Correspondence from Kelley to Clerk

    DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 7
(1/26/62)

19475

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 28 
(8/16/61)

UNITED STATES

DISTRICT COURT
Southern District of Mississippi 

Jackson Division
CIVIL ACTION No. 3130

JAMES HOWARD MEREDITH, On behalf of 
himself and others similarly situated,

PLAINTIFF
V.
CHARLES DICKSON FAIR, President of the Board 

of Trustees of State Institutions of Higher 
Learning of the State of Mississippi,
Louisville, Mississippi, ET AL,

DEFENDANTS

DEPOSITION OF 
JAMES HOWARD MEREDITH

Token by Defendants
Meridian, Mississippi FILED

June 8, 1961 June 12, 1961



UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI „
19475  f

JACKSON DIVISION
i

Civil Action No■> 3, 130, I

JAMES HOWARD MEREDITH, on Behalf or Himself _  ̂ j
and Others Similarly Situated, Plaintiff j

CHARLES DICKSON FAIR, President of the Board 
of Trustees of the State Institutions of Higher 
Learning of the State of Mississippi, Louisville,
Mississippi, et al, Defendants

A P P E A R A N C E S :

PLAINTIFF'S ATTORNEYS:

R, Jess Brown, Esq,, 11,05-1/2 Washington S t,,
Vicksburg, Mississippi 

Derrick Bell, E sq ., and
Constance Baker Motley, 10 Columbus Circle,

New York 19, New York

DEFENDANTS' ATTORNEYS:

Dugas Shands, Esq., Asst, Attorney General of Mississippi, 
New Capitol B ldg., Jackson, Miss-,;

Edward L. Cates, Asst. Attorney General of Mississippi, 
New Capitol B ldg,, Jackson, M iss.; ■

Peter M. Stockett, Special Asst. Attorney General of 
Mississippi, New Capitol Bldg. ,  Jackson, Miss.

Room 308-A, Federal Building, 
Meridian, Mississippi
June 8, 1961, 11 o 'clock ,,A . M.

a



1 COUNSEL BRANDS:
2 Mr. Reporter, you have the appearances made on be-

3 half of the Defendants. Leon Lowrey and M. M. Roberts, at whose

4 request this deposition is being taken? Do you have the appear-

5 anc.es ?

6 THE REPORTER:

7 Yes. (The reporter names the appearances as set

3 out above).

9 COUNSEL SEANDS:

10 At this time the defendants on whose behalf this deposi-

u tion is taken will ask that all except the parties to this cause,

12 their counsel of record, be excused from the room, and that the

13 presence here be restricted to tcioss who are not excluded by the

14 above statement, together with the officers of the Court.

15 Do you. have any objection to that ?

18 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

17 No, sir.

18 COUNSEL SHANDS:

19 This deposition is proposed to be taken before the

2C Clerk of this Court. Miss Esther Carr is the Deputy Clerk of the

21 Southern District of Mississippi. She is here; she will swear the

22 witness, James Howard Meredith. Several days ago one of the

23 Counsel for plaintiff, Jess Brown, and I agreed Miss Carter would

24 not be required to stay in the room at all times curing the deposi-

25 tion, but that,.upon swearing the witness, she may retire as her



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convenience may suggest and if her presence is needed later, she

2 will return and perform such function as may be proper. Is that

agreeable ?

4 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

5 Yes, sir.

8 COUNSEL SHANQ3.:

S 1i I understand from Counsel for plaintiff that that agree-
s
! 8 i merit is in fact made and exists for the purpose of this deposition.

8 As I understand it, there is a further agreement between

10 counsel for plaintiff and for the two above -name d defendants that if

11 there be any objections from the plaintiff or on behalf of the defend-

12 ant, and if the witness should fail or refuse to answer any questions

13 or if an objection is made by'the defendants above mentioned, which

14 they desire? to take before the Honorable o« C. Mine, U. S. District

15 Judge in and for the Southern District of Mississippi, that instead

16 of reducing the questions and proceedings relative to those points

1? and then presenting it to the Judge formally in writing, that the

18 Reporter and the witness and Counsel for both parties may repair

19 to the• presence of the Court and upon such reading of the questions

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i and the action of respective counsel, will be submitted, to him by

21 agreement and he rule thereon. Is that a correct statement of the

22 agreement ?

23 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

24 Yes, it is.

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1 COUNSEL SHANDS;

2 Counsel for plaintiff signifies that is a correct state-

8 ment.

4 Let the record further show, as I understand from

5 Counsel for plaintiff, plaintiff himself and his counsel, have ad-
Sh0 vised me, Dugas Shands, that they propose to have the plaintiff,

7 James H. Meredith, and will have him personally present in

8 Biloxi, Mississippi, on June 12, 1961, available and ready as a

9 witness in this case.
10 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

11 That is correct.

12 COUNSEL SHANDS:

13 And that there is no necessity to procure his presence

14 that a subpoena be issued by the defendants. Is that correct?

15 COUNSEL MOTLEY:
16 That is correct. Mr. Shands, as I have indicated to

17 you-earlier, we have already subpoenaed the Registrar and the
18 President of the Board. We have not yet gotten our subpoena to
19 Mr. Jobe, the Executive Secretary. Can we have an agreement

20 he will be there on Monday ?
21 COUNSEL SHANDS:

22 Yes, he will be there.-
noCiO Is there anything Counsel for plaintiff wishes to put

24 in this record at this point?

25
A C“ Y Vp'



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COUNSEL MOTLEY;

2 No, The only thing is we would like tc have the plain-

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tiff read his deposition and sign it before it is filed. We would
1

4 like it to be noted, we have not waived the signature.

5 COUNSEL SHANDS:

8 Will that be done expeditiously ?

7 COUNSEL MOTLEY;

8 Yes, I assume the stenographer will get this depositior

9 out right soon,

10

11 I hope he does.

12 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

13 We would like the plaintiff to read it and sign it before

14 it is filed.

15 COUNSEL SlIANDS:

1.6 IX) you. waive the formalities of the Clerk-who holds

11 the proceedings submitting it to him and all of that sort of business ?

18 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

19 Yes, that is all right, gs long as he sees it,.

20 ' COUNSEL SHANDS:

21 Suppose there bs some discrepancy between what he

22 thinks he said and the Reporter thinks he said; what is the breadth

23 of your request in that regard?

24 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

25 We would then set forth what, we think the plaintiff said 

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and he will refuse i.o sign anything he claims he didn't. I think that 

is the procedure,

COUNSEL UMNPS;

That is the reason I asked that question. What formal­

ity .and whal period of time will that entail? Will that be done ex­

peditiously ?

C CW K 3£Ii|O TiW Y; .

Yes; I should think this all. could be done— I assume ycju 

want, to use this on the nearing and have it available for Monday V 

COUNSEL SUANDS

I make no commitment one way or the other, but 1 don't 

want the formalities which you are familiar with under the rule on 

his reading it and signing it to interfere with that should I desire to 

use it,

COUNSEL I.M ITTTX,

We will do everything in our power to get this deposi­

tion- in order for the hearing on Monday.

COUNSEL. SB AMDS:

Whom would you want that aeposition submitted to; 

whom shall we deal with on that? Who will be available, that is 

what I am trying to get at ?

COUNSEL MOTLEf:

We will be here. Mr. Brown and I will both be in 

Jackson until .probably Friday or Saturday,



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How could you be reached ?

COUNSEL MOTLEY-;

I can give you a phone number where you can reach me, 

COUNSEL SHANDS;

COUNSEL SKAHDS:

Will 'you do that? Give me where I can reach both you 

and Jess so that that could be done expeditiously.

COUNSEL MOTLEY:

All right.

COUNSEL SHANPS:

Is there any objection or exception to Miss Carter 

swearing the witness and proceeding as we have discussed? 

COUNSEL MOTLEY:

Nc.

COUNSEL SHANDS:

Miss Carter, would you please swear this witness? 

DEPUTY CLERK CARTER:

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Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to 

give in this deposition will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing 

but the truth, so help you God.

THE WITNESS:

I do.

At this point we ask the exclusion be active.

Mr, Miller, are you a lawyer and officer of the Court?

A t



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1 COUNSEL SHANDS1
0J& For the purpose of clarification, Counsel for plaintiff i
3 states that the Board of Trustees of Institutions of Higher Learning

4 as an entity is not made a party defendant but the members thereof

5 are made the parties defendant, together with the other defendants

6 named.

7 COUNSEL MOTLEY;

8 Well, I think: that if the Board of Trustees is a corpora-

9 tion we could, sue the Board as such.

10 .COUNSEL 3HANDS:

11 All I am trying to do is just to know who your parties

12 defendant are.

13 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

14 It is my understanding if it is unincorporated 3/0u have

15 to name the individual members of the Board, and if you are suing

16 an unincorporated body, a Board and individual members thereof.

17 I don't know if there is any distinction thereof or not, but I under-

18 stand we have to sue the individual members of the Board.

19 COUNSEL SHANDS.

20 Do I understand correctly that the statement I have just

2i made is a correct statement, that it is the members of the Board

22 you are suing ?

23 COUNSEL MQTLEY;

24 And the Board. It is an unincorporated unit. I didn't
O KCi kj find anything in your statute indicating it was a corporation.

r> ,«*



j.o.
1JL COUNSEL SHANDS:

2 I don't think, it. is.

3 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

| 4 I think under the rules if it is unincorporated, you

i 5 name the Board an a then you also sue the individual members of

6 that Board, If it was a corporation, we would have sued only the

? Board and would not have bothered to name the individual members

8 That is my understanding.

9 COUNSEL. SHwNDU

10 So it is the members that you are addressed to unless

11 it is an incorporated body, That is quite important from the

12 standpoint of pleading.

13 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

14 1 don’t think it is, but anyway, just a minute and I will

15 find it, I think the rule which is applicaoie, Mr. Strands s is full©

16 17(b). if you. have the rains there: 'In ait other cases, capacity

17 to sue or be sued shall be determined by the law of the state in

18 which the District Court is he .id, except (1), that a partnership or

19 other unincorporated association, which has no such capacity by

20 the law of such state, may sue or be sued in its common name

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for the purpose of enforcing for or against it a substantive right
eixstina under me Constitution or Laws of the United States."

Under that ruse ±. would say we would be suing the

23 Board as an unincorporated association and, in doing so, naming

24 the individual members of that Board. We are suing them in their

25 capacity as members of the Board. ,



COUNSEL SHANDS:

Your construction is that you are suing both the Board

and the members ?

COUNSEL MOTLEY;.

Yes.

COUNSEL SHANDS:

1 wanted that clarified.

COUNSEL MOTLEY:

1 think you can only sue an unincorporated association 

by actually naming the individual members., and here you can sue •

it as an unincorporated association, so that I think you can do both.
%■

COUNSEL SHANDS:

We do not think the Board as such is either a suable 

party or proper or necessary party. I wanted to see what your 

view;of your pleading is in view of the ambiguity on its face. 

COUNSEL MOTLEY:

Let’s clarify It- It is our intention to sue the Board of 

Trustees of the State Institutions c f Higher Learning and members 

of the Board of Trustees oi State Institutions of Higher Learning.

I think that will clarify the record as to whom we intended to sue. 

COUNSEL SHANPS:

In- their, capacity as- members of the Board ?

COUNSEL MOTLEY:

That is right.

56



r
! i JAMES HOWARD MEREDITH.

! 2 plaintiff, having been first duly sworn, as above noted, was called as i
3 an adverse witness by tjqe Defendants and, as such, was cross-

4 examined and testified, as follows:

5 3Y  COUNSEL BRANDS:

6 Q. Jame s , are yo u Jame s H, Me re dith ?

? A. That is right.

8 Speak loud enough, Tames, so they can hear you. What

9 was your answer ?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Are you the plaintiff.in this lawsuit?

12 A. That is right, sir.

13 Q. James, do you understand what your function as a wit-

14 ■: i
ness is in this lawsuit, as a.party plaintiff?

15 A>- Probably 1 don’t; I don’t understand the question.

16 . Q. Do you understand that it is your duty as a witness to

17 answer the questions that are ashed you?- Do you understand that?

18 A* Yes, sir. •

19 Q, .Do you understand that your answers are to be-responsive.

20 to the questions that I ash you ?

21 A. Eight, sir,.

22 Q. What is that ?

23 . A. . Yes, sir.

24 Q. What, is your understanding of what "responsive*1 is ?

25 A. That is to be a direct answer to the question asked.



1 Q. Without rambling around ?

2 A. "That is right.

3 • Q. Or making speeches ?

4 A. That is right, sir.

5 Q. Do you understand that you are here under oath to tell

6 the truth. the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Bo you understand that that carries to every bit of your

S testimony ?

10 A. I do,

11 Q. James, when did you first see this complaint? Do you

12 know what a complain; is ?

18 A. I assume you are talking about the—

14 Q. —You read it, didn’t you?
15 A. Yes,

18 Q. When did you first see that ?

17 ' A. You mean the one you. have ?

18 Q- The one you filed?

19 A. You want the exact date ?

20 Q. I want the date„

21 A. Let's see. The day before it was filed.

22 Q, The day before it was filed?

23 A. Yes.

24 0, Who prepared it?

9<~,

L. __

A. Mrs. Motley,

.... . mJCJEL



\1 Q, Where was it prepared?
oAmj A. I do not know.

3 Q, Was it prepared in Jackson?

4 4A. c I do not know.

5 Q. You..don't know where it was prepared?

6 A » That is right, sir.

7 Q . Did you ever talk with her about what went in this com-*

3 plaint ?

9 A, Yes, sir.

1C Q. You never-had met her before you saw this thing, had

u you?

12 A- Yes, sir.

13 Q* Where- did you meet her 7
14 Â In Jackson, Mississippi.

15 Q, When was that ?

18 * I wouldn't know the exact data.

17 .Q. Koughiy when 7
18 *

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I believe it was April -80th.

18 Q. Was that the first time you ever saw her ?

20 A, In person.

21 Q, The first time you fever talked with her on the telephone

22 A. No, sir.

23 Q. Whan did you talk with her on the telephone 7

2-4 A. . I believe it was the 6th of February,

25 Q. The 6th of February?

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A. I don't, Know If that is the exact date,

Q, Did. you call her or did she call you?

A, I called her.

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Q, Who told you to call her ?

A. We.il, I don't Know if anyone told me. I checked with

o Mr, Evers*- he is the Field Secretary- to find out how to contact

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Mrs, Motley and he Informed me and 1 called her*

Q, He Is Medgar Suers, Field Secretary of what? 

A. NAACP.

10 r\ he • What nave they got to do with this lawsuit ?

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A. Nothing.

Q, Nothing ? Are they furnish trig- you your lawyers ?

A. No, sir.

Q. They are furnishing the money for this lawsuit, aren't

they ?

COUNSEL MD iluvN

We are going to object, to your going into the question 

of financing of the litigation on the ground that it Is not material 

or relevant to the issues oi this lawsuit. The issue in tins lawsuit 

is whether the University denied him admission solely because of 

his race and color. How be manages to finance the lawsuit is not 

relevant to that issue and we are instructing' him not to answer as 

to how the suit is being financed,

COUNSEL SEA.KPS,

Q„ Have you spent any money on this lawsuit yourself ?

FQ-------------------------------------------- - ----------------------------------------- ----------------



•f 16
1 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

2 We are asking1 him not to answer .that. We object.

3 COUNSEL SEANDS;

4 I am talking about his money. I didn't say anybody

5 else ’s money; I am asking if he spent Ms money on this lawsuit..

6 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

7 It is the 08me thing, Mr. Chanels. I think maybe if you.

8 are going into this line of questioning we better go down to- the Judge

9 and get a ruling on it. We are objecting to questions which have to

10 do with the financing of the lawsuit on. the ground, it has nothing to

H do with, the issue in this case.

12 COUNSEL SHANDS:

13 Is your objection to whether or not he has spent any of

14 his money on this lawsuit ?

15 COUNSEL MCI LEY:

16 That is right; absolutely.

17 COUNSEL SHANDS;

18 Q, What property have you got, James?

19 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

20 We are going to object to that on the ground it. is not

21 relevant to the issues in this case.

22 COUNSEL STANDS:

23 Q. Will you answer the question?

24 COUNSEL MO 11 LEY:

25 I am instructing him not to answer. t



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18,
R COUNSEL MC"1 LEY-

I 2 We object to that and instruct the witness not to answer.
i 3 CO UNSET, S HANDS; (Continuing)
[ 4 Q. What is your answer to that question?
\ prO A. I won't answer that question.

6 Q. When you first saw this complaint, when was that?

7 A. It was on the day  before it was filed.

8 Q, Where did you sign this?

9 A. You mean-”- In Jackson, Mississippi,

10 Q, Where did you sign it?

11 A, You mean in what spot?

12 Q. Yes, where were you when you signed it? Where were

18 you when you signed ibis ?

14 A. I was In Jackson.

15 Q, Whereabouts In Jackson ?

16 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

17 Doesn't the paper say it was signed before a Notary and give

18 the name ?

19 COUNSEL SJANOS:

20 I want him to tek me where it was signed.

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A2s He said it was signed in Jackson.
9 Q | COUNSEL SHANDY

24 'Whereabouts in Jackson?

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COUNSEL MOTLEY:

He dcs'sn't have to go into that. That is not relevant where j 

what particular spot. The best evidence is what it says on that paper. 

If you want to bring the Notary to see whether he, in fact, signed .it 

before him, I think you can do that.. You can subpoena that Notary to 

find out whether that paper was signed in Jackson,

COUNSEL 8HANDS:

What objection could Counsel or the plaintiff have to tell­

ing where he was in Jackson when he signed it ?

COUNSEL MOTLE Y.

We don't think it is relevant or material. The only rele­

vant thing is what fhM say j^and if you want to prove or disprove that, 

you can subpoena the person who swore that he appeared before him 

or her.

We think at is always relevant to cross examine any party 

to a lawsuit about the signing of his documents and the defendants 

called this plaintiff as an adverse witness in this deposition proceeding 

COUNSEL MOTLEY:

You mean the defendants called the plaintiff,

COUNSEL CHAMPS:

The defendants called this plaintiff as an adverse witness 

and we want to know where in Jackson.' he signed this document, ail 

of which goes to his testimony concerning whether he did in fact sign 

it and where he was in the City of Jackson.



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1 COUNSEL MOTLEY;

2 We are going to instruct him not to answer that question.

3 We don't think it is relevant or material to the issues in this case.

4 Ws think that the best evidence of where lie signed it is what that

5 paper says, that he signed it in Jackson, you. asked him whether he

6 signed it in Jackson, he to stifled he signed it In Jackson. Mow in

7 what particular spot in Jackson is not relevant and we are instruct-

3 ing him not to answer.

9 COUNSEL SHANDS: (Continuing)

10 All of this goes to the veracity, the competence, inteili-

11 gence and the character of this plaintiff.

12 Q. Who was present when you signed it ? Don't look around

13 there, you look at me.

14 A, 1 was present and the two counsels, Mr. Young, Mrs.

15 Motley and the Notary.

18 Q. Was anybody else there, James?

17 A. In the room, no.

18 Q. Yes, in the suite of offices where you were ?

19 A . No

20 Q. Who else was there V
t

21 A . No one.

22 Q. No one e lse . Did you, sign it in a hotel room ? \

23 CO UN’S EL MO T T ,EY ■■

24 We object and we instruct him not to answer those qu.es-

25 lions,



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A. I won't answer that question.

COUNSEL SHANDS:

Q. Did you sign it at the office of the NAACP in Jackson? 

A. No.

Q. Did you sign it at the Notary's house ?

COUNSEL MOTLEY:

We object and we are asking the witness not to answer 

these questions. It doesn't haue anything at all to do with the is­

sues in this lawsuit. You can subpoena the Notary.

.COUNSEL GHANDF;

I think we better suspend at this point and take these 

matters before the Ceurff- 

COUMBEL MOTLEY:

21

COUNSEL SKANDB:

Plaintiff's Counsel. 

OUN£BLb©TLEX

Yes.

COUNSEL SHANDS:

Please let the record show Chat the plaintiff himself 

left the witness stand and went into conference with his attorneys. 

COUNSEL, MOTLEY?

That is agreeable with us; the record can show that.

(There was off* the -record discussion concerning a confer­
ence with Judge Mize, and pending the arrangement for such, the 
deposition proeeoaed). *

W  y e



BY COUNSEL SHANDS (Continuing);

Q. James, this complaint was drawn-- how long have you 

intended to file this complaint anyway ?

A. I didn't understand the question, sir.

Q. How long have you been intending to file this paper '?

A. You mean to try to get in the University of Mississippi? 

Q. Yes.

A. For a number of years.

Q. In order to do that you came to Jackson College,, didn't

you ?

We object to that and we instruct the -witness not to 

answer on the ground that Ml motive in bringing the suit is not ma­

terial or relevant to the Issues in this ca.su.

OPUNSEl SHANDY (Continuing);

Q. The only reason, you came to Jackson College was to 

try to get in Mississippi and lay a basis for trying to get into the 

University of Mississippi, isn't that true ?

A. 1 won’t answer that question on advice of my counsel.

Q, When did you come down here on a visit to Mississippi ; 

in 1960? When did you come down here under those circumstances <

ccnJMm
I don’t think there is any testimony that he came to Mis­

sissippi on a visit. Is there ? You haven't laid any predicate for

that ?



1 COUNSEL SHANDS: (Continuing)

2 I don't have.- to lay predicates on cross-examination.

3 Q. Answer the. question.

4 A. Mississippi is my home. I didn't come for a visit, I

5 came to stay.

6 Q. It is ? You came when to stay ?

7 A, I believe it was the 31st of July, 1960, when I got to Mis-

8 sissippi.

9 Q. When you got tc Mississippi?

10 A. 1 was discharged from the Air Force on the 21st of July,

11 i960, and I believe it took ms ten days to get here.

12
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■ Q. You had been in touch with the KAACF before you came |

13 to Mississippi, had you not?

14 A. No, sir.

15 Q. You had not? You. applied at Jackson College, didn't you?

16 A. Eight, sir.

' 17 . Q. 'Why didn't you apply to the University of Mississippi then ?

18 A. I didn't think it was the appropriate time.

19 Q. You didn't think it was the appropriate time; what do

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■you mean by you "don't think it was the appropriate tim e"?

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22 We are going to object to this line of questioning. This

23 line of questioning is directed to the- plaintiff's motive for bringing

24 the lawsuit. It has no .relevancy to the issues In this case and we in-

25 struct the witness not to answer.

i !



A I won't answer that question

COUNSEL SHANDS (Continuing):

Q, You say it wasn't the appropriate time, you. answered 

that question, and 1 am entitled to go into that. What do you mean 

by the appropriate lim a?

A, I won't answer that question on the advice of my counsel.

Q. Your counsel hasn't told, you not to answer that question.

What do you mean by appropriate time ?

A. What 1 mean by appropriate time. . .

Q. Come on,

A, Is that I believe that that the--

Q. --Is  this going to he a responsive answer ?

A. Well, it might not be.

Q, I want to Know what, you mean by appropriate time ?
|

A. I didn’t think that I knew enough about what I wanted, to do 

to try to do it at that time.

Q. 'What do you want to do ?
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A. I want to go to the University of Mississippi.

Q. What do you warn to go to the University to do ? What 

do you want to do there ?

A, I want to get an education.

Q, An education ? You are getting an education at Jackson 

College, aren't you?

A. It is a substandard education.

Q. Oh, a substandard ? You mean Jackson College is not an

f' o



1 accredited institution ?

2 A. That is what the— |
Q Q* —I am. asking you, as a matter of fact, isn’t-Jackson '
4 College a fully accredited institution? You say it is a substandardL.
R spot.

6 A. I have never seen the accredited rating.

7 Q. I am not asking you that. Jackson College, you said, was

8 a substandard institution, is that right, or did you—

9 A. —I said it was a substandard institution.

10 Q. That is what you. believe ?

11 A. That is what I believe.

12 Q* Now, James, let’ s ‘talk a little bit about your— wnen

13 were you married ? ,

14 A. December 3 5, 1956.

15 Q, Where-were you married?

18 A* In Gary, Indiana.

17 Q. Where were you living then?-

18 A. I was stationed with the United States A ir  Force at ... .

19 Bunker EIll Air Force Base at Peru, Indiana.

20 Q* What was your wife's name?

21 A* Mary June Wiggins; •

22 Q. You were married when?

23 A. December IE, 1958.

24 Q. Who married-you?

25 A. Reverend Evans.

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1 Q, Have you seen him lately?

2
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A. Hot since the marriage. |
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O' Q. What place were you married?

4 A* I don’t remember the church, I am sure it was a Methodist

5 church, in Gary, Indiana. \
6 Q. Where did you get your license ? i

7 A. At the county seat, and 1 believe that is Gross© Point J

8 (Crown Point), Indiana,

9 Q. Where was your mfe living then?

10 A. My wife was working on the base, Bunker Hill Air Force

11 Base, where 1 was stationed.
1 O I X iLt. Q. Her parents live in Gary?

i o5 10 I A. Her grandparents live in Gary.

14 Q, And she was living with them?

15 A, That is right.

16 Q. You lived there part of the time, didn’t you?

17 A. I don't understand your question.

18 Q. When, you got out of the Army la 1960, you lived there with

19 them, didn’t you ?

20 A, I did not.

21 Q. You lived, in Detroit then, is that where you lived?

A- I did not.

23 Q. Did she come to Mississippi with you in July ?

24 A, She came to Mississippi with me, I believe, first, arid then

■OP. «u«, she went home. I believe it was that way. »

_________ 1C



Q. You believo it was that way, don't you know?

A. . I don't'remember exactly. I know we went both places; 

I went a lot of places when. 1 came back from overseas,

Q. Do you have credit cards ?

A. No, sir,

Q„ Do you pay cash for everything?

A. I don't understand that question.

Q, Do 3/ou pay cash for everything you buy?

A, No, sir.

Q* Do you have charge accounts ?

COUNSEL MOTLEY:

We object to tils  line of questioning as to the witness' 

credit card;, whether he pays cash or doesn't pay cash, on the ground 

it is not relevant or material to the issues in this case, and we in­

struct him not to answer.

COUNSEL 3H&NDS:

Q, Where is your wife from ?

A. What do you mean ?

COUNSEL MOTLEY;

We object to that. Where his wise is from has no rele­

vancy to the issue in this case and is not material. • We ins truct the 

witness not to answer.. His wife doesn’t have anything to do with this

lawsuit.

Q. • How many children have you got ?



28
1 A. I have one son sixteen, months old.

2 Q. When was he born?

3 A. January 19, 1960,

4 Q, Were you ever married, before ?

5 A, No,, sir,

6 Q. Was your wife ever married before ?

7 A,. No, sir.

8 Q, What day did you get out. of the Army ?

9 A, 21 July, I960.

10 Q* Whore did you first go when you got out of the Army?

11 A. I went to California to visit my brother. Well, I visited

12 relatives and friends in California, but mainly I visited my brother.

13 Q, When did you leave there ?

14 A. I don’t remember the date.

.15 Q„ .Lot's think: some, James, I want you to remember this

16 very carefully. As you recall, you are testifying under oath and I

17 want to give you time to think. When did you leave there to come

18 back.

18 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

20 We object to that.

2.1 COUNSEL SHANDS:
9 0Uii-J When he left to come back to Mississippi ?

23 i COUNSEL MOTLEY:

24
i

What foes that got to do with the issues in this lawsuit,

25,■i j when he left California ?
• *
i



r 7" 1
i COUNSEL SHANDS: (Continuing) 11
2 That ha,a got art awful lot to do with it. He has already

3
: testified he left to comeback and I want to know when.

' 4 Q. Well, I am sure almost of this thing; I was discharged

5 on 21 July and I arrived in Kosciusko, Mississippi, on 31 July.

6 COUNSEL SHANDS:
y You know, he claims he is qualified to do various things.

8! I want to see what his qualifications are.
Au COUNSEL MOTLEY:

10 We are going to object, to all of this-on the grounds this
1. 1 is harassing the witness, asking him over and over'again where he

12 went, expecting him to remember dates he left a particular town.

13 He can’t remember those things and you know that. He cannot re-

14 member when he left California, “went to Detroit and came back to

15 Mississippi. .

16 COUNSEL SHAKOS (Continuing):

1? ■ Q. When did. you get to Mississippi?

18 A. 1 believe it was the 31st of July, I960. I wouldn't swear

19 to that date; I 'believe it was the date.

20 Q. Did you come in. your Volkswagen or your Cadillac ?

21 i
COUNSEL MOTLEY:

22 Don't answer that question; it doesn't have anything to

23 do with this.

24 COUNSEL SHANDS'

25 Q. Whom aid you stay with when you got there ?

r s



sc
1

------ ------------„-----___ ____ _____—..— ..n.....

COUNSEL MOTLEY:

2 Don't answer that question.

3 A. I won't answer that Question. 
COUNSEL SHANDS;

4 Q. You won’t answer whom you staged with upon your ar~

5 rival at Kbseiusjco, Mississippi, in July, 1960?

6 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

7 On the ground it has nothing to do with the issues in this

8 ease; it is not relevant or material with whom he stayed in Koscius-

9 Iso. It doesn’t have anything to do with whether the University de-

10 nied him admission solely because of his race.

11 COUNSEL S HANDS:

12 We think it has a great deal to do with it.

13 Q. Whom did you work for--

14 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

15 Don’t answer that question.

18 COUNSEL 2HANDS: * Co n4 hm ii*j)

17 —in Gary, Indiana?

18 A. No one.

19 Q. Whom did you work for when you. were in Detroit?

20 A. No one.

21 Q. Have you got a Social Security card?

22 A. 1 believe I have one some place. I know my number.

| 23 Q, What is your number ?

j 24 .A, I wouldn’t swear that I know it.

2.5 Q. You said you knew it.

t 4



1
m * ....  «  i . jii . . — ™ . 1

A. I think I know it.

2 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

3 Mr. Sliarids^you. know he doesn’t know his Social Security

' 4 number.

5 COUNSEL SHAKES: - . j

6 He said h e  did.

7 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

8 If he has a card, ask him to produce it, and don't be

9 asking him to remember numbers., We are objecting to this kind of j

10 examination of a witness, to require him, to remember his Social

11 Security number is unreasonable. If ypn want to know his Social

12 Security number, subpoena his card.

13 COUNSEL SHAKOS: (Continuing}

14 : You must net have heard him say he thought he knew it.

15 Do you hear that ? ■

16 A. It is 425 564091, a believe; I will not swear that is correc

17 Q. Have you. got it with you.?

18 A. I don't think so . I haven't carried it around with me at all.

19
! 1

Q, How did you happen.to get that number, where were you

20 working in order to get it?
[

21 i COUNSEL MOTLEY;

22 1 We object to that and instruct, him not to answer.

23 A. I won't answer that question.

24 COUNSEL SHANDS.

25 Have you ever worked for anybody?
75



X.

1 COUNSEL MOTLEY:
r, We object to that and instruct him not to answer.

*3 A. I won’t answer that question.

4 COUNSEL SHANDS:

5 Q. Have you worked for anybody within the last year ?
6 COUNSEL MOTLEY'

? We object to that arm instruct him not to answer,

8 A. I won’t answer that question.

9 COUNSEL SHANDS:

10 Q. Have you worked for anybody in the last two years ?

11 COUNSEL MOTLEY;

12 We object to that and instruct him not to answer.

13 A. I won't answer that question.

14 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

15 it is not relevant or material to the issues in this case.

16 COUNSEL SHANDS.(Continuing):

17 Q. Have you ever been fired, from any job?

18 A. No,

19 Q. Have you ever had a job?

20 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

21 We instruct him net to answer,

22 COUNSEL SHAKES (Continuing):

23 He said he had never been fired from one, I want to know

24 if he ever had a job .

25 A. I was in the military for nine years.



1 Q. You haven't answered my question. You said you had

2 never been fired from a job. I want to know have you ever worked

3 for anybody ? .

4 A. I won't answer that question on advice of mv counsel.

5 Q. Are you working for the NAACP now 7
6 A. No*
7 ■ Q. Are they paying you any money to bring this lawsuit? 1

8 A. No. |

8 Q. Is that your answer? !j
10 A. No. . \

' 11 Q. ' Are they paying all oi your expenses ? 1

12 COUNSEL MOTLEY: ■

13 We' ask him not to answer that question. You know you

14 have gone over that before. You don't have a right to go over some- \
15 thing you have already asked him and we are waiting for the Judge to !

. .
16 rule on. He has already gonemver that* j

17
j

COUNSEL SHAKOS:

18 1You see. you want me '>o wait to go before the Judge and 1
1

19 j
I am trying to save time to get these additional, questions in so we \

1
20

J
wont have-to break this up so last*

21 COUNSEL MOTLEY: . i

22 It is all on the same, subject, and the same objection holds]

23
• i

to all of these questions that, are asked. The financing of the case is j

24 not relevant to the issues-in this case. To all of this questioning we j

25 have the same objections whether he has it in. writing down there orndt

TT



1 COUNSEL SHANDS (Oontinaina):
oc You may not object to Ibis:

3 Q. Did you furnish the money-- have you been to Atlanta

4 lately ? |I
5 A, No „

6 Q, Within the last year ?
! n A. No.

8 Q. Did you furnish the money to pay the advance travel and

9 per diem and witness fee for Mr, Robert 3 , Ellis to come as a wit-

10 ness you subpoenaed to the Mississippi Calf Coast?

11 A. I didn't understand that question.

12 Q, Did you famish the money, $64.00, out of your pocket to

13 pay the advance witness fee and travel of Mr. Robert B. Ellis?

14 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

15 Lei him loox at that you have in your hand.

16 COUNSEL SHAND3:

1? It is $64.00, I am asking him did he furnish the money.

1.8 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

19 Can we see this you are looking at?

20 COUNSEL SKALDS;

21 Yes.

22 COUNSEL MOTLEY;

23 This is from New York first of all, and this is the money

24 that— I will tell you, if you want to know who sent this. This Mr.

25 Bell right here sent it. It says New York, it doesn't sa,y anything

— ------- ------- — — ----------- -— ........................— ..........— ---- -------— ---------- ----------------------------------------— --------------- ---— ------ — -------- -----------------------------— — — *



35
1 about Atlanta. I think the question is designed to mislead the witness
2 COUNSEL SHANDS;

3 It says the Citizens & Southern National Bank of Atlanta,

4 Georgia. That, is where it is issued, but the money came from New

5 York.

0 CO UNS E11 MO ̂  1 JPjN

7 But this refers to the Western Union money order. This

8 says “Telegraphed from New York1-, that is what I am talking about.

9 COUNSEL STANDS,

10 This thing was issued in Atlanta.

11 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

12 This thing has to do with the Western Union. They

13 have a bank there which issues this because it is near Oxford,

14 Mississippi, but the telegram says “Telegraphed from New York",

15 and that is just a. business transaction that it goes through Atlanta.

16 CO UNS EI.j S H ANUS,;

17 You stated the question. The money, the $64.00, was

18 furnished by-- what are your initials ?

19 COUNSEL >10 T LEY:

20 Mr. Bell.-- Derrick Bell.

21

22 Q, James, you are now enrolled. I believe, at Jackson Col-

oo| t j lege for the summer school, aren't you?

24 A. That is correct, sir.

O K ,
Ci kJ

7 0



8

9

10

11

12

.13

14

15

16

17

18 

IS 

20 

21

22

24

Der i

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A,

Q*

A,

Q,

A,

Where are you living in Jackson?

1129 Mu ole Street.

Do you own that apartment building ?

No, sir.

Do you rent it?

That is rig at, s ir .

Ttie term o: your lease expires when, October or Septem-

De-cennfc': -r 1 boi ie ve.

December, 1961 V 

1 believe.

Q. Do you a..uo to tell me whether or not you were in Ko; 

ciusKo in January of Tus year ?

We object to that, on the ground it is not relevant or ma­

terial to the issuer in this case and we instruct the witness not to 

answer unless you can show its relevancy.

Q. Have you got a copy of your application you made to the 

University of Mississippi V

A. 1 do not.

Q. You remember when you were there to get some recom­

mendations signed, don't you., to attach to your application?

A, I won't answer that question on advice of my counsel.

A- She nasn't advised you not to, James.

A



i COUNgSjQ MOTLEY:

2 That is all right, he car answer that.

3 COUNSEL SHANDS: (Continuina)

4 Don’t anticipate.

5 Q. Are you being a lawyer and a witness to ?

8 A. No, sir, but J thought it was the same question that you

7 asked before,

8 Q. You didn’t understand what I said.

9 A. I certainly didn't: would you repeat that, please ?
10 Q. Were you there in January, 1961 ?

11 A. 1 thought you said something about recommendations ?

12 Q. Yes, I did. Were you there in January? Don’t you re-

13 member whether you were there in January, 1961?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Whom did you see while you were there ?

16

17 Is this “Whom did you see" in general, or are you asking

18 about--

19 COUNSEL SHANDS:

20 I am asking first in general, for his recollection and

21 veracity.

22 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

23 We object to this general business. He doesn't have to

24 testify as to whom he saw.in general, but if you are asking him about

25 the recommendations, we consider that relevant. You can ask him



38.i

1

--------------------------- -— ?-------- -— *— *-------- ...................................................................................................... ....................... .........................

about that and we will instruct him to answer tine questions concerning

2 those recommendations,  but whom he saw in general does not have any
O
0 thing to do with ibis lawsuit.

4 COUNSEL SHANDS:

5 Q. Did yen see your mother?

6 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

7 That doesn't have anything to do with the lawsuit and we

8 instruct him not to answer.

G A. I won’t; answer that question on advice of my counsel.

10 COUN3HII 5 j t a NTsp*

1 1 Q. Did you see your father?

12 CO fTNRET MOrPi \:̂ -r  -

13 We instruct him not to answer that.

14 A. t won’t answer that.

15 PQ UN3 C! .  3 M " r > 3 '

16 Q. Did you see your brother?

17 COUNSEL .MOTLEY:

18 We instruct, him net to answer that,

19 A. I won't answer that question.

20 COUNSEL SHANDS:

21 Q. Did you see anybody that you had ever worked for in

22 Kosciusko ?

23 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

24 We ask. him not to answer that unless that person signed

O KCi O one of those recommendations..

P?



COUNSEL-SHARDS (Continuing):

Q, Did you see anybody named Keaton? I

A. Yes, sir, i

Q. What did you tell him and what did he tell you ?

A. I don't remember what I told him or what he told me. I got 

his signature. He signed it.

Q. You mean, James, to tell this record that you don't remember 

what you said to Keaton ?

A. I know generally.

Q. I asked you what you said to him?

A. I can’t, recall exactly what I might have said to him.

Q. ■ What did he say to you?

A. I can't recall that exactly. I know what I got in writing.

Q. What did you tell him in order to get him to sign this writing?

A. I don't remember.

COUNSEL MOTLEY,:

■ Do you want to show him. the writing so he will know what you 

are talking about?

COUNSEL SHANDS; (Continuing)

He knows what I am. talking about.

Q. You know I am talking about that recommendation that you got 

him to sign, don't you?

A. Yes, I know you are talking about that, but what you mean I 

told him in order to get him to sign it, I don't know.

q . You just don’t remember that at all, is that right ?



T40.
,1 A, Not word for word.
o Q, Give me the substance of it.

3 A. I told him what I planned to do.

4 Q. You told him what ?

0 A.. What 1 planned ,;o do,

6 Q. What did yon plan to do?

7 A, To seek: to enter the University of Mississippi.

8 Q,. You told him that at the time?

9 A. That is rigui'.

10 0, What aid you ask him to do ?
1 1X. x A. I asked him. to give me a good— What date are you talking

12 about-- January ?

13 Q, In January.
14 A. I asked him to give me a recommendation for good moral

15 character,

16 Q. What did he te. > you ?

17 A. He did.

i—* 00 Q. I know, but what did n.e tell you?

19 A. I don't know what he told me.
20 Q„ You don't know what he told you?

21 /\a j dorift x b t u b * I do TsyxiBXxibox* he signed c 3

22 reference.
23 Q, You just don't remember. I am going to leave that ques-

24 tion and I want you to think about that, so before you leave this w l-

25 ness stand, I am going to ask you that question, again, and I want to

0 *



1 see if you can remember. At that time, you remember— Oh, let

2 me ask you this: Have you been connected with the Military in any

3 way since — when— when was your last connection you have had with

4 the Militaify?

5 A. You mean official connection? You mean that I served

8 with the Military ?

7 Q. That is right.

8 A. It was the 21st of July, 1900.

9 Q. Have you had any connection with the Military since then ?

10 A. I picked up my automobile since then.

11 Q. You what ?

12 A. My automobile.

13 Q. You picked up your automobile ?

X4 A. That was shipped from Japan.

15 Q* Have you had any ether connection with it ?

10 A. Not that I recall.

17 Q* Now think about that, because I am coming back to that.

18 Are you in the Reserve ?

19 A. I am not.

20 Q. Have you been on any Military base since July, 1960?

21 A. I am sure that the depot would be considered a Military

22 base,

23 Q* What depot are you talking about?

24 A* In New Orleans.

25 Q.
___

What were you doing there ?

................. — ----—----— —------ rr-f----



i42.
1 A. 1 went, to pick up my automobile,, and yen, I have been on

2 another base

3 Q. What other ?

4 A. Brookley Air Force •Base, in Mobile, Alabama.

5 Q. What were you doing that?

6 A. Visiting a friend.

7 Q. Visiting a friend; who was that friend?

8 COUNSEL MOTLEY;

9 We object to this.

10 COUNSEL SKAIfDS*

11 This is testing his recollection.

12 COUNSEL MOT; BY:

13 No, you can't test Ms recollection by asking him irrele-

14 vant questions. His friend at some Military base has nothing to do

15 with this lawsuit and the issue in it and we object and instruct, aim not

16 to answer these irrelevant questions.

17 A. I won't answer that question.

18

19 Q, Did you get anything or bring anything away with you from

20 either one of those bases?

21 COLjNSELJhLaXLHi
22 We object to that on the ground it is not relevant or mater-

9 Q ial to the issues in this case.

24 A. I won't answer that question.

25

— _[



■ ~ ~ ~ ” - *4
1 COUNSEL SHAND3;

2 Q* What was your position with the Military when you were

a discharged «T\e

4 A* You say "position” ?■

5 Q, Yes.

8 A. You mean rank, I assume ?

7 Q. Yes, whatever it is.

8 A. I was a Staff Sergeant.

9 Q, What did you do as Staff Sergeant ?

10 AJrx * You mean my job ?

11 Q. Vqq'w M  a

12 A. I was a-clerk-typist.

13 Q. Cleric-typist ?
14 A. That is right.

15 Q-- Do you own. a typewriter ?

18 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. Where did you got it ?

18

19 We object to that on the ground it is not relevant and we

20 instruct him not to answer.

21 A. I won't answer that question.

22

23 Q. You won't answer where you got your typewriter ? Is that

24 the typewriter you used to type these recommendations on?

25 f*ir\ T TKTQ tP "r MOTT ,EY‘ We object to that and instruct him not to



44.,

2!

5

6 (

7!

1 r\ iU

11

12

13

14

15 

18

17

18

19

20 

21 

22

23

24

A*

A.

Q,

A.

Q-

Q»

25

answer on the ground it is not relevant,

A . I won't answer that question.

CQ.UE3SEL (Continuing)

Did you type these recommendations ?

Yes, sir.

Where ?

At my home.

On whose typewriter ?

My typewriter.

Where did you got it?

We object to ;hat and instruct him not to answer.

A. i won't answer that question.

Q. Where did you get the paper you typed it on?

We object to that on the ground that it is not relevant.

Q. Where did you get your paper ?

m im h C a E l L :

And' instruct him net to answer,

A. I won't answer.

(At this point Honorable S. C. Mize, IJ, S. District Judge,
!

Southern District of Mississippi, came into the room wherein the 

deposition was being taken).



45
r JUDGE MIZE:

o
ci\ I understand you sent for me ?

3 COUNSEL SHANDS:

4 We ware to come to the Court,

5 JUDGE M1ZB;

6 I thought the .Reporter had machinery set up and it may be
n

j better lor me to come here.

8 COUNSEL SHANDS:

9 We have some several questions and it has previously

10 been agreed that if there were questions and objections made to

11 them and the witness, upon counsel's advice, refused to answer the

12 questions, that we would present them to Your Honor. So Your Honoi

13. is here by virtue of the agreement of the parties, to pass upon these

14 objections. The reporter, I assume, would read the questions?

15 JUDGE MIS E: .

16 Yes, let him read the questions and the objections.

17 COUNSEL SHANDS:

18 Would the Court prefer that counsel for the parties make

19 a preliminary statement to the Court, for the benefit of our views as

20 to why the questions are proper or improper ?

21 JUDGE MIZE:

22 Let me hear the question first.

23 (The reporter off-the-record read from "his notes).

24 One question having been read back to the Court for ad-

25 judication in substance was a question by the Assistant Attorney Gen-



46.

4

5

6

7

8 

9

10

11

12

13

14

15 

18

eral as to whether or not the NAACP was assisting him in financing 

the cost of the litigation in this particular suit, to which counsel for 

the plaintiff raised an objection. Mrs. Motley, do you desire to be 

heard further on that?

COUNSEL MOTLEY:

Yes, Your Honor.

I would line to give Your Honor a Memorandum from 

another case, involving the right of a counsel on a deposition to in­

quire into the financing of a school segregation case. In that Memo­

randum, we cite Supreme Court cases to the effect that the financing 

of litigation is not material or relevant to the issues in the lawsuit.

I would like to present to Your Honor an order issued by 

Judge Bryant Simpson pursuant to that Memorandum, granting our 

Motion to Limit the Scope of the deposition with respect to the financing 

of litigation. Of course, this also concerns motive, Your Honor, and 

the other questions, which we will get to shortly, also involves the

this same case we ob~17 plaxntiff's motive in bringing the lawsuit.

18 jected to questions concerning the motive.

19 there, a Supreme Court case, invc bring b’

20 the Suore me Coui*t ruled, that the plaintiff

21 lawsuit was not relevant or material, if he had a cause of action. Lie

22 Court also ruled that you couldn't go into the financing of the litiga-

23 tion and cited several other cases for that proposition. That may be

24 j .the subject of some other action, but it is our contention that the is-

25 sue here is whether the University denies the plaintiff admission sole!]



47.

2

3

4

5

6

7

8 

9

1 because of Ms race or color, and his motive in bringing the suit is 

not material to that issue, and the method of financing the suit is not 

material to that issue. -We have Supreme Court cases in which these 

two matters have been ruled on and we direct Your Honor's attention 

to those cases and the order of Judge Simpson granting our Motion to 

Limit the Deposition testimony with respect to those two subject mat­

ters.

JUDGE MIZE:

Very well. I can see one matter as to which it might be

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20 

21

22
Oo
O U

24

25

applicable and relevant. Does counsel for the other side desire to 

state anything for the record?

COUNSEL SHAND3:

Your Honor; we think it is perfectly apparent as to what 

our purpose is in this lawsuit. We don't think we need spell it out for 

the Court. He is seeking to bring this suit as a class action; we think 

he is not entitled to that. Furthermore, it goes to his financial ability 

tit goes to his good faith, it goes to his veracity, it goes to whether or 

not this is his lawsuit or somebody else's lawsuit.

■JUDGE MIZE:

Yes. I overrule the objection and will require him to

answer, without stating at this time the point upon which I can very 

easily see that it is relevant. Of course, when it comes down to a

trial on the merits of the case, very probably it would not be relevant-

I am not so sure about that— it depends on what develops throughout

the trial, but there is one question in the case that it would be relevant

91



48,
„i upon. So I am going to overrule your objection and require that ques-

2 tion to be answered.

3 COUNSEL MOTLEY;

4 This is as to trie financing, Your Honor ?

5 JUDGE MIZE;!
6 Yes, as to the financing.

1 n COUNSEL MOTLEY;

8 What about the motive in bringing the suit, because all of

9 the other questions which have been propounded to this witness are

10 all designed to get at his motive-- why are you bringing this sort of

11 thing ? As I say, the Supreme Court has already ruled on that in

12 the Memphis case. The fact that a man took a bus ride in order to

1.3 bring a lawsuit, they said didn't have any relevancy to the issue in

14 the case as long as he had a cause of action. If he could show there

15 was segregation on buses, the fact that he took a bus for the purpose

16 of bringing a lawsuit, didn't nave anything to do with it. That is

17 Evans against Wyatt. They have already ruled on that.

18 COUNSEL SHANDS:

19 I think the record will show that these questions are not

20 addressed, as I felt sure and feel sure that counsel knows— counsel

21 for plaintiff knows-. solely to motive. Here they have alleged dis-

22 crimination. This also goes to a great many subjects, well beyond

23 the one point of motive which I don’t think needs to be spelled out or

24 categorized in this record.
3 D

..... .............'_________ .



1 JUDGE MIZE: !

2 Upon the merits of the case I don't think the motive or
Oo Ms good faith would be material., but upon the question of citizenship,

4 as to whether he is a bona fide citizen of this state, I think it would be

5 competent to inquire into anything that would throw any light on that.

A COUNSEL MOTLEY:

7 We don't object to that. The question whether he is a citi-j
8 zen of the State of Mississippi, we have, no objection to any questions

9 on that. We didn't object to that.

10 JUDGE MIZE:

11 Upon, a trial of the case upon the merits, if he shows him-

12 self to be entitled to bring the lawsuit and shows there has been dis-

13 crimination because of his race, then motive would be immaterial,

14 but as to the question whether he Is a citizen of the state or not, might

15 or might not be a circumstance to consider aong with determining

16 that particular issue.

17 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

18 V p c cm r*a. w vjf $ x  x  #.

19 JUDGE MIZE:

20 On that theory I think rather wide cross-examination of

21 the plaintiff is allowed, but when it comes to the trial on the merits

22 of the case, then you correctly state the law that motive is immaterial.

23 if he shows Ms right to bring the lawsuit and have the relief he seeks.

24 But on the present cross-examination for discovery purposes, as well

25 as for use on the trial of the. case under the rule* it could be u^ed, I



50
1 think a wide cross-examination is permissible, but I am not holding

2 that it is relevant to the ultimate issue to be determined.

3 Do you think that sufficiently answers the questions that

4 have been asked, so that you can go ahead with it, or do you want

5 the specific questions read back and a ruling upon them?

6 If you. comd find one, Mr. Knight, we might see what

7 we have to say about it.

8 COUNSEL SHANDS;

qO There are several, Your Honor, some of which deal with

10 his property, where he got the money, and Counsel should recognize

11 that those are very material, and property owned where.

12 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

13 On the question oi property, he asked did he own real

14 or personal property and we objected, on the ground that is not

15 relevant. There is nothing in the catalogue that says in order to get

16 in the University of Mississippi, he must or must not own property.

17 Our contention is, they are asking him. a lot of questions about wheth-

18 er he owns a typewriter, whether he owns a car, whether he ever

19 worked, where his wife worked, where his wife was born, whether

20 he was living with his wife's grandparents in Indiana, whether he

21 had ever lived in California, when did he leave California— all of

22 these questions have nothing to do with his eligibility for admission

23 to the University of Mississippi. It is our contention that any qu.es-

24 tion that they ask him directed to his eligibility tor admission is

25 relevant and material and we have no objection, but ail of these
i



10

11

12

13

14

15

16 

17

19

20 

21 

22

23

24

25

questions about whether he owned a car. or a typewriter or where his 

wife worked, bis parents worked, is not material or relevant to that, 

and even on a deposition, they cannot ask questions that are not rele­

vant and material and harass the witness about his family, bis wife 

and his parents. They don't have anything to do with this lawsuit, 

and I don't think they have a right to go into those questions. That 

is his personal business. If it has to do with eligibility, we agree, 

but all of these matters about his personal life is undue exposure and 

doesn't have anything to do with this lawsuit.

JUDGE MIZE:

I don't know-- Undue exposure of him, if it should happen 

to be morally degrading, it would have something to do with it. Of 

course, .if he is a citizen of Mississippi and of good reputation, and 

so forth, it would be irrelevant, but in determining whether or not he 

is a citizen of Mississippi, the ownership of property, where he was 

born, where he has been and his background, and so forth, are very 

material on determining a close question as to whether a man is a 

citizen of a certain state or not. Bo on that issue, I would hold that 

this is competent for this hearing and would require those questions 

to be answered.

COUNSEL SHANDS:

May I make an. observation ?

COUNSEL MOTLEY:

I am sorry, Tour Honor, I think probably the best, thing 

to do, since there have been a number of questions, would be to have



1 the Reporter to read each one so you can see whether they are rele-
2 vant to the question of citizenship.

3 (Off “the - record).

4 JUDGE MIZE;

5 As to that question as to his ownership of property, real

6 estate or personal property, where located, where he has kept it,

7 whether or not it is assessed or anything like that, I hold it is com-

8 petent and the ou.est.ion should be answered. It goes to determine

9 the issue of whether or not he is a bona fide citizen of the State of

10 Mississippi.

11 What is the next one.

12 (Oft-the record, reading by the Reporter as to the exe-
13 cution of the Complaint)

14 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

15 We said there is the Notary’s signature if he wanted to

16 question whether this was in fact signed in Jackson. He asked if it

17 was signed in Jackson and he said !!Yes!h It has the Notary’s sig-

18 nature and we said that was the best evidence of where it was signed.

19 If he disputes it was signed in Jackson he should subpoena the Notary.

20 He was going into who was there, how many people were there, and

21 that sort of thing. We say that is not relevant. The only thing he

22 can go into is whether this complaint was signed and. the Notary says

23 it was signed. He asked him the question was it signed in Jackson.

24 Beyond that, we don't think he can go.
25 JUDGE MIZE: le t me hear from you on that, Mr. Shands.



COUNSEL SHAKES:

2

3

4

9

10

11

12

13

14.

15

16

17

18

19

20 

21 

22

23

24

25

That goes to this: I never before heard it urged success­

fully that relevancy and materiality were controlling on a matter of 

a deposition for discovery. It has been my understanding that the 

rule for discovery-- 

JUDGE MIZE:

It must be relevant or probably lead to something that

would be .

COUNSEL SHANES:

Yes, sir; produce some fact that may lead to the dis­

covery of further evidence. As to who was present: Is this his 

complaint, who was there ? One very good reason for answering it 

is apparent on the face of the complaint itself. This complaint as 

originally written contains an allegation as of the time of the filing 

of this company the Registrar had not replied, and then that is 

stricken through and then the initials UJ, H. M. " were put to the side 

of it there. Evidently this complaint was drawn before it was con­

templated it would be filed. All of this goes to this man's character, 

his veracity; it goes to who was there. Whose complaint is this?

Is this his complaint? Was he unduly influenced? Is it his act?

I never heard objections successfully made to all of the facts and c ir ­

cumstances surrounding the execution of a written document upon

which a party relies.

.COUNSEL MOTLEY:

it olease the Court: The witness testified that the



1 complaint, wasdr awnby me and that is, of course , true, as his attor-

2 ney. I don't understand the inference suggested here that maybe the

3 complaint was drawn without his knowledge, and so forth, before it

4 was intended to oe filed. The complaint was drawn before it was

5 filed obviously and was prepared for filing when he received an answer!

6

7

8 

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20 

21 

22

from, the Registrar. That was the reason for striking that line in the 

complaint. When it was typed over there was a typographical error 

and that line was put in there. As the complaint was drawn by me 

he received a letter from the Registrar, which is stated in there, andi 

copying it over that line was put in there. There is some inference it 

was probably drawn without his knowledge or consent, and I wanted 

to explain to the Court the reason for that. That line was put in there 

when it should have been stricken out in the re copying of it. It was 

once drawn and he got that answer and the complaint was changed to 

state he got a letter on the day that he got. it, which was the 26th of

a

May.

COUNSEL SHANDS:

I maxe no insinuations but when I am presented with a

document that contains language that didn't fit the situation at the 

time it was filed, I do not understand— and would oe stricken over-- 

I do not understand why we would not be entitled to develop all of the 

facts surrounding the execution of this com.plaint.

23 JUDGE MIZE:

4̂  j will overrule your objection to that question and require

45 him to answer in order to get the testimony on the record.
t

____

Then



after it is answered, beiore it is used you can move to strike any part 

of it and I will rule upon that at that time.

It is pretty difficult to determine on such short notice the

relevant from the 

all of the things w

irrelevant, and it is not going to hurt him any when 

ill be eliminated that are not competent or relevant

to some matter arising in the lawsuit.

Of course, if there is any specific objection you desire 

to raise this afternoon, pertinent questions, after I leave this room,

I will come up and hear them, but I make this as a suggestion for 

expediting of the taking of the deposition, that unless it is something 

that is so foreign and irrelevant that he ought not to be required to 

answer, that you go ahead and let him answer and then you can move 

to strike any of the irrelevant parts of it.

So on this particular question I will overrule that objec­

tion and direct that he answer.

What is the next one, 'Mr. Knight?

COUNSEL MOTLEY:

I think there were some questions in regard to his friends 

they asked him if he went to some Air Force base, where was that, 

Mr. Meredith?

A. In Mobile,

COUNSEL MOTLEY:

They wanted to know whom he met there, I don't think 

that has anything tc do with the issues of this case.

uq



56
1 JUDGE MIZE:

2 I think that would be competent for him to answer that, if

3 he recalls any of them, because it could very probably or possibly

4 could go to the moral qualifications of whether he would be admitted

5 to the University or not. For instance, if his associates were Com-

6 munists, disreputable criminals, or anything like that, then that

7 would be a matter to consider on what grounds the University denied

8 it. Of course, certainly if it is based solely upon his race, he would

9 be entitled to admission, if he is a citizen of the state, but if there

10 are any other grounds, consistent with regularity, upon which he was

11 denied admission, then that should be shown, and I think these ques-

12 tions along that line could or court not, but that is just an illustration

13 of why I am ruling as I do. Bo on that same theory, unless it is

14 relevant, it will be stricken on motion.

15 COUNSEL CHAMPS:

16 X was asking him about a typewriter, who owned a type-

77 writer and where he got it that was used to write the recommendations

78 that he submitted with his original application.

16 JUDGE MIZE:

20 t think that question should be answered.

21 COUNSEL S HANDS:

22 Also, there has been and there will be questions tracing

23 his movements from point to point for the purpose of discovery. We

24 think that is thoroughly competent, I asked him about wnom he stayed 

26 with in Kosciusko when he got there in July before emolirrumt in



1 Jackson College. There were objections to that,

2 JUDGE MIZE: "

3 I think I have taken care of that in my general ruling.

4 Where he stayed, where he has been, the ownership of property, and

5 so forth, are competent and material probably tc the question of cit-

6 izenship. Anything that will throw light or have a tendency to throw

7 light on whether or not he is a bona fide citizen of the State of Mis-

8 sissippi is competent, because you lawyers know a question of citi-

9 zenship can become a very, very close question as to where a person

10 had his citizenship, and all circumstances that have a tendency to

11 prove or disprove such a question are admissible.

12 COUNSEL MQTLET;

13 I would like to point out one further thing, Your Honor.

14 The University of Mississippi is not limited to citizens of Mississippi.

15 Out-of-state people are permitted to come. If the University were

16 limited to Mississippi citizens, I could see the reason for trying to

17 find out whether he is a citizen of Mississippi and, therefore, if he

18 were not, was disqualified for admission, but the catalogue clearly

19 points out, you can be admitted as a non-citizen. Therefore, they

20 are asking something which is not determinative of his eligibility for

21 admission to the University.

22 JUDGE MIZE:

23 Doesn't he allege he is a citizen of the State of Mississip

24 pi in his complaint ?

25 ..COUNSEL MOTLEY:
And we have no cbfection, as I said before, to his answer-



ing questions as to his citizenship. I think if they ask him if he is 

a citizen and he says "yes” , and where he lives, but they ask when 

his lease expires, "When does your lease expire?" That doesn't 

have anything to do with his citizenship. He testified that he was 

born in Kosciusko, he testified he was in the Army a certain number 

of years, he came back to Jackson in. July, he has been in Jackson 

State College since last June, or whenever it was, but to ask him 

when his lease expires and questions like that, they obviously don't 

go to the question of citizenship. There are a lot of questions like 

that that are clearly irrelevant. We will be here until next week if 

they can search his whole background on a fishing expedition to try 

to find some reason or something for what, I don’t know. That is 

what we are objecting to, this general kind of fishing for information 

as to where he stepped off the plane, who met him, and all of that. 

That is not relevant. I don’t think that Is permitted by the rules. 

JUDGE MIZE:

I disagree with you on it as to the question of cross- 

examination where he alleges he is a citizen ana, of course, his 

moral character must be established as a good mo rax citizen, 1 

think that could havev Of course, his answers may absolutely clari­

fy everything. If he is a man of good moral character, then the 

answers to these questions are not going to nurt him ana I will ex­

clude them for consideration certainly on the merits, upon motion, 

unless they are shewn either on the record or at some future pro­

ceeding in the record, why they would be excluded on motion at the



11 time. So 1 think this is a case wherein a wide cross-examination

2 is allowed and after the answers are in, I will permit you to mot?©

3 to strike am give you. ample opportunity to be heard fully on it.

4 Just as you say, if you object to every question, and so

5 forth, you would be here or Biloxi.one for a week, because I am

6 leaving in the morning and will be in Biloxi, of course, for the next

7 two weeks. However, if you let the examination go on, I will give

8 you full opportunity to make your motion to strike. By what I am

9 saying now, I don't want you to waive a single right and. when you

10 think you want to make an objection, you go ahead and make it and

11 I will hear you on it. But 1 am giving this 'Short dissertation of what..

12 my general thoughts are on the'question of objections at this time.

13 I don't want anybody to waive any right or fail to object when they

14 desire.

15 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

18 • Under the rules I guess it is not necessary for us to make

17 an exception to your ruling?

18 JUDGE MIZE:

19 Nc, I will give you an objection any time you want to ob-

20 ject or I will allow you to move to strike any part of it after it is

21 transcribed, if you desire, even though you are objecting to it at

22 this time, I know the rules do provide ordinarily, unless it is-waived

23 or unless objection has been mad©, that the parties waive them, but

24 now I will give you an objection to any question you want to raise

25 without malting it and you don't waive your right by failing to make it,



and you can move to stride it after it is transcribed.

And I will give counsel on the other side an exception to 

my ruling, if he wants one.

COUNSEL SHANDS:

Let the record show this; There are, of course, other 

grounds and reasons which we have for asking these questions be­

sides morals, and we think if we now would be required-- we would, 

like, in view of the general ruling the Court has given the plaintiff— 

we wouldn't like to be restricted. In other words, we could state our 

basis and reasons—

JUDGE MIZE:

~~Gb, yss -- 

COUNSEL SHANDS:

For asking these questions, without each time putting 

them in the record, because then your cross-examination is destroyec. 

JUDGE MIZE:

What I meant to say was, that after it is transcribed, 

Counsel for the plaintiff may move to strike it and I will have a hear­

ing on those things, and if you can point out where it is relevant or 

competent, or with a reasonable degree of accuracy where it will 

be in the future by things you expect to show, I will let you do it.

I will give both sides full opportunity to present this lawsuit. ■

So I believe now I will retire.

COUNSEL SHA.ND3:

I don't like to ask Counsel this question, but in view of



1
1 the statement the Court has made and the indication that the Court

2 will leave Meridian "in the morning--

3 JUDGE MIZE:

4 x&s, I Will be here at the office until 4f30 this afternoon.

5 COUNSEL SHANDS (To Counsel Motley h •

6 Kcu don’t have to answer this question unless you want to: Do

7 you plan to make any direct examination of this witness ? Do you know

8 whether you do or not ?

9 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

10 No, 1 don’t believe we will.

11 COUNSEL SHANDS:

12 If you do, .then I would want the same kind of ruling to be

13 given to me as has been given to you as counsel for plaintiff, about

14 our objections.

15 JUDGE MIZE:

16 Yes: I will give, you that and I will not require counsel to

17 answer your question and be bound by her answer because if anything

18 developed in the cross-examination that caused her to think she ought

19 to take him cn direct examination, she may do so, and I w ill give you

20 an objection to every question asked that is answered.

21 COUNSEL SHANDS:
22 Thank you. That includes responsiveness and that sort of

23 thing. I think the witness understands what responsiveness is now.

24 JUDGE MIZE: If you have any more problems to come up, I will be

25 right dotvn the hall. (Judge Mize leaves the room)



COUNSEL SHANDS. (Continuing)

Q. James, .back to your statement that you didn't think 

that last July, I960, was the appropriate time to file this suit to 

try to get in Ole Miss or to try. to get in Ole Miss, who told you 

it wasn't appropriate ?

A, 1 made that decision myself.

Q, Did you talk to anybody about it?

A . No.

Q* No one. All right, tell me why you didn't think that 

was the appropriate time.

A, I stated before that I didn't--

Q. —Just tell me why you. didn't think that was the appro- 

; priate time ?

A. Because I didn't know enough about what I wanted to do,

Q, Yon. didn't know what?

A. Enough about what I wanted to do.

Q, Did you talk with anybody about that ?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you talk with Medgar Evers about it?

A. No, sir. You are talking about July?

Q. Yes.

A . No, s ir .

Q. Now then, let's come on up: You considered filing 

this lawsuit or trying to make an application last September, did

you not?



83

1 A. You mean September, 1980?

2 Q. Yes, and you talked to some people about it, didn't you

3 A. I possibly-have. I tell you I have talked to people about

4 this in general for a long time,

5 Q. I am asking you if last—

6 A. “““I don't recall speaking with any one in particular

7 last September.

8 Q. Yon talked to Medgar Evers about it then, didn't, you?

9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. Whom with the NAACP in Jackson was it you did talk

11 with? I want you to think on this answer before you answer it.

12 A. You say September ?

13 Q. Of 1950.

14 A. I960?

15 Q. I want to give you the benefit of the opportunity, 1 am

16 not pushing you.

17 A. I don’t remember the date but I did join the NAACP,

18 I believe it was sometime in September, and at some date later

19 than that in my discussion with Mr. Evers, and I had many--

20 Q. —You had many ?

21 A. . At that time— I said "many", I should say a few, more

22 than two and wa did briefly, very briefly, discuss the University '

23 • of Mississippi at that time, at which time I told—

24 Q. —You said “discuss you mean your making- applica-

25 tion to try to get in ?



64

1 A, Yes; he asked me if 1 was interested and I told him no.

2 Q. What is it that changed-- what is it and when was it that

3 you changed your views and you acceded to his request?

4 A. I did not accede to his request; in fact. I deliberately

5 and intentionally didn't tell him I had made this decision until after
a  I 0 I had written the school.
7 Q. Until after what?

8 A. Until after January 251a, whenever it was that I wrote

9 my first letter to the school. I did not discuss the matter with Mm

10 any further from that time.

11 Q. Right before Christmas, in the NAACP office, you had.

12 conversations about this, did you not, with Medgar Evers, and who

13 was the other ?

14 A. No, sir. Just before Christmas ?
I

15 Q. Yes. |
i

16
!

A. No, sir.

17 . Q, Well, in November or December ?

18 A ,  No, sir.

19 Q. That is not so ?

20 A. That is not so.

21 Q When did vou. decide this was appropriate c

22
j

A . When ?

23 Q. Yeso

24 A. In January, 1981.

25 q . At that time vcu had been very active in thê  NAACP »



56

1

2

8

4

5

6

?

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20 

21 

22

23

24

25

A.

Q,

A.
r\

A.

Q,

I agree with most of the tenets upon which they are

No, sir.

That is not so ?

That is not "so.

You believe in the NAACP. don't you?

I believe they are fighting for and trying-- 

--Just tell me whether you believe in what they stand

for.

A.

founded.

Q, You have been a member of the youth organization of 

the NAACP, haven't you, at Jackson College ? • •

A. I have never been a membe A OX fciti.0!. youth organization. 

Q. Whon did you join me MIAS ?

A. The MIAS ? •

Q. You know what that is, don't you?

A. I believe it is—

■ Q. When did yo u j oin ?

A. What do you mean when did 1 join ? I didn't join.

Q, You didn't join? Y o u  have been going to their meetings, 

haven't you ?

A. I imagine that all of the students have been. 

q . 1 didn't ask you about the other students, I asked,you if 

you haven’t been going?

COUNSEL MOTLEY;

Would yen enlighten us as to what MIAS is so we can



5
68

1 follow the examination ?

2 Q. Tell them, James, what it is.

3 A. 1 believe it stands for Mississippi Improvement Asso~

4 ciati.cn of Students. I believe every student at Jackson College

5 knows what that is.

5 Q. You. believe every student of Jackson College is a mem-

7 ber ?

8 A. I don't know anything about membership; I have seen

9 posters posted around all over the campus.

10 Q, You have been to their meetings ?

11 A. I don't know if they have had any meetings.

12 Q. Walt now, I want you to consider this answer, James.

13 My question directly and clearly is, haven’t you attended meetings

14 of the MIAS ? The answer is either- yes or no.

15 A. No.

16 Q. That, is not so?

17 A. That is not so.

18 Q« You have worked with their Board, haven't you?

19 COUNSEL MOTLEY;
9 A 
tU'J What is the answer ?

21 A . No.

22 COUNSEL SHANDS (Continuing):

90 u 0 He says "no". He says he has not attended any meet-

24 ings.

25 q . Haven't you worked with their Board, which issues

..  ■



6!f' ................... .. '..........  ■l" - j
I so me pamphlets, with the group that is writing pamphlets?

2 A, Have I worked with them ?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I thought so. Bo you want to reconsider your answer

6
I

that you have not attended meetings ?

A. You said Board meetings.

8 %  Meetings of-the MIAS?

9 A» Y es. I have.attended meetings of the MIAS..

10 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

11 Of course we object to all of this.

12 COUNSEL SEANDS:

IS You have a running objection.

14 COUNSEL MOTLEY: ■

15 We object to ail of this business about what he belongs

16
.

to, the meetings he has attended, anything in that range we object

17
■

to, but I just don’t want to prolong the--

18 COUNSEL SEANDS: (Continuing)

19 I know that..

20 (Upon request the Reporter read, the last answer).

21 Q. Furthermore» do you believe in what they stand for?

22 A. I don’t know if I know' for sure ^what they stand for.

23 Q. just tell me whether you do or don't believe in what

24 they stand fo r?

25

L—

A, What I know about them, i do.

M a i



6

1 Q.. Yo ; do t

2 A. m i s i .  s , w is not B , concrete orqam.zatio.vi; J

S don't Know if It any ccest.ro!.. ! muddr'i Krc-w where ail of ire

4 material comes .
c; ny x-Ju ooat me to iw neat question, tot:. + e..u me who does

6 Know mere w.m : ... meo ; v- \ iV
ry
i A. 1 ,r ::m at. ,

8 q. i saw going m ask you uat, yovmjouit kv ow r

S A , I do: not mem

1C

n

W „ imj yon 2’ot.v̂  a,.n.y im-iOr'..nu {

12 do 1 ■ in a oroad question, James. -had rather you wouh

IS t-lirii:-: 8,DC UX 1 ~  D6 IU C ’-:« V J U a..' WfciT -.

14 w ; m. a::■' ■ 1 dorm understanu. toe question.

IE Q. Lx: voa eaet mforms s where the material comes from.

18 that the MIAS mas in their g w  iced ms. :n iheir-- you. might say—

17 advoc.my of their prircA '.sc I

18 m m- nmo. i j. mwe any Kiiowjedge whatsoever?

19

20

^ * •• c •*

21 q jr  rj yr v; o i o.. Now tell me want your information is

22 and wnom you got. it from..
oq y;0yy t vva,_ v,;?q;n 30:.ie jumps that printed toms infer-

24 mat ion.
OP-Ci u Q'- ‘..-a.. W‘JJ mJo.....' W U L -m ./ i ,

\ v r...

JC
Q



m
1

2 

3

8

7

8 

9

10

11

12

13

14

15 | 

18

17

18

19

20 

21 

22

23

24

25

■ A, Yes, that was distributed.

Q* Where did you all get your basic material condensed-*

you know what condensed means ?

A. No, sir.

Q. Yen don't know what "condensed51 means?

A* Not in the sense you .might use it,

. Q. What is your understanding- of "condensed ?

A. To put together. ■

. Q. To put together. That is not right; I will put it another 

way: Who took the information and boiled it down and put the sub­

stance of the information into the pamphlets, the thoughts, the 

Ideas, that is what I am getting at ?

A, I don't know,

Q. What is your information as. to where that material 

comes from ?

A. You mean the paper ?

■ Q. Yes; the material that you all get in?

A. I don't understand, when you say “material1*, you - 

mean what is printed on the page ?

Q. The pamphlets, where do you. get the pamphlets and 

the— what do you call that-- background material?

A. All I know about was purchased by the students.

Q„ Who is on the MIAS Board, do you know?

A. 1 don't know if they have a Board as such*. . ,

Q. You spoke a moment ago in response to one of.my ques-

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - * ± 3 —



70

1 lions which you -<..:r A pa;: cm , tad m .e: with, the Boars

£~.J no do you. Oncw ' eh i 5 on the Board of the MIAS?

O A. I lid ;C o \ oao mot with the Board.

4 Q, I say you Odd to t han met with them, and tell me

5 who is or: the Board f

6 A. , Io

7 Q, Ido yn VO my A/ur.mv.ti. t

8 A. Ill do not.

9 A oils cist rm o r t mio down io Kosciusiso in July;

10 You left from slur Y aoo ;,c coom Ktso.lus.bo? You. left from

11 your wiled; ;o too. : :. irdt you V

12 A , .ok r I v  gem to impression that 1 came to j£os-

13 oiusno bo fore going "■ IT;v wife A dome.. J wouldn’t vouch:, on that;

14 1 wouldn’t ewear to 7 iSLC .

15 Q- 7ou aro >'00.; wife Jived, with tier mother and. father?

18 A. 1 dcrot under :. utoa worn you mean ".lived.'1.

17 Q,. You da ye bee ,ur:.g io your--- tu said in your tom-

18 plaint trial y jwee0!: t i V • i red t cine where; don’t you mow w.nat I

19 mean when i say who "''A: ut lived?

20 A. Ate only - 0. to I have lived, since 1 have been cut of the

21 service das been in 1dim

22 Q. 0)1:,, it ,

23 A, a aAS, LIT'

24 ty. . ,oo.c see a bwb th A You got out of the service what

25 bici-Lrv f

-i



71

1 'A . July 21st..

2 Q. Where did you. go first then ?

3 A. First, I wsiit to Edwards Air Fores Base, in California.

4 . Q. Where did you go from there ?

5 A. I went to El Centro, California. . ■

6 ©. ©id you leave those bases with anything you didn't have

7 when you went there ?

8 A. I don't know what you, mean?

9
1

€|. ' Did you acquire anything there, did you get anything

10 there ?

11 •A. In the line of what?

12 Q. Jn the line of anything ?

13 A. . You mean did I buy anything.from the PX or steal any-

14 thing ?
15 "Q. . You just don't understand that question, do you?

16 jVi 4
A. No, sir; I don't understand that question.

17 q. . All right; we will take it another way.

18 . A. You left that last, Air Force Base, then where did you go
19 A. As far as I recall, I came straight to Kosciusko.

20 %  Where did you leave your wife when you were going to

21 the different bases ?

22 A. • My wife was-with-me.

23 , Q. She was with you all of that'time ?

24 A. That is right.

25 %  When you got to Kosciusko where did.you stay ?



2
72

1 A. With my parents.

2 Q . ‘ Where do they Jive ?
Qo A* 351 East Allen Street, I believe.

4 Q. 351 East Allen Street ?

5 A. Yes, East South Street, you know the mail doesn't run

6 down that street.

7 Q. How long have they lived there ?

8 A. I don’t know the exact date but I am fairly certain that

D they moved there the last of July or the first of August, 1960.

10 0 . Where did they live before that time ? j
i

11
f

A. Route 2, Box 16. Kosciusko. !
12 Q. Did you ever work for anybody in Kosciusko ?

13 A. I can't recall anybody.

14 Q. You know whether you worked for anybody in Kosciuskc

15 A. I used to caddy for a Golf Club,

10 Q. When was that? You were just a kid?

17 . A. That is right.

18 Q. Have you. worked for anybody else in Kosciusko ?

19 A. I don't recall ever working for anyone else in Kosciuskc

20 Q. ' Don't you know whether you did or didn't work for any-

21 one else ?

22 A. I don’t recall. i

23 Q. All right, you want to stand on "you don't recall" ?

24 When did your mother and father leave Route 2 ?

25 A. When they moved where they are presently,.



73

1 Q- Where they are presently?

2 A. That is right.

3 Q. What business is your father in?

4 A, lie was a farmer.

5 Q. He was a farmer, isn't he farming now?

6 A. No, he is not.

7 Q. What is be doing to make a living ?

8 A. He is over 65 and he draws Social Security, I am sure.

9 Q* Tell me when the last time was that you were in Kosci-

10 usko before July, 1960?

11 A. It was prior to my going overseas in 1957; I don't re-

12 member the exact date.

13 Q* You don't remember exactly. Let's go back to 1957:

14 When were you last in Kosciusko prior to 1957?

15 A » I have been to Kosciusko off and on continuously througl

16 out my service; I don't remember the exact dates, but numerous

17 times.

18 Q. Do you remember whether you were there in--

19 A. I have been there almost every year more than once ex-

20 cept the time that I spent overseas.

21 Q~ Except once--

22 A. --Except the 3 years I spent overseas; otherwise, so fan

23 as I call . I was there often.

24 Q. Often? Whom did you stay with in 1957 when you were

25 there ?



74

1 A. My parents.

Q. ■ That is when they lived on Route 2 ?
Q A. That is correct.

4 Q. Did you. pay for your mother's and father's new house
eO which they built ?
6w A. What do you mean "did I pay for itn ?

7 That is just the question I asked; did you pay for it,

8 did you he Lp with it ?

9 A. I don't understand that question.

10 Q. Did you give them any money to help pay the cost of

11 that house ? '

12 A. I bought my father's old home.

13 (a) * You bought your father's old home, when did you buy it

14 A* The early part of I960.

15 Q. , What ?

16 A. The early part of 1960.

17 . Q. Have you got a deed to it ?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q* Is it recorded?

20 A. Yes, sir. j
21 Q. Who drew that deed for you?

22 A . 1 don't know. You mean the lawyer ?

23 /—v.v&jj«, Yes. I

24 A. t was in Japan, I was stationed overseas at the time, j

25 My father handled all of the business. (

h r



1

A.

Q.

That is my understanding.

Did he convey complete title to you ?

Q. What did you pay for it ?

A. I believe the price— I wouldn’t quote the price; I

5 would have to check the deed.

e Q* Roughly, what is your best judgment ?

7 A, $3,000 or $4,000, I don't recall; I believe it was one

8 of those figures.

9 Q. Did you pay it in cash ?

10 A. Most of it.

11 Q. Did you have a bank account then ?

12 A. 1 did.

13 Q. Where was it?

14 A. Kosciusko.

15 Q. What bank?

18 A. I believe it was Attala. I wouldn't quote that, but I

17 believe it was the Attala National Bank.

18 Q. You wrote a check on that bank account for that money ?

19 A. I either did or I had my parents to; they have always

20 ■ had that privilege.

21 Q. Drawing on your money?

22 A. Yes.

23

24

6JU

Q. What were you making a month in the Army?

A. My base pay naturally changed, but my latest base pay 

was $220.00 a month.
i

■

T I C



1 Q. "What was it at the time you bought the house ?

2 A. It was either $220.00 or $210. 00.

3 Q Did anybody give you any of that money?

4 A. No.

5 Q. it was all money that you saved out of your pay?

6 A
J :x  • It is money that we saved out of our pay. 1 was mar-

7 r*ied to my wife since December, 1958.

8 Q' Ana she was working where ?

9 A. On the base where I was stationed.

10 Q* In Japan ?

11 A. Both places.

12 Q . Both in Japan and--

13 A. --In the States.

14 Q. Now, back to this typewriter, where did you get that

15 typewriter ?

18 A c. I purchased that typewriter when I was stationed in

17 Omaha, Nebraska. I wouldn't remember the exact date, 1 am not

18 sure of the place.

19 Q» Would, you mind telling me what, your wife was making

20 during that period of time ?

21 A. Well, I will give you her rating: She was a GS 2 and 3,

22 whatever that salary is.

23 Q* With the government ?

24 A. That is right.

25 * What did che do ?

I



r-..... ..................-..... : ' 77

I
|

A. She was a stenographer and cleric,
2 ,

Q* Back to this proposition, have you. paid any lawyer fees

I 3
to any of the lawyers who are representing you?

4 A. I have not,
K Q. Have you promised to pay them?

8 A, I have not.

7 Q* Who is financing and putting up the money for the carry-

8 ing on of this lawsuit ?

9 A. To the best, of my understanding, the NAAGP Legal Aid

10 and Defense Fund, I wouldn't say that is the exact quoted title,

11 but the Legal Defense Fund.

1 9 Q, Did they tell you if you filed this lawsuit they would

13 agree to finance it?

14 A, No, sir.

15 Q. When did they promise to finance it and spend all of

16 the money ?

17 A, I don't remember the exact date; it was after my re-

18 quest that they consider.

19 Q. I believe you said Medgar Evers was the one who told |
on you to request it ? j

21 A. No, sir, he did. not tell me to request it.
S

oo<U<£s Q. Who was it told you, James? .!|
ooC-tO A, I had. knowledge myself of the legal aid; I have knowl-

24 edge of Mr. Marshall and his operations- have had.

25 Q. As to the signing of this complaint, who was present



A » Myself, the two counsels and a. Notary Public-- Notary.

Q, 

A .

What do you. call them ? 

Notary.

Q.

A.

What is the whole name ?

Well, Notary Public, I assume. I never paid that much

attention.

Q* What place were you all when you signed it ?

A » Mv counsel carried me to got it signed and I believe it

was the NeMary's home,

r

A.

In the Notary's home. How do you spell Notary Public? 

N -o-t-a -r-y  is Notary. I don't'know how to spell the

other, I d(vu't. know exactly what the title is. I think it is p -u -b -l-i-

Q.

A.

R -e -p -u -b -l-i-c?

I think it is just simply p -u -b -l-i-c . ■

Q. Back to the letters of recommendation, you say you

wrote them on your typewriter ?

A.

Q.

That is right, sir.

Where did you get the paper that they were written on?

A. My personal paper.

Q. Your personal paper, where did you get it?

A. Bought it.

Q.
A.

Q .

You bought it, tell me where you bought it?

I don't knows

Let’s think a minute . Hud you had that paper an awful



______ ______ _______________________ ;________  79
1 -'r r  111 ;"'1 "„HH r-tn UTfir-i unmi imrn 1 -iiiiiii rriiuiiiniiiiriiriirjjii.'.

long time ?

A. • Some of it, the carbon paper, I bad some of it, |
j

O, I am talking about the white sheets now; have you had
t

that paper a good while ? j

A, Some of it,

Q, And where did you. get it?

A, I am fairly sure I brought some of it with me from the 1
Imilitary when I came out of the service. j

Q. Did the military give you paper to use for your per­

sona,! benefit? Does the government do that**- let a clerk-typist 

take paper that the government has paid for and use it for their 

own purpose ?

A. Well. I don’t .know. Are you saying that I stole the 

paper ?
I

Q. I am net saying anything. James, I am asking you facts 

A. I have never known any serious objection to military 

clerks taking a few sheets of paper to type a letter or something.

Q. But you had had that for several years ?

A., No, sir, not several years.

Q. What base did you get it from ?

A. I imagine everything I got came from Tachikawa 

Air Force Bane,

Q. You have still got some of it left ?

A. No, sir.

Q. You used up the last bit of it when you wrote your sec-



80
L0

1 end group of recommendations, didn't you?

2 A. I don't recall which paper I used.

3 Q. Dio. I ask you where you got. that typewriter ? 1 believe

4 you said you bought, it ?

5 A. That is correct.

8 Q. Do you still have it ?

7 A. That is correct.

c3 The serial number off of it would not be difficult to get,

8 would it ?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. Would you equip yourself with the serial number ?

12 A. I will.

13 Q. Do you recall where you bought it?

14 A, In Omaha, Nebraska.

15 Q. What kind of machine is it ?

16 A. Smith-Corona is the name of it.

17 ,Q, Portable?

18 A. Portable.

19 Q, Do you. remember where you bought it?

20 » i wouidn*c say*

21 Q, Did you buy it new or secondhand?

22 A. New. 1 believe it was the— I don't know— 1 know I

23 bought it while I was stationed in Omaha, Nebraska, 1 am sure of

24 that.

25 Q. Do I understand you correctly when you state the NAACF



f.. 8 1

1 has told you they would finance this lawsuit for you?

2 A. ' The Legal Defense, which Mrs,. Motley represents,

8 has,

4 Q. They have promised you they would finance the case

5 for you?

6 A, Thai is correct.

? Q, James, I warn to talk about these letters that you got

8 signed up there, it has been some little while since 1 asked you

9 about what it was you told Keaton when you were up there on Jan-

10 unary 29, 1960. Did you. tell him what your plans were them- to

11 try to enter Ole Miss ?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q, That is your first trip to him?

14 A, Would you repeat that question, please.

15 Q. When you went to see Keaton, what did you tell him

16 as to why you wanted this certificate ? What did you tell him you

17 wanted that certificate for ? !1
18 A. I told him. that I was considering gaining admission,

19 trying to gain, admission to the University of Mississippi, and I

20 needed a moral and character rating from responsible citizens

21 and asked him to give me one.

22 Q. How long had it been since you had seen Keaton before

23 that? . ’ .

24 A, I wouldn't quote a time but I see him most of the times

25 when I go to Kosciusko.. s

mmm



1 Q. But you hadn't been there since 1957 ?

2 A. I had been there many times since '57; I came back

8 from overseas in 1960.

4 Q, All rigiit . you saw him in 60?

R A. Yes,, sir.

8 Q* How long aid you stay in Kosciusko from the time you

r?t got there until you went down to Jackson College ?

8 A. I stayed in Kosciusko until just before school started.

9 Q. How many months or days roughly ?

10 A. I wouldn't know. After I completed my visiting around

11 the country. I imagine it was about a month, maybe longer.

12 Q. At that time did you discuss with Keaton at the appro-

18 priate time you were going to seek to get in Ole Miss ?

14 A. I don't recall but it is possible.

15 Q- It is possible. Think on that just a minute because

16 again I want to give you an opportunity to think.

17 A. I would say no.

18 Q. But in January, right before you made your application

19 you sent it off on the 31st, J believe ?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. And when you were there two days before, you did tell

22 him that yo u wanted to get in Ole Miss and you needed a character

c s n£iO reference-*~ certificate ?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. Then you saw 3, L. Brown?

.* r\ f ■ 

____ i—



8

1 A. That is correct.

pCi Q. What did you tell him?

3 A o Same thing.

4. Q. So the record will be straight, what did you tell him?

5

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20 

21 

22

23

24

A, I told him I was planning to attempt to gain entrance 

into the University of Mississippi.

Q, And what ?

A. And I am fairly positive I told him some of the reasons

why.

Q. How long had it been before that, before July of 1960, 

was it that you had seen S. L. Brown?

A, Again, I don't recall the exact date, but he has been 

one of the old men I respected most and I made a point to see him 

most of the times when I go to Kosciusko.

Q, Had you seen him within one year?

A, I would say fairly certain 1 have seen him since I was 

discharged from the service. I wouldn’t recall the time,

Q. You were discharged from the service in July—

A. ■--July, i960.

Q. By the way, what does Keaton do ?

A. He is a Funeral Home Director.

Q, What does S. L. Brown do?

A. He is a retired minister.

Q. Of what, faith ?

PRCi >u A. Baotist.



84

1 Q. Was anybody present besides you and Keaton when he

2 signed this certificate in January of *61 ?

3 A, No one.

4 Q, What about when Brown-- what about Brown?

5 A. I believe his wife was present, I know she was at home.

6 1 don't know if she actually witnessed the signing, I believe she did

7 that too. I know she was at home.

8 Q. Was it night or day when you were there ?

9 A. I am fairly sure it was day.

10 Q. Let's go to -- Is it Laney Meredith? He is no relation

11 to you, is he ?

12 A. He is a distant cousin.

13 Q. Distant cousin, just how far off?

14 A. I don't really know? but I believe it must be a second or

15 third.

16 Q. What does he do ?

17 A. Right now, I don't know. I believe then he was working

18 for the railroad, but I am not positive.

19 Q. How long before January 29, 1961, had you seen Laney

20 Meredith ?

21 A. I see him most every time I go to Kosciusko.

22 Q. .L et 's  take Milton L. Burt, what does he do ?

23 A. He is a plumber and a service station -worker.

24 Q. What did you tell him when you asked him to sign it ?

25 A. I told him I was planning to try to gain admission to the 

_______________ ________ _______ __________ ________ —- — ——--------- —4-kL-—
■



85

1 University of Mississippi and I needed a moral and character

2 rating or reference and I asked him to give me one.
fio Q. What did he say to you, if anything ?

4 A. This is Burt ?

5 Q. Ye s .

6 A. I don't recall anything outstanding that he said.

7 Q. Did he sign it without any argument or comment or did

8 you have to argue with him?

9 A. He signed it on Ms own initiative,

10 Q . On his own initiative ?

11 A. At my request.

12 Q. At your request. Did he ask you any questions in con-

13 nection with it ?

14 A. Yes, they all asked me some questions.

15 Q . What did they ask you, James ?

16 A. Most wanted to know why or when, and so forth.

17 Q. Was anybody present besides you and him when he

18 signed it ?

19 A. No.

20 Q. H. C. Newell. Did you tell him why you wanted it?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. What did he say to you ?

23 A * I don’t recall particularly but I recall he did sign it.

24 Q- I want you to think about that a moment, James, and

25 see if you want to amplify your answer.



. ... .............................. ........... 8 6

1 A. I do not.

2 \c j  9 You are certain that your answer is correct ?

3 A. Which answer ?

4 Q . The answer you just gave me.

5 A . I said he signed, it.

6 Q . Then I ashed you if he said anything to you ?

7 A. That I recall.
C':
O Q. What did he say to you?

0 ,V A . I don't recall what he said.

10 0 . That is the question I asked you if you wanted to ampli-

11 fy.

12 A. No, sir, I do not.

13 A't How long had it been before January 29, 1961, that

14 you had seen him before he signed this ?

15 A. Most likely the last time I was in Kosciusko because I

16 see him most every time I am in Kosciusko.

17 ■ Q. When you say the last time , when was the last time

18 you were there before then?

19 A. I don't remember the date but I am fairly certain I

20 must hav
I

e gone there sometime during the Christmas vacation.

21 Q* Did you tell him. why you wanted it ?  I
|

£ t£ i A.
l

Yes, I told them all.

23 Q . Was anybody present besides you and him when he j
24 signed it ?

25 A. No,  s ir . *



1

6
A.

tj

6
7

8

O£?

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18 

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Q* By the way, where did you sign it, where were you

87

and he'?

A. Where were we?

Q, Yes,

A. At his garage*

Q. At his garage ?

A. Or the station which is a combined affair. 

Q. Tell rae where you and Burt were.

A . At nearly the same place.

Q, Come closer instead of leaving me nearly.

A. What you mean ?

Q. Where were you?

A. I drove into the station.

Q, Were you driving your Cadillac or your Volkswagen? 

A. I don't particularly recall but 1 imagine it was the

Volkswagen.

Q. Nobody else was present?

A. That 1 particularly recall.

Q. Where were you and Laney Meredith when you signed it ?

A. 1 know I went to his home looking for him. 1 don't be­

lieve he was at home and I believe I found him in the barber shop.

q . James, I am going to ask you to reflect just a minute 

on what yon have testified here, as to what you. told them about 

this certificate, and. then I am going to ask you if .you want to 

change your answer in any way.



■j——  - ......  .... . 881
1 A. Did you ask a question? I thought you were getting ready
2 to say something.

3 Q* I asked you to reflect upon the answers you have given

4 me as to what you told these people who signed that certificate of

5 good moral character for you on January 29, 1961. I wanted to give

6 you an opportunity to reflect on that, to see if you. want to change

7 your statement about that.

8 A. Wo, I do not want to change it; I told them all the purpose

9 Q. That is what you say the facts are ?

10 A, That is right.

11 Q. By the way, what does Newell do ?

12 A. Newell, he is a garage owner and operator. I am fairly

13 sure he owns it, I never asked him, but I believe he does.

14 Q, What garage is that, James?

15 A. 1 assume it must have his name; I donst remember ever

16 seeing a name on the garage.

17 Q. James, just tell me why you wrote the certificates in-

18 stead of asking them to write you a certificate of good moral char-

19 acter.

20 A. I wanted to save them the trouble; I knew they probably

21 didn't have a typewriter and the convenience and I did.

22 Q. That is very thoughtful. Do you remember when you

23 went up there in March of 1961 ?

24 A. I don't particularly remember, but if---

25 Q. I don't mean M arch--yes, March 26, 1961.

— -------------■—■—~ - --------- :-------:----------------- :-------- ----------
JL w



89

1 A. I don’t particularly remember going on that date, but

2 I probably did.

3 Q. In your first certificate as to your good moral character,

4 you made no mention in the certificate of any recommendation on

5 their part you should be admitted to the University of Mississippi,

6 did you?

7 A. Thai is correct,

8 Q, You went back to see them on March 26, 1981, and you

9 took them a new batch of recommendations, did you not?

10 A. That is correct; if it was that date. I did get them to

11 sign other—

12 Q. That is the date ?

IS COUNSEL MOT LET;

14 |
Yes, I think that is the date. |

15 BY COUNSEL SEANDS (Continuing):

C
D

r~* Q, Who told you -chose certificates were not what they ought

17 to be? Who told you the first certificates were not what they ought

18 to be ?

19 A. I knew that. There were some items we left out and I

20 indicated that in my first letter to the Registrar.

21 Q. You said "we11 left out, who else, who is the other part

22 1 of that ?

23 A. I always refer to myself as “we" generally in.my speed

24 I have been told about that several times.
9Rv Q. Who toid you. to say "we" ?

_ .......... ...... . . - _ ..... - . - ----
J i ,  m/



2

ou

0

7

11

12 

1 q

14

15

If

17

18

24

— — — ----- --------------------- ------------------------ --------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ..._____________________

A, No one, I say I have been told that I always say that as

a figure of speech, when I am speaking of myself I say "we", rather 

than I. I meant I.

Q. Let me suggest where you got that. You got that from 

writing pieces for newspapers and for pamphlets, didn't you, be­

cause that is the language that a columnist always uses, isn't that 

where you got it ?

A. I don't have any experience in writing columns for 

newspapers.

Q. But you have had experience in writing pamphlets ?

A. I don't have what I would consider experience in writing 

pamphlets.

Q. You and we, you say, left that out of your first certifi­

cate, and then when you went back to see them, what did you tell 

them ?

A. I told them that---

Q. --Did you tell them, that you made a mis cue ?

A. No; I didn't make a miscue.

Q. What did you tell them ?

A. I told them that I needed that other portion— maybe we 

should clear up one thing. I contacted my counsel immediately 

after I applied at the University of Mississippi. I attempted to go 

in February. I thought I should and I was in contact with my coun­

sel from then on.

Q. Oh, did your counsel suggest the addition of the recom*



3D
91

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6

?

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20 

21 

22

23

24

25

mendation to the University of Mississippi

Yes,

Q. James, I believe you sort of anticipate where I am 

going. Who wrote these letters for you that you wrote up to the 

University of Mississippi? Did you write them?

A. I wrote every letter and typed it, except one.

Q. Which one was that?

A. That was the one to the Dean of the College of Liberal

Arts. I didn't draft it mvself. I si it.

it?

Q. That is when you threw "race or color" into it, wasn't

A. I did that in my first letter to the school.

Q. I didn't say that, I say that is when you threw "race

or color" in the letter you wrote addressed to Dean Lewis?

A. I may have.

COUNSEL MOTLEY:

He answered it, he said he put "race and color" in 

his first letter.

COUNSEL SKANPS: (Continuing)

I was asKing him about the second.

A. I tried to make that quite clear in my first letter be­

cause I don't think, didn't think, and still don't think these pre­

liminaries are necessary. I feel I am a negro, everyone knows 

that, and negroes have not been going to white schools in M issis­

sippi, everyone knows that, and I didn't feel it was necessary to



i.
i

3

4

5

6

7

8 

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20 

21 

22

23

24

25

not tell him. So I told him in my first letter,

Q* Let's get back to that letter. You first drafted that

letter-- when you first drafted that letter, did you send that letter

to your counsel ?

A, No, sir.

Q. When you first drafted it, you didn't have that race or

color in it, did you?

A.. i did,

Q, Are you certain of that? I want you to reflect on that. 

A. I am positive.

Q. You drew a conclusion in that letter, you concluded, 

didn't you ?

A . Co n c lu.de d what ?

Q, You have a copy of that letter, haven't you?

A. 1 have a copy of all of the letters between myself and 

the Registrar.

Q. You drafted that-- was any change made in that letter 

by your counsel ?

A. My counsel didn't know about that letter.

Q, I thought that was the one you meant when you said 

you wrote them all except one.

COIINdNL MCTLEY :

I think you are still talking about the first one.

A. I thought you were talking about the first letter.



03

1 COUNSEL SEANDS: (Continuing >

: 2 I am talking about the first one to Dean Lewis.

3 A, I didn’t fftlte but one to Dean Lewis.

4 %  Then who wrote that ?
5 A.- It was drafted by my counsel.

6 Q. Now, let's get back to your second certificate: What

7 did you say to Brown when you went back with your second certifi-

8 cate- S. L. Brown?

9 A. 1 told him that the first one didn't include the re com-

10 i mendation to the school, which he already knew, and that I needed

11 that.

12 Q. I thought you told him that you wanted that in order' to

13 make, your application to the University of Mississippi ?

14 A. . That is right.

15 Q. You wanted a recommendation, is that right ?

18 A. .You are talking about the second letter?

17 Q. 1 am talking about the first time* you told him you were

18 • going to the University and you needed a recommendation to go to

19 '
I

the University, isn't that right ?

120 | 1 ;
A. Yes, in the first letter. No, I didn't tell him I needed

'2i i a recommendation-- I needed a moral.

<22 :>
t j Q. Am oral. Then when you went back the second time,

I p

J23»f is,that when you told him you needed a recommendation?
1

-24
J

A- .That is correct.

S25 Q. Who told you you needed that recommendation?

137



94

1 A * I don’t -  you mean that this was necessary?

2 Q . Yes.

3 A . My counsel.

4 Q* You had been studying up— you had a 1980 bulletin,

K didn't you'r

8 A, Yes. I had a I960 bulletin.

7 Q. You were familiar with that, weren't you?

8 A, . Quite familiar.

9 Q. You were quite familiar with it ?

10 A. Generally familiar.

11 Q. You were familiar enough to write that letter referring

12 to page so and so says this and page so and so says that ?

IS A. I didn't draft that letter.

14 Q* 1 thought you said you only drafted one, who drafted

15 this other one ?

18 A. I did.

17 . Q- Wait now; you just said you didn't draft that one.

18 A. You are talking about the--

19 Q. --The letter that refers to the catalogue ?

20 A- You were speaking of the letter to the Dean; I didn't

21 write but one letter to the Dean.

22 Q. 1 am talking about the letter in which you referred to

23 page so and so of the catalogue and another page so and so of the

24 | catalogue; did you write that letter .

25 ! COUNSEL MOTLEY: I would like to follow the examination, but
Ij

“ „ - - - - i



95

1 1 don't know what letter you are referring to. The record will be

2 very confused.

3 COUNSEL 3HANDS: —-

4 March 26th; you have it right there.

5 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

6 I think it would help in reading the record if you will

7 give the date.

8 COUNSEL SHANDS; (Continuiner)

9 March 26th.

10 A . I have it.

11 . Q. Did you write that letter ?

12 ' A. Yes, 1 wrote the letter.

13 Q. After studying the catalogue ?

14 A. -And on advice of my counsel.

15 Q. And on advice of year counsel. You composed the

16 letter, is that correct?

17 A. That is right.

18 Q. From your acquaintance with the catalogue ?

19 A. I had received a letter from the counsel indicating

20 these things, regarding the pages, and so forth.

21 Q, Have you got a copy of that ?

22 A. I don't know if I have one. Counsel might have one.

23 Q. You reminded me of something else: How long were

24 you a clerk typist ?

25 A. All of my time in the service.



Q, Were you told, the importance of keeping copies of 

documents ?

A. Yon. mean in the service ?

Q, Yes

A. Yes, X know.

Q. That was pretty well drilled into you, wasn’t it, 

James., as it is every service man in your position?

A, Yes, it is good business.

Q. James, let me see that jacket you, have got right there 

that you have to keep those papers in, that thing right there,— 

that jacket.

A. Oh, this here 7
Q. Yes; where did you get that ?

A. I wouldn't particularly recall. These were used by

the Army years ago; they don’t use them any more. 

Q. How long ago were they?

• A. That they used them ?

Q. Yes,

A. 1 don't know; I. was never in the Army.

Q. Do you say on this record that they do not now use 

them. ?

A. Solar as I know they don’t. The Air Force didn't useihirn

Q. i am not asking you that; you said they are not used.

A, The Air Force doesn't use them any more, sir.

w.* What ?



97

1 A. The Air Force hasn't used them for several years.

2 Q. The Army, Interdepartmental Service, do they use

3 them now?

4 A. T don’t know.

5 Q. -Where did you get it ?
6 A. I don't particularly recall but I imagine I got it some- |

7 where during my time in the service.

8 Q. Did you buy it from the government ? ■

9 A. I might have. They have a local purchase store; I

10 have bought many items, I don't--v |
11 Q. --A re those for sale ?
12 A. I don't,know.

13 Q. Army equipment for sale ?

14 A, I don't know. 1 don't know where I got it exactly.

15 COUNSEL SHANDS:

16 Would Counsel have any objection to my seeing it ?

17 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

18 Yes. I think what you are trying to do is get some-

19 thing on this man by implying that he has stolen it from the govern-

20 merit--

21 COUNSEL SHANDS:

22 -.-I am not implying any such--

23 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

24 —And I think that is not proper examination. You are

25 new fishing and trying to get this man implicated in some kind of



08
1

1
crime. I think that is very serious.

1 2 COUNSEL- SPENDS:

3 I merely asked him where he got it.
i

4
COUNSEL MOTLEY:

K You are trying to entrap this man and trying to show |
j

8 that he stole goods. You have asked him several times about this

7 kind of things, and we object to that.

8 A. I have never stolen anything in my life.

9 COUNSEL MOTLEY* 1
1

1C I? you have evidence he stole somethincr—

11 COUNSEL SKALDS:

12 —I didn't say he did: I asked him where he got it.

13 I didn't say he did; you used the word.

14 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

15 If you have any evidence he has stolen anything, the

16 Uruted States Attorney is p2*obably right downstairs and you can

17 give it to him.

18 COUNSEL SEAIJDS: (Contirumg) - | 
1 (

19 The witness exhibited that. j

20
I

0* Dc you know where vou got that ? S

21 A. I don't know exactly.- j
|

22 Q. Did you buy it ? i

23 A. I don’t know.

24 Q. Is that a, matter or item of issue' by the Air Force ?

25

*---  ,

A. It is not. It is a matter of issue by the Army. I might' j

142



99

have found it some place, I don’t reca ll.

Q. You just don’t know where you got it?

A , I just don’t. I don't know how long I have had it; I know 

I have had it for  a long time.

Q. How long?

A . I don’t know,

Q. What is  the fo rm ? You pulled that out yourself. What is 

the A rm y seria l number on that, the form  num ber?

A. You mean on this here?

Q. Y es.

A . It doesn 't have one.

Q. Look at the bottom left-hand corn er.

A , There is  not one on there.

Q. Is there one under the flap?

A . No. It is  just an old A rm y serv ice  jacket. It has Arm y 

Regulation 345 15.

COUNSEL MOTLEY:

Do you want to state for the record  what relevance all of this 

has, whether this jacket has a serial num ber?

COUNSEL SHANDS:

I am asking him. He pulled that out.

COUNSEL MOTLEY:

I want to know the relevance of all of this. A ll o f this is going 

into the record  and we are going to object to all of this. The

Judge said you were to spell out what relevancy, if any, these



100

1 questions have. I want to know what relevance this has to this

2 man's admission to the University, the serial number on that.

3 COUNSEL S HANDS:'’ '{Continuing)

4 I think there is no occasion for stating anything into

5 the record.

6 . Q. Now, James, we get back to the proposition of copies.

7 We covered Brown as to what you. told him at the time you got this

8 second letter from him on March 26, 1961. Now we go to March

9 26, 1881, L. L. Keaton, what did you say to Keaton when you

10 asked him ?

11 A. I don’t remember exactly what I said to him, but it

12 was in the line that I needed not only a moral and character refer-

13 ence, but also a recommendation that I be admitted to the Uni-

14 versity.

15 Q, Milton Burt, on March 26th ?

18 A. Basically, the same thing; I don’t recall the words.

17 ■Q. Henry Newell?

18 A. Same.

19 Q. Same thing, and Laney Meredith?

20 A. Same.

21 Q, You first went into, the service, I believe, on July 28,

22 1951?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q, Where were you living then?

25 A. . Well, I don’t know. I wouldn't say I was living any

l__ _______________________________________________ 1M



3.

10

1 place in particular, I just finished high school. I came to M s-

2 sissippi, stayed a while, and I had gone to Detroit and was staying

3 with my sisters and brothers a few days,

4 Q. You were staying with your sister and brother?

5 A, Sisters and brothers.

6 Q. You then went into the service; where did you go into

7 the service from ?

a A. From Detroit.

9 Q. Where were you discharged ?

10 A. Omaha, Nebraska.

ii. Q. Omaha, Nebraska, on July 27, 1955, is that correct?

12 ■ A. The 27th, that, is correct.

13 Q, And you went bad: into the service October 5, 1955?

14 A. That is correct.

16 Q. Where were you between July 27, 1955, and October

18 5, 1955?

17 • A. I was in Mississippi and in Detroit part of the time.

18 I enrolled in Wayne University, 2 believe, for three weeks.

19 Q, In Wayne University ?

20 A. It is in Detroit, Michigan.

21 Q. You enrolled in Wayne University immediately after

22 you got cut--

23 A. --In September—

24 Q. --In September of ‘55?

25 A. That is correct. t

145



102

1 Q . Did you coma to Mississippi between the 27th of July,
1 o& ■ 1955, and October 5, 1955?

8 A. Yes, I dido _ '

4 Q. Who came with you ?

5 A- I don’t recall.

8 Q- Do you know where you stayed then?

7 A. Yes, I always stayed-with my parents. Generally, I

8 come by ray-self, I realty don't ever remember bringing anybody

9 with me to Kosciusko. I picked up Gl's coming this way, and things

10 like that, but to bring somebody else 1 don’t recall.

11 Q . Did you work anywhere between July 27, 1955, and

12 October 5, 1955?

13 A. I don't recall, I don't believe I did.

14 Q , Where did you live while you were at Wayne ?

15 A. I was staying with my sister.

10 Q. With your sister ?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. While you were attending .Wayne ?

19 A. That is right.

20 Q. That is in what city ?

21 A. De tro it, Michigan.

22 Q. Did you serve all of your time from July 28, 1951,

23 through July 27, 1955, in the United States?

24 A. Would you repeat that question, please ?

25 Q . From July 28, 1951, which was when you first went



103

in the service--

e ow- *a, ^  «w  mb

Q. —Trhough July 27, 1.955, when you completed your 

first enlistment ?

A. Was I stationed in the States?

Q. "2 e s »

A. That is correct,

Q. Where ?

A. My basic training was in New York. I went to Clerk 

Typist school in New Mexico Western College.

Q. While you were in New York, where did you stay ?

A. I was in basic training at Sampson Air Force Base.

Q. 'Where did you go, where did you stay, when you left

the base in New York?

A. They put us cn the troop train and we went to Hew 

Mexico*

Q« And you. stayed in the base down there ?

A. No, it was a college and we lived in the dormitories. 

Q, And the name of that college ?

A. New Mexico Western College. The military had 

leased it, I don't know, they were under contract. You are prob­

ably familiar with that.. They train clerk typists for the Air Force 

Q. Was that civilian training or was that military training 

A. They had military there but the teachers were civilian. 

Q. We have got from October 5, 1955, to July 21, 1980;

147



104—

1 how much of that time did you spend overseas ?

2 A. 1 think it was just a few days less than three years.

3 Q, What was -that ?

4 A. A few days. 1 went over there I believe it was August

5 2nd of *57 and came back on the 20th of July, 1960,

8 Q. From .November of '§8 until May of *60, you were at

7 Tachikawa Air Base ?

8 A. Yes.

9 . Q, Did you work for anybody anywhere between July 21,

10 I960, and the time you entered Jackson College ?

11 A. .1 don't recall. 1 would almost say that I didn't.

12 Q. Tell ms, James, how large a place is Kosciusko?

13 A. Kosciusko ?

14 Q. - About how big a place.is it?

15 A. I believe the last X saw it was 6,000.

10 Q, How many people were there, roughly, this is an es-

17 Umate— about what size town was it in January, I960?

18 A. 6,000. •

19 . Q. . .Has it grown much in the last few years ?

20 A. . X believe the census showed that Kosciusko didn't grow

21 much,.

22 . Q. You haw been around there, was it about the same size

23 back in,- well from 1940 on up to about now, or about the same, or

24 do-you know?

25

..

■

A. Wall, I have- checked population figures, and I don't be-

, ........................................

i ME



105

1

2

lieve it was quite as large in 1940, but I believe for the past sev­

eral years, it has been about the same size,

Q. When you were in Kosciusko on your trips backwards 

and forwards, what did you do while you were there— anything 

in particular ?

A. I Would say no— the same thing a GI generally does 

when he is on leave. I wasn't married most of the time.

8 Q. Yo u did what ? !I
9 A, I V,rasn t married and i came on leave, you know, you I

\
10 have a vacation 11 »■ |

11 Q. wi
1

„en did you open your account at the Attala Bank?

12 Al At- «S-
\ |

1 Wouldn't recall particularly. I have had accounts f 1 * |
13 just about cti.il Cf the time that I have been in the service at one

14 bank or anothc r in Kosciusko.

15 Q. Do you have bank accounts now ?

16 A. Yes.

1? Q* . Where do you carry those ?

18 4 A*A A ■■■■Guaranty, Jackson. „ !

19 Q. Where ?

20 A. Depo s it G uaranty.

21 Q. Have you received any money from the NAACP since

22 you started talking with them about this lawsuit ?

23 A, 1 have not.

24 | W X Icove you received any money from any member of the

25 ! NAACP in Mississippi ? t
!I

149



106r — '
ii

A « I have not,

2 Q. What about the Jackson Chapter of the NAACP ? .

3 A. I have not,

4 Q. . Or from any Chapter of the NAACP in Mississippi ?

5 A, I have not received money from anyone.

8 Q. Have you gotten a promise from any of them?

? A. I have not.

8 Q. To pay you money ?

9 A. , I have not.

10 Q. Eave you gotten any money from any organization,

11 MIAS, or any organization in connection with this suit ?

12 A. I have not.

13 Q. 'What .is the source of your income now ?

14 A. I am on the GI Bill of Rights.

15 -And that is all the money you have *?

10 A. What do you mean "that is all the money I have " ?

17 Q. AH of the money you get each month?

18 A. Yes, basically, Ihave three farms at Kosciusko. -

19 Q. . Eave what?

20 A. Three farms.

21 Q» You have three farms at Kosciusko ?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. How big are those farms ?

24 A, 40 acres, 15 and 84,

25 ■ Q. When did you get those ?

1 5 0



107

1 A. '54, ‘56 and *60.

2 Q. !54, '60 and what?

3 A. !56.

4 ■ Q. Who operates those farms ?

5 A. Two, no one-- two there is nothing.

0 Q. Anything planted on them?

7 A. No,. The other one is share crop.
.

8 Q. When did you buy those farms, whom did you get them

9 from ?

10 A. You want me to name the people that owned them be-

11 fore ?

12 Q. Yes. and how you got them, did you buy them o r --

13 A. —I bought them.--

14 Q. —Were they given to you. From whom?

15 A, Alberta Estns and heirs one; Mary and Robert Carr,

16 the other,

17 Q. Have you been paying taxes on those ?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. Who is your tenant up there on your share crop farm?

20 A. I don’t know his name at this time.

21 Q. You don't mean you have a tenant and don’t know his

22 name ?

23 A. My father, he has told me Ms name, but I forget

24 names very easily— My father is taking care of my business while

25
t.

I am in school.



108

1 ' Q, I believe you named three farms ?

2 A. That is right.

3 Q. Whom did you get the other from ?

4 A. My father.

5 Q. Do you mind telling me what you paid for each one of

6 them?

7 A. X won't quote exactly, J, can quote only one exactly.

8 I believe one was $300.00, maybe four, but I believe it was three.

9 Q. What is that ?
10 A. I say one was $300. 00, maybe four, but I favor three.

11 The other one was a thousand, I am sure of that. The other one,

12 as I stated earlier, was either $3,000 or $4, 000.

13 Q. You paid cash for those ?

14 A, I paid cash for the first one.

15 Q. Which is the first one, and what is the acreage there?

16 A. 40 acres.

17 Q. How much did you pay for the 40 acres.

18 A. $300 or $400; 1 believe $300.00. I would have to check

19 the deed.

20 Q* The next one ?

21 A. $1, 000. 00 =

22 Q» The acreage in that ?

23 A. 15.

24 ■ Q* And the other one ?

25 A. 84 acres.

152



1 Q. 84 acres, and you paid what for that?

2 A. $3,000.00 or $4,000.00..

3 Q. You paid cash for those ?

4 A. Only for the first one.

5 Q. For the first one, that acreage was what?

6 A. 40..

7 Q. How did you acquire the others ?

8 A . The second on time and the third on time.

9 Q. Did you borrow the money to pay for them?

10 A. No, 1 did not.

11 Q. The owners let you. pay them?

12 - A. That, is right.

13 Q, Have you paid for all of them ?

14 A. I have.

15 Q. Did you pay for them by cash?

16 A. You mean cash, you don't mean cash on the line; yes, ;
17 cash.. i

18
i

Q. Did. you issue checks or did you pay cash?

19 A. Well, I was in the service and— it was cash. I don't

20 remember, 1 wasn't on the spot. Most likely I sent a check to the

21 Carrs. That was *56, I don't particularly recall. I do recall I

22 paid them $50.00 a month. I don't know even how much 1 paid

23 down; it was $400 or $500 or something, and the balance was in

24 $50.00 a month payments, and T paid that.. I would imagine it. was

25 by check. s



1

2

S

4

5

8

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

18

1?

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Q* James, when you refer to your counsel, do you. mean 

the counsel who are now appearing for you in this courtroom ?

A. Yes, I mean particularly Mrs. Motley.

Q« What ?

A. Mrs, Motley.

Q. At any time from July, i960, to the present time, 

have you had any other lawyers advising you?

A , In this case ? No.

Q. .Either in this case or in any matter related to this?

A. No.

Q. James, have you ever been convicted of any misde­

meanor in any court ?

A. No.

Q, City court or J.P . court anywhere at any time ?

A . No.

Q. City court ?

A. No.

Q. Any military offense ?

A. Have I been convicted on any military offense ?

Q, Yes,

A. The only thing was a speeding ticket which was con­

tended. In other words, I appealed.

Q. While you. were at Wayne University, does your answer 

apply to that, while you were at Wayne ?

A, That is correct.

154



1

--- ----------— — — , _ -------  - '■

Q, Does it apply to the time you were in Tachikawa?
2 A. ' It applies to all times. Are you talking about do I

3
?

have a criminal record, a record-—

4 Q. -~I didn't ask you if you bad a criminal record. I
! Kw asked you if you had ever been convicted of any criminal offense,

6 misdemeanor ?

7 A. No; except the traffic violation, as I stated.

8 Q. How long were you at Wayne ?

9 A. From, the time school began, 1 don't remember the

10 exact date, in September until October 4th, I believe I reenlisted

11 into the Air Force on October 5th.

12
ft-

Q. Were you ever charged by courts martial ?

A T inI X 0

14 Q, Were you ever punished under Article 15 in the military

15 A . No.

16 Q. Why did you leave Wayne?

17 A. To reenlist in the Air Force,

18 Q- How old were you when you left Kosciusko and went

19 to Florida?

20 A, I left in the summer of 1950 and I was either just turn-

21 ed 1? or 1 was still 18, almost 17. I am fairly sure it was after

22 my birthday; I believe I had, just turned 17.

23 Q. Was some of your family living down there ?

: 24i * A, That is right, my father's brother.

25
1
f

Q. Why did you go down there ?
t

135



112

1 A. I wanted to go to a better school.

2 COUNSEL SHAN.DS:

3 We have no further questions at this time.

4 I don't know what your practice is on depositions, but

5 it has been my practice that at the present time we have asked him

6 all of the questions that we wish to ask, and leave an open proposi-

7 tion without completely discharging him, subject to such proper

8 further examination--  such further examination that may be proper—

9 whatever that is.

10 COUNSEL MOTLEY:

11 Well, I don't know about that. I have never had that ex-

12 perience before,

13 I don't have any questions.

14
(Thereupon, at 4:30 o'clock P. M ., on June 8, 1961,

15
the foregoing deposition was concluded).

16

17 - - - - - -

18

19 I have read my testimony set forth on the foregoing

20 pages and the same is correct.

21 This the day of June, 1961.

22

23 (James Howard Meredith).

24

25

150



113

REPORT E R S  CERTIFICATE,

State ol Mississippi 

County of Hinds

I, E, A. Knight, Official Reporter, State Oil k Gas 

Board, Jackson, Mississippi, certify that to the best of my skill 

and abilitjr I reported in shorthand the proceedings and testimony- 

in connection with the deposition of JAMES HOWARD MEREDITH, 

plaintiff,, taken by the Dclemiaats at the time ana place and in 

the matter stated, and trie foregoing pages contain a full, true 

and correct transcript of my said shorthand notes then and there 

taken.

This to© 10th day of June , 1961.

3 Hielal Reporter, State Oil & Gas 
B ?ard, Box 171.1, Jackson, Mississippi



CERTIFIC ATE O F O FFICER BE FO RE 
.WHOM DEPOSITION IS TAKEN.

u n ite d  St a t e s  d is t r ic t  c o u r t
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI

I> ESTHER CARTER, Deputy Cleric, United States District

Court, Southern District of Mississippi, certify that the foregoing 

deposition of the plaintiff, James Howard Meredith, was taken before 

me, beginning at 11 o'clock, A. M ., June 8, 1961, and concluded at 

4:30 o'clock, P. M ., on the same date, in Room 308-A, Post Office 

Building, Meridian, Mississippi, in accordance with stipulations and 

statements of Counsel above shown;

That the said witness was by me first duly sworn, and under

my direction, the proceedings were reported in shorthand by E. A. 

Knight, Official Reporter, State Oil & Gas Board, Jackson, Mississippi;

That the foregoing transcript of said proceedings and testi­

mony was submitted to the witness who signed the statement above 

appearing that he had read his testimony set forth on the foregoing pages 

and that the same is correct.

Witness my hand and seal of office, this the 15 j j t  day of

June, 1961.

___ .___ ____—
Deputy Clerk, United States District 
Court, Southern District of Mississippi.