Brewer v. School Board of the City of Norfolk, Virginia Appendix of Appellees

    APPENDIX OF APPELLEES

United States Court of Appeals
FOR THE FOURTH CIRCUIT

No. 11,782

CARLOTTA M OZELLE BREW ER, et a l „
Appellants,

v.

T H E  SCHOOL BOARD OF T H E  CITY OF 
NORFOLK, V IRG IN IA , et a l „

Appellees.

Appeal from the United States District Court for the 
Eastern District of Virginia, Norfolk Division

Leonard H. Davis 
City Attorney 
908 City Hall 
Norfolk, Virginia 23501 

Counsel for Appellees



TABLE OF CONTENTS
Page

Order Granting Motion of United States of America to Intervene, 
filed February 23, 1966.............................................................. 1

Response of the United States to the Proposed Order of the De­
fendants, filed M'ay 29, 1967 .................................................... 1

Excerpts from Transcript of Trial Proceedings on April 17, 1967 2

Witnesses:
Walter W. Brewster ...................-.......................................  2
Edwin L. Lamberth ................... ...... ................... .............  14-

Colloquy between the Court and Counsel for School Board .... 51

Witnesses:
John C. McLaulin ...................................  56
Vincent J. Thomas .............................................................. 65
Allen H. Wetter .................................. -.............................. 85

Excerpts from Transcript of Hearing on May 26, 1967 .............. 103
Summary of Inventory of Public School System, dated October 

12, 1966—School Board Exhibit No. 1 .............................. .....  122
Excerpts from the First Report of The School Board of the City 

of Norfolk for the 1966-67 School Year—School Board 
Exhibit No. 5 ............................................................... ..... .... - 124
Letter of Counsel for School Board to Judge of District Court 

dated July 22, 1966 ............................ ................................. 124
Resolution of The School Board of the City of Norfolk, 

adopted July 19, 1966 ..... .............. ........ ...... .......... -........ -  127
Remarks of Vincent J. Thomas, Chairman of The School 

Board, on Television to all Teachers and other Professional 
Personnel, March 23, 1966 ............................................-....  131

Remarks of Superintendent of Schools E. L. Lamberth to 
all Teachers via Educational Television, March 23, 1966 133

Map of Planning Areas and Planning Districts, City of Norfolk, 
Virginia—School Board Exhibit No. 4 .............................. .....  137



Order Granting Motion of United States of America to 
Intervene, Filed February 23, 1966

The United States having moved this Court to intervene 
as plaintiff in this action pursuant to 42 U.S.C. 2000h-2 
and upon no parties entering objections thereto, it is

Ordered that the motion of the United States to inter­
vene as plaintiff in this action is hereby granted.

United States District Judge

Norfolk, Virginia 
F e b r u a r y 1966.

Counsel for Plaintiff-Intervenor 

Counsel for Defendants

Response of the United States to the Proposed Order of the 
Defendants, Filed May 29,1967

The United States of America, Plaintiff-Intervenor, in 
response to the proposed order submitted to the Court on 
May 26, 1967, by the defendants, including the defendant 
School Board of the City of Norfolk, states:

1. The United States approves of the form of the order 
as being responsive to and in accordance with the directions 
of this Court set forth in its memorandum opinion of May 
12, 1967.

2. The United States will file no objection to the de­
fendants implementing and proceeding under the plan of



desegregation attached to said order for the 1967-68 school 
year.

App. 2

Respectfully submitted,

St. J ohn Barrett, Attorney 
Department of Justice

Leonard E. R yan, Attorney 
Department of Justice

W illiam  T. Mason, J r.
Assistant United States Attorney

Excerpts from Transcript of Trial Proceedings on April 17, 1967 

[tr. pp . 69-84]

Walter W. Brewster

the witness on the stand at the recess, resumed the stand 
and testified further as follows:

T he Court: Mr. Ryan or Mr. Mason, would you gentle­
men have any questions that you would like to ask this 
witness ?

Mr. Ry a n : If I may, Your Honor, just a few ques­
tions.

T he Court : All right.

cross-examination

By Mr. Ryan :
Q Mr. Brewster, in March of 1966, you held your 

present position; is that correct ?
A Yes.

Q And did y°u, in March of 1966, and in the months 
prior to that, take part yourself in discussions and confer­



App. 3

ences that led to the adoption of the plan of the School 
Board for desegregation of the schools ?

A Yes, I believe I did.

Q Well, let me narrow the question a little bit. Were 
you consulted and did you take part in some of the dis­
cussion relative to teachers and faculties and staff ?

A Yes, that would be after this court hearing was 
called—yes—in February, after, yes.

Q I am referring to the time—
A I am trying to get the time sequence. You said in 

March.

Q Well, my point of reference was the date that the 
plan was entered by the Court. That was my point of ref­
ence then.

A That was in March.

Q And prior thereto—
A  Yes.

Q —my question is, did you, in your capacity—■
A Yes, Mr. Ryan.

Q —take part in the discussions that led to this ?
A I did.

Q Since that time, Mr. Brewster, have you and, to 
your knowledge, have others in the school system followed 
the procedures outlined in this plan for desegregation of 
the Norfolk schools?

A Yes.

Q And did you do so with respect to hiring and re­
cruiting and assigning of faculty during the current school 
year, that is, the school year 1966-1967?



App. 4

A Yes.

Q So would it be fair to say, then that you had a cer­
tain measure of responsibility for implementing this plan 
with respect to those provisions that relate to teachers and 
professional personnel ?

A Yes.

Q In following the procedures that are outlined in the 
plan for desegregation of the Norfolk schools, did you 
find—was it your experience that the various provisions 
with respect to teachers and other professional personnel— 
that they operated satisfactorily in practice ?

A Yes, within the limitations of—as I mentioned be­
fore, of dealing with—

Q Yes, I understand that.
A —individuals, yes.

Q And in following these procedures, a certain amount 
of desegregation of the teachers and other professional 
personnel occurred; is that correct ?

A Yes, sir.

Q Has this desegregation of the faculty occurred in 
a manner that is consistent with maintaining the standards 
of the Norfolk school system?

A Yes, within the limitations of the people available 
to us.

Q By that, you’re referring to the members of your 
faculty and staff ?

A The people who present themselves for employment.

Q And when you speak of those limitations, you’re 
speaking of limitations with respect to their qualifications ?

A Competition, their qualifications, et cetera.



App. 5

Q Has your implementation of these provisions re­
lating to teachers produced good educational results ?

A I hope so.

Q Well, has it been your experience as Director of 
Personnel that it has produced good educational results 
to the extent that you, as Director of Personnel—

A I can answer—

Q —would know that ?
A —to the extent that I know directly in any other 

case. One year of experience is not a great deal upon which 
to measure any person teaching children. It takes some 
time to actually see the results, but I have, myself, not 
heard any radical—“radical” isn't a good word—but any 
real outspoken complaints. On that basis, I would assume 
that the desegregation of faculties which we experienced 
this year has not materially hurt our educational program. 
I would have to answer you this way: If  you ask me about 
any particular group of white teachers that we employed 
for the first time and put in formerly all-white faculties 
or any particular group of Negro teachers that we em­
ployed and put in formerly all-Negro faculties—what I ’m 
saying is, Mr. Ryan, just now do I begin to see results 
of the teaching I did almost twenty years ago, because I 
see young people whom I taught and I see what they have 
become. I don’t know whether it was my influence or some 
other teacher’s, but it takes a while to actually see the re­
sults of teaching—

Q Well—
A —when you’re not closely—you see, I don’t follow 

these people day to day like their supervisors.

Mr. Ry a n : I have no further questions at this time.



App, 6

T he  Court: Mr. Goldblatt.

Mr. Goldblatt: No, sir, Your Honor, no questions.

T he  Court : Mr. Davis.

cross examination

By Mr. Davis :
Q Mr. Brewster, for the purpose of the record, will 

you review what your experience has been in the Public 
School System of Norfolk? I ask that question because, 
as the record now stands, it seems that possibly you may 
have just come into the system as of January 1, 1966, and, 
of course, I know that that is not correct, but I would like 
for the record to show it. So would you go back and tell 
us, for instance, what schools you attended, what your de­
grees are, and trace your history on up to the present, 
please, sir?

A My undergraduate degree was earned at Arkansas 
A. & M. College in Monticello, Arkansas. Subsequent to 
two years of teaching, I served four years in the armed 
services during world W ar II. I came to Norfolk in Au­
gust of 1949 directly from the Horton School of the Uni­
versity of Pennsylvania, where I earned my master’s de­
gree in business administration. I taught my first year at 
Maury High School, taught distributive education because 
I was employed to fill the position of a teacher who was 
on leave. I was reassigned the next year to Granby High 
School. I taught distributive education there for, I be­
lieve, two years, and then was reassigned to the social 
studies department and I taught history and government, 
geography, and along the way somewhere, some mathema­
tics. In 1954, upon the death of Miss Leah Halla, who was 
Clerk of the School Board, I was reassigned to the super­



A pp .7

intendent’s office as an administrative assistant to the 
superintendent and Clerk of the School Board. In that 
position, it was my responsibility to handle such teacher 
affairs as records, certification, contracts and retire­
ment. In November, I believe, of 1960, I was reassigned by 
Mr. Lamberth, after he became Superintendent, to the 
personnel department as Associate Director of Personnel, 
where I have been ever since.

Q So you have been dealing directly with personnel 
since 1960?

A Yes, sir.

Q I understood you to say, Mr. Brewster, when Mr. 
Marsh was asking you if you had any numerical goal, that 
you did not have any numerical goal, but I did understand 
you to say that it was your intention to integrate the 
faculties in the Norfolk Public School System as quickly as 
you could, consistent with putting into the faculties quali­
fied and suitable teachers. Did I understand you correctly?

A Yes. I don’t know that those are my exact words, 
but that was—

Q That was the sense of it ?
A Yes.

Q So while you do not have a numerical goal, that is, 
a goal of one year, two years—

Mr. Marsh : Your Honor—

Q (By Mr. Davis)—or five years, you do have a goal? 
That is what I was trying to develop.

A Yes, in the sense that I am under obligation to in­
tegrate the faculties.



App. 8

Q Tell me, Mr. Brewster, do you find any resistance 
among your teachers to this business of integrating the 
faculties ?

A Yes.

Q Does it come from white teachers ?
A Yes.

Q Does it come from Negro teachers ?
A  Yes.

Q Do you have any problems recruiting teachers these 
days?

A Yes.

Q Does the fact that Norfolk is committed to the in­
tegration of its faculties play any part in those problems?

Mr. Marsh : Your Honor, I hate to interrupt Mr. 
Davis, but it is his witness and I think it’s certainly an 
employee of the School Board. I have accepted the leading 
up to this point, but I think that, in fairness, the witness 
should supply the information to go into the record, not the 
attorney, and we seriously object to this long line of leading 
questions from Mr. Davis.

Mr. Davis: If Your Honor please, I understood Mr. 
Brewster was the plaintiff’s witness. They called him.

Mr. Marsh : Mr. Brewster is an employee of the School 
Board and we object to these leading questions.

T he Court: Well, ordinarily, I ’d say, Mr. Marsh, that 
you are totally wrong, but I do believe that in this case 
Mr. Brewster is in the capacity of being a managing officer 
of the personnel problem and, therefore, he could properly 
be called as an adverse witness. He was not called as an



App. 9

adverse witness. Mr. Marsh just put him on the stand, and 
until he is called as an adverse witness, he quite properly 
becomes the witness of the party who called him who 
vouches for his integrity and for the truthfulness of the 
question. Now, I do think, however—of course, everybody 
employed by the Norfolk City School Board is not an ad­
verse witness, if that is what you are trying to convince 
me of, Mr. Marsh. You know that that is not correct, 
don’t you ?

Mr. Marsh : No, I am objecting to Mr. Davis testify­
ing rather than Mr. Brewster.

T he Court: Well, I say, do you think that everybody 
who works for the Norfolk City School Board is an ad­
verse witness ?

Mr. Marsh : No, but I do not think that is the issue 
at the present time.

T he Court: Well, but the issue is, who put this wit­
ness on the stand and for what purpose ?

Mr. Marsh : Your Honor, I am sure that Mr. Davis 
can phrase his questions in a way to elicit information 
from Mr. Brewster.

T he Court: I know he can, but he has a right to 
cross-examine a witness who is put on by another party. 
That is just a fundamental rule of law. Now, I quite 
agree, had you called Mr. Brewster as an adverse witness 
perhaps by reason of his being director of Personnel, he 
could be considered the so-called manager in charge of all 
personnel problems, and to the extent of interrogation on 
the faculty setup, it would perhaps have been proper for 
you to call him as an adverse witness. You did not do it. 
But, anyway, Mr. Davis, try to refrain from the leading



App. 10

questions, if you will. I just want the record to be per­
fectly clear that everybody that is employed by the Norfolk 
City School Board cannot be considered as adverse. When 
you gentlemen put on someone as a witness, you vouch 
for his integrity and the truthfulness of his answers, and 
I take it you have no dispute with the answers of Mr. 
Brewster along that line.

By Mr. Davis :
Q Do you do any recruiting of teachers, Mr. Brew­

ster?
A Yes.

Q Do you have any problems with regard to recruit­
ing of teachers ?

A Yes.

Q Could you tell us what those problems are ?
A Well, there are several and most of them could be 

lumped under the heading of “competition” in this sense: 
Teachers must —and I mean no disrespect to the indi­
viduals—but teachers must be considered like a commodity 
in that we go into a market to seek them and try to at­
tract the best that we can. In doing so, we must compete 
against other areas that might be attractive geographically 
and we must compete against salaries offered by other 
areas. I believe that this past year that we did experience 
difficulty in attracting p e o p l e  because of our publicity 
which we got concerning the integration of our faculties. 
You see, one of our great competitors is our neighbor, 
Virginia Beach, which carries with it a lot of glamour, 
and also Virginia Beach has not been required to integrate 
their faculties to the extent—to any extent whatsoever. 
This puts us in a less than desirable competitive position 
from that particular point of view.



App. 11

Q Can you tell us what the extent of the integration 
of faculties for this year was? Do you have those figures 
either in your head or with you, by any chance ?

A The number of teachers involved—

Q Yes.
A —is that what you are asking ?

Q Yes, the number of schools involved.

Mr. Davis: If Your Honor please, we have an ex­
hibit that has already been filed, which I will ask the 
Court to actually mark as an exhibit later on, but I 
thought, while Mr. Brewster was on the stand, that pos­
sibly, if he could, he could testify to this and we would 
have the information afresh.

T he Court : I believe it is in the report.

Mr. Davis : It is in the report, yes, sir.

T he Court: If  you wish it read into the record, suppose 
you give it to Mr. Brewster. He can read it in. There is 
no sense of him approximating it—

Mr. Davis : All right, sir.

T he  Court: —when he has the exact figures, and I 
don’t imagine he has it in his mind. I think it is right 
here, Mr. Davis. I assume that this is what you have ref­
erence to.

Mr. Davis: If Your Honor please, it is in an attach­
ment to the Second Report of the Board for this year.

T he Court : I think Mr. Brewster has it.

By Mr. Davis :
Q Is that what you have, Mr. Brewster? Is your top 

page—



App. 12

A April 13, ’67? No, that’s—exception—

Q Is your top page marked “Second Report of the 
School Board of the City of Norfolk for the 1966-67 
school year” ?

A Yes.

Q Look under that, please, sir, and see if there is a 
resolution directly under that.

A Signed by Leonard Davis ?

Q No, sir, signed by Mr. Boothby, the Clerk of the 
School Board.

A Page 2, “Motion of the School Board of the City 
of Norfolk for leave to file and for approval,” et cetera?

Q No, it is not that one.

Mr. Davis: If Your Honor please, may I find it?

T he Court: Yes, indeed. Go up there and find it I 
thought I had it.

T he W itn ess: “Resolution of the School Board of the 
City of Norfolk.”

By Mr. Davis:
Q Here it is. Mr. Brewster, you are now looking 

at page 2, as I understand it, of a resolution adopted by 
the School Board on March 28, 1967, which is a resolution 
which reviews the action which has been taken under the 
plan, and on page 2, there is a subparagraph lettered little 
“d”, and I would ask you, if you will, to read that into 
the record, please, sir.

A “On September 6, 1966 when the schools opened 
for the 1966-67 school year:

“ (1) The faculties in all of the System’s 4 high 
schools were integrated;



App. 13

“ (2)  The faculties in all of the Systems’ 11 junior 
high schools were integrated ;

“ (3) The faculties in 28 of the System’s 56 elemen­
tary schools were integrated;

“ (4) The extent of integration in the faculties was 
as follows— ”—do you want me to read—

Mr. Davis: If  Your Honor please, I do not know that 
it is necessary to read that since we are going to put it in­
to the record.

Q (By Mr. Davis) But may I ask, Mr. Brewster, if 
the contents of this resolution, including the figures and 
statements, are correct?

A Yes.

Mr. Davis: I do not have any other questions of Mr. 
Brewster. Thank you, sir.

T he Court: I take it you wish to be considered as a 
part of this record that report that you filed. I think it is 
in the record already automatically.

Mr. Davis: If Your Honor please, at the appropriate 
time, I was going to ask the Court to review all of the var­
ious papers which the School Board has filed in its two 
reports and an attachment to its motion and identify all of 
them as exhibits.

T he  Court: I take it there will be no objection to that.

Mr. Davis: I wouldn’t think so. And this would be 
one of them.

T he  Court : All right Mr. Marsh.

Mr. Marsh : Your Honor, at the same time while we 
are talking about exhibits—we have no more questions 
of Mr. Brewster.



App. 14

T he  Court: Thank you Mr. Brewster, and I take it
Mr. Brewster may be excused.

* * *
[tr . p p . 85-86]

Edwin L. Lamberth

called as a witness by the plaintiffs, having been first duly 
sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

*  *  *

By Mr. Marsh :
Q Mr. Lamberth, I think it is in the record, but to be 

sure, how long have you been Superintendent of the Nor­
folk School System ?

A Since July 1, 1960.

Q And I believe you have been involved in the various 
court actions and adjustments and orders and agreed 
plans that have been in use in this case over the last five 
or six years ?

A I have.
* * *

[tr. p p . 131-133]
By T he Court:

Q W hat choices are available to those in Senior High 
IV area?

A Senior High IV may choose Booker T. Washington, 
Lake Taylor, Norview and Granby—senior high school
students.

Q And those living the other areas, Senior High I, II, 
II I  and V have no other choices except the particular high 
school in their area ?

A That’s right.



App. 15

Q Well now, you tell me why in the world students 
living in Senior High IV are apparently given four choices 
and the others are given none, except the one that they’re 
locked-in on ?

A I can give you a layman’s school superintendent’s 
answer. I don’t know whether it’s legally correct, but my 
understanding is that, legally, we’re required to desegregate 
the schools, and that the only choice for a great portion of 
the Negro population which lives in Senior High IV to 
ever achieve desegregation is to have this choice, whereas—

Q Well, it’s a racial plan.
A Well, in that respect, it certainly is; it certainly is.

ijs sfc

Q Well, why don’t you let the children living in Senior 
High IV also elect to go to Maury, which is located in 
Senior High V, I believe ?

A Well, our plan recites that, I think, or maybe it’s the 
report. I don’t remember which. In the course of our dis­
cussions with Mr. Ryan and Mr. Marsh and all of us who 
have been conferring, it was brought out that neither party 
to the discussion wished, when we were desegregating, to 
resegregate.

iff jK

[tr. p p . 139-189]
Q Now, do you feel that this site will facilitate the de­

segregation of Booker T. better than some other site 
closer to the Lake Taylor side of town?

A I don’t think you could put it anywhere to serve the 
2,000 children who live there that would desegregate it.

Q I don’t think you follow my question.
A Yes, I did.



App. 16

Q I will repeat it. Do you feel that the site where 
Booker T. is now and where it will be built again, ac­
cording to your plan, would better facilitate the desegrega­
tion of Booker T. as compared with a site closer to the 
Lake Taylor area ?

A I don’t think either would facilitate its desegrega­
tion.

Q But I want you to compare the two, the site you 
have selected—

A They’re equal; they’re equal.

Q You don’t think it would make any difference—
A  Wouldn’t make a bit of difference.

Q —whether Booker T. would be over closer to the line 
between Lake Taylor and Booker T. ?

A Wouldn’t make a bit of difference; wouldn’t make 
a bit of difference.

Q In fixing the site for Booker T._, did you pick the 
site that, in the opinion of the School Board, would pro­
mote integration of Booker T. ?

A We picked the site that would serve the children 
who have to go to it.

Q Did you consider the effect of the site on the dese­
gregation of Booker T. ?

A No, we picked it to serve the children. We don’t 
pick sites—as I say, the only way-—-the ultimate aim of 
your suggestion, Mr. Marsh, is that all the schools be at 
one point.

Q Well, my suggestion isn’t important, sir. W e’re 
trying to get—

A Well, that’s what you’re saying.



App. 17

Q W e’re trying to get yours.
A If you pick sites to promote integration, you put 

all five together in one spot and everybody comes there.

Q Well, did you consider the racial consequences of 
your site ? Did you—

A We knew what the racial consequences were, but we 
know that there are 2,000 children in that smallest school 
area in the city and they have to be served or they have to 
ride buses and pay a quarter a day.

Q So you did not—my question was, did you pick a 
site which would promote the integration of the school, in 
the opinion of the School Board, or did you pick a site 
that would serve the physical convenience of the pupils?

A I picked one that would serve the children who live 
in that part of the city, that’s right. I don’t know whether 
it’s physical or not, but academic, too, I hope.

Q But you didn’t attempt to pick a site that would 
promote the desegregation of Booker T. ?

A There isn’t any site available that would do it.

Q No, I ’m just asking what the School Board intended.
A No, we did not, but there is no such site. I want to 

get that in the record. You could move Booker T. to Ocean 
View and send the same pupils to it who are now attending 
it and it wouldn’t promote desegregation.

Q Do you feel that the—I believe you have said this, 
but I want to be sure—do you agree that the location of a 
school has a lot to do with the racial character of it, along 
with the faculty and other—

A If you mean by the location the housing that sur­
rounds it. W hat actually determines the nature of a school



App. 18

—you talk about race—is the housing pattern that’s 
around it. That’s what determines the nature of a school 
racially. People like to go to school where they live gener­
ally. I don’t know of many people who don’t of either race.

Q So you don’t have any plans, then, I take it, to pro­
mote the desegregation of Booker T. or to change it?

A Yes, we’re going to desegregate the faculty and 
build a new building and improve the school just as much 
as we can.

T h e  Court: Haven’t we been over this, Mr. Marsh? 
The short answer is that they are not going to move the 
present location-—the contemplated location of Booker T. 
Washington unless Judge Hoffman orders it, and when I 
order it, I ’m going to be off the Bench. So let’s go on with 
the next order of business.

By Mr. Marsh :
Q I notice, Mr. Lamberth, that the plan presented by 

the School Board did not mention the construction of a 
new school.

A Of the new Booker T. Washington School ?

Q Yes, sir.
A Well, we do not see how it would be humanly pos­

sible to have it ready to operate under this year’s plan. 
The plans—

Q No, but you anticipate that at some future date the 
Booker T. Washington School will be operational and 
would be in use by the Norfolk School System ?

A But that wouldn’t change the plan because it’s in 
the redevelopment section which the present school is lo­
cated. I don’t see how that would change the plan—just 
to transfer from one building to another on the same site, 
practically.



Q Well, I think the plan speaks for itself on that. 

By T he  Court:
Q Mr. Lamberth, in the determination of this Booker 

T. Washington—and I know nothing about it except what 
I read in the paper, and I ’ve always gotten suspicious about 
what I read in the paper—what—if I recall correctly, 
there was a large group of prominent Negro citizens that 
worked with the School Board over a period of many, many 
months, didn’t they, on this ?

A Yes, sir, there was a committee formed of several 
hundred people, I expect, and they had an executive com­
mittee, Your Honor, called—the committee was called 
“The Better Booker T. Washington Committee,” and I 
have met off and on with them for more than three years, 
I think.

Q Well, has that executive committee now come back 
to the School Board and said, “We don’t want this in this 
location” ?

A No, sir, the matter of this came up— first time I 
heard it was at the conferences with Mr. Marsh and these 
gentlemen who are here today, and, in fact, the first one 
I heard mention it was Mr. Barrett. He isn’t here today.

Q Well, what did he say about it?

Mr. Ma rsh : Your Honor, I don’t mean to object—
A He asked the same questions that Mr. Marsh has 

asked today.

Mr. Marsh : Excuse me, Your Honor. I don’t mean to 
object to a question by the Court, but I do think that it 
would be hearsay for Mr. Lamberth to testify as to what 
Mr. Barrett said.

T he  Court: W hat’s hearsay about it? Mr. Barrett is

App. 19



App. 20

an officer of this Court and he’s invited to come here. 
He sent Mr. Ryan today, but-—-

Mr. Marsh : Certainly, Mr. Barrett could give his opin­
ion.

T he Court: Well, I would like to know what the situ­
ation is. W hat I cannot understand—there has been a 
threat of some money somewhere-—cut off of funds on the 
urban renewal plan that contemplates this very thing, and 
if St. John Barrett is responsible for it, I want to know—

Mr. Marsh : Your Honor—

T he  Court: —if Mr. Ryan is responsible for it, I 
want to know; if you’re responsible for it, I want to know, 
because—•

Mr. Marsh : Your Honor, I appreciate your concern, but 
I submit that this has nothing to do with the issues in 
this litigation.

T he  Court: Well, of course, the short answer to your 
point is that no federal judge can substitute himself as a 
judge for determination of where a school is going to go in 
place of the Norfolk City School Board and a committee 
-—a large committee of prominent Negro citizens whose 
very health and welfare is at stake, and just because you, 
Mr. Marsh, and some of these other gentlemen—and I 
will include Mr. Ryan and Mr. Barrett, although they 
have not objected, I understand—but you gentlemen want 
this school located in another place for one purpose. You 
think that it might tend to serve to promote the integra­
tion. You pay no attention to the rights and welfare of the 
children except from one standpoint—integration.

Mr. Marsh : Your Honor, we are not attempting—



App. 21

T he  Court : But those children—

Mr. Ma rsh : We are not attempting to argue the case 
now, but I want the record to show our objection to any 
questions going to Mr. Lamberth about—

T he  Court: All right, your objection is overruled.

Mr. Ma rsh : —urban renewal funds, or anything else, 
or what Mr. Barrett said.

T he  Court: T hat’s all right. Your objection is over­
ruled. Now, let’s find out about it.

Mr. Marsh : W e want the Court to note our exception.

T he  Court: W hat did Mr. Barrett say, Mr. Lamberth?

T he  W itn ess: Mr. Barrett was the first one I heard 
mention it. He asked us if we had considered moving 
Booker T. Washington to effect desegregation, just as 
Mr. Marsh did, and we explained to the whole conference 
that we had had this long series of years in which we had 
worked with the citizens who supposedly represented the 
school— I think they did—or the patrons of the school, 
and the implication was that regardless of—

M r. Marsh : Your Honor, excuse me again. I hate 
to interrupt. Mr. Lamberth is talking about implications 
and things—

T he  W itness : All right, I ’ll take that back.

Mr. Marsh : Mr. Barrett isn’t here for cross-examina­
tion. I think this is highly improper.

T he  Court: His representative is here.

Mr. Marsh : It has nothing to do with the issues in this
case.



App. 22

T he  Court: Are you afraid for the Court to know 
what’s underneath of all of this Booker T. Washington 
moving ?

M r. M arsh : Your Honor, we have rules of evidence 
which we are bound by and we think that other witnesses 
and the Court should be bound by the same rules. We have 
no way of testing what was indicated and what Mr. Barrett 
felt in his mind.

T he  Court : You were there, weren’t you?

Mr. Marsh : Mr. Barrett is not a witness in this case 
and this is highly improper. We object to it.

T he  Court: But we want to know what the crux of 
this thing is. If it is coming out of Washington, let’s find 
out about it.

Mr. Ma rsh : Your Honor, there are rules of evidence. 
Witnesses can be subpoenaed.

T he Court: All right.

Mr. Marsh : But I object to this form of getting this 
information into the record.

T he Court: I have ruled.

Mr. Marsh : We have no way of testing the validity 
of his indications.

T he Court: Mr. Marsh, don’t argue with me. I have 
ruled. You can take it up to the Court of Appeals. Every­
body else takes everything up. They appeal from all my 
decisions. You have appealed a dozen times. The School 
Board has appealed. They’ve lost. Everybody has appealed. 
Go ahead, Mr. Lamberth.



App. 23

T h e  W itn ess : Well, the matter was discussed of the 
location of the school, and the idea was that if we move 
the school—if we built the school, that we ought to have 
somebody from my office and somebody from the W ash­
ington-som e office in Washington to study what would be 
the best—where would be the best site to locate the school 
to promote desegregation. That was the upshot of the 
whole matter.

T he  Court: Well, who, in Washington, does that de­
ciding now ?

T he  W itn ess : I suppose H .E.W . would be the person.

T he Court : And they control the purse strings.

T he W itness : Yes, I ’m afraid they do.

T he  Court : Go ahead, Mr. Marsh.

Mr. Marsh : No further questions at this time.

T he  Court: Let’s take a brief recess and then, Mr. 
Ryan, you may question Mr. Lamberth.

(The Court recessed at 3 :40 p.m.)

(The Court reconvened at 3 :55 p.m.)

T he Court: All right, Mr. Lamberth.

Mr. Ashe : We rest.

T he  Court: I understood Mr. Marsh had finished 
up with Mr. Lamberth.

Mr. Mason : Mr. Ryan does not have any questions.

T he  Court : He has no questions.

Mr. Mason : He had to step out of the courtroom for a 
few minutes.



App. 24

T he Court: Mr. Goldblatt.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

By Mr. Goldblatt :
Q Mr. Lamberth, can you tell us how many children 

from Bayside presently in Granby are expected to be trans­
ferred from Granby under this so-called choice plan?

A You mean Bay View ?

Q I mean from Bay View. I ’m sorry, sir.
A No, sir, I do not have any figures elementary school 

by elementary school. I know that there are at present 861 
tenth grade children in Granby High School and a certain 
percentage of those live in the district that, by these lines, 
would be transferred to the Norview district, but I don’t 
know the exact number.

Q Do you have the figures on how many from the 
River View section—

A No, sir.

Q —would be transferred ?
A I do not know. I have the total enrollment in each 

school here by grade, but I do not have the—have 
it census track by census track in court. We have that in 
our office, but we don’t have it in court.

Q And from Winona, your answer is the same ?
A Same, yes, sir.

Q Now, do I understand that you have the figures— 
the approximate number that you expect to transfer from 
Granby at your office under this so-called choice plan?

A We could figure that out, yes, sir.



Mr. Goldblatt: I assume that this Court will go on 
tomorrow. I am not sure.

T h e  Court : Don’t assume too much.

Mr. Goldblatt: All right, sir.

By Mr. Goldblatt :
Q But is there any way you could get those figures 

before the day is over ?
A I don’t know that I can.

Q Would you try, please ?
A I will try, yes, sir.

Q All right, sir. Now, Mr. Lamberth, you contemplate 
transferring these children presently in Granby High 
School from, these areas, do you not, to the Norview 
School?

A Well, this—this new map of senior high school con­
templates that certain children now in Norview down in the 
southeastern section of the city would go to the new Lake 
Taylor School.

Q Yes, sir.
A Then certain children that are in Granby would go 

to Norview and that the sum total of transfers would 
leave each of the five senior high schools with approxi­
mately the same number of pupils, around one-fifth of 
9800, or something like—whatever the enrollment turns up 
to be next year. Right now it’s between 9500 and 10,000. 
I t ’s in that area every year.

Q All right, sir. Now, you’re motivated, under your 
plan, in doing this by the necessity of—or, rather, by over­
crowding at Granby, are you ?

App. 25



App. 26

A Yes, sir. W e’re motivated by the fact that, for a 
modern educational program, we need a fifth high school.

Q All right sir.
A To get the enrollment down to 2,000—in the ap­

proximate neighborhood of 2,000, we can put on a better 
program and—and we—none of our buildings were built 
ideally for more than from 2,000 to 2200 and one, for in­
stance, Norview, at the present enrollment, has had as 
many as 2700 at one time this year. Granby has had as 
many as twenty-four or 2500, and so a new high school 
was necessary if we were to enhance our program in keep­
ing with modern educational standards and have room for 
the pupils, and so the new high school is necessary, yes, 
sir, if that’s what you mean.

Q All right, sir. Your new high school at Lake Taylor?
A That’s right, sir.

Q All right, sir. However, the Granby High School 
is not overcrowded, is it, as it presently—

A Well, this word “overcrowded” is—this word “over­
crowded” is about like the teacher discussion a while ago— 
“W hat is segregation?”

Q I understand.
A W hat is overcrowding? When I attended Maury 

High School, it was a much smaller building than it is 
now and it had 3100 pupils, and when I taught there, I 
never thought it was crowded with 3100, but I was looking 
for one room.. Modern education requires a lot more room 
than education of thirty or forty years ago. The programs, 
like distributive education and shop work and art and 
music and all the things that we have, require room, and so 
we built a high school because there is a great area of the



App. 27

city with no high school and, essentially, because we needed 
additional room in the high schools which we occupy.

Q All right, sir. Now, Mr. Lamberth, and by so doing, 
by affecting these transfers from these areas who normally 
would go, other than the existing— from the existence of 
this choice plan, to Granby—in affecting this, you—the 
enrollment in Granby will not be closed, will it? It will 
still be open for other students, would it not? In other 
words, when you put this choice plan into effect, the one 
you propose—and it’s been objected to, of course, by these 
gentlemen—when you put that into effect, you will have 
openings, will you not, in Granby, places for students to 
come to Granby from other sections ?

A Well, we will have openings in all the high schools—

Q I understand.
A —compared to today’s enrollment, that’s right, sir—

Q All right, sir.
A —because we have four schools now handling the 

same number of pupils we anticipate for next year for 
five schools.

Q All right. Now, the movement of these pupils from 
Granby—transfer of these pupils from this section of 
Granby will not, in any sense, be voluntary, will it, on 
their part ?

A No, it won’t be voluntary.

Q They have no choice, have they, sir ?
A That’s right.

Q So as to them, you can identify your proposed plan 
as a lack of choice plan rather than a choice plan, would 
I not be correct ?



App. 28

A Well, setting up school districts is always a lack of 
choice plan, but it has to be done. I mean—-

Q Well, Mr. Lamberth, you refer to the problems that 
you have had hitherto as—like the one you have now, 
which certainly has never been identified with the present 
problem—

A T hat’s right.

Q — of these gentlemen, yourself or my people ?
A That’s right, that’s right.

Q Now, the only school that will have a choice under 
your choice plan, the only people—-the students that will 
have a choice as to where they will go are the folks from 
Washington High School district; isn’t that right?

A The people that live in section IV, it’s called on this 
map.

Q Section IV. Well, you call that the Washington 
High School—

T he Court: S. H. IV.

T he  W itness : S. H. IV, that’s right.

By Mr. Goldblatt :
Q And do I understand, sir—I believe I gathered this 

from your testimony—that the student in that school will 
have a choice of any of these high schools except Maury?

A That’s right, sir.

Q Therefore, you contemplate a number of these peo­
ple from Washington High School district will ask to go to 
Granby ?

A I don’t know how many will ask to go to Granby. 
At present, there are two hundred and some in that area 
who are attending other than Washington High School.



App. 29

Q I see. And you’re doing that—you have set up this 
plan not because it is a practical plan or a plan that suits 
most of the people, but because it meets the integration 
problem that the School Board is presented with, isn’t 
that so ? Isn’t that the reason you’re doing it ?

A Well, that is the true—that is the reason for the 
choice that you mentioned.

Q Yes, sir. And the-—
A That’s not the reason for the lines. You have to have 

lines regardless of race.

Q I understand. And the reason for that choice— 
back of that reason is the fact that it is necessary, under 
the present economic structure of the finances of the 
City of Norfolk, that it have federal funds with which to 
operate these schools; is that not so? And that, certainly, 
am I correct, has been the impelling motive towards your 
choice plan, as you call it ?

A I don’t want to beg your question, but I understand 
that desegregation is the law regardless of funds.

Q I recognize that, sir.
A I thought it was.

Q But do you understand, Mr. Lamberth, that in ef­
fecting desegregation that you must favor—that you must 
segregate one group of the population in favor of another 
group ? In other words, let me put it this w ay: Do you con­
sider it is an interpretation of the law that you allow the 
Washington High School people a choice that eliminates, 
as I understand you, segregation as far as they’re con­
cerned ; is that correct ?

A That’s correct.



App. 30

Q And do I understand you, sir, that as far as Granby, 
Norview and Lake Taylor, that they do not have a choice?

A That’s right.

Q And isn’t that segregation, Mr. Lamberth, accord­
ing to your knowledge of the law that you have just sug­
gested you know about ?

T he  Court: When you speak of Granby and Norview 
and Lake Taylor, you’re speaking of the people who live 
in the area, are you not ?

M r. Goldblatt: Yes, sir.

By Mr. Goldblatt :
Q In other words, do you understand the law that in 

removing this problem of segregation that you must dis­
criminate against groups of the population or try to equal­
ize it ?

A My understanding of it is, originally, the Court de­
cision said that you could not discriminate against every­
one—

Q That’s right, sir.
A —and I am no lawyer, but from what I ’m advised 

now, the Court decisions have been decided which say you 
not only can’t discriminate but you must desegregate. Now, 
that’s just my understanding as a layman. I don’t know 
whether the lawyers here present agree with me or not.

Q Well now, sir, in effecting the—in executing the 
choice plan, such as you gentlemen propose, is it not a fact 
that it has disregarded the residence of students, their geo­
graphical location of their residence, in respect to the 
school, the desires of these students as to where to go? 
Is that not a fact that that has been the least of the con­
siderations ?



App. 31

A There are two answers—you’re asking two ques­
tions.

Q Yes, sir, I ’m sorry. I don’t mean to.
A It has not disregarded their residence, but it has not 

considered their desires. If  we have 55,000 pupils in 
schools, we can’t go around asking everybody where he 
would like to be when we’re drawing new lines. As to the 
first one, it has taken into consideration his residence and 
despite the geographical lack of symmetry of those lines, 
we have present today a man who— I didn’t draw those 
lines. I didn’t decide where they were going to be drawn 
personally. I approved the drawing of them, but we have a 
man here who did draw them—

Q I see.
A —and they are drawn in the best interest of pro­

moting the getting of children—the right number in a 
school to the school and all the other things that you take 
into consideration when you draw a school district.

Q Mr. Lamberth, I believe you testified that high 
school lines were drawn, as far as possible, in an attempt 
to approximately equal the high school enrollment ?

A That’s right, five times 1950 or 2,000 makes 10,000, 
and that’s how many children we have.

Q Do I understand from you, sir, that in 1967 that 
that has just dawned upon you gentlemen—that you have to 
redraw those lines that had previously existed ?

A Well, we didn’t have Lake Taylor. We had no reason 
to redraw them until we had Lake Taylor.

Q Well, Lake Taylor—if you didn’t have Lake Taylor, 
do I understand—

A We wouldn’t be in court, I reckon.



App. 32

Q You would not be in court ?
A I hope so.

Q And you think, sir, if you didn’t have—you would 
have redrawn the lines again, would you not have—

A No, we wouldn’t—

Q You’d still give them, the Washington district, a 
choice ?

A We wouldn’t have touched the plan if it hadn’t been 
for Lake Taylor.

Q You would not have touched the plan ?
A I would not have. I don’t know—we wouldn’t have 

touched the plan. It would be just the same plan as last 
year.

Q Well, Mr. Lamberth, I will not press you, sir, fur­
ther in this respect, except to ask you this: You have no 
more idea as to whether this is going to work, as a prac­
tical matter, than any of these gentlemen or myself have, 
do you ? You cannot tell ?

A I think— I think I have more idea, having been in 
school work thirty some years—

Q I concede that, sir, that you have more than I do.
A —of my intent. I don’t know what you mean by 

“work.” Do you mean that it’s going to turn out to be the 
right number of pupils ?

Q Well, let me put the question directly to you: that 
you’re now' taking children out of Granby School—you in­
tend to—who have been going to Granby School—

A One year.

Q One year ?



App. 33

A  That’s right.

Q All right. And they have been doing well there, 
haven’t they ?

A That’s right,

Q And they’ve arranged their lives and their schedules 
according to their being a student at Granby and you’re 
taking them out, aren’t you, and you’re taking them and 
you’re moving them over to a new area to Norview, are 
you not ?

A That’s right.

Q About which they know nothing yet ?
A That’s right.

Q And that means an entire change in their respective 
lives, does it not, and that has not been considered by you 
gentlemen in setting up this plan ?

A It certainly has been considered. That’s the reason 
we didn’t change the seniors.

Q You have. Well, is it not a fact that the majority of 
the people—the majority of the students who are affected 
by it are not the children who live in Washington district, 
the Washington High School, but in the areas that you 
changed it? Isn’t that so?

A That’s right, and if we had no Washington district 
or had no case in court, we still would have to do what 
we’ve done. It was done in 1939 when Granby High School 
was opened.

Q But you would not have made the changes you make 
now, as you said a while ago, if you did not have that new 
Lake Taylor School?

A I say, but if we didn’t have this—



App. 34

Q I see.
A —case in court, we would have done it.

Q But it has done th is : You have satisfied the law, you 
feel—that’s correct, is it not?

A That’s right.

Q —but you know you have not satisfied the students 
nor the people in the areas that have been affected by the 
change ? You know that, don’t you ?

A We couldn’t satisfy them—if we were all one race, I 
couldn’t satisfy them.

Q Well, I will say this to you, Mr. Lamberth: You 
really abandoned efforts to satisfy them, did you not, as 
you abandoned efforts a while ago to satisfy these gentle­
men about the location of the Booker T. Washington High 
School?

Mr. Davis: I object to that, if Your Honor pleases. 
There is no evidence whatsoever that they’ve ever aban­
doned any effort to help these children. There is no evidence 
here—

Mr. Goldblatt :Well, I say that they’ve abandoned—

T he  Court: W ait a minute, gentlemen. I will sustain 
the objection. I think you are arguing—

Mr. Goldblatt : All right, sir.

T he  Court : —with Mr. Lamberth now.

Mr. Goldblatt: Pardon me one second, Your Honor.

T he Court: The superintendent of schools is in the 
same category as the federal judge—no matter what he 
does, it’s the wrong thing.



App. 35

Mr. Goldblatt: Your Honor, I have no further 
questions of Mr. Lamberth.

T he Court : All right Mr. Davis.

Mr. Davis: If  Your Honor please, I think Mr. Lam­
berth has testified to what I wanted to ask him, but I 
would like to make sure that it is clear.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

By Mr. Davis :
Q Mr. Lamberth, if we were not in court with a 

school case, if this case had never been instituted and if 
you added Lake Taylor Sr. High School to your system, 
making five high schools instead of four, how would you 
have gone about incorporating it into your system ?

A By drawing new lines and assigning approximately 
the same number of children to each area.

Q Is it not true that under those circumstances, the 
line that affects the children in Bay View would have been 
changed ?

A It certainly would have.

Q Is it not true that the lines that affect the other 
children who have intervened here today would have been 
changed ?

A It certainly would have.

Mr. Davis: I have no other questions at this time, 
Judge.

By T he Court :
Q Mr. Lamberth, the various lines that are drawn, let 

us say, for the senior high school areas, are they drawn 
from the category of, as much as possible, reasonably



App. 36

natural boundaries, transportation available, and with an 
eye to normal capacity of each school ?

A Yes, sir, these lines were drawn by the research 
department of our school system, a staff of three or four 
people, and the only order given them from my office— 
and I gave them myself—was to draw those lines so that 
there would be approximately an even division of the chil­
dren and so that, with the existing natural boundaries of 
which Norfolk has more than its share, with all of its 
creeks and all, as you’re aware, and railroads—have few 
overpasses over the railroads—that natural boundaries be 
taken into consideration and, as I said a moment ago, the 
gentleman who is in charge of that department is here and 
I think Mr. Davis intends to let him give a short testimony 
as to how this map was developed.

Q Well, it would be impossible, I take it, then, in the 
Norfolk School System, with respect to at least the senior 
high schools—and that’s the only thing—one I am direct­
ing my attention to now—to run any circular area around 
any particular school and say, “Well, all children attend­
ing high schools can go to any school they want to,” 
but distancewise, if one high school overflows from appli­
cations, you’d have to take it from the standpoint of dis­
tance ? I am speaking now—take Granby-—the people down 
at the end of Willoughby Spit would be further away than 
many of the people in the now—

A Norview and Maury.

Q — S. H. V area and S. H. II  area; is that correct?
A That’s correct. If you did that, that’s—you see, 

Norfolk’s geography is so unusual and a great big Naval 
base sits there separating Willoughby from the rest of 
the city, on which there are no children on the base itself, 
that if you—if you said that the children could go to any



App. 37

high school and use these five districts and then said the 
ones who were furthest away had to leave, the children 
at Willoughby would have no high school because they’d be 
farther away from anyone. The people at Willoughby 
would be far away; the people way down here in the 
southeastern corner would have difficulty because—and this 
is because of Industrial Park and the airport being in the 
city limits, which is unusual in most cities—it’s usually 
out—way out in the county somewffiere— Lafayette River, 
a dozen creeks all around, and if you said, “W e’ll just let 
everybody go to his own school he chooses and then every­
body move out until it gets 2,000 and the closest ones go,” 
some people from Willoughby, if they had to go to the 
closest one that was empty, might end up at Lake Taylor 
which would be a thirty-minute—I mean an hour ride by 
two transfers in the morning in the crowded hour, and yet 
they ride by Granby and Norview, both. I don’t think this 
would work in practical— I just don’t think it would work. 
It was thought of years ago when we were in this case, 
and we have no idea—and as for the people here who are 
complaining who have intervened, we’d have 10,000 in­
tervening then, I think, because it would be at least 
10,000 somewhere a few thousand here and a few thou­
sand there—who would be overcrowded and had to be 
shoved out of the school they have chosen, and everybody 
—everybody is angry with you and me now, but they’d 
be more angry then, I think.

Q Well, the only way I can be discharged is to be im­
peached. You could be fired.

A I ’m dispensable, you’re right.

Q There have been choices before in various areas and 
they’re cut off this year, and I can understand the reason 
for it, because you had to push some previous Granby



App. 38

children into the Norview area, the Norview area children 
into Lake Taylor, in order to get Lake Taylor properly 
filled.

A Yes, sir. If  we had everybody in a closed area or, 
rather, if we had everybody having some choice, we might 
get no children in Lake Taylor. I mean that would be pos­
sible. W e’d open a new school and nobody appear.

Q How many children, if you know—and I don’t know 
that you have the slightest idea—who reside in the area 
designated as S. H. IV are exercising their freedom of 
choice to go out of S. H. IV ?

A 290, I think. I ’ll look for a nod of head. The nod 
was right. There are 290.

Q And where are they going, mostly, if you know?
A They’re divided, but a larger proportion of them 

goes to Maury at present, but there are some in each of 
the schools that now exist, but there are 290 total.

T he Court: Any other questions of Mr. Lamberth, 
gentlemen ?

Mr. Ryan : Your Honor, may I, please, just a few ques­
tions? I apologize for not being here at the immediate re­
sumption following the recess, Your Honor, but if I might, 
I will just ask a very few questions.

T he Court: Well now, when you’re in court—you were 
on the telephone, I suspect.

Mr. Ryan : I was, Your Honor.

T he  Court: Well, you’re a court officer and you’re ex­
pected to be here. I will permit you to question Mr. Lam­
berth, but you either have to be in court or on the telephone, 
and please be advised accordingly. Go ahead.



App. 39

CROSS-EXAM I NATION

By Mr. Ryan :
Q Mr. Lamberth, directing your attention to this ques­

tion of the location of the new site for Booker T. W ash­
ington High School, if I may, is this a question that did 
arise at some point in the discussions and conferences that 
we had in March among the attorneys for the parties to 
this law suit ?

A Yes.

Q And did those conferences begin with a presenta­
tion of these maps and the proposed changes in the plan 
for desegregation of the public schools of Norfolk?

A Yes, these maps were on easels like this and the plan 
was read. That was the beginning of the conference, that’s 
right.

Q So that the conference began with the proposed 
changes that had been recommended by the School Board 
and by yourself and by the other school authorities here in 
Norfolk; is that not so?

A Well, they were recommended—the School Board 
had not adopted them. They had been recommended by me 
and my staff to the School Board. They had reviewed them 
and we were asked to review them with you, that’s right.

Q Much of it was in the form of proposed resolutions 
for adoption by the School Board; is that not so ?

A That’s right.

By T he Court:
Q Do I understand that there was any proposal in the 

School Board plan toward changing the location of the 
Booke~ T. Washington—•



App. 40

A No, sir, there was nothing in there. There was no 
mention of the Booker T. Washington new building in our 
plan. I never heard of it until I went to this conference. 
Isn’t that correct? You never mentioned it to me before 
that conference, did you ?

By Mr. Ryan :
Q Well, I ’m getting to that. There did come a time, 

though, in the conferences that we had when the question 
of the line separating the new proposed Lake Taylor area 
from the new proposed Booker T. area came into question; 
isn’t that so ?

A That’s right.

Q And there was some discussion about that ?
A That’s right.

Q As well as there was discussion about other as­
pects of the plan ?

A As a whole, that was the chief line that was dis­
cussed. I don’t think the lines were discussed very much— 
lines as such. The lines were rather generally accepted ex­
cept that there was a little discussion of that line, right.

Q Now, was it not a point of concern among the attor­
neys at the conferences that the drawing of this boundary 
line between the Lake Taylor area and the Booker T. area 
might have a tendency to preserve Booker T. Washington 
as an all-Negro school, certainly all-Negro in its student 
body membership, more, in fact, than a tendency with the 
provisions that were made for a choice out ?

A Well, we—yes, the attorneys-—you and the attorneys 
for the plaintiffs felt that the line helped to keep Booker T. 
Washington area segregated, and if I remember correctly



App. 41

—I don’t know whether I did or someone else—but I said, 
“Well, let’s erase that line and call that all Senior High IV 
and there will be no difference.”

Q All right. I ’m just trying—-
A In other words, if you choose between two, whether 

you have a line or not, is immaterial.

Q I just want to establish one or two points here at 
the moment, Mr. Lamberth, if I may-—first of all, that 
there was concern expressed about Booker T.-—

A That’s right.

Q —and about the new Booker T. area?
A That’s right.

Q And was there also concern expressed about Lake 
Taylor, that is, concern that—

A That it would be predominantly white.

Q That it would be predominantly white ?
A That’s right.

Q Now, was it not somewhere along in the line of this 
discussion about these two areas and about Booker T. that 
the question arose about the new site for the Booker T. 
Washington High School? It was in that connection, was 
it not ?

A Yes, it was while we were discussing Booker T. 
Washington, yes.

Q Now, at that time it was pointed out in the course 
of the discussion, was it not, that there were tentative plans 
to build a new Booker T. Washington High School in Nor­
folk?

A That’s right.



App. 42

Q And that the tentative plans called for locating the 
new Booker T. Washington High School essentially on the 
present site of the present—

A T hat’s right.

Q — Booker T. Washington High School?
A That’s right.

Q Is that correct ?
A That’s correct.

Q And it also developed in the course of these confer­
ences and discussions that the tentative site for the new 
Booker T. was situated within an urban renewal area; 
is that correct ?

A That’s correct.

Q Mr. Barrett, whom you have mentioned, was one of 
those who was present at these conferences; isn’t that cor­
rect?

A That’s right.

Q And was present at all of the conferences that were 
held among the attorneys for the parties in this law suit 
in the month of March—•

A Correct.

Q — 1967? Now, did Mr. Barrett engage in some dis­
cussion with the attorneys for the other parties in the law 
suit with respect to Booker T. Washington and the new 
site for Booker T. Washington?

A You mean in my presence, did he talk to Mr. Mad­
ison and Mr. Ashe ? Is that what you mean ?

Q No. I mean in the course of our conferences, was 
this a subject that Mr. Barrett addressed himself to?



App. 43

A I remember on one occasion—you’re talking about 
three hours in which we spent about ten hours a day— 
I mean three days, ten hours a day, but I remember at one 
time he went and pointed to some vacant spots of land 
over in section III there and asked about the feasibility of 
building a high school over there instead of that site— 
just as you’re pointing now—he went to the map and point­
ed. I remember that occurring. I don’t know what day it 
was or what occasion it was.

Q Well, isn’t that a fact—
A Because I remember explaining that this was Indus­

trial Park and, you see, he’s not familiar with the city and 
this was an airport and you couldn’t build a high school 
there, and that sort of thing.

Q Well, Mr. Barrett at no time held himself out to you 
or anyone else present as being someone who had great 
familiarity with the geography of the City of Norfolk, did 
he?

A No, no, he was very nice. He said that, of course, it 
probably wouldn’t work and practically offered to withdraw 
the suggestion. In fact, I was surprised to see it in the ob­
jections after he talked as if it couldn’t be done.

Q Well, do you have some understanding, Mr. Lam- 
berth, that the United States has filed any objections to 
this plan ?

A No, I understood they haven’t.

Q The objections you’re referring to are those filed 
by the plaintiffs; is that not so ?

A That’s right, and that’s what sort of amazed me, you 
know, that they have objected to the site of Booker T. 
Washington.



App. 44

Q Now, did Mr. Barrett at any time in the course of 
these conferences—these negotiations, is what they were, 
weren’t they ?

A That’s right.

Q Did he at any time hold himself out to you or any­
one else present, when you were present, as being any kind 
of an educational expert ?

A Oh, no, no, no.

Q And did he at any time suggest or propose to you 
that the School Board should consider changing the site of 
Booker T. Washington solely for the purpose of achieving 
greater desegregation ?

A He did express the hope that we would get rid of 
that school, yes, he certainly did. I don’t know how he ex­
pected to do it, but he said he hoped we could do it.

Q Is it not a fact that what he said was that he was 
concerned that by keeping Booker T. Washington on the 
same site and depending upon the nature of the urban re­
newal and the kind of housing that might go in there that 
there might be a possibility that Booker T. would be pre­
served as an all-Negro school?

A I am sure he said that, too, sometime during the 
negotiation.

Q And is it not a fact that what Mr. Barrett said was 
that he was concerned to know what factors the School 
Board had considered in selecting a site for the new Booker 
T. Washington?

A That’s right, and I gave him the same reply I gave 
Mr. Marsh—that we had selected it because there are ap­
proximately 2,000 children in that—almost in walking dis­
tance of that site.



App. 45

Q And did he not express concern about the effect of 
the site upon the racial composition of a future Booker T. 
Washington School?

A Of course, he expressed that concern, but the truth 
of the matter is that the site has nothing to do with it. 
I t ’s the housing that’s around the site that determines the 
future of the school.

Q And wasn’t that also something that was discussed 
in these conferences—the housing around the site?

A That’s right, that’s right, the housing around the 
site is what’s important.

Q And wasn’t it also brought out in the conferences 
that it was not known at this time just exactly what kind 
of development will be in that area in this urban renewal 
program ?

A That’s right, nobody knows yet exactly, I think, 
what it will be.

Q So that the nature of the remainder of the develop­
ment would also be a factor—

A That’s right.

Q —affecting the racial composition of a new Booker 
T. Washington High School?

A I t’s proposed it will be some—mostly residential or 
else we’d even need a smaller school than that. I say it’s 
proposed that some of it be residential.

Q Now, is it not also a fact that Mr. Barrett said, in 
the course of these conferences, that it might very well be 
that the site that has been selected—the same site for the 
new Booker T. Washington High School—might be the 
only proper site for that high school?

A Yes, he said that, might well be, that’s right.



App. 46

Q And that his interest and the interest of the Depart­
ment of Justice, as a party in the law suit, in the course 
of our negotiations and looking into the future of the 
schools of Norfolk, was to see whether, everything else 
being equal, it might not be possible for the School Board 
to locate Booker T. in a different site that would be 
equally educationally sound and meet all other factors that 
must be considered by the School Board but at the same 
time might achieve greater desegregation ?

A That’s a long question.

Q Well, I will ask the reporter to read it back, please.
A All right. Will you read that back to me.

(The question commencing on line 15, page 178, was read 
by the court reporter.)

A I can’t answer that question yes or no because the 
one factor that is the most important factor in all location 
of school sites is where the children live, and that will 
never be equal—if you move that school anywhere else, 
that will never be equal. This is the highest number of 
walking children in high school in the city. To move a 
school away from them would be tragic, I think.

Q Well, I was directing myself to the position that 
was represented by Mr. Barrett in the course of our ne­
gotiations.

A You see, if you answer that yes, you’re saying that 
that’s equal and it isn’t true. It will never be equal. This 
is the highest per block concentration of pupils in the City 
of Norfolk. See how small it is? Look how big the Lake 
Taylor area is; look how big the Maury area is; look how 
big the Granby area is. This is the highest concentration 
of pupils in the whole city.



App. 47

Q Directing my attention, however, Mr. Lamberth, to 
the negotiations that we had in the month of March and 
to these—

A T hat’s right, but you prefaced it by saying every­
thing else was equal and everything else is never equal.

T he  Court: Well, I think what Mr. Ryan wants to 
bring out is what Mr. B arrett’s position was, primarily. 
Isn’t that what your thought is ?

Mr. R yan : T hat’s correct, Your Honor, yes.

By Mr. Ryan :
Q I am trying to clear the air a little bit, if I can, on 

the interest—
A Well, I didn’t mean—

Q —that was expressed on the part of the Department 
of Justice in the location of a new Booker T. Washington 
High School.

A Well, I want to join in what Mr. Davis said, Your 
Honor, if I may. Mr. Barrett and I got along famously. 
I mean we have no differences as people. The only thing 
that I said was, the first time I remember hearing in the 
negotiations anything about Booker T. Washington High 
School—just happened maybe I was out of the room when 
someone else mentioned it—I don’t think so—but the first 
time I heard it was when Mr. Barrett asked if we would 
take up consideration of a site for Booker T. in lieu of 
what you’ve said. He had prefaced it by some remarks 
about the Department’s interest in desegregating the high 
school and he was the first one that I had heard mention 
Booker T. Washington High School, but I did not mean to 
infer that he took the position of an expert in education or 
anything. No, he did not. He was very gentlemanly.



App. 48

By T he  Court:
Q I understand that. He was the first one who sug­

gested it, as far as you knew ?
A As far as I knew, he was the first one I heard men­

tion it. I don’t think—do you think I ’m correct Mr. Ryan?

By M r. Ryan :
Q The point I ’m trying to make, did this not arise in 

connection with your proposed changes and in connection 
with an inquiry on Mr. B arrett’s part as to the factors that 
had gone into the decision—

A That’s right.

Q —to locate the new Booker T. where it has been 
chosen to be located ?

A Yes, that’s correct.

Q But he did not at any time say to you or anyone 
else in these negotiations that the Booker T. Washington 
High School should be moved from one site to some other 
site solely for the purpose of desegregating the school, did 
he?

A No, he didn’t say it should be moved for the sole— 
but the only reason he said for considering it was to try 
to get it more desegregated.

Q While at the same—
A I don’t see much difference.

Q While at the same time having a site and a high 
school that would be equally educationally sound with any 
other site, if possible; is that not a fact ?

A But he would have no reason to mention it if it was 
desegregated, would he ?

Q Of course not. Now, in the course of these discus­
sions about Booker T. Washington High School and about



App. 49

choice of a site for Booker T. Washington High School, 
Mr. Lamberth, did Mr. Barrett or did I or did anyone 
ever make any comment about federal funds in connection 
with an urban renewal project?

A I didn’t hear any. There might have been some 
joking of sides, but I don’t think anybody seriously men­
tioned them, no, sir. I mean—

Q Did anyone ever convey to you any threat that there 
would be some cutoff of federal funds ?

A Well, in the course of conversation, Mr. Ryan, of 
three days, the newspapers were there, with notices in the 
paper that—about certain counties in Virginia—

Q I don’t—
A —had them cut off, and so forth, I think it prob­

ably was a matter of a moment’s consideration not in re­
lation to Norfolk, but I mean federal funds are a topic of 
conversation anywhere. I don’t recall, but it might have 
been mentioned sometime somewhere, yes. I don’t know.

Q I ’m directing my attention to this urban renewal 
project, Mr. Lamberth.

A Well, everybody knows that the urban renewal is 
dependent on federal funds. I think everybody present 
knew it.

Q You mean that was very much in your mind, per­
haps ?

A No more in my mind than any one of a dozen 
things.

Q Well, did Mr. Barrett or anyone else at any time say 
anything to the effect that there was going to be any cut­
off of any federal funds for that urban renewal project?

A I remember someone saying that if we had to find 
another site that it—-



App. 50

Q Well, would you try  to—
A —might not have urban renewal there because it’s 

known as the educational project and the high school is an 
integral part of it.

Q Did Mr. Barrett ever threaten you—
A No, he did not threaten me.

Q —with any cutoff of federal funds for this urban 
renewal project?

A Mr. Barrett has never threatened me with the cutoff 
of any funds.

Q Did you ever hear him say a word about federal 
funds of that urban renewal project and there being any—

A No, did not, did not.

Mr. Ryan : I have no further questions at this time, 
Your Honor.

T he  Court: Do we have anything else of Mr. Lam- 
berth? Mr. Marsh?

M r. Marsh : Your Honor, just one question.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

By Mr. Marsh :
Q I looked through the record— I didn’t see whether 

we had the capacity of the new Lake Taylor High School. 
If you would give us that for the benefit of the record.

A The Lake Taylor High School is built, depending 
upon the grades that are in it at any particular time, to 
handle between 2,000 and 2200. Virginia school authori­
ties have a ten percent leeway—2,000 to 2200.

Q Thank you.



App. 51

A 2,000 to 2200.

T he  Court : That’s with the full grades ?

T he W itness : W ith all grades, the senior class.

T he  Court: Are there any other questions of Mr. 
Lamberth ?

Mr. Marsh : No.

Mr. Davis: If Your Honor please, I have probably two, 
and if I may ask them now, it might save putting him 
back on the stand later.

T he  Court: Yes.

recross-e x a m in a t io n

By Mr. Davis:
Q Mr. Lamberth, it occurs to me it might be helpful 

for the record, if for no other reason, if you would come 
down here and designate the respective areas and state 
what the blank spaces on the map are. Of course, we all 
know what they are, but it doesn’t show up in the record. 
I am thinking about the Naval Base—•

T he Court: I guess you’d better write it in there, then, 
because I know what they are, but—-

Mr. Davis: Would it be permissible for Mr. Lamberth 
just to write them on the map ?

T he Court: Yes, write in Naval Base and the airport 
and Industrial Park, and so on.

Mr. Davis: That’s fine. I thought it might—

T h e  Court : In fact, you can do it afterwards.

Mr. Davis : All right.



T he  Court: You could do it afterwards, as far as 
that’s concerned.

Mr. Marsh : Your Honor, we could get together and do 
this after the trial, just to save time.

Mr. Davis: That will be fine; no use in doing it now. 

By Mr. Davis :
Q My other question was th is : Reverting to the state­

ment you made to the effect that you recognized—some­
thing to this effect—that you recognized that there’s a 
problem in connection with the Rosemont Jr. High School. 
W hat are the factors that make up that problem that you 
mentioned there ?

A The Rosemont Jr. High School was built as a com­
bination junior high school and elementary school, and at 
the time it was built, there was considerable housing ad­
jacent to the building. In the past three or four years, it 
has become a redevelopment project, a very active one 
recently. I understand that equipment is there and work is 
already starting on some—something to return the hous­
ing to that area, but as a result of this redevelopment pro­
ject, many homes have been removed from that area. In 
addition, two major highways, one interstate, which took 
out a great many homes, has come through there, and 
Chesapeake Boulevard has been considerably widened and 
made into a parkway street, and all of this has happened in 
the last two years. Consequently, the enrollment of elemen­
tary and junior high school, combined, of Rosemont has 
gone down from almost capacity, which it was soon after 
it was built, to perhaps less than two-thirds or maybe two- 
thirds of capacity at present, considering all grades. Now, 
the building is momentarily starting actually out of the 
ground, I think, on the redevelopment, and if the plans pro­

A pp.52



App. 53

ceed apace, the long range urban redevelopment plan for 
that school calls for filling that school and building another 
one. No, whether—how quickly those houses will be rent­
ed or whatever the urban—our experience with urban de­
velopment has been that they’ve all stayed pretty full once 
they’re built. Young Park has stayed full and Diggs Park, 
and all the others, where we’ve built schools, but this—the 
long range plan for the housing in that area and this, more 
than any choice plan at all, has contributed to the under-pop­
ulation at the moment that exists momentarily at Rosemont 
School. The actual area has been torn by two forces—urban 
renewal and interstate highway, both of which are n e a r -  
interstate highway is completed and urban renewal is be­
ginning to rebuild.

Q I take it from your answer that that under-popula­
tion may be simply quite temporary ?

A It should be because the federal government has ap­
proved an urban renewal project in that area and wouldn’t 
approve it until we laid aside a site for a second school.

Mr. Davis: I have no other questions, if Your Honor 
please.

By T he  Court:
Q W hat are the transportation facilities for the area 

in and around Northside and Bay view down to Rosemont? 
Mr. Marsh made some comment. I think he was intimating 
that he felt—at least I believe he did—some of the Bay 
View students should be required to be assigned into Rose­
mont as a requirement. W hat are the transportation facil­
ities ? Is that split by this interstate route or proposed inter­
state?

A Well, there’s an underpass at two streets there, 
Sewells Point Road and Chesapeake Boulevard.



App. 54

Q I ’m talking about the other—we’re not worried a- 
bout the senior high schools.

A Over here. Well, there are three—there are four 
major north-south arteries, three of whom—of which, I 
think, have transportation lines, Your Honor. Granby 
Street is one. Tidewater Drive is a major artery, but it’s a 
dividing line in many of our district plans, as you see, be­
cause it’s a high speed—it’s forty miles, I think—and then 
Chesapeake Boulevard and Sewells Point Road. Chesa­
peake Boulevard has a bus line just as Granby Street has.

Q Chesapeake Boulevard is the only one that would 
take any child near Rosemont ?

A That’s right, one— I’m not sure. Well now, Military 
Highway also has a bus line and it’s about—Rosemont is 
about three blocks from each thoroughfare— from Mili­
tary Highway or Chesapeake Boulevard. I t ’s about two 
and a half and two and a half, or something like that, in 
blocks. Closer than that, really, because this spot doesn’t 
mark the whole area.

T he  Court: All right. I f  there is nothing further of 
Mr. Lamberth, thank you, Mr. Lamberth.

*  *  *

[tr. p p . 251-253]

RECROSS-EXAMINATION

By Mr. Davis:
Q Mr. Lamberth, one or more of the persons who 

intervened today set forth as an objection to the plan of 
the School Board the fact that government children who 
last year attended Maury High School or this year or, 
rather—I ’m mixed up now—government children who this 
year are attending Maury High School will, under our pro­



App. 55

posed plan, attend Granby. Will you explain to the Court 
and for the purpose of everyone what the situation has 
been with regard to those government children and why the 
changes to them ?

A The situation in regards to those is that these chil­
dren live in the northern part of the city, around the 
figure Sr. H. I on the senior high school map here, and 
during World W ar II, the number of government housing 
units there was increased sharply. There were practically 
none before that, and these children were housed there. The 
Naval Base was expanded and keeps expanding, and they 
were arbitrarily assigned all over the city, wherever there 
were any vacant rooms, and at that time there was room be­
cause we had not had the two annexations, had not in­
corporated Norview High School into the system until 
1955, and these children, through sort of an unwritten 
agreement with the Navy, were allowed—at times the Navy 
transported them, to wherever rooms were vacant, with the 
understanding that when the city’s building program pro­
gressed to the point that we had another high school and 
could place children nearer their homes on some education­
ally sound basis that they would be housed in the nearest 
high school, which is Granby High School. I t’s the nearest 
school, as everyone can see, to the government installations 
along Hampton Boulevard.

4^ v£*-
-T 1 '»*•

Mr. Davis: If  Your Honor please, before I call the next 
witness, may I say this, before I forget it any longer. 
When Mr. Lamberth was being examined by Mr. Ryan, 
questions were asked with regard to this rumor that came 
down to the effect that the government might cut off 
federal funds if the plan wasn’t approved. I would like to 
state for the purposes of the record that I heard that



App. 56

rumor, but I did not hear it from either Mr. Ryan or from 
Mr. Barrett. Neither one of those gentlemen made any 
threat along that line whatsoever. The information I re­
ceived was from a totally different source. I do not think it 
is material, but if the Court would like to hear it, I will be 
glad to tell you the source.

T he  Court: No, I did not understand there had been 
any direct threats to any member of the School Board or 
to their counsel, but indirect threats can be just as effective 
as direct threats when the chips are down and you start 
counting those dollars that come out of Washington.

Mr. Davis: W hat I want to make clear is that what I 
heard did not come from either Mr. Ryan or Mr. Barrett.

T he  Court : I know where it came from.

[tr . p p . 255-266]
John C. McLaulin

called as a witness by and on behalf of the defendants, 
having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified 
as follows:

direct exam ination

By Mr. Davis :
Q Your name, sir, is Dr. John C. McLaulin?
A Yes, sir.

Q W hat is your address, please, sir ?
A I live at 311 W est McGinnis Circle, and that is in 

Norfolk.

Q Are you associated with the School Board of the 
City of Norfolk or its administrative staff?



App. 57

A Yes, sir, I am the—

Q In what capacity ?
A I am the Director of Research.

Q Dr. McLaulin, will you tell us, please, where you 
went to school, what degrees you have and what experience 
you have had ?

A Yes, sir. I earned a bachelor’s degree at Duke Uni­
versity in music education in 1955 and a master’s degree 
and a doctorate degree at the University of Virginia, the 
latter in 1961. I have one year’s teaching experience in 
public schools, some four years of teaching experience with 
the military services. I spent about four years in Baltimore 
County, Maryland, attached to that Department of Re­
search, and since 1961, I have been in my present position.

Q W hat are the duties which you perform as the 
Director of the Department of Research ?

A Well, by and large, I administer and supervise the 
research program in the School System, and this involves 
the conduct of research projects or the supervision of re­
search projects being conducted by other members of the 
School System and I do advise students attached to the 
colleges who wish to conduct research projects in the School 
System, some of our teachers who are working on advanced 
degrees; the bulk of the work that I do, aside from this, 
can be summed up in a general statement which is at the 
direction of the Superintendent and my position is to assist 
the Superintendent in presenting the instructional program 
which he has at hand.

Q Mr. Lamberth testified that you, at his request, pre­
pared this map which is identified as “Map—Senior High 
Schools, as amended, 1967.” Will you tell us, please, sir,



App. 58

how you prepared that map, just what mechanics you 
followed and what procedure you followed ?

A Yes, sir. I think there are two things that we need 
to know as background. One, on the last day of September 
or on September 29th, to be exact, we conducted a federal 
survey for Public Law 874, and this is the federally im­
pacted law. We are required to do this two times every 
year and we must obtain information from every student 
in the School System at that time. The other thing that we 
need to know is that the Planning Commission has recent­
ly divided the city into approximately ninety planning dis­
tricts, and during the summer and early part of September, 
the Planning District did put together a booklet entitled 
“Planning District Delineation,” which translates every 
address in the City of Norfolk into a planning district 
number so that if we know that—if a child gives an ad­
dress as 124 East Little Creek Road, we can look in the 
Planning District Delineation and tell where he lives in 
terms of planning districts. This gives us a geographic and 
distribution of all the children in Norfolk. W hat we did 
was to take the federal survey cards on which was the ad­
dress of every child and check that address against the 
Planning District Delineation and place this on data pro­
cessing and asked the machine to distribute the number of 
pupils by planning districts within schools and by schools 
within planning districts. This was two separate tabula­
tions, each of these by grade.

Now, that’s the source of data. In preparing the map, 
the Superintendent asked me to do two things, basically. 
He asked me to suggest some lines on the map in such a 
way that the upcoming senior high school population 
would be equally distributed among the five senior high 
schools and he asked me to include the Naval Base children



in Senior High I area in the school closest to them, which 
would be Granby.

From that point on, it was a very simple matter. I simply 
started at the school and began to count children out from 
the school until we reached about 2,000 children. Our next 
year’s estimates indicate that we’ll have about 10,000 senior 
high school children for next year and for the next three 
or four years, as a matter of fact. So I started at each 
school and radiated out and counted about 2,000 children 
and drew a line around this and then I tried to adjust the 
line according to natural boundary lines, natural boundary 
lines being the waterways—major waterways or the major 
streets or highways in the City of Norfolk.

Q Would you be able, Dr. McLaulin, to go to the map 
and trace those boundary lines and point out how they 
follow waterways and major arteries, or whatever they 
may follow ?

A Yes, sir.

T he Court: You’re speaking now of the senior high 
school map, I take it ?

T he  W itn ess: Yes, sir, speaking from the senior high 
school map.

Mr. A s h e : If Your Honor please, if he were to get 
back like he was before, we could see better.

T he  Court: That will be all right. I think I can hear 
him.

By Mr. D avis :
Q Now, Doctor, it will be necessary to refer to the 

line and describe it so that it can be gotten into the record.
A Well, I ’ll define the boundaries at Senior High 

School Area I—



App. 60

Q All right, sir.
A —and starting at the north part of the city, it does 

come down Chesapeake Boulevard to Bay View, west on 
Bay View, south on Tidewater to a point of water here, 
west to Granby Street, which also marks the boundary 
line of the Naval Air Station, south on Granby Street to 
Little Creek Road, east on Little Creek Road to Tidewater 
Drive, south on Tidewater Drive to Alsace Avenue; then 
it winds from Alsace Avenue west to the Lafayette River, 
follows the Lafayette River out to the western boundary of 
Norfolk and then connects back with the northern boundary, 
following the outline of the city.

Q Now, are the various streets that you have named— 
tell us whether they are small streets, large streets, or what 
kind of streets they are, please.

A Well, Chesapeake Boulevard is a major street; Bay 
View Boulevard is a major street or boundary; Tidewater 
Drive is. This is a waterway. Granby Street is a major 
street and Little Creek Road is a major street; Tidewater 
Drive, once again, is a major street. The way the line gets 
from Tidewater Drive to the Lafayette River is to follow 
the boundary line of one of the planning districts which I . 
mentioned earlier. I t ’s only a matter of some three or four 
blocks until we get to the waterway there.

Q Yes.
A And this waterway also happens to be a planning 

district boundary line also. The Lafayette River is naturally 
a major boundary, and then we’re talking about the re­
mainder of the city.

Q All right, sir. Would you go to the next area, please,
sir.



App. 61

A Senior High School District II is defined on the north 
by the Chesapeake Bay or the boundary of the city as well 
as on the east; on the south it’s defined by Little Creek 
Road once again, which is still a major thoroughfare, south 
on Military Highway to Norview Avenue—Military H igh­
way is a major boundary—Norview Avenue—west on 
Norview Avenue—Norview Avenue is a major boundary 
-—south on the new interstate highway—I don’t recall what 
it is—64, I think—to a point intersected by Texas Avenue, 
west on Texas Avenue to a point of water which is an exten­
sion of the Lafayette River-—and I don’t really know what 
the name of the waterway is—and then it follows this water­
way to Tidewater Drive. This boundary which follows 
Texas Avenue and the waterway is an arbitrary decision. 
We had to get from Military Highway across to Tidewater 
Drive somehow and somewhere in a manner which divided 
this area between Norview and Lake Taylor Sr. High 
School. Texas Avenue seemed to be the quickest way to 
get across to the point of water which, once again, is the 
natural boundary line.

Q Now, what happens to that line as you go westward 
and strike Tidewater Drive, which would be the western 
boundary of Sr. H. II ?

A Well, yes, the western boundary of Sr. H. II is the 
eastern boundary of Sr. H. I—

Q I see.
A —which we’re back up Tidewater Drive and 

through the route that I mentioned a moment ago.

Q All right. If  you will now go to Sr. H. III.
A The northern boundary is, as I just described, with 

Little Creek Road and Military Highway, Bay View Boule­
vard, Texas Avenue, along a point of water. On the western 
boundary, it follows the Virginian Railroad to—excuse me



—to a railroad south of the 264 spur. I don’t know what the 
name of the railroad is.

Mr. Lamberth : Belt Line, I believe.
A Belt Line.

M r. Lamberth : That’s correct.
A Follows that east for a few blocks and then along a 

point of water to the southern boundary of the city, along 
the eastern branch of the Elizabeth River, follows the 
Elizabeth River eastward and the city limits back up to 
Little Creek Road.

Q All right, sir. Now Sr. H. IV, please.
A Sr. H. IV  is defined on the eastern side by the V ir­

ginian Railway, as I mentioned, on the northern side by 
Princess Anne Road, west on Princess Anne Road for about 
four blocks, from that point northwest to another branch 
of the Lafayette River, follows the Lafayette River to a 
point one block south of Lafayette Boulevard, proceeds 
west on that waterway— I ’m sorry, I ’m looking for the 
name of this railway and I can’t find it.

Q It is a railway, however ?
A To a railway, right, and follows—continues to fol­

low west on this railway, south on Armistead Road to a 
point where it intersects St. Paul Boulevard and from there 
south to the southern boundary of the city and continues 
around the southern boundary of the city back to the eastern 
branch of the Elizabeth River. I ’m sorry, I can’t read the 
street names in here quite so well.

Q That’s all right.
A This is also—this northern boundary is also a plan­

ning district line and, for the most part, a waterway.

App. 62



App. 63

Q Now, Sr. H. V, please.
A Sr. H. V on the west—on the north is defined by the 

Lafayette River to Tidewater Drive, proceeds north on 
Tidewater Drive to another branch of the Lafayette River, 
south on the Virginian Railway, and west is defined by the 
boundary of the city, this line we’ve already described one 
time.

Q And the southern boundary is what ?
A Well, that is the line that we’ve described just a 

moment ago.

Q As being the northern boundary of Sr. H. IV ?
A As the northern boundary of S. H. IV, yes.

Q Now, with regard to the various streets that you 
mentioned in addition to those you mentioned in dealing with 
Sr. H. I, are they small streets, big streets, or what kind 
of streets are they ?

A Well, almost all of these streets are major streets, 
major throughways for Norfolk, with the exception of one 
or two instances—-

Q Yes.
A —which I said followed the boundary lines of plan­

ning districts. In this area there was no major street, just 
this small area from Interstate 64 west on S. H. II.

Q You’re referring to that portion of the southern 
boundary line of S. H .— Senior High II?

A  Yes, sir, right in there, and this—this northern 
boundary of Senior High V, where it proceeds from the 
Lafayette River eastward to Tidewater Drive. It looks 
like a little peculiar line in there. Actually, the bulk of it is 
a waterway.



App. 64

Q Yes.
A About three blocks of it were defined by planning 

district lines.

Q All right, sir. Thank you. Now, Doctor, did you 
prepare for Mr. Lamberth an inventory setting forth cer­
tain statistical information with regard to the schools, the 
pupils, the staffs, and so forth ?

A Yes, sir.

Q I hand you a document which is entitled, under its 
subject, “Summary of Inventory of Public School System 
(Federal Survey),” and dated October 12, 1966, and I will 
ask you, if you will, please, to identify that and tell us 
what it is.

A Yes, sir, this is a memorandum from me to Mr. 
Lamberth, Superintendent of Schools, and it summarizes 
the data which we gathered as a result of a federal survey, 
the title of which was “Inventory of Public School Sys­
tems,” and the substance of the survey was asking for 
numbers of teachers and pupils assigned to the schools and 
to the central administration, broken down by racial dis­
tribution.

M r. D avis: If  Your Honor please, we would like to offer 
this as an exhibit. I do not believe that it is necessary, unless 
the Court would like for me to, to ask the doctor to review 
all of the information here. It is statistical information with 
regard to numbers of pupils and membership, percentages 
by race, number of professionals in the staff, and so on 
and so forth.

T he  Court: All right, let it be marked School Board 
Exhibit No. 2, and you better put the date after it, Mr. 
Clerk, if you will, please.



App. 65

T he  Clerk : Right.

T he Court : Exhibit No. 1 ,1 believe it should be— School 
Board Exhibit No. 1.

(Summary of Inventory of Public School System was 
marked and received in evidence as School Board Exhibit 
No. 1.)

Jfc jfc

[tr. p p . 296-322]
Vincent J. Thomas

called as a witness by and on behalf of the defendants, 
having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as 
follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

By Mr. Davis:
Q Your name, sir, is Vincent J. Thomas ?
A Yes, sir.

Q W hat is your address, Mr. Thomas ?
A 2053 Hunters Trail, Norfolk.

Q And I believe you are Chairman of the School Board 
of the City of Norfolk?

A Yes, sir.

Q How long have you held that position ?
A About six years.

Q Are you familiar, Mr. Thomas, with the plan of the 
School Board of the City of Norfolk for desegregation of 
the Public Schools of the City as amended and as proposed 
and submitted to the Court, with the request that the Court 
approve it ?



App. 66

A Yes, sir.

Q W hat is the purpose of the School Board with re­
gard to this situation of desegregation of the schools?

A I think it might be valuable to talk a little about the 
intent of the School Board and the background of last 
year’s desegregation plan and its evolvement into this 
year’s. F irst off, the School Board recognizes that the 
predominant body of law as interpreted by our courts and 
the civil rights law prohibit the operation of a dual school 
system and require that a system be a unitary system. We 
have had in the past a dual school system, and recognizing 
what the law says, we are now attempting to move to a 
unitary school system.

In order to do this, with the background of tradition and 
custom and law, we have got to have some plan of movement 
and this is required by law and is our plan of desegregation. 
Now, this is the School Board’s responsibility and it’s strict­
ly the School Board’s plan, and last year we agreed to sit 
down with the plaintiffs’ attorneys, feeling that they repre­
sented the Negro community, and that the Negro com­
munity certainly had an interest in their schools, being—• 
having about forty percent of the school population of 
Norfolk. We also felt that the federal government had some 
stake in our schools, with some forty percent of the chil­
dren being either in the service or service-connected through 
federally connected employment, and in addition, that con­
siderable funds were being put up, that the federal govern­
ment had some stake to see that our schools were not being 
operated in an unlawful manner. This grew out, actually, 
of the Booker T. Washington controversy which we had in 
which the School Board decided, on its initiative, to bring 
in the representatives of the Negro community and the 
patrons of Booker T. Washington and see exactly what 
their views were.



App. 67

As far as I know, this was the first time that our School 
Board had done anything like this. Through the evolvement 
of various meetings and through continuous meetings, some 
of which have been held relatively recently about the Booker 
T. Washington situation, we have worked closely with these 
representatives so that we would know of their thinking 
and take it into account in our final decisions, reserving at 
all times to ourselves the final responsibility for deciding 
school matters.

Now, what we have is an interim plan. It would certainly 
be desirable at sometime in the future for us not to have a 
plan of desegregation; that we could reach some point where 
the School Board again assigned its pupils on a basis that 
was acceptable to all of our citizens. So this is actually an 
interim plan.

Now, we heard here today attacks on the plan from a 
number of people, and with this complicated matter that 
we have and with the body of law that’s being developed 
every day and with different decisions by different courts, 
we must decide what we think should be done and what 
is best for the City of Norfolk. Now, any plan that any­
body could devise could certainly be attacked by either side. 
I recognize that, but in moving from a unitary— from a dual 
school system to a unitary school system, we must devise 
some plan of doing it and this is what it is. We have tried 
to operate in good faith. We have taken certain affirmative 
actions. We have been responsive, we think, to the Negro 
community, as evidenced by the Booker T. Washington 
situation. We have had voluntary conferences with the 
representatives of the NAACP and with the Department 
of Justice. We have on our School Board an able and articu­
late Negro attorney who certainly is aware of what’s going 
on and has certainly made his position entirely clear. Our 
Board has always been accessible to anybody who wants to



App. 68

come and speak before it. We have never denied any citizen 
the right to present his case to the School Board. Last year, 
without, we thought, any law to demand that we do it, 
we voluntarily agreed to begin a plan of faculty desegrega­
tion, feeling that in the long run that this would mean a 
better education for all of our children. Our summer pro­
grams have been desegregated. In the Maury High School 
situation which came up, we were under some pressure to 
make changes there which might result in more or con­
tinued segregation which we resisted. We have not ne­
glected the schools in any community. We feel that our 
schools—we have old schools and we have new schools, but 
certainly all over the city the schools are equal; the staff- 
ing is equal; the pupil-teacher ratios are similar. We have 
not neglected our so-called poor schools and given to our 
rich schools. In our plan of freedom of choice, there has 
not been any charge, nor do I believe that anyone has—any 
student or any parent has been influenced or coerced in 
any manner not to choose a school that he had a choice of.

W hat we, as the School Board, have wanted in this 
whole matter is to devise something that would give to each 
Negro child a meaningful opportunity to choose a desegre­
gated school, if he and his parents have wanted to, and do 
it in such a manner that it would be accepted and supported 
by most of the citizens of the community, recognizing that 
there’s no possible way on earth that we can please every­
one.

We have felt that any integration that we have will not 
be worth anything unless it’s successful, and we can force 
it and we can look to some of our northern neighbors, like 
Washington, and we can see the results of forcing integra­
tion where it is contrary to the customs and feelings of the 
people. W hat we have had in Norfolk, especially around 
Blair and Maury, is what I would call a natural integration.



App. 69

The neighborhoods have changed and this has been ac­
cepted, by and large, by the people of Norfolk, but any 
coercion of moving people—picking them up and moving 
them out of their natural neighborhoods into a situation 
merely for the purpose of desegregation—of integration, we 
do not feel that it will be accepted by the preponderance of 
the citizens of Norfolk of either race.

So this is what we have tried to do— is to obey the law 
in such a manner that it will be supported by most of the 
citizens of Norfolk.

M r. Davis : Mr. Thomas, answer these gentlemen, if they 
have any questions, please, sir.

T he  Court : Mr. Madison.

CROSS EXAMINATION

By Mr. Madison :
Q Very fine speech, Mr. Thomas, but let me ask you 

just one or two questions. Mr. Thomas, I think it has 
been testified here that the School Board actually makes the 
assignments of teachers. Am I correct?

A That’s right, they are approved by the School Board, 
Mr. Madison.

Q Yes, sir. Recommendation by the Superintendent?
A We approve or disapprove. We do not make the 

actual assignment. If  an assignment is recommended to 
the School Board, we either approve it or disapprove it. 
We don’t disapprove it and say, “No, we want you to put so 
and so.” This is an administrative job and Mr. Lamberth 
handles that.

Q And it has been testified to that you approximately 
have a turnover in the high schools of faculty of about 
twenty percent each year; is that correct, sir ?



App. 70

A  I heard the testimony. I can accept that. T hat’s—•

Q All right. Now, let’s take a typical high school. Let’s 
take Granby High School. Last year—the reports you filed 
here of September, ’66—you had a total of 107 teachers at 
Granby High School and you had two Negro teachers. Do 
you know whether or not that figure will be changed for 
the 1967-68 school year ?

A I wish you’d ask Mr. Brewster this. He is operating 
under a School Board policy that says that we assign teach­
ers who are suitable without regards to race, and it is cer­
tainly not the intention of the School Board to limit it to 
two, provided that suitable teachers, with the proper cer­
tification, can be found.

Q Well, I believe, as of last year, you were working 
under a plan wherein a vacancy occurs, that vacancy, as 
far as possible, would be filled by a member of the race in 
the minority, right ?

A If  there were two candidates and they were of equal 
suitability and equal certification, that’s correct.

Q Well, when you hire a person, do you give them the 
opportunity to choose whether or not they will teach in an 
integrated school or whether they have the option to say, 
“No, I ’m not going to teach in this school; I want to teach 
in that school” ?

A Well, this is a personnel matter, Mr. Madison. W hen­
ever you’re dealing with people, you must take their wishes 
into some account. You heard Mr. Brewster testify to the 
competition that we have in obtaining teachers. I t’s not only 
matters of pay and working conditions and living condi­
tions and cost of living. There are a myriad of things that 
influence what job a teacher takes. W e’re just not in a 
position to lay down strict orders to anybody that may hap­



App. 71

pen to be against their wishes. This is a personnel matter 
and people would come to work for you if your conditions— 
if they accept your conditions. If they don’t accept ours, 
then they can choose Virginia Beach or Portsmouth or what 
is—in the case of many of our teachers, they are discretion­
ary—they don’t have to teach at all.

Q Well, let me ask you this, then: Do you suffer from 
a shortage of teachers ?

A I think that every school system suffers from a 
shortage of qualified teachers. I don’t think that in any 
basis of hiring teacher personnel that any teacher personnel 
officer feels that he’s got enough to choose from.

Q Well, isn’t the truth of the matter that the School 
Board gives the teachers the option of selecting whether 
or not they wish to teach in an integrated school or not? 
The teacher still has that privilege, right ?

A If  a teacher refuses to go to an integrated school 
and we want the teacher, the chances are, under the current 
circumstances, we’re going to try  to accommodate the 
teacher, but at the same time we have tried to let all of the 
teachers know that this is an important matter to our 
School System and that we do hope that they will cooperate 
and go where our personnel people and our administration 
feels that they can do the best job for the children.

Q Well, are you familiar with a form that was cir­
culated through the schools, asking the teachers to signify 
on this form whether or not they wished to be transferred to 
a school of a different racial group ?

A I don’t recall the wording. It was, I think, sent out 
to all of the teachers to indicate which teachers would be 
interested in considering this matter to give the personnel 
department some basis to operate from.



App. 72

Q So so far, then, as the integrating of teachers in the 
schools is concerned, it is still left entirely to the individual 
teacher ?

A No, it is not.

Q And the School Board does nothing about that?
A It is not left to the teacher. Our administration and 

our personnel people have vacancies and jobs to fill and 
they must fill them in the best way they can. Now, to the 
extent that they can use their persuasive powers, they do so 
to get the teacher to do what is best for the system. This is 
what our personnel people in our administration are trying 
to do—what is best for the system.

Q Mr. Thomas, do you know of any directions ever 
given to any teacher that she must teach in a certain school ?

A As I say, no direct information.

Q All right.
A I mean there might be some that they do tell to, “Go 

here.”

Q Well, has it ever come to your attention that some 
teacher quit because she was transferred or threatened 
with a transfer ?

A No. We have teachers leaving the system all the time. 
This is not in the realm of policy—

Q But you never had—
A —and doesn’t ordinarily come before the Board.

Q But it has never been brought to your attention that 
they are leaving the system because of the threat of being 
assigned to some school ?

A I wish you’d ask all this to Mr. Brewster because 
he has all the individual things. I ’ve heard of some teachers 
that have been assigned somewhere that they didn’t want



App. 73

to go or their husband didn’t want them to go. I t’s a matter 
of—it’s a personnel matter. W e’re not running the Army. 
These people have a choice and they can either work for us 
or not.

Q But what I ’m getting at—

T he  Court: You’re speaking of the present teachers; 
you’re not talking about the new teachers ?

Mr. Madison : I am talking about the present teachers, 
yes, sir.

A You see, there’s a shortage of teachers everywhere 
and it’s a seller’s market as far as the teacher is concerned. 
H er services are very valuable and she can sell them to 
anyone she pleases. I t’s not—we’re not in a buyer’s market 
where we have teachers breaking the door down to get a 
job. This is one of the problems we have in education now.

By Mr. Madison :
Q Well, then, the sum total of what I am trying to ask 

you, Mr. Thomas, is this: To the best of your knowledge, 
the only effort made by the School Board, then, to integrate 
the faculties is to get voluntary compliances by the teachers 
in response to these questionnaires that they send out ?

A Well, Mr. Lamberth and I both spoke over our tele­
vision, urging them—telling them of the problem and urg­
ing them to help us in its solution, and I would hope that 
as time goes by that all of these teachers will recognize that 
their duty is to educate children, and then at some time we 
will be able to assign the teachers where they can do the 
best job for the system. This is what the plan says and this 
is the interim period we’re going through now.

Q Now, as to the new teachers coming into the system, 
are they given the same opportunity to choose a school that 
they want to go to ?



App. 74

A No, I think probably, from a personnel standpoint, 
a new teacher may accept some direction maybe a little 
quicker than a teacher who has been with us a long time. 
This, here again, is an individual personnel matter. I don’t 
think, based on the experience we’ve had, that it’s probably 
very educationally sound to put a brand-new teacher out of 
college into an unfamiliar situation. We found that this has 
not worked out particularly well educationally. So I would 
think that Mr. Brewster will be very careful in the selection 
and the placement of his new teachers.

Q So then the new teacher, when she comes in, she is 
also given the option of whether or not she wishes to be as­
signed to a school where the majority of the children are a 
different race ?

A If  that is her ultimate refusal to do so and if it 
appears from our situation that we need this teacher for 
the overall good of our system, I would imagine that Mr. 
Brewster will hire her. There may be other cases where the 
teacher might be not in the top group that we’re hiring but 
in the lower group, and when she refused or said that she 
wouldn’t do this before coming into the system, it might be 
that he would say, “Well, we’ll hire somebody else then.” 
This is his job. This is the administration’s job. They—

Q But I mean as Chairman of the School Board, you 
have some idea of the—

A They’re operating under our policy to hire, assign 
and transfer faculty based on qualifications and not based 
on race.

Q So then Mr. Brewster has this wide latitude of 
selecting persons ?

A Mr. Brewster has to report to Dr. Ray, who reports



App. 75

to Mr. Lamberth. These are administrative matters that 
are handled under the policy laid down by the School Board.

Q Just one or two more questions. Now, Mr. Thomas, 
as Chairman of the School Board, does the Board have 
any definite goal in the area of time for complete desegre­
gation of the schools ?

A No, I don’t see how we can set any goal. We have 
taken on what we thought that we could do and I think, by 
and large, have succeeded relatively well during the past 
year. We plan to continue with that. This is bound to be 
a long-time proposition. W e’ve got to go from where we— 
from here to there and you’ve got to travel the road to get 
there.

Q Would the same be true as to faculty ?
A Well, that’s what I was speaking of—was faculty.

Q W hat do you consider the main impediment toward 
a more rapid integration of faculty, sir ?

A Well, we’ve talked about the individual choice— I 
mean the individual desires of these employees of the School 
System who are not captive. These are people who have a 
choice, just like an employee of the Naval Base or my com­
pany or anybody else. They are largely discretionary and 
there are other jobs available. Norfolk has very little un­
employment now. We have very fast-growing school sys­
tems all around us. There are plenty of opportunities for 
teachers and as the community itself accepts this matter of 
desegregation, then it will become easier and more natural.

Q Now, do I—
A But as far as my putting down a timetable about it, 

it’s— I see no way that I can do that.



App. 76

Q Do I glean from what you say, then, sir, that you 
will move no faster than what you believe the community 
will accept; is that the idea ?

A No, no, I say that I think what the community will 
accept will have a great deal of influence on what the 
teachers will accept.

Q Well, what about the action of the School Board?
A The School Board—-

Q Is that predicated on what the community will accept 
also?

A The School Board’s policy is to hire, assign and 
transfer teachers based on their qualifications and their 
suitability for the job at hand. Each teacher is—they’re 
not signed in blanket. They are assigned individually and, 
as I say, I ’m no professional educator, but just what little 
I know about personnel matters—and you’re dealing with 
professionals here—it’s—you have to handle the situation 
very carefully to accomplish what you want to accomplish. 
And then there’s the matter of certification, and so forth, 
that’s got to be taken into account, too.

Q Well, I notice that you assigned seven white teachers 
to Booker T. Washington. I imagine, from what you said 
before, all of those seven indicated that they would be willing 
to go?

A Yes, I— I don’t have direct knowledge of that, but 
I assume that they agreed to go where they were assigned 
and where we thought they could do a job or where the 
administration thought they could.

Q And you have two Negro teachers at Granby. So I 
take it, then, the same thing would apply, that only two 
Negroes indicated that they would be willing to teach 
at Granby?



App. 77

A  Well, the high school situation is complicated on 
certification matters. You have a French teacher and if 
you’re going to switch, you’ve got to get two French teach­
ers, and so this is why-—although, you would think it would 
be easy to do it in high school, it’s much more difficult to 
integrate the faculty successfully and professionally in high 
school than in your elementary school.

Q Well, you gave a good example if you had two French 
teachers. If  you taught French at Booker T., would there 
be any difference from teaching French at Granby? French 
is French, isn’t it?

A T hat’s right, yes.

Q So then you could easily make a switch much more 
easier on the high school level, could you not ?

A Providing the two teachers, in the opinion of the 
administration, could succeed in the other situation. You 
must admit that there’s some difference in the situation 
as far as the teacher is concerned. I t’s a personnel matter. 
You’ve got a whole lot of things to—

Q And there again—
A —I mean this is the way you would accomplish it, 

is by switching French teachers or having a vacancy because 
this one got married and then move this one and put the 
other one in over here.

Q Now, has the School Board laid down any standards 
for Mr. Brewster to follow or he just follows it on his own 
because of his peculiar knowledge he may have or may 
not have ?

A No, other than the plan which has been approved 
as the policy of the School Board.

Q Well, has the School Board taken any steps to en­
courage Mr. Brewster to effectuate a more effective or a



App. 78

more adequate equal distribution of the teachers to effectu­
ate the desegregation of the faculties ?

A Oh, I believe that Mr. Lamberth, in his administra­
tive conferences and in his talks to his teachers, urges this 
matter. This is not something that we are trying—did a 
little bit of and are stopping. We intend to continue where 
we can find suitable teachers.

Q Now, just to the senior high school map there for 
just a minute, Mr. Thomas. I believe, either in your plan 
or some letter that was written, that you stated that you 
would encourage and take the children who live south of 
the eastern branch—that you would take them on field trips 
to let them go over to see Lake Taylor School and so they 
would recognize Lake Taylor as a good school, and so forth, 
and could go if they wanted to go. Am I correct in that ?

A Yes, we will—we have a freedom of choice plan as 
far as these students are concerned. I f  we are to be straight­
forward about it, I see no reason for not letting them know 
what their choice is. As we understand the law, we cannot 
influence their choice in any way, but an informational pro­
gram we will certainly be willing to put on.

Q Well, is there any definite reason why those children 
cannot be assigned over there ?

A Well, none, other than that the School Board does 
not intend to assign them over there.

Q That’s the only reason—the School Board does not 
intend to assign them ?

A Well, we feel that is not germane to the whole 
plan. I t’s something that’s brought in extraneously and has 
no part in the plan as far as we are concerned. We have 
given every—what we said we would do all along-—give 
every Negro child a meaningful choice of an integrated



App. 79

situation. We don’t intend to discriminate for or against 
that group over there by sending them out to Lake Taylor 
any more than we would for another group on the other 
side of the river. They have the choice.

Q You spoke about certain conferences held with mem­
bers of the Negro community on the Booker T. Washington 
change of site.

A No, I didn’t say the change of site.

Q Are those conferences—well, of a new Booker T., 
put it that way. Are those conferences still planning or are 
they still being held, sir ?

A As far as I know, with the administration, since 
they’re talking about what is going into the school—the 
program and the interior—I believe Mr. Lamberth is keep­
ing the committee informed as to the thinking of the ad­
ministration and getting their ideas and seeing what ac­
commodations can be made.

Q But so far as the particular site is concerned, that’s 
a closed matter as far as the School Board is concerned?

A As far as the School Board is concerned, yes.

Q Now, Mr. Thomas, did anybody threaten you of 
cutting off federal funds if the school site were changed 
or anything ?

A When-—-when we’re negotiating school matters—

Q I didn’t mean to upset you.

T he Court: Did that question floor you, Mr. Thomas?
A When we’re talking school matters with the repre­

sentatives of a powerful organization like the NAACP, who 
has very many friends in Washington, and with the repre­
sentatives of the Justice Department, who are representa­



App. 80

tives of the government, and knowing that there is abroad 
in the land today a great deal of cutting off funds and with­
holding payments and everything, we are bound to feel, 
when we are pushed to the wall on something that we might 
consider to be—

Q (By Mr. Madison) I hate to cut you off, Mr. Thomas, 
but I think you answered my question.

Mr. Davis: If  Your Honor please, he asked the question.

M r. Madison : I asked the question, did anybody threaten 
him. I didn’t ask for all this.

T he  Court: Nobody said anybody had threatened him.

Mr. Davis : He is answering it.
A I will say— I ’ll say that I have received no direct 

threats, but that I must feel implied threats in any con­
frontation with—

T he  Court: In order to clear the record, Mr. Madison, 
let it be understood that no representative of the School 
Board, no school superintendent or assistant superintendent 
or school counsel mentioned this to me. I told Mr. Ryan 
where I got the information from. He knows where I got the 
information from and it’s higher up than the School Board.

By Mr. Madison :
Q Well, you have answered my question, then. This was 

just something that you thought of that might happen, but 
nobody told you that ?

A No, no.

Mr. Madison : All right, I have no further questions. 
Just a minute. I have no further questions.

T he Court: Mr. Ryan, do you have any questions?



App. 81

Mr. R yan : No questions, Your Honor.

T he Court: Mr. Goldblatt.

cross-examination 

By M r. Goldblatt :
Q Mr. Thomas, I believe you indicated that you had 

concerned yourself with the law and with the organization 
these gentlemen represent with the Justice Department. I 
am interested in what manner did you consult the wishes 
of the people affected by this in the Bay View, Riverview 
and Winona areas, sir.

A They were not consulted directly, Mr. Goldblatt. 
When—you want me to keep on ?

Q Go ahead, sir. I asked you the question.
A The matter of—we haven’t redrawn high school lines 

for a long time. W e’ve had a lot of redrawn elementary 
schools and some junior high schools that have dislocated 
some people and we’ve had mild protests. Now, we have 
brought a new high school into the system which we had 
hoped would be a matter of great rejoicing and happiness 
in the city. Unfortunately, in putting that high school on the 
line, we have had to move some children around. It cer­
tainly has been no fun for me and the administration to 
listen to the testimony today.

Q I recognize that.
A It makes us feel like ogres. However, we have the 

duty of educating all the children of Norfolk, which we 
do to the best of our ability, and in redrawing the lines, 
you just have to redraw the lines and we have done this 
in a professional manner, based on professional advice, and 
some parents and children must, in their opinions, suffer.



App.82

I know of no restitution that we can make other than to 
promise that in the high schools to which they are assigned 
that we will run the best educational program that we can.

Q Mr. Thomas, I think, when you say some of the resi­
dents must suffer, you mean, of course, that they be at a 
disadvantage in this setup ?

A Well, in their eyes, a dislocation in this case that they 
may not w ant; in another case some other parents may like 
the dislocation.

Q All right, sir. But from what you know, sir, with 
your position and experience as Chairman of the School 
Board and this problem, you do know, as a fact, do you not, 
that the overwhelming majority of the Bay View residents 
are opposed to what you gentlemen on the School Board 
have done? Isn’t that a fact, sir?

A I accept that, yes, sir.

Q Now, you could not, then, under your plan, give the 
choice to those people in the Bay View section or the River- 
view section or the Winona section as to where they’d want 
their children to go? You could not do that, could you?

A No, sir.

Q I see. So, actually, what motivated you gentlemen 
was the Lake Taylor School and the problem—the integra­
tion problem? T hat’s what it is, isn’t it, the combination of 
the two things ?

A That is right, fitting the new school into the overall 
desegregation plan.

Q Surely. Now, do you feel that the problem that the 
School Board has can only be answered in this manner? 
Is this the only answer to it-—to say to these people, “You



App. 83

have no choice as to where you child will go” and to say 
to another group that “You have a choice of any school to 
which you want to go” ? Do you think that will answer the 
problem of satisfying the people ?

A Mr. Goldblatt, we walk a very thin line and the 
direction that we get from all sources is not definitive, to 
say the least. So what we do we’re trying to do with all good 
faith—• good will and with the best information that we 
have. We want to do the best job we can for all of our 
citizens.

Q Yes, sir.
A —and at the same time we recognize a duty to move 

from a dual school system to a unitary school system and 
extraordinary measures have to be taken to accomplish it. 
This is—and in our best opinion, this was the way to do it, 
based on the best professional advice that we could get.

Q Well, actually, sir, the way it has worked out, it can 
only be accomplished by causing great dissatisfaction 
amongst the people of these areas who have no choice; isn’t 
that what the result is ?

A  I recognize that result. Hopefully, in three years—

Q Now—
A —they will be acclimated to the school they’re in 

and would not want to fight us if we moved them again.

Q Now, from your observation and knowledge, where 
do you think the children of Booker T. Washington—where 
will those students go now that they would be given the 
choice ? W hat schools would they go to ?

A I think most of them will choose the school that’s 
convenient. This is what we find—that of all the reasons for 
going anywhere, people want to go to the one that’s most



App. 84

convenient. Now, some will choose out. I have no doubt 
that there will be some that will choose Lake Taylor; there 
may be some that choose Nor view; there may be some that 
choose Granby.

Q I see.
A This is just a matter of an educated guess on our 

part and it may be completely wrong.

Q I see. Now, I believe one of these gentlemen—I think 
it was— I forget who it was—spoke of having transferred 
or, rather, some of the government children will be—will 
be removed from other schools and go to Granby. Am I 
correct ?

A Yes, sir.

Q And have you any idea how many of those such stu­
dents there are ?

A No, sir.

Q I see. Well, of course, their going to the Granby 
School would displace others who are now there and will 
be subject to transfer? Isn’t that the way that will work 
out?

A Well, I don’t—

Q I mean in effect ?
A In effect, yes. I mean we are—we are drawing new 

lines and bringing a new school into the system. There are 
many things that have to be satisfied in order to do this.

Q I see, sir. Now, you have had delegations call at the 
School Board and on you personally, I have no doubt, in 
this connection, have you not ?

A Yes, sir.

Q And my last question to you is this: Is there any 
doubt in your mind that the overwhelming majority of



App. 85

these people—Bay View, Winona and Riverview—are op­
posed to the School Board’s plan?

A No, sir.

M r. Goldblatt : Thank you, sir.

T he Court: Anything else of Mr. Thomas, gentlemen? 

Mr. Davis : I have no other questions.

Mr. Madison : We have no other questions.

T he Court: Thank you, Mr. Thomas.
*  *  *

[tr . p p . 323-346]
Allen H. Wetter

called as a witness by and on behalf of the defendants, hav­
ing been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as 
follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

By Mr. D avis:
Q Doctor, if you will state your name and address, 

please.
A Allen H. Wetter, 4324 Tyson Street, Philadelphia. 

Tyson is T-y-s-o-n.

Q Doctor, if  you will, may I go into a little bit of your 
—what I may call personal history briefly, sir. Where were 
you born ?

A I was born in Philadelphia.

Q Where have you lived all during your life ?
A I ’ve lived in Philadelphia all my life.

Q Where did you attend school ?
A I attended schools in Philadelphia.



App. 86

Q W hat Colleges did you attend and what degrees do 
you have ?

A I attended the University of Pennsylvania and 
Temple University. I received by bachelor’s and master’s 
degree from Temple. I took doctorate work but never fin­
ished the dissertations, so four colleges gave me honorary 
degrees. I ’m an honorary doctor.

Q How many honorary degrees do you have ?
A Four, Beaver College, Temple University, Drexel 

Institute of Technology and St. Joseph’s College.

Q Are they Doctors of Education or Doctors of Law 
or—

A Letters, laws, literature, and so forth.

Q That about covers the field of doctorate degrees—
A Yes, I ’m afraid so.

Q —doesn’t it ?
A  Yes, sir. Just call me “Mister,” it’s quite all right.

Q All right, sir. Have you ever taught in the schools of 
Philadelphia ?

A Yes, sir, I taught at the three levels of the school 
system. I served as a principal in each of four schools. You 
want me to go on ?

Q Yes, sir.
A I served as a district superintendent, as assistant to 

the superintendent, as associate superintendent and super­
intendent from 1955 to 1964, nine years. I retired.

Q W hat professional organizations do you belong to?
A Quite a number; the National Education Association, 

American Association of School Administrators, Phila­



App. 87

delphia—the Pennsylvania State Education Association, the 
Schoolman’s Club of Philadelphia. I am on the Board of 
Trustees of three college groups and one hospital.

Q Have you ever done any consulting work ?
A In Washington last year, I went to the Office of Edu­

cation for about—about eight or nine occasions—-I don’t re­
call exactly—at their request.

Q Have you done any writing ?
A Well, the usual magazine articles, things of that 

nature. For fun, I ’ve written operettas.

Q W hat is the situation in the City of Philadelphia with 
regard to whether or not the schools there are segregated or 
integrated ?

A Well, through the years, we like to believe that the 
schools have been integrated. When I was a boy, I went to 
Central High School and some of my classmates were 
Negro boys; they were my chums, and through the years we 
had said that the schools were integrated. As a matter of 
fact, up until perhaps twenty-five years ago, they were 
rather segregated because at that time there were separate 
schools, although a child could go to any school he wished. 
In more recent times, of course, there has been more inte­
gration, but it is far from complete. We have 275,000 
students at the present time in the City of Philadelphia. Of 
course, the population has changed because of mobility, 
and in 1915, six percent of the boys and girls were Negro 
children; in 1967, fifty-eight percent plus happened to be; 
and this has caused a great change to take place. A fter the 
great Supreme Court decision came, it was decided to do 
everything possible to make integration extend further in 
the city. I ’m sorry to say that in 1961, the Philadelphia 
Chapter of the NAACP did not feel that the schools had



App. 88

done all that they possibly could, and suit was brought in 
Federal Court before Judge Wood. He decided that every 
year the organization should make two reports and the 
school should make two reports. I saw in the paper the 
other night that the schools have made the reports but the 
association has only made one report. In 1963, Mr. Cecil 
Moore, Chairman of the NAACP, said that the schools 
had not—

M r. Madison : Now, if Your Honor please—

T he W itn ess : Right.

Mr. Madison: —may we inquire of Mr. Davis what 
all this has to do with this suit, sir? It is interesting for 
the citizens perhaps of Philadelphia, but I see no logical 
connection with the case we have here to go and discuss 
what’s happening there, sir. It is totally irrelevant to the 
issues that are before the Court now, sir.

T he  Court: Well, I am inclined to agree, Mr. Davis. 
I f  we had to take every city in the United States and state 
what is going on there and state individual views as to 
whether such and such a faction is operating effectively 
and whether the desegregation or integration program, 
whichever one you want to call it, is or is not successful, I 
fear we would be here for many, many days, and I think that 
you can specifically ask the good doctor specific questions as 
to how Philadelphia operates as contrasted or compared 
with Norfolk and then ask him the success or the lack 
of success as to that particular program, but to go into the 
entire setup, I don’t believe I could permit that.

Mr. Davis: If Your Honor please, I, of course, had no 
purpose of going into the entire setup. However, it did seem 
to me that it would be appropriate to compare the operation



App. 89

and the results of the plan for desegregation which Norfolk 
has with the situation in a city which has never had a segre­
gated system. I will be happy to do as the Court suggests and 
go into the specific questions. I think probably that is what 
Dr. W etter was leading up to.

By Mr. Davis:
Q Dr. W etter, are you familiar with the plan for the 

desegregation of the schools of the City of Norfolk?
A I have studied carefully the plans that you permitted 

me to see. They’re the ones which have been presented 
through these hearings and I have talked at length with 
you and with Mr. Lamberth and with other members of the 
staff. I think I have a fairly good knowledge of what you’re 
doing.

Q W hat is your opinion with regard to the effectiveness 
of this plan which the Norfolk School Board proposes?

Mr. Marsh : Your Honor, I hate to interrupt, but Mr. 
Davis has asked Dr. W etter for an opinion question, mean­
ing that he is offering him as an expert. I do not believe the 
testimony we have heard from Dr. W etter so far estab­
lishes him as an expert either in the area of school desegrega­
tion of faculties or in the area of personnel administration, 
and I do not believe that we have heard enough at this point 
to accept Dr. W etter as an expert, and I would object to any 
opinion question until we can establish Dr. W etter as an 
expert.

T he Court : Well, he’s established it as far as I am con­
cerned, but I think you are entirely correct. I f  you would 
like to now cross-examine him solely as to his experience—

Mr. Marsh : I want to know in what capacity—



App. 90

T he Court : If he is not an expert, I do not know of any 
gentleman who would be who has been in the field as long as 
he has. I remember—it wasn’t in this case but in the Ports­
mouth School case— Mr. Marsh, you brought the gentleman 
down here. W hat was his name ? Dr. Conrad ?

Mr. Marsh : You’re talking about another case now, 
Your Honor.

T he Court: Yes. Well, I accepted him as an expert, 
didn’t I?

Mr. Marsh : Dr. Conrad, yes, he qualified as an expert 
and—

T he Court: Well, he didn’t have one-tenth the exper­
ience that this gentleman has had.

Mr. Marsh : Your Honor, I am not attempting to get 
into the Portsmouth case now. I think, though, that D r.—-

T he  Court: In fact, Dr. Conrad came from Phila­
delphia.

Mr. Marsh : No, Dr. Conrad did qualify as an expert. 
He had been working with personnel problems—

T he Court: Well, I—

Mr. Marsh : -—and his job with the association in W ash­
ington— Dr. W etter has not indicated any experience work­
ing with personnel problems.

T he  Court: Superintendent of the Philadelphia School 
System from 1955 to 1964, and then he was Assistant 
Superintendent and Division Superintendent and principal 
of four schools, you say he’s never had any personnel prob­
lems?



App. 91

Mr. Ma rsh : Your Honor, I submit—Your Honor, I 
submit that there are hundreds of superintendents of cities 
all over the country. There are hundreds of principals who 
have gone up to superintendents, but they are not experts 
either in personnel administration or in desegregation. The 
fact that you have been a superintendent of schools for 
nine years does not qualify you as an expert in either of 
the areas we are concerned with here. If  so, then all super­
intendents are experts.

T he  Court: The question is how expert an expert is, 
I suppose, is for the man who has to determine it, which, 
in the lower level at least, is myself. I will let you cross- 
examine him in due time, but let’s move along.

Mr. Marsh : Well, I would like for Mr. Davis, if pos­
sible, Your Honor, to indicate what area is he offering Dr. 
W etter as an expert. I am not too clear at this point. An 
expert in what, sir ?

Mr. Davis: I am offering him, if Your Honor please, 
as an expert in professional educational fields, in school 
administrative fields, in school personnel fields, in the field 
of desegregation or integration, whichever term may be 
desired, in any other field that is connected with the public 
school system.

Mr. Marsh : Your Honor then I request the right to 
test his qualifications in those areas, if that is the way Mr. 
Davis is offering him. I request the right to do that at this 
time.

T he Court: All right, you may go ahead. I think that is 
the usual procedure—to test it. Make it brief, Mr. Marsh.

Mr. Marsh : Yes, sir.



App. 92

T he Court: It is purely a question for the trial court 
to determine whether a person is qualified as an expert.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

By Mr. Marsh :
Q Dr. W etter, in the area of school administration, 

have you—school personnel problems, have you written any 
books at all on this subject ?

A No, sir, I have not written books. I wrote a pamphlet 
for the Board of Education several years ago called “For 
every child, the story of integration in Philadelphia.” It is 
not a book. It is a pamphlet about twenty pages.

Q This was with respect to integration generally?
A W ith respect to integration in the public schools of 

Philadelphia—the story.

Q Now, with respect to personnel administration prob­
lems, are you familiar with the outstanding literature in 
the area in the country ?

A Well, I have had occasion to use it constantly, but 
Pm not giving you a list of writings in this field at the 
present time.

Q Well, would you give me any writings, sir, in this 
field?

A I don’t see that that makes me an expert. I ’ve served 
with thousands of teachers and children. I saw that they 
got in their proper places; I worked with it day after day, 
and I ’m not here to give you a story on literature which I 
have read.

Q Are you familiar with the book entitled “Staff Per­
sonnel in the Public Schools”—

A No.



App. 93

Q —written by Willard S. Elsbree ?
A I know Elsbree very well, from Columbia, retired.

Q Are you familiar with the book—
A I ’ve known of his story.

Q Are you familiar with that book, sir ?
A No, sir.

Q Are you familiar with the book entitled “Principles 
of Staff Personnel Administration in Public Schools” ?

A I have not been reading this literature purposely 
in the last year or two. I ’m retired.

Q Well, would you give me—
A I ’ve worked for forty-seven years.

Q Yes, sir. Would you give me any of the literature 
that you’ve ever read in the area of personnel administra­
tion?

A I ’m sorry, I have no answer to give you.

Q And your experience in personnel administration is 
as Superintendent of the Philadelphia School System?

A A sa  principal, as a district superintendent, who had 
charge of the setting of the boundaries within a district, had 
charge of recommending teachers that went there, had 
charge of rating the teachers there, had charge of seeing 
that organizations were set up, had charge of meeting with 
parents, had charge of developing integration procedure. 
This same thing happened as assistant to the superintendent, 
when I had charge of public relations, called “human rela­
tions” in those days, in which case I had to go out among 
the parents and organize them and get them working on 
programs such as you’ve been talking about here and also 
working with the newspapers and with radio and television,



App. 94

doing that kind of thing, very much having to do with 
integration, and as associate superintendent, I had respon­
sibilities of this nature, too, and a superintendent can’t oper­
ate a school system unless he knows about integration, about 
how people work together in a school system.

Q So you are not familiar with any of the articles in 
personnel admiinstration ?

T he  Court: Let’s have order in the court, please. Mr. 
Marsh, he has answered that question.

Mr. Marsh : Yes, sir.

By Mr. Marsh :
Q W ith respect to your qualifications as an expert in 

the area of desegregation, sir, is your experience limited to 
the Philadelphia situation with respect to the school—public 
school desegregation ?

A Did I experience what? W hat was your question, 
again please ?

Q W ith respect to your qualifications as an expert in 
the area of public school desegregation, is your experience 
limited to the Philadelphia School System?

A Yes, sir, it is.

Q Are you familiar with the landmark cases in the 
area of public school desegregation ?

A Well, I have been familiar with them and I tried to 
be of assistance when I went down to Washington last year.

Q Are you familiar with the principles enunciated by 
the Supreme Court in the recent series of cases decided 
within the past year ?

A I ’ve been reading about them in the newspapers.



App. 95

Q Well, what do you understand to be the principle of 
the Supreme Court in the case of Bradley versus School 
Board of the City of Richmond, which was decided last 
year?

A I ’m sorry, I don’t have the answer.

Q W hat do you understand to be the principle enun­
ciated by the Supreme Court in the recent case involving—

T he Court: Mr. Marsh, I do not want to interrupt you, 
but this gentleman is not a lawyer; he is not a Supreme 
Court Justice; he is not even a lowly federal judge like I 
am, but the fact that a man may not know what the Su­
preme Court says—the Supreme Court of the United 
States has never yet defined “integration.”

Mr. Ma rsh : Your Honor, you and I might disagree on 
that, sir.

T he Court : Beg your pardon ?

Mr. Marsh : I said you and I might disagree on whether 
the Supreme Court has done that or not.

T he  Court: If you can show me the definition, I would 
be delighted to have it and I would be delighted to see it 
at any time you can show me the definition of “integration” 
as stated by the United States Supreme Court. I would 
like to see it, and I am like this witness—if the definition of 
“integration” appears in a Supreme Court of the United 
States case, then I must admit I have missed it.

By Mr. Marsh :
Q Well, let’s look at the Fourth Circuit decisions. Are 

you familiar with any of the decisions of the Supreme— 
of the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Cir­
cuit which would govern this area ?



App. 96

Mr. Davis: I f  Your Honor please, I am going to object 
now.

T he Court : Objection sustained.

Mr. Davis : This gentleman—sir ?

T he Court : Objection sustained.

By Mr. Marsh :
Q Dr. W etter, are you familiar with the district court 

decisions which would—

T he Court : Objection sustained.

Q (By Mr. M arsh) Dr. W etter, do you agree with the 
Supreme Court decision in Brown versus Board of Educa­
tion?

Mr. Davis: Objection.

T he  Court: Objection sustained.

Mr. Marsh : Your Honor, if this witness is being offered 
as an expert in public school desegregation, I think we have 
a right to know if he believes in public school desegregation.

T he Court: Mr. Marsh, you are not, sir. The law is 
what the law says it is. It doesn’t make any difference 
whether this witness likes it, whether I like it, whether 
you like it or anybody else. The law is there.

M r. Marsh : Your Honor, we submit—

T he  Court : And it is my duty to follow the law. I have 
been trying to follow it for eleven years, but this witness 
is not responsible for it and whether he likes it or not, it is 
the law of the land. Go on to the next question.

Mr. M arsh : Your Honor, we would like to take excep­
tion to the Court’s ruling.



App. 97

T he  Court: Yes, you take—everybody takes exception.

Mr. Marsh : We submit that it makes a difference, as 
far as this testimony is concerned, whether he agrees with 
the decision or not, and we submit that we have a right 
to know whether this witness, who is offered as an expert in 
the area of public school desegregation agrees with the 
decision which is responsible for this.

T he Court: I have ruled on that. You took exception to 
it. Do you have any other questions as to the gentleman’s 
basic qualifications as an educator and his experience in 
the field of education?

By Mr. Marsh :
Q Doctor, you mentioned the two schools that you at­

tended. Which degrees did you get from which schools, sir ? 
I don’t believe you mentioned that.

A Bachelor of Science, Master of Science in Educa- 
cation—-

Q Which school—
A Temple University.

Q — did you get the Bachelor of Science ?
A Temple University, as to both of them.

Q And what was the master’s ?
A In education, Master of Science in education.

Q And I believe you indicated you did not get your 
doctorate degree ?

A No, I did everything but the dissertation.

Mr. Marsh : Your Honor, we submit that this witness 
is not qualified as an expert in any of the areas in which 
he is offered, and we object to any attempt to have him 
offered—answer an opinion question.



App. 98

T he Court: The objection is overruled. You may pro­
ceed, Mr. Davis.

Mr. Marsh : Note our exception.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

By Mr. Davis :
Q Doctor, you testified that you are familiar with 

the plan for desegregation of the Public Schools of Nor­
folk as amended and as proposed by the School Board of 
the City of Norfolk. W hat is your opinion with regard to 
the effectiveness of this plan in solving the problem of 
desegregation of schools ?

A Well, speaking in the light of my experiences 
through the years, I think that Norfolk has made very 
wonderful progress in a short time. W hat I wanted to 
say was that the great city, like all of the great cities, even 
though they have done much, nevertheless have not done 
any better than Norfolk has done at this time in general 
terms. I think what—when you have integration programs 
in twenty out of your schools—twenty of your schools in
1964 and twenty-six in—twenty-six out of seventy-one in
1965 and thirty-one out of seventy-one in 1966, that you’re 
moving ahead and moving ahead well. This is my impres­
sion. Prior to that time, I understand that you had a dual 
system and I think this indicates remarkable progress. I 
am talking about pupils at the present time. I think that 
your attendance districts have been set up exceedingly well. 
May I say something about how they’re set up in Phila­
delphia ?

Q Yes, sir.
A In Philadelphia, it has been the custom through the 

years for the district superintendent—there are eight dis­



App. 99

trict superintendents. Each has charge of one-eighth of 
the city; about thirty-five to forty thousand pupils there. 
This district superintendent meets with his principals and 
they set up the original boundaries for each elementary 
school, sitting there together. They do it largely in terms of 
numbers as they see it. They meet now and then to make 
changes when they think it’s necessary. They do think of 
integration problems. They are thinking in terms of trying 
to foster integration every way they can. Senior high 
schools and junior high schools are set up by the associate 
superintendent in charge of that area, with the help of 
district superintendents, but again it is something which 
extends out from a core which happens to be the school 
itself. It extends out, and boundaries are irregular as they 
are on your maps, but in those cases, you have a great 
many boundaries because you have many schools and you 
don’t have attendance areas. I think the attendance area, 
to my mind—and I may be wrong, sir—this is p e rso n a l- 
gives far more choice than the kind of attendance officer 
which we happen to have in the big city and that does not 
say Philadelphia schools are not doing a good job. They 
are. On the other hand, I picked up some news items just 
the other day. It said that in Philadelphia in 1966 there 
were 154 schools, with ninety percent or more of one race, 
either white or Negro. Of these schools, twenty-four were 
one hundred percent Negro, and another forty were ninety- 
nine percent Negro. There were twenty-three all-white and 
fourteen more with ninety-nine percent white. Now, I ’m 
trying to say that in this great city, even though they have 
been striving and working hard in many ways to achieve 
integration—and I believe in integration—-I don t think, 
in general terms, they have done so well as has the group 
here in the City of Norfolk, and I believe Norfolk is going



App. 100

to move ahead. I believe that the people in charge are going 
to work hard. I got that impression from everyone with 
whom I’ve talked— “We want to do this; we want to get 
it through.”

Q W hat is your opinion with regard to the phase of 
the Norfolk plan which deals with the faculties ?

A Again, there has been a considerable moving ahead 
here. I noted from the records which you’ve had that in 
Norfolk you had faculty—integrated faculties in all of the 
four senior high schools; that you had integrated faculties 
in the eleven junior high schools and that in twenty-eight 
out of fifty-six of your elementary schools, you had inte­
grated faculties.

Now, let me offer just a few thoughts from the other 
which I have gotten from records of the Board generally 
in the newspapers, talking about Philadelphia. In 1967, 
seventeen elementary schools-—of course, they have about 
190—seventeen elementary schools were without a Negro 
teacher or staff member; in 1966, all senior—junior, senior 
and technical high had at least one Negro teacher; how­
ever, three junior highs had only one. Northeast High 
School, in 1967, with 3500 students, has four Negro teach­
ers; Lincoln High School, with 4,000, has one Negro teach­
er. Now, these people are proud of what they’re doing. 
They’re hoping to do more and more and more, but again I 
say that your city down here has done a great deal as I 
compare the smaller city with a larger city. T hat’s the only 
point I ’m trying to make.

Q W hat experience have you had, if any, in connection 
with forcing a teacher, or trying to force a teacher, to go 
where she does not want to go ?

A F irst of all, let me say how teachers are appointed 
in Philadelphia. May I do this ?



App. 101

Q Yes, sir.
A They have a difficult examination system. They have 

the National Teacher’s Examination which is the general 
intelligence, the National Teacher’s in the specific subject 
matter, the Philadelphia W ritten and the Philadelphia Oral, 
after which people appear on a list. However, a person may 
be appointed for a year and take the examination at the 
end of the year in hopes of drawing the person in. Now, in 
recent years, things have been so difficult, there have been 
so many vacancies, I am sorry to say that my beloved city 
in its school system has 1200 vacancies today. Because of 
this, they’re saying, “We won’t appoint anybody to a school 
which has less than three percent vacancies.” In other words, 
the school has to have a great many vacancies, and, there­
fore, they take teachers from the list and say, “These are 
schools with large numbers of vacancies. You can make a 
choice from this series of schools.” This is still done. This 
has been a procedure, but it was done with all schools 
formerly. Now, then if the teacher doesn’t make a choice, 
well, she’s out, that’s all. W ith regard to transfers, certain 
of the folk in Philadelphia said the Board of Education 
should have the power to assign a teacher; say, “You go 
here or else.” Now, we have in Philadelphia at the present 
time the Federation of Teachers, which is a labor movement. 
This is a group which has extreme power there, and they 
have said to the Board of Education, “You can’t force a 
teacher to go anywhere. It has to be voluntary.” Now, they 
suggest that it would be a voluntary program of getting 
people to transfer—people of one racial group to transfer 
to another racial group, and they have been working on 
that—a voluntary program. I t’s working, not nearly so well 
as I ’d like to see it, but it’s working, and they offer certain 
incentives in connection with that to get the people to go



App. 102

down to the other schools, but it is not an easy job these 
days to get teachers. As I say, you have 1200 vacancies and 
frequently, up our way, teachers would prefer to work out 
in the suburbs instead of coming and carrying on the great 
responsibilities, and they are great and they’re very vital 
that you have in the great cities.

Q So your experience has been, you can’t force teachers 
there either ?

A No, sir, you can’t. If  you do it in the city—the large 
city—they will simply say, “I ’m sorry, but I can find a 
job some other place.”

By T he Court:
Q Do the teachers in Philadelphia still have the right, 

I believe that they once did, to make application for a job 
according to the vacancies with respect to the seniority of 
their—

A This has to do with transfers, Your Honor.

Q Transfers?
A Yes, sir, they’re transferred on the basis of seniority. 

Those in longest are the first ones to get the chance at 
transfer.

By Mr. Davis :
Q In spite of all the years in which Philadelphia has 

had integration, do you have any schools in Philadelphia 
which are attended solely by children of one race ?

A Yes, we do. As I said a little while ago, there were 
seventeen white elementary schools and somewhere in here- 
we have a few schools which are virtually all-Negro chil­
dren.

Mr. Davis: Dr. W etter, answer the questions of these 
gentlemen, please, sir.



App. 103

T h e  W i t n e s s  : Right.
*  *  *

Excerpts from Transcript of Hearing on May 26,1967

[ t r . p p . 210-235]
T he Court: Gentlemen, I believe that we meet here 

today for the purpose of the return on a notice given by 
Mr. Davis, counsel for the School Board, in connection 
with the submission of a modified plan. Is that correct? All 
right, Mr. Davis, do you have the modified plan that you 
wish to file at this time ?

Mr. Davis: Yes, Your Honor. This is the modified plan. 
This is a certified copy of the resolution of the School 
Board which adopted the plan and this is a draft of an 
order. Copies of all of those papers have been sent to op­
posing counsel, along with my letter, a copy of which I 
sent to the Court, stating that I would appear today at two 
o’clock and file the modified plan and the resolution and also 
present to the Court, with the request that the Court enter 
it immediately—the order. I have, if this will be of any help 
to you, a copy of the plan prior to its modification, which 
I have marked in red, showing the actual modifications of 
it. I don’t know whether that would be of any help to the 
Court or not, but if it would be, I would certainly be happy 
for you to have this also.

T he  Court : All right, I will be glad to see it. I don’t 
think there is any necessity to file it.

Mr. Davis: If I may, I would like to have that back—

T he Court: Yes.
Mr. Davis : —so I may be able to photostat it.



App. 104

T he Court: Really, the first change that you have from 
the original plan as submitted is on page 7.

Mr. Davis : I don’t remember the pages, but—

T he  Court: Yes.

Mr. Davis : — is that where the high school children are 
provided for ?

T he Court : Yes, senior high school.

Mr. Davis : Senior; senior high school, right.

T he  Court: Yes.

Mr. Davis: Yes, I think that’s right, if Your Honor 
please. Throughout there, you will find minor changes in 
words, such as the addition of “as modified” or “and modi­
fied,” in an effort to identify this plan. I am trying to keep 
these various plans separate now, and this one is called 
“The Plan of the School Board of the City of Norfolk For 
Desegregation of the Public Schools of the City as Amended 
and Modified,” and you will find frequently in there those 
words “and modified.” I did do one other thing, Judge. 
You will remember during the hearing I called to the Court’s 
attention the fact that the choice of school forms and the 
copies of the plan, according to the plan, are to be dis­
tributed to the children prior to May 1st. Well, obviously, 
that could not be done, and the Court, as I recall it, stated 
that it could take care of that situation in its order.

T he Court: Yes.

Mr. D avis: Well, I thought, possibly, if we could put 
that in right at the end of that plan and maybe save the 
trouble of another order by simply stating on, I think, next 
to the last page that the dates of May 1 are, for the purposes 
of this year, considered to be June 7th. I forget exactly what 
page that’s on.



App. 105

T he  Court : Let me ask you one thing. I know, of course, 
it is the policy of the School Board—it’s the longstanding 
policy of the School Board that children about to enter the 
senior high school grade, that is, the senior class of the 
senior high school grade or the twelfth grade—

Mr. Davis: W hat the School Board calls the rising 
senior ?

T he  Court: Yes. Now, the rising seniors—there may, 
by reason of the adoption of the modified plan—unless there 
is some special provision in here to take care of this, cause 
a so-called rising senior to be transferred to some other 
school. That is not consistent with the established policy 
of the School Board.

Mr. Davis: Judge, we put a proviso in there to take 
care of that.

T he  Court : That is what I wanted to find out.

Mr. Davis: Assuming that it was proper to do so, be­
cause all through these hearings, I think it has been recog­
nized that, from an educational point of view, a rising 
senior, so-called, should finish the school in which he rises, 
there being several reasons for it. I think we have been over 
them before.

T he  Court : But that is this modified plan?

Mr. Davis: Yes, sir. Let me—the provisions with respect 
to high school children start on page 7.

T he  Court : That’s correct.

Mr. Davis : And over on page 8, the third line.

T he  Court : I see. I see now.

Mr. D avis: You see one proviso. Now, that first proviso 
takes care of the fact that Lake Taylor Senior High School



App. 106

will not have a twelfth grade for the 1967-68 school year. 
Following that is the second proviso which takes care of 
the situation or is intended to take care of the situation— 
and I believe it does—that we are talking about now.

T he Court: And permits the so-called rising senior to 
graduate from the school in which—

Mr. Davis : Correct.

T he  Court : —he is now attending.

Mr. Davis: Right. It gives to the parent or guardian 
of the rising senior an option—■

T h e  Court : Yes, I understand.

M r. D avis : —to remain, right.

T he  Court: Yes. Now, the other matter I would like 
to question you about— I assume that this plan does not 
make any mention as to what would happen if any particu­
lar senior high school, by reason of the change, should be­
come overcrowded to the point where it could not be handled. 
The contention, of course, of the NAACP was to the effect 
that Booker T. Washington would become overcrowded, 
and I discussed that in my opinion, and Mr. Lamberth, the 
Superintendent of Schools testified with respect to it, and 
I think correctly pointed out that it would not become over­
crowded. Of course, that was in connection with a con­
templated plan that was rejected. Now, I assume that it 
is impossible at the present time to tell exactly what the 
effect of the so-called locking in of the senior high school 
areas would have on capacity. While I suspect that it would 
not seriously affect it, it might. W hat is your view as to 
what the School Board should do in the event a particular 
school— I don’t care whether it is Booker T. Washington or



App. 107

Maury or—the only one we know that will not be over­
crowded is Lake Taylor. We know that that will not be 
overcrowded—

Mr. Davis : Yes.

T he Court : •—but as to the other four, the senior high 
schools, there is always a possibility that they would be 
beyond capacity. I don’t think it necessarily need be in this 
particular proposed plan as modified, but I think every­
body should be permitted to know exactly how that situa­
tion would be handled if it comes up. We never know 
whether it will come up until registration time, but then 
it would require very rapid action, probably not enough 
time for formal hearings, and so forth, and convening 
everybody from here to California and back, and so that 
I would like to know—if you wish to take a moment to con­
fer with Mr. Lamberth—I would like to know and get it 
on the record as to what policy the School Board would 
follow. I am not talking about any one high school. I would 
think the logical thing to do, if there was an overcrowded 
condition, would be to start taking children from the closest 
area to the so-called non-overcrowded school and moving 
from a geographical area so that what it would amount to, 
it might amount to a technical revision of your boundary 
lines in an emergent situation. For example—I have for­
gotten exactly where the line goes between areas IV and V, 
which is the Booker T. and Maury—I think it is St. Paul’s 
Boulevard—-

M r. D avis: May I ask Mr. Lamberth? Do you re­
member ?

Mr. Lamberth : Goes down Monticello to St. Paul, that’s 
right.



App. 108

T he Court: Monticello, on down to St. Paul’s Boule­
vard. Well, let’s assume that one or the other of those 
schools would become overcrowded, then, I take it, that 
what should be done would be a temporary realignment for 
the emergent purpose of meeting the overcrowded condition 
in one school to permit the children nearest that line to be 
siphoned off and put into the other area, if the other area 
can take care of them.

Mr. Davis : I would think that would be the case.

T he  Court : Do you wish to talk to Mr. Lamberth about 
that ? I just want to get the policy on it.

Mr. Davis: I would like to talk to him about it, Judge—

T he Court: Yes.

Mr. Davis : —because that is one of the mechanical prob­
lems that they, of course, are far more familiar with than 
I am.

T he  Court : That is correct. And, of course, if somebody 
doesn’t mention it here, why, somebody else will get up 
in the Court of Appeals and say, “Well, the Judge didn’t 
mention it and nobody said anything about it,” and I would 
rather have it on the record.

Mr. Davis : That’s right. May I do it right here ?

T he  Court: Yes.

(Thereupon, Mr. Davis conferred with Mr. Lamberth.)

Mr. Davis: If  Your Honor please, by any chance would 
you rather hear directly from Mr. Lamberth than from me?

T he  Court : No, I don’t think so. If  you have Mr. Lam- 
berth’s views, that’s all that I—



App. 109

M r. Davis : All right, sir, and if I happen to state them 
incorrectly, he won’t be in contempt.

T he  Court : He will stop you, I am sure.

Mr. Davis: I suspect he will. That’s good. First, if 
Your Honor please, let me say this—and I don’t mean in 
any sense to debate the question—but Mr. Lamberth tells 
me—and the Court may be interested to hear this— that 
another check of the residences of the various children has 
been very recently made and it now does appear that there 
will not be any situation of overcrowding; however, if there 
is, there is a provision in this plan—it’s been in this plan, 
oh, I guess, several years now—it starts at the bottom of 
page 8 and continues over on page 9. It was not put in to 
cover this particular situation.

T he Court: That’s the administrative transfer.

Mr. Davis : That’s right, the paragraph beginning, “The 
School Administration will make such administrative trans­
fers,” and so forth, on through the end of that paragraph, 
and I added here in this paragraph, again, for the purpose 
of conforming it to the other major changes or modifications 
which were made, beginning on the fifth line from the bot­
tom, the words “and provided further that the parent or 
guardian of any child who must be transferred from the 
area in which he resides to another area shall have the same 
choice of schools, if there is any choice.” I added the words 
“if there is any choice” because, of course, there is no choice 
for the high school children.

T he Court : There is no choice for senior high schools 
and that’s the only reason why I raised the question.

Mr. Davis: That’s right. Now, Mr. Lamberth tells me 
that if the schools—any one school should become over­



App. 110

crowded, just as the Court suggested, the School Board 
would endeavor to determine the children who live nearest 
the dividing line between the overcrowded school and the 
school that is not overcrowded and transfer as many of 
those children as might be necessary, without any re­
gard to race or color, with no discrimination, over to the 
uncrowded school.

T he Court : I think that’s as fair as anybody could ex­
pect. Of course, these plans cannot take in every situation. 
We have never discussed the question of the retarded child, 
and so on. I assume that-—-

Mr. D avis: If  Your Honor please, this same administra­
tive transfer provision was put in the plan to take care of 
the retarded child. For example—

T he  Court : That’s right, mental or physical—

Mr. Davis : Right.

T h e  Court : — disability.

Mr. Lamberth : We exercised that.

M r. Davis : And that has been used. Unfortunately, when 
the little child like that presents a problem, the child goes to 
the Department of Adjustive Services. I think you remem­
ber Madge Winslow, who was the head of that department. 
She is retired now, but it is an extremely good department 
and they see what ought to be done, and pursuant to this 
administrative transfer, they take such action as is for the 
best interest of the child.

T he Court: Well now, the only other thing that I am 
interested in-—I notice that none of counsel for the NAACP 
are here today—Mr. Marsh, Mr. Ashe and Mr. Madison 
—although they received notice of this hearing. I under­



App. I l l

stand they feel insulted, and if they do, why, I am sorry, 
but they still are duty-bound to be here when they are sup­
posed to be here. Very frankly, they registered objections to 
certain phases, but I am assuming, gentlemen, that the 
NAACP does not register an objection to the modified plan 
of the School Board that now restricts the senior high 
schools to the area in which they live, and I cannot make 
them personally appear. I was going to suggest that if the 
Civil Rights Division or the United States Attorney, 
through whom the Civil Rights Division acts when appear­
ing in court—and also I was going to suggest to Mr. Gold- 
blatt, who represents Oliver L. Rosso, et als—that if they 
desired or contemplated filing any formal objection to the 
plan as modified and submitted this date, they should be 
granted permission to do so. I have intimated that I would 
approve a plan of this nature, but I think that everybody 
should have an opportunity to present in written form 
formal objections to the modified plan to the same extent 
as though they objected to the original plan as presented. I 
must assume that Mr. Marsh and Mr. Madison and Mr. 
Ashe, while retaining their objections to other phases that 
were disposed of in the Court’s opinion, that they now con­
clude and agree that it is a perfectly constitutional plan to 
require the school lines of the senior high schools to be in 
the manner and form as submitted by this modified plan, and 
I am going to act under that assumption.

Now, Mr. Mason, as far as the United States Attorney 
and the Civil Rights Division, what objections, if any, do 
you have to the modified plan? You registered no objections 
to the previous plan as submitted, but that should not de­
prive the United States Attorney or the Civil Rights Divi­
sion, which was permitted to come in through the Attorney 
General, to file such objections, if any, that they have. Do



App. 112

you have any instructions from Mr. Ryan or Mr. Barrett 
as to that ?

Mr. Mason : Yes, I have some instructions, Your Honor. 
The position of the Justice Department in this matter, as 
far as the order that Mr. Davis has prepared and sent us 
a copy of that he intends to submit, we would agree that 
the form—-that the order is correct as to the form of the 
order in relation to the Court’s memorandum that you have 
filed in this case. As far as the merits of the plan are con­
cerned, of course, we, as the Court has stated, did not object 
to the previous plan, but this is a little different.

T he  Court: Well, then, present your objections, if you 
will, and—

Mr. Mason : Well, I have—we haven’t really had an 
opportunity to fully go into it and study it like we would 
want to to even determine, one, whether we want to object 
or whether—just what the situation is; just what will the 
effect of this plan be.

T he  Court: Mr. Mason, please don’t give me that. We 
are all human. I read where the School Board of the City 
of Norfolk took this action informally on a week ago last 
Friday, I believe.

Mr. Davis: T hat’s right, last Friday, one week from 
today.

T he Court: One week ago today, and it came out in 
the paper and I am sure you sent that clipping in the paper 
to Mr. Ryan, who is the gentleman who was here for the 
Civil Rights Division previously and he is the gentleman to 
whom he and both Mr. Barrett were personally sent a 
notice of intentions—of the intentions of the School Board 
to present this order. Now, where are they?



App. 113

Mr. Mason : Your Honor, they were not—in fact, I 
didn’t know exactly what was going to happen today, other 
than he was going to present his plan and present the order, 
and we figured the order would be entered and there 
wouldn’t be any particular need—

T he Court: I know what Mr. Ryan wants to do and 
Mr. Barrett. They want me to go ahead and enter this 
order and then go to the Court of Appeals and say, “Judge 
Hoffman never gave the Civil Rights Division an oppor­
tunity to object to the modified plan,” and I am giving you 
that opportunity today. I want to know where Messrs. Ryan 
and Barrett are.

Mr. Mason : Well, the last time I talked with them, they 
were in Washington. Now, as far as the government’s posi­
tion in this matter is concerned, as I started to tell Your 
Honor, we haven’t-—-we haven’t adopted a position on the 
matter. We haven’t taken any—

T h e  Court: Well, I am not going to let you file objec­
tions next September. This order must be entered, and I 
know what you are trying to do, and the point would be a 
good one in the Court of Appeals, and you could get up 
there and say, “Well, yes, Judge Hoffman rejected that 
plan and we didn’t file any objections to the original plan, 
if the Court please, but then he went ahead and he didn’t 
give us an opportunity to object to the modified plan,” but 
I am going to stop that gap right now. You are speaking 
for the Attorney General of the United States, aren’t you?

Mr. Mason : I believe—

T h e  Court : —as intervenor ?

Mr. Mason : I believe that we represent the United States 
Attorney’s Office and the Justice Department, yes, sir.



App. 114

T he  Court: Well, then, tell me whether you contem­
plate filing any written formal objections to the modified 
plan. You didn’t file any objections at all to the other plan, 
although you joined in with the NAACP gentlemen in 
urging their positions, and that’s all right, but I am not 
going to be placed in a trap of your getting up to the Court 
of Appeals and having Mr. Ryan get up to the Court of 
Appeals and say, “Well, Judge, Judge Hoffman just went 
ahead and arbitrarily entered this order, approved it, never 
gave us an opportunity to file any objections to it,” so forth 
and so on, and the same—as far as Mr. Tucker and Mr. 
Marsh and Mr. Ashe and Mr. Madison are concerned—not 
so much Mr. Tucker because he didn’t participate— I strong­
ly suspect that there has been another marriage between 
the Civil Rights Division and the NAACP attorneys and 
that you’re laying this trap. Do I understand that the 
NAACP is in accord with this modified plan ?

M r. Mason : Your Honor, we don’t represent the 
N A A CP; we don’t represent the plaintiffs. We represent 
the Justice Department. I don’t know what their position 
is and I wouldn’t prseume to speak for them. I have no 
idea what their views are.

T he Court: Well, I want to give somebody authority 
to speak, but nobody will even show up in court any more.

Mr. Mason : Well, I—

T he  Court: The United States Attorney is here— 
you’re here—but you cannot speak for the Civil Rights 
Division. You cannot speak for the Attorney General of 
the United States.

M r. Mason : I can tell you what our position is at this 
point, and that is all I can do. We only—we received this—



App. 115

they received coipes; I received a copy; we all got copies. 
As far as the Justice Department is concerned, the pro­
cedural posture of the case was a little odd because, of 
course, we did not object to what was—-

T he Court : Well, if the Civil Rights Division will agree, 
through you, that they waive any rights to file any objec­
tions to this modified plan as submitted today and that Judge 
Hoffman has given them an opportunity—now, I agree, 
from a practical standpoint, my opinion said that I would 
approve a modified plan that incorporated substantially what 
has now been submitted, but I am not going to be placed in 
the position of having anybody go to the United States 
Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit and say that Judge 
Hoffman acted arbitrarily; he didn’t give anybody an op­
portunity for a hearing on this modified plan, and so forth, 
and I know that is exactly what is going to come, and I 
assume, by the absence of the lawyers, Messrs. Marsh, 
Ashe and Madison—and there were many others—Mr. 
Greenberg from New York and several others—and Messrs. 
Marsh and Madison are here locally in Norfolk. I have not 
had the courtesy of a telephone call from them advising that 
they would not be here. I don’t know whether Mr. Davis 
has or not.

Mr. Davis: N o, sir.

T h e  Court : You have not.

M r. Davis : I have not heard from any of them, Judge.

T he  Court: D o you know why they are not here?

M r. Mason : I have not talked with any of them myself. 
I have no idea why they are not here. Perhaps they—I don’t 
know. I shan’t speculate. But, Your Honor, may I suggest 
that the matter that the Court has expressed considerable



App. 116

concern about perhaps could be resolved in the manner that 
you resolved it in connection with the plan that was previ­
ously submitted to which we did not object. In that instance, 
as I recall—and you made this apply to everyone—you gave 
the parties, that is, everybody except the city because it 
was their plan, a certain deadline within which to—

T he  Court: Well, Mr. Mason, when are the schools 
going to be opened? That’s what I want to know. This plan 
has to be published. The Civil Rights Division is the one 
that made the Norfolk City School Board go to the expense 
of publishing this plan annually. I have to direct that this 
plan be published. It does no good to publish it after the 
schools have opened in the fall. I just can’t keep this case 
forever and I want to get it on to the Court of Appeals. 
I have read in the paper where the NAACP is going to 
appeal. That is perfectly all right; they’ve got a right to 
appeal. But they also owe a duty and obligation to be here 
in connection with this case and I want this record to show 
that neither Mr. Leonard Ryan or Mr. St. John Barrett of 
the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice are 
here and that you have no authority to speak for them.

M r. Mason : I have told you what they told me, Your 
Honor. I don’t think they will tell you any differently in 
the sense that we hadn’t adopted a position on this thing.

T he  Court: Well, but they previously came into court 
and said they had no objections to the plan as submitted. 
Now, I threw that plan out as unconstitutional. W hether I 
am right or not is of no consequence. That will be decided 
by the Court of Appeals, and so I called upon them for the 
submission of a modified plan and the Civil Rights Division 
has had an opportunity to file written objections to the 
modified plan and they haven’t done so. Now, I want to



App. 117

know— I can’t set this down two weeks from now to file 
a modified plan or file objections, and so forth. If  they 
are going to act, let them act. So I tell you what you 
do: You call Mr. Ryan or Mr. Barrett and you tell them 
to be here Monday morning at nine o’clock, personally. Now, 
there must be some action taken in connection with this 
case, and I know what is going on. I need not be advised. 
I want them here personally Monday morning at nine 
o’clock. Do you understand that ?

M r. Mason : I will convey the Court’s message.

T h e  Court: They are lawyers in this case, and with all 
due deference to the United States Attorney’s Office, they 
are like associate counsel in a patent case as far as this 
matter is concerned. They are office boys conveying mes­
sages. I want the man here who can speak, and if they are 
going to have objections, I want them in writing submitted 
at nine o’clock Monday morning, and while I do not think 
you are under any obligation to convey any message to 
Messrs. Marsh, Ashe or Madison, if you wish to convey 
the message, you can tell them also that if they have any 
objections to the modified plan as this day filed and sub­
mitted, they will be here at nine o’clock and present those 
objections in writing. I cannot keep this case forever and 
I am not going to be placed in the proverbial trap, and I 
know what it is.

Now, let’s hear from Mr. Goldblatt.

Mr. Goldblatt : May it please—

T he Court: If  you have any objections that you would 
like to interpose, why, I would be glad to have you file them 
likewise.

Mr. Goldblatt: Thank you, Your Honor, but I will 
say th is : I appeared at the School Board in behalf of my



App. 118

people and was given the opportunity of speaking my views. 
While, of the several options you granted, Your Honor, the 
one I preferred was not the one that the School Board has 
offered you, I have had a full discussion with my clients. We 
feel that Your Honor has removed the inequality that we 
objected to and I wish to say that it is not now our inten­
tion to file objections to the order or any of the modifications 
that Your Honor has today suggested you might put in.

T he  Court: All right, thank you. That takes care of 
that, then. Now, Mr. Davis, I am going to let the modified 
plan be filed and the resolution of the School Board. I 
would be inclined to enter this order today except for what 
I mentioned, but the same power that exists in W ashing­
ton exists in other places, and I think that we should clear 
the decks and make these gentlemen be here who are 
lawyers. And did either of them appear at the School Board 
hearing?

M r. Davis: No, sir. You mean at the meeting last 
Friday?

T he  Court: Yes.

Mr. D avis: N o, sir. You are referring to Mr. Barrett 
and Mr. Ryan. No, they did not appear.

T he  Court: Or Mr. Marsh, Mr. Madison, Mr. Ashe?

Mr. Davis: No, sir, there was no lawyer there who is 
counsel in this case except Mr. Goldblatt. Am I not right, 
Mr. Goldblatt ?

Mr. Goldblatt : That is correct, sir.

Mr. D avis : Mr. Goldblatt was the only one.

T he  Court: All right. Well, I am not going to worry 
about Mr. Ashe and Mr. Madison and Mr. Marsh, and I



App. 119

am not going to convey any further message to them. I am 
going to continue this matter until nine o’clock on Monday 
morning. I think, though, Mr. Davis, in all probability the 
order will be entered, but I am reluctant to enter this order 
until these gentlemen who represent the NAACP and the 
Civil Rights Division are here because I know exactly 
what would happen. I would be criticized for not affording 
an opportunity to file objections to the modified plan and, 
of course, they may correctly state, “Well, the Judge’s 
opinion said that if one of these options was selected, it 
would be approved,” but the record does not indicate any 
objection to the modified plan this day submitted and this 
record should so indicate, and if these gentlemen feel that 
they have any valid reason for a further hearing in light 
of my opinion, I intend to give them that further hearing. If 
they merely want to file a written objection with the under­
standing that the objection be overruled for reasons assigned 
in the opinion and no further hearing is desired, that is 
perfectly all right with me, but I know how some of these 
things operate and, therefore, I am very hesitant to enter 
this order today, although the order, of course, obviously 
is in correct form, and I would be inclined to enter it, and 
I think that you could arrange to get your appropriate ar­
rangements ready, if you haven’t already done so.

Mr. Davis : May I ask you, Judge, two questions about 
that, but may I confer with Mr. Lamberth just a minute, 
please ?

T he  Court: Yes.

M r. Goldblatt: Your Honor, while Mr. Davis is talk­
ing, I don’t think, under the circumstances, I am required 
to be here Monday.

T he Court : No, no.



App. 120

Mr. Goldblatt : I served my purpose.

T he  Court: You stated you have no objection and you 
are excused.

Mr. Goldblatt: Yes, sir.

T h e  Court : O f course, when the Court of Appeals comes 
around, you might be served with a notice of appeal, and 
I will have to let you worry about that.

Mr. Davis: If  Your Honor please, I mentioned a mo­
ment ago about the May 1 dates. Down at the bottom of 
page 10 of this plan—this is this very short paragraph— 
“Because of the present timing, the May 1 dates set forth 
on pages 4 and 5 hereof are changed for the current school 
year to June 7th.”

T he  Court : Yes.

M r. Davis : Is that all right with the Court ?

T he  Court : Yes, that is perfectly all right.

Mr. Davis : All right, sir.

T he  Court: And that is entirely reasonable, but that, 
again, is another matter that if this modified plan comes 
in, if I enter this order—

M r. Davis : Yes, sir, I understand.

T he  Court: —and then everybody will say, “Well, 
Judge Hoffman didn’t give us an opportunity to file any 
written objection to the modified plan that was filed on May 
26, 1967. He just acted on the other plan,” and I have 
learned the hard way that sometimes you have to be keenly 
aware of what other people are trying to do to you in­
directly, and so I will look forward with pleasure to either



App. 121

seeing Mr. Barrett or Mr. Ryan, preferably Mr. Ryan, 
here at nine o’clock on Monday morning.

Mr. Mason: Your Honor, with regard to the time, is 
there—I don’t know what your schedule is—is there any 
possibility it could be, say, like, two in the afternoon?

T he Court: Well, I will have to get my book. I don’t 
even know whether I can hear it at nine o’clock, but I was 
going to push off something at nine to hear this matter be­
cause I think it is of importance.

Mr. Davis: I f  Your Honor please, while he is going for 
your book, you will recall that there is an order which the 
Court entered, providing that the publication of this plan 
would be made in May instead of April. That was the 
second order. F irst it was—

T he  Court: Now it will have to be extended to early 
June.

Mr. Davis: I am not sure about that, but I wanted to 
ask th is : We may be able to get publication in, if the Court 
approves the plan on Monday—we may be able to get it in 
on the 31st of May. If  we cannot, would the Court enter­
tain a further order providing for publication in June ?

T he  Court: Yes, indeed.

Mr. Davis: All right, I will have that here, then, on 
Monday.

T he Court: We are doing the best we can and we cannot 
worry about technicalities like that.

M r. Davis : I understand the school system is closing on 
June 9th. We are so hoping that we cannot only get these 
choice forms—the plan and the choice forms distributed, 
but get these choices back from the parents by June 7th.



App. 122

That is the last day, I am told, when all the students will 
actually be in school. June 8th is a holiday and June 9th 
they only go for their report cards.

T he  Court: Well, Mr. Mason, I will make it at 1:45, 
if that will be of any assistance.

Mr. Mason : Thank you, Judge.

Mr. Davis: Monday, what? May 29th?

T he Court: Yes.

T he Clerk : Yes, sir.

Mr. Davis : 1 :45.

Summary of Inventory of Public School System, dated 
October 12, 1966—School Board Exhibit No. 1

NORFOLK CITY SCHOOLS 
* * * * *

Interdepartment Correspondence Sheet

TO : Mr. E. L. Lamberth, Superintendent of Schools

FRO M : Dr. John C. McLaulin, Director of Educational 
Research

CO PIES TO :

SU B JE C T : Summary of Inventory of Public School Sys­
tems (Federal Survey)

D A TE: October 12, 1966

Pupils

Of the 55,937 pupils reported in membership, 40.3% 
were Negro and 59.7% were white.



App. 123

Five years ago, in September, 1962, the reported ratio 
was 35.3% Negro and 64.7% white.

Of all white pupils enrolled, about 75% attend schools 
enrolling pupils of both races. Of all Negro pupils enrolled, 
about 25% attend schools enrolling pupils of both races. 
Of the total pupils of both races, about 55% attend schools 
which enroll both white and Negro pupils.

Staff

Among a central office staff of 137 professionals, 82% 
are white and 18% are Negro.

A total of 2553 professionals were assigned to the schools 
on a scheduled basis. Of this number, 94% were full-time 
faculty members and 6% were assigned to work at two or 
more schools. Of the total professionals assigned to schools, 
65% were white and 35% were Negro.

Among all white professionals, 23% worked at schools 
where no Negro professional was assigned.

Among all Negro professionals, 22% worked at schools 
where no white professional was assigned.

Among all professionals assigned to schools, 77% worked 
at schools with integrated faculties.

Considering full-time faculty members only, 23% of the 
whites taught in 17 all-white-faculty schools, and 33% of 
the Negroes taught in 11 all-Negro-facuity schools.

SUMMARY, IN V EN TO RY  OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS: 
FA LL 1966 U PD A TE

White Negro Total

Pupils: (September 20, 1966) 33,417 22,520 55,937
Attending All-White-Pupil Schools (13) 8,519
Attending All-Negro-Pupil Schools (24) 16,932
Attending Racially

Integrated Schools (33) 24,898 5,588 30,486



App. 124

W h ite N e g ro T o ta l
Staff:1

Central Office 112 25 137
School Full-Time 1,561 843 2,404
School Part-Time 91 58 149
Total School Staff 1,652 901 2,553
Assigned to All-White

Staff Schools (17) 386.9
Assigned to All-Negro

Staff Schools (8) 197.8
Assigned to Integrated
Staff Schools (45) 1,265.1 703.2 1,968.3

1 Data are for the week September 26-30, 1966

Excerpts from the First Report of The School Board of the City of 
Norfolk for the 1966-67 School Year—School Board Exhibit No. 5

Letter of Counsel for School Board to J udge of 
D istrict Court dated J uly 22,1966

July 22, 1966

Honorable W alter E. Hoffman 
Judge of the United States District Court 

for the Eastern District of Virginia 
U. S. Post Office and Court House Building 
Norfolk, Virginia

R e : Leola Pearl Beckett, etc., et al,
Plaintiffs,

and
Carlotta Mozelle Brewer, et al, 
and
Greta Denise Miller, et al, 
and
United States of America,

Intervenors
v.



App. 125

The School Board of the City of 
Norfolk, Virginia, et al,

Defendants,

Dear Judge Hoffm an:

The School Board of the City of Norfolk has reviewed 
the action which has been taken and the progress which 
has been made under its Plan for Desegregation of the 
Public Schools of the City, and on July 19, 1966 it adopted 
a resolution setting forth in summary form the action and 
progress disclosed by its review and directing that a certi­
fied copy of the resolution, with copies of the attachments 
thereto, be filed with you.

Attached are a certificed copy of the resolution and 
copies of its attachments referred to therein. These are 
filed with the Court as the first report of the School Board 
for the 1966-67 school year.

Respectfully submitted,

/ s /  Leonard H. Davis 
Leonard H. Davis 
City Attorney
Of counsel for the Defendants

LH D  :vcs 
Attachments
CCs: Messrs. S. W. Tucker

Henry L. Marsh, III 
Willard PI. Douglas, Jr.

214 East Clay Street 
Richmond, Virginia 23219

Victor J. Ashe
1134 Church Street 
Norfolk, Virginia 23510



App. 126

J. Hugo Madison 
1017 Church Street 
Norfolk, Virginia 23510

Jack Greenberg 
James M. Nabrit, III 

10 Columbus Circle 
Suite 2030
New York, New York 10019 

St. John Barrett
Room 1607, U. S. Department of Justice 
Washington 25, D. C.

William T. Mason, Jr.
P. O. Box 60
Norfolk, Virginia 23501

W. R. C. Cocke
1200 Maritime Tower 
Norfolk, Virginia 23510

Robert D. Robertson 
1217 Church Street 
Norfolk, Virginia 23510

Vincent J. Thomas 
986 Bellmore Avenue 
Norfolk, Virginia 23504

E. L. Lamberth 
402 E. Charlotte Street 
Norfolk, Virginia 23510

(W ith certified copy of resolution and copies 
of its attachments to each)



App. 127

Resolution of T he School Board of the  City of 
N orfolk, adopted J uly 19,1966

W hereas, on March 17, 1966 The School Board of the 
City of Norfolk aproved and adopted the Plan Of The 
School Board Of The City Of Norfolk For Desegregation 
Of The Public Schools Of The City and the United States 
District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, Nor­
folk Division, approved said P lan ; and

W hereas, the School Board has reviewed the action 
which has been taken and the progress which has been made 
under the Plan to date, and wishes to report this action and 
progress to the C ourt; now, therefore,

Be It R esolved by The School Board of the City of 
N orfolk:

1. That its review of the action which has been taken and 
the progress which has been made under the Plan to date 
discloses the following:

a. The School Board and the Superintendent of Schools 
and his staff are carrying out the program relating to 
teachers and other professional personnel which is set 
forth on pages 1 and 2 of the Plan and which was adopted 
by the School Board.

b. On March 23, 1966 Mr. Vincent J. Thomas, Chair­
man of the School Board, and Mr. E. L. Lamberth, Super­
intendent of Schools, appeared on a special school television 
program which was telecast to all teachers and other pro­
fessional personnel in the Norfolk City Public School Sys­
tem and explained the Plan and the necessity of coopera­
tion by the teachers and other professional personnel in the 
administration of the Plan. Copies of the remarks of 
Messrs. Thomas and Lamberth are attached hereto. Also



App. 128

attached hereto is a copy of the news article pertaining 
to this telecast which appeared in the March 24, 1966 issue 
of “The Virginian-Pilot”.

c. On March 23, 1966 Mr. W alter W. Brewster, Direc­
tor of Personnel, sent to all teachers in the System a memo­
randum requesting them to advise him if they were willing 
to teach on a factuly presently predominantly of the op­
posite race. Copies of this memorandum and the directive 
to Principals to distribute the memorandums are attached 
hereto.

d. The Director of Personnel and his staff have re­
viewed the records of approximately 1,000 teachers, prin­
cipals and other professional personnel and have conducted 
interviews with approximately 300 of this personnel for the 
purpose of selecting those who are qualified and suitable for 
transfers and assignments to schools in which the majority 
of the faculty members are of a race different from theirs.

e. The Director of Personnel and his staff are continu­
ing their review of records and of their interviews with 
teachers, principals and other professional personnel for the 
purpose of selecting those who are qualified and suitable 
for transfers and assignments to schools in which the 
majority of the factuly members are of a race different 
from theirs.

f. In the summer of 1965 eight principals, thirteen 
teachers and the Director of Pupil Personnel attended the 
Biracial Counseling Institute held at Purdue University 
which was sponsored by the United States Office of Edu­
cation under the Civil Rights Act. A copy of the brochure 
announcing this Institute and its purpose is attached hereto.

During the school year 1965-66 these 22 persons worked 
with their colleagues in the System carrying out the pur­



App. 129

poses of the institute, and in the summer of 1966 they will 
return to the Institute at Purdue University to report on 
their achievements during the 1965-66 school year and to 
continue their training.

g. Various other teachers have attended Institutes at 
other Universities which were similar to the Institute held 
at Purdue University.

h. During the summers of 1965 and 1966 the System has 
participated in both the Office of Economic Opportunity 
programs and programs under Public Law 89-10, and these 
programs have been used to further biracial staffing by giv­
ing experience to those who would help to carry out the 
Plan during the school years.

i. The Superintendent of Schools has appeared before 
the Norfolk Council on Human Relations, the City-wide 
Council of PTA s and other civic groups and explained the 
Plan and urged the cooperation of the public in the adminis­
tration of it. The Chairman of the School Board has made 
similar appearances for the same purpose.

j. The School Board and the Superintendent of Schools 
and his staff are complying with the provisions of the Plan 
relating to children.

k. On March 31, 1966 a copy of the Plan, with copies 
of the maps attached, was published in “The Ledger-Star”, 
a newspaper having a general circulation in the City of 
Norfolk. A copy of this publication is attached hereto.

l. Although not required by the Plan, on April 9, 1966 
a copy of the Plan, with copies of the maps attached, was 
published in the “Journal and Guide”, a newspaper pub­
lished in the City of Norfolk by and having a wide circula­
tion among Negroes. A copy of this publication is at­
tached hereto.



App. 130

m. Copies of the maps attached to the Plan have been 
placed in and are available for inspection at the office of the 
School Administration and at the offices of the principals 
of the public schools of the City.

n. On April 6, 1966 a copy of the Plan, without copies 
of the maps attached, was distributed to every child in at­
tendance in the public schools of the City, for transmission 
to his parent or guardian. A sample of the copies distributed 
is attached hereto.

o. Copies of the Plan, like those distributed on April 6, 
1966, have been and will continue to be distributed to 
children, and their parents and guardians, who were not in 
attendance on April 6, 1966 and who thereafter were or be­
come in attendance or are planning to enter the System.

p. On April 13, 1966 choice of school form for the 1966- 
67 school year were distributed to all children, in attendance 
in the public schools of the City, whose parents or guardians 
are required by the Plan to choose a school. Subsequent to 
April 13, 1966 choice of school forms have been distributed 
to such children who were not in attendance on April 13, 
1966 and distribution of such forms to all additional chil­
dren whose parents or guardians are required by the Plan 
to choose a school will continue. A sample of the type of 
forms distributed is attached hereto.

q. As of May 26, 1966 approximately 50,000 choice of 
school forms for the 1966-67 school year had been dis­
tributed, completed, executed and returned to the School 
Administration. By resolution adopted on May 26, 1966, 
a certified copy of which is attached hereto, the School 
Board assigned all of the approximately 50,000 children 
with respect to whom these forms were executed to the 
schools which their parents or guardians selected.



App. 131

r. All of these children and their parents or guardians 
have been notified of the schools which the children will 
attend during the 1966-67 school year. A sample of the 
form of notification used is attached hereto.

s. All options for which the Plan provides and which 
have been exercised have been honored.

2. That a certified copy of this resolution, with copies 
of the attachments hereto, shall be filed with the United 
States District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, 
Norfolk Division.

Adopted:
July 19, 1966 
Ayes 5 Nays 0 
Absent 2

A TR U E COPY, T E S T E :
/ s /  N eil  G. L. Boothby 
Neil G. L. Boothby 
Clerk of The School Board 

of the City of Norfolk

[seal]

Remarks of V incent J. T homas, Chairman of T he 
School Board, on T elevision to all T eachers 
and other P rofessional P ersonnel, March 23, 
1966.

I am privileged to be able to take the opportunity of talk­
ing to you today on behalf of the Norfolk School Board 
on the new desegregation plan which was adopted by the 
board at its meeting on March 17 which was approved by 
the representatives of the Negro plaintiffs and the attorneys 
of the United States Department of Justice, and ordered by 
the judge of the District Court.



App. 132

While this plan further refines and expands the already 
existing Freedom of Choice plan for pupil assignment, it 
also contains for the first time policies governing the de­
segregation of our faculty and staff, and it is about these 
new policies that Mr. Lamberth and I wish to speak to you 
today.

The preamble to the new plan states the following:

“The School Board of the City of Norfolk recog­
nizes its responsibility to employ, assign, promote, and 
discharge teachers and other professional personnel of 
the Norfolk City Public School System without regard 
to race or color. It further recognizes its obligation to 
take all reasonable steps to eliminate existing' racial 
segregation of faculty that has resulted from the past 
operation of a dual school system based upon race 
or color.”

It is the intent of the School Board and the administration 
to implement this policy promptly and with all good faith, 
and in order to do so successfully we need and must have 
your help and your cooperation. While this forward step 
will certainly pose new challenges to all of you it also 
carries with it the seeds of an opportunity to better our sys­
tem for the ultimate benefit of all of our children, and it 
has been the experience of this School Board and of other 
Norfolk School Boards that our teachers have not and will 
not shrink from a new challenge.

The success or failure of these new policies rests squarely 
with you of the professional staff of the system. The School 
Board and the citizens of Norfolk are confident that you as 
always will do your part. The future of education for our 
children demands that we succeed.



App. 133

And now Mr. Lamberth will give you some information 
a little more in detail about how it is proposed that these 
new policies be implemented.

Remarks o f  Superintendent of Schools E. L. Lam­
berth t o  all T eachers via E ducational T ele­
vision, March 23, 1966.

The purpose of this program today, as Mr. Thomas has 
stated, is to talk with you about the Plan for the Desegrega­
tion of the Norfolk Public Schools signed by the Federal 
District Judge on last Thursday and agreed upon by repre­
sentatives of the School Board, of the plaintiffs in the court 
case, and of the Justice Department of the United States 
of America.

As stated in the plan, copies will be available to send to 
the homes of pupils and will be kept available in the school 
buildings. It was impossible to make them available to you 
today, before the first printing is completed.

Therefore, it was essential that you be called together 
to hear this explanation of the plan so that you could answer 
questions both now and as you distribute copies of the plan 
later.

It is true, I believe, that, even as the success of our in­
structional program depends largely upon your work as 
individual teachers, so the administration of this plan and 
how well it serves our community will be up to the teachers 
and the principals.

This plan has two major divisions. The first division is 
entitled Teachers and other Professional Personnel and the 
second, Children.

The greatest difference between this plan and any other 
under which we have operated is that it does deal with em­
ploying, assigning, promoting, and discharging teachers.



App. 134

In everyday language the section dealing with professional 
personnel states three major principles.

These principles provide:

First, that the School Board of the City of Norfolk 
will employ, assign, promote, and discharge professional 
personnel solely on the basis of qualifications and without 
regard to race or color. Having known of our evaluation 
procedures in the past, I am sure you have no concern about 
dismissals except for the unqualified teacher.

Second, that the Superintendent and his staff are to take 
affirmative steps to have both presently employed profes­
sional personnel as well as new teachers, who are qualified 
and suitable, accept positions in situations where their ac­
ceptance will diminish the racial imbalance now existing 
in faculty assignment. In this particularly we must have 
your help or it can never be done properly.

Three times the plan emphasizes “qualified and suitable.” 
In determining this with your help the Personnel Depart­
ment under Mr. Brewster and Dr. Ray will be both profes­
sional and free of prejudice. In helping them to do it, you 
must be no less.

Third, we must inform prospective teachers of the plan 
and of our non-racial personnel policies. This is being done 
at the present time.

Soon, and certainly by January 1, 1967, all new appli­
cants seeking positions will be required to present the results 
of the National Teachers Examination. In so far as pos­
sible, positions will be filled by those who present this score 
as part of their proof of competence to teach. They will 
not be required of any presently employed.

No one, now employed, who is competent in his assign­
ment need be anxious or concerned.



App. 135

However, our evaluation procedures, which have greatly 
improved in recent years, must continue to improve. New 
objective measures of competence must be employed and 
subjective rating must be more and more skillfully used with 
complete fairness.

In the section dealing with children, the change provides 
more schools for parents to choose for their child. Just as 
before, choices are made by parents, except that now more 
parents choose, since more schools are grouped with others 
in larger areas than before.

As the rules, which each principal and teacher must fol­
low to administer this plan, are distributed to you, special 
care must be taken that they are followed. Your compe­
tence will be tested by the accuracy with which you follow, 
without exception, the instructions you receive. In the past 
some of us have handled choice forms very haphazardly. 
This must end immediately.

As Mr. Thomas has said, we can count on professionals 
to do this job and to want to be judged by their qualifica­
tions only.

If there are those among you who are concerned about 
our competing for teaching talent under this plan, may I re­
assure you by relating what has been told us—that other 
school systems will be operating under similar plans devised 
in cooperation with Federal agencies. Currently, press re­
leases are indicating the truth of this.

Already, the Personnel Department is seking to fill va­
cancies and arrange transfers where quality can be main­
tained and teachers are “qualified and suitable.” More than 
ever you must cooperate with our personnel staff and as 
far as possible have your personal preferences contribute 
to the welfare of the entire school system.

May I emphasize again that this plan reserves to the ad­



App. 136

ministration and the School Board the determination of 
who is “qualified and suitable” to fill a particular position.

More than ever each assignment will be carefully studied 
and each will be made on an educational basis.

As I have often said, many of our professional personnel 
are very competent, very adequate in one assignment, where­
as, the same person might not be suitable at all in any other 
school or another class. In the future as in the past all 
these factors will be taken into consideration before any as­
signment is made.

I know that any plan such as this receives mixed reac­
tions from both school people and the general public. One 
of your most important tasks is to see that your comments 
and reactions help rather than hinder the efforts being made 
to “get on with our plans for more quality education for 
every child.”



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