegregation problems in the Little Rock School District. We
made it very clear in the report that we didn't claim this
for the report. We did claim for the report, however, that it
would make tremendous inroads into the problems that do exist
and I still contend that it would have done this.
We did not attack the junior high school problem at all. A
solution for this at that time escaped us, and I’m not sure
but that it still escapes us. However, we do have some ideas
that may come out later in this hearing. I do not know.
Q Mr. Parsons, I think it is important that the record
properly reflect the time consumed by you and the staff and
the various alternatives considered. I don’t want a great deal
of detail but I want the record proper in this regard.
Bri- fly, how do you go about arriving at what you set out in
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DIRECT EXAMINATI: l - Parsons 73
the Parsons Report?
A Well, we sat down and talked an' wc studied --
MR. WALKER: Excuse me. Your Honor, v/e would stipule; :
that Mr. Parsons and his staff spent a considerable amount of
time in preparing the Parsons Plan.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. FRIDAY: We will accept that, Your Honor.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q To move- on, did the board take action on this
report?
A Yes, they did.
Q I hand you a document marked for identification.
Defendant's Exhibit No. 11 which purports to be a meeting of
the board of directors held on January 10, 1868, dealing with
this matter, and ask you if that is a copy of the minutes of
the board?
A Yes, these are the minutes of the board on January
-- the board meeting on January 10.
Q The matter precisely before the board to expedite .
was to approve the budget to go to the electors?
A Yes.
Q All right. Will you look at which I have just
handed you and tell the Court just what action the board did
take on this report. I think you will find it over on page
seven. Flip over to page seven and you will get to that part
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 74
of it.
A All right. The board adopted the proposal tc call
a bond issue of $5,176,000.00 which, it was clearly understood
would be to support and implement the plan that had been
submitted and to propose a millage rate of fifty mills.
Q The purpose of the proposal being to implement the
desegregation report of the superintendent. I take this to be
approval of the report and submission to the electors.
A Yes.
MR. FRIDAY: We offer into evidence, Your Honor,
Defendant's Exhibit No. 11, consisting of eight pages.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(Whereupon, the document heretofore referred to
was marked Defendant’s Exhibit No. 11 for identification, and
was received in evidence.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Do you know whether there was community involvement
in this desegregation plan?
A I am fully aware of the fact there was a great deal
of community involvement, yes -- not in the preparation of the
plan, none whatsoever.
Q I understand, but in an effort to get community
education and support and participation?
A Yes.
Q Summarize it, briefly.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION P a r s o n s 75
A Well, there were organizations and meetings called
all over the community. We proceeded to make transparencies
and slides and took these to many, many meetings. I personally
I think I made 52 or 54 speeches in support of this plan.
After the vote was taken, I calculated that I lost about 12C
votes every time 1 spoke, but I did speak on many, many occasiu
as did Mr. Roberts and other members of our staff. We never
did refuse a request to appear, and we were appearing sometime:;
as many as three and four times daily.
Q All right, when was the election in 1968 at which
the electorate passed on the submission to them?
A It was in March. I do not have the day.
Q I believe the second Tuesday, but that is immaterial
In. March, 1968?
A In March.
Q What were the results of the election?
A The result was that the proposal that was submitted
by the board was defeated by the electorate.
Q The electorate did not furnish the financial support
for the board-apprved plan, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q Now, I believe you have testified that within a few
days after that you had to proceed with the assignment procedtv
for this year?
A On April 1st.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 76
Q And I think you have cov- red what's happened since
that tiiae.
A Yes. On April 1, we were required to get out the
freedom of choice plans.
Q All right, Mr. Parsons, during the process of this,
and I direct this to you as Superintendent, did you consider
a zoning approach to solving the desegregation difficulties o£
the district as you listed them in that report, among other
alternatives?
A I'm not sure that I have your time.
Q When you were making up what culminated in the
Parsons Plan.
A Oh, yes, certainly we did, many different types of
zoning plans.
Q Mr. Parsons, at my request and at the board's
request, have you prepared a plan for the desegregation of
the Little Rock schools based upon compulsory zoning?
A Yes, we have.
Q All right.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I have you a set made.
Maybe you would rather look at this.
THE COURT: If I had a small set, maybe I could
mark on it and make some notes on it.
MR. FRIDAY: Yes sir, we have it for that purpose.
the COURT: Mr. Walker, will you be able to see the
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 77
big map?
MR. WALKER: I have a copy, Your Honor.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Mr. Parsons, with the assistance of Mr, Roberts
and without my asking you precise questions, I am going to
ask you the general questions to explain the proposal that you
prepared to the Court.
THE COURT: Are you going to identify that?
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, sir.
BY MR. JRIDAY:
Q We have now placed on the easel a map which is
identified for identification as Defend nt's Exhibit No. 12;
and you are now directing your remarks to Defendant's Exhibit
No. 12, is that correct?
A Yes.
(Whereupon, the map heretofore referred to was
marked Defendant's Exhibit No. 12 for identification.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q All right, what is Defendant's Exhibit No. 12, and
take it from there?
A This is the this is a map
MR. FRIDAY: It will be marked "Elementary" on
yours, Your Honor.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Go ahead now.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - P a r s o n s 78
A This is a map showing proposed zones for compulsory
zones for the Little Rock School District in terms of elements -
schools. On this map, the zones that are drawn have followed
the direction that has been given to us by our school board,
which, in effect, was that we would prepare a map showing
elementary school zones, we would incorporate within the lines
o£ each zone as much desegregation as we possibly could with
out creating undue transports' ion and other burdens upon the
people who reside within these zones and the children who
would be required to attend those schools.
We have also shown on this map the number of white and the
number of Negro pupils in each of these zones, according to the
latest records that we have available to us, with the full
knowledge, of course, that there is an in-migration and out
migration constantly, I’m sure, in all of these zones.
This is what Defendant’s Exhibit No. 12 is, white and Negro
in each zone.
Q Then you can look at Defendant’s Exhibit No. 12 and
for the elementary level, based on this zoning, see the racial
make-up of each school, is that right?
A That1s true.
MR. FRIDAY: I will not burden the record at this
time to read all of these in, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
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DI RF.CT EXAM I NAT I ON Parsons 79
Q I am now placing the junior high map, which we vd
mark for identification Defendant's Exhibit No. 13.
(Whereupon, the map heretofore referred to was
marked Defendant's Exhibit No. 13 for identification.)
A Defendant's Exhibit No. 13 is a map showing the
junior high school zones, as proposed, drawn on the basis of
the same concepts that have been, previously expressed and
showing also the racial composition according to the latest
records available to us that we would find in each zone, white
and Negro.
Q All right. There would be actual integration in
every junior high school, is this correct?
A No.
Q Where would there not be?
A There would not be, according to present records,
any Negroes at all in Forest Heights Junior High School. There
would be 908 white children and zero Negro children. In every
other school that has been historically identified as white,
there would be Negro children and in every school that has
been historically identified as Negro, there would be white
children.
Q I'm now placing, Mr. Parsons, a map for the senior
high schools that will be marked for identification as
Defendant's Exhibit No. 14.
(Whereupon, the map heretofore referred to was
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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marked Defend nt’s Exhibit No. 14 for identification.)
BY MR. FRIDAY;
Q Proceed to comment to the senior high school.
A Defendant's Exhibit No. 14 is a map dividing the
Little Rock School District into four senior high school zones,
leaving out the fifth senior high school which has been
traditionally and still is, a system-wide high school, and we
are speaking of Metropolitan, which is a vocational and
technical school and achieves its enrollment through the proces
of requests and testing of vocational aptitudes on the part cf
students. There are four high school districts, Mann High,
Central High, Park View and Hall.
Q To show the contrast quickly, what would be the
racial composition of Hall High School?
A 1,408 white students, three Negro students.
Q What would be the racial composition of Mann'High
School?
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, we went further and there
are a couple of alternatives that we had difficulty choosing
between, and I am going to let him put those on. I don’t know
if they arc in the little maps or not.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, before we proceed, there
is one thing unclear to me from the introduction and that is
whether Park View was listed as a junior high school or senior
high school.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 81
THE WITNESS: Listed as a senior high school here.
MR. WALKER: On the second map, it's listed as a
junior high school, too. I wonder if that is a mistake.
MR. FRIDAY: It’s a mistake if it is.
MR. WALKER: That’s what your map shows, Your Honor
THE COURT: 1 see Park View School there.
MR. WALKER: Does that figure refer to Park View or *
MR. FRIDAY: Let's go back and make it plain.
THE COURT: I’ll tell you, Mr. Friday, it’s 12:00
o'clock. Maybe this would be a good time to break.
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And you can clarify the record after
lunch.
MR. FRIDAY: All right.
THE COURT: We will adjourn until 1:30.
(Whereupon, at 12:00 o’clock noon, the above-
entitled proceedings were in recess to reconvene at 1:30
o’clock p.m., the afternoon o£ the same day.)
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82
AFTERNOON SESSION
1:30 p.n .
Thereupon,
FLOYD W. PARSONS
having been previously called as a witness, and having pre
viously been duly sworn, resumed the stand and was further
examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Resumed
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Mr. Parsons, just before lunch, there appeared that
there might be some apparent confusion, as to the schools on
the exhibits you had just covered, being Exhibits Nos. 12, 13
and 14, I believe.
Will you point out that there is no discrepancy on the exhibits
we have introduced, and if there is any differences because of
the little maps?
A There are no discrepancies in the maps that Your
Honor has and Mr. Walker has, if you will pay no attention to
the stars that exist on these maps -- these are blown-up maps
out of the Parsons Plan, actually, where these stars were
meaningful -- and pay attention only there to the color codes.
For instance, on the junior high schools map, you would pay
no attention to that star that says "Park View" on that map..
You could "x" it out, if you wish to, and you could "x" cut
the others, and merely use the squares that are colored there.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 83
Q Take, for example, Defendant's Exhibit 13, there
appear to be yellow squares,
A Right,
Q Are those schools?
A Those are the schools that we propose on these maps,
THE COURT: Mr. Parsons, is Park View meaningful?
The word "Park View"?
THE WITNESS: No, the word "Park View" is not
meaningful there. It will be meaningful on the senior high
school zones, Your Honor, but not on the junior high school or
elementary zones.
THE COURT: Is there any other word but the Park
View School that should be stricken? Is there any other phrase
hut that should be stricken?
THE WITNESS: No, that is the only one that should
be stricken.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Let's take, for an example, Mr. Parsons, Defendant':
Exhibit 13, junior high areas, where there appeared there might
be some confusion, and let’s name for the record, starting at
the far left-hand of this exhibit as you face the exhibit. I
really do not want any confusion.
There is one marked with the coding underneath "N-2, W-808".
What is that school?
A I hope I can tell you. That should be -- that is
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 84
Henderson Junior High School.
Q Go immediately up to the topmost --
A Forest --
Q Just a minute, let me get this in. ~~ where it
says "N-0, W-908". What does that mean?
A Forest Heights Junior School.
Q And immediately below that, where the coding is
"N-62,W« 859".
A That is Southwest Junior High.
Q Proceeding to the right
THE COURT: Just a minute. I didnft get that.
THE WITNESS: Southwest, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Where is that?
MR. FRIDAY: That's where the coding is "N-62,
W-859".
THE COURT: Now I see it.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Now proceed again toward the right near the top
where the coding is '‘N-6S, W-672". What is that?
A Pulaski Heights Junior High.
Q Proceeding on to the next one, it's coded "N-398.
W-47X".
A West Side Junior High.
MR,, FRIDAY: Do you have that one, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I have Central. That Central should
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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be stricken.
THE WITNESS: Yes, it should on the junior high reap
where the
THE COURT: Is Dunbar now?
MR. FRIDAY: Well, it should be West Side right
before that, Your Honor. Let me have yours and I am going to
ask him to write.
THE COURT: Now I see West Side.
MR. FRIDAY: All right.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Proceeding on. to the right as you face the exhibit
the next coding is "N-800, W-79”. What is that?
A Dunbar Junior High.
Q And the furthermost school on the right where the
coding is "N-705, W-136"?
A Booker Junior High.
Q That's all the junior highs?
A Yes.
Q All right, now let's gos Mr. Parsons, to Exhibit
No. 15 which is identified Alternate Junior High Areas, and
will you please describe what this exhibit depicts.
A We feel that worthy of study; it requires more
study, of course, than we have put into this at the present
time, but in the process of dividing this district into
compulsory attendance zones, we identified, of course, certain
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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problems that do exist in the di‘ tric.t and one of the areas
where we discovered a problem was the general area around
what was identified in the Parsons Plan as the Beta Complex
Area in general, where there is one all-Negro elementary
school, Stephens Elementary School.
This Stephens Elementary School has had a decreasing enrol linen<
over the past several years, decreasing rather rapidly, in fed
And for further study and future study, we did get the possible
idea that perhaps this school should be closed as an elementary
school and this should be the base for the beginning of a new
junior high school where we are convinced a new junior high
school is needed in this area. We have approximately twenty
classrooms there. We probably do not have enough lana. Certain,
science laboratories, music rooms, a gymnasium and other
facilities would have to be added to the present structure,
but we think it is worthy o£ some study, the possibility of
creating a junior high school zone around the general area of
Stephens Elementary School.
(Whereupon, the map heretofore referred to was
marked Defendant’s Exhibit No. IS for identification.)
Q On this exhibit, so the record will be clear, you
are talking about the school coded --
A "N-215, W-688.51
Q Go ahead. What else is on the exhibit, and I want
to ask you a Question or two about it.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 8 7
I
A Well, carried on the exhibit are two other junior
high schools showing what would occur in those junior high
school zones if this plan were put into effect and we are
talking about Dunbar and Booker as they appear there, Dunbar
being "N-701, W-224"; Booker being "N-715, W-136".
Q So there will be no confusion, in the area outlined
in red, coded "N-701, W-224", there is a yellcw square and a
green square. Which one are you talking about?
A We are talking about the green square.
Q What is the yellow square?
A The yellow square is West Side, the present West
Side Junior High Schcol; and I think it is worthy of seme
comment perhaps that if you will notice the three green dots,
with reasonably equal distribution between the three, among
the three, where if - -
Q Wait a minute. For the record, which three green
dots are you talking about?
A I am talking about the green dots in the "N-215,
W-688" and the green dot in the "N-701,224" and the green
dot in "715 and 136".
Q All right, go ahead.
A You will notice an almost equal distribution in
terms of distance among these three green dots. You will also
notice, if you were to place the yellow dot -- if it were
green, which is West Side Junior High School now, and Dunbar
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DIRECT EXAMINATION Parsons 88
Junior High is also in operation -- that you would have two
junior high schools -- we do have junior high schools within
a very few blocks of each other.
Consequentlyj by converting the Stephens Elementary School
and building additions to that which would require* of course,
money, we could get a better distribution of junior high
school buildings in order to serve junior high school pupils
in a more equitable manner.
Q Not to repeat your testimony, but you have testifies i
as to the grade problems confronting you at the junior high
level.
A Yes.
Q Now, why could you not put this alternative into
effect immediately, specifically September, 1968; and by this
alternative, I mean the one you have just testified about cn
Defendant's Exhibit No. 15?
MR. WALKER: I don't think that he testified that
he couldn't put this alternative into effect. He testified --
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q All right, could you put it into effect immediately:
A It would be most disruptive to do so.
Q Well* doesn't it take some new building?
A Oh, you're talking about --
Q Defendant's Exhibit No. 15.
A It would be impossible* of course, because we
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 89
would have to have a gymnasium, science rooms, music rooms,
et cetera. It would be impossible.
Q This means, if you are going to consider this, you
would have to have some money and community support.
A That's right.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, would you instruct Mr.
Friday not to lead the. witness?
THE COURT; Kell, I didn't think it -was very
material there at the last.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Let me put up now Defendant's Exhibit No. 16
marked "Alternate Elementary Area::" and ask you to describe
Exhibit No. 16.
A These areas that are marked on this map show what
could occur if Stephens Elementary School ’were, in effect,
converted to a junior high school and built of sufficient
sire to absorb the junior high school enrollment in that
generally immediate area leaving West Side Junior High School,
the West Side Junior High School building, out of our junior
high complexes entirely.
And this map shows what would occur if we converted West
Side Junior High School after completely remodeling -- which
would be required, of course **- if we converted West Side
Junior High School to a large central city elementary school,
permitting us to close down certain elementary schools in the
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 90
central city, increase the process of integration in these
schools and changing the elementary school district lines as
originally proposed to comport with the new lines required rn
order to get a reasonable pupil balance if West Side were
converted to an elementary school.
(Whereupon, the map heretofore referred to was
marked Defendant's Exhibit No. 16 for identification.)
Q Is this alternate then contingent upon the other
alternate which is depicted on Defendant’s Exhibit No. 15?
A We could not make an elementary school out of West
Side without first making a junior high school out of Stephens.
Because of the problems of remodeling, there are certain
sequential steps that would have to be taken in this whole
process of making this conversion.
Q Could this be done in September of 1968?
A No, it could not be done in September of 1968.
Q Why could it not?
A Because creating an elementary school in the West
Side building is contingent upon creating a junior high school
in the Stephens building; and we can’t create a junior high
school in the Stephens building until such time as additions
are built and we do not have funds approved nor allocated for
a project of this nature at the present time.
Q If I am going to ask him a couple of if-y
questions and then I’ll be through -- for the purpose of the
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issue before the Court, if you had fund, which would take
community support, would you state to the Court that, i£ you
were going to zoning, these alternatives would be preferable
to the presentation you made originally on Defendant's
Exhibits 12, 13, and 14?
Do you understand my question?
A Yes, sir.
I would not be in a position now to say that this is the
solution to the problems in this particular area. These have
actually arisen in our minds within the last few ’weeks. Con
sequently, they need more study and they need more analysis
in our judgment in terms of pupil enrollment, shifts in
population, in-migration and out-migration, et cetera.
Q But if you were going to zoning, you are testifying
these are necessary considerations, is that right?
A We are not convinced at the present time that,
zoning, as presented in the exhibit number whatever it was, is
the total answer to this problem, so we need additional time
to study this and perhaps several other possibilities that
might present themselves to us.
Q All right. Now, Mr. Parsons --
THE COURT; Are you leaving the maps?
MR. FRIDAY: Sir?
THE COURT: Are you leaving the maps?
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, sir, and I want to formally offer
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 91
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92DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
into evidence, Your Honor, Defendant's Exhibits 12 through 16.
which are the naps.
TUB COURT: All right, they are received.
(Whereupon Defendant’s Exhibits Nos. 12 through 16
previously marked for identification were received in evidence
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, I have just handed you a document
itification at the top Defendant's
Q Now, Mr. P
which is marked for
Exhibit No. 17, which
on the second page th
1 9 6 8 .
Is this a copy q£ a
A V p. «£ C l* W «*» A- *
Q Now, I not.
u u G p i c U . I am advised
Is this correct?
A That is co
Q But otherw
favorable?
A That is co
Q Was the b o
A N o , there •
Q Who was th
A Winslow Dr
Q He was out
dvised that there was one member who abstained.
But otherwise all votes that were cast were
1 in full attendance?
No, there were six members present, one being oul
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A Yes, out o£ the state. Out of the United States,
I believe.
Q Yes.
MR. WALKER: Did you say unanimously adopted?
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q I pointed out one member abstained of the votes
cast. The abstaining member was Mr. Patterson?
A Mr. Patterson, yes.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I am going to offer into
evidence Defendant’s Exhibit No. 17, which is the resolution
just described.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(Whereupon, defendant’s Exhibit No. 17 was marked
for identification, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, a couple more- questions.
Do you have a position as the chief administrative officer of
this district as to whether the zoning plan depicted, exclusive
of the alternates on the exhibits that were just turned in, or
you may include them if you want to, should be placed into
effect in this district in September, 1968?
A No, in my judgment, they should not be placed into
effect in 1968.
Q Will you state to the Court why they should not
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 93
be placed into effect?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - P a r s o n s
94
A I feel that there is going to be some repetition
in this.
Q Well, don't just say where you have testified
and the Court will pick it up.
A Well, we certainly testified concerning this in
connection with the fact that freedom of choice forms are
already out, bade in, and assignments --
Q The disruptive effect?
A The disruptive effect, that is right.
Q In addition to the disruptive effect of that
that this or any change would have on present assignments,
why should you not do it in 1968?
A Well, we think there is another good reason which,
too, will be somewhat repetitious in that we are not -- we are
not convinced, as we said here today, that strict geographical
zoning is the best answer to the problems that do exist in
this community; and we feel that every time we study this
matter, new ideas and new possibilities present themselves
to us; and there is little doubt in our minds but that; given a
specific time to study the effects of zoning and the possible
departures from zoning that might be more effective in terms
of greater desegregation in our schools and implementing our
educational program, could result in having a little additional
time to study.
Q You will notice that the board's resolution
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DIRECT EXAMINATION Parsons 95
requested the Court until December 1, of 1968?
A Yes.
Q Do you feci that this much time is needed
you can come in with a proposal by December 1, 1968?
A Yes, we do.
Q Yes to both of them?
A Yes.
Q All right,
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I have one exhibit that
probably has some information in view of the original offering
that may be beneficial to one or the other and I am assuming
John would not object if I put it in the notice that did go
out April 1, 1968 which does reflect the situation that will
exist next year and I am going to offer it as Exhibit 18.
We will offer this as Defendant's Exhibit No. 18, Your Honor.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(The document heretofore referred to was marked
Defendant's Exhibit 18 for identification and was received in
evidence.)
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, just one second. I have
one matter.
(Discussion off the record)
MR. FRIDAY: That's all we have on direct, Your
Honor. %
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Walker.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 96
MR. WALKER; Your Honor, I would like to reserve
examining this witness, so that we can make our case in a
precise and orderly fashion and call him back for examination
after their whole case has been put on.
THE COURT: Mow many other witnesses do you have,
Mr. Friday?
MR. FRIDAY: I have one staff witness, and I'm
going to put on for very limited purposes the board members,
which examination will go very quickly, Your Honor, depending
entirely upon the cross.
I am trying to confine this, as I have stated, to the issuer
that we agreed to present.
THE COURT: The usual way is fox cross examination
to proceed. I believe we had better go ahead and proceed as
usual, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I think, Mr. Walker, you had better
cross examine now.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, when v:c present our case ,
we would like to reserve the right --
THE COURT: You are not presenting your case. You
are cross examining their witness.
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
I might state to the Court that my cross examination might be
a little more precise if I could have a few minutes.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 9 7
THE COURT: All right
MR. WALKER: Could we have a recess?
THE COURT: Yes, v/e will take a ten minute recess.
Let me know, now.
MR. WALKER: Thank you, Your Honor.
(A short recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Walker, you may proceed.
MR. WALKER: Thank you, Your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, you have stated in your deposition
that you
THE COURT: Please talk a little louder, Mr. Walker
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q You have stated in your deposition that you had
given Mr. Fowler responsibility, perhaps total freedom, to
select and recruit faculty and to assign them, is that true?
A Yes.
Q And that you wanted him to accomplish as much staff
desegregation as he possibly could, is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q Did you ever state to Mr. Fowler what the objective
was that you expected him to achieve as Assistant Superintc :der
in charge o£ personnel?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 98
A The objective was to --
Q Did you ever state to him?
A The objective was to achieve as much as possible
under the process of attrition and encouraging as many transfe
as we could, where Negroes would be teaching in predominantly
white schools and white teachers would be teaching in Negro
schools.
THE COURT: You, still haven't answered his question
Mr. Parsons.
THE WITNESS: Sir?
THE COURT: You still haven't answered his question
THE WITNESS: He will have to repeat the question.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Did you state to him what your objective was?
A Yes, this was the objective.
Q Did you state it to him?
A Yes.
Q All right. Now, in terms of numbers, did you tell
him what your understanding o£ the ultimate goal to be achievec
was?
A In terms of numbers?
Q Yes.
A No.
Q You state further that you had a policy of filling
vacancies and encouraging voluntary transfers.
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CROSS EXAMINATION Parsons 99
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
could go
A
That’s correct.
Did you have a policy which went beyond that?
No, I think not.
Was Mr. Fowler authorized to go beyond that policy?
lie certainly could if he wished to, yes.
Was he specifically authorized by the board that he
beyond that policy of filling vacancies?
I do not recall the board ever giving such authori
zation .
Q 1 see. Do you recall any authorization ever given
to Mr. Fowler in reference to the extent of teacher desegregate
or the amount that could be achieved other than the 1966 board
directive to him to double the amount from what it was --
A There has been no direct directive given to him
subsequent to that action on the part of the board in '66.
Q When, approximately, was that in 1966, Mr. Parsons?
A Mr. Walker, I do not remember the date. If you have
it there, I probably would agree with if, but I do not remembe"
the date.
Q I don't, have it either, but it was before the end
of the school year of --
A I’m sure that it was. Effective for the 1966-67
school year.
Q Prior to the Judge's letter that you received in
August --
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THE COURT: Mr. Walker, I'm having a little trouble
understanding you.
MR. WALKER: I'm sorry.
THE COURT: Now, speak up, because there are other
people here, too, you know.
MR. WALKER: Yes, sir.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Prior to the Judge's letter which was received
THE COURT: What letter?
MR. WALKER: The Judge's.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q -- Judge Gordon Young's letter which was received
subsequent to the filing of our motion to dismiss, what
specific goal had this Board of Directors formulated for
faculty desegregation?
A The goal that had been formulated, if you could
call it a goal, was to achieve as much faculty desegregation
as could possibly he achieved through the process of attrition
and by encouragement of individuals already employed in the
system to transfer.
Q Had this board -- and by "this board", 1 mean
the board that bee:me the majority as of March, 1366 -- ever
made a specific directive which has passed down in this
respect?
A I don't think so, no.
CROSS EXAMINATION - P, rsons
100
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Q It has not?
A Nc. But they did understand that this was the
policy under which we were operating.
Q But they have not made a specific directive?
A No, they have not.
Q Before the Biot ion --
A I*d like -- may I say that there's one exception
to this, and I would assume that you are going to get to it
later on9 but
Q You have already gotten to it. You're talking
about Park View School?
A Yes, I am.
Q Now, let's talk about that. Bid this board
specifically direct by resolution or other action which
appears in the board's minutes that the Park View School be
racially balanced?
A They directed
THE COURT: Did you say "Park View"?
MR. WALKER: Park View School be racially balanced.
THE WITNESS: They directed by action of the board
that Park View School be racially balanced.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q All right.
A Now, whether or not this appears in the minutes,I’m
not sure. I have not gone back to check them.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
101
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CROSS EXAMINATION - P a r s o n s 102
It was not a resolution adopted by the board, I’m sure.
Q I see. There was no vote taken cn it, was there?
A Let me say that there was either a vote taken, or
there was a general consensus expressed.
Q I see. Now, what was the balance that they consids
to be ideal, and that you considered to be ideal?
A Between 25 and 30 per cent of the faculty was to
be Negro and between 70 and 75 per cent white.
Q I see. Did the board ever adopt a racial balance
objective for the rest o£ the schools, besides Park View, in
the system?
A No, they did not.
Q I see. Has the board to this date adopted a
resolution which requires adoption of a racially balanced
faculty by the beginning of 1968-69?
A You mean for actual implementation?
Q Yes.
A No, they have not.
Q I sec. Now, you stated that the policy was one of
filling vacancies in normal attrition and voluntary encourage
meat.
A Yes «,
Q How long did you state that it would take you to
reach racial balance in all of the schools in the system,
using the Park View formula, following that procedure?
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CROSS EXAMINATION Parsons 103
A Mr. Walker, I did not state.
I said it would certainly take several years. I am in no
position, really, to define "several". I actually do not
know.
Q You stated earlier four to five years.
A I may have, and that may be a good definition, of
several.
Q All right, sir. Thank you.
Now, what are the particular problems that you identified
that you have incurred in getting more substantial faculty
desegregation in the historically identified Negro schools?
A What are the problems that we have identified?
Q Yes.
A We have found that if we had 7,000 Negro pupils
attending school in the all-Negro schools as they exist in
Little Rock at the present time, even though the Negro
enrollment in the District may go up, shall I say, five per
cent, this does not mean that we will have to increase our
faculty, necessarily, five per cent in those schools that
are all Negro, because all of the increase in the number of
Negroes of school age in Little Rock -- enough of them move
over into the traditional white schools to where the faculties
serving in the all-Negro schools usually remain fairly static.
We do not have to add any people. In fact, in some of these
schools, we have lost enrollment.
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Ihis? coupled with the fact that Negro teachers seem to
stay in the jobs that they have to a much higher degree than
do white teachers. There is not as much in-migration and out
migration among Negro teachers.
We have, naturally, experienced some difficulty actually
having vacancies in the all-Negro schools. Those that we have
had, in most instances, have been created by us through the
process of transferring Negro teachers from the all-Negro
schools to a predominantly v/hite school in order to make a
vacancy in the all-Negro school that, hopefully, could be
filled with a white teacher.
Q Have you conducted -- have you finished identifying
the problems?
A Yes.
Q Have you conducted a survey of your staff, teaching
staff, to determine the number of Negro teachers who would be
willing to transfer into white situations, predominantly white
situations?
A I do not believe we have. Certainly not recently.
Q When did you do one?'
A Well, I do not recall. It seems to me that we did
make a survey two or three years ago, a questionnaire type of
report, but I do not recall when that was done.
Q Do you recall whether Mr. Hardy Pairet ever made
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
104
such a survey?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - P a r s o n s 105
A I m not aware of the fact, if he did.
Q Do you recall the results of the initial su
A No , bu t we - - I do not recall the specific
but we found many mere Negro teachers willing to transfer to
the traditionally identified white schools than we found whiit
teachers willing to transfer to the all-Negro schools.
Q Would it be a fair statement that that report would
show that at least fifty per cent of the Negroes were willing
to transfer to predominantly white schools?
A I'm not sure that that would be a fair statement.
but you could be right, because you evidentally have looked
at the survey more recently than. I have.
Q All right, sir.
A Now, I haven't looked at it in a long time.
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, you know, there are a
number of people in the courtroom and I am sure they would
like to hear what is going on. Out of common courtesy, let's
try to speak louder, if you please.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I will do my best. I don’t
have a booming voice and it sort of strains me.
THE COURT: I’ll tell you. Move back a little bit,
and that may help. Then if I can hear you, perhaps they can.
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, you stated earlier that approximately ten
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per cent of your white faculty leaves the school system each
year* is that true?
A Approximately correct, yes, sir.
Q Then this means that between eighty and ninety
vacancies are created each year, is that true?
A That is approximately correct.
THE COURT: How many white teachers are there,
approximately?
THE WITNESS: Well, he has it a little bit too
high. I think there are about 7SC -- and we have witnesses
who could give this better than I -- but about 750 white
teachers and about 300 Negro teachers. Something like this.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q But slightly more than ten per cent leave the
system, you've stated, a year.
A Yes.
THE COURT: I didn't hear that last question.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Slightly more than ten per cent leave the system
each year.
A Approximately, correct.
THE COURT: And there are how many Negro teachers?
350?
THE WITNESS: Something like that, yes, sir. Maybe
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 106
300 would be nearer correct.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 107
BY MR. WALKER:
Q So that since 1965, you have had, if your figures
hold true, approximately 300 white teachers to leave the
school system, is that true?
A This probably would be very close to true, yes.
Q I see. And during this period of time, you have
had a small number of Negro teachers leave the system.
A That’s correct, yes.
Q Now, have you used the survey that your staff made
two or three years ago, by your statement, to place Negro
teachers who indicated a willingness to go into white schools
in those schools?
A Not in every instance have we at all.
Q You haven’t?
A No.
Q Then would you say you have done it in most
inslances?
A I doubt seriously that the survey itself has been
used to determine the placement of teachers to any great
degree.
Q All right, sir. Now, you have also stated that
you encouraged white teachers to transfer into predominantly
Negro schools, is that true?
A Yes.
Q How many white teachers from the predominantly
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white schools who had been teaching within the system within
the last three years were you able to encourage under your
policy to leave formerly white school and go into a formerly
Negro school?
A I think the figure is one, but I’m not sure of
that. It may be a little bit more than that.
Q I see,. Isn’t it true that your survey indicated
that there was a larger number of white teachers who would
be willing to go into Negro schools?
A I'm sure that it did. Yes.
Q Why did you not, then, use your survey to identify
white teachers who would be willing to go into predominantly
black schools?
A , I*m sure that the survey was used to some degree
in this regard.
It's one thing to put down on a slip of paper that "I'll be
'willing to do this thing." But then when you call the
individual in and say, "Here is the assignment that we want
you to take. Are you willing to take it?" »- it’s a little
more difficult when the individual is faced with the problem,
if it is a problem, indeed, to say, "Yes, I’m willing to
do it.”
We get a lot of answers, very often, on surveys that do not
materialize when we are up to the point of actually putting
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 1 0 B
it into effect.
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CROSS EXAMINATI0 N P a r s o n s 109
Q I see. Do you know of your own knowledge whether
or not a large number of white teachers have been called upon
for interviews to be placed into predominantly black school::.?
A If you limit it to interviews, I am not sure that
this has been done. I think that our director -- our assistant
superintendent in charge of personnel could better answer this
But I would say in tills connection that the several desegre
gation institutes that have been held in cur system, the
appearances that I have made before faculty groups, large and
small, where this problem has been discussed, I. personally,
on numerous occasions have said that this is a problem that
is facing the Little Rock District and we’re going to have to
look to you to help us solve this problem. Be willing to go
to a school where your race is in a minority. All you have
to do is let us know' you are willing to do this, and rest
assured we will put our shoulder to the wheel to try to work
out a position for you.
Q But you do not know about the actual interviews.
A I do not. I have not personally interviewed these
people..
Q And you do not know whether the survey that was
taken several years ego was, in fact, used to identify people
and then interview them, as a condition precedent to their
being placed --
A I have merely said that I am reasonably sure that
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 110
this survey was of seme value and perhaps it was used, but
it probably was not used extensively.
Q I see. Now, have you transferred any white teachers
to Negro schools against those teachers' will?
A Probably not.
Q Have you transferred any black teachers to formerly
white schools against those teachers' will?
A Not to my knowledge, but with the exception of one
who came to my office and said, "I don't want to do this.”
And I said, ”I£ you would just do it, we need this real badly.
If you would just do it and come back four and one-half
months later and tell me whether or not you like it or not,
and if you say, *1 don't like it,1 we will transfer you back
at the end of four and one-half months.”
She said, "Under these conditions, I'll take your proposition.'
She came back in four and one-half months later and said, "I
just love what I'm doing and I wanted to come back and tell
you,”
That's the only one that I know of.
Q I see. Now, do you know whether any Negro teachers
have left the system rather than be denied freedom of choice
to select whether they would be in a Negro school or a white
school?
A No, I do not know definitely of anyone who has left
t! system.
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CROSS EXAMINATION Parsons
I did receive a letter from one Negro teacher, as I remember
it, who was going to California to teach. And in her letter,
if I remember it correctly, and I'm not sure -- this has been
a couple of years ago -- she said something about the fact
that "since I could net get the position that I wanted in the
Little Rock system, I have applied and been offered a position
in California."
Q I see. Now, have you transferred any of the Negro
teachers to white schools during the summer months?
A Probably have.
THE COURT: What do you mean by that, Mr. Walker?
MR. WALKER: During the summer months?
THE COURT: Do you mean for summer school teaching.
or -■
MR. WALKER: No. No. I'm speaking about the point
at which the transfer took place.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Would it be during the summer months?
A We probably have.
Q Would it be as early as, say, two weeks before
school started?
A That’s entirely possible.
Q Would it be as early as one day before school
started?
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A That might be possible, too.
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CROSS EXAMINATION Parsons .112
THE COURT: Do you mean early or late?
BY MR. WALKER:
Q As early as one day before the school started for
the next term, or as late as one day.
A It depends on the conditions. This may have occurrc:
yes. Maybe we have made some transfers after school started.
I wouldn't be sure, but we probably have.
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Q You probably have.
Now, isn't it true that of the white teachers who have gone
into the formerly Negro schools, Mr. Parsons, almost all of
them, by your records, have been new to the Little Rock
school system.
A Yes, this is true.
Q And isn't it further true that many of them have
been beginning teachers, withe.at any prior teaching experience
A I think it would depend entirely, of course, upon
your definition of "many". Some, surely, have been without
prior teaching experience, but I would say many have had prior
teaching experience.
Q Would Mr. Fowler have that information?
A He probably would, yes.
Q But isn't it true, though, that all of the Negro
teachers that you have transferred to formerly white schools
until this year, all of them have had prior teaching experienc
in the formerly Negro schools, or the all-Negro schools?
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A You said all that we had transferred?
Q Yes.
A Of course, the answer would automatically he yes
to that.
Q I see. All that you have assigned to the formerly
white schools have had previous teaching experience in the
Little Rock schools.
A I could not say that this is a correct statement.
It may be, but I cannot say that.
Q Would you state that most of them, four-fifths of
them, have had prior experience in the Little Rock schools?
A I would say that most of them have, I'm sure that’s
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons n 3
true.
Q Is it true that all of them had -- at least all of
them that transferred from Negro schools to white schools --
had established reputations for being extremely able teachers?
A I would not be sure of this. I would hope that
that would he the case, yes.
Q In your deposition I asked you that same question,
as I recall, without going to the page, and you correct me,
you stated that you are pretty sure that was correct?
A It probably is, I hope so. I surely hope so.
Q Do you have any way of knowing how effective a
job the replacements for those Negro teachers, the white
replacements for those Negro teachers, did during the year
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they took their assignments?
A Well, of course, we have our ways of determining
the effectiveness of any teacher, whether this teacher be
Negro or white. The principal is in charge of the program,
we have supervisors that work out of the central office who
observe teachers and evaluate them in terms of their effective
ness. They would be evaluated in terms of effectiveness exactlv
like other teachers within the system are evaluated.
Q Do you know whether those teachers who replaced
the experienced teachers, the white teachers who replaced
the Negro teachers, were as effective as the Negro teachers?
A I naturally have not examined every evaluation
form that has been submitted by principals in connection with
these individuals, but if they were re-employed in their
positions, I would assume that principals did recommend them
for re-employment. Exactly how the principals graded that
individual, I really have no idea.
Q You haven't conducted a survey yourself?
A No, I haven't.
Q Do you know whether a survey has been made by
any member of your staff?
A I have no idea.
Q Mr. Parsons, I note that the attrition rate of the
white teachers who have been assigned to Negro schools is very
high. Would that be an accurate statement?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 114
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A That is an accurate statement. That is correct.
Q What percentage of the white teachers that you assi;,
to Negro schools remained in those schools for more than two
years?
A A reasonably high percentage, I think there has been
an exhibit introduced that would give that exact percentage.
Q Would you identify that exhibit? Could it be 2?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q Would you state what the percentage is?
A Are you talking about in 19--
Q By year. Let's take after two years of experience
with faculty desegregation, which would be the end of 1966-67.
A In 1966-67, ten percent of the Negro teachers who
had been assigned to predominantly white school resigned while
thirty-six per cent of the white teachers assigned to pre
dominantly Negro schools, or all-Negro schools, resigned, while
in 67-68 four per cent of the Negro teachers resigned while
forty-eight per cent of the white teachers resigned.
Q So it would be a fair statement, would it not, that
at the end of 67-68, half of the white teachers, approximately
A Approximately,
Q who had been formerly assigned to Negroes schools
resigned?
A That is correct.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 115
Q Well, how would you account for this phenomenon?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
A It Is art extremely difficult phenomena, if that
is what it is, to account for, actually. I have no way of
really knowing. There are many factors involved in teacher
resignations, but I think that over a period of four or five
years -- we do not have statistics for that long a period of
time yet -- but I think over a period of four or five years
that if this rate continues to be so much higher among the
white teachers than the Negro teachers, we certainly could
survey and make some discoveries perhaps in this connection.
Q But you made no -- let me ask you another question.
According to these statistics isn’t it true that of the six
white teachers who were initially assigned to predominantly
black schools, eighty-five per cent of them left those schools
at the end of the first year?
A That’s correct.
Q A t the end of the 66-67 school year, thirty-six
per cent left?
A If that is what the report says, yes, sir.
Q You have had three years experience with this, but
you haven’t made a survey to determine the causes and try to
prepare some answers or solutions?
A I personally ha\re not made a survey. This is not to
say our Department of Personnel has not examined very carefully
these reasons. They may have.
Q Have you directed them to do this?
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A No, I haven't.
Q Has the board directed them to?
A No, they haven't.
Q So that that means, doesn't it, that the faculty
situation in the black schools with regard to the white
teachers is rather unstable?
A I would say that it is, yes.
Q But the faculty situation with regards to Negro
teachers at white schools is rather stable?
A Reasonably stable, right.
Q What effect would that have, this instability, hav̂
upon the ability of a principal and the rest of the staff to
implement an effective teaching program for what would have
to be substantially deprived Negro children?
A We subscribe to the concept of stability in any
faculty. Unfortunately, we do not always get to enjoy the
experience of stability, and there are rare occasions where
a little instability -- faculty members who arc leaving, and
new ones coming in -- may generate and give new ideas and
new impetus to the program, but I still go back and say we
subscribe to the basic principle of faculty stability if it
can be achieved.
So I do think that instability in any faculty can -- I will
not say it will -- it can adversely affect an educational
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 117
program.
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Q Isn’t it true that, this year you have not had ten
per cent attrition as you had normally been having?
A This may he true. I know we did not employ quite
one hundred teachers, so it would be less than ten per cent
Q Is it true that in an earlier deposition you stared
that approximately forty-four positions were vacated at the
end of the year, either by resignation or retirement?
A In the total system?
Q Yes.
A, No, sir, I don’t believe I said that in a deposition
Mr. Walker, because there are a lot more than that, and I’ve
always been aware of the fact that there were more vacancies
than that.
Q All right, but the precise figures would be in
someone else’s custody than yours?
A They would. However, I think it is certainly safe
to say ninety or more.
Q Insofar as your staffs are concerned, would you
state the number of teachers, Negro teachers, you had at Hall
High School -- that you had at Hall High School during 1965-
66, 1966-67, 1967-68?
A If you have the figures there, you state them and
1*11 agree with it.
THE COURT: He doesn’t have that before him.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
118
THE WITNESS: I do not have this before me.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
BY MR. WALKER:
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Q But you do know them, don’t you, Mr. Parsons?
A No, I really don’t. I'd be glad to tell you if I
Q For 1965-66, there were none: 1966-67, there was
one; 1967-68, there was one; and your plans are to have two
there for 68-69, is that true?
A If that is what this says, I would agree with that.
Q Other than one person that was assigned there last
year, you have to contract with the second person that you
propose to assign to Hall High School, or has that person
not returned his contract?
A I’m not aware of it.
Q So you don’t know then for a fact whether or not t.h
will be two Negroes at Hall High School next year then?
A Mr. Fowler prepared the report from which you are
quoting these figures, and I accept his report for face value,
and if he says there will be two, I’m sure there will be two.
Q But this means, then, these are your expected
assignments for the next year?
A No, contracts are in and signed.
Q Isn’t it true that you have had a number of persons
enter into contracts with you and fail to hcnoe those contract:
by the beginning of the school term?
A Oh, yes.
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Q Hasn't this happened in a number of instances
when you have had white teachers assigned to Negro schools?
A I'm not aware of it happening to an)' higher degree
there than it has system-wide. Maybe it has, but I'm not aware
of it if it has.
Q Before our motion for further relief was filed,
how many Negro principals did the district employ to supervise
the educational programs in formerly all-white schools?
T;’E COURT: You had better give him a date.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q That would be about the first of August, say the
middle of July. I don't have the precise date before me.
A How many Negro principals?
Q Yes, were assigned to formerly all-white schools?
A There was no Negro principal I believe, assigned
to a formerly all-white school at that time. There was one,
I'm sure, viceprincipal, may have been more, but there was
one viceprincipal, I believe.
Q Was that school formerly an all-white school?
A Yes, No, not a formerly all-white school, no.
Q You refer to Metropolitan?
A Yes, it was created as an desegregated school in
the very beginning.
Q What are your qualifications -- what are the basic
educational qualifications, that one must have before he is
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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assigned to fill a principalship in the school system?
A We require that an individual cither have a Master'
Degree or be close enough to his Master's Degree to permit
to finish it within the first year in which he serves as
principal.
Q Isn't it true that before this last year you had a
policy which was inflexible which required a principal, before
he would be assigned to a school, that he would have a Master’.;
Degree?
A I don't think so.
Q Do you recall at any time during your tenure as
superintendent ever assigning a principal to a school without
that principal having a Master's Degree prior to the time
that you assigned a white principal to the formerly Negro
Rights ell School?
A No, I don't remember. We may have, but I don't
recall.
Q You don’t recall?
A No.
Q Is it true that you did assign such a person to a
Negro school as a principal before that person obtained his
Master’s Degree?
A Yes, this is true.
Q Besides that one white principal in a Negro school,
how many other white principals had you assigned to formerly
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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Negro schools?
A At the time he was assigned?
Q Yes.
A No others, I believe.
Q I see. Well, at the time he was assigned, or at
the time we filed the motion in mid-July.
A Well, one other was assigned subsequent to the
assignment at Rightsell.
Q Was that before our motion was filed, or afterwards
A It was before.
Q Aside from that, do you have viceprincipals in any
o£ your high schools besides Metropolitan School?
A Yes. We have viceprincipal -- or we won't quibble
about terms -- or maybe it's Dean of Boys or Dean of Girls.
Q Okay. Are all those personnel who are in the former
white senior high schools white?
A Yes, that's right.
Q And are all those personnel in your formerly all-
Negrc high schools black?
A Yes.
Q Insofar as your department heads are concerned ;,n
each one of your high schools, are all those persons in Hall
High School white?
A I'iii going to say yes, but I'm not sure, but the;,
probably are.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 172
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 123
Q Central High School?
A Probably yes.
Q Park View School?
A I do not know about Park View at all.
Q The same thing is true. There hadn't been
before the summer of this year, there had not been any desegre
gation of the coaching staff, is that true?
A I believe this is correct.
Q Isn’t, it true that the desegregation, of the
coaching staff you have had, occurred when you placed an
inexperienced white graduate of a Southwest Conference School
at Horace Mann High School?
A You mean the first desegregation of coaching staff?
Q Yes.
A Yes, if you wish to classify him in that manner,
yes.
Q Isn't it further true that at the time you placed
that person in that school that there were available to you
for consideration Negro applications of persons who have
superior academic training in terms of number of years they
had been -- the number of degrees that they have had, and the
number of years teaching experience?
A This may be true. I do not know. I did not personal
examine these applications.
Q Isn't it further true that all the persons who have
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been employed in the last three years to fill coaching
vacancies have been hired on a racial basis, meaning, of
course, they ha\re been hired for vacancies at either South
west, Forest Heights, Hall, assigned there because of their
race?
A No, this is not true.
Q Can you cite a single instance when that did not
happen?
A I would cite every instance when it did not happen.
Q Are you stating then
THE COURT; Now you are quibbling.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Could you state, Mr. Parsons, whether you had
applications from Negro persons which were superior in terms
of academic experience -- academic training and experience
to those white persons you assigned to the vacancies in the
last three or four years in the white schools?
A No, 1 could not state that.
Q You could not state that?
A No.
Q Can you state whether you had any applications
from any Negroes who had Master’s Degrees?
A No, I could not state that.
Q You don't know?
A No, I do not.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
124
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Q Who would know?
A I'm sure the assistant superintendent in charge
of personnel would know.
Q All right, sir. I notice at West Side Junior High
School, you have stated there will be seven Negro faculty
members. What would be the approximate number of faculty
members in the whole school for this next year there?
A I would assume something between thirty-five and
fourty.
Q Isn't it true that approximately forty to forty-
five per cent of the students of that school happen to be
Negro?
A In 1968-69, we expect more than that percentage
to be Negro.
Q That is under your freedom of choice plan?
A Yes.
Q Under your freedom of choice plan, how many Negro
students do you expect to be in the total enrollment?
A Probably some fifty-five per cent.
Q And what percentage of the faculty would be Negro?
A Well, seven as related to, shall we say, thirty-
five, which would be about twenty per cent.
Q I made a mistake. I think Exhibit 3 will how that
four N:gro teachers will be assigned to West Side.
A In that case it would be about eleven per cent.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 126
Q What would be the percentage under your freedom
of choice plan, what would be the number of Negro pupils
whom you would expect to enroll at Central High School and
what would be the number of white pupils?
A I do not have these figures before me, I hope you
realize that. I would judge around 400 Negro pupils at Central
High, probably 1500 whites, but that may not be real close.
THE COURT: Just say that your exhibit number so-
and-so reflects that.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, there are sc many exhibits
that are so difficult to identify that it's pretty difficult
for me to refer to them with facility.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, would you look at that, Mr. Parsons, that
exhibit, and identify it and state the number of Negro Pupils
whom you expect under freedom of choice plan to attend Central
High School for the next school year?
A If I’m interpreting this correctly, and I think I
am, 522 Negro students, 1,487 white students, 74 per cent
white, 26 per cent Negro.
Q What per cent of your faculty during the 67-68
school year at Central High School was Negro? Approximately
five per cent?
A Five per cent, right.
Q And for 68-69, under your freedom of choice plan ,
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you have no proposed increase?
A No proposed increase.
Q Despite the fact that one-fourth of the pupils
happen to be Negro, is that true?
A Yes.
Q You have identified West Side and Central High
School along with several other schools as either being "over-
integrated", or "within danger of being over-integrated". Is
that a fair statement?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 127
A Yes.
Q Whad do you mean by the term "over-integrated"?
A I’m not sure that I know what I mean, and that
the reason in the report that I put it in quotes, Mr. Walker.
If you will check the report, you will find everywhere that I
used the term I put it in quotes, "over-integration" or
"under-integration". It probably means around fifty per cent,
I'm not sure. When a school swings from predominant white to
predominant Negro, maybe we would call that, "over-integration"
I'm not sure, actually.
Q All right.
A But you somethimes have to have some terminology to
say what you want to say.
Q What other schools would you state or identify as
being in danger of being "over-integrated", pursuant to your
freedom of choice plan? Could you give me a list of those schoc
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons J 28
A Well, to use the terminology of "over-integration",
I would say Mitchell Elementary, Centennial Elementary,
probably all of the elementary schools. Of course, we have
already identified, I thin, West Side Junior High School.
Q Would most of those schools that stand in the dange
being "over-integrated" be located within a particular section
of the city: and, if so, would you identify that section of
the city?
A In a general range of what we might call the centra
city, the south -- well, the central city, probably a little
bit to the south of what would be central.
Q Would they also include the eastern part of the
city where you have Parham and Kramer located?
A I'm not sure that it would, because I think we
have not -- we have never looked upon these schools as being
"over-integrated"> actually.
Q Do they stand in danger of being "over-integrated"
by the growth of the community, the influx of Negroes in the
areas and the exodus of whites?
A If this were to happen, why, there could be that,
quote, danger, close quote.
Q Let me ask you whether you still endorse the Parson>
approach as a procedure for desegregating the Little Rock
public schools?
A Are you talking about the high school?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 129
Q Let's talk about the high school for now, yes.
A I still maintain that this would be a good way to
desegregate our high schools, yes.
Q Do you think this would bring about more numerical
pupil desegregation at the high school level for a longer
period of time when the geographic zoning plan that you have
presented to the Court?
A Yes, 1 do.
Q What are the present problems that the district
would experience in implementing the Parsons plan in 1968-69
at the high school level?
A Well, you just couldn't do it because you couldn't
phase out Mann High School and attempt to congregate all of
the high school pupils in Little Rock in three zones, or
three buildings, leaving out Metropolitan High. We just don't
have the space.
Q Isn't it. true, though, Mr. Parsons, that you v/itl
have approximately 4,500 high school pupils in grades nine
through twelve within the system?
A This may be true.
Q Isn't it true that at one time or another you had
approximately 2200 pupils at Central High School?
A That's correct.
Q And isn't it further true that at are time or
another you have had approximately 1500 pupils at Hall High
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CROSS EXAMINATION Parsons 130
School?
A That's correct.
Q And isn't it true that you have had approximate}*/
1500 pupils at one time or another at Horace Mann High Schcc .. ?
A No, that is not correct.
Q What is the largest number of high school pupils
you have had at Horace Mann High School
A I do not know, but it probably has been in the
range of 1200, but I think that it would take care of more
pupils than we have ever had there.
Q Isn't: it true that since that number of 1200 was
reached at Horace Mann High School, you have had additional
construction at Horace Mann, namely, an English building?
A No, we were including this. I say that I think
Horace Mann High School would accommodate in excess of 1200
students, but it would not have accommodated even 1200 without
the wing that was constructed some three or four years ago.
Q The principal would have more accurate figures than
you would have?
A Probably would, yes.
Q What number would you say that school would
accommodate at the optimum?
A At the optimum?
Q Yes.
A Probably .1250 at the optimum.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 131
Q At the maxim;;: ?
A At the maximum, probably 1350, maybe even 1400.
Q All right, so that you would have at least 5,000
spaces in your high schools this year using Horace Mann,
Central and Hall High School?
A Mr. V/a liter, I thought we were talking about the
Parsons Plan, and the Parsons Plan did not use Mann High
School as one of the high schools in this district.
Q I’m asking you a specific question.
A What was it?
Q That those three schools, Horace Mann, Hall High
School, and Central High School, would accommodate approximate l
5,000 students together?
A Almost, and you have loss students in the high
school grades than 5,000 students.
Q .And you have less students in the high schools
grades than 5,000 students?
Your answer is yes?
A Yes.
Q Nô ‘̂fs could not you reasonably exclude Park View as
a high school and substitute in the Parsons Plan Horace Mann
as a high school and assign all of your students on a geograph:,
basis this year?
A My answer to that would have to be I don’t know.
You arc attempting to write a plan for the school system here
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CROSS EXAMINATION Pars ons 132
and
some
but
these are the kinds of things that we would need tc do
research, locate pupils. I could not answer that questio
Q Has that option ever been presented you, Mr. Parse
A The option of --
Q As I just presented to you.
A I think -- you presented it, I believe, at one tin
you presented it along with another plan.
Q Did you ever consider that?
A We considered the entire package that you presence
yes.
Q But you did not isolate the high school package?
A No, because you did not isolate it in your package.
Q Do you recall my ever having talked with you before
that package was presented about that kind of a plan?
A Oh, you probably have. I don't recall for sure,
but you probably have.
Q All right. And your statement is that you haven’t
considered that as an alternative?
A No, I didn't say that we have not considered that
as an alternative. I said that it would take time to study
this. It has not been studied very carefully as an alternative
Q I see. How much time would it take to study that
as an alternative?
A I do not know.
Q Isn’t it true that you h ve all the necessary
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 133
facilities at Horace Mann High School that you have at Hall
High School to conduct a - -
A Basically, we have the same, yes.
Q And isn't it true that Central also is basically
equipped?
A Yes.
Q So that that alternative hasn’t been explored in
terras of being able to implement that kind of a plan this
year?
A It has not been explored in depth.
Q Nov/, Mr. Parsons, under your plan, isn't it true
that all of the --
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I’d like for you to refer
to your map that refers to the high schools.
THE COURT: No. 14?
MR. WALKER: Yes, Your Honor, that's 14. This is
that plan.
THE COURT: You eliminated Park View from your
last one.
MR. WALKER: Yes, I did, Your Honor.
THE COURT: What status does Park View have?
THE WITNESS: Well, there is still construction but
we feel that it will be ready for occupancy on September 1.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q When, Mr. Parsons?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 334
A September 1, or really the day after Labor Day,
at least. We are moving furniture into the building now.
Q All right, now, I notice that under your plan, you
would have Negro pupils who live on the east side of Little
Rock -- that is, the northeast side of Little Rock to be trans
ported either by themselves or by system-provided transportsti:
to Hall High School for education, is that true?
THE COURT: What are we talking about now?
MR. WALKER: We're talking about the Parsons Plan.
THE COURT: Now, you're getting me confused.
MR. WALKER: It's the Parsons Plan, Your Honor.
THE COURT: We're going back to the Parsons Plan,
THE WITNESS: If you're talking about the Parsons
Plan, at no time did I say pupils were to supply their own
transportation, Mr. Walker.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q They would be given freedom of choice, would they
not?
A No, they would not.
Q This year. This year to choose --
THE COURT: Under the Parsons Plan?
BY Mil. WALKER:
Q -- under the Parsons Plan --
A That’s right.
Q -- they would be given freedom of choice for 1961.-61
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 135
to choose to attend either one of the schools?
A That's correct.
0 But they would have to provide their own transpor
tation .
A That's correct. I thought you were talking about
the ultimate implementation of the plan.
Q That's right, and the next year, they would still
he given this opportunity, and then the third year, they would
still be given the opportunity, but it would be at this time
that the system would begin providing transportation for them,
is that true?
A That's correct.
Q So you were going to phase out Horace Mann as a
high school, and have it paired with Metropolitan High School,
is that true?
A That's correct.
Q In the meantime, your plan would have taken effect,
isn't it true, full effect in 1970-71, or 71-72, which was it?
- A I!m not sure, but I think it was 70-71, but there
may have been a little carry-over in 71-72.
Q Now, realistically, Mr. Parsons, could you,expect
the youngsters, the Negro youngsters, who live in this parti
cular area to be able to obtain their own transportation to
Hall High School?
A Very few of them, probably.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons .136
Q Right. And isn’t it true that wouldn't it be
true of most of the Negro youngsters who 1iye on the east si dt
of Little Rock, that they would not be able to provide their
own transportation to Hall High School?
A Most of them, I think this is true.
Q I see. Now, Mr. Parsons, what is there to keep you
and the board from implementing in September a plan whereby
you use only three high schools, to wit: Hall, Central and
Mann, and zone those schools pursuant to the same kind cf
philosophy that was followed in preparing your Exhibit No. 14?
A Mr. Walker, I hesitate to be so repetitious. The
same reasons that have been given before. I'm talking about
the disruption of all the things that have been planned and
are already set up to do this in 1968, and this just seems
to me that we are reinforcing the fact that we need, to study
these various proposals prior to making any firm decision
that they are to be done in September of 1968.
Q Would the plan that you have prepared for the high
schools be equally disruptive?
A The plan that --
Q The plan that you have --
A You're talking about this one now; are you talking
about the Parsons Plan?
Q This particular plan.
THE COURT: On Exhibit 14.
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CROSS EXAMINATION Parsons 137
BY MR. WALKER:
Q On Exhibit 14.
A You mean zoning?
Q Yes, the zoning plan using a school which has never
been used before as a high school, Park View School.
A Yes, it would be equally as disruptive.
Q I see. Would not you get, though, better racial
balance in each one o£ these schools if you were to use Horace
Mann as a high school, Central as a high school, and Hall as
a high school, and have a different kind of zoning lines being
drawn?
A Well, you certainly would. It would depend entirely
of course, on how you drew those lines. But I would assume
they would be drawn so you would achieve greater desegregation
Q Isn't there an alternative readily available to
the school district whereby you could get more Negroes Into
Hall High School?
A You're talking about zoning?
Q Zoning.
A Strip zoning? I mean --
Q You tell me.
THE COURT: Wait a minute. Slow down now.
MR. WALKER: I asked whether or not there was an
alternative readily available to the district whereby they
could get more Negroes into Hall High School.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 138
THE COURT: With the zoning plan.
THE WITNESS: My answer was that --
MR. WALKER: I mean any plan. T was just asking
whether there was an alternative now available to the district
whereby they could get more Negroes into Hall.
THE COURT: Of course, that covers a lot of terri-
t o ry, Mr. Parsons.
THE WITNESS: I realize that, hut I am still will in
to answer by saying that there is no alternative readily
available but what would result in serious and severe disrupt!:
of the program that we have established for next year.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q So that the Parsons Plan wou'd result in severe
and serious disruption next year.
A No, I didn't say that.
Q The Parsons Plan is an alternative whereby you
could got more Negro pupils in the Hall High School this year,
isn't it?
A But the Parsons Plan, you. will recall, was pre
sented way last January, which would have given time to study
and to set the whole structure up over a period, as you pointe
out, 1970-71, and maybe 1971-72, in sequential steps; steps
for the proposal that you have made here today have not. beer,
determined yet, and have not been set u.p in sequential order.
Q All right, isn’t it true, though, that if you were
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CROSS EXAMINATION Parsons 139
to have the strip zoning that you use
THE COURT: What is strip zoning, Mr. Walker?
MR. WALKER: Strip zoning, Your Honor, as Mr.
Parsons refers to it --- well, let me let him refer to it. I
would like for him to define it. He used the term.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Go ahead, Mr. Parsons.
A Strip zoning to me is the creation in Little Rock
q£ rather narrow zones running from east to west that will
encompass a given area west of the city, west of University
Avenue, to east of Main Street.
THE COURT: All the way across. I see.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q It need not, though, Mr. Parsons, isn't it true,
run completely across the city?
A It need not, no. It wouldn't have.
Q Isn't if true, then, that under your plan, the
basic principle of your plan, if it were fc-lowed, you would
have -- you could have east-west zoning which would go along
this area to include a larger number of Negro people and a
larger number o£ persons who are in the lower socio-economic
groups?
A Mr. Walker, I am ready neither to agree nor dis
agree with this statement. I do not have the research or the
information available to me. I am not acquainted with the raci i
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CROSS EXAMINATION Parsons 140
composition of these communities to which you are pointing to
the extent that I could react in an intelligent manner.
Q Mr. Parsons, isn't it true that that is basically
what your plan calls for? Strip zoning?
A If it is -- if you arc --
THE COURT: Let me excuse rue, Mr. Parsons --
you all are carrying me back and forth between the Parsons Plan
and a zoning plan. Which one are we talking about now?
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we are not talking about
this particular zoning plan, I'm asking him whether or not
THE COURT: You said "your plan".
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor, I'll be a little,
more specific.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Isn't it true, Mr. Parsons, that the Parsons Plan
basically calls for strip zoning?
A Yes.
Q New, using that same principle, would not, accor
ding to the research that your staff has done and put into thi:
Parsons Report, such a plan result for this year, using straigh
zoning, east-west strip zoning, as you call it, in greater
desegregation of Hall High School?
A Sure. Yes.
Q All right. Isn't it true that the formula that you
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CROSS EXAMINATION - P a r so n s 141
had figured out would place approximately twenty per cent
of Hall High School, on a strip zoning basis, as being Negro?
A Yes.
Q So that that alternative would present -- would
produce greater racial desegregation and greater balance in
Hall High School this year than the zoning plan that you have
presently prepared?
A Mr. Walker, if you8re talking about the Parsons
Plan and not the plan for using Mann High School, my answer is
yes. But if you8 re talking about your plan, to use Mann High
where you would have to completely redraw the zone lines, I am
in no position to answer you.
Q I'm not talking about my plan, Mr. Parsons. I’m
talking about the basic plan that you have outlined in the
Parsons Report by accelerating the date to the present, for
getting about 1970-71 -- I'm talking about the way you draw
the zone lines
A Yes, sir.
Q So you can draw them to get a better balance at
Hall High School, and you can draw them to get better balance
in Park View High School, isn't that true?
A You want me to answer, but as 1 understand your
question -- better than the zoning plan that we have presented
here in court here today?
Q I’m talking about racial balance now.
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A All right.
Q You can have approximately 20 to 25 per cent of
the Park View student body, using your plan, strip zoning, in
Park View High School this year, couldn't you?
A I'm afraid that I am lost in this. If you will say
do I subscribe to the basic principles of the Parsons Plan,
yes, I do; if that's what you're trying to get me to say, I
do. But if you’re going to redraw the plans for rae, I am in
no position to agree or disagree with you.
Q Mr. Parsons, what I want to know is simply isn’t
it possible for you to redraw those zoning plans in such a way.
even using three high schools -- Park View, Central and Hall - -
in such a way as to have each one of those schools with a mine :
of Negro pupils?
A You might be able to do it, but if you're talking
about in 1968, I still contend that it should not be done with
out serious disruption and chaotic, conditions.
Q But you have also stated that this geographic zoning
plan would cause serious disruption, too, haven't you?
A Yes, I have. And it would.
Q So that any plan that you would .adopt other than
freedom of choice, according to your theory, would cause seriot
disruption.
A For 1968-69, yes, it would.
Q On this point, Mr. Parsons, I notice that Mr. Friday
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 143
asked you about the Court of Appeals' opinion in Clark
Are you aware that that Court has counselled the school
districts in Arkansas to try to work out their problems with
their adversaries, so to speak?
A I would -- I would basically leave the answer to
this type of question to our attorney.
Q All right, then.
Now, are you aware -- I mean, have you been offered
by counsel cooperation in helping you and the board members
come up with a constitutional plan; from time to time since
1965?
A Well, I believe that you did offer and did appear
before the desegregation committee that was created and did
present a plan which you considered to be feasible for the
solution of this problem, yes.
Q I mean beginning back in 1965.
A I do not know that you have ever before presented
a plan to us.
Q That's not the question.
A All right.
Q That cooperation from the plaintiffs has at all
times been offered for the last three years to the district in
helping them to arrive without going to litigation at a con
stitutional plan.
A Oh, I don't question but that you would be willing
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
to cooperate in developing a plan, and I
Q But tills has been communicated to the board on
numerous occasions.
A Yes.
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Q All right. Now, you are aware, are you not, Mr.
Parsons, that there was considerable discussion about locating
Park View High School where it is?
A Oh, yes.
Q And isn't it true that at the time that you decided
there was a need for a new high school that you actually had
vacant classrooms at Horace Mann High School?
A This may be true, probably was, 1 have not checked
the records, but there were probably vacant classrooms at Mann
High at that time.
Q And isn't it true that you had as many as 400 vacant
classrooms at Horace Mann
THE COURT: Wait a minute. 400 classro oms?
MR. WALKER: 400 classroom vacancies, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Spaces for 400?
MR. WALKER: Spac. for 400 is right.
THE WITNESS: I would not agree with that.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q I want to ask you, Mr. Parsons, whether it's true
that in 1967-68, you had 802 pupils at Horace Mann High School !
A If that's what the record reflects, an, that's
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coming, I think, from my report so it's correct, yes.
Q All right, then. Let me then, Mr. Parsons, ask you
if you had at that time 400 vacant classroom spaces at
A That's correct. I thought you had gene back several
years before that, Mr. Walker. I didn't know you were talking
about '67.
Q Mr. Parsons, wasn't Park View started in '67?
A Probably.
Q I see. Now, if a school district is concerned about
having a unitary school district and is determined to so have
such a system, would not it have been better to have located
Park View closer to the central part of the city rather than
having located it way out west where most of the whites live?
A 1 have no way of knowing for sure just exactly
what you mean by unitary school system, in the first place,
but Metropolitan Area Planning Council did submit a rather
comprehensive report to this board in which they recommended
that another senior high school bo built actually within a
couple of blocks of where Park View is built, and it was on th:
basis of this, plus the fact that there was an identified need
for another high school, that the site was selected cn which
Park View was built.
Q Isn't it true that before Park View was built out
in this particular area, you did not have very many citizens
or residents to the ’west of the site where you located?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 145
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A That is true.
Q And isn't it true that Metroplan, or the Planning
Commission, predicted that to the west of Park View will be
expansion in the future?
A I do not recall, but I'm sure that they did, and
there probably will be.
Q Now, you've been here seven years, Mr. Parsons.
Could you state to the Court what the racial composition of
the area immediately surrounding Park View is, basically,
generally, mostly?
A Well, it's predominantly white area, that part
that is developed. But there is a great deal of underdeveloped
land that might be white, might be Negro, might be white and
Negro.
Q Do you know, Mr. Parsons, what the racial ccmpositio
of the area, surrounding Hall High School is?
A Yes, I do.
Q What is it, Mr. Parsons?
A Predominantly white.
Q Do you know what the racial composition of that
school was at the time that site was selected in 1956?
A No, but I understand that there was a great deal
of vacant land at the time that site war. selected in '56. Net
being here, I'm not sure of that.
Q Isn’t it true that this is an upper income area
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 146
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
composed of mostly white?
A Yes.
147
Q Do you kn.cw a single subdivision in the Mail High
School area where you have a single Negro resident?
A Well, I couldn’t identify them, but I do know that
there are three Negro students who arc zoned in, so there must
be some Negro resident or residents in there somewhere.
Q I'm talking about subdivisions now, Mr. Parsons.
THE COURT: He said he didn’t know.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Let me ask it this way: what subdivision do you
live in, Mr. Parsons?
A I live in Leawood Heights.
Q Do you know whether a single Negro family lives
in that subdivision?
A Not a one, to my knowledge.
Q All right, now, do you know whether in the past --
I'm not talking about the future, I’m talking about the past -
whether or not any predominantly Negro settlements have been
started in the western part of the city, using University
Avenue as the dividing line? A predominantly Negro subdivision
or settlement that has been started in the last ten years.
A I know of none.
Q Do you know of any which arc planned?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons .14 8
A No. But I'm in no position of know of any, either.
I want to point that out.
Q I understand.
Now, isn't it reasonable, then, to assume, Mr.
Parsons, that one of the factors that caused this situation to
come about is segregation'in housing?
A What situation now are you talking about?
Q That is to say, where all of your pupils or most
of your pupils who live west of University and their parents
happen to be white.
A Do you mean -- what situation -- you mean, that is
because of segregated housing? I'm confused on your question.
Q Let me re-phrase it.
Isn't it true, isn't it probable, to your knowledge
as Superintendent of Schools in this city, that realtors who
sold houses west of University in subdivisions would not sell
to Negroes prior to 1967-68?
THE COURT: Well, we're getting fir afield.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea. Not being a realtor
and not being involved in this, I wouldn’t know.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q I want to ask you whether or not you still share
the view that you held when you prepared the Parsons Plan,
call your attention to the Parsons Plan, page four:
"Housing patterns in the city are largely segre-
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149
gated. There has been some infiltration by Negroes into
the historically identified white sections. Once this
infiltration begins, the section tends to move rapidly
to all Negro. This has created several pockets of Negro
residents surrounded by white neighborhoods."
A Yes, sir., I subscribe to that because that is the
pattern -- that is the residential pattern in Little Rock.
Q Now, you dor * t know how it got that way, do you?
A No, that’s no concern of mine, not really.
Q All right, then.
A Not as Superintendent of Schools.
Q Mr. Parsons, would you identify all of the schools
which have been constructed in Little Rock since 1956?
A I’m sorry. I couldn’t do that. I’ll do the best
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
I can. though. I’m not sure --
THE COURT: Get along now. Do what you can do,
and don’t try to do what you don’t know, Mr. Parsons.
THE WITNESS: All right.
Each elementary school has been constructed
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, if you would look at
Exhibit 12, Defendant *c
Elementary School, which is located in the southwestern part
of the city. I think there is a notation of 13 white pupils
and 606 Negro pupils.
THE COURT:
sail i. ■ s> Exhibit 12, I’ll carry you to Ish
I see it.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 150
BY MR. WALKER:
Q All right, go ahead.
A The McDermott Elementary School has been constructed
Q That's in the western part of the city on Reservoir
Road, is that true?
A That's correct.
Q And the population in that school is 665 whites
and no Negroes.
A Right. And Terry Elementary.
Q That is the western part of the city, is it?
A That's correct -- well, I'm not sure.
Q All right, Mr. Parsons, I have it here.
A This is McDermott here. (Indicating.) You're
pointing to the wrong one.
Q All right. McDermott has 414 white pupils and
no Negro pupils, and it was constructed since 1956. Go right
ahead.
A All right.
Q Terry had 422 pupils, white pupils, and no Negro
pupils.
A Aoid Gilliam Elementary School has been constructed.
Q And that is 141 Negro pupils within the attendance
area and 18 whites.
A And Park View, of course, that we've talked about.
THE COURT: Now, Park View -- are we talking about
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 151
elementary schools?
MR. WALKER: Schools that have been constructed
since 1956.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q That 859 white and 62 Negro.
A Henderson Junior High.
Q Henderson Junior High, 63 white, 56 Negro?
A No, that's a high school zone. I knew it didn't
look right.
THE COURT: What is Henderson, a junior high?
THE WITNESS: Henderson is a junior high school.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q 808 white and two Negroes. Go right ahead.
A And I'm not sure --
Q How about Western Hills?
A Western Hills, thank you. Western Hills Elementary.
Q 204 white, and no Negro?
A You said since '56?
Q Yes.
A Romine was constructed cfter '56, I believe
Q 100 Negro, and 380 white.
A Yes.
Q What about Bale?
A I don't know. I have thought of it, but I don't
know whether it was constructed prior to '56 or not. It was
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 152
probably constructed after '56, but I’m not sure.
Q What about Williams?
A Both were built when I came to Little Rock in *61,
so I’m really in no position to recall the exact date of
construction.
Q So these are the schools that have been built to
your knowledge since 1956?
A Right.
Q And the schools which are attended predominantly
by white which have been constructed since 1956 have a
minimum number of Negro pupils within the attendance areas?
A That's right.
Q And the ones built for Negro pupils have a minimum
number of white pupils, is that true?
A I would correct that to say the schools that have
been built in some neighborhoods will have a minimum number
of white and a maximum number of Negro. Schools built in
certain other neighborhoods will have a maximum number of whits
and a minimum number of Negro.
Q Isn’t it true all of the schools you have construct
that were initially populated by predominantly white pupil
bodies were started as white schools?
A Mr. Walker, if they were started under the freedom
of choice plan, they were started by the board and by the
superintendent and, hopefully, by this community with the full
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 153
understanding that we were operating under freedom of choice,
which meant that any pupil, regardless of where he resided in
the city, could attend that school if the school were not
overcrowded.
Q But they were started as Negro schools or white
schools, basically? i
A Not really, no.
Q Isn't it true that you populated, or at least
assigned faculty members on the basis of the racial compositio:
of the neighborhood?
A That's largely true, yes.
Q Isn't it true that all the pupils initially assigned
to the schools in the Negro neighborhoods were Negro?
A You must recall we did not assign these pupils.
We placed freedom of choice forms available to them, and if thJ
only people who expressed freedom of choice to attend those
schools were Negroes, then they were assigned there.
Q It is your statement you haven't created any Negro
schools as such since you have been superintendent?
A That's my statement, with the possible exception of
Ish School where we did create a student body originally and
then went back and opened it up for freedom of choice.
Q Was that pursuant to any pressure?
A Yes, it was.
Q The pressure of this Court?
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A Right. Right.
Q Now, you did populate -- assign white teachers in
every case to each one of the schools west of University that
you opened?
A I'm sure we did, yes.
Q All right. Then, Mr. Parsons, would you still agres
with your statement which is on page five of your report that:
"Most of the school buildings in Little Rock were constructed
with the view to perpetuating segregation, rather than iinpleme
ing desegregation. School buildings are located at focal point
in identified communities. This means that a Negro community
has a school so located in relationship to it that it is
sensible, in quotes, for children in that, underlined, communi
to attend that, underlined, school. The same is true for white
communities"?
A I fully agree with that statement, but you must
recall in connection with it that most of the school buildings
in existence in Little Rock at that time, and that are still
in existence for that matter, were built prior to the time the
freedom of choice went into effect. Every building that has
been built subsequent to the adoption of freedom of choice
has been built as a school building open to any student who
wished to enroll.
Q All right, but isn’t it true, Mr. Parsons, that
when you built Ish School and determined that it should have
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 155
a capacity of 500 pupils or so, that you knew that there
were approximately 500 Negro pupils within that area?
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, let me make a point, and
I feel I would be derelict if I didn't. If the Court would
decide what issue all this is directed to, I would object to
further questioning along these lines that do not go directly
to available, feasible alternatives available to this board
for purposes of this hearing, and if we have to try another
case in December, I guess we will try another case.
THE COURT: I know well enough, Mr. Walker, that
school boards build new schools where the people are, where
the students are, and where they are advised by planners --
and they hire them for that purpose -- that the growth of the
city is going to be. That is where they build schools. If it's
a Negro community or white, they build schools where the growt
is going to occur.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, that’s the contention we
are trying to disestablish right now. Our argument is that
they have deliberately, or, in effect, located schools in such
a way as to bring about re-segregation of the community.
THE COURT: How do you propose to make that with
this witness? I realize you made your point thoroughly with
the faculty. I understand that.
MR. WALKER: I think the further statement I have
to make is that this witness knows that these schools v/ere
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 156
located in the midst of communities -- subdivisions, if you
will -- and were planned to accommodate the pupils, the number
of pupils who were expected to live within those subdivisions.
THE COURT: I suppose that is true.
MR. WALKER: And that he knew, or reasonably could
have known, what the racial composition of those communities or
subdivisions would have been.
THE COURT: Or made a good guess. That's the
obvious, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: So that by locating a site in a
particular place since 1956 --
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WALKER: -- that they were locating schools in
a xvay to perpetuate segregation because
THE COURT: You jumped over the fence with me then.
If they knew the pupils were going to be there, they had to
build a school there.
MR. WALKER: My point, however, is that if you built:
a school for 400 pupils in the middle of Leawood, and you know
there were approximately 400 pupils in that school, and you ha[I
a freedom of choice plan, you know that sooner or later that
school is going to be overcrowded.
THE COURT: Where are you going to build that
school, then?
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, our position has to be thajt
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CROSS EXAMINATION - P a rso n s 157
the board could have anticipated that situation would develop
and that you would have overcrowding, just as you had over
crowding at Hall High wchool, and they could have located the
schools more centrally, or they could have had fewer schools.
So, what the board has done, in effect, is given the white
communities, middle class people, an option to have segregation
by fleeing from the central part of the city and going west,
knowing full well that according to census reports in this city
there were only 72 Negro families in 1966-67 that had family
incomes in excess of $10,000.00.
THE COURT: I understand your argument, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor. I would like
to cite to the Court the case of Brewer versus School Board
of the Norfolk, argued January 8, 1968, and decided three days
four days after the Supreme Court decision, May 31, 1968, for
the proposition that it makes no difference whether you have
housing segregation as a result of artificial conditions or
as a result of planning or what have you. The obligation upon
the school district is the same and that is to disestablish
racially identified schools, which are so identified by either
the pupils in attendance or the faculty; and I'll provide
both counsel and the Court a copy of this at the conclusion
of this case. This is a case from the Fourth Circuit, en banc,
five to two.
THE COURT: All right.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 1 58
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, you have stated in your report
that integration is a worthy goal, is that true?
A Yes.
Q Would you say that it's a worthy goal to have
eighteen white pupils in attendance at Gilliam school with
144 Negro pupils?
A I actually do not know. Since we have never really
experienced this, I think it would probably be advantageous
to have a balance other than that, actually.
Q Do you think it’s a worthy goal to have three
Negro students out of 1400 approximately at Hall High School?
A No, I would not classify that as having fully met
a worthy goal.
Q Isn't it true that the economic circumstances of
the people who live in the Hall High School area is substantial,
above that of the average person in the community, or is above
that of the average person in the community?
A I would assume that is true without examining their
bank statements.
Q And isn't it further true that the pupils who live
in the Horace Mann attendance areas, white or black, are the
lower socio-economic classification?
A Yes.
Q So that those white pupils., who would be few in
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
159
number at Horace Mann and the other school:, on the east side,
would not have the same advantage for an education in which
their race was in the majority as the pupils who live in the
Hall High area; is that true under the geographic attendance
area?
A I’d like for you to repeat that, please, just the
question.
THE COURT: He means, does the poor student have
as good an opportunity as the --
THE WITNESS: If that is the question, they may havs
as good an opportunity, but they may not have the background
to take advantage of the opportunity that they have.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q I see. Now, what I'm driving at also, Mr. Parsons,
is whether the white pupils who live in those areas xdiich are
predominantly Negro could be expected, from what you know
about movement in this city of pupils and their parents, if
they had the financial ability to locate in other communities,
other neighborhoods within the city?
A I think there's a possibility that they would do
this, yes.
Q V/ould that be a considerable possibility in your
judgement?
A I think so. That is couched in the terms you couchec
it, if they were financially able to do so.
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Q So that: if they were financially able to do so,
what you would have within a relatively short period of tirr.e
on a zoning basis or zoning plan, is almost all, if not all,
Negro schools in terms of pupils on the east side of Little
Rock, and almost all, if not all, white schools on the west
side of Little Rock, with the situation being as it presently
is .
A I think this is a likelihood, especially in the
areas where the differential between the number of Negroes
and number of white zoned within an area where this differentia
was very great. I think this is a possibility.
Q Have you had any complaints about Hall High School
being reserved for the persons who are members of the school
board who happen to be white?
THE COURT: I don’t --
MR. WALKER: Let me rephrase the question. I think
this is very relevant to something I’m driving at.
THE COURT: Has he had complaints? That is too vague
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Where do all of the white board members live? In
which high school zone do they live?
A I'd have to analyze it one at a time.
Q Let’s take Mr. Jenkins.
A Unfortunately, I don’t know where all of then live.
THE COURT: If you don’t know, say so, and let’s
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 160
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 161
pass to the next question.
MR. FRIDAY: Just say you don't know.
THE COURT: That’s right.
THE WITNESS: All right. Mr. Jenkins lives in
Walton Heights. Mr. Woods lives in Leawood Heights.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Both of those are in the Hall High district?
A Yes. Dr. Barron lives very close to Forest Park
School.
Q This is Hall High School.
A Brown and Meeks and --
Q Meeks and Woods.
A I mentioned Mr. Wood; he lives in Leawood Heights.
Mr. Drummond lives just a few blocks east of Mississippi.
Q That is Hall High area?
A That’s correct. I do not know where the others live.
Q Who have we left out?
A Mr. Meeks and Mr. Brown.
Q You said Mr. Broxvn lives in this area.
A I didn’t say it, but I think he does. I said Mr.
Woods. I know Mr. Brown lives in Leawood Heights, too.
Q What about Mr. Meeks?
A I don't know. I don't know where Mr. Meeks lives.
Q All right. And you have one other member of the
Board who is a Negro, Mr. Patterson.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 162
A Mr. Patterson. I n o t sure just exactly where Mr.
Patterson lives. I'm sure we have his address at the office,
but I don't know where he lives.
Q But you do know that he doesn't live in the Hall
High School District?
A Well, I assume he doesn't if he has a high school
child, because I don't believe he has a child going to Hall
High.
Q All right, sir. You identified, then, on page
twelve of your report, as a major problem facing our schools,
one, "no meaningful integration at Hall". Is that true?
A That's true.
Q Now, under the zoning plan, do you think you will
have meaningful integration, the one that you have proposed?
A No. No. There would be very little integration.
Q Now, do you see the threat of re-segregation as a
major problem affecting the schools?
A Well, certain schools, perhaps.
Q Why would re-segregation present a problem to the
district?
A Because of the migration, perhaps, of families out
of the area in which their children would attend school under
a zoning plan --or even under a freedom of choice plan, for
that matter.
Q Well, what would be the problem?
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A Of re-segregation?
Q Yes. What’s such a problem about re-segregation?
A Maybe there is no problem, but there has always --
it has always seemed to be identified as a problem, in. that
if a school is predominantly white and, as Mitchell did,
shifts to predominantly Negro, and increases in the percentage
of Negroes and decreases in the percentage of whites, it can
become an all-Negro school where it was formerly an all-white
school; so if segregation is a problem, re-segregation would
be a problem.
Q All right. Thank you.
Now, you have identified Mitchell School, then,
as a problem area where this has occurred, is that true?
A Where it has become predominantly Negro, yes.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I call your attention to
the Exhibit No. 12, and address your direction to the south of
Central High School. You will see a school listed as Mitchell
Elementary School, which, under the zoning plan prepared by
the District, would have approximately 292 Negro pupils and
102 white pupils.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Is that -- can you -- ?
A I’m sure that's correct, yes.
Q Now, have you had a problem there with teachers
wanting to transfer from Mitchell’, Mr. Parsons?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 163
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 164
A From Mitchell?
Q Yes.
A Yes, we have.
Q And isn't that because of the fact that those
teachers had difficulties with the new racial composition cf
the student body?
A Yes, I think so.
Q I see. So that If the school had remained mostly
Negro, isn't it a fair conclusion that -- or mostly white,
isn't it a fair consfusion that you would not have had the
dissatisfaction from the teachers that you had?
A I think there is a good possibility that T\?ould be
true. Of course, I'm not positive that it would.
Q And wouldn't it also be true for most of the other
schools that you have had on the east side -- that you would
have less dissatisfaction from the teachers, most of them
being white, and they would be happier if their student bodies
were predominantly white?
A I'd like to hear your question again.
Q Isn't it true that you would have less dissatisfact;
from the white teachers under this plan and the proportional
assignment plan, and the teachers would be happier -- the whits
teachers, now, I'm talking about
A All right.
Q --if you had larger numbers or majority white
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
student bodies in these schools?
165
THE COURT: I think he is indicating the merits of
the Parsons Plan.
THE WITNESS: I think this is partially true. yes.
BY MR. WALKER:- >
Q This is partially true. You would not now hold
to that as a basic premise?
A Not in every instance. In general, I think it's
true, but there, I can see certain exceptions to it on the
part o£ some of the teachers; but, generally, I’d say this
is true.
Q Do you think you would have experienced the difficu!
in getting the faculty desegregation in the Negro schools that
you have experienced if you had had a large number of white
pupils in each school?
A Well, Mr. Walker, then they would no longer have
been Negro schools. I really can't answer your question.
Q I see. So the number of Negro pupils you have in
a particular school determines whether that’s a Negro school
or not.
A Well, you said "in Negro schools", I believe, and
if you had a large number of whites -- well, now, then, when
does it change?
Q I’m asking you. If you had had a context in which
a white teacher was moving into a situation where her race
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CROSS EXAMINATION - P a rso n s 166
would not be in the minority, either as a faculty member, or
being where pupils, white pupils, were in the minority, do
you think you would have had the same difficulty in getting
white teachers to go into, say, schools on the cast side?
A No, I do not think we would have had as much
difficulty as we have experienced, if seventy per cent of each
student body were white and thirty per cent Negro, which is
probably what you are leading up to.
Q Yes.
A No, we probably wouldn’t have had as much difficult/
getting faculty to work there.
Q So that your faculty difficulties are in a large
part resultant from the lack of substantial pupil desegregation
in the Negro schools.
A The white to the Negro?
Q Yes.
A Much of it, I'm sure, is due to that, yes.
Q Now, were you superintendent, Mr. Parsons, when
Rightsell was converted from a white school to a Negro school?
A Not really, but I came the summer --on August 1,
prior to the time that Rightsell xvas officially opened in
September as a Negro school. The decision to do it had been
made.
Q I see. That was in 1961.
A That's correct.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 167
Q I see. So that you shifted all of the white pupils
from that school and assigned them to other schools within
reasonable proximity.
A
Q
faculty.
I'm sure this is true.
And you populated Rightsell with an all-black
A
Q
Right.
I see. Isn't it true that you had several whites
who filed a lawsuit seeking to enjoin you from converting
Rightsell to an all-black school?
A I believe -- I believe that is correct. I think
that was my first appearance as a visitor in the courts.
Q And isn’t it true that they asked that that school
be integrated, but the board took the position that "it is net
called for at this stage of the plan, so we î ill not do it"?
knows.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, we object
THE WITNESS: I do not remember that phase of if.
MR. FRIDAY: -- as he can only state this if he
MR, WALKER: Mr. Parsons was a defendant at that
time, Your Honor. I’m trying to prevent having to put the
record of the whole case in.
THE WITNESS: I do not know,
MR. FRIDAY: He can't state it if he doesn't know.
We're obj ecting.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
168
THE WITNESS: No, I do not know.
THE COURT: We are wasting time, gentlemen.
I want to ask you if you know. If you know, answer
him. If you don't know, say so.
THE WITNESS: I do not know --
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: -- anything about the Rightsell case.
THE COURT: If you can remember that, Mr. Parsons,
we will save a little time.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, would you know whether Rightsell
was at that time located in the midst of a well- integrated
neighborhood?
A I have no idea.
Q You don't know.
A No, sir.
Q Do you know what the composition of that neighbor
hood is now?
A No, sir.
Q You don't. Have you visited Rightsell recently?
A Yes, sir.
Q Why then would you convert it, if you don't know
what the racial composition of the area is, from a white school
to a Negro school?
A I didn't convert it.
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69
Junior High School
Q I see. Now, Mr. Parsons, isn't it true that, sine?
you have been superintendent, you have also closed East Side
_____ ?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was East Side in reasonably good repair at the time
it was closed?
A Very poor repair, actually.
Have you made substantial repairs to it since then?
Not from school funds, no.
Net from, school funds. But you have made repairs
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
Q
A
Q
to it.
A There have been repairs made by the Adult Vocaticna
School, yes.
Q And it is being used now as an Adult Vocational
School?
A Yes.
Q Running both day and night.
A Yes.
Q I see. Now, isn't it true that almost simultaneous!
with the closing o£ East Side, which was about 1963 or '64,
that you opened the Booker Junior High School?
A Yes.
Q And isn't it true that the Negro pupils who v̂ ere in
attendance at the East Side Junior High School were assigned t
Booker Junior High School?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - P a r so n s 170
A Mr. Walker, I do not know.
Q All right. But isn't it true that the white pupils
were assigned by the Board to other schools in the community
than Booker?
A I do not know. We were probably already under freedd
of choice, but l!m not sure of that.
Q You don't know?
A No.
Q How would it be, then -- how could you decide that
you needed a new junior high school in 1963 or ’64 on the
east side of Little Rock when you already had a junior high
school which may have been in reasonably good repair, or at
least capable of being repaired and used for some other
facility?
A There were, Iem sure, sufficient pupils living in
the general area -- if you are talking about Booker -- there
were sufficient pupils living in the general area of the
Booker Junior High School building to justify the construction
of such a building.
Q Didn't you have a number of vacant classrooms at
East Side at the time?
A We may have. Our offices were there, in fact.
Q Your offices were there?
A Yes.
Q Isn't it true, though, that for a whole semester,
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
you transported students way out from Highway 10, the whole
pupil population of Henderson Junior High School, over to East
Side Junior High School for instructional classes?
A Yes, sir, that is correct,
Q And you transported them by bus?
A Right.
Q Provided by the district?
A Right.
Q On your bussing policy, historically, Mr. Parsons,
isn’t it true that until 1966, the school district -- this is
to your knowledge -- the school district operated buses for
the Negro pupils who lived out in an area known as John Barrow
and out that way, so that they could get to either Stephens
Elementary School or Dunbar Junior High School or Horace Mann
High School?
A I’m not sure of the schools, but there were buses -■
a bus or buses operated from this area for the purpose of
bringing these pupils in, yes.
Q All right. And wasn’t this compulsory up to the
time that you began operating under pupil placement?
A I do not know about that, because vie were under
pupil placement when I came to Little Roclc.
Q All right. But buses were provided for Negro pupils
who lived in the remote western parts of the city to attend
elementary, junior high and high schools in the Negro sections
171
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 172
of town.
A Under the freedom of choice plan during the past
few years, yes.
Q So you permitted bussing under freedom of choice fo*
pupils who wanted to have segregated education.
A We did. That's correct.
Q But you have no plans, it is true, to permit bussin ;
at this point to undo that, effect?
A No, we have eliminated all bussing in the district.
Q I see. Now, would you identify, from the factors
that have been made known to you, Hall as a school that has
been built since 1956 and populated since 1956?
A I'm sure this is true, yes, sir.
Q I see. Would you also state whether, in the central
part of this city, any new schools have been built since 1956?
Now, by "central part of the city", let me identify the areas.
I am referring to an area immediately north of Ish
School, 28th Street, up to where the Missouri Pacific Railroad
line runs to the southern part of the city, all of the way up •
the district lines run into University Avenue -- all of the waj
to University Avenue, north to Evergreen, and let me come down
to what would be Eighth Street, and then straight down Eighth
Street east to Broadway, and then Broadway would be the easterr
boundary.
A Now, you were on University Avenue to Evergreen and
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 173
then you came to Eighth, didn’t you?
Q Yes. University Avenue, Eighth Street, Broadway,
and the railroad track, and this little area at the perimeter
of the school district lines.
A I do not know.
Q Hasn't there been a great change in the racial
population of that area?
A I have no idea.
Q Mr. Parsons, how do you justify your statement on
page four of your report, which says that: "Housing patterns
in the city are largely segregated. There have been some
infiltrations by Negroes into the
THE COURT: Now, you have read that to him one time
He is familiar with that.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q You remember that statement. How do you justify
that statement?
A On the basis of what you said, I didn’t even follow
you. Frankly, I didn’t follow your zone lines at all.
Q Then I will give them to you again. I will run
this around --
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I have been on the witness
stand since about 10:00 o'clock this morning, and I'm not as
1 don't feel as capable of answering these questions. There
is such a thing as a person getting tired.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 174
THE COURT: When you get too tired, let me know,
Mr. Parsons. If you are too tired now --
THE WITNESS: I'm too tired.
THE COURT: All right. Let me say this.
We hare belabored the past long enough. From now
on, Mr. Walker, I am going to confine your cross examination
to matters that have occurred since December 15, 1366, the
date of the opinion of the Court of Appeals in Clark. We've
got to have a cut-off here some time. We have spent the after-
noon on history, and we are not going back of this opinion.
MR. WALKER; All right, Your Honor.
I would respectfully, for the record, except.
THE COURT: That's all right.
Now, would you indicate to me where you stand,
about, on the cross examination of Mr. Parsons?
MR. WALKER: Well, Your Honor, there are some other
parts of his report let me state my position right now so
you will know it.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WALKER: I think the Supreme Court decision
stated succinctly that if there are reasonably available
alternatives which would bring about greater desegregation
than freedom of choice, then the board has a heavy responsi
bility to justify why it doesn't use some of those alternative,
than the ones that they propose to use or have been using.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 175
THE COURT: Freedom of choice.
MR. WALKER: Freedom of choice.
THE COURT: That's right.
MR. WALKER: Now, I think the Court has further
stated, that whichever one produced the greatest degree of
desegregation and moved the district furtherest toward the
unitary school system would be the one that the district
would have to
THE COURT: Who said that?
MR. WALKER: I think the Supreme Court indicated
that in its opinion.
THE COURT: I did not think so.
MR. WALKER: All right, sir. That's a legal pro
position and we will get to that later.
THE COURT: That’s right.
MR. WALKER: But we do want to be in a position to
show that there are alternatives available to the district --
THE COURT: You may do so.
MR. WALKER: Now, Mr. Parsons wants a rest, and I
suggest, Your Honor, that we should take maybe a five or ten
minute recess.
THE COURT: No, I think he needs or wants a longer
rest than that.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, until in the morning would
be fine, Your Honor.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 176
MR. WALKER: Now, Your Honor, I will be able to
conclude my examination with him, if I’m able to just study
all of these documents that I have, within a short period
of time when we resume.
THE COURT: Ail right. Would it be possible to use
thirty minutes on another witness, or would that throw your
case out of line?
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, sir. I will put Mr. Fowler on.
THE COURT: All right.
(Discussion off the record.)
(Witness excused)
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Barron 177
Thereupon,
EDNIIT M. BARRON, JR.
having been called as a witness by counsel for defendants, and
having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q State your name, please.
A Edwin M. Barron, Jr.
Q What is your profession?
A Physician.
Q You occupy a position with the Little Rock School
District?
A Yes, sir, I'm president of the Little Rock school
board.
Q
A
Q
gation as
pupil and
A
Q
A
How long have you been on the board, Dr. Barron?
Will be two years in September.
Doctor, do you have an understanding of your obli-
a director of the Little Rock school board concerning
staff desegregation?
Yes, sir.
What is that understanding?
To encompass that which is educationally sound, to
follow that which is constitutionally acceptable, and perform
within the realm of legality the function of my office.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - B arron 178
THE COURT: Doctor, will you please speak a little
louder?
THE WITNESS: To encompass that which is educational
sound, to act in a constitutional manner to run the school
district, assist in running the school, district in a consti
tutional manner, and to perform my duties in a legally respon
sible manner.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Are you familiar with the desegregation plan of
the district prior to the end of May, 1968, with reference to
pupils?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was that plan?
A Freedom of choice plan.
Q You have heard Mr. Parsons describe the plan.
A Yes, sir.
Q Are you familiar with the operations of the district
with reference to staff desegregation?
A Yes, sir.
Q What has the district been doing, or under what
procedures has it been operating?
A At one previous school board meeting, I believe,
that has been identified by Mr. Parsons, the school hoard did
direct to set a number for staff desegregation. This has just
remained as a policy of the board since that date; and since
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Barron 179
that time, the board has encouraged both individually and as
a board the Superintendent of Personnel and the Superintendent
of Schools, Mr. Parsons, to achieve the maximum, practical,
practicable degree of staff desegregation.
Q But you have not directed arbitrary reassignment;
A No, sir.
Q You know what I mean by arbitrary as distinguished
from voluntary.
A Yes, sir.
Q Are you acquainted with the resolution that the be
adopted this morning?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you subscribe to this resolution?
A Yes, sir, I do.
Q Do you subscribe to the point that it would be
disruptive to the school district to change student and pupil
assignment procedures at thi s t it; e?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you feel that you need until December 1 to cornel
up with a permanent solution?
A Yes, sir, I do.
Q Will you be prepared to come up with a permanent
solution by December 1?
A Every effort will be made in that direction, yes,
sir.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 180
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Dr. Barron, how long have you been president of
the board?
A Since March.
Q Who was your successor? (sic.)
A Dr. John Harrel.
Q Would you state whether the board intended before
March, when you became president of the board, to submit to
the electorate the decision whether or not to approve the
Parsons Plan?
A It did.
Q It did?
Did any board members endorse that particular plan
as a method for achieving some different --
A Yes.
Q Who were the board members who endorsed the Parsons
Plan?
A It was endorsed by Dr. John Harrel, by Mrs. Jean
Gordon, by Mr. Winslow Drummond, by Mr. T. E. Patterson, and
by myself.
Q And Patterson, and Barron.
What happened to Dr. Harrel and Mrs. Gordon? Did
they run for re-election at the same time that the Parsons
Plan was submitted to the electorate?
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CROSS EXAMINATION Barron 1S1
A Yes, they did, and they were defeated.
Q By substantial numbers!
A I don't; remember the numbers.
Q I see. All right, do you recall the Oregon Report?
A Yes.
Q What board members endorsed the Oregon Report?
A I recall only one board member that made endorsemen:
of the entire report, Mr. Jim Coates.
Q What board members, to your knowledge, were in
facor of the Oregon Report?
A I don't know.
Q Would it be a fair statement, Dr. Barron, based on
a school board meeting at which Mr. Parsons presented his
opposition, that at that time the only person, the only board
member, who took a position directly opposed to the Oregon
Plan was yourself?
A Repeat that, please.
Q At a school board meeting at which time the
Oregon Plan was discussed by the board, the first time that it
was discussed, at which time Mr. Parsons took a position in
opposition to the Oregon Report, that the only board member who
took a position in opposition to the Oregon Report was yourself:
A No, that's not true.
Q What other board member took a position in oppositicr
to the Oregon Report at that time?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 182
A Your question -- your statement was that I took
opposition to the report, which is not true. I had opposed th
majority of the specific recommendations, and prepared a paper
and gave it to the board, stating just that. I never at any
time said I oy>posed the Oregon Report, per se.
Q You did state you were the only one to take the
position in opposition to most of the items in the Oregon
Report.
A The majority of specific recommendations, and then
stated the recommendations.
Q But you were the only one to take that position.
A That's correct.
Q 1 see. And Mr. Coates and Mr. Bass were on the
board at that time, isn't that true?
A That's right.
Q And isn't it true that when the Oregon Plan was
more or less submitted to the voters in 1967, March, that the
Oregon Plan was defeated by the voters?
A It — no.
Q That the recommendations that were made with regard
to financing, the necessary financing, contained in the Oregon
Report, was defeated?
A No.
Q What happened, Doctor?
A It was never voted on by the public.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 183
Q What happened to Mr. Coates who was a proponent
of the Oregon Plan? Did he submit himself in March to the
electorate for re-election?
A Yes, and he was defeated.
Q The same is true of Mr. Bass, is that true?
A No, that's incorrect.
Q Mr. Bass was not defeated?
A Mr. Bass was defeated, but he did not run on the
basis of the Oregon Report, as I recall.
Q He was generally identified with it, though.
THE COURT: Now, let's don't —
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Is it true that of the persons who have had to
come before the electorate who have taker a position for a
plan to accelerate desegregation in Little Rock have been
deft afced?
A That’s incorrect.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - B arron 184
Q That's incorrect?
A Yes.
Q All of them who have taken a position who have
come before the electorate have been defeated?
A No.
Q Name one who has taken a position in support of
either the Parsons Plan or the Oregon Plan since -- who is --
A You didn't say Parsons or Oregon Plan, you said
anything that would increase integration.
Q Right, and I'm sorry, I apologize.
Do you know whether either board member has taken
a position in favor of the Parsons Plan or the Oregon Plan
who has not come up for re-election is still on the board?
A Those that have not come up for re-election are
not still on the board favored the Parsons or the Oregon
plan.
MR. WALKER: What I'm trying to drive at, Your
Honor, I guess we could do it by stipulation, Mr. Friday, that
the persons who supported Mr. Parsons' plan who have come up
for election, or who came up for election in the last election
were defeated by the electorate.
MR. FRIDAY: I'll stipulate who came up and who
was defeated, Your Honor.
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THE WITNESS: I don't know that it was on the basis
of the Parsons or the Oregon plan --
MR. WALKER: I ’m not asking you whether it was on
the basis of --
THE WITNESS: — whether a person wins or loses an
election.
MR. WALKER: I'rn not asking you whether it was on
that basis, I'm asking whether those people were defeated.
THE COURT: What people?
MR. WALKER: The persons who supported the Parsons
plan specifically.
THE WITNESS: That's correct.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q And Mr. Coates who supported the Oregon plan?
A That's only partly correct, Mr. Coates reversed
his stand on the Oregon plan before the election, and stated
that he was in favor of the neighborhood school system.
Q All right,sir. Mr, Coates was defeated?
A That's correct, I cannot say that he really en
compassed the Oregon plan at the time of the election.
Q He was the person most identified on ten board—
THE COURT: Now, that's enough of that, I've heard
all I want to hear about that.
BY MR. WALKER:
CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 185
Q All right then. Nov;, Dr. Barron, fe board has had a
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CROSS EXAMINATION - B arron 186
policy since you have been on the board, of filling faculty
vacancies on a -- the faculty desegregation plan lias been one
of filling vacancies on a voluntary assignment, is that true?
A That's correct.
Q I see. Do you have an opinion as to how long it
would take to achieve racial balance in the faculty according
to the formula tha t the Judge suggested by that procedure?
A Precise racial balance can never be achieved.
Q Approximately?
A You can't half or third people.
Q I mean approximately?
A There would be no way that I could say that.
Q Have you directed your administrative staff to
bring about racial balance at any time in the past prior to
the Judge's letter?
A No.
Q Has the board adopted any resolution since you have
been president of the board which deals with faculty desegrega
tion, accelerating the rate of faculty desegregation?
A Not in resolutions, but I think you misunderstand
the purpose of the school boaxxi. WE have a superintendent Oj.
personnel a .1 a superintendent of school district thcit are
responsible for certain areas. This has carried forth since
the previous direction from the board, and the board has
presently constituted — did understand that this was the
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CROSS EXAMINATION - B arron 137
desire of the board to continue in staff integration, and
staff integration has been furthered.
Q But you haven't given the administrative staff any
specific directions as did the previous board, for instance,
to double or triple the degree of desegregation in the faculty }
A No.
Q What before the Judge's letter did you perceive
as the goal to be achieved that you were required to achieve
by the Court of Appeals?
A Repeat that please?
Q What was the faculty goal that you as the president
of the board, or the board if you know, had for ultimate
faculty desegregation, I mean in terms of numbers or percent
ages —
A I was not aware there had been a percentage basis
of any type put on this but to proceed with a meaningful
desegregation of the faculty, which we have been attempting
to do in considering the human rights and the human dignity
of the teachers themselves.
Q Well, that is a term I don't understand, would you
explain that, you say "human rights of the teachers"?
A When we speak of the school system or plan or
we speak of numbers, it is easy to forget that these are
people, and we must consider the feeling of people, ana how
these people react in given situations, and this is precisely
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CROSS EXAMINATION B arron 1.88
what I mean by considering the individual.
Q The human rights of the teachers. Dr. uarron, wnea
you hire a teacher in Little Rock do you hire that person for
a particular school or for the system?
A We hire it for a particular school. Mr. Parsons
pointed this cut very clearly, that they are hired for a
particular position.
Q They are hired for a particular position?
A That's correct.
q They are not hired to teach in the system gener
ally?
A That is correct.
q Are you familiar with the policy handbook, Dr.
Barron?
A Yes, sir.
Q what does your school policy with regard to
transfers say?
A The school policy is presently 120 days. Mr.
Parsons did point on this 120 days would be required, we are
now in professional negotiations agreement require 90 days
on school transfers except in unusual and in warranting cir
cumstances.
q Are you familiar with the handbook of policies?
A Yes, sir.
Q CAn you state to me — I show you this handbook
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CROSS EXAMINATION - B arron 139
of administrative policies for the Little Rock school distric
and ask you to identify it?
A Yes, I can identify that, the cover.
Q Do you have any reason to believe this is not
an accurate — -
A No.
MR. WALKER: I don't care to introduce this at
this time, Your Honor, we would like to present it when we
present our case.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Doctor, would you take that administrative manual
and refer to the specific section in there whereby you state
that a teacher cannot be assigned until 120 days have passed,
the one you just stated ?
MR. WALKER: If Mr. Friday wants to help him, Your
Honor, I would be happy to —
MR. FRIDAY: Let me see it.
MR. WALKER: Thsi is the one I obtained from the
district.
THE COURT: I got the impression this morning
that that was part of current negotiations with the teachers.
MR. WALKER: That is correct. Well, Your Honor,
I think the position that has been taken thus far is that
they have always had this policy whereby teachers would be
assigned or given notice of their assignment at the close of
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CROSS EXAMINATION - B arron 190
the school year just completed , near the time they get their
contract for the new year, the coming year, and this would be
approximately 90 days between the time they get the contract
and the time that the new school year begins. I think this
is the. position the Teachers Association has taken in inter
vention .
MR. FRIDAY: Mr. Parsons testified, if he mentions
it I have forgotten now whether in this discussion, I have
talked to him so much, 120 days arrived at by this language
because his testimony was contracts offered in April or May
and this refers to the offering time, and if you compute it
from that time then it does come out making 120 days.
THE COURT: I don't expect a board member to be
able to lay his hands on a regulation.
MR. WALKER: If it would help, Your Honor, this
is on page 46, transfers?
THE WITNESS: Correct.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q I ask you to read the first sentence of that pro
vision, would you please, just the first sentence?
A "All teachers, principals, and other staff
members subjected to transfer at the direction
of the superintendent of schools."
Q Do you understand that then to mean that a teacher
hired to work in a particular school or in the district?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - B arron 191
A I'm going on the basis we have been advised by
counsel in professional negotiations with the teachers.
Q All right, you are not relying on this policy?
A Yes, I am relying on that policy but as it is
interpreted to me by our counsel.
Q I see, but coulu you cite the particular
THE COURT: he has answered you.
MR. WALKER: I will introduce the entire policy
book into the record at the appropriate time.
BY MR. WALKER:
q Now, have you negotiated a contract with the
Teachers Association to the effect, have you already negotia
ted a contract now?
A Not a contract, Professional Association agreement
Q Have you negotiated an agreement?
A We have,
Q Which has been signed?
A We have.
Q Which says that a teacher will be entitled to 90
days notice before a transfer is made?
A With stipulation , that's correct. This is from
previous negotiations wherein negotiations at this time
nothing has been signed with the present negotiations.
q You say previous negotiations established --
A There was a negotiation that was put in effect a
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 192
year ago, but we are under current renegotiations anu rewritirs
the professional negotiations agreement. I can't recall pre
cisely the wording of the negotiations from a year ago.
Q Was that reduced to writing?
A Sir?
Q Was that agreement reduced to wr iting?
A The agreement we signed a year ago was in writing,
that is correct.
Q It did contain a 90 day provision?
A I'm not certain.
Q You don 11 know?
A No.
MR. WALKER: Mr. Friday, at this time I would like
to request that for this witness further examination of this
wit ness, maybe it could be done with someone else, I have a
copy of the agreement between the Teachers Association and
the district. I need not continue with him on that point.
MR. FRIDAY: Dr. Barron cannot be here tomorrow.
MR. WALKER: Maybe some other witness could be --
THE COURT: If I understand you correctly, the
witness states, or has testified, there was an agreement, a
signed contract or agreement, in effect last year; that one
is currently being renegotiated for this coming year, but as
I understand it, has not yet been executed?
THE WITNESS: Hi at is correct.
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THE COURT: So the request is for the one last
year?
MR. WALKSR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: One of the staff men can bring that.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Did the Board of Directors adopt a resolution, or
take other specific action or authorize the superintendent
to take action, whereby the Classroom Teachers Organization,
as an organization, would be asked to intervene in this action?
A No.
Q It did not?
A No.
Q You did not authorize the superintendent to ask
them to intervene in this action?
A No.
Q Do you know whether the superintendent asked them
to intervene in this action?
A No.
Q Do you know whether the superintendent asked the
teachers to take a position on the subject of faculty deseg
regation?
A No.
Q Do you know whether he asked the principal to take
a position on the issue of faculty desegregation?
CROSS EXAMINATION - B arron 193
A No.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - B arron 194
U Did you authorize such?
A No
Tlih COURT: How many "Nos" do you want now, Nr.
Walker?
BY MR. WALKER:
y Dr. Barron, in your judgment as board president,
in terms of numbers of Negro pupils being assigned to formerly
white schools and vice versa, would you state whether it is
the board's belief that the Parsons plan, basic plan, for
getting now some of the little problems with it, would have
brought about greater racial balance in the schools of the
district with which it concerns itself?
A Yes, it would have brought about greater racial
balance if --
Q In other words, the school district had that optior
available to it as early as March of this currect school year,
is that true?
A That's correct.
Q I see. Now, would the Oregon plan have brought
about greater racial balance in every respect than the current
geographic plan or freedom of choice?
A I don't know.
Q Are you familiar with the Oregon plan?
A Yes.
Q You don't know whether it would have brought about
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 195
greater racial balance in each of the schools?
I\ h o c
Q You ao not?
A In some of the schools it would, but not all.
Q In most of the schools I'm talking about, there
may have been one or two exceptions.
A I would assume yes.
Q You would. Would the plan tnat 1 prepared and sum
mit ted to the board at the meeting at which time you requester
plans have brought about greater numerical racial balance in
each one of the schools?
A Which plan?
Q The one that I presented to the Board of Director.-.
A Is this the one you were talking about when you
called me from hew York a couple of weeks ago?
q I don't know which --
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, let me tell you, at 4:29
v?e are goingto adjourn for the day and this witness* is going
to be excused, and if you have any priority matters you better
take them up.
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
I take it that I can inquire of some of the other
board members whose schedules will permit, Your honor, the
vice-president will ue able — I will dispense with the
witness at this time so that we can adjourn early.
(Wi t n e s s excused.)
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morning.
THE COURT: W'e will adjourn until 9:30 in the
(Whereupon, at 4:30 o'clock, p.m., the abve-entitl
proceedings were recessed, to reconvene at 9:30 o'clock, a.in.,
the morning of the following day, August 16, 1968.)
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
- - -
DELORES CLARA, et al, :
Plaintiffs, ;
No. LR-64-C-155
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, et al,
Defendants.
x
- - T R I A L --
BE IT REKEMBE11ED, That the above-entitled matter
continued for trial before The Honorable GORDON E. YOUNG, Unite
States District Judge, commencing at 9:30 o’clock, a.m., on
Friday, August 16, 1968.
APPEARANCES:
JOHN W. WALKER, Esq., 1820 West 13th Street, Little
Rock, Arkansas, appearing for the plaintiffs.
HERSCHEL K. FRIDAY, Esq., and JOE BELL, Esq., of
Smith, Williams, Friday 6: Bowen, Boyle Building,
Little Rock, Arkansas, appearing for the
defendants.
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THE WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROS
Daniel H. Woods 201 203 -- --
T. E. Patterson 229 ' 234 -- ~~
W i11iam H. Fowler 242 249 274 276
William R. Meeks, Jr. 27 9 283
AFTERNOON SESSION - 298
William R. Meeks, Jr. (Resumed) 298 303 303
Floyd W. Parsons (Recalled) 305 337 338
Floyd W. Parsons (Further) 341 342
Floyd W. Parsons
(Adverse Witness) 347 — --
Dr. Keith GoIdhammer 348 •» m m. «a»
EXHIBITS
For Identification In Evic n:
Defendants:
Exhibit No. 19 282 282
Plaintiffs:
Exhibit No. 1 353 353
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ZB:5i£ E E D i n g s
THE COURT: There was some short: reference in the
record yesterday that leads me to feel fairly sure there is a
difference in the interpretation of the law by me and Mr.
Walker.
I think it would be helpful for the record, and
particularly for the Court of Appeals, for me to put in the
record as concise and clear a manner as I can what I conceive
the law to be. This will allow counsel for both sides to
present the issues squarely in the Court of Appeals.
In Gould, as well as the other two cases, the
Supreme Court of the United States said that the board must be
required to formulate a new plan, and in light of other courses
which appear open to the board, such as zoning, fashion steps
which promise realistically to convert promptly to a system
without a white school and a Negro school, but just schools.
As I see it, the law, as interpreted by the Supreme
Court, requires that the dual biracial school system in Little
Rock be abolished and a unitary system established. This affec
both the assignment of pupils and the faculty.
There may be several constitutional ways in which
this may be accomplished: geographic attendance zones, pairing
of schools, feeder systems into junior high and high schools, o
combinations of these methods, and there may be other methods
which haven't occurred t:o me.
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200
One or more of these methods may produce more
desegregation than other methods; but, as I see the problem
from the legal standpoint, if there are several constitutional
approaches to achieving a unitary school system, quote, not
colored schools, not white schools, but just plain schools,
close quote, the school board is free to use its own judgment
as to which of those methods it shall adopt, and without being
required to choose a constitutional method which would produce
more desegregation for that reason alone.
It is not for me as a judge, nor, of course, for
plaintiffs' counsel to dictate to the board which of several
permissible methods shall be adopted. Within those bounds of
permissibility, the choice is the board's.
I make this statement because it appears that the
theory of plaintiffs' counsel is otherwise, and I want to make
this statement in the record as concisely, as meaningfully as
I can, so that the Court of Appeals may have the opportunity to
pass on this particular issue. If I am wrong in my statement
as to the board's duties, the Court of Appeals can tell me so.
I make that this morning because I want it in the
record, as I said, in a concise fashion; and it can be easily
located again because it is in the beginning of the second day1
session.
Now, leaving that, we did not progress as much as I
had hoped for yesterday. I want to finish this case today, anc
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Woods 201
I think actually, as far as the facts are concerned, the record
is about as complete as it is going to be, although certain
points may be amplified from other witnesses. But for all
practical purposes, I think the factual situation is nearly
complete.
I do not intend to permit counsel to cross examine
at the length that we had yesterday, and my attitude toward
stopping it is going to be apparent. Mr. Walker, I am not
unsympathetic with your position, but the judges of the
Court of Appeals are very able and intelligent men. I don't
consider myself exactly a dullard, and after you tell me
something two or three tiroes, I think 1 have gotten the message
Nor-/, with that admonition, I think we can proceed.
MR. FRIDAY: Call Mr. Woods.
Thereupon,
DANIEL H. WOODS
having been called as a witness on behalf of the defendants,
and having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified
as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q State your name, please.
A Daniel II. Woods.
Q What is your business, or occupation?
A I'm Industrial Relations Manager, U. S . Time
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Woods 20.'?
Corporation, here in Little Rock.
Q Just to expedite, you ore a graduate of law school,
are you not, Mr. Woods?
A Yes, sir, a graduate of the University.
Q But you are not a practicing lawyer.
A Ho, sir, I have never practiced law.
THE COURT: Lead him through all the preliminary
questions.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q What's your connection with the Little Rock School
District?
A I'm a member o£ the Little Rock Board of Education.
Q You have before you a copy of a resolution that was
introduced in evidence as Defendant's Exhibit No. 17. Do you
see it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you subscribe to the position of the board taken
in that resolution?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right. Now, one point I want to clarify: do
you have any position with the board with reference to the
negotiations with the teacher organisation?
A Yes, sir, I am chairman of the subcommittee, or a
committee I guess I should say, of the school board to conduct-
negotiations with the Classroom Teachers Association.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Woods 203
Q The only point on this, Your Honor, is because it
came up in Dr. Barron's testimony. Dr. Barron testified there:
had been a previous agreement pertaining to the precise point
in issue, if it is in issue, the ninety days.
Will you state whether or not there had been a
previous agreement, and then, concisely, the present status of
negotiations concerning that in order to clarify Dr. Barron's
testimony.
A Ail right, sir.
The ninety“day provision is in the current negotia
tions, which has not been completed. This is a point that prin
to receipt of Judge Young's letter, vie were in basic agreement
on, but we have not completed our entire negotiations agreement
nor has it gone to the board. This is approved only by a
committee of the board for submission to the board.
Q Would it be fair to say you had agreed on this point
in principle, but cut: off everything when we got to this
litigation?
A In principle we had agreed to the ninety days, but
I had advised the Classroom Teachers Association, after receipt
of Judge Young's letter, that we were no longer free to talk
about this ninety-day clause, due to the litigation.
MR. FRIDAY: That is all I have.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
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CROSS EXAMINATION-Wood s 204
Q Mr. Woods, is it your position that you have had
this negotiation agreement with the teachers for more than thi:
year?
THE COURT: It's not his position anything. Just
ask him about the facts, Mr. Walker.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Do you have a negotiations agreement negotiated
prior to the current year?
A Yes, we have a negotiated agreement prior to this
year.
Q And it is this --
MR. FRIDAY: You still want to see a copy?
MR, WALKER: I want a copy before we go further,
Your Honor.
MR. FRIDAY: All right. Here you are, Mr. Walker.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Is this the agreement, Mr. Woods, that contains the
ninety-day pro vision?
A No, sir, the agreement containing the ninety-day
provision has not been culminated. It#s still under negotlatic
Q So that you have never had a ninety-day agreement
with the teachers?
A No, sir. The confusion has arisen because the
contract we have with the teachers is in the teacher contract
and not in the professional negotiations agreement. By
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 205
reference in each of our teacher's contract, the policies --
the administrative policies of the hoard are incorporated by
reference in each individual contract so, therefore, the 120
days, roughly, is incorporated.
Q But there is no specific provision that has been
negotiated to the effect that all of the district's teachers
will be given 120 days notice, or ninety days notice, or any
particular notice --
A I would say --
Q -- of their school assignment prior to the beginning
of the school year?
A I would say that it is included in the negotiations
with the teachers, because it's in each of the teacher contract
by reference.
Q Are you sure of that?
HR. WALKER: Do you have a copy of that contract,
Mr.Friday?
THE WITNESS: You will see under "Board Policies"
in the teacher contracts, current addition of administrative
policies of the Little Rock School District, which is included
in the teacher contract; and that is in each contract that each
teacher has. So, this incorporates the board policy that was
discussed yesterday by Mr. Parsons.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, in view of the fact that
the policy handbook will be presented later into evidence by tic
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 206
I would like to defer introducing this as an exhibit.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WALKER: In order to dispense with this witness,
since I had planned to call him as one of mine, Your Honor, I
would like to introduce his deposition --
THE COURT: No, we are not going to introduce his
deposition; he is here.
MR. WALKER: Well, Your Honor, I have a number of
questions I would like to ask him.
THE COURT: You may try.
MR. WALKER: This is for the purpose of expediting,
rather than --
THE COURT: It won't expedite, because I don't want
to take the time to read that deposition, and I knew the Court
of Appeals is not going to read it.
MR. WALKER: Meed I go back over the board's policy.
Your Honor, regarding desegregation?
THE COURT: No, sir.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q What area do you live in, Mr. Woods?
A I live in Leawood.
Q What high school attendance area is that?
A That is in the Hall attendance area.
THE COURT: Haven't we already established the area;
of the board members?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 207
MR. WALKER: All except Mr. /oods, Your Honor. Mr.
Parsons was not certain about Mr. Woods.
THE COURT: He lives in the Hall High area.
Don't you, Mr. Woods?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Do you have children who attend school?
A Yes, sir.
Q What schools do they attend?
A Brady Elementary and Henderson Junior High.
Q I see. Have they ever attended a school in which
they were in a racial minority, or the teachers in that school
were a racial minority?
A Both of my children have had minority teachers, or t
minority teacher; but if I understand your question, have they
been in a school in which they -~
Q In which either they or their teachers were in the
minority.
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, there have been no schools
in which whites were in the minority in the Little Rock school
system which white pupils attend.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q In your deposition, Mr. Woods, you stated that you
viewed the Supreme Court decisions as requiring you to eliminat
the dual system.
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CROSS EXAMINATION 2 OS
A Yes, sir.
Q Is it your view that the attendance area plan that
you have prepared would eliminate the dual system?
A Mr. Walker, of course, this is — this attendance
area is under study right now. Yes, I believe this would bo a
way to eliminate it. I'm not entirely sure that we haven't —
that we are in a dual school situation at the moment.
THE COURT: I'm sure you are not. We can leave that:
and go on. Little Rock is not -- is in the dual school area.
MR. WALKER: Is?
THE COURT: I'm sorry, I was confused in a manner o
speaking.
Little Rock still has a dual school system, both as
to attendance and faculty, in view of the Supreme Court's
decision on freedom of choice.
BY 1®. WALKER:
Q How do you -- what is the goal that you see insofar
as a unitary school system is concerned?
A Well, a unitary school system -- I believe I told
you in the deposition, using about the same words the Judge
just used is a system whore you have schools without regard
to race.
Q Do you have a unitary school system if all of the
schools which historically have been Negro and those schools wh
have historically been white remain that way, with a handful
- Woods
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods
of Negro pupils In the white schools and a handful of white
pupils in the Negro schools?
A I would have to stand on icy definition of schools,
regardless of what the historical basis of the school is. If
the Little Rock School District has schools, this is without
regard to race, this would not be a dual school system.
Q You are an attorney, too, Mr. /oods?
A I'm not a practicing attorney.
Q Do you see the neighborhood school policy, as
reflected by your attendance area plan, as putting the Little
Rock School District in a situation where you have de facto
segregation because of the housing pattern?
A Would you repeat the question, please.
MR. WALKER: Would the reporter please read that ba
(The reporter read the question as
requested.)
THE WITNESS: Mr. Walker -- excuse me.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I don't want to get up and
down. Most of this is speculation and I think it would call fc
a speculative or an opinion statement. I don't mind the witnes
answering, but I think it is going beyond the issues.
THE COURT: I think the maps introduced yesterday
clearly show that under the zoning system -- I won't say proper
but suggested as a possibility indicate how many Negro and
how many colored would attend each school under that plan, and
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 2 1 0
this adds nothing to it.
Let's pass on to another subject.
MR. WALKER: I would also request that the witness
not ask his counsel to object for him, and this happened in
that instance.
THE WITNESS: If I could make a statement --
MR. WALKER: I'm going on to my question.
THE WITNESS: 1 was not looking. My counsel was
getting ready to stand up, so I paused to see if he was going
to object. I was not waiting for him to object.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q How long have you been in the city, Mr. Woods?
A Fifteen and a half years.
Q You are aware of the living patterns of people in
this city, are you not?
A Basically.
Q What are those living patterns, Mr. Woods?
A Well, I think we have exhibits which will show the
living patterns of students already introduced. I think the
census tracts will show that we have Negro families and white
families in almost, if not all, census tracts in the city.
Q Are you aware of the fact that in Little Rock, as
we have alleged in the motion for further relief, that most of
the neighborhoods west of University Avenue in Little Rock are
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 211
racially based, more or less? For instance, Pleasant Valley
is all white.
A When you say "racially based", I would agree that y
would have your areas west of University, if that is where you
are drawing the line, would be mostly white, yes.
Q Would you also state whether the living patterns of
the people are that people tend to live with their own race?
A Well, that is a conclusion.
Q Did you state that in your deposition?
A I suppose this is true.
Q Have you and the board members -- previous boards
selected sites on a neighborhood school basis?
A Mr. Walker, I told you also in my deposition I have
never participated in the selection of a school site since I
have been on the board.
Q According to your knowledge about board policies?
A I would not want to speak on board policies prior
to when I was on the board, because I don't know.
Q Do you recall ray asking you this question, Mr. Woods
(No response.)
"How do you change that pattern, then" -- referring
to neighborhoods being segregated -- "recognizing
that what you have in Little Rock is: one, the
policy of neighborhood schools; two, the policy of
locating schools on a neighborhood basis; and three,
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Kj V*. >• EXAMINATION - Woods 7 1 ?
the fact that you have some Negro schools and some
white schools based on the composition of either the
student body or historical identification?"
A Mr. Walker, I wouldn't attempt to try to solve the
living patterns of people, and I don't believe the school board
could do this.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, just for the record, I'm
going to object to any testimony as to the personal beliefs or
feelings of the school board members about the relative merits
of a neighborhood school system in this hearing on the basis ii:
is not relevant or material to the issues before the Court.
THE COURT: All right. I'll keep that objection in
mind.
MR. FRIDAY: All right.
MR. WALKER: Before the Court rules on that, I'd
like to be heard.
THE COURT: I haven't ruled on it.
MR. WALKER: All right.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q You are a member of the board. What is your positio
on the board?
A What is my position.'
Q Do you have an office?
A No, sir.
Q You are aware of the fact that the school district
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has purchased a large amount of acreage in Pleasant Valley,
aren't you?
A This was also prior to my time on the school board.
Q Can you answer my question, yes or no?
A Yes.
Q Isn't it true the Pleasant Valley Corporation --
Development Corporation, or whatever it is — uses that proper*:
as an inducement to prospective purchasers to come into Picasan
Valley?
A I do not know.
Q You have never seen the sign?
A I have seen the sign that "A school is to be built
here", but that's all I know.
Q Is that a school sign?
A No, sir. I don't know who put the sign up.
Q You have never investigated?
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, that's enough of that.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I'm trying to find out
whether the school district --
THE COURT: He said he did not know who put the sigr
out there. That's all there is to that.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q What would you say the racial composition of the
Pleasant Valley community is now, Mr. Woods?
CROSS EX A?'I HAT I ON - Wood?, 21.3
A I don't know, but I can male; a guess. I can guess
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- Woods 2 14CROyS EXAMINATION
that it's all white.
Q Are you familiar with the economic status of that
neighborhood?
A Well, as a private citizen living in the area, yes,
generally speaking.
Q Would you describe that as an area for upper-middle
income people?
A Probably so.
Q Now, is it likely, based on what you know about the
economic situation of Negroes in Little Rock, that very many
Negro people1:, even without segregation in housing, will be able
to become residents in that community within the next year to
two years?
A Mr. Walker, I couldn't answer that question; I just
don't know.
Q Isn't it true you answered that before, Mr. Woods?
A You asked me to guess before. I can guess now if
you want me to.
Q Your answer before was -- if I may read the full
question: "You are familiar because of your involvement in
community affairs with the economic ability of Negro people
and white on a comparable basis. What, in your estimate, do yo
believe will ultimately be, within the next three or four years
the racial composition of Pleasant Valley? What is your view?”
Answer: "I would say very little.”
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CUtXB KX/JiltlATIOil - Woods
Question: 'Very few Negroes, if any?"
Answer: "That's right."
Question: "So, if a school is built there, it
would be a white school, won't it, in terms of pupils who atten
there on a racial basis?"
Answer: "Probably so. I may hasten to add this,
though, that in building schools for children, you still have
to build them where the children are; and not taking issue with
you, or what former boards may have done, you still have to
have schools available to teach children. For example, in the
McDermott, Brady, Terry area, as fast as we can build schools
they are overcrowded because we know people axe moving into
new homes in these areas."
Is that a true statement?
A That is still my answer to those questions.
Q I asked you also whether the board perceived, to
your knowledge, or you as a member, any educational advantage
in integration.
A Education advantage?
Q Yes.
A To education. Are you speaking of education as
reading, writing, and arithmetic, or are you speaking of
education
Q As a part of the total learning process of the
2 1 5
individual.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 21
A Integration would possibly be of assistance to pupi..
in learning ~-
THE COURT: I don't think I’m interested in the
philisophical discussions of the witness of the advantages or
disadvantages of integration.
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor. I would
respectfully note my objections.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, would you have an opinion as to whether or not
the Oregon Plan basically was submitted to the electorate to
determine whether or not they wanted to implement it?
A The Oregon Plan was not, as a plan, submitted to
the electorate.
Q Did the community accept the Oregon Plan in your
estimation?
A In my estimation, I would say not; but it was not a
direct vote on the plan itself.
Q I asked you in your deposition, "You say you must:
have community acceptance. Is it your understanding that the
community did not accept the Oregon Plan?"
Answer: "I would assume so."
Question: "They refused to accept the Oregon Plan?"
Answer: "Rather strongly, I would say."
Is it true, Mr. Woods, that you made these statement:
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c r o s s EX 'TtICATIO’l T ’oocl
A Yes. This is based on the election of members, not
a vote on the plan itself.
0 Did you gain your position on a platform in oppositi
to the Oregon Plan?
A That was one point in my six-point platform,
opposition to the Oregon Plan.
Q Did you oppose a member of the board who favored the
Oregon Plan?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who was that person?
A Mr. Coates.
Q And he was defeated?
A Yes, sir.
Q I asked you further: "So they expressed a strong
preference to the neighborhood schools?"
Your answer: "I would say so. I would say I
wouldn't be on the school board today if they had not accepted
it, because I wouldn't have been elected."
A These are still ray conclusions. They were not direr
votes, but they are still my conclusions.
Q What have you done, specifically, before the Court's
letter to bring about a unitary school system?
A The first three or four months I was on the board,
I was basically trying to get my feet on the ground and learn
what was going on; and then when we got into January, the
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Immediately after the election in March, I partici
pated with Mr. Meeks in requesting the board to consider an
alteration to the freedom of choice plan which would extend
freedom of choice into school that previously had been closed
due to overcrowding. On motion of Mr. Drummond, the. suggestion
to put it on the agenda for discussion was tabled until after
the Supreme Court ruled on freedom of choice.
I've also discussed frequently with Mr. Parsons and
others our compensatory education program, especially as it
relates to our underprivileged areas and underprivileged
children.
I've also in several discussions, with Mr. Parsons
principally, discussed the teaching component of Park View
Schools insisting that we have a meaningful integration in our
staff at this school. I did not propose any figures on him
on percentage numbers, but told him that x*e should have a
meaningful number in this school.
Q ' What specific action, in addition to these, have you
done to bring about a unitary school system, other than conver
sation?
A Mr. Walker, we were operating under a Court-approvec
plan up until the Supreme Court acted, and since this time we.
have appointed a .committee to investigate this situation. I'm
not a member of the committee.
GROGS EXAMINATION - Woods
community was involved with a school elect ion involving mi lingo
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O X C / I S 1Y WORATION - Woods 2 1 9
Q So is it your answer that you haven't done anything-
A Individually, since the Supreme Court decision,
nothing, other than the items I've mentioned,
Q Have you taken any steps to get community acceptance
of any changes you may have been contemplating, or been require
to bring about to comply with the Supreme Court's decision?
A Yes, I talked with a number of people in the
community regarding acceptance of the proposition that we askec
to be put on the agenda that was postponed.
Q Which proposition was that?
A ^he proposition to open closed schools under the
freedom of choice.
Q How many schools were closed under freedom of choice
A Four last year. 1 think there will be only two this
coming year.
Q What schools were they last year?
A They were Hall High School, Brady, Terry, and Ish,
I believe it was.
Q Hall, Terry, Brady and Ish?
A Right.
Q And you were going to -- what was your plan?
A Basically, it was a proposal, not a plan, to close
the attendance zones in such a way that there would be enough
seats left open in each school for minority students to attend
to exercise a choice to attend these schools.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods
Q In each one of those schools?
A In each one that is closed. Of course, the ones
that are not closed have the choice anyway.
Q Did the board play any part in determining what the
attendance boundaries would be for each of the closed schools?
A The board did. I didn't; I wasn't on the board when
they were set.
Q What about this year, the fact you have two schools
that are overcrowded. What are those two schools?
A Those schools are Hall and Park View.
Q Hall and Park View.
What was your plan with regard to Park View at the
time you declared it to be overcrowded?
A I don't know what you mean by "plan”. You mean --
Q What grades did you plan to include within Park
View?
A Park View is opening as a eighth, ninth and tenth
grade school; nest year to move to a nine, ten and eleven, and
the following year to a full high school, ten, eleven and twel,r
Q So Park View would have been overcrowded this year.
A It is overcrowded, based on the freedom of choice
forms.
Q I see. How, then, did you happen to arrive at the
boundaries for Park View that you have here?
These boundaries were proposed after study by the
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superintendent and his staff. Basically, the main change in
the Hall attendance zone -- and, incidentally, this is not it
as you see it here. This is not the attendance zone that we
set on Hall. This is the one proposed under the new plan.
THE COURT: I don't want to hear any more about the
attendance zone at Park View.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I would like tc state our
position, just for the record, that the boundaries for Park
View were determined by the school district in such a way as
to minimize the number of Negro pupils that you would have
attending Park View, rather than to maximize the degree of
integration.
THE COURT: You may make that argument, of course.
MR. WALKER: I would like to proffer proof on that.
THE COURT: You may do it.
MR. WALKER: In view of the time limitation the
Court has imposed, I would like to proffer that proof just
between the Court and counsel after we have adjourned.
THE COURT: All right. We'll take that up.
MR. WALKER: Does the Court's ruling also apply to
inquiries that I may make as to how the zone lines were drawn
around Hall High School?
THE COURT: This man, obviously, wasn't on the boarc
You are talking about --
MR. WALKER: Overcrowding under the freedom of choic
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plan.
THE COURT: This man wasn't on the board when those
were drawn. He doesn't know anything about it.
MR. WALKER: Well, Your Honor, Hall was again
declared overcrowded this year.
THE COURT: Do you know anything about the attendant
boundaries of Hall?
THE WITNESS: We changed them slightly this year.
I can answer that.
THE COURT: You can ask him about that.
BY HR. WALKER:
Q Do you have a map which reflects the attendance
zones of Hall High under your freedom of choice plan?
A I don't have it with me.
THE COURT: How much of a change was made, Mr. Woods
THE WITNESS: I can explain what the change was very
simply.
MR. WALKER: Let me bring it out of you.
THE WITNESS: All right.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Once you determined that Hall was overcrowded, did
you draw your zone lines in such a way as to include any Negro
pupils within the Hall High area?
A To include Negro?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 22?
Q Yes.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 223
A We did not take race into consideration in drawing
the line.
Q I see.
A We took pupils into consideration. We did to this
extent take race into consideration, and that is we included
we were talking about going down the Eighth Street expressway
on the south side. We decided to leave it on Twelfth Street
where it had been since this new residential area may include
some Negro families, which would put some Negro families in Had
but other than this one item, there was no racial consideration
given.
Q Do you consider
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I'm dispensing with inquiry
into this subject because of the Court's prior admonition.
THE COURT % All right.
MU. WALKER: Reserving, of course, the right to
proffer proof.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Hot*/, do yon. have an opinion as a school board
member as to whether re-segregation of some of the schools,
which have been identified by Mr. Parsons as being over-Integra
would present any significant educational difficulties or affee
the implementation of a valid desegregation plan?
A Would you rephrase the question, please.
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THE COURT: Do you have an opinion as fco what, Mr.
Walker?
BY HR. WALKER:
Q Do you have an opinion as to the effect that re
segregation will have on the educational process in the centra',
city schools?
A On the educational aspect?
Q Yes.
A This is a difficult question.
THE COURT: The question is, do you have an opinion.
THE WITNESS: Not at the moment, I don't. I don’t
have any opinion.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q You have not given any thought fco this in your boarc
meeting, or any discussion to this in the board meetings?
A On the problem of re-segregation?
Q Yes.
A Yes, it has been discussed to some degree.
Q What plans has the board developed to prevent
re-segregation?
A This is a matter that is under study at the present
time, and I don’t -- as I say, I’m not a member of this committ*
Q Have you ever read the Blossom Plan?
A The plan?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 224
Q Yes.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 225 i
A No, sir, I have not.
Q Do you have any educational reasons, as a board
member, to support — for this attendance area plan — the
drawing of the zone lines on a north-south basis, rather than o
a east-west basis? I'm talking about the high schools.
A You mean educationally?
Q Yes.
A 1 don't have an educational basis. The basis of our
attendance areas we have drawn have been to keep the students
in the nearest proximity of the schools as possible.
Q To your knowledge, what is the greatest distance
that a pupil who attends Hall High School -- under the over
crowded zoning plan that you have — would have to travel, to
get to Hall High School?
A I don't know in miles; it would probably be from
Walton Heights, I would guess would be the fartherect. I don't;
know in miles.
Q How far is Walton Heights from Hall High School?
A I don't: know.
Q Would Walton Heights be any further from Hall High
School --
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, if he doesn’t know how far
it is from Walton Heights, how would he be able to say how far
it would be from somewhere else.
MR. WALKER: Well, Your Honor, he would know whether
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 2 2 6
Walton Heights is further from Hall High School than his house
is, for instance.
THE COURT: I'm sure it is, isn't it, Hr. Woods?
MR. WALKER: That's not my question.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Walton Heights is north of Highway 10, is that true?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would Walton Heights be any further from Hall High
School than, say, the area right around the State Hospital to
the south of Eighth Street?
A No, sir, I would say that this is closer. However,
we have Walton Heights in the closest school to which they live
Q So that the pupils in Walton Heights are actually
a greater distance away from Hall High School than the pupils
who live around Monroe, Madison, Jefferson, Van Buren streets?
A I guess that is true. I don't see how that enters
into it, because we put Walton Heights in the closest high
school to where they live.
Q But in terms of proximity, you do have some Negro
pupils who live closer to Hall High School than the pupils who
live in Walton Heights or Pleasant Valley?
A I would say, yes, we do.
Q But your zoning plan excludes them because of the
way the zone lines are drawn; isn't: that: true?
A That is true, but we don't see any other way to
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 22 7
draw the lines.
Q Did you consider, Mr. Parsons, east-west zoning in
arriving at the geographic attendance area plan you have
presented here in Defendant's Exhibit 14?
A East-west?
Q Yes.
A This was drawn by the administrative staff on
recommendation of our committee after Judge Young's letter and
the instructions -- I wasn't on the committee ~~ the instructic
wore to draw lines so that the students — to take into account
the nearest proximity to the schools.
Q Let me get it straight for the record.
You do know there were Negro pupils who live within
the Monroe, Madison, Jefferson, Adams -~
A No, sir, I don't know that.
TEE COURT: Mr. Walker, I think I have heard about
all I want to hear from this witness.
Do you have any questions, Mr. Friday?
MR. FRIDAY: No, sir.
THE COURT: You are excused.
MR. WALKER: Would the Court note our exceptions
to the limitation of the witness.
THE COURT: Yes, but all we are doing is duplicating
matters and wasting time. This man doesn't know much about
what you are asking. These are things that Mr. Parsons can
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 228
answer.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, Mr. Parsons has also statx
he didn't knew where the students live.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WALKER: It seems like nobody knows where --
THE COURT: Mr. Woods, you may step down.
Call your next witness.
(Witness excused.)
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Patterson 229
Thereupon,
T . E . PATTERSON
having been called as a witness by counsel for defendants, and
having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q State your name, please.
A T. E. Patterson.
Q What is your business or profession, Mr. Patterson?
A I'm Executive Secretary of the Arkansas Teachers
Association.
Q What is the Arkansas Teachers Association?
A The Arkansas Tea hers Association is a professional
association for Negro teachers in Arkansas.
THE COURT: Mr. Patterson, you're not speaking
loud enough to he heard.
THE WITNESS: The Arkansas Teachers Association is
the professional organization of Negro teachers in Arkansas.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q What is your connection with the Little Rock School
District, Mr. Patterson?
A I'm a member of the Little Rock School Board.
Q Mr. Patterson, I just want to cover one area with yc
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - P a t te r s o n 230
I hand you a copy of a resolution that has been introduced
in evidence as Defendant's Exhibit No, 17, and ask you to look
at it. You are aware that this is the resolution that was
presented to and adopted by the board on yesterday, August 15,
1968?
A Yes,
Q Yes, you are aware of that?
A Yes, I'm aware of it.
Q The record to date reflects, Mr. Patterson, that you
abstained in the vote on this resolution; is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q I think it is important that the Court have the full
picture,and I would ask you a few questions about the principles
involved.
As a school board member, regardless of whether you
voted for this resolution or not, do you have a position you
would like to state to the Court as to whether or not the distr:.
needs until December 1 to continue its study of all available
alternatives before formulating a permanent plan for pupil and
teacher desegreation?
MR. WALKER; Your Honor, before he answers that, I
would respectfully like to object. Mr. Parsons has stated they
wanted until September 1, and counsel has given some persuasive
reasons why they want until December 1. I'm certain that that
is completely irrelevant to this Court in view of the fact this
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Patterson 231
district has had since 1954 to come up with a constutionally
TIIE COURT: Mr. Walker, the primary issue at this
hearing is what, if anything, should be done by the board befor<
the September term. That is the issue before the Court.
MR. WALKER: But the question Mr. Friday asked does
not go to that issue, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I thought it did go to that issue.
MR. WALKER: His question was: "Do you need until
December 1"?
THE COURT: That certainly bears on this issue.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, will you respectfully note
my exception?
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Mr.patterson,would you please ansx̂ er the question?
The resolution says they need until December 1, and I want the
Court to have the benefit of all the board members' views, and
want you to state it to the Court, your views.
A Including my reason for abstaining?
Q Oh, yes. You state your reasons. I didn't ask
that precise question, i'll ask that, why did you abstain?
A In the resolution, I suppose I would say that in
order to have harmony of the board, I agreed to compromise that.
The zoning we would accept, and the December 1st date --
THE COURT: We can't hear you.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - P a t t e r s o n 232
THE WITNESS: The December 1st date for the permanent
plan, I would accept.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q You accepted both?
A This was a compromise because,frankly, I didn’t feel
we would need until 1969 but I did this in order to get the
board in good faith, which they said they would,develop a plan
December 1st that would try to accomplish total desegregation.
How, your original question was whether we need the
time?
Q To study alternatives »
A We do need the time, I think, to study alternatives
for a permanent total unification of the school system.
Q Excuse me, go ahead.
A Now, the time to put it together, because I feel
you have had enough time, I feel, to study, research and what
not. The difference between roe and the other board members is
that the administration can put together a plan if the board
would let them alone.
Q By December 1?
A By tomorrow*, if the board would stop picking at it
and tearing it apart.
Q Let’s take September 1, Mr. Patterson. Do you have
a position as to whether or not the board ought to go to the
zoning proposal the staff has come up with on September 1, 1
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - P a t t e r s o n 233
A Yes .
Q You think they could go to that on September 1, 1968?
A Yes .
Q Do you think that would be a permanent plan?
A No.
Q You think it would be purely temporary?
A I think it would be the initial step. I think any
plan would be revised and improved as problems arise, but I
think the initial step is the best they could take.
Q You do not feel it was the permanent solution?
A No, I don't think any plan would.
Q You think they would still need until December 1,
in order to come up for 1969 in time to study some alternative
to that?
A I think any plan,itself,would present problems that
should be studied and corrected.
Q All right. Now, Mr. Patterson, from the standpoint
and so the Court will have the complete picture, you are aware
that staff assignments have been made for next year?
A Yes.
Q Do you join in the statement or the principle embodi
in the statement in the resolution that it would be disruptive
if there were a substantial change in those staff assignments
as of September 1, 1968?
A Yes.
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CROSS EXAMINATION Patterson 234
Q Your answer --
A Yes, I understand that.
Q All right, sir.
HR. FRIDAY: That is all I have, Your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Patterson, would any faculty re-assignment plan
that would be imagined be disruptive to this degree?
A Yes.
Q What you are saying then, is that there are problems
that are going to accompany anything that the district does
with regard to implementing a plan of faculty desegregation thi3
year, or next?
A Yes. In other words, anytime we make a change, there
is disruption. Disruption in '68 would be no more than *69,
except I think it would maybe put a burden on the Negro teacher;:
Q Do you see it as placing a burden on the white
teachers as well as the Negro teachers?
A No.
Q Would you explain that.
A Anytime you have total consolidation of the Negro
and white schools, the person that suffers is the Negro teachers
Either she is fired or she is demoted or she is put in a place
out of her professional teaching field. I feel that the longer
delay of time will give the administration time to plan to
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Patterson 235
satisfy the white teachers and then let the Negro teachers
suffer. It's been repeated time and time again.
Q Do you have experience as a board member that would
cause you to coma to that conclusion?
A Yes, we all know, I think, that the initial assign
ment of Negro teachers, was against where the white teachers
were conferred, and if they objected they were allowed to staj
where they were, and these kind of things.
Q Are you referring to what has happened insofar as
faculty desegregation is concerned in Little Rock?
A Yes.
Q Would you be more specific on that point for the
Court?
A I think we have been over this, too. In the initial
assignment of, let's say, five teachers, there were tv?o to ray
knowledge that didn’t want to go; one remained and one quit.
Q These are Negro?
A Negro. There were white teachers who were asked, and
of course, when they objected they were not forced to go. The
difference, I think, is in consultation that the Negro teacher
would go, but when the teachers got the notice it was picked e
and they said "You're assigned to Metropolitan", and this was
the first knowledge, and so the teachers rebelled -- well, not
rebelled, but crying and going on and one thing and another.
Q Did they come to you personally with the problem?
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A No, none requested from ray association any help.
Q I don't mean from the Arkansas Teachers Association,
which you work with, but as a board member and a friend.
A No.
Q How did you gain knowledge of these problems?
A Through other teachers and personal contact after
having heard it, but it was not made as an appeal.
Q Now, do you know, Mr. Patterson, whether Negro teach^
have been assigned to predominantly white schools shortly
before school is to open in a given year?
A No, I don11 know that.
Q Do you know whether the ninety day provision that
has been discussed here today and yesterday is a part of boarc
policy, as far as you know?
A It is not.
Q Has it ever been used in the past?
A No, it hasn't.
Q Mien was the first tins*,to your knowledge as a board
member,that that ninety day policy was used?
A It has never been used.
Q And is it true it's now,for the first time,a subject
of negotiation between the Classroom Teachers Association and
the Little Rock School Board for the first time?
A Yes.
CROSS EXAMINATION - P a t te r s o n 236
Q How long has the Classroom Teachers Association been
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Patterson 237
an integrated organization, Mr. Peterson?
A Two years.
0 So, this is just the second year?
A Yes.
Q Who is the president of that organization to your
knowledge, or president elect?
A President elect is Mrs. Ruby McCoy.
Q lo she & Negro?
A She is a Negro.
Q Do you know whether, of your own knowledge, the boarc
authorised the Superintendent of Schools to ask the Classroom
Teachers Association or the Principals Roundtable to intervene
in this action to oppose faculty desegregation for this year?
MR. FRIDAY: That question assumes, Your Honor,
erroneously --- there is nothing in the record and nothing to
support it that he has come to intervene for that purpose.
THE COURT: Read the question.
MR. WALKER: I asked whether he knew
THE COURT: You might ask whether or not it's a fact
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Did the board, by resolution or other formal action,
authorise the Superintendent of Schools to approach the
Classroom Teachers and the Principals Roundtable to oppose,
for the purpose of opposing, complete faculty desegregation i.
1968-69?
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P a t t e r s o n 238CROSS EXAMINATION -
A Mot to my knowledge.
Q Has this special committee to your knowledge, the
committee that is discussing or studying school desegregation
problems, to your knowledge authorized the superintendent to
approach either one of those organizations to ask for delay
in implementing the faculty desegregation requirements of the
Judge?
A Mot to my knowledge.
Q Do you know whether, in fact, meetings have been helc
with the classroom teachers by the administrative staff of the
district on this subject?
A Yes.
Q Do you know for a fact,whether the Superintendent of
Schools has appeared at those meetings?
A Yes.
Q Do you know for a fact, whether the Superintendent of
Schools took the position that if the classroom teachers ware
to intervene in the action, the Court would be more generous
probably in reacting to the board's plea for delay? Do you
know?
A Well, no, he didn't take that position, per se.
Q Would you state, then, the position that was taken
by the superintendent?
A The superintendent didn't take a position, as I reca .
I wasn't in but one meeting. He felt that the teachers should
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Patterson 239
let their positions be known. He did not say what position
at the meeting I attended.
0 Did he state the position that was going to be taken
by the board?
A Ho, because we hadn't taken a position.
Q But did he state a position that he was going to
reconsaend the board take on the issue of delaying faculty
desegregation?
A Yes, he did say the disruptive aspect of September,
of course, would violate and all this business, but that was
all. The letter, I think, was what the original concept was.
There was no position taken against the Judge's letter.
Q But he did encourage theta to let their position be
known to the Court?
A No, he stayed away from encouraging anything. He
said he had no position to take, as I understand it. He said
'You make your own decisions". These are the facts; he gave
the report, the letter, what it meant, and the hardships it
would cause. He said,"Now you have the facts; you make your
decision".
Q Who initiated the meeting?
A I guess the administration.
Q The administration, you mean the superintendent?
A Yes.
Q Now, had the board ever before sought the assistance
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240CROSS EXAMINATION Patterson !
or intervention or cooperation or counsel of the Classroom
Teachers Association?
THE COURT: I think I have heard enough on that.
HR. WALKER: Would you note our exceptions, Ycur
Honor?
THE COURT: He has made himself very clear as to
what occurred.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I was talking about prior
to this fcii®.
THE COURT: That makes no difference. He said what
happened this time.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I would want the Court to
understand that at no time in the past has the district soug'
the cooperation or intervention of the Classroom Teachers
Association.
THE COURT: The witness has not testified at this
time he sought the cooperation or the intervention of the
teachers. He said they were to use their own judgment.
MR, WALKER: May I ask him one more question about
that point, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Do you know whether Mr. Parsons made a statement to
the effect that the teachers* position should be made known
to the Court?
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241
A Yes.
MR. WALKER: No more questions on this point, Your
Honor, but i would like to use Mr. Patterson in the developrae
of our case.
THE COURT: You my.
MR. FRIDAY: Thank you, Mr. Patterson.
THE COURT: You are excused.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - F ow ler 242
Whereupon,
WILLIAM II. FOWLER
having been called as a witness by counsel for the Defendant
and having been first duly sworn was examined and testified
as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q State your name, please, sir.
A Harry Fowler.
Q Mr. Fowler , what’s your position with the Little
Rock School District?
A Assistant superintendent for personnel.
Q Give briefly for the record your background in
matters pertaining to education and supervisory positions,
just briefly run through it. I want to get in the record the
background that you have had in these matters leading up to
your present position as assistant superintendent for personnel
A I have been a class room teacher at both the
secondary and elementary level. Junior High School principal,
Senior High School principal and an Elementary principal.
Q Over what period of time does that cover, Mr.
Fowler:
A Eighteen years.
Q Eighteen years. Now, as assistant superintendent
in charge of personnel, has it been your direct responsibility
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Fowler 243
to carry out the staff desegregation program of the Little
Rock School District?
A Yes, it has.
Q What is your understanding of the charge to you --
by that I mean your duty -- in this regard.
A The charge to me, the original charge was to
at least double staff desegregation over the 1956-67 school
year.
Q I'm sorry. So the record will be clear. When
did you become assistant superintendent in charge of personnel?
A February, 1967 -- I'm sorry, March 1, 1967.
Q You have been there approximately --
A -- approximately a year and a half.
Q Approximately a year and a half. Who was in
the office before you, Mr. Fowler?
A Dr. Harvey Walthall.
Q All right. Go ahead, sir. The first thing
they told you was to double the number?
A Yes, at least double.
Q The statistics are in --
A We are talking about faculty?
Q Faculty, yes, sir, faculty desegregation. The
statistics are in but in order to bring continuity to your
testimony, how many did you have at the time you got this
charge so we can see what you have accomplished?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Fowler 244
A Thirty-five or thirty-six, I believe. Thirty-six,
I believe.
Q Was this full-time?
A Full-time, yes.
Q All right. Then you were able to bring that
number up to what?
A Eighty-five.
Q Full-time?
A Full-time, yes, sir.
Q All right. For next year you have been able to
bring that number up to what total?
A I expect it to be 113.
Q One hundred and thirteen?
A Yes.
Q Just briefly, and I don't want you to belabor it,
but I want you to describe so the Court will have the full
picture, how do you go about accomplishing this?
A By talking. Primarily, talking. Talking to --
first of all you must have positions open and a part of the
charge was to fill these
THE COURT: Will you speak a little louder, please
THE WITNESS: A part of the charge was to
accomplish this doubling, if I may use that term, by normal
attrition and the volunteer method of both white and Negro
teachers.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Fowler 245
Q As distinguished from arbitrary assignment, I
believe previous testimony has shewn.
A Yes.
Q Go ahead, sir.
A Well, first of all Ihave to determine where I have
positions open that I could place persons. Secondly, I had to
determine who was available to be placed in these positions.
Then I set about interviewing people to fill the positions
once they were determined.
Q Do you interview every applicant to the Little
Rock school system for a teaching or staff position?
Fowler?
A Every applicant, yes.
Q Every one is interviewed?
A Yes.
Q All right. Has it been a difficult task, 1
A Most difficult.
Q Why has it been difficult?
A I find it extremely difficult to get white
teachers to accept positions at predominantly Negro schools.
Q Do you care to elaborate on this, if you know?
If you do not know, say so. Why are they more reluctant to go?
I am sorry, I was not clear.
A I have an opinion, but I don't really know why.
I know only that I know they refused,many people refused to do
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DIRECT EXAMINATION Fowler 246
this.
Q Do you have some of their reasons?
A Particularly those young people coming out of
school,that4 I have no experience with Negro pupils before and
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I would not like to go into the situation my first experience.
I have had other people tell me that their families objected
although they were willing to go. There are many and varied
reasons that this has happened.
Q All right. I think Mr. Parsons was questioned
on the fact, if you will agree that it is a fact, there has
been a higher turnover among the white teachers that have
been assigned to the Negro schools. You heard Mr. Parsons'
testimony. Do you share his views in this regard?
A Yes.
Q All right. Mr. Parsons testified that there were
certain teachers or staff people in addition to the numbers
that the exhibits reflect. Have you examined so you could
put in specifics on how many additional people are involved
at the staff level in desegregation positions?
A At the staff level, I can give you totals.
Q Well, at the faculty level?
A That includes persons other than staff.
Q All right.
A If you say staff, I am thinking of administrative
staff or total staff?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - F o w ler 247
Q No, you just Include it from top to bottom. I
just want to get in so the record will reflect Mr. Parsons
testimony was speculative, and I wanted you to get exact
figures.
A There are exactly 74 positions, 51 white persons
and 23 Negroes in these 74 positions.
Q These 74 are in addition to the figures reflected
by the exhibits that have been put in on staff and faculty
desegregation?
A Yes.
Q Now, without naming all 74 of them please give the
Court the categories of the type people you are talking about.
A May I start with myself?
Q Yes.
A I am included in the 74. There are two other
persons at the administrative level, there are three princi
pals, one white --one Negro, and two whites included in this
group. Psychological examiners, home teachers, remedial
reading teachers, music teachers, librarians, elementary
librarians, librarian aides, para-professionals, or those
commonly called teacher aides.
Q Now, is it fair to characterise, and if it is not
you say so, that these 74 people occupy assignments or
perform duties where their race is in the minority. Is this
correct?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Fowler 248
A Yes -- may I elaborate?
Q Yes, please do elaborate.
A The majority of the persons who I have just
named and the positions that I have just named work in more
than one school, particularly those people that go into a
school. Some of the schools are all-white. Some are all-
Negro and some are integrated.
Q Now, Mr. Fowler, would you state whether or not
during the period that you have been there that you have
gotten all of the desegregation at these levels that you can
get under the procedures that you have been following which
leaves out arbitrary reassignments?
A I would say very definitely, yes.
Q Very definitely yes.
A Yes.
Q You have worked at it?
A For too years without vacation. I think that is
the best answer I can give, or the year and a half that I
have been there without vacation.
Q Do you have a position --if you do not, say so —
that you would care to state to the Court whether from an
educational standpoint, it is desirable to have a teacher in
a forced or arbitrary assigned position?
A From an educational standpoint, I feel it is not
a desirable position to have a teacher in such a position
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler
unhappy. I have a feeling that a teacher ougb®~ to be happy.
This is just niy belief and it has always been my belief,as a
school principal I thought that a teacher ought to be happy.
MR. FRIDAY: That is all I have.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Have you conducted a survey, Mr. Fowler,to
determine whether or not white teachers would be willing to
teach in Negro schools and vice versa?
A No, I have not.
Q Did your predecessor, Mr. J. Harvey Walthall,
conduct such a survey to your knowledge?
A Yes.
Q Do you have the results of that survey?
A I have seen the results of it, yes.
Q Would you state what the percentage of white
teachers in the whole system was who indicated a willingness
to teach in predominantly Negro schools?
A I don’t recall the exact percentage, Mr. Walker,
but very low.
Q What about the number who would be willing to
teach in a predominantly school, although not an all-Negro
school, was that covered by the survey?
A Still very low.
Q What about one attended by a mixed population
249
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CROSS EXAMINATION - F o w ler 250
■acially?
A I believe, Mr. Walker, the survey --
THE COURT: A little louder, please.
THE WITNESS: The survey only asked one question
tlong these lines and the majority of answers were, no, they
rottld not be willing to work in such situations.
THE COURT: Mr. Fowler, I hate to keep saying it,
>ut you must speak louder.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, I will do so.
MR. WALKER:
Q The Oregon Report has been introduced in evidence,
rour Honor, and I would like to call your attention to table
.1, Mr. Fowler.
MR. WALKER: Judge, that would be on page 55
the Oregon Report, marked as Defendant's Exhibit 7.
5Y MR. WALKER:
Q I show you a copy of that, Mr. Fowler, and ask
Lf you are familiar with this table 11 which is identified as
staff reactions to student grouping alternatives in Little
lock.
I have read it in this report, Mr. Walker.
I see. Would you state what that report shows,
A
Q
>lease?
A This report shows responses to certain questions
;hat were asked white and Negro teachers apparently. You want
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CROSS EXAMINATION - F o w ler 251
me to read the whole thing? "
Q Have you studied this before?
A Yes, I have read it and studied it.
Q Would you summarize what that table means insofar
as the faculty desegregation is concerned?
A Mr. Walker, I get the feeling that this report
in summary says that white teachers who are asked certain
questions, or 77 of the number asked would work in situations
where there were both white and Negro children, and two of the
total number asked of the white teachers would work where
there were all-Negro children. There were 30 Negro teachers
who responded that they would work in situations where there
were both white and Negro children and one response of a
Negro teacher who would work with all-Negro children.
Q Well, Ttfhat I am driving at, Mr. Fowler, do you
have an opinion as to whether your task of making faculty
assignments would be made easier if your student body were,
say of a ratio of approximately 70 percent white and 30 percent
Negro?
A Yes, I have an opinion.
Q What would be your opinion?
A It would certainly be much easier. My task
would be much easier if the composition of students in each
school were that percentage.
Q I see. Would your task be much easier than it is
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler
not*; if the ratio in soma schools were say, 50 £©,■ 50?
2 5 2
A Yes.
Q So, then, what you are saying is that the larger
the number of Negro pupils in a particular school, the greater
problems you have in obtaining complete faculty desegregation
according to government standard in those schools?
A Yes.
Q What wasyour teacher turnover at the end of this
last year, Hr. Fowler?
A We are approaching ten percent at the present
time, Mr. Walker.
Q At the present time, but at the time of your
deposition, how many positions had been vacated, Mr. Fowler,
for this year?
A I don’t recall the exact number. They were
coming in daily.
THE COURT: Well, as of new, if you know?
THE WITNESS: As of now, the last time I checked,
107, I believe.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q All right. I asked you on your deposition, of
the 50 spaces -- I had gotten this from you -- of the 50
spaces that have been vacated this year, teaching spaces,
how many of those were vacated by Negroes, and how many were
vacated by whites, roughly?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 253
Your answer was two Negroes. Is that true? ^ ,
A Yes.
Q So you do recall having made a statement to the
effect that this was a year when you had fewer resignations
than ordinarily?
A At the time of the deposition we did have fewer
resignations.
Q And that was July 17, 1968?
A Yee.
Q What number of resignations then have you had
since July 17, 1968?
A Oh, Mr. Walker, I would say 30 to 40.
Q Thirty to forty?
A Yes.
Q What reasons have been assigned by the teachers
for resigning?
A You mean all teachers?
Q Yes, what, — generally what is the single reason
given most frequently?
A Leaving the city.
Q I see. Are very many of the reasons associated
with what may have been construed to be the Judges* require
ments in his letter?
A Oh, no.
Q I see.
I don’t think so.
Now, when you call a teacher in, Mr.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 254
Fowler, a white teacher, to tell him that you want him to be
assigned to a Negro school, would you tell us how you go
about that?
A Mr. Walker, I have not called a white teacher
in.
Q You have not?
A You eay called in, I am assuming you mean call
them into my office. I have not done this.
Q What steps have you taken to incourage white
teachers to go into formerly Negro schools?
A Mr. Walker, I have talked with a number of teachers
as I have traveled over the school district and at times
I have been in various schools, I have talked with them about
it.
Q But you haven’t called any in for an interview?
A I seldom need to.
Q Bo you know whether any other member of the
administrative staff has interviewed people specifically
for the purpose of determining whether or not they would be
willing to be assigned to a Negro school?
A I don’t knw?.
Q You don't knot?. Would you ordinarily knot.?
about the actions --
THE COURT: Let's just skip that, whether he
would ordinarily know.
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MR. WALKER: Note ray exceptions.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now,what is your specific responsibility in the
d isfcrict, Mr. Fowler?
A My specific responsibility is the recruitment,
the employment and placement of teachers.
Q I see. How have you -- just that. You recruit,
employ and place them.
A Yes.
Q Do you have the authority to assign a person
to a school against that person's will?
A Yes, I have that authority.
Q Has that authority been given you by board
delegation or by direction from the superintendent?
A Mr. Walker, that is part of the policy of the
district as relates to my duties.
Q I understand. Have you exercised that policy
then to assign white teachers -- to assign now -- white
teachers to Negro schools who have been teaching within the
system before?
A No, I have not.
Q Have you exercised that authority to assign
Negro teachers who have been teaching in the system to white
schools?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 255
A No, I lave not.
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2 5 6
Q You have not. Do you know whethqjt your
predecessor did so?
A No, I do not know.
THE COURT: Let's take a recess until five minutes
after eleven.
( A short recess was taken.)
CROSS EXAMINATION - F o w ler
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CROSS EXAMINATION - F o w ler 257
BY MR. WALKER:
jSBKrr --
Q Mr. Fowler, do you have -- did you have, on July 17th
an opinion,based on your year and a half as assistant superin-'
tendent in charge of personnel,as to whether the task of the
faculty desegregation could have been achieved by this
district had a more precise policy been formulated to direct
the administrative staff, or to guide the administrative staff
insofar as movement toward the ultimate goal is concerned ?
A Yes, I have an opinion.
Q What was your opinion?
A My opinion, then and now, is that if the board had
set a acre positive policy then, it would have been easier to
achieve more staff integration than we presently have.
Q What are the policies of the board that you now
operate under? That is, have there been any written policies
arrived at by the board, which appear in the board minutes,
which have been given to you to implement in the last year
and a half, other than the directive to double the amount of
faculty integration for the 1967-68 school year?
A To my knowledge, no policies.
Q Did you have authority as of July 17th to assign
people without giving them a choice as to the school that the)’
would be assigned to? I call your attention to page seventeen
of your deposition.
A My answer then, Mr. Walker, was, no, we do not
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CROSS EXAMINATION - F o w ler 258
operate under such procedures. ^ ,
Q Would you like to expand on that?
A Would you ask the question again; I have lost it.
Q My question was: Did you have authority to just
assign people without giving them a choice to the school that
they would be assigned to; and yoiranswer was that you did not
operate under that particular procedure. I wanted to know if
you want to elaborate on that.
A 1 have answered that we do not operate under that
procedure, Mr. Walker, but I’ll elaborate to this extent, that
when we talked to persons about a specific position, we are
talking to them about a position at a school. We do not
employ persons and then assign them. We employ them as we
have vacancies to occur.
Q So that you attempted to place — fill the fifty odd
vacancies through July with persons new to the system; is that
what you are saying?
A Yes.
Q You did not use this as an opportunity to transfer,
say, Negro teachers who had indicated a willingness to go to
white schools into those vacancies, and then employ white
teachers, new to the system, to fill the vacancies that those
Negro teachers left behind?
A Mr. Walker, we did transfer one or two persons in
order to create positions at the Negro schools in order to
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 259
further our staff desegregation; only one or^jrwo.
Q So that the Judge will know just what your procedure
is for making assignments, would you explain to him just how
you go about filling a vacancy within a school. Say, for
instance, a vacancy occurs at Hall High School; what is the
procedure the district follows in filling that vacancy basical
A Of course, all resignations come to my office, and
then I immediately know -- then I know where we have a vacancy
I, then, will pull applications for that position. I'll con ft
with the principal. We will interview, or he will interview,
those persons that I have given him for this position.
Q So, then, the principal plays a part in determining
which particular teacher will be assigned to his school?
A Yes.
Q I see. Now, is that true of all the schools? I usee
Hall as an example.
A It’s true of all the schools, yes.
Q Now, the principal is the person who makes the
decision in the first instance as to whether or not a particul;
teacher will be assigned to his school?
A No.
Q All right. Who makes the decision in the first
instance? I'm not talking about finally; in the first instance
A The principal will study the application I have giver
him, he will interview those peoplet and he will make the
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recommendation. >
Q Did you almost always accept the principal's
r e c oname nda tions?
A Yes. I accepted it because the applications I have
given him to study and to interview are qualified people.
Q Now, how do you account for the fact that at Hall
High School as of July 17, 1968, you had only one Negro facult
member at Hall?
A How do I account for it?
Q Yes.
A Out of 61 teachers — well, I came into this positior
in the spring of *67, and we only had, I believe, three --
it may be one or two more, but I seem to have the number three
in my mind. We only had several -- let me put it that way,
we only had several vacant positions at Hall High School.
These were in certain areas. At the time the positions were
open, we didn't have available, if you are asking why we didn
put Negroes in, we didn't have the Negro applicants available
to place there.
Q Didn't you have some Negro teachers at Horace Mann
who were teaching substantially the same subjects that those
teachers who left or resigned were teaching?
A Yes, we did.
Q Why did you not transfer the teachers from Horace
CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 260
Mann to Hall?
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261CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler
A It'a my feeling, arid I feel it very strongly, thatjam*-'
we cannot continue to transfer the better or our good Negro
teachers our Negro children in the predominant Negro schotj
need good teachers and experienced teachers, and I feel strong
that we cannot continue to transfer Negro teachers from the
predominant Negro schools and fill these positions with
relatively inexperienced teachers.
Q Do you think that the policy of filling vacancies
and encouraging voluntary transfers can ever achieve faculty
desegregation in the goal that has been set out?
A Having worked with it a year and a half, Mr. Walter,
1 say we can never achieve it as we are presently operating.
Q Have you advised the board of this?
A I have talked to the superintendent about it.
Q Why do you oppose taking experienced, competent Negrc
teachers from Negro schools and placing them in white schools,
and replacing those teachers with new beginning teachers?
A Mr. Walker, it's an educationally sound principle
that a staff, a given staff, ought to be composed of experienc
in terms of years,as well as inexperienced people.
THE COURT: Louder, Mr. Fowler.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Are you saying that what you do when you remove the
experienced, able Negro teacher from the Negro school and
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replace her with a relatively inexperienced white teacher,
that you weaken the program of the school from which that
person was taken ordinarily?
A Mr. Walker, I ’m not saying that I have done that.
Q I understand that.
A I’m saying this is a possibility that this could be
the case, yes.
Q Isn’t it true that you have a high attrition rate
among the white teachers who have been assigned to Negro
schools?
A Yes.
Q And it's considerably lower among Negro teachers who
have been assigned to white schools?
A This is true, yes.
Q How would you account for that fact happening?
A Mr. Walker, the Negro teachers that we have in our
systern are very stable, apparently. We have a large number
of white teachers assigned to predominantly Negro schools to
resign for many reasons.
THE COURT: Louder, Mr. Fowler. You must talk where
we can hear you.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, Judge. It feels like I’m
screaming.
One of the big reasons, Mr. Walker, is that many of
CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 262
these people have left the city.
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GROGS EXAMINATION - Fowler 263
BY MR. WALKER: ^ ,
Q Are there other reasons, Mr. Fowler?
A Yes, pregnancy has been ano her reason.
THE COURT: What was that?
THE WITNESS: Pregnancy.
HIE COURT: Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: And the others, I really don't know.
They don't give reasons every time. They just resign.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q But the white teachers assigned to teach in the
formerly Negro schools are more likely, by far, to leave the
school system within two or three years,than the white teache
assigned to teach in formerly white schools; is that true?
I mean, in all-white schools.
A Mr. Walker, we have a very high resignation rate,
and it's approaching this year, again, to be very high. I
don't really know whether I can answer your question or not.
Q I call your attention to page 35 of your deposition
and ask you how many Negro -- how many white teachers did you
have in Negro schools last year?
A Thirty-three.
Q And how many of those whites will not be back next
year?
A Ten, I think, at that time.
Q How many now?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 264
A Elevens I believe. I had one more resignation.
So, more than 33 percent of them will not be back's
Yea.
How, how many white teachers did you have in the
Q
A
Q
syatern?
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Approximately -- last year?
Yes.
Approximate ly 750.
Does that include the 32 that were in Negro schools?
Yes.
So that would mean 718 teaching in formerly all-white:
schools. How many of that number, not including these ten,
will not be returning this year?
A Approximately — approx invite ly a hundred.
Q You mean to say that you have 132 people approximate
A You mean without --
Q Yes.
A Approximately 75.
Q These are white teachers?
A Yes.
Q How many Negro teachers do you have leaving the
system?
A Three. One by resignation, and two by retirement.
Q Lot me understand this, Mr. Fowler. At the time
of the deposition you had approximately fifty resignations.
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CkOo S EXAMINATION - Fowler 265 !
Are you saying now that since that time you have had about
35 more?
A We have had, I would think, more than 35, Mr. Walker
Q Since July 17th?
A I think I did not say fifty. I don’t recall having
told you fifty, exactly fifty.
Q About fifty.
A X don’t know whether I said about fifty; I recall
saying about five percent, which would be approximately fifty
THE COURT: I’m sure the figure changes as the
summer goes on.
THE WITNESS: Very definitely.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q So, you did say about five percent, which would have
been roughly fifty.
A Fifty or sixty; between fifty and sixty, yes.
Q Now, there is another thing I want to ask you about
and have read into the record.
You say for 1966-67, you had 32 white teachers in
Negro schools?
A Thirty-three, I think.
Q Would this be an accurate states©nt made shortly
before the school year was to begin, there will be 23 white
teachers ~~
MR. FRIDAY: I think you ought to tell him who made
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CROSS IRIAMINA'TlON Fov/l er 266
the statement and what you are reading from j^efore he can
give you any idea of the accuracy, Hr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: The statement would be accurate on the
merits rather than who made it, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I don't know what you are talking about.
What is the question.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Would this be an accurate statement if made shortly
before the beginning of the 1966-67 school year? "With regard
to performance thereunder, meaning the faculty desegregation
plan, the facts are that in the 1966-67 school year there will
be no less than sixty Negro students in integrated situations;
and no leas than 52 teachers in integrated faculty situations.
There will be 23 white teachers teaching in schools to be
attended only by Negro students, ten white teachers teaching
in a school to be attended by predominantly Negro students,
seventeen Negro teachers to be teaching in schools to be
attended predominantly by white students, and two Negro teache
teaching in schools to be attended predominantly by Negro
students
THE COURT: He couldn’t follow that question.
MR. WALKER: 1*11 show you the statement.
THE COURT: Are you asking him if that is true about
the Little Rock School District?
MR. WALKER: Yes, sir.
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267
TIIE COURT: As of when?
MR. WALKER; As of the beginning of the 1966-67
school year.
THE WITNESS: I would assume this is accurate, Mr.
Walker.
THE COURT; Was he there at the beginning of the
1966- 67 —
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Were you there in the beginning of the 1966-67 school
year?
A In my present position?
Q Yes.
A No.
Q So, you don't know.
Now, you have stated that until 1967-68, at least
1967- 68, to your knowledge, all of the persons hired for
coaching positions within the district -were hired on a racial
basis; is that true?
A I assume you mean before?
Q Up until 1967-68.
A Yes.
Q During that time have you assigned, up until July 17,
any Negroes to white senior high schools, senior high schools
fully operating, as coaches?
A Fully operating senior high schools, no.
Civ0,'j6 \i . j j vi'lXNA J. ION
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 268
Q Have you assigned any white coache scrota within the
system fco any Negro coaching stations
A No.
Q Isn't it true that this has been the effect, or the
practice, through the end of the 1967-68 school year, in all
cases except one school -- two schools, and that's Park View
and Horace Mann.
A Would you ask that question again?
Q Let me change the question. Isn't it true that this
year for the first time you have initiated son® faculty deseg
regation I mean, some coaching desegregation at Park View
school?
A Yes.
Q And that the person that you have assigned to the
coaching faculty at Park View has the -- the Negro person has
the least rank among four coaches over there?
A I can't answer a question like that. I don't know
whether ha has the least brains or not.
Q Least rank.
A I'ra sorry, I misunderstood you. He is assigned as
assistant coach, yes, if you tern it that way, yes.
Q Isn't it true that when you opened Park View, all
of the major administrative posts in that particular position
were filled with white personnel?
A Yes.
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CTlO.sr; EXAMINATION Fowler 269
Q And isn’t it true that all of the department heads
and the like in that school are scheduled to be x̂ hite?
A No, it's not true.
Q Name one whom you plan to have who is a Negro.
A The department of music.
Q The department of music?
A Yes, vocal.
Q How many people will be in that department?
A Wall, of course, as we open Park View, we don’t have
very many people in any department. For the coming year, we
have one.
Q How many Negroes do you have within Park View who
have supervisory responsibility in some form or another,
or department head responsibility over a number of other
teachers within that school?
A Hone.
Q Are teachers paid on the basis of — in addition to
the salary schedule extra duties?
A Yes.
Q So that a teacher who is also a department head, or
has administrative positions like Vice Principal or Dean of
Men or Dean of Ubmen, would be given extra pay for the extra
work?
A We have a salary schedule for Vice Principal and
those persons serving as department heads are paid a stipend,
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270CROSS SXAHIHA'iIC51-I - Fowler
Q What is that amount?
A $185.00 a year.
Q Do you knot# of a single Negro teacher in a predominar
white school who is a department head exercising supervisory
control or some kind of authority over white teachers beneath
them?
A Bo I know?
Q Yes.
A No, X don’t know.
Q Do you know whether many of the teachers you have
assigned,or propose to assign, to formerly white schools have
been department heads in the schools frcm which they have bee
assigned had other special duties which were remunerative?
A None have been department heads. I don’t recall
whether any have been in a situation where they did what we
calinexfcra duty5.*
Q What about Mr. Holmes, who I understand will be
assigned to Hall High School possibly this next year?
A I don’t know, Mr. Walker. He was not a department
head.
Q You don’t know whether he had extra duty at Horace
Mann High School?
A I don’t know.
Q Has he returned his contract to you?
A Yea.
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Fowler 271
Q For Hall High School?
A Yes.
Q Do you know whether that contract will cause him to
earn less money at Hall High School then he earned at Horace
Mann?
A I do not know. May I -~
Q Yes.
A As far as salary is concerned, ha will not earn less,
If he had extra duty at Horace Mann, I don't know.
Q Do you know of any Negro teachers in white schools
who have extra duty assignments?—
A Yes.
Q -- that are remunerative?
A Yes.
Q Which schools, and how many?
A Off-hand, I recall Pulaski Heights Junior High School
and it seems to me, Central.
Q What positions?
A Mr. Walker, I'd have to check the record.
Q You don't know?
A I only recall Pulaski Heights Junior High School, anc
this young man is the industrial arts teacher.
Q What extra duty does he have?
A I don't know. I don't see the actual assignments;
all I see is that he is on extra duty. We govern ourselves
CROSS EXAMINATION -
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accordingly as far as his contract and paying him is concerned
-3SSST •-
0 He is the only one that you know of
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, you are running this into
the ground. Let's pass on.
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Isn't it true that this year, you assigned a white
person without experience who was a recent graduate of a
southwest conference college to be assistant coach at Horace
Mann?
A Yes.
THE COURT: Do you mean conference or college?
MR. WALKER: Southwest conference college.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q And at the time you did this there were Negro person?
with applications on file, whose paper qualifications were
superior to this particular person?
A Only one, Mr. Walker.
Q Only one?
A Yes.
Q Has that person had an application on file in the
school district for several years for a coaching position
in the Little Rock schools?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 272 ,
A I only saw it this year.
Q Did he advise you at any time that it has been on
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CROSS EXAMINATION - F o w ler 273
file for several years?
A I have not talked to this young man in person.
Q You have not interviewed him?
A No.
Q I asked you on page 39 of your deposition, isn't it
true you had one set of standards for assigning coaches to
Negro schools, and another set of standards for assigning
coaches to white schools, meaning, of course, the same stai
of race?
A Yes.
Q That is true?
A Yes.
Q Now, these persons that you have identified in the
number 74, 51 white persons and 23 Negroes, you included
yourself and two administrative staff people?
A Yes .
Q Are those two administrative staff people Mrs. Caruth
and Mr. Hill?
A Yes.
Q Now, isn't it true that the other people that you
identified are not what you would call district employees, as
such, but that they work in federal programs?
A Soma of them are district employed, Mr. Walker.
Q How many of these would be district employees,paid
only by district funds?
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InJJlitoCl' iWu'ilisATION - Fowler 274
A Mr. Walker, I have total numbers included here, and
1 don't really know. I would have to get the record.
Q But isn't it true that the bulk of these are paid
from Public Law 89.10 funds or federal programs?
A I would say the majority, yes.
Q Have you been given a directive since the last board
to do anything specific about faculty desegregation? When X
say "the last board", I mean the board which was constituted
between March, 1966, and March, 1967. The board that became
constituted in March, 1968, has it directed you to do anything
specific by way of faculty desegregation, and given you the
tools to work with?
A You mean in terms of numbers?
Q Yes.
A No.
Q Have you felt,as Superintendent of Schools, that you
could proceed in this area without direction from the board?
A Yes.
MR. WALKER: No more questions.
MR. FRIDAY: I have about two questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q There were questions about whether you used racial
standards in employing coaches. You don't mean you have
employed coaches to maintain segregation do you, Mr. Fowler?
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u-IIMATION - fowler 27 5
A Mo. '
Q As a matter of fact, did you not offer the coach
position at Park View to a Negro, and he declined it?
A The coaching position or --
Q You tell me.
A We offered the head coaching position at Park View
to a Negro, and he declined it.
Q Then did you feel you picked the best applicant you
had available for the job?
A Yes.
Q Did you actually read the Clark decision n or about
the time you assumed your duties, or talked to me about it
concerning teacher or staff desegregation, Mr. Fowler?
A Yes.
Q And you have been acquainted with that all the time?
A Yes, I have.
Q And I believe your testimony was proceeding under
that you had gotten all that you could get.
A Yes, that is my statement.
Q I don’t believe 1 asked you this question that goes
squarely to the issue here. Would you give the Court your
views as to whether it would be disruptive and have an adverse
educational effect if there were any substantial changes in
staff assignments for September, 1968?
A I think it would be quite disruptive.
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MR. FRIDAY: That is all I have, Yoyg,Honor.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Isn't it true the man you were talking about, the
man you identified or referred to as being offered the positi
of coach afe Park View was Mr. Elders, who is now head coach
at Horace Marin for basketball?
A Yes.
Q And isn't it true that Parle View would not be opening
this year according to your plans as you stated them to him,
as a full senior high school?
A This is true.
Q Isn't it true he would not be able to field a team
against Central High School and Horace Mann High School and
Hall High School his first year —
A Yes.
Q --or his second year?
A Right.
THE COURT: You are giving his reasons for not
accepting. I don't know what that has to do with it, Mr.
Walker.
MR. WALKER: I want to raise the inference to the
RECROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 276
Court that there were reasons why a Negro person given the
opportunity to assume a head coaching job in a formerly white
school, would turn them down.
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RFC ROS r; EX A TAIN AT ION TV / I or 277
THE COURT: That was his own affair**.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we are trying to show the
issue of race is still here.
THE COURT: I don't recognise it in this particular
case.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Do you know of any other basketball coaches within
the system who hold head coaching positions within the
school system, persons responsible for the athletic program
of a particular school? Do you understand my question?
A Basketball?
Q Isn't it true ordinarily in Central High School or
Horace Mann High School or Hall High School, the football coac
is the one responsible for the athletic program within that
school?
A I think this is generally true, yes.
Q Historically. Can you say, without a doubt in your
mind, that Mr. Elders clearly understood he was being offered
the head coaching position despite his being a basketball coac
at the ParkView School?
A Can I say without a doubt he understood it?
Q Yes.
A I can't say without a doubt that he understood it.
MR. WALKER: Thank you.
MR. FRIDAY: No questions.
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THE COURT: You may step down, M m Fowler.
(Witness excused.)
MR. FRIDAY: Solely for the purpose of the record,
I want to simply point out that the statement read by Mr. Walke:
was my statement in the brief to the Court of Appeals. I had
Mr. Parsons testify and explain those figures on direct testirr.o
It's in the record; Mitchell School was the primary difficulty.
I simply want the record to reflect this.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Meeks 279
Thereupon,
!
WILLIAM R. MEEKS, JR.
having been called as a witness by counsel for defendants,
and having first been duly sworn, was examined and testified
as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q State your name.
A William R. Meeks, Jr.
Q Where do you live, Mr. Meeks?
A 301 Del Rio Drive, Little Rock.
Q How long have you lived in Little Rock?
A All my life.
Q What's your business, your profession?
A I am a partner in Block-Meeks Realty Company in
Little Rock.
Q What is your position with the Little Rock School
District?
A I am a member of the board of directors of the
Little Rock School District.
Q Do you hold an office on the board?
A Yes, sir, I’m vice president of the board.
Q Do you have any connection with a desegregation
committee that's been appointed by the board?
A Yes, I was appointed chairman of the committee by
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - M eeks 280
Dr. Barron.
Q All right, Mr. Meeks, as chairman of that com
mittee, have you called various meetings of the committee?
A Yes, sir.
Q Have you maintained, minutes of the meetings?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, let me state for the
record that I am going to offer into evidence minutes
of these meetings. I am not going to have him testify
in detail what is in them.
There are statements in them, obviously, from
third parties who are not here. These statements are
not introduced for the truth of them, but simply to get
in the record what this committee has been doing and
that it has been pursuing its objective.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Now, to go down --
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I will not consent to
their being --
THE COURT: I can’t hear you, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I will not consent to
their being introduced as to the truth of the statements con
tained therein. I will say that, these are -- it is stipulated
these are what the board or committee purports to be of what
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happened. That's about as far as we could eu-.
THE COURT: As I understnad it, these are the
minutes of the committee. Is that what they are?
MR. FRIDAY: The desegregation committee. This
is minutes of their meetings, and I prefaced it that we didn't
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Meeks 281
have
THE COURT: That’s right.
MR. FRIDAY: They do take some out of court
statements, Your Honor.
THE COURT: How shall we mark them?
MR. FRIDAY: Defendant's Exhibit No. 19, which
is an exhibit consisting over-all of 42 pages.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Mr. Meeks, go with me now. We're going to sho
this. It purports to cover the following:
First, the minutes of the meeting held June 12,
1968. Second, the notice given by the committee for a public
hearing. Third, the minutes of the public hearing held
June 26, 1968. Fourth, the minutes of the meeting held July
1, 1968. Fifth, the minutes of a meeting held July 11, 1968.
Sixth, the minutes of a meeting held July 17, 1968.
Next -- and I’ve lost count of the number -- the
minutes held July 22, 1968. Next, the minutes of a meeting
held July 29, 1968. Next, the minutes of a meeting held
August 6, 1968.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Meeks 282
You do identify these as copies of the minutes of
the desegregation committee, is that correct, Mr. Meeks?
A Yes, sir.
I
Q All right.
MR. FRIDAY: These are offered into evidence,
Your Honor, as Defendant’s Exhibit No. 19
THE COURT: They will be received.
(The document heretofore referred
to was marked Defendant's Exhibit
No. 19 for identification, and
was received in evidence.)
MR. FRIDAY: The record already reflects, Your
Honor, that Mr. Meeks' position on the issue before the Court,
as we see it, is set forth in the resolution of the board
which is in evidence as Defendant's Exhibit No. 17.
The same is true of the remaining members of the
board, who are present in the courtroom, in view of the
evidence being in that they voted for it, and that is their
position.
I do state for the record that Mr. Winslow
Drummond was not present at that meeting, being unavoidably
out of the state. Actually, Mr. Drummond was in Canada and
could not get back, is my understanding. Therefore, note
in the record lis absence from the meeting and his absence from
the courtroom.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 283
With that, we rest, Your Honor.
Of course, he may cross examine, but that is all
I'm going to put on.
THE COURT: All right.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR.WALKER:
Q What specific action has been recommended to
achieve a unitary school system by your committee, other than
that the committee approved a motion by Mr. Charlie Brown to
the effect that the committee requests the staff to immedi
ately begin to formulate a plan or plans for the division of
the school system into compulsory attendance zones, and to
formulate a plan for the reassignment of the faculty to each
school based upon the ratio of white to Negro teachers in the
system, and to request the staff to suggest to the committee i.
and all other alternative plans of time schedules which
appear educationally sound and that the committee continue
to study all proposals?
What other specific action has been taken by the
committee and presented to the board than this?
A As far as the promulgation of the plan and the
recommendation of a particular plan, there has been no other
recommendation of a particular plan of the committee.
THE COURT: Mr. Meeks, will you please speak
louder?
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U l U J L rnmrrrmtt r c m ULEA.il
284
TUB WITNESS: Yes, sir.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q And this recommendation was adopted, isn't it
true, on Monday, July 22nd, subsequent to the Judge's letter
dated July 19, 1968.
A That's correct. I believe the date was July 18th
Q July 18th. So the committee hasn’t received --
hasn't made any other report or recommendation or anything?
A No, we have made no definite recommendations as
far as particular plans are concerned.
Q All right. How long has the committee been
meeting?
A Our first meeting was on Jun 12th.
Q So that was June, July and August.
A Yes.
Q Nov;, you are vice president of the board?
A That's correct.
Q Do you know whether you have a negotiated agree
ment with the Classroom Teachers Association?
A There was an agreement signed in August, 1967.
THE COURT: Mr. Meeks, I dislike to keep asking
you but you're speaking too low.
THE WITNESS: Theree was an agreement signed in
August, 1967, which was -- I don't know the term negotiated
agreement. There was an agreement with C.T.A. signed origi-
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EXAMINATION - Meeks 285
nally, I believe, in August, 1967.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Did that agreement, among other things, purport
to guarantee teachers that they would not be assigned to a
school until they had been given ninety days prior notice of
their assignments?
A Mr. Walker, I believe the teacher contracts
referred to the Policy Book of the Little Rock School District
and were incorporated by reference, and what that exact
stipulation is, I do not know.
Q You do not.
Now, you are a real estate broker, is that true?
A Yes.
Q And how long have you been in the real estate busi
ness in Little Rock?
A I’ve been in the real estate business and resi
dential construction business since I graduated from the
University of Arkansas in 1957. Approximately 21 years.
Q Now, I want to ask you one or two questions about
the residential patterns of the community.
Are you the only realtor member of the board?
A Yes, sir.
Q Have you received any awards from the Realtors
Association in the last year?
A Yes, sir.
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CROCS EXAMINATION - Meeks 286
Q What was that?
A I was Realtor of the Year for 1967 for Little
Rock.
Q I see. I want to hand you your deposition, Mr.
Meeks and ask you for the purpose of brevity to describe the
residential living patters as of 1954, the time of the Brown
decision, as you understood theta to be, in the City of Little
Rock.
A As of 1954?
Q Yes. Look at the deposition. The page that
I refer to is six.
Now, starting -- would you mind looking at the
map and describing this map in terms of the racial composition
as it moves from east to west and north to south, in 1954?
A In 1954?
Q Yes.
A Beginning on the — you are talking about the
city limits of Little Rock, or the Little Rock School District?
Q Little Rock School District.
A Beginning at the east extremity of the Little
Rock School District which is the airport, the area immediate
ly along the south boundary and the north boundary of the
airport was predominantly Negro. The area immediately west
of the airport for some six or eight blocks was predominantly
Negro. The area on west from thatpoint to, I would say, in
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 287
the area of Broadway or perhaps Arch Street generally,
I think, an integrated area to the south of that area and
a largely Negro area to the north.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, would you address your
attention to the area south of -- that would be 14th street.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Go ahead.
A Generally the area to the north.
THE COURT: Speaker louder, please.
THE WITNESS: All right. The area north of
West Eighth Street.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Go ahead.
A And east of perhaps the State Capitol which
is integrated and predominantly all-Negro area, and the
south extremeties of those streets, south on Chester, Arch
Gaines and that area in there was — down to approximately
25th Street, was a white area with some Negro residences and
south of 25th Street, well at that time it was about the
same composition, probably an integrated area.
THE COURT: I can hardly hear you myself. Forget
that you are talking to Mr. Walker because he is standing
rather close to you. Imagine you are talking at least out
to that rail.
THE WITNESS: All right. The area then that was
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eeks 288
west of, you might say the State Capitol grounds was predontinan
ly a white area west to University Avenue except areas along
Wright Avenue and 25th Street which there were some Negro
families living in there. In fact there was a considerable
Negro community type area on just north of the area of the
intersection of Wright Avenue and 2.5th Street, and then there
was a concentration of Negro families in the area generally
described as south of the existing or present Medical Center.
Q Would that be over in this area?
A More south of that area.
Q All right.
A And then the area on the north extremity of
University Avenue going toward the river west including
Kingwood, Normandy area and the area along highway 10 and
coming south generally on what was then south Hays Street
was predominantly white area and going south on University,
existing University Avenue to John Barrow and what is today
the Broadmoor Area was in the area west of Broadmoor and
John Burrow was an integrated area and near the intersection
of 12th Street and South University at that time there was an
integrated area at that location.
Q So right around Hall High School in 1954 --
there was no Hall, of course, at that time --
A That's right.
Q Around Hays there was a considerable number
of Negro families in that area. Is that true?
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EXAMINATION - Meeks 289
A Well, beginning at 12th and University north
there were a considerable number of Negro families in the
area of 12th and University and also a settlement north and
west of the existing Hall High School building.
Q And over in the John Barrow Addition there were
a number of Negroes in that area. Is that true?
A That's correct.
Q And in between in an area knew as University Park
there were a large number of Negroes, isn't that true?
A Well, it's in between, but it is to the east
of being directly between.
Q All right. Now, since the construction of Hall.
High School, has there been a urban renewal project in that
area?
A There has been an urban renewal project in the
area of 12th and University.
Q 12th and University?
A Yes.
Q Ha*e most of the Negroes who lived east of Hall
High School within the project area which extends over
how far?
A There were none east of Hall High, southeast.
Q Southeast? Southeast, I mean.
A The ones in the University Park project, it is
a clearance area and they have moved.
CROSS
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 290
Q They have all gone?
A Yes.
Q What about the ones who lived to the west of
Hall High School?
A Some are there and some have moved out.
Q But only a handful are there now. Is that
correct?
A Well, I would say there is a small number. I
do not know how many.
Q So that it was in the Hall area listed here,
it5 s true that there are only a few Negroes in that area?
A I think that is a correct assumption, yes.
Q And the urban renewal project is responsible in
part for eliminating the integrated area in that area known
as University Park?
A Yes. It has elirainated the integrated situation
that was there, but it is being replaced by the same thing,
to an extent.
Q Maybe?
A To an extent.
Q You don't know that for a fact though?
A Well, I know that some of the lots in the area
north of West Twelfth Street have been purched by Negroes.
Q All right. Now, was there another urban renewal
project subsequent to 1954 in the area known as West Rock?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 291
A Yes.
Q I see. And what happened to those Negro families
who lived in there?
A Where the individual families went, I do not
know. It is a clearance area.
Q Who were they replaced by in terms of race of
persons when the area was redeveloped?
A The area was redeveloped into commercial develop
ment, also some residential and apartments which are
occuppied at this time by whites.
Q Only whites. In this area along Highway 10?
A Cantrell Road, yes.
Q I see. Now, are you familiar with the other
urban renewal projects in the city?
A Generally, yes, sir.
Q Is not there one around the Granite Mountain
area, was not there one then?
A Yes.
Q
renewal?
Was not it an integrated area before urban
A To some extent.
Q After urban renewal was it an integrated area?
A I cannot answer it specifically. There may be
some white in it, it is predominantly Negro.
Q This is the area where Gilliam School, Washington
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School are located?
A No, sir. Gilliam and Granite Heights.
Q Gilliam and Granite Heights and Horace Mann is
out that way?
A It is a mile and a half to the north.
Q Now, was there also another urban renewal project
known as the Live Stock Coliseum Area?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was that an integrated area in 1954?
A Yes.
Q What is the racial composition of the Live
Stock Coliseum area now?
A It's still an integrated area. I think the
number of Negroes in the area has increased.
Q Substantially?
A I won’t qualify it. I just know there are some
there.
Q Ish School was located in the midst of that
urban renewal area. Isn't that true?
A No. Ish is, I think, in the High Street area.
It's close to the Coliseum area.
Q Now in the High Street area was that an integrated
area?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 292
A The southern part was integrated. The northern
part was predominantly Negro.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 293
Q All right. Have there been any changes in the
living patterns since urban renewal went in there?
A Well, this was not a total clearance project, and
It’s still in execution. It is a project of selective
clearance on a slum clearance basis and as I say it is
still in progress. There are some new homes being built in the
area and quite a bit of remodeling . As far as the changing
of the racial composition of the area, I think it is fair
to say that the number of Negroes has increased.
Q Substantially.
A Again, you will have to talk about a particular
area.
Q What about around Central High School. How has
the racial composition of that area changed since 1954?
A Generally north of West 25th Street and east
of High Street in 1954 for several blocks west of High Street
there was almost a completely white area which at this time
it is almost a completely Negro area and that is south of
roughly Sixteenth Street.
Q Now what was the racial composition in 1954 of
the area east of Broadway back to say around the airport, this
dividing line here which is Sherman, Barber, McGowan
and that area in there?
A Well, if you want to run approximately from
Broadway back to the railroad which is just west of the airport
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 294
which I think includes the whole area you are speaking of,
the composition of the races in the northern part of that
sector has remained approximately the same. The racial
composition of the population in the south part of that sector
has increased, I think, as far as the number of Negroes is
concerned but not substantially.
Q Isn't it true that you have considerably more
Negroes though in this part of the city in 1968 in terms
of percentages than you had in 1954?
A Yes, I said that it had increased. Yes.
Q Mr. Meeks, do you know, as a realtor, could you
state whether any real estate brokers who were white that you
know promoted sales to Negroes in white subdivisions that were
being developed?
A Up to this time, I know of none.
Q I see. What is the situation with regard to
housing segregation in the western part of the city? I mean
would a realtor to your knowledge up until say the last month
or two or three months ago willingly sell to a Negro person
in say Colony West, Leawood?
A May I put that on a general basis?
Q Yes.
A I would have to generalise and say I don’t know
of any that would have.
Q Don't the realtors in Little Rock, as in most
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CROSS EXAMINATION - M eeks 295
places, have a policy whereby they will not encourage what is
known as block-busting?
A What is block-busting. Yes.
Q They have a policy where they will not encourage
what is known as block-busting.
A We might out to define block-busting.
Q Would you do that, please?
A Yes. Block-busting, in my opinion, is the
policy of someone buying one house in a block where the block
is predominantly white in an area which is or could be
turning to Negro and using the fact they have bought a house
in thatblock and will sell to Negroes it will run the
house prices down for the whites to sell at a low price and
then turn around and sell it at a higher price to colored
prospects. We have a policy as realtors specifically not to
encourage that policy to any extent and I might say that I am
proud of the way the white people and the Negroes have re
acted in the changing ai*eas of the town where the areas have
changed to where there has been practically no difficulty in
understanding between races in that context.
Q Would you identify the subdivisions west of
University that have developed since 1954?
A Have you got all afternoon?
Q Walton Heights?
A Let's start at University.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 296
THE COURT: You can have until noon, if you
will look at the clock.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q We can stipulate that all this subdivision
that have developed since 1954 within the part west, the
section west of University Avenue --
A No, sir.
Q -- have been all-white. All the subdivisions
developed since 1954 in the western part of Little Rock,
subdivisions have been all-white. Isn’t that true?
A Yes, part of the subdivisions west of University
were developed prior to 1954.
Q But the ones that were developed since 1954,
or completed sine/. 1954 to the point where you are now, are
all-white?
A Yes, unless you want to say John Barrow Addition
is west of University, but it isn’t. It is a variance.
Q You would not call John Barrow addition a sub
division developed by subdividers in the city, would you?
A Well, some have built houses out there and in that
instance they have encouraged --
Q But it is not a planned subdivision as the others
are. Isn’t that true?
A Well, we can say that, I think, yes.
THE COURT: We will adjourn until 1:15.
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297
(Whereupon, at 12:00 o’clock, noon, th^above-entitled
proceedings were in recess, to reconvene at 1:15 o’clock, p.n.,
the afternoon of the same day.)
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CROSS EXAMINATION - M eeks 293
AFTERNOON SESSION
Thereupon,
WILLIAM R. MEEKS, JR.
1:15 p.m.
having been previously called as a witness, and having pre
viously been duly sworn, resumed the stand and was further
examined and testified as follows:
CROSS EXAMINATION - Resumed
BY MS. WALKER:
Q I don't think I have any more questions -- let
me ask one or two more. Mr. Meeks, would the Parsons Plan
in your judgment as a board member
THE COURT: I can't hear you.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Would the Parsons Plan, in your judgment as a
board member, be a better desegregation plan for getting
Hall High School integrated than the geographic zoning plan
which you have prepared which you have before you as an
exhibit?
A The Parsons Plan itself, would --
Q Using the zone lines that he had.
A The Parsons Plan would have eliminated Horace
Mann High School and would have increased the amount of
integration at Hall High School.
Q Let me say, using the zone lines or similar
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 299
lines on east west basis that Mr. Parsons dre^T would that
have brought about more substantial desegregation,in your
judgment as a board member than the present plan which is
drawn and shown there to you in Exhibit 14?
A It would have increased integration in numbers,
yes.
j
Q Has the board during your time on the board
directed the administrative staff to prepare an alternative
which took into account a system of pairing schools?
The question is, have you directed the adminis
trative staff to prepare a pairing alternative to freedom of
choice?
A No, sir.
Q Have you directed the staff to prepare information
for you, having in minda feeder system of desegregation?
A In this context, that as Mr. Roberts explained
to us that in effect the zoning map he has drawn up would be
a feeder system to an extent from the elementary schools to
junior high schools.
Q But have you directed the administrative staff
to prepare something, a plan along the line of a feeder system?
A Not specifically, no, sir.
Q So then other than this plan that was prepared
at the direction of the Court, the board has not prepared any
alternative, or directed the staff to prepare any alternative?
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GROGS EXAMINATION - Meeks 300
A Well, let me say this. The committee has, and
I think the minutes that were introduced will reflect some
15 or 18 suggestions, not necessarily plans, but there have
been some alternates to our existing freedom of choice suggest
ed as well as alterations, perhaps, as we see in the alterna
tives to the zoning.
These plans and alternates to various plans have been
discussed and that is one of the reasons, I think,that they
should be considered in arriving at a permanent solution or
a permanent plan for the Little Rock School District and
that is one of the reasons, at least for my reason that we
needed the request of time to evaluate the various suggestions
which have been made to the Committee and by various members
of the committee. For instance, a similar type proposal that
Mr. Woods and I presented for a reservation of a certain
number of spaces in the particular schools for students of the
minority race.
Q I am asking — the question was, have you given
any specific directions to the administrative staff to come
up with another kind of a plan for you other than the freedom
of choice?
A Well, of course, the staff has been studying
along with the committee the various proposals and upon
receipt of the Judge's letter, as far as I was concerned, that
is what we had to do and we did it as effectively and efficient
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 301
ly as possible by not just drawing lines arbitrarily, but
by drawing lines with specific pupil counts that would be
in attendance at the various school plans.
Q My question is, the committee nor the board
gave any specific directions to the staff to prepare an
alternative to freedom of choice other than the alternative
suggested by the district court?
A No, sir.
Q Is your answer -- okay.
Now, do you feel that the geographical attendance
area plan that has been devised is a solution to the desegrega
tion problems of the district?
A Mr. Walker, we are talking at this time a matter
of degree. It certainly is, or could be the ultimate solution.
I don’t want to make an evaluation. I frankly have not had
time to evaluate it along with the other suggestions that have
been made to the committee or to the staff or to the board.
Q Isn’t it likely that if you adopt a geographic
attendance area plan which has a small number of Negro pupils
In enrollment in the east side schools that are predicted,
based on your experience as a realtor and member of the board,
that you will have re-segregation in terms of the neighborhoods
in these communities in that white pupils will do their best
to move out of minority situations?
A Mr. Walker, that certainly is a possibility, but
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 302
it is also a possibility with any plan for this, reason. I
believe from the information that has been presented to the
Court from 1960 to 1968, the number of Negro students in the
Little Rock School District has increased 50 percent.
Q Well, my point is, your experience as a board
member and as a realtor in the community leads you to conclude
that as Negroes move into an area and begin to become large
number- in that school, the whites in that particular area
tend to move out cr choose other schools?
A I would say there is a tendency for that, yes.
Q And that did happen with Mitchell and it is
happening at West Side. Is that your experience?
A That is true.
Q Do you have any experience as a board member or
as a realtor which would lead you to conclude that whites in
large numbers move into predominantly black areas for the
purpose of bringing about a different kind of community?
A Now, that whites move in --
Q Do you have any experience with large numbers of
whites moving into all black areas?
A There are some instances. I would not say it
was a general tendency, The new apartment buildings that have
been built on the east side. I think there are some specific
cases. It Is not a general situation.
MR. WALKER: 1 don't think I have any more
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REDIRECT AND RECURS - Meeks 303
quest ions o f Mr. Meeks.
THE COURT: Is there anything further, Mr. Friday?
MR. FRIDAY: One question. I don’t believe this
was in the record, I didn’t understand part of it.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q He questioned you on the situation around Hall
High about 1954. As a realtor, do you knew when the school
district acquired those sites?
A I believe in 1953.
Q '53?
A Yes, sir.
MR. FRIDAY: I have nothing else.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Do you know that, Mr. Meeks?
A They acquired Hall in 1953.
Q Do you know that?
A Yes.
Q Do you know that they acquired Forrest Heights
in ’53?
A I believe they acquired Forrest Heights at
approximately the same time.
Q But isn't it a fact that construction was not
begun on either one of those school sites until after 1954?
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klLLkUoi> - H e c k s 304
Isn’t that true?
A I cannot state positively it did not start prior
to then. It did not finish until after 1954, I know that.
Q At the time this matter was first litigated in
1956, the construction of Hall High School was not under way
at that time was it?
A I do not know, Mr. Walker.
THE COURT: You may step down.
(The witness was excused.)
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CROSS EXAMINATION - R e c a l le d - P a r so n s 305
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, having pTOtnaturely rested
before, the defendants —
THE COURT: Hadn't you better recall Mr. Parsons?
MR. WALKER: I want to finish Mr. Parsons.
MR. FRIDAY: All right, I'll wait until Mr. Walker
finishes his cross examination.
THE COURT: I think that would be better.
Mr. Parsons, will you come around?
Thereupon,
FLOYD W. PARSONS
having been previously called as a witness by counsel for
defendants, and having previously been duly sworn, was recalled
for examination, and was examined and testified further as
follows:
CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, did you at any time prior to July 15,
1968, ever approach the Classroom Teachers Organization through
their elected representatives in a body, and ask them to assist
the district in working out a satisfactory faculty desegrega
tion plan?
A Not to my knowledge. As a body, you mean the mem
bership of the Classroom Teachers Associations?
Q Yes. The membership or their leaders as a body.
A I have on many occasions, their leaders.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled - Parsons 306
Q I mean the leaders, as a body, not individually.
JOBS- ■' -
A The leaders as a body, yes.
Q Who were the leaders that you did that?
A I certainly could not name all of them, but Mr.--
I'rn talking about Mr. O'Cain, Mrs. Glover, and Mrs. Ellison,
and people like that.
Q And asked them to help you formulate a desegrega
tion plan?
A Not to formulate a plan, but to assist in every
way possible in the implementation of faculty desegregation.
Q Did you ask them to assist in this lawsuit?
A No, I told them that they had a right to express
themselves in connection with the lawsuit, not delineating at
all my position or any position they should take.
Q Did you outline to them four alternatives that
were available to them?
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I don't know what the
issue is.
THE COURT; There isn't an issue, and it doesn't
amount to a hill of beans.
MR. FRIDAY: The Court has already said they could
intervene.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I think that this defend
ant's action borders on contempt.
THE COURT: I beg your pardon?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - R e c a l le d - P a r so n s 307
MR. WALKER: I think this defendant's action horde
on contempt.
THE COURT: Which defendant?
MR. WALKER: This defendant, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You mean Mr. Parsons?
MR. WALKER: Mr. Parsons.
THE COURT: For doing what?
MR. WALKER: For actively encouraging — and I'd
like to put on evidence on this --- Classroom Teachers to take
a position in opposition to complete desegregation for the
1968-69 school year.
THE COURT: As the record stands, your statement
is completely without foundation.
MR. WALKER: I would like to put on proof.
THE COURT: You have Mr. Parsons on the stand.
Proceed with your cross examination.
MR. WALKER: May I continue?
THE COURT: What i s your question?
MR. WALKER: Would you read it back, please?
(The reporter read the question, as request
ed. )
THE WITNESS: I surely may have. I do not at the
moment remember the four alternatives. If you have them there,
this was done orally by me and if I did and you have them and
will read them to me —
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TIIE COURT: If you don't know, Mr. Parsons, tell us
you don't know.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q You don 11 know?
A Mo.
Q Do you recall whether you asked Principals Round
table to take a position in opposition to complete desegrega
tion?
A I did not.
Q Had you ever sought the assistance of the Principal
Roundtable before in arriving in a plan of desegregation or a
position to be presented to the Court?
A Only in terms of discussing with them the problems
relating to faculty desegregation and requesting them to assist
Q Did they take any position with reference to your
last request and, of so, what was their position?
A They did take a position and sent a very brief
note to my office saying that their position was that whatever
the decision the board made concerning this matter, they would
support and make every effort to implement it.
Q Isn’t it true that they took that position —
isn't it true they said they would support any position taken
by the board and approved by the Court, putting it that way?
A Maybe they did.
CROSS EXAMINATION - R e c a l le d - P a r so n s 308
THE COURT: I regard it as completely immaterial,
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled - Parsons 309
Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: I will dispense with that with this
witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Your dissent is on the record. Go to
another subject.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, do you still stand by the Oregon re
report for what is purported to achieve?
A I don't knov? what you mean by "do you still stand
by the Oregon report".
Q All right, then, do you still agree with the State
ment of General Information that you have included herein, the
history -- let me go down to it item by item.
THE COURT: Is that the paragraph you read the
other day?
MR. WALKER: No, Your Honor.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Do you still perceive the history and overview of
the problem in the same manner as you did in January of 1968?
A You're talking about Oregon report. I did not
write the Oregon report.
Q I'm talking about the Parsons report right now.
A You said Oregon report.
Q You're right.
Now, the Parsons report, did you still have the
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CROSS EXAMINATION ~ R e c a l le d - P a r so n s 310
same viewpoint insofar as the history and overview of the pro
blem is concerned?
A I have answered that previously, yes, and 1 answer
it as yes now.
Q Would you still make the recommendations that you
made in the Parsons Plan, as a plan which would help the board
to move toward more desegregation than you have?
A There certainly might be given areas within the
plan itself where we might see,if we studied it carefully,
where it could be improved. To say that I would recommend
identically the same thing today, I would not be in any positic
to say that.
Q Now, did you at any time recommend that Park View
be opened as an elementary school?
A Not to my recollection, no.
Q Did the Oregon Report or Dr. Goldhammer ever
recommend that it be opened as an elementary school?
A Not that I recall.
Q What was the recommendation of the Oregon team as
to the use of Park View?
A I do not recall the recommendation.
Q Do you recall stating in a board meeting that the
Oregon team said that it was all right for you to go ahead and
build the school^and it could be used either as a junior high,
middle grade school, grades nine, ten and eleven, or as a
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CROSS EXAMINATION - R e c a l le d - P a r so n s 311
senior high school?
A If the board minutes reflect that, this is what I
said, I !m sure. I do recall saying that Dr. Goldhammer had
placed his stamp of approval on the construction of Park View
School, and that it should be a school, without designation.
Q All right, Mr. Parsons. Just one or two other
qiestions for information.
Isn’t it true that the young Townsend intervenor
sought application to the Hall High School and was denied
because of the fact, for this 1968-69 year, that it was over
crowded?
A I ’m not aware of this, no.
Q Since this lawsuit, you haven’t checked to see
whether or not ~~
A No, I haven’t. It's so stated in the suit that
she did seek admission.
Q You have no reason to believe that that’s not true?
A No, I have no reason to believe that is not true.
Q Now, at the close of my complaint, Booker Junior
High School, Ish and Gilliam were all named for Negro citizens
of Little Rock, is that true?
A Correct.
Q 1 don't think we identified a couple of schools
yesterday. I want to get this straight, too, as being con
structed since 1956.
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My records show that Bale was constructed in 1959;
Brady, 1961; Terry, 1965, and Williams, 1961. Is that approxi
mately correct?
A Mr. Walker, I would not question all of your state
ments, but certainly I came here in 1961, and Bale was a long-
established school in this system -- in the county system,
and had been annexed to the Little Rock School District in 1961
Q All right. Is it true that the Housing Authority
selected the site on which Ish School is located?
A No, this is not true that the Housing Authority
selected the site. We did work with the Housing Authority in
the process of selecting the site.
Q But they did recommend that particular site.
A Not by lot and block, but the general area.
Q But the general area.
A In the general area, yes.
Q And isn't it true that the Housing Authority also
recommeded a site and their recommendation was approved for
construction of an elementary school on West Twelfth Street?
A Not to my knewledge. Are you talking abou t -- are
you talking about the other side of University Avenue?
Q Yes.
A All right. No, they didn't recommend. They merely
CROSS EXAMINATION __ Recalled - Parsons 312
requested us to consider whether or not a site would be needed
there in terms of the projected construction that would occur
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xtfithin the area. I would not call it a recommendation.
Q No t , isn't it true that several schools that you
operate in the western part of the city which have been con
structed since 1956 are completely air-conditioned?
A Oh, yes.
Q Which schools are they?
A Henderson Junior High, McDermott, Terry -- this
probably is all.
Q What about carpeting?
A There's carpeting in Terry and McDermott.
Q Is there a carpet in any of the Negro schools?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Is any Negro school fully air-conditioned?
A I'm trying to recall Ish. I’m not sure whether it
is or isn't.
Q Now, would you state the number of portable class
room facilities that you have at Carver School?
A I do not know.
Q There is a large number, would you say?
A Carver?
Q Yes.
A No, I would say there is not a large number.
Q Would there be as many as five?
A I think not-.
Q What about at Pfeifer?
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A Probably four or five at Pfeifer.
Q What pupils are those four or five used to accom
modate?
A They are used to accommodate pupils that are
enrolled in Pfeifer School in grades one through six.
Q Is that to accommodate the overcrowded situation?
A What would be an overcrowded situation, were it not
for the fact that the portable classrooms were there, perhaps.
Q I see. Do you have portable classes, a number of
portable classes, an any of the other Negro schools in the
eastern part of Little Rock?
A Not that I know of.
Q Do you still use the Bush School that was con
structed at the turn of the century?
A Yes.
Q Do you have plans to continue using that school?
A No, we actually do not have. We will for this
coming year, I'm sure, but we do not have plans to continue
over a long period of time.
Q You have plans for the construction of a new school
to replace that?
A We don't — we just do not know.
Q You don't know. You don't have any plans at this
time?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled - Parsons 31Zf
A That's correct.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled - Parsons 315
Q Now, with regard to Rightsell, is it true that you
had an overcrowded situation there last year and year before
last, and that the overcrowded pupils were accommodated at the
school adjacent to Dunbar that had been abandoned?
What was the name of elementary school?
A Adjacent to Dunbar?
Q Yes.
A Gibbs.
Q No, there’s another one that was formerly used as
an elementary school.
A It, too, is Gibbs,
Q It’s called the Old Gibbs School, isn't it?
A That’s correct.
Q And it had been abandoned for use as a school
building, hadn't it?
A But completely remodeled.
Q I see. So the overflow from Rightsell was assigned
for one year, 1966-67, to Old Gibbs, is that true?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Isn’t it true that last year Ish was overcrowded?
A Ish was declared overcrowded, yes.
Q Did you give the pupils in that school second choics
A Oh, yes.
■Q Why did it remain overcrowded for the entire year,
according to your figures?
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A Are you going to cite some figures?
Q Well, I will.
Did you give the pupils at Pfeifer -- what's the
Negro school on the east side?
A Pfeifer.
Q Did you give the Negro pupils who attended those
overcrowded classes a second choice?
A No.
Q You did not?
A No.
Q Did you consider assigning them on some geographic
attendance area basis after the overcrowded condition occurred?
A At Pfeifer?
Q Yes.
A No.
Q Isn’t it true that Carver has been overcrowded the
past two years, and that the pupils have not been given a
second choice of schools?
A No, this is not true.
Q What is the optimum enrollment of Carver, and what
is the enrollment?
A It depends entirely on whose standards you are
talking about.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled - Parsons 316
Q I’m talking about your standards, Mr. Parsons.
A Optimum enrollment?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled - Parsons 317
Q Let me ask you, Mr. Parsons -- I have some figures
here -- whether Ish was built to accommodate approximately a
total of 424 pupils?
A No, Ish has eighteen regular classrooms, I believe.
Q Eighteen regular classrooms?
A And could accommodate -- certainly not optimum,
but certainly could accommodate 540 students, thirty times
eighteen.
Q That is not optimum, though.
A No, it's not, but the Little Rock system has never
been able to operate its program of instruction at the optimum
level.
Q I notice that the Oregon Report cites that Ish
was 121 percent over utilization. Would you call that a fair
statement for 1966-67?
A I do not know what the enrollment at Ish was in
1966-67.
Q But you do know that it was overcrowded?
A Yes, it was overcrowded.
Q What other schools were overcrowded besides Hall
High School?
A I believe those were identified by -- when are
you talking about?
Q This last school year, sir.
THE COURT: I know that Is in the record three or
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled - Parsons 318
four times.
THE WITNESS: It's already in the record, I'm sure.
THE COURT: Let's pass on, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: The point I ’m making, Your Honor, is
that some people were not given the second choice of schools.
THE COURT: We are not talking about choice of
schools, now.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Would you state the average age -- according to
your knowledge -- of the schools attended by Negro pupils on
the eastern part of the city.
A I have never worked this out, including buildings
like Mann and Booker, so it would be most difficult for me to
sit here and average all of this, as you well know.
THE COURT: You just don't know?
THE WITNESS: Ho, I don't.
TEE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Isn’t it true, though, that of the schools that
have been historically identified as Negro, that they have beet
considerably older than the schools that have been constructed,
Xtfhich are now attended by the largest number of white pupils?
A I do not know. I have not analysed it.
Q I thought I could save some time that way.
Would you say the figure set forth as to the dates
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CROSS EXAMINATION - R e c a l le d - P a r so n s 319
that schools were constructed as set out in the Oregon Report
are accurate?
A I’m sure they are accurate.
Q And if those figures are in your report, the}?' would
be accurate?
A Yes.
Q Isn’t it true that the area surrounding all of your
white schools in the western part of the city have paved areas,
and the drainage is good, and those kinds of conditions are
satisfactory?
A I’m sure that the conditions are in reasonablly
good shape. I could not say that they are all in perfect
condition.
Q I understand. Would you say that the same condition
pertains with regard to Carver School?
A To some degree, yes.
Q But it would be a lesser degree; is that right?
A Probably, a lesser degree.
Q And would the same be true of the school located --
well the Ish School? Wasn't it constructed in a rather low
site, a low area?
A Yes, a low area.
Q And when It rains, water goes into the school?
A Well, we didn't have water damage during the last
flooding period we had in Little Rock.
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Q Did you have water going into the school,, though,
Mr. Parsons?
A Not to my knowledge, no.
Q Were pupils not permitted to attend those schools
for several days because of the rain damage?
A Not to my knowledge, in connection with Ish.
Q What schools x̂ ere so situated?
A Mann and Gillam had some water problems. Water
never did get in Gillam, but it almost got in at the floor
level.
Q Mr. Parsons, did you ever do anything to -- did
you ever take any actions to promote to the total community,
acceptance and understanding of the Oregon Plan?
A You would have to separate your question from
acceptance and understanding. I did promote and appeared before
many, many groups discussing the Oregon Plan in terras of
helping them to understand the Oregon Plan.
Q Was this after you had taken the position in
opposition to it?
A Prior to and subsequent thereto.
Q I see. And do you consider the desegregation plan
that you have presented to the Court -- the zoning plan -- to
be a satisfactory, feasible alternative to freedom of choice?
CROSS EXAMINATION ~ Recalled _ Parsons 320
A Probably as an interim measure, yes.
Q How long do you think it will take ultimately to
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CFOSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 321
have the schools completely desegregated in compliance with
the prior orders of this Court?
A I do not know that.
Q I see. Will — in terms of numbers of Negro pupils
in white schools and vice versa -- will the zoning plan which
you have prepared —
THE COURT: The what plan?
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Will the zoning plan,which you have prepared, bring
about more numerical integration than freedom of choice?
A Yes.
Q What would be the number of Negro pupils in formerl
white schools under your plan?
A I do not know the exact number, but it is -- it's
evident that there would be fewer, perhaps, Negro pupils in
the historically identified white schools under the zoning plan
than we find there under the freedom of choice plan. But there
would be more white pupils in the Negro schools under the zonin
plan than we have under the freedom of choice plan.
Q Will there be any change in the number of Negro
pupils in the schools which I shall now identify: McDermott,
Terry, Brady, Jefferson, Fair Park, Western Hills, Meadowcliff,
Pulaski Heights?
A I do not know.
Q You do not know?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 322
A No.
Q Let me give you the figures, Mr. Parsons, because
this is very important. Would you look at your plan, Mr.
Parsons, and tell me the number of Negro pupils in white
schools under freedom of choice at the close of the last
school year. I give you a copy of your plan.
(The above document was handed to the
witness for his use by counsel for
plaintiffs.)
A You didn't show me where it is, though, did you?
Do you know where it is?
Your Honor, may I say that as a witness, I'll accept
the figures that are given here, and i'll accept the figures
given on the map as to what a zoning plan would do; and if
there is either less or more we will still accept these figures.
Would that be acceptable?
MR. WALKER; If they will accept the notion, Your
Honor, that there would be no difference in the particular
schools I have identified under freedom of choice plan -- that
a zoning plan would not bring about greater desegregation in
those schools, then certainly, I would.
THE COURT: He didn't say that.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Would a zoning plan bring about greater desegregati
in those particular schools, than freedom of choice?
o n
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parson s 323 j
A I do not know.
THE COURT: He said that whatever the figures show,
that's the way
MR . WALKER: Figures show that under the zoning pis
none of those schools would have any Negro pupils.
THE COURT: You can figure that out from the
exhibits.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, I want to ask you a few more questions
about these lines.
What standards did you use -- when I say you, I
mean your staff and the board -- in determining how they would
draw those lines?
THE COURT: He is referring to Defendant's Exhibit
No. 12.
MR. WALKER: This really pertains to all the zone
lines drawn.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q I take it the criteria were the same for all; is
that true?
A The criteria were the same for all. We used the
criteria that we would draw geographical attendance zones --
THE COURT: A little louder, Mr. Parsons.
THE WITNESS: We used the criteria that we would
draw geographical attendance zones, attempting to achieve as
CROSS EXAMINATION _ Parsons 324
C.f. 16 1
jmer-much integration as could feasibly be achieved without creatir S
2ife- difficulties in terms of distance from school, and difficultly s
,-v * *••• ; ‘ "
3 in terras of transportation for pupils who were zoned within
4 each attendance area.
5 BY MR. WALKER:
6 Q Is that the only criterion you used?
7 A Yes.
8 Q I notice in your elementary plan, whichis Defendant 1 s
9 Exhibit 12, that in this area here (indicating) where Stephens
10 School is located, you have your zone lines drawn in such a
11 way as to encompass 365 Negro pupils and S3 white pupils; is
12 that true?
13 A Yes.
14 Q I notice right adjacent to Stephens is a school
15 which would have seventy Negro pupils and 218 white pupils;
16 is that true?
17 A Yes.
18 Q So, if you drew the zoining line north-south
19 instead of drawing them east-west, as you did for this partici[la
20 combination of zones, you would have been able to have more
21 white pupils in Stephens and more Negro pupils in Lee School;
22 isn't that true?
23 A If you had drawn the zone lines, however, north-soustfc
24 you would have drawn your lines through each of the buildings,
25 in effect, and you will notice that those two buildings
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CROSS EXAMINATION - P a r so n s 325
practically line up north and south.
q I notice, Mr. Parsons, one is on "0" Street and
the other is between Seventeenth and Eighteenth Street, back
of "0" Street, so they wouldn't have been drawn through the
buildings from the location here.
A Well, you would just barely have room to draw a
line between the two buildings if you drew the line north and
south.
Q But the street would be down between one school
and the other, and all the pupils on the western side of
Lee School -- that the number of those pupils would have
brought about a better racial balance in Lee, wouldn't it?
A Oh, yes, it probably would.
Q And a better racial balance in Stephens, wouldn't
it?
A Probably would. At the sans time, it would have
created some transportation problems, not monumental, for
these people that they do not have with the lines drawn as
they are drawn.
Q What is the greatest distance from Lee School to
the perimeter of the second zone here?(Indicating.)
MR. WALKER: Are you following me, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Gena ra1ly, yes.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q What is the distance there in terns of miles, Mr.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - P a r so n s 326
Parsons?
A I do not know, of coux’se .
Q Mr. Parsons, I have taken the liberty to count, am
I see if you go from Lee School south to Twenty-First Street,
and then all the way from Twenty-First Street on over to
Abigail, you have a total of twelve blocks; would that be
approximately correct?
A I would agree with you.
Q Now, is that too great a distance for a pupil to
walk to get to school in your judgment?
A No, I would not say so.
Q So, the transportation problem would not be very
great if you were to have north-south rather than east-west
zoning.
A It would not be very great, but it would be greatei
Q What would be the transportation problem you
identified, Mr. Parsons?
A Getting from hone to school.
Q Twelve blocks. Isn’t it true, though, that the
pupils who attend Lee School now, which is at Thirteenth and
Oak, who live near the railroad track at the perimeter of the
boundary would have to walk fourteen blocks?
A He doesn’t have to attend Lee School. We operate
under the freedom of choice.
Q Under this attendance area plan that you have
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CROSS EXAMINATION - P a r so n s 327
prepared?
A I do not follow you.
Q In other words, I 'ra simply saying that even within
the sons, you have pupils who are going to have to walk as
far to get to Lee School as they would have to walk if they
lived in another sons *
A Individual pupils, yes.
Q I see.
A But the bulk of the pupils would be better served
in terms of transportation, distance from school, the way the
lines are dratm instead of drawing them the other way. But,
at the same time, I think the type of problem you point out
here shows we need more tine in which to study all of these
matters prior to putting a plan of this type or any other type
plan into effect.
Q I notice Stephens and Lee are about six blocks
apart; is that true?
A I'm sure it is*
Q So, you could draw the zone lines in such a way as
to spread out the races and have & reasonable proportion of
Negroes and whites in each school.
A If there are 24 blocks in the area, we could draw
the lines in 24 different places.
Q I also notice that the school right to the north of
Stephens School, Stephens being majority Negro, the lines have
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CROSS EXAMINATION - P a r so n s 328
been drawn in such a way as to only have seven Negroes out of
220 in that particular school.
. Could you not have divided Stephens up in such a
way as to apportion some of these Negroes who are in the
majority at Stephens into this particular school?
A It could be drawn any number of different ways,
and we need more time to study this matter.
Q So, what you did was come up with some lines and
said to the Judge, "Here are some zones".
THE COURT: Pass on to the next question.
* BY MR. WALKER:
Q You don't have any other criteria, do you?
A No.
Q Now, would this also be true, Mr. Parsons, of this
school — what is this -- Centennial?
A I don't know what you are talking about "would thi
be true".
Q Centennial is adjacent to -- which school is this
on Markham, which is 216 white pupils and eighteen Negro?
That would be Woodruff School; is that true?
A What are you asking me?
Q This is Woodruff School where I'm pointing?
A Oh, yes.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I call your attention to
Exhibit 12 of the Defendants.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 329
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Woodruff is located adjacent to or somewhat near t<
Centennial School?
A THE COURT: I see Woodruff.
BY ME. WALKER:
Q I notice that Centennial is going to have a majori
Negro population, whereas Woodruff is going to have only
eighteen Negro pupils and 216 white pupils. Could not you
have drawn the zone lines in such a way as to have fewer
Negro pupils at Centennial and more Negro pupils in Woodruff?
A It’s entirely possible, sure.
Q And would not this have caused the situation in
your judgment as an educator, looking at the experience the
district has had, Centennial at least -- the white population
in Centennial to be more stable?
A Possibly.
Q In your experience as an administrator, isn’t it
true that when white pupils tend to become a racial minority
their numbers tend to steadily decline from year to year
within that school?
A This has been an experience in Little Rock in
connection with one or two schools, yes.
Q With Mitchell School?
A Yes .
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CROSS EXAMINATION - P a r so n s 330
Q With West Side Junior High SchoolJt6r:
A Yes . t
Q With Central High School?
A No.
Q Central will have 26 percent Negro this year; isn't
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that true?
A Approximately, yes.
Q Arsd last year it was nineteen percent?
A Yes.
Q And in Centennial School?
A Well, Centennial School has never operated with a j
majority of Negro pupils in it.
Q Before now. But the number of white pupils has
been steadily declining; is that true?
A Either the number of white pupils has been steadil;
declining,or the number of Negro pupils has been steadily
increasing; either of which could change the percent.
Q And the same is true of Parham and Kramer?
A Wa have not identified these as problems.
tMR. WALKER: Your Honor, I'd like to look at my
!
notes a minute so I can finish with this witness.
BY MR. WALKER:
'Q You stated earlier, Mr. Parsons, in the deposition;
isn’t it true that you never expected white pupils to
to Negro schools?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 331
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A That's correct.
Q And do you have any -- did you have any plan,
therefore, to have the Negro schools phased out under fr-eedom
of choice?
A Under freedom of choice?
Q Yes.
A Well, we discussed, of course, in the plan submitta
phasing out Mann High School, as you know.
Q But you did not expect freedom of choice to phase
.out any particular Negro school, according to the figures you
have before you?
A Ultimately, perhaps, but not for next year.
Q Did you ever -- after the Oregon team submitted its
report to the district -- consult with those experts to help
them interpret to the community the report and its findings
after you presented it to the board?
A Yes, we invited them to come to Little Rock and
make the presentation in a public meeting, which they did.
Q I mean after that, did you ask them to come back
and help you in trying to use that plan to bring about a
unitary school system?
A No, we did not.
Q After the Oregon team came and submitted the report:
to the district, did you consider the Oregon team's obligation
to the district to be fulfilled?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 332
A Yes.
Q Is there any particular reason you can think of
why the Oregon team accelerated the completion of the study?
As I understand, it was supposed to have been completed in
about a year and a half, but they did so within about a year;
isn't that true?
A If this were the case, Mr. Walker, I do not recall
that they completed the study ahead of the contractual date.
MR. WALKER: Thank you, Mr. Parsons.
MR. FRIDAY: That all.
THE COURT: Let me ask you a few questions, Mr.
Parsons.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: There has been a good deal of discussii
about the zoning, which is illustrated on the map we have beer
looking at.
What are the possible methods of eliminating
freedom of choice, and I know one of them is geographic zoning
#What are the other possible methods, and I'm not now referring
to the possession or lack of possession of money. What are
the other possible ways?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, if we are going to
disregard money completely, there are numerous possibilities.
One would certainly be a zoning plan that was
couched in terms of creating as much desegregation as could
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 333
possibly be created without regard whatsoever to the distance!
'that a pupil lived from the building that he would be required
to attend.
Another would be the creation of attendance zones,!
but net make the zone of one district coterminous with the zone
of another district; have a no-mans land or buffer zone in
between and the people who lived in between would have freedom
of choice to go either to the right or to the left, or to the
north or to the south.
Certainly, the educational park concept, which was
so popular a couple of years ago -- I think lost some of its
appeal perhaps -- would be another means of at least desegre
gating the high school grades perhaps. I don't think it
would work at the elementary level under any figment of the
imagination, and probably not at the junior high level.
^ , There would be the possibility of pairing, of
-course, which you have mentioned and which has been mentioned
by many experts in the field of pairing schools, and by
this, of course, we mean teaching, shall I say, grades one,
two and three in one building, and grades four, five and six
in another building to purposefully achieve some desegregation
that you would not otherwise achieve.
There surely may be others, but these are just
some waysj but I think that there are peculiarities within
organisational patterns and community patterns within every
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 334
> . community that forces a community to develop its own plan
within the purview of that particular community, the peculiar
conditions that may exist in that particular community,
THE COURT: Mr. Friday, in his statement and
perhaps in your testimony, although I do not recall it,
mentioned that some of the alternatives would have to be
submitted to the vote of the people. By that I understood
him to mean that those methods would require additional money.
THE WITNESS: That is what he meant, I’m sure.
THE COURT: Which of these methods would require
financial resources more than are now available to the distric
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, there is no plan of
desegregation — I hope this statement is correct; I mean for
it to be — there is no plan of desegregation that could be
effectively put into effect in Little Rock other than a
geographic soning plan that could be done without additional
dollars.
Now, we could -- I didn’t mention a moment ago --
we could create a junior high school where the Stephens School
is. This would implement desegregation. We could create a
big elementary school where West Side Junior High School is.
This would implement desegregation. We could build a new
elementary school east of Main and close Parham and Kramer
and Bush and possibly Pfeifer. This would implement desegre
gation. There are dollar marks attached to all of these
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CROSS EXAMINATION - P a r so n s 335
projects, of course.
THE COURT: Roughly, and I know it would be very
rough, are we talking in millions of dollars or less? ijTHE WITNESS: Oh, yes, we are talking in millions,;
but not talking in multiple millions. We think the Stephens
area could be converted to a junior high school; West Side
*̂«ed*uld be remodeled into an elementary school, permitting the
closing down of some schools that are now predominantly white
^.and all-Negro; that a new building could be built in the
vicinity of MacArthur Park, enabling us to close down three
or four buildings in that area of the city for probably four
or four and a half million dollars. These things would cost
about four or four and a half million dollars, we think.
THE COURT: Of course, any additional finances
would have to be provided after a vote of approval by the
people.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Now, geographical zoning, isn't that
the same system Little Rock and practically every other public?
school had prior to 1954?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, that's correct, sir.
THE COURT; The only difference being that under
the plan we have been discussing here, white and colored pupil
would attend the same school within that zone.
THE WITNESS: Yes, the big differential in this
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 336
plan and the original plan about which you spoke, is that
there were overlapping attendance zones in the south prior to
,1954, where one zone would overlap another and the Negro
people who lived in this area would attend the school desig
nated Negro and the white pupils would attend the school
designated white. These are non-overlapping attendance zones
of course.
THE COURT: If I remember correctly, when you had
geographical attendance zones — as I say, I think you had
them everywhere or nearly everywhere -- they were compulsory.
-- . ■ THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: There are certain exceptions if I
remember right, that if a family moved from one section of th
city to another and perhaps he was in the fifth grade and
only needed one more year to complete grammar school, of if
he were in a certain high school or junior high school and
only needed one year to complete, he was allowed to complete
the school he had formerly attended.
THE WITNESS: Very often that would be the case.
THE COURT: With some exceptions, not based on
race, of course.
THE WITNESS: Right.
THE COURT: And perhaps if you had transportation
problems in a family --of course, families do move from
one section of the city to another.
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REDIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: I believe that is all. Thank 57011, Mr.
Parsons.
MR. FRIDAY: Let me ask one question on that, Your
Honor. I want to be sure I had Mr. Parsons search back
in the records for this very point. I think we hit on it,
wJbut not as clearly as you have now developed it.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q There has been a lot of testimony about "strip
zoning". This means to me you deliberately go from one side
of town to the other to get some racial composition that voulc
be satisfactory.
A Yes.
Q It has also been developed and I think Mr.
Walker brought this out — that this imposes a burden on
children who lived some distance away. The burden is more
severe if their financial situation is restricted; is this
^correct?
A This would be correct unless there were a school-
sponsored system of transportation and this wouldn't remove
all the inconveniences.
Q This would involve money, would it not?
A Yes.
Q This is one aspect I think was not developed by
337 i
RECIIQS3 EXAMINATION Parsons 338
c.f. 25 l
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t Court. If you go to this -- which you did in the Parsons
•f -- that is why you went to a recommendation of a school-
.s.'.ced transportation system; is that correct?
A That's correct.
MR. FRIDAY: All right.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
Y m. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, would it he necessary for the district:
abandon any schools now that you have in operation because
their condition if you were to have a comprehensive
-segregation plan?
THE COURT: Wait just a moment. "Comprehensive",
t do you mean?
MR. WALKER: Any kind of a zone plan.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WALKER:
Q Isn’t it true a lot of the buildings or several of
be buildings you now have are outmoded and not sufficient
r teaching todays youngsters?
THE COURT: And would ordinarily be replaced in the
w ■ future?
MR. WALKER:
Q And would ordinarily be replaced in the future?
A The c iswer, of course, is yes to that. We would
e to get rid of a lot of our old buildings.
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EXAMINATION Parsons 339
Q Isn't it really what the Oregon Report recommended!
in a number of Instances?
A In several instances, yes, they did.
Q Isn't it true a district-wide transportation cyste
would cost no more -- would cost the district -- I'm not
stalking about the State of Arkansas as such, but the district
for its percentage of the total cost, no more, at the highest
figure that we can take, than $500 thousand per year?
A This is probably a very reasonable estimate in that
if you multiply 25,000 pupils by $50.00 per pupil, you would
get a figure in excess of that, but surely not every pupil
in the system lives two miles from school, of course. I think
this is a reasonable figure.
Q I see. It is a liberal figure, would not you say?
A Yes, reasonably liberal.
Q Isn't it true that the school district necessarily
has to replace a number of the buildings it now uses within
the next two to three years?
A We hope this will be possible; they need to be
replaced, yes.
Q What percentage of the total transportation cost
does the State of Arkansas provide?
A Approximately -- I'm trying to remember -- I say
and hear, I think, but approximately fifty percent or a little
less than fifty or maybe it's sixty percent. Do I say sixty
RECROSS EXAMINATION - P a r so n s 340
C
c.f. 27 l here John?
2 Q Yes.
3 A If so, I say sixty percent. I do have a comment
4 I want to make about that.
5 Q Let me ask before you make the comment.
6 THE COURT: Let him make the comment before he
■Ve ■ '
7 * ̂ leaves the subject.
8 THE WITNESS: The comment I would make is that
9e, we are never sure -- we do not know, of course --we are
10 never sure the State of Arkansas will finance a transportation
11 system. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't, a transportaticr
12 system that was deliverately set up to require pupils to be
13 transported by schools nearer their homes to go to schools
14 farther away from their homes. I say we do not know whether
15 they would participate in the financing of a transportation
16 ^system of that type or not. There has been no past history
17 to indicate that they would or would not.
18 BY MR. WALKER:
19 Q Doesn't that past history show they permit bussing
20 and pay for pupils in the western part of the city and gettin;
21 them from that part of the city to the eastern part of the cidy?
22 A That's correct. I would agree with that.
23 MR. WALKER: That is all.
24 MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, the record may be deficient
25 In this regard and as I recall, it is.
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FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Have you testified, and I do not recall it, Mr.
Parsons, as to the present availability of money to the distric
for any of these purposes under your present millage and funds
coming in? Do you have any extra money?
A We do not have any unallocated bond money available
in the Little Rock district, and we are operating under the
tightest most restrictive current operating budget that we have
experienced, at least during the last seven years.
THE COURT: He used the word "bond".
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Let’s go from bond to operating that would come in.
I understand on "bond", when you added "and we are operating
under the tightest operating budget", does that mean you have
no available funds for operating or bussing?
A We have no available funds; we have a contingency
fund in our budget for next year of $135,000,00. We normally
try to carry a contingency fund of two and one half percent
of the total budget. 135,000 represents slightly less than
one percent.
Q Again for the record, if you cons in with a plan
th:..t does require money by December 1, would it be possible
RECROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 341
to gat implementation by way of a submission to the electors ,
and if they can be persuaded to go with you, get additional
RE CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 342
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1 money, then, for next year?
A Yes.
Q For the record, when is the time you have to make
up and give notice of your budget?
A We have to make up and give notice sixty days befor^
the election.
Q That means, then -- I have forgotten the exact date
about mid-January
A Hot January, but about the 15th to the 20th —
Q — about mid-March you have the election?
A Right.
MR. FRIDAY: Thank you.
FURTHER RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, isn't it true you have the money now
which has been earmarked by previous bond issues for certain
schools not started?
A Yes, this is true.
Q How much money do you have there?
A I do not knot-?,
O' Isn't it true some of that money was for a school
to be located on Twelfth Street?
A That's right.
Q That is in addition to the $135,000.00?
A Yes.
RECROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 343
c.£. 30 Q Isn’t it true you also have money allocated for a
tract at Booker Junior High School that hasn’t been spent?
A Yes, but committed, a portion of it.
q Have you let a contract with regard to the construct!©
of that?
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A Actually, not let the contract, but one is prepared
and will be presented to the board this month.
Q It hasn’t been let, though, has it?
A No.
Q How much is that?
A About $180,000.00.
Q In addition to the 135,000?
A Yes.
Q Now, do you have any other construction you anticipa
where you haven’t had contracts let?
A We are, of course, in the process now of completely
replacing the flood damage that occurred to Horace Mann High
.fce
School, putting a new floor in the gymnasium and new concrete
under that floor.
Q Let's see, that’s 400,000 and 135,000 and 185,000.
* • •
That’s approximately$700,000.00 that you do have, so that the
district could divert those funds, could it not, to provide
a system-wide transportation system.
A No.
Q Why could not they?
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RECROSS EXAMINATION - P a r so n s 344
A Most of the funds that you have identified have been
funds that were voted to construct school buildings. iherefor -
they are earmarked funds.
Q Are you required by Arkansas law to use those funds
in the manner in which you represented to the public that they
would be used?
A You are required by law, and 1 certainly think our
attorney would be in a better position to answer that than I.
THE COURT: That is what his bond indenture says,
Mr. Walker.
THE WITNESS: You are required to use the funds in
the general way you say they will be used, for the construction
of school buildings.
Q Do you recall this question having cone up in
previous board meetings?
A Oh, yes.
Q Do you recall whether you gave the same answer then
as you are giving now?
A Yes, I did.
Q Do you know whether the present board president or
previous board president gave the same answer?
A I don't think there is any doubt. 1 think the
confusion comas from whether or not a specific project of
building four classrooms on a building, or building four
classrooms on another building — you do not have to do that.
RECROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 345
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1 But, you do have to use the funds for construction purposes.
Q How much money per year does the district spend for
athletics?
A I do not know.
Q Would it he more than $100,000.00?
A Oh, goodness, no.
Q Would it be as much as $50,000.00?
A You are talking about out of tax money?
Q No. What is the district’s budget for athletics?
A The athletic program is a self-supporting program.
Q That’s not my question. What is the budget?
A We have no budget. It’s not included in the school
district’s budget at all.
Q You do not figure, each year, as a part of the
district’s operating expenses?
A No.
Q Are there funds that could not be diverted from
one purpose that you are now pursuing to this particular purpose.
A Teacher salaries?
Q No.
A No.
Q There are no other funds available?
A No, no other funds available.
Q But wouldn't it possible to -- in the event that the
electorate refused another bond issue as they have done the
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RECROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 346
last two times -- to change your budget in sue5 a way as to
provide whatever financial resources were needed to implement
a fair and equitable desegregation plan, regardless of whether
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it's bussing or soma other plan.
A Mr. Walker, since you made the estimate of a cost
of $500,000.00 I would have to say no. There is no way in the
world to squeeze the Little Rod: School District budget and
get $500,000.00 left over.
Q Couldn’t you divert funds next year -- change the
priorities in order to achieve integration if it became
necessary to divert funds?
A It would depend entirely upon the cost of integratic
1 do. not know what it cost now, because wa do not have a plan.
Q During the year, have you prepared a plan other
than the Parsons Plan?
A No.
MR, FRIDAY: That is all, Mr. Parsons.
THE COURT: You may step down.
(Witness excused.)
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons - Adverse 347
THE COURT: You may proceed, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: I would like to call Mr. Parsons for
our case.
THE COURT: All right.
Thereupon,
FLOYD W. PARSONS
having been called by counsel for plaintiffs as an adverse
witness, and having previously been sworn, was examined ar.d
testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, in order to provide a system-wide
transportation system, you have made some projections about
costs. Is that true?
A Yes.
Q And they are contained in your Parsons Plan on
pages 45, 46, and 47. Is that true?
A I'm sure that's true.
Q Do you stand by those cost estimates today?
A Except for the possibility of some additional
costs in terms of inflation that may have occurred.
Q Do you also stand by your proposition at that time
that these transportation costs would be annual and recurrent;
A Oh, yes.
Q And are not to be funded by a bond issue?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION Goldhammer 34;
A
Q
A
Yes, but now I was talking about these costs.
I understand.
All right.
MR. WALKER: That is all we want with Mr. Parsons,
Your Honor.
Parsons
THE COURT: All right. You may step down, Mr.
(Witness excused.)
MR. WALKER: I would like to call Dr. Keith
Goldhammer.
Thereupon,
DR. KEITH GOLDHAMMER
having been called as a witness for the plaintiffs, and having
been first duly sworn was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Will you state your name, your address and your
occupation, please?
A My name is Keith Goldhammer; and my address is
2929 Highland Wake, Corvallis, Oregon; and my occupation is
as Dean of the School of Jiducation, Oregon State University.
Q How long have you been Dean of Oregon State
University, Dr. Goldhammer?
A Since September 1, 1967.
Q I see. And before then where were you employed?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 349
A I was employed at the University ST'Oregon in
Eugene, Oregon. I was Associate Dean of the School of
Education as my terminal position there. Prior to that, I
had been the Director of the Bureau of Educational Research.
Q I see. Dr. Goldhammer, what is your educational
preparation?
A I have my Bachelor’s Degree from Reed College in
Portland, and my Master’s Degree from the University of Gregor
and my Fh. D. from the University of Oregon.
Q What is the area of your Ph. D. concentration?
A Educational administration, research and sociology.
Q I see. Would you describe what your duties have
been as Associate Dean at the University of Oregon, and what
they are now at Oregon State University?
A Let me start at the latter end.
Oregon State University, I administer the School of
Education. I suppose I am the equivalent to the School of
Education that Mr. Parsons is to the Little Rock School Distri
At the University of Oregon, my area of responsibil
as Associate Dean was as the person in charge of all the
research and developmental programs for the School of Educatic
at the University of Oregon.
Q I see. Nov/, in your position as Dean and
Associate Dean, did you have any responsibilities for training
teachers or administrators or educators?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - GoIdhammer 3 50
A Well, both as a professor of education and as
responsible for the Bureau of Educational Research and
Associate Dean, I had a number of doctoral candidates. I
worked exclusively on a doctoral level, and I would suspect
that I have trained or helped to train or been advisor for
sixty or seventy people who are working now in various capacit.i
with doctorates in education.
Q When did you get your Doctor’s degree, and would
you state your places of employment from that point on?
A I had ray Doctor’s degree in 1954; and from 1954
to 1956, I was an Assistant Professor of Education at
Stanford University; in 1956, I returned on the staff of the
University of Oregon, but was sent here to Little Rock in
charge of a contract research team, under the Ford Foundation
that was studying the Arkansas Experiment Teacher Education.
I \-?as then with the University of Oregon from 1956 to my leavir
last September, 1967.
Q I see. Dr. Goldhammer, have you any publications
that have been published since you became a Ph. D.?
A Numerous ones.
Q Would you site --
A I live in "publisher parish operation."
Q Would you state the names of any books you may
have written.
A I have a book on the school board. I have a
c. f.
del
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 351 |
1 monograph that was most recently published on issues and
2 problems in educational administration. I have two case
3 studies on community conflict relative to educational issues
4 called, "The Jackson County Story" and "Jackson County Revisit ed
5 I have a chapter in the most recent publication in
6 a book published under a grant from the U. S . Office of Educat icr
7 entitled, "Designing Education for the Future", and numerous
8 reports and consultation reports with school districts in
9 various parts of the country and so forth. I think it comes
10 to four, five or six pages of stuff that will pass into
11 oblivion as I do.
12 Q Will you describe what your duties were as
13 Director of Educational Research, Director of the Bureau
14 of Educational Research at the School of Education of the
15 University of Oregon?
16 A As Director of the Bureau of Educational Research,
17 my duties were to administer the program of the school service s
18 and direct the school syrveys for which the School of Educatxc n
19 of the University of Oregon had contracted.
20 My responsibilities, primarily, were to undertake t:he
21 direction and supervision of the field work that was done m
22 accordance with such contracts as we had with the Little j\ock
23 School District.
24 Q I see.
25 MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we could go on and on
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhainmer 3 5 2
in order to qualify this witness as an expert.
THE COURT: He is qualified, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: Thank you.
BY HR. WALKER:
Q Nov?, Dr. Goldhainmer, would you state to the Court
whether you have at any time been employed by the Little Rock
School District to engage in a research project; and, if so,
would you describe the report that you were commissioned to
undertake.
A Just as a technical matter, the Little Rock School
District contracted with the University of Oregon to prepare
a report which I believe has been entered into evidence here.
Our charge in brief was to prepare a complete report that
would indicate a feasible plan for the desegregation of the
Little Rock Public Schools based upon the soundest possible
educational principles.
Q I see. I hand you here an item which I ask you
to identify.
A Yes. That is -- without reading it, this is the -
basically, the prospectus for the study which we presented
to the school board prior to the time that the school board
entered into a contract with us. I should say for the record
that at the time Dr. Bumbarger was the Acting Director of
the Bureau of Educational Research; and he and I, I believe,
came and presented this to the board.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhanmicr 353
MR. WALKER: Since it's been identified by this
witness, Your Honor, I would like to aslc that it be marked
as Plaintiff's Exhibit 1.
THE COURT: It will be rtceived.
(Whereupon, the document heretofore
referred to was marked Plaintiff's
Exhibit No. 1 for identification,
and was received in evidence.)
MR. WALKER: With plaintiffs retaining the
opportunity to withdraw this and make a copy ~-
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WALKER: -- ixi view of the fact it comes from
the appellee's brief in the Court of Appeals.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, for the Judge and for the benefit of the
Court, would you basically set out what your commission was,
Dr. GoldhammerV
A I think, in very brief form, the commission is
stated at page one of the report, which says that "This study
was initiated through action of the local school board and
school administrators with the evolved purpose of expressing
the current status of Little Rock's effort to move from a dual
to an integraged school system".
It was intended that the study provide measures of
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 354
the current situation along several dimensions''concerning
•problems to be met and resolved and supply a set of recommen
dations detailing a program for further school board and
community activities.
Q Now, what was the timetable -- what was the, yes,
timetable by which the Oregon team was to complete its report?
A Well, initially, before the contract was negotiated
we had asked for a rather considerable period of time; but in
discussion and consultation with the board and administration,
they felt that they were under some urgency to prepare a repot
so that they could meet; the demand, I believe, of the United
States Court of Appeals.
Under those circumstances, we agreed that I would
devote some of my time from my leave from the University of
Oregon to the report so that we could meet some of the require
meats that they had insofar as the Federal Court orders under
which they were operating at that time.
Q I see. What was your understanding of the urgency
of the situation at that time?
A I believe that as it now comes to mind that the
district was under court order to present a plan for the
complete desegregation of the schools. I don't remember the
specific aspects of the court order, but I believe they were
under court order to present a plan for the complete desegre
gation of the schools which involved both faculty and the
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 355
student desegregation.
Q You were advised by the administrative staff
that this was the requirement?
A Basically, I think that is so, yes. I should
say that our initial negotiations were conducted both with
the superintendent, and possibly Mr. Fair, and the members of
the school board. I believe Mr, Friday was present at one or
two of those sessions.
Q I see. Would you tell me how the study was
undertaken and what persons were involved, primarily?
A Well, the study was undertaken under agreement
that is stipulated that there would be certain information
provided to us through the local school district; and we
received excellent cooperation from Mr. Parsons and members
of the school board and members of the staff, all the doors
necessary for us to acquire the information without anybooy
attempting to bias the information in any way was presented
to us.
We then put together a team from the University of
which Dr. Bumharger was the Acting Director and I was the
Co-Director which included Max Abbott, who is the Director --
currently is Director of the Center for the Advance Study of
Educational Administration at the University of Oregon; Dr.
Mil ford Cottrell, who is a post-doctoral student at the Univex
of Oregon in Educational Administration; Dr. John Howard, who
DIRECT EXAMINATION ~ G oldharacer 356j 1Follows
ms 9
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was a sociologist; It*. Robert Keith, who is Associate
i
Director of Urban Planning in the Bureau of Municipal Research
and Political Scientists; Dr. Gregory Maltby, who was a pro
fessor in the Bureau of Educational Research; and then there
were, I think, about nine or ten, probably nine graduate
assistants who had had experisnee as superintendents, principals,
educational planners, who then assisted us with the collection
of data.
After the design had been established and approved
by the school board, Mr. Parsons* office prepared certain
basic statistical information for us; and members of the team
made various trips to Little Rock to collect information, to
interview people, to nuke surveys of the school building, all
the school buildings, in accordance with the plan, to study the
problems related to the residential characteristics of the
community, and so forth. It was a rather intensive period of
data collection for the report.
I believe we also made one or two progress reports
to the board to give them some 'indication ox the directions
in which we were going.
Q Now, Dr. Goldhammer, did you and your team make any
findings with reference to whether the Little Rock School
System was still a dual school systc:: ?
A Yes. Of course, our basic finding in that respect
was that the Little Rock schools, although they had made very
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 357
remarkable progress between 1956, when I had Iwcd here for
six or seven months, and 1967 or 1966 when most of our data
pertained to, nevertheless the oual system of scnools hâ >
still prevailed; and with the rate of enrollment growth in the j
community, the progress, of course, had been much slower than
would possibly have been anticipated.
Basically, by any standards or criteria that would
be acceptable in the profession for judging a unified or unitars
dual school system, this was and still is, I presume a dual
system.
Q Did you make any finding as to the working »- the
working effectiveness of the freedom of choice plan then in
effect?
A Well, the freedom of choice plan, of course, was
not working effectively for reasons that previously have been
stated in the courts here.
Number one, it was a one-way road with soma Negro
children choosing what had been all-white schools, but no
white children selecting all-Negro schools for attendance.
And also, there are problems as have been discussed
associated, for instance, with Hall High School where the at
tendance boundaries had been set in such a fashion that it
became overcrowded.
In my estimation and in the estimation of our team,
and considering the growth in enrollment in the Little Rock
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammcr 358
schools under freedom of choice, the attainment of the goal
would possibly never have been realized.
Q Not-?, did you and your team examine the extent of
faculty desegregation within the schools up until that time?
A Yes. And, of course, at the time the faculty de
segregation had been very modest and it was then, while we
were in the process of collecting data, that endeavors were
being made to accelerate the amount of faculty desegregation.
One of the things we were asked particularly to study was the
problems associated with the desegregation of the faculty in
the school system.
Q Before proceeding any further, what was your under
standing of the term or the definition "unitary school system"
as you understood it?
A Well, a unitary school system would have -- would
be a system that provided as equal educational opportunities
for all of the children in the district: as would be possible
and would take into consideration, as Mr. Parsons said a few
moments ago, some of the unique characteristics of the com
munity that would necessitate overcoming constraints that
existed in the community to the development of those educa
tional opportunities, equal educational opportunities.
In a community such as Little Rock where, obviously,
the pattern of school segregation now is the result of
residential segregation, a unitary school system would in-
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DIRECT EXAMINATION Goldharacer 3 5 9
evitably, from a professional standpoint, mean to me the de
segregation of the schools.
I presume your question, too, would relate to what
would be professional standards as to the degree to which de
segregation has been accomplished.
THE COURT: I think he asked the definition of
"unitary school system."
BY MR. WALKER:
0 Let me put it a different way.
How would you define "desegregation?"
A In a desegregated school system, I think it would
have to be defined in terms of attempting to duplicate, insofar
as possible, the relationship of majority and minority groups
to the same extent they are represented in the general com
munity; and the research that's been done on this shows, of
course, there are various patterns that have been provided in
the country, various percentage relationships established.
The problem is to keep the accumulation of minority
groups from becoming too much, from what we talk about as
reaching the tipping point -- that is, the point at which the
presence of the minority group within a school system pro
duces re-segregation and also preventing it from being main
tained at so low a level that the benefit of the integrated
school system would not be achieved.
Q What are the general recognized aims of the American
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhanuner 360
Educational System, Doctor?
A Well, American education has a very unique role in
the history of education in the world, and that is the
American Educational System was also developed in response to
certain social needs and requirements, dating back to the first
revolution that occurred in American education when Benjamin
Franklin created the academy, which was the forerunner of the
American high school and also the initiation of concern in
public education or vocational education.
It was a response that indicated that educationally
we had to provide the manpower necessary for the emerging
mercantile econoray in this country.
American education accreted responsibilities and
objectives in the period, for instance, following the Civil
War whan the country was characterised by a very vast: and
rapid influx of immigrants, particularly from Europe when the
American school system was called upon to socialize the immi
grants and help them become a part of the mainstream of
American culture.
Since 1911, there has been several official national
statements relative to the objectives of Amo* icon education
in society, and these very generally encompassed, I think,
five areas. One is certainly the American school system
should teach the fundamentals and tools and knowledge that
the fundamental tools and knowledge and learning that an in
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhamraer 361
dividual needs for successful participation in our culture.
Secondly, the American public school system has had the unique
function of helping individuals become socially efficient and
effective as individuals, and there has been no responsible
statement of objectives that has eliminated that aspsct of
its social efficiency.
Thirdly, the American public school system has been
called upon to help American individuals become economically
productive individuals. As President Johnson has said, "to
help them become taxpayers rather than just tax eaters."
One of the unique components of the American system,
again, has been our tremendous concern for the individual
self-realization, the responsibility of the individual or of
the school system for helping every individual attain
maximum of his potential for service both to himself and to
our society.
last of all and this may be debatable, but not to
me I believe the American public school system has also had
a significant responsibility for helping individuals become
morally responsible. Probably the greatest challenge to
American education today is in this area of helping individuals
become morally responsible, because a democratic society de
pends upon the morally responsible population.
I could go on and on, as you recognise, but in a nut
shell, this is how I would answer that particular question.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - GoIdhammer 362
Q You did include the term "self-concept" at one point.
A Self“realization5 yes. Under the word "self-
realization," I think we would have to put in our discussion |
the terminology of helping an individual develop an adequate
self-concept cr self-image, helping an individual understand
his potential and have the motivations, the eeIf-evaluation
that enables him to achieve up to the limits of his potential,
that is correct.
Q is there any evidence to establish a position on
whether a person who finds himself in an all-Negro school
can fully realize his full potential, using the theory you
have jus t meat ioned ?
A Well, recognising the fact that we are going to
deal now in gross in regard to groups of people rather than
individuals, the research would tend to show that the primary
reason for the courts' insistence upon the desegregation of
the schools is the psychological impact segregation makes upon
the individua1.
The Supreme Court, in its famous 1954 decision, of
course, as is well known by everybody here, used this as the
primary factor in its desegregation order in the Brown case.
The Court, incidentally, according to my knowledge, had the
testimony of quite a number of eminent social scientists who
presented the evidence to the Court of the impact of segrega
tion upon the self-image of the child.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Golclhammer 363
Some of the research and evidence hare shown that we
can take young children out of segregated schools, young
children of the minority group, and place them in a situation
where, on the one hand, they are challenged by members of the
majority group and enter into competition ’with them for achieve
ment. But, on the other tend, they have a sufficient number
of their own minority groups in that school system, too, so
that they have a base of, let us say, communion within the
school system or within the school situation.
Those children will very rapidly develop a much
more favorable self-image for their achievement and toward
realization of their individual goals and accomplishments.
So one of the things the research shows is that
insofar as the desegregated schools in a pattern I have sug
gested, one of the impacts of a desegregated school is to
create a climate that greatly enhances the potentiality of
the minority youngster, making the most of his opportunities
in an educational situation.
Q Would you have an opinion as to whether there are
any educational detriments which accrue as a result of de
segregation or integration to white pupils?
A That's a difficult question to answer. The evidence
__ the evidence would not indicate it, but we don’t know how
good the evidence is. This is one of the problems in that
particular area.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldharaner 364
The evidence ■would indicate that the majority group
youngsters tend to benefit, too. Some recent studies have
been done in New York City. The evidence is that the nvajority
group youngsters tend to develop more realistic interpretation
of the characteristics of the minority group, recognition of
them as fellow human being's, and to look upon individual
members as individual human beings rather than lumping them
into a group and stereotyping them as being members of a
group.
There are those, of course, who are the social
philosophers of the day who maintain, of course, that it helps
to realize some of the basic ideals of the so-called American
dream. My suspicion is that this will present to both majority
and minority group members — there are some who will respond
negatively to the challenge, and this must be taken into con
sideration as some individuals are injured by challenges; but
the vast majority of the individuals are, of course, human
nature being what it is, stimulated and encouraged in challenge
and respond very favorably to it.
q Dr. Goldharaner, would you state what recommendation
the Oregon team made to bring about a unitary school system
in the Little Rock School District? In view of the fact we
have the finding of the report in the record, I would like
you to be as succinct as possible in stating what you propose
to bring about.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhamraer 365
A Yes. I would hate to read this literary masterpiece
for anybody, but there are a whole series of recommendations.
If 1 may, I'd like to go back to the statement His
Honor asked Mr. Parsons, because the first factor we had to
consider in making our recommendations was the whole range of
potential plans for the desegregation of education that could
be operative in the Little Rock schools, and again we used the
same criterion here in our discussion of our team that you
used, to look at the various plans from the point of view of
operation of the plan without regard for any monetary sums
that might be attached to theta.
We came to the conclusion that in a -- I wouldn't
list anything I think, basically — I’m not sure Mr. Parsons
indicated bussing as one of the plans, but it was implied in
various other plans he employed.
We came to the conclusion, first and foremost of
all — and this was the biggest problem and substantial ob
stacle we had to overcome — that in a residentially segregated
community such as Little Rock, there was no one plan that
would do the job completely for the community.
Therefore, the task we are faced with was to attempt
to come up with what would be a reasonable combination of
plans that would accomplish the job. Basically, our first
plan was to introduce the concept of the educational park and
to consider the entire community as an educational park ~~
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Go Ik.hammer I366
incidentally* this is bn ically the same concept under which
the freedom of choice plan operates. This is, as Mr. Parsons
explained, you eliminate school district boundaries around
attendance units and consider the youngster should have avail
able to him, insofar as the facilities permit, any school
within the community, and this was the basic beginning point
of the concept.
Then, of course, we had to face the problem of re -
segregation. If you look at this as an educational park, how
can you develop a system of desegregation that will be &
permanent system of desegregation, rather than having to go
through all of these fights again and again and again in the
years that lie ahead.
We came to the conclusion that the only way you
could present re-segregation within a community such as Little
Rock was, first of all, to create a single high school. This
wasn't entirely feasible, so we had to go to the next plan,
and that was of re-structuring grade levels and developing a
single eleventh and twelfth grade high school unit, enlarging
the ninth and tenth grade units, create larger middle sc? cols
and, in turn, create both larger elementary schools and a
pairing of elementary schools in order to effect the total
desegregation of tha community.
So that in our plan, that was a concept of tha
educational park, the ra-structuring of grades, the pairing
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DIRECT EXAMINATION Ooidhatamer
of schools, the creation of larger schools and primarily
concentrating them toward the center of the city rather than
on the periphery of the city.
May I also add that we believed on the basis we
collected for our report, that it would be impossible to ac
complish our plan without seine district-provided bussing for
reasons that already have been discussed here today.
Q Dr. Goldharocer, it has been stated earlier today
that your plan would have required an expenditure of $10
million dollars and more in order to be implemented. Would
you react to that, please.
A Well, the total plan that we presented would un
doubtedly have cost $10 million dollars or more, but not all
of that would be the cost of desegregation. As was brought
out earlier in the day, Little Rock has quite a number of
buildings that we would characterize as obsolescent. I be
lieve the school board has charaterized as obsolescent school
structure, school buildings, that go back quite some period of
time and are no longer functional educational laboratories.
For instance, you can contrast the difference between
the school plant in hall High School, which was built some
twelve years ago, and it’s still a modern functional up-to-date
school building in which you can engage in modern, contemporary
educational programs, and Central High School, the first con*
'lstruction at which was 1946, which is more than forty years
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - GoIdhammer 363 i
old, arid was built on a concept of school architecture no
longer flexible.
I would suspect remodeling of the school very ex
pensive and the possibility of further additions to the
school because of site and go forth is particularly nil.
You have the whole range of conditions that exist
within the Little Rock School District and the vast amount of
money that is encompassed in our plan should bo done for the
school district for the proper environments1 conditions for
the education of the children of this community, regardless
of whether the school district is desegregated or not.
My contention would be that to update its program,
Little Rock needs to do most of that $10 million dollars, if
they weren't under court order to desegregate.
Q I see. Would you have an opinion as to the basic
cost that it would have taken to have implemented the Oregon
report if the district used all of the facilities and did not
abandon facilities and create new structures.
A I think the implicit assumption, Mr. Walker, of
your question is wrong because I don't think you could have
done it entirely that way. But if you had done it that way,
I would have to give you a very uneducated guess at this time
because I would suspect it could have been done for a couple
hundred thousand dollars, but I'm not sure.
Q What would that amount have been used for?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhamwer 369
A Well, you would have had to — you would have to --
.jell. I'll take it back. It would not have been that at all.
One of the further items Mr. Parsons did not mention
that we have in our plan is the massive program of conpensa-
tory education, which is also one of the techniques that would
have to be used to relieve some of the educational disabiiiti.es
of segregated schools. I would say that it would probably
come closer to a half a million dollars. A large part of that
money, I would assume, would be used in the employment of a
variety of educational specialists to work with both the
majority and the minority groups of children to relieve any
educational deficiencies that would be needed, and which,
understandably, the Little Rock School District should try to
provide the resources, again.A large percentage of it would
go for the compensatory education program.
Some of the money would go to a massive in-service
education and re-orientation programs for the teachers, be
cause without such a program, I do not think that the desegre
gation of the faculties would meet with the degree of success
that we would want it to meet, and some of the money would go
for the bussing of school children.
Q Now, what is your understanding of the term
’’compensatory educat ion?"
A Well, it's a bad term, as most pedagoguese is bad.
What it means is that we compensate for educational deficiency
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhanimer 370
and if you want to be very candid about how tf?c term got
started in education, it did not get started in educational,
really, until after the Supreme Court decision in 1954, and
there was a rec.ognit5.on that we had created educational in
equality in our school system, and it was time for the pro
fessional educators to develop programs to compensate for
those deficiencies and deficits that had been created.
Incidentally, it was developed primarily in re
sponse to educational problems of Negro children where the
greatest amount of educational deficiency, in regard to the
educational achievement, seemed to exist. So it was a term
that was developed in recognition of the fact that some
youngsters in our society were not getting the same kind of
educational opportunity as others of their peers.
Q Did you find that to be the case in Little Rock?
A Basically, we did not make a detailed study that
would enable me to scientifically and professionally answer
your question.
On the basis of the research, however, and on the
basis of conditions that we observed and the basis of some
data that was provided, we would have to say that there was
an indication of a problem related to the segregation of the
schools in Little Rock.
Q Did you find any indication of a high attrition rate
among Negro students, a higher rate than you did white students
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhurnmer 371
A Well, if you will look at -- if you will look at
Table 3 on page 9 of our report, you will see that there is a
consistent pattern here of the Negro to white ratio of stu
dents enrolled in the schools declining as you advance
through the school system.
For instance, in the first grade in 1966, there is
a forty-sixty ratio. In the sixth grade there is a thirty-three
sixty-seven ratio. For the junior high schools, there is a
thirty-one-sixty-nine ratio, but for all of the senior high
schools, there is a twenty-six-seventy-four ratio; or con
trasting the twelfth grade with the first grade, the twelfth
grade had a ratio of twenty-three to seventy-seven, whereas
the first grade had a ratio of forty to sixty.
Of course, you can see the pattern of falling off
more rapidly.
THE COURT: Is that peculiar to Little Rock, Doctor?
THE WITNESS: No, sir, it is not peculiar to Little
Rock. It is characteristic of school systems where a minority
group exists in a segregated type of school situation. bo,
for instance, we saw this pattern in Southern California
where the Maxican-American children had been educationally
o -
segregated and, of course, it exists even on a social economic
segregation scale so that children coming from schools that
are segregated for the lowest social economic group tend to
have the same more rapid attrition rate.
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372DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhananer
THE COURT: That sometimes follows residential
pattern?
THE WITNESS: Yes, very definitely.
BY IK. WALKER:
Q Now, Dr. Goldhanzser, I hand you a document which
has been previously introduced as Defendant's Exhibit No. 9
which is a report to the board of directors of Little Rock
from Mr. Floyd W. Parsons, Super intendent of Schools, on the
subject to the Oregon report, and ask you if you have seen
this document before?
A No, sir, 1 have not.
Q Would you peruse it?
A Obviously, I can't take your time to read this in
detail, but I can see the general -- yes.
Q Have you been provided with the depositions that
were taken of Mr. Floyd Parsons?
A Yes, sir.
Q And have you had a chance to study those depositions?
A Yes, I have.
Q And have you been provided with copies of the
depositions of the other board members that were taken?
A 1 have been provided with depositions of Mr. William
r , Meeks, Mr. Daniel Woods, and Mr. Jimmy Leon Jenkins, Mr.
Fowler. I have seen the deposition of Mr. Drummond.
Q Have you had an opportunity to study those documents?
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A Yes. J*u
Q Have you been provided with a copy of the transcript
of yes terday' s proceed irtgs ?
A Yes.
Q And have you had a chance to study those documents?
A I had a chance to read them. Because it was rather
late last night when I finished reading them, I am not sure I
was studying them.
Q Are you familiar with the basic objections contained
in Mr. Parsons’ report which is before you in Defendant's
Exhibit 9?
A I presume it is the basic objection that he made in
his deposition.
Q Yes.
A Without stating --
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, let me point out for the
record — I think this is important — these are discovery
depositions. I did no questioning. They are not in evidence.
I do not know what he is going to ask about the depositions,
but I want to make this point.
THE COURT: I understand, but I don't think it is
necessary for the purpose he's asking.
MR. WALKER: These depositions were taken in part to
provide the expert witness with an opportunity to know some of
the facts about the Little Rock School System to date.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhaiwner
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Coldhananer 374
TIIE COURT: It's all right.
MR. FRIDAY: That’s the first I have heard of that,
Honor.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q All right, would you state your understanding of the
basic objections that Mr. Parsons has to tha Oregon plan?
A I believe that Mr. Parsons' basic objection was based
upon, number one, the re-structuring of the grade levels;
number two, the size of the senior high school in particular,
and the rapidity with which we recommended the school facilities
be eliminated and new schools constructed, and also the cost
for the district going immediately into a district-provided
transportation system.
I believe, too, that there was — that he disputed
the pairing of Mann and Metropolitan High Schools. Yes, he --
he did not agree with the basic concept of the educational
park and particularly as it included the abandonment of the
neighborhood school concept.
Q Doctor, would you react to each one of those?
A May I say for tha record he also had some nice
things to say about the report.
Q All right, would you react to each of those ob
jections?
THE COURT: I believe we could find a better word
than "react.”
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DIRECT EXAMTHATION - Goldharainer 375
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: Some of the matters, I would think in
Mr. Parsons ‘ analysis, would be matters that would be not very
fundamental to the basic concept of the report, and if 1 may,
i will skip over them.
I think the question of whether we would use the
solution he proposed in his report for the problem of
Metropolitan-Mann, or ours, is a matter of extreme professional
differences or on various technicalities, 1 should say, and
1 would not look upon that as fundamental and I wouldn't have
much to say on that.
I think the basic point of disagreement that 1 would
have with Mr. Parsons' reaction to our report is the disagree
ment over the continuation of the neighborhood school concept.
Let me say that from my perspective, the_neigliboJ7liood_s.chool
concept is not an educational concept at all. It's an ad
ministrative concept. It is a plan for distributing children
among the schools.of a community and, obviously, in a com
munity the size of Little Rock or in larger communities, and
even in many of the smaller communities, you need to have a
number of attendance centers, and you have to have some plan
for the distribution of children among attendance centers.
So I would say that in a — and if we are going to accomplish
desegregation — and this is one of our primary objectives, as
the courts have stated -- then, of course, I think in a
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V ' ' ■ - p 14IIIA TIC/J 3 7 6Coldhamiuer
situation like Little Rock, we cannot continues to build a
program fox* the distribution of children around the neighbor
hood school concept.
Now what do you lose educationally? I have spent a
good bit of time and had members of my staff trying to dis
cover what is it you would lose by abolishing the neighbor
hood school concept. There is nothing to lose educationally.
You would lose something as far as convenience of parents is
concerned, and as far as ~-
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I am going to make my
record one more time. I want to object to any testimony on
the issue at this time of the relative merits of the neighbor
hood school concept. We are not standing at this time for or
against that concept; and on the issues before the Court, we
are not prepared to prolong this by putting on testimony back
and forth as to the relative merits concerning available al
ternatives immediately before the district for September, 1968.
We think this is not relative.
If we coma back in December, and embrace a permanent
plan, we may embrace exactly what he says or we may not do
this .
1 just want to make my record, and I won't bother
him any more.
THE COURT: I understand.
MR. FRIDAY: We object to all of this on the grounds
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377DIRECT EXAMINATION - GoIdhammer
of irrelevancy, incompetency and immateriality at this time,
THE COURT: I understand.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I would like to state that
there are several plans before the Court, and the Court or
Appeals has stated in no uncertain terras that all plans avail
able have to be considered, and the burden is on the district
to show why they can not use one particular plan as over age ms
another.
One of the plans that has been presented is the
Oregon plan. Some of the objections to that are that it would
abolish the neighborhood school concept, and this is what we
are going on not-?.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Continue, Doctor.
A Let me associate with this the issue of the ex
ceptionally large high school. I would also hold that by fakir,
the contemporary and educational and administrative technology
for dealing with Large groups of children, we can actually ac
complish more educationally in the large high school than the
small school.
Our studies, when I was at Stanford, of large high
schools in the San Francisco Bay area indicated that educations
disadvantages, the restrictions of programs, started to mount
rather rapidly as schools became smaller than twelve hundred
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pupils,
We saw the optimum under normal circumstances for a
school in that area of somewhere between eighteen hundred and
twenty-two hundred youngsters was very hard to determine , bu»,
we also saw some schools larger than that which had made in
teresting administrative adaptations and we were able to
naximize both the advantages which Hr. Parsons scated .. cor-
rectly, X think --of the small school plus the advantages of
size, and the youngsters whose individual needs could be at
tended to ao the result of the larger numbers.
Let me give you an example. In a three-year high
school, we could expect about one per cent of the youngsters
to be eligible for, say, the equivalent of a second year of
college language during their senior year. If you had twelve
hundred youngsters in a high school you could expect, that you
would have about twelve youngsters who were able to take that
advanced course.
Incidentally, we have students today going into
college -- and I‘in sure you do in the Little Rock schools.
With twelve youngsters, this would be economically
debatable as to whether or not you could defend the program.
If you had six hundred youngsters, you would only have six
such youngsters on the average, and this would make it highly
debatable. If you had three thousand youngsters, you would
have thirty youngsters or with four thousand youngsters, you
DIRECT EXAI-IIWATIOW - Goldhauiraer - 1
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhansmer 37 9
would have forty youngsters, which would make it possible to
offer several languages, probably, at this level.
What I'm saying is that by the creative administrativ
deployment of resources in a large high school, you can accom
plish the end of providing a much broader and richer educations
program if you use this concept of the advanced educational
par!;. At the same time, you can provide the school within the
school concept, the breaking down of the enrollment within the
school, in such a fashion as to preserve the students* closer
identity with a particular faculty that would be associated
with their educational program, with, the counseling and sub
ordinate administrative personnel.
Strangely enough, even though you can provide more
resources in that type of a plan, there are other kinds of
savings that do not make the total cost of the high school
increase.
Q My concern is Little Rock. What would it do to the
football team? Would you react to that?
THE COURT: Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: Strike that question, Your Honor, but
that is a major concern, I think.
THE WITNESS: There is a point, Your Honor, that
might be valuable, and that is that some of the larger high
schools such as I have been describing, if a school, for
instance, of four thousand youngsters were divided into three
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internal schools, that school might have three^varsity teams
and might also encourage the larger and better rounded intra-
mura1 program.
THE COURT: Excuse roe, Doctor.
Mr. Walker, I am enjoying the Doctor’s testimony,
but I am coming back to this point raised by Mr. Friday.
There is no possibility of going to this plan by this
September, and that’s what we are talking about, isn’t it?
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, there is another plan before
the Court, hopefully, or will be shortly, which I think can
be implemented by the Court.
THE COURT: Well, as I say, this is very fine, and
a man of Dr. Goldhamner's reputation, I enjoy hearing, but I
am thinking about what we are spending our energies on.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I am trying to lay the
frame work for what has already been introduced, a plan which
we submit that would cost the district between approximately
two and three hundred thousand dollars to implement this year.
It is based upon a combination of the Oregon plan and the
Parsons plan, and it has already been introduced by Mr. Friday,
I think, as a part of the materials considered by the inte
gration committee. It was prepared by a number of Negro
citizens of the city and presented to the board of directors
at a special committee meeting that they had during, I think,
June of this year.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhauaner
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 381
I have consulted with Dr. Goldhansner about this,
and in view of the fact that it parallels the Oregon plan,
I would like to go into it.
THE COURT: All right.
This is the plan presented by John Walker, it's
headed
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I want it stipulated that
at least a dozen Negro people participated in the preparation
of this plan, and they represent organizations which range
from the Council of Human Relations to the Urban League and
the N.A.A.C.P. and the Community Action Program.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, Doctor, you have had an opportunity — before
we get to that plan, Your Honor, let's go to their plan.
You have seen the geographic attendance area plan
prepared by the district, haven't you?
A Yes, 1 have.
q Would you state to the Court whether, in your judgmen
as an educator, that is a plan for desegregation?
A No. Of course, it's a plan for establishing attendar.
boundaries for school attendance units. It would not meet the
criteria we think would be professionally acceptable for
declaring this & unitary school system. It's a standard school
attendance boundary map that we customarily use to distribute
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer
to parents to indicate to them which school their children
will attend.
You will notice, and I'm sorry I can't tell you the
exact areas designated, but this one is the junior high school
area --
MR. WALKER: 1 think that is the senior high school
Dr. Goldhammer.
THE WITNESS: 1 think this is the junior high schoc
area in front of me, is it not?
THE COURT: The junior high?
THE WITNESS: Yes. In the junior high school area,
Henderson Junior High School area, we have only two Negro
youngsters and 880 white. Contrast that with the Booker
Junior High School area, which would have 705 Negroes and
136 whites, or the Central High area — no, the West Side
Junior High, I'm sorry, which would have 398 Negro and 471
white. Forest Heights area, which would have no Negroes and
908 white. Obviously, it does not meet the criteria of
acceptability in regard to the criteria for desegregation,
which I stated earlier.
I would say that from the perusal that I did of
this plan last night, I would have to come to the conclusion t
we would really not improve upon the present freedom of choice
system, as I understand it, by going into this system by itsel
I'd like to reiterate the one statement I made that
362
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DIRECT 3S3
1 think it’s quite fundamental for this Court to consider,
from an educational point of view, and that is that there is
no one single technique that has been experimented with in
this country that 1 would find to do the job acceptably in
Little Rock.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Do you mean by that you would have to employ or
deploy several alternatives simultaneously in order to achieve
the result?
A That's right. For instance, if you pair Pulaski
Heights and West Side, you would — and 1 say put three grades
in Pulaski Heights and three alternate grades in West Side —
you would accomplish,thent the purpose through pairing. You
could still have these attendance boundaries eliminating the
one in between. You could pair those two and come much closer
to the problem of eliminating the dual school system; but I
would be of the opinion ~ and my geography fails me a little
bit here as to knowing the distances that might bo involved.
In order not to work & hardship on the children,
and in order to pair the schools* you might have to do some
bussing at the school district expense. So, you would be
creating in this hypothetical situation three techniques;
one, the creation of attendance boundaries since all of the
children of, say, grade nine would attend either the Pulaski
Heights or West Side Junior High School attendance areas.
EXAMINATION ~ Goldhammer
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D IR EC T EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 384
You would be creating a pairing of the two schools by virtue
of the fact you would have some grades in the one, and the
other grades for that age level in the other; and then you
would be using ecmie bussing as well in order to relieve severe
hardship upon the children involved. There would d s three
techniques that might be involved to be able to accomplish
the objectives of the previous Court orders in tiu.6 instance.
Q Now, I show you the senior high school map, which
is Defendant’s Exhibit 14.
A Well, you have basically the same problem. There
is some improvement, incidentally, here in that you do have a
larger concentration of white youngsters in Mann High School,
and 1 believe — I'm not sure, are there any white students in
Mann High School at the present time?
Q I think the testimony will show there are not.
A I think you would improve the situation from the
number of white students assigned to Mann High School under
this plan, but you would still have only three youngsters in
Hall High School, and I see you have designated Park View
High School here as a senior high school, and there would be
only 56 Negro youngsters in Park View. So, you would still
not meet the criteria we would say would be necessary.
Q While we are on Park View, would you state whether
or not the Oregon tears ever recommended to the Little Rock
School District that that school be opened as a high school
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or state really what recommendations you did make.
A I think that basically Mr. Parsons stated the
situation, that we had been asked to review the situation tc
determine whether or not it would make it impossible for us
to develop a satisfactory plan for the complete desegregation
of the schools, and the board was reluctant to proceed to
acceptance of the contract for construction until we had
reviewed it.
And, our statement was that the situation, as far
as housing,was becoming extremely critical in the Little Rock
District. To delay would merely augment the critical nature
of the situation. We did not have time in our study to try to
review the selection of additional sites, and as we reviewed
various alternatives for our plan that were in progress, we
came to the conclusion that we could fit it in as some type
of school unit that would be dequately desegregated, and, I
believe, it was not to be designated at that time — and I
think I recall Mr. Parsons saying — as any particular grade
level, merely a secondary school facility.
THE COURT: Just as a school.
THE WITNESS: Just as a school, yes.
So, substantially, recalling that area in the confer
Dr.Bautabarger and I had with the board, substantially what has
been stated in the record is my perception of the situation.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhnmmer 385
BY MR. WALKER:
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhamroer 386
Q I show you what is Defendant’s Exhibit 12, Dr.
GoIdhammer, and ask if you have seen that document before?
A Yes.
Q Would you state whether that breakdown on attendance
lines represents a substantial change over the present situates
if any?
A Well, my off-the-cuff and rather hasty comparison
would indicate no. 1 have not had a chance to give it the
most detailed o£ considerations because for one thing, I
recognize at the beginning this, again, did not meet the
criteria for a complete desegregation of the elementary schools
I would also note that this bases the plan upon the
continuation of a number of obsolescent buildings, and every
effort should be made in the interest of all the youngsters
who attend the buildings to eliminate them and replace them
as soon as possible.
THE COURT: Of course, one of our problems, Doctor,
is that you are rightfully interested in what should be done
for the long term, but we are confronted here primarily today
with what we should do week after next. Obviously, they are
going to have to use the buildings they have now.
THE WITNESS: I recognize that situation, Your Hone:
THE COURT: And that is unfortunate, but. that is
what we do have to do
THE WITNESS: I would hope that in the presentation
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DIRECT EXAMINATION ■- Coldhanimer 337
of a complete plan -- I realize in. the time Involved this
hasn't been, able to be accomplished — but if this were the
plan that the Court approved, that the stages for development
of the total school system into a more complete plan of
elimination of the dual school system would be presented with
the aecaptanc : of this plan.
THE COURT: Of course, the Court is confronted with
this, Doctor: the school board wishes to have until December
1st to formulate a more permanent plan, but the plaintiffs
are insisting we do something by September 1st. That is the
problem that confronts the Court.
THE WITNESS: That, sir, is your problem.
BY HR. WALKER:
Q Would you look at that map again, Dr. Baumberger?
A Dr. Goldhamsner»
Q All right, I’m sorry.
Would you state whether you. have an opinion as to
whether if those lines had been drawn in a different manner,
a better racial balance could have been achieved in the centr "
city schools?
A Well, just looking at the map — of course, in our
study of the situation we had a huge map in our office— unfor
tunately ,we couldn't transport it to Little Rock although we
discussed it — in which we had located just about every
youngster as to his grade level and whether he belonged
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhatnmer 338
to the minority or majority group of the community; and we
attempted by this pin map to see the arrangements that would
be made insofar as the individual attendance boundaries of
youngsters were concerned.
I would hate to have to say without seeing the
distribution of youngsters.
Q All right, Dr. Goldhaminar, let me just refer to the
central city schools which are listed on your map. Let me
refer specifically to Stephens School. Do you see it thereV
A Yes, sir.
Q White students 83, Negro students 365?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you notice that there are within reasonable
proximity of Stephens some six or seven elementary schools?
A Yes.
Q And that at lease four of those schools have over
whelmingly white majorities?
A Yes.
Q I'm referring to --
HR. WALKER: Are you following me. Your Honor?
Stephens, and the schools I'm referring to are Oakhurst,
Garland, Lee, and FairPark, within reasonable proximity of
Stephens.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Doctor, do you have an opinion as to whether the
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IlEGT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 389
students in Stephens School — or the lines could have been
drawn at Stephens so as to place a larger number of Negro
pupils into the surrounding white schools?
A From my experience in that area, my feeling would
be that if probably could have been done. I want to qualify
that only because of the fact I don't have the exact resident La
distribution of the youngsters in that area.
This is one reason why, incidentally, in our report
we went to the larger school concept, because it was perfect Im
possible you could have one school or two schools paired in
this area that would actually do the complete job of desegre
gation, using primarily the base of existing facilities and
adding on to them to accommodate any increase in enrollment.
So, my suspicion from recalling the type of data
and using it as a hypothetical situation, yes, it could have
been done.
Q 1 see. Is there any educational reason to justify ••
well, is there any educational philosophy that would cause one
to stay away from larger elementary schools as opposed —
THE COURT: Mr. Talker, we can't enlarge those
schools between now and September 1st. Let's decide what kind
of hearing we are having here.
If you want to give then until December 1st, then
we will get into the long-term business. Do you see the
dilemma we are in, Mr. Walker?
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position.
it appear
DIRECT EX/
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, let me
Maybe we aren't as far apart as
s that way, and it should not.
THE COURT: The Doctor is in an
iM IK A l iOi.1 ~ G oluham m er
sort of state our
it seems. Sometimes
390
unfortunate pos itic n
here.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, our position -- I never
stated this, and I want the Court to know — is that this
district has had more than ample time --
THE COURT: I would agree with you on that, Mr.
Walker.
attempted
MR. WALKER: The second thing is that we have
to cooperate with the defendants in trying to
arrive at a constitutional plan for a long period of time.
The third thing is that: we are primarily concerned
about the education that Negro pupils, and all pupils for that
matter, get in this school system. We want them to have the
best education possible.
The fourth thing, though, is that we want the
district to come up with a plan which will have lasting long
time benefits for all pupils that will, once and for all, clear
up this situation, and get us out of litigation.
Now, we are not taking the position in this
litigation that we have to have all of the now.
THE COURT: How much of it do you want now?
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we are in favor of a plan
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m HISCT EXAl lit TAT ION Goldhammcr 3 9 1
which, for this year, brings about some different racial
balance than we now have in each one of the schools. We would
like to have the district in a position where it would come
up with a plan in September whereby the Negro and white pupils
are disbursed on some other basis than what you have.
Now, our position, further, is that if you come up
with this plan now — the one that they have — it's going to
only accelerate the day when we have de facto segregation
re sidentially.
So, what we want for September — and I’m speaking
from a legal point of view now -- is complete faculty desegre
gation and disbursal of white pupils and Negro pupils through
out the central city schools in the western part of the city
on some different basis than this. It need not be on a 70-30
basis for now, if ever; but we do want the district -- if you
do require them to do that -- to come forth within a reasonable
period of time — like two months — with a plan which brings
about a unitary school system,and which also leaves the level
of education at least where it is for all pupils.
THE COURT: If we are going by September 1st, I
think December 1st would be perfectly reasonable, if we are
going by September 1st. That would give everybody plenty of
tit e to litigate. As you know, we have hearings pretty quick
on these things.
HR. WALKER: Your Honor, I call your attention to
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 392
the fact that -- I
THE COURT: I wouldn't want to order this faculty
desegregated without knowing where we are going on the pupil.
I think it's harder,, actually, to stick the pupils in different
Islots than it is overnight to reorganize the teaching situation
I'm trying to just lay it on the table.
MR. WALKER: I want to do the same thing. The
district has clearly had ample time ~~
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, nobody would agree with you
more than I would. You know I have been in this case longer
than anybody in this room?
MR. WALKER: We want to take the position of
reasonableness here. We believe that the board is really —
and I'm serious about this — bordering on contempt. We are
not pursuing --
THE COURT: Don't you think they think I mean bus ind
now?
MR. WALKER: I hope so, Your Honor.
What we would prefer the Court to do, in view of
the needs of the teachers, and the needs of the pupils, is
order substantial faculty desegregation this year; something
less than 70-30 perhaps, but at least half and half in each
one of the schools, and a little more equitable balance in
these schools which are from west of University — east of
University on.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Coldhairaner 3 9 3
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The Stephens School ought not be used this year at
all as a Negro school. Those pupils could be disbursed through
out the system, or sou>: other alternative plan whereby the pupi
are disbursed could be devised by the school district wxthxn a
reasonable period oi. time} and the same would be true with
regard to the junior high schools, using Soutn West and iuluSK.1
He ighto.
Those are items in. the plan we have presented to the
board, which they have not even discussed as a board at a bosre
meeting. That is where we are, and perhaps the Court could
give us some indication now with what is here, just as to where
we are going. We are not anxious to appeal at this stage an
adverse decision, nor do we anticipate an adverse decision, bu
we would like to be in a position whereby we could have a perm
solution to the problems before the and of 1968 that is known
all people.
THE COURT: If it's humanly possible — and I live
and occupy this post — * you are going to have some kind of
permanent solution before the next year, before September of
1969, but I don’t knew what we can do by September 1.
The only thing 1 can do to be frank with you, is to
order this zoning in between now and September 1st. The teachc
offer sons more fundamental problems, and I would hesitate on
that.
MR., WALKER: Your Honor, the problem identified her
Is
ne-
t o
rs
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Coldhnmmer 394
is that the white teachers who are in majority are the problem.
The Negro teachers do not mind being assigned to white schools.
Now, if the white teachers could be assured there would be
racial balance in each one of the schools, faculty dcsegregatid
wouldn't present a problem.
THE COURT: I know, but I can't assure them that,
Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: I think, Your Honor, an equitable plan,
according to the criteria that Dr. Goldhammer has set out,
could assure them of that; and I would hope that the Court
would set some guidelines and permit the parties to brief the
issue of what is required by the Supreme Court decisions, takir
into account the latest case of the Fourth Circuit that I
cited yesterday.
I would certainly think we would be in a position
whereby we would know what the ultimate objective is to be,
and then move on, at least within a reasonably short: period of
time, to getting that.
TIE COURT: Of course, that is one reason I did that
this morning. That is ray present view on what the law is, Mr.
Walker.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, in all deference to the
Court, I think that the law would have to be — that aspect of
it would have to be determined after briefing by us; and
perhaps it might be helpful in the meantime for us to have
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O o l d h n t r i n i e r 395F.’-rAMTMATTO* I -
certified to the Court of Appeals for a decis'Ton, just an
interpretation as to really what is required by the Supreme
Court dec is ions.
THE COURT: I don’t think it’s in quite that —
I would hesitate to do that in the interim of this co.se. No.,
I don’t think that would be the thing to do.
KR. WALKER.: With this witness, Your Honor, could
I suggest wa maybe take a five minute recess so that 1 could
try to wind up where we are going.
THE COURT: I’m trying to be as helpful as I can.
Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: Well, I understand that, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Lot’s make it ten minutes, and if counsc
wishes to discuss it with the Court, they may coma in chambers,
(A brief recess was taken,)
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THE COURT: You may proceed, gentlemen.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Dr. Goluhumnier, do you have an opinion Laseu on
the data that I have presented to you and the plans of the
district whether it would be possible at this late stage in
the year for the school district to bring about better racial
balance in faculty assignments for the current coming school
year, and if so what is that opinion?
A Well, on the basis of the evidence of the report
that -- our report, and I'm referring to table 11 on page 55,
where — and Mr. Fowler referred to that this morning, we
asked a scientific sample of teachers to accept one of two
statements, and they had to accept one or the other so tnat
they could choose between — they had to choose between all
white and all Negro which would they choose, they had to choose
between highly motivated all Negro children ana highly motivate,
all white children, and average motivated all white children,
all white children, and both white and Negro children, and
both white and Negro children, and all Negro children. Now,
the interesting thing is that as far as the sampling of white
teachers is concerned, which I think would be the problem area
concerned here, when they had to choose between all white
cnildren and all Negro onilaren, 5 7.u-o chose all whice onilaxc*
when they had to choose between highly motivated all negro
DIRECT EXAMIiMAT ION ~ Co.Id hammer 396
children and average motivated all white children, 43.6% chose
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DIRECT EXAMINATION Goidhammer 397
highly motivated all Negro chxxuren. When i-hep licit* co ciioô *.
between all white children ana both white ana negro cniluren,
47.2% chose both white and Negro children, and when they hae
to choose between both white and Negro children and ail deyr--
chilaren, 97. 3t> chose both whxte ana Negro cnile^er..
Q Would you interpret that, Dr. Gold hammer, what
does this mean?
7\ Well , to me, and you can. give various interprcta
tions, but to me it meant that there would be reluctance on
the part of the white teachers to teach — on the main group
of white teachers, to teach all Negro children, but that at
least 50% of the white teachers, or approximately 50% of the
white teachers, were well prepared to teach .in a proper mix o
whites and Negro children. We talked, both formally and in
formally, with teachers. Incidentally, in 1956-57, which is
quite awhile ago, and probably primarily a different group of
teachers, I spent a considerable amount of time interviewing
teachers in the Little Rock school system. Little rock
teachers are highly professional people, and I have no ques
tion in my mind that if this Court orders the desegregation
of the faculty, the teachers will respond in a professional
fashion. They will be no different than any other profession
al group. If a physician is called to an emergency ward and
he has to tx'eat a patient, his professional responsibility
impels him to treat a patient. I'm sure, Your honor, that if
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y o u a s s i g n a l a w y e r t o a c a s e , y o u e x p e c t t h a t l a w y e r t o g o
t h a t j o b p r o f e s s i o n a l l y , r e g a r d l e s s o f t h e r a c e o f t h e c l i e n t ,
a n d I ' m t h o r o u g h l y c o n v i n c e d t h a t t h e t e a c h e r s i n L i t t l e R o c k
tire a n e x t r e m e l y f i n e , p r o f e s s i o n a l l y - o r i e n t e d g r o u p o f
t e a c h e r s , a n d t h e y w i l l r e s p o n d t o t h e r e q u i r e m e n t s o f t h i s
C o u r t i n t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h t h e y w o u l d b e p r o f e s s i o n a l l y e x
p e c t e d o f t h e m t o r e s p o n d . I t h i n k t h e r e s h o u l d b e associate.:,,
w i t h t h a t , h o w e v e r , some o p p o r t u n i t i e s f o r t h e m t o u p g r a d e
t h e i r c o m p e t e n c i e s i n d e a l i n g w i t h a m i x o f c h i l d r e n c o m i n g
f r o m v a r i o u s g r o u p s , a n d t h a t w o u l d b e t h e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y o f
t h e s c h o o l s y s t e m . Nov;, t o s a y i t i n o n e w o r d , M r . W a l k e r ,
o n e s e n t e n c e , m y a n s w e r t o y o u w o u l d b e t h a t m y o p i n i o n i s
t h a t a c t i n g u n d e r c o u r t o r d e r , t h e t e a c h e r s i n L i t t l e R o c k
DIRECT LjauTlRATIGR - w o ici hammer J.-'O
w o u l d r e s p o n d e x t r e m e l y f a v o r a b l y t o t h e e x i g e n c i e s a n d
m a k i n g t h e n e c e s s a r y a d j u s t m e n t s .
Q D r . G o l d h a m m e r , I h a v e p r e v i o u s l y g i v e n y o u a
p l a n w h i c h w a s p r e s e n t e d t o t h e b o a r d b y m e - -
A Y e s , s i r , I b e l i e v e I h a v e t h a t p l a n n o w .
Q H a v e y o u h a d a n o p p o r t u n i t y t o s t u d y t h a t p l a n ?
A Y e s , I h a v e b e e n a b l e t o s t u d y i t s o m e w h a t i n
c o m p a r i s o n w i t h o u r p l a n a n d s o m e w h a t i n c o m p a r i s o n w i t h t h e
p l a n t h a t M r . P a r s o n s p r e s e n t e d .
Q W o u l d you state whether this plan would bring
a b o u t m o r e e f f e c t i v e t o t a l d e s e g r e g a t i o n i n t h e L i t t l e R o c k
s c h o o l s y s t e m t h a n w o u l d t h e p l a n t h a t h a d b e e n p r e p a r e d a n a
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399
presented to the Court by the school district?
A You are referring to this zoning plan?
Q Zoning plan.
A Yes, it would be a much superior plan under the
criteria that I suggested. It would be more complete, superior
to the freedom of choice plan. There are some administrative
bones that would have to be worked out in it, but this would
be anticipated obviously, would have to be reviewed from that
standpoint in some care, but the plan is basically a modifi
cation of both the school park concept of our plan has some
bearing in it, and also has some aspects of the complex plan
that was presented in Hr. Parsons* report.
Q Now, would you state whether there are any edu
cational — whether this problem, this particular plan is
deficient from an educational point of view in any respect,
and, if so, would you state what it is?
I>1.;'i :r;T EXAMINATION - i .. ic r
A There is one glaring deficiency in it, ana this
is the rotation concept. I have to understand it better really
to analyze it, but I would say that the rotation concept here
between the four quadrants is -- would not be acceptab le to
me as an educator, but that isn't an essential part of the pic..
There are other ways in which the same objectives could be
achieved. Educationally, this is primarily an administrative
plan in order to achieve certain administrative results, as is
the Parsons report, ami as is the so-called Oregon report, so
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D X RE CT EXAK1IIA T 10 N Goldhammer 4 0 0
basically you could achieve the objectives in ray estimation
you could achieve the objectives of creating unitary school
system at the same time that you provide for added educational
benefits for the children.
Q Do you think, Dr. Goldhammer, what opinion, Dr.
Goldhammer, as to whether this plan that we are discussing now
or modification of this plan could be prepared and implemented
by September, 1968, in a large part, and if so, under what
conditions? I had in mind whether or not. one of those con
ditions would include perhaps deferring the opening of school
for several weeks?
A Yes, sir, it might be necessary because I think
that --- let me state one thing that has been stated earlier
here in C ourt, there would be disruption to the school
program. There has been disruption or deficiencies I believe
as a result of the continuance of dual school system, and this
would be one of the factors taken into consideration. I'm
sure that every possible resource in the central office, and
any computer facilities that are available to the school dis
trict would have to be burnt overtime and in order to get the
plan on the road by a reasonable date in September, but if
the -- in the opinion of the Court the matter is of such
urgency the answer obviously is yes, we can do anythings that
we have to do remarkably administratively when we are pressed
to do the job. I would say that there would be some
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldharamer 401
consequences of moving this rapidly, and these consequences
have to be understood at the beginning. It would not be
entirely smooth running, but from the standpoint of could it
be done administratively if v/e were given some extra leeway,
maybe a couple of weeks, yes, in my estimation it could be
done. It is a matter of whether or not you want to have the
consequences of moving that rapidly.
Q Would you identify some of the consequences?
A Well, the consequences would be that we would have
to obviously make some shifts in assignments against individ
ual's desires, and there would be some dislocation there, and
there would also be some enthusiasm. One of the things as an
administrator I learned a long time ago is to make some un
expected shifts in order to stir up tie organization and get
people on their toes. Of course, I'm in a different position,
Your Honor, because I'm on tenure in my position.
THE COURT: So am I.
THE WITNESS: But my feeling is that there would
be some community rough spots, anu there would have to be
some effort made and extra exertion on the part of administra
tors in order to answer some of the questions that would arise
in the community. I would suspect there would have to be
some emergency uses of some funds that would have to be di
verted from other plans and other purposes to the imple
mentation of this plan. I would be concerned about the
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhanuner 402
transportation situation, and I'm not sure how much trans
portation this would entail , and whether or not it would in
volve more finances than would be indicated in Mr. Parsons'
plan, but I think that, this would necessitate in order to give
an equal educational opportunities for all youngsters some
district sponsor transportation. That might be the most —
one of the most difficult problems because of the fact ob
viously the district couldn't get he capital tc invest in
buses would probably have to use current transportation
facilities within the community.
Q Dr. Goldhammsr, do you have an opinion as to how
much time it would take the administration to arrange to
shift say this year faculty members so that say the Negro
schools, that is the predominately Negro schools or all Negro
schools, would have say anywhere from 30% to 50% white faculty
members?
A That is pretty hard not knowing the internal
system that is available, but I would assume it would take
at least a month to do it. I don't know the system, I don't
know the extent to which computers could be used to identify,
whether or not the information that would want to use to
identify the teachers that would be so shifted, but a month's
time would probably require some overtime.
Q Some overtime. Now, do you have an opinion as
to whether the shifting that is required will result in some
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403DIRECT EXAMINATION - GoIdhammer
dislocation at anytime you undertake it are problems taut nave
been previously stated?
A Yes, you can expect some dislocation, the more you
make changes under emergency situation the greater will be the
amount of dislocation. Of course, this issue has gone on for
a considerable amount of time in the community. There are
obviously as one looks at teh reaction to our suggestions in
our report, there’obviously are some very strong feelings
about it in this community so that the opportunity has been
afforded for individuals to have very strong positions and
even groups to have been formed, so you would have to have
you would have to countenance dealing with a vast array of
problems of that sort which would arise.
MR. WALKER: May I have a moment, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, at this time I would h x e
to make an oral motion to the Court, a motion to the effect
that the district be given until November 15th of this year
to prepare a comprehensive total permanent desegregation plan
for this school
pupils will not
district in every respect, a plan in which
suffer because of the faculty assignments, c::
because of the pupil desegregation plan which has been pre
pared. We are concerned primarily about the education of
pupils, the pupils who have been shortchanged for the longest
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DIRECT K ’AMIlu 11 a - Coldhanmor 404
period of time are Negro pupils, and we want them to at last
finally realize equal educational opportunities within this
system. I would, therefore, respectfully request that the
Court recess the hearing with the school board being directed
to prepare such a comprehensive plan, which is evident from
the evidence needs to be prepared, and presented to the Court
within a reasonable period of time, and we suggest the date
November 15th, with the hope that the Court would set a hear
ing date before the end of '68, whereby this matter can be
finally resolved, at least presented to the Court.
MR. FRIDAY: The defendants do join in the motion
for the .recess to November 15th, we do not adopt the language
of the motion, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Then, Mr. Walker, do I understand you
are suspending the direct examination of Dr. Goldhammer?
MR. WALKER: Yes, at this time, Your Honor, I
would like to reserve the right to call him back at a later
time if necessary.
THE COURT: Mr. Friday, I suppose under the cir
cumstances you wish to withhold and reserve cross examination
of the witness until a later time?
MR. FRIDAY: Ye, sir, I will reserve cross exami
nation until resumption of the hearing in November.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, at least at this stage
of the game reserving the motion on the aspect of the necessicj
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to litigate the pupil desegregation aspects of the lawsuit thu
far, I would respectfully request that the Court enter an ordei
requiring the district to provide counsel fees for the plain
tiffs on the faculty aspects of this plan up to and including
the present moment, and that the amount be determined on the
basis of a statement to be submitted, and the fee to be deter
mined on the basis of reasonableness rather than other criteri
THE COURT: Well, I have had a long conference
DIRECT EXAMIl-IAT ION - C oldharamer 405
with counsel during the recess and I've listened very carefully
to the testimony of Dr. Goldhammer, as well as Mr. Parsons,
and Mr. Fowler, and others, and I think the motion is good;
I think it is the best thing for the school district, and I’m
going to grant the motion.
But I want to make this order from the bench. I
will withhold ruling for allowance of counsel fees on faculty
desegregation issue, although frankly I have the impression
from what I have heard in this hearing, that at least for the
last two years the school board has not acted in good faith in
desegregation of the faculty.
I will recess the hearing until sometime in
December. I cannot from the bench now exactly determine the
date, and I will notify the parties later. X would guess it
would be sometime between December 15th and December 20th. I
would have to advise you later after I look at my calendar.
Now, the school board will file a supplemental plan not later
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406
than November 13th, and as I said at the outset: this morning,
the law requires that the. present: biraclal school system in
Little Rock be abolished, and a unitary system be established.
As to faculty, I'm not telling the board just what
plan to file, but I will say this, that if it: does not file
a plan that is equal to it or better, the Court will order for
the next year that the fnc
Rock be reassigned, oithei
the ratio, by race, of ths
the ratio of the teachers
ulty in the school system in Little
in accordance with approximately
pupils of the school district cr by
of the district by race, one of thos;
two. I use the word approximately because I know you cannot
do this exactly to the tenth of one percent, so in that plan,
that plan must include something of that nature.
As to reassignment of pupils, as I said, freedom
of choice is out in Little Rock under the ruling of the Supren
Court, and I do not wish to see a plan filed November 15th
including freedom of choi
That plan, in the languag
zoning or some other rneth
system, establish a units
in Little Rock colored sc
’’schools".
ce because I *m ruling that out now.
e of the Supreme Court, must be either-
,od that will abolish the dual. biraciiL
ry system so that we no longer have
hoo 1 s and white sc.hoo 1 s , but just pi
The hearing :irecessed — I will pick a date ---
is recessed until approx i vnn ho 3 y the middle of December, exact
date to be set later. The school board will file a supplement
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plan not later than 14 vember 15th.
Any comments, Gentlemen?
MR. FRIDAY: No comment.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I don't think it is clear
that the Court intends that the supplemental plan cover every
aspect of desegregation, of every vestige of the dual school
system remaining --
THE COURT: I would not want to expand on the
language of the United States Supreme Court. I quoted it
almost verbatim.
Anything further?
We are adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 5:40 o'clock, p.ra., the above-
entitled matter was adjourned subject to further proceedings.)
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408
C E R T I F I C A T E
It Dean C. Leasure, do hereby certify that I am the
Official Court Reporter for the United States District Court,
Eastern District of Arkansas, 'Western Division; that on
August 15 and 16, 19(»r, the proceedings reported herein in the
case of Delores Clark, et al, v. The Board of Education ox
the Little Rock School District, et al, were had before the
Honorable Gordon E. Young, Judge cf said Court, and that ihc
foregoing pages of typewritten material constitute a t»ue t»nd
correct transcription of the trial and testimony at the time
and place, and thereafter reduced to typewritten form at my
direction and under my supervision.
Dated, this _____ day of September, 1968.
Dean C. Leasure, Reporter.
40Ha
RESPONSE TO MOTION OF MoDONALD APPLICANTS FOR INTERVENTION
[ĵ OTlOfi OMlTTCD^
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FCR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
DELORES CLARK, et al. ,
Plaintiffs
VS.
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, et al.,
Defendants
YOLANDA G. TOWNSEND, a minor, et al.,
Plaintiff-
Intervenors
LITTLE ROCK CLASSROOM TEACHERS
ASSOCIATION,
Intervenors
MICHAEL McDONALD, a minor, et al,,
Applicants for
Intervention
RESPONSE TO MOTION FOR LEAVE TO
INTERVENE AS PARTIES PLAINTIFF.
CIVIL ACTION
NO. LR-64-C-155
For their Response to Applicants' Motion for Leave to
Intervene as Parties Plaintiff, Defendants state:
I.
Defendants admit that applicants for intervention are all
white minors eligible to attend schools in the Little Rock School
system, which are attended predominately by white students.
II.
Defendants deny all allegations of and facts contained
in the Motion except those herein expressly admitted.
III.
Further responding, Defendants assert that intervention
Response to Motion of McDonald Applicants for Intervention
408b
of applicants at this time would delay and prejudice the further
adjudication of the right* of the original parties,
WHEREFORE, Defendanta pray that the Court deny applicants *
Motion for Leave to Intervene herein, for coats and all other proper
relief,
SMITH, WILLIAMS, FRIDA! & BOWI
Attorney* for Defendants
1100 Boyle Building
Little Rock, Arkansas
% ________Herache1 H. Friday
CERTIFICATE Cf SERVICE
I, Herschel H. Friday, one of the attorney® for the
Defendants, certify that I have served a copy of the foregoing
Response and Memorandum upon Meaara. John W. Welker, Eugene R.
Warren and Phillip E. Kaplan by placing same in the United States
Mail addressed to th® above at their respective addressee this
10th day of December, 1968.
Her ache 1 H. Friday
ORDER DENYING LEAVE TO INTERVENE MCDONALD, ET AL.
F I L E D
408c
y wantmmm wmwm iimci mimm&t m mmm&m wtnazm
L’tC j 1968
Dep. Clerk
insane cm m , «t ai
v. M*. yt»«-<*€»l§S
a s a mmm m mwsmim m *sm
u n u sock acBoet. dxsykxct, «t ai
youucda a. w m m x m , * minor, ®t mi
utwtJt b ocx. e e s c m s s m m i t i w
MSS. DCftUI SHEMKM, et ml
wuamexwn
D i f a w
KJUtttTXff-
SlfSWflBSWJ
SUTBJWlSi®!#
I f S I M M
The Court £i«sl« that tho motion® to lntervem filed by
Michael *te»®nald smti others eo Hevmsds®r 26, IMS, and Mrs, Doyle
Speights slid other* filed DcctSbct 13, 1968, ©r® mot timely
filed. To permit those parties te intervene at this stage,
after the trial has lasted two days end is presumably half over,
would unduly complicate it wad mould s«r«t no useful purpose.
Counsel for these parti®*, heiuever, m y participate ms
amicus curiae to the extent that they will be permitted to
file written statement* of their p®s§iti©*iss and they mmy also
file legal memorandums Im support thereof, if they ar® so
advised.
Datedi December li, 1968.
/•/ mums s. WWQ
United States District Judge
) 4 08d
REPORT AND MOTION
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
/ F I L E D
N O V 15 H G 8
w.
BY: U_£hK
’Sip.' cKk—
WESTERN DIVISION
DELORES CLARK, ET AL PLAINTIFFS
v . NO. LR-64-C-15S
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE DEFENDANTS
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, ET AL
YOLANDA G . TOWNSEND, a m inor, by her PLAINTIFFS-INTERVENORS
fa ther and next friend , DR. W . H, TOWNSEND;
ET AL
REPORT AND MOTION
1.
Pursuant to the Order of the Court given from the Bench on August
16, 1968, the D efendants have adop ted , for the 1969 - 70 school y e a r, the
D esegregation Plan con tained in the R esolution a ttach ed hereto and made
a part hereo f, as if s e t out word for word h e re in . D efendants move th is
Court for an Order approving the D esegregation Plan subm itted h e re in .
WHEREFORE, D efendants pray tha t the Court approve the D eseg re
gation Plan subm itted h e re in , th a t a ll claim s of the P la in tiffs-In te rv en o rs
in th e ir C om plaint be d en ied , and th a t the C om plaint be d ism issed with
p rejud ice and th a t the D efendants have a ll o ther re lie f to w hich they may
be e n title d .
SMITH, WILLIAMS, FRIDAY & BOWEN
11th Floor Boyle Building
L ittle Rock, A rkansas
ATTORNEYS FOP. DEFENDANTS
By.
Joe D. Bell
408e
R e p o r t and M o tion
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
I , Joe D . B ell, one of th e a tto rn ey s for th e D efendan ts, ce rtify
th a t I have served a copy of the foregoing Report and Motion upon the
P la in tiffs -In te rv en o rs by p lac ing the sam e in the U nited S ta tes M ail
ad d re ssed to P la in tiffs -In te rv e n o rs ' a tto rneys of record a t th e ir re sp e c tiv e
a d d re s s e s .
This 15th day of N ovem ber, 1968.
Joe D. Bell
408£
Report and Motion ,
J ait 'j ‘
., buJL j -̂f <JL .
R E S O L U T I O N
BE IT RESOLVED by the Board of Directors of the Little
Rock School District of Fulaoki County, Arkansas:
That the following desegregation plan for the Little Rock
School District for the 1969-70 school year bo adopted and presented
to the Honorable Gordon Young, U. S. District Judge, purouant to his
Order of August 16, 1968, entered in the case of Delores Clark, et al,
v. Board of Education of Little Rock School District, et al.:
A . Faculty
The Little Rock Public Schools will assign and reassign
teachers for the 1969-70 school year to achieve the following:
1. The number of Negro teachers within each school
of the district will range from a minimum of 157, to a maximum of 457..
2. The number of white teachers within each school
of the district will range from a minimum of 557. to a maximum of 857..
B. Students
The Little Rock School District will be divided into
geographic attendance zones for elementary, junior high, and senior
high schools as indicated on the accompanying map. All students
residing in the designated 2ones will attend the appropriate school
in that zone with the following exceptions:
1. The Metropolitan Vocational-Technical High School
will serve students from the entire district. Students will indicate
their desire to attend Metropolitan before May 1, 1969. Actual
assignments will be determined from objective test results on one or
more vocational-technical aptitude inventories.
2. All teachers, who desire to do so, may enroll their
children in the schools where they are assigned to teach.
V )
4 08g
Report and Motion
Page 2
3. All students presently in the 8th, 10th, and 11th
grades will be required to choose between the school that they now
attend or the appropriate school located in the zone of residence for
the 1969-70 school year.
€
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