Brewer v. School Board of the City of Norfolk, Virginia Appendix of Appellees
Public Court Documents
May 29, 1967

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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Brewer v. School Board of the City of Norfolk, Virginia Appendix of Appellees, 1967. 00da3963-b69a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/76193e3b-a10e-4773-ab1f-c702423c8718/brewer-v-school-board-of-the-city-of-norfolk-virginia-appendix-of-appellees. Accessed July 11, 2025.
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APPENDIX OF APPELLEES United States Court of Appeals FOR THE FOURTH CIRCUIT No. 11,782 CARLOTTA M OZELLE BREW ER, et a l „ Appellants, v. T H E SCHOOL BOARD OF T H E CITY OF NORFOLK, V IRG IN IA , et a l „ Appellees. Appeal from the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, Norfolk Division Leonard H. Davis City Attorney 908 City Hall Norfolk, Virginia 23501 Counsel for Appellees TABLE OF CONTENTS Page Order Granting Motion of United States of America to Intervene, filed February 23, 1966.............................................................. 1 Response of the United States to the Proposed Order of the De fendants, filed M'ay 29, 1967 .................................................... 1 Excerpts from Transcript of Trial Proceedings on April 17, 1967 2 Witnesses: Walter W. Brewster ...................-....................................... 2 Edwin L. Lamberth ................... ...... ................... ............. 14- Colloquy between the Court and Counsel for School Board .... 51 Witnesses: John C. McLaulin ................................... 56 Vincent J. Thomas .............................................................. 65 Allen H. Wetter .................................. -.............................. 85 Excerpts from Transcript of Hearing on May 26, 1967 .............. 103 Summary of Inventory of Public School System, dated October 12, 1966—School Board Exhibit No. 1 .............................. ..... 122 Excerpts from the First Report of The School Board of the City of Norfolk for the 1966-67 School Year—School Board Exhibit No. 5 ............................................................... ..... .... - 124 Letter of Counsel for School Board to Judge of District Court dated July 22, 1966 ............................ ................................. 124 Resolution of The School Board of the City of Norfolk, adopted July 19, 1966 ..... .............. ........ ...... .......... -........ - 127 Remarks of Vincent J. Thomas, Chairman of The School Board, on Television to all Teachers and other Professional Personnel, March 23, 1966 ............................................-.... 131 Remarks of Superintendent of Schools E. L. Lamberth to all Teachers via Educational Television, March 23, 1966 133 Map of Planning Areas and Planning Districts, City of Norfolk, Virginia—School Board Exhibit No. 4 .............................. ..... 137 Order Granting Motion of United States of America to Intervene, Filed February 23, 1966 The United States having moved this Court to intervene as plaintiff in this action pursuant to 42 U.S.C. 2000h-2 and upon no parties entering objections thereto, it is Ordered that the motion of the United States to inter vene as plaintiff in this action is hereby granted. United States District Judge Norfolk, Virginia F e b r u a r y 1966. Counsel for Plaintiff-Intervenor Counsel for Defendants Response of the United States to the Proposed Order of the Defendants, Filed May 29,1967 The United States of America, Plaintiff-Intervenor, in response to the proposed order submitted to the Court on May 26, 1967, by the defendants, including the defendant School Board of the City of Norfolk, states: 1. The United States approves of the form of the order as being responsive to and in accordance with the directions of this Court set forth in its memorandum opinion of May 12, 1967. 2. The United States will file no objection to the de fendants implementing and proceeding under the plan of desegregation attached to said order for the 1967-68 school year. App. 2 Respectfully submitted, St. J ohn Barrett, Attorney Department of Justice Leonard E. R yan, Attorney Department of Justice W illiam T. Mason, J r. Assistant United States Attorney Excerpts from Transcript of Trial Proceedings on April 17, 1967 [tr. pp . 69-84] Walter W. Brewster the witness on the stand at the recess, resumed the stand and testified further as follows: T he Court: Mr. Ryan or Mr. Mason, would you gentle men have any questions that you would like to ask this witness ? Mr. Ry a n : If I may, Your Honor, just a few ques tions. T he Court : All right. cross-examination By Mr. Ryan : Q Mr. Brewster, in March of 1966, you held your present position; is that correct ? A Yes. Q And did y°u, in March of 1966, and in the months prior to that, take part yourself in discussions and confer App. 3 ences that led to the adoption of the plan of the School Board for desegregation of the schools ? A Yes, I believe I did. Q Well, let me narrow the question a little bit. Were you consulted and did you take part in some of the dis cussion relative to teachers and faculties and staff ? A Yes, that would be after this court hearing was called—yes—in February, after, yes. Q I am referring to the time— A I am trying to get the time sequence. You said in March. Q Well, my point of reference was the date that the plan was entered by the Court. That was my point of ref ence then. A That was in March. Q And prior thereto— A Yes. Q —my question is, did you, in your capacity—■ A Yes, Mr. Ryan. Q —take part in the discussions that led to this ? A I did. Q Since that time, Mr. Brewster, have you and, to your knowledge, have others in the school system followed the procedures outlined in this plan for desegregation of the Norfolk schools? A Yes. Q And did you do so with respect to hiring and re cruiting and assigning of faculty during the current school year, that is, the school year 1966-1967? App. 4 A Yes. Q So would it be fair to say, then that you had a cer tain measure of responsibility for implementing this plan with respect to those provisions that relate to teachers and professional personnel ? A Yes. Q In following the procedures that are outlined in the plan for desegregation of the Norfolk schools, did you find—was it your experience that the various provisions with respect to teachers and other professional personnel— that they operated satisfactorily in practice ? A Yes, within the limitations of—as I mentioned be fore, of dealing with— Q Yes, I understand that. A —individuals, yes. Q And in following these procedures, a certain amount of desegregation of the teachers and other professional personnel occurred; is that correct ? A Yes, sir. Q Has this desegregation of the faculty occurred in a manner that is consistent with maintaining the standards of the Norfolk school system? A Yes, within the limitations of the people available to us. Q By that, you’re referring to the members of your faculty and staff ? A The people who present themselves for employment. Q And when you speak of those limitations, you’re speaking of limitations with respect to their qualifications ? A Competition, their qualifications, et cetera. App. 5 Q Has your implementation of these provisions re lating to teachers produced good educational results ? A I hope so. Q Well, has it been your experience as Director of Personnel that it has produced good educational results to the extent that you, as Director of Personnel— A I can answer— Q —would know that ? A —to the extent that I know directly in any other case. One year of experience is not a great deal upon which to measure any person teaching children. It takes some time to actually see the results, but I have, myself, not heard any radical—“radical” isn't a good word—but any real outspoken complaints. On that basis, I would assume that the desegregation of faculties which we experienced this year has not materially hurt our educational program. I would have to answer you this way: If you ask me about any particular group of white teachers that we employed for the first time and put in formerly all-white faculties or any particular group of Negro teachers that we em ployed and put in formerly all-Negro faculties—what I ’m saying is, Mr. Ryan, just now do I begin to see results of the teaching I did almost twenty years ago, because I see young people whom I taught and I see what they have become. I don’t know whether it was my influence or some other teacher’s, but it takes a while to actually see the re sults of teaching— Q Well— A —when you’re not closely—you see, I don’t follow these people day to day like their supervisors. Mr. Ry a n : I have no further questions at this time. App, 6 T he Court: Mr. Goldblatt. Mr. Goldblatt: No, sir, Your Honor, no questions. T he Court : Mr. Davis. cross examination By Mr. Davis : Q Mr. Brewster, for the purpose of the record, will you review what your experience has been in the Public School System of Norfolk? I ask that question because, as the record now stands, it seems that possibly you may have just come into the system as of January 1, 1966, and, of course, I know that that is not correct, but I would like for the record to show it. So would you go back and tell us, for instance, what schools you attended, what your de grees are, and trace your history on up to the present, please, sir? A My undergraduate degree was earned at Arkansas A. & M. College in Monticello, Arkansas. Subsequent to two years of teaching, I served four years in the armed services during world W ar II. I came to Norfolk in Au gust of 1949 directly from the Horton School of the Uni versity of Pennsylvania, where I earned my master’s de gree in business administration. I taught my first year at Maury High School, taught distributive education because I was employed to fill the position of a teacher who was on leave. I was reassigned the next year to Granby High School. I taught distributive education there for, I be lieve, two years, and then was reassigned to the social studies department and I taught history and government, geography, and along the way somewhere, some mathema tics. In 1954, upon the death of Miss Leah Halla, who was Clerk of the School Board, I was reassigned to the super A pp .7 intendent’s office as an administrative assistant to the superintendent and Clerk of the School Board. In that position, it was my responsibility to handle such teacher affairs as records, certification, contracts and retire ment. In November, I believe, of 1960, I was reassigned by Mr. Lamberth, after he became Superintendent, to the personnel department as Associate Director of Personnel, where I have been ever since. Q So you have been dealing directly with personnel since 1960? A Yes, sir. Q I understood you to say, Mr. Brewster, when Mr. Marsh was asking you if you had any numerical goal, that you did not have any numerical goal, but I did understand you to say that it was your intention to integrate the faculties in the Norfolk Public School System as quickly as you could, consistent with putting into the faculties quali fied and suitable teachers. Did I understand you correctly? A Yes. I don’t know that those are my exact words, but that was— Q That was the sense of it ? A Yes. Q So while you do not have a numerical goal, that is, a goal of one year, two years— Mr. Marsh : Your Honor— Q (By Mr. Davis)—or five years, you do have a goal? That is what I was trying to develop. A Yes, in the sense that I am under obligation to in tegrate the faculties. App. 8 Q Tell me, Mr. Brewster, do you find any resistance among your teachers to this business of integrating the faculties ? A Yes. Q Does it come from white teachers ? A Yes. Q Does it come from Negro teachers ? A Yes. Q Do you have any problems recruiting teachers these days? A Yes. Q Does the fact that Norfolk is committed to the in tegration of its faculties play any part in those problems? Mr. Marsh : Your Honor, I hate to interrupt Mr. Davis, but it is his witness and I think it’s certainly an employee of the School Board. I have accepted the leading up to this point, but I think that, in fairness, the witness should supply the information to go into the record, not the attorney, and we seriously object to this long line of leading questions from Mr. Davis. Mr. Davis: If Your Honor please, I understood Mr. Brewster was the plaintiff’s witness. They called him. Mr. Marsh : Mr. Brewster is an employee of the School Board and we object to these leading questions. T he Court: Well, ordinarily, I ’d say, Mr. Marsh, that you are totally wrong, but I do believe that in this case Mr. Brewster is in the capacity of being a managing officer of the personnel problem and, therefore, he could properly be called as an adverse witness. He was not called as an App. 9 adverse witness. Mr. Marsh just put him on the stand, and until he is called as an adverse witness, he quite properly becomes the witness of the party who called him who vouches for his integrity and for the truthfulness of the question. Now, I do think, however—of course, everybody employed by the Norfolk City School Board is not an ad verse witness, if that is what you are trying to convince me of, Mr. Marsh. You know that that is not correct, don’t you ? Mr. Marsh : No, I am objecting to Mr. Davis testify ing rather than Mr. Brewster. T he Court: Well, I say, do you think that everybody who works for the Norfolk City School Board is an ad verse witness ? Mr. Marsh : No, but I do not think that is the issue at the present time. T he Court: Well, but the issue is, who put this wit ness on the stand and for what purpose ? Mr. Marsh : Your Honor, I am sure that Mr. Davis can phrase his questions in a way to elicit information from Mr. Brewster. T he Court: I know he can, but he has a right to cross-examine a witness who is put on by another party. That is just a fundamental rule of law. Now, I quite agree, had you called Mr. Brewster as an adverse witness perhaps by reason of his being director of Personnel, he could be considered the so-called manager in charge of all personnel problems, and to the extent of interrogation on the faculty setup, it would perhaps have been proper for you to call him as an adverse witness. You did not do it. But, anyway, Mr. Davis, try to refrain from the leading App. 10 questions, if you will. I just want the record to be per fectly clear that everybody that is employed by the Norfolk City School Board cannot be considered as adverse. When you gentlemen put on someone as a witness, you vouch for his integrity and the truthfulness of his answers, and I take it you have no dispute with the answers of Mr. Brewster along that line. By Mr. Davis : Q Do you do any recruiting of teachers, Mr. Brew ster? A Yes. Q Do you have any problems with regard to recruit ing of teachers ? A Yes. Q Could you tell us what those problems are ? A Well, there are several and most of them could be lumped under the heading of “competition” in this sense: Teachers must —and I mean no disrespect to the indi viduals—but teachers must be considered like a commodity in that we go into a market to seek them and try to at tract the best that we can. In doing so, we must compete against other areas that might be attractive geographically and we must compete against salaries offered by other areas. I believe that this past year that we did experience difficulty in attracting p e o p l e because of our publicity which we got concerning the integration of our faculties. You see, one of our great competitors is our neighbor, Virginia Beach, which carries with it a lot of glamour, and also Virginia Beach has not been required to integrate their faculties to the extent—to any extent whatsoever. This puts us in a less than desirable competitive position from that particular point of view. App. 11 Q Can you tell us what the extent of the integration of faculties for this year was? Do you have those figures either in your head or with you, by any chance ? A The number of teachers involved— Q Yes. A —is that what you are asking ? Q Yes, the number of schools involved. Mr. Davis: If Your Honor please, we have an ex hibit that has already been filed, which I will ask the Court to actually mark as an exhibit later on, but I thought, while Mr. Brewster was on the stand, that pos sibly, if he could, he could testify to this and we would have the information afresh. T he Court : I believe it is in the report. Mr. Davis : It is in the report, yes, sir. T he Court: If you wish it read into the record, suppose you give it to Mr. Brewster. He can read it in. There is no sense of him approximating it— Mr. Davis : All right, sir. T he Court: —when he has the exact figures, and I don’t imagine he has it in his mind. I think it is right here, Mr. Davis. I assume that this is what you have ref erence to. Mr. Davis: If Your Honor please, it is in an attach ment to the Second Report of the Board for this year. T he Court : I think Mr. Brewster has it. By Mr. Davis : Q Is that what you have, Mr. Brewster? Is your top page— App. 12 A April 13, ’67? No, that’s—exception— Q Is your top page marked “Second Report of the School Board of the City of Norfolk for the 1966-67 school year” ? A Yes. Q Look under that, please, sir, and see if there is a resolution directly under that. A Signed by Leonard Davis ? Q No, sir, signed by Mr. Boothby, the Clerk of the School Board. A Page 2, “Motion of the School Board of the City of Norfolk for leave to file and for approval,” et cetera? Q No, it is not that one. Mr. Davis: If Your Honor please, may I find it? T he Court: Yes, indeed. Go up there and find it I thought I had it. T he W itn ess: “Resolution of the School Board of the City of Norfolk.” By Mr. Davis: Q Here it is. Mr. Brewster, you are now looking at page 2, as I understand it, of a resolution adopted by the School Board on March 28, 1967, which is a resolution which reviews the action which has been taken under the plan, and on page 2, there is a subparagraph lettered little “d”, and I would ask you, if you will, to read that into the record, please, sir. A “On September 6, 1966 when the schools opened for the 1966-67 school year: “ (1) The faculties in all of the System’s 4 high schools were integrated; App. 13 “ (2) The faculties in all of the Systems’ 11 junior high schools were integrated ; “ (3) The faculties in 28 of the System’s 56 elemen tary schools were integrated; “ (4) The extent of integration in the faculties was as follows— ”—do you want me to read— Mr. Davis: If Your Honor please, I do not know that it is necessary to read that since we are going to put it in to the record. Q (By Mr. Davis) But may I ask, Mr. Brewster, if the contents of this resolution, including the figures and statements, are correct? A Yes. Mr. Davis: I do not have any other questions of Mr. Brewster. Thank you, sir. T he Court: I take it you wish to be considered as a part of this record that report that you filed. I think it is in the record already automatically. Mr. Davis: If Your Honor please, at the appropriate time, I was going to ask the Court to review all of the var ious papers which the School Board has filed in its two reports and an attachment to its motion and identify all of them as exhibits. T he Court: I take it there will be no objection to that. Mr. Davis: I wouldn’t think so. And this would be one of them. T he Court : All right Mr. Marsh. Mr. Marsh : Your Honor, at the same time while we are talking about exhibits—we have no more questions of Mr. Brewster. App. 14 T he Court: Thank you Mr. Brewster, and I take it Mr. Brewster may be excused. * * * [tr . p p . 85-86] Edwin L. Lamberth called as a witness by the plaintiffs, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: * * * By Mr. Marsh : Q Mr. Lamberth, I think it is in the record, but to be sure, how long have you been Superintendent of the Nor folk School System ? A Since July 1, 1960. Q And I believe you have been involved in the various court actions and adjustments and orders and agreed plans that have been in use in this case over the last five or six years ? A I have. * * * [tr. p p . 131-133] By T he Court: Q W hat choices are available to those in Senior High IV area? A Senior High IV may choose Booker T. Washington, Lake Taylor, Norview and Granby—senior high school students. Q And those living the other areas, Senior High I, II, II I and V have no other choices except the particular high school in their area ? A That’s right. App. 15 Q Well now, you tell me why in the world students living in Senior High IV are apparently given four choices and the others are given none, except the one that they’re locked-in on ? A I can give you a layman’s school superintendent’s answer. I don’t know whether it’s legally correct, but my understanding is that, legally, we’re required to desegregate the schools, and that the only choice for a great portion of the Negro population which lives in Senior High IV to ever achieve desegregation is to have this choice, whereas— Q Well, it’s a racial plan. A Well, in that respect, it certainly is; it certainly is. ijs sfc Q Well, why don’t you let the children living in Senior High IV also elect to go to Maury, which is located in Senior High V, I believe ? A Well, our plan recites that, I think, or maybe it’s the report. I don’t remember which. In the course of our dis cussions with Mr. Ryan and Mr. Marsh and all of us who have been conferring, it was brought out that neither party to the discussion wished, when we were desegregating, to resegregate. iff jK [tr. p p . 139-189] Q Now, do you feel that this site will facilitate the de segregation of Booker T. better than some other site closer to the Lake Taylor side of town? A I don’t think you could put it anywhere to serve the 2,000 children who live there that would desegregate it. Q I don’t think you follow my question. A Yes, I did. App. 16 Q I will repeat it. Do you feel that the site where Booker T. is now and where it will be built again, ac cording to your plan, would better facilitate the desegrega tion of Booker T. as compared with a site closer to the Lake Taylor area ? A I don’t think either would facilitate its desegrega tion. Q But I want you to compare the two, the site you have selected— A They’re equal; they’re equal. Q You don’t think it would make any difference— A Wouldn’t make a bit of difference. Q —whether Booker T. would be over closer to the line between Lake Taylor and Booker T. ? A Wouldn’t make a bit of difference; wouldn’t make a bit of difference. Q In fixing the site for Booker T._, did you pick the site that, in the opinion of the School Board, would pro mote integration of Booker T. ? A We picked the site that would serve the children who have to go to it. Q Did you consider the effect of the site on the dese gregation of Booker T. ? A No, we picked it to serve the children. We don’t pick sites—as I say, the only way-—-the ultimate aim of your suggestion, Mr. Marsh, is that all the schools be at one point. Q Well, my suggestion isn’t important, sir. W e’re trying to get— A Well, that’s what you’re saying. App. 17 Q W e’re trying to get yours. A If you pick sites to promote integration, you put all five together in one spot and everybody comes there. Q Well, did you consider the racial consequences of your site ? Did you— A We knew what the racial consequences were, but we know that there are 2,000 children in that smallest school area in the city and they have to be served or they have to ride buses and pay a quarter a day. Q So you did not—my question was, did you pick a site which would promote the integration of the school, in the opinion of the School Board, or did you pick a site that would serve the physical convenience of the pupils? A I picked one that would serve the children who live in that part of the city, that’s right. I don’t know whether it’s physical or not, but academic, too, I hope. Q But you didn’t attempt to pick a site that would promote the desegregation of Booker T. ? A There isn’t any site available that would do it. Q No, I ’m just asking what the School Board intended. A No, we did not, but there is no such site. I want to get that in the record. You could move Booker T. to Ocean View and send the same pupils to it who are now attending it and it wouldn’t promote desegregation. Q Do you feel that the—I believe you have said this, but I want to be sure—do you agree that the location of a school has a lot to do with the racial character of it, along with the faculty and other— A If you mean by the location the housing that sur rounds it. W hat actually determines the nature of a school App. 18 —you talk about race—is the housing pattern that’s around it. That’s what determines the nature of a school racially. People like to go to school where they live gener ally. I don’t know of many people who don’t of either race. Q So you don’t have any plans, then, I take it, to pro mote the desegregation of Booker T. or to change it? A Yes, we’re going to desegregate the faculty and build a new building and improve the school just as much as we can. T h e Court: Haven’t we been over this, Mr. Marsh? The short answer is that they are not going to move the present location-—the contemplated location of Booker T. Washington unless Judge Hoffman orders it, and when I order it, I ’m going to be off the Bench. So let’s go on with the next order of business. By Mr. Marsh : Q I notice, Mr. Lamberth, that the plan presented by the School Board did not mention the construction of a new school. A Of the new Booker T. Washington School ? Q Yes, sir. A Well, we do not see how it would be humanly pos sible to have it ready to operate under this year’s plan. The plans— Q No, but you anticipate that at some future date the Booker T. Washington School will be operational and would be in use by the Norfolk School System ? A But that wouldn’t change the plan because it’s in the redevelopment section which the present school is lo cated. I don’t see how that would change the plan—just to transfer from one building to another on the same site, practically. Q Well, I think the plan speaks for itself on that. By T he Court: Q Mr. Lamberth, in the determination of this Booker T. Washington—and I know nothing about it except what I read in the paper, and I ’ve always gotten suspicious about what I read in the paper—what—if I recall correctly, there was a large group of prominent Negro citizens that worked with the School Board over a period of many, many months, didn’t they, on this ? A Yes, sir, there was a committee formed of several hundred people, I expect, and they had an executive com mittee, Your Honor, called—the committee was called “The Better Booker T. Washington Committee,” and I have met off and on with them for more than three years, I think. Q Well, has that executive committee now come back to the School Board and said, “We don’t want this in this location” ? A No, sir, the matter of this came up— first time I heard it was at the conferences with Mr. Marsh and these gentlemen who are here today, and, in fact, the first one I heard mention it was Mr. Barrett. He isn’t here today. Q Well, what did he say about it? Mr. Ma rsh : Your Honor, I don’t mean to object— A He asked the same questions that Mr. Marsh has asked today. Mr. Marsh : Excuse me, Your Honor. I don’t mean to object to a question by the Court, but I do think that it would be hearsay for Mr. Lamberth to testify as to what Mr. Barrett said. T he Court: W hat’s hearsay about it? Mr. Barrett is App. 19 App. 20 an officer of this Court and he’s invited to come here. He sent Mr. Ryan today, but-—- Mr. Marsh : Certainly, Mr. Barrett could give his opin ion. T he Court: Well, I would like to know what the situ ation is. W hat I cannot understand—there has been a threat of some money somewhere-—cut off of funds on the urban renewal plan that contemplates this very thing, and if St. John Barrett is responsible for it, I want to know— Mr. Marsh : Your Honor— T he Court: —if Mr. Ryan is responsible for it, I want to know; if you’re responsible for it, I want to know, because—• Mr. Marsh : Your Honor, I appreciate your concern, but I submit that this has nothing to do with the issues in this litigation. T he Court: Well, of course, the short answer to your point is that no federal judge can substitute himself as a judge for determination of where a school is going to go in place of the Norfolk City School Board and a committee -—a large committee of prominent Negro citizens whose very health and welfare is at stake, and just because you, Mr. Marsh, and some of these other gentlemen—and I will include Mr. Ryan and Mr. Barrett, although they have not objected, I understand—but you gentlemen want this school located in another place for one purpose. You think that it might tend to serve to promote the integra tion. You pay no attention to the rights and welfare of the children except from one standpoint—integration. Mr. Marsh : Your Honor, we are not attempting— App. 21 T he Court : But those children— Mr. Ma rsh : We are not attempting to argue the case now, but I want the record to show our objection to any questions going to Mr. Lamberth about— T he Court: All right, your objection is overruled. Mr. Ma rsh : —urban renewal funds, or anything else, or what Mr. Barrett said. T he Court: T hat’s all right. Your objection is over ruled. Now, let’s find out about it. Mr. Marsh : W e want the Court to note our exception. T he Court: W hat did Mr. Barrett say, Mr. Lamberth? T he W itn ess: Mr. Barrett was the first one I heard mention it. He asked us if we had considered moving Booker T. Washington to effect desegregation, just as Mr. Marsh did, and we explained to the whole conference that we had had this long series of years in which we had worked with the citizens who supposedly represented the school— I think they did—or the patrons of the school, and the implication was that regardless of— M r. Marsh : Your Honor, excuse me again. I hate to interrupt. Mr. Lamberth is talking about implications and things— T he W itness : All right, I ’ll take that back. Mr. Marsh : Mr. Barrett isn’t here for cross-examina tion. I think this is highly improper. T he Court: His representative is here. Mr. Marsh : It has nothing to do with the issues in this case. App. 22 T he Court: Are you afraid for the Court to know what’s underneath of all of this Booker T. Washington moving ? M r. M arsh : Your Honor, we have rules of evidence which we are bound by and we think that other witnesses and the Court should be bound by the same rules. We have no way of testing what was indicated and what Mr. Barrett felt in his mind. T he Court : You were there, weren’t you? Mr. Marsh : Mr. Barrett is not a witness in this case and this is highly improper. We object to it. T he Court: But we want to know what the crux of this thing is. If it is coming out of Washington, let’s find out about it. Mr. Ma rsh : Your Honor, there are rules of evidence. Witnesses can be subpoenaed. T he Court: All right. Mr. Marsh : But I object to this form of getting this information into the record. T he Court: I have ruled. Mr. Marsh : We have no way of testing the validity of his indications. T he Court: Mr. Marsh, don’t argue with me. I have ruled. You can take it up to the Court of Appeals. Every body else takes everything up. They appeal from all my decisions. You have appealed a dozen times. The School Board has appealed. They’ve lost. Everybody has appealed. Go ahead, Mr. Lamberth. App. 23 T h e W itn ess : Well, the matter was discussed of the location of the school, and the idea was that if we move the school—if we built the school, that we ought to have somebody from my office and somebody from the W ash ington-som e office in Washington to study what would be the best—where would be the best site to locate the school to promote desegregation. That was the upshot of the whole matter. T he Court: Well, who, in Washington, does that de ciding now ? T he W itn ess : I suppose H .E.W . would be the person. T he Court : And they control the purse strings. T he W itness : Yes, I ’m afraid they do. T he Court : Go ahead, Mr. Marsh. Mr. Marsh : No further questions at this time. T he Court: Let’s take a brief recess and then, Mr. Ryan, you may question Mr. Lamberth. (The Court recessed at 3 :40 p.m.) (The Court reconvened at 3 :55 p.m.) T he Court: All right, Mr. Lamberth. Mr. Ashe : We rest. T he Court: I understood Mr. Marsh had finished up with Mr. Lamberth. Mr. Mason : Mr. Ryan does not have any questions. T he Court : He has no questions. Mr. Mason : He had to step out of the courtroom for a few minutes. App. 24 T he Court: Mr. Goldblatt. CROSS-EXAMINATION By Mr. Goldblatt : Q Mr. Lamberth, can you tell us how many children from Bayside presently in Granby are expected to be trans ferred from Granby under this so-called choice plan? A You mean Bay View ? Q I mean from Bay View. I ’m sorry, sir. A No, sir, I do not have any figures elementary school by elementary school. I know that there are at present 861 tenth grade children in Granby High School and a certain percentage of those live in the district that, by these lines, would be transferred to the Norview district, but I don’t know the exact number. Q Do you have the figures on how many from the River View section— A No, sir. Q —would be transferred ? A I do not know. I have the total enrollment in each school here by grade, but I do not have the—have it census track by census track in court. We have that in our office, but we don’t have it in court. Q And from Winona, your answer is the same ? A Same, yes, sir. Q Now, do I understand that you have the figures— the approximate number that you expect to transfer from Granby at your office under this so-called choice plan? A We could figure that out, yes, sir. Mr. Goldblatt: I assume that this Court will go on tomorrow. I am not sure. T h e Court : Don’t assume too much. Mr. Goldblatt: All right, sir. By Mr. Goldblatt : Q But is there any way you could get those figures before the day is over ? A I don’t know that I can. Q Would you try, please ? A I will try, yes, sir. Q All right, sir. Now, Mr. Lamberth, you contemplate transferring these children presently in Granby High School from, these areas, do you not, to the Norview School? A Well, this—this new map of senior high school con templates that certain children now in Norview down in the southeastern section of the city would go to the new Lake Taylor School. Q Yes, sir. A Then certain children that are in Granby would go to Norview and that the sum total of transfers would leave each of the five senior high schools with approxi mately the same number of pupils, around one-fifth of 9800, or something like—whatever the enrollment turns up to be next year. Right now it’s between 9500 and 10,000. I t ’s in that area every year. Q All right, sir. Now, you’re motivated, under your plan, in doing this by the necessity of—or, rather, by over crowding at Granby, are you ? App. 25 App. 26 A Yes, sir. W e’re motivated by the fact that, for a modern educational program, we need a fifth high school. Q All right sir. A To get the enrollment down to 2,000—in the ap proximate neighborhood of 2,000, we can put on a better program and—and we—none of our buildings were built ideally for more than from 2,000 to 2200 and one, for in stance, Norview, at the present enrollment, has had as many as 2700 at one time this year. Granby has had as many as twenty-four or 2500, and so a new high school was necessary if we were to enhance our program in keep ing with modern educational standards and have room for the pupils, and so the new high school is necessary, yes, sir, if that’s what you mean. Q All right, sir. Your new high school at Lake Taylor? A That’s right, sir. Q All right, sir. However, the Granby High School is not overcrowded, is it, as it presently— A Well, this word “overcrowded” is—this word “over crowded” is about like the teacher discussion a while ago— “W hat is segregation?” Q I understand. A W hat is overcrowding? When I attended Maury High School, it was a much smaller building than it is now and it had 3100 pupils, and when I taught there, I never thought it was crowded with 3100, but I was looking for one room.. Modern education requires a lot more room than education of thirty or forty years ago. The programs, like distributive education and shop work and art and music and all the things that we have, require room, and so we built a high school because there is a great area of the App. 27 city with no high school and, essentially, because we needed additional room in the high schools which we occupy. Q All right, sir. Now, Mr. Lamberth, and by so doing, by affecting these transfers from these areas who normally would go, other than the existing— from the existence of this choice plan, to Granby—in affecting this, you—the enrollment in Granby will not be closed, will it? It will still be open for other students, would it not? In other words, when you put this choice plan into effect, the one you propose—and it’s been objected to, of course, by these gentlemen—when you put that into effect, you will have openings, will you not, in Granby, places for students to come to Granby from other sections ? A Well, we will have openings in all the high schools— Q I understand. A —compared to today’s enrollment, that’s right, sir— Q All right, sir. A —because we have four schools now handling the same number of pupils we anticipate for next year for five schools. Q All right. Now, the movement of these pupils from Granby—transfer of these pupils from this section of Granby will not, in any sense, be voluntary, will it, on their part ? A No, it won’t be voluntary. Q They have no choice, have they, sir ? A That’s right. Q So as to them, you can identify your proposed plan as a lack of choice plan rather than a choice plan, would I not be correct ? App. 28 A Well, setting up school districts is always a lack of choice plan, but it has to be done. I mean—- Q Well, Mr. Lamberth, you refer to the problems that you have had hitherto as—like the one you have now, which certainly has never been identified with the present problem— A T hat’s right. Q — of these gentlemen, yourself or my people ? A That’s right, that’s right. Q Now, the only school that will have a choice under your choice plan, the only people—-the students that will have a choice as to where they will go are the folks from Washington High School district; isn’t that right? A The people that live in section IV, it’s called on this map. Q Section IV. Well, you call that the Washington High School— T he Court: S. H. IV. T he W itness : S. H. IV, that’s right. By Mr. Goldblatt : Q And do I understand, sir—I believe I gathered this from your testimony—that the student in that school will have a choice of any of these high schools except Maury? A That’s right, sir. Q Therefore, you contemplate a number of these peo ple from Washington High School district will ask to go to Granby ? A I don’t know how many will ask to go to Granby. At present, there are two hundred and some in that area who are attending other than Washington High School. App. 29 Q I see. And you’re doing that—you have set up this plan not because it is a practical plan or a plan that suits most of the people, but because it meets the integration problem that the School Board is presented with, isn’t that so ? Isn’t that the reason you’re doing it ? A Well, that is the true—that is the reason for the choice that you mentioned. Q Yes, sir. And the-— A That’s not the reason for the lines. You have to have lines regardless of race. Q I understand. And the reason for that choice— back of that reason is the fact that it is necessary, under the present economic structure of the finances of the City of Norfolk, that it have federal funds with which to operate these schools; is that not so? And that, certainly, am I correct, has been the impelling motive towards your choice plan, as you call it ? A I don’t want to beg your question, but I understand that desegregation is the law regardless of funds. Q I recognize that, sir. A I thought it was. Q But do you understand, Mr. Lamberth, that in ef fecting desegregation that you must favor—that you must segregate one group of the population in favor of another group ? In other words, let me put it this w ay: Do you con sider it is an interpretation of the law that you allow the Washington High School people a choice that eliminates, as I understand you, segregation as far as they’re con cerned ; is that correct ? A That’s correct. App. 30 Q And do I understand you, sir, that as far as Granby, Norview and Lake Taylor, that they do not have a choice? A That’s right. Q And isn’t that segregation, Mr. Lamberth, accord ing to your knowledge of the law that you have just sug gested you know about ? T he Court: When you speak of Granby and Norview and Lake Taylor, you’re speaking of the people who live in the area, are you not ? M r. Goldblatt: Yes, sir. By Mr. Goldblatt : Q In other words, do you understand the law that in removing this problem of segregation that you must dis criminate against groups of the population or try to equal ize it ? A My understanding of it is, originally, the Court de cision said that you could not discriminate against every one— Q That’s right, sir. A —and I am no lawyer, but from what I ’m advised now, the Court decisions have been decided which say you not only can’t discriminate but you must desegregate. Now, that’s just my understanding as a layman. I don’t know whether the lawyers here present agree with me or not. Q Well now, sir, in effecting the—in executing the choice plan, such as you gentlemen propose, is it not a fact that it has disregarded the residence of students, their geo graphical location of their residence, in respect to the school, the desires of these students as to where to go? Is that not a fact that that has been the least of the con siderations ? App. 31 A There are two answers—you’re asking two ques tions. Q Yes, sir, I ’m sorry. I don’t mean to. A It has not disregarded their residence, but it has not considered their desires. If we have 55,000 pupils in schools, we can’t go around asking everybody where he would like to be when we’re drawing new lines. As to the first one, it has taken into consideration his residence and despite the geographical lack of symmetry of those lines, we have present today a man who— I didn’t draw those lines. I didn’t decide where they were going to be drawn personally. I approved the drawing of them, but we have a man here who did draw them— Q I see. A —and they are drawn in the best interest of pro moting the getting of children—the right number in a school to the school and all the other things that you take into consideration when you draw a school district. Q Mr. Lamberth, I believe you testified that high school lines were drawn, as far as possible, in an attempt to approximately equal the high school enrollment ? A That’s right, five times 1950 or 2,000 makes 10,000, and that’s how many children we have. Q Do I understand from you, sir, that in 1967 that that has just dawned upon you gentlemen—that you have to redraw those lines that had previously existed ? A Well, we didn’t have Lake Taylor. We had no reason to redraw them until we had Lake Taylor. Q Well, Lake Taylor—if you didn’t have Lake Taylor, do I understand— A We wouldn’t be in court, I reckon. App. 32 Q You would not be in court ? A I hope so. Q And you think, sir, if you didn’t have—you would have redrawn the lines again, would you not have— A No, we wouldn’t— Q You’d still give them, the Washington district, a choice ? A We wouldn’t have touched the plan if it hadn’t been for Lake Taylor. Q You would not have touched the plan ? A I would not have. I don’t know—we wouldn’t have touched the plan. It would be just the same plan as last year. Q Well, Mr. Lamberth, I will not press you, sir, fur ther in this respect, except to ask you this: You have no more idea as to whether this is going to work, as a prac tical matter, than any of these gentlemen or myself have, do you ? You cannot tell ? A I think— I think I have more idea, having been in school work thirty some years— Q I concede that, sir, that you have more than I do. A —of my intent. I don’t know what you mean by “work.” Do you mean that it’s going to turn out to be the right number of pupils ? Q Well, let me put the question directly to you: that you’re now' taking children out of Granby School—you in tend to—who have been going to Granby School— A One year. Q One year ? App. 33 A That’s right. Q All right. And they have been doing well there, haven’t they ? A That’s right, Q And they’ve arranged their lives and their schedules according to their being a student at Granby and you’re taking them out, aren’t you, and you’re taking them and you’re moving them over to a new area to Norview, are you not ? A That’s right. Q About which they know nothing yet ? A That’s right. Q And that means an entire change in their respective lives, does it not, and that has not been considered by you gentlemen in setting up this plan ? A It certainly has been considered. That’s the reason we didn’t change the seniors. Q You have. Well, is it not a fact that the majority of the people—the majority of the students who are affected by it are not the children who live in Washington district, the Washington High School, but in the areas that you changed it? Isn’t that so? A That’s right, and if we had no Washington district or had no case in court, we still would have to do what we’ve done. It was done in 1939 when Granby High School was opened. Q But you would not have made the changes you make now, as you said a while ago, if you did not have that new Lake Taylor School? A I say, but if we didn’t have this— App. 34 Q I see. A —case in court, we would have done it. Q But it has done th is : You have satisfied the law, you feel—that’s correct, is it not? A That’s right. Q —but you know you have not satisfied the students nor the people in the areas that have been affected by the change ? You know that, don’t you ? A We couldn’t satisfy them—if we were all one race, I couldn’t satisfy them. Q Well, I will say this to you, Mr. Lamberth: You really abandoned efforts to satisfy them, did you not, as you abandoned efforts a while ago to satisfy these gentle men about the location of the Booker T. Washington High School? Mr. Davis: I object to that, if Your Honor pleases. There is no evidence whatsoever that they’ve ever aban doned any effort to help these children. There is no evidence here— Mr. Goldblatt :Well, I say that they’ve abandoned— T he Court: W ait a minute, gentlemen. I will sustain the objection. I think you are arguing— Mr. Goldblatt : All right, sir. T he Court : —with Mr. Lamberth now. Mr. Goldblatt: Pardon me one second, Your Honor. T he Court: The superintendent of schools is in the same category as the federal judge—no matter what he does, it’s the wrong thing. App. 35 Mr. Goldblatt: Your Honor, I have no further questions of Mr. Lamberth. T he Court : All right Mr. Davis. Mr. Davis: If Your Honor please, I think Mr. Lam berth has testified to what I wanted to ask him, but I would like to make sure that it is clear. CROSS-EXAMINATION By Mr. Davis : Q Mr. Lamberth, if we were not in court with a school case, if this case had never been instituted and if you added Lake Taylor Sr. High School to your system, making five high schools instead of four, how would you have gone about incorporating it into your system ? A By drawing new lines and assigning approximately the same number of children to each area. Q Is it not true that under those circumstances, the line that affects the children in Bay View would have been changed ? A It certainly would have. Q Is it not true that the lines that affect the other children who have intervened here today would have been changed ? A It certainly would have. Mr. Davis: I have no other questions at this time, Judge. By T he Court : Q Mr. Lamberth, the various lines that are drawn, let us say, for the senior high school areas, are they drawn from the category of, as much as possible, reasonably App. 36 natural boundaries, transportation available, and with an eye to normal capacity of each school ? A Yes, sir, these lines were drawn by the research department of our school system, a staff of three or four people, and the only order given them from my office— and I gave them myself—was to draw those lines so that there would be approximately an even division of the chil dren and so that, with the existing natural boundaries of which Norfolk has more than its share, with all of its creeks and all, as you’re aware, and railroads—have few overpasses over the railroads—that natural boundaries be taken into consideration and, as I said a moment ago, the gentleman who is in charge of that department is here and I think Mr. Davis intends to let him give a short testimony as to how this map was developed. Q Well, it would be impossible, I take it, then, in the Norfolk School System, with respect to at least the senior high schools—and that’s the only thing—one I am direct ing my attention to now—to run any circular area around any particular school and say, “Well, all children attend ing high schools can go to any school they want to,” but distancewise, if one high school overflows from appli cations, you’d have to take it from the standpoint of dis tance ? I am speaking now—take Granby-—the people down at the end of Willoughby Spit would be further away than many of the people in the now— A Norview and Maury. Q — S. H. V area and S. H. II area; is that correct? A That’s correct. If you did that, that’s—you see, Norfolk’s geography is so unusual and a great big Naval base sits there separating Willoughby from the rest of the city, on which there are no children on the base itself, that if you—if you said that the children could go to any App. 37 high school and use these five districts and then said the ones who were furthest away had to leave, the children at Willoughby would have no high school because they’d be farther away from anyone. The people at Willoughby would be far away; the people way down here in the southeastern corner would have difficulty because—and this is because of Industrial Park and the airport being in the city limits, which is unusual in most cities—it’s usually out—way out in the county somewffiere— Lafayette River, a dozen creeks all around, and if you said, “W e’ll just let everybody go to his own school he chooses and then every body move out until it gets 2,000 and the closest ones go,” some people from Willoughby, if they had to go to the closest one that was empty, might end up at Lake Taylor which would be a thirty-minute—I mean an hour ride by two transfers in the morning in the crowded hour, and yet they ride by Granby and Norview, both. I don’t think this would work in practical— I just don’t think it would work. It was thought of years ago when we were in this case, and we have no idea—and as for the people here who are complaining who have intervened, we’d have 10,000 in tervening then, I think, because it would be at least 10,000 somewhere a few thousand here and a few thou sand there—who would be overcrowded and had to be shoved out of the school they have chosen, and everybody —everybody is angry with you and me now, but they’d be more angry then, I think. Q Well, the only way I can be discharged is to be im peached. You could be fired. A I ’m dispensable, you’re right. Q There have been choices before in various areas and they’re cut off this year, and I can understand the reason for it, because you had to push some previous Granby App. 38 children into the Norview area, the Norview area children into Lake Taylor, in order to get Lake Taylor properly filled. A Yes, sir. If we had everybody in a closed area or, rather, if we had everybody having some choice, we might get no children in Lake Taylor. I mean that would be pos sible. W e’d open a new school and nobody appear. Q How many children, if you know—and I don’t know that you have the slightest idea—who reside in the area designated as S. H. IV are exercising their freedom of choice to go out of S. H. IV ? A 290, I think. I ’ll look for a nod of head. The nod was right. There are 290. Q And where are they going, mostly, if you know? A They’re divided, but a larger proportion of them goes to Maury at present, but there are some in each of the schools that now exist, but there are 290 total. T he Court: Any other questions of Mr. Lamberth, gentlemen ? Mr. Ryan : Your Honor, may I, please, just a few ques tions? I apologize for not being here at the immediate re sumption following the recess, Your Honor, but if I might, I will just ask a very few questions. T he Court: Well now, when you’re in court—you were on the telephone, I suspect. Mr. Ryan : I was, Your Honor. T he Court: Well, you’re a court officer and you’re ex pected to be here. I will permit you to question Mr. Lam berth, but you either have to be in court or on the telephone, and please be advised accordingly. Go ahead. App. 39 CROSS-EXAM I NATION By Mr. Ryan : Q Mr. Lamberth, directing your attention to this ques tion of the location of the new site for Booker T. W ash ington High School, if I may, is this a question that did arise at some point in the discussions and conferences that we had in March among the attorneys for the parties to this law suit ? A Yes. Q And did those conferences begin with a presenta tion of these maps and the proposed changes in the plan for desegregation of the public schools of Norfolk? A Yes, these maps were on easels like this and the plan was read. That was the beginning of the conference, that’s right. Q So that the conference began with the proposed changes that had been recommended by the School Board and by yourself and by the other school authorities here in Norfolk; is that not so? A Well, they were recommended—the School Board had not adopted them. They had been recommended by me and my staff to the School Board. They had reviewed them and we were asked to review them with you, that’s right. Q Much of it was in the form of proposed resolutions for adoption by the School Board; is that not so ? A That’s right. By T he Court: Q Do I understand that there was any proposal in the School Board plan toward changing the location of the Booke~ T. Washington—• App. 40 A No, sir, there was nothing in there. There was no mention of the Booker T. Washington new building in our plan. I never heard of it until I went to this conference. Isn’t that correct? You never mentioned it to me before that conference, did you ? By Mr. Ryan : Q Well, I ’m getting to that. There did come a time, though, in the conferences that we had when the question of the line separating the new proposed Lake Taylor area from the new proposed Booker T. area came into question; isn’t that so ? A That’s right. Q And there was some discussion about that ? A That’s right. Q As well as there was discussion about other as pects of the plan ? A As a whole, that was the chief line that was dis cussed. I don’t think the lines were discussed very much— lines as such. The lines were rather generally accepted ex cept that there was a little discussion of that line, right. Q Now, was it not a point of concern among the attor neys at the conferences that the drawing of this boundary line between the Lake Taylor area and the Booker T. area might have a tendency to preserve Booker T. Washington as an all-Negro school, certainly all-Negro in its student body membership, more, in fact, than a tendency with the provisions that were made for a choice out ? A Well, we—yes, the attorneys-—you and the attorneys for the plaintiffs felt that the line helped to keep Booker T. Washington area segregated, and if I remember correctly App. 41 —I don’t know whether I did or someone else—but I said, “Well, let’s erase that line and call that all Senior High IV and there will be no difference.” Q All right. I ’m just trying—- A In other words, if you choose between two, whether you have a line or not, is immaterial. Q I just want to establish one or two points here at the moment, Mr. Lamberth, if I may-—first of all, that there was concern expressed about Booker T.-— A That’s right. Q —and about the new Booker T. area? A That’s right. Q And was there also concern expressed about Lake Taylor, that is, concern that— A That it would be predominantly white. Q That it would be predominantly white ? A That’s right. Q Now, was it not somewhere along in the line of this discussion about these two areas and about Booker T. that the question arose about the new site for the Booker T. Washington High School? It was in that connection, was it not ? A Yes, it was while we were discussing Booker T. Washington, yes. Q Now, at that time it was pointed out in the course of the discussion, was it not, that there were tentative plans to build a new Booker T. Washington High School in Nor folk? A That’s right. App. 42 Q And that the tentative plans called for locating the new Booker T. Washington High School essentially on the present site of the present— A T hat’s right. Q — Booker T. Washington High School? A That’s right. Q Is that correct ? A That’s correct. Q And it also developed in the course of these confer ences and discussions that the tentative site for the new Booker T. was situated within an urban renewal area; is that correct ? A That’s correct. Q Mr. Barrett, whom you have mentioned, was one of those who was present at these conferences; isn’t that cor rect? A That’s right. Q And was present at all of the conferences that were held among the attorneys for the parties in this law suit in the month of March—• A Correct. Q — 1967? Now, did Mr. Barrett engage in some dis cussion with the attorneys for the other parties in the law suit with respect to Booker T. Washington and the new site for Booker T. Washington? A You mean in my presence, did he talk to Mr. Mad ison and Mr. Ashe ? Is that what you mean ? Q No. I mean in the course of our conferences, was this a subject that Mr. Barrett addressed himself to? App. 43 A I remember on one occasion—you’re talking about three hours in which we spent about ten hours a day— I mean three days, ten hours a day, but I remember at one time he went and pointed to some vacant spots of land over in section III there and asked about the feasibility of building a high school over there instead of that site— just as you’re pointing now—he went to the map and point ed. I remember that occurring. I don’t know what day it was or what occasion it was. Q Well, isn’t that a fact— A Because I remember explaining that this was Indus trial Park and, you see, he’s not familiar with the city and this was an airport and you couldn’t build a high school there, and that sort of thing. Q Well, Mr. Barrett at no time held himself out to you or anyone else present as being someone who had great familiarity with the geography of the City of Norfolk, did he? A No, no, he was very nice. He said that, of course, it probably wouldn’t work and practically offered to withdraw the suggestion. In fact, I was surprised to see it in the ob jections after he talked as if it couldn’t be done. Q Well, do you have some understanding, Mr. Lam- berth, that the United States has filed any objections to this plan ? A No, I understood they haven’t. Q The objections you’re referring to are those filed by the plaintiffs; is that not so ? A That’s right, and that’s what sort of amazed me, you know, that they have objected to the site of Booker T. Washington. App. 44 Q Now, did Mr. Barrett at any time in the course of these conferences—these negotiations, is what they were, weren’t they ? A That’s right. Q Did he at any time hold himself out to you or any one else present, when you were present, as being any kind of an educational expert ? A Oh, no, no, no. Q And did he at any time suggest or propose to you that the School Board should consider changing the site of Booker T. Washington solely for the purpose of achieving greater desegregation ? A He did express the hope that we would get rid of that school, yes, he certainly did. I don’t know how he ex pected to do it, but he said he hoped we could do it. Q Is it not a fact that what he said was that he was concerned that by keeping Booker T. Washington on the same site and depending upon the nature of the urban re newal and the kind of housing that might go in there that there might be a possibility that Booker T. would be pre served as an all-Negro school? A I am sure he said that, too, sometime during the negotiation. Q And is it not a fact that what Mr. Barrett said was that he was concerned to know what factors the School Board had considered in selecting a site for the new Booker T. Washington? A That’s right, and I gave him the same reply I gave Mr. Marsh—that we had selected it because there are ap proximately 2,000 children in that—almost in walking dis tance of that site. App. 45 Q And did he not express concern about the effect of the site upon the racial composition of a future Booker T. Washington School? A Of course, he expressed that concern, but the truth of the matter is that the site has nothing to do with it. I t ’s the housing that’s around the site that determines the future of the school. Q And wasn’t that also something that was discussed in these conferences—the housing around the site? A That’s right, that’s right, the housing around the site is what’s important. Q And wasn’t it also brought out in the conferences that it was not known at this time just exactly what kind of development will be in that area in this urban renewal program ? A That’s right, nobody knows yet exactly, I think, what it will be. Q So that the nature of the remainder of the develop ment would also be a factor— A That’s right. Q —affecting the racial composition of a new Booker T. Washington High School? A I t’s proposed it will be some—mostly residential or else we’d even need a smaller school than that. I say it’s proposed that some of it be residential. Q Now, is it not also a fact that Mr. Barrett said, in the course of these conferences, that it might very well be that the site that has been selected—the same site for the new Booker T. Washington High School—might be the only proper site for that high school? A Yes, he said that, might well be, that’s right. App. 46 Q And that his interest and the interest of the Depart ment of Justice, as a party in the law suit, in the course of our negotiations and looking into the future of the schools of Norfolk, was to see whether, everything else being equal, it might not be possible for the School Board to locate Booker T. in a different site that would be equally educationally sound and meet all other factors that must be considered by the School Board but at the same time might achieve greater desegregation ? A That’s a long question. Q Well, I will ask the reporter to read it back, please. A All right. Will you read that back to me. (The question commencing on line 15, page 178, was read by the court reporter.) A I can’t answer that question yes or no because the one factor that is the most important factor in all location of school sites is where the children live, and that will never be equal—if you move that school anywhere else, that will never be equal. This is the highest number of walking children in high school in the city. To move a school away from them would be tragic, I think. Q Well, I was directing myself to the position that was represented by Mr. Barrett in the course of our ne gotiations. A You see, if you answer that yes, you’re saying that that’s equal and it isn’t true. It will never be equal. This is the highest per block concentration of pupils in the City of Norfolk. See how small it is? Look how big the Lake Taylor area is; look how big the Maury area is; look how big the Granby area is. This is the highest concentration of pupils in the whole city. App. 47 Q Directing my attention, however, Mr. Lamberth, to the negotiations that we had in the month of March and to these— A T hat’s right, but you prefaced it by saying every thing else was equal and everything else is never equal. T he Court: Well, I think what Mr. Ryan wants to bring out is what Mr. B arrett’s position was, primarily. Isn’t that what your thought is ? Mr. R yan : T hat’s correct, Your Honor, yes. By Mr. Ryan : Q I am trying to clear the air a little bit, if I can, on the interest— A Well, I didn’t mean— Q —that was expressed on the part of the Department of Justice in the location of a new Booker T. Washington High School. A Well, I want to join in what Mr. Davis said, Your Honor, if I may. Mr. Barrett and I got along famously. I mean we have no differences as people. The only thing that I said was, the first time I remember hearing in the negotiations anything about Booker T. Washington High School—just happened maybe I was out of the room when someone else mentioned it—I don’t think so—but the first time I heard it was when Mr. Barrett asked if we would take up consideration of a site for Booker T. in lieu of what you’ve said. He had prefaced it by some remarks about the Department’s interest in desegregating the high school and he was the first one that I had heard mention Booker T. Washington High School, but I did not mean to infer that he took the position of an expert in education or anything. No, he did not. He was very gentlemanly. App. 48 By T he Court: Q I understand that. He was the first one who sug gested it, as far as you knew ? A As far as I knew, he was the first one I heard men tion it. I don’t think—do you think I ’m correct Mr. Ryan? By M r. Ryan : Q The point I ’m trying to make, did this not arise in connection with your proposed changes and in connection with an inquiry on Mr. B arrett’s part as to the factors that had gone into the decision— A That’s right. Q —to locate the new Booker T. where it has been chosen to be located ? A Yes, that’s correct. Q But he did not at any time say to you or anyone else in these negotiations that the Booker T. Washington High School should be moved from one site to some other site solely for the purpose of desegregating the school, did he? A No, he didn’t say it should be moved for the sole— but the only reason he said for considering it was to try to get it more desegregated. Q While at the same— A I don’t see much difference. Q While at the same time having a site and a high school that would be equally educationally sound with any other site, if possible; is that not a fact ? A But he would have no reason to mention it if it was desegregated, would he ? Q Of course not. Now, in the course of these discus sions about Booker T. Washington High School and about App. 49 choice of a site for Booker T. Washington High School, Mr. Lamberth, did Mr. Barrett or did I or did anyone ever make any comment about federal funds in connection with an urban renewal project? A I didn’t hear any. There might have been some joking of sides, but I don’t think anybody seriously men tioned them, no, sir. I mean— Q Did anyone ever convey to you any threat that there would be some cutoff of federal funds ? A Well, in the course of conversation, Mr. Ryan, of three days, the newspapers were there, with notices in the paper that—about certain counties in Virginia— Q I don’t— A —had them cut off, and so forth, I think it prob ably was a matter of a moment’s consideration not in re lation to Norfolk, but I mean federal funds are a topic of conversation anywhere. I don’t recall, but it might have been mentioned sometime somewhere, yes. I don’t know. Q I ’m directing my attention to this urban renewal project, Mr. Lamberth. A Well, everybody knows that the urban renewal is dependent on federal funds. I think everybody present knew it. Q You mean that was very much in your mind, per haps ? A No more in my mind than any one of a dozen things. Q Well, did Mr. Barrett or anyone else at any time say anything to the effect that there was going to be any cut off of any federal funds for that urban renewal project? A I remember someone saying that if we had to find another site that it—- App. 50 Q Well, would you try to— A —might not have urban renewal there because it’s known as the educational project and the high school is an integral part of it. Q Did Mr. Barrett ever threaten you— A No, he did not threaten me. Q —with any cutoff of federal funds for this urban renewal project? A Mr. Barrett has never threatened me with the cutoff of any funds. Q Did you ever hear him say a word about federal funds of that urban renewal project and there being any— A No, did not, did not. Mr. Ryan : I have no further questions at this time, Your Honor. T he Court: Do we have anything else of Mr. Lam- berth? Mr. Marsh? M r. Marsh : Your Honor, just one question. REDIRECT EXAMINATION By Mr. Marsh : Q I looked through the record— I didn’t see whether we had the capacity of the new Lake Taylor High School. If you would give us that for the benefit of the record. A The Lake Taylor High School is built, depending upon the grades that are in it at any particular time, to handle between 2,000 and 2200. Virginia school authori ties have a ten percent leeway—2,000 to 2200. Q Thank you. App. 51 A 2,000 to 2200. T he Court : That’s with the full grades ? T he W itness : W ith all grades, the senior class. T he Court: Are there any other questions of Mr. Lamberth ? Mr. Marsh : No. Mr. Davis: If Your Honor please, I have probably two, and if I may ask them now, it might save putting him back on the stand later. T he Court: Yes. recross-e x a m in a t io n By Mr. Davis: Q Mr. Lamberth, it occurs to me it might be helpful for the record, if for no other reason, if you would come down here and designate the respective areas and state what the blank spaces on the map are. Of course, we all know what they are, but it doesn’t show up in the record. I am thinking about the Naval Base—• T he Court: I guess you’d better write it in there, then, because I know what they are, but—- Mr. Davis: Would it be permissible for Mr. Lamberth just to write them on the map ? T he Court: Yes, write in Naval Base and the airport and Industrial Park, and so on. Mr. Davis: That’s fine. I thought it might— T h e Court : In fact, you can do it afterwards. Mr. Davis : All right. T he Court: You could do it afterwards, as far as that’s concerned. Mr. Marsh : Your Honor, we could get together and do this after the trial, just to save time. Mr. Davis: That will be fine; no use in doing it now. By Mr. Davis : Q My other question was th is : Reverting to the state ment you made to the effect that you recognized—some thing to this effect—that you recognized that there’s a problem in connection with the Rosemont Jr. High School. W hat are the factors that make up that problem that you mentioned there ? A The Rosemont Jr. High School was built as a com bination junior high school and elementary school, and at the time it was built, there was considerable housing ad jacent to the building. In the past three or four years, it has become a redevelopment project, a very active one recently. I understand that equipment is there and work is already starting on some—something to return the hous ing to that area, but as a result of this redevelopment pro ject, many homes have been removed from that area. In addition, two major highways, one interstate, which took out a great many homes, has come through there, and Chesapeake Boulevard has been considerably widened and made into a parkway street, and all of this has happened in the last two years. Consequently, the enrollment of elemen tary and junior high school, combined, of Rosemont has gone down from almost capacity, which it was soon after it was built, to perhaps less than two-thirds or maybe two- thirds of capacity at present, considering all grades. Now, the building is momentarily starting actually out of the ground, I think, on the redevelopment, and if the plans pro A pp.52 App. 53 ceed apace, the long range urban redevelopment plan for that school calls for filling that school and building another one. No, whether—how quickly those houses will be rent ed or whatever the urban—our experience with urban de velopment has been that they’ve all stayed pretty full once they’re built. Young Park has stayed full and Diggs Park, and all the others, where we’ve built schools, but this—the long range plan for the housing in that area and this, more than any choice plan at all, has contributed to the under-pop ulation at the moment that exists momentarily at Rosemont School. The actual area has been torn by two forces—urban renewal and interstate highway, both of which are n e a r - interstate highway is completed and urban renewal is be ginning to rebuild. Q I take it from your answer that that under-popula tion may be simply quite temporary ? A It should be because the federal government has ap proved an urban renewal project in that area and wouldn’t approve it until we laid aside a site for a second school. Mr. Davis: I have no other questions, if Your Honor please. By T he Court: Q W hat are the transportation facilities for the area in and around Northside and Bay view down to Rosemont? Mr. Marsh made some comment. I think he was intimating that he felt—at least I believe he did—some of the Bay View students should be required to be assigned into Rose mont as a requirement. W hat are the transportation facil ities ? Is that split by this interstate route or proposed inter state? A Well, there’s an underpass at two streets there, Sewells Point Road and Chesapeake Boulevard. App. 54 Q I ’m talking about the other—we’re not worried a- bout the senior high schools. A Over here. Well, there are three—there are four major north-south arteries, three of whom—of which, I think, have transportation lines, Your Honor. Granby Street is one. Tidewater Drive is a major artery, but it’s a dividing line in many of our district plans, as you see, be cause it’s a high speed—it’s forty miles, I think—and then Chesapeake Boulevard and Sewells Point Road. Chesa peake Boulevard has a bus line just as Granby Street has. Q Chesapeake Boulevard is the only one that would take any child near Rosemont ? A That’s right, one— I’m not sure. Well now, Military Highway also has a bus line and it’s about—Rosemont is about three blocks from each thoroughfare— from Mili tary Highway or Chesapeake Boulevard. I t ’s about two and a half and two and a half, or something like that, in blocks. Closer than that, really, because this spot doesn’t mark the whole area. T he Court: All right. I f there is nothing further of Mr. Lamberth, thank you, Mr. Lamberth. * * * [tr. p p . 251-253] RECROSS-EXAMINATION By Mr. Davis: Q Mr. Lamberth, one or more of the persons who intervened today set forth as an objection to the plan of the School Board the fact that government children who last year attended Maury High School or this year or, rather—I ’m mixed up now—government children who this year are attending Maury High School will, under our pro App. 55 posed plan, attend Granby. Will you explain to the Court and for the purpose of everyone what the situation has been with regard to those government children and why the changes to them ? A The situation in regards to those is that these chil dren live in the northern part of the city, around the figure Sr. H. I on the senior high school map here, and during World W ar II, the number of government housing units there was increased sharply. There were practically none before that, and these children were housed there. The Naval Base was expanded and keeps expanding, and they were arbitrarily assigned all over the city, wherever there were any vacant rooms, and at that time there was room be cause we had not had the two annexations, had not in corporated Norview High School into the system until 1955, and these children, through sort of an unwritten agreement with the Navy, were allowed—at times the Navy transported them, to wherever rooms were vacant, with the understanding that when the city’s building program pro gressed to the point that we had another high school and could place children nearer their homes on some education ally sound basis that they would be housed in the nearest high school, which is Granby High School. I t’s the nearest school, as everyone can see, to the government installations along Hampton Boulevard. 4^ v£*- -T 1 '»*• Mr. Davis: If Your Honor please, before I call the next witness, may I say this, before I forget it any longer. When Mr. Lamberth was being examined by Mr. Ryan, questions were asked with regard to this rumor that came down to the effect that the government might cut off federal funds if the plan wasn’t approved. I would like to state for the purposes of the record that I heard that App. 56 rumor, but I did not hear it from either Mr. Ryan or from Mr. Barrett. Neither one of those gentlemen made any threat along that line whatsoever. The information I re ceived was from a totally different source. I do not think it is material, but if the Court would like to hear it, I will be glad to tell you the source. T he Court: No, I did not understand there had been any direct threats to any member of the School Board or to their counsel, but indirect threats can be just as effective as direct threats when the chips are down and you start counting those dollars that come out of Washington. Mr. Davis: W hat I want to make clear is that what I heard did not come from either Mr. Ryan or Mr. Barrett. T he Court : I know where it came from. [tr . p p . 255-266] John C. McLaulin called as a witness by and on behalf of the defendants, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: direct exam ination By Mr. Davis : Q Your name, sir, is Dr. John C. McLaulin? A Yes, sir. Q W hat is your address, please, sir ? A I live at 311 W est McGinnis Circle, and that is in Norfolk. Q Are you associated with the School Board of the City of Norfolk or its administrative staff? App. 57 A Yes, sir, I am the— Q In what capacity ? A I am the Director of Research. Q Dr. McLaulin, will you tell us, please, where you went to school, what degrees you have and what experience you have had ? A Yes, sir. I earned a bachelor’s degree at Duke Uni versity in music education in 1955 and a master’s degree and a doctorate degree at the University of Virginia, the latter in 1961. I have one year’s teaching experience in public schools, some four years of teaching experience with the military services. I spent about four years in Baltimore County, Maryland, attached to that Department of Re search, and since 1961, I have been in my present position. Q W hat are the duties which you perform as the Director of the Department of Research ? A Well, by and large, I administer and supervise the research program in the School System, and this involves the conduct of research projects or the supervision of re search projects being conducted by other members of the School System and I do advise students attached to the colleges who wish to conduct research projects in the School System, some of our teachers who are working on advanced degrees; the bulk of the work that I do, aside from this, can be summed up in a general statement which is at the direction of the Superintendent and my position is to assist the Superintendent in presenting the instructional program which he has at hand. Q Mr. Lamberth testified that you, at his request, pre pared this map which is identified as “Map—Senior High Schools, as amended, 1967.” Will you tell us, please, sir, App. 58 how you prepared that map, just what mechanics you followed and what procedure you followed ? A Yes, sir. I think there are two things that we need to know as background. One, on the last day of September or on September 29th, to be exact, we conducted a federal survey for Public Law 874, and this is the federally im pacted law. We are required to do this two times every year and we must obtain information from every student in the School System at that time. The other thing that we need to know is that the Planning Commission has recent ly divided the city into approximately ninety planning dis tricts, and during the summer and early part of September, the Planning District did put together a booklet entitled “Planning District Delineation,” which translates every address in the City of Norfolk into a planning district number so that if we know that—if a child gives an ad dress as 124 East Little Creek Road, we can look in the Planning District Delineation and tell where he lives in terms of planning districts. This gives us a geographic and distribution of all the children in Norfolk. W hat we did was to take the federal survey cards on which was the ad dress of every child and check that address against the Planning District Delineation and place this on data pro cessing and asked the machine to distribute the number of pupils by planning districts within schools and by schools within planning districts. This was two separate tabula tions, each of these by grade. Now, that’s the source of data. In preparing the map, the Superintendent asked me to do two things, basically. He asked me to suggest some lines on the map in such a way that the upcoming senior high school population would be equally distributed among the five senior high schools and he asked me to include the Naval Base children in Senior High I area in the school closest to them, which would be Granby. From that point on, it was a very simple matter. I simply started at the school and began to count children out from the school until we reached about 2,000 children. Our next year’s estimates indicate that we’ll have about 10,000 senior high school children for next year and for the next three or four years, as a matter of fact. So I started at each school and radiated out and counted about 2,000 children and drew a line around this and then I tried to adjust the line according to natural boundary lines, natural boundary lines being the waterways—major waterways or the major streets or highways in the City of Norfolk. Q Would you be able, Dr. McLaulin, to go to the map and trace those boundary lines and point out how they follow waterways and major arteries, or whatever they may follow ? A Yes, sir. T he Court: You’re speaking now of the senior high school map, I take it ? T he W itn ess: Yes, sir, speaking from the senior high school map. Mr. A s h e : If Your Honor please, if he were to get back like he was before, we could see better. T he Court: That will be all right. I think I can hear him. By Mr. D avis : Q Now, Doctor, it will be necessary to refer to the line and describe it so that it can be gotten into the record. A Well, I ’ll define the boundaries at Senior High School Area I— App. 60 Q All right, sir. A —and starting at the north part of the city, it does come down Chesapeake Boulevard to Bay View, west on Bay View, south on Tidewater to a point of water here, west to Granby Street, which also marks the boundary line of the Naval Air Station, south on Granby Street to Little Creek Road, east on Little Creek Road to Tidewater Drive, south on Tidewater Drive to Alsace Avenue; then it winds from Alsace Avenue west to the Lafayette River, follows the Lafayette River out to the western boundary of Norfolk and then connects back with the northern boundary, following the outline of the city. Q Now, are the various streets that you have named— tell us whether they are small streets, large streets, or what kind of streets they are, please. A Well, Chesapeake Boulevard is a major street; Bay View Boulevard is a major street or boundary; Tidewater Drive is. This is a waterway. Granby Street is a major street and Little Creek Road is a major street; Tidewater Drive, once again, is a major street. The way the line gets from Tidewater Drive to the Lafayette River is to follow the boundary line of one of the planning districts which I . mentioned earlier. I t ’s only a matter of some three or four blocks until we get to the waterway there. Q Yes. A And this waterway also happens to be a planning district boundary line also. The Lafayette River is naturally a major boundary, and then we’re talking about the re mainder of the city. Q All right, sir. Would you go to the next area, please, sir. App. 61 A Senior High School District II is defined on the north by the Chesapeake Bay or the boundary of the city as well as on the east; on the south it’s defined by Little Creek Road once again, which is still a major thoroughfare, south on Military Highway to Norview Avenue—Military H igh way is a major boundary—Norview Avenue—west on Norview Avenue—Norview Avenue is a major boundary -—south on the new interstate highway—I don’t recall what it is—64, I think—to a point intersected by Texas Avenue, west on Texas Avenue to a point of water which is an exten sion of the Lafayette River-—and I don’t really know what the name of the waterway is—and then it follows this water way to Tidewater Drive. This boundary which follows Texas Avenue and the waterway is an arbitrary decision. We had to get from Military Highway across to Tidewater Drive somehow and somewhere in a manner which divided this area between Norview and Lake Taylor Sr. High School. Texas Avenue seemed to be the quickest way to get across to the point of water which, once again, is the natural boundary line. Q Now, what happens to that line as you go westward and strike Tidewater Drive, which would be the western boundary of Sr. H. II ? A Well, yes, the western boundary of Sr. H. II is the eastern boundary of Sr. H. I— Q I see. A —which we’re back up Tidewater Drive and through the route that I mentioned a moment ago. Q All right. If you will now go to Sr. H. III. A The northern boundary is, as I just described, with Little Creek Road and Military Highway, Bay View Boule vard, Texas Avenue, along a point of water. On the western boundary, it follows the Virginian Railroad to—excuse me —to a railroad south of the 264 spur. I don’t know what the name of the railroad is. Mr. Lamberth : Belt Line, I believe. A Belt Line. M r. Lamberth : That’s correct. A Follows that east for a few blocks and then along a point of water to the southern boundary of the city, along the eastern branch of the Elizabeth River, follows the Elizabeth River eastward and the city limits back up to Little Creek Road. Q All right, sir. Now Sr. H. IV, please. A Sr. H. IV is defined on the eastern side by the V ir ginian Railway, as I mentioned, on the northern side by Princess Anne Road, west on Princess Anne Road for about four blocks, from that point northwest to another branch of the Lafayette River, follows the Lafayette River to a point one block south of Lafayette Boulevard, proceeds west on that waterway— I ’m sorry, I ’m looking for the name of this railway and I can’t find it. Q It is a railway, however ? A To a railway, right, and follows—continues to fol low west on this railway, south on Armistead Road to a point where it intersects St. Paul Boulevard and from there south to the southern boundary of the city and continues around the southern boundary of the city back to the eastern branch of the Elizabeth River. I ’m sorry, I can’t read the street names in here quite so well. Q That’s all right. A This is also—this northern boundary is also a plan ning district line and, for the most part, a waterway. App. 62 App. 63 Q Now, Sr. H. V, please. A Sr. H. V on the west—on the north is defined by the Lafayette River to Tidewater Drive, proceeds north on Tidewater Drive to another branch of the Lafayette River, south on the Virginian Railway, and west is defined by the boundary of the city, this line we’ve already described one time. Q And the southern boundary is what ? A Well, that is the line that we’ve described just a moment ago. Q As being the northern boundary of Sr. H. IV ? A As the northern boundary of S. H. IV, yes. Q Now, with regard to the various streets that you mentioned in addition to those you mentioned in dealing with Sr. H. I, are they small streets, big streets, or what kind of streets are they ? A Well, almost all of these streets are major streets, major throughways for Norfolk, with the exception of one or two instances—- Q Yes. A —which I said followed the boundary lines of plan ning districts. In this area there was no major street, just this small area from Interstate 64 west on S. H. II. Q You’re referring to that portion of the southern boundary line of S. H .— Senior High II? A Yes, sir, right in there, and this—this northern boundary of Senior High V, where it proceeds from the Lafayette River eastward to Tidewater Drive. It looks like a little peculiar line in there. Actually, the bulk of it is a waterway. App. 64 Q Yes. A About three blocks of it were defined by planning district lines. Q All right, sir. Thank you. Now, Doctor, did you prepare for Mr. Lamberth an inventory setting forth cer tain statistical information with regard to the schools, the pupils, the staffs, and so forth ? A Yes, sir. Q I hand you a document which is entitled, under its subject, “Summary of Inventory of Public School System (Federal Survey),” and dated October 12, 1966, and I will ask you, if you will, please, to identify that and tell us what it is. A Yes, sir, this is a memorandum from me to Mr. Lamberth, Superintendent of Schools, and it summarizes the data which we gathered as a result of a federal survey, the title of which was “Inventory of Public School Sys tems,” and the substance of the survey was asking for numbers of teachers and pupils assigned to the schools and to the central administration, broken down by racial dis tribution. M r. D avis: If Your Honor please, we would like to offer this as an exhibit. I do not believe that it is necessary, unless the Court would like for me to, to ask the doctor to review all of the information here. It is statistical information with regard to numbers of pupils and membership, percentages by race, number of professionals in the staff, and so on and so forth. T he Court: All right, let it be marked School Board Exhibit No. 2, and you better put the date after it, Mr. Clerk, if you will, please. App. 65 T he Clerk : Right. T he Court : Exhibit No. 1 ,1 believe it should be— School Board Exhibit No. 1. (Summary of Inventory of Public School System was marked and received in evidence as School Board Exhibit No. 1.) Jfc jfc [tr. p p . 296-322] Vincent J. Thomas called as a witness by and on behalf of the defendants, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION By Mr. Davis: Q Your name, sir, is Vincent J. Thomas ? A Yes, sir. Q W hat is your address, Mr. Thomas ? A 2053 Hunters Trail, Norfolk. Q And I believe you are Chairman of the School Board of the City of Norfolk? A Yes, sir. Q How long have you held that position ? A About six years. Q Are you familiar, Mr. Thomas, with the plan of the School Board of the City of Norfolk for desegregation of the Public Schools of the City as amended and as proposed and submitted to the Court, with the request that the Court approve it ? App. 66 A Yes, sir. Q W hat is the purpose of the School Board with re gard to this situation of desegregation of the schools? A I think it might be valuable to talk a little about the intent of the School Board and the background of last year’s desegregation plan and its evolvement into this year’s. F irst off, the School Board recognizes that the predominant body of law as interpreted by our courts and the civil rights law prohibit the operation of a dual school system and require that a system be a unitary system. We have had in the past a dual school system, and recognizing what the law says, we are now attempting to move to a unitary school system. In order to do this, with the background of tradition and custom and law, we have got to have some plan of movement and this is required by law and is our plan of desegregation. Now, this is the School Board’s responsibility and it’s strict ly the School Board’s plan, and last year we agreed to sit down with the plaintiffs’ attorneys, feeling that they repre sented the Negro community, and that the Negro com munity certainly had an interest in their schools, being—• having about forty percent of the school population of Norfolk. We also felt that the federal government had some stake in our schools, with some forty percent of the chil dren being either in the service or service-connected through federally connected employment, and in addition, that con siderable funds were being put up, that the federal govern ment had some stake to see that our schools were not being operated in an unlawful manner. This grew out, actually, of the Booker T. Washington controversy which we had in which the School Board decided, on its initiative, to bring in the representatives of the Negro community and the patrons of Booker T. Washington and see exactly what their views were. App. 67 As far as I know, this was the first time that our School Board had done anything like this. Through the evolvement of various meetings and through continuous meetings, some of which have been held relatively recently about the Booker T. Washington situation, we have worked closely with these representatives so that we would know of their thinking and take it into account in our final decisions, reserving at all times to ourselves the final responsibility for deciding school matters. Now, what we have is an interim plan. It would certainly be desirable at sometime in the future for us not to have a plan of desegregation; that we could reach some point where the School Board again assigned its pupils on a basis that was acceptable to all of our citizens. So this is actually an interim plan. Now, we heard here today attacks on the plan from a number of people, and with this complicated matter that we have and with the body of law that’s being developed every day and with different decisions by different courts, we must decide what we think should be done and what is best for the City of Norfolk. Now, any plan that any body could devise could certainly be attacked by either side. I recognize that, but in moving from a unitary— from a dual school system to a unitary school system, we must devise some plan of doing it and this is what it is. We have tried to operate in good faith. We have taken certain affirmative actions. We have been responsive, we think, to the Negro community, as evidenced by the Booker T. Washington situation. We have had voluntary conferences with the representatives of the NAACP and with the Department of Justice. We have on our School Board an able and articu late Negro attorney who certainly is aware of what’s going on and has certainly made his position entirely clear. Our Board has always been accessible to anybody who wants to App. 68 come and speak before it. We have never denied any citizen the right to present his case to the School Board. Last year, without, we thought, any law to demand that we do it, we voluntarily agreed to begin a plan of faculty desegrega tion, feeling that in the long run that this would mean a better education for all of our children. Our summer pro grams have been desegregated. In the Maury High School situation which came up, we were under some pressure to make changes there which might result in more or con tinued segregation which we resisted. We have not ne glected the schools in any community. We feel that our schools—we have old schools and we have new schools, but certainly all over the city the schools are equal; the staff- ing is equal; the pupil-teacher ratios are similar. We have not neglected our so-called poor schools and given to our rich schools. In our plan of freedom of choice, there has not been any charge, nor do I believe that anyone has—any student or any parent has been influenced or coerced in any manner not to choose a school that he had a choice of. W hat we, as the School Board, have wanted in this whole matter is to devise something that would give to each Negro child a meaningful opportunity to choose a desegre gated school, if he and his parents have wanted to, and do it in such a manner that it would be accepted and supported by most of the citizens of the community, recognizing that there’s no possible way on earth that we can please every one. We have felt that any integration that we have will not be worth anything unless it’s successful, and we can force it and we can look to some of our northern neighbors, like Washington, and we can see the results of forcing integra tion where it is contrary to the customs and feelings of the people. W hat we have had in Norfolk, especially around Blair and Maury, is what I would call a natural integration. App. 69 The neighborhoods have changed and this has been ac cepted, by and large, by the people of Norfolk, but any coercion of moving people—picking them up and moving them out of their natural neighborhoods into a situation merely for the purpose of desegregation—of integration, we do not feel that it will be accepted by the preponderance of the citizens of Norfolk of either race. So this is what we have tried to do— is to obey the law in such a manner that it will be supported by most of the citizens of Norfolk. M r. Davis : Mr. Thomas, answer these gentlemen, if they have any questions, please, sir. T he Court : Mr. Madison. CROSS EXAMINATION By Mr. Madison : Q Very fine speech, Mr. Thomas, but let me ask you just one or two questions. Mr. Thomas, I think it has been testified here that the School Board actually makes the assignments of teachers. Am I correct? A That’s right, they are approved by the School Board, Mr. Madison. Q Yes, sir. Recommendation by the Superintendent? A We approve or disapprove. We do not make the actual assignment. If an assignment is recommended to the School Board, we either approve it or disapprove it. We don’t disapprove it and say, “No, we want you to put so and so.” This is an administrative job and Mr. Lamberth handles that. Q And it has been testified to that you approximately have a turnover in the high schools of faculty of about twenty percent each year; is that correct, sir ? App. 70 A I heard the testimony. I can accept that. T hat’s—• Q All right. Now, let’s take a typical high school. Let’s take Granby High School. Last year—the reports you filed here of September, ’66—you had a total of 107 teachers at Granby High School and you had two Negro teachers. Do you know whether or not that figure will be changed for the 1967-68 school year ? A I wish you’d ask Mr. Brewster this. He is operating under a School Board policy that says that we assign teach ers who are suitable without regards to race, and it is cer tainly not the intention of the School Board to limit it to two, provided that suitable teachers, with the proper cer tification, can be found. Q Well, I believe, as of last year, you were working under a plan wherein a vacancy occurs, that vacancy, as far as possible, would be filled by a member of the race in the minority, right ? A If there were two candidates and they were of equal suitability and equal certification, that’s correct. Q Well, when you hire a person, do you give them the opportunity to choose whether or not they will teach in an integrated school or whether they have the option to say, “No, I ’m not going to teach in this school; I want to teach in that school” ? A Well, this is a personnel matter, Mr. Madison. W hen ever you’re dealing with people, you must take their wishes into some account. You heard Mr. Brewster testify to the competition that we have in obtaining teachers. I t’s not only matters of pay and working conditions and living condi tions and cost of living. There are a myriad of things that influence what job a teacher takes. W e’re just not in a position to lay down strict orders to anybody that may hap App. 71 pen to be against their wishes. This is a personnel matter and people would come to work for you if your conditions— if they accept your conditions. If they don’t accept ours, then they can choose Virginia Beach or Portsmouth or what is—in the case of many of our teachers, they are discretion ary—they don’t have to teach at all. Q Well, let me ask you this, then: Do you suffer from a shortage of teachers ? A I think that every school system suffers from a shortage of qualified teachers. I don’t think that in any basis of hiring teacher personnel that any teacher personnel officer feels that he’s got enough to choose from. Q Well, isn’t the truth of the matter that the School Board gives the teachers the option of selecting whether or not they wish to teach in an integrated school or not? The teacher still has that privilege, right ? A If a teacher refuses to go to an integrated school and we want the teacher, the chances are, under the current circumstances, we’re going to try to accommodate the teacher, but at the same time we have tried to let all of the teachers know that this is an important matter to our School System and that we do hope that they will cooperate and go where our personnel people and our administration feels that they can do the best job for the children. Q Well, are you familiar with a form that was cir culated through the schools, asking the teachers to signify on this form whether or not they wished to be transferred to a school of a different racial group ? A I don’t recall the wording. It was, I think, sent out to all of the teachers to indicate which teachers would be interested in considering this matter to give the personnel department some basis to operate from. App. 72 Q So so far, then, as the integrating of teachers in the schools is concerned, it is still left entirely to the individual teacher ? A No, it is not. Q And the School Board does nothing about that? A It is not left to the teacher. Our administration and our personnel people have vacancies and jobs to fill and they must fill them in the best way they can. Now, to the extent that they can use their persuasive powers, they do so to get the teacher to do what is best for the system. This is what our personnel people in our administration are trying to do—what is best for the system. Q Mr. Thomas, do you know of any directions ever given to any teacher that she must teach in a certain school ? A As I say, no direct information. Q All right. A I mean there might be some that they do tell to, “Go here.” Q Well, has it ever come to your attention that some teacher quit because she was transferred or threatened with a transfer ? A No. We have teachers leaving the system all the time. This is not in the realm of policy— Q But you never had— A —and doesn’t ordinarily come before the Board. Q But it has never been brought to your attention that they are leaving the system because of the threat of being assigned to some school ? A I wish you’d ask all this to Mr. Brewster because he has all the individual things. I ’ve heard of some teachers that have been assigned somewhere that they didn’t want App. 73 to go or their husband didn’t want them to go. I t’s a matter of—it’s a personnel matter. W e’re not running the Army. These people have a choice and they can either work for us or not. Q But what I ’m getting at— T he Court: You’re speaking of the present teachers; you’re not talking about the new teachers ? Mr. Madison : I am talking about the present teachers, yes, sir. A You see, there’s a shortage of teachers everywhere and it’s a seller’s market as far as the teacher is concerned. H er services are very valuable and she can sell them to anyone she pleases. I t’s not—we’re not in a buyer’s market where we have teachers breaking the door down to get a job. This is one of the problems we have in education now. By Mr. Madison : Q Well, then, the sum total of what I am trying to ask you, Mr. Thomas, is this: To the best of your knowledge, the only effort made by the School Board, then, to integrate the faculties is to get voluntary compliances by the teachers in response to these questionnaires that they send out ? A Well, Mr. Lamberth and I both spoke over our tele vision, urging them—telling them of the problem and urg ing them to help us in its solution, and I would hope that as time goes by that all of these teachers will recognize that their duty is to educate children, and then at some time we will be able to assign the teachers where they can do the best job for the system. This is what the plan says and this is the interim period we’re going through now. Q Now, as to the new teachers coming into the system, are they given the same opportunity to choose a school that they want to go to ? App. 74 A No, I think probably, from a personnel standpoint, a new teacher may accept some direction maybe a little quicker than a teacher who has been with us a long time. This, here again, is an individual personnel matter. I don’t think, based on the experience we’ve had, that it’s probably very educationally sound to put a brand-new teacher out of college into an unfamiliar situation. We found that this has not worked out particularly well educationally. So I would think that Mr. Brewster will be very careful in the selection and the placement of his new teachers. Q So then the new teacher, when she comes in, she is also given the option of whether or not she wishes to be as signed to a school where the majority of the children are a different race ? A If that is her ultimate refusal to do so and if it appears from our situation that we need this teacher for the overall good of our system, I would imagine that Mr. Brewster will hire her. There may be other cases where the teacher might be not in the top group that we’re hiring but in the lower group, and when she refused or said that she wouldn’t do this before coming into the system, it might be that he would say, “Well, we’ll hire somebody else then.” This is his job. This is the administration’s job. They— Q But I mean as Chairman of the School Board, you have some idea of the— A They’re operating under our policy to hire, assign and transfer faculty based on qualifications and not based on race. Q So then Mr. Brewster has this wide latitude of selecting persons ? A Mr. Brewster has to report to Dr. Ray, who reports App. 75 to Mr. Lamberth. These are administrative matters that are handled under the policy laid down by the School Board. Q Just one or two more questions. Now, Mr. Thomas, as Chairman of the School Board, does the Board have any definite goal in the area of time for complete desegre gation of the schools ? A No, I don’t see how we can set any goal. We have taken on what we thought that we could do and I think, by and large, have succeeded relatively well during the past year. We plan to continue with that. This is bound to be a long-time proposition. W e’ve got to go from where we— from here to there and you’ve got to travel the road to get there. Q Would the same be true as to faculty ? A Well, that’s what I was speaking of—was faculty. Q W hat do you consider the main impediment toward a more rapid integration of faculty, sir ? A Well, we’ve talked about the individual choice— I mean the individual desires of these employees of the School System who are not captive. These are people who have a choice, just like an employee of the Naval Base or my com pany or anybody else. They are largely discretionary and there are other jobs available. Norfolk has very little un employment now. We have very fast-growing school sys tems all around us. There are plenty of opportunities for teachers and as the community itself accepts this matter of desegregation, then it will become easier and more natural. Q Now, do I— A But as far as my putting down a timetable about it, it’s— I see no way that I can do that. App. 76 Q Do I glean from what you say, then, sir, that you will move no faster than what you believe the community will accept; is that the idea ? A No, no, I say that I think what the community will accept will have a great deal of influence on what the teachers will accept. Q Well, what about the action of the School Board? A The School Board—- Q Is that predicated on what the community will accept also? A The School Board’s policy is to hire, assign and transfer teachers based on their qualifications and their suitability for the job at hand. Each teacher is—they’re not signed in blanket. They are assigned individually and, as I say, I ’m no professional educator, but just what little I know about personnel matters—and you’re dealing with professionals here—it’s—you have to handle the situation very carefully to accomplish what you want to accomplish. And then there’s the matter of certification, and so forth, that’s got to be taken into account, too. Q Well, I notice that you assigned seven white teachers to Booker T. Washington. I imagine, from what you said before, all of those seven indicated that they would be willing to go? A Yes, I— I don’t have direct knowledge of that, but I assume that they agreed to go where they were assigned and where we thought they could do a job or where the administration thought they could. Q And you have two Negro teachers at Granby. So I take it, then, the same thing would apply, that only two Negroes indicated that they would be willing to teach at Granby? App. 77 A Well, the high school situation is complicated on certification matters. You have a French teacher and if you’re going to switch, you’ve got to get two French teach ers, and so this is why-—although, you would think it would be easy to do it in high school, it’s much more difficult to integrate the faculty successfully and professionally in high school than in your elementary school. Q Well, you gave a good example if you had two French teachers. If you taught French at Booker T., would there be any difference from teaching French at Granby? French is French, isn’t it? A T hat’s right, yes. Q So then you could easily make a switch much more easier on the high school level, could you not ? A Providing the two teachers, in the opinion of the administration, could succeed in the other situation. You must admit that there’s some difference in the situation as far as the teacher is concerned. I t’s a personnel matter. You’ve got a whole lot of things to— Q And there again— A —I mean this is the way you would accomplish it, is by switching French teachers or having a vacancy because this one got married and then move this one and put the other one in over here. Q Now, has the School Board laid down any standards for Mr. Brewster to follow or he just follows it on his own because of his peculiar knowledge he may have or may not have ? A No, other than the plan which has been approved as the policy of the School Board. Q Well, has the School Board taken any steps to en courage Mr. Brewster to effectuate a more effective or a App. 78 more adequate equal distribution of the teachers to effectu ate the desegregation of the faculties ? A Oh, I believe that Mr. Lamberth, in his administra tive conferences and in his talks to his teachers, urges this matter. This is not something that we are trying—did a little bit of and are stopping. We intend to continue where we can find suitable teachers. Q Now, just to the senior high school map there for just a minute, Mr. Thomas. I believe, either in your plan or some letter that was written, that you stated that you would encourage and take the children who live south of the eastern branch—that you would take them on field trips to let them go over to see Lake Taylor School and so they would recognize Lake Taylor as a good school, and so forth, and could go if they wanted to go. Am I correct in that ? A Yes, we will—we have a freedom of choice plan as far as these students are concerned. I f we are to be straight forward about it, I see no reason for not letting them know what their choice is. As we understand the law, we cannot influence their choice in any way, but an informational pro gram we will certainly be willing to put on. Q Well, is there any definite reason why those children cannot be assigned over there ? A Well, none, other than that the School Board does not intend to assign them over there. Q That’s the only reason—the School Board does not intend to assign them ? A Well, we feel that is not germane to the whole plan. I t’s something that’s brought in extraneously and has no part in the plan as far as we are concerned. We have given every—what we said we would do all along-—give every Negro child a meaningful choice of an integrated App. 79 situation. We don’t intend to discriminate for or against that group over there by sending them out to Lake Taylor any more than we would for another group on the other side of the river. They have the choice. Q You spoke about certain conferences held with mem bers of the Negro community on the Booker T. Washington change of site. A No, I didn’t say the change of site. Q Are those conferences—well, of a new Booker T., put it that way. Are those conferences still planning or are they still being held, sir ? A As far as I know, with the administration, since they’re talking about what is going into the school—the program and the interior—I believe Mr. Lamberth is keep ing the committee informed as to the thinking of the ad ministration and getting their ideas and seeing what ac commodations can be made. Q But so far as the particular site is concerned, that’s a closed matter as far as the School Board is concerned? A As far as the School Board is concerned, yes. Q Now, Mr. Thomas, did anybody threaten you of cutting off federal funds if the school site were changed or anything ? A When-—-when we’re negotiating school matters— Q I didn’t mean to upset you. T he Court: Did that question floor you, Mr. Thomas? A When we’re talking school matters with the repre sentatives of a powerful organization like the NAACP, who has very many friends in Washington, and with the repre sentatives of the Justice Department, who are representa App. 80 tives of the government, and knowing that there is abroad in the land today a great deal of cutting off funds and with holding payments and everything, we are bound to feel, when we are pushed to the wall on something that we might consider to be— Q (By Mr. Madison) I hate to cut you off, Mr. Thomas, but I think you answered my question. Mr. Davis: If Your Honor please, he asked the question. M r. Madison : I asked the question, did anybody threaten him. I didn’t ask for all this. T he Court: Nobody said anybody had threatened him. Mr. Davis : He is answering it. A I will say— I ’ll say that I have received no direct threats, but that I must feel implied threats in any con frontation with— T he Court: In order to clear the record, Mr. Madison, let it be understood that no representative of the School Board, no school superintendent or assistant superintendent or school counsel mentioned this to me. I told Mr. Ryan where I got the information from. He knows where I got the information from and it’s higher up than the School Board. By Mr. Madison : Q Well, you have answered my question, then. This was just something that you thought of that might happen, but nobody told you that ? A No, no. Mr. Madison : All right, I have no further questions. Just a minute. I have no further questions. T he Court: Mr. Ryan, do you have any questions? App. 81 Mr. R yan : No questions, Your Honor. T he Court: Mr. Goldblatt. cross-examination By M r. Goldblatt : Q Mr. Thomas, I believe you indicated that you had concerned yourself with the law and with the organization these gentlemen represent with the Justice Department. I am interested in what manner did you consult the wishes of the people affected by this in the Bay View, Riverview and Winona areas, sir. A They were not consulted directly, Mr. Goldblatt. When—you want me to keep on ? Q Go ahead, sir. I asked you the question. A The matter of—we haven’t redrawn high school lines for a long time. W e’ve had a lot of redrawn elementary schools and some junior high schools that have dislocated some people and we’ve had mild protests. Now, we have brought a new high school into the system which we had hoped would be a matter of great rejoicing and happiness in the city. Unfortunately, in putting that high school on the line, we have had to move some children around. It cer tainly has been no fun for me and the administration to listen to the testimony today. Q I recognize that. A It makes us feel like ogres. However, we have the duty of educating all the children of Norfolk, which we do to the best of our ability, and in redrawing the lines, you just have to redraw the lines and we have done this in a professional manner, based on professional advice, and some parents and children must, in their opinions, suffer. App.82 I know of no restitution that we can make other than to promise that in the high schools to which they are assigned that we will run the best educational program that we can. Q Mr. Thomas, I think, when you say some of the resi dents must suffer, you mean, of course, that they be at a disadvantage in this setup ? A Well, in their eyes, a dislocation in this case that they may not w ant; in another case some other parents may like the dislocation. Q All right, sir. But from what you know, sir, with your position and experience as Chairman of the School Board and this problem, you do know, as a fact, do you not, that the overwhelming majority of the Bay View residents are opposed to what you gentlemen on the School Board have done? Isn’t that a fact, sir? A I accept that, yes, sir. Q Now, you could not, then, under your plan, give the choice to those people in the Bay View section or the River- view section or the Winona section as to where they’d want their children to go? You could not do that, could you? A No, sir. Q I see. So, actually, what motivated you gentlemen was the Lake Taylor School and the problem—the integra tion problem? T hat’s what it is, isn’t it, the combination of the two things ? A That is right, fitting the new school into the overall desegregation plan. Q Surely. Now, do you feel that the problem that the School Board has can only be answered in this manner? Is this the only answer to it-—to say to these people, “You App. 83 have no choice as to where you child will go” and to say to another group that “You have a choice of any school to which you want to go” ? Do you think that will answer the problem of satisfying the people ? A Mr. Goldblatt, we walk a very thin line and the direction that we get from all sources is not definitive, to say the least. So what we do we’re trying to do with all good faith—• good will and with the best information that we have. We want to do the best job we can for all of our citizens. Q Yes, sir. A —and at the same time we recognize a duty to move from a dual school system to a unitary school system and extraordinary measures have to be taken to accomplish it. This is—and in our best opinion, this was the way to do it, based on the best professional advice that we could get. Q Well, actually, sir, the way it has worked out, it can only be accomplished by causing great dissatisfaction amongst the people of these areas who have no choice; isn’t that what the result is ? A I recognize that result. Hopefully, in three years— Q Now— A —they will be acclimated to the school they’re in and would not want to fight us if we moved them again. Q Now, from your observation and knowledge, where do you think the children of Booker T. Washington—where will those students go now that they would be given the choice ? W hat schools would they go to ? A I think most of them will choose the school that’s convenient. This is what we find—that of all the reasons for going anywhere, people want to go to the one that’s most App. 84 convenient. Now, some will choose out. I have no doubt that there will be some that will choose Lake Taylor; there may be some that choose Nor view; there may be some that choose Granby. Q I see. A This is just a matter of an educated guess on our part and it may be completely wrong. Q I see. Now, I believe one of these gentlemen—I think it was— I forget who it was—spoke of having transferred or, rather, some of the government children will be—will be removed from other schools and go to Granby. Am I correct ? A Yes, sir. Q And have you any idea how many of those such stu dents there are ? A No, sir. Q I see. Well, of course, their going to the Granby School would displace others who are now there and will be subject to transfer? Isn’t that the way that will work out? A Well, I don’t— Q I mean in effect ? A In effect, yes. I mean we are—we are drawing new lines and bringing a new school into the system. There are many things that have to be satisfied in order to do this. Q I see, sir. Now, you have had delegations call at the School Board and on you personally, I have no doubt, in this connection, have you not ? A Yes, sir. Q And my last question to you is this: Is there any doubt in your mind that the overwhelming majority of App. 85 these people—Bay View, Winona and Riverview—are op posed to the School Board’s plan? A No, sir. M r. Goldblatt : Thank you, sir. T he Court: Anything else of Mr. Thomas, gentlemen? Mr. Davis : I have no other questions. Mr. Madison : We have no other questions. T he Court: Thank you, Mr. Thomas. * * * [tr . p p . 323-346] Allen H. Wetter called as a witness by and on behalf of the defendants, hav ing been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION By Mr. D avis: Q Doctor, if you will state your name and address, please. A Allen H. Wetter, 4324 Tyson Street, Philadelphia. Tyson is T-y-s-o-n. Q Doctor, if you will, may I go into a little bit of your —what I may call personal history briefly, sir. Where were you born ? A I was born in Philadelphia. Q Where have you lived all during your life ? A I ’ve lived in Philadelphia all my life. Q Where did you attend school ? A I attended schools in Philadelphia. App. 86 Q W hat Colleges did you attend and what degrees do you have ? A I attended the University of Pennsylvania and Temple University. I received by bachelor’s and master’s degree from Temple. I took doctorate work but never fin ished the dissertations, so four colleges gave me honorary degrees. I ’m an honorary doctor. Q How many honorary degrees do you have ? A Four, Beaver College, Temple University, Drexel Institute of Technology and St. Joseph’s College. Q Are they Doctors of Education or Doctors of Law or— A Letters, laws, literature, and so forth. Q That about covers the field of doctorate degrees— A Yes, I ’m afraid so. Q —doesn’t it ? A Yes, sir. Just call me “Mister,” it’s quite all right. Q All right, sir. Have you ever taught in the schools of Philadelphia ? A Yes, sir, I taught at the three levels of the school system. I served as a principal in each of four schools. You want me to go on ? Q Yes, sir. A I served as a district superintendent, as assistant to the superintendent, as associate superintendent and super intendent from 1955 to 1964, nine years. I retired. Q W hat professional organizations do you belong to? A Quite a number; the National Education Association, American Association of School Administrators, Phila App. 87 delphia—the Pennsylvania State Education Association, the Schoolman’s Club of Philadelphia. I am on the Board of Trustees of three college groups and one hospital. Q Have you ever done any consulting work ? A In Washington last year, I went to the Office of Edu cation for about—about eight or nine occasions—-I don’t re call exactly—at their request. Q Have you done any writing ? A Well, the usual magazine articles, things of that nature. For fun, I ’ve written operettas. Q W hat is the situation in the City of Philadelphia with regard to whether or not the schools there are segregated or integrated ? A Well, through the years, we like to believe that the schools have been integrated. When I was a boy, I went to Central High School and some of my classmates were Negro boys; they were my chums, and through the years we had said that the schools were integrated. As a matter of fact, up until perhaps twenty-five years ago, they were rather segregated because at that time there were separate schools, although a child could go to any school he wished. In more recent times, of course, there has been more inte gration, but it is far from complete. We have 275,000 students at the present time in the City of Philadelphia. Of course, the population has changed because of mobility, and in 1915, six percent of the boys and girls were Negro children; in 1967, fifty-eight percent plus happened to be; and this has caused a great change to take place. A fter the great Supreme Court decision came, it was decided to do everything possible to make integration extend further in the city. I ’m sorry to say that in 1961, the Philadelphia Chapter of the NAACP did not feel that the schools had App. 88 done all that they possibly could, and suit was brought in Federal Court before Judge Wood. He decided that every year the organization should make two reports and the school should make two reports. I saw in the paper the other night that the schools have made the reports but the association has only made one report. In 1963, Mr. Cecil Moore, Chairman of the NAACP, said that the schools had not— M r. Madison : Now, if Your Honor please— T he W itn ess : Right. Mr. Madison: —may we inquire of Mr. Davis what all this has to do with this suit, sir? It is interesting for the citizens perhaps of Philadelphia, but I see no logical connection with the case we have here to go and discuss what’s happening there, sir. It is totally irrelevant to the issues that are before the Court now, sir. T he Court: Well, I am inclined to agree, Mr. Davis. I f we had to take every city in the United States and state what is going on there and state individual views as to whether such and such a faction is operating effectively and whether the desegregation or integration program, whichever one you want to call it, is or is not successful, I fear we would be here for many, many days, and I think that you can specifically ask the good doctor specific questions as to how Philadelphia operates as contrasted or compared with Norfolk and then ask him the success or the lack of success as to that particular program, but to go into the entire setup, I don’t believe I could permit that. Mr. Davis: If Your Honor please, I, of course, had no purpose of going into the entire setup. However, it did seem to me that it would be appropriate to compare the operation App. 89 and the results of the plan for desegregation which Norfolk has with the situation in a city which has never had a segre gated system. I will be happy to do as the Court suggests and go into the specific questions. I think probably that is what Dr. W etter was leading up to. By Mr. Davis: Q Dr. W etter, are you familiar with the plan for the desegregation of the schools of the City of Norfolk? A I have studied carefully the plans that you permitted me to see. They’re the ones which have been presented through these hearings and I have talked at length with you and with Mr. Lamberth and with other members of the staff. I think I have a fairly good knowledge of what you’re doing. Q W hat is your opinion with regard to the effectiveness of this plan which the Norfolk School Board proposes? Mr. Marsh : Your Honor, I hate to interrupt, but Mr. Davis has asked Dr. W etter for an opinion question, mean ing that he is offering him as an expert. I do not believe the testimony we have heard from Dr. W etter so far estab lishes him as an expert either in the area of school desegrega tion of faculties or in the area of personnel administration, and I do not believe that we have heard enough at this point to accept Dr. W etter as an expert, and I would object to any opinion question until we can establish Dr. W etter as an expert. T he Court : Well, he’s established it as far as I am con cerned, but I think you are entirely correct. I f you would like to now cross-examine him solely as to his experience— Mr. Marsh : I want to know in what capacity— App. 90 T he Court : If he is not an expert, I do not know of any gentleman who would be who has been in the field as long as he has. I remember—it wasn’t in this case but in the Ports mouth School case— Mr. Marsh, you brought the gentleman down here. W hat was his name ? Dr. Conrad ? Mr. Marsh : You’re talking about another case now, Your Honor. T he Court: Yes. Well, I accepted him as an expert, didn’t I? Mr. Marsh : Dr. Conrad, yes, he qualified as an expert and— T he Court: Well, he didn’t have one-tenth the exper ience that this gentleman has had. Mr. Marsh : Your Honor, I am not attempting to get into the Portsmouth case now. I think, though, that D r.—- T he Court: In fact, Dr. Conrad came from Phila delphia. Mr. Marsh : No, Dr. Conrad did qualify as an expert. He had been working with personnel problems— T he Court: Well, I— Mr. Marsh : -—and his job with the association in W ash ington— Dr. W etter has not indicated any experience work ing with personnel problems. T he Court: Superintendent of the Philadelphia School System from 1955 to 1964, and then he was Assistant Superintendent and Division Superintendent and principal of four schools, you say he’s never had any personnel prob lems? App. 91 Mr. Ma rsh : Your Honor, I submit—Your Honor, I submit that there are hundreds of superintendents of cities all over the country. There are hundreds of principals who have gone up to superintendents, but they are not experts either in personnel administration or in desegregation. The fact that you have been a superintendent of schools for nine years does not qualify you as an expert in either of the areas we are concerned with here. If so, then all super intendents are experts. T he Court: The question is how expert an expert is, I suppose, is for the man who has to determine it, which, in the lower level at least, is myself. I will let you cross- examine him in due time, but let’s move along. Mr. Marsh : Well, I would like for Mr. Davis, if pos sible, Your Honor, to indicate what area is he offering Dr. W etter as an expert. I am not too clear at this point. An expert in what, sir ? Mr. Davis: I am offering him, if Your Honor please, as an expert in professional educational fields, in school administrative fields, in school personnel fields, in the field of desegregation or integration, whichever term may be desired, in any other field that is connected with the public school system. Mr. Marsh : Your Honor then I request the right to test his qualifications in those areas, if that is the way Mr. Davis is offering him. I request the right to do that at this time. T he Court: All right, you may go ahead. I think that is the usual procedure—to test it. Make it brief, Mr. Marsh. Mr. Marsh : Yes, sir. App. 92 T he Court: It is purely a question for the trial court to determine whether a person is qualified as an expert. CROSS-EXAMINATION By Mr. Marsh : Q Dr. W etter, in the area of school administration, have you—school personnel problems, have you written any books at all on this subject ? A No, sir, I have not written books. I wrote a pamphlet for the Board of Education several years ago called “For every child, the story of integration in Philadelphia.” It is not a book. It is a pamphlet about twenty pages. Q This was with respect to integration generally? A W ith respect to integration in the public schools of Philadelphia—the story. Q Now, with respect to personnel administration prob lems, are you familiar with the outstanding literature in the area in the country ? A Well, I have had occasion to use it constantly, but Pm not giving you a list of writings in this field at the present time. Q Well, would you give me any writings, sir, in this field? A I don’t see that that makes me an expert. I ’ve served with thousands of teachers and children. I saw that they got in their proper places; I worked with it day after day, and I ’m not here to give you a story on literature which I have read. Q Are you familiar with the book entitled “Staff Per sonnel in the Public Schools”— A No. App. 93 Q —written by Willard S. Elsbree ? A I know Elsbree very well, from Columbia, retired. Q Are you familiar with the book— A I ’ve known of his story. Q Are you familiar with that book, sir ? A No, sir. Q Are you familiar with the book entitled “Principles of Staff Personnel Administration in Public Schools” ? A I have not been reading this literature purposely in the last year or two. I ’m retired. Q Well, would you give me— A I ’ve worked for forty-seven years. Q Yes, sir. Would you give me any of the literature that you’ve ever read in the area of personnel administra tion? A I ’m sorry, I have no answer to give you. Q And your experience in personnel administration is as Superintendent of the Philadelphia School System? A A sa principal, as a district superintendent, who had charge of the setting of the boundaries within a district, had charge of recommending teachers that went there, had charge of rating the teachers there, had charge of seeing that organizations were set up, had charge of meeting with parents, had charge of developing integration procedure. This same thing happened as assistant to the superintendent, when I had charge of public relations, called “human rela tions” in those days, in which case I had to go out among the parents and organize them and get them working on programs such as you’ve been talking about here and also working with the newspapers and with radio and television, App. 94 doing that kind of thing, very much having to do with integration, and as associate superintendent, I had respon sibilities of this nature, too, and a superintendent can’t oper ate a school system unless he knows about integration, about how people work together in a school system. Q So you are not familiar with any of the articles in personnel admiinstration ? T he Court: Let’s have order in the court, please. Mr. Marsh, he has answered that question. Mr. Marsh : Yes, sir. By Mr. Marsh : Q W ith respect to your qualifications as an expert in the area of desegregation, sir, is your experience limited to the Philadelphia situation with respect to the school—public school desegregation ? A Did I experience what? W hat was your question, again please ? Q W ith respect to your qualifications as an expert in the area of public school desegregation, is your experience limited to the Philadelphia School System? A Yes, sir, it is. Q Are you familiar with the landmark cases in the area of public school desegregation ? A Well, I have been familiar with them and I tried to be of assistance when I went down to Washington last year. Q Are you familiar with the principles enunciated by the Supreme Court in the recent series of cases decided within the past year ? A I ’ve been reading about them in the newspapers. App. 95 Q Well, what do you understand to be the principle of the Supreme Court in the case of Bradley versus School Board of the City of Richmond, which was decided last year? A I ’m sorry, I don’t have the answer. Q W hat do you understand to be the principle enun ciated by the Supreme Court in the recent case involving— T he Court: Mr. Marsh, I do not want to interrupt you, but this gentleman is not a lawyer; he is not a Supreme Court Justice; he is not even a lowly federal judge like I am, but the fact that a man may not know what the Su preme Court says—the Supreme Court of the United States has never yet defined “integration.” Mr. Ma rsh : Your Honor, you and I might disagree on that, sir. T he Court : Beg your pardon ? Mr. Marsh : I said you and I might disagree on whether the Supreme Court has done that or not. T he Court: If you can show me the definition, I would be delighted to have it and I would be delighted to see it at any time you can show me the definition of “integration” as stated by the United States Supreme Court. I would like to see it, and I am like this witness—if the definition of “integration” appears in a Supreme Court of the United States case, then I must admit I have missed it. By Mr. Marsh : Q Well, let’s look at the Fourth Circuit decisions. Are you familiar with any of the decisions of the Supreme— of the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Cir cuit which would govern this area ? App. 96 Mr. Davis: I f Your Honor please, I am going to object now. T he Court : Objection sustained. Mr. Davis : This gentleman—sir ? T he Court : Objection sustained. By Mr. Marsh : Q Dr. W etter, are you familiar with the district court decisions which would— T he Court : Objection sustained. Q (By Mr. M arsh) Dr. W etter, do you agree with the Supreme Court decision in Brown versus Board of Educa tion? Mr. Davis: Objection. T he Court: Objection sustained. Mr. Marsh : Your Honor, if this witness is being offered as an expert in public school desegregation, I think we have a right to know if he believes in public school desegregation. T he Court: Mr. Marsh, you are not, sir. The law is what the law says it is. It doesn’t make any difference whether this witness likes it, whether I like it, whether you like it or anybody else. The law is there. M r. Marsh : Your Honor, we submit— T he Court : And it is my duty to follow the law. I have been trying to follow it for eleven years, but this witness is not responsible for it and whether he likes it or not, it is the law of the land. Go on to the next question. Mr. M arsh : Your Honor, we would like to take excep tion to the Court’s ruling. App. 97 T he Court: Yes, you take—everybody takes exception. Mr. Marsh : We submit that it makes a difference, as far as this testimony is concerned, whether he agrees with the decision or not, and we submit that we have a right to know whether this witness, who is offered as an expert in the area of public school desegregation agrees with the decision which is responsible for this. T he Court: I have ruled on that. You took exception to it. Do you have any other questions as to the gentleman’s basic qualifications as an educator and his experience in the field of education? By Mr. Marsh : Q Doctor, you mentioned the two schools that you at tended. Which degrees did you get from which schools, sir ? I don’t believe you mentioned that. A Bachelor of Science, Master of Science in Educa- cation—- Q Which school— A Temple University. Q — did you get the Bachelor of Science ? A Temple University, as to both of them. Q And what was the master’s ? A In education, Master of Science in education. Q And I believe you indicated you did not get your doctorate degree ? A No, I did everything but the dissertation. Mr. Marsh : Your Honor, we submit that this witness is not qualified as an expert in any of the areas in which he is offered, and we object to any attempt to have him offered—answer an opinion question. App. 98 T he Court: The objection is overruled. You may pro ceed, Mr. Davis. Mr. Marsh : Note our exception. REDIRECT EXAMINATION By Mr. Davis : Q Doctor, you testified that you are familiar with the plan for desegregation of the Public Schools of Nor folk as amended and as proposed by the School Board of the City of Norfolk. W hat is your opinion with regard to the effectiveness of this plan in solving the problem of desegregation of schools ? A Well, speaking in the light of my experiences through the years, I think that Norfolk has made very wonderful progress in a short time. W hat I wanted to say was that the great city, like all of the great cities, even though they have done much, nevertheless have not done any better than Norfolk has done at this time in general terms. I think what—when you have integration programs in twenty out of your schools—twenty of your schools in 1964 and twenty-six in—twenty-six out of seventy-one in 1965 and thirty-one out of seventy-one in 1966, that you’re moving ahead and moving ahead well. This is my impres sion. Prior to that time, I understand that you had a dual system and I think this indicates remarkable progress. I am talking about pupils at the present time. I think that your attendance districts have been set up exceedingly well. May I say something about how they’re set up in Phila delphia ? Q Yes, sir. A In Philadelphia, it has been the custom through the years for the district superintendent—there are eight dis App. 99 trict superintendents. Each has charge of one-eighth of the city; about thirty-five to forty thousand pupils there. This district superintendent meets with his principals and they set up the original boundaries for each elementary school, sitting there together. They do it largely in terms of numbers as they see it. They meet now and then to make changes when they think it’s necessary. They do think of integration problems. They are thinking in terms of trying to foster integration every way they can. Senior high schools and junior high schools are set up by the associate superintendent in charge of that area, with the help of district superintendents, but again it is something which extends out from a core which happens to be the school itself. It extends out, and boundaries are irregular as they are on your maps, but in those cases, you have a great many boundaries because you have many schools and you don’t have attendance areas. I think the attendance area, to my mind—and I may be wrong, sir—this is p e rso n a l- gives far more choice than the kind of attendance officer which we happen to have in the big city and that does not say Philadelphia schools are not doing a good job. They are. On the other hand, I picked up some news items just the other day. It said that in Philadelphia in 1966 there were 154 schools, with ninety percent or more of one race, either white or Negro. Of these schools, twenty-four were one hundred percent Negro, and another forty were ninety- nine percent Negro. There were twenty-three all-white and fourteen more with ninety-nine percent white. Now, I ’m trying to say that in this great city, even though they have been striving and working hard in many ways to achieve integration—and I believe in integration—-I don t think, in general terms, they have done so well as has the group here in the City of Norfolk, and I believe Norfolk is going App. 100 to move ahead. I believe that the people in charge are going to work hard. I got that impression from everyone with whom I’ve talked— “We want to do this; we want to get it through.” Q W hat is your opinion with regard to the phase of the Norfolk plan which deals with the faculties ? A Again, there has been a considerable moving ahead here. I noted from the records which you’ve had that in Norfolk you had faculty—integrated faculties in all of the four senior high schools; that you had integrated faculties in the eleven junior high schools and that in twenty-eight out of fifty-six of your elementary schools, you had inte grated faculties. Now, let me offer just a few thoughts from the other which I have gotten from records of the Board generally in the newspapers, talking about Philadelphia. In 1967, seventeen elementary schools-—of course, they have about 190—seventeen elementary schools were without a Negro teacher or staff member; in 1966, all senior—junior, senior and technical high had at least one Negro teacher; how ever, three junior highs had only one. Northeast High School, in 1967, with 3500 students, has four Negro teach ers; Lincoln High School, with 4,000, has one Negro teach er. Now, these people are proud of what they’re doing. They’re hoping to do more and more and more, but again I say that your city down here has done a great deal as I compare the smaller city with a larger city. T hat’s the only point I ’m trying to make. Q W hat experience have you had, if any, in connection with forcing a teacher, or trying to force a teacher, to go where she does not want to go ? A F irst of all, let me say how teachers are appointed in Philadelphia. May I do this ? App. 101 Q Yes, sir. A They have a difficult examination system. They have the National Teacher’s Examination which is the general intelligence, the National Teacher’s in the specific subject matter, the Philadelphia W ritten and the Philadelphia Oral, after which people appear on a list. However, a person may be appointed for a year and take the examination at the end of the year in hopes of drawing the person in. Now, in recent years, things have been so difficult, there have been so many vacancies, I am sorry to say that my beloved city in its school system has 1200 vacancies today. Because of this, they’re saying, “We won’t appoint anybody to a school which has less than three percent vacancies.” In other words, the school has to have a great many vacancies, and, there fore, they take teachers from the list and say, “These are schools with large numbers of vacancies. You can make a choice from this series of schools.” This is still done. This has been a procedure, but it was done with all schools formerly. Now, then if the teacher doesn’t make a choice, well, she’s out, that’s all. W ith regard to transfers, certain of the folk in Philadelphia said the Board of Education should have the power to assign a teacher; say, “You go here or else.” Now, we have in Philadelphia at the present time the Federation of Teachers, which is a labor movement. This is a group which has extreme power there, and they have said to the Board of Education, “You can’t force a teacher to go anywhere. It has to be voluntary.” Now, they suggest that it would be a voluntary program of getting people to transfer—people of one racial group to transfer to another racial group, and they have been working on that—a voluntary program. I t’s working, not nearly so well as I ’d like to see it, but it’s working, and they offer certain incentives in connection with that to get the people to go App. 102 down to the other schools, but it is not an easy job these days to get teachers. As I say, you have 1200 vacancies and frequently, up our way, teachers would prefer to work out in the suburbs instead of coming and carrying on the great responsibilities, and they are great and they’re very vital that you have in the great cities. Q So your experience has been, you can’t force teachers there either ? A No, sir, you can’t. If you do it in the city—the large city—they will simply say, “I ’m sorry, but I can find a job some other place.” By T he Court: Q Do the teachers in Philadelphia still have the right, I believe that they once did, to make application for a job according to the vacancies with respect to the seniority of their— A This has to do with transfers, Your Honor. Q Transfers? A Yes, sir, they’re transferred on the basis of seniority. Those in longest are the first ones to get the chance at transfer. By Mr. Davis : Q In spite of all the years in which Philadelphia has had integration, do you have any schools in Philadelphia which are attended solely by children of one race ? A Yes, we do. As I said a little while ago, there were seventeen white elementary schools and somewhere in here- we have a few schools which are virtually all-Negro chil dren. Mr. Davis: Dr. W etter, answer the questions of these gentlemen, please, sir. App. 103 T h e W i t n e s s : Right. * * * Excerpts from Transcript of Hearing on May 26,1967 [ t r . p p . 210-235] T he Court: Gentlemen, I believe that we meet here today for the purpose of the return on a notice given by Mr. Davis, counsel for the School Board, in connection with the submission of a modified plan. Is that correct? All right, Mr. Davis, do you have the modified plan that you wish to file at this time ? Mr. Davis: Yes, Your Honor. This is the modified plan. This is a certified copy of the resolution of the School Board which adopted the plan and this is a draft of an order. Copies of all of those papers have been sent to op posing counsel, along with my letter, a copy of which I sent to the Court, stating that I would appear today at two o’clock and file the modified plan and the resolution and also present to the Court, with the request that the Court enter it immediately—the order. I have, if this will be of any help to you, a copy of the plan prior to its modification, which I have marked in red, showing the actual modifications of it. I don’t know whether that would be of any help to the Court or not, but if it would be, I would certainly be happy for you to have this also. T he Court : All right, I will be glad to see it. I don’t think there is any necessity to file it. Mr. Davis: If I may, I would like to have that back— T he Court: Yes. Mr. Davis : —so I may be able to photostat it. App. 104 T he Court: Really, the first change that you have from the original plan as submitted is on page 7. Mr. Davis : I don’t remember the pages, but— T he Court: Yes. Mr. Davis : — is that where the high school children are provided for ? T he Court : Yes, senior high school. Mr. Davis : Senior; senior high school, right. T he Court: Yes. Mr. Davis: Yes, I think that’s right, if Your Honor please. Throughout there, you will find minor changes in words, such as the addition of “as modified” or “and modi fied,” in an effort to identify this plan. I am trying to keep these various plans separate now, and this one is called “The Plan of the School Board of the City of Norfolk For Desegregation of the Public Schools of the City as Amended and Modified,” and you will find frequently in there those words “and modified.” I did do one other thing, Judge. You will remember during the hearing I called to the Court’s attention the fact that the choice of school forms and the copies of the plan, according to the plan, are to be dis tributed to the children prior to May 1st. Well, obviously, that could not be done, and the Court, as I recall it, stated that it could take care of that situation in its order. T he Court: Yes. Mr. D avis: Well, I thought, possibly, if we could put that in right at the end of that plan and maybe save the trouble of another order by simply stating on, I think, next to the last page that the dates of May 1 are, for the purposes of this year, considered to be June 7th. I forget exactly what page that’s on. App. 105 T he Court : Let me ask you one thing. I know, of course, it is the policy of the School Board—it’s the longstanding policy of the School Board that children about to enter the senior high school grade, that is, the senior class of the senior high school grade or the twelfth grade— Mr. Davis: W hat the School Board calls the rising senior ? T he Court: Yes. Now, the rising seniors—there may, by reason of the adoption of the modified plan—unless there is some special provision in here to take care of this, cause a so-called rising senior to be transferred to some other school. That is not consistent with the established policy of the School Board. Mr. Davis: Judge, we put a proviso in there to take care of that. T he Court : That is what I wanted to find out. Mr. Davis: Assuming that it was proper to do so, be cause all through these hearings, I think it has been recog nized that, from an educational point of view, a rising senior, so-called, should finish the school in which he rises, there being several reasons for it. I think we have been over them before. T he Court : But that is this modified plan? Mr. Davis: Yes, sir. Let me—the provisions with respect to high school children start on page 7. T he Court : That’s correct. Mr. Davis : And over on page 8, the third line. T he Court : I see. I see now. Mr. D avis: You see one proviso. Now, that first proviso takes care of the fact that Lake Taylor Senior High School App. 106 will not have a twelfth grade for the 1967-68 school year. Following that is the second proviso which takes care of the situation or is intended to take care of the situation— and I believe it does—that we are talking about now. T he Court: And permits the so-called rising senior to graduate from the school in which— Mr. Davis : Correct. T he Court : —he is now attending. Mr. Davis: Right. It gives to the parent or guardian of the rising senior an option—■ T h e Court : Yes, I understand. M r. D avis : —to remain, right. T he Court: Yes. Now, the other matter I would like to question you about— I assume that this plan does not make any mention as to what would happen if any particu lar senior high school, by reason of the change, should be come overcrowded to the point where it could not be handled. The contention, of course, of the NAACP was to the effect that Booker T. Washington would become overcrowded, and I discussed that in my opinion, and Mr. Lamberth, the Superintendent of Schools testified with respect to it, and I think correctly pointed out that it would not become over crowded. Of course, that was in connection with a con templated plan that was rejected. Now, I assume that it is impossible at the present time to tell exactly what the effect of the so-called locking in of the senior high school areas would have on capacity. While I suspect that it would not seriously affect it, it might. W hat is your view as to what the School Board should do in the event a particular school— I don’t care whether it is Booker T. Washington or App. 107 Maury or—the only one we know that will not be over crowded is Lake Taylor. We know that that will not be overcrowded— Mr. Davis : Yes. T he Court : •—but as to the other four, the senior high schools, there is always a possibility that they would be beyond capacity. I don’t think it necessarily need be in this particular proposed plan as modified, but I think every body should be permitted to know exactly how that situa tion would be handled if it comes up. We never know whether it will come up until registration time, but then it would require very rapid action, probably not enough time for formal hearings, and so forth, and convening everybody from here to California and back, and so that I would like to know—if you wish to take a moment to con fer with Mr. Lamberth—I would like to know and get it on the record as to what policy the School Board would follow. I am not talking about any one high school. I would think the logical thing to do, if there was an overcrowded condition, would be to start taking children from the closest area to the so-called non-overcrowded school and moving from a geographical area so that what it would amount to, it might amount to a technical revision of your boundary lines in an emergent situation. For example—I have for gotten exactly where the line goes between areas IV and V, which is the Booker T. and Maury—I think it is St. Paul’s Boulevard—- M r. D avis: May I ask Mr. Lamberth? Do you re member ? Mr. Lamberth : Goes down Monticello to St. Paul, that’s right. App. 108 T he Court: Monticello, on down to St. Paul’s Boule vard. Well, let’s assume that one or the other of those schools would become overcrowded, then, I take it, that what should be done would be a temporary realignment for the emergent purpose of meeting the overcrowded condition in one school to permit the children nearest that line to be siphoned off and put into the other area, if the other area can take care of them. Mr. Davis : I would think that would be the case. T he Court : Do you wish to talk to Mr. Lamberth about that ? I just want to get the policy on it. Mr. Davis: I would like to talk to him about it, Judge— T he Court: Yes. Mr. Davis : —because that is one of the mechanical prob lems that they, of course, are far more familiar with than I am. T he Court : That is correct. And, of course, if somebody doesn’t mention it here, why, somebody else will get up in the Court of Appeals and say, “Well, the Judge didn’t mention it and nobody said anything about it,” and I would rather have it on the record. Mr. Davis : That’s right. May I do it right here ? T he Court: Yes. (Thereupon, Mr. Davis conferred with Mr. Lamberth.) Mr. Davis: If Your Honor please, by any chance would you rather hear directly from Mr. Lamberth than from me? T he Court : No, I don’t think so. If you have Mr. Lam- berth’s views, that’s all that I— App. 109 M r. Davis : All right, sir, and if I happen to state them incorrectly, he won’t be in contempt. T he Court : He will stop you, I am sure. Mr. Davis: I suspect he will. That’s good. First, if Your Honor please, let me say this—and I don’t mean in any sense to debate the question—but Mr. Lamberth tells me—and the Court may be interested to hear this— that another check of the residences of the various children has been very recently made and it now does appear that there will not be any situation of overcrowding; however, if there is, there is a provision in this plan—it’s been in this plan, oh, I guess, several years now—it starts at the bottom of page 8 and continues over on page 9. It was not put in to cover this particular situation. T he Court: That’s the administrative transfer. Mr. Davis : That’s right, the paragraph beginning, “The School Administration will make such administrative trans fers,” and so forth, on through the end of that paragraph, and I added here in this paragraph, again, for the purpose of conforming it to the other major changes or modifications which were made, beginning on the fifth line from the bot tom, the words “and provided further that the parent or guardian of any child who must be transferred from the area in which he resides to another area shall have the same choice of schools, if there is any choice.” I added the words “if there is any choice” because, of course, there is no choice for the high school children. T he Court : There is no choice for senior high schools and that’s the only reason why I raised the question. Mr. Davis: That’s right. Now, Mr. Lamberth tells me that if the schools—any one school should become over App. 110 crowded, just as the Court suggested, the School Board would endeavor to determine the children who live nearest the dividing line between the overcrowded school and the school that is not overcrowded and transfer as many of those children as might be necessary, without any re gard to race or color, with no discrimination, over to the uncrowded school. T he Court : I think that’s as fair as anybody could ex pect. Of course, these plans cannot take in every situation. We have never discussed the question of the retarded child, and so on. I assume that-—- Mr. D avis: If Your Honor please, this same administra tive transfer provision was put in the plan to take care of the retarded child. For example— T he Court : That’s right, mental or physical— Mr. Davis : Right. T h e Court : — disability. Mr. Lamberth : We exercised that. M r. Davis : And that has been used. Unfortunately, when the little child like that presents a problem, the child goes to the Department of Adjustive Services. I think you remem ber Madge Winslow, who was the head of that department. She is retired now, but it is an extremely good department and they see what ought to be done, and pursuant to this administrative transfer, they take such action as is for the best interest of the child. T he Court: Well now, the only other thing that I am interested in-—I notice that none of counsel for the NAACP are here today—Mr. Marsh, Mr. Ashe and Mr. Madison —although they received notice of this hearing. I under App. I l l stand they feel insulted, and if they do, why, I am sorry, but they still are duty-bound to be here when they are sup posed to be here. Very frankly, they registered objections to certain phases, but I am assuming, gentlemen, that the NAACP does not register an objection to the modified plan of the School Board that now restricts the senior high schools to the area in which they live, and I cannot make them personally appear. I was going to suggest that if the Civil Rights Division or the United States Attorney, through whom the Civil Rights Division acts when appear ing in court—and also I was going to suggest to Mr. Gold- blatt, who represents Oliver L. Rosso, et als—that if they desired or contemplated filing any formal objection to the plan as modified and submitted this date, they should be granted permission to do so. I have intimated that I would approve a plan of this nature, but I think that everybody should have an opportunity to present in written form formal objections to the modified plan to the same extent as though they objected to the original plan as presented. I must assume that Mr. Marsh and Mr. Madison and Mr. Ashe, while retaining their objections to other phases that were disposed of in the Court’s opinion, that they now con clude and agree that it is a perfectly constitutional plan to require the school lines of the senior high schools to be in the manner and form as submitted by this modified plan, and I am going to act under that assumption. Now, Mr. Mason, as far as the United States Attorney and the Civil Rights Division, what objections, if any, do you have to the modified plan? You registered no objections to the previous plan as submitted, but that should not de prive the United States Attorney or the Civil Rights Divi sion, which was permitted to come in through the Attorney General, to file such objections, if any, that they have. Do App. 112 you have any instructions from Mr. Ryan or Mr. Barrett as to that ? Mr. Mason : Yes, I have some instructions, Your Honor. The position of the Justice Department in this matter, as far as the order that Mr. Davis has prepared and sent us a copy of that he intends to submit, we would agree that the form—-that the order is correct as to the form of the order in relation to the Court’s memorandum that you have filed in this case. As far as the merits of the plan are con cerned, of course, we, as the Court has stated, did not object to the previous plan, but this is a little different. T he Court: Well, then, present your objections, if you will, and— Mr. Mason : Well, I have—we haven’t really had an opportunity to fully go into it and study it like we would want to to even determine, one, whether we want to object or whether—just what the situation is; just what will the effect of this plan be. T he Court: Mr. Mason, please don’t give me that. We are all human. I read where the School Board of the City of Norfolk took this action informally on a week ago last Friday, I believe. Mr. Davis: T hat’s right, last Friday, one week from today. T he Court: One week ago today, and it came out in the paper and I am sure you sent that clipping in the paper to Mr. Ryan, who is the gentleman who was here for the Civil Rights Division previously and he is the gentleman to whom he and both Mr. Barrett were personally sent a notice of intentions—of the intentions of the School Board to present this order. Now, where are they? App. 113 Mr. Mason : Your Honor, they were not—in fact, I didn’t know exactly what was going to happen today, other than he was going to present his plan and present the order, and we figured the order would be entered and there wouldn’t be any particular need— T he Court: I know what Mr. Ryan wants to do and Mr. Barrett. They want me to go ahead and enter this order and then go to the Court of Appeals and say, “Judge Hoffman never gave the Civil Rights Division an oppor tunity to object to the modified plan,” and I am giving you that opportunity today. I want to know where Messrs. Ryan and Barrett are. Mr. Mason : Well, the last time I talked with them, they were in Washington. Now, as far as the government’s posi tion in this matter is concerned, as I started to tell Your Honor, we haven’t-—-we haven’t adopted a position on the matter. We haven’t taken any— T h e Court: Well, I am not going to let you file objec tions next September. This order must be entered, and I know what you are trying to do, and the point would be a good one in the Court of Appeals, and you could get up there and say, “Well, yes, Judge Hoffman rejected that plan and we didn’t file any objections to the original plan, if the Court please, but then he went ahead and he didn’t give us an opportunity to object to the modified plan,” but I am going to stop that gap right now. You are speaking for the Attorney General of the United States, aren’t you? Mr. Mason : I believe— T h e Court : —as intervenor ? Mr. Mason : I believe that we represent the United States Attorney’s Office and the Justice Department, yes, sir. App. 114 T he Court: Well, then, tell me whether you contem plate filing any written formal objections to the modified plan. You didn’t file any objections at all to the other plan, although you joined in with the NAACP gentlemen in urging their positions, and that’s all right, but I am not going to be placed in a trap of your getting up to the Court of Appeals and having Mr. Ryan get up to the Court of Appeals and say, “Well, Judge, Judge Hoffman just went ahead and arbitrarily entered this order, approved it, never gave us an opportunity to file any objections to it,” so forth and so on, and the same—as far as Mr. Tucker and Mr. Marsh and Mr. Ashe and Mr. Madison are concerned—not so much Mr. Tucker because he didn’t participate— I strong ly suspect that there has been another marriage between the Civil Rights Division and the NAACP attorneys and that you’re laying this trap. Do I understand that the NAACP is in accord with this modified plan ? M r. Mason : Your Honor, we don’t represent the N A A CP; we don’t represent the plaintiffs. We represent the Justice Department. I don’t know what their position is and I wouldn’t prseume to speak for them. I have no idea what their views are. T he Court: Well, I want to give somebody authority to speak, but nobody will even show up in court any more. Mr. Mason : Well, I— T he Court: The United States Attorney is here— you’re here—but you cannot speak for the Civil Rights Division. You cannot speak for the Attorney General of the United States. M r. Mason : I can tell you what our position is at this point, and that is all I can do. We only—we received this— App. 115 they received coipes; I received a copy; we all got copies. As far as the Justice Department is concerned, the pro cedural posture of the case was a little odd because, of course, we did not object to what was—- T he Court : Well, if the Civil Rights Division will agree, through you, that they waive any rights to file any objec tions to this modified plan as submitted today and that Judge Hoffman has given them an opportunity—now, I agree, from a practical standpoint, my opinion said that I would approve a modified plan that incorporated substantially what has now been submitted, but I am not going to be placed in the position of having anybody go to the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit and say that Judge Hoffman acted arbitrarily; he didn’t give anybody an op portunity for a hearing on this modified plan, and so forth, and I know that is exactly what is going to come, and I assume, by the absence of the lawyers, Messrs. Marsh, Ashe and Madison—and there were many others—Mr. Greenberg from New York and several others—and Messrs. Marsh and Madison are here locally in Norfolk. I have not had the courtesy of a telephone call from them advising that they would not be here. I don’t know whether Mr. Davis has or not. Mr. Davis: N o, sir. T h e Court : You have not. M r. Davis : I have not heard from any of them, Judge. T he Court: D o you know why they are not here? M r. Mason : I have not talked with any of them myself. I have no idea why they are not here. Perhaps they—I don’t know. I shan’t speculate. But, Your Honor, may I suggest that the matter that the Court has expressed considerable App. 116 concern about perhaps could be resolved in the manner that you resolved it in connection with the plan that was previ ously submitted to which we did not object. In that instance, as I recall—and you made this apply to everyone—you gave the parties, that is, everybody except the city because it was their plan, a certain deadline within which to— T he Court: Well, Mr. Mason, when are the schools going to be opened? That’s what I want to know. This plan has to be published. The Civil Rights Division is the one that made the Norfolk City School Board go to the expense of publishing this plan annually. I have to direct that this plan be published. It does no good to publish it after the schools have opened in the fall. I just can’t keep this case forever and I want to get it on to the Court of Appeals. I have read in the paper where the NAACP is going to appeal. That is perfectly all right; they’ve got a right to appeal. But they also owe a duty and obligation to be here in connection with this case and I want this record to show that neither Mr. Leonard Ryan or Mr. St. John Barrett of the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice are here and that you have no authority to speak for them. M r. Mason : I have told you what they told me, Your Honor. I don’t think they will tell you any differently in the sense that we hadn’t adopted a position on this thing. T he Court: Well, but they previously came into court and said they had no objections to the plan as submitted. Now, I threw that plan out as unconstitutional. W hether I am right or not is of no consequence. That will be decided by the Court of Appeals, and so I called upon them for the submission of a modified plan and the Civil Rights Division has had an opportunity to file written objections to the modified plan and they haven’t done so. Now, I want to App. 117 know— I can’t set this down two weeks from now to file a modified plan or file objections, and so forth. If they are going to act, let them act. So I tell you what you do: You call Mr. Ryan or Mr. Barrett and you tell them to be here Monday morning at nine o’clock, personally. Now, there must be some action taken in connection with this case, and I know what is going on. I need not be advised. I want them here personally Monday morning at nine o’clock. Do you understand that ? M r. Mason : I will convey the Court’s message. T h e Court: They are lawyers in this case, and with all due deference to the United States Attorney’s Office, they are like associate counsel in a patent case as far as this matter is concerned. They are office boys conveying mes sages. I want the man here who can speak, and if they are going to have objections, I want them in writing submitted at nine o’clock Monday morning, and while I do not think you are under any obligation to convey any message to Messrs. Marsh, Ashe or Madison, if you wish to convey the message, you can tell them also that if they have any objections to the modified plan as this day filed and sub mitted, they will be here at nine o’clock and present those objections in writing. I cannot keep this case forever and I am not going to be placed in the proverbial trap, and I know what it is. Now, let’s hear from Mr. Goldblatt. Mr. Goldblatt : May it please— T he Court: If you have any objections that you would like to interpose, why, I would be glad to have you file them likewise. Mr. Goldblatt: Thank you, Your Honor, but I will say th is : I appeared at the School Board in behalf of my App. 118 people and was given the opportunity of speaking my views. While, of the several options you granted, Your Honor, the one I preferred was not the one that the School Board has offered you, I have had a full discussion with my clients. We feel that Your Honor has removed the inequality that we objected to and I wish to say that it is not now our inten tion to file objections to the order or any of the modifications that Your Honor has today suggested you might put in. T he Court: All right, thank you. That takes care of that, then. Now, Mr. Davis, I am going to let the modified plan be filed and the resolution of the School Board. I would be inclined to enter this order today except for what I mentioned, but the same power that exists in W ashing ton exists in other places, and I think that we should clear the decks and make these gentlemen be here who are lawyers. And did either of them appear at the School Board hearing? M r. Davis: No, sir. You mean at the meeting last Friday? T he Court: Yes. Mr. D avis: N o, sir. You are referring to Mr. Barrett and Mr. Ryan. No, they did not appear. T he Court: Or Mr. Marsh, Mr. Madison, Mr. Ashe? Mr. Davis: No, sir, there was no lawyer there who is counsel in this case except Mr. Goldblatt. Am I not right, Mr. Goldblatt ? Mr. Goldblatt : That is correct, sir. Mr. D avis : Mr. Goldblatt was the only one. T he Court: All right. Well, I am not going to worry about Mr. Ashe and Mr. Madison and Mr. Marsh, and I App. 119 am not going to convey any further message to them. I am going to continue this matter until nine o’clock on Monday morning. I think, though, Mr. Davis, in all probability the order will be entered, but I am reluctant to enter this order until these gentlemen who represent the NAACP and the Civil Rights Division are here because I know exactly what would happen. I would be criticized for not affording an opportunity to file objections to the modified plan and, of course, they may correctly state, “Well, the Judge’s opinion said that if one of these options was selected, it would be approved,” but the record does not indicate any objection to the modified plan this day submitted and this record should so indicate, and if these gentlemen feel that they have any valid reason for a further hearing in light of my opinion, I intend to give them that further hearing. If they merely want to file a written objection with the under standing that the objection be overruled for reasons assigned in the opinion and no further hearing is desired, that is perfectly all right with me, but I know how some of these things operate and, therefore, I am very hesitant to enter this order today, although the order, of course, obviously is in correct form, and I would be inclined to enter it, and I think that you could arrange to get your appropriate ar rangements ready, if you haven’t already done so. Mr. Davis : May I ask you, Judge, two questions about that, but may I confer with Mr. Lamberth just a minute, please ? T he Court: Yes. M r. Goldblatt: Your Honor, while Mr. Davis is talk ing, I don’t think, under the circumstances, I am required to be here Monday. T he Court : No, no. App. 120 Mr. Goldblatt : I served my purpose. T he Court: You stated you have no objection and you are excused. Mr. Goldblatt: Yes, sir. T h e Court : O f course, when the Court of Appeals comes around, you might be served with a notice of appeal, and I will have to let you worry about that. Mr. Davis: If Your Honor please, I mentioned a mo ment ago about the May 1 dates. Down at the bottom of page 10 of this plan—this is this very short paragraph— “Because of the present timing, the May 1 dates set forth on pages 4 and 5 hereof are changed for the current school year to June 7th.” T he Court : Yes. M r. Davis : Is that all right with the Court ? T he Court : Yes, that is perfectly all right. Mr. Davis : All right, sir. T he Court: And that is entirely reasonable, but that, again, is another matter that if this modified plan comes in, if I enter this order— M r. Davis : Yes, sir, I understand. T he Court: —and then everybody will say, “Well, Judge Hoffman didn’t give us an opportunity to file any written objection to the modified plan that was filed on May 26, 1967. He just acted on the other plan,” and I have learned the hard way that sometimes you have to be keenly aware of what other people are trying to do to you in directly, and so I will look forward with pleasure to either App. 121 seeing Mr. Barrett or Mr. Ryan, preferably Mr. Ryan, here at nine o’clock on Monday morning. Mr. Mason: Your Honor, with regard to the time, is there—I don’t know what your schedule is—is there any possibility it could be, say, like, two in the afternoon? T he Court: Well, I will have to get my book. I don’t even know whether I can hear it at nine o’clock, but I was going to push off something at nine to hear this matter be cause I think it is of importance. Mr. Davis: I f Your Honor please, while he is going for your book, you will recall that there is an order which the Court entered, providing that the publication of this plan would be made in May instead of April. That was the second order. F irst it was— T he Court: Now it will have to be extended to early June. Mr. Davis: I am not sure about that, but I wanted to ask th is : We may be able to get publication in, if the Court approves the plan on Monday—we may be able to get it in on the 31st of May. If we cannot, would the Court enter tain a further order providing for publication in June ? T he Court: Yes, indeed. Mr. Davis: All right, I will have that here, then, on Monday. T he Court: We are doing the best we can and we cannot worry about technicalities like that. M r. Davis : I understand the school system is closing on June 9th. We are so hoping that we cannot only get these choice forms—the plan and the choice forms distributed, but get these choices back from the parents by June 7th. App. 122 That is the last day, I am told, when all the students will actually be in school. June 8th is a holiday and June 9th they only go for their report cards. T he Court: Well, Mr. Mason, I will make it at 1:45, if that will be of any assistance. Mr. Mason : Thank you, Judge. Mr. Davis: Monday, what? May 29th? T he Court: Yes. T he Clerk : Yes, sir. Mr. Davis : 1 :45. Summary of Inventory of Public School System, dated October 12, 1966—School Board Exhibit No. 1 NORFOLK CITY SCHOOLS * * * * * Interdepartment Correspondence Sheet TO : Mr. E. L. Lamberth, Superintendent of Schools FRO M : Dr. John C. McLaulin, Director of Educational Research CO PIES TO : SU B JE C T : Summary of Inventory of Public School Sys tems (Federal Survey) D A TE: October 12, 1966 Pupils Of the 55,937 pupils reported in membership, 40.3% were Negro and 59.7% were white. App. 123 Five years ago, in September, 1962, the reported ratio was 35.3% Negro and 64.7% white. Of all white pupils enrolled, about 75% attend schools enrolling pupils of both races. Of all Negro pupils enrolled, about 25% attend schools enrolling pupils of both races. Of the total pupils of both races, about 55% attend schools which enroll both white and Negro pupils. Staff Among a central office staff of 137 professionals, 82% are white and 18% are Negro. A total of 2553 professionals were assigned to the schools on a scheduled basis. Of this number, 94% were full-time faculty members and 6% were assigned to work at two or more schools. Of the total professionals assigned to schools, 65% were white and 35% were Negro. Among all white professionals, 23% worked at schools where no Negro professional was assigned. Among all Negro professionals, 22% worked at schools where no white professional was assigned. Among all professionals assigned to schools, 77% worked at schools with integrated faculties. Considering full-time faculty members only, 23% of the whites taught in 17 all-white-faculty schools, and 33% of the Negroes taught in 11 all-Negro-facuity schools. SUMMARY, IN V EN TO RY OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS: FA LL 1966 U PD A TE White Negro Total Pupils: (September 20, 1966) 33,417 22,520 55,937 Attending All-White-Pupil Schools (13) 8,519 Attending All-Negro-Pupil Schools (24) 16,932 Attending Racially Integrated Schools (33) 24,898 5,588 30,486 App. 124 W h ite N e g ro T o ta l Staff:1 Central Office 112 25 137 School Full-Time 1,561 843 2,404 School Part-Time 91 58 149 Total School Staff 1,652 901 2,553 Assigned to All-White Staff Schools (17) 386.9 Assigned to All-Negro Staff Schools (8) 197.8 Assigned to Integrated Staff Schools (45) 1,265.1 703.2 1,968.3 1 Data are for the week September 26-30, 1966 Excerpts from the First Report of The School Board of the City of Norfolk for the 1966-67 School Year—School Board Exhibit No. 5 Letter of Counsel for School Board to J udge of D istrict Court dated J uly 22,1966 July 22, 1966 Honorable W alter E. Hoffman Judge of the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia U. S. Post Office and Court House Building Norfolk, Virginia R e : Leola Pearl Beckett, etc., et al, Plaintiffs, and Carlotta Mozelle Brewer, et al, and Greta Denise Miller, et al, and United States of America, Intervenors v. App. 125 The School Board of the City of Norfolk, Virginia, et al, Defendants, Dear Judge Hoffm an: The School Board of the City of Norfolk has reviewed the action which has been taken and the progress which has been made under its Plan for Desegregation of the Public Schools of the City, and on July 19, 1966 it adopted a resolution setting forth in summary form the action and progress disclosed by its review and directing that a certi fied copy of the resolution, with copies of the attachments thereto, be filed with you. Attached are a certificed copy of the resolution and copies of its attachments referred to therein. These are filed with the Court as the first report of the School Board for the 1966-67 school year. Respectfully submitted, / s / Leonard H. Davis Leonard H. Davis City Attorney Of counsel for the Defendants LH D :vcs Attachments CCs: Messrs. S. W. Tucker Henry L. Marsh, III Willard PI. Douglas, Jr. 214 East Clay Street Richmond, Virginia 23219 Victor J. Ashe 1134 Church Street Norfolk, Virginia 23510 App. 126 J. Hugo Madison 1017 Church Street Norfolk, Virginia 23510 Jack Greenberg James M. Nabrit, III 10 Columbus Circle Suite 2030 New York, New York 10019 St. John Barrett Room 1607, U. S. Department of Justice Washington 25, D. C. William T. Mason, Jr. P. O. Box 60 Norfolk, Virginia 23501 W. R. C. Cocke 1200 Maritime Tower Norfolk, Virginia 23510 Robert D. Robertson 1217 Church Street Norfolk, Virginia 23510 Vincent J. Thomas 986 Bellmore Avenue Norfolk, Virginia 23504 E. L. Lamberth 402 E. Charlotte Street Norfolk, Virginia 23510 (W ith certified copy of resolution and copies of its attachments to each) App. 127 Resolution of T he School Board of the City of N orfolk, adopted J uly 19,1966 W hereas, on March 17, 1966 The School Board of the City of Norfolk aproved and adopted the Plan Of The School Board Of The City Of Norfolk For Desegregation Of The Public Schools Of The City and the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, Nor folk Division, approved said P lan ; and W hereas, the School Board has reviewed the action which has been taken and the progress which has been made under the Plan to date, and wishes to report this action and progress to the C ourt; now, therefore, Be It R esolved by The School Board of the City of N orfolk: 1. That its review of the action which has been taken and the progress which has been made under the Plan to date discloses the following: a. The School Board and the Superintendent of Schools and his staff are carrying out the program relating to teachers and other professional personnel which is set forth on pages 1 and 2 of the Plan and which was adopted by the School Board. b. On March 23, 1966 Mr. Vincent J. Thomas, Chair man of the School Board, and Mr. E. L. Lamberth, Super intendent of Schools, appeared on a special school television program which was telecast to all teachers and other pro fessional personnel in the Norfolk City Public School Sys tem and explained the Plan and the necessity of coopera tion by the teachers and other professional personnel in the administration of the Plan. Copies of the remarks of Messrs. Thomas and Lamberth are attached hereto. Also App. 128 attached hereto is a copy of the news article pertaining to this telecast which appeared in the March 24, 1966 issue of “The Virginian-Pilot”. c. On March 23, 1966 Mr. W alter W. Brewster, Direc tor of Personnel, sent to all teachers in the System a memo randum requesting them to advise him if they were willing to teach on a factuly presently predominantly of the op posite race. Copies of this memorandum and the directive to Principals to distribute the memorandums are attached hereto. d. The Director of Personnel and his staff have re viewed the records of approximately 1,000 teachers, prin cipals and other professional personnel and have conducted interviews with approximately 300 of this personnel for the purpose of selecting those who are qualified and suitable for transfers and assignments to schools in which the majority of the faculty members are of a race different from theirs. e. The Director of Personnel and his staff are continu ing their review of records and of their interviews with teachers, principals and other professional personnel for the purpose of selecting those who are qualified and suitable for transfers and assignments to schools in which the majority of the factuly members are of a race different from theirs. f. In the summer of 1965 eight principals, thirteen teachers and the Director of Pupil Personnel attended the Biracial Counseling Institute held at Purdue University which was sponsored by the United States Office of Edu cation under the Civil Rights Act. A copy of the brochure announcing this Institute and its purpose is attached hereto. During the school year 1965-66 these 22 persons worked with their colleagues in the System carrying out the pur App. 129 poses of the institute, and in the summer of 1966 they will return to the Institute at Purdue University to report on their achievements during the 1965-66 school year and to continue their training. g. Various other teachers have attended Institutes at other Universities which were similar to the Institute held at Purdue University. h. During the summers of 1965 and 1966 the System has participated in both the Office of Economic Opportunity programs and programs under Public Law 89-10, and these programs have been used to further biracial staffing by giv ing experience to those who would help to carry out the Plan during the school years. i. The Superintendent of Schools has appeared before the Norfolk Council on Human Relations, the City-wide Council of PTA s and other civic groups and explained the Plan and urged the cooperation of the public in the adminis tration of it. The Chairman of the School Board has made similar appearances for the same purpose. j. The School Board and the Superintendent of Schools and his staff are complying with the provisions of the Plan relating to children. k. On March 31, 1966 a copy of the Plan, with copies of the maps attached, was published in “The Ledger-Star”, a newspaper having a general circulation in the City of Norfolk. A copy of this publication is attached hereto. l. Although not required by the Plan, on April 9, 1966 a copy of the Plan, with copies of the maps attached, was published in the “Journal and Guide”, a newspaper pub lished in the City of Norfolk by and having a wide circula tion among Negroes. A copy of this publication is at tached hereto. App. 130 m. Copies of the maps attached to the Plan have been placed in and are available for inspection at the office of the School Administration and at the offices of the principals of the public schools of the City. n. On April 6, 1966 a copy of the Plan, without copies of the maps attached, was distributed to every child in at tendance in the public schools of the City, for transmission to his parent or guardian. A sample of the copies distributed is attached hereto. o. Copies of the Plan, like those distributed on April 6, 1966, have been and will continue to be distributed to children, and their parents and guardians, who were not in attendance on April 6, 1966 and who thereafter were or be come in attendance or are planning to enter the System. p. On April 13, 1966 choice of school form for the 1966- 67 school year were distributed to all children, in attendance in the public schools of the City, whose parents or guardians are required by the Plan to choose a school. Subsequent to April 13, 1966 choice of school forms have been distributed to such children who were not in attendance on April 13, 1966 and distribution of such forms to all additional chil dren whose parents or guardians are required by the Plan to choose a school will continue. A sample of the type of forms distributed is attached hereto. q. As of May 26, 1966 approximately 50,000 choice of school forms for the 1966-67 school year had been dis tributed, completed, executed and returned to the School Administration. By resolution adopted on May 26, 1966, a certified copy of which is attached hereto, the School Board assigned all of the approximately 50,000 children with respect to whom these forms were executed to the schools which their parents or guardians selected. App. 131 r. All of these children and their parents or guardians have been notified of the schools which the children will attend during the 1966-67 school year. A sample of the form of notification used is attached hereto. s. All options for which the Plan provides and which have been exercised have been honored. 2. That a certified copy of this resolution, with copies of the attachments hereto, shall be filed with the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, Norfolk Division. Adopted: July 19, 1966 Ayes 5 Nays 0 Absent 2 A TR U E COPY, T E S T E : / s / N eil G. L. Boothby Neil G. L. Boothby Clerk of The School Board of the City of Norfolk [seal] Remarks of V incent J. T homas, Chairman of T he School Board, on T elevision to all T eachers and other P rofessional P ersonnel, March 23, 1966. I am privileged to be able to take the opportunity of talk ing to you today on behalf of the Norfolk School Board on the new desegregation plan which was adopted by the board at its meeting on March 17 which was approved by the representatives of the Negro plaintiffs and the attorneys of the United States Department of Justice, and ordered by the judge of the District Court. App. 132 While this plan further refines and expands the already existing Freedom of Choice plan for pupil assignment, it also contains for the first time policies governing the de segregation of our faculty and staff, and it is about these new policies that Mr. Lamberth and I wish to speak to you today. The preamble to the new plan states the following: “The School Board of the City of Norfolk recog nizes its responsibility to employ, assign, promote, and discharge teachers and other professional personnel of the Norfolk City Public School System without regard to race or color. It further recognizes its obligation to take all reasonable steps to eliminate existing' racial segregation of faculty that has resulted from the past operation of a dual school system based upon race or color.” It is the intent of the School Board and the administration to implement this policy promptly and with all good faith, and in order to do so successfully we need and must have your help and your cooperation. While this forward step will certainly pose new challenges to all of you it also carries with it the seeds of an opportunity to better our sys tem for the ultimate benefit of all of our children, and it has been the experience of this School Board and of other Norfolk School Boards that our teachers have not and will not shrink from a new challenge. The success or failure of these new policies rests squarely with you of the professional staff of the system. The School Board and the citizens of Norfolk are confident that you as always will do your part. The future of education for our children demands that we succeed. App. 133 And now Mr. Lamberth will give you some information a little more in detail about how it is proposed that these new policies be implemented. Remarks o f Superintendent of Schools E. L. Lam berth t o all T eachers via E ducational T ele vision, March 23, 1966. The purpose of this program today, as Mr. Thomas has stated, is to talk with you about the Plan for the Desegrega tion of the Norfolk Public Schools signed by the Federal District Judge on last Thursday and agreed upon by repre sentatives of the School Board, of the plaintiffs in the court case, and of the Justice Department of the United States of America. As stated in the plan, copies will be available to send to the homes of pupils and will be kept available in the school buildings. It was impossible to make them available to you today, before the first printing is completed. Therefore, it was essential that you be called together to hear this explanation of the plan so that you could answer questions both now and as you distribute copies of the plan later. It is true, I believe, that, even as the success of our in structional program depends largely upon your work as individual teachers, so the administration of this plan and how well it serves our community will be up to the teachers and the principals. This plan has two major divisions. The first division is entitled Teachers and other Professional Personnel and the second, Children. The greatest difference between this plan and any other under which we have operated is that it does deal with em ploying, assigning, promoting, and discharging teachers. App. 134 In everyday language the section dealing with professional personnel states three major principles. These principles provide: First, that the School Board of the City of Norfolk will employ, assign, promote, and discharge professional personnel solely on the basis of qualifications and without regard to race or color. Having known of our evaluation procedures in the past, I am sure you have no concern about dismissals except for the unqualified teacher. Second, that the Superintendent and his staff are to take affirmative steps to have both presently employed profes sional personnel as well as new teachers, who are qualified and suitable, accept positions in situations where their ac ceptance will diminish the racial imbalance now existing in faculty assignment. In this particularly we must have your help or it can never be done properly. Three times the plan emphasizes “qualified and suitable.” In determining this with your help the Personnel Depart ment under Mr. Brewster and Dr. Ray will be both profes sional and free of prejudice. In helping them to do it, you must be no less. Third, we must inform prospective teachers of the plan and of our non-racial personnel policies. This is being done at the present time. Soon, and certainly by January 1, 1967, all new appli cants seeking positions will be required to present the results of the National Teachers Examination. In so far as pos sible, positions will be filled by those who present this score as part of their proof of competence to teach. They will not be required of any presently employed. No one, now employed, who is competent in his assign ment need be anxious or concerned. App. 135 However, our evaluation procedures, which have greatly improved in recent years, must continue to improve. New objective measures of competence must be employed and subjective rating must be more and more skillfully used with complete fairness. In the section dealing with children, the change provides more schools for parents to choose for their child. Just as before, choices are made by parents, except that now more parents choose, since more schools are grouped with others in larger areas than before. As the rules, which each principal and teacher must fol low to administer this plan, are distributed to you, special care must be taken that they are followed. Your compe tence will be tested by the accuracy with which you follow, without exception, the instructions you receive. In the past some of us have handled choice forms very haphazardly. This must end immediately. As Mr. Thomas has said, we can count on professionals to do this job and to want to be judged by their qualifica tions only. If there are those among you who are concerned about our competing for teaching talent under this plan, may I re assure you by relating what has been told us—that other school systems will be operating under similar plans devised in cooperation with Federal agencies. Currently, press re leases are indicating the truth of this. Already, the Personnel Department is seking to fill va cancies and arrange transfers where quality can be main tained and teachers are “qualified and suitable.” More than ever you must cooperate with our personnel staff and as far as possible have your personal preferences contribute to the welfare of the entire school system. May I emphasize again that this plan reserves to the ad App. 136 ministration and the School Board the determination of who is “qualified and suitable” to fill a particular position. More than ever each assignment will be carefully studied and each will be made on an educational basis. As I have often said, many of our professional personnel are very competent, very adequate in one assignment, where as, the same person might not be suitable at all in any other school or another class. In the future as in the past all these factors will be taken into consideration before any as signment is made. I know that any plan such as this receives mixed reac tions from both school people and the general public. One of your most important tasks is to see that your comments and reactions help rather than hinder the efforts being made to “get on with our plans for more quality education for every child.” [ l i L Y 13/ X , W ILLO W TERBACE* OCÊM NAVAL BASE b Lessees' P-2B-4-t-RARK—rSEWELLS | 3 POINT f, ROOSEVELT % BARDENS,NORTH CHI .o ako .a l e f a r m s CORNER iHORE WORE'ROSEMONT CHESAPEAKE l ^ manok- 1 MUNICIPAL AIRPORT ED6EWATER - L ARCHMONT NORVIEW 45 ' COLLEGE PAkK + Pt-ACE LAMBERTS POINT LAKE TAYLOR 86 CROWN POINT LAKE Sk Terrace m a p l e h a l l -HOLLYWOOD IJANAB ■ SHopptNe center poplar NALLS I f « 4 >A\ KEMPSVILib r a m b l e t o n PLANNING AREAS AND PLANNING DISTRICTS 1! CITY OF NORFOLK VIRGINIA LEGEND — — PLANNING AREA BOUNDARIES 1-09 COMMERCIAL AREA NUMBERS 10-19 INDUSTRIAL AREA NUMBERS 20-29 SPECIAL AREA NUMBERS 30-99 RESIDENTIAL AREA NUMBERS -------- PLANNING DISTRICT BOUNDARIES II PLANNING DISTRICT NUMBERS m . V 4 , : .■ ■ '■ ■ :' DEPA RT MENT OF N O R F O L K CITY P L A NN I NG V I R G I N I A